IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 6th, 2009

un 06 00:00:19 <DaemonFC>MinceR: To get Nvidia's latest drivers working with Linux 2.6.30 I had to modify the kernel module source
ThistleWebcorporations only spend money on things when it makes them money somewhere in the chain, or prevents the loss of money if they dont do itJun 06 00:00
MinceRyayJun 06 00:00
DaemonFCremoving hacks that no longer apply to Linux 2.6.30Jun 06 00:00
MinceRperhaps i should get two laptops, one for gaming with an nvidia gpu and one for everything else with an intel gpuJun 06 00:01
DaemonFCinstead of working with the kernel developers, Nvidia seems to just hack around kernel bugs that may not even be there next monthJun 06 00:01
ThistleWebback laterJun 06 00:02
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DaemonFCthats the part that pisses me offJun 06 00:02
DaemonFCif they want to tell me that they don't release source code because they have a driver that worksJun 06 00:02
DaemonFCit should jsut workJun 06 00:02
MinceRindeedJun 06 00:03
MinceRand they should realize they can't do it properly anywayJun 06 00:03
MinceRthey can't afford to keep a team that can do this as well as the kernel developers canJun 06 00:04
DaemonFCthey could save themselves money and headaches by at least communicating with the kernel developers or fixing the bugs in the Linux kernel and submitting patchesJun 06 00:04
DaemonFCeven if they won't release their driverJun 06 00:05
DaemonFCit still beats hacking around bugsJun 06 00:05
DaemonFCwhy any company would want to endlessly wander around hacking around a new set of bugs every 3 months instead of fixing some of the bugs is just beyond meJun 06 00:06
MinceRit's because they're stupidJun 06 00:06
MinceRiirc via had the same problemJun 06 00:06
DaemonFCwhy would Via have proprietary drivers?Jun 06 00:07
MinceRthey had floss driversJun 06 00:07
DaemonFCThey make extremely low end Intel clonesJun 06 00:07
MinceRbut according to phoronix they just threw out the codeJun 06 00:07
MinceRno communicationJun 06 00:07
DaemonFCahhhhJun 06 00:07
schestowitzIndeedJun 06 00:07
DaemonFCNvidia does not have to release one line of source code of their own to patch bugs in LinuxJun 06 00:08
DaemonFCand they won't even do thatJun 06 00:08
DaemonFCschestowitz: Microsoft was going around trying to get WMA Pro to be the standard for HD radioJun 06 00:11
DaemonFCbut they were defeated by HE-AACJun 06 00:11
MinceRwho told them radio even mattered? :>Jun 06 00:12
DaemonFCthat's the ironic part of their HD radio receiver in the new ZuneJun 06 00:12
DaemonFCHD FM is just basically a 128k HE-AAC streamJun 06 00:12
DaemonFCit sounds very goodJun 06 00:12
schestowitzBlechJun 06 00:13
schestowitzOn-demandJun 06 00:13
schestowitzThat's where it goesJun 06 00:13
schestowitzLike YouTubeJun 06 00:13
schestowitzWelcome to YouTube radioJun 06 00:13
DaemonFCnot in your carJun 06 00:13
schestowitzCome back at 4pm when your favourite programme startsJun 06 00:13
schestowitzAnd prepare for tea breaks if you want to avoid commercialsJun 06 00:13
DaemonFCHD AM/FM is essentially competing with satellite radioJun 06 00:13
schestowitzMeh.Jun 06 00:13
DaemonFCjust that HD AM/FM is freeJun 06 00:13
schestowitzBroadcast is dinosaur stuffJun 06 00:14
schestowitzOne source, many recipientJun 06 00:14
schestowitzAsynchronous is the wayJun 06 00:14
DaemonFCschestowitz: Winamp has thatJun 06 00:14
schestowitzMy friends just hoook up PMPs to their car stereosJun 06 00:14
DaemonFCThey have on demand streamingJun 06 00:14
schestowitzI used to put an MP3 player in mineJun 06 00:14
schestowitzSoutcast is dino stuffJun 06 00:15
schestowitzFor dinos like MurdochJun 06 00:15
DaemonFCnot shoutcastJun 06 00:15
schestowitzShoutcast is SOOOOOOOOOO 1999Jun 06 00:15
DaemonFCit still supports Shoutcast thoughJun 06 00:15
DaemonFCbut they have a music library you can play anything fromJun 06 00:15
DaemonFCwhat I want to know is why these music stores insist on using constant bitrateJun 06 00:18
DaemonFCthat's so passeJun 06 00:19
DaemonFCit wastes an incredible amount of storageJun 06 00:19
MinceRperhaps some players still trip on VBRJun 06 00:19
DaemonFCreally old ones willJun 06 00:20
DaemonFCmost MP3 players from before 2004/2005 have no idea what VBR areJun 06 00:20
DaemonFC*isJun 06 00:20
DaemonFCbut I think pretty much all the ones sold anymore know what it isJun 06 00:22
DaemonFCI also have no idea why they still sell MP3sJun 06 00:23
DaemonFCor why I should pay $1 a song for an enormous file in an obsolete formatJun 06 00:23
DaemonFC:)Jun 06 00:23
MinceRbecause people are too stupid to know why they'd want FLACJun 06 00:24
DaemonFCany modern variable bitrate lossy codec will do better than MP3Jun 06 00:24
DaemonFCfor quality and file sizeJun 06 00:24
DaemonFCThere's more improvement going to AAC from Lame MP3 than going from reference MP3 to LAMEJun 06 00:25
DaemonFCit's pretty bigJun 06 00:25
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BalrogDaemonFC and MinceR: I only use lossless codecs for newly ripped audioJun 06 00:40
MinceRi use them whenever i canJun 06 00:40
BalrogI'm not too happy about the 16-bit 'bottleneck' though, but there's not much I can do about that :(Jun 06 00:40
DaemonFClossless doesn't scale to portablesJun 06 00:40
MinceRif it won't fit on the memory card of my pda/phone (or the player doesn't support it), i recode it to ogg vorbisJun 06 00:41
MinceRDaemonFC: it's a matter of timeJun 06 00:41
DaemonFCmaybe as a master copy, but I would never just slap a FLAC file on a portable with 4-16 gigs of flashJun 06 00:41
MinceRflash isn't limited to 16 gigs foreverJun 06 00:41
DaemonFCno, it's notJun 06 00:41
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DaemonFCI just bought a portable with 8 gigs and it was $50, but 10 years ago a portable with 128 megs was about $150Jun 06 00:42
Balrogwhat about the hard-drive based portablesJun 06 00:42
DaemonFCeven back then I was wondering what the hell good 128 megs wasJun 06 00:42
Balrogsomeone I know has a (now-discontinued) 160-gig ipodJun 06 00:43
DaemonFChard drives decrease the reliability and take longer to syncJun 06 00:43
DaemonFCif you want a 1.8" mini hard disk, you're down to the storage of a high capacity flash unitJun 06 00:43
DaemonFCalso battery lifeJun 06 00:43
Balrogthese devices cache the songs to RAMJun 06 00:44
DaemonFCyou get 3-4 times the battery life with Flash than with a hard driveJun 06 00:44
MinceRdon't you charge daily? :>Jun 06 00:44
Balrogso the hard drive spins up, a few songs are read to RAM, spins downJun 06 00:44
DaemonFCplus any decent flash player has a micro SD portJun 06 00:45
DaemonFCso you can pop in another 16 gigs for about $40Jun 06 00:45
DaemonFCand those can be swapped outJun 06 00:45
Balrogthat's still not 160GBJun 06 00:45
Balrog(his player is almost full, btw)Jun 06 00:45
DaemonFCI'd like to know where he got his music for it :)Jun 06 00:46
Balroghis dad is a DJJun 06 00:46
Balroghas tons of legal cd'sJun 06 00:46
Balrog:)Jun 06 00:46
DaemonFCuh huhJun 06 00:46
Balrogno, I'm serious hereJun 06 00:46
DaemonFCarm chair DJ and the Limewire avengersJun 06 00:46
DaemonFC:)Jun 06 00:46
_goblinLimewire? lolJun 06 00:47
DaemonFCLimewire biatch!Jun 06 00:47
DaemonFC:PJun 06 00:47
Balroglimewire sucksJun 06 00:47
_goblinftp0daywarez rule.Jun 06 00:47
_goblinDisclaimer:Jun 06 00:47
_goblinsaid with sarcasm.Jun 06 00:47
_goblinWell thats cut the conversation dead.Jun 06 00:50
MinceR020014 < DaemonFC> I'd like to know where he got his music for it :)Jun 06 00:50
MinceRwhy?Jun 06 00:50
_goblinI find the piracy topic facinating.Jun 06 00:50
_goblinMincer: Maybe he wants to leech copies?Jun 06 00:50
Balrog_goblin: where to get music that's out of print and not available online? Some 'pirates' conveniently digitize such music, often from LP's or cassettesJun 06 00:50
MinceRmaybe he wants to play mafiaaJun 06 00:51
_goblinsorry Balrog, was that a question or a statement?  I'm a little tired tonightJun 06 00:51
_goblinprobably due to having to use XP again...Jun 06 00:52
Balrogboth a question and a statementJun 06 00:52
MinceRit isn't like you couldn't easily fill 160 GB with freely available and redistributable great music from places like ocremix.org, remix.kwed.org and scene.org :>Jun 06 00:52
Balrogbecause I'm frustrated with obscure music that's out of printJun 06 00:52
Balrogoften which was originally on legacy mediaJun 06 00:52
_goblinyou a scene.org visitor?Jun 06 00:52
MinceRwell i mostly went there via scenemusic.info but they've had some hdd crashesJun 06 00:53
MinceRoh, and there's modarchiveJun 06 00:53
Balrogno, more about the fact that you can't get it on CDs or on the usual online channelsJun 06 00:53
MinceR(of course one would have to play modules into wav or something before they could be played on most dmp-s)Jun 06 00:53
_goblinand www.demoscene.tvJun 06 00:54
MinceRmy pda/phone has pomod on it but it isn't too convenientJun 06 00:54
_goblin..sort of off topic, but interesting (for me anyway)Jun 06 00:54
_goblinanyone heard of Waffles.fm?Jun 06 00:54
MinceRthen there are bands like Machinae Supremacy who make most of their songs available for downloadJun 06 00:55
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Balrog_goblin: some of us are committed to digitizing legacy-format musicJun 06 00:56
Balrogbut it sucks that others can't get to it :/Jun 06 00:56
_goblinI've no problem with that I would like my purple vynl Deep Purple Album "saved"Jun 06 00:57
MinceRwell, the mafiaa would say with a straight face that you're making them lose money by distributing music they aren't willing to sell anyway :>Jun 06 00:57
DaemonFChehJun 06 00:58
_goblinBTW for all you UK'rs here:  There is no provision in UK criminal law for "piracy" of IP where you are the sole recipient...Jun 06 00:58
DaemonFCjust like Nintendo saying that you're a pirate if you download NES romsJun 06 00:58
_goblindespite what BPA say.Jun 06 00:58
DaemonFCcause they re-release shitty compilations for their new systems sometimesJun 06 00:58
_goblinI always think though that the "roms" issue really destroys the argument of open formats like ogg....Jun 06 00:59
_goblinsince if a rom file from a console of yesteryear can be emulated, really there will not be a problem in the future with recovering work in a proprietary formatJun 06 01:00
DaemonFCOgg Vorbis is like a solution looking for a problemJun 06 01:01
DaemonFC:)Jun 06 01:01
_goblindoes IP have a shelf life or best before? One could argue that regardless of how old a title is, its the IP holders decision what to do with it...Jun 06 01:01
DaemonFCit's not a bad codec but there's really no reason for itJun 06 01:01
_goblinDaemonFC: If youre suggesting what I think, then god help me I agree.Jun 06 01:02
_goblinHowever:Jun 06 01:02
MinceR_goblin: making it possible for a console to be emulated ranges from a good deal of work to a whole lot of workJun 06 01:02
MinceRkeeping the old proprietary os and old proprietary app around might be a challengeJun 06 01:02
_goblinvery true since I've been involved with a 68k project on and off over the years.Jun 06 01:02
_goblinbut....Jun 06 01:02
DaemonFCMPEG doesn't care if people make free/open source encoders and decoders, you can share files you makeJun 06 01:02
DaemonFCthe only thing they're interested in selling licenses for is things like MP3 playersJun 06 01:03
Balrog_goblin: ROMs have emulators because they're popularJun 06 01:03
MinceRgetting them to output modern formats can be even more of a challenge (with a rom you only really care about playing, but you may want to bring a document to a format you can reuse)Jun 06 01:03
DaemonFCand to get a MP3 player to play Vorbis, why?Jun 06 01:03
Balrogtry that with a DEC fileJun 06 01:03
Balrog(PDP era)Jun 06 01:03
DaemonFCyou just paid MP3 royalites to play vorbisJun 06 01:03
MinceRand there might well be more legal issues with keeping around/getting old proprietary sw stacksJun 06 01:03
MinceRespecially if you need those files _for work_Jun 06 01:03
BalrogMac emulators depend on a ... Mac OS ROM dumpJun 06 01:03
Balrog(not OS, but chip on board)Jun 06 01:04
DaemonFCMicrosoft word formats have been reverse engineered and reimplemented since foreverJun 06 01:04
Balrogbut it contains part of the OSJun 06 01:04
_goblintrue, but then I can't see a time when any data is untouchable due to it being archived in an old proprietary format...Jun 06 01:04
DaemonFCand Office 2010 files are ISO compliantJun 06 01:04
Balrog_goblin: MacWrite is extremely hard to recover data from :/Jun 06 01:04
Balrogexcept maybe by copy/paste in an emulatorJun 06 01:04
MinceRDaemonFC: the reason for ogg vorbis is the need for a free lossy audio codec that isn't patent-encumberedJun 06 01:05
DaemonFCI'm not really sure that who made a format is really all that important as long as you know you'll be able to access the data in itJun 06 01:05
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MinceRwho made a format might be important in legal issuesJun 06 01:05
_goblinI think Mincer hit the point on the head.  Its (IMO) more about patents and not "readability"Jun 06 01:05
DaemonFCright, but LAME has been around since 1999Jun 06 01:05
DaemonFCdestroying the argument that we need VorbisJun 06 01:05
Balrogyes, in this situationJun 06 01:06
MinceRlame might have patent issues as wellJun 06 01:06
Balrogyes, LAME has patent issuesJun 06 01:06
DaemonFCand when those patents expire in less than 3 yearsJun 06 01:06
Balroga compiled copy violates the Fraunhofer patentJun 06 01:06
MinceRthat's 3 years from nowJun 06 01:06
DaemonFCVorbis won't gain mainstream acceptance by 2012Jun 06 01:06
MinceRalso, ogg vorbis is a better codec than mp3Jun 06 01:06
DaemonFCbut people WILL still use MP3Jun 06 01:06
Balrogyes, it sure isJun 06 01:06
_goblinDaemonFC: You say that, but look at DIVx and xVID.Jun 06 01:07
BalrogIf I use a lossy codec, it's 320kbps bitrateJun 06 01:07
MinceRDaemonFC: iso compliance stopped mattering when m$ bought isoJun 06 01:07
DaemonFCwhy 320k?Jun 06 01:07
DaemonFCthat's pretty arbitraryJun 06 01:07
_goblin192k is the highest I go....Jun 06 01:07
DaemonFCAAC supports any bitrate you wantJun 06 01:08
DaemonFCMP3 tops out at 320k bitrateJun 06 01:08
Balrog_goblin: it's been shown that 192k is noticeably worse than 256kJun 06 01:08
DaemonFCand both support VBRJun 06 01:08
Balrog256k and 320k are closeJun 06 01:08
DaemonFCso a CBR 320k anything is overkillJun 06 01:08
DaemonFCand pointlessJun 06 01:08
Balrogalmost indistinguishableJun 06 01:08
Balrog320 VBRJun 06 01:08
Balrognot CBRJun 06 01:08
_goblinBalrog: Im sure it is, however for day to day listening (and to keep the originals safe) even my taste in music is perfectly good at 192 (IMO)Jun 06 01:08
DaemonFCthe way to go with Lame MP3 is 32-320k VBRJun 06 01:09
DaemonFCwith Fruenhofer, you want VBR New 32-320kJun 06 01:09
Balrog_goblin: I just use losslessJun 06 01:09
_goblinIts a space thing for me...Jun 06 01:09
DaemonFCvariable bitrate pumps out high quality files with small file sizeJun 06 01:09
DaemonFCby allocating bits more efficientlyJun 06 01:10
_goblinand I shudder to think how much my CD collection would take up....Jun 06 01:10
Balrog_goblin: you can't afford a 1.5TB disk?Jun 06 01:10
_goblinlol.Jun 06 01:10
Balroglossless seems to take 300-400 MB per discJun 06 01:10
_goblinObviously cost not an issue...but its the encoding time and the fact that I couldnt throw a DVD into my system with a good few albums in 192....Jun 06 01:11
_goblinI like stuffing a DVD with my favorites and at 192 thats a hell of a selectionJun 06 01:12
_goblinour study has 3 walls of CD's.Jun 06 01:12
_goblinmostly I picked up as promo gifts over the years...Jun 06 01:12
Balroghmm...encoding time doesn't seem to be an issue here at allJun 06 01:12
Balrogspace, yes ... but you can always re-encode at a lower bitrateJun 06 01:13
Balrogcool.Jun 06 01:13
Balroghow much of it is out of print?Jun 06 01:13
_goblinno so much actually encoding, just the amount I would have to do.Jun 06 01:13
Balrog:)Jun 06 01:13
BalrogahhJun 06 01:13
_goblinBalrog: Id say quite a bit...Jun 06 01:13
Balrogwell I didn't transcode the old stuffJun 06 01:13
Balrogjust new stuff to losslessJun 06 01:13
_goblinand thats not including my record collection.Jun 06 01:14
Balroghow much of that is digitized?Jun 06 01:14
BalrogI am looking to digitize records and cassettes at 24 bitsJun 06 01:15
_goblin30 vynl albums at the moment...not much I know...Jun 06 01:15
Balrog30 is nothing ;)Jun 06 01:15
BalrogI have ... at least a few hundredJun 06 01:15
Balrogmany rare onesJun 06 01:15
_goblinIve a few Deep Purple ones I think are rare...Jun 06 01:16
_goblina rare "Fog on the tyne" (Lindesfarn)Jun 06 01:16
_goblinThe Maiden (of course)Jun 06 01:16
MinceRgnJun 06 01:17
_goblingnJun 06 01:17
Balrogfor those, google searches give infoJun 06 01:17
Balrogfor some of mine, google searches give no resultsJun 06 01:17
Balrogthat's how rare they are :(Jun 06 01:17
_goblinMy maiden ones are signed, due to a friend being a roadie...Jun 06 01:17
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_goblin"All the best....Bruce"Jun 06 01:18
BalrogcoolJun 06 01:18
_goblinEven as a teenager I was very anal about my records, so thankfully they are in excellent quality.Jun 06 01:19
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_goblin*conditionJun 06 01:19
BalrogI'd like to see some sort of archive for these like we have for old games / softare (though that's a ''legal gray area'') ... but the MAFIAA is a problem :(Jun 06 01:19
MinceRone would think that being anal about records would make them dirty :>Jun 06 01:19
Balrog(the totally rare/obscure ones)Jun 06 01:19
_goblin:)Jun 06 01:19
_goblinthat why I mentioned above...waffles.fmJun 06 01:20
_goblinapparently its a "secret" BT tracker for music.Jun 06 01:20
Balroghow do you get in?Jun 06 01:20
Balrog;)Jun 06 01:20
_goblinI've looked into that...Jun 06 01:20
_goblinits near impossible..Jun 06 01:21
Balroghave to ask a friend :)Jun 06 01:21
_goblinif you look at the www.waffles.fm site it doesnt even look dodgy.Jun 06 01:21
BalrogyeahJun 06 01:21
_goblinhaving said that, I've never been into the piracy scene since I like my originals too much...Jun 06 01:21
_goblinI do like laughing at the weak PB argument, since they truly believe that they are justifying criminality.Jun 06 01:22
Balrogwell, they have a right to a fair trialJun 06 01:22
Balrogbiased judges won't give a fair trialJun 06 01:23
_goblinagreed...but....Jun 06 01:23
_goblinand before I say anything further, Ill state I dont know their legal system so Ill base this on the UK one....Jun 06 01:23
_goblinIn a criminal case (at crown court in the UK) guilt will be found by the jury, its only the sentence passed by the judgeJun 06 01:24
Balrogmost other European countries don't have juriesJun 06 01:24
_goblinin rare cases the judge can direct the jury, however from what I've read the argument is against the judge having a conflict of interest.Jun 06 01:24
DaemonFChmmm, VLC supports Spectral Band Replication in AAC filesJun 06 01:25
_goblinso if there was a jury, the argument is against the sentence not the verdict.Jun 06 01:25
_goblinand for a similar offence in the UK, it can carry up to 7 years on indictment.Jun 06 01:25
_goblinso 1 year seems pretty tame.Jun 06 01:26
_goblinin addition, in the UK they would probably serve 6 months.Jun 06 01:26
_goblinfor a 1 year sentence.Jun 06 01:26
DaemonFCthe reason they don't want HE-AAC on portables is because then you could have one song per megabyte is pretty decent qualityJun 06 01:27
_goblinright..Im off to bed...the next time I'm here I'll be getting driven to Poole and surfing in the rear of a car...Jun 06 01:41
_goblinwish me luck with having to suffer an XP netbook!!!Jun 06 01:42
_goblingood night all.Jun 06 01:42
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DaemonFChttp://rapidshare.de/files/47434432/HE-AAC_vs_Vorbis.zip.htmlJun 06 01:47
DaemonFCYou should play that in VLC if you have it, I know it supports Spectral Band ReplicationJun 06 01:47
DaemonFCbut you'll se that the Vorbis file sounds pretty distorted while the HE-AAC is not really displaying any artifactsJun 06 01:48
DaemonFCunfortunately, SBR is patented, so you'll always have to use twice the bandwidth if you stream in VorbisJun 06 01:49
DaemonFCto get that quality backJun 06 01:49
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schestowitzHe makes science fun (1991, evolution): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo&feature=channelJun 06 02:09
schestowitzJust done watching it. Nice talk..Jun 06 02:09
DaemonFChttp://rapidshare.de/files/47434592/48k_HE-AAC_vs_Vorbis_Rob_Zombie_-_Dragula.zip.htmlJun 06 02:11
DaemonFC30 second sampleJun 06 02:11
DaemonFCI would have gone lower, but Vorbis can't go below 45kJun 06 02:13
DaemonFCAAC can go down to 8kJun 06 02:13
DaemonFCso due to technical limitations in Vorbis, I chose 48kJun 06 02:14
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DaemonFCit would be nice if Spectral Band Replication was not patented by ThomsonJun 06 02:16
DaemonFCthat would otherwise be the magic bullet to double your portable player's storage space for freeJun 06 02:16
DaemonFCschestowitz: Best Buy is going to take preorders for Windows 7 at half priceJun 06 02:26
DaemonFCstarting on the 26thJun 06 02:26
schestowitzSo?Jun 06 02:26
DaemonFC$50 upgrade discJun 06 02:26
