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06.17.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 16th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 12:42 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

tessier Obviously the Linux OS is faster than XP, particularly at boot-up and shutdown, but the simplicity of it all is also very appealing and with the extra storage you get from sticking with Linux, this is definitely the version we’d recommend – you can always install XP yourself after all. Jun 16 00:16
tessier http://www.trustedreviews.com/notebo… Jun 16 00:18
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-dmwaters-{global notice} Good day all, I need to do some quick rerouting, this should not take long. Jun 16 03:29
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ZiggyFish good afternoon Jun 16 04:55
schestowitz Hey, <ZiggyFish> Jun 16 05:49
ZiggyFish schestowitz: hello. hows are you Jun 16 05:49
schestowitz Better than Microsoft and Novell. :-) Jun 16 05:50
ZiggyFish lol Jun 16 05:51
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schestowitz Miguel and the Boys bring more Mono to OOo… http://tirania.org/blog/archiv… … with this bridge, even some OOo tasks could become dependent on Novell’s Mono. Jun 16 06:28
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tessier We need a SCO Deathwatch Jun 16 07:28
tessier And have a sort of betting pool on when SCO will officially cease operations Jun 16 07:29
tessier I don’t see them possibly being bought as they have too many liabilities and no assets Jun 16 07:29
schestowitz Hmmm… Jun 16 07:29
schestowitz I saw a comment from PJ yesterday about SCO spending all that’s left after a frivolous lawsuit. The SCO stories have become dull. It’s just hotel bills and such stuff. Jun 16 07:30
tessier Maybe one for MS also but it would have to relate to their first money losing year or something similar. They won’t cease operations for a very long time. Jun 16 07:30
tessier Yeah Jun 16 07:30
tessier What’s the next major even in the SCO trial? Jun 16 07:30
tessier The judge is currently deliberating something isn’t he? Jun 16 07:30
schestowitz Well… Jun 16 07:30
tessier I forget which SCO case that was Jun 16 07:31
schestowitz Novell/SCO is due to be announced. Jun 16 07:31
ZiggyFish it’s a shame to see SCO die Jun 16 07:31
tessier I know there are several things ongoing and several things waiting as dependencies on SCO/Novell Jun 16 07:31
schestowitz There was another documented cr*pped out last week, unexpectedly. Jun 16 07:31
tessier ZiggyFish: meh…I’m looking forward to being out of SCO’s misery. Jun 16 07:31
tessier It’s been going on for years. I can’t believe I have been following it this long. Jun 16 07:31
schestowitz I think that looking at SCO at this stage is almost a waste of time, but… Jun 16 07:31
schestowitz (Bear in mind PJ wants it to linger on and waits for {the fat lady to sing}^TM) Jun 16 07:32
schestowitz There’s the issue of Novell inheriting Linux, which could in turn be used by Microsoft. Maybe. Jun 16 07:32
ZiggyFish Linux cannot be inherited Jun 16 07:33
schestowitz Unless Microsoft makes use of imaginary property. Jun 16 07:33
ZiggyFish even then. all distributions need to do is remove that software (Linux is owned by the community) Jun 16 07:34
schestowitz <tessier>, Groklaw has static pages for SCO timeline/s. <ZiggyFish>, Microsoft plays law now. Marketing and law topped by vicious business practices. It’s the only thing it understands. Jun 16 07:35
ZiggyFish schestowitz: then the EU plays law as well ;) Jun 16 07:36
ZiggyFish http://news.cnet.com/8301-10787… Jun 16 07:37
tessier The SCO bankruptcy timeline shows a lot of applications for compensation as pending Jun 16 07:38
tessier Does that mean those people haven’t been paid yet? Doesn’t that mean Novell could still get their money? Jun 16 07:38
schestowitz Well, play and enforce are not the same thing.  Government official: “The government is not trying to destroy Microsoft, it’s simply seeking to compel Microsoft to obey the law. It’s quite revealing that Mr. Gates equates the two.” Jun 16 07:38
tessier Or will those people have to be paid before Novell somehow? Jun 16 07:39
schestowitz Whose money might Novell get? SCO is broke and it spends all that’s left. Jun 16 07:39
tessier It isn’t broke yet as they still have a building to operate out of and lawyers doing their bidding Jun 16 07:40
tessier When all that stops I will believe that they are broke. Jun 16 07:40
ZiggyFish Novell wont’s get any money (AFAIK there is no novel products in SCO products) Jun 16 07:40
tessier They are spending the license money they owe Novell Jun 16 07:40
tessier ZiggyFish: I thought when it was ruled that Novell has SYSV not SCO the SCO Source license money came into dispute? Jun 16 07:41
schestowitz By the way, <ZiggyFish>,  Charles Cooper is a bit of a troll sometimes. He adds drama. Jun 16 07:41
ZiggyFish tessier: haven’t been following the SCO, story Jun 16 07:41
schestowitz <tessier>, I am not too sure. I don’t know the details too well. Jun 16 07:42
ZiggyFish schestowitz: yeah, but his points are still valid Jun 16 07:42
schestowitz It depends a lot of perspective. Law too is just man-made ‘rules’. Usually, those who are wealthy write those rules. Jun 16 07:44
schestowitz I judge his writings based on previous things he wrote about MS-EU. Jun 16 07:44
ZiggyFish true Jun 16 07:45
schestowitz He is one of the seniors there and CNET is close to Microsoft. Even closer now. Paul Allen ownership, Microsoft deal, then Yahoo. Jun 16 07:47
ZiggyFish so who at CNET isn’t close to Microsoft Jun 16 07:48
schestowitz Good question., Even Asay isn’t distant from them. Jun 16 07:50
schestowitz Maybe a few blogger might sometimes criticise Microsoft Tim Tiemann is there, but he hardly ever blogs. Jun 16 07:51
ZiggyFish my point is, if there is no one on our side take their comments and turn it into a comment that benefits us Jun 16 08:00
schestowitz Who is “us”?> Jun 16 08:02
ZiggyFish the Linux community Jun 16 08:02
schestowitz hate writing long articles. How about you? In fact, I think that going forward I’ll just blog more. PJ stopped writing articles as well. Jun 16 08:03
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mark_antony_kent hi Jun 16 08:40
schestowitz Hey, <mark_antony_kent> Jun 16 08:42
mark_antony_kent gr33tz :-) (okay, no more 1337 h4x0r speak hehe) Jun 16 08:43
schestowitz Well, we use shorthands though. I’ve just posted something new about Mono. Novell wants it everywhere on the desktop. Jun 16 08:43
mark_antony_kent They’re very much persuing a proprietary vendor model.  One has to consider that Novell might be a Microsoft experiment as a possible future for MS – should Novell be successful, then MS will buy them and a migration to SuSE with Patents will ensue. Jun 16 08:45
schestowitz The press will soon be filled with a lot of Novell PR and OpenSUSE announcements. There’s probably need for education about the problems associated with SUSE due to Novell’s swpatents deal. Jun 16 08:45
schestowitz Yes, that too. But Microsoft will mix both, just as it did with FAST (corruption investigation over there ATM). It realises that Windows’ future is uncertain and some will never embrace it. Jun 16 08:47
schestowitz See http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/0… . Similar situation with Nokia (Symbian vs Maemo+Qt+GTK) Jun 16 08:47
