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01.04.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 3rd, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 5:46 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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Enter the IRC channel now

schestowitz >> “Oh I have IDC actually sending the draft of thier TCO report to MS for review and comment as well” Jan 03 13:02
schestowitz mib_o21sxr: which would that be? Jan 03 13:02
schestowitz I know of one where Kevin Turner, IIRC, tries to gag a sponsorship disclosure. Jan 03 13:03
MinceR actually no apple products are work devices Jan 03 13:03
MinceR they only make toys Jan 03 13:03
schestowitz Is this related to the “developing markets” study? Jan 03 13:03
MinceR Fisher-Price My First Computer  http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.ph… Jan 03 13:03
schestowitz *LOL* http://curiousphotos.blogspot.com/2008/03/… Jan 03 13:05
schestowitz I was trying to find some Mac ad, but this one came up Jan 03 13:05
MinceR http://www.sys-con.com/node/45218 Jan 03 13:10
mib_o21sxr hah don’t get me started on O’Gara Jan 03 13:12
mib_o21sxr I have an email from MS where they specifically say she will plant an unattributed story for them Jan 03 13:13
mib_o21sxr and where she will ask questions for them so it “looks better” Jan 03 13:13
MinceR lol Jan 03 13:13
mib_o21sxr she’s bought and paid for Jan 03 13:13
schestowitz Yes Jan 03 13:14
schestowitz Someone mailed me today with a reference to her Jan 03 13:14
schestowitz Mostly BS of course. Jan 03 13:14
MinceR the article i linked isn’t pro-m$ though Jan 03 13:14
schestowitz But it’s marked “PERSONAL”, so I can’t share Jan 03 13:15
*schestowitz organises some gems about OLPC Jan 03 13:15
mib_o21sxr i can share the MS mail using her name Jan 03 13:15
mib_o21sxr hold one Jan 03 13:15
schestowitz I have 4 posts about MS coming. Jan 03 13:15
schestowitz I just need to tody them up Jan 03 13:16
schestowitz *tidy Jan 03 13:16
schestowitz mib_o21sxr: I wrote about ittwice Jan 03 13:16
schestowitz I know the person who sent it to Groklaw too Jan 03 13:16
mib_o21sxr http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsumercase… Jan 03 13:16
mib_o21sxr oh :( i didn’t see your write up on it Jan 03 13:16
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/04/planting… Jan 03 13:17
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/03/mi… Jan 03 13:17
schestowitz MOG of Hollywood: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/10/maur… Jan 03 13:17
schestowitz microsoft.com was down. :-S Jan 03 13:18
mib_o21sxr you have the IDC report being mailed to microsoft for review before being published Jan 03 13:18
mib_o21sxr ? Jan 03 13:18
oiaohm That would need more careful inspection.  Was MS the only one they sent it to for review.  mib_o21sxr  Because if they sent to many parities from both sides it would be valid and above board. Jan 03 13:20
mib_o21sxr http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsu… Jan 03 13:21
mib_o21sxr what do you think? Jan 03 13:21
mib_o21sxr i also have “I hate to put it like this, but at this point, IDC is done negotiating with us. We have moved them quite a bit already, but they are now holding the line, saying that if we want the names of their ‘big’ analysts on the report this is it.” Jan 03 13:21
mib_o21sxr in a different email Jan 03 13:21
schestowitz Woo. This is new to me. Jan 03 13:22
schestowitz That also kills IFG’s credibility Jan 03 13:22
mib_o21sxr oh? hooray i have some more email on that IDC report then Jan 03 13:22
schestowitz They are denialists for Microsoft Jan 03 13:22
mib_o21sxr hold one Jan 03 13:22
schestowitz Advertisers, whetever… they have LOTS of new sites. Jan 03 13:22
mib_o21sxr http://antitrust.slated.org/www.iowaconsu… Jan 03 13:22
schestowitz IDC is a shill for Microsoft for many other reasons that I covered Jan 03 13:23
schestowitz See for example: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09… Jan 03 13:23
schestowitz And http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/14/id… Jan 03 13:23
schestowitz That one from Johnson I’ve seen before Jan 03 13:25
oiaohm That first documents alone is not enough to win case.  Problem you would have to be sure they had not contacted other parties for review.  Action is suspect but that is as far as it goes. Jan 03 13:29
oiaohm Secound one if the matching document has had that MS funded it removed that is a real breach of standards. Jan 03 13:29
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oiaohm There is a reason why in a court case many documents are presented mib_o21sxr.   Because many times  they are needed on combination to prove action in anti-trust case. Jan 03 13:32
oiaohm Yes hard bit is making sure you have worked out jigsaw so your own ass is covered. Jan 03 13:32
mib_o21sxr right … mainly I’m focused on: http://meandubuntu.wordpress.c… Jan 03 13:33
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, that second one I documented in like 50 posts of mine :-) Jan 03 13:33
mib_o21sxr but i keep a note of any interesting “other stuff” to pass along Jan 03 13:33
mib_o21sxr like the OLPC one and so forth Jan 03 13:33
schestowitz In face, afterwards it reached the ‘press’ too Jan 03 13:33
schestowitz Bmighty Jan 03 13:33
mib_o21sxr i know most of it is old and known, but maybe sometimes there is something new in the exhibits Jan 03 13:34
oiaohm Interlinks between the documents are important at times to get there context mib_o21sxr Jan 03 13:34
schestowitz That’s a very good colelction Jan 03 13:35
mib_o21sxr thanks! Jan 03 13:35
MinceR “the MacBook Air is easily the most expensive, worst value for the dollar computer I have ever owned–and I have a Cube sitting in a closet somewhere.” Jan 03 13:35
MinceR sounds like somebody who doesn’t learn from his mistakes Jan 03 13:35
schestowitz Jim Gray (Microsoft Research): “Linux is a cult that captures the best-and-brightest kids.” Jan 03 13:36
schestowitz He died about 6  months ago Jan 03 13:36
MinceR the others should follow his example Jan 03 13:36
MinceR it’s funny how these cultists are all-too-eager to call everyone who disagrees with their cult a “cultist” Jan 03 13:37
schestowitz Yes Jan 03 13:37
schestowitz Hypocrites Jan 03 13:37
MinceR i know a microsoft cleric who has done the same to me recently Jan 03 13:37
mib_o21sxr Yeah, that is one of my pet peeves, trying to illustrate that a bit there Jan 03 13:37
schestowitz A government delegates compared Microsoft to “Scientology cult” Jan 03 13:37
schestowitz *delegate Jan 03 13:37
mib_o21sxr That’s why it’s important FLOSS activists try to stick closer to facts and solid, logical arguments Jan 03 13:38
schestowitz mib_o21sxr: I’ll use these to cover the stuff more extensively, with attrib. Jan 03 13:38
mib_o21sxr please feel free Jan 03 13:38
schestowitz It’s a goldmine for oldie Jan 03 13:38
schestowitz *oldies. I have some in http://boycottnovell.com/comes-io… Jan 03 13:39
