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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 3rd, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 5:23 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

schestowitz Now he goes after Oracle.. but never ever criticises Microsoft. Just Apple, Google… anything but Novell’s ally that’s a criminal company. Feb 03 00:00
schestowitz ø per second: 90.53 Feb 03 00:05
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/02/o… This is not good. They’ll be pushed towards another stack/formats/platform/etc. Feb 03 00:07
schestowitz Yahoo Halts Ads In RSS Program < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009… > Feb 03 00:20
schestowitz Very good. Feb 03 00:24
schestowitz Google released Googleearth5 to Linux at the same time as other platforms. That’s progress: http://earth.google.com/intl/en/d… Feb 03 00:24
schestowitz “After a  single forward slash  caused  worldwide trouble  for the world’s most popular search engine on Saturday, analysts started wondering aloud whether Google ‘s rabid users may seriously consider some search alternatives.” http://www.pcworld.com/article/158754… Feb 03 00:27
NeonFloss I finally tried out/halfswitched to linux about a week and a half ago Feb 03 00:33
NeonFloss ive been missing so much for so long Feb 03 00:33
NeonFloss I wrote about but probobly nothing interesting to you guys Feb 03 00:34
NeonFloss im going to throw it in here anyways http://www.blogpirate.org/2009/02/01/te… Feb 03 00:34
NeonFloss ;) Feb 03 00:35
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 03 00:36
oiaohm Hmm Linux Hater is back.  Just as insulting as as the past.   At least his topics have some base compared to Linux Hater redux that are basically base less. Feb 03 00:38
oiaohm schestowitz: looks like site is back to normal? Feb 03 00:47
schestowitz oiaohm: he’s not back Feb 03 00:47
schestowitz Redux is the real one Feb 03 00:47
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, let me paste Feb 03 00:48
schestowitz “Thank you for your reply and for choosing HostDime for all of your web hosting needs. I hope we can continue to provide you with excellent services and prices now and in the future. If you may ever have any future comments or questions, please do not hesitate to submit a ticket or post in our community forums.” Feb 03 00:48
schestowitz “I have repaired the issue with the database ‘boycottn_wrdp1′. The permissions were set were to your database folder on the server once that was fixed I was able to run the check database and repair database tool in cpanel. This did find some errors and corrected all of them. Please let us know if this has not solved the issue since we do have a backup from February 1st at 2:24am EST time which we can restore from.” Feb 03 00:48
schestowitz NeonFloss: that’s excellent, thanks! Feb 03 00:49
NeonFloss heh Feb 03 00:50
oiaohm Ok that is warped. Feb 03 00:50
oiaohm Partly. Feb 03 00:50
oiaohm I guess it was as I though reset part way threw write an mysql left it locked. Feb 03 00:50
oiaohm And minorlly damaged. Feb 03 00:51
oiaohm Normal system admin tech they did not say what crashed the server. Feb 03 00:52
oiaohm I would be asking that question incase they do have a standard reset time for kernel updates. Feb 03 00:53
oiaohm http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/  << This blog is back active schestowitz Feb 03 00:54
oiaohm So we have redux and first both running side by side. Feb 03 00:54
oiaohm First Linux Hater is not anti-linux all the time any more either.  One of the new posts even has a answer from him defending Linux in a particular area. Feb 03 00:55
schestowitz oiaohm: I don’t read his blog Feb 03 00:55
schestowitz he trolled us, sort of Feb 03 00:55
schestowitz oiaohm: would there be gain from finding out what caused the crash (to me, not them)? Feb 03 00:56
oiaohm If there was part of standard operation when not to write to database Feb 03 00:56
oiaohm And maybe a time to disable writes leading upto it so this don’t happen again. Feb 03 00:57
oiaohm If it was something pure random nothing much can be done of course Feb 03 00:57
NeonFloss linux hater is leader of the closed source community heh Feb 03 00:58
oiaohm Not really. Feb 03 00:58
oiaohm This year I think they will find out he has never been closed source as such from all the times I have talked to him. Feb 03 00:59
oiaohm One of these people who thinks being anti get attention. Feb 03 01:00
oiaohm Being on topic is far more important than insulting. Feb 03 01:01
schestowitz oiaohm: good point. Feb 03 01:03
NeonFloss yea Feb 03 01:03
NeonFloss ^ I added that to my quote database “One of these people who thinks being anti get attention. Being on topic is far more important than insulting.” -oiaohm Feb 03 01:04
oiaohm Real world name if you wnat it NeonFloss is Peter Dolding Feb 03 01:05
NeonFloss sure Feb 03 01:06
oiaohm Of course most online people know me as oiaohm Feb 03 01:06
NeonFloss my database is just a casual one – its got some wise, interesting, wierd things in it Feb 03 01:06
NeonFloss one day ill publish it Feb 03 01:06
NeonFloss one day heh Feb 03 01:06
NeonFloss ;) Feb 03 01:06
oiaohm oiaohm=Ok I Am Over Here Mate Feb 03 01:06
NeonFloss heh Feb 03 01:07
NeonFloss nice Feb 03 01:07
