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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 5th, 2009 - Part 1

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balzacphotoshop, flash, dreamweaver *and* ASP, MS SQL, windows server administrationApr 05 00:00
balzacnot to mention 3dsmaxApr 05 00:00
Balrog_well, of all those, photoshop and flash and 3dsmax are probably still viableApr 05 00:00
balzaci was going to learn to use all of thatApr 05 00:00
balzaci don't use any of it anymoreApr 05 00:00
Balrog_although 3dsmax is considered very messyApr 05 00:00
oiaohmI went a different path.Apr 05 00:01
oiaohmI added up the cost of closed source of what I do said O boy cannot aford that.Apr 05 00:01
oiaohmThen found open source tools that did it all for free.Apr 05 00:01
balzacI thought I'd be able to buy licenses after I got a great job in some special-effects shopApr 05 00:01
MinceRi didn't have any income nor the means to even buy most of the sw i usedApr 05 00:02
balzacuntil then, I was just thrilled to have copies of it with dongle-cracksApr 05 00:02
Balrog_balzac: much of that software is timed-licenceApr 05 00:02
balzacnow I wouldn't pay one nickel for a collection of proprietary software binariesApr 05 00:02
Balrog_so you rent it, not buy itApr 05 00:02
oiaohmI have had to yes dongle-cracksApr 05 00:02
oiaohmyes/useApr 05 00:02
oiaohmBecause dongles broke.Apr 05 00:02
Balrog_I can get proprietary software legally from several sourcesApr 05 00:02
MinceRwell now i can tooApr 05 00:03
MinceRbut i don't really need itApr 05 00:03
oiaohmNow you can.Apr 05 00:03
oiaohmProprietary are getting desprate.Apr 05 00:03
MinceRat least commodity swApr 05 00:03
oiaohmAll I have to do is enrol in a course and I get all of MS and Adobe for nothering.Apr 05 00:03
Balrog_the big problem with open sourcing a lot of proprietary sw is shared codeApr 05 00:04
MinceRoperating systems, office apps, stuff like thatApr 05 00:04
oiaohmAnd claim the course back on my tax return.Apr 05 00:04
Balrog_and patentsApr 05 00:04
Balrog_oiaohm: where are you located?Apr 05 00:04
oiaohmAustraliaApr 05 00:04
MinceRoiaohm: do people exploit that? :)Apr 05 00:04
oiaohmMS and Adobe is basically dumping software on education at the monent.  Hell yes.Apr 05 00:05
Balrog_well, MS moreApr 05 00:05
Balrog_here, we have to PAY for adobe software for educationApr 05 00:05
Balrog_less than retail, but still a few hundred at leastApr 05 00:05
oiaohmThat was last year.Apr 05 00:05
balzacoiaohm: met a new bartender from australia in one of the bars I frequentApr 05 00:05
Balrog_they changed it?Apr 05 00:05
balzacI had to ask her for a FostersApr 05 00:06
oiaohmHere they did.Apr 05 00:06
Balrog_oiaohm: are you sure they're not paying for a site license?Apr 05 00:06
balzacAlso asked if I could call her "Sheila".Apr 05 00:06
oiaohmEducation licence includes home usage balzacApr 05 00:06
balzac"put another shrimp on the barbie", I said. She said they call em prawns.Apr 05 00:07
MinceRbut not usage for profit?Apr 05 00:07
Balrog_oiaohm: but you have to pay for an educational license .....Apr 05 00:07
oiaohmCourse last 12 months exactly the same ammount of time as the tax.Apr 05 00:07
oiaohmNop Balrog_Apr 05 00:07
Balrog_where? j/wApr 05 00:07
Balrog_(URL)Apr 05 00:07
oiaohmSoftware is provided as part of studing.Apr 05 00:07
oiaohmTafe system and Uni systems.  Most campes here.Apr 05 00:08
Balrog_hrm. that's probably an MSDN-AA style arrangement, where the school is payingApr 05 00:08
oiaohmYepApr 05 00:08
oiaohmOn a per student base.Apr 05 00:08
oiaohmNo matter how many machines are installed with it.Apr 05 00:08
MinceRwe have that tooApr 05 00:08
MinceRcampus, msdn -- and the taxpayers are paying.Apr 05 00:08
Balrog_we have that, except that my school has two computer departmentsApr 05 00:08
Balrog_one gets it, the other doesn'tApr 05 00:08
oiaohmAustraliansApr 05 00:09
Balrog_(a general computer services department, and the computer science department)Apr 05 00:09
oiaohmIf there is a way to get cheep software they do.Apr 05 00:09
oiaohmIts really funny.Apr 05 00:11
oiaohmUnder the MSDN-AA its under 100 AUD per year to give students access to all MS software.Apr 05 00:12
oiaohmYet buying educuational versions of the same software would set you back over 1000 dollars for a single machine.Apr 05 00:12
oiaohmMS pricing is crap.Apr 05 00:13
Balrog_the whole school pays 100AUD per year? or is that per student?Apr 05 00:13
oiaohmper student.Apr 05 00:13
Balrog_hrm.Apr 05 00:13
oiaohmI am allowed to claim upto 500 dollars are year on training through the tax system.Apr 05 00:14
oiaohmAnd I can enrol and claim just before I have to do tax return.Apr 05 00:14
oiaohmBasically goverment is paying for everything.Apr 05 00:14
oiaohmKinda makes it hard to get open source off the ground here.Apr 05 00:15
Balrog_:(Apr 05 00:16
oiaohmSo not as lucky where you are Balrog_Apr 05 00:16
Balrog_I see.Apr 05 00:17
Balrog_Here the IT people hate MSApr 05 00:17
oiaohmI hate MSApr 05 00:17
Balrog_but they can't get rid of it :Apr 05 00:17
Balrog_:(Apr 05 00:17
oiaohmSameApr 05 00:17
oiaohmLinux is just missing key bits to take over a business network.Apr 05 00:17
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oiaohmUntil then least money going to microsoft the better is my idea Balrog_Apr 05 00:18
Balrog_yes. Here they use 95% linux servers thoughApr 05 00:18
Balrog_yes, I'm not purchasing any MS productsApr 05 00:18
oiaohmIts bit like the stupid question how much does 10 copyies of vista cost.Apr 05 00:19
oiaohmBasically as much as you are dumb enough to pay.Apr 05 00:19
_Hicham_oiaohm : everybody pays for VistaApr 05 00:20
oiaohmI have seen a copy of Vista volume for under 15 dollars.Apr 05 00:20
_Hicham_where that oiaohm?Apr 05 00:20
_Hicham_there in Australia?Apr 05 00:21
oiaohmSupprising how much threating to switch to Linux and being able to for a business made the Vista price just drop.Apr 05 00:21
_Hicham_Vista price is null nowApr 05 00:22
_Hicham_Vista is a null pointerApr 05 00:22
oiaohmRemember a vista volume includes the right to install XP.Apr 05 00:22
oiaohmInstead.Apr 05 00:22
oiaohmYou are normally not buying them for Vista.Apr 05 00:23
oiaohmYet MS classes every Vista volume licence as a Vista sale.Apr 05 00:23
_Hicham_Vista is deadApr 05 00:24
Balrog_yes :/Apr 05 00:24
Balrog_web stats are more accurate, probablyApr 05 00:24
oiaohmWorseApr 05 00:24
oiaohmWindows 7 is designed to upgrade from Vista no XPApr 05 00:24
oiaohmThings are going to get interesting to say the least.Apr 05 00:25
Balrog_http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/200...Apr 05 00:25
oiaohmI am expecting lot of upset people before end of year.Apr 05 00:25
Balrog_firefox 3 has surpassed IE 7 in EuropeApr 05 00:25
Balrog_IE 6 is still used a lotApr 05 00:25
MinceRthey deserve to be upset if they still want to use windows :>Apr 05 00:25
oiaohmHmm that looks very much like the SSL sites graphic.Apr 05 00:27
oiaohmI think we have a converance.Apr 05 00:27
oiaohmMore firefox usage more servers using Linux.Apr 05 00:27
Balrog_IE is steadly losing groundApr 05 00:28
