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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 29th, 2009 - Part 3



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Balrogthen what is it?Apr 29 15:52
Balrogor what do you think it is *Apr 29 15:52
schestowitzAnyway, that ZDNet FUS bothers meApr 29 15:53
schestowitzComes fro  the lair of Ou et alApr 29 15:53
schestowitzTechRepublicApr 29 15:53
schestowitzSome Windows/cCompTIA guy  spreads Linux FUDApr 29 15:53
Balrog:/Apr 29 15:53
schestowitzPretending to be writing about "open source security"Apr 29 15:53
schestowitzVery typicalApr 29 15:53
Balrogurl?Apr 29 15:53
Balrog                      http://www.zdnetasia.com/techguid...Apr 29 15:54
BalrogsorryApr 29 15:54
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schestowitzAccumulate damages caused by Windows/oftApr 29 15:57
schestowitzServe the bill every month to Microsoft/Windows usersApr 29 15:58
schestowitzThey can take the tabApr 29 15:58
trmancoTime for a banshee fork/port to c++Apr 29 15:58
schestowitzThat's one optionApr 29 15:58
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trmancoschestowitz, does that option exist? -> http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content...Apr 29 15:59
MinceR:DApr 29 15:59
schestowitzSys-con (shills) spread a lot of Ballnux/Windows whitepapers ATM: http://opensource.sys-con.com...Apr 29 15:59
trmanco:-pApr 29 15:59
schestowitzLots of ballnuxApr 29 15:59
schestowitztrmanco: it shouldApr 29 15:59
trmancoheheApr 29 15:59
schestowitzDoes Cisco even count as much of a s/w company or is Asay being an ignorant non-programmer again? http://news.cnet.com/8301-...Apr 29 16:02
schestowitzCisco, unlike IBM, makes a lot of its money selling equipment.Apr 29 16:02
schestowitzTitles should say somthing not about "software" in particularApr 29 16:02
schestowitzBalrog: oh waitApr 29 16:03
schestowitzAnroid FUD, eh Eruaran?Apr 29 16:03
schestowitzYou know why?Apr 29 16:03
schestowitz1.5 release of SDKApr 29 16:03
schestowitzThey need to pollute the news to scare away developersApr 29 16:03
schestowitzTalking point: "if you develop for it, there will be no users"Apr 29 16:04
Balrogyes, android FUDApr 29 16:04
Balrogheh.Apr 29 16:04
schestowitzAbout the MSNBC FUD:  http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/24...Apr 29 16:05
schestowitzThey forgot iPhone too is just one phoneApr 29 16:05
EruaranMicrosoft are failing.Apr 29 16:06
MinceRthey should hurry up and die.Apr 29 16:07
EruaranTheir Vista7 RC is all about feeding the mediaApr 29 16:08
Balrogyes.Apr 29 16:08
EruaranUbuntu is building towards a critical mass I thinkApr 29 16:09
EruaranIts no surprise you get articles appearing on websites within a week or so of Ubuntu Jaunty's release, announcing the impending availability of Windows 7 RC1...Apr 29 16:10
EruaranI saw an article about Microsoft trying to do social networking with "Vine"Apr 29 16:13
EruaranPaid subscription...Apr 29 16:13
EruaranlolApr 29 16:13
Balrog?!?Apr 29 16:14
EruaranseriousApr 29 16:14
schestowitzEruaran: heheApr 29 16:15
schestowitzVista7 articlesApr 29 16:15
schestowitzNotice how NOBODY mentioned Vista anymoreApr 29 16:15
schestowitzNot tyhe press, not peopleApr 29 16:15
schestowitzThat's intentionalApr 29 16:15
schestowitzIt's what Microsoft wantedApr 29 16:15
EruaranyepApr 29 16:15
schestowitzIt become an epic, legendary failureApr 29 16:15
schestowitzSo it had to -- by its own admission -- chahnge the topicApr 29 16:15
schestowitzLast week in the newsApr 29 16:15
schestowitzIn headlines: "Vista" 2 time, "Windows 7" 19 timesApr 29 16:16
EruaranDictionary entry for "Fail": see "Windows Vista"Apr 29 16:16
schestowitzIt figuresApr 29 16:16
schestowitzEven if there's news about VIsta, MS will keep quiet about itApr 29 16:16
schestowitzIt encourages negative discussions.Apr 29 16:16
schestowitzI HATE the 'press'Apr 29 16:16
schestowitzLike 'Times', 'BBC', 'CNN'Apr 29 16:17
schestowitzMichael Moore giving it to CNN. http://www.youtube.com/w... Apr 29 16:17
schestowitz"Well!! I guess we'll talk again in 3 years" (from memory)Apr 29 16:17
schestowitzThere needs to be a segment like this in CNN every 6 hoursApr 29 16:17
schestowitzI dropped my CNN RSS feed last week also (for "technology")Apr 29 16:18
schestowitzThey cover dolphin and stuff rather than corruption where it really matters, esp. now.Apr 29 16:18
Balrogschestowitz: <http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid...> "Is Apache Or GPL Better For Open-Source Business?"Apr 29 16:18
Balrog"Eric Raymond argues that the GPL is 'a confession of fear and weakness' that 'slows down open-source adoption' because of the fear and uncertainty the GPL provokes."Apr 29 16:18
schestowitzESR :|Apr 29 16:19
schestowitzI saw it some days agoApr 29 16:19
MinceRwow, he's really a nutcase nowApr 29 16:19
schestowitz"'slows down open-source adoption' because of the fear and uncertainty the GPL provokes.""Apr 29 16:19
schestowitzHaha.Apr 29 16:19
schestowitzWho from?Apr 29 16:19
schestowitzESR?Apr 29 16:19
schestowitzYes, FUD from ESRApr 29 16:19
Eruarano_0Apr 29 16:20
schestowitzMicrosoft is bad because I say it's badApr 29 16:20
