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03.19.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 18th, 2009 – Part 3

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:58 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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_Hicham_ I didn’t know that there is a lot of Ubuntu haters Mar 18 21:53
trmanco _Hicham_, they had to grab market share somehow Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz MinceR: Apple doesn’t do HTML Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz KDE did (KHTML) Mar 18 21:53
MinceR so how did they campaign against ogg theora in html5? Mar 18 21:53
_Hicham_ trmanco : but since FF2, the plugin don’t work Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz Apple does flashy widgets and ihtml Mar 18 21:53
trmanco until they finally stabilized with there own technologies Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz Oh! and they have patents there inside the W3cc… Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz But recent controversy btw Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz They poison the standard with landmines Mar 18 21:54
_Hicham_ MinceR : ogg theora is supported natively in FF3.1 Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz Like Rambus Mar 18 21:54
trmanco _Hicham_, what plugin? Mar 18 21:54
MinceR _Hicham_: doesn’t make it a w3c standard though Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz It should have been that Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz Nokalle don’t count Mar 18 21:55
_Hicham_ trmanco : Mozilla ActiveX plugin Mar 18 21:55
trmanco ha that crap Mar 18 21:55
schestowitz Poetice justice, in code Mar 18 21:55
schestowitz *Poetic Mar 18 21:55
trmanco good thing it doesn’t work, was it official anyway? Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz Mozilla detoxicated itself from Windows Snyder Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz MS employee Mar 18 21:56
MinceR except for the “justice” part Mar 18 21:56
trmanco code is poetry Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz No longer will Mozilla people ‘praise’ Microsoft… e.g. for security Mar 18 21:56
trmanco but it really depends on who writes this type of “poetry” Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz *Window, not Windows (Freudian slip) Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz Linus Torvalds: “Talk is cheap. Show me the code.” Mar 18 21:57
trmanco hehe, computer scientist quotes :-P Mar 18 21:57
schestowitz Who is Alexander Larsson? http://blogs.gnome.org/alex… Mar 18 21:58
trmanco I wonder what it takes to be one Mar 18 21:58
schestowitz Linux File Systems: Ext4. Btrfs. Do we understand what we need? <  http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/2009/03/17… > Mar 18 21:58
trmanco this might be the future jaunty background -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incomi… Mar 18 22:00
MinceR but what will karmic look like? Mar 18 22:06
MinceR they said it won’t be brown Mar 18 22:06
MinceR (finally) Mar 18 22:06
schestowitz trmanco: COLA’s been quiet for the past 2 days. I’ll post some news Mar 18 22:07
schestowitz MinceR: yes, maybe not by default. WHo knows… Mar 18 22:07
Balrog__ about the Mozilla ActiveX plugin: Mar 18 22:08
Balrog__ << This plug-in is not part of the Mozilla distribution and even if it were it would be disabled by default. It is extremely, hell-freezing-overly, unlikely that Mozilla is ever going to support ActiveX by default. This plug-in is designed for custom, legacy and intranet solutions and nothing else. Mar 18 22:08
MinceR they could call the new theme Inhuman ;) Mar 18 22:08
schestowitz Brown is part of the Ubuntu identity/brand. Else it’s JAG (Just another GNOME) Mar 18 22:08
MinceR perhaps it’s time to switch ubuntu with kubuntu and rename ubuntu to gubuntu and kubuntu to ubuntu? :> Mar 18 22:08
schestowitz MinceR: should call it “OhMan!” Mar 18 22:09
MinceR or Superhuman Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz That’d be MS style Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz Ultimate Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz Supra Ultra.. Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz “Professional” Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz Implicitly: Apple is not professiona Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz Ubuntu is not “ultimate” Mar 18 22:09
MinceR we know that Mar 18 22:09
MinceR neither is m$, though Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz as in “not people-ready” Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz MinceR: not true Mar 18 22:09
MinceR Ready for the Not-People? Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz Windows is very business read… for crackers Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz “Letsa get down to bizniz!!” Mar 18 22:10
MinceR windows is professional in the way a whore is. Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz It’s part of the MS ecosystem Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz Wait until crackers attack Linux Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz To keep Windows hosts out there for pickings Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz Microsoft: the Amsterdamn[sic] of OSes Mar 18 22:11
