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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 27th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 5:58 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

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twitter valac – C# like language for the GObject system Aug 27 01:34
twitter it’s from gnome but I don’t see mono in the dependencies.  Then again, I don’t see why people talk about C# in the first place. Aug 27 01:37
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dustindiamond i bought a tshirt Aug 27 04:32
dustindiamond to save screech’s house Aug 27 04:32
dustindiamond did I save it yet? Aug 27 04:32
dustindiamond i like his pron videos Aug 27 04:33
dustindiamond that dustin dude is cool Aug 27 04:33
dustindiamond I worship him Aug 27 04:33
dustindiamond <3 Aug 27 04:33
dustindiamond screech fo life! Aug 27 04:33
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schestowitz A troll from Tor was here again. Aug 27 06:13
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dsmith_ http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffb… – OEM’s attempt to fix VISTA problems themselves. Aug 27 06:35
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schestowitz “Calls for porting Tomboy to Windows (and maybe even Mac OS X), adding geocode filtering to RSS and fully supporting Amazon’s Elastic Cloud 2 are just a few of the ideas put forth in this year’s annual Hack Week.” ( http://www.daniweb.com/b… ) Aug 27 08:15
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trmanco http://blogs.the451group.com/openso… Aug 27 12:17
schestowitz Yes, I brought this up yesterday. Aug 27 12:18
schestowitz The BW idiocy quotes the wrong figures. Aug 27 12:19
schestowitz It claims decline is funding, despite it bring an all-time high. Regarding Byfield, search the name in BoycottNovell. We’ve been through this before. Aug 27 12:19
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schestowitz I’ll leave that as a comment. Aug 27 12:20
trmanco ok Aug 27 12:20
schestowitz I’ll just copy my immediate thoughts. I don’t like his attention-grabbing headline. Aug 27 12:20
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MinceR the author makes the usual mistake of considering free software and open software two distinct things Aug 27 12:33
schestowitz They overlap Aug 27 12:34
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MinceR i haven’t seen examples of software/license matching exactly one of {the Free Software Definition; the Open Source Definition} Aug 27 12:36
schestowitz True. The *GPLs are approved by the OSI. Aug 27 12:38
MinceR the way i see it, the FSD defines the goals and the OSD defines criteria that are pretty much the only way to attain those goals and pretty much guarantees them Aug 27 12:47
schestowitz Free software seems like a subset of “open source”. Aug 27 12:48
PetoKraus well yes Aug 27 12:52
trmanco schestowitz, I found a Mono “defender” on my blog Aug 27 14:00
trmanco looks like we in Portugal have Mono fanboys too :| Aug 27 14:00
schestowitz Yes, I know. Aug 27 14:01
schestowitz Many developers seem to come from there. I’ll write about Mono shortly. Aug 27 14:01
schestowitz trmanco: those ‘defenders’ are everywhere. Ignore them. They try to police critics. Aug 27 14:01
trmanco I think I will give him a reply, after all, its the first one on my blog :P Aug 27 14:02
trmanco schestowitz, this guy is a mon developer I think Aug 27 14:06
trmanco Paulo Aboim Pinto Aug 27 14:06
trmanco know him? Aug 27 14:06
trmanco found him on google and he is registered on lots of M$ related things Aug 27 14:07
schestowitz I never heard the name. It’s actually good to respond, but they’ll never stop. Aug 27 14:07
schestowitz Some of them are very innocent in the sense that Mono people told them to develop in Mono, so now they are stuck and they defend their choices. Aug 27 14:07
trmanco so I’ll go with your suggestion and not respond to this guy Aug 27 14:07
trmanco http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&… Aug 27 14:08
schestowitz A lot of Mono advocacy can be traced back to the maker of Mono with exclusive rights on it (Novell). Aug 27 14:08
schestowitz “Paulo Aboim Pinto, Senior Consultant, Portugal” http://www.linkedin.com/pub/2/139/A67 Aug 27 14:09
trmanco December 23, 2006 Aug 27 14:09
trmanco     * CodeCompletionDatabase.ReadClass, Mike Morano Aug 27 14:09
trmanco     * ASP.NET plugin: Code Completion in HTML, Paulo Aboim Pinto Aug 27 14:09
trmanco you can find his name around here too -> http://osdir.com/ml/gnome.mono.monodev… Aug 27 14:10
trmanco this guy said that java sucked :| Aug 27 14:12
trmanco as a cross platform programming language :| Aug 27 14:13
trmanco here is his comment: Aug 27 14:14
trmanco “Não entendo pq possas achar que o Mono é uma problema .. ou mesmo um perigo. Aug 27 14:14
trmanco Eu defendo o cross-platform e já que o JAVA não vale nada e é demasiado lento (mesmo comparado com o mono) a alternativa é mesmo esta … MONO. Aug 27 14:14
trmanco Seja como for .. havia algumas aplicações que não conhecia que agora vou experimentar. Aug 27 14:14
trmanco Excelente post, para quem diz que não gosta do Mono. Apresentas software de qualidade rasoável que são uma alternativa a outros de péssima qualidade no mundo Linux. Aug 27 14:14
trmanco Paulo Aboim Pinto Aug 27 14:14
trmanco Odivelas – Portugal” Aug 27 14:14
trmanco He even has some words that aren’t even spelled correctly Aug 27 14:15
schestowitz Well, yes… they bash Java too. That’s a big problem. Novell is creating a monster and it’s fighting /for/ Microsoft. They both promote .NET at the expense of open alternatives. Aug 27 14:18
trmanco astroturf Aug 27 14:19
trmanco :| Aug 27 14:19
twitter I’m just reading that Byfield article.  What an ass. Aug 27 14:20
trmanco btw, the guy is using a proxy from france Aug 27 14:21
schestowitz Which huy? Aug 27 14:21
schestowitz *guy Aug 27 14:21
schestowitz If he puts his real name there, it might not be an issue. Aug 27 14:21
trmanco pedro aboim pinto Aug 27 14:21
twitter Byfield Aug 27 14:22
schestowitz http://www.google.com/search?sourcei… Aug 27 14:22
schestowitz http://brucebyfield.wordpress.co… Aug 27 14:24
twitter No mistaking the objectivity there. Aug 27 14:26
twitter That last one is a hatchet piece. Aug 27 14:27
schestowitz Not the first though. I believe it started when he defended things like the OOXML (not necessarily the scandals). Aug 27 14:29
twitter He says someone is prodding the animosity, but the last one is pure malice and right along the “Linux Hater” talking points. Aug 27 14:30
MinceR Gartner has a >0 credibility? :) Aug 27 14:32
twitter Analysts work hard to make it look like they are not bought.  Every once and a while they tell the truth. Aug 27 14:50
schestowitz <0 credibility Aug 27 14:52
schestowitz “<schestowitz> <0 credibility” looks bad. Make that “<schestowitz> Gartner<0 credibility” Aug 27 14:53
MinceR :) Aug 27 14:56
MinceR then your list needs fixing :> Aug 27 14:57
schestowitz I’ve just posted about Mono: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/… I made use of the input from trmanco. Aug 27 14:59
PetoKraus who is bruce byfield Aug 27 14:59