DaemonFCI figured they would do something like thisJun 06 02:26
schestowitzGNU/Linux is better and it's freeJun 06 02:27
DaemonFChelps generate buzz if the upgrade from a defective product is only $50Jun 06 02:27
DaemonFCand not full priceJun 06 02:27
DaemonFC:PJun 06 02:27
DaemonFCI figured we'd see the return of the promotional step upJun 06 02:28
DaemonFCthey're only doing it for 2 weeks, which creates urgencyJun 06 02:28
DaemonFCwhich they'll exploit when there's a run on Best Buy to get the cheap upgrade discsJun 06 02:28
DaemonFCI've never seen MS do it quite this wayJun 06 02:30
DaemonFCusually it would just be promo discs in the store at launch that only upgrade you from the last versionJun 06 02:31
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schestowitzMicrosoft CTO Jumps Ship < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/chris-satchell-leaves-microsoft/ >Jun 06 02:58
schestowitzgnJun 06 03:14
DaemonFCI see Adobe still hasn't updated the Flash 10 player for x86-64 Linux since FebruaryJun 06 03:15
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Omar871Hello everyone!Jun 06 06:18
amarsh04hi Omar871Jun 06 06:21
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yuhongBTW, on IBM and conflict of interest, it is not perfect.Jun 06 06:56
yuhonghttp://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/01/new-book-from-ibmers-sony-suckered-into-funding-xbox-chip.arsJun 06 06:56
Omar871FSDaily is back up again! :)Jun 06 07:03
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oiaohmPartly true PPE appears in the memory protection  in the xbox 360 chip.Jun 06 07:54
oiaohmReally does not cause xbox 360 to run fast.Jun 06 07:54
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schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/larussa_sues_twitter_over_parody_account/Jun 06 08:39
schestowitzWhy does technology always boil down to political manipulation? http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/05/google-prepares-to-hold-another-dc-talkJun 06 08:42
schestowitzFor 'big computers' GNU/Linux is still king. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/cray_swiss_xt5/Jun 06 08:42
fewa<schestowitz> For 'big computers' GNU/Linux is still king. http://www.theregiJun 06 08:51
fewawhoopsJun 06 08:51
fewahttp://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1129643&cid=26873603Jun 06 08:51
fewahttp://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/comment/0,1000002985,39635251,00.htm The true cost of migrating to open sourceJun 06 09:07
oiaohmhttp://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Microsoft-Sees-Lower-Margins-from-Cloud-Computing-701800/  << MS is starting to wake up.Jun 06 09:10
schestowitzThey'll cannibalise themselves out of busienssJun 06 09:12
fewaits their only way to stay in businessJun 06 09:12
*schestowitz watches some interesting lectures... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_igTWNidwnk&feature=channelJun 06 09:12
schestowitzfewa: yes, but at what cost?Jun 06 09:12
fewathe world is changingJun 06 09:13
fewathey can either jump on the wagon or completely go out of businessJun 06 09:13
fewaif they stay in business they have a better ground to save faceJun 06 09:13
fewaand keep their platformJun 06 09:13
oiaohmfewa: MS is not a cheap company to keep running.Jun 06 09:14
fewabut they are not set up rightJun 06 09:14
fewaexactlyJun 06 09:14
oiaohmWe can expect to see more bleeding.Jun 06 09:14
fewaso they are still threatened on going out of business due to their more focused competitorsJun 06 09:14
oiaohmLinux not really that focused.Jun 06 09:14
oiaohmIts kinda hitting them everywhere.Jun 06 09:15
fewabut microsoft's competitiors are much better positionedJun 06 09:15
fewanot FOSS as a wholeJun 06 09:15
oiaohmThere competition is basically hitting them everywhere.Jun 06 09:15
fewathey want to keep their platform at any costJun 06 09:15
fewaas it is the only asset they haveJun 06 09:15
oiaohmServer Desktop Web there is basically not a single Market MS has that is not under attack at moment.Jun 06 09:16
fewabut do it in the most lucrative way, these goals are contradictoryJun 06 09:16
fewaa really heavy attack is the best thingJun 06 09:16
oiaohmMS is not in there place of old where they could just take money from server market and fight off desktop or take money from desktop to fight off server.Jun 06 09:17
fewaright now, to avoid strong attempts to water down FOSSJun 06 09:17
ushimitsudoki fewa: http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/comment/0,1000002985,39635251,00.htm The true cost of migrating to open source <- Good ArticleJun 06 09:17
fewayeah ushimitsudoki, refutes the FUD clearlyJun 06 09:18
ushimitsudokithanks for that linkJun 06 09:18
oiaohmReally the difference is between Standards based and non Standard based of course zdnet would miss that.Jun 06 09:18
fewatesJun 06 09:19
oiaohmIf everything you do is stored in Standard formats migration costs are way lower.Jun 06 09:19
oiaohmMS has never made standards and stuck to them.   So every migration the defects in MS files make it worse.Jun 06 09:20
oiaohmUntil the 1 day migration to another platform is cheeper.Jun 06 09:20
fewapeople dont realize this until they switch to FOSSJun 06 09:21
fewathey then realize that platforms and formats are differntJun 06 09:21
oiaohmApple migrations over the years have been fairly painless.Jun 06 09:21
oiaohmAnd have not followed the MS one of always growing cost.Jun 06 09:21
oiaohmSame with Unix migrations.Jun 06 09:22
fewaoiaohm, ???, only because their customers have simple needsJun 06 09:22
fewathey friggen changed OSs and ISAJun 06 09:22
ushimitsudokiThat fellow Mark Taylor is a good writer. What the hell is he doing over at ZDNet?Jun 06 09:22
fewaand most old software doesnt work anymoreJun 06 09:22
oiaohmApple and Unix guys lay down standards and stick to them.Jun 06 09:23
oiaohmYou don't go and alter network protocals for the hell of it.Jun 06 09:23
oiaohmLeading to all machines having to be migrated at once or altered.Jun 06 09:23
oiaohmLike MS has.Jun 06 09:23
fewawell yes on that pplatform, but the API/ISA of apple completely changed, the non-apple stuff was not smooth at allJun 06 09:23
fewaand dont think apple hasnt played that game beforeJun 06 09:23
oiaohmEven when apple did that old and new would still network to each other without problems.Jun 06 09:24
oiaohmSo people could still do piece to piece migrations.Jun 06 09:25
fewayes microsoft plays alot of bs, like with officeJun 06 09:25
fewabut apple did those games too, when they were on topJun 06 09:25
oiaohmApple has always left network standards alone.Jun 06 09:25
oiaohmSo you have something to link old and new.Jun 06 09:26
fewayes, when they did it it was hardwareJun 06 09:26
oiaohmMS never learnt better.Jun 06 09:26
fewamicrosoft did file formats and networking protols, and left hardware alone for the most partJun 06 09:26
fewaalthough microsoft certainly has made attempts to divide and conquor hardwareJun 06 09:26
oiaohmI still remember having to update 2000 and XP so they would work with a 2003 server without playing up.Jun 06 09:27
fewawhile avoiding spending for itJun 06 09:27
oiaohmThen having to do it again with vista and 2008Jun 06 09:27
oiaohmBasically it makes the process of upgrading network many times more costly than it should be.Jun 06 09:28
fewapropritary software is the enemy here, free software supports open standardsJun 06 09:28
fewaand prevents attempts to break standardsJun 06 09:28
oiaohmNot exactly propritaryJun 06 09:28
oiaohmUnix's and Apple have manged to e propritary and not break standards.Jun 06 09:28
fewawhenever a proprietary vendor gains control they always break standardsJun 06 09:28
fewathe UNIX-sters did it tooJun 06 09:28
oiaohmMost did not.Jun 06 09:29
oiaohmEarly on most of them learnt it was a bad thing to do.Jun 06 09:29
oiaohmMS basically never learnt it.Jun 06 09:29
fewamicrosoft could do it much, much , more cause they had such iron controlJun 06 09:29
fewaand they learned to spin it betterJun 06 09:29
fewapresenting it as an "improvement"Jun 06 09:30
oiaohmMaking and following standards is key to simple migrations.Jun 06 09:30
fewayes, it is amazing that microsft can get people to upgrade at allJun 06 09:30
fewabut they do it will anti-competitive ISA and OEM aggreementsJun 06 09:30
fewafinially that is failingJun 06 09:31
oiaohmUnix's found out in a highly competive market they could not sell there hardware if there was road blocks.Jun 06 09:31
oiaohmAlso there buyers did not want road blocks.Jun 06 09:31
fewaUNIX was about getting the sale, and lucrative support and fixing, microsoft was 100% about netowrk effects compined with lock-inJun 06 09:32
fewaif someone has good network effects they can break anythingJun 06 09:32
oiaohmWhen you have support contracts you don't want calls just because you broke a standard.Jun 06 09:32
oiaohmIts not really closed source vs open here.Jun 06 09:33
fewa"    It is this switching cost that has given customers the patience to stick with Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO, our lack of a sexy vision at times, and many other difficulties. […] Customers constantly evaluate other desktop platforms, [but] it would be so much work to move over that they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move.Jun 06 09:33
fewa    In short, without this exclusive franchise called the Windows API, we would have been dead a long time ago.Jun 06 09:33
fewa"Jun 06 09:33
oiaohmIts more support provider vs product seller(who does not care how)Jun 06 09:33
fewa^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Jun 06 09:33
oiaohmUnix and Apple do provide good support.   Same with Open Source.   So hard to do migrations due to breaking standards is not good for them.Jun 06 09:34
oiaohmBreaking standards is good for a product seller because it can force a person to update everything.Jun 06 09:34
oiaohmSaying that it is different because it FOSS is a foolish risk.    Distributions in time could get extreamly hard to migrate between if each one shared no common standards.Jun 06 09:36
schestowitzushimitsudoki: I know the person who wrote that article. he's like a friendJun 06 09:36
ushimitsudokischestowitz: really? this is the first time I have came across his writings, very well done - at least the couple I read just nowJun 06 09:36
schestowitzushimitsudoki: he's not a writerJun 06 09:36
schestowitzhe runs a business and he's friends with people like ShuttleworthJun 06 09:37
ushimitsudokiWell, he is effective in making a point, to be sureJun 06 09:37
oiaohmExactly why he missed but it really does not matter at the moment ushimitsudoki.Jun 06 09:37
ushimitsudokimissed it?Jun 06 09:38
schestowitzushimitsudoki: he reads BN BTWJun 06 09:38
ushimitsudokischestowitz: cool!Jun 06 09:39
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oiaohmIts not FOSS that made the difference its the following of standards.   I remember back in 1996 swaping between distributions.   Things have got a lot less painful in the standistation department.Jun 06 09:39
ushimitsudokioiaohm: I'm sorry, I don't follow? I don't see where he's talking about standards in the article fewa linked to - it's mainly about the long-term vs. short-term costs of migrationsJun 06 09:40
ushimitsudokiAh, then ZDNet offers up one of the stupidest articles I've ever had the misfortune of reading: http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/comment/0,1000002985,39649175,00.htmJun 06 09:42
ushimitsudokiI'm headed out to the bar later tonight, and only hope there's enough to drink to put me in a state where I might think an article like that is realisticJun 06 09:42
fewayeah i dont read zdnet, i found that article after just fallowing a schestowitz linkJun 06 09:42
oiaohmThe high cost of migration to Foss or other systems is caused by people not using true standard items ushimitsudoki.Jun 06 09:43
oiaohmLack of free migration causes closed source vendors to be able to keep on charaging more and more for it.Jun 06 09:44
fewaproprietary vendors would be fools to fallow standards when they are in controlJun 06 09:44
ushimitsudokioiaohm: to a certain degree yes. There is a lot of domain knowledge / user familiarity too though. I'm not sure which has the higher "lock in" costJun 06 09:44
fewawhile FOSS can continue to fallow standardsJun 06 09:44
ushimitsudokioiaohm: but no doubt that standards go a long way to easing migrationJun 06 09:45
oiaohmUnix vendors who used standard for ages.Jun 06 09:45
oiaohmAlso closed source.   Have not really had that growing shape.Jun 06 09:45
oiaohmIts more been going other way.Jun 06 09:45
oiaohmAs time go by costs low.Jun 06 09:45
oiaohmlower.Jun 06 09:46
fewabut they wer not in contol, microsoft was eating them for breakfastJun 06 09:46
oiaohmLinux was eating them for breakfastJun 06 09:46
fewathats nowJun 06 09:46
oiaohmMS created a new market of there own really never touched the Unix's.Jun 06 09:46
oiaohmIe Unix's did not bother with Small business.Jun 06 09:47
oiaohmFreebsd and Linux both have kept the Unix vendors in check over the years.Jun 06 09:47
schestowitzSwiss Government and Federal Computer Weekly: Why the Hostility Towards Free Software? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/federal-computer-weekly-foss-fud/ >Jun 06 09:47
oiaohmHow much migration costs to other platforms decides if a vendor can have always rising prices.   If its simple to migrate to other platforms they cannot have rising costs.Jun 06 09:50
oiaohmBecause the other platforms could under cut them.Jun 06 09:51
oiaohmStandards explain completely why some closed source has rising prices and other has dropping.   Customers are also have to take there part for the the location MS got to.Jun 06 09:55
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schestowitzNo standards -> nothing to  pressure prices down -> collusionJun 06 10:10
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schestowitzMicrosoft Windows Botnets Attempt to Change the Outcome of the British Elections < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/british-elections-ddos/ >Jun 06 10:16
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cftyguess what killed my 60 days updateJun 06 10:48
schestowitzHi, cfty Jun 06 10:50
schestowitzDoes Microsoft Corrupt the Term “Netbook” to Belittle GNU/Linux on ARM? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/corrupting-the-term-netbook/ >Jun 06 10:50
schestowitzfewa: I quote you in itJun 06 10:50
oiaohmI open someone release a smartbook that is a full sized laptop.Jun 06 10:54
oiaohmopen/hopeJun 06 10:54
oiaohmI really don't know how my brain ended up at open there.Jun 06 10:54
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cftysdfgguess why broke my 60 days uptime?Jun 06 11:03
oiaohmThat is a how long is a piece of string question.Jun 06 11:04
cftysdfga "uninteruptable" power suppy interrupted while the power was ONJun 06 11:04
cftysdfgPOSJun 06 11:04
oiaohmHappens.Jun 06 11:05
oiaohmWas not nasty and took power supply and motherboard with it/Jun 06 11:05
oiaohm?Jun 06 11:05
cftysdfgwent on battery cause it was too stupidJun 06 11:05
oiaohmHad one do that was not happy.Jun 06 11:05
cftysdfgsecond time its done thatJun 06 11:05
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oiaohmI guess its one of those ups's that have to be send a singal to return to normal operations.Jun 06 11:06
cftysdfgnoJun 06 11:06
cftysdfgit just browns itself outJun 06 11:06
cftysdfgand beeps and complainsJun 06 11:06
cftysdfgand burns electricityJun 06 11:06
*cftysdfg is now known as fewaJun 06 11:07
oiaohmOk stuffed up inverter.Jun 06 11:07
oiaohmTemp power distrupution.  Switches to not working inverter every thing stops.Jun 06 11:07
oiaohmSeen it a few times.Jun 06 11:07
fewaeverything else workedJun 06 11:07
oiaohmWhen nastly stuffed up switches to inverter and the computer wears 3000 volts.Jun 06 11:08
oiaohmSo it kinda stops.Jun 06 11:08
oiaohmBe thankful it could be way worse fewaJun 06 11:09
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schestowitzfewa: mine is over 3 months now.Jun 06 11:16
schestowitzOver 4 months at workJun 06 11:16
schestowitzNot UPSJun 06 11:16
schestowitz*noJun 06 11:16
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-103-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovellJun 06 11:16
_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 06 11:16
schestowitzMorning.Jun 06 11:16
_Hicham_weird thing at mozillaJun 06 11:16
schestowitzHow's agent Hicham today?Jun 06 11:16
_Hicham_I am really deceivedJun 06 11:16
schestowitz_Hicham_: I was just writing about itJun 06 11:16
schestowitzSilver LieJun 06 11:17
_Hicham_I am fine, thanksJun 06 11:17
_Hicham_noJun 06 11:17
fewayeahJun 06 11:17
fewajust annoyingJun 06 11:17
fewahate the beepingJun 06 11:17
fewaso annoyingJun 06 11:17
fewaits not like you dont notice when the power goes out and need to be toldJun 06 11:17
_Hicham_there is no source code for seamonkey2.0betaJun 06 11:17
_Hicham_I found a lot of bugs about thatJun 06 11:17
_Hicham_and seamonkey2 project seems deadJun 06 11:17
_Hicham_that is very deceivingJun 06 11:18
_Hicham_seamonkey1.x series are just not usableJun 06 11:18
oiaohmBecause you are ment to fire up the back up generator fewa.  That is why they beep.   The beep is designed to be annoyingJun 06 11:19
fewabut i know that the power is offJun 06 11:19
fewaand i am not stupidJun 06 11:20
fewai dont need to be treated as a child by my devicesJun 06 11:20
_Hicham_so conclusion : seamonkey council is telling us : fuck you!Jun 06 11:20
_Hicham_that is what I understoodJun 06 11:20
oiaohmSome have the press button shut up option.  And will start beeping when it gets critical.  That is only on larger units than most home ones.Jun 06 11:22
_Hicham_chromium is moving slowlyJun 06 11:22
_Hicham_and focusing on some minor issuesJun 06 11:23
_Hicham_instead of working on basic pluginsJun 06 11:23
_Hicham_like flashJun 06 11:23
_Hicham_a browser is not usable without flash contentJun 06 11:23
fewa_Hicham_, chromium is focusing on google core businessJun 06 11:23
_Hicham_I am talking about chromium linuxJun 06 11:23
fewaits movingJun 06 11:23
fewaits come quite a ways in the last monthJun 06 11:23
fewaand when its done i believe it will work unlike epiphany and suchJun 06 11:24
_Hicham_what ways?Jun 06 11:24
_Hicham_rendering basic html?Jun 06 11:24
fewawell they are more interested in windowsJun 06 11:24
_Hicham_and interpreting javascript?Jun 06 11:24
_Hicham_that is what u call moving?Jun 06 11:25
fewathe UI has been constructed where there was noneJun 06 11:25
_Hicham_all these elements are presentJun 06 11:25
fewanoJun 06 11:25
_Hicham_the UI is not really a big dealJun 06 11:25
fewathey had to be rebuilt for linuxJun 06 11:25
_Hicham_it is basicJun 06 11:25
oiaohmThen they want sandboxing.Jun 06 11:25
fewaif you have been fallowing it you would notice it has been moving, but it is not googles priorityJun 06 11:26
fewaand exacylyJun 06 11:26
_Hicham_everyone who worked on GTK knows thatJun 06 11:26
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fewathey need sandboxing before flashJun 06 11:26
oiaohmAnd by that point flash might not be that important.Jun 06 11:26
fewagoogle wants to get rid of explorerJun 06 11:27
fewaand there is no explorer on linuxJun 06 11:27
fewaso they dont really careJun 06 11:27
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_Hicham_then Chromium will stay like that for everJun 06 11:28
_Hicham_only Firefox will rule in LinuxJun 06 11:28
_Hicham_it is still the usable browserJun 06 11:28
fewafirefox will be better for quite a whileJun 06 11:28
_Hicham_and I think it will always beJun 06 11:28
fewaas chromium has no tools to decrappify the open webJun 06 11:28
_Hicham_so for now, I am sticking to Firefox and ThunderbirdJun 06 11:29
fewachromium is not targeted at youJun 06 11:29
oiaohmChromium was designed as a prototype.Jun 06 11:30
oiaohmGoogle never dreamed it would take off.Jun 06 11:30
_Hicham_fewa : to whom then?Jun 06 11:30
oiaohmMost of the tech of Chromium will appear in firefox.Jun 06 11:31
_Hicham_to dead people?Jun 06 11:31
fewawell, for me it just doesnt cut it, it will be a good browser for strict web appsJun 06 11:32
fewabut firefox is here now, and has gotten js performance about as goodJun 06 11:32
fewawith 3.5Jun 06 11:33
schestowitz_Hicham_: don't diss dead peopleJun 06 11:33
schestowitzMicrosoft loves them. They are the company's biggest fans.Jun 06 11:34
_Hicham_Google is just messing with LinuxJun 06 11:34
_Hicham_do they contribute?Jun 06 11:34
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_goblinhi allJun 06 11:35
_Hicham_hi _goblinJun 06 11:36
_Hicham_the big G plzJun 06 11:36
*_goblin is now known as _GoblinJun 06 11:36
_Hicham_thanksJun 06 11:36
_Goblin;)Jun 06 11:36
_Hicham_what did u do with ur netbook?Jun 06 11:37
_Hicham_did u succeed to connect?Jun 06 11:37
_Goblinon my way down to Poole....this netbook isnt badJun 06 11:37
_Goblinand yesJun 06 11:37
_Goblinim on it nowJun 06 11:37
_Hicham_using ndiswrapper?Jun 06 11:37
_Goblinno :(Jun 06 11:37
_Goblinusing.....Jun 06 11:37
fewawhich one _Goblin ?Jun 06 11:38
_Goblinreplacement with xpJun 06 11:38
_Hicham_are u on XP now?Jun 06 11:38
_GoblinAcer Aspire OneJun 06 11:38
_GoblinyeahJun 06 11:38
fewahow much?Jun 06 11:38
_Goblin179 gbpJun 06 11:38
_Hicham_that is bad to hearJun 06 11:38