schestowitz (not with extra Cr4ack (not the drug” Mar 18 22:12
schestowitz ^typos. Mar 18 22:12
_Hicham_ I read an anecdote in which they gathered a bunch of talented crackers to do a comparison Mar 18 22:16
_Hicham_ how much will a Windows system resist Mar 18 22:17
MinceR that’s a pretty degrading thing to say of Amsterdam. Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_ and how much a Linux system will Mar 18 22:17
MinceR there was an event with windows vs linux vs macos Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_ well, a freshly installed Windows can’t resist a second Mar 18 22:17
MinceR windows was broken first, macos second, linux never Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_ while Linux (Debian)  has taken two month to be broken in Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_ and guess what ? Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_ Windows was equipped with a firewall Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_ while Debian was not Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_ i am looking for that story Mar 18 22:18
schestowitz MinceR: Mac first Mar 18 22:21
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 18 22:21
schestowitz Ubuntu/Mac/Windows security challenge last year Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz SAFARI~1.EXE did it Mar 18 22:22
MinceR oh. Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz on the Mac Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz [no EXE.. just joking] Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz .Mac Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz iSaf Mar 18 22:22
MinceR ‘look how elite we are, we can rip KHTML off and say it’s ours’ Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz And add GUI Mar 18 22:23
schestowitz With HCI stuff Mar 18 22:23
*PetoKraus (n=pk@cpc1-broo6-0-0-cust1009.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell Mar 18 22:23
MinceR oh, yes, forgot the ‘add a retarded, unusable gui’ part Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz I told you apple like foss Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz Free code Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz Apple likes freedom (of cost) Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz There are one-man project that do the same Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz slap in some gecko, use gtk/qt/motif/whataveer Mar 18 22:25
schestowitz Chrome too Mar 18 22:25
schestowitz Uses KHTML Mar 18 22:25
schestowitz The ripped off version Mar 18 22:25
MinceR yes, they like it in the same way m$ does Mar 18 22:25
MinceR and they use it in the same way too Mar 18 22:25
Balrog__ well, WebKit is foss … not so with MS products Mar 18 22:26
MinceR osx isn’t foss though Mar 18 22:26
MinceR and neither is safari Mar 18 22:26
Balrog__ no (os x) it isn’t and it probably won’t be anytime soon. Mar 18 22:26
schestowitz MinceR: Apple is open (about it) Mar 18 22:27
MinceR screwing around the API of the engine does no contribution make Mar 18 22:27
schestowitz Microsoft uses BSD and keeps quiet Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__ they are working on a GTK ui for WebKit Mar 18 22:27
MinceR apple are? Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__ the webkit people Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__ not sure if it’s apple Mar 18 22:27
MinceR so it’s probably not apple Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__ also, the kernel is foss (if you consider APSL to be foss) Mar 18 22:27
MinceR so it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__ I’d assume Apple employees are helping Mar 18 22:28
MinceR i’d assume apple employees are trying to do more damage, just like they’ve ever done Mar 18 22:28
MinceR steal the code, lock it down, add DRM, sell it for tons of $$$ and be smug about how clever you are Mar 18 22:28
Balrog__ MinceR: why do you blast Apple so much and not MS or the other more damaging ones? Mar 18 22:28
_Hicham_ Apple employees didn’t help even KDE developers Mar 18 22:28
MinceR Balrog__: oh, i do blast m$ too Mar 18 22:29
_Hicham_ the creators of KHTML Mar 18 22:29
Balrog__ _Hicham_: that did get set straight after a while Mar 18 22:29
MinceR Balrog__: it’s just that apple cultists are so blinded by the RDF they don’t notice when apple is doing the exact same things m$ is Mar 18 22:29
Balrog__ MinceR: this whole ‘rdf’ thing is overblown Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__ yes, there are some that are blinded Mar 18 22:30
MinceR that’s what i’d expect an apple fanboy to say Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__ but a large majority (of technical people) aren’t Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__ go to a rumor site and look at the forums Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__ there are _a lot_ of complaints Mar 18 22:30