schestowitzCircular logicApr 29 16:20
EruaranESR losing the plot ?Apr 29 16:20
schestowitzLosing the gunApr 29 16:20
schestowitz*gunsApr 29 16:20
EruaranHe's got a few horses loose in the top paddock.Apr 29 16:22
Eruaranor sheepApr 29 16:22
Omar87schestowitz: What do you think of Samba? Is it bad too?Apr 29 16:32
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schestowitzOmar87: nopeApr 29 16:37
schestowitzDifferent scenarioApr 29 16:37
schestowitzGlyn Moody wrote about itApr 29 16:37
schestowitzBut in my mind, the key is that we don't need MonoApr 29 16:38
schestowitzWe have other PLsApr 29 16:38
schestowitzAnd they run on Windows tooApr 29 16:38
schestowitzJava, C, etcApr 29 16:38
schestowitzSamba is another can of wormsApr 29 16:38
schestowitzAnd the EU handled it differentlyApr 29 16:38
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/...Apr 29 16:38
schestowitzWe must hit Microsoft where it HURTS. Not market share, but MARGINS. ISVs can do so too.Apr 29 16:41
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tessier_How do you calculate margins on software?Apr 29 16:49
*tessier_ is less and less a fan of esr alsoApr 29 16:50
schestowitztessier: development cost/sales revenue or something like that, I guessApr 29 16:53
tessier_Right. And by that measure their margins are HUGE.Apr 29 16:54
tessier_And will be very difficult to hurt.Apr 29 16:54
schestowitzAre Xbox margins huge?Apr 29 17:07
schestowitzHow about MSN/Live?Apr 29 17:07
schestowitzAnd Windows Mobile?Apr 29 17:07
schestowitzAnd Zune?Apr 29 17:07
_boo_idk what's msn/live evenApr 29 17:16
_boo_and forgot what zune isApr 29 17:17
schestowitzUS technology panel: by megacorps for megacorps?  http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/29/sc...Apr 29 17:18
schestowitzMinceR: see the photo. Maybe you'll recognise itApr 29 17:18
MinceRhungarian parliament?Apr 29 17:19
MinceRoh, the url gives it awayApr 29 17:19
Balrogschestowitz: LLVM is very promisingApr 29 17:20
MinceRi just don't see the connectionApr 29 17:20
Balrogthough it is bsd-licensedApr 29 17:20
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Balroghttp://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/...Apr 29 17:36
Balrogso much fud from the commenters :(Apr 29 17:36
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oso`perezosohiApr 29 17:43
oso`perezosololApr 29 17:43
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schestowitzHeyApr 29 17:49
schestowitzWhat's up?Apr 29 17:49
oso`perezosomm.. interesting any links to substantiate such a strong accusation?Apr 29 17:49
schestowitzWhich one/s?Apr 29 17:49
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oso`perezoso'sever implications'Apr 29 17:52
oso`perezosoI mean this is a bold claim to make so I sorta expected to have some grounds.Apr 29 17:55
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schestowitzWatch the new post titled "The Big Australian Press: “Microsoft Has Not Ruled Out Buying a Linux Company”" http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/29/on...Apr 29 17:56
schestowitzoso`perezoso: in the title?Apr 29 17:57
oso`perezosonor the title neither the topic got linksApr 29 17:59
oso`perezosowouldn't be buying linux firms plant a open source trojan from within in m$$??Apr 29 18:00
oso`perezosoI mean GPL is not reversible.Apr 29 18:01
schestowitzYesApr 29 18:01
schestowitzBut Microsoft is miserableApr 29 18:01
schestowitzIt can hope to sell proprietary alongside or in addition to FOSSApr 29 18:01
schestowitzIt's not so far fetchedApr 29 18:01
schestowitzBut...Apr 29 18:01
schestowitzIf it distributed GPLv3-ed s/w, that would get complicatedApr 29 18:02
oso`perezosoI'll read your linkApr 29 18:04
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oso`perezososo this is squarely aimed at $u$e then?Apr 29 18:04
oso`perezososince $u$e is Novell's distro.Apr 29 18:05
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schestowitzLinux's ARM getting stronger against Wintel: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...Apr 29 18:06
schestowitzoso`perezoso: what specifically aimed at SUSE?Apr 29 18:06
oso`perezosothese accusationsApr 29 18:08
schestowitzOh, not again... SJVN joins the FUD party. http://practical-tech.com/develo...Apr 29 18:08
schestowitzoso`perezoso: it started with NovellApr 29 18:08
oso`perezosogo linux go!!Apr 29 18:08
schestowitzThere are more vendors, but Novell has the tightest relationshipApr 29 18:08
oso`perezosothis is really odd. Why on earth linux vendors would willingly side with m$$?? I mean linux got a strong foundation to defend and support any project. Linux Foundation. Not to mention HEAVY WEIGHT big iron backing us upApr 29 18:10
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schestowitzoso`perezoso: Microsoft paid themApr 29 18:13
schestowitz$240,000,000Apr 29 18:13
schestowitzAnd beyondApr 29 18:13
schestowitzQuiz: History of Sun Microsystems Quiz < http://www.technologyandbusiness.com.au/pc... >Apr 29 18:13
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oso`perezosothese are companies that long ago longed freeing from the yokes of m$$.Apr 29 18:18
