IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 22nd, 2009 - Part 1

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2009-02-23 06:46:38 UTC
Modified: 2009-02-23 06:46:38 UTC

MinceR	Balrog: m$ suffers from NIH syndrome.	Feb 22 00:01
Balrog	heh	Feb 22 00:01
Balrog	what about the promised ODF support in Office 07?	Feb 22 00:01
MinceR	they've already bought ISO, haven't they?	Feb 22 00:01
MinceR	promises from m$ aren't worth the paper they're printed on.	Feb 22 00:01
schestowitz	UN nuclear watchdog rejects Syrian excuses for uranium find < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009... >	Feb 22 00:02
schestowitz	Hehehe. http://www.politifact.com/truth-...	Feb 22 00:03
schestowitz	MinceR: they try extending ODF	Feb 22 00:04
schestowitz	The cronies from ISO/MS commented in BN too	Feb 22 00:04
schestowitz	Which means we're on to something or else they won't bother	Feb 22 00:04
schestowitz	In fact, the second time they did nothing to deny it. it's disgusting really.	Feb 22 00:04
schestowitz	The Copywrong Song (new, like copy-left): http://creativefreedom.org.nz/co...	Feb 22 00:05
Balrog	schestowitz: I have no problem with proprietary software, as long as it's taking rights away from others	Feb 22 00:07
Balrog	it's NOT taking rights ***	Feb 22 00:08
schestowitz	http://www.stallman.org/archives/2008-nov-fe... "The shoes he threw, he threw for all of us."	Feb 22 00:08
Balrog	how's that related? In any case, 15 years is preposterous. At most it should be a small fine	Feb 22 00:09
Balrog	and yeah, copyright is way too long	Feb 22 00:09
schestowitz	Well, but it was not thrown at some ordinary man	Feb 22 00:10
Balrog	I know...	Feb 22 00:10
schestowitz	It was thrown at a thug who killed over 1 million Iraqis.	Feb 22 00:10
Balrog	yeah but it was disturbing the peace. 15 years is obviously unjust	Feb 22 00:11
Balrog	I'm talking from a purely legal standpoint	Feb 22 00:11
schestowitz	Not even Saddam, Rumsfeld's friend, managed to do this.	Feb 22 00:11
Balrog	yeah.	Feb 22 00:12
schestowitz	In the west, it's got to be big. Big car, bit house, big farm, big ego, big casualties.	Feb 22 00:14
Balrog	now this mess with nVidia vs. Intel isn't helping anyone D:	Feb 22 00:25
trmanco	wow	Feb 22 00:25
trmanco	look at this: Last reboot418 days ago http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_...	Feb 22 00:25
schestowitz	It's not that impressive	Feb 22 00:28
trmanco	Chromonium on Linux -> http://www.sofaraway.org/ubunt... \| http://www.sofaraway.org/ubunt... Native!!	Feb 22 00:28
schestowitz	Some are up for years	Feb 22 00:28
schestowitz	Good for 1&1 Internet in Germany	Feb 22 00:28
trmanco	yeah, but maore than 1 year os good	Feb 22 00:28
schestowitz	They also just sample for uptime	Feb 22 00:28
schestowitz	It might have redundancy	Feb 22 00:29
trmanco	the server is actually located in the US	Feb 22 00:29
MinceR	bitmap fonts :/	Feb 22 00:29
Balrog	netcraft isn't very accurate	Feb 22 00:31
Balrog	it says that the univ. server was last rebooted "20-Feb-2006"	Feb 22 00:31
Balrog	when it was taken down very recently	Feb 22 00:31
trmanco	cya	Feb 22 00:33
schestowitz	downtime?	Feb 22 00:33
schestowitz	trmanco: rebooting so soon?	Feb 22 00:33
Balrog	they had to move it from one room to another	Feb 22 00:34
Balrog	though a couple of months ago, worse happend	Feb 22 00:34
Balrog	happened **	Feb 22 00:34
schestowitz	ic...	Feb 22 00:34
MinceR	netcraft confirms bsd is dying	Feb 22 00:34
MinceR	:>	Feb 22 00:34
Balrog	a backup caused the server to crash	Feb 22 00:34
schestowitz	trmanco got himself a new kernel, so he reboots (sleep)	Feb 22 00:34
Balrog	(this is Linux btw)	Feb 22 00:34
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schestowitz	MinceR: not really	Feb 22 00:35
schestowitz	It's replaced by Apple fans.	Feb 22 00:35
MinceR	schestowitz: it's a /. meme	Feb 22 00:35
schestowitz	They proprietarised it	Feb 22 00:35
Balrog	heh.	Feb 22 00:35
schestowitz	$ sudo chown bsd crapple	Feb 22 00:35
MinceR	m$ wants their part too	Feb 22 00:35
schestowitz	They got it	Feb 22 00:36
Balrog	PureDarwin is trying to do something.	Feb 22 00:36
schestowitz	find[whatever] \| grep bsd c:/windows/*	Feb 22 00:37
schestowitz	Hurd is based on Mach in a way (was?)	Feb 22 00:37
MinceR	it is	Feb 22 00:37
schestowitz	If Linus didn't make Linux, would someone else like GNU make an equally popular kernel?	Feb 22 00:37
MinceR	afaik HURD consists of servers running on top of GNU Mach	Feb 22 00:38
schestowitz	That would have changed the whole philosophicalm direction.	Feb 22 00:38
Balrog	Microkernels are tricky to make practical	Feb 22 00:38
Balrog	so far OS X is the only widely used system that has anything like a microkernel (that I know of, at least)	Feb 22 00:39
MinceR	that's not a microkernel	Feb 22 00:39
MinceR	neither is windows nt	Feb 22 00:39
schestowitz	They are also slower	Feb 22 00:39
schestowitz	But nothing's free	Feb 22 00:39
schestowitz	OOP can be slow too	Feb 22 00:39
MinceR	os x has a layer from freebsd and who knows what else running in kernel mode	Feb 22 00:39
schestowitz	Depending on the coding, compiling , optimisations, etc.	Feb 22 00:39
MinceR	winnt has big parts of the gui running in kernel mode	Feb 22 00:39
Balrog	all the kexts in OS X	Feb 22 00:39
MinceR	claiming that they're using microkernels is marketing bullshit	Feb 22 00:40
MinceR	OOP can be fast	Feb 22 00:40
