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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 30th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 10:43 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?l… Jan 30 19:14
wasabi I agree with the first part of that first sentence. Jan 30 19:15
wasabi Crawl back into your hole. If you want Jan 30 19:15
wasabi to know why Linux is less prevalent on Jan 30 19:15
wasabi netbooks now that it was when netbooks Jan 30 19:15
wasabi emerged, look no further than Jan 30 19:15
wasabi boycottnovell.com Jan 30 19:15
schestowitz They get trolls in LT Jan 30 19:15
schestowitz That troll from LT also trolled BN Jan 30 19:15
schestowitz Some guy @hotmail.com Jan 30 19:16
wasabi I’m disagreeing with that post. Jan 30 19:16
schestowitz When Hackers Are Funny < http://blog.datamation.com/blog/20… > Jan 30 19:42
schestowitz Dell for Linux phones?? http://www.pcworld.com/article/158624/dell_to_ma… Jan 30 19:44
*PetoKraus (n=pk@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell Jan 30 19:49
schestowitz I always feel as though I type it all too fast (on the go), which compromises quality. Then again, there is so much stuff to cover, so, you know… might as well get on with the content and worry less about the details. Jan 30 20:05
schestowitz This one took a long time to do, but I eventually got all the details right: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/micr… Jan 30 20:06
schestowitz Can anyone proofread with me? Please? Jan 30 20:06
twitter Here’s a funny one.  M$ sues former employee for “spying”.  http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/39… Jan 30 20:06
twitter So much for M$’s “document security” Jan 30 20:07
twitter DRM Failure. Jan 30 20:07
schestowitz twitter: can you read the above Jan 30 20:11
schestowitz It’s worse than spying. Read it and be wowed Jan 30 20:11
twitter Am reading now.  wow indeed. Jan 30 20:12
twitter I sent you the last link because people were talking up DRM as a way to keep corporate secrets.  It should be apparent from this suit that M$’s DRM failed to protect them.  The older case is classic and probably how M$ shut down the big GNU/Linux thrust at the end of the 90s. Jan 30 20:14
schestowitz twitter: I have more on DRM too Jan 30 20:19
schestowitz I could use your help Jan 30 20:19
schestowitz Could you extract the relevant text from these 3? http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index… Jan 30 20:20
schestowitz The Gutmann paper is less relevant to this (mostly Vista), but the rest need to be exposed. Jan 30 20:21
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schestowitz Swiss police spy marijuana field with Google Earth < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/sw… > Jan 30 20:33
twitter I’ll have a look at it. Jan 30 20:35
PetoKraus nice article Jan 30 20:36
PetoKraus it does not surprise me Jan 30 20:36
schestowitz Hehe. Check out Gates’ fright of Linux drivers here: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… Jan 30 20:37
PetoKraus but it’s good to have the data Jan 30 20:37
schestowitz Yes, data is needed for legal action for example Jan 30 20:37
schestowitz I’m having a cursory look at more Intel exhibits that need doing… Jan 30 20:37
schestowitz I never saw comments we got in Reddit… hmmmmmmmmm..   http://www.reddit.com/search?q=boycottnovell Jan 30 20:42
schestowitz The “kretik ” stalker is there too (reddit) — same guy that harasses me in Digg and mods down all my comment, along with libel. Maybe an MS shill… Jan 30 20:46
schestowitz Microsoft on Intel… they have no shame.. More on the way… :-) Jan 30 21:09
schestowitz wasabi: is this you? http://digg.com/users/wasabii Jan 30 21:10
schestowitz So all your pro-patents and pro-Windows remarks make sense now. You’re here to troll. http://www.facebook.com/people/Jero… Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz Oh, I see… Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz http://lists.o-hand.com/gupnp… “I’d just like to let anybody who cares know about the Mono bindings I have been working on. You can find them published in bzr at [1]. “ Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz wasabi: so you’re one of the Mono developers. Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz Yes, lots of Mono stuff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~wasabi Jan 30 21:14
wasabi Do you consider alternate views trolling by default? Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz And you’re slinging at us at Digg Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz So why are you here? Jan 30 21:15
wasabi To watch. Because I find it curious. Jan 30 21:15
schestowitz OK Jan 30 21:15
schestowitz At least we now know your motives Jan 30 21:15
wasabi Do you? I suspect you really have no idea. Jan 30 21:15
twitter that would make you a liar Jan 30 21:15
schestowitz So you love Mono and……. you promote Windows here Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz And you also strongly defend software patents, saying that they are good to you. Jan 30 21:16
wasabi I don’t promote or demote anything. Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz Is this the norm among Mono devs? Jan 30 21:16
wasabi You may have noticed that. I just state opinions. Jan 30 21:16
wasabi I’m not anti-linux, I’m not anti-MS, I’m not really anti-anything. Jan 30 21:16
wasabi I’m pro-everything. Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz But you like software patents Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz Fair enough Jan 30 21:16
wasabi I don’t mind them. Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz But we now know this Jan 30 21:16
wasabi I cannot write off software patents while not seeing a good alternative to them. Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz Are you pro-free thought? Jan 30 21:17
wasabi Because I don’t view the world as black/white. Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz What do other Mono devs think? Jan 30 21:17
wasabi I view it as a bunch of silly humans negotiating for position, compromising, trying to get stuff done. Jan 30 21:17
wasabi Which ones? Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz Would you pay Microsoft for .NET patents? Jan 30 21:17