PetoKraus he really SHOULD update his profile picture Aug 27 14:59
schestowitz Canadian journalist, formerly of Progeny Aug 27 15:00
schestowitz PetoKraus: which profile picture? He has several. Aug 27 15:00
twitter Blusters a lot and has taken an interest in “Open Source” Aug 27 15:00
PetoKraus schestowitz: that…. http://a.wordpress.com/avatar/bruc… Aug 27 15:00
trmanco cool Aug 27 15:00
schestowitz What’s wrong with it, PetoKraus? Aug 27 15:03
PetoKraus oh, never mind. Aug 27 15:03
schestowitz Here’s Pruce: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3226/2462… Aug 27 15:03
schestowitz Oops. Bruce I mean (typo). Aug 27 15:03
PetoKraus he looks better there than on that portrait pic Aug 27 15:04
twitter He’d look better if I had never read what he wrote.  Where did he stand up for OOXML? Aug 27 15:05
twitter http://boycottnovell.com/2007/1… Aug 27 15:06
twitter Let’s count the talking points here http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/entdev/artic… Aug 27 15:07
twitter 1.   interoperability with Microsoft technologies Aug 27 15:08
twitter 2.   conspiracy theories Aug 27 15:09
twitter 3.   neither side has done much to promote its cause Aug 27 15:09
twitter 4.   the paranoid element in the community Aug 27 15:10
schestowitz Are these quotes? Aug 27 15:10
schestowitz I remember some points, but I never read his articles. I just stare at bit of them. Aug 27 15:10
schestowitz *bits Aug 27 15:10
twitter 5.   Whether or not OOXML becomes an official ISO standard, it will still become unofficial standard, simply because Microsoft Office is the main office program used on computers. Aug 27 15:11
twitter Yes, these are quotes. Aug 27 15:11
twitter 6.   why not get a jump on supporting it so that free software isn’t left behind? Aug 27 15:12
schestowitz Yes, that’s the spirit. Aug 27 15:12
schestowitz Stallman was such a defeatist, wasn’t he? Aug 27 15:12
twitter 7.  Even if Microsoft doesn’t adhere to the ISO standard itself … , working to get more details into the OOXML standard will still help free software developers to a degree. Aug 27 15:13
schestowitz What were the changes of a GNU system that outnumbered UNIXes, eh? Aug 27 15:13
twitter 8.    the Foundation’s accusers are talking in political terms Aug 27 15:13
schestowitz I bet his article got lots of InBound links… from MSDN blogs. Aug 27 15:13
twitter I’ll bet you are right.  M$ rewards it’s tools. Aug 27 15:15
schestowitz No, no…. he’s one of the good guys usually. Aug 27 15:15
schestowitz In terms of his stance on Microsoft, that’s just bad. He is a Microsoft apologist but at the same time also a Free software supporter. Aug 27 15:16
twitter With friends like that, who needs enemies?  At best, he’s been manipulated.  At worst, he’s sold out. Aug 27 15:17
twitter He consistently dismisses ethical concerns as the product of mental illness and he often gets technical predictions wrong.  OOXML has gone nowhere. Aug 27 15:19
twitter 9.    More than one blogger has suggested that no plans should be made to implement OOXML despite its seeming inevitability one way or the other. Those holding this belief even claim — erroneously — that KOffice’s developers share it. Aug 27 15:20
twitter Like he knows what KDE is doing. Aug 27 15:20
twitter That blogger, I think, was Richard Stallman. Aug 27 15:20
benJIman koffice people just don’t have the resources to implement it. They’re not taking some political stance. Aug 27 15:21
benJIman I’m finding ooxml support in openoffice increasigly useful, as I get sent ooxml documents even more often than .doc now. Aug 27 15:21
benJIman Never ODF though, as sensible people send pdfs anyway. Aug 27 15:22
PetoKraus well Aug 27 15:22
PetoKraus i always send odf Aug 27 15:22
PetoKraus ;) Aug 27 15:22
PetoKraus except job applications, there i send pdf Aug 27 15:23
benJIman ODF is pretty silly if the recipient does not need to edit it. Aug 27 15:23
twitter That’s sad for you.  ODF, by all reasonable measures is still more common than ODF.  Google docs make sure of that. Aug 27 15:23
benJIman You don’t know if they have the same fonts, the same version may render it differently, etc. Aug 27 15:23
twitter Damn shame M$ keeps doing their users font disservices. Aug 27 15:23
benJIman PDF is more sensible for a final-format before printing. Aug 27 15:23
PetoKraus yes. that’s why i send to important places (job) PDF’s Aug 27 15:23
twitter Koffice is GPL, how can you say they have not taken a political stance? Aug 27 15:24
PetoKraus also, i don’t feel like my boss editing my CV ;) Aug 27 15:24
benJIman If you want the copy at the user’s end to look like yours then there’s PDF or postscript. If they just need the information why not use plain text or hypertext. If they need to be able to edit it then there’s always a document. Aug 27 15:24
benJIman PetoKraus: One can edit PDFs, just not easily reflow text etc. Aug 27 15:25
MinceR 162729 < twitter> That’s sad for you.  ODF, by all reasonable measures is still more common than ODF.  Google docs make sure of that. Aug 27 15:25
MinceR one of those ODFs should be PDF :) Aug 27 15:25
benJIman twitter: No-one has contributed a patch that was rejected. Aug 27 15:25
schestowitz Just a clarification to all: benJIman is at SUSE. Aug 27 15:25
schestowitz *SuSE. Aug 27 15:25
benJIman Only visiting. Aug 27 15:26
twitter Lack of community action is sane.  OOXML is technically impossible to implement. Aug 27 15:26
twitter Does Koffice do the last BS “standard” from M$, Rich Text? Aug 27 15:26
twitter 10.   The trouble is that they begin with imperatives that are utterly irreconcilable with those held by the other side. And what that means is that finding common ground between them is next to impossible. Both sides can only express their viewpoints over and over, growing more frustrated by the other side’s apparent inability to hear. Aug 27 15:26
schestowitz Only Bruce is ‘sane’ then. Aug 27 15:27
twitter Good grief, there are three pages of this drivel. Aug 27 15:27
schestowitz That’s why I never read it. Aug 27 15:28
schestowitz I just spotted weasel words like “conspiracy theorist” and then responded. There’s more than one such article. Aug 27 15:28
benJIman twitter: If you actually read the interview [ http://dot.kde.org/1194021253 ] You’ll see that the reasons for not implementing ooxml are entirely practical. This has been re-iterated in several blogs since then. Aug 27 15:28
twitter Well, that makes Bruce entirely wrong.  There are both practical and ethical reasons to avoid M$XML.  I think the good people at KDE are bright enough to see both. Aug 27 15:30
benJIman I highly doubt that they would reject the contribution of a import filter for ooxml, but since no-one has or is likely to contribute one it’s only idle speculation. Aug 27 15:30
twitter They have their work cut out getting ODF working and have no need to chase M$’s tail. Aug 27 15:30
*schestowitz was never sent /any/ OOXML file, not even in lists. Plenty of ODF though. Aug 27 15:31
twitter Is anyone not on a corporate payroll torturing themselves with M$XML? Aug 27 15:31
MinceR i’m afraid in the end we’ll be forced to support OOXML anyway Aug 27 15:32
twitter You might as well say that you will be running Vista. Aug 27 15:32