_Goblinyeah.  it was either xp or a week without connectionJun 06 11:39
_Goblinlesser of two evilsJun 06 11:39
_Hicham_but I was trying to help uJun 06 11:40
_Goblinyeah, but the dongle was completely incompatJun 06 11:40
_Hicham_most wireless cards work with ndiswrapperJun 06 11:40
_Goblinsince its a pay as you go broadbandJun 06 11:40
_Hicham_there is nothing incompatJun 06 11:40
_Goblinthe software needed to be running correctly for the dongle to workJun 06 11:41
_Hicham_what is this dongle?Jun 06 11:41
_Hicham_oiaohm : still here?Jun 06 11:44
_Hicham_BN wiki is not accessibleJun 06 11:45
schestowitzDoes Microsoft Moonlight Do to Firefox What Microsoft Does to Firefox? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/moonlight-firefox-bundling/ >Jun 06 11:46
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schestowitz_Hicham_: maybe it thinks you're a zombie PCJun 06 11:47
__goblinlost connection in a tunnelJun 06 11:47
schestowitz_Goblin: can you access the Wiki? http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Anyone else having issues?Jun 06 11:48
__goblinill checkJun 06 11:49
__goblinits fineJun 06 11:49
amarsh04loads ok hereJun 06 11:49
*jbartosik has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 06 11:50
amarsh04back in a few, helping sort out a grub2 problemJun 06 11:50
__goblinbtw settled on chrome for my netbook browserJun 06 11:51
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_Hicham_schestowitz : it is working nowJun 06 11:52
__goblinbefore I left home I finally got chrome working on my distro.  I was very impressedJun 06 11:52
_Hicham__goblin : what distro?Jun 06 11:53
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_Hicham_مرحبا بالسيد عمرJun 06 11:54
__goblin?Jun 06 11:55
__goblinahJun 06 11:55
__goblinsorryJun 06 11:55
__goblinUbuntuJun 06 11:55
__goblinI couldnt get the alpha to work until nowJun 06 11:55
__goblinis it in beta yet?Jun 06 11:55
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_Hicham__goblin : Ubuntu 9.10?Jun 06 11:57
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__goblinthis Hirc is very unstable..Jun 06 11:58
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DarrylHay allJun 06 12:27
trmancohttp://digg.com/d1t5SIJun 06 12:28
trmanco7 is famous againJun 06 12:28
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MinceRgeekingsJun 06 12:32
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schestowitzOh noJun 06 12:48
schestowitzMicrosoft troll in this channelJun 06 12:48
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oiaohmCurrent targets for boot time are 10 secounds for a harddrive and 5 seconds on flash trmanco.Jun 06 12:53
oiaohmUbuntu still has room for improvement.Jun 06 12:54
schestowitzMicrosoft Stalks Its Competitors, Offers Them Money to Defect < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/microsoft-stalks-linux-devs/ >Jun 06 13:05
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trmancoschestowitz, whoJun 06 13:06
trmancooiaohm, impressiveJun 06 13:06
schestowitzLinux: intant onJun 06 13:07
schestowitzWindows: instant OWNJun 06 13:08
oiaohmNot new that Microsoft Stalks Linux developers.   The developer who designed the Linux kernel configuration system now works at MS.Jun 06 13:08
oiaohmAny bets on how long before MS releases there own Linux.Jun 06 13:10
amarsh040wn3d Linux?Jun 06 13:12
oiaohmIt is interesting that MS allowed a Linux developer to spend 30 percent of his time doing what ever he liked.Jun 06 13:14
oiaohmIn the past they put quite hard limits on what a developer working for MS could do.Jun 06 13:14
MinceRthey already have, it's called suseJun 06 13:15
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oiaohmGreat australia is going to have windows 7 released first.Jun 06 13:20
oiaohmHello bugs.Jun 06 13:21
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DarrylIm sure every company seeks to employ the best in the field, actually nothing wrong with thatJun 06 13:47
oiaohmNormally companies forbid working on there compettion.Jun 06 13:51
oiaohmOr at least not pay them to do that.Jun 06 13:51
schestowitzDarryl: troll elsewhereJun 06 13:52
schestowitzOr did you get banned from all Linux sites?Jun 06 13:53
Darrylwho's trolling ?Jun 06 13:53
*schestowitz removes voice from DarrylJun 06 13:53
oiaohmschestowitz: I class that as a over reaction.   Normal Australian style question.Jun 06 13:55
schestowitzNopeJun 06 13:55
schestowitzI know who that isJun 06 13:55
schestowitzbanned from Linux sites. Microsoft shillJun 06 13:55
oiaohmI always like seeing shill arguements.Jun 06 13:57
MinceRi get tired of them after a while.Jun 06 13:57
oiaohmI always like seeing how deep of a hole they dig themselves into.Jun 06 13:58
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?q=site:boycottnovell.com+darryl&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8&hl=enJun 06 13:58
oiaohmThe battle over ODF vs OOXML is a classic one.   OOXML has lost just MS is too dumb to see it yet.Jun 06 13:58
trmancooiaohm, for that, read COLAJun 06 13:58
oiaohmhttp://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/ms_word_2008_on_a  << Great I thought word 7 was the worst interface I had used.   MS had to out do themselves with the Mac version.Jun 06 14:05
schestowitzWhat do people use word processors for? MOST people?Jun 06 14:08
MinceRthe problems are 1) they start at the bottom of a hole and 2) they never realize itJun 06 14:08
schestowitzEdcuate me... why do people need 500MB of RAM for some text editor?Jun 06 14:08
oiaohmFor me writing reports with graphics.   So I need a little more than a text editor.  I find openoffice maths in tables really handy.Jun 06 14:09
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_Hicham_Hi All:Jun 06 14:10
DarrylhiJun 06 14:10
oiaohmHi _Hicham_ you asked a question when I was afk still want answer?Jun 06 14:11
_Hicham_what question?Jun 06 14:14
oiaohmwhat is this dongle?  << _Hicham_ I guess you find the answer to that.Jun 06 14:14
_Hicham_I was talking about the wireless cardJun 06 14:15
_Hicham_its brandJun 06 14:15
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongle  I have never seen that brand but I have cursed autocad dongles for breaking.Jun 06 14:17
_Hicham_so those dongles can't be used with Linux oiaohm?Jun 06 14:21
schestowitzSee the first comment here: http://www.dissociatedpress.net/2009/06/03/pros-and-cons-of-irc-meetings/Jun 06 14:31
schestowitz"Computer required — With phone meetings, you can dial in from anywhere — back of a taxi, while driving to work (using a headset, of course), while taking a walk, etc. IRC is sort of demanding in this regard."Jun 06 14:33
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mtnd3whi allJun 06 14:38
trmancohelloJun 06 14:41
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oiaohmDepends on the dongles _Hicham_Jun 06 15:07
oiaohmProblem with autocad dongles is they were electronically failing.Jun 06 15:07
mtnd3wschestowitz: great visual diagram on mono/microsoftJun 06 15:17
oiaohmIts extreamly correct thinking MS dreamed of a .net OS.Jun 06 15:32
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_Hicham_yes, that is the only dream that is left for themJun 06 15:56
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_Goblinhi all.  Just arrived in Poole...Jun 06 16:03
_Hicham_for a holiday?Jun 06 16:05
fewaoiaohm, yes a OS in which every function is a windows APIJun 06 16:06
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the_mad_hatterAh, no one home. Hey Roy, I'm rather proud of this one:Jun 06 16:08
the_mad_hatterhttp://crankyoldnutcase.blogspot.com/2009/06/trolls-and-linux.htmlJun 06 16:08
_Hicham_fewa : have u ever worked with WinAPI?Jun 06 16:09
the_mad_hatterYou've covered trolls a couple of times recently, thought I'd offer this up if you can use it.Jun 06 16:09
the_mad_hatterDon't program Windows.Jun 06 16:09
the_mad_hatterI hate windows. Linux or DOS, yeah, I do those.Jun 06 16:09
oiaohmHave you worked with OS/2 API then used WinAPIJun 06 16:10
the_mad_hatterDo you know how big a piece of shit the Registry is?Jun 06 16:10
oiaohmIts like every function has been put threw a mirror on its arguments.Jun 06 16:10
the_mad_hatterAnyway, since it seems I wasn't connected earlier..Jun 06 16:10
the_mad_hatterRoy, if you want to use this go ahead: http://crankyoldnutcase.blogspot.com/2009/06/trolls-and-linux.htmlJun 06 16:11
_Goblinsorry got distracted..Jun 06 16:11
the_mad_hatterI gotta run guys, got yard work to do.Jun 06 16:11
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oiaohmRegistry good idea in theory.  Extreamly bad in implementation and operation.Jun 06 16:11
_Goblinyeah _Hitcham_ got a holiday house in PooleJun 06 16:11
_Goblinby the sea...Jun 06 16:12
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MinceRthe registry isn't a good idea even in theoryJun 06 16:12
fewahorrible idea in theoryJun 06 16:13
oiaohmIn theory is a good idea.  Particularly when you note that registry supports things like acl's and fat when it was designed did not.Jun 06 16:13
fewathe theory of a registry that works is not a registryJun 06 16:14
oiaohmSo it should provide application access controls.Jun 06 16:14
oiaohmBut the implementation is that bad.   That its a paper wieght.Jun 06 16:14
oiaohmMS has had some of the best designs then managed to crap on them completely.Jun 06 16:15
oiaohmIts like NT its design is shaped to be a RTOS.   Yet due to poor management I cannot operate as a RTOS.   Linux is implementing currently features for RTOS NT had from day 1.Jun 06 16:16
oiaohmI cannot/it cannotJun 06 16:17
oiaohmNo matter how good of a design you give someone if they are incompetent in time it will become crap.Jun 06 16:18
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oiaohmMy best way to put it.  Its like giving someone a perfect wheel then they put a flat side on it so it don't roll down hills then they cannot work out why your normal wheel sells and theres will not be touched.Jun 06 16:20
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MinceRany good design they had they've thrown away from day 1 in the name of "performance"Jun 06 16:37
MinceRand they've managed to get something out of it that doesn't even perform.Jun 06 16:37
oiaohmIts very much like the wheel I describe.Jun 06 16:38
oiaohmyes it don't roll down hills so performs great at that due to the alteration.   When you get to all round performance it suxs.Jun 06 16:38
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oiaohmNot all alterations are for the best.Jun 06 16:39
trmancohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLT8IU7TXX8Jun 06 16:51
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schestowitztrmanco: good one, thanlks.Jun 06 16:56
schestowitzoiaohm: darryl troll leftJun 06 16:56
trmancosomeone posted this on colaJun 06 16:56
schestowitzYou don't know who that is, do you? :-)Jun 06 16:56
schestowitzamarsh04 would knowJun 06 16:56
schestowitzamarsh04: Darryl moved from trolling BN and LinuxToday to visiting IRCJun 06 16:57
schestowitzamarsh04: explain to oiaohm what "darryl" is (the IP matches BTW)Jun 06 16:57
Guest64890schestowitz: concerning KnoppMyth:Jun 06 16:57
Guest64890"4-1-09Jun 06 16:57
Guest64890I meant to post this earlier in the day, but the day got really busy really quick.  You see, today was my last day with my employer.  The job I started last year with Microsoft is no more.  I've become a victim of this "economic downturn".  At least, I'll have more time to devote to R6."Jun 06 16:57
Guest64890from his blogJun 06 16:58
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Balrogyes it's meJun 06 16:58
schestowitzI see....Jun 06 16:58
schestowitzI didn't offend himJun 06 16:58
schestowitzIt was about MS tacticsJun 06 16:58
schestowitzGood to have him backJun 06 16:58
schestowitzLike Daniel from GentooJun 06 16:58
BalrogI know; but that should be noted in the articleJun 06 16:59
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schestowitzAdd a commentJun 06 17:00
schestowitzI'vbe gotta run nowJun 06 17:00
BalrogokJun 06 17:01
oiaohmschestowitz:  CPE-121-217-137-199.nsw.bigpond.net.au  from my notes is in a teltra dynamic IP range assigned to different people at different times.   Not a IP number to bite on.Jun 06 17:05
oiaohmMissed schestowitz.Jun 06 17:05
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twitterInteresting how Guest64890 echoed my findings here http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/microsoft-stalks-linux-devs/#comment-65238Jun 06 18:11
twitterthen whatever added a lame M$ defense based on it 10 minutes later.Jun 06 18:13
twitterI should say "spin" rather than echo.Jun 06 18:14
twitterMoved from trolling to IRC, have they?  I'd say they are doing their best to disrupt everything.Jun 06 18:16
twitterbbl and a good morning to everyoneJun 06 18:20
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Balrog Guest64890 == meJun 06 18:38
Balrogno, I'm not trolling, just pointing out a factJun 06 18:39
BalrogI seeJun 06 18:39
Balrog'whatever's postJun 06 18:40
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schestowitzBalrog: not you..Jun 06 19:24
schestowitzHe was referring to DarryelJun 06 19:24
schestowitzKnown troll provoking and cursing. You didn't see it in IRCJun 06 19:24
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ThistleWebschestowitz, have you heard any connections between tesco and microsoft?Jun 06 19:24
ThistleWebthe "operating systems" part of the buyers guide in the spring / summer 2009 catalog has a Microsoft logo with "the latest and most popular is Microsoft Windows Vista"Jun 06 19:27
ThistleWebthey dont sell anything but windows, how can it not be the most popularJun 06 19:27
ThistleWebit's like having your baked beans shelves stacked end to end with Heinz, then proudly claiming the most popular is HeinzJun 06 19:28
ThistleWebtheir website still says the latest is XP tooJun 06 19:28
schestowitzTesco?Jun 06 19:46
schestowitzIs there a connectionJun 06 19:46
schestowitzTesco sells some Ubuntu PCs Jun 06 19:46
ThistleWebthey do?Jun 06 19:47
schestowitzOr didJun 06 19:47
schestowitzCan you check if they still sell em?Jun 06 19:47
schestowitzTesco tills go titsup http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/11/tesco_tills/Jun 06 19:47
schestowitzDell & Tesco bringing Linux to the masses - launching £299 Inspiron Z530 "Web Browser" in October http://www.techdigest.tv/2008/09/dell_tesco_brin.htmlJun 06 19:48
schestowitzTesco reveals unannounced Dell 12in netbook http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/09/12/tesco_dell_netbook_leak/Jun 06 19:48
schestowitzTesco breaks free of WMA chains http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/04/15/tesco-breaks-free-wma-chainsJun 06 19:48
ThistleWebhttp://direct.tesco.com/buyersguide/computing.aspx#topic3  says all the pcs they sell come with windowsJun 06 19:48
schestowitzTesco sell computers with Ubuntu pre-installed - Linux on the up? http://tech.blorge.com/Structure%20/2007/10/21/tesco-sell-computers-with-ubuntu-pre-installed-linux-on-the-up/Jun 06 19:48
schestowitzThistleWeb: maybe they got tied upJun 06 19:48
ThistleWebthen again, that page also states the latest windows is xpJun 06 19:48
schestowitzLike ASUS, by its OWN admissionJun 06 19:48
schestowitzWorth finding outJun 06 19:48
ThistleWebso maybe it's just not been updated in a whileJun 06 19:48
schestowitzMaybe antitrust abuseJun 06 19:49
schestowitzXP is not coming backJun 06 19:49
schestowitzRussia sued over itJun 06 19:49
schestowitzThere's another varient on Vista comingJun 06 19:49
ThistleWebthe tesco direct catalog you can pick up at the stores only has windows vista (and xp netbooks)Jun 06 19:49
schestowitz"Vista 7" they call it IIRC... probably the same drekJun 06 19:49
ThistleWebno linux options at allJun 06 19:49
schestowitzTesco is big busienssJun 06 19:50
ThistleWebindeedJun 06 19:50
schestowitzThey think alike -- sympathyJun 06 19:50
schestowitzJust watch the Wal-Mart-MS connectionJun 06 19:50
schestowitzAnd watch how they swap senior staffJun 06 19:50
ThistleWebI just wondered if you'd heard anything like MS pressure to only offer windowsJun 06 19:50
schestowitzAnd Wal-Mart was pushed to pay for patents... in LinuxJun 06 19:50
schestowitzMS sold them Linux couponsJun 06 19:51
schestowitzMaybe to replace Red hat.Jun 06 19:51
ThistleWebor kickbacks with discounts on iffy till softwareJun 06 19:51
schestowitzThistleWeb: yes, we wrote about it all the timeJun 06 19:51
schestowitzThere is evidence tooJun 06 19:51
schestowitzkickbacksJun 06 19:51
schestowitzdisguised as marketingJun 06 19:51
schestowitzOr added value or somethingJun 06 19:51
schestowitzpay2lieJun 06 19:51
schestowitzCan't remembetr the nameJun 06 19:51
schestowitzSomething like Coop Marketing is the offocial name IIRCJun 06 19:52
ThistleWebyeah I read about the tills going down in some storesJun 06 19:52
schestowitzI have proof (leaked)Jun 06 19:52
schestowitzThe till didn't go downJun 06 19:52
schestowitzThe software on them didJun 06 19:52
ThistleWebyepJun 06 19:52
schestowitz*tillsJun 06 19:52
ThistleWebthat software is kinda clunky to useJun 06 19:53
ThistleWebself service stuffJun 06 19:53
schestowitzBring a live CD that you prefer and hit restJun 06 20:05
schestowitz*resetJun 06 20:06
ThistleWeblolJun 06 20:06
ThistleWebya get the impression the self service tills mostly work but have some really annoying things built inJun 06 20:06
ThistleWebI take a ruckrack with me to carry my stuff home, but when you put it on the loading area the till freaks out that an unexpected item is thereJun 06 20:07
ThistleWebif you scan something and put it straight in your bag to save time and effort the till freaks out because the loading area didn't get the added weightJun 06 20:08
ThistleWebit forces you to do things in a long-ass way when you're trying to do the tellers job and pack your stuff at the same time to not hold people up more than you have toJun 06 20:08
ThistleWebbeeps for no reasonJun 06 20:08
ThistleWebit's a good idea but it could be done betterJun 06 20:09
ThistleWebthats before I knew it was windows, that info was a "so that explains it" mommentJun 06 20:09
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mib_db6h2li is it just meJun 06 20:31
mib_db6h2lor some of you here hates microsoftJun 06 20:31
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 20:32
ThistleWeblolJun 06 20:32
ThistleWebany particular part? the corruption? the third rate software?Jun 06 20:32
mib_db6h2llicensingJun 06 20:33
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 20:33
ThistleWebyou could say we're giving the same luv to Microosft as they do to usJun 06 20:33
ThistleWebwe're just more honest in our expressionJun 06 20:33
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:33
mib_db6h2li love gplJun 06 20:34
mib_db6h2lbut here is the dealJun 06 20:34
mib_db6h2ldevelopers need moneyJun 06 20:34
ThistleWebthe gpl don't state you can't make moneyJun 06 20:34
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:34
mib_db6h2lbut it is way more easy to make it the way they doJun 06 20:35
ThistleWebadmitedly you have to work harder to earn itJun 06 20:35
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 20:35
mib_db6h2lidont buy the you have to wotk harder stuffJun 06 20:35
ThistleWebmaybe the proprietary model we've seen for so long has had the whole deal vastly over market valueJun 06 20:35
mib_db6h2li think the problem is from society in generalJun 06 20:36
mib_db6h2lmicrosoft is just a victim of the systemJun 06 20:36
ThistleWeblolJun 06 20:36
mib_db6h2leven fsfJun 06 20:36
mib_db6h2lis a victimJun 06 20:36
mib_db6h2lof the systemJun 06 20:36
mib_db6h2llook how many stuff whe haveJun 06 20:37
mib_db6h2l200 linux distrosJun 06 20:37
mib_db6h2land we wonder why we dont have a larger userbaseJun 06 20:37
ThistleWebchoice is good, but too much choice can be confusingJun 06 20:38
mib_db6h2lyeah exactlyJun 06 20:38
mib_db6h2l30Jun 06 20:38
mib_db6h2lexluding the commercial onesJun 06 20:38
ThistleWebnew users hear about big distros like Fedora and UbuntuJun 06 20:38
ThistleWebthose are the entry level Linux distrosJun 06 20:38
ThistleWebwhen people get to grips with Linux after usoing it for a while, they start to hear about and possibly try other more specialised distrosJun 06 20:39
ThistleWebpeople thunk Ubuntu IS linuxJun 06 20:39
mib_db6h2lusers are not geeksJun 06 20:40
ThistleWebnot great for other distros, but at least the poster child is attracting new users to LinuxJun 06 20:40
EruaranLinux has a massive userbaseJun 06 20:40
mib_db6h2lthey just want their work doneJun 06 20:40
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:40
EruaranMost people don't know they're using LinuxJun 06 20:40
ThistleWebI dont use Ubuntu, but I welcome the effect it's havingJun 06 20:40
mib_db6h2lyeah here is the big problemJun 06 20:41
mib_db6h2lwe have many applicationsJun 06 20:41
mib_db6h2lbut none of this application are proJun 06 20:41
mib_db6h2lan exampleJun 06 20:41
mib_db6h2lvideo editingJun 06 20:41
mib_db6h2li am working in the edutaiment buissnessJun 06 20:42
MinceR(animated) http://aoi.morecp.net/img/0JDMYOrlARs5A0ZL.gifJun 06 20:42
mib_db6h2land i could  find a good video editorJun 06 20:42
mib_db6h2li want to use linux in my workJun 06 20:42
ThistleWebthe term "pro" is often applied to regular software aimed at getting money from IT departmentsJun 06 20:42
mib_db6h2lim using pro as out of the boxJun 06 20:43
