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08.16.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 15th, 2008 – Part I

Posted in IRC Logs at 10:02 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

schestowitz The BBC one? Aug 15 00:00
twitter yes Aug 15 00:31
twitter :) Aug 15 00:31
twitter Here’s a question that has nothing to do with anything. Aug 15 00:32
twitter I’d like to modify QCad.  Where can I find out how to compile it? Aug 15 00:32
twitter I got the source from Lenny, and it looks like a monster. Aug 15 00:33
schestowitz Is there no MakeFile with some instructions? Aug 15 00:34
twitter There seem to be several makefiles :) Aug 15 00:35
schestowitz Have you asked the developers? Aug 15 00:35
twitter No.  RibbonSoft has a newer version. Aug 15 00:36
schestowitz By the way, I think I’ve just found out who the imposter at Digg is. It seems like Gary M Stewart, long time Munnckin. He repeats the same words with other nyms now. Aug 15 00:36
twitter I’ll go look at RibbonSoft again.  I tried to search debian.org and got lots of bug reports.  Nice but not what I was looking for. Aug 15 00:37
twitter Is Gary S a real person? Aug 15 00:37
schestowitz Apparently yes. That creature has infected Linux forums for over a decade and attacked people too. Aug 15 00:38
twitter Strange occupation. Aug 15 00:38
schestowitz He spammed my employers and all too… it’s quite a vile propaganda piece. Aug 15 00:38
schestowitz He should be kept in prison. Aug 15 00:39
twitter reading http://boycottnovell.com/200… Aug 15 00:40
*schestowitz looks can’t remember) Aug 15 00:40
schestowitz (typo) I can’t remember which one it is Aug 15 00:40
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corruptmemory Roy? Aug 15 00:53
schestowitz Hi there! Aug 15 00:53
corruptmemory Ok, quick note Aug 15 00:54
corruptmemory From http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/1… Aug 15 00:54
corruptmemory you said: “I have no problem with someone who protests against the GPL (computer users? freedom), but not in a FOSS/Linux forum. I don?t go to Windows forums criticising Microsoft and people who are in the forum.” Aug 15 00:54
corruptmemory I think that’s too limited IMHO Aug 15 00:54
corruptmemory Engagement is necessary Aug 15 00:54
corruptmemory Of course you do have to consider your audience Aug 15 00:55
corruptmemory or be considered a “troll” ;-) Aug 15 00:55
schestowitz Sometimes these people are agents, in which case they are fed. Aug 15 00:55
schestowitz I have a particular type in mind. Aug 15 00:55
corruptmemory No doubt Aug 15 00:55
corruptmemory I’m sure Aug 15 00:55
schestowitz There are those who come to forums with personal attack and filthy language just to ruin the forum. Aug 15 00:56
corruptmemory But “freedom lovers”, if you will have to engage those who don;t know what they are giving up Aug 15 00:56
schestowitz There’s a difference between insults/attacks and debates. Aug 15 00:56
corruptmemory And why what they are giving up for the “quick fix” hurts everyone Aug 15 00:56
schestowitz Yes, but not in a confrontational setting. Aug 15 00:56
corruptmemory Definately Aug 15 00:56
schestowitz In reality, the time of trolls I have in mind would risk jail time if behaving in this way. Aug 15 00:57
schestowitz *type Aug 15 00:57
corruptmemory But we cannot “win” without getting people to take home the message Aug 15 00:57
corruptmemory Perhaps, the world is a big place.  The noise comment you made is appropriate Aug 15 00:57
schestowitz Those who try to ‘pollute’ the message  (they are not there to learn) should still be discouraged or participate not by subverting positive fora. Aug 15 00:58
schestowitz I’d give you an example if you want. Aug 15 00:58
schestowitz In fact, go here: http://groups.google.com/gr… Aug 15 00:58
corruptmemory What I’m referring to is going to “Windows forums” and intelligently engaging.  Perhaps leading a little to get people to question things.  Most are lost to free software, but perhaps some will appreciate your message. Aug 15 00:58
schestowitz See the comments from Gary Stewart (he used the fake name “Moshe Goldfarb”). Aug 15 00:59
schestowitz It’s not a debate. It’s hackling, it’s libel, it’s insults, and it’s FUD. Sometimes threats, sometimes homophobia, necrophilia, you name it… anything to repel readers. Aug 15 01:01
corruptmemory I must claim ignorance here, I’m trying to find the specific example you are tying to point out Aug 15 01:01
*corruptmemory blushes Aug 15 01:01
schestowitz I’m not sure which ones you click on, but I’m trying to give you a glimpse at examples from just minutes ago. Aug 15 01:02
corruptmemory Again no doubt. Perhaps we are talking across topics – I’m simply saying that it is possible to make intelligent comments, both good and bad about FLOSS.  If you’re a troll, well, screw you, if not then welcome to the conversation. Aug 15 01:02
schestowitz Yes, there are few people there who debate. They are not trolls but skeptics. That’s fine. Aug 15 01:04
corruptmemory ok, then we’re agreed.  Not making room for trolls, or paid trouble-makers, as the case may me. Aug 15 01:05
corruptmemory *be Aug 15 01:05
schestowitz BN isn’t harassed much anymore. Trolling redux. Aug 15 01:06
corruptmemory Just that your comment came across as a bit too exclusionary.  Winning hearts and minds means being engaging to the receptive *over* the din of the disruptors Aug 15 01:07
schestowitz Yes, that works. There are a few who are there to be fed (then emit more attacks), not engage in anything constructive. Aug 15 01:08
corruptmemory BTW: found some of the quotes your were referring to.  Shameful and depressing. Aug 15 01:08
schestowitz “Troll” is a very broad umbrella/bag. See http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.ph… Aug 15 01:09
corruptmemory With all you’ve put into BN, consider a book? – a more concise, “narrative” version of all that has happened may be useful for getting the message out to more people (less intimidating as well to the noob) Aug 15 01:10
schestowitz Heh. Well, the contents make more of a tabloid. I wonder if PJ will do a book on SCO at the end. Aug 15 01:11
