IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 5th, 2009

yuhong	Actually, NT is themselves portable to other arches like Linux, it is just that most NT apps are closed source so it is not easy to recompile.	Jun 05 00:01
yuhong	While most Linux apps are open source so it is easy to recompile them for any new arch.	Jun 05 00:02
oiaohm	Windows with no applications is basically no use yuhong	Jun 05 00:03
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oiaohm	Besides with Linux you can run x86 applications on anything yuhong	Jun 05 00:03
oiaohm	That is what qemu allows.	Jun 05 00:04
yuhong	Yep, and most Windows applications are closed source so they are not easy to recompile.	Jun 05 00:04
oiaohm	Windows does not have a x86 emulation wrapper.	Jun 05 00:04
oiaohm	So you are stuck.	Jun 05 00:05
yuhong	Look at NT for Alpha for example.	Jun 05 00:05
oiaohm	Yep not even MS Office.	Jun 05 00:05
oiaohm	It was basically dead man walking.	Jun 05 00:06
yuhong	Well, actually MS did release Office 4.2 and 97 for Alpha.	Jun 05 00:06
yuhong	DEC tried to emulate x86 on Alpha with FX!32.	Jun 05 00:06
schestowitz	Hehe. Silly until age 16.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1bo_rNpJAc&feature=related	Jun 05 00:06
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yuhong	Compaq unfortunately killed Alpha for NT just before Windows 2000 got released.	Jun 05 00:08
yuhong	http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2007/08/01/4155462.aspx	Jun 05 00:08
yuhong	BTW, how does an organization become corrupt, usually.	Jun 05 00:11
yuhong	MS also tried to add an x86 emulation layer to Alpha NT as well, see the beta versions of Windows 2000.	Jun 05 00:12
yuhong	Unfortunately, all that was killed just before 2000 got released thanks to Compaq.	Jun 05 00:12
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yuhong	BTW, on bureaucracy, which is better: smart people or dumb people "programmed" by bureaucratic procedures?	Jun 05 00:14
yuhong	That should be a clue what bureaucracy was originally designed for.	Jun 05 00:15
balzac	both smart and dumb people both have their place in society	Jun 05 00:16
balzac	The problem arises when people are wrong, whether their dumb or smart	Jun 05 00:17
yuhong	Yep.	Jun 05 00:17
yuhong	"flexibility in rules hidden in secrecy will let any organisation get more corrupt the longer it exists"	Jun 05 00:17
balzac	s/their/they're/	Jun 05 00:17
yuhong	Another reason why smart people are better than dumb people "programmed" by bureaucratic procedures.	Jun 05 00:17
balzac	"The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions."	Jun 05 00:18
balzac	-- Oliver Wendell Holmes	Jun 05 00:18
yuhong	Yep!	Jun 05 00:18
yuhong	Good thing Google hires smart people instead of using bureaucracy to control dumb people.	Jun 05 00:19
balzac	Even Google will eventually become filled with mediocre people	Jun 05 00:20
balzac	Will Google's leaders by philosophical enough to cope with mediocrity?	Jun 05 00:20
yuhong	How, usually?	Jun 05 00:20
balzac	solidarity among mediocre employees	Jun 05 00:21
balzac	subduing the more advanced cognitors based on self-interests aligned with other mediocre workers	Jun 05 00:22
oiaohm	Google and Sun have been different on internals.	Jun 05 00:23
balzac	actually, this might be an example of superior social intelligence prevailing over intellectual materialism	Jun 05 00:23
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Microsoft Bing News lists articles by a white supremecy group	Jun 05 00:23
oiaohm	Major thing that end with mediocre people is lack of support for people trying new stuff.	Jun 05 00:23
oiaohm	So working there slowly becomes a grind. One the fun goes so does the invent nature.	Jun 05 00:24
oiaohm	One/Once	Jun 05 00:24
balzac	If you get defeated by a group of mediocre intellects (where intellect is measured by cognitive productivity within a specific area such as programming), you've been out-witted by a conspiracy of those who were more socially-aware.	Jun 05 00:26
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balzac	That means you should not make a plan which doesn't include social awareness of those who have the power to scuttle your ambitions	Jun 05 00:26
neighborlee	schestowitz, I suppose you already know, but just in case I found this googling accidentily ..: http://blog.christophersmart.com/articles/mono-an-infectious-disease/	Jun 05 00:27
balzac	or else it's your intellectual failing	Jun 05 00:27
neighborlee	and for anyone else thats interested there it is	Jun 05 00:27
balzac	yuhong: maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Google will maintain an "intellectual aristocracy" for a while	Jun 05 00:28
DaemonFC	unfortunately it's been within my lifetime where I did nothing wrong here and if I did the same thing 100 miles north, in Michigan, or 40 miles east in Ohio, I would have been a felon and could have gotten anything from a fine to life in prison	Jun 05 00:29
balzac	on the other hand, maybe they don't actually have any great intellects, only effective businessmen and good luck	Jun 05 00:29
balzac	who are the deep thinkers or the noteworthy philosophers of Google?	Jun 05 00:29
schestowitz	DaemonFC: you favour censorship?	Jun 05 00:30
DaemonFC	so I just have no use for any religion of hatred or intolerance who wants to turn this country into a Christian version of Iran	Jun 05 00:30
schestowitz	neighborlee: yes, it's there indeed	Jun 05 00:30
neighborlee	heh	Jun 05 00:30
schestowitz	He mailed me about this hoping to get BN feedback, so I posted it	Jun 05 00:30
DaemonFC	they argue that the state has the right to throw me in prison when I've done nothing wrong and nobody else in the world has any reason to care	Jun 05 00:30
schestowitz	Yeah	Jun 05 00:31
schestowitz	Let them talk	Jun 05 00:31
schestowitz	And be laughed at	Jun 05 00:31
schestowitz	Unless they get the gulliable	Jun 05 00:31
schestowitz	/a	Jun 05 00:31
DaemonFC	they call themselves "states rights groups" because they're a bunch of cowards and chickenshits that are afraid to tell people who they really are	Jun 05 00:31
balzac	DaemonFC: have you thought about the ridiculous things you wrote about RMS last time we encountered each other here?	Jun 05 00:31
DaemonFC	and that they really just want religious apartheid	Jun 05 00:31
oiaohm	The idea of rights is so funny.	Jun 05 00:32
schestowitz	Now we're attracting the pro-sw pats trolls... http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/02/us-supreme-court-re-bilski/#comments	Jun 05 00:32
oiaohm	Says that people are allows to do things but no requirement to take responisablity for there own actions.	Jun 05 00:32
DaemonFC	well the thing is that crazy far-right Christian groups only hold sway in a handful of states, they realize that they can never get the whole country so rasicalized that they can persecute gays and lesbians everywhere	Jun 05 00:33
DaemonFC	so they want to do it state by state	Jun 05 00:33
DaemonFC	*radicalized	Jun 05 00:33
balzac	DaemonFC: I think you got carried away when you portrayed RMS as somehow radical	Jun 05 00:34
balzac	I'm quite opposed to religious extremism and committed to individual civil liberties, as is RMS.	Jun 05 00:34
DaemonFC	no	Jun 05 00:35
oiaohm	Yet there bible does not support mistreating people. DaemonFC. They forget the good sumaritin example from jesus.	Jun 05 00:35
DaemonFC	he wants to hand this country to those types on a silver platter	Jun 05 00:35
DaemonFC	along with a bunch of other faux-liberals	Jun 05 00:35
balzac	DaemonFC: that's rhetorical fluff. Where is the substance?	Jun 05 00:35
neighborlee	schestowitz, until you get to patent parts..clearly he doesnt know about latest ecma issues ..but oh well his concern is spot on at leat < pun funny though not initially planned LOL >	Jun 05 00:35
balzac	< DaemonFC> he wants to hand this country to those types on a silver platter	Jun 05 00:35
balzac	that's drivel	Jun 05 00:36
DaemonFC	he's behind a group that not only hates me, they go way beyond most far-right Christians	Jun 05 00:36
DaemonFC	the people RMS sucks up to would behead gays and lesbians	Jun 05 00:36
balzac	what group?	Jun 05 00:36
DaemonFC	so he's terribly misguided	Jun 05 00:36
DaemonFC	the so-called Palestinians	Jun 05 00:36
balzac	you're crazy	Jun 05 00:36
balzac	absolutely crazy	Jun 05 00:36
DaemonFC	no, those types can never be allowed to gain ground, every time it happens, more people suffer under them	Jun 05 00:37
DaemonFC	it's like RMS and Obama want to hand over Israel to the Taliban	Jun 05 00:37
balzac	yeah, right	Jun 05 00:37
yuhong	belzac: MS is a good example. The only reason MS-DOS won was that DR dropped the ball, nothing else	Jun 05 00:37
balzac	RMS supported Kucinich and then Ralph Nader	Jun 05 00:37
balzac	It just so happens, they both disagree with Israeli foreign policy	Jun 05 00:37
DaemonFC	Hamas and the Taliban are really about the same	Jun 05 00:38
balzac	DaemonFC: even an original Zionist, former Knesset member is critical of Israeli foreign policy	Jun 05 00:38
balzac	They really are not the same	Jun 05 00:38
DaemonFC	and it really frightens me that so called liberals and democrats are siding with undemocratic/theocratic religious fascists	Jun 05 00:38
balzac	you're a terribly misinformed person, spreading misinformation like a typhoid mary	Jun 05 00:38
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balzac	you're easily frightened as well as crazy	Jun 05 00:39
balzac	I'm an atheist and I've never sided with theocratic types	Jun 05 00:39
DaemonFC	no, I've seen what every Muslim controlled state does	Jun 05 00:39
DaemonFC	they behead people like me	Jun 05 00:39
DaemonFC	or hang them	Jun 05 00:39
balzac	but neither do I side with screechers like you, who flame the most liberal minds among us	Jun 05 00:40
DaemonFC	so forgive me for not having much sympathy for the most evil religion in the world	Jun 05 00:40
balzac	DaemonFC: Islam and Christianity are both derived from Judaism.	Jun 05 00:40
oiaohm	LOL yuhong	Jun 05 00:40
DaemonFC	no, the liberals want tolerance for people that would have suicide bombed the geneva convention	Jun 05 00:40
oiaohm	DR Dos did not drop the ball.	Jun 05 00:40
DaemonFC	it can't be allowed	Jun 05 00:40
oiaohm	DR Dos was a later clone.	Jun 05 00:40
balzac	DaemonFC: you fail to keep individual accountability in mind.	Jun 05 00:41
yuhong	Yep, I was talking about CP/M-86 back in 1981.	Jun 05 00:41
balzac	I have no tolerance at all for terrorists, gay-bashers, woman-haters.	Jun 05 00:41
oiaohm	MS release windows 3.11 that at first would only work with there version of Dos	Jun 05 00:41
balzac	but I'm smart enough not to tar everyone in a culture with those accusations based on the deeds of a few	Jun 05 00:41
yuhong	Well, only betas actually had the AARD code enabled.	Jun 05 00:41
oiaohm	MS backed piracry.	Jun 05 00:41
DaemonFC	it's not the few	Jun 05 00:41
balzac	but you're an irrational screecher	Jun 05 00:42
oiaohm	So making dos not that profitable.	Jun 05 00:42
DaemonFC	if it was the few, then their government would not murder innocent people	Jun 05 00:42
DaemonFC	Islam is rotten to the very core	Jun 05 00:42
oiaohm	Since MS was being paid by hardware companies it did not matter if MS dos was pirated.	Jun 05 00:42
oiaohm	But to groups like Dr Dos that were not being paid by hardware companies it was a wrecking ball.	Jun 05 00:42
balzac	DaemonFC: for you to attack RMS because he's not a right-wing screecher like you is outrageous.	Jun 05 00:42
yuhong	Yep, the "Microsoft Tax", but DR worked that way as well.	Jun 05 00:42
DaemonFC	I'm not right wing	Jun 05 00:43
DaemonFC	I hate Islam	Jun 05 00:43
yuhong	With CP/M.	Jun 05 00:43
oiaohm	For a while yuhong	Jun 05 00:43
DaemonFC	and for good reason	Jun 05 00:43
balzac	DaemonFC: you're not like me, who writes critical opinions openly under my own name.	Jun 05 00:43
yuhong	What do you mean by "for a while".	Jun 05 00:43
balzac	I've openly criticized those who called for the death of Salman Rushdie, as well as Danish cartoonists.	Jun 05 00:43
oiaohm	DR dos and cp/m stuff was always avaible without hardware.	Jun 05 00:43
DaemonFC	Islam is not worthy of recognition or respect until it decides to no longer be murderous and bloodthirsty	Jun 05 00:44
DaemonFC	then I don't care what they do	Jun 05 00:44
oiaohm	If you wanted it yuhong	Jun 05 00:44
balzac	But you sit there saying "I hate this" and "I hate that" from behind your pseudonym	Jun 05 00:44
balzac	attacking RMS from behind your pseudonym	Jun 05 00:44
oiaohm	The did not back piracy yuhong	Jun 05 00:44
balzac	you're a coward	Jun 05 00:44
DaemonFC	the Muslims are the most evil group in all of history	Jun 05 00:44
yuhong	Correct, actually.	Jun 05 00:44
oiaohm	they did not back piracy yuhong.	Jun 05 00:44
oiaohm	Piracy destroyed them.	Jun 05 00:44
DaemonFC	surpassing any other society easily	Jun 05 00:45
yuhong	MS-DOS was OEM only at first.	Jun 05 00:45
oiaohm	So MS become the most dominate.	Jun 05 00:45
yuhong	Piracy destoryed what?	Jun 05 00:45
DaemonFC	of course I tolerate Muslims, in the same way you tolerate a bad head cold you can't get rid of	Jun 05 00:45
oiaohm	When both were OEM no piracy cp/m and dos were holding there own against each other.	Jun 05 00:45
balzac	DaemonFC: I'm not a coward. I'm willing to say openly that the cleric who called for Salman Rushdie's murder is a fool.	Jun 05 00:45
balzac	I say this as Paul Gaskin	Jun 05 00:45
yuhong	In fact, at first only the code in msdos.sys was licensed to OEMs.	Jun 05 00:45
yuhong	OEMs have to write IO.SYS.	Jun 05 00:46
balzac	But you sit there with your heated rhetoric, lashing out at ideological opponents and friends alike, from behind a pseudonym.	Jun 05 00:46
balzac	Daring to attack a venerable liberal and social visionary, RMS from behind your pseudonym	Jun 05 00:46
DaemonFC	it's not rhetoric	Jun 05 00:46
yuhong	It was not until PC compatibles became common that MS provided a packaged version to DOS to OEMs, that had io.sys.	Jun 05 00:46
DaemonFC	I know what those people do	Jun 05 00:46
balzac	you're a fool	Jun 05 00:46
yuhong	And not until DOS 5.0 that MS began to sell DOS in retail.	Jun 05 00:47
DaemonFC	the only Iranians I sympathize with are the ones that are stuck there and at risk of being murdered	Jun 05 00:47
balzac	DaemonFC: you're not a real liberal, you're a screecher	Jun 05 00:47
DaemonFC	like those gay teenagers	Jun 05 00:47
oiaohm	At the short time after MS provided generic io.sys. Bill Gates come out and said piracy was good for the IT world.	Jun 05 00:47
yuhong	And then only the upgrade version, retail full version had to wait until 6.0.	Jun 05 00:47
oiaohm	Major software piracy leads back to MS.	Jun 05 00:48
oiaohm	It was very effective for MS.	Jun 05 00:48
DaemonFC	the good part of Communism was where it outlawed religion	Jun 05 00:48
balzac	President Obama just named June "Gay Pride Month"	Jun 05 00:48
balzac	were you aware of that DaemonFC ?	Jun 05 00:48
DaemonFC	fuck him, he'll take all the free publicity	Jun 05 00:48
DaemonFC	then do nothing of substance	Jun 05 00:48
yuhong	I figured the trick now.	Jun 05 00:48
balzac	he doesn't want to have sex with you	Jun 05 00:49
balzac	DaemonFC: that has substance	Jun 05 00:49
yuhong	It has to do with piracy and lock-in.	Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFC	no, he's a politician, he'll pander	Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFC	but in the end it's how many votes it costs him to help us	Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFC	so he'll throw us under the bus and sign laws to hurt us	Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFC	like Clinton did with DOMA	Jun 05 00:49
balzac	DaemonFC: better to be a politician like Obama than a screeching coward attacking public names from behind an IRC nick.	Jun 05 00:49
DaemonFC	I say again, Clinton signed DOMA	Jun 05 00:50
oiaohm	Exactly yuhong MS was not selling versions of dos before 5.0 because they were depending on pirary to fill the gaps.	Jun 05 00:50
oiaohm	So effectively destroying there competition with a zero priced product yuhong.	Jun 05 00:50
DaemonFC	the Democrats are giving us "morale support" while at the same time joining the Republicans in doing us actual tangible harm	Jun 05 00:50
DaemonFC	Bush was better for the gay rights movement than Obama or Clinton	Jun 05 00:51
oiaohm	yuhong: MS operations still try to do the same things today.	Jun 05 00:51
DaemonFC	because he at least didn't get the chance to harm us	Jun 05 00:51
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 00:51
balzac	see, you're right-wing	Jun 05 00:51
DaemonFC	no	Jun 05 00:51
DaemonFC	the Democrats and Republicans are Coke and Pepsi	Jun 05 00:51
balzac	Bush was worse	Jun 05 00:51
DaemonFC	two versions of the same thing	Jun 05 00:51
yuhong	On DR-DOS, it began with DR having to write a DOS compatiblity layer on top of CCP/M-86.	Jun 05 00:51
yuhong	Which came from MP/M and MP/M-86, BTW.	Jun 05 00:52
DaemonFC	I doubt John McCain would have been any better or worse than Obama	Jun 05 00:52
balzac	he destabilized the middle east, leading to lots of murders of all kinds of vulnerable minorities, including gays	Jun 05 00:52
oiaohm	Yep basically to create competition yuhong.	Jun 05 00:52
DaemonFC	Obama is a sellout to big business and a false friend of the gay/lesbian community	Jun 05 00:52
DaemonFC	just because McCain was bad does not automatically make Obama better	Jun 05 00:53
oiaohm	Dr-dos did all the right things and basically got screwed.	Jun 05 00:53
balzac	DaemonFC: you're an angstivist	Jun 05 00:53
DaemonFC	Obama is just another Republicrat	Jun 05 00:53
DaemonFC	in a long long line	Jun 05 00:53
balzac	One good artist can do a thousand times more than 1000 angstivists	Jun 05 00:53
DaemonFC	he is an artist	Jun 05 00:54
DaemonFC	a bullshit artist	Jun 05 00:54
DaemonFC	it takes skill to fuck so many people over and convince them all to like you	Jun 05 00:54
balzac	Freddie Mercury's song plays in Yankee Stadium	Jun 05 00:54
yuhong	Early versions of DR-DOS was basically a single user version of what was by then called Concurrent DOS with CP/M-86 compatiblity removed.	Jun 05 00:54
DaemonFC	Bush was not charismatic, that's the only real difference	Jun 05 00:54
balzac	your lonely angstivist screeching is lost into the void, irrelevant	Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFC	Obama came in and before his 2nd full month in office, he increased the national debt by over 33%	Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFC	how is this better?	Jun 05 00:55
oiaohm	yuhong: Remember MSDOS is QDOS what is basically a dirty clone of CP/M-86	Jun 05 00:55
balzac	right wing talking point	Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFC	the stimulus has had no effect at all on the economy	Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFC	it contained a cash handout for everyone on Social Security	Jun 05 00:55
yuhong	Yep, MS bought it from SCP.	Jun 05 00:55
balzac	DaemonFC: just go and join the Republican party and embrace proprietary software, please.	Jun 05 00:55
DaemonFC	because giving people free money worked for Bush in 2008 right?	Jun 05 00:55
oiaohm	yuhong: histroy has repeated. MS did to CP/M-86 that Linux did to Unix.	Jun 05 00:56
DaemonFC	no? it didn't?	Jun 05 00:56
DaemonFC	Obama is operating off the same playbooks as Bush and Clinton	Jun 05 00:56
DaemonFC	the only thing that ever changes is the lip service	Jun 05 00:56
schestowitz	The pro-sw pats lobbying is spamming us now: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/27/software-patents-in-the-united-states/#comments	Jun 05 00:56
oiaohm	CP/M-86 was a nice OS for its day.	Jun 05 00:57
balzac	DaemonFC: screeching false accusations from behind anonymity is without merit.	Jun 05 00:57
DaemonFC	I'd really just be happy if Obama did one of two things Balzac 1. Help those he claims to support. or 2. At least get the hell out of the way and not make it worse	Jun 05 00:57
balzac	DaemonFC: out of the way of a coward who won't even put his own name to his words?	Jun 05 00:58
DaemonFC	all I'm asking is that he put up or shut up	Jun 05 00:58
balzac	you put up or shut up	Jun 05 00:58
balzac	I'd ban you if I were an op	Jun 05 00:58
DaemonFC	Obama is lip service to the gay community	Jun 05 00:58
balzac	nope	Jun 05 00:58
DaemonFC	and he will probably not be getting my vote in 2012 unless he starts putting some action to back up his promises	Jun 05 00:58
balzac	you wish he gave you 'lip-service'	Jun 05 00:59
balzac	but instead, June is "Gay Pride Month"	Jun 05 00:59
DaemonFC	I voted for him in 2008 because what he was saying sounded good	Jun 05 00:59
balzac	not a week, but a whole month like "Black History Month"	Jun 05 00:59
DaemonFC	but it's obvious now he's a poser	Jun 05 00:59
balzac	nope, it's not obvious at all	Jun 05 00:59
balzac	There's plenty of time yet for more changes	Jun 05 01:00
balzac	What about torture?	Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFC	he better get with the program because there's a lot of people that understand that he's kissing ass with our enembies and not fullsilling any of his campaign promises	Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFC	to his core supporters	Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFC	including myself	Jun 05 01:00
balzac	"our enemies"	Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFC	*enemies	Jun 05 01:00
balzac	your enemies are not necessarily President Obama's enemies, and not mine either	Jun 05 01:00
DaemonFC	yes, the Taliban and Hamas, terrorist organizations that want the death of all Israelis	Jun 05 01:01
balzac	I'm an atheist who supports 100% respect for individual civil liberties of gays as well as everyone else	Jun 05 01:01
DaemonFC	and anyone they percieve as non muslim or "Less" muslim	Jun 05 01:01
balzac	but you go and smear the names of great and historical men, while not putting your own name on it	Jun 05 01:01
yuhong	What is interesting is that even Alpha NT had support for 16-bit Windows and DOS apps.	Jun 05 01:02
DaemonFC	"I hereby declare Gay Rights Month while I work to maintain the status quo, while the army is kicking out 2,5000 of them per month"	Jun 05 01:02
DaemonFC	yay Obama!	Jun 05 01:02
DaemonFC	*2,500	Jun 05 01:02
balzac	I'd have taken a clearer stance than Obama on just about every issue, but I didn't get elected.	Jun 05 01:02
balzac	I'm not going to win even if I run for City Council, much less president.	Jun 05 01:03
DaemonFC	he's like Bill Clinton and Al Gore, who slashed funding for NASA but showed up for all the photo ops	Jun 05 01:03
DaemonFC	that's how Obama is regarding gay rights	Jun 05 01:03
balzac	DaemonFC: your turd friend Bush has made things very difficult.	Jun 05 01:03
balzac	you're not representing gay people, you're representing gay angstivists who hide behind pseudonyms	Jun 05 01:03
balzac	Barney Frank is out and very public	Jun 05 01:04
balzac	he is representing, not you.	Jun 05 01:04
balzac	Also, activists can't claim to be more important than those who are just openly gay, yet mind their own business.	Jun 05 01:05
DaemonFC	balzac: Name one tangible benefit Obama has given to the gay community	Jun 05 01:05
DaemonFC	barring lip service	Jun 05 01:05
DaemonFC	Telol me why he's more of an asset than George W. Bush	Jun 05 01:06
DaemonFC	*tell	Jun 05 01:06
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DaemonFC	in this regard	Jun 05 01:06
DaemonFC	go ahead	Jun 05 01:06
DaemonFC	anything	Jun 05 01:06
balzac	name one tangible thing he's done for any constituency, except for expell the fear and restore confidence in government	Jun 05 01:06
balzac	he's dissappointing everyone so far	Jun 05 01:06
DaemonFC	has he stopped Don't Ask Don't Tell? Or did that guy that came out on national TV this month NOT just get kicked out of the army?	Jun 05 01:06
DaemonFC	please tell me where that was all over the news and I jsut dreamed it up	Jun 05 01:07
balzac	israel, palestine, christian fundies, gays, women, etc.	Jun 05 01:07
balzac	who has not yet been disappointed?	Jun 05 01:07
mtnd3w	hi all	Jun 05 01:07
DaemonFC	Christian fundies would like him for being totally useless to gay rights groups	Jun 05 01:07
DaemonFC	except he kisses the Taliban's collective ass	Jun 05 01:07
DaemonFC	Obama is the albatross/white elephant of gay rights groups	Jun 05 01:08
DaemonFC	true politician playing both sides down the middle	Jun 05 01:09
balzac	DaemonFC: this is #boycottnovell, not #boycott-everyone-who-isnt-a-gay-anti-palestine-republican	Jun 05 01:10
DaemonFC	I am not a Republican	Jun 05 01:10
balzac	pretty close, I'd say	Jun 05 01:10
balzac	I'd rather you were	Jun 05 01:11
DaemonFC	Why? Because the Democrats are almost as disgusting?	Jun 05 01:11
DaemonFC	Because you are fooling yourself if you think they aren't?	Jun 05 01:11
balzac	To the extent they coddle religious funamentalists, they're both revolting	Jun 05 01:11
DaemonFC	my point exactly	Jun 05 01:12
DaemonFC	glad you agree	Jun 05 01:12
balzac	but some people are screeching angstivists, while others are enduring, non-compromising life-stylists	Jun 05 01:12
DaemonFC	I'll vote for the candidate	Jun 05 01:12
DaemonFC	I don't consider myself loyal to either party	Jun 05 01:13
balzac	I support your individual civil liberties 100% and I'm straight, but that's because I'm intellectually honest and a non-superstitious atheist.	Jun 05 01:13
balzac	Well, I've seen you lash out at a true liberal, completely misrepresenting his views.	Jun 05 01:13
balzac	two, really	Jun 05 01:13
neighborlee	I m sorry but I dont see obama as coddling anyone or anything..he's very clear on h is objectives..he is trying his best to be a uniter, not a divider	Jun 05 01:13
balzac	RMS is a proven liberal, President Obama is looking pretty good too	Jun 05 01:13
DaemonFC	I've voted for some Republicansm not many but a few	Jun 05 01:13
balzac	and your attacks on RMS have been without merit	Jun 05 01:14
balzac	I've never voted for Republican	Jun 05 01:14
balzac	We're different that way	Jun 05 01:14
DaemonFC	I voted for Senator Lugar after he said he was not going to vote for that constitutional marriage discrimination amendment	Jun 05 01:14
DaemonFC	well, Democrats in Congress have typically only been good for one thing	Jun 05 01:15
balzac	DaemonFC: you could do a lot more than attack good liberals from behind a pseudonym	Jun 05 01:15
DaemonFC	stalling for time while we work our way through the courts	Jun 05 01:15
DaemonFC	well, I'm just not all that sure about Obama for a number of alarming things he's done	Jun 05 01:16
neighborlee	like what	Jun 05 01:16
DaemonFC	"palling around" with RIAA/MPAA	Jun 05 01:16
balzac	that's because you're like chicken-little, screeching about the sky falling	Jun 05 01:16
DaemonFC	appointing Microsoft executives to his cabinet	Jun 05 01:17
neighborlee	in what capacity	Jun 05 01:17
neighborlee	but i agree, likely that person is pure evil.	Jun 05 01:17
DaemonFC	no, he really has said and done a lot of things that are questionable at best and a downright conflict of interest at their worst	Jun 05 01:17