schestowitzRIAA settles for $7,000 after 4 years pursuing NY mum < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... >Apr 29 18:22
schestowitzSome artists want to get off the yokes of MAFIAAApr 29 18:22
schestowitzYouTube gives a good platform to manyApr 29 18:23
oso`perezosoerr.. not only youtube, new ways of producing are freeing artist from MAFIAAApr 29 18:26
schestowitzExec jumps from one Microsoft puppet to another: Top EMC exec jumps ship for HP < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04... >Apr 29 18:29
schestowitzoso`perezoso: of courseApr 29 18:29
schestowitz"Installed Jaunty Jackalope with Wubi. Definitely feels like a smoother UI on my Lenovo." http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/04/j...Apr 29 18:34
oso`perezosoLMAO@puppetryApr 29 18:35
schestowitzWell, weasel wordApr 29 18:35
oso`perezosodid you hear about m$$ hiring the highest ranking CPU designer from Sun Microsystems?Apr 29 18:36
schestowitzJust meaning when a company serves another. Like the US and Canada sometimesApr 29 18:36
schestowitzoso`perezoso: no big deal thatApr 29 18:36
schestowitzHe had to find /some/ place to workApr 29 18:36
schestowitzOracle won't do much h/wApr 29 18:37
oso`perezosoI don't know if are familiar but in Slashdot there was this article about m$$ entering in the CPU industry in the near futureApr 29 18:38
schestowitzoso`perezoso: It would not surprise meApr 29 18:40
schestowitzFound today: http://www.wwj.com/B-ham-Native--Ex-... "a former Microsoft Corp. executive. He says the days of proprietary software are numbered and companies like Microsoft are likely doomed"Apr 29 18:40
schestowitzTheir business model is dyingApr 29 18:40
schestowitzThey try h/w nowApr 29 18:40
schestowitzThey fail badlyApr 29 18:40
schestowitzZune=disasterApr 29 18:40
schestowitzXBox=billions in lossesApr 29 18:40
schestowitzSaaS= billions in losses(MSN/LiveApr 29 18:41
schestowitzThey still have some bright people (even if they are criminal or unethical)Apr 29 18:41
schestowitzThey need to put these people to use where they can make a PROFITApr 29 18:41
schestowitzIn most divisions (ping tessier ) Microsoft is LOSING money. And software margins erode quickly.Apr 29 18:41
oso`perezosololApr 29 18:43
oso`perezosothe interesting thing is that they try to copy stuff from companies that themselves innovated that specific product and were succesful.Apr 29 18:43
oso`perezosoapple=ipod, sony=ps2,ps3, google etcApr 29 18:44
oso`perezosoand they do those thing simply by pouring $$$ on their projects but lack the innovative and creativity edge.Apr 29 18:45
schestowitzYou forgot key onesApr 29 18:45
schestowitzAdobeApr 29 18:45
schestowitzx3Apr 29 18:45
schestowitzPhotoshop = Microsoft called its clone offApr 29 18:45
schestowitzFlash = MS is nowhere, still bribing for Silver Lie dealsApr 29 18:45
oso`perezosoyeah just about anything.Apr 29 18:46
schestowitzXPS = seen it recently? Enough said... since 2005.Apr 29 18:46
schestowitzPDF is even embraced by MS nowApr 29 18:46
oso`perezosobut's true that their business model won't last.Apr 29 18:46
schestowitzThey can't quite monetise XPS anyway. Same with HD that they gave to JPEGApr 29 18:46
schestowitzoso`perezoso: that's why they leech via NovellApr 29 18:47
schestowitzNovell: "yes, we signed a patent deal, blah blah"Apr 29 18:47
schestowitzMicrosoft: "now y'all need to pay us"Apr 29 18:47
oso`perezosolook at the router industry, two years ago when I was trying to flash openwrt I found out that brands were using propiertary stuff and so on. I checked back recently to update and guess what.Apr 29 18:48
schestowitzHere's a Microsoft employee advancing Ballmer et al today: http://tirania.org/blog/archive...Apr 29 18:48
oso`perezosoALL the mayor brands switched to Openwrt!!!!!!Apr 29 18:48
oso`perezosoI was flaggerblsated!!Apr 29 18:48
oso`perezosonot exactly openwrt but the same with their own custom modifications!!!Apr 29 18:49
schestowitzLOLApr 29 18:49
schestowitzflaggerblsatedApr 29 18:49
schestowitzflabbergasted?Apr 29 18:49
schestowitzThere's a GPL suit maybeApr 29 18:50
oso`perezosolol yeah.Apr 29 18:50
schestowitzControversy Haunts Linux-based DD-WRT-- GPL Violator? Betrayer of Open Source? < http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet... >Apr 29 18:50
oso`perezosoerr, well linux gotta keep a eye on them. :DApr 29 18:51
oso`perezosoI think companies are realizing how open source can help their products better by streamlining the drivers/software development and delivering bettor products.Apr 29 18:52
schestowitzzoobab01: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_...Apr 29 18:53
oso`perezosothis famous guy writing drivers for just about any webcam out there got support from Logitech Creative Labs etc.Apr 29 18:53
oso`perezosoI think companies feel like this when a driver not their own is making success, they get envious so they open the source and keep it in their site :DApr 29 18:55
schestowitzOpen Source Jobs: Olliance Group is Growing < http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/04/29/... >Apr 29 18:55
schestowitzYes, a French man.Apr 29 18:56
schestowitzit was misstatedApr 29 18:56