mark_antony_kent As per my message to Mitch (don’t know if  you saw it), the destkop world is dead – it’s a legacy technology, the next generation stuff is all about appliances and mobility, Microsoft haven’t really covered either.  I’ll check your link. Jun 16 08:48
mark_antony_kent Ah, yes – I think Ari made a mistake there, to be honest.  I think that he’s genuinely trying to explore ways to make Nokia more open, just as I am at my $employer, but some posts are better left unposted! Jun 16 08:50
schestowitz Lots of promises from the Windows Mobile people recently (they didn’t even hire a ‘voice’, e.g. analyst). They are still nowhere, but they seem to have an insider in Vodafone now. Jun 16 08:51
schestowitz Bear in mind that Microsoft’s head of the mobile unit quit the company some months ago. He was there for almost 10 years, IIRC, so it’s a major blow that’s very telling. Jun 16 08:51
mark_antony_kent Voda are a very large company, so it will always be possible to find someone who’ll stake their next bonus on a linkage with a particular compony.  MS still have a lot of cash, and middle-managers are desperately constrained because of the way organisations form, so outside partnerships often look like a better way of getting a bonus “this” year. Jun 16 08:52
schestowitz It wasn’t a post. He spoke about it publicly. Then again, he was demonised by a journalist and expresses his disappointment in this ‘damage control’ blog post. Jun 16 08:53
schestowitz As I understand it (I’m not sure anymore because of a recent report), Microsoft’s former head of the Mobile Division/Unit will be running Vodafone, so you probably can foresee the impact. Jun 16 08:54
mark_antony_kent I’ve spoken at the same events as Ari in the past, and have found him to be an honourable character.  I think the idea he’s trying to get across is that businesses are struggling to migrate from their current business models onto new ones based around open-source.  I still think he made a grave error presenting this, though. Jun 16 08:54
mark_antony_kent Ahhh – that’s interesting.  This is a direct attack on Android, I think.  I doubt it will be effective, though.  The google bus is too big to stop. Jun 16 08:55
schestowitz Yes. Jun 16 08:55
schestowitz I believe that Trolltech was about stealing parts of the rivals’ stack. Jun 16 08:55
schestowitz Think of Sun’s grab of an ingredient of LAMP (MySQL). Jun 16 08:55
mark_antony_kent I think of the present situation as a graph with two lines, one increasing, and one decreasing over time.  As the open-source “increasing” line has become visible to the decreasing proprietary line, then the proprietary companies need to take action in order to survive.  As the lines approach each other, due to cross soon, if not already, then it seems inevitable that major open-source projects will be bought Jun 16 08:58
schestowitz Well, Qt was lunch money for a company as large as Nokia. It remains ton be seen what hey will do with it. Jun 16 09:00
schestowitz (or *to* it) Jun 16 09:00
mark_antony_kent I suspect that they’ll leave it alone for now.  It’s not mainstream to Nokia, who are predominantly a hardware vendor. Jun 16 09:01
schestowitz Yes, but to sell their hardware they need to ensure other offers (e.g. HTC+OHA) don’t eat their dessert. Jun 16 09:02
schestowitz Apple and Sun too have some great hardware, but it’s expensive and some people go for the lower-end PCs and servers. Jun 16 09:03
mark_antony_kent True, but Nokia’s hardware is mainly mass-market consumer, whereas Apple and Sun are both niche players – hmm, not entirely true, Apple have managed to go mainstream with the iPod, but nothing else yet.  So far… Jun 16 09:05
schestowitz Then there’s the software. Sun offers a place for Windows and Linux as well while Apple does its flings with Microsoft at times (maybe due to practical needs). Nokia may be similar in the sense that its bread and butter (Symbian) isn’t enough for everything. Can Symbian do tablets? Jun 16 09:08
mark_antony_kent Symbian started out on Psion machines – I’ve still got a Psion5mx which runs a late version of EPOC which is the previous name for Symbian.  Symbian remains single-user and proprietary, though. Jun 16 09:12
schestowitz That’s no way to develop software. It’s too expensive. One has to wonder what keeps it floating other than large investments and universality. Windows Mobile has its share of pains too (growing pains). Jun 16 09:14
schestowitz Twice in the past month or so Nokia praised mobile Linux, but it was probably thinking about its tablets. Jun 16 09:15
mark_antony_kent Personally, I think that Symbian’s days are numbered – there’s no long-term value to developing your own OS. Jun 16 09:15
schestowitz How much (%-wise) do they have in Symbian. Didn’t Nokia have like 60% in it? Maybe more? As Symbian loses market share (assuming that happens), its funding will shrivel. Jun 16 09:19
mark_antony_kent I think that Nokia were the major holder.  Psion and Ericsson were the other two, but Psion pulled out. Jun 16 09:20
mark_antony_kent fyi, According to Google, MS have paid 18 dividends to shareholders since 2002, from 9c to 11c/share. Jun 16 09:21
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mark_antony_kent Mornin’ [H]omer Jun 16 09:23
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mark_antony_kent Some names just don’t stick :-) Jun 16 09:23
schestowitz Is Psion still in existence? Jun 16 09:23
mark_antony_kent http://www.psionteklogix.com/ Jun 16 09:24
schestowitz I’m not sure it’s him. Actually,  I’ll check. Jun 16 09:24
mark_antony_kent ah, pse do… Jun 16 09:24
schestowitz Yes, it’s him. Jun 16 09:24
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schestowitz Palm too is moving to Linux, hopefully away from Microsoft slavery. Jun 16 09:25
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schestowitz But Palm worked for years on its own PalmOS-compatible stack and now there’s LiMo and OHA around. Poor Palm… I still have their products. Jun 16 09:26
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*[H]omer waves to mark_antony_ken1 Jun 16 09:29
*[H]omer waves to schestowitz Jun 16 09:29
[H]omer Yes, it’s me Jun 16 09:29
schestowitz The FreeNode staff talked about disruption cause by a (script) “kiddie”. I wondered if that’s related. Jun 16 09:32
[H]omer lemme check the logs to see what happened Jun 16 09:33
mark_antony_ken1 hi [H]omer Jun 16 09:34
mark_antony_ken1 I appear to have had my T changed to a 1 :-) Jun 16 09:34
schestowitz Server error? Jun 16 09:35
mark_antony_ken1 maybe, or some timeout of some kind.  I use the linux kernel profiling to mix 2 adsl lines, so I think sometimes links perhaps get chopped if there’s no apparent activity.  I’ve not found out how to hold them up, and whilst I’ve put up a few permanent routes to things, some things do drop out. Jun 16 09:36
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schestowitz See the new comment on the Novell item: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/… Jun 16 09:38
schestowitz In short, it’s likely that, as you said moments ago, Microsoft can experiment with Novell and put its APIs where it needs them. Jun 16 09:38
mark_antony_kent MS understand large corporate politics extremely well.  They know that there’s always someone who will be blind to future consequences if their bonus is going to come in. Jun 16 09:39
schestowitz Who might this be specifically? Jun 16 09:40
