EditorsAbout the SiteComes vs. MicrosoftUsing This Web SiteSite ArchivesCredibility IndexOOXMLOpenDocumentPatentsNovellNews DigestSite NewsRSS

06.06.09

Ubuntu is Censoring Opposition to Mono by Default

Posted in Debian, GNU/Linux, Microsoft, Mono, Novell, Ubuntu at 3:54 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Gnote

Summary: Debian a step closer to Mono independence, whereas Ubuntu does not quite tolerate Mono criticism

Gnote has just been added to lenny-backports, so there is hope that Debian will remove Mono as a by-default component. Sooner or later it might, just like Fedora.

Although Ubuntu can follow suit and remove Mono as a default component by simply replacing applications, it does not seem likely to happen when pro-Mono people gain positions of power. We warned over a year ago that this might happen to Ubuntu. Being the most ubiquitous distribution on the desktop, it is a preferred battleground for the likes of Novell and Microsoft to advance interests. Rigging of votes, for example, is not far fetched at all.

The longer time flies, the worse it gets because Ubuntu ignores many people's desire to cull Mono out and even suppresses those who dare to speak against Mono.

Now, watch this from Brainstorm. People make the suggestion that Mono should not be included by default and the page gets frozen with the following reason:

This entry was marked as not being an idea the 3 June 09. If this is a bug report, please use the Ubuntu bug tracker.

How is this not an idea? Sounds like an excuse to silence ‘dissent’.

One of our readers (unrelated to the above) told us this yesterday:

Hi Roy, the other day I noticed you linked to my brainstorm thread about keeping RB and not moving to Banshee, I mostly did it because I like RB and Banshee, besides of bringing a Mono dependency, is not really as good.

The thread, out of sudden was declared a ‘duplicate’, what’s worse is that the votes were not just locked (like what happens in brainstorm when something is marked as duplicate) but completely removed:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20016/

It used to have many votes for ‘Keep Rhythmbox” and many negative votes for “Move to Banshee” , it seems that the Mono zealots have acquired too much control of ubuntu brainstorm this is a disgrace.

What exactly is happening with Mono in Ubuntu? This is not intended to seem like a complaint about Ubuntu, but maybe a constructive way forward would be voting with the feet and rewarding distributions that do listen and do recognise the problems with Moonlight and Mono. I still have 3 computers running Ubuntu and they give the false impression that Mono is acceptable; even if removed afterwards it’s akin to buying a computer with Windows just to wipe Windows. That would still count as Windows market share, just not installed base. To people who study trends of perceived consumer desire, this may matter a lot and affect future decisions.

Share this post: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Reddit
  • co.mments
  • DZone
  • email
  • Google Bookmarks
  • LinkedIn
  • NewsVine
  • Print
  • Technorati
  • TwitThis
  • Facebook

If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

Pages that cross-reference this one

29 Comments

  1. powered_by_tux said,

    June 7, 2009 at 2:53 am

    Gravatar

    Quo vadis Ubuntu?

    Is it no secret that the Ubuntu forums is a bunch of sworn in mono advocates. No wonder as Ubuntu is the first distro to try if you came from Windows but don’t hate it enough yet. The sad thing is if you say something in favor of FOSS and against Mono/MS in general you will get flamed and often insulted a ‘zealot’, by users and something by mods/staff as well. Pay more attention to that! Yet, they often like to be seen as supporter of choice. If the majority decides not to adopt Mono, where is the choice?

    Anyway, Banshee sucks as much as any GTK audio player, maybe except for Exaile.

  2. Needs Sunlight said,

    June 7, 2009 at 5:12 am

    Gravatar

    ” This entry was marked as not being an idea the 3 June 09. If this is a bug report, please use the Ubuntu bug tracker.

    How is this not an idea? Sounds like an excuse to silence ‘dissent’.”

    It is. Try reporting it as a bug. It will last all of a few minutes before being deleted. Eventually the argument from the Mono boosters will be that it is a wish list item. Classic Microsoft-style circular references and denial of responsibility. Nothing that can’t be fixed with skilled use of a LART.

    There are only a few Mono boosters in the Ubuntu forums, but they are active and worming into key places. They make a lot of noise and do a lot of harm but they are few.

  3. Roy Schestowitz said,

    June 7, 2009 at 5:18 am

    Gravatar

    The following key points were raised half an hour ago.

