IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 5th, 2009

yuhongActually, NT is themselves portable to other arches like Linux, it is just that most NT apps are closed source so it is not easy to recompile.Jun 05 00:01
yuhongWhile most Linux apps are open source so it is easy to recompile them for any new arch.Jun 05 00:02
oiaohmWindows with no applications is basically no use yuhongJun 05 00:03
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oiaohmBesides with Linux you can run x86 applications on anything yuhongJun 05 00:03
oiaohmThat is what qemu allows.Jun 05 00:04
yuhongYep, and most Windows applications are closed source so they are not easy to recompile.Jun 05 00:04
oiaohmWindows does not have a x86 emulation wrapper.Jun 05 00:04
oiaohmSo you are stuck.Jun 05 00:05
yuhongLook at NT for Alpha for example.Jun 05 00:05
oiaohmYep not even MS Office.Jun 05 00:05
oiaohmIt was basically dead man walking.Jun 05 00:06
yuhongWell, actually MS did release Office 4.2 and 97 for Alpha.Jun 05 00:06
yuhongDEC tried to emulate x86 on Alpha with FX!32.Jun 05 00:06
schestowitzHehe. Silly until age 16.. 05 00:06
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yuhongCompaq unfortunately killed Alpha for NT just before Windows 2000 got released.Jun 05 00:08
yuhong 05 00:08
yuhongBTW, how does an organization become corrupt, usually.Jun 05 00:11
yuhongMS also tried to add an x86 emulation layer to Alpha NT as well, see the beta versions of Windows 2000.Jun 05 00:12
yuhongUnfortunately, all that was killed just before 2000 got released thanks to Compaq.Jun 05 00:12
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yuhongBTW, on bureaucracy, which is better: smart people or dumb people "programmed" by bureaucratic procedures?Jun 05 00:14
yuhongThat should be a clue what bureaucracy was originally designed for.Jun 05 00:15
balzacboth smart and dumb people both have their place in societyJun 05 00:16
balzacThe problem arises when people are wrong, whether their dumb or smartJun 05 00:17
yuhongYep.Jun 05 00:17
yuhong"flexibility in rules hidden in secrecy will let any organisation get more corrupt the longer it exists"Jun 05 00:17
balzacs/their/they're/Jun 05 00:17
yuhongAnother reason why smart people are better than dumb people "programmed" by bureaucratic procedures.Jun 05 00:17
balzac"The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions."Jun 05 00:18
balzac --  Oliver Wendell HolmesJun 05 00:18
yuhongYep!Jun 05 00:18
yuhongGood thing Google hires smart people instead of using bureaucracy to control dumb people.Jun 05 00:19
balzacEven Google will eventually become filled with mediocre peopleJun 05 00:20
balzacWill Google's leaders by philosophical enough to cope with mediocrity?Jun 05 00:20
yuhongHow, usually?Jun 05 00:20
balzacsolidarity among mediocre employeesJun 05 00:21
balzacsubduing the more advanced cognitors based on self-interests aligned with other mediocre workersJun 05 00:22
oiaohmGoogle and Sun have been different on internals.Jun 05 00:23
balzacactually, this might be an example of superior social intelligence prevailing over intellectual materialismJun 05 00:23
DaemonFCschestowitz: Microsoft Bing News lists articles by a white supremecy groupJun 05 00:23
oiaohmMajor thing that end with mediocre people is lack of support for people trying new stuff.Jun 05 00:23
oiaohmSo working there slowly becomes a grind.   One the fun goes so does the invent nature.Jun 05 00:24
oiaohmOne/OnceJun 05 00:24
balzacIf you get defeated by a group of mediocre intellects (where intellect is measured by cognitive productivity within a specific area such as programming), you've been out-witted by a conspiracy of those who were more socially-aware.Jun 05 00:26
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balzacThat means you should not make a plan which doesn't include social awareness of those who have the power to scuttle your ambitionsJun 05 00:26
neighborleeschestowitz, I suppose you already know, but just in case I found this googling accidentily ..: 05 00:27
balzacor else it's your intellectual failingJun 05 00:27
neighborleeand for anyone else thats interested there it isJun 05 00:27
balzacyuhong: maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Google will maintain an "intellectual aristocracy" for a whileJun 05 00:28
DaemonFCunfortunately it's been within my lifetime where I did nothing wrong here and if I did the same thing 100 miles north, in Michigan, or 40 miles east in Ohio, I would have been a felon and could have gotten anything from a fine to life in prisonJun 05 00:29
balzacon the other hand, maybe they don't actually have any great intellects, only effective businessmen and good luckJun 05 00:29
balzacwho are the deep thinkers or the noteworthy philosophers of Google?Jun 05 00:29
schestowitzDaemonFC: you favour censorship?Jun 05 00:30
DaemonFCso I just have no use for any religion of hatred or intolerance who wants to turn this country into a Christian version of IranJun 05 00:30
schestowitzneighborlee: yes, it's there indeedJun 05 00:30
neighborleehehJun 05 00:30
schestowitzHe mailed me about this hoping to get BN feedback, so I posted itJun 05 00:30
DaemonFCthey argue that the state has the right to throw me in prison when I've done nothing wrong and nobody else in the world has any reason to careJun 05 00:30
schestowitzYeahJun 05 00:31
schestowitzLet them talkJun 05 00:31
schestowitzAnd be laughed atJun 05 00:31
schestowitzUnless they get the gulliableJun 05 00:31
schestowitz /aJun 05 00:31
DaemonFCthey call themselves "states rights groups" because they're a bunch of cowards and chickenshits that are afraid to tell people who they really areJun 05 00:31
balzacDaemonFC: have you thought about the ridiculous things you wrote about RMS last time we encountered each other here?Jun 05 00:31
DaemonFCand that they really just want religious apartheidJun 05 00:31
oiaohmThe idea of rights is so funny.Jun 05 00:32
schestowitzNow we're attracting the pro-sw pats trolls... 05 00:32
oiaohmSays that people are allows to do things but no requirement to take responisablity for there own actions.Jun 05 00:32
DaemonFCwell the thing is that crazy far-right Christian groups only hold sway in a handful of states, they realize that they can never get the whole country so rasicalized that they can persecute gays and lesbians everywhereJun 05 00:33
DaemonFCso they want to do it state by stateJun 05 00:33
DaemonFC*radicalizedJun 05 00:33
balzacDaemonFC: I think you got carried away when you portrayed RMS as somehow radicalJun 05 00:34
balzacI'm quite opposed to religious extremism and committed to individual civil liberties, as is RMS.Jun 05 00:34
DaemonFCnoJun 05 00:35
oiaohmYet there bible does not support mistreating people.  DaemonFC.  They forget the good sumaritin example from jesus.Jun 05 00:35
DaemonFChe wants to hand this country to those types on a silver platterJun 05 00:35
DaemonFCalong with a bunch of other faux-liberalsJun 05 00:35
balzacDaemonFC: that's rhetorical fluff. Where is the substance?Jun 05 00:35
neighborleeschestowitz, until you get to patent parts..clearly he doesnt know about latest ecma issues ..but oh well his concern is spot on at leat < pun funny though not initially planned LOL >Jun 05 00:35
balzac< DaemonFC> he wants to hand this country to those types on a silver platterJun 05 00:35
balzacthat's drivelJun 05 00:36
DaemonFChe's behind a group that not only hates me, they go way beyond most far-right ChristiansJun 05 00:36
DaemonFCthe people RMS sucks up to would behead gays and lesbiansJun 05 00:36
balzacwhat group?Jun 05 00:36
DaemonFCso he's terribly misguidedJun 05 00:36
DaemonFCthe so-called PalestiniansJun 05 00:36
balzacyou're crazyJun 05 00:36
balzacabsolutely crazyJun 05 00:36
DaemonFCno, those types can never be allowed to gain ground, every time it happens, more people suffer under themJun 05 00:37
DaemonFCit's like RMS and Obama want to hand over Israel to the TalibanJun 05 00:37
balzacyeah, rightJun 05 00:37
yuhongbelzac: MS is a good example. The only reason MS-DOS won was that DR dropped the ball, nothing elseJun 05 00:37
balzacRMS supported Kucinich and then Ralph NaderJun 05 00:37
balzacIt just so happens, they both disagree with Israeli foreign policyJun 05 00:37
DaemonFCHamas and the Taliban are really about the sameJun 05 00:38
balzacDaemonFC: even an original Zionist, former Knesset member is critical of Israeli foreign policyJun 05 00:38
balzacThey really are not the sameJun 05 00:38
DaemonFCand it really frightens me that so called liberals and democrats are siding with undemocratic/theocratic religious fascistsJun 05 00:38
balzacyou're a terribly misinformed person, spreading misinformation like a typhoid maryJun 05 00:38
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balzacyou're easily frightened as well as crazyJun 05 00:39
balzacI'm an atheist and I've never sided with theocratic typesJun 05 00:39
DaemonFCno, I've seen what every Muslim controlled state doesJun 05 00:39
DaemonFCthey behead people like meJun 05 00:39
DaemonFCor hang themJun 05 00:39
balzacbut neither do I side with screechers like you, who flame the most liberal minds among usJun 05 00:40
DaemonFCso forgive me for not having much sympathy for the most evil religion in the worldJun 05 00:40
balzacDaemonFC: Islam and Christianity are both derived from Judaism.Jun 05 00:40
oiaohmLOL yuhongJun 05 00:40
DaemonFCno, the liberals want tolerance for people that would have suicide bombed the geneva conventionJun 05 00:40
oiaohmDR Dos did not drop the ball.Jun 05 00:40
DaemonFCit can't be allowedJun 05 00:40
oiaohmDR Dos was a later clone.Jun 05 00:40
balzacDaemonFC: you fail to keep individual accountability in mind.Jun 05 00:41
yuhongYep, I was talking about CP/M-86 back in 1981.Jun 05 00:41
balzacI have no tolerance at all for terrorists, gay-bashers, woman-haters.Jun 05 00:41
oiaohmMS release windows 3.11 that at first would only work with there version of DosJun 05 00:41
balzacbut I'm smart enough not to tar everyone in a culture with those accusations based on the deeds of a fewJun 05 00:41
yuhongWell, only betas actually had the AARD code enabled.Jun 05 00:41
oiaohmMS backed piracry.Jun 05 00:41
DaemonFCit's not the fewJun 05 00:41
balzacbut you're an irrational screecherJun 05 00:42
oiaohmSo making dos not that profitable.Jun 05 00:42
DaemonFCif it was the few, then their government would not murder innocent peopleJun 05 00:42
DaemonFCIslam is rotten to the very coreJun 05 00:42
oiaohmSince MS was being paid by hardware companies it did not matter if MS dos was pirated.Jun 05 00:42
oiaohmBut to groups like Dr Dos that were not being paid by hardware companies it was a wrecking ball.Jun 05 00:42
balzacDaemonFC: for you to attack RMS because he's not a right-wing screecher like you is outrageous.Jun 05 00:42
yuhongYep, the "Microsoft Tax", but DR worked that way as well.Jun 05 00:42
DaemonFCI'm not right wingJun 05 00:43
DaemonFCI hate IslamJun 05 00:43
yuhongWith CP/M.Jun 05 00:43
oiaohmFor a while yuhongJun 05 00:43
DaemonFCand for good reasonJun 05 00:43
balzacDaemonFC: you're not like me, who writes critical opinions openly under my own name.Jun 05 00:43
yuhongWhat do you mean by "for a while".Jun 05 00:43
balzacI've openly criticized those who called for the death of Salman Rushdie, as well as Danish cartoonists.Jun 05 00:43
oiaohmDR dos and cp/m stuff was always avaible without hardware.Jun 05 00:43
DaemonFCIslam is not worthy of recognition or respect until it decides to no longer be murderous and bloodthirstyJun 05 00:44
DaemonFCthen I don't care what they doJun 05 00:44
oiaohmIf you wanted it yuhongJun 05 00:44
balzacBut you sit there saying "I hate this" and "I hate that" from behind your pseudonymJun 05 00:44
balzacattacking RMS from behind your pseudonymJun 05 00:44
oiaohmThe did not back piracy yuhongJun 05 00:44
balzacyou're a cowardJun 05 00:44
DaemonFCthe Muslims are the most evil group in all of historyJun 05 00:44
yuhongCorrect, actually.Jun 05 00:44
oiaohmthey did not back piracy yuhong.Jun 05 00:44
oiaohmPiracy destroyed them.Jun 05 00:44
DaemonFCsurpassing any other society easilyJun 05 00:45
yuhongMS-DOS was OEM only at first.Jun 05 00:45
oiaohmSo MS become the most dominate.Jun 05 00:45
yuhongPiracy destoryed what?Jun 05 00:45
DaemonFCof course I tolerate Muslims, in the same way you tolerate a bad head cold you can't get rid ofJun 05 00:45
oiaohmWhen both were OEM no piracy cp/m and dos were holding there own against each other.Jun 05 00:45
balzacDaemonFC: I'm not a coward. I'm willing to say openly that the cleric who called for Salman Rushdie's murder is a fool.Jun 05 00:45
balzacI say this as Paul GaskinJun 05 00:45
yuhongIn fact, at first only the code in msdos.sys was licensed to OEMs.Jun 05 00:45
yuhongOEMs have to write IO.SYS.Jun 05 00:46
balzacBut you sit there with your heated rhetoric, lashing out at ideological opponents and friends alike, from behind a pseudonym.Jun 05 00:46
balzacDaring to attack a venerable liberal and social visionary, RMS from behind your pseudonymJun 05 00:46
DaemonFCit's not rhetoricJun 05 00:46
yuhongIt was not until PC compatibles became common that MS provided a packaged version to DOS to OEMs, that had io.sys.Jun 05 00:46
DaemonFCI know what those people doJun 05 00:46
balzacyou're a foolJun 05 00:46
yuhongAnd not until DOS 5.0 that MS began to sell DOS in retail.Jun 05 00:47
DaemonFCthe only Iranians I sympathize with are the ones that are stuck there and at risk of being murderedJun 05 00:47
balzacDaemonFC: you're not a real liberal, you're a screecherJun 05 00:47
DaemonFClike those gay teenagersJun 05 00:47
oiaohmAt the short  time after MS provided generic io.sys.  Bill Gates come out and said piracy was good for the IT world.Jun 05 00:47
yuhongAnd then only the upgrade version, retail full version had to wait until 6.0.Jun 05 00:47
oiaohmMajor software piracy leads back to MS.Jun 05 00:48
oiaohmIt was very effective for MS.Jun 05 00:48
DaemonFCthe good part of Communism was where it outlawed religionJun 05 00:48
balzacPresident Obama just named June "Gay Pride Month"Jun 05 00:48
balzacwere you aware of that DaemonFC ?Jun 05 00:48
DaemonFCfuck him, he'll take all the free publicityJun 05 00:48
DaemonFCthen do nothing of substanceJun 05 00:48
yuhongI figured the trick now.Jun 05 00:48
balzache doesn't want to have sex with youJun 05 00:49
balzacDaemonFC: that has substanceJun 05 00:49
yuhongIt has to do with piracy and lock-in.Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFCno, he's a politician, he'll panderJun 05 00:49
DaemonFCbut in the end it's how many votes it costs him to help usJun 05 00:49
DaemonFCso he'll throw us under the bus and sign laws to hurt usJun 05 00:49
DaemonFClike Clinton did with DOMAJun 05 00:49
balzacDaemonFC: better to be a politician like Obama than a screeching coward attacking public names from behind an IRC nick.Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFCI say again, Clinton signed DOMAJun 05 00:50
oiaohmExactly yuhong MS was not selling versions of dos before 5.0 because they were depending on pirary to fill the gaps.Jun 05 00:50
oiaohmSo effectively destroying there competition with a zero priced product yuhong.Jun 05 00:50
DaemonFCthe Democrats are giving us "morale support" while at the same time joining the Republicans in doing us actual tangible harmJun 05 00:50
DaemonFCBush was better for the gay rights movement than Obama or ClintonJun 05 00:51
oiaohmyuhong: MS operations still try to do the same things today.Jun 05 00:51
DaemonFCbecause he at least didn't get the chance to harm usJun 05 00:51
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 00:51
balzacsee, you're right-wingJun 05 00:51
DaemonFCnoJun 05 00:51
DaemonFCthe Democrats and Republicans are Coke and PepsiJun 05 00:51
balzacBush was worseJun 05 00:51
DaemonFCtwo versions of the same thingJun 05 00:51
yuhongOn DR-DOS, it began with DR having to write a DOS compatiblity layer on top of CCP/M-86.Jun 05 00:51
yuhongWhich came from MP/M and MP/M-86, BTW.Jun 05 00:52
DaemonFCI doubt John McCain would have been any better or worse than ObamaJun 05 00:52
balzache destabilized the middle east, leading to lots of murders of all kinds of vulnerable minorities, including gaysJun 05 00:52
oiaohmYep basically to create competition yuhong.Jun 05 00:52
DaemonFCObama is a sellout to big business  and a false friend of the gay/lesbian communityJun 05 00:52
DaemonFCjust because McCain was bad does not automatically make Obama betterJun 05 00:53
oiaohmDr-dos did all the right things and basically got screwed.Jun 05 00:53
balzacDaemonFC: you're an angstivistJun 05 00:53
DaemonFCObama is just another RepublicratJun 05 00:53
DaemonFCin a long long lineJun 05 00:53
balzacOne good artist can do a thousand times more than 1000 angstivistsJun 05 00:53
DaemonFChe is an artistJun 05 00:54
DaemonFCa bullshit artistJun 05 00:54
DaemonFCit takes skill to fuck so many people over and convince them all to like youJun 05 00:54
balzacFreddie Mercury's song plays in Yankee StadiumJun 05 00:54
yuhongEarly versions of DR-DOS was basically a single user version of what was by then called Concurrent DOS with CP/M-86 compatiblity removed.Jun 05 00:54
DaemonFCBush was not charismatic, that's the only real differenceJun 05 00:54
balzacyour lonely angstivist screeching is lost into the void, irrelevantJun 05 00:55
DaemonFCObama came in and before his 2nd full month in office, he increased the national debt by over 33%Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFChow is this better?Jun 05 00:55
oiaohmyuhong: Remember MSDOS is QDOS what is basically a dirty clone of CP/M-86Jun 05 00:55
balzacright wing talking pointJun 05 00:55
DaemonFCthe stimulus has had no effect at all on the economyJun 05 00:55
DaemonFCit contained a cash handout for everyone on Social SecurityJun 05 00:55
yuhongYep, MS bought it from SCP.Jun 05 00:55
balzacDaemonFC: just go and join the Republican party and embrace proprietary software, please.Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFCbecause giving people free money  worked for Bush in 2008 right?Jun 05 00:55
oiaohmyuhong: histroy has repeated.   MS did to CP/M-86 that Linux did to Unix.Jun 05 00:56
DaemonFCno? it didn't?Jun 05 00:56
DaemonFCObama is operating off the same playbooks as Bush and ClintonJun 05 00:56
DaemonFCthe only thing that ever changes is the lip serviceJun 05 00:56
schestowitzThe pro-sw pats lobbying is spamming us now: 05 00:56
oiaohmCP/M-86 was a nice OS for its day.Jun 05 00:57
balzacDaemonFC: screeching false accusations from behind anonymity is without merit.Jun 05 00:57
DaemonFCI'd really just be happy if Obama did one of two things Balzac 1. Help those he claims to support. or 2. At least get the hell out of the way and not make it worseJun 05 00:57
balzacDaemonFC: out of the way of a coward who won't even put his own name to his words?Jun 05 00:58
DaemonFCall I'm asking is that he put up or shut upJun 05 00:58
balzacyou put up or shut upJun 05 00:58
balzacI'd ban you if I were an opJun 05 00:58
DaemonFCObama is lip service to the gay communityJun 05 00:58
balzacnopeJun 05 00:58
DaemonFCand he will probably not be getting my vote in 2012 unless he starts putting some action to back up his promisesJun 05 00:58
balzacyou wish he gave you 'lip-service'Jun 05 00:59
balzacbut instead, June is "Gay Pride Month"Jun 05 00:59
DaemonFCI voted for him in 2008 because what he was saying sounded goodJun 05 00:59
balzacnot a week, but a whole month like "Black History Month"Jun 05 00:59
DaemonFCbut it's obvious now he's a poserJun 05 00:59
balzacnope, it's not obvious at allJun 05 00:59
balzacThere's plenty of time yet for more changesJun 05 01:00
balzacWhat about torture?Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFChe better get with the program because there's a lot of people that understand that he's kissing ass with our enembies and not fullsilling any of his campaign promisesJun 05 01:00
DaemonFCto his core supportersJun 05 01:00
DaemonFCincluding myselfJun 05 01:00
balzac"our enemies"Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFC*enemiesJun 05 01:00
balzacyour enemies are not necessarily President Obama's enemies, and not mine eitherJun 05 01:00
DaemonFCyes, the Taliban and Hamas, terrorist organizations that want the death of all IsraelisJun 05 01:01
balzacI'm an atheist who supports 100% respect for individual civil liberties of gays as well as everyone elseJun 05 01:01
DaemonFCand anyone they percieve as non muslim or "Less" muslimJun 05 01:01
balzacbut you go and smear the names of great and historical men, while not putting your own name on itJun 05 01:01
yuhongWhat is interesting is that even Alpha NT had support for 16-bit Windows and DOS apps.Jun 05 01:02
DaemonFC"I hereby declare Gay Rights Month while I work to maintain the status quo, while the army is kicking out 2,5000 of them per month"Jun 05 01:02
DaemonFCyay Obama!Jun 05 01:02
DaemonFC*2,500Jun 05 01:02
balzacI'd have taken a clearer stance than Obama on just about every issue, but I didn't get elected.Jun 05 01:02
balzacI'm not going to win even if I run for City Council, much less president.Jun 05 01:03
DaemonFChe's like Bill Clinton and Al Gore, who slashed funding for NASA but showed up for all the photo opsJun 05 01:03
DaemonFCthat's how Obama is regarding gay rightsJun 05 01:03
balzacDaemonFC: your turd friend Bush has made things very difficult.Jun 05 01:03
balzacyou're not representing gay people, you're representing gay angstivists who hide behind pseudonymsJun 05 01:03
balzacBarney Frank is out and very publicJun 05 01:04
balzache is representing, not you.Jun 05 01:04
balzacAlso, activists can't claim to be more important than those who are just openly gay, yet mind their own business.Jun 05 01:05
DaemonFCbalzac: Name one tangible benefit Obama has given to the gay communityJun 05 01:05
DaemonFCbarring lip serviceJun 05 01:05
DaemonFCTelol me why he's more of an asset than George W. BushJun 05 01:06
DaemonFC*tellJun 05 01:06
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DaemonFCin this regardJun 05 01:06
DaemonFCgo aheadJun 05 01:06
DaemonFCanythingJun 05 01:06
balzacname one tangible thing he's done for any constituency, except for expell the fear and restore confidence in governmentJun 05 01:06
balzache's dissappointing everyone so farJun 05 01:06
DaemonFChas he stopped Don't Ask Don't Tell? Or did that guy that came out on national TV this month NOT just get kicked out of the army?Jun 05 01:06
DaemonFCplease tell me where that was all over the news and I jsut dreamed it upJun 05 01:07
balzacisrael, palestine, christian fundies, gays, women, etc.Jun 05 01:07
balzacwho has not yet been disappointed?Jun 05 01:07
mtnd3whi allJun 05 01:07
DaemonFCChristian fundies would like him for being totally useless to gay rights groupsJun 05 01:07
DaemonFCexcept he kisses the Taliban's collective assJun 05 01:07
DaemonFCObama is the albatross/white elephant of gay rights groupsJun 05 01:08
DaemonFCtrue politician playing both sides down the middleJun 05 01:09
balzacDaemonFC: this is #boycottnovell, not #boycott-everyone-who-isnt-a-gay-anti-palestine-republicanJun 05 01:10
DaemonFCI am not a RepublicanJun 05 01:10
balzacpretty close, I'd sayJun 05 01:10
balzacI'd rather you wereJun 05 01:11
DaemonFCWhy? Because the Democrats are almost as disgusting?Jun 05 01:11
DaemonFCBecause you are fooling yourself if you think they aren't?Jun 05 01:11
balzacTo the extent they coddle religious funamentalists, they're both revoltingJun 05 01:11
DaemonFCmy point exactlyJun 05 01:12
DaemonFCglad you agreeJun 05 01:12
balzacbut some people are screeching angstivists, while others are enduring, non-compromising life-stylistsJun 05 01:12
DaemonFCI'll vote for the candidateJun 05 01:12
DaemonFCI don't consider myself loyal to either partyJun 05 01:13
balzacI support your individual civil liberties 100% and I'm straight, but that's because I'm intellectually honest and a non-superstitious atheist.Jun 05 01:13
balzacWell, I've seen you lash out at a true liberal, completely misrepresenting his views.Jun 05 01:13
balzactwo, reallyJun 05 01:13
neighborleeI m sorry but I dont see obama as coddling anyone or anything..he's  very clear on h is objectives..he is trying his best to be a uniter, not a dividerJun 05 01:13
balzacRMS is a proven liberal, President Obama is looking pretty good tooJun 05 01:13
DaemonFCI've voted for some Republicansm not many but a fewJun 05 01:13
