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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 5th, 2009

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:59 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

schestowitz Another anti-Linux talking point (the Vista7 BS/pitch): http://www.fmtech.co.za/?p=10861 Feb 05 00:00
balzac I like that guy, Schwarz Feb 05 00:00
balzac I think it was him who bandied the idea of releasing Solaris under GPLv3 Feb 05 00:00
balzac but it didn’t happen Feb 05 00:00
schestowitz It’s one of those articles that predicts Linux dying Feb 05 00:01
balzac I guess you’ve got to answer to your share-holders Feb 05 00:01
schestowitz These authors should be ashamed of themselves for being mini-ballmers Feb 05 00:01
balzac hilarious Feb 05 00:01
balzac the first sentence was laughable Feb 05 00:01
balzac With Microsoft readying itself for the release of a fast, streamlined operating system in Windows 7, the Linux community needs to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat if the free and open-source operating system is to stay relevant on desktop computers. Feb 05 00:02
balzac I didn’t know Mark Shuttleworth was a billionaire. Feb 05 00:02
balzac Lucky dog. Feb 05 00:02
balzac Ubuntu, the most popular version of Linux — its development is funded by SA-born billionaire Mark Shuttleworth — is looking increasingly dated. Feb 05 00:03
balzac Next to Windows 7 and Apple’s Mac OS X, Ubuntu and other Linuxes are looking old fashioned. Feb 05 00:03
balzac yeah, whatever. Feb 05 00:03
balzac I’m looking forward to the final humiliation of the proprietary software vendors. I’m sick of their crap. Feb 05 00:04
balzac The lesson they refuse to learn is this: don’t be chickenshit. Feb 05 00:04
balzac chickenshit software licensing, chickenshit DRM, chickenshit interfaces, chickenshit support – proprietary software has it in spades. Feb 05 00:05
balzac For instance – Apple’s iphone – the things they put customers through for wanting to “jail-break” their phones. Feb 05 00:06
balzac I remember when Apple had this commercial of this woman in small red shorts throwing a hammer through a giant TV screen – sticking it to the man, breaking totalitarianism. Feb 05 00:07
balzac Then there was a recent story about young customers of Apple iPhones who were arrested for “jail-breaking” their iphones. DMCA chickenshit, served by Apple. Feb 05 00:07
balzac Orwellian, DMCA bullshit. Feb 05 00:07
schestowitz Sigh: http://groundstate.ca/node/1260 Feb 05 00:08
schestowitz balzac: yes, many people think Mark S is a millionaire Feb 05 00:09
schestowitz No idea as to why Feb 05 00:09
schestowitz balzac: judging Ubuntu based on a theme? :-) Feb 05 00:09
balzac The last thing I read about Shuttleworth’s money was about him making a killing with his Thawte company. Feb 05 00:09
balzac After that, I heard about him spending his money, Canonical operating at a loss while gaining market share. Feb 05 00:10
schestowitz balzac: yes, I know that advert Feb 05 00:10
schestowitz There’s one of it in YouTube where the woman is labeled PJ Feb 05 00:10
balzac PJ – in reference to what? Feb 05 00:11
schestowitz Let me find it Feb 05 00:11
schestowitz I can’t find it Feb 05 00:12
*NotZed (i=966564ee@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b28688bbb1691da3) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 05 00:14
schestowitz I think BN will crash tomorrow morning. Feb 05 00:15
schestowitz I’ll need to set up redirections before I go to sleep Feb 05 00:15
balzac you ought to put it on slicehost Feb 05 00:15
schestowitz We’re moving Feb 05 00:16
balzac and put it on Drupal instead of WordPress Feb 05 00:16
schestowitz Maybe to a bigger server on the same host Feb 05 00:16
schestowitz But not just yet Feb 05 00:16
schestowitz No, no Drupal Feb 05 00:16
balzac why not? Feb 05 00:16
schestowitz I’ve been hardcore with WP since 2004 Feb 05 00:16
NotZed morning Feb 05 00:16
balzac wordpress is for blogs more than for community sites. Feb 05 00:16
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balzac Suppose Novell goes under in the near future, would you rebrand the site and make a community site for free software enthusiasts? Feb 05 00:17
Omar87 schestowitz: Hi Feb 05 00:17
balzac morning NotZed Feb 05 00:17
schestowitz This is the type of post people don’t just skip after reading the headline, so if it makes FP, it’ll be trouble (host suspension): http://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft… Feb 05 00:17
schestowitz balzac: sure. Feb 05 00:18
schestowitz That’s sort of what happens to GL Feb 05 00:18
schestowitz Shills Galore today Feb 05 00:18
balzac well, Drupal is more suitable for community sites than wordpress. WordPress is more of a blogging tool. Feb 05 00:18
schestowitz Now I’m seeing the Gralla shill provoking Linux some more.. caling for IExpoloder.exe for Linux Feb 05 00:19
schestowitz balzac: I can install things alongside WP Feb 05 00:19
Omar87 schestowitz: I just love it when people keep saying stuff like “I use Apple because they make the best software, and I go to where the best software is” ! :D Feb 05 00:19
schestowitz In schestowitz.com I have heaps of software of many kinds.. but it’s a patching nightmare Feb 05 00:19
schestowitz Omar87: it’s marketing Feb 05 00:20
balzac Roy, you want one general-purpose application which can do everything. That is Drupal. Feb 05 00:20
Omar87 schestowitz: .. and stand-up comedy too, lol! :) Feb 05 00:20
balzac so you only have one user table for all purposes Feb 05 00:20
NotZed people stick to decisions they’ve made too, even in the face of large amounts of evifdence.  like roy and wp ;-) Feb 05 00:20
schestowitz Some people have iguanas as pets Feb 05 00:20
schestowitz Some people treat their ipod like part of their body Feb 05 00:21
balzac Drupal actually has a command-line tool for updating modules like aptitude Feb 05 00:21
balzac Roy, if I had as much traffic as you and shane have at BN, you can bet that I’d be building a community site out of it. Feb 05 00:22
schestowitz balzac: I already have what I need in WP. I also have some code holding things together Feb 05 00:22
balzac I’d want people to sign up with accounts Feb 05 00:22
balzac build up your user base Feb 05 00:22
balzac give them avatars Feb 05 00:22