_Hicham_vive FirefoxApr 05 00:28
oiaohmSo is windows server in the SSL marketApr 05 00:28
MinceRgnApr 05 00:28
oiaohmhttp://news.netcraft.com/archives/...   << I like that netcraft has had to make a new benchmarkApr 05 00:29
oiaohmThe old ones have been stuffed by qq.com.Apr 05 00:29
DaemonFCFirefox is crap, but IE is beyond crapApr 05 00:30
DaemonFCso yay FirefoxApr 05 00:30
oiaohmAt the rate qq.com is growning domains it will be the most dominate domain holder by end of year.Apr 05 00:30
oiaohmAnd no one knows what OS qq.com is using.Apr 05 00:30
_Hicham_I still have to use IE from time to timeApr 05 00:30
Balrog_isn't qq.com using modified apache?Apr 05 00:30
oiaohmWe are not even sure of that Balrog_Apr 05 00:31
Balrog_hrm.Apr 05 00:31
oiaohmmodified apache is a guess.Apr 05 00:31
oiaohmhttp://www.acme.com/software/thttpd/  Performance shape matches a non appacheApr 05 00:31
_Hicham_oiaohm : u never recovered data for them?Apr 05 00:32
oiaohmNot yet.  If I do get a chance it will be interesting to find out.Apr 05 00:32
oiaohmMS has depended on just buying domains to keep there netcraft numbers up.Apr 05 00:33
oiaohmqq.com is also doing the same thing.Apr 05 00:33
balzachttp://www.buzzfeed.com/expreside...Apr 05 00:34
oiaohmI like that only about 19 percent of sites people visit are IISApr 05 00:34
oiaohmAnd 66 percent are appache.Apr 05 00:34
oiaohmMS is for sure not the most dominate in webspace.Apr 05 00:34
DaemonFCthat's cause all they can do is ape things that have nearly impenatrable mindshareApr 05 00:35
DaemonFCand can't subvert them with hidden APIs and other dirty tricksApr 05 00:35
DaemonFCcause they're web-basedApr 05 00:35
DaemonFCApache runs on Windows tooApr 05 00:37
DaemonFCMicrosoft is also a member of the Apache foundationApr 05 00:37
oiaohmI think that is more that MS is waking up they have lost the war there.Apr 05 00:37
DaemonFCthey've given up trying to fight Linux as a platform and instead have focused on getting its killer apps running great on WindowsApr 05 00:38
DaemonFCwhich is a good move, for themApr 05 00:38
DaemonFCcustomers were not moving to Linux cause it's cheaperApr 05 00:38
DaemonFCcause it's notApr 05 00:38
DaemonFCthey were going there cause the apps they wanted were thereApr 05 00:39
oiaohmIts both.Apr 05 00:39
Balrog_hrm ... Linux is not cheaper? Maintenance wise, it isApr 05 00:39
DaemonFCRHEL is more expensive to roll out than WindowsApr 05 00:39
Balrog_we use FedoraApr 05 00:39
oiaohmMS Cal system is the problem.Apr 05 00:39
oiaohmIn large networks.Apr 05 00:39
DaemonFCwell, Fedora is stupid to use on anything importantApr 05 00:39
DaemonFCit regularly has bugs getting introduced and then fixesApr 05 00:40
DaemonFCand there's no support for itApr 05 00:40
oiaohmRHEL slight more expensive is very quicky undone when you get over 100 cals.Apr 05 00:40
DaemonFC*fixedApr 05 00:40
DaemonFCFedora is not something you want to have to trustApr 05 00:40
Balrog_well somehow we survive with FedoraApr 05 00:40
Balrog_:)Apr 05 00:40
oiaohmLarge end have major problems with MS pricing.Apr 05 00:40
Balrog_:)Apr 05 00:40
Balrog_:)Apr 05 00:40
oiaohmLow end yes its the appsApr 05 00:41
DaemonFCyou should be using CentOSApr 05 00:41
DaemonFCif you don't need paid supportApr 05 00:41
Balrog_I don't make these decisionsApr 05 00:41
oiaohmMS basically has two problems.Apr 05 00:41
Balrog_DaemonFC: Fedora works good.Apr 05 00:41
oiaohmOther thing ever tried clustering windows.Apr 05 00:41
oiaohmThings are not fun.Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFCFedora has lots of bugsApr 05 00:42
_Hicham_I am using Fedora right nowApr 05 00:42
_Hicham_Fedora just rocksApr 05 00:42
DaemonFCthey get fixed about as often as new ones appearApr 05 00:42
DaemonFCit's not a stable platformApr 05 00:42
oiaohmTCO on a cluster  Linux wins.Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFCthey'll even tell you thatApr 05 00:42
Balrog_well, somehow having all the critical servers running fedora works for us.Apr 05 00:42
_Hicham_it is bleeding edgeApr 05 00:42
_Hicham_lot of servers run fedoraApr 05 00:42
DaemonFCmeh, good for them?Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFCIt's not a headache I wantApr 05 00:43
oiaohmThere is worse.Apr 05 00:43
_Hicham_what distro do u use?Apr 05 00:43
oiaohmServer build from gentoo is worse.Apr 05 00:43
_Hicham_DaemonFC never said its favorite distroApr 05 00:43
Balrog_I use gentoo and it works fine.Apr 05 00:44
DaemonFCright now I'm on Ubuntu's development branch with a kernel I built from GITApr 05 00:44
DaemonFCand it's mroe stable than anything I've used from FedoraApr 05 00:44
oiaohmAs long as you don't have one person tweek a incorrect build option Balrog_Apr 05 00:44
DaemonFCdistribution kernels are the devilApr 05 00:45
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DaemonFCif you don't do anything else, get rid of thatApr 05 00:45
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_Hicham_1oiaohm : did u use fedora ?Apr 05 01:04
Balrog_oiaohm: we don't rebuild kernelsApr 05 01:05
_Hicham_1Balrog_ : why?Apr 05 01:05
_Hicham_1lack of time?Apr 05 01:05
Balrog_no needApr 05 01:05
_Hicham_1why no need?Apr 05 01:06
_Hicham_1it can be optimized for ur needsApr 05 01:06
Balrog_yes I knowApr 05 01:07
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oiaohmI have used FedoraApr 05 01:09
_Hicham_1oiaohm : how do u rank yum compared to apt?Apr 05 01:09
oiaohmFor basic web server fine for more complex stuff where many servers are involved it becomes trouble some.Apr 05 01:09
oiaohmBecause the likes of ldap are not aways properly tested under FedoraApr 05 01:10
oiaohmSo can lead to interesting and strange problems.Apr 05 01:10
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oiaohmCentos is blood releation is fine.Apr 05 01:10
oiaohmyum and apt both sux in there own way.Apr 05 01:10
_Hicham_1apt sucks?Apr 05 01:10
oiaohmReally goes down to the package format.Apr 05 01:11
oiaohmdeb allowes configure on install rpm does notApr 05 01:11
oiaohmDepending on what you are doing sometimes you want the configure on install.Apr 05 01:11
_Hicham_1apt is faster than yumApr 05 01:11
_Hicham_1according to my experienceApr 05 01:11
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oiaohmapt on debApr 05 01:11
_Hicham_1yesApr 05 01:12
oiaohmWith configure on install messages comming up.Apr 05 01:12
oiaohmCan be a minor pain in but at times.Apr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1yesApr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1like showing licensesApr 05 01:12
oiaohmYepApr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1for examples Sun Java licenseApr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1or configuring new kernelsApr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1allowing u to choose what to do to menu.lstApr 05 01:13
oiaohmNothing is perfect.Apr 05 01:13
_Hicham_1I knowApr 05 01:13
oiaohmI really wish deb and rpm would just bit the bullet and merge.Apr 05 01:13
_Hicham_1but deb format is very simple compared to rpmApr 05 01:13
