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| DaemonMDV | trying out Skype | Jun 14 00:04 |
|---|---|---|
| DaemonMDV | their Linux client is actually better than the Windows version | Jun 14 00:04 |
| _Mutex_ | considering the person who developed most of teh VOIP software was a Linux developer would explain why | Jun 14 00:05 |
| _Mutex_ | and a crazy smart guy too. | Jun 14 00:06 |
| schestowitz | "Therefore, it is not surprising that cigarette smoking is one of the biggest risk factors for developing pancreatic cancer." http://pathology.jhu.edu/pancreas/BasicRisk.php | Jun 14 00:07 |
| schestowitz | That's new to me.. | Jun 14 00:07 |
| schestowitz | So bill hicks dies from smoking directly? | Jun 14 00:07 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, have not heard of that one before , not surprising thought | Jun 14 00:08 |
| maxstirner | possibly, its always hard/impossible to say with these things | Jun 14 00:08 |
| maxstirner | i had heard of that link actually | Jun 14 00:08 |
| ThistleWeb | the Windows Skype client has a lot more features, but it was built primarily for Windows, where most users are so it hardly surprises me | Jun 14 00:08 |
| schestowitz | I guess we have more then one death from smoking in our family then | Jun 14 00:08 |
| schestowitz | Thank bernays for "teaching women how to smoke" | Jun 14 00:09 |
| maxstirner | sorry to hear.. do consider that its always about probabilities, i think it cannot be attributed purely to a single factor | Jun 14 00:09 |
| schestowitz | yes, of course | Jun 14 00:09 |
| maxstirner | apart from asbestos i guess ;) | Jun 14 00:09 |
| _Mutex_ | my old school budy Craig Southeren wrote most of the code for windows and Linux VOIP, its the same core, but he's a Linux guy not a MS guy. | Jun 14 00:09 |
| schestowitz | Many things these day emit radiation too | Jun 14 00:09 |
| _Mutex_ | everything emits it to a degree, everything has a half life, graphits is one of the worst house hold items that radiat | Jun 14 00:10 |
| _Mutex_ | e | Jun 14 00:10 |
| schestowitz | Yes, sure | Jun 14 00:10 |
| schestowitz | But some things more than others | Jun 14 00:11 |
| schestowitz | Those who live next to the hidden cellphone antennas suffer the most | Jun 14 00:11 |
| schestowitz | JoinTheExperiment{Tm} | Jun 14 00:11 |
| maxstirner | i picked up an interview with a woman who does preventive cancer science, theres only one department somewhere in california, she built her office without carcinogenics and she said its near impossible | Jun 14 00:11 |
| schestowitz | A gym I used to go to had such an antenna intstalled in the roof | Jun 14 00:11 |
| schestowitz | I no longer go there. | Jun 14 00:11 |
| _Mutex_ | for sure, you dont want to play inside a smoke detector or a radium watch face either | Jun 14 00:12 |
| maxstirner | most plastics arent tested in any way, rather htey are just presumed safe until you get an asbestos-style cluster, too obvious to ignore | Jun 14 00:12 |
| _Mutex_ | having had cancer (and an agressive one) I can attest to how bad it is. | Jun 14 00:12 |
| _Mutex_ | Roy you may know of SCC ? | Jun 14 00:12 |
| schestowitz | SCC? | Jun 14 00:12 |
| _Mutex_ | squiema cell carcinoma ? | Jun 14 00:12 |
| schestowitz | New to me.. | Jun 14 00:12 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh ok, | Jun 14 00:12 |
| _Mutex_ | form of skin cancer | Jun 14 00:13 |
| _Mutex_ | squamous | Jun 14 00:14 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Article:"Pirate Bay – Anti-piracy campaign?" http://bit.ly/yhb5x #tpb #piratebay | Jun 14 00:15 | |
| maxstirner | ok i'm off, all the best | Jun 14 00:18 |
| *maxstirner (n=user@xdsl-87-78-132-176.netcologne.de) has left #boycottnovell | Jun 14 00:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Human anatomy remains mystery to MPs http://notnews.today.com/?p=520 | Jun 14 00:20 | |
| ThistleWeb | gotta love them copyright holders, demanding people respect their IP, while at the same time taking the TPB page design for their own site | Jun 14 00:25 |
| ThistleWeb | they do know how to avoid the hypocrisy label | Jun 14 00:26 |
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| _Goblin | the TPB was always free to use and abuse according to the site.... | Jun 14 00:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] How to move from MS Money to GnuCash: http://is.gd/11akW and get proper double-entry into the bargain: http://is.gd/11amr | Jun 14 00:30 | |
| _Goblin | *logo | Jun 14 00:31 |
| ThistleWeb | I notice the t-shirts page is a copy of TPB with stuff changed | Jun 14 00:31 |
| ThistleWeb | page layout | Jun 14 00:31 |
| ThistleWeb | they've done an HTTP copy, changed a few images to their own and used that | Jun 14 00:32 |
| _Goblin | yeah, Mr Andersons campaign seems to be going down the route of Indiana Greggs and IMO it will end in tears because its badly thought ot. | Jun 14 00:32 |
| ThistleWeb | we have been watching you for a long time now Mr Anderson | Jun 14 00:32 |
| ThistleWeb | or should we call you Neo | Jun 14 00:32 |
| _Goblin | Who would a f*** the pirate bay t-shirt appeal to? | Jun 14 00:33 |
| _Goblin | I don't think a record label would want to associate... | Jun 14 00:33 |
| _Goblin | look what happened to Metallica... | Jun 14 00:33 |
| ThistleWeb | unfortunatly, all the people who are on their side and care bout stuff like that, wear suits | Jun 14 00:33 |
| ThistleWeb | or have their own stage costumes | Jun 14 00:33 |
| _Goblin | what interests me more about Mr Anderson is him claim about piracy = loss of jobs and kids taken out of schools.... | Jun 14 00:34 |
| _Goblin | that must mean he stands against FOSS aswell? | Jun 14 00:34 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah I read that | Jun 14 00:34 |
| _Goblin | because surely people choosing FOSS over proprietary would have the same effect? | Jun 14 00:34 |
| _Goblin | Ive sent him an email, documented on my blog in the article. | Jun 14 00:35 |
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| _Goblin | and also challenged him with using vulgarity to promote a cause. | Jun 14 00:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard nice cheeks | Jun 14 00:35 | |
| DaemonMDV | can GNUCash import Microsoft Money files? | Jun 14 00:35 |
| ThistleWeb | to me, it's one of a number of astroturfing PR attempts by the entertainment industry to try and play the sympathy card, poor rich boardroom members who can't rape their customers to the same degree | Jun 14 00:36 |
| _Mutex_ | it would be if FOSS did not employ people, but it does | Jun 14 00:36 |
| _Goblin | true, but not to the extent of proprietary | Jun 14 00:36 |
| _Mutex_ | thats true, | Jun 14 00:37 |
| _Goblin | and if you consider the amount of business dependent on Windows failing, a FOSS alternative would be harmful to them too. | Jun 14 00:37 |
| ThistleWeb | one response is the continued growth of CC as a licencing model | Jun 14 00:37 |
| _Mutex_ | CC ? | Jun 14 00:38 |
| DaemonMDV | Creative Commons still has nothing good licensed under it | Jun 14 00:38 |
| ThistleWeb | creative commons | Jun 14 00:38 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh ok, | Jun 14 00:38 |
| DaemonMDV | or if it does it's a hook to get you to buy stuff | Jun 14 00:38 |
| _Goblin | it does... | Jun 14 00:38 |
| _Goblin | let me cite one example: | Jun 14 00:38 |
| ThistleWeb | "good" is subjective | Jun 14 00:38 |
| ThistleWeb | and personal | Jun 14 00:38 |
| ThistleWeb | Mircosoft will tell you Windows is "good" | Jun 14 00:39 |
| _Goblin | Severed Fifth and their album - Denied by Reign | Jun 14 00:39 |
| ThistleWeb | to them, it is | Jun 14 00:39 |
| _Mutex_ | which makes evil just as subjective, and personal. | Jun 14 00:40 |
| _Mutex_ | whey do "they" say, "right and wrong only depends on what side your on" | Jun 14 00:41 |
| _Mutex_ | which is closely related to "the winning side gets to make up the rules", (just ask GW Bush). :) | Jun 14 00:43 |
| ThistleWeb | evil has always been subjective | Jun 14 00:45 |
| _Mutex_ | sure has | Jun 14 00:45 |
| ThistleWeb | people and companies have never been evil, although some of their acts are | Jun 14 00:45 |
| _Mutex_ | good and evil are in the eye of the beholder | Jun 14 00:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz "This is another fine mess you've gotten us into!" | Jun 14 00:45 | |
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| _Mutex_ | there have certainly been people that MOST consider to be evil, but not that many, they were bad though | Jun 14 00:46 |
| DaemonMDV | Windows is good from the sense that it's a common development platform | Jun 14 00:47 |
| DaemonMDV | but that's just a side effect | Jun 14 00:47 |
| _Mutex_ | can some companies, like was it exxon who killed all those people on Bopal, or enron turning off power to make more money, IBM selling computers to the Nazi's to collate and count the jews is a bit iffy | Jun 14 00:47 |
| DaemonMDV | that would be Union Carbide | Jun 14 00:48 |
| DaemonMDV | now Dow Chemical | Jun 14 00:48 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, thanks :) | Jun 14 00:48 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh ok | Jun 14 00:48 |
| DaemonMDV | IBM had a business branch in Germany dating back before the war | Jun 14 00:49 |
| DaemonMDV | the Nazis seized it | Jun 14 00:49 |
| schestowitz | gn | Jun 14 00:49 |
| DaemonMDV | it was not really part of IBM | Jun 14 00:49 |
| DaemonMDV | at that point | Jun 14 00:49 |
| DaemonMDV | it was "Give us what we want or YOU get a bullet in the back of the head" | Jun 14 00:49 |
| _Mutex_ | they also had offices in the US for it, according to history, and provided consultants ! | Jun 14 00:49 |
| DaemonMDV | the Nazis seized the business, there's nothing that IBM in the US could do about that | Jun 14 00:50 |
| DaemonMDV | it's not like they were profiteering off it | Jun 14 00:50 |
| DaemonMDV | or willing accomplices | Jun 14 00:50 |
| DaemonMDV | at the point that the Nazis seized it, it was no longer part of IBM | Jun 14 00:51 |
| ThistleWeb | a lot of companies allied with the Nazis before they reaaly showed their true colours | Jun 14 00:52 |
| ThistleWeb | at the start they capitvated a broken Germany with a new future | Jun 14 00:52 |
| DaemonMDV | the Nazis were always going to be bad news, anyone that allied with them at any point knew what they would do | Jun 14 00:52 |
| ThistleWeb | for a few years they were held up as a great thing | Jun 14 00:52 |
| ThistleWeb | until the nasty underside started to show | Jun 14 00:52 |
| ThistleWeb | businesses are only ever interested in profits | Jun 14 00:53 |
| DaemonMDV | unfortunately businesses and governments shake hands with some nasty people | Jun 14 00:53 |
| DaemonMDV | this British National Party sounds a lot like Norsefire | Jun 14 00:53 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 00:53 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsefire | Jun 14 00:54 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party | Jun 14 00:55 |
| DaemonMDV | Wikipedia needs updated | Jun 14 00:56 |
| DaemonMDV | two of the British Nazis are in fact elected to their Parliament now | Jun 14 00:56 |
| ThistleWeb | even the term "british" in the BNP case is a bit of a stretch, they are an English party, standing in English constituencies, campaigning for English rule | Jun 14 00:57 |
| DaemonMDV | so what the hell is their deal? | Jun 14 00:58 |
| DaemonMDV | They criticize America over there cause of Bush, they rejoice that we throw his goons out | Jun 14 00:58 |
| ThistleWeb | when you're a minority anyway, the least thing you want to do is paint yourself as an even smaller minority | Jun 14 00:58 |
| _Mutex_ | the pope was in the nazi youth group ! | Jun 14 00:58 |
| DaemonMDV | and immediately elect their own fascists? | Jun 14 00:59 |
| _Mutex_ | "The word has gotten out and a lot of people still alive are supplying information that they didn't have the context to understand before," said Robert Wolfe, an expert on Nazi records and former chief of captured German government documents for the U.S. National Archives. | Jun 14 00:59 |
| _Mutex_ | "This is the proof that IBM enabled the Holocaust. The connection to New York is now proven," Wolfe, a former U.S. infantry officer who ran de-Nazification programs during the U.S. occupation of postwar Germany, said in a phone interview. | Jun 14 00:59 |
| ThistleWeb | lets' face it, the Church have a very revisionist veiw of the world | Jun 14 00:59 |
| DaemonMDV | there's going to be another holocaust if the UK doesn't get their shit together | Jun 14 01:00 |
| _Mutex_ | yes they do. | Jun 14 01:00 |
| ThistleWeb | as well as a very "let's stick our heads in the sand" pro-active approach to complaints like sexual abuse of kids by preists | Jun 14 01:00 |
| ThistleWeb | I wonder if the biggest worldwide paedophile network is in fact the church | Jun 14 01:00 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, cant agree more | Jun 14 01:00 |
| DaemonMDV | the priests have nothing to worry about | Jun 14 01:00 |
| DaemonMDV | the church will buy off the parents to shut up about it | Jun 14 01:01 |
| DaemonMDV | and move the priest someplace else | Jun 14 01:01 |
| DaemonMDV | so he can molest more kids | Jun 14 01:01 |
| ThistleWeb | or threaten them with ex-communicate thise who speak out | Jun 14 01:01 |
| DaemonMDV | there's no brand of religion that I agree with | Jun 14 01:01 |
| DaemonMDV | but there's no religion more insane than Islam or Christianity | Jun 14 01:02 |
| DaemonMDV | they're both tied at first place on that count | Jun 14 01:02 |
| ThistleWeb | with all of that, I always laugh when the Church try to lobby government on "morality" uissues | Jun 14 01:02 |
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| DaemonMDV | the Christians always say the Satanists are murdering people in bizarre rituals, yet there are few documented cases of anything like that actually happening | Jun 14 01:03 |
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| DaemonMDV | but the Christians can go murder as many as they want to | Jun 14 01:03 |
| DaemonMDV | in broad daylight | Jun 14 01:03 |
| DaemonMDV | and justify themselves | Jun 14 01:03 |
| _Mutex_ | its the Christians who started that with the inquisitions, | Jun 14 01:03 |
| DaemonMDV | Christianity is the scourge of the Western civilization | Jun 14 01:04 |
| DaemonMDV | Islam is the scourge of the East | Jun 14 01:04 |
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| DaemonMDV | there's only like ~1 million Muslims in the US out of at least 305 million people | Jun 14 01:05 |
| DaemonMDV | yet the Christians blame them for everything that goes wrong | Jun 14 01:05 |
| ThistleWeb | every religion that says "there is no other God but me, and anyone who dont believe is to be killed or converted" is a problem | Jun 14 01:05 |
| DaemonMDV | well, that sums up about 8 out of every 10 people you see | Jun 14 01:06 |
| DaemonMDV | though I'm not sure that that many would actually kill for their religion if told to | Jun 14 01:06 |
| DaemonMDV | maybe half the people you see? | Jun 14 01:06 |
| ThistleWeb | people in India convert to Islam because the lower caste system in India has them as the dregs of society, and as Muslims they can at least get a better deal in ordinary life | Jun 14 01:06 |
| DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 14 01:06 |
| DaemonMDV | Islam spreads in US prisons | Jun 14 01:07 |
| DaemonMDV | and in ghettos | Jun 14 01:07 |
| ThistleWeb | Hindu's lose people because they like to discriminate with a caste system | Jun 14 01:07 |
| DaemonMDV | it's always been a religion that appeals to hateful/spiteful people who feel oppressed | Jun 14 01:07 |
| ThistleWeb | when people have nothing in this llife, where the world is against them, it's an easy sell to get them to do what you want in reward for an afterlife of pleasure | Jun 14 01:08 |
| DaemonMDV | I've been approached by Christians, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Muslims, Scientologists, and Wiccans | Jun 14 01:08 |
| ThistleWeb | thats why strong religious beliefs and poverty often go hand in hand | Jun 14 01:08 |
| DaemonMDV | and I told all of them that they're full of shit | Jun 14 01:08 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 01:08 |
| ThistleWeb | now you're bneing stalked by Tom Cruise right? | Jun 14 01:09 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 01:09 |
| DaemonMDV | there was a woman from the Ft Wayne Church of Scientology that wanted to do that "personality test" on me | Jun 14 01:09 |
| DaemonMDV | I know all about what they do | Jun 14 01:09 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm forming my own church | Jun 14 01:10 |
| DaemonMDV | the Church of Ryantology, it's all about me, and give me all your money bitches! | Jun 14 01:10 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 01:10 |
| _Mutex_ | what you have to do if find some gold tables with a language no one can understand, work out what it says, and base your religion on that, but dont forget to lose the gold tables first :) | Jun 14 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | I always find it funny when Preists offer advice on sexual relationships, considering they took a vow never to experience it | Jun 14 01:11 |
| _Mutex_ | some preists | Jun 14 01:12 |
| _Mutex_ | catholic | Jun 14 01:12 |
| ThistleWeb | kids dont count huh? | Jun 14 01:12 |
| _Mutex_ | alter boys for the taking !! | Jun 14 01:12 |
| ThistleWeb | "we have two different body's of Christ here, one for public ceremonies, one for private prayer meetings" | Jun 14 01:13 |
| DaemonMDV | _Mutex_: I had the gold tablets with instructions for all humanity to make me their leader | Jun 14 01:30 |
| DaemonMDV | but the archangel Gabriel ated it | Jun 14 01:30 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 01:30 |
| _Mutex_ | :D | Jun 14 01:30 |
| _Mutex_ | I think you need to form a chior !! | Jun 14 01:31 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey a tabinacle one | Jun 14 01:31 |
| _Mutex_ | Deamons Tabinacle chior | Jun 14 01:32 |
| DaemonMDV | the one thing that Bill Gates said that disgusted me more than everything else put together | Jun 14 01:32 |
| DaemonMDV | was when he said he agreed with prescription drug patents | Jun 14 01:32 |
| DaemonMDV | software is one thing, human lives are another | Jun 14 01:33 |
| DaemonMDV | and he said he thinks that drug companies should be able to charge $300-$400 a bottle for medicine | Jun 14 01:33 |
| MinceR | Dagon Tabernacle Choir? :> | Jun 14 01:33 |
| DaemonMDV | OwnerNBC Universal (27%) | Jun 14 01:34 |
| DaemonMDV | Fox Entertainment Group (27%) | Jun 14 01:34 |
| DaemonMDV | Providence Equity Partners (19%) | Jun 14 01:34 |
| DaemonMDV | The Walt Disney Company (27%) | Jun 14 01:34 |
| DaemonMDV | SloganAn evil plot to destroy the world. Enjoy. | Jun 14 01:34 |
| DaemonMDV | fitting slogan | Jun 14 01:35 |
| _Mutex_ | ITs costs an incredable amount of money to develop, tests, trial, and have approved by the various bodies, mabey if they knew they would not make a return on that investment they would not bother | Jun 14 01:35 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulu | Jun 14 01:35 |
| _Mutex_ | refering to drugs, (the good kind, not the fun kind). | Jun 14 01:35 |
| DaemonMDV | a bottle of AZT (Older AIDS drug) costs 27 cents to make | Jun 14 01:36 |
| DaemonMDV | they want $227 a bottle | Jun 14 01:36 |
| DaemonMDV | you're telling me they're justified? | Jun 14 01:36 |
| DaemonMDV | it costs more to make the bottle than the pills | Jun 14 01:37 |
| _Mutex_ | but how much to develop, test, get FDA approval, double blind trial and so on, thats where the cost is. | Jun 14 01:37 |
| _Mutex_ | and if they cant recoup that expense they wont make it, | Jun 14 01:37 |
| DaemonMDV | 1. It's been out for 23 years | Jun 14 01:37 |
| DaemonMDV | 2. It's not even knew | Jun 14 01:37 |
| DaemonMDV | it WAS a prototype for a failed cancer drug | Jun 14 01:37 |
| DaemonMDV | from the 60s | Jun 14 01:37 |
| DaemonMDV | *new | Jun 14 01:37 |
| _Mutex_ | 23 years its past the patent time now, so its free for use. | Jun 14 01:38 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, this is still a problem | Jun 14 01:38 |
| DaemonMDV | when the drug makers gang up to price fix | Jun 14 01:38 |
| _Mutex_ | patents protect the development for a period of time, to allow the manufacture to recoup and large expense, then it can be a generic | Jun 14 01:38 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't think you follow me | Jun 14 01:39 |
| DaemonMDV | the generic makers price fix | Jun 14 01:39 |
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| _Mutex_ | I think I do, | Jun 14 01:39 |
| DaemonMDV | so there's still very little competition | Jun 14 01:39 |
| _Mutex_ | thats illegal, its called a cartell, and if you can prove that you can sue them, | Jun 14 01:39 |
| DaemonMDV | those drugs cost less to make than a can of soda | Jun 14 01:39 |
| _Mutex_ | cost is in teh development and testing. | Jun 14 01:40 |
| DaemonMDV | but they'll let people die before they give them away or charge a proper amount | Jun 14 01:40 |
| _Mutex_ | and approval | Jun 14 01:40 |
| DaemonMDV | those have been recouped | Jun 14 01:40 |
| _Mutex_ | and liability for the few adverse affects | Jun 14 01:40 |
| DaemonMDV | they have no excuse | Jun 14 01:40 |
| DaemonMDV | it's only the manufacturing cost of 27 cents | Jun 14 01:40 |
| _Mutex_ | Do you how much its costs to develop a drug, and how many dont make it after all the expense ?? alot | Jun 14 01:41 |
| DaemonMDV | they should be tried for criminal actions | Jun 14 01:41 |
| ThistleWeb | drugs take a LONG time to develop, at great expense | Jun 14 01:41 |
| splosion | the mono debate is really heating up now. I'm seeing people blogging on it left right and centre. anyone else following this? | Jun 14 01:41 |
| _Mutex_ | that would help the world, | Jun 14 01:41 |
| DaemonMDV | the willfull murder of every person that died cause they couldn't afford the medicine | Jun 14 01:41 |
| _Mutex_ | years to come Splosion its might be refered to the great FOSS implosion !! (I hope not). | Jun 14 01:42 |
| DaemonMDV | the drug companies are committing the greatest holocaust ever | Jun 14 01:42 |
| splosion | hah | Jun 14 01:42 |
| DaemonMDV | the worst crime agaisnt humanity | Jun 14 01:42 |
| DaemonMDV | the CEOs of these companies should be charged with first degree murder | Jun 14 01:42 |
| DaemonMDV | every time someone dies cause they didn't have access to medicine | Jun 14 01:42 |
| _Mutex_ | You might want to do some research on how AIDS was given to humans, when you find it out you will see that as a crime against humanity. | Jun 14 01:43 |
| DaemonMDV | well, it got into the US from Haitians | Jun 14 01:43 |
| DaemonMDV | in the mid 1950s | Jun 14 01:43 |
| splosion | In the UK, you'd pay about ten dollars (well you'd pay it in pounds but yes) for a three-monthly subscription of AIDS drugs. It's a good system | Jun 14 01:43 |
| _Mutex_ | yes but how did it get onto the haitians do you know ?? (I do). | Jun 14 01:44 |
| DaemonMDV | the first confirmed death post-mortem examination of a 15 year old who died in Missouri in 1959 | Jun 14 01:44 |
| Ng | splosion: that's largely because we have a fixed price for any prescription | Jun 14 01:44 |
| _Mutex_ | same in Aus | Jun 14 01:44 |
| splosion | Ng: yeah. You'd pay the same for a cough remedy | Jun 14 01:44 |
| Ng | the reality of course is that we are all paying for the rest of the cost of the drugs, but it's shared around via taxation :) | Jun 14 01:45 |
| DaemonMDV | I really have to say that I hope anyone who defends those criminals gets heart disease or cancer | Jun 14 01:45 |
| DaemonMDV | and loses their insurance | Jun 14 01:45 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, but how did the HIV virus get introducted to humans ?? (and i do know yes). | Jun 14 01:45 |
| DaemonMDV | green monkey | Jun 14 01:46 |
| DaemonMDV | African tribes having sec with green monkeys | Jun 14 01:46 |
| DaemonMDV | *sex | Jun 14 01:46 |
| _Mutex_ | you dont wish those things on people, (well I dont) and ive had cancer, nearly killed me, so im glad for those drugs regardless of the cost, | Jun 14 01:47 |
| _Mutex_ | No not sex , sex is how it spread between humans its not how it got into the human population. | Jun 14 01:47 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't care | Jun 14 01:47 |
| DaemonMDV | anyone who defends those people deserves to suffer | Jun 14 01:47 |
| DaemonMDV | under the same heavy handed bullshit they defend | Jun 14 01:47 |
| _Mutex_ | thanks,, lets hope you dont get cancer, | Jun 14 01:47 |
| DaemonMDV | if I do, I do | Jun 14 01:48 |
| DaemonMDV | I never said that the people that deserve what they get, get it | Jun 14 01:48 |
| DaemonMDV | that's what religion is for | Jun 14 01:48 |
| DaemonMDV | to make you think these sons of bitches are going to be judged | Jun 14 01:48 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 01:48 |
| DaemonMDV | religion appeals to the part of us that knows what those people do is wrong | Jun 14 01:49 |
| DaemonMDV | and that they'll never be punished in this life | Jun 14 01:49 |
| _Mutex_ | well im not going to argue with you at all about how cancer can be good for anyone and anytime, but each to their own. | Jun 14 01:50 |
