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| balzac | oiaohm: do you think anyone on the gcc team is being obstinant, stubborn, or slow to accept an obviously necessary adaptation? | Mar 15 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| balzac | loaded question... | Mar 15 00:00 |
| Balrog_ | isn't GCC extremely huge as it is? | Mar 15 00:00 |
| oiaohm | No size of mess balzac | Mar 15 00:00 |
| oiaohm | It fixing the issues in binutils and gcc without bringing the house of cards down. | Mar 15 00:00 |
| schestowitz | "Subject: Suse was good" http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story... | Mar 15 00:00 |
| balzac | I remember reading about a guy named Con Kolivas who seemed to have nice ideas for the Linux kernel, but he wasn't socially integrated and left the project. | Mar 15 00:00 |
| oiaohm | Con kolivas could not take that his theory was wrong. | Mar 15 00:01 |
| balzac | hmm, I didn't look closely enough to judge. | Mar 15 00:01 |
| oiaohm | He was so focused on the sheduler that he was missing the major cause of problem. | Mar 15 00:01 |
| oiaohm | Same thing has happened over the years with gcc and binutils. | Mar 15 00:02 |
| balzac | but I know that people in software projects can be overly-utilitarian at the expense of social etiquette. | Mar 15 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u can break down compatibility with previous versions | Mar 15 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, it costs a lot to redesign everything | Mar 15 00:02 |
| balzac | good communication is primary, so even if a guy "doesn't get" this or that, he can get it later and remain productively integrated into the project. | Mar 15 00:02 |
| oiaohm | It if was just breaking compatiblity between versions it would be simple. | Mar 15 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why everthing is "hacked" | Mar 15 00:02 |
| _Hicham_ | what do u suggest oiaohm? | Mar 15 00:03 |
| oiaohm | I attempted to fix 1 thing in binutils and broke 30 platforms. | Mar 15 00:03 |
| schestowitz | "Couple all that to the recent meltdown of the world economy, and Microsoft may find they have bitten off more than they can chew if they try to kill GNU/Linux through their deal with Novell." http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_sto... | Mar 15 00:03 |
| balzac | I would recommend the GCC team, Linux kernel team, Drupal devs have parties in which mushroom tea is offered. | Mar 15 00:03 |
| _Hicham_ | see? | Mar 15 00:03 |
| oiaohm | Due to dependancy on that struct that was in the wrong place. | Mar 15 00:03 |
| balzac | I'm going to make a software company in which we take shrooms and code amazing software. | Mar 15 00:03 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : and u still criticize gcc team? | Mar 15 00:04 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: criticism is not bad | Mar 15 00:04 |
| oiaohm | I am not exactly criticizing the current team. | Mar 15 00:04 |
| oiaohm | They have one mother of a mess. | Mar 15 00:04 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : i didnt say that critcism is bad | Mar 15 00:04 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: I didn't say you said that | Mar 15 00:04 |
| oiaohm | We need to be aware that it is a mother of mess. | Mar 15 00:05 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : legacy code should be reused | Mar 15 00:05 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: not necessarily | Mar 15 00:05 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I've seen good ideas fall by the way-side because the critic didn't add enough pleasant language around their vision. | Mar 15 00:05 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog : any piece of code is an investment | Mar 15 00:05 |
| balzac | like this guy on a GNU dev list who sounded like Simon Cowell | Mar 15 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Badly designed code is worthless _Hicham_ | Mar 15 00:06 |
| Balrog_ | what about the old Mac OS ? | Mar 15 00:06 |
| Balrog_ | well designed for its use, but very useless on more modern systems | Mar 15 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : but it works | Mar 15 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Lot of people have been coding with the design with gcc in the past with o well lets just make it work. | Mar 15 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Don't care how evilly we alter the source base. | Mar 15 00:06 |
| _Hicham_ | that what matters : "it works" | Mar 15 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Define works. | Mar 15 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | (meaning, it was very good for the 128-K ram machines it was designed for. But try scaling it to 100's of MHz systems and problems happen.) | Mar 15 00:07 |
| oiaohm | Gcc cannot optmise correctly due to the defects caused by the hacks. Uses massivly more ram and so on. | Mar 15 00:07 |
| oiaohm | Also fails randomally at times because of some of the hacks. | Mar 15 00:07 |
| _Hicham_ | because it is cross platform | Mar 15 00:07 |
| oiaohm | It very much like driving a car with a run flat tire. | Mar 15 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | and there is a huge amount of software that are build with it | Mar 15 00:08 |
| oiaohm | yes the can is driveable. | Mar 15 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | starting from the kernel | Mar 15 00:08 |
| oiaohm | can/car | Mar 15 00:08 |
| oiaohm | You should hear Linux on gcc | Mar 15 00:08 |
| oiaohm | Opps Linus | Mar 15 00:08 |
| oiaohm | he hates it worse than me. | Mar 15 00:08 |
| balzac | well, Linus seems to have a bit of an agenda | Mar 15 00:08 |
| _Hicham_ | well, he didnt propose a compiler | Mar 15 00:09 |
| balzac | carping and moaning | Mar 15 00:09 |
| balzac | barking all the time | Mar 15 00:09 |
| _Hicham_ | by the way, which compiler did he use at the time? | Mar 15 00:09 |
| oiaohm | The hacks in Linux kernel to get around gcc optmisation and exe production failures is a lot. | Mar 15 00:09 |
| oiaohm | Linus pure gcc user. | Mar 15 00:09 |
| balzac | obviously, gcc needs to keep advancing | Mar 15 00:09 |
| balzac | that is not debatable | Mar 15 00:09 |
| balzac | sounds like you're aware of a lot of possible improvements | Mar 15 00:10 |
| balzac | what obstacles do you face? | Mar 15 00:10 |
| oiaohm | legacy code in gcc | Mar 15 00:10 |
| oiaohm | and binutils. | Mar 15 00:10 |
| oiaohm | Its like playing with a active time bomb. | Mar 15 00:11 |
| balzac | oiaohm: are the gcc devs on the same page with you? | Mar 15 00:11 |
| oiaohm | Yes | Mar 15 00:11 |
| balzac | i think that may bit a bit alarmist | Mar 15 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : do u have a design proposition? | Mar 15 00:11 |
| balzac | it's software, not defusing bombs | Mar 15 00:11 |
| oiaohm | The designs to fix the faults have been done. | Mar 15 00:11 |
| *kentma1 has quit (Connection timed out) | Mar 15 00:11 | |
| _Hicham_ | have they been committed? | Mar 15 00:12 |
| balzac | oiaohm: sounds like it always comes down to social issues | Mar 15 00:12 |
| oiaohm | Its getting the hacks that are in the way of the designs working. | Mar 15 00:12 |
| balzac | oiaohm: is the legacy code keeping older architectures usable? can there be conditionals to isolate the legacy code without removing to the possible detriment of some old compatibility? | Mar 15 00:13 |
| _Hicham_ | yes, that what i was asking | Mar 15 00:13 |
| oiaohm | The hacks in the legacy code can put complete languages support by gcc non functional. | Mar 15 00:14 |
| oiaohm | If you remove them and don't recode them. | Mar 15 00:14 |
| balzac | ic | Mar 15 00:14 |
| oiaohm | binutils corrections takes out platforms. | Mar 15 00:14 |
| balzac | It sounds like a responsible code refactoring is in order, but without losing anything which is worth having. | Mar 15 00:15 |
| oiaohm | Yes its a nasty mess that should never of happened. | Mar 15 00:15 |
| balzac | too late now | Mar 15 00:15 |
| oiaohm | Thinking all the hacks are against the gcc base design documents. | Mar 15 00:15 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u should live up with | Mar 15 00:15 |
| _Hicham_ | the initial design is not always perfect | Mar 15 00:15 |
| balzac | I suppose the dev server tells the story of who made what code | Mar 15 00:16 |
| oiaohm | initial design was not perfect. | Mar 15 00:16 |
| MinceR | gn | Mar 15 00:16 |
| balzac | so inside the project, people may debate the merits of various designs and of each other's influence on the project | Mar 15 00:16 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : due to hardware and concepts at that time | Mar 15 00:16 |
| oiaohm | Just altering sections of a program without thinking about long term problems will get you into trouble. | Mar 15 00:16 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u can't alter a program for nothing | Mar 15 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | compatibility is more important | Mar 15 00:17 |
| oiaohm | Some has been like allocating memory when gcc started up for some platforms that should have been allocated when it was needed. | Mar 15 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | better write a bridge or sthg to add functionality | Mar 15 00:17 |