balzacand your attacks on RMS have been without meritJun 05 01:14
balzacI've never voted for RepublicanJun 05 01:14
balzacWe're different that wayJun 05 01:14
DaemonFCI voted for Senator Lugar after he said he was not going to vote for that constitutional marriage discrimination amendmentJun 05 01:14
DaemonFCwell, Democrats in Congress have typically only been good for one thingJun 05 01:15
balzacDaemonFC: you could do a lot more than attack good liberals from behind a pseudonymJun 05 01:15
DaemonFCstalling for time while we work our way through the courtsJun 05 01:15
DaemonFCwell, I'm just not all that sure about Obama for a number of alarming things he's doneJun 05 01:16
neighborleelike whatJun 05 01:16
DaemonFC"palling around" with RIAA/MPAAJun 05 01:16
balzacthat's because you're like chicken-little, screeching about the sky fallingJun 05 01:16
DaemonFCappointing Microsoft executives to his cabinetJun 05 01:17
neighborleein what capacityJun 05 01:17
neighborleebut i agree, likely that person is pure evil.Jun 05 01:17
DaemonFCno, he really has said and done a lot of things that are questionable at best and a downright conflict of interest at their worstJun 05 01:17
balzacDaemonFC: more information, less opinion, pleaseJun 05 01:18
DaemonFClike having Joe Biden tell the MPAA, promise them, that they "will like" his new "Copyright Czar"Jun 05 01:18
DaemonFCat an MPAA luncheon that Biden attendedJun 05 01:18
*neighborlee hopes his sarcasm was evident..I dont believe M$ is evil, just misdirected..Jun 05 01:18
DaemonFCMicrosoft is no more or less intrinsically evil than any company that wants to make moneyJun 05 01:19
DaemonFCthe problem is their size and resourcesJun 05 01:19
neighborleewell welcome to or not..its our CURRENT system..Jun 05 01:19
DaemonFCand it's not good when they have the ear of the presidentJun 05 01:19
oiaohmschestowitz:  read my answer there to the patent problem.  Patent problem is through the complete patent system.Jun 05 01:19
balzacDaemonFC: what do you think of "Perez Hilton" outing other gays, who weren't even really in the closet?Jun 05 01:19
oiaohmDaemonFC: MS is not the biggest companies out there.Jun 05 01:20
DaemonFCnot helpfulJun 05 01:20
oiaohmSo there size and resources is not a factor.Jun 05 01:20
oiaohmthere are others with more who treat market better.Jun 05 01:20
DaemonFCby becoming that kind of a figure Perez Hilton has become kind of like our very own Ann CoulterJun 05 01:20
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, just seen itJun 05 01:20
schestowitzI replied tooJun 05 01:20
DaemonFCa counterproductive embarassmentJun 05 01:20
DaemonFCwho is occasionally funny to gawk atJun 05 01:20
neighborleeDaemonFC,hey..companies have the right to make money..and our right to advance alternatives choice and M$ knows is losing ground..c'est la vie.Jun 05 01:21
balzacwell, at least he's putting his own name on it.Jun 05 01:21
oiaohmLot of what MS does is technically illegal and the regulators just run a blind eye to it.Jun 05 01:21
neighborleeann coulter=hate..real shame.Jun 05 01:21
DaemonFCWell, as long as you have a right to refuse it and a reasonable expectation of access to a competing productJun 05 01:21
balzacyeah, that's probably not fair to say of Perez HiltonJun 05 01:21
DaemonFCI don't see why they can't sell itJun 05 01:22
balzacAnne Coulter is a real sickiJun 05 01:22
oiaohmIf I decided to drop 1 million tones of food on the USA poor to make my product popular I would be killed by USA law.Jun 05 01:22
balzacwhat has Perez Hilton said to equal the depravity of Anne Coulter?Jun 05 01:22
DaemonFCof course that's in the ideal situationJun 05 01:22
oiaohmMS walks up and does the software equal.   Nothing happens DaemonFC.Jun 05 01:22
balzacI think you're probably exaggerating again, DaemonFCJun 05 01:22
oiaohmWe have regulators asleep.Jun 05 01:22
DaemonFCif MS Office and OpenOffice both had the same format support and were competing strictly on merit and user preference, for exampleJun 05 01:22
DaemonFCthe problem of course is that this is not what is happeningJun 05 01:23
balzacPerez Hilton is quite annoying, but probably much more responsible in how he treats others reputations than you are.Jun 05 01:23
neighborleeDaemonFC, yes its startingJun 05 01:23
balzacwoops, you failed to answerJun 05 01:23
balzacwhat has Perez Hilton said to equal the depravity of Anne Coulter?Jun 05 01:23
DaemonFCwell, calling attention to other peoples sexuality in a homophobic cultureJun 05 01:23
oiaohmKOffice and Openoffice will be facing each other on there merits.Jun 05 01:23
DaemonFCthat's pretty patheticJun 05 01:24
oiaohmSo there will be compeition even if MS does not join.Jun 05 01:24
neighborleeDaemonFC, odt support IN wordpad, IN windows 7Jun 05 01:24
oiaohmIts why OpenOffice has had to get faster.Jun 05 01:24
balzacthat's not nearly as outrageous as Anne Coulter's worst sayingsJun 05 01:24
neighborleebalzac, agreed,,she is really nastyJun 05 01:24
balzacAnne Coulter is one of the people who make life dangerous for gays among other minoritiesJun 05 01:24
DaemonFCyes, but Ann Coulter's damage is mitigated by the sheer stupidity of what she saysJun 05 01:24
DaemonFCand she has an adam's appleJun 05 01:24
oiaohmIts like the Gnome vs KDE is grew a lot of development for the problems it caused.Jun 05 01:24
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 01:24
neighborleebalzac, not realllyJun 05 01:24
balzac"Perez Hilton" was being an irresponsible prick, but he's no Anne Coulter. He's just a noisy angstivist, but one who puts his own name on it.Jun 05 01:25
neighborleebalzac, its  not anything SHE does..its the mood of those around her..that stoop to her level and agree WITH her....thats how things happen..people stress their opnions when they know there is an 'audience'Jun 05 01:25
neighborleeits somettimes takes ages,,years for certain rights to come online..because the 'mood' of the populus is against it...witch trials anyone ? ;))Jun 05 01:26
balzacLike the right to have a divorceJun 05 01:27
neighborleethat tooJun 05 01:27
balzacor a child out of wedlockJun 05 01:27
balzacor more than one spouseJun 05 01:27
neighborleewell ick to that one anywayJun 05 01:27
balzacIt is ironic to see gays and mormons at each others' throatsJun 05 01:27
neighborleeto each his own..I never have understgood how multiple spouses coud end in anything but bitterness and   jealousyJun 05 01:27
neighborleebalzac, true thatJun 05 01:28
balzacto each his ownJun 05 01:28
DaemonFCYeah, they came to my doorJun 05 01:28
balzacmarraige rights for gays and marraige rights for mormons are very similarJun 05 01:28
DaemonFCI told them that they had until I got back to leave, before I shot them as intruders on my propertyJun 05 01:28
neighborleewell I truly believe in ,,do as thou will, thou it harm noneJun 05 01:28
balzacboth are not accepted by the mainstream, both are vying for the right to marry, yet critical of the otherJun 05 01:28
neighborleemormons can't marry, what was that ? ;0--Jun 05 01:29
balzacDaemonFC: that's pretty ugly of you.Jun 05 01:29
DaemonFCI've had about all I'm going to take of themJun 05 01:29
DaemonFCI'm not going to have them bring it to me in personJun 05 01:30
oiaohmschestowitz: should really do a artical on why the complete patent system is busted.Jun 05 01:30
balzacwell, i hope it was an empty threat, because shooting "intruders" who have not brought weapons, who've announced their presence in broad daylight, and who hoped to pursuade you with a conversation would be a criminal act.Jun 05 01:30
balzacDaemonFC: are you against their right to marry?Jun 05 01:31
schestowitzWhat Does Microsoft Want From Spain? < >Jun 05 01:31
DaemonFCI'm against their entire organizationJun 05 01:31
schestowitzoiaohm: many articles existJun 05 01:31
balzacDaemonFC: are you against their right to marry?Jun 05 01:31
schestowitzI will do another, thanksJun 05 01:31
balzacsimple questionJun 05 01:31
DaemonFCin what sense?Jun 05 01:31
DaemonFCIn that they deny to others what they demand for themselves?Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFCin that case yes I do opposer their right to marryJun 05 01:32
DaemonFCuntil such time as I have the same rightJun 05 01:32
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 01:32
balzacDaemonFC: are you against their right to marry? (very simple question. I did not attach your conditional.)Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC*opposeJun 05 01:32
balzacdirect, simple question.Jun 05 01:32
balzacno conditional.Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFCuntil such time as everyone has the rightJun 05 01:32
DaemonFCyesJun 05 01:32
balzacyou sound like a partisan in the I/P disputeJun 05 01:33
DaemonFCotherwise we just have a caste systemJun 05 01:33
balzacsee, mutually-assured oppressionJun 05 01:33
balzacDaemonFC: you should support their right to marry unconditionallyJun 05 01:33
neighborleeDaemonFC, well at least thats honest..I commend you for that position..similar to  brad pit etalJun 05 01:33
balzacand they should support your right to marry, unconditionallyJun 05 01:33
balzacbut you're a very subjective typeJun 05 01:33
DaemonFCthen the fucking Scientologists came to my door and asked if I was depressedJun 05 01:34
neighborleehe's ,,just frustrated ;)Jun 05 01:34
balzacyou suffer a kind of myopiaJun 05 01:34
DaemonFCI told them I was going to put a depression in their skulls ifthey didn't get the hell outJun 05 01:34
balzacDaemonFC: once again, very uglyJun 05 01:34
balzacthere's a common denominator here - overt hostilityJun 05 01:35
neighborleehowever having said that..yes we cant' deny rights to those due to our own circumstances..we know our day will come, until then we dont want to lower ourselves into the sewer, along with them.Jun 05 01:35
balzacI've sat down at a scientologists table in a subway station in NYC and amused myselfJun 05 01:35
balzacI held the conductors of their "e-meter"Jun 05 01:35
neighborleeDaemonFC, we lift ourselves up in compassion, and before you know it,  everyone feels similarly...doesnt' hurt to fight for our rights though maintaing civil discourse never hoit :)) < no one perfect though>Jun 05 01:35
balzacand it was amusing to meJun 05 01:35
neighborlee:)Jun 05 01:36
balzacbut I didn't get foul-tempered, nor did I compromise even a little on my beliefs.Jun 05 01:36
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DaemonFCScientology is a cult that basically exists to extract all of its victims moneyJun 05 01:36
DaemonFCthen throw them awayJun 05 01:37
DaemonFCor turn them into slave laborersJun 05 01:37
balzacnot unlike some of the older, larger religionsJun 05 01:37
balzacgee, sounds like a very familiar recipeJun 05 01:37
DaemonFCno, the others typically bleed you for a small recurring amountJun 05 01:37
DaemonFCthe Scientologists are more smash and grabJun 05 01:37
balzacwell, they don't have the same "economy of scale" that the more established "religions" enjoyJun 05 01:38
balzacgive them time and they'll take less from a lot more peopleJun 05 01:38
balzacbut I'd rather see people be rationalJun 05 01:38
ThistleWebthe longer the scam, the more people will see the flaws and start to think about themJun 05 01:38
DaemonFCThe German government investigated Windows 2000 for a possible backdoorJun 05 01:40
DaemonFCafter findout out that the Scientologists wrote Defrag.exeJun 05 01:40
DaemonFC*finding outJun 05 01:40
ThistleWebDaemonFC, only one?Jun 05 01:40
DaemonFCThe Germans have the good sense to not do any business with dangerous cultsJun 05 01:41
balzacexcept for the ones over 1000 years old, perhaps?Jun 05 01:41
balzacsuddenly, dangerous cults are ok after 1000 years of growth and 1,000,000,000 faithfulJun 05 01:41
balzacas if McDonalds is suddenly healthy after 1B servedJun 05 01:42
ThistleWebMcDonalds may be healthy but I question the health of their loyal customersJun 05 01:42
balzacDaemonFC: seems like you prefer to keep the focus of your angstivism within a myopic scope, or else you'd be forced to become more philosophical about things.Jun 05 01:43
balzacnone of the problems which frustrate you the most will be solved within your lifetimeJun 05 01:45
balzacThat is one of the traits of an angstivist - spinning your wheels furiously about things which aren't likely to changeJun 05 01:46
balzacat least you should enjoy your life's work if it's going to be entirely existential in its natureJun 05 01:47
mtnd3wdo you guys think as GNU/Linux grows, there will be a lot of forces trying to pull it apart?Jun 05 01:47
balzacthat means have a good moodJun 05 01:47
neighborleemtnd3w, you cant' pull apart a house with a good foundationJun 05 01:47
neighborleeymmvJun 05 01:47
balzacmtnd3w: yesJun 05 01:47
balzacthere already are, and it is loosely knit togetherJun 05 01:48
ThistleWebmtnd3w, there already are, Novell / Microsoft & Mono is only a startJun 05 01:48
mtnd3wneighborlee: i hope notJun 05 01:48
balzacalso there is Android, (Linux without GNU)Jun 05 01:48
mtnd3wThistleWeb: yes, thats one of the signs it seems likeJun 05 01:48
ThistleWebglad to see the FAT / TomTom suit causing more distros to be sceptical about MonoJun 05 01:48
neighborleemtnd3w, :)but that foundation takes work..and sometimes reminders from the community whats important, and whyJun 05 01:48
neighborleeThistleWeb, dittoJun 05 01:49
DaemonFCpull it apart? There's hundreds of different distros alreadyJun 05 01:49
DaemonFCI'd say stupid and pointless forks are a big problemJun 05 01:49
neighborleeDaemonFC, yes and in that pulls itself apart...Jun 05 01:49
neighborleeIve said that for years--Jun 05 01:49
neighborleeas have many othersJun 05 01:49
ThistleWebif peeps want it, then cool but like mp3 codecs, legally its safer to not ship them and give an option to get them post install if the user wants themJun 05 01:50
DaemonFCno matter what you choose, there's always a few packages that are only made for the other oneJun 05 01:50
oiaohmLinux is already ripped into bits mtnd3wJun 05 01:50
neighborleeThistleWeb, totally agreed..ogg is preferrable..but mp3 installer if need be yesJun 05 01:50
DaemonFCbut that's why a lot of people are unwillingly being coerced into using UbuntuJun 05 01:50
DaemonFCif there's going to be a package made for one distro, it'll be theirsJun 05 01:51
oiaohmThere are two forces in the Open Source world.  The merging force and the dividing force.Jun 05 01:51
mtnd3woiaohm: i came across the thought after reading the DRM kernel article posted hereJun 05 01:51
oiaohmOnce divided so far maintaining becomes too hard.Jun 05 01:51
oiaohmSo merging force appears.Jun 05 01:51
neighborleeDaemonFC, there are heroes amoungst us..though they dont want the label, its true nonetheless..we can each play a role in freedom, its our choice.Jun 05 01:51
oiaohmCycle of dividing and merging repeats over and over again in the Open source world.Jun 05 01:52
mtnd3wneighborlee: this is why understanding free software is very important i guessJun 05 01:52
neighborleeit is yesJun 05 01:52
ThistleWeba large part of the issue is that for ages, people haven't known anything other than windowsJun 05 01:52
oiaohmTaking on open standards is one of the major merging forces.Jun 05 01:52
neighborleeoiaohm, too much so...6months release cycle is way too often imhoJun 05 01:52
ThistleWebthe more time goes by, the more people see there ARE other PCsJun 05 01:52
neighborleeoiaohm, and fedora being willling to ' wait' until it 'ready' is a goood indicator maybe they finally get thatJun 05 01:53
ThistleWebthat dent is something microsoft dont want to growJun 05 01:53
ThistleWebbut it will, specially in netbooksJun 05 01:53
neighborleeyo u can NOT have SOLID, QA after just 6 lousy months..its not vialbeJun 05 01:53
neighborleeviableJun 05 01:53
DaemonFCFedora has always been fairly uncaring as to whether it's "ready"Jun 05 01:53
neighborleemore so latleyJun 05 01:53
DaemonFCmaybe the sudden influx of users have changed themJun 05 01:53
oiaohmLinux kernel maintains solid QA on a 3 month cycle.   Design says how fast you can have releases and keep quality.Jun 05 01:54
ThistleWebI've thought for a while that 6mth is a tad short, perhaps the quality would be better on 8mthJun 05 01:54
ThistleWeb9mth*Jun 05 01:54
neighborleenot unlike blizzard entertainment..maybe fedoa will b ecome better and better willing to wait until its really 'ready' ;))Jun 05 01:54
oiaohmBiggest limit to solid QA is the lack of means in distributions to install more than 1 version of a program.Jun 05 01:54
ThistleWebbut then, if you want a solid, stable, well tested distro you have Debian or CentOSJun 05 01:54
oiaohmSo users can try beta versions and report problems without having everything beta.Jun 05 01:55
neighborleeThistleWeb, at leatJun 05 01:55
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ThistleWebyepJun 05 01:55
neighborleeI mean, it doessn't hurt windows does it, that it releases ONCE every few years ?Jun 05 01:55
oiaohmBoth are you are looking at the problem wrong.Jun 05 01:55
ThistleWebchoice is one of the values of FOSSJun 05 01:55
oiaohmDebian runs into trouble with items like clamav.Jun 05 01:55
neighborleevista not withstanding LOLJun 05 01:55
DaemonFCthe Iranian election is refreshingly differentJun 05 01:55
oiaohmThey are many things for secuirty you must update.Jun 05 01:55
DaemonFCAhmadinejad may get replaced with a much more moderate candidateJun 05 01:56
oiaohmSo you do need a fast QA system.Jun 05 01:56
oiaohmMS is really doing releases more than once every few years.Jun 05 01:56
neighborleeif that is so true.explain why linux releases have been SO horribleJun 05 01:56
neighborleeall of themJun 05 01:56
neighborleeubuntu, mandriva, fedora..all of them shabbyJun 05 01:56
oiaohmThe problem is in packaging.Jun 05 01:56
oiaohmNot the release time.Jun 05 01:57
neighborleeelaborate pleaseJun 05 01:57
oiaohmIf you could stay with older versions of programs like old version of X11 that just happend to work.  yet have everything else new.  That would prevent what happen with ubuntu and intel cards.Jun 05 01:57
ThistleWebone big difference I see with Windows compared to FOSS or Linux is that when someone says "the new version has .... feature, just upgrade" in Windows that means you need to shell out more cash, so the advice could be a sales drone pretending to be support. In FOSS / Linux it tends to be free to upgradeJun 05 01:58
neighborleenasty intel yes in ubuntu...that was horridJun 05 01:58
oiaohmBecause some cards worked with the old X11 and some worked with the new.Jun 05 01:58
oiaohmSo the new distrobution hurt like hell.Jun 05 01:58
oiaohmThere are times where just have 1 package of something is not suitable.Jun 05 01:58
neighborleeThistleWeb, yes..foss is truly amazing in that its the great e qualizerJun 05 01:58
oiaohmAllowing multiable allows rolling QAJun 05 01:58
neighborleeoiaohm, how was that missed though ?Jun 05 01:59
ThistleWebproprietary software tends to only give new features if it can monetise them, or hold them back as carrots to buy the new versionJun 05 01:59
neighborleeoiaohm, blame on shoddy qa, or a package where they just forgot to include all cards ,,or whatJun 05 01:59
neighborleeboth ?Jun 05 01:59
oiaohmMost update sysems in distributions are designed to update to latest.Jun 05 01:59
oiaohmEven when it not suitable.Jun 05 01:59
neighborleeof courseJun 05 02:00
oiaohmNeither X11 server was exactly shoddy neighborlee.Jun 05 02:00
neighborleewell either way the user sufferedJun 05 02:00
neighborleeas you hear it time and time again, on new linux releasesJun 05 02:00
ThistleWebproprietary software also tends to be built to make money, which means feature bloat as carrots to get you to buy something you already haveJun 05 02:00
oiaohmUsers should not have suffered.Jun 05 02:00
neighborleeand,,linux imho deserves better..people deseve betterJun 05 02:00
oiaohmwould it been a issue if users could have chosen to use the old version when the new version did not work for them.Jun 05 02:01
neighborleethe point is..Jun 05 02:01
oiaohmEven with the best QA you are not going to find every bug.Jun 05 02:01
neighborleethe pereption,,that linux doesn't workJun 05 02:01
neighborleeregardless of how it got there..Jun 05 02:01
oiaohmIts just impossiable.Jun 05 02:01
oiaohmSo what is the next best thing.Jun 05 02:02
yuhongFrom 05 02:02
yuhong"That business method and software patents should have a much shorter lifespan than the current 17 years -- I would propose 3 to 5 years. "Jun 05 02:02
oiaohmHave a plan b for when a problem slips past.Jun 05 02:02
neighborleeoiaohm, yes..some clever script to sense such things and  fallback()Jun 05 02:02
oiaohmThat is where distribution are failing people neighborlee.   There is no plan b.Jun 05 02:02
oiaohmTake MS with service packs.Jun 05 02:02
neighborleeoiaohm, mandriva had..something sorta similar..not perfect but it did effectively workJun 05 02:03
schestowitzWhat the Corrosive Relationship Between Microsoft and Cisco Means to GNU/Linux < >Jun 05 02:03
schestowitzoiaohm will like itJun 05 02:03
oiaohmThere is a way to uninstall a service pack if it really breaks it.Jun 05 02:03
neighborleeoiaohm, agreed,,,about no plan BJun 05 02:03
neighborleeoverall anywayJun 05 02:03
oiaohmSo you can drop back.Jun 05 02:03
neighborleeexactlyJun 05 02:03
oiaohmIf you have to.Jun 05 02:03
neighborleerestore pointsJun 05 02:03
oiaohmPeople are looking in the wrong place.Jun 05 02:03
oiaohmThey are saying QA is failing.Jun 05 02:03
yuhongThe 1-click patent reexam was at least 7 years after the patent was granted, probably more.Jun 05 02:03
oiaohmIts not.Jun 05 02:03
oiaohmQA is working as good as QA does.Jun 05 02:03
neighborleeyes and no.I cant completey agreeJun 05 02:04
neighborleesometimes..they is just TOO much choice..Jun 05 02:04
neighborleeit confuses peopleJun 05 02:04
oiaohmQA will always fail.Jun 05 02:04
yuhong 05 02:04
oiaohmYou can bet on it.Jun 05 02:04
neighborleeoiaohm, at some point,it certainy willl, atm anyway :)Jun 05 02:04
yuhongAnyone paying attension.Jun 05 02:04
neighborleethey/thereJun 05 02:04
yuhongIf this reform was done, the reexam would not have existed.Jun 05 02:05
yuhongI was meaning to mention it for a while.Jun 05 02:05
oiaohmBasically distributions need to grow up.  They have to provide a way to run new with old.Jun 05 02:05
ThistleWebdont BSD do that? where lib files for each app are separate?Jun 05 02:06
oiaohmSo that people are not effected by QA failures.Jun 05 02:06
yuhongNo one is interested?Jun 05 02:07
neonflossdont take this in the wrong way, but I wonder how much could be accomplished if all the talking and passion in this channel could be traded in for something..Jun 05 02:07
ThistleWebso if an updated lib file on one app breaks another in Linux, both are running their own lib files in BSDJun 05 02:07
oiaohmThistleWeb: it something bsd has had right for a while.Jun 05 02:07
oiaohmLinux users need to start demarding it.Jun 05 02:08
ThistleWebfor some reason ports is springing to mindJun 05 02:08
ThistleWebI tried FreeBSD once ages ago but never got it installed rightJun 05 02:08
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oiaohmFreeBSD good packaging design poor hardware support on adverage.Jun 05 02:09
ThistleWebI thought the FreeBSD installer was hella complicatedJun 05 02:09
oiaohmYep that too.Jun 05 02:09
ThistleWebbut then, this was a while back and I'm much more naturalised to Linux now, so maybe I'd have a different view nowJun 05 02:10
ThistleWebor maybe FreeBSD wasn'yt the best choice for me at the timeJun 05 02:10
oiaohmIts so simple to look at the wrong cause of failure.Jun 05 02:10
oiaohmMost linux's have good installers.Jun 05 02:10
oiaohmIts something they got right lot sooner than the BSD's some of the BSDs are still trying to sort it out.Jun 05 02:11
DaemonFC 05 02:11
DaemonFChehJun 05 02:11
DaemonFCit works tooJun 05 02:11
DaemonFCwell, I thought it didJun 05 02:26
DaemonFCit has some issuesJun 05 02:26
schestowitz“ODF is Going to Be National Standard for Document[s] in Vietnam Too” < >Jun 05 02:30
schestowitzHehe.Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz"It is most difficult to make correct decisions when it comes to the stockJun 05 02:32
schestowitzmarket, but I guessed right (for the time being).Jun 05 02:32
schestowitzIn March of this year, I reinvested  50% of the money I had parked when IJun 05 02:32
