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03.06.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 6th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 11:38 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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_Hicham_ but the choice of WTL is what is making things hard to port to Linux Mar 06 11:06
_Hicham_ the first problem of WTL is that it is undocumented Mar 06 11:06
oiaohm You are building something as a testing ground. Mar 06 11:07
_Hicham_ it is a Microsoft’s Open Source Library Mar 06 11:07
oiaohm You don’t think that is going to last long term. Mar 06 11:07
_Hicham_ it is Mar 06 11:07
oiaohm Yep you use what ever your programmers in your group know. Mar 06 11:07
oiaohm Now where it decides to last long term you have major head aches. Mar 06 11:07
_Hicham_ no one knows WTL Mar 06 11:08
_Hicham_ that is the question Mar 06 11:08
_Hicham_ they must have worked with the guy who wrote WTL Mar 06 11:08
oiaohm Some university gradueds do. Mar 06 11:08
_Hicham_ not very much Mar 06 11:08
_Hicham_ since it is undocumented Mar 06 11:08
oiaohm http://wtl.sourceforge.net/  << What do you mean undocumented? Mar 06 11:09
_Hicham_ yes Mar 06 11:09
_Hicham_ look for the doc there Mar 06 11:09
_Hicham_ you wont find anything Mar 06 11:09
oiaohm Guess what some Uni do a subject on. Mar 06 11:10
_Hicham_ possible Mar 06 11:10
oiaohm Documenting code Mar 06 11:10
_Hicham_ there have been some documentation projects for it Mar 06 11:10
oiaohm Becides WTL does not port. Mar 06 11:10
oiaohm It depends on ATL and MS interals. Mar 06 11:10
_Hicham_ yes Mar 06 11:10
_Hicham_ that is my point Mar 06 11:11
_Hicham_ you are finally getting it Mar 06 11:11
oiaohm Google was building a testing platform. Mar 06 11:11
oiaohm Not something ever with the idea of being a used product. Mar 06 11:11
_Hicham_ it has an official release now Mar 06 11:11
oiaohm That happens big ass headache. Mar 06 11:11
oiaohm To correct. Mar 06 11:11
_Hicham_ it is not beta anymore Mar 06 11:12
oiaohm It would be almost simpler to recode the complete thing. Mar 06 11:12
schestowitz _Hicham_: I’m still here Mar 06 11:12
_Hicham_ recode the complete thing? Mar 06 11:12
oiaohm WTL is not the only problem. Mar 06 11:12
_Hicham_ do u know how many libraries they used? Mar 06 11:12
green999 so does chrome then have nasty dependencies? Mar 06 11:12
_Hicham_ yes Mar 06 11:12
oiaohm The secuirty framework google developer created does not port either. Mar 06 11:12
oiaohm WTL is not even a major problem. Mar 06 11:13
_Hicham_ so they are not intending to port it to Linux Mar 06 11:13
_Hicham_ oiaohm : tell me about the real problem? Mar 06 11:13
oiaohm They are intending to port to Linux _Hicham_ Mar 06 11:13
_Hicham_ how? Mar 06 11:13
_Hicham_ by rewriting the code completely? Mar 06 11:13
_Hicham_ If you take for example Mar 06 11:14
_Hicham_ Google Earth Mar 06 11:14
oiaohm Yep by rewriting large blocks of code completely. Mar 06 11:14
oiaohm Because there is no other option for some of them. Mar 06 11:14
_Hicham_ it has been developed from the beginning to be cross-platform Mar 06 11:14
_Hicham_ and for that, they used Qt Mar 06 11:14
oiaohm Because Google Earth was not a experment. Mar 06 11:14
oiaohm Google developers learnt a really hard leason with chrome Mar 06 11:15
oiaohm Never ever thing an expermient will not end up suck in existance. Mar 06 11:15
oiaohm thing/think Mar 06 11:15
_Hicham_ ok, if you believe so Mar 06 11:16
_Hicham_ i never red that Chrome is an experiment Mar 06 11:16
_Hicham_ all the official annoucements said it is the brand new browser from Google Mar 06 11:16
oiaohm Did you see all the leaks and talk about it before the offical release. Mar 06 11:17
_Hicham_ not all of them Mar 06 11:17
oiaohm Google developers were already in it up to there neck before the release. Mar 06 11:17
schestowitz Google should have thought about their code prior to hastily throwing this browser out there. Mar 06 11:18
schestowitz Maybe Microsofters on staff Mar 06 11:18
green999 xiti stopped making maps: Mar 06 11:18
green999 http://www.xitimonitor.com/en-us/browse… Mar 06 11:18
_Hicham_ Roy understands me Mar 06 11:18
green999 is there a 2008 or 2009 map that is public? Mar 06 11:18
oiaohm http://code.google.com/p/chromium/…  chromium to Linux still a on going process Mar 06 11:18
schestowitz green999: no cache? Mar 06 11:18
schestowitz oiaohm: many people use Firefox if it comes with Linux Mar 06 11:19
schestowitz Google faces an uphill battle here. Mar 06 11:19
oiaohm I know Mar 06 11:20
_Hicham_ Google can’t catch up with Firefox Mar 06 11:20
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v… Mar 06 11:20
oiaohm Really some of google secuirty ideas are great. Mar 06 11:20
_Hicham_ Firefox is already very popular Mar 06 11:20
oiaohm I would like to see them in Firefox Mar 06 11:21
_Hicham_ like private browsing? Mar 06 11:21
oiaohm Crash protection. Mar 06 11:21
oiaohm One tab crashes that is all that goes. Mar 06 11:21
_Hicham_ crash protection? Mar 06 11:21
green999 nothing to cache Mar 06 11:21
green999 they seem to have stopped making the maps Mar 06 11:21
oiaohm Each tab in chromium is a independant process. Mar 06 11:21
green999 the old ones are still there and the data shows that MSIE is on average on the way out as far as usage goes Mar 06 11:22
oiaohm So yes can go complete splat without effecting the main interface. Mar 06 11:22
green999 yes ff is very popular, but how popular in which countries Mar 06 11:22
green999 MSIE doesn’t go away until you erase windows Mar 06 11:22
_Hicham_ MSIE is the base of Windows Mar 06 11:22
oiaohm Really you get people trying to run MSIE in Wine. Mar 06 11:23
oiaohm That gets really interesting to say the least. Mar 06 11:23
_Hicham_ I run MSIE on Wine from time to time Mar 06 11:23
_Hicham_ for MSIE only websites Mar 06 11:23
green999 h: it’s there and can be triggered by activex exploits in other programs Mar 06 11:25
green999 it’s there until the machine no longer has windows Mar 06 11:25
oiaohm They are there in wine version as well. Mar 06 11:25
oiaohm Yes eep. Mar 06 11:25
oiaohm Record so far is 200 viruses running in wine. Mar 06 11:26
_Hicham_ but ActiveX controls can’t do much to Wine Mar 06 11:26
_Hicham_ oiaohm : are they harmful? Mar 06 11:26
oiaohm Depends how dumb the user is. Mar 06 11:26
oiaohm sudo wine Mar 06 11:26
oiaohm Pray. Mar 06 11:26
oiaohm Wine + root + viruses = 1 dead Linux box. Mar 06 11:27
_Hicham_ sudo wine? Mar 06 11:27
_Hicham_ never heard of that Mar 06 11:27
_Hicham_ who is dumb enough to do that? Mar 06 11:27
oiaohm Reason lot of viruses cannot tell the difference between a Linux elf file and a PE file when running inside wine. Mar 06 11:27
oiaohm So they infect everything. Mar 06 11:27
schestowitz sudo make sandwich Mar 06 11:27
green999 speaking of wine, i notice that google’s picasa is not running on linux Mar 06 11:27
green999 it runs on wine Mar 06 11:27
oiaohm Including kernel image. Mar 06 11:27
oiaohm So yep 100 percent dead Linux if someone is that dumb. Mar 06 11:28
green999 s: http://xkcd.com/149/ Mar 06 11:28
oiaohm Read darwin awards there are humans out there that dumb _Hicham_ Mar 06 11:28
green999 what goal does google have in using picasa to undermine opengl? Mar 06 11:28
schestowitz GOOG: “We’ve also noticed a more disturbing trend: in many of these cases, the patents being asserted against us are owned by — and in a surprising number of cases, are even “invented” by — patent lawyers themselves.” http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/200… Mar 06 11:29
_Hicham_ Roy : a lot of developers include a special “love” target in their Makefiles, so when you type “make love”, you are answered properly :D Mar 06 11:29
schestowitz find target Mar 06 11:29
oiaohm http://picasa.google.com/linux/  So not using the Linux releation green999? Mar 06 11:30
schestowitz _Hicham_: at Microsoft corporation they make “War” a target Mar 06 11:31
schestowitz That pleases their devs when they use gcc Mar 06 11:32
green999 o: http://picasa.google.com/linux/faq.html#24 Mar 06 11:33
green999 o: picasa is not for linux, it’s for wine.  it’s a trojan for introducing directx Mar 06 11:33
green999 as in all-your-photos-are-belong-to-bill Mar 06 11:34
oiaohm Not really green999 Mar 06 11:34
_Hicham_ DirectX is very bad Mar 06 11:34
oiaohm Wined3d is not MS direct x Mar 06 11:34
green999 o: install it without wine… Mar 06 11:34
