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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 26th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 2:13 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

seller_liar schestowitz: we need to focus on ethics , not powerful software Apr 26 18:36
schestowitz “”Price is definitely on people’s minds, and if people can get free Office with basic functionality that does 80 percent of what they need, they’re going to go in this direction,” Crawford said.” http://www.crn.com/software/217100… Apr 26 18:36
seller_liar schestowitz: because all foss software is equivalent or more powerful than proprietary software Apr 26 18:36
seller_liar schestowitz: There ‘s no need to focus more and more in features Apr 26 18:37
seller_liar schestowitz: Now, we only need to focus in promoting ethics in free software Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz nicks: they’ll deliver too early Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz But…. Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz It’ll have XP SP3 in it Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz VM Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz so they’ll say, “look, it’s not buggy” Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz “It took us 8 years to make XP… wrapped up in a 7″ Apr 26 18:38
seller_liar schestowitz: oh god , Go-oo in GSoC!!!! Apr 26 18:38
trmanco “Conventional wisdom says Linux is incredibly stable. Always skeptical, we decided to put that claim to the test over a 10-month period. In our test, we ran Caldera Systems OpenLinux, Red Hat Linux, and Windows NT Server 4.0 with Service Pack 3 on duplicate 100MHz Pentium systems with 64MB of memory. Ever since we first booted up our test systems in January, network requests have been sent to each server in parallel for standard Inter Apr 26 18:39
trmanco net, file and print services. The results were quite revealing. Our NT server crashed an average of once every six weeks. Each failure took roughly 30 minutes to fix. That’s not so bad, until you consider that neither Linux server ever went down. “ Apr 26 18:39
nicks Linux should have Most valuable professionals program Apr 26 18:39
schestowitz Firefox is misbahaving for me Apr 26 18:40
schestowitz I wish I knew what was causing this Apr 26 18:40
trmanco schestowitz, perhaps a plugin? Apr 26 18:40
trmanco “There are good reasons why one would want large FAT32 partitions (for example, it might be necessary to share data on such partitions with other operating systems) but Microsoft forces you to use their own, proprietary NTFS instead. This creates an artificial barrier for non-Microsoft products for no good reason whatsoever and overrules the customers’ needs.” Apr 26 18:42
schestowitz trmanco: yes Apr 26 18:44
trmanco http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants… Apr 26 18:44
trmanco more here Apr 26 18:44
trmanco Summary: Microsoft and standard <- made this up Apr 26 18:44
trmanco standards* Apr 26 18:44
trmanco “Microsoft’s contempt for HTML and related global standards is nicely illustrated by the way Internet Explorer 5.5 and 6 alter HTML code before presenting it to the user. For example, a web page header might contain a directive that an ISO (i.e. platform-independent) character set be used, with the following command: Apr 26 18:45
trmanco     <META HTTP-EQUIV=”Content-Type” CONTENT=”text/html charset=ISO-8859-1″> Apr 26 18:45
trmanco But after downloading and saving the web page source code with Internet Explorer 5.5 or later, this line looks quite different: Apr 26 18:45
trmanco     <META http-equiv=Content-Type content=”text/html; charset=windows-1252″> “ Apr 26 18:45
nicks interesting Apr 26 18:46
schestowitz └─(18:44 $)─> firefox Apr 26 18:48
schestowitz bash: /usr/bin/firefox: No such file or directory Apr 26 18:48
schestowitz I’m going to install this forefix thngie Apr 26 18:49
schestowitz It’s probably the profile though. Apr 26 18:49
schestowitz Still sthe same problem after reinstalling Apr 26 18:51
schestowitz So my profile is poisoned somewhere Apr 26 18:51
schestowitz Who knows where. Apr 26 18:51
schestowitz I’ve carries the same .mozilla since 2004 Apr 26 18:52
schestowitz *carried Apr 26 18:52
Neonflow heh Apr 26 18:57
schestowitz It’s not too bad Apr 26 18:57
Neonflow not bad Apr 26 18:58
Neonflow at all Apr 26 18:58
Neonflow I just usually break things after a while Apr 26 18:58
schestowitz The argument for free fonts < http://blogs.zdnet.com/community/?p=272 >. Microsoft still abuses a fonts monopoly and Apple ain’t helping Apr 26 18:59
schestowitz “I Drank The Ubuntu Kool-Aid And It Didn’t Taste Good” Apr 26 18:59
schestowitz ” So after modifying the system to increase the snappiness and failing to be happy with the results, I reinstalled Arch Linux this morning. ” http://www.customdistros.com/2009/04/i-dr… Apr 26 18:59
nicks its interesting that they need to put their fingers in everything Apr 26 19:00
schestowitz It’s dirty Uncle Fester Apr 26 19:01
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schestowitz Abuse is the key to profit in unregulated economies (or deregulated, assuming you can lull them with cronies like Barnett) Apr 26 19:01
schestowitz Well, Microsoft gives even crime a bad name Apr 26 19:03
schestowitz :-) Limited Edition Jaunty Jackalope T-shirts < http://www.earobinson.org/2009/04/24/l… > Apr 26 19:03
Neonflow overall jaunty seems faster than intrepid for me, except the graphics are slower (because there are more and fancier I guess) so I had to turn them off. then again I have a 6 yo computer iwth integrated graphics :p Apr 26 19:05
nicks oh well noone can be perfect. Apr 26 19:10
schestowitz Damn. This site is still mirroring us… even IRC. http://www.allaboutms.net/2009/04/… Apr 26 19:11
schestowitz Jaunty review are still very good… latest examples: http://www.geek.com/articles/chips… http://listento.jaketolbert.com/linux/… http://www.h-online.com/open/Ubuntu-… Apr 26 19:12
schestowitz GNU/Linux performs better in 64-bit than in 32-bit. Possible proof: http://www.tuxradar.com/content/ubuntu… Apr 26 19:17