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corruptmemory Well the site certainly is more tabloid-ish, but a book could provide grounding for a larger audience.  Especially one that is less inclined to put all the pieces together on their own.  It is a lot of work.  I think that BN’s story would have a wider appeal as compared to SCO IMHO. Aug 15 01:13
corruptmemory I confront the difficulty of getting over the typical brainwashing exhausting sometimes. Aug 15 01:14
schestowitz Literature in paper form is a dying thing. Aug 15 01:14
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corruptmemory No doubt, but it still has it’s place. Aug 15 01:14
schestowitz Even Andy just did an eBook recently, re:Massachusetts. Aug 15 01:14
*libervisco_ is now known as libervisco Aug 15 01:14
corruptmemory Just saying, that’s all.  Covering where we are in copyright and patent hell, how we really are being controlled by megacorporations, how the “market” isn’t and so forth, is a lot to absorb for the noobie. Aug 15 01:17
corruptmemory Simply making another case for intelligent engagement. Aug 15 01:18
schestowitz That’s now exactly my expertise though (so-called IPR). That would be PJ. Aug 15 01:18
schestowitz My knowledge is quite different from this, so I can’t offer much insight that exceeds the boundary of most people’s knowledge. Aug 15 01:19
corruptmemory Well, BN is much more narrow than the totality of GL. Aug 15 01:20
schestowitz Books are like trophy. The same goes for patents. They are not necessarily useful and they occupy a lot of one’s time. I was offered to write a MATLAB books when I was 22 and I was ranked #1 in Mathwork’s MATLAB Central. :-) Aug 15 01:21
corruptmemory Now, clearly, it taken a lot of effort on your part, but I’m pleased to see that BN is picked up more and more by the likes of LXer and such.  For those who travel in those circles it’s easy to understand why, but there are still many missing the boat. Aug 15 01:22
corruptmemory Ok, so a book isn’t in your future ;-) Aug 15 01:22
corruptmemory Well, trophy, yes.  It’s an object. Aug 15 01:22
corruptmemory And people still react to objects Aug 15 01:22
schestowitz I don’t think so, no. :-) But I appreciate your suggestion. Aug 15 01:22
schestowitz I just think time can be spent better. Aug 15 01:23
schestowitz I believe RMS too realised that he’s more effective publishing on the Web. Aug 15 01:23
schestowitz As for objects, I can’t appreciate them if I don’t use them. I’ve been paperless for many years. In some ways, ahead of my time, I suppose, but it’ll get more common over time. This means that books, like today’s journals, will lose to the Googles and Kindles of our world. Aug 15 01:24
corruptmemory I don’t doubt the Web’s publishing power.  But it fractures the storyline.  … Aug 15 01:24
corruptmemory Ok, paperless books Aug 15 01:25
corruptmemory Kindles are a no-no though Roy ;-) Aug 15 01:25
schestowitz In that case, blogging is faster. Also, I dislike book for the lack of hyplinking. Aug 15 01:25
schestowitz PDF have an attempt to do biblios with corss-refs, but it’s antiquated _by design_ Aug 15 01:25
corruptmemory Yes, which is shy Kindle is still crud ;-) Aug 15 01:26
corruptmemory *why Aug 15 01:26
corruptmemory It’s the old closed model Aug 15 01:26
schestowitz I don’t like Kindle. I always think of that Bezos the Clown picture from the FSF DBD campign when I hear “kindle” Aug 15 01:26
schestowitz *campaign Aug 15 01:26
corruptmemory f-ing Bezos – jerk Aug 15 01:26
corruptmemory sorry Aug 15 01:26
corruptmemory Just had to say it Aug 15 01:26
corruptmemory ;-) Aug 15 01:26
schestowitz I don’t know him as a person. Watched Wikipedia once though… made me think of Miguel de Icaza… Aug 15 01:27
corruptmemory Well, two examples of smart people gone wrong, sad Aug 15 01:28
schestowitz Gone Loon-light Aug 15 01:29
corruptmemory I don’t know Bezos personally either, but all the business processes patent crap, and the efforts to unseat them is simply unjustifiable. Aug 15 01:29
corruptmemory Right Aug 15 01:29
twitter I don’t think going to Windows forums is productive. Aug 15 01:29
corruptmemory But then we’re just navel gazing Aug 15 01:29
schestowitz Me neither, but the trolls should do /that/ rather than pollute Linux ones. Aug 15 01:29
twitter Going to Computer forums is productive. Aug 15 01:30
twitter There’s a difference. Aug 15 01:30
corruptmemory I think that there are ways to be constructive in a Windows forum. Aug 15 01:30
schestowitz Forums are fast, but not RT. Aug 15 01:30
schestowitz Windows forum = phonecall to support people (probably offshore to the east) Aug 15 01:31
twitter OK, message boards. Aug 15 01:31
corruptmemory The way I was able to finally convince our company to switch form Windows (we still have a bunch, but we consider it legacy) to Linux for our offering was relentlessly pounding home the message of the /technical/ benefits and /why/ FLOSS naturally /generates/ technically superior results (in the long run). Aug 15 01:32
twitter Groups.  Whatever.  If it’s focused on technical issues, I leave it alone. Aug 15 01:32
schestowitz A lot of culture was taken out of technical enthusiasm. Instead it’s a pyrmaid where only a few elites can modify code and even fewer made decsions. Aug 15 01:32
schestowitz Gates: “Windows 2000 already contains features such as the human discipline component, where the PC can send an electric shock through the keyboard if the human does something that does not please Windows.” Aug 15 01:33
corruptmemory Nice Aug 15 01:33
schestowitz He wanted an electric shock on every desk. Aug 15 01:33
corruptmemory Is that a real quote? Aug 15 01:34
twitter Talking to your people at work about freedom or how to solve problems is not what trolls do, even the people who come to “engage” your time for a while. Aug 15 01:34
schestowitz Yes. Aug 15 01:34
corruptmemory BTW: I did mean to ask Roy, how do you keep track of all of this stuff (The “shestowitz” stack ;-) ) Aug 15 01:34
