IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 7th, 2009

schestowitzmib_24oyls: not the seaJun 07 00:00
schestowitzWe drink waterJun 07 00:00
schestowitzBut not sea waterJun 07 00:00
mib_db6h2leverything by its nature is goodJun 07 00:00
schestowitzWater if for our ancestorsJun 07 00:00
schestowitzHumans don't belong in waterJun 07 00:00
schestowitzNot sea waterJun 07 00:00
mib_db6h2lyes we drink watrerJun 07 00:00
schestowitzOr airJun 07 00:00
mib_db6h2lwait to make my pointJun 07 00:00
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mib_24oylsschestowitz wrong mibJun 07 00:00
schestowitzAll creatures need waterJun 07 00:00
schestowitzWe came from waterJun 07 00:00
Balrogheh, looks like some people need to get a life ;)Jun 07 00:01
mib_db6h2lwe are what we eatJun 07 00:01
MinceRwe are mostly made of waterJun 07 00:01
schestowitzIt's the vehicle of cellsJun 07 00:01
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 07 00:01
MinceRif you are what you eat then everyone is a plantJun 07 00:01
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mib_db6h2land if we pollute the waterJun 07 00:01
schestowitzmib_24oyls: yeah, mibs confuse meJun 07 00:01
mib_db6h2lno everything is everythingJun 07 00:01
MinceRmen in black :>Jun 07 00:01
schestowitzIt's like being in OceaniaJun 07 00:01
schestowitzPrison #mib_2243873468Jun 07 00:01
mib_db6h2lwe are our ecosystemJun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2lbut we dont understand thatJun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2lthat is why vut down treesJun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2lcut*Jun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2land pollute the waterJun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2land put poison in our foodJun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2lwe have forgotten we are all oneJun 07 00:02
mib_db6h2lbutJun 07 00:03
schestowitzFood is lifeJun 07 00:03
schestowitzBut human life is no foodJun 07 00:03
schestowitzNot anymoreJun 07 00:03
MinceRsoylent green is people!Jun 07 00:03
mib_db6h2lit is foodJun 07 00:03
schestowitzWe must be among the rare few animals that are not eatenJun 07 00:03
mib_db6h2lhahahJun 07 00:03
mib_db6h2lwe are eatenJun 07 00:03
schestowitzCan any water escape the Earth?Jun 07 00:03
mib_db6h2lby thge groundJun 07 00:03
mib_db6h2lthe*Jun 07 00:03
schestowitzOther than fall into the deeper Earth?Jun 07 00:04
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:04
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: yeah, trueJun 07 00:04
mib_db6h2lif the planet explodesJun 07 00:04
schestowitzNot ground per seJun 07 00:04
mib_db6h2lthe water will change courseJun 07 00:04
schestowitzGerms will always be aroundJun 07 00:04
schestowitzLike they have been for like 350 million yearsJun 07 00:04
schestowitzWe don't eat themJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lwe doJun 07 00:05
schestowitzSomeJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lour cells eat themJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lthat is how we destry themJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lbutJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2l]not in the original senseJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lopf eatingJun 07 00:05
schestowitzThose in tissue of faunaJun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lof*Jun 07 00:05
mib_db6h2lso we eat germsJun 07 00:06
mib_db6h2lseeJun 07 00:06
mib_db6h2lim not saying im smater than youJun 07 00:06
mib_db6h2ldont get me wrongJun 07 00:06
mib_db6h2lim say im clearer then most peopleJun 07 00:06
mib_db6h2lbut to be fclear dosent mean betterJun 07 00:07
mib_db6h2ldo you understandJun 07 00:07
mib_db6h2l?Jun 07 00:07
mib_db6h2l?????Jun 07 00:07
schestowitzMicro-organised can't be made extinct by man anywayJun 07 00:07
mib_db6h2lhahahahJun 07 00:07
schestowitzThat's the sort of line along which I'm thinkingJun 07 00:07
mib_db6h2lsience made impossibleJun 07 00:08
schestowitz*organismsJun 07 00:08
mib_db6h2lthings possibleJun 07 00:08
mib_db6h2lwe dont knowJun 07 00:08
mib_db6h2lmaybe somedayJun 07 00:08
mib_db6h2lthe Big Crunch will end everythingJun 07 00:10
mib_db6h2leverything even microorganismsJun 07 00:11
mib_db6h2lagain dont get me wrongJun 07 00:11
mib_db6h2li m saying i know everythingJun 07 00:11
mib_db6h2li just saying what sience says it will happenJun 07 00:12
mib_db6h2lthe big bang started all of thisJun 07 00:12
mib_db6h2land big crunch will end all of thisJun 07 00:12
mib_db6h2land personally i have no preference in this matterJun 07 00:13
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 00:13
mib_db6h2lwhy has everyone stopped chatingJun 07 00:13
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mib_db6h2lam i to weirdJun 07 00:13
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 00:13
mib_db6h2lif you dont like the topic we can change itJun 07 00:14
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mib_db6h2lplease someone respondJun 07 00:15
schestowitzThe sun will expandJun 07 00:16
schestowitzAnd devour a lot/all the solar systemJun 07 00:16
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:16
schestowitzOr an asteroid might hit, but at astrological scales it's unlikelyJun 07 00:17
schestowitzThe planet was here for a long time before usJun 07 00:17
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:17
mib_db6h2land humans where here before linuxJun 07 00:17
mib_db6h2lbut this is not completely tureJun 07 00:17
mib_db6h2ltrueJun 07 00:17
schestowitzLinux?Jun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2lbecause everything lies in a dotJun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2lyou seeJun 07 00:18
schestowitzOh, wait, yeah... we lost sight of the subject, I guess.Jun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2llinux is just dataJun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2lmade of 1 0Jun 07 00:18
schestowitzNot reallyJun 07 00:18
schestowitzSimilar to code.. like DNA codeJun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 07 00:18
schestowitzA computer program is similar to biologyJun 07 00:18
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 07 00:18
schestowitzThe notion of self-replicating machineJun 07 00:18
schestowitzA computer virus is simple. It's an instructions to be replicatedJun 07 00:19
mib_db6h2lbut here the thingJun 07 00:19
mib_db6h2leverything is atomsJun 07 00:19
schestowitzBut to replicate the machine that executes it is HARD. Von Neumann conceived such a machineJun 07 00:19
mib_db6h2latoms are also made out of quarksJun 07 00:19
mib_db6h2land other stuffJun 07 00:19
schestowitzBefore he went nutter... he developer dementia IIRC and went screamingJun 07 00:19
schestowitz*developedJun 07 00:19
mib_db6h2lhere is he thingJun 07 00:20
schestowitzAtms are made by luvvvvvvvJun 07 00:20
schestowitzSome people are scared of this talkJun 07 00:20
mib_db6h2lfrom my opinionJun 07 00:20
schestowitzBiology and all. blasphemy!Jun 07 00:20
mib_db6h2leverthing is atomsJun 07 00:20
mib_db6h2lrightJun 07 00:20
schestowitzIs Romania a religious country by most measures?Jun 07 00:21
mib_db6h2latoms are quarks and other stuffJun 07 00:21
mib_db6h2lyeeeeeeeeeahJun 07 00:21
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schestowitzYou have some good scientists thereJun 07 00:21
mib_db6h2lChristianityJun 07 00:21
schestowitzAnd people who sell out to SteveB and BillGJun 07 00:21
mib_db6h2lis 1 oneJun 07 00:21
mib_db6h2lnoJun 07 00:22
schestowitzThe more expensive the deal, the betterJun 07 00:22
mib_db6h2lhere whe have piracyJun 07 00:22
schestowitzBetter kickbacks for dirty diplomatsJun 07 00:22
mib_db6h2llots of itJun 07 00:22
schestowitzAnd your PM THANKED gates for "piracy"Jun 07 00:22
mib_db6h2lsee why thing are freeJun 07 00:22
schestowitzInstead of saying that FOSS built the countryJun 07 00:22
schestowitzWhat a farceJun 07 00:22
mib_db6h2lif i can copy windows without payingJun 07 00:22
mib_db6h2lthen it is freeJun 07 00:23
schestowitzFor nowJun 07 00:23
mib_db6h2lsee it is simpleJun 07 00:23
schestowitzLike free cigarettesJun 07 00:23
mib_db6h2llike everythingJun 07 00:23
twitterno, like a trapJun 07 00:23
mib_db6h2leverything is freeJun 07 00:23
mib_db6h2lwhyJun 07 00:23
twitterif you use M$ software for something important, like a school lab, they will sue youJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lbecause it is made by raw elementsJun 07 00:24
schestowitzYou can't make this stuff up: Penguin Poop Seen From Space < http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090603-penguin-poop-video-ap.html >Jun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lonly because we live in the illusionJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lof ownershipJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lrather thanJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lbeing al of itJun 07 00:24
schestowitzPeople used to own peopleJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:24
mib_db6h2lbecauseJun 07 00:24
schestowitzThey would imporr them from Africa for exampleJun 07 00:24
twitteruntil that illusion is broken, it's better to just use free softwareJun 07 00:24
schestowitzA lot of people think they own their kids tooJun 07 00:25
schestowitzAnd their petsJun 07 00:25
mib_db6h2lthe failed to understand we are oneJun 07 00:25
schestowitz"I'd hit my dog if I want to. It's mine.."Jun 07 00:25
mib_db6h2lfrom my perspectiveJun 07 00:25
mib_db6h2li dont own anythingJun 07 00:25
schestowitzA lot of people also do it to their kids instead of treating them like new members of civilisationJun 07 00:26
mib_db6h2li am everythingJun 07 00:26
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:26
mib_db6h2lsee people are confusedJun 07 00:26
schestowitzIntrospection is liberating, power to youJun 07 00:26
mib_db6h2li was onced confusedJun 07 00:26
schestowitzA lot of people don't understand thatJun 07 00:26
schestowitzThey are told at a young age to be ownedJun 07 00:26
schestowitzThe desire to serve higher goals like a "nation" (land+people) or peersJun 07 00:27
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 00:27
twitterthought in general is liberatingJun 07 00:27
schestowitzRather than work togetherJun 07 00:27
mib_db6h2lwhen the truth is they are freeJun 07 00:27
schestowitzPeer to peer.... like catsJun 07 00:27
mib_db6h2lyou know whick is the higest goalJun 07 00:27
schestowitzA lot of perfeclty able bodies commit suicide due to massed up mindsJun 07 00:27
mib_db6h2lselffishnessJun 07 00:27
schestowitzWe must be the only animal whose mind alone can lead to so much variation in behaviourJun 07 00:28
schestowitzAlthough you can make animals go nuts too, through torture and featJun 07 00:28
schestowitz*fearJun 07 00:28
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: it's a survival skillJun 07 00:28
mib_db6h2lyou know people are confusedJun 07 00:28
schestowitzIt's vain to deny itJun 07 00:28
mib_db6h2lnopeJun 07 00:28
schestowitzBeccause it would be absurd by natureJun 07 00:29
mib_db6h2lhere is the main ideaJun 07 00:29
schestowitzAltruism too is scientifically attributed to prospects or reciprocity of some kindJun 07 00:29
schestowitzI debates this as a teenger many years agoJun 07 00:29
schestowitzIt's sad for people to sayJun 07 00:29
mib_db6h2l  The Big Idea is that there is only One God, and this One God does not care whether you are Catholic or Protestant, Jewish or Muslim, Hindu or Mormon, or have no religion at all.  The Big Idea is that all we have to do is love each other, and everything else in our world will take care of itself out of our willingness to act in loving ways with each other.Jun 07 00:29
schestowitzLike characterising life for what it _technically_ isJun 07 00:30
mib_db6h2l  The Big Idea is that no one really "owns" anything, least of all each other, or chunks of the planet itself, which is the home of our species.  The Big Idea is that freedom is the essence of Life, not something you earn or can be granted, but What You ARE, and any effort to limit its expression is an effort to limit Life Itself, which will be re-created byJun 07 00:30
schestowitzSome higher being encourage love to them (worship) or selfJun 07 00:30
schestowitzThe alienation of the "non-believer"Jun 07 00:30
schestowitzWhich in itself leads to division and intoleranceJun 07 00:31
schestowitzBut reproduction is a problem toJun 07 00:31
schestowitz*tooJun 07 00:31
schestowitzLeading to wars in Africa for example.. genocides evenJun 07 00:31
schestowitzWe're the same.. just more sophisticated about it.Jun 07 00:31
schestowitz Why the WinTel axis is crumbling < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184567/why-wintel-axis-crumbling >Jun 07 00:32
mib_db6h2lyeah i know if weJun 07 00:32
mib_db6h2lcould come and sayJun 07 00:32
mib_db6h2lmy way is no the better wayJun 07 00:32
mib_db6h2lbut another wayJun 07 00:32
schestowitz<anon> heyJun 07 00:32
schestowitz<anon> mono has never been a default component in debianJun 07 00:32
schestowitz<anon> you even wrote about this a while ago, in http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/23/mono-controversial/Jun 07 00:32
schestowitztwitter: isn't gnome in debian coming with mono?Jun 07 00:33
mib_db6h2land we are all  one we would have heaven on earthJun 07 00:33
twitternot sure, I can checkJun 07 00:33
mib_db6h2lno i dont thoink soJun 07 00:33
schestowitzheaven on earth?Jun 07 00:33
schestowitzWhy not make flase promises?Jun 07 00:33
schestowitzTough loveJun 07 00:33
schestowitzTough nowJun 07 00:33
schestowitzKeep wishing from the grave for betterJun 07 00:33
mib_db6h2lod Does Not Want Oneness   God does not want Oneness, with humans or anything else. God IS Oneness, and God does not want what God is already experiencing.  Human beings claim they want Oneness with God and with other humans. Yet humanity cannot experience what humanity already has if it denies that it has it.  This is the answer to another mystery: Why has iJun 07 00:33
schestowitzThis facilitate inclination and willingness to suffer for othes and compromiseJun 07 00:34
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twitterI get 220 package hitsJun 07 00:34
schestowitzI just have this argument about Debian and MonoJun 07 00:34
schestowitzTrying to get them to use kde4 by defaultJun 07 00:34
mib_db6h2lYou cannot experience what you are unwilling to express.Jun 07 00:34
twittermono-common is not installedJun 07 00:35
schestowitzUnless GNOME drops the mono diseaseJun 07 00:35
schestowitztwitter: ah, OKJun 07 00:35
mib_db6h2lwhy do you think it is a dis easeJun 07 00:35
mib_db6h2lbecause it ms stuffJun 07 00:35
mib_db6h2land becauseJun 07 00:35
mib_485mf8Could use another big kde distroJun 07 00:35
mib_db6h2lms apply s to societyJun 07 00:35
schestowitzFeature: Linux Media Server Using Ubuntu 8.10 http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/feature-linux-media-server-using-ubuntu-810-2009065/Jun 07 00:36
mib_db6h2lyou are not againts msJun 07 00:36
schestowitzMS is peopleJun 07 00:36
schestowitzA group thereofJun 07 00:36
mib_db6h2lms isJun 07 00:36
schestowitzLed by neo-facists of sortsJun 07 00:36
schestowitzAnd at least one eugenicJun 07 00:36
mib_db6h2lsociety expressedJun 07 00:36
schestowitzThey pretend to helpJun 07 00:36
schestowitzBut they enslaveJun 07 00:36
mib_db6h2llinux is the outcastsJun 07 00:37
schestowitzAlong with friends like those in Warner , New Corp. etc.Jun 07 00:37
schestowitzIf you want national independence in Romania, reject themJun 07 00:37
mib_db6h2lwe like it or not we are the outcasts hereJun 07 00:37
schestowitzThey don't represent the US, eitherJun 07 00:37
mib_db6h2llinux is a outcastJun 07 00:37
mib_db6h2loh yes they doJun 07 00:37
mib_db6h2lthey represent every country they oporateJun 07 00:38
mib_db6h2loperateJun 07 00:38
schestowitzThe top 1% in the US is like a castle somewhere in one state (half a state) controlling 80% of the rest... IOW, it's a feudal systemJun 07 00:38
schestowitzmib_485mf8:  no, they don't rperesent those countriesJun 07 00:39
mib_db6h2lno its not feudalJun 07 00:39
mib_db6h2lpeope are confusedJun 07 00:39
schestowitzNo more than Romans represented countries in which they built a barracksJun 07 00:39
mib_db6h2lthey dont know they own thei lifeJun 07 00:39
schestowitzThey wield power over youJun 07 00:39
schestowitzYou're not paying attentionJun 07 00:39
schestowitzNot even as an artistJun 07 00:39
schestowitzThey want creativity to go through them and pay high royaltiesJun 07 00:39
schestowitzWhat's known as MAFIAAJun 07 00:40
schestowitzThey work togetherJun 07 00:40
mib_db6h2li am not a Romanian  neither a AmericanJun 07 00:40
schestowitzLike DRM-laden VistaJun 07 00:40
mib_485mf8which is why they hate the internet so muchJun 07 00:40
mib_db6h2li am part of gaiaJun 07 00:40
schestowitzBut a lot of people are not taught about itJun 07 00:40
schestowitzmib_485mf8: yesJun 07 00:40
schestowitzThey try to build paywalls nowJun 07 00:40
schestowitz"We like to get out in the public eye," says Nick Denton. When journalists are put behind a paywall, they aren't happy because "they fall out of the public discussion." http://www.poynter.org/column.asp?id=45&aid=164612Jun 07 00:40
schestowitzgaia the globe thingie?Jun 07 00:41
schestowitzI think Google has a shuttle nowJun 07 00:41
mib_db6h2lgaia is earthJun 07 00:41
mib_db6h2li am the son of gaiaJun 07 00:42
schestowitzhttp://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/29/geoeye1.jpgJun 07 00:42
mib_db6h2ljust like youJun 07 00:42
schestowitzOh, OKJun 07 00:42
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mib_db6h2lgaia was the goddess of earthJun 07 00:42
mib_db6h2lin greece mythsJun 07 00:42
schestowitzHeh. I looked for the Google rocket.. found something better.. http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/kylie-minogue-rocket.jpgJun 07 00:43
mib_db6h2lhot gaiaJun 07 00:43
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 00:43
twitterNow, I've noticed something sneaky about evolution.  It includes a plugin called mono.  I wonder how it works without mono-commonJun 07 00:43
mib_db6h2lhow old are youJun 07 00:43
mib_db6h2l?Jun 07 00:43
mib_db6h2lim 17Jun 07 00:44
mib_db6h2l???Jun 07 00:44
mib_db6h2l30 ?Jun 07 00:44
twittertwitter is old enough to be your daddyJun 07 00:44
mib_db6h2l25?Jun 07 00:44
mib_db6h2lnoJun 07 00:44
mib_db6h2li dont think soJun 07 00:44
twitterI don't think I have any children I don't know either, but my biological age is a fact.Jun 07 00:45
mib_db6h2lyeah biologically maybe you are olderJun 07 00:46
mib_db6h2lbut i am old as the big bangJun 07 00:46
mib_db6h2loh yeah sweet big bang goddessJun 07 00:46
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 00:46
mib_db6h2lbesidess for me i am everything in a sense i am you and i old as youJun 07 00:47
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 00:47
schestowitz"Install the Windows port of KDE and get instant native compatibility with all kinds of great open source Linux software." http://www.pcplus.co.uk/node/3070/Jun 07 00:47
mib_db6h2lso how old are youJun 07 00:47
mib_db6h2l?Jun 07 00:47
mib_db6h2lschestowitzJun 07 00:48
_Hicham_do u agree with KDE Windows?Jun 07 00:48
mib_db6h2loh yes why notJun 07 00:48
mib_db6h2lmore power for the userJun 07 00:48
schestowitz27Jun 07 00:48
mib_db6h2lmore choiceJun 07 00:48
mib_db6h2lniceJun 07 00:49
mib_485mf8schestowitz while that's a neat trick, I'm reminded that Microsoft "would like to see all open source innovation happen on top of Windows"Jun 07 00:49
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schestowitzmib_485mf8: yesJun 07 00:49
schestowitzI'm happy they call it off, sortaJun 07 00:49
schestowitzI worried the developer had leftJun 07 00:49
twitterWindows is a dead end, so coding for it is a waste of resources.Jun 07 00:49
schestowitzBut no, he's just going to put time into KDE for LINUXJun 07 00:49
schestowitzSo KDE4 will develop even faster nowJun 07 00:49
twitterthat is a better use of timeJun 07 00:49
mib_db6h2lyou are 10 years older than meJun 07 00:49
schestowitzNot for Vista, for GNUJun 07 00:49
mib_db6h2lniceJun 07 00:49
mib_db6h2lso how is life at 27Jun 07 00:50
schestowitzQuite funJun 07 00:50
mib_db6h2lstill geekyJun 07 00:50
schestowitzNot going downhill yetJun 07 00:50
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 00:50
schestowitzI've got some years before the rollercoaster reaches the tipJun 07 00:50
mib_db6h2lnor will you unless you willJun 07 00:50
_Hicham_If KDE apps can have lesser dependenciesJun 07 00:50
schestowitzNopeJun 07 00:50
mib_db6h2li wish you to live 100 yearsJun 07 00:50
schestowitzCell age and DNA is not a willful thingJun 07 00:50
_Hicham_and focuses on QtJun 07 00:51
mib_db6h2lheck why not 122Jun 07 00:51
_Hicham_just like GNOME appsJun 07 00:51
schestowitzLife under stress can probably fasten aging thoughJun 07 00:51
_Hicham_GNOME is taking that wayJun 07 00:51
mib_db6h2lyeahJun 07 00:51
schestowitzWrong hormones and all acting upJun 07 00:51
schestowitzUnder pressureJun 07 00:51
mib_db6h2ltry meditationJun 07 00:51
schestowitzNo needJun 07 00:51
schestowitzI'm very clamJun 07 00:51
schestowitz*calmJun 07 00:51
schestowitzclamav!Jun 07 00:51
mib_db6h2lit should sweet thing upJun 07 00:51
_Hicham_GNOME 3 will have lesser dependenciesJun 07 00:51
mib_db6h2ltry meditation just 10 min every dayJun 07 00:52
mib_485mf8like maybe no mono?Jun 07 00:52
_Hicham_resulting in great ease of portingJun 07 00:52
amarsh04schestowitz, many people like some of the visiting trolls seem to think that because billg is rich and other people follow him that he must be right and isn't worth opposing in any senseJun 07 00:52
mib_db6h2lit will boost your lifeJun 07 00:52
twitterhere's how evil US health insurance companies are http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,27753,25585443-31037,00.htmlJun 07 00:52
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: sleep is good enough a 'meditation'Jun 07 00:52
twitterthey have $4 billion invested in tobaccoJun 07 00:52
_Hicham_billie is rich because of this bad tacticsJun 07 00:52
schestowitzAnimals don't meditateJun 07 00:52
mib_db6h2lyes but this is a diffrenbt sleepJun 07 00:52
twitterhow do you know what my cat is thinking?Jun 07 00:53
_Hicham_BillG does meditateJun 07 00:53
mib_db6h2lbill gates is good dudeJun 07 00:53
schestowitzSeems superstitious to me, unless it somehow falsely stimulates the nerve|ous system , like drugs.Jun 07 00:53
mib_db6h2lwhyJun 07 00:53
twittergood for what?Jun 07 00:53
_Hicham_schestowitz do meditateJun 07 00:53
schestowitzYoga and all that is an industryJun 07 00:53
mib_db6h2lnopeJun 07 00:53
mib_db6h2ljust quite the outerworldJun 07 00:54
schestowitzLike other such things like Atkins and mumbo-jumbo medicine that develop into scam industriesJun 07 00:54
*_Hicham_ thinks that meditation is goodJun 07 00:54
mib_db6h2lstay in stilnessJun 07 00:54
mib_db6h2lnopeJun 07 00:54
twittertwitter thinksJun 07 00:54
schestowitzYoga is big business in the US. But maybe it's effectiveJun 07 00:54
twittersometimes napsJun 07 00:54
twittermeditate on this, grasshoppersJun 07 00:54
mib_db6h2lits not about the bodyJun 07 00:54
_Hicham_naps are great alsoJun 07 00:54
twitter:)Jun 07 00:54
mib_db6h2lbut the mindJun 07 00:54
_Hicham_naps are essentialJun 07 00:54
schestowitzamarsh04: yes, some people equate wealth with value to societyJun 07 00:54
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mib_485mf8And look how well that turned outJun 07 00:55
_Hicham_welcome to the world of schestowitzJun 07 00:55
schestowitztwitter: they love tobaccoJun 07 00:55
schestowitzIt lowers the expense of in surance companiesJun 07 00:55
_Hicham_tobacco is badJun 07 00:55
schestowitzPlanned obsolescence and planned deathJun 07 00:55
_Hicham_I can tell that from my experienceJun 07 00:55
twitterlung cancer is not cheapJun 07 00:55
_Hicham_I feel that I am dying everytime i smokeJun 07 00:56
twitterstop smoking, it is killing youJun 07 00:56
schestowitzMoney well spent to insurance companies is people paying life insurance and getting fries on the hospital bed early enough not to take pension funds and late enough not to have a familar to get compensationJun 07 00:56
schestowitzIt's BHUGELY corruptJun 07 00:56
mib_db6h2lagain people are confusedJun 07 00:56
schestowitzMore much than MAFIAA and MICR0blobs combinedJun 07 00:56
_Hicham_does Novell have a good life insurance?Jun 07 00:56
mib_db6h2lpoeple know smocking is badJun 07 00:57
mib_485mf8Smoking is like installing Vista in your lungs.Jun 07 00:57
mib_db6h2lnopeJun 07 00:57
mib_db6h2lmy opinionJun 07 00:57
schestowitztwitter: agreedJun 07 00:57
mib_db6h2lis it easy to trash somking like vistaJun 07 00:57
schestowitzWhich is why it's better at certain agesJun 07 00:58
schestowitzMy grandma died from smoking at 67Jun 07 00:58
schestowitzSo not so long after retirementJun 07 00:58
mib_db6h2lshe chosed thatJun 07 00:58
schestowitzMorris and the crooks murdered herJun 07 00:58
schestowitzAnd the likes of Bernays who advertised this s* to womenJun 07 00:58
mib_db6h2lno she crossed toJun 07 00:58
schestowitzmib_485mf8: not reallyJun 07 00:58
schestowitzPeople didn't know it was harmfulJun 07 00:59
schestowitzmib_db6h2l: Jun 07 00:59
schestowitzEvidence was deniesJun 07 00:59
schestowitzSame with cellphones, based on evidenceJun 07 00:59
mib_485mf8true, at the time.  You're rightJun 07 00:59
schestowitzI had a chat about this at the gym this afternoonJun 07 00:59
mib_db6h2lyeah also computersJun 07 00:59
schestowitzPeople at work require that people broadcast near their most vital cellsJun 07 00:59
twitterpeople are also not aware of the addiction dangerJun 07 00:59
mib_db6h2lthey due have health effectsJun 07 00:59
mib_485mf8that's the worst partJun 07 01:00
_Hicham_what sport do u practice schestowitz?Jun 07 01:00
schestowitzThe menace might take some decades to 'cook' if you know what I mean..Jun 07 01:00
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schestowitz_Hicham_: sleepingJun 07 01:00
schestowitzI'm good at it !!Jun 07 01:00
twitter-> "Although investing in tobacco while selling life or health insurance may seem self-defeating, insurance firms have figured out ways to profit from both," Mr Boyd wrote.   "Insurers exclude smokers from coverage or, more commonly, charge them higher premiums. Insurers profit - and smokers lose - twice over."Jun 07 01:00
mib_485mf8no matter what the reason for starting or the knowledge of the heath problems, that addiction part is going to make quitting hardJun 07 01:00
mib_db6h2li am aware the computer is bad for meJun 07 01:00