schestowitz Using open source software [..]. “However, many Linux desktops [open source] provide a free Live CD-ROM, which allows you to run the complete Linux desktop [directly from the disc], without installing any software on your computer at all,” he says. “Try OpenSUSE (software.opensuse.org). Apr 26 19:20
schestowitz http://smallbusiness.theage.com.au/star… Why OpenSUSE?? Apr 26 19:20
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schestowitz The guy who writes about Microsoft and was given a Vista7 laptop in a Microsoft even spits on Ubuntu 9.04: http://www.itwriting.com/blog/13… Apr 26 19:22
schestowitz /even/event/ Apr 26 19:22
schestowitz http://www.dwasifar.com/?p=560 ““DSL” means “doesn’t support Linux” if you’re AT&T”” Apr 26 19:24
schestowitz Another blow from the AT&T bastards :-) Apr 26 19:25
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schestowitz read this: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/b… Apr 26 19:27
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*trmanco_ is now known as trmanco Apr 26 19:28
schestowitz I am very worried about Oracle: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/blo… Apr 26 19:32
nicks i wonder would twitter be good place to start oss community Apr 26 19:34
schestowitz Here’s a though Apr 26 19:35
schestowitz could they rebuiild mysql AB? Apr 26 19:35
schestowitz Like bring Monty and David Axmark into it? Apr 26 19:35
schestowitz They sold the trademark to Sun Apr 26 19:36
schestowitz But the code is GPLv2 (almost all of it) Apr 26 19:36
schestowitz They can regroup as an independent company and steal the engineers from Oralce Apr 26 19:36
schestowitz They have cipita Apr 26 19:36
schestowitz But Oracle won’t allow this to happen,. I bet. Apr 26 19:36
schestowitz nicks: what type of oss community? Apr 26 19:37
schestowitz Tough time with Kubuntu: Five Minutes of Kubuntu 9.04 < http://benhay.blogspot.com/2009/04/f… > Is it possible that only Canonical implements it poorly? Apr 26 19:39
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nicks well the one which will share it’s thoughts with others Apr 26 19:42
nicks and as well maybe the free software company Apr 26 19:43
nicks The people need is what matters. Apr 26 19:45
schestowitz There’s identi.ca Apr 26 19:45
schestowitz I talk to some people there. Apr 26 19:46
schestowitz It’s filled with FOSS people Apr 26 19:46
nicks it would be good to create more communities like this one which you linked me to Apr 26 19:48
schestowitz hehe. Ubuntu is for spinners < http://ubuntusyndrome.wordpress.com/2… > Apr 26 19:50
schestowitz “gentoo is for ricers” Apr 26 19:50
nicks soon my ubuntu 9.04 cd will come :P Apr 26 19:52
schestowitz Screw Intel.. http://keithp.com/blogs/Sharpe… Apr 26 19:53
schestowitz nicks: they have nice artwork Apr 26 19:54
schestowitz Like a man with hands aside and also a badger or something Apr 26 19:54
schestowitz Visual art/illusion Apr 26 19:54
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schestowitz What is Britney and RMS mated: http://www.junauza.com/2009/04/hum… Apr 26 20:04
schestowitz My brother installed Red hat just now Apr 26 20:06
trmanco OT: http://farm4.static.flickr.com… Apr 26 20:15
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schestowitz “Opinion: Microsoft still harming netbook markets. A memo that Microsoft reportedly issued to its Top 20 OEMs told them what they could and could not have in a Windows netbook computer. Is the company imposing restrictive limitations on what hardware can run what operating system?” Apr 26 20:25
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nicks schestowitz Apr 26 20:39
schestowitz Yo Apr 26 20:39
nicks are you interested to start oss community dedicated to its users? Apr 26 20:39
schestowitz This one if fuddy: http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/… (question mark indicates trolling) Apr 26 20:39
schestowitz nicks: does that not exist already? Apr 26 20:39
nicks nah at least its not updated or its empty Apr 26 20:40
schestowitz Haha: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.p… Apr 26 20:41
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DavidGerard good evening Apr 26 21:00
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schestowitz Hey Apr 26 21:04
schestowitz What’s up, David? Apr 26 21:05
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MinceR hay Apr 26 21:12
schestowitz Vista7: we do Vista, we do XP too… at half the speed. *snigger* Apr 26 21:14
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amarsh04 most frequent questions on HP support forums are to do with obtaining drivers to downgrade from vista to xp Apr 26 21:27
schestowitz Hehe. People know what they want. How about Linux? Apr 26 21:29
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schestowitz trmanco: be sure to blog about gnote. It’s an important milestone to cleaning GNOME also because it raises awareness. Any momentum it can receive will help a lot. Apr 26 21:38
schestowitz I hope Homer comes back to IRC soon Apr 26 21:39
trmanco yeah, I will Apr 26 21:39
schestowitz It’s like network effect Apr 26 21:39
trmanco the next version that comes out, I will spread some love Apr 26 21:39
schestowitz Your readers in turn will start mentionning it Apr 26 21:39
schestowitz You just need to seed the notion Apr 26 21:39
trmanco I forgot to that that when 0.2.0 came out :| Apr 26 21:39
schestowitz I subscribed to his rss Apr 26 21:39
schestowitz hub Apr 26 21:39
trmanco I posted it to cola and everything but forgot to post on my own blog :| Apr 26 21:40
schestowitz The trolls are pro-Mono Apr 26 21:40
schestowitz Good Apr 26 21:40
schestowitz It means Microsoft likes it Apr 26 21:40
schestowitz It also confirms that it’s bad for Linux Apr 26 21:40
trmanco hehe Apr 26 21:42
amarsh04 on HP forums, linux usually get mentioned as something that just works (-: Apr 26 21:44
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DavidGerard i have discovered that bacon is the viral killer! Apr 26 21:46