| oiaohm | Then other parts resuing that allocated memory. | Mar 15 00:18 |
| oiaohm | For other items other than it was alocated for in the first place. | Mar 15 00:18 |
| oiaohm | Pure basic coding rules broken. | Mar 15 00:18 |
| oiaohm | Maintainers these days forbid those kind of things. | Mar 15 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | modern coding it not as 1983 coding | Mar 15 00:19 |
| oiaohm | Early days of gcc did not have strong enough maintainers. | Mar 15 00:19 |
| oiaohm | Even in 1983 doing that kind of stuff was bad coding _Hicham_ | Mar 15 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, who was interested? | Mar 15 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | RMS only at first | Mar 15 00:19 |
| oiaohm | RMS base code was well designed. It was some of the latter maintainers where the evil sneeked in. | Mar 15 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | RMS wasn't backed by a big company like AT&T, and he done gcc | Mar 15 00:20 |
| oiaohm | Removing it now is a slow and painful process. | Mar 15 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | the hacks are necessary, wherever u go | Mar 15 00:21 |
| _Hicham_ | i seen some of windows nt and 2000 code, and it is really full of bad hacks | Mar 15 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Windows is a mess | Mar 15 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Same problem | Mar 15 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Not modular | Mar 15 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Needs redesign | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | MS promised redesign | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Around 2005 | Mar 15 00:22 |
| _Hicham_ | even if windows is maintained by a single company | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | After "development collapse" | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | They couldn't incorporate major changes | Mar 15 00:22 |
| oiaohm | 1,200 failures in the testsuite compared with mainline << link time optmisation branch failures. | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Did another XP with nicer theme/engine instead | Mar 15 00:22 |
| oiaohm | Most of those are cause purely by the old hacks. | Mar 15 00:22 |
| balzac | oiaohm: corporations can have good standards and resources, but so can academic institutions | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | It wasnt modular | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | It still isn't | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft also wanted fast boot | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Never got around to it | Mar 15 00:22 |
| oiaohm | Gcc was design to be moduler | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Just vapourware | Mar 15 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Windows core devs left | Mar 15 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Many of the new are new, cheap, overworked labour | Mar 15 00:23 |
| schestowitz | BTW | Mar 15 00:23 |
| balzac | well, I'm hoping we'll see more funding for GNU and the FSF | Mar 15 00:23 |
| oiaohm | Its just not these days. Hopefully in under a year it will return to moduler. | Mar 15 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Vista 7 is developed in Bangalore | Mar 15 00:23 |
| balzac | uh oh | Mar 15 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Not that there's anything wrong with Bangalore | Mar 15 00:23 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : ms managed to have "fast boot" by starting services after logon | Mar 15 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Office developers outnumber Win developers | Mar 15 00:23 |
| schestowitz | OT: "The space shuttle Discovery is on pace for a Sunday launch after NASA engineers repaired a leaky gas venting system, officials said Saturday." < http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/0... > | Mar 15 00:23 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : it is not gcc's fault | Mar 15 00:24 |
| _Hicham_ | it is the way of evolution | Mar 15 00:24 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: was referring to the mythical MinWin... | Mar 15 00:24 |
| _Hicham_ | and compatibility constraints | Mar 15 00:24 |
| schestowitz | gcc stays as it is while they redesign | Mar 15 00:25 |
| schestowitz | Think KDE | Mar 15 00:25 |
| schestowitz | KDE needed to be cleaned up | Mar 15 00:25 |
| oiaohm | Part of the problem _Hicham_ is people calling gcc good when its not. Ok gcc is good so I can do a tweek and don't have to fix up core ... So failure formed. | Mar 15 00:25 |
| schestowitz | KDE 3.5.x was still around | Mar 15 00:25 |
| schestowitz | 4.0 was seen as unready | Mar 15 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | GCC 4 did improve a lot | Mar 15 00:25 |
| schestowitz | But people carried on using KDE, even if just KDE 3.5.x while dvs built a new generation | Mar 15 00:25 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : redesign is not that easy | Mar 15 00:26 |
| schestowitz | Seigo et al would compare it to 747 | Mar 15 00:26 |
| oiaohm | Gcc 4 include 1 of the first alterations heading to Link time optimisation. Balrog_ | Mar 15 00:26 |
| schestowitz | Almost killed them, but now they get through as starsa | Mar 15 00:26 |
| _Hicham_ | especially for a cross platform compiler | Mar 15 00:26 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I agree it's bad when people get materialistic about the code. The license is the best part of GCC. | Mar 15 00:26 |
| balzac | code always changes, but the intent of the license still remains | Mar 15 00:26 |
| balzac | reminds me of a song lyric | Mar 15 00:26 |
| balzac | people come and people go, but the mountains still remain | Mar 15 00:27 |
| schestowitz | balzac: same issue in Linux | Mar 15 00:27 |
| schestowitz | They rewrrite many modules | Mar 15 00:27 |
| schestowitz | Stacks and all.. from scratch sometimes | Mar 15 00:27 |
| PeterFA | Anyways, one thing that's very important is completeness in Linux so that you can adopt it no matter what. | Mar 15 00:27 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel had the best of it. | Mar 15 00:27 |
| schestowitz | Devs can take away anything they wrote | Mar 15 00:27 |
| balzac | yep | Mar 15 00:27 |
| balzac | oiaohm: here's the solution | Mar 15 00:27 |
| oiaohm | Call the big kernel lock. | Mar 15 00:27 |
| schestowitz | So the selfishness/possessiveness is no missue | Mar 15 00:27 |
| balzac | there's another thing more important than code - people | Mar 15 00:27 |
| PeterFA | I need a list of all the projects needed for an infinitely large IT infrastructure. | Mar 15 00:27 |
| schestowitz | That's why many people dive in Debian | Mar 15 00:27 |
| oiaohm | Big kernel lock is fine. When it was killing performance. | Mar 15 00:27 |
| PeterFA | You guys know of such a list? | Mar 15 00:27 |
| balzac | new people with new ideas need to value the people who've been there, and the people who've been there need to welcome new people with fresh ideas. | Mar 15 00:28 |
| schestowitz | They know the feeling of working really hard on code at word... and not being permtted to even take a copy for memories. | Mar 15 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Or for use... or rave.. or downloads, eyc. | Mar 15 00:28 |
| schestowitz | This neglects one of the characteristic of human activity | Mar 15 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Like creatitivity | Mar 15 00:28 |
| balzac | the internal development environment should be competetive yet friendly | Mar 15 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Like people who work at mills vs /owning/ the mills | Mar 15 00:28 |
| schestowitz | Being one modern social issue.. | Mar 15 00:28 |
| oiaohm | People need to take the point of view with open source its never perfect. Best it is is ok. It always can be better. Good makes you forget about a programs flaws. | Mar 15 00:29 |
| balzac | corporate influence should be checked in favor of the general well-being and success of the project. | Mar 15 00:29 |
| balzac | The GNU GPL says "free software", not "open source". GCC is not open source. | Mar 15 00:29 |
| oiaohm | Same has happened with windows. | Mar 15 00:29 |
| oiaohm | People disgrard lot of Windows flaws. | Mar 15 00:30 |
| schestowitz | balzac: yes, important to distinguish there. | Mar 15 00:30 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: they have investor pressure | Mar 15 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Watch what they did with Vista | Mar 15 00:30 |
| schestowitz | They knew it was unfit | Mar 15 00:30 |
| schestowitz | They could take their time and leave XP out there | Mar 15 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Instead they destroryed trust | Mar 15 00:31 |
| schestowitz | They are in many ways destoryed now | Mar 15 00:31 |
| balzac | I'd like to see more funding for GNU so that influence from corporations can be deflected more easily | Mar 15 00:31 |
| schestowitz | They have only a couple of valuable eggs in the basket | Mar 15 00:31 |
| oiaohm | Vista is a case of over promising then trying to do it. | Mar 15 00:31 |
| schestowitz | For the other one (office) they committed crimes (c.f. OOXML | Mar 15 00:31 |