_Hicham_ it is one of the things that kept linux away from games Mar 06 11:34
_Hicham_ it is also bad that developers rely on it Mar 06 11:35
oiaohm Really in time why will it matter. Mar 06 11:35
_Hicham_ Roy, I think that GNU should provide an IDE which is as good as MSVC Mar 06 11:35
oiaohm Galuim3d and DRI2 interface allow multiable graphical rendering systems like opengl and others to be used side by side. Mar 06 11:36
_Hicham_ that way, devs won’t go to Billy Mar 06 11:36
_Hicham_ are they used in games? Mar 06 11:36
_Hicham_ that is the question Mar 06 11:36
oiaohm wined3d is used by emulators Mar 06 11:36
oiaohm on windows. Mar 06 11:36
oiaohm To be correct virtual machines. Mar 06 11:37
oiaohm Wine is a wrapper to opengl. Mar 06 11:37
_Hicham_ but emulation is not a correct solution Mar 06 11:37
_Hicham_ opengl is supported natively on linux Mar 06 11:37
oiaohm Galuim3d and DRI2 do allow for direct x to be done native as well. Mar 06 11:38
green999 opengl is supported natively on most systems AFAIK Mar 06 11:38
green999 No linux version of picasa: http://picasa.google.com/support/bi… Mar 06 11:38
oiaohm Wine as forced to go threw opengl due to the design of the video stack in X11. Mar 06 11:38
*MinceR_ is now known as MinceR Mar 06 11:38
*jose (n=jose@adsl-233-56-48.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 11:38
_Hicham_ especially for games, you have to do a lot of optimizations during build process Mar 06 11:38
oiaohm Also opengl has not worked perfectly in X11 either. Mar 06 11:38
oiaohm X11 was only designed for one application. Mar 06 11:38
_Hicham_ oiaohm : did you try it? Mar 06 11:39
oiaohm to use opengl at a time. Mar 06 11:39
green999 Specifically, no linux version of picasa: http://picasa.google.com/support/bin… Mar 06 11:39
*schestowitz accumulates links for bn Mar 06 11:39
oiaohm Green999 offical released version no. Mar 06 11:39
oiaohm There is a beta if you know it. Mar 06 11:39
green999 Vector for introducing directx: http://picasa.google.com/support/bin/a… Mar 06 11:40
jose oiaohm, sorry if this is a dumb question (just got on) but what did you mean by “X11 was only designed for one application?” Mar 06 11:40
_Hicham_ oiaohm : why compiz is such a success in linux then? Mar 06 11:40
green999 AFAIK all systems except ms vista run opengl natively Mar 06 11:40
oiaohm You call compiz a success Mar 06 11:40
_Hicham_ yes Mar 06 11:40
green999 even a locked-in system like os x uses opengl natively, Mar 06 11:40
jose schestowitz, do you have a suggestion for me getting in touch with Red Hat legal? Mar 06 11:41
oiaohm On everything bar NVIDIA ie everything that follows X11 design.  It had a race condition. Mar 06 11:41
green999 os x has but doesn’t use x11 Mar 06 11:41
_Hicham_ you are probably talking about Xorg 1.6 Mar 06 11:41
jose i haven’t yet attempted to get emails and addresses. It might be no problem, but i thought i would ask here first since you have contacts Mar 06 11:41
oiaohm 1.6 fixes up one section of the problem _Hicham_ Mar 06 11:42
oiaohm After 1.6 multiable graphical frameworks are supported as well as more than 1 application. Mar 06 11:42
oiaohm Before that only 1 was techincally supported. Mar 06 11:42
oiaohm jose one opengl or equal application at a time. Mar 06 11:43
oiaohm PS os x is using wined3d Mar 06 11:44
oiaohm in picasa Mar 06 11:44
jose forgive me because i don’t stay up on this but which extension would we be talking about, oiaohm Mar 06 11:44
oiaohm So the opengl support is not special as such. Mar 06 11:44
jose so we are talking implementation and not protocol? Mar 06 11:45
oiaohm Both jose Mar 06 11:45
oiaohm DRI 1 implementation has very major limits.  DRI 2 fixes most of those limits. Mar 06 11:45
oiaohm compiz was operating by a hack on DRI1 so it failed badly from time to time. Mar 06 11:46
oiaohm race condition faults are some of the most random you can have. Mar 06 11:47
oiaohm It was annoying doing support in winehq telling people that compiz would fail them and they would say it has never faild me yet then have them come bad a few days latter with opengl not working Mar 06 11:48
oiaohm because compiz had failed and stuffed up opengl access. Mar 06 11:48
jose dri is part of an architecture (design), but that would be implementation unless the dri related protocols had this limitation. Mar 06 11:48
jose i’m just a bit curious. Mar 06 11:48
jose i’ll be gone soon, but might as well learn some details about dri if i can Mar 06 11:49
oiaohm dri had protocals for drivers to use. Mar 06 11:49
oiaohm Yep they were stuffed. Mar 06 11:49
jose let me ask this way, dri2 changes the interfaces in order to fix some problems or simply for more functionality etc? Mar 06 11:50
oiaohm Fix problems Mar 06 11:50
oiaohm Fix major problems that would cause X11 to fail completely. Mar 06 11:50
jose are docs for dri2 available (short of reading tons of emails or source code)? Mar 06 11:50
oiaohm Dri 2 was only created when dri1 was found to be impossable to repair because if its design. Mar 06 11:50
oiaohm I would have to dig back into x.org mailing list. Mar 06 11:51
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Mar 06 11:51
oiaohm Or into x.org documentation. Mar 06 11:51
oiaohm Neither is exaclty fun. Mar 06 11:51
jose is this relevant http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/ ? Mar 06 11:52
jose x.org documentation.. do you mean an extension? Mar 06 11:52
jose a formal extension doc? Mar 06 11:52
oiaohm DRI is the default driver design for xorg Mar 06 11:53
oiaohm Not the place were you want bad design. Mar 06 11:53
oiaohm It is covered in the main x.org docs it is nasty reading some of the ones about it in the faq are simpler reading. Mar 06 11:55
oiaohm Opps mailing list not faq. Mar 06 11:55
jose I’ve read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_R… and a write-up Keith and various other pages.. but it’s difficult to remember details if you haven’t worked on the code Mar 06 11:56
oiaohm X Developers’ Summit for 2007 work on DRI2 started. The new rendering infrastructure improves several shortcomings of the old design. Among its significant improvements: the lack of internal locks and proper support for offscreen rendering, so that compositing and XVideo/OpenGL applications are properly managed.  << that line Mar 06 11:57
oiaohm Call DRI 1 wild west of Driver design. Mar 06 11:58
oiaohm It was a lot of good luck that it even worked. Mar 06 11:58
oiaohm Lack of internal locks meant nothing stoped two applications from writing into the same data struct at the same time. Mar 06 11:59
oiaohm Generating nice random result. Mar 06 11:59
jose locks are most likely an implementation detail Mar 06 11:59
jose or internal api.. that sort of thing Mar 06 11:59
oiaohm Yes and no. Mar 06 12:00
jose but it could be exposed in a high level proto Mar 06 12:00
green999 trolls attacking OOo’s independence from MS:http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0… Mar 06 12:00
jose this is something dri2 would likely fix Mar 06 12:00
oiaohm It is really handy at high level to know at times if a lock is held. Mar 06 12:00
oiaohm So you can do something else instead. Mar 06 12:00
jose yes, at times, and especially for performance reasons Mar 06 12:01
jose as you said Mar 06 12:01
oiaohm Native support of off screen rendering withotu applications knowing. Mar 06 12:02
oiaohm Makes doing compiz 1000 times simpler. Mar 06 12:02
jose dri involves drivers and low level stuff.. at that level yes… but for applications.. maybe or not Mar 06 12:02
oiaohm No hooking of opengl and other things. Mar 06 12:02
oiaohm Ie dri2 exposes extra features so hacks are not required any more. Mar 06 12:02
jose do you know of design docs for compiz? Mar 06 12:03
jose where does it hook up to the system? Mar 06 12:03
oiaohm Compiz is being completely recoded for dri2 Mar 06 12:03
oiaohm It was hooking a stack of opengl functions. Mar 06 12:03
oiaohm To prevent them overwriting compiz memory. Mar 06 12:03
oiaohm in the video card. Mar 06 12:04
oiaohm Yes another problem with DRI 1 Mar 06 12:04
oiaohm No memory management in video card so you can overwrite another programs memory in there. Mar 06 12:04
oiaohm As I say that DRI 1 worked at all was more good luck. Mar 06 12:04
jose what do you mean by hooking (stack of) opengl ? Mar 06 12:05
oiaohm opengl functions jose Mar 06 12:05
jose “hooking”? Mar 06 12:06
oiaohm Intercepting jose Mar 06 12:06