DavidGerard and got to use the bacon bra photo on an article Apr 26 21:46
DavidGerard been saving it up for one Apr 26 21:46
DavidGerard brb, laptop being commandeered! Apr 26 21:46
schestowitz I thought you mean Jono Apr 26 21:47
schestowitz When I hear about Bacon… Apr 26 21:47
schestowitz amarsh04: and helpdesks wonder why no-one asks about Linux Apr 26 21:47
schestowitz I heard stories about “Linux users knowing how to take care of their own computers” Apr 26 21:47
schestowitz Translation: they don’t need to run to other people for fixing (Linux). Apr 26 21:48
trmanco Don really kicked a trolls arse today Apr 26 21:48
jose_X schestowitz, I’m thinking of starting a series of postings on the flaws with the sw patent system. I have related ideas as well. Wanted to have them posted on BN. I think more people would participate in writing to reps if they had access to a good discussion. Also, “the other side” (spooky music heard in background) has some arguments. These all need to be addressed. Apr 26 21:49
twitter Hi David. Apr 26 21:52
twitter Did you really say it was a “pleasure” to run W2K at work, or was that some troll impersonating you? Apr 26 21:52
twitter They had an insulting little avatar, sort of a give away. Apr 26 21:53
schestowitz jose_X: sounds great Apr 26 21:55
jose_X thanx, i’ll email you the posts as they come out. Apr 26 21:55
schestowitz You said you’d go more parts of Mono Trap Apr 26 21:55
schestowitz But it doesn’t matter if there’s no sequence Apr 26 21:55
jose_X can’t say right now if this will be a regular occurrence or how frequently Apr 26 21:55
schestowitz You write very well. I’d publish what you send me Apr 26 21:55
schestowitz jose_X: you can also send us copies of comments in LT Apr 26 21:56
jose_X omg, that other post I wrote took a long time.. and only after i had chewed the ideas over and over and over. Apr 26 21:56
schestowitz I sometimes quote just portions (fair use) Apr 26 21:56
jose_X i won’t be putting that much effort.. in general Apr 26 21:56
schestowitz jose_X: yes, it’s no journal Apr 26 21:56
schestowitz You don’t need to brush it up like it’s Elsevier ot something Apr 26 21:56
jose_X ask me if you want to post more. why would i want to stop that? Apr 26 21:57
schestowitz jose_X: needs permission from you Apr 26 21:57
schestowitz Also, sometimes the context/background is missing from a comment Apr 26 21:57
jose_X what i meant was that if you asked, why would i say no.. in general Apr 26 21:57
jose_X i don’t put a CC license at the bottom of everything (anything) i write, but if you really wanted to post more, ask me Apr 26 21:58
twitter hypertext is a beautiful thing.  it adds context Apr 26 21:58
jose_X anyway, i’ll consider myself a hobbyist column writer for BN :-) Apr 26 21:58
twitter good stuff, jose! Apr 26 21:58
jose_X ok.. and in addition i would like to write to reps and post these somewhere.. keep a long list of submitted letters with intent to make it easier for others to do same Apr 26 21:59
jose_X i would love MANY people writing original letters to their reps weekly Apr 26 22:00
jose_X if we can make that contagious, the numbers would eventually balloon. Apr 26 22:00
jose_X we have to reach into the ears of these people “representing” us Apr 26 22:00
jose_X and we need to figure out and address every single arg being used by the high priced advisers that have the special access Apr 26 22:01
schestowitz I just cited you Apr 26 22:02
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/2… Apr 26 22:02
jose_X a multitude of letters can get out of hand.. we can try to tag it well to facilitate lookups, but also a wiki on “why software patents stink” would eventually be great Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz In this discussion about Mono the Silver Lie compat issue came up Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz twitter: Aye Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz I hate books Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz Find number, page to end Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz Find refernece Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz To to library… Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz Order  books/search… Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz Good luck with all that., Apr 26 22:03
schestowitz Internet -> Google/click link. Maaagic. Apr 26 22:04
schestowitz jose_X: sounds great if you can pass some of your writings (even from LT) for us to publish. You cover the same topics Apr 26 22:04
schestowitz Since you typically comment on Microsoft’s attempt to force its way into FOSS Apr 26 22:05
schestowitz jose_X: we cover sw patents too. Very few sites do, so it’s unique Apr 26 22:05
schestowitz DM does that ( zoobab01 ) and Groklaw to an extent. The rest ignore it, but it’s getting hard with TomTom and all. Apr 26 22:06
jose_X I’ve seen good discussions in places. I’d like for the “best practices” eventually to be gathered in one place. It would encourage more to challenge patents once attacked. It would make it easier for many to write to their gov reps. etc Apr 26 22:11
schestowitz Pooling papers? Apr 26 22:12
schestowitz One could write a letter and brush it up in a Wiki Apr 26 22:12
schestowitz See how quickly the Mono page came about and edited by all of us: http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php?tit… Apr 26 22:13
jose_X with many ideas and analogies from which to draw, you have a much better chance of getting original letters where the particular constituents voice can better shine through Apr 26 22:13
schestowitz Microsoft has fakers writing letter Apr 26 22:17
jose_X just modified the mono page with link to qtcreator as a good alternate ide Apr 26 22:17
schestowitz Microsoft BUYS letters to Congress Apr 26 22:17
jose_X we counter the fakers.. Apr 26 22:17
schestowitz Expose them Apr 26 22:18
schestowitz Don’t counter Apr 26 22:18
jose_X by (a) getting many people and (b) having better arguments Apr 26 22:18
schestowitz See the news about MS PR cuts Apr 26 22:18
jose_X we have the better args Apr 26 22:18