mib_db6h2li those damage my healthJun 07 01:01
mib_db6h2lbut i choose to use itJun 07 01:01
mib_db6h2lit is my choiceJun 07 01:01
mib_db6h2llike a cellularJun 07 01:01
mib_db6h2l:)Jun 07 01:01
schestowitzPollution is bad, tooJun 07 01:01
mib_db6h2lyesJun 07 01:01
twittercomputer use is no more harmful than taking a napJun 07 01:01
schestowitz"Whatever you do, please DON'T DOWNLOAD THEM" < http://software.silicon.com/applications/0,39024653,39438770,00.htm >Jun 07 01:01
schestowitzDON"T CLICK!!1Jun 07 01:02
mib_485mf8then what does it link to?Jun 07 01:02
schestowitztwitter: but it makes good headlinesJun 07 01:02
schestowitz"texting will kill your kid"Jun 07 01:02
schestowitzAll sorts of research like thatJun 07 01:02
schestowitz'popular' research.... aka shiwbizJun 07 01:02
schestowitz*showJun 07 01:03
mib_db6h2lthere  sientific evidence that pcs are bad for usJun 07 01:03
twitterlaptop will burn your privates - true storyJun 07 01:03
twitterso will a cigarJun 07 01:03
schestowitzCommerce Department to Work with ICANN and VeriSign to Enhance the Security and Stability of the Internet’s Domain Name and Addressing System < http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/dnssec_060309.html >Jun 07 01:04
schestowitztwitter: exaggeratedJun 07 01:04
schestowitzUnless it's Sony-made batteryJun 07 01:04
mib_485mf8schestowitz: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174Jun 07 01:04
schestowitzNot eveyone puts it on the lapJun 07 01:04
mib_485mf8schestowitz: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1175Jun 07 01:05
twittera good GM overview http://www.gregpalast.com/grand-theft-auto-how-stevie-the-rat-bankrupted-gm/Jun 07 01:05
schestowitzNow, about cyclers and the effect of the seat.....Jun 07 01:05
schestowitzWhy do people want to rescure GM?Jun 07 01:05
schestowitzI don't get itJun 07 01:05
schestowitzThey failedJun 07 01:05
schestowitzLet capitalism do its thingJun 07 01:05
schestowitzReplacement parts. Heck, if there's a market for it, someone will do itJun 07 01:05
mib_485mf8I keep hoping MS won't start begging for a bailout when the time comes.Jun 07 01:07
schestowitzhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/23/health/main4285279.shtmlJun 07 01:08
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schestowitzmib_485mf8: won't?Jun 07 01:08
schestowitzThey did this in 2008Jun 07 01:08
schestowitzLobbying for bailout to be approvedJun 07 01:08
schestowitzMaybe they know they are on the pipelineJun 07 01:08
mib_485mf8oh, right.  Too late then.Jun 07 01:08
schestowitzOr maybe they want to carry on billing big bizJun 07 01:08
mib_485mf8schestowitz:  I love this part: "Herberman is basing his alarm on early unpublished data. He says it takes too long to get answers from science and he believes people should take action now - especially when it comes to children."Jun 07 01:09
schestowitzKDE 4.2.4 Improves Okular and KMail < http://news.softpedia.com/news/KDE-4-2-4-Improves-Okular-and-KMail-113231.shtml > KDE takes good shapeJun 07 01:10
schestowitzmib_485mf8: sounds reasonableJun 07 01:10
_Hicham_Mozilla isn't support KDEJun 07 01:10
schestowitzIt takes many years to approve drugs tooJun 07 01:10
schestowitzDouble-folded trialsJun 07 01:10
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_Hicham_finally oiaohmJun 07 01:10
schestowitzoiaohm missed a troll fightJun 07 01:10
_Hicham_oiaohm don't like trollsJun 07 01:11
oiaohmbuggerJun 07 01:12
oiaohmWhat sides where they taking.Jun 07 01:12
_Hicham_MS sideJun 07 01:12
oiaohmI have just been doing a presentation on secuirty  that I have to present in 1.5 hours.Jun 07 01:13
oiaohmJust got it complete.  Foolish me thought it was next weekend.   Turned computer on and reminder notice came up.Jun 07 01:14
schestowitzCIO.com is a tabloid. CIOs: Your Networks have Already Been Compromised < http://www.cio.com/article/494339/CIOs_Your_Networks_have_Already_Been_Compromised >Jun 07 01:14
schestowitzODF and u/l itJun 07 01:15
schestowitzI put my presentations upJun 07 01:15
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/Speaking/2005/September/Data_Recovery/Jun 07 01:15
oiaohmThis is more a general all around warning wake up call about security.  For non IT people.Jun 07 01:17
mib_485mf8schestowitz:  made with beamer?Jun 07 01:17
schestowitzNaa... s5Jun 07 01:18
schestowitzAges agoJun 07 01:18
schestowitzWell before Web--based presentation stuff was out thereJun 07 01:19
oiaohmYes the normals update anti-virus, update os, run good quality software, Don't randomally search the net, don't illegal aquire software.  Run the right secuirty software.   Fairly much walk in park.Jun 07 01:19
schestowitzI used to hand-code it page by page before I got the tools from Eric Meyer.. I have over 100 presentations like thatJun 07 01:19
schestowitzalias oiaohm='rm -rf /'Jun 07 01:19
schestowitzoiaohm: depends on audienceJun 07 01:20
schestowitzThis talk I gave to doctors at the eye hospitals.  They know little about computersJun 07 01:20
schestowitzAnd they mostly used WindowsJun 07 01:20
oiaohmThis one don't change that much.Jun 07 01:21
oiaohmIf I had of picked up the presentation from work I would not had to rewrite it again.Jun 07 01:21
oiaohmIts only the 6 time I have rewritten it so far.Jun 07 01:21
oiaohmI am forbin from doing my old.   Where I would sit in the auduance and let a new staffer do it.   Then ask questions on any of the points they missed.Jun 07 01:23
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schestowitzThis came up int eh Novell feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI7iWozRwpgJun 07 01:25
schestowitzWeird films out there...Jun 07 01:25
oiaohmEep that what windows fans don't tell you about Linux is hugeJun 07 01:27
schestowitz"Doomed to Obscurity" - Caught up until June 5 < http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=doomed_to_obscurity_caught_up_until_june_5&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 >\Jun 07 01:28
schestowitzhttp://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_AppleJun 07 01:28
oiaohmOnce multi point enters X11 linux devices makers will be able to go after MS surface.Jun 07 01:29
oiaohmThere will not be a market MS has that Linux is not there.Jun 07 01:30
schestowitz"Got a Quad Core with 10,000 RPM Raptor SATA drive.Jun 07 01:30
schestowitzInstalled Ubuntu in 6 - 7 minutes.Jun 07 01:30
schestowitz(From pressing install button to booting up and displaying a webJun 07 01:30
schestowitz page from the real internet in firefox)"Jun 07 01:30
schestowitzhttp://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_AppleJun 07 01:31
schestowitzOops. "Ubuntu installed in 6 mintues and booting in 15 to 20 seconds"Jun 07 01:31
schestowitz"Boot time is 15 to 20 seconds (thats including typing in the usernameJun 07 01:31
schestowitzand password).Jun 07 01:31
schestowitzInstalling additional software like KDE and compiz pushesJun 07 01:31
schestowitzthe boot time out to 30 seconds."Jun 07 01:31
schestowitzoiaohm: oiaohm multi-point has just been merges into xJun 07 01:31
schestowitzPhoronix wrote about itJun 07 01:31
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schestowitz"The race is on! Sidux (Xfce version) installed in 4 minutes and 59 seconds!"Jun 07 01:34
oiaohmWindows managers don't support it too well yet schestowitzJun 07 01:34
schestowitzScary stuffJun 07 01:34
schestowitzwith quad core this type of stuff lasts just a songJun 07 01:35
dsmith_whats with the trolls nowadays on BN?Jun 07 01:35
dsmith_hehJun 07 01:35
schestowitzBooting is like a theme songJun 07 01:35
schestowitzdsmith_: in IRC tooJun 07 01:35
schestowitzLots of trolls recentlyJun 07 01:35
schestowitzAlso in Linux TodayJun 07 01:35
oiaohmThe normal stages of Linux.  X11 server gets it then.   Windows managers.  Then the feature rocks.Jun 07 01:35
schestowitzPre-Vista7 markeying slog j/kJun 07 01:35
dsmith_I see this, I wrote a comment about the article and one person said that my judgement is blinded by BN, hahaJun 07 01:36
dsmith_You mean of course, your opinion as shaped and molded by Boycott Novell. You don’t really have an opinion of your own, Schestowitz shaped it with his typical dribbling.Jun 07 01:36
dsmith_i knew Linux before you AND Ubuntu.. blehJun 07 01:36
dsmith_anywaysJun 07 01:37
oiaohmReally hard for know Linux before me first came into contact with it in 1991 started using it in 1994-5Jun 07 01:37
dsmith_well..Jun 07 01:37
dsmith_before I started cometing to BNJun 07 01:38
dsmith_visting..Jun 07 01:38
oiaohmDon't worry they accuse me of it too.Jun 07 01:38
oiaohmI get attacked by MS and Linux Fans.Jun 07 01:38
oiaohmWith equal savageness.Jun 07 01:38
dsmith_hehJun 07 01:39
oiaohmI will not claim Linux is perfect for everything.  Lot of Linux fans expect that.Jun 07 01:40
dsmith_true, its not perfect at alJun 07 01:40
_Hicham_Linux is not perfect for everythingJun 07 01:40
dsmith_but giving the choice, I rather use it over MSJun 07 01:40
_Hicham_example : gamesJun 07 01:40
schestowitzhttp://ml2mst.googlepages.com/nomono.pngJun 07 01:40
dsmith_heh RoyJun 07 01:41
oiaohmMS fans are normally funny there arguments normally have no solid logic.Jun 07 01:41
dsmith_what gives with ubuntu and MonoJun 07 01:41
MinceRgnJun 07 01:41
schestowitzdsmith_: known strategy to discourage postersJun 07 01:41
schestowitzThey try the same in USNETJun 07 01:41
dsmith_aye, I knowJun 07 01:41
schestowitz*USENETJun 07 01:41
schestowitzBelittling people's opinion by describing people as no-brainersJun 07 01:41
_Hicham_Ubuntu loves MonoJun 07 01:41
dsmith_why?Jun 07 01:42
_Hicham_RHEL have no monoJun 07 01:42
dsmith_its bloated..Jun 07 01:42
_Hicham_because MS pays themJun 07 01:42
oiaohmFor the space of mono you can add kde libs.Jun 07 01:42
dsmith_MS pays ubuntu?Jun 07 01:42
_Hicham_pays CanonicalJun 07 01:42
schestowitzNopeJun 07 01:42
dsmith_evidence?Jun 07 01:42
schestowitzOppositeJun 07 01:42
schestowitzCanoncical pays msJun 07 01:42
dsmith_eh?Jun 07 01:42
schestowitzVis Fleundo or whateverJun 07 01:42
schestowitzFor codecsJun 07 01:42
_Hicham_no Evidence yetJun 07 01:42
schestowitzMS talks to MSJun 07 01:43
schestowitzAbout codecsJun 07 01:43
dsmith_oh for codecs, hmmmJun 07 01:43
oiaohmand a lot of applications in KDE are better than the mono equals.Jun 07 01:43
schestowitzMarSJun 07 01:43
_Hicham_and Canonical pushes things to DebianJun 07 01:43
_Hicham_and Debian doesn't reactJun 07 01:43
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_Hicham_they reacted just with MozillaJun 07 01:43
dsmith_im testing kubuntu 9.04 currentlyJun 07 01:43
dsmith_it still has minor things in itJun 07 01:43
_Hicham_by proceeding to silly rebrandingJun 07 01:43
schestowitzdsmith_: that's thee anti-Linux trollsJun 07 01:44
schestowitzGot kicked from IRCJun 07 01:44
schestowitzRuns linsuxJun 07 01:44
schestowitzAnd says someone from there DDoSes usJun 07 01:44
oiaohmF-spot vs Digikam  Digikam wins.Jun 07 01:44
schestowitzThey are crazyJun 07 01:44
_Hicham_9.04 is not a big releaseJun 07 01:44
oiaohmlinsux guys are basically nuts.Jun 07 01:45
dsmith_yea I saw the linsux thingJun 07 01:45
oiaohmAnyone who had read fsdaily rules would have known not to do voting down on there.Jun 07 01:45
dsmith_kubuntu 9.04 looks nice, but I think I will wait for another releaseJun 07 01:46
oiaohmResult is always once detected votes reversed.Jun 07 01:46
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_Hicham_I don't know about KDE releaseJun 07 01:50
_Hicham_but GNOME one isn't very ethicalJun 07 01:50
oiaohmIn what way.Jun 07 01:51
_Hicham_that they don't support the whole gnome releaseJun 07 01:52
_Hicham_they chose elements from previous gnome releasesJun 07 01:52
_Hicham_which is really unethicalJun 07 01:53
_Hicham_we are in a binary world : either contribute to the whole, or do no claim to contributeJun 07 01:53
oiaohmKDE releases if application is include its fully ported.Jun 07 01:54
oiaohmIt is one of the major reason why KDE 4.0 was such a dog.Jun 07 01:54
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_Hicham_example : why do they still use gdm-2.20?Jun 07 01:55
_Hicham_and gnome-power-manager-2.24?Jun 07 01:55
oiaohmNo real need to update it.Jun 07 01:55
_Hicham_greatJun 07 01:55
_Hicham_so no testingJun 07 01:55
oiaohmEach part of a KDE release has different version numbers.Jun 07 01:56
oiaohmSo only new parts have to be updated with release progression.Jun 07 01:56
_Hicham_all parts must be updated with release progressionJun 07 01:56
_Hicham_to keep a common version schemeJun 07 01:56
oiaohmEven X11 is like that.  But to claim to be KDE release number 4.0 you have to have all the parts marked as included in 4.0Jun 07 01:57
_Hicham_and profit from new gcc improvementsJun 07 01:57
oiaohmLot of gnome distributions don't follow that.Jun 07 01:57
_Hicham_so they don't support GNOMEJun 07 01:57
oiaohmKDE and X11 really use what is called split versioning.Jun 07 01:58
schestowitzgnJun 07 01:58
_Hicham_gn schestowitzJun 07 01:58
oiaohmThat is the simpler way of doing it.Jun 07 01:58
_Hicham_split versioning is creating confusion is gnomeJun 07 01:58
oiaohmYou don't find KDE branding 4.0 on everything.Jun 07 01:59
_Hicham_better stick with one versioning schemeJun 07 01:59
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oiaohmOr 4.1 on everything.Jun 07 01:59
oiaohmEach part has its own version and basically a KDE version is like a meta package.Jun 07 01:59
_Hicham_not goodJun 07 02:00
oiaohmIt is good.Jun 07 02:00
_Hicham_the project must progress as a wholeJun 07 02:00
_Hicham_or exclude some partsJun 07 02:00
_Hicham_do not claim that they are parts of the projectJun 07 02:00
_Hicham_gnJun 07 02:00
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oiaohmMostly in cases of major need something might have 2 to 3 versions in a cycle.Jun 07 02:00
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DaemonFCWell, I had all kinds of fun with Bonkenc and FAACJun 07 02:20
DaemonFCI found out the distortions in files encoded was because FAAC can't copt with joint stereoJun 07 02:20
DaemonFCthen BonkEnc was violating the AAC container standard by using id3v2 tags on each file as if they were MP3sJun 07 02:21
DaemonFCwhich Winamp obviously understands and can deal with, but not all players canJun 07 02:21
DaemonFCso I had ripped quite a few of those before I realized what it had doneJun 07 02:22
DaemonFCI decided to give up and use the reference MPEG-4 encoder before I got any other nasty surprisesJun 07 02:23
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/06/introducing-bing-search/Jun 07 02:29
DaemonFCyou may get a kick out of thatJun 07 02:29
twitterhttp://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/index.htmlJun 07 02:51
twitter2 of 3 US bankruptcies are from medical billsJun 07 02:52
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twitter3 of 4 bankrupts had medical insuranceJun 07 02:55
yuhongI have read Brian Solis's blog on PR 2.0 and I think it is a good thing.Jun 07 02:55
yuhongMS IMO shows how it can be abuse.Jun 07 02:55
yuhongMS IMO shows how it can be abused.Jun 07 02:55
yuhongWhile Sun is a good example.Jun 07 02:56
yuhonghttp://briansolis.comJun 07 02:56
yuhongAnyone there?Jun 07 03:01
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yuhongHello!Jun 07 03:29
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yuhongHello!Jun 07 05:54
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schestowitzMore surveillance... inside the Military’s Secret Terror-Tagging Tech http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/06/inside-the-militarys-secret-terror-tagging-tech/Jun 07 07:58
yuhong"Again, this carefully evades the truth. I’m quite prepared to believe that such a policy really does exist (after all Sweaty needs something to show the auditors), but it’s likely this policy document is currently being used as an “Out of Order” notice in a disused toilet somewhere at Redmond HQ. The “official line” and “working practises” are not necessarily the same, and...Jun 07 08:03
yuhong...given ’s...Jun 07 08:03
yuhong...documented history of hired shills (i.e. “Technology Evangelists”), it’s pretty obvious this “policy” is just a sham."Jun 07 08:03
yuhongWell, unfortunately verbal memos are harder to "debug" than written ones due to the fact that they are not in writing.Jun 07 08:04
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schestowitzGoodbye, GM < http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-06-01/goodbye-gm/full/ >Jun 07 08:15
schestowitzWhat a poor article: http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2009/6/5/corpit/20090605170051&sec=corpitJun 07 08:31
ushimitsudokischestowitz: "boycott novell sucks": http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=118001Jun 07 08:35
ushimitsudokimaking waves :)Jun 07 08:35
schestowitzGoogle to Launch Proprietary Ebook Retail Program < http://www.marketingvox.com/google-to-launch-proprietary-ebook-retail-program-044226/ >Jun 07 08:44
schestowitzushimitsudoki: I get "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"Jun 07 08:45
ushimitsudokisrry wrong link: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1180016&highlight=boycott+novellJun 07 08:45
ushimitsudokii am fail :(Jun 07 08:45
schestowitzJapanese uni tracks students by iPhone < http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/japanese-university-tracks-students-by-iphones-602354 >Jun 07 08:47
schestowitzYuckJun 07 08:47
schestowitzIt's the "linsucks" peopleJun 07 08:47
schestowitzMaybe those behind the DDoSJun 07 08:47
schestowitzCrazies.. ignore themJun 07 08:48
schestowitz"Linsux has a vendetta against linux in general, and in particular even this forum."Jun 07 08:49
schestowitzYes, so they see what's going onJun 07 08:49
ushimitsudokiYeah I went to the linsux forums once - basically a 4chan-like wastelandJun 07 08:50
schestowitz"Do you think you guys can stop the whole Linsux argument and get back on topic, please?"Jun 07 08:51
schestowitzushimitsudoki: sounds an apt comparison..Jun 07 08:51
schestowitz [PJ: I suggest you search for ODF on both Bing and Google and see which one is more informative.] -  CRN   http://www.crn.com/software/217700940;jsessionid=FDYFGLNXXVUHYQSNDLPCKHSCJUNN2JVNJun 07 08:51
schestowitzhttp://money.cnn.com/2009/06/01/news/companies/chrysler_bankruptcy/?postversion=2009060112 [PJ: See how fast a Chapter 11 bankruptcy can be when the entity isn't hoping for a ruling by an appellate court?] Jun 07 08:52
schestowitzAMD introduces six-core Opteron < http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2243264/amd-introduces-six-core-opteron >Jun 07 08:52
schestowitzHehe. "[PJ: Reminder: please never link to any AP content or quote from it or refer to it on Groklaw. By never I mean until they get back on their meds, so to speak.]-"Jun 07 08:59
schestowitzThe Microsoft shills at the Financial Times do their work (for Microsoft)Jun 07 09:00
schestowitzRichard Waters...Jun 07 09:00
schestowitz"Microsoft said that software patents were not at risk from the Bilski decision. “For decades, the Supreme Court has been clear, and we are in agreement, that mere abstract ideas are not and should not be patentable,” said Horacio Gutiérrez, the company’s deputy general counsel."Jun 07 09:00
schestowitzDid Microsoft tell him to publish this?Jun 07 09:00
schestowitzOr is it voluntary shilling?Jun 07 09:00
schestowitz Former execs of Quellos investment firm to be indicted in tax-evasion case  < http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009298327_quellos04m.html >Jun 07 09:12
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_Goblinmorning allJun 07 09:16
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ushimitsudokimorningJun 07 09:18
fewaohayoo gozaimasuJun 07 09:26
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EruaranI think we might switch to Debian at workJun 07 09:46
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Eruaranhello PetoKrausJun 07 09:50
PetoKraushellJun 07 09:50
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PetoKrauswassup?Jun 07 09:51
Eruarancontemplating going Debian at workJun 07 09:52
EruaranI think we need to make sure were free of anything that has MonoJun 07 09:53
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schestowitzDebian does not have MonoJun 07 10:09
schestowitzNot by default anyway. That would be UbuntuJun 07 10:09
EruaranyesJun 07 10:10
EruaranI'm thinking of longer term installs as wellJun 07 10:10
EruaranMost customers do not update for a long timeJun 07 10:11
PetoKrausoh god, getting something done in the UK is PITAJun 07 10:11
PetoKrausi'm trying to get a sim-only pack from vodafone, and i can't believe how complicated is itJun 07 10:11
PetoKrausi'm waiting till they ask me about the colour of my underwearJun 07 10:11
fewaEruaran, what are you currently using? ubuntu?Jun 07 10:12
EruaranI have one customer with a workstation that is important to him, he only updates from one LTS to the next, and only after trialling it on his notebook first.Jun 07 10:12
Eruaranfewa: yesJun 07 10:12
fewadebian is currently more up to date than hardyJun 07 10:12
fewamuch moreJun 07 10:12
fewai mean lennyJun 07 10:13
EruaranyesJun 07 10:13
EruaranMost people don't upgrade to a newer version if everything is working fine as it is.Jun 07 10:13
fewamakes senseJun 07 10:13
EruaranSo I was thinking for users who wont upgrade for ages, Debian might be better.Jun 07 10:14
EruaranAnd of course it doesn't have mono.Jun 07 10:14
EruaranThat's a licensing issue we can do without.Jun 07 10:14
EruaranI'm not sure if those idiot moderators on Ubuntu forums realise Mono licensing concerns may cause OEM's to look at other distros instead of Ubuntu.Jun 07 10:15
EruaranIts a REAL concern for us.Jun 07 10:16
EruaranIf they don't think Microsoft will use it against us who face the Microsoft machine on the front line, they're living in la la land.Jun 07 10:17
EruaranIf the Windows 7 release goes well and Microsoft gets a bit of goodwill happening, they will be emboldened.Jun 07 10:17
EruaranThey will be less concerned about negative publicity if they start making IP claims over Mono.Jun 07 10:18
EruaranAnd they will hit OEM's.Jun 07 10:18
EruaranThose idiots on the forums don't get it.Jun 07 10:18
EruaranThey will hit the distribution channels, flexing their monopoly muscle.Jun 07 10:19
EruaranOEM's will either sign a licensing deal with Microsoft or they will not use Ubuntu.Jun 07 10:19
EruaranSo either Canonical removes Mono, or potentially pays the price in lost OEM's.Jun 07 10:20
EruaranAnd I would say to those guys on the Ubuntu forums: "I'm the guy who faces Microsoft and their claims, and how it affects me and my customers directly - Not you".Jun 07 10:21
EruaranFurthermore, Microsoft will still favor such "indirect" action rather than going after distributions as it might not generate the same level of negative publicity. Alawys a bonus for the Vole.Jun 07 10:22
EruaranMaybe schestowitz should do a post on this.Jun 07 10:24
EruaranBecuase I doubt the penny has dropped.Jun 07 10:24
EruaranI'm not sure how many FOSS people (especially at Canonical) realise how concerned about this OEM's are going to be.Jun 07 10:25
EruaranPurely on a pragmatic level - you're going to lose at least some OEM's.Jun 07 10:26
schestowitzI think they already pay some taxJun 07 10:26
schestowitzLike DellJun 07 10:26
fewareally wtfJun 07 10:26
fewamore US v Microsoft violationsJun 07 10:27
schestowitzMicrosoft doesn't care about the lawJun 07 10:27
schestowitzUnless it gets caughtJun 07 10:27
Eruaranschestowitz: The larger OEM's like Dell might, especially since they have invested in Ubuntu... smaller ones like us won't, we will switch distros.Jun 07 10:27
fewaEruaran, why doesnt dell just not install mono?Jun 07 10:27
Eruaranfewa: thats up to themJun 07 10:28
fewaalthough ubuntu is horrible in tat when you upgrade you have to turn off apt pinning and suchJun 07 10:28
Eruaranfewa: they might do that... but there's always the possibility that updates will install mono again... unless you install something like mononono.Jun 07 10:28
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fewacause ubuntu upgrades are brokenJun 07 10:28
fewathen dont give the controlJun 07 10:29
oiaohmControl is the major problem with distributions.Jun 07 10:29
fewadebian gives alot of controlJun 07 10:29
EruaranBut I'd rather not have to think about it... I'd rather just switch distros.Jun 07 10:30
fewayeah switching to debian sounds goodJun 07 10:30
oiaohmDebian still have its issues.Jun 07 10:30
oiaohmYou can not mix version simply with debian.Jun 07 10:30
fewaoiaohm, what do you mean?Jun 07 10:31
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oiaohmThere need to be a clean system to use like X11 server and kernel from testing or sid and the rest of system from stable.Jun 07 10:32
oiaohmSometimes users need higher versions for hardware problems.Jun 07 10:33
fewayou canJun 07 10:33
fewaapt-get -t testing install linux-kernel-2.6Jun 07 10:33
oiaohmI was meaning simple for new people just installing the system.Jun 07 10:36
fewacan you do that with any other distrobution?Jun 07 10:36
oiaohmIts a common issue between most distributions.Jun 07 10:36
fewayes its a valid pointJun 07 10:36
fewahaving it work when first isntalled is really importantJun 07 10:37
oiaohmAnd simple to fix if it don'tJun 07 10:37
oiaohmWith a nice graphical guide.Jun 07 10:37
oiaohmSo we don't scare the new user.Jun 07 10:37
fewain a flexible wayJun 07 10:37
oiaohmAlso there is the reverse case as well needing to install older version due to new version being hardware incompadible.Jun 07 10:38
EruaranI'm not really so concerned about that. Most of our user's wont ever install it themselves anyway.Jun 07 10:38
fewathats rare except for binary graphics driversJun 07 10:39
oiaohmAnd recent intel screwup.Jun 07 10:39
fewaalso, ubuntu and linux is vastly easier than any other systemsJun 07 10:39
oiaohmWhere some cards worked well with the new driver and not the old.  and vice verser.Jun 07 10:39
fewavery few users could ever get a non-OEM window's installedJun 07 10:39
fewawhy many of them could easily install ubuntuJun 07 10:40
oiaohmOne of the things to get system builders it make ubuntu simple to get working.Jun 07 10:40
oiaohmOr any other distribution.Jun 07 10:40
oiaohmMS really has training courses to teach OEMs how to install windows.Jun 07 10:41
fewain generall it Just Works (th) howeverJun 07 10:41
oiaohmIts the problem of being behind.Jun 07 10:41
oiaohmYou have to be simpler than you competitor to win as well as more flexable.Jun 07 10:42