MinceR and yet when they talk to a non-cultist, all we hear is “it just works” and it’s so great and we’re so stupid because we don’t use apple Mar 18 22:31
Balrog__ MinceR: hackintosh will never ‘just work’ Mar 18 22:31
MinceR and they keep telling me their jesusPhone is the second coming Mar 18 22:31
MinceR even if i tell them a couple of fundamental ways it fails Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__ who are these people? Mar 18 22:32
MinceR apple fanboys Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__ MinceR: ‘fundamental’ ways? Mar 18 22:32
MinceR they’re everywhere Mar 18 22:32
MinceR fundamental things one would expect from a smartphone? Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__ no keyboard? there are problems with keyboards. Mar 18 22:32
MinceR you know, the kind of phone you can get for a quarter of the price of a jesusPhone? Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__ multitasking? battery life <<< Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__ MinceR: I haven’t seen a similar phone for $50 Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__ USD Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__ the G1 is more expensive, and doesn’t even have the 8GB flash Mar 18 22:33
MinceR that reminds me of a story when apple cut a complete, fully developed feature from a sw they released because jobs thought it would confuse some users Mar 18 22:33
MinceR see, that kind of contempt is what makes me really hate apple Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__ MinceR: how is that ‘contempt’? Mar 18 22:34
MinceR they practically tell their users “you’re idiots and you’ll buy any crap from us” Mar 18 22:34
MinceR and they do Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__ MinceR: what about featuritis? I don’t think they want that in their products Mar 18 22:34
MinceR windows might treat the user like a complete idiot, but it isn’t in the same league apple products are in Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__ (many Linux apps have it, many many more Windows apps do) Mar 18 22:34
MinceR when they don’t tell you it’s 65536 colors because ‘you don’t need to know’ Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__ Isn’t ‘thousands’ good enough? I mean you can go look it up Mar 18 22:35
MinceR ah, the myth of the feature set that’s just enough Mar 18 22:35
MinceR i prefer to be told what it is Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__ heard of crappy japanese phones? Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__ (with too many features) Mar 18 22:35
MinceR there’s no such thing as “too many features” Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__ yes there is Mar 18 22:35
MinceR do you honestly expect to use every single feature of everything you buy? Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ if they don’t work properly or are overly complicated, it’s too many Mar 18 22:36
MinceR do you honestly expect everyone else’s needs to match yours exactly? Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented features Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ MinceR: not my point Mar 18 22:36
MinceR do you honestly expect your own needs to be constant? Mar 18 22:36
MinceR apple certainly does Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ <<Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented features Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ not MY needs Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ *working* and I mean working well Mar 18 22:36
MinceR so your needs are unimportant? Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__ my needs are important, but if the features that are supposed to meet my needs don’t work half the time (or are overly complicated) then they’re useless Mar 18 22:37
MinceR that’s an entirely different issue from “too many features” Mar 18 22:37
MinceR it’s called bad quality Mar 18 22:37
Balrog__ one thing Apple is doing is making sure all features have high quality before shipping Mar 18 22:38
MinceR one thing apple is failing at, i see Mar 18 22:38
Balrog__ MinceR: explain how they’re failing Mar 18 22:38
Balrog__ at making sure /included/ features work well Mar 18 22:39
MinceR or do you consider bricking a mac on an os update “high quality”? Mar 18 22:39
Balrog__ which update bricked macs? Mar 18 22:39
Balrog__ ?? Mar 18 22:40
MinceR http://tech.slashdot.org/article… Mar 18 22:40
MinceR this one Mar 18 22:40
Balrog__ If you’re talking about the iphone, the community figured out how to unbrick them Mar 18 22:40
Balrog__ MinceR: that has happened to me with Windows AND Linux Mar 18 22:41
MinceR another feature that works flawlessly: http://go2xserve.com/ Mar 18 22:41
Balrog__ so far not with mac Mar 18 22:41
MinceR wow, the community figured out, that’s great! Mar 18 22:41
MinceR is that what passes for “just works” around your people? Mar 18 22:41
Balrog__ the community did the jailbreak / unlock in the first place Mar 18 22:41
MinceR see, that’s the RDF everyone else is talking about Mar 18 22:41
MinceR yes, because they had to Mar 18 22:41