schestowitz “Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, shortly after issuing his rulings of law, and just before releasing the final remedy judgment told a reporter that, based on the evidence presented in the case, Microsoft’s top executives were criminals and should face criminal prosecution.” Feb 03 01:13
schestowitz I didn’t know it was an acronym. Feb 03 01:14
oiaohm It came out of frustration.  One day I way trying to log into sites and all my common usernames were taken. Feb 03 01:15
schestowitz Well, at least it’s a unique toke Feb 03 01:15
schestowitz *token Feb 03 01:15
schestowitz I can find stuff using my surname, which is useful for tracking stuff I remember saying publicly on the World Wibble Wibble Feb 03 01:16
oiaohm My problem is my surname and first name combination is not uncommon. Feb 03 01:17
schestowitz http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&… Feb 03 01:17
oiaohm Yep I kinda get all over the place Feb 03 01:18
oiaohm And that is only since 2000 Feb 03 01:18
oiaohm My pre 2000 stuff was under a different username. Feb 03 01:18
oiaohm In my youth I had the stupid idea that a good virus would be buildable.   Age there is no such thing as a good computer virus. Feb 03 01:20
schestowitz oiaohm: what’s your take on Dana Blankenhorn? Feb 03 01:25
schestowitz Like 80% of his headline are OSS-hostile. No wonder though, he doesn’t even use OSS. Feb 03 01:25
schestowitz Might be /dev/null-bound, mefigures Feb 03 01:26
oiaohm He falls in that camp of Microsoft Cult member brain washed to a point he don’t think for himself any more. Feb 03 01:27
oiaohm There are Open Source Cult members as well. Feb 03 01:28
schestowitz Based on pesonal opinion? Feb 03 01:28
oiaohm Based on my peronal opinion from his actions. Feb 03 01:28
schestowitz Another one is Thom at OSNews Feb 03 01:28
schestowitz It’s like Microsoft bought him or something Feb 03 01:28
oiaohm Thom is more bought still thinking. Feb 03 01:29
schestowitz OSNews become a whorehouse for Windows Vista/Vista7/XP Feb 03 01:29
schestowitz I’ll dump those feeds into the secondary Feb 03 01:29
schestowitz After like 2-3 years in my reading list. They got so much worse, that’s all.. Feb 03 01:29
oiaohm Name the last time Dana Blankenhorn talked currectly about a flaw in an appliucations. Feb 03 01:29
oiaohm You will be going. Feb 03 01:30
schestowitz Eugena pretty much left OSNews.. Feb 03 01:30
oiaohm I don’t know of once. Feb 03 01:30
oiaohm Thorn has talked correctly about flaws. Feb 03 01:30
oiaohm This is the difference between cult and non cult.   The non cult are still producting correct information in some places. Feb 03 01:30
oiaohm Just bent to there way of seeing the world. Feb 03 01:31
schestowitz He peddles vapourware Feb 03 01:31
schestowitz And some of the Microsoft pretense Feb 03 01:31
schestowitz Either he’s gullible, but he ain’t stupid enough for that, or he’s bullish on the MS train Feb 03 01:31
oiaohm Thorn reports on up coming OS’s accross Open Source and Closed.   So some vaporware is expected in that field. Feb 03 01:33
schestowitz That site’s direction in general is disappointing and it was a friend of mine who raised this issue Feb 03 01:37
schestowitz So I know other people who’ve read it for years noticed this too… independently. Feb 03 01:37
schestowitz I don’t find much useful stuff there anyway Feb 03 01:38
oiaohm http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=3405  This one is a good example of Dana Blankenhorn bending. Feb 03 01:39
oiaohm It has to be bad that closed source can run on open source devices.   Sorry that is exactly the rights the owner of the device wants to use it what ever they choose. Feb 03 01:40
oiaohm Dana is far more suttle at undermining. Feb 03 01:40
schestowitz He needs to provoke Feb 03 01:42
schestowitz He used to be decent for a while Feb 03 01:42
schestowitz Then he compalint he for no attention and comments Feb 03 01:42
schestowitz This puts his job at ris Feb 03 01:42
schestowitz I think we discussed this earlier Feb 03 01:42
oiaohm Maybe I have not read old enough documents of his. Feb 03 01:44
schestowitz There were periods Feb 03 01:44
schestowitz Paula is OK, BUT Feb 03 01:44
schestowitz Occasionally she does the Microsoft party line… fake ‘open source’ Feb 03 01:44
schestowitz She no longer seems to write for The Register (downgrade IMHO) Feb 03 01:45
schestowitz http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7865114.stm Feb 03 01:46
oiaohm Drivers with mobile phones is hell.  It was one the worse data recoverys I have had to do was a laptop from a car crash. Feb 03 01:52
oiaohm I really should not have asked what was on the laptop. Feb 03 01:52
oiaohm Boy does it take a while to put a web development framework back into one peice. Feb 03 02:23
schestowitz Which one? Feb 03 02:23
oiaohm Eclipse + Aptana + Flex 3 and 4 Feb 03 02:26
schestowitz Good Feb 03 02:26
oiaohm First half getting it setup for my 64 bit machine Feb 03 02:27
oiaohm Secound half getting it set up floating on my USB stick. Feb 03 02:27
oiaohm Aptana I normally use alone this project kinda needs a little more than normal. Feb 03 02:29
schestowitz Adobe?? 64-bit. No way! Feb 03 02:29
oiaohm Flex 3 and 4 sdk are pure java. Feb 03 02:29
oiaohm So they work fine.   Far better under 64 bit java. Feb 03 02:30
schestowitz That too is notorious (well, has been till recenly) Feb 03 02:33
schestowitz Sun Provides 64-bit Java Plug-In For Linux <  http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag… > Feb 03 02:33