wasabi I’m not a ‘Mono dev’. Jan 30 21:17
wasabi I’ve produced barely coherent bindings for gupnp, that don’t work. Jan 30 21:17
twitter You won’t even tell us why you are here.  Why should we believe anything you have to say? Jan 30 21:17
wasabi That’s about the extent of it. Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz You spend a lot of time controbting to it Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz Why? Jan 30 21:17
wasabi Do I? Jan 30 21:17
wasabi How much time? Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz Are you helping Linux be patent encumbered Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz So that the sw patents you love become part of ti? Jan 30 21:18
wasabi Which patents? Jan 30 21:18
wasabi See, interseting. Jan 30 21:18
wasabi You now claim i ‘love’ them. Jan 30 21:18
wasabi That’s an irrational position, as I never stated or inferred that I did. Jan 30 21:18
MinceR there’s a good alternative to sw patents: no sw patents. Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz He’s not pro-no sw patents Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz He’s pro Microsoft things Jan 30 21:18
wasabi I’m pro-everything. Jan 30 21:18
MinceR i know Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz Check log history Jan 30 21:18
wasabi Here I am. Speaking to you from a Linux box. Jan 30 21:19
twitter there are better things to do Jan 30 21:19
wasabi You’ll notice my hostname. Jan 30 21:19
schestowitz wasabi: no such thing as pro-everything Jan 30 21:19
schestowitz That would imply pro-terrorism and child abuse too Jan 30 21:19
*kentma has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jan 30 21:19
wasabi Heh. How about we keep on topic? Jan 30 21:19
schestowitz This is the topic Jan 30 21:19
wasabi I’m an ubuntu developer. A mono developer. And I develop Linux applications in C, and Windows applications. I promote open source where it fits, and whatever else wherever else it fits. Jan 30 21:19
PetoKraus ubuntu Jan 30 21:19
wasabi brb Jan 30 21:20
PetoKraus no worries mate Jan 30 21:20
twitter take your time Jan 30 21:20
PetoKraus you know, shane made quite correct assumption Jan 30 21:20
PetoKraus about “internet credibility” Jan 30 21:21
PetoKraus there’s no such thing, especially when anyone can use any smurf account Jan 30 21:21
MinceR “open source where it fits, and whatever else wherever else it fits” would match just about anything Jan 30 21:21
schestowitz I know.. Jan 30 21:21
MinceR the question is what you think fits where Jan 30 21:21
schestowitz Ox picture comes to mind. Jan 30 21:21
PetoKraus that was only ad “I am an analytical chemist. And casual python programmer. I promote free software where it fits, and repair windows machines as my job.” Jan 30 21:22
schestowitz Microsoft like open source where it fits.. an unimplemented TCP/IP stack :-) Jan 30 21:22
MinceR :) Jan 30 21:22
schestowitz “it Fits!” Jan 30 21:22
MinceR as long as they don’t have to give anything back Jan 30 21:22
PetoKraus actually today Jan 30 21:22
MinceR and they’ll still call it an “intellectual property destroyer” while raking in the profits Jan 30 21:23
schestowitz :-) Jan 30 21:23
schestowitz Sounds like Apple Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus i was thinking – i paid £25 for “silver service” of my bike Jan 30 21:23
MinceR apple and microsoft Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus i guess it took the guy approx 2 hours to fix it Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus now, system restore in our shop is £40… it takes me at about two hours Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus i’m wondering whether it’s fair Jan 30 21:23
*kapipi has quit (Remote closed the connection) Jan 30 21:25
schestowitz To whom? Jan 30 21:25
schestowitz Microsoft is happy Jan 30 21:25
*kapipi (n=tor@ has joined #boycottnovell Jan 30 21:25
schestowitz The customer — not so much,. Jan 30 21:25
schestowitz The repairer… well, no satisfaction there, is there…? I mean, fixing stuff that breaks isn’t as fun as doing creative things. Jan 30 21:26
wasabi My only ideological position is ‘getting things done’. Jan 30 21:27
wasabi Linux runs on my router, because it rocks there. It runs on my desktop, because I like it. I do development in C# because it saves me time. I run IIS for web servers, because it has features that save me time. I run Windows on user’s desktops, because it saves me time. I think WiMo is ‘decent’ because it saves me time. I think Android is awesome because I personally don’t need the features WiMo has, but I’m not going to pretend my requirement Jan 30 21:29
wasabi s are the same as everybody’s. Jan 30 21:29
wasabi (Android is awesome, btw) Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz Why did you write it ‘off-line’? Jan 30 21:29
wasabi I didn’t. I went to work. Jan 30 21:29
wasabi I just got back and typed that. Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz “Don’t get me wrong, I like Android, but…” Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz Where have I heard this before..? Jan 30 21:29
wasabi I’m not anti-patent because I cannot really imagine how I’d pay developers without making money, and I can’t imagine making money without patents. Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz The issue I have is not with the opinions Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz I’m not against you. Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz But to see that you’re sort of abusing this site and vilifying it is clear. Jan 30 21:30
wasabi I’m not pro-patent because I think lots about patent law sucks. Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz Which means you’re here to cause trouble. Jan 30 21:30
wasabi Hmm? Jan 30 21:30
wasabi Man I have no idea where you get that. Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz benJIman used to do the same thing. Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz He’s an Opesuse lad… and he’s here because “he’s curious” or whatever. Jan 30 21:31
wasabi It is curious. Jan 30 21:31