schestowitz twitter: I speak to some friends at the gym about it, but they are not so technical, so it’s focused on technical issues. I avoid talking about Windows. Can’t stand it… bashing and all. Aug 15 01:35
corruptmemory @twitter – true, but I’m not talking about trolls.  The troll injects noise into the signal (often painfully so), but there are those we need to reach with the signal. Aug 15 01:35
schestowitz corruptmemory: just RSS feeds. BTW, are you blackrabbit? Aug 15 01:36
corruptmemory Afraid not, is it impolite to reveal oneself of IRC (i.e. people prefer to guess your identity?)? Aug 15 01:36
corruptmemory Grrr Aug 15 01:37
corruptmemory Sorry wasn’t ment for the public Aug 15 01:37
*corruptmemory blushes Aug 15 01:37
schestowitz *LOL* Aug 15 01:37
twitter The word gets out when you publish and post in general interest papers.  Everyone in my family and most of the people I work with already know what I think.  Just the same, I’d never bother with a Mac or Windows specific board like trolls do.  A lot of these “engagers” are munciins. Aug 15 01:41
schestowitz They say they come to “add balance”. Sound like an assignment to me. Aug 15 01:43
schestowitz Some come there just to bully regulars. Aug 15 01:43
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Tallken back Aug 15 01:49
Tallken i was going to bed Aug 15 01:49
Tallken but noticed this on *ubuntu planet* Aug 15 01:49
Tallken http://lucumr.pocoo.org/cogitations/2008… Aug 15 01:49
Tallken haven’t read it fully Aug 15 01:49
Tallken thought you might like to know Aug 15 01:50
Tallken now i’ve gotta go, gonna sleep Aug 15 01:50
Tallken cya later guys :9 Aug 15 01:50
Tallken :) Aug 15 01:50
schestowitz it seems technical. Aug 15 01:50
twitter Many are just sock puppets.  They write the more outrageous stuff under different names or anonymously. Aug 15 01:50
Tallken ya, no trolling there, but it is informally dismissing patent threats Aug 15 01:51
schestowitz I should probably post that OOXML update before I go to bed. My “you’re tired” hormones seem to have dissipated after I suppressed it around midnight. Aug 15 01:51
twitter I’m adding Peter Gutmann’s story to your Munchkin reference. Aug 15 01:51
Tallken eheh Aug 15 01:51
*Tallken disconnected Aug 15 01:51
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schestowitz Which reference? Aug 15 01:52
schestowitz Oh, as a comment? Aug 15 01:52
twitter http://www.cypherpunks.to/~peter/z… to http://boycottnovell.com/… Aug 15 01:52
schestowitz “I think there are three major types of critics of Mono in the Open Source community. Those who think Microsoft pays Novell for developing Mono to take over the world, those who think Mono is a project that will face patent problems in the future because Microsoft will claim copyright infringement and those who have a problem with Novell because of the patent agreement with Microsoft.” Aug 15 01:52
schestowitz FTA: “Mono is largely based on two EMCA standards (ECMA-334 aka C#) and (ECMA-335 aka CLI or Common Language Infrastructure). ”        …. So /what/? Standards <-> swpatents. Aug 15 01:53
schestowitz “Mono itself is a fantastic piece of software and one of the best programming environments Linux users got since ages. ”   http://www.gnu.org/phil… Aug 15 01:54
schestowitz twitter: see the Bray example, the one from New Zealand also. You know, I warned Andy U that they had called him “anti Microsoft”. Aug 15 01:55
twitter gagg.  “best programming environments in Linux”???  What is he using now, VB? Aug 15 01:55
MinceR i can’t find that quote on that page :> Aug 15 01:56
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twitter I think that was Miguel Aug 15 02:09
twitter No, it was this http://lucumr.pocoo.org/cog… Aug 15 02:10
twitter but you will hear more of it, just like you used to hear IE is a great browser or Visual Studio is wonderful, substitute lame product and praise. Aug 15 02:11
MinceR oh, we’re used to hearing such idiocy from miguel Aug 15 02:16
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yuhong Interestingly, some of this actually supports the idea that the ISO is corrupt. Aug 15 06:30
yuhong http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/f… Aug 15 06:31
yuhong And on the matter of bias, Boycott Novell may be biased, but it is no worse than MS. Aug 15 06:32
schestowitz What do you mean by “biased”? Opposed to corruption? Aug 15 08:12
yuhong I mean, the ODF side is biased toward ODF, while the MS side is biased toward OOXML. Aug 15 08:37
schestowitz What is ODF and what is OOXML? Aug 15 08:38
yuhong The formats, anyway the article I pointed you to is claiming hypocracy, but it actually supports the idea that the ISO is corrupt. Aug 15 08:38
yuhong “IBM stacking ISO vote: Good” Aug 15 08:39
yuhong “MS stacking ISO vote: Bad” Aug 15 08:39
schestowitz Microsoft was supposed to have joined ODF /years/ ago rather than created another set of proprietary formats and call them “open”. The corruption put into making it a ‘standard’ is another matter. Aug 15 08:39
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schestowitz IBM didn’t stack. That’s utter FUD. Aug 15 08:40
yuhong But even if that is true, it would actually support the idea that the ISO is corrupt. Aug 15 08:40
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schestowitz See http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/05/mic… Aug 15 08:40
yuhong And that is my point. Aug 15 08:41
yuhong If IBM did stack, it would made the corruption WORSE. Aug 15 08:41
yuhong It is intended to discredit ODF supporters. Aug 15 08:42
schestowitz Yes, that happened before. Tit for tat… they make accusations against others rather than justify their corruption. Aug 15 08:43
yuhong But if IBM did stack, it would have supported your claim that the ISO is corrupt. Aug 15 08:43
yuhong And that is what is unusual about it. Aug 15 08:44
yuhong In my opinion, the ODF supporters may be biased, but Microsoft is no better. Aug 15 08:44
schestowitz IBM? Aug 15 08:45
schestowitz Did you see my link above? That’s another issue. Aug 15 08:45
schestowitz Since when is IBM the embodiment of ODF? Aug 15 08:45