Balrog	I'm not defending them	Feb 22 00:40
MinceR	i'd like to have a mature GNU/HURD	Feb 22 00:40
MinceR	i value reliability and security over performance :>	Feb 22 00:40
schestowitz	MinceR: you can buy a gnu calf	Feb 22 00:44
schestowitz	feed it and it'll grow	Feb 22 00:44
MinceR	:)	Feb 22 00:45
schestowitz	RMS is handing some out	Feb 22 00:45
schestowitz	Let me find a pic	Feb 22 00:45
schestowitz	WTF? http://citizenreports.files.wordp...	Feb 22 00:46
schestowitz	See comment: http://flickr.com/photos/62449268@N00/324519959	Feb 22 00:48
MinceR	is that a hat?	Feb 22 00:51
MinceR	(on the first pic)	Feb 22 00:52
schestowitz	You know the small disc, no? The one that was a wafer and he wear for the Saint Ignicius routine?	Feb 22 00:56
schestowitz	*wears	Feb 22 00:56
schestowitz	http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ICring...	Feb 22 00:57
schestowitz	You already miss him, donchoo?	Feb 22 00:58
schestowitz	There is hope left for human kind... Victim of Bullying Video Drops Google Case < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159979/goog... >	Feb 22 00:59
schestowitz	I blame PetoKraus for starting with all those Microsoft posts in BN ;-) It used to be none, then some in dailt link, then "eye on Microsoft" and now we have visitors surging because there is great interest in Microsoft's demise along with the evidence. If I should stop covering this, say so and I will.	Feb 22 01:01
MinceR	i don't miss him	Feb 22 01:01
MinceR	in fact, i hope he and his company dies.	Feb 22 01:02
MinceR	the world would do better with less lock-in and contempt for users.	Feb 22 01:02
MinceR	and less DRM.	Feb 22 01:02
schestowitz	Maybe he misses you...?	Feb 22 01:03
ZiggyFish	MinceR: agreed, also it's not like it's off topic anyway	Feb 22 01:03
MinceR	he doesn't know me so he can't miss me	Feb 22 01:03
schestowitz	http://www.upstartblogger.com/free-mac-boo... "I want an Apple laptop so bad that I have gone as far as emailing Steve Jobs asking for a free MacBook Air, he replied with a polite ‘Sorry, but no’ Sent from my iPhone, LOL!"	Feb 22 01:03
schestowitz	ZiggyFish: other sites don't cover it	Feb 22 01:04
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: exactly	Feb 22 01:04
schestowitz	I can't think of a single one that does it properly and systematically, so I might as well. We also inherited some Groklaw readers because that site covered similar subjects	Feb 22 01:04
schestowitz	BN's Netcraft rank is now 2300th. I don't think more than a handful Linux sites beat that	Feb 22 01:05
ZiggyFish	that reminds me I haven't read BN since Friday (it's now sunday)	Feb 22 01:05
schestowitz	We even beat Linux Journal < http://www.linuxjournal.com/ >	Feb 22 01:06
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: so it must be interesting to other people	Feb 22 01:06
schestowitz	I hope so.	Feb 22 01:06
schestowitz	I'll do some more MS posts now	Feb 22 01:06
schestowitz	I have 4 coming, but I'll get tired soon.	Feb 22 01:06
ZiggyFish	lol	Feb 22 01:07
schestowitz	I'll whack Vista	Feb 22 01:07
schestowitz	*Vista7	Feb 22 01:07
schestowitz	I already think of them as the same thing because the name got to me. That's the idea... it all came from BN irc channel	Feb 22 01:07
schestowitz	I see Vista 7 in other sites and in USENET now and it started here in BN	Feb 22 01:08
*ZiggyFish been playing with my new phone for a too long, need to catch up on some stories I've missed		Feb 22 01:08
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: nice	Feb 22 01:08
schestowitz	Android is nice. I saw it	Feb 22 01:08
schestowitz	Practical too... no less than iShiny	Feb 22 01:08
ZiggyFish	only came out on monday in australia	Feb 22 01:08
MinceR	android doesn't support native apps, only java crap	Feb 22 01:08
MinceR	there are plenty of phones that can run java crap	Feb 22 01:09
schestowitz	Jailbreak the bugger	Feb 22 01:09
benJIman	Depends what you mean by native.	Feb 22 01:09
benJIman	Android isn't real java.	Feb 22 01:09
MinceR	in this case, ARM binaries	Feb 22 01:09
ZiggyFish	MinceR: have you seen what you can do from a programmers point of view in android ?	Feb 22 01:09
schestowitz	MinceR: They sell you the phone, no?	Feb 22 01:09
schestowitz	They don't rent phones for $300 upfront	Feb 22 01:09
ZiggyFish	it's what makes the android so powerfull	Feb 22 01:09
MinceR	with access to the GUI and all the hardware, including phone and GPS.	Feb 22 01:09
schestowitz	ZiggyFish: yes, seen it. Some prefer it to iPhony	Feb 22 01:10
MinceR	i'm still waiting for a truly open linux phone with keyboard.	Feb 22 01:10
ZiggyFish	MinceR: also in true Open source style you can replace absolutly of the default apps	Feb 22 01:10
schestowitz	MinceR: maemo?	Feb 22 01:10
schestowitz	Nokia n810 not versatile enough?	Feb 22 01:10
MinceR	perhaps the G1 developer version with openmoko, but i keep hearing openmoko isn't mature	Feb 22 01:10
MinceR	schestowitz: maemo doesn't have phone functionality the last time i checked	Feb 22 01:11
ZiggyFish	MinceR: has full querty keyboard, what more could you want	Feb 22 01:11
MinceR	afaik nokia only offers non-phone tablets/pdas with linux	Feb 22 01:11
schestowitz	ZiggyFish: pinch	Feb 22 01:11
ZiggyFish	lol	Feb 22 01:11
schestowitz	Linux users have keyboards	Feb 22 01:11
schestowitz	iphone users play with chopsticks	Feb 22 01:11
ZiggyFish	lol	Feb 22 01:12