balzac	DaemonFC: more information, less opinion, please	Jun 05 01:18
DaemonFC	like having Joe Biden tell the MPAA, promise them, that they "will like" his new "Copyright Czar"	Jun 05 01:18
DaemonFC	at an MPAA luncheon that Biden attended	Jun 05 01:18
*neighborlee hopes his sarcasm was evident..I dont believe M$ is evil, just misdirected..		Jun 05 01:18
DaemonFC	Microsoft is no more or less intrinsically evil than any company that wants to make money	Jun 05 01:19
DaemonFC	the problem is their size and resources	Jun 05 01:19
neighborlee	well welcome to capaitalism...like or not..its our CURRENT system..	Jun 05 01:19
DaemonFC	and it's not good when they have the ear of the president	Jun 05 01:19
oiaohm	schestowitz: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/27/software-patents-in-the-united-states/comment-page-1/#comment-64930 read my answer there to the patent problem. Patent problem is through the complete patent system.	Jun 05 01:19
balzac	DaemonFC: what do you think of "Perez Hilton" outing other gays, who weren't even really in the closet?	Jun 05 01:19
oiaohm	DaemonFC: MS is not the biggest companies out there.	Jun 05 01:20
DaemonFC	not helpful	Jun 05 01:20
oiaohm	So there size and resources is not a factor.	Jun 05 01:20
oiaohm	there are others with more who treat market better.	Jun 05 01:20
DaemonFC	by becoming that kind of a figure Perez Hilton has become kind of like our very own Ann Coulter	Jun 05 01:20
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes, just seen it	Jun 05 01:20
schestowitz	I replied too	Jun 05 01:20
DaemonFC	a counterproductive embarassment	Jun 05 01:20
DaemonFC	who is occasionally funny to gawk at	Jun 05 01:20
neighborlee	DaemonFC,hey..companies have the right to make money..and our right to advance alternatives ..free choice and M$ knows is losing ground..c'est la vie.	Jun 05 01:21
balzac	well, at least he's putting his own name on it.	Jun 05 01:21
oiaohm	Lot of what MS does is technically illegal and the regulators just run a blind eye to it.	Jun 05 01:21
neighborlee	ann coulter=hate..real shame.	Jun 05 01:21
DaemonFC	Well, as long as you have a right to refuse it and a reasonable expectation of access to a competing product	Jun 05 01:21
balzac	yeah, that's probably not fair to say of Perez Hilton	Jun 05 01:21
DaemonFC	I don't see why they can't sell it	Jun 05 01:22
balzac	Anne Coulter is a real sicki	Jun 05 01:22
oiaohm	If I decided to drop 1 million tones of food on the USA poor to make my product popular I would be killed by USA law.	Jun 05 01:22
balzac	what has Perez Hilton said to equal the depravity of Anne Coulter?	Jun 05 01:22
DaemonFC	of course that's in the ideal situation	Jun 05 01:22
oiaohm	MS walks up and does the software equal. Nothing happens DaemonFC.	Jun 05 01:22
balzac	I think you're probably exaggerating again, DaemonFC	Jun 05 01:22
oiaohm	We have regulators asleep.	Jun 05 01:22
DaemonFC	if MS Office and OpenOffice both had the same format support and were competing strictly on merit and user preference, for example	Jun 05 01:22
DaemonFC	the problem of course is that this is not what is happening	Jun 05 01:23
balzac	Perez Hilton is quite annoying, but probably much more responsible in how he treats others reputations than you are.	Jun 05 01:23
neighborlee	DaemonFC, yes its starting	Jun 05 01:23
balzac	woops, you failed to answer	Jun 05 01:23
balzac	what has Perez Hilton said to equal the depravity of Anne Coulter?	Jun 05 01:23
DaemonFC	well, calling attention to other peoples sexuality in a homophobic culture	Jun 05 01:23
oiaohm	KOffice and Openoffice will be facing each other on there merits.	Jun 05 01:23
DaemonFC	that's pretty pathetic	Jun 05 01:24
oiaohm	So there will be compeition even if MS does not join.	Jun 05 01:24
neighborlee	DaemonFC, odt support IN wordpad, IN windows 7	Jun 05 01:24
oiaohm	Its why OpenOffice has had to get faster.	Jun 05 01:24
balzac	that's not nearly as outrageous as Anne Coulter's worst sayings	Jun 05 01:24
neighborlee	balzac, agreed,,she is really nasty	Jun 05 01:24
balzac	Anne Coulter is one of the people who make life dangerous for gays among other minorities	Jun 05 01:24
DaemonFC	yes, but Ann Coulter's damage is mitigated by the sheer stupidity of what she says	Jun 05 01:24
DaemonFC	and she has an adam's apple	Jun 05 01:24
oiaohm	Its like the Gnome vs KDE is grew a lot of development for the problems it caused.	Jun 05 01:24
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 01:24
neighborlee	balzac, not reallly	Jun 05 01:24
balzac	"Perez Hilton" was being an irresponsible prick, but he's no Anne Coulter. He's just a noisy angstivist, but one who puts his own name on it.	Jun 05 01:25
neighborlee	balzac, its not anything SHE does..its the mood of those around her..that stoop to her level and agree WITH her....thats how things happen..people stress their opnions when they know there is an 'audience'	Jun 05 01:25
neighborlee	its somettimes takes ages,,years for certain rights to come online..because the 'mood' of the populus is against it...witch trials anyone ? ;))	Jun 05 01:26
balzac	Like the right to have a divorce	Jun 05 01:27
neighborlee	that too	Jun 05 01:27
balzac	or a child out of wedlock	Jun 05 01:27
balzac	or more than one spouse	Jun 05 01:27
neighborlee	well ick to that one anyway	Jun 05 01:27
balzac	It is ironic to see gays and mormons at each others' throats	Jun 05 01:27
neighborlee	to each his own..I never have understgood how multiple spouses coud end in anything but bitterness and jealousy	Jun 05 01:27
neighborlee	balzac, true that	Jun 05 01:28
balzac	to each his own	Jun 05 01:28
DaemonFC	Yeah, they came to my door	Jun 05 01:28
balzac	marraige rights for gays and marraige rights for mormons are very similar	Jun 05 01:28
DaemonFC	I told them that they had until I got back to leave, before I shot them as intruders on my property	Jun 05 01:28
neighborlee	well I truly believe in ,,do as thou will, thou it harm none	Jun 05 01:28
balzac	both are not accepted by the mainstream, both are vying for the right to marry, yet critical of the other	Jun 05 01:28
neighborlee	mormons can't marry, what was that ? ;0--	Jun 05 01:29
balzac	DaemonFC: that's pretty ugly of you.	Jun 05 01:29
DaemonFC	I've had about all I'm going to take of them	Jun 05 01:29
DaemonFC	I'm not going to have them bring it to me in person	Jun 05 01:30
oiaohm	schestowitz: should really do a artical on why the complete patent system is busted.	Jun 05 01:30
balzac	well, i hope it was an empty threat, because shooting "intruders" who have not brought weapons, who've announced their presence in broad daylight, and who hoped to pursuade you with a conversation would be a criminal act.	Jun 05 01:30
balzac	DaemonFC: are you against their right to marry?	Jun 05 01:31
schestowitz	What Does Microsoft Want From Spain? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-wants-spain/ >	Jun 05 01:31
DaemonFC	I'm against their entire organization	Jun 05 01:31
schestowitz	oiaohm: many articles exist	Jun 05 01:31
balzac	DaemonFC: are you against their right to marry?	Jun 05 01:31
schestowitz	I will do another, thanks	Jun 05 01:31
balzac	simple question	Jun 05 01:31
DaemonFC	in what sense?	Jun 05 01:31
DaemonFC	In that they deny to others what they demand for themselves?	Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC	in that case yes I do opposer their right to marry	Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC	until such time as I have the same right	Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 01:32
balzac	DaemonFC: are you against their right to marry? (very simple question. I did not attach your conditional.)	Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC	*oppose	Jun 05 01:32
balzac	direct, simple question.	Jun 05 01:32
balzac	no conditional.	Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC	until such time as everyone has the right	Jun 05 01:32
DaemonFC	yes	Jun 05 01:32
balzac	you sound like a partisan in the I/P dispute	Jun 05 01:33
DaemonFC	otherwise we just have a caste system	Jun 05 01:33
balzac	see, mutually-assured oppression	Jun 05 01:33
balzac	DaemonFC: you should support their right to marry unconditionally	Jun 05 01:33
neighborlee	DaemonFC, well at least thats honest..I commend you for that position..similar to brad pit etal	Jun 05 01:33
balzac	and they should support your right to marry, unconditionally	Jun 05 01:33
balzac	but you're a very subjective type	Jun 05 01:33
DaemonFC	then the fucking Scientologists came to my door and asked if I was depressed	Jun 05 01:34
neighborlee	he's ,,just frustrated ;)	Jun 05 01:34
balzac	you suffer a kind of myopia	Jun 05 01:34
DaemonFC	I told them I was going to put a depression in their skulls ifthey didn't get the hell out	Jun 05 01:34
balzac	DaemonFC: once again, very ugly	Jun 05 01:34
balzac	there's a common denominator here - overt hostility	Jun 05 01:35
neighborlee	however having said that..yes we cant' deny rights to those due to our own circumstances..we know our day will come, until then we dont want to lower ourselves into the sewer, along with them.	Jun 05 01:35
balzac	I've sat down at a scientologists table in a subway station in NYC and amused myself	Jun 05 01:35
balzac	I held the conductors of their "e-meter"	Jun 05 01:35
neighborlee	DaemonFC, we lift ourselves up in compassion, and before you know it, everyone feels similarly...doesnt' hurt to fight for our rights though maintaing civil discourse never hoit :)) < no one perfect though>	Jun 05 01:35
balzac	and it was amusing to me	Jun 05 01:35
neighborlee	:)	Jun 05 01:36
balzac	but I didn't get foul-tempered, nor did I compromise even a little on my beliefs.	Jun 05 01:36
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DaemonFC	Scientology is a cult that basically exists to extract all of its victims money	Jun 05 01:36
DaemonFC	then throw them away	Jun 05 01:37
DaemonFC	or turn them into slave laborers	Jun 05 01:37
balzac	not unlike some of the older, larger religions	Jun 05 01:37
balzac	gee, sounds like a very familiar recipe	Jun 05 01:37
DaemonFC	no, the others typically bleed you for a small recurring amount	Jun 05 01:37
DaemonFC	the Scientologists are more smash and grab	Jun 05 01:37
balzac	well, they don't have the same "economy of scale" that the more established "religions" enjoy	Jun 05 01:38
balzac	give them time and they'll take less from a lot more people	Jun 05 01:38
balzac	but I'd rather see people be rational	Jun 05 01:38
ThistleWeb	the longer the scam, the more people will see the flaws and start to think about them	Jun 05 01:38
DaemonFC	The German government investigated Windows 2000 for a possible backdoor	Jun 05 01:40
DaemonFC	after findout out that the Scientologists wrote Defrag.exe	Jun 05 01:40
DaemonFC	*finding out	Jun 05 01:40
ThistleWeb	DaemonFC, only one?	Jun 05 01:40
DaemonFC	The Germans have the good sense to not do any business with dangerous cults	Jun 05 01:41
balzac	except for the ones over 1000 years old, perhaps?	Jun 05 01:41
balzac	suddenly, dangerous cults are ok after 1000 years of growth and 1,000,000,000 faithful	Jun 05 01:41
balzac	as if McDonalds is suddenly healthy after 1B served	Jun 05 01:42
ThistleWeb	McDonalds may be healthy but I question the health of their loyal customers	Jun 05 01:42
balzac	DaemonFC: seems like you prefer to keep the focus of your angstivism within a myopic scope, or else you'd be forced to become more philosophical about things.	Jun 05 01:43
balzac	none of the problems which frustrate you the most will be solved within your lifetime	Jun 05 01:45
balzac	That is one of the traits of an angstivist - spinning your wheels furiously about things which aren't likely to change	Jun 05 01:46
balzac	at least you should enjoy your life's work if it's going to be entirely existential in its nature	Jun 05 01:47
mtnd3w	do you guys think as GNU/Linux grows, there will be a lot of forces trying to pull it apart?	Jun 05 01:47
balzac	that means have a good mood	Jun 05 01:47
neighborlee	mtnd3w, you cant' pull apart a house with a good foundation	Jun 05 01:47
neighborlee	ymmv	Jun 05 01:47
balzac	mtnd3w: yes	Jun 05 01:47
balzac	there already are, and it is loosely knit together	Jun 05 01:48
ThistleWeb	mtnd3w, there already are, Novell / Microsoft & Mono is only a start	Jun 05 01:48
mtnd3w	neighborlee: i hope not	Jun 05 01:48
balzac	also there is Android, (Linux without GNU)	Jun 05 01:48
mtnd3w	ThistleWeb: yes, thats one of the signs it seems like	Jun 05 01:48
ThistleWeb	glad to see the FAT / TomTom suit causing more distros to be sceptical about Mono	Jun 05 01:48
neighborlee	mtnd3w, :)but that foundation takes work..and sometimes reminders from the community whats important, and why	Jun 05 01:48
neighborlee	ThistleWeb, ditto	Jun 05 01:49
DaemonFC	pull it apart? There's hundreds of different distros already	Jun 05 01:49
DaemonFC	I'd say stupid and pointless forks are a big problem	Jun 05 01:49
neighborlee	DaemonFC, yes and in that regard..it pulls itself apart...	Jun 05 01:49
neighborlee	Ive said that for years--	Jun 05 01:49
neighborlee	as have many others	Jun 05 01:49
ThistleWeb	if peeps want it, then cool but like mp3 codecs, legally its safer to not ship them and give an option to get them post install if the user wants them	Jun 05 01:50
DaemonFC	no matter what you choose, there's always a few packages that are only made for the other one	Jun 05 01:50
oiaohm	Linux is already ripped into bits mtnd3w	Jun 05 01:50
neighborlee	ThistleWeb, totally agreed..ogg is preferrable..but mp3 installer if need be yes	Jun 05 01:50
DaemonFC	but that's why a lot of people are unwillingly being coerced into using Ubuntu	Jun 05 01:50
DaemonFC	if there's going to be a package made for one distro, it'll be theirs	Jun 05 01:51
oiaohm	There are two forces in the Open Source world. The merging force and the dividing force.	Jun 05 01:51
mtnd3w	oiaohm: i came across the thought after reading the DRM kernel article posted here	Jun 05 01:51
oiaohm	Once divided so far maintaining becomes too hard.	Jun 05 01:51
oiaohm	So merging force appears.	Jun 05 01:51
neighborlee	DaemonFC, there are heroes amoungst us..though they dont want the label, its true nonetheless..we can each play a role in freedom, its our choice.	Jun 05 01:51
oiaohm	Cycle of dividing and merging repeats over and over again in the Open source world.	Jun 05 01:52
mtnd3w	neighborlee: this is why understanding free software is very important i guess	Jun 05 01:52
neighborlee	it is yes	Jun 05 01:52
ThistleWeb	a large part of the issue is that for ages, people haven't known anything other than windows	Jun 05 01:52
oiaohm	Taking on open standards is one of the major merging forces.	Jun 05 01:52
neighborlee	oiaohm, too much so...6months release cycle is way too often imho	Jun 05 01:52
ThistleWeb	the more time goes by, the more people see there ARE other PCs	Jun 05 01:52
neighborlee	oiaohm, and fedora being willling to ' wait' until it 'ready' is a goood indicator maybe they finally get that	Jun 05 01:53
ThistleWeb	that dent is something microsoft dont want to grow	Jun 05 01:53
ThistleWeb	but it will, specially in netbooks	Jun 05 01:53
neighborlee	yo u can NOT have SOLID, QA after just 6 lousy months..its not vialbe	Jun 05 01:53
neighborlee	viable	Jun 05 01:53
DaemonFC	Fedora has always been fairly uncaring as to whether it's "ready"	Jun 05 01:53
neighborlee	more so latley	Jun 05 01:53
DaemonFC	maybe the sudden influx of users have changed them	Jun 05 01:53
oiaohm	Linux kernel maintains solid QA on a 3 month cycle. Design says how fast you can have releases and keep quality.	Jun 05 01:54
ThistleWeb	I've thought for a while that 6mth is a tad short, perhaps the quality would be better on 8mth	Jun 05 01:54
ThistleWeb	9mth*	Jun 05 01:54
neighborlee	not unlike blizzard entertainment..maybe fedoa will b ecome better and better willing to wait until its really 'ready' ;))	Jun 05 01:54
oiaohm	Biggest limit to solid QA is the lack of means in distributions to install more than 1 version of a program.	Jun 05 01:54
ThistleWeb	but then, if you want a solid, stable, well tested distro you have Debian or CentOS	Jun 05 01:54
oiaohm	So users can try beta versions and report problems without having everything beta.	Jun 05 01:55
neighborlee	ThistleWeb, at leat	Jun 05 01:55
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ThistleWeb	yep	Jun 05 01:55
neighborlee	I mean, it doessn't hurt windows does it, that it releases ONCE every few years ?	Jun 05 01:55
oiaohm	Both are you are looking at the problem wrong.	Jun 05 01:55
ThistleWeb	choice is one of the values of FOSS	Jun 05 01:55
oiaohm	Debian runs into trouble with items like clamav.	Jun 05 01:55
neighborlee	vista not withstanding LOL	Jun 05 01:55
DaemonFC	the Iranian election is refreshingly different	Jun 05 01:55
oiaohm	They are many things for secuirty you must update.	Jun 05 01:55
DaemonFC	Ahmadinejad may get replaced with a much more moderate candidate	Jun 05 01:56
oiaohm	So you do need a fast QA system.	Jun 05 01:56
oiaohm	MS is really doing releases more than once every few years.	Jun 05 01:56
neighborlee	if that is so true.explain why linux releases have been SO horrible	Jun 05 01:56
neighborlee	all of them	Jun 05 01:56
neighborlee	ubuntu, mandriva, fedora..all of them shabby	Jun 05 01:56
oiaohm	The problem is in packaging.	Jun 05 01:56
oiaohm	Not the release time.	Jun 05 01:57
neighborlee	elaborate please	Jun 05 01:57
oiaohm	If you could stay with older versions of programs like old version of X11 that just happend to work. yet have everything else new. That would prevent what happen with ubuntu and intel cards.	Jun 05 01:57
ThistleWeb	one big difference I see with Windows compared to FOSS or Linux is that when someone says "the new version has .... feature, just upgrade" in Windows that means you need to shell out more cash, so the advice could be a sales drone pretending to be support. In FOSS / Linux it tends to be free to upgrade	Jun 05 01:58
neighborlee	nasty intel yes in ubuntu...that was horrid	Jun 05 01:58
oiaohm	Because some cards worked with the old X11 and some worked with the new.	Jun 05 01:58
oiaohm	So the new distrobution hurt like hell.	Jun 05 01:58
oiaohm	There are times where just have 1 package of something is not suitable.	Jun 05 01:58
neighborlee	ThistleWeb, yes..foss is truly amazing in that its the great e qualizer	Jun 05 01:58
oiaohm	Allowing multiable allows rolling QA	Jun 05 01:58
neighborlee	oiaohm, how was that missed though ?	Jun 05 01:59
ThistleWeb	proprietary software tends to only give new features if it can monetise them, or hold them back as carrots to buy the new version	Jun 05 01:59
neighborlee	oiaohm, blame on shoddy qa, or a package where they just forgot to include all cards ,,or what	Jun 05 01:59
neighborlee	both ?	Jun 05 01:59
oiaohm	Most update sysems in distributions are designed to update to latest.	Jun 05 01:59
oiaohm	Even when it not suitable.	Jun 05 01:59
neighborlee	of course	Jun 05 02:00
oiaohm	Neither X11 server was exactly shoddy neighborlee.	Jun 05 02:00
neighborlee	well either way the user suffered	Jun 05 02:00
neighborlee	as you hear it time and time again, on new linux releases	Jun 05 02:00
ThistleWeb	proprietary software also tends to be built to make money, which means feature bloat as carrots to get you to buy something you already have	Jun 05 02:00
oiaohm	Users should not have suffered.	Jun 05 02:00
neighborlee	and,,linux imho deserves better..people deseve better	Jun 05 02:00
oiaohm	would it been a issue if users could have chosen to use the old version when the new version did not work for them.	Jun 05 02:01
neighborlee	the point is..	Jun 05 02:01
oiaohm	Even with the best QA you are not going to find every bug.	Jun 05 02:01
neighborlee	the pereption,,that linux doesn't work	Jun 05 02:01
neighborlee	regardless of how it got there..	Jun 05 02:01
oiaohm	Its just impossiable.	Jun 05 02:01
oiaohm	So what is the next best thing.	Jun 05 02:02
yuhong	From http://oreilly.com/news/amazon_patents.html:	Jun 05 02:02
yuhong	"That business method and software patents should have a much shorter lifespan than the current 17 years -- I would propose 3 to 5 years. "	Jun 05 02:02
oiaohm	Have a plan b for when a problem slips past.	Jun 05 02:02
neighborlee	oiaohm, yes..some clever script to sense such things and fallback()	Jun 05 02:02
oiaohm	That is where distribution are failing people neighborlee. There is no plan b.	Jun 05 02:02
oiaohm	Take MS with service packs.	Jun 05 02:02
neighborlee	oiaohm, mandriva had..something sorta similar..not perfect but it did effectively work	Jun 05 02:03
schestowitz	What the Corrosive Relationship Between Microsoft and Cisco Means to GNU/Linux < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-and-cisco-tensions/ >	Jun 05 02:03
schestowitz	oiaohm will like it	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	There is a way to uninstall a service pack if it really breaks it.	Jun 05 02:03
neighborlee	oiaohm, agreed,,,about no plan B	Jun 05 02:03
neighborlee	overall anyway	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	So you can drop back.	Jun 05 02:03
neighborlee	exactly	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	If you have to.	Jun 05 02:03
neighborlee	restore points	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	People are looking in the wrong place.	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	They are saying QA is failing.	Jun 05 02:03
yuhong	The 1-click patent reexam was at least 7 years after the patent was granted, probably more.	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	Its not.	Jun 05 02:03
oiaohm	QA is working as good as QA does.	Jun 05 02:03
neighborlee	yes and no.I cant completey agree	Jun 05 02:04
neighborlee	sometimes..they is just TOO much choice..	Jun 05 02:04
neighborlee	it confuses people	Jun 05 02:04
oiaohm	QA will always fail.	Jun 05 02:04
yuhong	http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/16/1229242	Jun 05 02:04
oiaohm	You can bet on it.	Jun 05 02:04
neighborlee	oiaohm, at some point,it certainy willl, atm anyway :)	Jun 05 02:04
yuhong	Anyone paying attension.	Jun 05 02:04
neighborlee	they/there	Jun 05 02:04
yuhong	If this reform was done, the reexam would not have existed.	Jun 05 02:05
yuhong	I was meaning to mention it for a while.	Jun 05 02:05
oiaohm	Basically distributions need to grow up. They have to provide a way to run new with old.	Jun 05 02:05
ThistleWeb	dont BSD do that? where lib files for each app are separate?	Jun 05 02:06
oiaohm	So that people are not effected by QA failures.	Jun 05 02:06
yuhong	No one is interested?	Jun 05 02:07
neonfloss	dont take this in the wrong way, but I wonder how much could be accomplished if all the talking and passion in this channel could be traded in for something..	Jun 05 02:07
ThistleWeb	so if an updated lib file on one app breaks another in Linux, both are running their own lib files in BSD	Jun 05 02:07
oiaohm	ThistleWeb: it something bsd has had right for a while.	Jun 05 02:07
oiaohm	Linux users need to start demarding it.	Jun 05 02:08
ThistleWeb	for some reason ports is springing to mind	Jun 05 02:08
ThistleWeb	I tried FreeBSD once ages ago but never got it installed right	Jun 05 02:08
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oiaohm	FreeBSD good packaging design poor hardware support on adverage.	Jun 05 02:09
ThistleWeb	I thought the FreeBSD installer was hella complicated	Jun 05 02:09
oiaohm	Yep that too.	Jun 05 02:09
ThistleWeb	but then, this was a while back and I'm much more naturalised to Linux now, so maybe I'd have a different view now	Jun 05 02:10
ThistleWeb	or maybe FreeBSD wasn'yt the best choice for me at the time	Jun 05 02:10
oiaohm	Its so simple to look at the wrong cause of failure.	Jun 05 02:10
oiaohm	Most linux's have good installers.	Jun 05 02:10
oiaohm	Its something they got right lot sooner than the BSD's some of the BSDs are still trying to sort it out.	Jun 05 02:11
DaemonFC	http://www.schooner.com/~loverso/no-ads/	Jun 05 02:11
DaemonFC	heh	Jun 05 02:11
DaemonFC	it works too	Jun 05 02:11
DaemonFC	well, I thought it did	Jun 05 02:26
DaemonFC	it has some issues	Jun 05 02:26
schestowitz	“ODF is Going to Be National Standard for Document[s] in Vietnam Too” < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/odf-and-vietnam/ >	Jun 05 02:30
schestowitz	Hehe.	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	"It is most difficult to make correct decisions when it comes to the stock	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	market, but I guessed right (for the time being).	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	In March of this year, I reinvested 50% of the money I had parked when I	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	withdrew from Wall Street back in July of 2008.	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	In April I invested the other 50% because I felt the Economic Stimulus	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	money that was to be sent to taxpayers and retired people in May would boost	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	the economy.	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	Whether that premise was the reason the Dow Jones average started to ascend	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	or not, whatever, I am up 20% in a short span and that’s fantastic.	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	The only truth about the market is it does not respond to logic or what we	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	see in the news; rather, it is contrarian and seems to have a mind of its	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	own.	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	"	Jun 05 02:32
schestowitz	Obama made things worse by worsening the deficit. Wait and watch...	Jun 05 02:32
ThistleWeb	I wonder which government is going to charge Microsoft with attempted fraud over Microsoft lobbyists lying to politicians to get a resign of a Microsoft contract when FOSS is on the table	Jun 05 02:35
ThistleWeb	re-sign*	Jun 05 02:35
ThistleWeb	whether thats windows or office	Jun 05 02:36
oiaohm	As ODF numbers grow pressure on MS to support it also grows.	Jun 05 02:37
ThistleWeb	whether it's patent FUD, odf FUD, TOC FUD or any other type of FUD	Jun 05 02:37
ThistleWeb	it's one thing to be selective about where you focus, its something else to outright lie	Jun 05 02:38
ThistleWeb	if you knowingly use a skewed report to spin your sales pitch, you're knowingly lying	Jun 05 02:38
ThistleWeb	you could also charge Microsoft with endangering national security when the military PCs can get easily infected	Jun 05 02:40
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY	Jun 05 02:44
DaemonFC	Obama's speech in Cairo	Jun 05 02:44
tessier	schestowitz: Nice	Jun 05 02:48
schestowitz	Vietnam?	Jun 05 02:48
tessier	Yes	Jun 05 02:48
tessier	I think I might know that person...	Jun 05 02:49