    <Eruaran> So I was thinking for users who wont upgrade for ages, Debian might be better.
    <Eruaran> And of course it doesn’t have mono.
    <Eruaran> That’s a licensing issue we can do without.
    <Eruaran> I’m not sure if those idiot moderators on Ubuntu forums realise Mono licensing concerns may cause OEM’s to look at other distros instead of Ubuntu.
    <Eruaran> Its a REAL concern for us.
    <Eruaran> If they don’t think Microsoft will use it against us who face the Microsoft machine on the front line, they’re living in la la land.
    <Eruaran> If the Windows 7 release goes well and Microsoft gets a bit of goodwill happening, they will be emboldened.
    <Eruaran> They will be less concerned about negative publicity if they start making IP claims over Mono.
    <Eruaran> And they will hit OEM’s.
    <Eruaran> Those idiots on the forums don’t get it.
    <Eruaran> They will hit the distribution channels, flexing their monopoly muscle.
    <Eruaran> OEM’s will either sign a licensing deal with Microsoft or they will not use Ubuntu.
    <Eruaran> So either Canonical removes Mono, or potentially pays the price in lost OEM’s.
    <Eruaran> And I would say to those guys on the Ubuntu forums: “I’m the guy who faces Microsoft and their claims, and how it affects me and my customers directly – Not you”.
    <Eruaran> Furthermore, Microsoft will still favor such “indirect” action rather than going after distributions as it might not generate the same level of negative publicity. Always a bonus for the Vole.
    <Eruaran> Maybe schestowitz should do a post on this.
    <Eruaran> Because I doubt the penny has dropped.
    <Eruaran> I’m not sure how many FOSS people (especially at Canonical) realise how concerned about this OEM’s are going to be.
    <Eruaran> Purely on a pragmatic level – you’re going to lose at least some OEM’s.
    <schestowitz> I think they already pay some tax
    <schestowitz> Like Dell
    <fewa> really wtf
    <fewa> more US v Microsoft violations
    <schestowitz> Microsoft doesn’t care about the law
    <schestowitz> Unless it gets caught

    Needs Sunlight Reply:

    Of course Debian is better in many ways, especially for those that like a long support cycle. However, Canonical seems to see the merit in that and releases Long Term Support versions periodically:
    https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS

    They don’t get quite the attention from the Ubuntu team as needed. Usually the replies to bug reports are “try it in the latest testing version” But at least in principle the long term support is there.

    As far as M$ not wanting to follow US law, some of what the executives have been having their workers do can be dealt with under the RICO ACT. Organize crime is nothing new. Hiding it behind “IT” is.
    http://law.jrank.org/pages/11951/Organized-Crime.html

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Some of it is also accounting-related.

  4. c said,

    June 7, 2009 at 9:27 am

    Gravatar

    hahaha, I wonder if Roy is someday to get a job someday

    ;-)

    Myfraudsoft Reply:

    haha, I wonder why does microsoft hire only high school dropouts like you?

  5. benfrank said,

    June 7, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    Gravatar

    The solution seems obvious and easy: don’t make Mono or Mono apps part of the default install. Leave them in the repos for the users who want them. Easy as falling over. Not wanting to even discuss such a simple solution makes it credible that Ubuntu is being corrupted by Mono fans. IMono is controversial, and who needs the bloated Mono runtime just to run a few marginal apps? The importance of Mono to Ubuntu is greatly overblown by a small but very determined minority.

    ushimitsudoki Reply:

    benfrank,

    That is almost my exact position. The reason it won’t work is because mono-boosters well understand the value of having software installed by default.

    It’s the same reason companies pay to have shovelware installed on Windows desktops – most users will just use what come “out of the box”.