Balrog	sticks don't work on iphone	Feb 22 01:12
schestowitz	iMultitouch	Feb 22 01:12
Balrog	heh	Feb 22 01:12
MinceR	iirc there's a special stick for iphone	Feb 22 01:12
MinceR	hopefully it works with the G1 and others, too	Feb 22 01:12
schestowitz	Balrog: iC...	Feb 22 01:12
MinceR	i've seen it on thinkgeek	Feb 22 01:12
Balrog	don't see why it won't	Feb 22 01:12
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: the G1 has multitouch hardware, but is not supported by OS	Feb 22 01:13
MinceR	still, none of these phones come with a stylus or a slot to hold it	Feb 22 01:13
MinceR	i hope the industry can do better than this.	Feb 22 01:13
*ZiggyFish starting on the 31 posts I've missed		Feb 22 01:13
MinceR	perhaps webOS will open up a little.	Feb 22 01:14
*Balrog has quit ("bye")		Feb 22 01:24
MinceR	gn	Feb 22 01:25
ZiggyFish	c ya	Feb 22 01:25
schestowitz	webOS will be very closed, IMHO.	Feb 22 01:33
schestowitz	Palm never said anything about 'openness', just Linux (for its engineering... mutitasking and all)	Feb 22 01:33
schestowitz	ZiggyFish: it doesn't support multitouch because of Apple's bullying/whetever, according to report	Feb 22 01:34
schestowitz	Apple needs to get a "kick in the pants" as they say	Feb 22 01:34
schestowitz	They are too conceited and they just harm other people's products... YOUR product	Feb 22 01:35
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schestowitz	http://survey.wikimedia.org/index.p...	Feb 22 02:36
schestowitz	Microsoft talking point from Shill Fried: Don't expect Obama to object to Windows' browser < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860... > Talking points, talking points...	Feb 22 02:37
oiaohm	Yep windows 7 is now doing what vista did when it was a beta	Feb 22 02:51
oiaohm	longhorn also killed Linux partition.	Feb 22 02:52
schestowitz	What's Port 25 for again? :-)	Feb 22 02:53
oiaohm	smtp normally	Feb 22 02:54
oiaohm	Or do you mean the group at MS that was ment to make nice with opensource that has kinda vaporised.	Feb 22 02:55
schestowitz	Daniel Eran opines that Microsoft phone is baloney: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/02/21/the...	Feb 22 02:57
schestowitz	May Jo Foley too is angrily saying that it ain't happening.	Feb 22 02:57
schestowitz	But Microsoft said the same thing about layoffs (won't happen)	Feb 22 02:57
schestowitz	oiaohm: Port 25, the Microsoft group	Feb 22 02:58
schestowitz	Interesting that you mention it vapourised. Hilf jumped that ship, the Ramji lackey is quiet (goal it to rob projects and take them away from Linux) and they hired their mole reporter Galli to write in a blog and site nobody reads or links to. Port 25 is a major failure, esp. recently.	Feb 22 02:59
schestowitz	http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtop... "While I do not callously overlook the pain and dislocation that these job losses represent to those involved, I must confess that in the bigger scheme of things, it might be better for Linux and FOSS in general, that those distributions that made special (and still secret) deals with the Devil, should go the way of the dodo."	Feb 22 03:09
schestowitz	Well said: "OpenSUSE developers might do well for themselves right now if they offer their services to Redhat, which seems to be weathering this economic crisis far better than the Microsoft lackey, Novell. Best of luck, guys. We don't blame you. Your corporate bosses sold out on us all."	Feb 22 03:10
schestowitz	"Mono is an unnecessary implementation of the .Net platform. .Net is not a standard of any sort. Mono simply ratifies .Net. There is no need for Mono other than to ratify .Net."	Feb 22 03:11
schestowitz	http://blogs.computerworld.com/whos_buddying_u... "from the horse's orifice; http://www.youtube.com/watc... "	Feb 22 03:17
oiaohm	really if any distribution is in place to buy xen it would be redhat.	Feb 22 03:18
schestowitz	It has KVM	Feb 22 03:18
schestowitz	What would it need a Windows-centrix Xentrix for?	Feb 22 03:19
oiaohm	Simple point redhat has free cash.	Feb 22 03:19
oiaohm	Novell really does not.	Feb 22 03:19
schestowitz	Nope	Feb 22 03:19
schestowitz	Buybacks and all.	Feb 22 03:19
schestowitz	They claim increasing revenue	Feb 22 03:19
schestowitz	They also hired some more guys (2 from Mandriva whom I know)	Feb 22 03:19
schestowitz	But Xen...? What for?	Feb 22 03:19
schestowitz	I spoke to SJVN before he wrote this article	Feb 22 03:20
schestowitz	He decided to write this after we exchanged ideas.	Feb 22 03:20
oiaohm	Note I said in place to. Not that they would want it.	Feb 22 03:20
oiaohm	In place from a money point of view.	Feb 22 03:20
oiaohm	It would be buying purely for compettion control.	Feb 22 03:21
schestowitz	Xen is a mess	Feb 22 03:21
schestowitz	KVM is cleaner	Feb 22 03:21
oiaohm	that is always hard to justify.	Feb 22 03:21
schestowitz	Xen is an ugly hack based on the assessment of an IBMer with expertise in this area	Feb 22 03:21
schestowitz	Don't ask me about dom0 and all that stuff which is beyond me	Feb 22 03:21
oiaohm	Xen idea was a small central core.	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	I'd rather see companies stop buying stuf	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	This is like a game if risk	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	USA vs USSR	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	Why can't we have 150 countries?	Feb 22 03:22
