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03.05.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 4th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 12:14 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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jose honesty matters of course, but it can disappear quickly depending on circumstances Mar 04 18:13
Balrog true Mar 04 18:13
jose again, your closed source is not something i can optimize and use very much.. Mar 04 18:13
jose i see sw as a product not as an income stream Mar 04 18:14
Balrog but what should a programmer do if he wants to make money by selling his software? Mar 04 18:14
jose redesign is normal Mar 04 18:14
Balrog (what do you think) Mar 04 18:14
Balrog well, it takes work to make good software Mar 04 18:14
Balrog hours of time Mar 04 18:14
Balrog *many* hours Mar 04 18:14
Balrog for something well written Mar 04 18:14
jose are you asking me for a business model that will work in all cases? Mar 04 18:14
jose i don’t have one Mar 04 18:14
jose some devs will alternate with other taks/jobs Mar 04 18:15
Balrog then what business model would you go with in that case? Mar 04 18:15
jose eg, write and support software Mar 04 18:15
jose or work on customizations Mar 04 18:15
jose in short, if you want to code all the time, you might find that difficult to do and be all open Mar 04 18:15
jose but if you are really good you can get away with it Mar 04 18:16
jose and a support team will be placed around you Mar 04 18:16
jose have a contract where you code for “free” but the support of marketing side pays you Mar 04 18:16
Balrog well, if you use GPL, what prevents people from giving the code away…? Mar 04 18:17
jose if you want to be a one-person developer that only writes software.. you will need to go in with money to last you during the coding period Mar 04 18:17
jose no Mar 04 18:18
jose support is what pays the bills Mar 04 18:18
jose if you control the software.. only you know what will change over time Mar 04 18:18
Balrog that works for businesses Mar 04 18:18
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jose you know the code best and can best customize it Mar 04 18:18
Balrog but not for end-users Mar 04 18:18
jose faster turn around support implies higher fees Mar 04 18:18
Balrog end-users (the general public) don’t often go to the developer for support Mar 04 18:19
Balrog many are ignorant Mar 04 18:19
jose ok i see what you are saying.. the general answer is the same, but let me think for a second Mar 04 18:19
jose assuming we want to avoid any closed source plug-ins for example… Mar 04 18:20
jose try to strike contracts with those that make money off your work Mar 04 18:20
jose let me give you a link.. hold on.. Mar 04 18:20
Balrog yeah. Now what about the iphone app-store model…sell programs that do something small, for a low price….? Mar 04 18:20
Balrog (I’m waiting for the link btw…) Mar 04 18:21
*silentivm (n=renan@189.58.202.3.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 04 18:23
jose see this book http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_stor… Mar 04 18:23
jose there is a link there.. ok http://www.micheleboldrin.com/research/aim.html Mar 04 18:24
jose i think chapter one or two (if not 3) has a case of.. Mar 04 18:24
jose point is that without copyright Mar 04 18:25
jose british authors made money in the us (centuries ago) Mar 04 18:25
jose because of time-access deals Mar 04 18:25
jose ie, you deal with a distributor Mar 04 18:25
jose you gift a particular distributor in exchange for money Mar 04 18:25
jose who then sell the material cheaply and efficiently and quickly Mar 04 18:26
jose ok this was for hardcover books Mar 04 18:26
jose for pure software you’d need to adjust the storyline Mar 04 18:26
Balrog then the problem is that copyright is too long Mar 04 18:26
jose see who makes money off you and then look for a way to deal with that person Mar 04 18:27
jose google makes money on ads Mar 04 18:27
jose if you provide something of value, you have leverage Mar 04 18:27
Balrog I’ll be back Mar 04 18:27
jose even without monopoly leverage Mar 04 18:27
jose ok Mar 04 18:27
jose i’ll think about this some more Mar 04 18:27
jose here’s an example.. if your sw (not yet public but will become foss).. Mar 04 18:28
jose is great.. Mar 04 18:28
jose than past partners, eg, pc builders, will be willing to pay to get access before others Mar 04 18:29
jose they don’t have to pay too much per copy or a huge lump sum for you to have it be worth your time perhaps Mar 04 18:29
jose again, the developer that can leverage the community has an advantage Mar 04 18:29
jose and to leverage the community, you have to do something for it Mar 04 18:30
jose and the thing devs take most personally (pro or against) is revealing source Mar 04 18:30
jose at least i think so in general Mar 04 18:30
jose consider being the last line of defense in a support network Mar 04 18:30
jose you charge a “retainer” fee Mar 04 18:31
jose you may never need to address a support issue.. or only seldomly.. yet make some money Mar 04 18:31
jose maybe strike several such deals Mar 04 18:31