oiaohmTaking the best features from both.Apr 05 01:13
oiaohmNeither is techically better than the othr.Apr 05 01:14
Balrog_rpm is very powerfulApr 05 01:14
_Hicham_1it will never happenApr 05 01:14
Balrog_and yum makes it even more powerfulApr 05 01:14
_Hicham_1Balrog_ : depends on what powerful meansApr 05 01:14
oiaohmrpm5.org is heading down the path to merge.Apr 05 01:14
oiaohmSingle package manager handling either rpm or deb packages.Apr 05 01:14
oiaohmLast bit is really unify the file formats.Apr 05 01:15
_Hicham_1Debian won't ever let down deb formatApr 05 01:15
oiaohmBalrog_ There have been years of debates of RPM vs DEB in LSB packaging mailing list.Apr 05 01:15
_Hicham_1it is the basement of DebianApr 05 01:15
oiaohmDebian as already said they would drop deb.Apr 05 01:16
_Hicham_1LSB recommends rpmApr 05 01:16
oiaohmIf the replacement provided the same feature set.Apr 05 01:16
oiaohmRPM does not.Apr 05 01:16
_Hicham_1oiaohm : when did Debian said that?Apr 05 01:16
_Hicham_1said/sayApr 05 01:16
oiaohm2002 first and about 6 time since in packaging talks at LSB.Apr 05 01:16
oiaohmDeb is not exactly important to them.Apr 05 01:17
oiaohmIts the features.Apr 05 01:17
_Hicham_1then the new format will be backwards compatibleApr 05 01:17
oiaohmLike call the package manager activate the programs configurations tools.Apr 05 01:17
oiaohmNo they don't care about backwards compatible.Apr 05 01:18
oiaohmThey made that more than clear.Apr 05 01:18
_Hicham_1but rpm still doesn't provide configure on installApr 05 01:18
oiaohmIf the package format has all the features they use + more they would drop theres in a hart beat.Apr 05 01:18
oiaohmIt would basically become a legacy format only.Apr 05 01:18
oiaohmDebian is not the road block on packaging as such.Apr 05 01:19
oiaohmAs some RPM people try to make out.Apr 05 01:19
_Hicham_1then rpm should provide all the features of debApr 05 01:20
oiaohmDebian even has a exact list they want meet for them to drop deb for good.Apr 05 01:20
_Hicham_1what did LSB say?Apr 05 01:20
oiaohmReason why LSB allows packaging as RPM and DEB at this stage.Apr 05 01:20
oiaohmBoth can be offical marked as LSB binaries.Apr 05 01:21
_Hicham_1so rpm is trying to provide what Debian requires?Apr 05 01:21
oiaohmrpm5.org is going a different path.Apr 05 01:21
_Hicham_1how ?Apr 05 01:22
oiaohmFirst make a package manager that don't care what is feed in ie deb or rpm it will install both.Apr 05 01:22
oiaohmSo legacy support exists.Apr 05 01:22
oiaohmthen worry about merging the formats.Apr 05 01:22
oiaohmWhy I say I wish the merge would just happen.Apr 05 01:22
oiaohmSo we can say by by to rpm and deb.Apr 05 01:22
_Hicham_1yes, that would be greatApr 05 01:23
_Hicham_1especially for commercial applicationsApr 05 01:23
oiaohmLSB is also working on plan BApr 05 01:23
_Hicham_1packaging is one of the blocking roads to Linux UnificationApr 05 01:23
oiaohmEmbed dynmaic link loader in executable.Apr 05 01:23
oiaohmSo binary installer can always work.Apr 05 01:24
oiaohmIf we cannot get package manger developers to agree by pass the bastards.Apr 05 01:24
_Hicham_1so u r proposing a method like Windows?Apr 05 01:24
_Hicham_1rely on the binary installer?Apr 05 01:25
oiaohmThat is plan b if plan a is not quick enough.Apr 05 01:26
oiaohmBinary installer will have the means to use the package database if allowed to register and install through.Apr 05 01:27
oiaohmBasically something is going to happen to the packaging problem one way or the other.Apr 05 01:27
oiaohmLSB is not mucking around any more.Apr 05 01:27
_Hicham_1Plan B will never happenApr 05 01:28
_Hicham_1personally, I can't trust a binary installerApr 05 01:28
oiaohmPlan B code is over 70 percent complete.Apr 05 01:28
_Hicham_1this will make Linux another WindowsApr 05 01:28
oiaohmPlan A is no where near there.Apr 05 01:29
oiaohmIf package manager makers cannot get along they leave no other option.Apr 05 01:29
_Hicham_1no distro will abide by thatApr 05 01:30
_Hicham_1there is already autopackageApr 05 01:30
_Hicham_1did u use autopackage?Apr 05 01:30
_Hicham_1autopackage brings Windows approach to LinuxApr 05 01:30
oiaohmPackage so far developed by LSB does not need any Distribution dependancies other than the Linux kernel.Apr 05 01:30
oiaohmSo Distrobutions have not a single word they can say to stop plan BApr 05 01:30
oiaohmIt is the out come if they don't get there backsides in order.Apr 05 01:31
oiaohmLSB is not playing.Apr 05 01:31
oiaohm8 years of trying to get distributions to agree on packages they are sick of it.Apr 05 01:31
oiaohmIf making it worse is required so be it.Apr 05 01:32
_Hicham_1will they force the distros to?Apr 05 01:32
oiaohmLSB binarys after the alterations are able to operate completely indendpant to what the distribution provides.Apr 05 01:33
oiaohmSo distribtions will really not have a say.Apr 05 01:33
oiaohmISV want a install everywhere solution and they will get it.Apr 05 01:33
oiaohmEither Distrobutions step up to plate and do it or be disreguard.Apr 05 01:34
_Hicham_1it is very hardApr 05 01:34
oiaohmLSB has tried nice for 8 years.Apr 05 01:35
_Hicham_1can they force distros to?Apr 05 01:35
oiaohmThey don't need to.Apr 05 01:35
_Hicham_1how?Apr 05 01:35
oiaohmThe packages only depend on one thing the Linux kernel.Apr 05 01:35
oiaohmAfter that they are able to do there own thing.Apr 05 01:36
_Hicham_1it is autopackage thenApr 05 01:36
oiaohmLinux kernel has always had this feature designed in.Apr 05 01:36
_Hicham_1did u use autopackage?Apr 05 01:36
oiaohmNot exactly.Apr 05 01:36
_Hicham_1how?Apr 05 01:36
oiaohmautopackage wraps into a native package.Apr 05 01:36
oiaohmThese installers don't.Apr 05 01:36
DaemonFCAutoPackage is a bad ideaApr 05 01:36
DaemonFCcreates conflicts with your distributions package managerApr 05 01:37
_Hicham_1is this ready?Apr 05 01:37
oiaohmIf distribution does not provide a registration interface of package kit they will not know what files have been installed.Apr 05 01:37
oiaohmAs I say this will make a mess.Apr 05 01:37
oiaohmLSB don't care any more.Apr 05 01:37
DaemonFCAnd like I said yesterday, LSB simply introduces more bugs into distros when they try to work around bugs in the LSB test suiteApr 05 01:37
oiaohmLSB applications will be able to operate in there own directory independant to what distrobution provides.Apr 05 01:38
_Hicham_1is there any available LSB apps?Apr 05 01:38
oiaohmYes there are _Hicham_1Apr 05 01:38
_Hicham_1give me one for exampleApr 05 01:39
oiaohmOrcale database.Apr 05 01:39
oiaohmAnd its support tools.Apr 05 01:39
oiaohmStarOffice.Apr 05 01:39
oiaohmThere are quite a few.Apr 05 01:39
_Hicham_1do they work on major distros?Apr 05 01:39
oiaohmEven the way openoffice Linux binaries are packaged are to LSB standard.Apr 05 01:40
oiaohmYes they do _Hicham_1Apr 05 01:40
oiaohmAs long as LSB support packages are installed.Apr 05 01:40
oiaohmDistributions refused to install they by default.Apr 05 01:40
oiaohmYou are away DaemonFC that LSB on any distribution has its own dynamic linker so there is no need to alter main packages to match LSB.Apr 05 01:41