    Mono can’t win on merits, so they need vocal supporters pushing it into the defaults – then they make the argument “Why are you against including *MORE* mono apps, there are already some in the default”

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    They use the same logic to spread Mono to other distributions.

    sankaran Reply:

    it is real chance for Fedora 11

  6. reya276 said,

    June 8, 2009 at 10:17 am

    Gravatar

    The real question should be; Why isn’t Canonical doing something about this issue? Honestly these Mono advocates should stick to windows and stay the F……..out of Ubuntu or any other FOSS OS. They clearly have no good intentions towards FOSS. So why is Canonical just standing by and letting this kind of Sh……happen. Oh wait let me guess they don’t get involved in community business although this is happening in the main Ubuntu forums. Yeah yeah freedom of speech an all that crap but if this is going to hurt the community and Ubuntu then they need to be silenced.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    It’s a tough situation to be honest. Ubuntu fosters open discussion, but this also means that Microsoft people must be listened to. ODF/OASIS suffered from the same problem.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Gosh, yeah, those darned open discussions! The world would be a much better place if people would just shut the heck up and be “free” the way you tell ‘em to.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Freedom of speech “an all that crap” except when you disagree with it…?

    Wow. Just wow.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    David,

    We never censored anything in this site. In fact, in certain ways it works against us.

  7. Phil said,

    June 8, 2009 at 1:23 pm

    Gravatar

    Well this is good info to know. I did not realize the Ubuntu community was filled with Mono zealots. I guess I didn’t notice since they seem to pop up anywhere Mono is not being praised. I often wonder how many of them are just noobs fresh out of college that are excited about Mono and C# only because they lack experience in the many other languages that do the same things or better.

    Any way Canonical and Ubuntu…read this….if you are going to support Mono I WILL SWITCH!!. I have been taking looks at Debian recently anyway. Or better yet I hope someone does a downstream mono free distro. Even if mono wasn’t tied into patents I’d get tired of the ridiculous zealotry around it anyway.

  8. eet said,

    June 8, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Gravatar

    Get it guys, YOU’RE BEING LED! You are falling for one crazy jerk’s personal paranoia, which has go nothing to do with either reality, nor being a ‘good Linux citizen’. Go read some serious Linux sites, not this piece of trash and pulp.

    Pete H. Reply:

    Well, that was an articulate and informative argument for mono!

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    “eet” has been trolling this Web site for 2 years.

  9. a person said,

    June 8, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    Gravatar

    I don’t use Mono because of it’s license, someone that think just a little bit, will not use Mono at all.

    In my Linux systems, if Mono is installed by default, the first thing I do is remove it.

    Ubuntu guys, you are crazy people, remove Mono and I will think again that Ubuntu deserves respect.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    It’s not “Ubuntu guys”, it’s a minority of cronies that captured a position at the top. Ubuntu guys want to get rid of Mono.

    Dan O'Brian Reply:

    That’s not what it looks like to anyone who has bothered to read the mailing-list threads. Canonical employees are arguing pro-Mono – you and your trolls are the only ones arguing against Mono. Are you sure you live in the real world, Roy?

  10. FreeBooteR said,

    June 8, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    Gravatar

    I might go the route of Arch. I like the idea of selecting what packages you want rather than getting junk shoved down your throat. If i wanted crap on my system i’d load windows.

    Yaro Reply:

    I switched to Arch largely for that reason, though largely because of PulseAudio. Mono sucks and if I ever install a Linux distro that installs it by default I remove it, but Mono, at least, doesn’t cripple my sound.

    I was vocally against PA in the Ubuntu Forums and got banned for it.

    I run Arch with GNOME. No Mono or PA. GNOME itself has no real Mono encumbrances aside from a few extra apps.

    Oh, and a note to those who think that Mono is harmless, you need to brush up on Microsoft’s history. They are notorious for tactics like this. I think the only reason Microsoft hasn’t patent-trolled Mono and projects that use it is because it didn’t take off as much as they hoped, likely because the vast majority of the FOSS community was smart enough not to use it.

  11. Mark said,

    June 9, 2009 at 12:17 am

    Gravatar

    Just run Kubuntu.

    It is = Ubuntu – Mono – GNOME + KDE4.

    Problem solved. It has arguably better applications (Gwenview, Okular, Digikam, Amarok, VLC, Kdenlive, Kate, Kontact, Dolphin) and it runs faster too, as a bonus.

  12. Vikram said,

    June 9, 2009 at 12:03 pm

    Gravatar

    I was a Suse and Open Suse user and loved it. I switched to Kubuntu after the Novell deal with the evil empire.

    I have raised the mono issue many times and found most people in the Ubuntu forums were very pro mono. I also found that Kubuntu was getting very little care and feeding from Canonical with lots of bugs and app crashes and the last staw was the upgrade to 9.04 which screwed up my laptops network.