schestowitzwithdrew from Wall Street back in July of 2008.Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz  In April I invested the other 50% because I felt the Economic StimulusJun 05 02:32
schestowitzmoney that was to be sent to taxpayers and retired people in May would boostJun 05 02:32
schestowitzthe economy.Jun 05 02:32
schestowitzWhether that premise was the reason the Dow Jones average started to ascendJun 05 02:32
schestowitzor not, whatever, I am up 20% in a short span and that’s fantastic.Jun 05 02:32
schestowitzThe only truth about the market is it does not respond to logic or what weJun 05 02:32
schestowitzsee in the news; rather, it is contrarian and seems to have a mind of itsJun 05 02:32
schestowitzown.Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz"Jun 05 02:32
schestowitzObama made things worse by worsening the deficit. Wait and watch...Jun 05 02:32
ThistleWebI wonder which government is going to charge Microsoft with attempted fraud over Microsoft lobbyists lying to politicians to get a resign of a Microsoft contract when FOSS is on the tableJun 05 02:35
ThistleWebre-sign*Jun 05 02:35
ThistleWebwhether thats windows or officeJun 05 02:36
oiaohmAs ODF numbers grow pressure on MS to support it also grows.Jun 05 02:37
ThistleWebwhether it's patent FUD, odf FUD, TOC FUD or any other type of FUDJun 05 02:37
ThistleWebit's one thing to be selective about where you focus, its something else to outright lieJun 05 02:38
ThistleWebif you knowingly use a skewed report to spin your sales pitch, you're knowingly lyingJun 05 02:38
ThistleWebyou could also charge Microsoft with endangering national security when the military PCs can get easily infectedJun 05 02:40
DaemonFC 05 02:44
DaemonFCObama's speech in CairoJun 05 02:44
tessierschestowitz: NiceJun 05 02:48
schestowitzVietnam?Jun 05 02:48
tessierYesJun 05 02:48
tessierI think I might know that person...Jun 05 02:49
schestowitzI thought soJun 05 02:49
tessierThe name ca vang (goldfish) is familiar...Jun 05 02:49
schestowitzYou know them allJun 05 02:49
schestowitzYesJun 05 02:49
tessierThat's his twitter name at least.Jun 05 02:49
tessierMight be pe_cua on freenodeJun 05 02:49
schestowitzWe have another one in IRCJun 05 02:49
schestowitzOr 2Jun 05 02:49
schestowitzIn #bnJun 05 02:50
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DaemonFCschestowitz: 15:00Jun 05 02:59
DaemonFCI find his entire speech to be bizarre and hypocriticalJun 05 03:00
DaemonFCbut that sentence in particular is ironicJun 05 03:00
DaemonFCabout any country that places one group of people over another being destined to failJun 05 03:01
DaemonFCevery country in the world has priviliged supermajorities of some kind or anotherJun 05 03:02
DaemonFCbut the one biggest single group are the Abrahamic religionsJun 05 03:02
DaemonFCwho by their very nature, subjugate, enslave, intimidate, terrorize, murder, and  cajoleJun 05 03:03
DaemonFCthe only difference is that the US government is officially neutral even if all the people running it are notJun 05 03:04
schestowitz15:00?Jun 05 03:04
DaemonFCwhereas most Islamic contries rule by religious lawJun 05 03:05
schestowitzI refrrence to what exactly?Jun 05 03:05
schestowitzMicrosoft Embracing, Extending, and Extinguishing Sub-notebooks < >Jun 05 03:05
DaemonFCthe videoJun 05 03:05
schestowitzWhich one?Jun 05 03:05
DaemonFC 05 03:05
schestowitzOhJun 05 03:05
DaemonFCin an Islamic country, you may get a show trial before they take you out and hang you not even 24 hours later for "crimes against nature"Jun 05 03:06
DaemonFCin the US, by 2003, it was mainly a few states with fines or a couple days in jail who really couldn't enforce those laws because of the fourth amendmentJun 05 03:07
DaemonFCand no state interestJun 05 03:07
DaemonFCsocially, Islam is still in the 14th centuryJun 05 03:08
DaemonFCso is Christianity, but the system of checks in our government usually prevent them from twisting the law into a religiously motivated witch huntJun 05 03:09
DaemonFCschestowitz: It's funny that Obama cherry picked the story about Thomas Jefferson having a Qur'anJun 05 03:09
DaemonFCbecause Thomas Jefferson was an atheistJun 05 03:10
schestowitzI haven't watched the videoJun 05 03:10
schestowitzIt's a tad agonising watching Barrack because he seems arrogantJun 05 03:10
schestowitzCommunication skills is all a politician needsJun 05 03:11
DaemonFCmost of the people that set up our constitution were atheists, freemasons, or at least extremely moderate Christians who had learned from the abuses of the Church of England what state religion doesJun 05 03:11
schestowitzThe lobbysists fo the restJun 05 03:11
schestowitzA law degree is common.Jun 05 03:11
schestowitzAnd Obama strikes me as unprofessionalJun 05 03:11
schestowitzReally? Jun 05 03:12
schestowitzPeople who founded the US were VERY religiousJun 05 03:12
DaemonFCyes, there were no foaming at the mouth Pat Robertson typesJun 05 03:12
schestowitzI don't know about the constitutionJun 05 03:12
schestowitzI never studies US historyJun 05 03:12
schestowitz*diedJun 05 03:12
DaemonFCthe first amendment in the bill of rights specifically forbids state religionJun 05 03:12
schestowitzWell, Church of England is ironically a lot less influential now than religion in the USJun 05 03:13
DaemonFC"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion"Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFCthe Establishment ClauseJun 05 03:13
schestowitzWhy "in God we trust then"?Jun 05 03:13
schestowitzAnd why is it assumed that theism is inherent in a born child?Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFCceremonial diesm, and was not added til 1952Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 03:13
schestowitzSome ascribed this to vanity and child abuseJun 05 03:13
schestowitzAnd to say "I don't BELIEVE in God is foolish too"Jun 05 03:14
DaemonFCUS money did not have In God We Trust on it until the 1950sJun 05 03:14
schestowitzIt's almost to say that an invisible man does exist but you don't BELIEVE in itJun 05 03:14
schestowitzThese are al verbal trapsJun 05 03:14
schestowitzLike "intelligent design"Jun 05 03:14
DaemonFCnor did the Pledge of Allegiance contain "One nation under God" until 1957Jun 05 03:14
schestowitzTo describe unintelligent theoreticiansJun 05 03:14
DaemonFCPresident Eisenhower signed both of those into lawJun 05 03:15
DaemonFCand quipped his satisfaction of the thought of millions of school kids having to recit itJun 05 03:15
DaemonFC*reciteJun 05 03:15
neighborleeyou know thats growing very old..I 'recited' it everyday,,and it never HARMED my psycheJun 05 03:16
DaemonFCI refused toJun 05 03:16
neighborleenow if your an athiest ,,I guess its your right to be excused harm no foulJun 05 03:16
DaemonFCpublic school can't have kids recite it anymoreJun 05 03:16
DaemonFCbut I was in a Catholic schoolJun 05 03:16
DaemonFCfor a while til they threw me outJun 05 03:17
neighborleethats a waste ..Jun 05 03:17
DaemonFCI've never believed in that stuffJun 05 03:17
DaemonFCnot even when I was 5 years oldJun 05 03:17
DaemonFCoh they hated meJun 05 03:17
DaemonFC:PJun 05 03:17
neighborleethe pledge has great meaning..sweat and blood on the backs of those whom protected our freedomsJun 05 03:18
neighborleevery oddJun 05 03:18
DaemonFCI said it until that lineJun 05 03:18
neighborleeI mean at that ageJun 05 03:18
DaemonFCI recited the 1896 editionJun 05 03:18
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 03:18
neighborleedo your views mirror  that of your parents ?Jun 05 03:18
DaemonFCnot really, of course it's a funny story behind thatJun 05 03:19
DaemonFClong storyJun 05 03:19
neighborleeah :))Jun 05 03:19
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DaemonFCmy parents were never all that religiousJun 05 03:19
DaemonFCthey sent me to that school because I was hyperactive and such and they figured that being there would change me or something I guessJun 05 03:20
neighborlee:(Jun 05 03:20
DaemonFCthey were the "show up to church for Easter and Christmas" typeJun 05 03:20
DaemonFCand it was my mom dragging my dad in tow for even thatJun 05 03:20
DaemonFClolJun 05 03:20
neighborleeprob. not uncommonJun 05 03:21
neighborleemy friend is similarJun 05 03:21
neighborleehe's basically an athiestJun 05 03:21
DaemonFCI hated going to churchJun 05 03:21
neighborleeat least until his death bed o_0Jun 05 03:21
DaemonFCthe last time I've even gone was like an Easter service 11 years agoJun 05 03:22
ThistleWebif that happened to me I'd find an alergy to men in dresses which cause me to have temporary Tourettes when near themJun 05 03:22
neighborleelolJun 05 03:22
neighborleecontrary to popular isn't mandatory to believing ;)Jun 05 03:22
ThistleWebno, but gullibility isJun 05 03:23
ThistleWeb;)Jun 05 03:23
neighborleeits nice for some.for community..some chruches give aid..its not a overall bad thing..some people can MAKE it bad thoughJun 05 03:23
DaemonFCmy mom, I don't know how to describe her, she's not a real church-goer, but she has a decidedly Protestant tic that flares up now and thenJun 05 03:23
neighborleeand also contrary to popular belief..believing in god gives SOME people hope and its unfair to rob them OF thatJun 05 03:23
DaemonFCthought it would be a great idea to have them do an exorcism on me at this Pentecostal churchJun 05 03:23
neighborleeoh greeeeeeeeatJun 05 03:24
neighborleenot their faultJun 05 03:24
neighborleeyour actions spoke volumnesJun 05 03:24
neighborleeI mean come on :))Jun 05 03:24
neighborleenot your fault eitherJun 05 03:24
DaemonFCwell, so like after dealing with about every kind of Christian there is I have concluded that they are all full of it, that they are all downright crazy, and the most I can do is respect the ones that leave me aloneJun 05 03:24
neighborleeDaemonFC, are you on pills for this ??Jun 05 03:25
neighborleexanac ?Jun 05 03:25
DaemonFCLithiumJun 05 03:25
neighborleekkJun 05 03:25
DaemonFCZyprexaJun 05 03:25
DaemonFCProzacJun 05 03:25
neighborleeimagine if you were NOT on pills right nowJun 05 03:25
schestowitz"The first signal of trouble will be a rising interest rate. I have beenJun 05 03:25
schestowitzexpecting it for a while now, but the overflow of foreclosed homes, severeJun 05 03:25
schestowitzunemployment and a general retrenchment by consumers has held inflation inJun 05 03:25
schestowitzcheck.Jun 05 03:25
schestowitzWhen the Chinese decide our tax revenues reach a position where they barelyJun 05 03:25
schestowitzcover the interest on our debt, they will stop buying Treasury bonds and theJun 05 03:25
schestowitzbubble will break.Jun 05 03:25
schestowitzThen again, consumer confidence may rise, astute buyers may start buying theJun 05 03:25
schestowitzforeclosures and the trillion dollars Obama has shelled out to stop theJun 05 03:25
schestowitzbleeding, may very well cure the patient…or somewhat of an in betweenJun 05 03:25
schestowitzscenario might come to pass.Jun 05 03:25
schestowitzI am cautiously optimistic.Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz"Jun 05 03:25
neighborleebad schestowitz  LOLJun 05 03:26
DaemonFCI took myself off the Zyprexa/Prozac after gaining like 20 poundsJun 05 03:26
DaemonFCthat stuff makes you overeat and not able to be sexually arousedJun 05 03:26
DaemonFCit's truly nasty shitJun 05 03:26
neighborleeDaemonFC, doctor have you on other things ?Jun 05 03:26
DaemonFCa number of themJun 05 03:27
neighborleeDaemonFC, more exercize ?Jun 05 03:27
neighborleegoodJun 05 03:27
DaemonFCadderall, ritalin, stuff I don't remember what they called itJun 05 03:27
DaemonFCPaxilJun 05 03:27
neighborleeget wiifit LOLJun 05 03:27
neighborleetons-a-fun ;))Jun 05 03:27
neighborleeseriously its major fun :)) ,,I think so anywayJun 05 03:27
DaemonFCthen there were these big blue pills, thats another thing I don't recall what it was, it was some off label seizure medJun 05 03:27
DaemonFCit made me hallucinateJun 05 03:27
schestowitzweeeeeeeee feet!Jun 05 03:27
neighborleewell anyway ,,it wasn't your..or your parents faultJun 05 03:28
DaemonFCand I ended up on the inpatient unitJun 05 03:28
neighborleeso lay blame asideJun 05 03:28
neighborleeif there is any-Jun 05 03:28
neighborleeschestowitz, haJun 05 03:28
DaemonFCwhat does a foot fetish have to do with a japanese video game console?Jun 05 03:29
neighborleelolJun 05 03:29
ThistleWebWii FitJun 05 03:29
ThistleWebor weee feet, depending on your accentJun 05 03:29
DaemonFCI did end up quitting smoking thoughJun 05 03:31
DaemonFCthey keep upping the tax on those damned thingsJun 05 03:31
ThistleWebDaemonFC, congrats, I did that about 18mths ago myselfJun 05 03:31
DaemonFCI thought $4 a pack was bad, my cousin from New Jersey brought an empty suitcase with him to IndianaJun 05 03:31
DaemonFCand fileld it upJun 05 03:31
DaemonFCthey're over $8 a pack thereJun 05 03:31
DaemonFC*filledJun 05 03:31
schestowitzATMs That Run Windows Fall Into Hands of Crackers < >Jun 05 03:32
DaemonFCplease don't be Wells FargoJun 05 03:32
DaemonFCuggghJun 05 03:32
ThistleWebis there an easy way to tell which banks use Windows ATMs? or is that all NDA stuffJun 05 03:33
DaemonFCI'm calling their customer care line nowJun 05 03:33
DaemonFCschestowitz: Feel like posting a video?Jun 05 03:34
DaemonFCdepending on what they say of courseJun 05 03:34
ThistleWebI've never seen any sign of an underlying OS at any ATM but that could just be coincidence of the times I walk past one, or use oneJun 05 03:37
DaemonFCschestowitz: I did get Wells Fargo to fix their online banking systemJun 05 03:37
DaemonFCIt was giving a "Update your browser" screen to anyone using OperaJun 05 03:37
DaemonFCThistleWeb: It's easy to use XP as a kioskJun 05 03:38
DaemonFCwithout anyone knowing what it isJun 05 03:38
ThistleWebI've seen jobcentre kiosks uisng windows 2000 I thinkJun 05 03:38
DaemonFCXP Embedded is extremely modularJun 05 03:38
ThistleWebnot noticable until it crashesJun 05 03:39
DaemonFCyou can fit it on a 512 meg flash driveJun 05 03:39
DaemonFCand still have it be good enough to run a kioskJun 05 03:39
ThistleWebwindows on something which needs to be secure IS a worryJun 05 03:39
DaemonFCideally you'd remove Internet Explorer, DirectX, Windows Media Player, the administrative tools, etc.Jun 05 03:39
DaemonFCif you strip down XP Embedded then most of the things that typically have security problems aren't thereJun 05 03:40
ThistleWebI guessJun 05 03:40
DaemonFCactually, I've played around with it quite a bitJun 05 03:40
DaemonFCif you trim it down to run a kiosk, then only about 6% of the security updates for XP applyJun 05 03:41
DaemonFCthe rest of the components just aren't thereJun 05 03:41
ThistleWebI never tried any embedded OS so I'm picturing normal XP modified here, which is obviously wrongJun 05 03:42
DaemonFChardly bulletproof, but much more malware-resistant than a typical XP installationJun 05 03:42
DaemonFCof course a lot of companies that sell XP Embedded don't set it up rightJun 05 03:42
DaemonFCand IE and it's engine and all that are still thereJun 05 03:42
DaemonFCwhich of course is a bad ideaJun 05 03:42
ThistleWebif they set it up right, they lose money from the premium support lineJun 05 03:42
DaemonFCXP itself is not really all that bad, it's the extra components that are mandatory in a normal version of XPJun 05 03:43
DaemonFCIE and Windows Media Player make up more than 90% of XP's security problemsJun 05 03:44
ThistleWebI know IE is badJun 05 03:44
ThistleWebalong with OfficeJun 05 03:44
ThistleWebfor critical vulnerablitiesJun 05 03:44
DaemonFCOffice is bad because of macros and IE integrationJun 05 03:45
DaemonFCand now it integrates with .NetJun 05 03:45
ThistleWebjudging by the update descriptionsJun 05 03:45
DaemonFCand a lot of other things it has no business poking around inJun 05 03:45
ThistleWebyep, turning off macros and active x is a keyJun 05 03:45
DaemonFCStarOffice has a convertor utility that OOo does notJun 05 03:46
DaemonFCit lets you convert MS Office macros into StarBasicJun 05 03:46
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 03:46
ThistleWebreally?Jun 05 03:46
DaemonFCyepJun 05 03:46
DaemonFCand back againJun 05 03:46
ThistleWebdamn I was looking for that about a year agoJun 05 03:46
ThistleWebto get a local charity to switch away from MS OfficeJun 05 03:46
DaemonFCStarOffice can be a worthy upgrade if you need advanced featuresJun 05 03:47
ThistleWebthey had 5 .doc template letters with macros they neededJun 05 03:47
DaemonFCthey license it for $40 and it's per individualJun 05 03:47
DaemonFCnot per machineJun 05 03:47
DaemonFCso I can install it for my own use on unlimited systemsJun 05 03:47
ThistleWeba single convert and save would workJun 05 03:47
schestowitzDaylight is coming now. Time to get some sleepJun 05 03:47
ThistleWebthen they run the converted odf as templateJun 05 03:47
DaemonFCStarOffice also works with the Novell OOXML plugin if you need it toJun 05 03:48
DaemonFC:PJun 05 03:48
DaemonFCI do cause it's that or use MS OfficeJun 05 03:48
ThistleWebdoes open office allow macros?Jun 05 03:48
DaemonFCIyesJun 05 03:49
DaemonFCit's StarBasicJun 05 03:49
DaemonFCthey call it BasicJun 05 03:49
DaemonFCbut same thingJun 05 03:49
ThistleWebI have no idea how to write macros, so I looked for a converterJun 05 03:49
DaemonFClooks like OOo 3 can use *some* Excel macrosJun 05 03:50
DaemonFCbut for security reasons it's disabled by defaultJun 05 03:50
DaemonFClooks like they're trying to get it to where you can run unmodified MS Office macrosJun 05 03:51
DaemonFCturning it off is a good ideaJun 05 03:51
DaemonFClet the user pull that switchJun 05 03:51
DaemonFC:PJun 05 03:51
ThistleWeblolJun 05 03:51
ThistleWebgotta love the contrasting approaches to interoperability between OOo and Microsoft. OOo gradually implements more MS features and strives to get them working, while MS intentionally fail on odf supportJun 05 03:53
DaemonFCOOo needs to be compatible with MS Office more than MS Office needs to be compatible with OOoJun 05 04:12
DaemonFCit's jsut like how web browsers have Quirks Mode where they can emulate some Internet Explorer odditiesJun 05 04:12
ThistleWebtrue although you'd think Microsoft wouldn't want to push the EU too muchJun 05 04:20
ThistleWebon the other hand, they are used to getting their own wayJun 05 04:21
DaemonFCMicrosoft is compatible with ODF the same whay that Windows is compatible with POSIXJun 05 04:23
DaemonFCthey implement just enough of it to be in compliance with what they government said they have toJun 05 04:23
DaemonFCWin32 and Win64 are not the real NT API, just what Windows apps seeJun 05 04:24
DaemonFCMicrosoft could easily make Windows into a fully UNIX-compliant system by implementing another API personalityJun 05 04:24
DaemonFCthey have no reason to but it could be done without redoing the whole operating systemJun 05 04:25
ThistleWebthey do seem to go to great lengths to ensure vendor lock in, so they do have knowledgable peeps, it's a pity it's being channeled in negative directionsJun 05 04:25
DaemonFCmost of the native API is undocumented and most of what's known about it has been obtained through reverse engineeringJun 05 04:25
DaemonFClike ReactOS and WineJun 05 04:25
DaemonFCWindows has every feature you would expect in a modern operating system, and it's all clearly UNIX-inspiredJun 05 04:26
DaemonFCbut yes, intentionally incompatibleJun 05 04:26
DaemonFCMicrosoft does distribute GPL-licensed software in Subsystem for UNIX ApplicationsJun 05 04:27
DaemonFCthey have GCC and a few hundred other GNU utilitiesJun 05 04:27
DaemonFCto implement a UNIX environment on top of Windows NTJun 05 04:28
DaemonFCoddly enough they don't use BASH for their shellJun 05 04:28
DaemonFCthey use KSH (Korn ShellJun 05 04:28
ThistleWebI hardly use the terminal so I don't care what it uses, bash seems fine to meJun 05 04:29
ThistleWebI guess it matters if you use it a lotJun 05 04:30
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DaemonFCI use TCSHJun 05 04:31
DaemonFCbut use DASH as /bin/shJun 05 04:31
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DaemonFC 05 04:40
DaemonFCthe real reason for why there appears to be so many IE 6 usersJun 05 04:41
DaemonFCAVG Linkscanner IDs as IE 6 on XPJun 05 04:41
ThistleWebI heard something somehwere about changing your browser ID to google's spider and it gets passed many sites' blocksJun 05 04:42
ThistleWebbecause people want google to index itJun 05 04:43
ThistleWebcant remember where I heard it, or what the context wasJun 05 04:43
ThistleWebI think it was for sites requiring free registration for some contentJun 05 04:44
DaemonFCyeahJun 05 04:44
DaemonFCfree pornJun 05 04:44
DaemonFCwooohoooJun 05 04:44
ThistleWebdunno if it works or notJun 05 04:44
ThistleWebI know the BBC had a loophole for the iPlayer where it let you download if it saw you as an iPhoneJun 05 04:45
ThistleWebrather than just stream itJun 05 04:45
ThistleWebthey fixed that within a few days and described people using a browser agent switcher as "hacking"Jun 05 04:45
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mib_dya64ois fully ODF compliant ?Jun 05 06:40
DaemonFClots of Bing commercials on TVJun 05 07:02
DaemonFCChina is censoring the term June 4thJun 05 07:34
DaemonFCfrom appearing anywhere on the internet as viewed in ChinaJun 05 07:34
neonflooranyone mind helping me with some shell scripting?Jun 05 07:37
DaemonFCWordPerfect supports ODF wellJun 05 07:42
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mib_dya64ois SUN's fully compliant with SUN's ODF format ? Yes or no.Jun 05 07:52
Omar87Hello everyone.Jun 05 07:52
Omar87Is there anything wrong with FSDaily?Jun 05 07:52
Omar87Because it doesn't work with me.Jun 05 07:53
Omar87Could it have been attacked or is it just me?Jun 05 07:53
DaemonFCit's downJun 05 07:54
Omar87DaemonFC: Really? What's the problem?Jun 05 07:55
DaemonFCno ideaJun 05 07:55
Omar87Hmm.. Well I hope it comes back up soon, then.. -_-Jun 05 07:55
DaemonFCsomeone needs to send Rush Limbaugh a cigar box full of Oxycontin and let the problem sort itself outJun 05 08:12
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ushimitsudokihowdyJun 05 08:39
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Omar87Who's Rush Limbaugh?Jun 05 08:53
DaemonFCa big fat idiotJun 05 08:54
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 08:54
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ushimitsudokiOmar87: American Right-Wing radio talkshow hostJun 05 09:03
schestowitzHmmmmm.....Jun 05 09:04
schestowitz-rw-rw-r--  1 boycottn boycottn 239679101 May 27 14:53 wordpressdatabase-27052009.dumpJun 05 09:04
schestowitz-rw-rw-r--  1 boycottn boycottn 229637689 May 28 00:45 wordpressdatabase-28052009.dumpJun 05 09:04
schestowitzAny reason why a DB can get smaller overnight?Jun 05 09:04
schestowitzMaybe cache? Change of mysql version?Jun 05 09:05
schestowitzIt shrank by 10 MB overnightJun 05 09:05
schestowitzOmar87: yes, FSDaily and FSMagzine has been down for daysJun 05 09:06
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MinceRhayJun 05 09:10
DaemonFChmmm, WordPerfect Office SP1Jun 05 09:11
DaemonFCheh, just popped up and offered to installJun 05 09:11
schestowitzmib_dya64o: are you an expert with mysql?Jun 05 09:11
schestowitzHere's the thingJun 05 09:13
schestowitz26th: 227mbJun 05 09:13
schestowitz27th: 239mbJun 05 09:13
schestowitz28th: 229mbJun 05 09:13
schestowitzQuestion is, why did it inflate itself that day so suddenly.   Can mysql keep some metadata or something nefarious?Jun 05 09:14
ushimitsudokischestowitz: if the dumps are from mysqldump they will be flat text files and can be viewed (and diffed) in the normal text editorsJun 05 09:23
ushimitsudokiif the dumps are from some other proggy they might be compressed or something.Jun 05 09:24
ushimitsudokiso the first thing to determine is what is generating the dumpsJun 05 09:24
schestowitzushimitsudoki: just a standard mysqldumpJun 05 09:25
schestowitzGiven the size, I wonder if two dbs were dumped into one in this caseJun 05 09:26
schestowitzAs in, both the wiki and wordpressJun 05 09:26
schestowitzBecause the size would fit perfectly.Jun 05 09:26
schestowitzI am just being in 'paranoid mode' hereJun 05 09:26
schestowitzBut later I find it was just a one-day anomaly, so..Jun 05 09:26
DaemonFCschestowitz: WordPerfect Office was going to be on LinuxJun 05 09:36
DaemonFCtil Microsoft made it worth their while to not port itJun 05 09:37
DaemonFCit does run fine under Wine thoughJun 05 09:37
