07.12.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 11th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 2:10 am by Roy Schestowitz

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yuhong	“Apple is not an ethical company”	Jul 11 05:16
yuhong	I would not go that far.	Jul 11 05:16
yuhong	It is certainly better than MS.	Jul 11 05:16
yuhong	But thanks for pointing out that MS is not the only company that does that.	Jul 11 05:17
schestowitz	Yes	Jul 11 05:17
schestowitz	I didn’t put them in the same class.	Jul 11 05:17
yuhong	AMD tried to take reviewers to Tahoe for the Phenom launch.	Jul 11 05:17
yuhong	Luckily at least some reviewers didn’t go.	Jul 11 05:18
schestowitz	This I sisn’t know,	Jul 11 05:18
schestowitz	*didn;t.	Jul 11 05:18
yuhong	I think that is the real gauge of reviewers.	Jul 11 05:18
schestowitz	It’s like lobbying. They are following competitors’ tricks.	Jul 11 05:19
yuhong	http://techreport.com/dis…	Jul 11 05:20
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:20
schestowitz	AMD suffers from a much worse rival.	Jul 11 05:21
yuhong	I think the fundemental issue in the end, is that corporations onlyycare about profit.	Jul 11 05:21
schestowitz	Intel is a lot worse. From my point of view, Intel is run by people who should be kept behind bars.	Jul 11 05:21
yuhong	I would not go that far.	Jul 11 05:22
schestowitz	There are market rules.	Jul 11 05:22
schestowitz	Those who don’t obey the rules are never punished.	Jul 11 05:22
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:22
yuhong	And it applies not to just MS and Intel.	Jul 11 05:22
yuhong	FDA, for example.	Jul 11 05:22
schestowitz	Yes.	Jul 11 05:23
yuhong	BTW, I originally were going to say that Intel kicked AMD out of the high-end.	Jul 11 05:23
schestowitz	But the ‘Chinese FDA’ is worse.	Jul 11 05:23
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:23
yuhong	Actually, I am not sure.	Jul 11 05:24
yuhong	Anyway, see my point.	Jul 11 05:24
yuhong	I think the fundemental issue in the end, is that corporations only care about profit.	Jul 11 05:24
schestowitz	They should also care about rules.	Jul 11 05:25
yuhong	Yep, but they don’t, and that is unfortunate.	Jul 11 05:25
schestowitz	The regulatory system fails to function. it’s easily violated by influence.	Jul 11 05:25
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:25
yuhong	There is a fundemental problem here, any solutions?	Jul 11 05:25
schestowitz	Showing where the system fails is one option. USPTO, ISO, etc.	Jul 11 05:26
yuhong	Maybe, but I am talking about the “corporations only care about profit” problem.	Jul 11 05:27
schestowitz	That’s down to education.	Jul 11 05:27
schestowitz	In many countries, children are raises to admire and cherish the mighty buck. There’s more to that in life.	Jul 11 05:28
yuhong	Maybe, but that is not what I am talking about.	Jul 11 05:29
yuhong	Shareholders are one factor.	Jul 11 05:29
schestowitz	Higher fines need to be imposed.	Jul 11 05:30
schestowitz	Disobeying rules should have punishments that are severe enough to scare shareholder. Look at Microsoft’s profits declining in the last quarter, partly due to fines.	Jul 11 05:30
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yuhong	That can help.	Jul 11 05:38
yuhong	Changing shareholder attitude can help as well.	Jul 11 05:39
schestowitz	Well, bad behaviour isn’t tied to fines yet. Shareholders rarely care about behaviour or products. They care about stock value.	Jul 11 05:40
yuhong	That is exactly the problem I am trying to solve.	Jul 11 05:41
yuhong	Any solutions?	Jul 11 05:43
schestowitz	You can never solve it. It’s human nature. It’s why CO2 emissions would never be reduced and the planet is, assuming education isn’t properly used, doomed to see some islands flooded.	Jul 11 05:43
schestowitz	You can reduce crime, but you can’t make it end.	Jul 11 05:43
yuhong	Yep, that is what I mean by changing shareholder attitude.	Jul 11 05:43
schestowitz	The angle explored by Larry Lessig, for example, is the fact that shareholder bend the law to their interest. The US political system permits it.	Jul 11 05:44
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:44
