IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 4th, 2009

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tessierschestowitz: Installing new network switch in the rack tonight. You may or may not notice a short outage while we move some cable.Jun 04 00:13
tessierWe should be getting some new cpu resources in the next week or two also. Then we'll update the website and be ready to run some ads and sell some services.Jun 04 00:13
tessierAiming for PCI-DSS compliant security.Jun 04 00:14
schestowitzExcellent, thanks!Jun 04 00:21
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neighborleeschestowitz, has there been any updates on ecma license stuff, from any source ?Jun 04 00:27
schestowitzThis is funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZB0lLIcXIAJun 04 00:27
schestowitzneighborlee: nopeJun 04 00:28
neighborleek thank youJun 04 00:28
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DaemonFChmmmJun 04 00:35
DaemonFCMP4 with variable bitrate frim 8-400kJun 04 00:36
DaemonFCseems fairly niceJun 04 00:36
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yuhongBTW, on puppet presses, here is another example.Jun 04 00:39
yuhongFrom http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169450&cid=14122939:Jun 04 00:39
yuhong"This rather reminds me of Wall Street's desperate attempts to declare the Google auction IPO a failure, even after Google got more than twice the dollars per share than they would have in an investment bank-priced IPO. If you can't beat them, have your puppet press hang an ugly label on them."Jun 04 00:39
DaemonFCyayJun 04 00:40
DaemonFCretribution!Jun 04 00:40
DaemonFC:PJun 04 00:40
yuhongBTW, on puppet presses, here is another example.Jun 04 00:41
yuhongin case you didn't already see it.Jun 04 00:41
yuhongFrom http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169450&cid=14122939:Jun 04 00:42
yuhong"This rather reminds me of Wall Street's desperate attempts to declare the Google auction IPO a failure, even after Google got more than twice the dollars per share than they would have in an investment bank-priced IPO. If you can't beat them, have your puppet press hang an ugly label on them."Jun 04 00:42
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DaemonFCNero's AAC encoder actually isn't all that badJun 04 00:42
DaemonFCquality-wise, you really can't get a one size fits all codec is seemsJun 04 00:51
DaemonFCthey all handle certain audio samples better than othersJun 04 00:51
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DaemonFCHere's an example of one subtle way Microsoft makes MP4 and Vorbis unattractive on WindowsJun 04 01:54
DaemonFCHere you notice that when I select the MP4, Windows Explorer just gives me the file information same as any standard fileJun 04 01:54
DaemonFChttp://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6579/42040606.pngJun 04 01:54
DaemonFChttp://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8299/94315462.pngJun 04 01:55
DaemonFCBut when I click on the WMA, suddenly Windows Explorer is a tag editor tooJun 04 01:55
DaemonFCit can edit tags on MP3s too, but with the number of people that use MP3, I doubt they could have gotten away with giving it no supportJun 04 01:56
DaemonFCMicrosoft still hosts a comparison site for WMA and MP3 boasting that their 2007 iteration of WMA beats the now 20 year old MP3Jun 04 01:56
DaemonFCwhich is a bit like bragging that they won the special olympics by shooting the blind guy in both kneecapsJun 04 01:57
DaemonFChmmm, 4 gig sandisk player for $38Jun 04 02:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: I wonder why only the extremely expensive and extremely cheap players play VorbisJun 04 02:28
DaemonFCthis is oddJun 04 02:32
DaemonFCthe manufacturer lists this for $250 but Newegg is selling them for $70Jun 04 02:32
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DaemonFCwhere is oiaohm when you need himJun 04 03:28
DaemonFCschestowitz: Would you think that libmtp is violating Microsoft patents?Jun 04 03:28
DaemonFCor potentially anyway?Jun 04 03:29
DaemonFCthis MP3 player I'm looking at can do MTP or MSC modeJun 04 03:29
DaemonFCI'll probably just put it in MSC mode and use that since Windows and Linux both understand itJun 04 03:30
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fewaSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTJun 04 03:49
fewahttp://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090602/2349035107.shtml bill taxing downoads could be construed to tax free softwareJun 04 03:50
fewaHOLYYY SHITTTTTTJun 04 03:50
fewaschestowitz,Jun 04 03:50
fewawe gotta get an exclusion passedJun 04 03:50
fewalook at 302 S 10, 11 and 304 S 5Jun 04 03:51
fewa304 S 5 "    (5) "Value of the digital good or digital code used" means theJun 04 03:52
fewapurchase price for the digital good or digital code, the use of whichJun 04 03:52
fewais taxable under this chapter. If the digital good or digital code isJun 04 03:52
fewaacquired other than by purchase, the value of the digital good orJun 04 03:52
fewadigital code must be determined as nearly as possible according to theJun 04 03:52
fewaretail selling price at place of use of similar digital goods orJun 04 03:52
fewadigital codes of like quality and character under rules the departmentJun 04 03:52
fewamay prescribe;Jun 04 03:52
fewa"Jun 04 03:52
fewanotice "the value of the digital good or digital code must be determined as nearly as possible according to theretail selling price at place of use of similar digital goods "Jun 04 03:52
DaemonFCthat will be almost impossible to enforceJun 04 04:04
fewastill, it needs to be excludedJun 04 04:04
DaemonFCand will be overturned about precisely the first time the state does anything with itJun 04 04:04
fewaintroducing artificial barriers on a basically free commodity (bandwidth) is brokeJun 04 04:05
DaemonFCbasically what happened is that some 90 year old codger in the Washington state legislature who doesn't know the internet from the "series of tubes" thought this was a good way to raise revenueJun 04 04:06
DaemonFC:PJun 04 04:06
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fewayeahJun 04 04:06
fewaand my rep voted for itJun 04 04:06
fewaim like shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiJun 04 04:06
DaemonFCbesides, their bill not only violates the interstate commerce clause in the US constitution..........it not only sets a vague definition of the value they are trying to tax, it also violates US statute on the moratorium against internet taxationJun 04 04:07
DaemonFCso they are probably violating 2 parts of the constitution and one normal lawJun 04 04:07
DaemonFCthat I can think ofJun 04 04:07
DaemonFCit's an unapportioned taxJun 04 04:07
DaemonFCit interferes with interstate commerceJun 04 04:08
fewayeah that was my first reactionJun 04 04:08
DaemonFCand it violates the federal ban on internet related taxationJun 04 04:08
fewainterstate commerceJun 04 04:08
DaemonFCI'd love to be the judge that hears this caseJun 04 04:08
DaemonFCI'd have my fiunding of fact before the 2nd day of the trialJun 04 04:09
DaemonFC:PJun 04 04:09
DaemonFC*findingJun 04 04:09
DaemonFCI'll bet you they never even try to enforce itJun 04 04:12
DaemonFCand even if they do, the EFF will eat them for breakfastJun 04 04:12
DaemonFCit would also be almost impossible for an auditor to even tell you what you owed themJun 04 04:13
fewai still better call up my rep and explain what it was that was voted forJun 04 04:13
DaemonFChehJun 04 04:15
DaemonFChope yours is better than mineJun 04 04:15
DaemonFCour's makes George W. Bush look like the most liberal politician you've ever seenJun 04 04:16
DaemonFChe's also one of the most corrupt representatives in the HouseJun 04 04:16
DaemonFChe goes on golfing outing sponsored by Eli LillyJun 04 04:16
DaemonFC(big drug company)Jun 04 04:16
fewaMy rep is greatJun 04 04:17
DaemonFChe was on one such outing when he missed a vote reauthorizing the Iraq WarJun 04 04:17
fewashe just didnt know what she was voting for IMHOJun 04 04:17
DaemonFCthough I think it's probably best that we just pay him $200,000 a year to golfJun 04 04:17
DaemonFC:PJun 04 04:17
DaemonFCthe more votes he misses, the better off this country isJun 04 04:17
fewaim talking about state rep howeverJun 04 04:17
fewanot federalJun 04 04:18
DaemonFCoh, well, you'll have better luck with themJun 04 04:18
fewasmall districtsJun 04 04:18
DaemonFCI've actually gotten personal replies from some of my state level repsJun 04 04:18
fewatell your fed rep you support this: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/05/new-bill-wants-fiber-conduit-built-into-every-road-project.arsJun 04 04:18
amarsh04.au defence minister resignsJun 04 04:18
fewahttp://tinyurl.com/hr2428Jun 04 04:19
DaemonFChmmm, development on LAME has basically ground to a haltJun 04 04:22
DaemonFConly a few trivial bug fixes since January 2007Jun 04 04:23
DaemonFCprobably has ran its course and is about as good as MP3 will getJun 04 04:24
fewayeah thats what i was going to say, doesnt mean its abandoned, means its doneJun 04 04:24
DaemonFCI'm pretty impressed with itJun 04 04:26
DaemonFCyou can still see a notable difference between their encoder and the latest official MP3 encoderJun 04 04:26
DaemonFCespecially with variable bitrateJun 04 04:27
DaemonFCWinamp is owned by AOL, so they have to use the official encoders and pay licenses for themJun 04 04:29
DaemonFCreference encoders tend to be shitty and wasteful with bits, if they even support VBRJun 04 04:29
DaemonFCI was playing around with Winamp's AAC encoder, there's no VBR support at allJun 04 04:31
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fewawow now we have a good moral ground on getting north korea, etc to tell us about their nuclear programsJun 04 04:42
fewahttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/confidential-list-of-us-nuke-sites-ends-up-on-wikileaks.arsJun 04 04:43
DaemonFCWe should go into North Korea using unlicensed MP3 files as probable causeJun 04 04:43
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 04:43
DaemonFCmakes as much sense as the RIAA using that excuse for raiding drug housesJun 04 04:43
DaemonFCwhat sucks is that I would be using HE-AAC but no portables support itJun 04 04:45
fewahttp://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/06/03Jun 04 04:46
fewatheoraJun 04 04:46
DaemonFCI think it's a conspiracy to upsell you to other portables they sell with more storageJun 04 04:46
fewavwhoops vorbisJun 04 04:46
DaemonFCHE-AAC is technically superior to Vorbis at bitrates below 80 kbpsJun 04 04:46
fewaisnt vorbis really good? its used heavily in video gamesJun 04 04:46
DaemonFCit uses a few tricks that WMA Pro and MP3 Pro triedJun 04 04:47
DaemonFCbut combines them with AAC encodingJun 04 04:47
DaemonFCVorbis is good, but not at extremely low bitratesJun 04 04:47
fewawhy do you need low bit tratesJun 04 04:47
fewastorage is soo cheapJun 04 04:47
DaemonFCwhat happens with HE-AAC and WMA Pro is that they use Spectral Band Replication and a few other tricksJun 04 04:47
DaemonFCto preserve quality at very low bitratesJun 04 04:48
DaemonFCthey're intended for streaming, but you can encode your library to themJun 04 04:48
DaemonFCunfortunately neither is really well supported on portable devicesJun 04 04:48
DaemonFCeven the Zune can't play WMA Pro properlyJun 04 04:48
DaemonFCit can decode the normal WMA part, but not the Spectral Band Replication tagJun 04 04:49
fewamp3 is good enough for most people, therefore it doesnt matterJun 04 04:49
DaemonFCMP3 is only really still alive because everything supports itJun 04 04:49
fewaand the zune virally infects peoples music, violating the creative commons licenceJun 04 04:49
DaemonFCyou don't have to check to see if a gadget supports itJun 04 04:49
amarsh04the iriver supports oggJun 04 04:49
DaemonFCwell, there aren't that many name brand or reasonably priced players that support VorbisJun 04 04:50
DaemonFCI just bought a $55 portable media player (Sandisk) with 8 gigs, the cheapest thing I could find with 8 gigs of storage that played Vorbis was over $100Jun 04 04:51
DaemonFCthat was a Samsung P2Jun 04 04:51
DaemonFCso I'd rather just make MP3 or AAC files than pay twice as much for a playerJun 04 04:52
DaemonFCI mean it's good that Vorbis is finally getting some name brand recognition, but unless they can find their way into sub-$100 players, they're missing a lot of the market who will continue to use MPEG or Windows Media insteadJun 04 04:53
fewai will never use windows mediaJun 04 04:53
DaemonFCI use MPEG formatsJun 04 04:54
fewawindows media is a piece of shit propritarized by a monopoly abuserJun 04 04:54
DaemonFCWindows Media isn't that popularJun 04 04:54
DaemonFCMicrosoft can't even get most Windows users to touch itJun 04 04:54
DaemonFCdespite trying to rape you with itJun 04 04:54
fewaits abuse of monopoly positionJun 04 04:55
fewaits an infirier productJun 04 04:55
DaemonFCI've encoded to WMA a couple of times jsut to see how it fared next to other codecsJun 04 04:55
DaemonFCbut I've never been compelled to use itJun 04 04:55
DaemonFCIt's comparable in quality as of late, but it still doesn't play well with other operating systemsJun 04 04:56
DaemonFCand the licensing is scaryJun 04 04:56
fewathe MPEG patents will expire, windows will never open its formatsJun 04 04:56
fewa*microsoftJun 04 04:56
DaemonFCtechnically the Windows Media patents will expireJun 04 04:56
DaemonFCright?Jun 04 04:56
fewabut the specs arnt open i believeJun 04 04:57
DaemonFCthey've been reverse engineeredJun 04 04:57
fewathought they just sold binariesJun 04 04:57
DaemonFCyou can encode to WMA on LinuxJun 04 04:57
DaemonFCdon't know why you wouldJun 04 04:57
DaemonFCbut you canJun 04 04:57
fewaexactlyJun 04 04:57
DaemonFCthe reverse engineering was mainly to play back files that already existedJun 04 04:57
DaemonFCor transcode themJun 04 04:58
DaemonFCyou know what Microsoft says, they don't follow standards, they make themJun 04 04:59
DaemonFCAAC and HE-AAC give WMA a beatingJun 04 04:59
fewaMPEG are standards, and they are developed because of patentsJun 04 05:00
fewaif the patent's duration was a little shorter the model could workJun 04 05:01
DaemonFCI've noticed that FAAC at 100% Quality will put out files that are about 1/3rd smaller than Standard Lame MP3Jun 04 05:01
DaemonFCI'll probably encode to AAC with FAAC for this deviceJun 04 05:01
DaemonFCthe MPEG group isn't hostile twoards non-commercial encodersJun 04 05:02
fewaexactlyJun 04 05:02
DaemonFCsomething tells me Microsoft would sue anyone that tried to market a WMA encoderJun 04 05:02
DaemonFCit's not in MPEG's interest to start suing peopleJun 04 05:02
DaemonFCtheir goal is to be popular and work everywhereJun 04 05:03
fewathey just was to be the best formats, and the standard formatsJun 04 05:03
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DaemonFCMPEG formats are generally pretty goodJun 04 05:04
fewaMPEG's business strategy is a working modelJun 04 05:04
DaemonFCyou can transcode a Blu Ray movie into MPEG 4 and get it to fit on a standard single layer DVDJun 04 05:04
DaemonFCwith no reall loss in qualityJun 04 05:04
fewayepJun 04 05:04
twitterlolJun 04 05:04
fewaall the ones on the internet are like thatJun 04 05:04
fewabut it takes a more expensive processor, so thats why blu-ray is like it isJun 04 05:05
twitterI wonder when Google will go theoraJun 04 05:05
DaemonFCMicrosoft was backing HD-DVD because it used their codecJun 04 05:05
DaemonFCVC-1Jun 04 05:05
DaemonFCif HD-DVD took off, Microsoft would get a per disc royaltyJun 04 05:05
fewatoshiba is a abuser like microsoftJun 04 05:05
fewathats why blu-ray wonJun 04 05:05
DaemonFCbut it didn't :)Jun 04 05:05
neonflossbluray will only last a short timeJun 04 05:06
DaemonFCno, Blu Ray won because porn and video games were on itJun 04 05:06
neonflossssd ftwJun 04 05:06
twitterblue ray has DRM, you don't want itJun 04 05:06
fewai dont use itJun 04 05:06
fewaoptic media is obsoleteJun 04 05:06
DaemonFCI just use DVDJun 04 05:06
DaemonFCstill looks fine to meJun 04 05:06
fewahard drives and flash is now cheaper, and more reliable, and requires no absurd burn/read/mastering and manual loadingJun 04 05:07
DaemonFCwell, Sony could have used a standard DVD and just switched to MPEG-4Jun 04 05:08
DaemonFCbut they want the files to be massive and unwieldyJun 04 05:08
fewalike DivX on CDsJun 04 05:08
DaemonFCDivX isn't all that greatJun 04 05:08
DaemonFCH.264 is far betterJun 04 05:08
fewaok H.264 on CDsJun 04 05:09
fewaat DVD qualityJun 04 05:09
DaemonFCyeah, codecs have gotten a lot betterJun 04 05:09
DaemonFCso it makes no sense that Sony would use MPEG-2Jun 04 05:09
twitterBN is DDoSed?Jun 04 05:09
DaemonFCunless they wanted large filesJun 04 05:09
fewaDTV uses MPEG-2Jun 04 05:09
DaemonFCagain, ridiculousJun 04 05:10
fewaand the government mandated a patented systemJun 04 05:10
fewabullshitJun 04 05:10
DaemonFCthey could have the same quality in 1/10th the bandwidthJun 04 05:10
DaemonFCwith MPEG-4Jun 04 05:10
fewashould have had a system which could use any codecJun 04 05:10
DaemonFCTheora really isn't matureJun 04 05:11
fewaand have a upgrade pathJun 04 05:11
DaemonFCstill has a few kinksJun 04 05:11
DaemonFCthe whole idea of better codecs is to make small files without compromising qualityJun 04 05:12
DaemonFCso why the hell are they using 20 year old codecs?Jun 04 05:12
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 05:12
twitterlooks like IRC is DDoS'd too.Jun 04 05:13
DaemonFCfewa: I back up my songs to DVD, I never actually burn audio CDsJun 04 05:13
twitterBeam me up, there's nothing useful here.Jun 04 05:13
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DaemonFCAAC can give you pretty much CD quality with files that average 5-6 megsJun 04 05:14
DaemonFCMP3 needs more like 9-10 to get the same perceived qualityJun 04 05:14
DaemonFCit stands to reason that I'd rather buy a player that costs half as much than use a codec that needs twice the storageJun 04 05:15
fewabut media is sooo cheap that for storage media it doesnt matterJun 04 05:15
fewathe only place where good codecs are important is broadcast mediaJun 04 05:15
fewaand bandwidth over the netJun 04 05:15
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neonflossand portable mediaJun 04 05:16
fewawhich is why MPEG2 for DTV was reallt stupidJun 04 05:16
fewabut portable players that can support modern codecs have to have more processing power and use more wattsJun 04 05:16
fewaso there has to be balanceJun 04 05:16
DaemonFCfewa: Not trueJun 04 05:17
DaemonFCI buy refurb/open box stuff mainlyJun 04 05:18
fewaewll at least in videoJun 04 05:18
fewamo comp was left out of H.263, and DivX/XviD because of its high cpu usageJun 04 05:18
DaemonFCplus the earbuds on those things is hardly a hi fidelity sound systemJun 04 05:18
DaemonFCyou can cram a lot of songs into 8 gigsJun 04 05:19
DaemonFCwith a portable, you want a "best bang for the buck" codecJun 04 05:19
DaemonFCwhich is why I wish they supported HE-AACJun 04 05:21
DaemonFC48k bitrate would suddenly be reasonableJun 04 05:21
DaemonFCyou could fit an entire CD into about 12-14 megsJun 04 05:21
DaemonFCI know it sounds odd, but HE-AAC at 64k is about like a 128k MP3Jun 04 05:23
DaemonFCperhaps even betterJun 04 05:23
DaemonFCjust that the files can't be read by a standard decoderJun 04 05:24
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fewawow, thats niceJun 04 05:25
fewaVoIP codecs can be that small tooJun 04 05:25
oiaohmOk what did I just missJun 04 05:25
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Omar87Hi allJun 04 05:29
DaemonFCoiaohm: Just me babbling on about codecsJun 04 05:54
DaemonFCI decided to go with M4AJun 04 05:54
DaemonFCoiaohm: Should a player that says it supports AAC support the M4A container too?Jun 04 05:57
oiaohmI would need my cross reference tables on features on that DaemonFCJun 04 05:58
DaemonFCAAC is just a containerJun 04 05:59
DaemonFCMPEG-4 audio is one of the things it can holdJun 04 05:59
oiaohmI would guess so but you never can be sure.Jun 04 06:01
DaemonFCthey probably just refer to M4A as AAC because that's how Apple doesJun 04 06:02
DaemonFChttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16855125118Jun 04 06:02
DaemonFCthat's the player I went withJun 04 06:03
DaemonFCthis is probably hy VBR is so much more effective on MPEG-4 audio than MP3Jun 04 06:10
DaemonFCshorter frames and arbitrary bitrate supportJun 04 06:10
DaemonFChttp://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000470.htmlJun 04 06:15
fewai need a fast usb flash driveJun 04 06:31
fewathis one is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowJun 04 06:31
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yuhongI think MS's astroturfing is a good example of how PR 2.0 and social media can be abused.Jun 04 06:37
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DaemonFChmmm, FAAC seems slightly better than Vorbis, it's just not very well documentedJun 04 06:47
DaemonFCit took me a while to find out exactly what I was doing with itJun 04 06:48
DaemonFCFAAC seems to use a psychoaccoustic analyzer based on gsycho (at least it behaves about the same) only thanks to AAC being far better than MP3, it can change the bitrate much more often and to any value it likesJun 04 06:49
DaemonFCso while MP3 has a range of values between 32-320k, AAC can do 2-infinityJun 04 06:50
DaemonFCin increments of 1Jun 04 06:50
DaemonFC(very coolJun 04 06:50
DaemonFCso VBR settings are much more fluid, and it can allocate bits to precisely what needs them the mostJun 04 06:51
DaemonFCtrounces MP3Jun 04 06:51
tessierHow does it compare with FLAC?Jun 04 06:52
DaemonFCFLAC is lossless, AAC/M4A is lossyJun 04 06:52
DaemonFCyou should be asking how it compares to other lossy codecsJun 04 06:52
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 06:52
tessierRight but how does the sound quality for the file size compare?Jun 04 06:52
DaemonFCFAAC uses a quality settings slider defaulting at 100% and going to 500%Jun 04 06:53
tessierGiven how huge disks are and that I haven't run out of storage in years I think bandwidth is the only reason anyone bothers with lossy compression anymoreJun 04 06:53
tessierI guess there is still a bit of a storage issue on an ipod but even that is pretty huge.Jun 04 06:53
tessierOnly the flash based ones.Jun 04 06:54
DaemonFCmy example file of Fine Again by Seether was 30.9 megs as FLACJun 04 06:54
DaemonFCFAAC at 500% it's 9.11 megsJun 04 06:54
DaemonFCand I can't tell a differenceJun 04 06:54
DaemonFCdepending on where you're at in the file, it's between 14k and 611kJun 04 06:54
DaemonFCas AACJun 04 06:54
tessierDoes FAAC have any patent encumbrences or anything?Jun 04 06:54
DaemonFCAAC doesJun 04 06:55
DaemonFCit's from the same people that did MP3Jun 04 06:55
DaemonFCso FAAC is to AAC as LAME is to MP3Jun 04 06:55
tessierSo FAAC does not?Jun 04 06:55
DaemonFCFAAC is free software that "describes" an encoder ;)Jun 04 06:55
DaemonFCand distributed as sourceJun 04 06:55
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DaemonFCnothing that they would bother suing overJun 04 06:56
DaemonFCunless you started selling something that contained FAAC in itJun 04 06:56
DaemonFCsame deal as LAMEJun 04 06:56
DaemonFCtessier: If you use FAAC in Linux as part of Gstreamer, it's going to spit out corrupt filesJun 04 06:57
DaemonFCbecause it defailts to MAIN instead of Low Complexity AACJun 04 06:58
DaemonFCI have no idea how to change it because I didn't bother researching why it was doing that muchJun 04 06:58
DaemonFCa number of other people filed bug reports in Ubuntu about that and never got anywhereJun 04 06:58
DaemonFCit's some kind of encoder glitch if you try to use that encoding style (which pretty much everything uses Low Complexity anyway)Jun 04 06:59
DaemonFCso I'm not entirely sure why they defailt to MAINJun 04 06:59
DaemonFCthe only reason I figured that out is because BonkEnc on Windows lets you select encoder modules and I have to push all the buttons :)Jun 04 07:00
DaemonFCno encoding software that I've seen uses anything but LC/AAC, much less lets you select anything elseJun 04 07:01
DaemonFCprobably some assmonkeys in GNOME that decided that there encoding software won't have a way to let you choose LCJun 04 07:02
DaemonFCor hidden in a .config file somwhereJun 04 07:02
DaemonFCpfft :PJun 04 07:02
DaemonFC*theirJun 04 07:02
DaemonFCor you could probably pass along the proper command to the encoder by hand editing the encoder profileJun 04 07:05
DaemonFCfunJun 04 07:05
DaemonFCtessier: I definitely can't tell VBR AAC from the FLAC at around 200% on the FAAC quality scaleJun 04 07:15
DaemonFCat this point the AAC is 6.58 megs to the FLAC's 30.9 megsJun 04 07:16
DaemonFCthat's pretty decent since  the VBR MP3 has to be 9.63 megs for transparencyJun 04 07:17
fewahow is FLAC so good?Jun 04 07:18
DaemonFCso the VBR MP3 has to be 46% bigger to achieve transparency of VBR AACJun 04 07:18
DaemonFCFLAC is just raw PCM audio with file compressionJun 04 07:18
DaemonFCit's an exact copy of the CD audio pretty muchJun 04 07:18
fewabut thats really good when comparing lossy to losslessJun 04 07:19
fewayou could never do that with videoJun 04 07:19
DaemonFCactually they doJun 04 07:19
DaemonFCraw video is insurmountably hugeJun 04 07:19
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 07:19
fewathats what im sayingJun 04 07:19
fewaeither the compression of FLAC is amazing or the lossy compression sucksJun 04 07:20
DaemonFCFLAC generally is about 25-50% smaller than WAV (raw PCM)Jun 04 07:20
fewato be only 3x lossyJun 04 07:20
DaemonFCso AAC achieves transparency at roughly 10% the file size of the CD data streamJun 04 07:20
DaemonFCwhich is a neat trickJun 04 07:20
fewaFLAC is not just regular compression, however, its especially designed for audioJun 04 07:21