| balzac | internal funding would help offset the temptation of developers to hack GCC for the benefit of one company or another | Mar 15 00:31 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4.0 made the same mistake of over promising and missing the fine details. | Mar 15 00:31 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: KDE4 is OK now | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | 4.2.1 | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | People like it | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | I rarely find negative reviews | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | None I can think of ATM | Mar 15 00:32 |
| oiaohm | Exactly they fixed the fine details. | Mar 15 00:32 |
| balzac | not saying it's happening, but this issue seems prevalent in quite a few important projects - that third parties try to influence development for themselves in the manner lobbyists try to influence elected officials. | Mar 15 00:32 |
| oiaohm | Windows 7 is still forgetting the fine details. | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: Vista 7 | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | Bugfix | Mar 15 00:32 |
| schestowitz | Biggest 'bug': name | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | They could call it Mojave | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | Slim down, change name, change GUI | Mar 15 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Same with kde 4.2.1 is really a bug fix. | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | Oh! | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | And bribe bloggers | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | Many of them | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | Control perceptions | Mar 15 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Difference is kde 4.2.1 covered the key problems. | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | Beause in reality it's the same pig under another name | Mar 15 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Windows 7 still has major problems. | Mar 15 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Its more like a KDE 4.1 | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | They realy on only enthusiasts with high-end boxes trying it | Mar 15 00:33 |
| schestowitz | Not the housewife with a single-core Celeron. | Mar 15 00:34 |
| oiaohm | Open source and Windows defects line up from time to time. | Mar 15 00:34 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: like Debian | Mar 15 00:34 |
| schestowitz | Add features | Mar 15 00:34 |
| schestowitz | Then polish for twice the time or whatever | Mar 15 00:34 |
| schestowitz | Must find tradeoff point | Mar 15 00:34 |
| schestowitz | KDE4 was a huge leap | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | WinFS too high a leap for Windows too | Mar 15 00:35 |
| oiaohm | WinFS were is it. | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | They DIDN'T even TRY it in VIssta7 | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | What does that tell you? | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | They added nothing MAJOR. | Mar 15 00:35 |
| balzac | microsoft isn't the only company to try to corrupt organizations which ought to be neutral (ISO, for example) | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | They can't | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | They are scared | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | balzac: it's not just ISO | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | It's many more | Mar 15 00:35 |
| schestowitz | Another example tomorrow i BN | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | Open University | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | CompTIA | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | Heh. Even the BBC | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | The BBC is crushed | Mar 15 00:36 |
| oiaohm | When Linux gets btrfs MS will have some trouble. | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | The reputation is bad in the Apple circles too | Mar 15 00:36 |
| balzac | I think Torvald's attention to keeping people from discussing politics obfuscates all of the political jockeying which happens inside the Linus Kernel project. | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | The manager of the BBC Internet thingie left a comment in BN earlier | Mar 15 00:36 |
| balzac | not all of it | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | Not for the first time | Mar 15 00:36 |
| schestowitz | The BBC doesn't like what I've said about them since the deals with MS | Mar 15 00:36 |
| balzac | schestowitz: agreed | Mar 15 00:36 |
| *ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p2005-ipad01yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 15 00:37 | |
| schestowitz | balzac: cause it turns off his sponsors | Mar 15 00:37 |
| schestowitz | Imagine a group of programmers who talk about evil corporations | Mar 15 00:37 |
| balzac | the only way to "exorcise the demons" of corroption is to allow people to speak out against corrupting influences | Mar 15 00:37 |
| schestowitz | Against lobbying and such... | Mar 15 00:37 |
| schestowitz | IBM and Intel would finf it damaging,a turnoff. | Mar 15 00:38 |
| balzac | well, if you're going to allow intel, invidia, or some other corporation to get special favor from the kernel project, at least you can be upfront about it. | Mar 15 00:38 |
| balzac | just make it official | Mar 15 00:38 |
| oiaohm | Linus avoids doing anyone a favour. | Mar 15 00:38 |
| balzac | yes, we're going to favor this company's implementation of sooper-dooper threading tech | Mar 15 00:38 |
| schestowitz | ushimitsudoki, tessier: "Nokia, in order to take to the next level the Maemo platform - the open source software that powers mobile devices such as the N810 Internet Tablet - is now looking for people." < http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/03/0... > | Mar 15 00:39 |
| oiaohm | You code has to be up to standard or its not getting in. | Mar 15 00:39 |
| balzac | they gave us some funding, their competitor did not | Mar 15 00:39 |
| balzac | better be more generous next time, brand-b | Mar 15 00:39 |
| balzac | oiaohm: but seriously, it's not a frigging meritocracy | Mar 15 00:39 |
| oiaohm | Nokia does not want to have to pay anyone for there OS. | Mar 15 00:39 |
| balzac | it's business | Mar 15 00:39 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: Nokia is weird | Mar 15 00:40 |
| schestowitz | Also with Symbian at hand | Mar 15 00:40 |
| schestowitz | it's like they compete vs themselves | Mar 15 00:40 |
| balzac | RMS is not Jesus, and of course there's plenty of business which happens inside these projects | Mar 15 00:40 |
| schestowitz | They are baffled | Mar 15 00:40 |
| oiaohm | Not really schestowitz | Mar 15 00:40 |
| schestowitz | They lose share (Symbian) | Mar 15 00:40 |
| oiaohm | Nokia started the Linux project before they got Symbian. | Mar 15 00:41 |
| balzac | so, people should just not act as if they're fooling anyone when they endorse this tech over that | Mar 15 00:41 |
| oiaohm | To untie themselfs from Symbian. | Mar 15 00:41 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: which Linux project specifically? | Mar 15 00:41 |
| schestowitz | Maemo? | Mar 15 00:41 |
| schestowitz | Nokia owned most of Symbian | Mar 15 00:41 |
| oiaohm | Then they got Symbian cheep. | Mar 15 00:41 |
| schestowitz | Like 70% | Mar 15 00:41 |
| balzac | if there's a business reason for it, rather than purely the technical merits of the idea | Mar 15 00:41 |
| schestowitz | They call it Symbian Foundation now | Mar 15 00:42 |
| balzac | people should not be expected to be absolutely pure either | Mar 15 00:42 |
| schestowitz | To hide the fact that it's just Nokia | Mar 15 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Like "Linux Foundatiion" | Mar 15 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Nokia you have to think about them as a hardware company. | Mar 15 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Come and help (for free) this 'foundation' | Mar 15 00:42 |
| schestowitz | More of an IBM front | Mar 15 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Among others | Mar 15 00:42 |
| oiaohm | What they are doing is not wiered. | Mar 15 00:42 |
| PeterFA | The estimated cost to redevelop the most recent kernel versions would be at $1.14 billion USD. http://is.gd/nnY6 | Mar 15 00:42 |
| balzac | yeah | Mar 15 00:42 |
| schestowitz | But with a conceited Jim Zemlin on top | Mar 15 00:42 |
| balzac | I can't help but feel a little cynical about the way words like "community" are thrown around | Mar 15 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Nokia interest in software is to sell more phones. | Mar 15 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Not to make profit from software. | Mar 15 00:43 |
| schestowitz | balzac: I avoid the word community | Mar 15 00:43 |
| oiaohm | Really this kind of competior is MS worst nightmare. | Mar 15 00:43 |
| balzac | I wasn't born yesterday and I'm no chump. | Mar 15 00:43 |
| schestowitz | Reminds me of kumbaya and communism | Mar 15 00:43 |
| schestowitz | Used against us | Mar 15 00:43 |
| schestowitz | I avoid "community" like I avoid "IP" or "oiracy" | Mar 15 00:43 |