schestowitz They have some “citizenship” lobby Apr 26 22:18
jose_X we just need the numbers Apr 26 22:18
schestowitz jose_X: it’s not about arguments Apr 26 22:18
schestowitz Dimplomats gets bribes Apr 26 22:18
jose_X yes, it’s about convincing Apr 26 22:18
schestowitz *Diplomats get bribed Apr 26 22:18
jose_X ok, sure, that is why we need the numbers Apr 26 22:18
jose_X however, there are reasonable people Apr 26 22:18
jose_X when you put up money.. your args sound better than normal.. but we can put up votes as sub for $$ Apr 26 22:19
jose_X in any case, public awareness is what we are after.. the rest will take care of itself Apr 26 22:20
jose_X create a distro that is useful (eg, has links to current events, tutorials, comics, etc) and which focuses on helping the user understand issues Apr 26 22:21
twitter lol, money does work magic on logic Apr 26 22:21
jose_X eg, all of these apps that have little pop up lessons “did you know” or reminders can be done but with topics that users care about.. we need to humanize these issues and create a community of interest behind them Apr 26 22:22
jose_X did you know that sw patents hurts you whenever…blah blah. Apr 26 22:23
jose_X “sw patents would have prevented you from doing that!” Apr 26 22:23
jose_X sw patents humorous comic strip Apr 26 22:23
jose_X ditto for linux, btw.. Apr 26 22:23
jose_X we need authors that can write what wide audiences find entertaining Apr 26 22:24
jose_X we can write a gui front end/ app called Patentizer or Zap the Pat or whatever that does something humorous while educating Apr 26 22:24
jose_X a distro could have a mode (like when you install a different desktop), eg, a modified kde, that is like a sw patents (or pick other social conscience topic) command center Apr 26 22:25
schestowitz jose_X: money does distort Apr 26 22:26
schestowitz See one of the Lessig talks on corrruption Apr 26 22:26
schestowitz Also the Hillary Clinton example Apr 26 22:26
jose_X agreed.. which is why i want to be smart about this and seek numbers Apr 26 22:26
schestowitz jose_X: see http://www.thepirategoogle.com/ Apr 26 22:27
schestowitz it’s new Apr 26 22:27
schestowitz VERY funny Apr 26 22:27
jose_X look , there are groups that do fundraising well and try to represent the citizen Apr 26 22:27
jose_X we have to pitch our angles to these more reasonable people.. and give them goodies and good analogies and show the threats etc Apr 26 22:27
jose_X good link, schestowitz :D Apr 26 22:28
jose_X that is just the sort of thing that needs to happen more Apr 26 22:29
schestowitz Yes, I know Apr 26 22:29
schestowitz Gets attention Apr 26 22:29
jose_X a distro (here I go again) can feature all of these things and make it easy for the user to participate Apr 26 22:29
DavidGerard twitter: i didn’t say it was a pleasure to run win2k at work … just one compared to 98 or NT Apr 26 22:29
DavidGerard in the office, win2k is basically “windows that more or less works properly” Apr 26 22:30
DavidGerard i.e. its failure rate was way better than win95 Apr 26 22:30
DavidGerard not up to a real operating system, but better than dos with pictures Apr 26 22:30
DavidGerard heh. i used to use a kubuntu laptop i took to work with me. Apr 26 22:31
DavidGerard moving between  kde 3.5 and  win2k, i’d get confused occasionally which one i was using for a moment ;-) Apr 26 22:32
jose_X speaking of quality.. linux can get a lot of mileage by focusing on social conscience and special benefits to the user (part owner and control privacy etc) Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerard they’re similar in interface and firefox is identical. Apr 26 22:32
schestowitz jose_X:agreed Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerard when converting windows users, give ‘em kde3. they’ll be right at home. Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerard kde4, even at 4.2, seems to just confuse the heck out of them IME. Apr 26 22:32
jose_X the quality naturally improves as you gain more hands on board.. new users should know that. it helps with the network effect. “come help out” Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerard jose_X: this is why one killer feature of open source: localisation into every language ever. Apr 26 22:33
DavidGerard because the people who care can actually do it, rather than going begging to the vendor. Apr 26 22:33
jose_X localization is a good example of something many can contribute to and see immediate powerful benefits Apr 26 22:33
DavidGerard precisely Apr 26 22:34
jose_X with re-mixes, you can customize even further.. to create a distro for the “local club” Apr 26 22:34
DavidGerard http://translatewiki.net does this for MediaWiki – getting your interface sufficiently localised is one of the requirements before getting a wikipedia in that language Apr 26 22:34
DavidGerard sometimes this requires inventing computer jargon for a language. this is considered a bad thing. Apr 26 22:35
DavidGerard (rather than just using transliterated english) Apr 26 22:35
DavidGerard (although the invention is probably better) Apr 26 22:35
jose_X users pick kde3 or 4 or whatever.. it’s so easy to just have what you want.. upgrade at own pace.. but know that x or y exists should you want a change of pace Apr 26 22:37
twitter good insight, David, thanks Apr 26 22:37
jose_X for $0 Apr 26 22:37
twitter I agree with you about KDE. Apr 26 22:37
twitter The success of Ubunu amazes me because it uses Gnome by default. Apr 26 22:37
jose_X we don’t make $$$ only when users go to the latest and greatest. in fact, many would love to service the older stuff better. Apr 26 22:38
jose_X ie, for $$ Apr 26 22:38
twitter Gnome works but it’s not as Windoze friendly as KDE 3.5 is Apr 26 22:38
jose_X ie, the proprietary model is bad for users Apr 26 22:38
twitter bad for vendors, bad for everyone. Apr 26 22:38
jose_X meanwhile service providers can survive with old stuff just fine .. especially when they can add on to it for life (access to source and licenses) Apr 26 22:38
jose_X and $0 cost to them Apr 26 22:39