| DaemonMDV | it helps suppress the people that are being fucked over | Jun 14 01:50 |
| DaemonMDV | cause they think their suffering will be reqarded | Jun 14 01:50 |
| DaemonMDV | *rewarded | Jun 14 01:50 |
| DaemonMDV | and that the drug company CEOs will burn in hell | Jun 14 01:50 |
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| DaemonMDV | if only it was that simple | Jun 14 01:51 |
| DaemonMDV | corporations spread Christianity because it helps them get away with crimes | Jun 14 01:51 |
| DaemonMDV | governments spread Christianity cause it helps them get away with crimes | Jun 14 01:52 |
| splosion | The Cubans used to buy some of their pharmaceuticals from a Canadian company. That company was bought out by an American one and then due to the embargo trade stopped. The Cubans decided to fabricate the drugs themselves. The American company complained to the US Government, who then went and bombed the factory (they said it was for heroin to justify it). | Jun 14 01:52 |
| DaemonMDV | it's why atheistic totalitarian states usually fail at a higher rate | Jun 14 01:52 |
| DaemonMDV | than religious totalitarian states | Jun 14 01:53 |
| *kentma has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jun 14 01:53 | |
| DaemonMDV | the US government has a vested interest in keeping the Christians around | Jun 14 01:53 |
| _Mutex_ | ive never heard that USA has bombed cuba when ? | Jun 14 01:53 |
| DaemonMDV | else people will become apathetic and "unpatriotic" | Jun 14 01:54 |
| splosion | so you're saying that religion has been used to control people for a very long time? Really? I had no idea! | Jun 14 01:54 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 14 01:54 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, thousands of years | Jun 14 01:54 |
| DaemonMDV | it'll keep people enslaved for thousands more years after I am dead | Jun 14 01:55 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 01:55 |
| splosion | _Mutex_: I can't remember the reference. But yes, they have done some covert stuff in Cuba before. I'll try and find the evidence some time. :) | Jun 14 01:55 |
| _Mutex_ | and when your looking down from heaven and laughing ?? | Jun 14 01:55 |
| _Mutex_ | Was it clint eastwood ? | Jun 14 01:56 |
| _Mutex_ | heartbreak hill ? | Jun 14 01:56 |
| Ng | _Mutex_: DaemonMDV wished cancer and heart disease on other people, what makes you think heaven is going to be his/her destination? ;) | Jun 14 01:56 |
| DaemonMDV | there's no such thing | Jun 14 01:56 |
| DaemonMDV | so fuck if I care | Jun 14 01:56 |
| _Mutex_ | well something starting with H im sure :) | Jun 14 01:56 |
| _Mutex_ | I really liked homers confession to the cathloc priest, "ive mastabated 2 billion times in my live and I have no intension of stoping" | Jun 14 01:57 |
| _Mutex_ | Homer Simpson that is | Jun 14 01:57 |
| _Mutex_ | not the philosphiser | Jun 14 01:58 |
| _Mutex_ | was "bay of pigs" cuba ? | Jun 14 01:58 |
| ThistleWeb | _Mutex_: yes | Jun 14 01:58 |
| _Mutex_ | ok, | Jun 14 01:59 |
| *DaemonMDV has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 14 02:00 | |
| _Mutex_ | see i know things, ... and stuff | Jun 14 02:00 |
| ThistleWeb | Cuba was a vacation spot for the US elite (gangsters / politicians / actors / singers etc) to all hobnob together away from the public news scrutiny before Castro took over and took Cuba's interests back | Jun 14 02:00 |
| neighborlee | as always, its what you do what it that counts | Jun 14 02:00 |
| ThistleWeb | which was a large part of the reason it was suddenly sold as a pariah nation to the US people | Jun 14 02:01 |
| _Mutex_ | Neighborlee it SURE is, (and if only I could spel) :) | Jun 14 02:01 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, not being able to spellis hardly a sinn | Jun 14 02:01 |
| neighborlee | or sin if you'd rather | Jun 14 02:02 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL but did you get sent to the headmaster at school because you could not spell "GIRL" (or is it gerl) | Jun 14 02:02 |
| neighborlee | are you sayng you did..< not here> | Jun 14 02:03 |
| _Mutex_ | yep, | Jun 14 02:03 |
| neighborlee | lovely | Jun 14 02:03 |
| neighborlee | strict- | Jun 14 02:03 |
| _Mutex_ | he just laughed, | Jun 14 02:04 |
| neighborlee | So then you are acquainted with oppression ;0 | Jun 14 02:04 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, I have many acquaintences | Jun 14 02:05 |
| _Mutex_ | 10 years in the military was quite oppressing as well | Jun 14 02:11 |
| _Mutex_ | at least it taught me how to kill people it 20 different ways, (nothing like variety) | Jun 14 02:12 |
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| _Mutex_ | so where is the hot spots for the mono debate ?? | Jun 14 02:14 |
| splosion | Linux Today | Jun 14 02:14 |
| splosion | lots of stuff aggregated there | Jun 14 02:14 |
| _Mutex_ | ahhok, Carla's turf. | Jun 14 02:14 |
| splosion | of course | Jun 14 02:16 |
| splosion | Jo's defence of Mono sparked a lot of it off. But it's been brewing for a while now | Jun 14 02:16 |
| splosion | it's going into debian main and stuff. people complaining, arguing, etc | Jun 14 02:18 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, its all very messy, I dont think it needs to be. but it is what it is I guess. | Jun 14 02:19 |
| splosion | aye | Jun 14 02:19 |
| neighborlee | http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2009061102135OSCY < it could change at anytime, but so far no takers | Jun 14 02:32 |
| neighborlee | "" Write it up, plain text with simple HTML tags for paragraph and line breaks, and email it to me at cschroder@internet.com and I will publish it as soon as I receive it. "" | Jun 14 02:33 |
| splosion | neighborlee: Jo Shields already responded to that. Carla posted it up | Jun 14 02:33 |
| neighborlee | I think that a calm presentation of why Mono is desirable, why it is not a threat, and why it should be included in Ubuntu by default would be beneficial. < on this | Jun 14 02:33 |
| neighborlee | splosion, odd its not linked there | Jun 14 02:34 |
| neighborlee | ok just not updated | Jun 14 02:34 |
| splosion | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-12-010-35-OS-CY-DV << here | Jun 14 02:34 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jun 14 02:35 |
| neighborlee | doesn't speakfor ubuntu..absurd | Jun 14 02:35 |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jun 14 02:35 | |
| neighborlee | and such a shame. | Jun 14 02:35 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 02:35 |
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| DaemonXP | "Oh yes, but when the Ubuntu Beta train breaks down, the pirates don't EAT the tourists | Jun 14 02:38 |
| DaemonXP | :P | Jun 14 02:38 |
| neighborlee | I remember seeing him on debian ML posts..and rejected due to the RISK.... | Jun 14 02:38 |
| *DaemonXP is downloading a daily build of Karmic Koala :P | Jun 14 02:38 | |
| *_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal") | Jun 14 02:39 | |
| neighborlee | freedom is a wonderful thing ;) | Jun 14 02:39 |
| DaemonXP | daily builds can be evil, wicked things | Jun 14 02:39 |
| DaemonXP | sometimes it's not even in an installable state | Jun 14 02:39 |
| neighborlee | You see someone that is serious about debate, never incluces such sillyness such as , im well aware of threats and personal attacks yadda..absolute nonsense | Jun 14 02:40 |
| _Mutex_ | My major issue with this whole thing is that people in the free software community are (quite ignorantly) spreading FUD against Mono. The loudest of them come from the cult of Roy Schestowitz, who is single-handedly the largest generator of FUD I've seen in a long time. | Jun 14 02:41 |
| neighborlee | thats not debate its deliberately trying to inflame | Jun 14 02:41 |
| _Mutex_ | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-11-021-35-OS-CY-0001 | Jun 14 02:41 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, go spread your hate somewhere else | Jun 14 02:41 |
| _Mutex_ | not my words please | Jun 14 02:41 |
| _Mutex_ | follow the link | Jun 14 02:41 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, yes, it is hate | Jun 14 02:41 |
| neighborlee | anytime you say 'ignorant' , and 'fud' , your not better than Jo, and you know it. | Jun 14 02:42 |
| _Mutex_ | yes it is, so im glad its not from me | Jun 14 02:42 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, welcome to the underhanded nature of life..I hope you enjoy your stay ;)( | Jun 14 02:42 |
| _Mutex_ | except I did not say it, I posted that here to keep those here informed about that is being said about BN PLEASE | Jun 14 02:42 |
| splosion | haha | Jun 14 02:42 |
| DaemonXP | apaprently GRUB 2 is the default for Ubuntu 9.10 | Jun 14 02:42 |
| DaemonXP | that's the biggest thing that's landed so far | Jun 14 02:43 |
| _Mutex_ | all you can keep uninformed and live in ignorant bliss its up to you | Jun 14 02:43 |
| splosion | I heard a few people were looking into making a C# implementation without Mono at all. Somehow get it working with gcc. That might be a good route to go down | Jun 14 02:43 |
| fewa | DaemonXP, woah | Jun 14 02:43 |
| fewa | really ? | Jun 14 02:43 |
| DaemonXP | from what I can gather | Jun 14 02:43 |
| fewa | link? | Jun 14 02:43 |
| DaemonXP | Ubuntu development branch is fun | Jun 14 02:43 |
| DaemonXP | sometimes you get new stuf to play with | Jun 14 02:44 |
| splosion | grub 2? is it pretty? prettier than LILO? | Jun 14 02:44 |
| DaemonXP | sometimes it's a borked system | Jun 14 02:44 |
| DaemonXP | http://news.softpedia.com/news/GRUB-2-The-New-Boot-Loader-in-Ubuntu-9-10-113671.shtml | Jun 14 02:44 |
| _Mutex_ | its GPL you can do whatever you damn well like with it, according to the GPL, but as long as you moditiy if yyou to provide your mods, as per the GPL, | Jun 14 02:44 |
| _Mutex_ | Its YOUR freedom. | Jun 14 02:44 |
| DaemonXP | when on the development branch, remember to use aptitude safe-upgrade for your package upgrades | Jun 14 02:44 |
| DaemonXP | or else you might get broken dependencies | Jun 14 02:45 |
| DaemonXP | :) | Jun 14 02:45 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, the military huh ,,dont they teach honor and integrity ?<hmmm> | Jun 14 02:45 |
| _Mutex_ | No that just comes naturally :) | Jun 14 02:45 |
| DaemonXP | safe-upgrade won't pull in anything that depends on something that's not in the repository yet | Jun 14 02:45 |
| _Mutex_ | not forgetting truth , justice and the Australian way. | Jun 14 02:45 |
| _Mutex_ | mate | Jun 14 02:45 |
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| DaemonXP | internet censorship, ignorant rednecks, and John Howard | Jun 14 02:46 |
| DaemonXP | what could possibly go wrong? | Jun 14 02:46 |
| _Mutex_ | we dont have rednecks here in Aus | Jun 14 02:46 |
| _Mutex_ | or Johnie as PM, we kicked him awile ago, fyi | Jun 14 02:47 |
| fewa | that will be the first, even fedora wont do that | Jun 14 02:47 |
| _Mutex_ | or internet censorship (yet). | Jun 14 02:47 |
| fewa | could be a step forward or a screwup | Jun 14 02:48 |
| DaemonXP | how long is Ubuntu going to keep staying on Wine 1.01? | Jun 14 02:48 |
| DaemonXP | shit | Jun 14 02:48 |
| fewa | thats not ubuntu's goal | Jun 14 02:49 |
| DaemonXP | yeah, you need to go grab it from Wine HQ | Jun 14 02:49 |
| fewa | there is a easy repo | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | this bird's eye view thing in bing maps is really cool | Jun 14 02:50 |
| fewa | wine 1.0 was a stable release | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | not as useful as google street thing | Jun 14 02:50 |
| fewa | thats why people stay with it | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | but cool | Jun 14 02:50 |
| DaemonXP | they're getting rid of HAL | Jun 14 02:50 |
| DaemonXP | thank god | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | check out the imperial palace in tokyo if you're bored | Jun 14 02:50 |
| fewa | link? | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | very nice | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | there's a link to it on the wikipedia article | Jun 14 02:50 |
| _Mutex_ | flight ticket ?? | Jun 14 02:50 |
| TLinton_ | haha | Jun 14 02:50 |
| DaemonXP | moving its responsibilities over to Device Kit and udev | Jun 14 02:51 |
| DaemonXP | http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2 | Jun 14 02:51 |
| DaemonXP | well, if all this stuff goes well, they should have a pretty good system by release date | Jun 14 02:51 |
| DaemonXP | I'm surprised that Fedora is hesitating with all this stuff | Jun 14 02:52 |
| DaemonXP | they usually just throw it in and let whatever happens happen :P | Jun 14 02:52 |
| TLinton_ | wow, tokyo is HUGE | Jun 14 02:52 |
| TLinton_ | GYNORMOUS | Jun 14 02:52 |
| DaemonXP | GNOME is ditching a bunch of horrible legacy crap | Jun 14 02:53 |
| DaemonXP | which will be sorted out by 2.28 | Jun 14 02:53 |
| DaemonXP | one of those things is XulRunner | Jun 14 02:54 |
| TLinton_ | xul sucks | Jun 14 02:54 |
| TLinton_ | slowest thing ever conceived | Jun 14 02:54 |
| DaemonXP | they want to make it to where distros can use Webkit to render their documentation | Jun 14 02:54 |
| DaemonXP | and Epiphany will use Webkit natively | Jun 14 02:54 |
| DaemonXP | yes | Jun 14 02:54 |
| DaemonXP | Webkit will definitely help with resource use | Jun 14 02:54 |
| DaemonXP | deprecating Bonobo to migrte to dbus | Jun 14 02:55 |
| DaemonXP | I love how GNOME jsut makes all this changes span through a few releases | Jun 14 02:55 |
| DaemonXP | so it's always under contruction but users never have to know | Jun 14 02:55 |
| DaemonXP | KDE just goes years and years and dumpes a few years worth of progress on users in one gigantic chunk | Jun 14 02:56 |
| fewa | DaemonXP, i still cant find the link, could you perhaps be referring to the closed COI notice board discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#hAl_Microsoft_Topic_Ban | Jun 14 02:56 |
| fewa | ?? | Jun 14 02:56 |
| DaemonXP | with none of it having been properly tested | Jun 14 02:56 |
| DaemonXP | *dumps | Jun 14 02:56 |
| DaemonXP | what about it? | Jun 14 02:57 |
| splosion | When I used Sid, the latest greatest Gnome builds always seemed completely borked | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | a company paying people to asroturf Wikipedia? | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | thats new..... :P | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | hardly | Jun 14 02:57 |
| fewa | you just said he was going to be banned | Jun 14 02:57 |
| fewa | <DaemonXP> they're getting rid of HAL | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | no | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | Harware Abstraction Layer | Jun 14 02:57 |
| fewa | ohhhhh Hardware | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | :P | Jun 14 02:57 |
| fewa | ... | Jun 14 02:57 |
| splosion | hahahaha | Jun 14 02:57 |
| fewa | lol | Jun 14 02:57 |
| DaemonXP | *Hardware | Jun 14 02:57 |
| fewa | ROFL | Jun 14 02:58 |
| _Mutex_ | anyone who trusts wiki, as being anything but someone opinion needs to learn how to study. | Jun 14 02:58 |
| _Mutex_ | and they need to know what wikepedia actually IS. | Jun 14 02:58 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, that applies to all published text | Jun 14 02:58 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, and all human opinion | Jun 14 02:58 |
| DaemonXP | Wikis are like the damndest thing, because even though Wikipedia is typically full of shit | Jun 14 02:58 |
| DaemonXP | Wikis let you throw together a documentation site easily | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | agreed | Jun 14 02:59 |
| splosion | the true test of a geek. To laugh when someone mistakes hardware abstraction layer with a wikipedia user. I lolled. :) | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | we use docuwiki | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | it's wonderful for that, especially | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | more than mediawiki | Jun 14 02:59 |
| _Mutex_ | well most definitive texts, especially scientific texts undergo a "peer review" to ensure accuracy, thats the differece | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | no they don't | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | on wikipedia?? | Jun 14 02:59 |
| DaemonXP | I've been interested in a distribution called Foresight Linux for a while actually | Jun 14 02:59 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, not to ensure accuracy | Jun 14 02:59 |
| splosion | I can't wait for Wave to hit us. I can imagine Wavewikis being awesome. | Jun 14 02:59 |
| DaemonXP | speaking of GNOME | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | oh, NOT on wikipedia | Jun 14 02:59 |
| TLinton_ | i get it | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | but it doesn't have a huge following | Jun 14 03:00 |
| _Mutex_ | no they dont on wikepedia yes, | Jun 14 03:00 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, only plausibility | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | so things are sometimes not packaged | Jun 14 03:00 |
| TLinton_ | yep :) | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foresight_Linux | Jun 14 03:00 |
| fewa | so whos getting rid of HAL | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | I tried it out on my older Athlon64 system | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | it's fairly fast | Jun 14 03:00 |
| _Mutex_ | no also for accuracy, otherwise you wont get "published". | Jun 14 03:00 |
| fewa | and what are they replacing it with? | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | fewa: Ubuntu is | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | they say device kit and udev | Jun 14 03:00 |
| DaemonXP | devicekit is from Fedora | Jun 14 03:01 |
| DaemonXP | been in Fedora since F9 I believe | Jun 14 03:01 |
| fewa | standardization is good | Jun 14 03:01 |
| fewa | esp with hardware interfaces | Jun 14 03:01 |
| DaemonXP | yeah, shedding the old stuff that never worked quite right | Jun 14 03:01 |
| _Mutex_ | wikipedia is "history by concensis | Jun 14 03:01 |
| DaemonXP | replacing it with stuff that hopefully will | Jun 14 03:01 |
| DaemonXP | modularity is king | Jun 14 03:01 |
| DaemonXP | :) | Jun 14 03:01 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, what journalstic sources are not that | Jun 14 03:02 |
| DaemonXP | it's one of the things I really like about Linux is how much stuff can be reused | Jun 14 03:02 |
| DaemonXP | rather than reimplemented separately in every program | Jun 14 03:02 |
| DaemonXP | (Windows) | Jun 14 03:02 |
| fewa | standards | Jun 14 03:02 |
| fewa | amazing things | Jun 14 03:02 |
| DaemonXP | less bugs, less bloat, less complicated | Jun 14 03:02 |
| _Mutex_ | Wiki is a psudo encyclopeida, and jurnal and "science" is highly and carefully peer reviewed. | Jun 14 03:03 |
| fewa | you can run KDE window-manager on gnome, visa-versa | Jun 14 03:03 |
| DaemonXP | if something doesn't work, they can get rid of it without scrapping the whole program | Jun 14 03:03 |
| fewa | becuase of standards | Jun 14 03:03 |
| neighborlee | Many of those who advertise themselves as anti-Mono are, quite frankly, frightening. Calling for the deaths of Microsoft employees (see comments on Boycott Novell) < was there ever a reply about who supposedly was doing this ? | Jun 14 03:03 |
| DaemonXP | those types are probably FROM Novell | Jun 14 03:03 |
| DaemonXP | posting that | Jun 14 03:03 |
| DaemonXP | makes sense right? | Jun 14 03:03 |
| fewa | yeah | Jun 14 03:03 |
| DaemonXP | makes the place seem crazier? | Jun 14 03:03 |
| fewa | trying to portray their oppisition as crazy by pretending to be them | Jun 14 03:04 |
| neighborlee | imagine that | Jun 14 03:04 |
| fewa | just like the linux shills, that say linux isnt ready | Jun 14 03:04 |
| splosion | I reckon somebody probably made a bad analogy about killing somebody and the trolls jumped on it. | Jun 14 03:04 |
| neighborlee | no doubt | Jun 14 03:04 |
| DaemonXP | fewa: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2 | Jun 14 03:05 |
| DaemonXP | documentation notes there | Jun 14 03:05 |
| neighborlee | it just shows though what the other side atempts to do..talk about FUD ;) | Jun 14 03:05 |
| _Mutex_ | it was someone posting a comment, how is this site supposed to be responsible for that ? (a. Its not). | Jun 14 03:05 |
| DaemonXP | sounds good in theory | Jun 14 03:05 |
| DaemonXP | http://www.foresightlinux.org/ | Jun 14 03:05 |
| DaemonXP | they have a KDE edition somewhere I heard | Jun 14 03:05 |
| neighborlee | Jo's 'article' was full of nonsense..lots of childish rants <poor me>..its clear by the many responses it was obvoius what he was up to | Jun 14 03:05 |
| neighborlee | DaemonXP, I do like their package system though..fedora is going for something similar..if not exactly im not sure how its constructed | Jun 14 03:06 |
| neighborlee | conary | Jun 14 03:06 |
| neighborlee | or something | Jun 14 03:06 |
| DaemonXP | Packagekit | Jun 14 03:06 |
| DaemonXP | Kubuntu uses it | Jun 14 03:06 |
| DaemonXP | Ubuntu still uses Synaptic though | Jun 14 03:06 |
| neighborlee | no i mean what foresight was using | Jun 14 03:06 |
| DaemonXP | ? | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | yes packagekit..buggy | Jun 14 03:07 |
| DaemonXP | oh the diff patches? | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | foresight>conary | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jun 14 03:07 |
| DaemonXP | yeah, Delta RPMs | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | what fedora is now doing..or planning | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jun 14 03:07 |
| splosion | the main Mono-proponents seem to be the developers in my opinion. Most comments you see from users are either against mono out of principle or they're apathetic "Oh I use tomboy sometimes but I don't see what the fuss is about" | Jun 14 03:07 |
| DaemonXP | Conary patches are smaller and faster to apply though | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | splosion, agreed | Jun 14 03:07 |
| DaemonXP | RPM just has so much baggage | Jun 14 03:07 |
| neighborlee | splosion, jo as much as admits it LOL | Jun 14 03:07 |
| DaemonXP | neighborlee: Shuttle's KPC uses Foresight | Jun 14 03:08 |
| DaemonXP | thought about buying one | Jun 14 03:08 |
| _Mutex_ | mono is after all a development platform | Jun 14 03:08 |
| TLinton_ | what | Jun 14 03:08 |
| TLinton_ | crap | Jun 14 03:08 |
| _Mutex_ | if your not a developer its quite useless | Jun 14 03:08 |
| TLinton_ | what's so bad about mono? | Jun 14 03:08 |
| _Mutex_ | IMHO, nothing | Jun 14 03:09 |
| TLinton_ | i keep hearing about patents | Jun 14 03:09 |
| TLinton_ | but it's all theoretical as far as i can see | Jun 14 03:09 |
| _Mutex_ | Its just a blob of GPLv2 Code | Jun 14 03:09 |
| DaemonXP | well, as long as they don't sue me | Jun 14 03:09 |
| DaemonXP | I don't give a crap | Jun 14 03:09 |
| TLinton_ | not like java isn't patent encumbered anyway? | Jun 14 03:09 |
| DaemonXP | it's not like you don't have options | Jun 14 03:09 |
| TLinton_ | it's not gplv3, is it? | Jun 14 03:09 |
| TLinton_ | java i mean | Jun 14 03:09 |
| DaemonXP | if they kill off Mono then I'll use Rhythmbox instead of Banshee | Jun 14 03:09 |
| TLinton_ | it must be v2 | Jun 14 03:09 |
| _Mutex_ | according to the GPL, (and RMS) its not patent encumbered. (its in the GPL) | Jun 14 03:10 |
| TLinton_ | ok | Jun 14 03:10 |
| _Mutex_ | yes it is, right along the Linux Kernel | Jun 14 03:10 |
| splosion | The thing that makes me suspicious of mono is the *patent indemnification itself*. If Microsoft gave everybody, not just Novell, *everybody*, an unlimited, eternal covenant not to sue, I'd have ZERO problems with it. | Jun 14 03:10 |
| TLinton_ | ah | Jun 14 03:10 |
| TLinton_ | that was what i was asking the other day | Jun 14 03:10 |
| neighborlee | TLinton_, you dont know about having to download mono from novel ? ;)< and only them> | Jun 14 03:11 |
| TLinton_ | the 'agreement' is only for novell customers | Jun 14 03:11 |
| TLinton_ | no, i understand that's the problem | Jun 14 03:11 |
| neighborlee | well ok then | Jun 14 03:11 |
| DaemonXP | hmmm | Jun 14 03:11 |
| _Mutex_ | I cant see how MS or Novell has any control over the code once they tack on the GPL, this is all about the GPL, which some seem to need a re-read of | Jun 14 03:11 |
| DaemonXP | apparently GNOME is ditching HAL | Jun 14 03:11 |
| TLinton_ | i guess it discriminates against other distros | Jun 14 03:11 |
| DaemonXP | hat's why Ubuntu is | Jun 14 03:11 |
| TLinton_ | which is dumb considering it's all free software | Jun 14 03:11 |
| TLinton_ | technically | Jun 14 03:11 |
| _Mutex_ | yes it is | Jun 14 03:11 |
| DaemonXP | Complete migration from HAL to DeviceKit-* done. Fedora targets this for Fedora 11. No need for GNOME to track this too, trusting Red Hat here. | Jun 14 03:11 |
| neighborlee | yup | Jun 14 03:12 |
| DaemonXP | http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/ | Jun 14 03:12 |
| TLinton_ | ok, i get it | Jun 14 03:12 |
| TLinton_ | why won't microsoft issue a blanket assurance of indemnification then? | Jun 14 03:12 |
| TLinton_ | that would help mono get into all the distros | Jun 14 03:12 |
