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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 24th, 2008 - Part 1

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MinceRlike collecting data on their users and either refusing to anonymize it or using ineffective measures to do soSep 24 00:00
MinceRand caring little about supporting platforms other than windowsSep 24 00:00
MinceRand assisting in the arrest of people who dare speak against their oppressive governmentsSep 24 00:01
MinceRnot only in chinaSep 24 00:01
twitterThe first and second are debatable.  The third is evil.Sep 24 00:03
twitterNot that the first and second are not evil, the extent to which they are true is debatable.Sep 24 00:04
twitterM$ shows "muscle" http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/09/22/microso...Sep 24 00:04
MinceRalso, being all too willing to pull videos from youtubeSep 24 00:04
twitterGoing into debt is strong now.Sep 24 00:04
MinceRwhich resulted in a long hiatus for a video blog i keep track ofSep 24 00:05
twitter"The software maker said it has established a $2 .0 billion commercial paper program. It intends to use the proceeds from any debt financings for general corporate purposes, including funding for working capital and the stock repurchases."Sep 24 00:05
twitterha haSep 24 00:05
twitterYoutube problems come from being in the US.  They are not funny.Sep 24 00:05
MinceRno, they were doing things the dmca doesn't mandateSep 24 00:06
twitterCite?Sep 24 00:06
twitterand not some Wintel FUD.Sep 24 00:06
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MinceRhttp://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/...Sep 24 00:09
twitterHere's something current, Google fighting ACTA.  The software maker said it has established a $2 .0 billion commercial paper program. It intends to use the proceeds from any debt financings for general corporate purposes, including funding for working capital and the stock repurchases.Sep 24 00:09
twittergrrr.  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid...Sep 24 00:09
MinceRyes, that's part of why i said they also do some good thingsSep 24 00:10
schestowitzH-P starts buybacks too.Sep 24 00:11
schestowitz24,000 layoffs.Sep 24 00:11
twitterI don't know what the UK demands about videos.  Google and others also have to censor Nazi crap in France and other places.Sep 24 00:11
schestowitzRumours just came up about them killing Voodoo. Oh noes.Sep 24 00:11
twitterHP is laying off 24,000 and buying stock instead?Sep 24 00:11
schestowitzBothSep 24 00:11
MinceR(hungarian)  http://rosszpcjatekok.blog.hu/2008/07/0...Sep 24 00:11
twitterinstead of paying their employees.Sep 24 00:11
MinceReven if someone would argue that they had to delete all his videos, they didn't have to delete his accountSep 24 00:12
MinceRyet they didSep 24 00:12
schestowitzWhat was on it?Sep 24 00:12
twitterSo much for the HP that would institute across the board pay cuts, they fire tens of thousands.  That blows like the ghost of Carly Fionna.Sep 24 00:12
MinceRthat /. article doesn't say anything about pressure from the state which leads me to believe that there was no legal reason to ban gun-related videos.Sep 24 00:13
MinceRschestowitz: it was a series of videos demonstrating really bad games in a funny waySep 24 00:13
twitterIf that were true, they would be banned here too.Sep 24 00:13
MinceRa bit like AVGN, except pc games and more recent onesSep 24 00:13
MinceRand a different style.Sep 24 00:13
AlbertoPMinceR, if you violate the law of the specific country, google can only comply...they can't say "no" against a law.Sep 24 00:13
AlbertoPand btw, they can close the account, you accept that when you open the accountSep 24 00:14
MinceRthey can. they can probably delete any video they want, regardless of the dmca because of the agreementSep 24 00:15
MinceRthat doesn't mean that it's right to do soSep 24 00:15
MinceRlook what m$ does legallySep 24 00:15
schestowitztelecom package due tomorrow.Sep 24 00:15
MinceRlook at what hitler did legallySep 24 00:15
twitterAt some point, it's only right to leave the country in question.Sep 24 00:15
schestowitzI'm writing about it ATMSep 24 00:15
AlbertoPif the video violates a law, they should block the user who put it on imhoSep 24 00:15
MinceRlaw doesn't enforce morals and can't do so -- the existence of law is self-servingSep 24 00:15
MinceRit's merely a tool of oppressionSep 24 00:16
AlbertoPOoSep 24 00:16
AlbertoPare you anarchic?Sep 24 00:16
MinceRi amSep 24 00:16
MinceRit's not really clear that the video violated any lawsSep 24 00:16
MinceRtheir use of soundtracks might well fit into fair useSep 24 00:17
twitterAre there any M$ Partners that are doing well these days?Sep 24 00:17
twitterIBM, Google, Red Hat, Canonical and others are all doing well.Sep 24 00:17
twitterHP, Dell, etc are having problems.Sep 24 00:18
MinceRwell, m$ is doing so badly they can't even finance all their ad campaignsSep 24 00:18
MinceRi've become targeted by one executed by my universitySep 24 00:18
AlbertoPcanonical doing good? where?Sep 24 00:18
MinceR(they should be killed with fire)Sep 24 00:18
schestowitzCanonical?Sep 24 00:18
AlbertoPI didn't see any balance stating so :)Sep 24 00:18
MinceRAlbertoP: supporting gnu/linux and ubuntu?Sep 24 00:18