jose_X ie, microsoft’s model is a dead end AND their ecosystem may not have realized it but they really have Linux in their blood Apr 26 22:40
twitter everyone benefits with inefficiency is removed from a market, Windows is a giant cost to everone Apr 26 22:40
DavidGerard twitter: i don’t think you quite realise just how low microsoft has set expectations Apr 26 22:40
DavidGerard windows 2000 was a paragon of stability as far as its main users (office workers) were concerned Apr 26 22:40
DavidGerard the problems with it you described actually sound like dodgy hardware Apr 26 22:41
twitter No. Apr 26 22:41
twitter I had these problems at more than one place. Apr 26 22:41
DavidGerard ok :-) Apr 26 22:41
twitter One of them was a fortune 100 company. Apr 26 22:41
DavidGerard i mean, it was crasharama Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard as was nt4 Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard but both were way better than 95 or 98 Apr 26 22:42
twitter They had money for the best hardware and service M$ could provide. Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard and at this late stage, i typically run xp at work for a week before switching off on friday Apr 26 22:42
jose_X opacity contributes to problems Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard i just spent a week on call for work Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard on this laptop Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard booted into xp Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard the fan was screaming flat-out continuously Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerard then boot into kubuntu 9.04 with kernel 2.6.28 Apr 26 22:43
jose_X many users with greater demands run into dead ends on Windows.. certainly for what they can afford Apr 26 22:43
twitter probably from all the spam the poor thing was sending. Apr 26 22:43
DavidGerard and power consumption drops to 11.3 watts on battery (per powertop) Apr 26 22:43
twitter awesome Apr 26 22:43
DavidGerard no, from the antivirus (symantec i think) taking up an entire cpu Apr 26 22:43
twitter whatever Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerard so from all the spam the poor thing was avoiding Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerard antivirus software is the stupidest thing ever Apr 26 22:44
twitter have you checked it? Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerard yeah Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerard i used to work at an antivirus vendor Apr 26 22:44
twitter the only way to know is to watch it with another box that’s not running Winblows Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerard i knew it was time to quit when i had an actual nightmare about the internal structure of windows nt Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerard true. Apr 26 22:45
twitter gahhh Apr 26 22:45
*DavidGerard goes to install clamav and run it over the windows partition Apr 26 22:45
twitter a better check is just to watch the network traffic for a few days of sitting. Apr 26 22:45
DavidGerard the structure of NT is: a layer of crap on a layer of crap on a layer of crap on a core that was designed well by computer science geniuses Apr 26 22:45
DavidGerard twitter: that’s not a useful measure when you’re on a vpn Apr 26 22:46
DavidGerard there’s a microsoft white paper that everyone should read Apr 26 22:46
jose_X i presume what they mean by signatures is that you specifically look for code that you already know is harmful and then try to cut it off Apr 26 22:46
DavidGerard “Windows NT From A Unix Point Of View” Apr 26 22:46
jose_X vs actually fixing the software or security model etc Apr 26 22:46
twitter Hook it to a hub, If it’s spamming the world, you will see it. Apr 26 22:46
DavidGerard it explains the internals of nt really well Apr 26 22:46
DavidGerard it was written between 3.51 and 4 Apr 26 22:46
jose_X i get the impression microsoft’s obscurity model is about moving weaknesses around Apr 26 22:46
DavidGerard it really has lots of great ideas in it Apr 26 22:47
DavidGerard and of course it’s the implementation. Apr 26 22:47
jose_X having the weaknesses in the systems to some degree is something they like as they can exploit it Apr 26 22:47
DavidGerard ideas are cheap. Apr 26 22:47
twitter he he Apr 26 22:47
DavidGerard (this is another problem with software patents.) Apr 26 22:47
jose_X >> it explains the internals of nt really well Apr 26 22:47
DavidGerard microsoft has taken this paper off the internet, so presumably they don’t want people knowing this stuff. Apr 26 22:47
twitter patents are supposed to be for inventions, not ideas Apr 26 22:48
jose_X source code would do better.. too bad they don’t provide what they actually ship instead of the pretty diagrams they like to sell Apr 26 22:48
DavidGerard if you must do this sort of thing, copyrights are the right model, not patents Apr 26 22:48
twitter People who care already know, I’m sure. Apr 26 22:48
DavidGerard i’d love a copy of that paper again Apr 26 22:48
twitter If there were any good ideas, someone in the GNU/Linux world has them. Apr 26 22:48
DavidGerard linux demonstrates quite well: it’s not the ideas, it’s the execution Apr 26 22:49
schestowitz DavidGerard: I might have that Apr 26 22:49
schestowitz I also have some Comes slides from MS Apr 26 22:49
schestowitz About Windows not being developed for security Apr 26 22:49
DavidGerard the point of the torvalds/tanenbaum flameware is torvalds was talking engineering, tanenbaum was talking comp sci Apr 26 22:49
schestowitz There’s a missing article where MS exec says Windows is not engineered for security Apr 26 22:49
schestowitz It vbanished months ago Apr 26 22:49
schestowitz I contacted the edtior Apr 26 22:49
DavidGerard schestowitz: cool :-) I strongly recommend it as reading for all, including windows fans. it’s interesting to see what cutler et al were trying to do. Apr 26 22:50
schestowitz I don’t know if they have already resotored it Apr 26 22:50
schestowitz But a friend who is a teacher says it could be sabotage Apr 26 22:50
schestowitz cutler? Apr 26 22:50