oiaohmTo pass LSB tests.Apr 05 01:41
oiaohmBasically it a load of crap that distributions have to break support with there native applications to support LSB.Apr 05 01:42
oiaohmIts a nice big myth so distributions don't have to make it work.Apr 05 01:42
oiaohmThere is no reason why if distributions worked with each other why they could not provide LSB support as a common shared runtime.Apr 05 01:42
_Hicham_1so LSB packages will exist with native packagesApr 05 01:43
_Hicham_1?Apr 05 01:43
oiaohmThey can.Apr 05 01:44
oiaohmAlways has been able to.Apr 05 01:44
_Hicham_1then I won't develop LSB ApplicationsApr 05 01:44
_Hicham_1I will stick to deb formatApr 05 01:44
oiaohmIts only true requirement has been that its support libraries be installed.Apr 05 01:44
oiaohmBinary installer makes that optional.Apr 05 01:45
_Hicham_1I don't like binary installersApr 05 01:45
oiaohmIt also goes after the out edge distributions who don't want to standardise with any other distribution.Apr 05 01:45
_Hicham_1I try to avoid them as much as possibleApr 05 01:45
_Hicham_1rpm won't even offer configure during installApr 05 01:46
_Hicham_1is there something like Debconf on rpm?Apr 05 01:46
oiaohmBinary installer is design if distrobution support it that binary installer can be run in a limited account.Apr 05 01:46
oiaohmAnd all installed files be approved.Apr 05 01:46
DaemonFCLSB has their head so far up Red Hat/Novells assApr 05 01:46
_Hicham_1LSB choosed rpmApr 05 01:47
DaemonFCmmhmApr 05 01:47
oiaohmNo rpm is one of those things.Apr 05 01:47
DaemonFCeven though Dpkg is older and betterApr 05 01:47
oiaohmEveryone sat down at a table LSB officals ask everyone to vote on it.Apr 05 01:47
oiaohmby an agreed method.Apr 05 01:47
_Hicham_1merge rpm with debApr 05 01:48
oiaohmDebian did not place object to vote before vote.Apr 05 01:48
_Hicham_1yes to thatApr 05 01:48
_Hicham_1provide all the features of both, yesApr 05 01:48
oiaohmOnly after so LSB tried to force it so there other votes could not be disreguardApr 05 01:48
oiaohmYes biggest LSB mistake in its history.Apr 05 01:48
oiaohmNever been forgoten.Apr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1they have been bribed by RedHat/NovellApr 05 01:49
oiaohmNoApr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1that is why they choose rpmApr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1why not merge?Apr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1they can work on thatApr 05 01:49
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_Hicham_1bring Debian devs and RedHat devs to work on a solution togetherApr 05 01:50
oiaohmYou are aware that LSB specifuation RPM format basically does not work.Apr 05 01:50
oiaohmYou built a package by that it will not install.Apr 05 01:50
_Hicham_1the specification is not respected by RedHat?Apr 05 01:50
oiaohmSimple fact LSB has refused to keep on updating it if merge work does not happen.Apr 05 01:51
oiaohmLSB has resisted in placed.Apr 05 01:51
oiaohmProblem is they cannot just dump a vote without risking invalidating other votes.Apr 05 01:51
_Hicham_1Binary Installers = ObscurityApr 05 01:52
_Hicham_1we well go again to WindowsApr 05 01:52
_Hicham_1well/willApr 05 01:53
_Hicham_1Binary installers with spyware and so onApr 05 01:53
_Hicham_1and the system is fuckedApr 05 01:53
oiaohmYou can install spyware with deb and rpm as well.Apr 05 01:55
oiaohmYou should be aware that release of binary only installers line up with real-time virus scanning support being added to Linux kernel.Apr 05 01:55
oiaohmYes hello windows.Apr 05 01:56
_Hicham_1wowApr 05 01:57
_Hicham_1greatApr 05 01:57
_Hicham_1we will end up with Windows problemsApr 05 01:57
_Hicham_1and call for MS for some help :DApr 05 01:58
oiaohmNot allApr 05 01:59
oiaohmIf distrobutions provide interface applications cannot install everywhere.Apr 05 01:59
oiaohmAnd cannot be installed in away that is not uninstallable.Apr 05 02:00
oiaohmNow distrobutions who don't take part will have there distribution reduced to being as bad as windows.Apr 05 02:00
_Hicham_1what about certified packages?Apr 05 02:00
DaemonFCyeah, LSB is nothing more than a system of threats for cashApr 05 02:01
oiaohmLSB provides certified packages.Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1the packages will be certified by LSB?Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1even commercial certified packages?Apr 05 02:01
oiaohmYes.Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1that will be greatApr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1finally we can have native pirated photoshop on LinuxApr 05 02:02
_Hicham_1or native pirated macromedia flashApr 05 02:02
oiaohmIts about getting rid of the reason why companies will not release packages on Linux.Apr 05 02:02
_Hicham_1like we have native pirated neroApr 05 02:02
_Hicham_1there is already solutions for thatApr 05 02:03
_Hicham_1binary installers like those of Real PlayerApr 05 02:03
_Hicham_1and GoogleApr 05 02:03
oiaohmLook closer at googles.Apr 05 02:03
oiaohmWere do you think the design for this new system is coming from.Apr 05 02:03
oiaohmIe plan b.Apr 05 02:03
_Hicham_1but Debian resistsApr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1there is a deb creator for googleearthApr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1and a deb creator for sun javaApr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1and everything works wellApr 05 02:04
oiaohmThey can and they are slowly kiling themselfs.Apr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1so we don't have to fuck our package management systemApr 05 02:05
_Hicham_1why killing themselves?Apr 05 02:05
oiaohmAll the extra maintaining time wasted on duplicating work.Apr 05 02:05
oiaohmThat could go into more useful things.Apr 05 02:05
_Hicham_1we can create a wrapper around binary installers to create deb packagesApr 05 02:05
oiaohmReason why part of this solution is a clean interface to distribution.Apr 05 02:05
oiaohmTo do equal to having a deb rpm or what ever else package.Apr 05 02:06
oiaohmfor registration in package database.Apr 05 02:06
_Hicham_1clean interface means abondon of native package managementApr 05 02:06
_Hicham_1why not stick with the installers?Apr 05 02:06
_Hicham_1who is having this problem, commercial entities, right?Apr 05 02:06
oiaohmAnd open source entitiesApr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1noApr 05 02:07
oiaohmAnyone want to release packages for all distributions.Apr 05 02:07
oiaohmIs having hell.Apr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1open source entities don't have this problemApr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1because the distros do itApr 05 02:07
oiaohmThere are many that have the problem.Apr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1example?Apr 05 02:07
oiaohmTake wine.Apr 05 02:07
oiaohmUbuntu ships a wine package that is custom altered.Apr 05 02:08
oiaohmSame with many other distributions.Apr 05 02:08
_Hicham_1it is their rightApr 05 02:08
oiaohmSo errors happen.  So wine is forced to do there own package as well.Apr 05 02:08