DaemonFCtrueJun 04 07:21
fewalike LZMA/XZ has special filters for code calling designJun 04 07:21
DaemonFCI've also tried HE-AACJun 04 07:21
fewathat can give compiled  code an extra 10% compressionJun 04 07:21
DaemonFCyou can get transparency at roughly 5% the file size of WAVJun 04 07:22
fewaon certain architecturesJun 04 07:22
DaemonFCI'm gonna download one of Microsoft's dare to compare clipsJun 04 07:22
DaemonFClmaoJun 04 07:22
DaemonFCsee what I can do to the WAV file they provideJun 04 07:22
DaemonFCunfortunately the most complicated file they have is a Travis Tritt songJun 04 07:27
MinceRhttp://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4232_89696891871_504366871_2042417_4595941_n.jpgJun 04 07:35
DaemonFChmm, there's something I didn't noticeJun 04 07:37
DaemonFCFAAC supports temporal noise shapingJun 04 07:38
*schestowitz done watching.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gwV8etx4sI&feature=relatedJun 04 07:41
neonflosshows life schestowitz ?Jun 04 07:43
schestowitzQuite all rightJun 04 07:45
schestowitzBeen too hot here recently.Jun 04 07:45
neonflossuk?Jun 04 07:45
kentmayeah, very hot here.Jun 04 07:46
neonflosswow ive been looking for someone from uk all day :PJun 04 07:47
kentmait's very humid here, so when it's hot, it's hot and humid, which is, well, a bit oppressive...Jun 04 07:47
*kentma waves from ukJun 04 07:47
neonflossheh. its pretty embarrassing but I want somene to help me sign up for spotifyJun 04 07:47
neonflossnot humid hereJun 04 07:48
neonflossperfect weatherJun 04 07:48
kentmawhere are you?Jun 04 07:48
kentmawhat is spotify, btw?Jun 04 07:48
neonflosscanadaJun 04 07:48
neonflossspotify is this music streaming thingJun 04 07:48
kentmaah, canada, yes.  I go there quite a lot.  Where abouts are you?Jun 04 07:49
neonflosscurrently in torontoJun 04 07:49
neonflossI can give you an free version invite of spotify if you wantJun 04 07:49
kentmaI'm probably the wrong age group :-)Jun 04 07:49
neonflosshow old are you?Jun 04 07:49
kentma40-something ish.Jun 04 07:50
kentmahang onJun 04 07:50
neonflosssureJun 04 07:50
kentmaI think 45Jun 04 07:50
neonflosslulzJun 04 07:50
neonflossdont knowJun 04 07:50
kentmaI'm never very sure - I don't really track birthdays and the like.Jun 04 07:50
neonflosssame hereJun 04 07:50
neonflossand im much youngerJun 04 07:50
neonflossim just not used to others not konwingJun 04 07:51
neonfloss:PJun 04 07:51
kentmaI like Toronto, btw.  Have a lot of family there.  My sister lives near Georgetown; was lecturing in Guelph for a while... industrial psych!Jun 04 07:51
neonfloss:)Jun 04 07:52
kentmaI'll probably be in Guelph again next xmas, hopefully, anyway.Jun 04 07:53
kentmaI read recently that Toronto was considering doing air-con using the lake - did that take off, do you know?Jun 04 07:53
neonflossprob not I thinkJun 04 07:54
neonflosswe are an apathetic bunchJun 04 07:54
kentma:-)Jun 04 07:54
neonflossnot goodJun 04 07:55
schestowitzThe MAFIAA takes it propaganda to more schools: http://www.itnews.com.au/News/104627,aussie-anti-piracy-battle-moves-into-schools.aspxJun 04 08:04
fewaschestowitz, the eff released a more balanced curriculumJun 04 08:05
schestowitzYeahJun 04 08:05
schestowitzBut the schools is owned by lobbiesJun 04 08:05
schestowitzThey decide what's important for the childrenJun 04 08:05
fewahttp://www.teachingcopyright.org/Jun 04 08:05
schestowitzUnder the guise of terms like "their future careers"Jun 04 08:05
fewayeah that bsJun 04 08:06
schestowitzTony La Russa suing Twitter for trademark infringement < http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bird-land/bird-land/2009/06/tony-la-russa-suing-twitter-for-trademark-infringement/ >Jun 04 08:08
fewathey have already lostJun 04 08:09
schestowitzThis should make you think of Microsoft and SCO: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/03/business/03litigate.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&pagewanted=allJun 04 08:09
fewamicrosoft is going to be the next SCOJun 04 08:10
schestowitzIt already isJun 04 08:10
schestowitzWant To Know How Not To Encourage Innovation? Double Taxes On Technology < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090531/2316335073.shtml >Jun 04 08:10
schestowitzfewa: same characteristsicJun 04 08:10
schestowitzfewa: same characteristicsJun 04 08:10
schestowitzDeclining business (down 32% last quarter)Jun 04 08:11
schestowitzLawsuit against competition.Jun 04 08:11
schestowitzAttempts to embrace (SCOSource, CodePlex)Jun 04 08:11
schestowitzFailing to embrace, then getting angrier)Jun 04 08:11
schestowitzWIndows Server sales down 29%!!Jun 04 08:11
fewahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_2007#Attempt_to_patent_user_interface_elementsJun 04 08:12
schestowitzThis is why Digg is kaput: http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-digg-to-let-users-digg-ads/ (Digg’s New Advertising Platform; Marketers Pay Based On Diggs)Jun 04 08:13
fewadigg has been kaput for a long timeJun 04 08:14
DaemonFCWhat's funny about that is Microsoft destroyed their own legal standingJun 04 08:14
schestowitzAccusation of collusion in hiring process (Apple, MS, Google): http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-justice-department-looks-into-tech-industry-hiring/Jun 04 08:14
DaemonFCdefending themselves against AppleJun 04 08:14
DaemonFCback in the 90'sJun 04 08:14
DaemonFCwhen Apple sued them for copying the MacJun 04 08:15
fewaDaemonFC, interesting pointJun 04 08:15
fewalook and feel lawsuitJun 04 08:15
DaemonFCyesJun 04 08:15
fewathats why they have to patent these thingsJun 04 08:15
fewawhich is absurdJun 04 08:15
fewahttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/high-tech-hiring-under-investigation-by-the-doj.arsJun 04 08:17
fewadoesnt seem like anti-trust at allJun 04 08:17
fewahttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/monticello-appeals-court-win.arsJun 04 08:20
fewamore municipalities need to do thisJun 04 08:21
schestowitzWhat Red Hat and Novell Have in Common and What They Do Not < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/red-hat-and-novell-commonalities/ >Jun 04 08:26
schestowitzI had ITWire cover the Mono thing..Jun 04 08:28
schestowitzThis in my inbox this morning :-) http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25469/1090/Jun 04 08:28
schestowitzRed Hat's shunning of Mono starts getting a lot of attention.Jun 04 08:28
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schestowitzLinux.com -- weird stuff... I believe Gnote is also slated for inclusion by default in Debian and Ubuntu.Jun 04 08:33
schestowitzI went looking for it a couple of days ago to replace Tomboy on my current system. I haven't yet had a chance to install it and remove Tomboy.Jun 04 08:33
schestowitzOops. This one I meant to paste: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25471/1143/Jun 04 08:33
oiaohmschestowitz: think about it when has the Linux foundation been weirdJun 04 08:35
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DaemonFCwell, Red Hat moving away from it is a good thingJun 04 08:40
DaemonFCit removes some of Mono's appearance of legitimacy in the corporate worldJun 04 08:41
oiaohmEven worse for legitimacy it is looking like opensuse is turning on it as well.Jun 04 08:41
oiaohmmono was really about exploiting the open source world.   Could see the mips and arm thing comming.   They required applications to do the move.Jun 04 08:42
kentmamono is just bad.Jun 04 08:42
DaemonFCI don't think Mips will ever be mainstreamJun 04 08:44
DaemonFCI just don'tJun 04 08:44
oiaohmMono supporters annoy me.   They try to sell the idea that disk size is important.  Memory usage more important than disk.  And even then they don't do correct usage maths.Jun 04 08:44
DaemonFCand that's not just because of WindowsJun 04 08:44
oiaohmmips already has large numbers of users in china.Jun 04 08:45
DaemonFCthat's ChinaJun 04 08:45
oiaohmWith platform support you have to cover global DaemonFCJun 04 08:45
oiaohmYou cannot just disreguard it just because its china.Jun 04 08:45
DaemonFCwell, Linux is fairly portableJun 04 08:46
DaemonFCbut not all of the applications can go with itJun 04 08:46
DaemonFCusually because you need x86 to run Wine or proprietary software like FlashJun 04 08:46
schestowitz“I Believe Gnote is Also Slated for Inclusion by Default in Debian and Ubuntu” < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/mono-not-by-default/ >Jun 04 08:46
oiaohmThat is the thing DaemonFC.  Flash is avaible for arm and mips.Jun 04 08:47
oiaohmSo that leaves running windows binaries.Jun 04 08:47
DaemonFCreal flash or the reverse engineered implementations that *may* render Youtube videos and *only* cost 90% of a CPU core?Jun 04 08:47
oiaohmReal flash from adobe DaemonFCJun 04 08:48
oiaohmYou can buy it if you are a device builder.Jun 04 08:48
oiaohmJust like you can get realaudio for both as wellJun 04 08:48
oiaohmAnd its less than paying licences to MS.Jun 04 08:48
oiaohmThe game of independance is really down to windows applications only DaemonFCJun 04 08:49
DaemonFCWho cares about Real Audio?Jun 04 08:50
DaemonFCare they even still in business?Jun 04 08:50
DaemonFClmaoJun 04 08:50
oiaohmRealaudio provides basically all the default codecs windows provides to everyone else DaemonFCJun 04 08:50
schestowitzYouTube Releases YouTube XL < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/03/youtube-releases-youtube-xl >Jun 04 08:50
*schestowitz watched like 10k videos in YouTubeJun 04 08:51
DaemonFCReal Networks are a bunch of greedy cocks that almost made it big til they started hosing peoples computers with spywareJun 04 08:51
DaemonFCfuck themJun 04 08:51
oiaohmIncluding wma with drm support DaemonFCJun 04 08:51
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 08:51
DaemonFCand fuck WMA with or without DRM supportJun 04 08:52
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 08:52
DaemonFCif you're stupid enough to buy it you deserve whatever you getJun 04 08:53
schestowitzWe've just made FP of LinuxTodayJun 04 08:53
oiaohmSome people have collections.   At least you can back up the keys under Linux DaemonFC.Jun 04 08:53
schestowitzI don't like RNJun 04 08:53
schestowitzThey play with patent pools and stuffJun 04 08:54
schestowitzAlso makers of spywareJun 04 08:54
schestowitzAmong the firstJun 04 08:54
DaemonFCI would _never_ buy a music file with DRMJun 04 08:54
schestowitzRMS attributes it to themJun 04 08:54
DaemonFCthat's the only way to get them to stop doing itJun 04 08:54
schestowitzWM* is part of their settlement IIRCJun 04 08:54
schestowitzMS tried to kill them like NetscapeJun 04 08:54
schestowitzVery ugly exhibitsJun 04 08:54
DaemonFCapparently enough people feel like I doJun 04 08:54
DaemonFCwhich is why all these stores are selling genuine MP3sJun 04 08:55
oiaohmJust realaudio turned out to have nastier patents than MS.Jun 04 08:55
DaemonFCinstead of DRM'd whateverJun 04 08:55
oiaohmSo real basically uses MS patents without charge and MS pays them.Jun 04 08:55
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-03-010-35-OP-MS-0001Jun 04 08:56
schestowitzDo you reckon MS chosen a recursive acronym on purpose?Jun 04 08:56
schestowitzBING is Not GoogleJun 04 08:56
kentmayes, they're trying to get all unixyJun 04 08:56
schestowitzHeh.Jun 04 08:56
schestowitzProject MING comes to mindJun 04 08:57
schestowitzMicrosoft is Not GoogleJun 04 08:57
schestowitzMicrosoft is Not GoodJun 04 08:57
schestowitzMicrosoft is Not Innovative (MINI)Jun 04 08:57
ushimitsudokihowdyJun 04 08:57
schestowitzBut it needs the name of a project in MJun 04 08:58
schestowitzushimitsudoki: heyJun 04 08:58
schestowitzGood news re: MonoJun 04 08:58
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/mono-not-by-default/Jun 04 08:58
*ushimitsudoki is readingJun 04 08:58
schestowitzWhy Linux is Better than Mac (or, how I learned to stop worrying and love apt-get and debuild) < http://www.scottgrizzard.com/blog/2009/05/29/why-linux-is-better-than-mac-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-apt-get-and-debuild/ >Jun 04 08:59
schestowitz"However, if you know what you are doing, Macs Stink! This is really true if you are into open source software, because it is almost impossible to compile someone else’s code on a Mac, even if they wrote it for Mac."Jun 04 08:59
schestowitzAlready hounded by the Mac fanboisJun 04 08:59
DaemonFCWhich is why I've always tended to use Windows, I never could really stand the MacJun 04 08:59
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DaemonFCI've had to use them beforeJun 04 09:00
DaemonFCnever been impressedJun 04 09:00
DaemonFCI mean if I won a Mac in a contest I'd take it cause it's still a PC that can boot Vista right?Jun 04 09:00
ushimitsudokiHmmm ... I would love to see it, but I don't expect Ubuntu to replace Tomboy with Gnote. Tomboy is an official part of Gnome (to their eternal shame), and the pro-mono contingent is pretty strong in Ubuntuland. It's going to be a sticky thing keeping Banshee out, much less "breaking" the official Gnome desktopJun 04 09:00
DaemonFC(What to say to piss a Mac fanboi off)Jun 04 09:00
schestowitzThe Oggs and <video> are catching on: http://blog.dailymotion.com/2009/05/27/watch-videowithout-flash/ Excellent!Jun 04 09:00
schestowitzushimitsudoki: yes, Ubuntu would be hardJun 04 09:01
schestowitzDebian not as hardJun 04 09:01
DaemonFCschestowitz: I still couldn't find a reasonably good player that wasn't outragously overpriced that could play VorbisJun 04 09:01
schestowitziRiver (??) did this years agoJun 04 09:02
DaemonFCjust the extremely cheap and the expensive ones with touchscreens and other doodads I don't care aboutJun 04 09:02
schestowitzCreative IIRCJun 04 09:02
schestowitzBut that's ancientJun 04 09:02
schestowitzI had RealPlayer for my Palm in 2004Jun 04 09:02
schestowitzDon't know if it supported Ogg...Jun 04 09:02
oiaohmCurrent day realplayer does.  2004 1 I think not.Jun 04 09:03
DaemonFCtessier: http://www.mp3-tech.org/aac.htmlJun 04 09:04
DaemonFCAAC is part of the MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 specificationJun 04 09:05
DaemonFCyou should use the MPEG-4 version thoughJun 04 09:05
DaemonFCas it has some nice things the MPEG-2 AAC encoder doesn'tJun 04 09:05
fewahmm they are doing zelous user-agent detectionJun 04 09:07
fewainstead of just using the html5 fallbackJun 04 09:07
DaemonFCI'm pretty impressed with AACJun 04 09:07
oiaohmWe could see the fall of flash if enough sites go the html5/javascript path.Jun 04 09:08
fewait would still be useful for gamesJun 04 09:08
fewabut yeah for video i welcome its obsolesenceJun 04 09:09
DaemonFCif most video sites ever go HTML5 for multimedia, I'll uninstall flashJun 04 09:09
DaemonFCbut you know this won't happen til Internet Explorer supports itJun 04 09:09
fewajust turn it off in tools-->add-ons-->extentionsJun 04 09:09
oiaohmWith canvas javascript will be able to do games as well.Jun 04 09:09
fewaoiaohm, yes, but there is a large base of flash gamesJun 04 09:10
DaemonFCrealistically we're looking at around 2015 before half the web users use something besides IEJun 04 09:10
fewanahhJun 04 09:10
oiaohmDaemonFC:  Who says the old if not running firefox you cannot enter site will not return on IE usersJun 04 09:10
fewawave and other things will force people to upgradeJun 04 09:10
fewajust like how they instaled flash to get videoJun 04 09:10
oiaohmThe new browser war could start.Jun 04 09:10
oiaohmReason sites providing flash content risk having to pay adobe.Jun 04 09:11
DaemonFCwell, couldn't you retrofit that ability onto IE with some kind of add-in?Jun 04 09:11
oiaohmNop DaemonFCJun 04 09:11
oiaohmThe engine has to process the tag.Jun 04 09:11
oiaohmGoing html5 is cheeper for sites providing movie content.Jun 04 09:12
oiaohmUsers will just have to move with the times.Jun 04 09:12
schestowitzhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=10209Jun 04 09:12
schestowitztrollJun 04 09:12
oiaohmEither MS catchs up or gets locked out.Jun 04 09:12
fewaoiaohm, it would be possible with complicated javascript includes, but it wouldnt be worth itJun 04 09:12
oiaohmWhen the user can install firefox or chrome why would you bother making site complex.Jun 04 09:13
fewaexactlyJun 04 09:13
fewait would be like sun ODFJun 04 09:13
fewathey would just embed firefox in IEJun 04 09:13
fewa:PJun 04 09:14
oiaohmAlso remember 90 percent of web developers out there hate IE extreamly DaemonFCJun 04 09:14
fewaor webkitJun 04 09:14
oiaohmThis give them there chance to do what they have always wanted todo.Jun 04 09:14
fewaIE will dieJun 04 09:14
oiaohmLock the IE users out.Jun 04 09:14
DaemonFCI don't care about IE dying or whateverJun 04 09:14
DaemonFCI'd much rather see Microsoft jsut turn it into a decent browserJun 04 09:15
fewathey weere talking about adopting webkitJun 04 09:15
fewabut they use to attack webkitJun 04 09:15
DaemonFCIE 7 and 8 were both just attempts to copy FirefoxJun 04 09:15
fewathey have burned alot of bridgesJun 04 09:15
DaemonFCIE 8 does do one neat thing I wish Firefox didJun 04 09:15
DaemonFCtab grouping/color codingJun 04 09:15
DaemonFCthat is kind of neatJun 04 09:16
fewathere are addons that bring that to firefoxJun 04 09:16
oiaohmJust like multi lines of tabs I use in firefox.Jun 04 09:16
fewathe daily motion <video> works, but youtube.com/html5 doesntJun 04 09:17
fewai think youtube is doing MPEG in their <video>Jun 04 09:17
fewawhich safari and chrome will supportJun 04 09:17
schestowitztessier: update on OpenMono (seems promising enough): http://lwn.net/Articles/335878/Jun 04 09:20
fewa*openmokoJun 04 09:21
fewalittle slip thereJun 04 09:21
schestowitzBusting the whole Linux 'usability' myths: < http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/10things/?p=774 > (10 ways the Linux desktop improves the user experience)Jun 04 09:23
fewaschestowitz, microsoft admited linux was usable 10 years ago in the haloween papersJun 04 09:23
fewa"Most of the primary apps that people require when they move to Linux are already available for free. This includes web servers, POP clients, mail servers, text editors, etc "Jun 04 09:24
fewa"An advanced Win32 GUI user would have a short learning cycle to become productive [under Linux]. "Jun 04 09:24
schestowitzHehe.Jun 04 09:25
fewahttp://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween2.htmlJun 04 09:25
schestowitzHehe. http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/bing-bing-is-not-google/Jun 04 09:25
schestowitzDogpileJun 04 09:26
schestowitzMicrosoft's DogpileJun 04 09:26
fewadecision engineJun 04 09:28
schestowitzfewa: just quoted you: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/02/mono-an-infectious-disease/comment-page-1/#comment-64785Jun 04 09:38
schestowitzI could use help against proponents of MonoJun 04 09:38
schestowitzhttp://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/06/boston_police_g.html "Remember, the "terrorist threats" that plague Boston include blinking signs, blinking name badges, and Linux. Would you trust the police there with automatic weapons?"Jun 04 09:41
schestowitzhttp://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/06/update_on_compu.html "In April, I blogged about the Boston police seizing a student's computer for, among other things, running Linux. (Anyone who runs Linux instead of Windows is obviously a scary bad hacker.)"Jun 04 09:41
fewageezeJun 04 09:42
schestowitzkentma:  BT to roll-out faster broadband < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8081226.stm >Jun 04 09:42
MinceRj0h0h0Jun 04 09:42
fewaIn the UK most officers dont even have gunsJun 04 09:42
fewaor tasersJun 04 09:43
schestowitzDifferent in the USJun 04 09:44
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaS2bRGS86cJun 04 09:44
oiaohmHmm not one person tried to defend Mono there.Jun 04 09:44
schestowitz(George Carlin - We Like War)Jun 04 09:44
fewayou should have included the source on those microsoft quotesJun 04 09:44
schestowitzoiaohm: wait until Jo steps inJun 04 09:44
schestowitzOr Jeff WaughJun 04 09:44
schestowitzHe used to harass Sam tooJun 04 09:45
schestowitzfewa: I knowJun 04 09:45
oiaohmNo sure they will show there heads on it.Jun 04 09:45
oiaohmjo is unlikely.   Jo pointed to the open patent protection on the CIL and the C# langage agaist me in another form.  Only to have it pointed out that does not cover anything in the runtime of .netJun 04 09:47
oiaohmThat is under a MIT licence so everyone is on there own.Jun 04 09:47
oiaohmWhat is the point of .net without a runtime.Jun 04 09:47
schestowitzThe bully is i Turjey now: http://blogg.idg.se/kylling/entry.jsp?messid=10673Jun 04 09:49
schestowitzID database snooped for celebrities' secrets  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184506/id-database-snooped-celebrities-secrets > Does make you think twice about privacy in general. Google and other Web companies possess a lot of info tooJun 04 09:50
schestowitzWeird: Apple confirms $1bn data center < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/apple_1bn_north_carolina_data_center/ >Jun 04 09:52
schestowitzTim Anderson the Microsoft booster is still writing for the Reg:...http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/bing_review/Jun 04 09:52
schestowitzMicrosoft rips off Wikipedia and does not link to it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/03/bing_and_wikipedia/Jun 04 09:54
schestowitzATMs running Microsoft Windows get OWN3D in large numbers: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/03/atm_trojans/ When will they learn?Jun 04 09:59
fewaOOO i need to DMCA microsoftJun 04 10:02
fewarunning ATMs with windowsJun 04 10:07
fewaWTFJun 04 10:07
fewathats one application where TC would be usefulJun 04 10:08
schestowitzTens of thousands of web sites fall victim to a mass hack attack < http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/139818/from/rss09 > Injection..Jun 04 10:08
*sdhivya (n=sdhivya@nat/novell/x-f3dda8d01a26c3a9) has joined #boycottnovellJun 04 10:09
fewalol "that targeted ATMs made by Diebold. "Jun 04 10:09
fewamore diebold junkJun 04 10:09
schestowitzWhat's in a Name: Can Trademarks be Helpful to Free Software Projects? < http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2009/public/schedule/detail/8190 > SFLC in ORLY conference.Jun 04 10:11
schestowitzDidn't Diebold rebrand?Jun 04 10:11
fewato what?Jun 04 10:12
MinceRi doubt TC could significantly help such a fiascoJun 04 10:12
fewai would like to knowJun 04 10:12
schestowitzOr maybe move the voting machines under another brand/susidiary?Jun 04 10:12
MinceRyes they did, iircJun 04 10:12
schestowitz*subJun 04 10:12
fewaMinceR, require anything executed to be signedJun 04 10:12
MinceRhm, apparently they only renamed their voting machinesJun 04 10:12
fewaMinceR, but alot could be done without TC just requireing signatures on executablesJun 04 10:12
MinceRthat doesn't help vulnerabilities in the osJun 04 10:13
fewathe MAC which windows completely lacksJun 04 10:13
oiaohmI am getting the felling my comment on the mono one from the person who ways saying it good has been eaten by the net somewhere schestowitz here is it in a pastebin http://pastebin.com/d2d8167fdJun 04 10:13
MinceReven if the executable is signed, the bugs are still thereJun 04 10:13
MinceRand you can run code as that executableJun 04 10:13
fewabuggy windows shitJun 04 10:13
MinceReven in other processes via remote threadsJun 04 10:13
fewayeah most viruses run completely on other processesJun 04 10:13
fewaor in hardware interruptsJun 04 10:14
fewacrazyJun 04 10:14
MinceRcode you inject will probably not survive a reboot but that won't do muchJun 04 10:14
schestowitzThe great Tiananmen taboo < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/02/tiananmen-square-protests-1989-china >Jun 04 10:14
fewalinux w/ MAC like selinux/apparmorJun 04 10:14
oiaohmCode injection does not live threw reboots unless you can get it on disk.Jun 04 10:14
MinceRindeedJun 04 10:14
oiaohmYou can memory inject in Linux too fewa but its harder.Jun 04 10:14
MinceRand that's where TC has a chance of helpingJun 04 10:14
MinceR(the altered executable will fail the signature check)Jun 04 10:15
fewaMinceR, but TC is not the weak pointJun 04 10:15
MinceRthough that also depends on what they do about new executablesJun 04 10:15
MinceRfewa: i know, windows isJun 04 10:15
MinceRtc merely fails to help :>Jun 04 10:15
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oiaohmSigned programs can be done with Linux as well.Jun 04 10:15
fewai cant believe they are using windowsJun 04 10:15
oiaohmIt really does not stop attackers.Jun 04 10:15
MinceReven tc can work with linuxJun 04 10:15
fewaits that diebold shitJun 04 10:16
schestowitzGrand Theft Auto: How Stevie the Rat bankrupted GM   < http://www.gregpalast.com/grand-theft-auto-how-stevie-the-rat-bankrupted-gm/ >Jun 04 10:16
oiaohmThere are many places to get around the signed.Jun 04 10:16
fewathe company that is probably on both sides of their security holesJun 04 10:16
schestowitz"Obama's plan for GM's bankruptcy would raid workers' pension funds to give some banks 100% of their loans.  So who is Obama really working for?" http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#04%20June%202009%20%28Pension%20funds%29Jun 04 10:16
MinceRpeople use windows for many purposes despite windows being a useless pile of stolen code and hacksJun 04 10:16
fewaschestowitz, and obama will not get GM's promits from chinaJun 04 10:16
schestowitzoiaohm: where is the comment from?Jun 04 10:16
fewathey will be excludedJun 04 10:16
fewaso the executives will winJun 04 10:17
fewaat the expense of UAW, its shareholders, and good american industryJun 04 10:18
fewahipped to china or mexicoJun 04 10:18