schestowitzRed Hat is buying back shares.Sep 24 00:18
MinceRoh, that kind of doing goodSep 24 00:18
MinceRnvmSep 24 00:18
schestowitzThis relates to what I told AlbertoP before he had left.Sep 24 00:18
twitterut oh.Sep 24 00:19
AlbertoPschestowitz, ?Sep 24 00:19
schestowitzCanonical has a man's bank account.Sep 24 00:19
twitterI thought he broke even.Sep 24 00:20
schestowitzRed Hat is doing fine and the buybacks have gone on for quite some time. Microsoft and Novell want to screw them.Sep 24 00:20
schestowitztwitter: I doubt it very much.Sep 24 00:20
AlbertoPMinceR, twitter was speaking of dell and hp having problems...Sep 24 00:20
MinceRone more thing on youtube: they comply with "dmca" requests even when not done by the copyright holder: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2...Sep 24 00:20
AlbertoPwhat kind of problems if not financial?Sep 24 00:20
MinceRthis is definitely not required by law.Sep 24 00:20
schestowitzAlbertoP: in China they sell PCs for $98Sep 24 00:20
AlbertoPwho?Sep 24 00:20
schestowitzUS PC industry is tomorrow's US steel industry.Sep 24 00:21
schestowitzUnless... they get their precious IPSep 24 00:21
schestowitzNovell: IP, IP, IP peace of mind.Sep 24 00:21
schestowitzMicrosoft: what Ron said.Sep 24 00:21
AlbertoPschestowitz, hehe well, all tech companies without IP are almost nothing...don't forget thatSep 24 00:21
schestowitzNathan Myhrvold: "Intellectual property is the next software."Sep 24 00:21
MinceRthe type of IP matters thoughSep 24 00:21
AlbertoPdo you think energy, chemical, biological and food companies don't care about IP?Sep 24 00:21
MinceRtrademarks in their own mean nothingSep 24 00:22
MinceRpatents mean that they have patented some ideas they may or may not have thought of firstSep 24 00:22
MinceRcopyright means that they at least have some implementation of their ownSep 24 00:22
MinceRbig difference.Sep 24 00:22
twitterI thought Shuttleworth said he was close to break even if he did not say he was already there.Sep 24 00:23
AlbertoPIP is often just a way to protect you research investements, sometime it's abused, of course, but by itself it has nothing wrongSep 24 00:23
schestowitztwitter: maybe with Netb00k RemixSep 24 00:24
MinceRthe bastards are crying "IP" all the way because copyright isn't working out for them anymore as everyone knows they can't implement anything worthwhile.Sep 24 00:24
schestowitzYesSep 24 00:24
MinceRthey want to profit from having vague ideasSep 24 00:24
MinceR(patents)Sep 24 00:24
schestowitzThey got inside whining about patents (Gates 1991)Sep 24 00:24
twitterThey want to own the world, by force.Sep 24 00:24
MinceRbut admitting that vague ideas they might not have thought of first is all they have would be a great loss of face.Sep 24 00:25
schestowitzNow they want Walls and Gates to protect a monopoly they createdSep 24 00:25
twitterIt's a straight up tax.  If you don't pay, you get treated like Iraq.Sep 24 00:25
schestowitzI hreby announce a new lawSep 24 00:25
schestowitzI own the PgDn idea because nobody else 'claimed' it.Sep 24 00:25
MinceR:)Sep 24 00:25
AlbertoPto be honest, I don't think the problem around IP is strictly connected to ITSep 24 00:25
schestowitzPay for for its use or see you in court... get a good lawyer... save up... it'll be long.Sep 24 00:25
MinceRit isn'tSep 24 00:25
AlbertoPthere are other A LOT more sensitive fields, and no one pays attention to themSep 24 00:26
MinceRbut IT is where the disease shows the mostSep 24 00:26
AlbertoPoh noSep 24 00:26
MinceRpartly because normally the barrier to entry is so lowSep 24 00:26
AlbertoPdon't believe thatSep 24 00:26
schestowitzDrugs and medicine.Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoPit appears to the public moreSep 24 00:26
schestowitzDeath by patents./Sep 24 00:26
MinceRand partly because assholes like m$ and crApple are dominatingSep 24 00:26
twitterThat company in China that made MIPS chips got it's pants sued off.  That's why we don't have $98 computers everywhere.Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoPbut thre real business is elsewhere...and it is a lot lot biggerSep 24 00:26
MinceRwell you at least need to be able to manufacture chemicals to get into the medicine industrySep 24 00:26
MinceRfor the IT industry, all you need is a computer.Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoPno you don't MinceRSep 24 00:26
AlbertoPand the real key point for the next decades will be energySep 24 00:27
AlbertoPwho will have energy patents will ruleSep 24 00:27
MinceRanother factor i see is that IT is one of the distribution channels of hollywoodSep 24 00:28
schestowitz"open source energy" some wacko talks about it ATMSep 24 00:28
MinceRone that they can control less than other channelsSep 24 00:28
AlbertoPmedicine is a complex field, you need to spend a lot in research and be safe...that's good business but it requires a lot of investmentsSep 24 00:28
AlbertoPopen source energy is bullshitSep 24 00:28
schestowitzMinceR: telecom package again.Sep 24 00:28
twitterDell warning, http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/apwire...Sep 24 00:28
MinceRAlbertoP: my point exactly. the barrier of entry is high.Sep 24 00:28
schestowitzDell is DeddSep 24 00:28
MinceRIP law is partly about raising the barrier of entrySep 24 00:29
schestowitzBroken CNN URLSep 24 00:29
