IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 2nd, 2009 - Part 2

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2009-02-03 01:07:18 UTC
Modified: 2009-02-03 01:07:18 UTC

schestowitz	(Since this was posted I've had a number of emails pointing out that George has acquired quite a reputation for this sort of behaviour, sometimes in private mail and sometimes on public blogs. "	Feb 02 14:27
schestowitz	The Microsoft talking points receive platforms in ZDNet	Feb 02 14:27
schestowitz	Ou, Bought[sic], Foley, Caroll, etc.	Feb 02 14:28
schestowitz	Even the '*nix' guys are anti-Linux	Feb 02 14:28
oiaohm_	I am sorry sometimes the Unix guys are right.	Feb 02 14:28
schestowitz	Dana Blakenhorn never uses Linux and Murph (who keeps identity secret) just slings shots at Linux	Feb 02 14:28
oiaohm_	Linux does not beat Unix for everything yet.	Feb 02 14:28
schestowitz	You mean, Murphy?	Feb 02 14:29
oiaohm_	Solarias management tools are hard to beat.	Feb 02 14:29
oiaohm_	Remember Solarias was known for being the best of the best in the Unix's for configuration.	Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz	OK	Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz	But the point is..	Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz	ZDnet harbours FOSS/Linux-hostile writers	Feb 02 14:29
schestowitz	They tried to change this, but editorial control is showing	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	Same in CNET	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	Same bias	Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_	Yes of course.	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	The 'open source' guy slams Linux and promotes Macs	Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_	they were good stuff.	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	There are no Linux people there.	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	None.	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	IDG has just one..	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	SJVN	Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_	For advertising dollars.	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	Apple and Microsoft pay a lot to CNET	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	That's not resporting	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	That's journalistic prostitution	Feb 02 14:30
oiaohm_	Linux personal bating	Feb 02 14:30
schestowitz	Of course	Feb 02 14:31
schestowitz	"Kicks Linux to the Curb"	Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_	They would complain about it and other people would visit.	Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_	Its bit like Linux effect on game sales.	Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_	You sell to the 5 percent of the market that are Linux gammers.	Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_	Dobble you windows game sales.	Feb 02 14:31
schestowitz	People use console these days, some of the time	Feb 02 14:31
oiaohm_	Yes they knew what they were doing.	Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz	So the barrier to Linux wrt gaming is lower	Feb 02 14:32
oiaohm_	Problem is now Linux guys are making there writers look like idiots.	Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz	Who does?	Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz	Oh	Feb 02 14:32
oiaohm_	What really does not do there over all image look good.	Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz	Not theirs as in the Linux'	Feb 02 14:32
schestowitz	In BN we are openly critical of publications and biases	Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_	No other people writing answers.	Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_	Money is always a bias	Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz	Yes, motivating factor	Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_	You think MS has to pay to get bias.	Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz	Press needs to suppress this factor	Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz	Same in academia	Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_	Its traffic as well.	Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz	I see how professors strives to prove their 'party line'	Feb 02 14:33
oiaohm_	More traffic more advertisment dollars.	Feb 02 14:33
schestowitz	Or when sponsorships are inolved you are '/told/ what to prove, not what to study	Feb 02 14:34
oiaohm_	So highly volitale articals are good for money.	Feb 02 14:34
oiaohm_	As long as you don't get sued.	Feb 02 14:34
schestowitz	Lessig studies how pharmas use this to fake 'studies' and 'research'	Feb 02 14:34
oiaohm_	Think about newspapers not talking about IT then gossip mags.	Feb 02 14:34
schestowitz	When people claim that, say.. lots of water is good for you.. ask for proof	Feb 02 14:34
schestowitz	Don't accept anything	Feb 02 14:35
oiaohm_	Too much water will kill you as some firefighters here found out.	Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz	I could find that Lessig post	Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz	He made a good presentation about it with examples too	Feb 02 14:35
oiaohm_	I mean by drinking it not drowning too.	Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz	About global warming disinfo and nutritional recommendation lies that kill people.	Feb 02 14:35
schestowitz	There's also stuff like this: http://www.bermanexposed.org	Feb 02 14:36
oiaohm_	Global warming is far more risky if my model is right.	Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz	More riskt than what?	Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz	Sure, it's risky	Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz	It's risky to Exxon's business :-)	Feb 02 14:36
schestowitz	Like Microsoft needs DRM for security... of its profit	Feb 02 14:37
oiaohm_	My model not perfect but my model is working on that ICE is reducing its effect.	Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz	Look back at research for the 90s	Feb 02 14:37
oiaohm_	So global ice disappers then it raise a lot quicky.	Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz	Before the Corporations polluted the pull with counter 'arguments'	Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz	Then the theme changes	Feb 02 14:37
schestowitz	Not whether we lose ice	Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz	But whether /humans/ cause it	Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_	There are two effects blancing either other too.	Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_	Global warming and Global dimming.	Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz	But that's a simple equation	Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_	Global dimming stops evaporation.	Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz	Yes.	Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz	In turn.. same result	Feb 02 14:38
oiaohm_	Also has a cooling effects.	Feb 02 14:38
schestowitz	Population grew by a factor of like 3 in one century	Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_	So if dimming alone was working we should be colder.	Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz	People forget this	Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz	Also in dustrialisation	Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz	*industrialisation	Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_	The sun and sea provides us with more than enough power of we can extract it.	Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_	Solar panels are the biggest joke of all.	Feb 02 14:39
schestowitz	So people use scales of time inapporpiately... comparing times of lumber and no production with gasoline to a society of boxes and mechinery	Feb 02 14:39
oiaohm_	Solar panels take more power to make than what they provide in there complet life in most cases.	Feb 02 14:40
schestowitz	I think so too, but depending on scale of time.	Feb 02 14:40
schestowitz	It's a long-term investment	Feb 02 14:40
oiaohm_	No doing the long term maths.	Feb 02 14:40
schestowitz	The only solution to global warning = much smaller population	Feb 02 14:40
oiaohm_	Solar panels have a max operational life.	Feb 02 14:41
schestowitz	control birth or die	Feb 02 14:41
schestowitz	Like in Africa..	Feb 02 14:41
oiaohm_	Working on that the Solar Panel last that long most cases it will never pay back the power that made it.	Feb 02 14:41
oiaohm_	Damaged panels and failed panels make the loss worse.	Feb 02 14:41
oiaohm_	Really you should think of Solar Panels as light batteries.	Feb 02 14:42
oiaohm_	Only Solar Panels that pay back in there operation live have mirrors focusing light onto them.	Feb 02 14:42
oiaohm_	Really global warming does not need smaller popultation.	Feb 02 14:43
oiaohm_	The world does have enough power for 12 times the current global poplutation that is clean.	Feb 02 14:43
schestowitz	WTF? Microsoft Update Slips In a Firefox Extension < http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=... >	Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_	Yep	Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_	Microsoft is getting desperate	Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz	Isn't this illegal? It's worse than Apple's Safari shove-in.	Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz	No, Microsoft is getting more criminal	Feb 02 14:44
trmanco	schestowitz, I told you that MS was pushing crap into Firefox	Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz	It takes over people's PCs	Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz	The EULA permits it	Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_	Its a sign that MS is losing browser war.	Feb 02 14:44
trmanco	.NET crap	Feb 02 14:44
schestowitz	But the competition authorities need to step in	Feb 02 14:44
oiaohm_	If they want .net to take off they cannot stay execulsve with it any more.	Feb 02 14:45
