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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 12th, 2009 – Part 3

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:17 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

twitter the same two are in a much tighter, and happier looking, people pile here https://usshop.ubuntu.com/imag… Mar 12 21:20
balzac gay people ought to be represented in marketing campaigns Mar 12 21:21
twitter I don’t look at any of those pictures and imagine the models taking warm showers together Mar 12 21:21
balzac but unless a particular niche market is the focus of the campaign, no particular group should be appear to be the one you’re marketing to Mar 12 21:22
twitter I’m more than a little tired of marketing campaigns Mar 12 21:23
balzac neither do I Mar 12 21:23
balzac I’d say the group is a bit too tidy looking as well Mar 12 21:23
balzac where’s the fat guy, the old guy, the pony-tail? Mar 12 21:24
balzac that’s a lot of chicks for a software scene Mar 12 21:24
twitter that’s how marketing campaigns are – use this and you will will be happy and healthy Mar 12 21:24
balzac right Mar 12 21:24
twitter Ubuntu seeks to create community.  I can understand how they would like to have pictures of people happy and comfortable with each other. Mar 12 21:25
balzac well, authenticity strikes people more directly Mar 12 21:26
balzac it’s a little bit contrived Mar 12 21:27
balzac I could round up a gaggle of freaks and nerds and it would probably be a lot more representative of Ubuntu users and geeks in general Mar 12 21:27
balzac probably, those two dudes were laughing about how silly the combination of the posing and the slogan on the shirts were together. Mar 12 21:28
balzac whatever. all I know is that ad made Digg.com squirm. 800+ Diggs Mar 12 21:29
balzac http://digg.com/linux_unix… Mar 12 21:30
balzac I personally find Digg, as a demographic group is pretty juvenile, but they’re pretty well representative of the age and gender demographics of ubuntu as well Mar 12 21:31
balzac I suspect debian users are, on average, maybe 7-10 years older than ubuntu users Mar 12 21:31
balzac Digg has more ubuntu than debian users, in my estimation Mar 12 21:31
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@ has joined #boycottnovell Mar 12 21:32
balzac I thought naming Fedora “Leonidas” was a bit of a marketing flub as well Mar 12 21:33
balzac code-name Mar 12 21:33
twitter M$ community http://bayimg.com/EaGCLAABL Mar 12 21:35
twitter I added the Nazis on the left, but the black shirted wonder twins and horror painting on the right are all part of the original image. Mar 12 21:36
twitter yes, I misspelled conformity Mar 12 21:36
_Hicham_ what do u think of Mark Shuttleworth? Mar 12 21:41
schestowitz Balrog_: no point writing about the French migration. It’s covered widely already. Old news too (last year they announced the migration in AP) Mar 12 21:47
twitter I don’t know Shuttleworth.  He says he believes in freedom and wants Ubuntu to be free.  I’ve never heard anything bad about him. Mar 12 21:47
twitter here’s a little fun for the bayimg vista page http://bayimg.com/dAoeBAaBE Mar 12 21:48
balzac I think Shuttleworth is a natural leader Mar 12 21:48
balzac good guy Mar 12 21:48
balzac perhaps a bit overly-diplomatic Mar 12 21:49
balzac I have the same complaint about Obama, but he’s turned out pretty successful Mar 12 21:49
twitter I liked this image better though, http://bayimg.com/pAhGMaaBi Mar 12 21:50
balzac nice one twitter Mar 12 21:50
twitter thanks Mar 12 21:50
balzac perfect conformity, world domination, what could go wrong? Mar 12 21:50
twitter everything Mar 12 21:51
twitter ha ha Mar 12 21:51
balzac and pretty uniformly one ethnic group and one gender Mar 12 21:51
balzac not much age variation there either Mar 12 21:51
twitter I see one or two females and a couple of brown guys all technically Caucasian.  Can’t say much for ethnicity from here but know they all have to worship Bill Gates and greed to wear the black shirt. Mar 12 21:54
*Eruaran has quit (“http://quassel-irc.org – Chat comfortably. Anywhere.”) Mar 12 21:55
schestowitz *LOL* Longhorn academy Mar 12 21:58
balzac twitter: you could just be a smart conformist who stumbles into that group Mar 12 21:59
balzac they can’t all be ambitious pricks, there have to be a few token normal folks Mar 12 21:59
schestowitz http://www.bloomberg.com/apps… “Economist Carl B. Shapiro, who endorsed the Clinton administration’s plan to break up Microsoft Corp. as an expert witness, has rejoined the U.S. Justice Department as the antitrust division’s chief economist, people familiar with the appointment said. “ Mar 12 22:00
schestowitz Tiemann sent me a headsup Mar 12 22:01
schestowitz *headsup Mar 12 22:01
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 12 22:02
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 12 22:03
balzac what about? Mar 12 22:05
schestowitz Let’s see who stuffs the authorities with more cronies :-) Mar 12 22:06
schestowitz Microsoft is trying to poison ObamAA Mar 12 22:06
schestowitz Vassallo: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/0… Mar 12 22:06
schestowitz Varney: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/19/chris… Mar 12 22:06
schestowitz Barnett: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/… Mar 12 22:06
balzac Roy, pass this along to Tiemann, please Mar 12 22:06
balzac http://www.oteltours.com/fedora_le… Mar 12 22:06
balzac jk Mar 12 22:06
schestowitz no Mar 12 22:06
balzac I’m taking that down Mar 12 22:07
balzac it’s too silly Mar 12 22:07
schestowitz it is Mar 12 22:07
schestowitz kind of kinky Mar 12 22:07
