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10.12.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 11th, 2008 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:34 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

GNOME Gedit

Enter the IRC channel now

MinceR gn Oct 11 00:27
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jose schestowitz, http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-1… Oct 11 00:37
jose “These netbook companies are sabotaging the Linux image by shipping crappy distros that lack important software.” Oct 11 00:37
jose http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2986 Oct 11 00:37
jose “Where’s the Internet, he asked. It took me about 20 minutes to set up the internal WiFi, and he could use the Firefox browser.” Oct 11 00:38
jose “Try the word processor, I suggested, and he did. It worked. But (and this is important) it wasn’t the Open Office which came with the 900 Model we had in earlier. It was Star Office. An earlier program. It does not support the current ODT standard.” Oct 11 00:38
jose it keeps going along the same vein Oct 11 00:39
jose does one have to pay on the eee700 to get sw updates? Oct 11 01:18
jose that might have been the problem.. for users that don’t even have a clue they can reinstall other distros Oct 11 01:18
jose Here’s an article that was on lt http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2981 Oct 11 01:31
jose that has a similar theme (ithink) to what was discussed here this afternoon Oct 11 01:31
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sabayonlive-55 hello roy Oct 11 05:27
sabayonlive-55 look this Oct 11 05:27
sabayonlive-55 http://www.mono-project.com/Release_No… Oct 11 05:28
sabayonlive-55 curses Oct 11 05:28
sabayonlive-55 jeff stedfast ,joe, miguelito Oct 11 05:28
sabayonlive-55 patented winforms using Mono Oct 11 05:29
sabayonlive-55 site using design techniques from M$ (A lot of colors,beauty) Oct 11 05:30
sabayonlive-55 Are Microsoft or Corel paying Novell to do this? Oct 11 05:32
sabayonlive-55 No. Oct 11 05:32
sabayonlive-55 This is a question from FAQ Oct 11 05:32
sabayonlive-55 Should GNOME programmers switch over to Mono now? Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55 Yes, we believe that Mono 1.0 is ready to be used as the main development platform for building applications for the GNOME desktop. Mono includes Gtk# a .NET binding for GTK+ and various GNOME libraries which together with C# and the System libraries provide developers with great productivity for building graphical applications especially when compared to GTK+ or Java Swing. Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55 - Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55 - Oct 11 05:33
sabayonlive-55 Heheh ,a small attack over gtk and Java! Oct 11 05:34
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PetoKraus haha, beranger is funny Oct 11 10:04
schestowitz Where? Oct 11 10:04
PetoKraus xfce or not xfce Oct 11 10:06
PetoKraus http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diar… Oct 11 10:06
PetoKraus oh, bruce byfield should be shot Oct 11 10:06
PetoKraus war on terrorism, anyone? Oct 11 10:06
PetoKraus “The monitoring applications, perhaps, reflect the fact that dual-core machines are becoming the norm, causing a concern with overheating. ” What? Oct 11 10:07
PetoKraus i think overheating was much bigger problem with NetBurst platform (80C, anyone?) than it’s with Core… Oct 11 10:08
schestowitz Bruce? Oct 11 10:18
schestowitz I saw something about the download habits. Oct 11 10:18
schestowitz Wait until they pass something like the ACTA to require all computers to be monitored or else they break the law. The RIAA tried something like that, but it was for ‘IP’, not for ‘war on terror’. There’s also a ban on some security tools like nmap in certain countries. Oct 11 10:21
PetoKraus yes, exactly that article Oct 11 10:21
schestowitz Where did you get  “The monitoring applications, perhaps, reflect the fact that dual-core machines are becoming the norm, causing a concern with overheating.”? Oct 11 10:23
schestowitz Chips can be subverted for back doors too, you know..? http://www.crm-daily.com/story.xhtml?… Oct 11 10:24
schestowitz “Shamir said that if an intelligence organization discovered such a flaw, security software on a computer with a compromised chip could be “trivially broken with a single chosen message.” The attacker would send a “poisoned” encrypted message to a protected computer, he wrote. It would then be possible to compute the value of the secret key used by the targeted system.” Oct 11 10:24
PetoKraus http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/… somewhere here Oct 11 10:24
schestowitz “**Trouble with Design Secrets** “Millions of PCs can be attacked simultaneously, without having to manipulate the operating environment of each one of them individually,” Shamir wrote.” Oct 11 10:24
schestowitz Bizarre thing to say… let me see Beranger’s reply Oct 11 10:25
schestowitz Oh, I see again now: http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&200… Oct 11 10:27
schestowitz Well, he tried calling Groklaw and me names (labels) to discredit our criticism of MOOX Oct 11 10:28
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trmanco http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-8-… Oct 11 11:55
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schestowitz Wallpaper. Meh. Oct 11 12:17
schestowitz Takes seconds to change. Same with theming. Oct 11 12:17
schestowitz I need some help. Oct 11 12:54
schestowitz Does anybody know which distros use go-oo instead of Sun’s ooo? Oct 11 12:54
schestowitz I know about Ubuntu, Mandriva, but I want to know for sure about the rest. What about Fedora? I think about writing an open letter. Oct 11 12:54
schestowitz Some months ago I thought about petitioning (at least for a response)  distros to rid themselves of go-oo. Maybe I’ll do that now because Microsoft/Novell are forking and hijacking OOo. It’s too much of a problem to Microsoft’s biggest cash cow. Oct 11 12:57
zoobab http://lwn.net/Articles/300829/ Oct 11 13:23
schestowitz There is going to be a confrontation next week (OOo release) Oct 11 13:25
schestowitz re: LWN, well, it’s the ‘test version’ of Microsoft SUSE, so why mind it? Watch Novell.com with all that ActiveX ad Flash objects. Oct 11 13:27
schestowitz Novell ‘informecials’: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/arti… http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/inde… Oct 11 13:31
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schestowitz http://twitter.com/sjvn/statuses/954359523 Oct 11 15:15
schestowitz Context: http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2008/10/… http://twitter.com/sogrady/statuses/954487054 Oct 11 15:15