oiaohmTo work out if its the distribution alteration or a real fault.Apr 05 02:08
_Hicham_1u mean upstream/downstream cooperation?Apr 05 02:08
oiaohmIts costing massive ammounts of time.Apr 05 02:08
oiaohmThere is not any cooperation from distributions.Apr 05 02:08
oiaohmFor lots of them.Apr 05 02:09
_Hicham_1well, the major ones doApr 05 02:09
oiaohmUbuntu don't.Apr 05 02:09
oiaohmDebian don'tApr 05 02:09
oiaohmBoth think they have the right to patch anything and not have to take repsonablity for it.Apr 05 02:09
oiaohmSo yes Open source project are harmed.Apr 05 02:10
oiaohmThey want a unifined installer of some form to get out of distribution hell.Apr 05 02:10
oiaohmAnd reduce there overheads.Apr 05 02:10
oiaohmUbuntu will even complete disreguard instructions not to back port particular patches because they are broken.Apr 05 02:11
oiaohmYou really need to get up close and personal with distrubitons to know how bad this is.Apr 05 02:12
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_Hicham_1DaemonFC : are u still here?Apr 05 02:16
DaemonFCI really don't care is LSB takes off because it's a scam anywayApr 05 02:17
DaemonFCso they can charge a fortune to certify something as LinuxApr 05 02:17
DaemonFCit'll be effectively as bad as UNIXApr 05 02:17
_Hicham_1what do u say about upstream/downstream cooperation?Apr 05 02:17
_Hicham_1DaemonFC : where is ur trolling talent?Apr 05 02:20
_Hicham_1not even a troll nowApr 05 02:23
_Hicham_1schestowitz is already asleepApr 05 02:24
DaemonFCI wouldn't cooperate with a group trying to blackmail meApr 05 02:25
DaemonFCif I had a distroApr 05 02:25
DaemonFCwhy should Ubuntu or Debian?Apr 05 02:25
_Hicham_1I am talking about upstream/downstream cooperationApr 05 02:27
DaemonFCno blackmail isn't really the wordApr 05 02:27
DaemonFCso much as extortionApr 05 02:27
_Hicham_1it is not blackmailApr 05 02:27
DaemonFCyeah it isApr 05 02:27
DaemonFCthey want huge licensing feesApr 05 02:27
DaemonFCto get to say you're LSB-compliantApr 05 02:27
_Hicham_1do u agree that upstream should cooperate with downstream?Apr 05 02:27
_Hicham_1I am not talking about LSB nowApr 05 02:28
_Hicham_1I agree with u, LSB is suspiciousApr 05 02:28
DaemonFCyeah, I agree they should work together instead of tugging on each otherApr 05 02:28
DaemonFCUbuntu's notify-osd daemon is an example of them not being friendly with upstreamApr 05 02:28
_Hicham_1but the fact is that the distros make it harderApr 05 02:28
_Hicham_1exactlyApr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1now u get meApr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1there is a real problem in thereApr 05 02:29
DaemonFCI chewed them out about it and they got defensiveApr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1it is a huge work for upstream to set repos for each distroApr 05 02:29
DaemonFCyet they admit that without Ubuntu-specific patches, GNOME won't even build or work on Ubuntu nowApr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1wowApr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1that is not good at allApr 05 02:30
DaemonFCyou can't get upstream GNOME to build or runApr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1they are not playing goodApr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1unlike fedora policyApr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1they try to stay close to upstreamApr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1which I really likeApr 05 02:30
DaemonFChttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam...Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFC"We currently do not have the infrastructure to provide a real "pure" GNOME environment, since some patches will even be required just to build and work at all under Ubuntu."Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFC:)Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFCso to preempt anyone accusing me of trollingApr 05 02:31
DaemonFCUBUNTU said itApr 05 02:31
_Hicham_1so they messed GNOME really badApr 05 02:32
_Hicham_1because there is no Debian build for 2.26Apr 05 02:32
DaemonFCGNOME isn't messed upApr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1that is why they are stumbling uponApr 05 02:33
DaemonFCUbuntu is messed upApr 05 02:33
DaemonFCand they have to patch GNOME against their specific GNOME patchesApr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1that is what I meantApr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1they did a bad jobApr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1not like debian oneApr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1debian tries to stay close to GnomeApr 05 02:34
DaemonFCnow maybe they do good work and maybe they don't, but GNOME should not be made totally incompatible with GNOME in any event ;)Apr 05 02:34
DaemonFCI happen to like notify-osd from a user perspectiveApr 05 02:34
DaemonFCbut if it creates incompatibility with upstream GNOME, it should not be usedApr 05 02:35
DaemonFCI have a suspicion that Ubuntu is trying to strongarm GNOME into taking notify-osdApr 05 02:35
DaemonFClike it or notApr 05 02:35
DaemonFC:)Apr 05 02:35
_Hicham_1good suggestionApr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1but that means further cooperation with GNOMEApr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1but Ubuntu don't work closely with UpstreamApr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1unlike FedoraApr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1Fedora ships the latest GNOME alwaysApr 05 02:38
DaemonFCUbuntu doesn't have to work closely with upstreamApr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1why?Apr 05 02:38
DaemonFCthey're a second tier rebranding of DebianApr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1but people don't have to report bugs to upstreamApr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1just launchpadApr 05 02:38
DaemonFCfrom their perspective, they only need to maintain patches on top of whatever Debian pumps outApr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1bad perspectiveApr 05 02:39
DaemonFCthat's why Ubuntu contributes very few patches upstreamApr 05 02:39
_Hicham_1Debian didn't pump out GNOME 2.26Apr 05 02:39
DaemonFCyou won't see that happen unless they just get frustrated at dealing with the same bugApr 05 02:39
DaemonFCevery time they pull Debian packagesApr 05 02:39
_Hicham_1this time unfortunately, they have to be on their ownApr 05 02:40
DaemonFCyeah, cause nobody else uses notify-osdApr 05 02:40
DaemonFCwhich should give them more incentive to ask GNOME to make it officialApr 05 02:40
DaemonFCso that they don't have to fix it every time GNOME does something that breaks itApr 05 02:40
DaemonFCunfortunately, I don't think that they think like thatApr 05 02:41
_Hicham_1notify-osd is not that big inventionApr 05 02:42
_Hicham_1they should have done sthg usefulApr 05 02:42
DaemonFCthe new notifications are definitely less of an annoyanceApr 05 02:42
DaemonFCand provide a good deal of usability improvementApr 05 02:42
_Hicham_1so u liked notify-osd?Apr 05 02:42