| neighborlee | people have asked...no ecma in sight | Jun 14 03:12 |
| TLinton_ | and the whole boycott thing would be moot | Jun 14 03:12 |
| DaemonXP | They plan to ditch Mozilla Xulrunner by July 27th | Jun 14 03:12 |
| _Mutex_ | as far as I can tell, by releasing it under the GPL, by the word of the GPL they have | Jun 14 03:12 |
| DaemonXP | and transition to Webkit will be complete | Jun 14 03:13 |
| TLinton_ | _Mutex_:but i guess this website doesn't see it that way? | Jun 14 03:13 |
| _Mutex_ | I guess not, | Jun 14 03:13 |
| TLinton_ | i mean boycottnovell | Jun 14 03:13 |
| neighborlee | they dont want to open it..but if linux uses it well its a rubber stamp of approval | Jun 14 03:13 |
| TLinton_ | it seems stupid to me at least | Jun 14 03:13 |
| splosion | TLinton_: from an objective viewpoint, Microsoft have no reason not to extend their promise to everybody. Secretly I think it was designed to cause arguments | Jun 14 03:13 |
| TLinton_ | ok | Jun 14 03:14 |
| TLinton_ | but if their goal is to introduce their technology to the linux environments | Jun 14 03:14 |
| splosion | but that's black helicopter stuff so I don't talk about it :) | Jun 14 03:14 |
| TLinton_ | then wouldn't it be easier to issue the blanket protection | Jun 14 03:14 |
| splosion | yeah, you'd think | Jun 14 03:14 |
| TLinton_ | then *everyone* would use mono | Jun 14 03:14 |
| TLinton_ | crowds would go wild | Jun 14 03:14 |
| TLinton_ | and so on | Jun 14 03:15 |
| splosion | well yeah | Jun 14 03:15 |
| TLinton_ | so it seems that the arguments are incompatible | Jun 14 03:15 |
| _Mutex_ | hang on, isnt the fight about it being incorporated into Ubuntu, last I checked they are not novell !! | Jun 14 03:15 |
| TLinton_ | one, mono is bad because it might be patent encumbered | Jun 14 03:15 |
| TLinton_ | two, microsoft *wants* everyone to use mono for nefrious purposes | Jun 14 03:16 |
| TLinton_ | *nefarious | Jun 14 03:16 |
| splosion | Microsoft could play nice. Microsoft funded the Cleverage plugin that allows *really good* ODF compatability in Office. It's even hosted on sourceforge! It even has a BSD licence. They could put it into Office, but instead, their official SP2 is completely broken. Why? They already have the code they need to play nice. Why aren't they using it? | Jun 14 03:16 |
| TLinton_ | but they won't do something as simple as issue a blanket "we won't sue anyone" to get it into linux | Jun 14 03:16 |
| TLinton_ | i mean logically it makes no sense | Jun 14 03:17 |
| splosion | nope | Jun 14 03:17 |
| splosion | which leads to the obvious conclusion: they don't want to interoperate | Jun 14 03:17 |
| splosion | they want to control their competitors | Jun 14 03:17 |
| _Mutex_ | Stallman added: "Mono will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With Mono, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use." | Jun 14 03:18 |
| TLinton_ | but they can't control gpl'ed code | Jun 14 03:18 |
| neighborlee | splosion, same question for mono I guess ,,whoda thunk..bury odf with ooxml,,they have money..shareholders to satisfy..ive seen statement by them saying they have no plans to open .net...not that long ago...so yup you got it | Jun 14 03:18 |
| splosion | which should be obvious. If Linux wins, microsoft loses. Microsoft cannot let that happen. They are in the business to make money for their shareholders, and the shareholders demand that they do | Jun 14 03:18 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, we have gone over that before..people change. | Jun 14 03:18 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, some people anyway.. | Jun 14 03:18 |
| TLinton_ | microsoft has no control over redhat | Jun 14 03:18 |
| _Mutex_ | I particularly like the bit "freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that y ou use". | Jun 14 03:18 |
| TLinton_ | anymore than redhat has control over centos | Jun 14 03:18 |
| TLinton_ | only their trademarks | Jun 14 03:19 |
| _Mutex_ | You think RMS has changed his opinion regarding mono ? | Jun 14 03:19 |
| neighborlee | I know his stance on it | Jun 14 03:19 |
| neighborlee | he said its 'dangerous' to make apps WITH IT | Jun 14 03:19 |
| neighborlee | keep up | Jun 14 03:19 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 03:19 |
| _Mutex_ | did he ?? link please | Jun 14 03:19 |
| neighborlee | yes he did | Jun 14 03:20 |
| neighborlee | i'd have to look..i don thave it handy sorry | Jun 14 03:20 |
| _Mutex_ | http://www.gnu.org/press/2001-07-09-DotGNU-Mono.html | Jun 14 03:20 |
| neighborlee | maybe roy does.im sure he prob. does.. | Jun 14 03:20 |
| _Mutex_ | ive showed you mine :) | Jun 14 03:20 |
| neighborlee | lol ;) | Jun 14 03:20 |
| _Mutex_ | I used to love that game :D | Jun 14 03:20 |
| neighborlee | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/richard-stallman-on-mono/ | Jun 14 03:21 |
| neighborlee | top of page | Jun 14 03:21 |
| neighborlee | note the date | Jun 14 03:21 |
| neighborlee | http://fsfe.org/documents/rms-fs-2006-03-09.en.html#q1 | Jun 14 03:22 |
| _Mutex_ | you left out the MAY be dangerous | Jun 14 03:22 |
| neighborlee | no matter,,he said it | Jun 14 03:22 |
| neighborlee | if he wasn't worried..he would not have said anything | Jun 14 03:22 |
| neighborlee | mono is great says RMS>.please everyone use it..lets go!!<lemmings go nuts> | Jun 14 03:22 |
| neighborlee | theoretically he said that of course..hey lemmings is a cute game though ! | Jun 14 03:23 |
| _Mutex_ | He goes on to say (in teh same paragraph) "Mono is a free implementation of a language that users use. It's good to provide free implementations. We should have free implementations of every language." | Jun 14 03:23 |
| neighborlee | changes nothing. | Jun 14 03:24 |
| neighborlee | groklaw still applies..yadda | Jun 14 03:24 |
| _Mutex_ | but fills in the blanks and points more accuractly as to what RMS is trying to convey | Jun 14 03:24 |
| neighborlee | fedora current stance..yadda | Jun 14 03:24 |
| neighborlee | how much more do you need ;) | Jun 14 03:24 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont need anything more than RMS and the GPL the GPL is a license, Mono like the Linux kernel is one and the same, IMO | Jun 14 03:25 |
| _Mutex_ | Much much more that groklaw, pj after all INAL | Jun 14 03:25 |
| _Mutex_ | and is not the difinitive authority of teh GPL. | Jun 14 03:26 |
| neighborlee | she may not be..maybe you want to refer to the lawyer that verified her suspicions ?? | Jun 14 03:28 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL oh RMS great for the one liners "But fortunately, no Gods. Instead of Gods, we worship an editor. : | Jun 14 03:29 |
| neighborlee | there/s a link for that too on the groklaw article if you didn't read it all o_0 | Jun 14 03:29 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, you crucify him when its convenient is that it ? | Jun 14 03:29 |
| _Mutex_ | I just thought it was amusing, no and crucify might be construded as a death threat LOL | Jun 14 03:30 |
| neighborlee | oh and Jo is the paragon of virtue ..saying <poor me>about the antimono shills..their horrible death threat and language abuse...remember the f*** words he used not long ago on BN ? | Jun 14 03:30 |
| _Mutex_ | I would not know a Jo if i triped over one, so he virtuosity is of no concern to me. nor is some consulting lawyer for Groklaw, I would rather see the FSF law society comment on it. | Jun 14 03:31 |
| _Mutex_ | or someone who knows the GPL really really well, like mabey the guy who wrote it (whoever that was ) | Jun 14 03:32 |
| neighborlee | doesnt matter if you KNOW him..just that you concede his bitterness and language abuse | Jun 14 03:32 |
| neighborlee | while playing poor me later to crucify others convictions ;) | Jun 14 03:32 |
| _Mutex_ | well if I dont know him I cant concede to anything that he has done, as i dont know him, that would be engaging in speculation. | Jun 14 03:33 |
| _Mutex_ | im not big on that | Jun 14 03:33 |
| neighborlee | you can read the same articles I can | Jun 14 03:33 |
| neighborlee | whew | Jun 14 03:33 |
| _Mutex_ | I know I can, | Jun 14 03:33 |
| neighborlee | if you missed a few thats not a problem..we dont all have time I peruse the entirety of the internet I realize <dont I wish> | Jun 14 03:34 |
| _Mutex_ | I have that freedom or I can choose not too, and get my information from more accurate sources, | Jun 14 03:34 |
| neighborlee | btw I respect militiary though I wish we could get BY without it | Jun 14 03:34 |
| neighborlee | my father was medic in navy | Jun 14 03:34 |
| neighborlee | so... | Jun 14 03:34 |
| neighborlee | just an aside | Jun 14 03:34 |
| neighborlee | a point of some..commonality..humanity.. | Jun 14 03:35 |
| _Mutex_ | my dad drove a truck :) | Jun 14 03:36 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 03:36 |
| neighborlee | payed the bills...we all do our part which makes things go round | Jun 14 03:36 |
| splosion | my dad was a gravedigger. Well, only for a couple of years. But that's what it says on my birth certificate | Jun 14 03:37 |
| neighborlee | very kewl | Jun 14 03:37 |
| neighborlee | splosion, I mean somebody has to do it..what a nice thing to do I think..help put loved ones to rest... | Jun 14 03:38 |
| splosion | shame I was never into the gothic scene. A gravedigger father, a room painted black with black curtains, oh it could have been awesome. \m/ fuck light \m/ | Jun 14 03:38 |
| neighborlee | Idont want to be buried..I cant be where I want to be < near mother and gparents> , so I think cremation..throw ashes or bury them near her then maybe ;0- | Jun 14 03:38 |
| neighborlee | splosion, ROFL | Jun 14 03:39 |
| neighborlee | you nailed that one ;)) | Jun 14 03:39 |
| _Mutex_ | "If, pursuant to or in connection with a single transaction or arrangement, you convey, or propagate by procuring conveyance of, a covered work, and grant a patent license to some of the parties receiving the covered work authorizing them to use, propagate, modify or convey a specific copy of the covered work, then the patent license you grant is automatically extended to all recipients of the covered work and works based on it." | Jun 14 03:49 |
| _Mutex_ | seems clear to me ! | Jun 14 03:50 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, get a message from Microsoft's lawyers | Jun 14 04:00 |
| _Mutex_ | I know im stupid, but I dont understand what that means :) | Jun 14 04:01 |
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| :) | Jun 14 04:08 | |
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| US torture lawyer faces lawsuit over his memos. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avT0.R96jAFI | Jun 14 05:17 | |
| NYT write up is more informative http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/us/politics/14yoo.html?ref=global-home | Jun 14 05:19 | |
| _Mutex_ | lets hope they upstream it to the entire bush administration | Jun 14 05:19 |
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| yuhong | BTW, on MS, Dell, and GNU/Linux, what do you think is happening? | Jun 14 05:22 |
| oiaohm | Lets just see what the EU does to MS windows. | Jun 14 05:23 |
| _Mutex_ | in reference to IE ? | Jun 14 05:24 |
| yuhong | Yea, it is old and dates all the way back to IE4's desktop update. | Jun 14 05:24 |
| _Mutex_ | I actually dont think there is much more the EU can do, MS did what they asked and removed it, they just did not do what the EU really wanted that was get MS to promote competitores products. | Jun 14 05:25 |
| _Mutex_ | But they got what they asked for, leaving them powerless IMO on that issue. | Jun 14 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Anti-trust courts of the EU are strange beasts. | Jun 14 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Even that EU asked MS to unbundle they have not done it on every version of Windows going to be released. | Jun 14 05:26 |
| _Mutex_ | it seems they are more interested in boosting their coffers than actually doing anything good. | Jun 14 05:26 |
| _Mutex_ | no only w7 for the EU, as was the requirement | Jun 14 05:26 |
| oiaohm | EU anti-trust also has a no repeat clause. Ie if a past action did not work a different action has to be enforced in future. | Jun 14 05:27 |
| _Mutex_ | they are not going to do more than they need to. and they wont be able to be forced to bundle other browsers, so they just remove IE from W7 for europe and their dont. | Jun 14 05:27 |
| oiaohm | So unbundling has not worked they are legally bound to apply something different. | Jun 14 05:27 |
| _Mutex_ | No, they cant retrospectively do it, | Jun 14 05:28 |
| oiaohm | EU anti-trust can block all imports into the EU. | Jun 14 05:28 |
| oiaohm | Lets see how this plays out. | Jun 14 05:28 |
| _Mutex_ | IF there is legal grounds for them to do so, they cannot "just do it for no reason". | Jun 14 05:28 |
| oiaohm | Either MS will do as anti-trust asked. | Jun 14 05:28 |
| _Mutex_ | They have | Jun 14 05:28 |
| oiaohm | This time they asked for a selection on install. | Jun 14 05:29 |
| oiaohm | MS answered with what they were asked to do last time. | Jun 14 05:29 |
| oiaohm | The is EU anti-trust. | Jun 14 05:29 |
| oiaohm | No repeats. | Jun 14 05:29 |
| oiaohm | MS has answered incorrectly. | Jun 14 05:29 |
| _Mutex_ | they changed it because they did not like what happend, but MS will NOT bundle or provide a selection, its not even an End user issue, its an OEM issue. | Jun 14 05:30 |
| _Mutex_ | No customer in the EU will recieve W7 with a browser, unless they buy a shrink wrapped copy. | Jun 14 05:30 |
| oiaohm | EU anti-trust whats browser selection put to end user. | Jun 14 05:30 |
| oiaohm | whats/wants | Jun 14 05:30 |
| oiaohm | That was there most recent ruling. | Jun 14 05:31 |
| oiaohm | MS is trying to apply past ruling. | Jun 14 05:31 |
| oiaohm | With EU anti-trust past ruling means nothing. | Jun 14 05:31 |
| _Mutex_ | yes i know, they has a ruling, MS complied, but it was not good enough so EU decide to raise the goal posts, im sure MS will tell them to go eat Sh1t | Jun 14 05:32 |
| yuhong | BTW, on MS, Dell, and GNU/Linux, what do you think is happening? | Jun 14 05:32 |
| _Mutex_ | My local computer shop sells pcs with Windows and safari installed. | Jun 14 05:32 |
| oiaohm | Anti-trust EU is allowed by law to move the goal posts as much as they like. | Jun 14 05:32 |
| oiaohm | Dell will ship Linux as it profitable. | Jun 14 05:32 |
| _Mutex_ | whether it will work or not is debatable, and even the EU have to abide by the law | Jun 14 05:33 |
| confusion, madness and revision in Windoze land http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=19633 | Jun 14 05:33 | |
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| oiaohm | EU anti-trust laws allows anti-trust regulators extream powers _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:33 |
| yuhong | I think MS first tried to kill it. | Jun 14 05:33 |
| the author talks about XP in glowing terms, but it was viewed as a turd promoted by the ignorant at the time. | Jun 14 05:34 | |
| yuhong | Then they try to tax it. | Jun 14 05:34 |
| _Mutex_ | how are you going to like it when the EU forces liability on FOSS for shoddy product ? | Jun 14 05:34 |
| _Mutex_ | extreem powers within the law | Jun 14 05:34 |
| yuhong | First by using Novell SUSE, then using codecs. | Jun 14 05:34 |
| _Mutex_ | even the might EU is not allowed to break the law | Jun 14 05:34 |
| oiaohm | Like companies in the past have obeyed the regulator and still been broken up because in the end anti-trust regulators decide that was for the good of the market _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:34 |
| _Mutex_ | EU has power in Europe, they have no power to break up a company that is not based in the EU. | Jun 14 05:35 |
| adoption of XP was anything but "universal" - it took about 4 years to reach 50%. | Jun 14 05:35 | |
| _Mutex_ | wow, an os to get to 50% in 4 years is quite an achievment !! | Jun 14 05:36 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: funny enough. EU anti-trust regulator has the legal right to attack MS in USA courts. | Jun 14 05:36 |
| _Mutex_ | link please | Jun 14 05:36 |
| _Mutex_ | so why dont they ? | Jun 14 05:36 |
| oiaohm | Because for them to do that MS has to fail to obey instructions. | Jun 14 05:37 |
| _Mutex_ | nuff said. | Jun 14 05:37 |
| I have to laugh at the crazy talk of employees being given a stipend which they then use to purchase a computer. Is this how M$ will sneak Vista 7 into the corporate workplace? | Jun 14 05:37 | |
| oiaohm | Like when MS decided not to pay there EU fines. | Jun 14 05:37 |
| oiaohm | EU frooze usa assets of MS's. | Jun 14 05:38 |
| he repeats the Vista "image problem" lie. | Jun 14 05:38 | |
| oiaohm | EU anti-trust regulator truly does have teeth. Lets see how much they take out of MS this time. | Jun 14 05:38 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, let see. | Jun 14 05:39 |
| Here's an incomplete list of Wintel magazine people reporting Vista problems at the time. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/192990 | Jun 14 05:41 | |
| _Mutex_ | http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-311100.html | Jun 14 05:42 |
| oiaohm | In theory if MS does not do what they are told to the EU regulator it can fine MS to the complete value of the assets then take the company and break it up. That it a usa company does not block the EU from doing that _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:42 |
| _Mutex_ | I guess the EU is not allways bad | Jun 14 05:42 |
| The words for such unusual agreement are, "consensus opinion" | Jun 14 05:43 | |
| _Mutex_ | I actually doubt that very much | Jun 14 05:43 |
| oiaohm | But that would require MS to be stupid. | Jun 14 05:43 |
| oiaohm | And not obey order. | Jun 14 05:43 |
| _Mutex_ | Im sure the US government would just love seeing the EU come in a screw with US companies, I would bet my house the US gov would step on and stop that. | Jun 14 05:44 |
| _Mutex_ | Ok what if the EU decided to do that with Red Hat ? | Jun 14 05:44 |
| The Wintel press was not alone in it's disappointment. I logged user, industry and business reactions in the Vista Failure Log. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855 | Jun 14 05:44 | |
| oiaohm | There is a joint agreement between the USA and the EU so companies in each cannot do crimes in either and not pay fines _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:44 |
| oiaohm | Now if MS does not want to come under EU anti-trust rules they simply don't ship product there. | Jun 14 05:45 |
| With all of that to remind everyone, how can anyone be so bold faced about Vista as to say it was just misunderstood? | Jun 14 05:45 | |
| _Mutex_ | paying fines and fining a company so much that is brings them down is 2 totally different things. | Jun 14 05:45 |
| oiaohm | That is allowed by the agreement _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:45 |
| oiaohm | Company does have one option to avoid over sized fines. | Jun 14 05:46 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey, but you know as well as I do its just aint gonna happen, (unless in someone dreams). lets be a BIT real here | Jun 14 05:46 |
| oiaohm | Never ship into the other market every again. | Jun 14 05:46 |
| oiaohm | So highly damaging either way. | Jun 14 05:46 |
| _Mutex_ | which is why it wont happen | Jun 14 05:47 |
| Jason Hiner, Editor in Chief of Tech Republic. | Jun 14 05:47 | |
| oiaohm | MS will have to obey the regulator sooner or latter _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:47 |
| oiaohm | Legally there is no other outcome _Mutex_ | Jun 14 05:47 |
| oiaohm | Unless you call death of company a good outcome. | Jun 14 05:48 |
| For some reason, he concludes his strange editorial with reference to Bill Gate's infamous 1976 Open Letter to Hobbiests. Think he's a BN reader? | Jun 14 05:48 | |
| _Mutex_ | well they did, they unbundled IE, that should of been the end of it, any further EU actions are unwarranted, no company should cowtow to standover tackics by anyone. but its not going to happen, and if it does, youcan come see me and ill give you a million dollars,,, thats just how sure I am | Jun 14 05:48 |
| Ick, he also references Ed Bott. | Jun 14 05:48 | |
| Ha, he's got 69 replies. Astroturf on top of fake news! | Jun 14 05:49 | |
| _Mutex_ | The world of open-source development could be divided if the European Commission succeeds in passing a law extending consumer protection rules to software, according to experts. | Jun 14 05:50 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: EU rules don't work that way. Has the damage of the illegal anti-trust actions been undone. | Jun 14 05:50 |
| _Mutex_ | so is that a good thing too because its from teh EU ? | Jun 14 05:50 |
| oiaohm | If no regulator can keep on applying more restrictions. | Jun 14 05:51 |
| _Mutex_ | you say you know how the EU works ?? wow, I dont even think the EU knows that, | Jun 14 05:51 |
| oiaohm | anti-trust rules in the EU are very old. | Jun 14 05:51 |
| _Mutex_ | as probably are extortion laws too. | Jun 14 05:52 |
| oiaohm | They are based off the german model of anti-trust. | Jun 14 05:52 |
| oiaohm | Not something you want to be on the wrong side of. | Jun 14 05:52 |
| _Mutex_ | the EU wont break up or destroy MS, its too good of a cash cow for them. | Jun 14 05:52 |
| _Mutex_ | Sorry, i hold no fear of the EU whatsoever | Jun 14 05:53 |
| oiaohm | they have broken up other cash cows in the past. | Jun 14 05:53 |
| _Mutex_ | who? | Jun 14 05:53 |
| _Mutex_ | cash cows for the EU I mean. | Jun 14 05:53 |
| oiaohm | One car company a complete bank and the list goes on. | Jun 14 05:53 |
| _Mutex_ | Link pls | Jun 14 05:54 |
| oiaohm | This is over 100 years. | Jun 14 05:54 |
| oiaohm | There will always been another person/company to become the next cash cow. | Jun 14 05:54 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure there is still reference to it somewhere, otherwise how do you know they did ? | Jun 14 05:54 |
| oiaohm | I would have to dig up notes from sitting through a compare of the global anti-trust systems. | Jun 14 05:55 |
| _Mutex_ | making claims of doom and gloom without supporting proof, is little more than ,, "fear, uncertainty and doubt" IMHO. I tend to stick to the facts I find much more well true,, generally | Jun 14 05:56 |
| _Mutex_ | And if I dont have backup for a statement, I tend not to state it, for that reason. | Jun 14 05:56 |
| A better history of events points to general disappointment with XP followed by the complete rejection of Vista. The Vista consensus opinion is rapidly becoming a Windows consensus opinion. Windows is never going to be fixed and should be avoided. Vista 7 will finish M$ off. | Jun 14 05:57 | |
| If M$ does not implode before release. | Jun 14 05:57 | |
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| _Mutex_ | yes, i mean they have only sold 180 million copyies of vista, must be pretty crappy. | Jun 14 05:58 |
| _Mutex_ | sure, thats only 18 times what canonical states are the Ununtu install base (10 million). | Jun 14 05:59 |
| TLinton_ | if xp had been a disappointment then the same thing that happened with vista would have happened to it | Jun 14 05:59 |
| TLinton_ | no one would have upgraded | Jun 14 05:59 |
| TLinton_ | xp ran on the same hardware as windows 2000 | Jun 14 05:59 |
| TLinton_ | once the dumb eye candy was removed | Jun 14 06:00 |
| TLinton_ | so i don't think it was a failure | Jun 14 06:00 |
| _Mutex_ | XP and win2k are very close structurally I belive | Jun 14 06:00 |
| _Mutex_ | not used much W2k | Jun 14 06:00 |
| TLinton_ | i guess | Jun 14 06:00 |
| TLinton_ | i didn't use 2000 much either | Jun 14 06:00 |
| TLinton_ | we went from nt4 to xp in 2002 i think | Jun 14 06:00 |
| oiaohm | XP had buffer protections removed that was the major difference from windows 2000 internally. | Jun 14 06:01 |
| TLinton_ | but i remember it was plenty fast | Jun 14 06:01 |
| TLinton_ | on a pII 450 iirc | Jun 14 06:01 |
| oiaohm | So XP was more unstable than 2000. | Jun 14 06:01 |
| _Mutex_ | im not sure but i think Xp was the last in the NT line, win2k was the next one and vista is something different again. | Jun 14 06:01 |
| oiaohm | MS put the buffer protections back in Vista. | Jun 14 06:01 |
| oiaohm | Vista is still a NT core. | Jun 14 06:02 |
| _Mutex_ | is it, i found XP exceedingly stable, so W2k must be ok, | Jun 14 06:02 |
| _Mutex_ | yes I think your right. | Jun 14 06:02 |
| TLinton_ | isn't vista server 2003? | Jun 14 06:02 |
| oiaohm | Video and audio levels altered. | Jun 14 06:02 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, in the kernel | Jun 14 06:02 |
| TLinton_ | right | Jun 14 06:02 |
| TLinton_ | the one thing i found annoying about xp was setting it up initially | Jun 14 06:02 |
| oiaohm | Major headache in vista is so call protected path. | Jun 14 06:02 |
| _Mutex_ | never encounted it, what does it do ? | Jun 14 06:03 |
| TLinton_ | getting rid of the window gadgets and the search doggie | Jun 14 06:03 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh, i missed the search doggie, and clippie LOL | Jun 14 06:03 |
| oiaohm | Ment to block drm play back from being caputured si what protected path does. | Jun 14 06:03 |
| _Mutex_ | I want them to bring clippy back, | Jun 14 06:03 |
| _Mutex_ | actually I hated that damn thing | Jun 14 06:04 |