MinceR unless the market share of m$ office decreases significantly Aug 27 15:32
schestowitz MinceR:  Google Apps gains traction Aug 27 15:33
MinceR but will it be enough to move backwards places like hungarian authorities? Aug 27 15:33
schestowitz Google Apps does ODF and PDF. It also does /legacy/  Office files, but no OOXML. Many business go in that direction and they pass around URLs (Google), not files. ODF is built in, on the cloud. Aug 27 15:33
twitter When it comes down to it, OO is free and ODF will prevail.  Those clinging to DOC and M$XML will be increasingly isolated. Aug 27 15:34
schestowitz This means that you needn’t even ask your peer to install ODF-compatible s/w, not even pseudo-compatible like that ‘promised’ vapourware that’s MSO07 SP. Aug 27 15:34
schestowitz twitter: OOo is not the future. Aug 27 15:35
twitter Everyone is going to know that OO will work when there’s a conflict. Aug 27 15:35
schestowitz It’s good for offline access to files, but even /I/ don’t use an office suite. It’s an overkill. To businesses, things are bound to change also. Microsoft itself is now yelling at its partners, saying that they might die if they don’t go Web-based. Aug 27 15:36
twitter I’m not a big OO fan, but I can tell a M$ Office user that they can work with me by downloading a free program.  That works a lot easier than me having to buy a new computer and $450 with of software. Aug 27 15:36
trmanco $450 minimum Aug 27 15:36
twitter Don’t be distracted, the war is fought in exchanges like that. Aug 27 15:37
twitter Baton Rouge area schools tried to push out OOXML but I don’t think it worked out well for them. Aug 27 15:37
twitter 11.   those who oppose the Foundation — not without reason — need to show their commitment to the greater community, rather than to the gut-level thrill of the attack. Aug 27 15:40
twitter 12.   The time for opposition is over, and the search for solutions needs to begin. Aug 27 15:41
twitter More defeatism.  OOXML was in the midst of a huge corruption scandal and this clown was telling people to give up and suck Ballmer’s new format Aug 27 15:42
twitter Ah ha, he takes a swipe at PJ Aug 27 15:43
twitter 13.   Were people like Pamela Jones of Groklaw or Alberto Barrionuevo of Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure to take similar steps towards cooperation, the issue might soon be solved. Aug 27 15:43
twitter The whole article a hatchet job on both the Gnome people and their advocates.  Bruce is not a friend of software freedom or Open Software (whatever that is) Aug 27 15:45
schestowitz I never saw that before. Aug 27 15:58
schestowitz Wow. Aug 27 15:58
twitter He pretends to be reasonable but he’s slamming everyone.  The pattern is too consistent to dismiss. Aug 27 16:02
twitter He does not slam M$ for their obvious file lock in and attempts to defeat free markets and free software, he just considers that “reality” the community has to suck up. Aug 27 16:08
twitter That’s the brainwash the SLOG is intended to create. Aug 27 16:09
MinceR Open Software is another name for Free Source ;) Aug 27 16:11
twitter Yet the M$ position has never been weaker.  They are making unbearable demands of their users.  Format and GUI changes at the same time, all of which are catch up to competition which has been there for a decade. Aug 27 16:12
twitter Check this out.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/210145 Aug 27 16:13
schestowitz Fair point Aug 27 16:16
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twitter It’s interesting that they are openly degrading XP to push Vista.  I can’t wait for that to backfire in their Authorized Refurbisher channels. Aug 27 16:19
schestowitz They did it before. Aug 27 16:19
schestowitz Let me find something Aug 27 16:20
*seller_liar (n=seller@201-42-213-118.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 27 16:20
twitter please do.  I know they have screwed over their users forever, but it’s never been so obvious has it? Aug 27 16:20
seller_liar hello Aug 27 16:20
schestowitz Recent example: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/0… Aug 27 16:20
schestowitz Hey, seller_liar Aug 27 16:21
seller_liar schestowitz: hello roy Aug 27 16:21
seller_liar I was thinking…. Aug 27 16:21
schestowitz To Microsoft, the targets for forced upgrades are MSO97 and Win2000 users. Aug 27 16:21
seller_liar What would happen with Linux if there were no businesses? Aug 27 16:22
schestowitz Got it: http://groups.google.com/group/comp… Aug 27 16:22
twitter got more?  I remember the transition from 95 to 98, but the “updates” that broke 95 seem to have been by stealth. Aug 27 16:22
twitter looking Aug 27 16:23
MinceR seller_liar: its development would be slower Aug 27 16:23
seller_liar no! Aug 27 16:23
seller_liar MinceR: why mince? Aug 27 16:23
MinceR but commercial closed source systems’ development would stop completely if there were no businesses Aug 27 16:23
twitter obsolescence yes Aug 27 16:23
MinceR seller_liar: because there won’t be funding coming from them Aug 27 16:23
MinceR (money and employee work time) Aug 27 16:24
seller_liar wait , i will explain my idea? Aug 27 16:24
MinceR ok Aug 27 16:24
*MinceR waits Aug 27 16:24
twitter machine binding, yes Aug 27 16:25
seller_liar We may not get so much money, but so the community would be stronger and less stationed. Aug 27 16:25
twitter technical and EULA based. Aug 27 16:25
MinceR is the community hampered by businesses that much? Aug 27 16:25
schestowitz Says who, Byfield in that latest article? Aug 27 16:26
schestowitz I find that to be FUD from those who wish to believe their importance. Aug 27 16:26
seller_liar People would not give much importance on resources, they be interested in how to improve things. The free software worth more instead of open source Aug 27 16:26
MinceR the people who are interested in that can get involved anyway Aug 27 16:27
seller_liar no Aug 27 16:27
schestowitz Good news: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/0… Aug 27 16:28
MinceR too bad dell has already bought into the m$ patent racket Aug 27 16:29
seller_liar No, people are lost in the resources that the “Linux” can offer, but do not worry about the “GNU Linux” Aug 27 16:29
twitter The non free software people have always declared free software impossible.  Without company backing you will never have a free kernel, an easy to use GUI, good documentation, etc.  It’s an obvious lie now.  Byfield’s latest is just another shade of that argument. Aug 27 16:29
seller_liar As a los alamos computer can offer Linux without paying taxes to m$? Aug 27 16:30
twitter looking at the good news Aug 27 16:31
schestowitz I’ll post a bunch of links shortly. Aug 27 16:32
twitter Intel processors … a MODEM?  Who wants a modem?  Ubuntu, that’s good news.  Cheap is good if it’s cheap enough. Aug 27 16:35
MinceR besides, dell quality sucks Aug 27 16:35
twitter The real issue is free software support for the chipsets.  All in all, it’s a step in the right direction. Aug 27 16:35
seller_liar It’s possible to improve the modem algorithm? It’s patented? Aug 27 16:35
twitter Modems are best improved by removing them. Aug 27 16:36
seller_liar heh Aug 27 16:36
seller_liar But , I remember Aug 27 16:36
