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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 11th, 2008 - Part 1

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MinceRgnOct 11 00:27
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joseschestowitz, http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-1...Oct 11 00:37
jose"These netbook companies are sabotaging the Linux image by shipping crappy distros that lack important software."Oct 11 00:37
josehttp://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2986Oct 11 00:37
jose"Where’s the Internet, he asked. It took me about 20 minutes to set up the internal WiFi, and he could use the Firefox browser."Oct 11 00:38
jose"Try the word processor, I suggested, and he did. It worked. But (and this is important) it wasn’t the Open Office which came with the 900 Model we had in earlier. It was Star Office. An earlier program. It does not support the current ODT standard."Oct 11 00:38
joseit keeps going along the same veinOct 11 00:39
josedoes one have to pay on the eee700 to get sw updates?Oct 11 01:18
josethat might have been the problem.. for users that don't even have a clue they can reinstall other distrosOct 11 01:18
joseHere's an article that was on lt http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2981Oct 11 01:31
josethat has a similar theme (ithink) to what was discussed here this afternoonOct 11 01:31
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sabayonlive-55hello royOct 11 05:27
sabayonlive-55look thisOct 11 05:27
sabayonlive-55http://www.mono-project.com/Release_No...Oct 11 05:28
sabayonlive-55cursesOct 11 05:28
sabayonlive-55jeff stedfast ,joe, miguelitoOct 11 05:28
sabayonlive-55patented winforms using MonoOct 11 05:29
sabayonlive-55site using design techniques from M$ (A lot of colors,beauty)Oct 11 05:30
sabayonlive-55 Are Microsoft or Corel paying Novell to do this?Oct 11 05:32
sabayonlive-55No.Oct 11 05:32
sabayonlive-55This is a question from FAQOct 11 05:32
sabayonlive-55 Should GNOME programmers switch over to Mono now?Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55Yes, we believe that Mono 1.0 is ready to be used as the main development platform for building applications for the GNOME desktop. Mono includes Gtk# a .NET binding for GTK+ and various GNOME libraries which together with C# and the System libraries provide developers with great productivity for building graphical applications especially when compared to GTK+ or Java Swing.Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55-Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55-Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55Heheh ,a small attack over gtk and Java!Oct 11 05:34
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PetoKraushaha, beranger is funnyOct 11 10:04
schestowitzWhere?Oct 11 10:04
PetoKrausxfce or not xfceOct 11 10:06
PetoKraushttp://beranger.org/index.php?page=diar...Oct 11 10:06
PetoKrausoh, bruce byfield should be shotOct 11 10:06
PetoKrauswar on terrorism, anyone?Oct 11 10:06
PetoKraus"The monitoring applications, perhaps, reflect the fact that dual-core machines are becoming the norm, causing a concern with overheating. " What?Oct 11 10:07
PetoKrausi think overheating was much bigger problem with NetBurst platform (80C, anyone?) than it's with Core...Oct 11 10:08
schestowitzBruce?Oct 11 10:18
schestowitzI saw something about the download habits.Oct 11 10:18
schestowitzWait until they pass something like the ACTA to require all computers to be monitored or else they break the law. The RIAA tried something like that, but it was for 'IP', not for 'war on terror'. There's also a ban on some security tools like nmap in certain countries.Oct 11 10:21
PetoKrausyes, exactly that articleOct 11 10:21
schestowitzWhere did you get  "The monitoring applications, perhaps, reflect the fact that dual-core machines are becoming the norm, causing a concern with overheating."?Oct 11 10:23
schestowitzChips can be subverted for back doors too, you know..? http://www.crm-daily.com/story.xhtml?...Oct 11 10:24
schestowitz"Shamir said that if an intelligence organization discovered such a flaw, security software on a computer with a compromised chip could be “trivially broken with a single chosen message.” The attacker would send a “poisoned” encrypted message to a protected computer, he wrote. It would then be possible to compute the value of the secret key used by the targeted system."Oct 11 10:24
PetoKraushttp://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/... somewhere hereOct 11 10:24
schestowitz"**Trouble with Design Secrets** “Millions of PCs can be attacked simultaneously, without having to manipulate the operating environment of each one of them individually,” Shamir wrote."Oct 11 10:24
schestowitzBizarre thing to say... let me see Beranger's replyOct 11 10:25
schestowitzOh, I see again now: http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&200...Oct 11 10:27
schestowitzWell, he tried calling Groklaw and me names (labels) to discredit our criticism of MOOXOct 11 10:28
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trmancohttp://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-8-...Oct 11 11:55
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schestowitzWallpaper. Meh.Oct 11 12:17
schestowitzTakes seconds to change. Same with theming.Oct 11 12:17
schestowitzI need some help.Oct 11 12:54
schestowitzDoes anybody know which distros use go-oo instead of Sun's ooo?Oct 11 12:54
schestowitzI know about Ubuntu, Mandriva, but I want to know for sure about the rest. What about Fedora? I think about writing an open letter.Oct 11 12:54
schestowitzSome months ago I thought about petitioning (at least for a response)  distros to rid themselves of go-oo. Maybe I'll do that now because Microsoft/Novell are forking and hijacking OOo. It's too much of a problem to Microsoft's biggest cash cow.Oct 11 12:57
zoobabhttp://lwn.net/Articles/300829/Oct 11 13:23
schestowitzThere is going to be a confrontation next week (OOo release)Oct 11 13:25
schestowitzre: LWN, well, it's the 'test version' of Microsoft SUSE, so why mind it? Watch Novell.com with all that ActiveX ad Flash objects.Oct 11 13:27
schestowitzNovell 'informecials': http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/arti... http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/inde...Oct 11 13:31
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schestowitzhttp://twitter.com/sjvn/statuses/954359523Oct 11 15:15
schestowitzContext: http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/10/... http://twitter.com/sogrady/statuses/954487054Oct 11 15:15
