Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications
I HAVE only just noticed some referrals coming from this post of Microsoft Watch. Check out the arguments in the comments thread. The author is also censoring comments and someone called “Mary Jo” (Foley?) has told a poster to “go suck on a razor blade and get over it.”
Ouch. █
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G. Michaels said,
January 1, 2009 at 4:53 pm
You should mention that “Goblin” is one of your regulars here, and if anyone doubts that they can use Google Site Search to find his comments on the articles and on the IRC logs. Did you forget to mention that?
Now personally I think this Goblin person is one of the more clear-headed of the BoycottBoys, but still, you seem to attract the kind of “advocate” that does nothing but disrupt communities and insult people, calling them “shills” and “astroturfers” if they disagree with the BoycottDogma or just don’t say enough bad things about Microsoft or Novell.
And speaking of referrals, have you noticed by any chance all the ones you get from Slashdot? There’s this guy there that goes by the handle ‘twitter’, a rather notorious troll that maintains a stable of dozens of accounts which, among other things, he uses to promote your blog. You have noticed that, have you not?
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Goblin said,
January 1, 2009 at 6:06 pm
“Now personally I think this Goblin person is one of the more clear-headed of the BoycottBoys, but still, you seem to attract the kind of “advocate” that does nothing but disrupt communities and insult people, calling them “shills” and “astroturfers” if they disagree with the BoycottDogma or just don’t say enough bad things about Microsoft or Novell.”
I hope that is not refering to me. Any reader of MS watch will see, I have infact defended the position of an MS employee on MSwatch and defended them against what I believed was unfair attack.
It is very easy to tell a shill post from a legitimate user. A legitimate poster does not post PR statements, a legitimate user which acknowledge (and sometimes praise) an alternative product. Shill posts are very different, and its funny how all the people I accused of being shills were users who had multiple handles from the same IP (confirmed by Joe Wilcox)
The only other shill on that site IMO is Andre Da Costa, and I dont believe there is any argument there. He renowned all over the net for the same behaviour.
I do believe Roy has mentioned me before, and since the thread that linked here was originally posted by the user “Chips” and since the shillers took to impersonating many people (including Joe Wilcox), I dont see why its relevant.
Mr Michaels, in your professional opinion after reading that thread, can you honestly say there is no deception going on there? Can you honestly say that there are not those who are trying to distort and fudge a message? Have I or any other open source supporter there said anything false? I think you’ll find that yes, I did claim many people shillers, and I was right. Joes removed their posts and I believe IP banned them.
Mr Michaels I ask you to retract your comment of “….disrupt communities and insult people” – If you look, the only ones doing that were the people trying to pimp MS products. I think you have brought your complaint to the wrong site, maybe you should complain over at Microsoft.com.
For the record of everyone else. I am not a “boycott boy” I act completely independently of this and any other site. My only connection to this site is that I sometimes post comments and I occasionally visit the IRC room. I am neither encouraged nor supported to post on MS watch.
Just clearing that up.
G. Michaels said,
January 1, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Yes I do, actually. Very much so, and with apologies to you. I did not take the time to read through the entire thread, and I can see that you were not disrupting anything. Again, my apologies for that.
However…
What I see there is a lot of disruption from people who think they’re doing FOSS good by posting rather lame bullshit (because, I wonder, who are they shilling for?), including links to this site, and some other people who are feeding the obvious anger from the “M$ Vista bluescreen 7 LOLOL I use Linux and I’m so superior and MIKKRO$HAFT SUCKS” crowd.
All very childish and tiresome, in my opinion.
Perhaps that particular thread on that particular site are not the best examples of people who use Microsoft products and take the time to engage in discussions about them (or the company itself), just like I do not consider BoycottBoy and his blog to be the apex of FOSS advocacy by any extent (rather just the nadir).
Not everyone who says something positive about Microsoft or their products is a “shill”, or employed by them. To go further into what people like Roy & Co. consider “guilt”, not everyone who doesn’t attack Microsoft is also a Microsoft employee, shill or astroturfer.
In fact I have yet to see a single example of someone who truly looks like they are pretending to be innocent bystanders repeating a PR line, and believe me, I read and post to Slashdot every day, and I have, for the past five years or so. You would think Slashdot of all places would be the perfect battleground for Microsoft to do battles of perception, no?