seller_liar modem was patented a lot Aug 27 16:36
schestowitz twitter: here in the UK, adoption of GNU/Linux is horrible (compared to the rest of the world). And yet.. a recent study found that 3% of the people in the UK now buy a PC with GNU/Linux preinstalled. This doesn’t include people like me that buy a PC without an O/S and people who wipe Windows or dual-boot. Aug 27 16:37
schestowitz Spotted last week: “There’s a lot of Linux out there — much more than Microsoft generally signals publicly — and their customers are using it…” –Paul DeGroot, a Directions On Microsoft analyst. Aug 27 16:38
twitter Good for Paul. Aug 27 16:39
twitter Bruce Perens pointed out that everyone was a free software user every time they used the web. Aug 27 16:40
schestowitz BTW, twitter, someone talked about you in BN comments. Aug 27 16:40
twitter I’ve seen a lot of that at Slashdot.  They don’t like it when people share. Aug 27 16:40
schestowitz Comment at the bottom of: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/26/irc…   Aug 27 16:41
schestowitz You were also ‘investigated’ in USENET. Aug 27 16:41
seller_liar oh my god! Aug 27 16:41
seller_liar why people are angry ? Aug 27 16:41
twitter always the bottom of the barrel Aug 27 16:41
twitter M$ hates me. Aug 27 16:41
twitter I’ve given Slashdot a lot of good front page material over the years. Aug 27 16:42
seller_liar the people who “search” for you ,is m$ people? Aug 27 16:42
schestowitz I’d agree with them that it’s wrong to have aliases. I never set up multiple accounts anywhere. I saw others who do it. Aug 27 16:42
twitter If I followed M$’s advice, I’d be a Vista user. Aug 27 16:42
seller_liar it’s very hard to mantain  anonimous Aug 27 16:42
schestowitz When I put Iowa exhibits (like Bill gates versus Linux with ACPI) I got attacked fiercely. It happened a lot when I submitted criminal evidence, which soon became popular in Digg. Aug 27 16:43
schestowitz It could be coincidental though. Aug 27 16:43
schestowitz That O’Brien guy BTW is defending Microsoft in other blogs, esp.Mono stuff. Aug 27 16:44
twitter It’s not coincidental and the attack on my twitter account was the reason for me getting new aliases not the other way around. Aug 27 16:44
schestowitz I’ll find something from this morning. Hold on… Aug 27 16:44
twitter The hypocrisy of trolls, is part of their attack. Aug 27 16:45
schestowitz http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2008/08/… (scroll to the bottom) Aug 27 16:45
schestowitz It’s interesting that he also ‘exposed’ Slated. He has inside information or shares it (privately or in mailing ,lists) Aug 27 16:45
MinceR which digg post was that criminal evidence? Aug 27 16:46
twitter There’s not so much of an exposure as there is a display of paranoid ranting in defense of a mega corp. Aug 27 16:46
seller_liar m$ seems like agent smith Aug 27 16:46
twitter I mean really.  Who reads and trusts bullshit smears like that? Aug 27 16:46
seller_liar and the other 2 agents is intel and IBM Aug 27 16:47
schestowitz MinceR: yesterday I posted a link there to the fraud post. Aug 27 16:47
schestowitz Before that there was the anti-trust exhibits (as PDF) Aug 27 16:47
twitter The only two people in the world who care about trolls are the troll and the target. Aug 27 16:47
seller_liar I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is Aug 27 16:47
seller_liar to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we… are the cure. Aug 27 16:47
seller_liar cancer…… Aug 27 16:48
schestowitz twitter: seen that URL yet… or post? Dan O’Brien is there to  rromptly defend Mono. Aug 27 16:48
MinceR i agree with Agent Smith Aug 27 16:49
seller_liar dan , uses real personal names Aug 27 16:49
schestowitz seller_liar: Microsoft is building a SUSE-based Vista. Best feature: “cancer” or “allow” Aug 27 16:49
seller_liar it’s a shame Aug 27 16:49
MinceR lol Aug 27 16:49
twitter looking, don’t know if O’Brien is a real name or not.  I Aug 27 16:49
seller_liar m$ strategy: the cancer grows and kill the body gne linux Aug 27 16:49
seller_liar he cites kentma Aug 27 16:50
seller_liar oh sorry Aug 27 16:50
seller_liar he cites slated Aug 27 16:50
seller_liar Keith G. Robertson-Turner Aug 27 16:50
twitter There you have it, a successful attack on the community’s network.  They pay people to stink up the web. Aug 27 16:52
seller_liar hey roy it’good if someday we make a book about all m$ attacks in a wiki style Aug 27 16:54
twitter They have censored my comments by gaming the system and use my response as some kind of my dishonesty.  That line of argument should not work very well for them. Aug 27 16:55
schestowitz See if you can find who Dan is. I find it interesting that despite the fact that he hates BN, he does read the IRC logs. Who would bother and find the time if the content s/he disagrees with? Aug 27 16:55
twitter proof of dishonesty. Aug 27 16:55
schestowitz BTW, he’s not alone. Aug 27 16:55
twitter He probably is alone and using multiple aliases.  Chasing down his identity is a waste of time. Aug 27 16:56
schestowitz A Munchkin who goes by the name “Tim Smith” posted in USENET some stuff I wrote in IRC. He stalks me also in Digg and Slashdot. He has quietly read me site/s for a while too. Aug 27 16:56
MinceR i sometimes read content i disagree with Aug 27 16:56
twitter Everyone who reads things besides their own diary reads content they disagree with. Aug 27 16:57
schestowitz twitter: there was someone called ‘eet’ who attacked BN endlessly using dozens of nyms and proxies. Aug 27 16:57
schestowitz He comes back on occasions. He lives in Germany on the face of it. Aug 27 16:57
twitter The Steve Barkto incident is telling because Barkto means shadow Aug 27 16:57
seller_liar and attacks beranger too Aug 27 16:57
schestowitz He also harrasses Berganger if he writes about Novell. Aug 27 16:57
twitter People like you can trace these things down from server logs.  Beyond that, you have nothing really. Aug 27 16:58
schestowitz Yes, seller_liar, you beat me to it. Aug 27 16:58
schestowitz twitter: seen what Joe Barr wrote about ‘Barkto’? Aug 27 16:58
seller_liar the strategy :advises all distro creators about mono Aug 27 16:59
seller_liar I’m doing this in my country Aug 27 16:59
twitter I’m not sure.  Is that the author of the essential lists aritcle? Aug 27 16:59
schestowitz Joe was chasing those shills like rabbits and he got threatened too. He’s an editor… award-winning, I think. Aug 27 16:59
schestowitz Mary Jo Foley told me about Dan Rather. Aug 27 16:59
twitter Ahh, interesting. Aug 27 16:59
schestowitz Apparently they play punish & reard. Aug 27 16:59
schestowitz *reward Aug 27 16:59
twitter Yes they do. Aug 27 17:00
twitter So says the SLOG DOC. Aug 27 17:00
schestowitz twitter: let me find it. Aug 27 17:00
twitter :) Aug 27 17:00
seller_liar a site called br-linux.org ,a lot about mono has discussed Aug 27 17:00
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/14/micros… Aug 27 17:00
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07… Aug 27 17:00
twitter looking Aug 27 17:01
schestowitz I’m still desperate to get to the bottom of this. What got me into exploring it (and be distracted) are the personal attacks (direct and indirect, i.e. bosses, colleagues, family). Aug 27 17:01