schestowitzThe Corel dealJun 05 09:39
DaemonFCmmhmJun 05 09:39
schestowitzGood news!Jun 05 09:41
schestowitzThe EU commision finally gave me the docs I demandedJun 05 09:41
schestowitzI was going to file a complaint against themJun 05 09:41
DaemonFCschestowitz: 05 09:41
schestowitzEuropean Commission was going to be Reported to ombudsman for Not Obeying Transparency RulesJun 05 09:42
schestowitzThis was the plan:Jun 05 09:43
schestowitzI could complain at the ombudsman against Lars Hindkjær Pedersen and the European Commission, DG InfoSoc, here is the form:Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz 05 09:43
schestowitzI was just about to send it to The European Ombudsman — 1 Avenue du Président Robert Schuman — B.P. 403 — FR- 67001 Strasbourg Cedex — FranceJun 05 09:43
schestowitz3: Misconduct and delay: public access request concerning documents about the European Software Strategy (ESS) under Lars Hindkjær Pedersen and several colleagues at the European Commission, DG InfosocJun 05 09:43
schestowitz4. Breach of Article 255 TECJun 05 09:43
schestowitz- improper conduct and delay of the Commission in its application ofJun 05 09:43
schestowitzdirective EC/1049/2001 concerning repeated and confirmatory request forJun 05 09:43
schestowitzdocument accessJun 05 09:43
schestowitz- alleged difficulty to find documents which relate to the ESS. TheJun 05 09:43
schestowitzCommission confirmed a provided non-exhaustive list helped to find someJun 05 09:43
schestowitzof the documents but repeated the call for clarifications ad nauseam.Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz- The request and communication was directed to the department in chargeJun 05 09:43
schestowitzwith the European Software Strategy (ESS) who are in possession ofJun 05 09:43
schestowitzrelevant documents.Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz- deadlines under the legal base have expired without grant of anyJun 05 09:43
schestowitzaccess to the requested documents or an official decision.Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz5.Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz- grant access and help to identify the documents, cmp. Article 15Jun 05 09:43
schestowitzEC/1049/2001Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz- examine all documents in their possession concerning the ESS process.Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz- meet the legal requirements under Article 15 EC/1049/2001Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz==Jun 05 09:44
schestowitzBut they sent it to me at the 90th minutesJun 05 09:44
schestowitz*minuteJun 05 09:44
schestowitzPast the deadlineJun 05 09:44
schestowitzBut there is no need to register a formal complaint anymoreJun 05 09:44
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schestowitzMicrosoft Copies Wikipedia and Links to a GNU Licence < >Jun 05 09:50
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MinceRso nothing is unholy to m$ now? :>Jun 05 10:05
schestowitz 05 10:09
schestowitzNo matched for Zuck. He's an undercover... AstroTurf dude... just registering sites via domainbyproxy.comJun 05 10:09
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tessier 05 10:13
tessierNovell isn't doing all bad it seems...Jun 05 10:13
tessierSo many companies are so schizophrenic it's bizarre...Jun 05 10:13
oiaohmRemember Greg K-H was a SUSE staffer.Jun 05 10:18
oiaohmThere are quite a few distributions who would love to grab him.Jun 05 10:18
oiaohmNovell is limited on how much they can interfer with him.Jun 05 10:19
MinceRyet he happily spreads FUD.Jun 05 10:21
oiaohmCompared to mono lead he don't spreed much MinceR.Jun 05 10:22
MinceRyes, and compared to politicians, he often tells the truthJun 05 10:22
MinceRit isn't saying much.Jun 05 10:22
oiaohmAll main developers for all the closed source distributions spreed some fud to sell distribution they are connected to MinceR.Jun 05 10:23
MinceRwell apparently the others didn't get so much exposure about itJun 05 10:24
oiaohmThere are the ones who do Fud.   Then here is ones that do all out lies.Jun 05 10:24
MinceRthey probably spread a lot less FUDJun 05 10:24
schestowitzFedora Leaves Mono Out, OpenSUSE Has Second Thoughts, and So Should Ubuntu < >Jun 05 10:25
schestowitztessier: indeedJun 05 10:25
schestowitzGreg is doing great workJun 05 10:25
schestowitzSometimes it's a PR thingJun 05 10:25
schestowitzLike Intel hiring CoxJun 05 10:25
schestowitzOr Linspire putting ESR on its boardJun 05 10:25
schestowitzThey buy icons to be used as some sort of defense mascotsJun 05 10:25
oiaohmMost of Gregs fud about mono is funny.  Its like lets just skip over that topic is not the department I work in.   Now anyone who knows Greg he don't skip things normally.Jun 05 10:27
tessierschestowitz: It looks like you have a cron job to dump the db on the server and it isn't working properly.Jun 05 10:27
tessierschestowitz: It is trying to deliver the errors from the cron job to but that doesn't work because we have disabled the receiving of all local mail. Maybe I should set it up to accept its own local mails to the boycottn user account but not accept any mail from the network?Jun 05 10:28
ushimitsudokiI love this (from Miguel's latest blog): "On Windows for example, MonoDevelop runs on top of the .NET Framework and uses the .NET managed debugger instead of using Mono's runtime and Mono's debugger, so there is no dependency on Mono to be installed on the system."Jun 05 10:28
ushimitsudokiSo basically you've got a Windows .NET application that doesn't even use mono. Hooray. This is truly a blessing for Linux users everywhere.Jun 05 10:28
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oiaohmYep and MonoDevelop is still secound rate to visual studio on windows.Jun 05 10:30
MinceRtaking into account what my colleague said about vs, that would be pretty bad then :>Jun 05 10:31
ushimitsudokiExactly. If I was a windows developer, why the hell would I be using this second rate shit anyway? What serious windows developer isn't running visual studio? and what wanna-be isn't running VS Express?Jun 05 10:31
ushimitsudokiI've never understood that whole "bringing Windows developers over to LInux" line of argumentJun 05 10:31
oiaohmVS Express with the right alterations is the same program as Full VS.Jun 05 10:31
ushimitsudokiIs there a group out there that cares LESS about linux what Windows developers?Jun 05 10:32
ushimitsudokis/what/than/Jun 05 10:32
MinceRyes, macos developersJun 05 10:32
ushimitsudokihehJun 05 10:32
oiaohmMy problem is .net programmers are more like the VB programmers of old.Jun 05 10:32
oiaohmMost of what they produce is crap.Jun 05 10:32
oiaohmThe create a few gems from time to time.  But to make them useable you need to port them to a better language.Jun 05 10:33
oiaohmI really don't see the interest in them.   We would be better off getting the windows codes hooked in python.Jun 05 10:34
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schestowitzCan you guys access the site (BN)?Jun 05 10:37
MinceRi couldn't the last time, retryingJun 05 10:37
_Hicham_good morning Sir schestowitzJun 05 10:37
schestowitztessier: oh, yeah...Jun 05 10:37
schestowitzI don't know why the cron didn't work, eitherJun 05 10:37
tessierYou doing something with the site?Jun 05 10:38
schestowitzNopeJun 05 10:38
tessierI can't seem to access it from here. I can ssh in though. And I see weird stuff in the logs:Jun 05 10:38
ushimitsudokino BN for me - it was up earlierJun 05 10:38
tessier216.137.5.141 - - [05/Jun/2009:02:48:59 -0700] "GET /2009/03/03/ HTTP/1.1" 200 24576 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)"Jun 05 10:38
tessier216.137.5.141 - - [05/Jun/2009:02:49:00 -0700] "GET /2009/03/03/new-arm-linux-gadget/ HTTP/1.1" 200 154194 "" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)"Jun 05 10:38
schestowitzHmmmmm......Jun 05 10:39
schestowitzIt worked about 5 minutes agoJun 05 10:39
schestowitzI didn't change anythingJun 05 10:39
tessierI just restarted httpd. Now traffic is moving again.Jun 05 10:39
tessierThat same referrer kept appearing in the logs over and over again.Jun 05 10:39
MinceRyup, works nowJun 05 10:39
schestowitzThanks!Jun 05 10:40
schestowitz :-)Jun 05 10:40
*schestowitz Wonders what happened there....Jun 05 10:40
fewaback upJun 05 10:40
schestowitzWe've just exposed a list of MS lobbyists in EuropeJun 05 10:40
schestowitzHuge list!Jun 05 10:40
_Hicham_I can access BN schestowitzJun 05 10:40
schestowitzIt's a list to be put on displayJun 05 10:41
schestowitzThe EU hides it behind Web form, so it's public material, but not easy to accessJun 05 10:41
fewa The Bahamas Telecommunications Company, Ltd.Jun 05 10:41
fewahmmmmmJun 05 10:41
schestowitzSame for Presto Ellis/Gates lobbyistsJun 05 10:41
fewaDDoS from the bahamasJun 05 10:41
_Hicham_Morocco loves BNJun 05 10:41
_Hicham_and loves schestowitz tooJun 05 10:42
schestowitzJust don't buy me flowers.. *LOL*Jun 05 10:42
_Hicham_I am gonna buy you some proprietary softwareJun 05 10:43
_Hicham_as a giftJun 05 10:43
_Hicham_vive schestowitz!Jun 05 10:44
oiaohmYou could buy him Linux foundation member ship and get a email address on    Most likely even more useless.Jun 05 10:44
_Hicham_howdy oiaohm?Jun 05 10:48
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Jun 05 10:48
oiaohmIf someone giving me propretary software it betting run under Linux.Jun 05 10:48
schestowitzoiaohm is the good cop hereJun 05 10:48
schestowitzDaemonFC is the daemonic oneJun 05 10:48
schestowitzSpreading Linux FUDJun 05 10:49
schestowitzMercilesslyJun 05 10:49
schestowitzAnd peddling non-Free s/w...Jun 05 10:49
oiaohmI get in trouble from twitter for not being pro open source all the time.Jun 05 10:49
_Hicham_DaemonFC is a great devJun 05 10:49
_Hicham_he is gonna implement a lot of things in LinuxJun 05 10:49
_Hicham_port existing games to GLXJun 05 10:49
_Hicham_and so onJun 05 10:49
_Hicham_so no worriesJun 05 10:50
_Hicham_he is working hardJun 05 10:50
oiaohmI am more a system admin.Jun 05 10:50
_Hicham_oiaohm is gonna make link time optimization happen in gccJun 05 10:50
oiaohmSo I am kinda mixed in my for open source and against it.  I have to have stuff work.Jun 05 10:50
oiaohmIf gcc does not get there llvm will.Jun 05 10:50
_Hicham_oiaohm : can't we work without proprietary software?Jun 05 10:50
oiaohmEither way I don't care.Jun 05 10:51
_Hicham_llvm doesn't support it yet?Jun 05 10:51
oiaohmllvm cannot build all gcc source codes yet.Jun 05 10:51
oiaohmSo there are still stacks of applications out there it cannot build.Jun 05 10:51
oiaohm_Hicham_: there are some areas where I just cannot change users at this stage.  All alterations I do must leave businesses highly productive.Jun 05 10:52
oiaohmParticular areas like POS's and forms of data entry I have already mostly converted to open source.Jun 05 10:53
_Hicham_wine can't still do the job of transition?Jun 05 10:53
oiaohmBig bug bear is laptops and the like.  When you need profile auto syncing back to server when connected.   There is no nice way to just pick up a Linux laptop and just have it join even to a Linux server for that kind of operation.Jun 05 10:54
oiaohmMost are network intergration things that since Linux major job has been servers have not be coded up.Jun 05 10:55
oiaohmits not like you plan to disconnect servers at lot from networks like you do with laptops.Jun 05 10:56
_Hicham_I know it is hardJun 05 10:57
oiaohmBasically if I could show businesses that Linux has a standard system for that I could change a lot more of there machines over.Jun 05 10:57
oiaohmMore often than not its the bosses with the laptops.Jun 05 10:57
schestowitzMinceR: what was that blog with funny company logos?Jun 05 10:58
schestowitzLike GM fail?Jun 05 10:58
mib_dya64olike "wang cares !"Jun 05 10:58
oiaohmTwitter tries selling the the line.  Linux is perfect for everywhere.  _Hicham_  I bet you can see how that would go south to a person like me living in the real world of IT.Jun 05 10:59
schestowitzThere's a set of funny warped logosJun 05 10:59
schestowitzHi, mib_dya64o Jun 05 10:59
oiaohmThen calls me anti-linux when I start pointing out the problems.Jun 05 10:59
mib_dya64oHi Mr SchostowitzJun 05 11:00
mib_dya64osorry schestowitzJun 05 11:00
*jbartosik has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 05 11:01
oiaohmHi mib_dya64oJun 05 11:04
_Hicham_u are called anti-linux by linux enthusiastsJun 05 11:05
_Hicham_Linux enthusiasts who are still newbiesJun 05 11:06
_Hicham_who don't wanna hear about Linux problemsJun 05 11:06
oiaohmAnd I get called anti-windows by windows fans.Jun 05 11:06
schestowitzMicrosoft May be Following GM’s Road Map < >Jun 05 11:07
schestowitzI twisted the headline there:-)Jun 05 11:07
oiaohmAbout the only one I don't get called anti from is mac and that is mostly because I don't talk about them because they are too expensive.Jun 05 11:07
oiaohmI just one of these people who just expects that I will get fried by someone.Jun 05 11:07
_Hicham_but you are always welcome in BNJun 05 11:10
_Hicham_u can't find better than schestowitz' homeJun 05 11:10
mib_dya64oIt depends on your motive, if you are critical because you want to see the product improved thats fine :)Jun 05 11:10
_Hicham_everyone want to see products improvedJun 05 11:11
oiaohmI want the OS I can breach out of my network mib_dya64oJun 05 11:12
oiaohmI am not the most skilled system cracker in the world.  But windows is just a walk in the park.Jun 05 11:12
_Hicham_cracking Windows pays a lotJun 05 11:13
oiaohmI know I could have made billions form it.Jun 05 11:13
oiaohmBut I respect other people too much todo that.Jun 05 11:13
oiaohmNot running servers as main user on the system data back to early rule of OS design.Jun 05 11:14
oiaohmUAC is more a trojan than anything else.  My system is secure because I am running UAC.  So people get careless.Jun 05 11:15
mib_dya64ohow is it a trojan ?Jun 05 11:16
oiaohmIt interfers with you work for no real gain.Jun 05 11:16
oiaohmEven application coders even bipass it.Jun 05 11:17
oiaohmNeed to do a operation that would trip UAC.  No problem load a service.Jun 05 11:17
oiaohmUAC don't monitor that.Jun 05 11:17
_Hicham_great oiaohmJun 05 11:17
_Hicham_that is how an OS would beJun 05 11:17
_Hicham_u can bypass any restrictionJun 05 11:18
oiaohmIf UAC really worked that would not work.Jun 05 11:18
oiaohmSo its a trojan horse.  Makes you feel secure when you are a sitting duck.Jun 05 11:18
_Hicham_I don't agree to spread secure OSesJun 05 11:19
oiaohmWindows also has another design flaw.Jun 05 11:19
_Hicham_secure OSes are uselessJun 05 11:19
oiaohmI am a program I perform an action I don't have permission todo.  Under windows you get illegal operation.   Under Linux terminated without notice.Jun 05 11:20
oiaohmWhat way is the more secure method.Jun 05 11:20
oiaohmYep no probing under Linux unless you want to end up a dead process fast.Jun 05 11:21
_Hicham_under a console, you would see a messageJun 05 11:21
mib_dya64othey both accomplish the same goal, or result. the shutting down of the offending codeJun 05 11:21
oiaohmNo they don't.Jun 05 11:21
oiaohmIf a program will not be killed.Jun 05 11:21
oiaohmIt can probe until it locates a exploitable flaw mib_dya64oJun 05 11:21
mib_dya64oIf a program performs an illegal operation it is closed downJun 05 11:21
oiaohmApplication can catch the illegal operation.Jun 05 11:22
oiaohmWith windows SEH.Jun 05 11:22
oiaohmSo application remains running mib_dya64oJun 05 11:22
_Hicham_it is just a coding problemJun 05 11:22
oiaohmOS core of Linux killed the application.Jun 05 11:22
_Hicham_and I think you are talking about exception handlingJun 05 11:23
oiaohmIf you do a action against permissions set in a Linux LSM exception handling will not catch it.Jun 05 11:23
oiaohmProgram is just dead.  That simple.Jun 05 11:23
mib_dya64oif code throws and exception, good code will trap it and deal with it in an appropriate manner.Jun 05 11:23
oiaohmTo a point.Jun 05 11:23
mib_dya64oWhich may be more involved than just shutting down the appJun 05 11:23
_Hicham_not with SELinuxJun 05 11:24
oiaohmLets say applicaiton is asking to access core of system.Jun 05 11:24
_Hicham_did u use SELinux?Jun 05 11:24
oiaohmI use SELinux.  SELinux can be set not to give notice before termination.Jun 05 11:24
_Hicham_ahJun 05 11:24
_Hicham_so now u admit itJun 05 11:24
_Hicham_it is a choiceJun 05 11:25
oiaohmSo can smack by the way.Jun 05 11:25
_Hicham_rather than a flowJun 05 11:25
_Hicham_flawJun 05 11:25
_Hicham_the choices are thereJun 05 11:25
oiaohmrunning secure systems you will be running Selinux or smack.Jun 05 11:25
_Hicham_either SELinux or AppArmorJun 05 11:25
oiaohmnever apparmor.Jun 05 11:25
oiaohmIts flawed.Jun 05 11:25
oiaohmYou can walk straight past every protection apparmor puts up.Jun 05 11:26
_Hicham_Ubuntu uses AppArmorJun 05 11:26
_Hicham_like Novell distrosJun 05 11:26
oiaohmYep complete idiots.Jun 05 11:26
oiaohmNovell has switched to selinux by the way.Jun 05 11:26
_Hicham_SELinux is matureJun 05 11:26
_Hicham_it has been present in early version of FedoraJun 05 11:26
oiaohmSelinux and smack are both mainline kernel secuirty modules.Jun 05 11:26
oiaohmSo fairly well audited.Jun 05 11:26
oiaohmapparmor failed 5 attempts due to technical reason to be included.Jun 05 11:27
oiaohmAnd almost none of those problems have been fixed.Jun 05 11:27
_Hicham_Novell isn't an expert in securityJun 05 11:29
_Hicham_but they do great jobJun 05 11:30
_Hicham_they contribute a lot to kernelJun 05 11:30
oiaohmIf you want something lighter than selinux and smack that is path based the one to use is TOMOYO LinuxJun 05 11:30
_Hicham_they have made evolutionJun 05 11:30
_Hicham_I won't use non audited techsJun 05 11:31
oiaohmTOMOYO is audited.Jun 05 11:31
_Hicham_Novell also contributed to Network ManagerJun 05 11:31
oiaohmAnd will be in 2.6.30Jun 05 11:31
_Hicham_greatJun 05 11:31
_Hicham_is it a Japanese tech?Jun 05 11:31
oiaohmYep.Jun 05 11:31
oiaohmOnly recently started being tranlsated to english.Jun 05 11:32
_Hicham_greatJun 05 11:32
oiaohmDocument currently make it a little fun at moment.Jun 05 11:32
oiaohmBut by end of year it should be good.Jun 05 11:32
_Hicham_SELinux is matureJun 05 11:33
_Hicham_but it still have problems with ext4 filesystemJun 05 11:33
_Hicham_does TOMOYO support ext4 filesystem?Jun 05 11:33
oiaohmTOMOYO is path based like apparmor but it works.   So it not effected by filesystem at all.Jun 05 11:35
_Hicham_greatJun 05 11:35
schestowitzDetails of Microsoft’s Lobbying in Europe 05 11:38
oiaohm  << _Hicham_Jun 05 11:38
oiaohmTOMOYO also includes a learning mode that apparmor does not.Jun 05 11:39
_Hicham_I never trust novell techsJun 05 11:39
oiaohmIts still a young secuirty mod.   So it got a lot todo be for it can beat selinux.Jun 05 11:39
oiaohmAt least it should provide a user friendly basic level.Jun 05 11:40
schestowitzDoes anyone have tools for turning PDF to HTML? trmanco maybe?Jun 05 11:40
oiaohmOpenoffice + pdf import works on some schestowitzJun 05 11:42
mib_dya64oonline pdf to htmll conversion 05 11:42
oiaohmIf its my pdf I do have the odt schestowitz.Jun 05 11:43
_Hicham_schestowitz : do u want an automated script?Jun 05 11:43
schestowitzoiaohm: it needs JREJun 05 11:46
schestowitzI could never get it to workJun 05 11:47
schestowitztrmanco has some scriptsJun 05 11:47
schestowitzmib_dya64o: thanks!Jun 05 11:47
oiaohmYep 1.6 real sun java or it don't work.Jun 05 11:48
MinceRschestowitz: i can't find the crisis-themed logosJun 05 11:57
_Hicham_schestowitz : it works for me with OpenJDKJun 05 12:00
_Hicham_I just retested a pdfJun 05 12:02
schestowitzmib_dya64o: thanks, it's working wellJun 05 12:06
mib_dya64ogood to hear, no problems :)Jun 05 12:07
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schestowitzIt'll all be up soon. Loads ofg stuffJun 05 12:13
schestowitz*ofJun 05 12:13
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oiaohm  sometimes you just have to step back and go wow.Jun 05 12:16
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oiaohmThat reminds me.  I have see if I can add a geoip script to konversation I miss that from where I was using Chatzilla.Jun 05 12:31
oiaohm  That explains why some bot nets stopped.Jun 05 12:33
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schestowitzAfter 3 Months, Europe Lets Microsoft-Influenced EU Panel be Seen < >Jun 05 12:42
ushimitsudokiCheck out Hugo Lueders on the Open Source Software group. Here he remarking that open source recommendations are "unnecessary": 05 13:07
ushimitsudokiHis appendix in the working group is that same flavor of BSJun 05 13:07
schestowitzHe is anti-FOSSJun 05 13:08
schestowitzHugo Lueders that isJun 05 13:09
schestowitzNotoriousJun 05 13:09
schestowitzCrapJun 05 13:09
schestowitzI think I need to restart httdJun 05 13:09
schestowitzhttpdJun 05 13:09
ushimitsudokiBig time. More of his same song and dance here: 05 13:09
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schestowitzOK...Jun 05 13:10
schestowitzushimitsudoki: search BN on him :-)Jun 05 13:10
schestowitzBN brings together external linksJun 05 13:11
schestowitzHis past has some racist pro-communism something IIRCJun 05 13:11
schestowitzI'd have to check my notesJun 05 13:11
schestowitzPast as in decades agoJun 05 13:11
schestowitzThe EPO Does Not Work for European Citizens < >Jun 05 13:14
ushimitsudokiLooks like the "european software association" is spinning the same lines too. Why are these people even in an Open Source working group? I have to read more on thisJun 05 13:15
trmanco 05 13:23
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schestowitzushimitsudoki: thanks for lookingJun 05 13:32
schestowitztrmanco: wowJun 05 13:32
schestowitzIt DOES have good resultsJun 05 13:32
trmancobut the problem really isn't the resultsJun 05 13:33
schestowitz$Decision Engine sez: use GoogleJun 05 13:33
trmancosee what the have put on google.ptJun 05 13:33
trmancothe titleJun 05 13:33
schestowitzYes, I knowJun 05 13:33
trmancoit's sort of an offensive wordJun 05 13:33
oiaohm  BuggerJun 05 13:38
oiaohmWhat happens when you are on the wrong host schestowitz.Jun 05 13:39
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schestowitzoiaohm: they run from backupJun 05 13:46
schestowitzIt's out of dateJun 05 13:46
schestowitzWhere does Firefox store its dictionary files?Jun 05 13:49
schestowitzIt doesn't use aspell or ispellJun 05 13:50
oiaohm  << Here.  Of course you can add dictioraries as extentions schestowitzJun 05 13:57
schestowitzPatents Roundup: What Bilski Means to IBM, Microsoft; Patent Trolls Still Win < >Jun 05 14:03
schestowitzoiaohm: thanks, exactly what I neededJun 05 14:03
fewai always find aspell just doesnt have enough bredthJun 05 14:04
fewanot enought wordsJun 05 14:04
fewaim always adding legitimate wordsJun 05 14:04
schestowitzI don't have such a file in GNU//LinuxJun 05 14:06
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oiaohmHave you added any words? schestowitzJun 05 14:07
schestowitzYEs, manyJun 05 14:08
schestowitzThis article is from 2007Jun 05 14:08
schestowitzThe file may have movesJun 05 14:08
schestowitz*vedJun 05 14:08
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fewaschestowitz, 05 14:30
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fewaelection is tomarrowJun 05 14:30
tacone aggregated on the official ubuntu planetJun 05 14:30
fewacould me interestingJun 05 14:32
taconeinteresting comments also. many people are concernedJun 05 14:32
taconeschestowitz give a look.Jun 05 14:32
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schestowitzGroup post: How Novell Harms GNU/Linux Programming <  >Jun 05 14:39
fewaembrace, extend, extinguishJun 05 14:41
fewaclear as dayJun 05 14:41
schestowitztacone: thanks, queuedJun 05 14:41
taconeand declared.Jun 05 14:41
taconeschestowitz: nothing important. but no flame yet in the comments, just mono concerned peopleJun 05 14:42
taconeoh anyone knows a good way to create countdowns?Jun 05 14:45
fewawhat type?Jun 05 14:45
taconeend of the world in 15 daysJun 05 14:46
tacone14 days.. etc.Jun 05 14:46
fewa 05 14:46
fewahmm it doesnt have relive the momeny anymoreJun 05 14:47
taconei'm about to do something i don't know how many people will like :)Jun 05 14:47
fewaut there are alot of videosJun 05 14:48
fewajust put  javascript:partytime(); in the addressbarJun 05 14:50
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fewalook at the MONO licence notesJun 05 15:10