trmanco	they won't	Feb 02 14:45
trmanco	becasue it is Micro~	Feb 02 14:45
oiaohm_	EU might	Feb 02 14:45
oiaohm_	EU sue MS get dollars	Feb 02 14:45
schestowitz	Not good enough	Feb 02 14:47
schestowitz	Embargo would actually work	Feb 02 14:47
schestowitz	The Microsoft Cult, however, attacks the Commission using its European multinational gangs and lobbyists	Feb 02 14:47
oiaohm_	http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9416 << My god Zdnet guys are getting brain rot.	Feb 02 14:48
oiaohm_	Unify Mac and Linux would be a really bad long term problem for MS.	Feb 02 14:50
MinceR	it would be a really bad long term problem for linux, too	Feb 02 14:50
MinceR	as long as apple behaves the way it does	Feb 02 14:50
schestowitz	they get paid per comment/view	Feb 02 14:51
schestowitz	fast	Feb 02 14:51
schestowitz	fact	Feb 02 14:51
*schestowitz eats, type w/ one hand		Feb 02 14:51
MinceR	apple isn't willing to play nice with anyone	Feb 02 14:51
MinceR	or to leave any control to anyone but themselves	Feb 02 14:51
oiaohm_	Funny enough depends where.	Feb 02 14:51
MinceR	especially not to the users	Feb 02 14:51
schestowitz	provocation= more comments= more monet	Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_	Apple with cups plays fairly nice with the reset of the open source world.	Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_	Some sections of apple don't play nice with the open source world.	Feb 02 14:52
schestowitz	no	Feb 02 14:52
MinceR	see what they did to khtml	Feb 02 14:52
schestowitz	many	Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_	Remember Apple could not get printer drivers.	Feb 02 14:52
MinceR	the code had to be pried out of them	Feb 02 14:52
oiaohm_	So had to play nice with open source and become good.	Feb 02 14:52
MinceR	oiaohm_: so they bought the guys who developed cups	Feb 02 14:52
MinceR	that's pretty commercial-looking to me	Feb 02 14:53
MinceR	we're lucky they didn't close the project	Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_	They could not buy them all.	Feb 02 14:53
schestowitz	perlow trool	Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_	They bough the keys.	Feb 02 14:53
schestowitz	gah	Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_	MinceR: if Apple needs something bad enough they do play ball.	Feb 02 14:53
oiaohm_	with khtml there were not in a location where they needed to play ball.	Feb 02 14:54
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/26...	Feb 02 14:54
schestowitz	^linksL apple vs foss	Feb 02 14:54
schestowitz	many links	Feb 02 14:54
oiaohm_	Remember I said some sections are friendly to Foss	Feb 02 14:54
oiaohm_	Not all.	Feb 02 14:54
MinceR	oiaohm_: so they don't play ball if they aren't forced to	Feb 02 14:55
MinceR	which means they aren't friendly	Feb 02 14:55
MinceR	which means the FLOSS community needs none of their influence	Feb 02 14:55
oiaohm_	But when forced by there needs they are masively friendly.	Feb 02 14:55
MinceR	what apple does is only good for apple and nobody else	Feb 02 14:55
MinceR	there's no such thing as being forced to be friendly	Feb 02 14:55
oiaohm_	So to a lot of other companies that give code to open source.	Feb 02 14:55
MinceR	there's only faking friendliness as long as you have to.	Feb 02 14:55
oiaohm_	There is a difference.	Feb 02 14:56
oiaohm_	At first with cups they faked friendly ness.	Feb 02 14:56
oiaohm_	Then they worked out that it was making there life hard with holding features.	Feb 02 14:56
schestowitz	OK, back ti typing normally	Feb 02 14:56
MinceR	see what apple did to strace to keep the stupidest of users from using it on their DRM	Feb 02 14:57
oiaohm_	So now they are moving forwards with a completely common printer stack across all posix like platforms.	Feb 02 14:57
schestowitz	Apple talks about OSS only when the cameras are on (PR)	Feb 02 14:57
MinceR	(it shows their contempt for non-apple developers, too)	Feb 02 14:57
MinceR	see how they allow developers, especially FLOSS into the crapphone	Feb 02 14:57
schestowitz	Allow?	Feb 02 14:58
MinceR	they aren't moving forward with that, they've bought it when it was already ready	Feb 02 14:58
oiaohm_	Basically more interaction forced between Apple and Floss will see more changes.	Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz	They kick some out	Feb 02 14:58
MinceR	yes, detrimental changes	Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz	oiaohm_: I used to think the same	Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz	Apple has hubris	Feb 02 14:58
oiaohm_	Not detrimental. Remember cups was detrimental at first.	Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz	And it was never about FOSS	Feb 02 14:58
schestowitz	Woz mocks FOSS	Feb 02 14:58
oiaohm_	Ie apple only alterations to do color management.	Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz	They are like Redmond some of them... but one was less criminal and thus less 'successful'	Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz	That's the market rule to them	Feb 02 14:59
oiaohm_	So keeping apple ahead of everything else not Apple.	Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz	Total DRM/iTunes/whatever domination	Feb 02 14:59
oiaohm_	Apple over time worked out that was bad for them.	Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz	They are driven by greedy investors	Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz	Ethics don't matter	Feb 02 14:59
oiaohm_	Since drivers developed for Linux would not work right on there cups stack.	Feb 02 14:59
schestowitz	Fair competition... neither.	Feb 02 15:00
oiaohm_	Same happened with khtml too.	Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz	And Apple probably exploits FOSS more than Mcirosoft these days	Feb 02 15:00
oiaohm_	They took it altered it then found it hard to maintain.	Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz	Microsoft just wants FOSS to be on Windows	Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz	Apple actually pulls FOSS and make closed products from that	Feb 02 15:00
schestowitz	Like "thanks for the good labour, we'll have some of dat"	Feb 02 15:00
oiaohm_	Apple is finding more and more that not giving back has prices.	Feb 02 15:01
schestowitz	Giving back is one thingf	Feb 02 15:01
schestowitz	But if you give back Webit and then use mallware tactic to shove Safari, that's no use	Feb 02 15:01
schestowitz	That's the equivalent of me giving back the farmer the pit of the Apple that I eat and say "here, chew this.."	Feb 02 15:02
oiaohm_	schestowitz: I did not say changing Apple way would be fast.	Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz	Apple is part of a bigger problrm	Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz	This includes DRM	Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz	FSF tries to reform Apple in that resgard	Feb 02 15:02
schestowitz	*regard	Feb 02 15:02
oiaohm_	Reform has to come from customers.	Feb 02 15:02
oiaohm_	If no one buys DRM media why would you try to sell it.	Feb 02 15:03
schestowitz	"SQL Databases4/Ã¢ËÅ¾.. "	Feb 02 15:03
schestowitz	Too bad I only get access to 3 of them... where's the host...?	Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz	oiaohm_: people don't function this way	Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz	They don't know what DRM means	Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz	I speak to people, they know nothing about it	Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz	They are shown shiny iXXX and told to by the s* -- whatever rules apply	Feb 02 15:04
schestowitz	Prying on ignorance.	Feb 02 15:05
schestowitz	Preying	Feb 02 15:05
oiaohm_	You said the problem.	Feb 02 15:05
schestowitz	http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/0... (One Million SSL Sites on the Web)	Feb 02 15:05
oiaohm_	Vista put some light in the darkness of ignorance	Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz	It did, maybe.	Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz	People are still too silly to generalise	Feb 02 15:06
oiaohm_	we need a major DRM provider failure cutting people off to wake them up about DRM.	Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz	Unless they are reformed, but this comes from schooling, which is deformed by agendas	Feb 02 15:06
schestowitz	People blame the Microsoft brand, not the art of deception, aka marketing	Feb 02 15:07
schestowitz	We can only hope that more people start asking question... like... WHY do these people lose their jobs... and WHY... we entered Iraw	Feb 02 15:07
oiaohm_	Yep they are to ignorance to see the difference yet.	Feb 02 15:07
schestowitz	The questions are very simple and obvious, but they are not delivered to the public... Bill O'Reilly and such..	Feb 02 15:08
oiaohm_	Education what you are doing is part of the way forward.	Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz	It doesn't pay	Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz	Try to say the truth as a teacher	Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz	The business community will go up the neck of the school	Feb 02 15:08
oiaohm_	Now depends.	Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz	This is something I not only read about but saw too	Feb 02 15:08
oiaohm_	Its bit like saying Linux kernel does not pay.	Feb 02 15:08
schestowitz	People are rewarded for conformism	Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_	Doing that it self does not pay.	Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_	Yet support and other things pay.	Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz	And pressure by peers/superiors or even students that are brainwash to mock and gag the truthtellers	Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_	Do you have a t-shirt with you logo on ?	Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz	That's the good art of propagada	Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz	How to dissent truth	Feb 02 15:09