| yuhong | I don't think protected path is that of a major headache. | Jun 14 06:04 |
| _Mutex_ | what does it do ? | Jun 14 06:04 |
| yuhong | It is only enabled with DRM content. | Jun 14 06:04 |
| DaemonMDV | Windows 2000 and the original release of XP were not very different | Jun 14 06:04 |
| yuhong | In fact, even protected processes are only a headache when you want to do debugging on them. | Jun 14 06:04 |
| _Mutex_ | oh DRM, ive never encounted DRM ever !!. (i guess i dont steal enough songs) | Jun 14 06:04 |
| oiaohm | It effects the buffer handling in the video stack as well yuhong | Jun 14 06:05 |
| yuhong | Yep, 2000 and XP were not that different. | Jun 14 06:05 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 14 06:05 |
| oiaohm | The effects on the video stack effect everything. | Jun 14 06:05 |
| yuhong | I don't think 7 will be the last release of Windows. | Jun 14 06:05 |
| DaemonMDV | there was more difference between XP RTM and XP SP2 than between 2000 and XP RTM | Jun 14 06:05 |
| yuhong | True, MS itself can't get rid of all the viruses in the Windows platform. | Jun 14 06:06 |
| DaemonMDV | XP SP2 held up Vista while they were frantically backporting stuff to XP | Jun 14 06:06 |
| yuhong | Yep, XP SP2 was a security release. | Jun 14 06:06 |
| yuhong | They added buffer overflow protection in VC 7.0. | Jun 14 06:06 |
| _Mutex_ | considering they are allready working on the next version of windows I would tend to agree | Jun 14 06:06 |
| yuhong | They enabled it in Server 2003. | Jun 14 06:06 |
| DaemonMDV | it helped stop a lot of the stupid automated worms | Jun 14 06:06 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 14 06:06 |
| DaemonMDV | but didn't do a whole lot for user-initiated malware | Jun 14 06:07 |
| yuhong | This as well as many other security-related changes in Server 2003 was ported into XP SP2. | Jun 14 06:07 |
| DaemonMDV | if Limewire was shut down I believe the number of spyware infections on Windows would be cut in half | Jun 14 06:07 |
| DaemonMDV | almost instantly | Jun 14 06:07 |
| DaemonMDV | err, Gnutella rather | Jun 14 06:07 |
| yuhong | True, even ReactOS can't do much about them. | Jun 14 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Reactos has not got to security system yet. | Jun 14 06:08 |
| DaemonMDV | ReactOS is actually not vulnerable to as many Windows viruses as you'd think | Jun 14 06:08 |
| oiaohm | yep it lacks a lot of the secuirty flaws. | Jun 14 06:08 |
| DaemonMDV | they can probably achieve a good deal of compatibility without doing the obviously stupid shit that allows malware to run rampant | Jun 14 06:08 |
| oiaohm | In the development of Reactos they have found many windows design flaws. | Jun 14 06:08 |
| DaemonMDV | yes, and to achieve compatibility, they have to re-implement a lot of Windows bugs as well | Jun 14 06:09 |
| yuhong | True, ReactOS is different code that doesn't have the same buffer overflows as windows. | Jun 14 06:09 |
| oiaohm | Like bindly trusting that syscalls would be buffer safe because only ntdll would provide them. | Jun 14 06:09 |
| DaemonMDV | which is why Linux, from a design standpoint, is better than ReactOS | Jun 14 06:09 |
| oiaohm | How can you define nuts. | Jun 14 06:09 |
| _Mutex_ | virus'es and malware are actually a thing of the past with modern operating systems, after a minimum amount of effort, (like 5 minutes). and no cost | Jun 14 06:09 |
| DaemonMDV | UNIX is just a specification, it never demands BINARY compatibility | Jun 14 06:09 |
| yuhong | Yes a worm could be written for ReactOS, but it would be different from a Windows worm. | Jun 14 06:09 |
| DaemonMDV | so Linux has more wiggle room | Jun 14 06:09 |
| _Mutex_ | and almost zero cpu overhead | Jun 14 06:10 |
| yuhong | "In the development of Reactos they have found many windows design flaws." | Jun 14 06:10 |
| yuhong | Can you give me an example? | Jun 14 06:10 |
| DaemonMDV | well, actual viruses are almost extinct if you want to get technical | Jun 14 06:10 |
| oiaohm | I already gave one | Jun 14 06:10 |
| DaemonMDV | most malware anymore are actually trojan horses | Jun 14 06:10 |
| oiaohm | think syscalls would be safe because they allways should come from ntdll.dll. | Jun 14 06:10 |
| yuhong | Well, even Windows probe pointers before accessing them. | Jun 14 06:11 |
| yuhong | And use SEH to protect them. | Jun 14 06:11 |
| DaemonMDV | if you look at a typical antivirus pattern database | Jun 14 06:11 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of those problems in XP. | Jun 14 06:11 |
| _Mutex_ | my av software is locked solidly on 00% CPU time. and 360k ram | Jun 14 06:11 |
| DaemonMDV | over 70% of what it detects will be trojans | Jun 14 06:11 |
| DaemonMDV | only about 10% are technically viruses | Jun 14 06:11 |
| oiaohm | SEH is also a windows weakness. | Jun 14 06:11 |
| yuhong | Yep, MS addressed SEH overwrites with SafeSEH. | Jun 14 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Due to windows design you do a operaiont you are not permitted to do you can catch it on a SEH. | Jun 14 06:12 |
| oiaohm | So an attack can completely probe for weaknesses. | Jun 14 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Where Linux application ends up dead. | Jun 14 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Sometimes keeping programs running is the wrong thing. | Jun 14 06:12 |
| DaemonMDV | if ReactOS implements a proper user/administrator separation | Jun 14 06:12 |
| DaemonMDV | it will correct the biggest Windows flaw | Jun 14 06:13 |
| yuhong | Well, you can do the same thing with signal handlers, but it is not as convinent. | Jun 14 06:13 |
| _Mutex_ | keep in mind that windows has exactly the same security rating as SOME versions of Linux, and higher than most distro's of linux | Jun 14 06:13 |
| DaemonMDV | BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! | Jun 14 06:13 |
| oiaohm | yuhong: linux MAC's you do something you are not approved you don't even get a single application is just dead. | Jun 14 06:13 |
| DaemonMDV | that must be why there's a couple dozen viruses over the last 18 years for Linux | Jun 14 06:13 |
| DaemonMDV | and 571,000 for Windows | Jun 14 06:14 |
| oiaohm | single/signal | Jun 14 06:14 |
| yuhong | Basically SafeSEH uses a SEH handler table generated by Visual C++ 7.1 and later. | Jun 14 06:14 |
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| oiaohm | SafeSEH still allows probing. | Jun 14 06:14 |
| oiaohm | Using SEH to prevent application death. | Jun 14 06:14 |
| DaemonMDV | actually more than that, ClamAV deletes patterns of really old ones | Jun 14 06:14 |
| yuhong | Windows Server 2003 and XP SP2 and later validate the SEH handler against this table. | Jun 14 06:14 |
| DaemonMDV | so probably over 600,000 | Jun 14 06:14 |
| yuhong | Incorrect use of SEH led to the ANI vulerablity. | Jun 14 06:15 |
| _Mutex_ | that could also be that Windows is ubiqutious, and is a nice big target, but the fast there are nearly 600,000 viruses, and its still trivial to secure againt ALL of they says alot for Windows security. | Jun 14 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | wrong | Jun 14 06:15 |
| _Mutex_ | 600,000 or 6 million, if they cant break into your maching they are pointless. | Jun 14 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | if Windows was secure and antivirus worked (it doesn't) | Jun 14 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | then viruses wouldn't get in, turn off your antivirus | Jun 14 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | turn off updates | Jun 14 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | turn off the firewall | Jun 14 06:15 |
| DaemonMDV | and proceed to join their botnet | Jun 14 06:15 |
| _Mutex_ | Sorry,, but it acutally does work, its a trivial matter to secure windows, anyone can do it. even me. | Jun 14 06:16 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jun 14 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | antivirus is ineffective | Jun 14 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | and drains a lot of system resources | Jun 14 06:16 |
| _Mutex_ | my machines are on the net 24/7 and i never ever have a problem. | Jun 14 06:16 |
| oiaohm | You mean install Linux I hope _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:16 |
| yuhong | In fact, most virus damage can be limited by running not as admin. | Jun 14 06:16 |
| yuhong | Not worms however. | Jun 14 06:16 |
| _Mutex_ | my av software is consuming 0% cpu and 360K KILOBYTES of ram. | Jun 14 06:16 |
| oiaohm | Running as a guest user. | Jun 14 06:16 |
| DaemonMDV | the very best ones "only" cut your disk access performance in half | Jun 14 06:16 |
| _Mutex_ | not really that much system resources there | Jun 14 06:16 |
| oiaohm | I can can take control of a Windows machine. | Jun 14 06:17 |
| oiaohm | Very small flaw. | Jun 14 06:17 |
| oiaohm | Everyone can start something a system user level. | Jun 14 06:17 |
| _Mutex_ | so if I gave you my IP address you could hack into my PC ?? | Jun 14 06:17 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't care about your PC | Jun 14 06:17 |
| oiaohm | When you are a limited user on Linux Mac anything other than windows. | Jun 14 06:17 |
| _Mutex_ | thas ok you didnt say you could break into it | Jun 14 06:18 |
| oiaohm | You cannot run code as the highest user on the system. | Jun 14 06:18 |
| DaemonMDV | I couldn't, but I'm not a Russian mafia type | Jun 14 06:18 |
| DaemonMDV | they're the ones that make the worms that do this stuff | Jun 14 06:18 |
| oiaohm | Network attack is not the kind of attack I am talking about _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:18 |
| oiaohm | I am talking about giving you an application that will take control of your system. | Jun 14 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah man, free porn | Jun 14 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | just double click this plug in | Jun 14 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 14 06:19 |
| DaemonMDV | here's your sign :P | Jun 14 06:19 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry I thought you said you can take control or a windows machine ?? what when your sitting in front of it ? | Jun 14 06:19 |
| oiaohm | Only reason why it works from guest account in that the secuirty system of windows of swiss cheese. | Jun 14 06:19 |
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| DaemonMDV | or then there's viruses that install themselves through holes in IE | Jun 14 06:19 |
| oiaohm | MS has even annonce they are not even fixing it in Windows 7 | Jun 14 06:20 |
| DaemonMDV | god knows there's about enough leaks it springs | Jun 14 06:20 |
| DaemonMDV | with ActiveX and .Net | Jun 14 06:20 |
| oiaohm | The means to use rundll32 to start a service at system level. | Jun 14 06:20 |
| oiaohm | So allowing the secuirty of the complete system to be overridden. | Jun 14 06:20 |
| _Mutex_ | and how do you access the maching to execute rundll32 ? | Jun 14 06:20 |
| DaemonMDV | and now some of Internet Explorer's holes will affect Firefox too | Jun 14 06:20 |
| oiaohm | Any flaw. | Jun 14 06:20 |
| _Mutex_ | its easy to say you can hack a pc "once your allready in". even I can do that. | Jun 14 06:21 |
| DaemonMDV | when it's running on XP or Vista | Jun 14 06:21 |
| oiaohm | Firefox internet explorer. | Jun 14 06:21 |
| DaemonMDV | thanks to the .Net plugin Microsoft trojaned in | Jun 14 06:21 |
| oiaohm | Under Linux these are limtied to 1 user. | Jun 14 06:21 |
| oiaohm | dead. | Jun 14 06:21 |
| oiaohm | Under windows system dead. | Jun 14 06:21 |
| yuhong | I know. | Jun 14 06:21 |
| _Mutex_ | one linux user with root can do anything, and everything, once you have root its game over. | Jun 14 06:22 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: I give you a guest account on Linux you have to find a true extra flaw to get deeper. | Jun 14 06:22 |
| oiaohm | On windows once you are system user its all over _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:22 |
| oiaohm | system is higher than administator. | Jun 14 06:22 |
| _Mutex_ | I am not the one who is claiming I can get into windows or linux, oiaohm that was your trick. | Jun 14 06:23 |
| oiaohm | It can even delete windows from the harddrive while the machine is running. | Jun 14 06:23 |
| oiaohm | I am talking about hardness to take over complete system _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:23 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, and how do you propose to get system rights ?? | Jun 14 06:23 |
| oiaohm | rundll32 start a service it give it to you _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:23 |
| oiaohm | So just need something that gets me in the front door. | Jun 14 06:24 |
| _Mutex_ | keep in mind Windows has the SAME security level as SOME linux's but MOST linuxes dont meet that standard. | Jun 14 06:24 |
| oiaohm | Windows what secuiry. | Jun 14 06:24 |
| _Mutex_ | EAL4 is what im refering to if you choose to google it and get the facts. | Jun 14 06:24 |
| oiaohm | When every user can run rundll32 to give system user access. | Jun 14 06:24 |
| DaemonMDV | Windows is made to run untrusted content from anonymous internet sites | Jun 14 06:24 |
| oiaohm | NSA alteration is required to get EAL4 with windows. | Jun 14 06:24 |
| _Mutex_ | dont tell me, tell the people who evaluate system | Jun 14 06:25 |
| _Mutex_ | link pls, (as fud buster). | Jun 14 06:25 |
| DaemonMDV | who are paid by whom? | Jun 14 06:25 |
| oiaohm | Particularly replacement to the interfaces rundll32 talks to. | Jun 14 06:25 |
| _Mutex_ | ive heard that said several times, but ive yet to see the proof | Jun 14 06:25 |
| oiaohm | So users cannot break outside there rights. | Jun 14 06:25 |
| oiaohm | By the way lot of applications using rundll32 to lift a part to system rights to avoid triggering UAC. | Jun 14 06:26 |
| oiaohm | So windows is running more and more and more as the equal to root. | Jun 14 06:26 |
| oiaohm | So making it weaker. | Jun 14 06:26 |
| _Mutex_ | care to backup your 'facts;with you know proof ? | Jun 14 06:26 |
| DaemonMDV | IE is designed to run untrustworthy content | Jun 14 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | like XAML apps | Jun 14 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | through Silverlight | Jun 14 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | though that's hardly the worst part of IE | Jun 14 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | it's so hard to pick a facorite | Jun 14 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | *favorite | Jun 14 06:27 |
| DaemonMDV | between non-standard scripting languages to a plug in installer system that anyone can spoof | Jun 14 06:28 |
| oiaohm | So you don't read znet so did not see the notice about the back door around UAC not being fixed using rundll32 _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:28 |
| DaemonMDV | to passing dangerous ASF scripts to Windows Media Player? | Jun 14 06:28 |
| DaemonMDV | that's always fun | Jun 14 06:28 |
| _Mutex_ | again, you care to confirm your sweeping statements with some proof please ? | Jun 14 06:28 |
| oiaohm | Does very much more investagation to find that rundll32 allows a little more than it should _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:28 |
| _Mutex_ | otherwise I have to chalk it down to fud sorry | Jun 14 06:29 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: the fault I am talking has been the news. | Jun 14 06:29 |
| oiaohm | Have not even seen even a small bit of news about it. | Jun 14 06:29 |
| _Mutex_ | so how do you know then ? | Jun 14 06:29 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878 | Jun 14 06:30 |
| DaemonMDV | “There are a number of significant vulnerabilities in technologies related to the IE domain/zone security model, trust in and access to the local file system (Local Machine Zone), the Dynamic HTML (DHTML) document object model (in particular, proprietary DHTML features), the HTML Help system, MIME type determination, the graphical user interface (GUI), and ActiveX. These technologies are implemented as operating system compone | Jun 14 06:30 |
| DaemonMDV | are used by IE and many other programs to provide web browser functionality. These components are integrated into Windows to such an extent that vulnerabilities in IE frequently provide an attacker significant access to the operating system.” | Jun 14 06:30 |
| oiaohm | Work with clamav pulling appart viruses _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:30 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure someone know about the EAL4 windows "patches' you spoke about oiaohm | Jun 14 06:30 |
| DaemonMDV | the US government says IE is too insecure to use | Jun 14 06:30 |
| _Mutex_ | does anyone here know how to back up statements with facts ?? | Jun 14 06:31 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, Windows viruses can immediately go from user account code execution to Administrator-level whole-computer restructuring | Jun 14 06:31 |
| DaemonMDV | I just did | Jun 14 06:31 |
| _Mutex_ | assuming they get into your computer in the first place, and again I would be very interested in seeing you know actual facts. | Jun 14 06:32 |
| DaemonMDV | the US CERT said IE is insecure | Jun 14 06:32 |
| DaemonMDV | and can't be secured | Jun 14 06:32 |
| oiaohm | The holes I am talking about are basic security knowledge so I am just trying to work out how you don't here or know of them _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:32 |
| DaemonMDV | that's good enough for me all by itself | Jun 14 06:32 |
| oiaohm | EAL4: Methodically Designed, Tested, and Reviewed Does not require secuirty system to work. | Jun 14 06:33 |
| DaemonMDV | they basically said IE is poorly designed, and deeply rooted into Windows, and therefore when a vulnerability is exploited, it usually gives the attacker way more access to Windows than it should | Jun 14 06:33 |
| oiaohm | If your design has security system not working you can still pass EAL4 | Jun 14 06:34 |
| _Mutex_ | IF they are so commonas you state, it would be trivial for you to show the proof to backup your statements, lets you be disregared as FUDing | Jun 14 06:34 |
| DaemonMDV | they are common | Jun 14 06:34 |
| DaemonMDV | IE 6 has over 160 documented security holes | Jun 14 06:34 |
| DaemonMDV | IE 7 and 8 aren't doing much better considering how long they've been out | Jun 14 06:34 |
| _Mutex_ | IE 6 Hmm,, you know we're on 8 now right ?? | Jun 14 06:35 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah | Jun 14 06:35 |
| DaemonMDV | which isn't doing better | Jun 14 06:35 |
| DaemonMDV | it's only 2 months old and already has 8 holes | Jun 14 06:35 |
| DaemonMDV | IE y has 88 | Jun 14 06:35 |
| DaemonMDV | *IE 7 | Jun 14 06:35 |
| _Mutex_ | that link you posted was 2004 , hardly relevant in 2009 | Jun 14 06:35 |
| DaemonMDV | IE is too dangerous to use | Jun 14 06:35 |
| _Mutex_ | pulling ancient "facts" is not doing you any favors for you integrity. | Jun 14 06:36 |
| oiaohm | http://rixstep.com/2/20090318,00.shtml << many viruses depend on the rundll32 means to lift rights including the recent Conficker | Jun 14 06:36 |
| DaemonMDV | http://secunia.com/advisories/product/12366/ | Jun 14 06:36 |
| DaemonMDV | 84 holes | Jun 14 06:37 |
| oiaohm | Basically you have not been reading you virus reports _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:37 |
| DaemonMDV | 8 unpatched | Jun 14 06:37 |
| DaemonMDV | for IE 7 | Jun 14 06:37 |
| DaemonMDV | according to Secunia | Jun 14 06:37 |
| oiaohm | Its like a common door _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:37 |
| DaemonMDV | IE 8 is too new to tell, but it's not lookin good | Jun 14 06:37 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont have too, as I dont have any problems whatsoever with viruses, havent for years, for me . like MOST computer users its a NON-Issue. | Jun 14 06:37 |
| oiaohm | I want to write a virus yep code it to use rundll32 then I can I can do what ever I like to the system. | Jun 14 06:37 |
| _Mutex_ | its not I dont know, its just I dont care. Im secure, I defy you to break into my maching, and i have not seen a virus or malware or pop-up for years. | Jun 14 06:38 |
| oiaohm | The door should be shut after 10 years of reports over the problem. | Jun 14 06:38 |
| oiaohm | Or at least some form of control. | Jun 14 06:38 |
| oiaohm | UAC does not even control usage of rundll32 | Jun 14 06:38 |
| yuhong | Well, on rundll32 and UAC, in an UAC prompt you can expand to see the command line. | Jun 14 06:39 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft manager said UAC was a nag screen | Jun 14 06:39 |
| DaemonMDV | there to annoy people | Jun 14 06:39 |
| DaemonMDV | it's not a security tool | Jun 14 06:39 |
| yuhong | Well, UAC is basically fundementally the same as sudo. | Jun 14 06:39 |
| fewa | And microsoft programs can bypass it | Jun 14 06:39 |
| fewa | and do | Jun 14 06:39 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 06:39 |
| DaemonMDV | UAC is not | Jun 14 06:39 |
| DaemonMDV | "At the 2008 RSA security conference, Microsoft's David Cross was quoted as saying, 'The reason we put UAC into the platform was 'to annoy users. I'm serious.' The logic behind this statement is that it should encourage application vendors to eliminate as many unnecessary privilege escalations as possible by causing users to complain about all the UAC 'Cancel or Allow' prompts. Of course, they probably didn't expect that Microso | Jun 14 06:40 |
| DaemonMDV | instead get most of the complaints for training users to ignore meaningless security warnings." | Jun 14 06:40 |
| fewa | making third-party programs second-class citizens | Jun 14 06:40 |
| yuhong | Only that sudo has a timer so it nags people less. | Jun 14 06:40 |
| DaemonMDV | sudo doesn't allow improper access to anything | Jun 14 06:40 |
| oiaohm | sudo runs as a different user. | Jun 14 06:40 |
| DaemonMDV | UAC does | Jun 14 06:40 |
| oiaohm | policykit is being entered into Linux because sudo is a major secuirty problom. | Jun 14 06:41 |
| oiaohm | So if UAC is sudo its still crappy tech. | Jun 14 06:41 |
| _Mutex_ | I like UAC, its just another layer and just forms (a small) part of overall security, its hitting the return key, Um is no big deal.. honest | Jun 14 06:41 |
| _Mutex_ | so is sudo crappy tech ? | Jun 14 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | UAC doesn't add any security | Jun 14 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | but if you like to click pointless pop ups | Jun 14 06:41 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, obviously you have no care for well designed interfaces | Jun 14 06:41 |
| DaemonMDV | good | Jun 14 06:41 |
| oiaohm | sudo does not provide fine enough controls. | Jun 14 06:41 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, and like snakeoil | Jun 14 06:42 |
| _Mutex_ | ok whatever. it does but I wont argue with you | Jun 14 06:42 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, to be told you are safe | Jun 14 06:42 |
| oiaohm | policykit provides lot finer controls over user. | Jun 14 06:42 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont have to be told i am safe, I KNOW I am. | Jun 14 06:42 |
| DaemonMDV | http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2008/04/vistas-uac-security-prompt-was-designed-to-annoy-you.ars | Jun 14 06:42 |
| yuhong | Maybe sudo is just as crappy, but I am mentioning this because not as many complain about sudo prompts. | Jun 14 06:42 |
| fewa | policy kit along with MACs are very good | Jun 14 06:42 |
| _Mutex_ | not as many use sudo | Jun 14 06:42 |
| yuhong | On the other hand sudo does have a timer, while UAC don't. | Jun 14 06:42 |
| fewa | and Microsoft pretends UAC is original | Jun 14 06:43 |
| oiaohm | UAC left out advnatage of policykit. | Jun 14 06:43 |
| fewa | while it is a wholesome ripoff of age-old UNIX technology | Jun 14 06:43 |
| oiaohm | The means to remember what applications are permitted to do what. | Jun 14 06:43 |
| yuhong | Despite sudo requiring a password by default. | Jun 14 06:43 |
| DaemonMDV | "Microsoft's approach to UAC is a carrot-and-stick way to get developers to adopt Microsoft's latest views on secure application installation and setup, but it does come at the expense of the user experience. It's hardly no surprise, then, that one of the most popular post-Vista install activities is disabling UAC. " | Jun 14 06:43 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont care if its original or not, gosh its just a tiny part of a much larger thing, and certainly not anything to bother waisting brain power thinking about. | Jun 14 06:43 |
| fewa | IE snakeoil | Jun 14 06:43 |
| _Mutex_ | we least I dont | Jun 14 06:43 |
| oiaohm | policykit is years ahead of sudo. | Jun 14 06:43 |
| yuhong | If you can change group policy, UAC can be set to do the same prompting for password however. | Jun 14 06:43 |
| DaemonMDV | doesn't help you if the malware bypasses the elevation in the first place | Jun 14 06:44 |
| DaemonMDV | which a lot of it does | Jun 14 06:44 |
| DaemonMDV | only legitimate apps trigger UAC | Jun 14 06:44 |
| DaemonMDV | because only they play by the rules :) | Jun 14 06:44 |
| fewa | UAC is fear-mongering and _Mutex_ knows it | Jun 14 06:44 |