Let me give you an example. Just out of curiosity sometimes when I see a level-headed comment in a thread about, say, how much the Vista UAC sucks or something like that (a topic that has been milked to death as a bullet point by people like Roy and twitter), I do a bit of research on the user doing that. In all honesty I have never been able to find someone whom I would call “suspicious” in any way. You have people for example that have been registered for years on Slashdot, have 1000+ comments (or more), post regularly about just about every topic, perhaps are sysadmins or a developers, and then suddenly post a comment about how all that bullshit about UAC is just not true. This is the kind of action that would immediately get someone labeled a “shill” by many rather paranois FOSS types, yet realistically that simply cannot be true! It would involve an amazing amount of effort that is extremely hard to fake, to say the least.
Maybe these people exist, I don’t know. When I was involved in the Java CTP and other communities I knew a lot of people who had nothing to do with Sun yet felt passionate about the technology (the Apache folks especially), and yet for all practical purposes sounded like “PR hacks” because they were expressing the same opinions as actual Sun employees.
Certainly for all the whining that Roy does about being “targeted” by Microsoft, I’ve yet to see a single shred of evidence that he is indeed a victim of Microsoft’s devious doings, or that the people he claims are somehow engaged in dishonest activities on their behalf are indeed doing that, at least beyond the level of personal blogs or comments on websites. I’ve asked him repeatedly to please show me something that backs up his claims, but I’ve been simply ignored.
On the other hand, I for example have clear evidence of friends of his who promote his blog elsewhere using less than honest tactics and without disclosing the fact that they are collaborators of his, and I have evidence of Roy and the owner of slated.org stacking up on and smearing a Wikipedian without cause, simply because they are paranoid and always assume the worst.
So even considering that, again, “MS Watch” is probably not the best place to use as an example, just like, say, that newsgroup that Roy regularly floods with links isn’t either, perhaps you should reconsider your claims that people are “shills” simply because they sound differently than you expect them to.
Let me give you another example. I use Server 2003 and Vista (here an honest observation: Vista is unusable with 1GB of RAM, but double that and it’s perfectly fine) as desktops at home, XP at work, and I think they’re OK. Not the end-all of computing of course, but OK. All my applications run on them, and I don’t have virus or malware problems. I let Windows Update run when it wants, it applies patches, I get a cup of coffee, reboot every 30 days or so, etc. I use my computers as tools, and they work for me. My wife and her MacBook are the same. They don’t die mysteriously, catch fire, make scary noises or smell like sulphur.
The above paragraph I just typed is PRIME EVIDENCE that I work for Microsoft, in the eyes of many people. What about yours? Let me tell you the extent of my reliance on Microsoft software: zero. I work with Emacs, Lotus Notes, Firefox and various Java tools and DB clients, all of which also run in Linux. So technically I could chuck Windows tomorrow and just use, say, Ubuntu. I don’t have a lot of experience with Linux as a desktop, but I’m sure I could adapt. I’ve been using Unix since Solaris was first thrust upon the world on shiny Sun hardware. And yet, I use Windows. Because, well, it’s there. And it’s OK. Mostly. I don’t play games except on a Wii, so I don’t even have that common excuse for dual-booting between XP and Linux.
So don’t think people who are not as passionate as you about how “evil” Microsoft is or isn’t are also “shills” or employed by Microsoft to troll random websites. I think that’s paranoia at best. I buy the idea that they might try to manipulate the mainstream media, sure, because every corporation does (or tries to do) that. But hiring people to post idiotic comments on MS Watch? Or here? Please.
And may I suggest, for your mental health, that you stop posting on there?
What do you think you’re accomplishing there? Let the trolls troll and do your thing. If you’re honest and open about it, and discard the paranoia and schizophrenia that other people around here seem afflicted with, you’ll be fine.
Anyway… my apologies again, I definitely jumped the gun there.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Jose_X said,
January 2, 2009 at 12:58 am
Correctly or not, I think Roy tries to show money connections that may exist. There are many people with interests in Microsoft ecosystem. Of course not all will be paid directly by Microsoft if at all. Some apparent catches are easy to make (for whatever that would be worth), but we can’t really know who has what agenda.
Money connections is something that many people like to factor into their judgments.
>> Let me tell you the extent of my reliance on Microsoft software: zero.
You know that makes no sense if you are using Windows, the most important product Microsoft produces. You consume the product most useful to Microsoft.
Are you aware of the rap sheet Microsoft has and of the dangers in giving a single company complete control over the software used in so many places for fairly important things (thankfully, not every individual user or business or other group is that foolish).
>> All my applications run on them, and I don’t have virus or malware problems. I let Windows Update run when it wants, it applies patches, I get a cup of coffee, reboot every 30 days or so, etc.
[Shaking head] Ignorance *is* bliss.
>> And may I suggest, for your mental health, that you [Goblin] stop posting on [MS Watch]?
Reading some of your postings here, perhaps you would gain by taking your own advice but as concerns boycottnovell, at least if you want to avoid grief.