seller_liar the first link gives a 404 error Aug 27 17:02
schestowitz seller_liar: yes, I copies and paste twice. Aug 27 17:02
schestowitz *copied Aug 27 17:02
seller_liar oh sorry , I see now Aug 27 17:02
twitter LOL, “One unfortunate reality of Microsoft’s reputation for dishonesty is  that its employees can immediately gain credibility by claiming not  to be MS employees” Aug 27 17:04
seller_liar Can I cite some brazilian sites which you can avoid? Aug 27 17:04
schestowitz Yes, please. Aug 27 17:05
seller_liar PLEASE DON GO IN THESE SITES Aug 27 17:06
seller_liar meiobit.com Aug 27 17:06
schestowitz It bothers me that Carla at Linux Today is still linking to Enderle articles. It’s a proven fact that he’s with Microsoft, but Jupitermedia is of the opinion that bad news is news too… (so never mind if it comes from a shill?) Aug 27 17:06
seller_liar www.baboo.com.br Aug 27 17:07
trmanco seller_liar, why not? Aug 27 17:08
seller_liar pro m$ Aug 27 17:08
trmanco yes probably Aug 27 17:09
trmanco you are Brazilian right? Aug 27 17:09
seller_liar hey roy do you have some info about  Wonderware and  Microsoft Aug 27 17:09
seller_liar yes , heheh look my engrish…. Aug 27 17:09
schestowitz What’s that? Aug 27 17:10
schestowitz Wonderware? Aug 27 17:10
trmanco well I’m Portuguese if you haven’t noticed yet Aug 27 17:10
seller_liar trmanco: oh que bom Aug 27 17:10
trmanco :) Aug 27 17:11
seller_liar http://www.invensys.com/ Aug 27 17:11
seller_liar another pro m$ site Aug 27 17:11
seller_liar trmanco: Bruno Miguel é bastante participativo no grupo da gnewsense] Aug 27 17:13
seller_liar i need to go Aug 27 17:16
seller_liar sorry for my bad ideas…. Aug 27 17:16
seller_liar bye Aug 27 17:16
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*seller_liar has quit (“Konversation terminated!”) Aug 27 17:16
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Htheletteroflove Hello, I’m interested in transcripts from Microsoft’s various court appearances. These documents should all be public domain if I am correct. Aug 27 17:23
Htheletteroflove Where would I find these? Aug 27 17:23
schestowitz Hi, Groklaw has a good index. Aug 27 17:24
schestowitz http://www.groklaw.net/article.ph… Aug 27 17:24
Htheletteroflove Thank you. Would this index contain transcripts in whole or in part, and are these links to excerpts or full transcripts please? Aug 27 17:24
schestowitz A bit of both. What specifically fo you need? Aug 27 17:25
schestowitz *do Aug 27 17:25
Htheletteroflove Our firm is interested in collecting any and all transcripts in preparation for our potential efforts. Aug 27 17:26
schestowitz May  I just ask why you use Tor? Aug 27 17:27
Htheletteroflove All of our IT staff use it as mandated by policy Aug 27 17:28
schestowitz What’s the effort focused on? Aug 27 17:28
Htheletteroflove litigation Aug 27 17:28
Htheletteroflove We require this information. Is Groklaw the only site with transcripts? Aug 27 17:29
schestowitz Not necessarily. Aug 27 17:29
schestowitz Does PACER not have some? Aug 27 17:30
Htheletteroflove Where should we begin Aug 27 17:30
Htheletteroflove I’m in love with an inflatable woman Aug 27 17:30
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schestowitz Troll, of course… that was predictable. Aug 27 17:31
schestowitz http://www.infoworld.com/art… “The free, invitation-only event will feature an address by Novell CEO Ron Hovsepian and a question-and-answer session with Zemlin. ” Zemlin and Hovsepian again. The LF and Novell are close. Aug 27 17:47
schestowitz Update on “Microfraud”: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/26/paid… Someone also mailed me this: “I remember over the years vague rumblings about this stuff: I’m sure a lot will unravel in the years to come…especially with a few helpful kicks from people such as yourself…” Aug 27 18:03
schestowitz The Big Corporate Tax Break  - http://beranger.org/index.php?page=di… Aug 27 18:05
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Eruaran hello Aug 27 18:22
schestowitz Howdy. Aug 27 18:22
schestowitz What’s up? Aug 27 18:23
Eruaran not much atm Aug 27 18:23
Eruaran I thought its been a while since I last was here Aug 27 18:23
Eruaran so I thought I’d come and see whats up Aug 27 18:24
schestowitz I think I saw a comment of yours the other day, unless there’s another person identified as “Eruaran”. Aug 27 18:24
Eruaran There’s not many Eruarans I don’t think Aug 27 18:24
Eruaran Except on youtub Aug 27 18:24
Eruaran *youtube Aug 27 18:24
Eruaran Its sufficiently obscure for me to be able to use the same nick in most places Aug 27 18:25
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Eruaran I tried to use Eruaran on Youtube Aug 27 18:26
Eruaran but somebody already took it Aug 27 18:26
Eruaran I couldn’t believe it :P Aug 27 18:26
Eruaran So I put a K in front of it Aug 27 18:27
Eruaran I’m going to learn C++ Aug 27 18:28
Eruaran Its about time I did something useful really Aug 27 18:28
Eruaran I did my ‘hello world’ Aug 27 18:29
schestowitz Hack on existing stuff. Aug 27 18:30
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schestowitz Best way to learn, IMHO, is to play with existing programs. Aug 27 18:30
Eruaran I have very bit “L” plates on atm Aug 27 18:30
schestowitz Also, since you needn’t do ‘homework’ level stuff, you can dive right into KNode or Kate, compile it and then ‘massage’ it, then recompile. Better yet, go to Bugzilla, find bug report and make it s challenge or exercise to write the patch. Aug 27 18:31
_Doug You can’t learn C+= from a book, you must learn it at the feet of a master, who is wise i nthe ways of properties and methods .. not to mention the advanced skillfull means of polymorphic overloading .. :) Aug 27 18:31
Eruaran not using a book atm Aug 27 18:32
_Doug atm ? Aug 27 18:32
Eruaran at the moment Aug 27 18:32
_Doug Seriously, it’s not like anyother language, if you ever dabbled on Basic (spit) you are damaged for life .. Aug 27 18:34
_Doug YOu need to absorb the concepts before you start typing line of code .. Aug 27 18:34
Eruaran never dabbled in basic Aug 27 18:35
Eruaran dabbled in turbo pascal many years ago Aug 27 18:36
_Doug Good .. no bad habits then GOTO line eval((t * 2 **32) mod 1000 ) Aug 27 18:36
_Doug Pascal was a much more structured language, Modula (based on it) was used in schools .. Aug 27 18:37
Eruaran yes thats why we used it Aug 27 18:37
trmanco pascal i still used in schools these days Aug 27 18:37
trmanco is* Aug 27 18:38
_Doug I of course wrote in assembler on a VAX/VMS .. (code snob) Aug 27 18:38
Eruaran I played a game on an old 286 once that was allegedly written in assembly Aug 27 18:38
Eruaran it was called ‘linewars’ Aug 27 18:38
Eruaran but I cant find it anywhere Aug 27 18:38
Eruaran it was fast, 3d with polygons, even on an old 286 Aug 27 18:39
_Doug There’s a number of ‘DOS’ games out there that fit in the MBR .. :) Aug 27 18:39
_Doug Yea, assembler is small fast . .and mental torture .. :) Aug 27 18:39
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Eruaran heh Aug 27 18:40
Eruaran it was impressive Aug 27 18:40
Eruaran pretty basic by todays standards, but the gameplay was great Aug 27 18:40