MinceR because it’s a locked down piece of shit Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__ therefore they did the unbricking Mar 18 22:42
MinceR everything from apple is a locked down piece of shit Mar 18 22:42
MinceR and when i mention that, the fanboy says “but you can jailbreak it!” Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__ there were some unlocks that did nasty things to the baseband back then Mar 18 22:42
MinceR they don’t care about warranty Mar 18 22:42
MinceR or if it breaks something else Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__ so I wouldn’t be surprised if updating such an unlocked device would break the baseband Mar 18 22:42
MinceR in the mind of the apple fanboy, if it has an apple logo in it, it’s perfect and it just works Mar 18 22:42
schestowitz Mac have been bricked more than once Mar 18 22:42
schestowitz I saw incidents in 2005 Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__ MinceR: what other than the baseband could be bricked? Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz CLI-only on Mac boot Mar 18 22:43
MinceR Balrog__: do i care what could be bricked in that overpriced paperweight? Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__ schestowitz: there wer some problems with the imac G3 back in 2000 or so Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz But “mac rumours” sites won’t talk about *that& Mar 18 22:43
MinceR if it’s bricked, it’s bricked. Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__ There’s rom recovery mode Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz Yes Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz Recovery CDs Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__ aka DFU mode (in ipod/iphone) Mar 18 22:44
schestowitz Like global rest in Palm IS Mar 18 22:44
schestowitz *OS Mar 18 22:44
schestowitz Hard reset Mar 18 22:44
MinceR and if you’ll follow the link, you’ll see that it’s about desktop macs, not the jesusPhone. Mar 18 22:44
Balrog__ << Device Failsafe Utility Mar 18 22:44
MinceR btw i have a palm that bricked itself Mar 18 22:44
Balrog__ Yes, resetting the PMU is considered standard procedure for dealing with problems Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__ (on the Mac) Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__ if it’s hardware Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__ explain about the Palm. I have one but it’s unstable Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__ many times more unstable than an iphone/ipod touch Mar 18 22:45
MinceR one month after the warranty expired it decided it won’t boot anymore Mar 18 22:45
MinceR it’s frozen at the boot screen, flashing a bar at the top of the screen Mar 18 22:45
MinceR hard reset doesn’t help Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__ :( Mar 18 22:46
MinceR oh, and it took my data with itself, of course Mar 18 22:46
Balrog__ that’s nasty. Mar 18 22:46
Balrog__ About the iphone …. even if it’s bricked, only the cell / wifi stuff stops working. The rest is still ok Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__ Basically the baseband is wrecked. Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__ (this is only the 1st-gen) Mar 18 22:47
MinceR does it boot that way? Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__ No, it boots the main CPU. Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__ The CPU talks to the baseband using AT commands Mar 18 22:48
MinceR and the os is ok with the baseband not responding? Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__ (think modems) Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__ yes. Mar 18 22:48
MinceR btw the main cpu part could be bricked too if the memory it boots from can be altered Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__ but at the lowest level, it boots from *ROM* Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__ and in that ROM, there’s recovery mode Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__ that’s why Apple couldn’t patch the jailbreak Mar 18 22:49
MinceR and where does it take the data to recover? Mar 18 22:49
Balrog__ via USB Mar 18 22:49
MinceR ic Mar 18 22:49
Balrog__ << Unlike the main s5l8900 CPU, the S-Gold can actually be bricked Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__ http://wikee.iphwn.org/sgold_bootrom:brick Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__ remember this is the *baseband* Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__ (which controls all radio comm) Mar 18 22:50
MinceR so you’d end up with a lame pda Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__ when bricked, “Your cellphone and Edge and WiFi can be lost forever.” Mar 18 22:51
MinceR instead of the lame phone you begin with Mar 18 22:51
MinceR very comforting Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__ yes, a lame PDA, without wifi or bluetooth Mar 18 22:51
MinceR remember, this is a danger you take just to be able to install apps you want Mar 18 22:51