schestowitz 64-Bit Linux Adobe Flash Player: Surprisingly good < http://blogs.computerworld.com/64_bit_li… > Feb 03 02:33
schestowitz Why There is Better Driver Support in 64-bit Linux Than 64-bit Windows XP < http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php… > Feb 03 02:33
oiaohm 64 bit sun really good. Feb 03 02:34
oiaohm Ok Linux has had 64 bit support for Longer. Feb 03 02:34
oiaohm Main stream. Feb 03 02:34
oiaohm 32 bit flash player works quite OK on Linux threw the wrapper to 64 firefox Feb 03 02:35
schestowitz Yes, so I’ve heard Feb 03 02:37
*schestowitz uses a 64-bit machine, but on 32-bit build — for now Feb 03 02:37
oiaohm I am supprised no 128 bit cpu types have appeared yet. Feb 03 02:39
schestowitz Given adoption rate of 64, can you blame them? Feb 03 02:39
schestowitz I don’t even know about development complexity (chips, CAD, research) Feb 03 02:40
schestowitz GCC…. Feb 03 02:40
oiaohm Gcc is screwed internally. Feb 03 02:41
schestowitz Could pass short English sentences as intr’ set Feb 03 02:41
oiaohm Gcc optimiser does not apply when linking. Feb 03 02:42
oiaohm Yep most programs have more than one object file making them up.  So Linux really should be running as a snail compared to windows. Feb 03 02:42
oiaohm MSVC does optimise on Linking. Feb 03 02:43
oiaohm It makes it funny that Linux can out bench mark windows at doing things. Feb 03 02:43
oiaohm Hmm flex 4 is a smaller download than flex 3 Feb 03 02:47
schestowitz oiaohm: maybe depends on cases Feb 03 02:50
schestowitz gcc is super versatile Feb 03 02:50
schestowitz I’ve used it to compile c, c++, other stuff… Intel invests a lot in improving it for self gain. Feb 03 02:50
oiaohm No does not depend on cases. Feb 03 02:51
oiaohm Until gcc gets a link time optmiser it cannot optimise completely. Feb 03 02:51
oiaohm portland group complier verse gcc is just embarsing. Feb 03 02:51
oiaohm Normally the portland built version of program is half the size. Feb 03 02:51
oiaohm And it runs rings out gcc produced program same source. Feb 03 02:52
oiaohm gcc is verstile but major design flaw as done at start where they split binutils and gcc.  Its the wrong place. Feb 03 02:54
*The_Mad_Hatter (i=63ee6975@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-70220b5104c5305f) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 03 02:54
The_Mad_Hatter Evening Feb 03 02:55
schestowitz Evening, Sir Feb 03 02:56
oiaohm Hi The_Mad_Hatter Feb 03 02:56
*r0ver (n=r0ver@200-122-96-173.cab.prima.net.ar) has left #boycottnovell Feb 03 02:56
The_Mad_Hatter I take it our MS buddy left? Feb 03 02:57
schestowitz Yes Feb 03 02:57
*jose (n=jose@ has joined #boycottnovell Feb 03 02:57
schestowitz He got upset Feb 03 02:57
The_Mad_Hatter ROFLMAO – off course, he can’t handle the truth. Feb 03 02:57
oiaohm So I missed on MS person to pound what a pitty. Feb 03 02:58
The_Mad_Hatter Yeah. Almost felt sorry for him, he was just so clueless. Feb 03 02:59
oiaohm So not like on of the lead developer of reactos. Feb 03 03:00
oiaohm Who did know something. Feb 03 03:00
oiaohm Got really pissed when he could not pin me. Feb 03 03:01
schestowitz ReactOS… blech Feb 03 03:01
oiaohm Note debating Linux kernel design vs Windows Kernel design with him. Feb 03 03:01
schestowitz Too close to the Vole Feb 03 03:01
oiaohm Lasted 3 days and it was interesting. Feb 03 03:01
oiaohm All I can say is MS took a really good design in NT and stuffed it up. Feb 03 03:02
The_Mad_Hatter We will never convince some people of what MS is. We can however do what the watergate burglers did. Feb 03 03:02
oiaohm Ok compared to what Linux is becoming NT design is going to be lacking. Feb 03 03:02
oiaohm NT kernel at its base is a Real Time kernel. Feb 03 03:03
oiaohm Yet some stupid bugger introducted spinlocks into it jaming the real time kernel completely up. Feb 03 03:03
oiaohm So I would not be supprissed if Reactos does not end up running rings around windows as well. Feb 03 03:04
The_Mad_Hatter From one point of view, that isn’t an issue. What is at issue is breaking the monopoly. Feb 03 03:04
oiaohm what is the point of breaking the monoploy if what replaces it does not work. Feb 03 03:05
jose schestowitz, i wrote up a few comparison cases (very simple, no patent or api details.. just high level stuff) on the ways patents and apis can interact (4 cases). I use tetris as an example. Feb 03 03:06
The_Mad_Hatter I see your point – my thought is that others are working on that. Feb 03 03:06
jose ok.. now that is a side show for now because i’ll rewrite it and find a way to clean it in the final write-up. Feb 03 03:06
jose a whole new draft i just started begins…. [want me to post it here for comment... ? ] Feb 03 03:07
oiaohm I am one also who takes part in debates about Linux and freedesktop future The_Mad_Hatter Feb 03 03:07
The_Mad_Hatter What I did today is download about 4.5 gigs of GPL software for Windows, and I’m going to make up a nice set of menus, and burn it all to DVD, and give them away. Feb 03 03:07
oiaohm One of the big things I want people to give up that Linux has a Desktop. Feb 03 03:07
*kwabbles (i=4ca7ebfc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-917611e19eb5795c) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 03 03:07
oiaohm X11 desktops kinda will work everywhere. Feb 03 03:08
The_Mad_Hatter you can even run them on windows Feb 03 03:08
