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04.09.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 8th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 2:01 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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mib_31gt4h linux Apr 08 00:02
mib_31gt4h the best Apr 08 00:03
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Balrog_ ?????? Apr 08 00:08
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balzac ?? Apr 08 00:44
Balrog_ I’m referring to mib_31gt4h Apr 08 00:49
Balrog_ schestowitz: http://entertainment.slashdot.org/artic… Apr 08 00:57
Balrog_ major league baseball dumps silver light for flash Apr 08 00:57
Balrog_ not the best, but at least no more of that sl :( Apr 08 00:57
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_Hicham_ Hi ! Apr 08 01:08
_Hicham_ Anyone in here? Apr 08 01:08
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balzac I left a stinging comment on fsdaily.com Apr 08 03:00
balzac http://www.fsdaily.com/Industry/Three_… Apr 08 03:00
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SenorMig29 I guess it goes without saying that Roy will be commenting on the /. posting about Monolight and Major League Baseball website Apr 08 03:03
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Ziggyfish good afternoon all Apr 08 03:19
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oiaohm_ I see the fall out from attacking tomtom is starting. Apr 08 03:34
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Ziggyfish oiaohm_, ??? Apr 08 03:47
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oiaohm_ More people are concidering if they should stay using .net and fat bacause of it Ziggyfish. Apr 08 03:49
Ziggyfish oh, ok Apr 08 03:49
Ziggyfish that’s good news Apr 08 03:50
oiaohm_ http://www.microsoft-watch.com/c…  Truth lies and stasticics Apr 08 03:52
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twitter :) Greetings from Bill Gate’s back yard, comrades! Apr 08 03:58
twitter I know, it’s late. Apr 08 03:59
oiaohm_ Pitty bill gates is not the head of MS any more or I would be suggesting land mining his backyard. Apr 08 04:05
Ziggyfish oiaohm_, why not? Apr 08 04:08
Ziggyfish :P Apr 08 04:19
twitter Can’t get justice from a dead man. Apr 08 04:20
twitter Better to strip him of his ill gotten loot than to do something cruel. Apr 08 04:20
Ziggyfish why not do both Apr 08 04:22
oiaohm_ Who said the land mines have to be killing versions. Apr 08 04:23
oiaohm_ Something nasty but not leathal. Apr 08 04:24
oiaohm_ Worst part about land mines is worring about where they are. Apr 08 04:25
oiaohm_ Not the killing bit. Apr 08 04:25
oiaohm_ http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/5/197  << Ok this is a really what the Linux bug. Apr 08 04:36
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twitter This place is corporate dominated. Apr 08 04:56
twitter Worse than most places. Apr 08 04:57
twitter And get this …. twitter thinks people here are extremely confrontational. Apr 08 04:57
twitter They say the craziest things.  It explains a lot of Steve Ballmer’s act.  It’s just how people are here. Apr 08 04:58
oiaohm_ Ok so the place needs to be shaken up. Apr 08 05:04
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twitter Oh, they are having quite a little shake up.  Wamu, M$ and other giants they trusted are leaving them screwed. Apr 08 05:11
twitter The one night stand wakes up sore, oh my. Apr 08 05:11
schestowitz YEah, Apr 08 05:26
schestowitz “One night stand” Apr 08 05:26
schestowitz See James P transcript on MS evangelism Apr 08 05:26
tessier Who is this? Apr 08 05:26
schestowitz Let me get it.. Apr 08 05:26
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/08… Apr 08 05:27
twitter Hi Roy! Apr 08 05:29
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twitter good night Apr 08 05:40
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schestowitz Animal rights group protests seal clubbing in World of Warcraft < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0… > Apr 08 05:45
schestowitz http://www.prwatch.org/node/8321 “The Canadian province of Alberta, which promotes the development of its tar sands oil, “has hired a team of consultants to improve [its] image in Washington ahead of climate-change talks.” The lobbyists, who Alberta is paying $40,000 a month, include former Michigan governor James Blanchard and former U.S. ambassador and Canadian diplomat Paul Fraser.” Apr 08 05:52
NeonFloss we all hate that province Apr 08 06:33
NeonFloss :p Apr 08 06:33
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schestowitz Citrix (+MSFT) poisons DMTF  http://www.tradingmarkets.com/… Apr 08 06:38
schestowitz Silly Wintel press cites Didiot http://www.newsfactor.com/news/Texas-Tells… Apr 08 06:49
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schestowitz http://techdirt.com/articles/2009… (Keep It Simple, Segway — Don’t Team Up With GM) Apr 08 07:09
schestowitz “A banker in Texas who basically stopped taking on any new loans for years as he thought things were going out of control. In fact, he barely worked at all — stopping by just a few hours a day, playing board games with his staff, and even laying off about half of his employees.” Apr 08 07:11
schestowitz “He did this while waiting for the market to collapse, knowing that things were way out of control. In return, he got investigated by regulators, who couldn’t understand why he wasn’t joining in the fun. ” http://techdirt.com/articles/200… Apr 08 07:11
schestowitz SJVN’s pessimism neglects the fact that opponents of GNU/Linux are weakening and the platform grows in developing nations… http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_desktop_neglect Apr 08 07:29
schestowitz China will not follow if US commits to deep CO2 cuts: official < http://www.platts.com/Natural%20Gas/News/8… > Apr 08 07:30
schestowitz I’m going to write about that Silver Lie failure of Microsoft, maybe today. Don’t know where to fit it yet… Apr 08 07:31
schestowitz Who would pay for this/ http://www.linuxpr.com/rel… Apr 08 07:43
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schestowitz According to this < http://timescorrespondents.typepad.com/charl… >, if your kid downloads a song, the whole family could be banned from the Net. Apr 08 08:02
schestowitz Effect of kickbacks? “I Want an Android Netbook, and I Want It With the Windows Version’s Specs” < http://ostatic.com/blog/i-want-an-… > Apr 08 08:05
schestowitz “A group of newspaper CEOs is planning a hush-hush meeting this week outside an industry convention. First, they’ll have a barely-legal chat about all charging for online content….” < http://gawker.com/5199886/a-big-sec… > Apr 08 08:05
PetoKraus schestowitz: yeah, the ostatic article is quite spot-on Apr 08 08:08
schestowitz I think Dell has similar screwups Apr 08 08:10
schestowitz Apple and the MAFIAA jack up the prices: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?… Apr 08 08:16
PetoKraus everything is going up the price Apr 08 08:17
PetoKraus i was buying a bike last week, cause my old one was stolen Apr 08 08:17
schestowitz That’s another thing: crime Apr 08 08:18
PetoKraus the some company’s entry level model is £50 more expensive (well, £100 for me, i got a deal last year) Apr 08 08:18
PetoKraus and the components are WORSE than 2008 models Apr 08 08:18
schestowitz How did it get stolen? Apr 08 08:18
schestowitz No chain? Apr 08 08:18
PetoKraus i had it locked with an U lock in the close of my flat Apr 08 08:18