oiaohmIts one I tried to put up on http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/02/mono-an-infectious-disease/comment-page-1/#comment-64785  It appears to been eaten.  My connection being speed limited is not the best at moment schestowitzJun 04 10:18
schestowitzoiaohm: it was in moderationJun 04 10:19
schestowitzIt's up nowJun 04 10:19
schestowitzMaybe it didn't like two URLsJun 04 10:19
oiaohmI am only 5g over quota.  So ISP giving me trouble would be expected.Jun 04 10:19
schestowitzfewa: "who does Obama work for?.."Jun 04 10:19
schestowitzRMS is a Nader supporter, so I wonder if it's a reference to his remarksJun 04 10:20
schestowitzOBAMAA already shows he's there for MPAA and RIAAJun 04 10:20
fewahttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afYsmJyngAXQ&refer=homeJun 04 10:20
MinceRnot only for the mafiaa, afaictJun 04 10:20
fewaStiglitz Says Ties to Wall Street Doom Bank Rescue (Update1)Jun 04 10:20
schestowitzOh, Stiglitz is moving over here to ManchesterJun 04 10:21
schestowitzMinceR: to anyone who owns the countryJun 04 10:21
MinceRindeedJun 04 10:21
schestowitzIncluding the likes of Bill and Steve (and other other Steve... the one with cancer, not the one who calls Linux cancer)Jun 04 10:21
MinceRindeedJun 04 10:22
fewaregardless of presidential stuff, nobody can deny that nader has a better track record than practically anybody else in washingtonJun 04 10:23
fewaClear Air act, Freedom of Information ActJun 04 10:23
fewaseat belts, air bagsJun 04 10:23
oiaohmShould have said the rewrite of kdevelop 4 is 4 years old.Jun 04 10:23
oiaohmIts a masive project results are being great.Jun 04 10:24
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oiaohmReally we should take cancer as a good thing.   Since to be a cancer you have to be immortal and able to out live what ever hosts you.Jun 04 10:25
MinceRno more autoconf hell? :>Jun 04 10:25
oiaohmautomake is worse in kdevelop 4 than 3 still.Jun 04 10:26
oiaohmYes they managed to make that bit worse.Jun 04 10:26
oiaohmauto completes are way better in kdevelop 4.Jun 04 10:27
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_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 04 10:28
schestowitzoiaohm: I bet Ballmer can feel the lump of LinuxJun 04 10:30
schestowitzGrowing inside his market like a libre tumourJun 04 10:30
schestowitzMicrosoft: the radiotherapy of computingJun 04 10:30
oiaohmAnd just like trying to kill a cancer Linux keeps on poping back up in different locations appearing completely not linked.Jun 04 10:31
oiaohmIf the open source world can take it as a possitive we can remove the sting of being called cancer complete.Jun 04 10:32
MinceRit's probably better to drive ballmer out of businessJun 04 10:32
MinceRthen nobody will listen to him againJun 04 10:33
MinceRhe will keep mumbling "cancer" to himself and nobody will publish itJun 04 10:33
MinceRit would of course better to punish him for what he didJun 04 10:33
MinceRs/se/se be/Jun 04 10:33
fewaRevenge is not neededJun 04 10:35
oiaohmIts the good old wog defence.Jun 04 10:35
oiaohmThey insult you with it.  You take it and make fun of it.Jun 04 10:35
oiaohmThey are the ones who end up looking like the idiot.Jun 04 10:36
fewarevenge will take its own course without needing to be sought outJun 04 10:36
MinceRcriminals must be punished so that others will be deterredJun 04 10:36
MinceRalso, it must be made sure that he can't commit his crimes ever again.Jun 04 10:36
oiaohmDo you think he would get another job if he is credited for creating a great slogin for his competition at the time.Jun 04 10:38
schestowitzAfter running MS into debt?Jun 04 10:39
schestowitzNot many companies would want him.Jun 04 10:39
schestowitzMcCain wanted him for ChinaJun 04 10:39
schestowitzSuits him rightJun 04 10:39
schestowitzTwo oppressors... one nation, one chubby fellaJun 04 10:39
oiaohmPR libabity and bad money management who is going to what to touch him.Jun 04 10:40
oiaohmI think he will have toxic branded on him for life.Jun 04 10:40
MinceRhe will still have money to invest, unless it's taken from himJun 04 10:41
MinceR(which it absolutely should be)Jun 04 10:41
schestowitzGNUstep to go... on MIPS < http://multixden.blogspot.com/2009/06/gnustep-to-go-on-mips.html > Gnubook?Jun 04 10:41
amarsh04back soon, trying new GRUB...Jun 04 10:42
schestowitzThe Register says Microsoft won't link to the Wikipedia licence (one of those 'commie' GNU things)Jun 04 10:43
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schestowitzGRUBy GUBJun 04 10:43
schestowitzGrubby bootup sequenceJun 04 10:44
schestowitzInitializing syste...Jun 04 10:44
schestowitzWashing hands........ [OK]Jun 04 10:44
oiaohmI really wish someone would release a standard size laptop with arm or mips inside.Jun 04 10:45
oiaohmWith a standard size battery.Jun 04 10:45
oiaohmRun time could be kinda insane.Jun 04 10:46
_Hicham_oiaohm : they would soonJun 04 10:46
oiaohm48 hours runtime anyone.Jun 04 10:46
oiaohmAnd other instanty like that would be possiable.Jun 04 10:47
schestowitzoiaohm: there are hybridsJun 04 10:47
schestowitzARM/x86 laptopsJun 04 10:47
schestowitzExpensive thoughJun 04 10:47
schestowitzDell has someJun 04 10:47
oiaohmx86 bit makes the expensive.Jun 04 10:47
oiaohmThe arm bit costs bugger all.Jun 04 10:47
schestowitzWhy full size though?Jun 04 10:47
schestowitzI get lots done with a Palm and foling kbJun 04 10:47
oiaohmI am a touch typistJun 04 10:47
DaemonFCI compiled FAAC for x64 in Visual StudioJun 04 10:47
schestowitzNo real browsing thougghJun 04 10:48
DaemonFCit's a fair bit faster than the 32-bit versionJun 04 10:48
oiaohmEither I have to cary a netbook and a addon keyboard.Jun 04 10:48
schestowitzoiaohm: Palm keyboard would do touch typing fineJun 04 10:48
oiaohmPalm keyboard is nice.Jun 04 10:48
oiaohmJust I also want a decent sized screen.Jun 04 10:48
fewaoiaohm, ive been waiting a long time for a good arm laptopJun 04 10:48
schestowitzI would buy a second-hand device just to keep itJun 04 10:48
fewamips is too low power AFAIKJun 04 10:49
schestowitzIt's for real work, nice BabyShaker nonsenseJun 04 10:49
fewaas in speedJun 04 10:49
fewaisnt mips dying?Jun 04 10:49
oiaohm64 core mips are really nice.Jun 04 10:49
schestowitzNopeJun 04 10:49
schestowitzChina picks it upJun 04 10:49
fewaoiaohm, for what?Jun 04 10:49
oiaohmhttp://www.eofw.org/bench/  Runing blender fewaJun 04 10:50
oiaohmI wish they would get to 1ghz clock speeds.Jun 04 10:50
oiaohmMost likely they would kick the crap out of intel and amd processes.Jun 04 10:50
schestowitzNovell stooge Asay (former employee) ups speculations about Red Hat bought by oracle: http://www.thedeal.com/dealscape/2009/06/red_hat_on_oracles_head.phpJun 04 10:51
schestowitzThe press thinks, HEY! It's CNET. It must be somethingJun 04 10:51
fewanot going to happenJun 04 10:51
DaemonFCoiaohm: I'm writing a shell extension to give Windows Explorer the ability to display media information from AAC, FLAC, and Vorbis files :PJun 04 10:51
DaemonFCwho knows why? Winamp is a much better tag editorJun 04 10:52
fewahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TrPwOrf4sM The Onion: Blockbuster Offers Glimpse Of Movie Renting PastJun 04 10:53
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oiaohmhttp://www.totalrewind.com/portfolio/view.php?name=BlenderExtender  << maybe you can work with this guy DaemonFCJun 04 10:53
DaemonFChmmmmJun 04 10:53
DaemonFCthere are some shell extensions out there, but they only integrate with 32-bit ExplorerJun 04 10:54
DaemonFCso I'd have to set my shell as %systemroot%/SysWOW64/Explorer.exeJun 04 10:55
DaemonFCwow64 usually works well, but you run into occasional programs that don't have 64-bit shell extensionsJun 04 10:56
oiaohmThinking blender is 32 bit and 64 bit on windows and Linux he will have to get to the 64 bit version at some point.Jun 04 10:56
DaemonFC32-bit programs can extend the shell on 64-bit Windows, only the shell extensions need to be modified reallyJun 04 10:56
DaemonFCI really have no idea why people recommend Nero AAC, the damned thing says it was built in 2000Jun 04 10:57
DaemonFCit's 9 years oldJun 04 10:57
DaemonFCyuckJun 04 10:57
fewaDaemonFC, why dont you just play your musicJun 04 10:57
fewaand enjoy itJun 04 10:57
DaemonFCcause this portable I just ordered has me on a tear looking at different encodersJun 04 10:59
DaemonFCand tweaking thingsJun 04 10:59
DaemonFCyou knowJun 04 10:59
schestowitzThe Internet is 183 million big, and that is official  < http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4410.html >.Jun 04 10:59
fewaits alot bigger than thatJun 04 11:00
DaemonFCso that's what? about 110 million Internet Explorer users out there?Jun 04 11:00
*DaemonFC cringesJun 04 11:00
fewai mean ALOT bigger than thatJun 04 11:00
DaemonFCand about 164 million Windows usersJun 04 11:01
fewawait, thats just publically registered domain namesJun 04 11:01
DaemonFCohJun 04 11:01
fewaDaemonFC, its just domain namesJun 04 11:01
fewathere are WAY, WAY more users of the internet than thatJun 04 11:01
DaemonFCI've been up all nightJun 04 11:02
DaemonFCI have an excuse :PJun 04 11:02
fewathats about how many users of the internet there is in the USJun 04 11:02
fewathats alot of moneyJun 04 11:02
fewaregistering domain namesJun 04 11:02
fewamaybe $2 billion/yearJun 04 11:03
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schestowitzZemlin appears to be _Censoring_ trackbacks: http://www.linux-foundation.org/weblogs/jzemlin/2009/06/01/canola-project%E2%80%99s-gplv3-permissions-are-worth-a-look/Jun 04 11:03
schestowitzfewa: ICANN might get replacedJun 04 11:04
schestowitzEurope wants to be dissociated with that allJun 04 11:04
fewaby what?Jun 04 11:04
schestowitzRemember how Condy Rice rejected it?Jun 04 11:04
schestowitzThe neo-cons said something about controlling the InternetJun 04 11:05
schestowitzbecause "they "created itJun 04 11:05
fewai dont see whats broken about the current systemJun 04 11:05
fewathe europeans can make their own TLD if they want toJun 04 11:05
schestowitzThe Web came also from CERN, no? (first site)Jun 04 11:05
fewanoone is stopping themJun 04 11:05
schestowitzDid domains exist in their current form before the Web?Jun 04 11:05
oiaohmUsa controls the top domain server.Jun 04 11:05
schestowitzLike bloggs.com?Jun 04 11:05
schestowitzIf not, then it's not a US military thingJun 04 11:05
schestowitzBrad Templeton was among those voting on the structure of top-level domainsJun 04 11:06
fewathey should just ask for a TLD of their ownJun 04 11:06
fewathat they will regulateJun 04 11:06
fewaand to have ICANN be more independantJun 04 11:06
fewabut messing around with something that works generally mean more beurocracyJun 04 11:06
schestowitzMaybe they ask for permission now, politelyJun 04 11:07
oiaohmReally it could get a mess if all interconnets to the USA failed.Jun 04 11:07
schestowitzfewa: it doesn't workJun 04 11:07
schestowitzNot for everyoneJun 04 11:07
DaemonFCI can't wait to see what the internet will be like when this shit hits the fanJun 04 11:07
oiaohmIt really should have back up location spreed around the world.Jun 04 11:07
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 11:07
schestowitzThere is supprt for just latin charsJun 04 11:07
fewathey publish the root zoneJun 04 11:07
schestowitzThe Greek were not happy about it some years backJun 04 11:07
fewaso anyone can host itJun 04 11:07
schestowitzAnd what about China?Jun 04 11:07
DaemonFCthats what I was thinkingJun 04 11:08
fewaall the countries have their own domainsJun 04 11:08
fewathat they can do anything they want to withJun 04 11:08
oiaohmBut there is no system to update it in case of failure fewa.Jun 04 11:08
oiaohmWho will take over if the center goes down fewaJun 04 11:08
oiaohmThat is not decided.Jun 04 11:08
schestowitzIt almost wasJun 04 11:08
schestowitzDNS came under attackJun 04 11:08
oiaohmIt really should be.Jun 04 11:08
fewayou mean the GTLD?Jun 04 11:08
schestowitzDDoS from China in 2006/7Jun 04 11:08
fewathe federal domains are fineJun 04 11:08
fewathe GTLD are verisign and stuffJun 04 11:09
fewafederal domains are regulated by the country they are alloted toJun 04 11:09
DaemonFCwell, as it stands, we could cut off most of asia and africa and lost nothing but penis pill spam and nigerian scamsJun 04 11:09
DaemonFCseriously, what do these backwaters do for the internet that has earned them the right to partially govern it?Jun 04 11:09
schestowitzStop trollingJun 04 11:09
fewago to sleep, dillydally with codecsJun 04 11:10
DaemonFChehJun 04 11:10
fewaschestowitz, but the root certificate is published, anyone can host itJun 04 11:10
fewaand any ISP could easily set up their own server on that IP and only accept requests from their customersJun 04 11:11
oiaohmYes any ISP can host a DNS cache.Jun 04 11:11
fewaor even impersonate the root CA serverJun 04 11:12
oiaohmfewa  what I am talking about the system to add or alter a domain name.Jun 04 11:12
fewaone of themJun 04 11:12
DaemonFCI'd like to see what the EU's position on Microsoft, Intel, and ICANN would be if they were all based thereJun 04 11:12
DaemonFCI really wouldJun 04 11:12
fewaoiaohm, thats not the root system however, that problem is limited to the GTLD: .com, .net, .orgJun 04 11:12
DaemonFCsomething tells me they'd let them commit murder and not ask questionsJun 04 11:12
fewathe federal ones are all delegated to the countriesJun 04 11:12
fewaDaemonFC, stop trollingJun 04 11:13
DaemonFCnot trolling, the EU just wants to bitch about anything that is American and successfulJun 04 11:13
DaemonFCand steal their moneyJun 04 11:13
oiaohmAll country .au .... dns's are listed in the central.  if one of those need updating and you cannot update central you will lose a segment.Jun 04 11:13
DaemonFCyou'll notice that no actual sanctions ever come out of the EU that benefit consumersJun 04 11:14
oiaohmyes the system can run with central down.Jun 04 11:14
DaemonFCthey just hit Microsoft and Intel up for moneyJun 04 11:14
oiaohmAs long as nothing the centrel provides needs updating fewa.Jun 04 11:14
fewathats just a network neutrality problem, if the server ip address pointed to are alloted to the country at issueJun 04 11:14
fewanew zonesJun 04 11:15
DaemonFCI'd like to know exactly what they've done to stop Microsoft from forcing IE and Windows Media PlayerJun 04 11:15
DaemonFCnothingJun 04 11:15
oiaohmCentral lists the ip's of the valid dns provides  from the tree.Jun 04 11:15
DaemonFCthey always use it as their excuse to come take moneyJun 04 11:15
DaemonFCthen they don't do anythingJun 04 11:15
fewaand as long as those ips belong to the right people, then those people are responsible on routing them correctlyJun 04 11:15
fewabut yes, the root zone could be a political thingJun 04 11:15
oiaohmroot zone is a libablity.Jun 04 11:16
fewahow?Jun 04 11:16
DaemonFCif the EU was worried about Microsoft forcing IE and Media Player, the time to act was 11 years agoJun 04 11:16
fewaits pretty staticJun 04 11:16
oiaohmCurrently there is no back up plan.Jun 04 11:16
DaemonFCthey don't give a shit about that, it's an excuse to tax themJun 04 11:16
oiaohmIf USA provide of root zone goes everything loss means to update.Jun 04 11:16
oiaohmin the root zone.Jun 04 11:17
fewaanyone can keep with a old versionJun 04 11:17
fewaat their choiceJun 04 11:17
oiaohmPoint old version.Jun 04 11:17
oiaohmHow do you update it.Jun 04 11:17
fewapoliticJun 04 11:17
oiaohmThat is what is missing.Jun 04 11:17
fewasJun 04 11:17
fewai really dont see it as an issueJun 04 11:17
oiaohmThe system does have fall backs in it design.Jun 04 11:17
fewathe real issue is network neutralityJun 04 11:17
DaemonFCI'd just flip them the bird and go right alongJun 04 11:17
fewanot the root zoneJun 04 11:17
oiaohmBut there is no allocated fall back.Jun 04 11:18
DaemonFCone time I agree with the Bush administrationJun 04 11:18
oiaohmThe root zone can have a fall back it in dns design fewaJun 04 11:18
oiaohmUsa basically has choosen not to.Jun 04 11:18
fewaif it had fal back, it would have to have a differnt fall back for every areaJun 04 11:18
fewaas otherwise the fallback would have the exact same problems that the root zone might haveJun 04 11:19
fewathere is no DDoS risk on the root zoneJun 04 11:19
fewaas there is no resource to DDoSJun 04 11:19
fewathe ip addressees, and the root zone, is static enought to be hosted anywhere, its API is documented and replicatableJun 04 11:19
fewaso tis a non-issueJun 04 11:20
DaemonFCback in 2003, there was an attempted ddos attack on the root DNS servers, it got a lot of coverage, but it really meant nothingJun 04 11:20
fewaexcept for updatesJun 04 11:20
oiaohm2003 the root zone was taken off line.Jun 04 11:20
DaemonFCas the root servers have directly, very little to do with look up requests from youJun 04 11:20
fewaonly because ISPs didnt think about their own backup planJun 04 11:20
fewaof locally hosted, locally-accessable mirrorsJun 04 11:20
oiaohmThere was not major disruption.Jun 04 11:20
DaemonFCI was unaffectedJun 04 11:20
oiaohmMost of the core servers stuck to there IPsJun 04 11:21
DaemonFCthat's why your ISP should have a cacheJun 04 11:21
oiaohma few countries did drop off.Jun 04 11:21
schestowitzzoobab01: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090603224807259Jun 04 11:21
fewaif it has a backup, the backup has to be special multi-homed ips, that are only locally accessable from ones ISP/countryJun 04 11:21
fewabut thats already possible, and easy to do, so its a non-issueJun 04 11:22
oiaohmA fall back means if USA could not provide the server and more  X group would be allowed to pick I up so internet would go on as nothing happened.Jun 04 11:22
fewayou just dont get itJun 04 11:23
oiaohmCurrently we don't have another group with the power to pick it up and just keep the network running.  So what we had last time was about 12 countries wanting to take root.Jun 04 11:23
fewabecause the root zone is static, there is no problem in anyone impersonating the root zone's ip addresses and functionJun 04 11:23
schestowitzDaemonFC: a matter of autonomyJun 04 11:23
fewatherefore its immune from DDoSJun 04 11:23
schestowitzIf a EU country is in conflict with the US, then the US can digitally suspend itJun 04 11:23
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fewano it cantJun 04 11:24
oiaohmOther than valid signing of updates fewaJun 04 11:24
fewathats ludicrisJun 04 11:24
DaemonFCwe wouldn't do something like thatJun 04 11:24
DaemonFCwe're not the ChineseJun 04 11:24
schestowitzSo it's not surprising that control freaks like Rice refuse to give up controlJun 04 11:24
the_mad_hatterMorning.Jun 04 11:24
the_mad_hatterRoy, have you seen http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Main_Page#Blogs_and_Discussion_Groups_that_cover_Patent_IssuesJun 04 11:24
fewaanyperson on the network can impersonate anyone else, with that persons address, and do so completely undetected, as long as it knows as much as the other serverJun 04 11:24
fewawhich is true on the root zonesJun 04 11:25
fewaits simpleJun 04 11:25
fewageesus christJun 04 11:25
DaemonFCsche's not in charge of anything anymore you knowJun 04 11:25
DaemonFCthat would be Hillary ClintonJun 04 11:25
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 11:25
schestowitzthe_mad_hatter: I'll lookJun 04 11:25
fewathe root zone, staying as it is, is a complete non issueJun 04 11:25
the_mad_hatterand also this:Jun 04 11:25
the_mad_hatterhttp://en.swpat.org/wiki/Should_the_whole_patent_system_be_axedJun 04 11:25
DaemonFChmmmJun 04 11:26
fewahttp://piratpartiet.se/Jun 04 11:26
fewa2 daysJun 04 11:26
DaemonFCBing added nwsJun 04 11:26
DaemonFC*newsJun 04 11:26
schestowitzthe_mad_hatter: are we includedJun 04 11:26
oiaohmWould work if it was not all signed to prevent tampering to maintain trust between servers fewa.  Its I encrypt so I am.Jun 04 11:27
fewaoiaohm, anyone can replicate signed responsesJun 04 11:27
fewaand sine the whole zone is published its still a non-issueJun 04 11:27
schestowitz"A study a while back by Groklaw contributor Wayne aka "The Mad Hatter", which involved reading several hundred patent applications..."Jun 04 11:27
fewahowever the signed prevents changing itJun 04 11:27
oiaohmThat is the problem.Jun 04 11:27
the_mad_hatteryes, there are some links here.Jun 04 11:27
fewaso still as i said, keeping the network the same is easyJun 04 11:28
oiaohmIf change need to happen for some reason due to root zone being down currently you cannot simply.Jun 04 11:28
fewawith caching its always possible to keep the system working exactly the sameJun 04 11:28
oiaohmBecause there is not a secound group or more setup with keys.Jun 04 11:28
fewadoes mean the root zone should be published with an infinite expire lengthJun 04 11:28
oiaohmCurrently you would have to try to built the updating system on the fly.Jun 04 11:28
the_mad_hatterAim was to get connections back as well, so that people know what is going on.Jun 04 11:28
fewaotherwise you have set up a ticking time bomb of powerJun 04 11:29
the_mad_hatteranyway, I have to run, breaksfast is cooking.Jun 04 11:29
fewaall signature need to be infinite length, just have recommendations or suchJun 04 11:29
schestowitzhttp://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=3653Jun 04 11:29
fewalimited length is artificial scarcity for the power of the certificate signersJun 04 11:29
fewawithout any added securityJun 04 11:29
schestowitzNot sure how I feel about IBM bribing analysts to promote LinuxJun 04 11:29
schestowitzIt's not harmful, but it's fire vs fireJun 04 11:29
schestowitzThey also feed the shills from IDCJun 04 11:30
schestowitzSame immoral industryJun 04 11:30
schestowitzFor IBM to promote a free platform withJun 04 11:30
fewadoe anyone know more about how the DNSSEC signatures work ith respect to expirations?Jun 04 11:30
DaemonFCThe Republicans sink to another lowJun 04 11:30
schestowitzthe_mad_hatter: latersJun 04 11:30
oiaohmThey keys get updated as well fewa.   So any root zone key is only valid for 12 months before its replaced fewa and the new key .Jun 04 11:30
DaemonFCcriticizing the president for taking his wife out to dinnerJun 04 11:31
DaemonFC:PJun 04 11:31
fewathats uglyJun 04 11:31
fewagives too much power to the signorsJun 04 11:31
oiaohmNow can you see why EU is upset.Jun 04 11:31
fewathings should never stop working due to expired signaturesJun 04 11:31
fewathey should just have less trustJun 04 11:32
oiaohmYou are limited on that.Jun 04 11:32
oiaohmYou don't want fake dns enteryes entering the system.Jun 04 11:32
fewathey arnt fakeJun 04 11:32
fewathey are signedJun 04 11:32
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oiaohmBut there should be more than 1 key holder.Jun 04 11:32
fewawe havnt had signed DNS at all and everything worksJun 04 11:33
fewawhy would it be any differnt in the futureJun 04 11:33
fewaso letting everything work with expired, but valid signatures, is importantJun 04 11:33
oiaohmSupprising a lot of DNS servers at ISP use signatures to other DNS servers to validate transfers.Jun 04 11:33
fewaand the signatures are only moderately useful anyways because they rely on faithful networking and routingJun 04 11:34
DaemonFCI noticed none of the Republicans have a problem with a 7 foot tall statue of Ronald Reagan going up at taxpayer expenseJun 04 11:34
schestowitzFedora 11 is 6 days away. http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedoraJun 04 11:34
oiaohmTo prevent DNS spoofing.Jun 04 11:34
DaemonFCbut god forbif the president and his wife have dinnerJun 04 11:34
DaemonFC*forbidJun 04 11:34
oiaohmThat came in around 1996 by the way fewaJun 04 11:34
fewawith DNSSEC dns is becoming alot more importantJun 04 11:34
schestowitzRonald Reagan: worse than Bush?Jun 04 11:34
DaemonFCno, probably notJun 04 11:35
fewaperhaps computers should come with more root certificatesJun 04 11:35
schestowitzGood for himJun 04 11:35
oiaohmWith the DNSSEC the top of the tree becomes important fewa.Jun 04 11:35
schestowitzBush did him a favourJun 04 11:35
DaemonFCI'd have to strain to think of the last president we had worse than BushJun 04 11:35
schestowitzPeople will cite Bush as the rotten apple example from now onJun 04 11:35
DaemonFCnot in my lifetimeJun 04 11:35
fewaand needs a cercle of trustJun 04 11:35
oiaohmBasically we need more than 1 group in charge of center in a fall over setup.Jun 04 11:36
fewapeople need easy ways to change their trustJun 04 11:36
oiaohmIe usa fails EU can pick it up and so on.Jun 04 11:36
schestowitzDaemonFC: or God forbid Obama flies to his dying mother (grandma?)Jun 04 11:36
fewaand have multiple trustsJun 04 11:36
oiaohmWe need to know in advance where the next control location will be.Jun 04 11:36
DaemonFCHerbert Hoover is widely compared to BushJun 04 11:36
oiaohmSo changing is quick and painless.Jun 04 11:36
DaemonFCfor being dismissive and indecisive going into the depressionJun 04 11:36
schestowitzYesJun 04 11:37
fewathey really shouldnt expireJun 04 11:37
DaemonFCgrandmotherJun 04 11:37
schestowitzBut different circumstancesJun 04 11:37
schestowitzHoover came into a messJun 04 11:37
oiaohmUsers would never know anything had changed if it was setup that way.Jun 04 11:37
fewai mean they can expire, but expired records should never cause things to not be routedJun 04 11:37
schestowitzBush did not enter into a messJun 04 11:37
schestowitzExcept the HUGE bubbleJun 04 11:37
fewaor you create a politicians best dream: a ticking timebomb of fearJun 04 11:37
DaemonFCyeah, if his administration had done something about it in 2001/2002Jun 04 11:37
fewaon a rolling basisJun 04 11:37
DaemonFCit would never have gotten this badJun 04 11:37
schestowitzhttp://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download Enjoy it while it stays on top. Ubuntu is no underdog anymore. Other distro will dethrone itJun 04 11:38
oiaohmEU has valid reason to be unhappy with the current setup fewaJun 04 11:38
DaemonFCWhat had happened to cause this was the minority loan program the Democrats set upJun 04 11:38