oiaohm And in time KDE 4.x will work every so OS under is going to get less important from a training point of view. Feb 03 03:08
oiaohm Teach them KDE install KDE then they can use what ever OS they like. Feb 03 03:08
oiaohm Of course KDE 4.x need to get to KDE 4.4 or 4.5 to be into optmisation state. Feb 03 03:09
The_Mad_Hatter That I’ll try later. Right now I’m offering them free office, games, etc. Feb 03 03:09
oiaohm KDE 4.x is not good enough for windows yet. Feb 03 03:10
The_Mad_Hatter Idea is to get them used to not using Microsoft, and to looking for GPL software. Feb 03 03:11
oiaohm KDE 4.2 it does run but things like taskmanager and the bar with running processes is missing. Feb 03 03:11
oiaohm MS is looking at Linux as a threat. Feb 03 03:12
jose ever consider giving out a live linux cd with website info on it where you can be reached if they are interested.. or give out videos or just the website. Feb 03 03:12
oiaohm The threat is really desktops rendered not important. Feb 03 03:12
jose The_Mad_Hatter… Feb 03 03:12
oiaohm jose normally too big of a jump at first. Feb 03 03:12
jose a video and website Feb 03 03:12
jose ? Feb 03 03:12
oiaohm If users are using open source applications when they jump accross they have something they know on the other side. Feb 03 03:12
oiaohm They are more likely to stay using Linux. Feb 03 03:13
oiaohm I have coverted quite a few.  Best covert there apps then there OS. Feb 03 03:13
jose ideally you could just install and let them play but that doesn’t work when you meet someone on the street.. though if you strike a small relationship, then it gets more interesting. Feb 03 03:13
The_Mad_Hatter Yeah, thought of that. Most of the people I’ll be working with aren’t techies thought, and that might be a bit too much Feb 03 03:13
jose and if you have a laptop to demo Feb 03 03:13
oiaohm jose one bad experence and they can be hard to get back on Linux. Feb 03 03:13
The_Mad_Hatter Yep, convert the apps, and then the OS is what I think. Hell, it’s the path I took. Feb 03 03:14
oiaohm Now if they know the apps bad experienes are way less. Feb 03 03:14
The_Mad_Hatter Roy, you still here? Feb 03 03:14
jose what if foss doesn’t really run well on windows? Feb 03 03:14
jose they have firefox already Feb 03 03:14
oiaohm You pick applications taht do. Feb 03 03:14
The_Mad_Hatter foss runs real well on Windows Feb 03 03:14
The_Mad_Hatter Better often than Microsoft crud. Feb 03 03:15
The_Mad_Hatter Roy? Feb 03 03:15
oiaohm Its like if I asked you to build a 100 percent secure server from nothing jose and gave you the books. Feb 03 03:15
jose using an installation don’t require techies Feb 03 03:15
The_Mad_Hatter You still having hosting problems? Feb 03 03:15
jose what are you talking about? Feb 03 03:15
oiaohm It would scare the crap out of most people jose Feb 03 03:15
The_Mad_Hatter yeah. it would scare them. so move them over slowly. Feb 03 03:16
oiaohm With secuirty you start 1 part at a time. Feb 03 03:16
oiaohm Of course normally starting at kernel working up. Feb 03 03:16
jose matt asay’s new piece (which i don’t like too much) mentions how php would not run on windows without microsoft intervention. much foss is designed for posix environments. Feb 03 03:16
oiaohm With desktop users you have to work the other way. Feb 03 03:16
oiaohm The truth is MS NT is ment to be a posix Feb 03 03:17
jose linux is not difficult Feb 03 03:17
oiaohm MS has screwed up so many functions stuff don’t work correctly anymore. Feb 03 03:17
The_Mad_Hatter jose – most personal use stuff works fine. Web stuff is different/ Feb 03 03:17
oiaohm jose its not difficult is different. Feb 03 03:17
jose many people don’t use computers that much Feb 03 03:17
oiaohm Different scares people if they don’t have something familer to grab hold of. Feb 03 03:17
jose you are talking about power users i think Feb 03 03:18
oiaohm Now people without computr experince going straight into Linux is not a problem. Feb 03 03:18
jose web is familiar Feb 03 03:18
oiaohm Ie coverting there apps give them a safty blanet to hold on to. Feb 03 03:18
jose most use of computer is either extremely limited or for web Feb 03 03:18
oiaohm Yes I still know how to do things thing. Feb 03 03:18
oiaohm Jose what would happen if I droped you on a totally new OS you had never seen before. Feb 03 03:19
oiaohm How well do you think you would go jose Feb 03 03:19
jose show me the basics.. linux gui immitates the basics quite well Feb 03 03:19
jose kde is very customizable Feb 03 03:19
oiaohm I am not talking Linux. Feb 03 03:20
jose windows was new to me once Feb 03 03:20
jose i learned because i needed the apps Feb 03 03:20
oiaohm I am talking a envorment where you know none of the applications names. Feb 03 03:20
jose if people desire foss apps on linux they will test the waters and go a little deeper etc Feb 03 03:20
oiaohm Now would it not be simpler to go back to somewhere you know something. Feb 03 03:20
schestowitz jose: that sounds good (the comparison Feb 03 03:20
oiaohm This is what I am getting at by coverting there apps they know something. Feb 03 03:20
jose you will never convert someone by appealing to their most laziest or fearfulness-est Feb 03 03:21
jose you motivate Feb 03 03:21
The_Mad_Hatter One problem – we have to assume that we are dealing with newbies Feb 03 03:21
oiaohm jose it is easier to motivate if they can see ways forwards. Feb 03 03:21