oso`perezosoyepApr 29 18:56
schestowitzThere's lots of overlap in driver development thereApr 29 18:56
schestowitzHe didn't write drivers for 200+ devices ONE BY ONEApr 29 18:56
oso`perezosoI know, but maintainsApr 29 18:56
oso`perezosodo you code??Apr 29 18:57
oso`perezosolol@Olliance!!!Apr 29 18:57
oso`perezosoOpen + Alliance = Olliance??Apr 29 18:57
schestowitzODF news is currently floored by news about the company that attacked ODF endlesslyApr 29 18:59
schestowitzThey cheer over something they'll try to just screwApr 29 18:59
schestowitzwait and watchApr 29 18:59
schestowitzoso`perezoso: Yes, I codeApr 29 18:59
oso`perezosoI don'tApr 29 18:59
schestowitzNever done driversApr 29 18:59
oso`perezosoODF is the good one or evil?Apr 29 19:00
schestowitzGreg K-H from Novell wrote some tutorials IIRCtApr 29 19:00
schestowitzThere's more volunteers for drivers work than drivers to be doneApr 29 19:00
schestowitzThe good oneApr 29 19:00
schestowitzAlthough IBM needs to be watched. Oracle too.Apr 29 19:00
schestowitzIf they collude with MS, then that's the end of thatApr 29 19:00
oso`perezosothe end of whon?Apr 29 19:02
oso`perezosom$ can't pick a fight with Oracle and IBMApr 29 19:02
oso`perezosoOracle that recently   bought Sun?? no wayApr 29 19:02
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schestowitzManchester, UK - MIT's FabLab scheme is adding the UK to its growing network. < http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp... >Apr 29 19:07
schestowitzoso`perezoso: no, I was thinking about something elseApr 29 19:08
schestowitzGrouping over standardsApr 29 19:08
schestowitzMarbux wrote about it last yearApr 29 19:08
schestowitzThere may be substance to thatApr 29 19:08
schestowitzSome kind of a ceasefire from Sutor et alApr 29 19:08
schestowitzWelcome to the Ubuntu-Women website < http://ubuntu-women.org/ >Apr 29 19:09
schestowitzThis is good in a way. Not separation based on gender, but it's an indication of growth.Apr 29 19:09
DaemonFChttp://www.istartedsomething.com/2...Apr 29 19:09
DaemonFChehApr 29 19:09
oso`perezosoLMAO@Ubuntu-women!!Apr 29 19:10
DaemonFCnot touching that oneApr 29 19:11
schestowitzDoes corporate hog farming breed swine flu? < http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/... >Apr 29 19:11
schestowitzHehe. Extras.Apr 29 19:11
schestowitzStill not arrived at the scene like promised, eh?Apr 29 19:12
schestowitzWhere are people lining up for refunds?Apr 29 19:12
schestowitzOr class action?Apr 29 19:12
schestowitzThey have complained since 2007Apr 29 19:12
schestowitzBTW I haven't opened that URL yet. istartedsomething is a bit of a Microsoft guerrilla marketing blog IMHO.Apr 29 19:12
DaemonFC"Update 2: It looks like Microsoft Australia even offered someone a downgrade from Ultimate to Home Premium over at the Neowin forums because he thought he wasn’t getting enough value."Apr 29 19:13
DaemonFClmaoApr 29 19:13
DaemonFCthe Ultimate version's main thing is it has everything from Business and Home PremiumApr 29 19:14
DaemonFCHome Premium doesn't have the policy editors, volume shadow service, etcApr 29 19:14
DaemonFCI know there's other limits on itApr 29 19:15
schestowitzCSS naked: http://thenextweb.com/2009/04/28...Apr 29 19:15
DaemonFCit's so close in Price to Business that you may as well get UltimateApr 29 19:16
oso`perezosoneowin is pro-linux or m$$??Apr 29 19:16
DaemonFCbecause ate that point you're talking $20Apr 29 19:16
DaemonFC*atApr 29 19:16
schestowitzoso`perezoso: yesApr 29 19:16
schestowitzWe have posts about thatApr 29 19:16
schestowitzAlso pro-SUSE, obviousltyApr 29 19:16
DaemonFCNeowin posts some stuff I download occasionallyApr 29 19:16
oso`perezosoah okApr 29 19:16
DaemonFCthey had the uxtheme multi-patcher and some themesApr 29 19:17
DaemonFCI think removing Aero Glass from Vista Basic was the biggest reason most people didn't buy itApr 29 19:17
oso`perezosook cool conversationApr 29 19:18
DaemonFCthere was a way to hack around that and re-enable it thoughApr 29 19:18
oso`perezosogonna read some of the links you posted.Apr 29 19:18
oso`perezosoI could'nt keep up with them all :)Apr 29 19:18
DaemonFCThey crippled Vista Basic beyond beliefApr 29 19:18
DaemonFCit couldn't even do some things XP Home couldApr 29 19:18
oso`perezosowhat a complete retarded decision not include Aero for everyoneApr 29 19:19
DaemonFCI don't mean "Go find other software to do that", I mean they made Windows refuse at the kernel levelApr 29 19:19
DaemonFCthings like home networking/sharesApr 29 19:19
DaemonFCit had limited XBOX 360 connectivity, but no more than XP Home with Windows Media Player 11Apr 29 19:20
schestowitzCheck out this one: http://linspire.com/Apr 29 19:20
oso`perezosowow, that's why I was having a hell've time trying to share folders between OSX and Vista??Apr 29 19:20
DaemonFCif you had Vista Basic? probablyApr 29 19:20
oso`perezosois it confirmed that Vista Basic is b0orkd for sharing?Apr 29 19:21
schestowitzThey seem to have totally elimated old site contentApr 29 19:21
DaemonFCHome Premium at least gives you enough networking ability to set up a small LANApr 29 19:21
DaemonFCand use your XBOX 360 :PApr 29 19:21