jose and modifying so that different apps did not step on each other? Mar 06 12:06
oiaohm Ie instead of call going straight from application to opengl it would go to compiz first for corrections to prevent house of cards failing in. Mar 06 12:06
oiaohm Problem was when new opengl functions where released compiz would be out of sync so house of cards would come down. Mar 06 12:07
oiaohm WIne uses lots of only recently released opengl functions. Mar 06 12:07
oiaohm Basically only true cure was to fix the driver stack. Mar 06 12:08
oiaohm Its the same as was pulseaudio is doing to Linux audio now. Mar 06 12:09
oiaohm Instead of fixing the driver stack stick somethign else on top and hope it keeps on working. Mar 06 12:09
jose let me ask (I’m not sure about extension details): opengl calls (maybe they don’t all work the same) are sent to X? where would compiz intercept? Mar 06 12:09
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.17.92) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 12:09
jose oiaohm, i can ask questions as long as you are willing to answer.. i won’t get upset if you want to cool off.. but let me know. Mar 06 12:10
jose pulse audio is a solution where you add another interface on top? Mar 06 12:11
_Hicham_ pulse audio is a universal sound server Mar 06 12:11
_Hicham_ it aim to fill the gap between distro and desktop environments Mar 06 12:11
_Hicham_ it supports nearly all sound architectures Mar 06 12:12
jose _Hicham_ let me quote what oiaohm said before you got on Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ alsa Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ oss Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ arts Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ ok Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ go ahead Mar 06 12:12
jose <oiaohm> Basically only true cure was to fix the driver stack. Mar 06 12:12
jose <oiaohm> Its the same as was pulseaudio is doing to Linux audio now. Mar 06 12:12
jose <oiaohm> Instead of fixing the driver stack stick somethign else on top and hope it keeps on working. Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ ? Mar 06 12:12
_Hicham_ it has nothing to do with driver stach Mar 06 12:13
jose the driver stack conversation is about dri1 vs dri1 Mar 06 12:13
_Hicham_ stack Mar 06 12:13
jose dri2 Mar 06 12:13
jose he (?) then threw in the analogy to pulse audio Mar 06 12:13
_Hicham_ pulse audio is an abstraction of sound architectures Mar 06 12:14
jose i think the idea is that pulse audio would leverage something else underneath rather than implement something new Mar 06 12:14
_Hicham_ Linux needs that Mar 06 12:14
jose right Mar 06 12:14
_Hicham_ yes Mar 06 12:14
jose i’m following then.. just wasnt’ sure Mar 06 12:14
_Hicham_ that is the purpose Mar 06 12:14
_Hicham_ what is beneath is fixed at the kernel level Mar 06 12:14
jose yes Mar 06 12:14
jose you can do both.. fix and redesign below.. to an extent Mar 06 12:15
_Hicham_ one thing : you can’t fix everything but creating new architecture Mar 06 12:15
jose right Mar 06 12:15
_Hicham_ coz there is a major issue : compatibility Mar 06 12:15
jose “you can’t fix everything but creating new architecture” Mar 06 12:16
_Hicham_ you have to take into account the various apps that rely on some specific architecture Mar 06 12:16
jose you meant to say “by creating” right? Mar 06 12:16
_Hicham_ yes Mar 06 12:16
oiaohm Abstraction always introduces a sync problem. Mar 06 12:16
_Hicham_ it was just a typing mistake Mar 06 12:16
oiaohm Alsa adds a new feature. Mar 06 12:16
oiaohm Pulse audio does it wrong darm alsa application breaking all over the place. Mar 06 12:16
_Hicham_ what do alsa introduce? Mar 06 12:16
_Hicham_ which alsa application is that? Mar 06 12:17
oiaohm From time time alsa does add new functions. Mar 06 12:17
oiaohm For realtime and other features. Mar 06 12:17
jose you can’t always map cleanly Mar 06 12:17
_Hicham_ PulseAudio will get notified Mar 06 12:17
jose look at different sorts of threading semantics for example Mar 06 12:17
oiaohm Coded in two places instead of 1. Mar 06 12:17
oiaohm Always risks sync errors. Mar 06 12:17
_Hicham_ there is always a risk of sync error Mar 06 12:18
oiaohm Inside 1 development tree it simpler. Mar 06 12:18
_Hicham_ but that is the price to pay for compatibility Mar 06 12:18
_Hicham_ here we go again Mar 06 12:18
_Hicham_ you are against linux spirit Mar 06 12:18
_Hicham_ you can restrict devs Mar 06 12:19
oiaohm Linux kernel has branches centrally managed. Mar 06 12:19
_Hicham_ instead, you can coordinate between them Mar 06 12:19
_Hicham_ as freedesktop.org do Mar 06 12:19
oiaohm Yes pulseaudio independant tree. Mar 06 12:19
oiaohm To alsa Mar 06 12:19
_Hicham_ yes it is Mar 06 12:19
oiaohm Really there needs to be a tree for audio with everything in it. Mar 06 12:20
schestowitz jose: mail me, I’ll give you E-mails Mar 06 12:20
jose thanx schestowitz Mar 06 12:20
_Hicham_ not necessarily Mar 06 12:20
oiaohm So sync errors are less likely. Mar 06 12:20
jose i’ll do later Mar 06 12:20
oiaohm _Hicham_: history of Linux kernel tells you that independant trees just bring trouble. Mar 06 12:20
_Hicham_ so u propose that all sound apps must move to alsa? Mar 06 12:21
_Hicham_ linux kernel is another story Mar 06 12:21
oiaohm Not the sound apps the thing that predend to be drivers. Mar 06 12:21
oiaohm Ie all the sound servers and driver structs. Mar 06 12:21
_Hicham_ drivers are independant Mar 06 12:21
jose foss apps can be patched by anyone so as to leverage a better incompat arch.. but if this is not done, you can still include multiple interfaces/libraries at once.. eg that some things like sound perhaps may not work unless coordinated Mar 06 12:21
oiaohm pulseaudio pretends to be an Alsa driver to applications. Mar 06 12:21
_Hicham_ drivers are independants from sounds servers Mar 06 12:21
_Hicham_ pulseaudio is not a driver Mar 06 12:22
oiaohm once you start pretending to be a driver you are one. Mar 06 12:22
_Hicham_ it intercepts the streams Mar 06 12:22
oiaohm You have to provide the same interfaces or things will break. Mar 06 12:22
_Hicham_ and direct them accordingly Mar 06 12:22
_Hicham_ sounds interface at the low level is the same Mar 06 12:23
_Hicham_ but you don’t work with that is sound apps Mar 06 12:23
_Hicham_ in sound app Mar 06 12:23
_Hicham_ in sound apps, you generally work with an abstraction layer Mar 06 12:23
_Hicham_ like alsa Mar 06 12:23
_Hicham_ arts Mar 06 12:24
_Hicham_ esd Mar 06 12:24
_Hicham_ oss Mar 06 12:24
oiaohm Issue is pulseaudio sound interfaces provided as alsa Mar 06 12:24
oiaohm arts is dead Mar 06 12:24
oiaohm It is offically marked for end of life. Mar 06 12:24
_Hicham_ sound interfaces are not marked as alsa Mar 06 12:24
_Hicham_ ALSA exists as a plugin for PulseAudio Mar 06 12:24
_Hicham_ that is very different Mar 06 12:25
oiaohm And it don’t work. Mar 06 12:25
_Hicham_ it does for me Mar 06 12:25
oiaohm ALSA and OSS have bridges between them. Mar 06 12:25
oiaohm That have been kept in sync. Mar 06 12:25
_Hicham_ ye Mar 06 12:25
_Hicham_ they have both plugins in PA Mar 06 12:25
oiaohm PA’s don’t work correctly. Mar 06 12:26
_Hicham_ wow Mar 06 12:26
_Hicham_ just tell which distro do u use? Mar 06 12:26
_Hicham_ PulseAudio is shipped with Ubuntu and Fedora Mar 06 12:26
oiaohm Own. Mar 06 12:26
_Hicham_ and is known to work very well on these Mar 06 12:26
_Hicham_ currently im running ubuntu Mar 06 12:26
oiaohm There are sets of applications where it don’t work well _Hicham_ Mar 06 12:26
_Hicham_ and it works flawlessly Mar 06 12:27
_Hicham_ give me an example Mar 06 12:27
_Hicham_ and I will try Mar 06 12:27
_Hicham_ give an example of an app that dont work in PA Mar 06 12:27
oiaohm Do you know what PA answer to applications that don’t work correctly as been. Mar 06 12:27
_Hicham_ silence again Mar 06 12:27
oiaohm Ask that project to make a PA driver. Mar 06 12:28
oiaohm Then they don’t have to fix the issue. Mar 06 12:28
schestowitz green999: ZDNET freaks: “Sun disputes claims OpenOffice is a fading project “ Mar 06 12:28
schestowitz the headline suggests (again) that OOo is dying or something Mar 06 12:28
oiaohm To be correct they are listed on the PA site if you know where to look _Hicham_ Mar 06 12:28
schestowitz They spread doubt like this on a regular basis Mar 06 12:28
schestowitz Something about “dead horse” too Mar 06 12:28
oiaohm Currently I am stuck on dial up speed. Mar 06 12:28
_Hicham_ oiaohm : I didn’t see but It’s possible Mar 06 12:28