trmanco schestowitz, Tuesday I will have contact with fedora at school and I can get that info for you Oct 11 15:23
trmanco weird, for some reason I didn’t appear on COLA stats Oct 11 15:32
PetoKraus well, that article is quite well-written Oct 11 16:00
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AlbertoP hi Oct 11 16:41
AlbertoP “It seems like the end of an era because Andreas Jaeger retires from the board.”  <— do you know the real reson? :-) Oct 11 16:42
AlbertoP reason* Oct 11 16:42
kentma AlbertoP: which board? Oct 11 16:45
AlbertoP openSUSE Oct 11 16:45
kentma aha – okay.  No, I don’t know why – have you any idea? Oct 11 16:45
AlbertoP yes, it’s written quite clearly in his communication :-) Oct 11 16:46
AlbertoP baby coming! Oct 11 16:46
kentma aha, well done that man! Oct 11 16:46
AlbertoP plus well, some professional stuff I guess Oct 11 16:47
kentma they tend to come together… risk taking doesn’t look so wise when one has a child. Oct 11 16:47
AlbertoP well I guess you just want more free time to spend with your family ;) Oct 11 16:49
AlbertoP when you decide to become father you already took all risks :) Oct 11 16:49
kentma Well, my experience was that I just had less time to spend on work :-) Oct 11 16:50
AlbertoP hehe and sleepless nights :P Oct 11 16:50
kentma yeah, plenty hehe Oct 11 16:50
AlbertoP anyyyyway, it’s not the end of anything! :> Oct 11 16:51
*AlbertoP pats the lovely Geeko Oct 11 16:51
kentma not at all, no… my kids have grown up with multiple operating systems :-) Oct 11 16:51
kentma Besides, when they get older,  you get to inflict all kinds of things on them – violin, piano, guitar, rugby, football, cricket, maths, more maths, art, physics, more physics, even more maths :-)) Oct 11 16:53
AlbertoP well, I’m not father but I won’t “inflict” anything Oct 11 16:54
AlbertoP I’m for “follow” their inclinations style :) Oct 11 16:54
kentma Perhaps your kids will do their homework without encouragement… mine are just beginning to do some of it without prompting – eldest is 14 now. Oct 11 16:54
kentma Teaching is fun, though – I enjoy it. Oct 11 16:55
AlbertoP well, I would be extremely inconsistent if I pushed them with that ^^ Oct 11 16:55
kentma wrong language – I help them, I don’t push them. Oct 11 16:55
kentma Sometimes I have to help them quite hard, of course ;-) Oct 11 16:56
AlbertoP I started to study in high school…before of that well, I was not exactly a good student, and what’s funny is that…I’m a researcher LOL Oct 11 16:56
kentma Schools are very regimented in many ways, and don’t necessarily suit bright/imaginative kids all that well, but… you still need to fit in to a point. Oct 11 16:57
AlbertoP Don’t know…it’s a delicate stuff. If someone pushed me, I would probably stopped to study or something Oct 11 16:57
AlbertoP well, I think schools don’t really value students much…they just throw notions down your throat Oct 11 16:58
kentma That’s one of the interesting problems – kids that age are rarely particularly good at assessing risks/rewards for particular actions, because they lack the experience. Oct 11 16:58
AlbertoP schools ofter are thought by adults thinking as adults Oct 11 16:58
kentma sorry, I didn’t get that one? Oct 11 16:59
AlbertoP well, it is quite simple: school should be thought _for_ kids, not for adults Oct 11 16:59
AlbertoP their way of learning is different Oct 11 16:59
AlbertoP they don’t learn using a systematic approach, but “linking” information Oct 11 17:00
kentma Ah, I see what you mean, yes.  I’m a school governor now, and work at lot with the head, senior teachers and so on, and pedagogy has changed significantly since I was at school.  In many respects, it’s for the better, but there’s always going to be ways to improve.  The main focus at my school is about teaching kids how to research and learn things themselves, and how to link things across curriculum lines. Oct 11 17:01
AlbertoP math is a good example…you can’t really teach math in an academic manner at kids ^^ Oct 11 17:01
AlbertoP and actually I think teaching math in an “academic” manner is always annoying for everyone, also for mathematicians ^^ Oct 11 17:02
AlbertoP kentma, where? US? Oct 11 17:03
kentma Maths is one of the most interesting subjects on the planet, but if you over-abstract it for younger kids, it’s just boring.  Same for physics, really. Oct 11 17:03
kentma Me – no, UK Oct 11 17:03
AlbertoP oh ok, I’m Italian, living in US now Oct 11 17:03
AlbertoP kentma, exactly Oct 11 17:03
kentma :-) Oct 11 17:03
AlbertoP actually over-abstract math is always a problem when you introduce new concepts Oct 11 17:04
AlbertoP and I speak on the basis of my experience…I’m almost a mathematician (chem. eng working in simulation) Oct 11 17:04
AlbertoP and after years…you read some new stuff and think “humm!” Oct 11 17:05
AlbertoP “back to the blackboard” Oct 11 17:05
kentma Sounds rather fascinating.  I’m a physics/electronics graduate, so I too have some experience here.  Anyway, if  you’re a football fan, I’ll make you envious – England are playing Khazakstan now – it’s on the telly. Oct 11 17:05
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AlbertoP hehe not a football fan :D Oct 11 17:06
kentma Fair enough… Personally, I like reading maths textbooks, but that’s just me ;-) Oct 11 17:06
AlbertoP going back to kids, I’ll surely need to learn how not to push on “my subjects” hehe Oct 11 17:06
kentma anyway – I must go  - see you soon. Oct 11 17:07
AlbertoP bye! Oct 11 17:07
kentma ciao Oct 11 17:08
AlbertoP :-) Oct 11 17:13
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schestowitz Innovation! I found it!!111 http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10… Oct 11 18:46
schestowitz trmanco: COLA stats are messy, due to the Microsoft Munchkins.. Oct 11 18:47
schestowitz AlbertoP: Andreas takes a paternity leave. Oct 11 18:47
schestowitz AlbertoP (catching up, been away): yes, but to some people like RMS, a project comes before kids. Oct 11 18:48
AlbertoP hum Oct 11 18:50
AlbertoP well, that’s a completely different idea of what life priorities are :) Oct 11 18:50
AlbertoP a project is a project, and stays something a loooooot lower than a kid Oct 11 18:51
schestowitz I don;t know Andreas’ age and I don’t want to discuss personal lives, but the point to make is that when people make fast progress they procrastinate the upbringing of children a little longer. Oct 11 18:54
schestowitz Marc Fluery, for example, went to spend more time with his kids (4 I think) after getting bored and all inside Red Hat. Oct 11 18:54
AlbertoP schestowitz, well, you’re European, so you should know something about European culture and family relations Oct 11 18:55