trmancoschestowitz, Tuesday I will have contact with fedora at school and I can get that info for youOct 11 15:23
trmancoweird, for some reason I didn't appear on COLA statsOct 11 15:32
PetoKrauswell, that article is quite well-writtenOct 11 16:00
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AlbertoPhiOct 11 16:41
AlbertoP"It seems like the end of an era because Andreas Jaeger retires from the board."  <--- do you know the real reson? :-)Oct 11 16:42
AlbertoPreason*Oct 11 16:42
kentmaAlbertoP: which board?Oct 11 16:45
AlbertoPopenSUSEOct 11 16:45
kentmaaha - okay.  No, I don't know why - have you any idea?Oct 11 16:45
AlbertoPyes, it's written quite clearly in his communication :-)Oct 11 16:46
AlbertoPbaby coming!Oct 11 16:46
kentmaaha, well done that man!Oct 11 16:46
AlbertoPplus well, some professional stuff I guessOct 11 16:47
kentmathey tend to come together... risk taking doesn't look so wise when one has a child.Oct 11 16:47
AlbertoPwell I guess you just want more free time to spend with your family ;)Oct 11 16:49
AlbertoPwhen you decide to become father you already took all risks :)Oct 11 16:49
kentmaWell, my experience was that I just had less time to spend on work :-)Oct 11 16:50
AlbertoPhehe and sleepless nights :POct 11 16:50
kentmayeah, plenty heheOct 11 16:50
AlbertoPanyyyyway, it's not the end of anything! :>Oct 11 16:51
*AlbertoP pats the lovely GeekoOct 11 16:51
kentmanot at all, no... my kids have grown up with multiple operating systems :-)Oct 11 16:51
kentmaBesides, when they get older,  you get to inflict all kinds of things on them - violin, piano, guitar, rugby, football, cricket, maths, more maths, art, physics, more physics, even more maths :-))Oct 11 16:53
AlbertoPwell, I'm not father but I won't "inflict" anythingOct 11 16:54
AlbertoPI'm for "follow" their inclinations style :)Oct 11 16:54
kentmaPerhaps your kids will do their homework without encouragement... mine are just beginning to do some of it without prompting - eldest is 14 now.Oct 11 16:54
kentmaTeaching is fun, though - I enjoy it.Oct 11 16:55
AlbertoPwell, I would be extremely inconsistent if I pushed them with that ^^Oct 11 16:55
kentmawrong language - I help them, I don't push them.Oct 11 16:55
kentmaSometimes I have to help them quite hard, of course ;-)Oct 11 16:56
AlbertoPI started to study in high school...before of that well, I was not exactly a good student, and what's funny is that...I'm a researcher LOLOct 11 16:56
kentmaSchools are very regimented in many ways, and don't necessarily suit bright/imaginative kids all that well, but... you still need to fit in to a point.Oct 11 16:57
AlbertoPDon't know...it's a delicate stuff. If someone pushed me, I would probably stopped to study or somethingOct 11 16:57
AlbertoPwell, I think schools don't really value students much...they just throw notions down your throatOct 11 16:58
kentmaThat's one of the interesting problems - kids that age are rarely particularly good at assessing risks/rewards for particular actions, because they lack the experience.Oct 11 16:58
AlbertoPschools ofter are thought by adults thinking as adultsOct 11 16:58
kentmasorry, I didn't get that one?Oct 11 16:59
AlbertoPwell, it is quite simple: school should be thought _for_ kids, not for adultsOct 11 16:59
AlbertoPtheir way of learning is differentOct 11 16:59
AlbertoPthey don't learn using a systematic approach, but "linking" informationOct 11 17:00
kentmaAh, I see what you mean, yes.  I'm a school governor now, and work at lot with the head, senior teachers and so on, and pedagogy has changed significantly since I was at school.  In many respects, it's for the better, but there's always going to be ways to improve.  The main focus at my school is about teaching kids how to research and learn things themselves, and how to link things across curriculum lines.Oct 11 17:01
AlbertoPmath is a good example...you can't really teach math in an academic manner at kids ^^Oct 11 17:01
AlbertoPand actually I think teaching math in an "academic" manner is always annoying for everyone, also for mathematicians ^^Oct 11 17:02
AlbertoPkentma, where? US?Oct 11 17:03
kentmaMaths is one of the most interesting subjects on the planet, but if you over-abstract it for younger kids, it's just boring.  Same for physics, really.Oct 11 17:03
kentmaMe - no, UKOct 11 17:03
AlbertoPoh ok, I'm Italian, living in US nowOct 11 17:03
AlbertoPkentma, exactlyOct 11 17:03
kentma:-)Oct 11 17:03
AlbertoPactually over-abstract math is always a problem when you introduce new conceptsOct 11 17:04
AlbertoPand I speak on the basis of my experience...I'm almost a mathematician (chem. eng working in simulation)Oct 11 17:04
AlbertoPand after years...you read some new stuff and think "humm!"Oct 11 17:05
AlbertoP"back to the blackboard"Oct 11 17:05
kentmaSounds rather fascinating.  I'm a physics/electronics graduate, so I too have some experience here.  Anyway, if  you're a football fan, I'll make you envious - England are playing Khazakstan now - it's on the telly.Oct 11 17:05
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AlbertoPhehe not a football fan :DOct 11 17:06
kentmaFair enough... Personally, I like reading maths textbooks, but that's just me ;-)Oct 11 17:06
AlbertoPgoing back to kids, I'll surely need to learn how not to push on "my subjects" heheOct 11 17:06
kentmaanyway - I must go  - see you soon.Oct 11 17:07
AlbertoPbye!Oct 11 17:07
kentmaciaoOct 11 17:08
AlbertoP:-)Oct 11 17:13
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schestowitzInnovation! I found it!!111 http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10...Oct 11 18:46
schestowitztrmanco: COLA stats are messy, due to the Microsoft Munchkins..Oct 11 18:47
schestowitzAlbertoP: Andreas takes a paternity leave.Oct 11 18:47
schestowitzAlbertoP (catching up, been away): yes, but to some people like RMS, a project comes before kids.Oct 11 18:48
AlbertoPhumOct 11 18:50
AlbertoPwell, that's a completely different idea of what life priorities are :)Oct 11 18:50
AlbertoPa project is a project, and stays something a loooooot lower than a kidOct 11 18:51
schestowitzI don;t know Andreas' age and I don't want to discuss personal lives, but the point to make is that when people make fast progress they procrastinate the upbringing of children a little longer.Oct 11 18:54
schestowitzMarc Fluery, for example, went to spend more time with his kids (4 I think) after getting bored and all inside Red Hat.Oct 11 18:54
AlbertoPschestowitz, well, you're European, so you should know something about European culture and family relationsOct 11 18:55