_Hicham_ if they don’t rely on an abstration layer Mar 06 12:29
_Hicham_ at all Mar 06 12:29
_Hicham_ Roy : ZDNet is a M$ puppy Mar 06 12:29
oiaohm http://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/PerfectSetup  << Start reading Mar 06 12:30
_Hicham_ OpenOffice is going far beyond the Expectations Mar 06 12:30
oiaohm Disobey them as see how long pulseaudio lasts _Hicham_ Mar 06 12:30
_Hicham_ oiaohm : i will read that Mar 06 12:30
_Hicham_ Roy : why OOo would die? Mar 06 12:30
_Hicham_ it is well sponsored Mar 06 12:30
_Hicham_ by Sun itself Mar 06 12:30
_Hicham_ and SPI Mar 06 12:31
_Hicham_ why would it die? Mar 06 12:31
oiaohm Novell wants it dead Mar 06 12:31
oiaohm So Go-oo can take over. Mar 06 12:31
jose is part of pulse audio a reimplementation of the various sound interfaces? Mar 06 12:32
jose that would make sense Mar 06 12:32
oiaohm If pulseaudio alsa and oss interfaces worked there should be zero need to redirect pulseaudio. Mar 06 12:32
_Hicham_ I think that the problem is that how to create an abstraction layer above all the sound architectures Mar 06 12:34
_Hicham_ it is not an easy task Mar 06 12:34
oiaohm Really there only needs to be 2 Mar 06 12:34
oiaohm at max 3 Mar 06 12:34
oiaohm because that is how many kernel level interfaces there are. Mar 06 12:35
oiaohm Some how I don’t think pulseaudio blocks fireware interfaced sound. Mar 06 12:35
oiaohm fireware/firewire Mar 06 12:36
oiaohm pulseaudio follows in the long history of don’t fix lower down stick something on top. Mar 06 12:37
oiaohm X11 toolkits started that off. Mar 06 12:37
jose http://rudd-o.com/en/linux-and-free-… Mar 06 12:37
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MinceR sounds like what someone who doesn’t understand X would say :> Mar 06 12:38
oiaohm Might sound that way at first MinceR Mar 06 12:38
oiaohm Ok xlib old version not multithread Mar 06 12:38
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oiaohm So toolkits wrap hacks on top to support multithread Mar 06 12:38
schestowitz _Hicham_: yes, ZDNet is a puppet Mar 06 12:38
jose oiaohm, i think x extensions can bypass all the older stuff as much as they want for the most part.. it’s a new interface Mar 06 12:38
oiaohm So you end up with slower code. Mar 06 12:39
schestowitz I wrote about this a lot, with proof Mar 06 12:39
MinceR ic Mar 06 12:39
schestowitz I could repeat :-) Mar 06 12:39
schestowitz ZDNet is to tech what Fox News is to politics Mar 06 12:39
oiaohm Then one day someday someone wake up and says lets fix this and creates xcb that is multithreaded. Mar 06 12:39
oiaohm then shock horrer the core of the X11 server is single threaded. Mar 06 12:39
oiaohm no one had found out because xlib was single threaded and toolkits where hiding it. Mar 06 12:40
oiaohm Yes that is X11 history for you. Mar 06 12:40
jose oiaohm, for threadedness are we talking implementation detail? Mar 06 12:40
oiaohm X11 is old Mar 06 12:40
oiaohm So it was using internal round robing threading. Mar 06 12:40
_Hicham_ there is a proposition for a reimplementation of Xlib Mar 06 12:41
oiaohm Yep only ever using a max of 1 kernel thead even if there was more. Mar 06 12:41
_Hicham_ have you heard of that Mar 06 12:41
oiaohm Xlib has been reimplemented since then. Mar 06 12:41
oiaohm It called xcb Mar 06 12:41
_Hicham_ yes, i heard about that Mar 06 12:41
oiaohm Yes I know X11 extreamally well and painfully well. Mar 06 12:41
oiaohm History of stupidity in it is classic. Mar 06 12:42
_Hicham_ did you participate to XCB? Mar 06 12:42
oiaohm Take a great design and do everything to stuff it up. Mar 06 12:42
oiaohm Some testing of xcb _Hicham_ Mar 06 12:42
_Hicham_ and how does it perform? Mar 06 12:43
oiaohm xlib these days is a emultation on top of xcb Mar 06 12:43
oiaohm There is no xlib really left Mar 06 12:43
MinceR doesn’t sound all that stupid now :> Mar 06 12:43
_Hicham_ so you see, the major problem is compatibility Mar 06 12:43
oiaohm xcb is more raw protocal. Mar 06 12:43
oiaohm xlib cut of a lot of raw protocal access. Mar 06 12:44
oiaohm So applications have less crud with xcb between them and the X11 server. Mar 06 12:44
oiaohm Than with xlib. Mar 06 12:44
jose it seems to me you now have xlib interface and xcb interface Mar 06 12:45
oiaohm Yep. Mar 06 12:45
oiaohm so you have backwards compadiblity. Mar 06 12:45
jose ie, an extension though perhaps not an official “x extension” Mar 06 12:45
oiaohm Nothing about the x11 protocal says you have to use xlib Mar 06 12:45
jose yeah, but if xlib is worse, then it deserves worse performance Mar 06 12:45
oiaohm It never did. Mar 06 12:46
jose i did think xlib was very close to the protocol by definition Mar 06 12:46
MinceR do toolkits use xcb already? Mar 06 12:46
oiaohm Some do. Mar 06 12:46
jose i don’t do much x programming, btw Mar 06 12:46
oiaohm Lot still use xlib Mar 06 12:46
oiaohm It takes a long time to change a code base. Mar 06 12:46
MinceR do gtk and qt do? Mar 06 12:46
oiaohm gtk still xlib qt xcb in places. Mar 06 12:47
jose qt just got a speed upgrade.. they likely reworked a number of things at the lower level interfaces i would guess Mar 06 12:47
oiaohm Yep right on the money jose Mar 06 12:47
oiaohm Pulseaudio breaks the basic rule of fast applications. Mar 06 12:48
oiaohm You want the least ammout of code between you and the output. Mar 06 12:48
oiaohm GEM will even allow applications to bypass X11 completely and still render in a X11 window. Mar 06 12:48
oiaohm Graphical stack is on the right path. Mar 06 12:49
oiaohm 1 central interface management is required for audio.  Going out side kernel provided is not going to ensure that. Mar 06 12:50
MinceR we have alsa for that Mar 06 12:50
MinceR but how would you implement network transparent audio? Mar 06 12:51
jose MinceR, have an init call Mar 06 12:51
jose here you switch to native alsa or pulse audio masquerading as alsa Mar 06 12:52
jose right? Mar 06 12:52
MinceR rught Mar 06 12:52
MinceR s/u/i/ Mar 06 12:52
jose assuming alsa is good enough for all local purposes Mar 06 12:52
jose if not then we need to fix alsa Mar 06 12:52
MinceR well, i could choose the alsa device as needed Mar 06 12:52
oiaohm Alsa devices are not restricted on what they can be interfacing with. Mar 06 12:52
jose i’m not an alsa expert by any means, btw Mar 06 12:53
jose so i may get lost here and there in the conversation Mar 06 12:53
oiaohm Also pulseaudio is going to become more of a pain as container tech gets more broader used. Mar 06 12:54
oiaohm How is pulsaudio sitting on pulseaudio then sitting on pulseaudio again going to perform. Mar 06 12:54
jose vms and such? “container tech” Mar 06 12:54
oiaohm cgroups in Linux. Mar 06 12:54
oiaohm Or zones in solarias. Mar 06 12:55
_Hicham_ oiaohm : that is not the final solution Mar 06 12:55
oiaohm That is the problem _Hicham_ Mar 06 12:55
_Hicham_ PA provides a migration ABI through its plugin Mar 06 12:55
_Hicham_ all applications are moving to it Mar 06 12:55
_Hicham_ the final goal is that all applications provide interfaces for it Mar 06 12:55
oiaohm Not going to happen. Mar 06 12:56
_Hicham_ since it is the product of a long collaboration Mar 06 12:56
oiaohm Wine project has flatly refused to include a pulseaudio driver. Mar 06 12:56
_Hicham_ oiaohm : why not? Mar 06 12:56
oiaohm It has a alsa driver and a oss driver that are both in kernel. Mar 06 12:56
oiaohm They are are a big enough problem to maintain. Mar 06 12:57
oiaohm Sorry Wine is not alone there. Mar 06 12:57
_Hicham_ maybe because of lack of resources Mar 06 12:57
_Hicham_ whose else? Mar 06 12:57
oiaohm Its because you can disable pulse audio Mar 06 12:57
oiaohm You still need the other interfaces. Mar 06 12:57
oiaohm Pulseaudio is simplely extra work that can be better spent else where. Mar 06 12:57
oiaohm Also Pulseaudio is not a suitable long term solution. Mar 06 12:58
oiaohm cgroup tech will come to Linux. Mar 06 12:58
oiaohm There is no reason why audio interface providing the same per application volume could not be done threw it. Mar 06 12:58
_Hicham_ what is the solution then oiaohm? Mar 06 12:58
oiaohm Information in a cgroup travels with the process it self. Mar 06 12:59
oiaohm Rememember cgroup also provide application suspend to disk. Mar 06 12:59
oiaohm With pulseaudio you can guess what kinds of fun that causes. Mar 06 13:00
oiaohm Basically its future tech incompadible. Mar 06 13:00
jose http://www.mjmwired.net/ke… Mar 06 13:00