MinceR most money is actually made without patents in the sw industry Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz More like intelligence… informing OpenSUSE people if something here goes ‘amiss’ Jan 30 21:31
benJIman Obviously everyone who disagrees with schestowitz is a troll. Jan 30 21:31
MinceR it’s made by selling licenses and support. Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz benJIman: that’s not the point I made Jan 30 21:32
wasabi MinceR: And those licenses are only required because people are not able to go and duplicate work. Jan 30 21:32
schestowitz benJIman: see the log Jan 30 21:32
wasabi MinceR: If they could just duplicate work, nobody would license. Jan 30 21:32
twitter no benji but you and wasabi are trolls Jan 30 21:32
MinceR wasabi: patents aren’t the main reason for that Jan 30 21:32
wasabi sigh. Jan 30 21:32
MinceR wasabi: code takes actual work to implement Jan 30 21:32
schestowitz It’s when people come to IRC to disrupt, that’s when it aligns with the definition of Internet trolling. Jan 30 21:32
MinceR wasabi: and the copying of code is copyright, not patents Jan 30 21:32
wasabi MinceR: But the work is the cheap part. Jan 30 21:32
wasabi MinceR: The idea is what is expensive. Jan 30 21:32
MinceR except no, it isn’t Jan 30 21:32
wasabi Sure it is. Look at FOSS. Jan 30 21:33
wasabi There is tons of code. All done by volunteers. Jan 30 21:33
wasabi If it’s not ‘cheap’, that would not be the case. Jan 30 21:33
schestowitz Just because you use Linux doesn’t mean we’re some kind of hippies rejoicing in Woodstock Jan 30 21:33
MinceR the way it is now is that sw patents are for ideas, not implementation Jan 30 21:33
twitter so wasabi, how do free software people make money without patents? Jan 30 21:33
MinceR so they don’t cover most of the work Jan 30 21:33
wasabi twitter: They barely do. Jan 30 21:33
twitter It’s a multi billion dollar industry. Jan 30 21:33
MinceR wasabi: yes, i’m sure about 20 years of development on a project by lots of individuals and companies counts as “cheap” in your world Jan 30 21:33
wasabi twitter: You have a hand ful of free software companies who are profitable, and none are profitable enough to drive any single product to absolute completion. Jan 30 21:33
MinceR i wouldn’t call that “cheap” Jan 30 21:34
twitter complete, like IIS and Winblows? Jan 30 21:34
wasabi twitter: The ones who are massively profitable are profitable on the backs of their existing businesses, such as hardware or exclusive support contracts. Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz Apache is built by companies Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz They are paid for it Jan 30 21:34
PetoKraus wasabi: yes, you might want to just get things done, and if you think Windows suits you, whatever Jan 30 21:34
MinceR well, IIS is complete — a complete failure. :> Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz Only a fraction of the developers are not from companies Jan 30 21:34
wasabi Works fine for me. Jan 30 21:34
PetoKraus wasabi: i am not here to persuade you, you know Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz The Linux project is similar Jan 30 21:34
wasabi Never said otherwise. Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz They pool their resources for self gain.. yes, companies Jan 30 21:34
twitter how do doctors, lawyers and engineers make money without patents? Jan 30 21:34
wasabi Um. Because they provide a service that takes years to learn. :) Jan 30 21:35
MinceR wasabi: also, how many individual submissions by volunteers would have to accumulate for you to not consider their sum “cheap”? Jan 30 21:35
PetoKraus wasabi: though part of my work is to offer help to people (not saying offer help to you). And there I much rather offer help which is related to FLOSS than proprietary products Jan 30 21:35
twitter and programmers don’t? Jan 30 21:35
wasabi You cannot just copy somebodies surgical technique. You have to practice. Jan 30 21:35
wasabi twitter: It’s a different problem space. Jan 30 21:35
MinceR wow, just like software design Jan 30 21:35
schestowitz True Jan 30 21:35
schestowitz Cause you can duplicate code Jan 30 21:35
MinceR and even development to some extent Jan 30 21:35
schestowitz Should we restrict what’s possible? Jan 30 21:35
MinceR i mean coding. Jan 30 21:36
wasabi MinceR: software design is an abstract.  The ability to ‘design software’ is not equivilent like ‘the ability to cut open somebody an operate’ Jan 30 21:36
schestowitz Maybe we should ride horses and wagons again Jan 30 21:36
twitter you can duplicate chunks of law books too, but that won’t solve problems. Jan 30 21:36
schestowitz It makes jobs for the horse… and rickshaw people. Jan 30 21:36
wasabi You have to read the law books. That’s where the worth is. Jan 30 21:36
MinceR wasabi: so what? it’s still a difficult task with varying degrees of success Jan 30 21:36
twitter there’s no difference between coding and other professions, except for M$’s monopoly market distortion. Jan 30 21:36
trmanco big discussion going on here Jan 30 21:36
wasabi I can’t answer everybody at once, either. Jan 30 21:36
PetoKraus twitter: i’d concur Jan 30 21:37
twitter you can’t answer any of this because you are trolling.  spewing BS to waste time. Jan 30 21:37
wasabi MinceR: The industries that you mentioned do have sub-industries that ARE analogous to programming. Such as medicine. Jan 30 21:37
wasabi And they DO have patents. Jan 30 21:37
PetoKraus there’s difference between jobs which create, and jobs which administer Jan 30 21:37
MinceR the way it is now, sw patents apply to vague ideas — and everyone has lots of crazy ideas, that’s not where most of the value comes from. Jan 30 21:37
wasabi The value comes in teh refinement of the idea. I’m going to use the office Ribbon as an example, though I think it is a highly charged example, that’ll probably get most of you mad at the wrong thing. Jan 30 21:38
wasabi it would take me 4 days to rewrite the ribbon. Jan 30 21:38
wasabi Because it’s dirt simple. Jan 30 21:38
twitter the “ribbon” only makes people who use it angry. Jan 30 21:38
MinceR lol ribbon Jan 30 21:38
wasabi But it took MSR some 15 years of sitting around and failing over and over again with Office versions until they hit on that idea. Jan 30 21:39
