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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 2nd, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 8:07 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

schestowitz (Since this was posted I’ve had a number of emails pointing out that George has acquired quite a reputation for this sort of behaviour, sometimes in private mail and sometimes on public blogs. “ Feb 02 14:27
schestowitz The Microsoft talking points receive platforms in ZDNet Feb 02 14:27
schestowitz Ou, Bought[sic], Foley, Caroll, etc. Feb 02 14:28
schestowitz Even the ‘*nix’ guys are anti-Linux Feb 02 14:28
oiaohm_ I am sorry sometimes the Unix guys are right. Feb 02 14:28
schestowitz Dana Blakenhorn never uses Linux and Murph (who keeps identity secret) just slings shots at Linux Feb 02 14:28
oiaohm_ Linux does not beat Unix for everything yet. Feb 02 14:28
schestowitz You mean, Murphy? Feb 02 14:29
oiaohm_ Solarias management tools are hard to beat. Feb 02 14:29
oiaohm_ Remember Solarias was known for being the best of the best in the Unix’s for configuration. Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz OK Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz But the point is.. Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz ZDnet harbours FOSS/Linux-hostile writers Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz They tried to change this, but editorial control is showing Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz Same in CNET Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz Same bias Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_ Yes of course. Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz The ‘open source’ guy slams Linux and promotes Macs Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_ they were good stuff. Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz There are no Linux people there. Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz None. Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz IDG has just one.. Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz SJVN Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_ For advertising dollars. Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz Apple and Microsoft pay a lot to CNET Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz That’s not resporting Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz That’s journalistic prostitution Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_ Linux personal bating Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz Of course Feb 02 14:31
schestowitz “Kicks Linux to the Curb” Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_ They would complain about it and other people would visit. Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_ Its bit like Linux effect on game sales. Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_ You sell to the 5 percent of the market that are Linux gammers. Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_ Dobble you windows game sales. Feb 02 14:31
schestowitz People use console these days, some of the time Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_ Yes they knew what they were doing. Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz So the barrier to Linux wrt gaming is lower Feb 02 14:32
oiaohm_ Problem is now Linux guys are making there writers look like idiots. Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz Who does? Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz Oh Feb 02 14:32
oiaohm_ What really does not do there over all image look good. Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz Not theirs as in the Linux’ Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz In BN we are openly critical of publications and biases Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_ No other people writing answers. Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_ Money is always a bias Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz Yes, motivating factor Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_ You think MS has to pay to get bias. Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz Press needs to suppress this factor Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz Same in academia Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_ Its traffic as well. Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz I see how professors strives to prove their ‘party line’ Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_ More traffic more advertisment dollars. Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz Or when sponsorships are inolved you are ‘/told/ what to prove, not what to study Feb 02 14:34
oiaohm_ So highly volitale articals are good for money. Feb 02 14:34
oiaohm_ As long as you don’t get sued. Feb 02 14:34
schestowitz Lessig studies how pharmas use this to fake ‘studies’ and ‘research’ Feb 02 14:34
oiaohm_ Think about newspapers not talking about IT then gossip mags. Feb 02 14:34
schestowitz When people claim that, say.. lots of water is good for you.. ask for proof Feb 02 14:34
schestowitz Don’t accept anything Feb 02 14:35
oiaohm_ Too much water will kill you as some firefighters here found out. Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz I could find that Lessig post Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz He made a good presentation about it with examples too Feb 02 14:35
oiaohm_ I mean by drinking it not drowning too. Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz About global warming disinfo and nutritional recommendation lies that kill people. Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz There’s also stuff like this: http://www.bermanexposed.org Feb 02 14:36
oiaohm_ Global warming is far more risky if my model is right. Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz More riskt than what? Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz Sure, it’s risky Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz It’s risky to Exxon’s business :-) Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz Like Microsoft needs DRM for security… of its profit Feb 02 14:37
oiaohm_ My model not perfect but my model is working on that ICE is reducing its effect. Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz Look back at research for the 90s Feb 02 14:37
oiaohm_ So global ice disappers then it raise a lot quicky. Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz Before the Corporations polluted the pull with counter ‘arguments’ Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz Then the theme changes Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz Not whether we lose ice Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz But whether /humans/ cause it Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_ There are two effects blancing either other too. Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_ Global warming and Global dimming. Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz But that’s a simple equation Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_ Global dimming stops evaporation. Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz Yes. Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz In turn.. same result Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_ Also has a cooling effects. Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz Population grew by a factor of like 3 in one century Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_ So if dimming alone was working we should be colder. Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz People forget this Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz Also in dustrialisation Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz *industrialisation Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_ The sun and sea provides us with more than enough power of we can extract it. Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_ Solar panels are the biggest joke of all. Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz So people use scales of time inapporpiately… comparing times of lumber and no production with gasoline to a society of boxes and mechinery Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_ Solar panels take more power to make than what they provide in there complet life in most cases. Feb 02 14:40
schestowitz I think so too, but depending on scale of time. Feb 02 14:40
schestowitz It’s a long-term investment Feb 02 14:40
oiaohm_ No doing the long term maths. Feb 02 14:40
schestowitz The only solution to global warning = much smaller population Feb 02 14:40
oiaohm_ Solar panels have a max operational life. Feb 02 14:41
schestowitz control birth  or die Feb 02 14:41
schestowitz Like in Africa.. Feb 02 14:41
oiaohm_ Working on that the Solar Panel last that long most cases it will never pay back the power that made it. Feb 02 14:41
oiaohm_ Damaged panels and failed panels make the loss worse. Feb 02 14:41
oiaohm_ Really you should think of Solar Panels as light batteries. Feb 02 14:42
oiaohm_ Only Solar Panels that pay back in there operation live have mirrors focusing light onto them. Feb 02 14:42
oiaohm_ Really global warming does not need smaller popultation. Feb 02 14:43
oiaohm_ The world does have enough power for 12 times the current global poplutation that is clean. Feb 02 14:43
schestowitz WTF?  Microsoft Update Slips In a Firefox Extension < http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=… > Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_ Yep Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_ Microsoft is getting desperate Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz Isn’t this illegal? It’s worse than Apple’s Safari shove-in. Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz No, Microsoft is getting more criminal Feb 02 14:44
trmanco schestowitz, I told you that MS was pushing crap into Firefox Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz It takes over people’s PCs Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz The EULA permits it Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_ Its a sign that MS is losing browser war. Feb 02 14:44