MinceR(a lot with minimal effort as long as the bastards get their way)Sep 24 00:29
MinceRwell, got to sleepSep 24 00:30
MinceRgnSep 24 00:30
schestowitzgnSep 24 00:30
twittersorry, good night.Sep 24 00:32
AlbertoPn8Sep 24 00:32
twitter September 16, 2008: 10:39 AM ESTSep 24 00:33
twitter     cnnad_createAd ("654 903","http://ads.cnn.com/html.ng/site=cn...","200","220");                           NEW YORK (Associated Press) - Shares of PC makers headed mostly lower Tuesday along with the broader market, after computer company Dell Inc. warned it is seeing weaker information technology demand around Sep 24 00:33
twitterAP shit.Sep 24 00:33
*grompf (i=63e9f1b3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ce4c2da70169dca2) has joined #boycottnovellSep 24 00:35
twitterred hat, consistent growth and value  http://finance.google.com/finance?q=N...Sep 24 00:36
twitterM$, flat for 10 years.  http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASD...Sep 24 00:36
AlbertoPlolSep 24 00:36
twitterhp, some growth over the decade http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:HPQSep 24 00:37
twitterdell, kinda like M$ but worse http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ADELLSep 24 00:38
twitterCompUSA, dead http://finance.google.com/finance?cid=14812297Sep 24 00:39
schestowitzThe stock don't tell the whole story.Sep 24 00:40
schestowitz*stocksSep 24 00:40
schestowitzYou need to bear in mind that it's all based only on the story they tell investors.Sep 24 00:41
AlbertoPyou should look at the net profit to have a better insightSep 24 00:41
schestowitzThey can take a loss to please investors.Sep 24 00:41
twitterOver ten years, stocks tell a very good story.Sep 24 00:49
AlbertoPnot really, because the stock value doesn't account for a lot of factors like reorganizations and such that might lead to a change in the value of the stockSep 24 00:50
twitterI thought charts took splits and all that into account.Sep 24 00:51
twitterSun should be doing better than this http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:JAVASep 24 00:51
twitterIt's like M$ with a bigger bubble priceSep 24 00:51
schestowitzSun is flying too close to the sun.Sep 24 00:52
AlbertoPkeeping stocks price low might also be a strategySep 24 00:52
twitterI realize that stock prices ultimately reflect the collective opinion of technical idiots, but those idiots are also the customer.Sep 24 00:52
AlbertoPquite common among mid sized companiesSep 24 00:52
AlbertoPfyi: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m...Sep 24 00:53
AlbertoP2.6.27-rc1 kernels appear to corrupt the EEPROM/NVM of the 8086:294cSep 24 00:53
AlbertoPethernet device (ICH9 I think).  After hacking the driver to ignore theSep 24 00:53
AlbertoPbad CRC and MAC address I could view the EEPROM with ethtool and it wasSep 24 00:53
AlbertoPall 0xff.Sep 24 00:53
schestowitzOops.Sep 24 00:54
schestowitzBig oops.Sep 24 00:54
twittergoogle, doing well while others languish.   http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AGOOGSep 24 00:54
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twittereh, I've got 2.6.26Sep 24 00:55
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twitterEveryone's favorite dog, http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ANOVLSep 24 00:58
twitterooowwwwwwwwwww!Sep 24 00:58
AlbertoPheheSep 24 00:59
twitterApple, I hate their non free software and don't want their intel hardware but they are rocking http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AAAPLSep 24 01:00
schestowitz 52Wk Low:  2.49  ?Sep 24 01:00
AlbertoPno twitterSep 24 01:00
AlbertoPthey are a company in which you don't want to invest in...Sep 24 01:01
AlbertoPlook at the stock historySep 24 01:01
AlbertoPthey went up quickly, and still didn't prove to stay there long enougSep 24 01:01
AlbertoPenough*Sep 24 01:01
AlbertoPit is a buy and sell stock if you expect it to go up furtherly, but not to keepSep 24 01:01
twitterI just did and wished I'd have bought in in 2001 at $10.  They have grown consistently to 180.Sep 24 01:02
AlbertoPthey grew on what foundations?Sep 24 01:02
AlbertoPa consumer market that can be changed in monthsSep 24 01:02
AlbertoPnot really where I want to put my moneySep 24 01:03
twitteripod, iphone, dominance of expensive laptops, solid desktops.  They will probably crap out but the future is bright with M$ going away.Sep 24 01:03
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schestowitzIt was beloe $5Sep 24 01:03
schestowitzJust snatched a screenshotSep 24 01:03
AlbertoPhehe MS is not going awaySep 24 01:03
AlbertoPthat's the whole pointSep 24 01:03
twitterM$ is history.Sep 24 01:04
AlbertoPMS will adapt and change maybe, but it is going to play a huge role for a long timeSep 24 01:04
AlbertoPhehe history? replaced by what?Sep 24 01:04
twitterWhat's going to keep them around, their famous cash reserve?Sep 24 01:04
AlbertoPyou judge on the short periodSep 24 01:04
twitterIt's implosion time for those morons and it's been coming for more than a decade.Sep 24 01:05
AlbertoPMS had a similar problem years agoSep 24 01:05
twitterThey have never faced as much superior competition with so little to offer.Sep 24 01:05
AlbertoPthe superior competition comes from one side, appleSep 24 01:06