oiaohm	Yes game of risk is the only reason redhat would.	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	There's MS ecosystem+partners+moles	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	versus all sorts of other 'factions'	Feb 22 03:22
schestowitz	This is a very unhealthy industry	Feb 22 03:23
oiaohm	It would almost give redhat 100 percent exculsive control of open source virtualisation tech.	Feb 22 03:23
schestowitz	it's one thing to created a communism-like set of private tyrannies	Feb 22 03:23
schestowitz	Those unaccountable corporations also receives rights as thogh they are humans	Feb 22 03:23
oiaohm	Also cause MS problems for hyper-v if they changed Xen to GPL 3.	Feb 22 03:23
schestowitz	Then they just scoop up potential rivals	Feb 22 03:23
schestowitz	Google too.. BIG time.	Feb 22 03:23
schestowitz	Microsoft just stole at the start	Feb 22 03:24
schestowitz	Google made search.. then bought many companies	Feb 22 03:24
oiaohm	Hmm google would have a reason to take Xen.	Feb 22 03:24
schestowitz	Microsoft just stole, cheated, sabotaged, lied, etc..	Feb 22 03:24
oiaohm	Xen style hyperviser fits inside phones.	Feb 22 03:24
schestowitz	In the 90s they started 'buying' expansions because they lost money	Feb 22 03:24
oiaohm	Better than KVM does.	Feb 22 03:24
schestowitz	Google might	Feb 22 03:25
schestowitz	BUT	Feb 22 03:25
schestowitz	It's too IRON for them	Feb 22 03:25
schestowitz	Google does hardware-distant stuff	Feb 22 03:25
schestowitz	It uses Red Hat	Feb 22 03:25
schestowitz	So it can leave this for Red Hat to handle	Feb 22 03:25
schestowitz	oiaohm: Google can use VirtualLogix	Feb 22 03:25
oiaohm	Xen does have particular features for particular embed uses.	Feb 22 03:26
schestowitz	But it has a Java VM on Android	Feb 22 03:26
schestowitz	Novell's chummies try to push Mono into G1	Feb 22 03:26
schestowitz	Same with LiMo... :-(	Feb 22 03:26
schestowitz	Xen on phones? I think not	Feb 22 03:26
oiaohm	Its the design of the hypervisor.	Feb 22 03:26
schestowitz	There are specialised products for mobile and low-energy stuff I'd imagine	Feb 22 03:27
schestowitz	Some proprietary..	Feb 22 03:27
oiaohm	Xen would still need masive ammounts of work to make it usable.	Feb 22 03:27
schestowitz	Also..	Feb 22 03:27
schestowitz	Why virtualise on phones anyway?	Feb 22 03:27
schestowitz	What's the practical gain?	Feb 22 03:27
oiaohm	Its required to keep closed source parts like phone network encryption away from general operating parts.	Feb 22 03:27
schestowitz	So security?	Feb 22 03:28
oiaohm	Yep	Feb 22 03:28
schestowitz	Virtualisation can exacerbate security.	Feb 22 03:28
schestowitz	If the liars from anal-ysts firm are something you can go by, the added complexity makes it hard for testers or AV vendors to keep track of risk vectors	Feb 22 03:29
schestowitz	VMWare has also had some vulnerabilities.	Feb 22 03:29
schestowitz	Or downtime due to some activation issue last year	Feb 22 03:29
oiaohm	Its the type of Virtualisation.	Feb 22 03:30
schestowitz	To virtualise much on phones is too much.. servers is where it's at and WHAT FOR?	Feb 22 03:30
schestowitz	It's overrated to a degree.	Feb 22 03:30
schestowitz	"Save electricity" and other buzzphrases don't always match up	Feb 22 03:30
oiaohm	Phones have normally a microkernel based virtualistaion level.	Feb 22 03:30
oiaohm	Meant to be low in ammount of code needed.	Feb 22 03:30
schestowitz	Why would Red Hat need such a thing?	Feb 22 03:31
oiaohm	XEN matches the general requirements of the phone stack.	Feb 22 03:31
oiaohm	Servers KVM wins.	Feb 22 03:31
oiaohm	Embed if redhat is going there for phones and the like Xen style is kinda needed.	Feb 22 03:31
oiaohm	Different markets different requirements.	Feb 22 03:31
oiaohm	Really open source has not build a hypervisor fully for like the phone based roll.	Feb 22 03:33
oiaohm	Stuck to server market like hypervisors.	Feb 22 03:34
schestowitz	http://www.virtuallogix.com/	Feb 22 03:35
oiaohm	Phones also require the hypervisor to do signing checking.	Feb 22 03:35
oiaohm	Also it most likely if redhat was going to aquire something to go after the phone market best would be L4	Feb 22 03:38
schestowitz	Red Hat won't do phones	Feb 22 03:40
oiaohm	virtuallogix is another microkernel based hypervisor.	Feb 22 03:40
schestowitz	They hardly risk it with desktops now	Feb 22 03:40
schestowitz	Not many people even buy computers (it's bound to get worse over time)	Feb 22 03:40
schestowitz	This favours upgrades to a second partition (Linux).	Feb 22 03:40
oiaohm	Redhat will attack the business desktop whey they are ready.	Feb 22 03:41
oiaohm	Because the desktop a business uses effects there server selections.	Feb 22 03:41
oiaohm	Same does partly apply to phones.	Feb 22 03:42
schestowitz	Apple is mostly desktop focused too	Feb 22 03:43
schestowitz	But Apple only 'exists' in a few countries	Feb 22 03:43
schestowitz	Apple also does gadgets, but that's another story	Feb 22 03:43
oiaohm	http://freeipa.org is about prepairing the tech for the Desktop push.	Feb 22 03:43
schestowitz	Red Hat can succeed in the emerging market when Microsoft goes MAD like SCO and can't maintain its products	Feb 22 03:44
oiaohm	Redhat does not seam interested in desktop. But they are putting a lot of work into getting ready.	Feb 22 03:44