| DaemonMDV | UAC is like the honor system for malicious software | Jun 14 06:44 |
| yuhong | How does malware bypass UAC? | Jun 14 06:45 |
| oiaohm | rundll32 flaw need to be closed to remove elevation flaw. That effectively renders UAC and the rest of windows secuirty useless. | Jun 14 06:45 |
| _Mutex_ | whats fear mongering ? | Jun 14 06:45 |
| oiaohm | rundll32 yuhong | Jun 14 06:45 |
| _Mutex_ | me saying im safe how will that instill fear in you ? | Jun 14 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | rundll32 runs a dll as an application | Jun 14 06:45 |
| _Mutex_ | Are you scared because I have a secure system ? | Jun 14 06:45 |
| oiaohm | Same with many other applications that want to do UAC operations. | Jun 14 06:45 |
| _Mutex_ | I find that amazing | Jun 14 06:45 |
| oiaohm | And don't want to ask users. | Jun 14 06:45 |
| yuhong | rundll32? I already said UAC lets you expand to see the command line. | Jun 14 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | lots of stuff can just bypass UAC, set up a rootkit | Jun 14 06:45 |
| DaemonMDV | then make the user unaware anything even happened | Jun 14 06:46 |
| DaemonMDV | as it turns their PC into a spam zombie | Jun 14 06:46 |
| oiaohm | Do you see very rundll32 call from an application. | Jun 14 06:46 |
| yuhong | The dll name rundll32 is trying to run will be in it's command line. | Jun 14 06:46 |
| oiaohm | You don't yuhong | Jun 14 06:46 |
| yuhong | What do you mean? | Jun 14 06:46 |
| oiaohm | The trap is in the wrong place. | Jun 14 06:47 |
| yuhong | Why? | Jun 14 06:47 |
| oiaohm | If you run it from cmd UAC catchs it. | Jun 14 06:47 |
| oiaohm | If you run rundll32 directly it don't. | Jun 14 06:47 |
| DaemonMDV | it's easier to just trojan your stuff in piggybacking on legit-looking software | Jun 14 06:47 |
| DaemonMDV | or preinfect the operating system disc image | Jun 14 06:47 |
| DaemonMDV | and put it on a file sharing site | Jun 14 06:48 |
| oiaohm | Simple fix really. | Jun 14 06:48 |
| yuhong | What? CMD contains only the invoker for UAC. | Jun 14 06:48 |
| oiaohm | Move the trap into the api rundll32 uses. | Jun 14 06:48 |
| oiaohm | So not allowing application to ship with own version of rundll32. | Jun 14 06:48 |
| _Mutex_ | assuming anyone is stupid enough to download and run unknown software, and if you do so, you deserve everything you get for stupidity. | Jun 14 06:48 |
| yuhong | Which is LoadLibrary. | Jun 14 06:48 |
| oiaohm | Yep what would close door. | Jun 14 06:49 |
| oiaohm | Fairly simple to close really. | Jun 14 06:49 |
| oiaohm | Just wish MS would. | Jun 14 06:49 |
| yuhong | And unfortunately LoadLibrary do not create a process so it is impossible to elevate there. | Jun 14 06:49 |
| yuhong | The trap is actually in elevate.exe. | Jun 14 06:49 |
| oiaohm | There are other calls rundll32 does. | Jun 14 06:49 |
| yuhong | None of which create a process so that it would be impossible to put the trap there. | Jun 14 06:50 |
| yuhong | ShellExecute just invokes the trap, which is actually in elevate.exe. | Jun 14 06:50 |
| yuhong | Which is the one showing the UAC prompt. | Jun 14 06:51 |
| _Mutex_ | UAC for windll32 auto-elevation has been fixed | Jun 14 06:51 |
| oiaohm | Next to see if they fix the browser plugin lift. | Jun 14 06:52 |
| yuhong | CodeProject has a good, detailed description of the UAC elevation process. | Jun 14 06:52 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot if little lift points that need fixing. | Jun 14 06:52 |
| yuhong | http://www.codeproject.com/KB/vista-security/UAC__The_Definitive_Guide.aspx | Jun 14 06:53 |
| oiaohm | If MS can get them all shut they will reduce virus threat by a massive ammount. | Jun 14 06:53 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure if we went far enough back in history we can find millions of security problems in all operating systems, im sure if you searched for DOS viruses you would find them, does not mean they are ANYTING today, | Jun 14 06:53 |
| yuhong | If Linux don't compell MS to make Windows open source, ReactOS will eventually. | Jun 14 06:54 |
| _Mutex_ | I actually think after mono, MS will NEVER open source windows, and whats a reactOS, if its a windows clone explain how or why anyone would want to change ? | Jun 14 06:55 |
| oiaohm | People said the same about solarias from sun. _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:56 |
| yuhong | Because ReactOS is FOSS unlike Windows. | Jun 14 06:56 |
| _Mutex_ | in fact after mono I wonder how many groups will be thinking long and hard about opening up there stuff, lest FOSS decide they are not "one of us". | Jun 14 06:56 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, but what is it, a windows knockoff ? | Jun 14 06:57 |
| oiaohm | Linux Unix knockoff forced solarias a UNIX open source _Mutex_ | Jun 14 06:57 |
| yuhong | Well, Mono was only a problem after the MS-Novell deal. | Jun 14 06:58 |
| oiaohm | Mono is poor performance does not help its case to use it. | Jun 14 06:58 |
| oiaohm | Its like VB of all. | Jun 14 06:58 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, thats right Linux based on UNIX caused UNIX to be open, not windows. oranges and bananas | Jun 14 06:58 |
| yuhong | On OpenSolaris, I dug out this. | Jun 14 06:58 |
| yuhong | http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/what_we_did | Jun 14 06:58 |
| oiaohm | Put reactos were Linux is against windows. | Jun 14 06:59 |
| _Mutex_ | and solaris still have a proprietary version | Jun 14 06:59 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 14 06:59 |
| oiaohm | Really there is nothing closed in the proprietary version. | Jun 14 06:59 |
| _Mutex_ | people will never change to something that is ONLY JUST AS GOOD, or not quite as good as they are allready using, its just how people are. | Jun 14 06:59 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 14 06:59 |
| _Mutex_ | its still proprietary | Jun 14 06:59 |
| oiaohm | Linux does does not 100 percent tech beat solarias. | Jun 14 07:00 |
| oiaohm | Yet it has broken most of solarias market. | Jun 14 07:00 |
| oiaohm | Reactos to windows where Linux was compared to solarias was in 1993 | Jun 14 07:01 |
| _Mutex_ | Im sorry "linux does does not 100 percent tech beat salarias" is confusing me. im not real bright :) | Jun 14 07:01 |
| oiaohm | Container tech and internal debuging solarias still beats Linux cleanly _Mutex_ | Jun 14 07:01 |
| _Mutex_ | so solaris is better than linux ? | Jun 14 07:02 |
| oiaohm | For particular workloads. | Jun 14 07:02 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh ok | Jun 14 07:02 |
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| oiaohm | If you have 100 percent tech beaten something there are no advantages left. | Jun 14 07:02 |
| yuhong | Solaris is also better if you have to run old Unix apps that used STREAMS. | Jun 14 07:03 |
| yuhong | Correct. | Jun 14 07:03 |
| oiaohm | Less than a 100 percent tech beaten is a good enough beat. | Jun 14 07:03 |
| yuhong | Since it is derived from SVR4. | Jun 14 07:03 |
| oiaohm | Linux has beaten solarias by being good enough most of the time. | Jun 14 07:03 |
| _Mutex_ | except for the end user who will never downgrade or even sidegrade, | Jun 14 07:03 |
| _Mutex_ | its upgrade or nothing | Jun 14 07:03 |
| oiaohm | Same is true in the solaris camp _Mutex_ | Jun 14 07:04 |
| oiaohm | You are talking less than 1 percent of the market is that true for _Mutex_ | Jun 14 07:04 |
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| yuhong | In fact, sockets was implemented on top of streams in opensolaris until recently. | Jun 14 07:04 |
| _Mutex_ | thats why I said any OS that wants to displace windows has to be better than windows by a large enough marging to make people willing to change for the extra features | Jun 14 07:05 |
| oiaohm | No | Jun 14 07:05 |
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| oiaohm | Apple and solarias have both be displaced by worse. | Jun 14 07:05 |
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| oiaohm | Cost is a factor _Mutex_ | Jun 14 07:05 |
| _Mutex_ | um, its just the way it is, its called human nature, and if you dont believe just look at Linux market penetration to date. | Jun 14 07:05 |
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| _Mutex_ | its a minimal factor. | Jun 14 07:05 |
| oiaohm | If Linux crosses the good enough level against windows it can start major displacements. | Jun 14 07:05 |
| oiaohm | Reactos can also start that. | Jun 14 07:06 |
| oiaohm | Sooner or latter MS will be displaced it will not be by something that is completely better | Jun 14 07:06 |
| _Mutex_ | what did i work out yesterday, WinXP cost me $1.57 per month amortized over the period of time I used it. | Jun 14 07:06 |
| _Mutex_ | less than a beer or a cup of coffee per month. | Jun 14 07:06 |
| _Mutex_ | In other words, nothing | Jun 14 07:06 |
| _Mutex_ | pocket change | Jun 14 07:06 |
| oiaohm | How much did the hardware cost you over the same time. | Jun 14 07:07 |
| yuhong | I think Linux should aim for when all the major OEMs offer it as an mainstream options, not just relegated to a niche area like Dell's Linux efforts are right now. | Jun 14 07:07 |
| _Mutex_ | im not going to (nor is anyone else) willing to downgrade or even change for the sake of $2bucks per month | Jun 14 07:07 |
| _Mutex_ | about the same | Jun 14 07:07 |
| oiaohm | This is the point it is heading to the point for that 2 bucks per month you can have 2 machines. | Jun 14 07:07 |
| yuhong | Of course not. | Jun 14 07:07 |
| oiaohm | A long time ago software was about 10 percent of the cost of the machine. | Jun 14 07:08 |
| oiaohm | Is now passing 50 percent. | Jun 14 07:08 |
| _Mutex_ | if you consider the various "components" of my PC, my RAM cost about $120, my HD about $120, my MD about $200, my OS about $120 and so on. | Jun 14 07:08 |
| oiaohm | You will see arm based machines hardware around the 200 dollar mark. | Jun 14 07:09 |
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| _Mutex_ | so all those components amortised over their life span means each component is still less than $2 each. | Jun 14 07:09 |
| _Mutex_ | including CPU, monitor, keyboards and so on. | Jun 14 07:09 |
| oiaohm | 200 dollar total machine cost. | Jun 14 07:09 |
| yuhong | Yep, MS was forced to offer discounts for netbooks and such. | Jun 14 07:09 |
| _Mutex_ | no read "EACH" | Jun 14 07:10 |
| oiaohm | I am refering to arm hardware _Mutex_ | Jun 14 07:10 |
| oiaohm | Not the hardware you have. | Jun 14 07:10 |
| oiaohm | Of course you leave out anti-virus and other software people buy. | Jun 14 07:11 |
| _Mutex_ | all im saying is, compared to all my system components, the OS (another system component) cost about same as any other single component, and based on that, there is no financial advantage gains in changing the OS component, unless its significantly better than what im presently using. | Jun 14 07:11 |
| oiaohm | I would simply love a arm laptop just on the grounds of battery life. For that I would not care about having windows. | Jun 14 07:11 |
| oiaohm | arm devices can truly do 10 hours under full load. | Jun 14 07:12 |
| oiaohm | 48 hours under general load. | Jun 14 07:12 |
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| oiaohm | Where a person with a normal laptop would be lucky to get 8 under light load _Mutex_ | Jun 14 07:13 |
| mib_yh98j3 | Mutex, your $2 a month is only a tiny bit of the real cost of Windows in our world... There's also the costs of our governments and schools paying Microsoft. The costs of spam spewing Windows machines and the costs of down time for the MANY quirky reasons that Windows stops working. But mostly the cost of true innovation being squelched by the fat, spoiled | Jun 14 07:13 |
| mib_yh98j3 | brat that likes to throw its weight around, and can only get friends if it buys them...then it stabs them in the back. Hmmph, $2 a month? I don't think so. | Jun 14 07:13 |
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| mib_yh98j3 | by the way, hi. Sorry to rant, but sometimes the things I read here make me peevish | Jun 14 07:14 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry I dont pay government or school fees, spam costs me nothing, i have zero downtime, my windows NEVER stops working, NEVER BSOD's, and I dont see an issue with innovation, at least its not based on a 40 year old OS, (I dont see that much innovation in doing something thats allready done). | Jun 14 07:16 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: I guess you use MS Office as well. | Jun 14 07:16 |
| oiaohm | And you did not include that in costs. | Jun 14 07:16 |
| oiaohm | Lot of people over 50 percent of there machine cost is software. | Jun 14 07:17 |
| _Mutex_ | not much, I mainly use C compilers, and embedded development tools, both proprietary and foss | Jun 14 07:17 |
| mib_yh98j3 | So, Mutex, you're okay with it as long as it's everyone else paying the toll | Jun 14 07:17 |
| _Mutex_ | therefore I mostly use (FOSS) textpad for workprocessing, as it have highlighting | Jun 14 07:17 |
| yuhong | My Windows PCs almost never BSoDs either. | Jun 14 07:17 |
| oiaohm | My Linux machine does not crash either. | Jun 14 07:18 |
| yuhong | They are pretty stable, and so is my Linux PCs. | Jun 14 07:18 |
| _Mutex_ | Um, its not my responsibility to dictate how others want to spend their money, and im quite sure its not yours either | Jun 14 07:18 |
| oiaohm | Yet I don't lie and say no linux crash. | Jun 14 07:18 |
| oiaohm | I know that mine is due to my hardware and my configuration. | Jun 14 07:18 |
| yuhong | OpenOffice can run on top of Windows as well. | Jun 14 07:18 |
| oiaohm | Is the reason my machine don't crash. | Jun 14 07:18 |
| _Mutex_ | no, ive used Linux and its crashed, but that was RH 7.2 and 10 years ago | Jun 14 07:19 |
| mib_yh98j3 | I'm not talking about your computers, I'm talking about costs worldwide, like the London Stock Exchange, hospitals | Jun 14 07:19 |
| oiaohm | I know that people running pulseaudio and compiz at the moment cause crashes. | Jun 14 07:19 |
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| _Mutex_ | at teh same time win95 being the piece of crap it was, used to die all the time, and so did you NT4 | Jun 14 07:19 |
| mib_yh98j3 | Military computer systems, etc. It costs ALL of us, and it needs to be addressed | Jun 14 07:19 |
| _Mutex_ | Or the FAA air traffic control system (oh wait thats linux). | Jun 14 07:20 |
| yuhong | Yep, 9x was crap. | Jun 14 07:20 |
| mib_yh98j3 | The FAA wasn't brought down by a stupid virus | Jun 14 07:20 |
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| _Mutex_ | sure was, that was acutally the golden age of linux, and here's why, Win95 could not handle more than 512 meg of RAM so if you had a h igh end machine and wanted a decent memory handler you had to go Linux. | Jun 14 07:21 |
| _Mutex_ | Numerous breaches of the FAA system over the past years and POST the RH install and take over of the legacy system. Its quite an interesting article | Jun 14 07:22 |
| _Mutex_ | RH was happy braggin about the $15 million saved by Linux, but are surprisingly quite about this issue, (I wonder why). | Jun 14 07:23 |
| yuhong | Or NT. | Jun 14 07:23 |
| yuhong | Yep, even 98 had to set the max vcache size in order to work with 1 GB. | Jun 14 07:23 |
| yuhong | NT never had this limit. | Jun 14 07:24 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, its was hopelless, and lots of people (including me) moved to linux. | Jun 14 07:24 |
| mib_yh98j3 | Mutex, because there is no "issue". For every Linux problem that's been long fixed, there are thousands of Windows problems that are sstill in the news | Jun 14 07:24 |
| _Mutex_ | and as I was working as a linux admin I had to know a bit about it, but its not hard, no os is. | Jun 14 07:24 |
| _Mutex_ | I like VMS the best, thats a nice ass OS. | Jun 14 07:25 |
| yuhong | HIGHMEM had to be added in order for Linux to address more than 1GB. | Jun 14 07:25 |
| _Mutex_ | reminds me of the old DOSHIGH days !! | Jun 14 07:25 |
| yuhong | In fact, even today GNU Mach still cannot address more than 1 GB. | Jun 14 07:25 |
| yuhong | In fact, NT kernel was derived from VMS. | Jun 14 07:26 |
| _Mutex_ | well the key developer of VMS was the lead developer of NT, but there is little similarity between the two, (unfortunately). | Jun 14 07:26 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 14 07:27 |
| _Mutex_ | if it had the VMS versioning file system, and the "just connect em together" to create a cluster, the ability to boot off multiple and distributed HD's the list is endless | Jun 14 07:27 |
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| _Mutex_ | what SMP, buy a hub and a few PC and build yourself a cluster, nothing else required. just link em up and away you go. | Jun 14 07:28 |
| yuhong | In the end, the developer of GNU Mach just decided to wait until it is ported to 64-bit. | Jun 14 07:28 |
| _Mutex_ | :) wow, thats a major copout :) | Jun 14 07:29 |
| yuhong | Addressing more than 1 GB of memory will be much easier with 64-bit. | Jun 14 07:29 |
| yuhong | PAE support was added, but only because of Xen. | Jun 14 07:29 |
| _Mutex_ | in theory it should not make any difference between 1 gig and 4 gig its still within 32 addresss space. | Jun 14 07:30 |
| _Mutex_ | but i know it does | Jun 14 07:30 |
| yuhong | I suggested to use the recently added PAE support to add NX support to GNU Mach. | Jun 14 07:30 |
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| yuhong | If they don't want to support more than 1 GB in GNU Mach. | Jun 14 07:31 |
| yuhong | The NX bit is only accessible in PAE mode. | Jun 14 07:31 |
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| yuhong | Even Windows had to enable PAE with physical addresses limited to 32-bit to enable NX support. | Jun 14 07:32 |
| yuhong | http://www.mail-archive.com/bug-hurd@gnu.org/msg16749.html | Jun 14 07:34 |
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| DaemonMDV | rhythmbox is the buggiest program ever | Jun 14 07:36 |
| DaemonMDV | my minimize to tray plugin is just gone | Jun 14 07:36 |
| fewa | DaemonMDV, meh i use it and it works | Jun 14 07:38 |
| fewa | for me it only crashes when i hibernate and it loses its audio pipe | Jun 14 07:39 |
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| DaemonMDV | Banshee 1.5 has a settings migrator that can import your Rhythmbox settings | Jun 14 07:59 |
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| Omar871 | Hello there? | Jun 14 08:30 |
| Omar871 | Guys, what is the easiest way to build animated web apps.? | Jun 14 08:31 |
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| Omar871 | By easiest, I also meant one that requires the shortest learning curve possible. | Jun 14 08:31 |
| chips_b_malroy | Are you still up Roy? | Jun 14 08:32 |
| chips_b_malroy | noticed you comment was why | Jun 14 08:32 |
| chips_b_malroy | Roy, its good you did not give those Linsuks shills any bandwidth, as they have some kind of agenda, most likely paid shills from MS | Jun 14 08:33 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Jun 14 08:34 |
| schestowitz | What's up? | Jun 14 08:34 |
| schestowitz | chips_b_malroy: they still get bandwidth | Jun 14 08:34 |
| schestowitz | Some of them are still in IRC | Jun 14 08:34 |
| Omar871 | chips_b_malroy: They're not only shills, they yap around like kids too. | Jun 14 08:34 |
| chips_b_malroy | not much, just my opinion. Roy I know you are against censorship. But my suggestion, and of course its only that. Is that bunch sounds just like the ones we fought with at MS Watch, goblin and I. | Jun 14 08:35 |
| chips_b_malroy | I would say that BN trys to provide an forum for free thinking | Jun 14 08:36 |
| chips_b_malroy | sadly, this does not always work. It only works when indivuals use the forum | Jun 14 08:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | not when an evil company uses paid shills to attack it | Jun 14 08:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | shillbombers, is what Marco called them on MS Watch | Jun 14 08:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | they floode the site with their trolling posts and filth | Jun 14 08:38 |
| chips_b_malroy | don't let them do that on your site, if you can prevent them | Jun 14 08:39 |
| kentma | it's what they're paid to do. They're the internet equivalent of hired thugs to beat people up. | Jun 14 08:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | while free speech is nice, yelling "fire" in a crowded threate has been proven crimal | Jun 14 08:39 |
| kentma | they have no morals. | Jun 14 08:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | true | Jun 14 08:39 |
| kentma | A sort of internet mafioso | Jun 14 08:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | a site therefore needs moderation or moderators, and rules | Jun 14 08:40 |
| kentma | sadly, this behaviuor is extremely common | Jun 14 08:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | No fllth, no threats, etc | Jun 14 08:40 |
| kentma | chips_b_malroy: maybe... the problem is, though - should we allow the thugs and criminals to prevent ordinary people from having free speech? | Jun 14 08:40 |
| _Mutex_ | trouble is, thats what free speach is all about, being able to state your opinion, regardless of whether you like it or not. | Jun 14 08:40 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: indeed so. some people abuse this privilege for financial gain, however. | Jun 14 08:41 |
| chips_b_malroy | on this channel, prehaps boot those who run away with the discussion (shillbomber). Just for this IRC channel | Jun 14 08:41 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey so, but thats their constitutional right to do so. | Jun 14 08:41 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: eh? where in magna carta is this mentioned? | Jun 14 08:42 |
| _Mutex_ | and not our position to judge or censor them for it... | Jun 14 08:42 |
| kentma | I have a copy of magna carta on my wall, and I can't see that bit... | Jun 14 08:42 |
| kentma | I can see bits about limiting the powers of monarchs... | Jun 14 08:42 |
| _Mutex_ | im sorry if your country does not have free speach, mine does :) | Jun 14 08:42 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: err, mine has, but it doesn't have the US constitution, matey boy. | Jun 14 08:43 |
| chips_b_malroy | This channel (IRC) is not the same thing as the comments on the site. This channel is to my thinking a group discussion of ideas to be presented to Roy in a helpful mannor. | Jun 14 08:43 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: the US constitution applies *to the US* and nowhere else. | Jun 14 08:43 |
| chips_b_malroy | So those who disrupt this IRC Mibbit channel, should be quickly booted and banned. But thats my thought. | Jun 14 08:44 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: which means it applies to a very small proportion of the population of the planet, and in a specifically and internationally agreed geography, and not one inch further. | Jun 14 08:44 |
| _Mutex_ | most western countries have their own version of free speech laws | Jun 14 08:44 |
| _Mutex_ | but this being a US site, in the US there is free speech laws.. | Jun 14 08:45 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: indeed so, however, speak not of US constitutional rights applying anywhere other than where tehy apply! | Jun 14 08:45 |
| _Mutex_ | i did not say "US" constitution | Jun 14 08:45 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: this is an IRC channel, and your arrogance is p*ssing me off. | Jun 14 08:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | No, its Roy's site, its a private site. And I know he wants to have it as free as possible. But all sites have some rules and someone who moderates. otherwise, the bad guys will run over you. | Jun 14 08:45 |
| _Mutex_ | fair enough, your free to say that, | Jun 14 08:45 |
| kentma | chips_b_malroy: exactly, it's Roy's site... | Jun 14 08:45 |
| _Mutex_ | not too many public web sites are private | Jun 14 08:46 |
| kentma | _Mutex_: how very generous of you. | Jun 14 08:46 |
| _Mutex_ | why thankyou :) | Jun 14 08:46 |
| chips_b_malroy | Yes, thats all I have to say Roy. That you do not need the troublemakers here on the IRC channel. let them post comments, if they must | Jun 14 08:46 |
| schestowitz | What should we do then? | Jun 14 08:48 |
| schestowitz | Deny entry? | Jun 14 08:48 |
| schestowitz | We can't deny comments | Jun 14 08:48 |
| schestowitz | We even allowed idiots like "a turn" whose comment is just "nigger" | Jun 14 08:48 |
| schestowitz | Shane has always been against comment moderation | Jun 14 08:48 |
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| chips_b_malroy | ban and boot, always have a moderator on the IRC channel to do that. Have rules posted on behavior in the IRC channel | Jun 14 08:48 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Jun 14 08:49 |
| schestowitz | Also, they can avoid breaking the rules | Jun 14 08:49 |
| schestowitz | It's not so simple | Jun 14 08:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | sort of like what they do on the linux user forums but not so much | Jun 14 08:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | ok, maybe not then | Jun 14 08:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | I can see where it would be a problem | Jun 14 08:50 |