fewaNovell makes a public statement that puting software on ROM violates the LGPLJun 05 15:11
oiaohmROM remember what is a CD-R.Jun 05 15:12
*hicham is now known as _Hicham_Jun 05 15:12
oiaohmIt is a removeable ROM fewaJun 05 15:13
mib_dya64oputting what software ?Jun 05 15:13
oiaohmSo by Novell statement you cannot make a livecd out of it.Jun 05 15:13
fewayeah, its a interpretation that was not intended, nor used by anyone elseJun 05 15:13
oiaohmOnly flash sticks.Jun 05 15:13
oiaohmSo every ISO download of Ubuntu is illegal.Jun 05 15:13
mib_dya64oROM and CD-R are not the same thingsJun 05 15:13
fewa 05 15:13
oiaohmPressed CD are pure ROM mib_dya64oJun 05 15:14
oiaohmThat Ubuntu sends out by the way.Jun 05 15:14
fewaif you look at the GPL-3 it is very clear, that if the distrobuter cannot modify the software, there is no obligationJun 05 15:14
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mib_dya64oROM is an addressable IC (Chip), that is considered a computer component, or at best firmwareJun 05 15:14
oiaohmWrong.Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64obetween the difference between soft and hardwareJun 05 15:15
oiaohmCD-ROMJun 05 15:15
oiaohmWhat are the last 3 letters.Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64oCD is a serial media storage deviceJun 05 15:15
oiaohmROM is a class of storage.Jun 05 15:15
oiaohmDoes not have to be a IC chip.Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64onot a rondom access Read Only memoryJun 05 15:15
mib_dya64oits more a system component than a class of storage,Jun 05 15:16
MinceRnot as serial as tape :>Jun 05 15:16
mib_dya64oI would not call L1,l2,L3 caches as media storage.Jun 05 15:16
oiaohmCompact Disc, read-only-memory  << CD-ROM expanded mib_dya64oJun 05 15:16
oiaohmNotice something.Jun 05 15:16
oiaohmCD-ROM is a Compact Disc shaped ROM.Jun 05 15:17
oiaohmNovel clearly said no ROM.Jun 05 15:17
oiaohmThat includes CD-ROM.Jun 05 15:17
oiaohmIf they meant IC chips they should have limited it.Jun 05 15:18
fewathey are purposefully misinterpreting the LGPLJun 05 15:18
oiaohmRead only memory comes in a few different forms.Jun 05 15:18
mib_dya64owhat does the type of media have to do with a license ?Jun 05 15:18
fewaread the pastebinJun 05 15:18
mib_dya64oconsidering GPL is basically a copyright type contract.Jun 05 15:18
fewathats LICENCE from the mono tarballJun 05 15:18
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mib_dya64oif the code was written on a bit of scrap paper as long as it has the license and copyright notice its level IMHO :)Jun 05 15:20
mib_dya64olegalJun 05 15:20
fewathey are applying a stretched interpretation of 6.a, b, 7 of the lgpl.Jun 05 15:20
oiaohm  Pays to understand.Jun 05 15:21
mib_dya64odont need wikipedia to tell me what a ROM is my friendJun 05 15:22
oiaohmBasically CD-R CD-ROM DVD-R's DVD-ROM's are all ROM class.  cd-rw and other rewritable medias are not.Jun 05 15:22
fewaschestowitz, you reading thisJun 05 15:22
oiaohmThinking distributions used pressed cd/dvds that a pure rom there is no way they can ship mono.Jun 05 15:23
oiaohmIts like RAM the first large form of that was like CRT screens with a reader.  Using phospher lag to hold the data.   Neither ROM or RAM is linked to chips really.  They are just classifications.Jun 05 15:25
schestowitzfewa: what about?Jun 05 15:25
mib_dya64oI was just making the point that in this context that I would assume they were refering to ROM and RAM inside a Computer and  not removable media, i could be wrongJun 05 15:25
oiaohmYou don't assume with law.Jun 05 15:25
fewa 05 15:26
oiaohmIf you take the max meaning with law.Jun 05 15:26
oiaohmAlso bios roms on a lot of devices are removal media too from there sockets mib_dya64oJun 05 15:26
fewa^^ thats the LICENCE file of the mono tarballJun 05 15:26
schestowitzOh, I see..Jun 05 15:27
fewaif that doesn't make people see the legal aggression of mono, i don't know what willJun 05 15:28
schestowitzfewa: but what to point out?Jun 05 15:28
schestowitzWhere is the ambiguous part?Jun 05 15:28
mib_dya64omuray code and paper tape, punched cards were soe of the ealiest I/O and the memory was more like dynamic RAM, but was magnetic core memory that required constant refreshingJun 05 15:29
*schestowitz does a post on mono ATMJun 05 15:29
fewa<oiaohm> Thinking distributions used pressed cd/dvds that a pure rom there is no way they can ship mono.Jun 05 15:29
oiaohmExamples of meaning under law don't have to be counted.  consider software burned into a ROM, systems where end users would not be able to upgradeJun 05 15:30
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oiaohmFrom the consider to upgrade is what you are not allowed to do.Jun 05 15:31
oiaohmAfter that they give examples.Jun 05 15:31
oiaohmYep loop hole contract.Jun 05 15:31
fewabut even if the software is burned onto ROM, why would that violate the LGPLJun 05 15:32
mib_dya64oIf you read it oiaohm you'll see they are refering to the IC type ROM in embedded systems not CD-ROMSJun 05 15:32
mib_dya64oI dont see why it wouldJun 05 15:32
oiaohmBy law the examples don't count.Jun 05 15:32
oiaohmIf they wanted to exclude a rom type they should have said.Jun 05 15:32
mib_dya64oIm not sure about all of the LGPL but if its burnt into a ROM (chip) and you are unable to read it it may violate the view the code bit?Jun 05 15:33
oiaohmThey should have put chipJun 05 15:34
oiaohmThey did not.Jun 05 15:34
oiaohmSo they screwed it up.Jun 05 15:34
mib_dya64oThey did say it, and used ROM as the exampleJun 05 15:34
oiaohmLaw.Jun 05 15:34
oiaohmThose examples only are a guide have no legal meaning.Jun 05 15:34
fewaoiaohm, still, they are intrepreting that executing LGPL code with non-GPL-compatible code on a ROM is a violation of the LGPLJun 05 15:35
oiaohmCommon mistake people make with device licence contracts mib_dya64o.Jun 05 15:35
oiaohmIs doing something that is not in the examples then getting hammered for breach of contract.Jun 05 15:36
oiaohmthey trying to argue the examples suggested that it was not this.Jun 05 15:36
oiaohmLegally it don't hold.Jun 05 15:36
oiaohmIf my view is wrong Novell need to release a statement proving legal clarity on the issue.Jun 05 15:38
mib_dya64oThats what that statement is, I guess if the FSF does not agree with it, they will not ratify it, or they will take appropriate actionJun 05 15:39
schestowitzSome illustrative images in "Microsoft is Using Mono and MonoDevelop to Leverage Windows and .NET" < >Jun 05 15:40
oiaohmReally at min Novell need to be requested to publicly clear up that rom statement.Jun 05 15:41
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mib_dya64oDid you read it ? its quite clear.Jun 05 15:42
oiaohm#Jun 05 15:43
oiaohman embedded console, a game console that imposes limitationsJun 05 15:43
oiaohm#Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm        on the distribution and access to the code, a phone platformJun 05 15:43
oiaohm#Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm        that prevents end users from upgrading MoonlightJun 05 15:43
oiaohmall that is example.Jun 05 15:43
oiaohmNo legal meaning mib_dya64oJun 05 15:43
oiaohmYou say clear its quite clear ROM format is forbid.Jun 05 15:44
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oiaohmThat would be the contract take of what they wrote.Jun 05 15:44
fewajust a note, because of the way the LGPL works, additional rules cannot be attached to it, what novell is doing here is not alliterating contract statements, but instead pontificating their interpretation of it.Jun 05 15:46
fewaperhapsJun 05 15:46
oiaohmStill it need to be cleared up.Jun 05 15:47
fewa*interpretation of the copyright licenceJun 05 15:47
oiaohmsystem is also one of the worst words you use in a contract without a define.Jun 05 15:47
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oiaohmIn this case due to system not being defined it could reduce down to being the cd itself.Jun 05 15:48
fewaoiaohm, its not a contractJun 05 15:48
*schestowitz RUBS EYESJun 05 15:48
schestowitzNo way: (British Government Says No To Three Strikes)Jun 05 15:48
schestowitzDid they get Gordy et al tipsy?Jun 05 15:49
schestowitzoiaohm, others: (FTC Shuts Down Popular Scammer ISP; But Doesn't Seem To Be Impacting Spam That Much)Jun 05 15:50
schestowitzThat's the host of FSDaily and FS MagazineJun 05 15:50
oiaohmThat is a contract.  fewa.  Shortest contract is 1 line of text.Jun 05 15:50
schestowitz"From the details, it sounds similar to the story from late last year when upstream service providers pulled the plug on another hosting firm, McColo (due to public pressure, not gov't intervention), and cut off huge amounts of spam, since so many spammers relied on botnets through McColo."Jun 05 15:50
schestowitzBN has a 1773 host nowJun 05 15:51
schestowitz1337Jun 05 15:51
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oiaohmSomething with what I do fewa and mib_dya64o is that I require a full understanding of contract law.   Assessment and aquirement of software to use embedded.  Lot of people fail to spot contracts.Jun 05 15:53
fewaoiaohm, but the lgpl states that it itsself cannot be encumbered by additional restrictionsJun 05 15:55
fewaso any contract or intrepretation applied by novell must lie within the confines of the LGPLJun 05 15:55
oiaohmROM state with lgpl has not been tested in court of law.Jun 05 15:56
oiaohmSo applying the restriction to rom could be betting that the wording of LGPL does not protect rom usage.Jun 05 15:57
fewaexactlyJun 05 15:57
oiaohmSo Novell little extra contract there could be valid.Jun 05 15:57
mib_dya64oThats what they are saying, they are saying as they cannot comply with LGPL, they will re-license it for specific situations like embedded consolsJun 05 15:57
mib_dya64oThere not adding to the LGPL, they are re-licensing it.Jun 05 15:58
fewamib_dya64o, not in that documentJun 05 15:58
oiaohmThe addon contract reactions with LGPL is grey.Jun 05 15:59
schestowitzMajor Novell news!! "The civil suit filed by Kerry and Pamela Novell claims that Darin E. Wanless watched Pamela Novell undress through her window." 05 15:59
schestowitzOoohhh. Nakes Novell...Jun 05 15:59
schestowitz*Naked..Jun 05 15:59
oiaohmIt could be really bad to presume its wrong then it turns out solid.Jun 05 15:59
mib_dya64ogives Novell the flexibility to relicense the code for enbedded systems static linking or commercial settings where the LGPL can not be used.Jun 05 16:00
mib_dya64oshould be in quotesJun 05 16:00
oiaohmThe or commerical setting.Jun 05 16:00
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oiaohmDoes that cover other commerical distributions.Jun 05 16:01
oiaohmThere are a lot of little nasty questions.Jun 05 16:01
oiaohmIt has to be one of the most vague contracts I have seen.Jun 05 16:01
mib_dya64oThis code is dual licensed under the LGPL or commercial licenses.Jun 05 16:01
mib_dya64oagain quotesJun 05 16:01
fewaoiaohm, purposefullyJun 05 16:01
mib_dya64oyesJun 05 16:02
oiaohmMy training makes me read it as it worst.Jun 05 16:02
oiaohmNot allow myself to read it with hope they are kind.Jun 05 16:02
oiaohmHope they are kind is how to really get into trouble.Jun 05 16:02
schestowitzLots of Mono today... I hope you're reading us, but just in case:Jun 05 16:03
schestowitz 05 16:03
schestowitz 05 16:03
schestowitz 05 16:03
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oiaohmlicence alone on mono should give any commercial distributions second thoughts.Jun 05 16:05
mib_dya64oif history has taught me anything, (and it probably hasn't) it's that licenses can be changed anytime to almost anything.Jun 05 16:08
schestowitzExcellent Novell analysis from Dr. Oliver Diedrich: 05 16:08
oiaohmRule one of software acquirement licence vague don't walk, run for the nearest exist.Jun 05 16:08
oiaohmexist/exitJun 05 16:09
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oiaohmIf novel had not provided that rom statement in a count of law you could have argued fair interperation.Jun 05 16:10
oiaohmwith LGPL and basically walked.Jun 05 16:10
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oiaohmmib_dya64o: licenses can only be changed if number you are the owner of the code.  number two the licence gives you permission to change it.Jun 05 16:14
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oiaohmBut a licence is a contract.  So if you where granted a license with X Y an Z terms it cannot be changed after you have been given it.Jun 05 16:15
satiperaHello all, Roy I have had you on RSS for about a week or so now. Have you ever been on the receiving end of any legal action?Jun 05 16:15
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mib_dya64oI assume when you "change" the license you are no longer bound by the previous license, as long as you own the original code and Hay satiperaJun 05 16:16
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oiaohmYou cannot take back licences all ready granted under the previous mib_dya64oJun 05 16:17
oiaohmUnless that was written into the licenceJun 05 16:17
mib_dya64oyes, you can ask the BitKeeper guy,,Jun 05 16:18
oiaohmBitKeeper licence had a clause allowing it.Jun 05 16:18
oiaohmYes why it pays to read licences carefully.Jun 05 16:18
mib_dya64ofew if any licenses would not have such a cluse, including the GPLJun 05 16:19
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oiaohmGPL only applies if you break GPL's conditions.Jun 05 16:20
fewacalling such a license a license is ludicris, it subservianceJun 05 16:20
oiaohmSo GPL is basically for life.Jun 05 16:20
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oiaohmOk at last 70 years after the authors death.Jun 05 16:21
oiaohmlast/leastJun 05 16:21
fewa:PJun 05 16:21
oiaohmBut for our case life.Jun 05 16:21
fewathe last authors deathJun 05 16:21
oiaohmYep.Jun 05 16:21
mib_dya64oIt too can (and has) been changed, and its up to interpretation what "IN THE SPIRIT" means in strict legal termsJun 05 16:21
fewaso when the code no longer runsJun 05 16:21
oiaohmAnd we are long gone.Jun 05 16:21
oiaohmFrom out point of view life.Jun 05 16:22
fewamib_dya64o, it is not changed, it mearly gives licensors a _option_ to move to a new licenseJun 05 16:22
mib_dya64othe LGPL ?Jun 05 16:22
fewavery important point to take note ofJun 05 16:22
fewathe IN THE SPIRIT, new licences clauseJun 05 16:22
oiaohmLGPL 2.1 or latter clause.Jun 05 16:22
mib_dya64oyes that is an extension of the GPLv3Jun 05 16:22
oiaohmNot all GPL have the latter.Jun 05 16:23
oiaohmNovell releases a lot locked to a version.Jun 05 16:23
fewalinus on git places himself as the decider of weather it can be relicenced under a new GNU licenseJun 05 16:24
oiaohmAnd the Linux kernel.Jun 05 16:24
oiaohmIt don't have the or latter option either.Jun 05 16:24
fewa;a=blob;f=COPYINGJun 05 16:26
fewaso it would apply retroactively if he approved of a new licenseJun 05 16:26
mib_dya64ofor the Kernel ? i have doubts if he would be able to re-license it due to the large number of copyright holdersJun 05 16:27
oiaohmThere is a legal way todo it.Jun 05 16:28
oiaohmBut its slow.Jun 05 16:28
mib_dya64oalso a software way to do it, find who you can, and re-write the code copyrighted to those you cant find or who wont give permissionJun 05 16:29
schestowitzsatipera: hiJun 05 16:29
oiaohmYou would have to advertise the change basically world wide.  Then wait 7 years before you could apply it if no one answered against it.Jun 05 16:29
schestowitzHold on, just catching up...Jun 05 16:29
oiaohmOr do the rewrite mib_dya64oJun 05 16:29
schestowitzsatipera: no legal documents sent to me, no... I think PJ got someJun 05 16:29
schestowitzChina blocking websites on Tiananmen anniversary 05 16:29
schestowitzKind of like AUssie next yearJun 05 16:30
schestowitzThe ConroyFilter(R)Jun 05 16:30
fewaamerica has been doing thankfully better on that frontJun 05 16:30
fewa(although it is no paradise)Jun 05 16:30
schestowitzSUSE people sometimes rattle the cage, with involvement of Novell people.Jun 05 16:31
schestowitzBut nothing legal. They don't open that can of wormsJun 05 16:31
mib_dya64owhen your prime minister speaks chinese, what do you expect from Australia.Jun 05 16:32
mib_dya64oOn the leaked banned list was "" because it had "teen" in it, but its a teen cancer helping site and group !!Jun 05 16:34
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fewageeze teen is a banned wordJun 05 16:36
fewahow much myspace does that block? or are there "free speech zones" that dont get blocked?Jun 05 16:37
trmancoI've just installed rockbox on my ipodJun 05 16:37
schestowitzteen can be 19Jun 05 16:37
trmanco:)Jun 05 16:37
schestowitziWHat?!!Jun 05 16:38
trmancoI do have an ipod you know :-PJun 05 16:39
schestowitz 05 16:39
trmancoit was a presentJun 05 16:39
fewaschestowitz, thats not my point, my point is that they are banning speech of a whole generation of people just because they identify themselvesJun 05 16:39
schestowitzMinceR's g/f: 05 16:39
trmancoI hvan't used it in a long time though, more that a yearJun 05 16:39
fewaits like banning the word gay, or liberal, or christianJun 05 16:39
trmancoI finally put it to good use with free softwareJun 05 16:40
schestowitzfewa: the word "boycott" is strongJun 05 16:40
schestowitzALso "protest"Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz"Union organisers"Jun 05 16:40
schestowitzooooooh.. NASTY!Jun 05 16:40
schestowitzThose agitators..Jun 05 16:40
fewasexy union actionJun 05 16:40
schestowitzIn Russia, a lot of the news MUST be positiveJun 05 16:40
schestowitzfewa: TEEN union actionJun 05 16:41
schestowitzteen gang actionJun 05 16:41
schestowitz*ERRRR*Jun 05 16:41
*schestowitz flagged as offenderJun 05 16:41
taconeschestowitz: tomorrow i'll be awayJun 05 16:56
taconei scheduled a post about open sourcing launchpad with a countdown to embed on sitesJun 05 16:57
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nicktasticAnyone know what happened to fsdaily?vJun 05 17:17
satiperaRoy I just read your answer, I thought perhaps you were like Private Eye mag worried about the mail in the morning in case of letters from lawyers.Jun 05 17:18
schestowitznicktastic: host diedJun 05 17:19
schestowitzshut down by FTC for spamJun 05 17:19
schestowitzSo FSDaily movedJun 05 17:20
schestowitzsatipera: what would Novell go after?Jun 05 17:20
schestowitzTrademarks in domain name?Jun 05 17:20
schestowitzThey should endure criticism like grown-upsJun 05 17:20
nicktasticschestowitz: Oh, that one in CaliforniaJun 05 17:21
nicktasticThanks for the infoJun 05 17:21
schestowitz"From the details, it sounds similar to the story from late last year when upstream service providers pulled the plug on another hosting firm, McColo (due to public pressure, not gov't intervention), and cut off huge amounts of spam, since so many spammers relied on botnets through McColo."Jun 05 17:24
schestowitz (FTC Shuts Down Popular Scammer ISP; But Doesn't Seem To Be Impacting Spam That Much)Jun 05 17:24
schestowitz 05 17:25
schestowitz"The bankruptcy of GM will cause  unnecessary pain and unfairness  — for instance, to people who bought cars with defects — and could easily have been avoided. Even worse, although the US will take majority control of GM, Obama has no interest in changing the foolish priorities that landed GM in bankruptcy."Jun 05 17:26
schestowitz What almost amuses me is that he doesn't talk about the layoffsJun 05 17:26
schestowitzWhere will women go now? < >Jun 05 17:27
schestowitzUN Rejects Calls for Sri Lanka War Crimes Inquiry  < >Jun 05 17:28
MinceRschestowitz: -_-Jun 05 17:28
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satiperaRoy, good point it seems balanced and accurate, besides they could not go after every who hosts the informationJun 05 17:39
schestowitzFS Daily is down again..Jun 05 17:39
satiperaevery personJun 05 17:39
schestowitzCrusades... meh.. 05 17:40
satiperabye all, have funJun 05 17:40
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schestowitzARMs race: Qualcomm on Smartbooks: Smartphone Experience in a Larger Form Factor < >Jun 05 17:42
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zer0c00ltry typing "linux" in :DJun 05 17:44
schestowitzI never visited the BongJun 05 17:45
schestowitzB0rg's Bong.comJun 05 17:45
trmanco 05 17:46
trmanconice and relevantJun 05 17:46
schestowitzIs Acer using Moblin or Android? Now I'm confused.. 05 17:49
schestowitzOpera looks nice.. I'd use it if it was Free software... 05 17:50
schestowitztrmanco: new Linux Caixa Magica 14 is outJun 05 17:52
schestowitzWorth blogging in openmania perhapsJun 05 17:53
trmancoyeah, I've read that, will do, thanksJun 05 17:53
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schestowitzThis guy calls Vista7 just "Vista 2": 05 17:56
schestowitztrmanco: did you see the Spanish pres video?Jun 05 17:56
schestowitzDaemonFC: 05 17:56
trmancoschestowitz, of what?Jun 05 17:57
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'm not quite sure what to make about thatJun 05 17:57
schestowitzNot seen those who use the military to spread their religion?Jun 05 17:59
schestowitzLike spreading bibles in Afghanistan?Jun 05 17:59
schestowitztrmanco: 05 17:59
schestowitzThis reminds of me the Portugates incident last yearJun 05 18:00
mib_dya64olike the salvation army ?Jun 05 18:00
DaemonFCschestowitz: WordPerfect Mail says "Copyright Yahoo"Jun 05 18:00
DaemonFCis this some rebranded thing?Jun 05 18:00
schestowitzMicrosoft loves Spain like a poodle loves a rubber ball that it's humping.Jun 05 18:00
schestowitzMicrosoft looks at everything it touches asking, "how can we monetise this?"Jun 05 18:01
schestowitzEven charitiesJun 05 18:01
schestowitzLike the Aussie ones that boycott it nowJun 05 18:01
schestowitzmib_dya64o: I guess so. It leads to resentment there. Why make things even worse in Afghanistan?Jun 05 18:01
trmancohehJun 05 18:01
trmancogood for extremaduraJun 05 18:02
trmanco:DJun 05 18:02
schestowitzYeahJun 05 18:02
trmancoit seems they didn't go with the flowJun 05 18:02
schestowitzBill Gates... Bill Gates.........Bill Gates.....Bill Gates...Jun 05 18:02
schestowitzI think he has a man.crash();Jun 05 18:02
schestowitz*crushJun 05 18:02
trmancololJun 05 18:02
MinceR"I was playing Unreal Tournament (the old one, not any of the 200x series, so not a hugely intensive game) in coherence mode, and my computer shut down to prevent heat damage."Jun 05 18:03
MinceRsounds like crApple failed at coolingJun 05 18:03
schestowitzBN will soon go past the 20k comments milestoneJun 05 18:04
MinceRand reducing clock speed to save the hw without shutting downJun 05 18:04
schestowitzOver 6500 posts nowJun 05 18:04
mib_dya64oHAL + 1 = IBM......  VMS + 1 = WNT (Win NT)Jun 05 18:04
schestowitzMinceR: bullJun 05 18:04
MinceRor maybe it just crashedJun 05 18:04
schestowitzApple is coolJun 05 18:04
MinceRlolJun 05 18:04
schestowitzJust not *that* kind of cool.Jun 05 18:04
MinceRlolJun 05 18:04
MinceRit's no kind of coolJun 05 18:04
schestowitzKeep apples in the fringeJun 05 18:04
MinceRwell, except for the conformists' kind of "cool"Jun 05 18:05
schestowitzKeep mainstream at the fringeJun 05 18:05
schestowitz*fridge ^^Jun 05 18:05
MinceR:DJun 05 18:05
MinceRnice typoJun 05 18:05
mib_dya64oyou were right the first time LOLJun 05 18:05
schestowitzMinceR: that's Mac mentalityJun 05 18:05
schestowitzRealiy: Mac crashesJun 05 18:05
schestowitzFanboy: Apple saved me [sic] dayJun 05 18:05
mib_dya64othat could be a good linux motto !!!Jun 05 18:05
MinceRso i was saying that maybe it just crashed and he decided it "shut down to prevent heat damage" because he can't believe that macs can and do crashJun 05 18:06
schestowitz"zong!! it was oiverheating, I tells ya!"Jun 05 18:06
MinceRindeedJun 05 18:06
schestowitz*LOL*Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz" maybe it just crashed and he decided it "shut down to prevent heat damage""Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz"Sheesh... let's make it seem like a suicide"Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz"Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers* Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers* Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers* Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers*"Jun 05 18:07
schestowitzLet me find something..Jun 05 18:07
schestowitz 05 18:07
schestowitzEnjoy. Watch how all the fanboys and Apple execs jump to defend Jobs after accounting fraudJun 05 18:08