schestowitzMany Microsoft seniors did the same in 2007 and 2008 (they know Microsoft is suffering).  The Sleepycat guy also... it's always for some reasons like "to do charity" or "spending time with family"Oct 11 18:55
AlbertoPand also about the perception of what a job is and what your life is...strongly separated thingsOct 11 18:55
schestowitzNot in Novell... :-)Oct 11 18:56
AlbertoPAndreas position in openSUSE is exactly the same... Director Platform :)Oct 11 18:56
schestowitzI'm trying to find something.Oct 11 18:56
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schestowitzAlong the way I found this *LOL* : Novell and mixed source < http://asay.blogspot.com/2005/06/novel... > (2005)Oct 11 18:56
schestowitzOh, found it: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10008891-16.htmlOct 11 18:57
schestowitzAnyway, some people told me stories about Novell and Mormons, but I have no ways to confirm any of this, so it's just a rumour.Oct 11 18:57
AlbertoPlolOct 11 18:58
AlbertoPI'd define Novell quite multi-ethnicalOct 11 18:59
AlbertoPUS, Europe, India, China...Oct 11 18:59
schestowitzWell, that's fine.Oct 11 18:59
schestowitzYesOct 11 18:59
schestowitzMore of the latter in the futue.Oct 11 18:59
AlbertoPhehe well not that I care about their religion ^^Oct 11 18:59
schestowitzNovell to invest $100 mln in India over 3 yrs : http://in.reuters.com/article/b...Oct 11 19:00
schestowitzContext: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/...Oct 11 19:00
AlbertoPwe know we know...Oct 11 19:00
schestowitzMy guess is that they will soon announce layoffs (Provo likely) and later on announce some hirings in the east.Oct 11 19:00
AlbertoPusing suse has also that advantage...nice links in Firefox!Oct 11 19:01
AlbertoP:POct 11 19:01
schestowitzWhich links?Oct 11 19:01
AlbertoPto suse and novell sites?Oct 11 19:01
AlbertoPand these info are there also ^^Oct 11 19:01
schestowitzAbout India?!?!?Oct 11 19:02
AlbertoPhum? in the investor relations?Oct 11 19:02
AlbertoPdon't you think it's normal? :)Oct 11 19:02
schestowitzWell, the guys at ELCOT will be thrilled.Oct 11 19:02
schestowitzYes, it's normal.Oct 11 19:03
AlbertoPbtw, speaking of layoffs today is like speaking of hot water...Oct 11 19:04
AlbertoPjust look at stocks, and see that no company is doing decentlyOct 11 19:04
AlbertoPmarket is in panic, completelyOct 11 19:05
AlbertoPno comments about the electric outage? :)Oct 11 19:07
AlbertoPsabotage? index of the crisis? god against Novell? :POct 11 19:08
trmancohttp://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=3334Oct 11 19:08
schestowitzAlbertoP: no, but I get E-mails about it.Oct 11 19:09
schestowitz2 so far today, last one from Andreas some hours ago..Oct 11 19:09
AlbertoPhehe well, pretty normalOct 11 19:10
AlbertoPI feel I get the same emails ;)Oct 11 19:10
schestowitzAlbertoP: solace can be found in the fact that it's a global thing (seen he Asian market?), so everyone is equally f*ed.Oct 11 19:10
schestowitztrmanco: thanks, I saw that earlier.Oct 11 19:11
AlbertoPwell, not really US will save their butt and EU and others will pay for something they didn't do...Oct 11 19:11
schestowitzVenezuela has already expressed this feeling through its academic institutions before.Oct 11 19:11
kentmathis is a result of lots of stupidity.  There were really solid rules in place to keep retail banking separate from mortgaging separate from merchant banking, and Gordon Brown removed most of them.  The fool.Oct 11 19:11
schestowitz"The ODF Alliance previously listed 14 national governments and eight provincial governments as having adopted the ODF standard, with Venezuela adding more South American weight to the list."Oct 11 19:11
schestowitzNow they have an excuse for "war for the ecnomy"Oct 11 19:12
AlbertoPin theory ODF should be an accepted format also in EU...but ehmOct 11 19:12
schestowitzBailout..Oct 11 19:12
schestowitzHigher taxing..Oct 11 19:12
schestowitzInflation..Oct 11 19:12
schestowitzAlbertoP: it is in places. Sweden being an example with more to followOct 11 19:12
kentmaPerhaps.  bank base rates are falling, and so is the price of oil.Oct 11 19:12
schestowitzMicrosoft shills seem to be flooding the comments in BN with lies.Oct 11 19:13
kentmaI'm holding on buying my next 3,000 litres of oil for as long as possible :-)Oct 11 19:13
schestowitzkentma: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/220Oct 11 19:13
kentmaBN in trouble, Roy?Oct 11 19:13
AlbertoPschestowitz, for internal useOct 11 19:13
AlbertoPa lot of public offices use pdf maybe, doc/rtf, but I didn't see one ODFOct 11 19:13
schestowitz"So far so good. But what does it mean to have cash in the bank, when banks themselves are failing? What does it mean to hold dollars, when the dollar is being debased in a way that would feel familiar to the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe? These are very dangerous times, and nobody should think otherwise."Oct 11 19:14
schestowitztrouble? No, why?Oct 11 19:14
kentmaOh, I agree.  I've been predicting the demise of capitalism for some time, as you'll no doubt recall.Oct 11 19:14
schestowitzkentma: when I wrote about OOXML I see anonymous posters coming and doing the MS handbook route..Oct 11 19:14
kentmaUm I'll take a look...Oct 11 19:15
AlbertoPwell, time to buy stocks >:)Oct 11 19:15
AlbertoPalmost :POct 11 19:15
schestowitzIBM=ODF, IBM is "equally bad", they even cite the same people, Oct 11 19:15
kentmaAlbertoP: to a point,  yes, I only ever buy when things are low, but the hard part is finding the ones which actually have a future...Oct 11 19:15
schestowitzAlbertoP: ...said the man who lost $1000 in a casinoOct 11 19:15
schestowitzLost lots of money? Put MORE money on the table.Oct 11 19:15
AlbertoPhehe well, I didn't lose a cent ^^Oct 11 19:16
schestowitzSpeaking of which, on my way to the gym a couple of hours ago I dropped a 20 pound note. :-OOct 11 19:16
schestowitz$40 gone just like that! Because of my stupidity not using a waller these days..Oct 11 19:16
AlbertoPkentma, there are a lot of companies with a rich future. They're just there not on the mouth of everyoneOct 11 19:16
kentmaschestowitz: there is a perfect casino bet - just keep doubling the stakes on roulette until you win.  It's bound to work.Oct 11 19:16
kentmaAlbertoP: indeed :-)Oct 11 19:16
AlbertoPkentma, energy companies, especially electric and nuclearOct 11 19:17
schestowitzAlbertoP: everyone will lose. They'll pay in other ways. Rent, inflation, house worth, tax, medicare, transportation.Oct 11 19:17
schestowitzkentma: that's why they put betting limits.Oct 11 19:17
AlbertoPschestowitz, what are you saying?Oct 11 19:17