DaemonFCto give unqualified minorities housing loansJun 04 11:38
fewaoiaohm, i was still thinking-  pre-DNSSECJun 04 11:38
oiaohmpre-DNSSEC there was not a problem.Jun 04 11:39
fewawhat do the RFC's say about expired records?Jun 04 11:39
oiaohmCrypt keys have to expire.Jun 04 11:39
fewabut can hosts still use them?Jun 04 11:39
fewaand ttreat them as unexpired at their own peril?Jun 04 11:39
oiaohmBecause once they pass a particular age they could be cracked.Jun 04 11:39
fewaoiaohm, thats just jibberish, the user can easily determine that themselvesJun 04 11:40
fewabased on the algorythm, importance, etcJun 04 11:40
oiaohmThink about the damage you could do if you could spoof at top of the dns tree fewa.Jun 04 11:40
fewai mean the reciever of the recordJun 04 11:40
fewaoiaohm, none, because you dont are not routed into the DNS checks of the ISPsJun 04 11:40
fewaand because the root cert is publishedJun 04 11:41
fewadistrobuted checks will be much more usefull in fighing such threatsJun 04 11:41
fewain a way that does not give too much control to one partyJun 04 11:42
oiaohmWhat if you could spoof the root recoders to tell all dns servers to look to yours instead of anyone elses.Jun 04 11:42
fewaoiaohm, if the records are older the reciever can be smart about its ageJun 04 11:42
fewaand a more recent record can take precendence if it is allowed toJun 04 11:43
fewabut strict expirations with no explicit allowance of tolerance is too much control on the signorsJun 04 11:43
oiaohmPerson who is in charge of the cent can create more recent records.Jun 04 11:44
oiaohmThe DNS server setup is a tree not a web.Jun 04 11:45
oiaohmWeb is more resistant to these kinds of abuse.Jun 04 11:45
fewaexactlyJun 04 11:45
fewaits needs more of a web modelJun 04 11:45
oiaohmWeb requires more than I signor.Jun 04 11:45
oiaohm1 signorJun 04 11:45
oiaohmto prevent spoofing.Jun 04 11:46
fewaand rules on clients set by RFCs need to give recievers the discretionJun 04 11:46
oiaohmBasically the central model of the DNS servers in use is trouble.Jun 04 11:46
fewawhich end user clients can read on their merits of signaturesJun 04 11:46
fewaa 1 year expiration is horribleJun 04 11:47
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oiaohmIts fairly much standard crypt key expire.Jun 04 11:47
ziggyfishhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2942&tag=nl.e539Jun 04 11:47
fewathats bs if implamented like thatJun 04 11:47
ziggyfishWindows 7: The incentives are comingJun 04 11:47
oiaohmPast that date new updates will not be accepted without the new key basically.Jun 04 11:47
ziggyfishMeanwhile, on the business side of the house, there was a recent report on the UX Evangelist enthusiast blog that Microsoft has been offering volume licensees a chance to lock in Windows 7 Enterprise for $77 per copy as one of their Software Assurance benefits.Jun 04 11:47
fewagives them a date each year where they can increase their budgetJun 04 11:48
oiaohmEven web based would still need a key turn over system fewaJun 04 11:48
fewabut many of themJun 04 11:48
schestowitzMinceR: : great news. Hungary makes ODF a national standard Hungary makes ODF a national standardsJun 04 11:48
oiaohmThe yearly turn over of key is not the problem fewaJun 04 11:49
schestowitzhttp://twitter.com/rcweir/statuses/2015996884Jun 04 11:49
oiaohmIts the lack of keys fewaJun 04 11:49
fewaboth are problemsJun 04 11:49
oiaohmkey turn over is fairly well handled.Jun 04 11:49
fewayou just need an algorhthmJun 04 11:49
oiaohmNew key turns up about 1 month before the current key expires.Jun 04 11:49
fewabased on relative trust of many keys, the age of recordsJun 04 11:49
MinceRschestowitz: niceJun 04 11:49
MinceRi hope it will affect at least state institutions, including educational onesJun 04 11:50
fewavoting algorythmJun 04 11:50
oiaohmProblem is what do you do if no key turns up fewaJun 04 11:50
fewawhat do you mean?Jun 04 11:50
fewaif someone loses the key?Jun 04 11:51
oiaohmThese are public and private keys.Jun 04 11:51
fewapage rank for key signingJun 04 11:51
oiaohmIf you don't get a public key you cannot check upates.Jun 04 11:51
fewano, if you dont _trust_ a public keyJun 04 11:51
oiaohmYou still need to confirm the records you have got somehow.Jun 04 11:52
fewapage rank for key signing seems the right wayJun 04 11:52
fewafirst public keys are distrobuted with the computer as alwaysJun 04 11:52
fewaand people can add their ownJun 04 11:52
oiaohmThis would be a more web based design.Jun 04 11:53
fewapage rank seem s to me a great way to do itJun 04 11:53
fewaall keys are trees, and have relative scoresJun 04 11:53
oiaohmAll I know for sure is something has to give.Jun 04 11:53
oiaohmway dns is setup currently is just wrong.  To open to a major all out screw upJun 04 11:54
fewayour computer will have a voting algorhthm to compare any two conflicting recordsJun 04 11:54
DaemonFCuggghJun 04 11:54
DaemonFCBillboard.com makes you download Silverlight to listen to musicJun 04 11:54
fewabut it will still keep a top down approachJun 04 11:56
fewatmany keys is really just for disaggreementsJun 04 11:56
schestowitzOver a dozen countries have already elected ODF as a "national standard" (sometimes PDF too, for Web sites)Jun 04 11:56
fewasimilar to how political/government systems workJun 04 11:56
oiaohmYour system I would trust more than current.Jun 04 11:58
oiaohmAlmost anything that works would be safer than current fewaJun 04 11:58
oiaohmThinking current system does not ever have a offical fall back out side the USA.Jun 04 11:58
fewawe need to implament the infrastructure for a web based dnsJun 04 11:58
fewaand then it would have the policical resilience to stay a healthy top down, with backupJun 04 11:59
oiaohmLot of pre DNSSEC people like you fail to see the problem.Jun 04 12:00
oiaohmWe need to get them aware of it too.Jun 04 12:00
fewayeah i was fighting you,, but really just had to realize the effects of DNSSECJun 04 12:00
fewai was thinking pre-DNSSECJun 04 12:00
fewawhich is basically free marketJun 04 12:00
fewa* narchyJun 04 12:00
oiaohmIts why a lot of people still think it fine.Jun 04 12:00
oiaohmLot of text books still talk about the pre DNSSEC days.Jun 04 12:01
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fewanow we need to write the protocolsJun 04 12:01
oiaohmI still remember breaking down laughing in 2007 with a new printed network design book.  It did not have a single bit on DNSSECJun 04 12:01
fewaand have some recommend voting algorythms (remember that anyone can decide however they want, and signatures present all the evidence they need to make an informed choice)Jun 04 12:01
oiaohmFor me at min a fall back system.Jun 04 12:02
oiaohmPlaned out in advance.Jun 04 12:02
oiaohmIt could be activated in the current framework without having to add a new system.Jun 04 12:02
fewaa web based model will use alot more bandwidthJun 04 12:02
fewabut will have alot more securityJun 04 12:03
oiaohmFall back has lower bandwidth usage.Jun 04 12:03
fewabut remember the web will be optionalJun 04 12:03
fewaits only to add structure and securityJun 04 12:03
fewaif you dont trust what you are being toldJun 04 12:03
oiaohmMost likely a combination of both.Jun 04 12:03
oiaohmIe fall back to start off.Jun 04 12:03
oiaohmAnd development and testing of web based.Jun 04 12:04
fewabig thing is there needs to be an ability in DNSSEC for multiple signaturesJun 04 12:04
oiaohmSo when it starts being used it works find and is as light as able.Jun 04 12:04
oiaohmDNSSEC can operate with multiple signatures.Jun 04 12:04
fewahell you could include dns responses in urls :PJun 04 12:04
fewathat would be interestingJun 04 12:04
oiaohmThat is why fall back can operate.Jun 04 12:05
fewanot really urls, but in reference to resourcesJun 04 12:05
fewabasically like telling someoneJun 04 12:05
fewayeah Joe Schomo said whateverJun 04 12:05
fewai last saw him, the last number i called him at was XXXJun 04 12:05
fewainstead of forcing everybody to go to a directoryJun 04 12:06
fewawhich in society would seem quite funnyJun 04 12:06
fewabut thats exactly how the internet worksJun 04 12:06
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oiaohmOnly thing new yours would require is a rating system that stayed trustable and was proven so fewa.Jun 04 12:08
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oiaohmThe proving so is the hard bit fewa.Jun 04 12:09
fewait might have to have karmaJun 04 12:09
fewaand the rating is still based on root certificatesJun 04 12:10
fewaits just that the root certificates all have differnt trustsJun 04 12:10
oiaohmMine is just pure old tech everyones not bothering using.Jun 04 12:10
fewabut yeah simple first is betterJun 04 12:10
fewaproblem is also that this is a very social problemJun 04 12:11
fewaand users of the internet are generally still too awed by "magic" to understand these social problemsJun 04 12:11
mtnd3wSteven Ballmer threatens Obama saying he will move employees offshore if Congress enacts Obama’s plans to impose higher taxes on U.S. companies’ foreign profits. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amBiYGyHOkZ8Jun 04 12:11
fewalet him goJun 04 12:12
fewait wouldnt change anythingJun 04 12:12
mtnd3wsomeone needs to tell Obama to push GNU/Linux it will save on taxes in all areas.Jun 04 12:13
fewayeahJun 04 12:13
fewalike the military Being microsoft's best friends--moving to office 2007 and vistaJun 04 12:14
fewaon tax payer moneyJun 04 12:14
mtnd3wseriously, what is that?Jun 04 12:15
mtnd3wthe most insecure OS?Jun 04 12:15
mtnd3wi guess they need to fabricate more warJun 04 12:15
fewaexactlyJun 04 12:15
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fewaany i bet they dont even get a fair deal, as they dont threat linuxJun 04 12:16
schestowitzmtnd3w: “It makes U.S. jobs more expensive,” Ballmer said in an interview.Jun 04 12:22
schestowitzIt's called wageJun 04 12:22
schestowitzYes, wage is "expensiveJun 04 12:22
schestowitzSomeone should explain this to young FrankensteveJun 04 12:22
schestowitzNo waonder waves have been stagnant in the states for decadesJun 04 12:22
MinceRthen the natural m$ reaction would be to eliminate this "wage" thingJun 04 12:22
schestowitzSo that companies will keep their marginsJun 04 12:22
schestowitzThey offer loans to those very same employeesJun 04 12:22
fewaMicrosoft is evading so much taxes it would be better to just push them outJun 04 12:22
schestowitzIe.e. steal their money, then chanrge them interest on itJun 04 12:22
schestowitzmtnd3w: they blackmail OBAMAA et alJun 04 12:23
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*schestowitz looks for quote where Ballmer calls "waves" a "cancer"Jun 04 12:27
schestowitz*wagesJun 04 12:27
mtnd3wschestowitz: good point, thats the Microsoft philosophyJun 04 12:28
oiaohmThe more you know about MS the more you want to kill them.Jun 04 12:29
oiaohmReally it would be funny if the pres had just put Ballmer in jail for threating national secuirty.Jun 04 12:30
schestowitz“It makes U.S. jobs more expensive” -- Steve Ballmer, 2009Jun 04 12:31
schestowitzAnother way to put it:Jun 04 12:31
schestowitz"It raises wages for American people"Jun 04 12:31
schestowitzOr:Jun 04 12:31
schestowitz"it helps the US economy recover by helping families"Jun 04 12:32
fewatwitching that spin machineJun 04 12:32
schestowitzHungary Makes ODF a National Standard <  http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/hungary-odf-national-standard/ >Jun 04 12:47
schestowitzWealth --> ExpensiveJun 04 12:47
schestowitzWar --> peaceJun 04 12:47
schestowitzChoice --> fragmentationJun 04 12:48
MinceRWar is PeaceJun 04 12:48
DaemonFCschestowitz: Did you see the vid I posted yesterday?Jun 04 12:48
MinceRFreedom is SlaveryJun 04 12:48
schestowitzMinceR: peace of mind to someJun 04 12:48
MinceRIgnorance is StrengthJun 04 12:48
DaemonFCThe one about the super wealthy old people that were abusing the Medicare systemJun 04 12:48
schestowitzLike BlackwaterJun 04 12:48
schestowitzThe checkout goes ka-shingJun 04 12:48
schestowitzPeace of mind to blackwater investors when there is warJun 04 12:48
schestowitzDaemonFC: which one?Jun 04 12:48
DaemonFCthey were living in "retirement communities" in $500,000 housesJun 04 12:49
DaemonFCand going to the doctor and getting medsJun 04 12:49
DaemonFCon my tax dollarsJun 04 12:49
schestowitzDaemonFC: I watched the beginningJun 04 12:49
schestowitzDaemonFC: post it again.Jun 04 12:49
DaemonFCit's pretty sickJun 04 12:49
schestowitzI'll make an ogg and include itJun 04 12:49
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dEA-S6QtKAJun 04 12:50
DaemonFCthese aren't poor old people that are eating cat food to pay rentJun 04 12:50
schestowitzBallmer Says Tax Would Move Microsoft Jobs Offshore http://americandaily.com/index.php/article/1488Jun 04 12:52
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schestowitzGates stumps for charity while Ballmer threatens Obama http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2009/06/microsoft-corp-founder-bill-gates-today-renewed-his-appeal-to-the-worlds-billionaires-to-give-up-their-fortunes-to-charit.htmlJun 04 12:52
DaemonFCschestowitz: I wish someone in our government would grow some balls and fight the globalizations and offshoringJun 04 12:57
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DaemonFCwe ought to charge a 200% tariff on anything we can make hereJun 04 12:57
DaemonFCperiodJun 04 12:57
DaemonFCend of storyJun 04 12:57
MinceRyay for half-baked ideas :>Jun 04 12:58
MinceRthough that would be an overstatementJun 04 12:59
fewaMinceR, what are you referring to?Jun 04 12:59
MinceRwhat DaemonFC saidJun 04 12:59
fewaahh i had him ignoredJun 04 12:59
DaemonFCyeah, all the greedy foreigners who want to snipe our jobs would hate itJun 04 12:59
DaemonFCyou're rightJun 04 12:59
MinceRfewa: you're a happy person thenJun 04 13:00
fewai ignore trollersJun 04 13:00
MinceRDaemonFC: it isn't only about jobs, it's also about commerceJun 04 13:00
DaemonFCMinceR: Go frolic naked in the forest through hippy land and be happy with himJun 04 13:00
DaemonFCyes?Jun 04 13:00
MinceRDaemonFC: go fuck yourselfJun 04 13:01
*schestowitz makes off from fraud visdJun 04 13:01
schestowitz*vidJun 04 13:01
schestowitz*oggJun 04 13:01
MinceRit would be nice to have a script that's like ignore except it doesn't remove ignored lines, only shades them and keeps them from triggering activity notificationsJun 04 13:01
MinceRDaemonFC: oh, and after introducing that tariff, try to sell your shit in countries whose economy you've just penalized and be _very_ surprised when they do the same toy ouJun 04 13:02
MinceRidiotJun 04 13:02
DaemonFCwho caresJun 04 13:02
DaemonFCthey don't buy anything from usJun 04 13:03
DaemonFCthat's the pointJun 04 13:03
MinceRalso, try to get goods you can manufacture but can't manufacture in high enough amountsJun 04 13:03
DaemonFCMinceR: Take China for example, the only thing they buy from us are raw materials, which they immediately make something out of and sell right back to usJun 04 13:04
DaemonFCgood riddanceJun 04 13:04
MinceRthen try buying non-chinese versions of the same stuffJun 04 13:05
DaemonFCgood luckJun 04 13:05
MinceRexactlyJun 04 13:05
DaemonFCif you don't want a stereo, television, toaster, refigerator, bedsheets, curtains, microwave, clothing, or the materials that build a house in the first placeJun 04 13:06
DaemonFCyou may be able to avoid itJun 04 13:06
MinceRyour idea would mean a 200% markup on those thingsJun 04 13:06
DaemonFCplus a bunch of other stuff I don't have time to listJun 04 13:07
DaemonFCno it wouldn'tJun 04 13:07
DaemonFCwe could make all of thatJun 04 13:07
MinceRsure you couldJun 04 13:07
MinceRjust not at the same priceJun 04 13:07
DaemonFCso?Jun 04 13:07
MinceRand you currently don't have the capacity to do itJun 04 13:07
MinceRand demand being far above supply means high pricesJun 04 13:07
DaemonFCwhich is better, a 20, 30, or 40% unemployment rateJun 04 13:07
DaemonFCor the prices of goods going up perhaps 10-20%?Jun 04 13:08
MinceRperhaps 10-20%?Jun 04 13:08
DaemonFCyeahJun 04 13:08
MinceRyou're seeing the world in pinkJun 04 13:08
DaemonFCthe prices of goods doesn't go down muchJun 04 13:08
DaemonFCwhen you have them importedJun 04 13:08
DaemonFCjust means that the company pockets what the American worker would have madeJun 04 13:08
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DaemonFCall outsourcing leads to is exploitation of Chinese workers and Americans without jobsJun 04 13:09
DaemonFCto benefit the rich big wigs at companies like WalmartJun 04 13:09
schestowitzIt's a good videoJun 04 13:09
schestowitzIt might annoy some older readers, thoughJun 04 13:09
schestowitzPensions are already fried anywayJun 04 13:10
schestowitzk401Jun 04 13:10
schestowitz401kJun 04 13:10
schestowitzPonzo401Jun 04 13:10
schestowitzPaper moneyJun 04 13:10
DaemonFCschestowitz: I pulled all of mine when I guessed what was about to happenJun 04 13:10
DaemonFCI about took a bathJun 04 13:10
schestowitzCoupons from your mummy might be more truthworthyJun 04 13:10
DaemonFCthe AARP is like an RIAA representing old peopleJun 04 13:12
DaemonFCif anyone threatens to cut the welfare gravy train for old people that are already rich, they get together and vote them out of officeJun 04 13:12
MinceRi wonder why they outsource then... perhaps because the chinese are willing to work for less? :>Jun 04 13:13
DaemonFCbasically yes, but the price of goods here does not go downJun 04 13:14
DaemonFCjust means that Walmart pockets the differenceJun 04 13:14
DaemonFCso normal Americans don't benefit from this, and a lot of us lose our job because of itJun 04 13:14
DaemonFCso more money can go to management typesJun 04 13:14
DaemonFCSteve Ballmer isn't really all that bad compared to WalmartJun 04 13:15
MinceRi wouldn't expect anything else from the guy who has a poster of ballmer in his bedroomJun 04 13:15
DaemonFChe has the power to put maybe 20,000 Americans out of work compared to the 5-6 million Walmart already hasJun 04 13:15
MinceR"equally evil" bullshitJun 04 13:15
DaemonFCcompared to Walmart, Ballmer is a choir boyJun 04 13:16
DaemonFCof course Microsoft is shitting themselves over Linux, but Linux is actually, overall a good thing for America because it means that there's less money going to Microsoft and more money for businesses to invest in themselves and expandJun 04 13:17
DaemonFCwhich means hiring more people that Microsoft ends up shedding off their payrollJun 04 13:17
DaemonFCI'd imagine that there would be 2-3 jobs created for every 1 lost if Linux pushed Windows out of the pictureJun 04 13:18
DaemonFCschestowitz: The video rental machine blue screened on my earlierJun 04 13:19
DaemonFCas it was going down I saw that it was running Windows XP EmbeddedJun 04 13:19
DaemonFC*meJun 04 13:19
DaemonFCkind of wish I had had my camera on meJun 04 13:20
schestowitzDaemonFC: ON you?Jun 04 13:21
schestowitzOr when you came to ot/Jun 04 13:22
schestowitzSome parking meters tooJun 04 13:22
schestowitzAnd ATMsJun 04 13:22
DaemonFCI clicked to put a DVD in my "cart" and blue screenJun 04 13:22
schestowitzWellJun 04 13:22
DaemonFCthen it flickered and I saw the XP log on promptJun 04 13:22
schestowitzMaybe there were blue movies in thereJun 04 13:22
DaemonFCthen it told me the machine was out of serviceJun 04 13:22
schestowitzSo it Blued on youJun 04 13:22
schestowitzAhhh...Jun 04 13:23
schestowitzyes, I knowJun 04 13:23
schestowitzError 0x000fef12: " machine was out of service"Jun 04 13:23
schestowitzWith blue bgJun 04 13:23
DaemonFCnoJun 04 13:23
DaemonFCit was some custom screen for that kioskJun 04 13:23
DaemonFCredJun 04 13:23
DaemonFCwith a power icon in the backJun 04 13:24
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schestowitzDo you also have a power icon in the back?Jun 04 13:29
schestowitzI'd use it to disable you when you aggravateJun 04 13:29
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oiaohmDaemonFC:  tax law over there can you write off software as a asset DaemonFC.Jun 04 13:40
oiaohmif you can here it really does not make any difference for the companies either way.   But it does for the tax man.Jun 04 13:40
DaemonFCYes I know you canJun 04 13:44
DaemonFCI claimed $14 for Vista and $14 for Office 2007Jun 04 13:44
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oiaohmDeprecate 100 percent?Jun 04 13:45
DaemonFCstudent licensesJun 04 13:45
oiaohmMost countries you cannot claim 100 percent on support contracts.Jun 04 13:45
oiaohmSo Linux means more tax income.Jun 04 13:45
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oiaohmMajor reason for businesses going Linux is saving from less down time.Jun 04 13:46
DaemonFCnot necessarilyJun 04 13:46
schestowitzIs Steve Ballmer Blackmailing Obama? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/ballmer-blackmails-obama/ >Jun 04 13:46
DaemonFCif I bought a Linux box set for school I could declare itJun 04 13:46
oiaohmHere we cannot claim the support contract bit.Jun 04 13:47
oiaohmSince MS OEM software comes with no support contract you can claim 100 percent of it.Jun 04 13:48
oiaohmYes suxs.Jun 04 13:48
oiaohmAlso on adverage Linux box sets are cheeper than windows ones.Jun 04 13:48
DaemonFCoiaohm: Want to know something bizarre?Jun 04 13:48
DaemonFCWhen I encode to AAC with Long Term Predictor enabled, the only thing I have that can decode it properly is Windows Media Player with ffdshowJun 04 13:49
DaemonFCnot even VLC quite knows what to make of itJun 04 13:49
DaemonFCit plays but the slider is brokenJun 04 13:49
DaemonFCif I only use backwards linear prediction, none of my players have a problemJun 04 13:51
oiaohmWhat version vlc.Jun 04 13:54
oiaohmBecause that is a straight glitch.Jun 04 13:55
DaemonFC0.9.9Jun 04 13:55
DaemonFCerrr 0.99 or you knowJun 04 13:55
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DaemonFCthe current release versionJun 04 13:55
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oiaohmBug report it of course DaemonFC because that should not be happening.Jun 04 14:00
oiaohmLong Term Predictor is a bandwidth leveler.Jun 04 14:01
DaemonFCI've noticed it seeks normally if I have Long Term Prediction on but don't use temporal noise shapingJun 04 14:01
DaemonFCI just tried it that wayJun 04 14:01
DaemonFCbut that's still a bugJun 04 14:02
DaemonFCWinamp can't seem to play this file at allJun 04 14:02
DaemonFC:PJun 04 14:02
DaemonFCit looks like they both only fully support Low Complexity AACJun 04 14:02
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schestowitzOpenSUSE person: http://jamesthevicar.com/blog/?post=20090604_govote "Vote Liberal Democrat today. "Jun 04 14:13
schestowitzDaemonFC: US raygun jumbo jet now firing live blasts in flight < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/abl_first_flight_blasts/ >Jun 04 14:18
schestowitzarmament of civilian planesJun 04 14:18
DaemonFCthat's not a civilian planeJun 04 14:19
schestowitzWith the coming bankruptcy of many more airline[r]s maybe they'll just turn those Boeings to massive B52sJun 04 14:19
DaemonFCthe laser is so heavy that it takes a 747 to carry itJun 04 14:19
schestowitzYou know, "for national security"Jun 04 14:19
DaemonFCschestowitz: It can fire the laser at enemy fighters while it is still out of their rangeJun 04 14:20
schestowitzWhat sickens me is gloficiation of weaponsJun 04 14:20
schestowitzIt seems to be big in the likes of FoxJun 04 14:20
DaemonFCit is overkillJun 04 14:20
schestowitzThey see round-shaped designs of death machinesJun 04 14:20
DaemonFCour F-35 is much better than even its closest rivalJun 04 14:21
schestowitzAnd they think of power and pride rather than a kid blown to pieces for him mother to pickJun 04 14:21
oiaohmRetro fit them into Australian AWACS wedgetails we could use a few more.Jun 04 14:21
DaemonFCwhy do we need 747's with lasers?Jun 04 14:21
DaemonFC:PJun 04 14:21
schestowitzThere's a disconnect between what they show people and what happensJun 04 14:21
schestowitzDaemonFC: ChinaJun 04 14:22
schestowitzFear of military inferiorityJun 04 14:22
DaemonFCthe stealth, targeting system, and armament on the F-35 is good enough that I feel sorry for any Mig pilots who decide they're not our friendsJun 04 14:22
DaemonFCno, it can easily shoot down a Mig before they even see it on their radarJun 04 14:22
DaemonFCmuch less are in their weapons rangeJun 04 14:22
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YAL-1  << I guess schestowitz is talking about these.Jun 04 14:23
oiaohmAnti missile.Jun 04 14:23
DaemonFCI think the idea of the laser is that the enemy fighters will start blowing up before they're even aware that they are under attackJun 04 14:23
DaemonFCelement of surpriseJun 04 14:23
DaemonFCeverything is fine one second then the next second your squadron leader blows upJun 04 14:24
oiaohmSpeed of targeting could be too slow for fighters changing path.Jun 04 14:24
DaemonFCand while you're trying to figure out what's going on, another of your wingmen blows upJun 04 14:24
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 14:24
DaemonFCby that time the surviving planes are either retreating or being engaged by F-35sJun 04 14:25
schestowitzDNA Database Breached in New Zealand < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/06/dna-database-breached-in-new-zealand.html >Jun 04 14:26
DaemonFCit can shoot down ICBMs is its main purposeJun 04 14:27
DaemonFCbut surpise attack on enemy fighters is also possibleJun 04 14:27
oiaohmCombin that with an australian awacs and you do have a nasty weapon..Jun 04 14:27
DaemonFCNorth Korea is about done forJun 04 14:28
DaemonFCat least in its current stateJun 04 14:28
DaemonFCthey know it, that's why they're becoming more belligerantJun 04 14:28
DaemonFCthe French revolted when they were far better off than the North KoreansJun 04 14:29