MinceR the wine project refusing to do it doesn’t mean it won’t happen Mar 06 13:00
oiaohm It wont happen MinceR Mar 06 13:01
oiaohm Its final. Mar 06 13:01
MinceR ever heard of forks and distro patches? :> Mar 06 13:01
oiaohm Wine releases every 2 weeks Mar 06 13:01
oiaohm You try keeping a patch in sync with that. Mar 06 13:01
oiaohm Heck most distrobutions cannot keep up building wine let alone custom patching it. Mar 06 13:02
MinceR the audio-related code doesn’t necessarily change Mar 06 13:02
MinceR also, distros don’t offer every release Mar 06 13:02
oiaohm Every distribution who has done custom patches has given up on it with wine. Mar 06 13:02
MinceR they usually take one, test it and take it to stable, then provide only minor updates Mar 06 13:03
oiaohm Its so simple to stuff it up completely. Mar 06 13:03
MinceR doesn’t mean they won’t try. Mar 06 13:03
oiaohm Wine stable is basically a paper weight for application support. Mar 06 13:03
oiaohm Wine development great support alterations all the time. Mar 06 13:03
MinceR i mean distro stable, not wine :> Mar 06 13:03
jose the community will grow in size over time.. fwiw Mar 06 13:03
MinceR i’ve seen “stable” packages made from a particular daily snapshot :> Mar 06 13:04
oiaohm Remember wine is trademarked Mar 06 13:04
oiaohm So yep you will not be able to call it wine either. Mar 06 13:04
MinceR so it won’t be wine? Mar 06 13:04
oiaohm It is not happening in wine ever. Mar 06 13:05
_Hicham_ wine is offered pre packaged for most distro Mar 06 13:05
oiaohm If you brance wine off you will have to support it yourself. Mar 06 13:05
oiaohm branch wine off you will have to support it yourself. Mar 06 13:05
oiaohm Not something you want to be left with. Mar 06 13:05
oiaohm Pulseaudio need to work out how they are going to support cgroups. Mar 06 13:06
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MinceR which might simply mean reapplying a patch until it breaks, and then forward porting it. :> Mar 06 13:06
oiaohm You know the problem with that. Mar 06 13:07
oiaohm Wine is a extreamally complex program. Mar 06 13:07
oiaohm a patch may apply and take about 5 days before you find out you have stuffed it. Mar 06 13:07
_Hicham_ very very very very complex in fact Mar 06 13:07
oiaohm By then you have already released it to your users. Mar 06 13:08
oiaohm Its also the reason why wine does not want any unrequired parts. Mar 06 13:08
_Hicham_ no disto bothers with wine as it is prepackaged Mar 06 13:08
oiaohm Its insanely complex to start off with. Mar 06 13:08
oiaohm Pulseaudio really need to work out how they are going to support the features cgroup is providing. Mar 06 13:09
oiaohm Currently Pulseaudio is forcing it and all applications using it to be suspended at once. Mar 06 13:09
oiaohm Until thing Pulseaudio is nothing more than a short term thing that will have to be replaced in time. Mar 06 13:10
jose let me ask, cgroup info can be discovered at the time a process uses (pulse)audio, yes? Mar 06 13:11
oiaohm cgroup is a kernel level feature. Mar 06 13:11
jose is there a specific problem with cgroup pulseaudio (an example)? Mar 06 13:12
oiaohm When it suspends to disk problem here is that pulseaudio will not find out what exacly happend to the application. Mar 06 13:12
oiaohm So only way you can prevent application and pulseaudio from being in different state is to suspend both with each other. Mar 06 13:12
oiaohm Because pulseaudio is not kernel and is not cgroup aware enough. Mar 06 13:13
jose but making it aware Mar 06 13:13
jose presents what problem? Mar 06 13:13
oiaohm Yep  most likely equals recoding it. Mar 06 13:13
oiaohm And adding kernel features to support it. Mar 06 13:13
oiaohm GEM for the graphical stack is such a example. Mar 06 13:14
jose but interfaces is what counts.. what would be the issue here Mar 06 13:14
oiaohm Everything that is needed at the restore point the cgroup suppend better save. Mar 06 13:14
oiaohm That is kinda not possiable if its not tracked for cgroup. Mar 06 13:15
oiaohm GEM provides a way to do it for graphical memory blocks.   X11 protocal has a resend command for basic 2d graphics.  So graphics can work with cgroup. Mar 06 13:16
jose is anything more needed besides simply knowing the suspend flag (timestamp?) Mar 06 13:16
oiaohm Notice something here pulseaudio does not allow it half done state to be saved or for cgroup to know that it need to leave it longer. Mar 06 13:16
oiaohm Volume information for application is stored in Pulseaudio. Mar 06 13:17
oiaohm So cgroup restored application will restore at wrong volume. Mar 06 13:17
oiaohm The list of problems go on and on. Mar 06 13:17
jose but can a flag lead to pulseaudio setting its proper state? Mar 06 13:18
oiaohm There need to be a audio cgroup really to store some of th information Mar 06 13:18
oiaohm the Mar 06 13:18
jose audio cgroup Mar 06 13:18
jose ok Mar 06 13:18
jose but isn’t that necessary Mar 06 13:18
oiaohm Ie kernel mode alteration. Mar 06 13:18
MinceR i think alsa should do per-application volume control for local apps Mar 06 13:18
jose no matter what audio arch you use Mar 06 13:18
MinceR perhaps in dmix Mar 06 13:19
oiaohm By putting it in a audio cgroup the information can be connected to the process of the application it self. Mar 06 13:19
oiaohm Instead of hidden in a sound server. Mar 06 13:20
oiaohm Also allows differnet sound servers to use the same data. Mar 06 13:20
jose the libraries are part of the process right (they get an image right)? Mar 06 13:20
oiaohm Memory management is also part of it. Mar 06 13:20
oiaohm Current pulse audio application dies. Mar 06 13:20
oiaohm How does pulse find out. How does kernel make sure nothing of an application is left in memory. Mar 06 13:21
oiaohm There does need to be a memory manager for audio as well. Mar 06 13:21
oiaohm Linked to the applications process. Mar 06 13:21
oiaohm Setting up cgroups means everything need to be trackable. Mar 06 13:22
oiaohm No more that might have come from X application. Mar 06 13:22
oiaohm Basically there is a lot of work to make pulseaudio shipshape for the future. Mar 06 13:23
oiaohm It might be just simpler to fix ALSA up to do pulseaudio features and forget that pulseaudio ever existed. Mar 06 13:23
jose let me ask as i can’t follow the details here… Mar 06 13:24
jose what would be difference in disk suspend with or without cgroups (for pulseaudio) Mar 06 13:24
jose ? Mar 06 13:25
oiaohm cgroups allows per application suspend to disk. Mar 06 13:25
jose ok .let me think Mar 06 13:25
oiaohm Also cgroups these days do the system wide suspend to disk too. Mar 06 13:26
jose fine.. now wouldn’t the suspend effect give the app time to prepare? Mar 06 13:26
jose the preparation can alert the daemon Mar 06 13:26
oiaohm cgroup is only checking kernel level data. Mar 06 13:26
jose ditto when you come back online Mar 06 13:26
oiaohm Application does not know it has been suspended. Mar 06 13:26
oiaohm Only on restore could you do something. Mar 06 13:27
oiaohm You have a real data location problem. Mar 06 13:27
jose but the suspending of the processes.. shouldn’t these be notified somehow or some queryable flag set (that pulse audio could keep track of or hook into)? Mar 06 13:27
oiaohm There is no flag for good reasons. Mar 06 13:27
MinceR hm, what if apps connected to the sound server over sockets? Mar 06 13:27
jose MinceR, I don’t follow.. how does cgroups relate to the socket question? Mar 06 13:29
jose [I have to ask questions to keep up, sorry.] Mar 06 13:29
MinceR afaik the discussion is about how we keep track of audio clients Mar 06 13:29
oiaohm Application connected via socket will be suspended along with target application if cgroup cannot id split.  Zoned off cgroup you would not be able to talk to another application outside it with a socket anyhow. Mar 06 13:29
jose [even if they might be dumb in some cases] Mar 06 13:29
MinceR how common is it to zone off typical audio apps? Mar 06 13:29
oiaohm Remember cgroups allow running multiable incompadible distributions side by side. Mar 06 13:30
oiaohm On the same kernel. Mar 06 13:30
MinceR i don’t know a lot about cgroups Mar 06 13:30
oiaohm There is one mother of a headache. Mar 06 13:30
MinceR i took a look at that txt file Mar 06 13:30
MinceR (didn’t read much of it) Mar 06 13:30
oiaohm Ever used openvz MinceR Mar 06 13:31
MinceR nope Mar 06 13:31
MinceR only vmware, virtualbox and KVM Mar 06 13:31
MinceR (i prefer KVM) Mar 06 13:31