kentmaAlbertoP: except many of them might be nationalised soon...  but in general, yes, utilities are a good bet in hard times.Oct 11 19:17
kentmaschestowitz: yeah, I know ...Oct 11 19:18
AlbertoPwhat has medicare, or transportation to do with stocks market?Oct 11 19:18
kentmaAlbertoP: everything...Oct 11 19:18
AlbertoPthe point is that there are _solid_ companies that will make money, that's all what counts for stocksOct 11 19:18
schestowitzAlbertoP: corporations run your country.Oct 11 19:18
AlbertoPschestowitz, what a nice quote from candies!Oct 11 19:19
kentmamedicare is funded by trust funds, which are made up of stocks, which have collapsed.Oct 11 19:19
schestowitzThat's like saying "I don't go to 'war' in Iraq", so it doesn't affect me.Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoPkentma, my medicare is public ^^Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoPnot really a trust fund LOLOct 11 19:19
schestowitzhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlMEVTa-PI&NR=1Oct 11 19:19
kentmaAlbertoP: then it's from taxation.Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoPkentma, so what? I'm happy to pay those taxes if it's for my health...that's not the problem.Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoPpeople should look to the ratio tax/servicesOct 11 19:20
AlbertoPnot to the amount of taxesOct 11 19:20
kentmaAlbertoP: I'm not saying it's bad, but when lots of people lose their jobs, and the economy collapses, taxation won't pay, either.Oct 11 19:20
AlbertoPin northern EU taxes are extremely higherOct 11 19:20
kentmamedical care in the US is exceptionally high - much higher than UK, for example.Oct 11 19:20
AlbertoPbut they have not all the problems we thinkOct 11 19:20
AlbertoPkentma, in a decent country, with smart rules, who earns more pays more and the service is accessible to everyone...Oct 11 19:21
AlbertoPkentma, yes, I know US situation...I live in US ^^Oct 11 19:21
AlbertoPbut there are a lot of misconception about that tooOct 11 19:21
kentmaAlbertoP: I don't disagree, but my point is a bit different - when the economy collapses, taxation systems are not necessarily better than share-funded systems was my point.Oct 11 19:21
AlbertoPwell, share funded systems are proven not to work that wellOct 11 19:22
AlbertoPwhile a public service still remains open and accessible to those in needOct 11 19:22
AlbertoPthat's the pointOct 11 19:22
kentmaAlbertoP: well, okay, *but* when not enough people pay tax, those systems also start to fail was my point.Oct 11 19:23
AlbertoPyeah, but usually this simply increases the public debt...which is not good, but it is a far stronger pillow where you can fall overOct 11 19:23
schestowitzOr people paying not enough tax rather.Oct 11 19:23
AlbertoPI mean, it can absorb a lot stronger shocksOct 11 19:23
schestowitzUnless you 'lose' peopleOct 11 19:23
schestowitzOr if they fall to welfare....Oct 11 19:24
kentmaAgain, I still agree with you, but when economies start to fail, who will lend to them?  Perhaps the chinese will continue to fund the US economy?Oct 11 19:24
AlbertoPkentma, the economy fall the goes up againOct 11 19:24
AlbertoPit's cyclic...we know thatOct 11 19:25
schestowitzkentma: over 10 trillion in debt.Oct 11 19:25
AlbertoPwe are just always unprepared everytime it happens because we don't like the ideaOct 11 19:25
kentmaIn the 1930s, the great depression, there were terrible conditions around the world.  When things fail, there might be no more money to be had from anywhere.Oct 11 19:25
schestowitz“The US government’s debts have ballooned so badly the National Debt Clock in New York has run out of digits to record the spiralling figure.”Oct 11 19:25
schestowitzFrom http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7...Oct 11 19:25
AlbertoPkentma, right...that's where we still suckOct 11 19:26
schestowitzkentma: some historian compared it to a situation in the late 19th cetury.Oct 11 19:26
AlbertoPwe prefer to have crap conditions for everyone than working together...looks familiar eh?Oct 11 19:26
schestowitzHere's a presentation about the GD: http://www.beranger.org/index.php?pag...Oct 11 19:27
AlbertoPwell, we'll seeOct 11 19:28
schestowitzMore companies will becoome patent trols.Oct 11 19:28
schestowitz*trolls. Dog eat dog, just like after Katrina.Oct 11 19:28
AlbertoPhehe schestowitz that won't be really something to worry aboutOct 11 19:28
schestowitzThey should call them "patent dogs". They bite companies.Oct 11 19:28
AlbertoPif conditions will become really bad, the problem will be to live, not to use something open or patented or whateverOct 11 19:29
AlbertoPuntil then, we have no real problemsOct 11 19:29
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AlbertoPat least nothing that can't be fixed with time and workOct 11 19:30
schestowitzYes.Oct 11 19:30
schestowitz /How/ much time is the question.Oct 11 19:30
AlbertoPwell, we'll probably just need to learn that not everything is "real time"Oct 11 19:31
schestowitzThe Romans are no longer dominant.Oct 11 19:31
AlbertoPand this will be usefulOct 11 19:31
schestowitzThe British Empire is no empire no more.Oct 11 19:31
schestowitzGermany does not control most of Euripe.Oct 11 19:31
AlbertoP?Oct 11 19:31
schestowitzAmerican dominance is stagnant.Oct 11 19:32
*moparx has quit ("leaving")Oct 11 19:33
AlbertoPwell, it will take the time it will take...it doesn't really matterOct 11 19:33
AlbertoPthe problem is that we live in such an artificial world we would like an immediate solutionOct 11 19:34
MinceRhow are you gentlemen !!Oct 11 19:34
schestowitzYou'll be fine, I'm sure.Oct 11 19:34
schestowitzI know friends who have debt to pay.Oct 11 19:34
AlbertoPhum?Oct 11 19:34
AlbertoPI'll be fine? :)Oct 11 19:34
schestowitzIt's easy for those who will cope to opti-sympathise, but for some people it's cause to become depressed or suicidal.Oct 11 19:34
schestowitzOr fall into crime/drugs.Oct 11 19:34
AlbertoPoh well, of course it's not the problem that kills you, it _always_ how you react to itOct 11 19:35
schestowitzHey, MinceR. It's anarchy. :-)Oct 11 19:35
MinceRthat's niceOct 11 19:35
schestowitz***update is available: Police-state-2.5.bin  -- CLICK to download patch now ***Oct 11 19:36
*MinceR clicks uninstallOct 11 19:39
schestowitzI was jokingOct 11 19:39
schestowitzIt's  TrojanOct 11 19:39
MinceRit says "human" depends on police-stateOct 11 19:41
*MinceR uninstalls that tooOct 11 19:41
schestowitzBetter than monkey (mono)Oct 11 19:41
*AlbertoP pats his mono apps ;)Oct 11 19:42
AlbertoPmono 2 received nice comments...if you except the "it poisons everything" fudOct 11 19:43