| schestowitz | I increasingly avoid "open source" too | Mar 15 00:44 |
| oiaohm | Nokia release Qt under LGPL as well when they took that company over. | Mar 15 00:44 |
| balzac | I know what community is and I'm not going to have a sense of belonging substituted for the money I should be getting. | Mar 15 00:44 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: Microsoft wanted to try the same | Mar 15 00:44 |
| schestowitz | By buying RIM | Mar 15 00:44 |
| schestowitz | But it would alienate those who license WM | Mar 15 00:44 |
| oiaohm | If you look at all software companys Nokia has aquired almost all of them have gone open source. | Mar 15 00:44 |
| balzac | nor am I going to accept a sense of belonging in place of the freedoms which should be respected | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | balzac: as Hans B said, there are many community | Mar 15 00:45 |
| balzac | no Hovo Sapient is going to drain the power from my ego | Mar 15 00:45 |
| oiaohm | Nokia 100 percent lack of interest in being a software company shows through. | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | Not "'the' community" | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | There are many factions with similar goals | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | Like FSF | Mar 15 00:45 |
| *seller_liar has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Mar 15 00:45 | |
| schestowitz | BN has its own views too | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | Which some disagree with | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | LinuxToday is one | Mar 15 00:45 |
| schestowitz | I don't like LXer | Mar 15 00:46 |
| schestowitz | LinuxToday is supportive of BN | Mar 15 00:46 |
| oiaohm | If nokia moved into the desktop market it would gt interesting. | Mar 15 00:46 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw too | Mar 15 00:46 |
| oiaohm | gt/get | Mar 15 00:46 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw doesn't like the lxer community either | Mar 15 00:46 |
| schestowitz | PJ anyway... | Mar 15 00:46 |
| schestowitz | But Brian Proffitt she likes (LT) | Mar 15 00:46 |
| *schestowitz wonders if he's still subscribed to BN | Mar 15 00:47 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: but Nokia hardly sells software | Mar 15 00:47 |
| schestowitz | Since like.. forever. | Mar 15 00:47 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : have u ever added debian unstable repo to ubuntu? | Mar 15 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Nokia sells hardware that is what would make it interesting. | Mar 15 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Apple without the hardware lock in in the desktop market would cause some interseting effects. | Mar 15 00:48 |
| schestowitz | http://www.paolo-mantovani.org/... | Mar 15 00:49 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: not sure | Mar 15 00:50 |
| schestowitz | It would affect the 'experience' | Mar 15 00:50 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: I haven't tried that | Mar 15 00:50 |
| schestowitz | They can police lots of things | Mar 15 00:50 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: I was considering converting my Ubuntu installations to debian by switching repos | Mar 15 00:50 |
| balzac | it depends on how long the ubuntu ops keep my username banned from #ubuntu | Mar 15 00:51 |
| balzac | I told them, i might make an end-run around them, effectively pulling rank if I can pull it off | Mar 15 00:51 |
| oiaohm | How do you get banned from #ubuntu | Mar 15 00:51 |
| oiaohm | I thought that was impossiable. | Mar 15 00:52 |
| balzac | well, I complained that #ubuntu-offtopic wasn't a very inviting name | Mar 15 00:52 |
| schestowitz | ROTFLMAO http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/200... Wow! Microsoft's 'google killer' looks good... wow! Look at the........ background photos! How can google defeat these graphics? | Mar 15 00:52 |
| balzac | I prefer the sound of #fedora-social, for example | Mar 15 00:52 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : did u try migrating to debian by changing repos? | Mar 15 00:52 |
| balzac | Also, I said some irreverant things, like I say here about personal interest inside the project - not about anyone in particular | Mar 15 00:52 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: not yet | Mar 15 00:53 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I spent some time in #ubuntu-ops | Mar 15 00:53 |
| schestowitz | #covert-ops | Mar 15 00:53 |
| balzac | I used Dont_Tase_Me_Bro as my username | Mar 15 00:53 |
| balzac | to me, it's fun | Mar 15 00:53 |
| oiaohm | Ok those look really bad schestowitz | Mar 15 00:54 |
| balzac | they're just not accustomed to dealing a fully-intact ego, or a sense of humor | Mar 15 00:54 |
| oiaohm | Look at the dragon text its bluring test out. | Mar 15 00:54 |
| balzac | it's the corporate influence at work in all the major project channels on freendoe | Mar 15 00:54 |
| balzac | freenode | Mar 15 00:54 |
| balzac | surpress your ego, contribute code, sing along with they hymns | Mar 15 00:55 |
| balzac | know your place, watch your mouth | Mar 15 00:55 |
| balzac | and maybe you'll get some crumbs eventually | Mar 15 00:55 |
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| balzac | that's corporate culture for you | Mar 15 00:55 |
| schestowitz | @trmanco : why Digg is pretty much screwed, and the likes of it too: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/... | Mar 15 00:55 |
| balzac | but I've been cultivating an executive ego, so I don't eat the gruel | Mar 15 00:56 |
| balzac | It would probably be the same if I were using open solaris or fedora | Mar 15 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : go to debian channel | Mar 15 00:57 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: I'll be using Debian more in the future | Mar 15 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu packages are weird | Mar 15 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | for example | Mar 15 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | mplayer package is two years outdated | Mar 15 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | even in jaunty | Mar 15 00:58 |
| balzac | I'll continue with Ubuntu as well, but I think I'm a bit older than the average Ubuntu user. Debian is probably closer to my age group. | Mar 15 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Mar 15 00:58 |
| schestowitz | Is it really related to age? | Mar 15 00:58 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: that's the kind of thing I'm talking about - people jockeying for position in the repos. | Mar 15 00:58 |
| balzac | schestowitz: to some extent | Mar 15 00:59 |
| balzac | I'm 33. I'm too old for Digg. | Mar 15 00:59 |
| schestowitz | Any numbers? | Mar 15 00:59 |
| schestowitz | Or just superstition? | Mar 15 00:59 |
| balzac | more of a slashdot guy, in terms of age. | Mar 15 00:59 |
| _Hicham_ | you know balzac, u r one of the people that i like the most in this channel :D | Mar 15 00:59 |
| _Hicham_ | great sense of humor | Mar 15 00:59 |
| _Hicham_ | ! | Mar 15 00:59 |
| balzac | thanks _Hicham_ | Mar 15 01:00 |
| schestowitz | Google Won't Remove Pages About You < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/... > | Mar 15 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | actually im adding debian unstable repo to ubuntu | Mar 15 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | i dont if it will work | Mar 15 01:00 |
| balzac | But don't be upset if I eventually get into Gentoo | Mar 15 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | but sometimes i got sick of seeing everything ok | Mar 15 01:00 |
| balzac | jk | Mar 15 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : Gentoo is also great | Mar 15 01:01 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : Gentoo is the distro of old people | Mar 15 01:01 |
| balzac | I'm not saying I don't appreciate Ubuntu though | Mar 15 01:01 |
| _Hicham_ | old bearded people | Mar 15 01:01 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : do u have a beard? | Mar 15 01:01 |
| balzac | I'm actually going to have to say my choice in distro isn't going to very much related to the ops. | Mar 15 01:01 |
| balzac | goatee | Mar 15 01:01 |
| balzac | I'm not the least bit worked up over the issue, personally. | Mar 15 01:02 |
| schestowitz | It's possible to draw pictures of users for each distro | Mar 15 01:02 |
| schestowitz | Is there already such a thing? | Mar 15 01:02 |
| schestowitz | Not the one with woman superheroes... | Mar 15 01:02 |
| balzac | I was happy to start to get to know the Ubuntu bureaucracy because ultimately I'd like to meet Mark Shuttleworth in person. | Mar 15 01:02 |
| _Hicham_ | distrowatch | Mar 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | Or the humour 'posters' | Mar 15 01:03 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : do u live in the US? | Mar 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | balzac: what for? | Mar 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | Society glamorises normal people | Mar 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | It's part of an imposition system | Mar 15 01:03 |