PetoKraus and they whacked the railing it was attached to Apr 08 08:19
PetoKraus most probably with the lock Apr 08 08:19
PetoKraus it’s “organized crime” Apr 08 08:19
PetoKraus during that week, 2 other bikes were stolen from the same street Apr 08 08:19
PetoKraus it took them 90 minutes – i came home at 2pm, and when i left at 3.30 it wasn’t there. Apr 08 08:19
PetoKraus well well. Apr 08 08:20
schestowitz So up to 90 mins Apr 08 08:20
PetoKraus yeah Apr 08 08:20
PetoKraus i mean, they must’ve been waiting for me coming home Apr 08 08:20
PetoKraus anyway, i’m getting the new one insured, and I’m locking it IN the flat this time Apr 08 08:21
schestowitz I had stuff stolen in 2003, but never after Apr 08 08:22
schestowitz http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/04… KDE on copyrights… now that Microsoft lawyers spread lies about it, re: GPL Apr 08 08:22
schestowitz Anti-FOSS from MS lawyers: http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechn… Apr 08 08:23
PetoKraus well, this is the first thing I got stolen in what, 8 years Apr 08 08:23
PetoKraus apart from Apr 08 08:24
PetoKraus stealing music Apr 08 08:24
PetoKraus stealing videos Apr 08 08:24
PetoKraus etc Apr 08 08:24
PetoKraus :P Apr 08 08:24
schestowitz MS comes to the realisation that Windows is a scalability nightmare? http://blogs.zdnet.com/micr… Apr 08 08:25
schestowitz Some guy installed the Novell virus and uploaded a clip to YouTube just now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkPAo_lJAV8 Apr 08 08:27
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schestowitz Mark Taylor shows in nice graphs the effects of moving to Free software < http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/ar… > Apr 08 08:39
schestowitz Firefox gains a feature that I regularly use in Konqueror: http://www.pcworld.com/article/1626… Apr 08 08:40
schestowitz Bill Beebe comes back to GNU/Linux. http://blogbeebe.blogspot.co… “And it’s amazing. Everything. Just. Bloody. Works. Everything.” Apr 08 08:42
schestowitz PlateSpin made some headlines for Novell when it was acquired, but if you look closely, many of its chief people quit Novell (at least 3 I can think of) and the company’s product does not appear to have even gained much traction. Apr 08 08:44
schestowitz Novell is like Microsoft… when it buys something it just ruins it. Apr 08 08:45
schestowitz High uptime=bad. “this means a little over 3 years (like February 2006)… Wow… I said to myself: the old sysadmin didn’t care about kernel updates (@2.6.15). I said… hmm… maybe he was doing application upgrades at least; looking at mysql (@4.1.15 btw) this was up for 1043 days and 11:52 hrs.” Apr 08 08:50
schestowitz “Should I be impressed? or disappointed about a poor job and lack of interest in system maintenance and upgrades from the previous admin? I was disappointed of course…” http://www.ducea.com/2009/04/07/do… Apr 08 08:50
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schestowitz Zune not dead just yet… http://www.paidcontent.org/entry… Apr 08 08:58
schestowitz Blockbuster might be going bankrupt: http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-blo… Apr 08 09:00
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PetoKraus firefox under linux could use some PGO Apr 08 09:23
MinceR j0 Apr 08 09:24
Eruaran hello Apr 08 09:26
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PeterKraus oh well, wireless routers Apr 08 09:51
schestowitz Linux on your wrist: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news… Apr 08 09:51
PeterKraus need restart like every other day Apr 08 09:51
MinceR mine doesn’t Apr 08 09:54
PeterKraus i get 400ms ping just to the router Apr 08 09:57
PeterKraus ocassionally Apr 08 09:57
PeterKraus after 3-4 days or so Apr 08 09:57
PeterKraus it’s supposed to be a good one – Netgear Rangemax Apr 08 09:58
PeterKraus i must have bad luck Apr 08 09:58
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schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watc… .. Apr 08 10:39
oiaohm Looks like another month of panic Nvidia driver releases for Linux. Apr 08 10:41
oiaohm It feels like Nvidia is desperatly searching for some feature that users cannot get else where so they can hold onto there binary driver. Apr 08 10:42
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_Hicham_ Hi oiaohm! Apr 08 10:45
oiaohm Hi _Hicham_ Apr 08 10:45
_Hicham_ what r u up today? Apr 08 10:46
oiaohm Its after work _Hicham_ Apr 08 10:47
_Hicham_ u don’t work at home? Apr 08 10:51
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PeterKraus one would think that black trousers would be quite hard to get dirty Apr 08 11:16
PeterKraus well well Apr 08 11:16
PeterKraus oiaohm: or they are, literally, releasing after every commit :P Apr 08 11:17
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trmanco Microsoft’s Patent War Against Linux: TomTom Settles, Linux Loses: http://www.linuxplanet.com/lin… Apr 08 11:29
PeterKraus you have to be joking: http://online.wsj.com/articl… Apr 08 11:30
PeterKraus 1) what idiot would connect the power grid PC network to the internet? Apr 08 11:30
PeterKraus 2) yeah yeah, penetration, spies, blablabla Apr 08 11:30
trmanco bullshit Apr 08 11:31
PeterKraus i’d say so Apr 08 11:31
trmanco blame the Chinese and the Russians, it’s always like this Apr 08 11:31
PeterKraus yeah Apr 08 11:32
PeterKraus but i’m wondering Apr 08 11:32
PeterKraus having vital functions of nuclear plant on machine which is connected to the internet Apr 08 11:32
PeterKraus that’s asking for trouble Apr 08 11:32
PeterKraus and I don’t believe someone would do it. Apr 08 11:32
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trmanco there are people in the world to do these kind of crazy things Apr 08 11:35
PeterKraus i know a person who’d do it Apr 08 11:36
PeterKraus and didn’t have a problem with that Apr 08 11:36
trmanco http://www.stefanoforenza.com/tomboy… Apr 08 11:36
PeterKraus anyway Apr 08 11:37
PeterKraus ttyl Apr 08 11:37
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trmanco later Apr 08 11:37
oiaohm Black trouser + whiite chalk mess. Apr 08 11:46
DaemonFC these Ubuntu kernels are just getting worse and worse Apr 08 11:46
DaemonFC I compile my own and all the bugs go away Apr 08 11:46
DaemonFC :P Apr 08 11:46
trmanco I haven’t had a problem with Ubuntu kernels yet Apr 08 11:49
DaemonFC do yourself a favor and don’t look at their config Apr 08 11:49
DaemonFC the deeper you go the worse it gets Apr 08 11:50
DaemonFC you can easily spend half an hour or more correcting their settings Apr 08 11:50
trmanco never looked Apr 08 11:51
DaemonFC They have it trying to be a desktop, laptop, and server kernel all at once Apr 08 11:52
trmanco I don’t bother looking because as long as it works, it’s not a problem Apr 08 11:52
DaemonFC with generic compiler settings Apr 08 11:52
DaemonFC where everything possible is flipped on by default Apr 08 11:52
trmanco hehe Apr 08 11:52
DaemonFC oh, and they don’t select the Minstrel rate control algorithm Apr 08 11:53
DaemonFC so your 54M wifi adapter could be a 1M wifi adapter even if you’re 5 feet from the router Apr 08 11:54
DaemonFC B-) Apr 08 11:54
trmanco on what kernel version? Apr 08 11:54
DaemonFC 2.6.28 based Apr 08 11:55
DaemonFC hard to tell, because they patch it with things that were never even meant to be put in 2.6.28 Apr 08 11:55
trmanco true Apr 08 11:55
DaemonFC they even managed to snag a few from the 2.6.30 development branch!!! Apr 08 11:55