DaemonFCNorth Korea is about to have sanctions imposed on it even by their alliesJun 04 14:30
schestowitz“The Failure of Science”: New paper makes a damning case against genetically modified food crops http://www.ethicurean.com/2009/06/03/lotter-gmopaper/Jun 04 14:32
DaemonFCfucking hippiesJun 04 14:32
DaemonFCthey need to have a hippie/Christian alliance against all of scienceJun 04 14:32
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schestowitzPhoto censorship vs. digital photography http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/dwallach/photo-censorship-vs-digital-photographyJun 04 14:33
DaemonFCoiaohm: I seem to have figured out roughly what I'm doing with AACJun 04 14:38
DaemonFCthe documentation for encoding with it is bad to non-existentJun 04 14:38
schestowitzbanking system: It’s Finished < http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n10/lanc01_.html >Jun 04 14:39
DaemonFCbut it seems like quality 250% is a noninal bitrate of around 192kJun 04 14:39
DaemonFCjust from watching the packet info from playing it back in VLCJun 04 14:39
oiaohmLot of things are not well documented in the media world.Jun 04 14:40
DaemonFCI'm trying to play around with it to find transparencyJun 04 14:40
DaemonFCwhich is not easy to doJun 04 14:41
DaemonFCI'm gravitating toward VBR quality of 250%Jun 04 14:41
DaemonFCyou keep thinking you've found it then you come across a problem sampleJun 04 14:41
DaemonFCa difference of just 1 MB aq file could mean the difference of 70 albums on an 8 gig  portable deviceJun 04 14:43
DaemonFCso it's worth nitpickingJun 04 14:43
schestowitzFrench Internet activists launch VPN to foil Three Strikes < http://www.p2p-blog.com/item-1066.html >Jun 04 14:44
DaemonFCI never go lossy unless I have the sourceJun 04 14:45
DaemonFCI don't feel like getting caught with my pants down when new formats happen :)Jun 04 14:45
schestowitzRepost: Interview with a 1989 Demonstrator < http://www.pekingduck.org/2009/06/repost-interview-with-a-1989-demonstrator/ > Not run over by tanks..Jun 04 14:46
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schestowitzYuck. Google has a Europe lobbying blog http://googlepolicyeurope.blogspot.com/2009/06/europe-needs-fifth-freedom.html Lobbying should be BANNED, not publicised.Jun 04 14:52
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schestowitzTemple timbers trace collapse of Mayan culture  < http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227104.400-temple-timbers-trace-collapse-of-mayan-culture.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news >Jun 04 14:54
fewageeze WTFJun 04 14:56
fewa@googleJun 04 14:57
fewaarrogenceJun 04 14:57
schestowitzDaemonFC: I told you the video woild upset some peopleJun 04 14:58
schestowitzJust got this by E-mail:Jun 04 14:58
schestowitz"What on earth does the following propaganda video have to do with ODF orJun 04 14:58
schestowitzanything else on the page?Jun 04 14:58
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/ballmer-blackmails-obama/Jun 04 14:58
schestowitz"One reader, DaemonFC, has suggested that we share theJun 04 14:58
schestowitzfollowing video, from which we produced an Ogg versionJun 04 14:58
schestowitztoo. ""Jun 04 14:58
schestowitzGlobby would go nicely with the Chrome colour paletteJun 04 14:59
fewaschestowitz, you can put the ogg link inside a <video> element to magically embed itJun 04 14:59
fewaand then have the link _inside_ the <video> element as a fallbackJun 04 14:59
DaemonFChehJun 04 15:01
schestowitzI do bothJun 04 15:01
schestowitzOh, I see.Jun 04 15:02
fewa<video src=/videos/retirement-us.ogg><a title="View Ogg Theora version" href="/videos/retirement-us.ogg"><img alt="Ogg Theora" src="http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ogg-128x128.png"/></a></video>Jun 04 15:02
schestowitzI know what you mean nowJun 04 15:02
schestowitzyeahJun 04 15:02
schestowitzBut..Jun 04 15:02
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schestowitzI guess for those who want to download it this might be helpfulJun 04 15:02
fewait wont autoplay without "autoplay"Jun 04 15:02
schestowitzAlso, it tells people to get  a Web browser with ogg sipportJun 04 15:02
fewaor for xhtml autoplay=autoplayJun 04 15:02
schestowitzAUtoplay is badJun 04 15:03
schestowitzIt means people land on pages with noiseJun 04 15:03
fewayes it isJun 04 15:03
fewavery badJun 04 15:03
schestowitzEven YouTube won't autoplay unless you open jsut the vidJun 04 15:03
fewayeah it doesJun 04 15:03
fewai have a add on that makes it not autoplayJun 04 15:03
schestowitzOh CRAPJun 04 15:04
schestowitzIntel to acquire Wind River for $884 Million < http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133945&source=rss_news >Jun 04 15:04
schestowitzSo WInd River is now part of a criminal organisationJun 04 15:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: State governments can't give health insurance and food stamp benefits to needy children because they're too busy throwing billions of dollars on wealthy seniors who don't even need the helpJun 04 15:05
DaemonFCI just find that so disgustingJun 04 15:05
DaemonFCit's like my grandmother, takes in over $50,000 a year before she even works, and probably about $70,000 or so after you consider that she's working 10-12 hours a weekJun 04 15:07
fewaah the <video> didnt work cause i have noscriptJun 04 15:07
DaemonFCshe just traded in a perfectly good Buick so she can have a CadillacJun 04 15:07
DaemonFCand she gets MedicareJun 04 15:07
fewaand firefox implaments alot of html with javascriptJun 04 15:07
DaemonFCI think I was just born about 2 generations too lateJun 04 15:11
DaemonFCmy grandparents generation decided to help themselves to my generation's share of the pieJun 04 15:11
schestowitzWind River Acquired by Convicted Criminal Organisation http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/wind-river-acquired-by-intel/Jun 04 15:26
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zer0c00llolJun 04 15:28
zer0c00l*convicted criminal orgJun 04 15:28
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schestowitzbblJun 04 15:29
DaemonFCWind River makes VXWorksJun 04 15:47
DaemonFCwhoaJun 04 15:47
DaemonFCthis track has FAAC going bat shit crazyJun 04 15:47
DaemonFCLAME MP3 could never keep up with thisJun 04 15:47
DaemonFCFAAC's VBR algorithm is much more responsive/capable than VorbisJun 04 15:49
DaemonFCI wonder if they could port it overJun 04 15:49
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DaemonFClmaoJun 04 15:50
DaemonFCI said bat shit crazy and then that term was actually in the lyricsJun 04 15:51
DaemonFC:PJun 04 15:51
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DaemonFCoiaohm: Whatever the VLC bug is it's gone in today's 1.0 branch buildJun 04 16:12
DaemonFCso whatever it is has been fixed and will most likely be in 1.0Jun 04 16:14
BalrogDaemonFC: when will 1.0 be out? There's a nasty bug in the Dirac/Schroedinger decoderJun 04 16:45
DaemonFCwell, it's gotta be closeJun 04 16:45
DaemonFCthey've been doing 1.0 branch builds for over a monthJun 04 16:46
DaemonFCthey've been doing 1.1 trunk builds alongside the daily 1.0 branchJun 04 16:46
DaemonFCI really like FAAC now that I've learned it through trial and errorJun 04 16:48
DaemonFCwhen I say they have almost no documentation, I mean just thatJun 04 16:48
DaemonFCtheir site is basically a dumping ground for source code with no manual or anythingJun 04 16:48
DaemonFCits Wikipedia information consists of ONE line, MENTIONING it on the main AAC pageJun 04 16:49
DaemonFCthis has to be the most poorly documented open source program I've ever come acrossJun 04 16:53
DaemonFCit's awesome and yet there's NO documentation on itJun 04 16:53
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://www.bing.com/news?FORM=ZZLH8Jun 04 16:54
DaemonFCBing has decided to take on Google News as wellJun 04 16:54
DaemonFCBing will munch the internetzJun 04 16:55
DaemonFCBing will eat Balrog and rename him IronBalrog and integrate him into .NetJun 04 16:55
DaemonFC:PJun 04 16:55
DaemonFCthe Top News pane is a "web slice"Jun 04 16:57
DaemonFCyou can integrate it into your Internet Explorer Favorites barJun 04 16:57
DaemonFCat least Microsoft has finally gotten over the push content ideaJun 04 16:58
DaemonFCBing also appears to be valid XHTMLJun 04 17:00
DaemonFCaccording to the validation page at w3.orgJun 04 17:00
DaemonFChmmm, spoke too soonJun 04 17:01
DaemonFCthe news page I was on validated but their front page has 12 errorsJun 04 17:01
DaemonFCwhich are all actually minorJun 04 17:01
DaemonFChttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31103610/Jun 04 17:05
DaemonFCNo charges in beating of man in child-rape caseJun 04 17:05
DaemonFCheh, they should give them all a medalJun 04 17:05
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DaemonFCI wonder if most AAC players know what Variable Bitrate isJun 04 17:26
DaemonFCor if they all just assume you used a braindead encoder like iTunesJun 04 17:26
DaemonFCguess I'll find out when it gets hereJun 04 17:26
DaemonFCit also seems to support a wasted bits feature like FLACJun 04 17:31
DaemonFCit can use 1 bit to encode a chunk of noise/randomness where mp3 can only drop to 32kJun 04 17:32
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 17:32
schestowitz===Jun 04 17:34
schestowitz guess, but medicare is far, far too political a topic to help *any*Jun 04 17:34
schestowitzgroup.  Personally, I'd stay away from pure non-tech politics like that.Jun 04 17:34
schestowitz It can't help the credibility of the rest of the BN site.Jun 04 17:34
schestowitz-LarsJun 04 17:34
schestowitz* I haven't followed medicare in detail.  The AMA has even moreJun 04 17:34
schestowitzpolitical clout than the NRA and has been able to keep the last 25 yearsJun 04 17:34
schestowitzof elections from addressing universal health care.  You notice thatJun 04 17:34
schestowitzsome election years it gets as far as 'universal insurance' before dying.Jun 04 17:34
schestowitz==Jun 04 17:34
schestowitzsee?Jun 04 17:34
DaemonFCyeahJun 04 17:36
DaemonFCthat last bit was exactly rightJun 04 17:36
DaemonFCEXACTLY rightJun 04 17:36
DaemonFCHillary Clinton had a plan that Bill was going to press congress forJun 04 17:36
DaemonFCbut the drug and insurance cartels started running attack adsJun 04 17:36
DaemonFCto convince the public it was a bad thingJun 04 17:37
DaemonFCand spend millions lobbying Congress to shoot the plan down before it ever even got seriously consideredJun 04 17:37
DaemonFCthis was back in 1993Jun 04 17:37
DaemonFCI refuse to call pharma or insurance "industries"Jun 04 17:38
DaemonFCthey are cartelsJun 04 17:38
DaemonFCschestowitz: I believe that said industries violate both the Sherman Act of 1890 and the RICO Act of 1970Jun 04 17:40
DaemonFCbut they have enough money that the law doesn't apply to themJun 04 17:40
DaemonFCpretty much like Microsoft, Apple, the RIAA/MPAA.......Jun 04 17:42
DaemonFCit's all pay to playJun 04 17:42
DaemonFCthey can accuse Obama of "Chicago Politics", but really that's how it is everywhereJun 04 17:43
DaemonFCpretty much every member of Congresss has been boughtJun 04 17:43
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schestowitzLinux gets the (fast) boot: The holy grail of 100% uptime is a little bit closer < http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/02/the-holy-grail-of-100-uptime-is-a-little-bit-closer/ >Jun 04 17:51
schestowitzLinux gets luv from JavaFX : http://www.h-online.com/open/JavaFX-1-2-arrives-now-running-on-Linux-and-Solaris--/news/113433Jun 04 17:52
fewasweet my sheevaplug just arrivedJun 04 17:53
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DaemonFCschestowitz: They need to integrate Ksplice into the kernelJun 04 17:57
DaemonFCthen you'll be a lot closer to that goalJun 04 17:57
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 17:58
DaemonFCohhh, the portable player I got apparently has an Nvidia GPU in itJun 04 17:59
DaemonFCI hope Rockbox works on itJun 04 18:00
DaemonFCI'll have DOOM on my MP3 playerJun 04 18:00
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 18:00
schestowitzIt though it was integratedJun 04 18:00
schestowitzLike kvmJun 04 18:00
schestowitzBoth Red Hat's IIRCJun 04 18:01
schestowitzDoom sucks nowJun 04 18:01
schestowitzEven the Internet is more funJun 04 18:01
*schestowitz has some doom exe somewhere Jun 04 18:01
DaemonFCyeah, but it's DOOM!!!!Jun 04 18:02
DaemonFCOn an MP3 player!!!Jun 04 18:02
kentmadoom was wonderful, once... I spent many a happy hour hosting doom parties :-)Jun 04 18:02
DaemonFCHow can you not like the two geekiest things ever in one?Jun 04 18:02
kentmaI have around 7,000 wads still on the nwservJun 04 18:02
DaemonFCI had DOOM for DOSJun 04 18:02
kentmajust no running dos machines to play them any more :-)Jun 04 18:02
DaemonFCit called itself the DOOM Operating SystemJun 04 18:02
DaemonFCcause of all the DOS extenders it had to useJun 04 18:03
DaemonFCthere's DOOM 95Jun 04 18:03
DaemonFCthat still runs on VistaJun 04 18:03
kentmaI had doom running on drdos, msdos and freedos at various times, the main thing was needing the ipx network to host the game(s).Jun 04 18:03
DaemonFCand there's the various open source engines like PRBOOM on Linux that can use DOOM WADsJun 04 18:03
DaemonFCso yeah, still runsJun 04 18:03
DaemonFCLinux supports IPXJun 04 18:04
kentmaprboom was good, too, but I preferred another one which had "extensions".Jun 04 18:04
DaemonFCWindows doesn't as of VistaJun 04 18:04
kentmaDaemonFC: I know, I used to host the network with nwserv running on a linux server.Jun 04 18:04
DaemonFCXP doesJun 04 18:04
DaemonFCMicrosoft took the opportunity to gut a lot of legacy crap that nothing uses anymoreJun 04 18:05
DaemonFCWindows 7 finally gets rid of the MS Agent supportJun 04 18:05
DaemonFC:PJun 04 18:05
kentmaI had a massive stack of scripts created to set up multi-player games based on the dos directories the wads were stored in and so on.  I never developed the enthusiasm to re-create the same thing on linux machines.Jun 04 18:05
DaemonFCIE 8 can no longer use gopherJun 04 18:06
kentmaafairc, I even had a self-modifying autoexec or config.sys or both, so that different extenders and drivers could be loaded  :-)Jun 04 18:06
kentmaDaemonFC: no more gopher?  disaster!Jun 04 18:06
DaemonFCthey disabled it in IE 6 with XP SP2Jun 04 18:06
schestowitzWe're quoted a lot here: http://innerphaze.homelinux.com/blog/?p=769Jun 04 18:06
DaemonFCbut a registry tweak could re-enable itJun 04 18:06
kentmaMy first web experience was lynx as a gopher menu item :-)Jun 04 18:06
DaemonFCIE 8 removes the code for itJun 04 18:06
neighborleeDaemonFC, and that was taking up precoius resources, thereby BOGging down ones system horrifically ;)Jun 04 18:07
kentmathere were only a couple of gopher servers still going last time I checked.Jun 04 18:07
neighborleeschestowitz, ive yet to see the verification on fspot on rehdat list..time will tell ;0--Jun 04 18:07
DaemonFCwell, their reasoning was it was a bit of code that could potentially have a security bug or two that nothing ever uses anymoreJun 04 18:07
DaemonFCso in the name of cleaning up the "low hanging fruit"Jun 04 18:07
kentmawierd claim.Jun 04 18:08
DaemonFCthey stripped out the channel band in IE 7Jun 04 18:08
DaemonFCyou remember that Active Desktop chaqnnel band full of advertising in Windows 98?Jun 04 18:08
DaemonFCIE 6 on XP still supported the channel band, but it had no content in itJun 04 18:09
DaemonFCiexplore -channelband would still load it, blankJun 04 18:09
kentma:-)Jun 04 18:10
DaemonFCthere were a startling number of obvious security holes left open by crap that never should have been there and wasn't even used any moreJun 04 18:10
Balrogkentma: the next version of firefox after 3.5 will drop gopherJun 04 18:11
DaemonFCone of the things you'll notice is that with Windows 95 with Desktop Update, you gained the ability to browse the web through any Windows Explorer windowJun 04 18:11
Balrogyou'll have to install an extensionJun 04 18:11
kentmaBalrog:  ah, that's just terrible :-)Jun 04 18:11
DaemonFCMicrosoft finally put an end to that stupidity with IE 7Jun 04 18:11
kentmai wonder if everything in FF should be an extension?Jun 04 18:12
DaemonFCthere's still plenty that IE 8 does that I don't like, but it's nowhere near as horrible as IE 6Jun 04 18:12
DaemonFCthey've at least gotten rid of the most obvious security hazardsJun 04 18:12
DaemonFCit's now a separate application and not part of the actual shellJun 04 18:13
kentmaDaemonFC:  To be honest, I don't much care - I'd never use it outside of a corporate space, because anything MS will never be secure anyway.  I doubt many corporates will even consider IE8 - why take the risk?Jun 04 18:13
kentmaI find IE loathsome to use, for that matter, too.Jun 04 18:13
DaemonFCif they insist on IE, IE 8 is a much better way to go than sticking to IE 6Jun 04 18:13
kentmaDaemonFC: known risk to unkown risk?Jun 04 18:14
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 04 18:14
DaemonFCmore like obvious suicide to who knowsJun 04 18:14
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 18:14
DaemonFCIE 6 is trivial to exploitJun 04 18:15
kentmaI'm a great believer in btdyn, which interestingly, is one reason why so many people still use MS at all.Jun 04 18:15
kentmaDaemonFC: then switch to ff.Jun 04 18:15
DaemonFCthere have been security bugs in IE 7 and 8, but nothing like IE 6Jun 04 18:15
DaemonFCso I really have no idea why anyone could justify using IE 6Jun 04 18:15
DaemonFCor even having it installedJun 04 18:15
kentmaDaemonFC: okay, but then the problem is IE, so stop using MS products, use ff.  Although I did notice recently that MS have deliberately tried to damage the security of Firefox of late by adding nasty extensions to it.Jun 04 18:16
DaemonFCyes, those extensions are actually more hazardous in Firefox than they are in IEJun 04 18:16
DaemonFCand Microsoft had no right to do thatJun 04 18:16
kentmaMS never worry about whether they have the right - they do it and then go to court later, hopefully having the Judge replaced if it doesn't go well.Jun 04 18:17
DaemonFCif something attacks a security bug in .Net through IE, they have the same restricted access to the system IE has, but in Firefox they have the permissions of whoever is logged inJun 04 18:17
DaemonFCnot good either way, but definitely scarier in FirefoxJun 04 18:18
kentmaDaemonFC: but nobody would be other than user running FF, anyway?  Ah, no, I forgot, it's windows - everyone is an admin in windows, which is one reason why it's so insecure anway.Jun 04 18:18
Balrogbut why does MS have to secretly inject code into FF?Jun 04 18:18
DaemonFCnoJun 04 18:18
kentmaI come back to my point - if you want security, avoid Microsoft.Jun 04 18:18
DaemonFCI'm a standard user with an administrator elevation tokenJun 04 18:18
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 18:19
DaemonFCand IE uses that token to restrict itself to Low Integrity accessJun 04 18:19
kentmaDaemonFC: you use windows by /choice/?Jun 04 18:19
DaemonFCFirefox would have Medium Integrity accessJun 04 18:19
DaemonFCnot really so much by choiceJun 04 18:20
kentmaIf I were running windows, I wouldn't take it on the internet anyway - it's just too insecure.Jun 04 18:20
MinceRhe's the resident m$ fanboyJun 04 18:20
MinceRoh, and trollJun 04 18:21
schestowitzToo harsh a headline? Wind River Acquired by Convicted Criminal Organisation < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/wind-river-acquired-by-intel/ >Jun 04 18:21
schestowitzWhy do criminals geta  free pass?Jun 04 18:21
DaemonFCeveryone that uses it and knows anything about it is a fanboyJun 04 18:21
schestowitzI'm tired of censorship...Jun 04 18:21
DaemonFCI keep forgettingJun 04 18:21
schestowitzLike people who nitpick factual things that bluntly say the truth and use them t discreditJun 04 18:22
schestowitzSt00pid pressJun 04 18:22
kentmaDaemonFC: if you choose to use it when you have alternatives, you must have some positive views on it.  The term "fanboi" is too emotionally loaded for me, I'm not really sure what it means, but I know it's intended to be hiighly derogatory.Jun 04 18:23
DaemonFCno, I just don't like not having drivers and reverse engineering thingsJun 04 18:23
schestowitzIs Microsoft Following GM's Road Map? < http://www.pcworld.com/article/166070/is_microsoft_following_gms_road_map.html >Jun 04 18:23
DaemonFCand applying patches that GNU keeps out for purely political reasonsJun 04 18:23
DaemonFCthat were submitted 2 years agoJun 04 18:23
MinceRif you don't like not having drivers and reverse engineering things then why do you use windows?Jun 04 18:23
kentmaDaemonFC: then why use Windows?  Hardware support is awful.Jun 04 18:24
MinceRwindows' driver support sucksJun 04 18:24
DaemonFCeverything I have worksJun 04 18:24
MinceRand it's all proprietary crap so if you want to figure something out you've got to reverse engineer itJun 04 18:24
kentmaDaemonFC: me too.  I just don't have any Windows.Jun 04 18:24
schestowitzMicrosoft is already borrowing money openly.Jun 04 18:24
MinceRstrange, everything i have works on gnu/linuxJun 04 18:24
schestowitzSame hereJun 04 18:24
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DaemonFCGMediaStreamer (iirc) is deliberately crippled by the GNU people so that it won't talk to an XBOX 360Jun 04 18:25
DaemonFCwithout the user applying out of tree patches against itJun 04 18:25
DaemonFCpolitical bullshitJun 04 18:25
kentmaDaemonFC: I have a bubba1, bubba2, mythtv on an acer (pre-installed by efficientpc), 3 other efficientPC ubuntu machines, two nokia 770s and one nokia 800, an archos media player (wife's), and a triple-dragon satellite receiver.Jun 04 18:25
MinceRat least you get to choose to apply out of tree patchesJun 04 18:25
MinceRdo you get that choice on windows? of course you don'tJun 04 18:25
kentmaDaemonFC: when you get to apply patches to the windows kernel, then we'll have something to discuss.Jun 04 18:25
DaemonFCit's like 20 kilobytes and adds the 360's transfer modeJun 04 18:25
DaemonFCit's not like it kludges the code and benefits nobodyJun 04 18:26
kentmaDaemonFC: you can patch yourself in linux if you want to - that's what freedom is about.  You cannot patch windows *at all*.Jun 04 18:26
DaemonFCa lot of the settings you have to build into the kernel in Linux are actually part of other system filesJun 04 18:26
DaemonFCand yes, you can patch themJun 04 18:26
kentmaOh yeah, I've an Acer Aspire one (linpus) and  a motorola A780 phone (linux), and two tomtoms (linux).Jun 04 18:26
DaemonFCjust not "officially"Jun 04 18:27
MinceRand not "legally"Jun 04 18:27
DaemonFCso?Jun 04 18:27
kentmaDaemonFC: you can't patch windows *at all*.Jun 04 18:27
MinceRand you have to "work" for micro$oft to get access to the data that would allow you to do soJun 04 18:27
DaemonFCyes you canJun 04 18:27
kentmaDaemonFC: no, you can't.  Microsoft can, you can't.  The eula is extremely specific about this.Jun 04 18:27
DaemonFCI've seen most of the NT kernel source codeJun 04 18:28
kentmaDaemonFC: unless you think breaking the law is good?Jun 04 18:28
DaemonFCminus file system code and driversJun 04 18:28
kentmaDaemonFC: I've seen source code for several voice switches, but I'm *not allowed* to patch it.Jun 04 18:28
MinceRhe thinks breaking the law is good as long as you do it with windowsJun 04 18:28
MinceRbut otherwise it's badJun 04 18:28
DaemonFCno, I've legally seen the Windows 2003 kernel source codeJun 04 18:28
MinceRDaemonFC: have you successfully compiled a kernel from it on a machine you own?Jun 04 18:28
kentmaDaemonFC: legally seen is not the same as legally allowed to patch!Jun 04 18:29
MinceRremember, "most of [it]" won't compile.Jun 04 18:29
kentmaOr do you have some special licence from MS for this?Jun 04 18:29
MinceRhe probably works for m$Jun 04 18:29
DaemonFCnoJun 04 18:29
MinceRas an astroturfer or something.Jun 04 18:29
DaemonFCShared Source LicenseJun 04 18:29
MinceRor just a desperate stock holder.Jun 04 18:29
kentmaDaemonFC: hahahaha!Jun 04 18:29
MinceR(i know one)Jun 04 18:29
DaemonFCWindows Research KernelJun 04 18:29
kentmaDaemonFC: so as I said, you're not allowed to patch it.Jun 04 18:30
MinceRiirc shared source does not legally allow you to use the source, only to look at itJun 04 18:30
tessierThe ABL itself seems like a good idea to me.Jun 04 18:30
kentmaMS doesn't share anything - the term is highly misleading.Jun 04 18:30
kentmaABL?Jun 04 18:30
MinceRit's funny how they call it a "research" kernelJun 04 18:30
MinceRi guess that's micro$oftspeak for industrial espionageJun 04 18:30
tessierAirBorn Laser. Laser on a 747 for shooting down ballistic missiles.Jun 04 18:30
DaemonFChttp://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedsource/windowsacademic/researchkernelkit.mspxJun 04 18:31
DaemonFCtheir site about itJun 04 18:31
MinceRoh, another funny word, "academic"Jun 04 18:31
kentmaacademic?  so you can't actually use it, then?Jun 04 18:31
kentmahaha!Jun 04 18:31
tessierSomething like that would quite handily replace Patriot missile systems around Israel, protect Japan from North Korea, etc.Jun 04 18:31
MinceRas in "formerly academic institutions we've bought"Jun 04 18:31
tessierWhile having no practical offensive use.Jun 04 18:31
MinceR"...and turned into marketing instutitions"Jun 04 18:31
kentmatessier: until a foggy day.Jun 04 18:31
MinceRwow, "core windows technologies"! i've always wanted to use "cutting-edge" technology from the 1970s!Jun 04 18:32
kentmaor a hot one, or one where there is a temperature inversion... or anything which can refract, or if someone has a mirror...Jun 04 18:32
DaemonFCno, Windows NT was released in 1993Jun 04 18:32
DaemonFCLinux is actually older than NTJun 04 18:33
kentmaor a prism, or indeed, a group of prismsJun 04 18:33
MinceRand windows nt was a hacked reimplementation of vmsJun 04 18:33