Roy Schestowitz said,
January 2, 2009 at 2:48 am
Jose,
Those posting in Microsoft Watch are often — for a verifiable fact — part of the Microsoft ecosystem.
goblin said,
January 2, 2009 at 8:56 am
Moving on from the underhanded practices, a little. The only debate (and cause for disagreement) between myself and other open source supporters is the impartiality between Joe Wilcox and Microsoft (not that its an issue, merely a different viewpoint)
I actually have a respect for Joe, I believe that he has integrity, and whilst this is not due to any conclusive proof that I can offer anyone, its merely my “gut feeling” on his actions and his IMO posts.
I sometimes think an over enthusiastic Linux user can ruin the message we have to put across, and whilst I am probably guilty of “over enthusiasm” its sometimes very difficult because I so strongly believe in the value and functionality of open source and also the software freedoms that people should be at least informed of.
Ive said on my blog before that I hope the pro-ms posters are not well meaning Linux supporters trying to expose MS issues. I do not believe we need to resort to deceptive tactics to bring people to Linux. If they do come over, great, if they dont then thats fine as well. As long as that decision was reached as part of an informed choice, I really have no problems.
I would hope everyone researches any subject before making a decision, and Im sure that all readers here have done and that is why Roy has so many supporters.
I would also like to think that, just like in a court room with opposing Barristers, when we are not talking about MS/Novell/FOSS/Apple issues, we could all be civil and have a decent conversation, I dont think it really matters what side of the fence people fall.
Unfortunately IMO there are some who cannot, as their sole purpose for posting is not because of an honest held belief, its because they are being paid to do it.
I am very flattered Mr Michaels that you would be concerned for my mental health, although it is one of the insults that certain posters do throw when trying to belittle someones view (Check out Hary Gobs, who openly states I am mentally unstable)
My mental health is of no consequence, and to be fair I dont see how its relevant when Im at least coherent in my posts.
I do not expect anyone to listen to what I say, I simply would hope that maybe they would do their own research as a result of it.
G. Michaels said,
January 2, 2009 at 7:40 pm
Unfortunately he has proved absolutely nothing that I can see so far. All he has are quotes from Microsoft documents and people he dislikes.
Sure, I’m also aware of the rap sheet every corporation has. The fact that they make software is irrelevant to that.
Oh, I get it. My computer is rooted and I don’t know it is. Yes, clever.
MS Watch looks like a troll nest, while you and the other people of Roy’s slobbery cadre are much more interesting because you seem to actually believe all this tripe he types up. I’m positively fascinated by that.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
G. Michaels said,
January 2, 2009 at 7:41 pm
I’m sure you can point me to the evidence then? I’d love to see it.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
G. Michaels said,
January 2, 2009 at 7:46 pm
@Goblin,
Looks to me like it’s always the same 5-8 people everywhere.
I think the problem is that you call it a “belief”. If you say “LOL JAVA IS SLOW AND IT SUCKS LOL” then I might have something to say about that, but it’s not because I “believe” in Sun Microsystems. Similarly, when Roy or twitter say “M$ IS DYING” I might have a dissenting opinion (especially based on the flimsy “evidence” they provide), but that doesn’t mean Microsoft pays me to present it.
That was meant as a joke, but I’m sorry you take it so seriously. Perhaps that’s what I was referring to when I said it’s probably better to not go there at all.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Goblin said,
January 4, 2009 at 5:31 am
Quote “That was meant as a joke, but I’m sorry you take it so seriously. Perhaps that’s what I was referring to when I said it’s probably better to not go there at all.”
A sarcastic and flippant remark made by myself Mr Michaels.
I know you are a far more intelligent person than that, and I didnt have to explain it to you. Dont play the ignorant troll. I know you are not.
I would not suggest you are either paid by MS or have any particular allegiance to them. I dont know.
Going off topic for a second Mr MIchaels, I wonder if you could give your opinion and answer a question Ive asked many times of many people and never recieved an answer.
I hope since this post in now quite old, Roy wont mind me indulging in something I would love to hear an answer to from someone who seems to deny any facts that put MS in a bad light.
The question is this:
Given that XP had years of happy customers giving feedback and comments on the OS, did Microsoft take all this on board and release Vista? Does Vista represent the best of XP?
I would sincerely love to hear your opinion. It wont be argued with. I am genuinely interested.
G. Michaels said,
January 4, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Um, OK.
I think Vista should have been XP SP4. It was overhyped and ended up delivering less than it promised. It also does not run particularly well on less than 2GB of RAM, in my experience.