| schestowitz | I guess the point that I make it that they know how to keep malicious presence | Jun 14 08:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | but look at it as another attack | Jun 14 08:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | like the ddos one | Jun 14 08:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | MS is most likely behind this one | Jun 14 08:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | you are getting to them, which is a good thing | Jun 14 08:51 |
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| maxstirner1 | Jun 14 08:51 | |
| maxstirner1 | weird | Jun 14 08:51 |
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| chips_b_malroy | they are not going give up, the battle only changes, the trolls will be back with new names | Jun 14 08:52 |
| oiaohm | Most of the trolls don't have arguments that stand up to inspection. | Jun 14 08:52 |
| chips_b_malroy | I fought them in my little small way at MS Watch, you fight the big fight for all of us | Jun 14 08:52 |
| schestowitz | Is Apple Watch alive? | Jun 14 08:53 |
| schestowitz | I mean, I think Ziffy Davy employed him for that too | Jun 14 08:53 |
| chips_b_malroy | Oiahm, what arguments did Linsux have that they said? | Jun 14 08:53 |
| chips_b_malroy | Apple Watch is dead last I seen | Jun 14 08:53 |
| chips_b_malroy | I read the logs | Jun 14 08:54 |
| chips_b_malroy | here | Jun 14 08:54 |
| schestowitz | I see that in the past week we average about 7000 unique IPs/day | Jun 14 08:54 |
| schestowitz | *ged | Jun 14 08:54 |
| schestowitz | So a lot of people get exposed to the stories, not the same people | Jun 14 08:54 |
| schestowitz | This can't be good to any of the companies covered | Jun 14 08:54 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu also took a blog for attritude re: Mono | Jun 14 08:54 |
| _Mutex_ | or lots of the same people with dynamic IP | Jun 14 08:54 |
| schestowitz | yes | Jun 14 08:55 |
| chips_b_malroy | so they fight u, same playbook as in MS Watch | Jun 14 08:55 |
| schestowitz | I know | Jun 14 08:55 |
| schestowitz | But you can't track it | Jun 14 08:55 |
| schestowitz | If people may consider other distros, then Ubuntu will look closer at Mono decisions | Jun 14 08:55 |
| chips_b_malroy | they cannot beat you logic and thinking, so they turn to | Jun 14 08:55 |
| _Mutex_ | its actually probably a fairly small value | Jun 14 08:55 |
| chips_b_malroy | evil | Jun 14 08:55 |
| schestowitz | Browsers used by visits | Jun 14 08:56 |
| schestowitz | Different browsers listed 10 | Jun 14 08:56 |
| schestowitz | Netscape/Mozilla 22155 (49.2%) | Jun 14 08:56 |
| schestowitz | Jun 14 08:56 | |
| schestowitz | Unknown 10342 (23.0%) | Jun 14 08:56 |
| schestowitz | Jun 14 08:56 | |
| schestowitz | Explorer 8518 (18.9%) | Jun 14 08:56 |
| schestowitz | Jun 14 08:56 | |
| _Mutex_ | gotta love that logic and thinking | Jun 14 08:56 |
| _Mutex_ | interesting :) | Jun 14 08:56 |
| schestowitz | [From the past few days] | Jun 14 08:56 |
| oiaohm | chips_b_malroy: linsux admin is a normal USA insane person. Thinking that freedom of speech allows everything and have lack of understanding what condone means. | Jun 14 08:57 |
| chips_b_malroy | How is Mono in the Debian and Ubuntu repo's? When they will not put the files in it to decript DVd's, play WMA (win32codecs) etc, because its non-free or scared to be sued. What is the difference with this and mono/moonlight? | Jun 14 08:57 |
| chips_b_malroy | its only good for suse | Jun 14 08:57 |
| chips_b_malroy | as in not a legal problem | Jun 14 08:57 |
| _Mutex_ | the difference is Mono is GPL | Jun 14 08:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | It has a GPL licence maybe, but that was a major mistake on someones part | Jun 14 08:58 |
| oiaohm | Better question is why does not debian enable anti-aliasing in freetype using apples patented code. | Jun 14 08:58 |
| _Mutex_ | that would be richard stallman then | Jun 14 08:59 |
| _Mutex_ | he approved it | Jun 14 08:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | you way off tract Oiahm | Jun 14 08:59 |
| oiaohm | mp3 play back is also gpl2 like mono _Mutex_ | Jun 14 08:59 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Jun 14 08:59 |
| _Mutex_ | then with that there is no problem either, GPL provies the necessary protection | Jun 14 08:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | try to stay on topic | Jun 14 08:59 |
| oiaohm | GPLv2 does not provide iron for sure patent protection. | Jun 14 09:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | GPL is just a licence | Jun 14 09:00 |
| _Mutex_ | according to the GPL is does, | Jun 14 09:00 |
| oiaohm | GPLv3 | Jun 14 09:00 |
| _Mutex_ | and 2 | Jun 14 09:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | it does not correct the underlying patents and licences that mono depends on. Its an legal question | Jun 14 09:00 |
| oiaohm | No GPLv2 wording suggest maybe it might. | Jun 14 09:00 |
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| oiaohm | GPLv3 there is no question about it _Mutex_ | Jun 14 09:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | like mp3, wma (win32codecs) and dvd playblack, mono is no differnet | Jun 14 09:01 |
| _Mutex_ | dont tell me i have to pull up the GPL again and post the relevant section here so you can see for yourself | Jun 14 09:01 |
| oiaohm | Pull them and I will rip gplv2 to bits. | Jun 14 09:01 |
| _Mutex_ | ok | Jun 14 09:01 |
| oiaohm | There are section in it that are not confirmed. | Jun 14 09:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | it might protect the user, but not the distro that speads mono in their repo's | Jun 14 09:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | Ubuntu can be sued | Jun 14 09:02 |
| _Mutex_ | whats not confirmed from the GPLv2 ? | Jun 14 09:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | when the time is right for MS | Jun 14 09:02 |
| oiaohm | That person building program gets any right to use patent. _Mutex_ | Jun 14 09:03 |
| oiaohm | That is not written into GPLv2 | Jun 14 09:03 |
| _Mutex_ | ? sorry what ? | Jun 14 09:03 |
| oiaohm | It is written into GPLv3 | Jun 14 09:03 |
| chips_b_malroy | they, Ubuntu put it in the repo, and on their disks already installed. And Ubuntu is a target, as they now make a commercial server version, or plan to. | Jun 14 09:04 |
| oiaohm | Just because you have the source and are allowed to build the application. Does not mean you have the right to use anything made using patented tech. | Jun 14 09:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | exactly | Jun 14 09:04 |
| oiaohm | GPLv3 include particular clause that you must grant those rights. | Jun 14 09:04 |
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| chips_b_malroy | u can relicence anything to another licence, but that does not make it legal | Jun 14 09:05 |
| chips_b_malroy | that will be decided in a court of law | Jun 14 09:05 |
| oiaohm | Just like one guy going to release RCU code under LGPL from Linux kernel. | Jun 14 09:06 |
| oiaohm | Had to be reminded even that it was his code it s IBM patent. | Jun 14 09:06 |
| chips_b_malroy | we are far far better without mono and moonlight in GNU Linux | Jun 14 09:06 |
| oiaohm | and IBM has only approved usage of that patent under GPL not LGPL. | Jun 14 09:06 |
| oiaohm | Patents are a bugger. | Jun 14 09:07 |
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| chips_b_malroy | the reason that MS is more of a legal firm than a software one | Jun 14 09:07 |
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| oiaohm | GPLv3 requires code providers to provide patents as required for people to use the program. | Jun 14 09:08 |
| chips_b_malroy | Bill learned from his Daddy | Jun 14 09:08 |
| oiaohm | MS really hates GPLv3 it threatens to undermine there patent game. | Jun 14 09:09 |
| chips_b_malroy | u have to fight Mono/moonlight on the patents issue | Jun 14 09:09 |
| oiaohm | Most people point to Linux and say its the same as mono both are gplv2 but Linux developers are reminded quite often who's patent effects what section of code. | Jun 14 09:10 |
| chips_b_malroy | it needs to be treated as a lawsuite issue, just like dvd, mp3, and wma playblack, a seperate repo in an overseas country not affected. That way u win | Jun 14 09:10 |
| chips_b_malroy | nobody will install the malware that way | Jun 14 09:10 |
| oiaohm | Big issue with Mono is MS is not really that forth coming on what is patented. | Jun 14 09:10 |
| chips_b_malroy | mono that is | Jun 14 09:10 |
| chips_b_malroy | if MS wanted us to have it, they would say so, and make it 100% no doubt legal, which they have not done. It fact they sued Tom Tom for Fat32. | Jun 14 09:12 |
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| oiaohm | Other thing that was strange before MS sued Tomtom was using mono internally. | Jun 14 09:12 |
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| chips_b_malroy | its only legal for Suse. And only for 5 years from when their hidden agreement was signed | Jun 14 09:12 |
| oiaohm | Now tomtom is converting to C++ | Jun 14 09:12 |
| oiaohm | I keep on forgeting when that agreement goes by by. | Jun 14 09:13 |
| chips_b_malroy | guessing another 3 years | Jun 14 09:13 |
| oiaohm | 28 March 2007 It has to be before then. | Jun 14 09:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | While Debian has Mono in their repo's, i cannot understand why? They think they cannot be sued because they are non-profit?? They are wrong. | Jun 14 09:15 |
| oiaohm | So a little under 3 years. | Jun 14 09:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | MS will go after them | Jun 14 09:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | Most likely the time that MS will sue many | Jun 14 09:15 |
| oiaohm | 2012 | Jun 14 09:15 |
| _Mutex__ | RMS does not seem to think so, | Jun 14 09:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | MS be in big trouble by 2012 | Jun 14 09:16 |
| _Mutex__ | that they can be suid | Jun 14 09:16 |
| _Mutex__ | what h appens in 1212 ? | Jun 14 09:16 |
| oiaohm | By 2012 MS could be completely despreate _Mutex__ | Jun 14 09:16 |
| _Mutex__ | how come ? | Jun 14 09:16 |
| oiaohm | Bit like SCO was a few years back. | Jun 14 09:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | At some point when things get worse for the Borg, expect them to sue their users, you know the pirates | Jun 14 09:17 |
| oiaohm | A fit company does not start killing departments _Mutex__ | Jun 14 09:17 |
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| chips_b_malroy | not if they really a long term company still making billions of profits, which is what they say | Jun 14 09:18 |
| _Mutex__ | every smart company will kill departments if they are not profitable, thats normal business, even in FOSS. | Jun 14 09:19 |
| oiaohm | Normally not kill. Most companies that are doing well restruct not kill. | Jun 14 09:19 |
| oiaohm | Ie end one department start a new to go into another field. | Jun 14 09:20 |
| _Mutex__ | its the ones that resist change that die, ask chrisler or GM | Jun 14 09:20 |
| oiaohm | MS currently has just been killing departments. | Jun 14 09:20 |
| oiaohm | With no replacements. | Jun 14 09:20 |
| oiaohm | That is not a sign of a company going well. | Jun 14 09:20 |
| _Mutex__ | yes, lots of companies do that all the time, especially when times are a bit hard, (sort of like NOW). | Jun 14 09:21 |
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| oiaohm | What hit them _Mutex__ | Jun 14 09:21 |
| _Mutex__ | what hit MS ? | Jun 14 09:21 |
| DaemonMDV | oiaohm: You must have been right about Firefox hitting a bunch of Linux kernel bugs | Jun 14 09:21 |
| oiaohm | MS has been dumping product to take back netbook and block markets to convert. | Jun 14 09:21 |
| chips_b_malroy | They will move most of their operations to India soon, and maintain the corporate headquarters in USA as long as possible, in order to maintain the illusion that they are an American company. | Jun 14 09:21 |
| DaemonMDV | I just switched from Linux 2.6.29 to 2.6.30 and re-ran Peacekeeper | Jun 14 09:22 |
| DaemonMDV | Firefox went from 820 to 1004 | Jun 14 09:22 |
| DaemonMDV | still not great, but lots better | Jun 14 09:22 |
| DaemonMDV | at least it beats IE on Windows again :P | Jun 14 09:22 |
| chips_b_malroy | shillbombers need to go | Jun 14 09:22 |
| oiaohm | Its still hitting all the X11 bugs as well DaemonMDV | Jun 14 09:22 |
| DaemonMDV | heh, my only problem with Opera is it doesn't feel right | Jun 14 09:23 |
| DaemonMDV | in GNOME | Jun 14 09:23 |
| DaemonMDV | it feels much more native in KDE | Jun 14 09:23 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex__ the downturn really did not hit MS. MS did. | Jun 14 09:23 |
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| oiaohm | Dumping product means you have less true sales. | Jun 14 09:23 |
| DaemonMDV | well, since it really doesn't cost Microsoft anything to give Windows away | Jun 14 09:23 |
| DaemonMDV | and those people would have used Linux | Jun 14 09:24 |
| _Mutex__ | what you mean the almost world wide recession did not hit a consumer company like MS that sells to the general public, that does not have any money these days | Jun 14 09:24 |
| DaemonMDV | it's really not any lost money to Microsoft | Jun 14 09:24 |
| DaemonMDV | it's a customer that's hooked when they can pay | Jun 14 09:24 |
| chips_b_malroy | Seven will only sell on OEM new sales, it still Vista and is entirely new machine depentant. | Jun 14 09:24 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex__: how could Linux sales go up. | Jun 14 09:24 |
| oiaohm | Both are selling to consumers. | Jun 14 09:24 |
| oiaohm | Australia and quite a few other countries are not in recession. | Jun 14 09:25 |
| chips_b_malroy | This MS does not seem to understand, there will be no bump in sales from the release of Seven, if the recession has not slowed | Jun 14 09:25 |
| _Mutex__ | oiaohm, I have no idea, but I would expect that not too many Linux'es are actually "SOLD". | Jun 14 09:25 |
| oiaohm | There are more being sold at moment. | Jun 14 09:25 |
| chips_b_malroy | what, 4 million people in Australia? | Jun 14 09:25 |
| _Mutex__ | time will tell on that one, | Jun 14 09:25 |
| oiaohm | Even novell Linux section sold more. | Jun 14 09:25 |
| oiaohm | Since the downturn started. | Jun 14 09:26 |
| _Mutex__ | 23 million , close :) | Jun 14 09:26 |
| chips_b_malroy | k | Jun 14 09:26 |
| oiaohm | Novell recored a nice 25% growth in there Linux department. | Jun 14 09:26 |
| _Mutex__ | at the present time australia is the strongest economy in the western world, we had growth last quarter so we are not in an official recession | Jun 14 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Redhat as recorded almost 200% | Jun 14 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Something is wrong. | Jun 14 09:27 |
| _Mutex__ | over what period of time ? | Jun 14 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Last 3 months. | Jun 14 09:27 |
| _Mutex__ | 200% in 3 months ?? | Jun 14 09:27 |
| oiaohm | IBM income has stayed level. | Jun 14 09:28 |
| oiaohm | MS departments dropped. Linux deparments went up. | Jun 14 09:28 |
| chips_b_malroy | is it at the end of this month that MS comes out with another finical quarter? | Jun 14 09:28 |
| _Mutex__ | but relatively speeking based on size of profit and turnover, RH is still way way down there. | Jun 14 09:29 |
| _Mutex__ | and you say RHEL rose 200% in 3 months ? | Jun 14 09:29 |
| oiaohm | RHEL has basically been in record sales since the down turn started. | Jun 14 09:29 |
| chips_b_malroy | any predictions of that MS quarter coming up? While I would not wish their employees bad, I predict further layoffs. Things are not getting better here in the USA | Jun 14 09:30 |
| oiaohm | The downturn has not effect everyone _Mutex__ | Jun 14 09:30 |
| oiaohm | Only selected companies have been hammered. | Jun 14 09:31 |
| chips_b_malroy | and its not the same in all areas of the USA as well | Jun 14 09:31 |
| _Mutex__ | mabey give me a minute to confirm | Jun 14 09:31 |
| chips_b_malroy | expect more cutting of programs, expect more layoffs soon at MS | Jun 14 09:32 |
| chips_b_malroy | coming soon this quarter | Jun 14 09:32 |
| oiaohm | MS has hit themselves. | Jun 14 09:32 |
| chips_b_malroy | Vista DRM is a dog, buyers resisted it | Jun 14 09:33 |
| oiaohm | MS got use to living off high profits per item. | Jun 14 09:33 |
| chips_b_malroy | Seven will not be much better as it is Vista | Jun 14 09:33 |
| _Mutex__ | thats why there is only 180 million vista licenses in the wild i guess. | Jun 14 09:33 |
| chips_b_malroy | Linux and Mac are cutting into desktop market share now | Jun 14 09:33 |
| oiaohm | MS has been desporate to kill netbook linux's so they can lift windows price. | Jun 14 09:34 |
| oiaohm | Now Linux's entering again with smartbooks. | Jun 14 09:34 |
| chips_b_malroy | Roy, see, Mutex, shillbomber | Jun 14 09:34 |
| chips_b_malroy | offers little to discussion | Jun 14 09:34 |
| _Mutex__ | chips ?? why is that, Do I ask too many logical questions and ask for too many facts for you ? | Jun 14 09:35 |
| _Mutex__ | whats your problem ? | Jun 14 09:35 |
| oiaohm | 180 million licences is really not that many when you wake up Volume licences using XP downgrade mode is counted in that number. | Jun 14 09:35 |
| _Mutex__ | mabey not that many, but Canicial states they have 10 million ubuntu's out there, so its a bit more than that, for a failure its "seems" quite popular. | Jun 14 09:36 |
| oiaohm | And anyone on software as a service still running XP also got counted. | Jun 14 09:36 |
| oiaohm | So real numbers of vista are way less. | Jun 14 09:36 |
| _Mutex__ | no, this is Vista licenses sold, no xp licenses | Jun 14 09:36 |
| oiaohm | Vista licence on volume. | Jun 14 09:37 |
| oiaohm | You get sent out xp key and disks as well. | Jun 14 09:37 |
| oiaohm | So you don't order XP of course to be correct its not even on the list. | Jun 14 09:37 |
| _Mutex__ | how ever you count it , there are at least 180 vista's running on peoples computers, | Jun 14 09:37 |
| _Mutex__ | million | Jun 14 09:37 |
| oiaohm | 180 million licence sold. | Jun 14 09:37 |
| oiaohm | Not 180 million running copies. | Jun 14 09:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | XP sales are counted as Vista sales, this is what you are saying oiaohm | Jun 14 09:38 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 14 09:38 |
| chips_b_malroy | true | Jun 14 09:38 |
| _Mutex__ | 1 year ago RHT was $22 and today they are $21 | Jun 14 09:38 |
| chips_b_malroy | downgrade rights | Jun 14 09:38 |
| _Mutex__ | NO they are NOT, sorry, this is a count of VISTA licenses NOT XP licenses. geezz. | Jun 14 09:38 |
| oiaohm | There is no difference between a Vista licence and a XP licence if you are build. | Jun 14 09:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | you see, Mutex is a MS shill, because he only argues the MS position | Jun 14 09:39 |
| oiaohm | You buy a vista user wants XP you use downgrade rights. | Jun 14 09:39 |
| oiaohm | of vista to install it for customer. | Jun 14 09:39 |
| _Mutex__ | C'mon this is a COUNT OF VISTA's sold end of story, dont change the facts to fit your idea | Jun 14 09:39 |
| oiaohm | so you don't have to try to remove the Vista licence sticker. | Jun 14 09:39 |
| oiaohm | It a count of windows licence sold that can install up to vista _Mutex__ | Jun 14 09:40 |
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| _Mutex__ | NOT ITS NOT, | Jun 14 09:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | mostly in some ways, you buy Vista and XP, so MS sells twice | Jun 14 09:40 |
| oiaohm | Just like you can use XP licences to install 98 se. | Jun 14 09:40 |
| _Mutex__ | Its a count of the number of VISTA operating systems sold,, Geezz.. | Jun 14 09:40 |
| oiaohm | It a count of vista licences. | Jun 14 09:40 |
| _Mutex__ | Its a count of VISTA OS's | Jun 14 09:40 |
| oiaohm | Problem not all machines with vista license are running vista from factory. | Jun 14 09:41 |
| _Mutex__ | would you like me to link it for you so you can see for yourself ?? | Jun 14 09:41 |
| oiaohm | The ones you buy from dell with Xp on most times they are vista licences. | Jun 14 09:41 |
| oiaohm | Not XP licences. | Jun 14 09:41 |
| oiaohm | Make it simpler for them. | Jun 14 09:41 |
| _Mutex__ | does NOT matter, MS got the money for the OS, its just like you saying Ununtu has 10 million users or 5 millino who downloaded it twice | Jun 14 09:41 |
| chips_b_malroy | You see Roy, its like you told Goblin, why feed the shills? But yet you are doing so in this IRC channel. | Jun 14 09:41 |
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| oiaohm | Lot of Linux people also buy machine with windows on. | Jun 14 09:42 |
| _Mutex__ | sure chops is see facts are not your stong suit | Jun 14 09:42 |
| oiaohm | Reason they are cheeper than withotu windows on. | Jun 14 09:42 |
| oiaohm | Because dell and others offset cost of windows with crapware. | Jun 14 09:42 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft counts sales of XP systems as Vista purchases that were "downgraded" | Jun 14 09:43 |
| oiaohm | That they get paid to install on the machines. | Jun 14 09:43 |
| DaemonMDV | then reports Vista sales | Jun 14 09:43 |
| DaemonMDV | ;) | Jun 14 09:43 |
| _Mutex__ | NO THEY DONT im sorry but this time you are flat out wrong wrong wrong sorry, | Jun 14 09:43 |
| oiaohm | You can get a total of 200 dollars back from installing crap on machines. | Jun 14 09:43 |
| chips_b_malroy | depends on the krap | Jun 14 09:43 |
| oiaohm | All those trials and demos of stuff you get on new machines the maker is being paid. | Jun 14 09:43 |
| oiaohm | They don't put them on there for free. | Jun 14 09:44 |
| chips_b_malroy | MS Office trial and Norton or McAffee antivirus, krapware that pays the most | Jun 14 09:44 |
| chips_b_malroy | 1 to 3 months | Jun 14 09:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | not worth the hassle to remove, which is not always easy | Jun 14 09:45 |
| oiaohm | Also my downloads of distributions same with most australian would not turn up on Ubuntu count. | Jun 14 09:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | maybe some wild tangent games, (infected sometimes as well) | Jun 14 09:46 |
| oiaohm | For the simple reason I download them from my local filemirror that don't count to my quota. | Jun 14 09:46 |
| _Mutex__ | anyone stupid enough to use norton or mcaffee needs to be shown how to secure ANY OS is 5 minutes, free, with basically zero overhead | Jun 14 09:46 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex__: OEM's put them there not for customer but because they get paid | Jun 14 09:46 |
| chips_b_malroy | no, they do get paid | Jun 14 09:47 |
| oiaohm | Its about 20 dollars to install a trial version of nortons or mcaffee | Jun 14 09:47 |
| _Mutex__ | I guess some do, the stupid ones. | Jun 14 09:47 |
| oiaohm | And about 25 dollars if you buy a full version. | Jun 14 09:47 |
| chips_b_malroy | but they don't call it krapware for nothing | Jun 14 09:48 |
| chips_b_malroy | better off with a fresh install, but wait, dosen't MS only give u 3 installs now? | Jun 14 09:48 |
| oiaohm | Also you would notice dell don't provide standard vista or xp disk to do a clean restore with. | Jun 14 09:49 |
| _Mutex__ | only 3 installs ? yea right | Jun 14 09:49 |
| oiaohm | So any time you reinstall you get all the crapware back. | Jun 14 09:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | I think not | Jun 14 09:49 |
| oiaohm | 3 installs then you have ring MS to activate. | Jun 14 09:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | that is what the OEM's put | Jun 14 09:49 |
| schestowitz | ChanServ: just ignore shills | Jun 14 09:50 |
| _Mutex__ | or just get on the net like everyone else | Jun 14 09:50 |
| schestowitz | They chnage discussions | Jun 14 09:50 |
| schestowitz | to gpl bashin, vista... | Jun 14 09:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | I know someone who had to reinstall Vista 5 times b4 taking the laptop back and getting money back | Jun 14 09:50 |
| *schestowitz eats | Jun 14 09:50 | |
| chips_b_malroy | they refused to give new serial | Jun 14 09:50 |
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| chips_b_malroy | and user said it crashed because of their bad drivers | Jun 14 09:51 |
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| oiaohm | I am a registered system builder chips_b_malroy | Jun 14 09:51 |
| chips_b_malroy | never worked right, and user took it back (whole laptop) and got money back on all. | Jun 14 09:52 |
| oiaohm | So right quote MS number they unlock the bugger. | Jun 14 09:52 |
| oiaohm | I forget non regestered don't get that. | Jun 14 09:52 |
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| chips_b_malroy | you can also tell them it their problem, which it is, and demand, yell, and swear at them, on the 4th and 5th reinstall, which works too | Jun 14 09:53 |
| oiaohm | Bad drivers are a major pain for Linux or Windows. | Jun 14 09:53 |
| oiaohm | chips_b_malroy: mine simpler. | Jun 14 09:53 |
| chips_b_malroy | sure, but not anywhere as bad as Vista | Jun 14 09:53 |
| oiaohm | Just have to quote my system builder number. | Jun 14 09:53 |