schestowitz balzac: in the Wiki maybe… then there’s IRC Feb 05 00:22
balzac let them rate each others commentary Feb 05 00:22
balzac up or down voting on all commentary Feb 05 00:23
schestowitz But the Wiki wasn’t annonced yet. It’s too messy. maybe next month. Feb 05 00:23
balzac I’d turn that sucker into the most gnarly free software community online. Feb 05 00:23
NotZed for all the hits, you get very few comments Feb 05 00:23
balzac Roy, who else as principled as you has as much traffic? Feb 05 00:23
schestowitz NotZed: lots of people read archives Feb 05 00:23
schestowitz Archives have comments closed Feb 05 00:23
schestowitz balzac: FSF does 80k pages/day Feb 05 00:24
schestowitz We do about 30k+ this month Feb 05 00:24
balzac there big “open source” and “linux” websites, but as far as those who are ideologically-aligned with Free Software, your site is pretty high profile, so why not treat your guests to a whole lot more features? Feb 05 00:24
NotZed ahh.  fwiw i usually comment as ‘mike/michael’ or ‘mpz’ Feb 05 00:24
balzac Yeah, but they’re using Plone for the FSF website Feb 05 00:25
balzac not that interactive Feb 05 00:25
balzac Roy, the holy grail of online communities is to maximize traffic and interactivity at the same time Feb 05 00:26
balzac the maximum number of concurrent users plus the maximum level of interactivity Feb 05 00:26
balzac that’s the recipe for Slashdot, Reddit, Digg, etc. Feb 05 00:26
schestowitz NotZed: oh, I wonder who michael was Feb 05 00:26
schestowitz balzac: there’s already the daily links Feb 05 00:27
NotZed i kinda forget what name i use, depending on one of 3 machines i’m on at the time Feb 05 00:27
balzac Roy, the most important thing for users is to be able to lash out at each other. Feb 05 00:27
schestowitz balzac: you want comment modding? It adds very little. Feb 05 00:27
schestowitz It’s just numbers Feb 05 00:27
schestowitz I thought about closing comments Feb 05 00:27
NotZed really?  that turned me off slashdot Feb 05 00:27
schestowitz But the trolling levels declines recently. Feb 05 00:28
balzac Slashdot’s modding is medievil Feb 05 00:28
NotZed flamewars about nothing Feb 05 00:28
balzac Digg sucks too Feb 05 00:28
schestowitz Yes Feb 05 00:28
schestowitz I don’t like /. Feb 05 00:28
schestowitz I feel like I’m polices by PR people Feb 05 00:28
balzac the way you need to implement it is so that people can read the names of those who’ve down-rated them Feb 05 00:28
balzac or up-rated Feb 05 00:28
schestowitz I’d rather have my comments blocked from referencing in reply or modding Feb 05 00:28
schestowitz It leave you vulnerable to people Feb 05 00:28
schestowitz Same with post modding a la ZeeDeeGates.com Feb 05 00:29
balzac well, not everyone is prepared to deal with the inevitable up-risings against the moderator Feb 05 00:29
schestowitz :-S http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/2009/02/02/my… Feb 05 00:29
balzac Change.gov let us rate comments, but it didn’t let us see how others were rating us Feb 05 00:29
balzac it’s a powerful thing, but I don’t know why most sites don’t implement it correctly. Feb 05 00:30
balzac Digg doesn’t get it, but it still manages to excite people. Feb 05 00:30
NotZed ratings can be manipulated too easily Feb 05 00:31
NotZed its like non-verified voting Feb 05 00:31
balzac NotZed: who cares? you can find the patterns of ratings-abuse and ban the lusers. Feb 05 00:32
NotZed sounds like a really fun job .. Feb 05 00:32
schestowitz balzac: “Sibyl Systems, a Central New York based IT solutions provider and subcontracting firm today announced that it will exclusively distribute Ubuntu for all future linux deployments.” http://pr-usa.net/index.php?option=com_content&a… Feb 05 00:34
schestowitz ba Feb 05 00:35
schestowitz balzac: I’d rather have discussion that Pigeon-rank-like modding Feb 05 00:35
balzac NotZed: it’s easy to do, especially for someone as paranoid as Roy. Once you’ve been the target of an astroturf smear-campaign, it’s not hard to see when it happens. Feb 05 00:35
schestowitz Modding is subjective thing given context/audience  as well Feb 05 00:35
schestowitz Me? Paranoid? Feb 05 00:35
balzac schestowitz: sure it’s subjective, and it creates numerical rank, but it also provides an internal social currency which is vital to an online community. Feb 05 00:36
schestowitz http://securepoint.com/lists/… : -) Feb 05 00:36
schestowitz “It’s not paranoia if they’re really after you” Feb 05 00:36
balzac Roy, not really paranoid, but wary of getting “astroturfed” in an organized character attack. Feb 05 00:37
NotZed i dunno, when i used /. i used to expand all comments.  i can’t say it added much having only high rated comments visible – the thread is more important than  individual messages Feb 05 00:37
NotZed (s/important/entertaining/) Feb 05 00:38
balzac NotZed: /. is too M$-friendly Feb 05 00:38
NotZed balzac: it didn’t used to be and i haven’t used it for about a year., i just don’t think moderation added much Feb 05 00:39
schestowitz balzac: Slashdot is filled with MS PR people Feb 05 00:39
schestowitz Someone senior from /, told me this privately Feb 05 00:39
balzac NotZed: that’s because Slashdot has a VERY clumsy implementation of user moderation Feb 05 00:40
schestowitz “Why are you not NICE to Microsoft!!?” Feb 05 00:40
balzac Roy, it doesn’t surprise me at all. Feb 05 00:40
NotZed it also attracted fanboys who liked to stir the pot, early on Feb 05 00:41
balzac fanboys and flame-wars are good for an online community Feb 05 00:41
NotZed balzac: is there an example of a system which works better? Feb 05 00:41
balzac yes Feb 05 00:41
balzac DailyKos has it down almost perfectly. Feb 05 00:41
balzac you want up or down rating and you want to show the names of who rated you up or down, implemented with AJAX and DHTML Feb 05 00:42
balzac the closest you can get to that is Drupal with a module called Drigg Feb 05 00:42
balzac Add some AJAX and DHTML to Drigg’s presentation layer and you’ve got the best system available. Feb 05 00:43
schestowitz balzac: not at this strage Feb 05 00:43
schestowitz If we get more comments, then it becomes necessary Feb 05 00:44
balzac That makes it so when you get modded down into oblivion, you can see who did it. Then you can confront them and say “e tu brutus”? Feb 05 00:44