schestowitz You’ll find many additions highlighted ther.e Jan 03 13:39
mib_o21sxr cool Jan 03 13:40
oiaohm Please make sure the documents you are using provide enough evidence not to bite mib_021sxr.  We need researchers and collectors of this kind of information.  Not getting themselfs into trouble because the document alone does not provide the enough to prove wrong doing. Jan 03 13:43
mib_o21sxr Well I’m not trying to prove anything there, just giving quotes and my thoughts on them Jan 03 13:43
mib_o21sxr do you think there is some danger there? i’m new to this and open to comments Jan 03 13:44
oiaohm Quotes on something badly out of context can get you in trouble mib_o21sxr. Jan 03 13:44
oiaohm I am not saying don’t do it.  Just be sure of your position before risking foot in mouth. Jan 03 13:44
mib_o21sxr Well, I link to the source for every single quote Jan 03 13:44
oiaohm Its just care.   Some cases a document can seam to point one way when it is the other way just due to context. Jan 03 13:46
mib_o21sxr i see your point. I’m sort of basing my effort off of ESR’s on the Halloween memos so I might adopt some of his language Jan 03 13:47
mib_o21sxr for a little for CYA Jan 03 13:47
mib_o21sxr *a little more CYA Jan 03 13:47
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schestowitz oiaohm: yes, I link to them Jan 03 13:50
schestowitz But we need OCR Jan 03 13:50
MinceR m$ cultists don’t care about facts and logic Jan 03 13:50
schestowitz I’ll ask readers for help Jan 03 13:50
MinceR they’re write-only Jan 03 13:50
oiaohm Classic exampe of context.  Is australian wine makers though french wine makers calling there wine machine like.  Turn out the french were prasing on constant quality the Australian were producting. Jan 03 13:50
oiaohm and the Australian though it whas being critical. Jan 03 13:51
schestowitz I’m just rechecking the arguments in the mail Jan 03 13:52
schestowitz I got the perfect photo now. Jan 03 13:53
oiaohm MinceR worst part I find lot of so called MS cultists think they know the facts are are following logic. Jan 03 13:53
schestowitz http://www.sxc.hu/photo/684875 Jan 03 13:53
oiaohm Why logical argument with correct facts does win against them. Jan 03 13:53
mib_o21sxr it might not win against them – but *nothing* will win against them – it *will* win against truly neutral and interested parties though Jan 03 13:55
oiaohm Its sorting the two out mib_o21sxr Jan 03 13:55
schestowitz OK, I’m too negligent to write much that’s original. I’ll just post some bits of the convoersation Jan 03 13:55
mib_o21sxr that’s why good arguments are more important than “scoring points” Jan 03 13:55
mib_o21sxr oiaohm: sure it’s hard to sort out, but I’m saying it doesn’t matter, just make the best solid logical argument you can and then leave it at that Jan 03 13:56
mib_o21sxr i know it’s hard, but it is effective in the log run Jan 03 13:56
mib_o21sxr (i tell myself anyway :) ) Jan 03 13:56
mib_o21sxr (it’s hard to fight the human desire to get the last word in, I know – i’m as guilty as anyone is of it) Jan 03 13:57
oiaohm A truly neutral party could have always gone to a Microsoft Confernece or hang around with the wrong crowd and picked up wrong ideas.  Funny enough most are that. Jan 03 13:57
oiaohm You do see extreamest on the Linux side created the same way. Jan 03 13:57
schestowitz I’ll post it as I continue editing (it’s rough… like a draft). Jan 03 13:57
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schestowitz Tell me how to imrove it (or typos) as I go through it editing: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/03/… Jan 03 13:58
mib_o21sxr extremists on “our side” is true, and it’s a problem too – because it’s like the news where they always get the most ignorant colorful local person to interview Jan 03 13:58
mib_o21sxr it’s a quick way to paint a whole community as “zealots” or insane or whatever Jan 03 13:59
mib_o21sxr floss doesn’t have the slick PR and endless propaganda monies that MS has though Jan 03 13:59
mib_o21sxr so we have to be smarter Jan 03 13:59
mib_o21sxr (again just my developing philosophy) Jan 03 13:59
oiaohm All sides have zealots.  If you look far enough you can still find c64 ones. Jan 03 14:01
mib_o21sxr ha true that … for sure if you say amiga zealots Jan 03 14:01
schestowitz mib_o21sxr: they open their mouths at confs Jan 03 14:02
schestowitz I’ve recorded some stuff from OSBC Jan 03 14:02
schestowitz The Microsoft staff is saying nasty things about us ‘thief’, but the press just quotes PR depts. Jan 03 14:02
mib_o21sxr yup no doubt Jan 03 14:03
oiaohm Floss has really had a fairly slick PR system. Jan 03 14:03
mib_o21sxr I wish I had the money to fund a “FLOSS PR” project, but we have to make do with what we can Jan 03 14:03
oiaohm Just its a bit hard to push a product into a market where its not ready. Jan 03 14:03
oiaohm Think about all the wins Floss has had in the super computer market. Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz More markets too Jan 03 14:04
oiaohm That required PR killing all the Unix’s out there. Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz IBM doesn’t care Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz It markets Z series or whatever Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz Doesn’t mater what it runs. Jan 03 14:04
oiaohm I would not say does not care. Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz The brands marketed are Novell, BIM, H-P, SGI, etc. Jan 03 14:04
mib_o21sxr I see what you are saying but I’m not sure I would call those *PR* wins Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz Linux is a  pool, not a company Jan 03 14:04
schestowitz GNU is a scary philosophy to them. Jan 03 14:05
oiaohm Numbers of hours HP IBM and others put into making sure Linux runs on the hardware well. Jan 03 14:05
oiaohm And they to advertise it to there customers.  IBM and HP both provide Linux solutions to the high end servers. Jan 03 14:05
mib_o21sxr yeah i can agree with that…i’ve seen a few good linux commercials on you tube for example Jan 03 14:06
mib_o21sxr i mean professional stuff Jan 03 14:06
oiaohm Linux is a pool catch is different sections do PR work. Jan 03 14:06
oiaohm So yes there are some really good PR systems around FLOSS.   But unlike microsoft FLOSS can have the appearance of many parties backing FLOSS that is purely above board without having to pay anything. Jan 03 14:07
mib_o21sxr roy: take out the EDGI quote in the OLPC … there’s no EDGI action in there i was referencing something else Jan 03 14:08
mib_o21sxr i mean it is pretty much a slush fund, but it’s not in play in that email Jan 03 14:09
schestowitz OK Jan 03 14:09
oiaohm Software Product be good quality for targeted market you don’t have to pay PR companies.  Hardware companies do it for you. Jan 03 14:09
oiaohm Really MS needing a Large PR department is a sign of a problem. Jan 03 14:10
mib_o21sxr well on the open source side, some PR will surely come that way Jan 03 14:10