schestowitz Many Microsoft seniors did the same in 2007 and 2008 (they know Microsoft is suffering).  The Sleepycat guy also… it’s always for some reasons like “to do charity” or “spending time with family” Oct 11 18:55
AlbertoP and also about the perception of what a job is and what your life is…strongly separated things Oct 11 18:55
schestowitz Not in Novell… :-) Oct 11 18:56
AlbertoP Andreas position in openSUSE is exactly the same… Director Platform :) Oct 11 18:56
schestowitz I’m trying to find something. Oct 11 18:56
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schestowitz Along the way I found this *LOL* : Novell and mixed source < http://asay.blogspot.com/2005/06/novel… > (2005) Oct 11 18:56
schestowitz Oh, found it: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10008891-16.html Oct 11 18:57
schestowitz Anyway, some people told me stories about Novell and Mormons, but I have no ways to confirm any of this, so it’s just a rumour. Oct 11 18:57
AlbertoP lol Oct 11 18:58
AlbertoP I’d define Novell quite multi-ethnical Oct 11 18:59
AlbertoP US, Europe, India, China… Oct 11 18:59
schestowitz Well, that’s fine. Oct 11 18:59
schestowitz Yes Oct 11 18:59
schestowitz More of the latter in the futue. Oct 11 18:59
AlbertoP hehe well not that I care about their religion ^^ Oct 11 18:59
schestowitz Novell to invest $100 mln in India over 3 yrs : http://in.reuters.com/article/b… Oct 11 19:00
schestowitz Context: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/… Oct 11 19:00
AlbertoP we know we know… Oct 11 19:00
schestowitz My guess is that they will soon announce layoffs (Provo likely) and later on announce some hirings in the east. Oct 11 19:00
AlbertoP using suse has also that advantage…nice links in Firefox! Oct 11 19:01
AlbertoP :P Oct 11 19:01
schestowitz Which links? Oct 11 19:01
AlbertoP to suse and novell sites? Oct 11 19:01
AlbertoP and these info are there also ^^ Oct 11 19:01
schestowitz About India?!?!? Oct 11 19:02
AlbertoP hum? in the investor relations? Oct 11 19:02
AlbertoP don’t you think it’s normal? :) Oct 11 19:02
schestowitz Well, the guys at ELCOT will be thrilled. Oct 11 19:02
schestowitz Yes, it’s normal. Oct 11 19:03
AlbertoP btw, speaking of layoffs today is like speaking of hot water… Oct 11 19:04
AlbertoP just look at stocks, and see that no company is doing decently Oct 11 19:04
AlbertoP market is in panic, completely Oct 11 19:05
AlbertoP no comments about the electric outage? :) Oct 11 19:07
AlbertoP sabotage? index of the crisis? god against Novell? :P Oct 11 19:08
trmanco http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=3334 Oct 11 19:08
schestowitz AlbertoP: no, but I get E-mails about it. Oct 11 19:09
schestowitz 2 so far today, last one from Andreas some hours ago.. Oct 11 19:09
AlbertoP hehe well, pretty normal Oct 11 19:10
AlbertoP I feel I get the same emails ;) Oct 11 19:10
schestowitz AlbertoP: solace can be found in the fact that it’s a global thing (seen he Asian market?), so everyone is equally f*ed. Oct 11 19:10
schestowitz trmanco: thanks, I saw that earlier. Oct 11 19:11
AlbertoP well, not really US will save their butt and EU and others will pay for something they didn’t do… Oct 11 19:11
schestowitz Venezuela has already expressed this feeling through its academic institutions before. Oct 11 19:11
kentma this is a result of lots of stupidity.  There were really solid rules in place to keep retail banking separate from mortgaging separate from merchant banking, and Gordon Brown removed most of them.  The fool. Oct 11 19:11
schestowitz “The ODF Alliance previously listed 14 national governments and eight provincial governments as having adopted the ODF standard, with Venezuela adding more South American weight to the list.” Oct 11 19:11
schestowitz Now they have an excuse for “war for the ecnomy” Oct 11 19:12
AlbertoP in theory ODF should be an accepted format also in EU…but ehm Oct 11 19:12
schestowitz Bailout.. Oct 11 19:12
schestowitz Higher taxing.. Oct 11 19:12
schestowitz Inflation.. Oct 11 19:12
schestowitz AlbertoP: it is in places. Sweden being an example with more to follow Oct 11 19:12
kentma Perhaps.  bank base rates are falling, and so is the price of oil. Oct 11 19:12
schestowitz Microsoft shills seem to be flooding the comments in BN with lies. Oct 11 19:13
kentma I’m holding on buying my next 3,000 litres of oil for as long as possible :-) Oct 11 19:13
schestowitz kentma: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/220 Oct 11 19:13
kentma BN in trouble, Roy? Oct 11 19:13
AlbertoP schestowitz, for internal use Oct 11 19:13
AlbertoP a lot of public offices use pdf maybe, doc/rtf, but I didn’t see one ODF Oct 11 19:13
schestowitz “So far so good. But what does it mean to have cash in the bank, when banks themselves are failing? What does it mean to hold dollars, when the dollar is being debased in a way that would feel familiar to the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe? These are very dangerous times, and nobody should think otherwise.” Oct 11 19:14
schestowitz trouble? No, why? Oct 11 19:14
kentma Oh, I agree.  I’ve been predicting the demise of capitalism for some time, as you’ll no doubt recall. Oct 11 19:14
schestowitz kentma: when I wrote about OOXML I see anonymous posters coming and doing the MS handbook route.. Oct 11 19:14
kentma Um I’ll take a look… Oct 11 19:15
AlbertoP well, time to buy stocks >:) Oct 11 19:15
AlbertoP almost :P Oct 11 19:15
schestowitz IBM=ODF, IBM is “equally bad”, they even cite the same people, Oct 11 19:15
kentma AlbertoP: to a point,  yes, I only ever buy when things are low, but the hard part is finding the ones which actually have a future… Oct 11 19:15
schestowitz AlbertoP: …said the man who lost $1000 in a casino Oct 11 19:15
schestowitz Lost lots of money? Put MORE money on the table. Oct 11 19:15
AlbertoP hehe well, I didn’t lose a cent ^^ Oct 11 19:16
schestowitz Speaking of which, on my way to the gym a couple of hours ago I dropped a 20 pound note. :-O Oct 11 19:16
schestowitz $40 gone just like that! Because of my stupidity not using a waller these days.. Oct 11 19:16
AlbertoP kentma, there are a lot of companies with a rich future. They’re just there not on the mouth of everyone Oct 11 19:16
kentma schestowitz: there is a perfect casino bet – just keep doubling the stakes on roulette until you win.  It’s bound to work. Oct 11 19:16
kentma AlbertoP: indeed :-) Oct 11 19:16
AlbertoP kentma, energy companies, especially electric and nuclear Oct 11 19:17
schestowitz AlbertoP: everyone will lose. They’ll pay in other ways. Rent, inflation, house worth, tax, medicare, transportation. Oct 11 19:17
schestowitz kentma: that’s why they put betting limits. Oct 11 19:17
AlbertoP schestowitz, what are you saying? Oct 11 19:17