| chips_b_malroy | even XP had some driver problems, but not too bad | Jun 14 09:53 |
| oiaohm | and it very much ok unlocking now. | Jun 14 09:53 |
| oiaohm | Or emailing out new key. | Jun 14 09:54 |
| oiaohm | I love the emailing out new key bit. | Jun 14 09:54 |
| *DaemonMDV (n=ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 09:54 | |
| chips_b_malroy | this was all by phone | Jun 14 09:54 |
| DaemonMDV | hmmmm, thats odd | Jun 14 09:54 |
| DaemonMDV | on 2.6.30, I can't mount video DVDs | Jun 14 09:54 |
| oiaohm | By phone. | Jun 14 09:54 |
| DaemonMDV | but on 2.6.29, I can | Jun 14 09:54 |
| chips_b_malroy | the point being MS knew Vista was a problem, but still tryed to limit to 4 reinstalls | Jun 14 09:55 |
| chips_b_malroy | *3 | Jun 14 09:55 |
| oiaohm | Ok that is strange I just inserted Daredevil here and it mounted DaemonMDV | Jun 14 09:55 |
| *magentar (n=magentar@94.79.152.251) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 09:55 | |
| chips_b_malroy | and theres Damon off on another tagent | Jun 14 09:55 |
| DaemonMDV | want me to take screenshots? | Jun 14 09:56 |
| oiaohm | That something damon and me have been talking about chips_b_malroy | Jun 14 09:56 |
| DaemonMDV | it says invalid mount option and won't load the disc | Jun 14 09:56 |
| chips_b_malroy | k | Jun 14 09:56 |
| oiaohm | What is the video DaemonMDV | Jun 14 09:56 |
| DaemonMDV | I tried two discs | Jun 14 09:56 |
| _Goblin | hi all... | Jun 14 09:56 |
| DaemonMDV | non-video discs load fine | Jun 14 09:56 |
| chips_b_malroy | hi Goblin | Jun 14 09:56 |
| _Goblin | hi! | Jun 14 09:57 |
| *_Mutex__ is now known as _Mutex_ | Jun 14 09:57 | |
| chips_b_malroy | Must be early on the other side of the pond | Jun 14 09:57 |
| DaemonMDV | well, it's not like community provided kernels go through a quality control process | Jun 14 09:57 |
| DaemonMDV | that's why they're in Contrib | Jun 14 09:57 |
| DaemonMDV | so oh well | Jun 14 09:57 |
| _Mutex_ | 7:15 PM here Sunday | Jun 14 09:57 |
| chips_b_malroy | So Daemon, why did u, if you did, give up on Vista???? | Jun 14 09:58 |
| oiaohm | Ok my eject button unmount now works DaemonMDV | Jun 14 09:58 |
| DaemonMDV | cause PC Guy's flashy sign told me to | Jun 14 09:58 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 09:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | explain? if u can | Jun 14 09:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | so I can learn | Jun 14 09:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | wga get you? | Jun 14 10:00 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 10:00 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRAUlK8_2VE | Jun 14 10:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | no utube | Jun 14 10:00 |
| oiaohm | I build my own personally from source DaemonMDV | Jun 14 10:00 |
| _Mutex_ | why would you want to know what OS someone is using ? | Jun 14 10:00 |
| DaemonMDV | are you in Iran or something? | Jun 14 10:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | not letting u get off that easy | Jun 14 10:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | u a big windose fan, explain it to us | Jun 14 10:01 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: knowing what OS people are using is handy as a developer so you can fix problems in the one most users are using. | Jun 14 10:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | I would have accepted wga | Jun 14 10:01 |
| _Mutex_ | well you explain yourself for us first :) | Jun 14 10:02 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't have to deal with WGA even while in Vista | Jun 14 10:02 |
| _Mutex_ | what are you using and why ? | Jun 14 10:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | if u pirated it maybe | Jun 14 10:02 |
| DaemonMDV | my license turns it off | Jun 14 10:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | or cracked it | Jun 14 10:02 |
| DaemonMDV | the product activator also never crops up | Jun 14 10:02 |
| DaemonMDV | no matter what hardware I swap in or out | Jun 14 10:02 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 10:02 |
| _Mutex_ | wga never seen it , or drm for that matter | Jun 14 10:02 |
| DaemonMDV | SLP | Jun 14 10:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | explain | Jun 14 10:02 |
| oiaohm | My machine is a little strange. its part ubuntu part debian part fedora part centos at moment. | Jun 14 10:03 |
| oiaohm | And that is running at the current moment. | Jun 14 10:03 |
| chips_b_malroy | Daemon, and oiaohm, I still maintain XP for malware programs, as I fix windows computers from time to time. | Jun 14 10:04 |
| DaemonMDV | a SLIC/SLP license will turn Windows activation and WGA off | Jun 14 10:04 |
| DaemonMDV | the user never has to deal with them | Jun 14 10:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | its a CRACK | Jun 14 10:04 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 10:04 |
| DaemonMDV | it's a Gateway | Jun 14 10:04 |
| oiaohm | I normally deal with XP malware from Linux. | Jun 14 10:04 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 10:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | crack | Jun 14 10:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | OEM CRACK | Jun 14 10:04 |
| DaemonMDV | no, it's an OEM machine | Jun 14 10:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | what I said | Jun 14 10:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | Pirate | Jun 14 10:05 |
| _Mutex_ | I normally deal with XP malware saying "I dont have any, So now ill do something interesting" | Jun 14 10:05 |
| oiaohm | Not all users are smart _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:05 |
| oiaohm | As techs we see the idiots the most. | Jun 14 10:06 |
| _Mutex_ | thats true, | Jun 14 10:06 |
| _Mutex_ | yes we do I agree, | Jun 14 10:06 |
| oiaohm | I use to laugh about the coffee cup holder joke until I saw my first one. | Jun 14 10:06 |
| chips_b_malroy | most cannot update their antivirus, and let it lapse | Jun 14 10:06 |
| oiaohm | Sadly I still see it from time to time. | Jun 14 10:06 |
| chips_b_malroy | I see that all the time | Jun 14 10:06 |
| DaemonMDV | Paul Frields says the patent questions surrounding Mono unnerve them | Jun 14 10:06 |
| _Mutex_ | well my mom can update her AV software and install and run FF and she's 70 | Jun 14 10:07 |
| DaemonMDV | I think they just want to have an excuse to ditch competitors products | Jun 14 10:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | and, they cannot save their passwords | Jun 14 10:07 |
| DaemonMDV | if they were that concerned, Mono never would have been in Fedora to begin with | Jun 14 10:07 |
| DaemonMDV | much less lasted what, like 4-5 versions now? | Jun 14 10:07 |
| DaemonMDV | it's been there a while | Jun 14 10:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | Pirate Daemon is back without explanation I see | Jun 14 10:07 |
| _Mutex_ | but yes, i too have seen ancient Notons incredably out of date on some poor saps machine. | Jun 14 10:08 |
| DaemonMDV | you can't tell me that something with that many red flags didn't have Red Hat Legal wondering 3 years ago | Jun 14 10:08 |
| oiaohm | Define ancient. | Jun 14 10:08 |
| DaemonMDV | why suddenly worry about it? | Jun 14 10:08 |
| oiaohm | I had a customer coming in the other day wanting to install nortons 1.0 on XP. | Jun 14 10:08 |
| _Mutex_ | But still no problem, quick clean of crap, quick install of AVGFree, invoice customer, go home | Jun 14 10:08 |
| _Mutex_ | Job done | Jun 14 10:08 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, no shortage of work fixing Windows | Jun 14 10:08 |
| _Mutex_ | well there is alot of em | Jun 14 10:09 |
| DaemonMDV | if they ever got rid of Windows, thousands of jobs cleaning up after spyware would be lost | Jun 14 10:09 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 10:09 |
| DaemonMDV | perhaps tens of thousands | Jun 14 10:09 |
| _Mutex_ | not for me, every customer I attend is fixed, and fixed for good. | Jun 14 10:09 |
| DaemonMDV | entire industry dedicated to changing Windows' dirty diapers | Jun 14 10:09 |
| _Mutex_ | and yes, if they have similar problems I return call for free, (but I never have to do that). | Jun 14 10:10 |
| DaemonMDV | that's bullshit | Jun 14 10:10 |
| DaemonMDV | you're a parasite | Jun 14 10:10 |
| DaemonMDV | ripping off the ignorant and ill-informed | Jun 14 10:10 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey for you it is my 'friend' | Jun 14 10:10 |
| _Mutex_ | im sorry im me being good at my job offends you, (well actually im not) but I thought I would say that anyway | Jun 14 10:11 |
| DaemonMDV | you don't exactly do anything | Jun 14 10:11 |
| chips_b_malroy | you see oiohm, after a while you tire of fighting the shillbombers. Even after you corner one, that he cracked or pirated the OS, and he just changes the subject, as any MS Shill would. | Jun 14 10:11 |
| DaemonMDV | you take advantage of people | Jun 14 10:11 |
| _Mutex_ | I do whats needed to satisify the customer, I leave them with a working and secure OS and an inviation to call me should you have further problems | Jun 14 10:12 |
| DaemonMDV | Why don't you go file a fraudulant welfare claim or something | Jun 14 10:12 |
| DaemonMDV | at least that's one step up on the ethics ladder | Jun 14 10:12 |
| _Mutex_ | I provide a service THEY ask for and get, you know, its sort of what Red Hat does, but I guesss its ok for them right ? | Jun 14 10:12 |
| chips_b_malroy | Daemon does not understand what "free" software really is. He thinks pirating windows software is "free' software, but its not. | Jun 14 10:12 |
| _Mutex_ | Daemon thats a touch childish | Jun 14 10:13 |
| chips_b_malroy | It is free, but its not really free | Jun 14 10:13 |
| *DaemonMDV does not raid ships at sea, kill the crew and steal their Vista | Jun 14 10:13 | |
| *DaemonMDV has no idea what they are talking about | Jun 14 10:13 | |
| *DaemonMDV is confused | Jun 14 10:13 | |
| chips_b_malroy | explain please | Jun 14 10:13 |
| _Mutex_ | oh yea, I also maintained Linux systems as well, were they poor saps I was ripping off? | Jun 14 10:13 |
| oiaohm | Ok _Mutex_ how often does a correctly setup Linux box need work. | Jun 14 10:14 |
| DaemonMDV | if everything ran on Linux, 90% of his work would disappear | Jun 14 10:14 |
| _Mutex_ | quite often sometimes, | Jun 14 10:14 |
| oiaohm | Even if users are installing applications. | Jun 14 10:14 |
| chips_b_malroy | Anyway, Roy, I made my point, if you let the shillbombers run over the IRC channel, the other users will leave. | Jun 14 10:14 |
| DaemonMDV | assuming he even knows how to do anything other than install freeware antivirus | Jun 14 10:14 |
| oiaohm | I find very little _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:14 |
| DaemonMDV | and bill the customer $70 | Jun 14 10:14 |
| _Mutex_ | chops you have a problem with the truth ? | Jun 14 10:15 |
| _Mutex_ | or logic? | Jun 14 10:15 |
| oiaohm | You don't have the windows problem of slowing down over time. | Jun 14 10:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | nice you call me chops, on MS Watch they had close names | Jun 14 10:15 |
| oiaohm | With the Linux systems. | Jun 14 10:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | MS shill tatic | Jun 14 10:15 |
| DaemonMDV | oiaohm: You have to admit there has to be a better way to do settings than gconf files | Jun 14 10:16 |
| oiaohm | Linux systems normally slow down a little for about 4 months then they level off. | Jun 14 10:16 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry o and i are right next to each other, unfortunate typ0 | Jun 14 10:16 |
| DaemonMDV | but at least it's not a huge binary mass called a registry that's sensitize to paths changing | Jun 14 10:16 |
| DaemonMDV | and whatnot | Jun 14 10:16 |
| oiaohm | Registries not good either DaemonMDV. | Jun 14 10:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | the registary is terrible problem, the conf files in linux are far far superior | Jun 14 10:16 |
| oiaohm | gconf is not the woset or the best. | Jun 14 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | unless the power goes out | Jun 14 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | and it forgets to write them to disk | Jun 14 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | which Ext4 exposed | Jun 14 10:17 |
| chips_b_malroy | how about just conf as I use KDE | Jun 14 10:17 |
| oiaohm | And I have a lazy solution. | Jun 14 10:17 |
| _Mutex_ | what a huge bunch of blobs of text files are better the a BD ? mabey, but debatable | Jun 14 10:17 |
| DaemonMDV | well really XFS did, but more people were using Ext3 and got hit with that problem with Ext4 | Jun 14 10:17 |
| _Mutex_ | DB not bd | Jun 14 10:17 |
| oiaohm | There is a shell on my boxs that user selects and it copies defaults in. | Jun 14 10:17 |
| oiaohm | Or restores from last working backup. | Jun 14 10:18 |
| chips_b_malroy | Registary is also getting hosed with malware, or crashing so bad that windows cannot start | Jun 14 10:18 |
| oiaohm | gconf failure is not a major issue. | Jun 14 10:18 |
| chips_b_malroy | not an issure as conf only mostly affects indiviual programs in nix | Jun 14 10:19 |
| chips_b_malroy | regristray in windows is major problem | Jun 14 10:19 |
| _Mutex_ | does the registary do that does it, Hmm, never seen that before | Jun 14 10:19 |
| _Mutex_ | and ive seen alot of computers, | Jun 14 10:19 |
| chips_b_malroy | yes | Jun 14 10:19 |
| chips_b_malroy | google it | Jun 14 10:19 |
| oiaohm | I have even seen the complete directory that the registries should be in contain no files. | Jun 14 10:19 |
| _Mutex_ | Oh ok, mabey you need some lessons on Windows systems maintenance, oiaohm do you have lots of registary problems on your win boxes y ou fix. | Jun 14 10:20 |
| oiaohm | Because the crash lined up with the directory data write on ntfs. | Jun 14 10:20 |
| chips_b_malroy | lots of programs out there that claim to fix or recover corrupted/bad regristaries in windows | Jun 14 10:20 |
| chips_b_malroy | they cannot mostly | Jun 14 10:20 |
| oiaohm | I do data recovery _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:20 |
| oiaohm | I get the worst of the worst. | Jun 14 10:20 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, so do i, and I still have not seen it, I spent years working for a major bank in Aus over 800 branches, and we never had that problem on thousands of machines | Jun 14 10:21 |
| oiaohm | Most often registry repairs are cleaned up boy lowers. | Jun 14 10:21 |
| _Mutex_ | Actually contracting for IBM, maintaining the banking NT system. | Jun 14 10:22 |
| chips_b_malroy | Roy needs to weed out the Windows Shills and Linsux shills from this IRC channel | Jun 14 10:22 |
| oiaohm | XP _Mutex_ SP1 is known for it. | Jun 14 10:22 |
| _Mutex_ | and anyone you dont agree with ? | Jun 14 10:22 |
| DaemonMDV | Novell is now prioritizing Ubuntu packages | Jun 14 10:22 |
| DaemonMDV | for Banshee betas | Jun 14 10:22 |
| _Mutex_ | xp sp1, ?? why would you use that ? | Jun 14 10:22 |
| DaemonMDV | they get them and OpenSuse get them | Jun 14 10:22 |
| oiaohm | It is just more likely to do it _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:23 |
| _Mutex_ | sure. | Jun 14 10:23 |
| oiaohm | Its write order releated. | Jun 14 10:23 |
| oiaohm | Most cases it does not hit the registries. | Jun 14 10:23 |
| _Mutex_ | but it must be very very rare, im no spring chicken, ive been around the block a few hundred times, and its rare, i know it is | Jun 14 10:23 |
| oiaohm | You know the ones where folder was full and next day nothing. | Jun 14 10:23 |
| oiaohm | You run repair and files come back. | Jun 14 10:24 |
| oiaohm | As if nothing was wrong. | Jun 14 10:24 |
| chips_b_malroy | u think, always? LOL | Jun 14 10:24 |
| oiaohm | That every now and again it get the registry. | Jun 14 10:24 |
| oiaohm | So you cannot boot and windows installer will not repair. | Jun 14 10:24 |
| chips_b_malroy | I think windows is a way to hose up, sometimes it can run and boot up for 3 years, and other times, it boot for 3 months and crashes on same computer | Jun 14 10:25 |
| chips_b_malroy | but Linux just runs and runs | Jun 14 10:25 |
| chips_b_malroy | windows is just not stable, its like playing Russian Roulette | Jun 14 10:26 |
| oiaohm | I have only seen registry to the disappear without help twice once in 1999 with NT4 and 8 months ago with XP. | Jun 14 10:26 |
| chips_b_malroy | I have seem it many many times | Jun 14 10:26 |
| oiaohm | There are ways you can force it to happen. | Jun 14 10:26 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey, but I find its totally stable, makes me wonder what your doing wrong ? | Jun 14 10:26 |
| _Mutex_ | chips do you use windows regularly ? | Jun 14 10:27 |
| oiaohm | Also the chkdsk normally picks up the stuffed directories. | Jun 14 10:27 |
| chips_b_malroy | I don't jave the shill version | Jun 14 10:27 |
| _Mutex_ | or have you used it since win95 ? | Jun 14 10:27 |
| chips_b_malroy | I guess | Jun 14 10:27 |
| oiaohm | Most people who suffer from disappearing directories skip chkdsk | Jun 14 10:27 |
| chips_b_malroy | I stopped at xp | Jun 14 10:27 |
| _Goblin | Im unfortunately still using it (Vista) albeit at work. | Jun 14 10:28 |
| oiaohm | Defect hidden from view _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:28 |
| oiaohm | But it is a sitting time bomb. | Jun 14 10:28 |
| _Goblin | I've been with Windows since 3.1 | Jun 14 10:28 |
| _Mutex_ | so you have not used XP much either ? | Jun 14 10:28 |
| _Mutex_ | sp2 ? | Jun 14 10:28 |
| _Goblin | who me? | Jun 14 10:28 |
| _Mutex_ | chips | Jun 14 10:28 |
| _Goblin | ah | Jun 14 10:28 |
| oiaohm | Most of my recovery work is done on Linux _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:29 |
| chips_b_malroy | the regristary usually crashes from two things, malware, and bad sectors on the hard drives, but other things can crash it as well | Jun 14 10:29 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: something can appear stable but be repairing it self like mad in background. | Jun 14 10:30 |
| chips_b_malroy | Goblin, I am an old fart and go back, way back into the Dos days | Jun 14 10:30 |
| _Mutex_ | he's just saying Win is crashing on him all the time, this is NOT normal operation for windows xp and beyond at all, therefore you may be doing something wrong with your sys-admin or you just dont have any experience with a stable version of windows such as xp, vista or win7, but there is nothing wrong with not using them, but there is commenting on them, to people who know different | Jun 14 10:30 |
| oiaohm | I have XP run stable for a while. | Jun 14 10:31 |
| oiaohm | Major problem I run into as a system admin is slow down. | Jun 14 10:31 |
| _Mutex_ | me too, a little while like 8 years :) | Jun 14 10:31 |
| _Goblin | I go back to the DOS days, although I had an affair with the A500 and didn't really hit Windows until 3.1 | Jun 14 10:31 |
| chips_b_malroy | who said its crashing all the time? | Jun 14 10:31 |
| _Goblin | I believe my first real PC experience was with COBOL and Dbase IV | Jun 14 10:31 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh, you remember GOMF ?? i loved my a500 | Jun 14 10:31 |
| chips_b_malroy | I said it can, crash as often as three months | Jun 14 10:31 |
| _Goblin | great times... | Jun 14 10:32 |
| chips_b_malroy | Once got 3 years of heavy use out of XP | Jun 14 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Particular hardware combinations are particular bad for XP. | Jun 14 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Like the machine I have here. | Jun 14 10:32 |
| _Goblin | Ive just had a week of Netbook XP. | Jun 14 10:32 |
| oiaohm | I got motherboard for nothing because it was driving a tech in a business nuts. | Jun 14 10:32 |
| _Mutex_ | mine was disassembling machine code from a 2708 1K ROM which contained PIPBUG that was the "operationg system" for your 2K ram 1Mhz 2650 cpu and teletype I/O, and mid 1978 | Jun 14 10:32 |
| chips_b_malroy | I talking about the same hardware oiaohm | Jun 14 10:33 |
| oiaohm | Put XP on it you could almost bet inside 4 days it will not have a operational sound card. | Jun 14 10:33 |
| _Goblin | I think thats a little before my time... | Jun 14 10:33 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 14 10:33 |
| oiaohm | The machine was being uses to teach a multi media class. | Jun 14 10:33 |
| chips_b_malroy | Goblin, Dos 3.21 here started | Jun 14 10:33 |
| oiaohm | So you can guess how that was working. | Jun 14 10:33 |
| DaemonMDV | I've thought about trying the Ubuntu testing branch, but I've lived on that before | Jun 14 10:33 |
| _Goblin | is there anyone here under the age of 30? | Jun 14 10:34 |
| _Goblin | If not it makes me feel better. | Jun 14 10:34 |
| chips_b_malroy | Goblin, this stte is starting to look like MS Watch, sad | Jun 14 10:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux on it works perfectly not a single issue _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:34 |
| _Mutex_ | first "electronic" keyboard I had, i soldered the keys onto a piece of vero board, and hard wired it to the Chips address and data buss, then I had to assemble machine code to scan the keys and do the biz. | Jun 14 10:34 |
| _Goblin | which site? | Jun 14 10:34 |
| chips_b_malroy | BN | Jun 14 10:34 |
| oiaohm | A single batch of machine with windows can drive you up wall. _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:35 |
| _Goblin | really? In what way? you mean FUD comments? | Jun 14 10:35 |
| _Mutex_ | I have no issue with linux in some applications its the perfect tool for the job. | Jun 14 10:35 |
| _Goblin | * by others | Jun 14 10:35 |
| oiaohm | This machine is completely creative it uninstalls sound driver while its in use _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:35 |
| oiaohm | On XP and Vista. | Jun 14 10:35 |
| chips_b_malroy | you think I am too hard on them? | Jun 14 10:35 |
| oiaohm | Its some form of hardware glitch same model motherboard does not do the same thing _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:36 |
| chips_b_malroy | maybe, but I get tired of the FUD | Jun 14 10:36 |
| _Goblin | I don't think youre too hard...We are talking about IT so its not like its personal. | Jun 14 10:37 |
| _Mutex_ | chips, the way you fix that is to become informed, because facts arnt fud. | Jun 14 10:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | no, its not | Jun 14 10:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | *Goblin | Jun 14 10:38 |
| chips_b_malroy | its not personal | Jun 14 10:38 |
| oiaohm | Lot of large windows deployments using image installs to quicky recover the odd machine that goes strange with windows. | Jun 14 10:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | like with Daemon, it was pirated. The point was not to accuse him of being a pirate, which I could care less. The point was, its not really "free" software. | Jun 14 10:39 |
| oiaohm | Only things I ever pirated was dos and a few games. | Jun 14 10:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | beside the point | Jun 14 10:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | but honest anwser | Jun 14 10:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Even though its still in Beta, I'm very impressed with Chrome on Linux... | Jun 14 10:40 | |
| chips_b_malroy | 10 points | Jun 14 10:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | Chrome is fast fast | Jun 14 10:41 |
| chips_b_malroy | I respect honesty oialhm | Jun 14 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Most of the games I pirated I have bought since. | Jun 14 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Data recovery means I see lot of strange things. | Jun 14 10:42 |
| chips_b_malroy | only play a few games, seldom in fact | Jun 14 10:42 |
| oiaohm | 1 in a billion seams common. | Jun 14 10:42 |
| _Mutex_ | it is especially if you are the 1 :) | Jun 14 10:43 |
| oiaohm | I guess you have not see dell servers that you can reboot just by inserting a particular brand usb key. | Jun 14 10:43 |
| oiaohm | With windows 2003 | Jun 14 10:43 |
| chips_b_malroy | The point I was trying to make with Daemon, was he could not see the difference in "free" pirated windows and really "free" GNU/Linux | Jun 14 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Dud batch if usb controllers. | Jun 14 10:44 |
| chips_b_malroy | as both are free for Daemon and many windose users | Jun 14 10:44 |
| _Mutex_ | its the difference between free to steal and free to use, | Jun 14 10:44 |
| *DaemonMDV has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 14 10:45 | |
| oiaohm | And the difference between having to spend time paying for it. | Jun 14 10:45 |
| _Mutex_ | Ive got nothing against pirating, but like oiaohm i never find the necessity | Jun 14 10:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | but there is major differences, just like there is differences in the licences in the underlying Mono dependacies | Jun 14 10:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | good for u, Mutex | Jun 14 10:45 |
| oiaohm | In my mind most people are brats | Jun 14 10:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | not that I really care who pirates MS | Jun 14 10:46 |
| oiaohm | They must have the brand name shoe kind of brats. | Jun 14 10:46 |