oiaohm Ok KVM without needing extra copy of kernel MinceR Mar 06 13:31
oiaohm To run another distribution. Mar 06 13:31
MinceR ic Mar 06 13:32
MinceR so it’s like UML? Mar 06 13:32
oiaohm Not really. Mar 06 13:32
oiaohm 1 Linux kernel. Mar 06 13:32
oiaohm Multibale process tables Mar 06 13:32
oiaohm Memory management keeping everything apart that should be appart. Mar 06 13:32
oiaohm Even some disk level management. Mar 06 13:33
jose oiaohm, do you mean “multiple” when you say multibale and multiable? Mar 06 13:33
oiaohm Yep oiaohm Mar 06 13:33
oiaohm darm Mar 06 13:33
jose i could not figure that out Mar 06 13:33
jose you meant jose, right? Mar 06 13:33
oiaohm I am having dyslexia on a few words at moment. Mar 06 13:33
jose :-) Mar 06 13:33
jose it doesn’t bother me, but i want to try and keep up so i have to get inside your head Mar 06 13:34
MinceR :) Mar 06 13:34
jose :-) Mar 06 13:34
oiaohm cgroups add a complete new level of complexity. Mar 06 13:35
MinceR what’s the difference between UML, vserver and openvz? Mar 06 13:35
oiaohm vserver and openvz tech are both being merged to form cgroup. Mar 06 13:35
MinceR oh. Mar 06 13:35
oiaohm UML is a lInux kernel running inside Linux. Mar 06 13:35
oiaohm Solarias Zones take it to a completely different level. Mar 06 13:36
oiaohm Inside a Solarias Zone it can be a completely different OS emulated by the kernel. Mar 06 13:36
oiaohm The levels of trouble you are talking about long term with cgroup for pulseaudio if it don’t support it will be kinda insane. Mar 06 13:37
oiaohm Really how much of pulseaudio information about applications volume controls and the like could not be attached to the application process data. Mar 06 13:38
oiaohm It solve the problem why the pulseaudio developer said dmix could never do it. Mar 06 13:38
oiaohm Pulseaudio has basically been developed in the wrong level with the wrong tech. Mar 06 13:39
jose let me ask this because it’s not clear to me.. what is wrong with an app stopping contact with pulse audio server for T time and then continuing? (suspend to disk) Mar 06 13:43
jose — oiaohm Mar 06 13:44
oiaohm If its like halfway threw sending a audio block to pulse audio. Mar 06 13:44
oiaohm You could get a really nasty noise on the other end. Mar 06 13:44
jose ok Mar 06 13:44
oiaohm Lets just say it better if we avoid that event. Mar 06 13:44
oiaohm Also volume control information for the application. Mar 06 13:46
jose you’d want the full transmission unit to take place plus a cue that suspend is happening Mar 06 13:46
jose why isn’t this up to the kernel to manage Mar 06 13:46
oiaohm that is stored inside the pulseaudio Mar 06 13:46
jose if you add support to the kernel, then pulseaudio could later tap into it Mar 06 13:46
oiaohm So restored applicaiton could come back with either no volume or full voulume. Mar 06 13:46
oiaohm exactly jose Mar 06 13:46
oiaohm Pulseaudio need to add some kernel support to work long term. Mar 06 13:47
oiaohm But them you kill the major problem the developer said Pulseaudio had to exist. Mar 06 13:47
oiaohm Dmix could not know the application volume of a process. Mar 06 13:47
oiaohm That disappears completely does it not with kernel storage. Mar 06 13:48
jose but you care when you come back.. isn’t the data brought back? Mar 06 13:48
oiaohm Other evil of cgroups you many not be restoring on the same machine you supended on. Mar 06 13:48
oiaohm So yes you cannot depend on anything not traveling with the application knowning anything. Mar 06 13:49
jose it still seems like something for the low level people to work out first and then pulseaudio could add support Mar 06 13:49
oiaohm first a protocal/standard of what they want has to be designed. Mar 06 13:50
jose you are right that if we want smooth audio, the kernel will have to have special support for that case Mar 06 13:50
oiaohm Kernel mode developers could add a struct but if not all the needed information is store its worthless. Mar 06 13:50
jose adding something new like cgroups seems will require coordination among various kernel level items.. like alsa or whatever Mar 06 13:50
oiaohm Basicaly the audio guys need to put there head together. Mar 06 13:51
jose i still imagine that pulseaudio would be fixable.. (from what i can tell in this high level discussion) Mar 06 13:51
oiaohm Memory management of audio streams in a cgroup trackable way. Mar 06 13:51
jose cgroup is quite new right.. so you are right about the audio coordination still needed perhaps Mar 06 13:52
oiaohm Would add some nice headaches. Mar 06 13:52
oiaohm cgroup new by kernel standard basics have been in there for over 9 months. Mar 06 13:53
jose i think i noticed that fedora 11 will include that (i think that is where i saw a reference to cgroup) Mar 06 13:53
oiaohm cgroup developers are not working on the audio section because they don’t have agreement between the audio framework. Mar 06 13:53
oiaohm cgroups developers are also waiting on DRI2 particular GEM. Mar 06 13:54
oiaohm To make X11 work well. Mar 06 13:54
jose the scenario mentioned .. of having a buffer that gets emptied automatically by the kernel as the app goes to sleep would be required in most cases for sound asthetics Mar 06 13:54
jose also, you want a flag of some sort. but that can just tag on to the sound data being sent off Mar 06 13:54
jose i looked up gem and got this: http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/… Mar 06 13:55
jose http://sourceforge.net/projects/pd-gem/ Mar 06 13:56
oiaohm Only intel drivers support it at this time jose Mar 06 13:56
oiaohm pd-gem is a differnet thing Mar 06 13:57
jose oh Mar 06 13:57
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki… Mar 06 13:58
oiaohm Its basically a memory manager tracking graphical resoruces. Mar 06 13:58
oiaohm Applications windows and so on can be connected to the application and suspend because of it. Mar 06 13:59
oiaohm There is a equal framework for network stuff. Mar 06 13:59
oiaohm There is nothing for audio that provides a tracking framework like that. Mar 06 14:00
oiaohm In Linux Mar 06 14:00
oiaohm Windows Vista and up does have a tracking framework. Mar 06 14:00
oiaohm Its really stupid if for some reason something has laged you have killed the application and a bell from an application still plays. Mar 06 14:01
oiaohm Yes pulseaudio can do that. Mar 06 14:01
jose supposedly gem got introduced in this email thread: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?… Mar 06 14:02
oiaohm Yep Mar 06 14:03
oiaohm Issue now is driver support jose Mar 06 14:03
oiaohm There is lag between new framework and enough drivers so its useful. Mar 06 14:03
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schestowitz Wiki just restored: http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/in… Mar 06 14:13
schestowitz The host didn’t even tell me why it went corrupt (the DB) Mar 06 14:13
schestowitz http://www.microturfs.org/ Mar 06 14:15
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schestowitz Further exposition of Richard Steel/Newham and the presidency of the Czech Republic (funded by Microsoft): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/0… Mar 06 14:33
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_Hicham_ Roy, M$ and Novell are probably targetting the website Mar 06 14:53
schestowitz Which one? Mar 06 15:02
_Hicham_ boycottnovell.com Mar 06 15:03
schestowitz Yes, they leave comments there. Mar 06 15:03
_Hicham_ Miguel de Icaza must be very angry Mar 06 15:07
_Hicham_ I dont understand this man Mar 06 15:07
_Hicham_ he was one the great gnome founders Mar 06 15:07
_Hicham_ then he went to Microsoft for some pennies? Mar 06 15:08
_Hicham_ tainting the whole linux community Mar 06 15:08
_Hicham_ as the famous the saying is telling : In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates? Mar 06 15:09
_Hicham_ who needs M$ in Linux? Mar 06 15:09
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schestowitz _Hicham_: Miguel has been with Microsoft since the beginning Mar 06 15:14
schestowitz It’s not as though he ‘turned’ to them. Mar 06 15:14
schestowitz He started with Linux after he had attempted (without success) to get a job at Microsoft Mar 06 15:15
_Hicham_ very deceiving Mar 06 15:16
_Hicham_ I don’t know why gnome project still uses Novell Apps Mar 06 15:17
_Hicham_ remarkably, evolution Mar 06 15:17
_Hicham_ anything from Novell is a risk Mar 06 15:18
_Hicham_ what if they port evolution to Mono? Mar 06 15:18