kentmain fact, you could have great fun cooking people who are trying to cook you :-)Jun 04 18:33
MinceRwith all the sense beaten out of itJun 04 18:33
kentmaMinceR: yes, Mr Cutler, as I recall.Jun 04 18:33
MinceRall the parts that could have served security and reliability were sacrificed for performanceJun 04 18:33
kentmaI presume he's left MS again, which is why they can't write another OS.  In fact, they never have, have they?  DOS was nicked, too.Jun 04 18:34
DaemonFCyeah, they poched the VMS team and based it on OS/2 and the Windows APIJun 04 18:34
DaemonFChorrified IBMJun 04 18:34
DaemonFCrightly soJun 04 18:34
kentmaDaemonFC: nope, that's quite wrong.Jun 04 18:34
DaemonFC*poachedJun 04 18:34
MinceRit horrified most people who looked at that mess :>Jun 04 18:34
kentmaMr Cutler and co came in from Compaq, I think, who'd acquired VMS.Jun 04 18:35
DaemonFChorrified everyone it put out of businessJun 04 18:35
DaemonFCyou have to wonder what MS was thinking when they saved AppleJun 04 18:35
kentmaThe early windows NT battle was a different one, and was about killing OS2 and having IBM over a barrel again.  MS don't care about customers, just global domination.Jun 04 18:35
kentmaDaemonFC: MS appear to have completely failed to kill IBM.Jun 04 18:36
kentmaAnd failed to kill google, too.Jun 04 18:36
kentmaand failed to kill Linux and the GNU project.Jun 04 18:36
kentmaand failed to kill FirefoxJun 04 18:36
DaemonFCmeh, IBM scapped OS/2, abandoned AIX, and is now becoming another generic vendor of RHELJun 04 18:36
MinceRthat code didn't put anyone out of businessJun 04 18:36
MinceRanticompetitive practices didJun 04 18:36
kentmaand failed to kill PS3, PS2 and wiiJun 04 18:36
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 18:36
kentmaand failed to kill iPodJun 04 18:36
MinceRibm scrapped os/2 because ibm is incompetent at managing any product it has below mainframe level.Jun 04 18:36
kentmaand even failed to get the BBC's streaming service as Microsoft-only.Jun 04 18:37
kentmaand failed to kill of spamJun 04 18:37
kentmaand failed to create a secure OSJun 04 18:37
kentmaand failed to create a secure HTTP serverJun 04 18:37
MinceRdespite all its mistakes, ibm will most likely outlive m$.Jun 04 18:37
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kentmaand failed to kill ApacheJun 04 18:37
kentmaand failed to kill ARMJun 04 18:37
DaemonFCno, they bought into ApacheJun 04 18:37
MinceRyet they haven't killed apache yetJun 04 18:38
kentmaand failed to kill Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Symbian and Android and LiMoJun 04 18:38
DaemonFCthey don't want to kill itJun 04 18:38
kentmaDaemonFC: they can't.Jun 04 18:38
MinceRyes, they never wanted to kill itJun 04 18:38
MinceRit isn't like they wanted to sell IISJun 04 18:38
DaemonFCthere's nothing stopping them from making a closed source fork of ApacheJun 04 18:38
MinceRthough that would explain why IIS sucks so muchJun 04 18:38
DaemonFCand making it run better on WindowsJun 04 18:38
DaemonFCand calling it IISJun 04 18:38
kentmaDaemonFC: haha!Jun 04 18:38
MinceR"making it run better" isn't really in their profile, you seeJun 04 18:38
MinceRif they could have done such a thing, they surely would haveJun 04 18:39
kentmaDaemonFC: they'd need to make windows work better first.  Which they can't - they've tried, and they can't.Jun 04 18:39
MinceRindeedJun 04 18:39
DaemonFCthey're going to I'm sureJun 04 18:39
kentmafailed to see the growth of the netbook and mobilityJun 04 18:39
kentmafailed to get Windows running on ARMJun 04 18:39
kentmafailed to have any success with Windows MobileJun 04 18:39
kentmaFailed with EncartaJun 04 18:39
kentmaFailed with Microsoft SearchJun 04 18:39
MinceRthey've given up on wince alreadyJun 04 18:39
kentmaFailed with Microsoft AutorouteJun 04 18:39
schestowitzYesJun 04 18:40
kentmaFailed with Wince :-)Jun 04 18:40
schestowitzGiven upJun 04 18:40
schestowitzBought DangerJun 04 18:40
MinceRdanger (which they own) has moved to netbsd alreadyJun 04 18:40
schestowitzDone nuthin' w/ itJun 04 18:40
schestowitzUS Trade Rep Promises Transparency... But Actions Speak Louder Than Websites < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090602/0905525095.shtml >Jun 04 18:40
kentmaeven failed to acquire Yahoo!!!!!Jun 04 18:40
DaemonFCthey didn't want YahooJun 04 18:40
MinceRlolJun 04 18:40
DaemonFCthey never intended to buy themJun 04 18:40
schestowitzThey have bad karmaJun 04 18:40
schestowitzLOL indeedJun 04 18:40
schestowitzDaemonFC: revisionism eh?Jun 04 18:40
kentmaDaemonFC: hahahaJun 04 18:40
MinceRi'm sure they decided they don't want yahoo after they failed to get itJun 04 18:40
schestowitzSure, DaemonFC, sure...Jun 04 18:40
MinceRsour grapesJun 04 18:41
DaemonFCby making the offer and letting that fucking idiot turn them downJun 04 18:41
schestowitzSo Yahoo! says yes, and then.,..Jun 04 18:41
DaemonFCthey destroyed them for freeJun 04 18:41
DaemonFCwith no red tapeJun 04 18:41
schestowitzMS: "No, we were just joking.."Jun 04 18:41
kentmaDaemonFC: they made a very specific series of stock-market statements indicating their intention to acquire Yahoo!!! they just failed to do so.Jun 04 18:41
DaemonFCit was a bluffJun 04 18:41
schestowitzDaemonFC: that was not the inettnJun 04 18:41
MinceRthey destroyed yahoo so badly they had to rename their search engine because nobody wants to use itJun 04 18:41
schestowitzPoaching employees maybeJun 04 18:41
DaemonFCthey were never going to buy themJun 04 18:41
kentmaDaemonFC: don't worry, MS are mostly about failure and have been for some timeJun 04 18:41
MinceRand before that, they had to pay people to make them use itJun 04 18:41
schestowitzThat failed tooJun 04 18:42
schestowitzAnd abused alsoJun 04 18:42
schestowitzCalled "bribery"Jun 04 18:42
kentmaDaemonFC: on what authority do you make this claim?  Basically, you're saying the broke the law here.Jun 04 18:42
MinceRsomehow yahoo didn't need to do either of those thingsJun 04 18:42
kentmaDaemonFC: what's your source for this claim?Jun 04 18:42
MinceRone would think that's precisely why m$ wanted to buy yahooJun 04 18:42
DaemonFCbecause buying a company for them is more complicated than walking into a store and buying chewing gumJun 04 18:42
schestowitzGuy Sets Up The Rape of His Wife -- But It's Craigslist That Gets The Attention < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090603/1627155116.shtml >Jun 04 18:42
DaemonFCif Yahell actually accepted, they knew the deal would be blocked by regulators anywayJun 04 18:42
DaemonFCthat's why they offeredJun 04 18:43
kentmaMinceR: there're serious laws about this kind of thing...  I want to know why DaemonFC is claiming that MS were being dishonest to the stock market.Jun 04 18:43
MinceRkentma: interestingJun 04 18:43
DaemonFCand if it somehow went through, they had the money to buy themJun 04 18:43
kentmaDaemonFC: that's a completely different issue.Jun 04 18:43
MinceRkentma: but i doubt he'll ever answer you, he's just a typical trollJun 04 18:43
schestowitzYeahJun 04 18:43
schestowitzTime waster hereJun 04 18:43
DaemonFCbecause they were using the regulators to their favorJun 04 18:43
kentmaMinceR: I've come to realise that during this short conversation.  I was suspicious when he kept talking about IE security stuff on this particualr channel.Jun 04 18:43
DaemonFCthey knew that either the DOJ or the EC would likely block itJun 04 18:44
kentmaDaemonFC: that's illegal - are you sure about this?  Do you have evidence?Jun 04 18:44
DaemonFCprovided Yahell accepted the offerJun 04 18:44
kentmaDaemonFC: or are you making this up?Jun 04 18:44
MinceRschestowitz: you can stop this particular waste of time though :>Jun 04 18:44
schestowitzMS surrenders: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184511/windows-armlessJun 04 18:44
DaemonFCthat's the whole thing, you can't prove it, and so it's the perfect crimeJun 04 18:44
kentmaDaemonFC: you are making a very serious claim here - what's your source, please?Jun 04 18:44
DaemonFCbut I'm pretty sure that's why they did itJun 04 18:44
MinceRyou're pretty sure of a lot of ridiculous assertionsJun 04 18:45
MinceR...and can't prove eitherJun 04 18:45
kentmaDaemonFC: ah, pretty sure... that's a huge change.  So it's a guess, and you have no evidence, in fact, all the evidence says something different.  Thanks for wasting my time.Jun 04 18:45
schestowitzIt gets him attentionJun 04 18:45
schestowitzRevisionismJun 04 18:45
schestowitzIt's like thr trolls in COLAJun 04 18:45
MinceRdo we need to give him attention here?Jun 04 18:45
kentmaschestowitz: agreed.Jun 04 18:45
schestowitzOr the claims that TomTom attacked MSJun 04 18:45
DaemonFCIt's not, it was a clever moveJun 04 18:45
kentmaMinceR: no more from me, I promise.Jun 04 18:45
DaemonFCit tanked Yahell's stock priceJun 04 18:45
DaemonFCit's still half of what it wasJun 04 18:45
schestowitzOr that Netscape commited suicideJun 04 18:45
schestowitzDaemonFC would say that tooJun 04 18:45
DaemonFCNutscrapeJun 04 18:45
kentmaDaemonFC: I no longer take you seriously.Jun 04 18:46
kentmaDaemonFC: in fact, I'd prefer it if you went to troll somewhere else, please?Jun 04 18:46
DaemonFCWould you buy something that already has proven it can't compete with Google?Jun 04 18:46
DaemonFCto try to help you compet with Google?Jun 04 18:47
DaemonFCthat makes sense doesn't it?Jun 04 18:47
schestowitzMicrosoft is screwing Cisco again: Them's Fightin' Words: Cisco Says HP-Microsoft Alliance Cuts Out Partners < http://www.crn.com/networking/217701681;jsessionid=Q1CWJSLFU5VZIQSNDLRSKH0CJUNN2JVN >Jun 04 18:47
kentmaCisco learnt everything they do from MS, though, didn't they?Jun 04 18:47
neighborleeIt is so amusing..how when you start to corner the mono supporters, that they start to cry fowl with stuff like: by directHEX: "  But why stop there? Pull OpenOffice.org, save 244.3 MiB. Pull FireFox, save 112.2 MiB. Pull Evolution, save 59.1 MiB " < its all they have  left, when other arguments FAIL to remain relvant :))Jun 04 18:48
neighborleehttp://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/74/ < from hereJun 04 18:48
DaemonFCGNU complains of GPL violation, Cisco dumps Linux alltogether and never looks backJun 04 18:48
DaemonFCgreat success?Jun 04 18:48
DaemonFCnow Wind River makes millions from Cisco royaltiesJun 04 18:49
kentmaneighborlee: the sign of a cornered troll, I think?Jun 04 18:49
neighborleeexactlyJun 04 18:49
DaemonFCso by correlation, GNU effectively propped up Wind River at the expense of LinuxJun 04 18:49
neighborleetime after time, this is what they resort to...here and on ubuntu forums..its all the same..where you dont usually see it m, is on fedora forums..  but thats because fedora's stance on mono has been more precise,,and now even more so....Jun 04 18:50
DaemonFCwhen they probably could have approached them differentlyJun 04 18:50
schestowitzLook at the propaganda language at thew MSBBC... "thieves".. "pirates"... who runs this site? http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/technology/8083866.stmJun 04 18:50
kentmaschestowitz: the BBC is getting worse and worse for this, but don't forget that the BBC is right in the middle of this debate, as one of the world's largest media distributors, and possible the most influential on the planet.Jun 04 18:50
schestowitzYes, exactlyJun 04 18:51
kentmastill, we won the iPlayer debate round 1!Jun 04 18:51
kentmamany thanks to Dr Simon Pugh MP.Jun 04 18:51
DaemonFCanyone using Gnutella needs to be smacked upside the headJun 04 18:52
DaemonFC:PJun 04 18:52
DaemonFCthat's where the MAFIAA goes fishingJun 04 18:53
DaemonFCcause it's so easy to poison GnutellaJun 04 18:53
neighborleeschestowitz, and then to make it look ok to development banshee,,,they tout the supposed 'fact' that  rhythmbox develoemnt looks to be DEAD anywayJun 04 18:53
neighborleeschestowitz, same thing that happend on redhat  mailng list , when someone suggested replacement for fspot..and someone chimed in and said WHY a new app.help a 'current' project instead ;)))Jun 04 18:53
DaemonFCI have to admit I got a few garbage files several years ago before I figured out what was going onJun 04 18:54
DaemonFCthat was like 2002-ish?Jun 04 18:54
DaemonFCI haven't used Gnutella sinceJun 04 18:54
DaemonFCthat network is just not resilient to attackJun 04 18:56
schestowitzAnalysis: MIME sniffing problems in PHP applications < http://www.h-online.com/open/Analysis-MIME-sniffing-problems-in-PHP-applications--/news/113447 >Jun 04 18:57
schestowitzneighborlee: thanks for the infoJun 04 18:57
schestowitzSome of it is older newsJun 04 18:57
schestowitzI have another post about Mono comingJun 04 18:57
neighborleeschestowitz, npJun 04 18:58
DaemonFCLinux Distro: "Can we distribute this?" Miguel De Icaza: "*shrug* Go ask Microsoft"Jun 04 18:59
DaemonFCand so Ubuntu goes whole hog and proceeds to crap up their OS with Mono everywhereJun 04 18:59
schestowitzAmarok 2.1 is out now that KDE claims it has great momentum http://www.kdenews.org/2009/06/03/amarok-21-let-there-be-light-releasedJun 04 19:00
neighborleeLOLJun 04 19:00
neighborleewell you seeJun 04 19:00
schestowitzNew KDE release: http://kde.org/announcements/announce-4.2.4.php http://www.kdenews.org/2009/06/02/kde-424-aka-cornrow-releasedJun 04 19:00
DaemonFCif it's really "free software" you shouldn't even really need to ask if you may distribute itJun 04 19:00
neighborleeas long as MOST people dont notice whats going on..they can do itJun 04 19:00
neighborleeits when people that notice make up the majority, that they cant procede..so thats why i ts been so important to try to get the word to average joe and cindy ;)Jun 04 19:01
DaemonFCwell, Novell keeps saying it's free software, and Icaza keeps telling people to ask MicrosoftJun 04 19:01
DaemonFCso someone has missed a memoJun 04 19:01
neighborleelolJun 04 19:02
neighborleeits called..cover thy arseJun 04 19:02
neighborleeand HOPE not too many people NOTICEJun 04 19:02
DaemonFCthen Novell says any distro can use Moonlight, then Microsoft says only Suse canJun 04 19:02
neighborleelike our government.or any other   cooporation...Jun 04 19:02
DaemonFCcrossed wiresJun 04 19:02
neighborleeLOL not rellyJun 04 19:03
neighborleeits easier and safer for novell to be wrong..if M$ is.the convicted monopolist.they all hell breaks looseJun 04 19:03
neighborleeits choosing the fall guyJun 04 19:03
DaemonFCwell, the truth is bound to happen accidentally at some point when you have 8 layers of managementJun 04 19:03
neighborleethat tooJun 04 19:04
DaemonFCwhat I think will be hillarious is if Ubuntu implements Moonlight and Microsoft does sueJun 04 19:05
DaemonFCwe'll see who's laughing and shrugging this off thenJun 04 19:05
DaemonFCMono/Moonlight are a hell of a lot scarier than an MP3 decoderJun 04 19:06
schestowitzIDF troll headline: http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2009/060309-will-oracle-kill-the-java.html?fsrc=rss-linux-news (Will Oracle kill the Java community?)Jun 04 19:06
DaemonFCactually, Ubuntu could legally provide an MP3 decoderJun 04 19:06
schestowitzMany headlines with question marks are trollingJun 04 19:06
schestowitzIf it's new, then report itJun 04 19:07
schestowitzDon't askJun 04 19:07
schestowitzLike Fox..Jun 04 19:07
schestowitzWe report, you decideJun 04 19:07
schestowitzWe give propagandaJun 04 19:07
DaemonFCthe Fluendo one is legal to redistribute with no royaltiesJun 04 19:07
schestowitzYou sheeple get angry at the Bad GuysJun 04 19:07
schestowitzDaemonFC: MP3 decoder != MS patentsJun 04 19:07
schestowitzLinux is not a big threat to Sisvel at alJun 04 19:07
mtnd3wThompson holds MP3 patentsJun 04 19:08
DaemonFCno, Fluendo legally licensed theirsJun 04 19:08
DaemonFCand the rights to distribute it freelyJun 04 19:08
schestowitzLet MS go out of business first: http://www.pcworld.com/article/166070/is_microsoft_following_gms_road_map.htmlJun 04 19:08
schestowitzThey try to elevate the cost of Linux in the mean timeJun 04 19:08
schestowitzBefore they go ch11Jun 04 19:08
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schestowitzBeware Windows on your ATMs. http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25484/1054/Jun 04 19:09
schestowitzI worry that a lot of people in tech think or feel like MS is the only bully in townJun 04 19:09
DaemonFCWindows is on damn near anything you slide a credit card onJun 04 19:10
schestowitzGoogle's Linux-managed/targeted apps will be cross-arch. "Android Market to work on Intel's Mobli"n < http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2009/060409-android-market-to-work-on.html?fsrc=rss-linux-news >Jun 04 19:11
DaemonFC"What about competition? So far, nothing substantial. Microsoft is actually competing with itself in many ways. Folks love Windows XP so much that they won't switch to Windows Vista, partly because they've heard it wasn't good, not because they've seen it or it's caused them any problems."Jun 04 19:12
DaemonFChehJun 04 19:12
schestowitzTwitterers Say David Carradine Found Dead < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/04/twitterers-say-david-carradine-found-dead > Said to be suicide..Jun 04 19:13
schestowitzhttp://www.david-carradine.com/Jun 04 19:13
mtnd3wDaemonFC that's why XP SP3 was so lousyJun 04 19:13
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_CarradineJun 04 19:13
DaemonFC"The Mac is still a niche market, not a threat. Linux supporters have yet to unite and battle the Redmond giant. Essentially, Microsoft has one advantage over GM: The competition won't cause its downfall."Jun 04 19:13
DaemonFCschestowitz: You sure this is the guy you meantto link to? hehJun 04 19:14
mtnd3wthey wanted people to switch to Vista, and everyone claimed how Vista is so much betterJun 04 19:14
mtnd3wnow we have Windows 7Jun 04 19:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: IDGJun 04 19:14
schestowitzI'm not a fan of theirsJun 04 19:14
schestowitzJust an eye-catching headlineJun 04 19:14
DaemonFChttp://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/desktop-linux-why-it-may-have-lost-its-chance-820Jun 04 19:14
DaemonFCthere's another oneJun 04 19:14
DaemonFC"It's time we faced it: The Year of the Linux Desktop, long foretold, isn't coming."Jun 04 19:15
DaemonFCflashy yesJun 04 19:15
schestowitzWither the talk about economic recovery. http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/04/online-job-demand-in-the-us-declines (Online Job Demand in the US Declines)Jun 04 19:16
DaemonFC"Enterprises aren't buying the Linux promise, nor are vendorsJun 04 19:16
DaemonFCYet if Microsoft is willing to spend millions on desktop Linux, the enterprise plainly is not. Even given the backlash against Vista and uncertainty surrounding Windows 7, there has been no mass exodus. By Ballmer's own figures, the greatest threat to Windows remains unlicensed Windows, not Linux. In fact, according to research from Net Applications, Linux's market share has declined in recent months, despite the breakout succesJun 04 19:16
DaemonFCs of low-cost Linux netbooks."Jun 04 19:16
DaemonFCI love these people, don't you?Jun 04 19:16
schestowitzDaemonFC: they use emotion to draw in crowdsJun 04 19:16
schestowitzI know the trollsJun 04 19:16
schestowitzI wrote about of of theirs yesterdayJun 04 19:16
schestowitzBill Syder, IDG (InfoWorlds)Jun 04 19:17
schestowitzAlso MS investorJun 04 19:17
*neighborlee has quit ("Leaving")Jun 04 19:17
schestowitzWhat Ballmer says must be trueJun 04 19:17
schestowitzAnd his former employee Hopkins from NetAppsJun 04 19:17
schestowitzWho will tell the wing with a wet thumb in the airJun 04 19:18
schestowitz"Hmm... Linux feels up this month... up to 0.000001%"Jun 04 19:18
schestowitz"Sorry... the data and methods are secret... like an old recipe"Jun 04 19:18
schestowitzThey just try to scare vendors...Jun 04 19:18
schestowitzTo deter hardware/drivers/gamers/program ports, etc.Jun 04 19:19
schestowitzBunch of pathetic liars. This should be criminalisedJun 04 19:19
schestowitzLike using false rumours to bump stock markets and stocksJun 04 19:19
schestowitzUsing lies that are self-fulfillignJun 04 19:19
BalrogIntel buys Wind RiverJun 04 19:22
Balrognot too good :(Jun 04 19:22
Balroghttp://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/06/intel-strikes-back-at-arm-buys-embedded-os-maker-wind-river.arsJun 04 19:22
mtnd3wBill Gates urges fellow rich to share their wealth http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h37xgxUGSoxn8tHWAxhkesTyVk7QJun 04 19:23
schestowitzhttp://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-me-david-carradine5-2009jun05,0,644033.storyJun 04 19:23
schestowitzConfirmed deadJun 04 19:23
schestowitzmtnd3w: just PRJun 04 19:23
schestowitz"fellow rich people urge Bill Gates to pretend they are good people"Jun 04 19:24
schestowitzThe olo routineJun 04 19:24
schestowitzAll the rich farts get people off each others' shouldersJun 04 19:24
mtnd3whilariousJun 04 19:24
schestowitzAnd the Fart from Bellvue (or Kikkland IIRC) will have the press say "WOW! He's so generous"Jun 04 19:24
schestowitzSo in essense.. the world's buggest thieves are shown for the most generous people"Jun 04 19:25
schestowitzSaving lives and all...Jun 04 19:25
schestowitzIf that's not Orwellian inversion, I don't know what isJun 04 19:25
schestowitzBalrog: I wrote about this in BN (latest)Jun 04 19:25
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/carradine_dead/Jun 04 19:25
schestowitzhttp://www.kungfucinema.com/martial-arts-actor-shek-ki-dead-at-96-7734Jun 04 19:25
schestowitz96 y-oJun 04 19:25
ThistleWebI thought he was 76, methinks that 96 is a typoJun 04 19:27
schestowitzRussia launches antitrust probe of Microsoft http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE55358020090604 Microsoft recently dumped money on Russia to prevent thisJun 04 19:27
Balrogthing is, I've worked with vxworks devices (PPC processor)Jun 04 19:27
Balrog:(Jun 04 19:27
schestowitzThistleWeb: another personJun 04 19:27
schestowitzShek KiJun 04 19:27
ThistleWebindeedyJun 04 19:27
schestowitzConcurrentJun 04 19:27
ThistleWebahh gotchaJun 04 19:27
schestowitzDomino effectJun 04 19:27
schestowitzShek Ki heard the news about CarradineJun 04 19:28
ThistleWebthought that was 2 different sources for the same storyJun 04 19:28
schestowitzCarradine is claimed to have killed himselfJun 04 19:28
schestowitzLots of that recentlyJun 04 19:28
schestowitzThe coming depression leads those with huge dirty secrets (or debt) to itJun 04 19:29
schestowitzI know some people who are on the same boatJun 04 19:29
schestowitzThe US make people prisonsJun 04 19:29
ThistleWebwell done on the site btw, I've subscribed to the rss for ages nowJun 04 19:29
schestowitzGive them too much 'credit'Jun 04 19:29
schestowitzCredit = euphemism for debt, prisonJun 04 19:29
schestowitzThistleWeb: thanksJun 04 19:29
schestowitzI have lots coming laterJun 04 19:29
schestowitzAbout 8 posts slated, given some timeJun 04 19:29
Balrogschestowitz: are you using the alpha theora encoder for the videos on your site?Jun 04 19:30
ThistleWebnot sure it suits a blog style though. A CMS like Drupal may suit it betterJun 04 19:30
Balrog // BNJun 04 19:30
mtnd3wthe whole donating of computers with Windows installedJun 04 19:31
mtnd3wis ensuring the next generation of zombie fanboysJun 04 19:31
DaemonFCyeah, that's where I started with WindowsJun 04 19:34
DaemonFCa hand me down 486 Packard Bell with Windows 3.11Jun 04 19:34
schestowitzBalrog: ffmpeg defaultJun 04 19:35
schestowitzThistleWeb: I'll do more on the Wiki soon.Jun 04 19:35
DaemonFCI think if any form of Linux would catch on, it would be one that at least "felt" right to someone that had been using WindowsJun 04 19:35
ThistleWebthe wiki is a great idea tooJun 04 19:35
schestowitzLater this month... Comes for the most partJun 04 19:35
schestowitzBut it needs TONS of workJun 04 19:36
schestowitzAfter this weekendJun 04 19:36
schestowitzWill be a weird week for me next week.Jun 04 19:36
DaemonFCunfortunately once you have that, they start charging and/or throwing in lots of stuff you don't really wantJun 04 19:36
schestowitzThen it quiets down on the interwebbies during sumerJun 04 19:36
schestowitz*summerJun 04 19:36
BalrogvxWorks is already used on ARMJun 04 19:38
DaemonFChmmm, is there anyone that makes Micro SDs that are more than 2 gigs?Jun 04 19:38
schestowitzMore Linux for ma and pa: http://www.stores.org/InformationTechnology/2009/06/Edit02.aspJun 04 19:38
schestowitzBalrog: and NASAJun 04 19:38
Balrogschestowitz: ffmpeg was producing somewhat corrupted .ogg files last time I triedJun 04 19:38
DaemonFCBalrog: Yes I know, I thoroughly enjoyed killing VX Worlks on my routerJun 04 19:38
schestowitzHow old is Wind River?Jun 04 19:38
DaemonFCwhat a pile of shitJun 04 19:38
schestowitzI wondered earlier todayJun 04 19:38
schestowitzDidn't look it upJun 04 19:39
Balrogif you're using CLI, make sure you use ffmpeg2theoraJun 04 19:39
DaemonFCthey've been around for a whileJun 04 19:39
schestowitzThey are like SCO in some waysJun 04 19:39
schestowitzor NovellJun 04 19:39
schestowitzfought LinuxJun 04 19:39
ThistleWebI'm always instantly dubious of Linux / FOSS stories on .asp sitesJun 04 19:39
schestowitzThe gave upJun 04 19:39
schestowitzEmbraced itJun 04 19:39
Balroghttp://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/Jun 04 19:39
schestowitzBecause it's free software and they canJun 04 19:39
DaemonFCschestowitz: If Cisco wanted something where they didn't need to contribute their source changes back, they should have used MINIX in my opinionJun 04 19:39
schestowitzBalrog: show me what to useJun 04 19:39
DaemonFCit would have been a hell of a lot better than VX WorksJun 04 19:39
Balrog^Jun 04 19:39
Balroghttp://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/Jun 04 19:39
schestowitzI covert from raw flaJun 04 19:39
schestowitzwith whatever they have inside themJun 04 19:40