trmanco .NET crap Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz But the competition authorities need to step in Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_ If they want .net to take off they cannot stay execulsve with it any more. Feb 02 14:45
trmanco they won’t Feb 02 14:45
trmanco becasue it is Micro~ Feb 02 14:45
oiaohm_ EU might Feb 02 14:45
oiaohm_ EU sue MS get dollars Feb 02 14:45
schestowitz Not good enough Feb 02 14:47
schestowitz Embargo would actually work Feb 02 14:47
schestowitz The Microsoft Cult, however, attacks the Commission using its European multinational gangs and lobbyists Feb 02 14:47
oiaohm_ http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9416  << My god Zdnet guys are getting brain rot. Feb 02 14:48
oiaohm_ Unify Mac and Linux would be a really bad long term problem for MS. Feb 02 14:50
MinceR it would be a really bad long term problem for linux, too Feb 02 14:50
MinceR as long as apple behaves the way it does Feb 02 14:50
schestowitz they get paid per comment/view Feb 02 14:51
schestowitz fast Feb 02 14:51
schestowitz fact Feb 02 14:51
*schestowitz eats, type w/ one hand Feb 02 14:51
MinceR apple isn’t willing to play nice with anyone Feb 02 14:51
MinceR or to leave any control to anyone but themselves Feb 02 14:51
oiaohm_ Funny enough depends where. Feb 02 14:51
MinceR especially not to the users Feb 02 14:51
schestowitz provocation= more comments= more monet Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_ Apple with cups plays fairly nice with the reset of the open source world. Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_ Some sections of apple don’t play nice with the open source world. Feb 02 14:52
schestowitz no Feb 02 14:52
MinceR see what they did to khtml Feb 02 14:52
schestowitz many Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_ Remember Apple could not get printer drivers. Feb 02 14:52
MinceR the code had to be pried out of them Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_ So had to play nice with open source and become good. Feb 02 14:52
MinceR oiaohm_: so they bought the guys who developed cups Feb 02 14:52
MinceR that’s pretty commercial-looking to me Feb 02 14:53
MinceR we’re lucky they didn’t close the project Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_ They could not buy them all. Feb 02 14:53
schestowitz perlow trool Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_ They bough the keys. Feb 02 14:53
schestowitz gah Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_ MinceR: if Apple needs something bad enough they do play ball. Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_ with khtml there were not in a location where they needed to play ball. Feb 02 14:54
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/26… Feb 02 14:54
schestowitz ^linksL apple vs foss Feb 02 14:54
schestowitz many links Feb 02 14:54
oiaohm_ Remember I said some sections are friendly to Foss Feb 02 14:54
oiaohm_ Not all. Feb 02 14:54
MinceR oiaohm_: so they don’t play ball if they aren’t forced to Feb 02 14:55
MinceR which means they aren’t friendly Feb 02 14:55
MinceR which means the FLOSS community needs none of their influence Feb 02 14:55
oiaohm_ But when forced by there needs they are masively friendly. Feb 02 14:55
MinceR what apple does is only good for apple and nobody else Feb 02 14:55
MinceR there’s no such thing as being forced to be friendly Feb 02 14:55
oiaohm_ So to a lot of other companies that give code to open source. Feb 02 14:55
MinceR there’s only faking friendliness as long as you have to. Feb 02 14:55
oiaohm_ There is a difference. Feb 02 14:56
oiaohm_ At first with cups they faked friendly ness. Feb 02 14:56
oiaohm_ Then they worked out that it was making there life hard with holding features. Feb 02 14:56
schestowitz OK, back ti typing normally Feb 02 14:56
MinceR see what apple did to strace to keep the stupidest of users from using it on their DRM Feb 02 14:57
oiaohm_ So now they are moving forwards with a completely common printer stack across all posix like platforms. Feb 02 14:57
schestowitz Apple talks about OSS only when the cameras are on (PR) Feb 02 14:57
MinceR (it shows their contempt for non-apple developers, too) Feb 02 14:57
MinceR see how they allow developers, especially FLOSS into the crapphone Feb 02 14:57
schestowitz Allow? Feb 02 14:58
MinceR they aren’t moving forward with that, they’ve bought it when it was already ready Feb 02 14:58
oiaohm_ Basically more interaction forced between Apple and Floss will see more changes. Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz They kick some out Feb 02 14:58
MinceR yes, detrimental changes Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz oiaohm_: I used to think the same Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz Apple has hubris Feb 02 14:58
oiaohm_ Not detrimental.  Remember cups was detrimental at first. Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz And it was never about FOSS Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz Woz mocks FOSS Feb 02 14:58
oiaohm_ Ie apple only alterations to do color management. Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz They are like Redmond some of them… but one was less criminal and thus less ‘successful’ Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz That’s the market rule to them Feb 02 14:59
oiaohm_ So keeping apple ahead of everything else not Apple. Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz Total DRM/iTunes/whatever domination Feb 02 14:59
oiaohm_ Apple over time worked out that was bad for them. Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz They are driven by greedy investors Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz Ethics don’t matter Feb 02 14:59
oiaohm_ Since drivers developed for Linux would not work right on there cups stack. Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz Fair competition… neither. Feb 02 15:00
oiaohm_ Same happened with khtml too. Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz And Apple probably exploits FOSS more than Mcirosoft these days Feb 02 15:00
oiaohm_ They took it altered it then found it hard to maintain. Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz Microsoft just wants FOSS to be on Windows Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz Apple actually pulls FOSS and make closed products from that Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz Like “thanks for the good labour, we’ll have some of dat” Feb 02 15:00
oiaohm_ Apple is finding more and more that not giving back has prices. Feb 02 15:01
schestowitz Giving back is one thingf Feb 02 15:01
schestowitz But if you give back Webit and then use mallware tactic to shove Safari, that’s no use Feb 02 15:01
schestowitz That’s the equivalent of me giving back the farmer the pit of the Apple that I eat and say “here, chew this..” Feb 02 15:02
oiaohm_ schestowitz: I did not say changing Apple way would be fast. Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz Apple is part of a bigger problrm Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz This includes DRM Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz FSF tries to reform Apple in that resgard Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz *regard Feb 02 15:02
oiaohm_ Reform has to come from customers. Feb 02 15:02
oiaohm_ If no one buys DRM media why would you try to sell it. Feb 02 15:03
schestowitz “SQL Databases4/∞.. “ Feb 02 15:03
schestowitz Too bad I only get access to 3 of them… where’s the host…? Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz oiaohm_: people don’t function this way Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz They don’t know what DRM means Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz I speak to people, they know nothing about it Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz They are shown shiny iXXX and told to by the s* — whatever rules apply Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz Prying on ignorance. Feb 02 15:05
schestowitz Preying Feb 02 15:05
oiaohm_ You said the problem. Feb 02 15:05
schestowitz http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/0… (One Million SSL Sites on the Web) Feb 02 15:05
oiaohm_ Vista put some light in the darkness of ignorance Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz It did, maybe. Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz People are still too silly to generalise Feb 02 15:06
oiaohm_ we need a major DRM provider failure cutting people off to wake them up about DRM. Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz Unless they are reformed, but this comes from schooling, which is deformed by agendas Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz People blame the Microsoft brand, not the art of deception, aka marketing Feb 02 15:07
schestowitz We can only hope that more people start asking question… like… WHY do these people lose their jobs… and WHY… we entered Iraw Feb 02 15:07
oiaohm_ Yep they are to ignorance to see the difference yet. Feb 02 15:07
schestowitz The questions are very simple and obvious, but they are not delivered to the public… Bill O’Reilly and such.. Feb 02 15:08
oiaohm_ Education what you are doing is part of the way forward. Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz It doesn’t pay Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz Try to say the truth as a teacher Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz The business community will go up the neck of the school Feb 02 15:08
oiaohm_ Now depends. Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz This is something I not only read about but saw too Feb 02 15:08
oiaohm_ Its bit like saying Linux kernel does not pay. Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz People are rewarded for conformism Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_ Doing that it self does not pay. Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_ Yet support and other things pay. Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz And pressure by peers/superiors or even students that are brainwash to mock and gag the truthtellers Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_ Do you have a t-shirt with you logo on ? Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz That’s the good art of propagada Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz How to dissent truth Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_ There is more than 1 way to make money. Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz Me? Logo? Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz No. Just company brands.. clothing companies Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz But Linux is different Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz It’s joint development Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz Same with Apache Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz It’s a pool of code.. Feb 02 15:10