benJIman schestowitz: FYI The “Novell Pretends Employees…” headline is incorrect since it was not a comment made by a Novell employee. Feb 05 00:44
NotZed i dunno, isn’t it better reading a reply that adds to the discussion rather than just a ‘yay/nay’? Feb 05 00:44
balzac NotZed: the ratings allow users to “act against” other users, not merely to write a response. Feb 05 00:44
balzac Hey, you dragged my social credibility down a notch! That’s not fair. Now I’m going to retaliate! Here’s a down-rating for you~ Feb 05 00:45
balzac Then you get little factions forming of people who support each other Feb 05 00:45
balzac that’s the life-blood of online community Feb 05 00:46
NotZed sounds a bit like bullying to me.  by gangs :) Feb 05 00:46
balzac exactly Feb 05 00:46
schestowitz balzac: who made the comment? Feb 05 00:47
balzac you’ve got to have bullies, cry-babies, it takes all kinds Feb 05 00:47
schestowitz ““I removed the statement about my departure having nothing to do with the deal. It was a false statement made without consulting me.” Feb 05 00:47
NotZed i’d find that personally distasteful, but each to their own i guess Feb 05 00:47
balzac schestowitz: in my hypothetical conversation? Feb 05 00:47
balzac NotZed: you don’t have to be a bully or a victim, you can have dignity while others do not. But you want all kinds of people in an online community. Feb 05 00:48
schestowitz balzac: flamewars don’t helps Feb 05 00:48
schestowitz Or mod wars for that matter Feb 05 00:48
schestowitz It’s a distraction Feb 05 00:48
balzac Roy, they do help. It’s not a distraction, it’s a draw. Feb 05 00:48
NotZed i guess i’d rather evaluate comments on their merit, rather than wanting to   conform to a particular group-think or popularity Feb 05 00:48
schestowitz Like two kids spitting at each others… using their mouths not for coversation Feb 05 00:48
schestowitz *other Feb 05 00:48
balzac When I was campaigning for impeachment, it was useful to have these assholes from the opposing side argue against my ideas, because it created heat, controversy, and drew more people into the flame war. Feb 05 00:49
schestowitz benJIman: who made the comment? Feb 05 00:49
schestowitz balzac: I did the autocomplete wrongly there. Feb 05 00:49
balzac Roy, sometimes you’re not going to convince the guy who is spitting at you, but you might convince someone else who is observing the debate if you slam your opponent hard enough. Feb 05 00:49
benJIman schestowitz: Did you not get the quote from the wiki? If only wikis had some sort of history. Feb 05 00:49
*benJIman sleeps. Feb 05 00:49
schestowitz See how “Dan O’Brian” vanished right after my comment about him posting from near Novell Feb 05 00:50
balzac There is value in theatrical conflicts. Feb 05 00:50
schestowitz It could be a Turf, but I don’t think so Feb 05 00:50
schestowitz The comments that are posted from inside the novell.com domain indicate that Novell /does/ stoop this low… since last year at least Feb 05 00:50
balzac Roy, you of all people must know there’s value in being confrontational. Feb 05 00:51
balzac It only made it juicier when the visting Novell astro-turfers were down-rating you at FSDaily.com Feb 05 00:51
balzac but they don’t show names on ratings of comments, only of blog postings. Feb 05 00:51
schestowitz Thery left Feb 05 00:52
schestowitz In shame maybe. Feb 05 00:52
NotZed or got told off by their bosses … Feb 05 00:54
balzac The most traffic I ever got for an opinion piece about software was when I called out Linus Torvalds for ankle-biting RMS. Feb 05 00:55
schestowitz They were opensuse people Feb 05 00:55
schestowitz Probably not Novell employees, except for at least 2 whose name I knew Feb 05 00:55
schestowitz People like benJIman who peddle opensuse even in a site like boycottnovell Feb 05 00:55
schestowitz I proobably got the most traffic for my articles in Datamation that made Digg and Slashdot FP Feb 05 00:56
balzac http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/community_pos… Feb 05 00:56
schestowitz The server at Jupitermedia doesn’t crash Feb 05 00:56
balzac On its way towards 10,000 reads Feb 05 00:56
schestowitz Linus reads Linux news sites Feb 05 00:56
balzac Thankfully LinuxToday.com picked it up Feb 05 00:56
schestowitz It’s likely he read this stuff too Feb 05 00:57
schestowitz He surfs quietly… Groklaw, Linux.com.. Feb 05 00:57
balzac yeah, I’m hoping he did Feb 05 00:57
NotZed yes controversy == hits.  but thats why you get so much crap in zdnet, but does it really add any value? Feb 05 00:57
balzac NotZed: controversy is productive Feb 05 00:57
balzac it’s the lack of controversy which kills Feb 05 00:57
schestowitz Facts are more useful Feb 05 00:57
schestowitz When you read a study you want the facts Feb 05 00:58
balzac controversy is not necessarily devoid of facts Feb 05 00:58
schestowitz I posted this some hours ago: Feb 05 00:58
schestowitz http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/20… Feb 05 00:58
balzac I never want to be on the losing side of controversy, so I make sure to be accurate. Feb 05 00:58
NotZed balzac: /. used to piss me of when the self-important little kid writing the headline would add something just to rankle the readership Feb 05 00:59
schestowitz Used to? Feb 05 01:00
balzac NotZed: for me, it depends on whether or not there is any value to be had in the confrontation Feb 05 01:00
schestowitz They still do it Feb 05 01:00
NotZed like i said i haven’t read it in about a year … ;-) Feb 05 01:00
schestowitz The editors I worked for do it Feb 05 01:00
schestowitz Obnoxious trolls Feb 05 01:00
balzac There is little value when you’re trolled within an authoritarian structure which will just squash any populist uprising. Feb 05 01:00
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/31… Feb 05 01:00
schestowitz I wanted to write pro-Linux headline Feb 05 01:01
NotZed obviously – but you’d just get flamewars about how biased they were.  where’s the poroductivity in that? Feb 05 01:01
balzac Slashdot never drew me in because the game is too complicated and not rewarding enough. Feb 05 01:01
schestowitz Then they asked to change it to something that provoke fear and emotion Feb 05 01:01
schestowitz Boo!!! **Will** Linux succeed this year?? Feb 05 01:01