kentma AlbertoP: except many of them might be nationalised soon…  but in general, yes, utilities are a good bet in hard times. Oct 11 19:17
kentma schestowitz: yeah, I know … Oct 11 19:18
AlbertoP what has medicare, or transportation to do with stocks market? Oct 11 19:18
kentma AlbertoP: everything… Oct 11 19:18
AlbertoP the point is that there are _solid_ companies that will make money, that’s all what counts for stocks Oct 11 19:18
schestowitz AlbertoP: corporations run your country. Oct 11 19:18
AlbertoP schestowitz, what a nice quote from candies! Oct 11 19:19
kentma medicare is funded by trust funds, which are made up of stocks, which have collapsed. Oct 11 19:19
schestowitz That’s like saying “I don’t go to ‘war’ in Iraq”, so it doesn’t affect me. Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoP kentma, my medicare is public ^^ Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoP not really a trust fund LOL Oct 11 19:19
schestowitz http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VYlMEVTa-PI&NR=1 Oct 11 19:19
kentma AlbertoP: then it’s from taxation. Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoP kentma, so what? I’m happy to pay those taxes if it’s for my health…that’s not the problem. Oct 11 19:19
AlbertoP people should look to the ratio tax/services Oct 11 19:20
AlbertoP not to the amount of taxes Oct 11 19:20
kentma AlbertoP: I’m not saying it’s bad, but when lots of people lose their jobs, and the economy collapses, taxation won’t pay, either. Oct 11 19:20
AlbertoP in northern EU taxes are extremely higher Oct 11 19:20
kentma medical care in the US is exceptionally high – much higher than UK, for example. Oct 11 19:20
AlbertoP but they have not all the problems we think Oct 11 19:20
AlbertoP kentma, in a decent country, with smart rules, who earns more pays more and the service is accessible to everyone… Oct 11 19:21
AlbertoP kentma, yes, I know US situation…I live in US ^^ Oct 11 19:21
AlbertoP but there are a lot of misconception about that too Oct 11 19:21
kentma AlbertoP: I don’t disagree, but my point is a bit different – when the economy collapses, taxation systems are not necessarily better than share-funded systems was my point. Oct 11 19:21
AlbertoP well, share funded systems are proven not to work that well Oct 11 19:22
AlbertoP while a public service still remains open and accessible to those in need Oct 11 19:22
AlbertoP that’s the point Oct 11 19:22
kentma AlbertoP: well, okay, *but* when not enough people pay tax, those systems also start to fail was my point. Oct 11 19:23
AlbertoP yeah, but usually this simply increases the public debt…which is not good, but it is a far stronger pillow where you can fall over Oct 11 19:23
schestowitz Or people paying not enough tax rather. Oct 11 19:23
AlbertoP I mean, it can absorb a lot stronger shocks Oct 11 19:23
schestowitz Unless you ‘lose’ people Oct 11 19:23
schestowitz Or if they fall to welfare…. Oct 11 19:24
kentma Again, I still agree with you, but when economies start to fail, who will lend to them?  Perhaps the chinese will continue to fund the US economy? Oct 11 19:24
AlbertoP kentma, the economy fall the goes up again Oct 11 19:24
AlbertoP it’s cyclic…we know that Oct 11 19:25
schestowitz kentma: over 10 trillion in debt. Oct 11 19:25
AlbertoP we are just always unprepared everytime it happens because we don’t like the idea Oct 11 19:25
kentma In the 1930s, the great depression, there were terrible conditions around the world.  When things fail, there might be no more money to be had from anywhere. Oct 11 19:25
schestowitz “The US government’s debts have ballooned so badly the National Debt Clock in New York has run out of digits to record the spiralling figure.” Oct 11 19:25
schestowitz From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7… Oct 11 19:25
AlbertoP kentma, right…that’s where we still suck Oct 11 19:26
schestowitz kentma: some historian compared it to a situation in the late 19th cetury. Oct 11 19:26
AlbertoP we prefer to have crap conditions for everyone than working together…looks familiar eh? Oct 11 19:26
schestowitz Here’s a presentation about the GD: http://www.beranger.org/index.php?pag… Oct 11 19:27
AlbertoP well, we’ll see Oct 11 19:28
schestowitz More companies will becoome patent trols. Oct 11 19:28
schestowitz *trolls. Dog eat dog, just like after Katrina. Oct 11 19:28
AlbertoP hehe schestowitz that won’t be really something to worry about Oct 11 19:28
schestowitz They should call them “patent dogs”. They bite companies. Oct 11 19:28
AlbertoP if conditions will become really bad, the problem will be to live, not to use something open or patented or whatever Oct 11 19:29
AlbertoP until then, we have no real problems Oct 11 19:29
*libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 11 19:29
AlbertoP at least nothing that can’t be fixed with time and work Oct 11 19:30
schestowitz Yes. Oct 11 19:30
schestowitz /How/ much time is the question. Oct 11 19:30
AlbertoP well, we’ll probably just need to learn that not everything is “real time” Oct 11 19:31
schestowitz The Romans are no longer dominant. Oct 11 19:31
AlbertoP and this will be useful Oct 11 19:31
schestowitz The British Empire is no empire no more. Oct 11 19:31
schestowitz Germany does not control most of Euripe. Oct 11 19:31
AlbertoP ? Oct 11 19:31
schestowitz American dominance is stagnant. Oct 11 19:32
*moparx has quit (“leaving”) Oct 11 19:33
AlbertoP well, it will take the time it will take…it doesn’t really matter Oct 11 19:33
AlbertoP the problem is that we live in such an artificial world we would like an immediate solution Oct 11 19:34
MinceR how are you gentlemen !! Oct 11 19:34
schestowitz You’ll be fine, I’m sure. Oct 11 19:34
schestowitz I know friends who have debt to pay. Oct 11 19:34
AlbertoP hum? Oct 11 19:34
AlbertoP I’ll be fine? :) Oct 11 19:34
schestowitz It’s easy for those who will cope to opti-sympathise, but for some people it’s cause to become depressed or suicidal. Oct 11 19:34
schestowitz Or fall into crime/drugs. Oct 11 19:34
AlbertoP oh well, of course it’s not the problem that kills you, it _always_ how you react to it Oct 11 19:35
schestowitz Hey, MinceR. It’s anarchy. :-) Oct 11 19:35
MinceR that’s nice Oct 11 19:35
schestowitz ***update is available: Police-state-2.5.bin  – CLICK to download patch now *** Oct 11 19:36
*MinceR clicks uninstall Oct 11 19:39
schestowitz I was joking Oct 11 19:39
schestowitz It’s  Trojan Oct 11 19:39
MinceR it says “human” depends on police-state Oct 11 19:41
*MinceR uninstalls that too Oct 11 19:41
schestowitz Better than monkey (mono) Oct 11 19:41
*AlbertoP pats his mono apps ;) Oct 11 19:42
AlbertoP mono 2 received nice comments…if you except the “it poisons everything” fud Oct 11 19:43