oiaohm_ The Icon you use on your Web page. Feb 02 15:11
oiaohm_ I classed that as your Logo. Feb 02 15:11
schestowitz What the folks from Redmond would conveniently descrtbe as “dangrous” and “Communism” Feb 02 15:11
schestowitz What about the logo? Feb 02 15:11
oiaohm_ You said it don’t pay.  What I was getting at what can we buy to give you money. Feb 02 15:12
schestowitz MEPIS for a big fan (but doesn’t SJVN use GNOME now?): http://practical-tech.com/operating-sys… Feb 02 15:12
oiaohm_ Logo on pens and stuff allows people to give yet fell happy they got something for it also can advertise you. Feb 02 15:13
oiaohm_ So all round win for education. Feb 02 15:13
schestowitz Yes, I did this as a youngster in Junior Achievements Feb 02 15:13
schestowitz But that’s a separate thing Feb 02 15:14
schestowitz To be frank, I don’t know how to resolve these socio-economic issue and like many others I am sometimes better at criticising the broken Feb 02 15:14
schestowitz *issues Feb 02 15:14
oiaohm_ Lot of things I can explain how to fix. Feb 02 15:15
oiaohm_ The money stuff up at moment is a little too random to know enough to pick best path. Feb 02 15:15
oiaohm_ Giving out money normally don’t slove socio-economic problems. Feb 02 15:16
oiaohm_ Giving out information is normally the solution.  ie the old one give some a loaf of bread feed them for a day.  Teach them how to make bread might fead them for a life time.  Its still true today. Feb 02 15:17
schestowitz *LOL* http://www.openxml.info/ Feb 02 15:17
schestowitz Alberto Barrionuevo linked to it (FFII) Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz Give money to /whom/? Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz Sometimes these things make matters worse Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz Like giving gunships as ‘gifts’ to trouble countries Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz Gunships kill people; things like factories can enslave people with low wages and poor conditions. So it’s really not a matter of monet Feb 02 15:20
schestowitz RMS told me too (and I was stunned at the time) that a company like MySQL needs to think about social issues before money. I asked about the dual-licensing. Feb 02 15:21
schestowitz But it’s very true that part of this quation must account for other effects that play a role. Feb 02 15:21
oiaohm_ I did not say giving out information was always a helpful fix. Feb 02 15:21
schestowitz Other intellectuals like RMS hold the same position, increasingly so amid these times. Feb 02 15:21
schestowitz Things will get a lot crazier where the already-poor are reduced to gutter level Feb 02 15:22
oiaohm_ Give someone the means to make a bomb they can use that against you. Feb 02 15:22
schestowitz And they have many reasons to be angry Feb 02 15:22
oiaohm_ USA could find it self in cilival war again. Feb 02 15:22
schestowitz I’ve just caught up with  the rest of the message Feb 02 15:23
schestowitz Information with regards to methods is another thing Feb 02 15:23
schestowitz Like teaching people about farming or .. well, even about safe sex. Feb 02 15:23
schestowitz But the information I’m referring to is the understanding of the society Feb 02 15:24
oiaohm_ Also teaching people how to spot a conn job. Feb 02 15:24
schestowitz heh. I though you said cron job Feb 02 15:24
oiaohm_ Something we are bady lacking in global education systems. Feb 02 15:24
oiaohm_ Reason why I though about the trivia game. Feb 02 15:25
oiaohm_ There is never just one way to teach a skill. Feb 02 15:26
oiaohm_ Catch you around Feb 02 15:26
*oiaohm_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Feb 02 15:26
schestowitz Lots of snow here today…. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/7…   Comcast testing new free Wi-Fi service < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/… > Feb 02 15:39
schestowitz Ha! “Authentication required!” http://ip-watch.org/subscribers/subscri… Livin’ in the past Feb 02 15:43
schestowitz http://www.ciol.com/News/Interviews/Paten… ” How many patents do you have in India? Sorry, in sync with the IBM’s globally integrated collaborative work culture and strongly aligned processes, we don’t reveal country specific numbers.” What an ‘OPEN’ company…… Feb 02 15:47
schestowitz This is so annoying Feb 02 16:01
schestowitz Still no db Feb 02 16:01
schestowitz I’ve just mailed them again.. Feb 02 16:01
schestowitz It’s like they don’t even take a look at it.. Feb 02 16:02
schestowitz “I am the writer of boycottnovell.com, which you host. Yesterday morning the domain had one of its mysql databases, boycottn_wrdp1, go out of reach (gone after a MySQL server reboot). I need this resorted immediately as the site depends on this database. My co-editor Shane Coyle (registered with you as web-prophet) cannot resolve this from his end, either. This needs an admin to check what happened the the database to restore it.   Feb 02 16:02
schestowitz Please mail me back re: status ASAP.” Feb 02 16:02
schestowitz Wow! So much damage contol from the Microsoft press Feb 02 16:11
schestowitz The theme is: Microsoft hires despite layoffs. Feb 02 16:11
schestowitz About 5 publication, mostly those in Microsoft’s pockers Feb 02 16:11
schestowitz *pckets Feb 02 16:12
schestowitz http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/conten… “Microsoft: Layoffs for Some, Visas for Others” Feb 02 16:12
*jose (n=jose@ has joined #boycottnovell Feb 02 16:14
schestowitz Paedophiles could target kids using Microsoft’s Xbox 360 < http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news… > Feb 02 16:15
schestowitz Paedophiles could also target kids ‘using’ playground Feb 02 16:16
schestowitz Paedophiles could also target kids ‘using’ phone Feb 02 16:16
jose .. or using a house made out of candy Feb 02 16:20
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans… Feb 02 16:21
MinceR mmmm, candy Feb 02 16:21
MinceR Hans Grosse and Greta Grosse? :> Feb 02 16:21
schestowitz Maybe they (IWF) should block Wikipedia for embracing pedophelia… Feb 02 16:22
schestowitz If the host doesn’t reply by the end of the day, maybe I’ll just go ahead and throw away the broken DB. Feb 02 16:23
schestowitz At least we get a lot of visitors still…. over a quarter of a million hits today even without any new posts since 30 hours ago Feb 02 16:23
schestowitz Uh oh!! Feb 02 16:24
schestowitz http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/02/two-microsoft-v… Two Microsoft Veterans Leap to Openbravo, Open Source Movement Feb 02 16:24
schestowitz More poison… just wait until they push for Windows Server. Feb 02 16:25
schestowitz In the news: references to Vista: 3 Windows 7: 20 , i.e. they moved on to vapourware Feb 02 16:28
wasabi Those guys should have some awesome success. Navison made an amazing product. Feb 02 16:35
wasabi And they did good work on it at MS. Can’t wait to see what Openbravo turns into. Feb 02 16:35
kentma1 Microsoft will continue to use the old marketing methods… it’s entirely ingrained in their culture. Feb 02 16:37
kentma1 vapourware has been almost as successful as windows has been for them :-) Feb 02 16:37
schestowitz Microsoft moles are hijacking vmware: http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/28/software-vir… (Bringing Microsoft To VMware) Feb 02 16:37
kentma1 it won’t work on the long-run.  Open source, at least with the right licence, is un-corruptible Feb 02 16:38
kentma1 this is why GPLv3 was of such great import. Feb 02 16:38
schestowitz VMware is proprietary Feb 02 16:38
wasabi Hey, since you guys are so rabidly anti-MS, maybe I might have luck just asking this here.  Looking for a solution which is comparable to SharePoint: form based business process workflow.  Would *love* an open source solution that was decent… but have not found one. Feb 02 16:38
schestowitz Or are you talking about Vista7? Feb 02 16:38
kentma1 I know, but there are always going to be open-source solutions for middleware which cannot be corrupted was my point. Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz wasabi: that would go well with youu Windows Mobile. Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz *your Feb 02 16:39
wasabi schestowitz: It was a serious question. Feb 02 16:39
wasabi Thanks for your unhelpful answer, though. :0 Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz This is assimilation Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz Like Mono Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz It serves MS Feb 02 16:39
wasabi What is? I asked you for an open source alternative. Feb 02 16:39
kentma1 wasabi: sharepoint? Feb 02 16:39
wasabi Did you read my question? Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz They turn rivals into subsidiaries Feb 02 16:40
kentma1 is this a joke, or is it a serious question? Feb 02 16:40
wasabi I seriously want an open source solution. SharePoint sucks. Feb 02 16:40
wasabi But it is the best I’ve found. Feb 02 16:40
kentma1 wasabi: what other solutions have you considered? Feb 02 16:40
wasabi Only closed things. Big stuff. From people like Lazerfish. Feb 02 16:40
wasabi I have not found an open source solution which is comparable, yet. Feb 02 16:40
kentma1 wasabi: what problem are you trying to solve?  These difficulties usually start with trying to emulate a particular solution, rather than trying to fix a problem. Feb 02 16:41
wasabi I am trying to automate business workflow. That is, the processes people go through in their day to day activities. Feb 02 16:41
jose wasabi, it would help us if you listed what you have looked at in the foss world and why you thought it fell short Feb 02 16:41
kentma1 ah, we use databases for that. Feb 02 16:41
wasabi jose: I haven’t found anything. Feb 02 16:41