wasabi The ribbon makes technological professionals unhappy. Jan 30 21:39
MinceR the ribbon is a usability failure Jan 30 21:39
wasabi Normal users find it useful. Jan 30 21:39
wasabi Technological professionals are a minority. Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz Ribbon is Corel ripoff Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz That’s not an ‘idea’ Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz All ideas are inspired by inputi Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz Input is another person’s output Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz Or nature’s output Jan 30 21:39
wasabi Never said otherwise. Jan 30 21:39
MinceR professionals make up most of the requirements and most of the profit Jan 30 21:39
wasabi Oh, I disagree completely. I buy MS licenses in the hundreds. I buy them for office workers. Secretaries. Marketing people. Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz wasabi: Microsoft is pressured to harp R&D this and that Jan 30 21:40
wasabi People who don’t even know what RAM is. Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz They are given speech talking points about this nonsense Jan 30 21:40
wasabi Most of these people really like the ribbon. Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz Ribbon is about perceived value Jan 30 21:40
MinceR wasabi: compare them to the cost of more specialized, more “professional” software. Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz It’s rubbish Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz It takes a 12 year old to think of it Jan 30 21:40
wasabi Then why did MS do it first? Jan 30 21:41
wasabi And not a 12 yo? Jan 30 21:41
MinceR because only they use people on that mental level to design ui-s Jan 30 21:41
wasabi it *is* a simple idea. It *is*. I’m not claiming otherwise. Jan 30 21:41
schestowitz Vista… WOW!…”we invested $6bn” (in this rubbish) Jan 30 21:41
wasabi But simple ideas take time to come up with. Jan 30 21:41
MinceR others use skilled professionals instead Jan 30 21:41
tessier http://www.technewsworld.com/story/65… Jan 30 21:41
wasabi Time is something you pay people for. Jan 30 21:41
schestowitz Spending $6 in making something worse? Oh wait… cause they binned Longhorn Jan 30 21:41
tessier Boycott Novell gets a mention Jan 30 21:41
MinceR or others came up with the ribbon and quickly realized how retarded it is Jan 30 21:41
tessier The site seems to be becoming influential Jan 30 21:41
MinceR and didn’t develop it further Jan 30 21:41
wasabi It might be the most simple idea in the world, but if I have to pay 30 engineers to sit around and drink Coke for 4 years until they think of it. Jan 30 21:41
wasabi Then I have to pay them. Jan 30 21:42
MinceR they have marketers, not engineers Jan 30 21:42
wasabi Pssh. Jan 30 21:42
schestowitz tessier: I saw this article before and didn’t notice us mentioned Jan 30 21:42
wasabi Marketers are human engineers. :0 Jan 30 21:42
wasabi Good ones anyways. Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz Marketing is not a profession Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz It’s deception Jan 30 21:43
wasabi sigh. Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz Much like other redundant occupations Jan 30 21:43
MinceR wasabi: you really have no respect for engineering, do you? Jan 30 21:43
wasabi Are you that angry with the way the world, and the human race, work? Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz Including idiots who ‘speculate’ currencies and push papers around Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz Marketing is about subversion of market forces Jan 30 21:44
wasabi MinceR: I have tons of respect. I am an engineer. Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz It’s about trying to sell things to people who do not need them Jan 30 21:44
wasabi MinceR: But I recognize no normal people will ever know about what I design until I get them to notice. Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz It’s not the natural buyers that marketing targets Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz it’s the indifferent people who need to be brainwash Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz The same goes for selling a way Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz *a war Jan 30 21:44
wasabi Sounds like living in a bubble to me. Jan 30 21:44
wasabi Most of the people I know are not engineers. Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz That’s marketing too. The foreign affairs are handles by the PR industry Jan 30 21:44
wasabi They do not respond to arguments about technical superiority. Jan 30 21:45
wasabi because the mostly don’t care. Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz So they are zombies Jan 30 21:45
MinceR if you take a look at the world, you’ll see that there’s plenty to be angry about regarding how the human race works Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz They respond to arbitrary messages Jan 30 21:45
wasabi So, is that were you stop? Jan 30 21:45
wasabi “They are zombies.” Jan 30 21:45
wasabi You see, I said very early up front, I like to solve problems. Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz A curious person assesses things Jan 30 21:45
wasabi What are you proposing to do about these zombies? Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz A passive person listens to markleters. Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz Such a person is /told/ what to think Jan 30 21:46
wasabi Me, i don’t find that they are zombies. They are human beings. I want to know how to work with them. Jan 30 21:46
wasabi How to do things that benefit them. Jan 30 21:46
wasabi Because I cannot cahnge them. Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz It’s only choice and independence is changing channels or friend Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz *ds Jan 30 21:46
wasabi It’s presumptious of me to think that I am better than everybody. So I don’t. Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz You aren’t Jan 30 21:46
wasabi They are just different. Different personality types. Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz Neither am I Jan 30 21:46