twitterGNU/Linux kicks their ass too.Sep 24 01:06
AlbertoPMS has the desktop market, which is the key...and apple can't compete on all the sectors of the desktop marketSep 24 01:06
twitterCompanies like Google have ripped the web out of M$'s hands.Sep 24 01:06
AlbertoPlinux kicks on the server side at an enterprise levelSep 24 01:06
twitterI've been using GNU/Linux desktops for 8 years now.Sep 24 01:07
AlbertoPbut at the moment nothing offers a real desktop alternative with the same degree of versatility of WindowsSep 24 01:07
twitterbullshitSep 24 01:07
AlbertoPoh really, what's your job?Sep 24 01:08
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twitterWindows is extremely limited.Sep 24 01:08
AlbertoPwhat's your job?Sep 24 01:08
twitternone of your business.Sep 24 01:08
AlbertoPhehe goodSep 24 01:08
twitter:)Sep 24 01:08
schestowitztwitter: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/23/...Sep 24 01:09
AlbertoPwindows is not easy to replace in various fieldsSep 24 01:09
twitterThere are a few niche applications, but the serious ones can all be run in Wine.Sep 24 01:09
AlbertoPschestowitz, and what should that mean?Sep 24 01:09
schestowitzAlbertoP: think IBM. Microsoft can survive, potence won't. Watch Sun, SGI, Borland, Corel...Sep 24 01:09
AlbertoPniche twitter ?Sep 24 01:10
AlbertoPcite someSep 24 01:10
AlbertoPschestowitz, ?Sep 24 01:10
AlbertoPMS adapted to situations where SUN and IBM failed badlySep 24 01:11
twitter99% of the world's computer use can now be met with free software alone.  Only a few legacy applications like AutoCAD (good only for razor thin architecture use now) are needed.Sep 24 01:11
AlbertoPtwitter, that's wrong, and I'll explain whySep 24 01:11
twitteror need windows, and even they can run in wine.Sep 24 01:11
schestowitzAlbertoP: Microsoft adapted to nothing.Sep 24 01:12
AlbertoPthink to all the applications without any equivalent in linux: graphics, technical software, accountability applications, system control, scientific tools, school support tools and such.Sep 24 01:12
schestowitzWith Office and Windows it still does the old thing.Sep 24 01:12
twitterEnlighten me.  Most computer use is text editing, database access and web browsing.  Free software does all of that better than Sweaty B can imagine.Sep 24 01:12
schestowitzInternet is a batter example... and thus far it failed.Sep 24 01:13
schestowitzI think it loses more billions on the Web than it does in Entertainment and Mobile.Sep 24 01:13
twitterThere's a lot of inhouse cruft, but most of it can be moved overnight.Sep 24 01:13
AlbertoPtwitter, lolSep 24 01:13
twitterBusinesses with foresight put it all on web aps already.Sep 24 01:14
AlbertoPno really, it CAN'T be moved overnightSep 24 01:14
twitterIBM is making good money doing it.Sep 24 01:14
AlbertoPyou really have no idea of the costs of thatSep 24 01:14
twitterI have a very good idea of computer costs and inefficiencies from working in a couple of fortune 100 companies.Sep 24 01:15
AlbertoPit doesn't really seem soSep 24 01:15
twitterThe technical and clerical desktops there would have been better off with GNU/Linux.Sep 24 01:15
AlbertoPor you should know that for example it is not done overnight to port a control system or an accountability system...just to cite examplesSep 24 01:15
AlbertoPand this because there are strict requirementsSep 24 01:15
twitterLike Bruce Perens likes to say, GNU/Linux has lower TCO, the sooner you move the more you save.Sep 24 01:16
pombat42Outlook and Exchange would probably be the biggest hurdlesSep 24 01:16
twitterNo one really uses all the bells and whistles.  You could replace them with Kolab and no one would know the differenceSep 24 01:17
AlbertoPehh sureSep 24 01:17
twitterM$ blew everyone off their palm pilots six years ago.  No one cared.Sep 24 01:17
AlbertoPand with what should I replace the cad I use? or the process simulator I use?Sep 24 01:18
twitterThey all had bigger fish to fry.Sep 24 01:18
AlbertoPor the software my government provides to pay taxes?Sep 24 01:18
pombat42twitter:not a chance.Sep 24 01:18
AlbertoPwith something I write in the night?Sep 24 01:18
twitterAutoCAD runs in Wine.Sep 24 01:18
twitterreal process simulation is not done on Winblows.Sep 24 01:18
schestowitzZarafa, pombat42 Sep 24 01:19
AlbertoPloooolSep 24 01:19
schestowitzGPLv3 just now.Sep 24 01:19
pombat42a company who has spent the money to obtain legal Autocad licensing is not going to worry about another $100.00 for WindowsSep 24 01:19
AlbertoPtwitter, do you use autocad on wine?Sep 24 01:19
AlbertoPand do you do "real process" simulations?Sep 24 01:19
twitterYour government should supply you with a secure web app to pay taxesSep 24 01:19
AlbertoPbecause I do all the day, and a lot of software is for windows, especially the data processing toolsSep 24 01:20
pombat42i mail mineSep 24 01:20
twitterI know people from the oil industry that know about real process simulations and I know about nuclear stuff.Sep 24 01:20
*schestowitz thinks AlbertoP practices a job as a MS salesmanSep 24 01:20
AlbertoPschestowitz, I'm a chemical engineer...so you can guess how related to MS I amSep 24 01:20
twitterI've seen AutoCAD 14 on wine.  Worked great, I use qcad.Sep 24 01:20
schestowitzMicrososft's CEO seems to love chemicals.Sep 24 01:21
AlbertoPseen right...try to use it for professional purposesSep 24 01:21