DavidGerard there are no new ideas in linux. there dont’ have to be. Apr 26 22:50
DavidGerard dave cutler, designer of vms and wnt Apr 26 22:50
schestowitz Can you get hold of the paper? Apr 26 22:51
schestowitz Web Archive? Apr 26 22:51
jose_X cutler (deceased) helped build a system which got ms security marks Apr 26 22:51
DavidGerard no, that’s what i said! Apr 26 22:51
DavidGerard hmm Apr 26 22:51
schestowitz We can put it it in BN Apr 26 22:51
jose_X them ms goes and changes things .. which is what they sell customers Apr 26 22:51
DavidGerard might be on archive.org if i knew *where* Apr 26 22:51
DavidGerard archive.org needs a google appliance ;-) Apr 26 22:51
jose_X but their ads are over the model that got the good security marks Apr 26 22:51
schestowitz DavidGerard: find links TO it Apr 26 22:51
DavidGerard it’s done an amazing disappearing act Apr 26 22:52
schestowitz What’s the gist? Apr 26 22:52
jose_X i was talking about a different person.. just realized it Apr 26 22:53
jose_X always forget the name but “cutler” sounded like it Apr 26 22:53
DavidGerard aha! here’s the ancient link http://www.microsoft.com/BackOffi… Apr 26 22:54
DavidGerard WIN! Apr 26 22:55
DavidGerard here’s the index page of the document http://web.archive.org/web/19961020102243/h… Apr 26 22:56
DavidGerard note it links to a .exe- yes really. Apr 26 22:56
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) Apr 26 22:56
DavidGerard it’s as described on that archive.org link Apr 26 22:58
jose_X guy’s name is Curry: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security… Apr 26 22:58
DavidGerard it’s a techical discussion of the internal structure of nt Apr 26 22:58
DavidGerard or at least, what it was supposed to be Apr 26 22:58
jose_X >> Microsoft has been in pursuit of the C2 rating for NT 4 for more than a year. Originally, Microsoft had hired an independent contractor named Edward Curry to help the company obtain a C2 rating for NT 3.5 in the mid-1980s. But in 1995, Microsoft ended Curry’s contract for reasons the company declined to divulge publicly. Apr 26 22:58
jose_X >> Curry brought to the Department of Defence’s attention late last year the fact that Microsoft had not obtained C2 certification for any release of NT beyond 3.5. In March of this year, while continuing to make known his concerns regarding Microsoft’s alleged lack of operating-system security, Curry died suddenly of a stroke. Prior to Curry’s death, Microsoft hired Science Applications International (SAIC) to continue its C2 cert Apr 26 22:59
jose_X ification efforts. A year ago, SAIC was predicting Microsoft would pass its first C2 milestone within weeks. Apr 26 22:59
DavidGerard the paper was a reference in the SAMS book “Windows NT Internet and Intranet Development” Apr 26 22:59
jose_X http://www.linux.com/?module=commen… Apr 26 23:00
schestowitz “Not in Archive.” http://web.archive.org/web/19961020102243/… Apr 26 23:01
jose_X >> was the defense industry computer security insider who secured an Orange Book C2 rating for Microsoft Windows NT 3.5 SP3, running in a specific hardware and OS configuration. Note that the rating did not apply to an out-of-the-box deployment, or any other version of Windows NT, although Microsoft made representations that it did, or that the security rating was at the higher Red Book level. Apr 26 23:01
DavidGerard GOT IT. Apr 26 23:02
DavidGerard http://moose.darktech.org/FTPMIRRORS/… – that’s the self-extracting archive Apr 26 23:04
DavidGerard i’ve just opened it in wine Apr 26 23:04
DavidGerard let’s see if that’s the paper i remember Apr 26 23:04
DavidGerard a pile of old ms papers in http://moose.darktech.org/FTPMIRRORS/ft… Apr 26 23:05
DavidGerard if it’s in the comes documents, you could put it up Apr 26 23:05
DavidGerard yes, this is the document Apr 26 23:10
DavidGerard you read all this description of a very nice sounding design, and it turns out the catch is that all practical applications live in win32. Apr 26 23:10
DavidGerard which has the shoddy unreliability of userland combined with the same consequences of failure (from the user perspective) as the kernel. Apr 26 23:11
DavidGerard because it’s where you and your apps and your data are. not in all these lower layers. Apr 26 23:11
DavidGerard i’m now reading it trying to work out why microsoft wanted it disappeared. Apr 26 23:11
DavidGerard (this is the same problem X11 has, as jim gettys identified in his 2000? 2003? paper. it’s a userland app, but for the user it needs kernel level reliability, because any user who you say “linux didn’t crash, x did” will think you’re just being obnoxious.) Apr 26 23:14
DavidGerard (their data is gone and that’s the bit they care about.) Apr 26 23:15
MinceR windows has some processes marked ‘crash the system if this process exits’ :) Apr 26 23:15
MinceR as for x crashes — they just won’t happen on a server ;) Apr 26 23:16
DavidGerard oh yeah Apr 26 23:16
DavidGerard windows on a server is just … what. Apr 26 23:17
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-129-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 26 23:18
_Hicham_ Hi schestowitz! Apr 26 23:19
schestowitz Hey Apr 26 23:20
schestowitz DavidGerard: hold on to the copy Apr 26 23:21
DavidGerard well, i’ve found one sentence that makes me boggle Apr 26 23:21
schestowitz Is it copyrighted explicitly? Apr 26 23:21
DavidGerard “If the software is interoperable, it does not need to be compliant” Apr 26 23:21
schestowitz Huh? Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard the paragraph that’s from doesnt’ really make sense Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz Oh I see.. Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz Depends on context Apr 26 23:22