balzac NotZed: it’s about forming identity groups so you can get traction. Feb 05 01:01
balzac It’s about personalities Feb 05 01:01
balzac I read slashdot’s headlines, but I don’t participate because it’s not a well designed interface. Feb 05 01:02
balzac Roy, you should think about Drupal 6 with Drigg Feb 05 01:03
balzac And think about how you want to rebrand if Novell goes down like SCO di. Feb 05 01:03
balzac btw, fear and emotion are ok. It’s being oppressed and deceived which is not ok. Feb 05 01:04
NotZed that confontational stuff turns off people.  /. news reporting failed a long time ago too – late/old stories, lots of press releases, just rubbish and multiple reports of the same thing Feb 05 01:05
NotZed (turns off some people) Feb 05 01:05
balzac NotZed: then why do all these guys flock to World of WarCraft? Feb 05 01:06
balzac confrontation is entertaining Feb 05 01:06
balzac verbal confrontation is fine too Feb 05 01:06
NotZed there’s more people in the world who don’t ;-) Feb 05 01:06
schestowitz balzac: how to migrate content? Feb 05 01:07
balzac My only point is this – I struggled for traffic over a long period of time. If you’ve got some decent traffic, don’t squander it. Roll out the red carpet for your site visitors and make your site sticky. Feb 05 01:08
balzac Roy, don’t migrate content, just leave your old site intact and available under the archives. Feb 05 01:08
balzac migrate users only Feb 05 01:08
schestowitz balzac: that’s possible Feb 05 01:09
NotZed yeah, i see your point.  after working in free software the last thing i wanted was more luserss! Feb 05 01:09
schestowitz But a better option is this: Feb 05 01:09
schestowitz Maintain two sections, merge RSS Feb 05 01:09
schestowitz Wiki is decent for participation by manu Feb 05 01:09
schestowitz *by many Feb 05 01:09
schestowitz But a news feed like Wikinews is still needed Feb 05 01:09
balzac the wiki should be migrated into Drupal which has modules to support wiki-style editing and nodes Feb 05 01:09
schestowitz No, no.. Feb 05 01:10
schestowitz I like it as it is Feb 05 01:10
balzac you want users to only have to have one user account to make use of everything your site offers Feb 05 01:10
schestowitz No Drupal Feb 05 01:10
balzac Drupal can be a wiki, forum, blog, shop, role player game, etc. Feb 05 01:10
balzac Roy, what’s so great about the wiki software you’re using? Feb 05 01:11
balzac would I need to make an account for your wiki in order to use it? Feb 05 01:12
balzac The best case is to have openID so I don’t even have to make an account for your site, but supposing I do make an account for your site, I should get the forum access and wiki access from the same user account. Feb 05 01:12
balzac make it easy Feb 05 01:12
balzac It’s good that there’s only a captcha in the way, as it is. I don’t like being forced to make an account. Feb 05 01:13
NotZed agree on that one.  sick of creating so many accounts Feb 05 01:14
balzac Oh well, the developer of my favorite Drupal module says he’s quit Drupal Feb 05 01:16
balzac because of internal politics Feb 05 01:16
balzac That’s a shame if it’s true because his module was the one I like the most out of all of them. Feb 05 01:16
schestowitz balzac: for now, there’s no Wiki vandalism Feb 05 01:16
schestowitz So anyone can edit Feb 05 01:16
schestowitz It’s easy to view and manage edits Feb 05 01:16
schestowitz balzac: people come and go Feb 05 01:17
balzac Well, I’ve got to try and talk him out of quitting. Feb 05 01:17
balzac It’s a very important module to me. Feb 05 01:17
schestowitz In 5 years of WP-hackers I’ve seen different faces each year. It’s like devs have a ‘shelt life’ Feb 05 01:17
schestowitz *shelf Feb 05 01:18
NotZed its easy to get burnt out on free software projects Feb 05 01:18
balzac Well, the secret is that people need to shield their egos because community politics will find a way to rub your ego raw and then squeeze a lemon on it. Feb 05 01:18
NotZed … while users are pulling on your hair Feb 05 01:19
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schestowitz NotZed: so FOSS developers go out of FOSS or go bald? Feb 05 01:21
balzac I’m bald already Feb 05 01:21
NotZed if you just want to work on something fun, dealing with poltics and community is a real drag Feb 05 01:21
balzac And i’m only getting started Feb 05 01:21
balzac alright guys, I’m out Feb 05 01:21
balzac ttyl Feb 05 01:21
NotZed haha Feb 05 01:21
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NotZed i’ve just got a high forehead :) Feb 05 01:22
NotZed is there any particular reason you dont like drupal? Feb 05 01:24
schestowitz It’s another CMS. Feb 05 01:27
schestowitz I don’t want too much to maintain Feb 05 01:27
NotZed ok, fair enough. Feb 05 01:33
schestowitz It might change Feb 05 01:34
schestowitz I want to finish some COmes laundry first Feb 05 01:34
NotZed it’s been pretty interesting Feb 05 01:35
schestowitz We’ve already done 3.5 GB today and the day is not over (9pm) Feb 05 01:36
schestowitz The growing pains have recently been just technical (server loads) Feb 05 01:37
NotZed i guess it isn’t really designed for that sort of load Feb 05 01:47
schestowitz Here”s the strange thing Feb 05 01:50
schestowitz Say they give you a hosted account Feb 05 01:50
schestowitz 500GB bandwidth/month Feb 05 01:50
schestowitz If you don’t even go near it, how can it be named “abuse” or “far too much”? Feb 05 01:50
schestowitz It’s like they give a high quote and it can’t even be reached becuase they then start complaining Feb 05 01:51
schestowitz gn Feb 05 01:58
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Ziggyfish god afternoon (just by 15 mins Feb 05 02:10
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NotZed hmm, that sucks.  are they measuring something else?  they probably have some clause which specifies ‘unreasable load’ or somessuch Feb 05 02:25
Ziggyfish NotZed, more information Feb 05 02:36
NotZed oh something roy was talking about before, the provider not delivering Feb 05 02:41
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NotZed or complaining about bandwidth well before it was reached Feb 05 02:45
Ziggyfish hehe, Aussies OK pirated software for personal use <http://www.itnews.com.au/News/95586,aussies-ok…> Feb 05 02:48
Ziggyfish have a look who published the report? Feb 05 02:48