DaemonFC heh Apr 08 11:56
DaemonFC Usually they try to solve one problem, create 5 more, and then invalidate all your bug reports Apr 08 11:56
DaemonFC cause it works for them Apr 08 11:56
oiaohm That would be the patches they recently put forward to be merged. Apr 08 11:56
oiaohm Beware Ubuntu does have a few kernel patchs that are not in any branch. Apr 08 11:57
DaemonFC it’s easier to use official kernel source Apr 08 11:57
DaemonFC and build your own Apr 08 11:57
DaemonFC but they’ve screwed something in Ubuntu up Apr 08 11:58
DaemonFC cause the 2.6.30 rc1 won’t even boot Apr 08 11:58
DaemonFC it says init has been tainted then freezes Apr 08 11:58
DaemonFC for some reason, they put a patch in 2.6.29 that makes xfs_fsr freak out Apr 08 12:02
DaemonFC apparently it works now in 2.6.30 rc1 but that won’t boot :P Apr 08 12:02
DaemonFC I’ll just wait patiently Apr 08 12:02
trmanco http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/04/log… Apr 08 12:03
oiaohm Yes you have to replace init to use generic on Ubuntu. Apr 08 12:04
oiaohm Does a non standard syscall. Apr 08 12:04
oiaohm Ubuntu is very quickly becoming not Linux. Apr 08 12:05
DaemonFC no, it just stopped working at 2.6.29-git13 Apr 08 12:07
DaemonFC any kernel before that will boot Apr 08 12:07
DaemonFC it’s probably a kernel bug Apr 08 12:08
DaemonFC it’s usually better to just ride out a kernel version til they don’t support it anymore then move to the oldest one they support Apr 08 12:09
DaemonFC 2.6.29 is still incredibly buggy Apr 08 12:09
DaemonFC the new xfs_fsr problems are caused by a patch in 2.6.29 that requires a new version of xfsprogs Apr 08 12:10
DaemonFC I could probably be clever and just steal them from Debian Sid Apr 08 12:11
schestowitz trmanco: thanks, already in BN Apr 08 12:12
DaemonFC it’s a shame that XFS has had such a cold reception Apr 08 12:13
DaemonFC everyone is marvelling at the wonderful new features in Ext4 that have been in XFS for the last 15 years Apr 08 12:13
MinceR such as random data corruption? Apr 08 12:13
DaemonFC only if you’re an idiot Apr 08 12:14
DaemonFC or turn barriers off Apr 08 12:14
DaemonFC see first comment Apr 08 12:14
DaemonFC the problem with data corruption in Ext4 is not an Ext4 bug Apr 08 12:14
DaemonFC Ext4 never got the data because it was never REQUESTED to be committed to the disk Apr 08 12:15
DaemonFC by some criminally stupid people at GNOME/KDE etc Apr 08 12:15
MinceR or you get a power outage Apr 08 12:15
MinceR or your graphics driver hangs x Apr 08 12:15
DaemonFC no, you don’t understand how this is supposed to work Apr 08 12:15
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MinceR nobody does Apr 08 12:15
DaemonFC Ext3 has the same “problem” Apr 08 12:15
DaemonFC it just hides it Apr 08 12:16
MinceR all that matters is that POSIX doesn’t say that data shouldn’t be randomly destroyed, so this is compliant behavior Apr 08 12:16
DaemonFC If nothing requests data committed, Ext3 does it every 5 seconds anyway Apr 08 12:16
MinceR yes, ext3 hides the problem by not trashing my data Apr 08 12:16
MinceR how bad it is for me! Apr 08 12:16
DaemonFC Ext3 is hacking its way around an application problem Apr 08 12:16
DaemonFC that has nothing to do with the file system Apr 08 12:16
oiaohm Ever used nilfs Apr 08 12:16
DaemonFC and has trained programmers to be lazy, sloppy idiots Apr 08 12:16
DaemonFC MinceR: It slows the file system down considerably, and the point is that there is an ioctl to request data be comnmitted Apr 08 12:17
DaemonFC and bad apps don’t use that Apr 08 12:17
DaemonFC they rely on Ext3′s bad/incorrect behavior Apr 08 12:17
MinceR it has trained programmers in the past before it even existed Apr 08 12:18
MinceR it’s that bad! Apr 08 12:18
DaemonFC Really the entire way KDE and GNOME store settings is pretty fucking stupid Apr 08 12:18
MinceR because it doesn’t use a registry? :> Apr 08 12:18
oiaohm nilfs copes quite well with KDE and Gnome stupidity. Apr 08 12:18
DaemonFC tons of little bitty files that are constantly being written to Apr 08 12:18
MinceR constantly? really? Apr 08 12:19
DaemonFC frankly GNOME and KDE are both a pile of shit Apr 08 12:19
DaemonFC it’s jsut that KDE is worse Apr 08 12:19
oiaohm Its not constant. Apr 08 12:19
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MinceR it’s just that neither are a pile of shit and kde is better. Apr 08 12:19
MinceR but you’re trying to defend crap filesystems that kill data. Apr 08 12:19
DaemonFC MinceR: When you have a SET of files for every program Apr 08 12:20
oiaohm nilfs is a snapshoting filessytem. Apr 08 12:20
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DaemonFC where any one of them, probably most are not committed to disk at any time Apr 08 12:20
oiaohm Snapshotting is really the cure. Apr 08 12:20
DaemonFC you’re asking for data corruption Apr 08 12:20
MinceR and i’m not getting it Apr 08 12:20
MinceR i suffer so much Apr 08 12:20
oiaohm Registry under windows can completely cease to exist. Apr 08 12:20
DaemonFC Ext3 still has a 5 second window Apr 08 12:20
MinceR windows can completely cease to exist Apr 08 12:20
MinceR ;) Apr 08 12:20
oiaohm Yep 1 file completely left the face of earth. Apr 08 12:20
oiaohm No more windows boot at all. Apr 08 12:21
MinceR DaemonFC: ext3 writes metadata _after_ data was written Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFC MinceR: And you’re not Eric Sandeen or Ted Ts’o Apr 08 12:21
MinceR DaemonFC: that’s the key. Apr 08 12:21
MinceR DaemonFC: i’m happy i’m not Ted Ts’o Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFC I’d imagine they know what they’re saying Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFC that’s the difference Apr 08 12:21
MinceR i’d hate to explain my way around a fs bug i’ve written instead of fixing it. Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFC Ext3 is the file system with the incorrect behavior Apr 08 12:21
MinceR DaemonFC: well, i’m sure you don’t know what you’re saying Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFC I say they should refuse to fix it Apr 08 12:21
oiaohm Nilfs and btrfs both most likely heavly used in future both have snapshoting. Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFC and stop Ext3 from doing it Apr 08 12:21
MinceR i say you should use /dev/null as your block device Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFC and point people at the GNOME/KDE fucktards Apr 08 12:22
oiaohm Ext3 is doing data proteciton correct. Apr 08 12:22
MinceR it’s POSIX compliant! Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFC when they lose data for no reason Apr 08 12:22
oiaohm With snapshotting. Apr 08 12:22
MinceR better yet, use windows 3.1 Apr 08 12:22
trmanco Apr 08 12:22
trmanco FAT Apr 08 12:22
oiaohm You can always roll back before thes stuff up DaemonFC Apr 08 12:22
MinceR then you’ll be free from gnome, kde, modern filesystems, etc. Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFC There is really no POSIX way of handling an unclean shutdown Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFC so you lose again Apr 08 12:22
MinceR so it’s forbidden by your religion to handle it? Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFC tradition says play back the journal even if it contains garbage Apr 08 12:23
MinceR if it isn’t in POSIX then it’s forbidden to innovate? Apr 08 12:23
oiaohm There is no way ever of perfectly handling a unclean shutdown without building in filesystem support for it. Apr 08 12:23