oiaohm_	There is more than 1 way to make money.	Feb 02 15:09
schestowitz	Me? Logo?	Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz	No. Just company brands.. clothing companies	Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz	But Linux is different	Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz	It's joint development	Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz	Same with Apache	Feb 02 15:10
schestowitz	It's a pool of code..	Feb 02 15:10
oiaohm_	The Icon you use on your Web page.	Feb 02 15:11
oiaohm_	I classed that as your Logo.	Feb 02 15:11
schestowitz	What the folks from Redmond would conveniently descrtbe as "dangrous" and "Communism"	Feb 02 15:11
schestowitz	What about the logo?	Feb 02 15:11
oiaohm_	You said it don't pay. What I was getting at what can we buy to give you money.	Feb 02 15:12
schestowitz	MEPIS for a big fan (but doesn't SJVN use GNOME now?): http://practical-tech.com/operating-sys...	Feb 02 15:12
oiaohm_	Logo on pens and stuff allows people to give yet fell happy they got something for it also can advertise you.	Feb 02 15:13
oiaohm_	So all round win for education.	Feb 02 15:13
schestowitz	Yes, I did this as a youngster in Junior Achievements	Feb 02 15:13
schestowitz	But that's a separate thing	Feb 02 15:14
schestowitz	To be frank, I don't know how to resolve these socio-economic issue and like many others I am sometimes better at criticising the broken	Feb 02 15:14
schestowitz	*issues	Feb 02 15:14
oiaohm_	Lot of things I can explain how to fix.	Feb 02 15:15
oiaohm_	The money stuff up at moment is a little too random to know enough to pick best path.	Feb 02 15:15
oiaohm_	Giving out money normally don't slove socio-economic problems.	Feb 02 15:16
oiaohm_	Giving out information is normally the solution. ie the old one give some a loaf of bread feed them for a day. Teach them how to make bread might fead them for a life time. Its still true today.	Feb 02 15:17
schestowitz	LOL http://www.openxml.info/	Feb 02 15:17
schestowitz	Alberto Barrionuevo linked to it (FFII)	Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz	Give money to /whom/?	Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz	Sometimes these things make matters worse	Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz	Like giving gunships as 'gifts' to trouble countries	Feb 02 15:19
schestowitz	Gunships kill people; things like factories can enslave people with low wages and poor conditions. So it's really not a matter of monet	Feb 02 15:20
schestowitz	RMS told me too (and I was stunned at the time) that a company like MySQL needs to think about social issues before money. I asked about the dual-licensing.	Feb 02 15:21
schestowitz	But it's very true that part of this quation must account for other effects that play a role.	Feb 02 15:21
oiaohm_	I did not say giving out information was always a helpful fix.	Feb 02 15:21
schestowitz	Other intellectuals like RMS hold the same position, increasingly so amid these times.	Feb 02 15:21
schestowitz	Things will get a lot crazier where the already-poor are reduced to gutter level	Feb 02 15:22
oiaohm_	Give someone the means to make a bomb they can use that against you.	Feb 02 15:22
schestowitz	And they have many reasons to be angry	Feb 02 15:22
oiaohm_	USA could find it self in cilival war again.	Feb 02 15:22
schestowitz	I've just caught up with the rest of the message	Feb 02 15:23
schestowitz	Information with regards to methods is another thing	Feb 02 15:23
schestowitz	Like teaching people about farming or .. well, even about safe sex.	Feb 02 15:23
schestowitz	But the information I'm referring to is the understanding of the society	Feb 02 15:24
oiaohm_	Also teaching people how to spot a conn job.	Feb 02 15:24
schestowitz	heh. I though you said cron job	Feb 02 15:24
oiaohm_	Something we are bady lacking in global education systems.	Feb 02 15:24
oiaohm_	Reason why I though about the trivia game.	Feb 02 15:25
oiaohm_	There is never just one way to teach a skill.	Feb 02 15:26
oiaohm_	Catch you around	Feb 02 15:26
*oiaohm_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))		Feb 02 15:26
schestowitz	Lots of snow here today.... http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/7... Comcast testing new free Wi-Fi service < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/... >	Feb 02 15:39
schestowitz	Ha! "Authentication required!" http://ip-watch.org/subscribers/subscri... Livin' in the past	Feb 02 15:43
schestowitz	http://www.ciol.com/News/Interviews/Paten... " How many patents do you have in India? Sorry, in sync with the IBM's globally integrated collaborative work culture and strongly aligned processes, we don't reveal country specific numbers." What an 'OPEN' company......	Feb 02 15:47
schestowitz	This is so annoying	Feb 02 16:01
schestowitz	Still no db	Feb 02 16:01
schestowitz	I've just mailed them again..	Feb 02 16:01
schestowitz	It's like they don't even take a look at it..	Feb 02 16:02
schestowitz	"I am the writer of boycottnovell.com, which you host. Yesterday morning the domain had one of its mysql databases, boycottn_wrdp1, go out of reach (gone after a MySQL server reboot). I need this resorted immediately as the site depends on this database. My co-editor Shane Coyle (registered with you as web-prophet) cannot resolve this from his end, either. This needs an admin to check what happened the the database to restore it.	Feb 02 16:02
schestowitz	Please mail me back re: status ASAP."	Feb 02 16:02
schestowitz	Wow! So much damage contol from the Microsoft press	Feb 02 16:11
schestowitz	The theme is: Microsoft hires despite layoffs.	Feb 02 16:11
schestowitz	About 5 publication, mostly those in Microsoft's pockers	Feb 02 16:11
schestowitz	*pckets	Feb 02 16:12
schestowitz	http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/conten... "Microsoft: Layoffs for Some, Visas for Others"	Feb 02 16:12
*jose (n=jose@98.64.59.215) has joined #boycottnovell		Feb 02 16:14
schestowitz	Paedophiles could target kids using Microsoft's Xbox 360 < http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/midlands-news... >	Feb 02 16:15
schestowitz	Paedophiles could also target kids 'using' playground	Feb 02 16:16
schestowitz	Paedophiles could also target kids 'using' phone	Feb 02 16:16
jose	.. or using a house made out of candy	Feb 02 16:20
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans...	Feb 02 16:21
MinceR	mmmm, candy	Feb 02 16:21
MinceR	Hans Grosse and Greta Grosse? :>	Feb 02 16:21
schestowitz	Maybe they (IWF) should block Wikipedia for embracing pedophelia...	Feb 02 16:22
schestowitz	If the host doesn't reply by the end of the day, maybe I'll just go ahead and throw away the broken DB.	Feb 02 16:23
schestowitz	At least we get a lot of visitors still.... over a quarter of a million hits today even without any new posts since 30 hours ago	Feb 02 16:23
schestowitz	Uh oh!!	Feb 02 16:24
schestowitz	http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/02/two-microsoft-v... Two Microsoft Veterans Leap to Openbravo, Open Source Movement	Feb 02 16:24
schestowitz	More poison... just wait until they push for Windows Server.	Feb 02 16:25
schestowitz	In the news: references to Vista: 3 Windows 7: 20 , i.e. they moved on to vapourware	Feb 02 16:28
wasabi	Those guys should have some awesome success. Navison made an amazing product.	Feb 02 16:35
wasabi	And they did good work on it at MS. Can't wait to see what Openbravo turns into.	Feb 02 16:35
kentma1	Microsoft will continue to use the old marketing methods... it's entirely ingrained in their culture.	Feb 02 16:37
kentma1	vapourware has been almost as successful as windows has been for them :-)	Feb 02 16:37
schestowitz	Microsoft moles are hijacking vmware: http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/28/software-vir... (Bringing Microsoft To VMware)	Feb 02 16:37
kentma1	it won't work on the long-run. Open source, at least with the right licence, is un-corruptible	Feb 02 16:38
kentma1	this is why GPLv3 was of such great import.	Feb 02 16:38
schestowitz	VMware is proprietary	Feb 02 16:38
wasabi	Hey, since you guys are so rabidly anti-MS, maybe I might have luck just asking this here. Looking for a solution which is comparable to SharePoint: form based business process workflow. Would love an open source solution that was decent... but have not found one.	Feb 02 16:38
schestowitz	Or are you talking about Vista7?	Feb 02 16:38
kentma1	I know, but there are always going to be open-source solutions for middleware which cannot be corrupted was my point.	Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz	wasabi: that would go well with youu Windows Mobile.	Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz	*your	Feb 02 16:39
wasabi	schestowitz: It was a serious question.	Feb 02 16:39
wasabi	Thanks for your unhelpful answer, though. :0	Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz	This is assimilation	Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz	Like Mono	Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz	It serves MS	Feb 02 16:39
wasabi	What is? I asked you for an open source alternative.	Feb 02 16:39
kentma1	wasabi: sharepoint?	Feb 02 16:39
wasabi	Did you read my question?	Feb 02 16:39
schestowitz	They turn rivals into subsidiaries	Feb 02 16:40
kentma1	is this a joke, or is it a serious question?	Feb 02 16:40
wasabi	I seriously want an open source solution. SharePoint sucks.	Feb 02 16:40
wasabi	But it is the best I've found.	Feb 02 16:40
kentma1	wasabi: what other solutions have you considered?	Feb 02 16:40
wasabi	Only closed things. Big stuff. From people like Lazerfish.	Feb 02 16:40
wasabi	I have not found an open source solution which is comparable, yet.	Feb 02 16:40
kentma1	wasabi: what problem are you trying to solve? These difficulties usually start with trying to emulate a particular solution, rather than trying to fix a problem.	Feb 02 16:41
wasabi	I am trying to automate business workflow. That is, the processes people go through in their day to day activities.	Feb 02 16:41