jose people writing software need and appreciate breaks in the action Mar 04 18:31
jose to think and plan as well as to smell the roses and prevent burn-out Mar 04 18:31
jose though the more you like your coding work, the longer you can stay below water Mar 04 18:32
jose without rising for a breath Mar 04 18:32
jose consider partnering up with an agent that will book contracts for you for a cut Mar 04 18:34
jose another idea.. Mar 04 18:36
jose let’s say i run a business where i have a captive audience and “entertain” them in relation to a distro Mar 04 18:36
jose I can get material to work with from you and pay you Mar 04 18:37
*silentivm has quit (“Leaving”) Mar 04 18:37
jose i might contract you as a consultant or to solve reader problems or handle their requests once a month say Mar 04 18:37
jose ie, sell your software to partners while striking a deal Mar 04 18:38
jose and look for future partners in those that are already leveraging your work Mar 04 18:38
jose the main code base takes up the most work and pays the least (say $0) Mar 04 18:38
jose but all the special expert addon services will be high margin (in terms of $/hr) Mar 04 18:39
jose just make sure you have enough of these side contracts to make you satisfied Mar 04 18:39
schestowitz This works well for Red Hat Mar 04 18:40
jose again, if you can leverage the community, you will go farther.. you will actually be making money with these deals on code partly contributed by others (and they can do the same back.. though you would likely be the main expert/authority leader) Mar 04 18:40
jose Red Hat also is large Mar 04 18:40
jose i was trying to focus on small independent developers .. maybe a one-person code army Mar 04 18:40
jose coding army Mar 04 18:40
schestowitz When Microsoft loses a foothold, which it has had in some areas, then it can’t leverage monopoly $ Mar 04 18:41
jose look at it this way Balrog (when you get back) and anyone else reading Mar 04 18:41
jose you are a limited resource.. not your code but you Mar 04 18:41
schestowitz Thar’s why it fight so hard against Linux sub-notebooks Mar 04 18:41
schestowitz Losing money in the process also in educational contracts Mar 04 18:41
jose there will be many others that will be able to profit off you but will compete with each other Mar 04 18:41
jose so you leverage that.. you give services that help the business of those others (or their competitors) Mar 04 18:42
schestowitz People ae vigilant though Mar 04 18:42
schestowitz It didn’t work for  Novell Mar 04 18:42
schestowitz People pay Red Hat to reward them. Mar 04 18:42
schestowitz Linuxcam: http://www.pixavi.com/news-pixa… Mar 04 18:43
jose i skipped that story on LT.. but just noticed that tux the penguin makes a cameo Mar 04 18:45
jose when all device manufacturers (sell hardware) support linux and leverage it.. they will be able to pay for linux hacking.. they have to because they will need it and won’t get their specifics done for free Mar 04 18:46
jose and many devices will use other parts of the stack and other software… like music software or whatever Mar 04 18:47
schestowitz http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/articl… “News of the recent sale was given to Linux.com employees and long-term contractors at the end of last November, when the editorial budget was not renewed, and Robin “Roblimo” Miller, the senior editor, received notice that he would be laid off. “ Mar 04 18:48
schestowitz “Asked about the reason why the transfer took so long, Jim Zemlin, the executive director of the Linux Foundation, refused comment. However, Jon Sobel, group president, media at SourceForge, replied, “There was no specific reason.” Mar 04 18:48
schestowitz So I guess Byfield lost his job there too? Mar 04 18:49
schestowitz “Neither Zemlin nor Sobel would discuss the price paid for the Linux Foundation — or whether, as some rumors would have it, the transference of the URL was a donation. “Anything I say will just provoke more questions,” Sobel says. “ Mar 04 18:49
schestowitz “The reason for the transfer is easy to see from the Linux Foundation’s perspective. “We also manage the Linux trademark, and obviously Linux.com is an important brand asset,” Zemlin says. Acquiring the URL, Zemlin adds, “just supports the activities that the Linux Foundation is already responsible for.” “ Mar 04 18:49
schestowitz There is something hostile about this whole thing, don’t you think? Mar 04 18:49
schestowitz “However, according to Zemlin, SourceForge approached the Linux Foundation about the sale — a move for which he gives the corporation the highest praise.” Mar 04 18:50
jose btw, schestowitz, the link i gave a little earlier is to a decent exposition arguing that copyrights and patents aren’t necessary not beneficial Mar 04 18:50
schestowitz “However, according to Zemlin, SourceForge approached the Linux Foundation about the sale — a move for which he gives the corporation the highest praise.” Mar 04 18:50
schestowitz So they’re not even sure what to do with it. Mar 04 18:50
jose i only read some of it and don’t think it captures the story accurately 100% but it’s decent Mar 04 18:50
schestowitz jose: yes, I read it all Mar 04 18:50