schestowitz	More Microsoft layoffs are likely to be coming which is why it's rushing Vista7 (upgrade treadmill)	Feb 22 03:44
schestowitz	Red Hat's desktop was Web-focused	Feb 22 03:45
oiaohm	Nop	Feb 22 03:45
schestowitz	Over time, some businesses will run more stuff over the network, i.e. on Red Hat-based 'clouds;	Feb 22 03:45
oiaohm	Freeipa is focused on client server like MS.	Feb 22 03:45
schestowitz	http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc...	Feb 22 03:46
oiaohm	Also focused on allowing users to run virtualisation controlled.	Feb 22 03:46
schestowitz	Oops. It starts in here (page 1): http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/articl...	Feb 22 03:46
oiaohm	1 month after that freeipa was born.	Feb 22 03:47
oiaohm	Look at the code redhat is producing tells you more what they are upto than there press releases.	Feb 22 03:47
oiaohm	freeipa is a small segment out a very huge project.	Feb 22 03:48
oiaohm	http://ovirt.org/ It all about complete network management from installation virtualisation client control. Yep complete box and dice.	Feb 22 03:49
oiaohm	Have to go mow law back in a bit.	Feb 22 03:50
oiaohm	law/lawn	Feb 22 03:50
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schestowitz	Windows... all about lipstick... http://lifehacker.com/5126130/wind... ... still with NTFS and other problems like DLL hell...	Feb 22 03:59
twitter	cool link, will check it out.	Feb 22 04:17
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schestowitz	It's 4:30. I'll get some kip	Feb 22 04:18
twitter	actually that link was really about how to "unlock" your Vista to use "unofficial themes." looks like hell but not DLL hell, too horrible to read further.	Feb 22 04:20
twitter	NTFS - hell	Feb 22 04:20
twitter	DLLs - hell	Feb 22 04:20
twitter	Paytards torture themselves to no end.	Feb 22 04:23
twitter	After you unlock your leased copy of Vista to load an unofficial theme, apply Windoblinds, Mozilla, Gimp and a few other Upsell Power Toys, you get something that might look a little like Mac or KDE but performs like riding mower with a spoilers bolted on.	Feb 22 04:25
twitter	Ohhh, but it looks so fast.	Feb 22 04:25
twitter	Star Trek even.	Feb 22 04:26
twitter	gn	Feb 22 04:26
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Omar87	Hi guys.	Feb 22 05:25
Omar87	Is it true that this is the first time Microsoft allows people try out the beta of version of the upcoming Windows?	Feb 22 05:26
Omar87	the beta version	Feb 22 05:26
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avuton	Omar87: Depends, back before Windows 95 came out they had a public beta, though you did have to ask for a CD over snail mail	Feb 22 05:40
PetoKraus	Longhorn, when it still was longhorn, had beta	Feb 22 05:44
PetoKraus	we may argue whether it was upcoming windows	Feb 22 05:45
PetoKraus	or vapourware ;)	Feb 22 05:45
PetoKraus	anyway	Feb 22 05:45
PetoKraus	off to ben nevis! see you later	Feb 22 05:45
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trmanco	http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/...	Feb 22 09:52
trmanco	and let the bloated boat sink!	Feb 22 09:52
oiaohm	Android is not that bloated.	Feb 22 09:53
oiaohm	To be correct its lighter than most distributions used on netbooks so far.	Feb 22 09:53
trmanco	I'm not talking about android	Feb 22 09:54
trmanco	I'm referring to these kinds of quote "An Eee PC or similar netbook running Android may be damaging to Microsoft, which has largely managed to supplant Linux in netbooks but has been unable to penetrate the low-cost end of the market."	Feb 22 09:55
trmanco	quotes*	Feb 22 09:55
oiaohm	Really wait for next wave	Feb 22 09:55
oiaohm	Arm based netbooks	Feb 22 09:55
oiaohm	8 hours + runtime and unable to run windows at all.	Feb 22 09:55
trmanco	yes, that is going to be a "revolution" :-P	Feb 22 09:55
trmanco	I'll buy one myself	Feb 22 09:56
oiaohm	Really I will be waiting on laptop sized	Feb 22 09:56
oiaohm	I cannot use netbook size.	Feb 22 09:56
trmanco	That might take a while	Feb 22 09:56
oiaohm	Really there is a large section of the market who will eat up cheep notbook size.	Feb 22 09:56
oiaohm	Mostly the keyboard	Feb 22 09:57
MinceR	oh hai	Feb 22 10:07
schestowitz	There are already some ARM-based one over there.	Feb 22 10:28
schestowitz	*ones	Feb 22 10:28
oiaohm	Just not in large number yet.	Feb 22 10:29
oiaohm	Its the natural step. Go to Linux then to arm.	Feb 22 10:29
MinceR	but keep x on netbooks	Feb 22 10:43
MinceR	android only keeps away most of the apps :>	Feb 22 10:43
schestowitz	People don't need apps	Feb 22 10:51
schestowitz	They need hotmail and facebooks junk	Feb 22 10:52
schestowitz	*facebook	Feb 22 10:52
*MinceR is a not-people.		Feb 22 10:52
schestowitz	Not as far as computers are concerned	Feb 22 10:52
oiaohm	PC's are slowly turning into devices	Feb 22 11:35
oiaohm	To true computer users this is going to get a annoyance.	Feb 22 11:35
schestowitz	Appliancing [sic]	Feb 22 11:40
schestowitz	The Appliancisation of computing :-)	Feb 22 11:40
MinceR	that's what macs are for	Feb 22 11:45
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Omar87	Hi all	Feb 22 12:47
schestowitz	Hey, what's up?	Feb 22 12:48
trmanco	http://identi.ca/notice/2427385	Feb 22 13:14
schestowitz	Hehe. v	Feb 22 13:29
schestowitz	http://seekingalpha.com/?source=wt	Feb 22 13:29
trmanco	LOL	Feb 22 13:36