ThistleWebmost users are not "pro" users, they are regular usersJun 06 20:43
mib_db6h2lyeah pro means user dont have to do the thinkingJun 06 20:43
ThistleWebwhere regular out-of-the-box software does all they needJun 06 20:43
mib_db6h2lthe computers does it for youJun 06 20:43
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:44
ThistleWebwhat most people use a word processor for, there are several options which would be greatJun 06 20:44
ThistleWebsome people do need specialised functions that only MS word hasJun 06 20:44
ThistleWebthat's a tiny fractionJun 06 20:44
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:44
mib_db6h2l20 %Jun 06 20:44
EruaranClarkConnect server ? You're using Linux. Netgear ReadyNAS Duo ? You're using Linux. Used Google lately ? Linux servers. Been through the checkout at Woolworths (Australia) lately ? Linux. Got an Android smartphone ? Linux. Been to see a blockbuster movie lately ? The post production effects and rendering, Linux. Drive a BMW with the latest tech gadetry in it ? Linux...Jun 06 20:44
mib_db6h2leven lessJun 06 20:44
ThistleWebmost people need a basic image or video manipulator for occasional home projectsJun 06 20:44
ThistleWebthey use a fraction of the features availableJun 06 20:45
mib_db6h2lyeah but lets not forget artistsJun 06 20:45
EruaranJust because its not visible doesn't mean its not being used.Jun 06 20:45
ThistleWebpro users in the entertainment feild are gonna be better served with AppleJun 06 20:45
mib_db6h2lright you areJun 06 20:45
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 20:45
EruaranI have friends who use Ardour.Jun 06 20:45
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:46
mib_db6h2lthat is awesomeJun 06 20:46
ThistleWebbut like I said, most users are NOT pro usersJun 06 20:46
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:46
EruaranMost users just want it to work.Jun 06 20:46
ThistleWebplenty will install cracked "pro" tools like photoshopJun 06 20:46
EruaranGNU/Linux excels at this.Jun 06 20:46
ThistleWeband only use it for red-eye fixing and resizingJun 06 20:46
mib_db6h2lno i have to disagreeJun 06 20:46
mib_db6h2llinux dosent work out of the boxJun 06 20:47
EruaranSays who ?Jun 06 20:47
mib_db6h2lmeJun 06 20:47
EruaranYour customer or ours ?Jun 06 20:47
ThistleWebmib_db6h2l, lmaoJun 06 20:47
EruaranWe're an OEM, its OUR job to make sure it "just works". And we make sure it does.Jun 06 20:47
mib_db6h2li had problem with audio 2 weeks in linuxJun 06 20:48
EruaranIf customers have a bad experience with Linux, its our fault.Jun 06 20:48
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 20:48
EruaranAnd compared to Windows... Linux problems are minimal.Jun 06 20:48
mib_db6h2land then i had the biggest problemJun 06 20:48
mib_db6h2lmy distro crashedJun 06 20:48
ThistleWebI'll play along, what disrto did you use?Jun 06 20:49
mib_db6h2levery work i done wasJun 06 20:49
EruaranWe spent the afternoon yesterday cleaning the Virut virus off Windows systems. Don't try and tell any of our techs that Linux is more problematic after an afternoon like that.Jun 06 20:49
mib_db6h2lfedoraJun 06 20:49
ThistleWebnot exactly the most stable exampleJun 06 20:49
ThistleWebfedora is a cutting edge distroJun 06 20:49
EruaranWe use Linux to rescue Windows systems. Nuff said ?Jun 06 20:50
ThistleWebnew stuff, not quite so well testedJun 06 20:50
EruaranThe only reason a virus didn't rip through our network just the other day is because not all of our systems run Windows.Jun 06 20:50
mib_db6h2lyeag after that my ubuntu crashedJun 06 20:50
EruaranThree systems were infected.Jun 06 20:50
mib_db6h2ldude i know linux is virus freeJun 06 20:51
ThistleWebthe way I see a lot of windows users complaints is that they spend years (in many cases) building knowldge of windows quirks and how to work around some of the backward ass Microsoft policiesJun 06 20:51
mib_db6h2land il love it for thatJun 06 20:51
ThistleWebwhen they use Linux they're back to the level of a normal userJun 06 20:51
EruaranWith a bit of guidance most users are fine with Linux.Jun 06 20:51
mib_db6h2lhere is a good example i useJun 06 20:52
ThistleWeband face the fact that they have to relearn a lot of stuff because Linux dont work the sameJun 06 20:52
mib_db6h2labout traditionJun 06 20:52
mib_db6h2land innovationJun 06 20:52
mib_db6h2lmike is regular guyJun 06 20:52
mib_db6h2lhe has a tvJun 06 20:52
ThistleWebon the surface there's plenty similarJun 06 20:52
EruaranIf you're willing to spend a bit of time with people to help them get up and running, there will be less problems later and you wont get the support calls that you get from Windows users. That is a fact.Jun 06 20:52
ThistleWebEruaran, exactlyJun 06 20:53
mib_db6h2lok dudes your just not collaborating with meJun 06 20:53
ThistleWebit does mean the user needs to be willing to learn a few new skillsJun 06 20:53
mib_db6h2li am a geek by natureJun 06 20:53
mib_db6h2land a buisness man by designJun 06 20:53
mib_db6h2li love linuxJun 06 20:54
mib_db6h2lbutJun 06 20:54
mib_db6h2lwe need to change some of our fundamental belief systemsJun 06 20:54
EruaranIf you give people the right advice, things are smooth. For example, a guy with Kubuntu wanted advice on a new printer. We pointed him to a HP printer that everyone rates highly with all the top distros. He took it home and it "just worked" with Kubuntu, no setup at all, just start using it. With Windows (he dual boots) it took him nearly half an hour to get the thing working.Jun 06 20:54
ThistleWebone big draw for OEMs with windows is that it will ned regular servicing / cleaning / repairing / new security subscriptions....all of which you can make money onJun 06 20:54
mib_db6h2ldudesJun 06 20:54
mib_db6h2lare you listenig to meJun 06 20:55
EruaranWhen people have this kind of experience, their entire perception changes.Jun 06 20:55
fewaThistleWeb, but if you educate people of that they will reject the vastly higher TCO of windowsJun 06 20:55
EruaranThese customers will not go elsewhere.Jun 06 20:55
mib_db6h2lwhat if the user dont need educationJun 06 20:55
mib_db6h2lmaybe the community needs educationsJun 06 20:56
mib_db6h2lwhy?Jun 06 20:56
mib_db6h2lbecause it is ruled by geeksJun 06 20:56
mib_db6h2lim not saying im rightJun 06 20:56
ThistleWebusers learn what they use, windows does work differently. When an issue pops up in Windows, power users know where to look and how to go about finding a fixJun 06 20:56
fewamib_db6h2l, there are plenty of businesses founded on improving linux and bringing it to the massesJun 06 20:56
mib_db6h2lbut as a geek i love complicated thingsJun 06 20:56
EruaranNo operating system is perfect. But those who are still beating the "Linux is not ready for the desktop" drum are freaking out of their minds.Jun 06 20:57
mib_db6h2li knowJun 06 20:57
EruaranWe deal with ordinary people daily.Jun 06 20:57
ThistleWebthe issues in Linux are different, as are the places to look for help and the ways of fixing stuff. That needs to be learnedJun 06 20:57
mib_db6h2lfor the love of onenessJun 06 20:57
EruaranNot geeks.Jun 06 20:57
mib_db6h2llook at apple they use JISSJun 06 20:57
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mib_db6h2lKISSJun 06 20:57
mib_db6h2lkeep it simple stupidJun 06 20:57
mib_db6h2land that is what linux needsJun 06 20:58
fewamib_db6h2l, thats ubuntuJun 06 20:58
mib_db6h2lnot to be a appleJun 06 20:58
mib_db6h2lno it is notJun 06 20:58
fewaand other desktop distrosJun 06 20:58
mib_db6h2lim telling this from experienceJun 06 20:58
EruaranUbuntu is excellent for ordinary users.Jun 06 20:58
ThistleWebApple have a major advantage in reducing the potential issues it's users may face. It controls both the hardware AND the software, and it's ALL proprietary so THEY have the codeJun 06 20:58
mib_db6h2lno it is notJun 06 20:58
EruaranI'm telling you from my experience.Jun 06 20:58
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 20:59
ThistleWebUbuntu is very much ready for most usersJun 06 20:59
mib_db6h2lmy experience of ubuntu isJun 06 20:59
mib_db6h2lno it is notJun 06 20:59
fewamib_db6h2l, I have set up ubuntu for people many times and it is much easier than any other system, propritary or freeJun 06 20:59
fewaIt Just Works(tm)Jun 06 20:59
EruaranWe have a growing userbase of Ubuntu users. They are business people, families, grandmothers. We are experiencing a great deal of success.Jun 06 20:59
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 20:59
ThistleWebmy main issue with Ubuntu is the lack of proprietary codecs installed by default, but they do make the hoops easy to jump throughJun 06 21:00
EruaranIf Ubuntu is not ready, then neither is Windows or Mac. Period.Jun 06 21:00
mib_db6h2li love linux im just saying it is not ready until we cjangeJun 06 21:00
ThistleWebthe preffered oiption is the customer could buy a new PC with Ubuntu already on it, so that'd be done for them anywayJun 06 21:00
fewamib_db6h2l, what change?Jun 06 21:00
mib_db6h2llook we have a loot of wast energyJun 06 21:00
fewamib_db6h2l, name specificsJun 06 21:00
EruaranThistleWeb: That's what we do.Jun 06 21:00
mib_db6h2lwe have many video editorsJun 06 21:01
fewamib_db6h2l, look at all the wasted energy in proprietart stuff, every time a new version comes out, building things twice,Jun 06 21:01
EruaranPreinstalled, already set up.Jun 06 21:01
ThistleWebwhen I can afford a new PC I'll be looking for someone selling Linux pre-installed on principleJun 06 21:01
Eruarancustomer takes it home and can just start using it.Jun 06 21:01
ThistleWebI prefer Mint, but at least if it's sold with Ubuntu, the hardware is all Linux sweetJun 06 21:01
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 21:02
EruaranWe have a grandmother who's greatest difficulty was getting used to the fact that Ubuntu was actually SIMPLER than Windows.Jun 06 21:02
ThistleWeb20mins with a Mint CD will sort that out ;)Jun 06 21:02
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mib_db6h2lofJun 06 21:02
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mib_db6h2lbut im not talking here about granmotherJun 06 21:02
yuhongBTW, on Intel and open source, what do you think is happening inside Intel?Jun 06 21:02
Eruaranwho knowsJun 06 21:02
mib_db6h2lim talking about artist gamersJun 06 21:02
fewamib_db6h2l, you havnt named a single issueJun 06 21:02
yuhongIs it Intel or Microsoft's fault?Jun 06 21:02
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mib_db6h2li haveJun 06 21:02
mib_db6h2lwe have many video editorsJun 06 21:03
fewamib_db6h2l, you are only talking in generalJun 06 21:03
mib_db6h2lbut no one wich actaully can make my work easyJun 06 21:03
mib_db6h2lim not talking about granmaJun 06 21:04
ThistleWebinstalling ANY OS is beyond the skill level of an average user, if you're doing that, you know about partitions, MBR, file systems etcJun 06 21:04
EruaranAll platforms have their  current strengths and weaknesses.Jun 06 21:04
mib_db6h2ltrueJun 06 21:04
ThistleWebif you're doing that, you should be capable of fixing post install issues like driversJun 06 21:04
ThistleWebnormal users won't install any OS, they will have someone with those skills to do it for themJun 06 21:05
ThistleWebin which case it's up to that person to leave them with stuff like sound workingJun 06 21:06
EruaranOne thing I do with "normal" users is this:Jun 06 21:06
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 21:06
Eruaran"can I use Nero on Linux ?"Jun 06 21:06
Eruaran"yes"Jun 06 21:06
Eruaran"but I don't know any Linux users who use Nero"Jun 06 21:06
Eruaran"why ?"Jun 06 21:06
ThistleWebbraseroJun 06 21:06
Eruaran"because there is better software like K3B and Brassero"Jun 06 21:06
ThistleWebyepJun 06 21:06
mib_db6h2lok people are not stupidJun 06 21:06
mib_db6h2lthey know alternatives existJun 06 21:07
EruaranOne of the first things I do is open people's mindsJun 06 21:07
ThistleWebpeople often know programs, not program typesJun 06 21:07
mib_db6h2lthis your think and it is okJun 06 21:07
EruaranI try to get the average Windows user away from the "run my Windows programs on Linux" thinkingJun 06 21:07
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 21:07
EruaranAnd this is usually quite successfulJun 06 21:07
mib_db6h2li think your not getting itJun 06 21:08
ThistleWebafter they realise there is more than one app to do something they can adapt. Any decent salesperson will tell you "don't sell the features, sell the benefits"Jun 06 21:08
ThistleWebcan I burn CDs and DVDs? yesJun 06 21:08
EruaranWe had one guy who needed a CAD program to work... I think it was ACAD or somethingJun 06 21:08
Eruaransorry, it was something elseJun 06 21:08
Eruaranto do with landscaping and mapsJun 06 21:08
Eruarana cad programJun 06 21:08
ThistleWebcan I watch DVDs? yes with libdvdcss (which I can install for you)Jun 06 21:08
EruaranIt turned out that is has been supported on Wine for yearsJun 06 21:09
EruaranAll he had to do was install Wine and install his programJun 06 21:09
mib_db6h2lyeah but you are closed like i was in a nomopoly empireJun 06 21:09
EruaranHe thought that was totally brilliantJun 06 21:09
mib_db6h2lyou think i people use one application they think there are noJun 06 21:10
mib_db6h2lalternativesJun 06 21:10
mib_db6h2lof course the are awareJun 06 21:10
ThistleWebmany users install EVERYTHING on a driver CD that comes with a new device they buyJun 06 21:10
ThistleWebincluding all the trialware shit, in house shit etc and get used to using thatJun 06 21:11
EruaranI have found that most Windows users have never heard of K3B or Brassero.Jun 06 21:11
mib_db6h2lyeah because they dont read a simple textJun 06 21:11
ThistleWebmy mom uses the Sony program for ripping and syncing her mp3 player even thought it;s clunky and funky file formatsJun 06 21:11
EruaranJust one thing like that opens their minds and they suddenly realise there is a world of software beyond what they know.Jun 06 21:11
ThistleWebit's a horrible interfaceJun 06 21:11
ThistleWebbut thats what she thinks she needs to work her mp3 playerJun 06 21:12
EruaranI showed someone how to burn a disk with Brassero...Jun 06 21:12
EruaranShe' was like, "thats it ?"Jun 06 21:12
Eruaran"thats all you do ?"Jun 06 21:12
EruaranI was like, "yes thats it"Jun 06 21:12
mib_db6h2lyeah people dont read textsJun 06 21:12
EruaranShe was like, "oh thats easy"Jun 06 21:12
ThistleWebone of the things with proprietary software is feature bloatJun 06 21:12
mib_db6h2lyou know whyJun 06 21:12
mib_db6h2lthey dont need shitJun 06 21:12
EruaranThis is a revelation for people... they really don't know whats out thereJun 06 21:13
ThistleWebthey have to keep adding stuff so you buy the new versionJun 06 21:13
mib_db6h2lyeah like oo deosent have the ame stuffJun 06 21:13
EruaranYou just have to be willing to spend those few minutes with people explaining to themJun 06 21:13
mib_db6h2lpeople are smart they dont need our helpJun 06 21:13
ThistleWebNero used to be great, until they ran into the problem that Nero as it was, was fine for almost everyone, so there was no need to buy the new versionJun 06 21:13
ThistleWebnow it's a massive suite, and there are other lightweight burners doing what Nero used to do for peepsJun 06 21:14
Eruaranlike burnerxpJun 06 21:14
mib_db6h2lit is a brand thingJun 06 21:14
mib_db6h2llike nikeJun 06 21:15
ThistleWebFOSS has no agenda to sell you the new version of something, so new features aint held back as carrotsJun 06 21:15
Eruaranmost people use Nero simply because that's all they knowJun 06 21:15
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 21:15
mib_db6h2lbut they add geeky stuffJun 06 21:15
mib_db6h2llike it or notJun 06 21:15
EruaranBanshee gets people off Nero in 5 minutesJun 06 21:15
ThistleWebwhen you're advised to "just upgrade" you dont have to wonder if it's a sales drone on commission pretending to be offering a support solutionJun 06 21:15
mib_db6h2lgeeks dont understand usersJun 06 21:15
mib_db6h2lnot alwaysJun 06 21:16
ThistleWeboften "just upgrading" in the proprietary wolrd means getting your credit card outJun 06 21:16
schestowitzMinceR: regarding that animated image, it doesn't look like they pee on the wallJun 06 21:16
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 21:16
mib_db6h2li used prop appsJun 06 21:16
mib_db6h2laand never paid for themJun 06 21:17
ThistleWeboften the promise that it will solve your issues is just an illusion tooJun 06 21:17
mib_db6h2leverJun 06 21:17
mib_db6h2lnot all prop are like thatJun 06 21:17
mib_db6h2lapple is a good exampleJun 06 21:17
mib_db6h2lim not apple fanaticJun 06 21:18
EruaranThere has been a resurgence of new viruses latelyJun 06 21:18
mib_db6h2lthey add useless thingsJun 06 21:18
mib_db6h2llike quicklookJun 06 21:18
ThistleWebApple are great at finding what parts of your setup are non Apple, blaming them for the problem you're having and offering to fix it buy you buying the Apple productsJun 06 21:18
mib_db6h2lcool but uselessJun 06 21:18
EruaranThis has prompted people to start dual-booting at leastJun 06 21:18
ThistleWebApple use supoort as an upsellJun 06 21:18
EruaranSometimes my goal is not even to get the user to use Linux as their primary OSJun 06 21:19
EruaranIts just to give them an alternative at bootJun 06 21:19
EruaranIts easy to "sell"Jun 06 21:19
EruaranAvoid Windows disasters: You can still use your computer even when Windows has gone belly upJun 06 21:19
EruaranSafer internetJun 06 21:19
EruaranetcJun 06 21:20
mib_db6h2lnot trulyJun 06 21:20
schestowitzOh dear.. I told you we get a lot of trolls ATM...... http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/astroturfers-are-masquerading/Jun 06 21:20
EruaranPeople respond very positivelyJun 06 21:20
schestowitzPretending to be Linux usersJun 06 21:20
ThistleWebIn part you can't blame them, they do take standard stuff and do their own proprietary stuff with it so you're gonna have issues using non-Apple stuff with it, so it does genuinely fix the problem albeit in a rather imoral wayJun 06 21:20
mib_db6h2li use win and lin and i am more happy with winJun 06 21:20
mib_db6h2li love linuxJun 06 21:20
mib_db6h2lbut i has disappointed meJun 06 21:20
mib_db6h2lmany many timesJun 06 21:21
EruaranroflJun 06 21:21
fewamib_db6h2l, what do you like about it then?Jun 06 21:21
fewasince you are so negativeJun 06 21:21
mib_db6h2lcompizJun 06 21:21
fewait seems like you hate itJun 06 21:21
mib_db6h2li love compizJun 06 21:21
Eruaranevery single day I am confronted with the retardedness of Windows... Ubuntu is like water to a thirsty manJun 06 21:21
mib_db6h2li used ubuntuJun 06 21:22
mib_db6h2li had my comic book made by meJun 06 21:22
mib_db6h2lmy work got blown away because  ubuntu crashedJun 06 21:22
ThistleWebsome people have a peice of hardware which is gonna cause them issues in LinuxJun 06 21:22
schestowitzIt's a troll, I thinkJun 06 21:22
schestowitz<mib_db6h2l> i had my comic book made by meJun 06 21:22
schestowitz<mib_db6h2l> my work got blown away because  ubuntu crashedJun 06 21:22
schestowitzClassic trollJun 06 21:22
schestowitzPretending to use LinuxJun 06 21:23
mib_db6h2lyeah but im a geek i biuld my pcJun 06 21:23
schestowitz<mib_db6h2l> i use win and lin and i am more happy with winJun 06 21:23
schestowitz<mib_db6h2l> i love linuxJun 06 21:23
schestowitz"I use Linux BUT.."Jun 06 21:23
ThistleWebwhen I first tried it I found my modem was a winmodem......never knew such a thing existed until I found I had oneJun 06 21:23
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 21:23
EruaranWe've been offering Ubuntu to our customers for ages nowJun 06 21:23
EruaranA pre-installed OEM systemJun 06 21:23
mib_db6h2lyou think i am trollJun 06 21:23
mib_db6h2lfine by meJun 06 21:23
ThistleWebdidnt have a hope in hell of getting online at the time with any linuxJun 06 21:23
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: I ask for evidenceJun 06 21:23
mib_db6h2li have proof howeverJun 06 21:23
schestowitzSome common themes that I see...Jun 06 21:23
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 21:23
schestowitzLike the playbooksJun 06 21:24
EruaranWe have not had a single case of Ubuntu crashing except for one - and that was a hardware problem: a faulty motherboardJun 06 21:24
mib_db6h2lhere is my proof i use llinuxJun 06 21:24
schestowitzOKJun 06 21:24
EruaranThe only time when my system is unstable is when I make it soJun 06 21:24
mib_db6h2lhttp://www.youtube.com/user/veriteoJun 06 21:24
mib_db6h2lthis is my yt pageJun 06 21:24
Eruaran(like when I add playground repositories) :PJun 06 21:24
mib_db6h2li have ther some vidsJun 06 21:24
mib_db6h2lusing ubuntuJun 06 21:25
schestowitzAhh.. OKJun 06 21:25
mib_db6h2lbefore it crashedJun 06 21:25
schestowitzSorry about that...Jun 06 21:25
schestowitzWhat do you mean "crashed"?Jun 06 21:25
mib_db6h2ldo ypou see itJun 06 21:25
schestowitzLike cars?Jun 06 21:25
mib_db6h2lthe screen got blackJun 06 21:25
schestowitzWhen Windows crashes it give a blue screenJun 06 21:25
schestowitzMost typicallyJun 06 21:25
ThistleWebso X crashedJun 06 21:25
schestowitzScreen blacked?Jun 06 21:26
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mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 21:26
schestowitzGPU error?Jun 06 21:26
mib_db6h2lnot im not sureJun 06 21:26
mib_db6h2li tryed to repair itJun 06 21:26
mib_db6h2lbut had no luckJun 06 21:26