oiaohmMaking the process of mixing simpler also remove the people who currently complain about upgrades breaking past simple repair.Jun 07 10:43
EruaranOEM's need training to install Windows /Jun 07 10:44
Eruaran??Jun 07 10:44
fewaEruaran, cause its such a PITA :PJun 07 10:44
schestowitz"Please note that we are getting better at fighting MS: So far they were passivelly fighting us, seemingly at no effort to them, but now as more and more people actively seek Freedom Software and standards implementable..."Jun 07 10:44
schestowitz" in free software, they have to actively fight us and spread their efforts thin. This is were we wanted them! Now all we have to do is to wait for them to run out of resources..."Jun 07 10:44
schestowitzThat's precisely what I've been sayingJun 07 10:45
schestowitzIt's a new comment: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-embracing-extending-netbooks/#commentsJun 07 10:45
EruaranI just want something that is long-term rock solid reliable and something that Microsoft can't make a claim on later, forcing us to disclose how many customers run Ubuntu and requiring license fees for Mono.Jun 07 10:45
oiaohmEruaran: yes Microsoft provides trailing for registered partners and up.  Including the means to install and configure windows without needing to enter the system product key.Jun 07 10:48
oiaohmSo it can be activated latter.Jun 07 10:49
Eruaranah we don't need training for that :PJun 07 10:49
fewa“Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy.”Jun 07 10:49
fewaholy shitJun 07 10:49
fewaive read alot of sick BillG quotes, but that is just demonicJun 07 10:50
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schestowitzI had to check lots of places to verify it's realJun 07 10:54
fewayeah dell must have caved on netbooks and the mini 9Jun 07 11:01
fewain moving to the more expensive, larger, slower mini 10 and 12Jun 07 11:02
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schestowitzNow Microsoft calls the other thing "smartbooks"Jun 07 11:12
schestowitzDell will have to move based on what Windows XP needs and instructsJun 07 11:12
schestowitzNot just UbuntuJun 07 11:12
schestowitzEEE (not the ASUS one)Jun 07 11:13
schestowitzASUS EEE - prophetic. Microsoft's EEE of small notebooksJun 07 11:13
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oiaohmI think the change to small notebooks is funny.Jun 07 11:21
oiaohmFrom netbooks.Jun 07 11:21
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schestowitzIt won't work for themJun 07 11:37
schestowitzUnless they try to retaliate, in which case OEMs should report the incidentJun 07 11:37
ushimitsudokiThe "evolution and bow down quote" is from a *spoof* interview - it's not a real quote: http://slated.org/pwot_bill_gates_interviewJun 07 11:40
fewahp mini is the only real netbook left ATMJun 07 11:48
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schestowitzushimitsudoki: that's what I worried aboutJun 07 12:19
schestowitzHehe.Jun 07 12:24
schestowitzAdobe for WIndows=fail.Jun 07 12:25
schestowitz"Well, I've had a teribble day trying to get this done! All I wanted toJun 07 12:25
schestowitzdo was open your pdf, and print out the rest so I could scribble allJun 07 12:25
schestowitzover it.Jun 07 12:25
schestowitzExcept stupid Adobe Acrobat, rather than just being slow as a medievalJun 07 12:25
schestowitzmonk using a quill, decided to hang totally whenever I opened the printJun 07 12:25
schestowitzdialog box. I then searched the internet, tried various solutions, butJun 07 12:25
schestowitzno joy. A right pain.Jun 07 12:25
schestowitzSuggestion to use various freeware pdf supposed readers will not beJun 07 12:25
schestowitzappreciated, I just need Adobe to work :-)Jun 07 12:25
schestowitzAnyway, after all that, here are my final comments.Jun 07 12:25
schestowitz"Jun 07 12:25
oiaohmI had a Adobe failure today.Jun 07 12:26
oiaohmTurns out it does not pay to do max resultion from openoffice .Jun 07 12:27
oiaohmWonder if he was having the same problem.Jun 07 12:28
amarsh04I put the Free (as in speech and beer) Sumatra pdf reader on a relative's windows machine rather than have them use the Adobe readerJun 07 12:29
fewaAdobe has security problems tooJun 07 12:38
schestowitzThey give it too much power (over the system)Jun 07 12:44
oiaohmhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/02/AR2009060204419.html  << Media sharks at work.Jun 07 12:53
fewaLOLOL ironyJun 07 12:54
fewaher and the heirs of her late ex-husband, ****Sonny Bono****, to the tune of $5 million.Jun 07 12:55
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schestowitzSomeone has just sent me this: http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-06/fear-of-a-mikrosvft-planet/Jun 07 14:30
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fewaI <3 mkvJun 07 14:37
fewasubtitle and audio track options that avi, for example, just doesn't haveJun 07 14:38
fewatime to talk to EU regulators again over media playerJun 07 14:42
schestowitzI <3  TeXJun 07 14:44
schestowitzAlmost done now with some work. Not much BN stuff today...Jun 07 14:44
amarsh04schestowitz, do you use kile or lyx, or a pure text editor for Tex?Jun 07 14:44
schestowitzamarsh04: depends on the case.Jun 07 14:45
schestowitzAlso,, the two work together quite alright. Colleagues use different programsJun 07 14:45
schestowitzMy colleague is a mathematician, so she's fluent with equations in pure Tex. Can't stand GUIsJun 07 14:46
amarsh04I remember some typesetting machine that I used that had a terminal that just showed the escape codes, so one actually needed to print something out to see what it looked likeJun 07 14:47
schestowitzKDE has a daemon that listens to changes in filesJun 07 14:48
schestowitzSo Konequerror with KPDF embedded in it just updates as you go along and if you have two monitors it's nice and easyJun 07 14:48
schestowitz``If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy.''-- Donald Knuth. Jun 07 14:51
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schestowitzI've just mailed another letter to the CommissionJun 07 14:58
schestowitzI asked again for more documents, including written contributions of the different participants in panels. What they were  giving me are the final papers, not the history of the whole editing process.Jun 07 14:58
amarsh04good work keeping them on their toesJun 07 15:02
schestowitzThanks. They also made a mockery of our request, the Zuck contribution is not even in there. I was advised by peers to go to the Ombudsman immediately and file a complaint. Why does the Commission continue to hide documents published by Wikileaks? Jun 07 15:03
amarsh04if you specifically asked for an identifiable document and they didn't provide it in the time they are legally allowed for providing it, you should file a complaint with the OmbudsmanJun 07 15:04
amarsh04some bureacracies seem to delight in trying to prove to the public that they're perfect, by not publicly correcting or ammending anything that they've previously publishedJun 07 15:07
schestowitzYes, I'm filing a complaint anywayJun 07 15:08
schestowitzBut I'm not telling them about it. I might still be able to pull those docs (3 months overdue)Jun 07 15:08
schestowitzThere's a real scandal thereJun 07 15:08
trmancoschestowitz, which was the second project named by LinusJun 07 15:09
trmanco?Jun 07 15:09
trmancoGit?Jun 07 15:09
schestowitzNot yet something I can discuss in public, but some bit press will look at it and establish a story it could not do based on Wikileaks (unverified)Jun 07 15:09
schestowitztrmanco: he says soJun 07 15:09
schestowitzIt's a joke he made in his talkJun 07 15:09
amarsh04a computer science lecturer once said to a class I was in "I wouldn't trust any expert system that couldn't provide the reasoning that it used to come to its decision"Jun 07 15:10
trmancoah okJun 07 15:10
schestowitzGit is British slang, trmanco. Maybe you know this already, I'm just checkin'Jun 07 15:10
schestowitzamarsh04: Diebold?Jun 07 15:10
trmancohahaJun 07 15:10
amarsh04good public policy should include the basis for any decisions that it makesJun 07 15:10
trmancojust learned a new word to insult people withJun 07 15:11
schestowitzATMs still have paper trail and people see what they getJun 07 15:11
schestowitzUnlike voting machinesJun 07 15:11
trmancoI didn't know Git meant that in British EnglishJun 07 15:11
amarsh04that could apply to voting machines, schestowitz... I like having paper ballots in .auJun 07 15:11
schestowitzIf the money is in your hand and the statement says so, you're all setJun 07 15:11
amarsh04as in "conceited git"Jun 07 15:11
schestowitzEven if the voting machine printer a receipt, which means nothing, you can't verified it's logged correctly.Jun 07 15:12
trmancogit* no GitJun 07 15:12
trmanconot*Jun 07 15:12
schestowitz"Cheeky git"Jun 07 15:12
schestowitzI think Linus made this joke here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8Jun 07 15:12
trmancohehJun 07 15:12
trmancoseen that alreadyJun 07 15:13
trmanco:)Jun 07 15:13
trmancoback in the days that I was "learning" VCS'sJun 07 15:13
trmancothat was a couple of months ago :-PJun 07 15:13
schestowitzVCS$#$Jun 07 15:15
schestowitzstd i/o crapped out..Jun 07 15:15
trmanco:|Jun 07 15:16
trmancoI've been using svn that past 2 weeks, and it really sucks in comparison to GitJun 07 15:16
trmancothe*Jun 07 15:16
schestowitzWho miantains git?Jun 07 15:19
trmancoI don't know, but it's not LinusJun 07 15:22
schestowitzsame for emacs and rmsJun 07 15:26
amarsh04quite a large number of contributors to git listed at http://git-scm.com/aboutJun 07 15:26
schestowitzAs of 2008ishJun 07 15:26
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trmancowtfJun 07 15:34
trmanco"Transport error (#1001) while retrieving data from endpoint `/ajax/apps/fetchAppDirectoryCategory.php': A network error occurred. Check that you are connected to the internet."Jun 07 15:34
trmancoFAILJun 07 15:34
schestowitzwp?Jun 07 15:36
schestowitzDoesn't look like it.Jun 07 15:36
schestowitz /ajax/apps/Jun 07 15:36
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schestowitzPosred from Poland (spam): "My Dear FriendJun 07 15:46
schestowitzI am Mrs.Mary Young from England.I have a business proposalJun 07 15:46
schestowitzfor you regarding the transfer of some unclaimed money in a bank to your country for investments.Jun 07 15:46
schestowitzIf you are interested, get back to me for further details.Jun 07 15:46
schestowitzRegards,Mary "Jun 07 15:46
mib_w2ec5pHey, sounds good :) you should do that, you might make some money LOLJun 07 15:47
schestowitzSome people who are new to the Internet may fall for it. That's who spammers targetJun 07 15:48
schestowitzThere's that story of a woman who sold her house and everything to pay some scammer in Nigeria.Jun 07 15:48
trmancoschestowitz, no, facebookJun 07 15:53
ChrisTXehm helloJun 07 16:00
ChrisTXIve been here yesterday already; well now Im soberJun 07 16:00
ChrisTX:PJun 07 16:00
ChrisTXIve stumbled upon BN some days agoJun 07 16:00
ChrisTXand well Ive read through it a bitJun 07 16:01
ChrisTXbut Ive gotta admit I can really make out any aims of what you'd be fighting forJun 07 16:01
schestowitzFell free to participateJun 07 16:02
schestowitzIt's a very open siteJun 07 16:02
ChrisTXno what I mean is that I'd like to understand your aims in first placeJun 07 16:02
schestowitzThe Wiki offers some background. Be open minded  because it's not Faux newsJun 07 16:02
schestowitzChrisTX: we have a page about thatJun 07 16:02
schestowitzIn the Wiki, under front pageJun 07 16:03
ChrisTXwell what I see there is pretty much against mono, OOXML and so onJun 07 16:03
schestowitzThreats to freedomJun 07 16:03
ChrisTXyeah rightJun 07 16:03
schestowitzDigital freedom and beyond (in a digital-affected world)Jun 07 16:03
schestowitzNot freedom as in freedom to buy a Chevy or FordJun 07 16:03
ChrisTXI dont understand why mono would threat your freedomJun 07 16:03
schestowitzThat's the fake freedomJun 07 16:03
schestowitzLet me find a video for youJun 07 16:03
schestowitzVery good BBC programJun 07 16:03
schestowitz3 hours.Jun 07 16:04
ChrisTXand actually I couldnt tell to understand why your site is named boycott novellJun 07 16:04
ChrisTXI mean you basically boycott microsoftJun 07 16:04
schestowitzHere is the teaserJun 07 16:04
ChrisTXand then that they made a deal with novellJun 07 16:04
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAluyt5_kicJun 07 16:04
schestowitzThe programme is about how people are deceived so that they misunderstand freedomJun 07 16:05
schestowitzWatch it. You'll enjoy it, trust me.Jun 07 16:05
schestowitzNovell was the initiator of the siteJun 07 16:05
schestowitzNov 2006Jun 07 16:05
ChrisTXyes of course, they profit of that dealJun 07 16:06
schestowitzMicrosoft crossing a bridge to burn down a 'city' where there was freedom, in order to put handcuffs on previously free peopleJun 07 16:06
ChrisTXand they're a companyJun 07 16:06
ChrisTXso of course they will try to make more moneyJun 07 16:06
ChrisTXthat sounds weirdJun 07 16:06
schestowitzIt's not about profitJun 07 16:06
schestowitzThere are rulesJun 07 16:06
ChrisTXI mean how does Microsoft limit your freedom?Jun 07 16:06
schestowitzYou don't enter a church to sell people cars, walking between pewsJun 07 16:07
schestowitzYou can make moneyJun 07 16:07
ChrisTXwhich companies wantJun 07 16:07
ChrisTXyesJun 07 16:07
schestowitzNot by selling 'protection' from Microsoft (or else you'll be sued... "peace of mind" Novell calls it)Jun 07 16:07
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schestowitzIt's racketeering. "Sell us your freedom or be in trouble" propositionJun 07 16:08
mib_vvpgumhey, i just found something disturbingJun 07 16:08
schestowitzThere is no law against itJun 07 16:08
ChrisTXbut why does Microsoft limit your freedom?Jun 07 16:08
schestowitzChrisTX: watch the programmeJun 07 16:08
ChrisTXI didJun 07 16:08
schestowitzYou'll understand better.Jun 07 16:08
schestowitzIt's 3 hoursJun 07 16:08
ChrisTXMicrosoft just sells windowsJun 07 16:08
mib_vvpgumroy, i'm not sure if you have already reported on thisJun 07 16:08
mib_w2ec5pI watched that teaser, does it mention software at all ?Jun 07 16:08
ChrisTXand actually you're free to chose between windows and fossJun 07 16:09
mib_vvpgumbut i found more proof of microsoft backing silverlightJun 07 16:09
mib_vvpgumi mean moonlightJun 07 16:09
schestowitzmib_vvpgum: not software specifically. The meaning of freedom of 'choice' (fake choice) and of actionJun 07 16:09
ChrisTXwhat fake choice?Jun 07 16:09
mib_w2ec5pwe've got that in software dont we ?Jun 07 16:10
schestowitzChrisTX: that's like saying you can vote Nader or ObamaJun 07 16:10
schestowitzWhat is your chance of electing someone not from a business party?Jun 07 16:10
ChrisTXabout 0, yesJun 07 16:10
ChrisTXbut still you are free to vote himJun 07 16:10
schestowitzAnyway, watch the filmJun 07 16:10
schestowitzYou're trying shortcutsJun 07 16:10
schestowitzit's fun to learnJun 07 16:10
schestowitzNot write-onlyJun 07 16:10
schestowitzRead+wirteJun 07 16:11
mib_vvpgumkhhhmJun 07 16:11
mib_vvpgumhello :)Jun 07 16:11
ChrisTXI'd like to understand why you propagate against MS and not watching some film about freedom in the current ageJun 07 16:11
schestowitzIt's easy to just write or say many things, but you never learn anything new to say. It's good to spend 10 times more time readingJun 07 16:11
schestowitzChrisTX: you don't understand freedom, that's whyJun 07 16:12
schestowitzSo I'm trying to help using a fun TV showJun 07 16:12
schestowitzApplies to many walks of life.Jun 07 16:12
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mib_w2ec5pwhat attachment to mono does that film have ?Jun 07 16:12
ChrisTXwhat I dont understand is how your boycott against Novell (or Microsoft, indirectly) would create freedomJun 07 16:12
ChrisTXor why mono (which is FOSS) would take your freedomJun 07 16:13
mib_vvpgummono isnt FOSSJun 07 16:13
ChrisTXmono is opensource, am i right?Jun 07 16:13
mib_vvpgumOSS =/= FOSSJun 07 16:13
ChrisTXso where is the difference?Jun 07 16:14
mib_vvpgumyou may say it's open source, but it's not FREE open sourceJun 07 16:14
mib_vvpgumread some stuff on GNUJun 07 16:14
fewajust seeing the source code does not give you freedomJun 07 16:14
schestowitzIt has many issuesJun 07 16:14
schestowitzMono gives power to non-Free softwareJun 07 16:14
schestowitzLike .NET, VS, WindowsJun 07 16:14
schestowitzIt also has patent issuesJun 07 16:14
ChrisTXso what do you want from it?Jun 07 16:15
mib_vvpgumto die?Jun 07 16:15
ChrisTXwhy so?Jun 07 16:15
ChrisTXI mean why do you care about it?Jun 07 16:15
ChrisTXdont use it and fineJun 07 16:15
mib_vvpgumit's an abomination that pretends to be FOSS when it's notJun 07 16:15
mib_w2ec5pare you not free to choose to use it or not ?Jun 07 16:15
ChrisTXwhy it is notJun 07 16:15
ChrisTXit is GPL'dJun 07 16:15
fewait is an attempt to embrace, extend, and extinguishJun 07 16:15
mib_vvpgumwhy did sun sue microsoft over java?Jun 07 16:16
mib_vvpgumthey didnt have to use itJun 07 16:16
ChrisTXthat is actually a pretty bad answerJun 07 16:16
ChrisTXsince microsoft created their own java VMJun 07 16:16
mib_vvpgumthe reason is microsoft is promoting standards, but then stops supporting themJun 07 16:16
mib_w2ec5pso if its GPL'd and by FSF GPL is Open source, and its FREE so its FOSS by FSF's definition ?Jun 07 16:17
mib_vvpgumexactly, they didnt follow standardsJun 07 16:17
ChrisTXquestion thenJun 07 16:17
ChrisTXwhy does software needs to be "free"?Jun 07 16:17
mib_vvpgumwho says they will follow standards with .NETJun 07 16:17
mib_vvpgumthey can do whatever they want, and it will break code that is not on windowsJun 07 16:17
ChrisTXyes they canJun 07 16:17
ChrisTXand?Jun 07 16:17
fewaChrisTX, if software is libre, it means you are in controlJun 07 16:18
ChrisTXin controlJun 07 16:18
ChrisTXlolJun 07 16:18
ChrisTXyou sound likeJun 07 16:18
ChrisTXwindows was spywareJun 07 16:18
mib_vvpgumit means nobody is in controlJun 07 16:18
ChrisTXwhy so?Jun 07 16:18
ChrisTXhow do you feel limited by it?Jun 07 16:18
mib_vvpgumwhat is IT?Jun 07 16:18
ChrisTXwindowsJun 07 16:18
mib_vvpgumugh, don't get me startedJun 07 16:19
ChrisTXI doJun 07 16:19
ChrisTXI want to knowJun 07 16:19
mib_vvpgumi had win 98 till 2005, then i switched to linuxJun 07 16:19
mib_vvpgumi refused to upgrade to win 2k and win xpJun 07 16:19
ChrisTXwhy so?Jun 07 16:19
mib_w2ec5pwin98 is crap sureJun 07 16:19
mib_w2ec5pand SOoooo oldJun 07 16:19
ChrisTXit wasnt when it came outJun 07 16:19
mib_vvpgumbecause i had some software that wouldnt workJun 07 16:19
ChrisTXbut nowadays, yeahJun 07 16:19
ChrisTXthen you need new softwareJun 07 16:20
mib_vvpgumand because they were all buggy, at least i knew win98 bugsJun 07 16:20
mib_vvpgumand because there was no reason to upgrade, what they had wasnt much better than win98Jun 07 16:20
ChrisTXso Linux is bugfree?Jun 07 16:20
mib_vvpgumcompare to windows, i would say soJun 07 16:20
ChrisTXso what about x updatesJun 07 16:21
ChrisTXor glibc onesJun 07 16:21
ChrisTXactually they break pretty muchJun 07 16:21
ChrisTXand stillJun 07 16:21
fewaChrisTX, in Linux people fix bugs, instead of working around themJun 07 16:21
ChrisTXin windows microsoft doesJun 07 16:21
mib_w2ec5pthe UBUNTU web site have over 25,000 bugs openJun 07 16:21
fewamib_w2ec5p, microsoft hides window's defectsJun 07 16:21
ChrisTXso question: why does this limit your freedomJun 07 16:21
ChrisTX?Jun 07 16:21
schestowitzUbuntu comes with 1000s of appsJun 07 16:22
mib_w2ec5pthey sure do,Jun 07 16:22
schestowitzAnd there are dupes in bug reportsJun 07 16:22
ChrisTXso why? cause you can't fix the bugs yourself?Jun 07 16:22
ChrisTX<@schestowitz> Ubuntu comes with 1000s of apps <- and? all available for windowsJun 07 16:22
ChrisTXno point why Microsoft would limit your freedomJun 07 16:22
twitterM$Jun 07 16:23
ChrisTXM$ ?Jun 07 16:23
ChrisTXwhat is thatJun 07 16:23
ChrisTXtelling me Microsoft is a company?Jun 07 16:23
twitterIt is pronounced "shit"Jun 07 16:23
twitterbut the $ tells you what it's all about.Jun 07 16:23
ChrisTXyou are spreading hateJun 07 16:23
ChrisTXtwitter, uhmJun 07 16:23
twittertruthJun 07 16:23
ChrisTXI dont think you understood how capitalism worksJun 07 16:24
mib_vvpgumwhat's wrong with spreading hate when it's deserved?Jun 07 16:24
fewaChrisTX, you are promoting subservianceJun 07 16:24
ChrisTX* you haveJun 07 16:24
twitterI understand M$'s crimesJun 07 16:24
ChrisTXahaJun 07 16:24
ChrisTXcrimesJun 07 16:24
ChrisTXso what crimes?Jun 07 16:24
mib_vvpgumnot following standards for oneJun 07 16:25
mib_w2ec5pIf i dont like some company II just dont use them, but i dont see it as a loss of my freedomJun 07 16:25
ChrisTXso that is a crime?Jun 07 16:25
twitterthe destruction of American companies, and personal attacks around the worldJun 07 16:25
ChrisTXloss of your freedomJun 07 16:25
ChrisTXlolJun 07 16:25
fewamib_w2ec5p, so if there is one country on earth that will take you then that is freedom? The mere fact that some place is free means you are free?Jun 07 16:25
twitterthere are laws against M$'s anti-competitive practicesJun 07 16:25
twitterand M$ has been convicted of violating them on many occasionsJun 07 16:26
ChrisTXyes but capitalism works like thisJun 07 16:26
mib_w2ec5plike any company or not, I like that I am free to use them or notJun 07 16:26
twittercrime works like that, ChrisJun 07 16:26
ChrisTXplease, saying "M$" is ignorantJun 07 16:26
ChrisTXyes crimeJun 07 16:26
twittersociety protects itself from criminalsJun 07 16:26
ChrisTXquestion: why would I careJun 07 16:26
ChrisTX?Jun 07 16:26
twitterdo you like muggers and rapists?Jun 07 16:26
fewaChrisTX, capitalism and extortion are two differnt thingsJun 07 16:26
mib_vvpgumquestion why would we care what you think?Jun 07 16:26
twitterthey are capitalists, are they not?Jun 07 16:27
mib_vvpgumwe are not obligated to convince you in anythingJun 07 16:27
fewaChrisTX, microsoft threats to leave the US unless it gets an unfair dealJun 07 16:27
mib_w2ec5pno i dont like muggers and rapists, and if they were selling software I would not buy it.Jun 07 16:27
fewaChrisTX, that is not capatalismJun 07 16:27
mib_w2ec5pthats my freedomJun 07 16:27
ChrisTXno?Jun 07 16:27
twitternoJun 07 16:27
ChrisTXhow old are you?Jun 07 16:27
twitternone of your business and irrelevantJun 07 16:27
mib_vvpgumdo you want a phonenumber and an adress too? :)Jun 07 16:27
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ChrisTXnow you're very clever, Ive got to admit thatJun 07 16:28
ChrisTXyesJun 07 16:28
mib_vvpgumbut?Jun 07 16:28
*mib_afir4i is now known as aTrJun 07 16:28
ChrisTXso actually I feel my freedoms cut by your propagandaJun 07 16:28
ChrisTXplease stop spreading anti-Microsoft FUDJun 07 16:28
*mib_vvpgum is now known as hexxJun 07 16:28
fewaChrisTX, how does another persons opinion hamper your freedomJun 07 16:28
twitteryou don't have the freedom to harm others, society protects itself.Jun 07 16:28
twitterpart of that protection is understanding the crimeJun 07 16:29
twitterBN does that wellJun 07 16:29
ChrisTXfewa, question returnedJun 07 16:29
twitterpiss offJun 07 16:29
ChrisTXwhy does Microsoft limit your freedomJun 07 16:29
twitterfor fun and profit, much like muggers and rapistsJun 07 16:29
hexxwhy do you care?Jun 07 16:29
hexxyou seem to ask many questions, why dont you answer someJun 07 16:29
ChrisTXtwitter, I dont think you have understood that nobody beside GNU actually caresJun 07 16:29
ChrisTXwhy I careJun 07 16:29
hexxyes, why do you careJun 07 16:30
ChrisTXwell are you aware of making people hate oss?Jun 07 16:30
hexxwhy do you care what we thinkJun 07 16:30
ChrisTXcause you spread propagandaJun 07 16:30
twitterif no one cares, why are you here to tell us to shut up?Jun 07 16:30
ChrisTXBN is propagandaJun 07 16:30
hexxso, you like OSS?Jun 07 16:30
twitterbe specific, assJun 07 16:30
ChrisTXwell, yeah I doJun 07 16:30
hexxwhat OS are you usingJun 07 16:30
ChrisTXbut I hate people spreading propaganda against itJun 07 16:30
hexxwhat software are you makingJun 07 16:30
fewaChrisTX, against it?Jun 07 16:30
ChrisTXIm using Windows Server 2008 atmJun 07 16:31
twitterIf you have a factual problem, submit it.Jun 07 16:31
ChrisTXfewa, I mean for itJun 07 16:31
ChrisTXthe factual problem isJun 07 16:31
ChrisTXthat you think people in the worldJun 07 16:31
ChrisTXgive a fuck whether their software is freeJun 07 16:31
twitterHere's an interesting tear down of the Palm Pre http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/06/07/palm_pre_teardown_shows_iphone_inspired_design.htmlJun 07 16:31
fewaChrisTX, you said that you hate people critisizing Free software, but they you yourself are questioning itJun 07 16:31
ChrisTXit is a simple logic: people work and sell their workJun 07 16:31
ChrisTXso does MSJun 07 16:31
fewaChrisTX, do you hate yourselfJun 07 16:31
hexxpeople?Jun 07 16:32
hexxwe are not doing it, are we not people?Jun 07 16:32
hexxall the FOSS contributors are not people then?Jun 07 16:32
ChrisTXfewa, no I didnt say that, misunderstanding thenJun 07 16:32
ChrisTXhexx, FOSS gives people the ability to choseJun 07 16:32
hexxno, competition gives people the ability to chooseJun 07 16:32
ChrisTXbut not using FOSS is not something that would limit the freedom of the userJun 07 16:32
hexxFOSS gives people the freedom to mess with the code and release it againJun 07 16:32
ChrisTXactually right that is the freedomJun 07 16:32
ChrisTXthe freedom of choseJun 07 16:33
hexxthat is one the many freedomsJun 07 16:33
ChrisTXhexx, yes, but do you think the world cares?Jun 07 16:33
ChrisTXthat is no freedom fyiJun 07 16:33
ChrisTXthat is a chanceJun 07 16:33
ChrisTXbut not freedomJun 07 16:33
ChrisTXpeople who work at microsoft or other companiesJun 07 16:33
hexxim a developer, i care about these thingsJun 07 16:33
mib_w2ec5pthe "freedom" in FOSS is the freedom to view and modify the codeJun 07 16:33
hexxmany developers careJun 07 16:33
ChrisTXdevelop algorithms and stuffJun 07 16:33
ChrisTXand technologiesJun 07 16:34
ChrisTXand they have to not to share themJun 07 16:34
mib_w2ec5ptherefore, "free as in speech but not as in beer"Jun 07 16:34
ChrisTXcause else capitalism does not workJun 07 16:34
hexxcapitalism doesn't work PERIODJun 07 16:34
ChrisTXso let us come back to my initial questionJun 07 16:34
twittershestowitz, what free software talks to Pre?Jun 07 16:34
fewaChrisTX, in what ways does limiting competition promote capatalism?Jun 07 16:34
ChrisTXwhat are you fighting for?Jun 07 16:34
ChrisTXfewa, ?Jun 07 16:34
ChrisTXI dont think you have understood what I saidJun 07 16:35
fewaChrisTX, you are saying that monopolies promote capatalismJun 07 16:35