schestowitz Or the Novell boosting…http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1… Oct 11 19:45
AlbertoP Oo Oct 11 19:45
AlbertoP ehh you think Novell is so powerful? LOL Oct 11 19:45
schestowitz More than most Oct 11 19:46
schestowitz Like PHP Oct 11 19:46
AlbertoP what did PHP do? Oct 11 19:47
schestowitz Compete with Java and other P/Ls Oct 11 19:52
schestowitz Novel is a ‘Microsoft company’. it promotes Microsoft stuff, just like ‘new Corel’. Oct 11 19:52
schestowitz We have old Novell, Novell, and ‘new Novell’ Oct 11 19:52
schestowitz Old Novell was a Microsoft rival that fought Microsoft tooth and nail. Oct 11 19:53
AlbertoP lol Oct 11 19:53
kentma schestowitz: that was a long time ago… Oct 11 19:53
AlbertoP N promotes MS stuff? Oct 11 19:53
schestowitz Novell was a struggling Microsoft victim that harnessed Linux Oct 11 19:53
AlbertoP where?? Oct 11 19:53
schestowitz New Novell is a Microsoft subsidiary Oct 11 19:53
schestowitz Yes Oct 11 19:54
schestowitz Novell promotes .NET (Mono), helps OOXML, etc. Oct 11 19:54
schestowitz Keep an eye on BN Oct 11 19:54
schestowitz it’s getting uglier. Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoP never heard of company partnership? pretty common in all fields: aerospace (boeing, airbus), medicine, engineering…IT… Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoP helps OOXML? Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoP .Net doesn’t need to be promoted LOL Oct 11 19:54
AlbertoP it is a reality Oct 11 19:55
kentma AlbertoP: what’s the difference between partnership & cartel?  oligopoly? Oct 11 19:55
schestowitz AlbertoP: it’s not. Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoP kentma, a cartel is a) illegal b) it is build with the specific purpose to block competition, a partnership is a simple agreement to reach a common goal, and if you read, that goal is a technical one. But of course you read among the lines… Oct 11 19:56
schestowitz That’s part of Novell’s hypnosis. Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoP schestowitz, haha Oct 11 19:56
schestowitz Java is well ahead of the pack. Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoP right right…read of people looking for developes…”java, and .Net experience required” Oct 11 19:56
kentma AlbertoP: I know that, it’s the *difference* I was asking your thoughts on… Oct 11 19:56
MinceR partnership with microsoft means helping them hold the industry back for money… and microsoft kills you once you aren’t useful to them any more Oct 11 19:56
schestowitz The whole song about “inevitable” is the damage imposed by shills like Enderle and Novell. Oct 11 19:56
AlbertoP kentma, I tend to read what words mean, not what I think they mean Oct 11 19:57
kentma AlbertoP: no problem, anyway, you’re Italian, so it’s probably much harder for you anyway. Oct 11 19:57
AlbertoP schestowitz, yes, and when you’ll stop speaking with sentences of someone else, we will start a real discussion based on facts :-) Oct 11 19:57
MinceR AlbertoP: “partnership” is what happened to SCO Oct 11 19:57
AlbertoP kentma, what does that mean? Oct 11 19:57
schestowitz SCO contributed to Linux. Yes, ‘really;… Oct 11 19:58
kentma reading in a 2nd language is more difficult Oct 11 19:58
schestowitz They were all cool with ‘the community;… Oct 11 19:58
AlbertoP kentma, nah not really ^^ Oct 11 19:58
MinceR AlbertoP: and the discussion based on facts starts the moment you stop ignoring the facts Oct 11 19:58
schestowitz Same with Novell. Oct 11 19:58
kentma e per me, signor! Oct 11 19:58
schestowitz Novell did Netware, SCO did UNIX Oct 11 19:58
AlbertoP MinceR, well, your facts have no proofs. Your whole discussion is based on your opinions. What should I pay attention to? To someone writing a ton of posts where the 99% is FUD and misinformation? Oct 11 19:59
MinceR AlbertoP: congratulations, you have just described yourself Oct 11 19:59
AlbertoP MinceR, I tried to explain to schestowitz that if you want to discuss you need to provide reliable references and real facts in an objective manner. Not using the first words coming to your mind to describe something you don’t know, to attract the attention of the reader and increase the number of impressions on your pages. Oct 11 20:00
MinceR AlbertoP: afaik he’s spent a lot of time collecting exactly the references and facts you’re talking about Oct 11 20:01
AlbertoP and if schestowitz is honest enough, he can confirm I started to come here quite open Oct 11 20:01
MinceR AlbertoP: here’s a hint: if you want to know the intentions of m$ and novell, don’t just ask them Oct 11 20:01
MinceR they’ll tell you what they want you to believe Oct 11 20:01
MinceR their actions speak for themselves Oct 11 20:01
kentma AlbertoP: I think you should consider journalism in a little more detail – most editors would fire you for what you just said… Oct 11 20:02
AlbertoP MinceR, hehe well, you underestimate a bit the readers ability, and overestimate your insight a lot. Which is the first mistake someone willing to bring information does. :) Oct 11 20:02
MinceR m$ has spent its entire existence trying to hold the industry back, trying to force their shoddy wares on everyone and doing anything they could to keep others from competing Oct 11 20:02
AlbertoP kentma, that’s why I’m not a journalist. I’m a scientist. Oct 11 20:02
MinceR novell has joined them in a short-sighted lust for money Oct 11 20:03
kentma AlbertoP: I, too, am a scientist, but I like to write as well :-) Oct 11 20:03
AlbertoP MinceR, ok. But why your sentences seem exactly the sentences coming out from RMS and friends mouths? Oct 11 20:03
MinceR AlbertoP: because to m$ cultists everything that doesn’t come from the m$ marketing engine sounds the same Oct 11 20:04
AlbertoP hehe MS cultists me? LOOOOL Oct 11 20:04
MinceR everyone who doesn’t get paid by m$ somehow seems the same reality Oct 11 20:04
MinceR and somehow gets a similar idea of what’s happening Oct 11 20:04
MinceR i wonder why Oct 11 20:04
AlbertoP right because you know that I’m paid by MS? and you know what I use on my PC? right? Oct 11 20:04
MinceR you either are or you’re just clueless Oct 11 20:05
AlbertoP right, because the fact of you being wrong is out of discussion hehe Oct 11 20:05
MinceR there’s no such fact Oct 11 20:05
kentma AlbertoP: If you think that there’s a really nice guy waiting to come out in all the shills, then I’m afraid that you are being naive.  It’s war out there…  there is little choice but to pick a side.  either you pick open and honest, or you sell your soul ;-) Oct 11 20:05
AlbertoP hehe Oct 11 20:05
MinceR AlbertoP: perhaps you could show some of the facts you’re talking about Oct 11 20:06
MinceR with proofs and references Oct 11 20:06