schestowitz The Forrester mouth-for-hire seems to be doing legwork for MS again: http://news.softpedia.com/news/XP-SP3-Wi… Aug 27 18:44
Eruaran On a light note, the company I work for internally refers to Fujitsu notebooks as Jujitzu. Aug 27 18:47
_Doug When did any ‘upgrade’ of the Microsoft ‘ecosystem’ ever add any value to the bottom line of any major company ? Aug 27 18:47
Eruaran I think they might mean Microsoft’s bottom line ;) Aug 27 18:48
schestowitz Intl. Aug 27 18:48
schestowitz *Intel (INTC) Aug 27 18:48
_Doug Upgrade to W2K, disruption, upgrade to W2K03, disruption, now Vista, do these companies realize they’l have to bin all their current hardware .. Aug 27 18:49
schestowitz ” Computer viruses make it to orbit ” http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7583805.stm Aug 27 18:50
_Doug By the time Vista is stable (version 3) it’ll be time to ‘upgrade’ to Windows 7 (need a supercomputer to get the screen to update fast enough ) Aug 27 18:50
schestowitz When Will They Ever Learn…?  …not to use Windows:    http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2008/08/w… Aug 27 18:50
_Doug Yea, but it was the Russians fault .. :) Aug 27 18:51
_Doug 2GB to browse and email and type a letter … ??? Aug 27 18:52
Eruaran gtg bbl Aug 27 18:53
schestowitz cya Aug 27 18:54
_Doug wha’ ? Aug 27 18:54
schestowitz _Doug: which O/S? Vista is more. Aug 27 18:54
_Doug more what ? Aug 27 18:54
schestowitz The illusion of progress. More gagabytes of trash on the DVD. Aug 27 18:54
_Doug Gartner on Vista .. 2GB .. Aug 27 18:54
_Doug 2GB for the screen to light up .. :) Aug 27 18:55
_Doug “with the new Windows campaign bound to bring the focus back to Vista and with much more powerful 2GB machines available for lower prices” Aug 27 18:55
_Doug fucking lies, it wil light up with 2GB, you need 4 to get it to do anything, remember upgrading from 98 to NT .. need bigger hardware . .NT to 2003 .. bigger hardware .. now with Vista you need bigger hardware to run the DRM stuff i nthe background .. Aug 27 18:56
_Doug HAve you seen how many processes run on a Vista, with no apps running ? Aug 27 18:57
trmanco 60 Aug 27 19:03
trmanco if I’m not mistaken Aug 27 19:03
trmanco 45-60 Aug 27 19:03
schestowitz I thought it was more. 700 MB of RAM. Aug 27 19:03
trmanco my school is crap, this year we are going to upgrade the machines to Vista because the government likes to waste our money in crappy educational software Aug 27 19:05
_Doug number of processes v RAM .. I dunno .. what ARE they all doing ? Aug 27 19:05
trmanco 90% of the times it eats up around half of your memory Aug 27 19:06
_Doug Does Vista add anything to the experience, apart from dumbing it down a bit more ? Aug 27 19:06
schestowitz _Doug: that’s w/o AS software… Aug 27 19:06
schestowitz *AV Aug 27 19:06
_Doug Yea, I experience keybaord delay a lot and window delay, it’s the AV gunk in the background .. Aug 27 19:07
trmanco if you have 1gig, 500megs are occupied, if you have 2 gigs 1 gb of ram is occupied and so on Aug 27 19:08
trmanco I haven’t tried with 4gigs yet, but it is probably the same thing anyway Aug 27 19:09
_Doug The GUI should be on a chip, heck, everything should be on a chip .. Aug 27 19:11
_Doug LIke an Atari .. :) Aug 27 19:11
MinceR things you put on a chip become much more difficult to change Aug 27 19:13
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schestowitz Intel and Microsoft are fighting GNU/Linux in South Africa now. Aug 27 19:16
_Doug Well, yea, but once you get the specs right, they don’t need to change for a long time, like TCP/IP for instance .. Aug 27 19:16
schestowitz I knew Microsoft did this, but Intel shows up as well now: “South Africa’s retail bank Absa has teamed with Intel and Microsoft to offer students PC and notebook finance packages. In a joint statement, the three said …” Aug 27 19:16
schestowitz http://www.telecom.paper.nl/ne… Aug 27 19:16
MinceR a GUI is no TCP/IP though Aug 27 19:17
MinceR “The article you requested is only available to subscribers” Aug 27 19:18
_Doug same principle, put the core functions on a chip, not a DLL, faster and more secure, no hacking the system with a corrupted image file .. Aug 27 19:21
_Doug The atari did graphics better than Windows precicely for this reason .. that’s why you need a 5TB 4GM ram machine to emulate it ..:) Aug 27 19:22
MinceR i think there was a different reason there Aug 27 19:23
MinceR namely that windows is a horribly bad implementation of a mishmash of inherently flawed designs Aug 27 19:23
MinceR it’s easy to do graphics better than it Aug 27 19:24
_Doug YOu could do Windows on five chips .. Aug 27 19:24
MinceR i did a better windows in two assembly instructions: cli; hlt Aug 27 19:24
MinceR ;) Aug 27 19:24
_Doug It’s easier to do anything better than Windows, A modern implimentation of Linux matches it and exceed it in a number of cases, on the same hardware .. Aug 27 19:24
schestowitz Is this an article or an advert? Very fishy: http://www.computerworld.com/action/artic… Aug 27 19:25
schestowitz MinceR: yes, it’s blocked, but I got past it. Aug 27 19:25
schestowitz Have you realised the the press is bombarding readers with this non-event? http://www.nytimes.com/idg/IDG_852573C4…  Other browsers have had it _FOR YEARS_!! But only Microsoft generates media hype. Aug 27 19:32
schestowitz *sigh* They get a patent for it too, just like PgDwn//PgUp in 2005: http://it.tmcnet.com/topics/it/… Aug 27 19:34
_Doug It doesn’t count unless MS does it like the database file system in Longhorn . .:) Aug 27 19:39
schestowitz Longhorn is dead, long live Longhorn. Aug 27 19:39
twitter Hi. I updated my poison pen collection to include Byfield and need to wash my mind. Aug 27 19:42
twitter Read the slog doc again and found this on harassment: Aug 27 19:42
twitter What will cause the enemy to quit?, Lack of support, Public humiliation, Low return on investment,  Nothing Aug 27 19:42
twitter Kind of explains a lot of trolling.  They don’t mention economic assassination, where they go to your boss though. Aug 27 19:43
schestowitz Look at OpenMalaysia for details. Aug 27 19:44
MinceR ImmaCharginMalaysia Aug 27 19:45
twitter I also thought about accusations of dishonesty in multi accounting and want to call it blatant hypocrisy again. Aug 27 19:46
schestowitz http://www.geek.com/microsoft-offers-91-stude… Aug 27 19:46
schestowitz Oops. Not that link. Aug 27 19:46
schestowitz This one: http://www.openmalaysiablog.com/2008/… Aug 27 19:46
twitter Roy, you know who I am.  So does Slashdot.  This is not true for trolls. Aug 27 19:46
schestowitz http://groups.google.com/group/comp… Aug 27 19:48
schestowitz The guy who wrote this is a Microsoft Munchkin for all I can tell. Decades. He has an account harlow-moneys in Slashdot. He also reads the BN IRC logs, or at least communicates with other about them. Aug 27 19:48
schestowitz *others Aug 27 19:48
twitter hmmm, You showed me that earlier.  Nasty. Aug 27 19:49
twitter Ha ha, a funny from the Register:  “it would be below us to suggest that even the pirates have a hard time selling Vista.” Aug 27 20:39
twitter article about nagware http://www.theregister.co.uk/200… Aug 27 20:39
schestowitz Yes, seen it earlier. Aug 27 20:40