| schestowitz | Make a hero, then use him/her to project | Mar 15 01:04 |
| balzac | Roy, I try to meet people of significance | Mar 15 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Behaviour, thought, attitude. etc. | Mar 15 01:04 |
| schestowitz | E.g. for smoking | Mar 15 01:04 |
| balzac | I'm an aspiring entrepreneur. | Mar 15 01:04 |
| schestowitz | balzac: what for? | Mar 15 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Status? | Mar 15 01:04 |
| balzac | yep | Mar 15 01:04 |
| schestowitz | Oh, so you look for opportunities with them | Mar 15 01:04 |
| schestowitz | OK, that would make more sense. | Mar 15 01:04 |
| balzac | i already told you i proactively cultivate my ego | Mar 15 01:04 |
| balzac | yeah, well having an open channel of communication is good | Mar 15 01:05 |
| schestowitz | *sigh* | Mar 15 01:05 |
| schestowitz | Yes.. | Mar 15 01:05 |
| schestowitz | One of our #bn people writes to Woz | Mar 15 01:05 |
| balzac | having the OPs get out of my way, like bouncers getting out of my way at a club isn't bad | Mar 15 01:05 |
| balzac | i don't take social status seriously at all. that's why i'm not ashamed to seek to have mine acknowledged as being very high. | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | OBAMAA is no change: http://blog.wired.com/27bstrok... | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | Watch the image | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | RMS writes: "Obama continues using Bush's bullshit excuse to keep ACTA away from all chance of democracy." | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | Typical | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | Corporate fascism | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | "Stay the F out"mocracy | Mar 15 01:06 |
| schestowitz | de-mock-racy | Mar 15 01:07 |
| schestowitz | That's the stuff I was gonna write about tomorrow | Mar 15 01:07 |
| schestowitz | I have lots of dirt about ACTA | Mar 15 01:07 |
| schestowitz | If Obama keeps it secret, then he proves to be a corporate tool, sorry | Mar 15 01:09 |
| balzac | I have to look up ACTA | Mar 15 01:10 |
| balzac | ok | Mar 15 01:10 |
| balzac | I saw a chinese version of "Kung Fu Panda" | Mar 15 01:10 |
| balzac | I agree with the idea that people are smart enough to discriminate between real and counterfeit | Mar 15 01:10 |
| balzac | most of the time | Mar 15 01:11 |
| balzac | counterfeit money - I can tell the difference | Mar 15 01:11 |
| balzac | apparel | Mar 15 01:11 |
| balzac | etc | Mar 15 01:11 |
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| balzac | Roy, Obama needs somebody like you to fight your way past his throng and give him the heads up | Mar 15 01:12 |
| balzac | he has to be "served" in the legal sense before you can suppose that his mistakes are not based on ignorance | Mar 15 01:13 |
| schestowitz | http://linuxmednews.com/1236701457 "The OSHIP project is looking for a few more mentors; should it be selected for GSoC 2009" | Mar 15 01:13 |
| schestowitz | balzac: he's lobbies by Biden&Goons | Mar 15 01:14 |
| schestowitz | Still, people like Lessig should prod him | Mar 15 01:14 |
| schestowitz | ACTA is NOT news | Mar 15 01:14 |
| schestowitz | It's not as though he hasn't had time to think about it | Mar 15 01:15 |
| balzac | Obama isn't jesus either and can't be held responsible for everything | Mar 15 01:15 |
| schestowitz | It emerged in August of last year in Wikileaks, maybe April. | Mar 15 01:15 |
| balzac | well, he hasn't gotten around to clearing the way for Bush to be investigated | Mar 15 01:15 |
| schestowitz | I wrote like 25 posts about it in BN and maybe 50 in other places | Mar 15 01:15 |
| schestowitz | It's igusting | Mar 15 01:15 |
| schestowitz | It's rotten, it's dictatorship | Mar 15 01:15 |
| balzac | I'm more concerned with Bush going to prison than ACTA | Mar 15 01:15 |
| schestowitz | And I have a list of the culrits | Mar 15 01:15 |
| schestowitz | I'll post culprits list tomorrow | Mar 15 01:16 |
| balzac | Obama hasn't even pulled the military out of Iraq yet | Mar 15 01:16 |
| schestowitz | balzac: that's the "give him another chance" defense. | Mar 15 01:16 |
| schestowitz | I've heard it too many times | Mar 15 01:16 |
| schestowitz | He never expressed intent to change much | Mar 15 01:16 |
| balzac | Roy, I'm not saying that. | Mar 15 01:16 |
| schestowitz | "Change" was the motto (or variations of change) for BOTH camps | Mar 15 01:16 |
| balzac | I'm just saying, first Bush ought to go to prison. | Mar 15 01:16 |
| schestowitz | It's a PR exercise | Mar 15 01:16 |
| balzac | Occupation of Iraq should end, same with Afghanistan. | Mar 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | The PR for Obama won an award | Mar 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | They deceive the public better | Mar 15 01:17 |
| balzac | campaign finance reform, media reform | Mar 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | Obama would go nowhere near vewis like those of Lessig, Paul, Nader, Chomsky, etc. | Mar 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | He seemed like a tool | Mar 15 01:17 |
| schestowitz | And sorry, he *is* showing many times that he just goes with the flow | Mar 15 01:18 |
| balzac | Well, he was with what's-his-name from the Weather Underground | Mar 15 01:18 |
| schestowitz | balzac: bull | Mar 15 01:18 |
| balzac | what? | Mar 15 01:18 |
| schestowitz | Obama stays in iraq | Mar 15 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | Obama will change nothing | Mar 15 01:18 |
| schestowitz | and a short while after entering office he bombed targets and took pride in it | Mar 15 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | even though his moto was " We Need Change" | Mar 15 01:18 |
| balzac | Well, if he's not fully out of Iraq by the next election, I will not vote for him again. | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | Well, he will have made his $$ by then | Mar 15 01:19 |
| balzac | If Bush still walks free by the time Obama's 8 years are finished, I won't vote for another Democrat in my lifetime. | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | Along with his camp | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | Lessig hits the nail on the head | Mar 15 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : he can't get out of Iraq that easy | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | They give favour | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | *s | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | They cash in ater | Mar 15 01:19 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: I'm aware it's not easy to change things | Mar 15 01:19 |
| schestowitz | Washington is a money/favour brothel | Mar 15 01:20 |
| schestowitz | Not just a guncrime capital | Mar 15 01:20 |
| balzac | But I have a theory - the repugnicans aren't going to be able to resist polarizing the political landscape | Mar 15 01:20 |
| balzac | so we'll see a fight | Mar 15 01:20 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* repugnicans.. new to em | Mar 15 01:20 |
| balzac | and then we'll see what happens once the honeymoon is over | Mar 15 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | the honeymoon is over | Mar 15 01:21 |
| schestowitz | Long ago | Mar 15 01:21 |
| balzac | if Obama thinks he can be like Clinton, some repukes will try to pants him | Mar 15 01:21 |
| schestowitz | http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ | Mar 15 01:21 |
| balzac | Roy, the honeymoon ended with liberals before it even began. But when will the repugs hit below the belt? | Mar 15 01:21 |
| balzac | Then we may get to see a pissed off Barack Obama | Mar 15 01:22 |
| balzac | The repigs will do something to make action necessary | Mar 15 01:22 |
| balzac | then maybe the old culprits we're accustomed to despising will be swept out to the margins of society | Mar 15 01:23 |
| balzac | Clinton thought he could be bi-partisan too | Mar 15 01:23 |
| balzac | then they pantsed him in public | Mar 15 01:23 |
| balzac | so, let them try to pants Obama, and then maybe Bush will land in the clinker | Mar 15 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | I don't think it would be ethical to leave Iraq immediately and let it fall apart | Mar 15 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | "we" messed it up in the first place | Mar 15 01:24 |
| balzac | Balrog_: trust me, Iraq is still going to exist, even without Americans patrolling and shooting around. | Mar 15 01:25 |
| balzac | Balrog_: it would be the most ethical thing to do. Immediate withdrawal. | Mar 15 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | yes, though there may be civil war and lots of lives lost | Mar 15 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | that's your opinion; I respect it | Mar 15 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | though not necessarily support it | Mar 15 01:25 |
| balzac | Moqtada al Sadr would probably become president of Iraq, but honestly, that's not for Americans to decide. | Mar 15 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | the war should never have been started | Mar 15 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Iraq and Afghanistan Usa placed there goverments in power in the first place. | Mar 15 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Both were left overs of the cold war | Mar 15 01:26 |