AlbertoP kentma, you know, “war” is such a bad word. And someone is already doing it for real. So I would not use it out of its real contest. Oct 11 20:06
AlbertoP MinceR, you’re the one saying there is a cospiracy. You should provide objective proofs, instead of opinions. Oct 11 20:07
AlbertoP opinions might be valuable, but they stay opinions Oct 11 20:07
kentma What makes you think it is out of context here?  What makes you think that it is not real? Oct 11 20:07
MinceR AlbertoP: how about some documents leaked from m$? Oct 11 20:07
MinceR AlbertoP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents Oct 11 20:07
AlbertoP kentma, war is made with guns and it’s not an easy word to use imho. Oct 11 20:07
MinceR not all wars are fought with guns Oct 11 20:07
kentma AlbertoP: no, war is made in many ways, and I think you are being naive. Oct 11 20:08
schestowitz MinceR: it’s the brainwash that has Novell say what pays the bill. Oct 11 20:08
AlbertoP hehe Oct 11 20:08
kentma AlbertoP: read The Art of War by Sun Tzu – fighting rarely comes into it. Oct 11 20:08
AlbertoP kentma, I know that…don’t worry Oct 11 20:08
MinceR AlbertoP: you don’t act like you do Oct 11 20:09
kentma AlbertoP: furthermore, where does diplomacy end and war begin? Oct 11 20:09
MinceR 221216 < AlbertoP> kentma, war is made with guns and it’s not an easy word to use imho. Oct 11 20:09
schestowitz I agree with AlbertoP about the use of the word “War” Oct 11 20:09
schestowitz It was brought up yesterday in the IRC channel. Oct 11 20:09
AlbertoP MinceR, sorry…I got contaminated by your style of statements ;) Oct 11 20:09
schestowitz Writing about something is not war. Oct 11 20:09
MinceR AlbertoP: this isn’t a matter of style Oct 11 20:09
kentma schestowitz: I didn’t say that writing was war, but it most certainly is an aspect of war. Oct 11 20:10
schestowitz And yet, when Microsoft’s internal docs say “evangelism is war” and compare marketing to “Jihad”, then I pause… Oct 11 20:10
MinceR AlbertoP: you’ve contradicted yourself Oct 11 20:10
MinceR at a point it turns into information warfare Oct 11 20:10
MinceR and m$ has long ago passed that point Oct 11 20:10
MinceR they know that Oct 11 20:10
MinceR we know that Oct 11 20:10
AlbertoP MinceR, about you reference: I don’t say MS is not trying to block OSS. My point is that your vision of the agreement with MS of Linux distributions (not only Novell), is not negative. And actually is a key advantage to make Linux grow in reasonable time, while developing alternatives Oct 11 20:11
MinceR AlbertoP: do you doubt that m$ is trying to destroy linux? Oct 11 20:11
kentma AlbertoP: that was a deeply naive statement. Oct 11 20:11
MinceR AlbertoP: or do you doubt that novell is serving m$? Oct 11 20:11
AlbertoP MinceR, you see? I read your mind :) Oct 11 20:12
MinceR AlbertoP: so you doubt both Oct 11 20:12
MinceR well let’s see Oct 11 20:12
schestowitz AlbertoP: Microsoft will use Novell and then kill it. Oct 11 20:12
schestowitz I;ve said so, others have said so, even Groklaw says so. Oct 11 20:12
schestowitz Novell is a tool now. Oct 11 20:12
AlbertoP I remember RH said Novell would have not been here in one year after the agreement hehe Oct 11 20:12
AlbertoP right, Novell is here, with growing revenues and stronger investments :) Oct 11 20:13
MinceR the first one is so obvious i can quote from ballmer Oct 11 20:13
schestowitz Had Novell not fought SCO, the Groklaw community too would be harsher in its criticism of Novell. Oct 11 20:13
MinceR http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02… Oct 11 20:13
MinceR “Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches,” Oct 11 20:13
schestowitz AlbertoP: growing revenue? Are you sure/ Oct 11 20:13
AlbertoP schestowitz, oh yes Oct 11 20:13
AlbertoP linux revenue is growing Oct 11 20:14
kentma AlbertoP: do you mean the payments from Microsoft? Oct 11 20:14
MinceR AlbertoP: as for the second part, i’m awaiting your plausible explanation of why novell pays m$ for the right of using patents ballmer says linux infringes on Oct 11 20:14
schestowitz Even with cash infusion (Microsoft in exchange for .NET, OOXML, etc.), Novell loses lots in legacy products. Oct 11 20:14
schestowitz It’s losing business to Microsoft to..,e g. GroupWise. Oct 11 20:14
MinceR AlbertoP: the only one we could find is that novell supports m$’s patent racket/fud campaign Oct 11 20:14
schestowitz AlbertoP: Novell !=Linux Oct 11 20:14
MinceR note that ballmer never stated which patents those would be Oct 11 20:14
schestowitz Don’t say “Linux revenue is growing” Oct 11 20:14
schestowitz Linux is like 10% of Novell. Oct 11 20:14
schestowitz Off the top of my head. Add or take aay 5% Oct 11 20:15
MinceR now, to anyone who isn’t a drooling idiot it’s obvious this means there are no patents and there’s no proof Oct 11 20:15
AlbertoP schestowitz, which doesn’t require to be an economist to understand it. Those legacy products are being in some case EOL’d, and in others are being completely redesigned, so it’s natural to see a reduction. Oct 11 20:15
kentma AlbertoP: um, no, it’s not natural at all. Oct 11 20:15
AlbertoP schestowitz, I meant, clearly, Linux revenue @ N is growing Oct 11 20:15
schestowitz AlbertoP: please understand that I used to advocate Novell. Oct 11 20:15
schestowitz You don’t need to defend them blindly. Oct 11 20:15
MinceR they aren’t defensible anymore Oct 11 20:16
AlbertoP kentma, it is natural. When you EOL a product, you won’t earn from it anymore ^^ Oct 11 20:16
MinceR novell made it pretty obvious where they stand. Oct 11 20:16
schestowitz They know what they did. Messman got the sack pretty much and IBMers are in chanrge now. Oct 11 20:16
kentma AlbertoP: EOLing is only done when there is a replacement product and lock-in in order to force migration, otherwise, it’s because nobody *wants* it, which is quite different. Oct 11 20:16
schestowitz The whole ‘patent consortium;. Oct 11 20:16
AlbertoP kentma, do you know something about Novell products? Oct 11 20:16
kentma AlbertoP: EOling is almost inevitably used to *increase* revenue, not decrease it! Oct 11 20:16
schestowitz IBM wants to prevent Red Hat/Oracle from getting too poerful Oct 11 20:16
kentma AlbertoP: I think I know rather more about how lock-in works than you appear to. Oct 11 20:17
schestowitz IBM already grew one monster (Microsoft) when they gave it some power with DOS and allowed it to abuse the market (e.g. FUD against OS/2) Oct 11 20:17
AlbertoP kentma, hehe nice…answering with an attack when you don’t have anything better ;) Oct 11 20:17
kentma AlbertoP: you *never* EOL something if it’ll cost you money – that would be stupid. Oct 11 20:17
kentma AlbertoP: I’m not attacking, sorry, I’m just stating the facts as I see them.  Your analysis is quite incorrect – I travel the planet lecturing on this stuff… Oct 11 20:17