_Hicham_ Microsoft will adopt Linux Mar 12 22:08
_Hicham_ and provide open source solutions to its customers Mar 12 22:08
_Hicham_ since they can’t afford to secure the whole crap Mar 12 22:08
balzac In 1987, I realized that GNU software was some of the best software to be found anywhere, and that the GNU Manifesto was really a business plan in disguise. Mar 12 22:08
balzac from:http://people.redhat.com/tiemann/ Mar 12 22:09
balzac smart guy Mar 12 22:09
balzac It’s a good way to see the inherent opportunity in the GNU Manifesto, although it’s more than that. Mar 12 22:10
schestowitz Someone mailed me this: Mar 12 22:11
schestowitz “Richard A. Epstein is the James Parker Hall Distinguished Service Professor of Law, at the University of Chicago, the Peter and Kirsten Bedford Senior Fellow, the Hoover Institution, and a visiting professor at New York University Law School. He has consulted from time to time with Microsoft. ” http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d28ecf10-fd46… Mar 12 22:11
schestowitz Short story: Financial Times Gives Room for Microsoft Drones to Publish Attacks on EU Commission Mar 12 22:11
schestowitz opensuse download resorted only just now (2 days later): [opensuse-announce] Update: download.opensuse.org Restored Mar 12 22:12
MinceR they might adopt some random *bsd instead Mar 12 22:13
benJIman Actually most functionality was restored early yesterday, with a few issues that were resolved today.~ Mar 12 22:13
MinceR m$, that is. Mar 12 22:13
Balrog_ amazon / kindle mess Mar 12 22:17
Balrog_ http://yro.slashdot.org/article… Mar 12 22:17
Balrog_ http://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh… Mar 12 22:17
Balrog_ this was a tool to allow you to use non-kindle books on kindle (basically mobiread-type ebooks) Mar 12 22:18
_Hicham_ http://osnews.com/story/21035/Ballme… Mar 12 22:18
Balrog_ _Hicham_: I saw that a week or two ago Mar 12 22:19
schestowitz _Hicham_: Remember that only a few Microsoft products are profitable (and only in wealthy countries where margins eroded too). They now try to sell hardware (shops), patent licences, and services (with limited success). Zune and XBox (DRM on hardware) cost them billions. Mar 12 22:19
Balrog_ between Apple and Linux, MS will lose Mar 12 22:19
schestowitz I spoke to Bill Parish once and I still talk to Microsoft shareholders. I reckon Bill and Steve bluff a lot. Con artists are a dime a dozen these days. Mar 12 22:19
schestowitz Wow, I can’t wait to make a post with some new info I got Mar 12 22:20
schestowitz http://finance.yahoo.com/q/cq?d… Mar 12 22:20
schestowitz Microsoft is in trouble Mar 12 22:21
MinceR i hope crApple will lose too Mar 12 22:21
MinceR we can’t afford to have another microsoft. Mar 12 22:21
Balrog_ MinceR: that’s not going to happen. Mar 12 22:21
_Hicham_ here in Morocco, almost every windows copy is pirated Mar 12 22:21
schestowitz “BTW, Morgan Stanley put out a research note reducing their earnings expectations for Microsoft.  The note said that the PC industry was going to be down dramatically in 2009 and MSFT wasn’t going to sell as much.  Look how it affected their stock, and the stocks of others that may be related to such news” Mar 12 22:21
schestowitz “I actually think that the idea of an actual enforcer in DOJ, not the reasons given in the MS downgrade, is what’s behind MSFT’s contrary motion.” Mar 12 22:21
schestowitz _Hicham_: yes, in most of the world Mar 12 22:21
schestowitz Else, they move to Linux Mar 12 22:22
schestowitz Or sell PCs with Linux Mar 12 22:22
_Hicham_ in the universities also here Mar 12 22:22
Balrog_ Apple will probably get 33% of market share at most [maximum ever], IMO Mar 12 22:22
_Hicham_ in the government offices Mar 12 22:22
schestowitz MinceR: Apple is too expensive Mar 12 22:22
_Hicham_ everything is pirated Mar 12 22:22
schestowitz It targets rich people who buy ‘dreams’ Mar 12 22:22
_Hicham_ piracy kills linux Mar 12 22:22
schestowitz That’s why Microsoft loves counterfeiting Mar 12 22:22
schestowitz WIndows is gratis Mar 12 22:23
MinceR schestowitz: which could mean that we won’t have any choice if we want powerful pcs. Mar 12 22:23
schestowitz They charge only if they can fool the costimer Mar 12 22:23
schestowitz Or can afford to take her/him to court Mar 12 22:23
_Hicham_ I think that we should help Microsoft enforce their anti-piracy policy Mar 12 22:23
Balrog_ Apple products still are more polished and mature (talking from a UI and end-user-experience point of view) level Mar 12 22:23
Balrog_ _Hicham_: The BSA is nasty Mar 12 22:23
_Hicham_ if no one can pirate Windows, sure Linux will win Mar 12 22:23
MinceR Balrog_: that’s not my experience. Mar 12 22:23
Balrog_ MinceR: explain…or do you want a copy of Windows in your OS? :P Mar 12 22:24
_Hicham_ BSA is not sufficient Mar 12 22:24
Balrog_ (meaning, do you want to have a ‘clone’ of the Windows-UI) Mar 12 22:24
MinceR Balrog_: i’ve found osx to be extremely limited and their HIG to be bullshit. Mar 12 22:24
MinceR even that’s preferable to a clone of the macos gui Mar 12 22:24
schestowitz BSA: friends of Gates family Mar 12 22:24
Balrog_ the HIG descend from the original mac GUI Mar 12 22:25
schestowitz People who worked for Billy’s dad Mar 12 22:25
Balrog_ which MS took from Mar 12 22:25
_Hicham_ it is not necessary to copy from an OS Mar 12 22:25
MinceR at least they didn’t take all the stupidity Mar 12 22:25
MinceR and btw apple stole from xerox Mar 12 22:25
Balrog_ well, I find it more efficient with the OS X gui and all Mar 12 22:25
MinceR let’s not pretend apple invented the wheel. Mar 12 22:25
Balrog_ Xerox invested in Apple Mar 12 22:25
Omar87 Hello everyone. Mar 12 22:25