schestowitzOops.Jun 05 18:08
schestowitz 05 18:08
*schestowitz never had him system shut down for "cooling". Ever.Jun 05 18:09
schestowitz└─(18:09 $)─> uptimeJun 05 18:10
schestowitz 18:09:24 up 93 days,  3:27,  2 users,  load average: 1.65, 1.28, 1.16Jun 05 18:10
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MinceRi hope he doesn't get away with thisJun 05 18:13
schestowitz "He said that the Vole wants to "redefine mini-notebooks" that Intel has categorized as netbooks. The new Volish term will be "low cost small notebook PC".Jun 05 18:21
schestowitz"Jun 05 18:21
schestowitzMS is determined to kill netbooksJun 05 18:21
schestowitzSilly buggerJun 05 18:21
schestowitzHe can't ignore ARMJun 05 18:22
schestowitzMinceR: he's rich. In the US he can get away with everything, even murder (c/f OJ)Jun 05 18:22
schestowitzNext week I will post some Ballmer crimesJun 05 18:23
schestowitz "HARDWARE FLOGGER Dell has been sued by Lebanon, the town, not the country, for failing to deliver promised jobs in exchange for tax breaks."Jun 05 18:24
mib_dya64othose crazy Lebanese, its all Clingers fault.Jun 05 18:25
schestowitzMalware steals ATM accounts and PIN codes  < >Jun 05 18:26
schestowitzmib_dya64o: should see Japan..Jun 05 18:26
schestowitz 05 18:26
schestowitzBasically, if I read this correctly, you can't put women in a FPSJun 05 18:27
schestowitzThat would in fact count as "rape"Jun 05 18:27
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fewajapaneese stuff can get pretty nasty schestowitzJun 05 18:28
schestowitzAcer Android netbook to dual boot Windows < > But Microsoft says "netbooks" are no more.Jun 05 18:28
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schestowitzfewa: katanas?Jun 05 18:29
fewathe game regulationJun 05 18:29
schestowitzOh, I see. I thought you meant they were more violent\Jun 05 18:30
schestowitzSame in GermanyJun 05 18:30
fewamicrosoft is going to try to prevent netbooks from getting betterJun 05 18:32
schestowitzThere's also that sword incident where a gamer from japan warned in IM before going mad in the streets killing real peopleJun 05 18:32
schestowitzfewa: or cheaperJun 05 18:32
schestowitzARM foils itJun 05 18:32
schestowitzMicrosoft is not sure what to doJun 05 18:32
schestowitzIt's losing a lot of money thereJun 05 18:32
fewathey have no control over ARMJun 05 18:32
schestowitzIntel must not help their cartelJun 05 18:32
fewabut still... dell's new netbooks arnt neccicarily better, but they cost moreJun 05 18:33
fewathe mini 10, 12 over the discontinues 9Jun 05 18:33
schestowitzIt is a real tragedy that ExxonMobil is destroying the world while AstroTurfing to deny it "According to ExxonMobil's 2008 Corporate Citizenship Report and Worldwide Giving Report, the oil giant is still funding global warming skeptics. "Jun 05 18:35
schestowitztravesty ratherJun 05 18:35
DaemonFC2 TB hard drive for $229Jun 05 18:36
schestowitzAll that proprietary hardware is messy businessJun 05 18:36
DaemonFChehJun 05 18:36
fewa 05 18:36
fewashell pays out googleJun 05 18:36
schestowitzCan it?Jun 05 18:36
schestowitzgates invests in that killing of Nigerian childrenJun 05 18:36
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 05 18:36
schestowitzThrough BP for the most partJun 05 18:36
fewaor they changed their rangsJun 05 18:36
DaemonFCI still haven't managed to overrun 500 gigsJun 05 18:37
schestowitzVideos here: 05 18:37
schestowitzU.S. Turns to Body Counts in Afghanistan < >Jun 05 18:38
schestowitz"But when the Heartland Institute talks about "real science," it is hard to ignore the fact that for years they have defended the policy agenda of the tobacco industry without disclosing that they were funded by Phillip Morris." 05 18:39
schestowitzThe PR industry is criminalJun 05 18:39
schestowitzVery much so,Jun 05 18:39
schestowitzBut the press won't cover itJun 05 18:39
schestowitzBecause, needless to say, it's part of this plotJun 05 18:39
fewagoogle has given corporate sites generally huge pagerank AFAIKJun 05 18:40
fewahowever it works idkJun 05 18:41
DaemonFCschestowitz: Have you mentioned anything about Microsoft's non-standard pop3 setup?Jun 05 18:41
DaemonFCon Live/HotmailJun 05 18:41
DaemonFCthe only non-Microsoft email client I've successfully attached to it with was SeaMonkey Mail/ThunderbirdJun 05 18:42
DaemonFCif your email client doesn't support TLS, it won't workJun 05 18:43
fewadon't make your name include a owned name of another organizationJun 05 18:43
schestowitzfewa: when?Jun 05 18:43
schestowitzGoogle?Jun 05 18:43
fewaie foo@hotmailJun 05 18:43
schestowitzGoogle is now lobbying for more standardsJun 05 18:43
schestowitzShoving SVG into IEJun 05 18:43
fewayou have given control when you do thatJun 05 18:43
schestowitzCause MS won't do itJun 05 18:43
fewagoogle is doing some really great stuffJun 05 18:43
schestowitzCould Vinje and others in ECIS force Microsoft to finally support Web standards as timbl requests? SVG is a very basic component that's required by Web applications, i.e. the "middleware" which terrifies Microsoft.Jun 05 18:43
fewawave is greatJun 05 18:44
fewaopen standardsJun 05 18:44
schestowitzDaemonFC: they changed a while backJun 05 18:44
schestowitzNo access from some old mail clientJun 05 18:44
schestowitzI've just contacted IBM re SVGJun 05 18:44
DaemonFCWordPerfect Mail can't connect, and neither can EudoraJun 05 18:44
schestowitzThey should tell Bill and Steve: stop fighting the Web or face prisonJun 05 18:44
schestowitzThese people are doing damage to technology like no other companyJun 05 18:45
DaemonFCIs Microsoft just doing this to make it difficult to not use their clients?Jun 05 18:45
schestowitzMicrosoft is about greed, not thirst for knowledgeJun 05 18:45
schestowitzMiddleAgesSoftJun 05 18:45
fewaschestowitz, bill gave another incriminating despositionJun 05 18:45
schestowitzWhen?Jun 05 18:45
schestowitzNovell?Jun 05 18:45
fewathe one analyzed on groklawJun 05 18:45
schestowitzBilG...Jun 05 18:45
fewayeahJun 05 18:45
schestowitztagline hmmm...Jun 05 18:45
schestowitzThe criminal everyone lovesJun 05 18:46
schestowitzThe press deemphasises the crimesJun 05 18:46
schestowitzIt's a tabooJun 05 18:46
schestowitzAnd they attack "dissent"Jun 05 18:46
schestowitzHis taxx-evading scheme gets gloryJun 05 18:46
schestowitzfewa: yes, I saw thatJun 05 18:46
schestowitzChina's hi-tech answer to cheats < > China's mass-handling of everything is daunting at times.Jun 05 18:48
schestowitzI love how the Linux VP of IBM is a total n00b at Linux.. 05 18:49
schestowitzLiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinuxJun 05 18:50
schestowitzleech.. nuxJun 05 18:50
EruaranWe had an Intel rep in the other dayJun 05 18:50
EruaranHe mentioned no one is selling many i7'sJun 05 18:51
schestowitzIBM lets all the 'beardies' and 'hippies' do the heavy lifting and then it uses its patent 'in-damn!-icaication" to maket Linux so-looo-sions without the name LinuxJun 05 18:51
EruaranWe said we wereJun 05 18:51
EruaranWe mentioned that its very fast and powerfulJun 05 18:51
Eruaranand no jokeJun 05 18:51
schestowitzEruaran: why would they sell it?Jun 05 18:51
Eruaranhe wasn't being funnyJun 05 18:51
Eruaranhe said, "is it ?"Jun 05 18:51
schestowitzIt's heavy, it's more than a desktop needs, and it's expensiveJun 05 18:51
EruaranSome of our clients have plenty of use for itJun 05 18:52
schestowitzIntel is weirdJun 05 18:52
schestowitzMaybe a marketing guyJun 05 18:52
schestowitzThe engineers know their stuff better. They also use LinuxJun 05 18:52
Eruaranyeah he knew nothing about the i7 :PJun 05 18:52
schestowitzThe managers.. well, they are criminalsJun 05 18:52
schestowitzAnd unless the management is tossed the company is a dead thug walkingJun 05 18:52
schestowitzBecause China will run it overJun 05 18:52
EruaranHe just goes around telling us about the latest deals and giving us postersJun 05 18:52
schestowitzNaaa...Jun 05 18:53
schestowitzPass on Intel where possibleJun 05 18:53
schestowitzAMD has 6-corersJun 05 18:53
EruaranyesJun 05 18:53
fewai like my Phenom quadJun 05 18:54
fewasoo cheapJun 05 18:54
fewaintels are overpricedJun 05 18:54
schestowitzBut they bear 'the' logoJun 05 18:56
schestowitzThe CriminalInside logo/sloganJun 05 18:56
schestowitzOr LeechAheadJun 05 18:56
fewawhich intel spend millions making a consumer trademarkJun 05 18:56
fewaall gotten from their monopoly moneyJun 05 18:56
fewahonestly, i dont think users give a shitJun 05 18:57
fewaimportant thing is that intel amd-exclusion deals will stopJun 05 18:59
fewa*is stopJun 05 18:59
mib_dya64ojust noticed the KDE and the qt app suite, GIMP, Inkscape, scribus ect have been ported fully over to windows 11Jun 05 19:01
mib_dya64o!! *11Jun 05 19:01
fewayou mean 3.1Jun 05 19:01
MinceRyou mean !!!!111!11!11oneJun 05 19:01
mib_dya64oyes typo,,,,,  ment !!!!Jun 05 19:02
DaemonFCcontig.exe "C:\Tools\MinceR.exe"Jun 05 19:02
DaemonFC:PJun 05 19:02
mib_dya64oThey recoment "Stable 4.2.1Jun 05 19:03
schestowitzYahoo CEO open says quite openly that Ballmer has 'Google envy' (changing the phrase "penis envy")Jun 05 19:05
schestowitzBallmer's is obsessed with Google's penisJun 05 19:06
schestowitzMaybe he'll get over it by hopping mad on stage and shouting that he's the greatest man in the univrse.Jun 05 19:07
*Omar871 ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 05 19:07
MinceRdeltree /y "C:\Program Files\Tools\DaemonFC\"Jun 05 19:07
schestowitzAnalyst says economy leading some users to bypass Office 2007 < >Jun 05 19:07
schestowitzErrrrrrrrrrrr.. maybe Office 2007 just sucksJun 05 19:07
schestowitzMaybe it's not the economyJun 05 19:07
schestowitzMinceR: file not found. Try undeleteJun 05 19:08
MinceRformat c: /u /autotestJun 05 19:09
MinceR(just to be sure)Jun 05 19:09
*Omar87 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jun 05 19:24
schestowitzWhy is this in Linux Journal? 05 19:24
DaemonFCI've been editing Privoxy's default filters to fix WinampJun 05 19:26
DaemonFCfor some reason Privoxy can't log anything in the Windows buildJun 05 19:26
DaemonFCit used toJun 05 19:26
schestowitzMicrosoft Windows botnets are used to impact the elections in Britain. 05 19:27
fewaDaemonFC, i find privoxy too broken to useJun 05 19:28
fewaadblock works much betterJun 05 19:28
fewawith cslite and noscriptJun 05 19:28
DaemonFCPrivoxy is basically good for being unbloated and effectiveJun 05 19:28
DaemonFCbut unfortunatelyt you will need to step in and build your own whitelistsJun 05 19:29
DaemonFC*unfortunatelyJun 05 19:29
fewanoscript/cslite/adblock is much easierJun 05 19:29
DaemonFCmost junk busting software is at least 4-40 times the size in RAMJun 05 19:29
DaemonFCAdblock Plus causes Firefox to leak more RAMJun 05 19:29
DaemonFCbut that's the price you pay for simpleJun 05 19:30
fewayou can also run privaxy on a serverJun 05 19:30
schestowitzEruaran: Core i7 bumped to 3.33GHz < > Not sure what people need this for. It's a niche marketJun 05 19:30
DaemonFCyes, Privoxy is not really all that friendly to configure, but it's far more useful once you figure it outJun 05 19:30
fewahow man y cores in those things? 4?Jun 05 19:30
fewaDaemonFC, also has a horrible languageJun 05 19:31
fewacustom syntaxJun 05 19:31
DaemonFCI've found that the default filters work well for me with some whitelist tweakingJun 05 19:31
DaemonFCon a case by case basisJun 05 19:31
DaemonFCPrivoxy can also be thought of as a security tool since it filters out malicious scripts and HTMLJun 05 19:32
fewathe scripts are not malicious against firefoxJun 05 19:32
schestowitzWTF? Microsoft shill Gavin Clarke takes something that is all about Linux and puts "Microsoft" in the headline. 05 19:32
fewaand they are oldJun 05 19:32
DaemonFCit has an entire section that does nothing but filter out malicious stuff that only affects IE 6 :)Jun 05 19:33
DaemonFClike the Nimda wormJun 05 19:33
fewayeah, only useful if you use broken browsersJun 05 19:33
DaemonFCwell, I was looking at the examples of the stuff it filters out specifically citing IE 6Jun 05 19:33
DaemonFCand the vast majority of it would fail to work in IE 8 anywayJun 05 19:34
fewawow schestowitzJun 05 19:34
DaemonFCbut it's only maybe 10-15k of plain text if thatJun 05 19:34
fewain order to push microsoft's pressure-regulation of netbooksJun 05 19:34
DaemonFCso it's worth keeping around to make sure nothing can slip throughJun 05 19:34
DaemonFCmost of the privacy/security concerns no longer actually target the browser, but rather things like Java, Flash, Silverlight, .Net, and various plugins like VLC or Windows Media PlayerJun 05 19:36
DaemonFCthose are far more difficult to contain than the browser itselfJun 05 19:36
DaemonFCso basically the more "active content" plug ins you have in your browser, the more security problems you are addingJun 05 19:37
schestowitzEruaran: BenQ backs Android < >Jun 05 19:37
DaemonFCthat goes with Firefox extensions tooJun 05 19:37
DaemonFCas they can make the browser do anything they wantJun 05 19:37
schestowitzfewa: pls elaborateJun 05 19:37
DaemonFCThere's no reason why I couldn't make a Firefox extension that wipes out your user files on Windows/Linux/Mac OS XJun 05 19:38
DaemonFCand it's a cross platform trojan nowJun 05 19:38
DaemonFCit's basically a nasty side effect of supporting the same extension architecture across different platformsJun 05 19:39
DaemonFCyou no longer need to extrapolate the specifics of your victim's machine, Firefox will do that for youJun 05 19:39
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 19:39
DaemonFCthat's why Firefox warns you and displays a countdown before you can isntall itJun 05 19:40
DaemonFCthey have the same level of access to your machine that an ActiveX control does in IE, and likely moreJun 05 19:40
fewaschestowitz, microsoft is setting its rules on netbooks, making sure they cant get cheaper, faster. Then it trys to create a illusion that it is in control, so that it actually does gain that control. That article put microsoft on naming what differnt netbooks are called, because that suggests that microsoft somehow is fit to regulate what netbook's specs are.Jun 05 19:41
DaemonFCthere's nothing wrong with creating an add-on framework, the browser would be far less useful without one, but misleadiong the users into thinking yours is more secure is jsut wrongJun 05 19:41
fewathey have to pretend microsoft is already setting things, then microsoft can start the pressureJun 05 19:41
DaemonFCschestowitz: I looked up the memcpy() function you said Microsoft was telling people not to useJun 05 19:42
DaemonFCthere's 3 other ways to do the same thing just so you knowJun 05 19:42
fewaits total junk that they put that spin on a system that has nothing to do with microsoft however. Microsoft will never have any sway over such systemsJun 05 19:42
DaemonFCyou can do them with SSE and MMX, and 3dNow!Jun 05 19:43
*zer0c00l has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 05 19:44
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 05 19:48
DaemonFC# The <BLINK> and <MARQUEE> tags were crimes!Jun 05 19:49
DaemonFCs-</?(blink|marquee).*>--sigUJun 05 19:49
DaemonFClmaoJun 05 19:49
schestowitzNot to be nervous. Windows can be hijacked in many new ways.. no fixes yet. 05 19:49
DaemonFC<blink> was Netscape and <marquee> was MicrosoftJun 05 19:50
DaemonFCone example of how neither of them cared about standards, only about being mutually incompatibleJun 05 19:50
DaemonFCand using users as pawnsJun 05 19:50
fewaDaemonFC, stop blabbingJun 05 19:51
DaemonFC<blink> still works in Firefox, but <marquee> doesn'tJun 05 19:51
schestowitzCarla has a great writeup about Microsoft's current Slog against GNU/Linux: 05 19:51
schestowitzWow. Some people just don't favour choice... What’s the point of Ubuntu remixes? < >Jun 05 19:55
schestowitzWhat next? "Why have red cars?"Jun 05 19:55
DaemonFCFederal Trade Commission fines Blue Hippo $5 million dollarsJun 05 19:55
DaemonFC 05 19:55
DaemonFCdeceptive trade practicesJun 05 19:56
MinceRprivoxy can do a lot more than just blocking adsJun 05 20:03
fewai just think it has a horrible language to do itJun 05 20:03 - The Email Address Most Likely To Be Snooped On ? - Labour in crisis: the Hotmail conspiracy 05 20:03
schestowitzWTF is BlueHippoJun 05 20:04
schestowitzAnd why do we need to hear about it from a Microsoft booter licker ('MVP')?Jun 05 20:04
schestowitz*bootJun 05 20:04
DaemonFCBlue Hippo was scamming people with bad credit computer financing deals then turning around, changing it so they never actually got the thingJun 05 20:06
DaemonFCtil they paid far more than it was worthJun 05 20:06
DaemonFCthen would sue the customer if they didn't keep payingJun 05 20:06
DaemonFCschestowitz: You have to go through a lot of hoops to bust junk mail, they lobby for laws that let them do all kinds of deceptive thingsJun 05 20:07
DaemonFCthey send out junk mail disquised to resemble letters from collection agencies evenJun 05 20:08
trmancoBing A Google-Killer? Get Real: 05 20:08
DaemonFCThere's actually a little-known law that lets me march down to the post office and file junk mail as "sexually obscene"Jun 05 20:09
DaemonFCand get a restraining order on itJun 05 20:09
DaemonFCso I made up a stack of junk letters and took them all down and did that one company at a timeJun 05 20:09
DaemonFCnow I get maybe an odd junk mailing every several monthsJun 05 20:09
DaemonFCI keep taking them down there and doing that thoughJun 05 20:09
schestowitzX Input 2.0 Merged Into The X Server \0/Jun 05 20:12
schestowitztrmanco: some trollsJun 05 20:13
DaemonFC 05 20:13
schestowitzLike the Don Reiseinger typeJun 05 20:13
DaemonFCWine 1.1.23 Released With Various FixesJun 05 20:13
schestowitzHeadlines that get hitsJun 05 20:13
schestowitz"Playstation3 will win the console wars"Jun 05 20:13
schestowitz"Cats prefer drinking Coke"Jun 05 20:14
schestowitz"KKK donate to Greepeace"Jun 05 20:14
DaemonFCWine is starting to get a workable DirectX 10 implementationJun 05 20:14
schestowitzGood.Jun 05 20:14
DaemonFCit shouldn't take them nearly as long to implement DirectX 11Jun 05 20:14
DaemonFCI also remember some interest in porting Wine's DirectX 10 to Windows XPJun 05 20:15
DaemonFCthat would be mildly hilariousJun 05 20:15
DaemonFCschestowitz: I did manage to get Halo 2 for Vista running in WineJun 05 20:16
DaemonFCvery recentlyJun 05 20:17
DaemonFC1.1.22Jun 05 20:17
DaemonFCthe game is playable, the XBOX Live redistributable obviously won't runJun 05 20:17
DaemonFCso it crashes if you try to go on LiveJun 05 20:17
schestowitzIncreased competition 'uncomfortable' for Firefox < >Jun 05 20:18
*schestowitz been with FF since .09Jun 05 20:18
schestowitz0.9Jun 05 20:18
DaemonFClmaoJun 05 20:19
DaemonFCI was pissed when they forked itJun 05 20:19
DaemonFCI tried Phoenix 0.1 and thought it was awfulJun 05 20:19
schestowitzIt's almost at 2.0 nowJun 05 20:19
schestowitzPhoronix has just turned 5Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFCI'm still not so sure that Firefox is the right thing to do, as suchJun 05 20:20
schestowitz 05 20:20
DaemonFCit's the right thing for marketingJun 05 20:20
schestowitzGo wish Michael happy bdayJun 05 20:20
DaemonFCit's easier to install with less optionsJun 05 20:20
schestowitzIt's strange to think it's twice as old as BNJun 05 20:20
DaemonFCso yeah that's what they're going forJun 05 20:20
schestowitzOur Netcraft rank beats PhoronixJun 05 20:20
schestowitzAlso our IRC channel ;-)Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFCThey should have an option for integrated mail/news/rss and ChatZillaJun 05 20:21
DaemonFCthen there's be no reason for the distinction between FF and SeamonkeyJun 05 20:21
schestowitzApt URL Part Two < >Jun 05 20:21
schestowitzThere should be softare that's a browser, file manager, mail reader and moreJun 05 20:22
schestowitzOh waitJun 05 20:22
schestowitzThere's already such a thingJun 05 20:22
schestowitzIt's called "Fedora"Jun 05 20:22
schestowitzModularity is a good thingJun 05 20:22
schestowitzNetscape tried to put lots of stuff in one app (executable)Jun 05 20:22
DaemonFC""Of course it was easier to compete with a Microsoft that was asleep, but it's not the case anymore. Now we have Google, we have Apple and they are amazing competitors."Jun 05 20:22
schestowitzLinux gets it rightJun 05 20:22
DaemonFChehJun 05 20:22
schestowitzBroken down at many livelsJun 05 20:22
schestowitzFrom gnu tools like rm and mvJun 05 20:23
schestowitzUp to higher level bitsJun 05 20:23
schestowitzAll reusableJun 05 20:23
schestowitzpulseaudioJun 05 20:23
DaemonFCschestowitz: Windows would actually be a pretty good thing were it open source, I was explainin the API personalities idea earlierJun 05 20:23
DaemonFCWindows could be UNIX easier than UNIX could be WindowsJun 05 20:24
fewaDaemonFC, thats an unfair competitionJun 05 20:25
fewaits apples to orangesJun 05 20:25
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 05 20:25
fewaUNIX is a very small APIJun 05 20:25
DaemonFCWindows NT doesn't need Win32 or depend on itJun 05 20:25
fewawindows is a beamothJun 05 20:25
fewaUNIX and NT is moreso apples to applesJun 05 20:26
fewayou mean windows vs GNU/LinuxJun 05 20:26
DaemonFCyou can think of Win32 as a plug in API the the real NT systemJun 05 20:26
DaemonFCit would be just as easy to replace it with POSIXJun 05 20:26
DaemonFCor run both at onceJun 05 20:26
fewaPOSIX.0Jun 05 20:26
fewaan ancient unusable, POSJun 05 20:26
DaemonFCno, that is what they implementedJun 05 20:27
DaemonFCthey could have made Windows a UNIX-compliant systemJun 05 20:27
DaemonFCand it would be just as much UNIX as OS XJun 05 20:27
DaemonFCthere's no reason for them to do it thoughJun 05 20:27
fewa which of these features does windows have?Jun 05 20:27
DaemonFCmost of themJun 05 20:28
MinceRpulseaudio sucksJun 05 20:28
DaemonFCthey're called something differentJun 05 20:28
fewaDaemonFC, does NT have kexec?Jun 05 20:29
DaemonFCWindows isn't marketed as a patchwork of separate programs so no, it won't stress something like kexecJun 05 20:29
DaemonFCthat would only be useful with Hyper-VJun 05 20:29
fewathats not a seperate functionJun 05 20:29
fewaits very usefulJun 05 20:29
fewaand its not at all related to virtualizationJun 05 20:29
DaemonFCrunning kexec is something I doubt they'll ever get done reliablyJun 05 20:31
fewacan you hot patch NT while its running?Jun 05 20:31
DaemonFCit requires too many assumptions about the state of the working systemJun 05 20:31
MinceRi prefer to hot patch NT with a big block of zeroesJun 05 20:31
MinceRthere's even a button to do it, it's labeled Reset.Jun 05 20:31
DaemonFCnow you're talking about kspliceJun 05 20:32
DaemonFCwhich would still need rebootsJun 05 20:32
MinceRactually it wouldn'tJun 05 20:32
DaemonFCyes it wouldsJun 05 20:32
MinceRthat's the whole pointJun 05 20:32
fewaMinceR, agreed, DaemonFC is trollingJun 05 20:32
DaemonFCKSplice wi9ll not eliminate all rebootsJun 05 20:32
DaemonFCneverJun 05 20:32
DaemonFCat most, you're talking 80-90% of reboots eliminatedJun 05 20:33
DaemonFCwhich helpsJun 05 20:33
DaemonFCbut it still not total uptimeJun 05 20:33
fewaok DaemonFC, since you are just pushing it. Can NT hot patch its self 90% of the timeJun 05 20:33
DaemonFC 05 20:33
fewaand DaemonFC, can you upgrade windows in any way shape or form, without restartingJun 05 20:33
fewa????Jun 05 20:33
DaemonFC"Ksplice can correct 88% of the Linux kernel vulnerabilities from this interval without the need for rebooting and without writing any new code. "Jun 05 20:34
schestowitzAnother Microsoft manager quits. 05 20:34
DaemonFCyes you canJun 05 20:34
DaemonFCnot kernel code, because that's ridiculousJun 05 20:34
DaemonFCand if a Linux distro tried to ship KPlice, they'll be suedJun 05 20:34
MinceRand not user code, because its file management is brokenJun 05 20:34
DaemonFCbecause of software patentsJun 05 20:34
DaemonFCthat's why no actual distribution has itJun 05 20:34
MinceRso actually no, you can't patch NT while it's runningJun 05 20:34
DaemonFCnot because it's not readyJun 05 20:34
DaemonFCbecause it's illegalJun 05 20:35
MinceRno, distros don't have it because their package managers are designed to upgrade kernels by replacing/adding binary filesJun 05 20:35
MinceRand that's not how ksplice worksJun 05 20:35
schestowitzAyeJun 05 20:35
MinceRalso, you can't use ksplice in some of the casesJun 05 20:35
schestowitzDaemonFC: fear mongererJun 05 20:35
fewaDaemonFC, im getting really sick of your trollingJun 05 20:35