ThistleWebmind you, if X crashed it'd drop you to the terminal which is at least a life boat to fix it compared to Windows crashingJun 06 21:26
mib_db6h2lwhent to irc chat rooms and couldnt help meJun 06 21:27
mib_db6h2lso i love linuxJun 06 21:27
ThistleWebproprietary nvidea type video drivers?Jun 06 21:27
mib_db6h2lno it wasnt because of the driversJun 06 21:28
mib_db6h2lbecause after i restartedJun 06 21:28
mib_db6h2land entered gdmJun 06 21:28
ThistleWebI've seen plenty of peeps complain about issues with nvidea drivers but I have never had an issue with them personallyJun 06 21:29
mib_db6h2lthe mouse coursor and keyboard whereJun 06 21:29
mib_db6h2lblockedJun 06 21:29
mib_db6h2li could use themJun 06 21:29
ThistleWebsounds like something made a dodgy change in your x.org config fileJun 06 21:29
MinceRschestowitz: they aren't peeing :>Jun 06 21:30
mib_db6h2lbut waitJun 06 21:30
mib_db6h2lthese is nlt end partJun 06 21:30
mib_db6h2lnot*Jun 06 21:30
mib_db6h2lmy boot menu stoped funtioningJun 06 21:31
Eruarangrub errorJun 06 21:31
Eruaranfix grubJun 06 21:31
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 21:31
ThistleWebyepJun 06 21:31
mib_db6h2li did thatJun 06 21:31
mib_db6h2lbut i still dosent workJun 06 21:31
mib_db6h2li dont knowJun 06 21:32
ThistleWebboth those issues, you must be unlucky. I wouldn't advise placing any betsJun 06 21:32
ThistleWebmost people don't have serious issues on distros like UbuntuJun 06 21:32
mib_db6h2land these happend with fedora ;alsoJun 06 21:32
mib_db6h2lbefore ubuntu i hadJun 06 21:32
mib_db6h2lfedoraJun 06 21:32
EruaranWe don't offer Fedora to home usersJun 06 21:33
mib_db6h2land i had problem with that twiceJun 06 21:33
mib_db6h2lim not a home userJun 06 21:33
ThistleWebmaybe some funky firmware thenJun 06 21:33
EruaranDoesn't matterJun 06 21:33
mib_db6h2lii used fedora on diffrent computerJun 06 21:33
ThistleWebI wouldn't trust Fedora as a stable systemJun 06 21:33
mib_db6h2lsystem67Jun 06 21:33
EruaranJust listening to you I wouldn't recommend Fedora in the first placeJun 06 21:33
mib_db6h2lfedora is okJun 06 21:34
EruaranYou mean System76Jun 06 21:34
mib_db6h2lbut i had this issuesJun 06 21:34
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 21:34
EruaranSystem76 pre-install with UbuntuJun 06 21:34
ThistleWebI see them as a bleeding edge distro where their stuff filters out in a more stable form months later to other distrosJun 06 21:34
mib_db6h2li knowJun 06 21:34
ThistleWebsystem76 will have their Ubuntu pre-install perfect for you to switch onJun 06 21:35
EruaranexactlyJun 06 21:35
mib_db6h2lyeah i dosent work for meJun 06 21:35
ThistleWeball hardware config stuff tweaked so you dont have toJun 06 21:35
mib_db6h2l:(Jun 06 21:35
ThistleWebwhich means you've done soemthing to itJun 06 21:36
EruaranThat's like someone coming to us and saying their Ubunbu system doesn't work. No way, we already know it works perfectly.Jun 06 21:36
mib_db6h2lyeah i didnt messed up itJun 06 21:36
ThistleWebperhaps some part is damaged inside, or a loose connection somewhere giving intermitent signalsJun 06 21:36
mib_db6h2lyeah but i cant have the same problem on 2 computersJun 06 21:37
EruaranEvery system is certified and individually tested and tweaked before leaving the store. We know how its behaving before the customer comes to pick it up.Jun 06 21:37
mib_db6h2lon 2 diffrent distrosJun 06 21:37
ThistleWebif it;s a loose connection inside the distro wont matterJun 06 21:37
mib_db6h2lhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/83894530@N00/1081308037/Jun 06 21:38
mib_db6h2lhere is my fedora distroJun 06 21:38
mib_db6h2lin its working daysJun 06 21:38
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 21:38
mib_db6h2lim am certified linux destroyer from some reason or anotherJun 06 21:39
mib_db6h2land its not funJun 06 21:39
mib_db6h2l:(Jun 06 21:39
ThistleWebdid your fedora or ubuntu work fine when you first installed them?Jun 06 21:40
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 21:40
schestowitzUbuntu is Censoring Opposition to Mono by Default http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/06/opposition-to-mono-by-default/Jun 06 21:40
ThistleWebschestowitz, that does seem an odd decision on Ubuntu's partJun 06 21:41
mib_db6h2lsome people dont believe i could damege 3 distrosJun 06 21:41
ThistleWebperhaps the whole "more compatible with M$" is buisness code for "we're ready to be your replacement for your in house M$ contact" to suitsJun 06 21:41
ThistleWebso by that reasoning Mono would be an enhancement to UbuntuJun 06 21:42
mib_db6h2lim cool with monoJun 06 21:42
mib_db6h2lit may be with ms stuffJun 06 21:42
mib_db6h2lbut it is ok for meJun 06 21:42
ThistleWebI won't touch it personally, but if it's installed by default on a distro it's no biggie, it's only an apt-get awayJun 06 21:43
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: nice shotJun 06 21:44
schestowitzf7Jun 06 21:44
mib_db6h2lyeah it was about 2 years agoJun 06 21:45
mib_db6h2lto bad i crashed and toked my work with itJun 06 21:46
schestowitzMoonshine or Zod?Jun 06 21:46
schestowitzI can't remember codenames.Jun 06 21:47
mib_db6h2lmoonshineJun 06 21:47
schestowitzI use MandrivaJun 06 21:47
schestowitzDid you try MandrivaJun 06 21:47
mib_db6h2lno that was f8Jun 06 21:47
mib_db6h2lyeah i didJun 06 21:47
schestowitzSome origins in France (and Brazil)Jun 06 21:47
schestowitzManrriva is eeeeeeeeeesy/Jun 06 21:47
mib_db6h2lyeah i knowJun 06 21:47
schestowitz2008.1 is greatJun 06 21:47
schestowitzI haven't tried many other versionsJun 06 21:48
schestowitzI had mandrakeJun 06 21:48
mib_db6h2lmandrake and lycosJun 06 21:48
mib_db6h2lmergedJun 06 21:48
mib_db6h2land becomed mandrivaJun 06 21:48
ThistleWebit was mandrake and centrivaJun 06 21:49
ThistleWebI believeJun 06 21:49
MinceRconectivaJun 06 21:49
ThistleWebMinceR, that's itJun 06 21:49
ThistleWebI knew it was c-somethingJun 06 21:49
mib_db6h2li had sound issues with mandriva and ubuntuJun 06 21:49
mib_db6h2lfedora worked nicelyJun 06 21:49
ThistleWebmib_db6h2l, try a different sound cardJun 06 21:49
mib_db6h2lchanged it 2 timesJun 06 21:50
mib_db6h2lits good nowJun 06 21:50
mib_db6h2l:(Jun 06 21:50
mib_db6h2lim still sad about the crashesJun 06 21:51
mib_db6h2li wish ubuntu was more stableJun 06 21:51
mib_db6h2lthey should just 1 realease a yearJun 06 21:51
mib_db6h2land make sure it is stableJun 06 21:51
mib_db6h2lwe also live in a add more features worldJun 06 21:52
schestowitzEllison and McNealy at JavaOne: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/06/02/JavaOne-2009-Day-1Jun 06 21:52
mib_db6h2lbecause we live in add more hardware worldJun 06 21:52
ThistleWebLinux does seem to get better and more stable, more user friendly each release. Even versions a couple of years ago were bad at some things like hardware detection which are now non-issuesJun 06 21:52
mib_db6h2li know that stuffJun 06 21:53
mib_db6h2lmy first distro was redhat 8Jun 06 21:53
schestowitzNice.Jun 06 21:53
mib_db6h2lwhen i was 10Jun 06 21:53
mib_db6h2lso its not like i dont know lnx gets betterJun 06 21:55
mib_db6h2lit doesJun 06 21:55
mib_db6h2lnot the way i would wishedJun 06 21:56
mib_db6h2lbut it is okJun 06 21:56
ThistleWebI constantly have issues with Pulse audio, but ALSA works great every timeJun 06 21:56
mib_db6h2lyeah here is the deal why do we need more options than pulse and alsaJun 06 21:57
mib_db6h2lrather then improving them dev prefere doing new stuffJun 06 21:57
schestowitzJava One - Larry Ellison on Java < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9aKLzptdvM >Jun 06 21:57
mib_db6h2lthan*Jun 06 21:57
mib_db6h2lok need to go thanks for the chatJun 06 21:59
mib_db6h2lim going to leave you with some compiz sweetnessJun 06 22:00
mib_db6h2lhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIDrW4Oxulk&feature=channel_pageJun 06 22:00
mib_db6h2lenjoyJun 06 22:00
schestowitzWhat PR bull: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-03-2009/0005037765&EDATE= "SAP Extends Commitment to Open Source, Increases Eclipse Membership Status and Joins Additional Eclipse Projects" From the company that attacks FOSS with patents and slursJun 06 22:01
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: thanksJun 06 22:01
mib_db6h2loh and all Urth tcg are under CCJun 06 22:01
mib_db6h2lso if you want to play a tcgJun 06 22:01
mib_db6h2lplay urthJun 06 22:01
mib_db6h2lits CREATIVE COMMONSJun 06 22:02
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 22:02
schestowitzCC is good tooJun 06 22:02
schestowitzThe framerate is lowJun 06 22:02
mib_db6h2lI know only cc for imagesJun 06 22:04
mib_db6h2ldo you kno othersJun 06 22:04
schestowitzWel..Jun 06 22:04
schestowitzWell.. for BN I use http://www.sxc.hu/browse.phtmlJun 06 22:04
schestowitzI think it's just royalty-free and it's hugely popular among Web devsJun 06 22:04
schestowitzI used it also as far back as 2004 for my blogJun 06 22:05
mib_db6h2lokJun 06 22:05
mib_db6h2li was wondering is there any web dev hereJun 06 22:06
mib_db6h2li want to asdk some questionsJun 06 22:06
mib_db6h2llike what could i use in making an online trading card gameJun 06 22:07
mib_db6h2lany foss optionsJun 06 22:07
mib_db6h2land how much would it cost to hire someoneJun 06 22:07
schestowitzTried sourceforge yet?Jun 06 22:07
mib_db6h2l?Jun 06 22:07
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 22:07
schestowitzWorth trying.Jun 06 22:08
schestowitzsourceforge.net -> SearchJun 06 22:08
mib_db6h2li was thinking cakephp could workJun 06 22:08
mib_db6h2li am not sureJun 06 22:08
mib_db6h2lso any suggestions are welcomedJun 06 22:11
mib_db6h2li was thinking adobe flex could doJun 06 22:11
mib_db6h2lbut that is not fully fossJun 06 22:11
mib_db6h2li just whant to make one of those stuffJun 06 22:12
mib_db6h2lbuild on fossJun 06 22:12
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 22:12
mib_db6h2lso is anyone here a tcg playerJun 06 22:12
schestowitzFormer RIAA Boss States The Obvious: The Record Labels Screwed Up... And Continue To Screw Up http://techdirt.com/articles/20090603/0040425108.shtmlJun 06 22:13
schestowitzFlex is no goodJun 06 22:13
schestowitzNo standardsJun 06 22:13
mib_db6h2li knowJun 06 22:13
mib_db6h2lflex is sweet for some dudesJun 06 22:14
mib_db6h2lbut i need one of those foss stuffJun 06 22:14
mib_db6h2li heard mozilla is doing something like flex with xulJun 06 22:14
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mib_db6h2lif i cant find a alternative i will have to use flexJun 06 22:16
schestowitzPrism??Jun 06 22:17
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 22:18
mib_db6h2la frameworkJun 06 22:18
mib_db6h2lto biuld web appsJun 06 22:18
mib_db6h2lbiuld*Jun 06 22:18
mib_db6h2lbuild*Jun 06 22:18
schestowitzUbiquity... SUpport Mozilla (SUMO) Jun 06 22:18
schestowitzThey require marketingJun 06 22:19
schestowitzbrbJun 06 22:19
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ChrisTXIve got a questionJun 06 22:24
ChrisTXboycottnovell.com boycotts the deal between ms and novell, is that correct?Jun 06 22:24
mib_db6h2lyeah they doJun 06 22:25
ChrisTXokJun 06 22:26
ChrisTXso my question isJun 06 22:26
ChrisTXwhy do you boycott novell for entering a deal with msJun 06 22:26
ChrisTXbut not mozillaJun 06 22:26
ChrisTXfor entering a $70M/year dealJun 06 22:26
ChrisTXwith google?Jun 06 22:26
ChrisTXthat is what I dont getJun 06 22:27
ChrisTXplz explain it to meJun 06 22:27
MinceRthey're different deals, aren't they?Jun 06 22:27
ThistleWebnovell enter patent agreements, acknowldge Microsoft's bogus IP infringement claims, use their position to push Microsoft's technology and agendaJun 06 22:27
MinceRi'm not saying the mozilla deal is goodJun 06 22:27
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MinceRthe m$-novell deal reinforces the m$ patent FUD against linuxJun 06 22:28
ThistleWebthey have allied themselves with a corporation who are hell bent on destroying FOSSJun 06 22:28
MinceRnovell pretends they're part of the FLOSS community, while they're trying to destroy itJun 06 22:28
ChrisTXFUDJun 06 22:29
ChrisTXI love that termJun 06 22:29
ThistleWebfear, uncertainty and doubtJun 06 22:29
ChrisTXyes I knowJun 06 22:29
ChrisTXI mean I cant deny I am a MS software advocatJun 06 22:29
ChrisTXlive raymondJun 06 22:29
ChrisTXis a oss software oneJun 06 22:29
ChrisTXI am just trying to understand your pointsJun 06 22:30
ChrisTXthat is what I wanrJun 06 22:30
ChrisTX*-tJun 06 22:30
ChrisTXso my question isJun 06 22:30
ChrisTXwhy is FLOSS actually what people consider to be a right?Jun 06 22:30
ChrisTXI meanJun 06 22:30
ChrisTXFLOSS claims ( warning: GNU opinion ) to be respectiong "freedoms" of peopleJun 06 22:31
ChrisTXI dont get thatJun 06 22:31
ChrisTXplease can somebody explain meJun 06 22:31
MinceRyou mean we shouldn't have the right to create software, collaborate in improving it and share it with others?Jun 06 22:31
ChrisTXwhy your hereJun 06 22:31
ChrisTXno that it is notJun 06 22:31
ChrisTXbut I meanJun 06 22:31
ThistleWebif you create a document, it's your document right? with your workJun 06 22:31
MinceRfree software is about respecting four essential freedomsJun 06 22:31
ChrisTXboycottnovell.com spreads anti-ms propaganda w/o delivering quotations etcJun 06 22:32
ThistleWebif it's saved in some closed format and the comany go under, your property is locked in that file you cant openJun 06 22:32
ChrisTXwhat freedoms?Jun 06 22:32
ChrisTXplz explainJun 06 22:32
ChrisTXI dont get thatJun 06 22:32
MinceRif you have looked at the site, you'd know articles do include quotes with sourcesJun 06 22:32
MinceRgenerallyJun 06 22:32
ChrisTXwould you mind explaining meJun 06 22:32
ChrisTXI am open mindedJun 06 22:32
ChrisTXthat it isJun 06 22:33
ThistleWebfree to modify, redistributeJun 06 22:33
MinceRhttp://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.htmlJun 06 22:33
MinceRthat explains it pretty wellJun 06 22:33
MinceR(and isn't difficult to find either)Jun 06 22:33
ChrisTXyes but why do you have the right to modify anything that anybody else made up?Jun 06 22:33
ChrisTXthat is what I dont getJun 06 22:33
ThistleWebbecause the developers made it and allowed it to be used like thatJun 06 22:33
MinceRbecause its author gave me that rightJun 06 22:34
ThistleWebthey understand that working as a group can make the software better than in a vacuumJun 06 22:34
ChrisTXwhat vacuum?Jun 06 22:34
ChrisTXI mean you're inserting termsJun 06 22:34
ChrisTXthat make no senseJun 06 22:34
MinceRbeing isolated from other developers, having to do everything from scratchJun 06 22:34
ChrisTXI still dont seeJun 06 22:34
SiyoI don't want to argue here but I think it's kinda ironic that this site accusses Microsoft of FUD while the writers on this site seem to do the same damn thingJun 06 22:35
ChrisTXwhy google is more trustworthty than msJun 06 22:35
MinceRnot even m$ does that, they rip off BSD-licensed code all the time, for exampleJun 06 22:35
ThistleWebspmeone sees a program, adds a new feature the original author didnt build and makes it available to allJun 06 22:35
ChrisTXwhat FUD plz?Jun 06 22:35
ChrisTXwhat you do to convince meJun 06 22:35
MinceRgoogle probably isn't more trustworthy than m$, but it's a different issueJun 06 22:35
ChrisTXis writing m%Jun 06 22:35
ChrisTX*$Jun 06 22:35
MinceRgoogle isn't attacking FLOSSJun 06 22:35
ChrisTXso ms is?Jun 06 22:35
MinceRyes they areJun 06 22:35
_Goblingood evening all....Jun 06 22:35
ChrisTXhow so?Jun 06 22:35
ThistleWebMicrosoft only like free software with liceneces they can absorb, fuck with and release as their ownJun 06 22:36
MinceRthey dread competition because they can't design or code sw to save their lifeJun 06 22:36
ThistleWebGPL stops them from doing thatJun 06 22:36
ChrisTXGPL, GPLJun 06 22:36
ThistleWebtheir fight is with GPLJun 06 22:36
ThistleWebnot free softwareJun 06 22:36
ChrisTXmy question isJun 06 22:36
ChrisTXdid you ever read what rms said?Jun 06 22:36
MinceRduring the entire lifetime of m$ they kept using anticompetitive business practices to prevent others from appearing on the marketJun 06 22:36
ChrisTXyoure using termsJun 06 22:37
MinceRthe quality of m$ products is extremely low and they do everything they can to force everyone to use those, without choiceJun 06 22:37
ThistleWebblocking competition is a long term practive of Microsot'sJun 06 22:37
ChrisTXlike anticompetitive business, what is that?Jun 06 22:37
MinceRFLOSS is a new kind of competition old m$ tactics don't work againstJun 06 22:37
ChrisTXso why?Jun 06 22:37
ChrisTXI mean what does make FLOSS better?Jun 06 22:37
ThistleWebforing OEMs to only offer Windows on new PCsJun 06 22:37
MinceRfor example, they can't just buy the company that owns a project because the project can survive thatJun 06 22:38
ChrisTXso you want linux on laptops offered by OEMs?Jun 06 22:38
MinceRFLOSS is ethical, unlike m$Jun 06 22:38
MinceRalso, FLOSS allows a lot of talent to be used in developing any piece of swJun 06 22:38
ThistleWebsome do offer it, but not many. Even a small taster is intollerable for MicrosoftJun 06 22:38
ChrisTXso waitJun 06 22:38
ChrisTXon what rights does FLOSS rely on?Jun 06 22:39
MinceRin practice, the FLOSS community has developed lots of sw which is of a much higher quality than anything m$ could come up withJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXyou're always saying bad msJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXlet's get beyond thisJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXget ms outta youre mindsJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXI knowJun 06 22:39
_Hicham_MS is badJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXms is a public companyJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXthey have their aimsJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXyesJun 06 22:39
ChrisTXlet's get beyond thisJun 06 22:39
_Hicham_okJun 06 22:39
_Hicham_as u likeJun 06 22:39
MinceRm$ is a company that tried to destroy the IT industry in a short-sighted quest for money and powerJun 06 22:40
_Goblinms is an ethos to many (imo)Jun 06 22:40
ThistleWebthey do, to ensure THEY are the complete IT solutionJun 06 22:40
MinceRthey almost succeededJun 06 22:40
_Hicham_though it is the main topic in hereJun 06 22:40
MinceRbut we wonJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXit is stupid to say ms wants $$$, everybody knows thisJun 06 22:40
MinceRm$ is dying and they know itJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXwhy so?Jun 06 22:40
MinceRthey don't just want money, they're willing to do _anything_ to get itJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXactually you need to get away from thinking that I am paid by msJun 06 22:40
MinceReven if it's unethical and immoralJun 06 22:40
_Goblinthe ethos that a large company can stifle innovation by pressure through courts or financial wieghtJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXI am not even an MVPJun 06 22:40
mib_db6h2li dont think soJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXI am underage, so I cant become MVPJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXwhich I think sucksJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXgotta admitJun 06 22:40
ChrisTXyeah, below 18 years, you cant become MVPJun 06 22:41
ChrisTXsucksJun 06 22:41
ChrisTXokJun 06 22:41
_Hicham_do u like MS?Jun 06 22:41
ThistleWebChrisTX, would you willingly go shoot up with heroin knowing you'd get addicted?Jun 06 22:41
ChrisTXget away from MS software beying paidJun 06 22:41
ChrisTXI meanJun 06 22:41
MinceRif you want to become an MVP, first look at what they did to their icelandian partnersJun 06 22:41
ChrisTXit is obvious that ms got a higher TCOJun 06 22:41
_Hicham_Open Source s/w is paid alsoJun 06 22:41
ThistleWebdoing ANYTHING which is exclusive to Windows is the IT equivelant of thatJun 06 22:41
ChrisTXknowJun 06 22:41
MinceRthat should be a warning to anyone contemplating partnering with m$Jun 06 22:41
ChrisTX_Hicham_, hard actuallyJun 06 22:42
MinceRalso consider what they've done to SCOJun 06 22:42
ChrisTXmy question isJun 06 22:42
_Hicham_how hard?Jun 06 22:42
ChrisTXwhat are you fighting for?Jun 06 22:42
ThistleWebit dont mean you cant do cross platform, or open standards on WindowsJun 06 22:42
_Hicham_what is ur question?Jun 06 22:42
ChrisTXbrbJun 06 22:42
_Goblintheres no fight Chris..Jun 06 22:42
_Hicham_we are fighting for freedomJun 06 22:42
mib_db6h2lwhy?Jun 06 22:42
_Goblinnot in the sense that ms understandsJun 06 22:42
MinceRChrisTX: i can't speak for everyone, but i'm fighting for the field i'm working in; and for freedomJun 06 22:42
mib_db6h2lwe are free to chooseJun 06 22:42
mib_db6h2lms can force you to use the swJun 06 22:43
MinceRIT is something all of our modern technology and scientific research depends onJun 06 22:43
_GoblinI simply want users to make informed choices on the basis of real facts not fud or PRJun 06 22:43
ThistleWebMicrosoft do believe in freedom too "you are free to choose from the versions of Vista we offer"Jun 06 22:43
MinceRwe simply can't afford to let m$ control itJun 06 22:43
_Hicham_yes, there is great freedom with MSJun 06 22:43
mib_db6h2lwhy notJun 06 22:43
ChrisTXfreedomJun 06 22:43
_Hicham_u can't choose VistaJun 06 22:43
ChrisTXwhat freedom?Jun 06 22:43
_Hicham_or XPJun 06 22:43
ChrisTXhow do you justify it?Jun 06 22:43
_Goblinfreedom of choiceJun 06 22:43
ChrisTXso my question isJun 06 22:43
_Hicham_hahaJun 06 22:43
_Hicham_this is really weirdJun 06 22:43