mib_o21sxr on the straight Free Software side, we need a little help Jan 03 14:10
mib_o21sxr i mean i love rms, but he ain’t no PR guru :) Jan 03 14:10
schestowitz I commented that out Jan 03 14:10
oiaohm RMS is a walking PR nightmare. Jan 03 14:10
schestowitz I did it all very fact, si it’s a poor post. Jan 03 14:11
schestowitz I have other posts to do quickly. Jan 03 14:11
schestowitz RMS appeals not to a business crowd Jan 03 14:11
schestowitz But he can appeal to younger developers Jan 03 14:11
schestowitz Peter Brown’s appearance probably appeases the business type. Jan 03 14:11
oiaohm Business Crowd equals money to do things. Jan 03 14:11
mib_o21sxr I have his one book Free Software: Free Society and his ideas are powerful, but unfortunately he needs some help putting them out there Jan 03 14:12
oiaohm RMS has great ideas but he does not have the tacked to be the front man. Jan 03 14:12
mib_o21sxr yeah, i agree, it’s unfair, but i’m afraid that’s just reality Jan 03 14:13
oiaohm Lot of RMS ideas are not anti-business.   Just he presents them wrong. Jan 03 14:13
MinceR well, that’s what we have Bruce Perens for :> Jan 03 14:14
mib_o21sxr What about Lessig? I haven’t read any of his books, but his articles read well Jan 03 14:14
oiaohm Don’t say this is bad.   Show where its more profitable to do the right thing in a lot of cases and less profitable to do the bad thing long term and you win. Jan 03 14:14
MinceR dunno, i haven’t read a lot of Lessig yet Jan 03 14:14
MinceR and then there’s ESR, too Jan 03 14:15
mib_o21sxr esr/perens are too focused on open source … ibm/red hat/etc will handle open source PR Jan 03 14:15
mib_o21sxr i mean Free Software PR Jan 03 14:15
MinceR ic Jan 03 14:16
mib_o21sxr not knocking those guys, just drawing a distinction Jan 03 14:16
MinceR i thought Perens said open source and free sw are the same thing Jan 03 14:16
MinceR (i know there are differences due to the differences between the OSD and the FSD) Jan 03 14:16
mib_o21sxr i just read a good contrast of their positions Jan 03 14:16
mib_o21sxr let me see if i can find it again Jan 03 14:16
oiaohm Perens did.  He really don’t see the difference. Jan 03 14:17
mib_o21sxr I’m thinking of his Wikipedia article, but I see it doesn’t really contrast it as much as I thought Jan 03 14:17
oiaohm Really RMS bad PR events are basically out weight by cost savings of using open source. Jan 03 14:18
oiaohm For  lot of hardware companies. Jan 03 14:19
mib_o21sxr heh, like writing off a charitable contribution for tax purposes :) Jan 03 14:19
oiaohm Its not like support MS was above cases of stupidity. Jan 03 14:20
schestowitz mib_o21sxr: Lessig is no FLOSS guy Jan 03 14:21
schestowitz He’s a Mac user and all. Jan 03 14:21
schestowitz Would make a bad spreker for Free software Jan 03 14:21
schestowitz In fact, he DOUBTED the movement would succeed in its early days Jan 03 14:21
schestowitz He was wrong and he openly admitted this some months ago Jan 03 14:22
mib_o21sxr ah, i didn’t know that … he has some very pro-FLOSS writings Jan 03 14:22
oiaohm Remember some of the best speekers for Microsoft don’t believe what they are saying. Jan 03 14:22
schestowitz ESR with his trigger-happy gun fetish..? Oh no.. :-) Jan 03 14:22
oiaohm Instead are cool no matter how much you try to prevoke them because of it. Jan 03 14:23
MinceR that gun fetish could appeal to some Jan 03 14:23
schestowitz oiaohm: Perees is concerned about Microsoft and others (CPAL) ruining open source Jan 03 14:23
MinceR i’m for bearing arms, for example :) Jan 03 14:23
MinceR if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns Jan 03 14:23
MinceR …and the state which you can’t trust Jan 03 14:23
mib_o21sxr well, peres has himself to blame for that some degree. “open” is just as easy to subvert as “free” is Jan 03 14:23
mib_o21sxr and it’s a lot quicker to draw in people with non-idealogical motives Jan 03 14:24
oiaohm Australia is a good example guns are outlawed.   Yes we do have less gun crime. Jan 03 14:24
MinceR perhaps we do need people with non-ideological motives Jan 03 14:24
mib_o21sxr which might be good commericially, but is poor philosophically Jan 03 14:24
schestowitz Perens is close to RMS; ESR is not. Jan 03 14:24
mib_o21sxr true, but as rms says “words matter”, and perens was OK with the “free software should be called oopen souce” thing Jan 03 14:25
mib_o21sxr that was a mistake i think Jan 03 14:25
mib_o21sxr convenient and maybe even good to get things going, but still a bit of a mistake Jan 03 14:25
oiaohm There was a lot of arguments of the free software and open source ideas. Jan 03 14:26
oiaohm free implies the idea that you don’t have to give anything back. Jan 03 14:26
oiaohm Open implies secuirty holes. Jan 03 14:26
oiaohm So either way both sux. Jan 03 14:26
mib_o21sxr true there is no good single word Jan 03 14:26
oiaohm I think its one of those rare cases of either wait for exceptance of you would have to create a new word completely to descibe it. Jan 03 14:27
mib_o21sxr i agree. the split between Free/Open hurt that as well … although *maybe* the “FLOSS” acronymn is helping re-join things a bit Jan 03 14:28
oiaohm FLOSS is the create a new word solution. Jan 03 14:29
MinceR i think i’ve heard statistics where allowing gun ownership reduced crime Jan 03 14:29
schestowitz Libre would be good Jan 03 14:29
MinceR but i don’t have a link :/ Jan 03 14:29
schestowitz Of freedom software Jan 03 14:29
oiaohm Here it  MinceR gun crime has become rare. Jan 03 14:29
schestowitz Freedom != cheapness, not even in English Jan 03 14:29
MinceR oiaohm: there can be multiple reasons for that Jan 03 14:30
oiaohm Partly police policy.   Carring a gun illegaly is death. Jan 03 14:30
mib_o21sxr “Freedom” is a better *word*, but a worse *adjective* Jan 03 14:30
MinceR carrying a gun illegally can occur regardless of whether you prohibit guns Jan 03 14:31
oiaohm Knife and baseball bat crime has gone up. Jan 03 14:31
MinceR you might restrict gun ownership to people who have participated in training Jan 03 14:31
MinceR and know how to use a gun Jan 03 14:31
oiaohm Secuirty guards and the like here can still have rights to carry guns. Jan 03 14:31
oiaohm General public is also restricted on carring knives in public. Jan 03 14:32
MinceR the ability to learn how to use a gun isn’t restricted to security guards and armed forces Jan 03 14:32
oiaohm Yes you can learn to use them.   Without permits and the like you cannot keep them. Jan 03 14:33
MinceR oh, btw Jan 03 14:33
MinceR 153716 < oiaohm> Partly police policy.   Carring a gun illegaly is death. Jan 03 14:33
MinceR death for whom? Jan 03 14:33
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MinceR the carrier or the police officer? Jan 03 14:33
MinceR or random bystanders? Jan 03 14:33
mib_n4pn5z boo FF crashed Jan 03 14:33
MinceR also, what if a policeman isn’t around to check for guns? Jan 03 14:33
oiaohm Carrier Police shot first sort out latter.  And yes they are a good shot. Jan 03 14:34
MinceR what’s going to prevent your burglar or mugger to carry a gun when he attacks you? Jan 03 14:34