schestowitzOr the Novell boosting...http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1...Oct 11 19:45
AlbertoPOoOct 11 19:45
AlbertoPehh you think Novell is so powerful? LOLOct 11 19:45
schestowitzMore than mostOct 11 19:46
schestowitzLike PHPOct 11 19:46
AlbertoPwhat did PHP do?Oct 11 19:47
schestowitzCompete with Java and other P/LsOct 11 19:52
schestowitzNovel is a 'Microsoft company'. it promotes Microsoft stuff, just like 'new Corel'.Oct 11 19:52
schestowitzWe have old Novell, Novell, and 'new Novell'Oct 11 19:52
schestowitzOld Novell was a Microsoft rival that fought Microsoft tooth and nail.Oct 11 19:53
AlbertoPlolOct 11 19:53
kentmaschestowitz: that was a long time ago...Oct 11 19:53
AlbertoPN promotes MS stuff?Oct 11 19:53
schestowitzNovell was a struggling Microsoft victim that harnessed LinuxOct 11 19:53
AlbertoPwhere??Oct 11 19:53
schestowitzNew Novell is a Microsoft subsidiaryOct 11 19:53
schestowitzYesOct 11 19:54
schestowitzNovell promotes .NET (Mono), helps OOXML, etc.Oct 11 19:54
schestowitzKeep an eye on BNOct 11 19:54
schestowitzit's getting uglier.Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoPnever heard of company partnership? pretty common in all fields: aerospace (boeing, airbus), medicine, engineering...IT...Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoPhelps OOXML?Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoP.Net doesn't need to be promoted LOLOct 11 19:54
AlbertoPit is a realityOct 11 19:55
kentmaAlbertoP: what's the difference between partnership & cartel?  oligopoly?Oct 11 19:55
schestowitzAlbertoP: it's not.Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoPkentma, a cartel is a) illegal b) it is build with the specific purpose to block competition, a partnership is a simple agreement to reach a common goal, and if you read, that goal is a technical one. But of course you read among the lines...Oct 11 19:56
schestowitzThat's part of Novell's hypnosis.Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoPschestowitz, hahaOct 11 19:56
schestowitzJava is well ahead of the pack.Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoPright right...read of people looking for developes..."java, and .Net experience required"Oct 11 19:56
kentmaAlbertoP: I know that, it's the *difference* I was asking your thoughts on...Oct 11 19:56
MinceRpartnership with microsoft means helping them hold the industry back for money... and microsoft kills you once you aren't useful to them any moreOct 11 19:56
schestowitzThe whole song about "inevitable" is the damage imposed by shills like Enderle and Novell.Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoPkentma, I tend to read what words mean, not what I think they meanOct 11 19:57
kentmaAlbertoP: no problem, anyway, you're Italian, so it's probably much harder for you anyway.Oct 11 19:57
AlbertoPschestowitz, yes, and when you'll stop speaking with sentences of someone else, we will start a real discussion based on facts :-)Oct 11 19:57
MinceRAlbertoP: "partnership" is what happened to SCOOct 11 19:57
AlbertoPkentma, what does that mean?Oct 11 19:57
schestowitzSCO contributed to Linux. Yes, 'really;...Oct 11 19:58
kentmareading in a 2nd language is more difficultOct 11 19:58
schestowitzThey were all cool with 'the community;...Oct 11 19:58
AlbertoPkentma, nah not really ^^Oct 11 19:58
MinceRAlbertoP: and the discussion based on facts starts the moment you stop ignoring the factsOct 11 19:58
schestowitzSame with Novell.Oct 11 19:58
kentmae per me, signor!Oct 11 19:58
schestowitzNovell did Netware, SCO did UNIXOct 11 19:58
AlbertoPMinceR, well, your facts have no proofs. Your whole discussion is based on your opinions. What should I pay attention to? To someone writing a ton of posts where the 99% is FUD and misinformation?Oct 11 19:59
MinceRAlbertoP: congratulations, you have just described yourselfOct 11 19:59
AlbertoPMinceR, I tried to explain to schestowitz that if you want to discuss you need to provide reliable references and real facts in an objective manner. Not using the first words coming to your mind to describe something you don't know, to attract the attention of the reader and increase the number of impressions on your pages.Oct 11 20:00
MinceRAlbertoP: afaik he's spent a lot of time collecting exactly the references and facts you're talking aboutOct 11 20:01
AlbertoPand if schestowitz is honest enough, he can confirm I started to come here quite openOct 11 20:01
MinceRAlbertoP: here's a hint: if you want to know the intentions of m$ and novell, don't just ask themOct 11 20:01
MinceRthey'll tell you what they want you to believeOct 11 20:01
MinceRtheir actions speak for themselvesOct 11 20:01
kentmaAlbertoP: I think you should consider journalism in a little more detail - most editors would fire you for what you just said...Oct 11 20:02
AlbertoPMinceR, hehe well, you underestimate a bit the readers ability, and overestimate your insight a lot. Which is the first mistake someone willing to bring information does. :)Oct 11 20:02
MinceRm$ has spent its entire existence trying to hold the industry back, trying to force their shoddy wares on everyone and doing anything they could to keep others from competingOct 11 20:02
AlbertoPkentma, that's why I'm not a journalist. I'm a scientist.Oct 11 20:02
MinceRnovell has joined them in a short-sighted lust for moneyOct 11 20:03
kentmaAlbertoP: I, too, am a scientist, but I like to write as well :-)Oct 11 20:03
AlbertoPMinceR, ok. But why your sentences seem exactly the sentences coming out from RMS and friends mouths?Oct 11 20:03
MinceRAlbertoP: because to m$ cultists everything that doesn't come from the m$ marketing engine sounds the sameOct 11 20:04
AlbertoPhehe MS cultists me? LOOOOLOct 11 20:04
MinceReveryone who doesn't get paid by m$ somehow seems the same realityOct 11 20:04
MinceRand somehow gets a similar idea of what's happeningOct 11 20:04
MinceRi wonder whyOct 11 20:04
AlbertoPright because you know that I'm paid by MS? and you know what I use on my PC? right?Oct 11 20:04
MinceRyou either are or you're just cluelessOct 11 20:05
AlbertoPright, because the fact of you being wrong is out of discussion heheOct 11 20:05
MinceRthere's no such factOct 11 20:05
kentmaAlbertoP: If you think that there's a really nice guy waiting to come out in all the shills, then I'm afraid that you are being naive.  It's war out there...  there is little choice but to pick a side.  either you pick open and honest, or you sell your soul ;-)Oct 11 20:05
AlbertoPheheOct 11 20:05
MinceRAlbertoP: perhaps you could show some of the facts you're talking aboutOct 11 20:06
MinceRwith proofs and referencesOct 11 20:06