yuhong Not just IBM. Aug 15 08:47
yuhong But if IBM did stack, it would have SUPPORTED your claim that the ISO is corrupt. Aug 15 08:48
schestowitz See http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/… Aug 15 08:49
schestowitz It’s about Microsoft trying to make it seem like IBM vs Microsoft, not the world vs Microsoft. And that Ars Technica  threat could be gamed by Microsoft and its partners (it has been typical). Aug 15 08:49
schestowitz *thread Aug 15 08:50
yuhong On the matter of the MS OSP. Aug 15 08:50
yuhong Yes future versions may not be covered by it. Aug 15 08:50
yuhong But if you write a program under the current version, it will be covered forever. Aug 15 08:51
schestowitz The OSP is still a problem. It may exclude GPL (#1 rival at Microsoft). Aug 15 08:51
schestowitz Covered by whom? Microsoft could use trolls to sue by proxy, too. Aug 15 08:52
yuhong the OSP Aug 15 08:52
yuhong Yes, the code is covered only by the OSP if it is used to implement the spec. Aug 15 08:53
schestowitz The point is that Microsoft has a lot of space for maneuverer. Aug 15 08:53
schestowitz There are other issues like non-exact replicas and extensions. Anyway, the OSP is old news. Aug 15 08:54
yuhong But the only thing that will happen if you use the code for something else is that you lose the OSP. Aug 15 08:54
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yuhong And on the matter of referenced specs, all the OSP is saying is that it is up to say the standard body to decide what patent protection the referenced specs will have. Aug 15 08:55
yuhong What matters here is abuse of this part, not the part itself. Aug 15 08:56
yuhong The silverlight promises are a lot worse and just as bad as the novell agreement. Aug 15 08:57
schestowitz The latest analysis from Brendan Scott makes it seem repellent. Aug 15 08:57
yuhong But the OSP isn’t that bad, if it is properly used. Aug 15 08:58
schestowitz Well, yuhong, Microsoft slowly becomes a licensing company. They can’t  assure healthy sales in the future (services replaces old-style sales), do they find new ways of leeching. That’s a reason to steer away from Novell, Mono, OOXML… Aug 15 08:58
yuhong Yep, but that is a different matter. Aug 15 08:59
yuhong I am talking about the OSP right now. Aug 15 08:59
schestowitz The OSP is assigned to useless spec nobody will ever implement. It’s a straw man. Aug 15 08:59
yuhong But that is a different matter. Aug 15 08:59
schestowitz It is. Aug 15 08:59
schestowitz It leads to the question: why attempt an implementation in the first place? Aug 15 09:00
PetoKraus anything new in last few days? Aug 15 09:01
PetoKraus (some must reads) Aug 15 09:01
yuhong I’m sure somebody will attempt an implementation of OOXML if it becomes popular enough, similar to how MS implemented ODF in Office 2007. Aug 15 09:02
schestowitz Not really. Depends on what interests you, but Dell has begun putting GNU/Linux on many laptop boards. It’s a massive deployment. Some Malaysia states moved to FOSS also… Aug 15 09:02
schestowitz *malaysian Aug 15 09:02
PetoKraus good :) Aug 15 09:03
yuhong Besides, I’m sure somebody will attempt an implementation of OOXML if it becomes popular enough, similar to how MS implemented ODF in Office 2007. Aug 15 09:03
schestowitz http://www.maximumpc.com/article/fe… Aug 15 09:03
PetoKraus the only news i had past few days was wednesday newspapers… full of olympics, and Russian war. Aug 15 09:03
schestowitz http://www.opendemocracy.net/rus… Aug 15 09:04
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schestowitz “These sites would typically pick a dozen articles from the foreign media – mostly American and British, but also that of the Baltic states and Eastern Europe – and translate them into Russian. Needless to say, they usually do their best to pick the most heinous articles, most of them full of bad reporting and stereotypes about Russia.” Aug 15 09:05
schestowitz “This may seem relatively innocent but Inosmi has quickly gained a large following, which particularly delights in commenting on articles, mostly to report on inaccuracies in the articles and ignorance of their authors.” Aug 15 09:05
schestowitz “Sites like Inosmi do their best perpetuate the myth of the “great brainwashing” — that the Western media is either utterly biased against Russia or simply incompetent – and that the Western public and policy-makers are being constantly kept in the dark as to the true…” Aug 15 09:05
schestowitz “…nature of things in Russia (this in itself is quite comical, as Russians themselves squandered most of their independent media in the early Putin years; arguably, they are in much greater darkness).” Aug 15 09:05
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kentma1 It’s a shame that the Russian system is falling back into its autocratic ways again, and quite surprising that the people seem to be willing to allow it to happen. Aug 15 09:26
schestowitz Every generation or two, people forget and repeat the same mistakes. Watch how India and South Africa still fight the neo-imperialists. Aug 15 09:28
PetoKraus i dare to disagree Aug 15 09:28
schestowitz Please do dare. Aug 15 09:28
kentma1 PetoKraus: about what? Aug 15 09:28
PetoKraus i think russian actions were completely understandable Aug 15 09:28
kentma1 which actions, sorry? Aug 15 09:29
PetoKraus the war. Aug 15 09:29
schestowitz I haven’t been following this, TBH. Aug 15 09:29
kentma1 ah, do you mean invading Georgia? Aug 15 09:29
PetoKraus well invading Aug 15 09:29
schestowitz I was thinking more along the lines of journalistic control in Russia (the article I was referring to). Aug 15 09:29
PetoKraus you don’t call invading afghanistan/iraq an invasion either Aug 15 09:29
PetoKraus moreover, people seem to forget about kosovo…. Aug 15 09:30
kentma1 it’s almost never right to invade anywhere, including afgan. or iraq. Aug 15 09:30
schestowitz Intervention. Aug 15 09:30
PetoKraus kentma1: so, why did georgia invade those two separatistic regions? Aug 15 09:30
PetoKraus they struggle for freedom for 15 years. Aug 15 09:30