schestowitz PostPath has just been bought. :-( Aug 27 20:40
schestowitz Cisco. Aug 27 20:40
schestowitz Not exactly the biggest Microsoft, partner but still… over $200 million for Linux-based (proprietary mail server. Aug 27 20:40
_Doug gtg .. Aug 27 20:42
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twitter Why is it that Cisco coincides with evil sounding stories? Aug 27 20:42
schestowitz I don’t know. http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2008/… Aug 27 20:43
schestowitz “PostPath offers a Linux-based e-mail, calendaring and collaboration solution. It is interoperable with many other e-mail solutions and provides a browser-independent AJAX Web client. In addition, PostPath’s software is compatible with a number of mobile clients.” Aug 27 20:43
schestowitz The problem is that Scalix got hijacked by Xandrosoft (Microsoft partner) Aug 27 20:44
schestowitz Scalix, unlike PostPath, was open source. At least Zimbra is safe for now, but it’s not FOSS. Aug 27 20:44
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PetoKraus @ google trends – how about adding some for, eg, ubuntu, debian, free software foundation? Aug 27 21:08
PetoKraus just for reference, even if they are n Aug 27 21:08
PetoKraus *not pleasant ;) Aug 27 21:08
schestowitz Fair point. Aug 27 21:09
schestowitz But that would be a general GNU/Linux thing… Aug 27 21:09
schestowitz I’m trying to make a point there. Aug 27 21:09
schestowitz Advocacy comes among the links. Aug 27 21:09
schestowitz I also found many failure stories about Microsoft and I shall post an “eye on Microsoft” thingie later. Aug 27 21:09
PetoKraus ok, that’s good… Aug 27 21:10
schestowitz I fell behind. The computer at work dropped the connection. I’m not sure why. Aug 27 21:11
PetoKraus hehe, the czech thing is nice Aug 27 21:13
schestowitz ? Aug 27 21:13
PetoKraus that reimbursed user Aug 27 21:13
schestowitz Oh, *that* Aug 27 21:13
schestowitz NDAs and all. It’s worth a whole post, but I don’t have the time. :-(( Aug 27 21:14
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mib_gp0qvo Hi:  I was reading on BoycottNovell http://www.abclinuxu.cz/clanky/pr/abclinu…  Are there any other articles concerning the refusal of the Microsoft EULA? Aug 27 21:30
schestowitz Yes. Aug 27 21:30
schestowitz Hold on… Aug 27 21:30
schestowitz http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/colu… Aug 27 21:31
schestowitz There’s a link there to the BBC article. I can think of 3 different OEMs that did this. Also see: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/2… Aug 27 21:32
PetoKraus the british retailers would lie to you about that, though Aug 27 21:32
schestowitz You have to push hard, yes.. Aug 27 21:32
schestowitz . Aug 27 21:32
PetoKraus actually, i guess our company would redirect you to the manufacturer… Aug 27 21:32
PetoKraus which is kind of sad. Aug 27 21:32
schestowitz Easy for them. Aug 27 21:33
PetoKraus yes Aug 27 21:33
schestowitz I just bought my last PC without an O/S. Aug 27 21:33
PetoKraus it’s also easy for us to… use… umm… yes, _these_ versions of database/cms/office. Aug 27 21:33
PetoKraus then you go there, uninstall M$ Office, install Openoffice, everything works Aug 27 21:34
PetoKraus BUT they’ll install it back anyway. Aug 27 21:34
PetoKraus PHB Aug 27 21:34
mib_gp0qvo Was trying to understand the EULA; I can’t. That’s why I was. Aug 27 21:34
mib_gp0qvo That’s why I ask, sorry for typo Aug 27 21:35
schestowitz If it’s refused when you buy a new PC, you might be able to get a refund. It worked with the XP EULA. Aug 27 21:35
PetoKraus yes. though you have to really press hard Aug 27 21:37
PetoKraus and don’t agree to the license :P Aug 27 21:37
PetoKraus though it’s cat and mouse problem, AFAIK. eg acer – they give you support only if you try out their recovery CD’s first Aug 27 21:38
schestowitz Poland recently filed a complaint against it. Aug 27 21:38
PetoKraus but you can’t get the recovery CD’s if you don’t agree to the license Aug 27 21:38
schestowitz Microsoft cgoes out of its way to prevent people from even buying just HARDWARE. They bundle Windows everywhere. Aug 27 21:38
schestowitz Then there’s that ActiveX, DirectX, XAML stuff which ensures you’ll get screwed very hard if you say “no” to a Windows partition. But the regulators are asleep. Aug 27 21:38
schestowitz I got some E-mails earlier today about that Microsoft fraud story. There’s an update on that connecting it to political corruption, which is why known crime is routinely ignored. Aug 27 21:39
mib_gp0qvo I don’t get that one, about the partition. Aug 27 21:39
PetoKraus mib_3h4ih0: your computer gets… knackered, right? Aug 27 21:40
PetoKraus so you call acer Aug 27 21:40
PetoKraus they ask you if you did use their recovery CD’s Aug 27 21:40
schestowitz mib_3h4ih0: the “recommends Vista” should be illegal too. The ASA should look into that. It’s a lie. Aug 27 21:40
PetoKraus you say you didn’t, since there was no way to burn them, since you disagreed with software eula Aug 27 21:40
mib_gp0qvo On the Dell sight it’s the 1st thing you see Aug 27 21:41
PetoKraus dell are actually quite good Aug 27 21:41
PetoKraus they don’t care much about the sw part Aug 27 21:42
schestowitz Dell deserves credit for having the dam burst. Aug 27 21:42
PetoKraus hp’s are terrible, acer’s are quite bad in this Aug 27 21:43
PetoKraus so i hear. Aug 27 21:43
schestowitz It’s a shame about the codecs tax, but at least it listened to people and went with Ubuntu. In China, it sold out badly. I still don’t know how much they pay Microsoft for GNU/Linux. But that’s another story… Aug 27 21:43
schestowitz H-P is Microsoft’s lapdog now. They want to stay on top and they need Microsoft’s ‘margin love’. Aug 27 21:44
PetoKraus frankly enough, i don’t wanna be bad but Aug 27 21:44
schestowitz You upset Microsoft a little, they raise the price of Microsoft a little (the prices are always top secret) and you’re out of business. OEMs are very scared of this dependence on Microsoft. GNU/Linux is Switzerland status to them. Aug 27 21:45
PetoKraus the machines dell offers right now at dell.co.uk are not very good price/money Aug 27 21:45
MinceR are there any pages about this price raising issue i could wave at m$ fanboys? Aug 27 21:46
schestowitz http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2008/08… : Is Linux’s Marketshare Closer to 20% Or More? Aug 27 21:47
schestowitz I heard it before. 13% Aug 27 21:47
schestowitz Recycled PCs in developing countries and all… lots of them in China too. Aug 27 21:48
mib_gp0qvo How can it be said what % of Linux is in use. I tried to log to the DNC to watch the latest videos but it refuse me but didn’t tell me what OS I was using Aug 27 21:52
schestowitz It’s matter of making the point with exaggeration.  Last week: “There’s a lot of Linux out there — much more than Microsoft generally signals publicly — and their customers are using it…”–Paul DeGroot, a Directions On Microsoft analyst. Aug 27 21:53
mib_gp0qvo OK english not first language Aug 27 21:53
schestowitz mib_3h4ih0: same here, that’s not a problem. Aug 27 21:53
schestowitz To measure use, other methods are needed. Aug 27 21:54
schestowitz Gartner says it’s 4% (on the desktop), but it’s a Microsoft analyst. Aug 27 21:54