AlbertoP kentma, you just showed you don’t know anything about Novell’s development plans and changes ^^ Oct 11 20:17
AlbertoP the loss came from NetWare mainly Oct 11 20:18
kentma AlbertoP: whatever, matey.   Clearly, you don’t work in marketing or business strategy… Oct 11 20:18
schestowitz kentma: case of point: XP Oct 11 20:18
AlbertoP which has been integrated into SLE, OES Oct 11 20:18
AlbertoP kentma, neither you ^^ Oct 11 20:18
kentma AlbertoP: wrong. Oct 11 20:18
schestowitz Had Microsoft been able to *force* Vista upon people and Linux sub-notebooks did not exist, XP would have eXPired. Oct 11 20:18
AlbertoP kentma, what wrong? Oct 11 20:18
schestowitz It’s all about money. Oct 11 20:18
kentma AlbertoP: you. Oct 11 20:18
schestowitz It’s not Microsoft’s goodwill with XP users. Oct 11 20:18
AlbertoP kentma, thanks. Oct 11 20:19
kentma AlbertoP: let me try again, you *never* EOL something unless you have a means to force migration onto a higher margin product; it’s suicide to do so. Oct 11 20:19
AlbertoP kentma, not really ^^ Oct 11 20:19
kentma AlbertoP: No need to thank me, just listen and consider what I’m saying. Oct 11 20:19
AlbertoP it’s an obsolete product Oct 11 20:19
schestowitz OpenSUSE 10.2 is EoL soon. Oct 11 20:19
kentma AlbertoP: obsolesence is something you *decide* on! Oct 11 20:19
AlbertoP kentma, haha Oct 11 20:20
kentma AlbertoP: you really need to think about how lock-in works! Oct 11 20:20
AlbertoP kentma, you’re the one thinking that Novell is locking in someone :) Oct 11 20:20
schestowitz Duh Oct 11 20:20
schestowitz Novell locks in even GNU/Linux users. Oct 11 20:20
schestowitz Mono, for starters. Oct 11 20:20
kentma AlbertoP: oh dear… lock-in is a natural and deliberate consequence of proprietary software, which causes an economic exit barrier. Oct 11 20:21
AlbertoP schestowitz, why? how? Oct 11 20:21
schestowitz Habitual lockin… your apps. Oct 11 20:21
AlbertoP my apps? Oct 11 20:21
schestowitz Yes. Oct 11 20:21
AlbertoP not really, Novell linux has exactly the same apps I can have on all the linux distros… Oct 11 20:21
MinceR and the data you access via those apps Oct 11 20:21
schestowitz Develo^1 Develo^1 Develo^1 and some users who get ‘addicted’ to tomboy , banshee and other .NET toys./ Oct 11 20:21
kentma AlbertoP: now you’re subject changing, we were talking about the legacy products being EOLed.  Are you being paid for this? Oct 11 20:22
AlbertoP right, because they’re not open, noooo Oct 11 20:22
schestowitz Even go-oo , which I will write about shortly. Oct 11 20:22
schestowitz Novell is a nasty company and more companies are beginning to hate as for they realise Novell is a Microsoft buddy. Oct 11 20:22
AlbertoP kentma, no. I’m having quite a bit of fun to read and answer though :) Oct 11 20:22
schestowitz Trust me, I receive E-mails. Oct 11 20:22
AlbertoP schestowitz, from? Oct 11 20:22
kentma AlbertoP: ah, you’re just trolling.  Fair enough – I’ll ignore you, then.  I thought you were intelligent, not a kiddy, sorry. Oct 11 20:22
schestowitz Can’t say Oct 11 20:23
AlbertoP kentma, hehe you know, I just feel funny to troll the trolls :) Oct 11 20:23
AlbertoP schestowitz, right, so no value until you can publish them :) Oct 11 20:23
AlbertoP your strategy: say something, then hide behind a “I can’t say” Oct 11 20:23
kentma schestowitz: I didn’t expect you to get trolls here, roy. Oct 11 20:23
MinceR AlbertoP: so until then we’ll just have to settle for reading novell ads to see if people hate novell or not Oct 11 20:24
AlbertoP kentma, the whole boy is trolling…what do you expect? Oct 11 20:24
schestowitz AlbertoP is an opensuse guy, but he’s polite. Oct 11 20:24
MinceR AlbertoP: because i’m sure they’d let us know if people did Oct 11 20:24
AlbertoP schestowitz, thanks ^^ Oct 11 20:24
AlbertoP MinceR, maybe because I see novell products around? I see suse adopted? I know and use it? Have you ever thought that mine might be a simple feedback of a user? Oct 11 20:25
schestowitz Also, the aim is to help OpenSUSE (community) understand that their time is better used not helping Hovsepian & Ballmer Co. Oct 11 20:25
MinceR AlbertoP: oh, i see… so if at least 1 person uses them, everybody loves them. very logical. Oct 11 20:26
AlbertoP MinceR, 1 person right… Oct 11 20:26
MinceR schestowitz: but is there anybody left there who even cares? Oct 11 20:26
AlbertoP MinceR, hehe it seems so. OpenSUSE has quite a bit of users :) Oct 11 20:27
schestowitz Many in Germany and part of Europe… Oct 11 20:28
AlbertoP schestowitz, btw, rumours are that N would like the community to be more independent :) Oct 11 20:28
AlbertoP schestowitz, actually in my field (HPC) suse is the indiscussed king among linuxes in US too Oct 11 20:28
MinceR lol Oct 11 20:28
MinceR here i’ve kept hearing how suse sucks even before it was bought by novell Oct 11 20:29
MinceR and i can tell from experience that the opensuse installer sucks really hard Oct 11 20:29
AlbertoP oh well, I won’t contraddict you about the installer if you tried it before 11.0 Oct 11 20:29
AlbertoP you should really know me a bit more hehe… Oct 11 20:30
MinceR i doubt i should Oct 11 20:30
MinceR you haven’t really shown any reasons to :> Oct 11 20:31
AlbertoP hehe well, you think I’m biased…read some of my comments on opensuse ML ^^ Oct 11 20:31
MinceR i’ve read some of your comments on this channel Oct 11 20:31
AlbertoP MinceR, well, the environment has an impact :-) Oct 11 20:32
AlbertoP would you mind if we link here #opensuse-comics? ;) Oct 11 20:34
AlbertoP MinceR, however… I’m always open to a fact-based discussion :) Oct 11 20:35
AlbertoP less open to “AJ retires from the board” = “It’s the end of an era!” Oct 11 20:36
MinceR i don’t know who AJ is Oct 11 20:36
AlbertoP Andreas Jaeger Oct 11 20:37
MinceR i still don’t know :> Oct 11 20:37
AlbertoP http://boycottnovell.com/ Oct 11 20:38
AlbertoP search there :) Oct 11 20:38
AlbertoP AJ is the director of opensuse platform :) Oct 11 20:40
MinceR well, i’ll leave that topic to schestowitz as i don’t really care about opensuse (other than wanting it to die with the rest of m$/novell) Oct 11 20:40
AlbertoP hehe right Oct 11 20:40
schestowitz AlbertoP: (catching up) I didn’t see anything about independence. Oct 11 20:40
AlbertoP because the consequences would be cost-free for linux right MinceR ? :) Oct 11 20:40
MinceR afaik novell owns the trademarks and some of the leaders of opensuse are on novell payroll Oct 11 20:40
schestowitz AlbertoP: IBM is the ‘seller’ of SUSE in HPC Oct 11 20:40
MinceR novell itself is on m$ payroll Oct 11 20:41
schestowitz Mainframes also. Oct 11 20:41
AlbertoP schestowitz, not only IBM Oct 11 20:41
MinceR AlbertoP: hopefully opensuse and novell will fail to harm linux even though they keep trying Oct 11 20:41