kentma1 One of my friends is an ex-Kosovon. Aug 15 09:31
kentma1 PetoKraus:  I believe that they are part of Georgia, are they not?  you can’t really invade yourself, can you? Aug 15 09:31
PetoKraus well, they are part of georgia in the same way as kosovo was the part of serbia Aug 15 09:31
PetoKraus it’s just the difference…. georgia is supported by US, so, their forced authority over those regions is okay. Aug 15 09:32
kentma1 PetoKraus: it’s not forced, though, is it?  It’s just how things are at the moment. Aug 15 09:32
PetoKraus on the other hands, serbs are allies of russia, so, kosovo has the right to be separated. Aug 15 09:32
PetoKraus it’s double measure. Aug 15 09:33
kentma1 PetoKraus: not at all, no. Aug 15 09:33
kentma1 georgia has its borders as they are at the moment.  maybe they’re not right, perhaps they do need to be revised.  maybe, if the Russians really thought that there was a problem, they might’ve discussed it with the rest of the world.  Instead, they did something which just looks like Russian expansionism… Aug 15 09:34
PetoKraus well, serbia’s borders were set for long as well Aug 15 09:35
PetoKraus including kosovo. and montenegro before. Aug 15 09:35
kentma1 I know that they were, yes.  I travelled part of that region before the end of the Russian empire. Aug 15 09:35
PetoKraus you mean, union. Aug 15 09:36
kentma1 No, I meant empire. Aug 15 09:36
PetoKraus so, before 1914? Aug 15 09:36
kentma1 No, in the 1980s. Aug 15 09:36
kentma1 Long after countries had tried to seceed the “union” and been invaded to stop them doing so.  It was an empire. Aug 15 09:36
PetoKraus that was soviet union…. russian empire was ended by those coups during WWI Aug 15 09:36
kentma1 don’t confuse a name with a reality… Aug 15 09:37
kentma1 anything which needs walls to keep its people in is not, in any real sense, a “union”.  There’s nothing voluntary about it. Aug 15 09:37
PetoKraus you don’t need to tell me about that, don’t worry Aug 15 09:38
PetoKraus i am myself from post-communistic bloc Aug 15 09:38
kentma1 I recall, yes.  Are you not slovak? Aug 15 09:38
PetoKraus yes, i am. Aug 15 09:38
kentma1 czecs & slovaks – another interesting combination.  and slovenians, of course. Aug 15 09:39
PetoKraus slovenians doesn’t have much to do with us Aug 15 09:39
kentma1 I know… Aug 15 09:39
PetoKraus and czechs & slovaks – there’s nothing “interesting” about us Aug 15 09:39
PetoKraus we split in peace, both countries agreed on the split… Aug 15 09:40
kentma1 :-) okay. Aug 15 09:40
kentma1 My point was, though, that it wasn’t really a particularly sane marriage in the first place. Aug 15 09:41
PetoKraus well, it was the only way out Aug 15 09:41
kentma1 I know.  I’ve had several czecs & slovaks living in my house over several years… Aug 15 09:41
kentma1 Always been very pleasant, btw. Aug 15 09:42
kentma1 One brought his whole family over for a week for a holiday. Aug 15 09:43
PetoKraus anyway, the situation seems to me the same as was in kosovo-serbian conflict Aug 15 09:44
PetoKraus it’s just, this time the west supports the “big country” instead of the separatistic state. Aug 15 09:45
kentma1 Whilst might be similarities, my feeling is that Russian is trying to expand;  I have grave doubts about Russian government motives here. Aug 15 09:45
schestowitz PetoKraus: that’s not the exception. Aug 15 09:45
kentma1 In the kosovan case, there were people being massacred in their hundreds and perhaps thousands because of their ethnic origin – is this really happening in ossetia? Aug 15 09:46
PetoKraus russians doesn’t need to expand there. They pulled out after teaching Georgia a lesson, they always do that. Aug 15 09:46
kentma1 Ah, the russians need a buffer zone around them.  This, to my mind, is part of showing how they will do it. Aug 15 09:47
PetoKraus yes, that’s it. Aug 15 09:47
kentma1 It’s more to do with posturing to Nato than anything to do with Georgia or Ossetia – I don’t think that they care one jot about either. Aug 15 09:47
kentma1 It was a mistake for Nato to indicate that Georgia could join Nato “later”.  It should’ve either been immediate or not at all.  Anything else is, to my mind, quite aggressive. Aug 15 09:48
kentma1 towards Russia, I mean. Aug 15 09:48
schestowitz Just came across http://technocrat.net/d/2008/8/14/47767 .  In government, sanity comes /after/ money/protection. Judgment is skewed. Aug 15 09:49
kentma1 As the article says, a lot of the problem is a direct function of how bureaucracies work.  You get a lot of people who are /slightly/ dishonest in order to protect their own position, but the overall result is a huge skew. Aug 15 09:57
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schestowitz Many examples here about dietary recommendations, global warming, copyrights, etc: http://lessig.org/blog/2008/07/n… (I know you may have watched it already; if not, please do) Aug 15 10:00
*ZiggyFish (n=ziggyfis@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 10:00
*kentma1 (n=user@host86-155-238-145.range86-155.btcentralplus.com) has left #boycottnovell Aug 15 10:13
*kentma (n=user@ellandroad.demon.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 10:14
*kentma1 (n=user@host86-155-238-145.range86-155.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 10:21
kentma1 anyone using pidgin here? Aug 15 10:21
trmanco i am why? Aug 15 10:21
kentma1 I’m trying to get the festival plugin to work – have you done this? Aug 15 10:22
trmanco no Aug 15 10:22
kentma1 okay :-) Aug 15 10:22
kentma1 I can’t make it work, anyway. Aug 15 10:22
trmanco :P Aug 15 10:22
trmanco maybe its an old plugin and doesn’t work with the latest versions of pidgin Aug 15 10:23
kentma1 hmm interesting – dmesg shows a festival segfault – wonder if that’s related? Aug 15 10:23
kentma1 trmanco: well, it’s all from equivalent age debs, but maybe the upstream is not up to date. Aug 15 10:24
schestowitz Sounds bad for a festival. Aug 15 10:24
kentma1 schestowitz: festival works at the cli, though. Aug 15 10:24
schestowitz http://freshmeat.net/projec… Hmmmm… Aug 15 10:25
trmanco I don’t know Aug 15 10:26