hexxwe are fighting for having more likeminded people on our sideJun 07 16:35
hexxit's a PR warJun 07 16:35
fewaChrisTX, you are arguing that monopolies are goodJun 07 16:35
mib_w2ec5pany company that turns over capital is promoting capitalismJun 07 16:35
ChrisTXhow is microsoft a monopoly, if you can choose to use FOSS or other softwareJun 07 16:35
mib_w2ec5pits not a monopolyJun 07 16:36
fewaChrisTX, you are arguing for Copyright and Patents, these are monopoliesJun 07 16:36
ChrisTXand now imagine microsoft would die, how would that increase your freedom?Jun 07 16:36
ChrisTXso waitJun 07 16:36
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ChrisTXpatents are thereJun 07 16:36
ChrisTXso that people cannot copy the stuff others inventedJun 07 16:36
ChrisTXand when you say thatJun 07 16:36
hexxpatents are an abominationJun 07 16:36
ChrisTXhmm shut down your computer, your processor for example is patentedJun 07 16:36
hexxsoftware patents that isJun 07 16:37
mib_w2ec5pand they are the lawJun 07 16:37
fewaChrisTX, how does that increase peoples lives, preventing them from using collective knowledgeJun 07 16:37
ChrisTXsoftware patentsJun 07 16:37
ChrisTXright there we areJun 07 16:37
ChrisTXehm now where is the difference between software and hardware?Jun 07 16:37
hexxmany so called "inventions" are no more than common senseJun 07 16:37
ChrisTXin means of patentsJun 07 16:37
ChrisTXis that so?Jun 07 16:37
fewaChrisTX, software is a mathmatical algorythmJun 07 16:37
ChrisTXso an engine is common sense too?Jun 07 16:37
fewaChrisTX, its numbers, its a formulaJun 07 16:38
ChrisTXyes that makes no senseJun 07 16:38
fewaChrisTX, and all software is an ideaJun 07 16:38
ChrisTXthat is an abritrary limit YOU setJun 07 16:38
ChrisTXso are all inventionsJun 07 16:38
ChrisTXlolJun 07 16:38
mib_w2ec5pan atomic bomb is a mathmatical algorythm as well, so is the brake on your care, and the shape of y our houseJun 07 16:38
fewamib_w2ec5p, but those are not absolute sciencesJun 07 16:38
ChrisTXwhere is the differenceJun 07 16:39
ChrisTXnow I meanJun 07 16:39
ChrisTXyou can say as well that when GM makes a patent on their engineJun 07 16:39
hexxwhy people in one field get to OWN their inventions but not in other fieldsJun 07 16:39
ChrisTXthat others cannot use itJun 07 16:39
ChrisTXbut that is how capitalism worksJun 07 16:39
hexxcapitalism doesnt workJun 07 16:39
ChrisTXso what does work then?Jun 07 16:40
hexxsociety is in a constant state of changeJun 07 16:40
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fewadistinction between mathematical algorithms and nonmathematical algorithms. To a computer scientist, this makes no sense, because every algorithm is as mathematical as anything could be.Jun 07 16:40
hexxfrom one form of government to the nextJun 07 16:40
mib_w2ec5pdo you work hexx ?Jun 07 16:40
ChrisTXhexx, so to what shall it change?Jun 07 16:40
hexxit changes by itselfJun 07 16:41
hexxit's not the question of what should it change, it just changesJun 07 16:41
ChrisTXso but it shall improve, right?Jun 07 16:41
hexxsociety is like a organism in a sense it evolves over timeJun 07 16:41
ChrisTXso to what shall it evolve?Jun 07 16:41
hexxso capitalism is only one step among those changes, there may be other forms that come afterJun 07 16:42
ChrisTXyou say it evolves, yes that's general knowledgeJun 07 16:42
ChrisTXso you want communism?Jun 07 16:42
hexxno, communism failedJun 07 16:42
ChrisTXso what would you suggest then?Jun 07 16:42
hexxbut given that we both agree that society evolves, capitalism is not the final goalJun 07 16:42
fewaChrisTX, you dont know what communism isJun 07 16:43
ChrisTXI am no pro-capitalistJun 07 16:43
ChrisTXoh I dont?Jun 07 16:43
ChrisTXthanks for telling meJun 07 16:43
ChrisTXI didn't know thatJun 07 16:43
neighborleehexx: god I hope so :)Jun 07 16:43
neighborleecapit. bites ;0-=Jun 07 16:43
hexxso there is no point defending capitalismJun 07 16:43
neighborleeIT's so far removed from the system we needs, its not even funnyJun 07 16:43
hexxthere may be other BETTER ways of doing thingsJun 07 16:43
ChrisTXhexx, no who wanted to defend itJun 07 16:44
mib_w2ec5ppropose an alternative then !Jun 07 16:44
ChrisTXI was asking for a suggestion for a better systemJun 07 16:44
ChrisTXthat it isJun 07 16:44
hexxso FOSS maybe one model that works better than capitalismJun 07 16:44
hexxtime will tellJun 07 16:44
fewacommunism is the crushing oppression of the stateJun 07 16:44
ChrisTXso you want the world to be FOSS?Jun 07 16:44
hexxno, it's a possible alternative to capitalismJun 07 16:44
neighborleeChrisTX: there is no reason it can't be...in time...Jun 07 16:44
mib_w2ec5phow ?Jun 07 16:44
ChrisTXwhat the hell are you talking aboutJun 07 16:45
hexxglobal collaborationJun 07 16:45
ChrisTXFOSS being an alternative to capitalismJun 07 16:45
ChrisTXlmaoJun 07 16:45
neighborleehexx: exactlyJun 07 16:45
neighborleeChrisTX: in your world maybe..not oursJun 07 16:45
ChrisTXso you live on mars?Jun 07 16:45
neighborleeyes, cant you tellJun 07 16:45
hexxpeople live in their headsJun 07 16:45
neighborleeChrisTX: and maybe you venusJun 07 16:45
hexxwhat in mine head is different than in your headJun 07 16:45
mib_r2r3bkthe world should be like the BSD licenceJun 07 16:45
mib_w2ec5pisnt that socialism ? all working for the collective ?Jun 07 16:45
mib_r2r3bkanarchistJun 07 16:45
hexxso we could as well live in different worldsJun 07 16:46
mib_r2r3bklolJun 07 16:46
ChrisTXok people live in their headsJun 07 16:46
ChrisTXstill they live in the worldJun 07 16:46
fewamib_w2ec5p, collective is the state, the freedom of people to associate and use knowledge around them is not thatJun 07 16:46
mib_w2ec5pdo we get the right to choose, in this new FOSS world order ?Jun 07 16:47
ChrisTXso how shall the FOSS world look like?Jun 07 16:47
ChrisTXtemples with R. Stallman as god?Jun 07 16:47
neighborleemib_r2r3bk: bsd rocks,,,,total freedom has great merit ;) < and we hope people do whats right with it>Jun 07 16:47
hexxhow would we knowJun 07 16:47
schestowitztwitter: Pre is not very free software-friendly (WebOS that is)Jun 07 16:47
neighborleeChrisTX: be careful whom you elevate as god.you might get what you wish ;)Jun 07 16:47
mib_w2ec5pmeans if im hungry i can walk into your house and take the food out of your fridge !Jun 07 16:47
schestowitzBut Palm can give patches to Linux. Maybe it already had.Jun 07 16:47
ChrisTXwhat the hellJun 07 16:48
schestowitzit's also a good markting opportunity for usJun 07 16:48
ChrisTXhave you guys drunk somethink?Jun 07 16:48
schestowitzThe LF uses itJun 07 16:48
fewaChrisTX, you are the one drinkingJun 07 16:48
schestowitzYesterday: http://www.linux-foundation.org/weblogs/jzemlin/2009/06/05/the-week-of-the-linux-desktop/Jun 07 16:48
mib_w2ec5pim sure he ment thinking !Jun 07 16:48
schestowitz"Palm started selling its ambitious new smartphone product this week to strong reviews. Palm has bet the company on the Pre and it shows. The device has tremendous potential with slick industrial design and a solid Linux based software platform. "Jun 07 16:48
ChrisTXoh you're smoking weed then?Jun 07 16:48
neighborleeChrisTX: sounds like you need some more than we do o_0Jun 07 16:48
amarsh04ChrisTX, like a healthy society with a fair amount of work done by volunteers, people helping themselves and people doing paid workJun 07 16:48
fewaChrisTX, you are arguing for government mandating monopolies and then accuse FOSS of communismJun 07 16:48
ChrisTXsome more weed?Jun 07 16:48
ChrisTXdo I get it free?Jun 07 16:48
ChrisTXcause if not I dont feel my freedoms respectedJun 07 16:49
neighborleebe careful what you wish for LOLJun 07 16:49
fewaChrisTX, do you define freedom as the ability to restrict what others can do?Jun 07 16:49
ChrisTXfewa, lol did IJun 07 16:49
ChrisTXcant remember having said thatJun 07 16:49
hexxChrisTX, the problem I have with MS is not that I hate them, it's because they hate FOSSJun 07 16:50
mib_w2ec5pits a bit utopian to turn a software license into a political movement and structureJun 07 16:50
ChrisTXyes why wouldnt theyJun 07 16:50
neighborleeyou meah we dont all hate microsoft ??Jun 07 16:50
ChrisTXit isJun 07 16:50
neighborleehmmm maybe we're all on drugs or something....Jun 07 16:50
neighborleeo_0Jun 07 16:50
ChrisTXyesJun 07 16:50
hexxso why is it ok for ms to hate foss, but not ok for us to hate msJun 07 16:50
ChrisTXcause you are not losing money by ms existingJun 07 16:51
schestowitzChrisTX: you're cursingJun 07 16:51
hexxso money is everythign to you?Jun 07 16:51
neighborleelosing freedomJun 07 16:51
mib_w2ec5pFunny i have not seen the MS boycottFOSS siteJun 07 16:51
ChrisTXI am cursingJun 07 16:51
schestowitzWe don't do that spiel hereJun 07 16:51
ChrisTXhahahahaJun 07 16:51
mib_w2ec5pwhats the URL ?Jun 07 16:51
schestowitzyes, you areJun 07 16:51
fewaChrisTX, so money is better than freedom?Jun 07 16:51
ChrisTXschestowitz, what spiel do you do then?Jun 07 16:51
ChrisTXfewa, as I said, capitalismJun 07 16:51
schestowitzYou were not just drunk yesterdayJun 07 16:51
schestowitzYou're just a bad person, sober or drunkJun 07 16:51
ChrisTXa bad personJun 07 16:52
ChrisTXwhy so?Jun 07 16:52
schestowitzAll the Linux channels kicked youJun 07 16:52
ChrisTXdid they?Jun 07 16:52
schestowitzFind a Windows channelJun 07 16:52
ChrisTXnew to me tooJun 07 16:52
ChrisTXehmJun 07 16:52
schestowitzSpeak aout 1337 Solitair and stuffJun 07 16:52
schestowitz*taireJun 07 16:52
neighborleehmm so you  like capitalism...bills best bud ? < you do like MJ afterall >Jun 07 16:52
ChrisTXschestowitz, I came here to understood why you hate msJun 07 16:52
*neighborlee could not resist that..sorry those whom had to listen...even you chrisJun 07 16:52
ChrisTXbut all I got was garbage like "world being in FOSS than capitalism"Jun 07 16:52
ChrisTXthat it isJun 07 16:52
schestowitzNo, you came here  to trollJun 07 16:53
fewaneighborlee, capatalism is not government mandated monopoly, Microsoft is not for capatalismJun 07 16:53
AondoChrisTX, i dint think it is about hate, but about survival... ms just happen to be a bug in the way.Jun 07 16:53
schestowitzAnd that's what you do. Troll for the crowd you bring here with you.Jun 07 16:53
ChrisTXhahaJun 07 16:53
schestowitzTake the trolling to Windows channelsJun 07 16:53
ChrisTXschestowitz, and what do you do?Jun 07 16:53
schestowitzOr Mac channels :-DJun 07 16:53
schestowitzChrisTX: I don't step in other people's channelJun 07 16:53
schestowitzThat's not trollingJun 07 16:53
neighborleeAondo: a nasty mosquito o_0Jun 07 16:54
ChrisTXspreading propaganda about some freedom a brainfucked person named rms who says you must not use mobile phones created?Jun 07 16:54
fewaChrisTX, fuck offJun 07 16:54
Aondoneighborlee  :)Jun 07 16:54
schestowitzHad I gone to Windows channels to slam Windows, that would be trollingJun 07 16:54
ChrisTXschestowitz, no you just spread propaganda on your websiteJun 07 16:54
schestowitzChrisTX: please leaveJun 07 16:54
schestowitzAnd take your ilk with youJun 07 16:54
schestowitzhexx et aJun 07 16:54
schestowitzhexx et alJun 07 16:54
ChrisTXso you want to kick meJun 07 16:54
hexxhmm, i came on my ownJun 07 16:54
ChrisTXplease, why do you hate MSJun 07 16:54
fewaChrisTX, it is his channelJun 07 16:54
schestowitzNo, I want you to leave nicelyJun 07 16:54
ChrisTXexplain me thatJun 07 16:54
ChrisTXso far Ive got garbage answersJun 07 16:55
fewaChrisTX, do you think he cant kick whoever he wants from his channel? that is capatalism after all.Jun 07 16:55
ChrisTXyes I would like to know thatJun 07 16:55
ChrisTXfewa, I dont think you know what capitalism impliesJun 07 16:55
schestowitzI'll just ignore youJun 07 16:55
ChrisTXsee the thing isJun 07 16:55
neighborleeChrisTX: one mans propoganda is another mans treasure isnt it....but seeing on one side, I guess your not privy to such ideologies o_)Jun 07 16:55
schestowitzOthers can do the sameJun 07 16:55
ChrisTXwe live in a capitalistic worldJun 07 16:55
ChrisTXso we need to listen to the rules of capitalismJun 07 16:55
ChrisTXif you end capitalism, then you dont need toJun 07 16:56
neighborleeyeah...why bother pushing for change huhJun 07 16:56
ChrisTXbut that way you doJun 07 16:56
fewaChrisTX, "rules of capatalism", wtf does that meanJun 07 16:56
neighborleewhen what you want is against what freedom rings for ?Jun 07 16:56
neighborleehmm bad us :))Jun 07 16:56
ChrisTXthe basic idea of capitalismJun 07 16:56
fewaChrisTX, does that mean listening to the state, the corporation? to tell us what "capitalism" means?Jun 07 16:56
ChrisTXand schestowitz, ignoring me does not answer my questionJun 07 16:56
ChrisTXthanks very muchJun 07 16:56
ChrisTXyou cant even explain logicallyJun 07 16:56
ChrisTXwhy you would be rightJun 07 16:56
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ChrisTXfewa, capitalism has some basic ideasJun 07 16:57
ChrisTXand the idea is that money governs the worldJun 07 16:57
ChrisTXthat it isJun 07 16:57
ChrisTXand it doesJun 07 16:57
hexxare you sure that's the idea of capitalism??Jun 07 16:57
ChrisTXactually I hope you know that major parts of the OSS community hate youJun 07 16:57
hexxthat's what it got twisted to oer timeJun 07 16:57
ChrisTXand now Im pissed toJun 07 16:57
ChrisTX*tooJun 07 16:57
ChrisTXI am pissed about you spreading propagandaJun 07 16:58
ChrisTXfor an ideology you cannot explain at all by means of logicJun 07 16:58
hexxim kinda pissed too, cuz I was labeled ChrisTX ilk... :\Jun 07 16:58
ChrisTXvery wittyJun 07 16:58
ChrisTXnow I'm out, just like the führer schestowitz asked me toJun 07 16:58
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schestowitzHas anyone tried Chrome for Linux yet? http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25505/1054/Jun 07 16:58
hexxis it out?Jun 07 16:58
schestowitzYeahJun 07 16:59
neighborleenope had no idea it was offically OUT lolJun 07 16:59
twitter Hmmm, Pre not free software friendly, that's a shame.  I kind of got that feeling when I read that it talks to iTunes.  That means it must be DRM loaded and customer hostile.Jun 07 16:59
schestowitzAlphaJun 07 16:59
neighborleeshocking <<Jun 07 16:59
schestowitzAt least it's somethingJun 07 16:59
schestowitzI'd stick with Mozilla though. We need small companiesJun 07 16:59
schestowitztwitter: I doubt it supports Linux desktopsJun 07 16:59
schestowitzThey already make stupid buzz about iTunes supportJun 07 16:59
neighborleeill try it...see how ti compares to ff...Jun 07 16:59
fewaschestowitz, pretty much my opinion tooJun 07 17:00
schestowitzLike TomTom, they just use Linux for h/wJun 07 17:00
twittercrazyJun 07 17:00
fewamozilla is great, add ons galoreJun 07 17:00
neighborleeyup true thatJun 07 17:00
schestowitzFF3+my plguins cause a messJun 07 17:00
schestowitzRAM spillJun 07 17:00
schestowitzFF2 with the same plugins didn't cause thatJun 07 17:00
fewaschestowitz, thats why you have to have 8GB :PJun 07 17:00
schestowitzI have swappiness because of FF going out ofg order slurping over  a gig before I noticeJun 07 17:01
fewabut most is for tabsJun 07 17:01
fewaschestowitz, its probably jsut one tab, try cleaning upJun 07 17:01
fewa*/s/tab/add-on/Jun 07 17:01
twitterI don't think there's any hope for the current US cell phone market.  Damage was done back in the 90's by greedy spectrum auctions.  The only hope is Open Spectrum.Jun 07 17:02
twitterGoogle's should make their android phones work with "white space" TV spectrum.Jun 07 17:02
fewatwitter, there was the excellent suggestion that the FCC needs to be required to study and publish a study each year documenting what spectrum is _used_ and _where_Jun 07 17:03
fewaand by whomJun 07 17:03
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twitterThat would blow the whole cell phone market wide open and fix a lot of problems.Jun 07 17:03
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*schestowitz glad to have quit cellphones in 2008Jun 07 17:03
schestowitz /2008/2003/Jun 07 17:03
fewathey really should only sell bandwidthJun 07 17:03
twitterI like the idea of persistent communications.Jun 07 17:04
fewaand make all phones VoIP, SMS over IP etcJun 07 17:04
twitterI'd like my pocket device to also be my PCJun 07 17:04
schestowitzAbout the downtime of FSDaily: Free Software Magazine caught in the 3fn shutdown crossfire < http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/free_software_magazine_caught_3fn_shutdown_crossfire >Jun 07 17:04
twitterEkiga, etc, in my pocket.Jun 07 17:04
fewathat would fix many, many network neutrality problemsJun 07 17:04
twitterIRC where ever I go.Jun 07 17:04
twitterhttp://www.reed.com/OpenSpectrum/ makes it all possible - the pinch point is monopoly spectrum and network ownership.Jun 07 17:05
hexxtime to go... and, you shouldnt call people someone's ilk... you may lose big fansJun 07 17:06
twitterARM has been capable of this and the software has been around since 2002 or so.Jun 07 17:06
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schestowitzXen RIP? http://www.kev009.com/wp/2009/06/kernel-developers-dont-get-xen/ "Ingo Molnar wants you to send all your perfectly good enterprise iron to the landfill even though these systems will last 10+ useful years without boneheaded software decisions such as this."Jun 07 17:10
schestowitzBTW, BN runs under XenJun 07 17:10
schestowitzWhich is ironic because we have been a critic of XenSourceJun 07 17:10
fewaKVM is greatJun 07 17:10
schestowitzOopsJun 07 17:11
schestowitzhexx was one of the good guysJun 07 17:11
schestowitzI lost track of his spectatorsJun 07 17:11
fewa:)Jun 07 17:11
schestowitzI'll apologise if he comes backJun 07 17:11
twitterjudge by contributionsJun 07 17:12
amarsh04the linux-scsi person who fixed the driver for my card didn't say "your hardware is over 10 years old, forget it", he posted a patch within 11 hours of the bug report being postedJun 07 17:12
amarsh04in the bad old days some people said "send code" and not (also) "correct and expand the documentation"Jun 07 17:14
fewaamarsh04, wowJun 07 17:15
twitteris Xen free software?Jun 07 17:15
fewatwitter, 100%Jun 07 17:15
fewaAFAIKJun 07 17:16
schestowitzIt isJun 07 17:16
fewaits just a very large hunk of codeJun 07 17:16
schestowitzIt's owned by Microsoft pretty muchJun 07 17:16
twitterthen I'm sure it will do just fineJun 07 17:16
twitterM$ ?  ut ohJun 07 17:16
amarsh04fewa, the irony was the scsi driver had been non-functional from about kernel 2.6.23 to 2.6.28 without anyone noticing itJun 07 17:16
schestowitzKVM runs it overJun 07 17:16
schestowitzLF also promotes it over XenJun 07 17:16
schestowitzCitrixsoftJun 07 17:16
fewaamarsh04, for that old piece of hardware that few useJun 07 17:16
schestowitzAhhhJun 07 17:17
schestowitzZuneJun 07 17:17
amarsh04or running in a machine that doesn't get newer kernelsJun 07 17:17
fewakvm is just so much simpler, easier, its full virtualization so it works with much more, and with IOMMU it will gain par with most other things that could be said for xenJun 07 17:17
schestowitz#include module $DRMJun 07 17:18
fewaamarsh04, yeah, my brother runs servers with Red Hat 8Jun 07 17:18
twitterah, there Xen is in the Debian repos ....Jun 07 17:18
twitterit is strange and scary to think that M$ owns Xen.  I don't get it.Jun 07 17:19
fewatwitter, the main issue is that having a whole bunch of code that does mostly the same thing, at the hardware level where that inevitebaly results in hardware incompatiblities and duplicated effort, and while lighter (code wise) solutions existJun 07 17:20
twitterah, another XF86 storyJun 07 17:20
twitterwary strangerJun 07 17:21
fewaCoreboot's idea was to use the linux kernel to greatly reduce the hardware nightmares of BIOS booting, xen has the potential to introduce such problems to virtualizationJun 07 17:21
twitterBIOS, ick, there's not end of M$ sabotage thereJun 07 17:22
twitter*no endJun 07 17:22
twitterbblJun 07 17:22
fewathats basically what Ingo said here: http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/2/475 . and there is a opposing view here: http://www.kev009.com/wp/2009/06/kernel-developers-dont-get-xen/Jun 07 17:23
fewawell not exactly, he is only stating the duplication of code, im surmising the outcomesJun 07 17:25
fewa*possible outcomesJun 07 17:25
schestowitzOn KDE not coming to Windows (I think it's a good thing): http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-06-011-35-OS-KE-0001 http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-06-011-35-OS-KE-0000 Stopping KDE/windows development < http://chehrlic.blogspot.com/2009/06/stopping-kdewindows-development.html >Jun 07 17:27
schestowitzLinux now liking Xen is oldish newsJun 07 17:27
schestowitzThey woke up too late to this thoughJun 07 17:28
schestowitzI wrote about this in 2007Jun 07 17:28
schestowitzIt was obvious Citrix would screw Linux.Jun 07 17:28
schestowitzLater Ubuntu abandoned Xen, then Red HatJun 07 17:28
fewaeither xen gets merged or it needs to get whiped out by kvmJun 07 17:28
schestowitzThen KVM was boughht (Quarmnet?? spelling)Jun 07 17:28
fewaperhaps eased by porting xen tools to the kvm kernel interfaceJun 07 17:29
schestowitzThey could pick code from XenJun 07 17:29
schestowitzWhat's useful to themJun 07 17:29
schestowitzLF endorses KVMJun 07 17:29
schestowitzAnd openly lets xen rotJun 07 17:29
fewathe red hat page doesnt mention Quarmnet http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_PageJun 07 17:29
fewaand that is where http://kvm.qumranet.com/ redirectsJun 07 17:30
schestowitzI saw a lot of Citrix employees reading about it in BN because I can't imagine many Xen people (pro-LInux) are happyJun 07 17:30
schestowitzCrosby only cares about the moneyJun 07 17:30
schestowitzDunno if he's a tollJun 07 17:30
schestowitz*tollJun 07 17:30
fewawhat is LF?Jun 07 17:31
fewalinux foundation, ahaJun 07 17:31
schestowitzWho's that Microsoft  GM that got injected in XenSource?Jun 07 17:31
schestowitzAround the time they signed a deal, came to work in Washington and got money from former MS employees?Jun 07 17:31
schestowitzhttp://acurrie.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/evolution-the-default-email-client-for-ubuntu/ < Evolution – The Default Email Client for Ubuntu (Danger of Mono plugins)Jun 07 17:32
schestowitzNovell controls the mail reader of Ubuntu tooJun 07 17:32
schestowitzHere's a crazy ideJun 07 17:32
schestowitz*ideaJun 07 17:32
schestowitzWhat if Novell borrowed money and bought Canonical?Jun 07 17:32
schestowitzFor userbase and all..Jun 07 17:32
fewai like evolutionJun 07 17:33
fewaAnd mine doesnt include mono....yetJun 07 17:33
fewathunderbird is too webish for me, doesnt like plain textJun 07 17:34
schestowitz25 Years of Tetris: From Russia With Fun! < http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1902950,00.html > What classic games are there today? Almost none. FPSes?Jun 07 17:34
schestowitzTB is fine with plain textJun 07 17:35
schestowitzJust change defaultsJun 07 17:35
schestowitzIt's also my RSS readerJun 07 17:35
schestowitzSo weird: Jacqueline Emigh writes for linux.com http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/case-studies/16798-linux-makes-the-grade-in-california-schoolsJun 07 17:36
schestowitzShe usually covers a lot of Novell for BetaNews, along with Scott FoultonJun 07 17:36
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stonebjAll this talk about rewriting Gnome in mono has me wanting to switch back over to KDE 4, but plasma and kdedaemon always seem to crash worse than pre-wright brothers aircraft.Jun 07 17:36
fewastarcraft is probably like the big classic gameJun 07 17:36
fewabut the game business has gotten bigger, and more diverseJun 07 17:37
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neighborleefewa: and often, far less creative..Jun 07 17:42
neighborleefewa: though people buy these often stupid games so they have little reason to changeJun 07 17:42
fewaneighborlee, have you played World of Goo?Jun 07 17:42
neighborleefewa: I own itJun 07 17:42
neighborleefewa: wii <Jun 07 17:42
EruaranWellJun 07 17:43
EruaranI've installed ChromeJun 07 17:43
fewabut thats generally the exception I admitJun 07 17:43
neighborleeyupJun 07 17:43
fewaEruaran, chrome or chromium?Jun 07 17:43
Eruaranwell chromium reallyJun 07 17:45
EruaranIts the dev releaseJun 07 17:45
Eruaran3.0.183.1Jun 07 17:45
fewafrom here:http://build.chromium.org/buildbot/snapshots/chromium-rel-linux/Jun 07 17:45
schestowitzfewa: but how many implementations are there?Jun 07 17:46
schestowitzof starcraft?Jun 07 17:46
fewaahh, i see what you meanJun 07 17:47
schestowitzLike PongJun 07 17:47
schestowitzOOr froggerJun 07 17:47
fewathere is C&C, etc, RTS games, but yes those are not classic games, but categories of gamesJun 07 17:47
schestowitzhttp://pclinuxos2007.blogspot.com/2009/06/tweaks-to-boot-ext4-filesystem.htmlJun 07 17:48
EruaranI got it from hereJun 07 17:48
Eruaranhttp://dev.chromium.org/getting-involved/dev-channelJun 07 17:48
schestowitzC&C is just a kocnkoffJun 07 17:48
schestowitzWhich one came first of this type?Jun 07 17:48
schestowitzWarcraft?Jun 07 17:48
schestowitzProbaly not... more like D&D gamesJun 07 17:48
fewathere were games before warcraft i believeJun 07 17:48
schestowitzDune was niceJun 07 17:48
fewaand C&C was not a knockoffJun 07 17:48
schestowitzThe idea wasJun 07 17:49
fewai mean the whole wrath of those type of gamesJun 07 17:49
schestowitzJust new artwork/themeJun 07 17:49
fewai didnt play themJun 07 17:49
fewameh the mechanics are differnt, all tetris games are knockoffs according to Tetris LTDJun 07 17:49
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_Goblinhi allJun 07 17:50
fewaEruaran, yeah i download chromium so you are getting exactly whats in the source code, and dont have to click hrough a EULAJun 07 17:50
Eruaranyeah there was no EULAJun 07 17:50
fewahmm, i just got oneJun 07 17:51
fewaEruaran, are you running a deb based system?Jun 07 17:52
EruaranyesJun 07 17:52
fewathen you can integrate with apt: https://launchpad.net/~chromium-daily/+archive/ppaJun 07 17:53
Eruaranfewa: oh thats the repository ?Jun 07 17:53
EruaranI'll addJun 07 17:53
fewayeah, daily buildsJun 07 17:53
EruaranIt didn't automatically addJun 07 17:53
schestowitzAmarok 2 under Ubuntu < http://www.mygnulinux.com/?p=129 > --That's what Canonical should do.....Jun 07 17:54
EruaranohJun 07 17:54
EruaranI must not be paying attentionJun 07 17:54
EruaranIt did actually already add it to my sources listJun 07 17:54
schestowitzInstall Linux OS to a USB stick or SD card < http://aldeby.org/blog/index.php/install-linux-os-to-a-usb-stick-or-sd-card.html >Jun 07 17:54
*stonebj is now known as stonebj_SHOWERJun 07 17:55