jose schestowitz.. let me post what might be the intro (it seems decent)… Feb 03 03:21
oiaohm That there is light at end to tunnel. Feb 03 03:21
jose videos and more Feb 03 03:21
oiaohm Droping them accross without apps they find it really hard to see that. Feb 03 03:21
The_Mad_Hatter schestowitz – still having hosting problems? I may have a suggestion. Feb 03 03:22
jose test machine is ideal Feb 03 03:22
jose but that is not always doable for obvious reasons Feb 03 03:22
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: show them Compiz Feb 03 03:22
oiaohm I have never needed the test machine. Feb 03 03:22
oiaohm For everyone I coverted so far. Feb 03 03:22
oiaohm its about a 3 to 6 month cycle. Feb 03 03:22
oiaohm They willling go accross no pushing no effort. Feb 03 03:22
jose well if you have something that works great Feb 03 03:22
oiaohm Its a patern Feb 03 03:23
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: no hosting problems for now. Feb 03 03:23
oiaohm Covert there apps Feb 03 03:23
jose i would not spend time that could be done improving linux+foss working on windows compat Feb 03 03:23
*schestowitz still catches up Feb 03 03:23
The_Mad_Hatter schestowitz – Compiz would scare them – what they need is something that they can run without changing OS to start. Feb 03 03:23
oiaohm They get to knwo that free open source is good then want to try more and more and more. Feb 03 03:23
oiaohm Then one day they are asking to install Linux and they stay there. Feb 03 03:23
The_Mad_Hatter Schestowitz – OK – if hosting gets to be an issue, the Pirate Bay runs their own hosting company, and I hear the prices are reasonable. Feb 03 03:24
oiaohm Its getting the started is the important bits and avoiding big failures along the way. Feb 03 03:24
schestowitz jose: many people just confine “computer” to very few tasks Feb 03 03:24
jose well oiaohm, that sounds ok. so a handful of windows foss apps and that is it, right? Feb 03 03:24
The_Mad_Hatter oiaohm – yes, and to get them started do it in small steps. Open Office for example. Feb 03 03:24
schestowitz Like “click blue E, wait for MSN to load, put in username, click E-mails..” Feb 03 03:24
jose all the reason changing is not that big a deal Feb 03 03:24
schestowitz With a live CD it’s simpler (or live USB)… PCs are then universal to them. Feb 03 03:25
oiaohm Define handful. Feb 03 03:25
oiaohm The applications are normally pick to what they do. Feb 03 03:25
jose the problem i worry about with livecd is that getting online might now work right away. Feb 03 03:26
oiaohm OpenOffice is quite common.  I am choosing from over a list of 1000 applications. Feb 03 03:26
oiaohm That is the other issue Feb 03 03:26
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: we’ll install quid or pound Feb 03 03:26
oiaohm Linux too fast something does not work and they go back. Feb 03 03:26
schestowitz Coral is not robust enough, but it’s cheap and it helps Feb 03 03:26
oiaohm Getting them to try again is extreamly hard. Feb 03 03:26
jose if you don’t help the people, changing at any point in time is complex Feb 03 03:27
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: compiz/fusion/beryl  (formerly) is part of the O/S.. like a feature Feb 03 03:27
jose if you help, it’s doable.. don’t take the motivation of trying new free stuff away from the motivation to do linux Feb 03 03:27
The_Mad_Hatter oiaohm – if you have list send it to me Feb 03 03:27
schestowitz It enables to show where Linux is ahead and different, a “wow” factor Feb 03 03:27
jose you people need to adopt communities and entertain.. offer them vallue Feb 03 03:27
The_Mad_Hatter schestowitz – Compiz assumes hardware to run it, a lot don’t have that Feb 03 03:28
jose they will switch to take part Feb 03 03:28
jose otherwise they are confined to summaries and youtube videos Feb 03 03:28
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: Pirate Bay has bad karma. Feb 03 03:28
schestowitz They also go to court now (Swedish police) Feb 03 03:28
jose schestowitz, should I email you the intro or post here [hint.. pick one :-) ] Feb 03 03:29
schestowitz jose: that’s what LUGs were for Feb 03 03:29
schestowitz jose: yes, please. Feb 03 03:30
jose you can customize cds and fill them with some third party marketing material and get paid for giving them out Feb 03 03:30
The_Mad_Hatter schestowitz – Pirate Bay and hosting company are seperate entities. Also it is likely that PB’s actions are legal, since they are the saem as Google Feb 03 03:30
schestowitz But I go to bed now Feb 03 03:30
schestowitz 3:40 am Feb 03 03:30
The_Mad_Hatter schestowitz – when does Doctor Who start up again? Feb 03 03:30
jose i’m trying to see if the intro is a gentle intro that won’t confuse nondevs Feb 03 03:31
schestowitz The_Mad_Hatter: I don’t know. Feb 03 03:31
schestowitz gn Feb 03 03:31
jose gn Feb 03 03:31
The_Mad_Hatter schestowitz – wife is from Stoke on Trent. Feb 03 03:31
oiaohm jose when I started out with Linux I was pushing to way too hard as well. Feb 03 03:32
jose oiaohm, people have problems with windows. a key is not linux or windows but if you are willing to help them Feb 03 03:32
oiaohm People are set in there ways jose Feb 03 03:32
jose so are you willing to support windows or linux.. that is the key to newbie success on platform X Feb 03 03:32
oiaohm I will support either. Feb 03 03:33
oiaohm I support Linux Mac Windows. Feb 03 03:33