oiaohm	Few 8 page document complete on file formats for long term storage.	Feb 22 13:36
oiaohm	http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.... Interesting.	Feb 22 13:59
oiaohm	Searching sourceforge will seach both.	Feb 22 14:00
schestowitz	Freshmeat?	Feb 22 14:08
schestowitz	It was worse when there was some MS intersection	Feb 22 14:09
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/09/c...	Feb 22 14:09
oiaohm	Thinking source forge was intendend to be a project home.	Feb 22 14:14
oiaohm	And freemeat was intented to be a search engine for projects including closed source ones.	Feb 22 14:15
oiaohm	There could be a conflit in places.	Feb 22 14:15
oiaohm	Nop sourceforge has filtered.	Feb 22 14:16
schestowitz	Freshmeat was only FOSS I thought..	Feb 22 14:16
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oiaohm	http://freshmeat.net/projects/cacheguard... Programs must run on Linux. But being open source no such requirement on freshmeat	Feb 22 14:17
Mr	Hey Roy, it's me Mike, you out there?	Feb 22 14:17
*Mr is now known as Guest33678		Feb 22 14:17
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schestowitz	Hey, what's up?	Feb 22 14:17
Guest33678	i got here eventually:)	Feb 22 14:17
schestowitz	Yeah....	Feb 22 14:17
schestowitz	Saab is dead, sorta	Feb 22 14:18
schestowitz	Chapter 11	Feb 22 14:18
schestowitz	GM has Obama paying its bills... y'know, let the public pay	Feb 22 14:18
Guest33678	This thing is only just getting going	Feb 22 14:18
schestowitz	SOme people reckon it hasn't collapsed yet	Feb 22 14:18
schestowitz	My dad thinks it'll happen some time this year	Feb 22 14:18
Guest33678	its certainly in the post	Feb 22 14:18
Guest33678	did you see the markets close on Friday......shocking	Feb 22 14:19
schestowitz	Friday?	Feb 22 14:20
schestowitz	I think I saw Thursday	Feb 22 14:20
Guest33678	Dow at all time low, lost 3% on the day, now at 7300 approx, the temporary respite is over, now its business as usual	Feb 22 14:20
schestowitz	Dow at about 7200	Feb 22 14:20
Guest33678	wow	Feb 22 14:20
schestowitz	Yeah, I think I saw that.	Feb 22 14:20
schestowitz	People ignore this you know?	Feb 22 14:21
schestowitz	Folks at the gym like Craig don't know about it	Feb 22 14:21
Guest33678	they do, they don't want to believe	Feb 22 14:21
schestowitz	Vicky doesn't /want/ to know about it	Feb 22 14:21
Guest33678	they might not realise how badly this will bite us all until it does	Feb 22 14:21
schestowitz	Well, dreaming is good too	Feb 22 14:21
schestowitz	You know, like heaven and other fantasies	Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz	Or the two illusionist centres of the world -- Washington and Hollywood.	Feb 22 14:22
Guest33678	an inflationary apocalypse is on the way, i'm not buying into the deflation poppycock	Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz	Economic slowdown..	Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz	"downturn..."	Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz	"Stimulus"	Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz	"_bail_ out"	Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz	Too much Orwellian language	Feb 22 14:23
schestowitz	"Recession..."	Feb 22 14:23
Guest33678	yeah all these buzzwords amount to one thing.....theft!	Feb 22 14:23
schestowitz	"Public looting?"	Feb 22 14:23
Guest33678	on a massive scale	Feb 22 14:23
schestowitz	I call it that usually... the Independent, IIRC, used this word	Feb 22 14:23
schestowitz	Let me find it	Feb 22 14:23
Guest33678	the rats are deserting the sinking ship, and taking all the booty with them	Feb 22 14:23
schestowitz	It was an op ed from October	Feb 22 14:23
oiaohm	I have already lost my bet on how load the Dow would go.	Feb 22 14:24
oiaohm	load/low	Feb 22 14:24
Guest33678	the economy is being scuttled, could this be the pretext for a new global currency i wonder?	Feb 22 14:24
schestowitz	Ha!	Feb 22 14:24
oiaohm	Unlikely.	Feb 22 14:24
schestowitz	Found it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/... (The Bush gang's parting gift: a final, frantic looting of public wealth)	Feb 22 14:25
oiaohm	Base global currency is gold.	Feb 22 14:25
Guest33678	gold is now up at 1000 dollars per ounce	Feb 22 14:25
Guest33678	not much faith in paper money these days	Feb 22 14:25
schestowitz	Yes, I know	Feb 22 14:25
schestowitz	Worse -- bank accounts	Feb 22 14:25
schestowitz	People might trust paper even more	Feb 22 14:25
schestowitz	At least it's transferable.	Feb 22 14:26
Guest33678	ya	Feb 22 14:26
Guest33678	will be watching the share indices closely tomorrow	Feb 22 14:27
schestowitz	FTSE?	Feb 22 14:27
Guest33678	on its arse	Feb 22 14:27
Guest33678	not sure is it around 3800	Feb 22 14:27
schestowitz	It doesn't mean much, y'know?	Feb 22 14:28
schestowitz	Indexes are about perceived value.	Feb 22 14:28
schestowitz	So it's bound to be impacted by imposed optimism	Feb 22 14:29
Guest33678	the FTSE and DOW are more the symptoms	Feb 22 14:30
Guest33678	of the damning bigger picture	Feb 22 14:30
oiaohm	Its a chain reaction.	Feb 22 14:30
Guest33678	but a good indicator of where we are heading none the less	Feb 22 14:31
oiaohm	The world was running on a very big credit card.	Feb 22 14:31
Guest33678	true	Feb 22 14:31
oiaohm	Lot of money was created from nothing.	Feb 22 14:31
oiaohm	Now its gone we have to pay the piper.	Feb 22 14:31
Guest33678	phantom money borrowed on notional increaswes in property value	Feb 22 14:31