schestowitz It’ll also be posted for future ref Mar 04 18:51
schestowitz jose: maybe he’s bitter Mar 04 18:51
schestowitz If he’d lost his post there, then he’d be against LDN/LF Mar 04 18:51
schestowitz “Moreover, asked whether the former content of the site would be preserved, Zemlin replied,, “Absolutely.” Publishing an average of four stories each work day, Linux.com has been a major source of how-tos and community history, and some observers have been worried that this archival material might be lost in any transfer of the URL. Mar 04 18:52
schestowitz Mar 04 18:52
schestowitz Oh! Excellent: Mar 04 18:52
schestowitz “Asked specifically about whether Linux.com under the Foundation would accept advertising from Microsoft — a source of many readers’ complaints under SourceForge’s management — Zemlin replied, “We’re the Linux Foundation. It’s not like it’s in our interest to advertise Microsoft products. That’s pretty obvious.” “ Mar 04 18:52
schestowitz “Bruce Byfield is a former contributing editor at Linux.com “ Mar 04 18:53
jose who would be bitter? Mar 04 18:53
schestowitz Byfield. Mar 04 18:54
schestowitz OT: No mention of Bush’s crimes here: With Iraq plan, Obama embraces US militarism < http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/m… >. The US also overthrew this man: Jean-Bertrand Aristide remains potent force in Haiti < http://www.miamiherald.com/news/america… > Mar 04 18:54
jose that’s great that they might be smart about not advertizing the monopolist competing platform Mar 04 18:54
jose losing job is not nice  .. i hope there was ample time to plan Mar 04 18:54
schestowitz jose: with Google AdSense it is hard Mar 04 18:54
schestowitz They infiltrate BN as well Mar 04 18:55
schestowitz From many domains partners) Mar 04 18:55
schestowitz Groklaw needs to restore RSS Mar 04 18:55
schestowitz Many readers like me hardly know when something is even published. Readership there declines, obviously. Mar 04 18:55
schestowitz BN is now bigger than Groklaw I think, in terms of readership Mar 04 18:56
jose btw, i have always accepted ms ads on LT. i see it as a show of linux value Mar 04 18:56
jose but not advertizing ms would be preferable so that you can control the message Mar 04 18:56
amarsh04 I just run linuxtoday in lynx mode with adblock plus on Mar 04 18:57
amarsh04 itwire.com has some embedded ms ads in it that adblock plus can’t remove Mar 04 18:57
schestowitz jose: this is just the beginning of a depression and I hope that sites don’t go down or sell out Mar 04 18:57
jose also, linux.com is pretty central to linux.. maybe no ads or very select ads Mar 04 18:57
jose i hope it doesn’t get that bad Mar 04 18:58
schestowitz amarsh04: yes, itwire sold space to the Vole. I don’t like it. Mar 04 18:58
jose the economy Mar 04 18:58
amarsh04 people don’t quite get the term “vole” without having read the wind in the willows Mar 04 18:58
jose i suspect it might not Mar 04 18:58
schestowitz Why did Carla link to this (2007)? http://www.linuxjournal.co… Mar 04 18:59
jose is it recently linked Mar 04 18:59
schestowitz Recently I’ve had to check the date on anything I found in LinuxToday Mar 04 19:00
jose if so it might just be to help keep the marketing up Mar 04 19:00
jose not just news.. but linux advocacy Mar 04 19:00
schestowitz Last week I cited something from 1990 as though it was new Mar 04 19:00
amarsh04 she’s made a few date mistakes recently Mar 04 19:00
schestowitz Big oops about Apple layoffs, which are apparently coming anyway: http://www.pcworld.com/article/160615/ap… Mar 04 19:00
schestowitz amarsh04: she finds them in Digg Mar 04 19:01
amarsh04 I hate how big organisations that should have people checking their work seem to get away with shoddy work. If it’s just Carla Schroeder, I’m not quite so concerned Mar 04 19:02
amarsh04 she gets a few reminders in the talkbacks about errors like that Mar 04 19:03
jose i like older stuff if it is useful and not that frequent.. but it would be useful as well if the date were noted Mar 04 19:03
jose plus, judging by the dates doesn’t guarantee it’s not news Mar 04 19:03
jose a blog posting that has received little publicity might be news.. depending on context as well Mar 04 19:04
jose complaints like this isn’t Linux Last Year Mar 04 19:04
schestowitz :-) “Yea, verily, another update: Boycott Novel, which is becoming as much of a resource for in-depth coverage of FOSS-related legal matters as Groklaw, has a much more thorough examination of this story.” http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php Mar 04 19:05
jose i read that yesterday Mar 04 19:05
jose bn is a day late Mar 04 19:05
jose ;-) Mar 04 19:05
jose penguin pete Mar 04 19:05
jose yup Mar 04 19:05
jose i forgot to bring it up, btw, i think i was busy Mar 04 19:05
schestowitz I still need to mend the wiki Mar 04 19:05
schestowitz I could do it myself, but I want diagnosis from the hosters Mar 04 19:06
schestowitz What’s the point fixing something if it can recur? Mar 04 19:06
schestowitz Bad hiccups in general on the server since yesterday. Mar 04 19:06
jose getting back to foss businesses for independent devs… Mar 04 19:09
jose you can be a part and lead of a large app Mar 04 19:09