pombat42moving to Linux is a good idea, but it is not an overnight thing and Windows only applications have to be considered.Sep 24 01:21
twitterno drug humor for the sweaty B please.Sep 24 01:21
AlbertoPand btw, autocad is the last cad of this planetSep 24 01:21
schestowitzAlbertoP: so does he.Sep 24 01:21
schestowitzEnthusiasm on stage sells.Sep 24 01:21
AlbertoPpombat42, exactlySep 24 01:21
pombat42Dog and Pony shows always reel in the live onesSep 24 01:22
twitterFriends use Solid Works.Sep 24 01:22
pombat42CatiaSep 24 01:22
AlbertoPwhen you have something else to do other than thinking to how free and open is your system, you want to use the right tool for the right task...that's the pointSep 24 01:22
twitterPeople at MIT use the Athena system.  It provides every kind of software you can have to any platform you might have.  They laugh at Windows as a platform.Sep 24 01:23
AlbertoPand if one tool is windows only, well...the game is done...you buy everything for windowsSep 24 01:23
AlbertoPtwitter, have you ever been at MIT?Sep 24 01:24
twitternoSep 24 01:24
AlbertoPbecause they use windows too you know?Sep 24 01:24
twitterno I don't know that.Sep 24 01:24
pombat42MIT is using what works for them. That's a good thing.Sep 24 01:24
AlbertoPexactlySep 24 01:24
twitterI read their paper from time to time.  Windows does not work for anyone.Sep 24 01:24
AlbertoPthere should be a MS partnership with some research group thereSep 24 01:25
AlbertoPtwitter, I'm the first to say I would not use windows everywhere.Sep 24 01:25
twittergoing for a Winblows desktop because you want to run one application is stupid.Sep 24 01:25
AlbertoPah really and what should you do? dual boot?Sep 24 01:25
pombat42not when that application is the crux of your businessSep 24 01:25
AlbertoPor virtualize a technical software that uses 8 CPU and 8GB of ram for your job?Sep 24 01:26
twitterIt would be easier to run Virtual box and share it out than it would be to keep an actual Winblows machine working.Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoPright ehh how it works good...Sep 24 01:26
twitterWorks great.Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoPgreat right...Sep 24 01:26
twitterUnless you want to be a proud 1%er and run VistaSep 24 01:26
AlbertoPtime is a factorSep 24 01:26
pombat42It variesSep 24 01:26
twitterWorks great.Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoPno it doesn'tSep 24 01:26
twitterBetter than it does on a real machine because you can rebuild it by copying a file.Sep 24 01:27
AlbertoPyou don't want to waste resources in that way if you canSep 24 01:27
*ZiggyFish has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 24 01:27
pombat42Adding an extra level just over complicates thingsSep 24 01:27
twitterI've seen it, it works like native.Sep 24 01:27
AlbertoPvirtualization is good for certain tasks, but not surely for this kind of highly demanding stuffSep 24 01:27
pombat42for some applications yes. so does wineSep 24 01:27
AlbertoPand anyway, people should choose what does the jobSep 24 01:28
twitterWine is better still than virtual box, but the point is that 99% of the world needs none of this expensive software you are talking about.Sep 24 01:28
AlbertoPhehe you're rightSep 24 01:28
twitterAll they want is a text editor and a browser.  Any GNU/Linux distribution will do.Sep 24 01:29
AlbertoPhehe no, all they want is a working PC, with a good and easy multimedia support, compatible with all online services, and with all the devices they buy at a storeSep 24 01:29
twitterDealing with upkeeps and upgrades in non free land is a huge ass pain.Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoPright, because upgrading your distro is a pleasureSep 24 01:30
twitterNo company needs all that multimedia crap and GNU/Linux does most of it anyway.Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoPno company?Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoPare you that sure?Sep 24 01:30
twitterWell, yes upgrading Debian is easy.Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoPdo you really think companies do not use multimedia?Sep 24 01:31
AlbertoPthey don't use videoconferencing? audio? video? noooooSep 24 01:31
twitterno.Sep 24 01:31
AlbertoPlolSep 24 01:31
AlbertoPwell, we know two different worlds :)Sep 24 01:32
twitterThe world I live in has a M$ with a network stack that sucks life.Sep 24 01:32
AlbertoPwell I work in a mixed linux/windows environment by definitionSep 24 01:32
AlbertoPlinux for crushing numbers machine, windows for the restSep 24 01:33
twitterwhat's the rest?Sep 24 01:33
pombat42I'm in a mixed world as well. Windows, Linux, SunSep 24 01:33
twitterif you want graphs, you use gnuplot right?Sep 24 01:33
AlbertoPthe rest is data processing and connection to instrumentsSep 24 01:33
AlbertoPtwitter, you're joking?Sep 24 01:33
twitternoSep 24 01:33
AlbertoPlolSep 24 01:34
AlbertoPI use tecplot...and yes, it is not openSep 24 01:34
AlbertoPbut we use itSep 24 01:34
AlbertoPand matlabSep 24 01:34
twittermatlab is only useful because of it's huge community of users.  All scientific software is like that.Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoPthere are open alternatives, but not anytime as complete and easy to useSep 24 01:35