oiaohm	Cheep to access money inlated house prices.	Feb 22 14:32
oiaohm	inflated	Feb 22 14:32
Guest33678	almost every major cityscape in Britain has been transformed in the last ten years, where did all the money come from?	Feb 22 14:32
oiaohm	Basically everything gone boom.	Feb 22 14:32
schestowitz	Guest33678: heard of the second madoff yet?	Feb 22 14:32
schestowitz	Another guy... $8 billion... one week ago	Feb 22 14:32
schestowitz	Stanford something, IIRC	Feb 22 14:32
Guest33678	lord such and such a body Stanford is it?	Feb 22 14:33
Guest33678	Get Ready for Mass Retail Closings	Feb 22 14:33
oiaohm	Difference here you don't need much money to transform a city if you are careful.	Feb 22 14:33
schestowitz	Guest33678: the campus was renovated at a budget of .6bn pounds	Feb 22 14:33
oiaohm	City planners.	Feb 22 14:33
Guest33678	Empty shopping malls	Feb 22 14:33
oiaohm	controlling what can and cannot be built can transform a city	Feb 22 14:34
Guest33678	tumbleweed blowing down the High Street	Feb 22 14:34
Guest33678	:)	Feb 22 14:34
schestowitz	What about places like Dubai, Russia, China...?	Feb 22 14:34
oiaohm	Other big issue usa has large areas have no poplution in them.	Feb 22 14:34
oiaohm	So they will rot.	Feb 22 14:34
oiaohm	All thoose building build with cheep mony is disappearing.	Feb 22 14:35
oiaohm	After that process complete everything will have to return to normal.	Feb 22 14:35
Guest33678	people say head for the hills when civil breakdown starts to happen, trouble is there no-one can hear you scream	Feb 22 14:35
oiaohm	Problem is that could be 10 years.	Feb 22 14:35
oiaohm	Usa populations on the street are a large problem.	Feb 22 14:35
Guest33678	and factor in the guns too = bloodbath	Feb 22 14:36
Guest33678	there are a lot of angry people out there, desperate angry people, desperate angry people with guns	Feb 22 14:36
Guest33678	i am even depressing myself :)	Feb 22 14:37
schestowitz	Guest33678: in the US it's quiet	Feb 22 14:37
schestowitz	There's the atmosphere of wartime	Feb 22 14:37
schestowitz	People don't demand much in emergencies	Feb 22 14:37
Guest33678	the calm before the storm	Feb 22 14:37
schestowitz	But in France they take it to the streets	Feb 22 14:37
Guest33678	bring forth the guillotine	Feb 22 14:38
schestowitz	In general, I've read that Europeans are a lot less receptive and more rebellious because they know why they got abused and who is responsibk	Feb 22 14:38
schestowitz	*sible	Feb 22 14:38
schestowitz	Guest33678: crime rises	Feb 22 14:39
Guest33678	true	Feb 22 14:39
schestowitz	But that's an issue for the government to deal with	Feb 22 14:39
schestowitz	It was encouraging to see Obama saying some turth	Feb 22 14:39
schestowitz	The BBC commentator talked about the 'stimulus' BS when it was broadcasted live	Feb 22 14:39
schestowitz	It's all about creating optimism, she said	Feb 22 14:39
Guest33678	how many jobs are dependent on the survival of GM i wonder	Feb 22 14:39
oiaohm	Really there is one major risk of these stimulus packages	Feb 22 14:39
schestowitz	which is true, because they know it's just procrastination and making hope	Feb 22 14:40
oiaohm	If they don't work we are worse off that if they were not done.	Feb 22 14:40
schestowitz	The issue is, shoplifter soars and this is just the low-end of the scale.	Feb 22 14:40
Guest33678	Citibank and Bank of America are in grave trouble to	Feb 22 14:40
Guest33678	muggings go through the roof	Feb 22 14:40
schestowitz	When people also mug and resort to violence, then it'll be like Katrina	Feb 22 14:40
schestowitz	But not just i New Orleans	Feb 22 14:40
schestowitz	*in	Feb 22 14:40
Guest33678	burglaries	Feb 22 14:40
oiaohm	Australian people over ours is starting to get worried about how long it will take us to pay off the stimules package.	Feb 22 14:40
schestowitz	Guest33678: automobile industry in the US = 3 million jobs	Feb 22 14:41
oiaohm	Now USA's is bigger.	Feb 22 14:41
schestowitz	I heard it from two independent sources	Feb 22 14:41
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes, exactly.	Feb 22 14:41
oiaohm	Will it be even possiable to pay of that size debt.	Feb 22 14:41
Guest33678	there is something very big and very nasty just around the corner	Feb 22 14:41
schestowitz	It's like putting more drugs into a patient to calm him down after overdozing coke	Feb 22 14:41
oiaohm	Few of our states had the credit rating drop.	Feb 22 14:41
schestowitz	*dosing	Feb 22 14:41
oiaohm	So they now have to pay more interest.	Feb 22 14:41
oiaohm	There is a big nasty chain reaction sitting there.	Feb 22 14:42
oiaohm	That could make everything so far look minor.	Feb 22 14:42
Guest33678	the last shot of adrenalin to the cardiac arrested economy has run its course, we are now flatlining, and there is nothing they can do, the damage is done	Feb 22 14:42
schestowitz	Guest33678: what's the proposed resolution then?	Feb 22 14:42
schestowitz	I've seen this coming for years	Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz	Others did too	Feb 22 14:43
oiaohm	The correct resolutin is simple	Feb 22 14:43
oiaohm	No goverment is thinking of it.	Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz	They were marginalised for the opinion (the opinion that is was marginalised)	Feb 22 14:43