schestowitz	I thought so	Jun 05 02:49
tessier	The name ca vang (goldfish) is familiar...	Jun 05 02:49
schestowitz	You know them all	Jun 05 02:49
schestowitz	Yes	Jun 05 02:49
tessier	That's his twitter name at least.	Jun 05 02:49
tessier	Might be pe_cua on freenode	Jun 05 02:49
schestowitz	We have another one in IRC	Jun 05 02:49
schestowitz	Or 2	Jun 05 02:49
schestowitz	In #bn	Jun 05 02:50
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DaemonFC	schestowitz: 15:00	Jun 05 02:59
DaemonFC	I find his entire speech to be bizarre and hypocritical	Jun 05 03:00
DaemonFC	but that sentence in particular is ironic	Jun 05 03:00
DaemonFC	about any country that places one group of people over another being destined to fail	Jun 05 03:01
DaemonFC	every country in the world has priviliged supermajorities of some kind or another	Jun 05 03:02
DaemonFC	but the one biggest single group are the Abrahamic religions	Jun 05 03:02
DaemonFC	who by their very nature, subjugate, enslave, intimidate, terrorize, murder, and cajole	Jun 05 03:03
DaemonFC	the only difference is that the US government is officially neutral even if all the people running it are not	Jun 05 03:04
schestowitz	15:00?	Jun 05 03:04
DaemonFC	whereas most Islamic contries rule by religious law	Jun 05 03:05
schestowitz	I refrrence to what exactly?	Jun 05 03:05
schestowitz	Microsoft Embracing, Extending, and Extinguishing Sub-notebooks < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-embracing-extending-netbooks/ >	Jun 05 03:05
DaemonFC	the video	Jun 05 03:05
schestowitz	Which one?	Jun 05 03:05
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY	Jun 05 03:05
schestowitz	Oh	Jun 05 03:05
DaemonFC	in an Islamic country, you may get a show trial before they take you out and hang you not even 24 hours later for "crimes against nature"	Jun 05 03:06
DaemonFC	in the US, by 2003, it was mainly a few states with fines or a couple days in jail who really couldn't enforce those laws because of the fourth amendment	Jun 05 03:07
DaemonFC	and no state interest	Jun 05 03:07
DaemonFC	socially, Islam is still in the 14th century	Jun 05 03:08
DaemonFC	so is Christianity, but the system of checks in our government usually prevent them from twisting the law into a religiously motivated witch hunt	Jun 05 03:09
DaemonFC	schestowitz: It's funny that Obama cherry picked the story about Thomas Jefferson having a Qur'an	Jun 05 03:09
DaemonFC	because Thomas Jefferson was an atheist	Jun 05 03:10
schestowitz	I haven't watched the video	Jun 05 03:10
schestowitz	It's a tad agonising watching Barrack because he seems arrogant	Jun 05 03:10
schestowitz	Communication skills is all a politician needs	Jun 05 03:11
DaemonFC	most of the people that set up our constitution were atheists, freemasons, or at least extremely moderate Christians who had learned from the abuses of the Church of England what state religion does	Jun 05 03:11
schestowitz	The lobbysists fo the rest	Jun 05 03:11
schestowitz	A law degree is common.	Jun 05 03:11
schestowitz	And Obama strikes me as unprofessional	Jun 05 03:11
schestowitz	Really?	Jun 05 03:12
schestowitz	People who founded the US were VERY religious	Jun 05 03:12
DaemonFC	yes, there were no foaming at the mouth Pat Robertson types	Jun 05 03:12
schestowitz	I don't know about the constitution	Jun 05 03:12
schestowitz	I never studies US history	Jun 05 03:12
schestowitz	*died	Jun 05 03:12
DaemonFC	the first amendment in the bill of rights specifically forbids state religion	Jun 05 03:12
schestowitz	Well, Church of England is ironically a lot less influential now than religion in the US	Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFC	"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion"	Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFC	the Establishment Clause	Jun 05 03:13
schestowitz	Why "in God we trust then"?	Jun 05 03:13
schestowitz	And why is it assumed that theism is inherent in a born child?	Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFC	ceremonial diesm, and was not added til 1952	Jun 05 03:13
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 03:13
schestowitz	Some ascribed this to vanity and child abuse	Jun 05 03:13
schestowitz	And to say "I don't BELIEVE in God is foolish too"	Jun 05 03:14
DaemonFC	US money did not have In God We Trust on it until the 1950s	Jun 05 03:14
schestowitz	It's almost to say that an invisible man does exist but you don't BELIEVE in it	Jun 05 03:14
schestowitz	These are al verbal traps	Jun 05 03:14
schestowitz	Like "intelligent design"	Jun 05 03:14
DaemonFC	nor did the Pledge of Allegiance contain "One nation under God" until 1957	Jun 05 03:14
schestowitz	To describe unintelligent theoreticians	Jun 05 03:14
DaemonFC	President Eisenhower signed both of those into law	Jun 05 03:15
DaemonFC	and quipped his satisfaction of the thought of millions of school kids having to recit it	Jun 05 03:15
DaemonFC	*recite	Jun 05 03:15
neighborlee	you know thats growing very old..I 'recited' it everyday,,and it never HARMED my psyche	Jun 05 03:16
DaemonFC	I refused to	Jun 05 03:16
neighborlee	now if your an athiest ,,I guess its your right to be excused ..no harm no foul	Jun 05 03:16
DaemonFC	public school can't have kids recite it anymore	Jun 05 03:16
DaemonFC	but I was in a Catholic school	Jun 05 03:16
DaemonFC	for a while til they threw me out	Jun 05 03:17
neighborlee	thats a waste ..	Jun 05 03:17
DaemonFC	I've never believed in that stuff	Jun 05 03:17
DaemonFC	not even when I was 5 years old	Jun 05 03:17
DaemonFC	oh they hated me	Jun 05 03:17
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 05 03:17
neighborlee	the pledge has great meaning..sweat and blood on the backs of those whom protected our freedoms	Jun 05 03:18
neighborlee	very odd	Jun 05 03:18
DaemonFC	I said it until that line	Jun 05 03:18
neighborlee	I mean at that age	Jun 05 03:18
DaemonFC	I recited the 1896 edition	Jun 05 03:18
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 03:18
neighborlee	do your views mirror that of your parents ?	Jun 05 03:18
DaemonFC	not really, of course it's a funny story behind that	Jun 05 03:19
DaemonFC	long story	Jun 05 03:19
neighborlee	ah :))	Jun 05 03:19
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DaemonFC	my parents were never all that religious	Jun 05 03:19
DaemonFC	they sent me to that school because I was hyperactive and such and they figured that being there would change me or something I guess	Jun 05 03:20
neighborlee	:(	Jun 05 03:20
DaemonFC	they were the "show up to church for Easter and Christmas" type	Jun 05 03:20
DaemonFC	and it was my mom dragging my dad in tow for even that	Jun 05 03:20
DaemonFC	lol	Jun 05 03:20
neighborlee	prob. not uncommon	Jun 05 03:21
neighborlee	my friend is similar	Jun 05 03:21
neighborlee	he's basically an athiest	Jun 05 03:21
DaemonFC	I hated going to church	Jun 05 03:21
neighborlee	at least until his death bed o_0	Jun 05 03:21
DaemonFC	the last time I've even gone was like an Easter service 11 years ago	Jun 05 03:22
ThistleWeb	if that happened to me I'd find an alergy to men in dresses which cause me to have temporary Tourettes when near them	Jun 05 03:22
neighborlee	lol	Jun 05 03:22
neighborlee	contrary to popular belief..church isn't mandatory to believing ;)	Jun 05 03:22
ThistleWeb	no, but gullibility is	Jun 05 03:23
ThistleWeb	;)	Jun 05 03:23
neighborlee	its nice for some.for community..some chruches give aid..its not a overall bad thing..some people can MAKE it bad though	Jun 05 03:23
DaemonFC	my mom, I don't know how to describe her, she's not a real church-goer, but she has a decidedly Protestant tic that flares up now and then	Jun 05 03:23
neighborlee	and also contrary to popular belief..believing in god gives SOME people hope and its unfair to rob them OF that	Jun 05 03:23
DaemonFC	thought it would be a great idea to have them do an exorcism on me at this Pentecostal church	Jun 05 03:23
neighborlee	oh greeeeeeeeat	Jun 05 03:24
neighborlee	not their fault	Jun 05 03:24
neighborlee	your actions spoke volumnes	Jun 05 03:24
neighborlee	I mean come on :))	Jun 05 03:24
neighborlee	not your fault either	Jun 05 03:24
DaemonFC	well, so like after dealing with about every kind of Christian there is I have concluded that they are all full of it, that they are all downright crazy, and the most I can do is respect the ones that leave me alone	Jun 05 03:24
neighborlee	DaemonFC, are you on pills for this ??	Jun 05 03:25
neighborlee	xanac ?	Jun 05 03:25
DaemonFC	Lithium	Jun 05 03:25
neighborlee	kk	Jun 05 03:25
DaemonFC	Zyprexa	Jun 05 03:25
DaemonFC	Prozac	Jun 05 03:25
neighborlee	imagine if you were NOT on pills right now	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	"The first signal of trouble will be a rising interest rate. I have been	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	expecting it for a while now, but the overflow of foreclosed homes, severe	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	unemployment and a general retrenchment by consumers has held inflation in	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	check.	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	When the Chinese decide our tax revenues reach a position where they barely	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	cover the interest on our debt, they will stop buying Treasury bonds and the	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	bubble will break.	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	Then again, consumer confidence may rise, astute buyers may start buying the	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	foreclosures and the trillion dollars Obama has shelled out to stop the	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	bleeding, may very well cure the patient…or somewhat of an in between	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	scenario might come to pass.	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	I am cautiously optimistic.	Jun 05 03:25
schestowitz	"	Jun 05 03:25
neighborlee	bad schestowitz LOL	Jun 05 03:26
DaemonFC	I took myself off the Zyprexa/Prozac after gaining like 20 pounds	Jun 05 03:26
DaemonFC	that stuff makes you overeat and not able to be sexually aroused	Jun 05 03:26
DaemonFC	it's truly nasty shit	Jun 05 03:26
neighborlee	DaemonFC, doctor have you on other things ?	Jun 05 03:26
DaemonFC	a number of them	Jun 05 03:27
neighborlee	DaemonFC, more exercize ?	Jun 05 03:27
neighborlee	good	Jun 05 03:27
DaemonFC	adderall, ritalin, stuff I don't remember what they called it	Jun 05 03:27
DaemonFC	Paxil	Jun 05 03:27
neighborlee	get wiifit LOL	Jun 05 03:27
neighborlee	tons-a-fun ;))	Jun 05 03:27
neighborlee	seriously its major fun :)) ,,I think so anyway	Jun 05 03:27
DaemonFC	then there were these big blue pills, thats another thing I don't recall what it was, it was some off label seizure med	Jun 05 03:27
DaemonFC	it made me hallucinate	Jun 05 03:27
schestowitz	weeeeeeeee feet!	Jun 05 03:27
neighborlee	well anyway ,,it wasn't your..or your parents fault	Jun 05 03:28
DaemonFC	and I ended up on the inpatient unit	Jun 05 03:28
neighborlee	so lay blame aside	Jun 05 03:28
neighborlee	if there is any-	Jun 05 03:28
neighborlee	schestowitz, ha	Jun 05 03:28
DaemonFC	what does a foot fetish have to do with a japanese video game console?	Jun 05 03:29
neighborlee	lol	Jun 05 03:29
ThistleWeb	Wii Fit	Jun 05 03:29
ThistleWeb	or weee feet, depending on your accent	Jun 05 03:29
DaemonFC	I did end up quitting smoking though	Jun 05 03:31
DaemonFC	they keep upping the tax on those damned things	Jun 05 03:31
ThistleWeb	DaemonFC, congrats, I did that about 18mths ago myself	Jun 05 03:31
DaemonFC	I thought $4 a pack was bad, my cousin from New Jersey brought an empty suitcase with him to Indiana	Jun 05 03:31
DaemonFC	and fileld it up	Jun 05 03:31
DaemonFC	they're over $8 a pack there	Jun 05 03:31
DaemonFC	*filled	Jun 05 03:31
schestowitz	ATMs That Run Windows Fall Into Hands of Crackers < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/atm-windows-xp-problem/ >	Jun 05 03:32
DaemonFC	please don't be Wells Fargo	Jun 05 03:32
DaemonFC	ugggh	Jun 05 03:32
ThistleWeb	is there an easy way to tell which banks use Windows ATMs? or is that all NDA stuff	Jun 05 03:33
DaemonFC	I'm calling their customer care line now	Jun 05 03:33
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Feel like posting a video?	Jun 05 03:34
DaemonFC	depending on what they say of course	Jun 05 03:34
ThistleWeb	I've never seen any sign of an underlying OS at any ATM but that could just be coincidence of the times I walk past one, or use one	Jun 05 03:37
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I did get Wells Fargo to fix their online banking system	Jun 05 03:37
DaemonFC	It was giving a "Update your browser" screen to anyone using Opera	Jun 05 03:37
DaemonFC	ThistleWeb: It's easy to use XP as a kiosk	Jun 05 03:38
DaemonFC	without anyone knowing what it is	Jun 05 03:38
ThistleWeb	I've seen jobcentre kiosks uisng windows 2000 I think	Jun 05 03:38
DaemonFC	XP Embedded is extremely modular	Jun 05 03:38
ThistleWeb	not noticable until it crashes	Jun 05 03:39
DaemonFC	you can fit it on a 512 meg flash drive	Jun 05 03:39
DaemonFC	and still have it be good enough to run a kiosk	Jun 05 03:39
ThistleWeb	windows on something which needs to be secure IS a worry	Jun 05 03:39
DaemonFC	ideally you'd remove Internet Explorer, DirectX, Windows Media Player, the administrative tools, etc.	Jun 05 03:39
DaemonFC	if you strip down XP Embedded then most of the things that typically have security problems aren't there	Jun 05 03:40
ThistleWeb	I guess	Jun 05 03:40
DaemonFC	actually, I've played around with it quite a bit	Jun 05 03:40
DaemonFC	if you trim it down to run a kiosk, then only about 6% of the security updates for XP apply	Jun 05 03:41
DaemonFC	the rest of the components just aren't there	Jun 05 03:41
ThistleWeb	I never tried any embedded OS so I'm picturing normal XP modified here, which is obviously wrong	Jun 05 03:42
DaemonFC	hardly bulletproof, but much more malware-resistant than a typical XP installation	Jun 05 03:42
DaemonFC	of course a lot of companies that sell XP Embedded don't set it up right	Jun 05 03:42
DaemonFC	and IE and it's engine and all that are still there	Jun 05 03:42
DaemonFC	which of course is a bad idea	Jun 05 03:42
ThistleWeb	if they set it up right, they lose money from the premium support line	Jun 05 03:42
DaemonFC	XP itself is not really all that bad, it's the extra components that are mandatory in a normal version of XP	Jun 05 03:43
DaemonFC	IE and Windows Media Player make up more than 90% of XP's security problems	Jun 05 03:44
ThistleWeb	I know IE is bad	Jun 05 03:44
ThistleWeb	along with Office	Jun 05 03:44
ThistleWeb	for critical vulnerablities	Jun 05 03:44
DaemonFC	Office is bad because of macros and IE integration	Jun 05 03:45
DaemonFC	and now it integrates with .Net	Jun 05 03:45
ThistleWeb	judging by the update descriptions	Jun 05 03:45
DaemonFC	and a lot of other things it has no business poking around in	Jun 05 03:45
ThistleWeb	yep, turning off macros and active x is a key	Jun 05 03:45
DaemonFC	StarOffice has a convertor utility that OOo does not	Jun 05 03:46
DaemonFC	it lets you convert MS Office macros into StarBasic	Jun 05 03:46
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 03:46
ThistleWeb	really?	Jun 05 03:46
DaemonFC	yep	Jun 05 03:46
DaemonFC	and back again	Jun 05 03:46
ThistleWeb	damn I was looking for that about a year ago	Jun 05 03:46
ThistleWeb	to get a local charity to switch away from MS Office	Jun 05 03:46
DaemonFC	StarOffice can be a worthy upgrade if you need advanced features	Jun 05 03:47
ThistleWeb	they had 5 .doc template letters with macros they needed	Jun 05 03:47
DaemonFC	they license it for $40 and it's per individual	Jun 05 03:47
DaemonFC	not per machine	Jun 05 03:47
DaemonFC	so I can install it for my own use on unlimited systems	Jun 05 03:47
ThistleWeb	a single convert and save would work	Jun 05 03:47
schestowitz	Daylight is coming now. Time to get some sleep	Jun 05 03:47
ThistleWeb	then they run the converted odf as template	Jun 05 03:47
DaemonFC	StarOffice also works with the Novell OOXML plugin if you need it to	Jun 05 03:48
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 05 03:48
DaemonFC	I do cause it's that or use MS Office	Jun 05 03:48
ThistleWeb	does open office allow macros?	Jun 05 03:48
DaemonFC	Iyes	Jun 05 03:49
DaemonFC	it's StarBasic	Jun 05 03:49
DaemonFC	they call it OpenOffice.org Basic	Jun 05 03:49
DaemonFC	but same thing	Jun 05 03:49
ThistleWeb	I have no idea how to write macros, so I looked for a converter	Jun 05 03:49
DaemonFC	looks like OOo 3 can use some Excel macros	Jun 05 03:50
DaemonFC	but for security reasons it's disabled by default	Jun 05 03:50
DaemonFC	looks like they're trying to get it to where you can run unmodified MS Office macros	Jun 05 03:51
DaemonFC	turning it off is a good idea	Jun 05 03:51
DaemonFC	let the user pull that switch	Jun 05 03:51
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 05 03:51
ThistleWeb	lol	Jun 05 03:51
ThistleWeb	gotta love the contrasting approaches to interoperability between OOo and Microsoft. OOo gradually implements more MS features and strives to get them working, while MS intentionally fail on odf support	Jun 05 03:53
DaemonFC	OOo needs to be compatible with MS Office more than MS Office needs to be compatible with OOo	Jun 05 04:12
DaemonFC	it's jsut like how web browsers have Quirks Mode where they can emulate some Internet Explorer oddities	Jun 05 04:12
ThistleWeb	true although you'd think Microsoft wouldn't want to push the EU too much	Jun 05 04:20
ThistleWeb	on the other hand, they are used to getting their own way	Jun 05 04:21
DaemonFC	Microsoft is compatible with ODF the same whay that Windows is compatible with POSIX	Jun 05 04:23
DaemonFC	they implement just enough of it to be in compliance with what they government said they have to	Jun 05 04:23
DaemonFC	Win32 and Win64 are not the real NT API, just what Windows apps see	Jun 05 04:24
DaemonFC	Microsoft could easily make Windows into a fully UNIX-compliant system by implementing another API personality	Jun 05 04:24
DaemonFC	they have no reason to but it could be done without redoing the whole operating system	Jun 05 04:25
ThistleWeb	they do seem to go to great lengths to ensure vendor lock in, so they do have knowledgable peeps, it's a pity it's being channeled in negative directions	Jun 05 04:25
DaemonFC	most of the native API is undocumented and most of what's known about it has been obtained through reverse engineering	Jun 05 04:25
DaemonFC	like ReactOS and Wine	Jun 05 04:25
DaemonFC	Windows has every feature you would expect in a modern operating system, and it's all clearly UNIX-inspired	Jun 05 04:26
DaemonFC	but yes, intentionally incompatible	Jun 05 04:26
DaemonFC	Microsoft does distribute GPL-licensed software in Subsystem for UNIX Applications	Jun 05 04:27
DaemonFC	they have GCC and a few hundred other GNU utilities	Jun 05 04:27
DaemonFC	to implement a UNIX environment on top of Windows NT	Jun 05 04:28
DaemonFC	oddly enough they don't use BASH for their shell	Jun 05 04:28
DaemonFC	they use KSH (Korn Shell	Jun 05 04:28
ThistleWeb	I hardly use the terminal so I don't care what it uses, bash seems fine to me	Jun 05 04:29
ThistleWeb	I guess it matters if you use it a lot	Jun 05 04:30
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DaemonFC	I use TCSH	Jun 05 04:31
DaemonFC	but use DASH as /bin/sh	Jun 05 04:31
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DaemonFC	http://www.avg-watch.org/	Jun 05 04:40
DaemonFC	the real reason for why there appears to be so many IE 6 users	Jun 05 04:41
DaemonFC	AVG Linkscanner IDs as IE 6 on XP	Jun 05 04:41
ThistleWeb	I heard something somehwere about changing your browser ID to google's spider and it gets passed many sites' blocks	Jun 05 04:42
ThistleWeb	because people want google to index it	Jun 05 04:43
ThistleWeb	cant remember where I heard it, or what the context was	Jun 05 04:43
ThistleWeb	I think it was for sites requiring free registration for some content	Jun 05 04:44
DaemonFC	yeah	Jun 05 04:44
DaemonFC	free porn	Jun 05 04:44
DaemonFC	wooohooo	Jun 05 04:44
ThistleWeb	dunno if it works or not	Jun 05 04:44
ThistleWeb	I know the BBC had a loophole for the iPlayer where it let you download if it saw you as an iPhone	Jun 05 04:45
ThistleWeb	rather than just stream it	Jun 05 04:45
ThistleWeb	they fixed that within a few days and described people using a browser agent switcher as "hacking"	Jun 05 04:45
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mib_dya64o	is OpenOffice.org fully ODF compliant ?	Jun 05 06:40
DaemonFC	lots of Bing commercials on TV	Jun 05 07:02
DaemonFC	China is censoring the term June 4th	Jun 05 07:34
DaemonFC	from appearing anywhere on the internet as viewed in China	Jun 05 07:34
neonfloor	anyone mind helping me with some shell scripting?	Jun 05 07:37
DaemonFC	WordPerfect supports ODF well	Jun 05 07:42
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mib_dya64o	is SUN's OpenOffice.org fully compliant with SUN's ODF format ? Yes or no.	Jun 05 07:52
Omar87	Hello everyone.	Jun 05 07:52
Omar87	Is there anything wrong with FSDaily?	Jun 05 07:52
Omar87	Because it doesn't work with me.	Jun 05 07:53
Omar87	Could it have been attacked or is it just me?	Jun 05 07:53
DaemonFC	it's down	Jun 05 07:54
Omar87	DaemonFC: Really? What's the problem?	Jun 05 07:55
DaemonFC	no idea	Jun 05 07:55
Omar87	Hmm.. Well I hope it comes back up soon, then.. -_-	Jun 05 07:55
DaemonFC	someone needs to send Rush Limbaugh a cigar box full of Oxycontin and let the problem sort itself out	Jun 05 08:12
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ushimitsudoki	howdy	Jun 05 08:39
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Omar87	Who's Rush Limbaugh?	Jun 05 08:53
DaemonFC	a big fat idiot	Jun 05 08:54
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 08:54
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ushimitsudoki	Omar87: American Right-Wing radio talkshow host	Jun 05 09:03
schestowitz	Hmmmmm.....	Jun 05 09:04
schestowitz	-rw-rw-r-- 1 boycottn boycottn 239679101 May 27 14:53 wordpressdatabase-27052009.dump	Jun 05 09:04
schestowitz	-rw-rw-r-- 1 boycottn boycottn 229637689 May 28 00:45 wordpressdatabase-28052009.dump	Jun 05 09:04
schestowitz	Any reason why a DB can get smaller overnight?	Jun 05 09:04
schestowitz	Maybe cache? Change of mysql version?	Jun 05 09:05
schestowitz	It shrank by 10 MB overnight	Jun 05 09:05
schestowitz	Omar87: yes, FSDaily and FSMagzine has been down for days	Jun 05 09:06
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MinceR	hay	Jun 05 09:10
DaemonFC	hmmm, WordPerfect Office SP1	Jun 05 09:11
DaemonFC	heh, just popped up and offered to install	Jun 05 09:11
schestowitz	mib_dya64o: are you an expert with mysql?	Jun 05 09:11
schestowitz	Here's the thing	Jun 05 09:13
schestowitz	26th: 227mb	Jun 05 09:13
schestowitz	27th: 239mb	Jun 05 09:13
schestowitz	28th: 229mb	Jun 05 09:13
schestowitz	Question is, why did it inflate itself that day so suddenly. Can mysql keep some metadata or something nefarious?	Jun 05 09:14
ushimitsudoki	schestowitz: if the dumps are from mysqldump they will be flat text files and can be viewed (and diffed) in the normal text editors	Jun 05 09:23
ushimitsudoki	if the dumps are from some other proggy they might be compressed or something.	Jun 05 09:24
ushimitsudoki	so the first thing to determine is what is generating the dumps	Jun 05 09:24
schestowitz	ushimitsudoki: just a standard mysqldump	Jun 05 09:25
schestowitz	Given the size, I wonder if two dbs were dumped into one in this case	Jun 05 09:26
schestowitz	As in, both the wiki and wordpress	Jun 05 09:26
schestowitz	Because the size would fit perfectly.	Jun 05 09:26
schestowitz	I am just being in 'paranoid mode' here	Jun 05 09:26
schestowitz	But later I find it was just a one-day anomaly, so..	Jun 05 09:26
DaemonFC	schestowitz: WordPerfect Office was going to be on Linux	Jun 05 09:36
DaemonFC	til Microsoft made it worth their while to not port it	Jun 05 09:37
DaemonFC	it does run fine under Wine though	Jun 05 09:37
schestowitz	The Corel deal	Jun 05 09:39
DaemonFC	mmhm	Jun 05 09:39
schestowitz	Good news!	Jun 05 09:41
schestowitz	The EU commision finally gave me the docs I demanded	Jun 05 09:41
schestowitz	I was going to file a complaint against them	Jun 05 09:41
DaemonFC	schestowitz: http://docx-converter.com/	Jun 05 09:41
schestowitz	European Commission was going to be Reported to ombudsman for Not Obeying Transparency Rules	Jun 05 09:42
schestowitz	This was the plan:	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	I could complain at the ombudsman against Lars Hindkjær Pedersen and the European Commission, DG InfoSoc, here is the form:	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/showResource?resourceId=1235463789310_form_en.pdf&type=pdf&download=true&lang=en	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	I was just about to send it to The European Ombudsman — 1 Avenue du Président Robert Schuman — B.P. 403 — FR- 67001 Strasbourg Cedex — France	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	3: Misconduct and delay: public access request concerning documents about the European Software Strategy (ESS) under Lars Hindkjær Pedersen and several colleagues at the European Commission, DG Infosoc	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	4. Breach of Article 255 TEC	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- improper conduct and delay of the Commission in its application of	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	directive EC/1049/2001 concerning repeated and confirmatory request for	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	document access	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- alleged difficulty to find documents which relate to the ESS. The	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	Commission confirmed a provided non-exhaustive list helped to find some	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	of the documents but repeated the call for clarifications ad nauseam.	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- The request and communication was directed to the department in charge	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	with the European Software Strategy (ESS) who are in possession of	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	relevant documents.	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- deadlines under the legal base have expired without grant of any	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	access to the requested documents or an official decision.	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	5.	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- grant access and help to identify the documents, cmp. Article 15	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	EC/1049/2001	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- examine all documents in their possession concerning the ESS process.	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	- meet the legal requirements under Article 15 EC/1049/2001	Jun 05 09:43