jose but build localized or specialized aspects to it for contract to enhance some other business (eg, a retailer) Mar 04 19:10
jose that’s just a variation of the same theme Mar 04 19:11
jose doing things a little different is odd at first, but it doesn’t make it bad Mar 04 19:11
jose the horse and carriage industry could not stay forever Mar 04 19:11
schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03… Mar 04 19:12
schestowitz Big news for Linux Mar 04 19:12
schestowitz Ballmer is afraid of Android because of that Mar 04 19:12
schestowitz Cloud+netbooks+Linux=the nightmare before Microsoft Mar 04 19:13
schestowitz New Linux rc: http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/3/3/485 Mar 04 19:14
jose i don’t expect to like googles subsidized netbook of the future Mar 04 19:15
jose well, if it’s actually free.. Mar 04 19:15
jose you probably couldn’t displace the OS.. though they should leave it open Mar 04 19:15
balzac It’s annoying how the OLPC project comes up all the time Mar 04 19:15
jose most people would not change it and attracting devs is good Mar 04 19:16
balzac it was a failure, for the most part Mar 04 19:16
balzac Negroponte sold out to Microsoft Mar 04 19:16
jose to you some, even if they replace you (google os), but it would help your partners so you (google) might benefit Mar 04 19:16
balzac Also, who would bother to use android on anything other than a phone? Mar 04 19:16
schestowitz This is not good: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505… Mar 04 19:17
balzac My only interest in the G1 is that I can put debian on it. Mar 04 19:17
schestowitz He goes to a company that sued FOSS? Mar 04 19:17
balzac I think Ballmer likes Android because it’s Linux without GNU. MS is just about ready to embrace “Open Source”, but they’ll always hate GNU and the GPL. Mar 04 19:18
schestowitz “[PJ: I can't resist pointing out that when SCO first sued IBM it told the media that it was not a fight against Linux developers, just a dispute between it and IBM. That proved untrue.]“ Mar 04 19:20
schestowitz Re: http://www.newmobilecomputing.com/story/21053/… [PJ: Just not in a good way, I'm guessing. So... is this the embrace part?] Mar 04 19:20
balzac Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer want to profit from “open source”, control it, subvert it, marginalize truly free software, never offer a mea culpa or apologize for their years of being belligerant and wrong about everything. Mar 04 19:28
balzac All of this in the interest of protecting their egos, because they can’t admit they clung to an archaic business model and licensing approach. Mar 04 19:29
trmanco Savannah now runs on Debian Lenny: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.co… Mar 04 19:30
balzac sweet Mar 04 19:32
schestowitz MS loves America: http://www.pcworld.com/article/160602/microsoft_d… Mar 04 19:32
schestowitz Aren’t treason principles somewhat of a law too? IANAL. Mar 04 19:33
schestowitz Microsoft is attacking competitors in cuort, corrupts politicians to illegalise their rivals and also sends its work to seatshops Mar 04 19:33
schestowitz *sweashop Mar 04 19:33
schestowitz Then, PearlyG shills for big phramas using poor kids. Mar 04 19:33
balzac They can’t stand freedom Mar 04 19:34
jose ohhhhhh, sweashop… now i get it Mar 04 19:34
jose i though you meant westchops Mar 04 19:35
jose or sweet hop Mar 04 19:35
balzac I call it “Bush’s undead talking points” when I recycle Bush’s rhetoric against people who share Bush’s ideology. Mar 04 19:35
schestowitz Balrog: seen my Bush refs above? Mar 04 19:36
balzac how far up? Mar 04 19:36
schestowitz *balzac Mar 04 19:36
schestowitz Found in RMS’ site: No mention of Bush’s crimes here: With Iraq plan, Obama embraces US militarism < http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/… >. The US also overthrew this man: Jean-Bertrand Aristide remains potent force in Haiti < http://www.miamiherald.com/news/amer… > Mar 04 19:36
balzac Actually, Obama’s innauguration speech borrowed some of Bush’s rhetorical style. I was annoyed. Mar 04 19:37
schestowitz He wrote it?? Mar 04 19:37
balzac “There are those who think…” Mar 04 19:37
schestowitz “One might suggest…” Mar 04 19:37
balzac There’s this young douche-bag speech writer he relies on Mar 04 19:37
schestowitz “One” Mar 04 19:37
schestowitz “If” Mar 04 19:37
schestowitz Balrog: it’s all PR Mar 04 19:38
schestowitz formerly known as “Propaganda” Mar 04 19:38
schestowitz Learn how Clinton bought the election with PR agents Mar 04 19:38
balzac I thought it was just very lazy speech-writing in that case. Mar 04 19:38
schestowitz Hold on, I’ll fetch the vid Mar 04 19:38
schestowitz Here is episode 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v… Mar 04 19:40
schestowitz But wait… there’s another one Mar 04 19:40
schestowitz About Thatcher and Clinton Mar 04 19:40
schestowitz Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlg6nFaMfyA… Mar 04 19:42
balzac My question about Obama’s militarism is this: Does he intend to build on it, or is he going to taper it off? Mar 04 19:42
schestowitz Short story: all about deceiving public, not expressing POV on real issues. Mar 04 19:42