schestowitzMaybe not... http://www.google.com/search?q=s...Apr 29 19:21
DaemonFCyeahApr 29 19:21
DaemonFCMicrosoft even says itApr 29 19:21
DaemonFCin their comparisonApr 29 19:21
oso`perezosook, it wasn't for me really, but a friend that has hell'uv issues with it I was trying to, helpApr 29 19:22
oso`perezosoheck, I got  multiple flavors of vi$ta and runnig  m$7 :DApr 29 19:22
DaemonFCyeah, you will definitely notice crippling problems with BasicApr 29 19:22
DaemonFCyou have to get Business or Ultimate to escape that reallyApr 29 19:23
DaemonFCWhich i kind of the pointApr 29 19:23
DaemonFC*isApr 29 19:23
DaemonFCHome Basic can also access 8 gigs of RAM, max, even the 64-bit versionApr 29 19:24
oso`perezosocrazy.Apr 29 19:24
_boo_lolApr 29 19:24
DaemonFCone of the limitations they imposed to keep anyone from using it as a cheap serverApr 29 19:24
_boo_they're limiting resources XDApr 29 19:24
oso`perezosoerr.. I only have 2GB lolApr 29 19:24
oso`perezosowell, you can't really blame them.Apr 29 19:24
DaemonFC32-bit versions can access 2.8-3.2 gigs of RAMApr 29 19:25
oso`perezosothat's what they do, marketing.Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFCdue to limitations in the PAE kernelApr 29 19:25
_boo_for what not to blame?Apr 29 19:25
_boo_DaemonFC, 3.5 at max may be?Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFCmeh, I got 3.2 gigs maxApr 29 19:25
oso`perezososo they offer the cheapest crap one then the next one up more expensive with all the bells and whistles.Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFCI suppose if you have integrated video then 3.5 sounds possibleApr 29 19:25
DaemonFCbut then the shared memory the video card takes will be about 256 megs anywayApr 29 19:26
DaemonFCso have fun with thatApr 29 19:26
oso`perezosoSo think a lusr walking into Best Buy and talking to the seller.Apr 29 19:26
DaemonFCVista Basic was there to provide a $99 upgrade over XP HomeApr 29 19:26
oso`perezosois like selling cars. 'Well this one is better includes AC, radio Cushionde seats, etc'Apr 29 19:26
DaemonFCwhich was intended to cover up the price increase on the one you want to useApr 29 19:26
DaemonFCthat way they had the $99 upgrade price point so you don't feel cheated that the $160 upgrade is the cheapest one thereApr 29 19:27
DaemonFCthe customer feels like they chose to spend another $61Apr 29 19:27
DaemonFCB-)Apr 29 19:27
oso`perezosoyou can't blame m$$ really for anything. The alternatives are out there, ppl choose to go by marketing, then let them spend $$ for a cripple OSApr 29 19:27
_boo_why?Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFCnot like they HAD to spend another $651 to get it to do anything usefulApr 29 19:28
DaemonFC:PApr 29 19:28
DaemonFCerrrApr 29 19:28
DaemonFC$61Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFCit's a way to hike the price without making it seem unfairApr 29 19:28
oso`perezosoppl support m$$ by buying their crap.Apr 29 19:28
schestowitzHeh. 8 People On 1 Motorcycle Going Faster Than A Car In China < http://www.chinasmack.com/pictures/8-... >Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFCold retail trickApr 29 19:28
_boo_oso`perezoso, what about the fact that i have to buy shitty vista if i want to buy just good notebook?Apr 29 19:29
DaemonFCif you go in Walmart they may have a piece of shit $30 microwave to get your attention, then you find out it's a piece of shit, and go on down the aisleApr 29 19:29
oso`perezosoyes is all about retail and marketing business/decisions NOTHING to do with the lusr's lolApr 29 19:29
DaemonFCend up leaving the store with a $70 modelApr 29 19:29
DaemonFCnot feeling robbedApr 29 19:29
oso`perezoso_boo_: slap some other OS on itApr 29 19:29
DaemonFCMicrosoft is essentially doing that with VistaApr 29 19:29
_boo_but i have to buy vistaApr 29 19:30
_boo_it insults meApr 29 19:30
Balrogoso`perezoso: but MS is still getting moneyApr 29 19:30
MinceRoso`perezoso: they've still paid the m$ taxApr 29 19:30
DaemonFCVista Basic is the piece of shit $30 no-name microwave designed to soften you up for the more expensive modelsApr 29 19:30
oso`perezosoLMAO@WalMart microwave exampleApr 29 19:30
Balrog_boo_: are there computer companies other than apple that don't ship windows on a computer?Apr 29 19:30
MinceRthere areApr 29 19:30
Balrogand not just netbooksApr 29 19:30
MinceRdell?Apr 29 19:30
DaemonFCSystem76Apr 29 19:30
DaemonFCand DellApr 29 19:30
MinceR(even though they're assholes)Apr 29 19:30
_boo_Balrog, yupApr 29 19:31
DaemonFCDell has Ubuntu, Suse, and Red HatApr 29 19:31
oso`perezoso_boo_: use torrents, there are more fun vi$ta optionsApr 29 19:31
DaemonFCbut their consumer models have UbuntuApr 29 19:31
BalrogDell's quality has been quite good latelyApr 29 19:31
Balrogoso`perezoso: the idea is to STOP USING vistaApr 29 19:31
_boo_there are quite a small amount of notebooks with linux and freedosApr 29 19:31
Balrognot dl itApr 29 19:31
MinceRthe quality of my almost 1 year old dell laptop is crap.Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFCthe ones with Linux are pre-installedApr 29 19:31
MinceRand their support is crap, tooApr 29 19:31