oiaohm Holding a knife you will get asked to put it down. Jan 03 14:34
MinceR law-abiding citizens won’t keep guns if you prohibit guns Jan 03 14:34
oiaohm Gun no request like that.  Just shot death done. Jan 03 14:34
MinceR unfortunately, criminals by definition don’t follow the law Jan 03 14:34
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oiaohm Criminals are not dumb. Jan 03 14:35
MinceR (well, be one particular definition) Jan 03 14:35
MinceR s/be/by/ Jan 03 14:35
MinceR that’s why they’ll hide the gun Jan 03 14:35
MinceR and avoid authorities Jan 03 14:35
MinceR you can’t put a police officer to guard every single citizen Jan 03 14:35
oiaohm Draw gun get seen dead. Jan 03 14:35
oiaohm Draw knife get seen get a chance to live. Jan 03 14:36
oiaohm What one would you choose. Jan 03 14:36
MinceR “Myth No. 1: Guns cause crime. A review of the academic literature shows that there is no relationship between the number of guns and the amount of crime in the United States. Criminologists Gary Kleck and E. Britt Patterson reported in 1993 their finding that gun ownership had no significant effect on the rates of murder, assault, robbery, or rape in the U.S. Between 1973 and 1992, the rate of gun ownership in the U.S. increased by 45 percent Jan 03 14:37
MinceR http://www.catb.org/~esr/gun… Jan 03 14:37
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/03/idc-… Jan 03 14:37
MinceR oiaohm: or draw a gun and shoot the policeman before he can react Jan 03 14:37
MinceR because you know it’s your only chance Jan 03 14:37
mib_n4pn5z ah one point i thought of one that IDC quote Jan 03 14:37
oiaohm Policeman here don’t travel single. Jan 03 14:38
mib_n4pn5z it implies that they could still get the report tweaked more, it would just carry a “lesser” analysts name Jan 03 14:38
MinceR you keep assuming that policemen will be present everywhere someone decides to use a gun Jan 03 14:38
MinceR well they won’t Jan 03 14:38
mib_n4pn5z that might be too much speculation, but it’s one of the things i thought of when reading it Jan 03 14:38
oiaohm Of course they not. Jan 03 14:38
MinceR also, criminals don’t necessarily travel single either Jan 03 14:38
MinceR and it’s considerably riskier to draw a gun if a large part of the bystanders are armed too Jan 03 14:39
oiaohm Criminals have been shown here not to take unrequired risk. Jan 03 14:39
MinceR so they’ll mug you where there aren’t policemen around Jan 03 14:39
oiaohm Also more armed equals need to be armed. Jan 03 14:39
MinceR and they’ll break into your house when there are no policemen visiting Jan 03 14:40
oiaohm There are basically no gun usage in crimes here at all. Jan 03 14:40
schestowitz mib_n4pn5z: fair point Jan 03 14:40
MinceR which means that prohibiting guns didn’t really stop crime, did it? Jan 03 14:40
MinceR people will just use other weapons or bare hands that need more training Jan 03 14:41
oiaohm They don’t need to defend themself against public and police play by rules when not having gun is safe. Jan 03 14:41
MinceR and those who plan to assault others have better access to such training Jan 03 14:41
MinceR not having a gun is not safe Jan 03 14:41
schestowitz MinceR: other weapons are less lethal. Jan 03 14:41
oiaohm So we have like no cases of shoot outs effecting bystandarders. Jan 03 14:41
MinceR you can still be kicked or knifed to death Jan 03 14:41
schestowitz They are also easier to escape Jan 03 14:42
MinceR schestowitz: so i’ll only be a little bit dead if they cut my throat? Jan 03 14:42
MinceR i’ll feel very relieved if that happens :> Jan 03 14:42
oiaohm Guns basically increase the numbers of people who end up hurt. Jan 03 14:42
schestowitz MinceR: depends on how a mugger approaches you. Jan 03 14:42
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oiaohm Does not really alter the crime factor. Jan 03 14:42
schestowitz Rob Weir was mugged in Geneva Jan 03 14:42
MinceR oiaohm: read my quote again. Jan 03 14:42
schestowitz He went to the corrupt OOXML BRM Jan 03 14:42
schestowitz Some guy put a knife on him, IIRC Jan 03 14:43
schestowitz Maybe I read it too quickly, I dunno Jan 03 14:43
schestowitz Mugging and crime already rise because of the Depression Jan 03 14:43
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schestowitz Hey, ushimitsudoki Jan 03 14:43
MinceR “Myth No. 2: Gun control laws reduce crime. Firearms have been regulated with increasing stringency in the United States for most of the past thirty years. Nevertheless, the number of firearms in private hands has increased continuously by many millions per year; handguns have become an increasing proportion of privately owned firearms; and rates of crime, violent crime, and homicide have shown no relationship to the passage or enforcement of g Jan 03 14:43
ushimitsudoki bah got tired of IRC through firefox Jan 03 14:43
ushimitsudoki howdy Jan 03 14:43
oiaohm Yes but they did not cover something.   Numbers of mansluters of bystanders caused by shoot outs. Jan 03 14:44
oiaohm Robberies are more likely to be not front on. Jan 03 14:44
oiaohm Since person is not carring a gun. Jan 03 14:45
oiaohm Rate might not change by the causlities do. Jan 03 14:45
oiaohm Reducing crime is not the only reason to apply Gun control.    Reducing the causlities from crime is a effect.   Taking automatic weapons off street makes killing large numbers harder. Jan 03 14:48
ushimitsudoki is gun control like the fall back topic here :) Jan 03 14:48
oiaohm Rare odd topic. Jan 03 14:49
MinceR Using homicide and suicide data from a larger sample of countries, 35, (International Journal of Epidemiology 1998:27:216), Kleck found “no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate in the largest sample of nations available to study this topic. (Associations with the total suicide rate were even weaker.)” Jan 03 14:49
MinceR http://www.guncite.com/gun_co… Jan 03 14:49
MinceR apparently not even casualties are increased. Jan 03 14:49
MinceR 155528 < oiaohm> Reducing crime is not the only reason to apply Gun control.    Reducing the causlities from crime is a effect.   Taking automatic Jan 03 14:49
MinceR                  weapons off street makes killing large numbers harder. Jan 03 14:49
MinceR no it doesn’t Jan 03 14:50
MinceR biological weapons and homemade explosives are _much_ more effective at killing large numbers Jan 03 14:50
MinceR if someone wants to kill a lot of people, he won’t look for an automatic weapon. Jan 03 14:50
MinceR also, i’d like to see how your two police officers are going to stop someone with an automatic weapon anyway Jan 03 14:51
MinceR or a group of criminals with automatic weapons Jan 03 14:51
MinceR http://www.guncite.com/gun_contro… Jan 03 14:52
oiaohm I really need to find the number here before and after gun control. Jan 03 14:53
oiaohm The effect was quite complete. Jan 03 14:53
oiaohm Police still have automatic weapons in pistels also more are trained with snipper riffles. Jan 03 14:54