MinceR i’d rather have a file with a little garbage in it than one that’s truncated to 0 bytes Apr 08 12:23
MinceR or filled with zeroes Apr 08 12:23
oiaohm Max suppot for unclean is nilfs. Apr 08 12:23
DaemonFC If it’s on a hard disk, it’s at risk of a million things that can and do go wrong Apr 08 12:23
DaemonFC I’m sure if your disk crashes, Ext3 was at fault Apr 08 12:23
DaemonFC because it didn’t stop the head from colliding Apr 08 12:24
oiaohm Under nilfs if you have tones of diskspace nothing ever gets deleted. Apr 08 12:24
schestowitz Just the other day we had a Word user here whose file was zeroed IIRC Apr 08 12:24
MinceR it would probably be better if on the case of corruption it would be copied or moved to /lost+found though Apr 08 12:24
schestowitz Nice going, Windows. Apr 08 12:24
oiaohm You delete a file under nilfs it still there in the checkpoints. Apr 08 12:24
oiaohm You edit a file unedited is still there in the checkpoints. Apr 08 12:24
DaemonFC I’ve never had XFS lose anything, I’ve had multiple Ext3 columes before I started using XFS that had gotten to where they would not boot up Apr 08 12:25
trmanco schestowitz, that’s a feature… to save space Apr 08 12:25
DaemonFC usually it woulkd crash and fsck would spend HOURS and then admit the Ext3 partition was fucked Apr 08 12:25
DaemonFC and that was that Apr 08 12:25
oiaohm What mode were you using. Apr 08 12:25
DaemonFC so you make your backups you take your chances Apr 08 12:25
oiaohm Please don’t be writeback. Apr 08 12:25
DaemonFC but XFS is a much better fs than Ext3 Apr 08 12:26
oiaohm That was always a sucker to go the way of dead. Apr 08 12:26
DaemonFC ordered Apr 08 12:26
oiaohm I guess early on. Apr 08 12:26
MinceR i’ve had XFS lose files but not ext3 Apr 08 12:26
oiaohm And got one of the ordered bugs. Apr 08 12:26
MinceR therefore (by your logic), ext3 is a much better fs than XFS. Apr 08 12:26
MinceR QED. Apr 08 12:26
oiaohm journal mode of ext3 is solid. Apr 08 12:26
DaemonFC trusting any file system on a hard disk is like saying you can poke one hole in a condom or 3 Apr 08 12:27
DaemonFC and saying the one with one is more trustworthy Apr 08 12:27
MinceR like i said, use /dev/null. Apr 08 12:27
oiaohm Also journal mode is slower. Apr 08 12:27
DaemonFC Ext3 uses an inordinate amount of space for the journal Apr 08 12:27
MinceR oiaohm: afaik ordered writes are just as solid Apr 08 12:27
DaemonFC and other overhead Apr 08 12:27
oiaohm Price of data protection. Apr 08 12:28
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MinceR also, /dev/null doesn’t even rely on HDD hardware so you avoid those problems too! Apr 08 12:28
DaemonFC ordered is slower than writeback, but it’s stil lcompletely possible to have a file system that’s corrupt beyond repair, or a clean fsck with data loss Apr 08 12:28
DaemonFC (my favorite) Apr 08 12:28
oiaohm Ext3 is not protected from harddrive defects. Apr 08 12:29
DaemonFC XFS has better disk tools than Ext* anyway Apr 08 12:29
oiaohm Neither is XFS Apr 08 12:29
vida18 8 April, 2009: KOffice 2.0 RC 1 released Apr 08 12:29
vida18 http://www.koffice.org/releases/2…. Apr 08 12:29
DaemonFC xfs_repair can at least get the partition to mount again if nothing else Apr 08 12:29
DaemonFC e2fsck can’t even give you that Apr 08 12:29
DaemonFC anyway, XFS was built for an OS that was much more capable than Linux Apr 08 12:31
DaemonFC probably still is in some ways Apr 08 12:31
DaemonFC and for machines that were much more powerful than a PC Apr 08 12:31
DaemonFC and probably still are Apr 08 12:31
DaemonFC in outfits that most likely had a UPS regardless of file system cause if they get any data loss they lose millions of dollars Apr 08 12:32
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DaemonFC anyway, MinceRs point is moot anyway when a 15 minute backup battery in a surge protector is all of like $30 Apr 08 12:33
oiaohm DaemonFC there are other tools to use other than e2fsck Apr 08 12:33
oiaohm on ext2/3/4 to bring them back to life. Apr 08 12:33
DaemonFC e2fsprogs is a joke Apr 08 12:34
oiaohm e2fsck will not just create new structs. Apr 08 12:34
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oiaohm I have had xfs_repair give a user like a blank drive before. Apr 08 12:34
oiaohm Not nice. Apr 08 12:34
oiaohm Personally I prefer it to fail so data recovery can be done. Apr 08 12:35
iwmw may be that drive contained windows xp installation Apr 08 12:35
DaemonFC was it MOUNTED? Apr 08 12:35
MinceR DaemonFC: and how do you propose a surge protector should protect against driver bugs? Apr 08 12:35
DaemonFC that’s the best way to fuck a file system in Linux no matter what Apr 08 12:35
DaemonFC fsck while mounted Apr 08 12:35
trmanco anybody heard of Gnote? Apr 08 12:35
oiaohm No it was not mounted. Apr 08 12:35
trmanco c++ port of tomboy Apr 08 12:36
oiaohm Person had the idea that xfs_repair would get them out of trouble. Apr 08 12:36
trmanco novell/monosoft just took a kick in th arse Apr 08 12:36
DaemonFC MinceR: Turn the computer off and cancel your AOL? Apr 08 12:36
oiaohm xfs_repair will always give a mountable partion even if it make it like a blank drive. Apr 08 12:36
DaemonFC shit, I don’t know B-) Apr 08 12:36
iwmw trmanco: in which way? Apr 08 12:36
MinceR DaemonFC: go back to your friends at ##windows Apr 08 12:36
oiaohm Personally I hate xfs_repair Apr 08 12:37
DaemonFC because we know that all hardware and software is 100% reliable Apr 08 12:37
oiaohm It has a habit of just making my job of getting data back harder. Apr 08 12:37
DaemonFC and if it jsut wasn’;t for XFS fucking it all up Apr 08 12:37
*DaemonFC busts out laughing Apr 08 12:37
iwmw *teasing* DaemonFC got a windows friends XD Apr 08 12:37
oiaohm I know hardware is not reliable Apr 08 12:38
DaemonFC Ext3 is pretty damned ugly no matter how much lipstick you put on it Apr 08 12:38
iwmw nothing is realiable while you rely on it Apr 08 12:38
oiaohm Ext4 will be the last in the Ext line of filesystems. Apr 08 12:38
oiaohm XFS will also have to go by by in time. Apr 08 12:39
MinceR ext4 isn’t only damned ugly, it also loses data Apr 08 12:39
DaemonFC the recoverability is thanks to hacks and it being primitive, slow, and prone to fragmentation Apr 08 12:39
MinceR so thanks, i’ll go with ext3 for now. Apr 08 12:39
MinceR and you’ll always have /dev/null. Apr 08 12:39
*iwmw suspects that ext2 is quite enough Apr 08 12:39
DaemonFC I’d never use Ext3 again Apr 08 12:39
oiaohm ext2 your are nuts iwmw Apr 08 12:39
DaemonFC nah, XFS is the best that Linux has Apr 08 12:39
MinceR …if you like losing data Apr 08 12:40
DaemonFC that’s only cause ZFS doesn’t run on it Apr 08 12:40
DaemonFC and BtrFS is still experimental Apr 08 12:40
oiaohm XFS and EXT3 are about equal in there own ways. Apr 08 12:40
iwmw … every toad boasts it’s swamp Apr 08 12:40
MinceR ZFS doesn’t run on it because sun is scared shitless of Linux Apr 08 12:40
DaemonFC no, it’s cause Richard Hippie Stallman says their license is not GPL compatible Apr 08 12:40
DaemonFC if Stallman changed his mind, ZFS could go in Apr 08 12:41
DaemonFC there’s nothing non-free about CDDL Apr 08 12:41
DaemonFC that’s what happens when you let a religious group loose developing an OS Apr 08 12:41
iwmw DaemonFC: hey, smoking weed is useful Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFC Well, if you hate CDDL Apr 08 12:42
MinceR there’s nothing non-free about CDDL, the only tiny little problem with it is that it isn’t GPL-compatible Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFC stop using Firefox Apr 08 12:42