schestowitz Welcome to the United States of Advertising. Mar 04 19:42
balzac Chomsky’s “Manufacturing Consent” has to be the ultimate expose on PR Mar 04 19:43
balzac I can’t watch youtube vids because my employer has an angle where he can see my monitor obliquely Mar 04 19:43
schestowitz Microsoft partner has just sued Red Hat Mar 04 19:43
balzac that’s good Mar 04 19:44
balzac I prefer to see animosity between MS and RH Mar 04 19:44
balzac no kumbaya Mar 04 19:44
schestowitz At least you know the scum you deal with Mar 04 19:45
schestowitz First Acacia.. Mar 04 19:45
amarsh04 I’m still waiting for Jude Dale Kimball sentencing Darl McBride to singing Kumbaya by a campfire Mar 04 19:45
amarsh04 Judge even Mar 04 19:46
balzac sentence him to sing the Free Software Song Mar 04 19:47
amarsh04 hehehe Mar 04 19:47
balzac Make him start an accapella group, just for that one song. Mar 04 19:47
tessier_ Sentence him to listen to RMS sing the Free Software Song Mar 04 19:47
balzac nobody deserves that Mar 04 19:47
balzac jk Mar 04 19:48
Balrog schestowitz: why were you mentioning my nick often? Mar 04 19:54
Balrog did you mean balzac? Mar 04 19:54
schestowitz Yes Mar 04 19:54
schestowitz Autocomplete Mar 04 19:54
Balrog ok Mar 04 19:54
Balrog ew. Make it non case-sensitive then Mar 04 19:55
balzac Roy doesn’t want to have to type “balz” Mar 04 19:55
Balrog the first letter of my nick is uppercase Mar 04 19:55
schestowitz I keep seeing the wrong hypothesis that Windows is ahead of GNU/Linux, which obviously does not run _just on desktops_. Mar 04 19:59
balzac yeah, because so many IT pundits aren’t very aware of servers because they’re not coming from an IT background. Mar 04 20:02
balzac Lots of people just think and write about PCs, as if the rest of the computers don’t even exist. Mar 04 20:03
amarsh04 what controls their vehicle’s fuel injection system, what is in their microwave, washing machine, mobile handset, adsl router… Mar 04 20:06
Balrog linux or some other embedded OS Mar 04 20:06
Balrog like wind river vxworks or RTOS Mar 04 20:06
schestowitz Hehe. linux too f*@King easy to install < http://noronha.id.au/?p=142 > Mar 04 20:07
Balrog or in many cases, it’s custom code for a uC Mar 04 20:07
amarsh04 don’t ee students get told about the intel 4004 and motorola 6509 cpus? Mar 04 20:08
amarsh04 calculator and washing machine chips respectively Mar 04 20:08
Balrog Not sure. I don know that they work with PIC chips and FPGAs Mar 04 20:08
Balrog and Verilog Mar 04 20:08
amarsh04 what did the z80 start out as? Mar 04 20:08
Balrog i DO know ** Mar 04 20:08
MinceR 8080, iirc Mar 04 20:09
Balrog the Z80 is very different from the 8080 Mar 04 20:09
amarsh04 what should they think when some piece of equipment has big square chips labelled xilinix? Mar 04 20:09
Balrog also it was a royalty-free design Mar 04 20:09
MinceR isn’t the z80 an extended 8080 clone? Mar 04 20:09
schestowitz Microsoft to Release Windows Linux! <  http://linugadgetech.blogspot.com/2009/03/… > Mar 04 20:09
MinceR suse to be renamed? Mar 04 20:10
Balrog you coud say so, though the instruction sets are not directly Mar 04 20:10
Balrog compatible Mar 04 20:10
MinceR ic Mar 04 20:10
Balrog also it was a royalty-free design Mar 04 20:10
amarsh04 not forgetting the 8051 Mar 04 20:10
Balrog that’s why it became so successful Mar 04 20:10
amarsh04 another argument for free designs Mar 04 20:11
Balrog what about the MOS 6502 and the Motorola/freescale 68000 series? Mar 04 20:11
Balrog the 68K is still used in embedded devices Mar 04 20:11
amarsh04 e.g. Novell with the NE2000 ethernet card Mar 04 20:11
amarsh04 I forget that people wouldn’t remember 68000 from amiga/atari/apple lisa/macintosh Mar 04 20:12
Balrog I used to use 68000 macs Mar 04 20:12
Balrog and I have a TI calculator with a 68000 Mar 04 20:12
amarsh04 one needs to learn of the equivalence (and shortcomings) of each way of implementing digital logic – it explains how new generations built on the old Mar 04 20:15
Balrog yes Mar 04 20:15
Balrog they emphasize FPGA’s a lot Mar 04 20:16
Balrog xilinx stuff Mar 04 20:16
amarsh04 they can be handy black boxes, but knowing the architectural building blocks also helps improve what you can do with them (or replace them with asics) Mar 04 20:17
amarsh04 see the opengraphics mailing list for lots of gory details Mar 04 20:18
Balrog Yeah. But when you program an FPGA isn’t it impossible to get the code out Mar 04 20:18
Balrog ? Mar 04 20:18
amarsh04 yes, you basically have verilog code that the xilinix software translates into a xilinix implementation Mar 04 20:19
Balrog yes. Mar 04 20:19
Balrog The xilinx compilers aren’t FOSS though… Mar 04 20:19
amarsh04 exactly Mar 04 20:19
Balrog are there *any* FOSS verilog or vhdl compilers that work with mainstream FPGA’s? Mar 04 20:20
amarsh04 one would need an open and non obsolete fpga Mar 04 20:20
*MinceR remembers working with xilinx foundation Mar 04 20:21
MinceR it was a pain Mar 04 20:21
amarsh04 in a counterpoint to jose’s earlier discussion, if xilinix were more floss friendly, they might open up the specifications and licensing of their older fpga’s Mar 04 20:22
Balrog they should … Mar 04 20:22