mark_antony_kent Oh, just middle managers generally.  The further up the stack you get, the higher the bonuses get, so the more money there is at stake.  What gets lost in HR analyses of these situations is that the bonus system has created a generation of senior middle managers who are entirely focused on the complete short-term, because that’s how they’re bonused.  The best thing which could happen to foss would be for the Jun 16 09:43
schestowitz Hovsepian received a bonus shortly after signing the deal, IIRC. Jun 16 09:44
schestowitz I can’t recall the details exactly (we have this documented), so I won’t say anything further… could otherwise be defamatory. Jun 16 09:44
mark_antony_kent he did, yes.  rather proves my point.  When one’s got (not me!) the possibility of a 6-figure bonus, then long-term issues probably look a lot less sexy. Jun 16 09:45
[H]omer Hmm, I see what’s going on. Lotta netsplits on Freenode. At 1.25AM the netsplit caused me to be booted, and my client failed to ident in time, so I lost the nick until a few minutes ago when I reclaimed it. Jun 16 09:46
schestowitz People quickly forget all those small and supposedly uninteresting ‘details’ after the dust settles. There’s also the danger that Novell apologists will outweigh the oppositions. I sometimes see characterisations like “Zealots” and “conspiracy theorists” used to defend what Novell did. Jun 16 09:46
mark_antony_kent [H]omer: does freenode allow the registering of nicks? Jun 16 09:47
[H]omer mark_antony_kent, yes indeed Jun 16 09:47
[H]omer type “/msg NickServ help” Jun 16 09:48
schestowitz To go further, complacency is a huge risk. What if it was /assumed/ that swpatents are here to stay (everywhere) and that Mono is too prevalent to be eradicated. The same goes for Moonlight, whose acceptance drives prevalence (Web infection, buh-bye open WWW). Jun 16 09:48
[H]omer I’ve just woken up. Need coffee :) Back in 5 Jun 16 09:49
mark_antony_kent schestowitz: I agree, there’re big stakes being played for here.  This is the real test of the GPL, legal cases are not, in the grand scheme of things, that critical – whether mono, silverlight, xps, ooxml and swpatents can be beaten off are the real test.  It’s a huge game! Jun 16 09:49
mark_antony_kent [H]omer: okay Jun 16 09:49
schestowitz Novell has essentially become a ally, only obliged to both sides in this case but serving also as a bridge. Jun 16 09:52
schestowitz Novell is not alone though and it’s a relief that no more Linux vendors surrendered for so long. SJVN told me that he thought everyone would sign a deal within a year. Jun 16 09:53
schestowitz Remember Corel? Same thing. People forgot about Corel though. Microsoft has, in some sense, paid them to stop competing. Jun 16 09:54
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mark_antony_kent The Corel thing was pretty awful.  It seems surprising that competition authorities in Canada didn’t take that one up.  In fact, perhaps they still could? Jun 16 09:55
schestowitz I wasn’t watching anything at the time, but I was sent some information by a reader who is desperate to tell her case. Jun 16 09:57
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schestowitz Bear in mind that at the time Corel said it would stay committed to Linux. You know, like Novell said that software patents were not the centre of the deal (“we agree to disagree”) and that it was all about “interoperability”. Then, people forget, and things evolve. Jun 16 09:58
schestowitz Hovsepain said this just 2-3 weeks ago: “Our partnership with Microsoft continues to expand.” Jun 16 09:58
schestowitz Not “continues”, mind you but “continues to _expand_.” Jun 16 09:59
mark_antony_ken1 The Microsoft and Novell guys put on a show where the Microsoft chap claimed that Novell supported (Microsoft’s patent claims), and the Novell chap stood up and claimed that he didn’t.  It was very well rehearsed, and I’d be surprised if it had really fooled anyone, but what do people recall about the event? Jun 16 09:59
schestowitz They have a FAQ up. The OpenSUSE folks seem to love it. Jun 16 10:02
schestowitz It’s up on novell.com, so you really know it’s objective. *rolls eyes* Jun 16 10:03
mark_antony_ken1 hehe Jun 16 10:04
mark_antony_ken1 Ahh b*gger … blasted filling fallen off back of a wisdom tooth again! Jun 16 10:05
mark_antony_ken1 sh1t. Jun 16 10:05
[H]omer Yeah, I know what that’s like. I spent £600 on dental work last year. Every filling had to be replaced Jun 16 10:07
mark_antony_ken1 yuk!  It’s not cheap, and it’s not pleasant either… Jun 16 10:08
schestowitz I dread the day when I’ll have to get fillings. I’m still doing alright. Jun 16 10:08
[H]omer I don’t exactly have Hollywood teeth, if you know what I mean Jun 16 10:08
mark_antony_ken1 I probably wouldn’t have had any or many, but for a dentist a few years ago who tried to get me to have fillings I didn’t need… it put me off dentists for a few years, which was a big mistake. Jun 16 10:08
[H]omer same here Jun 16 10:09
[H]omer Especially that last one Jun 16 10:09
schestowitz Look at the bright side. US justice has no teeth at all. Not claws, either. Jun 16 10:09
mark_antony_ken1 hehe ! Jun 16 10:09
[H]omer I look forward to dentures, then I can forget about dentists for good Jun 16 10:10
[H]omer :) Jun 16 10:10
mark_antony_ken1 Ah, well, yeah… in the end… Jun 16 10:10
[H]omer Who’s stupid idea was it to place nerve endings *inside* a tooth anyway? Jun 16 10:11
[H]omer God has a sick sense of humour Jun 16 10:11
PetoKraus :) Jun 16 10:11
mark_antony_ken1 Nah, it’s all Darwin’s fault.  If it hadn’t been for him, I’d’ve been intelligently designed! Jun 16 10:11
[H]omer lol Jun 16 10:12
[H]omer “It’s the engineers fault” Jun 16 10:12
[H]omer Isn’t it always Jun 16 10:12
mark_antony_ken1 Absolutely.  Never trust an engineer. Jun 16 10:12
[H]omer Never pay them either …. (bastards) :) Jun 16 10:13
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mark_antony_ken1 Um, I seem to have left again. Jun 16 10:13
[H]omer I hate it when that happens Jun 16 10:14
schestowitz No, that’s Mark’s ghost. Jun 16 10:14
[H]omer dammit – I’ve been without my laptop for so long, I’ve forgotten how to use the smallish keyboard Jun 16 10:14
[H]omer Typing is down to about one word a minute Jun 16 10:14
[H]omer Did I mention my laptop fiasco? Jun 16 10:15
[H]omer That’s quite a story Jun 16 10:15
[H]omer Basically … it was overheating, so I sent it into Acer. This was at the beginning of February Jun 16 10:16
[H]omer 4 weeks later they sent in back … unrepaired Jun 16 10:16
[H]omer So I sent it in again Jun 16 10:16
[H]omer This time they repaired it, but the DVD didn’t work and the graphics were messed up Jun 16 10:17
[H]omer So I sent it in again! Jun 16 10:17
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[H]omer This time the sound didn’t work, and the CPU temp sensor was broken Jun 16 10:17
[H]omer So I sent in in *again* Jun 16 10:17
[H]omer Finally after four attempts, 12 motherboard exchanges, and about 3 months, they managed to repair it Jun 16 10:18
[H]omer Gah!!! Jun 16 10:18
mark_antony_kent 12 exchanges?  that must be some kind of record… Jun 16 10:19
[H]omer No kidding Jun 16 10:19
[H]omer Oh, and I had to *pay*, as it was out of warranty Jun 16 10:19
[H]omer £350 IIRC Jun 16 10:19
[H]omer Working fine now though Jun 16 10:20
PetoKraus fingers crossed. Jun 16 10:20
[H]omer Although I dropped it last week, and bits came flying off the DVD cover Jun 16 10:21
[H]omer Haven’t found all the bits yet :( Jun 16 10:21
schestowitz They pulled an XBox360. Jun 16 10:21