wasabi You just labeled them zombies. Jan 30 21:46
wasabi That sounds like you are. Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz But the aspiration is to improve things for everyone Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz And you’re here trying to persuade me otherwise Jan 30 21:47
wasabi You are going to improve things by making everybody an engineer? Jan 30 21:47
wasabi Sounds unreasonable. Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz You came to this channel hoping to change the agenda. Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz I don’t intrude Windows sites Jan 30 21:47
wasabi This is a single opinion channel/ Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz I don’t like Britney Spears, but I don’t go to her fan sites to aggravate Jan 30 21:47
wasabi If so, I’ll just leave. But that seems like a bubble to me. Jan 30 21:47
wasabi And not useful. Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz Not quite Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz But I see you trying to damage us Jan 30 21:48
wasabi Sitting around with people who already agree with you, reinforcing your own opinions? I don’t do that. I go out and engage. Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz I saw it in Digg too Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz Why? Jan 30 21:48
wasabi Um. Because the goal is to challenge my own opinions. Jan 30 21:48
wasabi And challenge theirs. And challenge them to challenge me. No self-improvement can be made otherwise. Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz You can present the views in a platform that’s receptive in the sense that it is there to listen Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz Which is fine Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz But you try to hurt this platform Jan 30 21:49
wasabi I don’t find that helpful. All the successful campaigns of ideas in the history of the human race are forced on people who disagree. Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz That’s like me walking into a mosque and telling people “hey, don’t go in there… it’s horrible inside” Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz A better way is this: Jan 30 21:49
wasabi Segregation is only gone because people stood up for their rights, and protested in front of people who did not care. Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz Make a platform where you can present your stance and hope to have people subscribe their attention Jan 30 21:50
schestowitz I, for one, read some Microsoft blogs Jan 30 21:50
wasabi I don’t. Jan 30 21:50
wasabi Heh. Jan 30 21:50
schestowitz I don’t participate but I listen and learn from them Jan 30 21:50
schestowitz If I want to criticise them, I do it in my platform Jan 30 21:50
wasabi I don’t read any MS literature of any sort. Jan 30 21:50
wasabi I’m not that receptive to advertising. Jan 30 21:51
wasabi Actually I mostly don’t have time. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Apropos: Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz ” COLA is not a physical location, so they have had to adapt their methods Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz so that they can do an on-line version of what was described in the prior Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz paragraph. A key method used by anti-Linux propagandist to attack Linux, Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz its users, sysadmins, developers, advocates and those who have come to Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz COLA to lean about Linux. is a form of propaganda known as disinformation. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz One of their favorite version of disinformation is known as FUD. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz 7.3 A Common FUD of the Anti-Linux Propagandists Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz An example of dishonesty of the anti-Linux propagandists is their common Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz claim that the Linux proponents in COLA oppose the use of any other Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz operating system. They also would have you believe that the Linux Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz proponents in COLA oppose everyone who does not use Linux all the time. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Those are some of the lies that they use to try to discredit Linux users Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz who post in COLA. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz The truth is that a user of one or more operating systems other than Linux Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz are not opposed in COLA for that reason alone. Many of the Linux Advocates Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz in COLA have experience on many other operating systems besides Linux. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Many do use multiple operating systems on a regular basis. It is due to Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz this experience that any disinformation regarding the capabilities of Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Linux, or that of other operating systems are easily detected by the Linux Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz advocates. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz It is not difficult to tell the difference between an anti-Linux Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz Propagandist and a true advocates of another operating system. Occasional Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz mention of other operating systems is fine. However, it is the frequent or Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz continuous promotion of other operating systems that turns a welcome Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz poster into an unwelcome troll or anti-Linux propagandist. Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz 7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz This is a list of the disinformation tactics that the that the anti-Linux Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz propagandists who post in COLA have been using. All of these tactics have Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz been used in COLA by the anti-Linux propagandists against the Linux Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz advocates and the rest of the COLA readership to further the cause of the Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz anti-Linux pro Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz “If COLA were a physical location like a building where those who would Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz advocate the growth of the Linux operating systems and the Linux community Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz gather, the anti-Linux propagandists would be raiding that building. They Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz would be vandalizing the building, painting graffiti on the walls, Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz defecating and urinating on the floors and furniture, breaking down the Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz doors, setting fire to the building and physically assaulting the resident Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz Linux advocates and the visitors who happen to be in the building at the Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz time of the raid.” Jan 30 21:52
wasabi I’m not actually going to read any of that. Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz So why “piss on  us”? Jan 30 21:52
wasabi Can you paraphrase into a form suitable for IRC? Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz You can spray your apartment to say you don’t like what we say. That’s not vandalism. Jan 30 21:53
schestowitz trmanco: Sermo Malifer is flatfish Stewart.. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient… Jan 30 21:57
trmanco I plonked him Jan 30 21:57
schestowitz I put up a post Jan 30 21:58
trmanco I plonk the majority of Windows users Jan 30 21:58
tessier http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/01/… Jan 30 22:02
tessier BN is references in the first comment Jan 30 22:02
schestowitz Cool. Jan 30 22:04
schestowitz I like Ken’s blog Jan 30 22:04
schestowitz Oh, the comment is from Winter Jan 30 22:06
schestowitz He is (was) very prolific in Groklaw. Jan 30 22:06
schestowitz Google-backed tool detects Net filtering, blocking < http://news.zdnet.com/2424-9595… > Jan 30 22:07
MinceR http://www.samefacts.com/archives/torture_/2009… Jan 30 22:08
schestowitz *LOL* http://www.vsubhash.com/images/linux… Jan 30 22:09
MinceR old but funny Jan 30 22:09
schestowitz No eye for an eye? Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz “Since most bullies are also cowards, I suspect that the years of maltreatment the Bush Administration inflicted on innocent Afghani peasants to get them to make false confessions will not be necessary to get Bush and his cronies to confess.” Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz Oh, so no waterboarding for George then, I gues… Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz “So now is the moment for the President-elect to confute his critics, and demonstrate that he has the toughness needed to deal with the Islamofascist threat, no matter who its agents may be.” So will he criminalise them? Jan 30 22:11
*jose__ (n=jose@ has joined #boycottnovell Jan 30 22:11
MinceR read on :> Jan 30 22:14
trmanco schestowitz, was that real? Jan 30 22:16
MinceR it’s satirical Jan 30 22:16
MinceR like the original “modest proposal” Jan 30 22:16
trmanco hmm, ok Jan 30 22:17
schestowitz Incompetence in action (MS partner): Comcast Screws Up And Targets Innocent Customer In P2P Dragnet < http://techdirt.com/articles/2009… > Jan 30 22:18
schestowitz Whoa. NEC to Lay off 20,000 as Economy Bites < http://www.pcworld.com/article/158623/nec_to… > Jan 30 22:24
MinceR http://www.credoaction.com/comics/2009/01/in… Jan 30 22:24
wasabi I had no idea 20,000 people worked for NEC Jan 30 22:27
schestowitz Yes, same here re: proportion/scale of workforce. The company is a dinosaur though. Jan 30 22:29
schestowitz Samsung hs/had 700,000 Jan 30 22:29
schestowitz Ubuntu burial for poor man << http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Artic… >> Jan 30 22:33
MinceR why even bury people? Jan 30 22:34
MinceR cremate them Jan 30 22:34
MinceR or study them for science :) Jan 30 22:35
schestowitz Religion does not like this idea. Jan 30 22:36
schestowitz “What about the souls…” you know? Jan 30 22:36
MinceR the souls are supposed to be already departed Jan 30 22:36
schestowitz Cremated too? Jan 30 22:36
MinceR unless there’s a large amount of people practicing ancient egyptian faith :> Jan 30 22:36
MinceR at the point of death Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz Well, pyramid slavery and all… Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz Did you see the body they pulled from the glacier the other day? Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz Over 5000 years old… Jan 30 22:37
MinceR i’m not sure Jan 30 22:37
MinceR probably not Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz Almost old enough to scare those who believe the earth is no more than 6000 years old. Jan 30 22:37
MinceR :D Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz I think it was in the Reg Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz Wait Jan 30 22:37
MinceR i though the one in the Reg wasn’t found recently Jan 30 22:38
MinceR only analyzed more thoroughly recently Jan 30 22:38
MinceR to find the cause of death Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz I was actually shocked last month when someone here in IRC said the teachers are forbidden from telling truth about Grand Canyon Jan 30 22:38
MinceR don’t you know the world was created last Thursday? :> Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz They are not permitted to tell kids how old the canyon is Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz Wait.. Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/200… Jan 30 22:39
schestowitz That’s the dude Jan 30 22:39
MinceR whose frozen body was found preserved in an Italian glacier in 1991 Jan 30 22:39