MinceR “just works” indeed. Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__ now the 3G is very different….its baseband uses many levels of sigchecking and verification Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__ the unlock for it is temporary … it runs as a daemon that gets loaded each time the device is booted Mar 18 22:52
MinceR just the thing i’m dreaming of running on a mobile device Mar 18 22:52
MinceR it doesn’t drain the battery does it? :> Mar 18 22:52
Balrog__ no, because once it runs it doesn’t have to keep running Mar 18 22:53
MinceR doesn’t sound like a daemon to me Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__ once the BB is running ‘unlocked’ code, you’re ok Mar 18 22:53
MinceR though somehow my qtek 9100 uses advanced technology that makes such things unnecessary Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__ the daemon part makes sure it runs again if you go into airplane mode and back out Mar 18 22:53
MinceR it wasn’t locked to any provider when i bought it Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__ talk to AT&T or the providers :/ Mar 18 22:53
MinceR i wonder when apple will gain access to such wonderful technology! Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__ there ARE iphones is Europe and Asia that have unlocked iPhones Mar 18 22:54
MinceR no, talk to steve jobs Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__ be prepared to pay though Mar 18 22:54
MinceR ask him why he’s so focused on screwing his own customers Mar 18 22:54
MinceR via lockdown and DRM Mar 18 22:54
MinceR and ask yourself why you still bend over and smile while you get this treatment Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__ MinceR: another problem: the radio in the iphone follows worldwide 3G standards. Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__ T-Mobile chose not to follow them Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__ therefore, iphone + T-mobile in US == no-3G Mar 18 22:54
MinceR well, t-mobile (t-* in general) is all shades of crap here too Mar 18 22:55
Balrog__ so what choice do you have? T-mobile and ATT Mar 18 22:55
Balrog__ (with an unlocked device) Mar 18 22:56
MinceR they invented “unlimited internet access that has a limit” here in hungary Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__ at least in the US it’s like that Mar 18 22:56
MinceR here we have t-mobile, pannon (telenor) and vodafone Mar 18 22:56
MinceR i’m using pannon Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__ source code to iphone 3g unlock: http://xs1.iphwn.org/releases/ye… Mar 18 22:56
MinceR i started with vodafone but i got tired of their crap service and didn’t want to pay for overpriced gprs Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__ MinceR: here we also have Verizon and Sprint Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__ but those are CDMA services Mar 18 22:57
Balrog__ no GSM Mar 18 22:57
MinceR and t-mobile was quite obviously overpriced to start with Mar 18 22:57
Balrog__ here they’re all overpriced Mar 18 22:57
MinceR they’re probably all overpriced Mar 18 22:57
MinceR but t-mobile beats the others at that game here Mar 18 22:57
PeterFA Cell phone service… Mar 18 22:57
PeterFA Ah, the telecoms. Mar 18 22:57
PeterFA If I ever need a bona fide necessary evil, telecom is it. Mar 18 22:58
MinceR making a deal with a telco shows just how much apple cares about their customers Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__ no, it shows how broken the law in the US is Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__ everyone does it in the US Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__ not only Apple Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__ the RAZR was like that … with Verizon I beliece Mar 18 22:59
MinceR apple did it worldwide Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__ s/c/v Mar 18 22:59
MinceR iirc until they got slapped on the wrist by authorities in europe Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__ MinceR: also what about (a) visual voicemail and (b) subsidies? Mar 18 22:59
MinceR i don’t know what “visual voicemail” is supposed to be Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__ in Europe there were various problems Mar 18 22:59
MinceR as for subsidies, the telco can keep their damn money, if i’m buying a phone i’m going to own it Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__ basically you see a list of your voicemail messages and you can click on one to listen to it Mar 18 23:00
Balrog__ Then do you wish to pay $599? Mar 18 23:00
MinceR none of the 3 phones i’ve bought so far were locked to a provider Mar 18 23:00
MinceR i pay as much as it costs Mar 18 23:00
MinceR if it’s subsidized, you still pay the cost Mar 18 23:00
MinceR but you also get screwed in the process Mar 18 23:00
Balrog__ no, you get locked in for 2 years Mar 18 23:00
Balrog__ which may equal screwed, depending on the situation Mar 18 23:01
MinceR i don’t use voicemail — if they want to send me a message, there’s a perfectly functional SMS for that Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__ SMS is a ripoff Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__ $1500 per megabyte Mar 18 23:01