[H]omer There’s an LED cover missing (tiny bit of translucent plastic) Jun 16 10:21
[H]omer Ya. Actually I’d *hate* to be an exb0rks customer Jun 16 10:22
[H]omer What a pain that’d be Jun 16 10:22
[H]omer They have to pay too Jun 16 10:22
[H]omer How’s that class action suite going? Jun 16 10:22
[H]omer The server’s taking a dump. Damn, I should really re-schedule that for another time. Monday morning is not ideal. Things slow as Hell ATM Jun 16 10:26
mark_antony_kent on phone… Jun 16 10:26
schestowitz Is there a class action? Jun 16 10:27
[H]omer Two … AFAIK Jun 16 10:27
schestowitz I know about the Vista class action, but XBox still ongoing? Jun 16 10:27
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schestowitz Not a word about it in the press for many months, if true. Jun 16 10:27
schestowitz Mark’s ghosting is scary. Jun 16 10:28
[H]omer Here’s one: http://www.informationweek.com/news/sof… Jun 16 10:28
schestowitz Homer, that’s from last year. Jun 16 10:28
[H]omer I’m surprised there isn’t one specifically for the overheating issue, especially as the Vole has now admitted fault. These both seem to be about scratched discs. Jun 16 10:29
schestowitz I watch Microsoft closely and I assure you it has been hush-hash. Maybe it’s a small lawsuit? I really don’t know Jun 16 10:29
[H]omer Isn’t it still ongoing though? Jun 16 10:29
schestowitz To be honest with you, if Microsoft pulls some quiet settlement (bail) outside the court, that wouldn’t surprise me. The publicity hit is  very costly. Recall Iowa. Jun 16 10:30
[H]omer I think the Vole’s “settlement” was to commit to spending more money on warranty repairs Jun 16 10:31
schestowitz It took them a bloody year just to acknowledge that they had a design problem (the $1,000,000,000 charge). Days beforehand, criminal Robert Bach did some inside-trading. He was never probed or punished because he’s rich. Jun 16 10:31
[H]omer hm, typical Jun 16 10:31
schestowitz Perhaps that was the settlement. I don’t watch it closely. The XBox (and 360) is a bad toy that cost the company billions. Zune is in the headlines now because of the Canada reach, but it’s pathetic really. It became synonymous with ugly and defective. Jun 16 10:32
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schestowitz Microsoft has not had any good news in ages. I said this before, esp. in recent weeks. It’s like nothing’s moving there. It was _VERY_ different a year ago  It was more vibrant. Jun 16 10:33
schestowitz I sometimes jokingly think that it’s true that they just concentrate on patenting now. Jun 16 10:33
schestowitz Perhaps the developers just write write write instead of develop. Jun 16 10:34
[H]omer I thought MS “developers” were just “Purchase Controllers” (i.e. assimilation agents) Jun 16 10:35
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schestowitz It is true. Jun 16 10:37
schestowitz Have you seen the following post? Wait.. I’ll get the URL.. Jun 16 10:37
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/14… Jun 16 10:38
[H]omer I mean the Vole doesn’t actually “write” anything … except FUD of course Jun 16 10:38
schestowitz Doug sent me the pointer, I did the text. Watch it closely and be amazed (well, *you* wouldn’t, some would). Jun 16 10:39
[H]omer Yes, WRT “Surface” … well Microsoft claim “innovation” because they … wait for it  … *licensed* the technology from the inventor Jun 16 10:42
[H]omer So “innovate” == “license” now Jun 16 10:43
[H]omer LOL Jun 16 10:43
[H]omer Then there’s this whole thing of them trying to patent human behaviour. Jeez! Jun 16 10:44
schestowitz I didn’t know they ‘licensed’ anything. What was the idea anyway? I can only guess. Jun 16 10:44
schestowitz An apparatus for input using motion of hands? Jun 16 10:44
[H]omer Multi-touch screens AFAIK Jun 16 10:44
[H]omer I think Engadget had the original story. Lemme find it Jun 16 10:44
schestowitz What about multi-touch. Neanderthals too could draw with both hands, so we have prior art methinks. Jun 16 10:44
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[H]omer Here’s a pointer: http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/200… Jun 16 10:47
[H]omer “Actually, while Apple I’m sure has many patents on the iPhone, the multitouch stuff has been around for awhile, most prominantly from a guy named Jeff Han and his company Perceptive Pixel.” Jun 16 10:48
schestowitz Yes. I cite 2 or 3 cases of prior art (with Linux even) in the pointer to an IRC discussion (at http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/1… ). It’s not new. Jun 16 10:50
[H]omer “Multi-touch technology dates back to 1982″ : http://en.wikipedia.org/wi… Jun 16 10:52
[H]omer Microsoft “innovation” my ass Jun 16 10:53
schestowitz Xerox maybe? Glyn Moody said he was shown it back then. Jun 16 10:53
schestowitz Surface/Milan was a Gates pet project, you know? Fantasy world for the Gates Press. Jun 16 10:54
[H]omer Has anyone actually bought one of the Vole’s $10,000 coffee tables? LOL! Jun 16 10:54
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schestowitz Microsoft wanted the project killed, but Gates insisted otherwise. Jun 16 10:54
schestowitz Good question. The only target ‘audience’ is some hotel lobbies and now Microsoft brags about a deployment in a casino or two… maybe more. It ought to make you happy. They burn cash to buy public perception that Microsoft does exciting things. Jun 16 10:55
[H]omer Yeah, Gates is a real “visionary”. He’s quite the “Nostradamus” too. His predictions are infamously inaccurate. Jun 16 10:56
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[H]omer I have to go do a job. Back in about half an hour. Jun 16 10:57
schestowitz Ballmer made a predication last week: newspapers to be gone in 10 years. Jun 16 11:00
PetoKraus haha Jun 16 11:00
mark_antony_kent Gone where? Jun 16 11:00
PetoKraus DRM! Jun 16 11:00
mark_antony_kent hehe Jun 16 11:00
PetoKraus self – imploding one-read paper. Jun 16 11:00
schestowitz Readers in Seattle P-I complained about every word coming out of Gates’ mouth going in print. Jun 16 11:00
mark_antony_kent I always knew that voice to text was a bad technology. Jun 16 11:01
schestowitz Microsoft has technology (patent) for cam-cording a TV viewer for ads and restrictions. Jun 16 11:01
schestowitz Wait until the newspaper only ‘works’ for one person. Jun 16 11:01
schestowitz And forced you to read the ads. Jun 16 11:01
mark_antony_kent Perhaps they’ll be hard-wired to your synapses Jun 16 11:02
schestowitz Well, they have a patent on monitoring people’s emotion at work. Jun 16 11:02
mark_antony_kent a dedication monitor, and a loyalty guage :-) Jun 16 11:03
schestowitz Hmm… have you seen the patent? I can get you a link summarising it. Microsoft seems to be moving from s/w to sci-fi. Jun 16 11:06
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mark_antony_kent I’ve not studied it, no Jun 16 11:07
schestowitz Other patents from Microsoft are joint to simple API stuff. Jun 16 11:09
schestowitz They produced extensive documentation that shows you how to ‘connect’ to Microsoft and what accompanying patent you must pay for (per protocol). That’s the type of scam that started with the Novell deal. Jun 16 11:10
schestowitz Increasingly, as software becomes more of a commodity to many, Microsoft realises that all it has to claim is “innovation” (even if it fakes some). It looks back at its code and tries to convert that into USPTO files that are in reality deserve the wastebasket. That’s their business plan assuming that the cost of office and Windows will fall further. Jun 16 11:12