MinceRif you consider that IT is used to manage most of the data your job and wellbeing depends on, it's kind of importantJun 06 22:43
ChrisTXwhy do xp and vista sellJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXokJun 06 22:44
mib_db6h2lyeah you are free to use a computer or notJun 06 22:44
_Hicham_there is no choice with MSJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXxp more than vistaJun 06 22:44
_GoblinlolJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXbut why do theyJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXor actuallyJun 06 22:44
_Goblinwhy do vista sell?Jun 06 22:44
_Hicham_it doesn't sellJun 06 22:44
ChrisTX_Goblin, I knowJun 06 22:44
_Hicham_it comes preinstalledJun 06 22:44
_Goblinask enterprise...it didntJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXvista failedJun 06 22:44
ThistleWebxp dont sell because micorosft took it off the market to force people to buy vistaJun 06 22:44
_Hicham_which is way differentJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXms knows so tooJun 06 22:44
MinceRdon't worry, vista7 will fail tooJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXms does not really deny it eitherJun 06 22:44
MinceRsince it's the exact same thingJun 06 22:44
_Hicham_Vista changed MS wayJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXbut what does make linux better?Jun 06 22:44
_Hicham_freedomJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXfreedom?Jun 06 22:44
_Hicham_u can control itJun 06 22:44
ChrisTXwhat freedom?Jun 06 22:44
MinceRbetter quality, better reliability, better performance and respect for the freedom of the userJun 06 22:45
ThistleWebaround 80% of windows "sales" (liceneces) are pre0installed where people buy a PC, not an OSJun 06 22:45
_Goblinif you dont know the answer...try for yourselfJun 06 22:45
ChrisTXproof?Jun 06 22:45
MinceRand lower costsJun 06 22:45
_Hicham_do whatever u want with itJun 06 22:45
SiyoI hope I don't offend anyone but this FOSS stuff is becoming a god damn religion. Don't get me wrong though, I like Linux, I like open source, It's the FOSS extremists that I don't like at allJun 06 22:45
_Hicham_proof : I can't have my own version of softwareJun 06 22:45
_Goblinso is making moneyJun 06 22:45
_Goblinask ballmerJun 06 22:45
_Hicham_customized for meJun 06 22:45
ChrisTXactually this is one thing I would add as negatice annotation to boycottnovellJun 06 22:45
MinceRSiyo: realizing the need for freedom is hardly religionJun 06 22:45
ChrisTXit is claiming stuff without proofsJun 06 22:45
mib_db6h2lfreedom ia factJun 06 22:45
ChrisTXwhat fact?Jun 06 22:45
_Hicham_what proofs do u want?Jun 06 22:45
ChrisTXwhat freedoms?Jun 06 22:45
MinceRChrisTX: have you read any articles on BN?Jun 06 22:45
mib_db6h2lyour freeJun 06 22:46
ChrisTXfreedom is a word you can throw inJun 06 22:46
ChrisTXexplain itJun 06 22:46
mib_db6h2lyo choose to use a computer or notJun 06 22:46
_Hicham_ChrisTX : go see Open Source DefinitionJun 06 22:46
ChrisTX"your free" <- by what means?Jun 06 22:46
MinceRfreedom means control over one's own lifeJun 06 22:46
_Hicham_you're free to do whatever u want with the softwareJun 06 22:46
ThistleWebfree from being forced into giving money to one vendorJun 06 22:46
MinceRfree from slaveryJun 06 22:46
ChrisTXso my question isJun 06 22:46
_Hicham_not like proprietary productsJun 06 22:46
*Balrog_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 06 22:46
_Goblinchris....its about choice.Jun 06 22:46
mib_db6h2lfree to do what you wantJun 06 22:47
ThistleWebfree to choose the vendor which suits your needsJun 06 22:47
ChrisTXdid you ever read what rms says?Jun 06 22:47
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MinceRChrisTX: did you?Jun 06 22:47
ChrisTXrms says you shall not use a mobile phoneJun 06 22:47
MinceRit's a lot more than choiceJun 06 22:47
ChrisTXI maybe drink some beerJun 06 22:47
_Goblinchris, I read what I want and make my own choices...Jun 06 22:47
ChrisTXbut I am not what you'd call drunkJun 06 22:47
_Hicham_well, ask him whyJun 06 22:47
_Goblin?Jun 06 22:47
ChrisTXif I wouldnt have drunk some beerJun 06 22:47
ChrisTXI wouldnt actually bother bout youJun 06 22:47
ChrisTXbut so farJun 06 22:47
ChrisTXyou always redirected meJun 06 22:48
ChrisTXor saidJun 06 22:48
ChrisTX"freedom" w/o explaining itJun 06 22:48
MinceRactually an entire sentence can fit on a line, try itJun 06 22:48
ChrisTXconsider meJun 06 22:48
MinceRyouJun 06 22:48
MinceRdon'tJun 06 22:48
MinceRhaveJun 06 22:48
MinceRtoJun 06 22:48
MinceRpressJun 06 22:48
_Hicham_u don't wanna hearJun 06 22:48
MinceRenter after each wordJun 06 22:48
ChrisTXas a persion who wants to use linuxJun 06 22:48
MinceRit's annoyingJun 06 22:48
ChrisTXthat it isJun 06 22:48
_Hicham_u r stuck with ur own ideaJun 06 22:48
_Hicham_people who don't hear can't understandJun 06 22:48
_Hicham_basic ruleJun 06 22:48
ChrisTXMinceR, I said, I did drink some beer, you cant expect me to not do do thatJun 06 22:48
ChrisTXI am sorry actuallyJun 06 22:48
_Goblinchris, why not try FOSS for yourself instead of asking others to sell it to you.  You may understand what we mean by freedom then.Jun 06 22:49
MinceRi could expect you not to drink beer if you know it affects your behavior adverselyJun 06 22:49
ChrisTXFOSS, FOSS, what advantage does it give to me?Jun 06 22:49
ThistleWebif we were malicious we could encourage you to throw all your skills, money, education time into what Microsoft want you to do, where you'll be left behind as FOSS overtakes them and makes them irrelevantJun 06 22:49
_Goblinchris...why do we have to sell it?Jun 06 22:49
_Goblintry it.  Make your own decisionsJun 06 22:49
ChrisTXno, as I said, I am a lost ms goblin who wants to know why linux is betterJun 06 22:50
ChrisTXbut so farJun 06 22:50
MinceRChrisTX: it gives you better software, more assurance that it doesn't have backdoors, and the right to use it for any reason, improve it and customize it for your needs and to share those improvements with others if you want toJun 06 22:50
_Goblintry itJun 06 22:50
ChrisTXlinux channels either flamed meJun 06 22:50
ChrisTXor answered crap to meJun 06 22:50
_Goblinnot surprised.Jun 06 22:50
_Hicham_ChrisTX : go download a linux distroJun 06 22:50
mib_db6h2llinux is not betterJun 06 22:50
_Hicham_and u will knowJun 06 22:50
ChrisTX"better software"Jun 06 22:50
ChrisTXproof?Jun 06 22:50
mib_db6h2llinux is diffrentJun 06 22:50
_Goblinwe do not sell linux.Jun 06 22:50
ChrisTXI am asking for a proof?Jun 06 22:50
MinceRtry it and you'll seeJun 06 22:50
ThistleWebmib_db6h2l, you're jinxed, you don't countJun 06 22:50
_Hicham_go find the proof urselfJun 06 22:50
ChrisTXI didJun 06 22:50
_Goblinfind the proof yourselfJun 06 22:50
ChrisTXit's not like I didnt try linuxJun 06 22:50
ChrisTXpleaserJun 06 22:51
_Goblinthis isnt redmondJun 06 22:51
_Goblinwe wont try to sell anything to youJun 06 22:51
ChrisTXguess a ms nazi would go to a linux nazi channelJun 06 22:51
_Hicham_well, if u tried it, u should knowJun 06 22:51
MinceRit has superior design, it's better quality code and as a result of that it's known to be more secure, more flexible and fasterJun 06 22:51
ChrisTXand say ms is better tho I never tried linux?Jun 06 22:51
_Goblinwhatever.Jun 06 22:51
ChrisTXMinceR, "it is known to" <- proof?Jun 06 22:51
MinceRi've tried both, so i know what i'm talking aboutJun 06 22:51
ChrisTXplease proof?Jun 06 22:51
ThistleWebit's modular too, so you can install only what you need, cutting down on possible bugs and instabilityJun 06 22:51
MinceRChrisTX: what sort of proof do you want?Jun 06 22:51
mib_db6h2llinux is not better it just a diffrent systemJun 06 22:51
_GoblinChris, give me proof Microsoft is better.Jun 06 22:52
_Hicham_ChrisTX : go to secuniaJun 06 22:52
_Hicham_do u know secunia?Jun 06 22:52
_Hicham_ever heard of it?Jun 06 22:52
mib_db6h2lno one is better we just fight for more userbaseJun 06 22:52
ChrisTXMinceR, something not like " it is better"Jun 06 22:52
ChrisTX_Hicham_, pleaseJun 06 22:52
ChrisTXdone think I am a nubJun 06 22:52
MinceRmib_db6h2l: no, not just userbaseJun 06 22:52
_Goblinproof chris.  Why is windows good?Jun 06 22:52
ChrisTXI am actually really professionalJun 06 22:52
_Goblinyeah it showsJun 06 22:52
mib_db6h2lwhy not userbaseJun 06 22:52
MinceRmib_db6h2l: we're also fighting for hw and sw vendors to support our platform so that we can have freedom we wouldn't have otherwiseJun 06 22:52
ThistleWebthis is one area where the mass term "PC virus" comes back, these are "Windows viruses", they are exclusive to WindowsJun 06 22:52
ChrisTX_Goblin, ehm, Active Directiory for example?Jun 06 22:52
ChrisTXThistleWeb, pleaseJun 06 22:53
_Goblinproof pleaseJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXthat is retardedJun 06 22:53
mib_db6h2lyeah the more userbaseJun 06 22:53
_GoblinyepJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXguess an on with 1.22% usershareJun 06 22:53
_Goblinthats what we were trying to say politely to youJun 06 22:53
_Hicham_proofJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXhas the critical mass for viruses?Jun 06 22:53
_GoblinproofJun 06 22:53
MinceRit would also be nice if our governments used secure software to handle our personal dataJun 06 22:53
_Hicham_there is a lot of proofsJun 06 22:53
MinceRand m$ software simply won't do for thatJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXur brain is the proofJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXmy question isJun 06 22:53
_Hicham_no, it is not my brainJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXwhy do 40% of all serversJun 06 22:53
_GoblinlolJun 06 22:53
ChrisTXrun IISJun 06 22:54
MinceRChrisTX: first of all, the market share isn't knownJun 06 22:54
ChrisTXif windows is shitty?Jun 06 22:54
_Hicham_because IIS is goodJun 06 22:54
_Goblindont forget chris is the professionalJun 06 22:54
MinceRChrisTX: you shouldn't just eat what net application saysJun 06 22:54
ChrisTXMinceR, among webservers it isJun 06 22:54
_Hicham_it makes hacker's life easyJun 06 22:54
_Hicham_Windows is good alsoJun 06 22:54
MinceRChrisTX: IIS is a prime example of how m$ software is insecureJun 06 22:54
MinceRChrisTX: remember all those IIS worms?Jun 06 22:54
ChrisTX?Jun 06 22:54
ThistleWebevery time you interact with Google you're on LinuxJun 06 22:54
ChrisTXIIS wormsJun 06 22:54
ChrisTXI rememberJun 06 22:54
ChrisTXebay runs IIS 5Jun 06 22:54
MinceRinterestingly, there are no Apache wormsJun 06 22:54
_Hicham_because we can do easy ddos with Windows zombiesJun 06 22:54
ChrisTXand not being hackedJun 06 22:54
ThistleWebYahoo are )or at least were) on BSDJun 06 22:54
MinceReven though Apache has a greater market share than IISJun 06 22:55
mib_db6h2lyou know this fight is just about why should i use linuxJun 06 22:55
_Hicham_lsass vulnerabilities are great alsoJun 06 22:55
ChrisTXand I remember apache hacing decreasing sharesJun 06 22:55
ChrisTXwhile IIS increasesJun 06 22:55
ChrisTXproof?`Jun 06 22:55
ChrisTXwikipedia!Jun 06 22:55
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 22:55
mib_db6h2lloloJun 06 22:55
_Hicham_apache decreasing share?Jun 06 22:55
ThistleWebguys, Chris is just in here for a fightJun 06 22:55
_Hicham_hahaJun 06 22:55
mib_db6h2llol lolJun 06 22:55
MinceR"i know it because i edited the article"?Jun 06 22:55
_Hicham_really greatJun 06 22:55
_Goblinthats me convincedJun 06 22:55
_Hicham_do u know that MS sponsors Apache?Jun 06 22:55
ThistleWebno matter what you say, the argument continuing is his aimJun 06 22:56
ChrisTXmy question isJun 06 22:56
mib_db6h2lyeah 10000 bucksJun 06 22:56
ChrisTXwhat are you fighting for?Jun 06 22:56
_Hicham_ur question isJun 06 22:56
_Goblinmy question is...Jun 06 22:56
_Hicham_our question isJun 06 22:56
mib_db6h2luserbaseJun 06 22:56
_Hicham_what do u want from this channel?Jun 06 22:56
MinceRChrisTX: if you weren't write-only, you'd know already.Jun 06 22:56
ChrisTXI want to knowJun 06 22:56
_Goblinwhy do you bother with this silly time wasting tactic?Jun 06 22:56
ChrisTXwhy I would boycott novell and not googleJun 06 22:56
_Goblinoh hang on dont answerJun 06 22:56
*ThistleWeb is bowing out of this oneJun 06 22:57
ChrisTXmy actual first questionJun 06 22:57
mib_db6h2lits easyJun 06 22:57
MinceRnobody said you shouldn't boycott googleJun 06 22:57
ChrisTXand no answerJun 06 22:57
_GoblinI think I'll boycott ChrisJun 06 22:57
mib_db6h2lnovell is software baased and google is web basedJun 06 22:57
_Hicham_http://boycottChrisTX.comJun 06 22:57
mib_db6h2lim not saying the dont relateJun 06 22:57
ChrisTXMinceR, I read through some boycottnovell.com articles and what Ive seen is that you shouldnt boycott googleJun 06 22:57
_Hicham_by the way, are from Texas?Jun 06 22:57
ChrisTX_Hicham_ is rage'dJun 06 22:57
_Goblinmy question is...Jun 06 22:57
MinceRChrisTX: link?Jun 06 22:57
ChrisTXRage'dJun 06 22:58
ChrisTXall rage'dJun 06 22:58
_Goblinproof?Jun 06 22:58
_Hicham_proof?Jun 06 22:58
ChrisTXMinceR, at some article it saidJun 06 22:58
MinceRChrisTX: or like you keep saying thoughtlessly, "proof?"Jun 06 22:58
_Goblinmy question is..Jun 06 22:58
_Hicham_what are fighting for ChrisTX?Jun 06 22:58
MinceRChrisTX: "at some article" is not a linkJun 06 22:58
ChrisTX"remind, every time you use google you use linux"Jun 06 22:58
ChrisTX_Hicham_, LOLJun 06 22:58
ChrisTXplzJun 06 22:58
ChrisTXdont you thinkJun 06 22:58
ChrisTXthat mirroringJun 06 22:58
MinceRevery time you use the internet you use linuxJun 06 22:58
_Hicham_if u r from Texas, I understandJun 06 22:58
MinceRnot just googleJun 06 22:58
ChrisTXis pretty simple mindedJun 06 22:58
mib_db6h2lno not necesarly linuxJun 06 22:59
ChrisTX_Hicham_, I am notJun 06 22:59
MinceRguess what, even m$ uses linux-based load-balancersJun 06 22:59
mib_db6h2lyou also have bsdJun 06 22:59
ChrisTXmy question is: why are you hereJun 06 22:59
mib_db6h2land solarisJun 06 22:59
mib_ip7ksvWhat exactly are you looking for here?,ChrisTX?Jun 06 22:59
ChrisTXyou wouldnt be hereJun 06 22:59
_Hicham_to talkJun 06 22:59
_Hicham_just like uJun 06 22:59
ChrisTXif you werent fighting for anythingJun 06 22:59
MinceRChrisTX: why are people on IRC?Jun 06 22:59
_Hicham_there are a lot of interesting talks in hereJun 06 22:59
ThistleWebChrisTX, by all means forget all this new fangled nonsense about freedom, go get addicted to Microsoft's proprietary stuffJun 06 22:59
ChrisTXlolJun 06 22:59
ChrisTXplz you didnt deliver any argumentsJun 06 23:00
ThistleWebI'm sure Steve will appreciate that someone is still buying their bullshitJun 06 23:00
ChrisTXI saidJun 06 23:00
MinceRChrisTX: why are people who share some kind of opinion hang around in a place where they can talk to each other?Jun 06 23:00
mib_db6h2lif something isd propietary its not evilJun 06 23:00
_Goblinchris, I think you will be best off with MicrosoftJun 06 23:00
mib_db6h2l if something is propietary its not evilJun 06 23:00
ChrisTXI am not pro-microsoftJun 06 23:00
_Hicham_yesJun 06 23:00
ChrisTXI just saidJun 06 23:00
MinceRChrisTX: we did give you some good arguments, you just never did listenJun 06 23:00
_Hicham_it seems u rJun 06 23:00
ChrisTX I am not understanding why linux would increase my ROUJun 06 23:00
mib_ip7ksvyou have been given some general answers.  You've also been encouraged to try Linux for yourself to make your own opinions, so what more are you looking for?Jun 06 23:00
ChrisTX*ROIJun 06 23:00
MinceRChrisTX: strange, you started with explaining that you're pro-m$Jun 06 23:01
ChrisTXI DIDJun 06 23:01
ChrisTX1Jun 06 23:01
*_Hicham_ thinks ChrisTX will never listenJun 06 23:01
ChrisTX*!Jun 06 23:01
ChrisTXlolJun 06 23:01
_Goblindidnt he say he wanted to be a MVPJun 06 23:01
ThistleWebcourse he won'tJun 06 23:01
MinceRChrisTX: well, if you like TLA-s, then consider that you'd have a lower TCO ;)Jun 06 23:01
schestowitzIIS is LOSING market shareJun 06 23:01
ThistleWebthat's the point, he's in here to stir up reactionsJun 06 23:01
MinceRa lower TCO means less investment for the same gainJun 06 23:01
MinceRand there you go, higher ROIJun 06 23:01
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: to some users the goal in Linux is userbaseJun 06 23:01
schestowitzLike Apple'sJun 06 23:01
schestowitzBut to others it's freedomJun 06 23:02
schestowitzWe don't need another OS XJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXwhat are you talking aboutJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXexplain meJun 06 23:02
*_Hicham_ concludes that ChrisTX is a beginner trollJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXwhy I as companyJun 06 23:02
schestowitzChrisTX: BN is not a hostile siteJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXwould not use linuxJun 06 23:02
schestowitzAnd we don't censorJun 06 23:02
ChrisTX*windowsJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXfuckJun 06 23:02
mib_db6h2lim not saying freedom is not importantJun 06 23:02
schestowitzBut you are here to pick up a fightJun 06 23:02
MinceRit would be beneficial to the world if even the ignorant masses would be delivered from shoddy m$ productsJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXtoo much beerJun 06 23:02
schestowitzIn our yardJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXyesJun 06 23:02
mib_db6h2lfreedom is life for meJun 06 23:02
schestowitzNot yoursJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXwhy would I not use windows?Jun 06 23:02
MinceRbut what i mostly care about is my own freedomJun 06 23:02
schestowitzThis make you -- not us -- the aggressorJun 06 23:02
ChrisTXschestowitz, my parents got a companyJun 06 23:03
mib_db6h2lbut computer is a human manufactureJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXwhy would they use linuxJun 06 23:03
_Hicham_hahaJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXexplain meJun 06 23:03
MinceRand the freedom of those who care about their freedom and are willing to do something about itJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXw/o flamingJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXand I will migrate to linuxJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXI willJun 06 23:03
schestowitzVista 7 will stinkJun 06 23:03
schestowitzFact.Jun 06 23:03
_Hicham_don't migrate to linux plzJun 06 23:03
mib_db6h2lwhy is not ms freeJun 06 23:03
schestowitzMicrosoft takes debtJun 06 23:03
schestowitzIt's finishedJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXI am looking what the biggest ROI isJun 06 23:03
MinceRChrisTX: they could get a cheaper and more secure infrastructure that performs better and can be shaped to fit their needs betterJun 06 23:03
mib_db6h2lbecause society is not freeJun 06 23:03
schestowitzJust give it some years to floatJun 06 23:03
ThistleWebIf you licence MS Office it;'s under conditions like "non-commercial use". If you run a part time ebay store and need to create letters to your customers it becomes commercial use and you need to pay moreJun 06 23:03
schestowitzIt can't eveolveJun 06 23:03
ChrisTXnot caring about anything elseJun 06 23:03
schestowitzIt tried with BongJun 06 23:04
schestowitzit just got highJun 06 23:04
schestowitzNo Google killer{tm}Jun 06 23:04
MinceRbong isn't evolution, it's just rebrandingJun 06 23:04
ThistleWebif your small business expands and you need new PCs, you need a new licenece for EVERY new installJun 06 23:04
ChrisTX <MinceR> ChrisTX: they could get a cheaper and more secure <-- proof? studies?Jun 06 23:04
ThistleWebas you grow Microsoft sucks some of your moneyJun 06 23:04
mib_ip7ksvI'm not sure a straight up "why should I use Linux" is quite the best way to approach it.  Look at what it is your company needs to do and how well Linux fits that role.Jun 06 23:04
MinceRChrisTX: secunia? personal experience of thousands?Jun 06 23:04
mib_db6h2levery thing is about secretsJun 06 23:04
MinceRChrisTX: inspecting the design and the code and seeing for yourself?Jun 06 23:04
ThistleWebFOSS is free to install as many times as you likeJun 06 23:04
MinceRChrisTX: anyone with half a clue can see that windows is full of design flaws that linux doesn't haveJun 06 23:05
ChrisTXit is not about TCOJun 06 23:05
mib_db6h2lif a earthquake destroys our civilizationJun 06 23:05
ChrisTXmay I remind you about thatJun 06 23:05
MinceRChrisTX: starting with putting the GUI in kernelspace and continuing with the registryJun 06 23:05
ChrisTXit is about ROIJun 06 23:05
mib_db6h2lwe could use linux docs t o recreate linuxJun 06 23:05
ChrisTXwhy does Linux have a bigger ROIJun 06 23:05
ChrisTXfor my parentsJun 06 23:05
ThistleWebI just gave you an ROI exampleJun 06 23:05
MinceRChrisTX: it's also pretty easy to see that gnu/linux systems can be configured better to fit the needs of their usersJun 06 23:05
mib_db6h2lbecause linux is freeJun 06 23:05
ChrisTXThistleWeb, negJun 06 23:06
ChrisTXyou saidJun 06 23:06
ChrisTXit is FOSSJun 06 23:06
MinceRChrisTX: MICROS~1 tried to replicate that via MinWinJun 06 23:06
ChrisTXFOSS = low TCOJun 06 23:06
ThistleWebfree to install as many times as you like, on as many systems as you wantJun 06 23:06
ChrisTXnot low ROIJun 06 23:06
schestowitzChrisTX: it's hard to compete with FOSS without using FOSSJun 06 23:06
ChrisTX*highJun 06 23:06
Siyoschestowitz, don't you find it ironic that you complain about Microsoft's FUD while writing your own?Jun 06 23:06
schestowitzMicrosoft buys many FOSS-based companiesJun 06 23:06
schestowitzThey use Linux, Apache, BSD...Jun 06 23:06