kentma1 jose:  he hasn’t looked at anything open-source. Feb 02 16:41
wasabi The idea is you use an interface to design forms, and hook those forms together on a GUI that lets you connect actions to other actions. This makes your business self-documenting. Feb 02 16:42
wasabi When person files form, task is made for othe rperson. When other person finishes task, task is made for other person. Feb 02 16:42
wasabi Workflow. Feb 02 16:42
kentma1 wasabi – what actually happens is people create what they “think” is happening, and you end up with a mess. Feb 02 16:42
kentma1 The best solution to workflow we’ve ever done was based on a database. Feb 02 16:42
wasabi that’s a non answer. Feb 02 16:43
wasabi a database is not an application. Feb 02 16:43
kentma1 nothing complex, very simple, works extremely well. Feb 02 16:43
kentma1 wasabi: it’s the answer we used, to great effect. Feb 02 16:43
wasabi So you wrote your own software? Feb 02 16:43
kentma1 no, we used an existing database. Feb 02 16:43
wasabi Of? Feb 02 16:43
kentma1 data? Feb 02 16:43
wasabi … and who wrote the schema? Feb 02 16:43
wasabi And who wrote the apps people would use to put data into the database? Feb 02 16:44
kentma1 apps?  we just had a web front-end – nothing complicated.  This kind of thing is done day in and day-out with the LAMP stack. Feb 02 16:44
wasabi Uh huh. Lets pretend I don’t have a development team willing to take that on, hence why I’m looking for a product of some sort. Feb 02 16:44
kentma1 wasabi:  how big a company are you doing this for? Feb 02 16:45
wasabi 500+ users? Feb 02 16:45
jose wasabi, i think you are in the wrong forum.. as a foss vendor for their brochure Feb 02 16:45
wasabi jose: I know I’m in the wrong forum. I stated that up front. Feb 02 16:45
jose “ask a foss vendor….” Feb 02 16:45
kentma1 wasabi:  then you shouldn’t be on your own.  You need to do this properly. Feb 02 16:45
wasabi This is obviously the wrong forum. :0 Feb 02 16:45
kentma1 I think you’re the wrong person for the job… unless you plan on leaving something unmaintainable behind you. Feb 02 16:46
wasabi What i was trying to say is: “I an evaluating share point, because it does all this; but I don’t like sharepoint, so would like an alternative, are any of you aware of one?” Feb 02 16:46
jose for enough users, you probably should invest in some sort of development “team”. Feb 02 16:46
kentma1 jose:  that was my point. Feb 02 16:46
wasabi You guys don’t really have any idea. Feb 02 16:46
wasabi I find it interesting how you have somehow judged my development experience from this conversation. Feb 02 16:46
kentma1 wasabi:  I think your solution is risky. Feb 02 16:47
wasabi Which solution? Feb 02 16:47
wasabi I have not proposed one. I have asked for suggestions. Feb 02 16:47
kentma1 wasabi:  a one-man band. Feb 02 16:47
wasabi And where have I mentioned that? Feb 02 16:47
kentma1 ” Uh huh. Lets pretend I don’t have a development team willing to take that on, hence why I’m looking for a product of some sort.” Feb 02 16:47
wasabi I don’t have a development team “willing to take that one.” Feb 02 16:48
wasabi I do have a development team. Feb 02 16:48
wasabi I also don’t have a development team willing to write a kernel. Feb 02 16:48
kentma1 You are trying to automate a process, the real issue here is about what process you’re trying to automate. Feb 02 16:48
wasabi So I choose to find that elsewhere. Feb 02 16:48
wasabi Ad I’ve already told you. General purpose business workflow. Feb 02 16:48
kentma1 wasabi:  processes are the lifeblood of businesses.  This is not something to solve as a one man band that you then walk away from. Feb 02 16:49
wasabi Which very expensive solutions exist for. Solutions I’m not all too happy with; and since you guys seem to Hate things like SharePoint, I’d assume you had something better in mind. Feb 02 16:49
wasabi But I seem to have been wrong. Feb 02 16:49
kentma1 there is no such thing as “general purpose workflow”, though, all businesses have their own processes. Feb 02 16:49
wasabi yes, there is. Feb 02 16:49
wasabi All businesses can be rendered down to a set of person-person or person-client interactions that have a set of rules and tasks. Feb 02 16:50
wasabi Software exists to make modeling that as easy as drag n drop. Feb 02 16:50
kentma1 The best solution is to work out what you’re trying to do, and then use something standard, and maintainable, such as a lamp stack. Feb 02 16:50
wasabi You’re insane. :0 Feb 02 16:50
kentma1 no, I’ve just done this a lot,  and I understand where the gaping elephant traps are. Feb 02 16:50
kentma1 mistake no1:  pick solution before you understand problem. Feb 02 16:51
wasabi As do I. The biggest trap is assuming you can manage a software development project of that size, when existing solutions exist. Feb 02 16:51
wasabi If a solution already exists, every second you spend reinventing it is a waste of a second. Feb 02 16:51
kentma1 nope, the biggest trap is picking a solution before you understand the problem. Feb 02 16:51
kentma1 How much process documentation already exists? Feb 02 16:51
wasabi And I  already understand the problem, and have even mentioned it to you. Feb 02 16:51
kentma1 How much detail do you have? Feb 02 16:51
wasabi http://www.laserfiche.com/archive_products/avante.html Feb 02 16:51
jose wasabi you assume that these general products will solve all your particular needs Feb 02 16:51
wasabi They will. Feb 02 16:51
kentma1 haha! Feb 02 16:52
wasabi But they are expensive. Hence I am looking for alternatives. Feb 02 16:52
wasabi Openbravo is the kind of thing I’m looking for. Feb 02 16:52
wasabi But for workflow, not ERP. Feb 02 16:52
kentma1 what workflow?  How much process documentation do you already have? Feb 02 16:52
wasabi I’ve told you, the documentation should be in the software. Feb 02 16:52
wasabi So we don’t need external documentation. Feb 02 16:52
wasabi Self-documenting. Feb 02 16:52
kentma1 wasabi:  now you look like someone who’s never automated a process at all. Feb 02 16:52
wasabi You know, using computers to make jobs easier. :0 Feb 02 16:53
wasabi kentma1: You have no idea. Feb 02 16:53
kentma1 only if you understand what the job is, and you appear to have no idea what it is. Feb 02 16:53
wasabi kentma1: Do I need to know the specifies of the company to shop for a CRM system? Feb 02 16:53
kentma1 do you have *any* documentation about the process you’re trying to automate? Feb 02 16:53
wasabi Or to shop for an ERP system? Feb 02 16:53
kentma1 wasabi:  if you’re automating, yes, you need to know every single tiny tiny step. Feb 02 16:53
wasabi No. Because they are packaged. Feb 02 16:53
wasabi They are packaged solutions which are designed to be flexible. Feb 02 16:54
kentma1 wasabi:  nope, they’re not – they’re unique to every situatino. Feb 02 16:54
wasabi Oh man. That’s not true at all. Feb 02 16:54
wasabi Customer-client relations are super well-understood. Feb 02 16:54
wasabi ERP is super wel understood. Feb 02 16:54
kentma1 if you want a CRM package, then use one. Feb 02 16:54
kentma1 you’re talking about process automation. Feb 02 16:54
wasabi I am trying to draw an analogy. Feb 02 16:54
schestowitz Tasks don’t need to be complex to solve… or to use complex software Feb 02 16:55
wasabi Packaged software exists for both problem domains. Feb 02 16:55
kentma1 You appear to have no documentation about a process in use by around 500 people that you’re going to automate as a one-man band leaving behind nobody who knows how to maintain the system.  You’ll put them out of business. Feb 02 16:55
schestowitz Just because some O/S like Vista is ‘big’ (in terms of GB) doesn’t mean it’ll improve staff output.. it’ll impede itr Feb 02 16:55
wasabi schestowitz: I have 500+ users. I want these users to be working from a list of tasks telling them what to do next. Each time they are finished with a task, i want more tasks automaticallyg enerated for the next people involved in the process. Feb 02 16:55
wasabi I have some 100+ different ‘business processes’, each with it’s own pathway to completion. Feb 02 16:55
kentma1 wasabi:  lamp stack.  trivial. Feb 02 16:56
wasabi The configuration of those processes needs to be doable by somebody who is not a programmer: department heads. Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz You don’t need a team to write a kernel Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz Your overstatements don’t serve your message Feb 02 16:56
kentma1 wasabi;  department heads *never* write processes, sorry. Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz FOSS is about making components like kernel a commodity Feb 02 16:56
wasabi kentma1: Welcome to the real world. Feb 02 16:56
kentma1 wasabi:  I’m in it, and I do this stuff for real. Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz You have Web server, you have DB… all free and open Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz Use them, Feb 02 16:56
wasabi This conversation is silly. You guys have never managed a large company. Feb 02 16:56
wasabi Question ended. Feb 02 16:57
kentma1 wasabi:  you never posed a serious question in the first place. Feb 02 16:57
schestowitz You choose to pair with a one-man band like some Lezelsoft (??) or whatever instead of shating resources with hundreds of companies that build sw together. Feb 02 16:57
schestowitz And if lezersoft or whatever it’s called goes bankrupt, then maybe you will too Feb 02 16:57
wasabi In real life, that does not happen. Feb 02 16:58
wasabi The product works after bankruptcy, gets bought, and maybe renamed. Feb 02 16:58
kentma1 wasabi:  in real life it’s happening every day. Feb 02 16:58
wasabi Name one example. Feb 02 16:58
kentma1 wasabi:  Nortel. Feb 02 16:58
kentma1 wasabi:  Nokia & Siemens Feb 02 16:58
wasabi So nortel’s equipment no longer works? Feb 02 16:58
wasabi Siemen’s software no longer works? Feb 02 16:58
kentma1 Alcatel & Lucent. Feb 02 16:58
wasabi None of those are examples. Feb 02 16:58
kentma1 Alcatel have scrapped all their previous equipment and use Lucent’s instead. Feb 02 16:58
wasabi Great. All the existing equipment you might have bought from Alcatel does not one morning stop working. Feb 02 16:59
kentma1 Most of Siemens’ IMS kit is scrapped and they’re using Nokia’s Feb 02 16:59