MinceR voicemail is a ripoff too Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__ at least here Mar 18 23:01
MinceR i need to pay to listen to it Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__ voicemail is regular rates Mar 18 23:01
MinceR i can receive text messages free of charge Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__ MinceR: Not true in the USA. Mar 18 23:02
trmanco meh Mar 18 23:02
MinceR well, the usa sucks Mar 18 23:02
trmanco Tuz? Mar 18 23:02
trmanco lol Mar 18 23:02
Balrog__ texts are 10-25 cents both ways Mar 18 23:02
Balrog__ (each way, actually) Mar 18 23:02
MinceR also, voicemail takes more time to use because it’s speech Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__ true, though with visual voicemail you can delete a message you don’t want to listen to Mar 18 23:03
MinceR (even if it isn’t the horrible wait-fest an answering machine playback is) Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__ I prefer texts, but then again, many people have landlines here also Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__ which means NO SMS Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__ (from a landline) Mar 18 23:03
MinceR they could get ISDN, though :> Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__ do you know how EXPENSIVE ISDN is???? Mar 18 23:04
MinceR i do Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__ more than I want to think of paying Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__ :[ Mar 18 23:04
MinceR (though i wonder how they still justify it) Mar 18 23:04
MinceR (not the 30-line version, obviously) Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__ even the 1-line version costs too much Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__ regular basic phone is $15 per month here Mar 18 23:05
MinceR btw you can send text messages from the internet too Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__ yes, not everyone has that or knows how to do it Mar 18 23:05
MinceR if you use a wap push test page, it can even be free :> Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__ via AIM it’s free, but doesn’t work to my phone Mar 18 23:06
Balrog__ via email it works Mar 18 23:06
MinceR :) Mar 18 23:06
Balrog__ but then again, there are many people who don’t have those / don’t want to go through the trouble of doing so Mar 18 23:06
MinceR well, i don’t want to go through the trouble of using voicemail Mar 18 23:07
MinceR also, they can wait until i become available — it rarely takes long :> Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__ I prefer not to, but I still get them occasionally Mar 18 23:07
MinceR first thing i did was to disable voicemail Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__ what about MMS? Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__ do you use it? Mar 18 23:08
MinceR nope Mar 18 23:08
Balrog__ ok. Mar 18 23:08
MinceR maybe i’ve received one in my life Mar 18 23:08
MinceR but generally i’d rather use email for that Mar 18 23:08
Balrog__ that’s another thing that apple left out of the iphone (until 3.0) Mar 18 23:08
MinceR i know Mar 18 23:08
MinceR it’s going to be fun seeing the fanboys drool to see “new” features everyone else has had for decades Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__ MinceR: I’ve seen those features from ‘everyone else’ Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__ Apple seems to be better at implementing them Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__ we’ll see the side-by-side comparisons :) Mar 18 23:10
Balrog__ the developers are happy, that’s for sure Mar 18 23:10
MinceR i doubt they can win at even an arbitrarily vague scenario you’re trying to set up Mar 18 23:10
MinceR well, the developers whose apps happened to be accepted, that is Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__ they say 96% of apps last month were accepted. Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__ You heard of the ‘fart’ apps and all, right? Mar 18 23:11
MinceR well, the developers have already learned what they shouldn’t even try Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__ Also, Apple added allowed API’s for a lot of the stuff Mar 18 23:12
MinceR i’d care more about the background music player apps and the programming language interpreter apps Mar 18 23:12
MinceR guess what, you can’t do those Mar 18 23:12
Balrog__ like music database access, proximity sensor access, etc Mar 18 23:12
MinceR or provide an improved replacement for anything it ships with Mar 18 23:12
MinceR or something that happens to bother at&t Mar 18 23:12
Balrog__ Background music players would be fine only if they give you a big warning or some other notification saying “app *** may use battery life!!!” Mar 18 23:13
MinceR or something that happens to provide an important feature apple managed to left out Mar 18 23:13
MinceR (copy/paste anyone?) Mar 18 23:13
MinceR i know they use battery life Mar 18 23:13
MinceR that’s how CMOS works, you know Mar 18 23:13
MinceR if a state transition happens, current flows Mar 18 23:13