Ziggyfish Almost half of Australians believe it is okay to use pirated software for personal use, and many can’t tell the difference between genuine and illegal software, new research commissioned by Microsoft Australia shows. Feb 05 02:48
NotZed what a weird way to introduce office ‘genuine’ advantage Feb 05 02:50
NotZed “With security top-of-mind for Australians, it is a worrying statistic that almost half of those surveyed wouldn’t know how to check if their computer software was a genuine copy, thereby exposing themselves to the risk of security threats,” said Johns. Feb 05 02:57
NotZed hahahaha Feb 05 02:57
twitter security threat:  closed source software compiled by criminals in Redmond. Feb 05 03:08
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schestowitz Morning. Feb 05 08:39
amarsh04 hi schestowitz Feb 05 08:44
amarsh04 I was surprised that my federal mp actually replied to my reply to his bulk email of constituents last night Feb 05 08:45
schestowitz Yes, they sometimes do Feb 05 08:45
schestowitz Glyn Moody claims that they are more receptive than people realise Feb 05 08:46
amarsh04 they had a late night sitting until 5 am Feb 05 08:46
amarsh04 probably true Feb 05 08:46
schestowitz It also makes a difference Feb 05 08:46
schestowitz Government=people. Feb 05 08:46
amarsh04 yes Feb 05 08:46
amarsh04 I’ll see if my state mp replies to my last email to him… it gets a bit wearying when issues are divided amongst portfolios Feb 05 08:47
amarsh04 federal parliament was using both ms-exchange and postfix to get their email out Feb 05 08:50
amarsh04 with the Telstra issues, they have a machine that takes input from each of the carriers (themselves, singtel optus, nztel-owned aapt, primus…) and spits out 3 files, one for emergency services, one for directories and one for law enforcement. I’m still trying to get the details of my entries in that system Feb 05 08:52
amarsh04 btw, I still use noscript heavily, government sites often have stuff on them by google-analytics Feb 05 08:55
MinceR hay Feb 05 08:55
schestowitz That’s bizarre. Feb 05 08:55
schestowitz Government sites then not only spy on users Feb 05 08:56
schestowitz They also share their citizens’ more intimate details with an American company Feb 05 08:56
schestowitz Google Analytics can do too much Feb 05 08:56
amarsh04 that’s why I block google-analytics Feb 05 08:59
schestowitz It’s spyware on the Web. Feb 05 09:03
schestowitz Microsoft’s ripoff of this (Urchin) seems nowhere in sight Feb 05 09:03
amarsh04 funny, when I rang telstra to ask about their carrier licence, I reached someone who used to work at their emergency call centre… learned a few things that way Feb 05 09:12
amarsh04 my federal mp will also follow up about telstra’s carrier licence Feb 05 09:12
amarsh04 all sorts needed stuff doesn’t happen because of federal-state demarcations and government-private-enterprise demarcations Feb 05 09:13
schestowitz Testra is a friend of SteveB Feb 05 09:14
schestowitz *Tel Feb 05 09:14
amarsh04 yes it is Feb 05 09:14
amarsh04 my isp is run by someone who knows vax/vms inside out and isn’t beholden to microsoft Feb 05 09:15
amarsh04 nor is he beholden to big telcos Feb 05 09:17
amarsh04 interesting, pre-2002-SIM equipped gsm handsets can call 112 if they are out of range of their own carrier but in range of another carrier Feb 05 09:20
schestowitz I stopped using cellphones around 2002 (probably 2003) Feb 05 09:25
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schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNM… Feb 05 10:41
*amarsh04 can’t see the point of making more enemies by attacking .pk Feb 05 10:47
schestowitz Yes Feb 05 10:51
schestowitz I was actually curious by the idea of trying knock China against Russia Feb 05 10:51
schestowitz This reminded me of the wars and confrontations created in South America or even Iraq/Iran, with the US proving all the weapons for them to devastate one another. I can’t help but cynically think of “Microsoft evangelist” (Comes vs Microsoft) which advocates the same tactics of turning rivals against one another. Feb 05 10:52
schestowitz You create a new perception of an enemy (“Them”) to keep the competitors distracted… evil Apple, evil Google, the Soviets, communism,  Arabs, those “evil” Chinese, those “annoying” people who protest in the streets… keeping people hostile and divided take the heat off that who deflects it. Feb 05 10:54
amarsh04 from #groklaw on fdfnet.net:  “As someone has pointed out, Orwell’s 1984 was a cautionary tale; it wasn’t meant to be a how-to manual for dictatorial goons in Washington.” Feb 05 10:55
schestowitz Is Groklaw IRC still up? Was empty when I last checked.. Feb 05 10:58
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v… Feb 05 11:03
schestowitz http://prwatch.org/node/8191 Stealth Campaign for Stealth Fighter Jets Feb 05 11:14
schestowitz Michael J. Homer, Netscape Executive, Dies at 50 ,<<<<  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/t… >> Feb 05 11:18
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-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, I’m going to need to take down services (Nick,Chan,MemoServ etc) for a few moments to apply a tiny little fix. It shouldn’t take more than a couple of minutes and I’ll let you know when they’re back up again. Apologies for the inconvenience and have a good day! Feb 05 11:40
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-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, as promised I return services to you, I’m all done and they’re nearly as new! Have a good day and thank you for using freenode. Feb 05 11:45
schestowitz Wow! This is dynamite.  Steve Ballmer: “We cannot let intel do chip design on Linux ever” Feb 05 12:17
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… Feb 05 12:17
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schestowitz oiaohm: I found dynamite: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… Feb 05 12:38
schestowitz What what SteveB and BillG say about Linux Feb 05 12:38
schestowitz Hhhehe..  http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/upl… Feb 05 12:41
schestowitz Subject: Watch out! GNOME Do is a Mono application. < http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php… > Feb 05 12:53