| balzac | the US needs to get out quickly. Maybe a arabic/kurdish security deal can be arranged as the occupation is ended | Mar 15 01:27 |
| schestowitz | Coool! Opera support Ogg out of the box | Mar 15 01:28 |
| schestowitz | Experimental builds. | Mar 15 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Problem is USA soliders are too incompetent to be a holding force of a country. | Mar 15 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Lot of other countries are also incompetent at it. | Mar 15 01:28 |
| Balrog_ | oiaohm: lately they have been paying former Iraqi insurgents to do it | Mar 15 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Use a thief to catch a thief | Mar 15 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | heh | Mar 15 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | but their people trust them | Mar 15 01:29 |
| balzac | oiaohm: our military is not incompetent, the problem is that they don't belong in Iraq. | Mar 15 01:29 |
| oiaohm | They are incompetent balzac | Mar 15 01:30 |
| balzac | some are, some are not | Mar 15 01:30 |
| balzac | but no military is competent to occupy the land of another ethnic group and religion | Mar 15 01:30 |
| oiaohm | They have never won a war game against Australian soliders even when they have been given 10 to 1 numbers | Mar 15 01:30 |
| balzac | ah yes, the feared Australian military! | Mar 15 01:31 |
| oiaohm | They don't know how to correctly build road blocks correctly | Mar 15 01:31 |
| balzac | nations all around the world tremble when the name "Australia" is heard. | Mar 15 01:31 |
| balzac | jk | Mar 15 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Best road block is so simple. | Mar 15 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Snipper and remote camera. | Mar 15 01:31 |
| balzac | oiaohm: it doesn't matter how competent a military force is, a guerilla insurgency will never end until they get pulled out from where they ought not to be. | Mar 15 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Solider never gets close enough to be blown up. | Mar 15 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Australian soliders have first hand experencing beating guerillas from east timor. | Mar 15 01:32 |
| Balrog_ | I hear that this new strategy (getting former insurgents to provide security) is somewhat working | Mar 15 01:32 |
| oiaohm | That strategy is same used in east timor Balrog_ | Mar 15 01:33 |
| balzac | if by "working" you mean, people are still dying violently every day, then yes. | Mar 15 01:34 |
| oiaohm | balzac our soliders have trained for years with 1 team being insurgency and another being a city protector. | Mar 15 01:34 |
| balzac | there is a very basic thing to take into account | Mar 15 01:34 |
| oiaohm | They got as insane as hiding in engine compartments of trucks to sneak in. | Mar 15 01:34 |
| balzac | don't put armed men of a non-native ethnicity in land belonging to another ethnicity for any significant length of time nor for any petty reason | Mar 15 01:34 |
| balzac | oiaohm: don't sniff glue my friend | Mar 15 01:35 |
| oiaohm | balzac training here has been way different. | Mar 15 01:35 |
| balzac | doesn't matter | Mar 15 01:35 |
| oiaohm | It does matter balzac | Mar 15 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Soliders not trained correctly end up dead lot more often. | Mar 15 01:36 |
| balzac | actually, australia needs to change their tune on how the gov relates to native australians | Mar 15 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Also end up fueling a insergency problem. | Mar 15 01:36 |
| balzac | same as the us, natives sovereignty needs to be acknowledged | Mar 15 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Because each one they kill backs up that the insergency is working. | Mar 15 01:36 |
| balzac | oiaohm: you're thinking about how to make an ethnically-hostile military occupation work? | Mar 15 01:37 |
| balzac | why? | Mar 15 01:37 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact balzac Australia is huge if invaided our forcus will have to turn insurgency. | Mar 15 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Its the old case send a theif to catch a theif. | Mar 15 01:39 |
| oiaohm | They know how they would do so they cover that. | Mar 15 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Problem is even importing there near by countries don't stop ethnically-hostile happening. | Mar 15 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Its not like everyone in east timor liked the Australian forces. | Mar 15 01:40 |
| balzac | I can see being involved in an insurgency against an occupying force, or a frontal-attack on another force, but I sure wouldn't want to be involved in putting down an insurgency. | Mar 15 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Australia has a few times balzac in our own area. | Mar 15 01:42 |
| balzac | It doesn't seem like the the occupation of a foreign land is ever right. | Mar 15 01:42 |
| schestowitz | Obama appointee on leave after FBI raid, arrests < http://www.wtop.com/?nid=596&a... > | Mar 15 01:42 |
| oiaohm | USA has major tatical errors for doing it balzac | Mar 15 01:42 |
| balzac | anyway, I've been working at a snails pace | Mar 15 01:42 |
| balzac | too much interesting conversation | Mar 15 01:43 |
| oiaohm | They try putting up an appearance of force. | Mar 15 01:43 |
| balzac | oiaohm: the big mistake was occupying Iraq in the first place. | Mar 15 01:43 |
| oiaohm | That is like putting up a huge target sign. | Mar 15 01:43 |
| balzac | I was against it before it began. Now I want to see Bush go to prison for life. | Mar 15 01:43 |
| oiaohm | To fight insurgency you want your forces as invisable as possiable. | Mar 15 01:43 |
| oiaohm | So the insurgence walks into traps not you walking into insurgent traps. | Mar 15 01:44 |
| balzac | I don't intend to be fighting any insurgencies. | Mar 15 01:44 |
| oiaohm | Being invisable as possiable reduces the fight. | Mar 15 01:44 |
| oiaohm | Part of being invisable is training locals to replace you and to provide groups to blend in with. | Mar 15 01:45 |
| balzac | yeah, like the lone ranger with his trusty side-kick, tanto | Mar 15 01:46 |
| oiaohm | USA soliders from the get go. Got everything wrong in iraq. | Mar 15 01:46 |
| balzac | oiaohm: you need to stop thinking of this drivel | Mar 15 01:46 |
| balzac | go to a strip club, find a good 'sheila' | Mar 15 01:46 |
| balzac | you're obviously caught in an un-fruitful line of thinking | Mar 15 01:46 |
| balzac | i'm going into NYC to get high and maybe have a lapdance or two | Mar 15 01:47 |
| oiaohm | USA had the idea that a big show of force would just give them victory. | Mar 15 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : USA is wrong | Mar 15 01:47 |
| oiaohm | If they had studied smaller scalle version Australia had taken on before iraq they would have know that is wrong. | Mar 15 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | it is just like Vietnam | Mar 15 01:48 |
| balzac | oiaohm, _Hicham_, let me remind you that I am American, and I was against Bush from the start. I wanted him impeached immediately. | Mar 15 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Just like Vietnam really. Australian had 1 major battle with the natives then mostly got left alone. | Mar 15 01:48 |
| balzac | so you can say this or that about Bush, or the Pentagon, or the US Gov, but the USA as a whole is not subject to the judgement which befalls the entities I mentioned first. | Mar 15 01:49 |
| oiaohm | USA soliders have been since the time of Vietnam soft picking. | Mar 15 01:49 |
| oiaohm | Purely due to there training. | Mar 15 01:49 |
| balzac | anyway, your last prime minister or president was quite a tool | Mar 15 01:50 |
| balzac | a bloviating buffoon if I ever saw one. | Mar 15 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | i cant imagine the amount of money they spent | Mar 15 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Prime minster we are not past political idiots | Mar 15 01:50 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I'm not responsible for training US soldiers | Mar 15 01:50 |
| balzac | it's not really a problem of mine to worry about | Mar 15 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Becides Iraq war all our ships have come home more heavly loaded with gear than when they left to iraq. | Mar 15 01:51 |
| balzac | but you maybe should be concerned with entertaining yourself in such a way as to forget war-games and American military catastrophes | Mar 15 01:51 |
| balzac | it's saturday and i'm about to go out | Mar 15 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Ie Australia did not go into the iraq war for nothing. | Mar 15 01:52 |
| balzac | oiaohm: try some shrooms | Mar 15 01:52 |
| balzac | that might help with what ails you | Mar 15 01:52 |
| balzac | and a nice 'sheila' | Mar 15 01:52 |
| _Hicham_ | balzac : have a fun night | Mar 15 01:52 |
| balzac | suppose you go up to a woman in australia and call her "sheila". | Mar 15 01:52 |
| oiaohm | balzac if you have a true cilval war in you country your soliders are really not setup for it. | Mar 15 01:52 |
| balzac | who would she take that? | Mar 15 01:53 |