ChrisTXschestowitz, like?Jun 06 23:06
MinceRChrisTX: lower TCO leads to higher ROI if nothing else changes, quite obviouslyJun 06 23:06
schestowitzBecause it helps them succeedJun 06 23:06
schestowitzIf you use Windows, you're roadkillJun 06 23:06
mib_db6h2lhotmail used freebsdJun 06 23:06
schestowitzHad Google used Windows it would pay MS royaltiesJun 06 23:06
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 23:06
MinceRChrisTX: lower TCO means lower costs, lower costs means you invest less money to get the same income, thus higher ROIJun 06 23:07
schestowitzLike AMD pays IntelJun 06 23:07
ChrisTXschestowitz, I know who you areJun 06 23:07
schestowitzAnd Windows, quite frankly, sucks for any real jobJun 06 23:07
MinceRChrisTX: but i've explained this once alreadyJun 06 23:07
ChrisTXyou know who Ia mJun 06 23:07
MinceRChrisTX: do we know who you are?Jun 06 23:07
ChrisTXso let's discuess at a srs levelJun 06 23:07
schestowitzThat's why 94% of the world's top 500 computers run LinuxJun 06 23:07
ThistleWebMicrosoft do like free sofwtare, as long as it's licenecd in a way they can modify it to make it incompatible, not release the changes and pretend it's theirsJun 06 23:07
ChrisTXnot about why linux would be betterJun 06 23:07
ChrisTXI meanJun 06 23:07
mib_db6h2lhey dudes image a world were linux is  closed sourced and windows is fossJun 06 23:07
MinceRtop 500 brings another thing to mindJun 06 23:07
MinceRlinux scales betterJun 06 23:07
schestowitzSo your patents can stick with Windows and end up like Lycos... or Zune.Jun 06 23:07
mib_db6h2lwhich would you supportJun 06 23:07
ChrisTXdo you srsly want to waiste your time at that?Jun 06 23:07
mib_ip7ksvHere's another tangible benefit of Linux.  Let's say that Vista sucks.  Badly.  Enough that many businesses won't touch it with a ten foot pole.  That much has turned out true.  Now, what if Windows 7 is equally bad?  What is a Windows shop to do?  Stay with XP until the end of time?Jun 06 23:08
mib_ip7ksvNow flip that around to LinuxJun 06 23:08
MinceRlinux has greater market share on both embedded and supercomputers and is present in all segments in betweenJun 06 23:08
ChrisTXschestowitz, I wonder, why you love linux ( I am sorry, FOSS ) that hard?Jun 06 23:08
mib_ip7ksvWhat if Ubuntu starts going downhill?  There are plenty of alternatives to switch toJun 06 23:08
ChrisTXUbuntu, pleaseJun 06 23:08
MinceRm$ shops can't afford to stay with winxp either, because it's unsupported alreadyJun 06 23:08
mib_ip7ksvOr, Ubuntu could be forked and customizedJun 06 23:08
ChrisTXUbuntu is about the gayest FOSS existingJun 06 23:08
ChrisTXI am maybe acting like a trollJun 06 23:08
ThistleWebChrisTX, you wouldn't understand the answer to that question, your mind is glued shutJun 06 23:09
ChrisTXbut you can believeJun 06 23:09
mib_db6h2ley dudes image a world were linux is closed sourced and windows is foss which would you supportJun 06 23:09
ChrisTXI got quite enough knowledgerJun 06 23:09
mib_ip7ksvI merely used it as an exampleJun 06 23:09
MinceRmoving to vista/vista7 would be a great loss, not only because vista and vista7 suck, but also because it would force them to upgrade their machinesJun 06 23:09
MinceRthe hJun 06 23:09
MinceRwJun 06 23:09
mib_ip7ksvI could easily have used Debian or Fedora thereJun 06 23:09
MinceRwhich means expenses for nothingJun 06 23:09
ChrisTXvista7 lolJun 06 23:09
_Hicham_schestowitz : we got a new DaemonFCJun 06 23:09
ChrisTXWHY?Jun 06 23:09
schestowitzSiyo: writing MS FUD?Jun 06 23:09
schestowitzMe?Jun 06 23:09
MinceRand the license costs of vista/vista7 are also additional expensesJun 06 23:09
ChrisTXmy questions is:Jun 06 23:09
schestowitzDid I accuse MS of violating patentsJun 06 23:09
schestowitzDid I say I'd sue it?Jun 06 23:09
ChrisTXwhy does MS software sellsJun 06 23:09
ChrisTXif LInux is better?Jun 06 23:09
schestowitzDid I threaten its employees?Jun 06 23:10
MinceRmib_ip7ksv: if linux were closed source, it wouldn't be linuxJun 06 23:10
mib_db6h2llinux is 2 things a religion and a systemJun 06 23:10
_Hicham_my question isJun 06 23:10
schestowitzDid I try to fragment .doc?Jun 06 23:10
_Hicham_ur question isJun 06 23:10
MinceRmib_ip7ksv: if windows was FLOSS, it wouldn't be windowsJun 06 23:10
_Hicham_our question isJun 06 23:10
schestowitzDo I disribute flyers?Jun 06 23:10
_Hicham_their question isJun 06 23:10
_Hicham_there is no questionJun 06 23:10
mib_ip7ksvMostly because many people are not aware of Linux, and Microsoft does everything it can to keep it that way and bar choiceJun 06 23:10
MinceRmib_ip7ksv: no, linux is 2 things, an OS kernel and an OS based on that kernel (more properly called GNU/Linux)Jun 06 23:10
schestowitzGet the Facts anti-Windows ads in WIndows sites (via AdSense)?Jun 06 23:10
schestowitzNope.Jun 06 23:10
schestowitzI cite sitesJun 06 23:10
schestowitzThe sites present newsJun 06 23:10
schestowitzThat speaks for itself, merely showing Microsoft's actionJun 06 23:10
mib_db6h2li know but in a dramatic senseJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXlinux is a religion?Jun 06 23:11
ChrisTXblasphemy?Jun 06 23:11
ChrisTXhellJun 06 23:11
mib_ip7ksvno more so than Microsoft isJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXwhat are ayou talking aboutJun 06 23:11
mib_db6h2lthat is what is linuxJun 06 23:11
SiyoYour website spreads propaganda. Seriously, have you ever thought about it from a more objective view?Jun 06 23:11
MinceR_Hicham_: lolJun 06 23:11
schestowitzI just parrot it, collect and organise the informationJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXWHY ARE YOU HERE?Jun 06 23:11
SiyoI'm neutral and I see it as pure propaganda.Jun 06 23:11
MinceRChrisTX: have you read the Halloween Documents?Jun 06 23:11
schestowitzFUD is PRJun 06 23:11
schestowitzI don't do PRJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXWHY DO YOU BOYCOTT MS?Jun 06 23:11
schestowitzPR is propagandaJun 06 23:11
schestowitzNew name post WW2Jun 06 23:11
MinceRSiyo: have you ever thought about it?Jun 06 23:11
ChrisTXDO YOU BOYCOTT NOVELL? NO? YOU BOYCOTT MSJun 06 23:11
mib_db6h2li dont know why people hate msJun 06 23:11
_Hicham_why do u boycott cJun 06 23:11
ThistleWebChrisTX, go have a read at the site, you'll see whyJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXstand for itJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXno reallyJun 06 23:11
MinceRChrisTX: boycotting m$ keeps it from the income it uses to harm everyone on the planetJun 06 23:11
ChrisTXall I see isJun 06 23:11
_Hicham_we don't have to boycott msJun 06 23:11
_Hicham_it is dying alreadyJun 06 23:12
mib_db6h2lits like ms is a empireJun 06 23:12
ChrisTXboycott novell, they entered in an ms contractJun 06 23:12
MinceRmib_ip7ksv: it isJun 06 23:12
ChrisTXms is dying?Jun 06 23:12
ChrisTXlolJun 06 23:12
MinceRyes they areJun 06 23:12
mib_db6h2lno it is notJun 06 23:12
MinceRthey're turning to more desperate moves every dayJun 06 23:12
_Hicham_go see nasdaqJun 06 23:12
mib_db6h2lms is a corporationJun 06 23:12
mib_ip7ksvwhat about the debt they are taking on?Jun 06 23:12
MinceRthey've given up on winCEJun 06 23:12
mib_ip7ksvor the increasing legal action?Jun 06 23:12
mib_db6h2l ms is a corporation not a empireJun 06 23:12
_Hicham_nasdaq will tell u better than i doJun 06 23:12
ThistleWebschestowitz, I gotta hand it to you, you get some insistent trolls in hereJun 06 23:12
mib_db6h2la empire controls people ms dos notJun 06 23:12
schestowitz_Hicham_: why insult daemonFC?Jun 06 23:12
_Hicham_they are closing a lot of depsJun 06 23:13
mib_db6h2lpeop;le are free to chosse msJun 06 23:13
MinceRschestowitz: he deserves to be insultedJun 06 23:13
ThistleWebI guess that means you're doing something right lolJun 06 23:13
ChrisTXwhy do you hate ms?Jun 06 23:13
ChrisTXstill no answersJun 06 23:13
_Hicham_schestowitz : I don't insult DaemonFCJun 06 23:13
schestowitz<ChrisTX> why does MS software sellsJun 06 23:13
schestowitzIt doesn'tJun 06 23:13
ChrisTXthat is my questionsJun 06 23:13
schestowitzit's forced upon peopleJun 06 23:13
ChrisTXno?Jun 06 23:13
MinceRChrisTX: no answers that you're willing to read, that isJun 06 23:13
_GoblinI dont hate MS.Jun 06 23:13
MinceRChrisTX: stop being write-only or leave.Jun 06 23:13
_GoblinI have no feelings for it at allJun 06 23:13
_Hicham_no one hates MSJun 06 23:13
mib_ip7ksvYou can have any OS you want, as long as it's WindowsJun 06 23:13
ChrisTX$50 billon dollars appear out of no where?Jun 06 23:13
_Hicham_there is no hatred in hereJun 06 23:13
schestowitz"Religion"?Jun 06 23:13
schestowitzDude!Jun 06 23:13
SiyoI remember back in 2000, when they said Linux was gonna take over Windows. Seriously, as much as I'd love to see that, it aint happening.Jun 06 23:13
schestowitzMany of us are not even theistsJun 06 23:13
schestowitzReligion means something eleseJun 06 23:14
schestowitzWe talks scienceJun 06 23:14
Siyonot any time soon atleastJun 06 23:14
mib_db6h2lin sense the religion of freedomJun 06 23:14
schestowitzNot bursting out in cchar roomsJun 06 23:14
ChrisTXPLZJun 06 23:14
schestowitzYou're very elitistJun 06 23:14
MinceRSiyo: you mean it didn't happen in the second it took to say it?Jun 06 23:14
ChrisTXWHY?Jun 06 23:14
MinceRSiyo: grow upJun 06 23:14
ChrisTXYOU SAY IT DOESJun 06 23:14
ChrisTXWHY?=Jun 06 23:14
schestowitzIt's not a virtueJun 06 23:14
MinceRChrisTX: stop yellingJun 06 23:14
ChrisTXYES, LINUX HAS A LOWER TCO?Jun 06 23:14
ChrisTXyou're happy now?Jun 06 23:14
ChrisTXhappy hearing that?Jun 06 23:15
mib_db6h2lso whatJun 06 23:15
ChrisTXTCO != ROI?Jun 06 23:15
SiyoMinceR, what?Jun 06 23:15
ChrisTXand ROI mattersJun 06 23:15
mib_db6h2lpeople can chosseJun 06 23:15
ThistleWebare we happy now? no, you're still here in write only modeJun 06 23:15
MinceRSiyo: linux is taking over windows, but it takes timeJun 06 23:15
ChrisTXLOLJun 06 23:15
ChrisTXwhy so?Jun 06 23:15
schestowitzChrisTX: yes MS is dyingJun 06 23:15
_Goblinwhy not?Jun 06 23:15
schestowitzAsk their ex managerJun 06 23:15
SiyoMore like OS X. In America atleastJun 06 23:15
ChrisTXMinceR, ws2008 has actually been soldJun 06 23:15
schestowitzCKeithJun 06 23:15
MinceRbecause m$ is still around and spending bucketfuls of money on trying to impede progressJun 06 23:15
schestowitzHe says it publiclyJun 06 23:15
mib_db6h2lso linux fanatics threat other user like they are ms zombiesJun 06 23:15
ChrisTXI meanJun 06 23:15
schestowitzMicrosoft is "doomed"Jun 06 23:16
MinceRChrisTX: wow, two people bought it?Jun 06 23:16
schestowitzFOSS renders it deadJun 06 23:16
schestowitzAnd Allchin said so tooJun 06 23:16
ChrisTXwhat does it make you happy do have "MS doomed"Jun 06 23:16
MinceRChrisTX: that must really bring back the "development" (read: marketing) costsJun 06 23:16
schestowitzMost execs say it privatelyJun 06 23:16
mib_ip7ksvDo you want to use Windows or do you want to use Linux, because no one here is forcing you either wayJun 06 23:16
ChrisTXI have no MS stocks"Jun 06 23:16
ChrisTXdont thinkt hstJun 06 23:16
schestowitzAllchin slammed Vista/LonghornJun 06 23:16
_GoblinproofJun 06 23:16
ChrisTXI just wonderJun 06 23:16
schestowitzWindows is the bread and butter to MSJun 06 23:16
mib_ip7ksvand OfficeJun 06 23:16
ChrisTXnorlyJun 06 23:16
mib_ip7ksvand office formatsJun 06 23:16
mib_db6h2lfanatics threat other user like they are ms zombiesJun 06 23:16
ChrisTXbut what does Linux make better?Jun 06 23:16
MinceRthe monopoly of windows is what they've built their entire business model is onJun 06 23:16
schestowitzWithout an acceptable Windows, Microsoft is a McDonald branch with just saladJun 06 23:17
MinceRthey're losing that monopolyJun 06 23:17
mib_db6h2lnewsflash they are notJun 06 23:17
MinceRand with it goes everythingJun 06 23:17
mib_db6h2lms is not a monopolyJun 06 23:17
MinceRnot anymoreJun 06 23:17
mib_db6h2lits is corpJun 06 23:17
mib_ip7ksvthankfullyJun 06 23:17
ChrisTXwhy questions is: why are you boycotting novell?Jun 06 23:17
Siyoofcourse they still areJun 06 23:17
schestowitz_Hicham_ is right.Jun 06 23:17
MinceRChrisTX: read your buffer.Jun 06 23:17
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mib_db6h2lusa is a monoppoly microsoft is notJun 06 23:17
_Goblinchris, read the siteJun 06 23:17
MinceRmib_db6h2l: what does usa have a monopoly over?Jun 06 23:18
schestowitzMS closed many units and killed 13 products in the past 8 monthsJun 06 23:18
schestowitzIs this winning?Jun 06 23:18
ChrisTXmy question is:Jun 06 23:18
mib_db6h2lthe worldJun 06 23:18
ThistleWebChrisTX, seems to have issues with the concept of reading stuffJun 06 23:18
ChrisTXeven if ms has a monopolyJun 06 23:18
ChrisTXwhy do you care?Jun 06 23:18
_GoblinIs chris a bot?Jun 06 23:18
ChrisTXI thought oss was better?Jun 06 23:18
ChrisTXno?Jun 06 23:18
Snowcat4nopJun 06 23:18
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 23:18
mib_ip7ksvmonoculture tends to result in stagnationJun 06 23:18
MinceRChrisTX: because it means hw and sw vendors won't support my platform, thus making computing harder for meJun 06 23:18
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 23:18
schestowitz"Hate MS"?Jun 06 23:18
mib_ip7ksvabuse of monopoly power moresoJun 06 23:18
schestowitzYou can't hate brand namesJun 06 23:18
schestowitzThey don't existJun 06 23:18
MinceRChrisTX: and because it means that m$ products are used to manage sensitive personal data about meJun 06 23:18
ChrisTXschestowitz, ayou're page propagates anti-ms liesJun 06 23:18
schestowitzIt's like hating GodJun 06 23:18
Siyoschestowitz, every damn company lost a lot of money in the past year, not only MS.Jun 06 23:19
SiyorecessionJun 06 23:19
ChrisTXwhat does have linux comparing to Active Directory?Jun 06 23:19
MinceRChrisTX: iirc there's LDAPJun 06 23:19
MinceRopenldap and whateverJun 06 23:19
schestowitzThere is no such thing as TCOJun 06 23:19
ChrisTXLDAP != ADJun 06 23:19
schestowitzTCO is a Microsoft termJun 06 23:19
MinceRduhJun 06 23:19
schestowitzLike brownie or a smartyJun 06 23:19
MinceR"comparing to" isn't "equal to"Jun 06 23:19
schestowitzMS colluded with Gartner to attack LinuxJun 06 23:19
schestowitzSo it coined a term, "TCO"Jun 06 23:20
ChrisTXnot is is notJun 06 23:20
ChrisTXGartnerJun 06 23:20
schestowitzTCO is an anti-Linux termJun 06 23:20
ChrisTXschestowitz, you knowJun 06 23:20
mib_db6h2lso what if ms attacvks linuxJun 06 23:20
mib_db6h2lwe stilll existJun 06 23:20
ChrisTXgartner is propagandaJun 06 23:20
MinceRthey might have coined that term but even it expresses proof against m$Jun 06 23:20
ChrisTXsold analysisJun 06 23:20
ChrisTXdont say thatJun 06 23:20
ChrisTXeverybody knowsJun 06 23:20
mib_ip7ksvwhat about samba4?Jun 06 23:20
mib_ip7ksvfor ADJun 06 23:20
Snowcat4well well well again this never enging ms-fag vs linux-fag fight, i love this. something to watchJun 06 23:20
ChrisTXwhat about certificates?Jun 06 23:20
ChrisTXI mean I can argument quite simpleJun 06 23:21
MinceRSnowcat4: if you have nothing better to do than calling everyone present "fags", then you can kindly fuck offJun 06 23:21
ChrisTXif samba is equivalentJun 06 23:21
ChrisTXwhy does MS have 40% market share among web serberJun 06 23:21
ChrisTX*serversJun 06 23:21
MinceRwhy have all the trolls suddenly swarmed in today?Jun 06 23:21
ChrisTXwell I knowJun 06 23:21
MinceRis it ballmer's birthday or something?Jun 06 23:21
ChrisTXsamba is no webserverJun 06 23:21
ChrisTXand actually I wonderJun 06 23:21
MinceRChrisTX: neither is ADJun 06 23:21
mib_db6h2lsamba is a alternative your are not forced in using itJun 06 23:21
ChrisTXwhy I am no ms MVPJun 06 23:21
schestowitzChrisTX: no, pages in BN don't lieJun 06 23:21
ChrisTXI deserve that rankJun 06 23:21
mib_ip7ksvapache is the webserver, not sambaJun 06 23:22
ChrisTXBN?Jun 06 23:22
schestowitzFile corrections if you find mistakesJun 06 23:22
MinceRChrisTX: you aren't an MVP because they don't "value" you even in nameJun 06 23:22
MinceRChrisTX: they wouldn't "value" you even if you were, thoughJun 06 23:22
mib_db6h2llinux is alternative to windows you are not forced to use itJun 06 23:22
Snowcat4MinceR that is just common name to everyone that is saying linux/windows is better than linux/windowsJun 06 23:22
MinceRChrisTX: see what they did to their icelandian partnersJun 06 23:22
mib_db6h2lniether are you forced to use windowsJun 06 23:22
MinceRSnowcat4: no, not reallyJun 06 23:22
MinceRSnowcat4: consult a dictionaryJun 06 23:22
ChrisTXi wonderJun 06 23:22
Snowcat4well i say them like thatJun 06 23:22
ChrisTXdo you know why I am hereJun 06 23:22
Snowcat4and it's my decisionJun 06 23:22
Snowcat4dotJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXit is 12:38 AM hereJun 06 23:23
MinceRChrisTX: you're here to trollJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXso do you knowJun 06 23:23
schestowitzSnowcat4: watch your languageJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXwhy I am here?Jun 06 23:23
MinceRwe figured out alreadyJun 06 23:23
mib_db6h2lno he is notJun 06 23:23
Snowcat4noJun 06 23:23
Snowcat4i wont watch itJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXIve got no ms stocksJun 06 23:23
Snowcat4as i notice the freedom of speechJun 06 23:23
mib_db6h2lchris is not a trollerJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXI am not payed by msJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXIve got no MVP awardJun 06 23:23
schestowitzStop the liesJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXwhy am I here?Jun 06 23:23
Snowcat4ChrisTX i smell i will get ban before youJun 06 23:23
_Hicham_schestowitz : we ve got plenty of trolls todayJun 06 23:23
schestowitzMS doesn't have 40% in serversJun 06 23:23
mib_db6h2lhe just want to know why isJun 06 23:23
schestowitzThat's BSJun 06 23:23
mib_db6h2lgoogle better than msJun 06 23:23
ChrisTXschestowitz, in web serversJun 06 23:23
twittercrap floodJun 06 23:23
schestowitzIf you mean WIndowsJun 06 23:24
ChrisTXins ervers you cant proofJun 06 23:24
ThistleWebI wonder if theres a plan for Novell employees to come into Linux community channels to tie up people in flamefests so they don't get time to do workJun 06 23:24
schestowitzLinux has 60%Jun 06 23:24
schestowitzLinux>WindowsJun 06 23:24
MinceRmib_db6h2l: who said google was better than m$?Jun 06 23:24
ChrisTXundeniedJun 06 23:24
schestowitzSo what's your point?Jun 06 23:24
ChrisTXyesJun 06 23:24
_Hicham_me who was complaining of silence in this roomJun 06 23:24
mib_db6h2lno oneJun 06 23:24
MinceRmib_db6h2l: who said not to boycott google?Jun 06 23:24
ChrisTXschestowitz, undeniedJun 06 23:24
ChrisTXbut windows has a higher TCOJun 06 23:24
mib_db6h2lthat is what christ was askingJun 06 23:24
ChrisTXso how does it sellJun 06 23:24
_Hicham_my question isJun 06 23:24
MinceRactually ballmer said linux has 60% of servers, so linux probably has a greater share than thatJun 06 23:24
Snowcat4and ChrisTX is drunk so gg and hf with arguing (f4gs)?Jun 06 23:24
MinceRSnowcat4: die on a fireJun 06 23:25
MinceRcorrectionJun 06 23:25
Snowcat4i willJun 06 23:25
MinceRSnowcat4: die in a fireJun 06 23:25
MinceRwell, hurry upJun 06 23:25
Snowcat4i willJun 06 23:25
schestowitzMinceR: yes, Ballmer liesJun 06 23:25
mib_db6h2ldie in godJun 06 23:25
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 23:25
schestowitzWell, Ballmer also shows Linux on desktops is bigger than MacsJun 06 23:25
schestowitzHe insistedJun 06 23:25
Snowcat4but im Atheist so there is no hell / heavenJun 06 23:25
ChrisTXschestowitz, proofJun 06 23:25
ChrisTXmacs plzJun 06 23:25
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Snowcat4and if GOD is so merciful where the fuck you need hellJun 06 23:25
MinceRSnowcat4: then you'll cease to exist -- that's fineJun 06 23:25
mib_db6h2lfor me god is lifeJun 06 23:25
ChrisTXimagine mac w/o shiny shitJun 06 23:25
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 23:25
mib_db6h2lso die in lifeJun 06 23:25
ThistleWebon the server share I question the Linux part, but *nix is a very high percentage. Remember a lot of servers which need to be reliable use BSD tooJun 06 23:25
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Snowcat4mib_db6h2l and if GOD is so merciful where the fuck you need hellJun 06 23:25
MinceRChrisTX: in other words, imagine nothing?Jun 06 23:25
ChrisTXamount of sold software then= 0Jun 06 23:26
schestowitzProof here: http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_AppleJun 06 23:26
mib_24oylshere is proofJun 06 23:26
mib_24oylshttp://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_AppleJun 06 23:26
mib_db6h2lfor me god is lifeJun 06 23:26
schestowitz"Microsoft's CEO Steve Ballmer had some interesting things to say yesterday about which companies Microsoft sees as its competitors in the client operating system space. You'd think Apple was their number one competitor - and you'd be wrong. Microsoft sees two other competitors as their primary adversaries."Jun 06 23:26
MinceRfor me, i am god :>Jun 06 23:26
ChrisTXapple is a joke lolJun 06 23:26
mib_db6h2li dont believe in hellJun 06 23:26
ChrisTXshiny shitJun 06 23:26
_Hicham_Apple is still an appleJun 06 23:26
MinceRapple is a threat to the freedom of peopleJun 06 23:26
ThistleWebI know Apache is over 50%, but not all on LinuxJun 06 23:26
mib_db6h2li know chemestryJun 06 23:26
ChrisTXlinux or no competitionJun 06 23:26
MinceRapple is a little microsoftJun 06 23:26
ChrisTXthat is clearJun 06 23:26
Snowcat4mib_24oyls so your saying you are a christ(-hippie) for my terms?Jun 06 23:26
ChrisTXnothing to argument aboutJun 06 23:26