oiaohm I have fun at moment IDing old 1999 Imacs for recycling for the elderly. Feb 05 12:53
MinceR fish tanks for the elderly? Feb 05 12:54
oiaohm They still work MinceR Feb 05 12:55
oiaohm Hopefully some of them are newer. Feb 05 12:55
MinceR oh, toys for the elderly. :> Feb 05 12:56
schestowitz oiaohm: what wares on em? Feb 05 12:56
oiaohm That is the fun bit they are clean. Feb 05 12:56
schestowitz Backpack-sized ipods with xmms :-D Feb 05 12:56
oiaohm And I do mean clean Feb 05 12:56
MinceR lol Feb 05 12:56
MinceR and another backpack for the battery? :> Feb 05 12:57
oiaohm You can run a IMAC G3 for a long time off a car battry. Feb 05 12:57
oiaohm Yes MS did basically give the server world to Linux. Feb 05 12:58
MinceR give? they never had it in the first place Feb 05 12:58
schestowitz UNIX Feb 05 12:58
schestowitz They count revenue Feb 05 12:58
oiaohm They did have a chance in 1999 to take Unix on head on MinceR Feb 05 12:59
schestowitz Here’s a plan: price up the server, trash Linux, charge $3000 for sh*ty win32 server.. Feb 05 12:59
schestowitz Then bribe IDC to count revenue Feb 05 12:59
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schestowitz claim Microsoft has ‘market share’ that’s ‘high’ Feb 05 12:59
schestowitz wb, zer0c00l Feb 05 12:59
MinceR oiaohm: well, they’ve failed Feb 05 12:59
zer0c00l schestowitz: did you see my mail? Feb 05 13:00
zer0c00l yeah Feb 05 13:00
oiaohm MinceR: they decided not to. Feb 05 13:02
oiaohm Intel had worked out exactly what need to be altered in NT so they could. Feb 05 13:02
schestowitz zer0c00l: yes, I replied (about 4 messages) Feb 05 13:02
MinceR oiaohm: i doubt they’d decide such a thing Feb 05 13:02
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:02
schestowitz We have some very powerful stuff that shows Microsoft’s attack on Linux through pressure on other companies Feb 05 13:02
zer0c00l oh ok Feb 05 13:03
oiaohm Yep nothing new but the documents are loss to prove it. Feb 05 13:03
MinceR the typical MICROS~1 approach isn’t that likely to work on servers anyway Feb 05 13:03
MinceR since what OEMs want to preinstall by default matters less Feb 05 13:03
MinceR and the admins are trained Feb 05 13:03
MinceR they tend to know what sort of choice they’re making (and that they’re making a choice at all) Feb 05 13:03
zer0c00l schestowitz: I will fetch text from http://boycottnovell.com/wp-c… Feb 05 13:12
schestowitz Wait.. Feb 05 13:12
zer0c00l you will get it tomorrow Feb 05 13:12
schestowitz I think we have more in another Feb 05 13:12
schestowitz 3 of them overalp Feb 05 13:12
schestowitz *overlap Feb 05 13:12
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:12
schestowitz This one is almost the same, but has more replies: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/upl… Feb 05 13:13
schestowitz This one is shorter: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content… One of them is 7-page long. Feb 05 13:13
schestowitz I think that http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… contains everything Feb 05 13:13
schestowitz Let me check Feb 05 13:13
zer0c00l ok i will wait Feb 05 13:13
schestowitz px06601.pdf : 7 pages Feb 05 13:14
schestowitz px06600.pdf : 6 pages Feb 05 13:14
schestowitz px06604.pdf : 5 pages Feb 05 13:14
schestowitz I’ll check how they overlap Feb 05 13:15
schestowitz These were scanned separately Feb 05 13:16
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:18
schestowitz OK, the report from Porter is always the same Feb 05 13:18
schestowitz The last 4 pages are virtually the same in all 3 Feb 05 13:19
schestowitz Shannon Perdue’s response is in al 3 as well. Feb 05 13:19
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:19
schestowitz Oh I see……. Feb 05 13:22
schestowitz So in px06604.pdf we need just one portion. Feb 05 13:22
schestowitz We need just the first E-mail. Feb 05 13:22
schestowitz The rest appears in other exhibits Feb 05 13:22
zer0c00l let me download both of them Feb 05 13:24
zer0c00l wait Feb 05 13:24
schestowitz In px06600.pdf we need just the first half of page 1. Feb 05 13:24
schestowitz Until the message from Stephanie, inclusive Feb 05 13:24
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:25
schestowitz Then we need the whole of px06601.pdf Feb 05 13:25
schestowitz That means that we pick up the whole thing without repetition Feb 05 13:25
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:26
schestowitz px06604.pdf: first message only Feb 05 13:26
schestowitz px06600.pdf : first 4 messages Feb 05 13:26
schestowitz px06601.pdf :  all messages Feb 05 13:26
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:27
zer0c00l do you want me to put all of them in a single pdf file? Feb 05 13:27
zer0c00l and what should be the order? Feb 05 13:27
schestowitz :-) Pearly Gates: “I asked our people many times if there is any backsliding on their not using Linux for this.” Feb 05 13:27
schestowitz zer0c00l: in roughly that oder, yes. Feb 05 13:28
schestowitz Thanks! :-) Feb 05 13:28
zer0c00l ok Feb 05 13:28
zer0c00l i will send it once i finish it Feb 05 13:29
zer0c00l btw they going open college on monday Feb 05 13:29
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schestowitz Thank you. Feb 05 13:30
schestowitz It’ll probably make some front pages Feb 05 13:31
zer0c00l oh ok Feb 05 13:31
MinceR “backsliding”? Feb 05 13:33
MinceR apparently m$ has its own language like co$ does Feb 05 13:33
schestowitz Like “tilt into death spiral” Feb 05 13:33
schestowitz Speaking of which: AOL’s Q4 Revenue Plummets, Drags Down Time Warner < http://www.pcworld.com/article/158917/aols_q4_rev… > Feb 05 13:33
schestowitz Good! Feb 05 13:33
schestowitz Media companies in the pockets of centres of power Feb 05 13:33
schestowitz Next thing you know they’ll ask for bailout “because we need to keep the masses brainwashed and distracted” Feb 05 13:34
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oiaohm_ HMM Feb 05 13:36
oiaohm_ appears I have found the IP number change time at my end. Feb 05 13:36
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schestowitz Yay.! Feb 05 13:47
schestowitz Lenovo CEO resigns < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer… >. Maybe they’ll become less Linux hostile and stop favouring Ballnux, too. Feb 05 13:47