schestowitz	==	Jun 05 09:44
schestowitz	But they sent it to me at the 90th minutes	Jun 05 09:44
schestowitz	*minute	Jun 05 09:44
schestowitz	Past the deadline	Jun 05 09:44
schestowitz	But there is no need to register a formal complaint anymore	Jun 05 09:44
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schestowitz	Microsoft Copies Wikipedia and Links to a GNU Licence < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-copies-wikipedia/ >	Jun 05 09:50
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MinceR	so nothing is unholy to m$ now? :>	Jun 05 10:05
schestowitz	https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/transparency/regrin/consultation/search.do#searchResult	Jun 05 10:09
schestowitz	No matched for Zuck. He's an undercover... AstroTurf dude... just registering sites via domainbyproxy.com	Jun 05 10:09
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tessier	http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/linux_driver_project_status-2009-06.html	Jun 05 10:13
tessier	Novell isn't doing all bad it seems...	Jun 05 10:13
tessier	So many companies are so schizophrenic it's bizarre...	Jun 05 10:13
oiaohm	Remember Greg K-H was a SUSE staffer.	Jun 05 10:18
oiaohm	There are quite a few distributions who would love to grab him.	Jun 05 10:18
oiaohm	Novell is limited on how much they can interfer with him.	Jun 05 10:19
MinceR	yet he happily spreads FUD.	Jun 05 10:21
oiaohm	Compared to mono lead he don't spreed much MinceR.	Jun 05 10:22
MinceR	yes, and compared to politicians, he often tells the truth	Jun 05 10:22
MinceR	it isn't saying much.	Jun 05 10:22
oiaohm	All main developers for all the closed source distributions spreed some fud to sell distribution they are connected to MinceR.	Jun 05 10:23
MinceR	well apparently the others didn't get so much exposure about it	Jun 05 10:24
oiaohm	There are the ones who do Fud. Then here is ones that do all out lies.	Jun 05 10:24
MinceR	they probably spread a lot less FUD	Jun 05 10:24
schestowitz	Fedora Leaves Mono Out, OpenSUSE Has Second Thoughts, and So Should Ubuntu < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/mono-monologue/ >	Jun 05 10:25
schestowitz	tessier: indeed	Jun 05 10:25
schestowitz	Greg is doing great work	Jun 05 10:25
schestowitz	Sometimes it's a PR thing	Jun 05 10:25
schestowitz	Like Intel hiring Cox	Jun 05 10:25
schestowitz	Or Linspire putting ESR on its board	Jun 05 10:25
schestowitz	They buy icons to be used as some sort of defense mascots	Jun 05 10:25
oiaohm	Most of Gregs fud about mono is funny. Its like lets just skip over that topic is not the department I work in. Now anyone who knows Greg he don't skip things normally.	Jun 05 10:27
tessier	schestowitz: It looks like you have a cron job to dump the db on the server and it isn't working properly.	Jun 05 10:27
tessier	schestowitz: It is trying to deliver the errors from the cron job to boycottn@boycottnovell.com but that doesn't work because we have disabled the receiving of all local mail. Maybe I should set it up to accept its own local mails to the boycottn user account but not accept any mail from the network?	Jun 05 10:28
ushimitsudoki	I love this (from Miguel's latest blog): "On Windows for example, MonoDevelop runs on top of the .NET Framework and uses the .NET managed debugger instead of using Mono's runtime and Mono's debugger, so there is no dependency on Mono to be installed on the system."	Jun 05 10:28
ushimitsudoki	So basically you've got a Windows .NET application that doesn't even use mono. Hooray. This is truly a blessing for Linux users everywhere.	Jun 05 10:28
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oiaohm	Yep and MonoDevelop is still secound rate to visual studio on windows.	Jun 05 10:30
MinceR	taking into account what my colleague said about vs, that would be pretty bad then :>	Jun 05 10:31
ushimitsudoki	Exactly. If I was a windows developer, why the hell would I be using this second rate shit anyway? What serious windows developer isn't running visual studio? and what wanna-be isn't running VS Express?	Jun 05 10:31
ushimitsudoki	I've never understood that whole "bringing Windows developers over to LInux" line of argument	Jun 05 10:31
oiaohm	VS Express with the right alterations is the same program as Full VS.	Jun 05 10:31
ushimitsudoki	Is there a group out there that cares LESS about linux what Windows developers?	Jun 05 10:32
ushimitsudoki	s/what/than/	Jun 05 10:32
MinceR	yes, macos developers	Jun 05 10:32
ushimitsudoki	heh	Jun 05 10:32
oiaohm	My problem is .net programmers are more like the VB programmers of old.	Jun 05 10:32
oiaohm	Most of what they produce is crap.	Jun 05 10:32
oiaohm	The create a few gems from time to time. But to make them useable you need to port them to a better language.	Jun 05 10:33
oiaohm	I really don't see the interest in them. We would be better off getting the windows codes hooked in python.	Jun 05 10:34
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schestowitz	Can you guys access the site (BN)?	Jun 05 10:37
MinceR	i couldn't the last time, retrying	Jun 05 10:37
_Hicham_	good morning Sir schestowitz	Jun 05 10:37
schestowitz	tessier: oh, yeah...	Jun 05 10:37
schestowitz	I don't know why the cron didn't work, either	Jun 05 10:37
tessier	You doing something with the site?	Jun 05 10:38
schestowitz	Nope	Jun 05 10:38
tessier	I can't seem to access it from here. I can ssh in though. And I see weird stuff in the logs:	Jun 05 10:38
ushimitsudoki	no BN for me - it was up earlier	Jun 05 10:38
tessier	216.137.5.141 - - [05/Jun/2009:02:48:59 -0700] "GET /2009/03/03/ HTTP/1.1" 200 24576 "http://guruofseo.tripod.com/seoelitehvy.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)"	Jun 05 10:38
tessier	216.137.5.141 - - [05/Jun/2009:02:49:00 -0700] "GET /2009/03/03/new-arm-linux-gadget/ HTTP/1.1" 200 154194 "http://incomeonline.100webspace.net/hits4payhvy.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)"	Jun 05 10:38
schestowitz	Hmmmmm......	Jun 05 10:39
schestowitz	It worked about 5 minutes ago	Jun 05 10:39
schestowitz	I didn't change anything	Jun 05 10:39
tessier	I just restarted httpd. Now traffic is moving again.	Jun 05 10:39
tessier	That same referrer kept appearing in the logs over and over again.	Jun 05 10:39
MinceR	yup, works now	Jun 05 10:39
schestowitz	Thanks!	Jun 05 10:40
schestowitz	:-)	Jun 05 10:40
*schestowitz Wonders what happened there....		Jun 05 10:40
fewa	back up	Jun 05 10:40
schestowitz	We've just exposed a list of MS lobbyists in Europe	Jun 05 10:40
schestowitz	Huge list!	Jun 05 10:40
_Hicham_	I can access BN schestowitz	Jun 05 10:40
schestowitz	It's a list to be put on display	Jun 05 10:41
schestowitz	The EU hides it behind Web form, so it's public material, but not easy to access	Jun 05 10:41
fewa	The Bahamas Telecommunications Company, Ltd.	Jun 05 10:41
fewa	hmmmmm	Jun 05 10:41
schestowitz	Same for Presto Ellis/Gates lobbyists	Jun 05 10:41
fewa	DDoS from the bahamas	Jun 05 10:41
_Hicham_	Morocco loves BN	Jun 05 10:41
_Hicham_	and loves schestowitz too	Jun 05 10:42
schestowitz	Just don't buy me flowers.. LOL	Jun 05 10:42
_Hicham_	I am gonna buy you some proprietary software	Jun 05 10:43
_Hicham_	as a gift	Jun 05 10:43
_Hicham_	vive schestowitz!	Jun 05 10:44
oiaohm	You could buy him Linux foundation member ship and get a email address on Linux.com. Most likely even more useless.	Jun 05 10:44
_Hicham_	howdy oiaohm?	Jun 05 10:48
oiaohm	Hi _Hicham_	Jun 05 10:48
oiaohm	If someone giving me propretary software it betting run under Linux.	Jun 05 10:48
schestowitz	oiaohm is the good cop here	Jun 05 10:48
schestowitz	DaemonFC is the daemonic one	Jun 05 10:48
schestowitz	Spreading Linux FUD	Jun 05 10:49
schestowitz	Mercilessly	Jun 05 10:49
schestowitz	And peddling non-Free s/w...	Jun 05 10:49
oiaohm	I get in trouble from twitter for not being pro open source all the time.	Jun 05 10:49
_Hicham_	DaemonFC is a great dev	Jun 05 10:49
_Hicham_	he is gonna implement a lot of things in Linux	Jun 05 10:49
_Hicham_	port existing games to GLX	Jun 05 10:49
_Hicham_	and so on	Jun 05 10:49
_Hicham_	so no worries	Jun 05 10:50
_Hicham_	he is working hard	Jun 05 10:50
oiaohm	I am more a system admin.	Jun 05 10:50
_Hicham_	oiaohm is gonna make link time optimization happen in gcc	Jun 05 10:50
oiaohm	So I am kinda mixed in my for open source and against it. I have to have stuff work.	Jun 05 10:50
oiaohm	If gcc does not get there llvm will.	Jun 05 10:50
_Hicham_	oiaohm : can't we work without proprietary software?	Jun 05 10:50
oiaohm	Either way I don't care.	Jun 05 10:51
_Hicham_	llvm doesn't support it yet?	Jun 05 10:51
oiaohm	llvm cannot build all gcc source codes yet.	Jun 05 10:51
oiaohm	So there are still stacks of applications out there it cannot build.	Jun 05 10:51
oiaohm	_Hicham_: there are some areas where I just cannot change users at this stage. All alterations I do must leave businesses highly productive.	Jun 05 10:52
oiaohm	Particular areas like POS's and forms of data entry I have already mostly converted to open source.	Jun 05 10:53
_Hicham_	wine can't still do the job of transition?	Jun 05 10:53
oiaohm	Big bug bear is laptops and the like. When you need profile auto syncing back to server when connected. There is no nice way to just pick up a Linux laptop and just have it join even to a Linux server for that kind of operation.	Jun 05 10:54
oiaohm	Most are network intergration things that since Linux major job has been servers have not be coded up.	Jun 05 10:55
oiaohm	its not like you plan to disconnect servers at lot from networks like you do with laptops.	Jun 05 10:56
_Hicham_	I know it is hard	Jun 05 10:57
oiaohm	Basically if I could show businesses that Linux has a standard system for that I could change a lot more of there machines over.	Jun 05 10:57
oiaohm	More often than not its the bosses with the laptops.	Jun 05 10:57
schestowitz	MinceR: what was that blog with funny company logos?	Jun 05 10:58
schestowitz	Like GM fail?	Jun 05 10:58
mib_dya64o	like "wang cares !"	Jun 05 10:58
oiaohm	Twitter tries selling the the line. Linux is perfect for everywhere. _Hicham_ I bet you can see how that would go south to a person like me living in the real world of IT.	Jun 05 10:59
schestowitz	There's a set of funny warped logos	Jun 05 10:59
schestowitz	Hi, mib_dya64o	Jun 05 10:59
oiaohm	Then calls me anti-linux when I start pointing out the problems.	Jun 05 10:59
mib_dya64o	Hi Mr Schostowitz	Jun 05 11:00
mib_dya64o	sorry schestowitz	Jun 05 11:00
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oiaohm	Hi mib_dya64o	Jun 05 11:04
_Hicham_	u are called anti-linux by linux enthusiasts	Jun 05 11:05
_Hicham_	Linux enthusiasts who are still newbies	Jun 05 11:06
_Hicham_	who don't wanna hear about Linux problems	Jun 05 11:06
oiaohm	And I get called anti-windows by windows fans.	Jun 05 11:06
schestowitz	Microsoft May be Following GM’s Road Map < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-road-map/ >	Jun 05 11:07
schestowitz	I twisted the headline there:-)	Jun 05 11:07
oiaohm	About the only one I don't get called anti from is mac and that is mostly because I don't talk about them because they are too expensive.	Jun 05 11:07
oiaohm	I just one of these people who just expects that I will get fried by someone.	Jun 05 11:07
_Hicham_	but you are always welcome in BN	Jun 05 11:10
_Hicham_	u can't find better than schestowitz' home	Jun 05 11:10
mib_dya64o	It depends on your motive, if you are critical because you want to see the product improved thats fine :)	Jun 05 11:10
_Hicham_	everyone want to see products improved	Jun 05 11:11
oiaohm	I want the OS I can breach out of my network mib_dya64o	Jun 05 11:12
oiaohm	I am not the most skilled system cracker in the world. But windows is just a walk in the park.	Jun 05 11:12
_Hicham_	cracking Windows pays a lot	Jun 05 11:13
oiaohm	I know I could have made billions form it.	Jun 05 11:13
oiaohm	But I respect other people too much todo that.	Jun 05 11:13
oiaohm	Not running servers as main user on the system data back to early rule of OS design.	Jun 05 11:14
oiaohm	UAC is more a trojan than anything else. My system is secure because I am running UAC. So people get careless.	Jun 05 11:15
mib_dya64o	how is it a trojan ?	Jun 05 11:16
oiaohm	It interfers with you work for no real gain.	Jun 05 11:16
oiaohm	Even application coders even bipass it.	Jun 05 11:17
oiaohm	Need to do a operation that would trip UAC. No problem load a service.	Jun 05 11:17
oiaohm	UAC don't monitor that.	Jun 05 11:17
_Hicham_	great oiaohm	Jun 05 11:17
_Hicham_	that is how an OS would be	Jun 05 11:17
_Hicham_	u can bypass any restriction	Jun 05 11:18
oiaohm	If UAC really worked that would not work.	Jun 05 11:18
oiaohm	So its a trojan horse. Makes you feel secure when you are a sitting duck.	Jun 05 11:18
_Hicham_	I don't agree to spread secure OSes	Jun 05 11:19
oiaohm	Windows also has another design flaw.	Jun 05 11:19
_Hicham_	secure OSes are useless	Jun 05 11:19
oiaohm	I am a program I perform an action I don't have permission todo. Under windows you get illegal operation. Under Linux terminated without notice.	Jun 05 11:20
oiaohm	What way is the more secure method.	Jun 05 11:20
oiaohm	Yep no probing under Linux unless you want to end up a dead process fast.	Jun 05 11:21
_Hicham_	under a console, you would see a message	Jun 05 11:21
mib_dya64o	they both accomplish the same goal, or result. the shutting down of the offending code	Jun 05 11:21
oiaohm	No they don't.	Jun 05 11:21
oiaohm	If a program will not be killed.	Jun 05 11:21
oiaohm	It can probe until it locates a exploitable flaw mib_dya64o	Jun 05 11:21
mib_dya64o	If a program performs an illegal operation it is closed down	Jun 05 11:21
oiaohm	Application can catch the illegal operation.	Jun 05 11:22
oiaohm	With windows SEH.	Jun 05 11:22
oiaohm	So application remains running mib_dya64o	Jun 05 11:22
_Hicham_	it is just a coding problem	Jun 05 11:22
oiaohm	OS core of Linux killed the application.	Jun 05 11:22
_Hicham_	and I think you are talking about exception handling	Jun 05 11:23
oiaohm	If you do a action against permissions set in a Linux LSM exception handling will not catch it.	Jun 05 11:23
oiaohm	Program is just dead. That simple.	Jun 05 11:23
mib_dya64o	if code throws and exception, good code will trap it and deal with it in an appropriate manner.	Jun 05 11:23
oiaohm	To a point.	Jun 05 11:23
mib_dya64o	Which may be more involved than just shutting down the app	Jun 05 11:23
_Hicham_	not with SELinux	Jun 05 11:24
oiaohm	Lets say applicaiton is asking to access core of system.	Jun 05 11:24
_Hicham_	did u use SELinux?	Jun 05 11:24
oiaohm	I use SELinux. SELinux can be set not to give notice before termination.	Jun 05 11:24
_Hicham_	ah	Jun 05 11:24
_Hicham_	so now u admit it	Jun 05 11:24
_Hicham_	it is a choice	Jun 05 11:25
oiaohm	So can smack by the way.	Jun 05 11:25
_Hicham_	rather than a flow	Jun 05 11:25
_Hicham_	flaw	Jun 05 11:25
_Hicham_	the choices are there	Jun 05 11:25
oiaohm	running secure systems you will be running Selinux or smack.	Jun 05 11:25
_Hicham_	either SELinux or AppArmor	Jun 05 11:25
oiaohm	never apparmor.	Jun 05 11:25
oiaohm	Its flawed.	Jun 05 11:25
oiaohm	You can walk straight past every protection apparmor puts up.	Jun 05 11:26
_Hicham_	Ubuntu uses AppArmor	Jun 05 11:26
_Hicham_	like Novell distros	Jun 05 11:26
oiaohm	Yep complete idiots.	Jun 05 11:26
oiaohm	Novell has switched to selinux by the way.	Jun 05 11:26
_Hicham_	SELinux is mature	Jun 05 11:26
_Hicham_	it has been present in early version of Fedora	Jun 05 11:26
oiaohm	Selinux and smack are both mainline kernel secuirty modules.	Jun 05 11:26
oiaohm	So fairly well audited.	Jun 05 11:26
oiaohm	apparmor failed 5 attempts due to technical reason to be included.	Jun 05 11:27
oiaohm	And almost none of those problems have been fixed.	Jun 05 11:27
_Hicham_	Novell isn't an expert in security	Jun 05 11:29
_Hicham_	but they do great job	Jun 05 11:30
_Hicham_	they contribute a lot to kernel	Jun 05 11:30
oiaohm	If you want something lighter than selinux and smack that is path based the one to use is TOMOYO Linux	Jun 05 11:30
_Hicham_	they have made evolution	Jun 05 11:30
_Hicham_	I won't use non audited techs	Jun 05 11:31
oiaohm	TOMOYO is audited.	Jun 05 11:31
_Hicham_	Novell also contributed to Network Manager	Jun 05 11:31
oiaohm	And will be in 2.6.30	Jun 05 11:31
_Hicham_	great	Jun 05 11:31
_Hicham_	is it a Japanese tech?	Jun 05 11:31
oiaohm	Yep.	Jun 05 11:31
oiaohm	Only recently started being tranlsated to english.	Jun 05 11:32
_Hicham_	great	Jun 05 11:32
oiaohm	Document currently make it a little fun at moment.	Jun 05 11:32
oiaohm	But by end of year it should be good.	Jun 05 11:32
_Hicham_	SELinux is mature	Jun 05 11:33
_Hicham_	but it still have problems with ext4 filesystem	Jun 05 11:33
_Hicham_	does TOMOYO support ext4 filesystem?	Jun 05 11:33
oiaohm	TOMOYO is path based like apparmor but it works. So it not effected by filesystem at all.	Jun 05 11:35
_Hicham_	great	Jun 05 11:35
schestowitz	Details of Microsoft’s Lobbying in Europe http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-lobby-in-europe/	Jun 05 11:38
oiaohm	http://tomoyo.sourceforge.jp/wiki-e/?WhatIs#comparison << _Hicham_	Jun 05 11:38
oiaohm	TOMOYO also includes a learning mode that apparmor does not.	Jun 05 11:39
_Hicham_	I never trust novell techs	Jun 05 11:39
oiaohm	Its still a young secuirty mod. So it got a lot todo be for it can beat selinux.	Jun 05 11:39
oiaohm	At least it should provide a user friendly basic level.	Jun 05 11:40
schestowitz	Does anyone have tools for turning PDF to HTML? trmanco maybe?	Jun 05 11:40
oiaohm	Openoffice + pdf import works on some schestowitz	Jun 05 11:42
mib_dya64o	online pdf to htmll conversion www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html	Jun 05 11:42
oiaohm	If its my pdf I do have the odt schestowitz.	Jun 05 11:43
_Hicham_	schestowitz : do u want an automated script?	Jun 05 11:43
schestowitz	oiaohm: it needs JRE	Jun 05 11:46
schestowitz	I could never get it to work	Jun 05 11:47
schestowitz	trmanco has some scripts	Jun 05 11:47
schestowitz	mib_dya64o: thanks!	Jun 05 11:47
oiaohm	Yep 1.6 real sun java or it don't work.	Jun 05 11:48
MinceR	schestowitz: i can't find the crisis-themed logos	Jun 05 11:57
_Hicham_	schestowitz : it works for me with OpenJDK	Jun 05 12:00
_Hicham_	I just retested a pdf	Jun 05 12:02
schestowitz	mib_dya64o: thanks, it's working well	Jun 05 12:06
mib_dya64o	good to hear, no problems :)	Jun 05 12:07
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schestowitz	It'll all be up soon. Loads ofg stuff	Jun 05 12:13
schestowitz	*of	Jun 05 12:13
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oiaohm	http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/June09/SynthSounds.ws.html sometimes you just have to step back and go wow.	Jun 05 12:16
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oiaohm	That reminds me. I have see if I can add a geoip script to konversation I miss that from where I was using Chatzilla.	Jun 05 12:31
oiaohm	http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/ftc-forces-hive-of-scum-and-villainy-isp-offline.ars That explains why some bot nets stopped.	Jun 05 12:33
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schestowitz	After 3 Months, Europe Lets Microsoft-Influenced EU Panel be Seen < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-corrupted-eu-panel/ >	Jun 05 12:42
ushimitsudoki	Check out Hugo Lueders on the Open Source Software group. Here he remarking that open source recommendations are "unnecessary": http://www.euractiv.com/en/infosociety/open-source-software-recommendations-unnecessary-hugo-lueders-director-initiative-software-choice/article-161090	Jun 05 13:07
ushimitsudoki	His appendix in the working group is that same flavor of BS	Jun 05 13:07
schestowitz	He is anti-FOSS	Jun 05 13:08
schestowitz	Hugo Lueders that is	Jun 05 13:09
schestowitz	Notorious	Jun 05 13:09
schestowitz	Crap	Jun 05 13:09
schestowitz	I think I need to restart httd	Jun 05 13:09
schestowitz	httpd	Jun 05 13:09
ushimitsudoki	Big time. More of his same song and dance here: http://pr.euractiv.com/node/2465	Jun 05 13:09
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schestowitz	OK...	Jun 05 13:10
schestowitz	ushimitsudoki: search BN on him :-)	Jun 05 13:10
schestowitz	BN brings together external links	Jun 05 13:11
schestowitz	His past has some racist pro-communism something IIRC	Jun 05 13:11
schestowitz	I'd have to check my notes	Jun 05 13:11
schestowitz	Past as in decades ago	Jun 05 13:11
schestowitz	The EPO Does Not Work for European Citizens < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/epo-not-for-european-citizens/ >	Jun 05 13:14
ushimitsudoki	Looks like the "european software association" is spinning the same lines too. Why are these people even in an Open Source working group? I have to read more on this	Jun 05 13:15
trmanco	http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2267/imagem1lui.png	Jun 05 13:23
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schestowitz	ushimitsudoki: thanks for looking	Jun 05 13:32
schestowitz	trmanco: wow	Jun 05 13:32
schestowitz	It DOES have good results	Jun 05 13:32
trmanco	but the problem really isn't the results	Jun 05 13:33
schestowitz	$Decision Engine sez: use Google	Jun 05 13:33
trmanco	see what the have put on google.pt	Jun 05 13:33
trmanco	the title	Jun 05 13:33
schestowitz	Yes, I know	Jun 05 13:33
trmanco	it's sort of an offensive word	Jun 05 13:33
oiaohm	http://www.fsdaily.com/blog/were-back Bugger	Jun 05 13:38
oiaohm	What happens when you are on the wrong host schestowitz.	Jun 05 13:39
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schestowitz	oiaohm: they run from backup	Jun 05 13:46
schestowitz	It's out of date	Jun 05 13:46
schestowitz	Where does Firefox store its dictionary files?	Jun 05 13:49
schestowitz	It doesn't use aspell or ispell	Jun 05 13:50
oiaohm	http://lifehacker.com/software/dictionary/remove-misspelled-words-from-your-firefox-dictionary-244497.php << Here. Of course you can add dictioraries as extentions schestowitz	Jun 05 13:57
schestowitz	Patents Roundup: What Bilski Means to IBM, Microsoft; Patent Trolls Still Win < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/what-bilski-means-to-ibm-ms/ >	Jun 05 14:03
schestowitz	oiaohm: thanks, exactly what I needed	Jun 05 14:03
fewa	i always find aspell just doesnt have enough bredth	Jun 05 14:04
fewa	not enought words	Jun 05 14:04
fewa	im always adding legitimate words	Jun 05 14:04
schestowitz	I don't have such a file in GNU//Linux	Jun 05 14:06
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oiaohm	Have you added any words? schestowitz	Jun 05 14:07
schestowitz	YEs, many	Jun 05 14:08
schestowitz	This article is from 2007	Jun 05 14:08
schestowitz	The file may have moves	Jun 05 14:08
schestowitz	*ved	Jun 05 14:08
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fewa	schestowitz, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gfh_6sbQI	Jun 05 14:30
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fewa	election is tomarrow	Jun 05 14:30
tacone	http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/152 aggregated on the official ubuntu planet	Jun 05 14:30
fewa	could me interesting	Jun 05 14:32
tacone	interesting comments also. many people are concerned	Jun 05 14:32
tacone	schestowitz give a look.	Jun 05 14:32
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schestowitz	Group post: How Novell Harms GNU/Linux Programming < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/monodevelop-windows-monoculture/ >	Jun 05 14:39
fewa	embrace, extend, extinguish	Jun 05 14:41
fewa	clear as day	Jun 05 14:41
schestowitz	tacone: thanks, queued	Jun 05 14:41
tacone	and declared.	Jun 05 14:41
tacone	schestowitz: nothing important. but no flame yet in the comments, just mono concerned people	Jun 05 14:42
tacone	oh anyone knows a good way to create countdowns?	Jun 05 14:45
fewa	what type?	Jun 05 14:45
tacone	end of the world in 15 days	Jun 05 14:46
tacone	14 days.. etc.	Jun 05 14:46
fewa	http://coolepochcountdown.com/	Jun 05 14:46
fewa	hmm it doesnt have relive the momeny anymore	Jun 05 14:47
tacone	i'm about to do something i don't know how many people will like :)	Jun 05 14:47
fewa	ut there are alot of videos	Jun 05 14:48
fewa	just put javascript:partytime(); in the addressbar	Jun 05 14:50
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fewa	look at the MONO licence notes	Jun 05 15:10
fewa	Novell makes a public statement that puting software on ROM violates the LGPL	Jun 05 15:11
oiaohm	ROM remember what is a CD-R.	Jun 05 15:12
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oiaohm	It is a removeable ROM fewa	Jun 05 15:13
mib_dya64o	putting what software ?	Jun 05 15:13
oiaohm	So by Novell statement you cannot make a livecd out of it.	Jun 05 15:13
fewa	yeah, its a interpretation that was not intended, nor used by anyone else	Jun 05 15:13
oiaohm	Only flash sticks.	Jun 05 15:13
oiaohm	So every ISO download of Ubuntu is illegal.	Jun 05 15:13
mib_dya64o	ROM and CD-R are not the same things	Jun 05 15:13
fewa	http://pastebin.com/m50a420cc	Jun 05 15:13
oiaohm	Pressed CD are pure ROM mib_dya64o	Jun 05 15:14
oiaohm	That Ubuntu sends out by the way.	Jun 05 15:14
fewa	if you look at the GPL-3 it is very clear, that if the distrobuter cannot modify the software, there is no obligation	Jun 05 15:14
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mib_dya64o	ROM is an addressable IC (Chip), that is considered a computer component, or at best firmware	Jun 05 15:14
oiaohm	Wrong.	Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64o	between the difference between soft and hardware	Jun 05 15:15
oiaohm	CD-ROM	Jun 05 15:15
oiaohm	What are the last 3 letters.	Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64o	CD is a serial media storage device	Jun 05 15:15
oiaohm	ROM is a class of storage.	Jun 05 15:15
oiaohm	Does not have to be a IC chip.	Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64o	not a rondom access Read Only memory	Jun 05 15:15
mib_dya64o	its more a system component than a class of storage,	Jun 05 15:16
MinceR	not as serial as tape :>	Jun 05 15:16
mib_dya64o	I would not call L1,l2,L3 caches as media storage.	Jun 05 15:16
oiaohm	Compact Disc, read-only-memory << CD-ROM expanded mib_dya64o	Jun 05 15:16
oiaohm	Notice something.	Jun 05 15:16
oiaohm	CD-ROM is a Compact Disc shaped ROM.	Jun 05 15:17
oiaohm	Novel clearly said no ROM.	Jun 05 15:17
oiaohm	That includes CD-ROM.	Jun 05 15:17
oiaohm	If they meant IC chips they should have limited it.	Jun 05 15:18
fewa	they are purposefully misinterpreting the LGPL	Jun 05 15:18
oiaohm	Read only memory comes in a few different forms.	Jun 05 15:18
mib_dya64o	what does the type of media have to do with a license ?	Jun 05 15:18
fewa	read the pastebin	Jun 05 15:18