MinceR that’s the whole reason CDDL exists Apr 08 12:42
MinceR and that’s the only reason Sun uses it on ZFS Apr 08 12:42
trmanco what’s wrong with Firefox? it’s success? Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFC they based CDDL on the Mozilla license Apr 08 12:42
oiaohm Firefox is not GPL. Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFC so Firefox is not free Apr 08 12:42
MinceR because as i’ve mentioned, they’re scared shitless of Linux Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFC by your definition Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFC or Stallman’s Apr 08 12:42
MinceR they know their dinosaur Slowlaris is dying and they believe this will save it Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFC why would they be? Apr 08 12:43
oiaohm CDDL has a few things altered from Mozillas licences. Apr 08 12:43
iwmw DaemonFC: so what’s the most gpl and good browser? Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFC Solaris is better in many ways Apr 08 12:43
MinceR perhaps in your imagination. Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFC but all the software I use is Linux-only Apr 08 12:43
MinceR yes, we know, you use Linux and you hate every single bit about it Apr 08 12:43
oiaohm Solarias is better in some ways. Apr 08 12:43
MinceR we feel so sorry for you. Apr 08 12:43
oiaohm Lack of hardware support for solaris killed it. Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFC Have fun with Ext3 and 4k stacks Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFC B-) Apr 08 12:43
iwmw guys, what’s the most gpl and sane browser? Apr 08 12:43
MinceR have fun with random data loss Apr 08 12:44
MinceR sane browser? that would be a good idea. Apr 08 12:44
DaemonFC if XFS has any flaws it’s because it’s too good for Linux Apr 08 12:44
oiaohm konq is gpl. Apr 08 12:44
MinceR lol Apr 08 12:44
iwmw lol, konq is not good yet Apr 08 12:44
trmanco galean Apr 08 12:44
trmanco sorry, Epiphany Apr 08 12:45
oiaohm All current filesystems have flaws DaemonFC Apr 08 12:45
oiaohm XFS is just getting feature long in tooth. Apr 08 12:45
DaemonFC Konqueror: Great until you try to load a flash applet, try to hit ctrl+enter, try to autoscroll, or try to sign into XBOX forums or your bank’s website Apr 08 12:45
oiaohm Lot of new features need to be added to XFS to keep up. Apr 08 12:45
iwmw trmanco: galean is 3 years old Apr 08 12:45
trmanco galeon too Apr 08 12:45
iwmw (last version of it) Apr 08 12:45
DaemonFC there’s quite a bit of work being done on XFS in 2.6.30 Apr 08 12:46
trmanco LOL, 2006, you’re right Apr 08 12:46
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DaemonFC 61 patches landed in the merge window alone Apr 08 12:46
iwmw i feel like installing epiphany Apr 08 12:46
DaemonFC not BtrFS-killer stuff, but it’ll keep it going Apr 08 12:46
DaemonFC Linux has a major Not Invented Here syndrome a lot of the time Apr 08 12:47
DaemonFC I mean they threw away Reiser4 entirely, and went with an upgrade of Ext3!?!? Apr 08 12:47
DaemonFC They’re smoking crack Apr 08 12:47
oiaohm XFS does not have file based snapshotting. Apr 08 12:48
DaemonFC and Ext4 does? Apr 08 12:48
oiaohm Ext4 is the last of its line. Apr 08 12:48
DaemonFC Ext4=Welcome to 1994 Apr 08 12:48
iwmw watch them start ext5 right before the release of ext4 Apr 08 12:48
oiaohm Because it cannot be updated to include the features systems in future will need. Apr 08 12:48
oiaohm No there is no Ext5 Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFC BtrFS will replace it Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFC I’m pretty sure Apr 08 12:49
iwmw ha, they are preparing it as a surprise, oiaohm Apr 08 12:49
oiaohm That is the path. Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFC you see how eager Linus is to get his hands on it Apr 08 12:49
MinceR how complete was reiser4? Apr 08 12:49
oiaohm BtrFS is the one after ext4 iwmw Apr 08 12:49
iwmw not complete, MinceR Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFC BtrFS will be able to upgrade over Ext3/4 Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFC in place Apr 08 12:49
oiaohm BtrFS can also do that with XFS Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFC MinceR: Reiser4 is complete Apr 08 12:49
MinceR did kernel developers understand the design of reiser4 completely? Apr 08 12:50
iwmw oiaohm: is btrfs user-ready? Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFC and you can patch your kernel to use it Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFC or use an mm kernel Apr 08 12:50
oiaohm Not yet iwmw Apr 08 12:50
oiaohm Its the development line iwmw Apr 08 12:50
MinceR (i thought it was dropped because they relied on Hans Reiser to finish it) Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFC MinceR: Nothing in Reiser4 requires Hans Reiser, it is GPL’d Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFC and the kernel guys are jerks Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFC even though Many NameSys employees still maintain it Apr 08 12:50
MinceR sure, but someone has to understand the design to really build on it/modify it Apr 08 12:51
MinceR ic Apr 08 12:51
iwmw what’s the best one to use at home for speed of usual file ops without searching or smth, oiaohm? Apr 08 12:51
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iwmw i mean stable and fast Apr 08 12:51
DaemonFC MinceR: You’d like Reiser4, it was atomic Apr 08 12:51
oiaohm Stable is a very changable word. Apr 08 12:51
DaemonFC meaning it could never allow an incomplete transaction to bork the file system Apr 08 12:51
MinceR i heard it was going to be very innovative Apr 08 12:51
MinceR with new ways to organize files, perhaps… or was that another NameSys project? Apr 08 12:52
oiaohm And due to driver defects Reiser4 can still take it self out. Apr 08 12:52
iwmw yeah, it shouldn’t lose data when i press reset and no data loss on it’s own wanting Apr 08 12:52
DaemonFC If you do a side by side comparison of file systems on Wikipedia Apr 08 12:52
DaemonFC Reiser4 and BtrFS have the best features Apr 08 12:52
oiaohm Nilfs has it place too. Apr 08 12:53
DaemonFC Reiser4 had a lot of really neat ideas Apr 08 12:53
DaemonFC and all the good stuff from XFS Apr 08 12:53
DaemonFC B-) Apr 08 12:53
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NILFS  << Read this devil DaemonFC Apr 08 12:53
DaemonFC 8 Exbibyte files? Apr 08 12:54
DaemonFC damn Apr 08 12:54
DaemonFC that’s the same as XFS Apr 08 12:55
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oiaohm Yep but stronger Apr 08 12:55
DaemonFC XFS has a max volume size of 16 Exbibytes Apr 08 12:55
DaemonFC Ext4′s is 1 Exbibyte Apr 08 12:55
oiaohm There is nilfs2 as well. Apr 08 12:55
DaemonFC but due to limitations in e2fsprogs…… Apr 08 12:56
DaemonFC Ext4 is limited to 16 TB Apr 08 12:56
DaemonFC just like Ext3 Apr 08 12:56
DaemonFC yeah, that’s still huge by desktop PC standards Apr 08 12:57
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DaemonFC but it’s not much by the standards of some professional uses Apr 08 12:57
DaemonFC brb Apr 08 12:57
oiaohm nilfs is great for configuration directories. Apr 08 12:57
MinceR oiaohm: nilfs seems really nice Apr 08 12:58
oiaohm Its not perfect. Apr 08 12:59
oiaohm http://www.nilfs.org/en/current_status.html  << As plained features show. Apr 08 12:59
oiaohm But nilfs2 enters mainline with 2.6.30 Apr 08 12:59