schestowitz<x_rob> schestowitz: Would Canonical really sell up?Jun 07 17:55
schestowitz<schestowitz> x_rob: unlikelyJun 07 17:55
schestowitz<x_rob> schestowitz: How is that unlikely?Jun 07 17:55
schestowitz<x_rob> schestowitz: Oh you mean sale to Novell?Jun 07 17:55
schestowitz<schestowitz> Canonical uses a lot of Novell software, but Mark Shuttleworth is in bad rel' with Greg K-H, OpenSUSE developers (whom he invited in 2006). He also called the patent deal racketeering.Jun 07 17:55
schestowitzheh. http://castrojo.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/probably-not-what-the-design-team-had-in-mind/Jun 07 17:58
schestowitzOLPC critics.. Study criticises laptops for distracting children in developing countries < http://www.monitor.co.ug/artman/publish/sun_business/Study_criticises_laptops_for_distracting_children_in_developing_countries_86030.shtml >Jun 07 18:00
schestowitzSomeone at Mozilla forgot GNU/Linux....... http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2009/06/06/new-firefox-icon-iteration-14-in-context/Jun 07 18:02
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Eruaranyeah its really hard to get those Linux images ready...Jun 07 18:09
trmancotransmission 1.70 is outJun 07 18:15
schestowitzMonoman: http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/linux/118/ (Proprietary games, Free software)Jun 07 18:15
trmancohas anyone noticed how this app is incredibly evolving?Jun 07 18:16
trmancoschestowitz, read the earlier, didn't bother to post the link here thoughJun 07 18:16
_GoblinI remember when it was first packaged with Linux.Jun 07 18:16
_Goblin(Ubuntu)Jun 07 18:17
trmancohttp://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=1428#1.70Jun 07 18:18
trmanco_Goblin, yeah, it suckedJun 07 18:18
trmancospeed were very slow, lack of a UI based settings dialogJun 07 18:19
trmancospeeds*Jun 07 18:19
trmancoI switched back to azureus those days, until version 1.20Jun 07 18:20
trmanconow, all I can say about it, is that it rocks, and it's an amazing appJun 07 18:20
trmancoespecially it's web interfaceJun 07 18:20
schestowitzA look at the internals of 2.6.30 (it's not Tuz anymore): http://www.h-online.com/open/Kernel-Log-What-s-coming-in-2-6-30-Architecture-and-infrastructure--/news/113469Jun 07 18:20
trmancohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue145Jun 07 18:23
_GoblinI think I read about it on TorrentfreakJun 07 18:24
DaemonFCschestowitz: I've got Quicktime installed to scheck the ISO compliance of all the AAC files I makeJun 07 18:30
DaemonFCto make sure that BonkEnc and FAAC don't misbehave again :PJun 07 18:30
DaemonFCI think it's mildly hilarious that all you have to do is add an id3v2 tag to an AAC file and some players will never play it againJun 07 18:32
DaemonFCsome music software tries to do that on imortJun 07 18:32
DaemonFC*importJun 07 18:32
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schestowitzSome development around Solaris continues: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=stormos_hail_beta&num=1Jun 07 18:35
DaemonFCI want to know why FAAC injects random noise and junk into it's MP4 audio streamsJun 07 18:43
DaemonFCI might try the Nero encoder once moreJun 07 18:44
DaemonFCschestowitz: There's Linux binaries in this archive tooJun 07 19:02
DaemonFChehJun 07 19:02
DaemonFCinterestingJun 07 19:02
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fewaDaemonFC, hopefully the lzma library will lead to support in squashfsJun 07 19:12
DaemonFCLZMA is a good compression algorithmJun 07 19:14
fewaexactlyJun 07 19:14
DaemonFCI use it with 7ZipJun 07 19:14
schestowitz"-> @schestowitz Canonical is profitable & privately held &  Shuttleworth is not interested in selling AFAIK."Jun 07 19:14
fewathe best common read-only compressionJun 07 19:14
fewaby farJun 07 19:14
DaemonFCRAR is too restrictive, slow, and needs a lot of resources to compress an archiveJun 07 19:14
DaemonFCso that's off the table for meJun 07 19:14
fewaand rar is not free softwareJun 07 19:14
fewaand winrar can open lzma/7zip filesJun 07 19:15
fewalzma is fast, small, simple, and free softwareJun 07 19:15
DaemonFCwell, industry standards are usually acceptable even if there are patents involved, because it usually ends up being that the patent holder either grants you a license to use it or at the very least turns their back and lets it happen, plus you have an immediate defense in court that you implemented their stuff for compatabilityJun 07 19:17
DaemonFCwhere you run into problems is when something has never been submitted as part of an ISO/IEC/ECMA standardJun 07 19:17
DaemonFCand you reimplement itJun 07 19:17
fewai dont believe there are anly LZMA patentsJun 07 19:17
fewait uses common algorythms in gzip and suchJun 07 19:17
DaemonFCwell, that I mean is that you're on better legal ground if you make an MP3 encoder than if you reimplemented Windows Forms for Mono on LinuxJun 07 19:18
DaemonFCstuff like thatJun 07 19:18
DaemonFCI think that anyone stupid enough to actually implement that is going to be in a world of hurtJun 07 19:19
fewait is efficient because it uses a large dictionary and LZ77Jun 07 19:19
schestowitzJust jot: "Roy, i am sure that you already have a link to this page on BN, but in case not, I wanted to send it to you.  This link takes you to James Plamondon's mea culpa re his unethical technical evangelism." http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/08/microsoft-evilness-galore/Jun 07 19:19
DaemonFCschestowitz: If Ubuntu usues Banshee by default, they'll have to ship Windows Forms/System FormsJun 07 19:19
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schestowitzJames Plamondon fesses up http://platformevangelism.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!37F174267DC274C!155.entryJun 07 19:19
DaemonFCwhich immediately makes Ubuntu non redistributableJun 07 19:19
schestowitzDaemonFC: interestingJun 07 19:20
DaemonFCso unless they have a Microsoft deal in the works, I don't know how they'd pull this offJun 07 19:20
fewaDaemonFC, why?Jun 07 19:20
DaemonFCup til now Ubuntu only ships the ECMA standard parts of MonoJun 07 19:20
DaemonFCWindows Forms is not part of the standardJun 07 19:21
DaemonFCso only Novell has permission to distribute thatJun 07 19:21
fewawhy would canonical be so stupid as to encumber ubuntu?Jun 07 19:21
schestowitzValley investor and Google adviser Rajeev Motwani mourned http://www.topix.net/science/computer-science/2009/06/valley-investor-and-google-adviser-rajeev-motwani-mourned?fromrss=1Jun 07 19:21
DaemonFCwell, like I said, if they signed an agreement with Microsoft like Novell has, it would be legalJun 07 19:21
fewaand what prevents ubuntu from distrobuting it?Jun 07 19:21
DaemonFCotherwise they're opening themselves up to be suedJun 07 19:21
fewawithout being encumbered?Jun 07 19:22
DaemonFCright now, those libraries are not included with the systemJun 07 19:22
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DaemonFCso the discs have nothing illegal to distribute on themJun 07 19:22
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DaemonFCjust like you have to download MPE encoders and suchJun 07 19:22
DaemonFCthey're not on the discJun 07 19:22
DaemonFC*MPEGJun 07 19:22
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fewawhy is the code illegal, you are not listening to my central pointJun 07 19:22
DaemonFCpatentedJun 07 19:22
neighborleefewa: you can ask fedora why  they did  it,and are n ow reversing tracks :)Jun 07 19:22
DaemonFCtrade secretsJun 07 19:23
fewaDaemonFC, its absurd that thing that are open source and widly shipped can be trade secretsJun 07 19:23
fewasimply non senseJun 07 19:23
DaemonFCwhich is why Novell did thisJun 07 19:23
DaemonFCit's both open source and illegal to distribute nowJun 07 19:23
fewaits not trade secretsJun 07 19:24
DaemonFCIf Ubuntu rewrote the parts that need Windows Forms, it would probably be OK to distributeJun 07 19:24
fewaany claims to the contrary are absurd, and have been rutinely thrown outJun 07 19:24
MinceRr4wrJun 07 19:24
DaemonFCMicrosoft doesn't want to sue, they want to keep pointing at things like this and saying "Nyaaaah!" when companies are considering LinuxJun 07 19:25
DaemonFCis what I thinkJun 07 19:25
fewaDaemonFC, and the patents they have are in legal hot waterJun 07 19:25
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DaemonFChttp://www.rjamorim.com/test/aac128v2/results.htmlJun 07 19:26
fewamost are probably invalidJun 07 19:26
DaemonFCDoes anyone but me find it odd that iTunes AAC always wins listening tests?Jun 07 19:26
DaemonFCvs other encodersJun 07 19:26
DaemonFCI did think Nero sounded better than FAAC though, this does seem to back that upJun 07 19:28
MinceRperhaps they do the tests with crApple cultistsJun 07 19:35
MinceRor they're just liesJun 07 19:35
DaemonFCNero sounds prettyt goodJun 07 19:37
DaemonFCFAAC introduces audible distortions at any bitrateJun 07 19:37
DaemonFCwhen you use the ISO decoderJun 07 19:37
DaemonFCWinamp's encoder is good, but only supports Constant BitrateJun 07 19:38
DaemonFCthat leaves Nero and Apple with the only acceptable encodersJun 07 19:38
neighborleeMinceR: lolJun 07 19:40
DaemonFCFAAC blows up on complex sections of the audio stremJun 07 19:41
DaemonFCwhich is probably why they link to Nero on their own websiteJun 07 19:41
neighborleeDaemonFC: whats wrong with ogg enc/dec ;))Jun 07 19:41
DaemonFCnot widely supportedJun 07 19:41
neighborleeis that kind of like..electric cars aren't widely supported atm , so abandon them ? ;)Jun 07 19:42
schestowitzColorado Software Summit 2009 Cancelled http://www.softwaresummit.com/Jun 07 19:42
DaemonFCnoJun 07 19:42
MinceRneighborlee: isn't closed/patent-encumbered enough for his tasteJun 07 19:42
MinceRalso, not officially endorsed by m$ nor by crAppleJun 07 19:43
DaemonFCVorbis isn't supported on any name brand equipmentJun 07 19:43
neighborleeDaemonFC: I wonder why....Jun 07 19:43
MinceRhm, my name brand qtek 9100 happily plays ogg vorbis with TCPMP :>Jun 07 19:43
neighborleeMinceR: niceeeeJun 07 19:43
MinceRalso with G-Alarm so some of the tunes that wake me are from the ut2004 soundtrackJun 07 19:44
neighborleedain dont I wish...:))<dain Motorola LOL >Jun 07 19:44
neighborleeMinceR: that is really sweet ;)Jun 07 19:44
neighborleeMinceR: I have that game, though not installed or played in quite awhileJun 07 19:45
neighborleeMinceR: but that its linux native really rocks ;0-Jun 07 19:45
MinceRindeedJun 07 19:45
neighborleeMinceR: I wonder if they are really going to bring UTedit to linuxJun 07 19:45
MinceRi doubt itJun 07 19:45
neighborleeyeahJun 07 19:45
MinceRconsidering they've dropped the ball on ut3Jun 07 19:45
neighborleeohh had not heard ;0-Jun 07 19:46
neighborleehmfJun 07 19:46
MinceRfrom time to time phoronix posts an article saying they've been promising it for so many yearsJun 07 19:46
MinceRand then it's followed up by an announcement from icculus that he's still working on it and it's really really close to done nowJun 07 19:47
MinceRand then silence follows for a few months, then it all starts overJun 07 19:47
neighborlee:))Jun 07 19:47
neighborleekinda like D3..its coming soon..<when we're ready> :)))Jun 07 19:47
neighborleemy friend waits oh so not patiently for that one ;)Jun 07 19:48
MinceRexcept i doubt they really care about releasing a ut3 client for linuxJun 07 19:48
MinceRif they did, they would have released something alreadyJun 07 19:48
neighborleewould thinkJun 07 19:48
MinceRperhaps not zomg-optimized, perhaps not more bugfree than the windows client, but upgrades aren't forbidden laterJun 07 19:48
MinceRi think they're being paid by m$ to not release anythingJun 07 19:48
schestowitz"Looking forward to the ODF lab after the last #javaone keynote. #javaone went by too fast! : (" http://twitter.com/JavaGirl/statuses/2043842782Jun 07 19:49
neighborleeMinceR: well ..its possible I guess..Jun 07 19:49
neighborleeMinceR: its not like they make millions off linux port..sadly enoughJun 07 19:49
schestowitzut3 still gonna come..Jun 07 19:50
neighborleeincentive mattersJun 07 19:50
schestowitzRyan says soJun 07 19:50
MinceRor maybe not even paidJun 07 19:50
schestowitzMaybe like DukeJun 07 19:50
MinceRmaybe it's just a "you won't get to release another game for the xbox if you do a linux release" thingJun 07 19:50
neighborleehehJun 07 19:50
DaemonFCthat's not itJun 07 19:50
neighborleeMinceR: well 360 is doing 'ok' but faik not stunningJun 07 19:50
DaemonFCit's not exactly trivial to port a game from Windows to LinuxJun 07 19:50
MinceRexcept for the fact that all earlier versions of the engine were ported in timeJun 07 19:51
neighborleeport no..create yes <if done crossplatform wize>Jun 07 19:51
MinceRand the installer is there tooJun 07 19:51
MinceRand interestingly enough we never hear what exactly isn't complete yetJun 07 19:51
DaemonFCYou'll notice that Linux hardly ever gets a port unless they did the Mac version firstJun 07 19:51
neighborleeI t hink one of the best linux natives we ever got, was likely from bioware with neverwinter nights 1Jun 07 19:52
DaemonFCby that point they've already done most of the portability crapfest and Linux is a "Why not?"Jun 07 19:52
MinceRso what? m$ would do the exact same thing to prevent a macos port tooJun 07 19:52
neighborleeit took awhile,,,had issues..wasn't all that fun to install, but it ran and ran very well once setup ;)Jun 07 19:52
DaemonFCMinceR: They never haveJun 07 19:52
neighborleeand way more deep than most fpsJun 07 19:52
MinceRexcept there's no macos nor linux port of the ut3 clientJun 07 19:52
DaemonFCif Linux had a 20-30% marketshare, it would receive most of the same line up that Windows getsJun 07 19:52
MinceRand they've been "doing" it for more than a yearJun 07 19:52
MinceRwith no indication of progress whatsoeverJun 07 19:53
schestowitz500 daysJun 07 19:53
schestowitzTher is progressJun 07 19:53
MinceRalmost two years thenJun 07 19:53
DaemonFCit's just a matter of getting such huge numbers that they can't ignore you anymoreJun 07 19:53
schestowitzThere are screeenshotsJun 07 19:53
schestowitzIt runs on LinuxJun 07 19:53
schestowitzJust not ready for release yetJun 07 19:53
MinceRsure, progress in the number of phoronix articles saying it will be releasedJun 07 19:53
MinceRfrom icculusJun 07 19:53
schestowitzThey have just one guy porting it, I thinkJun 07 19:53
schestowitzYesJun 07 19:53
neighborleealthough..I should not forget 'savage'..did savage2 ever work out ???Jun 07 19:53
MinceR(strangely enough he never posts about it in his .plan)Jun 07 19:54
DaemonFCignoring a segment of users that don't buy software anyway and will just go download yours from The Pirate Bay is probably not too high up on the priority listJun 07 19:54
MinceRDaemonFC: fallacyJun 07 19:54
DaemonFCerrr, you know what I meanJun 07 19:54
MinceRDaemonFC: oops, i mean bullshitJun 07 19:54
DaemonFC1% of the market is strike 1Jun 07 19:54
MinceRthat's bullshit tooJun 07 19:54
DaemonFC1% of the market who is hostile towards selling software for profitJun 07 19:54
DaemonFCstrike 2Jun 07 19:55
MinceRthat's still bullshitJun 07 19:55
neighborleeDaemonFC: not really..not if you judge by how croweded linux forums were on bioware's website ;0-Jun 07 19:55
DaemonFC1% of the market who will just go download from Pirate Bay if they get it at allJun 07 19:55
MinceRDaemonFC: don't worry, your bullshit is apparently welcome hereJun 07 19:55
DaemonFCstrike 3Jun 07 19:55
neighborleeDaemonFC: they might PREFER FOSS, but that doesn't mean the majority are hostile towards certain marketsJun 07 19:55
DaemonFCthere's nothing evil about selling software, there's nothing wrong in doing it, what is wrong is controlling file formats and using them to throw your weight aroundJun 07 19:56
MinceRthat's not all that's wrong about what your favorite marketing company doesJun 07 19:56
DaemonFCMicrosoft not only ignores open source stuff entirely, but gives third world treatment to industry standards tooJun 07 19:57
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DaemonFCWindows doesn't support AAC by defaultJun 07 19:57
DaemonFCat allJun 07 19:57
neighborleenot even M$ can ignore some things forever..just look at their ODF support in wordpad in win7Jun 07 19:58
DaemonFCI don't think anyone is stupid enough to use WMA just because it's thereJun 07 19:58
DaemonFCanymore than they use anything else jsut because it's thereJun 07 19:58
neighborleeyou might be surprisedJun 07 19:59
neighborleemy friend..who is very intelligent..was using ff..then reinstalled and decided to 'just use IE"Jun 07 19:59
neighborleeso  ..trends dont always pan out as you might think ;)Jun 07 19:59
DaemonFCI think they also finally support DivX and AAC in Windows Media Player in 7Jun 07 19:59
DaemonFCyes, people will go out of their way to avoid formats that lock their data upJun 07 20:00
MinceRtheir odf "support" is nothing but an attempt to make odf seem incompatibleJun 07 20:00
DaemonFCeven if you use Windows now, you may not always want toJun 07 20:00
DaemonFCso putting all your data in Windows formats is sillyJun 07 20:00
schestowitzYeah, MS doesn't sipport ODFJun 07 20:00
schestowitzKill WordpadJun 07 20:00
MinceRm$-odf has little to do with odfJun 07 20:00
schestowitzRemove ODF supprot from itJun 07 20:01
neighborleeMinceR: I dont know what it is..im just saying its there ;)Jun 07 20:01
schestowitzMore harm than goodJun 07 20:01
schestowitzIt's MSODFJun 07 20:01
schestowitzNot ODGJun 07 20:01
schestowitz*ODFJun 07 20:01
neighborlee:)Jun 07 20:01
schestowitzThey reuse the same poison (code) fro m OfficeJun 07 20:01
neighborleehowever doesn't mean I use or prefer wordpad..one of the first things I do is install OOJun 07 20:01
DaemonFCwith MP3, M4A, Vorbis, etc, I could take all my files with me to Linux or OS X or anywhereJun 07 20:01
DaemonFCbut if I used WMA, I'd need reverse engineered support that doesn't play them as well as Windows canJun 07 20:02
DaemonFCso WMA is jsut not a good idea no matter how long you think you'll use Windows forJun 07 20:02
DaemonFCnow as much as I hate iTunes, most of the files they sell are interoperable at least these daysJun 07 20:03
DaemonFCit's not like they're selling something that only works on a MacJun 07 20:03
DaemonFCbut if you use Zune Store, your files are Windows onlyJun 07 20:04
DaemonFCforeverJun 07 20:04
MinceRplus you hate FLOSS and freedom, so financing crApple is a win-win for you :>Jun 07 20:09
schestowitzWell, he thinks Apple has 10 times the market share of LinuxJun 07 20:16
schestowitzBecause some firm of a former softie with MS as a customer says soJun 07 20:16
schestowitzhttp://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_AppleJun 07 20:17
DaemonFCschestowitz: On the business end, I agreeJun 07 20:18
DaemonFCon the consumer end, their biggest problem is Apple thoughJun 07 20:18
schestowitzHaha!Jun 07 20:18
schestowitzLike where?Jun 07 20:18
schestowitzIn Brazi;?Jun 07 20:18
schestowitzChina?Jun 07 20:18
schestowitzOh yeah... everyone in China loves those Red Apple Stores.Jun 07 20:18
schestowitzAnd surely, those NetApps commies are only sampling in China, so..Jun 07 20:18
DaemonFCwell, obviously I mean in first world countriesJun 07 20:20
balzac-_-Jun 07 20:20
DaemonFCin 3rd world, it's a toss up between Linux and pirate WindowsJun 07 20:20
DaemonFCobviously in a country where a copy of Windows costs what you make in a month, Linux will do a lot betterJun 07 20:21
schestowitzInteresting new class of Linux devices is coming: http://www.slipperybrick.com/2009/06/elektrobit-unveils-mid-reference-design/Jun 07 20:21
balzacI'm still struggling with what Dell did to ubuntu on the Dell MiniJun 07 20:22
DaemonFCVBR target of 192k seems to be the sweet spot for AACJun 07 20:22
balzacsomeone at Dell made a disastrous choice to disable the boot loaderJun 07 20:22
DaemonFCVBR target of 256k for Lame MP3Jun 07 20:22
DaemonFCfor me at leastJun 07 20:23
balzacMight have been a M$-loyalistJun 07 20:23
DaemonFChmmmJun 07 20:23
schestowitzMicrosoft can't make money in developing countryJun 07 20:23
schestowitzBecause they have choice -- LinuxJun 07 20:23
schestowitzThey have no idea how lucky they are that Linux is around, due to cost wartsJun 07 20:23
DaemonFCwell, Torvalds himself said Linux is doing well in some areas because "they can't afford anything else"Jun 07 20:24
DaemonFCI agreeJun 07 20:24
DaemonFCbut that's hardly an argument about qualityJun 07 20:24
balzacschestowitz: I'm pretty pissed about the Windows .net extension they automatically installed in the Firefox installations of 10s of millions of Firefox users on WindowsJun 07 20:24
balzacHow dare they?!Jun 07 20:24
DaemonFCthat one had even MS MVPs pissed offJun 07 20:24
DaemonFCand writing about it on their blogsJun 07 20:24
balzacMicrosoft has committed a major transgressionJun 07 20:24
MinceRthey did the same thing crApple didJun 07 20:25
DaemonFCit's not cool to mess with other softwareJun 07 20:25
DaemonFCthat's what spyware doesJun 07 20:25
MinceRone more thing to show they're the same turd with different sprinklesJun 07 20:25
balzacI just found a thread when trying to find if unetbootin would work on AppleJun 07 20:25
balzachttp://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=8199507Jun 07 20:26
balzacHiJun 07 20:26
balzacIs there something similar to Unetbootin for Macs?Jun 07 20:26
balzacThis poor guy gets tased by high-ranking admins of the Mac forumJun 07 20:26
balzacThey wouldn't help him at all. It was very much like what you'd expect from MicrosoftJun 07 20:27
DaemonFCyeah, they get pissed about Windows users asking stuff abotu Apple software on WindowsJun 07 20:27
balzacApple ought to change their tune, because they're beginning to look like dinosaurs of software licensingJun 07 20:27
DaemonFCin the Apple software FOR WINDOWS forumsJun 07 20:27
DaemonFCI remember asking why Safari couldn't be made to open pop ups in tabs like IE and Firefox and OperaJun 07 20:28
DaemonFCand got my ass chewed in a Mac fanboy rantJun 07 20:28
balzacWell, I tend to feel sorry for Windows users, rather than getting pissed, but these Apple guys were brutal to one of their own, just because he wanted unetbootin on his macJun 07 20:28
balzacI'd get a good laugh from thatJun 07 20:29
DaemonFCSafari has a better rendering engine than IE, but IE is actually more customizableJun 07 20:29
DaemonFCOpea and Firefox are really what you'll want on Windows in the endJun 07 20:29
MinceRcrApple ought to die, just like MICROS~1Jun 07 20:29
DaemonFC*OperaJun 07 20:29
MinceRthey're criminal organizationsJun 07 20:29
balzacI used an Apple before there was such a thing as a Mac, then I had a Mac plus, 2CX, Quadra, and I've used my parents apple computers as wellJun 07 20:29
balzacMinceR: you're angstivating againJun 07 20:30
balzac"die" is not appropriate in this contextJun 07 20:30
MinceRbalzac: you're being an idiot againJun 07 20:30
balzacno time for squabblingJun 07 20:30
balzacnow I don't use apple because Steve Jobs is showing his age, by how he uses software licensesJun 07 20:31
MinceRyet you still cry when someone says something bad about crAppleJun 07 20:31
balzache needs to sit down with Richard Stallman and learn how to stay currentJun 07 20:31
MinceRno, he needs to go out of businessJun 07 20:31
DaemonFCI don't use Apple because none of their Windows products actually work well on WindowsJun 07 20:31
DaemonFCdue to limitations in their software, not WindowsJun 07 20:31
balzacMinceR: I don't cry, I just give good advice to save the harshest rhetoric for war criminals, not Gates, Ballmer, Jobs, etc.Jun 07 20:32
DaemonFCif I paid $300 for an iPod, I want the same features on Windows as on MacJun 07 20:32
MinceRbalzac: m$ says evangelism is war :>Jun 07 20:32
balzacMinceR: it's "war" as a metaphor for ruthless competitionJun 07 20:32
DaemonFCby being arrogant shitheads and refusing to properly stand behind their official Windows products, they're only hurting themselvesJun 07 20:32
MinceRDaemonFC: you expect _features_ from a crApple product? :>Jun 07 20:32
DaemonFCnobody in their right mind will use an iPod on Windows and leave the situation wanting a Mac as wellJun 07 20:33
balzacreal war is much uglier than what even the most obnoxious software moguls are doingJun 07 20:33
MinceRnobody in their right mind will use an iPodJun 07 20:33
MinceRthere, fixed that for you.Jun 07 20:33
balzacI've never owned an ipodJun 07 20:33
MinceRbalzac: it's only a question of what resources they get to useJun 07 20:33
balzacthe last mac I owned was a mac plus I bought in 2001 for playing dark castle and using macpaintJun 07 20:33
DaemonFCanyone who tries to install iTunes on Windows is in for a world of hurtJun 07 20:33
DaemonFCit even adds 7 system services!Jun 07 20:34
DaemonFCit's a bloated pile of shitJun 07 20:34
MinceRperhaps it's their way of trying to convince you to get a macJun 07 20:34
MinceR"look, it works better on osx"Jun 07 20:34
DaemonFCnot reallyJun 07 20:34
DaemonFCI've never really liked OS X eitherJun 07 20:34
DaemonFCyou feel more constrained by OS X than you do by Windows VistaJun 07 20:35
balzacOSX is lots better than prior versions of Mac OSJun 07 20:35
DaemonFCif you can believe itJun 07 20:35
balzacDaemonFC: not meJun 07 20:35
MinceRit isn't exactly difficult to make a better os than macos 9Jun 07 20:35
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MinceRor any earlier versionJun 07 20:35
balzacDaemonFC: I can bust out that BASH terminal and feel pretty goodJun 07 20:35
_Hicham_Hi Mr DaemonFC!Jun 07 20:35
MinceRripping off a pile of BSDL-ed sw could be expected to have better resultsJun 07 20:35
DaemonFCwhen Windows does something bad (Take IE or Media Player) you can ggo get 3rd party software that works greatJun 07 20:36
DaemonFCand forget you even have either of thoseJun 07 20:36
MinceReven if they hacked at it until it was severely crippledJun 07 20:36
DaemonFCthat's not always the case on the MacJun 07 20:36
MinceR3rd party software, like gnu/linuxJun 07 20:36
balzacLuckily, I don't have to choose between Windows and AppleJun 07 20:36
balzacthank you GNUJun 07 20:36
balzacThe power of GNU is beyond the comprehension of most computer usersJun 07 20:37
balzac~GNU POWER~Jun 07 20:38
balzaccome on, come on, feel it! feel it!Jun 07 20:38
_Hicham_DaemonFC is more powerfulJun 07 20:38
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yuhongI am downloading the Windows 7 RC right now.Jun 07 20:38
yuhongI am thinking of installing in VMware this time.Jun 07 20:39
MinceRyuhong: wrong channelJun 07 20:39
yuhongOK, but Boycott Novell do discuss Windows 7.Jun 07 20:40
_Hicham_Windows 7 is greatJun 07 20:40