kentma1 schestowitz: I just found that and was having a look… Aug 15 10:26
schestowitz Surrounding yourself by Hawkings? Aug 15 10:27
kentma1 hehe… I just like the idea, really.  It’s a little disturbing that the last update is 18th oct 07… perhaps it’s just not being maintained. Aug 15 10:27
*kentma has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Aug 15 10:27
kentma1 My alter ego just left. Aug 15 10:27
*moparx has quit (“leaving”) Aug 15 10:46
schestowitz twitter: “Why the F.U.D. against OpenGL 3.0? [...] So, it was with some interest to read on TheRegister and Slashdot that the release of OpenGL 3.0 was met with heavy resistance by existing developers.[...] That’s why the actual developers at SIGGRAPH responded so differently than the reports from TheReg and SlashDot would have people believe.” (source Aug 15 11:40
*ZiggyFish has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Aug 15 11:43
schestowitz I’ll write about the whole Slashdot/OGL thing later. Aug 15 11:45
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) Aug 15 11:48
*ZiggyFish (n=ziggyfis@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 11:59
trmanco http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/news/… Aug 15 12:08
trmanco I wish portuguese schools were like this Aug 15 12:09
schestowitz Thanks, I saw that. BECTA can’t be trusted though. Aug 15 12:09
trmanco whos is BECTA Aug 15 12:10
trmanco ? Aug 15 12:10
trmanco who* Aug 15 12:10
trmanco oh forget it Aug 15 12:11
trmanco I found it in the article, must of missed it Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Abolish BECTA Now – http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolbox/ope… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Ian Lynch’s take on the BECTA fiasco – http://www.freesoftwaremagazin… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Becta’s Open Source Contract To Alpha Plus Outrages Other Bidders – http://oss.itproportal.com/articles/20… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz How not to negotiate a software contract – http://blogs.the451group.com/openso… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Open Source UK attacks schools quango – http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Row erupts over schools open-source project – http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz The Groklaw effect hits Becta. And yes, I am coining a new term – http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/col… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz The OSC’s open letter to Becta – http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,10… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz The Case for Linux in the Classroom – http://teachertechblog.com/the-… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz BECTA Rubbishes Almost the Entire UK Open Source Industry – http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolbox/op… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz A learning experience – http://blogs.the451group.com/openso… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Becta schools deal stuns British open-istas – http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/1… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Becta, open source and education: Too little, too late? – http://www.itpro.co.uk/603639/bect… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Lawmaker blasts U.K. government on Microsoft policy – http://www.news.com/Lawmaker-blasts-… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Becta’s schools software scheme reported to EC – http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007… Aug 15 12:11
schestowitz Becta under fire for procurement framework – http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006… Aug 15 12:11
*ZiggyFish has quit (“Leaving.”) Aug 15 12:18
trmanco you are right, becta can’t be trusted :| Aug 15 12:19
*Tallken (n=Tallken@62.169.101.51.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 12:30
*Tallken has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Aug 15 13:13
twitter Good morning. Aug 15 13:40
twitter reading … Aug 15 13:40
schestowitz Hi there. Aug 15 13:41
*youfeelverytired (i=sleep@gateway/tor/x-444163bec0b9dc91) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 13:42
twitter Ahhh, politics.  Georgia and Iraqi oil were pay offs to Russia and China to placate them for the pending conquest of Iran. Aug 15 13:43
youfeelverytired the olympics is the perfect smokescreen for Russia’s Georgian bitchslap Aug 15 13:44
youfeelverytired two thug countries hosting games Aug 15 13:44
twitter Missed the source on OpenGL 3 FUD but don’t need it.  The Slashdot article was clearly insane. Aug 15 13:45
youfeelverytired who reads that anymore Aug 15 13:47
youfeelverytired real nerds ditched it long time ago Aug 15 13:47
youfeelverytired Slashdot is a wannabe CNN/boingboing/make hybrid Aug 15 13:47
youfeelverytired with digg.slashdot.org (idle.slashdot.org) Aug 15 13:48
youfeelverytired it’s pathetic Aug 15 13:48
schestowitz I’m writing about Slashdot at the moment. Just give me 5 minutes and it’s done. Aug 15 13:49
youfeelverytired hope it’s a good one Aug 15 13:49
twitter Lots of people still read Slashdot.  My wife took a poll of her baby blog groups and got interesting results. Aug 15 13:50
youfeelverytired hope you have a new whimsical photo for it Aug 15 13:50
twitter You would not imagine anyone in that group even knowing about Slashdot but they did. Aug 15 13:50
youfeelverytired Yes, lots of -people- read Slashdot, but I said nerds Aug 15 13:50
youfeelverytired exactly Aug 15 13:50
twitter I still don’t know what a nerd is. Aug 15 13:51
youfeelverytired those with their breast out or brains excised Aug 15 13:51
youfeelverytired watch Real Genius Aug 15 13:51
youfeelverytired I’m embarking on a 48 hr. sleep period next week Aug 15 13:51
youfeelverytired as an experiment Aug 15 13:51
youfeelverytired phase 1 is 48 hours, phase 2 is 120 Aug 15 13:52
youfeelverytired only waking to drink formulated nutrient rich packets and disposing of waste and returning to sleep Aug 15 13:52