oiaohm Simple fact stuff like ext and xfs are going to become old hat most likely by end of year. Apr 08 13:00
MinceR “Simultaneously mountable” means using the same SAN volume from multiple machines at the same time? Apr 08 13:00
MinceR (read-write?) Apr 08 13:00
PeterKraus hmm Apr 08 13:01
MinceR i’m not really sure filesystems can become “old hat” in one year :> Apr 08 13:01
oiaohm main mount read-write Apr 08 13:01
trmanco versioning filesystem? Apr 08 13:01
PeterKraus i don’t think i’ll switch soon Apr 08 13:01
PeterKraus it’ll require too much work Apr 08 13:01
MinceR btrfs & co still need a lot of testing Apr 08 13:01
iwmw i gonna switch to fat32… Apr 08 13:01
MinceR and support in major distro releases Apr 08 13:01
iwmw and use wubi Apr 08 13:01
MinceR iwmw: ew Apr 08 13:01
oiaohm snapshots mounts read only as many as you want MinceR Apr 08 13:01
MinceR i know Apr 08 13:01
iwmw MinceR: after all these talks Apr 08 13:01
oiaohm That is what simultaneously mountable is about. Apr 08 13:02
MinceR oiaohm: when/how are checkpoints created — automatically or manually? Apr 08 13:02
oiaohm nilfs automatically creates checkpoints. Apr 08 13:02
MinceR oiaohm: so simultaneous mounts are for readonly snapshots only, right? Apr 08 13:02
oiaohm You turn the ones you want out of the checkpoints into snapshots. Apr 08 13:03
MinceR ic Apr 08 13:03
oiaohm Ie it will garbage collect checkpoints not snapshots. Apr 08 13:03
oiaohm Basically its a delayed deleting filesystem. Apr 08 13:03
oiaohm What can be really really handy at times. Apr 08 13:04
PeterKraus i wonder what’s the storage req Apr 08 13:04
oiaohm nilfs is more storage using. Apr 08 13:04
oiaohm fall back locations are not free of course. Apr 08 13:04
MinceR i see some things are still missing Apr 08 13:05
oiaohm Between nilfs and btrfs we will have two great filesystems. Apr 08 13:05
oiaohm In time. Apr 08 13:05
oiaohm making most of the filesystems we use now look like crap. Apr 08 13:06
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oiaohm snapshots also make things like timevault and equal look extreamly disk wasting. Apr 08 13:06
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oiaohm No limit on the number of snapshots until the volume gets full << yes nilfs only starts overwriting files when disk gets full. Apr 08 13:08
PeterKraus well yeah Apr 08 13:08
oiaohm btrfs design should allow it to upgrade any filesystem to its self. Apr 08 13:08
PeterKraus yeah Apr 08 13:08
PeterKraus that’s what i’m looking for Apr 08 13:09
PeterKraus if it gives me smooth transition from JFS Apr 08 13:09
PeterKraus comparable stability Apr 08 13:09
PeterKraus and better performance Apr 08 13:09
DaemonFC well if it can do that, then why can’t it upgrade itself to new on-disk formats? Apr 08 13:09
PeterKraus i’m sold Apr 08 13:09
oiaohm It can downgrade as well DaemonFC Apr 08 13:09
oiaohm We just have to wait for btrfs to complete. Apr 08 13:10
oiaohm You now see why lots of us are following it PeterKraus Apr 08 13:10
PeterKraus well Apr 08 13:10
PeterKraus i don’t because i’m satisfied with JFS Apr 08 13:10
DaemonFC I’ve been a huge fan of XFS ever since I used IRIX Apr 08 13:10
DaemonFC but XFS didn’t used to be all that stable on Linux because of deficiencies in Linux Apr 08 13:11
PeterKraus heh Apr 08 13:11
DaemonFC that’s mostly been ironed out in recent kernels Apr 08 13:11
PeterKraus i didn’t use XFS Apr 08 13:11
PeterKraus at all Apr 08 13:11
DaemonFC Linux 2.4 was a joke Apr 08 13:11
PeterKraus :D Apr 08 13:11
schestowitz Hey, iwmw. Thanks. Apr 08 13:11
DaemonFC but it was enough to give XFS a bad name Apr 08 13:11
DaemonFC :P Apr 08 13:12
iwmw schestowitz: about what? Apr 08 13:12
iwmw i didn’t seem to do anything here, just asking stupid questions Apr 08 13:13
PeterKraus heh Apr 08 13:13
PeterKraus i am a bit sad about the state of Reiser4 Apr 08 13:13
PeterKraus i wanted to try it Apr 08 13:13
PeterKraus but it seems most of the good ideas from it went into btrfs Apr 08 13:14
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFS…  Really if you could work out how to get snapshotting into jfs it would be worth while keeping around. Apr 08 13:14
iwmw yeah, none of you can be satisfied that’s already stable and working and is kinda enough Apr 08 13:14
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iwmw you definitely need that latest builds of some unstable but promising fs Apr 08 13:14
PeterKraus iwmw: i’m satisfied with my old trusty JFS :) Apr 08 13:14
schestowitz oiaohm: Konq is Lgpl AFAIK Apr 08 13:14
iwmw PeterKraus: and i’m satisfied with ext3 Apr 08 13:14
oiaohm I do data recovery. Apr 08 13:15
iwmw i don’t screw my filesystems Apr 08 13:15
oiaohm I get lots and lots people who do stupid things. Apr 08 13:15
oiaohm Like deleting files then wanting them back. Apr 08 13:15
iwmw yeah, they use windows Apr 08 13:15
oiaohm So I want something that can run idiot proff. Apr 08 13:16
iwmw it’s common thing in windows to delete something that you “didn’t want to” Apr 08 13:16
oiaohm Yes under windows they empty the recycle bin as well. Apr 08 13:16
iwmw i didn’t do that for 10 years already may be Apr 08 13:16
oiaohm Best protection for them is snapshotting filesystems of some form. Apr 08 13:16
iwmw yeah, weekly backuping Apr 08 13:17
oiaohm and backups. Apr 08 13:17
iwmw of /dev/random Apr 08 13:17
oiaohm Just put it this way I have a lot higher standard on what a file system has to be. Apr 08 13:17
oiaohm At the rate btrfs and nilfs are developing I might at long last have filesystems I like. Apr 08 13:18
oiaohm ZFS almost made it. Apr 08 13:18
schestowitz iwmw: I was catching up Apr 08 13:19
iwmw XD Apr 08 13:19
MinceR oiaohm: well, you could use LVM to make snapshots under JFS Apr 08 13:20
schestowitz Didn’t H-P released a UNIX FS as gplv2 about 8 months ago?? Apr 08 13:20
schestowitz No word since then… Apr 08 13:20
MinceR i almost learned how to do that with LVM+ext3 but then btrfs was announced :) Apr 08 13:20
MinceR schestowitz: i faintly remember it Apr 08 13:20
oiaohm Per file based is what I prefered to have.  MinceR Apr 08 13:20
MinceR but it was mentioned more as a source for snippets to implement some new fs for some reason Apr 08 13:21
schestowitz Many FSs arrive just to die Apr 08 13:21
schestowitz Lots of competition Apr 08 13:21
oiaohm Its a lot lighter on disk access. Apr 08 13:21
oiaohm and usage Apr 08 13:21
schestowitz But LogFS for example is optimised for other purposes Apr 08 13:21
MinceR is there an FS that can make a snapshot that isn’t of the whole volume? Apr 08 13:21
schestowitz NTFS/FAT* are like Windows… one size fits all, implemented poorly. Apr 08 13:21
oiaohm NTFS and FAT are both getting to the end of there useful lives. Apr 08 13:23
oiaohm MinceR: nilfs does snapshots per file. Apr 08 13:23
MinceR ic Apr 08 13:24
MinceR i almost switched to ext3cow Apr 08 13:24
MinceR then i noticed that you can’t delete snapshots. :/ Apr 08 13:24
oiaohm Early nilfs you could not either. Apr 08 13:25
oiaohm reason why nilfs2 appeared Apr 08 13:25
schestowitz Microsoft will deliver WinFS Apr 08 13:26
schestowitz …when Duken Nukem Forver is out Apr 08 13:26
iwmw they said they are developing it XD Apr 08 13:26
schestowitz And when Zune “f*ing kills” iPod Apr 08 13:26
schestowitz I heard that Oracle wanted ZFS but went ahead of btrfs because of licensing Apr 08 13:27
MinceR schestowitz: will WinFS be used on the Phantom console? :> Apr 08 13:27
schestowitz Oracle not competes with Sun (mysql) Apr 08 13:27