MinceR invested? that’s very far from the story i’ve heard. Mar 12 22:25
_Hicham_ Hello Omar! Mar 12 22:26
Balrog_ “Xerox invested $1 million in Apple by purchasing 100,000 shares at $10 each. Furthermore, Xerox signed an agreement with Apple to never purchase more than 5 percent of Apple’s outstanding shares. Within a year, these shares split into 800,000 worth $17.6 million when Apple went public” Mar 12 22:26
Omar87 _Hicham_: Hey! Mar 12 22:26
Balrog_ http://www.vectronicsappleworl… Mar 12 22:26
Balrog_ I’ll find another source if you wish Mar 12 22:26
Balrog_ also read folklore.org Mar 12 22:26
schestowitz Balrog_: and now MS invests in Apple Mar 12 22:27
Balrog_ it says it right in the wikipedia article Mar 12 22:27
Balrog_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A… Mar 12 22:27
schestowitz So Microsoft steals from Apple Mar 12 22:27
Balrog_ well, MS did invest in apple Mar 12 22:27
schestowitz Like Apple ‘stole’ from Xerox Mar 12 22:27
Balrog_ I don’t know how it is now Mar 12 22:27
MinceR so m$ didn’t steal either? Mar 12 22:27
Balrog_ MS stole in a different way Mar 12 22:27
MinceR how so? Mar 12 22:27
schestowitz MS claimed ctredit Mar 12 22:27
schestowitz They called it “Windows” Mar 12 22:27
Balrog_ actually it turned out to be the stupidity of Apple’s CEO Mar 12 22:27
MinceR so did apple Mar 12 22:28
schestowitz So you’ll think they pioneered it :-) Mar 12 22:28
MinceR apple keeps claiming credit for all sorts of things they didn’t invent Mar 12 22:28
_Hicham_ the two Steves love each other Mar 12 22:28
Balrog_ back in the late 80′s Sculley perpetually licensed the GUI elements to MS Mar 12 22:28
MinceR so do the apple fanboys on their behalf Mar 12 22:28
schestowitz _Hicham_: one calls Linux cancer, another Steve has it Mar 12 22:28
Balrog_ “Apple came up with a list of 189 GUI elements; the judge decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement” Mar 12 22:28
MinceR schestowitz: lol Mar 12 22:28
Balrog_ the rest were obvious or not original to Apple Mar 12 22:29
Balrog_ see http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py… Mar 12 22:30
schestowitz Micron goes banandas < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquire… > Mar 12 22:31
schestowitz When will apple go bananas too? Mar 12 22:31
schestowitz NAND prices up by 90 per cent  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquire… > Deflation. eh? Mar 12 22:31
schestowitz brb, I’ve got to shower Mar 12 22:31
Balrog_ Apple needs those 32GB chips Mar 12 22:32
Balrog_ here’s the page on the UI ideas and PARC Mar 12 22:32
Balrog_ http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.p… Mar 12 22:32
MinceR how significant was xerox’s investment in apple back then, compared to capital apple already had? Mar 12 22:33
Balrog_ “When Apple went public a couple years later, Xerox’ investment suddenly became worth over $17 million, far more than it made on the Star itself.” Mar 12 22:33
MinceR that doesn’t answer my question Mar 12 22:34
Balrog_ I’m trying to find how much aapl was when it went public Mar 12 22:35
Balrog_ oh … how much capital they had? Mar 12 22:35
MinceR well, their market cap at the point they went public is probably sufficient Mar 12 22:35
Balrog_ they did have good Apple II sales Mar 12 22:35
MinceR if we know whether what xerox invested is part of that or not Mar 12 22:35
Balrog_ another thing…do you think apple should have ‘allowed’ people to clone the Mac? Mar 12 22:37
Balrog_ I find that not possible, due to the fact that much of the OS was burned-in-ROM and on the logic board Mar 12 22:38
Balrog_ MinceR: any good reference for such info? Mar 12 22:39
Balrog_ (like historical market cap) Mar 12 22:40
MinceR nope — i’ve never done such research before Mar 12 22:40
Balrog_ ok :/ Mar 12 22:40
Balrog_ yeah … the rom thing was a problem for cloners Mar 12 22:40
MinceR i don’t know if yahoo or google have such info Mar 12 22:40
Balrog_ I looked … they have prices but not cap Mar 12 22:40
MinceR i think cloning the mac would have opened new possibilities for the market Mar 12 22:41
MinceR and would have been technically advantageous Mar 12 22:41
MinceR but by no means the only way Mar 12 22:41
Balrog_ no, the problem was more with Jean-Louis Gasee Mar 12 22:41
Balrog_ (if I spelled it right) Mar 12 22:41
Balrog_ he felt that macs should be very, very expensive Mar 12 22:41
MinceR strange… didn’t they have the lisa for that? Mar 12 22:41
Balrog_ at one point the price range was $3500 – $12000, if my numbers are right Mar 12 22:42
Balrog_ nope, that happened after jobs was kicked out Mar 12 22:42
Balrog_ the original mac was $2500, which wasn’t that bad for the day Mar 12 22:42
MinceR btw, i find the sinclair ql much more interesting than the original mac at that time Mar 12 22:42
Balrog_ explain Mar 12 22:42
Balrog_ it didn’t have resources, fonts, a gui, menus, etc, etc Mar 12 22:43
MinceR http://www.qlvsjaguar.homepage.bluewin.ch/… Mar 12 22:43
MinceR to me what’s most important is that it was the first pc with preemptive multitasking Mar 12 22:43
MinceR at a time when most pcs didn’t even have multitasking in any form Mar 12 22:43
MinceR they did seem to have a gui, too — though that might have been app-dependent Mar 12 22:44
Balrog_ remember … the mac had 64kb of ROM, 128 kb RAM, and a 400kb disk Mar 12 22:44
MinceR and no multitasking Mar 12 22:45
MinceR and no colors Mar 12 22:45
Balrog_ and you had room for OS, an application, and a few documents in that Mar 12 22:45
Balrog_ I’d take the mac’s screen of those days over any color screen of those days Mar 12 22:45
MinceR the worst thing about the mac was the concept, though Mar 12 22:45