mib_dya64o	considering GPL is basically a copyright type contract.	Jun 05 15:18
fewa	thats LICENCE from the mono tarball	Jun 05 15:18
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mib_dya64o	if the code was written on a bit of scrap paper as long as it has the license and copyright notice its level IMHO :)	Jun 05 15:20
mib_dya64o	legal	Jun 05 15:20
fewa	they are applying a stretched interpretation of 6.a, b, 7 of the lgpl.	Jun 05 15:20
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Read-only_memory Pays to understand.	Jun 05 15:21
mib_dya64o	dont need wikipedia to tell me what a ROM is my friend	Jun 05 15:22
oiaohm	Basically CD-R CD-ROM DVD-R's DVD-ROM's are all ROM class. cd-rw and other rewritable medias are not.	Jun 05 15:22
fewa	schestowitz, you reading this	Jun 05 15:22
oiaohm	Thinking distributions used pressed cd/dvds that a pure rom there is no way they can ship mono.	Jun 05 15:23
oiaohm	Its like RAM the first large form of that was like CRT screens with a reader. Using phospher lag to hold the data. Neither ROM or RAM is linked to chips really. They are just classifications.	Jun 05 15:25
schestowitz	fewa: what about?	Jun 05 15:25
mib_dya64o	I was just making the point that in this context that I would assume they were refering to ROM and RAM inside a Computer and not removable media, i could be wrong	Jun 05 15:25
oiaohm	You don't assume with law.	Jun 05 15:25
fewa	http://pastebin.com/m50a420cc	Jun 05 15:26
oiaohm	If you take the max meaning with law.	Jun 05 15:26
oiaohm	Also bios roms on a lot of devices are removal media too from there sockets mib_dya64o	Jun 05 15:26
fewa	^^ thats the LICENCE file of the mono tarball	Jun 05 15:26
schestowitz	Oh, I see..	Jun 05 15:27
fewa	if that doesn't make people see the legal aggression of mono, i don't know what will	Jun 05 15:28
schestowitz	fewa: but what to point out?	Jun 05 15:28
schestowitz	Where is the ambiguous part?	Jun 05 15:28
mib_dya64o	muray code and paper tape, punched cards were soe of the ealiest I/O and the memory was more like dynamic RAM, but was magnetic core memory that required constant refreshing	Jun 05 15:29
*schestowitz does a post on mono ATM		Jun 05 15:29
fewa	<oiaohm> Thinking distributions used pressed cd/dvds that a pure rom there is no way they can ship mono.	Jun 05 15:29
oiaohm	Examples of meaning under law don't have to be counted. consider software burned into a ROM, systems where end users would not be able to upgrade	Jun 05 15:30
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oiaohm	From the consider to upgrade is what you are not allowed to do.	Jun 05 15:31
oiaohm	After that they give examples.	Jun 05 15:31
oiaohm	Yep loop hole contract.	Jun 05 15:31
fewa	but even if the software is burned onto ROM, why would that violate the LGPL	Jun 05 15:32
mib_dya64o	If you read it oiaohm you'll see they are refering to the IC type ROM in embedded systems not CD-ROMS	Jun 05 15:32
mib_dya64o	I dont see why it would	Jun 05 15:32
oiaohm	By law the examples don't count.	Jun 05 15:32
oiaohm	If they wanted to exclude a rom type they should have said.	Jun 05 15:32
mib_dya64o	Im not sure about all of the LGPL but if its burnt into a ROM (chip) and you are unable to read it it may violate the view the code bit?	Jun 05 15:33
oiaohm	They should have put chip	Jun 05 15:34
oiaohm	They did not.	Jun 05 15:34
oiaohm	So they screwed it up.	Jun 05 15:34
mib_dya64o	They did say it, and used ROM as the example	Jun 05 15:34
oiaohm	Law.	Jun 05 15:34
oiaohm	Those examples only are a guide have no legal meaning.	Jun 05 15:34
fewa	oiaohm, still, they are intrepreting that executing LGPL code with non-GPL-compatible code on a ROM is a violation of the LGPL	Jun 05 15:35
oiaohm	Common mistake people make with device licence contracts mib_dya64o.	Jun 05 15:35
oiaohm	Is doing something that is not in the examples then getting hammered for breach of contract.	Jun 05 15:36
oiaohm	they trying to argue the examples suggested that it was not this.	Jun 05 15:36
oiaohm	Legally it don't hold.	Jun 05 15:36
oiaohm	If my view is wrong Novell need to release a statement proving legal clarity on the issue.	Jun 05 15:38
mib_dya64o	Thats what that statement is, I guess if the FSF does not agree with it, they will not ratify it, or they will take appropriate action	Jun 05 15:39
schestowitz	Some illustrative images in "Microsoft is Using Mono and MonoDevelop to Leverage Windows and .NET" < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/embrace-extend-and-monodevelop/ >	Jun 05 15:40
oiaohm	Really at min Novell need to be requested to publicly clear up that rom statement.	Jun 05 15:41
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mib_dya64o	Did you read it ? its quite clear.	Jun 05 15:42
oiaohm	#	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	an embedded console, a game console that imposes limitations	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	#	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	on the distribution and access to the code, a phone platform	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	#	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	that prevents end users from upgrading Moonlight	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	all that is example.	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	No legal meaning mib_dya64o	Jun 05 15:43
oiaohm	You say clear its quite clear ROM format is forbid.	Jun 05 15:44
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oiaohm	That would be the contract take of what they wrote.	Jun 05 15:44
fewa	just a note, because of the way the LGPL works, additional rules cannot be attached to it, what novell is doing here is not alliterating contract statements, but instead pontificating their interpretation of it.	Jun 05 15:46
fewa	perhaps	Jun 05 15:46
oiaohm	Still it need to be cleared up.	Jun 05 15:47
fewa	*interpretation of the copyright licence	Jun 05 15:47
oiaohm	system is also one of the worst words you use in a contract without a define.	Jun 05 15:47
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oiaohm	In this case due to system not being defined it could reduce down to being the cd itself.	Jun 05 15:48
fewa	oiaohm, its not a contract	Jun 05 15:48
*schestowitz RUBS EYES		Jun 05 15:48
schestowitz	No way: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090604/1019495131.shtml (British Government Says No To Three Strikes)	Jun 05 15:48
schestowitz	Did they get Gordy et al tipsy?	Jun 05 15:49
schestowitz	oiaohm, others: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090604/1717095134.shtml (FTC Shuts Down Popular Scammer ISP; But Doesn't Seem To Be Impacting Spam That Much)	Jun 05 15:50
schestowitz	That's the host of FSDaily and FS Magazine	Jun 05 15:50
oiaohm	That is a contract. fewa. Shortest contract is 1 line of text.	Jun 05 15:50
schestowitz	"From the details, it sounds similar to the story from late last year when upstream service providers pulled the plug on another hosting firm, McColo (due to public pressure, not gov't intervention), and cut off huge amounts of spam, since so many spammers relied on botnets through McColo."	Jun 05 15:50
schestowitz	BN has a 1773 host now	Jun 05 15:51
schestowitz	1337	Jun 05 15:51
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oiaohm	Something with what I do fewa and mib_dya64o is that I require a full understanding of contract law. Assessment and aquirement of software to use embedded. Lot of people fail to spot contracts.	Jun 05 15:53
fewa	oiaohm, but the lgpl states that it itsself cannot be encumbered by additional restrictions	Jun 05 15:55
fewa	so any contract or intrepretation applied by novell must lie within the confines of the LGPL	Jun 05 15:55
oiaohm	ROM state with lgpl has not been tested in court of law.	Jun 05 15:56
oiaohm	So applying the restriction to rom could be betting that the wording of LGPL does not protect rom usage.	Jun 05 15:57
fewa	exactly	Jun 05 15:57
oiaohm	So Novell little extra contract there could be valid.	Jun 05 15:57
mib_dya64o	Thats what they are saying, they are saying as they cannot comply with LGPL, they will re-license it for specific situations like embedded consols	Jun 05 15:57
mib_dya64o	There not adding to the LGPL, they are re-licensing it.	Jun 05 15:58
fewa	mib_dya64o, not in that document	Jun 05 15:58
oiaohm	The addon contract reactions with LGPL is grey.	Jun 05 15:59
schestowitz	Major Novell news!! "The civil suit filed by Kerry and Pamela Novell claims that Darin E. Wanless watched Pamela Novell undress through her window." http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/jun/04/lawsuit-brought-against-peeper/	Jun 05 15:59
schestowitz	Ooohhh. Nakes Novell...	Jun 05 15:59
schestowitz	*Naked..	Jun 05 15:59
oiaohm	It could be really bad to presume its wrong then it turns out solid.	Jun 05 15:59
mib_dya64o	gives Novell the flexibility to relicense the code for enbedded systems static linking or commercial settings where the LGPL can not be used.	Jun 05 16:00
mib_dya64o	should be in quotes	Jun 05 16:00
oiaohm	The or commerical setting.	Jun 05 16:00
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oiaohm	Does that cover other commerical distributions.	Jun 05 16:01
oiaohm	There are a lot of little nasty questions.	Jun 05 16:01
oiaohm	It has to be one of the most vague contracts I have seen.	Jun 05 16:01
mib_dya64o	This code is dual licensed under the LGPL or commercial licenses.	Jun 05 16:01
mib_dya64o	again quotes	Jun 05 16:01
fewa	oiaohm, purposefully	Jun 05 16:01
mib_dya64o	yes	Jun 05 16:02
oiaohm	My training makes me read it as it worst.	Jun 05 16:02
oiaohm	Not allow myself to read it with hope they are kind.	Jun 05 16:02
oiaohm	Hope they are kind is how to really get into trouble.	Jun 05 16:02
schestowitz	Lots of Mono today... I hope you're reading us, but just in case:	Jun 05 16:03
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/embrace-extend-and-monodevelop/	Jun 05 16:03
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/monodevelop-windows-monoculture/	Jun 05 16:03
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/mono-monologue/	Jun 05 16:03
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oiaohm	licence alone on mono should give any commercial distributions second thoughts.	Jun 05 16:05
mib_dya64o	if history has taught me anything, (and it probably hasn't) it's that licenses can be changed anytime to almost anything.	Jun 05 16:08
schestowitz	Excellent Novell analysis from Dr. Oliver Diedrich: http://www.h-online.com/open/Novell-On-the-road-to-becoming-a-Linux-business--/features/113461	Jun 05 16:08
oiaohm	Rule one of software acquirement licence vague don't walk, run for the nearest exist.	Jun 05 16:08
oiaohm	exist/exit	Jun 05 16:09
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oiaohm	If novel had not provided that rom statement in a count of law you could have argued fair interperation.	Jun 05 16:10
oiaohm	with LGPL and basically walked.	Jun 05 16:10
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oiaohm	mib_dya64o: licenses can only be changed if number you are the owner of the code. number two the licence gives you permission to change it.	Jun 05 16:14
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oiaohm	But a licence is a contract. So if you where granted a license with X Y an Z terms it cannot be changed after you have been given it.	Jun 05 16:15
satipera	Hello all, Roy I have had you on RSS for about a week or so now. Have you ever been on the receiving end of any legal action?	Jun 05 16:15
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mib_dya64o	I assume when you "change" the license you are no longer bound by the previous license, as long as you own the original code and Hay satipera	Jun 05 16:16
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oiaohm	You cannot take back licences all ready granted under the previous mib_dya64o	Jun 05 16:17
oiaohm	Unless that was written into the licence	Jun 05 16:17
mib_dya64o	yes, you can ask the BitKeeper guy,,	Jun 05 16:18
oiaohm	BitKeeper licence had a clause allowing it.	Jun 05 16:18
oiaohm	Yes why it pays to read licences carefully.	Jun 05 16:18
mib_dya64o	few if any licenses would not have such a cluse, including the GPL	Jun 05 16:19
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oiaohm	GPL only applies if you break GPL's conditions.	Jun 05 16:20
fewa	calling such a license a license is ludicris, it subserviance	Jun 05 16:20
oiaohm	So GPL is basically for life.	Jun 05 16:20
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oiaohm	Ok at last 70 years after the authors death.	Jun 05 16:21
oiaohm	last/least	Jun 05 16:21
fewa	:P	Jun 05 16:21
oiaohm	But for our case life.	Jun 05 16:21
fewa	the last authors death	Jun 05 16:21
oiaohm	Yep.	Jun 05 16:21
mib_dya64o	It too can (and has) been changed, and its up to interpretation what "IN THE SPIRIT" means in strict legal terms	Jun 05 16:21
fewa	so when the code no longer runs	Jun 05 16:21
oiaohm	And we are long gone.	Jun 05 16:21
oiaohm	From out point of view life.	Jun 05 16:22
fewa	mib_dya64o, it is not changed, it mearly gives licensors a _option_ to move to a new license	Jun 05 16:22
mib_dya64o	the LGPL ?	Jun 05 16:22
fewa	very important point to take note of	Jun 05 16:22
fewa	the IN THE SPIRIT, new licences clause	Jun 05 16:22
oiaohm	LGPL 2.1 or latter clause.	Jun 05 16:22
mib_dya64o	yes that is an extension of the GPLv3	Jun 05 16:22
oiaohm	Not all GPL have the latter.	Jun 05 16:23
oiaohm	Novell releases a lot locked to a version.	Jun 05 16:23
fewa	linus on git places himself as the decider of weather it can be relicenced under a new GNU license	Jun 05 16:24
oiaohm	And the Linux kernel.	Jun 05 16:24
oiaohm	It don't have the or latter option either.	Jun 05 16:24
fewa	http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=COPYING	Jun 05 16:26
fewa	so it would apply retroactively if he approved of a new license	Jun 05 16:26
mib_dya64o	for the Kernel ? i have doubts if he would be able to re-license it due to the large number of copyright holders	Jun 05 16:27
oiaohm	There is a legal way todo it.	Jun 05 16:28
oiaohm	But its slow.	Jun 05 16:28
mib_dya64o	also a software way to do it, find who you can, and re-write the code copyrighted to those you cant find or who wont give permission	Jun 05 16:29
schestowitz	satipera: hi	Jun 05 16:29
oiaohm	You would have to advertise the change basically world wide. Then wait 7 years before you could apply it if no one answered against it.	Jun 05 16:29
schestowitz	Hold on, just catching up...	Jun 05 16:29
oiaohm	Or do the rewrite mib_dya64o	Jun 05 16:29
schestowitz	satipera: no legal documents sent to me, no... I think PJ got some	Jun 05 16:29
schestowitz	China blocking websites on Tiananmen anniversary http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25489/1054/	Jun 05 16:29
schestowitz	Kind of like AUssie next year	Jun 05 16:30
schestowitz	The ConroyFilter(R)	Jun 05 16:30
fewa	america has been doing thankfully better on that front	Jun 05 16:30
fewa	(although it is no paradise)	Jun 05 16:30
schestowitz	SUSE people sometimes rattle the cage, with involvement of Novell people.	Jun 05 16:31
schestowitz	But nothing legal. They don't open that can of worms	Jun 05 16:31
mib_dya64o	when your prime minister speaks chinese, what do you expect from Australia.	Jun 05 16:32
mib_dya64o	On the leaked banned list was "canteen.com.au" because it had "teen" in it, but its a teen cancer helping site and group !!	Jun 05 16:34
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fewa	geeze teen is a banned word	Jun 05 16:36
fewa	how much myspace does that block? or are there "free speech zones" that dont get blocked?	Jun 05 16:37
trmanco	I've just installed rockbox on my ipod	Jun 05 16:37
schestowitz	teen can be 19	Jun 05 16:37
trmanco	:)	Jun 05 16:37
schestowitz	iWHat?!!	Jun 05 16:38
trmanco	I do have an ipod you know :-P	Jun 05 16:39
schestowitz	http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=10209	Jun 05 16:39
trmanco	it was a present	Jun 05 16:39
fewa	schestowitz, thats not my point, my point is that they are banning speech of a whole generation of people just because they identify themselves	Jun 05 16:39
schestowitz	MinceR's g/f: http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/jobbydouche-2.jpg	Jun 05 16:39
trmanco	I hvan't used it in a long time though, more that a year	Jun 05 16:39
fewa	its like banning the word gay, or liberal, or christian	Jun 05 16:39
trmanco	I finally put it to good use with free software	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	fewa: the word "boycott" is strong	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	ALso "protest"	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	"Union organisers"	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	ooooooh.. NASTY!	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	Those agitators..	Jun 05 16:40
fewa	sexy union action	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	In Russia, a lot of the news MUST be positive	Jun 05 16:40
schestowitz	fewa: TEEN union action	Jun 05 16:41
schestowitz	teen gang action	Jun 05 16:41
schestowitz	ERRRR	Jun 05 16:41
*schestowitz flagged as offender		Jun 05 16:41
tacone	schestowitz: tomorrow i'll be away	Jun 05 16:56
tacone	i scheduled a post about open sourcing launchpad with a countdown to embed on sites	Jun 05 16:57
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nicktastic	Anyone know what happened to fsdaily?v	Jun 05 17:17
satipera	Roy I just read your answer, I thought perhaps you were like Private Eye mag worried about the mail in the morning in case of letters from lawyers.	Jun 05 17:18
schestowitz	nicktastic: host died	Jun 05 17:19
schestowitz	shut down by FTC for spam	Jun 05 17:19
schestowitz	So FSDaily moved	Jun 05 17:20
schestowitz	satipera: what would Novell go after?	Jun 05 17:20
schestowitz	Trademarks in domain name?	Jun 05 17:20
schestowitz	They should endure criticism like grown-ups	Jun 05 17:20
nicktastic	schestowitz: Oh, that one in California	Jun 05 17:21
nicktastic	Thanks for the info	Jun 05 17:21
schestowitz	"From the details, it sounds similar to the story from late last year when upstream service providers pulled the plug on another hosting firm, McColo (due to public pressure, not gov't intervention), and cut off huge amounts of spam, since so many spammers relied on botnets through McColo."	Jun 05 17:24
schestowitz	http://techdirt.com/articles/20090604/1717095134.shtml (FTC Shuts Down Popular Scammer ISP; But Doesn't Seem To Be Impacting Spam That Much)	Jun 05 17:24
schestowitz	http://virtuallyspeaking.ning.com/events/cryptographer-security-expert	Jun 05 17:25
schestowitz	"The bankruptcy of GM will cause unnecessary pain and unfairness — for instance, to people who bought cars with defects — and could easily have been avoided. Even worse, although the US will take majority control of GM, Obama has no interest in changing the foolish priorities that landed GM in bankruptcy."	Jun 05 17:26
schestowitz	http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202009%20%28Bankruptcy%20of%20GM%29 What almost amuses me is that he doesn't talk about the layoffs	Jun 05 17:26
schestowitz	Where will women go now? < http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortion/ >	Jun 05 17:27
schestowitz	UN Rejects Calls for Sri Lanka War Crimes Inquiry < http://www.buzzle.com/articles/272525.html >	Jun 05 17:28
MinceR	schestowitz: -_-	Jun 05 17:28
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satipera	Roy, good point it seems balanced and accurate, besides they could not go after every who hosts the information	Jun 05 17:39
schestowitz	FS Daily is down again..	Jun 05 17:39
satipera	every person	Jun 05 17:39
schestowitz	Crusades... meh.. http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488	Jun 05 17:40
satipera	bye all, have fun	Jun 05 17:40
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schestowitz	ARMs race: Qualcomm on Smartbooks: Smartphone Experience in a Larger Form Factor < http://jkontherun.com/2009/06/02/qualcomm-on-smartbooks-smartphone-experience-in-a-larger-form-factor/ >	Jun 05 17:42
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zer0c00l	try typing "linux" in www.bing.com :D	Jun 05 17:44
schestowitz	I never visited the Bong	Jun 05 17:45
schestowitz	B0rg's Bong.com	Jun 05 17:45
trmanco	http://www.bing.com/search?q=microsoft+sucks&go=&form=QBRE&filt=all	Jun 05 17:46
trmanco	nice and relevant	Jun 05 17:46
schestowitz	Is Acer using Moblin or Android? Now I'm confused.. http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133889	Jun 05 17:49
schestowitz	Opera looks nice.. I'd use it if it was Free software... http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Beta-of-Opera-10-for-Linux-Shines-113266.shtml	Jun 05 17:50
schestowitz	trmanco: new Linux Caixa Magica 14 is out	Jun 05 17:52
schestowitz	Worth blogging in openmania perhaps	Jun 05 17:53
trmanco	yeah, I've read that, will do, thanks	Jun 05 17:53
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schestowitz	This guy calls Vista7 just "Vista 2": http://www.palluxo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=512:my-name-is-mac-and-i-am-a-linux&catid=90:blogs&Itemid=284	Jun 05 17:56
schestowitz	trmanco: did you see the Spanish pres video?	Jun 05 17:56
schestowitz	DaemonFC: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488	Jun 05 17:56
trmanco	schestowitz, of what?	Jun 05 17:57
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I'm not quite sure what to make about that	Jun 05 17:57
schestowitz	Not seen those who use the military to spread their religion?	Jun 05 17:59
schestowitz	Like spreading bibles in Afghanistan?	Jun 05 17:59
schestowitz	trmanco: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-wants-spain/	Jun 05 17:59
schestowitz	This reminds of me the Portugates incident last year	Jun 05 18:00
mib_dya64o	like the salvation army ?	Jun 05 18:00
DaemonFC	schestowitz: WordPerfect Mail says "Copyright Yahoo"	Jun 05 18:00
DaemonFC	is this some rebranded thing?	Jun 05 18:00
schestowitz	Microsoft loves Spain like a poodle loves a rubber ball that it's humping.	Jun 05 18:00
schestowitz	Microsoft looks at everything it touches asking, "how can we monetise this?"	Jun 05 18:01
schestowitz	Even charities	Jun 05 18:01
schestowitz	Like the Aussie ones that boycott it now	Jun 05 18:01
schestowitz	mib_dya64o: I guess so. It leads to resentment there. Why make things even worse in Afghanistan?	Jun 05 18:01
trmanco	heh	Jun 05 18:01
trmanco	good for extremadura	Jun 05 18:02
trmanco	:D	Jun 05 18:02
schestowitz	Yeah	Jun 05 18:02
trmanco	it seems they didn't go with the flow	Jun 05 18:02
schestowitz	Bill Gates... Bill Gates.........Bill Gates.....Bill Gates...	Jun 05 18:02
schestowitz	I think he has a man.crash();	Jun 05 18:02
schestowitz	*crush	Jun 05 18:02
trmanco	lol	Jun 05 18:02
MinceR	"I was playing Unreal Tournament (the old one, not any of the 200x series, so not a hugely intensive game) in coherence mode, and my computer shut down to prevent heat damage."	Jun 05 18:03
MinceR	sounds like crApple failed at cooling	Jun 05 18:03
schestowitz	BN will soon go past the 20k comments milestone	Jun 05 18:04
MinceR	and reducing clock speed to save the hw without shutting down	Jun 05 18:04
schestowitz	Over 6500 posts now	Jun 05 18:04
mib_dya64o	HAL + 1 = IBM...... VMS + 1 = WNT (Win NT)	Jun 05 18:04
schestowitz	MinceR: bull	Jun 05 18:04
MinceR	or maybe it just crashed	Jun 05 18:04
schestowitz	Apple is cool	Jun 05 18:04
MinceR	lol	Jun 05 18:04
schestowitz	Just not that kind of cool.	Jun 05 18:04
MinceR	lol	Jun 05 18:04
MinceR	it's no kind of cool	Jun 05 18:04
schestowitz	Keep apples in the fringe	Jun 05 18:04
MinceR	well, except for the conformists' kind of "cool"	Jun 05 18:05
schestowitz	Keep mainstream at the fringe	Jun 05 18:05
schestowitz	*fridge ^^	Jun 05 18:05
MinceR	:D	Jun 05 18:05
MinceR	nice typo	Jun 05 18:05
mib_dya64o	you were right the first time LOL	Jun 05 18:05
schestowitz	MinceR: that's Mac mentality	Jun 05 18:05
schestowitz	Realiy: Mac crashes	Jun 05 18:05
schestowitz	Fanboy: Apple saved me [sic] day	Jun 05 18:05
mib_dya64o	that could be a good linux motto !!!	Jun 05 18:05
MinceR	so i was saying that maybe it just crashed and he decided it "shut down to prevent heat damage" because he can't believe that macs can and do crash	Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz	"zong!! it was oiverheating, I tells ya!"	Jun 05 18:06
MinceR	indeed	Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz	LOL	Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz	" maybe it just crashed and he decided it "shut down to prevent heat damage""	Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz	"Sheesh... let's make it seem like a suicide"	Jun 05 18:06
schestowitz	"Got to make Apple look innocent whispers Got to make Apple look innocent whispers Got to make Apple look innocent whispers Got to make Apple look innocent whispers"	Jun 05 18:07
schestowitz	Let me find something..	Jun 05 18:07
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&ei=fFQpSr0j0o2MB_WNqeYK&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=apple+anderson+gates+accounting&spell=1	Jun 05 18:07
schestowitz	Enjoy. Watch how all the fanboys and Apple execs jump to defend Jobs after accounting fraud	Jun 05 18:08
schestowitz	Oops.	Jun 05 18:08
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=apple+anderson+jobs+accounting&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=apple+anderson+jobs+accounting&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=	Jun 05 18:08
*schestowitz never had him system shut down for "cooling". Ever.		Jun 05 18:09
schestowitz	└─(18:09 $)─> uptime	Jun 05 18:10
schestowitz	18:09:24 up 93 days, 3:27, 2 users, load average: 1.65, 1.28, 1.16	Jun 05 18:10
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MinceR	i hope he doesn't get away with this	Jun 05 18:13
schestowitz	http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184574/netbooks-exist-microsoft "He said that the Vole wants to "redefine mini-notebooks" that Intel has categorized as netbooks. The new Volish term will be "low cost small notebook PC".	Jun 05 18:21
schestowitz	"	Jun 05 18:21
schestowitz	MS is determined to kill netbooks	Jun 05 18:21
schestowitz	Silly bugger	Jun 05 18:21
schestowitz	He can't ignore ARM	Jun 05 18:22
schestowitz	MinceR: he's rich. In the US he can get away with everything, even murder (c/f OJ)	Jun 05 18:22
schestowitz	Next week I will post some Ballmer crimes	Jun 05 18:23
schestowitz	http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184576/dell-lebanon-crisis "HARDWARE FLOGGER Dell has been sued by Lebanon, the town, not the country, for failing to deliver promised jobs in exchange for tax breaks."	Jun 05 18:24
mib_dya64o	those crazy Lebanese, its all Clingers fault.	Jun 05 18:25
schestowitz	Malware steals ATM accounts and PIN codes < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184568/malware-steals-atm-accounts-pin-codes >	Jun 05 18:26