oso`perezosoBalrog: you don't have to tell me that :)Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFCthe ones with FreeDOS have just the CD with FreeDOS to not break their agreement with MSApr 29 19:31
DaemonFCthat all systems shipped will have an "operating system"Apr 29 19:32
Balrogah. MS forces that?Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFCyesApr 29 19:32
BalroghehApr 29 19:32
DaemonFCused to be that MS jacked the price on Windows if you shipped any other OSApr 29 19:32
Balrogbut they can't do that anymore ....?Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFCcause those systems would "simply be formatted and will end up running pirate Windows"Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFC:)Apr 29 19:32
MinceRhere in hungary there's also albacomp and blackpantherApr 29 19:32
DaemonFCno, the US courts ordered that that was illegalApr 29 19:32
MinceRand probably others worldwide, but i'm not up-to-dateApr 29 19:32
Balrogobviously.Apr 29 19:33
DaemonFCso Microsoft's agreement with OEMs is now "All systems sold must include an operating system"Apr 29 19:33
DaemonFCand MS can't penalize for that OS not being WindowsApr 29 19:33
oso`perezosowow crazyApr 29 19:33
Balrogit's easy enough to install linux or freedosApr 29 19:33
schestowitzMinceR: I put a photo of Budapest in BN's FP.Apr 29 19:33
DaemonFCright, but the idea is that every OEM copy of Windows lands them about $50Apr 29 19:34
DaemonFCso by buying the Windows system, you pay MS $50Apr 29 19:34
Balrogand those $50 add upApr 29 19:34
DaemonFCeven if it ends up running something elseApr 29 19:34
Balrogyes. something like 'per-CPU' licensingApr 29 19:34
DaemonFCso people were banding up and demanding the $50 be refundedApr 29 19:34
Balrogthough that's illegal nowApr 29 19:34
DaemonFCso that's why Dell puts Ubuntu on a few modelsApr 29 19:34
oso`perezosook is not buying vi$ta but it's more about showing the ppl how they paid for an utter piece of crap and that there are better alternatives.Apr 29 19:35
DaemonFCHP and Gateway still issue refundsApr 29 19:35
DaemonFCyou have to mail back your Windows disc and COA labelApr 29 19:35
MinceRschestowitz: i've seen it, but i don't know why it's there :>Apr 29 19:35
oso`perezosodidn't m$$ server have per ip license?Apr 29 19:35
DaemonFCI mailed my copy of OEM Vista back to GatewayApr 29 19:35
Balrogoso`perezoso: I don't mean per IPApr 29 19:36
DaemonFCgot $52 check in the mailApr 29 19:36
oso`perezosois illegal to get $50 refund???!!Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFCnoApr 29 19:36
BalrogI meant that for every computer that a company made, they had to pay for a Windows license, whether or not windows was reinstalledApr 29 19:36
Balroginstalled *Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFCMicrosoft's EULA states you have that rightApr 29 19:36
Balrogor includedApr 29 19:36
DaemonFCand the OEM is a party to that agreementApr 29 19:36
_boo_oso`perezoso, when you buy server you also buy the license to use it for some number of clientsApr 29 19:36
DaemonFCand shall refund the priceApr 29 19:36
DaemonFCbeen held up by the US courts that Microsoft and the OEM must refund Windows if you disagree with the EULA and destroy/send back all copiesApr 29 19:37
oso`perezoso_boo_: I can't even begin to think how a m$$ server sets stuff upApr 29 19:37
_boo_there are even calculators for m$ serversApr 29 19:37
DaemonFCthere's different amounts I've seen people getApr 29 19:37
DaemonFC$52 is the refund for Home PremiumApr 29 19:37
_boo_it ends up with a good amount of moneyApr 29 19:38
DaemonFCI think it goes all the way up to about $100 for UltimateApr 29 19:38
oso`perezosoah ok, that'd be a bit excessive ILLEGAL to ask refund.Apr 29 19:38
DaemonFCno, it's not illegalApr 29 19:38
DaemonFCyou are exercising your rights under the Windows EULA to demand a refund for the copy of Windows you will not be usingApr 29 19:38
oso`perezosoI understand, I am just saying would some  sort of dictatorial practice.Apr 29 19:39
DaemonFCand they give you back the amount that the OEM has paid MicrosoftApr 29 19:39
DaemonFCOEM Windows price - whatever volume license discount the OEM gotApr 29 19:39
oso`perezosowhat if a retailer ask for refunds for all the computers sold and keeps the money and sells the computers  with free  OS such as linux?? :)Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFCare they the end user of the system?Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFCnoApr 29 19:40
DaemonFCthe retailer can't do thatApr 29 19:40
oso`perezosoah  true.Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFCEnd User means the person or organization that buys the system at retail and uses it themselvesApr 29 19:40
oso`perezosoI remember seeing RedHat box CD in CompUSA back in 2003 or 2004.Apr 29 19:41
oso`perezosoThat's interesting they been there very early on.Apr 29 19:41
DaemonFCStaples used to have Red Hat and MandrakeApr 29 19:41
DaemonFCthey gave up cause it wasn't selling wellApr 29 19:41
DaemonFC8-9 years ago, Linux was not a system most people would want to useApr 29 19:42
DaemonFCbad performance, crippling driver issues, etcApr 29 19:42