oiaohm btrfs snapshots are whole volume but iniside the same volume. Apr 08 13:28
MinceR and will it ship with a Glaze3D GPU? :> Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz MinceR: they said winfs won’t die Apr 08 13:28
MinceR :D Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz They tossed it for people to play with Apr 08 13:28
oiaohm So blocks can be shared so saving on disk space MinceR Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz Like Longhorn Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz And Singularity Apr 08 13:28
MinceR well, something that wasn’t even born won’t die Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz Will Singularity ever produce anythiing? Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz No. Apr 08 13:28
schestowitz They call it a “research project” Apr 08 13:28
iwmw it’s better with torrents killing zune and ipod Apr 08 13:29
schestowitz Codename for “failure” Apr 08 13:29
schestowitz “We didn’t fail, it was just research” Apr 08 13:29
schestowitz WinFS had some promise when they canned it Apr 08 13:29
schestowitz The promise that something would come out of it Apr 08 13:29
oiaohm WinFS had a problem. Apr 08 13:29
MinceR that’s the kind of “research” they do and are so damn proud of Apr 08 13:29
oiaohm They were trying to make historic NTFS act like a database. Apr 08 13:29
schestowitz But the Windows kernel is apparently too complex even for 10s of 1000s of MS engineers to put WinFS-like functionality in Apr 08 13:30
MinceR others call such things “failed projects” and call actual research research. Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz Linux already has that Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz Nothing ever came out of the WinFS thing since 2006 Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz Nothing Apr 08 13:30
MinceR has anyone even seen winfs work at all? Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz Nada Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz Zilch Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz With longhorn, at least some people kicked it about Apr 08 13:30
oiaohm Define work MinceR Apr 08 13:30
schestowitz Then Microsoft issued a C&D Apr 08 13:30
*iwmw wants 8EiB hdd to create 8eib files Apr 08 13:30
iwmw with nilfs Apr 08 13:31
MinceR oiaohm: store, retrieve and list files Apr 08 13:31
schestowitz Singularity — no word, either Apr 08 13:31
oiaohm If you call file create times make 50 times longer ok MinceR Apr 08 13:31
MinceR (and to do a kind of query winfs was supposed to offer as new stuff) Apr 08 13:31
schestowitz Singularity was shelved some months ago, then Mary Jo Foley and MS ilk blogged about it Apr 08 13:31
oiaohm Same with file update times. Apr 08 13:31
schestowitz Nothing since Apr 08 13:31
*magentar (n=magentar@94.79.142.94) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 08 13:31
schestowitz It’s abandonware Apr 08 13:31
MinceR i doubt that fits the definition of abandonware Apr 08 13:32
oiaohm MS has only done minor things in the core of there OS. Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz cause of the licence? Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz Well, watch the licence. Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz It’s abhorrent Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz Something about being permitted only in academia Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz Not for profit Apr 08 13:32
oiaohm Linux is ahead in cpu support. Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz Even the GPL is FAT better Apr 08 13:32
oiaohm MS brags about getting up to 255 Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz It encourages making money Apr 08 13:32
schestowitz Microsoft is against it Apr 08 13:33
schestowitz Microsoft OSS — for MS freetards Apr 08 13:33
MinceR because it wasn’t ever released Apr 08 13:33
schestowitz Linux does 2^12 CPUs Apr 08 13:33
MinceR abandonware is old sw that was released (and sold, if applicable) for a while and the owner stopped caring since, so it’s unobtainable from them now, and so other groups are spreading it Apr 08 13:34
iwmw wow Apr 08 13:34
schestowitz MS does 2^8 you say, but I think more, oiaohm Apr 08 13:34
oiaohm MS clusters above that. Apr 08 13:34
schestowitz oiaohm: no way for Microsoft to win this Apr 08 13:34
schestowitz Need inspired development Apr 08 13:34
schestowitz Big (>1000 cpus) machines run Linux Apr 08 13:34
schestowitz Top500 runs Linux 94% of the time, so IBM keeps paying for development Apr 08 13:35
oiaohm And 4096 machines are starting to look small too. Apr 08 13:35
schestowitz People like T’so Apr 08 13:35
oiaohm There are companies who want 2^16 or greater core numbers. Apr 08 13:36
oiaohm In equal to a single system. Apr 08 13:36
oiaohm Call it a never be done thing. Apr 08 13:36
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluegene “# A large number of nodes (scalable in increments of 1024 up to at least 65,536)” Apr 08 13:36
schestowitz That’s 2^16 Apr 08 13:37
schestowitz (or more0 Apr 08 13:37
oiaohm When you know the numbers 255 in single system not clustered is not even a computer in supper computer users minds. Apr 08 13:38
iwmw supercomputer users are not users Apr 08 13:38
schestowitz Clients Apr 08 13:38
iwmw with terminals Apr 08 13:38
oiaohm I was refering to the company as the user. Apr 08 13:39
schestowitz Weather forecasts.. Apr 08 13:39
trmanco 2^16 cpus,,,,, insane Apr 08 13:40
iwmw oh… seers are quite enough to predict the weather Apr 08 13:40
*trmanco wipes his mouth Apr 08 13:40
iwmw they are much cheaper Apr 08 13:40
oiaohm There are plans to build bigger trmanco Apr 08 13:40
trmanco wow Apr 08 13:40
oiaohm Yes 2^16 appears as a single machine from the running OS. Apr 08 13:41
trmanco I still live with, lets see now Apr 08 13:41
trmanco 1 Apr 08 13:41
oiaohm Is kinda scary. Apr 08 13:41
oiaohm Then cluster them. Apr 08 13:41
oiaohm You have to remember 4096 basically fits in a bar fridge. Apr 08 13:41
iwmw why would you want to cluster 2^16 cpus? Apr 08 13:41
oiaohm It gets worse. Apr 08 13:42
oiaohm They are thinking about hybred gpu cpu at 2^16 size. Apr 08 13:42
iwmw perverts Apr 08 13:42
trmanco :o Apr 08 13:42
iwmw it’s intel’s dream Apr 08 13:42
iwmw to run free raytracing library on it Apr 08 13:43
oiaohm GPU can be used for general data processing. Apr 08 13:43
iwmw they didn’t even wanna implement it themselves Apr 08 13:43
oiaohm They are very good at processing dna and other things. Apr 08 13:43
iwmw dna processing… what do you want to process in there? Apr 08 13:43
oiaohm Maybe it might be big enough to computer replicate a human cell. Apr 08 13:43
trmanco pipelining? Apr 08 13:44
trmanco something that cpu’s don’t have… i think Apr 08 13:44
iwmw what? Apr 08 13:44
oiaohm Where is the fasterst data processing chip in most computers? Apr 08 13:45
trmanco gpu? Apr 08 13:45
iwmw gpu Apr 08 13:45
iwmw lol Apr 08 13:45
oiaohm GPU by mills Apr 08 13:45
trmanco I’ve read this somewhere Apr 08 13:45
trmanco long time ago Apr 08 13:45
oiaohm Most can simply chew threw 16 times as much as the fastest cpu. Apr 08 13:45
iwmw yeah, but they chew in a very limited way Apr 08 13:46
trmanco people would use there gpu for the distributed computing thing Apr 08 13:46
iwmw even though they do it much faster Apr 08 13:46
trmanco stuff like folding Apr 08 13:46
oiaohm Yep. Apr 08 13:46
oiaohm folding predicting dna. Apr 08 13:46
trmanco yeah, that stuff Apr 08 13:46
oiaohm Very complex operation. Apr 08 13:46