oiaohm Using an automatic weapon will bring attention.   Not a good thing really. Jan 03 14:54
oiaohm Before gun control police snippers use to try to shot the gun out there hands. Jan 03 14:55
MinceR you advocated “taking automatic weapons off street” Jan 03 14:55
oiaohm Australian way. Jan 03 14:56
MinceR so before gun control guns were allowed but of someone was seen holding one, they got a shot to the hand? Jan 03 14:56
oiaohm Ie automatic weapons out of publics hands. Jan 03 14:56
MinceR interesting police force you’ve got there. Jan 03 14:56
MinceR s/of/if/ Jan 03 14:56
oiaohm They are good marksmen lots of them were pulling of jaming or destorying the weapon. Jan 03 14:57
oiaohm So aiming for a human head is a lot larger target. Jan 03 14:57
oiaohm Yes most of the time hand was not harmed. Jan 03 14:58
MinceR http://www.nrawinningteam.com/auresult.html Jan 03 14:59
oiaohm Yes that is before police policy change. Jan 03 15:01
oiaohm Police policy change to shot gunman on site had a big effect.   Also it took 3 years to clean the free guns out the system. Jan 03 15:01
trmanco http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=49 Jan 03 15:01
oiaohm Nra is targeting the pulse after gun restrictions not the long term result. Jan 03 15:03
neighborlee http://www.violencebegetsviolence.org/ Jan 03 15:03
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oiaohm No guns in public hands on street made shot gunman on site possible to do without shoting a bystander. Jan 03 15:05
MinceR 161020 < neighborlee> http://www.violencebegetsviolence.org/ Jan 03 15:06
MinceR how does non-gun violence figure into this? Jan 03 15:06
MinceR how does violence committed by the authorities figure into this? Jan 03 15:06
oiaohm Australia did have an advantage over the USA.  All guns have to be importored into this country. Jan 03 15:08
oiaohm So blocked imports it was only time before the street free guns run out. Jan 03 15:09
MinceR do you really believe they can’t prevent criminals from smuggling guns into australia? :> Jan 03 15:11
oiaohm You know the other funny thing.   Same year Australian put in gun control we had a gang land war. Jan 03 15:12
oiaohm That has started before gun control has be put in place. Jan 03 15:12
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schestowitz MinceR: true, it’s eay to pass them Jan 03 15:14
oiaohm In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300% << Yes that abonormal number whould have happened with or without gun control. Jan 03 15:14
schestowitz When I was 15 I passed an air rifle through an international flight Jan 03 15:14
schestowitz Full-sized pellet gun. Jan 03 15:14
MinceR oiaohm: even if gun control has no effect on anything, it restricts freedom and thus the net effect is negative. Jan 03 15:15
MinceR it has to have a positive effect on crime and homicide in order to be worth using Jan 03 15:15
oiaohm The positive effect has been the numbers of hurt bystanders. Jan 03 15:16
oiaohm After everything settled back down. Jan 03 15:16
oiaohm Its the range a gun provides that increases numbers of hurt bystanders. Jan 03 15:17
oiaohm Most of that was drug fueled crime that was causing high numbers of harmed bystanders. Jan 03 15:18
neighborlee http://209.85.173.132/search?q=… < a very nice one and worth reading though I just went to end to see a quick summary and it was easily worth it even from that minimalistic perspective ;) Jan 03 15:19
oiaohm Its effect is not what the Rra are looking for. Jan 03 15:19
MinceR the numbers of hurt bystanders figure into homicide rates, doesn’t it? Jan 03 15:20
oiaohm Lot of cases no. Jan 03 15:20
oiaohm Because shooter normally does not kill them. Jan 03 15:21
neighborlee and shock of shocks…we already knew about this philosophy some 2000 years ago ( love thy neighbor as yourself , etc. ) , but Im afraid not enough listened,,maybe we will over the next few thousand years if we make it that far ;) Jan 03 15:21
MinceR oiaohm: so, do you have any stats on “hurt bystanders”? Jan 03 15:21
schestowitz neighborlee: this assumes  people are not repressed Jan 03 15:21
neighborlee the mustard seed :) Jan 03 15:22
oiaohm Not in URL’s.   MinceR   The difference has been quite major.  Of course in the 3 years settling down after gun rules come in.  It took the heads of the gangs here to basically kill themselfs out. Jan 03 15:24
oiaohm After that crimes have basically been direct targetly targeted.  Like shop assistant assulted but everyone else in store exscaping unharmed. Jan 03 15:25
oiaohm Most stupid recently was a guy doing a hold up with a rock. Jan 03 15:26
oiaohm Yes 1 rock. Jan 03 15:26
neighborlee let thee that is without sin ? ;) )) < maybe he felt particuarly   sin free that day> ;) Jan 03 15:26
oiaohm Could not work out why attentend said throw it. Jan 03 15:26
oiaohm Problem is stupid human + gun equals hurt people.  Normally not well trained so normally fire weapon by mistake in some direction. Jan 03 15:27
oiaohm Its the other thing we have seen more pure stupped attempted robberies.  Ie ones that by all logic don’t ever stand a hope in hell of working. Jan 03 15:29
schestowitz Heh. We made front page of Linux Today. Jan 03 15:29
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructu… Jan 03 15:29
neighborlee well others make a good point here though..stupid human +whateva equals hurt people..though sure strap on bomb is ugly too :( SIGH…you change violence when you change people. Jan 03 15:29
oiaohm Making a bomb needs some brains. Jan 03 15:29
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oiaohm Not to blow yourself up with it before you get anywhere. Jan 03 15:29
schestowitz Hey, lehmann Jan 03 15:29
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schestowitz oiaohm scared him Jan 03 15:30
schestowitz :-) Jan 03 15:30
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trmanco hahaha Jan 03 15:30
trmanco Microsoft just lost its own game -> http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_con… Jan 03 15:30
neighborlee lol Jan 03 15:31
trmanco Will there be corruption in the US patent system? Jan 03 15:31
schestowitz trmanco: thanks, someone E-mailed me this last night Jan 03 15:31
schestowitz Different source though (Electonista or whatever it’s called) Jan 03 15:32
trmanco :) Jan 03 15:32
schestowitz I’m waiting until I have more MS patents news (I have 3) Jan 03 15:32
trmanco more here -> http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,100000… Jan 03 15:32
trmanco cool Jan 03 15:32
schestowitz zoobab should take note Jan 03 15:32
schestowitz This is funny: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/… Jan 03 15:33
schestowitz Watch the second figure Jan 03 15:33
schestowitz David Meyer changes his mug Jan 03 15:33
trmanco ridiculous ! Jan 03 15:33
oiaohm I am fairly sure Sun has the pay as you go patent from the time they though the first cloud like idea would take off. Jan 03 15:34
oiaohm If its still current MS could have some fun. Jan 03 15:35