schestowitz	mib_dya64o: should see Japan..	Jun 05 18:26
schestowitz	http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/japanese-software-regulator-bans-rape-games-20090605-byc5.html	Jun 05 18:26
schestowitz	Basically, if I read this correctly, you can't put women in a FPS	Jun 05 18:27
schestowitz	That would in fact count as "rape"	Jun 05 18:27
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fewa	japaneese stuff can get pretty nasty schestowitz	Jun 05 18:28
schestowitz	Acer Android netbook to dual boot Windows < http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/139969 > But Microsoft says "netbooks" are no more.	Jun 05 18:28
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schestowitz	fewa: katanas?	Jun 05 18:29
fewa	the game regulation	Jun 05 18:29
schestowitz	Oh, I see. I thought you meant they were more violent\	Jun 05 18:30
schestowitz	Same in Germany	Jun 05 18:30
fewa	microsoft is going to try to prevent netbooks from getting better	Jun 05 18:32
schestowitz	There's also that sword incident where a gamer from japan warned in IM before going mad in the streets killing real people	Jun 05 18:32
schestowitz	fewa: or cheaper	Jun 05 18:32
schestowitz	ARM foils it	Jun 05 18:32
schestowitz	Microsoft is not sure what to do	Jun 05 18:32
schestowitz	It's losing a lot of money there	Jun 05 18:32
fewa	they have no control over ARM	Jun 05 18:32
schestowitz	Intel must not help their cartel	Jun 05 18:32
fewa	but still... dell's new netbooks arnt neccicarily better, but they cost more	Jun 05 18:33
fewa	the mini 10, 12 over the discontinues 9	Jun 05 18:33
schestowitz	It is a real tragedy that ExxonMobil is destroying the world while AstroTurfing to deny it http://www.prwatch.org/node/8400 "According to ExxonMobil's 2008 Corporate Citizenship Report and Worldwide Giving Report, the oil giant is still funding global warming skeptics. "	Jun 05 18:35
schestowitz	travesty rather	Jun 05 18:35
DaemonFC	2 TB hard drive for $229	Jun 05 18:36
schestowitz	All that proprietary hardware is messy business	Jun 05 18:36
DaemonFC	heh	Jun 05 18:36
fewa	http://www.google.com/search?name=f&hl=en&q=shell+nigeria	Jun 05 18:36
fewa	shell pays out google	Jun 05 18:36
schestowitz	Can it?	Jun 05 18:36
schestowitz	gates invests in that killing of Nigerian children	Jun 05 18:36
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schestowitz	Through BP for the most part	Jun 05 18:36
fewa	or they changed their rangs	Jun 05 18:36
DaemonFC	I still haven't managed to overrun 500 gigs	Jun 05 18:37
schestowitz	Videos here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/the-money-question-influence/	Jun 05 18:37
schestowitz	U.S. Turns to Body Counts in Afghanistan < http://www.prwatch.org/node/8398 >	Jun 05 18:38
schestowitz	"But when the Heartland Institute talks about "real science," it is hard to ignore the fact that for years they have defended the policy agenda of the tobacco industry without disclosing that they were funded by Phillip Morris." http://www.prwatch.org/node/8397T	Jun 05 18:39
schestowitz	The PR industry is criminal	Jun 05 18:39
schestowitz	Very much so,	Jun 05 18:39
schestowitz	But the press won't cover it	Jun 05 18:39
schestowitz	Because, needless to say, it's part of this plot	Jun 05 18:39
fewa	google has given corporate sites generally huge pagerank AFAIK	Jun 05 18:40
fewa	however it works idk	Jun 05 18:41
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Have you mentioned anything about Microsoft's non-standard pop3 setup?	Jun 05 18:41
DaemonFC	on Live/Hotmail	Jun 05 18:41
DaemonFC	the only non-Microsoft email client I've successfully attached to it with was SeaMonkey Mail/Thunderbird	Jun 05 18:42
DaemonFC	if your email client doesn't support TLS, it won't work	Jun 05 18:43
fewa	don't make your name include a owned name of another organization	Jun 05 18:43
schestowitz	fewa: when?	Jun 05 18:43
schestowitz	Google?	Jun 05 18:43
fewa	ie foo@hotmail	Jun 05 18:43
schestowitz	Google is now lobbying for more standards	Jun 05 18:43
schestowitz	Shoving SVG into IE	Jun 05 18:43
fewa	you have given control when you do that	Jun 05 18:43
schestowitz	Cause MS won't do it	Jun 05 18:43
fewa	google is doing some really great stuff	Jun 05 18:43
schestowitz	Could Vinje and others in ECIS force Microsoft to finally support Web standards as timbl requests? SVG is a very basic component that's required by Web applications, i.e. the "middleware" which terrifies Microsoft.	Jun 05 18:43
fewa	wave is great	Jun 05 18:44
fewa	open standards	Jun 05 18:44
schestowitz	DaemonFC: they changed a while back	Jun 05 18:44
schestowitz	No access from some old mail client	Jun 05 18:44
schestowitz	I've just contacted IBM re SVG	Jun 05 18:44
DaemonFC	WordPerfect Mail can't connect, and neither can Eudora	Jun 05 18:44
schestowitz	They should tell Bill and Steve: stop fighting the Web or face prison	Jun 05 18:44
schestowitz	These people are doing damage to technology like no other company	Jun 05 18:45
DaemonFC	Is Microsoft just doing this to make it difficult to not use their clients?	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	Microsoft is about greed, not thirst for knowledge	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	MiddleAgesSoft	Jun 05 18:45
fewa	schestowitz, bill gave another incriminating desposition	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	When?	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	Novell?	Jun 05 18:45
fewa	the one analyzed on groklaw	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	BilG...	Jun 05 18:45
fewa	yeah	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	tagline hmmm...	Jun 05 18:45
schestowitz	The criminal everyone loves	Jun 05 18:46
schestowitz	The press deemphasises the crimes	Jun 05 18:46
schestowitz	It's a taboo	Jun 05 18:46
schestowitz	And they attack "dissent"	Jun 05 18:46
schestowitz	His taxx-evading scheme gets glory	Jun 05 18:46
schestowitz	fewa: yes, I saw that	Jun 05 18:46
schestowitz	China's hi-tech answer to cheats < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8084582.stm > China's mass-handling of everything is daunting at times.	Jun 05 18:48
schestowitz	I love how the Linux VP of IBM is a total n00b at Linux.. http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=3661	Jun 05 18:49
schestowitz	Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinux	Jun 05 18:50
schestowitz	leech.. nux	Jun 05 18:50
Eruaran	We had an Intel rep in the other day	Jun 05 18:50
Eruaran	He mentioned no one is selling many i7's	Jun 05 18:51
schestowitz	IBM lets all the 'beardies' and 'hippies' do the heavy lifting and then it uses its patent 'in-damn!-icaication" to maket Linux so-looo-sions without the name Linux	Jun 05 18:51
Eruaran	We said we were	Jun 05 18:51
Eruaran	We mentioned that its very fast and powerful	Jun 05 18:51
Eruaran	and no joke	Jun 05 18:51
schestowitz	Eruaran: why would they sell it?	Jun 05 18:51
Eruaran	he wasn't being funny	Jun 05 18:51
Eruaran	he said, "is it ?"	Jun 05 18:51
schestowitz	It's heavy, it's more than a desktop needs, and it's expensive	Jun 05 18:51
Eruaran	Some of our clients have plenty of use for it	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	Intel is weird	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	Maybe a marketing guy	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	The engineers know their stuff better. They also use Linux	Jun 05 18:52
Eruaran	yeah he knew nothing about the i7 :P	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	The managers.. well, they are criminals	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	And unless the management is tossed the company is a dead thug walking	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	Because China will run it over	Jun 05 18:52
Eruaran	He just goes around telling us about the latest deals and giving us posters	Jun 05 18:52
schestowitz	Naaa...	Jun 05 18:53
schestowitz	Pass on Intel where possible	Jun 05 18:53
schestowitz	AMD has 6-corers	Jun 05 18:53
Eruaran	yes	Jun 05 18:53
fewa	i like my Phenom quad	Jun 05 18:54
fewa	soo cheap	Jun 05 18:54
fewa	intels are overpriced	Jun 05 18:54
schestowitz	But they bear 'the' logo	Jun 05 18:56
schestowitz	The CriminalInside logo/slogan	Jun 05 18:56
schestowitz	Or LeechAhead	Jun 05 18:56
fewa	which intel spend millions making a consumer trademark	Jun 05 18:56
fewa	all gotten from their monopoly money	Jun 05 18:56
fewa	honestly, i dont think users give a shit	Jun 05 18:57
fewa	important thing is that intel amd-exclusion deals will stop	Jun 05 18:59
fewa	*is for..to stop	Jun 05 18:59
mib_dya64o	just noticed the KDE and the qt app suite, GIMP, Inkscape, scribus ect have been ported fully over to windows 11	Jun 05 19:01
mib_dya64o	!! *11	Jun 05 19:01
fewa	you mean 3.1	Jun 05 19:01
MinceR	you mean !!!!111!11!11one	Jun 05 19:01
mib_dya64o	yes typo,,,,, ment !!!!	Jun 05 19:02
DaemonFC	contig.exe "C:\Tools\MinceR.exe"	Jun 05 19:02
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 05 19:02
mib_dya64o	They recoment "Stable 4.2.1	Jun 05 19:03
schestowitz	Yahoo CEO open says quite openly that Ballmer has 'Google envy' (changing the phrase "penis envy")	Jun 05 19:05
schestowitz	Ballmer's is obsessed with Google's penis	Jun 05 19:06
schestowitz	Maybe he'll get over it by hopping mad on stage and shouting that he's the greatest man in the univrse.	Jun 05 19:07
*Omar871 (n=omar@79.173.240.77.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 05 19:07
MinceR	deltree /y "C:\Program Files\Tools\DaemonFC\"	Jun 05 19:07
schestowitz	Analyst says economy leading some users to bypass Office 2007 < http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2980 >	Jun 05 19:07
schestowitz	Errrrrrrrrrrr.. maybe Office 2007 just sucks	Jun 05 19:07
schestowitz	Maybe it's not the economy	Jun 05 19:07
schestowitz	MinceR: file not found. Try undelete	Jun 05 19:08
MinceR	format c: /u /autotest	Jun 05 19:09
MinceR	(just to be sure)	Jun 05 19:09
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schestowitz	Why is this in Linux Journal? http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/cisco-join-dow-mdash-and-will-take-linux-it	Jun 05 19:24
DaemonFC	I've been editing Privoxy's default filters to fix Winamp	Jun 05 19:26
DaemonFC	for some reason Privoxy can't log anything in the Windows build	Jun 05 19:26
DaemonFC	it used to	Jun 05 19:26
schestowitz	Microsoft Windows botnets are used to impact the elections in Britain. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/opposition_website_ddos/	Jun 05 19:27
fewa	DaemonFC, i find privoxy too broken to use	Jun 05 19:28
fewa	adblock works much better	Jun 05 19:28
fewa	with cslite and noscript	Jun 05 19:28
DaemonFC	Privoxy is basically good for being unbloated and effective	Jun 05 19:28
DaemonFC	but unfortunatelyt you will need to step in and build your own whitelists	Jun 05 19:29
DaemonFC	*unfortunately	Jun 05 19:29
fewa	noscript/cslite/adblock is much easier	Jun 05 19:29
DaemonFC	most junk busting software is at least 4-40 times the size in RAM	Jun 05 19:29
DaemonFC	Adblock Plus causes Firefox to leak more RAM	Jun 05 19:29
DaemonFC	but that's the price you pay for simple	Jun 05 19:30
fewa	you can also run privaxy on a server	Jun 05 19:30
schestowitz	Eruaran: Core i7 bumped to 3.33GHz < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/core_i7_975/ > Not sure what people need this for. It's a niche market	Jun 05 19:30
DaemonFC	yes, Privoxy is not really all that friendly to configure, but it's far more useful once you figure it out	Jun 05 19:30
fewa	how man y cores in those things? 4?	Jun 05 19:30
fewa	DaemonFC, also has a horrible language	Jun 05 19:31
fewa	custom syntax	Jun 05 19:31
DaemonFC	I've found that the default filters work well for me with some whitelist tweaking	Jun 05 19:31
DaemonFC	on a case by case basis	Jun 05 19:31
DaemonFC	Privoxy can also be thought of as a security tool since it filters out malicious scripts and HTML	Jun 05 19:32
fewa	the scripts are not malicious against firefox	Jun 05 19:32
schestowitz	WTF? Microsoft shill Gavin Clarke takes something that is all about Linux and puts "Microsoft" in the headline. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/qualcomm_sun_java/	Jun 05 19:32
fewa	and they are old	Jun 05 19:32
DaemonFC	it has an entire section that does nothing but filter out malicious stuff that only affects IE 6 :)	Jun 05 19:33
DaemonFC	like the Nimda worm	Jun 05 19:33
fewa	yeah, only useful if you use broken browsers	Jun 05 19:33
DaemonFC	well, I was looking at the examples of the stuff it filters out specifically citing IE 6	Jun 05 19:33
DaemonFC	and the vast majority of it would fail to work in IE 8 anyway	Jun 05 19:34
fewa	wow schestowitz	Jun 05 19:34
DaemonFC	but it's only maybe 10-15k of plain text if that	Jun 05 19:34
fewa	in order to push microsoft's pressure-regulation of netbooks	Jun 05 19:34
DaemonFC	so it's worth keeping around to make sure nothing can slip through	Jun 05 19:34
DaemonFC	most of the privacy/security concerns no longer actually target the browser, but rather things like Java, Flash, Silverlight, .Net, and various plugins like VLC or Windows Media Player	Jun 05 19:36
DaemonFC	those are far more difficult to contain than the browser itself	Jun 05 19:36
DaemonFC	so basically the more "active content" plug ins you have in your browser, the more security problems you are adding	Jun 05 19:37
schestowitz	Eruaran: BenQ backs Android < http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/05/benq_android/ >	Jun 05 19:37
DaemonFC	that goes with Firefox extensions too	Jun 05 19:37
DaemonFC	as they can make the browser do anything they want	Jun 05 19:37
schestowitz	fewa: pls elaborate	Jun 05 19:37
DaemonFC	There's no reason why I couldn't make a Firefox extension that wipes out your user files on Windows/Linux/Mac OS X	Jun 05 19:38
DaemonFC	and it's a cross platform trojan now	Jun 05 19:38
DaemonFC	it's basically a nasty side effect of supporting the same extension architecture across different platforms	Jun 05 19:39
DaemonFC	you no longer need to extrapolate the specifics of your victim's machine, Firefox will do that for you	Jun 05 19:39
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 19:39
DaemonFC	that's why Firefox warns you and displays a countdown before you can isntall it	Jun 05 19:40
DaemonFC	they have the same level of access to your machine that an ActiveX control does in IE, and likely more	Jun 05 19:40
fewa	schestowitz, microsoft is setting its rules on netbooks, making sure they cant get cheaper, faster. Then it trys to create a illusion that it is in control, so that it actually does gain that control. That article put microsoft on naming what differnt netbooks are called, because that suggests that microsoft somehow is fit to regulate what netbook's specs are.	Jun 05 19:41
DaemonFC	there's nothing wrong with creating an add-on framework, the browser would be far less useful without one, but misleadiong the users into thinking yours is more secure is jsut wrong	Jun 05 19:41
fewa	they have to pretend microsoft is already setting things, then microsoft can start the pressure	Jun 05 19:41
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I looked up the memcpy() function you said Microsoft was telling people not to use	Jun 05 19:42
DaemonFC	there's 3 other ways to do the same thing just so you know	Jun 05 19:42
fewa	its total junk that they put that spin on a system that has nothing to do with microsoft however. Microsoft will never have any sway over such systems	Jun 05 19:42
DaemonFC	you can do them with SSE and MMX, and 3dNow!	Jun 05 19:43
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DaemonFC	# The <BLINK> and <MARQUEE> tags were crimes!	Jun 05 19:49
DaemonFC	s-</?(blink\|marquee).*>--sigU	Jun 05 19:49
DaemonFC	lmao	Jun 05 19:49
schestowitz	Not to be nervous. Windows can be hijacked in many new ways.. no fixes yet. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/ms_patch_tuesday_june/	Jun 05 19:49
DaemonFC	<blink> was Netscape and <marquee> was Microsoft	Jun 05 19:50
DaemonFC	one example of how neither of them cared about standards, only about being mutually incompatible	Jun 05 19:50
DaemonFC	and using users as pawns	Jun 05 19:50
fewa	DaemonFC, stop blabbing	Jun 05 19:51
DaemonFC	<blink> still works in Firefox, but <marquee> doesn't	Jun 05 19:51
schestowitz	Carla has a great writeup about Microsoft's current Slog against GNU/Linux: http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/linux-sucks-as.html	Jun 05 19:51
schestowitz	Wow. Some people just don't favour choice... What’s the point of Ubuntu remixes? < http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/whats-the-point-of-ubuntu-remixes/ >	Jun 05 19:55
schestowitz	What next? "Why have red cars?"	Jun 05 19:55
DaemonFC	Federal Trade Commission fines Blue Hippo $5 million dollars	Jun 05 19:55
DaemonFC	http://www.lockergnome.com/blade/2009/06/05/bluehippo-paid-5-million-fine-to-ftc-but-was-it-enough/	Jun 05 19:55
DaemonFC	deceptive trade practices	Jun 05 19:56
MinceR	privoxy can do a lot more than just blocking ads	Jun 05 20:03
fewa	i just think it has a horrible language to do it	Jun 05 20:03
schestowitz	signonnow@hotmail.co.uk - The Email Address Most Likely To Be Snooped On ? - Labour in crisis: the Hotmail conspiracy http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/2009/06/signonnowhotmailcouk---the-email-address-most-likely-to-be-snooped-on---labour-i.html	Jun 05 20:03
schestowitz	WTF is BlueHippo	Jun 05 20:04
schestowitz	And why do we need to hear about it from a Microsoft booter licker ('MVP')?	Jun 05 20:04
schestowitz	*boot	Jun 05 20:04
DaemonFC	Blue Hippo was scamming people with bad credit computer financing deals then turning around, changing it so they never actually got the thing	Jun 05 20:06
DaemonFC	til they paid far more than it was worth	Jun 05 20:06
DaemonFC	then would sue the customer if they didn't keep paying	Jun 05 20:06
DaemonFC	schestowitz: You have to go through a lot of hoops to bust junk mail, they lobby for laws that let them do all kinds of deceptive things	Jun 05 20:07
DaemonFC	they send out junk mail disquised to resemble letters from collection agencies even	Jun 05 20:08
trmanco	Bing A Google-Killer? Get Real: http://searchengineland.com/bing-a-google-killer-get-real-20510	Jun 05 20:08
DaemonFC	There's actually a little-known law that lets me march down to the post office and file junk mail as "sexually obscene"	Jun 05 20:09
DaemonFC	and get a restraining order on it	Jun 05 20:09
DaemonFC	so I made up a stack of junk letters and took them all down and did that one company at a time	Jun 05 20:09
DaemonFC	now I get maybe an odd junk mailing every several months	Jun 05 20:09
DaemonFC	I keep taking them down there and doing that though	Jun 05 20:09
schestowitz	X Input 2.0 Merged Into The X Server http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMwNg \0/	Jun 05 20:12
schestowitz	trmanco: some trolls	Jun 05 20:13
DaemonFC	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMwOA	Jun 05 20:13
schestowitz	Like the Don Reiseinger type	Jun 05 20:13
DaemonFC	Wine 1.1.23 Released With Various Fixes	Jun 05 20:13
schestowitz	Headlines that get hits	Jun 05 20:13
schestowitz	"Playstation3 will win the console wars"	Jun 05 20:13
schestowitz	"Cats prefer drinking Coke"	Jun 05 20:14
schestowitz	"KKK donate to Greepeace"	Jun 05 20:14
DaemonFC	Wine is starting to get a workable DirectX 10 implementation	Jun 05 20:14
schestowitz	Good.	Jun 05 20:14
DaemonFC	it shouldn't take them nearly as long to implement DirectX 11	Jun 05 20:14
DaemonFC	I also remember some interest in porting Wine's DirectX 10 to Windows XP	Jun 05 20:15
DaemonFC	that would be mildly hilarious	Jun 05 20:15
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I did manage to get Halo 2 for Vista running in Wine	Jun 05 20:16
DaemonFC	very recently	Jun 05 20:17
DaemonFC	1.1.22	Jun 05 20:17
DaemonFC	the game is playable, the XBOX Live redistributable obviously won't run	Jun 05 20:17
DaemonFC	so it crashes if you try to go on Live	Jun 05 20:17
schestowitz	Increased competition 'uncomfortable' for Firefox < http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/increased-competition-uncomfortable-for-firefox-605497 >	Jun 05 20:18
*schestowitz been with FF since .09		Jun 05 20:18
schestowitz	0.9	Jun 05 20:18
DaemonFC	lmao	Jun 05 20:19
DaemonFC	I was pissed when they forked it	Jun 05 20:19
DaemonFC	I tried Phoenix 0.1 and thought it was awful	Jun 05 20:19
schestowitz	It's almost at 2.0 now	Jun 05 20:19
schestowitz	Phoronix has just turned 5	Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFC	I'm still not so sure that Firefox is the right thing to do, as such	Jun 05 20:20
schestowitz	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=phoronix_birthday_5&num=1	Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFC	it's the right thing for marketing	Jun 05 20:20
schestowitz	Go wish Michael happy bday	Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFC	it's easier to install with less options	Jun 05 20:20
schestowitz	It's strange to think it's twice as old as BN	Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFC	so yeah that's what they're going for	Jun 05 20:20
schestowitz	Our Netcraft rank beats Phoronix	Jun 05 20:20
schestowitz	Also our IRC channel ;-)	Jun 05 20:20
DaemonFC	They should have an option for integrated mail/news/rss and ChatZilla	Jun 05 20:21
DaemonFC	then there's be no reason for the distinction between FF and Seamonkey	Jun 05 20:21
schestowitz	Apt URL Part Two < http://blog.nixternal.com/2009.06.03/apt-url-part-two/ >	Jun 05 20:21
schestowitz	There should be softare that's a browser, file manager, mail reader and more	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	Oh wait	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	There's already such a thing	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	It's called "Fedora"	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	Modularity is a good thing	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	Netscape tried to put lots of stuff in one app (executable)	Jun 05 20:22
DaemonFC	""Of course it was easier to compete with a Microsoft that was asleep, but it's not the case anymore. Now we have Google, we have Apple and they are amazing competitors."	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	Linux gets it right	Jun 05 20:22
DaemonFC	heh	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	Broken down at many livels	Jun 05 20:22
schestowitz	From gnu tools like rm and mv	Jun 05 20:23
schestowitz	Up to higher level bits	Jun 05 20:23
schestowitz	All reusable	Jun 05 20:23
schestowitz	pulseaudio	Jun 05 20:23
DaemonFC	schestowitz: Windows would actually be a pretty good thing were it open source, I was explainin the API personalities idea earlier	Jun 05 20:23
DaemonFC	Windows could be UNIX easier than UNIX could be Windows	Jun 05 20:24
fewa	DaemonFC, thats an unfair competition	Jun 05 20:25
fewa	its apples to oranges	Jun 05 20:25
DaemonFC	not really	Jun 05 20:25
fewa	UNIX is a very small API	Jun 05 20:25
DaemonFC	Windows NT doesn't need Win32 or depend on it	Jun 05 20:25
fewa	windows is a beamoth	Jun 05 20:25
fewa	UNIX and NT is moreso apples to apples	Jun 05 20:26
fewa	you mean windows vs GNU/Linux	Jun 05 20:26
DaemonFC	you can think of Win32 as a plug in API the the real NT system	Jun 05 20:26
DaemonFC	it would be just as easy to replace it with POSIX	Jun 05 20:26
DaemonFC	or run both at once	Jun 05 20:26
fewa	POSIX.0	Jun 05 20:26
fewa	an ancient unusable, POS	Jun 05 20:26
DaemonFC	no, that is what they implemented	Jun 05 20:27
DaemonFC	they could have made Windows a UNIX-compliant system	Jun 05 20:27
DaemonFC	and it would be just as much UNIX as OS X	Jun 05 20:27
DaemonFC	there's no reason for them to do it though	Jun 05 20:27
fewa	http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_30#head-682c73c12d5423b372cc8f926390c1e4944c0518 which of these features does windows have?	Jun 05 20:27
DaemonFC	most of them	Jun 05 20:28
MinceR	pulseaudio sucks	Jun 05 20:28
DaemonFC	they're called something different	Jun 05 20:28
fewa	DaemonFC, does NT have kexec?	Jun 05 20:29
DaemonFC	Windows isn't marketed as a patchwork of separate programs so no, it won't stress something like kexec	Jun 05 20:29
DaemonFC	that would only be useful with Hyper-V	Jun 05 20:29
fewa	thats not a seperate function	Jun 05 20:29
fewa	its very useful	Jun 05 20:29
fewa	and its not at all related to virtualization	Jun 05 20:29
DaemonFC	running kexec is something I doubt they'll ever get done reliably	Jun 05 20:31
fewa	can you hot patch NT while its running?	Jun 05 20:31
DaemonFC	it requires too many assumptions about the state of the working system	Jun 05 20:31
MinceR	i prefer to hot patch NT with a big block of zeroes	Jun 05 20:31
MinceR	there's even a button to do it, it's labeled Reset.	Jun 05 20:31
DaemonFC	now you're talking about ksplice	Jun 05 20:32
DaemonFC	which would still need reboots	Jun 05 20:32
MinceR	actually it wouldn't	Jun 05 20:32
DaemonFC	yes it woulds	Jun 05 20:32
MinceR	that's the whole point	Jun 05 20:32
fewa	MinceR, agreed, DaemonFC is trolling	Jun 05 20:32
DaemonFC	KSplice wi9ll not eliminate all reboots	Jun 05 20:32
DaemonFC	never	Jun 05 20:32
DaemonFC	at most, you're talking 80-90% of reboots eliminated	Jun 05 20:33
DaemonFC	which helps	Jun 05 20:33
DaemonFC	but it still not total uptime	Jun 05 20:33
fewa	ok DaemonFC, since you are just pushing it. Can NT hot patch its self 90% of the time	Jun 05 20:33
DaemonFC	http://www.ksplice.com/cve-evaluation	Jun 05 20:33
fewa	and DaemonFC, can you upgrade windows in any way shape or form, without restarting	Jun 05 20:33
fewa	????	Jun 05 20:33
DaemonFC	"Ksplice can correct 88% of the Linux kernel vulnerabilities from this interval without the need for rebooting and without writing any new code. "	Jun 05 20:34
schestowitz	Another Microsoft manager quits. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/05/igt-poaches-microsofts-interactive-entertainment-business-cto-chris-satchell/	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	yes you can	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	not kernel code, because that's ridiculous	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	and if a Linux distro tried to ship KPlice, they'll be sued	Jun 05 20:34
MinceR	and not user code, because its file management is broken	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	because of software patents	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	that's why no actual distribution has it	Jun 05 20:34
MinceR	so actually no, you can't patch NT while it's running	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	not because it's not ready	Jun 05 20:34
DaemonFC	because it's illegal	Jun 05 20:35
MinceR	no, distros don't have it because their package managers are designed to upgrade kernels by replacing/adding binary files	Jun 05 20:35
MinceR	and that's not how ksplice works	Jun 05 20:35