jose	wasabi, it would help us if you listed what you have looked at in the foss world and why you thought it fell short	Feb 02 16:41
kentma1	ah, we use databases for that.	Feb 02 16:41
wasabi	jose: I haven't found anything.	Feb 02 16:41
kentma1	jose: he hasn't looked at anything open-source.	Feb 02 16:41
wasabi	The idea is you use an interface to design forms, and hook those forms together on a GUI that lets you connect actions to other actions. This makes your business self-documenting.	Feb 02 16:42
wasabi	When person files form, task is made for othe rperson. When other person finishes task, task is made for other person.	Feb 02 16:42
wasabi	Workflow.	Feb 02 16:42
kentma1	wasabi - what actually happens is people create what they "think" is happening, and you end up with a mess.	Feb 02 16:42
kentma1	The best solution to workflow we've ever done was based on a database.	Feb 02 16:42
wasabi	that's a non answer.	Feb 02 16:43
wasabi	a database is not an application.	Feb 02 16:43
kentma1	nothing complex, very simple, works extremely well.	Feb 02 16:43
kentma1	wasabi: it's the answer we used, to great effect.	Feb 02 16:43
wasabi	So you wrote your own software?	Feb 02 16:43
kentma1	no, we used an existing database.	Feb 02 16:43
wasabi	Of?	Feb 02 16:43
kentma1	data?	Feb 02 16:43
wasabi	... and who wrote the schema?	Feb 02 16:43
wasabi	And who wrote the apps people would use to put data into the database?	Feb 02 16:44
kentma1	apps? we just had a web front-end - nothing complicated. This kind of thing is done day in and day-out with the LAMP stack.	Feb 02 16:44
wasabi	Uh huh. Lets pretend I don't have a development team willing to take that on, hence why I'm looking for a product of some sort.	Feb 02 16:44
kentma1	wasabi: how big a company are you doing this for?	Feb 02 16:45
wasabi	500+ users?	Feb 02 16:45
jose	wasabi, i think you are in the wrong forum.. as a foss vendor for their brochure	Feb 02 16:45
wasabi	jose: I know I'm in the wrong forum. I stated that up front.	Feb 02 16:45
jose	"ask a foss vendor...."	Feb 02 16:45
kentma1	wasabi: then you shouldn't be on your own. You need to do this properly.	Feb 02 16:45
wasabi	This is obviously the wrong forum. :0	Feb 02 16:45
kentma1	I think you're the wrong person for the job... unless you plan on leaving something unmaintainable behind you.	Feb 02 16:46
wasabi	What i was trying to say is: "I an evaluating share point, because it does all this; but I don't like sharepoint, so would like an alternative, are any of you aware of one?"	Feb 02 16:46
jose	for enough users, you probably should invest in some sort of development "team".	Feb 02 16:46
kentma1	jose: that was my point.	Feb 02 16:46
wasabi	You guys don't really have any idea.	Feb 02 16:46
wasabi	I find it interesting how you have somehow judged my development experience from this conversation.	Feb 02 16:46
kentma1	wasabi: I think your solution is risky.	Feb 02 16:47
wasabi	Which solution?	Feb 02 16:47
wasabi	I have not proposed one. I have asked for suggestions.	Feb 02 16:47
kentma1	wasabi: a one-man band.	Feb 02 16:47
wasabi	And where have I mentioned that?	Feb 02 16:47
kentma1	" Uh huh. Lets pretend I don't have a development team willing to take that on, hence why I'm looking for a product of some sort."	Feb 02 16:47
wasabi	I don't have a development team "willing to take that one."	Feb 02 16:48
wasabi	I do have a development team.	Feb 02 16:48
wasabi	I also don't have a development team willing to write a kernel.	Feb 02 16:48
kentma1	You are trying to automate a process, the real issue here is about what process you're trying to automate.	Feb 02 16:48
wasabi	So I choose to find that elsewhere.	Feb 02 16:48
wasabi	Ad I've already told you. General purpose business workflow.	Feb 02 16:48
kentma1	wasabi: processes are the lifeblood of businesses. This is not something to solve as a one man band that you then walk away from.	Feb 02 16:49
wasabi	Which very expensive solutions exist for. Solutions I'm not all too happy with; and since you guys seem to Hate things like SharePoint, I'd assume you had something better in mind.	Feb 02 16:49
wasabi	But I seem to have been wrong.	Feb 02 16:49
kentma1	there is no such thing as "general purpose workflow", though, all businesses have their own processes.	Feb 02 16:49
wasabi	yes, there is.	Feb 02 16:49
wasabi	All businesses can be rendered down to a set of person-person or person-client interactions that have a set of rules and tasks.	Feb 02 16:50
wasabi	Software exists to make modeling that as easy as drag n drop.	Feb 02 16:50
kentma1	The best solution is to work out what you're trying to do, and then use something standard, and maintainable, such as a lamp stack.	Feb 02 16:50
wasabi	You're insane. :0	Feb 02 16:50
kentma1	no, I've just done this a lot, and I understand where the gaping elephant traps are.	Feb 02 16:50
kentma1	mistake no1: pick solution before you understand problem.	Feb 02 16:51
wasabi	As do I. The biggest trap is assuming you can manage a software development project of that size, when existing solutions exist.	Feb 02 16:51
wasabi	If a solution already exists, every second you spend reinventing it is a waste of a second.	Feb 02 16:51
kentma1	nope, the biggest trap is picking a solution before you understand the problem.	Feb 02 16:51
kentma1	How much process documentation already exists?	Feb 02 16:51
wasabi	And I already understand the problem, and have even mentioned it to you.	Feb 02 16:51
kentma1	How much detail do you have?	Feb 02 16:51
wasabi	http://www.laserfiche.com/archive_products/avante.html	Feb 02 16:51
jose	wasabi you assume that these general products will solve all your particular needs	Feb 02 16:51
wasabi	They will.	Feb 02 16:51
kentma1	haha!	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	But they are expensive. Hence I am looking for alternatives.	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	Openbravo is the kind of thing I'm looking for.	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	But for workflow, not ERP.	Feb 02 16:52
kentma1	what workflow? How much process documentation do you already have?	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	I've told you, the documentation should be in the software.	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	So we don't need external documentation.	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	Self-documenting.	Feb 02 16:52
kentma1	wasabi: now you look like someone who's never automated a process at all.	Feb 02 16:52
wasabi	You know, using computers to make jobs easier. :0	Feb 02 16:53
wasabi	kentma1: You have no idea.	Feb 02 16:53
kentma1	only if you understand what the job is, and you appear to have no idea what it is.	Feb 02 16:53
wasabi	kentma1: Do I need to know the specifies of the company to shop for a CRM system?	Feb 02 16:53
kentma1	do you have any documentation about the process you're trying to automate?	Feb 02 16:53
wasabi	Or to shop for an ERP system?	Feb 02 16:53
kentma1	wasabi: if you're automating, yes, you need to know every single tiny tiny step.	Feb 02 16:53
wasabi	No. Because they are packaged.	Feb 02 16:53
wasabi	They are packaged solutions which are designed to be flexible.	Feb 02 16:54
kentma1	wasabi: nope, they're not - they're unique to every situatino.	Feb 02 16:54
wasabi	Oh man. That's not true at all.	Feb 02 16:54
wasabi	Customer-client relations are super well-understood.	Feb 02 16:54
wasabi	ERP is super wel understood.	Feb 02 16:54
kentma1	if you want a CRM package, then use one.	Feb 02 16:54
kentma1	you're talking about process automation.	Feb 02 16:54
wasabi	I am trying to draw an analogy.	Feb 02 16:54
schestowitz	Tasks don't need to be complex to solve... or to use complex software	Feb 02 16:55
wasabi	Packaged software exists for both problem domains.	Feb 02 16:55
kentma1	You appear to have no documentation about a process in use by around 500 people that you're going to automate as a one-man band leaving behind nobody who knows how to maintain the system. You'll put them out of business.	Feb 02 16:55
schestowitz	Just because some O/S like Vista is 'big' (in terms of GB) doesn't mean it'll improve staff output.. it'll impede itr	Feb 02 16:55
wasabi	schestowitz: I have 500+ users. I want these users to be working from a list of tasks telling them what to do next. Each time they are finished with a task, i want more tasks automaticallyg enerated for the next people involved in the process.	Feb 02 16:55
wasabi	I have some 100+ different 'business processes', each with it's own pathway to completion.	Feb 02 16:55
kentma1	wasabi: lamp stack. trivial.	Feb 02 16:56
wasabi	The configuration of those processes needs to be doable by somebody who is not a programmer: department heads.	Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz	You don't need a team to write a kernel	Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz	Your overstatements don't serve your message	Feb 02 16:56
kentma1	wasabi; department heads never write processes, sorry.	Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz	FOSS is about making components like kernel a commodity	Feb 02 16:56
wasabi	kentma1: Welcome to the real world.	Feb 02 16:56
kentma1	wasabi: I'm in it, and I do this stuff for real.	Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz	You have Web server, you have DB... all free and open	Feb 02 16:56
schestowitz	Use them,	Feb 02 16:56
wasabi	This conversation is silly. You guys have never managed a large company.	Feb 02 16:56
wasabi	Question ended.	Feb 02 16:57
kentma1	wasabi: you never posed a serious question in the first place.	Feb 02 16:57
schestowitz	You choose to pair with a one-man band like some Lezelsoft (??) or whatever instead of shating resources with hundreds of companies that build sw together.	Feb 02 16:57
schestowitz	And if lezersoft or whatever it's called goes bankrupt, then maybe you will too	Feb 02 16:57
wasabi	In real life, that does not happen.	Feb 02 16:58
wasabi	The product works after bankruptcy, gets bought, and maybe renamed.	Feb 02 16:58