wasabi It continues working. Feb 02 16:59
schestowitz are you suggesting LAMP is ‘hard’? Feb 02 16:59
wasabi And the IMS kit continues to run for people who bought it. Feb 02 16:59
kentma1 wasabi:  no, it doesn’t – support is “EOLed, and the licence is expired. Feb 02 16:59
schestowitz Did you ever try fixing a broken Windows or IIS? Feb 02 16:59
wasabi schestowitz: I’m suggesting “LAMP” is like suggesting I use “C” to implement a “CRM” Feb 02 16:59
schestowitz No tools at hand.. Feb 02 16:59
wasabi schestowitz: I managed 200+ Windows servers. Feb 02 16:59
wasabi And 100+ Linux server. Feb 02 16:59
wasabi manage. Present tense. Feb 02 16:59
kentma1 wasabi:  a nice little network. Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz wasabi: no, when projects die, then they usually die Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz There are many examples Feb 02 17:00
wasabi No, they don’t. The code keeps working. Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz Then your data is stuck in a blob Feb 02 17:00
kentma1 schestowitz: I just mentioned several Feb 02 17:00
wasabi If the code ‘turns off’ when teh company dies, then it’s an issue. But that does not happen. Feb 02 17:00
kentma1 wasabi:  no, it doesn’t keep working – the licences are withdrawn. Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz Eudora comes to mind, though they try to ‘rescue’ it Feb 02 17:00
wasabi Except like, for Steam. heh. Feb 02 17:00
wasabi kentma1: They are not. Feb 02 17:00
wasabi kentma1: That is absolutely illegal. Feb 02 17:00
wasabi kentma1: One cannot ‘withdraw’ a license. Feb 02 17:01
kentma1 wasabi: no, it’s not illegal – it’s in the terms. Feb 02 17:01
wasabi kentma1: One can withdraw a support contract. Feb 02 17:01
kentma1 wasabi:  have you read the EULA for Windows? Feb 02 17:01
kentma1 wasabi:  contracts can and are withdrawn every day. Feb 02 17:01
wasabi They are ended, not withdrawn. Feb 02 17:01
wasabi The option to not renew. Feb 02 17:01
kentma1 wasabi:  besides, how do you argue with a company which has gone out of business. Feb 02 17:01
wasabi Argue about what? Feb 02 17:01
kentma1 wasabi:  no, the licences are withdrawn, the equipment and software are “end of lifed” and teh RTU, that is the “right to use” is ended. Feb 02 17:02
wasabi Can you please point out where in te EULA they can choose to terminate it? Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz wasabi: security too? Feb 02 17:02
wasabi kentma1: that is absolutely incorrect. Feb 02 17:02
kentma1 wasabi:  I do this as a day job… Feb 02 17:02
wasabi kentma1: I challenge you to point out hte language in the EULA which says it. Feb 02 17:02
wasabi kentma1: As do I. Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz wasabi: does Eudora still bring security patches? Feb 02 17:02
wasabi schestowitz: Security patches are not ‘withdrawing a license’. Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz If your boxes ‘eat’ mail, can you fix it? Feb 02 17:02
wasabi Huge difference. Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz I mean, you have no source coce. Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz *code Feb 02 17:02
wasabi No, I can move to another solution. Feb 02 17:02
wasabi And the world does nto end. Feb 02 17:02
kentma1 wasabi:  then you understand about “end of life” and which companies offer “RTUs?” … I wonder… Feb 02 17:03
wasabi kentma1: End of life for a product does not revoke the license to use it. Feb 02 17:03
schestowitz Windows EULA can be terminated Feb 02 17:03
wasabi It is still legal to use purchased copies of Windows 95, for instance. Feb 02 17:03
schestowitz See it Feb 02 17:03
wasabi They can be terminated, but never one sidedly. Only if you don’t comply with the EULA. Feb 02 17:03
kentma1 wasabi:  yes, it does, in very many cases indeed.  This is what dongles are for, and why they have to be renewed. Feb 02 17:03
wasabi Well i won’t use software with a dongle. :0 Feb 02 17:04
kentma1 I appreciate that if you’ve only worked on Windows and Linux, your experience is probably limited, and you genuinely might not know about such things. Feb 02 17:04
wasabi sigh. Feb 02 17:04
kentma1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki… Feb 02 17:04
wasabi You have yet to point out the line in the EULA. Feb 02 17:04
wasabi (an EULA I just scanned, looking for what you claim) Feb 02 17:05
schestowitz YES!! Feb 02 17:05
schestowitz Database is back!!!!!!! Feb 02 17:05
kentma1 wasabi:  I’m just reading the eula bit about “activation” Feb 02 17:05
MinceR did your host say anything? Feb 02 17:05
schestowitz Let me inspect it before I touch the thing Feb 02 17:05
jose wasabi, the point you are both agreeing with is that you can be abandoned to software that can break, have security issues, and offer no way to migrate your data. Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz MinceR: not a word, no Feb 02 17:06
MinceR pff Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz That’s the worst Feb 02 17:06
jose schestowitz, great! Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz part Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz MinceR: it’s like when they monitor my connection Feb 02 17:06
wasabi It’s like claiming that when GM goes belly up, which they migth do, my car will turn off. Feb 02 17:06
wasabi it won’t. Feb 02 17:06
kentma1 wasabi:  and “validation” Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz They never tell you that they view whatever you do Feb 02 17:06
wasabi And there will still be a huge ‘support network’ of people willing to fix it. Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz One of the guys (sysadmin) who was friendly told me they had been spying on me. Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz Which was funny/scary Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz It’s like being privileged in a good way Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz But bad way too Feb 02 17:07
kentma1 wasabi:  it quite clearly states that “you may not be able to use or continue to use some features of the software” Feb 02 17:07
wasabi Sure, my warrenty might expire. Sure, I might have to repair it. But so? It still drives. Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz So wrt hosts, they fix, but don’t say what they did Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz They keep it to themselves Feb 02 17:07
kentma1 wasabi:  okay – black and white, it’s there. Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz If they messed up, they’d rather nobody knew Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz OK, be back here in a mo’ Feb 02 17:08
jose wasabi, see prior comment I made, but your car can turn off it that was part of the deal. it’s much easier to have software stop working.. interfaces and new software constantly make yesterdays software useless in many (not all) cases. Feb 02 17:08
wasabi kentma1: You’re taking narrow language in a EULA, and viewing it from an End Of World scenario. Which is Not useful. Feb 02 17:08
kentma1 wasabi:  not at all.  Furthermore, it also states that it can only be run on one instance of hardware, and that you can’t move it. Feb 02 17:08
wasabi kentma1: Your fear is predicated on a) MS failing b) MS failing and not ‘disabling activation’ Feb 02 17:08
schestowitz User binding was restored too Feb 02 17:08
wasabi Scenarios whose likely hood of happening are so highly unlikely as to be laughable. Feb 02 17:08
jose cars are standardized .. you have many different vendors and service providers for the parts.. MSware has no second source. Feb 02 17:09
kentma1 wasabi:  if a vendor goes out of business, you have no idea what will happen. Feb 02 17:09
wasabi if I can gain 15 years of profit out of using the software, and even if MS goes bankrupt… then what? OH WELL. I still gained 15 years of profit. Feb 02 17:09
wasabi And we move on. Feb 02 17:09
schestowitz OK, backup done, now the switchover *shuts eyes* Feb 02 17:09
kentma1 wasabi:  different question entirely. Feb 02 17:09
wasabi kentma1: Also, it does not say that. It says Mandatory Activation, blah blah, you have to activate. Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/ Feb 02 17:10
wasabi It specifically says you can move between hardware. Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz Okay, it seems to be all there… Feb 02 17:10
kentma1 wasabi:  I quoted the licence terms directly. Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz If you spot an oopsie, shout out before something breaks. Feb 02 17:10
kentma1 wasabi:  also, the licence quite clearly states that if you do not agree with the terms you are *not allowed to use the software*. Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz All the data seems to be there. Feb 02 17:11
wasabi kentma1: Where is that in the Windows EULA? Feb 02 17:11
schestowitz So we lost nothing, as expected Feb 02 17:11
kentma1 wasabi: right at the beginning. Feb 02 17:11
kentma1 “By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software.” Feb 02 17:11
wasabi Uh huh. Feb 02 17:11
kentma1 again, in black and white. Feb 02 17:11
kentma1 basically, you have no rights at all, and absolutely zero protection as and when Microsoft go out of business, or choose to stop activating the software. Feb 02 17:12
jose schestowitz, bn shows up fine over here (fwiw) Feb 02 17:12
schestowitz Thanks. Have a look around items that are recent, say if something funny happens please Feb 02 17:12
kentma1 wasabi:  and you aren’t allowed to stop the validation process, either: Feb 02 17:12
schestowitz Anyway, you might as well read them :-) Feb 02 17:12
kentma1 “As described below, using the software also operates as your consent to the transmission of certain computer information during activation, validation and for Internet-based services” Feb 02 17:12
wasabi kentma1: You’re being black/white. Life isn’t black/white. Feb 02 17:12
schestowitz I’m comparing data now Feb 02 17:13
schestowitz I have over 10 posts to makle Feb 02 17:13
kentma1 wasabi:  it’s a licence and I’m pointing out the terms in it. Feb 02 17:13
wasabi What will happen is MS will turn off the activationr equirement in 8 years. Just like they did for XP. Feb 02 17:13