_Hicham_according to DaemonFCJun 07 20:40
yuhongI don't think it is bad either.Jun 07 20:40
yuhongI tried the beta in Virtual PC.Jun 07 20:40
balzacVista 7 is an "epic fail".Jun 07 20:40
yuhongI would not go that far.Jun 07 20:40
MinceRall the m$-trolls who swarmed us yesterday loved it tooJun 07 20:40
MinceRyou're 1 day lateJun 07 20:41
yuhongYep.Jun 07 20:41
balzacthat must have been funJun 07 20:41
balzacToo bad I wasn't here to play "whack-a-mole" with themJun 07 20:41
MinceRthe only person who could play that is schestowitz, but he didn't :>Jun 07 20:41
yuhongWhat whack a mole game?Jun 07 20:42
balzacMinceR: I can deliver some stingersJun 07 20:42
balzacyuhong: have you play it before?Jun 07 20:42
MinceRbalzac: they won't feel it because they're mindlessJun 07 20:42
yuhongI know what kind of game it is.Jun 07 20:42
balzacYou have a padded mallet and mole puppets come up out of their holesJun 07 20:42
balzacyou bop them as quickly as you canJun 07 20:43
MinceRi thought you meant kickbanning by whackingJun 07 20:43
balzacI mean stinging them in such a way as to cause a moment of ego-crisisJun 07 20:43
yuhongBTW, all the talk about Boycott Novell about RC being fatter than Beta made me wonder about Vista beta's size.Jun 07 20:43
yuhongI mean, how bloated was beta versions of Vista?Jun 07 20:43
balzacgigantic, I'd guessJun 07 20:44
balzacMicrosoft Vista 7 probably comes on 7 DVDsJun 07 20:44
MinceRbalzac: this is relevant to my interests.Jun 07 20:44
MinceR(stinging in such a way)Jun 07 20:45
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yuhongWell, my download of Windows 7 comes at about only 2 GB.Jun 07 20:45
yuhongWell, my download of Windows 7 RC comes at about only 2 GB.Jun 07 20:45
balzacMinceR: it takes a bit of psychological analysis of your ideological opponentJun 07 20:45
yuhong2.36 GB, the download manager says.Jun 07 20:46
balzacyou ask a few questions, profile their psychology for identification with this or thatJun 07 20:46
balzacthen, that's where you sting emJun 07 20:46
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Omar87Okay, people, wait a second.. Is this Bill Gates interview on Slated really true? Did it really happen?? And if yes, then did Bill Gates REALLY mean what he said? Was he serious? Or was he just joking??Jun 07 20:46
MinceRthey're often incapable or unwilling to answer questionsJun 07 20:46
balzacright, so first you create a reportJun 07 20:46
MinceROmar87: link?Jun 07 20:46
balzacdon't go right into "adversarial psychology"Jun 07 20:46
Omar87http://slated.org/pwot_bill_gates_interviewJun 07 20:46
MinceRthere was this idiot yesterday who kept asking the same question over and overJun 07 20:46
yuhongBTW, on IE's stagation, have you ever used or seen screenshots of early builds of Longhorn?Jun 07 20:47
MinceRChrisFX or whateverJun 07 20:47
balzacbe a bit conversational, get an understanding of how their ego is positioned relative to the big personalities and issuesJun 07 20:47
Omar87MinceR: What?Jun 07 20:47
balzacthen you sting em, based on that knowledgeJun 07 20:47
_Hicham_كيف حال السيد عمر؟Jun 07 20:47
MinceROmar87: it begins with "this spoof" so i'd say it's fakeJun 07 20:47
_Hicham_MinceR : my question isJun 07 20:48
_Hicham_MinceR : proofJun 07 20:48
balzacI got this OP on efnet so angry once, he banned himself when he tried to ban me. He must have been using MIRC.Jun 07 20:48
MinceR_Hicham_: lolJun 07 20:48
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MinceRbalzac: lolJun 07 20:48
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yuhongBecause the versions of IE shipped with these early builds of Longhorn already had many features that ended up going into XP SP2.Jun 07 20:49
balzacI sensed that he was intellectually conceited, probably because was a nerd who got picked on, so he based his ego on intellect. Based on that, I told him I could push him down and make him eat dirt, like back in elementary school. That's when he flipped his lid.Jun 07 20:49
yuhongSo IE did not entirely stagerate.Jun 07 20:49
_Hicham_yuhong : IE is greatJun 07 20:49
MinceRbalzac: :)Jun 07 20:49
_Hicham_IE unified the WebJun 07 20:49
balzache's a total @sshole in #politics on efnetJun 07 20:49
balzacI was pretty happy to have caused such a great freak-out over IRCJun 07 20:50
Omar87MinceR: Yeah, probably, but I would expect anything out of the mouth of an @#$hole like Bill Gates, he's one friggin' deranged s.o.b. (Sorry for the bad language).Jun 07 20:50
balzacI was there, mocking him while he tried to figure out how to get back into his own channel.Jun 07 20:50
MinceROmar87: no need to be sorry, he deserves the bad language.Jun 07 20:50
Omar87_Hicham_: الحمد لله رب العالمين. كيف حالك أخي هشام؟Jun 07 20:50
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_Hicham_Omar87 : نحمده عز و جل و نشكرهJun 07 20:52
MinceROmar87: the "binary gods" or whatever quote is probably genuine though, so the article isn't far from the truth.Jun 07 20:53
_Hicham_where is Mr DaemonFC?Jun 07 20:53
MinceRshh, don't wake him upJun 07 20:53
MinceRwe got a chance for meaningful conversationJun 07 20:54
_Goblinwhat about chris from last night?Jun 07 20:54
*DaemonFC gives MinceR a noogieJun 07 20:54
DaemonFCnyaaaahJun 07 20:54
*MinceR kicks DaemonFC in the junkJun 07 20:55
MinceR_Goblin: he was write-only so i wasn't sure of balzac's method would work against himJun 07 20:56
Omar87MinceR: But, ya know what? The interview, sounds waaaay to silly to be true, even though it was with an insane creature like Bill Gates.Jun 07 20:56
balzacThose ones, I'd threaten to ban them for repetitionJun 07 20:56
balzacIt's called "flooding" when they say the same thing too often.Jun 07 20:56
Omar87it was *done*....Jun 07 20:56
_Hicham_where were u DaemonFC?Jun 07 20:57
_Hicham_sleeping?Jun 07 20:57
DaemonFCwhere was I when?Jun 07 20:57
MinceRbalzac: nobody ever gets banned here, thoughJun 07 20:57
balzacwell, you've got to ban people for floodingJun 07 20:57
_Hicham_DaemonFC : the channel misses uJun 07 20:57
balzacthey can cripple your channelJun 07 20:57
MinceRthey didJun 07 20:57
MinceRso does DaemonFCJun 07 20:57
_Goblinchris was annoying as hellJun 07 20:58
_Hicham_balzac : try to flood this channel and u will get bannedJun 07 20:58
DaemonFCFrom going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.Jun 07 20:58
DaemonFC:)Jun 07 20:58
_Hicham_it is automaticJun 07 20:58
balzacbrbJun 07 20:58
_Hicham_DaemonFC : yesterday we had a beginner troll in hereJun 07 20:58
MinceRhm, maybe the "binary gods" quote is from this spoofJun 07 20:59
MinceRthen maybe it isn't genuineJun 07 20:59
MinceRyesterday we had a deluge of trolls in hereJun 07 20:59
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_Hicham_the trolls or yesterday were retardedJun 07 21:02
yuhongBTW, on the MS Surface review that MS asked to have pulled.Jun 07 21:05
yuhongLook at take 2:Jun 07 21:05
yuhonghttp://kinesismomentum.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/skin-deep-usability-take-2/Jun 07 21:05
yuhongIt mentions Commercial and Developer versions of Surface.Jun 07 21:05
balzacschestowitz: Do you think this case is worthy of mention?Jun 07 21:10
balzachttp://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=8199507Jun 07 21:10
balzacAn Apple customer was treated badly for asking for a Mac utility for putting GNU/Linux images onto USB memory sticksJun 07 21:11
balzacThey went beyond merely not helping him, but actually being rude and telling him to leave the forumJun 07 21:11
balzacI guess it's not really on-topic for BNJun 07 21:12
balzacbut Apple has its enforcersJun 07 21:12
MinceRthe cult hates outsidersJun 07 21:12
schestowitzCheck this out:Jun 07 21:13
schestowitzhttp://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/linux-sucks-as.htmlJun 07 21:13
schestowitzJune 5, 2009 1:11 AMJun 07 21:13
schestowitzEx-Microsoft marketing manager said:Jun 07 21:13
schestowitzOf course Microsoft has a perception management team and specificallyJun 07 21:13
schestowitztargets Web 2.0 sites like Digg and Reddit. Some of this is outsourcedJun 07 21:13
schestowitzas well. It is felt inside MS that the reason why Vista failed was thatJun 07 21:13
schestowitzon Web 2.0 sites it became fashionable to bad mouth the OS, this turnedJun 07 21:13
schestowitzin to group think and thus the OS failed. Seriously, that is the beliefJun 07 21:13
schestowitzand there is at least some merit to it. Lets be real, Vista is just notJun 07 21:13
schestowitzas bad as it is painted.Jun 07 21:13
schestowitzNow contrast that to Windows 7; Microsoft have spent a lot of moneyJun 07 21:13
schestowitzmanipulating user generated content sites to hype the OS. Let me tellJun 07 21:13
schestowitzyou, it is not so much different from Vista but the perception is thatJun 07 21:13
schestowitzis it much better. Again, lets be real, Windows 7 is just Vista withJun 07 21:13
schestowitzsome UI tweaks and *much* better marketing.Jun 07 21:13
schestowitzWatch for the talking points used, this is starting now but will beJun 07 21:13
schestowitzpushed harder after Win7 is released, I would expect "Windows 7 is theJun 07 21:13
schestowitzdeath blow to Linux on the desktop" will be a favourite.Jun 07 21:13
schestowitzI think it is poor form for MS to manipulate sites like Digg, there willJun 07 21:13
schestowitzbe a backlash when the users figure it out.Jun 07 21:13
schestowitz===Jun 07 21:13
schestowitzMicrosoft should be sued for thisJun 07 21:13
DaemonFChttp://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9991/49853798.pngJun 07 21:13
schestowitzAlso the libel it give Linux advocates in DiggJun 07 21:13
DaemonFCadded to my screenshot gallery :PJun 07 21:13
MinceRDaemonFC: go back to the hole you climbed out ofJun 07 21:14
yuhongWindows 7 is of course a lot more than just that.Jun 07 21:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: stop shoving your MS stuff hereJun 07 21:14
schestowitzIt's about GNU/Linux here.Jun 07 21:14
schestowitzSmells like "buzz marketing"Jun 07 21:14
yuhongBut I certainly don't agree and would never claim that "Windows 7 is the death blow to Linux on the desktop"!Jun 07 21:15
_Hicham_It was planned to port Winamp to LinuxJun 07 21:15
_Hicham_but they stopped thatJun 07 21:15
_Hicham_it was planned at version 3Jun 07 21:15
DaemonFCWMP 12 seems to support DivX and MPEG-4 properly at leastJun 07 21:16
DaemonFCthat only took 10 yearsJun 07 21:16
_Hicham_haha, DaemonFC is using AVG AntivirusJun 07 21:16
yuhongThat IMO is just rediclous!Jun 07 21:17
_Hicham_natively?Jun 07 21:17
DaemonFCyes, nativelyJun 07 21:17
_Hicham_greatJun 07 21:17
DaemonFCbut I couldn't get Ogg or FLAC decoders to workJun 07 21:17
balzacSo they've admitted gaming these user-moderated forumsJun 07 21:17
DaemonFCMicrosoft says that will change in the final versionJun 07 21:17
_Hicham_even with DS filters?Jun 07 21:18
DaemonFCyesJun 07 21:18
DaemonFCI've heard they fixed the launching Vorbis files from library breaks the seeker bugJun 07 21:18
DaemonFCwe'll seeJun 07 21:18
DaemonFCI don't really feel like going and finding a leaked build to verifyJun 07 21:19
_Hicham_did u try MediaPlayerClassic ?Jun 07 21:19
DaemonFCI have before, but it just feels wrongJun 07 21:19
DaemonFCit feels like Windows Media Player 6.4 from the mid 90sJun 07 21:19
DaemonFCyuckJun 07 21:19
_Hicham_I am talking about functionalityJun 07 21:20
_Hicham_not the UIJun 07 21:20
yuhongI, once in a previous IRC chat, discussed Nehalem-EX, the changes to Server 2008 R2 to support more than 64 CPUs, and x2APIC.Jun 07 21:20
yuhonghttp://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=249Jun 07 21:20
yuhongHere is another change in Windows 7.Jun 07 21:20
DaemonFCwell, there's so many media players that can plug into DirectShow, that this isn't worth squabbling aboutJun 07 21:20
DaemonFCand then there's VLC of courseJun 07 21:20
_Hicham_VLC can plug into DirectShow?Jun 07 21:21
DaemonFCno, it has its own engineJun 07 21:21
yuhongIn fact, recently Intel demoed Nehalem-EX and showed a Task Manager showing 128 CPUs.Jun 07 21:21
DaemonFCbut I haven't ran into anything it can't playJun 07 21:21
neighborleeThat likely is default on all OS's so yeah I agree its really doesn't matter much < vlc is default on both my OS"s here>Jun 07 21:21
_Hicham_RealMedia filesJun 07 21:21
_Hicham_they are not readable by vlcJun 07 21:21
DaemonFCWinamp also has its own engineJun 07 21:21
DaemonFCit can plug into DirectShow to play and encode WMA thoughJun 07 21:21
DaemonFCbut I don't use that, so I have no reason to careJun 07 21:22
_Hicham_what about MPlayer?Jun 07 21:22
DaemonFCMPlayer plugs into DirectShow on Windows I believeJun 07 21:22
balzacMozilla ought to put a warning on Firefox about the .net trojanJun 07 21:23
DaemonFCI don't really think DirectShow is such a great engineJun 07 21:23
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DaemonFCWinamp by far has the best decoders out of the typical media player lineup on WindowsJun 07 21:23
balzacIt will certainly compromise security for Firefox users who thought they were protected by virtue of using firefoxJun 07 21:23
yuhongWell, not as badly as ActiveX.Jun 07 21:23
balzacnow this .net plugin is going to cause penis-enlargement pop-ups and security vulnerabilitiesJun 07 21:24
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DaemonFCWinamp is by far better than the ISO reference decodersJun 07 21:24
balzacyeah, but it was done without users consentJun 07 21:24
yuhongBecause unlike ActiveX, .NET is sandboxed thanks to the CLR.Jun 07 21:24
DaemonFCto the point where ytou can use encoding that sounds great in Winamp but not well tolerated by portablesJun 07 21:24
DaemonFCand QuicktimeJun 07 21:24
_Hicham_DirectShow is a base engineJun 07 21:25
_Hicham_which is extensibleJun 07 21:25
_Hicham_Gstreamer took this approachJun 07 21:25
DaemonFCyeah, I was going to say in theory, Gstreamer works the same way as MS DirectShowJun 07 21:25
DaemonFConly Gstreamer is far betterJun 07 21:25
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_Hicham_I am quite surprised to hear that from uJun 07 21:27
DaemonFCmost players ship with their own decoding engine because DirectShow isn't all that greatJun 07 21:28
_Hicham_Gstreamer have a really great APIJun 07 21:28
DaemonFCplugging your player into SirectShow would be like Firefox using the Trident (IE) rendering engine because it's thereJun 07 21:28
_Hicham_Gstreamer have problems with Real Media files tooJun 07 21:28
DaemonFCpretty weak argumentJun 07 21:28
DaemonFC*DirectshowJun 07 21:28
_Hicham_MPlayer have the most complete engine till nowJun 07 21:29
_Hicham_MPlayer can play anythingJun 07 21:29
_Hicham_I am using by default nowJun 07 21:29
_Hicham_totem lacks a lot of thingsJun 07 21:29
DaemonFCI think in Windows 7, a lot of players that were shipping their own engines will plug into DirectShow thoughJun 07 21:30
_Hicham_I mailed to its developer, but he seemed uninterstedJun 07 21:30
DaemonFCeasy way to get out of the licensing fees for playing MPEG-4Jun 07 21:30
DaemonFCWMP 12 and DirectX 11 will be backported to VistaJun 07 21:30
_Hicham_are u sure u have to pay to play MPEG-4?Jun 07 21:30
DaemonFCso you could probably count on native MPEG-4 within Vista's lifespanJun 07 21:31
DaemonFCyeah you doJun 07 21:31
twitter"balzac: Mozilla ought to put a warning on Firefox about the .net trojan"  Windows itself is a trojan.  The incident is another good reason to migrate.Jun 07 21:31
DaemonFCif you make a product that encodes it or plays it backJun 07 21:31
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DaemonFCI'm saying to get out of paying the royalties you could just use DirectShow nowJun 07 21:31
_Hicham_great solutionJun 07 21:32
_Hicham_but u will pay MS I thinkJun 07 21:32
DaemonFCwell, technically you already didJun 07 21:32
DaemonFCwhen you bought WindowsJun 07 21:32
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DaemonFCthat's the ideaJun 07 21:32
DaemonFCMPEG hides their licensing fees from the end userJun 07 21:33
DaemonFCby charging the device makerJun 07 21:33
DaemonFCwho incorporates the fee into the retail price of the productJun 07 21:33
DaemonFCso you pay for the license to play back MP3, and M4A/AAC when you buy a portableJun 07 21:33
_Hicham_Canonical by the way, sells legal codecsJun 07 21:33
DaemonFCeven if you only use Vorbis on that portableJun 07 21:34
DaemonFCyeah, the selling of legal codecs is a way out for themJun 07 21:34
_Hicham_they are selling some productsJun 07 21:34
DaemonFCit's kind of a wink and a nod towards legitimacy while still offering the unlicensed versionsJun 07 21:34
_Hicham_like PowerDVDJun 07 21:34
DaemonFCwell, I took a look at Fluendo's codec packJun 07 21:35
DaemonFCthe interesting bit is they develop GStreamer and help fund and develop Vorbis and FLACJun 07 21:35
DaemonFCso you're buying a license to use MPEG and Windows Media, but also funding work on their replacementJun 07 21:36
DaemonFCI kind of like thatJun 07 21:36
_Hicham_that is a good way to do Open SourceJun 07 21:37
DaemonFCthe option to buy legal codecs is there for users of most Linux distrosJun 07 21:37
_Hicham_that is the way Open Source should beJun 07 21:37
DaemonFCbut I don't know that that many Linux users do the right thingJun 07 21:37
DaemonFCand paying for a codec might make sense in some casesJun 07 21:38
twitterFashionable to say bad things about Vista?  Let's be real, there were lots of bad things to say.  It was a train wreck.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855Jun 07 21:38
DaemonFCmaybe you need a feature in MPEG-4 that Vorbis or Theora can't give youJun 07 21:38
twitterand it still is http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/215957Jun 07 21:38
_Hicham_no, it won'tJun 07 21:39
DaemonFCVorbis is in the same league as Low Complexity AACJun 07 21:39
twitterI'm not sure how people put up with VistaJun 07 21:39
DaemonFCbut there's other AAC profiles that are more advanced than VorbisJun 07 21:39
_Hicham_the R&D in Vorbis is bigger than in MPEG-4Jun 07 21:39
twitterI have a hard enough time getting things done with XP.Jun 07 21:39
twitterGNU/Linux is much better.Jun 07 21:39
_Hicham_Vorbis is an Open FormatJun 07 21:40
DaemonFCI encode to the MPEG-4 container, not AACJun 07 21:40
twitterVorbis is freeJun 07 21:40
_Hicham_means it is Xiph+CommunityJun 07 21:40
twitterno patents, no headachesJun 07 21:40
DaemonFCputting them in the AAC capsule gives you some extra tagging optionsJun 07 21:40
DaemonFCbut increases the file size by about 3-5%Jun 07 21:40
twitterEvery media player should include Vorbis because they can without cost.Jun 07 21:40
twitterEEE PC used theora as it's default movie format.Jun 07 21:41
DaemonFCWinamp won't let you encode to VorbisJun 07 21:41
DaemonFCbut it can play itJun 07 21:41
DaemonFCand it has an encoder for FLACJun 07 21:41
twitterDump Winamp.Jun 07 21:41
twitterDump Windows.Jun 07 21:41
DaemonFCit can also transcode Vorbis to MP3 or M4AJun 07 21:41
twitterwhy would you do that?Jun 07 21:42
DaemonFCcompatibilityJun 07 21:42
_Hicham_How do Winamp people make money?Jun 07 21:42
_Hicham_from the paid version?Jun 07 21:42
twitterwell, good luck watching the resultJun 07 21:42
DaemonFCnumber of waysJun 07 21:42
DaemonFCI bought my copy of WinampJun 07 21:43
_Hicham_really?Jun 07 21:43
twitterFor compatibility, you should just buy media players that work with free formats.Jun 07 21:43
yuhongWell, I put up with Vista and my only real complant is that on my 1.5 GB RAM machine, it sometimes is slow if I have too many apps open.Jun 07 21:43
DaemonFCyeahJun 07 21:43
_Hicham_the Pro Version?Jun 07 21:43
_Hicham_for how much?Jun 07 21:43
_Hicham_$30?Jun 07 21:43
DaemonFCbuying it gives you access to High Efficiency AAC and a bunch of other nice stuffJun 07 21:43
DaemonFC$20Jun 07 21:43
yuhongIn face, I am downloading Windows 7 RC right now.Jun 07 21:43
_Hicham_you are a legal userJun 07 21:43
twitterI've got hundreds of user submitted Vista complaints if you want to watch them, yohongJun 07 21:43
DaemonFCyesJun 07 21:43
DaemonFCWinampp is still freewareJun 07 21:44
twitterI'm a legal userJun 07 21:44
_Hicham_why not pirated serials on the net?Jun 07 21:44
twitterlegal citizen tooJun 07 21:44
DaemonFCand you can use most of its features without paying them anythingJun 07 21:44
_Hicham_piratedJun 07 21:44
yuhongI know about some of them, but for me it is OK.Jun 07 21:44
twitterit's amazing that laws would ban users.Jun 07 21:44
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Cause I like Winamp and I want them to stay in business mostlyJun 07 21:44
yuhongI use Process Explorer on Vista to check how much memory my apps are using.Jun 07 21:44
DaemonFCI don't even use HE-AAC that muchJun 07 21:45
twitterWhy settle for OK, when you can have great, yuhong?Jun 07 21:45
yuhongFor now, the app that is consuming the most RAM is Firefox.Jun 07 21:45
_Hicham_if Audacious got ported to Windows, Winamp will be in troubleJun 07 21:45
twitterYou could have FF with better performance under GNU/LinuxJun 07 21:45
mib_qj04josome 3rd party FF addons are a bit leakyJun 07 21:46
_Hicham_twitter : Firefox Windows is betterJun 07 21:46
_Hicham_that is know to everyoneJun 07 21:46
twitterI don't believe that.  I think it's a lieJun 07 21:46
_Hicham_no, it is the truthJun 07 21:46
yuhongI am running Ubuntu 8.10 on another much older computer with a Duron, however.Jun 07 21:46
twitterand Bill Gates is working to fix it anyway.Jun 07 21:46
_Hicham_from my experienceJun 07 21:46
DaemonFCthere was one build of Winamp for LinuxJun 07 21:46
DaemonFCback in 2003Jun 07 21:46
_Hicham_did u test it?Jun 07 21:46
DaemonFCthen they haven't done anything else with Linux sinceJun 07 21:47
DaemonFCyeahJun 07 21:47
DaemonFCyou can still get itJun 07 21:47
DaemonFCit's an alpha of Winamp 3Jun 07 21:47
_Hicham_I seen it somewhereJun 07 21:47
_Hicham_but it doesn't even have a gui I think?Jun 07 21:47
twitterVista itself makes the computer run slow.  How can FF + Vista be "better" than FF + any good GNU/Linux?Jun 07 21:47
DaemonFCit doesJun 07 21:47
twitterIt makes no sense.Jun 07 21:47
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DaemonFCWinamp 3 for Linux had the same features as the Windows versionJun 07 21:47
DaemonFCbut Winamp 3 never had ShoutcastJun 07 21:48
_Hicham_twitter : u can do the test urselfJun 07 21:48
DaemonFCwhich pissed a lot of people offJun 07 21:48
twitterI've seen that test, it's a lie.Jun 07 21:48
yuhongBTW, on Firefox on Linux, I remember that the trademark cause trouble with Debian, which meant it had to rename it to Iceweasel.Jun 07 21:48
_Hicham_Firefox Windows on Wine <vs> Firefox FedoraJun 07 21:48
twitterFC showed them to me, it's a bunch of BS javascript tests.Jun 07 21:48
DaemonFCnot just thatJun 07 21:48
_Hicham_by the way, Firefox Fedora is the fastest on LinuxJun 07 21:48
_Hicham_from my experience tooJun 07 21:48
yuhongVista don't by itself make the computer slow for me.Jun 07 21:49
twitterThat does not measure browser performance for anything useful, just performance on sites made for IE.Jun 07 21:49
DaemonFCPeaceKeeper shows that Firefox on Windows performs betterJun 07 21:49
DaemonFCacross the boardJun 07 21:49
twitterLike I said, it's a bull shit test.Jun 07 21:49
balzacHughes Networks is not broadbandJun 07 21:49
yuhongBTW, on the MS Surface review that MS asked to have pulled, >Look at take 2:Jun 07 21:49
DaemonFCit murders the Linux version on page reflowJun 07 21:49
DaemonFClmaoJun 07 21:49
balzacTheir download limit is 200 Megabytes per day!Jun 07 21:49
fewaDaemonFC, its not a good testJun 07 21:49
yuhongBTW, on the MS Surface review that MS asked to have pulled,Look at take 2:Jun 07 21:49
balzacI think you can download more with dialupJun 07 21:49
yuhongBTW, on the MS Surface review that MS asked to have pulled, Look at take 2:Jun 07 21:49
_Hicham_Chromium on Linux is as fast as Chome on WindowsJun 07 21:50
twitteryour posting bot has a problem, yuhong.Jun 07 21:50
yuhonghttp://kinesismomentum.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/skin-deep-usability-take-2/Jun 07 21:50
twitterlolJun 07 21:50
yuhongThis one I just copied and pasted and I had trouble with the formatting.Jun 07 21:50
yuhongThis one I just copied and pasted and I had trouble with the formatting, sorry.Jun 07 21:50
twitternot a problemJun 07 21:51
twitternot a problemJun 07 21:51
yuhongIt mentions Commercial and Developer versions of Surface.Jun 07 21:51
DaemonFCto be honest, Winamp is one of the few reasons I keep Windows aroundJun 07 21:52
_Hicham_It is a good testJun 07 21:52
twitterYeah, we all saw those excuses weeks ago.  It was a lie then and it's a lie now.Jun 07 21:52
twitterM$ Surface blows.Jun 07 21:52
_Hicham_DaemonFC : what about audacious?Jun 07 21:52
yuhongWhy do you think it is a lie?Jun 07 21:52
DaemonFCAudacious is alright I guessJun 07 21:52
twitterBecause they took down their original, honest opinion.Jun 07 21:52
DaemonFCbut it's more geared towards playbackJun 07 21:52
DaemonFCand can't import or transcode inside the playerJun 07 21:52
_Hicham_so u need encoding?Jun 07 21:53
DaemonFCyeahJun 07 21:53
_Hicham_what about audacity?Jun 07 21:53
DaemonFCI tried FAAC on Linux and it was laughably badJun 07 21:53
twitterIt's pretty obvious M$ sent hoards of astroturfers at them and then had  little chat in person.Jun 07 21:53
yuhongYes, they did take it down, but why do you think it is honest?Jun 07 21:53
DaemonFCI'm not just saying it either, take your own WAV file and have FAAC encode itJun 07 21:53
DaemonFCand then try LAMEJun 07 21:53
twitterThe original write up included facts and opinions.Jun 07 21:53
DaemonFCwon't take you long to see that something is horribly wrong with FAACJun 07 21:53
twitterfacts about what a pain it wasJun 07 21:53
yuhongI want you to look at the actual argument made in take 2.Jun 07 21:53
twitterI already read it.Jun 07 21:54
yuhongWhy do you think it is a lie?Jun 07 21:54
twitterIt's an excuse.  None of it should be such a pain.Jun 07 21:54
_Hicham_I think Winamp is written in MFC, like all commercial stuff?Jun 07 21:54
DaemonFCalthough since Nero is making a Linux version of their AAC encoder, it may take away one of the arguments for staying with WindowsJun 07 21:54
twitterThe opinion, "It's so Microsofty" is a classic.Jun 07 21:54
DaemonFCif I can find a decent frontend for the encoderJun 07 21:54
twitterReputation confirmed.Jun 07 21:54
yuhongWhat part of the review is an excuse?Jun 07 21:55
_Hicham_did u try audacity?Jun 07 21:55
DaemonFCthat's more geared to editing and can only export to WAV, Vorbis, or MP3Jun 07 21:55
_Hicham_Avidemux?Jun 07 21:55