MinceR designing a computer for idiots Mar 12 22:45
schestowitz Logo too Mar 12 22:45
schestowitz An apple a day Mar 12 22:46
Balrog_ because the computers of the day were extremely hard to use Mar 12 22:46
schestowitz But they spend a lot of marketing now Mar 12 22:46
schestowitz 300m per year Mar 12 22:46
MinceR i don’t remember my sinclair zx spectrum being extremely hard to use :> Mar 12 22:46
Balrog_ did you have to type obscure commands? Mar 12 22:46
MinceR i had to type commands in basic Mar 12 22:46
Balrog_ yeah, that’s not what people want Mar 12 22:47
MinceR i had a manual, sadly it was in german — later i got manuals in hungarian Mar 12 22:47
Balrog_ people want something you plug in and it works Mar 12 22:47
MinceR i don’t care what people want, i care about what’s powerful and what gets the job done :> Mar 12 22:47
MinceR and most importantly, what i want Mar 12 22:47
Balrog_ ok, original mac was $2500, the 512k-ram model was $2000 …… Mar 12 22:47
Balrog_ well what about wysiwyg? Mar 12 22:48
trmanco http://groups.google.com/group/… Mar 12 22:48
Balrog_ what-you-see-is-what-you-get? Mar 12 22:48
MinceR and a general-purpose computer will never expose all its functionality just by plugging it in, until it becomes capable of reading the thoughts of the user Mar 12 22:48
MinceR wysiwyg is overrated Mar 12 22:48
Omar87 Guys, what do you think of those who say that Ubuntu didn’t create anything new, and that it’s just using what others have made? Mar 12 22:48
MinceR Omar87: they’re clueless Mar 12 22:48
Balrog_ Under Gasee, a mac cost $3700 – $8700 Mar 12 22:49
Balrog_ gassee * Mar 12 22:49
Omar87 Balrog_: What’s a Gassee? Mar 12 22:49
MinceR ubuntu created a debian spinoff with recent yet stable packages, a system that’s easier to start using and they started using at least one practice that i consider good practice Mar 12 22:49
Balrog_ Gassee is a former head of Mac development at Apple Mar 12 22:50
Balrog_ from the ’80s Mar 12 22:50
MinceR sure, they didn’t do most of the work — no one distro did Mar 12 22:50
Balrog_ He wrote about Microsoft too Mar 12 22:51
Balrog_ http://lists.essential.org/info-po… Mar 12 22:51
Balrog_ “Jean-Louis Gassée on why PC manufacturers don’t sell non MS products” Mar 12 22:51
Balrog_ in 1999 Mar 12 22:51
MinceR i think the ‘ubuntu didn’t do anything’ lie comes from novell Mar 12 22:51
Omar87 MinceR: Yeah, and I personally believe, that if it weren’t for Ubuntu, Linux would have likely never made it to the market at least for ten more years or so. Mar 12 22:51
MinceR as they tried to smear the most popular distro Mar 12 22:51
Balrog_ good read Mar 12 22:51
Balrog_ (he was behind BeOS for a while … good idea, not very mature/usable though) Mar 12 22:52
MinceR sadly, BeOS copied far too little from Unix Mar 12 22:53
Balrog_ I’m getting a lot of error-500′s these days Mar 12 22:53
Balrog_ Jobs was smarter with NEXT Mar 12 22:53
MinceR i recall at least one good idea from next Mar 12 22:53
Balrog_ when it came to that part Mar 12 22:53
MinceR putting the scroll bar buttons next to each other :> Mar 12 22:53
Balrog_ I have a cube that I am able to play with Mar 12 22:53
Balrog_ MinceR: you know you can turn that on in OS X? Mar 12 22:53
MinceR i don’t Mar 12 22:54
MinceR via property lists? Mar 12 22:54
Balrog_ no, Prefs –> Appearance Mar 12 22:54
Balrog_ ‘Place Scroll Arrows: Together / At top and bottom’ Mar 12 22:54
MinceR it boggles the mind Mar 12 22:54
MinceR how can a single option hide among so few? Mar 12 22:54
MinceR anyway, i’ve turned it on in Qt and GTK+ Mar 12 22:55
MinceR :) Mar 12 22:55
Balrog_ what other options do you want other than [a] non-unified menubar and [b] mousefocus? Mar 12 22:55
Balrog_ (with property lists, you can have both scrollbuttons next to each other on both ends of the scrollbar :P ) Mar 12 22:55
MinceR hard to tell Mar 12 22:56
MinceR i’ve tried to gather my thoughts about what i’ve gotten used to do and take for granted now Mar 12 22:56
Balrog_ I personally can’t stand mousefocus Mar 12 22:56
Balrog_ I can live with a non-unified menubar though Mar 12 22:56
MinceR multiple workspaces is a must have Mar 12 22:56
Balrog_ OS X has that now Mar 12 22:57
Balrog_ up to 16 Mar 12 22:57
MinceR so is always on top and sticky Mar 12 22:57
Balrog_ MinceR: what on top? Mar 12 22:57
MinceR i’d like to have Desktop Wall and Zoom even though my current desktop doesn’t have them Mar 12 22:57
MinceR making a window stay on top of others even if it doesn’t have the focus Mar 12 22:57
Balrog_ zoom == Ctrl + scroll Mar 12 22:57
Balrog_ ahh that Mar 12 22:57
Balrog_ there are some apps that do that. Mar 12 22:58
_Hicham_ MinceR : what distro do u use? Mar 12 22:58
MinceR also, to mouse focus i’d add bringing the focused window to top if it stays focused for a second and the cursor is over it Mar 12 22:58
MinceR kubuntu Mar 12 22:58
Balrog_ As I said, I can’t stand mousefocus Mar 12 22:58
Balrog_ drives me insane Mar 12 22:58
MinceR i also use rolling up windows sometimes and minimizing more often Mar 12 22:58
MinceR and occasionally turning off window decorations (to save space) Mar 12 22:59
MinceR i have a lot of keybindings to operate on windows, icewm-style Mar 12 22:59
Balrog_ the thing with mousefocus is that you go somewhere, then start typing … where is the text going? Mar 12 22:59
Balrog_ what if it’s a password? Mar 12 22:59
MinceR i point it at a window and type Mar 12 23:00
Balrog_ and if the mouse somehow gets moved? Mar 12 23:00
MinceR also, passwords bring us to another thing: focus stealing prevention Mar 12 23:00
Balrog_ (I’ve had problems with that) Mar 12 23:01
MinceR it doesn’t get moved, i control it Mar 12 23:01