kentma1	wasabi: in real life it's happening every day.	Feb 02 16:58
wasabi	Name one example.	Feb 02 16:58
kentma1	wasabi: Nortel.	Feb 02 16:58
kentma1	wasabi: Nokia & Siemens	Feb 02 16:58
wasabi	So nortel's equipment no longer works?	Feb 02 16:58
wasabi	Siemen's software no longer works?	Feb 02 16:58
kentma1	Alcatel & Lucent.	Feb 02 16:58
wasabi	None of those are examples.	Feb 02 16:58
kentma1	Alcatel have scrapped all their previous equipment and use Lucent's instead.	Feb 02 16:58
wasabi	Great. All the existing equipment you might have bought from Alcatel does not one morning stop working.	Feb 02 16:59
kentma1	Most of Siemens' IMS kit is scrapped and they're using Nokia's	Feb 02 16:59
wasabi	It continues working.	Feb 02 16:59
schestowitz	are you suggesting LAMP is 'hard'?	Feb 02 16:59
wasabi	And the IMS kit continues to run for people who bought it.	Feb 02 16:59
kentma1	wasabi: no, it doesn't - support is "EOLed, and the licence is expired.	Feb 02 16:59
schestowitz	Did you ever try fixing a broken Windows or IIS?	Feb 02 16:59
wasabi	schestowitz: I'm suggesting "LAMP" is like suggesting I use "C" to implement a "CRM"	Feb 02 16:59
schestowitz	No tools at hand..	Feb 02 16:59
wasabi	schestowitz: I managed 200+ Windows servers.	Feb 02 16:59
wasabi	And 100+ Linux server.	Feb 02 16:59
wasabi	manage. Present tense.	Feb 02 16:59
kentma1	wasabi: a nice little network.	Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz	wasabi: no, when projects die, then they usually die	Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz	There are many examples	Feb 02 17:00
wasabi	No, they don't. The code keeps working.	Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz	Then your data is stuck in a blob	Feb 02 17:00
kentma1	schestowitz: I just mentioned several	Feb 02 17:00
wasabi	If the code 'turns off' when teh company dies, then it's an issue. But that does not happen.	Feb 02 17:00
kentma1	wasabi: no, it doesn't keep working - the licences are withdrawn.	Feb 02 17:00
schestowitz	Eudora comes to mind, though they try to 'rescue' it	Feb 02 17:00
wasabi	Except like, for Steam. heh.	Feb 02 17:00
wasabi	kentma1: They are not.	Feb 02 17:00
wasabi	kentma1: That is absolutely illegal.	Feb 02 17:00
wasabi	kentma1: One cannot 'withdraw' a license.	Feb 02 17:01
kentma1	wasabi: no, it's not illegal - it's in the terms.	Feb 02 17:01
wasabi	kentma1: One can withdraw a support contract.	Feb 02 17:01
kentma1	wasabi: have you read the EULA for Windows?	Feb 02 17:01
kentma1	wasabi: contracts can and are withdrawn every day.	Feb 02 17:01
wasabi	They are ended, not withdrawn.	Feb 02 17:01
wasabi	The option to not renew.	Feb 02 17:01
kentma1	wasabi: besides, how do you argue with a company which has gone out of business.	Feb 02 17:01
wasabi	Argue about what?	Feb 02 17:01
kentma1	wasabi: no, the licences are withdrawn, the equipment and software are "end of lifed" and teh RTU, that is the "right to use" is ended.	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	Can you please point out where in te EULA they can choose to terminate it?	Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz	wasabi: security too?	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	kentma1: that is absolutely incorrect.	Feb 02 17:02
kentma1	wasabi: I do this as a day job...	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	kentma1: I challenge you to point out hte language in the EULA which says it.	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	kentma1: As do I.	Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz	wasabi: does Eudora still bring security patches?	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	schestowitz: Security patches are not 'withdrawing a license'.	Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz	If your boxes 'eat' mail, can you fix it?	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	Huge difference.	Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz	I mean, you have no source coce.	Feb 02 17:02
schestowitz	*code	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	No, I can move to another solution.	Feb 02 17:02
wasabi	And the world does nto end.	Feb 02 17:02
kentma1	wasabi: then you understand about "end of life" and which companies offer "RTUs?" ... I wonder...	Feb 02 17:03
wasabi	kentma1: End of life for a product does not revoke the license to use it.	Feb 02 17:03
schestowitz	Windows EULA can be terminated	Feb 02 17:03
wasabi	It is still legal to use purchased copies of Windows 95, for instance.	Feb 02 17:03
schestowitz	See it	Feb 02 17:03
wasabi	They can be terminated, but never one sidedly. Only if you don't comply with the EULA.	Feb 02 17:03
kentma1	wasabi: yes, it does, in very many cases indeed. This is what dongles are for, and why they have to be renewed.	Feb 02 17:03
wasabi	Well i won't use software with a dongle. :0	Feb 02 17:04
kentma1	I appreciate that if you've only worked on Windows and Linux, your experience is probably limited, and you genuinely might not know about such things.	Feb 02 17:04
wasabi	sigh.	Feb 02 17:04
kentma1	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki...	Feb 02 17:04
wasabi	You have yet to point out the line in the EULA.	Feb 02 17:04
wasabi	(an EULA I just scanned, looking for what you claim)	Feb 02 17:05
schestowitz	YES!!	Feb 02 17:05
schestowitz	Database is back!!!!!!!	Feb 02 17:05
kentma1	wasabi: I'm just reading the eula bit about "activation"	Feb 02 17:05
MinceR	did your host say anything?	Feb 02 17:05
schestowitz	Let me inspect it before I touch the thing	Feb 02 17:05
jose	wasabi, the point you are both agreeing with is that you can be abandoned to software that can break, have security issues, and offer no way to migrate your data.	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	MinceR: not a word, no	Feb 02 17:06
MinceR	pff	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	That's the worst	Feb 02 17:06
jose	schestowitz, great!	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	part	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	MinceR: it's like when they monitor my connection	Feb 02 17:06
wasabi	It's like claiming that when GM goes belly up, which they migth do, my car will turn off.	Feb 02 17:06
wasabi	it won't.	Feb 02 17:06
kentma1	wasabi: and "validation"	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	They never tell you that they view whatever you do	Feb 02 17:06
wasabi	And there will still be a huge 'support network' of people willing to fix it.	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	One of the guys (sysadmin) who was friendly told me they had been spying on me.	Feb 02 17:06
schestowitz	Which was funny/scary	Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz	It's like being privileged in a good way	Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz	But bad way too	Feb 02 17:07
kentma1	wasabi: it quite clearly states that "you may not be able to use or continue to use some features of the software"	Feb 02 17:07
wasabi	Sure, my warrenty might expire. Sure, I might have to repair it. But so? It still drives.	Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz	So wrt hosts, they fix, but don't say what they did	Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz	They keep it to themselves	Feb 02 17:07
kentma1	wasabi: okay - black and white, it's there.	Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz	If they messed up, they'd rather nobody knew	Feb 02 17:07
schestowitz	OK, be back here in a mo'	Feb 02 17:08
jose	wasabi, see prior comment I made, but your car can turn off it that was part of the deal. it's much easier to have software stop working.. interfaces and new software constantly make yesterdays software useless in many (not all) cases.	Feb 02 17:08
wasabi	kentma1: You're taking narrow language in a EULA, and viewing it from an End Of World scenario. Which is Not useful.	Feb 02 17:08
kentma1	wasabi: not at all. Furthermore, it also states that it can only be run on one instance of hardware, and that you can't move it.	Feb 02 17:08
wasabi	kentma1: Your fear is predicated on a) MS failing b) MS failing and not 'disabling activation'	Feb 02 17:08
schestowitz	User binding was restored too	Feb 02 17:08
wasabi	Scenarios whose likely hood of happening are so highly unlikely as to be laughable.	Feb 02 17:08
jose	cars are standardized .. you have many different vendors and service providers for the parts.. MSware has no second source.	Feb 02 17:09
kentma1	wasabi: if a vendor goes out of business, you have no idea what will happen.	Feb 02 17:09
wasabi	if I can gain 15 years of profit out of using the software, and even if MS goes bankrupt... then what? OH WELL. I still gained 15 years of profit.	Feb 02 17:09
wasabi	And we move on.	Feb 02 17:09
schestowitz	OK, backup done, now the switchover shuts eyes	Feb 02 17:09
kentma1	wasabi: different question entirely.	Feb 02 17:09
wasabi	kentma1: Also, it does not say that. It says Mandatory Activation, blah blah, you have to activate.	Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/	Feb 02 17:10
wasabi	It specifically says you can move between hardware.	Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz	Okay, it seems to be all there...	Feb 02 17:10
kentma1	wasabi: I quoted the licence terms directly.	Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz	If you spot an oopsie, shout out before something breaks.	Feb 02 17:10
kentma1	wasabi: also, the licence quite clearly states that if you do not agree with the terms you are not allowed to use the software.	Feb 02 17:10
schestowitz	All the data seems to be there.	Feb 02 17:11
wasabi	kentma1: Where is that in the Windows EULA?	Feb 02 17:11
schestowitz	So we lost nothing, as expected	Feb 02 17:11
kentma1	wasabi: right at the beginning.	Feb 02 17:11
kentma1	"By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the software."	Feb 02 17:11
wasabi	Uh huh.	Feb 02 17:11
kentma1	again, in black and white.	Feb 02 17:11