amarsh04 remember what a pain it was when intel didn’t second-source the 80386 and we had to wait for amd to clone it? Mar 04 20:23
Balrog yeah Mar 04 20:23
amarsh04 lots of people kept buying and running 80286 machines since intel kept the price of the ’386 high Mar 04 20:23
Balrog yes. Mar 04 20:24
Balrog any comment on Mar 04 20:25
Balrog http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl… Mar 04 20:25
Balrog ? Mar 04 20:25
amarsh04 I don’t usually look at /. – groklaw covered it very heavily in the past… lots of heat and some light was shed on the subject with the conclusion being that software patents are equivalent to mathematics and thus not patentable Mar 04 20:27
Balrog yeah but this is about patents in general Mar 04 20:27
amarsh04 people like monsanto even less than some of the software patenters Mar 04 20:28
Balrog yeah … patenting human genes :( Mar 04 20:29
amarsh04 remember how patents stifled .us aviation development Mar 04 20:29
amarsh04 like patents stifled steam engine development a century or so earlier Mar 04 20:29
Balrog heh yeah Mar 04 20:30
Balrog but don’t patents have their place? Mar 04 20:30
amarsh04 I tend to think that they should be more aligned to particular implementations of a physical transformation, not all possible implementations of a physical transformation Mar 04 20:31
Balrog ok. Mar 04 20:31
Balrog but isn’t something not patentable if it’s the only way to do it Mar 04 20:32
Balrog ? Mar 04 20:32
amarsh04 that hasn’t stopped patents before unfortunately Mar 04 20:32
amarsh04 definitions of “obvious to someone skilled in the art” and such Mar 04 20:32
amarsh04 and some patents deserve to be bought out and freed, like the safety match Mar 04 20:33
Balrog or licensed for very low prices Mar 04 20:34
schestowitz Knowledge ‘licensed’… hehe.. Mar 04 20:35
schestowitz Did you school teacher license her words to you? Mar 04 20:35
Balrog that wasn’t original work Mar 04 20:36
schestowitz “I hereby license you the knowledge on how to wipe behind… you may now proceed to the bathroom” Mar 04 20:36
Balrog prior art Mar 04 20:36
Balrog can’t do it Mar 04 20:36
Balrog heh Mar 04 20:36
amarsh04 PJ Plaugher of C++ fame had a couple of books could “programming on purpose” and one chapter was called “books for our time” that talked of ficticious book titles such as “the programming of art’s computer”, “strictured programming”, “disciplining programmers” and the like Mar 04 20:38
Balrog and what about them? Mar 04 20:39
amarsh04 I was disappointed that he didn’t include “the accidental programmer” Mar 04 20:39
Balrog heh Mar 04 20:39
Balrog there’s a book ‘How Not to Program in C++’ Mar 04 20:39
Balrog quite interesting Mar 04 20:39
jose patents work when the inventors at the forefront (teachers aren’t it) are in very small numbers and the field is closed off to many for practical reasons (eg, high costs to develop) and there are alternative ways around the invention Mar 04 20:39
amarsh04 it’s interesting to see how many people do the opposite of what is considered good programming practice. Lots of times it doesn’t work, but sometimes it does Mar 04 20:40
Balrog yeah Mar 04 20:40
amarsh04 the linux kernel development is a good case in point… strict coding style, but not a big top-down design Mar 04 20:41
jose patents.. monopolies..is a bit like the proprietary question. Mar 04 20:41
jose the difference is that with proprietary monopolies, the market has to overcome lock-in Mar 04 20:41
amarsh04 accidental programmers include those who start with a spreadsheet and make ever more complex macros Mar 04 20:41
jose with patents, you have to overcome the (us) government Mar 04 20:42
Balrog ohh. :/ Mar 04 20:42
Balrog patents are in the constitution. Won’t go away ever Mar 04 20:42
jose to promote the science and useful arts Mar 04 20:42
Balrog yes Mar 04 20:42
Balrog not inhibit Mar 04 20:42
jose if they don’t promote, congress is not doing its job Mar 04 20:43
jose sw patents don’t promote Mar 04 20:43
Balrog certainly not Mar 04 20:43
jose in terms of a fix, the 20 years fixed monopoly is way off the mark Mar 04 20:43
jose patents are too broad Mar 04 20:44
jose and if you want to promote.. Mar 04 20:44
jose it makes little sense to give a monopoly and handcuff the many other inventors working in that area or that will work there eventually Mar 04 20:44
Balrog well patents aren’t supposed to be this broad Mar 04 20:44
Balrog why can software be copyrighted then? Mar 04 20:44
jose i’m fairly sure (not certain) that copyrights aren’t as broad Mar 04 20:45
jose they are also automatic Mar 04 20:45
jose forget the automatic for a second though Mar 04 20:45
amarsh04 copyrights are for particular expressions of an idea or set of ideas Mar 04 20:45
Balrog copyrights certainly aren’t as broad Mar 04 20:46
jose the “derivative” is a little scary, depending on how you take it Mar 04 20:46
jose there is fair use Mar 04 20:46
jose it’s the derivative clause that makes me hesitate in terms of scope Mar 04 20:47
Balrog a derivative has to be clearly derived from the original Mar 04 20:47
Balrog a separate implementation that accomplishes the same purpose isn’t a derivative Mar 04 20:47
Balrog now what about games and such? Mar 04 20:47