schestowitz Google’s logs will suffers from things like Squid, forging, zombies, etc. Aug 27 21:54
schestowitz http://itmanagement.earthweb.co… Aug 27 21:55
mib_gp0qvo squid, zombies=MS machines? Aug 27 21:56
trmanco schestowitz, the mono fag commented again Aug 27 21:57
trmanco still saying that java is no good :| Aug 27 21:57
schestowitz Dana with another shot at RMS: http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2823 (been provoking a lot lately) Aug 27 21:58
trmanco this time he posted a giant comment Aug 27 21:58
MinceR well, java does suck Aug 27 21:58
schestowitz trmanco: [sarcasm /]copy and paste from his bosses at Remond. Aug 27 21:58
trmanco don’t know Aug 27 21:59
trmanco but he insists that M$/Novell is a good thing when its not Aug 27 21:59
schestowitz He promotes Mono (Novell). Surprise, surprise. Novell and Microsoft brainwash some people. That’s all right, so did SCO. Aug 27 22:02
trmanco but what pisses me off is that he is saying that java sucks Aug 27 22:02
trmanco I didn’t leave him a reply, someone else did Aug 27 22:04
benJIman MinceR: In what way does java suck? Aug 27 22:05
MinceR it wastes memory Aug 27 22:06
benJIman lol Aug 27 22:06
trmanco how much memory do you have? Aug 27 22:06
schestowitz No more than most P/Ls Aug 27 22:06
MinceR if you want to store a primitive in a container, it has to be boxed in an object which adds lots of overhead Aug 27 22:06
MinceR it doesn’t give memory back to the OS Aug 27 22:06
schestowitz I used to think the same thing. Aug 27 22:06
schestowitz MinceR: is C++ any better? Aug 27 22:07
MinceR yes it is Aug 27 22:07
schestowitz No garbage collection. mallacs with leaks… Aug 27 22:07
benJIman MinceR: Please. Aug 27 22:07
schestowitz If badly designed anyway Aug 27 22:07
schestowitz KDE is well designed, so I don’t complain Aug 27 22:07
MinceR java apps tend to be horribly slow and to use lots of memory Aug 27 22:07
trmanco I love Azureus anyway :P Aug 27 22:08
MinceR azureus is an extreme example of that Aug 27 22:08
trmanco yes it does eat up lots of memory bot it doesn’t lack funtionality Aug 27 22:09
trmanco functionality* Aug 27 22:09
MinceR it’s ok if you can afford to set a computer aside for bittorrent Aug 27 22:09
benJIman MinceR: Java applications are used by a huge proportion of businesses, handling hundreds of thousands of operations per second, and you’re arguing it’s slow? Aug 27 22:09
MinceR windows is used by a huge proportion of businesses, handling hundreds of thousands of operations per second Aug 27 22:10
schestowitz Java is well ahead of everything. Aug 27 22:10
schestowitz But it’s used behind corporate firewalls, so to speak. Aug 27 22:10
benJIman JIT enables later and better optimisations than are possible with ahead of time compilation, memory management can even be faster with garbage collection. Aug 27 22:10
MinceR we have yet to see those optimizations Aug 27 22:10
benJIman MinceR: Not at all true. Aug 27 22:11
MinceR and we have yet to see a JVM that gives memory back to the OS Aug 27 22:11
MinceR (and thus is capable of coexisting with other processes in finite memory) Aug 27 22:11
benJIman MinceR: Go read some academic papers on this and stop basing your opinion on hearsay and anecdotes Aug 27 22:11
MinceR present some facts on those optimizations Aug 27 22:12
MinceR i’ll keep basing my opinion on experience and facts, thank-you-very-much. Aug 27 22:12
benJIman Usually people saying this sort of thing then go on to claim python and ruby are fast. Aug 27 22:12
MinceR at least python and ruby don’t eat all my memory Aug 27 22:14
benJIman MinceR: My hotel wireless time is about to run out, but google java optimisations should find you some interesting stuff, particularly on google scholar. If you poke me in a couple of days when I’m back home I can link you to some excellent articles that explain some of the more interesting optimisations that the JIT does, and the differences to the .net one. Aug 27 22:16
MinceR i will, if i’ll remember. Aug 27 22:18
MinceR (of course, giving memory back to the OS could be implemented but i’m not aware of any JVM that actually does it) Aug 27 22:22
schestowitz Keeps track of the heaps. Aug 27 22:24
schestowitz Relinquishing memory is slow though. Procrastinating the dirty job… Aug 27 22:24
MinceR i’ve read somewhere that procrastrinating freeing up objects to the heap is a common tactic too Aug 27 22:26
schestowitz I never touched VIsta, but I heard in USENET that it suffers a lot — performance-wise- — from bad garbage collection. It’s not written in .NET BTW Aug 27 22:29
schestowitz Just an XP tweak with a bloat of junk on the DVD and some fancy graphics, UAC, etc. Aug 27 22:29
MinceR not even parts of it? Aug 27 22:33
schestowitz I’m not sure. But it was used against Microsoft in 2005 or 2006. They don’t eat their dogfood. Aug 27 22:34
trmanco http://www.deviceguru.com/2008/0… Aug 27 22:54
trmanco http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/artic… Aug 27 22:55
schestowitz Oh, no… not that Byfield hypnosis again. Aug 27 22:56
schestowitz Novell, the price. Aug 27 22:56
schestowitz *prince. Aug 27 22:56
schestowitz “You’re getting very sleepy………………” Aug 27 22:56
trmanco have you noticed the Microsoft ads on the site? :| Aug 27 22:58
schestowitz Which one? Aug 27 23:00
trmanco this last link Aug 27 23:03
trmanco the one with microsoft and novell Aug 27 23:03
schestowitz I used to write for them (I still do, e.g. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/ar… ), but I stopped 2 months ago when the pages got filled with Microsoft ads. I can’t stand it. When the ads are out, I’ll resume. Aug 27 23:05
trmanco wow Aug 27 23:07
trmanco I didn’t know that about you :| Aug 27 23:07
trmanco well I got 4 M$ ads from that link Aug 27 23:08
trmanco 5* Aug 27 23:08
trmanco well all the ads are from them :| Aug 27 23:08
trmanco they target there ads for the linux keyword Aug 27 23:08
schestowitz Yes. Aug 27 23:08
schestowitz It gets worse over time. The publisher ‘sells out Aug 27 23:09
schestowitz You know what I’m gonna do? Over the next few days I’ll report them in BN.com Aug 27 23:10
schestowitz I’m allowed to do this after 6 months and this way I can take away the attention from the MS ad-filled pages. Aug 27 23:10
trmanco good Aug 27 23:11
schestowitz Some might be out of date, like my interview with Shuttleworth (sort of) about Gobuntu, which is now dead. Aug 27 23:12
schestowitz I still have a good interview with RMS and PJ. Aug 27 23:13
PetoKraus what are you allowed after 6 months? Aug 27 23:20
schestowitz Yes, it’s in the contract. Aug 27 23:22
schestowitz Whether they’ll frown upon it is another thing. Aug 27 23:22
schestowitz In case I run out of money, I don’t want to ruin the job with them. Aug 27 23:23
*Tallken (i=f2f93bf5@ has joined #boycottnovell Aug 27 23:26
PetoKraus anyway, gn Aug 27 23:27
*Tallken has quit (“puffff”) Aug 27 23:43
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Aug 27 23:44
*trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”) Aug 27 23:58
*trmanco (n=trmanco@bl5-53-126.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 27 23:58
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