    Finally switched to Mandriva 2009 – it was so easy to install and use (no pain with wireless networking ), drake config GUI tools that I installed it in my sisters and friends machine and they didnt need ANY handholding to switch to Linux.

    to cut my rambling short – never used Mono, dont need Mono and dont plan to install it as well.

  13. Gani Albany said,

    June 13, 2009 at 6:58 am

    Gravatar

    There should be little doubt that Microsoft’s and Novell’s pushing for Mono is subverting the Linux order. One of the first things I do when I install Ubuntu with gnome is to completely purge Mono from the system. Heaven forbid is this kind of freedom of choice is taken away from Linux users.

    eet Reply:

    You could always build your own, mono-free Linux distribution – it’s free software.

What Else is New


  1. Links 4/5/2016: Wine Staging 1.9.9, ImageMagick Bug Fixes

    Links for the day



  2. Links 3/5/2016: Mozilla Firefox 46.0.1, More Jolla Funding

    Links for the day



  3. New Paper About the UPC Explains Why It is Bad for Small- and Medium-sized European Businesses

    A detailed academic analysis of the Unitary (or Unified) Patent Court reveals/concludes/asserts that it is being marketed or promoted using a misleading premise and promise



  4. [ES] Gobiernos en Europa Todavía Activos en Contra de la Gerencia de la EPO

    Todavía hay trabajo político que está siendo hecho — aunque discretamente — contra Battistelli y sus chácales en la alta gerencia de la Oficina Europea de Patentes



  5. Links 3/5/2016: International Day Against DRM, 25th Anniversary of Linux (Kernel) Near

    Links for the day



  6. Interesting Supreme Court Cases About Patents in the United States

    A quick review of some of the latest developments regarding SCOTUS (the US Supreme Court) as far as patents go



  7. Governments in Europe Still Active Against EPO Management

    There is still political work being done -- albeit rather discreetly -- against Battistelli and his goons at the European Patent Office's top-level management



  8. The European Spam Office (EPO)

    EPO budget at 'work', days after doing copy-paste jobs and also working overtime in the weekend for an extravagant and needless/purposeless event (except for Battistelli's own pride)



  9. Not Just Benoît Battistelli and Willy Minnoye (EPO): Željko Topić Too Thinks He is Above the Law, Avoids the Judges and Courts

    The latest developments regarding some of the criminal complaints and civil lawsuits against Topić, who is now a Vice-President at the European Patent Office (EPO)



  10. Nefarious Forces for Patent Abuse and Software Patents in the United States, Australia, India, Korea, and Europe

    A roundup of news from the weekend and today, with emphasis on the elements inside the system (or the media) which push for regressive policies that benefit them financially at the expense of everybody else



  11. [ES] El Sistema de Patentes de los EE.UU: Donde Uno Desperdicia Años en Corte y Gasta $8,000,000 en Honorarios de Abogados Peleándo una Patente Falsa

    un sumario de noticias acerca de las patentes de software en los EE.UU. Y ha lo que han llevado, debido en gran manera al decline en calidad de las patentes por parte de la USPTO (dejando que otros se las arreglen limpiando el desórden)



  12. [ES] La Oficina Europea de Patentes Todavía Sigilósamente Abusiva, Pagará $15,000 en Compensasió a Trabajadora Tras un Tardío Fallo de la ILO

    La Organización Internacional del Trabajo (ILO) emite un fallo en un caso de abuso de la EPO y nota “la excesiva duración de los procedimienteos internos de apelación.”



  13. Links 2/5/2016: Linux 4.6 RC6, DragonBox Pyra

    Links for the day



  14. Links 1/5/2016: Wine 1.9.9, Devuan Jessie 1.0 Beta

    Links for the day



  15. The US Patent System: Where One Wastes Years in Court and Spends $8,000,000 in Lawyers' Fees Fighting a Bogus Patent

    A roundup of news about software patents in the US and what they have led to, owing in part to the USPTO's declining patent quality (leaving others to clean up its mess)



  16. The European Patent Office Still Silently Abusive, Will Pay $15,000 in Compensation to Female Worker After Belated ILO Judgment

    The International Labour Organisation (ILO) issues a judgment on a case of abuse by the EPO and notes "excessive length of the internal appeal proceedings."