schestowitzBush Jr.Jun 05 20:35
DaemonFCthey could have implemented ksplice back in 2006Jun 05 20:35
DaemonFCthey still haventJun 05 20:35
DaemonFCthey know what would happenJun 05 20:35
MinceRthey could have hanged ballmer back in 2006Jun 05 20:36
DaemonFCso show me who is using itJun 05 20:36
schestowitzTime for Ritalin, DaemonFC Jun 05 20:36
MinceRs/Ritalin/kickban/Jun 05 20:36
MinceR:>Jun 05 20:36
schestowitzWe'll all chip in so they you can get some at walmartJun 05 20:36
DaemonFC"So, presumably, the code will eventually be proposed for a mainline merge. But there is one other little difficulty pointed out by Tomasz Chmielewski: Microsoft holds a patent described this way:Jun 05 20:37
DaemonFCA system and method for automatically updating software components on a running computer system without requiring any interruption of service. A software module is hotpatched by loading a patch into memory and modifying an instruction in the original module to jump to the patch. "Jun 05 20:37
DaemonFC 05 20:37
DaemonFC"Given that the kernel developers are now well aware of this patent, they must take it into account when deciding whether to accept this code into the mainline. It would not be surprising if they chose to avoid baiting the Microsoft FUD machine in this way, even if they all agreed that the patent lacked validity. So a promising technology risks being left out of the kernel as the result of a software patent which was filed at leJun 05 20:37
DaemonFCast 30 years too late."Jun 05 20:37
MinceRso why doesn't windows do that then?Jun 05 20:38 why it is NOT in LinuxJun 05 20:38
DaemonFCand likely won't beJun 05 20:38
DaemonFCbecause rebooting is less problematic than patching things that are loadedJun 05 20:38
MinceRespecially on windows, where you spend a lot of time rebooting anywayJun 05 20:39
DaemonFCnoJun 05 20:39
DaemonFCI reboot about every 4-6 weeksJun 05 20:39
DaemonFConce you have the system in place, the only thing you really need to reboot for are system update cyclesJun 05 20:40
DaemonFCthat happens once every monthJun 05 20:41
mib_dya64ofor some time it seems windows, keeps the updates until you shutdown or restart your maching, then it applies them before the shutdown.Jun 05 20:41
DaemonFCif you ignore the security updates, you can keep a system up much longer than thatJun 05 20:41
DaemonFCI had an XP system up for over a year at one pointJun 05 20:41
MinceRif you're running windows, you're ignoring security anyway :>Jun 05 20:42
DaemonFCdepends on how you have it set upJun 05 20:42
MinceRalso, what's with the 47 days bug?Jun 05 20:43
DaemonFCyou have have it notify, but not download, download but not install, or just totally automaticJun 05 20:43
DaemonFCMinceR: Thaqt was a Windows 98 bugJun 05 20:43
MinceRor completely disable so you actually get to watch a movie in full screen all the wayJun 05 20:43
MinceRinstead of being annoyed by windows update every 5 minutesJun 05 20:44
DaemonFCWindows Update doesn't annoy youJun 05 20:44
MinceRnot once you disable itJun 05 20:44
DaemonFCthe tooltip can't go on top of a full screen applicationJun 05 20:44
DaemonFCeverJun 05 20:44
mib_dya64oeven when auto updates is turned on, it does not pop up anymoreJun 05 20:44
MinceRthe tooltip can't. however, the dialog box can.Jun 05 20:45
DaemonFCthere is no dialogJun 05 20:45
DaemonFCtil you click the icon in the trayJun 05 20:45
MinceRalso, the app wasn't full screen anymore once windows update forcibly removed it from that stateJun 05 20:45
DaemonFCit's meant to be a very unobtrusive "User notices it and acts"Jun 05 20:45
DaemonFCnot in your faceJun 05 20:46
MinceRi think i'm in a bit better position to tell whether a dialog appeared on my own computerJun 05 20:46
DaemonFCobviously notJun 05 20:46
MinceRyou're obviously trollingJun 05 20:46
DaemonFCor you're talking about an old copy of XP SP2 or somethingJun 05 20:46
DaemonFCSP3 doesn't even do thatJun 05 20:46
DaemonFCSP3 changes auto updates to act more like Vista's instead of simply starting a countdown to rebootJun 05 20:47
DaemonFCwhich is why a lot of XP users turned updates to notify only or ofJun 05 20:47
MinceRwhich is kind of the point i was talking aboutJun 05 20:47
DaemonFCwell, so you admit that no current version of Windows actually behaves in the manner you were complaining about?Jun 05 20:48
MinceRand by the way it was SP3Jun 05 20:48
MinceRwell, it isn't vistaJun 05 20:48
mib_dya64obut it is true that with vista and win7 you do not even know you have a patch until you go to shutdown.Jun 05 20:48
schestowitzGoogle serves up the Top 10 sites to avoid at all costs < >Jun 05 20:48
MinceRDaemonFC: and unless you're as stupid as you're pretending to be, you know why it isn't vistaJun 05 20:49
DaemonFCwhich is how it should beJun 05 20:49
DaemonFCthe in your face approach prods the user to become aggravated and turn off all security updatesJun 05 20:49
DaemonFCit backfiresJun 05 20:49
MinceRand doing updates on shutdown is stupid on laptops and on dual-booted machinesJun 05 20:50
schestowitzWindows update oveerrised user preferencesJun 05 20:50
schestowitzSo you can leave a Windows machine running...Jun 05 20:50
schestowitzGo get some coffeeeJun 05 20:51
schestowitzAnd come back to GDMJun 05 20:51
DaemonFCI've never had it override meJun 05 20:51
schestowitzBullJun 05 20:51
schestowitzIt does thatJun 05 20:51
schestowitzIt forces updatesJun 05 20:51
schestowitzAnd in Vista reboots tooJun 05 20:51
schestowitzSee the videos from Berlind, DavidJun 05 20:51
DaemonFCif you install a Service Pack, it will notice if you don't have auto updates on and ask you to flip it onJun 05 20:51
schestowitzAT: Education ministry supports GNU/Linux distribution for schools  < > \0/ Vista helps Linux..Jun 05 20:52
MinceRwell, ignoring user preferences isn't new in m$-landJun 05 20:52
schestowitzNopeJun 05 20:52
MinceRignoring and overriding user preferences is the m$ way and not even providing them is the crApple wayJun 05 20:52
schestowitzchown user /window~1Jun 05 20:52
DaemonFCthe file association idea in Windows is the most annoying thing it doesJun 05 20:53
MinceRwhy?Jun 05 20:53
DaemonFCif you have two programs that can handle some of the same files they both ask you to make them defaultJun 05 20:53
DaemonFCevery time you open themJun 05 20:53
DaemonFCwhich needs a UAC elevationJun 05 20:53
DaemonFCwell, sometimes, depends on the contextJun 05 20:53
DaemonFClike default web browser is per-userJun 05 20:54
DaemonFCsome associations are per-systemJun 05 20:54
MinceRwell, that's a bug in the apps -- and one of the standard practices in windows apps that makes windows even more of a hell to useJun 05 20:54
DaemonFClike the default web browser could be Internet Explorer on my account, but Firefox on yours, but when one of us changes the default media player, the other gets the change tooJun 05 20:55
DaemonFCwhich is annoying as hellJun 05 20:55
schestowitzhhmmmmmmmm........Jun 05 20:55
DaemonFCVista takes care of thatJun 05 20:55
schestowitzArticle removed: 05 20:55
DaemonFCbut it affects XPJun 05 20:55
MinceRgnu/linux takes care of it too :>Jun 05 20:55
schestowitz:-)Jun 05 20:56
DaemonFCVista with UAC on will store my file types in my virtualized registry areasJun 05 20:56
DaemonFCso you can have your defaults tooJun 05 20:56
schestowitzLike Gates takes care of him kids..Jun 05 20:56
schestowitz*hisJun 05 20:56
DaemonFCXP only recognizes Standard User and Administrator, it has no concept of per-user settings or file and registry virtualizationJun 05 20:57
DaemonFCso a multi-user XP system everyone is always stepping on everyone elses toesJun 05 20:57
DaemonFCI've always said they should have a "Lock These File Associations" buttonJun 05 20:58
MinceRso in vista you can finally have per-user settings, per-user systemwide settings and really systemwide settingsJun 05 20:58
DaemonFCso that nothing can even ask if you've already made a decision about somethingJun 05 20:58
MinceRthe train wreck called "registry" just got a whole lot more stupid.Jun 05 20:58
DaemonFCMinceR: YesJun 05 20:58
DaemonFCmore complicatedJun 05 20:58
MinceRthis is the kind of achievement they can actually manageJun 05 20:59
DaemonFCbecause now if I turn off UAC, it can't redirect my programs to their virtual registry storesJun 05 20:59
DaemonFCso it uses the old system registry approachJun 05 20:59
MinceRso it gets betterJun 05 20:59
DaemonFCand I lose a lot of settingsJun 05 20:59
DaemonFCmaybe even license codes for programsJun 05 20:59
DaemonFCunless I turn UAC back onJun 05 20:59
MinceRyou either get annoyed by UAC or you get the lack of the illusion of security _and_ your users step on each others' toesJun 05 20:59
DaemonFCnoJun 05 21:00
DaemonFCyou can keep UAC on with no elevation dialogJun 05 21:00
DaemonFCand still get file and registry virtualizationJun 05 21:00
MinceRthe only reason windows is worth knowing is so that you can laugh how incredibly, utterly stupid it isJun 05 21:00
DaemonFCthat way you get the best of both worlds, no nag screen, and per-user settingsJun 05 21:00
DaemonFCUAC file and registry virtualization is both an improvement over XP but a frustrating level of complicationJun 05 21:01
schestowitzStupid Google headline: Danger: Mac and Linux builds available < >Jun 05 21:02
DaemonFCand can cause inconsistencies and confusion if a user switches it offJun 05 21:02
MinceRit's just another level of hacks built on an old design flawJun 05 21:02
DaemonFCyes, it is a hackJun 05 21:02
DaemonFCbut a yummy delicious hack that lets me not have my settings nuked by another userJun 05 21:02
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 21:02
MinceRlolJun 05 21:02
MinceRnow you see that's how one knows a fanboyJun 05 21:03
schestowitzBerners-Lee: We no longer fully understand the web  < >Jun 05 21:03
schestowitzVideo: The Umbrella Men of Tiananmen < >. Nice music...Jun 05 21:04
MinceRthe worst thing about those kinds of hacks is that they're going to stay around as long as windows exists, as parts of the core systemJun 05 21:06
MinceRand they'll accumulateJun 05 21:06
DaemonFChmmmmJun 05 21:07
DaemonFCWordPerfect can import ODF and OOXMLJun 05 21:07
DaemonFCbut you have to save as Word Perfect files or DOCJun 05 21:08
MinceRwordperfect isn't dead yet?Jun 05 21:08
MinceRi thought m$ killed them alreadyJun 05 21:09
DaemonFCoh, you can convert to PDF tooJun 05 21:09
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 21:09
MinceRyayJun 05 21:09
schestowitz"NHS patients may be ‘refused treatment’ for opting-out of electronic care record" < > It's like extortionJun 05 21:09
DaemonFCMinceR: I've got WordPerfect Office and Corel DrawJun 05 21:10
DaemonFCboth are pretty goodJun 05 21:10
schestowitzKDE4 for Windows is put on the ice and this is good news for GNU/Linux IMHO 05 21:11
DaemonFCCorel still makes some decent stuffJun 05 21:11
MinceRcorel still exists? :>Jun 05 21:12
schestowitzWhat does it make now?Jun 05 21:12
DaemonFCall kindso of stuffJun 05 21:12
schestowitzWhat percentage of open-access journals charge publication fees? < >Jun 05 21:12
schestowitzname itJun 05 21:12
DaemonFCthere's their office suite, professional grphics tools, a blue-ray/upconverting DVD playerJun 05 21:12
schestowitzWhat? GIMP competittorJun 05 21:12
schestowitz??Jun 05 21:13
DaemonFCno, much better than GIMPJun 05 21:13
schestowitzI bet the GIMP has leapfrogged them in many areas by nowJun 05 21:13
schestowitzOOo tooJun 05 21:13
schestowitzThey have some zombie userbaseJun 05 21:13
schestowitzLike secretaries that are WordPerfectheadsJun 05 21:13
DaemonFC 05 21:13
MinceRi prefer those to m$officeheads :>Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz 05 21:14
schestowitzCorelDraw emphasisJun 05 21:14
schestowitzA colleague of mine uses itJun 05 21:14
fewai remember PSPJun 05 21:14
fewagreat programJun 05 21:14
schestowitzMinceR: No! :-)Jun 05 21:14
schestowitzWrong to use "heads"Jun 05 21:14
schestowitzIt implies existence of brainJun 05 21:15
MinceRheads can still be emptyJun 05 21:15
MinceRthey often areJun 05 21:15
schestowitzI uses Corel Draw IIRCJun 05 21:15
schestowitz*usedJun 05 21:15
MinceRi played around with coreldrawJun 05 21:15
fewapaint shop pro pwnsJun 05 21:16
fewapwnd* cdJun 05 21:16
DaemonFCyeah it doesJun 05 21:16
DaemonFCit runs in Wine tooJun 05 21:16
MinceRpaint shop pro was fine until around version 6Jun 05 21:16
MinceRwhen the installer decided it won't installJun 05 21:17
MinceRand then i decided to try gimp insteadJun 05 21:17
MinceRand then i didn't want to use psp ever after :>Jun 05 21:17
fewaim talking historicalJun 05 21:17
fewanot nowJun 05 21:18
MinceRwell, this was a pretty long time agoJun 05 21:18
fewayeah i never tried gimp back thenJun 05 21:18
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schestowitzI started using the GIMP just 7 years agoJun 05 21:22
MinceRNeoPaint was cool tooJun 05 21:23
ThistleWebschestowitz, have you taken a break since you started? I feel whacked staying up for 2 days, but damn, 7 years is hella impressiveJun 05 21:24
fewa 05 21:24
schestowitzmocoNews - Industry Moves: Symbian Beefs Up Exec Team With Dietmar Tallroth And Larry Berkin 05 21:24
schestowitzThistleWeb: I started in 2001 or 2002Jun 05 21:25
schestowitzI used Enlightenment back thenJun 05 21:25
fewa"Now we can take this Ferrari and paste it right into windows paint."Jun 05 21:25
schestowitzHad to create some logos... didn't even know how to draw lines (SHIFT)Jun 05 21:25
ThistleWebI tried Enlightenement a few times but it never quite grabbed meJun 05 21:25
schestowitzKids at schools should be taught the GIMPJun 05 21:26
schestowitzDe facto standardsJun 05 21:26
schestowitzInstead they are made customers of some drek companyJun 05 21:26
ThistleWebthey should be taught image manipulation, by being exposed to various apps which do thatJun 05 21:26
MinceRthere isn't necessary enough time to expose them to multiple apps for one purposeJun 05 21:26
ThistleWeblearn the general principles, so they can find the functions they need in any appJun 05 21:27
fewayep, with tax-deductable <s>"donations"</s> opiumJun 05 21:27
MinceRbut if it's got to be one, it should be a FLOSS appJun 05 21:27
ThistleWebMicrosoft is de facto standardsJun 05 21:27
ThistleWebby weight of market shareJun 05 21:27
ThistleWebso really they are learning de facto standards, not real onesJun 05 21:28
MinceR(linked from a BN article linked here earlier) 05 21:28
MinceRi wonder if this would cause opensuse to detach from novell eventuallyJun 05 21:28
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MinceRwell, if the student is bright enough, he can learn image manipulation on any app that's capable enoughJun 05 21:29
MinceRbut if he isn't, he should at least know an app he can get and use without limitations or paymentJun 05 21:29
ThistleWebI do wonder how long it'll be before the opensuse devs finally admit that being associated with Novell is a weight around their necksJun 05 21:29
ThistleWebfor most users, they have many options of stuff that will work for them, they just dont know thatJun 05 21:30
ThistleWebabiword, writer, star office writer and ms word will ALL do the basics that 99% of users need, the functions are all similarly named, similarly laid out etcJun 05 21:31
MinceRthen at least the one they're shown should be one that doesn't enslave them to the megacorps, as long as it's possibleJun 05 21:32
ThistleWebby learning generic word processing, they can switch from one app to another with the skills to adaptJun 05 21:32
MinceRalso, state-funded education should not be allowed to function as an advertisement for any businessJun 05 21:32
ThistleWebcompanies like microsoft and cisco have their own cults in the form of certsJun 05 21:32
MinceReven privately funded education should at least make it explicit that they in fact do advertise (and are thus partial)Jun 05 21:33
ThistleWebyepJun 05 21:33
schestowitzROTFL open source.. .NET dependentJun 05 21:33
schestowitzOpen source ceases to mean much..Jun 05 21:33
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DaemonFCCorel Draw makes sense for me thoughJun 05 21:35
DaemonFCsince I can get it much cheaper than Paint Shop ProJun 05 21:35
DaemonFCeducational licensesJun 05 21:35
ThistleWebpft, what's wrong with emacs?Jun 05 21:35
DaemonFCMicrosoft is not the only company that does thoseJun 05 21:35
DaemonFCbut Apple is by far the stingiestJun 05 21:36
MinceRemacs is a fine operating system, all it lacks is a good editorJun 05 21:36
schestowitzMinceR: watch how Jo Shills trolls SamJun 05 21:36
ThistleWeblolJun 05 21:36
schestowitzHe created an account some days agoJun 05 21:36
DaemonFChmmm, this is interestingJun 05 21:46
tessierSomeone was just talking about google being a verb. To which I just replied: "Nobody ever says 'Let me Microsoft that...' unless they are talking about totally fucking something up." HahahaJun 05 21:46
DaemonFCI just noticed a Protexis Licensing Service runningJun 05 21:46
DaemonFCapparently Corel slips that in with their products nowJun 05 21:46
balzactessier: hilariousJun 05 21:47
balzac'Let me Microsoft that' - quote of the dayJun 05 21:47
DaemonFCThe PSIService provides the minimal required administrative access to Corel product licensing and registration information in accordance with the new Windows Vista (tm) operating system guidelines. This service does not access any data other than the Corel product licensing and registration information, and it will not have any negative effects on your computer.Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFCPlease let me know if I can be of further assistance.Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFCThank You,Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFCDavid T.Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFCCorel Customer Support ServicesJun 05 21:47
DaemonFChmmmmJun 05 21:48
balzacBut it's lame to say "google" as a verb replacing the word "search"Jun 05 21:48
DaemonFCbackdoor anyone?Jun 05 21:48
ThistleWebya know I figured out why the term "cancer" came to Ballmer when he made that statement ages ago about Linux being a cancerJun 05 21:48
ThistleWebcancer cells grow, they morph other cells into more of themselves by force. This seems to be the business model of Microsoft when taking over a competitorJun 05 21:49
ThistleWebtry a takeover, if there are a few disenting voices ont he board saying no, you slander, smear themJun 05 21:49
ThistleWebget them replaced with people loyal to Microsoft and take them over from the insideJun 05 21:50
ThistleWebturn them into agents for Microsoft's agendaJun 05 21:50
ThistleWebsounds like a cancer to meJun 05 21:50
ThistleWebworks for governemts, ISO's and other organisationsJun 05 21:51
ThistleWebso he's right in that IT can be likened to cancer, he just forgot to include the mirror in his wrathJun 05 21:51
MinceRwill "bing" be the verb meaning to rebrand something in a desperate attempt to get attention?Jun 05 21:52
MinceRas for diseases and such, m$ is a parasite that almost killed the IT industryJun 05 21:53
ThistleWebthey do have a lot to answer forJun 05 21:53
ThistleWebone thing they have done, is get people afraid of their PCsJun 05 21:54
ThistleWebwhen something crashes, people are convinced into believing it's THIER faultJun 05 21:54
ThistleWebsomething THEY didJun 05 21:54
ThistleWeband that sub-par is acceptableJun 05 21:54
DaemonFC 05 21:54
DaemonFCProtexis posts a FAQ about their DRM system serviceJun 05 21:55
ThistleWebof course, when you control which products are on shop shelves, you can keep people convinced that Windows and their PC is one and the same thing, inseparatbleJun 05 21:55
MinceRit worked on crAppleJun 05 21:56
MinceRthey do believe those are the same thingJun 05 21:56
DaemonFCThistleWeb 05 21:56
DaemonFCerrJun 05 21:56
DaemonFC 05 21:56
DaemonFChehJun 05 21:56
ThistleWebwhich is what?Jun 05 21:57
DaemonFCRick Astley of courseJun 05 22:00
ThistleWeblolJun 05 22:00
DaemonFCquite possibly the worst thing to ever come out of the UKJun 05 22:00
DaemonFCif one can measure these thingsJun 05 22:00
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 22:00
ThistleWebI dunno, there's a dude called Gordon who must be high in that race right nowJun 05 22:01
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ThistleWebthe only one on the planet who thinks he's doin a great jobJun 05 22:01
DaemonFCwell, and so it beginsJun 05 22:02
DaemonFCBing is not advertising spywareJun 05 22:02
DaemonFCerrJun 05 22:02
DaemonFC*nowJun 05 22:02
DaemonFCthey're advertising fake versions of Spybot Search & DestroyJun 05 22:02
DaemonFCthat demand moneyJun 05 22:02
DaemonFC(it's freeware)Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC 05 22:03
ThistleWebof course, it's all about Windows, and part of the full Windows experience is being infected and paying for tools to clean and protect itJun 05 22:03
DaemonFC 05 22:03
DaemonFCbut Google advertises the same spywareJun 05 22:03
ThistleWebhave they disabled the autoplayng of vids?Jun 05 22:04
DaemonFCnah, plenty of free antivirus/anti spyware suites out thereJun 05 22:04
DaemonFCin Bing video search you mean?Jun 05 22:04
ThistleWebyepJun 05 22:04
DaemonFCnot that I'm awareJun 05 22:04
DaemonFCI rather like thatJun 05 22:04
ThistleWebthey got a roasting for it shoiwng porn thereJun 05 22:04
DaemonFCSWEETJun 05 22:05
ThistleWebbypassing any other filtersJun 05 22:05
DaemonFCsee shcestowitzJun 05 22:05
DaemonFCBing is the bestest thing everJun 05 22:05
DaemonFCI can has pr0nzJun 05 22:05
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 22:05
*fewa has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 05 22:05
ThistleWebit's a good family company in the purest sense, right down to the making of a new member of the family at their earliest visible cumJun 05 22:06
DaemonFCyes, such wonderful life educationJun 05 22:07
DaemonFCI didn't know you got pregnant by drinking that stuffJun 05 22:07
DaemonFClearn something new every day I sayJun 05 22:07
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 22:07
ThistleWeblolJun 05 22:07
*DaemonFC slaps schestowitz with Bing Bukkake SearchJun 05 22:08
ThistleWebwonder how long it'll be before bing is added to the urban dictionaryJun 05 22:09
ThistleWebbing - the act of window dressing a turdJun 05 22:09
ThistleWebusing shit instead of clay to create a statueJun 05 22:10
DaemonFCSpybot S&D's Internet Explorer immunization list has swelled to almost 100,000 itemsJun 05 22:12
DaemonFC:PJun 05 22:12
ThistleWeblolJun 05 22:13
DaemonFCMicrosoft made a way of blacklisting particular versions of IE pluginsJun 05 22:13
DaemonFCso this exploits that by blacklisting known malicious plugins and BHOsJun 05 22:14
DaemonFCthe problem is that the list can only GROWJun 05 22:14
DaemonFC5 years ago, it only had to add less than 10,000 entriesJun 05 22:14
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 22:14
DaemonFCas soon as you remove the blacklisting for anything, there could be a page or two out there that still has itJun 05 22:15
ThistleWeblast I looked at IE plugins, I wasn't impressed. anything remotely usefull was trialware, the free stuff was all fun but pointless shitJun 05 22:19
schestowitzI've never been to that BingTHing, but I've seen screenshotsJun 05 22:19
ThistleWeblooked like Microsoft saw that plugins were a HUGE pull for users to Firefox, wanted to add theirs, in their own "gotta make money from it" wayJun 05 22:19
schestowitzOthers went to bing. Rather than just see screenshots they get to see cumshots... without leaving the site even.Jun 05 22:20
ThistleWebmaybe letting the vids play and giving a porn bypass is an intentional trick to get users who want porn and are blocked in other serach engines like GoogleJun 05 22:21
DaemonFChmmmmJun 05 22:21
DaemonFClmaoJun 05 22:22
DaemonFCit does play porn in the Bing frameJun 05 22:22
DaemonFCoh wowJun 05 22:23
schestowitz 05 22:23
DaemonFCBing is a great porn search engine tooJun 05 22:23
schestowitzThe Shafters keep removoing (censoring) WikipediaJun 05 22:23
DaemonFCUHHHHM!!!!!Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFCschestowitz!!!!Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFCuhhhhJun 05 22:24
DaemonFCthere's porn hidden in YOUTUBE!!!Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFCXXX stuffJun 05 22:24
DaemonFC!Jun 05 22:24
ThistleWebso thats why the term "tube" was chosenJun 05 22:24