kentma1	basically, you have no rights at all, and absolutely zero protection as and when Microsoft go out of business, or choose to stop activating the software.	Feb 02 17:12
jose	schestowitz, bn shows up fine over here (fwiw)	Feb 02 17:12
schestowitz	Thanks. Have a look around items that are recent, say if something funny happens please	Feb 02 17:12
kentma1	wasabi: and you aren't allowed to stop the validation process, either:	Feb 02 17:12
schestowitz	Anyway, you might as well read them :-)	Feb 02 17:12
kentma1	"As described below, using the software also operates as your consent to the transmission of certain computer information during activation, validation and for Internet-based services"	Feb 02 17:12
wasabi	kentma1: You're being black/white. Life isn't black/white.	Feb 02 17:12
schestowitz	I'm comparing data now	Feb 02 17:13
schestowitz	I have over 10 posts to makle	Feb 02 17:13
kentma1	wasabi: it's a licence and I'm pointing out the terms in it.	Feb 02 17:13
wasabi	What will happen is MS will turn off the activationr equirement in 8 years. Just like they did for XP.	Feb 02 17:13
kentma1	wasabi: you can guess that man will be back on the moon in five years - it remains a guess.	Feb 02 17:13
wasabi	Life is a guess.	Feb 02 17:13
wasabi	We have actuaries for this.	Feb 02 17:13
wasabi	Risk management.	Feb 02 17:13
wasabi	There is no significant risk here.	Feb 02 17:13
kentma1	wasabi: not with open-source software, which is why it's so good.	Feb 02 17:13
wasabi	I'm not saying open source isn't good.	Feb 02 17:14
kentma1	wasabi: there is no risk of any of this with GPLed code, which is why GPLed code is so popular	Feb 02 17:14
wasabi	I'm just saying that you can't play purely ideological games like this.	Feb 02 17:14
kentma1	GPLed code cannot be "activated" or "deactivated"	Feb 02 17:14
wasabi	Tell that to Tivo.	Feb 02 17:14
wasabi	Heh.	Feb 02 17:14
kentma1	GPLed code cannot be shut down or switched off, because you have access to the source code.	Feb 02 17:14
wasabi	The code is the least important part.	Feb 02 17:14
kentma1	GPLv3 has been specifically created in order to close the loophole exploited by the Tivo people.	Feb 02 17:14
twitter	schestowitz, added Alchin quotes from Comes vs Microsoft to my patent extortion log. It makes a very nice complement. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/...	Feb 02 17:15
jose	wasabi, the code explains how to get your data out.	Feb 02 17:15
wasabi	This is just so far out there as to be not useful.	Feb 02 17:15
jose	just post an issue on the proper forum (for the project) and you'd likely get a free answer.	Feb 02 17:15
kentma1	GPLed code is a massive de-risk, particularly in recessionary times, when a lot of businesses will shut down.	Feb 02 17:15
wasabi	I can do that with all of the closed software I use too. :0	Feb 02 17:15
kentma1	wasabi: no, you can't.	Feb 02 17:16
kentma1	wasabi: we've just been through this.	Feb 02 17:16
wasabi	Sure I can. I can go to a hundred different IRC channels, and ask questions, and get answers.	Feb 02 17:16
wasabi	or forums.	Feb 02 17:16
twitter	wasabi, "not useful" describes most of what you say.	Feb 02 17:16
wasabi	Or local supprot folks.	Feb 02 17:16
jose	the answers require access to source code	Feb 02 17:16
wasabi	No they don't.	Feb 02 17:16
kentma1	wasabi: with proprietary code, you have no rights to speak of, beyond an absolute bare minimum, and you remain at the behest of the vendor.	Feb 02 17:16
jose	proprietary formats and source code are kept closed for a reason.	Feb 02 17:16
wasabi	Can you point out something I have on my desktop right now that I cannot 'get my data out of?'	Feb 02 17:17
kentma1	wasabi: if the vendor goes bust, you have no choice but to move to something else.	Feb 02 17:17
wasabi	Yes. If an open source project closes down, it's functioanlly the same.	Feb 02 17:17
kentma1	wasabi: no, it's not, because the code is open-source.	Feb 02 17:17
jose	i don't know what your desktop is like, but lose access to the software that created it and you'd be screwed. it happens all the time when you stop upgrading.	Feb 02 17:17
wasabi	But you don't get it.	Feb 02 17:17
wasabi	I'm not going to hire a team of developers to take it over.	Feb 02 17:17
kentma1	wasabi: this conversation is a bit noddy, I'm sure you must know better than this.	Feb 02 17:17
wasabi	It would no longer pass cost/benefit.	Feb 02 17:17
wasabi	I would move onto something else.	Feb 02 17:17
wasabi	In either case, I would move on.	Feb 02 17:18
kentma1	wasabi: you have a choice when the software is GPLed, you have no choices when it's proprietary.	Feb 02 17:18
jose	well if the data is not important, it doesn't really matter what software you use.	Feb 02 17:18
wasabi	kentma1: fundamentally i think you guys are 'wrong'.	Feb 02 17:18
wasabi	kentma1: And have failed to make any case, except to state things in ideologically black/white terms.	Feb 02 17:18
wasabi	Situations I have never seen happen in real life.	Feb 02 17:18
kentma1	wasabi: we're talking about basic features of software licences here, they're not complicated, you should be able to work this out on your own.	Feb 02 17:18
twitter	schestowitz, BN looks good from here.	Feb 02 17:19
kentma1	wasabi: I listed, earlier, various telco vendors which went out of business in the last 5 years.	Feb 02 17:19
jose	wasabi, there is nothing fundamentally complicated about data stored in closed formats	Feb 02 17:19
twitter	congrats on being back up without loss.	Feb 02 17:19
wasabi	kentma1: All of whose software Still Works.	Feb 02 17:19
wasabi	kentma1: And continues to work Right Now.	Feb 02 17:19
wasabi	kentma1: And all of which have migration paths away.	Feb 02 17:19
kentma1	wasabi: all the telcos who bought their equipment have no choide but to replace it, beacuse the RTUs are withdrawn.	Feb 02 17:19
kentma1	wasabi: the migration paths involve the customers paying €£millions.	Feb 02 17:19
wasabi	And? Is that bad?	Feb 02 17:20
kentma1	wasabi: because the platforms are proprietary, and teh customers have no way of getting their data back.	Feb 02 17:20
jose	it's expensive.. i thought that was the point in the first place	Feb 02 17:20
jose	to save a few bucks	Feb 02 17:20
jose	or a few million	Feb 02 17:20
kentma1	wasabi: yes, paying €£millions for something which is disappearing at the whim of a vendor is bad. This is a pretty fundamental point of business.	Feb 02 17:20
wasabi	The questionr eally started because I dislike sharepoint.	Feb 02 17:20
wasabi	As in, I think it's a crappy piece of software.	Feb 02 17:20
kentma1	wasabi: no, it started because you wanted a copy of sharepoint, which implies that you like it very much.	Feb 02 17:21
jose	but you don't want to overspend on other proprietary software that might be better.	Feb 02 17:21
wasabi	Huh?	Feb 02 17:21
wasabi	I want something which solves teh same problem.	Feb 02 17:21
kentma1	I pointed out that what you really need to do is understand the problem you're trying to solve.	Feb 02 17:21
jose	at a low cost.. you said	Feb 02 17:21
wasabi	And where cost/benefit is near.	Feb 02 17:21
schestowitz	twitter: thanks	Feb 02 17:21
schestowitz	I have the DRM post coming.	Feb 02 17:21
wasabi	jose: I did not say low cost was a requirement. I mearly stated that some softare like this was expensive. Not that I was unwilling to buy it.	Feb 02 17:22
kentma1	wasabi: you have indicated that you have no documentation at all regarding the processes you are looking to automate, which is a gaping elephant trap.	Feb 02 17:22
wasabi	kentma1: And I've explained to you, the software I'm looking for would document the processes on it's own.	Feb 02 17:22
schestowitz	twitter: make a good Vista7 log	Feb 02 17:22
wasabi	kentma1: That would be the entire point of buying said software.	Feb 02 17:22
jose	not a "requirement" but you would like to save bucks	Feb 02 17:22
kentma1	wasabi: you said that you have no development team, and you claim that "department heads" will be writing processes.	Feb 02 17:22
schestowitz	Microsoft wants to ram it though with PR. We need ammunition index. I could use one too	Feb 02 17:22
wasabi	Yes, they will be deciding who does what work, in what order.	Feb 02 17:22
kentma1	wasabi: ergo: you like sharepoint and you want a free copy of it.	Feb 02 17:22
wasabi	sigh.	Feb 02 17:23
schestowitz	wasabi: kentma1 is a respectable manager in a worldwide recognised company. Don't talk to him like a kid.	Feb 02 17:23
kentma1	wasabi: sigh indeed. incompetent process people are the bane of many a company.	Feb 02 17:23
wasabi	schestowitz: Great. You all have done nothing but the same to me.	Feb 02 17:23
twitter	schestowitz, I've got one a couple you are familiar with. the vista 7 hype log http://slashdot.org/~twitter/... and the failure log http://slashdot.org/~twitter/...	Feb 02 17:24
kentma1	wasabi: you dodge questions, you make sweeping statements which are frequently self-contradictory, and show a lack of experience in some areas which is a bit disturbing for what you're claiming to be looking at. You ask for proof, and when I provide it, you claim that I'm being "too black and white".	Feb 02 17:24
schestowitz	main loss was no new posts (deliberate) and no news comments (I disabled them immediately)	Feb 02 17:25
kentma1	wasabi: I offered a very good tip for you - look at LAMP and automate your processes that way... it's inexpensive, works exceedingly well, and the "client" software is a web browser.	Feb 02 17:25
schestowitz	wasabi: Microsoft too is at risk of being close to bailout	Feb 02 17:25
schestowitz	It enters debt	Feb 02 17:25
schestowitz	Its assets become irrelevant when its sofwtare is behind the competition, which it is	Feb 02 17:25
wasabi	Your solution is for me to move my development team to a piece of software that it is not beneficial for me to do.	Feb 02 17:26
twitter	I saw the new Vista 7 post. Interesting put together of pieces of I saw elsewhere.	Feb 02 17:26
wasabi	Your solution is for me to waste my time.	Feb 02 17:26