twitteryou can scrpt tecplot?Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoPmatlab is good because you're sure about the qualitySep 24 01:35
AlbertoPyes you can script, and you can directly write a "reader" for your dataSep 24 01:35
twittergasp, I fear for the quality of my free software, FUD.Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoPno no don't read what I didn't writeSep 24 01:36
twitterWinblows scripts leave me wanting.Sep 24 01:36
AlbertoPbut when it comes to math, I don't want to use untested routinesSep 24 01:36
AlbertoPMathWorks does a great job with qualitySep 24 01:36
twitterso does the uptime, lack of virtual desktops and place keeping.Sep 24 01:36
AlbertoPtheir routines are reviewed and widely testedSep 24 01:36
AlbertoPuptime is not a problem for those applicationsSep 24 01:37
twitteryou can test your routines regardless of what you write them in.Sep 24 01:37
AlbertoPhum?Sep 24 01:37
twitterI prefer to apt-get a tool that works.Sep 24 01:37
AlbertoPwhat does that mean?Sep 24 01:37
twitterFFT, go for FFTWSep 24 01:37
AlbertoPhehe matlab is not exactly fft only ^^Sep 24 01:38
twitterfor every task there's a good C library these days.Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoPgood?Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoPaccording to what?Sep 24 01:38
twitterExcellent.Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoPwhere can I see accuracy tests?Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoPmatlab has themSep 24 01:38
twitterIf you know what you are doing you run them yourself.  Most of these tools are extensively documented.Sep 24 01:39
AlbertoPand their price is really accessible for what they giveSep 24 01:39
AlbertoPtwitter, no you have no time to run them...you need something to trust and work with. That's the whole pointSep 24 01:39
AlbertoPbtw, matlab is not really stealing moneySep 24 01:39
twitterMost source code comes with test routines.Sep 24 01:39
AlbertoPthey produce for all platforms too...Sep 24 01:40
twitterI've been happier with free tools, thanks.Sep 24 01:40
AlbertoPnot really performant though (java interface €¬€¬)Sep 24 01:40
AlbertoPthat's a choiceSep 24 01:40
AlbertoPagain, I choose what works...open or closed is a secondary factorSep 24 01:41
AlbertoPfor example, there is a good OSS simulation code for fluid dynamicsSep 24 01:41
AlbertoPopenfoamSep 24 01:41
twitterI've been using computers for more than 20 years.  I don't want to sink more mindshare into tools that are not free because they all vanish in time.Sep 24 01:42
AlbertoPwell and open tools don't vanish?Sep 24 01:42
AlbertoPwe lost a huge amount of tools with the kde 2 -> kde 3 switchSep 24 01:42
twitterFree software is immortal.  Emacs from 1984 is like emacs today.Sep 24 01:42
twitterI did not notice much of that loss.Sep 24 01:43
AlbertoPthe same happens regularly due to lack of maintainance with gtk apps, and it will happen with KDE 3 -> 4Sep 24 01:43
AlbertoPwell if you look at main apps you won't notice anything, but again, people need more than a nice browser and a client for emailsSep 24 01:43
schestowitzMatlab is junkSep 24 01:43
AlbertoPreally?Sep 24 01:43
schestowitzIt runs on Red Hat too, but it crashes sometimes.Sep 24 01:43
schestowitzI had years of experience with it.Sep 24 01:44
twitterMy GNU/Linux computing over the last 8 years has been more consistent than any non free sytem I've used.Sep 24 01:44
schestowitzhttp://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexch...Sep 24 01:44
twitterha ha.Sep 24 01:44
schestowitzIt's also very closed.Sep 24 01:44
AlbertoPschestowitz, do you know it is one of the few commercial tools accepted on the best scientific journals of math and physics?Sep 24 01:44
twitterI thought you had written a book about that.  funny you think it sucks.Sep 24 01:44
AlbertoPschestowitz, I know...I run it on my suse lappy ^^Sep 24 01:44
schestowitzThey wanted to hire me 2 years ago... 6-figure salary and all.Sep 24 01:44
AlbertoPvery closed? LOOOOOLSep 24 01:45
AlbertoPyou buy it and have access to the routines €¬€¬Sep 24 01:45
schestowitzAlbertoP: all software sucks, Matlab included.Sep 24 01:45
twitterLike I said, matlab is good to know because it has a huge community of users.  They could be using a free system and it would be better.Sep 24 01:45
schestowitzThere's an article about it (software being bad.Sep 24 01:45
schestowitzLinux is solid (the kernel)Sep 24 01:45
AlbertoPlolSep 24 01:45
schestowitzMaybe RTOSes are solid.Sep 24 01:46
AlbertoPokSep 24 01:46
schestowitzSolaris is solidSep 24 01:46
pombat42Schestowitz: Amen. All software does suck to some degree. We are humans after all.Sep 24 01:46
twitterSoftware that can be modified and shared improves.  Non free software is sabotaged intentionally and vanishes.Sep 24 01:46
schestowitzpombat42: you'd expect more for the prize of MATLAB, would you not?Sep 24 01:46
twitterSolaris is OK.  I don't like it's boot up.Sep 24 01:46
schestowitzShall I shell out $700 to run my /OWN/ f* program?Sep 24 01:46
AlbertoPschestowitz, what's matlab price?Sep 24 01:46
schestowitzI don't cknowSep 24 01:46
AlbertoP300 dollars per licence...come onSep 24 01:46
schestowitzI used to know.Sep 24 01:46
pombat42Personally I feel software in general is over priced.Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoPah right, but you judge itSep 24 01:47