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schestowitzThe Mint prints more money so that the future generations will pay heavier debt and people will carry on passing money...Jun 05 22:31
schestowitz 05 22:31
schestowitzHere's from Wikipedia:Jun 05 22:32
schestowitz"Sabayon Linux or SabayonLinux, (formerly known as RR4 Linux/RR64 Linux), is a Gentoo-based Linux distribution"Jun 05 22:32
schestowitzIt sounds to me like the "Gentoo User" troll tried to wash his socks, but didn't do very good job of it. ;)Jun 05 22:32
schestowitz"Sabayon User" troll..Jun 05 22:33
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*mib_0y85m5 is now known as _GoblinJun 05 22:34
schestowitzReport: Bill Gates buys Buffalo Bill's historic Wyoming ranch < >Jun 05 22:35
schestowitzHey, GObJun 05 22:35
_Goblinhi msging from my netbook!Jun 05 22:35
schestowitzLinpus?Jun 05 22:37
_GoblinnoJun 05 22:37
schestowitzUbuntu?Jun 05 22:37
_GoblinxpJun 05 22:37
schestowitz*gasp*Jun 05 22:37
_Goblinsorry allJun 05 22:37
schestowitzAcer?Jun 05 22:38
_Goblinits the only one compat with the 3 dongle...i need acess next week when im on holidayJun 05 22:38
DaemonFCI'm seriously considering just going back to Fedora when 11 is outJun 05 22:38
_Goblinits an acer aspire one...Jun 05 22:38
_Goblinand god its slowJun 05 22:38
DaemonFCthe reasons I slapped Windows on this system just a month ago are no longer really the caseJun 05 22:38
ThistleWebthat'd be xp for yaJun 05 22:39
_Goblini shudder to think what vista would be likeJun 05 22:39
DaemonFCin what way?Jun 05 22:39
_Goblinspeed...Jun 05 22:39
DaemonFCmeh, it dependsJun 05 22:40
_Goblinif xp is slow...god help vista on a netbookJun 05 22:40
DaemonFCon a decent system, it can beat XPJun 05 22:40
DaemonFCbut on an older system, definitely XP would be fasterJun 05 22:40
_Goblinand im even using ie at the momentJun 05 22:40
schestowitz_Goblin: wait, i saw an howto earlier..Jun 05 22:40
_Goblini feel dirtyJun 05 22:40
DaemonFCVista is more bloated but XP is getting too old to deal with modern hardwareJun 05 22:40
DaemonFCis really what it comes toJun 05 22:40
schestowitzHere: 05 22:41
_Goblinthanks....ill ask for that link again since Im saving my money by using my desktop in a second...dont need this netbook until next week.Jun 05 22:42
_Goblinill log offJun 05 22:42
DaemonFCno matter what version of Windows you get it will either be way expensive and do a lot of things you don't need it to, or if you cheap out then there's going to be a lot of stuff you need it to do and it can'tJun 05 22:42
_Goblinback shortly.Jun 05 22:42
DaemonFCthe whole point is to lead you to the version that does a lot of stuff you don't needJun 05 22:42
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MinceRvista fails at hw support tooJun 05 22:43
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schestowitzNo, it's the user's faultJun 05 22:43
schestowitzFor buying rubbish h/wJun 05 22:44
*schestowitz looks for the Pirillo vidJun 05 22:44
schestowitzDaemonFC would find it fasterJun 05 22:44
DaemonFCwell, if you buy no name hardware you're kind of asking for it no matter what operating system you useJun 05 22:44
DaemonFCI mean some of it will work fine, but on the whole, it tends to not be the caseJun 05 22:45
ThistleWebdoes IE 7 or 8 support transparent png files yet?Jun 05 22:45
DaemonFCyesJun 05 22:45
DaemonFCboth doJun 05 22:45
ThistleWebboth?Jun 05 22:45
ThistleWebahh coolJun 05 22:46
schestowitz"Cool..."Jun 05 22:47
DaemonFCIE 8 isn't exactly great, but it's much better than getting stuck with IE 6Jun 05 22:47
schestowitzCatching up with like 10 years ago... maybe 7Jun 05 22:47
schestowitzThat defines MicrosoftJun 05 22:47
DaemonFCwhich is why I'm shocked that anyone uses IE 6Jun 05 22:47
schestowitzWow! Tabs!Jun 05 22:47
schestowitzWow! transparent window borders!Jun 05 22:47
MinceRYesterday's Technology At Tomorrow's Price!Jun 05 22:47
schestowitzYesJun 05 22:47
MinceRMicrosoft - The Trailing Edge Of Technology!Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz /s/EDGE/EDGI/Jun 05 22:48
MinceRWhere In The Past Do You Want To Go Today?Jun 05 22:48
DaemonFCI've benchmarked IE 8 and taken a look at the rendering engine features, and found it to be on par with Firefox 2.xJun 05 22:48
schestowitzI.e. they force it upon youJun 05 22:48
DaemonFCfor the most partJun 05 22:48
schestowitzIf you don't want it, they'll dump it on youJun 05 22:48
DaemonFCIE has never exactly been cutting edge stuffJun 05 22:48
MinceRor they'll bribe your government to force it on youJun 05 22:49
MinceRor they'll bribe your government to take your money and give it to themJun 05 22:49
DaemonFCthey've introduced a few neat things that caught onJun 05 22:49
DaemonFCbut that's the exceptionJun 05 22:49
ThistleWebI found tabs awkward to start with, then grew to insist on my browser using themJun 05 22:49
MinceRi didn't get Opera's MDI interface when it was new, then i found tabs indispensableJun 05 22:49
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DaemonFCschestowitz: I was toying around with sdhelper.dllJun 05 22:50
ThistleWebwhen IE had no serious competition, all complaints, feature requests could be ignored, when firefox turned into a serious competitor eating their lunch they were forced to blow the dust off the code and try to do something to stem the exodusJun 05 22:50
DaemonFCit's part of Spybot S&D, it loads it into Internet Explorer as a plug inJun 05 22:51
DaemonFCthat way it can restrict plugins based on a blacklist it totes around :P\Jun 05 22:51
ThistleWebfor a rushed effort, IE7 ain't too bad, at least it's better if your work insists on only using IEJun 05 22:51
DaemonFCkeeping out at least "known" spywareJun 05 22:51
DaemonFCthere's a Firefox version of sdhelper tooJun 05 22:51
DaemonFCThistleWeb: You can also use SVG in Internet ExplorerJun 05 22:52
DaemonFCbut it requires an extensionJun 05 22:52
MinceRif your work insists on only using IE, time to look for a new one.Jun 05 22:52
ThistleWebyeahJun 05 22:52
DaemonFCwhy the hell do I care what they use?Jun 05 22:53
DaemonFCIt's their moneyJun 05 22:53
DaemonFC 05 22:53
MinceRooh, it's from adobeJun 05 22:53
MinceRif your browser isn't crap enough, why not add something from adobe into it?Jun 05 22:54
ThistleWebnever bothered with svg yetJun 05 22:54
MinceRoh wait, it is crap enoughJun 05 22:54
DaemonFCit's not really that hugeJun 05 22:55
DaemonFCit's like a 1 meg plugin that renders SVGJun 05 22:55
MinceRit's not the size that makes it crapJun 05 22:55
MinceRit's adobe's complete inability to write usable codeJun 05 22:55
MinceRif it's anything like flash, it takes ages to render trivial shapesJun 05 22:56
MinceRand if it's anything like reader, there's one security hole for each line of codeJun 05 22:56
ThistleWebthe key is that if it's good enough, and has enough of the mind share it will be a successJun 05 22:56
DaemonFCno, it's not slow eitherJun 05 22:57
DaemonFCthere are several other IE plug ins that add SVG supportJun 05 23:00
schestowitzhey, mib_ymju38 Jun 05 23:01
mib_ymju38hiJun 05 23:04
mib_ymju38got a pm question for youJun 05 23:04
schestowitzBN is swamped with Microsoft trolls todayJun 05 23:06
schestowitzmib_ymju38: does it need to be private?Jun 05 23:06
mib_ymju38Well, maybe notJun 05 23:07
schestowitzAll the fun is here :-)Jun 05 23:07
schestowitzwe love transparencyJun 05 23:07
schestowitz<mib_ymju38> Hopefully this doesn't sound like too stupid of a question, but here goesJun 05 23:07
schestowitz<mib_ymju38> The MS Xbox division is still operating at a loss, right?Jun 05 23:07
schestowitzYes, as per last reportJun 05 23:07
schestowitzAprilJun 05 23:07
schestowitzIn July it's likely to be the sameJun 05 23:07
schestowitzThie evening I found out that another XBoxer (manager) jumped shipJun 05 23:08
mib_ymju38So, (realizing that anything done would probably be in the noise anyway), if someone were deciding between an Xbox and a PS3 and really didn't care much either way, would it be possible to actually do more harm to MS by getting the Xbox instead?Jun 05 23:08
ThistleWeba single person buying an xbox will be like a drop in the ocean in how much you could hurt MicrosoftJun 05 23:09
mib_ymju38hence the parenthesis partJun 05 23:09
ThistleWebthey do lose money, but the effect on them is minisculeJun 05 23:09
MinceR002016 <@schestowitz> BN is swamped with Microsoft trolls todayJun 05 23:10
MinceRwell duh, you don't ban themJun 05 23:10
schestowitzI can'tJun 05 23:10
schestowitzit's commentsJun 05 23:10
schestowitzAnd we never deleted commentsJun 05 23:10
schestowitzWe're not going toJun 05 23:10
schestowitzThe trolls change namesJun 05 23:10
schestowitzOtherwise I just know to ignore themJun 05 23:11
Balrogschestowitz: do you delete smap comments?Jun 05 23:11
MinceRyou could ban ip addressesJun 05 23:11
Balrogspam *Jun 05 23:11
ThistleWebI'd buy a console on the selection of games available and the playability of the console / gamesJun 05 23:11
BalrogMinceR: bad for transparencyJun 05 23:11
ThistleWebfair play, the 360 does look niceJun 05 23:11
*MinceR shrugsJun 05 23:11
schestowitzmib_ymju38: buying an XBox helps MSJun 05 23:11
MinceRone's got to deal with trolls, flooders and spammersJun 05 23:11
BalrogThistleWeb: RRODJun 05 23:11
schestowitzIt helps them sell themselves to devs and shopsJun 05 23:11
ThistleWebBalrog, I knowJun 05 23:11
schestowitzNo sales->Xbox360 dies earlierJun 05 23:11
Balrogthe xbox 360 of someone I know died recentlyJun 05 23:12
MinceRi wouldn't buy a console because consoles suckJun 05 23:12
ThistleWebany console is a trojan, they make money when you buy accesories and gamesJun 05 23:12
MinceRwell, at least wii and ds have something innovative about themJun 05 23:12
schestowitzDaemonFC had his XBox die like 5 timesJun 05 23:12
Balrogthe wii's OS isn't too innovativeJun 05 23:12
MinceRthat isn'tJun 05 23:12
mib_ymju38that's mostly why I asked.  The PS3 looks like a better buy (better quality hardware and the console library close enough between the two)Jun 05 23:12
schestowitzInnOTvativeJun 05 23:12
MinceRit's controllers areJun 05 23:12
schestowitzSilly wordsJun 05 23:13
schestowitzInnovvationJun 05 23:13
schestowitzR&DJun 05 23:13
schestowitzAll buzzwordsJun 05 23:13
MinceRthe four-letter word of the industry? :>Jun 05 23:13
Balrog 05 23:13
schestowitzFor investorsJun 05 23:13
Balrogread it ...Jun 05 23:13
DaemonFCschestowitz: I won't even pretend to like anything about the XBOX 360Jun 05 23:13
DaemonFCtotal disasterJun 05 23:13
schestowitzSays a MS fanboiJun 05 23:13
MinceRmust be really bad thenJun 05 23:13
MinceRor they didn't offer enough money yetJun 05 23:14
DaemonFCit's awfulJun 05 23:14
ThistleWebI grew out of gaming a while back, my PS2 and GameCube sit gathering dust, they get the occasional 5 min blast now and thenJun 05 23:14
DaemonFCit's extortion and then the fucking thing overheatsJun 05 23:14
DaemonFCI mean the life expectancy for a 360 is about 3 monthsJun 05 23:14
DaemonFCseriously, that badJun 05 23:14
DaemonFCand not just talking about 1 that diedJun 05 23:14
MinceR"life sucks and then you die"Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFCthats the average life between 6 consolesJun 05 23:14
BalrogThistleWeb: I find the handhelds more versatileJun 05 23:15
ThistleWebMinceR, that could be a motto for a fly before it;s caught in a vacuum cleanerJun 05 23:15
MinceRit's just life on earthJun 05 23:15
MinceRand the life cycle of xboxes :>Jun 05 23:15
ThistleWebBalrog, I can't be assed witha tiny screenJun 05 23:15
*mib_ymju38 has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Jun 05 23:17
ThistleWebI couldn't be classed as a gamer anymore though, so things like the 360 looked cool in the 5 mins I played on in a store, dunno what it'd be like to live with oneJun 05 23:17
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 05 23:17
ThistleWebgiven that I hardly play games now, I couldn't justify spending money on any new consoleJun 05 23:17
DaemonFCMicrosoft isn't just pissing off the knuckle dragging Walmart customers that buy a shitty emachineJun 05 23:17
DaemonFCthey're fucking with people that have money and demand qualityJun 05 23:18
MinceRthose people demand quality from the wrong companyJun 05 23:18
DaemonFCit was probably a lot easier to please customers when they never made any pretenses about being about qualityJun 05 23:19
DaemonFCand just specialized in XP on emachines at WalmartJun 05 23:19
DaemonFC:)Jun 05 23:19
DaemonFCthis rejection of Microsoft really only grew legs when they started charging more for Vista and added features to try and take on Apple that those shitty emachines at Walmart couldn't handleJun 05 23:21
ThistleWebwhat is Microsoft's latest plan for Windows 7 netbooks? If it needs approx the same resources as Vista it won't fitJun 05 23:21
DaemonFCcustomers weren't really aware that there was anything wrong with their Celeron and 256 megs of RAM til they tried to load Vista on itJun 05 23:21
_goblinback...Jun 05 23:21
ThistleWebI believe they dropped the 3 app limit because of partner feedbackJun 05 23:22
_goblini'll tell you something, that Notebook experience with Windows that is advertised on TV is certainly not the one Ive just had.Jun 05 23:22
_goblinjust clicking on the start menu could invoke half a minute of HD fitting while the system did....somethingJun 05 23:23
ThistleWebApple got slapped for misleading net experience TV advert, the ad showed a fast, snappy surfing which iPhone users didn't get close toJun 05 23:23
MinceRThistleWeb: the new plan is same as the old plan: lies, lies and some more liesJun 05 23:24
_goblinits only because Im desperate to stay online during my holiday that I paid 200 quid for it.Jun 05 23:24
_goblinso to everyone here, what do you reckon the best browser for an XP crippled Netbook would be?Jun 05 23:24
DaemonFCI'm still encoding AAC and messing around with taggingJun 05 23:24
ThistleWebif Windows 7 wont fit they have no choice but to keep XP alive even longerJun 05 23:24
MinceR_goblin: operaJun 05 23:24
DaemonFCI got the encoder settings down to where I can't tell the AAC from the CDJun 05 23:25
_goblinright...Jun 05 23:25
ThistleWebother than cede the netbook market to Linux, which they will NEVER doJun 05 23:25
_goblinopera it is...Jun 05 23:25
DaemonFCthis is takinf forever :PJun 05 23:25
_goblinI'll give it a go.Jun 05 23:25
DaemonFC*taking\Jun 05 23:25
_goblinthe only good thing about XP is that I will still be able to run IRSSI since theres a Windows binary.Jun 05 23:26
DaemonFCit's not a Windows binaryJun 05 23:27
DaemonFCtechnically it is and it isn'tJun 05 23:27
DaemonFCit depends on CygwinJun 05 23:27
_goblinah...Jun 05 23:27
_goblinjust downloaded the installer to transfer to the netbook.Jun 05 23:27
DaemonFCuser mode implementation of a UNIX-like environment in WindowsJun 05 23:27
DaemonFCit's better to use Services For UNIX if you canJun 05 23:28
MinceR_goblin: you know you could install linux on it, right? :>Jun 05 23:28
DaemonFCcause it's kernel-modeJun 05 23:28
MinceRand kernel-mode means easier to crash!Jun 05 23:28
MinceRit's all the rage in m$ landJun 05 23:28
MinceRlet's put it all in kernel space and claim it's zomg-fastJun 05 23:28
_goblinMincer: Yeah but its the broadband dongle...its incompatible with Linux...Jun 05 23:28
MinceReven though it isn'tJun 05 23:28
MinceR_goblin: get another then :>Jun 05 23:28
DaemonFCMinceR: Vista actually emphasises keeping things in user moder wherever possibleJun 05 23:28
_goblinYesterday I bought the Linux netbook, today I had to replace with XP.Jun 05 23:29
DaemonFCthere's more third party kernel mode crap running in a typical Linux setupJun 05 23:29
DaemonFCif you have an Nvidia card, you already have moreJun 05 23:29
MinceRDaemonFC: bullshitJun 05 23:29
DaemonFCnopeJun 05 23:29
ThistleWeb_goblin, it may just be incompatible with Lunpus, it may work with another netbook distroJun 05 23:29
DaemonFCall of the display driver has to be kernel mode in LinuxJun 05 23:29
DaemonFCVista runs most of the video driver in the user mode frameworkJun 05 23:30
_goblinI thought of that...rang 3...they said no...Rang Comet they said the same...Jun 05 23:30
_goblineven running wine (to boot the software on the dongle) didn't workJun 05 23:30
MinceRvista also runs most of the gui itself in kernel modeJun 05 23:30
DaemonFCif your video driver crashes on Linux or Windows XP, they'll take down the OSJun 05 23:30
DaemonFCin Vista they probably just reset the graphics systemJun 05 23:30
_goblinthats why I gave up and simply replaced it with an XP one....I'm going away tomorrow...Jun 05 23:30
MinceRprobably, rightJun 05 23:30
MinceRas usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.Jun 05 23:30
ThistleWeb_goblin, I used to work in Comet, I know the level of staff training they get, I know the concern they have with giving customers good accurate adviceJun 05 23:30
MinceRjust wild guesses, speculationJun 05 23:31
MinceRand m$ advertisements.Jun 05 23:31
ThistleWebI'd take their opinions with a pinch of saltJun 05 23:31
_goblinyeah customer services said they should never have sold me it.Jun 05 23:31
DaemonFCno, Linux video drivers are a real nightmareJun 05 23:31
MinceRof course they areJun 05 23:31
DaemonFCthere's at least a million ways a video error can crash a Linux systemJun 05 23:31
_goblinDaemonFC: Ive never had a problem.Jun 05 23:31
MinceRthe gpu vendors make themJun 05 23:31
DaemonFCand I think I've hit all of themJun 05 23:31
MinceRit's just like when the hw vendor makes a windows driverJun 05 23:31
ThistleWebevery OEM is a Windows OEM, some have this little oddity on a few models called LinuxJun 05 23:32
MinceRat least on linux most drivers are written and checked by sane people who actually know and care about sw developmentJun 05 23:32
MinceRthe official drivers for my hauppauge tuner card keep coming to mindJun 05 23:32
MinceRand all the shiny crap you need to make a multimedia keyboard and multi-button mouse workJun 05 23:33
DaemonFChehJun 05 23:33
DaemonFCif you say soJun 05 23:33
DaemonFCI'd refer to the ATI situation as a total crapshootJun 05 23:33
DaemonFCand Intel usually works but always mediocreJun 05 23:34
DaemonFCNvidia is the only vendor with a passable driverJun 05 23:34
MinceReven that "passable" is a world of crapJun 05 23:34
DaemonFCwell, I can at least make my Nvidia card work in linuxJun 05 23:34
MinceRi can make it work tooJun 05 23:34
DaemonFCATI and Linux is like the hell of being cut up and soaked in salt waterJun 05 23:35
MinceRat least until compiz crashes, which i'm not sure whose fault isJun 05 23:35
DaemonFCI'm going to say it, FAAC is by far the superior encoder for lossy audio compressionJun 05 23:36
MinceRthen again a friend said i should upgrade the nvidia driver from 180 to 185 and then it's going to suck a lot lessJun 05 23:36
DaemonFCit kicks not only the reference AAC encoders ass, but trounces Vorbis tooJun 05 23:36
schestowitzDaemonFC: take a pillJun 05 23:39
schestowitzATI worked perfectly for me for like 5 yearsJun 05 23:39
schestowitzNo crashesJun 05 23:39
schestowitzSharp picture, 3920 pixels wideJun 05 23:39
schestowitzOne if the screens crapped out 3 months ago, thoughJun 05 23:40
schestowitzWon't switch on.Jun 05 23:40
DaemonFCI will never buy another ATI product againJun 05 23:40
DaemonFCit's not just because they are garbage on LinuxJun 05 23:40
DaemonFCtheir Windows drivers suck tooJun 05 23:40
schestowitzPunching that LCD didn't help, eitherJun 05 23:40
schestowitzSometimes it works with my other onesJun 05 23:41
schestowitzHere at home I'm surrounded by 4 monitorsJun 05 23:41
DaemonFCATI's definition of OEM support is they release ONE driver full of bugs and never update it againJun 05 23:41
schestowitzBull.Jun 05 23:41
schestowitzCheck Phoronix outJun 05 23:41
DaemonFCand good luck trying to get a Radeon Mobile working with their Linux driverJun 05 23:41
schestowitzI didn't see one article per ATI productJun 05 23:41
DaemonFCmine got dropped last monthJun 05 23:41
DaemonFCafter not being supported at all for the first 2 years I had itJun 05 23:42
MinceRiirc phoronix had an article about some ati cards being dropped from support before support for some new x server version came inJun 05 23:42
DaemonFCand getting only mediocre support and inconsistent quality for the last 3 yearsJun 05 23:42
DaemonFCfuck ATIJun 05 23:42
MinceRwhich would mean you're stuck with old x servers with those cardsJun 05 23:42
DaemonFCthey're not getting any of my moneyJun 05 23:42
_goblinRoy: Thanks for linking my Bing article btw....Jun 05 23:42
MinceRthen again i'm not sure how long nvidia is going to keep their "legacy" drivers updatedJun 05 23:43
DaemonFCuhhm, nice tryJun 05 23:43
DaemonFCNvidia's cards ALL work in LinuxJun 05 23:43
MinceRthey really really should just give the code to the kernel devsJun 05 23:43
DaemonFCATI is pure unmitigated dogshitJun 05 23:43
DaemonFCabandoning products from 2005Jun 05 23:43
MinceRthen we could have dri2 and kmsJun 05 23:43
MinceRand stabilityJun 05 23:43
DaemonFCwhile Nvidia cards from 1999 work fineJun 05 23:43
DaemonFCATI sold me their last cardJun 05 23:44
DaemonFCout of two, both were dudsJun 05 23:44
DaemonFCI've bought Nvidia only ever sinceJun 05 23:44
ThistleWebsounds like Rolo loveJun 05 23:44
DaemonFCwell, Nvidia stands behind what they sell, ATI never properly supports most of it to begin with and abandons it first chance they getJun 05 23:45
DaemonFCso they can really just suck my dickJun 05 23:45
ThistleWeb"do you love someone enough to give them your last Rolo?"Jun 05 23:45
DaemonFCthey had their chance at my continued business and lost itJun 05 23:45
DaemonFCAMD has so far failed to turn ATI aroundJun 05 23:48
DaemonFCand the crap just keeps getting churned outJun 05 23:48
MinceRwell, at least they've released reference documentation to driver developersJun 05 23:49
DaemonFCyeah, it's sad reallyJun 05 23:50
MinceRnvidia and ati should really take a page from intel's bookJun 05 23:50
DaemonFCthat the open source driver sucks less than the official driver from the company that makes the devices and has access to much more inside knowledge about themJun 05 23:50
BalrogDaemonFC: I've had the flaky 8600MJun 05 23:51
Balrognot funJun 05 23:51
DaemonFC"Here, do all our driver work for us and we'll still sell the cards to you all at full price"Jun 05 23:51
DaemonFClmaoJun 05 23:51
DaemonFCyeahJun 05 23:51
MinceRyou know, if that yields drivers that work properly, i'd prefer it to having them keep secrets and make a crap proprietary driverJun 05 23:53
DaemonFCand another reason Fedora kicks assJun 05 23:54
MinceR?Jun 05 23:54
DaemonFCa lot of the improvements for that driver are coming from themJun 05 23:54
DaemonFCespecially in proper LCD backlight supportJun 05 23:55
DaemonFCand power efficiencyJun 05 23:55
DaemonFCalso, Fedora is one of the driving forces behind NouveauJun 05 23:55
DaemonFCdon't get me wrong, I'd love to just install the system and have the driver thereJun 05 23:56
DaemonFCand sip my margaritaJun 05 23:56
DaemonFCand no setup hellJun 05 23:56
MinceRicJun 05 23:56
DaemonFCI just think that the companies behind this are being pretty shittyJun 05 23:56
DaemonFCNvidia/ATIJun 05 23:56
DaemonFCthey're not putting any effort into the open source drivers for their own cardsJun 05 23:57
DaemonFCATI gave some documentation and official nodJun 05 23:57
ThistleWebuntil people demand it they wontJun 05 23:57
ThistleWebwhile people dont care, they will keep their secretsJun 05 23:57
MinceRpeople demand itJun 05 23:57
DaemonFCbut the RadeonHD and Nouveau projects get about the same support from ATI/Nvidia past thatJun 05 23:57
ThistleWebI mean "enough people to make a difference in their profits"Jun 05 23:58
MinceRnot going to happenJun 05 23:58
schestowitzApple beats all thoughJun 05 23:58
MinceRuntil m$ is sent where it belongsJun 05 23:58
schestowitzIt knows what's good for youJun 05 23:58
ThistleWebwhile most of their users are windows users who dont care, its not going to happenJun 05 23:58
schestowitzIt shuts downJun 05 23:58
schestowitzWhen it's too hotJun 05 23:58
DaemonFCNvidia's official position for not releasing specs or source is "Users shouldn't have to debug our drivers"Jun 05 23:58
schestowitzShuts down.. not so gracefully :-)Jun 05 23:59
DaemonFCI've had to do more shit working around their drivers than I care to think aboutJun 05 23:59
MinceRnvidia's official position seems more like "we can't be bothered to give a fuck"Jun 05 23:59

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