_Hicham_ should gnome incorporate mono by default? Mar 06 15:18
MinceR then they should keep to the last non-mono version Mar 06 15:19
MinceR and gnome shouldn’t incorporate mono Mar 06 15:19
_Hicham_ it is a very embarrassing issue Mar 06 15:19
MinceR also, its hig should be rewritten without the apple crap Mar 06 15:19
_Hicham_ how can u tell? Mar 06 15:19
_Hicham_ the evil must be removed from the roots Mar 06 15:20
MinceR it’s easy to tell whether it uses mono or not Mar 06 15:20
_Hicham_ I am not talking about that Mar 06 15:20
MinceR try running it on a system without mono; inspect the source code Mar 06 15:20
_Hicham_ i am talking about the fact that gnome will incorporate it as an essential package always, but with mono Mar 06 15:21
_Hicham_ that would a real pb Mar 06 15:21
_Hicham_ who is the real sponsor of mono? Mar 06 15:21
_Hicham_ of gnome i mean Mar 06 15:21
_Hicham_ sorry Mar 06 15:21
_Hicham_ isnt it RedHat? Mar 06 15:21
_Hicham_ what I know is that RedHat is the official hoster of Gnome Mar 06 15:21
*mib_0w8gi6 (i=44e625da@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-09beec59b2484a47) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 15:22
*mib_0w8gi6 has quit (Client Quit) Mar 06 15:22
*paramahamsa (n=phamsa@59.92.60.31) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 15:40
schestowitz Hi, paramahamsa Mar 06 15:44
schestowitz _Hicham_: GNOME has many sponsors Mar 06 15:45
paramahamsa schestowitz: hi. Mar 06 15:51
paramahamsa I don’t quite understand. Why is Novell bad? Mar 06 15:51
schestowitz It helps Microsoft harm Free software. Mar 06 15:55
schestowitz For Novell’s benefit, which isn’t. Mar 06 15:55
paramahamsa How? Is there a page documenting the details? Mar 06 15:56
_Hicham_ Roy : Gnome hoster is RedHat, no? Mar 06 16:01
schestowitz paramahamsa: http://boycottnovell.com/faq Mar 06 16:05
schestowitz http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-276211.html “Make no mistake, this is intended to force Tom Tom to violate the GPL, or change to Microsoft embedded software.” Mar 06 16:08
schestowitz _Hicham_: technically, yes, I guess. Mar 06 16:08
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 16:11
paramahamsa Wow. I didn’t even know all this was happening. Have to look it up. What are people doing about it? Mar 06 16:11
schestowitz Stating the obvious here: Mar 06 16:12
schestowitz Bad Economy = Easier Military Recruiting < Mar 06 16:12
schestowitz http://www.prwatch.org/node/8257 > Mar 06 16:12
schestowitz OT BTW Mar 06 16:12
schestowitz paramahamsa: What people should do is pressure Novell.. and pressure others not to be infected by Novell’s poison (Moonlight. Mono/.NET, etc). Mar 06 16:13
schestowitz All that corruption could lead to another war. :-( Mar 06 16:14
paramahamsa What exactly is Novell trying to do? Get money? Mar 06 16:14
schestowitz Join forces with Microsoft Mar 06 16:15
schestowitz Microsoft pays them for it Mar 06 16:15
schestowitz Sweden’s EU presidency logo sets sights on climate  < http://www.euractiv.com/en/opinion/sweden-e… > Mar 06 16:18
schestowitz Global Warming May Get Its Very Own Top Level Domain < http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/04/global-… > Mar 06 16:18
paramahamsa Do you have any active groups that actually meet and discuss things? like LUGS? Mar 06 16:19
schestowitz Which things specifically? Mar 06 16:20
*schestowitz sees China’s already rising to superpower status… China says worried about arrest warrant on Sudan’s Bashir < http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt… > Mar 06 16:21
paramahamsa Anything interesting. Novell, Global Warming. I’m passionate about both. Mar 06 16:21
_Hicham_ Roy’s group is the most active one Mar 06 16:25
_Hicham_ you can’t find such a group on the net :-D Mar 06 16:25
schestowitz :-) Mar 06 16:25
paramahamsa The thing is, I’m in India. Nothing here? Mar 06 16:27
paramahamsa Where is Roy’s group? Mar 06 16:27
schestowitz http://techdirt.com/articles/200… Moody: “No Doubt: Buy A Concert Ticket, Download All Our Songs – make money on the scarce goods, give away the abundant ones” Mar 06 16:27
schestowitz What do you mean by “Group”? Mar 06 16:27
_Hicham_ paramahamsa : you are now in Roy’s Group Mar 06 16:28
paramahamsa I mean a bunch of people in a particular geographic location who physically meet, Mar 06 16:29
_Hicham_ ah Mar 06 16:29
_Hicham_ Maybe in the US Mar 06 16:29
_Hicham_ do you have any meetings in the US Roy? Mar 06 16:30
schestowitz The ‘disease’ (Linux) is spreading in American: Cuba Gets an (Open) Hand from Brazil < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/03/c… > Mar 06 16:30
schestowitz *American nations… Mar 06 16:30
schestowitz We have ManLUG here. Mar 06 16:30
paramahamsa The US is a little far for me to be travelling every now and then… Mar 06 16:30
schestowitz First one in the UK…. but I hardly attend it anymore. Linux grew past the LUGs Mar 06 16:31
paramahamsa Who is Roy? Mar 06 16:31
schestowitz Do LUGs still matter? < http://www.linux.com/feature/50878 > Mar 06 16:31
schestowitz paramahamsa: I guess the Internet changed a lot too, not just at the coding level. Mar 06 16:32
schestowitz http://www.worldchanging.com/arc… “The Latest on Climate Science, Solutions, and Politics Jack Bauer becomes first-ever carbon-neutral torturer as Rupert Murdoch says “Climate change poses clear, catastrophic threats”” Mar 06 16:32
schestowitz Even Murdoch! Mar 06 16:32
schestowitz Riding with the first cowboys – in 3500 BC  < http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn167… > Mar 06 16:34
*_Hicham_ has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) Mar 06 16:36
schestowitz The Microsoft press is whitewashing the crimes of a family that for decades has defrauded the United States government: http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/… Mar 06 16:38
paramahamsa schestowitz: do you hang around on this channel all day? Mar 06 16:39
schestowitz When I’m home Mar 06 16:40
schestowitz What is this eWeek Europe? Mar 06 16:42
schestowitz http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/comment… Mar 06 16:42
paramahamsa What’s your profession? Mar 06 16:42
schestowitz And Pete Judge is from ZDNet UK Mar 06 16:42
schestowitz eWeek is on bankruptcy protection of something (Ziff Davis) with very few writers left… Mar 06 16:42
schestowitz paramahamsa: research Mar 06 16:42
schestowitz Protest against MS: http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/comment/mi… Mar 06 16:42
paramahamsa schestowitz: what research? Mar 06 16:43
schestowitz Mostly FOSS stuff (not paid for) Mar 06 16:44
schestowitz Conference on the European patent system, Brussels, Belgium < http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=… > Mar 06 16:45
schestowitz ping zoobab01 Mar 06 16:46
paramahamsa schestowitz: Do you have a random-link-generator or something? Mar 06 16:47
schestowitz I know someone who’s part of the WG7 (Open Source) and we need info.. Mar 06 16:47
schestowitz schestowitz: random? No, why? Mar 06 16:47
schestowitz zoobab01: They need to deal with SAP and CompTIA — those that want to call Open Source some criminal business. One document has been leaked to Wikileaks and therefore one can request the entirety of the documents of this strategy panel (perhaps the one of all the workgroups). Maybe we can request the access to documents, via the European Commission… Mar 06 16:48
schestowitz Which person/address should I contact? I can see this link, which explains some of it, but it’s in French: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/Lex… Mar 06 16:49
paramahamsa schestowitz: not quite random, but you seem to be throwing links out faster than I can read the pages! Mar 06 16:49
zoobab01 DG enterprise & DG Infso are the one organising the ESS Mar 06 16:50
schestowitz What’s their E-mail addy? Mar 06 16:50
schestowitz Maybe we can pull copies of the documents Mar 06 16:50
schestowitz It makes it hard for Zuck et al to toss rubbish at em Mar 06 16:50
schestowitz Transparency for open source panels, no? :-) Mar 06 16:50
schestowitz I spoke to Zuck (and trapped him) too, but I doubt he wants to talk further, for obvious reasons. Mar 06 16:51
zoobab01 mmh Mar 06 16:53
zoobab01 European Software Strategy is a closed forum Mar 06 16:54
zoobab01 that’s the answer you will get from the COmmission Mar 06 16:54
schestowitz haha :-) Mar 06 16:54
zoobab01 but it is good to show the light on the darkness Mar 06 16:54