trmanco Microsoft’s netbook restrictions detailed: http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content… Jan 03 15:36
schestowitz Amazon too Jan 03 15:36
schestowitz They can find artistic way to sneak it on past the doormen of USPTO Jan 03 15:36
schestowitz trmanco: is this new? Jan 03 15:37
schestowitz I know they revised the old ‘crippling’ mandate Jan 03 15:37
schestowitz But that was months ago Jan 03 15:37
MinceR 163124 < oiaohm> Not in URL’s.   MinceR   The difference has been quite major.  Of course in the 3 years settling down after gun rules come in.  It Jan 03 15:38
MinceR                  took the heads of the gangs here to basically kill themselfs out. Jan 03 15:38
MinceR that sounds like a very specific case Jan 03 15:38
schestowitz “With XP gone for good, vendors will have no choice but to migrate to Vista, adding extra hardware and storage to cope with the overbloated OS, thus driving prices up once again and widening the price gap between Windows and Linux based netbooks. “ Jan 03 15:38
MinceR so it hardly goes for gun control in general Jan 03 15:38
MinceR 163459 < oiaohm> Problem is stupid human + gun equals hurt people.  Normally not well trained so normally fire weapon by mistake in some direction. Jan 03 15:38
schestowitz Like I said, they caused the cost of sub-notebooks to go through the roof Jan 03 15:38
trmanco schestowitz, yes it is Jan 03 15:38
MinceR authorities are staffed by humans. criminals are humans. Jan 03 15:38
schestowitz They also pressure OEMs not to do low end (Linux) Jan 03 15:38
trmanco from yesterday I think Jan 03 15:38
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MinceR criminals who want a career in firearm use can get training. Jan 03 15:39
schestowitz Microsoft adds to Atom’s restrictions < http://www.itexaminer.com/microso… > Jan 03 15:39
MinceR normal citizens when there’s no gun prohibition can get training. Jan 03 15:39
schestowitz What a nice company. It innovates “restrictions” Jan 03 15:39
MinceR you can even enforce it just like driving licenses. Jan 03 15:39
MinceR oiaohm: also consider the case of the police policy where you just shoot people with guns in their hand in the head. Jan 03 15:40
MinceR is that morally justifiable? Jan 03 15:40
MinceR what if, in order to eliminate violence, we legislate that people are to be shot in the head upon birth? it would surely work statistically :> Jan 03 15:40
oiaohm Yes person then cannot kill or harm anyone else.   It also completely discourages using guns in crimes. Jan 03 15:41
oiaohm Nothing else has seemed to work as effectively. Jan 03 15:41
oiaohm It also reduced numbers of police harmed do to guns. Jan 03 15:42
oiaohm Ok increased the usage of knives and baseball bats and the like. Jan 03 15:42
MinceR so it didn’t do anything Jan 03 15:42
MinceR except restricted the freedom of people. Jan 03 15:42
oiaohm That is what you are missing. Jan 03 15:43
MinceR hm? Jan 03 15:43
oiaohm Crimes fighting police not happening. Jan 03 15:43
neighborlee oiaohm: so what was the net effect Jan 03 15:43
neighborlee or was a study done Jan 03 15:43
oiaohm Seams crim + firearm equals attempt to fight way out. Jan 03 15:44
MinceR please use more grammar, i don’t understand half of what you’re saying. Jan 03 15:44
oiaohm Crim without firearm more often than not common sence. Jan 03 15:44
oiaohm Don’t fight lay down arm.  If took gun would have risked being dead any how. Jan 03 15:44
MinceR no offence, but you’re starting to sound timecubish. Jan 03 15:44
oiaohm arms. Jan 03 15:44
schestowitz MinceR: doesn’t matter Jan 03 15:45
schestowitz I have my typos too Jan 03 15:45
schestowitz You get the message Jan 03 15:45
MinceR well, typos are one thing, leaving out half the words is another Jan 03 15:45
oiaohm grammer and me don’t get along too good. Jan 03 15:45
MinceR i don’t get the message Jan 03 15:45
MinceR even the parts i get i’m unsure of Jan 03 15:45
oiaohm Do grammer I get dyslexia effecting worlds. Jan 03 15:45
oiaohm words Jan 03 15:45
schestowitz MinceR: messages are conveyed by assembly of words Jan 03 15:45
schestowitz Grammer is all the same. Jan 03 15:45
oiaohm It is bad enough without it. Jan 03 15:45
schestowitz nouns with adjectives connected by verbs. Jan 03 15:45
oiaohm Less fighting police more common sence in cases where caught less harm to criminals and anyone near by. Jan 03 15:46
schestowitz I love talking to people with errors because it means they don’t try *too* hard to be formal Jan 03 15:46
oiaohm Over all crime rate not change but outcomes from the crimes changed. Jan 03 15:47
schestowitz I had friends who took 15 minutes to write a bloody E-maikls. Jan 03 15:47
schestowitz In fact, lacking sloppiness and insisting on highh standards means far less output and a lot less guilt Jan 03 15:47
schestowitz I gave up on lots of proofreading in 2004 Jan 03 15:47
oiaohm I wish I could fix my grammer.  Everytime I have attempted I end up producing completely unreadable even by me 24 hours latter. Jan 03 15:49
oiaohm Catch you guys around. Jan 03 15:51
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schestowitz Google’s CEO should stay out of Obama’s arena: http://www.npr.org/templates/stor… Jan 03 16:00
schestowitz Someone has volunteered to extract the text from the OLPC PDF. It’s reverse bribery. Putting funds in lots of places and threatening to withdraw these if the places stop paying Microsoft. What a kickbacks loophole. Jan 03 16:13
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schestowitz http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=VwwMF6biCJU Jan 03 16:39
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schestowitz bbl Jan 03 17:39
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PetoKraus oh FFS Jan 03 19:16
PetoKraus i’ve almost installed mono!!! Jan 03 19:16
MinceR lol Jan 03 19:16
PetoKraus hmm, gnome-subtitles needs mono Jan 03 19:35
PetoKraus $H&ITE Jan 03 19:35
trmanco lol Jan 03 19:42
trmanco mono is a virus Jan 03 19:42
trmanco http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono Jan 03 19:43
PetoKraus it’s annoying Jan 03 19:45
PetoKraus i just wanna sync my subs! Jan 03 19:45
schestowitz Kate does subtitles. I saw it yesterday. Jan 03 19:55
PetoKraus yeah well.. i used something else Jan 03 19:56
schestowitz I’ve been thinking. If the chaps like  the ones in the video are affected by the Progression of the Depression, then they could be recruited and unnecessarily assigned to carry out some military coo overthrowing governments that are ‘disobedient’. Jan 03 19:56
schestowitz I tried getting OCR software earlier. But it doesn’t do PDFs :-( Jan 03 19:56
PetoKraus lol the zune thing is priceless Jan 03 20:01
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Tallken hello Jan 03 20:29
schestowitz Hey. Jan 03 20:32
schestowitz Just posted: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/27/… “The disinformation thing is rampant at all levels, that is why I don’t watch TV, read newspapers or magazines.  Or pay attention to any information that is likely to be manufactured or censored.” Jan 03 20:33