yuhong	What really matters is that it is hard enough to break the law that people don’t do it.	Jul 11 05:45
yuhong	In fact, substitute the word “law” for “DRM” to see what really matters in DRM.	Jul 11 05:46
schestowitz	Who would make such a law. It’s a fox-hen house thing.	Jul 11 05:46
schestowitz	The corrupting force will ensure that illegal (should be illegal) things like lobbying can prevail.	Jul 11 05:47
yuhong	Unfortunately the Internet makes it easy to distibute the DRM-breaker’s work.	Jul 11 05:47
schestowitz	DRM is about change of business model for increased profit (own versus rent)	Jul 11 05:47
yuhong	Yep, there is a reason why DRM on things you rent matters less than DRM on things that you “own”.	Jul 11 05:48
schestowitz	Eben Moglen: “Everybody is connected to everybody else, all data that can be shared will be shared will be shared: get used to it.”	Jul 11 05:48
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:48
schestowitz	Forget about the Internet. People can sing to each other, they can swap CDs, USB drivers, etc.	Jul 11 05:48
yuhong	Dongles have an advantage here.	Jul 11 05:49
schestowitz	What’s needed is a new model, and it’s /not/ DRM.	Jul 11 05:49
yuhong	Because it is physical hardware, and physical hardware cannot be copied by using the Internet.	Jul 11 05:49
yuhong	I agree on the new business model.	Jul 11 05:49
yuhong	All of the major music stores are selling music with no DRM.	Jul 11 05:50
schestowitz	Infinitely-duplicable things enjoy a high-bandwidth transaction and portability. Some companies still try to illegalise FOSS (original work on copylefted code)	Jul 11 05:50
yuhong	Yep, again dongles have an advantage here for copy protection of software.	Jul 11 05:50
schestowitz	The RIAA wants music DRM back. Either way, you now end up with ACTA, which means that you live in gestapo state where threats make the law.	Jul 11 05:51
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:51
yuhong	DMCA, for example.	Jul 11 05:51
schestowitz	That too.	Jul 11 05:51
yuhong	Telecom immunity is another example.	Jul 11 05:51
schestowitz	I still perceive the fight from Free software as one that opposes corruption.	Jul 11 05:52
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 05:52
schestowitz	Telecon immunity? Well, but there’s ‘terrorism’, no?	Jul 11 05:52
yuhong	And the best way to solve this problem is again to change shareholder’s attitudes.	Jul 11 05:52
schestowitz	Go ahead and try.	Jul 11 05:53
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schestowitz	I found this a moment ago: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/0…	Jul 11 05:53
yuhong	BTW, terrorism is a common excuse used by the Bush administration.	Jul 11 05:54
schestowitz	It’s the IDC shills (paid by Microsoft, as usual), joined by the BSA which last week lobbied to illegaise Free software on behalf of Microsoft et al.	Jul 11 05:54
yuhong	It isn’t just MS, however, the music industry blame lost CD sales on piracy as well.	Jul 11 05:55
yuhong	BTW, on the people who wipe out Linux on new PCs for pirated Windows, how many do it?	Jul 11 05:57
schestowitz	It’s not even “piracy”.	Jul 11 05:57
schestowitz	It’s not “pirated”.	Jul 11 05:57
schestowitz	See, that’s just an insult.	Jul 11 05:57
schestowitz	And media people absorb the words.	Jul 11 05:57
yuhong	Yep, there is a page on the FSF talking about that.	Jul 11 05:58
schestowitz	I’d love to see the media starting to absorb the word “criminal” when referring to the moguls.	Jul 11 05:58
yuhong	Unlikely, however.	Jul 11 05:58
schestowitz	Yes, I know.	Jul 11 05:58
schestowitz	The problem is that the weathy is very influential so they get to glofitfy themselves in the press while portraying others as crooks.	Jul 11 05:58
yuhong	Anyway, I just treat the word “piracy” as a synonym for “illegal copying”.	Jul 11 05:59
schestowitz	It changes perception, but there’s that old theory about hypocriisy and how the Big Ship thinks of the small guy in the dingy as a “pirate”	Jul 11 05:59
yuhong	And it is not limited to just software.	Jul 11 05:59
schestowitz	Big = good; small = evil.	Jul 11 05:59
yuhong	I agree that this is not good.	Jul 11 05:59