Balrog__ the ‘improved replacement’ thing was treated interestingly … at first those were rejected, then they started appearing (like improved mail apps) Mar 18 23:13
MinceR if battery life was all i cared about, i wouldn’t put the damn thing into a mobile device in the first place Mar 18 23:14
Balrog__ copy/paste would require a global temp dir. Apple didn’t provide that Mar 18 23:14
MinceR yeah, we’ve heard all the excuses. Mar 18 23:14
MinceR the bottom line is that all apple products are seriously lacking in functionality Mar 18 23:15
MinceR and the only people who don’t realize this are the apple fanboys. Mar 18 23:15
Balrog__ Have you tried anything other than hackintosh? Mar 18 23:15
MinceR and the apple fanboys will naturally keep denying that they’re delusional Mar 18 23:15
Balrog__ I tried hackintosh and it was not a good experience at all. Mar 18 23:15
MinceR i’m not sure what you mean by hackintosh Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__ osx on non-Apple hardware. Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__ The drivers are messy Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__ so is the kernel Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__ you almost never get native support/performance Mar 18 23:16
MinceR i didn’t expect it to be fast or stable or to have 3d acceleration Mar 18 23:16
MinceR i expected the gui to be as usable as the hype says it is Mar 18 23:16
MinceR it wasn’t Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__ if it’s slow, it won’t be usable Mar 18 23:16
MinceR i disregarded slowness because of that Mar 18 23:17
_Hicham_ OSX is always hardware dependent Mar 18 23:17
Balrog__ if you want mousefocus go somewhere else. It’s messy everywhere. Mar 18 23:17
MinceR yes, if i want a gui that works the way i want it, i should go somewhere else Mar 18 23:17
MinceR that’s what i’m doing Mar 18 23:17
MinceR and yes, osx is messy everywhere Mar 18 23:17
MinceR maybe someday apple will learn that not all users have the exact same needs and preferences Mar 18 23:18
MinceR or they’ll go bankrupt Mar 18 23:18
MinceR and the fanboys won’t understand why. Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__ MinceR: I find the OS X gui more flexible than windows Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__ or for that matter, xfce Mar 18 23:18
MinceR i find it less flexible Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__ but then again, it’s understandable with xfce Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__ KDE has all the features but try finding them :P Mar 18 23:20
Balrog__ Gnome … well, ask Linux Mar 18 23:21
Balrog__ Linus ** Mar 18 23:21
MinceR i can find them Mar 18 23:21
MinceR and i think anyone who has the intelligence that’s necessary to use a light switch can find them Mar 18 23:22
Balrog__ so can I. But a very small handful of people I know use mousefocus….probably one or two at most (other than you) Mar 18 23:22
MinceR (oh, well, let’s add literacy as a requirement) Mar 18 23:22
MinceR the point is to provide the option Mar 18 23:22
MinceR m$ and apple both believe they know better than the user Mar 18 23:23
MinceR they don’t. Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__ there’s shareware that seems to add it….http://atomicbird.com/mo… Mar 18 23:23
MinceR until they realize that their guis will always inevitably suck. Mar 18 23:23
MinceR this is something their self-appointed “usability experts” should realize. Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__ (and other ‘hacks’…) Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__ you’ll have very cluttered code if you implement every feature every person wants Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__ even the Linux programmers know this. Mar 18 23:24
MinceR well, focus follows mouse is nice on osx, but how will you reach the menu? Mar 18 23:24
MinceR some idiot had the idea to put it at the top Mar 18 23:24
MinceR what if another window is in the way? Mar 18 23:24
MinceR that’s right, it will receive focus and suddenly its menu is there Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__ what about COMMAND-something? Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__ also, the menu bar never gets covered Mar 18 23:25
MinceR sometimes i don’t want to mess with the keyboard Mar 18 23:25
MinceR also, the menu bar of the topmost window never gets covered even if it isn’t nailed to the top Mar 18 23:25
Balrog__ I’ve seen apps with no menubars :-o Mar 18 23:25
MinceR so have i Mar 18 23:25
Balrog__ (on windows and linux) Mar 18 23:25
MinceR and i still prefer the risc os way Mar 18 23:25
MinceR btw, not even i knew what i wanted my gui to be like until i experimented a lot. Mar 18 23:35
PetoKraus well Mar 18 23:39
PetoKraus i am so used to my UI Mar 18 23:39
PetoKraus that i can’t work with anything else Mar 18 23:39
MinceR i still have some ideas on how to change it. :) Mar 18 23:39
MinceR gn Mar 18 23:40
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) Mar 18 23:42
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