kentma1 wasabi:  you can guess that man will be back on the moon in five years – it remains a guess. Feb 02 17:13
wasabi Life is a guess. Feb 02 17:13
wasabi We have actuaries for this. Feb 02 17:13
wasabi Risk management. Feb 02 17:13
wasabi There is no significant risk here. Feb 02 17:13
kentma1 wasabi:  not with open-source software, which is why it’s so good. Feb 02 17:13
wasabi I’m not saying open source isn’t good. Feb 02 17:14
kentma1 wasabi:  there is no risk of any of this with GPLed code, which is why GPLed code is so popular Feb 02 17:14
wasabi I’m just saying that you can’t play purely ideological games like this. Feb 02 17:14
kentma1 GPLed code cannot be “activated” or “deactivated” Feb 02 17:14
wasabi Tell that to Tivo. Feb 02 17:14
wasabi Heh. Feb 02 17:14
kentma1 GPLed code cannot be shut down or switched off, because you have access to the source code. Feb 02 17:14
wasabi The code is the least important part. Feb 02 17:14
kentma1 GPLv3 has been specifically created in order to close the loophole exploited by the Tivo people. Feb 02 17:14
twitter schestowitz, added Alchin quotes from Comes vs Microsoft to my patent extortion log.  It makes a very nice complement.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/… Feb 02 17:15
jose wasabi, the code explains how to get your data out. Feb 02 17:15
wasabi This is just so far out there as to be not useful. Feb 02 17:15
jose just post an issue on the proper forum (for the project) and you’d likely get a free answer. Feb 02 17:15
kentma1 GPLed code is a massive de-risk, particularly in recessionary times, when a lot of businesses will shut down. Feb 02 17:15
wasabi I can do that with all of the closed software I use too. :0 Feb 02 17:15
kentma1 wasabi:  no, you can’t. Feb 02 17:16
kentma1 wasabi:  we’ve just been through this. Feb 02 17:16
wasabi Sure I can. I can go to a hundred different IRC channels, and ask questions, and get answers. Feb 02 17:16
wasabi or forums. Feb 02 17:16
twitter wasabi, “not useful” describes most of what you say. Feb 02 17:16
wasabi Or local supprot folks. Feb 02 17:16
jose the answers require access to source code Feb 02 17:16
wasabi No they don’t. Feb 02 17:16
kentma1 wasabi:  with proprietary code, you have no rights to speak of, beyond an absolute bare minimum, and you remain at the behest of the vendor. Feb 02 17:16
jose proprietary formats and source code are kept closed for a reason. Feb 02 17:16
wasabi Can you point out something I have on my desktop right now that I cannot ‘get my data out of?’ Feb 02 17:17
kentma1 wasabi:  if the vendor goes bust, you have no choice but to move to something else. Feb 02 17:17
wasabi Yes. If an open source project closes down, it’s functioanlly the same. Feb 02 17:17
kentma1 wasabi:  no, it’s not, because the code is open-source. Feb 02 17:17
jose i don’t know what your desktop is like, but lose access to the software that created it and you’d be screwed. it happens all the time when you stop upgrading. Feb 02 17:17
wasabi But you don’t get it. Feb 02 17:17
wasabi I’m not going to hire a team of developers to take it over. Feb 02 17:17
kentma1 wasabi:  this conversation is a bit noddy, I’m sure you must know better than this. Feb 02 17:17
wasabi It would no longer pass cost/benefit. Feb 02 17:17
wasabi I would move onto something else. Feb 02 17:17
wasabi In either case, I would move on. Feb 02 17:18
kentma1 wasabi:  you have a choice when the software is GPLed, you have no choices when it’s proprietary. Feb 02 17:18
jose well if the data is not important, it doesn’t really matter what software you use. Feb 02 17:18
wasabi kentma1: fundamentally i think you guys are ‘wrong’. Feb 02 17:18
wasabi kentma1: And have failed to make any case, except to state things in ideologically black/white terms. Feb 02 17:18
wasabi Situations I have never seen happen in real life. Feb 02 17:18
kentma1 wasabi:  we’re talking about basic features of software licences here, they’re not complicated, you should be able to work this out on your own. Feb 02 17:18
twitter schestowitz, BN looks good from here. Feb 02 17:19
kentma1 wasabi:  I listed, earlier, various telco vendors which went out of business in the last 5 years. Feb 02 17:19
jose wasabi, there is nothing fundamentally complicated about data stored in closed formats Feb 02 17:19
twitter congrats on being back up without loss. Feb 02 17:19
wasabi kentma1: All of whose software Still Works. Feb 02 17:19
wasabi kentma1: And continues to work Right Now. Feb 02 17:19
wasabi kentma1: And all of which have migration paths away. Feb 02 17:19
kentma1 wasabi:  all the telcos who bought their equipment have no choide but to replace it, beacuse the RTUs are withdrawn. Feb 02 17:19
kentma1 wasabi:  the migration paths involve  the customers paying £millions. Feb 02 17:19
wasabi And? Is that bad? Feb 02 17:20
kentma1 wasabi:  because the platforms are proprietary, and teh customers have no way of getting their data back. Feb 02 17:20
jose it’s expensive.. i thought that was the point in the first place Feb 02 17:20
jose to save a few bucks Feb 02 17:20
jose or a few million Feb 02 17:20
kentma1 wasabi:  yes, paying £millions for something which is disappearing at the whim of a vendor is bad.  This is a pretty fundamental point of business. Feb 02 17:20
wasabi The questionr eally started because I dislike sharepoint. Feb 02 17:20
wasabi As in, I think it’s a crappy piece of software. Feb 02 17:20
kentma1 wasabi:  no, it started because you wanted a *copy* of sharepoint, which implies that you like it very much. Feb 02 17:21
jose but you don’t want to overspend on other proprietary software that might be better. Feb 02 17:21
wasabi Huh? Feb 02 17:21
wasabi I want something which solves teh same problem. Feb 02 17:21
kentma1 I pointed out that what you really need to do is understand the problem you’re trying to solve. Feb 02 17:21
jose at a low cost.. you said Feb 02 17:21
wasabi And where cost/benefit is near. Feb 02 17:21
schestowitz twitter: thanks Feb 02 17:21
schestowitz I have the DRM post coming. Feb 02 17:21
wasabi jose: I did not say low cost was a requirement. I mearly stated that some softare like this was expensive. Not that I was unwilling to buy it. Feb 02 17:22
kentma1 wasabi:  you have indicated that you have no documentation at all regarding the processes you are looking to automate, which is a gaping elephant trap. Feb 02 17:22
wasabi kentma1: And I’ve explained to you, the software I’m looking for would document the processes on it’s own. Feb 02 17:22
schestowitz twitter: make a good Vista7 log Feb 02 17:22
wasabi kentma1: That would be the entire point of buying said software. Feb 02 17:22
jose not a “requirement” but you would like to save bucks Feb 02 17:22
kentma1 wasabi:  you said that you have no development team, and you claim that “department heads” will be writing processes. Feb 02 17:22
schestowitz Microsoft wants to ram it though with PR. We need ammunition index.  I could use one too Feb 02 17:22
wasabi Yes, they will be deciding who does what work, in what order. Feb 02 17:22
kentma1 wasabi:  ergo:  you like sharepoint and you want a free copy of it. Feb 02 17:22
wasabi sigh. Feb 02 17:23
schestowitz wasabi: kentma1 is a respectable manager in a worldwide recognised company. Don’t talk to him like a kid. Feb 02 17:23
kentma1 wasabi:  sigh indeed.  incompetent process people are the bane of many a company. Feb 02 17:23
wasabi schestowitz: Great. You all have done nothing but the same to me. Feb 02 17:23
twitter schestowitz,  I’ve got one a couple you are familiar with.  the vista 7 hype log http://slashdot.org/~twitter/… and the failure log http://slashdot.org/~twitter/… Feb 02 17:24
kentma1 wasabi:  you dodge questions, you make sweeping statements which are frequently self-contradictory, and show a lack of experience in some areas which is a bit disturbing for what you’re claiming to be looking at.   You ask for proof, and when I provide it, you claim that I’m being “too black and white”. Feb 02 17:24
schestowitz main loss was no new posts (deliberate) and no news comments (I disabled them immediately) Feb 02 17:25
kentma1 wasabi:  I offered a very good tip for you – look at LAMP and automate your processes that way… it’s inexpensive, works exceedingly well, and the “client” software is a web browser. Feb 02 17:25
schestowitz wasabi: Microsoft too is at risk of being close to bailout Feb 02 17:25
schestowitz It enters debt Feb 02 17:25
schestowitz Its assets become irrelevant when its sofwtare is behind the competition, which it is Feb 02 17:25
wasabi Your solution is for me to move my development team to a piece of software that it is not beneficial for me to do. Feb 02 17:26
twitter I saw the new Vista 7 post.  Interesting put together of pieces of I saw elsewhere. Feb 02 17:26
wasabi Your solution is for me to waste my time. Feb 02 17:26
kentma1 wasabi:  furthermore, there is no risk of being “End of LIfed” Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz Ask DR-DOS.. Feb 02 17:26
wasabi Good luck with that. Feb 02 17:26
kentma1 wasabi:  you said that you had no development team. Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz It was ahead Feb 02 17:26
twitter wasabi, you are a waste of time. Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz But given better software (which is copyable), second best is worthless. Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz SharePoint.. can you trust it? Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz Like you could trust MSN music shop (now shut)? Feb 02 17:27
schestowitz Or PlayForSure? Feb 02 17:27
jose wasabi, if the problem is lack of skills, you can hire a single consultant. you can also start encouraging the team to look into lamp Feb 02 17:27
schestowitz Or many of the other services Microsoft just shut down? Feb 02 17:27
jose data lock-in is expensive Feb 02 17:27
kentma1 wasabi:  but most worrying of all, you’re looking to automate a process for which you have zero documentation.  You *will* fail, as any reasonable Vulcan would point out. Feb 02 17:27
wasabi Thanks for the non-advicel. :0 Feb 02 17:27
schestowitz twitter: I have a post on Vista 7 coming (another one) Feb 02 17:28
twitter cool Feb 02 17:28
kentma1 wasabi:  get your documentation, understand the problem, and then look for a solution.  This is very good advice, based on years of experience. Feb 02 17:28