kentma1	wasabi: furthermore, there is no risk of being "End of LIfed"	Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz	Ask DR-DOS..	Feb 02 17:26
wasabi	Good luck with that.	Feb 02 17:26
kentma1	wasabi: you said that you had no development team.	Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz	It was ahead	Feb 02 17:26
twitter	wasabi, you are a waste of time.	Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz	But given better software (which is copyable), second best is worthless.	Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz	SharePoint.. can you trust it?	Feb 02 17:26
schestowitz	Like you could trust MSN music shop (now shut)?	Feb 02 17:27
schestowitz	Or PlayForSure?	Feb 02 17:27
jose	wasabi, if the problem is lack of skills, you can hire a single consultant. you can also start encouraging the team to look into lamp	Feb 02 17:27
schestowitz	Or many of the other services Microsoft just shut down?	Feb 02 17:27
jose	data lock-in is expensive	Feb 02 17:27
kentma1	wasabi: but most worrying of all, you're looking to automate a process for which you have zero documentation. You will fail, as any reasonable Vulcan would point out.	Feb 02 17:27
wasabi	Thanks for the non-advicel. :0	Feb 02 17:27
schestowitz	twitter: I have a post on Vista 7 coming (another one)	Feb 02 17:28
twitter	cool	Feb 02 17:28
kentma1	wasabi: get your documentation, understand the problem, and then look for a solution. This is very good advice, based on years of experience.	Feb 02 17:28
schestowitz	I have about 10 posts	Feb 02 17:28
wasabi	Goodbye.	Feb 02 17:28
kentma1	wasabi: if you want any more, then you can start paying me for consultancy.	Feb 02 17:28
twitter	cooler still.	Feb 02 17:28
jose	companies usually have well-defined processes that don't change that frequently.	Feb 02 17:29
jose	wasabi..	Feb 02 17:29
twitter	I've got some stuff to go do. I hate having to crawl through wasabi trolls to get the news here in IRC.	Feb 02 17:29
kentma1	jose: well, they should be well defined, but in practice, so many things are so complex that local knowledge at the procedural level is hard to work out of the system.	Feb 02 17:29
jose	i heard of stories of how a small group of CS students created better solutions for their university at almost no cost than was managed with a huge peoplesoft installation costing many millions	Feb 02 17:30
kentma1	jose: I think it highly likely. In my experience, simplicity is usually best.	Feb 02 17:30
jose	kentma1, i don't think i was disagreeing. i didn't mean standardized in all details across businesses, i meant within the particular group	Feb 02 17:31
kentma1	My lamp system at work, which original cost about €£30k fought off two attempts with budgets of over €£500k to oust it... :-)	Feb 02 17:31
kentma1	and it's still working, nicely and quietly.	Feb 02 17:31
twitter	schestowitz, there was an interesting M$ patent breakdown I saw last night. It promised more DRM in hardware for access to cloud computing. If they go that way, Windows is more doomed than ever.	Feb 02 17:31
jose	it's also alive.. no eol	Feb 02 17:31
twitter	Let me dig up the link before I go.	Feb 02 17:32
jose	you have all the source.. you can be replaced by another community player ;-)	Feb 02 17:32
jose	twitter, do you mean about the patent that was rejected...	Feb 02 17:33
jose	ms wants you to pay for very expensive machines whose hardware will all be locked down so you can be metered thoroughly	Feb 02 17:33
jose	they admit high acquisition costs	Feb 02 17:34
jose	supposedly costs can be lowered later.. but well, we know how that works.	Feb 02 17:34
jose	and the lack of control over everything on these drm'd machines is sickening	Feb 02 17:34
jose	for a device or certain data that is fine	Feb 02 17:35
schestowitz	twitter, kentma1, jose: wasabi has already states that he's not here to support the channel/community	Feb 02 17:39
schestowitz	Same with benJIman	Feb 02 17:40
jose	that'	Feb 02 17:40
jose	ok	Feb 02 17:40
twitter	better to ignore them and boot them when they flood	Feb 02 17:40
schestowitz	twitter: I did the other DRM docs, sorta	Feb 02 17:40
schestowitz	To the extent that they are relavent	Feb 02 17:40
schestowitz	Among those heaps of exhibits there's particular stuff that needs attention but a lot of 'noise' too	Feb 02 17:41
schestowitz	The ones in the Wiki are better	Feb 02 17:41
schestowitz	With many more to be added	Feb 02 17:41
twitter	here's what I saw, http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/colu...	Feb 02 17:41
schestowitz	I saw that	Feb 02 17:41
twitter	I'm not sure the patent will hold up but the FSM analysis was interesting.	Feb 02 17:41
jose	schestowitz, "relevant" has one of those tricky spellings.. i mention it because it's an issue for me	Feb 02 17:42
twitter	It's almost as irritating as the patent they got on a doc for palm computers.	Feb 02 17:42
twitter	How much more obvious and done can you get than hooking up your portable computer to better input and screen devices... and GWB gave them a patent. nice.	Feb 02 17:43
twitter	well, bbl.	Feb 02 17:43
twitter	oh my one thing I saw on the way out. Gate's "education" initiative was not so educational after all http://news.slashdot.org/article...	Feb 02 17:46
wasabi	Well, I sort of came to the conclusion that there isn't much of a community here. Just a dozen or so people somehow angry at MS and other vendors for some reason. Too emotional. Not enough solutions. Conclusion made, I guess. So, later.	Feb 02 17:48
*wasabi (n=wasabi@ubuntu/member/wasabi) has left #Boycottnovell ("Ex-Chat")		Feb 02 17:48
schestowitz	jose: the reader wants the beef. Short and to the point	Feb 02 17:48
schestowitz	The full exhibits or 30-slide presentations are too much to dig without pointers and remarks	Feb 02 17:49
schestowitz	One reader sent me a translation of an article from Italy	Feb 02 17:49
schestowitz	It's gross what Microsoft is doing	Feb 02 17:49
schestowitz	Time for embargo	Feb 02 17:49
jose	wasabi (in case you read the logs when posted later on), irc BN visitors are a tiny fraction of the community. If you don't like what you got, maybe you visited the wrong subcommunity forum.	Feb 02 17:51
jose	schestowitz, what beef?	Feb 02 17:51
schestowitz	Of the exhibits	Feb 02 17:51
schestowitz	Or the smoking gun/s	Feb 02 17:51
trmanco	hey	Feb 02 17:51
jose	what?	Feb 02 17:51
trmanco	http://search.creativecommons.org/	Feb 02 17:51
trmanco	look at the sceenshot they have there :-P	Feb 02 17:52
jose	wasabi, data lock-in is expensive. That's how proprietary vendors manage to spend so much money on development without leveraging the community. They pay high development costs so they need a way to pull that from clients.	Feb 02 17:53
jose	One of the most important things open source implies is that you can always get your data as modest costs. other benefits include ........	Feb 02 17:55
jose	as -> at	Feb 02 17:55
*r0ver (n=r0ver@200.68.91.21) has joined #boycottnovell		Feb 02 17:56
kentma1	wasabi: this is what "vendor lock-in" is built on.	Feb 02 17:58
kentma1	your data is locked by proprietary code, and you are at the behest of a proprietary vendor in order to get it back. Once enough data is locked, you are over a barrel possibly to the value of €£millions or more.	Feb 02 17:59
kentma1	wasabi: you only need look at the British Library as an example.	Feb 02 17:59
kentma1	They've invested heavily in proprietary technology, which prevents many client devices from working at all, and requires the BL to pay their vendor whenever their vendor wants to be paid.	Feb 02 18:00
kentma1	The BL has, essentially, no cost-effective way out of the mess it is now in. It will have to write-off the investment in order to get onto something which is long-term free of lock-in.	Feb 02 18:00
kentma1	This is what happens when you don't understand the implications of licence conditions.	Feb 02 18:01
jose	microsoft builds products that are "fun" to use initially, but you end up making a mess and can't easily migrate to anything else without taking a real loss.	Feb 02 18:01
jose	hansel and gretel candy fun!	Feb 02 18:02
jose	easy to enter.. tough to leave	Feb 02 18:02
jose	they have been warning of Microsoft for years.	Feb 02 18:03
jose	it's all there since the Brothers Grimm	Feb 02 18:03
schestowitz	The host wrote back	Feb 02 18:08
schestowitz	"I have repaired the issue with the database 'boycottn_wrdp1'. The permissions were set were to your database folder on the server once that was fixed I was able to run the check database and repair database tool in cpanel. This did find some errors and corrected all of them. Please let us know if this has not solved the issue since we do have a backup from February 1st at 2:24am EST time which we can restore from. "	Feb 02 18:08
schestowitz	I wish I had told them about this problem earlier	Feb 02 18:08
schestowitz	kentma1: BL is just poisoned by cronies	Feb 02 18:10
schestowitz	They can make poor decisions for BL as long as MS execs take them to dinner at taxpayers' expense (BL budget)	Feb 02 18:10
*The_Mad_Hatter (i=63ee6975@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6f7d1353f796c18c) has joined #boycottnovell		Feb 02 18:11
The_Mad_Hatter	India is working on a $20.00 computer for classroom use, bet it won't run Windows.	Feb 02 18:13
The_Mad_Hatter	http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/bu...	Feb 02 18:13
*r0ver has quit ("Leaving.")		Feb 02 18:15
schestowitz	Thanks.	Feb 02 18:24
schestowitz	No, it can't run Windows	Feb 02 18:24
schestowitz	Unless Microsoft breathes life into WinCE or something.	Feb 02 18:24
-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, It would appear one of our client servers just dropped off the face of the planet. We're looking into the issue and should hopefully have it back soon. Affected users just over 2,000. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day.		Feb 02 18:25
*mitsuhiko (n=nnmitsuh@hammett.srv.pocoo.org) has joined #boycottnovell		Feb 02 18:25
mitsuhiko	oh boy..	Feb 02 18:25
schestowitz	Hey	Feb 02 18:25
MinceR	oh hey	Feb 02 18:26