schestowitz	Aye	Jun 05 20:35
MinceR	also, you can't use ksplice in some of the cases	Jun 05 20:35
schestowitz	DaemonFC: fear mongerer	Jun 05 20:35
fewa	DaemonFC, im getting really sick of your trolling	Jun 05 20:35
schestowitz	Bush Jr.	Jun 05 20:35
DaemonFC	they could have implemented ksplice back in 2006	Jun 05 20:35
DaemonFC	they still havent	Jun 05 20:35
DaemonFC	they know what would happen	Jun 05 20:35
MinceR	they could have hanged ballmer back in 2006	Jun 05 20:36
DaemonFC	so show me who is using it	Jun 05 20:36
schestowitz	Time for Ritalin, DaemonFC	Jun 05 20:36
MinceR	s/Ritalin/kickban/	Jun 05 20:36
MinceR	:>	Jun 05 20:36
schestowitz	We'll all chip in so they you can get some at walmart	Jun 05 20:36
DaemonFC	"So, presumably, the code will eventually be proposed for a mainline merge. But there is one other little difficulty pointed out by Tomasz Chmielewski: Microsoft holds a patent described this way:	Jun 05 20:37
DaemonFC	A system and method for automatically updating software components on a running computer system without requiring any interruption of service. A software module is hotpatched by loading a patch into memory and modifying an instruction in the original module to jump to the patch. "	Jun 05 20:37
DaemonFC	http://lwn.net/Articles/280058/	Jun 05 20:37
DaemonFC	"Given that the kernel developers are now well aware of this patent, they must take it into account when deciding whether to accept this code into the mainline. It would not be surprising if they chose to avoid baiting the Microsoft FUD machine in this way, even if they all agreed that the patent lacked validity. So a promising technology risks being left out of the kernel as the result of a software patent which was filed at le	Jun 05 20:37
DaemonFC	ast 30 years too late."	Jun 05 20:37
MinceR	so why doesn't windows do that then?	Jun 05 20:38
DaemonFC	which.....is why it is NOT in Linux	Jun 05 20:38
DaemonFC	and likely won't be	Jun 05 20:38
DaemonFC	because rebooting is less problematic than patching things that are loaded	Jun 05 20:38
MinceR	especially on windows, where you spend a lot of time rebooting anyway	Jun 05 20:39
DaemonFC	no	Jun 05 20:39
DaemonFC	I reboot about every 4-6 weeks	Jun 05 20:39
DaemonFC	once you have the system in place, the only thing you really need to reboot for are system update cycles	Jun 05 20:40
DaemonFC	that happens once every month	Jun 05 20:41
mib_dya64o	for some time it seems windows, keeps the updates until you shutdown or restart your maching, then it applies them before the shutdown.	Jun 05 20:41
DaemonFC	if you ignore the security updates, you can keep a system up much longer than that	Jun 05 20:41
DaemonFC	I had an XP system up for over a year at one point	Jun 05 20:41
MinceR	if you're running windows, you're ignoring security anyway :>	Jun 05 20:42
DaemonFC	depends on how you have it set up	Jun 05 20:42
MinceR	also, what's with the 47 days bug?	Jun 05 20:43
DaemonFC	you have have it notify, but not download, download but not install, or just totally automatic	Jun 05 20:43
DaemonFC	MinceR: Thaqt was a Windows 98 bug	Jun 05 20:43
MinceR	or completely disable so you actually get to watch a movie in full screen all the way	Jun 05 20:43
MinceR	instead of being annoyed by windows update every 5 minutes	Jun 05 20:44
DaemonFC	Windows Update doesn't annoy you	Jun 05 20:44
MinceR	not once you disable it	Jun 05 20:44
DaemonFC	the tooltip can't go on top of a full screen application	Jun 05 20:44
DaemonFC	ever	Jun 05 20:44
mib_dya64o	even when auto updates is turned on, it does not pop up anymore	Jun 05 20:44
MinceR	the tooltip can't. however, the dialog box can.	Jun 05 20:45
DaemonFC	there is no dialog	Jun 05 20:45
DaemonFC	til you click the icon in the tray	Jun 05 20:45
MinceR	also, the app wasn't full screen anymore once windows update forcibly removed it from that state	Jun 05 20:45
DaemonFC	it's meant to be a very unobtrusive "User notices it and acts"	Jun 05 20:45
DaemonFC	not in your face	Jun 05 20:46
MinceR	i think i'm in a bit better position to tell whether a dialog appeared on my own computer	Jun 05 20:46
DaemonFC	obviously not	Jun 05 20:46
MinceR	you're obviously trolling	Jun 05 20:46
DaemonFC	or you're talking about an old copy of XP SP2 or something	Jun 05 20:46
DaemonFC	SP3 doesn't even do that	Jun 05 20:46
DaemonFC	SP3 changes auto updates to act more like Vista's instead of simply starting a countdown to reboot	Jun 05 20:47
DaemonFC	which is why a lot of XP users turned updates to notify only or of	Jun 05 20:47
MinceR	which is kind of the point i was talking about	Jun 05 20:47
DaemonFC	well, so you admit that no current version of Windows actually behaves in the manner you were complaining about?	Jun 05 20:48
MinceR	and by the way it was SP3	Jun 05 20:48
MinceR	well, it isn't vista	Jun 05 20:48
mib_dya64o	but it is true that with vista and win7 you do not even know you have a patch until you go to shutdown.	Jun 05 20:48
schestowitz	Google serves up the Top 10 sites to avoid at all costs < http://thenextweb.com/2009/06/04/google-serves-top-10-sites-avoid-costs/ >	Jun 05 20:48
MinceR	DaemonFC: and unless you're as stupid as you're pretending to be, you know why it isn't vista	Jun 05 20:49
DaemonFC	which is how it should be	Jun 05 20:49
DaemonFC	the in your face approach prods the user to become aggravated and turn off all security updates	Jun 05 20:49
DaemonFC	it backfires	Jun 05 20:49
MinceR	and doing updates on shutdown is stupid on laptops and on dual-booted machines	Jun 05 20:50
schestowitz	Windows update oveerrised user preferences	Jun 05 20:50
schestowitz	So you can leave a Windows machine running...	Jun 05 20:50
schestowitz	Go get some coffeee	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	And come back to GDM	Jun 05 20:51
DaemonFC	I've never had it override me	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	Bull	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	It does that	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	It forces updates	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	And in Vista reboots too	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	See the videos from Berlind, David	Jun 05 20:51
DaemonFC	if you install a Service Pack, it will notice if you don't have auto updates on and ask you to flip it on	Jun 05 20:51
schestowitz	AT: Education ministry supports GNU/Linux distribution for schools < http://www.osor.eu/news/at-education-ministry-supports-gnu-linux-distribution-for-schools > \0/ Vista helps Linux..	Jun 05 20:52
MinceR	well, ignoring user preferences isn't new in m$-land	Jun 05 20:52
schestowitz	Nope	Jun 05 20:52
MinceR	ignoring and overriding user preferences is the m$ way and not even providing them is the crApple way	Jun 05 20:52
schestowitz	chown user /window~1	Jun 05 20:52
DaemonFC	the file association idea in Windows is the most annoying thing it does	Jun 05 20:53
MinceR	why?	Jun 05 20:53
DaemonFC	if you have two programs that can handle some of the same files they both ask you to make them default	Jun 05 20:53
DaemonFC	every time you open them	Jun 05 20:53
DaemonFC	which needs a UAC elevation	Jun 05 20:53
DaemonFC	well, sometimes, depends on the context	Jun 05 20:53
DaemonFC	like default web browser is per-user	Jun 05 20:54
DaemonFC	some associations are per-system	Jun 05 20:54
MinceR	well, that's a bug in the apps -- and one of the standard practices in windows apps that makes windows even more of a hell to use	Jun 05 20:54
DaemonFC	like the default web browser could be Internet Explorer on my account, but Firefox on yours, but when one of us changes the default media player, the other gets the change too	Jun 05 20:55
DaemonFC	which is annoying as hell	Jun 05 20:55
schestowitz	hhmmmmmmmm........	Jun 05 20:55
DaemonFC	Vista takes care of that	Jun 05 20:55
schestowitz	Article removed: http://209.85.229.132/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ffcw.com%2Farticles%2F2009%2F06%2F08%2Ffeature-open-source.aspx&btnG=Search	Jun 05 20:55
DaemonFC	but it affects XP	Jun 05 20:55
MinceR	gnu/linux takes care of it too :>	Jun 05 20:55
schestowitz	:-)	Jun 05 20:56
DaemonFC	Vista with UAC on will store my file types in my virtualized registry areas	Jun 05 20:56
DaemonFC	so you can have your defaults too	Jun 05 20:56
schestowitz	Like Gates takes care of him kids..	Jun 05 20:56
schestowitz	*his	Jun 05 20:56
DaemonFC	XP only recognizes Standard User and Administrator, it has no concept of per-user settings or file and registry virtualization	Jun 05 20:57
DaemonFC	so a multi-user XP system everyone is always stepping on everyone elses toes	Jun 05 20:57
DaemonFC	I've always said they should have a "Lock These File Associations" button	Jun 05 20:58
MinceR	so in vista you can finally have per-user settings, per-user systemwide settings and really systemwide settings	Jun 05 20:58
DaemonFC	so that nothing can even ask if you've already made a decision about something	Jun 05 20:58
MinceR	the train wreck called "registry" just got a whole lot more stupid.	Jun 05 20:58
DaemonFC	MinceR: Yes	Jun 05 20:58
DaemonFC	more complicated	Jun 05 20:58
MinceR	this is the kind of achievement they can actually manage	Jun 05 20:59
DaemonFC	because now if I turn off UAC, it can't redirect my programs to their virtual registry stores	Jun 05 20:59
DaemonFC	so it uses the old system registry approach	Jun 05 20:59
MinceR	so it gets better	Jun 05 20:59
DaemonFC	and I lose a lot of settings	Jun 05 20:59
DaemonFC	maybe even license codes for programs	Jun 05 20:59
DaemonFC	unless I turn UAC back on	Jun 05 20:59
MinceR	you either get annoyed by UAC or you get the lack of the illusion of security _and_ your users step on each others' toes	Jun 05 20:59
DaemonFC	no	Jun 05 21:00
DaemonFC	you can keep UAC on with no elevation dialog	Jun 05 21:00
DaemonFC	and still get file and registry virtualization	Jun 05 21:00
MinceR	the only reason windows is worth knowing is so that you can laugh how incredibly, utterly stupid it is	Jun 05 21:00
DaemonFC	that way you get the best of both worlds, no nag screen, and per-user settings	Jun 05 21:00
DaemonFC	UAC file and registry virtualization is both an improvement over XP but a frustrating level of complication	Jun 05 21:01
schestowitz	Stupid Google headline: Danger: Mac and Linux builds available < http://blog.chromium.org/2009/06/danger-mac-and-linux-builds-available.html >	Jun 05 21:02
DaemonFC	and can cause inconsistencies and confusion if a user switches it off	Jun 05 21:02
MinceR	it's just another level of hacks built on an old design flaw	Jun 05 21:02
DaemonFC	yes, it is a hack	Jun 05 21:02
DaemonFC	but a yummy delicious hack that lets me not have my settings nuked by another user	Jun 05 21:02
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 21:02
MinceR	lol	Jun 05 21:02
MinceR	now you see that's how one knows a fanboy	Jun 05 21:03
schestowitz	Berners-Lee: We no longer fully understand the web < http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227111.400-tim-bernerslee-i-no-longer-understand-the-web.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news >	Jun 05 21:03
schestowitz	Video: The Umbrella Men of Tiananmen < http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/05/video_the_umbrella_men_of_tiananmen.php >. Nice music...	Jun 05 21:04
MinceR	the worst thing about those kinds of hacks is that they're going to stay around as long as windows exists, as parts of the core system	Jun 05 21:06
MinceR	and they'll accumulate	Jun 05 21:06
DaemonFC	hmmmm	Jun 05 21:07
DaemonFC	WordPerfect can import ODF and OOXML	Jun 05 21:07
DaemonFC	but you have to save as Word Perfect files or DOC	Jun 05 21:08
MinceR	wordperfect isn't dead yet?	Jun 05 21:08
MinceR	i thought m$ killed them already	Jun 05 21:09
DaemonFC	oh, you can convert to PDF too	Jun 05 21:09
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 21:09
MinceR	yay	Jun 05 21:09
schestowitz	"NHS patients may be ‘refused treatment’ for opting-out of electronic care record" < http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/government-law/public-sector/news/index.cfm?newsid=15042 > It's like extortion	Jun 05 21:09
DaemonFC	MinceR: I've got WordPerfect Office and Corel Draw	Jun 05 21:10
DaemonFC	both are pretty good	Jun 05 21:10
schestowitz	KDE4 for Windows is put on the ice and this is good news for GNU/Linux IMHO http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/kde_for_windows_in_trouble	Jun 05 21:11
DaemonFC	Corel still makes some decent stuff	Jun 05 21:11
MinceR	corel still exists? :>	Jun 05 21:12
schestowitz	What does it make now?	Jun 05 21:12
DaemonFC	all kindso of stuff	Jun 05 21:12
schestowitz	What percentage of open-access journals charge publication fees? < http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/pamphlet/ >	Jun 05 21:12
schestowitz	name it	Jun 05 21:12
DaemonFC	there's their office suite, professional grphics tools, a blue-ray/upconverting DVD player	Jun 05 21:12
schestowitz	What? GIMP competittor	Jun 05 21:12
schestowitz	??	Jun 05 21:13
DaemonFC	no, much better than GIMP	Jun 05 21:13
schestowitz	I bet the GIMP has leapfrogged them in many areas by now	Jun 05 21:13
schestowitz	OOo too	Jun 05 21:13
schestowitz	They have some zombie userbase	Jun 05 21:13
schestowitz	Like secretaries that are WordPerfectheads	Jun 05 21:13
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corel_Draw	Jun 05 21:13
MinceR	i prefer those to m$officeheads :>	Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz	http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/gb/en/Content/1150905725000	Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz	CorelDraw emphasis	Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz	A colleague of mine uses it	Jun 05 21:14
fewa	i remember PSP	Jun 05 21:14
fewa	great program	Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz	MinceR: No! :-)	Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz	Wrong to use "heads"	Jun 05 21:14
schestowitz	It implies existence of brain	Jun 05 21:15
MinceR	heads can still be empty	Jun 05 21:15
MinceR	they often are	Jun 05 21:15
schestowitz	I uses Corel Draw IIRC	Jun 05 21:15
schestowitz	*used	Jun 05 21:15
MinceR	i played around with coreldraw	Jun 05 21:15
fewa	paint shop pro pwns	Jun 05 21:16
fewa	pwnd* cd	Jun 05 21:16
DaemonFC	yeah it does	Jun 05 21:16
DaemonFC	it runs in Wine too	Jun 05 21:16
MinceR	paint shop pro was fine until around version 6	Jun 05 21:16
MinceR	when the installer decided it won't install	Jun 05 21:17
MinceR	and then i decided to try gimp instead	Jun 05 21:17
MinceR	and then i didn't want to use psp ever after :>	Jun 05 21:17
fewa	im talking historical	Jun 05 21:17
fewa	not now	Jun 05 21:18
MinceR	well, this was a pretty long time ago	Jun 05 21:18
fewa	yeah i never tried gimp back then	Jun 05 21:18
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schestowitz	I started using the GIMP just 7 years ago	Jun 05 21:22
MinceR	NeoPaint was cool too	Jun 05 21:23
ThistleWeb	schestowitz, have you taken a break since you started? I feel whacked staying up for 2 days, but damn, 7 years is hella impressive	Jun 05 21:24
fewa	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk	Jun 05 21:24
schestowitz	mocoNews - Industry Moves: Symbian Beefs Up Exec Team With Dietmar Tallroth And Larry Berkin http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/01/AR2009060102359.html	Jun 05 21:24
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: I started in 2001 or 2002	Jun 05 21:25
schestowitz	I used Enlightenment back then	Jun 05 21:25
fewa	"Now we can take this Ferrari and paste it right into windows paint."	Jun 05 21:25
schestowitz	Had to create some logos... didn't even know how to draw lines (SHIFT)	Jun 05 21:25
ThistleWeb	I tried Enlightenement a few times but it never quite grabbed me	Jun 05 21:25
schestowitz	Kids at schools should be taught the GIMP	Jun 05 21:26
schestowitz	De facto standards	Jun 05 21:26
schestowitz	Instead they are made customers of some drek company	Jun 05 21:26
ThistleWeb	they should be taught image manipulation, by being exposed to various apps which do that	Jun 05 21:26
MinceR	there isn't necessary enough time to expose them to multiple apps for one purpose	Jun 05 21:26
ThistleWeb	learn the general principles, so they can find the functions they need in any app	Jun 05 21:27
fewa	yep, with tax-deductable <s>"donations"</s> opium	Jun 05 21:27
MinceR	but if it's got to be one, it should be a FLOSS app	Jun 05 21:27
ThistleWeb	Microsoft is de facto standards	Jun 05 21:27
ThistleWeb	by weight of market share	Jun 05 21:27
ThistleWeb	so really they are learning de facto standards, not real ones	Jun 05 21:28
MinceR	(linked from a BN article linked here earlier) http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25434/1090/	Jun 05 21:28
MinceR	i wonder if this would cause opensuse to detach from novell eventually	Jun 05 21:28
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MinceR	well, if the student is bright enough, he can learn image manipulation on any app that's capable enough	Jun 05 21:29
MinceR	but if he isn't, he should at least know an app he can get and use without limitations or payment	Jun 05 21:29
ThistleWeb	I do wonder how long it'll be before the opensuse devs finally admit that being associated with Novell is a weight around their necks	Jun 05 21:29
ThistleWeb	for most users, they have many options of stuff that will work for them, they just dont know that	Jun 05 21:30
ThistleWeb	abiword, writer, star office writer and ms word will ALL do the basics that 99% of users need, the functions are all similarly named, similarly laid out etc	Jun 05 21:31
MinceR	then at least the one they're shown should be one that doesn't enslave them to the megacorps, as long as it's possible	Jun 05 21:32
ThistleWeb	by learning generic word processing, they can switch from one app to another with the skills to adapt	Jun 05 21:32
MinceR	also, state-funded education should not be allowed to function as an advertisement for any business	Jun 05 21:32
ThistleWeb	companies like microsoft and cisco have their own cults in the form of certs	Jun 05 21:32
MinceR	even privately funded education should at least make it explicit that they in fact do advertise (and are thus partial)	Jun 05 21:33
ThistleWeb	yep	Jun 05 21:33
schestowitz	ROTFL http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-cms/an-open-source-story-evolution-of-the-umbraco-cms-004635.php open source.. .NET dependent	Jun 05 21:33
schestowitz	Open source ceases to mean much..	Jun 05 21:33
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DaemonFC	Corel Draw makes sense for me though	Jun 05 21:35
DaemonFC	since I can get it much cheaper than Paint Shop Pro	Jun 05 21:35
DaemonFC	educational licenses	Jun 05 21:35
ThistleWeb	pft, what's wrong with emacs?	Jun 05 21:35
DaemonFC	Microsoft is not the only company that does those	Jun 05 21:35
DaemonFC	but Apple is by far the stingiest	Jun 05 21:36
MinceR	emacs is a fine operating system, all it lacks is a good editor	Jun 05 21:36
schestowitz	MinceR: watch how Jo Shills trolls Sam	Jun 05 21:36
ThistleWeb	lol	Jun 05 21:36
schestowitz	He created an account some days ago	Jun 05 21:36
DaemonFC	hmmm, this is interesting	Jun 05 21:46
tessier	Someone was just talking about google being a verb. To which I just replied: "Nobody ever says 'Let me Microsoft that...' unless they are talking about totally fucking something up." Hahaha	Jun 05 21:46
DaemonFC	I just noticed a Protexis Licensing Service running	Jun 05 21:46
DaemonFC	apparently Corel slips that in with their products now	Jun 05 21:46
balzac	tessier: hilarious	Jun 05 21:47
balzac	'Let me Microsoft that' - quote of the day	Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFC	The PSIService provides the minimal required administrative access to Corel product licensing and registration information in accordance with the new Windows Vista (tm) operating system guidelines. This service does not access any data other than the Corel product licensing and registration information, and it will not have any negative effects on your computer.	Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFC	Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.	Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFC	Thank You,	Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFC	David T.	Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFC	Corel Customer Support Services	Jun 05 21:47
DaemonFC	hmmmm	Jun 05 21:48
balzac	But it's lame to say "google" as a verb replacing the word "search"	Jun 05 21:48
DaemonFC	backdoor anyone?	Jun 05 21:48
ThistleWeb	ya know I figured out why the term "cancer" came to Ballmer when he made that statement ages ago about Linux being a cancer	Jun 05 21:48
ThistleWeb	cancer cells grow, they morph other cells into more of themselves by force. This seems to be the business model of Microsoft when taking over a competitor	Jun 05 21:49
ThistleWeb	try a takeover, if there are a few disenting voices ont he board saying no, you slander, smear them	Jun 05 21:49
ThistleWeb	get them replaced with people loyal to Microsoft and take them over from the inside	Jun 05 21:50
ThistleWeb	turn them into agents for Microsoft's agenda	Jun 05 21:50
ThistleWeb	sounds like a cancer to me	Jun 05 21:50
ThistleWeb	works for governemts, ISO's and other organisations	Jun 05 21:51
ThistleWeb	so he's right in that IT can be likened to cancer, he just forgot to include the mirror in his wrath	Jun 05 21:51
MinceR	will "bing" be the verb meaning to rebrand something in a desperate attempt to get attention?	Jun 05 21:52
MinceR	as for diseases and such, m$ is a parasite that almost killed the IT industry	Jun 05 21:53
ThistleWeb	they do have a lot to answer for	Jun 05 21:53
ThistleWeb	one thing they have done, is get people afraid of their PCs	Jun 05 21:54
ThistleWeb	when something crashes, people are convinced into believing it's THIER fault	Jun 05 21:54
ThistleWeb	something THEY did	Jun 05 21:54
ThistleWeb	and that sub-par is acceptable	Jun 05 21:54
DaemonFC	http://www.protexis.com/support/support_PSIService.htm#link1	Jun 05 21:54
DaemonFC	Protexis posts a FAQ about their DRM system service	Jun 05 21:55
ThistleWeb	of course, when you control which products are on shop shelves, you can keep people convinced that Windows and their PC is one and the same thing, inseparatble	Jun 05 21:55
MinceR	it worked on crApple	Jun 05 21:56
MinceR	they do believe those are the same thing	Jun 05 21:56
DaemonFC	ThistleWebhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsJryWc5XE&feature=related	Jun 05 21:56
DaemonFC	err	Jun 05 21:56
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsJryWc5XE&feature=related	Jun 05 21:56
DaemonFC	heh	Jun 05 21:56
ThistleWeb	which is what?	Jun 05 21:57
DaemonFC	Rick Astley of course	Jun 05 22:00
ThistleWeb	lol	Jun 05 22:00
DaemonFC	quite possibly the worst thing to ever come out of the UK	Jun 05 22:00
DaemonFC	if one can measure these things	Jun 05 22:00
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 22:00
ThistleWeb	I dunno, there's a dude called Gordon who must be high in that race right now	Jun 05 22:01
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ThistleWeb	the only one on the planet who thinks he's doin a great job	Jun 05 22:01
DaemonFC	well, and so it begins	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	Bing is not advertising spyware	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	err	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	*now	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	they're advertising fake versions of Spybot Search & Destroy	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	that demand money	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	(it's freeware)	Jun 05 22:02
DaemonFC	http://www.bing.com/search?q=spybot+S%26D&form=QBRE	Jun 05 22:03
ThistleWeb	of course, it's all about Windows, and part of the full Windows experience is being infected and paying for tools to clean and protect it	Jun 05 22:03
DaemonFC	http://www.google.com/search?q=spybot+S%26D&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1	Jun 05 22:03
DaemonFC	but Google advertises the same spyware	Jun 05 22:03
ThistleWeb	have they disabled the autoplayng of vids?	Jun 05 22:04
DaemonFC	nah, plenty of free antivirus/anti spyware suites out there	Jun 05 22:04
DaemonFC	in Bing video search you mean?	Jun 05 22:04
ThistleWeb	yep	Jun 05 22:04
DaemonFC	not that I'm aware	Jun 05 22:04
DaemonFC	I rather like that	Jun 05 22:04
ThistleWeb	they got a roasting for it shoiwng porn there	Jun 05 22:04
DaemonFC	SWEET	Jun 05 22:05
ThistleWeb	bypassing any other filters	Jun 05 22:05
DaemonFC	see shcestowitz	Jun 05 22:05
DaemonFC	Bing is the bestest thing ever	Jun 05 22:05
DaemonFC	I can has pr0nz	Jun 05 22:05
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 22:05
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ThistleWeb	it's a good family company in the purest sense, right down to the making of a new member of the family at their earliest visible age......as cum	Jun 05 22:06
DaemonFC	yes, such wonderful life education	Jun 05 22:07
DaemonFC	I didn't know you got pregnant by drinking that stuff	Jun 05 22:07
DaemonFC	learn something new every day I say	Jun 05 22:07
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 22:07
ThistleWeb	lol	Jun 05 22:07
*DaemonFC slaps schestowitz with Bing Bukkake Search		Jun 05 22:08
ThistleWeb	wonder how long it'll be before bing is added to the urban dictionary	Jun 05 22:09
ThistleWeb	bing - the act of window dressing a turd	Jun 05 22:09
ThistleWeb	using shit instead of clay to create a statue	Jun 05 22:10
DaemonFC	Spybot S&D's Internet Explorer immunization list has swelled to almost 100,000 items	Jun 05 22:12
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 05 22:12
ThistleWeb	lol	Jun 05 22:13
DaemonFC	Microsoft made a way of blacklisting particular versions of IE plugins	Jun 05 22:13
DaemonFC	so this exploits that by blacklisting known malicious plugins and BHOs	Jun 05 22:14
DaemonFC	the problem is that the list can only GROW	Jun 05 22:14
DaemonFC	5 years ago, it only had to add less than 10,000 entries	Jun 05 22:14
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 22:14
DaemonFC	as soon as you remove the blacklisting for anything, there could be a page or two out there that still has it	Jun 05 22:15
ThistleWeb	last I looked at IE plugins, I wasn't impressed. anything remotely usefull was trialware, the free stuff was all fun but pointless shit	Jun 05 22:19
schestowitz	I've never been to that BingTHing, but I've seen screenshots	Jun 05 22:19
ThistleWeb	looked like Microsoft saw that plugins were a HUGE pull for users to Firefox, wanted to add theirs, in their own "gotta make money from it" way	Jun 05 22:19
schestowitz	Others went to bing. Rather than just see screenshots they get to see cumshots... without leaving the site even.	Jun 05 22:20
ThistleWeb	maybe letting the vids play and giving a porn bypass is an intentional trick to get users who want porn and are blocked in other serach engines like Google	Jun 05 22:21