schestowitz Slashdot has many developers – minds Microsoft wants to wash. Aug 15 13:54
youfeelverytired Microsoft is like HIV Aug 15 13:55
twitter Developers, various admins and web people, who’ve all found free software. Aug 15 13:55
twitter M$ would like to keep them on Windoze and tries to scare them about various parts of free software.  “Free software is great for this but can’t do that” is the main line but “that” refers to everything. Aug 15 13:57
youfeelverytired I tried watching the Olympics this year, only to see it’s been sodomized by a certain monopoly Aug 15 13:58
twitter The comments were destroyed long ago.  I’ve noticed a decline in the news selection in the last year or so. Aug 15 13:58
MinceR i still find slashdot useful Aug 15 13:58
youfeelverytired now they want you to infect your system with their Silvercream Aug 15 13:58
MinceR it’s nicely silly Aug 15 13:58
youfeelverytired Slashdot is not news for nerds any longer Aug 15 13:58
MinceR it still contains news for nerds Aug 15 13:59
youfeelverytired only if you digg :P Aug 15 13:59
youfeelverytired Silvercream is good for incuding anal warts, I hear Aug 15 13:59
twitter NewYorkCountryLawyer stories are very good, but their free software coverage has fallen off.  I’m getting more out of BN now. Aug 15 13:59
youfeelverytired Microsoft Silvercream needs to be rubbed in deep for maximum results Aug 15 13:59
youfeelverytired Microsoft Moonbear is the hippy equiv Aug 15 14:00
MinceR and mixed with some Flash Aug 15 14:00
MinceR isn’t that Moonshine? Aug 15 14:00
youfeelverytired it’s a gay hairy bigfoot who loves long hugs Aug 15 14:00
youfeelverytired that’s what he injects into the rump Aug 15 14:00
youfeelverytired he looks friendly, but he has the letters M and S squirming around in his damaged semen Aug 15 14:01
youfeelverytired multiple monopoly syndrome Aug 15 14:01
youfeelverytired leaves you wheelchair bound Aug 15 14:01
youfeelverytired the drops of semen, when you examine them under microscope, are microscopic chairs with bear heads and dolphin tails Aug 15 14:02
youfeelverytired the semen smells slightly of grapefruit, with a tinge of lime Aug 15 14:02
youfeelverytired One Night In Ballmer plays on the Olympic site if you have gnash Aug 15 14:03
youfeelverytired he keeps smiling at the camera in his high heels Aug 15 14:03
twitter Hey, wow.  A reasonable Slashdot write up on BBC’s iPlayer.  http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl… Aug 15 14:04
youfeelverytired why do they call it iPlayer, isn’t it flash? Aug 15 14:04
schestowitz Okay, posted. Aug 15 14:05
schestowitz youfeelverytired: easy with the language there, please. Aug 15 14:07
*_Doug (n=emacsuse@193.122.47.146) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 14:16
_Doug Hi there, what’s the name of the network monitor in Linux, Wireshark or something .. Aug 15 14:16
_Doug Sorry, too much beer lastnight .. Aug 15 14:17
*Received a CTCP PING 1218806449 from _Doug Aug 15 14:17
_Doug Wireshark used to be known as Ethereal Aug 15 14:19
_Doug ping anyone … ? Aug 15 14:20
schestowitz Hey there! Aug 15 14:21
_Doug Hi there .. Aug 15 14:21
_Doug My brain hurts .. Aug 15 14:21
schestowitz Aren’t there many monitors? What do you need it for? Aug 15 14:22
_Doug I just forgot the name Aug 15 14:22
schestowitz Too much Tea with the gf, eh? Aug 15 14:22
_Doug I want to see what’s connected here .. I’m just downlading portable apps .. Aug 15 14:22
schestowitz Don’t KDE or GNOME come with something by default? Aug 15 14:23
_Doug I’ll send you a sample email .. xxxx Aug 15 14:23
_Doug Yea, but I’m not a home … Aug 15 14:23
_Doug I want to see who is watching me .. Aug 15 14:24
schestowitz KSysGuard has good monitors Aug 15 14:24
_Doug There’s a number of apps on her, spying on my web access .. Aug 15 14:24
schestowitz Why not SSH to another machine and work care-free with just an encrypted stream? Aug 15 14:25
_Doug every time you reboot, it wipes everything .. Aug 15 14:25
_Doug Well, that’s the current project .. move to a USB device .. Aug 15 14:26
schestowitz Kind of like a Live CD for the wrong reasons. Aug 15 14:26
_Doug Well, yea .. Aug 15 14:27
_Doug The BBC recently announced moving to ‘open standard’ Aug 15 14:29
youfeelverytired _Doug, everyone is watching Aug 15 14:30
_Doug Notice they said ‘open standards’ and not open source and notice they neglected it’s still tied to DRM Aug 15 14:30
youfeelverytired _Doug, I’m watching right now! Aug 15 14:30
_Doug watching, I have no secrets .. as I just explained … :( Aug 15 14:30
_Doug watching, why would that be a bother ? Aug 15 14:31
youfeelverytired I WANT SEA CRATES! Aug 15 14:31
youfeelverytired watch ng Aug 15 14:31
youfeelverytired that’s my name dont wear it out Aug 15 14:31
youfeelverytired you can call me watch Aug 15 14:31
_Doug I see you use tor .. Aug 15 14:32
_Doug Of course the peopel running tor wouldn’t keep records :) Aug 15 14:32
youfeelverytired I do? Aug 15 14:32
youfeelverytired I keep records! Aug 15 14:32
youfeelverytired but only 78′s Aug 15 14:32
_Doug What distro do you use ? Aug 15 14:33
youfeelverytired Windows Aug 15 14:33
*mib_hhddlb (i=cebf154a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c6fe9ac67d5f0023) has left #boycottnovell Aug 15 14:33
_Doug Trator .. Aug 15 14:33
youfeelverytired Windows 7! Aug 15 14:33
youfeelverytired cutting edge Aug 15 14:33
_Doug You mean vapouware .. quick lets announce Windows 2011 so as to hinder Linux adoption .. Aug 15 14:34
youfeelverytired why did you come into boycottnovell to talk about security? Aug 15 14:34
_Doug So with that announcment, they admit the Visto~1 is a ile of steaming manure .. Aug 15 14:34
youfeelverytired I run Windows 7 because it makes me sterile Aug 15 14:35
_Doug Cause I forgot the name of the app, and I thought roy would help me out … Aug 15 14:35
youfeelverytired it decapitates my sperm Aug 15 14:35
_Doug Do you have an uptodate license to produce sperm ? Aug 15 14:35
youfeelverytired if summin is watchin how u know yr box aint rooted Aug 15 14:36