oso`perezosobut those are server distros, there should be an OS for Desktops usersApr 29 19:42
DaemonFCand you had to pay for it or download several CDs on likely a dial up connectionApr 29 19:42
oso`perezosololApr 29 19:42
DaemonFCso it wasn't, really freely availableApr 29 19:42
oso`perezosoi only noticed red hat back then because I started using linux. I didn't buy anything, Gentoo here.Apr 29 19:43
schestowitzMinceR: cause of Stock ExchangeApr 29 19:43
DaemonFCRed Hat actually gave up trying to make any money on desktop Linux over 10 years agoApr 29 19:43
schestowitzIt's always an Hungarian site that I use for free picsApr 29 19:43
oso`perezosoa lot of ppl aren't aware about LinuxApr 29 19:43
DaemonFCthat announcement a few weeks ago by their CEO is not new or excitingApr 29 19:44
oso`perezosoLMAO!!!Apr 29 19:44
schestowitzThey can afford to waitApr 29 19:44
schestowitzOthers develop Linux for themApr 29 19:44
schestowitzMandriva, Ubuntu...Apr 29 19:44
MinceRschestowitz: oh.Apr 29 19:44
schestowitzWhen Red Hat wants to enter the destkop it just takes the latest peicesApr 29 19:45
DaemonFCUbuntu doesn't develop anythingApr 29 19:45
DaemonFCMandriva does a littleApr 29 19:45
schestowitzIt does it share of stuff too, e.g. pulseaudioApr 29 19:45
oso`perezosoLinux Desktop 10 years ago??? That sounds quite impossible, with what kernel 2.2 and one video/audio code availble and three drivers working??Apr 29 19:45
schestowitzMandriva does KDE stuff, still.Apr 29 19:45
schestowitzRPMsApr 29 19:45
DaemonFCRed Hat and Novell basically represent a half of the kernel workApr 29 19:45
DaemonFCand probably at least 1/4th of XApr 29 19:45
schestowitzI used Red Hat in 2000Apr 29 19:45
schestowitzDesktopApr 29 19:46
schestowitzKDE 2 IIRCApr 29 19:46
schestowitzIt was VERY usableApr 29 19:46
schestowitzAlso great for developmentApr 29 19:46
DaemonFCUbuntu has released less than 200 patches since 2005Apr 29 19:46
schestowitzAnd it had ncie transparent windows decorations that looked nifty at the timeApr 29 19:46
MinceR205628 < DaemonFC> Ubuntu doesn't develop anythingApr 29 19:46
DaemonFCFedora has released over 40,000Apr 29 19:46
MinceRm$ FUDApr 29 19:46
schestowitzWindows was just ugly (win2k or win98 on my laptop)Apr 29 19:46
oso`perezosowow you are leaving out IBM and SunApr 29 19:46
DaemonFCit's not FUD, Ubuntu is a passive consumerApr 29 19:46
DaemonFCthey are not an authority on anything but UbuntuApr 29 19:47
schestowitzDaemonFC: Fedora claims 100k downloads/week nwApr 29 19:47
schestowitzF10Apr 29 19:47
MinceRm$ FUD saying it isn't FUDApr 29 19:47
MinceRhow surprising!Apr 29 19:47
Balrogare you talking about the kernel or the other software?Apr 29 19:47
schestowitzMany in places like NASA use itApr 29 19:47
BalrogUbuntu contributes to other software, AFAIKApr 29 19:47
DaemonFCif Red Hat and Novell went under, it would be catastrophic, not because of who they areApr 29 19:47
DaemonFCbecause of how much work they do that nobody else is stepping up to doApr 29 19:47
schestowitzDaemonFC: a lot of KDE is built by volunteersApr 29 19:48
schestowitzlike 70% IIRCApr 29 19:48
DaemonFCsome of the people doing it would go to other places and keep doing itApr 29 19:48
oso`perezosono, they maintain certain parts and they receive thousands of patchesApr 29 19:48
DaemonFCbut you're still losing a lot of peopleApr 29 19:48
oso`perezosothat's how it worksApr 29 19:48
MinceRDaemonFC: most of those people were doing the same thing elsewhereApr 29 19:48
DaemonFCThe Linux Foundation said that 7 of 10 people working on Linux are paid to do itApr 29 19:49
schestowitzNothing happend when reiser divedApr 29 19:49
schestowitzThere are too many DEs and distrosApr 29 19:49
DaemonFCso that's like the organization Linus Torvalds works at?Apr 29 19:49
DaemonFCnot Microsoft?Apr 29 19:49
schestowitzNo single point of failureApr 29 19:49
MinceRRMS wrote most of GNU without being paid for it at allApr 29 19:49
schestowitz18 years and still goingApr 29 19:49
oso`perezosofor instance Solaris has been using Gnome as default DE for 10 yearsApr 29 19:49
schestowitzUnlike Solaris on the face of itApr 29 19:49
DaemonFCwell, it's obvious that the kernel was something that the GNU people were out of their league onApr 29 19:50
DaemonFCthey undertook an enormous task without the talent or manpower to do itApr 29 19:50
MinceRit's not the same taskApr 29 19:50
oso`perezosoMinceR: what are the GNU parts? the compiler, debugger etc??Apr 29 19:50
DaemonFCand it's as old as I am and still is not good enough to want to useApr 29 19:50
MinceRremember the GNU kernel is a microkernelApr 29 19:50
MinceRoso`perezoso: command line tools, shell, compiler, linker, assembler, debugger, text editor, way too much stuff to listApr 29 19:50
_boo_oso`perezoso, compilers are not developed by 1 manApr 29 19:50
BalrogDaemonFC: when Linux was made, most work on Hurd stoppedApr 29 19:50
DaemonFCtheir kernel layout is a monumental act of stupidity, it has dubious or no benefit over LinuxApr 29 19:51
DaemonFCeven if it worked as stated (it doesn't)Apr 29 19:51
MinceRoso`perezoso: i don't know what exactly was written by RMS, but i've seen credits to him all over the manpagesApr 29 19:51