schestowitz I have about 10 posts Feb 02 17:28
wasabi Goodbye. Feb 02 17:28
kentma1 wasabi:  if you want any more, then you can start paying me for consultancy. Feb 02 17:28
twitter cooler still. Feb 02 17:28
jose companies usually have well-defined processes that don’t change that frequently. Feb 02 17:29
jose wasabi.. Feb 02 17:29
twitter I’ve got some stuff to go do.  I hate having to crawl through wasabi trolls to get the news here in IRC. Feb 02 17:29
kentma1 jose:  well, they should be well defined, but in practice, so many things are so complex that local knowledge at the procedural level is hard to work out of the system. Feb 02 17:29
jose i heard of stories of how a small group of CS students created better solutions for their university at almost no cost than was managed with a huge peoplesoft installation costing many millions Feb 02 17:30
kentma1 jose:  I think it highly likely.  In my experience, simplicity is usually best. Feb 02 17:30
jose kentma1, i don’t think i was disagreeing. i didn’t mean standardized in all details across businesses, i meant within the particular group Feb 02 17:31
kentma1 My lamp system at work, which original cost about £30k fought off two attempts with budgets of over £500k to oust it… :-) Feb 02 17:31
kentma1 and it’s still working, nicely and quietly. Feb 02 17:31
twitter schestowitz, there was an interesting M$ patent breakdown I saw last night.  It promised more DRM in hardware for access to cloud computing.  If they go that way, Windows is more doomed than ever. Feb 02 17:31
jose it’s also alive.. no eol Feb 02 17:31
twitter Let me dig up the link before I go. Feb 02 17:32
jose you have all the source.. you can be replaced by another community player ;-) Feb 02 17:32
jose twitter, do you mean about the patent that was rejected… Feb 02 17:33
jose ms wants you to pay for very expensive machines whose hardware will all be locked down so you can be metered thoroughly Feb 02 17:33
jose they admit high acquisition costs Feb 02 17:34
jose supposedly costs can be lowered later.. but well, we know how that works. Feb 02 17:34
jose and the lack of control over everything on these drm’d machines is sickening Feb 02 17:34
jose for a device or certain data that is fine Feb 02 17:35
schestowitz twitter, kentma1, jose: wasabi has already states that he’s not here to support the channel/community Feb 02 17:39
schestowitz Same with benJIman Feb 02 17:40
jose that’ Feb 02 17:40
jose ok Feb 02 17:40
twitter better to ignore them and boot them when they flood Feb 02 17:40
schestowitz twitter: I did the other DRM docs, sorta Feb 02 17:40
schestowitz To the extent that they are relavent Feb 02 17:40
schestowitz Among those heaps of exhibits there’s particular stuff that needs attention but a lot of ‘noise’ too Feb 02 17:41
schestowitz The ones in the Wiki are better Feb 02 17:41
schestowitz With many more to be added Feb 02 17:41
twitter here’s what I saw, http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/colu… Feb 02 17:41
schestowitz I saw that Feb 02 17:41
twitter I’m not sure the patent will hold up but the FSM analysis was interesting. Feb 02 17:41
jose schestowitz, “relevant” has one of those tricky spellings.. i mention it because it’s an issue for me Feb 02 17:42
twitter It’s almost as irritating as the patent they got on a doc for palm computers. Feb 02 17:42
twitter How much more obvious and done can you get than hooking up your portable computer to better input and screen devices… and GWB gave them a patent.  nice. Feb 02 17:43
twitter well, bbl. Feb 02 17:43
twitter oh my one thing I saw on the way out.  Gate’s “education” initiative was not so educational after all http://news.slashdot.org/article… Feb 02 17:46
wasabi Well, I sort of came to the conclusion that there isn’t much of a community here. Just a dozen or so people somehow angry at MS and other vendors for some reason. Too emotional. Not enough solutions. Conclusion made, I guess. So, later. Feb 02 17:48
*wasabi (n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi) has left #Boycottnovell (“Ex-Chat”) Feb 02 17:48
schestowitz jose: the reader wants the beef. Short and to the point Feb 02 17:48
schestowitz The full exhibits or 30-slide presentations are too much to dig without pointers and remarks Feb 02 17:49
schestowitz One reader sent me a translation of an article from Italy Feb 02 17:49
schestowitz It’s gross what Microsoft is doing Feb 02 17:49
schestowitz Time for embargo Feb 02 17:49
jose wasabi (in case you read the logs when posted later on), irc BN visitors are a tiny fraction of the community. If you don’t like what you got, maybe you visited the wrong subcommunity forum. Feb 02 17:51
jose schestowitz, what beef? Feb 02 17:51
schestowitz Of the exhibits Feb 02 17:51
schestowitz Or the smoking gun/s Feb 02 17:51
trmanco hey Feb 02 17:51
jose what? Feb 02 17:51
trmanco http://search.creativecommons.org/ Feb 02 17:51
trmanco look at the sceenshot they have there :-P Feb 02 17:52
jose wasabi, data lock-in is expensive. That’s how proprietary vendors manage to spend so much money on development without leveraging the community. They pay high development costs so they need a way to pull that from clients. Feb 02 17:53
jose One of the most important things open source implies is that you can always get your data as modest costs. other benefits include …….. Feb 02 17:55
jose as -> at Feb 02 17:55
*r0ver (n=r0ver@ has joined #boycottnovell Feb 02 17:56
kentma1 wasabi:  this is what “vendor lock-in” is built on. Feb 02 17:58
kentma1 your data is locked by proprietary code, and you are at the behest of a proprietary vendor in order to get it back.  Once enough data is locked, you are over a barrel possibly to the value of £millions or more. Feb 02 17:59
kentma1 wasabi:  you only need look at the British Library as an example. Feb 02 17:59
kentma1 They’ve invested heavily in proprietary technology, which prevents many client devices from working at all, and requires the BL to pay their vendor whenever their vendor wants to be paid. Feb 02 18:00
kentma1 The BL has, essentially, no cost-effective way out of the mess it is now in.  It will have to write-off the investment in order to get onto something which is long-term free of lock-in. Feb 02 18:00
kentma1 This is what happens when you don’t understand the implications of licence conditions. Feb 02 18:01
jose microsoft builds products that are “fun” to use initially, but you end up making a mess and can’t easily migrate to anything else without taking a real loss. Feb 02 18:01
jose hansel and gretel candy fun! Feb 02 18:02
jose easy to enter.. tough to leave Feb 02 18:02
jose they have been warning of Microsoft for years. Feb 02 18:03
jose it’s all there since the Brothers Grimm Feb 02 18:03
schestowitz The host wrote back Feb 02 18:08
schestowitz “I have repaired the issue with the database ‘boycottn_wrdp1′. The permissions were set were to your database folder on the server once that was fixed I was able to run the check database and repair database tool in cpanel. This did find some errors and corrected all of them. Please let us know if this has not solved the issue since we do have a backup from February 1st at 2:24am EST time which we can restore from. “ Feb 02 18:08
schestowitz I wish I had told them about this problem earlier Feb 02 18:08
schestowitz kentma1: BL is just poisoned by cronies Feb 02 18:10
schestowitz They can make poor decisions for BL as long as MS execs take them to dinner at taxpayers’ expense (BL budget) Feb 02 18:10
*The_Mad_Hatter (i=63ee6975@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6f7d1353f796c18c) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 02 18:11
The_Mad_Hatter India is working on a $20.00 computer for classroom use, bet it won’t run Windows. Feb 02 18:13
The_Mad_Hatter http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/bu… Feb 02 18:13
*r0ver has quit (“Leaving.”) Feb 02 18:15
schestowitz Thanks. Feb 02 18:24
schestowitz No, it can’t run Windows Feb 02 18:24
schestowitz Unless Microsoft breathes life into WinCE or something. Feb 02 18:24
-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our client servers just dropped off the face of the planet. We’re looking into the issue and should hopefully have it back soon. Affected users just over 2,000. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day. Feb 02 18:25
*mitsuhiko (n=nnmitsuh@hammett.srv.pocoo.org) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 02 18:25
mitsuhiko oh boy.. Feb 02 18:25
schestowitz Hey Feb 02 18:25
MinceR oh hey Feb 02 18:26
schestowitz We lost no-one, eh? Feb 02 18:27
The_Mad_Hatter still here. Feb 02 18:29
The_Mad_Hatter did you see that link I posted? Feb 02 18:29
mitsuhiko schestowitz: are you actually believing what you’re writing? Feb 02 18:30
mitsuhiko or are you just a troll Feb 02 18:30
The_Mad_Hatter Roy isn’t the first to cover this crap. Ever hear of Andrew Grygus? Feb 02 18:32
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: yes, I got the link Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz I wrote about this earlier Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz It was gone when I restored to backup temporarily Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz It’s here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/01/a… Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz I reverted back to the up-to- date content Feb 02 18:34
The_Mad_Hatter Guess I missed it first time. I wish them luck on this project. Feb 02 18:36
MinceR http://tech.slashdot.org/article…. Feb 02 18:36
schestowitz Yes, it’s not new Feb 02 18:36
schestowitz Over a year ago the project was announced Feb 02 18:36
schestowitz Some called it a scam Feb 02 18:37
schestowitz MinceR: beat you to it. ;-) Feb 02 18:37
MinceR :) Feb 02 18:37
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: Roy’s the one how is actually harming the open source community Feb 02 18:40
mitsuhiko there might have been people before him, but they never were that aggressive Feb 02 18:40
The_Mad_Hatter I’m glad that I don’t run Windows any more. I pity the poor bastards who still are. Feb 02 18:40