jose here is my question..this became a question recently Mar 04 20:48
jose if you abstract ideas from the copyrighted work, and reuse them, could this be a derivative Mar 04 20:48
jose eg, you repeat the plot main characters themes etc of a story, but the words are completely different Mar 04 20:48
Balrog I suppose it depends Mar 04 20:49
Balrog you can take from the plot and reuse it, but it has to be significantly different Mar 04 20:49
jose i would have thought that was ok and hence copyright much more reasonable, but i worry now Mar 04 20:49
jose well the plot is an abstraction of the literal text Mar 04 20:49
jose so in this sense it is broad like patents in that it protects your expression and many other expressions like it Mar 04 20:50
Balrog From what I hear, the plot isn’t protected… Mar 04 20:50
jose one difference though is that the copyright scope seems to be based on some sort of standard Mar 04 20:50
Balrog but then again, a very complicated plot may not be easy to reuse. Mar 04 20:50
jose in the patent case, the patent writer almost appears to define the scope (as long as they don’t go too far i think) Mar 04 20:50
Balrog (without copying) Mar 04 20:50
PetoKraus hehe Mar 04 20:50
PetoKraus archlinux has now oficially included nouveau in it’s repositories Mar 04 20:51
PetoKraus :D Mar 04 20:51
Balrog a patent that is too broad shouldn’t be allowed Mar 04 20:51
Balrog PetoKraus: does it *work*? Mar 04 20:51
PetoKraus well Mar 04 20:51
PetoKraus i used to run it since february Mar 04 20:51
PetoKraus git-compiled Mar 04 20:51
PetoKraus and yes Mar 04 20:51
PetoKraus the Xorg seems to be running Mar 04 20:52
PetoKraus lemme walk to my 2nd machine Mar 04 20:52
Balrog ok…stable enough? Mar 04 20:53
PetoKraus right, it works Mar 04 20:57
PetoKraus dunno, and i’ll never know enough since i’m not using the machine Mar 04 20:57
PetoKraus but it’s nice effort from Arch Mar 04 20:57
PetoKraus it’s good to have it in testing, at least Mar 04 20:58
*jose has quit (“Leaving”) Mar 04 20:58
Balrog ok. Mar 04 21:02
PetoKraus what’s your problem Mar 04 21:03
Balrog mine? Mar 04 21:03
PetoKraus yeah Mar 04 21:03
Balrog I heard that it’s unusable Mar 04 21:03
Balrog too unstable Mar 04 21:03
PetoKraus it’s better than nv Mar 04 21:03
PetoKraus and fedora is moving to it by default Mar 04 21:03
PetoKraus i don’t know who told you it’s unstable. it’s probably as unstable as any other driver… Mar 04 21:04
schestowitz F11, indeed Mar 04 21:04
PetoKraus and no 3D Mar 04 21:04
schestowitz http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi… (Toy retailer ToysRUs has paid $5.1m (£3.6m) for the Toys.com domain name.) Mar 04 21:09
schestowitz It’s really stupid that silly names on the Web become gold mines. You give people the ability to hijack and extort Mar 04 21:10
*adam (i=8dd314b4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-19e8b8644f16268b) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 04 21:19
adam hello Mar 04 21:20
adam anybody here? Mar 04 21:20
*adam is now known as Guest49774 Mar 04 21:20
Guest49774 anybody here know how to do a silent uninstall of zenworks? Mar 04 21:22
schestowitz He Mar 04 21:25
schestowitz What’s up? Mar 04 21:25
schestowitz Technical support isn’t really something that fits here, esp. not for things like zenworks Mar 04 21:26
Balrog isn’t there a channel for that? Mar 04 21:30
schestowitz It sounds like a good thing though — uninstalling Novellware Mar 04 21:31
schestowitz Balrog: some people came here before for Novell support, arguing that no other channels exist (about Novell tech) Mar 04 21:32
Balrog there certainly are channels for that Mar 04 21:32
Balrog I believe there’s /j #xen Mar 04 21:32
schestowitz [sarcasm /] we should really set up a site for Novell tech support—only for uninstallation of software. Mar 04 21:32
amarsh04 zenworks is completely different to xen though Mar 04 21:32
Balrog there’s #xen I think Mar 04 21:33
amarsh04 remembers the old bit.listserv.novell Mar 04 21:33
schestowitz Cirtix? Mar 04 21:33
schestowitz *Citrix.   As for Novell: They still have newsgroups Mar 04 21:33
Balrog yeah …. so with the upgrade to fedora 10, our sysadmin is moving some systems from Xen to KVM Mar 04 21:33
*Guest49774 has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Mar 04 21:36
schestowitz Georg from FSFE is overly optimistic: “Predicting that the recession would probably end “sometime this year”, he said the downturn…” http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0… Mar 04 22:03
schestowitz More new misuse of the term “open source”: http://www.metropolismag.com/story/2… Mar 04 22:04
tessier_ schestowitz: I don’t see that as having anything to do with software. Mar 04 22:11
tessier_ Used in a totally different non-software context I don’t know why we would care. Mar 04 22:11
schestowitz Exactly. It’s becoming common that… open source sex, open source energy… this pollutes the news feeds. Mar 04 22:12
schestowitz Another new example: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/… (I have about 5 items about this in my feed) Mar 04 22:12