AlbertoP personally I have it here on HP machines Oct 11 20:41
*foobar__ (n=foobar__@p5496F14E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 11 20:42
AlbertoP MinceR, hehe right, because Novell doesn’t employ, let’s see, kernel, kde, gnome, openoffice, alsa developers…no really Oct 11 20:42
schestowitz MinceR: that’s correct. Novell has copyrights, trandmarks and AlbertoP openly admitted that Novell owned and controls the distro. Oct 11 20:42
MinceR i suppose they’re trying to harm them all Oct 11 20:42
AlbertoP MinceR, who are the two major (and only) contributors to ALSA? Oct 11 20:42
schestowitz He  contradicted benJIman Oct 11 20:42
MinceR AlbertoP: go look it up on the alsa homepage Oct 11 20:43
AlbertoP MinceR, oh I know, I just asked you :) Oct 11 20:43
schestowitz AlbertoP: HP = same rubbish. Oct 11 20:43
MinceR AlbertoP: meanwhile you could tell us why we should pay ballmer for the right of using patents that linux supposedly infringes on Oct 11 20:43
MinceR AlbertoP: because that’s what novell is telling everyone Oct 11 20:43
AlbertoP schestowitz, a valid hardware provider according to you? Oct 11 20:43
schestowitz HP is a Microsoft buddy. Everything else is usually posturing. Oct 11 20:43
schestowitz Even Bruce Perens, who held a high position there, spilled the beans on H-P Oct 11 20:44
AlbertoP MinceR, changing topic? :) Oct 11 20:44
MinceR AlbertoP: not really — this is the way novell harms our community; and this is the fact you keep ignoring Oct 11 20:44
schestowitz MinceR: Novell does say /that/. It says: but SUSE for “peace of mind” Oct 11 20:44
MinceR and “peace of mind” means FUD Oct 11 20:45
schestowitz A bit like saying “pay me so that nothing bad happens” vs. “give me your money or I blow your knees off” Oct 11 20:45
AlbertoP MinceR, actually Novell has a very limited protection from patents infringement, and limited to the two-three technologies involved in the agreement. Oct 11 20:45
MinceR which implies that not paying will cause something bad to happen Oct 11 20:45
MinceR AlbertoP: which is more than necessary seeing how nobody needs any protection from infringing on those patents Oct 11 20:46
AlbertoP and it is clearly written in the open letter that that protection is not absolutely general ^^ Oct 11 20:46
MinceR AlbertoP: remember that ballmer hasn’t told us what patents linux infringes on Oct 11 20:46
MinceR AlbertoP: also remember that no proof has been sold yet Oct 11 20:46
AlbertoP MinceR, I know that Oct 11 20:46
schestowitz AlbertoP: it’s not just patents they paid for. They paid to be promoted as preferred sellers and get cash infusions. Oct 11 20:46
MinceR AlbertoP: yet somehow novell keeps telling people they should pay Oct 11 20:46
MinceR AlbertoP: so where does this put novell? Oct 11 20:46
AlbertoP schestowitz, that’s part of the agreement of course. I don’t see the problem. It’s business. Oct 11 20:46
schestowitz Novell chose cash over the triumph of FOSS Oct 11 20:47
MinceR yeah, m$ keeps saying it’s just business Oct 11 20:47
AlbertoP hehe the triumph of what? Oct 11 20:47
schestowitz It also says and wants us to believe that Vista is inevitable. Oct 11 20:47
MinceR because if something is legal, it must be ethical, right/ Oct 11 20:47
MinceR ? Oct 11 20:47
schestowitz That the desktop is just a ‘hobby’ and Linux is ‘only for servers’…. AND only yo replace UNIX Oct 11 20:47
schestowitz Go to Novell’s homepage. Oct 11 20:47
schestowitz You’ll soon see. Oct 11 20:47
AlbertoP schestowitz, vista is not, but don’t expect people to live with XP forever or to use Linux instead automatically Oct 11 20:47
AlbertoP schestowitz, I’m pretty familiar with Novell’s site :) Oct 11 20:48
MinceR AlbertoP: there isn’t a lot else they can do Oct 11 20:48
foobar__ schestowitz please provide an url where the novell homepage says that. Oct 11 20:48
AlbertoP MinceR, oh they are simply waiting for the next windows :) Oct 11 20:48
MinceR which m$ said will be pretty much the same as vista Oct 11 20:48
AlbertoP foobar__, it doesn’t exist :) Oct 11 20:48
MinceR because vista under a different name will be perfect for everybody Oct 11 20:49
schestowitz foobar__: what’s up? What distro do you use? Oct 11 20:49
schestowitz I’m just checking to see. Oct 11 20:49
AlbertoP foobar__, look yourself: http://www.novell.com/linux/ Oct 11 20:49
MinceR i’m sure it ends with suse Oct 11 20:49
AlbertoP MinceR, vista is a transition release, clearly Oct 11 20:49
*foobar__087 (n=foobar__@p5496C4ED.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 11 20:49
MinceR yes Oct 11 20:49
AlbertoP they released it just to collect money Oct 11 20:49
MinceR a transition for everyone to linux Oct 11 20:49
foobar__087 sry, I got disconnected Oct 11 20:49
schestowitz Lots of foobars here. Oct 11 20:49
schestowitz Oh Oct 11 20:50
foobar__087 AlbertoP surely Roy wouldn’t invent this so it has to exist. Oct 11 20:50
MinceR well, windows is released just to collect money Oct 11 20:50
AlbertoP foobar__087, look yourself: http://www.novell.com/linux/ Oct 11 20:50
AlbertoP :) Oct 11 20:50
AlbertoP MinceR, as all products? :) Oct 11 20:50
MinceR no, not all products Oct 11 20:50
AlbertoP schestowitz, I still wait for the list of “good” hardware providers. We excluded HP, IBM… Oct 11 20:51
MinceR there are a lot of products the creators of which don’t get any money for them or from support for those products Oct 11 20:51
foobar__087 AlbertoP yes, but there I can’t find it so I was asking schestowitz if he could please cite the url where they state this. Oct 11 20:51
AlbertoP foobar__, you know…a company states things on their site…not on blogs ;) Oct 11 20:51
AlbertoP and btw, SLED is not a “joke”, considering it sells quite a bit :-) Oct 11 20:52
foobar__087 I would guess so, but there is no such statement. Oct 11 20:53
AlbertoP foobar__087, it seems the HP mini with sled is selling lot more than expected Oct 11 20:54
AlbertoP schestowitz, it’s RH actually that considers the linux desktop a lost battle, and thinks only to servers, at least according to their statements Oct 11 20:55
MinceR some people aren’t in on the joke that is SLED Oct 11 20:57
AlbertoP why is it a joke? Oct 11 20:57
foobar__087 AlbertoP I guess you are misunderstanding me. Although I wouldn’t use SLED I was wondering where Novell stats that linux is a joke on the desktop & only for servers since schestowitz said this and I wasn’t able to find it on Novell’s site. Oct 11 20:58
MinceR because it’s suse — you pay money for it and yet it sucks Oct 11 20:59
AlbertoP I know quite big realities using it, and quite happily. For example N was selected by our parliament to migrate to Linux… Oct 11 20:59
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