schestowitz Close forum on FOSS. Mar 06 16:54
schestowitz *Closed Mar 06 16:54
zoobab01 and get an official answer Mar 06 16:54
schestowitz Who would you contact? Mar 06 16:54
schestowitz To have it written down that they refuse access would be valuable Mar 06 16:55
schestowitz Like you guys did re: ACTA Mar 06 16:55
zoobab01 wait Mar 06 16:55
schestowitz This gets people more angry Mar 06 16:55
schestowitz Then it gets those behind closed doors uncomfortable/nervous Mar 06 16:55
zoobab01 you can request only the ACT submission Mar 06 16:55
zoobab01 because it was leaked Mar 06 16:55
schestowitz Like the BRM… Mar 06 16:55
zoobab01 so if they refuse, it does not matter so much Mar 06 16:56
zoobab01 if they release the contrib, you can ask for more Mar 06 16:56
schestowitz Who can this be requested from? Mar 06 16:56
schestowitz I see names in the docs. Mar 06 16:56
schestowitz Female ones too Mar 06 16:56
schestowitz Are those like panel mods? Mar 06 16:56
schestowitz The forces of evil make a move: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:… Mar 06 17:13
schestowitz DS Lite to be killed off  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquire… > for the better :-) Mar 06 17:15
schestowitz Let’s hope that Big Blue has no intent of associating itself with corruptions: < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new… > (IBM set to buy Satyam) Mar 06 17:17
schestowitz Earthquake felt across Melbourne < http://www.itwire.com/content… > Mar 06 17:20
schestowitz No wonder Mahalo has been accused of spamming: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/20… Mar 06 17:22
schestowitz I notice links there to Net Applications, which is not statistics; ti’s junk science and it’s sponsored by Apple and Microsoft. Mar 06 17:26
MinceR it’s the Intelligent Design of market share :) Mar 06 17:26
schestowitz On the Eighth Day, God gave us Windows Vista. Hallelujah. Mar 06 17:27
schestowitz http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technolo… Mar 06 17:28
schestowitz MSBBC goes on a Wikipedia rant: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_pol… Mar 06 17:29
schestowitz There are some more obscure companies here < http://au.sys-con.com/node/863852/… > which claim to deliver Web surveys Mar 06 17:31
PetoKraus hehe, want to see a bit of statistics? Mar 06 17:31
PetoKraus http://pk.gjhak.sk/old/.s… Mar 06 17:31
schestowitz Hehe. http://www.statcounter.com/microsoft_office_live/ (StatCounter provides free customisable hit counters, visitor tracking and website stats for Microsoft Office Live). Keep it where it’s warm.. Mar 06 17:32
schestowitz PetoKraus: whose class? Mar 06 17:33
PetoKraus my Mar 06 17:33
PetoKraus chemistry Mar 06 17:33
PetoKraus it’s just one 20 marks class test Mar 06 17:33
PetoKraus i though i was rubbish when I had only 14.5 out of twenty Mar 06 17:34
PetoKraus but a wee bit of statistics Mar 06 17:34
PetoKraus and i’m feeling better :D Mar 06 17:34
schestowitz Beware stats in general.. Mar 06 17:34
schestowitz Especially when the dataset is too diverse and large Mar 06 17:34
PetoKraus not if you are the one making them :D Mar 06 17:34
schestowitz These stats ‘companies’ have a business model Mar 06 17:34
schestowitz Giving truth is rarely their bsuiness model Mar 06 17:34
schestowitz They admit it’s biased Mar 06 17:35
schestowitz Net Applications for example Mar 06 17:35
schestowitz They also change them after publication Mar 06 17:35
schestowitz So buy consulting from then… they might do some ‘magic’ Mar 06 17:35
schestowitz Or give them your biased (population wise) logs Mar 06 17:35
schestowitz Rome meeting snubs intelligent design, creationism  < http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/E… > Mar 06 17:37
PetoKraus schestowitz: sure Mar 06 17:37
PetoKraus but again Mar 06 17:37
schestowitz ‘The foundation has criticized intelligent design in the past and says on its Web site that it doesn’t support any research or programs that “deny large areas of well-documented scientific knowledge.”‘ Mar 06 17:38
PetoKraus if you are the one making the statistics Mar 06 17:38
PetoKraus you don’t have to fear :D Mar 06 17:38
PetoKraus you are manipulating these numbers any way you want Mar 06 17:38
PetoKraus so… ;) Mar 06 17:38
schestowitz Happy with ours :-) Mar 06 17:38
schestowitz BN: half the world uses Linux Mar 06 17:38
schestowitz Ms: “Just the Facts” (/WHICH/ facts?) Mar 06 17:39
schestowitz Here’s why Digg is broken: USocial CEO: ‘We’re gaming Digg’ < http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/techn… >. It would be better if Digg just died and emitted people to sites that are not gamed. I hardly contribute to Digg anymore. Mar 06 17:45
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.17.92) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 17:59
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?… “A recent article showed a presentation pie chart by MS CEO Balmer, who stated Linux was a bigger threat than the MAC, depicted Linux with a slightly bigger market share than Apple’s 10%.” Mar 06 18:02
MinceR if apple’s is 10%, that is Mar 06 18:03
schestowitz Yeah :-D Mar 06 18:03
schestowitz In the US maybe. Mar 06 18:03
schestowitz US=world Mar 06 18:04
*MinceR is offworld Mar 06 18:04
_Hicham_ it has a larger market share Mar 06 18:04
_Hicham_ otherwise, they wouldn’t have done the “Get the Facts” Campaign Mar 06 18:05
MinceR Get the FUD Mar 06 18:07
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph… “Seti@home (the most popular project) has Linux-client numbers above 10%. “ Mar 06 18:08
schestowitz      > MinceR is offworld Mar 06 18:10
schestowitz Slipped off the wedge of the disc? Mar 06 18:11
MinceR went through the Gate Mar 06 18:11
MinceR “door to heaven” Mar 06 18:11
PetoKraus how’s the stairway? Mar 06 18:12
schestowitz Money over freedom at Sun: http://weblog.infoworld.com/openre… Mar 06 18:12
*zer0c00l has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 06 18:13
_Hicham_ freedom first Mar 06 18:13
schestowitz SUSE is slowing down: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/… Mar 06 18:13
PetoKraus oh god Mar 06 18:15
PetoKraus (18:19:36) Scherff, Aline: yea im absolutely gutted…my supervisor wanted the data finished so he can look at it over the weekend and the lab will prolly not be available on mon…and tues im never in…and wed is the deadline Mar 06 18:15
PetoKraus (18:19:46) Peter Kraus: well Mar 06 18:15
PetoKraus (18:19:57) Peter Kraus: do you HAVE to do it in the lab? Mar 06 18:15
PetoKraus (18:19:58) Peter Kraus: i mean Mar 06 18:15
PetoKraus (18:20:09) Peter Kraus: from what i know, it’s a computer program Mar 06 18:16
PetoKraus (18:20:42) Scherff, Aline: and its licenced and costs like a fortune plus it only runs on hi end pcs Mar 06 18:16
MinceR can the lab be accessed over the net? Mar 06 18:16
PetoKraus it’s psychology lab Mar 06 18:17
PetoKraus running on windows machines Mar 06 18:17
PetoKraus with novell zenworks Mar 06 18:17
PetoKraus the short answer is: unless you hack it Mar 06 18:17
PetoKraus which shouldn’t be that hard Mar 06 18:17
PetoKraus but even 1st year computing science students don’t get SSH access to the uni Mar 06 18:17
schestowitz No wonder it’s a psychology lab.. Mar 06 18:17
Balrog hello everyone Mar 06 18:17
schestowitz :-) Mar 06 18:17
Balrog here every cis student gets SSH access Mar 06 18:17
Balrog :) Mar 06 18:18
PetoKraus I KNOW Mar 06 18:18
schestowitz SSHISH! Mar 06 18:18
Balrog not windows remote login, though :) Mar 06 18:18
PetoKraus i’m really disappointed at the state of software in my uni Mar 06 18:20
Balrog explain how it is? Mar 06 18:20
*zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@210.212.255.131) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 06 18:21
PetoKraus well Mar 06 18:21
PetoKraus the wireless for instance. I couldn’t connect to the unsecured wireless today with wicd Mar 06 18:21
Balrog here wireless sucks Mar 06 18:21
PetoKraus but that might be just some misconfig on my side Mar 06 18:21
PetoKraus but anyway Mar 06 18:21
Balrog but it’s the buildings Mar 06 18:21
PetoKraus it’s unsecured, but! you have to use vpn Mar 06 18:22
PetoKraus which wouldn’t be a problem if they used normal vpn Mar 06 18:22
Balrog not here … you use captive-portal Mar 06 18:22
Balrog (around here) Mar 06 18:22
trmanco schestowitz, posting on identi.ca eh! :-P Mar 06 18:22
Balrog just a login page Mar 06 18:22
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