Balrog_ Focus stealing prevention is a problem with terminals Mar 12 23:01
MinceR how so? Mar 12 23:01
Balrog_ how will the system prevent focus stealing when a terminal wants you to enter a password Mar 12 23:02
Balrog_ s/terminal/an app in terminal, like ssh Mar 12 23:02
MinceR my terminals don’t grab the keyboard aggressively, afaik Mar 12 23:02
Balrog_ but if you think you’re in terminal and something else does… Mar 12 23:02
Balrog_ you’re screwed Mar 12 23:02
MinceR i tend to know where the focus is Mar 12 23:03
MinceR especially considering that the terminal has a different cursor if it doesn’t have the focus Mar 12 23:03
Balrog_ OK Mar 12 23:03
MinceR see, i’m not an apple user, i know what’s going on Mar 12 23:03
MinceR :> Mar 12 23:03
schestowitz trmanco: lies, damn lies, and MS benchmarks/TCO Mar 12 23:03
Balrog_ I use Linux as well Mar 12 23:03
Balrog_ never with mousefocus though Mar 12 23:03
Balrog_ I used to use Windows back in the day Mar 12 23:03
MinceR i didn’t like mousefocus until beryl made me try Mar 12 23:03
Balrog_ as I said, mousefocus drives me mad Mar 12 23:03
MinceR i prefer it now :) Mar 12 23:04
trmanco schestowitz, ahh, it’s already spread, awesome Mar 12 23:04
Balrog_ trmanco: link? Mar 12 23:04
MinceR it means less clicking, basically Mar 12 23:04
trmanco Balrog_, http://groups.google.com/group/co… Mar 12 23:04
schestowitz MinceR: it means more Mar 12 23:04
MinceR also, i can just point at a window and use hotkeys with the same ease as clicking on their window Mar 12 23:04
MinceR schestowitz: it means less, actually Mar 12 23:04
schestowitz It means move the hand to the mouse just to fling it Mar 12 23:04
MinceR no clicking to focus a window to start typing Mar 12 23:05
schestowitz From one screen/app to another Mar 12 23:05
schestowitz If you typo Mar 12 23:05
schestowitz *type Mar 12 23:05
MinceR i can switch focus from the keyboard too Mar 12 23:05
Balrog_ alt-tab Mar 12 23:05
schestowitz alt+key Mar 12 23:05
schestowitz orsuper Mar 12 23:05
MinceR indeed Mar 12 23:05
Balrog_ on mac, you have cmd-tab between apps and cmd-~ within apps Mar 12 23:05
Balrog_ much more organized, IMO Mar 12 23:05
schestowitz or alt+tab+shift Mar 12 23:05
MinceR i think that within app thing is rarely what i want Mar 12 23:06
Balrog_ why can’t others do something like that, and rather treat each windows as a separate app…? Mar 12 23:06
MinceR i tend to organize windows by task, not by app Mar 12 23:06
Balrog_ you can organize windows by task Mar 12 23:06
MinceR i tend to have GVIM windows spread all over my environment Mar 12 23:06
schestowitz MinceR: same here Mar 12 23:06
schestowitz Easy to remember this way Mar 12 23:06
MinceR also, konsole windows Mar 12 23:06
schestowitz translucent? Mar 12 23:06
Balrog_ mine are translucent Mar 12 23:07
MinceR pseudo-transparent currently Mar 12 23:07
MinceR i’ll upgrade from gutsy once i can find the time to backup my laptop and do the upgrade Mar 12 23:07
MinceR then i’ll probably have kde4 and start using that Mar 12 23:07
schestowitz Conficker getting bigger and meaner but BitDefender’s free disinfection tool is here to help! < http://www.itwire.com/conte… > Mar 12 23:09
schestowitz Some people get apps that do stuff Mar 12 23:09
schestowitz Windows gets apps that undo stufff Mar 12 23:09
MinceR :) Mar 12 23:09
_Hicham_ MinceR : it is not necessary to backup Mar 12 23:10
_Hicham_ I always do a dist upgrade Mar 12 23:10
Balrog_ what?!?!?! Mar 12 23:10
MinceR i still don’t trust ubuntu to upgrade safely Mar 12 23:10
_Hicham_ since 6.04 Mar 12 23:10
Balrog_ reboot with knoppix or your favorite diag disc Mar 12 23:10
_Hicham_ till now 8.10 Mar 12 23:10
MinceR 2 upgrades were problematic. they didn’t break but i had to manually kick apt through the process after the updater failed. Mar 12 23:11
Balrog_ then dd if=/dev/hda | gzip > /path/to/backup.image Mar 12 23:11
Balrog_ easy enough. Mar 12 23:11
MinceR i’m going to boot a livedvd and do that Mar 12 23:11
MinceR when i have the time :) Mar 12 23:11
_Hicham_ MinceR : I can see why it failed Mar 12 23:11
MinceR (and make sure it’s unmounted or mounted readonly, of course) Mar 12 23:11
MinceR probably because i have lots of extra packages installed. Mar 12 23:11
Balrog_ make sure you boot noswap too Mar 12 23:11
MinceR but it shouldn’t have Mar 12 23:11
Balrog_ knoppix noswap Mar 12 23:12
Balrog_ for knoppix Mar 12 23:12
_Hicham_ basically the updater downloads packages, then installs them Mar 12 23:12
MinceR Balrog_: why? i don’t backup my swap partition Mar 12 23:12
_Hicham_ it is not too risky Mar 12 23:12
twitter balzac, at this point, anyone who knows how to program has to live with their hands in their ears or have a moral problem to work for M$ Mar 12 23:12
Balrog_ then you should be ok Mar 12 23:12
Balrog_ twitter: explain Mar 12 23:12
balzac ? Mar 12 23:12
_Hicham_ twitter : what do u mean? Mar 12 23:12
_Hicham_ it is not bad to port apps to windows Mar 12 23:12
MinceR many people don’t even know what “moral” is Mar 12 23:13
_Hicham_ i always do it Mar 12 23:13
Balrog_ MinceR: what else do you know about NEXT? Did you ever use a NEXT computer? Mar 12 23:13
Balrog_ or the OS? Mar 12 23:13
MinceR we live in a cult of the Almighty Money. Mar 12 23:13
MinceR Balrog_: i know that’s where darwin started and that Doom was developed on/for next before it was ported to dos Mar 12 23:13
_Hicham_ Ubuntu 9.04 is said to be fast Mar 12 23:13
MinceR (so the ripoff osx is based on started somewhere in the next times) Mar 12 23:14
_Hicham_ i don’t know if I should test it on my computer Mar 12 23:14
_Hicham_ basically there is nothing to fear Mar 12 23:14