yuhong	Radio started as “piracy” and the record industry solved the problem.	Jul 11 06:00
schestowitz	I think of piracy as “copyright infringement”	Jul 11 06:00
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:00
yuhong	BTW, the word “consumer” is a misnomer, I was actually thinking about having two classes of people.	Jul 11 06:01
schestowitz	While it’s easy to do so (sometimes accidentally, e.g. if you save a Web page to your HDD), it’s a violation of a law called “copyrights”.	Jul 11 06:01
yuhong	Consumer, and producer.	Jul 11 06:01
schestowitz	Yes, consumer is another ’shareholder terminology”	Jul 11 06:01
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:01
yuhong	And it is unfair.	Jul 11 06:01
schestowitz	But you don’t get to name thing. It’s the influential that maps things.	Jul 11 06:02
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:02
schestowitz	There are parallels in politics, but that’s another story.	Jul 11 06:02
yuhong	BTW, Palladium is evil, but the Fritz chip can be used for purposes other than that.	Jul 11 06:03
schestowitz	Budging this on topic, Novell too plays a role now in Micrsosoft’s perception shaping for FOSS.	Jul 11 06:03
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:03
schestowitz	It actually FUDs free software where it does not fit its definition. Novell is back to vanity days (Netware monopoly)	Jul 11 06:03
yuhong	BTW, how did samba respond to the doc release by MS.	Jul 11 06:03
schestowitz	speaking of unjust system, see this:	Jul 11 06:04
schestowitz	Just in: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/0…	Jul 11 06:05
schestowitz	In American, if you’re rich, you can ignore the law and get away with it.	Jul 11 06:05
schestowitz	Same with Robert Bach at Microsoft. He was caught insider-trading last years and never even investigated by the SEC as a result. In America, being rich means being above the law.	Jul 11 06:05
yuhong	I know, but I care more about how much shareholders care about the public than about this	Jul 11 06:06
schestowitz	http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer…	Jul 11 06:06
schestowitz	http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap…	Jul 11 06:06
schestowitz	From AP (f* em for the new policy): “It gives the appearance that, ‘I had a partner in crime and it was Steve Jobs,’” Munster said.	Jul 11 06:07
schestowitz	Microsoft too: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_2… (Microsoft’s past stock options practice poses questions)	Jul 11 06:07
schestowitz	http://www.smh.com.au/news/Tech…	Jul 11 06:07
yuhong	BTW, the Sound Recorder in Vista default to saving as wma, unless you are using the N edition that is without media player, then it defaults to saving to WAV.	Jul 11 06:15
schestowitz	They want to spread their proprietary, DRM-ready garbage. Later they try to sell Red Hat ‘licences’ to these filetypes. The company still plays dirty. It should use industry standards or royalty-free formats.	Jul 11 06:16
yuhong	Thank EU for stopping them.	Jul 11 06:16
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schestowitz	Not yet. It’s not over until “the fat lady sings” (or gets bribed)	Jul 11 06:22
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yuhong	“the fat lady sings”: what do you mean?	Jul 11 06:31
schestowitz	It’s a nice phrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_ain’t_over_’til_the_fat_lady_sings	Jul 11 06:33
schestowitz	Watch this news: http://www.heise.de/english/ne…	Jul 11 06:34
yuhong	BTW, on the EU lawsuit, how did samba respond to the docs released by MS thanks to this lawsuit.	Jul 11 06:36
schestowitz	Probably too well at the time, but Microsoft wants ‘Samba tax’.	Jul 11 06:36
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:36
yuhong	But luckily that is not what they did.	Jul 11 06:37
yuhong	I am talking about the docs however, not the tax.	Jul 11 06:37
schestowitz	Not quite. I’m not following this closely, but I think they want to make ‘pulling a Samba’ the norm, i.e. charge projects $10,000 for docs (+per copy royalties). They are losing it at Redmond, so they try to set precedence, also with Novell.	Jul 11 06:38