tessier_ “I am trying to share with everyone how to make design products with their own hands, without a designer, and without purchasing them—like open source software on Internet.” Mar 04 22:13
tessier_ Actually it seems to be inspired by OSS. Mar 04 22:13
schestowitz I sometimes wonder if it would be better has OSI enforced and policed the term “open source”. The trouble is that Microsoft too is exploiting this by diluting and confusing. Mar 04 22:14
schestowitz Another excellent talk from Lessig; http://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/03/me_g… Mar 04 22:28
tessier_ It’s funny how ordinary people seem to prefer “open source” also Mar 04 22:28
tessier_ I don’t know anyone but FSF people who religiously say “free software” Mar 04 22:29
MinceR gn Mar 04 22:30
MinceR they probably find the term “free software” confusing Mar 04 22:30
tessier_ I’m not sure why they would though. Mar 04 22:31
tessier_ I think it’s just that people think free means worthless Mar 04 22:32
tessier_ Or they are in business selling something and don’t want to promote the idea of giving things away for free Mar 04 22:32
schestowitz tessier: associations Mar 04 22:32
tessier_ But this has been debated many times unfortunately and it’s all because of the stupid english language. Mar 04 22:32
schestowitz They think freeware Mar 04 22:32
schestowitz Not Apache Mar 04 22:32
MinceR or they find it inadequately distinct from “freeware” Mar 04 22:32
schestowitz They think of it as something you get in a cereal box Mar 04 22:33
*schestowitz can’t believe the host still looks into the Wiki issue. Just as an update, the problem I initially reported solved itself when the SQL server was restarted at the host’s end (boycottnovell wordpress works OK now). One problem that remained (it may be connected) is that database boycottnovell wiki became corrupt. Mar 04 22:35
schestowitz I don’t know if the downtimes were related to these DB issues that had nothing to do with us. Maybe someone upgraded/patched MySQL? Stupid thing never happens in my other host. Checking the DB gives: “boycottn_wiki.archive Error : Incorrect information in file: ‘./boycottn_wiki/archive.frm’ error : Corrupt boycottn_wiki.category Error : Incorrect information in file: ‘./boycottn_wiki/category.frm’ error : Corrupt …” Mar 04 22:36
*tessier_ is going to migrate his website to a django based setup Mar 04 22:41
tessier_ Plone is just too much anymore. Mar 04 22:41
schestowitz Migrating? Mar 04 22:44
schestowitz In /. today: http://www.playingwithwire.com/2009/03/open-so… Mar 04 22:45
schestowitz http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/vi… (Visit the OpenOffice.org Planet) Mar 04 22:46
tessier_ Yeah, migrating. I can’t even reliably remember how to post a new blog entry to my Plone Quills blog. Mar 04 22:51
tessier_ It’s just a big mess. Mar 04 22:51
tessier_ I stuck with Plone for nearly 5 years but now I’m doing django. It’s time. Mar 04 22:52
schestowitz Same with PHP-Nuke Mar 04 22:52
schestowitz If I don’t use it for a while, then the GUIs take a while to recall Mar 04 22:52
schestowitz http://ideaforge.linux.com/ Mar 04 22:58
schestowitz Strange thing is, Linux Foundation is the kernel, but the proposals are application layer. At least we won’t be seeing Win-only or Mac-only software there like in ‘ol linux.com.. and no MS ads Mar 04 22:59
tessier_ grab how? Mar 04 23:06
schestowitz Did I say “Grab”? Mar 04 23:07
tessier_ oops…wrong window Mar 04 23:07
schestowitz :-) Mar 04 23:07
tessier_ I could swear I just saw someone talking about grabbing the good user id’s in linux.com Mar 04 23:07
*schestowitz checks if “tinkerbell” is taken Mar 04 23:08
schestowitz “Nancy Gohring is an IDG News Service correspondent based in Seattle, WA. She covers mobile phones, Microsoft and technology companies in the Pacific Northwest.” http://www.idg.com/www/HomeNew.nsf/docs/Nancy_Gohring Mar 04 23:10
schestowitz Seattle Times… that explains it. Mar 04 23:10
schestowitz Motorola Fired CFO Liska for Cause < http://www.pcworld.com/article/160700/motoro… > Mar 04 23:11
schestowitz Democracy can’t exist without newspapers < http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/pr… >. Only newspapers can speak?? http://techdirt.com/articles/20090… Mar 04 23:15
*mib_pkvdi3 (i=45fef63a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-82f348246bccd36b) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 04 23:17
*mib_pkvdi3 has quit (Client Quit) Mar 04 23:18
schestowitz Google Won’t Remove Pages About You < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/03/0… > Mar 04 23:20
schestowitz fficial Finance For Android App Launches < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/03/0… > Mar 04 23:20
schestowitz IDC trying to make civil wars? http://www.pcworld.com/article/160670/google_… (Google Disses Twitter) Mar 04 23:57
schestowitz http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/26… “SKYPE COO, Scott Durchslag, blasted European telcos for trying to block his company’s path and delivered a “call to action” to form what he described as “win-win” partnerships with mobile operators and announced an alliance with text-to-speech outfit SpinVox.” Mar 04 23:59
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