schestowitz “Consumer mediator Bjoern Erik Thon told AFP that the organisation had no reason to hassle Jobs’ Mob any more.” http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/833/1050833/n… Feb 05 13:51
schestowitz The UK puts money $$$$ before the environment and health, even culture.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sc… Feb 05 13:53
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schestowitz WTF? http://valleywag.gawker.com/5146508/bill-… Feb 05 14:21
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mib_m1e53r @twitter: how complete is your VistaFailureLog bibliography? Feb 05 14:22
mib_m1e53r I need to print out and annotate articles to make an in-house case for fraud, conflict of interest and / or malice Feb 05 14:23
schestowitz For Vista? Feb 05 14:26
schestowitz I reckon he’s asleep or something Feb 05 14:26
schestowitz Ouch!! MySQL daddy ‘Monty’ quits Sun < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/0… > Feb 05 14:27
schestowitz “Few, then, will be surprised to learn of his departure. Monty is the latest in a series of big name MySQL bosses to walk away from Sun. Co-founder David Axmark quit in October grumbling that he “hated” all the rules he had to follow at the firm.” Feb 05 14:27
mib_m1e53r for Windows Vista Feb 05 14:28
mib_m1e53r not regular vista:ftp://ftp.va.gov/vista/Software/Readme.html Feb 05 14:28
mib_m1e53r gotta go for now, but will check the logs Feb 05 14:28
mib_m1e53r ciao Feb 05 14:28
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schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/… “UK primary school sites are being targeted by sleazy hackers in an attack that has reportedly resulted in hardcore porn appearing on web pages bearing school logos.” Feb 05 14:39
schestowitz Moodle Feb 05 14:39
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schestowitz What’s the name of waves that come as precursors to eruption or tidal waves or earthquake? Feb 05 14:45
schestowitz It seems like Novell has massive layoffs coming, but I lack the word.. Feb 05 14:46
tanderson strong ripcurrent isn’t it? Feb 05 14:52
tanderson or you might mean seismic waves Feb 05 14:52
tanderson ripcurrent is more for tsunamis Feb 05 14:53
tanderson schestowitz: ^ Feb 05 14:53
oiaohm_ seismic waves and there is also a electromagnic wave patterns that can be hours before the seismic wave happens. Feb 05 14:58
oiaohm_ The electromagnic monitoring is used along some fault lines. Feb 05 14:58
oiaohm_ Since its stress created where seismic is break created. Feb 05 14:59
schestowitz tanderson: thanks. Feb 05 15:02
schestowitz Yes, that would wor Feb 05 15:02
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schestowitz Let me do the post, you’ll then see.. Feb 05 15:02
schestowitz OK, done: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/05/… If you see typos, holler. Feb 05 15:13
schestowitz Asay’s report about Novell layoffs may have been correct Feb 05 15:19
twitter mib_m1e53r, sorry I missed you.  No listing of fraud is ever complete by the nature of fraud itself.  I do what I can and I’m glad when people like you find it useful.  Good luck. Feb 05 15:20
schestowitz I can’t read the Gates BS today… Feb 05 15:21
schestowitz They ignore his crime and then refer to other crimes concealed as “philanthropy”. Are they bribed or just ignorant these reporters? Feb 05 15:21
schestowitz It is a very sick world we live in if the biggest criminals are viewed as “very charitable’ people. Feb 05 15:22
twitter Mosquitoes into the crowd.  What a dick.  From you description, I charitably thought he was trying an infertile male release program.  According to the tweets he really let a box of mosquitoes lose in a room full of people – fully intending to make them misserable. Feb 05 15:24
twitter Some people are allergic to those things and get life threatening infections from bites. Feb 05 15:25
schestowitz The poor guy.. growing up in a 6-bedroom penthouse must be a nightmare. Feb 05 15:25
twitter Everyone is at risk from bird flue, west nile and other nasty things mosquitoes are known to carry. Feb 05 15:26
schestowitz AP Demands Money For Iconic Obama Poster Image < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090204… > Feb 05 15:26
twitter It seems Mr. Gates never did grow up.  He’s got the morals of a 2 year old. Feb 05 15:27
schestowitz This tactless act was approved by his PR people. I can’ help thinking about the Ballmer incident (shouting and bouncing on stage) Feb 05 15:27
schestowitz There was a South Park episode where the guy offers everyone in the crowd AIDS (aides) Feb 05 15:28
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schestowitz Here is the photo of BillG releasing insects, unleashing them onto people: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10157380-… Feb 05 15:34
schestowitz “that’s the dumbest fucking idea I’ve heard since I’ve been at Microsoft.” –BillG  http://blog.tomevslin.com/2007/05/microsoft_memo… Feb 05 15:35
schestowitz http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/06/16.html “In my BillG review meeting, the whole reporting hierarchy was there, along with their cousins, sisters, and aunts, and a person who came along from my team whose whole job during the meeting was to keep an accurate count of how many times Bill said the F word. The lower the f***-count, the better.” Feb 05 15:36
schestowitz Here’s a bunch of baloney: “Other personal health record (PHR) services will also be able to use the IBM software, which was built partially on open-source standards.” http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10156997-… Feb 05 15:37
schestowitz What is ‘open-source standard’. This is lockin, it’s proprietary, but Caroline McCarthy labels the post “open source” Feb 05 15:38
schestowitz *LOL* MinceR would love this: Next for iPhone: Multitasking? < http://www.pcworld.com/article/158913/next_… > Feb 05 15:40
schestowitz Well, maybe they should first implement “copy and paste”, rather than shooting down a company that make  FOSS that implements “copy and paste” for UseLessiPhone Feb 05 15:41
schestowitz My 7 year-old Palm could do copy and paste but iPhone won’t Feb 05 15:42
schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009… Wrong characterization of the OOXML corruptions… “Typically, when it comes to lobbying around government contracts and procurement on a grand scale like this, IT vendors push their own product agendas. “ Feb 05 15:45
schestowitz Time for France to move to Linux more quickly…….. its weapons are now disabled by a Windows viruses…. http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defens… Feb 05 15:57
amarsh04 was annoyed to find a pdf with encryption that wouldn’t let kpdf copy text from: http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_asse… Feb 05 16:10
amarsh04 it’s a public discussion paper on a gov.au site… should not be encrypted at all Feb 05 16:11
schestowitz amarsh04: check out the post I made 10 secs ago Feb 05 16:11
schestowitz It’s about SCO. Very funny Feb 05 16:11
schestowitz amarsh04: Go-OOXML (Novell) removed DRM code from OOo Feb 05 16:12
schestowitz Sun refused to strip the DRM antifeature because of the PDF (ISO) specs Feb 05 16:12
twitter Thanks for the Windows vs Ubuntu bench mark link today!  http://news.slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=vi… Feb 05 16:25
amarsh04 link please schestowitz (I’m overdue to get some sleep) Feb 05 16:27
schestowitz amarsh04: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/0… Feb 05 16:30
schestowitz twitter: here is Gates admitting Windows is a security mess: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/0… Feb 05 16:30
amarsh04 oh that one, I checked the link when I saw it referenced from the yahoo scox.pk board Feb 05 16:31
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schestowitz bbl Feb 05 18:52
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schestowitz http://code.google.com/p/vmware-v… “”Novell SLETC Add-On RPM package” Microsoft’s Maritz and Tucci  (Ballmer’s friend) seem to be already using VMware to promote patents-encumbered distros while ignoring market leaders like Red Hat..” Feb 05 19:02
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twitter A little misconception in today’s story about nuclear weapons control.  While it’s impossible to say for sure what the new IBM computer will really be used for, the stated “management” purpose is arsenal stewardship of the type done by Sandia National Labs. Feb 05 20:23
twitter That’s not operational control.  They want to make sure that material decay does not incapacitate the weapons. Feb 05 20:24
twitter Alpha decay makes various crystal dislocations and the byproducts can be neutron poisons. Feb 05 20:25
twitter The people at Sandia have been doing various simulations and inspections to make sure weapons will work and I think that’s what is being talked about when considering “management” Feb 05 20:27
twitter I’m not sure what is used for day to day inventory and control, though I have seen a lot of articles about GNU/Linux interest and deployment by the US military. Feb 05 20:30
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PetoKraus i’m gonna try Tex Feb 05 20:43
PetoKraus NOW Feb 05 20:43
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GoblinRFD Bonjour all! Feb 05 21:14
trmanco I just saw this: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/04/… Feb 05 21:51
trmanco nice one schestowitz Feb 05 21:51
GoblinRFD Yeah that was good. Feb 05 21:57
schestowitz Thanks. Feb 05 21:57
schestowitz Watch that last comment. One of their vice presidents has Microsoft history, too. Feb 05 22:11
schestowitz http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/… Feb 05 22:26
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yuhong I wonder when will MS sue Mono users to get them to switch to SUSE? Feb 05 22:57
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GoblinRFD ” I wonder when will MS sue Mono users to get them to switch to SUSE?” – I think the two mono users already use SUSE. Feb 05 23:10
schestowitz It’s a troll. Feb 05 23:11
schestowitz This dude it a troll..  Looking forward to Mono spanking… Feb 05 23:12
GoblinRFD who yuhong? Feb 05 23:12
GoblinRFD Roy, I have got a little addition I would like if you could add to the Andre article….its not big news or anything, and I could add it in the comments if you wish…. Feb 05 23:14
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schestowitz GoblinRFD: if you collect a bunch of evidence, then it can be accumulated for another post linking back to the old one. Feb 05 23:17
MinceR gn Feb 05 23:17
schestowitz http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?s… Feb 05 23:19
MinceR http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid… Feb 05 23:19
schestowitz Congrats, twitter. I see the Microsoft agents are tight in a tizzy there. Feb 05 23:19
*MinceR tags it ‘patenttrap’ Feb 05 23:20
schestowitz Advocacy of poison. Feb 05 23:20
MinceR http://dotancohen.com/eng/silverligh… Feb 05 23:22
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?lts… Feb 05 23:23
schestowitz Ewww Feb 05 23:24
schestowitz The Microsoft shills is nymshifting now. http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?lts… Feb 05 23:25
GoblinRFD Sorry roy got distracted….its just a comment Andre is alleged to have made, which I believe highlights the lengths that people stretch the truth about Linux…imo its too small for a new article. Feb 05 23:28
schestowitz The story that twitter put in /. FP seems likely to make Digg’s FP too (I submitted it): http://digg.com/linux_unix/Benchmarke… Feb 05 23:29
schestowitz GoblinRFD: collect evidence, then organise it for posting. That’s what I usually do… Feb 05 23:29
schestowitz The longer you wait, the more evidence you have and the more nicely you can lay it out to make a case Feb 05 23:29
GoblinRFD Ive added it already to my article.  Im done with Andre now since I believe what has been collected is more than enough to balance his PR posting. Feb 05 23:33
schestowitz I’ve just thrown Dana Blankenhorn to my Trash Feb 05 23:34
schestowitz That long overdue given his infinite ‘provocation’ (trolling). “Last straw” as they say….. Feb 05 23:34
schestowitz LT editor has just thrown the Microsoft shill out (ban): http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story…. Feb 05 23:35
schestowitz He’s trolling BN as well Feb 05 23:35
schestowitz Earlier he compared Linux users to terrorists……. in BN… but we don’t censor. Feb 05 23:36
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