DaemonFCwell, yes I doApr 05 02:42
DaemonFCyou don't have to bother closing them, you can't close themApr 05 02:43
DaemonFCthey go away on their ownApr 05 02:43
DaemonFCwith no timer counting downApr 05 02:43
DaemonFCand you can click through themApr 05 02:43
DaemonFCthey become transparent if you need to mouse over themApr 05 02:43
_Hicham_1it is not that big invention thoughApr 05 02:43
_Hicham_1it can be merged in GNOMEApr 05 02:43
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DaemonFCit's much less of a shock to receive a notification from something nowApr 05 02:44
DaemonFCand you don't have to feel like you need to do something with itApr 05 02:44
DaemonFCon its own it's not a huge thingApr 05 02:44
_Hicham_1at least Ubuntu contributesApr 05 02:45
DaemonFCit's one of those "if we make a dozen things more user-friendly, our system becomes easier to maintain as a whole"Apr 05 02:45
DaemonFClike greasing a squeaky wheelApr 05 02:45
_Hicham_1no it won'tApr 05 02:46
_Hicham_1if they don't stick to upstreamApr 05 02:46
_Hicham_1they need Debian anywayApr 05 02:46
_Hicham_1that is what I like in Fedora, their involvment with UpstreamApr 05 02:47
DaemonFCthe way they explained it, the notify-osd system is invoked the same way as the old notifications systemApr 05 02:47
DaemonFCand their version has actually flushed out bugs in apps that don't conform to the freedesktop.org specsApr 05 02:48
DaemonFCand Ubuntu has patched them to complyApr 05 02:48
DaemonFCthat's what they told me anywayApr 05 02:48
DaemonFCI dunno, one way of looking at Ubuntu is that what's good for Ubuntu is good for LinuxApr 05 02:49
DaemonFCand Shuttleworth has said he has no interest in backalley deals with MS or acknowledging any of their patent claimsApr 05 02:50
DaemonFCso I'm sort of comfortable with them, for nowApr 05 02:50
DaemonFCRight now Ubuntu and Fedora are leaders in the Linux world, nothing else is attracting that many usersApr 05 02:51
_Hicham_1Ethically, Ubuntu isn't very much FOSS LeaderApr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1take for example launchpadApr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1malone, rosettaApr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1they are all closed sourceApr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1that means a lotApr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1the entity is trying to be profitableApr 05 02:53
DaemonFCBazaar is open sourceApr 05 02:53
_Hicham_1who created bazaar?Apr 05 02:53
DaemonFCCanonicalApr 05 02:53
DaemonFCand Upstartd is open sourcedApr 05 02:53
DaemonFCand is now used by Fedora tooApr 05 02:53
_Hicham_1Fedora uses Bazaar?Apr 05 02:54
DaemonFClike I said, they're greasing a lot of wheels that have been squeakingApr 05 02:54
DaemonFCnoApr 05 02:54
DaemonFCFedora uses UpstartApr 05 02:54
DaemonFCwhich was made by CanonicalApr 05 02:54
DaemonFCUpstart is a replacement for init, it could also replace cron and anacron but nobody is using it for that, yetApr 05 02:55
DaemonFCit is backwards compatible with SysVInit thoughApr 05 02:55
_Hicham_1Upstart is used by Ubuntu too?Apr 05 02:55
DaemonFCso you can run it with the exact same scripts if you likeApr 05 02:56
DaemonFCyepApr 05 02:56
_Hicham_1didn't know that...Apr 05 02:56
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UpstartApr 05 02:56
_Hicham_1but why launchpad isn't open-sourced?Apr 05 02:56
DaemonFCI don't even see why it wouldn't work with Solaris or FreeBSDApr 05 02:56
DaemonFCunless there's a license issue for some reasonApr 05 02:56
_Hicham_1does it improve boot time?Apr 05 02:58
DaemonFCCanonical is releasing Launchpad under free software licensesApr 05 02:58
DaemonFCStorm was the first component released as free softwareApr 05 02:58
DaemonFCit canApr 05 02:58
DaemonFCUpstart can be multi-threadedApr 05 02:58
_Hicham_1Upstart is licensed to Canonical?Apr 05 02:59
DaemonFCso you can have it use multiple CPU cores to do its work at boot timeApr 05 02:59
DaemonFCbut faster boot wasn't the main reason for itApr 05 02:59
DaemonFCit's smarter than SysVInitApr 05 02:59
DaemonFCit can be triggered to do things by eventApr 05 03:00
DaemonFCrather than by scriptApr 05 03:00
DaemonFCno, Upstart is GPL licensedApr 05 03:00
DaemonFCversion 2 or later I believeApr 05 03:00
_Hicham_1by the way, the guy who created Upstart, was an ex-debian devApr 05 03:01
DaemonFCyeahApr 05 03:01
DaemonFCbut he's a Canonical employee nowApr 05 03:01
DaemonFCthat's where they head huntApr 05 03:01
DaemonFCI usually read the Official Ubuntu Book whenever they republish itApr 05 03:01
DaemonFCit's a decent walkthrough on all the new featuresApr 05 03:02
_Hicham_1by stealing debian devs?Apr 05 03:02
DaemonFCnot reallyApr 05 03:04
DaemonFCby employing themApr 05 03:04
_Hicham_1and blocking them from contributing to debian?Apr 05 03:04
DaemonFCnoApr 05 03:04
DaemonFCplenty of things that started in Ubuntu end up in DebianApr 05 03:05
DaemonFCif they don't it's usually cause Debian's policy turned it downApr 05 03:05
DaemonFCa lot of the user-friendliness of Debian Lenny comes from things they cherry picked out of UbuntuApr 05 03:05
_Hicham_1example?Apr 05 03:06
DaemonFCsoftware updates, add/remove programs, just lots of little stuffApr 05 03:06
DaemonFCI believe dash is /bin/shApr 05 03:06
DaemonFCUbuntu started that a couple years agoApr 05 03:06
DaemonFCthey still use SysVInit thoughApr 05 03:07
DaemonFCthat's their lossApr 05 03:07
DaemonFCUpstart also makes for a more reliable systemApr 05 03:08
_Hicham_1u mean the gnome-app-install package?Apr 05 03:08
DaemonFCbecause it can respawn daemons that die for whatever reasonApr 05 03:08
DaemonFCwhere SysVInit cannotApr 05 03:08
_Hicham_1well, they need time to prove it is stableApr 05 03:09
DaemonFCUbuntu has been using it since October 2006Apr 05 03:09
DaemonFCFedora has been using it since Fedora 9Apr 05 03:09
_Hicham_1Debian has its own policyApr 05 03:10
DaemonFCwhich is why Ubuntu existsApr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1I knowApr 05 03:10
DaemonFCDebian releases are slow and unpredictableApr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1I don't say that Ubuntu shouldn't existApr 05 03:10
DaemonFCand their policies are ludicrous in some waysApr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1I agreeApr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1but it is the price for freedomApr 05 03:10
DaemonFCDebian isn't freeApr 05 03:11
_Hicham_1how?Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFCby free software standards it's notApr 05 03:11
DaemonFCthat's why the FSF does not recommend DebianApr 05 03:11
DaemonFCit ships with non-free blobsApr 05 03:11
_Hicham_1in the non-free repo yesApr 05 03:11
DaemonFCand has easy access to a store of non-free componentsApr 05 03:11
DaemonFCnoApr 05 03:11
DaemonFCit has non-free stuff by defaultApr 05 03:12
DaemonFCin the kernelApr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1the firmwares?Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFCyeahApr 05 03:12
DaemonFCthose make it non-free as a distributionApr 05 03:12