_Hicham_ DavidGerard : what software is that? Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard The Microsoft RPC is compatible with the OSF® DCE® RPC. Being compatible is Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard not the same as being compliant. Compliance, in this case, means starting Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard with the OSF source code and building upon it. The key element here is not Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard compliance; it is interoperability. If the software is interoperable, it Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard does not need to be compliant, and the Microsoft RPC facility is completely Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard interoperable with other DCE-based RPC systems, such as those from Hewlett- Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard Packard and IBM. Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard windows nt. Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz I.e. if someone ports to OUR ‘standards’, then it’s OK Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz Ingore POSIX Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz Just do it your way (they say so) Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz let others like Samba pray they can mimic Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz And then fear lawsuits Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerard it seems to mean “the code is the definition of the protocol, if it works well enough in practice that’ll do, specs are for wimpy girlymen” Apr 26 23:22
schestowitz Yes Apr 26 23:23
DavidGerard i think when ms claims this they really mean it Apr 26 23:23
schestowitz That’s the bad, bad Microsoft Apr 26 23:23
DavidGerard there is no secret document at microsoft properly defining SMB Apr 26 23:23
schestowitz There’s a bunch of good quoies about using non-standard protocols Apr 26 23:23
schestowitz To screw Oracle, Sun, etc. Apr 26 23:23
DavidGerard quite literally, no-one left there understands it. the samba guys understand it better than anyone at microsoft does. Apr 26 23:23
DavidGerard same for the word .doc format in all its iterations, etc. Apr 26 23:24
twitter that might be true Apr 26 23:24
DavidGerard i think it is true. Apr 26 23:24
twitter they made it malicious and forgot how to fix it. Apr 26 23:24
twitter ha ha Apr 26 23:24
DavidGerard yep. Apr 26 23:24
DavidGerard remember that recent story? how the permatemp apocalypse meant they fired literally everyone who knew how to build windows 2000 Apr 26 23:24
DavidGerard and wiped their machines when they were kicked out Apr 26 23:25
DavidGerard meaning that XP was actually built starting with NT4 and backporting as much of windows 2000 as they could get to compile Apr 26 23:25
DavidGerard this explains the feel of it – an odd mix of slick and clunky Apr 26 23:25
DavidGerard at twice the size and half the speed, of course Apr 26 23:25
twitter That makes Windows hopeless, as Vista proved.  It would have sucked before they DRM’d it to death. Apr 26 23:25
DavidGerard windows 2000 was the best they knew how to do, and they forgot how to. Apr 26 23:26
twitter Oh well. Apr 26 23:26
twitter If they GPL it, someone might fix it. Apr 26 23:26
twitter If they don’t, no one should care. Apr 26 23:26
DavidGerard “Let’s be absolutely clear about this: the goal is distributed computing.” Apr 26 23:29
DavidGerard and they’re promising clustering in windows 8. Apr 26 23:29
DavidGerard man. they should just have paid DEC the money for VMS straight up. Apr 26 23:29
MinceR gn Apr 26 23:30
twitter should have, could have, did not. Apr 26 23:30
twitter said nasty things about DEC instead. Apr 26 23:30
twitter idiots Apr 26 23:30
DavidGerard just imagine how 0wned computing would be if microsoft were technically competent Apr 26 23:30
schestowitz DavidGerard: hehe. Funny quote about distributed computing Apr 26 23:30
schestowitz CDNs are all Linux Apr 26 23:30
schestowitz And Microsoft memos shows them going frantic about it Apr 26 23:30
twitter If they were technically competent, they would not be M$. Apr 26 23:31
schestowitz Yes Apr 26 23:31
schestowitz With bad engineering you need to kick below the crotch Apr 26 23:31
schestowitz Oracle sells well without crime Apr 26 23:31
twitter Here’s one for Bill Gates.  GNU/Linux power management works great! Apr 26 23:31
schestowitz Because they don’t need to force people to buy Oracle with EVERY server sold Apr 26 23:32
DavidGerard matthew garrett wouldn’t agree ;-) Apr 26 23:32
twitter I just got Lenny to resume from hard  drive, using ACPI Apr 26 23:32
DavidGerard a lot of windows’ insecurity comes from using distributed computing protocols inside the system Apr 26 23:32
DavidGerard any process can send any other process a chunk of code and tell it to run it. WHAT. Apr 26 23:33
DavidGerard AND WHY Apr 26 23:33
DavidGerard GOOD LORD Apr 26 23:33
twitter relevant quote found here:  http://slashdot.org/~twitte… Apr 26 23:33
*ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p3103-ipad03yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 26 23:33
DavidGerard linux’s acpi is painstakingly reverse-engineered and special-cased Apr 26 23:33
DavidGerard not even as nice as samba, more like on the level of horror of wine Apr 26 23:34
DavidGerard (wine is not horror. what wine has to do is horror.) Apr 26 23:34
_Hicham_ DavidGerad : but it is better than Windows’ one Apr 26 23:34
_Hicham_ acpi on Linux rocks Apr 26 23:34
DavidGerard uh … it rocks if your hardware is supported. Apr 26 23:34
_Hicham_ u have all the tools to control ur computer Apr 26 23:34
DavidGerard if not it’s a nightmare. Apr 26 23:34
twitter ” the result is that Linux works great without having to do the work” – Bill Gates.  I’m aware of how horrible it is and how much work it took to make it work and exactly why. Apr 26 23:34
twitter I’m happy to tell him that it works well, despite his best efforts otherwise. Apr 26 23:35
DavidGerard much like linux and hardware in general. if your hw’s supported you get mac like levels of Just Works – if not, you have a world of pain ahead of you. Apr 26 23:35
twitter I’m also happy to laugh in the face of OEMs who can’t get their hardware to work the M$ way. Apr 26 23:35
DavidGerard i’m glad linux’s won on the server. Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerard i say that because no manufacturer is stupid enough to release server hardware that doesn’t run well on linux immediately. Apr 26 23:36