| balzac | _Hicham_: you to | Mar 15 01:53 |
| balzac | oiaohm: really, i'm not the least bit worried about that. | Mar 15 01:53 |
| balzac | ttyl | Mar 15 01:53 |
| oiaohm | USA also copies old stupidity. The money paying people for entering there houses. Same thing was done in another country and it started a mafa. | Mar 15 01:54 |
| balzac | oiaohm: check out a band called Pendulum from Australia | Mar 15 01:57 |
| balzac | "Pendulum" - intense rock & roll mixed with DnB | Mar 15 01:57 |
| balzac | if you can catch them live, get high on shrooms at the performance | Mar 15 01:58 |
| balzac | thank me later | Mar 15 01:58 |
| balzac | ttyl | Mar 15 01:58 |
| oiaohm | I should have also point out one of the reasons USA soliders are so useless at times is they are in field high on drugs. | Mar 15 01:59 |
| *amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04 | Mar 15 02:00 | |
| oiaohm | Being kept away by stimulants increase your risk of shooting someone you should not. Also causes problems. | Mar 15 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Something USA people don't want to hear is that there forces are useless. They have become very much like the britsh in world war two. Too much time spent believing in force not stratgic planing. | Mar 15 02:02 |
| schestowitz | Diebold joke (cartoon): http://ars.userfriendly.org/c... | Mar 15 02:03 |
| schestowitz | New Open Source Project Monitors Flows of Media < http://www.bespacific.com/m... > | Mar 15 02:03 |
| schestowitz | gn | Mar 15 02:04 |
| oiaohm | http://www.tomshardware.com/pictur... $16000 dollar computer system what it gets you. | Mar 15 02:17 |
| hello | Mar 15 02:26 | |
| NYT asks where the AIG bailout money went, besides bonuses. | Mar 15 02:27 | |
| http://www.nytimes.com/2009/0... | Mar 15 02:27 | |
| LOL Dibold, except the damage has been done already. | Mar 15 02:28 | |
| Eight years ago, talk about "stolen elections" seemed incredible, yet a substantial body of evidence has been discovered that all but makes the case beyond doubt. | Mar 15 02:30 | |
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| _Hicham_ | I just installed iceweasel on Ubuntu | Mar 15 03:29 |
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| _Hicham_ | Roy : are u still here? | Mar 15 03:52 |
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| amarsh04 | don't think he is, will reboot now | Mar 15 03:58 |
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| _Hicham_ | everybody is sleeping O:-) | Mar 15 04:08 |
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| sleep, sleep. | Mar 15 04:14 | |
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| oiaohm | Hmm amarsh04_ you appear to be having connection problems. | Mar 15 07:02 |
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| schestowitz | Hey | Mar 15 08:16 |
| schestowitz | http://www.cnet.com/8301-13846_1-10196471-6... (Jim Cramer's full explanation of stock market manipulation (video)) | Mar 15 08:18 |
| amarsh04 | hi schestowitz, am setting a record on the slowest pc to write a dvd writh | Mar 15 08:28 |
| oiaohm | 255 mhz pent amarsh04? | Mar 15 08:51 |
| oiaohm | Or are you smaller. | Mar 15 08:52 |
| schestowitz | Whoa | Mar 15 08:52 |
| schestowitz | Well, people did burn CDs on 486 33MHz... | Mar 15 08:52 |
| oiaohm | Yes buffer underrun protection becomes important. | Mar 15 08:52 |
| oiaohm | Cd x1 slower data speed schestowitz | Mar 15 08:53 |
| oiaohm | You could do that on a 286. | Mar 15 08:53 |
| oiaohm | Yes level 1 insanity burning a cd on a 286 | Mar 15 08:53 |
| oiaohm | In theory you could still burn a dvd with a 286 | Mar 15 08:54 |
| oiaohm | But you would be pushing buffer under run protection to its limit. | Mar 15 08:55 |
| schestowitz | Make it RT | Mar 15 08:55 |
| schestowitz | Heh. on 286s.. | Mar 15 08:55 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, CDs are being phased out... eventually. | Mar 15 08:55 |
| schestowitz | Network speeds, SD, SSD, USB..... | Mar 15 08:56 |
| amarsh04 | 266 PII | Mar 15 08:57 |
| oiaohm | 286 flat will not be able to transfer data fast enough schestowitz | Mar 15 08:57 |
| oiaohm | Even running real time. | Mar 15 08:57 |
| oiaohm | To burn a DVD at x1 | Mar 15 08:57 |
| oiaohm | Yes you will be pushing the drive under run protection. | Mar 15 08:58 |
| oiaohm | 255 mhz pent was used because I had no option it was the only machine still running amarsh04 | Mar 15 08:58 |
| amarsh04 | disc is kept spinning, then actual burning is only done from on-drive buffer | Mar 15 08:58 |
| amarsh04 | all normal programs still running, too | Mar 15 08:59 |
| oiaohm | 255 mhz pent was a Linux firewall box. | Mar 15 08:59 |
| oiaohm | I really hate when windows networks get badly virus infected. | Mar 15 08:59 |
| oiaohm | And they only have dvd media on hand. | Mar 15 09:00 |
| amarsh04 | I ran a pentium 225 mmx for a little while with 192 MiB of EDO RAM | Mar 15 09:00 |
| oiaohm | Still have one with that configuration. | Mar 15 09:00 |
| oiaohm | I use to have a pent 75 before it gave up the ghost as well. | Mar 15 09:00 |
| amarsh04 | 384 MiB of RAM in this machine | Mar 15 09:00 |
| oiaohm | Insane would be dvd burning from a c64 | Mar 15 09:02 |
| oiaohm | Yes its possiable but completely insane. | Mar 15 09:02 |
| amarsh04 | one person I knew had a scsi hdd on his c64 | Mar 15 09:02 |
| oiaohm | Yep | Mar 15 09:02 |
| oiaohm | scsi dvd burnner with scsi hdd | Mar 15 09:03 |
| schestowitz | zoobab01: Do you know which troll they pass it to? http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/2009... (Burst.com sells patent for video technology) | Mar 15 09:03 |
| oiaohm | Nice bit of stress | Mar 15 09:03 |
| amarsh04 | create the iso file and have a smart program do dma between two devices on the same bus | Mar 15 09:04 |
| oiaohm | Yep the only way its going to work with a c64 amarsh04 | Mar 15 09:04 |
| oiaohm | And having everyone scratching there head how. | Mar 15 09:04 |
| amarsh04 | these patent robber barons give trolls a bad name | Mar 15 09:05 |
| amarsh04 | it's a sign of good programming that things still work even if very slowly on underpowered hardwaer | Mar 15 09:06 |
| oiaohm | Its sign of loop hole using. | Mar 15 09:07 |
| oiaohm | Not always good programming. Some of the code from loop hole users is nasty. | Mar 15 09:07 |
| amarsh04 | dvd drive has written 650 MB in 80 minutes | Mar 15 09:07 |
| oiaohm | Yep complete disk about 8 hours. | Mar 15 09:08 |
| oiaohm | For some stupid reason it will verifty faster than it will burn the disk. | Mar 15 09:08 |
| amarsh04 | I mean that for example, time-out and underrun errors are generally avoided | Mar 15 09:09 |
| amarsh04 | verify is only reading source and destination and comparing rather than worrying about keeping the on-drive buffer as full as possible | Mar 15 09:10 |
| schestowitz | Black fsck software, a company created by MS employee, keeps spreading FOSS FUD to sell its proprietary 'solution': http://www.linuxnewstoday.org/linux-news-... | Mar 15 09:10 |
| oiaohm | There is a way to do a block to block verify in scsi amarsh04 | Mar 15 09:12 |
| oiaohm | Let them schestowitz | Mar 15 09:14 |
| amarsh04 | I do have a scsi disk in this machine but it's only 4 GiB (DPT 2044W controller) | Mar 15 09:14 |
| oiaohm | They are not winning the game long term by doing it. | Mar 15 09:14 |
| *amarsh04 still has to send a request for source code to the version of busybox in his adsl2+ router | Mar 15 09:15 | |
| oiaohm | MS starting to burn there bridges to Novell show that MS is not as healthy a they would have everyone think. | Mar 15 09:15 |
| oiaohm | What is your router amarsh04 | Mar 15 09:15 |
| oiaohm | Some have there source code published on line amarsh04 | Mar 15 09:16 |
| oiaohm | Hmm news is being slow schestowitz | Mar 15 09:17 |
| amarsh04 | opennetworks iconnect 625 - no source online or on cd, but emails from a company employee on busybox mailing list | Mar 15 09:17 |
| amarsh04 | will send the company copies of email with a written request, and cc software freedom law center | Mar 15 09:19 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yes, the sooner the better | Mar 15 09:19 |
| schestowitz | At least we know where we stand | Mar 15 09:19 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: which news is slow? | Mar 15 09:20 |
| schestowitz | The news has been slow since last year (new in general, not just FOSS) | Mar 15 09:20 |
| schestowitz | *news | Mar 15 09:20 |
| oiaohm | For middle of this month there has been very few new products announcements. | Mar 15 09:21 |
| schestowitz | For the past 6 months | Mar 15 09:27 |
| schestowitz | Nothing time specific | Mar 15 09:27 |
| schestowitz | More products are being canceled, I think (than announced) | Mar 15 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Yep | Mar 15 09:29 |
| oiaohm | We seam to be heading into a product drought. | Mar 15 09:29 |
| oiaohm | Now that is going to leave znews and others almost nothing to talk about. | Mar 15 09:29 |
| amarsh04 | maybe we'll see a reduction in planned obsolescence | Mar 15 09:30 |
| oiaohm | There is one problem here devices don't last for ever. | Mar 15 09:31 |
| schestowitz | znews? | Mar 15 09:32 |
| oiaohm | I missed a d | Mar 15 09:35 |
| oiaohm | opps | Mar 15 09:35 |
| oiaohm | zdnet | Mar 15 09:35 |