schestowitz	We lost no-one, eh?	Feb 02 18:27
The_Mad_Hatter	still here.	Feb 02 18:29
The_Mad_Hatter	did you see that link I posted?	Feb 02 18:29
mitsuhiko	schestowitz: are you actually believing what you're writing?	Feb 02 18:30
mitsuhiko	or are you just a troll	Feb 02 18:30
The_Mad_Hatter	Roy isn't the first to cover this crap. Ever hear of Andrew Grygus?	Feb 02 18:32
schestowitz	The_Mad_Hatter: yes, I got the link	Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz	I wrote about this earlier	Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz	It was gone when I restored to backup temporarily	Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz	It's here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/01/a...	Feb 02 18:34
schestowitz	I reverted back to the up-to- date content	Feb 02 18:34
The_Mad_Hatter	Guess I missed it first time. I wish them luck on this project.	Feb 02 18:36
MinceR	http://tech.slashdot.org/article....	Feb 02 18:36
schestowitz	Yes, it's not new	Feb 02 18:36
schestowitz	Over a year ago the project was announced	Feb 02 18:36
schestowitz	Some called it a scam	Feb 02 18:37
schestowitz	MinceR: beat you to it. ;-)	Feb 02 18:37
MinceR	:)	Feb 02 18:37
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: Roy's the one how is actually harming the open source community	Feb 02 18:40
mitsuhiko	there might have been people before him, but they never were that aggressive	Feb 02 18:40
The_Mad_Hatter	I'm glad that I don't run Windows any more. I pity the poor bastards who still are.	Feb 02 18:40
The_Mad_Hatter	Mitsuhiko - nah, Roy's a real pussycat	Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: have you actually ever developed software for linux?	Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko	i suppose the answer is no	Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko	or if you did and still support that initiative you are insane	Feb 02 18:41
MinceR	mitsuhiko: have you?	Feb 02 18:41
mitsuhiko	as a matter of fact, yes	Feb 02 18:42
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - you should know some of the folks I do, you'd probably run screaming in terror	Feb 02 18:42
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: about what?	Feb 02 18:42
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - Microsoft haters.	Feb 02 18:43
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - some of them even work for Microsoft. Have to admit I wonder what they do there.	Feb 02 18:43
mitsuhiko	hating microsoft	Feb 02 18:44
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: there is valid criticism and there is FUD	Feb 02 18:44
mitsuhiko	roy spreads the latter	Feb 02 18:44
jose	can you give examples mitsuhiko so we can fix them?	Feb 02 18:44
jose	an awful lot is not fud	Feb 02 18:45
mitsuhiko	jose: fix what?	Feb 02 18:45
jose	the fud you say he is spreading	Feb 02 18:45
jose	he's written maybe over a thousand posts (??). Which are the bad parts of these?	Feb 02 18:45
mitsuhiko	yes, he's quite eager, isn't he	Feb 02 18:46
schestowitz	mitsuhiko: : be specific	Feb 02 18:46
mitsuhiko	to bad he never talked to novell or microsoft in an unbiased manner	Feb 02 18:46
schestowitz	I did program for GNU	Feb 02 18:46
schestowitz	I build it on Linux mostly.	Feb 02 18:46
MinceR	mitsuhiko: we're still waiting for examples	Feb 02 18:46
MinceR	or facts, for that matter	Feb 02 18:46
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - tell us - where's the fud? we are curious.	Feb 02 18:46
mitsuhiko	schestowitz: oh great. then you probably know the problems the system has	Feb 02 18:47
mitsuhiko	so then, instead of fighting mono, please provide solutions instead	Feb 02 18:47
mitsuhiko	what you managed to do is to make everybody hate mono	Feb 02 18:47
jose	roy is not perfect. maybe mitsuhiko meant that among the volumes of comments, some wrongful fud has snuck through. i doubt anyone would claim roy was perfect	Feb 02 18:47
mitsuhiko	and that seriously hurts everybody involved	Feb 02 18:47
MinceR	mitsuhiko: one of the solutions is native code	Feb 02 18:48
jose	why are people helping microsoft more easily keep linux+Foss marginalized	Feb 02 18:48
MinceR	it works pretty well, you know :>	Feb 02 18:48
jose	why are people using mono	Feb 02 18:48
mitsuhiko	MinceR: oh heck is it working well, incredible well	Feb 02 18:48
jose	use something besides mono .. simple	Feb 02 18:48
mitsuhiko	i just have to start evolution and see how well it works	Feb 02 18:48
mitsuhiko	jose: oh. like the broken python vm?	Feb 02 18:49
MinceR	especially when clueful people write it	Feb 02 18:49
mitsuhiko	or should we all adopt the jvm now?	Feb 02 18:49
jose	fork mono significantly.. simple (well, if devs put their mind to it)	Feb 02 18:49
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - mono and .NET are both pieces of crap.	Feb 02 18:49
MinceR	(protip: the guys coding for microsoft aren't clueful people)	Feb 02 18:49
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: you clearly had a look at it	Feb 02 18:49
jose	mitsuhiko.. fork dotnet.. simple (if devs put their...)	Feb 02 18:49
mitsuhiko	MinceR: i hope i never have to work together with you in a team	Feb 02 18:49
MinceR	then we share one hope.	Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko	jose: your sentence either makes no sense or is incomplete	Feb 02 18:50
MinceR	i'd rather not work with idiots.	Feb 02 18:50
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - yes, and I don't like either. Utter garbage.	Feb 02 18:50
jose	mitsuhiko.. fork dotnet.. simple (if devs put their minds to it)	Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: have you actually ever worked with .net?	Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko	jose: why should anyone fork .net?	Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko	what would be the point of it?	Feb 02 18:50
mitsuhiko	elaborate	Feb 02 18:50
MinceR	indeed, what	Feb 02 18:50
MinceR	.net is pointless :>	Feb 02 18:50
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - yes. 3-4 years ago. I hated it.	Feb 02 18:51
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: for what exactly?	Feb 02 18:51
mitsuhiko	MinceR: what do you use instead of .net?	Feb 02 18:52
jose	mitsuhiko, wrt patent risks.. follow the two links at the bottom of this comment http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure...	Feb 02 18:52
mitsuhiko	jose: i'm crapping my pants...	Feb 02 18:52
jose	mitsuhiko, see also this http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1...	Feb 02 18:52
mitsuhiko	i give a shit about patent risk	Feb 02 18:52
MinceR	mitsuhiko: mostly native code, python and script languages	Feb 02 18:52
jose	in the us that is a risk	Feb 02 18:52
mitsuhiko	jose: stepping out of my door is a risk, i could slip on the ice	Feb 02 18:53
jose	it's so easy to fork mono (if devs put their minds to it), why take the risks?	Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko	because it would be pointless	Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko	mono works perfectly fine	Feb 02 18:53
The_Mad_Hatter	Mitsuhiko - of course you have to remember that I do command line stuff only	Feb 02 18:53
jose	mitsuhiko, a guaranteed patent violation across all mono apps for example is a little more serious if you are a large business using these apps	Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko	and if someone claims patent infringement the code in question can be swapped and no harm is done	Feb 02 18:53
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - didn't say it didn't work, just that it's garbage to work with.	Feb 02 18:53
mitsuhiko	jose: big business and linux, you're dreaming	Feb 02 18:53
jose	mitsuhiko, what was your point of coming on here ..or of supporting mono, again?	Feb 02 18:54
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: if you are only doing command line stuff i can't take you serious for mono criticism	Feb 02 18:54
mitsuhiko	jose: no, about asking if you really believe in what you're saying	Feb 02 18:54
mitsuhiko	i was hoping that website being a bad satiric blog	Feb 02 18:54
jose	mitsuhiko, you can't swap out code unless you want to rework all applications and this may involve serious re-design in some case.	Feb 02 18:55
MinceR	mitsuhiko: the "code in question" is mono	Feb 02 18:55
MinceR	not that easy to swap	Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko	MinceR: no, it's not	Feb 02 18:55
MinceR	elaborate.	Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko	MinceR: do you know how patents work?	Feb 02 18:55
jose	mitsuhiko, worse, if the violations are with things like aspdotnet, you will have tons of apps.. very high costs	Feb 02 18:55
MinceR	in fact i do	Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko	MinceR: if you do that should answer your question	Feb 02 18:55
MinceR	mitsuhiko: actually it doesn't	Feb 02 18:55
mitsuhiko	MinceR: there is no patent on mono	Feb 02 18:56
MinceR	good luck "swapping out" a part a vital part of your app relies on	Feb 02 18:56
mitsuhiko	there are patents on language runtime systems and interfaces for web developement	Feb 02 18:56
The_Mad_Hatter	mitsuhiko - why can't you take my criticism seriously?	Feb 02 18:56
MinceR	which happen to apply to .net	Feb 02 18:56
MinceR	which mono happens to replicate	Feb 02 18:56
The_Mad_Hatter	Mitsuhiko - and it is for what I'm doing.	Feb 02 18:56
mitsuhiko	The_Mad_Hatter: because if you are only doing cli applications you won't have any problems	Feb 02 18:56
mitsuhiko	the cli is a dumb interface that just works	Feb 02 18:57
mitsuhiko	no fancy magic	Feb 02 18:57
mitsuhiko	(besides readline being licensed under gpl crap)	Feb 02 18:57
jose	mitsuhiko, the link i gave above has two links at the end.. read those two pieces (if you are a dev, you should not have too much trouble, though you may take a little while)	Feb 02 18:57

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 2nd, 2009 - Part 2

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