oiaohm try getting a Mac user to use windows and vice verse at times. Feb 03 03:33
jose i support linux only.. windows for emergencies but it’s an antideveloper/user platform. Feb 03 03:33
jose users stuck on windows for various apps.. sure that is issue Feb 03 03:33
jose they can’t switch completely in short time no matter what Feb 03 03:34
The_Mad_Hatter If you want to convert people, you have to help the poor suckers on Windows, Feb 03 03:34
jose if windows is baren.. you help them on linux Feb 03 03:34
jose why would i want windows to be semi fruitful when it’s such an anti-dev-user platform? Feb 03 03:34
jose seen their eula’s and lack of flexibility? Feb 03 03:35
jose again, users need not abandon windows.. they just need to have a good reason to want to use linux as well (and the ability to use it of course) Feb 03 03:35
jose like a second pc or a good livecd/usbstick Feb 03 03:36
jose those are my thoughts. Feb 03 03:36
jose i would not support or port to windows Feb 03 03:36
The_Mad_Hatter jose – yes, I have. And I won’t use it myself. But the people I am trying to convert don’t hate Microsoft like I do, and if I come across as a total jerk they won’t listen. Feb 03 03:36
jose don’t be a jerk Feb 03 03:36
jose support windows for $$ to cover your pain but linux for free or for much less Feb 03 03:37
jose linux has lower acquisition, creation,… costs so charge less Feb 03 03:37
The_Mad_Hatter I’m not. I’m helping them save money, with better software. Feb 03 03:37
jose or free Feb 03 03:37
jose linux, right? Feb 03 03:37
jose the key is apps. create the apps for linux. Feb 03 03:38
jose not for windows. Feb 03 03:38
jose people will follow the apps Feb 03 03:38
jose motivation Feb 03 03:38
The_Mad_Hatter jose – for me or you who can build a computer. These people buy a computer with an OS, and since Windows is the only OS most see in the stores, that’s what they get. If they get smart enough to buy a Mac, I don’t worry about them. Feb 03 03:38
jose “if they get smart enough…” Feb 03 03:38
jose help them get smart Feb 03 03:38
jose sell foss.. sell linux Feb 03 03:39
The_Mad_Hatter If they get smart enough to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed I don’t worry about them. Feb 03 03:39
jose they’ll like you Feb 03 03:39
jose no jerkiness about it Feb 03 03:39
jose sell linux sell foss, that is my point Feb 03 03:39
jose the two go together Feb 03 03:39
The_Mad_Hatter I am selling FOS. But I’m not telling them the truth about Microsoft, if I do, they’ll think I’m crazy. Feb 03 03:39
jose sell linux+foss. Feb 03 03:41
jose support linux+foss for free Feb 03 03:41
The_Mad_Hatter jose – one step at a time. If I can get them to use OO and Microsoft looses a sale, that’s good. Feb 03 03:41
jose that is what people do when they want to grow a platform.. Feb 03 03:42
jose microsoft has hurdles (through their partners) in linux’ path Feb 03 03:42
jose like i said, if you support windows, you help windows and microsoft and foss attacks Feb 03 03:42
jose if you support linux, you help linux and foss Feb 03 03:43
jose don’t mean to fight The_Mad_Hatter Feb 03 03:43
jose keep doing what works for you Feb 03 03:43
The_Mad_Hatter jose – I’m quite happy to support Linux, it’s just that the people I work with aren’t ready to jump yet. Feb 03 03:44
jose keep eating ice cream in their face, and one day they too will want to try it. Feb 03 03:44
jose linux+foss = ice cream Feb 03 03:44
jose winfoss perversion is like spilling it on them Feb 03 03:45
jose :-P Feb 03 03:45
The_Mad_Hatter Heh. Feb 03 03:45
jose really i don’t mean to fight. …I really just don’t like to support Microsoft in any way. Monopolysoft and FOSS don’t mix Feb 03 03:46
jose good luck Feb 03 03:46
jose i came to see if roy was in the mood to read something.. seeing he is sleeping now, and i need to do similarly, i’ll be leaving soon. Feb 03 03:47
The_Mad_Hatter I should consider crashing too. Getting late here. Feb 03 03:47
jose well you and oiaohm, …gn Feb 03 03:48
jose “you” -> “to you” Feb 03 03:48
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oiaohm Boy jose did not under stand that showing them foss is part of making the smart. Feb 03 04:12
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schestowitz Morning. Feb 03 09:14
ZiggyFish afternoon Feb 03 09:14
*schestowitz catches up Feb 03 09:15
schestowitz *LOL* ” keep eating ice cream in their face, and one day they too will want to try it. linux+foss = ice cream” Feb 03 09:17
ZiggyFish lol Feb 03 09:17
ZiggyFish I use linux exclusively at work Feb 03 09:17
ZiggyFish (am the only one in the office that uses Linux(Ubuntu)) Feb 03 09:18
schestowitz I just think of the programs… KDE and all. Many GNU/Linux distros come with that, so I’m hooked at home & work. Feb 03 09:18
schestowitz Mandriva Spring Live CD in case I travel.. Feb 03 09:18
ZiggyFish I keep showing them all the stuff Linux can do, and they are impressed Feb 03 09:19
schestowitz ZiggyFish: the engineers at Fox all use Ubuntu Feb 03 09:19
ZiggyFish didn’t know that Feb 03 09:19
schestowitz Ubuntu = you get work done; Windows = you try to keep the PC clean and the data safe from intruders (without much success) Feb 03 09:20
ZiggyFish yes Feb 03 09:20
schestowitz http://blog.eracc.com/2008/04/28/guess-wh… Feb 03 09:21
schestowitz “Mr. Denis stated that Fox News is now aware of the problem with  their Video page and is working with Maven Networks to get it fixed. Mr.  Denis also stated that most of the Fox News developers use Ubuntu. “ Feb 03 09:21