schestowitzswf's with MPEGs probablyJun 04 19:40
Balrogit can convert from anything that ffmpeg can playJun 04 19:40
Balrogbut produces valid oggsJun 04 19:40
DaemonFCI've kind of sort of fallen in love with FAACJun 04 19:40
DaemonFCI can produce something smaller than Vorbis that sounds basically identical to the CDJun 04 19:41
BalrogDaemonFC: I use only lossless codecsJun 04 19:41
DaemonFCBalrog: I don't _want_ lossless files on a portableJun 04 19:41
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 19:41
Balrogeven on a portable :)Jun 04 19:41
DaemonFCI don't want to reduce my storeage space 6xJun 04 19:41
DaemonFCfor no reasonJun 04 19:41
Balrogalpha1 of the new theora codec (new libtheora.so) at http://www.theora.org/news/Jun 04 19:42
DaemonFCMP3 is crap and by the time you make a decent sounding Vorbis file, you're only trimming maybe 30-40% vs just using a FLACJun 04 19:43
DaemonFCI can get better sounding AAC files with a 550% reductionJun 04 19:43
BalrogAAC is good, but they still sound worse than losslessJun 04 19:43
DaemonFCFAAC is pretty awesomeJun 04 19:43
schestowitz└─(19:43 $)─> ./ffmpeg2theora-0.24.linux32\(2\).bin  ./Desktop/video.flvJun 04 19:43
schestowitzFile `./Desktop/video.flv' does not exist or has an unknown data format.Jun 04 19:43
BalroghrmJun 04 19:44
schestowitzOh waitJun 04 19:44
DaemonFCjoint stereo, backwards prediction, 500% QualityJun 04 19:44
DaemonFCyou'll average 5-8 megs per trackJun 04 19:44
schestowitzOKJun 04 19:44
DaemonFCand it sounds pretty identical to the CDJun 04 19:44
schestowitzWorksJun 04 19:44
Balrogschestowitz: good. Now you'll be generating valid oggs .... about the quality, that has to do with the .so shared libraryJun 04 19:44
schestowitzAny options for sync?Jun 04 19:44
schestowitz./ffmpeg2theora-0.24.linux32\(2\).bin -p preview –sync ./video.flvJun 04 19:45
schestowitzSeems to work OKJun 04 19:45
DaemonFCaccording to the specs it defaults to Microsoft Transfer Protocol, but you can switch it to Mass Storage ControllerJun 04 19:45
schestowitzI'll tidy this up laterJun 04 19:45
DaemonFCso I'm going to do that right awayJun 04 19:45
DaemonFCthat's what made me end up deciding against the Zune I had in my cart, it only supports MTPJun 04 19:46
DaemonFCso Linux will basically not know what to do with it without libmtpJun 04 19:46
BalrogDaemonFC: not only thatJun 04 19:46
BalrogZune is MTP with a crypto layer, so libmtp can't work with itJun 04 19:46
DaemonFCoh niceJun 04 19:46
DaemonFCuggghJun 04 19:46
DaemonFCI chose wisely :)Jun 04 19:47
DaemonFCheheJun 04 19:47
DaemonFCBalrog: I think most of the file size reduction is because FAAC makes better use of variable bitrate than VorbisJun 04 19:48
DaemonFCVorbis' VBR scheme seems pretty stupid and slow to respondJun 04 19:48
DaemonFCkind of like MP3sJun 04 19:48
DaemonFCI had Winamp set to report the bitrate in real time and AAC is definitely more fluidJun 04 19:49
DaemonFCit's disturbing that Vorbis is so bad about its VBR schemeJun 04 19:49
DaemonFCall they'd need to do is change the encoderJun 04 19:50
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202636815&listingid=20164022&dcaid=17936Jun 04 19:52
DaemonFCdo you see what they've done?Jun 04 19:52
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 19:52
BalrogDaemonFC: what about it?Jun 04 19:53
DaemonFC11 cents gets them the cheapest listing on Bing and GoogleJun 04 19:53
DaemonFCthen you find out the shipping for that little thing is $6Jun 04 19:53
Balrogheh, that's how it goes :\Jun 04 19:53
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schestowitzhttp://www.stefanoforenza.com/fs-song-that-doesnt-suck/Jun 04 19:57
schestowitzInfinite Hands is OK tooJun 04 19:57
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schestowitzIs The Oracle Acquisition of Sun Cause For Worry? < http://www.connectedinternet.co.uk/2009/06/03/is-the-oracle-acquisition-of-sun-cause-for-worry/ >Jun 04 20:00
schestowitzSelena Frye does just a lot of space fillers, parroting other blogs.. http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=666Jun 04 20:02
neighborleeschestowitz, ROFL: http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/linux/105/  < " For those who have ever dealt with large companies, Sam’s piece comes across as naive at best, and deceitful at worst. 1 month is not a long time when dealing with large multi-nationals. I once didn’t receive a reply for 3 months from HP over a query "Jun 04 20:02
neighborlee" Sam’s piece comes across as naive at best, and deceitful at worst "Jun 04 20:02
neighborleesam should love that ;))lolJun 04 20:02
schestowitzGentoo dying? Hell NO! http://ben.liveforge.org/2009/06/04/gentoo-dyingJun 04 20:02
neighborleeas it ever alive ? ;0-Jun 04 20:02
schestowitzneighborlee: he's afraidJun 04 20:02
schestowitzIf he responds like thisJun 04 20:02
schestowitzSam is on the right topicJun 04 20:03
neighborleecorrectJun 04 20:03
schestowitzI don't trust blogs from monkeysJun 04 20:03
schestowitzBut hey, that's just meJun 04 20:03
neighborleeive tried gentoo..its ..interesting..challenging..slightly educationall..in the end I DONT Have time though..too much hastleJun 04 20:03
schestowitzOr chickensJun 04 20:03
schestowitzSnimalJun 04 20:03
neighborleeLOLJun 04 20:03
schestowitzSnimal farmJun 04 20:03
schestowitzI never saw himJun 04 20:03
schestowitzYou thought he was a chickJun 04 20:03
neighborleehaJun 04 20:04
schestowitzJust a chickenJun 04 20:04
neighborleeduring those commits, they neglected their docsJun 04 20:04
neighborleeI  also am not a fan of  masks..not ,,fun ;))Jun 04 20:05
schestowitzWhen will Opera go libre already? It's hard to recommend it.. Opera 10 beta: screenshots Camera icon < http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/productivity/0,1000001108,39659334,00.htm  >Jun 04 20:05
neighborleeas in not fun dealing with themJun 04 20:05
neighborleehmJun 04 20:05
schestowitzTry PCLOSJun 04 20:05
schestowitz2009.xJun 04 20:05
schestowitzIt has great reviewsJun 04 20:05
neighborleewhy them over mandrivaJun 04 20:05
schestowitzComes with codecs and allJun 04 20:05
neighborleehmJun 04 20:05
schestowitzLike better Driva than DrivaJun 04 20:05
neighborleeroflJun 04 20:06
schestowitzYeahJun 04 20:06
neighborlee:)Jun 04 20:06
schestowitzAlso PardusJun 04 20:06
schestowitzMyth busted: Software installation in Linux is difficult < http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-difficult/ >Jun 04 20:07
schestowitzWin7 versus Gentoo, round 2 [quick grub install for gentoo users] < http://jonhatalla.com/?p=10 >Jun 04 20:08
fewaschestowitz, finially a install review that gets at realityJun 04 20:09
schestowitzChris Smart on KDE4: http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7346/1.htmlJun 04 20:09
schestowitzfewa: ayeJun 04 20:09
schestowitzI see hal makes many edits todayJun 04 20:10
schestowitzIt's tiring watching WikipediaJun 04 20:10
schestowitzIt has been useful to show the recent Slog thoughJun 04 20:10
fewahal has been making bad faith edits tooJun 04 20:10
fewaremoving anything that is critical of windows supportive commentsJun 04 20:11
fewaand without reasonJun 04 20:11
schestowitzEven Microsoft's vapourware cannot beat what GNU/Linux offers TODAY: http://www.nuxified.org/blog/why_i_chose_ubuntu_after_trying_windows_7Jun 04 20:11
schestowitzfewa: yes, disgusting personJun 04 20:11
schestowitzhe's annoying the ODF core peopleJun 04 20:11
schestowitzBut they can't do muchJun 04 20:11
schestowitzSmears tooJun 04 20:11
fewawe need to get him banned from wikipedia for COIJun 04 20:12
schestowitzIf you could find a together MS connection like W-E gig, that would be a blastJun 04 20:12
schestowitzHave a go at tiJun 04 20:12
schestowitz*itJun 04 20:12
schestowitzMandriva Linux 2010 (my favourite distro) is coming: http://blog.mandriva.com/2009/06/03/mandriva-linux-2010-is-on-the-road/Jun 04 20:15
fewaive never used mandriveJun 04 20:15
fewawhat package management does it use?Jun 04 20:15
neighborleeschestowitz, that install url is nonsenseJun 04 20:16
neighborleeschestowitz, he's got pictures of a procedure, that in windows is very verry rare...at least from my point of view anyway its very rareJun 04 20:16
neighborleeschestowitz, I think the biggest problem for linux is  avaiability of some VERY high profile apps that only have windows binariesJun 04 20:17
neighborleeetc.Jun 04 20:17
schestowitzSpecial day for UNIX: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133574 http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133628 http://www.computerworlduk.com/technology/operating-systems/nix/in-depth/index.cfm?RSS&articleid=2281 http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133696Jun 04 20:17
neighborleeschestowitz, not to mention games...thats a huge oneJun 04 20:17
neighborleeschestowitz, fixable things..but its going to take alot of time I suspect.Jun 04 20:17
schestowitzYeah, well.. people use consolesJun 04 20:18
schestowitzWine matures tooJun 04 20:18
neighborleesome do yes...Jun 04 20:18
schestowitzMS ain't happy about itJun 04 20:18
neighborleeive no doubt of thatJun 04 20:18
neighborleewine does help alot yesJun 04 20:18
neighborleewhen it worksJun 04 20:18
neighborleeymmv ;)Jun 04 20:18
schestowitzI don't use it TBHJun 04 20:18
neighborleeI try to avoid itJun 04 20:18
neighborleeappdb is very nice thoughJun 04 20:19
neighborleeah crud btw ;)Jun 04 20:19
neighborleeI saw   ad last night,,about new 360 stuffJun 04 20:20
neighborleethe new mat the want to use to replace controllersJun 04 20:20
neighborleewi look out ;)Jun 04 20:20
neighborleewiiJun 04 20:20
neighborleedepends how good the control is I guessJun 04 20:20
schestowitzHeh, well...Jun 04 20:22
schestowitzbrb, gotta do some newsJun 04 20:22
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neighborleek have fun ;0-0Jun 04 20:29
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'm feel like reclaiming some of my tax moneyJun 04 20:31
DaemonFCby ripping some CDs from the public library which I as a taxpayer ownJun 04 20:31
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 20:31
DaemonFChehJun 04 20:31
fewanicktastique, what programs in windows dont require something like that?Jun 04 20:32
DaemonFCdon't require something like what?Jun 04 20:32
fewaall i can think of would be distrobution programs like steam, which as similar to linux AFAIK (never used), and CD-distrobuted binariesJun 04 20:32
fewaprograms in windows requires that sort of fooJun 04 20:32
fewaof course the security error was just a little extra sarcasmJun 04 20:33
DaemonFCLinux can use SteamJun 04 20:33
DaemonFCI've bought games from Steam through WineJun 04 20:33
DaemonFCand Steam is being portedJun 04 20:33
DaemonFCthey have a near finished version alreadyJun 04 20:33
DaemonFCthey shipped a Windows version on a CD that had some Linux binaries in the installation folderJun 04 20:34
DaemonFCso they must be about ready to do something with LinuxJun 04 20:34
DaemonFCabout damned time tooJun 04 20:34
DaemonFCthere's nothing to stop a company like Steam from doing business on LinuxJun 04 20:35
DaemonFCI'm sure there's some profit in it for them or they wouldn't be porting itJun 04 20:35
DaemonFCSteam is actually a DRM system that isn't malicious and won't bork your computerJun 04 20:37
Balrogschestowitz: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/2009-May/002191.html for the (alpha) theora libraryJun 04 20:37
DaemonFCand if you lose the disc you can just redownload anything you licensedJun 04 20:37
DaemonFCand everything you install through steam updates itselfJun 04 20:37
DaemonFCso there's some value in it for the customerJun 04 20:37
schestowitzYouTube UK has been f* recentlyJun 04 20:37
schestowitzNow it's downJun 04 20:37
schestowitzbrbJun 04 20:37
fewaDaemonFC, still no clear first sale rightsJun 04 20:38
DaemonFCIt beats the shit out of stuff like Starforce which is basically a computer virusJun 04 20:38
fewaSecureROMJun 04 20:38
DaemonFCor Sony SecuROM which is getting closer every versionJun 04 20:38
DaemonFCwell, you agree to that by doing business with themJun 04 20:39
DaemonFCthere's no nasty surprises when you bring it home and it has some SecuROM-style malwareJun 04 20:39
schestowitzLoads of great Linux news today. I'll post them firstJun 04 20:51
schestowitzThen expositions of dirty tricksJun 04 20:51
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_Hicham_Mr DaemonFCJun 04 20:55
_Hicham_alias the trollJun 04 20:55
_Hicham_howdy?Jun 04 20:56
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schestowitzYo!Jun 04 20:59
schestowitz_Hicham_: what's new?Jun 04 20:59
neighborleelolJun 04 21:00
schestowitzmib_1v3q8a> Russia launches antitrust probe of Microsoft:Jun 04 21:00
schestowitz<mib_1v3q8a> http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE5535802Jun 04 21:00
schestowitzPeople are seeing it everywhere alreadyJun 04 21:00
neighborleeyou guys are a funny bunch thats for sureJun 04 21:00
schestowitzI'll combined it with the Spain postJun 04 21:00
neighborleenever a DULL moment ..not ever ;00Jun 04 21:00
schestowitzbrbJun 04 21:00
neighborleewoah nellieJun 04 21:00
neighborleehmmmm interesting article..woah nelllieJun 04 21:00
neighborleeif that wins..they better HOPE this new control mechanism wins big..gets really popular ;0-Jun 04 21:01
tessierkentma: No fog or clouds at altitude.Jun 04 21:02
_Hicham_schestowitz : I am looking for DaemonFC, have u seen him?Jun 04 21:02
_Hicham_he is wanted by the InterpolJun 04 21:02
DaemonFCfuck themJun 04 21:02
tessierschestowitz: Unfortunately the chances of stopping MS in the most corrupt countries where there is no copyright enforcement are pretty slim.Jun 04 21:03
tessierSomeone in Russia just wants their payday.Jun 04 21:03
DaemonFCDa ComradeJun 04 21:04
DaemonFC:PJun 04 21:04
tessierUS/EU are their biggest market. And that's where it has to happen.Jun 04 21:04
tessierDaemonFC: That used to be a running joke in certain circles when I worked with the Air Force and we talked about something sensitive/secret.Jun 04 21:05
DaemonFCmy dad was a missile technicianJun 04 21:05
DaemonFCNCOJun 04 21:05
schestowitztessier: yes, BUT...Jun 04 21:05
schestowitzThey already deploy Linux at schoolsJun 04 21:05
schestowitzAnd they have popular movements vs MicrosoftJun 04 21:05
schestowitzSo it's getting complicated for themJun 04 21:05
schestowitztessier: yes, gas mostly, IIRCJun 04 21:06
tessierwhat's gas?Jun 04 21:06
DaemonFChe wound up working at RCA then GE bought them then sold it to Thomson in the mid 90sJun 04 21:06
DaemonFCthen they fired the product design staffJun 04 21:06
DaemonFCincluding himJun 04 21:06
DaemonFCand then about 3 years later they fired everyoneJun 04 21:07
DaemonFCand moved the operations to MexicoJun 04 21:07
DaemonFCthen closed down MexicoJun 04 21:07
DaemonFCand went to ChinaJun 04 21:07
DaemonFCthey ended up taking him back on contract to get their Mexicali plant runningJun 04 21:07
DaemonFCthen he went to work for Raytheon, then Caterpillar, now out of work againJun 04 21:08
DaemonFCat 57 years oldJun 04 21:08
DaemonFCso forgive me for hating the people that do this shitJun 04 21:08
DaemonFC:)Jun 04 21:08
neighborleetoo hot powering down to avoid poor puter overheating..ttyl :)Jun 04 21:09
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DaemonFCbut if you handed me a gun and put me in front of the people responsible I'd have no reservationsJun 04 21:09
DaemonFCpeople like Jack Welch deserve to be......well use your imaginationJun 04 21:11
DaemonFCI certainly haveJun 04 21:11
DaemonFCspeaking of Thomson however, they have the MP3 patents in the United StatesJun 04 21:12
DaemonFCthen in other countries Fruenhofer claims toJun 04 21:12
DaemonFCso this is where the "Who do I buy licenses from and does it protect me?" comes inJun 04 21:12
schestowitztessier: Russia exports gasJun 04 21:13
DaemonFCtechnically if I wanted to make a commercialized MP3 encoder or decoder, I'd have to pay MPEG-LA, Thomson, and FhGJun 04 21:13
schestowitzTo Europe too. I think Neelie and her agency did an investigation of corruption in this area 1-2 years agoJun 04 21:13
DaemonFCor else I'd almost certainly trip over someones patents depending on where I did businessJun 04 21:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: reserve death threatsJun 04 21:14
schestowitz<DaemonFC> but if you handed me a gun and put me in front of the people responsible I'd have no reservationsJun 04 21:14
schestowitzThat's no acceptable hereJun 04 21:14
schestowitzYou did this beforeJun 04 21:14
DaemonFCthat's a perfect example of why software patents are insane, no matter how many people you buy licenses from, someone could still sue youJun 04 21:14
schestowitzNext time you do this you can be kicked out I'm afraidJun 04 21:14
schestowitzyou're becoming a liabilityJun 04 21:15
DaemonFCso basically Thomson doesn't actually make anythingJun 04 21:16
_Hicham_we have a real terrorist in this channelJun 04 21:16
schestowitzCan't beJun 04 21:16
DaemonFCthey have one office in the United States and they consist of management and lawyer types and they're basically patent and copyright trollsJun 04 21:16
schestowitzThey tell us terrorists can only be "brown"Jun 04 21:17
schestowitzAnd they can't be English-speakingJun 04 21:17
schestowitzThat's the de facto interpretation of terroristJun 04 21:17
schestowitzhttp://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/02/maine_man_tries.htmlJun 04 21:17
schestowitz"Maine Man Tries to Build a Dirty BombJun 04 21:17
schestowitzNo one cares, probably because he isn't Muslim. White supremacist terrorism just isn't sexy these days."Jun 04 21:17
DaemonFCschestowitz: That guy that shot the abortion doctor was a Christian TerroristJun 04 21:18
DaemonFCI say they should waterboard himJun 04 21:18
DaemonFCsend him to GitmoJun 04 21:18
DaemonFCit'll never happen thoughJun 04 21:18
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schestowitzFor info espionage? What for?Jun 04 21:19
DaemonFChe'll get some high priced lawyer with funding from churches and anti-abortion groupsJun 04 21:19
schestowitzmaybe to fix ill fixationJun 04 21:19
DaemonFCand get 2-3 years for "involuntary mansluaghter"Jun 04 21:19
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schestowitzAbout an invisible man demanding we don't do abortionsJun 04 21:19
schestowitzit's fine with eggsJun 04 21:19
schestowitzWhen we do abortions to chicken we call it omletteJun 04 21:19
DaemonFCschestowitz: I was harassed by a group of Catholics when I went to see the movie DogmaJun 04 21:20
ThistleWebfrying pans are instruments of tortureJun 04 21:20
DaemonFCthey're terrified of a little sattireJun 04 21:20
ThistleWebas well as implements for producing some damn tasty but fattening grubJun 04 21:21
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_goblinhi allJun 04 21:21
_goblinI hate Comet...Jun 04 21:21
_goblinI buy a Linpus Netbook...Jun 04 21:21
DaemonFCwhat in the name of Zeus's butthole is Linpus?Jun 04 21:21
_goblinand a 3 broadband dongle.  I ask many times if its compat..."of course sir..>"Jun 04 21:22
DaemonFCit sounds like an STDJun 04 21:22
ThistleWeb_goblin, I used to work there, a LONG time agoJun 04 21:22
_goblinget it home....Jun 04 21:22
_goblinand as I thought, its Windows only.Jun 04 21:22
DaemonFCWineJun 04 21:22
_goblinGood idea.Jun 04 21:22
_goblinone problem...it wont connect to my wireless network....Jun 04 21:23
ThistleWebDaemonFC, Linpus is a netbook Linux distro some vendors ship withJun 04 21:23
DaemonFCWindows apps should have access through whatever you connect to through LinuxJun 04 21:23
_goblinsorry?Jun 04 21:23
DaemonFCyou mean it needs to access the internet right?Jun 04 21:24
_goblinah...misread...Jun 04 21:24
DaemonFCit should just workJun 04 21:24
_goblinit wont connect to my wireless....Jun 04 21:24
_goblinand the dongle has preloaded Windows software on it.Jun 04 21:24
ThistleWebmost devices have their own little trial or value added apps for windows onlyJun 04 21:25
_goblinthe real fun came when I rang customer services...Jun 04 21:25
_goblinfor 3 broadband...Jun 04 21:25
_goblinit was like trying to talk to a Romulan without a universal translator.Jun 04 21:25
ThistleWebI take it for granted than any pre-loaded software with a device will be wiped as it won't work in Linux, even if it does break the mould and is actually decentJun 04 21:25
ThistleWebthe bummer comes when it won't work without that softwareJun 04 21:26
_goblinso now Im left with a dilema.Jun 04 21:26
_goblindo I go for an XP netbook?Jun 04 21:26
_goblinsince I want to be online next week when Im down in Poole at my holiday house.Jun 04 21:27
ThistleWebsure, and get it in writing exactly where to claim your licence money backJun 04 21:27
DaemonFCyeah, you can usually ignore the CD in any eventJun 04 21:27
ThistleWebfrom what I know, as long as you never boot into your new pc and accept the licence they have no choice but to refund you the price of the licence, although they wuill do the usual and give you the runaroundJun 04 21:28
DaemonFCmy motherboard had a crapware CD that came with itJun 04 21:28
ThistleWebit's the vendors who pay, not MicrosoftJun 04 21:28
DaemonFCso?Jun 04 21:28
ThistleWebin case they try to tell you to contact MicrosoftJun 04 21:28
DaemonFCit's moneyJun 04 21:28
_goblinSorry, in my rant I lost the conversation....Are you talking about getting your money back on a Windows OEM?Jun 04 21:29
ThistleWeb_goblin, I was, yesJun 04 21:29
ThistleWebif you have to buy it with XP, let them know you dont want windows and get instructions on how to claim it backJun 04 21:30
_Hicham_I don't know why people don't just buy Netbooks and Notebooks preloaded with LinuxJun 04 21:30
_goblinBy law (and Microsoft can say what they will) you can demand a refund...that goes with any software and it matters not if you've initialized or registered it.Jun 04 21:30
_goblinthats UK.Jun 04 21:30
ThistleWeb_Hicham_, perhaps Microsoft leaning on retailers so the Linux versions are permenantly "out of stock"Jun 04 21:31
ThistleWebor the price of Windows goes up if retailers are disloyal to Microsoft by selling LinuxJun 04 21:31
_goblinIn respect of Linpus on the netbook, its not at all bad...Fedora isn't it?Jun 04 21:31
ThistleWeb_goblin, I believe it is Fedora yesJun 04 21:32
_goblinshame it not able to get online :(Jun 04 21:32
_Hicham__goblin : what wireless card do u have?Jun 04 21:32
_Hicham_what brand?Jun 04 21:32
_Hicham_and where is the big G?Jun 04 21:33
ThistleWebit may be worth trying different distros, another might pick up the dongle and let you onlineJun 04 21:33
_goblinI have a netgear router, in respect of whats in the netbook I dont know.Jun 04 21:33
_goblin(that Im trying to connect to)Jun 04 21:33
_goblinI have my main PC hardwired.Jun 04 21:33
_goblinand the secondary one aswell.Jun 04 21:34
zoobab01http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/forum/t-160633/european-patent-office-refuses-spanish-amicus-brief-against-software-patentsJun 04 21:34
_Hicham_basically, if Fedora fails, no other distro wouldJun 04 21:34
_Hicham_butJun 04 21:34
_Hicham_u can try ndiswrapperJun 04 21:34
_Hicham_did u try ndiswrapper?Jun 04 21:35
_goblinnoJun 04 21:35
schestowitz[News] Mandriva GNU/Linux 2010 is Coming, Community Asked for Ideas < http://www.linux-wizard.net/blog-community_ideas_proposal_for_mandriva_20100-289.html >Jun 04 21:35
_Hicham_are u sure it is a fedora?Jun 04 21:35
schestowitzzoobab01: it accepts them in GermanJun 04 21:35
ThistleWebI dunno, Fedora are kinda hardline about free drivers, some hardware will struggle with those restrictionsJun 04 21:35
_goblinyeah....apparently Linpus is fedora...Jun 04 21:35
_Hicham_is there yum?Jun 04 21:35
ThistleWebcertainly as far as the default goesJun 04 21:35
_goblinyes (after struggling to get xterm to run)Jun 04 21:36
_goblinno icon for it and not immediately obvious how to run a commandJun 04 21:36
schestowitzzoobab01: thanks,. got itJun 04 21:36
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_goblinctrl F2 didnt workJun 04 21:37
ThistleWebwhich pre-loaded netbook linux was criticised for hiding the terminal?Jun 04 21:37
balzac^_^Jun 04 21:37
_Hicham__Goblin : try this in xterm : lspci | grep Network ControllerJun 04 21:37
_goblinok...Jun 04 21:37
balzacIs Microsoft bankrupt yet?Jun 04 21:37
_goblinlol.Jun 04 21:38
schestowitzNot yetJun 04 21:38
_goblinit hung...Jun 04 21:38
ThistleWebbalzac, nup but keep urging people to buy XBOX's and they will beJun 04 21:38
schestowitzbalzac: it takes loans nowJun 04 21:38
_goblinWindows deja vu.Jun 04 21:38
schestowitzNot lookin' good for themJun 04 21:38
schestowitzLookin' for cheap labour tooJun 04 21:38
balzacI wish I could get a loan for www.disruptech.comJun 04 21:38
schestowitzAnd killing 13 products in the past 8 monthsJun 04 21:38
ThistleWebI said it ages ago in other places, but 2009 is the start of the end for MicrosoftJun 04 21:38
balzacDisruptech is going to gobble up Microsoft's market shareJun 04 21:38
ThistleWebnothing I've seen changes my opinionJun 04 21:38
schestowitzThistleWeb: yes, XBox division runs at a loss, stillJun 04 21:39
schestowitzHaving amassed about 7bn in losses so farJun 04 21:39
ThistleWeba lot of buisnesses have handuffed themselves to the Microsoft TitanicJun 04 21:39
schestowitzCitrixJun 04 21:39
balzacMicrosoft is like the TitanicJun 04 21:39
schestowitzbalzac: ask again in 3 months :-)Jun 04 21:39
ThistleWebsome will be able to adapt, but others have burned too many bridgesJun 04 21:39
schestowitzEarnings at MSFT are down 32%Jun 04 21:40
balzacSo big that people think it can't failJun 04 21:40
schestowitzWill be the same next quarterJun 04 21:40
schestowitzThey schedules Vista7 releaseJun 04 21:40
schestowitzAround the VERY SAME day as resultsJun 04 21:40
schestowitzEnd od OctJun 04 21:40
schestowitz*ofJun 04 21:40
balzacI'm going to fight like a hungry hippo for the market share Microsoft relinquishesJun 04 21:40