mark_antony_kent They’re trying to squeeze their cash-cow for as long as possible. Jun 16 11:12
schestowitz Windows is already as cheap as $18 (excluding what Microsoft calls craplets). In its SEC filing, Microsoft expresses such concerns. Remember that most of Microsoft’s business units lose money, not make any. Without software as a have-no-choice-but, Microsoft lives on its fat supply. Jun 16 11:13
mark_antony_kent They are in a lot of trouble.  I think that a management change would do them a lot of good. Jun 16 11:15
schestowitz No. They have nobody suitable. Even Mary Jo Foley said so and explained why. Jun 16 11:19
mark_antony_kent They have cultural problems internally which would need fixing, but I don’t think that promoting from within the ranks will fix their problems either.  Maybe there is no fix… Jun 16 11:19
schestowitz They are stuck with a hubrid-infected man; nobody else seems to know the diverse business though. Additionally, without an element of a bully, Microsoft can’t stay relevant. It’s aggression that they thrive in. Recall OOXML FIasco^TM.. Jun 16 11:20
mark_antony_kent If they can get new management now, they might have enough cash to help them over a culture change, away from bullying and towards cooperation and competition.  Maybe. Jun 16 11:21
schestowitz What business model? Lockin for software? Jun 16 11:23
mark_antony_kent Good question… they need to move towards a model based around development and support and integration.  The death of the desktop will take them with it otherwise. Jun 16 11:24
schestowitz Bear in mind that _by all means_ they recognised this, which is why they explore expansion with consoles, portable music players, etc. They lack focus because they are having a techno-sexual rump, unable to find anything that’s profitable. XBox 360 will ultimately be the same failure its predecessor was. Jun 16 11:24
schestowitz Integration and development of *what*? These terms apply to modular bits like FOSS. Also, they seem to be fixated on Google (ad+search). Jun 16 11:25
mark_antony_kent They might’ve had some success with Xbox if they’d not tried to re-use Windows;  or tried to do their own hardware – they’re not really up to it.  Integration and so on does imply a quite new model, I agree. Jun 16 11:26
schestowitz Current model: licencing. Red Hat tax, Samba tax, cross-licensing with embedded device manufacturers. Jun 16 11:27
mark_antony_kent yup – milking the cash-cow. Jun 16 11:28
schestowitz Oracle and any other wise business (including Microsoft’s recent acquisitions) integrate their solutions with GNU/Linux. Don’t you think Microsoft is scared of it? What to do…? Shove the Windows API in there. Jun 16 11:28
mark_antony_kent If they could get away with it, it would guarantee them some income, I’m sure.  Not ethically, of course… but I’m not sure how worried about that they are. Jun 16 11:30
mark_antony_kent Your News article on Philanthropic priorities from philanthropy.com was quite amusing… Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz Gates is leaving (sort of), indicating that paperwork will replace some development and political games be necessary. Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz I’m surprised that there were no attacks on/against it.  Yet/ Jun 16 11:33
mark_antony_kent Against BG leaving, you mean? Jun 16 11:34
schestowitz No, against my post about the uncovered part of Microsoft Fundation. Jun 16 11:36
mark_antony_kent I don’t know about you, but I get the feeling that the trolls are beginning to run out of wind, at least, at the moment.  Are they being called back for some great announcement? Jun 16 11:36
schestowitz I think they resort more often to personal insults. Jun 16 11:37
mark_antony_kent Which is a good indication that they’re entirely out of technical or economic argument, and have recognised it. Jun 16 11:38
schestowitz They try to drive away the crowd. Passing on of one’s demoralisation. Jun 16 11:38
mark_antony_kent This is why the digests are good.  They leap out of google because of the large number of links and relevant content. Jun 16 11:39
schestowitz Yes, keywords and all. Jun 16 11:43
schestowitz They tried to harass you through your employer for a while (against the digests), but that stopped. Jun 16 11:43
schestowitz Intimidation is another pattern showing weakness. Have a read: Jun 16 11:44
schestowitz http://www.groklaw.net/artic… Jun 16 11:45
mark_antony_kent um, willdo Jun 16 11:45
mark_antony_kent ta Jun 16 11:45
schestowitz This one is newer (from another one who was smeared and harassed by Microsoft. He was here on IRC a fortnight ago): http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/20… “Lets see how the Microsoft machinery reacts to this set of interesting news, and see how they spin in.  How much has this fiasco cost them? What did they get out of it? A chance to be more open? Can you see a change yet?” Jun 16 11:46
mark_antony_kent I agree, no signs of any change at the moment. Jun 16 11:48
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schestowitz [Pardon the lag... just been chatting with a colleague.] Are you referring to Microsoft or the Windows trolls? Jun 16 11:58
mark_antony_ken1 Microsoft for “no change” and trolls at “gone fairly quiet, away from technical and economic issues and onto silly personal attacks”. Jun 16 11:59
[H]omer They know they can’t win on technical issues Jun 16 11:59
schestowitz Ah well.. things have changed a lot in the past year. When I was in COLA in 2006 we had no upper hand. Jun 16 12:00
[H]omer And Microsoft’s economic dominance are due to racketeering, as several antitrust proceedings prove Jun 16 12:01
schestowitz Marketing = perception of technical merit; Patents = perception of technical ownership. Microsoft works hard on both, but none if technical progress. Jun 16 12:01
mark_antony_ken1 You’re right, the board is very much tilted in favour of the foss world, now.  It’s even become possible to put some pressure on proprietary companies to be at least a little more away of the foss community’s requirements. Jun 16 12:01
schestowitz <[H]omer>, the EU is nothing to rely on. The financial injury incurred by Neelie is nothing compared to a disaster like XBox360. Jun 16 12:02
schestowitz I don’t know if you guys ever follow BN.com, but I only write there about issues that I view as important, long-term. It’s not about the Linux device ju jour or the new feature Linux has. It’s about dirty tricks to change law and play with /people/ (not objects). Jun 16 12:04
schestowitz Microsoft lost the technical battle long ago (with some exceptions). It’s especially stuff like Wine and virtualisation that makes them very weak and fragile. Windows just becomes an /application/, not a platform. Jun 16 12:05
mark_antony_ken1 I’ve always found the lnog term stuff to be the most interesting, but it’s often reflected in what’s happening today.  Did you see my recent message to mitch on the 3-technology problem? Jun 16 12:05
schestowitz Isn’t Mitch a Mac person? I typically cross out (set to ignore) everything that comes from the Mac boards. Jun 16 12:06
mark_antony_ken1 Not seen him before, but he responded to one of my “desktop is dead” posts with a stack of ill-informed remarks, so I did some explanation… Jun 16 12:07