schestowitz	They make it convenient for those that sell out, e.g. Novell, Linspire.	Jul 11 06:38
yuhong	Yep, but luckily they ended up making it so that only one organization pay the cost.	Jul 11 06:39
yuhong	That organization in this case is the PFIF.	Jul 11 06:39
yuhong	BTW, again as I said, supporting OOXML is not evil.	Jul 11 06:40
yuhong	But claiming that it is as open as ODF because of such support is.	Jul 11 06:40
schestowitz	You miss the point.	Jul 11 06:40
yuhong	supporting I mean opening and saving OOXML files.	Jul 11 06:41
schestowitz	Care to implement it? 12,000 pages? Then, if it’s FOSS, Microsoft can sue you.	Jul 11 06:41
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:41
schestowitz	The whole thing is a fiasco that gets worse. I’ll post about it later today.	Jul 11 06:41
yuhong	But supporting it is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.	Jul 11 06:41
schestowitz	ISO is equally corrupted if it thinks it can sweep abuses of the rules under the rug.	Jul 11 06:42
yuhong	Yep.	Jul 11 06:42
yuhong	But supporting it is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.	Jul 11 06:42
yuhong	supporting I mean opening and saving files.	Jul 11 06:42
schestowitz	Being more evil than something else doesn’t make it “not evil”	Jul 11 06:42
yuhong	Do you mean less?	Jul 11 06:42
schestowitz	It’s again that shareholders dilemma.	Jul 11 06:43
schestowitz	Microsoft will be anti-fair competition as long as it wants to make more money. Its goals make it evil, by definition, and it has to change through regulation that balances things differently. Then, obeying the rules is a reward-worthy thing.	Jul 11 06:44
yuhong	I’d support both ODF and OOXML.	Jul 11 06:44
yuhong	Again supporting I mean opening and OOXML files.	Jul 11 06:44
yuhong	Again supporting I mean opening and saving files.	Jul 11 06:44
schestowitz	Why multiple standards?	Jul 11 06:44
yuhong	That is evil as well.	Jul 11 06:44
schestowitz	Would you like fragmentation that revolves around HDDVD and Blu-Ray too? Who benefits?	Jul 11 06:45
yuhong	I agree.	Jul 11 06:45
yuhong	But supporting i mean adding support to a word processor for opening and saving.	Jul 11 06:45
schestowitz	Ask Van Der Beld (??? can’t recall name) why there should be mutiple ones.	Jul 11 06:45
yuhong	I agree.	Jul 11 06:45
yuhong	But supporting i mean adding support to a word processor for opening and saving.	Jul 11 06:45
schestowitz	He said (using CD/DVD formats as an example): “you are well paid, shut up”	Jul 11 06:46
yuhong	And that is not hard.	Jul 11 06:46
yuhong	That is not really true.	Jul 11 06:46
yuhong	That is hard actually.	Jul 11 06:46
yuhong	But my meaning of “support” here is different from your meaning.	Jul 11 06:47
schestowitz	ODF is universal. It needn’t collide with any app.	Jul 11 06:47
yuhong	I know.	Jul 11 06:48
yuhong	>But my meaning of “support” here is different from your meaning.	Jul 11 06:48
schestowitz	What is it then?	Jul 11 06:49
yuhong	support i mean adding support to a office suite for opening and saving.	Jul 11 06:49
schestowitz	Yes, and all office suites could do that with ODF.	Jul 11 06:51
yuhong	Of course, and they should support (open and save) OOXML as well.	Jul 11 06:52
schestowitz	No, OOXML should never have existed in the first place.	Jul 11 06:52
yuhong	It is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.	Jul 11 06:52
yuhong	And they already do that.	Jul 11 06:52
schestowitz	It’s Microsoft’s attempt to decommoditise	Jul 11 06:52
schestowitz	Same with the Web and stuff like ActiveX (+neglect of Web standards)	Jul 11 06:53
yuhong	Even “embarse and extend” is better, but it is too late.	Jul 11 06:53
yuhong	Office 2007 and some OOXML docs has already come out.	Jul 11 06:53
yuhong	Supporting (opening and saving) it is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.	Jul 11 06:53
yuhong	And the suites already do that.	Jul 11 06:53
schestowitz	The first step should be to strike OOXML out of governments.	Jul 11 06:54
schestowitz	It needn’t penetrate any place where it doesn’t exist, for the scam that it is for starters.	Jul 11 06:54
yuhong	Yep. But this is a different topic.	Jul 11 06:55
yuhong	BTW, I just installed Sun’s ODF converter on top of Office.	Jul 11 06:55