AlbertoPkentma, you know, "war" is such a bad word. And someone is already doing it for real. So I would not use it out of its real contest.Oct 11 20:06
AlbertoPMinceR, you're the one saying there is a cospiracy. You should provide objective proofs, instead of opinions.Oct 11 20:07
AlbertoPopinions might be valuable, but they stay opinionsOct 11 20:07
kentmaWhat makes you think it is out of context here?  What makes you think that it is not real?Oct 11 20:07
MinceRAlbertoP: how about some documents leaked from m$?Oct 11 20:07
MinceRAlbertoP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documentsOct 11 20:07
AlbertoPkentma, war is made with guns and it's not an easy word to use imho.Oct 11 20:07
MinceRnot all wars are fought with gunsOct 11 20:07
kentmaAlbertoP: no, war is made in many ways, and I think you are being naive.Oct 11 20:08
schestowitzMinceR: it's the brainwash that has Novell say what pays the bill.Oct 11 20:08
AlbertoPheheOct 11 20:08
kentmaAlbertoP: read The Art of War by Sun Tzu - fighting rarely comes into it.Oct 11 20:08
AlbertoPkentma, I know that...don't worryOct 11 20:08
MinceRAlbertoP: you don't act like you doOct 11 20:09
kentmaAlbertoP: furthermore, where does diplomacy end and war begin?Oct 11 20:09
MinceR221216 < AlbertoP> kentma, war is made with guns and it's not an easy word to use imho.Oct 11 20:09
schestowitzI agree with AlbertoP about the use of the word "War"Oct 11 20:09
schestowitzIt was brought up yesterday in the IRC channel.Oct 11 20:09
AlbertoPMinceR, sorry...I got contaminated by your style of statements ;)Oct 11 20:09
schestowitzWriting about something is not war.Oct 11 20:09
MinceRAlbertoP: this isn't a matter of styleOct 11 20:09
kentmaschestowitz: I didn't say that writing was war, but it most certainly is an aspect of war.Oct 11 20:10
schestowitzAnd yet, when Microsoft's internal docs say "evangelism is war" and compare marketing to "Jihad", then I pause...Oct 11 20:10
MinceRAlbertoP: you've contradicted yourselfOct 11 20:10
MinceRat a point it turns into information warfareOct 11 20:10
MinceRand m$ has long ago passed that pointOct 11 20:10
MinceRthey know thatOct 11 20:10
MinceRwe know thatOct 11 20:10
AlbertoPMinceR, about you reference: I don't say MS is not trying to block OSS. My point is that your vision of the agreement with MS of Linux distributions (not only Novell), is not negative. And actually is a key advantage to make Linux grow in reasonable time, while developing alternativesOct 11 20:11
MinceRAlbertoP: do you doubt that m$ is trying to destroy linux?Oct 11 20:11
kentmaAlbertoP: that was a deeply naive statement.Oct 11 20:11
MinceRAlbertoP: or do you doubt that novell is serving m$?Oct 11 20:11
AlbertoPMinceR, you see? I read your mind :)Oct 11 20:12
MinceRAlbertoP: so you doubt bothOct 11 20:12
MinceRwell let's seeOct 11 20:12
schestowitzAlbertoP: Microsoft will use Novell and then kill it.Oct 11 20:12
schestowitzI;ve said so, others have said so, even Groklaw says so.Oct 11 20:12
schestowitzNovell is a tool now.Oct 11 20:12
AlbertoPI remember RH said Novell would have not been here in one year after the agreement heheOct 11 20:12
AlbertoPright, Novell is here, with growing revenues and stronger investments :)Oct 11 20:13
MinceRthe first one is so obvious i can quote from ballmerOct 11 20:13
schestowitzHad Novell not fought SCO, the Groklaw community too would be harsher in its criticism of Novell.Oct 11 20:13
MinceRhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02...Oct 11 20:13
MinceR"Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches,"Oct 11 20:13
schestowitzAlbertoP: growing revenue? Are you sure/Oct 11 20:13
AlbertoPschestowitz, oh yesOct 11 20:13
AlbertoPlinux revenue is growingOct 11 20:14
kentmaAlbertoP: do you mean the payments from Microsoft?Oct 11 20:14
MinceRAlbertoP: as for the second part, i'm awaiting your plausible explanation of why novell pays m$ for the right of using patents ballmer says linux infringes onOct 11 20:14
schestowitzEven with cash infusion (Microsoft in exchange for .NET, OOXML, etc.), Novell loses lots in legacy products.Oct 11 20:14
schestowitzIt's losing business to Microsoft to..,e g. GroupWise.Oct 11 20:14
MinceRAlbertoP: the only one we could find is that novell supports m$'s patent racket/fud campaignOct 11 20:14
schestowitzAlbertoP: Novell !=LinuxOct 11 20:14
MinceRnote that ballmer never stated which patents those would beOct 11 20:14
schestowitzDon't say "Linux revenue is growing"Oct 11 20:14
schestowitzLinux is like 10% of Novell.Oct 11 20:14
schestowitzOff the top of my head. Add or take aay 5%Oct 11 20:15
MinceRnow, to anyone who isn't a drooling idiot it's obvious this means there are no patents and there's no proofOct 11 20:15
AlbertoPschestowitz, which doesn't require to be an economist to understand it. Those legacy products are being in some case EOL'd, and in others are being completely redesigned, so it's natural to see a reduction.Oct 11 20:15
kentmaAlbertoP: um, no, it's not natural at all.Oct 11 20:15
AlbertoPschestowitz, I meant, clearly, Linux revenue @ N is growingOct 11 20:15
schestowitzAlbertoP: please understand that I used to advocate Novell.Oct 11 20:15
schestowitzYou don't need to defend them blindly.Oct 11 20:15
MinceRthey aren't defensible anymoreOct 11 20:16
AlbertoPkentma, it is natural. When you EOL a product, you won't earn from it anymore ^^Oct 11 20:16
MinceRnovell made it pretty obvious where they stand.Oct 11 20:16
schestowitzThey know what they did. Messman got the sack pretty much and IBMers are in chanrge now.Oct 11 20:16
kentmaAlbertoP: EOLing is only done when there is a replacement product and lock-in in order to force migration, otherwise, it's because nobody *wants* it, which is quite different.Oct 11 20:16
schestowitzThe whole 'patent consortium;.Oct 11 20:16
AlbertoPkentma, do you know something about Novell products?Oct 11 20:16
kentmaAlbertoP: EOling is almost inevitably used to *increase* revenue, not decrease it!Oct 11 20:16
schestowitzIBM wants to prevent Red Hat/Oracle from getting too poerfulOct 11 20:16
kentmaAlbertoP: I think I know rather more about how lock-in works than you appear to.Oct 11 20:17
schestowitzIBM already grew one monster (Microsoft) when they gave it some power with DOS and allowed it to abuse the market (e.g. FUD against OS/2)Oct 11 20:17
AlbertoPkentma, hehe nice...answering with an attack when you don't have anything better ;)Oct 11 20:17
kentmaAlbertoP: you *never* EOL something if it'll cost you money - that would be stupid.Oct 11 20:17
kentmaAlbertoP: I'm not attacking, sorry, I'm just stating the facts as I see them.  Your analysis is quite incorrect - I travel the planet lecturing on this stuff...Oct 11 20:17