Balrog_ I wouldn’t call OS X a ripoff .. why do you? Mar 12 23:14
_Hicham_ but there was some serious hardware problems Mar 12 23:14
_Hicham_ like the recent beta Ubuntu  8.10 that killed dead many ethernet cards Mar 12 23:15
schestowitz          MinceR < we live in a cult of the Almighty Money. > Mar 12 23:15
_Hicham_ that is a real problem Mar 12 23:15
schestowitz Not anymore Mar 12 23:15
MinceR Balrog_: because apple parades around about how secure and stable it is, when they didn’t do any of the work that led there Mar 12 23:15
Balrog_ you mean totally bricked? Mar 12 23:15
schestowitz We’ve lived in debt culutre Mar 12 23:15
Balrog_ oh, apple did a lot of work Mar 12 23:15
MinceR and they gave little to nothing back to the community Mar 12 23:15
schestowitz Not it’s depression Mar 12 23:15
MinceR and then we get oppression through the BSA and other means Mar 12 23:15
Balrog_ the security fixes that took place between 10.2 and 10.4 were important Mar 12 23:15
MinceR apple is pushing sw patents Mar 12 23:15
MinceR wow, they ported fixes and patched what they’ve broken? Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz Treu Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz Did you see Apple’s latest mischieft? Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz Wait Mar 12 23:16
MinceR (they didn’t really hurry with the porting, though — see BIND) Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz Apple’s patent exclusion could roil Web standards Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz On March 5 Apple dropped a small bombshell on the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) standards body, excluding one of its patents from the W3C Royalty-Free License commitment of the W3C Patent Policy for Widgets 1.0. The patent in question covers automatic updates to a client computer in a networked operating environment. Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz http://news.cnet.com/8301… Mar 12 23:16
MinceR also, apple is doing a lot of patent FUD nowadays Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz These guys really turns FOSS into something ‘unsexy’: http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/200… Mar 12 23:16
schestowitz MinceR: yes Mar 12 23:16
MinceR so i think they should screw themselves Mar 12 23:17
schestowitz They learned from Steves[sic] Mar 12 23:17
Balrog_ we’ll see Mar 12 23:17
MinceR and the fanboys who believe the ‘we’re teh omg-FLOSS company’ lies from apple should do a reality check. Mar 12 23:17
Balrog_ but they are working with Sun Mar 12 23:17
schestowitz MinceR: read that CNET Asay article Mar 12 23:17
schestowitz He sucks up to Apple Mar 12 23:17
schestowitz A Mar 12 23:17
MinceR schestowitz: i know Mar 12 23:17
schestowitz Characterising them as a FOSS player Mar 12 23:17
schestowitz Wishful thnking Mar 12 23:17
MinceR as i’ve said before, he’s a bitch of apple. Mar 12 23:18
MinceR :> Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz “hey, I use Apple, I like FOSS, leave! Apple! Alone!” Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz But, but… DRM… Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz Asay:LALALALALALALA! I can’t hear you Mar 12 23:18
MinceR schestowitz: i don’t think the depression changed anything about the Cult of the Almighty Money Mar 12 23:18
Balrog_ I smell prior art Mar 12 23:18
Balrog_ with this patent Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz MinceR: true Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz Not they are hopefuls Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz Like DisneyWorld Mar 12 23:18
schestowitz Now they are Cinderlla Mar 12 23:19
schestowitz In the early days Mar 12 23:19
schestowitz Cinderella Mar 12 23:19
Balrog_ really prior art Mar 12 23:19
MinceR hm, that web standard issue reminds me of when apple sabotaged the <video> element in html5 Mar 12 23:19
MinceR together with nokia Mar 12 23:19
schestowitz Yes Mar 12 23:19
schestowitz I thought it was that initially Mar 12 23:19
schestowitz ‘Too’ free Mar 12 23:19
Balrog_ meaning ogg Mar 12 23:19
schestowitz Not good Mar 12 23:20
Balrog_ ? Mar 12 23:20
schestowitz Not DRM.. bad. Mar 12 23:20
schestowitz Balrog_: yes Mar 12 23:20
MinceR yes, ogg theora as a recommended codec that all browsers should support Mar 12 23:20
schestowitz http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/… Mar 12 23:20
MinceR they couldn’t have that as it doesn’t have DRM Mar 12 23:20
Balrog_ well, tests of ogg theora vs. h.264 show that h.264 quality is much better Mar 12 23:20
schestowitz Stephan Wenger, Nokia: “Compatibility with DRM. We understand that this could be a sore point in W3C, but from our viewpoint, any DRM-incompatible video related mechanism is a non-starter with the content industry (Hollywood).” Mar 12 23:20
Balrog_ or rather, quality-to-size ration Mar 12 23:20
Balrog_ ratio * Mar 12 23:20
MinceR (shows how much of Jobs claiming he doesn’t want DRM is true) Mar 12 23:20
Balrog_ the only DRM that h.264 has is in the app store Mar 12 23:21
MinceR Balrog_: h.264 is patent-encumbered, isn’t it? Mar 12 23:21
Balrog_ err, itunes storee Mar 12 23:21
schestowitz Apps store reminds me of candy store Mar 12 23:21
Balrog_ store * Mar 12 23:21
schestowitz Apps wrapped up in bonbon boxes Mar 12 23:21
MinceR which makes it ineligible for a web standard Mar 12 23:21
schestowitz Stephan Wenger used to work for Microsoft Mar 12 23:22
Balrog_ two of its patents were ruled unenforceble Mar 12 23:22
schestowitz He thinks that Web needs DRM Mar 12 23:22
MinceR (and no RAND bullshit, thank-you-very-much) Mar 12 23:22
Balrog_ unenforceable Mar 12 23:22
schestowitz What would timbl say? Mar 12 23:22