[H]omer Talking of Wine … I resurrected one of my old Windows games yesterday – “Little Big Adventure”. No way to get it to work on XP AFAICT (scrambled video and no audio), but it works on Linux under WIne perfectly Jun 16 12:08
schestowitz I think I saw that. In fact, 15 minutes ago I sent an article to Datamation’s editor and it contains bits about demise of the desktop. Jun 16 12:08
schestowitz I *loved* Little Big Adventure. The graphics was amazing at the time. Jun 16 12:09
schestowitz VESA! Jun 16 12:09
mark_antony_ken1 [H]omer: Part of the 3-technology problem is consolidating legacy on current generation – wine is brilliant because it provides an excellent means of doing so for win32 stuff – dosbox does the same for dos programmes. Jun 16 12:09
[H]omer I’m not aware of that phrase “3-technology”. What does it pertain to? Jun 16 12:10
schestowitz Meanwhile, the British Library is running Win3.1 virtualised to access old documents. What a bunch of *. They should move to ODF. Jun 16 12:10
mark_antony_ken1 ahahaha – you need to read my posting in response to mitch :-) Jun 16 12:10
mark_antony_ken1 I need to ressurect my brief bloggin attempt and write more of this down. Jun 16 12:10
[H]omer What thread was that, on COLA? Jun 16 12:11
[H]omer I k/file a lot of the Mac stuff Jun 16 12:11
mark_antony_ken1 It wasn’t a mac discussion, it was about the “death of the desktop” Jun 16 12:12
schestowitz here’s the URL: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os… Jun 16 12:12
[H]omer Ah OK … *that* thread Jun 16 12:13
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mark_antony_ken1 that’s part of it, but doesn’t seem to have the conversation with mitch in it. Jun 16 12:15
mark_antony_ken1 I note that people are still trying to link my day job with Microsoft… nothing could be further from the truth. Jun 16 12:15
mark_antony_ken1 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os… Jun 16 12:16
[H]omer Right, I get it now. It’s about the predictable nature of transitions from the past to the present and the future (a.k.a. history repeating itself). Jun 16 12:18
schestowitz Oh, that’s a thread I had set to “ignore”. Jun 16 12:18
mark_antony_ken1 Pretty much, yes.  There’re some very wide issues here, though – if you’re running a large business, then these things correspond to huge amounts of money.  I can go into a lot more detail about the model with respect to where innovation takes place and where consolidation takes place.  Amongst other things, it desmonstrates why Wine was *never* a threat to linux… Jun 16 12:19
schestowitz Nice theory there. There was an article last year about gates leaving because he saw Microsoft as the next stagnating IBM. Google is a possible.. well, candidate for inheritance. Sun and Oracle — who knows? Jun 16 12:20
mark_antony_ken1 Thanks!  I’ve been showing it at presentations for some time – most people go “hey, wow, I’d never thought of it like that before”.  It also fits the “disruptive technology” model of chistensen very well, and even explains why cash cows and rising stars need to be on separate technical platforms.  It’s a very very good model. Jun 16 12:22
schestowitz IBM moved to licensing (s/w patents) too. They too are suffering at the moment. Jun 16 12:23
[H]omer Yes, although the specific future of technology is not predictable, societal changes *are* based on patterns of use and demand, therefore one can predict the direction in which one should steer technology Jun 16 12:23
schestowitz And finally, there *is* a Google Linux, but it doesn’t come in the form people expected it (GNU/Linux distro for ‘the desktop’). Jun 16 12:24
schestowitz brb Jun 16 12:24
[H]omer Web based? Jun 16 12:24
mark_antony_ken1 Agreed.  The idea that you cannot “predict the future” is, really, more than a bit naive.  I think that you can readily say where consolidation is taking place, and you can recognise what is innovation and what is consolidation (usually confused).  Google have done a really good job of spotting the innovation opportunities, but are rapidly becoming “today’s technology”;  mash-ups seem to be looknig more like Jun 16 12:25
mark_antony_ken1 Along with appliances and mobility. Jun 16 12:26
[H]omer Just catching up on COLA Jun 16 12:28
mark_antony_ken1 Interesting seeing on google how I’m still being stalked… Jun 16 12:29
schestowitz I haven’t posted in COLA today. I will come around to it later on. Too many things got in the way, so juggling a little… Jun 16 12:29
schestowitz How so, Mark? Jun 16 12:29
mark_antony_ken1 Oh, you know, the follow-ups with out-of-context quotes and out and out lies. Jun 16 12:30
schestowitz I noticed yesterday that about 70 times so far this month people came to my personal site (dunno about other site) by searching for my surname. Jun 16 12:30
schestowitz Oh, I thought you meant something else then. Jun 16 12:31
schestowitz There was an ambiguity there (see if you can spot it) Jun 16 12:31
mark_antony_ken1 Nothing worse than that, yet. Jun 16 12:31
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schestowitz Here is something quite nifty. A little like a ‘LinFS’ (aka the now deceased WinFS): http://nhnfreespirit.kollide.net… Jun 16 12:47
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Eruaran More on KDE 4.1′s rather nifty folder view plasmoid: http://blog.lydiapintscher.de/2008/06/… Jun 16 13:45
schestowitz It’s an excellent idea, but people will take time getting used to the new metaphor. Jun 16 13:48
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Eruaran hi roy, I just got back Jun 16 15:18
Eruaran I think once people get used to it they’ll wonder how they ever made do without it Jun 16 15:19
schestowitz Welcome back. have you seen the latest posts yet? Microsoft invasion… Jun 16 15:19
schestowitz Win3.1->95 was a small leap. Nothing much has changed since then, not even in ME2. People come to expect this metaphor. Jun 16 15:20
Eruaran are they on BN ? Jun 16 15:21
Eruaran I love what the kde team are doing, its going to be a great desktop Jun 16 15:21
schestowitz Yes, it is. But it’s not even stable enough for Liquidat (Roland) yet, and he’s a big KDE fan. Jun 16 15:23
Eruaran Yes its not quite stable enough for me yet, though I hear the latest build in svn is stable. Jun 16 15:23
Eruaran I’ll just wait till July 29 Jun 16 15:24
schestowitz Really? That would be a relief. 4.0.3 I think was a step for the worse, IIRC, based on one the screenshots ‘guru’ from PolishLinux wrote. Jun 16 15:24
Eruaran They liquidated plasma and rebuilt it a few weeks ago Jun 16 15:25
schestowitz 3.1 was very stable for me. I used it until 2007. Jun 16 15:25
schestowitz Yes, Plasma is hectic (many changes). Jun 16 15:25
Eruaran Plasma has been rebuilt to take advantage of the latest Qt Jun 16 15:25
schestowitz And I worry that Seigo does interview and blogs frequently to defend his work. Which means less coding is done. Jun 16 15:26
Eruaran yes Jun 16 15:26
Eruaran I think people are being overly critical Jun 16 15:26
schestowitz Is anyone else working with hjm on it? Jun 16 15:26
Eruaran I believe so Jun 16 15:26
schestowitz That’s good. Beranger has been an ass about it for a long, long time. Jun 16 15:27
Eruaran If you dont take risks there’s no payoff Jun 16 15:27
Eruaran Every great project has always had its die hard naysayers Jun 16 15:28
Eruaran I hope Aaron doesn’t get discouraged by it Jun 16 15:28
schestowitz Well, I hope the project doesn’t depend on one public face. Beranger joked about KDE4 just being sheep following Aaron. Jun 16 15:29
Eruaran Someone’s got to have a vision Jun 16 15:29