Snowcat4ah you dont believe in hellJun 06 23:26
Snowcat4thats goodJun 06 23:26
ThistleWebplenty of BSD's out there running ApacheJun 06 23:26
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 23:26
Balroglooks like it's trollfest today ;)Jun 06 23:26
MinceRSnowcat4: "hell is other people."Jun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lim saying no thing diesJun 06 23:27
ChrisTXlighthttpd > apacheJun 06 23:27
Snowcat4koJun 06 23:27
Snowcat4wellJun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lit is just changingJun 06 23:27
Snowcat4if god is merciful why the fuck there are wars and shitJun 06 23:27
MinceRit's spelled "lighttpd"Jun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lchange from change from changeJun 06 23:27
ChrisTXapache is quite slowJun 06 23:27
ChrisTXlighthttpd is anyJun 06 23:27
mib_24oylsmakes it kinda hard to believe that 1% BS when you see that Microsoft-blessed presentation slideJun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lbecause we chosse warJun 06 23:27
ChrisTXMinceR, I saidJun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lit like msJun 06 23:27
ChrisTXI did drinks some beerJun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lwe chosse msJun 06 23:27
mib_db6h2lwe chosse warJun 06 23:27
MinceRChrisTX: well, sober up and don't come back until then. :>Jun 06 23:27
ThistleWebbecause God needs an accelerator to weed out the gene pool, it;s faster than watching the religious hardliners find excuses to kill each otherJun 06 23:27
ChrisTXplease, dont expect me to write it correctlyJun 06 23:28
MinceRChrisTX: perhaps you'll cease to be write-only too.Jun 06 23:28
ChrisTX"religioous" lmaoJun 06 23:28
Snowcat4god lol hes 2000years lateJun 06 23:28
MinceRChrisTX: you could at least get the facts right.Jun 06 23:28
ChrisTXok I am sorryJun 06 23:28
mib_db6h2lfor me god the is the big bangJun 06 23:28
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ChrisTXgotta get outta hereJun 06 23:28
mib_db6h2loh yeah mommyJun 06 23:28
MinceRindeedJun 06 23:28
ChrisTXI cant read clearly anymoreJun 06 23:28
ChrisTXlet's make an appointmentJun 06 23:28
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ThistleWebanymore?Jun 06 23:28
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mib_db6h2loh yeah goddess the big bangJun 06 23:29
ChrisTXThistleWeb, yes I did drink some 3l of beerJun 06 23:29
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 23:29
ChrisTXlet's talk about it tomorrow?Jun 06 23:29
Snowcat4for me god dun exist, buddhism is cool cause they think a lot, but i believe in somekinda like this, you die => you reborn as another person coz that sounds good and has somekind of explanationJun 06 23:29
ThistleWebonly 3 and you;re like this?Jun 06 23:29
ChrisTXname me some timeJun 06 23:29
ChrisTXit is too hard for me atmJun 06 23:29
MinceRSnowcat4: so something is true _because_ it sounds good? :DJun 06 23:29
ChrisTXI am GMT+1Jun 06 23:29
mib_db6h2lim a BuddhistJun 06 23:29
mib_db6h2land a hinduJun 06 23:29
ChrisTXso when is a good tiem for you?Jun 06 23:29
mib_db6h2land a christianJun 06 23:30
mib_db6h2land a atheistJun 06 23:30
Snowcat4MinceR its not true, you cannot proof it right via sience, like you cannot proof the christianityJun 06 23:30
MinceRmib_db6h2l: that's hardly compatibleJun 06 23:30
ThistleWebcovering all the bases huh?Jun 06 23:30
ChrisTXso we can talk about it when Im clearJun 06 23:30
ChrisTXI cant argument anymoreJun 06 23:30
mib_db6h2li made my     own religionJun 06 23:30
mib_db6h2lbased on fossJun 06 23:30
Snowcat4own religions are kewlJun 06 23:30
schestowitzRMS has one tooJun 06 23:31
mib_db6h2lfor meJun 06 23:31
ChrisTXLOLJun 06 23:31
ThistleWebGod doesn't discriminate, only religions do thatJun 06 23:31
mib_db6h2llove=god=freedomJun 06 23:31
ChrisTXschestowitz, read the wikipedia article 'bout rms? :DJun 06 23:31
mib_24oylsschestowitz:  If he does, I hope it doesn't have hymns... or at least not ones that he sings..Jun 06 23:31
Snowcat4well all good laws that keeps the society from falling down are early based on the christianity, props for thatJun 06 23:31
ChrisTXactually I'd like to get in talk with you schestowitz, when are you here?Jun 06 23:31
ChrisTXI am GMT+1Jun 06 23:31
ChrisTXso when do you think can we talkJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lyeah but that where wars come fromJun 06 23:32
ChrisTXI'd like to do thatJun 06 23:32
ChrisTXwarsJun 06 23:32
ThistleWebsame time, same channelJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lfrom christianityJun 06 23:32
ChrisTXwars are retardedJun 06 23:32
MinceRmib_db6h2l: human natureJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lnopeJun 06 23:32
schestowitzChrisTX: I'm here all the timeJun 06 23:32
schestowitzJust come soberJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lforgefulnessJun 06 23:32
schestowitzkeep the tempoerate downJun 06 23:32
MinceRat least most wars doJun 06 23:32
ChrisTXwars are the results of people beliving that X is the bestJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lthat is my takeJun 06 23:32
schestowitz*temperatureJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 23:32
ChrisTXthat is why war emergeJun 06 23:32
mib_24oylswars come more from fanatics that from religion in generalJun 06 23:32
mib_db6h2lyeah chrisJun 06 23:32
MinceRsome wars are the result of genuine conflict of interestJun 06 23:33
mib_db6h2lyour rightJun 06 23:33
ChrisTXschestowitz, what timezone are you?Jun 06 23:33
mib_24oylsthat tooJun 06 23:33
schestowitzWars come withotu religionJun 06 23:33
schestowitzIt's a fallacyJun 06 23:33
schestowitzFamous oneJun 06 23:33
mib_db6h2lim thing everything should be equalJun 06 23:33
schestowitzFalsified by manyJun 06 23:33
schestowitzBiggest atrocities happen without religionJun 06 23:33
schestowitzCongo for exampleJun 06 23:33
mib_db6h2lnopeJun 06 23:33
ThistleWebmuggings also come from a genuine conflict of interest too....."you have what I want and I'm going to take it from you. If you're lucky I'll beat the shit out of you as a present"Jun 06 23:33
mib_db6h2lreligion is the 1 factorJun 06 23:33
schestowitzIt's a game of evolutionJun 06 23:33
ChrisTXoh well that is philosophyJun 06 23:34
schestowitzReligions are classificationsJun 06 23:34
MinceRThistleWeb: indeedJun 06 23:34
Siyofunny how most wars are relegious.Jun 06 23:34
schestowitzFor reciprocity decisionsJun 06 23:34
ChrisTXschestowitz, Ill come back tomorrow, soberJun 06 23:34
ChrisTX*;Jun 06 23:34
ChrisTXah goddamn itJun 06 23:34
mib_db6h2li see war coming from the mentallty i am right and you are notJun 06 23:34
schestowitzWithout religion there is still raceJun 06 23:34
schestowitzRace comes before religionJun 06 23:34
MinceRThistleWeb: well, actually people can manage to earn a living without that so i'd put it in the "human nature" categoryJun 06 23:34
ChrisTXrace?Jun 06 23:34
schestowitzReligion can be costume for clansJun 06 23:34
ChrisTXwhat race?Jun 06 23:34
schestowitzLike termitesJun 06 23:34
mib_db6h2li see war coming from the mentallty i am right and you are notJun 06 23:35
ChrisTXschestowitz, Id love to talk to you soberJun 06 23:35
schestowitzAnimals are sometimes the sameJun 06 23:35
mib_db6h2land that is what we have in win linJun 06 23:35
ChrisTXwhen I dont need to close on eye to not see all text twice lolJun 06 23:35
ChrisTX:DJun 06 23:35
schestowitzWars don't come from people who admire invisible menJun 06 23:35
schestowitzThey come from people who admire armsJun 06 23:35
mib_db6h2llinux is the bestJun 06 23:35
mib_24oylsChrisTX: I'm not sure coming here drunk was a good idea if you wanted to carry on a serious philosophical/technical discussion, but maybe I'm wrong there.Jun 06 23:35
mib_db6h2lno window is the bestJun 06 23:36
schestowitz[redneck accent]me gots me ak48[/redneck accent]Jun 06 23:36
ThistleWebarms come in useful, without them where would you keep your hands?Jun 06 23:36
mib_db6h2lthis is where war  startsJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXmib_24oyls, actually the thing isJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXI didnt want to come hereJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXsoberJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXsince I was too lazy to bother fitghtingJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXbut drunkJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXthat goesJun 06 23:36
MinceRthen don't come here at allJun 06 23:36
Siyomib_24oyls, http://xkcd.com/323/Jun 06 23:36
SiyoclassicJun 06 23:36
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 23:36
ChrisTXand no once Im hereJun 06 23:36
MinceRapparently all you wanted to do is fightJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXI can come backJun 06 23:36
Siyomight also work with discussionJun 06 23:36
ThistleWebChrisTX, so you come in with the intention of fightingJun 06 23:36
ChrisTXIve gotta admitJun 06 23:36
mib_db6h2lno he asked why should he use linuxJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXI expected worse GNU nazis hereJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXI already experienced peopleJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXwho didnt listen at allJun 06 23:37
MinceRyou apparently don't know what "nazi" meansJun 06 23:37
schestowitzgnu has nothing to do with nationalityJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXI mean I can understand thatJun 06 23:37
mib_db6h2lboycott novell is the war makerJun 06 23:37
schestowitzNor nazismJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXMinceR, I am germanJun 06 23:37
mib_db6h2lnovell is wrongJun 06 23:37
MinceRthen you'd better do some learningJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXI am using nazi as a fully different wordJun 06 23:37
ChrisTXI am using it for somebody who is entirelyJun 06 23:38
MinceRso you're using words to mean other things than what those words mean?Jun 06 23:38
ThistleWebthen write this night off, come back sober with an open mind and have a conversation since we're not what you thoughtJun 06 23:38
schestowitzHow's that differnet?Jun 06 23:38
MinceRthat must be really funJun 06 23:38
MinceRexcept nobody has a chance to understand youJun 06 23:38
ChrisTXconvinced about his argumentsJun 06 23:38
mib_db6h2lno it is notJun 06 23:38
MinceRbut i suspect you don't careJun 06 23:38
schestowitzLike a black man caliing a friend "nigger|"?Jun 06 23:38
schestowitzThat's bullJun 06 23:38
ChrisTXactually that is the most retarded thing you could doJun 06 23:38
schestowitzYou curse and find excusesJun 06 23:38
ChrisTXsayingJun 06 23:38
schestowitzCheap shotsJun 06 23:38
schestowitzAnd you're crapping on the channelJun 06 23:38
mib_db6h2lok guys could we just get along and love each othersJun 06 23:39
schestowitzIf you're gonna crap in someone else's house, bring your own toilet paperJun 06 23:39
ChrisTXMS IS THE BEST SINCE BILL GATES IS THE FÜHRER, SIEG HEIL TO HIM, OR NOW, SINCE 2000, SIEG HEIL TO BALLMJun 06 23:39
ChrisTXERJun 06 23:39
mib_db6h2llove the windows usersJun 06 23:39
MinceRmib_db6h2l: dependsJun 06 23:39
ChrisTXthat would beJun 06 23:39
ChrisTXwhat retards would doJun 06 23:39
mib_db6h2land love the linux usersJun 06 23:39
ChrisTXI hate itJun 06 23:39
mib_24oylsChrisTX: you can't overgeneralize.  There are some people that haven't really got what Linux is about yet.  Or maybe they are just a little overzealous.  But there's plenty of MS people just as bad and worse.   In other words, there's both crazies and level-headed people on both sides...Jun 06 23:39
MinceRmost people haven't really got itJun 06 23:40
mib_db6h2l love the windows users and love the linux usersJun 06 23:40
MinceReven if we disregard those people who don't use computers :>Jun 06 23:40
ChrisTXmib_24oyls, like rms said, you just broke the "connection between the GNU project philosophy and its software"Jun 06 23:40
mib_db6h2lwhat if linux ruled 90 %Jun 06 23:40
ChrisTXrms said you do when you say Linux instead of GNU/LinuxJun 06 23:40
ChrisTXpleaseJun 06 23:40
ChrisTXI said I've got no MS stocksJun 06 23:41
ChrisTXso if you thinkJun 06 23:41
MinceRmib_24oyls: if there were people on the m$ side who are level-headed, they wouldn't be on that sideJun 06 23:41
ThistleWebone thing I've found is that many Windows evangelists have some monetary gain in seeing it succeed, where FOSS evangelists often undertand why FOSS is a cleaner model and want to share that experinece with othersJun 06 23:41
ChrisTXI dont make any money by propagating ms softwareJun 06 23:41
ThistleWebnot always that wayJun 06 23:41
ChrisTXah goddamnitJun 06 23:41
ChrisTXThistleWeb, I cant read ur pointJun 06 23:41
mib_db6h2ldevelopers need to eatJun 06 23:41
ChrisTXtomorrowJun 06 23:41
ChrisTXnow excuse meJun 06 23:41
*MinceR is a developer and gets to eatJun 06 23:42
mib_db6h2lthat is why we have moneyJun 06 23:42
ChrisTXIve gotta get outta hereJun 06 23:42
mib_24oylsChrisTX:  I know about the GNU/Linux thinkJun 06 23:42
mib_24oylsthingJun 06 23:42
ChrisTXIll come back tomorrow; in sober stateJun 06 23:42
MinceRChrisTX: you keep saying that, yet you're still hereJun 06 23:42
ChrisTXexcuse me, pleaseJun 06 23:42
mib_db6h2lmoneys grow on treesJun 06 23:42
ChrisTXcya thenJun 06 23:42
*ChrisTX (i=ChrisTX@dslb-088-076-040-006.pools.arcor-ip.net) has left #boycottnovellJun 06 23:42
Siyoit does in USA, yeahJun 06 23:42
mib_db6h2lthey just have the illusion they dontJun 06 23:42
MinceRmib_db6h2l: 1995 called, they want their fallacies backJun 06 23:43
schestowitztwitter: I need your public PGP keyJun 06 23:43
mib_24oylsMinceR:  Well, I was going to finish that with "but I've met far fewer level-headed people on the MS side", but I thought that might be a little too harshJun 06 23:43
twitterI think I sent it to youJun 06 23:43
mib_24oylstruthful, but harseJun 06 23:43
mib_24oylsharshJun 06 23:43
mib_db6h2lyou i love ms and i love linuxJun 06 23:43
MinceRi think truth is valuableJun 06 23:43
mib_db6h2li love apple and freebsdJun 06 23:44
MinceRthat's your problemJun 06 23:44
mib_db6h2li love them bothJun 06 23:44
mib_db6h2lwhyJun 06 23:44
mib_db6h2lthe  give me choiceJun 06 23:44
schestowitztwitter: I don't seem to have it. Got 2 messages that are garbled in my boxJun 06 23:44
MinceRapple gives you choice? that's newJun 06 23:44
mib_db6h2land i love choiceJun 06 23:44
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 23:44
MinceRhow exactly does apple give you choice?Jun 06 23:44
schestowitzI can get it from MIT. What's the ID?Jun 06 23:45
mib_db6h2lthe give me close choiceJun 06 23:45
MinceR"our way or the highway"?Jun 06 23:45
Siyoapple and choice. That's a good one :DJun 06 23:45
twitterah, so I seeJun 06 23:45
mib_db6h2lthe give me close choiceJun 06 23:45
twitterI'll send a thirdJun 06 23:45
mib_24oylsI used to somewhat like MS back before Vista and more importantly before I learned how MS operates (OOXML,OEMs,zombie shill armies, etc.)Jun 06 23:45
mib_db6h2li love close choice and i love open choiceJun 06 23:45
mib_db6h2lthei are choicesJun 06 23:45
MinceRwhat's "close choice" and "open choice"?Jun 06 23:45
mib_db6h2lits like you chan choose itJun 06 23:46
mib_db6h2lcan*Jun 06 23:46
mib_db6h2lbut not control itJun 06 23:46
ThistleWebso is being raped or consenting to sexJun 06 23:46
ThistleWebit s choiceJun 06 23:46
mib_db6h2llolJun 06 23:46
mib_db6h2lits like dark and lightJun 06 23:46
ThistleWebone you dont want but either way it's gonna happenJun 06 23:46
mib_db6h2lhow can you know openJun 06 23:46
MinceRso the choice apple gives you is that you either use apple products and get raped by apple and their allies from Big Content and don't get to configure anything; or you don't use apple productsJun 06 23:46
MinceRis that a choice you enjoy?Jun 06 23:47
mib_db6h2lwithout knowing closeJun 06 23:47
mib_db6h2lyesJun 06 23:47
schestowitz"If Ryanair goes ahead with this, male passengers should piss into a cup and hand it to the flight attendant. They can do this without leaving their seats. Women, however, may find this more difficult. They should refuse to fly Ryanair — and so should men." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202009%20%28Ryanair%27s%20Michael%20O%27Leary%20defends%20pay-per-pee%20fee%29Jun 06 23:47
ThistleWebahh the choice of media players to use with an iPodJun 06 23:47
mib_db6h2lor bansheeJun 06 23:47
*Snowcat4 has quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )")Jun 06 23:47
mib_db6h2lor amarokJun 06 23:47
schestowitzCredit card to use the toilet. Haha.Jun 06 23:47
mib_db6h2lor wmpJun 06 23:47
schestowitzLet's see the man's credit cardJun 06 23:47
schestowitzWith name..Jun 06 23:47
schestowitz$40 foodJun 06 23:47
MinceRwhat did amarok do to get into such company?Jun 06 23:48
schestowitz$500 slightJun 06 23:48
schestowitz$2 lavatoryJun 06 23:48
MinceR$1 airJun 06 23:48
schestowitzYeahJun 06 23:48
schestowitzNot yetJun 06 23:48
mib_db6h2lyeah you see i see things like thisJun 06 23:48
schestowitzBut now we need to pull out a credit card with a name when nature callsJun 06 23:48
mib_db6h2leverything in life is freeJun 06 23:48
mib_db6h2lbut humans think its notJun 06 23:48
schestowitzOr be sent to prison for pissing into a bush (Bush) after a night outJun 06 23:48
ThistleWebjust piss on the floorJun 06 23:48
mib_24oylsMinceR good point, that's kind of an insult to amarokJun 06 23:48
schestowitzThistleWeb: messyJun 06 23:49
ThistleWebit's Chav Airlines we're talking about after all, they know the clientele they getJun 06 23:49
schestowitzWet, warm, smells funny. The flight attendant would rather have the cupJun 06 23:49
MinceRchavs can afford to fly? :>Jun 06 23:49
schestowitzMaybe they'll learn when people blast their bladdersJun 06 23:49
mib_db6h2lyou know people are confusedJun 06 23:49
ThistleWebpeople would rather pee for freeJun 06 23:49
MinceRmaybe they'll learn when people don't fly with themJun 06 23:49
mib_db6h2lthey dont know moneys geow on treesJun 06 23:49
ThistleWebwishes dont always come trueJun 06 23:49
*Siyo (i=Siyo@cpe-92-37-45-148.dynamic.amis.net) has left #boycottnovell ("Leaving")Jun 06 23:50
mib_db6h2lgrow*Jun 06 23:50
ThistleWebin fairness the length of flights RyanAir do, it's not too long between departure and arrival loungesJun 06 23:50
mib_db6h2lmoney do grows on trees but many people dont know thatJun 06 23:50
mib_db6h2leven ms is free softwareJun 06 23:50
mib_db6h2lwhyJun 06 23:50
ThistleWebonly those with little forward thinking or a weak bladder will be hitJun 06 23:51
mib_db6h2lbecause money grow in treesJun 06 23:51
mib_db6h2leverything is freeJun 06 23:51
MinceRmib_db6h2l: do you have a point?Jun 06 23:51
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 06 23:51
mib_db6h2lwe live in a illusionJun 06 23:52
mib_db6h2leverything is freeJun 06 23:52
mib_db6h2lpoeple just dont know itJun 06 23:52
mib_db6h2land bless them anywayJun 06 23:52
mib_db6h2lbecause i love themJun 06 23:52
ThistleWebback laterJun 06 23:52
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")Jun 06 23:52
mib_db6h2lunconditional loveJun 06 23:52
mib_db6h2lfreehugs :DJun 06 23:53
mib_db6h2lms software is just code made of 0 and 1 image in 2600Jun 06 23:54
mib_db6h2lwhen you will gave make your own osJun 06 23:54
mib_db6h2lhave*Jun 06 23:54
mib_db6h2lthen everyone will have thei very own osJun 06 23:54
mib_db6h2lbut then the question will be wich is the best make your ows osJun 06 23:55
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 06 23:55
mib_db6h2land the answer is every make your own osJun 06 23:55
mib_db6h2lmac os 1 is no better than os xJun 06 23:55
mib_db6h2lit is just diffrentJun 06 23:55
mib_db6h2lit is still o and 1Jun 06 23:56
schestowitzTwo things you can do about the murder of Dr. George Tiller  < http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/tiller/?r=3745&id= >Jun 06 23:56
mib_db6h2li a diffrent wayJun 06 23:56
schestowitzThings can't be all freeJun 06 23:57
mib_db6h2lyes thei areJun 06 23:57
schestowitzHow would people be able to exploit others ;-)Jun 06 23:57
mib_db6h2lthey areJun 06 23:57
schestowitzI'm pulling yo' legJun 06 23:57
mib_db6h2lthey wontJun 06 23:57
mib_db6h2lthey would understand that we are all oneJun 06 23:57
schestowitzRules are restictionsJun 06 23:57
mib_db6h2lim not saying im rightJun 06 23:57
schestowitzEnsure people's freedoms don't interfereJun 06 23:57
mib_db6h2lim sayingJun 06 23:57
MinceRnah, i still have an AT field ;)Jun 06 23:58
mib_db6h2lthgat for meJun 06 23:58
schestowitzLike the freedom to kill someoneJun 06 23:58
MinceRwe're not all oneJun 06 23:58
mib_db6h2li have just 4 rules]Jun 06 23:58
mib_db6h2l1 rule i existJun 06 23:58
schestowitzBut we live in a very dense Earth for such a huge populationJun 06 23:58
mib_db6h2l2 we are all oneJun 06 23:58
schestowitzSo friction risesJun 06 23:58
schestowitzWe're like bacteria doubling in a jarJun 06 23:58
mib_db6h2l3 what i give is what i getJun 06 23:58
schestowitzcycle: day->century Jun 06 23:58
mib_db6h2lwe are not bacteriaJun 06 23:59
mib_db6h2lwe are the land sea and skyJun 06 23:59
MinceRwe are like a virusJun 06 23:59
mib_db6h2lnoJun 06 23:59
schestowitzSmarterJun 06 23:59
MinceR<insert Agent Smith quote>Jun 06 23:59
mib_db6h2lwe are the land and the sea and the skyJun 06 23:59
schestowitzBut we have lots of good viruses in usJun 06 23:59
schestowitzWe call them germs, I guessJun 06 23:59
schestowitzJust organismJun 06 23:59

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