Balrog_ * Mar 12 23:22
MinceR Balrog_: that leaves how many? Mar 12 23:23
trmanco wtf -> http://pdb.finkproject.org… Mar 12 23:25
trmanco Description:   Stupid content tracker (1.6.1-1) Mar 12 23:25
MinceR that’s the official description of Git Mar 12 23:25
trmanco This is a stupid (but extremely fast) directory content manager. It doesn’t do a whole lot, but what it _does_ do is track directory contents efficiently. Mar 12 23:25
Balrog_ git == stupid person Mar 12 23:25
Balrog_ not? Mar 12 23:25
MinceR yes Mar 12 23:25
trmanco no Mar 12 23:25
schestowitz MinceR: it’s called git Mar 12 23:26
schestowitz What would you expect? Mar 12 23:26
trmanco Linus says whoever use VS or SVN are stupid. Mar 12 23:26
schestowitz “lame” Mar 12 23:26
schestowitz acronym, I know Mar 12 23:26
trmanco uses* CVS* Mar 12 23:26
Balrog_ NO!!!!! Mar 12 23:26
MinceR i see the main website use both “Git” and “git” Mar 12 23:26
Balrog_ if you want to use CVS, use SVN instead Mar 12 23:26
Balrog_ more modern implementation Mar 12 23:26
MinceR “I’m an egotistical bastard, and I name all my projects after myself. First Linux, now git.” Mar 12 23:27
MinceR http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_(s… Mar 12 23:27
Balrog_ Linus says it has the same problems as CVS though Mar 12 23:27
MinceR Subversion is just a better reimplementation of the CVS model Mar 12 23:27
schestowitz MinceR: sounds like RMS-esque choice Mar 12 23:27
trmanco I use Git and Bazaar Mar 12 23:27
schestowitz geek humour Mar 12 23:27
MinceR i think it’s funny Mar 12 23:27
schestowitz trmanco: that’s bizarre Mar 12 23:27
trmanco maybe Mercurial in the future Mar 12 23:27
MinceR i use Git and tla Mar 12 23:27
trmanco schestowitz, bizarre? Mar 12 23:28
MinceR (though only git for personal projects) Mar 12 23:28
MinceR bizarre bazaar? Mar 12 23:28
Balrog_ bzr Mar 12 23:28
trmanco never heard of TLA Mar 12 23:28
Balrog_ what about Monotone? Mar 12 23:28
trmanco ahh Mar 12 23:28
schestowitz Playful Mar 12 23:28
MinceR TLA is another distributed vcs Mar 12 23:28
schestowitz Can’t recall what RMS calls it Mar 12 23:28
schestowitz Playful somehing Mar 12 23:28
*trmanco got git push ‘ed Mar 12 23:28
MinceR it’s slow and it works with text patches mostly Mar 12 23:28
trmanco origin master Mar 12 23:28
trmanco all patches are text Mar 12 23:29
MinceR and after knowing the power of Git, it’s really a pain to use :> Mar 12 23:29
schestowitz “enjoying playful cleverness” Mar 12 23:29
schestowitz That’s it Mar 12 23:29
Balrog_ I hear that monotone [mtn] is really slow Mar 12 23:29
MinceR trmanco: it does store the full file sometimes though, doesn’t it? Mar 12 23:29
MinceR there’s that “pristine” thing i don’t fully know :) Mar 12 23:30
trmanco MinceR, which one? Mar 12 23:30
MinceR TLA Mar 12 23:30
trmanco I dunno Mar 12 23:30
trmanco I also use git gui and gitk Mar 12 23:30
MinceR i use them too, also qgit Mar 12 23:31
MinceR (actually i prefer qgit to gitk because it’s prettier) Mar 12 23:31
trmanco I’m still to human to read diffs in black and green Mar 12 23:31
MinceR :) Mar 12 23:31
MinceR kompare might help Mar 12 23:31
trmanco MinceR, yes, gitk has a strange UI… its made out of TCL/TK Mar 12 23:31
MinceR indeed Mar 12 23:32
trmanco looks like crap, but useful Mar 12 23:32
MinceR :) Mar 12 23:32
MinceR and git gui is awesome Mar 12 23:32
trmanco yeah Mar 12 23:32
balzac lart Mar 12 23:33
MinceR no u Mar 12 23:33
schestowitz Groklaw RSS feed are finally working again. Mar 12 23:34
Balrog_ ATSC digital TV has patents on it Mar 12 23:34
schestowitz Apple dissed: Linux, Microsoft and Sun to discuss the future of operating systems, but where’s Apple? < http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/content… > Mar 12 23:34
balzac that’s kinda lame Mar 12 23:34
balzac it’s like the UN Security Council, if they don’t consider you a threat, you can’t come Mar 12 23:35
Balrog_ heh Mar 12 23:35
Balrog_ that’s not a good thing, because they’re ignoring a possible threat Mar 12 23:35
Balrog_ but then again, apple has their own ideas Mar 12 23:36
trmanco time to go, cya guys Mar 12 23:36
balzac later Mar 12 23:36
balzac why would the Linux Foundation guy be meeting with Microsoft reps? Mar 12 23:37
balzac what is the point? Mar 12 23:37
balzac and how does Sun relate? Mar 12 23:38
schestowitz *ping* Smari Mar 12 23:38
benJIman Sun & OpenSolaris Mar 12 23:40
MinceR “where’s Apple?” << obviously, they’ll grab the BSDL-ed code once it’s ready and claim they’ve invented the whole thing Mar 12 23:41
balzac heheh Mar 12 23:41
Balrog__ a lot of their code is from NEXT and a lot is original Mar 12 23:42
Balrog__ yes, a lot is BSDL too Mar 12 23:42
balzac Jim Zemlin is there as a moderator Mar 12 23:42
MinceR and a lot of the code in NeXT isn’t theirs either :> Mar 12 23:42
balzac that’s funny Mar 12 23:42
Balrog__ which code in NeXT? Mar 12 23:42
Balrog__ the kernel and all? much is BSDL, but not all Mar 12 23:42
Balrog__ definitely not the stuff that led to Cocoa Mar 12 23:42
MinceR mach and some random *bsd Mar 12 23:43
Balrog__ that differentiates OS X from other UNIX Mar 12 23:43
*Balrog__ is now known as Balrog Mar 12 23:43
balzac you know what this event is? Mar 12 23:43
balzac it’s a circle-jerk Mar 12 23:43
MinceR yeah, crap is what differentiates osx from real Unix :> Mar 12 23:43
MinceR oh, that explains why apple isn’t there — they do it in a closed system. :> Mar 12 23:44
balzac right, apple wanks in solitude Mar 12 23:44
MinceR who’s Jim Zemlin? Mar 12 23:44
balzac Linux Foundation guy Mar 12 23:44
MinceR not in solitude — rather, in the circle of their fanboys Mar 12 23:44