schestowitzPer licence. Joy.Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoPso what?Sep 24 01:47
schestowitzWant another PC. Pay, pay, pay.Sep 24 01:47
schestowitzYou rent the 'engine'.... to your own code.Sep 24 01:47
twitterwant to fix something, go away!Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoPno you don't rent anythingSep 24 01:47
schestowitzThat must be the feeling for those who develop for the MS stack.Sep 24 01:47
twitterof course it's rent.Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoPthat's the price for an unlimited licenceSep 24 01:47
pombat42considering development costs logically should be going down due to outsourcing to off shore companiesSep 24 01:47
AlbertoPschestowitz, really you NEED to learn to collect information BEFORE judgingSep 24 01:47
schestowitzIt's rent.Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoPor it's smokeSep 24 01:48
schestowitzThey have 'network' licence.Sep 24 01:48
schestowitzThat's spyware too.Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoPno, you can chooseSep 24 01:48
schestowitzYou're being watched, tracked and disabled.Sep 24 01:48
twitterunlimited but tied to a particular OS in a particular time and it can be terminated at any time for any reason.Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoPand btw, I'm a customer so I know!Sep 24 01:48
schestowitzYou're treated like a pirate, much like those DRM shenanigans.Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoPnah not reallySep 24 01:48
AlbertoPtheir support cycle is very longSep 24 01:48
schestowitzMy colleague wanted to go to Octave because he was so pissed off getting kicked off for licence he /DOES/ have.Sep 24 01:49
AlbertoPand they are extremely professionaleSep 24 01:49
twitterhow do they keep multiple users from running on GNU/Linux?Sep 24 01:49
schestowitzThe program says 'sod off' when he needs to get work done.Sep 24 01:49
AlbertoPoctave doesn't do one half of what matlab does....and it is a lot slower...we tested itSep 24 01:49
*jose (n=jose@adsl-233-225-26.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 24 01:49
twitterslow does not matter if you have 2 for the price of one.Sep 24 01:49
schestowitzSo improve OctaveSep 24 01:49
schestowitzIt's yours It's GPL.Sep 24 01:49
AlbertoPschestowitz, why should I?Sep 24 01:50
schestowitzKneel for Octave. :-)Sep 24 01:50
schestowitzI'm joking.Sep 24 01:50
AlbertoPtwitter, they don't prevent you from running multiple instances. The licence is not per cpuSep 24 01:50
schestowitzI ran MATLAB in  large clusters.Sep 24 01:50
AlbertoPwhen?Sep 24 01:50
schestowitzCould I do that with my own PCs? Oh no... not if I don't buy many licences.Sep 24 01:50
twitterit's pre seat, right?Sep 24 01:50
AlbertoPtwitter, per machine, yesSep 24 01:51
schestowitzA plasma professor used to make this analogy of worrying about scaling experiments because of stupid licences rather than science.Sep 24 01:51
AlbertoPor per user, your choiceSep 24 01:51
AlbertoPschestowitz, matlab was parallelized only recently ^^Sep 24 01:51
schestowitzLet's not go into MATLAB being a resource pigSep 24 01:51
AlbertoPaka last version :)Sep 24 01:51
AlbertoPat least in a usable waySep 24 01:52
AlbertoP:)Sep 24 01:52
twitterneither are useful both have enforcement.Sep 24 01:52
schestowitzI used to be using an MPI librarySep 24 01:52
AlbertoPokSep 24 01:52
*jose has quit (Client Quit)Sep 24 01:52
twitterSoftware licensing sucks.Sep 24 01:52
schestowitzIf I buy software it's mine.Sep 24 01:52
AlbertoPtwitter, if you work for a company or academia prices are a looooot lower for cumulative licences or packages. ^^Sep 24 01:52
schestowitzIt works for CDs, it works for a PC, do why not sofwtare?Sep 24 01:53
twitterThat's just a tax on everyone else.Sep 24 01:53
AlbertoPno it's not schestowitz, and it doesn't work for cd'sSep 24 01:53
schestowitzThe whole thing is organised in a way such that it benefits monopolies.Sep 24 01:53
AlbertoPthe medium is yours, NOT the contentSep 24 01:53
schestowitzThey set the rules to increase revenue. Some of it is akin to collusion where several companies organise the biz model.Sep 24 01:53
AlbertoPyou can't play it in public places for example without paying rightsSep 24 01:53
twittera copyright warrior.Sep 24 01:53
schestowitzAlbertoP: you tell me how it works now.Sep 24 01:53
twitterughSep 24 01:54
AlbertoPno, just someone who knows how are thingsSep 24 01:54
schestowitzI tell you not how thr broken systsem operates.Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoP:)Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoPlolSep 24 01:54
twitterlaws should follow morals, not the other way around.Sep 24 01:54
schestowitzGo ahead, Noveller. Defend software patents too.Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoPno laws should defend rights, not moralSep 24 01:54
pombat42so who determines what is moral and what is not?Sep 24 01:55
twittermorals always defend rights.Sep 24 01:55
AlbertoPschestowitz, fyi I voted against them, as a lot of Novell peopleSep 24 01:55
twitterYou want the right to enslaveSep 24 01:55
AlbertoPhehe slow with wordsSep 24 01:55
AlbertoPyou give them improper meanings just to make concepts appear bigger...not the caseSep 24 01:55
schestowitzPatents are immoralSep 24 01:56