schestowitz	You could get even better support with OOo or Symphony .	Jul 11 06:56
yuhong	I am talking about whether a word processor support OOXML, not which organizations are supporting OOXML.	Jul 11 06:56
yuhong	NeoOffice support opening OOXML.	Jul 11 06:56
yuhong	And that good.	Jul 11 06:56
yuhong	But claiming that it is as open as ODF is bad, and that is what Novell is doing.	Jul 11 06:57
schestowitz	Novell is a Microsoft company in the making (in my eyes). I don’t take anything it says serious (on FOSS).	Jul 11 06:57
schestowitz	*seriously	Jul 11 06:58
yuhong	BTW, on the matter of Apple, a lot of the mixed records of Apple on open source is i think due to internal politics.	Jul 11 07:00
yuhong	iPhone is a good example.	Jul 11 07:00
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schestowitz	Ah	Jul 11 07:01
schestowitz	Yes, I mentioned that yesterday	Jul 11 07:01
schestowitz	They misuse open source like a dead horse.	Jul 11 07:01
schestowitz	One of the most locked down things (software, hardware, carriers) is trying to get ‘open source’ type publicity. Even Microsoft is more open.	Jul 11 07:02
yuhong	Internal politics are a factor here.	Jul 11 07:02
yuhong	Whether locking down is a good thing is another factor.	Jul 11 07:02
yuhong	*matter	Jul 11 07:03
schestowitz	it’s not. It permits Trust (in the antitrust sense).	Jul 11 07:04
yuhong	I’m sure those in charge in open source at Apple advocates open source.	Jul 11 07:04
yuhong	That is why I say internal politics are a factor here.	Jul 11 07:05
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schestowitz	The press is humming with that stupid article that calls IBM Symphony “open source” (it’s not)	Jul 11 07:27
schestowitz	IBM is still faking it. I’ve spoken to the journalist who published this and referred him to IBM’s Sutor at the end. IBM is a proprietary software company, as usual.	Jul 11 07:27
schestowitz	Mental note: “Eclipse, Microsoft, Sun and Zend are RedMonk customers, while ActiveState (Komodo) and MacroMates (TextMate) are not.” http://redmonk.com/so…	Jul 11 07:31
schestowitz	So they are paid by Microsoft now.	Jul 11 07:31
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schestowitz	PetoKraus: I said I’d write it today. I just did. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… (you’d have to look back at old links too, for context at the very least)	Jul 11 10:46
PetoKraus	cheers man	Jul 11 10:48
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schestowitz	The anti-Linux activists will have a field trip over that news from the Philippines about a school, so be prepared (it has just been published). Microsoft uses application lock-in to stifle portability (ActiveX, DirectX, COM, etc) and this one is no exception, just like in Vienna.	Jul 11 14:42
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schestowitz	Spinola du jour: http://www.businessreviewonline.com/os… Characterising abusive Microsoft execs as “Linux fans”.	Jul 11 16:51
schestowitz	Another blitz in the making (Linus dissing to be expected): http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterpr…	Jul 11 17:25
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yuhong	From http://forum.roughlydrafted.com/fo…	Jul 11 22:58
yuhong	“Well, there is a paradox here. Remember back in WWDC 2008, they talked about how the “task manager” is bad. Another reason is that it is too technical for the average user. The average user will most likely blame the phone instead.”	Jul 11 22:58
yuhong	“And add the fact that the average user don’t care about “openness”, and see my point? “	Jul 11 22:58
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yuhong	From http://forum.roughlydrafted.com/forum/comments.php?Discu…	Jul 11 23:48
yuhong	Well, there is a paradox here. Remember back in WWDC 2008, they talked about how the “task manager” is bad. Another reason is that it is too technical for the average user. The average user will most likely blame the phone instead. And add the fact that the average user don’t care about “openness”, and see my point?	Jul 11 23:48
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