Balrog Cocoa is something OS X has that others don’t Mar 12 23:45
balzac the analogy is losing it’s meaning Mar 12 23:45
MinceR not that others really need it Mar 12 23:45
balzac All I’m saying is that OS summit is a wank-fest Mar 12 23:45
balzac There’s ego involved, I know that much Mar 12 23:45
MinceR what i’d ask is what is m$ doing there Mar 12 23:46
balzac Probably it’s for two humbled proprietary software vendors to acknowledge reality in a controlled environment which will protect their egos. Mar 12 23:46
MinceR other than wasting precious oxygen Mar 12 23:46
balzac not fully acknowledge reality, but make baby-steps in that direction Mar 12 23:46
balzac Sun was humbled by GNU some time ago, and now it still clings to OpenSolaris Mar 12 23:47
MinceR ic Mar 12 23:47
balzac that’s not bad, the license isn’t terrible Mar 12 23:47
Balrog OpenSolaris is CDDL anyway… Mar 12 23:47
balzac Now Microsoft is the new one in the support group Mar 12 23:47
schestowitz balzac: agreed, I hate that meeting too Mar 12 23:47
balzac CDDL – shoulda been GPLv3 Mar 12 23:47
schestowitz They even invited the anti-Linux infiltrators Mar 12 23:47
schestowitz “infiltrator” not being my word Mar 12 23:47
schestowitz I heard people who spoke to the Sam Ramji shill use it Mar 12 23:48
balzac yep, so much pomp and ceremony has to be for the purpose of protecting the egos of people whos heads are up their asses. Mar 12 23:48
schestowitz Suing Linux while trying to steal FOSS devs with bribes Mar 12 23:48
schestowitz To Linux: pay us Mar 12 23:48
schestowitz To FOSS devs: here’s incentive, dump Linux Mar 12 23:48
MinceR CDDL is sun’s way of saying they’re frustrated by the success of GNU and Linux Mar 12 23:48
MinceR and of showing that they’re hostile Mar 12 23:49
balzac Well, they considered GPLv3 Mar 12 23:49
balzac and Linus Torvalds said “we’ll upgrade to GPLv3 as well and we’ll get your code” Mar 12 23:49
balzac (paraphrasing) Mar 12 23:49
balzac and so they went CDDL instead Mar 12 23:49
MinceR a pity Mar 12 23:49
balzac because they couldn’t stand the idea of getting assimilated by GNU/Linux Mar 12 23:49
MinceR it would be a win in itself to convince Linus to switch to GPLv3 :) Mar 12 23:49
balzac and then Linus Torvalds clings to his security blanket – not upgrading to GPLv3 Mar 12 23:50
balzac That’s his line in the sand Mar 12 23:50
Balrog Linus should switch to GPLv3 Mar 12 23:50
balzac because he’s still convinced that he’s the “Neo” of this matrix. Mar 12 23:50
balzac But no, RMS is NEO in this matrix. Mar 12 23:50
Balrog that would help prevent any more MS-Novell type deals Mar 12 23:50
MinceR gn Mar 12 23:53
schestowitz Balrog: +1 Mar 12 23:53
balzac later MinceR Mar 12 23:53
balzac indeed Mar 12 23:53
Balrog RMS will be at my university later this month Mar 12 23:53
Balrog I’ll should get to speak to him in person Mar 12 23:54
Balrog s/I’ll/I Mar 12 23:54
twitter you could just email him Mar 12 23:55
balzac Why doesn’t Linus Torvalds upgrade to GPLv3? Mar 12 23:55
twitter $ Mar 12 23:55
balzac Balrog: do both. Mar 12 23:55
Balrog I’ll see. I always like talking to people in person Mar 12 23:55
Balrog does RMS respond to all email? Mar 12 23:55
twitter yes Mar 12 23:55
balzac quite a bit of mine Mar 12 23:55
balzac I doubt Linus Torvalds would respond to an email Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz Balrog: there’s already too much about the migration: http://linux.slashdot.org/article… http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/03/12/fren… Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz No point in making more noise Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz It’s not news Mar 12 23:56
twitter RMS has made advocacy his mission. Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz It’s just the numbers from OSOR Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz That’s the news Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz Some numbers, maybe quotes Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz The news is from 2008 Mar 12 23:56
schestowitz French police deal blow to Microsoft < http://afp.google.com/article/AL… > Mar 12 23:57
schestowitz AFP probably broke the news at the time Mar 12 23:57
Balrog I posted that here a while ago Mar 12 23:57
schestowitz IIRC, Pearly gates was meeting the Mayor of Paris at the time to shove a nickle up his *. Mar 12 23:57
Balrog when it appeared on slashdot Mar 12 23:57
schestowitz He prevented schools from moving to Linux too Mar 12 23:57
Balrog but yeah, that’s really going back Mar 12 23:57
schestowitz He ‘agreed’ with the  mayor to do the dumping routine Mar 12 23:58
schestowitz Then he want to Dubai/UAE and did the same thing around the same time Mar 12 23:58
schestowitz I put it in BN to be documented Mar 12 23:58
twitter ah ha, Dina Bass comes through again.  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p… Mar 12 23:58
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/… Mar 12 23:58
schestowitz Bah!s Mar 12 23:59
twitter I’d read some stupid shill article pointing to bloomberg.  I should have known the source was better. Mar 12 23:59
schestowitz twitter: oldish news Mar 12 23:59
schestowitz I posted this in some places earlier Mar 12 23:59
schestowitz It’s actually not good for Vista7 Mar 12 23:59
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    Several sources suggest that rather than appease the Administrative Council by taking corrective action Battistelli and his notorious 'circle' now work hard to remove opposition from the Administrative Council, especially where this is easier a task to accomplish (politically or economically)


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