schestowitz Godwin law invoked beforehand, I think. ” These cast MS as the uncool lumbering out of touch giant.  Which in in the view of of a lot of folks they are.  The next step would be to compare them to fascism that uses Hitler’s propaganda methodology, which they do.” Jan 03 20:33
Tallken I stoppped watching TV because the news are so fucking boring! Jan 03 20:34
schestowitz Panda bears and ‘honest’ politicians. Jan 03 20:35
Tallken if everyone paid for each word said on TV — politicians included — the world would be much more fun Jan 03 20:35
Tallken people who speak too much are doing a disservice to everyone Jan 03 20:35
Tallken unless it’s obviously a documentary or sth where such behaviour is rather desirable Jan 03 20:36
schestowitz I’m watching with concern what they do in video clips Jan 03 20:36
schestowitz There are some musicians that make interesting clips Jan 03 20:36
schestowitz But about 90% are about booty, sex, cars, and, dollaz and b*ches. It’s all just mugs, cleavage, posing and parties. Jan 03 20:37
schestowitz I enjoy the music on TV, but the videos are just so damn boring and stupifying. Jan 03 20:38
Tallken schestowitz, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4HNruA1FU < Fat Boy Slim – Sunset (Bird Of Prey) > Jan 03 20:39
schestowitz OMG. When I wrote that thing about video I was thinking about Fat Boy Slim Jan 03 20:42
schestowitz I actually use him as an example routinely (one who makes good videos and whose face you hardly ever see) Jan 03 20:43
Tallken ;) Jan 03 20:44
*Tallken will have dinner Jan 03 20:44
Tallken and that video has a meaning Jan 03 20:44
Tallken I believe it is mentioned in Wikipedia Jan 03 20:44
Tallken anyway, away Jan 03 20:44
schestowitz I like this Bootsy Collins one… http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMZwZiU0kKs (Weapon Of Choice – Fatboy Slim) Jan 03 20:45
twitter You do pay for every word spoken on TV.  Advertising raises the price of everything. Jan 03 20:57
twitter Roy, export your PDF to the image format your OCR does. Jan 03 20:58
schestowitz I thought about it (screenshots) Jan 03 21:02
schestowitz But the software that was on the Mandriva repos seems to be command-line driven, so couldn’t be arsed. Jan 03 21:03
schestowitz Anyone, someone extracted the text from all pages by hand. Jan 03 21:03
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/03/f… Jan 03 21:03
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twitter wow Jan 03 21:11
twitter “If the chaps like  the ones in the video are affected by the Progression of the Depression, then they could be recruited and unnecessarily assigned to carry out some military coo overthrowing governments that are ‘disobedient’.”  Oh yeah. Jan 03 21:13
twitter The more powerful the autocrats become, the more likely you are to end up in some kind of miserable “war economy” Jan 03 21:14
schestowitz People snitch on them. Jan 03 21:14
twitter Rationed and working for the war machine, jailed or on the front lines. Jan 03 21:15
schestowitz It was easier to keep them quiet when there was no Internet Jan 03 21:15
twitter That’s why the US has declared war on the entire world.  That’s what the “War on Terror” is according to my relatives.  They think it is AOK for US agents to murder, jail and torture people without trial. Jan 03 21:17
twitter They are out of control, and thankfully are a minority opinion. Jan 03 21:17
schestowitz Putin said so Jan 03 21:19
schestowitz “totally out of control” Jan 03 21:20
twitter That guy controls his press by murder too. Jan 03 21:20
schestowitz We are very gullible creature. Television can install straws in our skulls. Jan 03 21:21
schestowitz Instill disinfo Jan 03 21:21
twitter That’s why I avoid TV. Jan 03 21:21
twitter I see what has done to people I know. Jan 03 21:22
schestowitz Rather sued Bush? Jan 03 21:22
twitter Yes. Jan 03 21:22
schestowitz They try to sack him Jan 03 21:22
twitter They sacked him, that’s why he sued. Jan 03 21:22
schestowitz Good luck suing the cronies.. Goodfellas Jan 03 21:27
schestowitz What’s with “torture”? They call it something else now… can’t recall what Jan 03 21:27
schestowitz “processing”…? Jan 03 21:27
twitter Discomfort positions.  Extraordinary Rendition.  There are lots of names for it. Jan 03 21:27
schestowitz What’s that word they use now to embellish (other than waterboarding and all)? Jan 03 21:28
schestowitz Oh yeah.. rendition. *LOL* Jan 03 21:28
twitter If you allow people to abuse prisoners, prisoners will die. Jan 03 21:28
schestowitz It’s not funny, but what’s funny is how they hide their deeds Jan 03 21:28
schestowitz Maybe that’s sound torture :-) Bad renditions of songs. Jan 03 21:28
twitter The US and allies executed people for similar deeds. Jan 03 21:29
schestowitz Yes, which is why they are hypocrites Jan 03 21:29
schestowitz Judging by rules and precedence, some would tell you that the indictment against Bush and Cheney are sere enough to… you know.. Jan 03 21:29
schestowitz *severe Jan 03 21:30
schestowitz John C. Dvorak idiocy… http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/top… … since WHEN is Linux just some desktop platform? The press should be reprimanded for misleading people, telling them that computer=desktop Jan 03 21:31
Tallken cya laterz Jan 03 21:49
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trmanco see comments: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com… Jan 03 21:53
schestowitz Tough crowd :-o ! Jan 03 21:57
trmanco too bad Jan 03 22:02
twitter updated Vista 7 failure log to note the 2007 start of hype http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/215957 Jan 03 22:22
twitter updated the Vista 7 Hype Log to include more authors and promises.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/216759 Jan 03 22:22
schestowitz See latest blog post Jan 03 22:23
schestowitz More on Vista 7, AKA Windows 6.1 Jan 03 22:23
twitter Yes, that’s what got me started.  :) Jan 03 22:24
twitter now back to it. Jan 03 22:24
schestowitz You’re mocking Vista7 a year before it comes out of the womb. Jan 03 22:33
schestowitz Making it DoA  perhaps Jan 03 22:33
MinceR it’s going to DoA anyway Jan 03 22:36
MinceR s/to/to be/ Jan 03 22:36
schestowitz Not necesarily Jan 03 22:36
schestowitz They spend a lot of money of propagadvertising. Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz *on Jan 03 22:37
MinceR they did the same with vista, didn’t they? Jan 03 22:37
MinceR fat lot of good it did them. Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz Yes, and it worked Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz People were fooled when it was new. Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz Vista was not mocked until MUCH later Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz I fought it with words for YEARS Jan 03 22:37
schestowitz (in COLA mostly) Jan 03 22:38