  17. [ES] Alice Continúa Quebrando Patentes de Software Asi Que los Abogados de Patentes, Cabilderos de los Monopolistas, Etc. Ahora Atacan a la Corte Suprema por Hacer Esto

    los cabilderos Corpórativos y abogados de patentes están tratándo de poner a Alicia en la tumba, por su impacto en las patentes de software que es muy profundo y así hasta ahora casi indetenible



  18. [ES] ¿Cómo Salvar la Reputación de la EPO?: Crear Más Jurados de Apelaciónes en Europa y Abolir la Malgíada/Malintencionada Fantasía de la UPC

    Una crítica evaluación de lo que ocurre en la Oficina Europea de Patentes (EPO), la que rápidamente se está yendo para abajo (y degradando sobre todo) a el nivel de los sistemas Chinos, en conjuntamente con corrupción, los abusos, y la bajísima calidad de las patentes



  19. [ES] La Corte de Apelaciónes del Circuito Federal (CAFC) Acaba de Ponerse a Favor de los Trolles de Patentes

    la tristémente célebre CAFC, que manifestó las patentes de software en los EE.UU, acaba de dar un regalo a los trolles de patentes quienes típicamente usan las patentes de software para extorsión enc complicidad con los jueces del Este de Texas



  20. [ES] Análisis de los Últimos Datos de Lex Machina Acerca de la Litigación de Patentes Muestra Como está Declinándo

    el Professor Mark Lemley de Lex Machina resalta las tendencias en litigation al colectar y analizar datos relacionados con patente y concerniéntes a monopolios intelectuales en general; actualmente muestra una sequía de litigaciones (muestran que ha disminuído)



  21. [ES] La India Está Teniendo Otra Prueba de los Peligros de las Patentes Occidentales, Debe Aprender a Rechazar Completamente las Patentes de Software en Medio de Gran Presión

    El gigante de software que es la India continua enfrentándos ea la cruel y agresivo cabildeo de Occidente, haciéndo que este controle a la India por patentes que no deberían de existir en primer lugar



  22. [ES] Microsoft Dice que Continuará Extorsiónando a Compañías Que Distribuyan Linux, Usando Patentes de Software Usuallmente

    La guerra de Microsoft contra Linux, una guerra que es peleada usando patentes de software patents (por ganancias y/o por chantáje con arreglos empaquetados), todavía continúa a pesar de todas las tácticas de relaciónes públicas de Microsoft y sus sócios



  23. Alice Continues to Smash Software Patents So Patent Lawyers, Monopolists' Lobbyists Etc. Now Attack the Supreme Court for Doing This

    Corporate lobbyists and patent lawyers are trying to put Alice in the grave, for its impact on software patents is very profound and thus far almost unstoppable



  24. How to Salvage the EPO's Reputation: Create More Boards of Appeal in Europe and Abolish the Misguided UPC Fantasy

    A critical evaluation of what goes on at the European Patent Office (EPO), which is quickly descending down (and overall degrading) to the level of Chinese systems, along with the corruption, the abuses, and the low quality of patents



  25. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) Has Just Sided With Patent Trolls

    The notorious CAFC, which manifested software patents in the United States, has just given a gift to patent trolls that typically use software patents for extortion down in Texas



  26. Analyses of the Latest Data From Lex Machina About Patent Litigation Show Some Litigation Declines

    Professor Mark Lemley's Lex Machina highlights litigation trends by collecting and analysing data related to patents and pertaining to intellectual monopolies in general; now it shows litigation droughts



  27. India is Having Another Taste of the Dangers of Western Patents, Must Learn to Reject Software Patents in the Face of Great Pressure

    The growing software giant which is India continues to face cruel and aggressive lobbying from the West, enabling the West to control India by patents that should not exist in the first place



  28. Links 29/4/2016: GNOME 3.21.1, Fairphone

    Links for the day



  29. Microsoft Says It Will Continue to Extort Companies That Distribute Linux, Using Software Patents As Usual

    Microsoft's war on Linux, a war which is waged using software patents (for revenue and/or for coercion in bundling deals), is still going on in spite of all the PR tactics from Microsoft and its paid partners



  30. Australia Might be Next to Block Software Patents If Commission's Advice is Followed

    Australian advice against software patents, which can hopefully influence Australian politicians and put an end, once and for all, to all software patents in Australia


CoPilotCo

RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

CoPilotCo

Recent Posts