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oiaohm	Not send more cash in.	Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz	People don't want to believe such things until they happen. d/f global warning	Feb 22 14:43
oiaohm	Prevent cash leaking out the system.	Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz	*warming	Feb 22 14:43
oiaohm	Basically pick on banks.	Feb 22 14:43
oiaohm	Make them take pain.	Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz	That too	Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz	But they control authority	Feb 22 14:44
oiaohm	So avoiding everyone else suffering.	Feb 22 14:44
oiaohm	Like credit cards with 20 percent interest.	Feb 22 14:44
Guest33678	usury	Feb 22 14:44
schestowitz	The issue is that to orchestrate restoration of justice you need to find out who masterminded this	Feb 22 14:44
oiaohm	That is not helping the system work.	Feb 22 14:44
schestowitz	And then it gets ugly	Feb 22 14:44
schestowitz	Because peoplw without food will demand decentralisation ofg welath	Feb 22 14:44
oiaohm	You think about if. With a stroke of a pen you did away with all credit cards.	Feb 22 14:45
schestowitz	And those who are privileged might have people banging on their front door and waiting at the porch	Feb 22 14:45
oiaohm	And turned them all into interest free lones	Feb 22 14:45
Guest33678	i am inclined to believe that this may not have happened per chance, we will have to see what the end game is and how someone could benefit	Feb 22 14:45
oiaohm	People would have to live inside there means.	Feb 22 14:45
oiaohm	Few months would be chaos	Feb 22 14:45
Guest33678	true	Feb 22 14:45
oiaohm	But after that there would be more money in the system.	Feb 22 14:45
oiaohm	So simple cost to goverment almost nothing.	Feb 22 14:45
schestowitz	Stimuli means making it be worse but take longer to come	Feb 22 14:45
Guest33678	sustainable spending, living within ones means are alien concepts to most young people these days	Feb 22 14:46
oiaohm	Cost to banks major pain.	Feb 22 14:46
schestowitz	Maybe OBAMAA hopes to make it last 4 years	Feb 22 14:46
schestowitz	Like Bush did	Feb 22 14:46
schestowitz	Then he can hand it off to Republicans	Feb 22 14:46
schestowitz	They left Dems in a puddle of crap	Feb 22 14:46
oiaohm	Sustainable is the mode everyone needs to move into.	Feb 22 14:46
oiaohm	From that system will stablise.	Feb 22 14:47
schestowitz	Guest33678: that's to do with advertising. Consumption is culture	Feb 22 14:47
oiaohm	When it working ok again then reintroduce credt in a controlled way.	Feb 22 14:47
schestowitz	As one friend told me, in the US, shopping malls are the social places	Feb 22 14:47
Guest33678	ya	Feb 22 14:47
oiaohm	Remember that was done in the great depression as well.	Feb 22 14:47
oiaohm	Its the one thing that truly works.	Feb 22 14:47
schestowitz	People congragate around thwe ritual of vacationing and buying new things they needn't buy	Feb 22 14:47
oiaohm	Difference here you are wrong.	Feb 22 14:48
Guest33678	its a question of need versus want and not letting want win	Feb 22 14:48
schestowitz	Yes	Feb 22 14:48
schestowitz	Bad wording	Feb 22 14:48
oiaohm	Taking out credit cards gives them after a few months setting it more money to buy and vacation with.	Feb 22 14:48
schestowitz	/needn't/wantn't// :-)	Feb 22 14:48
oiaohm	Credit cards suck a lot of money up into fat cats who don't spend it.	Feb 22 14:49
oiaohm	In these times of trouble.	Feb 22 14:49
Guest33678	fractional banking doesn't help either	Feb 22 14:49
Guest33678	In Florida, a state devastated by tumbling house prices and repossessions, the inhabitants are arming themselves against recession, with requests for concealed weapon permits up 42 per cent in the past 45 days. In Moscow, the murder rate has climbed by 16 per cent. At Tetsuya's – the most exclusive and expensive restaurant in Sydney – the waiting list has shrunk from three months to 24 hours	Feb 22 14:51
schestowitz	URL?	Feb 22 14:51
Guest33678	http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopic...	Feb 22 14:52
Guest33678	you going to the gym later Roy?	Feb 22 14:53
schestowitz	Yes, what time..?	Feb 22 14:53
Guest33678	hang on a sec	Feb 22 14:54
Guest33678	in the evening maybe?	Feb 22 14:55
oiaohm	Funny enough most Australian banks are only minorally effected.	Feb 22 14:55
oiaohm	There was tighter regulation on what they could be invested in.	Feb 22 14:55
schestowitz	Probably 6	Feb 22 14:55
schestowitz	oiaohm: say them?	Feb 22 14:55
Guest33678	didnt the Australian government give a one thousand dollar subsidy to everybody at Christmas?	Feb 22 14:55
Guest33678	ok	Feb 22 14:56
oiaohm	No bank lone here can be great than 80 percent of the property value.	Feb 22 14:56
oiaohm	It was not 1 thousand dollars to everyone.	Feb 22 14:56
Guest33678	my friend just emigrated to here from Brisbane, i was running with him today	Feb 22 14:56
oiaohm	The thing was targeted at the poorest in the popultation.	Feb 22 14:56
Guest33678	means tested	Feb 22 14:57
oiaohm	Not exactly.	Feb 22 14:57
oiaohm	If you were in the cats that the goverment though would waste it you got it.	Feb 22 14:57
Guest33678	oh	Feb 22 14:58
oiaohm	Nice way of making sure a random money feed into the country happened.	Feb 22 14:58
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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 22nd, 2009 - Part 1

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