AlbertoPkentma, you just showed you don't know anything about Novell's development plans and changes ^^Oct 11 20:17
AlbertoPthe loss came from NetWare mainlyOct 11 20:18
kentmaAlbertoP: whatever, matey.   Clearly, you don't work in marketing or business strategy...Oct 11 20:18
schestowitzkentma: case of point: XPOct 11 20:18
AlbertoPwhich has been integrated into SLE, OESOct 11 20:18
AlbertoPkentma, neither you ^^Oct 11 20:18
kentmaAlbertoP: wrong.Oct 11 20:18
schestowitzHad Microsoft been able to *force* Vista upon people and Linux sub-notebooks did not exist, XP would have eXPired.Oct 11 20:18
AlbertoPkentma, what wrong?Oct 11 20:18
schestowitzIt's all about money.Oct 11 20:18
kentmaAlbertoP: you.Oct 11 20:18
schestowitzIt's not Microsoft's goodwill with XP users.Oct 11 20:18
AlbertoPkentma, thanks.Oct 11 20:19
kentmaAlbertoP: let me try again, you *never* EOL something unless you have a means to force migration onto a higher margin product; it's suicide to do so.Oct 11 20:19
AlbertoPkentma, not really ^^Oct 11 20:19
kentmaAlbertoP: No need to thank me, just listen and consider what I'm saying.Oct 11 20:19
AlbertoPit's an obsolete productOct 11 20:19
schestowitzOpenSUSE 10.2 is EoL soon.Oct 11 20:19
kentmaAlbertoP: obsolesence is something you *decide* on!Oct 11 20:19
AlbertoPkentma, hahaOct 11 20:20
kentmaAlbertoP: you really need to think about how lock-in works!Oct 11 20:20
AlbertoPkentma, you're the one thinking that Novell is locking in someone :)Oct 11 20:20
schestowitzDuhOct 11 20:20
schestowitzNovell locks in even GNU/Linux users.Oct 11 20:20
schestowitzMono, for starters.Oct 11 20:20
kentmaAlbertoP: oh dear... lock-in is a natural and deliberate consequence of proprietary software, which causes an economic exit barrier.Oct 11 20:21
AlbertoPschestowitz, why? how?Oct 11 20:21
schestowitzHabitual lockin... your apps.Oct 11 20:21
AlbertoPmy apps?Oct 11 20:21
schestowitzYes.Oct 11 20:21
AlbertoPnot really, Novell linux has exactly the same apps I can have on all the linux distros...Oct 11 20:21
MinceRand the data you access via those appsOct 11 20:21
schestowitzDevelo^1 Develo^1 Develo^1 and some users who get 'addicted' to tomboy , banshee and other .NET toys./Oct 11 20:21
kentmaAlbertoP: now you're subject changing, we were talking about the legacy products being EOLed.  Are you being paid for this?Oct 11 20:22
AlbertoPright, because they're not open, nooooOct 11 20:22
schestowitzEven go-oo , which I will write about shortly.Oct 11 20:22
schestowitzNovell is a nasty company and more companies are beginning to hate as for they realise Novell is a Microsoft buddy.Oct 11 20:22
AlbertoPkentma, no. I'm having quite a bit of fun to read and answer though :)Oct 11 20:22
schestowitzTrust me, I receive E-mails.Oct 11 20:22
AlbertoPschestowitz, from?Oct 11 20:22
kentmaAlbertoP: ah, you're just trolling.  Fair enough - I'll ignore you, then.  I thought you were intelligent, not a kiddy, sorry.Oct 11 20:22
schestowitzCan't sayOct 11 20:23
AlbertoPkentma, hehe you know, I just feel funny to troll the trolls :)Oct 11 20:23
AlbertoPschestowitz, right, so no value until you can publish them :)Oct 11 20:23
AlbertoPyour strategy: say something, then hide behind a "I can't say"Oct 11 20:23
kentmaschestowitz: I didn't expect you to get trolls here, roy.Oct 11 20:23
MinceRAlbertoP: so until then we'll just have to settle for reading novell ads to see if people hate novell or notOct 11 20:24
AlbertoPkentma, the whole boy is trolling...what do you expect?Oct 11 20:24
schestowitzAlbertoP is an opensuse guy, but he's polite.Oct 11 20:24
MinceRAlbertoP: because i'm sure they'd let us know if people didOct 11 20:24
AlbertoPschestowitz, thanks ^^Oct 11 20:24
AlbertoPMinceR, maybe because I see novell products around? I see suse adopted? I know and use it? Have you ever thought that mine might be a simple feedback of a user?Oct 11 20:25
schestowitzAlso, the aim is to help OpenSUSE (community) understand that their time is better used not helping Hovsepian & Ballmer Co.Oct 11 20:25
MinceRAlbertoP: oh, i see... so if at least 1 person uses them, everybody loves them. very logical.Oct 11 20:26
AlbertoPMinceR, 1 person right...Oct 11 20:26
MinceRschestowitz: but is there anybody left there who even cares?Oct 11 20:26
AlbertoPMinceR, hehe it seems so. OpenSUSE has quite a bit of users :)Oct 11 20:27
schestowitzMany in Germany and part of Europe...Oct 11 20:28
AlbertoPschestowitz, btw, rumours are that N would like the community to be more independent :)Oct 11 20:28
AlbertoPschestowitz, actually in my field (HPC) suse is the indiscussed king among linuxes in US tooOct 11 20:28
MinceRlolOct 11 20:28
MinceRhere i've kept hearing how suse sucks even before it was bought by novellOct 11 20:29
MinceRand i can tell from experience that the opensuse installer sucks really hardOct 11 20:29
AlbertoPoh well, I won't contraddict you about the installer if you tried it before 11.0Oct 11 20:29
AlbertoPyou should really know me a bit more hehe...Oct 11 20:30
MinceRi doubt i shouldOct 11 20:30
MinceRyou haven't really shown any reasons to :>Oct 11 20:31
AlbertoPhehe well, you think I'm biased...read some of my comments on opensuse ML ^^Oct 11 20:31
MinceRi've read some of your comments on this channelOct 11 20:31
AlbertoPMinceR, well, the environment has an impact :-)Oct 11 20:32
AlbertoPwould you mind if we link here #opensuse-comics? ;)Oct 11 20:34
AlbertoPMinceR, however... I'm always open to a fact-based discussion :)Oct 11 20:35
AlbertoPless open to "AJ retires from the board" = "It's the end of an era!"Oct 11 20:36
MinceRi don't know who AJ isOct 11 20:36
AlbertoPAndreas JaegerOct 11 20:37
MinceRi still don't know :>Oct 11 20:37
AlbertoPhttp://boycottnovell.com/Oct 11 20:38
AlbertoPsearch there :)Oct 11 20:38
AlbertoPAJ is the director of opensuse platform :)Oct 11 20:40
MinceRwell, i'll leave that topic to schestowitz as i don't really care about opensuse (other than wanting it to die with the rest of m$/novell)Oct 11 20:40
AlbertoPhehe rightOct 11 20:40
schestowitzAlbertoP: (catching up) I didn't see anything about independence.Oct 11 20:40
AlbertoPbecause the consequences would be cost-free for linux right MinceR ? :)Oct 11 20:40
MinceRafaik novell owns the trademarks and some of the leaders of opensuse are on novell payrollOct 11 20:40
schestowitzAlbertoP: IBM is the 'seller' of SUSE in HPCOct 11 20:40
MinceRnovell itself is on m$ payrollOct 11 20:41
schestowitzMainframes also.Oct 11 20:41
AlbertoPschestowitz, not only IBMOct 11 20:41
MinceRAlbertoP: hopefully opensuse and novell will fail to harm linux even though they keep tryingOct 11 20:41