DaemonFCaccording to the FSFApr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1well, I had to install a lot of firmwares by handApr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1for the wireless cardApr 05 03:12
DaemonFCthe FSF has a script that you can run on Linux kernel sourceApr 05 03:12
DaemonFCto strip out the blobsApr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1for the sound card I had to compile themApr 05 03:13
DaemonFCbut good luck getting a lot of stuff to work after thatApr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1that is the problemApr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1that is why they created gNewSenseApr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1to make ur life more difficultApr 05 03:13
DaemonFCand gNewSense doesn't work right, and is crippledApr 05 03:13
DaemonFCeven where it has no reason to beApr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1basically, the Ubuntu approach is perfectApr 05 03:14
DaemonFCgNewSense removed GLX even though GLX is free softwareApr 05 03:14
DaemonFCbecause it wasn't free "enough"Apr 05 03:14
_Hicham_1wowApr 05 03:14
DaemonFCand kept it out even after SGI revised the licenseApr 05 03:14
DaemonFCto remove the parts they complained aboutApr 05 03:14
DaemonFCso that crippled GPUs like Intel and some AMD/ATI RadeonsApr 05 03:15
_Hicham_1gNewSense should be horribleApr 05 03:15
DaemonFCwhich have free drivers that can use the 3d acceleration of GLXApr 05 03:15
_Hicham_1worse than Fedora in its early daysApr 05 03:15
DaemonFCWell, Fedora really only limits things based on if someone will sue themApr 05 03:16
DaemonFClolApr 05 03:16
DaemonFCkind of like UbuntuApr 05 03:16
_Hicham_1Fedora now is more cutting edge than UbuntuApr 05 03:16
DaemonFCso like my wifi card works in either one, but I have to go find an mp3 codecApr 05 03:17
_Hicham_1with their release of Fedora 11Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFCB-)Apr 05 03:17
_Hicham_1Fedora also have the gnome-codec-install package by defaultApr 05 03:17
DaemonFCFedora is just stupid sometimesApr 05 03:17
DaemonFCit still can't boot on Ext4Apr 05 03:17
twitterHiApr 05 03:17
DaemonFCor XFSApr 05 03:17
_Hicham_1Fedora 11?Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFCNot cause GRUB can't boot themApr 05 03:17
DaemonFCbecause Fedora won't allow youApr 05 03:18
twitterhere's a LOL article from Computer World  http://blogs.computerworld.com/anot...Apr 05 03:18
DaemonFCyeah, Fedora 11Apr 05 03:18
DaemonFCUbuntu Jaunty can boot Ext4 or XFSApr 05 03:18
twitterit ends, -> At the beginning, this guy said he wanted "Portability, Battery and Power". He got a 16-inch laptop that isn't considered very portable to say the least.  It has the same processor as an entry level MacBook.  The battery is substandard at best.  He got none of what he wanted Congratulations G.  You are a PC.Apr 05 03:18
DaemonFCwithout a separate /bootApr 05 03:18
_Hicham_1Maybe because they don't trust Ext4 yetApr 05 03:19
DaemonFCTelling the user to make a separate /boot even though GRUB supports /boot on Ext4 or XFS is just stupidApr 05 03:19
twitterWhy do you want a journaled file system for binaries?Apr 05 03:19
DaemonFCmaybe I don't like to make a lot of unnecessary partitions?Apr 05 03:20
DaemonFCMaybe I like booting a couple seconds quickerApr 05 03:20
DaemonFCmaybe I don't want to guess at how much space to allocateApr 05 03:20
twitterExt2 works for my /usr and /varApr 05 03:20
DaemonFCMaybe I want one type of fsApr 05 03:20
DaemonFCand one type onlyApr 05 03:21
DaemonFCIf I make /boot on Ext3 I have to give my kernel Ext3 supportApr 05 03:21
twitterif you want speed, you don't want a journal but I don't think there's that big of a difference.Apr 05 03:21
DaemonFCMy kernel onl ysupports Ext4Apr 05 03:21
DaemonFCcause it's all I useApr 05 03:22
DaemonFCthe Ext4 driver can mount Ext3 volumes just fineApr 05 03:22
DaemonFCas Ext4Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFCand if you don't enable Extents, it stays compatible with Ext3Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFCB-)Apr 05 03:22
twitterIf you can compile your own kernel, it should not be too difficult for you to make FC do what you want.Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFCnot if the setup won't let youApr 05 03:22
DaemonFCand won't let you override itApr 05 03:23
DaemonFCI've have to dump the fresh install onto an external hard diskApr 05 03:23
DaemonFCthen mkfs.xfsApr 05 03:23
DaemonFCthen restore onto the new XFS volumeApr 05 03:23
DaemonFCthat's more workthan it's worthApr 05 03:23
twitterwhy don't you modify the install?Apr 05 03:24
DaemonFCAnaconda is just a python app, I probably could force it to not be stupid if I wanted to bother running FedoraApr 05 03:24
DaemonFCbut there's little point in thatApr 05 03:24
twitterthen why complain?Apr 05 03:25
DaemonFCcause they're file system nazisApr 05 03:25
DaemonFC:PApr 05 03:25
DaemonFC:)Apr 05 03:25
twitterOkApr 05 03:25
twitterWhat else is going on?Apr 05 03:25
twitterI have not had much time to look at news today.Apr 05 03:26
DaemonFCRPM Fusion's Nvidia driver is also corruptApr 05 03:26
DaemonFCso you have to use Nvidia's .run scriptApr 05 03:26
DaemonFCwhich defeats the purpose of having a package managerApr 05 03:26
twitternvidia is corrupt but I'm told that's changing :-DApr 05 03:26
DaemonFCand at this point I may as well jsut maintain the kernel myself tooApr 05 03:26
DaemonFCand that means building RPMs, yuckApr 05 03:27
DaemonFCand so on....Apr 05 03:27
DaemonFCB-)Apr 05 03:27
DaemonFCFedora does not reward you for poking around with itApr 05 03:27
DaemonFCtrying to make it work super wellApr 05 03:27
_Hicham_1better buy Intel cardsApr 05 03:28
_Hicham_1or ATI, as their drivers are getting open sourcedApr 05 03:28
DaemonFCInhtel does not make cardsApr 05 03:29
DaemonFCthey make integrated chipsetsApr 05 03:29
DaemonFCthey perform badlyApr 05 03:29
DaemonFCand you can't upgrade them with a better Intel chipApr 05 03:29
DaemonFCwithout replacing the motherboardApr 05 03:29
_Hicham_1ATI will be open source soonApr 05 03:30
DaemonFCnot reallyApr 05 03:31
DaemonFCthey released some specs of their hardwareApr 05 03:31
DaemonFCand the community has built a better driver than the company that has access to ALL the specs cause they BUILT the hardwareApr 05 03:31
DaemonFClolApr 05 03:31
DaemonFCand did it all in under 2 yearsApr 05 03:32
_Hicham_1they can't release the complete codeApr 05 03:32
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_Hicham_1DaemonFC : still here?Apr 05 03:43
DaemonFCsureApr 05 03:43
_Hicham_1it is not that easy to open source the codeApr 05 03:44
_Hicham_1the original code is not under a single licenseApr 05 03:45
_Hicham_1usually there is more than one license in the original codeApr 05 03:45
_Hicham_1so open source ATI drivers is not that easyApr 05 03:47
_Hicham_1where do u leave DaemonFC?Apr 05 03:48
_Hicham_1leave/liveApr 05 03:48
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zer0c00lGadgets that make u look like a jerk -> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/...Apr 05 05:51