schestowitz Windows 7: Not Quite The Change We Need < http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward… > :-) Jan 30 22:39
MinceR s/^/”/; s/$/”/ Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz I didn’t see the comment, but maybe the Vole has already unleashed Turfers on him… Jan 30 22:40
MinceR vista7 might continue the change we need Jan 30 22:40
MinceR that was already helped by vista Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz Yes Jan 30 22:40
MinceR that is, the marginalization of windows Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz I know Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz Windows for -$50 Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz “Just take it, take it!” Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz “And buy Office for $99 as addon” Jan 30 22:41
MinceR :) Jan 30 22:41
schestowitz Microsoft may be the next Symantec Jan 30 22:41
MinceR “i’ll take ten billion then. that’ll be $500 billion, thank you very much.” Jan 30 22:41
schestowitz I suppose you heard the news about Symantec Jan 30 22:41
MinceR i haven’t, but their expertise is legendary Jan 30 22:42
MinceR at least their hungarian distributors keep saying the most uninformed and stupid things publicly all the time Jan 30 22:42
schestowitz $500bn, eh? Who would loan this money Jan 30 22:42
schestowitz Microsoft must have about $5bn left in the bank ATM Jan 30 22:42
MinceR the USian government, of course Jan 30 22:42
schestowitz The Foundry of Gates is another matter Jan 30 22:43
MinceR money is created out of nothing anyway Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz That’s where they StashIt! Jan 30 22:43
*jose (n=jose@ has joined #boycottnovell Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz MinceR: money is printed Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz Either as bills or as balance sheet Jan 30 22:43
MinceR most of it actually isn’t Jan 30 22:43
MinceR it’s created in banks :) Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz Some people lost all their savings, which were tied to stock Jan 30 22:43
MinceR afaik even balance sheets are optional now Jan 30 22:44
*jose__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Jan 30 22:44
schestowitz Other people have possessions like houses. Their worth dropped, but they maintain possession. Less fortunate ones have a mortgage so they lose the house or rent it now. Jan 30 22:44
schestowitz Let me find s/t Jan 30 22:44
jose schestowitz, I fell asleep thinking about something before.. I think I’ll clean up and then present “part 1″. Jan 30 22:45
schestowitz http://www.markshuttleworth.co… Jan 30 22:46
jose I’d prefer to do part 2 before posting part 1 but I think I can clean something up that I won’t want to undo. Jan 30 22:46
schestowitz He said something along the lines of, “what does it mean to have money in the bank if the banks go bankrupt?” he’s good at macro-economics. What did he study again? Was it business? Jan 30 22:46
schestowitz jose: did you see the post about RMS quote on mono? Jan 30 22:47
schestowitz RMS: “”[…] we know that Microsoft is getting patents on some features of C#. So I think it’s dangerous to use C#, and it may be dangerous to use Mono.” Jan 30 22:47
jose not yet.. i was sleeping Jan 30 22:47
schestowitz I found this while catching up with hundreds of comments in Reddit Jan 30 22:47
*MinceR is waiting for the end of central regulation practiced by microsoft Jan 30 22:48
schestowitz http://www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html ““Microsoft’s perspective is best reflected by Bob Herbold, Chief Operating Officer, to whom the CFO reports. Bob very sincerely replied, “Bill, everyone is doing it.” “ Jan 30 22:49
schestowitz Karl Marx, Das Kapital, 1867: ”     Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised…” Jan 30 22:49
schestowitz Intel Gets Educational with Classmate PCs < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/01/30/inte… >. Education????????????????????/ Or just more bu$ine$$. Jan 30 22:51
schestowitz Spot the Orwellianism  in “Unlimited Potential” [to corrupt young minds] Jan 30 22:51
schestowitz “Unlimited Potential” is in some sense the public identity of EDGI, for which Microsoft has variants with similar acronym and “project Marshall” (Microsoft calls this Memorandum of Understanding” in public) Jan 30 22:53
jose i forgot to post this last time i was on.. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bill-Melinda-G… Jan 30 23:00
schestowitz Tell them to sod off Jan 30 23:01
schestowitz Are B&M still investing in Nigerian oil that kills kids? Jan 30 23:01
schestowitz I case you didn’t see the videos: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/th… Jan 30 23:02
schestowitz Wow. I’ve just watched carefully the latter part again. Jan 30 23:04
schestowitz So he’s injecting investments into big pharama  (billions) and then uses his ‘donations’ to feed those companies, which in turn brings him profit. Geez, this is criminal stuff. It’s like making people ill so that you can sell them medicine and call yourself a Saint. Jan 30 23:05
schestowitz “”Bill and Melinda Gates said Friday they were encouraging government and business leaders to keep investing in health and development in poor countries — especially during the global financial crisis. Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz Of course… Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz How else would big pharmas make money? Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz Gates is an investor in big pharmas Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz They need to ensure governments give money to those phramas Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz B&M need $$ Jan 30 23:08
jose like windows, claim you are working on the X that powers the world, but don’t say how you are keeping others from contributing similarly and more. Jan 30 23:11
schestowitz Yes, lying without guilt is an art Jan 30 23:14
schestowitz I’ll wrtite about this later Jan 30 23:14
schestowitz Bear in mind that B&M also fund the very govts they urge to pay pharmas here. Jan 30 23:15