AlbertoPpersonally I have it here on HP machinesOct 11 20:41
*foobar__ (n=foobar__@p5496F14E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #boycottnovellOct 11 20:42
AlbertoPMinceR, hehe right, because Novell doesn't employ, let's see, kernel, kde, gnome, openoffice, alsa developers...no reallyOct 11 20:42
schestowitzMinceR: that's correct. Novell has copyrights, trandmarks and AlbertoP openly admitted that Novell owned and controls the distro.Oct 11 20:42
MinceRi suppose they're trying to harm them allOct 11 20:42
AlbertoPMinceR, who are the two major (and only) contributors to ALSA?Oct 11 20:42
schestowitzHe  contradicted benJIman Oct 11 20:42
MinceRAlbertoP: go look it up on the alsa homepageOct 11 20:43
AlbertoPMinceR, oh I know, I just asked you :)Oct 11 20:43
schestowitzAlbertoP: HP = same rubbish.Oct 11 20:43
MinceRAlbertoP: meanwhile you could tell us why we should pay ballmer for the right of using patents that linux supposedly infringes onOct 11 20:43
MinceRAlbertoP: because that's what novell is telling everyoneOct 11 20:43
AlbertoPschestowitz, a valid hardware provider according to you?Oct 11 20:43
schestowitzHP is a Microsoft buddy. Everything else is usually posturing.Oct 11 20:43
schestowitzEven Bruce Perens, who held a high position there, spilled the beans on H-POct 11 20:44
AlbertoPMinceR, changing topic? :)Oct 11 20:44
MinceRAlbertoP: not really -- this is the way novell harms our community; and this is the fact you keep ignoringOct 11 20:44
schestowitzMinceR: Novell does say /that/. It says: but SUSE for "peace of mind"Oct 11 20:44
MinceRand "peace of mind" means FUDOct 11 20:45
schestowitzA bit like saying "pay me so that nothing bad happens" vs. "give me your money or I blow your knees off"Oct 11 20:45
AlbertoPMinceR, actually Novell has a very limited protection from patents infringement, and limited to the two-three technologies involved in the agreement.Oct 11 20:45
MinceRwhich implies that not paying will cause something bad to happenOct 11 20:45
MinceRAlbertoP: which is more than necessary seeing how nobody needs any protection from infringing on those patentsOct 11 20:46
AlbertoPand it is clearly written in the open letter that that protection is not absolutely general ^^Oct 11 20:46
MinceRAlbertoP: remember that ballmer hasn't told us what patents linux infringes onOct 11 20:46
MinceRAlbertoP: also remember that no proof has been sold yetOct 11 20:46
AlbertoPMinceR, I know thatOct 11 20:46
schestowitzAlbertoP: it's not just patents they paid for. They paid to be promoted as preferred sellers and get cash infusions.Oct 11 20:46
MinceRAlbertoP: yet somehow novell keeps telling people they should payOct 11 20:46
MinceRAlbertoP: so where does this put novell?Oct 11 20:46
AlbertoPschestowitz, that's part of the agreement of course. I don't see the problem. It's business.Oct 11 20:46
schestowitzNovell chose cash over the triumph of FOSSOct 11 20:47
MinceRyeah, m$ keeps saying it's just businessOct 11 20:47
AlbertoPhehe the triumph of what?Oct 11 20:47
schestowitzIt also says and wants us to believe that Vista is inevitable.Oct 11 20:47
MinceRbecause if something is legal, it must be ethical, right/Oct 11 20:47
MinceR?Oct 11 20:47
schestowitzThat the desktop is just a 'hobby' and Linux is 'only for servers'.... AND only yo replace UNIXOct 11 20:47
schestowitzGo to Novell's homepage.Oct 11 20:47
schestowitzYou'll soon see.Oct 11 20:47
AlbertoPschestowitz, vista is not, but don't expect people to live with XP forever or to use Linux instead automaticallyOct 11 20:47
AlbertoPschestowitz, I'm pretty familiar with Novell's site :)Oct 11 20:48
MinceRAlbertoP: there isn't a lot else they can doOct 11 20:48
foobar__schestowitz please provide an url where the novell homepage says that.Oct 11 20:48
AlbertoPMinceR, oh they are simply waiting for the next windows :)Oct 11 20:48
MinceRwhich m$ said will be pretty much the same as vistaOct 11 20:48
AlbertoPfoobar__, it doesn't exist :)Oct 11 20:48
MinceRbecause vista under a different name will be perfect for everybodyOct 11 20:49
schestowitzfoobar__: what's up? What distro do you use?Oct 11 20:49
schestowitzI'm just checking to see.Oct 11 20:49
AlbertoPfoobar__, look yourself: http://www.novell.com/linux/Oct 11 20:49
MinceRi'm sure it ends with suseOct 11 20:49
AlbertoPMinceR, vista is a transition release, clearlyOct 11 20:49
*foobar__087 (n=foobar__@p5496C4ED.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #boycottnovellOct 11 20:49
MinceRyesOct 11 20:49
AlbertoPthey released it just to collect moneyOct 11 20:49
MinceRa transition for everyone to linuxOct 11 20:49
foobar__087sry, I got disconnectedOct 11 20:49
schestowitzLots of foobars here.Oct 11 20:49
schestowitzOhOct 11 20:50
foobar__087AlbertoP surely Roy wouldn't invent this so it has to exist.Oct 11 20:50
MinceRwell, windows is released just to collect moneyOct 11 20:50
AlbertoPfoobar__087, look yourself: http://www.novell.com/linux/Oct 11 20:50
AlbertoP:)Oct 11 20:50
AlbertoPMinceR, as all products? :)Oct 11 20:50
MinceRno, not all productsOct 11 20:50
AlbertoPschestowitz, I still wait for the list of "good" hardware providers. We excluded HP, IBM...Oct 11 20:51
MinceRthere are a lot of products the creators of which don't get any money for them or from support for those productsOct 11 20:51
foobar__087AlbertoP yes, but there I can't find it so I was asking schestowitz if he could please cite the url where they state this.Oct 11 20:51
AlbertoPfoobar__, you know...a company states things on their site...not on blogs ;)Oct 11 20:51
AlbertoPand btw, SLED is not a "joke", considering it sells quite a bit :-)Oct 11 20:52
foobar__087I would guess so, but there is no such statement.Oct 11 20:53
AlbertoPfoobar__087, it seems the HP mini with sled is selling lot more than expectedOct 11 20:54
AlbertoPschestowitz, it's RH actually that considers the linux desktop a lost battle, and thinks only to servers, at least according to their statementsOct 11 20:55
MinceRsome people aren't in on the joke that is SLEDOct 11 20:57
AlbertoPwhy is it a joke?Oct 11 20:57
foobar__087AlbertoP I guess you are misunderstanding me. Although I wouldn't use SLED I was wondering where Novell stats that linux is a joke on the desktop & only for servers since schestowitz said this and I wasn't able to find it on Novell's site.Oct 11 20:58
MinceRbecause it's suse -- you pay money for it and yet it sucksOct 11 20:59
AlbertoPI know quite big realities using it, and quite happily. For example N was selected by our parliament to migrate to Linux...Oct 11 20:59


Recent Techrights' Posts

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