youfeelverytired if your box be rooted you cant trust sysoutputs Aug 15 14:36
youfeelverytired sure do, it’s called Windows jackit 2.0 Aug 15 14:36
_Doug I don’t trust the logs, like once I caught the other sysop rumaging through my files. Aug 15 14:36
youfeelverytired sleeveless shirt fitted with diodes Aug 15 14:36
_Doug I found the evidence in his home directory .. ! Aug 15 14:37
youfeelverytired you in a dorm Aug 15 14:37
youfeelverytired sounds like it Aug 15 14:37
_Doug Like I said, I’m going to be using a USB device from now on .. Aug 15 14:37
_Doug No, ISP … Aug 15 14:38
_Doug Of course I keep my files in a directory owned by him, so as he’ll never go looking for it .. :) Aug 15 14:38
youfeelverytired dont you have a security policy? Aug 15 14:38
_Doug Haaaaaa !!! Aug 15 14:38
_Doug He gave his girlfriend her own domain name .. Aug 15 14:39
_Doug OK, talk about Linux … say something interesting … Aug 15 14:39
_Doug “Industry experts have speculated that Windows 7 will also have more virtualisation technologies onboard as well as tools that make it easier for people to get at their data and programs as they use different machines” Aug 15 14:43
_Doug What was this called befire Microsoft innovated it ? Aug 15 14:43
_Doug Does NoMAchine know they are violating Microsofts’ IP ? Aug 15 14:43
youfeelverytired _Doug, do you like UK Gay Guide 2005 from Gay Britain Network? Aug 15 14:44
_Doug Haa, is this fishhead ? Aug 15 14:45
_Doug Were you in London recently ? Aug 15 14:45
youfeelverytired is that yes? Aug 15 14:46
_Doug Sorry, not Gay .. but whatever floats you boat. Aug 15 14:46
_Doug What distro do you use, again ? Aug 15 14:46
schestowitz youfeelverytired: what’s the matter with you? Aug 15 14:47
youfeelverytired your IP shows up as a top visitor there Aug 15 14:47
youfeelverytired _Doug, why do you want this information? Aug 15 14:47
_Doug What distro do you use ? Aug 15 14:47
youfeelverytired schestowitz, what do you mean? Aug 15 14:47
youfeelverytired _Doug, why? Aug 15 14:47
_Doug This is a Linux forum, I thought it was relevant Aug 15 14:48
twitter schestowitz:  I liked the Sabotage and Novell articles.  Nice tie together of various threads. Aug 15 14:48
schestowitz youfeelverytired: first you spread some bad language and now this… Aug 15 14:48
_Doug youfeelverytired: how many distros have you tried ? Aug 15 14:48
youfeelverytired _Doug, sure is, persistent one Aug 15 14:48
youfeelverytired schestowitz, absolve me of my sins, Father Roy Aug 15 14:49
youfeelverytired _Doug, piss off Aug 15 14:49
twitter I’m feeling tired…. Aug 15 14:49
_Doug Aw, be nice, you’re not on COLA now .. ;) Aug 15 14:49
_Doug youfeelverytired: why can’t you tell us what distro you use ? Aug 15 14:50
youfeelverytired _Doug, no, I’m on boycottnovell Aug 15 14:50
_Doug OK, tell us something about Novell and the MS deal Aug 15 14:50
youfeelverytired _Doug, I told you, Windows 7 Aug 15 14:51
_Doug HAve you ever used Linux ? Aug 15 14:51
youfeelverytired _Doug, no Aug 15 14:51
_Doug Why are you here ? Aug 15 14:51
youfeelverytired _Doug, to listen to your dumb ass Aug 15 14:52
schestowitz I guess that’s why we used to black Tor. Aug 15 14:52
schestowitz *block,I mean. Aug 15 14:52
youfeelverytired schestowitz, would you like me asking you the same question repeatedly? Aug 15 14:52
youfeelverytired schestowitz, isn’t this a bit rude? Aug 15 14:52
youfeelverytired block _Doug UK Gay guy Aug 15 14:52
*schestowitz removes voice from youfeelverytired Aug 15 14:53
youfeelverytired with his magic proxy Aug 15 14:53
*youfeelverytired (i=sleep@gateway/tor/x-444163bec0b9dc91) has left #boycottnovell (“Leaving”) Aug 15 14:53
twitter thanks Aug 15 14:53
schestowitz We used to have trolls like that. Aug 15 14:53
*_Doug_ (n=emacsuse@193.122.47.146) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 14:53
schestowitz In the early days anyway. Aug 15 14:53
_Doug_ youfeelverytired: what’s problematic about what distro you use ? Aug 15 14:54
_Doug_ aw, he’s gone Aug 15 14:54
schestowitz The person who asked me to set up an IRC channel is a Tor user, so after it was done we had trolls spreading bad language. Then, [H]omer set it up so that they cannot enter. When I enabled mibbit I had to change this. Then, the same guy who proposed this channel (using Tor) asked for concessions too. Aug 15 14:55
schestowitz Rest assured it’ll be back. [H]omer reckons it’s Scott Douglas and other COLA trolls. Aug 15 14:55
*_Doug_ (n=emacsuse@193.122.47.146) has left #boycottnovell Aug 15 14:56
*_Doug_ (n=emacsuse@193.122.47.146) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 15 14:56
_Doug_ Why am I listed twice ? Aug 15 14:56
schestowitz FreeNode thing. One will expire. Aug 15 15:00
_Doug_ Novell and Microsoft—Working Together for Customers Aug 15 15:00
_Doug_ http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/ Aug 15 15:00
kentma1 ‘cos you dropped out… Aug 15 15:00
_Doug_ “Many enterprises have been frustrated by the lack of interoperability between Windows* and Linux*” Aug 15 15:01
MinceR the title is correct, except for the word “for” Aug 15 15:01
schestowitz I’ve just posted something about Microsoft/Novell. It’ll be so much easier to warn people when/if Microsoft buys Novell. Aug 15 15:01
_Doug_ Haaaa .. that’s because a certain enterprise goes to a great deal of trouble to make sure they do .. :) Aug 15 15:01
*libervisco has quit (Remote closed the connection) Aug 15 15:01
_Doug_ Computer can talk to most any other computer, it’s what they were designed to do .. Aug 15 15:02
_Doug_ on the web site: ‘an error occurred while processing this directive’ Aug 15 15:02
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  29. Links 18/10/2014: New ELive, Android Expansion

    Links for the day



  30. Another Fresh Blow to Software Patents (and With Them Patent Trolls)

    Another new development shows that more burden of proof is to be put on the litigant, thus discouraging the most infamous serial patent aggressors and reducing the incentive to settle with a payment out of court


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