schestowitz So the money in this cycle comes mostly from exploiting the poor. Jan 30 23:15
*yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-71-188-245-175.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell Jan 30 23:27
yuhong Last time I talked about DR, SCP, and MS-DOS, my point was that MS did not get big by innovating. Jan 30 23:28
MinceR and that’s correct Jan 30 23:29
MinceR (unless we argue that m$ got big by innovating in the field of crime) Jan 30 23:30
yuhong Sadly it deloved into whether MS did anything illegal here. Jan 30 23:30
yuhong MS didn’t and even if it did, that is not my point. Jan 30 23:30
yuhong MS got big because DR dropped the ball, not because DOS was innovative. Jan 30 23:31
MinceR they did and sometimes they got caught Jan 30 23:31
MinceR but many of the evil things they did were legal Jan 30 23:31
schestowitz yuhong: revisionism from you again? Jan 30 23:31
schestowitz The USDOJ disagrees with you Jan 30 23:31
schestowitz Microsoft was found guilty many times Jan 30 23:31
yuhong I am talking about back in 1981. Jan 30 23:31
yuhong the USDOJ investigations happened much later. Jan 30 23:32
MinceR investigations often investigate the past Jan 30 23:33
schestowitz http://linuxmednews.com/1233253455 (  Fedral Government To Blow Little Guy Out of the Water?) Jan 30 23:33
yuhong Yes, but USDOJ never invesigated MS back in 1981. Jan 30 23:33
yuhong I am talking about MS-DOS 1.x/original IBM era here. Jan 30 23:33
yuhong Not the Windows 3.x era, I know that by then USDOJ was investegating MS thanks to AARD. Jan 30 23:34
yuhong And other things like that. Jan 30 23:34
yuhong Anyway, whether it was illegal was beside my point. Jan 30 23:35
yuhong My point is that MS did not get big by innovating. Jan 30 23:36
yuhong In contrast, Google got big because it had PageRank. Jan 30 23:36
yuhong The things MS did in 1980-1981 was not illegal. Jan 30 23:37
yuhong I know that MS begin to be invetigated by the DOJ in the early 1990s. Jan 30 23:38
yuhong Get it now? Jan 30 23:38
*yuhong has quit (“ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]“) Jan 30 23:39
MinceR lol Jan 30 23:39
schestowitz He comes here every now again from Seattle Jan 30 23:40
schestowitz he does the same in Roughly Drafted and sites that are openly opposed to Microsoft’s crimes Jan 30 23:40
MinceR what does he want to prove anyway? Jan 30 23:40
schestowitz You should see him when ‘s going at it Jan 30 23:41
schestowitz How much he loves Vista.. Jan 30 23:41
schestowitz How Microsoft doesn’t break the law and so on.. Jan 30 23:41
MinceR :) Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz I thought he had lived in the east, but no.. Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz The English is llmited and he runs away when I ask about his location Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz Hold on.. Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz It’s better to show than to tell, so… http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/09/m… Jan 30 23:43
schestowitz “There was also news that left a hint of egg on some Redmond faces. Specifically, citing a confidential memo from Microsoft that was used as evidence in antitrust proceedings, an article on Boycott Novell charged that a Microsoft “task force” lobbied Wal-Mart “ Jan 30 23:43
schestowitz “More than 1,400 Diggs and 300 comments greeted that one on Digg, even as bloggers also pondered a post from CNet’s Matt Asay titled “Facts Behind Microsoft’s Anti-Linux Campaign.”” Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz Both of these are BN posts…  http://www.linuxinsider.com/r… Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz I have another Intel one coming tomorrow Jan 30 23:44
MinceR so he’s a drive-by troll :> Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz http://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft_on… It’ll make LinuxToday FP. Jan 30 23:44
jose roy, i’m not happy with how the draft sounds.. I don’t think i’ll be able to do very much more until sunday earliest. Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz wasabi might want to troll this one too, as he did earlier today Jan 30 23:45
schestowitz I’ll post it tomorrow. Headline: Bill Gates: “This huge [Linux] Driver Group Scares Me.” Jan 30 23:45
schestowitz Someone did the text for nme Jan 30 23:45
schestowitz “If it’s a scanned image I just type it up…for me it seems faster to do that.  If it’s already OCRd, then I copy the text and paste it into gedit, and then compare the two side by side and correct the OCR mistakes.  The hardest part is making sure the mistakes in the original text are left intact.” We do the same thing in BN… Jan 30 23:46
schestowitz But I use Kate, not gedit (GNOME.. meh) Jan 30 23:46
schestowitz She’s using Free software (Scribus). Scribus would be delighted to know. I was in touch with them before (USENET). Jan 30 23:47
schestowitz Tomorrow’s is Plaintiff’s Exhibit 6567 Jan 30 23:47
schestowitz jose: no rush, thanks. Jan 30 23:47
jose thanks.. maybe i’ll email you an update. Jan 30 23:48
schestowitz Katherine Noyes cites us quite a few time… good stuff.. http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstor… Jan 30 23:48
schestowitz Firefox gets a Live Search add-in, but does anyone care? http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/01/f… Jan 30 23:49
schestowitz Microsoft brags about it as though it contributes to FOSS Jan 30 23:49
schestowitz It’s like putting a Nike ad in a squash court and then claiming credit for ‘decorating’ the place Jan 30 23:50
schestowitz Poor martionette… http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/0… … was handed a mess to deal with. He can start by cleaning up the fascistic laws (“amendments”) and prosecuting Bucheney Jan 30 23:51
schestowitz jose: Funny comments here < http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?… >. Seen em yet? Jan 30 23:52
jose 8 out of 10 terrorists are smarter… Jan 30 23:55
schestowitz They are not always stupid Jan 30 23:56
schestowitz In the US, people who are against the invasion of Iraq are labeled terrorists too Jan 30 23:56
schestowitz This was in the news some months ago Jan 30 23:56
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