balzacI've earned my share of the carcassJun 04 21:40
schestowitzSo the chorus will be:Jun 04 21:40
_Hicham__Goblin : lspci | grep NetworkJun 04 21:40
balzacI'll run away with one of the haunchesJun 04 21:41
schestowitzWell, we suck badly, BUT....... {as the famous tactics goes} now we have Wow7Jun 04 21:41
ThistleWebbalzac, on all fours with a button on your ass triggering a long neck huh?Jun 04 21:41
balzacThistleWeb: sort of, except for that I'm pressing the button, and the hippo is my businessJun 04 21:41
ThistleWeblolJun 04 21:41
_Hicham_yes, Disruptech is gonna eat them allJun 04 21:41
_goblinIt seems this netbook is not liking anything now....Its hanging on boot!Jun 04 21:41
balzacAaawww m*therf*ckin' yeeaahhh!Jun 04 21:42
balzacDisruptech is the next big thing.Jun 04 21:42
ThistleWebHungry Hippos does have an interesting lesson to teach kids..."aim for the balls"Jun 04 21:42
balzacHungry Hippos is a very subversive game for communists to playJun 04 21:42
balzacyou get to see what happens if you don't act out of self-interest, rapidly, forcefully, and repeatedly.Jun 04 21:43
ThistleWeblolJun 04 21:43
balzacIt's fascinatingJun 04 21:43
balzacyou gotta slam that button fastJun 04 21:43
balzacI grew up on a "commune" in which things were rationedJun 04 21:44
balzacHungry Hippos is a lesson I'll never forget. It was an omen which forewarned about the economic collapse of our little economy.Jun 04 21:44
ThistleWebthere's only limited resourcesJun 04 21:45
ThistleWebgrab what ya can, fuck everyone elseJun 04 21:45
balzacWell, limited resources can be enough if people are mellow, but if there's going to be a fight, the fight will require more.Jun 04 21:45
ThistleWebseems like a corporate boardroom teaching aidJun 04 21:45
balzacin that case, attack the greediest to establish your right to control the spigotJun 04 21:45
balzacWhat if you're in the desert with 1000 people in the sunJun 04 21:45
balzacand just a dribble of water coming out of the spigotJun 04 21:46
balzacif everyone holds still and patiently waits, distributing the water, everyone can stay hydratedJun 04 21:46
balzacbut if people fight, they sweat, and water is spilled as people fightJun 04 21:46
balzacthen 500 people will dehydrateJun 04 21:46
balzacin that case, order is the primary social goodJun 04 21:47
ThistleWebhence the use of the gunJun 04 21:47
balzacinstantly squash anyone who cuts in lineJun 04 21:47
_Hicham_Disruptech is the futureJun 04 21:47
balzacyeah manJun 04 21:47
balzaceye of the tigerJun 04 21:48
_Hicham_the ripper of the stripperJun 04 21:48
balzacNot a ripper of any kindJun 04 21:48
*balzac puts on Polo sunglassesJun 04 21:48
balzacI'm the "lady-whisperer"Jun 04 21:49
_Hicham_the man with cows that is gonna kick windowsJun 04 21:50
_Hicham_DaemonFC : do u have a football club?Jun 04 21:50
_Hicham__goblin : did it boot now?Jun 04 21:52
balzac?Jun 04 22:00
balzaccan anyone visit www.fsdaily.com ?Jun 04 22:00
schestowitzI've just realised that not ever paying Intel would be hard because of x86 patents (even AMD). We need ARM.Jun 04 22:01
zoobab01Google for nnarmJun 04 22:02
schestowitzbalzac: been down for two daysJun 04 22:02
_Hicham_balzac : not workingJun 04 22:02
schestowitzSame with FS magazineJun 04 22:02
zoobab01http://www.foo.be/docs-free/nnARM/Jun 04 22:02
balzacwonder whyJun 04 22:02
schestowitzzoobab01: cool.Jun 04 22:02
balzacfree software magazine as well?Jun 04 22:02
balzacwtf?Jun 04 22:02
schestowitzSame serverJun 04 22:02
_Hicham_been ddos'ed maybe like BNJun 04 22:02
schestowitzMaybeJun 04 22:03
schestowitzThey were attacked by the same slimeJun 04 22:03
schestowitzFor supporting BNJun 04 22:03
schestowitzThey started attack FSDailyJun 04 22:03
balzacdisruptech will be next, I thinkJun 04 22:03
schestowitzThen FSDaily issued a form of warningJun 04 22:03
_Hicham_Disruptech will resistJun 04 22:03
schestowitzDusruptSuruptech.comJun 04 22:03
_Hicham_coz it is full of strippersJun 04 22:03
schestowitzDusruptDisruptech.comJun 04 22:04
_Hicham_no one will ddos strippersJun 04 22:04
zoobab01I think the author of nnARM received a letter for patent infringement from ARMJun 04 22:04
zoobab01ask adulau at foo.be if you want to know moreJun 04 22:04
zoobab01http://www.google.be/search?q=nnarm+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-aJun 04 22:05
balzacFSDaily issued a warning?Jun 04 22:05
zoobab01A clone of the ARM7 32-bit RISC processor core, previously available free for download from the Internet, has been taken down or hidden pending discussions between the core's designer and a Chinese representative of ARM Holdings plc (Cambridge, England).Jun 04 22:05
balzacI think this bodes well for BN, FSDaily and FSMJun 04 22:05
balzacDisruptech as well, since the focus of Disruptech is aligned with those three publicationsJun 04 22:05
_Hicham_no, they all like uJun 04 22:06
_Hicham_they won't think of such a thinkJun 04 22:06
_Hicham_u are a peaceful manJun 04 22:07
_Hicham_schestowitz have been attacked because he is a warriorJun 04 22:07
_Hicham_accustomed to big battlesJun 04 22:07
_Hicham_he is the gladiator of FOSSJun 04 22:08
balzac_Hicham_: Roy does a hell of a job, but I've got his back.Jun 04 22:08
_Hicham_woooooaaah schestowitzJun 04 22:08
balzacIt's like Tango and Cash. He's Stallone and I'm Burt Russel.Jun 04 22:08
_Hicham_schestowitz is gonna kill em allJun 04 22:08
balzacKurt RusselJun 04 22:08
balzacactually, I'll be able to say that once I've got my business off the groundJun 04 22:09
schestowitzStallone was doped up on steroidsJun 04 22:10
_Hicham_so he lost him manhoodJun 04 22:10
_Hicham_schestowitz doesn't use steroidsJun 04 22:10
balzacI didn't mean to imply that Roy uses steroidsJun 04 22:11
_Hicham_he is strong by natureJun 04 22:11
_Hicham_been born like thatJun 04 22:11
balzacbut I wanted to be Kurt Russel instead of StalloneJun 04 22:11
balzacBig Trouble in Little China was goodJun 04 22:11
_Hicham_u want to be balzacJun 04 22:11
_Hicham_at the endJun 04 22:11
balzachttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb4b4aEbYAoJun 04 22:12
_Hicham_balzac : do u use official Adobe Flash Player?Jun 04 22:13
balzacunfortunatelyJun 04 22:14
balzacI found the content was too much to ignoreJun 04 22:14
_Hicham_u didn't try swfdec or gnash?Jun 04 22:14
balzacI've said before, I disagree with the idea of missing out on content because of proprietary codecsJun 04 22:15
balzacI did try themJun 04 22:15
balzacmy asus eee is under-powered even with flash player to watch most youtube content or similarJun 04 22:15
_goblinsorry about that...AFK....I didn't realize BB was on tonight.Jun 04 22:15
balzacgnash and swfdec aren't very goodJun 04 22:15
balzacI think firefox is offering a viable alternativeJun 04 22:16
balzacwith html 5 <video> tagJun 04 22:16
balzacfirefox 3.5Jun 04 22:16
balzacI don't like the idea of gnash or icetea chasing moving targets with flash and java specificationsJun 04 22:16
balzacI think proprietary codecs should be attacked using more subversive methodsJun 04 22:17
balzacbreaking copyright law and challenging the DMCAJun 04 22:17
balzacI'm very offended by proprietary codecsJun 04 22:17
_Hicham_Youtube and Dailymotion are moving to html5Jun 04 22:18
balzacsweetJun 04 22:18
_Hicham_http://www.youtube.com/html5Jun 04 22:18
_Hicham_http://www.dailymotion.com/openvideodemoJun 04 22:19
_Hicham_but Richard Stallman is afraid of html5Jun 04 22:20
fewawhy?Jun 04 22:20
fewarunning apps on others computersJun 04 22:20
fewaweakening of GPL due to ASP loopholeJun 04 22:20
balzac_Hicham_: I'd say RMS is perpetually vigilant, not neccessarily afraid.Jun 04 22:20
_Hicham_because with HTML5, we can right more obfuscated codeJun 04 22:20
fewa_Hicham_, ????? explain yourselfJun 04 22:21
zoobab01HTML5 allows a binary object in <object>Jun 04 22:21
zoobab01or obfusctaed javascript codeJun 04 22:21
balzacinterestingJun 04 22:21
zoobab01basically SaaS is a threat to freee softwareJun 04 22:21
zoobab01but FSF lost the battle by not including Affero clauses in the GPLv3 by defaultJun 04 22:22
balzacmaybe the <object> tag should be a <blob>Jun 04 22:22
balzacblob tagJun 04 22:22
zoobab01flash is using the object tagJun 04 22:22
fewagoogle is fighting AGPLJun 04 22:22
zoobab01they wereJun 04 22:22
balzacgoogle is trying to be the new microsoftJun 04 22:22
zoobab01AGPL is not even allowed on google codeJun 04 22:23
fewa^^Jun 04 22:23
_Hicham_Google is not interested in any principleJun 04 22:23
_Hicham_just moneyJun 04 22:23
_Hicham_just like MicrosoftJun 04 22:23
_Hicham_when will people get that?Jun 04 22:23
balzacbut isn't it dumb for google to basically make it clear to everyone that the AGPL is like a silver bullet?Jun 04 22:23
balzacBy refusing to host any AGPL-licensed project, they showed their ideology is not very philosophical and actually clings to a certain kind of license.Jun 04 22:24
zoobab01http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/11/google_bans_aero/Jun 04 22:24
zoobab01they lobbied against AGPL when it was discusssed to be by default in the GPLv3Jun 04 22:25
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balzacThere's always GPLv4...Jun 04 22:26
balzacI think the GPLv3 is well designed. If the license is too aggressive, it could slow adoption. It's fine to let standard business practices catch up with v2 of the license while more innovative businesses embrace v3Jun 04 22:27
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balzacBut it's ultimately not about market share, it's about not compromising computer users' freedomJun 04 22:28
balzac"It is also not okay to host an AGPL covered program on code.google.com [...]Jun 04 22:30
balzacSo sadly, the answer is to remove your project and host somewhere else like SF or Savannah."Jun 04 22:30
balzacChris DiBona, the Open Source Programs Manager at Google on Google Groups:Jun 04 22:30
balzachttp://code.google.com/p/clipperz/Jun 04 22:30
balzacwhat kind of crap is that?Jun 04 22:31
balzacI believe the technical term for that is "chicken shit".Jun 04 22:31
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balzacThat leaves plenty of room for a company like Disruptech to begin gobbling up everyone else's marketshareJun 04 22:32
balzacAggressively pro-FSF, pro-GNU, pro-Free SoftwareJun 04 22:33
balzacI just need an investor to share my visionJun 04 22:33
_Hicham_pro-schestowitzJun 04 22:33
balzacindeedJun 04 22:33
_Hicham_and underline thatJun 04 22:34
balzac_Hicham_: that's not even a questionJun 04 22:34
_Hicham_schestowitz is a best-seller brandJun 04 22:34
_Hicham_just paste schestowitz on ur website, and u r doneJun 04 22:34
_Hicham_all chicks will hurry to ur websiteJun 04 22:36
balzac_Hicham_: don't be a haterJun 04 22:36
balzacRoy, did I mentioned I'm unbanned from #ubuntu?Jun 04 22:37
_Hicham_why balzac?Jun 04 22:37
balzac_Hicham_: they let me back in.Jun 04 22:38
_Hicham_because u r off-topic?Jun 04 22:38
_Hicham_as alwaysJun 04 22:38
balzac_Hicham_: dry your eyes, young man.Jun 04 22:38
balzacThere's only one thing I've said here which has ruffled a few feathers.Jun 04 22:38
balzacI've suggested that some people's rhetoric was too juvenile and wasn't helping Roy's important work.Jun 04 22:39
balzacThat was commendable, because Roy's work is informative and important, not just emotional static.Jun 04 22:39
_Hicham_what do u mean balzac?Jun 04 22:39
balzacI've criticized anyone who I've seen step outside the boundaries of decency when discussing the oppositionJun 04 22:40
balzacincluding self-criticismJun 04 22:40
balzacbut one guy whom I've not seen step outside those boundaries of decency is Roy himselfJun 04 22:40
schestowitzbalzac: good newsJun 04 22:41
schestowitzUbuntu is not very open to community I gatherJun 04 22:41
schestowitzThe whole Mono issue, y'know..?Jun 04 22:41
schestowitzBTW I'm slow to read here cause I do something else ATMJun 04 22:41
_Hicham_Ubuntu has never been open to the communityJun 04 22:41
_Hicham_since it is controlled by CanonicalJun 04 22:42
_Hicham_we know schestowitzJun 04 22:42
MinceRgnJun 04 22:42
balzacWell, they let me back in because I was struggling to support my mother's new Dell mini with Ubuntu on it.Jun 04 22:42
_Hicham_great balzacJun 04 22:43
_Hicham_gn MinceRJun 04 22:43
balzacI let them know I didn't take anything personallyJun 04 22:43
balzacnor had I witheld my personal identityJun 04 22:43
balzacbut I did say, "don't make me email Mr. Shuttleworth"Jun 04 22:44
balzacI don't want to waste his time with this sillinessJun 04 22:44
_Hicham_wow, kinda charismaticJun 04 22:45
balzacthey saw I was not trying to score any points on their Ops, and I agreed to keep focused on technical questions in the support channelJun 04 22:45
_Hicham_I don't know why u always have pbs with OpsJun 04 22:45
balzac_Hicham_: why? it's because IRC ops are traditionally prickly and imperiousJun 04 22:45
balzachaving been using IRC over a decade, I'm accustomed to it, yet still not accepting.Jun 04 22:46
_Hicham_maybe u need to set-up ur own irc channelJun 04 22:46
balzacRoy is quite different with his academic approach.Jun 04 22:46
_Hicham_and see ur democracy over thereJun 04 22:46
_Hicham_Roy is an exceptionJun 04 22:47
balzac_Hicham_: I'm too busy with workJun 04 22:47
balzacthat's why you don't see me around here much, although I enjoy the inside information.Jun 04 22:47
_Hicham_I knowJun 04 22:47
balzacInformation, such as to find out FSDaily.com and FreeSoftwareMagazine.com are being DDOSedJun 04 22:50
balzacLike the people who've targetted BoycottNovell.com, they're using tactics designed to dispirit Dave and Tony.Jun 04 22:51
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balzacThey seek to cause frustrationJun 04 22:51
balzactheir hope is to get Free Software activists so frustrated, that we say un-diplomatic things and thereby isolate ourselvesJun 04 22:52
balzacThat's why they say ridiculous things tabloid crap like "sex-change" about their opponentsJun 04 22:52
yuhongAnother example of "puppet press":Jun 04 22:53
balzacIt's juvenile, intended to degrade the academic credibility of the debateJun 04 22:53
yuhonghttp://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=169450&cid=14122939Jun 04 22:53
yuhong"This rather reminds me of Wall Street's desperate attempts to declare the Google auction IPO a failure, even after Google got more than twice the dollars per share than they would have in an investment bank-priced IPO. If you can't beat them, have your puppet press hang an ugly label on them."Jun 04 22:53
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balzacI'm still looking forward to Google crashing through Microsoft's defensive line, causing a total collapse for M$Jun 04 22:57
balzacGoogle is still better than M$ by a long-shotJun 04 22:57
neonflossgoogle scares me moreJun 04 22:57
neonflossits really powerfulJun 04 22:58
yuhongCertainly.Jun 04 22:58
yuhongNo, Google is not perfect, but there is way too much FUD about it.Jun 04 22:59
yuhongAs well as people overblowing even minor mistakes.Jun 04 22:59
yuhongTake the Google-China issue for example.Jun 04 22:59
balzacI still fear Microsoft moreJun 04 22:59
yuhongIt was way overblownJun 04 22:59
_goblinIn my opinion, the biggest threat to Linux/FOSS is Canonical.Jun 04 22:59
balzacthey're the dream-crushersJun 04 22:59
balzac_goblin: why?Jun 04 23:00
_goblinI said it a while ago...Jun 04 23:00
_goblinForgetting for a minute the mono issue...Jun 04 23:00
_goblinjust look at what happens to a company (any company) that gets market share....Jun 04 23:00
_goblinwe see Microsoft...enough said...Jun 04 23:00
balzac_goblin: that's businessJun 04 23:00
_goblinand now we look at Google which was all nicely recieved when it was a small firm...Jun 04 23:01
balzacbut the GNU licenses have been subverting business as usual for many years nowJun 04 23:01
balzacthat's why they call the GNU licenses "disruptive technology"Jun 04 23:01
yuhongBS!Jun 04 23:01
_goblincan anyone honestly say they would believe Canonical or any firm would behave if it had the market domination?Jun 04 23:01
_goblinForgetting about any allegations against Microsoft itself (and its practices)....Jun 04 23:02
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balzac_goblin: it depends on the degree to which share-holders take away the executive's autonomy to run the business based on brand credibility and long-term strategy vs quarterly resultsJun 04 23:02
AzerthothRoy you awake?Jun 04 23:02
_goblinIs it possible that Vista is maybe more the product of its own popularity rather than a directed effort by Microsoft to release a rubbish OS?Jun 04 23:03
balzacAny business can have the value extracted from it by the same old business practicesJun 04 23:03
_goblinLet me explain....Jun 04 23:03
AzerthothHavent been to your site to look, but the fedora comment is incorrect in regards to dropping monoJun 04 23:03
Azerthothhttp://www.archivum.info/fedora-desktop-list@redhat.com/2009-04/msg00005.htmlJun 04 23:03
_goblinWho mine?Jun 04 23:03
yuhongbalzac: On shareholders, I know what you are talking about!Jun 04 23:04
balzacyuhong: care to elaborate on the "BS"?Jun 04 23:04
balzacyuhong: yeah, it's a very common disease of publicly-traded companies.Jun 04 23:04
balzacI call it "Bureaucratic Sclerosis"Jun 04 23:04
_goblinI think Vista is what it is because Microsoft pandered (or tried to) to every user who wanted a one click fix....Jun 04 23:04
_goblinI think Microsoft tried to be jack of all trades and ended up master of none, thats why we see Vista the way it is.Jun 04 23:05
yuhongAnd unfortunately it has a history dating to the 1980s.Jun 04 23:05
balzacMicrosoft is suffering from the ego-identification of its top executives with archaic software licenses..Jun 04 23:05
_goblinMy fear is, that should mass migration move to one Linux distro, the same would happen....Jun 04 23:05
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ThistleWebactually Windows works perfect for it's customers, end users are just under the PR fed illusion that THEY are the customersJun 04 23:05
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ThistleWebMicrosoft's customers has always been other companiesJun 04 23:06
ThistleWebother corporate interestsJun 04 23:06
balzacFor too long, they've disparaged more advanced, socially-engaging, freedom-respecting licenses, and now Microsoft has painted themselves into a corner, as the poster-boys of archaic software licenses and backwards thinking.Jun 04 23:06
balzacIt's pitifulJun 04 23:06
yuhongBTW, on licenses, this would be a good time to bring up the Open Letter to Hobbyists.Jun 04 23:06
yuhongBy Bill Gates.Jun 04 23:06
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yuhongWhy do you think the Free Software Movement was started in the first place back in 1983 by Stallman.Jun 04 23:07
ThistleWebimagine if DMCA, DRM etc was around when Gates and Jobs were tinkering with hardware to make soemthing workJun 04 23:07
balzacSo long, they laughed at RMS from the decks of yachts, from fancy corporate board rooms, and from private jets, and yet GNU licenses are eating Microsoft's market share like a fire in dried grass.Jun 04 23:07
ThistleWebthey'd have their asses handed to them on a plateJun 04 23:08
balzacyuhong ++Jun 04 23:08
ThistleWebniether Apple or Microsoft would have gotten off the groundJun 04 23:08
balzacBill Gates' "Open Letter to Hobbyists" is the antithesis to Stallman's "GNU Manifesto"Jun 04 23:08
yuhongAlso look at when IBM adopted it's OCO policy back in 1983.Jun 04 23:09
balzacPeople mistakenly pair off Gates vs Torvalds, or even more silly, Gates vs JobsJun 04 23:09
balzacIt's Gates vs RMSJun 04 23:09
balzacGates vs Stallman is the battle of the software heavyweightsJun 04 23:09
yuhongFrom http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=193:Jun 04 23:09
yuhong"I suspect that a few too many teams hitched a ride on Windows Vista to get their stuff pushed out to desktops, like .NET Framework 3.0."Jun 04 23:09
yuhongBy BS, I meant bullshit.Jun 04 23:12
balzacyeah, i figured that muchJun 04 23:12
balzacMicrosoft seems to take very little pride in their softwareJun 04 23:13
yuhongI think it is matter of which business tactics are used.Jun 04 23:13
schestowitz<Azerthoth> is my haterJun 04 23:14
balzacwhat are his software sympathies like?Jun 04 23:17
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balzacI like to profile the partisan hacks in the debate over software freedomJun 04 23:19
schestowitzStalker too.... from #phoronix:Jun 04 23:19
schestowitz<Azerthoth> whois schestowitzJun 04 23:19
schestowitz<Azerthoth> hate it when I drop the leading /Jun 04 23:19
schestowitz<schestowitz> :-)Jun 04 23:19
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schestowitz<Azerthoth> schestowitz Roy, I couldnt for the life of me spell Novell for some reason, had to get the channel spelling from the /whoisJun 04 23:19
balzacwell, whois only reveals information you've chosen to shareJun 04 23:20
yuhongschestwitz: If you dig the IRC logs, you will find my discussion on Linux boot-time rootkits.Jun 04 23:20
yuhongGuess why I discussed this.Jun 04 23:20
balzacRoy, I was more disturbed by what a few questions uncovered with some of the regularsJun 04 23:21
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/23/vista-7-cannot-be-fixed/Jun 04 23:21
balzacI forget which one, but I asked him about his attitudes re: RMS and he went completely unhingedJun 04 23:21
yuhongGuess what was discussed to prevent this.Jun 04 23:22
yuhongTrusted boot, which uses the same tech that can be used for DRM.Jun 04 23:22
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balzacschestowitz: was it DaemonFC who flipped his lid about his misconceptions on RMS' political opinions?Jun 04 23:24
balzacI was like "wow, look at what lurks beneath the debate on software licenses".Jun 04 23:25
balzacA burning hatred for the author of the GPL, based on lots of misinformation...Jun 04 23:26
balzacsometimes your regulars are weirder than your trollsJun 04 23:26
balzacI don't care if they're bitterly angry at RMS or Gates, you can only get so angry about software without becoming a wierdo.Jun 04 23:27
balzacEric Raymond has crazy political opinionsJun 04 23:29
balzacThat gets me thinking about how many "open source" types are driven by right-wing political sympathies against the Free Software and GNU brands by ideology unrelated to the debate on software freedomJun 04 23:31
balzacWhat if they're just mad because RMS said something Chomsky-esque about US imperialism or irresponsible economic policy?Jun 04 23:31
yuhongMore similar BS from http://battellemedia.com/archives/004911.php:Jun 04 23:32
balzacWhat if they're not concerned with freedom for computer users - in that case, they're being intellectually dishonest to pretend they're motivated by different principles on software licensing, when in fact they've a void of principles on that issue and they're covering up motivation based on something else completely.Jun 04 23:32
yuhongMore similar BS from http://battellemedia.com/archives/004911.php:Jun 04 23:32
yuhongIf any lesson is to be drawn, perhaps prematurely, from all this, it's that no company - or two companies - can lead a culture for longer than half a generation. After that, the culture starts to distrust the companies' motives, regardless of whether they are pure or well intentioned."Jun 04 23:33
yuhongYep, that theory is flawed, IMO.Jun 04 23:33
yuhongFirst of all, for real distrust to develop, there must be enough evidence, and MS had plenty.Jun 04 23:36
balzaccompanies, political parties, institutions - all become corrupt in the endJun 04 23:37
yuhongBTW, I generally just call Windows 7 just that or shorten it to 7.Jun 04 23:38
yuhongI don't use "Vista 7" or any name like that.Jun 04 23:38
yuhongSimilarly, I don't use M$ either.Jun 04 23:39
yuhongbalzac: Why?Jun 04 23:39
balzacyuhong: it's human natureJun 04 23:40
ThistleWebflexibility in rules hidden in secrecy will let any organisation get more corrupt the longer it existsJun 04 23:40
balzacI'd say it's based on a concept of "purity" which is not based in realityJun 04 23:40
yuhongWhat do you mean?Jun 04 23:41
balzacwhen people strive to be too virtuous, something bad happensJun 04 23:41
balzacbecause they're not striving for real virtues, just conceptsJun 04 23:41
ThistleWebnot forgetting the rules are made by those in power, who tend to like to keep it that wayJun 04 23:41
yuhongBTW, a link from a comment from the same blog entry I just quoted.Jun 04 23:41
yuhonghttp://culturalengineer.blogspot.com/Jun 04 23:41
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yuhong"Especially where the hierarchical structure erodes proximity."Jun 04 23:46
yuhongAnother reason why out of touch leaders are a bad idea.Jun 04 23:46
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ThistleWebusually by the time you've smarmed enough people to get to the top job you're well into your late working lifeJun 04 23:48
oiaohmhttp://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2009-June/001028.html Multi pointers are on way for next X11 server.Jun 04 23:51
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yuhongBTW, compare bureaucracy with security by obscurity.Jun 04 23:53
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schestowitzHaha. They sabotages the interview by editing... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fRuTlH964&feature=relatedJun 04 23:54
schestowitzbalzac: yes, it was daemonfcJun 04 23:54
yuhongGood thing Google do not rely on bureaucracy.Jun 04 23:57
yuhongBecause it is like security by obscurity.Jun 04 23:57
oiaohmschestowitz: someone people over look.  Intel is also one of the largest arm chip producers.   So intel getting wind river and stopping supporting arm would hit there bottom line.Jun 04 23:58
oiaohmx86 is very much kept alive because MS needs it.Jun 04 23:59

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