AlbertoPyou don't want licences? good...don't use commercial softwareSep 24 01:56
schestowitz.Ask people in India who die with curable disease.Sep 24 01:56
schestowitzBecause some people have the 'right' to 'own' rather than to helpSep 24 01:56
AlbertoPschestowitz, I agreeSep 24 01:57
pombat42So do I (Schestowitz)Sep 24 01:57
AlbertoPthat has nothing to do with what we were talking about though ^^Sep 24 01:57
AlbertoPlicence is not about patents, it's about copyright btw...different thingsSep 24 01:57
AlbertoPschestowitz, and btw, it is nice of you to worry about indians. But who pays for pharmaceutical research?Sep 24 01:58
schestowitzThat's beside the point.Sep 24 01:58
AlbertoPbecause it comes to this...people has to be paid for their job, and research in those fields have a huge cost...so...Sep 24 01:59
schestowitzThe way a system should be established, especially where life is concerned, should be akin to the NHS.Sep 24 01:59
AlbertoPthere is not enough public research unfortunatelySep 24 01:59
schestowitzThink about stem cell patents.Sep 24 01:59
AlbertoPoh I agreeSep 24 01:59
twitterThere's been plenty of public research.  Non free people steal it.Sep 24 01:59
schestowitzAnd think about establishment of a system that favours centralisation of aid to the ill.Sep 24 01:59
AlbertoPbut tell people to pay one cent in taxes for research and they'll answer you it is USELESSSep 24 01:59
twitterLook into Maxsyma the next time you use symbolic manipulation.Sep 24 02:00
schestowitzPrivatising not only drug but also the ability to develop them is suicide... and homocide or genocide sometimes.Sep 24 02:00
AlbertoPtwitter, I work for those who created it indirectly ^_^Sep 24 02:00
twittercreated what?Sep 24 02:00
schestowitzAnother issue is lack of sharing of medical research.Sep 24 02:00
AlbertoP<--- work in a uni, and the sponsor is DOE, where Maxima was created originally ^^Sep 24 02:00
schestowitzI have heaps of recent refs for you.Sep 24 02:00
schestowitzREven the dug industry, esp. in the east, is strating to embrace open source (DBs and all...)Sep 24 02:01
AlbertoPschestowitz, I know that...I'm in the research world, which is just another businessSep 24 02:01
twitterSo, you know the sad story of it's privatization.Sep 24 02:01
schestowitzNo, it's the same.Sep 24 02:01
AlbertoPtwitter, I know yes...Mathematica :)Sep 24 02:01
schestowitzYou could share your knowledge in a pool.Sep 24 02:01
schestowitzWorks fine for Red Hat, Intel, IBM and HPSep 24 02:01
AlbertoPthe knowledge is in a poolSep 24 02:01
schestowitzIt is not.Sep 24 02:02
AlbertoPthe problem is that the pool has a high cost :\Sep 24 02:02
twitterIf you know the history of Maxima, you should know that people should just use free software.Sep 24 02:02
AlbertoPscientific journals are expensiveSep 24 02:02
schestowitzDoes IBM hold Linux patents to use against Intel?Sep 24 02:02
schestowitz scientific journals are obsoleteSep 24 02:02
schestowitzIt's another schemeSep 24 02:02
schestowitzAcademic pays loads of money for them and in turn they put money back into a closed system.Sep 24 02:02
AlbertoPtwitter, I can't agree in general. People should look if there is a free software that does the job before buying another one. That's true. But if there isn't, well...I don't get mad and use a commercial one.Sep 24 02:03
schestowitzIt's a well-known fact that it's like a cycle of revenue.Sep 24 02:03
schestowitzIt just puts barrier in the face of the curious poor.Sep 24 02:03
AlbertoPschestowitz, no really...scientific journals are necessary today more than everSep 24 02:03
schestowitzLook up literature on OA (open access)Sep 24 02:03
AlbertoPthey are the only form of protection against shitSep 24 02:03
schestowitztaxpayers fund research that are not even allowed to read.Sep 24 02:03
AlbertoPfalseSep 24 02:03
schestowitzSome of it is to do with cancer, i.e. life and death.Sep 24 02:04
twitterno, that's true.Sep 24 02:04
AlbertoPtaxpayers have access to ALL public libraries and can read what they wantSep 24 02:04
AlbertoPeven university librariesSep 24 02:04
twitternot all public libraries have the publications, even large university libraries.Sep 24 02:04
schestowitzGive them bus money.Sep 24 02:04
schestowitzAnd chicken skins.Sep 24 02:04
twitterIt can take weeks to get journals through interlibrary loans.Sep 24 02:05
twitterKind of like taking the busSep 24 02:05
pombat42Put simply. Somewhere, somehow,some way, people have to be paid. What other incentive is there?Sep 24 02:05
AlbertoPtwitter, all journals are online €¬€¬Sep 24 02:05
twittergood luck to the public getting at them.Sep 24 02:05
schestowitzHow do people get paid for development of Linux?Sep 24 02:05
schestowitzPeople make use of that knowledge and asset.Sep 24 02:05
pombat42Many of them have day jobsSep 24 02:05
twitterpeople make software work to get their job done.Sep 24 02:05
twitternon free software gets in the way of getting the job done.Sep 24 02:06
pombat42People want their software to work so they can get their job doneSep 24 02:06
AlbertoPhehe exactlySep 24 02:06
pombat42Software is a tool nothing more.Sep 24 02:06
twitterMy desktop is a figment of my imagination.Sep 24 02:06
pombat42Vitual hey :)Sep 24 02:06
pombat42virtualSep 24 02:06


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