*iwmw suspects that gpu is not suited for that stuff Apr 08 13:47
iwmw gpus don’t support complex operations Apr 08 13:47
oiaohm Folding home project showed it clear that it is. Apr 08 13:47
oiaohm DNA is really not that complex. Apr 08 13:47
oiaohm You have a crap load of it. Apr 08 13:47
*zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@210.212.255.131) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 08 13:48
oiaohm And somewhere in there is the bit of information you need. Apr 08 13:48
iwmw yeah, plenty of dna spam Apr 08 13:48
DaemonFC why would I give my CPU time Apr 08 13:48
DaemonFC to a drug company Apr 08 13:48
DaemonFC for free? Apr 08 13:48
iwmw some people like to spam with dna info Apr 08 13:48
oiaohm Viruses Apr 08 13:48
zer0c00l Hugh Jackman Heartbroken by Wolverine Leak:http://www.people.com/people/arti… :P Apr 08 13:48
iwmw oiaohm: no, it’s pr0n Apr 08 13:49
oiaohm There are a lot of trapped viruses in your dna iwmw Apr 08 13:49
iwmw so every other adult male should be put to jail Apr 08 13:49
trmanco http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bi… Apr 08 13:50
iwmw hm… something’s really wrong about ati-nvidia Apr 08 13:52
zer0c00l trmanco, what is that? Apr 08 13:52
trmanco zer0c00l, stats from Standford’s folding thing Apr 08 13:53
trmanco Stanford’s* Apr 08 13:53
oiaohm Great the most usless addition exofs Apr 08 13:53
oiaohm You need a object based storage back end to use it. Apr 08 13:54
iwmw zer0c00l: it’s just a statistics on how many hardware participated in computing distributed stuff Apr 08 13:55
zer0c00l :) Apr 08 13:55
zer0c00l Folding@home is a distributed computing project — people from throughout the world download and run software to band together to make one of the largest supercomputers in the world. Apr 08 13:57
zer0c00l cool Apr 08 13:57
iwmw yeah… they also pay for electricity that this compy consumes Apr 08 13:57
iwmw and after their gpus work 24/30 the latter are almost dead Apr 08 13:58
oiaohm tomoyo secuirty frame work is in. Apr 08 14:02
oiaohm That makes 3 to choose from in the default kernel. Apr 08 14:02
DaemonFC Tomoyo………You mean the one that is only documented well in Japanese Apr 08 14:02
DaemonFC and only shipping with TurboLinux and Mandriva Apr 08 14:02
DaemonFC for some messed up reason, Ubuntu is using AppArmor Apr 08 14:03
oiaohm They are working on translating to english. Apr 08 14:04
DaemonFC personally I’d rather they didn’t use anything Apr 08 14:04
DaemonFC if they’re going to damage the OS, why does it have to be over something so easy to bypass? Apr 08 14:04
oiaohm Tomoyo is not easy to bypass. Apr 08 14:04
DaemonFC all MAC damages the OS Apr 08 14:05
DaemonFC and makes it more difficult to use Apr 08 14:05
oiaohm 2.6.30 and up has file based filtering for mac but apparmor has not be updated yet to use it. Apr 08 14:05
oiaohm People can say that about all secuirty settings DaemonFC Apr 08 14:05
DaemonFC the ones that don’t fuck you over with benign tasks (SELinux) are completely useless (AppArmor) Apr 08 14:06
oiaohm Wrong user settings can get in way too so we should do away with multiable users. Apr 08 14:06
oiaohm That is basically your logic. Apr 08 14:06
oiaohm MAC should exist in a OS. Apr 08 14:06
DaemonFC no, I just say don’t force it on people that never asked for it Apr 08 14:06
oiaohm But it should not be a bug bear to fix either. Apr 08 14:06
DaemonFC like I said Apr 08 14:07
DaemonFC worthless (AppArmor) Apr 08 14:07
DaemonFC gulag (SELinux) Apr 08 14:07
oiaohm None is not a solution. Apr 08 14:07
oiaohm Tomoyo is more friendly other than its manual. Apr 08 14:07
oiaohm Not being english. Apr 08 14:08
oiaohm smack is also more friendly than selinux. Apr 08 14:08
oiaohm Ubuntu has the option of three.  Apparmor smack and selinux. Apr 08 14:08
DaemonFC yeah, and they’re making the system depend more on AppArmor lately Apr 08 14:09
oiaohm If apparmor gets fixed the way Tomoyo is for file based it will become secure. Apr 08 14:09
oiaohm It the IF bit.  As far as I know no one is working on apparmor. Apr 08 14:10
oiaohm Lead developer for appamor works with smack these days. Apr 08 14:10
*Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.238.112) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 08 14:10
Omar87 Hi Apr 08 14:11
iwmw is selinux kinda useless or useless only for most of users? Apr 08 14:11
iwmw can a user be forced to run everything through selinux/ Apr 08 14:12
oiaohm Selinux is not useless.  More can be annoying like a incorrectly set firewall. Apr 08 14:12
oiaohm Only problem with Selinux is that it configuration files are not what you call easy reading. Apr 08 14:13
DaemonFC AVC Denial! You tried to open your text editor Apr 08 14:13
DaemonFC AVC Denial: You tried to open a program in Wine Apr 08 14:13
DaemonFC AVC Denial: You attempted to log in! Apr 08 14:13
oiaohm Yep set wrong. Apr 08 14:13
oiaohm Annoying as hell. Apr 08 14:13
DaemonFC AVC Denial: Just for the hell of it! Apr 08 14:13
iwmw from what i read you can run anything leaving selinux behind Apr 08 14:14
oiaohm No there is always a trigger. Apr 08 14:14
iwmw AVC Denial: You powered up the computer Apr 08 14:14
oiaohm You can set allow everything rules in selinux. Apr 08 14:14
oiaohm Its highly flexable. Apr 08 14:15
*Eruaran has quit (Remote closed the connection) Apr 08 14:15
oiaohm selinux is also shows you that root user is virtual. Apr 08 14:15
oiaohm Ie selinux can even block root users from being able to do anything. Apr 08 14:15
oiaohm If set wrong. Apr 08 14:15
oiaohm Correctly set selinux just works away in background without bothering you. Apr 08 14:16
iwmw hm… restricted root user… Apr 08 14:16
*Eruaran (n=quassel@203.208.110.183) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 08 14:16
oiaohm Even without selinux you can built a linux kernel where root user is powerless. Apr 08 14:16
oiaohm Only thing that gives root user power is capiblities set on the user. Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFC I pretty much just untick most things where they say “If in doubt, answer N” Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFC :P Apr 08 14:17
iwmw what’s the main reason to use selinux? Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFC all the obvious crap like “Parallel Port Support” Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFC debugging crap Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFC legacy crap Apr 08 14:17
oiaohm selinux basically put sandboxs around applications. Apr 08 14:18
DaemonFC anything marked deprecated Apr 08 14:18
oiaohm and services. Apr 08 14:18
iwmw oiaohm: but what’s the reason to do so? Apr 08 14:18
oiaohm Reducing the damage they can do if they get exploited. Apr 08 14:18
iwmw aww Apr 08 14:18
iwmw that’s pretty paranoid Apr 08 14:18
DaemonFC tickless kernel is the most damnable thing ever Apr 08 14:18
DaemonFC :P Apr 08 14:18
oiaohm Do you run a virus scanner iwmw Apr 08 14:18
iwmw no Apr 08 14:19
oiaohm On windows. Apr 08 14:19
iwmw oh, i run it once a 2 years Apr 08 14:19
iwmw some very free scanner Apr 08 14:19
oiaohm Mostly because under windows there are that many threats you have to. Apr 08 14:19
iwmw the last i ran it was a week ago Apr 08 14:19
Eruaran Our ClarkConnect server has a virus scanner Apr 08 14:19
Eruaran But we leave it off Apr 08 14:19
iwmw so i’m free for 2 years Apr 08 14:20
oiaohm For linux there are not that many viruses. Apr 08 14:20
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