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MinceR r4wr Feb 03 09:34
MinceR (offtopic) http://media.richarddawkins.net/i… Feb 03 09:50
schestowitz :-) Feb 03 09:52
ZiggyFish Today the Australian Government announced $42 Billion Recession plan. (which means that I get $950 in march from the government) Feb 03 09:52
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schestowitz MinceR: I think it’s a social issue more than one of religion. Feb 03 09:52
MinceR well, religion itself is a social issue Feb 03 09:53
schestowitz ZiggyFish: where does the $$ come from? Feb 03 09:53
schestowitz Do they just ‘print’ it? Feb 03 09:53
schestowitz Religion sometimes captured people who share a pain, interest, etc. Feb 03 09:53
ZiggyFish schestowitz: it will also mean that Australia will be in dept Feb 03 09:54
schestowitz debt? Feb 03 09:56
ZiggyFish I’ll try to find an article on it Feb 03 09:57
schestowitz That’s just a short-term solution. Like throwing a credit card at a person who is broke Feb 03 09:57
ZiggyFish http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/… Feb 03 09:59
ZiggyFish schestowitz: around December, the government gave the unemployed something like $1500 (if I remember correctly). Feb 03 10:03
ZiggyFish and it was only to the unemployed (ie people living off of Centerlink) Feb 03 10:03
schestowitz Hehe. Feb 03 10:04
schestowitz “out of recession” Feb 03 10:04
schestowitz They still use just the “R” word Feb 03 10:04
ZiggyFish the Australian Reserve bank also dropped there rate by a full percent Feb 03 10:05
ZiggyFish now down to 3.25 Feb 03 10:06
schestowitz National bank. Are there private ones? Feb 03 10:08
ZiggyFish yeah, I think so Feb 03 10:09
schestowitz I’ve just posted more links in BN Feb 03 10:10
ZiggyFish nice, thanks Feb 03 10:10
*ZiggyFish like links Feb 03 10:11
schestowitz I can’t find my own posts Feb 03 10:35
schestowitz I’ve spent 5 minutes trying to find a picture I have… *sigh Feb 03 10:35
ZiggyFish http://boycottnovell.com/ ;) Feb 03 10:36
schestowitz I have given up Feb 03 10:41
schestowitz I’m trying to find a chart of market share Feb 03 10:42
schestowitz I made it some months ago Feb 03 10:42
schestowitz http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=moz… Feb 03 10:42
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ZiggyFish what type of market share (OS or browser) Feb 03 10:45
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ZiggyFish http://boycottnovell.com/category/linspire/ on OSes, or http://boycottnovell.com/2008/10/21/… on browers Feb 03 10:46
schestowitz I give up Feb 03 10:47
schestowitz I spent 15 minutes in vain. Feb 03 10:51
*schestowitz timed out (reset by beer) Feb 03 10:51
ZiggyFish lol Feb 03 10:52
ZiggyFish sounds like a good idea Feb 03 10:52
ZiggyFish although I only have Jack ATM Feb 03 10:53
schestowitz It didn’t even take me this long to make the picture Feb 03 10:53
ZiggyFish lol Feb 03 10:53
schestowitz But you feel so close to finding it and you must make the wasted time feel not like a lost pursuit. It’s a psychological thing. Feb 03 10:53
ZiggyFish yes Feb 03 10:54
ZiggyFish but as soon as you move away from the problem for some reason, the answer always comes to you Feb 03 10:54
ZiggyFish it’s like you always find something your not looking for Feb 03 10:55
schestowitz In this case, I don’t know which words to search on Feb 03 10:59
schestowitz I can’t help it, I’m still searching. Feb 03 11:01
ZiggyFish lol Feb 03 11:01
schestowitz I’m just wasting my time.. Feb 03 11:04
ZiggyFish time for some ice cream Feb 03 11:05
schestowitz The longer I go, the worse it gets Feb 03 11:06
schestowitz More chronic Feb 03 11:06
schestowitz http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource… Feb 03 11:07
schestowitz Sigh Feb 03 11:07
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ZiggyFish a`nice Feb 03 11:13
NZheretic One quick point and note …http://bsd.slashdot.org/article… Feb 03 11:13
NZheretic When Microsoft sold Xenix ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix ) to the Santa Cruz Operation ( Not the current SCO Group ), wasn’t there a Non-compete clause in the agreement? I thought that Microsoft was not allowed to sell any Unix based operating system – and that would include any NetBSD derivative. Feb 03 11:14
schestowitz YES! Feb 03 11:14
schestowitz I found it Feb 03 11:14
schestowitz While looking at http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&amp… Feb 03 11:14
ZiggyFish nice Feb 03 11:14
ZiggyFish lol Feb 03 11:15
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Feb 03 11:15
schestowitz This was a response to Digg Feb 03 11:15
schestowitz Someone posted the very same chart with shares reversed (desktop lies) Feb 03 11:16
ZiggyFish I find it interesting that the percentage of Linux desktops directly relates to the percentage of Linux Desktops in shops Feb 03 11:18
ZiggyFish googles market share: 81.48% Feb 03 11:25
ZiggyFish nice Feb 03 11:25
NZheretic http://gdamore.blogspot.com/2008/1… Feb 03 11:28
schestowitz “Australia today was the venue for the first of a series of events around the globe to launch Skype for Windows 4.0, described by Dan Neary Skype’s VP and general manager Asia Pacific as “probably the most significant launch in Skype’s five-year history.”” http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23023/1231/ Feb 03 11:28