twitter the desktop is not far off. Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerard yes Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerard i read that dell was already asking its suppliers to use linux-supported hardware Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerard asking so far, not demanding Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerard that’s what it’ll take Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerard 2008 was the year of the linux desktop, in the form of the netbook. Apr 26 23:37
twitter When a giant like Dell asks, it’s a big demand. Apr 26 23:37
_Hicham_ DavidGerard : u have to check before buying hardware Apr 26 23:37
DavidGerard ms’s financials show the totally unintentional side effect has happened. Apr 26 23:37
DavidGerard _Hicham_: well yeah. Apr 26 23:37
twitter it’s not like it used to be Apr 26 23:37
twitter Retailers that stuck with M$ have gone out of business, CompUSA, Circuit City, and others teeter on bankruptcy Apr 26 23:38
twitter They’ve got piles of stuff that does not work and people won’t buy Apr 26 23:39
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U8e… Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard cut’n’paste bomb: Apr 26 23:42
_Hicham_ Windows is Obsolete Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard Windows NT is a portable operating system in the true sense of the word. It Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard runs on many different hardware platforms and supports a multitude of Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard peripheral devices. Windows NT gives you choice. Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard This was the dream of Unix, which, even today, is largely unrealized. There Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard is no such thing as Unix; there are only Unixes, and each is slightly Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard different from and generally incompatible with the others. Sometimes there Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard are even incompatibilities within different versions of Unix from the same Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard vendor. The application software that you buy to run on their workstation Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerard version of Unix will not run “as-is” on their server version of Unix. If Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard you want to run it there, you need to purchase a different copy of the same Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard application. In most cases, the same holds true with Unix itself. When you Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard buy Unix you are very often locked in to a single-vendor hardware solution, Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard and that vendor is usually the same one that sold you the copy of Unix. Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard what they promise there is realised with linux Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard i realised that when i saw the tiny MIPS notebook. Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard “that’s gnu/linux just like I use every day!” Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard hrm. I still can’t see what in this paper is such a slipup they wiped it off the web Apr 26 23:44
jose_X anyone know if windows 2000 had bsd code or instead code that ms had no right to use? Apr 26 23:44
DavidGerard no-one has evidence of such Apr 26 23:45
DavidGerard that i recall Apr 26 23:45
schestowitz :-) http://www.youtube.com/wa… Apr 26 23:45
_Hicham_ jose_X : go download windows 2000 code from piratebay.org Apr 26 23:46
_Hicham_ jose_X : these are the portions leaked by MainSoft Apr 26 23:47
jose_X smb the spec is immaterial. it’s ms’s code that matters. that can change version to version or day to day.. complexity is how you thwart interop and provides some amount of “i dunno” protection from legal attacks.. Apr 26 23:47
_Hicham_ jose_X : there is some Windows 2000 code as well as some Windows NT code Apr 26 23:47
jose_X ms “those dumb” people is much safer for ms than ms those shrewd individuals Apr 26 23:47
DavidGerard hmm. i’m now wondering if this *was* the paper I recall. i’m sure that was the title. Apr 26 23:48
jose_X portions? what are portions? portions can mean anything. patch “portions” enough and you get Linux Apr 26 23:48
DavidGerard jose_X: there’s malice *and* stupidity. they’re not mutually exclusive. Apr 26 23:48
*schestowitz prepared BN links for today Apr 26 23:49
jose_X DavidGerard, I agree.. at the same time however Apr 26 23:49
jose_X there are variations and it can depend on what part of the code you are looking at Apr 26 23:49
jose_X and which group within ms you are looking at Apr 26 23:49
*ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Apr 26 23:49
jose_X i’m generalizing.. i have no direct knowledge Apr 26 23:50
*seller_liar (i=c91babce@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a4092436871ccc5a) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 26 23:50
*mib_ksosr5 (i=c352a48c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1f455d46970835ee) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 26 23:56
DavidGerard you have the smartest people they could find, working for the stupid and evil Apr 26 23:56
jose_X ..working for money. that’s the trade off. it’s enough for some. it’s not enough for others. Apr 26 23:57
jose_X but google may have pulled in many of those that were after money or control or better karma or …. Apr 26 23:58
jose_X control in a different sense.. Apr 26 23:58
twitter there are a lot more smart people outside of M$ than there are inside M$. Apr 26 23:59
jose_X ms certainly gives the impression many times that they can’t execute.. but other times i’m not so sure.. in any case, they are about money. they know how to sell can capture (within their contraints) Apr 26 23:59
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