twitterOh, they just "slipped through the cracks" - as if M$ "support" was worth the $50/hour they charge.Jun 07 21:55
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DaemonFCcan it encode to AAC/M4A, produce an ISO-compliant file, and sound good?Jun 07 21:56
DaemonFCthose are my three big requirementsJun 07 21:56
twitterThey are gushing a bunch of talking points to try to make up for the public relations disaster honest reviews are for M$.Jun 07 21:56
DaemonFCthe way I understand it, FAAC has never been a good encoder when you go to try to play it back with an ISO reference decoderJun 07 21:57
DaemonFCand that's been 8 years running nowJun 07 21:57
DaemonFCthe FAAC people even link to the Nero encoder in case you need strict ISO complianceJun 07 21:57
twitter8 years.  almost as old as XP.Jun 07 21:57
yuhongI get it now, what do you think about having 2 versions of Surface.Jun 07 21:57
_Hicham_DaemonFC : http://fixounet.free.fr/avidemux/Jun 07 21:58
DaemonFCit says MP4, but that could mean only videoJun 07 21:58
balzacMy rage is growingJun 07 21:58
_Hicham_http://downloads.sourceforge.net/avidemux/avidemux_2.4.4_win32.exeJun 07 21:58
twitterI don't care about Surface.  People I know have used it and think it's overpriced junk. Pure hype.Jun 07 21:58
DaemonFCthats why MP4 audio files use filename.m4aJun 07 21:59
yuhongWhy do you think it is just talking points.Jun 07 21:59
balzacI recommended my dear mother buy a Dell mini with Ubuntu pre-installedJun 07 21:59
DaemonFCno harm in trying itJun 07 21:59
DaemonFCit's freeJun 07 21:59
*DaemonFC clicksJun 07 21:59
twitterI've already told you what I think yuhong.Jun 07 21:59
balzacBut some jack@ss at Dell ruined the Ubuntu installationJun 07 21:59
twitterYou can read my comments about it on BN as well.Jun 07 21:59
balzacthey made the boot-loader not display, so you can't get into recovery mode to reset a passwordJun 07 22:00
balzacmust have been a Microsoftie at Dell who screwed it up. Any competent GNU/Linux admin wouldn't have configured it in such a way as to cripple the OS.Jun 07 22:00
twitterbalzac, use a boot disk with grub point it at the hard driveJun 07 22:00
balzacSo then, I ask her to downloadJun 07 22:00
DaemonFCIf anything, I'm biased to Linux when it comes to multimedia encoding, because when it works, it works wellJun 07 22:00
DaemonFCand fasterJun 07 22:00
DaemonFCsince there's 64-bit programs for itJun 07 22:01
balzactwitter: I can't install any software on it, so I can't easily make a boot diskJun 07 22:01
balzacso I asked her to download a CDJun 07 22:01
twitterBoot it off an external DVDJun 07 22:01
balzacit would take more than 3 days to download a CD from Hughes Networks "broadband"Jun 07 22:01
twitterlike knoppix and just use the grub CLI to boot UbuntuJun 07 22:01
DaemonFCencoding a dozen CDs to M4a on Windows is torturously long and complicated, but if FAAC on Linux spits out junk files really fast, that's not good eitherJun 07 22:01
balzacso she's about to drive to a nearby town to download a frigging CDJun 07 22:01
twitterI suppose you don't have a boot CD or optical disk with you.Jun 07 22:02
balzacHughes Networks should be driven into bankruptcyJun 07 22:02
balzacnoJun 07 22:02
twitterGet your money back for the laptop.Jun 07 22:02
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balzacSo these guys from Dell tried to get her to buy an optical CD driveJun 07 22:02
twitterDo it again.Jun 07 22:02
balzacI said she doesn't want that junkJun 07 22:02
balzacDell made the bug by misconfiguring grubJun 07 22:02
twitterGet them to give you your money back.Jun 07 22:03
balzacthen they want her to buy a peice of junk so they can re-install from a CDJun 07 22:03
DaemonFC_Hicham_ It won't open FLACJun 07 22:03
balzacwell, the thing is, I appreciate Dell having Ubuntu availableJun 07 22:03
balzacthey fixed this in later versionsJun 07 22:03
twitterAn external drive is a good part of your tool kit.  You can buy external CD roms at thrift stores for under $20.Jun 07 22:03
_Hicham_DaemonFC : FLAC is not listed at all?Jun 07 22:03
DaemonFCfor Avidemux?Jun 07 22:04
DaemonFCnoJun 07 22:04
twitterDell did not make Ubuntu available to you, get your money back.Jun 07 22:04
DaemonFCcan't open themJun 07 22:04
balzactwitter: true, they did failJun 07 22:04
twitterDemand what they advertised.Jun 07 22:04
twitterHave them apologize to your mom.Jun 07 22:04
balzactwitter: you know what they'll do? just waste more of my time.Jun 07 22:04
twitterI'm sorry to hear that.Jun 07 22:05
balzacI spent enough time cancelling the other orderJun 07 22:05
balzactwitter: there's only one solution - beat these guys in business.Jun 07 22:05
balzacdo a better job.Jun 07 22:05
twitterThe next best solution is to take the laptop with you to a place where you have decent tools and fix it yourself.Jun 07 22:05
balzacbusiness is war by other meansJun 07 22:05
balzacand I'm getting ready to be a warlord of the IT businessJun 07 22:05
balzacbecause some people need competitionJun 07 22:05
twitterI wish you well.Jun 07 22:06
balzactwitter: she's in another stateJun 07 22:06
twitterYou will have to mail it to her.Jun 07 22:06
twitterOr simply get your money back.Jun 07 22:06
balzacanyway, Hughes Networks should not get to use the word "broadband" in their advertisementsJun 07 22:06
balzacand they should be fined in a class-action lawsuit for deceiving peopleJun 07 22:06
twitterIs there a coffee shop near by?Jun 07 22:06
twitterLibrary?Jun 07 22:07
balzacshe's going to the nearest townJun 07 22:07
balzacactually driving for 15 minutes to download a CDJun 07 22:07
twitterI'd have asked for my money back before I did all of that.Jun 07 22:07
balzactwitter: I don't want to waitJun 07 22:07
twitterWhat's the rush?Jun 07 22:08
balzactick-tock, every day is another day closer to the graveJun 07 22:08
twitterare either of you ill?Jun 07 22:08
yuhongI personally side with balzac, because it is a minor mistake in the config of Ubuntu, IMO.Jun 07 22:08
balzacSo I better get my business going because I have a lot of business vendettas to deliver on before I die.Jun 07 22:08
twitterOK.Jun 07 22:09
balzachttp://www.disruptech.comJun 07 22:09
balzacHughes Networks should be crushedJun 07 22:09
balzacMicrosoft should be driven to bankruptcyJun 07 22:09
balzacI don't see any IT CEOs who are appropriately pissed at these monopolistsJun 07 22:09
yuhongNote that I was talking about Ubuntu, I am not sure about Hughes Networks, I am not familiar with the name.Jun 07 22:10
yuhongI suggest that Steve Ballmer be replaced.Jun 07 22:10
twitterM$ should be made to pay their victims.Jun 07 22:10
balzacyeah, I'm not saying Dell needs crushingJun 07 22:10
balzacbut competition for Dell would be healthyJun 07 22:10
balzacbecause they've been helping M$ over the yearsJun 07 22:10
yuhongCertainly.Jun 07 22:10
balzacThe phone companies need a kick in the junkJun 07 22:11
twitterPeople responsible for crimes should be sued.Jun 07 22:11
balzacthe "broadband" companies need to get shaken up harshlyJun 07 22:11
MinceRpeople responsible for crimes must be punished.Jun 07 22:11
balzacThe US used to be top in broadband, and now we're way down the listJun 07 22:11
balzacyepJun 07 22:11
balzacThey need to get clubbed over the head with the law, and then new entrepreneurs can take the marketshare these established monopolists will relinquishJun 07 22:12
yuhongReminds me of Intel and open source, what do you think is happening?Jun 07 22:12
balzacThe broadband companies are in collusion with each other to suppress bandwidthJun 07 22:12
yuhongI know, "net neutrality".Jun 07 22:13
balzacwell, certain people need to get defeated in the public forumJun 07 22:13
twitterOpen Spectrum is the solution, yuhong.  Networks without owners are inherently neutral.Jun 07 22:14
balzacBill Gates acts like he's the nicest guy in the world, but his company is really like the carcass of a beached whale rotting on top of the software industryJun 07 22:14
balzacGNU Radio is importantJun 07 22:14
balzacnew low-power processors to give Intel and AMD a reason to offer non-DRM-crippled chips, and for Nvidia and ATI to release their specs to free software driver developersJun 07 22:15
schestowitztwitter: you're talking to an MS agent, I thinkJun 07 22:15
schestowitzBe carefulJun 07 22:15
schestowitzHe's from Seattle, tooJun 07 22:15
twitterA neighbor from the Borg.Jun 07 22:16
balzacProgress is slow, but I don't want to be an old man before I can get a little satisfaction as an IT entrepreneurJun 07 22:16
balzacthere are too many anti-competitive monopolies tying up the industryJun 07 22:16
schestowitzBut it's hard to identify themJun 07 22:16
balzacthe Gaming industry is almost purely proprietaryJun 07 22:16
schestowitzearlier today I mistakenly called someone among us "ilk"Jun 07 22:17
schestowitzThat's why Turfing worksJun 07 22:17
balzacwell, it's because it's collusion between a group of top companiesJun 07 22:17
schestowitzLike in USENET, it makes everyone a suspectJun 07 22:17
schestowitzIt make hostilityJun 07 22:17
twitterTrue.  They like being hard to identify.  The goal is to disrupt community.Jun 07 22:17
schestowitzMcirosoft calls it "perception management"Jun 07 22:17
yuhongRight, I am from Shoreline, which is why reading about MS visits on BN was interesting.Jun 07 22:17
schestowitzI have a post about it tomorrowJun 07 22:17
schestowitzyuhong: what is your relationship with MS?Jun 07 22:17
balzacWe can't beat corporations only with community, you have to build corporations to defeat other corporations.Jun 07 22:17
schestowitzWhat do you do for a living?Jun 07 22:18
schestowitzI don't need company namesJun 07 22:18
schestowitzFrom what I could gather for a year you're "buzz marketing"Jun 07 22:18
yuhongI am a student from Shorewood High School.Jun 07 22:18
twitterIf they can't own a channel they try to destroy it.  The two are equivalent as far as freedom is concerned.Jun 07 22:18
schestowitzSlated was gonna kick you for it too.. now you're being more subtleJun 07 22:18
schestowitzyuhong: why do you promote MS here?Jun 07 22:18
schestowitzWhy here?Jun 07 22:18
schestowitzWhy MS?Jun 07 22:18
yuhongI don't always promote MS here.Jun 07 22:18
schestowitzTrueJun 07 22:19
twitterI'm sure you do it elsewhere too. ....Jun 07 22:19
schestowitzNot just hereJun 07 22:19
twitterlolJun 07 22:19
schestowitzYou do it in other sites tooJun 07 22:19
yuhongRead the IRC logs and all my comments.Jun 07 22:19
schestowitzLike Roughly DraftedJun 07 22:19
schestowitzSites that are hostile t/w MSJun 07 22:19
yuhongYep, sometimes.Jun 07 22:19
twitterI'd rather not read all of that.Jun 07 22:19
schestowitzyuhong: here's a ruleJun 07 22:19
schestowitzIf you come here to sing praises about MS, then you're more or less disruptingJun 07 22:20
schestowitzWe don't need MS marketing hereJun 07 22:20
schestowitzDaemonFC has his moments too and he does this to aggravate, I rreckonJun 07 22:20
yuhongIndeed, I don't always premote MS.Jun 07 22:20
schestowitzYou doJun 07 22:20
schestowitzThen you hide itJun 07 22:20
schestowitzThe "Don't get me wrong, but.."Jun 07 22:20
schestowitzI know the patternsJun 07 22:21
schestowitzI've seen them for yearsJun 07 22:21
twittermind controlJun 07 22:21
twitteralways talking about M$ this and that.Jun 07 22:21
balzacyuhong: do you prefer MS? I'm asking here in a conversational tone.Jun 07 22:21
DaemonFCschestowitz: Everything does some of the things I want them to do sometimesJun 07 22:21
yuhongI link Linux.Jun 07 22:21
balzacandroid, or gnu/linuxJun 07 22:21
DaemonFCthe question seems to be which ones do what I want them to do, well enough, most of the time?Jun 07 22:21
yuhongOn the pattern, can you give me an example.Jun 07 22:22
twitterIf it were not for FC, I'd never see so much Vista.Jun 07 22:22
_Hicham_DaemonFC is influentialJun 07 22:22
balzacI think "Linux" applies to embedded Linux without GNU userspace, as well as AndroidJun 07 22:22
yuhongI do like Linux.Jun 07 22:22
balzacwhat about GNU?Jun 07 22:22
twitterIt's not like you see Vista in the wild.Jun 07 22:22
_Hicham_who doesn't like Linux?Jun 07 22:22
yuhongI do link Linux.Jun 07 22:22
yuhongI do like. Linux.Jun 07 22:22
yuhongFor some reason I always misspell like.Jun 07 22:23
yuhongSorry.Jun 07 22:23
balzacwhat about GNU?Jun 07 22:23
twitterThere's been a lot of talk about how GNU sucks, GCC is junk, X11 has problems .... all bullshit.Jun 07 22:23
yuhongAgreed.Jun 07 22:23
balzacwell, you've got an interesting context for conversation hereJun 07 22:23
yuhongschestowitz: can you give me an example?Jun 07 22:24
balzacI've been suspicious of a guy who goes on about how GCC sucksJun 07 22:24
balzacor GNUJun 07 22:24
yuhongI agree.Jun 07 22:24
balzacbut I've been known to criticize the way the Linux kernel project is runJun 07 22:24
twitteroiohm does thatJun 07 22:24
twitterFC joins inJun 07 22:24
yuhong I don't think GCC or GNU or Linux or Mac sucks.Jun 07 22:24
_Hicham_yes, it does sometimesJun 07 22:24
schestowitzI've seen enough forums being ruined by shillsJun 07 22:25
_Hicham_gcc still lacks some essential featuresJun 07 22:25
schestowitzThey ruined Digg, Slashdot, USENET, etc.Jun 07 22:25
schestowitzThey tried to ruin GroklawJun 07 22:25
schestowitzBut there was a ban policyJun 07 22:25
balzacschestowitz: the shills who have an impersonal touch are the worstJun 07 22:25
yuhongI knowJun 07 22:25
_Hicham_but they will never ruin BNJun 07 22:25
balzacor who use character attacksJun 07 22:25
schestowitzyuhong: I won't let you ruin things, so please stick by the rukesJun 07 22:25
schestowitztwitter: not just talking MSJun 07 22:25
schestowitzAlso posting Vista screenshotsJun 07 22:25
schestowitzYou know who I'm talking aboutJun 07 22:25
yuhongCan you give me an example of the pattern you are talking about.Jun 07 22:26
schestowitzOops, twitter , you beat me to itJun 07 22:26
twitter:)Jun 07 22:26
schestowitzAnd yesm even pointless screenshots that show nothing of significanceJun 07 22:26
schestowitzit's called minshareJun 07 22:26
schestowitz*mindJun 07 22:26
balzacwell, it depends on whether or not you're deliberately being antagonistic rather than sincereJun 07 22:27
balzacsome guys in forums will say things which are the verbal equivalent of chaffJun 07 22:27
balzacdistracting, confusing, uninformativeJun 07 22:27
twitterVista screen shot on BN are deliberateJun 07 22:27
schestowitzFSDaily is under attack nowJun 07 22:27
schestowitzThe managers said soJun 07 22:27
schestowitzThey try to ruiins it like DiggJun 07 22:27
schestowitzAstroTurfersJun 07 22:28
schestowitzFrom anti-Linux sites, by their admissionJun 07 22:28
balzacThis guy who must have been acting as a "wing-man" for a douche-bag in a bar came up and started talking to me, right when his friend hit on the girl I had been in conversation withJun 07 22:28
schestowitzAnd Ubuntu Forums tooJun 07 22:28
twitterBasically all free software sites are under attack then.Jun 07 22:28
balzacso his conversation was just so much noise meant to waste my timeJun 07 22:28
MinceRschestowitz: aren't you afraid shills will ruin this channel too?Jun 07 22:28
schestowitzushimitsudoki showed me a threat they started this morning in Ubuntu ForumsJun 07 22:28
schestowitzAn attack on us... and me personallyJun 07 22:28
schestowitzIn Ubuntu ForumsJun 07 22:28
twitterI've read that you can purchase astroturf cheap in ChinaJun 07 22:28
schestowitzSame anti-Linux sites, coming in drives to communities to posion themJun 07 22:29
balzaci don't know yuhong personally, so I wouldn't know if he's sincere or notJun 07 22:29
schestowitzMinceR: yes, that't eh troubleJun 07 22:29
schestowitzBN comments tooJun 07 22:29
yuhongI do agree that MS is a bad example of how to use PR 2.0.Jun 07 22:29
schestowitzMany personal attacks since FridayJun 07 22:29
twitteranti-linux should not be confused with a community movement, it's paid attack.Jun 07 22:29
schestowitzLike someone has just put some money in the Waggener pileJun 07 22:29
balzacin my opinion, if you let people know you're impatient with insincere styles of communication, you've given a heads-upJun 07 22:30
yuhongSun in contrast was a good exampleJun 07 22:30
twittera lot of moneyJun 07 22:30
schestowitztwitter: yes, in China tooJun 07 22:30
schestowitzI have some articles about thisJun 07 22:30
schestowitzYou buy people to AstroTurf sitesJun 07 22:30
schestowitzIt was in the newsJun 07 22:30
schestowitzThe Chinese government and DoD do this tooJun 07 22:30
schestowitzBut that's funded by TAXPAYERSJun 07 22:30
twitterThere are supposedly tens of thousands in China.Jun 07 22:30
schestowitzIsrael too has some disgusting PR campaignsJun 07 22:30
yuhongInteresting to learn about astroturfing.Jun 07 22:31
schestowitzIn fact, many countries with bad reputation and companies likewise do thisJun 07 22:31
twitterpointing a tiny fraction of them at GNU/Linux sites could completely overwhelm them with noiseJun 07 22:31
balzacyuhong: it happens a lotJun 07 22:31
schestowitzThey should be sent to prison, those who organise thisJun 07 22:31
yuhongYep.Jun 07 22:31
balzacon political forums, software community forumsJun 07 22:31
schestowitzIn the press it's TabooJun 07 22:31
schestowitzIt's mostly afraid to cover these issuesJun 07 22:31
balzacand activists like Roy have to be constantly adjusting their own "spam filter" to keep the signal-to-noise ratio favorable enough for readers of his site.Jun 07 22:32
yuhongI know.Jun 07 22:32
_Hicham_schestowitz : don't talk about Israel in the UKJun 07 22:33
schestowitzOr anywhwreJun 07 22:33
schestowitzThey have lobbiesJun 07 22:33
balzacwell, that's why he gets annoyed when something about Microsoft is mentioned which appears to be a "non-sequitor" and also favorable to M$Jun 07 22:33
_Hicham_not anywhereJun 07 22:34
balzacI'll admit something though - I was getting baked and playing Halo yesterdayJun 07 22:34
schestowitzSame with some religious groupsJun 07 22:34
schestowitzThose who defend some currriculumJun 07 22:34
balzacI wouldn't buy that Microsoft console, nor the games, but my friend's girlfriend bought him oneJun 07 22:34
schestowitzTelling what kids need to study and all thatJun 07 22:34
twitterI wonder what Sweaty B thinks about the 40th birthday of Unix.Jun 07 22:34
_Hicham_last one who expulsed them from the UK was Oliver CromwellJun 07 22:34
schestowitztwitter: watch out later this month..Jun 07 22:35
balzacwe used to play, so I decided to make an exception to my no proprietary software rule to play a game which is familiar to my old friendJun 07 22:35
schestowitzI expose Ballmer's crimesJun 07 22:35
schestowitzCrime crimeJun 07 22:35
schestowitzBut I need to do lots of work laying out the proofJun 07 22:35
schestowitzmaybe some front pagers-worthJun 07 22:35
twittercoolJun 07 22:35
_Hicham_Ballmer is a great mathematicianJun 07 22:35
balzacstill, I'm fully committed to seeing Microsoft's monopoly broken and consuming their marketshare to the best of my abilityJun 07 22:35
schestowitzSo I don't want to blow itJun 07 22:35
balzacsoftware freedom is pricelessJun 07 22:35
schestowitz_Hicham_: nope, RMS isJun 07 22:35
schestowitzPerfect SAT scoreJun 07 22:35
schestowitzBallmer just aced the maths partJun 07 22:35
twitterDid he?Jun 07 22:36
schestowitzSays WikipediaJun 07 22:36
twitterOh, LOLJun 07 22:36
schestowitzBut ms WAS not created by programmersJun 07 22:36
schestowitzOops. Wrong CAPSJun 07 22:36
schestowitzIt was made by lawyer+marketer+AllenJun 07 22:36
twitterNo, I like M$ in the past tense.Jun 07 22:36
schestowitzWhom they want to exploitJun 07 22:36
twitterM$ WAS but is NO MOREJun 07 22:37
schestowitzWell, it's like UnisysJun 07 22:37
schestowitzOr GMJun 07 22:37
schestowitzIt's still hereJun 07 22:37
schestowitzBut it has no planJun 07 22:37
schestowitzGoingForward (R)Jun 07 22:37
twitterRMS points to some good GM articles.Jun 07 22:37
schestowitzI know you hate the termJun 07 22:37
schestowitztwitter: yes, seen emJun 07 22:37
schestowitzInc. that from Michael MooreJun 07 22:38
schestowitzHis dad worked in the auto industryJun 07 22:38
schestowitzHe had some confrontations in CNN where they showed itJun 07 22:38
mib_qj04joGates SAT/'s was only 1590 !!! he sucks !Jun 07 22:38
twitterGoingForward, a term of derision indicating the target is ignorant and without plan.Jun 07 22:38
twitterI did not know Gates took the SAT.Jun 07 22:39
twitterDidn't his daddy just buy him a good University?  :)Jun 07 22:39
twitterGreg Palast's GM article was more alarming.  Pension raiding for the benefit of banks.  That's ugly stuff.Jun 07 22:40
twitterI would not be surprised if M$ did the same thing.Jun 07 22:40
ThistleWebtwitter, hey, why spend a lot of money on a good University when you can save money buying a shitty one and using your army of marketing drones to convince people it's a good one? these people don't get rich by spending money they dont need toJun 07 22:41
twitterBrought down government protection while robbing their employees.Jun 07 22:41
yuhongI think MS is being evil because Gates and Ballmer like to use shrewd business tactics.Jun 07 22:41
mib_qj04joWonder how much Harvard would cost ! :)Jun 07 22:41
yuhongI think it is the root cause.Jun 07 22:42
yuhongWhat do you think?Jun 07 22:42
twitterI think the usual policy is to give them a large chunk of money to get them to do what you want, rather than buy it outright.Jun 07 22:42
yuhongEven questionable tactics.Jun 07 22:42
balzacyuhong: they're shrewdness is going to wreck their businessJun 07 22:42
balzacthey're allowing time to pass them byJun 07 22:42
yuhongYep, looks like you agree.Jun 07 22:42
balzacas they cling to archaic software licensesJun 07 22:42
balzacthey're fighting the rising tideJun 07 22:43
yuhongActually, do you know why the Free Software movement was started?Jun 07 22:43
twitterCrime is not shrewd.Jun 07 22:43
balzacto protect computer users freedomJun 07 22:43
balzacyuhong: RMS already told me why he started itJun 07 22:43
twitterdo tell the M$ version of the start of free software, that will be interestingJun 07 22:43
yuhongGates was the one that wrote the open letter to hobbyists.Jun 07 22:44
ThistleWebI wonder how many proprietary buisness will cling on until they are irrelevant, rather than face the inevitableJun 07 22:44
balzacit was originally Unix which was stifling freedomJun 07 22:44
balzacyuhong: trueJun 07 22:44
balzaca very significant letter, asking users of his software not to shareJun 07 22:44
yuhongAnd it was an important step to the invention of non-free software.Jun 07 22:44
mib_qj04joand IBMJun 07 22:44
ThistleWebright now Photoshop is the industry standard, gradually FOSS is getting close to that quality, over time it will be accepted in industry and gradually push Photoshop off it#s perchJun 07 22:45
balzacyuhong: I wouldn't say "proliferation" rather than "invention"Jun 07 22:45
balzacs/wouldn't/would/Jun 07 22:45
balzacGates has ridden that wave for a long timeJun 07 22:45
twitteryeah, yeah, he keeps repeating the same liesJun 07 22:45
balzacbut he's not as much a connisseur of software as RMSJun 07 22:45
yuhongYep, IBM was one that followed the trend toward non-free software and called it OCO software.Jun 07 22:45
ThistleWebat what point do Adobe open source Photoshop to remain the industry standard? or do they cling on an become a minor player?Jun 07 22:45
balzacGates just doesn't appear to really "get it" regarding software and societyJun 07 22:46
twitterGate's gets it.  He wants control.Jun 07 22:46
balzache gets money, but he's not a visionary on software, just a monopolist using some tried and true methods to corrupt regulatorsJun 07 22:47
balzactwitter: he's going to lose itJun 07 22:47
ThistleWebbalzac, remember that any high profile CEO or former CEO is supposed to be talking FOR his companyJun 07 22:47
twitterIt is impossible for him to believe the non free propaganda anymore.Jun 07 22:47
ThistleWebhe will always be in "salesman" mode, promoting his companyJun 07 22:47
balzacGates is about to wear the clown-shoesJun 07 22:47
balzacbecause his software empire is crumblingJun 07 22:47
twitterThat he continues to repeat the lie makes it doubtful that he was ever telling the truth.Jun 07 22:47
balzacwell, Gates has let his mask slipJun 07 22:48
twitterM$ has at least.Jun 07 22:48
balzacA quote featured on BoycottNovell.com had Gates quoted saying something like "every knee shall bow to a silicon fist".Jun 07 22:48
twitterUsing Wikipedia in their new search engine is admission of many things.Jun 07 22:48
yuhongWhat is interesting is that later IBM began supporting open source software.Jun 07 22:49
balzacGates is a real egotist, and there doesn't appear to be any sufficiently powerful egos among the CEOs who compete against MicrosoftJun 07 22:49
yuhongWhat about Larry Ellison?Jun 07 22:49
balzache's more in collussion than a competitorJun 07 22:49
twitterit is an admission that people can cooperate to produce something better in freedom than a company can create under restrictions - Wikipedia is better than Encarta.Jun 07 22:49
balzache is just as indifferent to computer users freedomJun 07 22:50
balzacso he doesn't take up the cause of software freedom.Jun 07 22:50
balzacneither does googleJun 07 22:50
yuhongI found a paper describing the mess IBM have to deal with.Jun 07 22:50
yuhonghttp://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID1081613_code460386.pdf?abstractid=1081613&mirid=1Jun 07 22:50
balzacno big company appears to care about software freedom very much.Jun 07 22:50
twitterThe same principle applied to software completely negates Bills infamous 1976 whineJun 07 22:50
balzacopen letter to hobbyists?Jun 07 22:50
twitterrightJun 07 22:51
yuhongYep.Jun 07 22:51
balzacPublic Whine to HobbyistsJun 07 22:51
twitterhow can he believe that while his company is using Wikipedia and Google?Jun 07 22:51
balzacI would have responded with a public letter of my own saying, please don't distribute your software first, then whine afterwards. I will not use it, nor will I share it.Jun 07 22:51
yuhongIt has a few inaccuracies, such as it's use of GPL and public domain, but otherwise it is good.Jun 07 22:51
twitterM$ employees are GNU/Linux users because they use Google, have wifi routers and other stuff on campusJun 07 22:51
ThistleWebI wonder if Gates really hates FOSS, or just hates anything that threatens his ability to make obscene amounts of moneyJun 07 22:51
balzacGates is driven by ego, much like almost everyone else.Jun 07 22:52
balzacSo when his marketshare collapses, people will have to admit, RMS is the undisputed heavy-weight of software.Jun 07 22:52
twitterMr Gate resented free software's use of APM and ordered ACPI to be created in a way that GNU/Linux could not use.Jun 07 22:53