| oiaohm | No news will basically be fud central. | Mar 15 09:36 |
| amarsh04 | that link to black duck software spouting off shows that the author didn't bother to state that the problem is worse for closed source software than for Free and open source software | Mar 15 09:39 |
| oiaohm | Open source has its problems. | Mar 15 09:40 |
| oiaohm | So does windows. I am so sick of windows users say its numbers of them make them infected. | Mar 15 09:40 |
| oiaohm | Lot of Windows problem are basic rules of secuirty broken. | Mar 15 09:41 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: exactly. See this discussion from last night (comments): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/14/bbc... | Mar 15 09:42 |
| schestowitz | http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/20... (I’m sorry but Dreamweaver is dying) | Mar 15 09:43 |
| amarsh04 | I might go out for a while and leave growisofs to finish its work | Mar 15 09:43 |
| schestowitz | So suddenly people realise that *shucks* their s/w is closed and going nowhere | Mar 15 09:43 |
| oiaohm | Dreamweaver has been a good product. | Mar 15 09:43 |
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| schestowitz | ."ACT are pretty active advocates of all that makes FOSS difficult or impossible, so it's amazing to see them calling IBM's bluff over open source and FOSS advocates defending them. Now Microsoft has the same strategy as IBM maybe it's time to reconsider who are friends and who are just here to drink the free beer?" ttp://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/friday_link_roundup_on_march | Mar 15 09:45 |
| oiaohm | Sun IBM mud throwing. | Mar 15 09:48 |
| oiaohm | It will never end any time soon. | Mar 15 09:48 |
| schestowitz | Cisco expected to present servers Monday http://www.topix.net/content/ap/200... | Mar 15 09:50 |
| oiaohm | Cisco should be smart enought be a new entry to the blade market a live. | Mar 15 09:52 |
| oiaohm | It will shake IBM and HP up a bit. | Mar 15 09:52 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php?t... I no longer edit that page. It's too abrasive. :-) | Mar 15 10:05 |
| schestowitz | Later this year I intend to process the remainder of Comes < http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/inde... > and then establish some form of mapping of influence so as to help people understand how names and tactics/companies relate to one another (e.g. Microsoft->IV, EDGI->Waggener, VMware->IDC). I don't know how to visualise it and properly connect this with evidence. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index... | Mar 15 10:05 |
| schestowitz | tch is decent. | Mar 15 10:05 |
| schestowitz | http://www.sourcewatch.org/i... that is | Mar 15 10:06 |
| schestowitz | Someone says: "There must be others who have documented their receiving attacks. Again, it's worth trying for an Ask Slashdot, since Bruce Perens shutdown Technocrat -- (after going off the deep end and using it as a forum to promote inappropriate social agendas, IMHO, that's what killed it.)" | Mar 15 10:06 |
| schestowitz | "Many have from time to time brought up going after MS for racketeering. However, much of it only amounts to only brief mumbling and grumbling. How would a class-action style effort be started? RICO and other laws are on the books in the US." | Mar 15 10:06 |
| schestowitz | "The situation, as posted in my previous blog post, explaining Why the US ecomony has failed, is now playing out deeping, as I watch C-SPAN." http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=52 | Mar 15 10:12 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft shills... ""Formally btw. Mike Sax is said to be the president and founder of ACT but the chain of command is clear. I have an interesting video of a Mike Sax intervention somewhere. Back then I had the impression that he wasn't even a software developer because of the way he talked."" | Mar 15 10:22 |
| schestowitz | "I always had the impression Sax software was just a fake company set up for the US antitrust case. Sax software formally sells some VB Controls. I don't know where it is but I have seen a video of Zuck from some open document debate in the States hearing where he says he is no lobbyist." | Mar 15 10:23 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009... | Mar 15 10:23 |
| MinceR | geekings | Mar 15 10:27 |
| schestowitz | http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2... "The wife and I are celebrating the anniversary of Linux, by watching "RevolutionOS", streaming from Netflix to our TiVo." | Mar 15 10:33 |
| trmanco | http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2009/03/w3... | Mar 15 10:37 |
| amarsh04 | I still haven't seen "RevolutionOS" | Mar 15 10:39 |
| oiaohm | http://www.w3schools.com/brow... Fairly much slow but steddy grouth. | Mar 15 10:39 |
| trmanco | FF is beating the crap out of IE | Mar 15 10:40 |
| trmanco | http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/b... | Mar 15 10:40 |
| trmanco | has about 3% more | Mar 15 10:41 |
| schestowitz | Intro to V4L2 "This articles describes the Linux's V4L2 (Video for Linux 2) interface, along with the first steps toward developing a device driver that uses the interface. It is based on Linux 2.6.28, and may not apply to other kernel versions." http://linuxdevices.com/articles/... | Mar 15 10:42 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: you can watch it on Google Video | Mar 15 10:42 |
| trmanco | http://singularity.com/images/... | Mar 15 10:42 |
| trmanco | human brain powered by Linux | Mar 15 10:42 |
| trmanco | ? | Mar 15 10:42 |
| amarsh04 | ok thanks schestowitz | Mar 15 10:43 |
| schestowitz | 10 Extreme Biases You Must Aquire When Switching to Linux < http://www.network0.org/2009.../ > | Mar 15 10:47 |
| oiaohm | That super computer model is kinda flawed. | Mar 15 10:48 |
| oiaohm | Human brain is compact compared to super computers. That does make a difference. | Mar 15 10:49 |
| schestowitz | It works differently. | Mar 15 10:49 |
| schestowitz | Think about comparing human metabolism to a car engine. | Mar 15 10:50 |
| schestowitz | Localised versus networked | Mar 15 10:50 |
| schestowitz | It would be funny if our brain has some little MMU at the centre.. :-) with fans and all | Mar 15 10:51 |
| schestowitz | Cool. The OSI blog links to BN | Mar 15 10:51 |
| oiaohm | Human brain liquid cooling. | Mar 15 10:52 |
| oiaohm | None of that primitive air stuff. | Mar 15 10:52 |
| oiaohm | Boy I don't fit into those 10 biases at all. | Mar 15 10:56 |
| oiaohm | I use BSD debian and redhat. | Mar 15 10:56 |
| schestowitz | http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/03/13/nov... "I dont worry about Novell distributing as much as them infecting Gnome through their heavy use of mono which is now an integral part of applications like Evolution." | Mar 15 11:09 |
| schestowitz | "All of Novell’s excemptions dont apply to other other developers/distros so in a way, when Microsoft comes bearing down on the stolen IP in Mono, and they will, it wont be because of the code Novell developers will have contributed it but the ones who are not covered by the patent." | Mar 15 11:09 |
| Eruaran | I think Gnome's future is not rosy if left to the likes of Novell and Miguel de Icaza's "We love Redmond" fan club. | Mar 15 11:11 |
| Eruaran | Developers and distributions need to make a clear stand. | Mar 15 11:12 |
| Eruaran | But I haven't seen that from Gnome devs. | Mar 15 11:12 |
| schestowitz | The Linux 1.0 message: http://www.tuxradar.com/content/li... | Mar 15 11:14 |
| schestowitz | A Real Stimulus: Use Open Source Software < http://brgulker.wordpress.com/2009/03/12... > | Mar 15 11:17 |
| amarsh04 | 4 hours down, one hour to go in burning a dvd | Mar 15 11:49 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Mar 15 11:55 |
| schestowitz | Imagine using the same storage with old Iomega tapes | Mar 15 11:56 |
| amarsh04 | or floppies | Mar 15 12:02 |
| oiaohm | I do have a auto floppy loader and unloader around here somewhere. | Mar 15 12:06 |
| amarsh04 | verifying dvd now... | Mar 15 12:10 |
| amarsh04 | system load has gone way down... growisofs was running nice -20 | Mar 15 12:11 |
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| amarsh04 | k3b just let out its success bugling | Mar 15 12:28 |
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| Eruaran | I changed K3B's 'success' sound to the ping of an oven timer. | Mar 15 12:36 |
| amarsh04 | hehehe Eruaran | Mar 15 12:39 |
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| schestowitz | Wot?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File... | Mar 15 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Isn't that polluting the seas? Putting green dye in rivers? | Mar 15 12:59 |
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| oiaohm | Could be natural schestowitz | Mar 15 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Ie harmless dye to water ways. Same used in sea rescues. | Mar 15 13:14 |
| oiaohm | If its that one it breaks down in 24 hours. | Mar 15 13:14 |
| Eruaran | Food colouring | Mar 15 13:15 |
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| oiaohm | There are still side effects to what they are doing. It blocks light from going down through the water very much like a flood. | Mar 15 13:19 |