The_Mad_Hatter Mitsuhiko – nah, Roy’s a real pussycat Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: have you actually ever developed software for linux? Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko i suppose the answer is no Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko or if you did and still support that initiative you are insane Feb 02 18:41
MinceR mitsuhiko: have you? Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko as a matter of fact, yes Feb 02 18:42
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – you should know some of the folks I do, you’d probably run screaming in terror Feb 02 18:42
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: about what? Feb 02 18:42
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – Microsoft haters. Feb 02 18:43
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – some of them even work for Microsoft. Have to admit I wonder what they do there. Feb 02 18:43
mitsuhiko hating microsoft Feb 02 18:44
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: there is valid criticism and there is FUD Feb 02 18:44
mitsuhiko roy spreads the latter Feb 02 18:44
jose can you give examples mitsuhiko so we can fix them? Feb 02 18:44
jose an awful lot is not fud Feb 02 18:45
mitsuhiko jose: fix what? Feb 02 18:45
jose the fud you say he is spreading Feb 02 18:45
jose he’s written maybe over a thousand posts (??). Which are the bad parts of these? Feb 02 18:45
mitsuhiko yes, he’s quite eager, isn’t he Feb 02 18:46
schestowitz mitsuhiko: : be specific Feb 02 18:46
mitsuhiko to bad he never talked to novell or microsoft in an unbiased manner Feb 02 18:46
schestowitz I did program for GNU Feb 02 18:46
schestowitz I build it on Linux mostly. Feb 02 18:46
MinceR mitsuhiko: we’re still waiting for examples Feb 02 18:46
MinceR or facts, for that matter Feb 02 18:46
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – tell us – where’s the fud? we are curious. Feb 02 18:46
mitsuhiko schestowitz: oh great. then you probably know the problems the system has Feb 02 18:47
mitsuhiko so then, instead of fighting mono, please provide solutions instead Feb 02 18:47
mitsuhiko what you managed to do is to make everybody hate mono Feb 02 18:47
jose roy is not perfect. maybe mitsuhiko meant that among the volumes of comments, some wrongful fud has snuck through. i doubt anyone would claim roy was perfect Feb 02 18:47
mitsuhiko and that seriously hurts everybody involved Feb 02 18:47
MinceR mitsuhiko: one of the solutions is native code Feb 02 18:48
jose why are people helping microsoft more easily keep linux+Foss marginalized Feb 02 18:48
MinceR it works pretty well, you know :> Feb 02 18:48
jose why are people using mono Feb 02 18:48
mitsuhiko MinceR: oh heck is it working well, incredible well Feb 02 18:48
jose use something besides mono .. simple Feb 02 18:48
mitsuhiko i just have to start evolution and see how well it works Feb 02 18:48
mitsuhiko jose: oh. like the broken python vm? Feb 02 18:49
MinceR especially when clueful people write it Feb 02 18:49
mitsuhiko or should we all adopt the jvm now? Feb 02 18:49
jose fork mono significantly.. simple (well, if devs put their mind to it) Feb 02 18:49
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – mono and .NET are both pieces of crap. Feb 02 18:49
MinceR (protip: the guys coding for microsoft aren’t clueful people) Feb 02 18:49
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: you clearly had a look at it Feb 02 18:49
jose mitsuhiko.. fork dotnet.. simple (if devs put their…) Feb 02 18:49
mitsuhiko MinceR: i hope i never have to work together with you in a team Feb 02 18:49
MinceR then we share one hope. Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko jose: your sentence either makes no sense or is incomplete Feb 02 18:50
MinceR i’d rather not work with idiots. Feb 02 18:50
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – yes, and I don’t like either. Utter garbage. Feb 02 18:50
jose mitsuhiko.. fork dotnet.. simple (if devs put their minds to it) Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: have you actually ever worked with .net? Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko jose: why should anyone fork .net? Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko what would be the point of it? Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko elaborate Feb 02 18:50
MinceR indeed, what Feb 02 18:50
MinceR .net is pointless :> Feb 02 18:50
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – yes. 3-4 years ago. I hated it. Feb 02 18:51
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: for what exactly? Feb 02 18:51
mitsuhiko MinceR: what do you use instead of .net? Feb 02 18:52
jose mitsuhiko, wrt patent risks.. follow the two links at the bottom of this comment http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure… Feb 02 18:52
mitsuhiko jose: i’m crapping my pants… Feb 02 18:52
jose mitsuhiko, see also this http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1… Feb 02 18:52
mitsuhiko i give a shit about patent risk Feb 02 18:52
MinceR mitsuhiko: mostly native code, python and script languages Feb 02 18:52
jose in the us that is a risk Feb 02 18:52
mitsuhiko jose: stepping out of my door is a risk, i could slip on the ice Feb 02 18:53
jose it’s so easy to fork mono (if devs put their minds to it), why take the risks? Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko because it would be pointless Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko mono works perfectly fine Feb 02 18:53
The_Mad_Hatter Mitsuhiko – of course you have to remember that I do command line stuff only Feb 02 18:53
jose mitsuhiko, a guaranteed patent violation across all mono apps for example is a little more serious if you are a large business using these apps Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko and if someone claims patent infringement the code in question can be swapped and no harm is done Feb 02 18:53
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – didn’t say it didn’t work, just that it’s garbage to work with. Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko jose: big business and linux, you’re dreaming Feb 02 18:53
jose mitsuhiko, what was your point of coming on here ..or of supporting mono, again? Feb 02 18:54
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: if you are only doing command line stuff i can’t take you serious for mono criticism Feb 02 18:54
mitsuhiko jose: no, about asking if you really believe in what you’re saying Feb 02 18:54
mitsuhiko i was hoping that website being a bad satiric blog Feb 02 18:54
jose mitsuhiko, you can’t swap out code unless you want to rework all applications and this may involve serious re-design in some case. Feb 02 18:55
MinceR mitsuhiko: the “code in question” is mono Feb 02 18:55
MinceR not that easy to swap Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko MinceR: no, it’s not Feb 02 18:55
MinceR elaborate. Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko MinceR: do you know how patents work? Feb 02 18:55
jose mitsuhiko, worse, if the violations are with things like aspdotnet, you will have tons of apps.. very high costs Feb 02 18:55
MinceR in fact i do Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko MinceR: if you do that should answer your question Feb 02 18:55
MinceR mitsuhiko: actually it doesn’t Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko MinceR: there is no patent on mono Feb 02 18:56
MinceR good luck “swapping out” a part a vital part of your app relies on Feb 02 18:56
mitsuhiko there are patents on language runtime systems and interfaces for web developement Feb 02 18:56
The_Mad_Hatter mitsuhiko – why can’t you take my criticism seriously? Feb 02 18:56
MinceR which happen to apply to .net Feb 02 18:56
MinceR which mono happens to replicate Feb 02 18:56
The_Mad_Hatter Mitsuhiko – and it is for what I’m doing. Feb 02 18:56
mitsuhiko The_Mad_Hatter: because if you are only doing cli applications you won’t have any problems Feb 02 18:56
mitsuhiko the cli is a dumb interface that just works Feb 02 18:57
mitsuhiko no fancy magic Feb 02 18:57
mitsuhiko (besides readline being licensed under gpl crap) Feb 02 18:57
jose mitsuhiko, the link i gave above has two links at the end.. read those two pieces (if you are a dev, you should not have too much trouble, though you may take a little while) Feb 02 18:57
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  26. Inter Partes Reviews (IPRs) Make the United States a Much Better Place for Innovation and Creation

    Jim Logan of Personal Audio LLC (a patent troll) suffers one final blow and other news of interest serves to show just how valuable IPRs have become in the US

  27. The EPO Has Become Extremely Corrupt and Dishonest

    Corruption at the EPO is becoming an easy-to-see epidemic/problem, even if much of the media turns a blind eye to it (partly because of the corruption that's aimed at controlling media coverage)

  28. Reader's Post: The Last Delusion of Benoît Battistelli Before His Departure on June 30th

    “The last delusion of Battistelli before his departure next June 30″ — an informal article contributed by a Techrights reader

  29. It Doesn't Take a Genius to See That Microsoft Still Attacks GNU/Linux With Patents to Make Billions of Dollars in 'Protection' Money

    Intellectual Ventures, Finjan, RPX, and other Microsoft-connected trolls cannot be countered by LOT Network and the likes of it (notably OIN); Microsoft continues to shrewdly distribute patents to trolls, offering 'protection' from them (for a fee) and pressuring OEMs to bundle Microsoft 'apps' or risk retaliatory patent lawsuitsIntellectual Ventures, Finjan, RPX, and other Microsoft-connected trolls cannot be countered by LOT Network and the likes of it (notably OIN); Microsoft continues to shrewdly distribute patents to trolls, offering 'protection' from them (for a fee) and pressuring OEMs to bundle Microsoft 'apps' or risk retaliatory patent lawsuits

  30. A Sham and a Scam: How Patent Extremists Continue to Promote a Mohawks and Allergan Ploy Against PTAB, Even After Oil States

    Watchtroll carries on promoting the 'case' of Allergan, which is grossly misusing tribal immunity to protect dodgy patents that it uses to deny access to medicine


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