balzacand Gates ego is like a slug getting salted by that.Jun 07 22:53
yuhongTrue, Oracle do produce non-free software as it's primary software, but I remember Ellison doing dumpster diving to expose MS front groups like ACT, which was IMO very important.Jun 07 22:53
twitterHis hatred, from that perspective, seems personal.Jun 07 22:53
balzacyuhong: interesting.Jun 07 22:53
balzacwell, Larry is more like Bill Gates than he's like RMSJun 07 22:54
twitterI don't know why the richest man in the US would be upset by anything in the software world.  Something is not right with that boy.Jun 07 22:54
yuhongBecause BN discusses many of the front groups that he revealed.Jun 07 22:54
balzacRMS is the one guy with enough fascination with computers and software that he wrote the most innovative license to protect the hackers / academic software communitiesJun 07 22:55
twitter-> "A powerful operating system for interactive use need not be expensive either in equipment or in human effort," Ritchie and Thompson would write five years later in the Communications of the ACM (CACM), the journal of the Association for Computing Machinery. "[We hope that] users of Unix will find that the most important characteristics of the system are its simplicity, elegance, and ease of use."Jun 07 22:55
twitterhttp://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=printArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Operating+Systems&articleId=9133570&taxonomyId=89Jun 07 22:55
DaemonFCI wonder if there's any way of getting Rockbox on that portable I orderedJun 07 22:55
yuhongI can dig up the links again.Jun 07 22:55
twitterIt's better with freedomJun 07 22:55
balzache will prevail over these guys whose only interest in software is their revenue, rather than software and society, computer users' freedom, and deeper questionsJun 07 22:55
twitterIt's broken with WindowsJun 07 22:55
DaemonFCI'd use Vorbis if I can get Rockbox running on itJun 07 22:55
yuhonghttp://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,49039,00.htmlJun 07 22:56
yuhonghttp://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-96149.htmlJun 07 22:56
DaemonFCthe only codecs the company guarantees will work are WMA/MP3/AACJun 07 22:56
DaemonFCout of those, I'll favor AACJun 07 22:56
yuhongSteve Jobs is another good example IMO.Jun 07 22:57
yuhongtwitter: now of course MS and Intel did not end up crippling ACPI that badly. The Foxconn incident was limited to only one motherboard.Jun 07 22:58
balzacAhhh, here we are, slowly dying behind our computers, nibbling on crumbs and discussing the fortunes of great men who own almost everythingJun 07 22:58
twitterI wonder if M$ has infiltrated Google's "Quality Raters" http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20090603/google-and-the-evolution-of-search-scott-huffman/Jun 07 22:58
yuhongIn general, ACPI works pretty well in Linux.Jun 07 22:58
balzacThis is not the lifeJun 07 22:59
twitterIt does now but ACPI is a piece of shit.Jun 07 22:59
yuhongThat is a different matter.Jun 07 22:59
balzacWhere's my yacht?Jun 07 22:59
balzacbrb, getting lunchJun 07 22:59
twitterHere's what I have found about ACPI, yuhong http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/183403Jun 07 22:59
twitterthe M$ munchkins helped me out by making me research deeper and deeper.Jun 07 23:00
twitterNow I have lots of links to lots of informed opinions.Jun 07 23:00
yuhongBTW, you can compare Linux 2.0 to Windows NT 4.0 and Linux 2.2 to Windows 2000.Jun 07 23:02
yuhongACPI is complicated, but the claim that ACPI AML can do more harm than APM is false.Jun 07 23:03
fewayuhong, how do you have any idea the foxconn is only one motherboard?Jun 07 23:04
yuhongAPM was written in raw assembly code, you can from APM code load a flat selector and write to any memory location.Jun 07 23:04
yuhongThe incident was limited only to one particular motherboard and Foxconn was the manufacturer of it.Jun 07 23:05
DaemonFCACPI is so god fucking awful it's beyond funnyJun 07 23:05
DaemonFCIt's so bad that Microsoft had to create an entire subsystem to correct BIOS ACPI bugs to keep them from fucking Windows overJun 07 23:06
DaemonFCand Linux tells the BIOS it is WindowsJun 07 23:06
DaemonFCand emulates Windows ACPI implementationJun 07 23:06
fewayuhong, why compare that way? Windows users rarely upgrade cause windows gets woorse with time. Linux users get new features that windows has never had, and will probably never haveJun 07 23:06
DaemonFCThe Linux kernel developers consider it a bug when Linux does not behave like the current version of Windows with regards to ACPIJun 07 23:07
yuhongfewa: Indeed, often Windows users upgrade by buying new computers.Jun 07 23:08
fewayuhong, because they are forced into itJun 07 23:08
DaemonFCit's not possible to implement ACPI as the standard specifies and have it work properly with your OSJun 07 23:08
neighborleehttps://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=1636829480216297450&postID=2606886577617245534&page=1 < LOL,,last comment on that page LOL ...Genius ;)))< stilll laughing>Jun 07 23:08
yuhongAnd it makes sense anyway because Windows gets more bloated over time.Jun 07 23:08
ThistleWebfewa, sometimes they assume that their PC needs replaced bacause it's slowed downJun 07 23:08
yuhongYep.Jun 07 23:08
DaemonFCdue to Microsoft extensions and incompetent programmers in Bangalore writing the BIOS ROM codeJun 07 23:09
ThistleWebthey dont know it can be defragged, or reinstalled to bring it back to a new stateJun 07 23:09
yuhongDaemonFC: Yep, I know about OSI(Linux) problems.Jun 07 23:09
ThistleWebit's partly why vendors love windowsJun 07 23:09
DaemonFCI defragged my mom's GPS deviceJun 07 23:09
fewacreating the circle of updates, and money for microsoft, due to the lack of security microsoft is negligent to improveJun 07 23:09
DaemonFClmaoJun 07 23:09
DaemonFC(FAT32)Jun 07 23:09
ThistleWebit's bad enough that it works for a while and keeps them coming back to spend money on new stuffJun 07 23:09
DaemonFCnotice how many portables run Linux and use Microsoft file systems?Jun 07 23:10
yuhongThat is not what I am talking about, I am talking about each new Windows upgrade.Jun 07 23:10
DaemonFCthey have to or Windows won't recognize them when you plug the device inJun 07 23:10
fewaDaemonFC, FAT is not a microsoft mile systemJun 07 23:10
fewaits the obvious file systemJun 07 23:10
DaemonFCthen Microsoft sues them for using FAT32Jun 07 23:10
_Hicham_FAT32 is a standardJun 07 23:10
ThistleWebanything that works without breaking for too long, or dont keep pushing new hardware requirements for new versions wont keep people spending moneyJun 07 23:11
yuhongActually, not each Windows upgrade, XP was not all that bloated compared to Windows 2000.Jun 07 23:11
DaemonFCyeah, tell that to TomTomJun 07 23:11
fewaFAT, and FAT32 are some of the simplest file systems possible, they are completely obvious, and not inventionsJun 07 23:11
fewago read the wikipedia articleJun 07 23:11
_Hicham_but they are copyrighted to MicrosoftJun 07 23:11
fewathey can be described in a little chartJun 07 23:11
DaemonFCthat doesn't matter if the law is on Microsoft's sideJun 07 23:11
fewa_Hicham_, linux did not use any microsoft codeJun 07 23:11
DaemonFCyes it's outragous but it's also the way it isJun 07 23:12
ThistleWebI wonder if Microsoft were giving a clue to their design idoelogy when they named it FAT, it;s just another word for bloatedJun 07 23:12
_Hicham_I know fewaJun 07 23:12
yuhongBut Vista was bloated compared to XP, and so often people buy new computers to upgrade.Jun 07 23:12
twitter->  "Nearly from the start, the system was able to, and did, maintain itself," wrote Thompson and Ritchie in the CACM article. "Since all source programs were always available and easily modified online, we were willing to revise and rewrite the system and its software when new ideas were invented, discovered, or suggested by others."   Korn, an AT&T Fellow today, worked as a programmer at Bell Labs in the 1970s. "One of the hallmaJun 07 23:12
fewa_Hicham_, the filesystems were created by thee user to but their files, the copyright, if there is any, lies with that userJun 07 23:12
yuhongBTW, what was actually patented by MS, as I remember, was the FAT LFN extensions.Jun 07 23:12
twitterThat is the world the Bill Gates and AAT tried to close up and control.Jun 07 23:12
yuhongAllowing long file names on FAT.Jun 07 23:12
fewa_Hicham_, as computers cannot create copyrighted works, only humans can create copyrighted worksJun 07 23:12
DaemonFCVista just needs a lot of RAM, that's where you have a problem, is when you try to be cheap and slap it on a system without enough RAMJun 07 23:13
DaemonFCRAM is $8 per gigJun 07 23:13
twittertheir success in doing so is temporaryJun 07 23:13
DaemonFCjust bubuy $24 of RAM and Vista will work fineJun 07 23:13
DaemonFC*buyJun 07 23:13
yuhongYep, if you are talking about putting Vista on old computers, yes RAM is crucial and important.Jun 07 23:13
_Hicham_why, really cheapJun 07 23:13
_Hicham_send me some RAMJun 07 23:14
DaemonFCthe "OMG! It wants MORE RAM!!!!" was a defense in 1998 when RAM was more like $100 per 64 megsJun 07 23:14
ThistleWebbaaaJun 07 23:14
DaemonFC:)Jun 07 23:14
yuhongI personally run Vista on a Core 2 Duo laptop with 1.5 GB of RAM.Jun 07 23:14
fewathen will you send me the ram i need to run the latest M$ POS DaemonFC?Jun 07 23:14
DaemonFCI've got 4 gigs, I didn't really need it as Vista or Linux will run fine with 2Jun 07 23:14
fewayuhong, why do we care?Jun 07 23:14
DaemonFCbut it's just too damn cheapJun 07 23:14
yuhongAnd as long as I don't have too many open it runs well.Jun 07 23:14
_Hicham_yuhong : what for?Jun 07 23:15
DaemonFCso why not?Jun 07 23:15
_Hicham_games?Jun 07 23:15
yuhongYep, RAM is cheap.Jun 07 23:15
DaemonFCI'd rather just throw in a couple more gigs and not worry about what I happen to want to have runningJun 07 23:15
DaemonFC:)Jun 07 23:15
yuhongFor surfing the web and this apps.Jun 07 23:15
yuhongFor surfing the web and this app.Jun 07 23:16
fewayuhong, save yourself some money and buy a netbook thenJun 07 23:16
DaemonFCWhere people seem to be having problems are with 5-6 year old systems that were designed around XP and max out at like a gig of RAMJun 07 23:16
fewalight, better battery life, SSD so it doesnt breakJun 07 23:16
DaemonFCand yeah, running Vista would pose a problemJun 07 23:16
_Hicham_a big problemJun 07 23:17
_Hicham_Vista is not great for XP gamesJun 07 23:17
DaemonFCI ran the beta of Vista on an older system with a gig of RAM, it ran but not very wellJun 07 23:17
twittermost of the rest of that Computer World article is rot that neglects GNU and calls Linux a Minux clone.Jun 07 23:17
yuhongVista's minimum was 512 MB of RAM and I bought this Vista laptop with 1 GB.Jun 07 23:17
DaemonFCI ended up sticking Linux on it and giving it to my mom and brotherJun 07 23:17
DaemonFCafter putting in another gigJun 07 23:17
DaemonFCMandriva runs very well indeed on 2 gigsJun 07 23:17
fewa_Hicham_, vista is a horrible OS for XP games, the sound system is slow, the graphics cards have problems, it wastes ramJun 07 23:18
DaemonFCGNOME and KDE have both swelled up to a size that would make Windows XP blush thoughJun 07 23:18
yuhongYep, I know. Ken Brown was paid by MS to say that Linux contains Minix code.Jun 07 23:18
DaemonFC1 gig is pretty much where you need to be to consider either one of them and expect decent performanceJun 07 23:18
fewabut GNOME and KDE actually _do_ thingsJun 07 23:19
twitterSlashdot covers ARM laptops http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/06/07/1156249/ARM-Powered-Linux-Laptops-Unveiled-At-ComputexJun 07 23:19
DaemonFCI ended up using Fedora with LXDE because GNOME and KDE are too slow on my laptopJun 07 23:19
DaemonFCwith 1 gig of RAMJun 07 23:19
twitter8-16 hour use off 3 cells.Jun 07 23:19
yuhongDaemonFC: I know, it would matter if it wasn't for Vista being even more bloated.Jun 07 23:19
fewatwitter, sweetJun 07 23:19
twitter1 to 2 hundred dollar price tagJun 07 23:19
twittervery sweetJun 07 23:19
twittergame changingJun 07 23:19
fewaDaemonFC, yes LXDE is awesome, and great for low-ram systemsJun 07 23:19
DaemonFCyuhong: Vista Basic is what you'd probably want if you're talking about sticking it on a lower end XP systemJun 07 23:20
fewawould be good for embeded tooJun 07 23:20
DaemonFCI think it installs in 10 gigsJun 07 23:20
yuhongYep.Jun 07 23:20
DaemonFCVista Ultimate takes about 22 gigs hard drive spaceJun 07 23:20
DaemonFCBusiness takes 17Jun 07 23:20
fewaDaemonFC, wut, all vista is the same, same kernel, same executables, same servicesJun 07 23:20
DaemonFCHome Premium takes 12Jun 07 23:20
fewathe market segmentation is BSJun 07 23:20
DaemonFCand XP took like 3Jun 07 23:20
yuhongI talked about Vista's bloat with Larry Osterman from MS and yep he suggested Vista Basic.Jun 07 23:20
DaemonFCVista Basic is a worthy upgrade over XP Home in that you won't be missing anything that XP hadJun 07 23:21
DaemonFCbut that's why it's thereJun 07 23:21
DaemonFCan option for lower end systems that can't handle Aero and stuffJun 07 23:21
yuhongIndeed Vista's kernel is not that bloated and has a lot of new features, such as SRW locks, cancellable sync I/O.Jun 07 23:22
twitterDebian and derivatives work well on ARM.  512 MB is not asking a lot these days.  No need for that second rate Aero junk.Jun 07 23:22
yuhongWhich is handy when you dir \\fdfsfdfds\dssfddfsd and have to ctrl-c.Jun 07 23:22
DaemonFCwell, yes, Vista is certainly an improvement in a lot of ways, but it also introduces far more new problems than it solvesJun 07 23:22
DaemonFCwhich is why people generally don't like itJun 07 23:22
yuhongIn XP you would have to wait until the I/O times out, Vista can cancel the I/O.Jun 07 23:23
fewayuhong, yeah, like the feature that linux has had foreverJun 07 23:23
DaemonFCone thing they inadvertantly did by keeping XP around for so long was to encourage hardware makers to cheap outJun 07 23:23
DaemonFCand ship stuff XP performed well on that Vista does notJun 07 23:24
yuhongYep, MS is still selling XP for netbooks due to Vista's bloatJun 07 23:24
ThistleWeband them pesky customers got addicted to cheaper PCs, famn themJun 07 23:24
ThistleWebdamn*Jun 07 23:24
DaemonFCI don't think Windows 7 for netbooks will go over too well unless they can redefine "netbook" to have at least 2 gigs of RAMJun 07 23:25
DaemonFCand then you've got a laptop anywayJun 07 23:25
twitterKeep thinking, FCJun 07 23:25
fewaThistleWeb, yeah, because cheap PCs do everything they needJun 07 23:25
yuhongWell, RAM takes a small amount of space on a netbook.Jun 07 23:25
fewathey dont want to buy a shitload of bloatJun 07 23:25
_Goblinxp on a netbook is no speed demon either....i should know...i'm having to use one at the momentJun 07 23:25
yuhongand it is not that expensive anymore.Jun 07 23:25
ThistleWebfewa, exactly, which makes shelling out for a new PC when the one they have still works fine is an even harder sellJun 07 23:26
DaemonFCI really need to get Fedora 11 on that laptopJun 07 23:26
DaemonFCI wish they'd just release it alreadyJun 07 23:26
DaemonFC:PJun 07 23:26
yuhongThe Vista Capable incident was due to PC makers wanting to cheap out by using 915 chipsets.Jun 07 23:26
yuhongI personaly would suggest Vista Capable with Aero and without Aero.Jun 07 23:27
twitterHere's a search term that was manipulated in every way http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/182791Jun 07 23:27
DaemonFCyeah, but Aero is really the only user interface improvement Vista hasJun 07 23:27
DaemonFCXP was just fuglyJun 07 23:27
yuhongand the author of VirtualDub hated it.Jun 07 23:28
ThistleWebXP is pretty horrendous visuallyJun 07 23:28
neighborleeyuhong: I wonder if  the MIcrosoft engineer who clearly was miffed about his shinny new laptop not working < so he shelved it>,  had a   915 chipset....Jun 07 23:28
fewaDaemonFC, improvement?Jun 07 23:28
DaemonFCI like compositingJun 07 23:28
neighborleeyuhong: but then,,,the Microsoft sales lady who recommended they fix vista now instead of after to avoid a PR nightmare, might make your point slightly mootJun 07 23:28
twitterI wonder if any of you trolls know this troll http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=216934&cid=17629948Jun 07 23:30
twitterSame kind of stuff I see here these days.Jun 07 23:31
_GoblinDaemonFC there are those silly users (like me) that put visuals behind functionality.  Maybe thats where Microsoft have been going wrong?Jun 07 23:31
DaemonFCwell, if I'm going to be using the thing for hours a day, the last thing I want it to be is hard on the eyesJun 07 23:31
DaemonFCthe Ubuntu Studio theme is probably my favorite user interface everJun 07 23:32
neighborleeschestowitz: " package could not be removed, as other packages depend on it " <  trying to get rid of mono-core [was just doing experiment ] in kpackageKIT , and got that..prob. some sillly packagekit error, but then interesting nonetheless,,,and btw in FC11 RC, just days away from releaseJun 07 23:32
DaemonFC_Hicham_: You figure I could get Sound Juicer to act as a front end to Nero AAC for Linux?Jun 07 23:33
_GoblinDaemonFC: If David Braben had the same idea we never would have seen frontier.Jun 07 23:33
_Hicham_Really?Jun 07 23:33
MinceRgnJun 07 23:33
_Goblinthe A500 would never have taken off.Jun 07 23:33
_GoblingnJun 07 23:33
twitterIt was nice of that silly troll to give me the honor of being one of the first people to talk about Vista failure, but it was not true.  Everyone was talking about Vista failure from the start.Jun 07 23:33
_Hicham_gn MinceRJun 07 23:33
_Hicham_does it use the libraries provided by Nero?Jun 07 23:33
DaemonFCwell, it seems to just pass arguments to an encoderJun 07 23:34
DaemonFCso I suppose it could work with any front end that can pass arguments to itJun 07 23:34
DaemonFCat least thats how NeroAACEncoder.exe worksJun 07 23:34
DaemonFCI have FooBar 2000 as a GUI frontend to Nero AACJun 07 23:35
_Hicham_is it available in Linux?Jun 07 23:35
_Hicham_I mean the encoder?Jun 07 23:35
DaemonFCit has some kind of Linux binariesJun 07 23:35
DaemonFCthe package Nero offers that isJun 07 23:35
DaemonFChttp://www.audiocoding.com/nero_aacenc.htmlJun 07 23:35
yuhongBTW, on Intel and open source, what do you think is happeningJun 07 23:35
yuhongBTW, on Intel and open source, what do you think is happening?Jun 07 23:35
_Hicham_I worked with Nero on Ubuntu 7.10Jun 07 23:36
yuhongDo you think it is MS or Intel's fault?Jun 07 23:36
DaemonFCthis isn't the full suiteJun 07 23:36
DaemonFCit's a freeware AAC encoderJun 07 23:36
_Hicham_but was unsussessfulJun 07 23:36
DaemonFCand it works extremely wellJun 07 23:36
_Hicham_*unsuccessfulJun 07 23:36
yuhongMS tried to bully Intel several times for them to stop supporting open source and failed.Jun 07 23:36
schestowitzmib_qj04jo: RMS beats everyone at the SAT. 1600.Jun 07 23:37
DaemonFCI don't know if the encoder reads FLAC or if Foobar 2000 is decompressing FLAC to WAV then feeding that to the encoderJun 07 23:37
twitter Credit Suisse predicts Bing's failure http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/business/Microsoft39s-failure-to-secure-Yahoo.5341862.jpJun 07 23:37
DaemonFCyesJun 07 23:37
DaemonFCbut did they predict their own failure?Jun 07 23:37
yuhongI was going to mention that in response to MS's attempt to limit ACPI to Windows but better late than never.Jun 07 23:38
twitter"  claims Microsoft cannot survive in the global search on a standalone basis, despite launching a £61m  advertising campaign "Jun 07 23:39
yuhongMS also tried to get Intel to stop supporting open source and failed.Jun 07 23:39
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DaemonFCNero's AAC encoder is far better than the open source one, FAACJun 07 23:39
yuhongDell too.Jun 07 23:39
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yuhongEvidence is on BN.Jun 07 23:39
_Hicham_problem with Nero isJun 07 23:40
DaemonFCyou'll find that out either by simple comparison or when a player using the ISO decoder can't decode the FAAC encoded fileJun 07 23:40
_Hicham_they offer generic packagesJun 07 23:40
twitter" Winslow expects Microsoft's internet search business "to drive large operating losses for the foreseeable future" in its online services business  division, as it suffers a relatively low and declining market share in search advertising."Jun 07 23:40
yuhongI am in high school and have several SAT study books.Jun 07 23:40
DaemonFCWinamp seems to cover up FAACs various fuck ups well enough to where if all you ever use to play them back is Winamp, you'll never know you have defective filesJun 07 23:41
DaemonFC(Winamp does NOT use FAAC)Jun 07 23:41
DaemonFCand that's probably whyJun 07 23:41
fewaI got 1570Jun 07 23:41
DaemonFCNero also seems to have better variable bitrate arguments than FAACJun 07 23:42
DaemonFCFAAC has a 0-500 scale and no obvious explanation where that leaves youJun 07 23:42
DaemonFCNero has 0.0-10 and at every point it gives you an estimate of how the file size compared to Constant BitrateJun 07 23:43
_Hicham_FLOSS is not interested in AACJun 07 23:43
DaemonFCtoo badJun 07 23:43
yuhongI wonder if Linux developers began working on ACPI support when Linux 2.2 development began in 1996 so it would be ready by the time it was released in 1999, would it be any better?Jun 07 23:44
DaemonFCif they want to be incompatible with what people use, they'll have the same success as MicrosoftJun 07 23:44
_Hicham_it is not thatJun 07 23:44
_Hicham_we need open source software to be able to work on itJun 07 23:44
DaemonFCLame actually makes a damned good MP3 player, so what is their hang up with AAC?Jun 07 23:44
_Hicham_the licensing thing stops a lot of people from contributingJun 07 23:44
DaemonFCerrrJun 07 23:45
DaemonFCMP3 encoderJun 07 23:45
DaemonFCratherJun 07 23:45
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DaemonFCI don't really see how someone like Richard Stallman could say that C# should be implemented but that you shouldn't use AAC filesJun 07 23:45
DaemonFChe said C# should be implemented but not depended onJun 07 23:46
_Hicham_licensingJun 07 23:46
DaemonFCin an essay over dotGNUJun 07 23:46
DaemonFCwhat makes FAAC different than dotGNU?Jun 07 23:46
_Hicham_as a proof of conceptJun 07 23:46
yuhongI mean, coincidentally Linux 2.0 was released around the time of NT 4, and 2000 was released about a year after 2.2 was released.Jun 07 23:46
DaemonFCall not having a FOSS encoder will do is make people stay on Windows or MacJun 07 23:46
yuhongYet 2.2 lagged 2000 in a lot ways.Jun 07 23:46
DaemonFCwhich can encode for theor portableJun 07 23:46
_Hicham_C# is a languageJun 07 23:46
yuhongYet 2.2 lagged 2000 in a lots of ways.Jun 07 23:46
yuhongLinux 2.2 lacked the ACPI support that 2000 had.Jun 07 23:47
yuhongOn ACPI, it is too late, IMO, you just have to live with it now.Jun 07 23:47
DaemonFCI think his point was it's better to have an easy way to transition to FOSS than to just bury heads in the sand and pretend like those proprietary standards aren't needed by anyone for anythingJun 07 23:47
DaemonFCand I think for once, I agree with himJun 07 23:48
_Hicham_C# is not an easy transitionJun 07 23:48
_Hicham_it will failJun 07 23:48
_Hicham_just like gcjJun 07 23:48
_Hicham_and gijJun 07 23:48
DaemonFCAAC is not going to fail, and by refusing to properly support it with a FOSS encoder, it makes Linux much less attractive when people do have and use portable playersJun 07 23:49
_Hicham_noJun 07 23:50
_Hicham_some audio players support OggJun 07 23:50
DaemonFCsomeJun 07 23:50
DaemonFCbut by and large they don'tJun 07 23:50
DaemonFCand some do and don't even advertise itJun 07 23:50
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DaemonFCbecause they don't consider it a selling pointJun 07 23:50
fewaDaemonFC, i have not had one that does support itJun 07 23:50
DaemonFCor because the chipset they bought supports it but they don't careJun 07 23:51
fewaand its not a selling pointJun 07 23:51
fewanoone gives a shitJun 07 23:51
DaemonFCwhether it plays Vorbis?Jun 07 23:51
_Hicham_I know that it is not a selling pointJun 07 23:51
DaemonFCit would be nice, and there's no reason for them not toJun 07 23:51
DaemonFCno licensing fees are requiredJun 07 23:51
_Hicham_for vendors yesJun 07 23:51
_Hicham_but everything is windows relatedJun 07 23:51
_Hicham_just like why do they use fat32?Jun 07 23:52
_Hicham_market lock-inJun 07 23:52
_Hicham_simpleJun 07 23:52
fewa_Hicham_, no aac is very prevelent, and codecs are importantJun 07 23:52
DaemonFCand why you need to use libmtp to even talk to the player on LinuxJun 07 23:52
DaemonFCpreceiselyJun 07 23:52
fewamuch more important that wma B$Jun 07 23:52
DaemonFCyou can encode to WMA on LinuxJun 07 23:52
DaemonFCthrough FFMPEGJun 07 23:52
DaemonFC:)Jun 07 23:52
DaemonFCheheJun 07 23:52
fewaim just saying that most people don't care about certain formatsJun 07 23:52
DaemonFCat the end of the day, the user should never even have to be aware of what format they useJun 07 23:53
DaemonFCbut that's an ideal, not where we're atJun 07 23:53
_Hicham_u can do anything from LinuxJun 07 23:54
_Hicham_but ethically, it is not correct to do some thingsJun 07 23:54
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fewa_Hicham_, absolutelyJun 07 23:54
yuhongOn WMA and WMP, I actually once mentioned that Vista's Sound Recorder can only record to WMA, unless you are using the N edition of Vista without WMP, then you can only record to WAV.Jun 07 23:55
yuhongAnd I thanked EU for it.Jun 07 23:55
fewalike RMS says, if every user was given a free platform today, that platform would not remain free unless people understand what freedom meanJun 07 23:55
_Hicham_IE, WMP, and Windows Movie Maker are bad tacticsJun 07 23:55
_Hicham_this integration thing locks the marketJun 07 23:56
fewayuhong, WAV is way superior, should be like the unix philosophy, where things only do twhat they ned to, encoding is another fnctionJun 07 23:56
_Hicham_we are having now the same issue on gnomeJun 07 23:56
_Hicham_tighter integration makes programming easierJun 07 23:57
yuhongI am thinking of opening Vista's Sound Recorder up in WinDbg or IDA.Jun 07 23:57
_Hicham_what for?Jun 07 23:57
fewaie encode to WAV then pipe to a encoderJun 07 23:57
DaemonFChmmmmJun 07 23:58
DaemonFCShell Script to invoke FFMPEG and convert files to WMAJun 07 23:58
DaemonFCPlus! For UbuntuJun 07 23:58
DaemonFClmaoJun 07 23:58
fewathats the unix way, GUIs can make this transparent, but tools need to be modular, and do one thing and do it wellJun 07 23:59

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