Eruaran And his vision is good Jun 16 15:29
schestowitz Free software is like an open oven where you can see the meal cooking. There’s no curtain or cover. That’s what makes KDE so sensitive to early slagging. Jun 16 15:30
Eruaran I hate it when I see GNOME people being dismissive and arrogant while they slag off and call kde a failure Jun 16 15:30
schestowitz Someone comes and grabs an alpha version (half-cooked meal), then complains about the taste… Jun 16 15:31
Eruaran I dont see anything in GNOME worth crowing about Jun 16 15:31
schestowitz I use GNOME too. I criticise GNOME only for the Mono bits (looking ahead), but not for anything else.. Jun 16 15:31
Eruaran I think the gusty approach of Aaron and everyone who is working with him will pay off big in the end Jun 16 15:32
Eruaran Point is they criticize everything just for the sake of it Jun 16 15:32
schestowitz They have over 50 million Brazilian children waiting for KDE4. :-) Jun 16 15:33
Eruaran :D Jun 16 15:33
schestowitz I’m sure it’s just resistance to change. Leopard too had its share of early disaster, but Apple and its loyal users kept quiet about it. I could find you articles I’ve accumulated to show this. Jun 16 15:34
Eruaran I’m enthused about change… its about time Jun 16 15:35
Eruaran But its those little things as well Jun 16 15:35
Eruaran Those little things that make you think, “why didn’t anyone think of that before ?” Jun 16 15:35
Eruaran Like proper highlighted search in Konsole Jun 16 15:36
schestowitz I’m trying to find the refs. Look what I found along the way (2005):http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.l… Jun 16 15:36
Eruaran And the little green hover buttons in Dolphin that show up when you mouse over a file that allow you to simply click and select multiple files… simple, discoverable, nice Jun 16 15:37
schestowitz Here are Apple’s pains: http://groups.google.com/group/comp… Jun 16 15:38
Eruaran yes Jun 16 15:39
Eruaran What I love about those little green buttons is that the user doesn’t need anyone to tell them to hold down ctrl and click on stuff… the user can see this little green thing and figure it out without help Jun 16 15:41
Eruaran thats usability in action Jun 16 15:41
Eruaran discoverability Jun 16 15:42
schestowitz I think Vista had something similar. Jun 16 15:42
Eruaran I havent seen it in Vista Jun 16 15:42
schestowitz It gives options though. bear in mind that I have not used Windows for years, so I only read about it. Jun 16 15:42
Eruaran Vista’s ‘gadgets’ and file management is primitive compared to what is going on with kde 4 Jun 16 15:43
Eruaran dolphin is just getting better and better, they really are leading on usability, the power is there also, you’ve got folder view, and nepomuk Jun 16 15:43
schestowitz Will they still maintain and extend Konqy? Jun 16 15:44
Eruaran yes Jun 16 15:44
Eruaran You’ll prize Konqueror from the dev’s cold dead hands ;) Jun 16 15:45
schestowitz Because I need FTP and KIO and all those advanced things that make other file manager feel primitive. Jun 16 15:45
schestowitz Konqueror is at the centre of 3.5, even the desktop. KWin is important also. I hardly think about the rest (I use gdm) Jun 16 15:46
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schestowitz BECTA is stil getting ripped http://news.zdnet.co.uk/soft… http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/n… Jun 16 15:46
Eruaran Obviously plasma is the central thing now, but it doesnt throw good stuff away, it just extends the use ‘plasma wide’ Jun 16 15:46
Eruaran so you folder view uses kio Jun 16 15:47
Eruaran and ftp Jun 16 15:47
Eruaran and nepomuk Jun 16 15:47
Eruaran :P Jun 16 15:47
Eruaran Konqueror isnt going unloved Jun 16 15:48
schestowitz That’s good. I thought they ripped bits of it for Dolphin. Tabs were added too. Jun 16 15:49
Eruaran people like dolphin, and i can understand that Jun 16 15:50
schestowitz Are you involved in KDE? Jun 16 15:51
Eruaran I’m just an advocate who likes to keep up with whats going on Jun 16 15:52
Eruaran Though I Jun 16 15:53
Eruaran I’d like to get involved at some stage… I’d like to learn some coding first :P Jun 16 15:54
schestowitz I used Qt for a while, but not much. Jun 16 15:54
schestowitz OBS: It’s so annoying when everything under the sun is call “Open Source” (no dash, not even lowcase): http://www.news.com.au/bu… *sigh* Jun 16 15:55
schestowitz SSD+open source (‘open-source’ h/w?!?!): http://www.eetasia.com/AR… Some years ago “open source” actually referred more to code. Jun 16 15:56
Eruaran yes Jun 16 15:56
schestowitz Heh. Jun 16 15:58
schestowitz Just found that we made the India press:  So there is a whole lot of skepticism in the process. A website developed by people who want to show their anger against this policy by Microsoft is there with the domain name boycottnovell. http://business.merinews.c… Jun 16 15:58
schestowitz I didn’t even notice it by searching. I just read this idiotic article which pretends that if only 4 countries /complain/, then all else was fine (no stuffing, no gagging, no bullying, etc). I blame Microsoft’s brainwash (history rewrite) for this disconnect, ignorance. Jun 16 15:59
Eruaran I learned something interesting about a major retailer here in Australia recently Jun 16 16:00
Eruaran Microsoft required them to pull XP off the shelves when they started shipping Vista Jun 16 16:01
schestowitz I heard something similar. Jun 16 16:01
schestowitz Maybe I can find it… Jun 16 16:01
Eruaran They literally had to send the stock back apparrently Jun 16 16:01
Eruaran or rather exchange it Jun 16 16:01
schestowitz I’m not sure how to find it or what it was, but it was a rumour that was extremely damaging. Something about retaliation. Jun 16 16:02
schestowitz Let me search anyhow. Jun 16 16:02
schestowitz For the first time I actually searched for something like this: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&a… (I don’t do vanity searches, but the article above got me curious) Jun 16 16:04
Eruaran Currently if you attempt to open a .odt document for example in Microsoft Word, you get assailed by dialogues that say the document is corrupted, asks you if you want to ‘fix’ it, and it insinuates you shouldn’t trust it or the source it came from. Jun 16 16:10
schestowitz Remember DR-DOS? Jun 16 16:11
Eruaran I know there are many people who will think negatively about ODF because of this kind of flat out BS in Microsoft products. Jun 16 16:11
Eruaran yes Jun 16 16:11
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/03… Jun 16 16:12
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/comes-v… Jun 16 16:12
schestowitz http://www.boycottnovell.com/comes-v… Jun 16 16:13
Eruaran I love this one: “If Microsoft says you’ve got five fingers on each hand, many people will insist on an independent count.” Jun 16 16:13
schestowitz Microsoft: “what the guy is supposed to do is feel uncomfortable, and when he has bugs, suspect that the problem is dr-dos and then go out and buy ms-dos, or decide not to take the risk for the other machines he has to buy for in the office.” Jun 16 16:14
Eruaran Even if they tell the truth, nobody trusts them, such is their history and reputation. Jun 16 16:14
Eruaran yes, they are up to the same old tricks Jun 16 16:14
schestowitz “Concerns have been raised that DR-DOS incompatibilities and flaws are being overlooked by reviewers. [...] We recommend that we *informally* plant the bug of FUD in their ears. “Have you heard about problems with DR DOS?” Jun 16 16:15