oso`perezosoRMS is Stallman or Raymond?Apr 29 19:51
_boo_stallmanApr 29 19:51
BalrogMinceR: RMS wrote a lot of the early codeApr 29 19:51
MinceRDaemonFC: tell that to TanenbaumApr 29 19:51
Balrogothers took over laterApr 29 19:51
MinceRBalrog: i suspected soApr 29 19:51
MinceRi know he wrote all of emacs, at least back thenApr 29 19:52
DaemonFCMINIX works, I don't see anyone using itApr 29 19:52
DaemonFCbut it does have interesting ideasApr 29 19:52
MinceRDaemonFC: microkernels are still very newApr 29 19:52
oso`perezosolol@minix worksApr 29 19:52
_boo_minix aint got enough people working on itApr 29 19:52
DaemonFCno they aren'tApr 29 19:52
DaemonFC30 years is new?Apr 29 19:53
_boo_oso`perezoso, linus was writing linux kernel working in minixApr 29 19:53
MinceRDaemonFC: ok, tell me one mature mainstream OS using a microkernel on desktop or serversApr 29 19:53
*oso`perezoso imagines minix being a single CPU driverApr 29 19:53
BalrogOS X runs a part-microkernel ... works well.Apr 29 19:53
MinceRno, osx runs a nightmareApr 29 19:53
DaemonFCMinceR: They inherently don't work rightApr 29 19:53
BalrogMinceR: maybe for youApr 29 19:53
MinceRit's not a microkernel once you bolt half of freebsd over it in kernelspaceApr 29 19:53
MinceRthat's not how a microkernel works.Apr 29 19:53
DaemonFCso you end up with monolithic+ some features of microkernelApr 29 19:53
Balrognot for the other 98% of people I meantApr 29 19:53
BalrogMinceR: I said partApr 29 19:53
DaemonFCWhich is Windows, Darwin/OS X. Linux....Apr 29 19:53
MinceRthe other 98% of people have no idea what a microkernel isApr 29 19:53
MinceRthey eat crApple marketing bullshitApr 29 19:53
oso`perezosom$$7 is based on microkernelApr 29 19:54
MinceRDaemonFC: winnt isn't a microkernel eitherApr 29 19:54
MinceRneither is LinuxApr 29 19:54
oso`perezosoj/kApr 29 19:54
MinceRmodular != microkernelApr 29 19:54
DaemonFCWindows is a monolithic with some of the features of microkernelsApr 29 19:54
oso`perezosoMinceR: ok, which ones are microkernel?Apr 29 19:54
MinceRDaemonFC: microkernels per definition do not include most of a gui :>Apr 29 19:54
DaemonFCWindows has a lot of common features of LinuxApr 29 19:54
DaemonFCloadable modules, user space driver frameworkApr 29 19:54
DaemonFCslow pool threadApr 29 19:54
MinceRoso`perezoso: there's Minix and QNXApr 29 19:55
oso`perezosoMinceR: are they free?Apr 29 19:55
DaemonFCwell, it's a component of Windows, because end users would not buy a kernelApr 29 19:55
DaemonFCthey want something you can useApr 29 19:55
MinceRQNX might be mainstream in embedded, but i'm not sureApr 29 19:55
MinceRMinix is certainly not mainstreamApr 29 19:55
MinceRoso`perezoso: Minix is free, QNX isn'tApr 29 19:55
oso`perezosoLMAO@users nod buying a kernelApr 29 19:55
MinceRthen there's L4Linux, which is practically a research projectApr 29 19:55
Balrogand Mach 3.0Apr 29 19:55
MinceRMach is too, it's used in HURD, for exampleApr 29 19:56
DaemonFCthis is from the same "Linux is useless without GNU!!!!!" spammersApr 29 19:56
MinceRand probably in lots of placesApr 29 19:56
DaemonFC:PApr 29 19:56
MinceRDaemonFC: Linux works without GNU, see androidApr 29 19:56
MinceRbut it's nothing like what we knowApr 29 19:56
MinceRandroid sucksApr 29 19:56
BalrogMinceR: everything you don't like sucksApr 29 19:56
_boo_android is google, 'nuff saidApr 29 19:56
MinceRBalrog: that's why i don't like them, surprise surpriseApr 29 19:56
oso`perezosowow google stripped GPL outta all the code used in android?Apr 29 19:57
Balrogyou're looking from a subjective point of view ... the fact that *you* don't like them doesn't mean they're badApr 29 19:57
schestowitzminix has just been granted millions in fundingApr 29 19:57
MinceRnot all, it's still Linux-basedApr 29 19:57
schestowitz3 million euro iircApr 29 19:57
schestowitzIntel Releases New Driver, Kills EXA/DRI1 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page...Apr 29 19:58
MinceRiirc the policy is that they only allow GPL code in the kernelApr 29 19:58
MinceRnot in their crap java userspaceApr 29 19:58
BalrogMinceR: GPL compatible code too?Apr 29 19:58
MinceRBalrog: my point of view is based on technological meritApr 29 19:58
Balrogdoesn't seem that way.Apr 29 19:58
schestowitzleave google allllllllllone :--(((Apr 29 19:58
schestowitzleave firefox allllllllllone :--(((Apr 29 19:58
oso`perezososchestowitz: millions from where? do you have a link? you got links for everythingApr 29 19:58


Recent Techrights' Posts

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one of Britain's largest groceries (and beyond) chains
 
People Don't Just Kill Themselves (Same for Other Animals)
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The posts "they" complain about merely point out the facts about this harassment and doxing
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Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
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the hobbyist in chief earns much more than colleagues, to say the least; the number quadrupled in a matter of years
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