MinceR the only way they’re fooling some people into thinking that it even sells at all is by selling xp licenses in a way that allows them to count those as vista purchases Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz That too. Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz People found out Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz They count that as double saled, IIRC Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz *sales Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz it’s about perception… sheep culture. Jan 03 22:38
schestowitz “200 million ‘people’ already use Vista, so why don/t /you/?” Jan 03 22:39
Axz Because i don’t like searching for right drivers Jan 03 22:39
Axz :p Jan 03 22:39
twitter Vista7 is Vista.  The Windows 7 fail logs are a continuation of the Vista Failure Log.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter… Jan 03 22:39
twitter I don’t think they have 200 million users yet. Jan 03 22:40
twitter A large proportion of Vista users don’t last more than six months before replacing it. Jan 03 22:41
twitter Over Christmas, I got to see Vista fail on a Dell.  It was sad.  Weeks of M$ “support” by email followed by removal of SP1 and a brick. Jan 03 22:42
twitter Not a merry Christmas for the victim. Jan 03 22:42
twitter On boot it tries to clean itself up, errors and freezes with a single line of white text on a black screen.  !! hex number !! followed by worthless blinking text. Jan 03 22:43
twitter It will be interesting to see what happens next. Jan 03 22:44
twitter bbl Jan 03 22:44
MinceR has someone blogged about that? Jan 03 22:45
schestowitz Not that I’ve seen anything recently. Jan 03 22:53
schestowitz Starting a war of aggression is “the supreme international crime” that “contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.” Bush must be brought to the Hague and prosecuted. < http://www.stallman.org/archives/2008-nov-fe… > Jan 03 23:02
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Axz hi NeonFloss :) Jan 03 23:19
NeonFloss sorry schestowitz Jan 03 23:19
NeonFloss about that the other day Jan 03 23:19
NeonFloss :P Jan 03 23:20
schestowitz Hey, that’s coo. Jan 03 23:20
schestowitz cool. Jan 03 23:20
NeonFloss nope Jan 03 23:20
Axz <schestowitz> “200 million ‘people’ already use Vista, so why don/t /you/?” < where you got that info from buddy? Jan 03 23:20
NeonFloss I made an ass of myseld on a publicly logged channel Jan 03 23:20
Axz because its funny Jan 03 23:20
schestowitz Axz: it’s what Microsoft says Jan 03 23:21
schestowitz It’s a lie Jan 03 23:21
Axz i know thatś whats making it funny :p Jan 03 23:21
schestowitz They can count a new PC as two Vista sales if it runs XP or Linux Jan 03 23:21
schestowitz There’s a misconception. Some people think that if Windows “is for stupid people”, then it must be easy, as opposed to it just appealing to those who are blinded to better options (and are therefore “stupid”) Jan 03 23:21
Axz Yeah, in Ntherlands there are 40% PC stores selling Ubuntu as build-on system Jan 03 23:22
Axz Netherlands* Jan 03 23:22
NeonFloss really? Jan 03 23:22
Axz Yeah i think even PC retailers are tires of Vista being one big issue day after day and complains are getting more higher Jan 03 23:23
schestowitz Well, Holland is ahead. The govt moves to FOSS even.. Jan 03 23:25
schestowitz The US and UK as WELL behind, so you don’t find much pro-Linux news in the English-speaking press Jan 03 23:25
schestowitz South Africa does not have strong presence in the press, but it’s pro-FOSS and against software colonialism that the British and American govts fight /for/ Jan 03 23:26
NeonFloss well give govermant and school institutions switch to FOSS then the main population will too Jan 03 23:27
NeonFloss because kids learn to use FOSS Jan 03 23:27
NeonFloss and then they stick with it Jan 03 23:27
NeonFloss we need people to lobby schools to switch Jan 03 23:28
schestowitz Yes, Windows and Office become ‘too different; Jan 03 23:28
NeonFloss heh Jan 03 23:29
schestowitz But governments are corrupted by Microsoft and the Gates Foundation Jan 03 23:29
schestowitz They pass them money Jan 03 23:29
NeonFloss sure Jan 03 23:29
schestowitz So that they stick with Microsoft for kids Jan 03 23:29
schestowitz It’s only recently that I found proof that Gates passed billions to /governments’ Jan 03 23:29
schestowitz Now they have Jeff Raikes in there too. It’s like a Microsoft bank account with “charity” sign on its door Jan 03 23:29
NeonFloss im still waiting for a completely compatible eqivelen of M$ office for linux Jan 03 23:29
Axz NeonFloss, OpenOffice.Org 3.0 Jan 03 23:30
schestowitz Microsoft works hard to ensure you don’t have that./ Jan 03 23:30
NeonFloss yes Jan 03 23:30
schestowitz Compt, I mean Jan 03 23:30
NeonFloss Axz: is close Jan 03 23:30
schestowitz OOXML, moving formats, patents, etc Jan 03 23:30
NeonFloss but not perfect Jan 03 23:30
schestowitz Lock-in is its business model, not features or quality Jan 03 23:30
NeonFloss openoffice gives my different formatting sometimes Jan 03 23:31
Axz With few tweaks that could be fixed , but will speak to you with it in other channel… Jan 03 23:32
NeonFloss is wine better now that its out of beta? Jan 03 23:32
Axz anyhow Whats yours idea on OpenSuse using Novell as well schestowitz ? Jan 03 23:32
NeonFloss Axz: I manage well with openoffice but Im talking about the average user Jan 03 23:33
Axz NeonFloss, No beta is also good but wine beta is also made for futher development Jan 03 23:33
Axz further* Jan 03 23:33
NeonFloss oh Jan 03 23:33
schestowitz Wine and beta? Jan 03 23:34
NeonFloss I need a new nick for this server Jan 03 23:34
NeonFloss any ideas? Jan 03 23:34
Axz i ;m using beta myself because i’m Mantianer for wine working on M$ libs Jan 03 23:34
schestowitz OpenSUSE is less of an issue, but better leave Novell stuff untouched. Jan 03 23:34
Axz yeah^ but you think would novell bring better future into open source applications? Jan 03 23:35
schestowitz No, for Novell. Jan 03 23:35
schestowitz Novell works for SUSE and Novell. Jan 03 23:35
Axz Was just wondering because once i remember old times SUSE worked on 8 cd boxes, and what they established now Jan 03 23:36
*NeonFloss is now known as Neon|lost Jan 03 23:37
Axz Because on my previous blog there is also part about Microsoft challenging Redhat with Windows server 2008 Jan 03 23:38
schestowitz Axz: I had a 5 CD set Jan 03 23:38
schestowitz 8. Jan 03 23:38
Axz yeah me too, it was time of bashing and anarchy :P Jan 03 23:38
schestowitz “Do you pine for the nice days of Minix-1.1, when men were men and wrote their own device drivers?” Linus Torvalds Jan 03 23:43
schestowitz Is xfce getting chubby? http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/f… Jan 03 23:47
schestowitz Feedback on XO Laptops in Brazilian Schools < http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/brazil/… > Jan 03 23:49
schestowitz Yuck… Intel to Linux is like cancer to a health clinic… http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/arch… Jan 03 23:52
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