NZheretic “Strong understanding of the NetBSD/GNU software development process “ Feb 03 11:28
schestowitz Ripping off more network stacks? Feb 03 11:28
*oob (n=oob@125-236-204-237.adsl.xtra.co.nz) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 03 11:31
oob good morning Feb 03 11:31
ZiggyFish good evening Feb 03 11:32
oob g’day ziggyfish Feb 03 11:32
ZiggyFish in 3 1/2 hours i can say good morning ;/) Feb 03 11:33
ZiggyFish oob: heh Feb 03 11:33
oob you could say it now, it just wouldn’t be true. but then, veracity isn’t an aussie strong suit eh?  :) Feb 03 11:33
NZheretic schestowitz: just GCC and GPL’ed build tools, not the first time either – see http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?si… Feb 03 11:34
NZheretic http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html Feb 03 11:34
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oob i discovered only today that jeff waugh had resigned from the gnome board, in december. i wonder if anyone can tell me why this was and wha he’s up to now? Feb 03 11:38
schestowitz I didn’t know this Feb 03 11:39
oob http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-announ… Feb 03 11:40
*ZiggyFish don’t like lying Feb 03 11:40
schestowitz oob: is there anything that canbe cited? Feb 03 11:40
schestowitz Oh Feb 03 11:40
oob then there’s a comment on his partner’s blog, which makes mention of a move and a new adventure; Feb 03 11:41
oob http://pipka.org/blog/2008/12/23/moving/#comments Feb 03 11:41
*NZheretic has quit (“Backup completed, sleep now.”) Feb 03 11:43
schestowitz oob: I’m writing about it now Feb 03 11:45
oob scoop me Feb 03 11:45
oob i want to feast upon the gory details Feb 03 11:47
schestowitz I keep it short Feb 03 11:51
schestowitz I don’t want to aggravate Feb 03 11:51
oob why not? it’s an opportunity to encourage gnome to rejoin the ranks as a good citizen. Feb 03 11:52
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/03/… Feb 03 11:54
schestowitz oob: leaving it for someone else to do Feb 03 11:54
schestowitz I saw absolutely nothing about this until you said it (and I follow the news super-closely) Feb 03 11:54
oob the timing and the lack of detail suggests to me a push as opposed to a jump Feb 03 11:55
oob i see the stormy peters has been blogging recently on the necessity to improve marketing and on gnome-mobile Feb 03 11:58
oob http://www.stormyscorner.com… Feb 03 11:58
oob http://www.stormyscorner.com/2009/01/gnome-mob… Feb 03 11:58
oob these are two areas where one might question waugh’s contribution Feb 03 11:59
oob all supposition of course. Feb 03 11:59
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has left #boycottnovell Feb 03 12:00
schestowitz oob: yes Feb 03 12:03
schestowitz I was gonna ask about Peters Feb 03 12:03
oob my views is that a certain amount of penitence is in order. i want to be convinced that the sins of the past are repented and won’t be repeated Feb 03 12:04
oob a crucifixion could achieve that nicely Feb 03 12:08
oob but the devil will be in the details Feb 03 12:08
oob which at this point, are sadly lacking Feb 03 12:08
schestowitz oob: I could link to old incident Feb 03 12:16
schestowitz We probably have like 50 posts where Waugh was confronted Feb 03 12:16
schestowitz Montly from 2007 Feb 03 12:16
schestowitz *Mostly Feb 03 12:16
oob oh, i think his prevarication is well documented and well known Feb 03 12:18
oob and widely resented Feb 03 12:19
oob but these are personality flaws Feb 03 12:19
oob i’m more interested in itemising the harm he has caused in his official capacity Feb 03 12:19
oob representing microsoft and novell’s interests at the expense of F/OSS Feb 03 12:20
oob that waugh receives his well-overdue comeuppance is secondary to gnome changing its direction Feb 03 12:24
schestowitz Are you affiliated with GNOME? Feb 03 12:24
oob nope Feb 03 12:24
schestowitz I like Stormy. She’s ok Feb 03 12:24
schestowitz But she is affiliated with bad company Feb 03 12:24
oob i wonder what murray cummings knows Feb 03 12:25
schestowitz H-P (Microsoft lackeys) and OpenLogic (headed by former Softie, sponsored by Microsoft). Feb 03 12:25
oob and is prepared to volunteer. do you know him? Feb 03 12:25
schestowitz I know what he said about Jeff Feb 03 12:25
oob oh yes i’m aware of her allegiances Feb 03 12:25
schestowitz Drove the Waughs into depression, methinks Feb 03 12:26
oob i do too, which is why i wonder if he might be both informed and prepared to inform Feb 03 12:26
*r0ver (n=r0ver@ has joined #boycottnovell Feb 03 12:29
schestowitz Can you ask him? Feb 03 12:30
schestowitz I don’t know him personally. Feb 03 12:30
oob i don’t know him Feb 03 12:30
oob ah Feb 03 12:31
oob he’s your compatriot i think Feb 03 12:31
oob perhaps you could buy him a pint Feb 03 12:31
schestowitz He’s in England? Feb 03 12:32
oob UK Mobile: +44 (0) 7971 226563 Feb 03 12:33
oob seems he resides in germany Feb 03 12:33
oob but he is indeed your compatriot. you could get together and bitch about uppity colonials Feb 03 12:35
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    SUEPO, the largest staff union of the European Patent Office, shows signs of strength rather than signs of weakness amidst attacks on the staff and a lot of media coverage, political interventions, and much more


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