But I don’t think it’s the “failure” that your friend Roy likes to paint it as. Microsoft is hobbled by their own success in the sense that they can’t wipe the slate clean or they’ll eliminate their most important strategic asset: backward compatibility. So Vista ended up being a sort of compromise, and demonized for not being identical to XP, plus demonized for being too similar to it.
Honestly, I don’t get riled up about Vista or XP or Ubuntu. I use operating systems to run applications, not as targets of derision or adoration. As long as my stuff works OK, I’m happy.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Goblin said,
January 4, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Nice response, but you didnt answer. Ill break it down further.
Does Vista represent “the best of XP” in your opinion?
Quote “But I don’t think it’s the “failure” that your friend Roy likes to paint it as.”
I believe I mention the Vista failure more than Roy does,.
I am beginning to change my mind about your reasons for posting here. If you cant admit here that Vista is probably the worst thing that MS has ever inflicted on the public, in the face of mass complaints, bugs, court cases and general disgust. I have doubts that you are truly impartial.
Vista has been more than a failure in software terms, not only did it not live up to the hype, but, IMO it was one of the causes of migration away from the Microsoft platform.
Even now, Windows 7 is being tarnished by the ghost of Vista and for you to say that Vista should have been XP SP4, is the most proposterous thing I have ever read, since so many people either dont want it, or want to downgrade (putting aside the compatibility issues, the poor performance, and the SKYNET specs it requires just to function at an acceptable pace) Making Vista , XP SP4 would have been like Microsoft intentionally damaging a product which people actually found stable.
Since you dont seem to believe Vista is a total failure, perhaps you should check out the petition for keeping XP, and then reconsider your opinion. Or maybe ask yourself why on the latest MS advertising campaign there is no mention of the V word, and MS seem to be trying to distance themselves from it.(IMO)
Roy Schestowitz said,
January 5, 2009 at 3:27 am
Disguised marketing people sometimes masquerade of FOSS people. Ask Groklaw.
Goblin said,
January 6, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I would hope that Mr Michaels lack of response is simply due to him having other commitments rather than not wanting to answer my question properly.
Roy Schestowitz said,
January 6, 2009 at 5:56 pm
It would be better not to feed them.
G. Michaels said,
January 11, 2009 at 12:20 am
I apologize. Apparently Microsoft does not pay me enough to “heckle” blogs 8 hours a day, so alas I must keep separate means of employment that actually bring home the bacon, as it were
Whether Vista is “the worst thing ever” is irrelevant to why I post here, is irrelevant to Microsoft, and if you’re expecting me to follow your leader’s spiel and declare myself one of the Vista haters (like his nymshifter collaborator), then you’re in for a long wait.
Do you honestly think I’m twelve years old and dumb enough to not see through something that lame?
Maybe you find this difficult to believe, but I just do not care. It runs my apps, so I use it. End of story. If that level of non-engagement is enough for you to declare me a “troll” or a Microsoft FTE (which I guess in your opinion is the same), then so be it. I’d really have a hard time bringing myself to care about that, either.
On the other hand, if you can point out where in internetdom I have sang the praises of any operating system, and flush with excitement recommended people buy it without reservations, I’d be grateful. I can’t even bring myself to be particularly excited about Solaris, which is what I consider closest to the vision that those nice people at Bell Labs gave us so many years ago.
Programming languages now, that’s another story. We can have a Java-vs-C# internet fight if you want
But seriously, we’re done. When your idea of a discussion is “you better agree with me or you’re obviously evil” then there’s really nothing more to discuss. Maybe that’s why you seem to have so many problems elsewhere.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
G. Michaels said,
January 11, 2009 at 12:49 am
Excellent advise. Better directed at your friend Slated, if I may be so bold. But then you probably know that already
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Goblin said,
January 12, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Quote “Do you honestly think I’m twelve years old and dumb enough to not see through something that lame?”
Er well yes I do. I agree, the question is leading, but then I put it to you that if you have no connection with MS then it doesnt matter does it?
In regards to that question, I would answer “No”, No Vista doesnt represent the best of XP. But then I have no financial ties to them. Why you cant answer a simple question merely highlights the “suspicion” I have that you are someway connected with them, and since your online identity is known, I put it to you that is the reason you dont want to make a comment.
I know Roy says dont feed the trolls. I think though Mr Michaels that you are a little more.
Quote “you better agree with me or you’re obviously evil”
Looks like you owe me another appology, retract that remark. I never said that, nor implied it. Youve been here before Mr Michaels havent you? You have had to retract comments previously.
Quote “Maybe that’s why you seem to have so many problems elsewhere.”
What on earth is that supposed to mean?