Eruaran I decided to try and open an open document in Word one day just to see what happened… what I saw simply disgusted me. Jun 16 16:15
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Eruaran Have you seen the clip on YouTube where a guy attempts to use Vista’s voice regognition with OpenOffice ? Jun 16 16:16
PetoKraus :D Jun 16 16:16
Eruaran He tries it out with MS Word, then word pad and it all works fine Jun 16 16:17
schestowitz http://www.odfalliance.org/resour… (Microsoft’s Burton puppet: “ODF is simplistic” (bad word). Beat in mind that Pete O’Kelly later had contracts with Microsoft. Lots of money. Jun 16 16:17
Eruaran Then he tries it with OpenOffice and Vista’s speech recognition suddenly develops selective deafness and an inability to comprehend basic speech patterns. Jun 16 16:17
PetoKraus Eruaran: got vid? Jun 16 16:17
PetoKraus *link Jun 16 16:18
schestowitz Yes, please. Jun 16 16:18
Eruaran yes, just a sec PetoKraus (and hello) Jun 16 16:18
PetoKraus i’d even launch firefox to see that :) Jun 16 16:18
schestowitz That;s something to write about. Also your easrlier observation., Jun 16 16:18
Eruaran If you like I could take some screenshots tomorrow at work Jun 16 16:19
Eruaran of the dialogues MS Word gives you when you try to use and ODF document Jun 16 16:19
schestowitz Please do. The error message. I can make an Ogg from YouTube vids. Jun 16 16:19
schestowitz Yes, a screenshot would be good. Jun 16 16:19
PetoKraus schestowitz: how do you do that, anyway Jun 16 16:19
Eruaran I was disgusted when I first saw them because I knew that Microsoft knows damn well what a .odt is Jun 16 16:20
schestowitz akf told me about a service that allows you to download the flvs. I used to have PyTube working, but Google broke its functionality. Jun 16 16:20
Eruaran Miro looks good… I havent tried it yet but it looks good Jun 16 16:21
schestowitz It then ought to be pointed out that Microsoft claims to have become ‘buddies’ with ODF. Not quite, eh? Jun 16 16:22
Eruaran Vista speech recognition refusing to work with OOo: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=5sVQlphmqsU Jun 16 16:22
Eruaran One commenter says: It is a demonstration of how Vista speech recognition is deliberately crippled with a non-Microsoft piece of software. Jun 16 16:23
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PetoKraus LMAO Jun 16 16:26
schestowitz Wow. Jun 16 16:26
schestowitz The “Wow” starts…. now. Jun 16 16:26
Eruaran yes Jun 16 16:27
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schestowitz So we can conclude from this that Notepad is better than OOo Jun 16 16:27
PetoKraus sure! Jun 16 16:27
Eruaran oh yeah ;) Jun 16 16:27
PetoKraus it has more useful features Jun 16 16:27
PetoKraus such as working Speech Recognition Jun 16 16:27
PetoKraus man, that “hello world” -> opening help and “new line” -> “what was that” Jun 16 16:28
PetoKraus that’s brilliant Jun 16 16:28
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schestowitz Microsoft could argue that OOo is just not ‘interoperable’ with Vista or this part of it. Jun 16 16:28
PetoKraus that’s a lie Jun 16 16:29
schestowitz Playing devil’s advocate here anyway. Jun 16 16:29
Eruaran Its just so blatant I cant believe no one has pointed this little tid bit out to the EU Commission Jun 16 16:30
schestowitz Just in: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1… (Vista’s big problem: 92 percent of developers ignoring it) Jun 16 16:30
Eruaran Did you know that Linux dominates 85% of the HPC market ? Jun 16 16:31
Eruaran (High Performance Computing) Jun 16 16:31
schestowitz 91%+ if you include virtualisation. Jun 16 16:31
Eruaran Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers ! Jun 16 16:32
schestowitz Just 11 times. It was 14. Jun 16 16:33
Eruaran D’oh ! Jun 16 16:34
PetoKraus oh come on :P Jun 16 16:34
schestowitz No sweat! Jun 16 16:34
Eruaran heh Jun 16 16:35
schestowitz brb Jun 16 16:35
Eruaran A friend at work was telling me the other day how much trouble it is developing Vista apps Jun 16 16:35
schestowitz Try design hardware for it. Ask Creative Labs, AMD and NVidia. Jun 16 16:37
Eruaran Nvidia will have to open up at some point Jun 16 16:38
PetoKraus well, it would be cool if amd just released the chip specc’s Jun 16 16:38
PetoKraus and said: MS, code your drivers yourself :P Jun 16 16:38
schestowitz They will <Eruaran> . Jun 16 16:39
schestowitz Someone told me. Eye August. Jun 16 16:39
PetoKraus well, it’ll take long time… Jun 16 16:39
schestowitz It’s not for sure, but a big announcement is coming. Jun 16 16:39
Eruaran I installed Ubuntu on a couple of notebooks with Intel graphics chipsets last week Jun 16 16:39
Eruaran It was a dream Jun 16 16:39
Eruaran “just works” Jun 16 16:39
Eruaran Pretty as a peach Jun 16 16:39
PetoKraus well Jun 16 16:40
PetoKraus i’ve installed ubuntu on Intel ICH8 chipset Jun 16 16:40
PetoKraus no audio. Jun 16 16:40
schestowitz I have one at home, sadly. Compiz worked out of the box, but I hate Intel. Jun 16 16:40
Eruaran Its just nice when things work like that even from the live CD Jun 16 16:40
schestowitz I had everything work from the live CD at home last year. It was Ubuntu 5.04 IIRC Jun 16 16:41
Eruaran 5.04 ? wow Jun 16 16:41
schestowitz Yes, I still have 4.10 CDs. Jun 16 16:42
Eruaran I started using Kubuntu at 5.04 Jun 16 16:42
schestowitz It uses FF 0.9x IIRC. I had trouble with one site because of this Jun 16 16:43
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Eruaran oh I just remembered Jun 16 16:43
Eruaran Its FF download day today Jun 16 16:43
schestowitz Yeah, whatever. :-) Jun 16 16:44
schestowitz I had a little argument with Asa last year, so I’m not going to do much PR for them by ‘signing up’ for the privilege to hammer the server. Jun 16 16:44
Eruaran heh Jun 16 16:44
schestowitz They are Mac users over there… most of them anyway Jun 16 16:45
Eruaran Really ? Jun 16 16:45
Eruaran I didnt know that Jun 16 16:45
schestowitz The recently-released videos from Sean Kerner Michael seemed to suggest so. They don’t mind defective by design gear. Same with Novell. Jun 16 16:46
Eruaran hmm dissappointing Jun 16 16:47
Eruaran *disappointing Jun 16 16:47
schestowitz They are not a Free software company, but that’s OK. It’s the arrival of more restrictive EULAs (I think) in 1.5 that had some folks concerned. Jun 16 16:49
Eruaran I haven’t followed FF much Jun 16 16:51
Eruaran I use Konqueror most of the time Jun 16 16:51
schestowitz I ought to do so too, but I’m ‘addicted’ to some plugins. Jun 16 16:53
Eruaran I tend to use Konq simply because it starts up faster Jun 16 16:57
schestowitz Makes sense. I need XUL rehab, It takes over 10 seconds for my PCs to start Firefox. It has other loads. Main issue (in v2 at least): memory leaks. Jun 16 16:59
Eruaran yes I’ve heard about the memory leaks Jun 16 17:01
Eruaran If I had ‘stumbleupon’ for Konqueror I Jun 16 17:01
schestowitz I’ll test FF3 next weekend at home before upgrading at work. Jun 16 17:01
Eruaran *I’d hardly ever need to use FF at all Jun 16 17:01
Eruaran Ive been using FF3 on Ubuntu at work without problems Jun 16 17:02
schestowitz It’s compatibility with plugins (usually just need to change some string in the XULs) that’s the issue. Jun 16 17:03
schestowitz I use some very old plaugins. Since the pre-1.0 version. Jun 16 17:03
Eruaran gtg Jun 16 17:15
Eruaran bbl Jun 16 17:15
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