DaemonFC	hmmmm	Jun 05 22:21
DaemonFC	lmao	Jun 05 22:22
DaemonFC	it does play porn in the Bing frame	Jun 05 22:22
DaemonFC	oh wow	Jun 05 22:23
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=OpenDocument&diff=294333975&oldid=prev	Jun 05 22:23
DaemonFC	Bing is a great porn search engine too	Jun 05 22:23
schestowitz	The Shafters keep removoing (censoring) Wikipedia	Jun 05 22:23
DaemonFC	UHHHHM!!!!!	Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFC	schestowitz!!!!	Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFC	uhhhh	Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFC	there's porn hidden in YOUTUBE!!!	Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFC	XXX stuff	Jun 05 22:24
DaemonFC	!	Jun 05 22:24
ThistleWeb	so thats why the term "tube" was chosen	Jun 05 22:24
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schestowitz	The Mint prints more money so that the future generations will pay heavier debt and people will carry on passing money...	Jun 05 22:31
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/us_jobs_report_may09/	Jun 05 22:31
schestowitz	Here's from Wikipedia:	Jun 05 22:32
schestowitz	"Sabayon Linux or SabayonLinux, (formerly known as RR4 Linux/RR64 Linux), is a Gentoo-based Linux distribution"	Jun 05 22:32
schestowitz	It sounds to me like the "Gentoo User" troll tried to wash his socks, but didn't do very good job of it. ;)	Jun 05 22:32
schestowitz	"Sabayon User" troll..	Jun 05 22:33
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schestowitz	Report: Bill Gates buys Buffalo Bill's historic Wyoming ranch < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Bill_Gates_buys_historic_Wyoming_ranch_47051137.html >	Jun 05 22:35
schestowitz	Hey, GOb	Jun 05 22:35
_Goblin	hi msging from my netbook!	Jun 05 22:35
schestowitz	Linpus?	Jun 05 22:37
_Goblin	no	Jun 05 22:37
schestowitz	Ubuntu?	Jun 05 22:37
_Goblin	xp	Jun 05 22:37
schestowitz	gasp	Jun 05 22:37
_Goblin	sorry all	Jun 05 22:37
schestowitz	Acer?	Jun 05 22:38
_Goblin	its the only one compat with the 3 dongle...i need acess next week when im on holiday	Jun 05 22:38
DaemonFC	I'm seriously considering just going back to Fedora when 11 is out	Jun 05 22:38
_Goblin	its an acer aspire one...	Jun 05 22:38
_Goblin	and god its slow	Jun 05 22:38
DaemonFC	the reasons I slapped Windows on this system just a month ago are no longer really the case	Jun 05 22:38
ThistleWeb	that'd be xp for ya	Jun 05 22:39
_Goblin	i shudder to think what vista would be like	Jun 05 22:39
DaemonFC	in what way?	Jun 05 22:39
_Goblin	speed...	Jun 05 22:39
DaemonFC	meh, it depends	Jun 05 22:40
_Goblin	if xp is slow...god help vista on a netbook	Jun 05 22:40
DaemonFC	on a decent system, it can beat XP	Jun 05 22:40
DaemonFC	but on an older system, definitely XP would be faster	Jun 05 22:40
_Goblin	and im even using ie at the moment	Jun 05 22:40
schestowitz	_Goblin: wait, i saw an howto earlier..	Jun 05 22:40
_Goblin	i feel dirty	Jun 05 22:40
DaemonFC	Vista is more bloated but XP is getting too old to deal with modern hardware	Jun 05 22:40
DaemonFC	is really what it comes to	Jun 05 22:40
schestowitz	Here: https://www.montanalinux.org/acer-aspire-one-d150-review.html	Jun 05 22:41
_Goblin	thanks....ill ask for that link again since Im saving my money by using my desktop in a second...dont need this netbook until next week.	Jun 05 22:42
_Goblin	ill log off	Jun 05 22:42
DaemonFC	no matter what version of Windows you get it will either be way expensive and do a lot of things you don't need it to, or if you cheap out then there's going to be a lot of stuff you need it to do and it can't	Jun 05 22:42
_Goblin	back shortly.	Jun 05 22:42
DaemonFC	the whole point is to lead you to the version that does a lot of stuff you don't need	Jun 05 22:42
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MinceR	vista fails at hw support too	Jun 05 22:43
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schestowitz	No, it's the user's fault	Jun 05 22:43
schestowitz	For buying rubbish h/w	Jun 05 22:44
*schestowitz looks for the Pirillo vid		Jun 05 22:44
schestowitz	DaemonFC would find it faster	Jun 05 22:44
DaemonFC	well, if you buy no name hardware you're kind of asking for it no matter what operating system you use	Jun 05 22:44
DaemonFC	I mean some of it will work fine, but on the whole, it tends to not be the case	Jun 05 22:45
ThistleWeb	does IE 7 or 8 support transparent png files yet?	Jun 05 22:45
DaemonFC	yes	Jun 05 22:45
DaemonFC	both do	Jun 05 22:45
ThistleWeb	both?	Jun 05 22:45
ThistleWeb	ahh cool	Jun 05 22:46
schestowitz	"Cool..."	Jun 05 22:47
DaemonFC	IE 8 isn't exactly great, but it's much better than getting stuck with IE 6	Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz	Catching up with like 10 years ago... maybe 7	Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz	That defines Microsoft	Jun 05 22:47
DaemonFC	which is why I'm shocked that anyone uses IE 6	Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz	Wow! Tabs!	Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz	Wow! transparent window borders!	Jun 05 22:47
MinceR	Yesterday's Technology At Tomorrow's Price!	Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz	Yes	Jun 05 22:47
MinceR	Microsoft - The Trailing Edge Of Technology!	Jun 05 22:47
schestowitz	/s/EDGE/EDGI/	Jun 05 22:48
MinceR	Where In The Past Do You Want To Go Today?	Jun 05 22:48
DaemonFC	I've benchmarked IE 8 and taken a look at the rendering engine features, and found it to be on par with Firefox 2.x	Jun 05 22:48
schestowitz	I.e. they force it upon you	Jun 05 22:48
DaemonFC	for the most part	Jun 05 22:48
schestowitz	If you don't want it, they'll dump it on you	Jun 05 22:48
DaemonFC	IE has never exactly been cutting edge stuff	Jun 05 22:48
MinceR	or they'll bribe your government to force it on you	Jun 05 22:49
MinceR	or they'll bribe your government to take your money and give it to them	Jun 05 22:49
DaemonFC	they've introduced a few neat things that caught on	Jun 05 22:49
DaemonFC	but that's the exception	Jun 05 22:49
ThistleWeb	I found tabs awkward to start with, then grew to insist on my browser using them	Jun 05 22:49
MinceR	i didn't get Opera's MDI interface when it was new, then i found tabs indispensable	Jun 05 22:49
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DaemonFC	schestowitz: I was toying around with sdhelper.dll	Jun 05 22:50
ThistleWeb	when IE had no serious competition, all complaints, feature requests could be ignored, when firefox turned into a serious competitor eating their lunch they were forced to blow the dust off the code and try to do something to stem the exodus	Jun 05 22:50
DaemonFC	it's part of Spybot S&D, it loads it into Internet Explorer as a plug in	Jun 05 22:51
DaemonFC	that way it can restrict plugins based on a blacklist it totes around :P\	Jun 05 22:51
ThistleWeb	for a rushed effort, IE7 ain't too bad, at least it's better if your work insists on only using IE	Jun 05 22:51
DaemonFC	keeping out at least "known" spyware	Jun 05 22:51
DaemonFC	there's a Firefox version of sdhelper too	Jun 05 22:51
DaemonFC	ThistleWeb: You can also use SVG in Internet Explorer	Jun 05 22:52
DaemonFC	but it requires an extension	Jun 05 22:52
MinceR	if your work insists on only using IE, time to look for a new one.	Jun 05 22:52
ThistleWeb	yeah	Jun 05 22:52
DaemonFC	why the hell do I care what they use?	Jun 05 22:53
DaemonFC	It's their money	Jun 05 22:53
DaemonFC	http://www.ieaddons.com/en/details/Time_Savers/Adobe_SVG_Viewer/	Jun 05 22:53
MinceR	ooh, it's from adobe	Jun 05 22:53
MinceR	if your browser isn't crap enough, why not add something from adobe into it?	Jun 05 22:54
ThistleWeb	never bothered with svg yet	Jun 05 22:54
MinceR	oh wait, it is crap enough	Jun 05 22:54
DaemonFC	it's not really that huge	Jun 05 22:55
DaemonFC	it's like a 1 meg plugin that renders SVG	Jun 05 22:55
MinceR	it's not the size that makes it crap	Jun 05 22:55
MinceR	it's adobe's complete inability to write usable code	Jun 05 22:55
MinceR	if it's anything like flash, it takes ages to render trivial shapes	Jun 05 22:56
MinceR	and if it's anything like reader, there's one security hole for each line of code	Jun 05 22:56
ThistleWeb	the key is that if it's good enough, and has enough of the mind share it will be a success	Jun 05 22:56
DaemonFC	no, it's not slow either	Jun 05 22:57
DaemonFC	there are several other IE plug ins that add SVG support	Jun 05 23:00
schestowitz	hey, mib_ymju38	Jun 05 23:01
mib_ymju38	hi	Jun 05 23:04
mib_ymju38	got a pm question for you	Jun 05 23:04
schestowitz	BN is swamped with Microsoft trolls today	Jun 05 23:06
schestowitz	mib_ymju38: does it need to be private?	Jun 05 23:06
mib_ymju38	Well, maybe not	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	All the fun is here :-)	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	we love transparency	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	<mib_ymju38> Hopefully this doesn't sound like too stupid of a question, but here goes	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	<mib_ymju38> The MS Xbox division is still operating at a loss, right?	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	Yes, as per last report	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	April	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	In July it's likely to be the same	Jun 05 23:07
schestowitz	Thie evening I found out that another XBoxer (manager) jumped ship	Jun 05 23:08
mib_ymju38	So, (realizing that anything done would probably be in the noise anyway), if someone were deciding between an Xbox and a PS3 and really didn't care much either way, would it be possible to actually do more harm to MS by getting the Xbox instead?	Jun 05 23:08
ThistleWeb	a single person buying an xbox will be like a drop in the ocean in how much you could hurt Microsoft	Jun 05 23:09
mib_ymju38	hence the parenthesis part	Jun 05 23:09
ThistleWeb	they do lose money, but the effect on them is miniscule	Jun 05 23:09
MinceR	002016 <@schestowitz> BN is swamped with Microsoft trolls today	Jun 05 23:10
MinceR	well duh, you don't ban them	Jun 05 23:10
schestowitz	I can't	Jun 05 23:10
schestowitz	it's comments	Jun 05 23:10
schestowitz	And we never deleted comments	Jun 05 23:10
schestowitz	We're not going to	Jun 05 23:10
schestowitz	The trolls change names	Jun 05 23:10
schestowitz	Otherwise I just know to ignore them	Jun 05 23:11
Balrog	schestowitz: do you delete smap comments?	Jun 05 23:11
MinceR	you could ban ip addresses	Jun 05 23:11
Balrog	spam *	Jun 05 23:11
ThistleWeb	I'd buy a console on the selection of games available and the playability of the console / games	Jun 05 23:11
Balrog	MinceR: bad for transparency	Jun 05 23:11
ThistleWeb	fair play, the 360 does look nice	Jun 05 23:11
*MinceR shrugs		Jun 05 23:11
schestowitz	mib_ymju38: buying an XBox helps MS	Jun 05 23:11
MinceR	one's got to deal with trolls, flooders and spammers	Jun 05 23:11
Balrog	ThistleWeb: RROD	Jun 05 23:11
schestowitz	It helps them sell themselves to devs and shops	Jun 05 23:11
ThistleWeb	Balrog, I know	Jun 05 23:11
schestowitz	No sales->Xbox360 dies earlier	Jun 05 23:11
Balrog	the xbox 360 of someone I know died recently	Jun 05 23:12
MinceR	i wouldn't buy a console because consoles suck	Jun 05 23:12
ThistleWeb	any console is a trojan, they make money when you buy accesories and games	Jun 05 23:12
MinceR	well, at least wii and ds have something innovative about them	Jun 05 23:12
schestowitz	DaemonFC had his XBox die like 5 times	Jun 05 23:12
Balrog	the wii's OS isn't too innovative	Jun 05 23:12
MinceR	that isn't	Jun 05 23:12
mib_ymju38	that's mostly why I asked. The PS3 looks like a better buy (better quality hardware and the console library close enough between the two)	Jun 05 23:12
schestowitz	InnOTvative	Jun 05 23:12
MinceR	it's controllers are	Jun 05 23:12
schestowitz	Silly words	Jun 05 23:13
schestowitz	Innovvation	Jun 05 23:13
schestowitz	R&D	Jun 05 23:13
schestowitz	All buzzwords	Jun 05 23:13
MinceR	the four-letter word of the industry? :>	Jun 05 23:13
Balrog	http://hackmii.com/2009/02/why-the-wii-will-never-get-any-better/	Jun 05 23:13
schestowitz	For investors	Jun 05 23:13
Balrog	read it ...	Jun 05 23:13
DaemonFC	schestowitz: I won't even pretend to like anything about the XBOX 360	Jun 05 23:13
DaemonFC	total disaster	Jun 05 23:13
schestowitz	Says a MS fanboi	Jun 05 23:13
MinceR	must be really bad then	Jun 05 23:13
MinceR	or they didn't offer enough money yet	Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFC	it's awful	Jun 05 23:14
ThistleWeb	I grew out of gaming a while back, my PS2 and GameCube sit gathering dust, they get the occasional 5 min blast now and then	Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFC	it's extortion and then the fucking thing overheats	Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFC	I mean the life expectancy for a 360 is about 3 months	Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFC	seriously, that bad	Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFC	and not just talking about 1 that died	Jun 05 23:14
MinceR	"life sucks and then you die"	Jun 05 23:14
DaemonFC	thats the average life between 6 consoles	Jun 05 23:14
Balrog	ThistleWeb: I find the handhelds more versatile	Jun 05 23:15
ThistleWeb	MinceR, that could be a motto for a fly before it;s caught in a vacuum cleaner	Jun 05 23:15
MinceR	it's just life on earth	Jun 05 23:15
MinceR	and the life cycle of xboxes :>	Jun 05 23:15
ThistleWeb	Balrog, I can't be assed witha tiny screen	Jun 05 23:15
*mib_ymju38 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")		Jun 05 23:17
ThistleWeb	I couldn't be classed as a gamer anymore though, so things like the 360 looked cool in the 5 mins I played on in a store, dunno what it'd be like to live with one	Jun 05 23:17
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ThistleWeb	given that I hardly play games now, I couldn't justify spending money on any new console	Jun 05 23:17
DaemonFC	Microsoft isn't just pissing off the knuckle dragging Walmart customers that buy a shitty emachine	Jun 05 23:17
DaemonFC	they're fucking with people that have money and demand quality	Jun 05 23:18
MinceR	those people demand quality from the wrong company	Jun 05 23:18
DaemonFC	it was probably a lot easier to please customers when they never made any pretenses about being about quality	Jun 05 23:19
DaemonFC	and just specialized in XP on emachines at Walmart	Jun 05 23:19
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 05 23:19
DaemonFC	this rejection of Microsoft really only grew legs when they started charging more for Vista and added features to try and take on Apple that those shitty emachines at Walmart couldn't handle	Jun 05 23:21
ThistleWeb	what is Microsoft's latest plan for Windows 7 netbooks? If it needs approx the same resources as Vista it won't fit	Jun 05 23:21
DaemonFC	customers weren't really aware that there was anything wrong with their Celeron and 256 megs of RAM til they tried to load Vista on it	Jun 05 23:21
_goblin	back...	Jun 05 23:21
ThistleWeb	I believe they dropped the 3 app limit because of partner feedback	Jun 05 23:22
_goblin	i'll tell you something, that Notebook experience with Windows that is advertised on TV is certainly not the one Ive just had.	Jun 05 23:22
_goblin	just clicking on the start menu could invoke half a minute of HD fitting while the system did....something	Jun 05 23:23
ThistleWeb	Apple got slapped for misleading net experience TV advert, the ad showed a fast, snappy surfing which iPhone users didn't get close to	Jun 05 23:23
MinceR	ThistleWeb: the new plan is same as the old plan: lies, lies and some more lies	Jun 05 23:24
_goblin	its only because Im desperate to stay online during my holiday that I paid 200 quid for it.	Jun 05 23:24
_goblin	so to everyone here, what do you reckon the best browser for an XP crippled Netbook would be?	Jun 05 23:24
DaemonFC	I'm still encoding AAC and messing around with tagging	Jun 05 23:24
ThistleWeb	if Windows 7 wont fit they have no choice but to keep XP alive even longer	Jun 05 23:24
MinceR	_goblin: opera	Jun 05 23:24
DaemonFC	I got the encoder settings down to where I can't tell the AAC from the CD	Jun 05 23:25
_goblin	right...	Jun 05 23:25
ThistleWeb	other than cede the netbook market to Linux, which they will NEVER do	Jun 05 23:25
_goblin	opera it is...	Jun 05 23:25
DaemonFC	this is takinf forever :P	Jun 05 23:25
_goblin	I'll give it a go.	Jun 05 23:25
DaemonFC	*taking\	Jun 05 23:25
_goblin	the only good thing about XP is that I will still be able to run IRSSI since theres a Windows binary.	Jun 05 23:26
DaemonFC	it's not a Windows binary	Jun 05 23:27
DaemonFC	technically it is and it isn't	Jun 05 23:27
DaemonFC	it depends on Cygwin	Jun 05 23:27
_goblin	ah...	Jun 05 23:27
_goblin	just downloaded the installer to transfer to the netbook.	Jun 05 23:27
DaemonFC	user mode implementation of a UNIX-like environment in Windows	Jun 05 23:27
DaemonFC	it's better to use Services For UNIX if you can	Jun 05 23:28
MinceR	_goblin: you know you could install linux on it, right? :>	Jun 05 23:28
DaemonFC	cause it's kernel-mode	Jun 05 23:28
MinceR	and kernel-mode means easier to crash!	Jun 05 23:28
MinceR	it's all the rage in m$ land	Jun 05 23:28
MinceR	let's put it all in kernel space and claim it's zomg-fast	Jun 05 23:28
_goblin	Mincer: Yeah but its the broadband dongle...its incompatible with Linux...	Jun 05 23:28
MinceR	even though it isn't	Jun 05 23:28
MinceR	_goblin: get another then :>	Jun 05 23:28
DaemonFC	MinceR: Vista actually emphasises keeping things in user moder wherever possible	Jun 05 23:28
_goblin	Yesterday I bought the Linux netbook, today I had to replace with XP.	Jun 05 23:29
DaemonFC	there's more third party kernel mode crap running in a typical Linux setup	Jun 05 23:29
DaemonFC	if you have an Nvidia card, you already have more	Jun 05 23:29
MinceR	DaemonFC: bullshit	Jun 05 23:29
DaemonFC	nope	Jun 05 23:29
ThistleWeb	_goblin, it may just be incompatible with Lunpus, it may work with another netbook distro	Jun 05 23:29
DaemonFC	all of the display driver has to be kernel mode in Linux	Jun 05 23:29
DaemonFC	Vista runs most of the video driver in the user mode framework	Jun 05 23:30
_goblin	I thought of that...rang 3...they said no...Rang Comet they said the same...	Jun 05 23:30
_goblin	even running wine (to boot the software on the dongle) didn't work	Jun 05 23:30
MinceR	vista also runs most of the gui itself in kernel mode	Jun 05 23:30
DaemonFC	if your video driver crashes on Linux or Windows XP, they'll take down the OS	Jun 05 23:30
DaemonFC	in Vista they probably just reset the graphics system	Jun 05 23:30
_goblin	thats why I gave up and simply replaced it with an XP one....I'm going away tomorrow...	Jun 05 23:30
MinceR	probably, right	Jun 05 23:30
MinceR	as usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.	Jun 05 23:30
ThistleWeb	_goblin, I used to work in Comet, I know the level of staff training they get, I know the concern they have with giving customers good accurate advice	Jun 05 23:30
MinceR	just wild guesses, speculation	Jun 05 23:31
MinceR	and m$ advertisements.	Jun 05 23:31
ThistleWeb	I'd take their opinions with a pinch of salt	Jun 05 23:31
_goblin	yeah customer services said they should never have sold me it.	Jun 05 23:31
DaemonFC	no, Linux video drivers are a real nightmare	Jun 05 23:31
MinceR	of course they are	Jun 05 23:31
DaemonFC	there's at least a million ways a video error can crash a Linux system	Jun 05 23:31
_goblin	DaemonFC: Ive never had a problem.	Jun 05 23:31
MinceR	the gpu vendors make them	Jun 05 23:31
DaemonFC	and I think I've hit all of them	Jun 05 23:31
MinceR	it's just like when the hw vendor makes a windows driver	Jun 05 23:31
ThistleWeb	every OEM is a Windows OEM, some have this little oddity on a few models called Linux	Jun 05 23:32
MinceR	at least on linux most drivers are written and checked by sane people who actually know and care about sw development	Jun 05 23:32
MinceR	the official drivers for my hauppauge tuner card keep coming to mind	Jun 05 23:32
MinceR	and all the shiny crap you need to make a multimedia keyboard and multi-button mouse work	Jun 05 23:33
DaemonFC	heh	Jun 05 23:33
DaemonFC	if you say so	Jun 05 23:33
DaemonFC	I'd refer to the ATI situation as a total crapshoot	Jun 05 23:33
DaemonFC	and Intel usually works but always mediocre	Jun 05 23:34
DaemonFC	Nvidia is the only vendor with a passable driver	Jun 05 23:34
MinceR	even that "passable" is a world of crap	Jun 05 23:34
DaemonFC	well, I can at least make my Nvidia card work in linux	Jun 05 23:34
MinceR	i can make it work too	Jun 05 23:34
DaemonFC	ATI and Linux is like the hell of being cut up and soaked in salt water	Jun 05 23:35
MinceR	at least until compiz crashes, which i'm not sure whose fault is	Jun 05 23:35
DaemonFC	I'm going to say it, FAAC is by far the superior encoder for lossy audio compression	Jun 05 23:36
MinceR	then again a friend said i should upgrade the nvidia driver from 180 to 185 and then it's going to suck a lot less	Jun 05 23:36
DaemonFC	it kicks not only the reference AAC encoders ass, but trounces Vorbis too	Jun 05 23:36
schestowitz	DaemonFC: take a pill	Jun 05 23:39
schestowitz	ATI worked perfectly for me for like 5 years	Jun 05 23:39
schestowitz	No crashes	Jun 05 23:39
schestowitz	Sharp picture, 3920 pixels wide	Jun 05 23:39
schestowitz	One if the screens crapped out 3 months ago, though	Jun 05 23:40
schestowitz	Won't switch on.	Jun 05 23:40
DaemonFC	I will never buy another ATI product again	Jun 05 23:40
DaemonFC	it's not just because they are garbage on Linux	Jun 05 23:40
DaemonFC	their Windows drivers suck too	Jun 05 23:40
schestowitz	Punching that LCD didn't help, either	Jun 05 23:40
schestowitz	Sometimes it works with my other ones	Jun 05 23:41
schestowitz	Here at home I'm surrounded by 4 monitors	Jun 05 23:41
DaemonFC	ATI's definition of OEM support is they release ONE driver full of bugs and never update it again	Jun 05 23:41
schestowitz	Bull.	Jun 05 23:41
schestowitz	Check Phoronix out	Jun 05 23:41
DaemonFC	and good luck trying to get a Radeon Mobile working with their Linux driver	Jun 05 23:41
schestowitz	I didn't see one article per ATI product	Jun 05 23:41
DaemonFC	mine got dropped last month	Jun 05 23:41
DaemonFC	after not being supported at all for the first 2 years I had it	Jun 05 23:42
MinceR	iirc phoronix had an article about some ati cards being dropped from support before support for some new x server version came in	Jun 05 23:42
DaemonFC	and getting only mediocre support and inconsistent quality for the last 3 years	Jun 05 23:42
DaemonFC	fuck ATI	Jun 05 23:42
MinceR	which would mean you're stuck with old x servers with those cards	Jun 05 23:42
DaemonFC	they're not getting any of my money	Jun 05 23:42
_goblin	Roy: Thanks for linking my Bing article btw....	Jun 05 23:42
MinceR	then again i'm not sure how long nvidia is going to keep their "legacy" drivers updated	Jun 05 23:43
DaemonFC	uhhm, nice try	Jun 05 23:43
DaemonFC	Nvidia's cards ALL work in Linux	Jun 05 23:43
MinceR	they really really should just give the code to the kernel devs	Jun 05 23:43
DaemonFC	ATI is pure unmitigated dogshit	Jun 05 23:43
DaemonFC	abandoning products from 2005	Jun 05 23:43
MinceR	then we could have dri2 and kms	Jun 05 23:43
MinceR	and stability	Jun 05 23:43
DaemonFC	while Nvidia cards from 1999 work fine	Jun 05 23:43
DaemonFC	ATI sold me their last card	Jun 05 23:44
DaemonFC	out of two, both were duds	Jun 05 23:44
DaemonFC	I've bought Nvidia only ever since	Jun 05 23:44
ThistleWeb	sounds like Rolo love	Jun 05 23:44
DaemonFC	well, Nvidia stands behind what they sell, ATI never properly supports most of it to begin with and abandons it first chance they get	Jun 05 23:45
DaemonFC	so they can really just suck my dick	Jun 05 23:45
ThistleWeb	"do you love someone enough to give them your last Rolo?"	Jun 05 23:45
DaemonFC	they had their chance at my continued business and lost it	Jun 05 23:45
DaemonFC	AMD has so far failed to turn ATI around	Jun 05 23:48
DaemonFC	and the crap just keeps getting churned out	Jun 05 23:48
MinceR	well, at least they've released reference documentation to driver developers	Jun 05 23:49
DaemonFC	yeah, it's sad really	Jun 05 23:50
MinceR	nvidia and ati should really take a page from intel's book	Jun 05 23:50
DaemonFC	that the open source driver sucks less than the official driver from the company that makes the devices and has access to much more inside knowledge about them	Jun 05 23:50
Balrog	DaemonFC: I've had the flaky 8600M	Jun 05 23:51
Balrog	not fun	Jun 05 23:51
DaemonFC	"Here, do all our driver work for us and we'll still sell the cards to you all at full price"	Jun 05 23:51
DaemonFC	lmao	Jun 05 23:51
DaemonFC	yeah	Jun 05 23:51
MinceR	you know, if that yields drivers that work properly, i'd prefer it to having them keep secrets and make a crap proprietary driver	Jun 05 23:53
DaemonFC	and another reason Fedora kicks ass	Jun 05 23:54
MinceR	?	Jun 05 23:54
DaemonFC	a lot of the improvements for that driver are coming from them	Jun 05 23:54
DaemonFC	especially in proper LCD backlight support	Jun 05 23:55
DaemonFC	and power efficiency	Jun 05 23:55
DaemonFC	also, Fedora is one of the driving forces behind Nouveau	Jun 05 23:55
DaemonFC	don't get me wrong, I'd love to just install the system and have the driver there	Jun 05 23:56
DaemonFC	and sip my margarita	Jun 05 23:56
DaemonFC	and no setup hell	Jun 05 23:56
MinceR	ic	Jun 05 23:56
DaemonFC	I just think that the companies behind this are being pretty shitty	Jun 05 23:56
DaemonFC	Nvidia/ATI	Jun 05 23:56
DaemonFC	they're not putting any effort into the open source drivers for their own cards	Jun 05 23:57
DaemonFC	ATI gave some documentation and official nod	Jun 05 23:57
ThistleWeb	until people demand it they wont	Jun 05 23:57
ThistleWeb	while people dont care, they will keep their secrets	Jun 05 23:57
MinceR	people demand it	Jun 05 23:57
DaemonFC	but the RadeonHD and Nouveau projects get about the same support from ATI/Nvidia past that	Jun 05 23:57
ThistleWeb	I mean "enough people to make a difference in their profits"	Jun 05 23:58
MinceR	not going to happen	Jun 05 23:58
schestowitz	Apple beats all though	Jun 05 23:58
MinceR	until m$ is sent where it belongs	Jun 05 23:58
schestowitz	It knows what's good for you	Jun 05 23:58
ThistleWeb	while most of their users are windows users who dont care, its not going to happen	Jun 05 23:58
schestowitz	It shuts down	Jun 05 23:58
schestowitz	When it's too hot	Jun 05 23:58
DaemonFC	Nvidia's official position for not releasing specs or source is "Users shouldn't have to debug our drivers"	Jun 05 23:58
schestowitz	Shuts down.. not so gracefully :-)	Jun 05 23:59
DaemonFC	I've had to do more shit working around their drivers than I care to think about	Jun 05 23:59
MinceR	nvidia's official position seems more like "we can't be bothered to give a fuck"	Jun 05 23:59

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