zer0c00lpoor microsoft attacks gnu/linuxApr 05 05:51
zer0c00llinux is not a gadget :P ..probably written by some 14 year old jerkApr 05 05:52
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DaemonFCit says in the article that MSNBC is owned by Microsoft, lolApr 05 06:04
DaemonFCas they are ridiculing their competitionApr 05 06:05
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schestowitzheyApr 05 06:37
schestowitzI missed this funny about Fleury..  http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-s...Apr 05 07:08
schestowitzThis article is wrongly suggesting that Google is "open-source": http://news.alibaba.com/articl... No mention of OOo? 0_oApr 05 07:30
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schestowitzAnother company that thinks "open source" means exploiting a community.. http://mybroadband.co.z...Apr 05 07:32
schestowitzhttp://www.webwire.com/View... "Past OSCON sponsors and exhibitors included Intel, Microsoft, Sun..."Apr 05 07:48
schestowitzGermany invests €500 million in FOSS http://www.information-age.com/channels/...Apr 05 08:08
schestowitz"This surprising move means not only that the list of signatories is shrinking further--I have confirmation that Google has refused to sign, along with the already well-known Amazon and Microsoft declinations" This suggests that Microsoft just simply snubbed it again. just like it did with ODF...Apr 05 08:40
schestowitzMicrosoft apologist: http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4553Apr 05 08:57
schestowitzCritics slam Microsoft bridge as waste of stimulus money < http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/... >Apr 05 09:13
schestowitzhttp://technologizer.com/2009/03/29/i... "The Zune for all intents and purposes has been anything but a success for Microsoft. Redmond saw that Apple was wildly successful in controlling the experience from the top down, and decided to try to duplicate it."Apr 05 09:24
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Recent Techrights' Posts

With 9 Mentions of Azure In Its Latest Blog Post, Canonical is Again Promoting Microsoft and Intel Vendor Lock-in, Surveillance, Back Doors, Considerable Power Waste, and Defects That Cannot be Fixed
Microsoft did not even have to buy Canonical (for Canonical to act like it happened)
Links 28/03/2024: GAFAM Replacing Full-Time Workers With Interns Now
Links for the day
Consent & Debian's illegitimate constitution
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
The Time Our Server Host Died in a Car Accident
If Debian has internal problems, then they need to be illuminated and then tackled, at the very least in order to ensure we do not end up with "Deadian"
China's New 'IT' Rules Are a Massive Headache for Microsoft
On the issue of China we're neutral except when it comes to human rights issues
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, March 27, 2024
IRC logs for Wednesday, March 27, 2024
WeMakeFedora.org: harassment decision, victory for volunteers and Fedora Foundations
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Links 27/03/2024: Terrorism Grows in Africa, Unemployment in Finland Rose Sharply in a Year, Chinese Aggression Escalates
Links for the day
Links 27/03/2024: Ericsson and Tencent Layoffs
Links for the day
Amid Online Reports of XBox Sales Collapsing, Mass Layoffs in More Teams, and Windows Making Things Worse (Admission of Losses, Rumours About XBox Canceled as a Hardware Unit)...
Windows has loads of issues, also as a gaming platform
Links 27/03/2024: BBC Resorts to CG Cruft, Akamai Blocking Blunders in Piracy Shield
Links for the day
Android Approaches 90% of the Operating Systems Market in Chad (Windows Down From 99.5% 15 Years Ago to Just 2.5% Right Now)
Windows is down to about 2% on the Web-connected client side as measured by statCounter
Sainsbury's: Let Them Eat Yoghurts (and Microsoft Downtimes When They Need Proper Food)
a social control media 'scandal' this week
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, March 26, 2024
IRC logs for Tuesday, March 26, 2024
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
Windows/Client at Microsoft Falling Sharply (Well Over 10% Decline Every Quarter), So For His Next Trick the Ponzi in Chief Merges Units, Spices Everything Up With "AI"
Hiding the steep decline of Windows/Client at Microsoft?
Free technology in housing and construction
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
We Need Open Standards With Free Software Implementations, Not "Interoperability" Alone
Sadly we're confronting misguided managers and a bunch of clowns trying to herd us all - sometimes without consent - into "clown computing"
Microsoft's Collapse in the Web Server Space Continued This Month
Microsoft is the "2%", just like Windows in some countries
Links 26/03/2024: Inflation Problems, Strikes in Finland
Links for the day
Gemini Links 26/03/2024: Losing Children, Carbon Tax Discussed
Links for the day
Mark Shuttleworth resigns from Debian: volunteer suicide and Albania questions unanswered, mass resignations continue
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Links 26/03/2024: 6,000 Layoffs at Dell, Microsoft “XBox is in Real Trouble as a Hardware Manufacturer”
Links for the day
Gemini Links 26/03/2024: Microsofters Still Trying to 'Extend' Gemini Protocol
Links for the day
Look What IBM's Red Hat is Turning CentOS Into
For 17 years our site ran on CentOS. Thankfully we're done with that...
The Julian Paul Assange Verdict: The High Court Has Granted Assange Leave to Appeal Extradition to the United States, Decision Adjourned to May 20th Pending Assurances
The decision is out
The Microsoft and Apple Antitrust Issues Have Some But Not Many Commonalities
gist of the comparison to Microsoft
ZDNet, Sponsored by Microsoft for Paid-for Propaganda (in 'Article' Clothing), Has Added Pop-Up or Overlay to All Pages, Saying "813 Partners Will Store and Access Information on Your Device"
Avoiding ZDNet may become imperative given what it has turned into
Julian Assange Verdict 3 Hours Away
Their decision is due to be published at 1030 GMT
People Who Cover Suicide Aren't Suicidal
Assange didn't just "deteriorate". This deterioration was involuntary and very much imposed upon him.
Overworking Kills
The body usually (but not always) knows best
Former Red Hat Chief (CEO), Who Decided to Leave the Company Earlier This Month, Talks About "Cloud Company Red Hat" to CNBC
shows a lack of foresight and dependence on buzzwords
IRC Proceedings: Monday, March 25, 2024
IRC logs for Monday, March 25, 2024
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
Discord Does Not Make Money, It's Spying on People and Selling Data/Control (38% is Allegedly Controlled by the Communist Party of China)
a considerable share exists
In At Least Two Nations Windows is Now Measured at 2% "Market Share" (Microsoft Really Does Not Want People to Notice That)
Ignore the mindless "AI"-washing
Internet Relay Chat (IRC) Still Has Hundreds of Thousands of Simultaneously-Online Unique Users
The scale of IRC