| oiaohm | So they never look at anything else. | Jun 14 10:46 |
| chips_b_malroy | its not like I work for M$ | Jun 14 10:46 |
| *tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 14 10:46 | |
| oiaohm | You know the one nikes on shelf but since rebocks are not there they are not having the shoes. | Jun 14 10:47 |
| chips_b_malroy | True, brand name. Linux is sort of generic, in that its free. But MS costs a bundle, sorry for the punc | Jun 14 10:47 |
| chips_b_malroy | *[und | Jun 14 10:47 |
| chips_b_malroy | pund | Jun 14 10:47 |
| oiaohm | Also the idea that the higher the price the better the item should be stupidity. | Jun 14 10:48 |
| _Mutex_ | its costs some, but far from "a bundle". | Jun 14 10:48 |
| oiaohm | Price does not equal quality. | Jun 14 10:48 |
| chips_b_malroy | $400 for ultimate boxed version when it first came out, I would say that is a "bundle." | Jun 14 10:48 |
| _Mutex_ | generally speaking it does,, but yes, not necessaraly | Jun 14 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Heck if MS OS matched there sales pitches over the years we would be virus free. | Jun 14 10:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | or $399 | Jun 14 10:49 |
| _Mutex_ | $120 for win Xp , over 8 years of use $1.56 per month, less that a cup of coffee | Jun 14 10:49 |
| oiaohm | XP total predicted life was 10 years. | Jun 14 10:49 |
| chips_b_malroy | u sound just like a MS saleman, or shill | Jun 14 10:49 |
| _Mutex_ | why because I can add ? | Jun 14 10:50 |
| _Goblin | he's a little late if he is....I don't think MS wants to sell XP anymore ;) | Jun 14 10:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I don't think it will be long before the Beta of #Chrome is at a point where I can replace #Firefox (sorry FF) | Jun 14 10:50 | |
| _Mutex_ | its also not 8 years ago anymore either | Jun 14 10:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | no, because u changed the subject from vista at $399 to XP | Jun 14 10:50 |
| oiaohm | Windows has not followed normal cycle. | Jun 14 10:50 |
| magentar | the russian law that may force ms to continue selling XP for 50 years or so is quite funny | Jun 14 10:51 |
| oiaohm | By now MS would have predide lack of applications would have forced you out of XP _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:51 |
| _Mutex_ | vista happen to cost me $120 as well, I dont know where you shop from, but stop it :) | Jun 14 10:51 |
| _Mutex_ | your being ripped | Jun 14 10:51 |
| chips_b_malroy | they will continue to sell xp, watch | Jun 14 10:51 |
| chips_b_malroy | but not for 50 years | Jun 14 10:51 |
| chips_b_malroy | its the only thing they have that works on most netbooks | Jun 14 10:52 |
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| chips_b_malroy | they cannot drop it | Jun 14 10:52 |
| _Mutex_ | except Win7 and Vista virtulise xp, and most xp stuff works anyway, non issue | Jun 14 10:52 |
| oiaohm | virtulised does not run 3d games well. | Jun 14 10:52 |
| magentar | yes, win7 is even worse for netbooks. the 64bit edition uses 1,7gb ram now when it boots up instead of 1,2 gb like vista | Jun 14 10:52 |
| _Mutex_ | Win7 has less overhead that xp | Jun 14 10:52 |
| oiaohm | If that was so Win7 should work in 256 megs of ram _Mutex_ | Jun 14 10:53 |
| oiaohm | It don't. | Jun 14 10:53 |
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| oiaohm | If reactos can get there act in order they could take the lower market from MS. | Jun 14 10:53 |
| _Mutex_ | Im running win7 on a crappy old compaq (right now), it replaced xp, and its lots faster, and crisper, with aero on the lot. | Jun 14 10:54 |
| _Mutex_ | thats just personal experience, but its how it is. | Jun 14 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Really faster or just feels faster. | Jun 14 10:54 |
| chips_b_malroy | forget ReactOS, wine is react, and wine is better | Jun 14 10:54 |
| _Mutex_ | really faster, | Jun 14 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Benched. | Jun 14 10:54 |
| oiaohm | windows 7 does a few things that make it feel faster. | Jun 14 10:55 |
| oiaohm | Linux also has been doing things that make it feel slower. | Jun 14 10:55 |
| chips_b_malroy | so why u here Mutex, if you such a Vista lover? Just trolling Roys site or what? | Jun 14 10:55 |
| _Mutex_ | but its both the same, its hard to determine how fast, as damn fast well fast enough for me to be happy ( and im critical) | Jun 14 10:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] listening to Romeo Knights greatest A500 demo scene track........ | Jun 14 10:55 | |
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| _Mutex_ | Chips, why do you care ? | Jun 14 10:55 |
| chips_b_malroy | I am curious | Jun 14 10:56 |
| _Mutex_ | because you dont agree with me, does that me I should go ? | Jun 14 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Windows 7 uses graphic card to smooth out rendering. | Jun 14 10:56 |
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| _Mutex_ | do i present a too logical argument for you,, whats the problem ?? | Jun 14 10:56 |
| MinceR | chips_b_malroy: he's here because nobody banned him yet :> | Jun 14 10:56 |
| oiaohm | X11 causes sections of the interface to be drawn at slightly different times like XP does a bit making it feel slower. | Jun 14 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Basically the more actions you see the slower it fells. | Jun 14 10:56 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, i expect win7 is starting to make more use of teh GPU | Jun 14 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Being left hanging also makes something fell slower. | Jun 14 10:57 |
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| chips_b_malroy | I wonder when u cannot acknowledge when u lose a point, like the $399. I wonder why u love Vista/Seven. Why not ask? | Jun 14 10:57 |
| oiaohm | Win 7 shows more clearly than XP that application is on way. | Jun 14 10:57 |
| oiaohm | So you don't notice time as much. | Jun 14 10:57 |
| _Mutex_ | you want me to prove you paid $300 for vista, or do you want me to prove I paid $120 for it ? | Jun 14 10:57 |
| oiaohm | These are all trick to bend human mind. | Jun 14 10:57 |
| magentar | i used win7 alot on a very fast pc, it still feels much slower than XP, in fact pretty much the same like vista. it's like there has not been any innovation. | Jun 14 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Human mind is one of the worst time measures on earth. | Jun 14 10:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | I could care less what u paid as u well know | Jun 14 10:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | as u changed the point again | Jun 14 10:58 |
| _Goblin | PC Advisor has done comparisons with XP/Vista/7.... | Jun 14 10:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | just like Andre would do | Jun 14 10:58 |
| _Mutex_ | my point was simple, it was you said it cost a "bundle" I said, that $1.56 is not that much of a bundle (at least to me its not). | Jun 14 10:58 |
| _Goblin | its reporting only a 3 second boot difference between XP and 7... | Jun 14 10:58 |
| _Mutex_ | you might think thats alot, Idont | Jun 14 10:58 |
| _Goblin | and in other tests XP is outperforming 7 | Jun 14 10:59 |
| _Goblin | especially in the area of DX. | Jun 14 10:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | no, I think $399 is | Jun 14 10:59 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: the difference is you had to pay for windows over months it price tag would not be important. | Jun 14 10:59 |
| magentar | it's not really about the messurable performance, but how the os reacts to user commands, how snappy it is etc. win7 is very bad in that area | Jun 14 10:59 |
| _Mutex_ | dana I think it was on zdnet did an extensive series of benchmarks between XP, vista, and win7, generally win7 (as y ou would expect) came out on top overall for performance | Jun 14 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Since you have to pay for it all at once you still have to find money. | Jun 14 11:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | Mutex, is $399 too much for Vista Ultimate when it came out?????????? | Jun 14 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Not with DX _Mutex_ | Jun 14 11:00 |
| _Mutex_ | if you wan the link, ill dig it up, but im sure you can too | Jun 14 11:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | second time I asked u | Jun 14 11:00 |
| oiaohm | The path in Vista is longer. | Jun 14 11:00 |
| _Mutex_ | In my books it is. | Jun 14 11:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | thank you | Jun 14 11:00 |
| _Mutex_ | But its not that much here, | Jun 14 11:00 |
| _Goblin | true, but if MS are pushing it as the Ultimate Windows version, then I think the tests PC Advisor have done are very telling.. | Jun 14 11:00 |
| _Mutex_ | did you pay $399 ? | Jun 14 11:00 |
| _Mutex_ | or would you have too ? | Jun 14 11:01 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont its far cheaper than that, | Jun 14 11:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | I did not buy it or put it on my machines | Jun 14 11:01 |
| oiaohm | If game is optimsied to take advantage of DX 10+ it can be slightly faster than XP due to DX 10 instruction queing. | Jun 14 11:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | I never will | Jun 14 11:01 |
| _Mutex_ | So why quote the $399 price ? or is that just a plucked figure ? | Jun 14 11:01 |
| oiaohm | 399 is the recommend retail. | Jun 14 11:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | no Its real | Jun 14 11:01 |
| oiaohm | That a lot if idiots will pay. | Jun 14 11:02 |
| _Mutex_ | not here its not, | Jun 14 11:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | USA when it came out | Jun 14 11:02 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: no one should pay recommend retail. | Jun 14 11:02 |
| _Mutex_ | yes it is alot, thankfully thats NOT the price. | Jun 14 11:02 |
| _Goblin | true, but having looked at the various benchmarks I dont believe 7 is such a polished Vista as we were led to believe....maybe lipstick on the pig was a little bit of a compliment to 7... | Jun 14 11:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | not now, MS reduced the price,as it was not selling | Jun 14 11:02 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont think win7 is a polished vista either, ive used both and they are as different as linux 2.4 and 2.6 | Jun 14 11:03 |
| chips_b_malroy | Yes Goblin, Seven is just Vista with lipstick | Jun 14 11:03 |
| chips_b_malroy | but you seem to have an agenda Mutex, is this true? | Jun 14 11:03 |
| _Mutex_ | its more than that I assue you, and chip you have admitted you have not used vista or win7 !! | Jun 14 11:04 |
| MinceR | vista sp7 | Jun 14 11:04 |
| _Goblin | Talking of paying.....I refuse to buy anything from any company that says on its advert "We recommend Windows Vista"...if a company recommends Vista then it obviously has no knowledge or experience in the field of IT. | Jun 14 11:04 |
| MinceR | chips_b_malroy: he'll never admit it, he'll just change the subject :) | Jun 14 11:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | no true again Mutex | Jun 14 11:04 |
| _Mutex_ | well its not win7 is NOT vista, they are MILES different, in structure and function | Jun 14 11:04 |
| _Mutex_ | and performance | Jun 14 11:04 |
| MinceR | _Goblin: they're very hard to avoid | Jun 14 11:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | I did not say I have never used it, only that I did not buy it | Jun 14 11:04 |
| _Goblin | Miles in what way? | Jun 14 11:05 |
| _Mutex_ | you said you stoped using windows at xp | Jun 14 11:05 |
| _Goblin | in terms of the buying user... | Jun 14 11:05 |
| _Mutex_ | different | Jun 14 11:05 |
| chips_b_malroy | minceR, agreed, Roy needs to boot some | Jun 14 11:05 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry chips again, what part of these facts are you having problems with ? | Jun 14 11:05 |
| _Mutex_ | I would love to know | Jun 14 11:05 |
| chips_b_malroy | typical MS shill, trys to put words into your mouth and change the meaning entirely | Jun 14 11:05 |
| _Mutex_ | well you put your own words and explain it to me please | Jun 14 11:06 |
| chips_b_malroy | you don't have to "buy" Vista or Seven to use it | Jun 14 11:06 |
| _Mutex_ | but I wont lower myself to that standard of calling someone you dont agree with a shrill | Jun 14 11:06 |
| _Mutex_ | anyway, im a troll not a shrill. | Jun 14 11:06 |
| chips_b_malroy | then don't put word in my mouth please | Jun 14 11:06 |
| _Goblin | troll? I'm sorry I disagree. | Jun 14 11:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | at least you admit you are a troll | Jun 14 11:07 |
| _Mutex_ | well you can put your own in anytime, feel free | Jun 14 11:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | no | Jun 14 11:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | its not on my machine, I am not a pirate | Jun 14 11:07 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: so far benchmarks on Windows 7 says it perform basically the same as Vista. | Jun 14 11:07 |
| _Mutex_ | I disagree too goblin, im just trying to humer chips who seems to be getting a touch upset and the logical reasoning ! | Jun 14 11:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | I work on computers, remember | Jun 14 11:07 |
| oiaohm | Most of the difference is fell. | Jun 14 11:07 |
| _Goblin | Regardless of your motives/opinions I think you add to the conversation here. There would be nothing worse than a group of users in a chat room all agreeing with each other.... | Jun 14 11:07 |
| chips_b_malroy | I clean malware off them | Jun 14 11:07 |
| oiaohm | Removing the UAC nags helped the feel. | Jun 14 11:08 |
| _Mutex_ | _Goblin thankyou, I could not agree more. :) | Jun 14 11:08 |
| chips_b_malroy | Unlike you Goblin, I think Andre did not add to the conversation, and neither does Mutex or the linsux bunch | Jun 14 11:08 |
| chips_b_malroy | except in a humorus way | Jun 14 11:09 |
| _Mutex_ | you are welcome to your opinion, but I would prefer is you explained your reasons why you take issue with me ? | Jun 14 11:09 |
| chips_b_malroy | I already did | Jun 14 11:09 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: do you have benchmarks showing difference. | Jun 14 11:10 |
| _Mutex_ | ok, because I put words in your mouth ? and how do I do that pray tell ? | Jun 14 11:10 |
| oiaohm | Or is it just feel _Mutex_ | Jun 14 11:10 |
| _Mutex_ | Ill find em, hang on. | Jun 14 11:10 |
| oiaohm | It would be interesting to know where the difference are. | Jun 14 11:10 |
| _Mutex_ | keeping in mind its win7 beta against RTM xp and vista. | Jun 14 11:10 |
| oiaohm | http://www.eofw.org/bench/ Its like number 7 on this bench yep 600 mhz machine beating a 3000 mhz machine. | Jun 14 11:11 |
| oiaohm | Particular work loads show different alterations. | Jun 14 11:13 |
| _Mutex_ | is thatnot a benchmark only for rendering ? | Jun 14 11:13 |
| oiaohm | It a benchmark for render farms. | Jun 14 11:14 |
| oiaohm | It a particular workload. | Jun 14 11:14 |
| chips_b_malroy | Goblin, I am still working on the secure windows article for u | Jun 14 11:14 |
| _Mutex_ | a bit specialised, and not really across the board test, | Jun 14 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Its not like a 600 mhz x64 core machine is going to win against a 3000mhz in every test. | Jun 14 11:15 |
| _Mutex_ | but still valid for what it is. | Jun 14 11:15 |
| _Mutex_ | exactly | Jun 14 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Every bench mark tests different kinds of work load. | Jun 14 11:15 |
| oiaohm | There is no such thing as a the pefect bechmark that tests every thing. | Jun 14 11:16 |
| _Mutex_ | thats why its generally a suite of tests. | Jun 14 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Even a suite | Jun 14 11:16 |
| _Mutex_ | to evaluate all functions. | Jun 14 11:16 |
| oiaohm | It can still not cause bottle neck events just by call order. | Jun 14 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Reason why all benchs are taken with a grain of salt. And why when having a bench showing something different to others is interesting. | Jun 14 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Its normally pointing to a particular workflow having an advantage. The question is what one. | Jun 14 11:17 |
| _Mutex_ | ofcourse, and they can be turned to suit as well, the best way, is to try it. | Jun 14 11:18 |
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| oiaohm | basically all the benchs I have seen so far point to vista and windows 7 being the same. | Jun 14 11:18 |
| oiaohm | That is why if you have different it interest me. | Jun 14 11:18 |
| oiaohm | What did the rest miss. | Jun 14 11:19 |
| _Mutex_ | http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-255234.html this is not the one I was looking for as it has xp and vista this one does not, ill keep looking | Jun 14 11:20 |
| oiaohm | cinebench I depend on for graphical stuff is slower in that benchmark set on windows 7. Interesting little bit of general usage gain. | Jun 14 11:23 |
| _Mutex_ | dont forget its build 6956, its over 7100 now, | Jun 14 11:24 |
| _Mutex_ | and the later builds are faster | Jun 14 11:24 |
| _Mutex_ | my vista is build 6002 | Jun 14 11:24 |
| oiaohm | http://vimeo.com/5137477 << thinking I am hoping to be using this in release form before Windows 7 is released. | Jun 14 11:45 |
| _Goblin | sorry I was afk for a while...Chips it'll be up on the site as soon as you send it! | Jun 14 11:53 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Best tech news story ever: http://bit.ly/1n6yD | Jun 14 12:20 | |
| kentma | _Mutex_: I really haven't the slightest interest in your, or any other, vista build. This channel is not concerned with such things. | Jun 14 12:27 |
| _Mutex_ | that was an hour ago !!, we'll picked :) | Jun 14 12:27 |
| kentma | This channels' function hasn't changed in the last hour. | Jun 14 12:28 |
| kentma | or the last day, or week, or month, etc. | Jun 14 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure this channel is also not really concerned with what your interests are either. | Jun 14 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | I know it hasnt. | Jun 14 12:28 |
| kentma | schestowitz: Roy, you need to come in on the dyndns interface - something is up with the demon one (again). | Jun 14 12:30 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey I should pop up and have a random poke at someone in this channel for something to do :) hey kentma ?? | Jun 14 12:33 |
| kentma | schestowitz: I don't really know why I pay for it sometimes... | Jun 14 12:33 |
| schestowitz | Oh | Jun 14 12:34 |
| schestowitz | Let me see what was said... | Jun 14 12:34 |
| kentma | schestowitz: it's the demon interface down (again). You need to come in on the otherone. | Jun 14 12:34 |
| schestowitz | I see... | Jun 14 12:35 |
| schestowitz | I have 2/3 routes in | Jun 14 12:35 |
| schestowitz | Thanks for letting me know | Jun 14 12:35 |
| kentma | no worries. | Jun 14 12:35 |
| schestowitz | BTW, the trolls can probably be kicked | Jun 14 12:35 |
| schestowitz | It's part of that troll site Gary likes | Jun 14 12:35 |
| schestowitz | linusxx | Jun 14 12:35 |
| kentma | oh I see what you mean. I was talking about my server... | Jun 14 12:36 |
| kentma | sorry for the confusion! | Jun 14 12:36 |
| *_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal") | Jun 14 12:37 | |
| schestowitz | There's an attempt to diffuse here | Jun 14 12:47 |
| schestowitz | Since about 9 days ago | Jun 14 12:47 |
| schestowitz | It could be related to other abuses against the site. Now I know what PJ means when she becomes babysitter. | Jun 14 12:48 |
| schestowitz | I'll post some Linux news tonight | Jun 14 12:49 |
| schestowitz | "UN approves 'unprecedented' sanctions against North Korea over nuclear test" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/12/un-north-korea-nuclear-sanctions | Jun 14 12:52 |
| schestowitz | "PC firms face China decree" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25603145-36375,00.html | Jun 14 12:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Wall Street’s Toxic Message" http://ping.fm/UUC4u | Jun 14 12:55 | |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft Updates Windows Vista With Service Pack 2" | Jun 14 12:58 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft Will Offer Windows 7 Upgrade with Vista, Announces Server Launch" | Jun 14 12:58 |
| schestowitz | Vapourware! | Jun 14 12:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. Out of 1500 MSFT headlines only 4 mention "Vista" in the headline. They really buried that embarrassment. | Jun 14 13:00 | |
| _Mutex_ | do you think they will release a version of "Green Dam-Youth Escort" in open source for Linux, or require Linux to ship with a proprietary binary blob, and do FOSS want to "opening themselves to charges of abetting censorship." | Jun 14 13:00 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.81.15.232) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 13:01 | |
| schestowitz | Headlines for Vista7 in the same period: over 60. That's one heck of a vapourware pattern. Talk about what WILL be, not what there is. | Jun 14 13:01 |
| *jbartosik (n=joszi@aasy185.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 13:01 | |
| schestowitz | The PR puppet in CNET is just tossing Vista7 promotion 24/7 | Jun 14 13:03 |
| schestowitz | This is classic W-E marketing slog | Jun 14 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Lots of anti-Apple items along these lines too... | Jun 14 13:04 |
| schestowitz | "Windows 7 Beats Snow Leopard On Older Hardware Support - PC World" | Jun 14 13:04 |
| schestowitz | "Analyst: Windows 7 Launch Will Slow Apple's Mac Business (SiliconAlley)" | Jun 14 13:05 |
| schestowitz | Who pays those analysts | Jun 14 13:05 |
| schestowitz | Who pays IDG.. ? :-) | Jun 14 13:05 |
| tacone | omg, i read the jo shield post | Jun 14 13:05 |
| tacone | the last famous one. | Jun 14 13:05 |
| tacone | how bad. | Jun 14 13:05 |
| _Mutex_ | where is it ? | Jun 14 13:05 |
| tacone | http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/124/ | Jun 14 13:05 |
| _Mutex_ | thanks :) | Jun 14 13:06 |
| tacone | lies, hidden truths and so on. | Jun 14 13:06 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft commercials lead to complains... http://www.xboxic.com/news/5377 | Jun 14 13:06 |
| tacone | schestowitz: in the comments he also pointed out the famous 'killing comments' | Jun 14 13:07 |
| tacone | how coward. | Jun 14 13:07 |
| schestowitz | tacone: seen what shimitsudok wrote about it? | Jun 14 13:07 |
| schestowitz | ushimitsudok. | Jun 14 13:07 |
| schestowitz | tacone: yes, he shows you anonymous comments | Jun 14 13:07 |
| schestowitz | BN NEVER DELETED COMMENTS | Jun 14 13:07 |
| schestowitz | So it's like saying the park is a pile of shit because I found some poop under the bench | Jun 14 13:08 |
| tacone | so he thinks this is shit to be taken seriously ? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/09/mono-critique-for-ubuntu/#comment-65907 | Jun 14 13:08 |
| tacone | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/21/death-by-microsoft-windows/#comment-58764 | Jun 14 13:08 |
| schestowitz | tacone: no | Jun 14 13:08 |
| tacone | it is idiotic to classify a 'throw people into volcano' as serious | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | But he needs to kill the messenger | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | By implying the messenger kills | Jun 14 13:09 |
| tacone | i've seen the giving up post of ushi, yep. | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | Can you blame him? | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | He writes long posts, then gets trolled | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | Or his posts removed | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | "Me and Ubuntu" | Jun 14 13:09 |
| tacone | ushi ? well, he was so good at pointing out their crap | Jun 14 13:09 |
| tacone | no wonder he got trolled. | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | Makes me wonder if he'll swap distros in the near future.. | Jun 14 13:09 |
| schestowitz | tacone: yes, the hypocrisy | Jun 14 13:10 |
| tacone | many people will | Jun 14 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Like copyright assignment | Jun 14 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Novell whining about OOo while doing the same with Mono | Jun 14 13:10 |
| tacone | and debian fans say 'please don't impose ubuntu on us' | Jun 14 13:10 |
| tacone | 'mono by default = making debian the same as ubuntu' | Jun 14 13:10 |
| schestowitz | No more prepaid boxes for RRoD 360s from Microsoft http://www.geek.com/articles/games/no-more-prepaid-boxes-for-rrod-360s-from-microsoft-20090610/ | Jun 14 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft: No more "coffins" for busted Xbox 360 consoles http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/52547/microsoft-no-more-coffins-for-busted-xbox-360-consoles/ | Jun 14 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jun 14 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Not enough funds? | Jun 14 13:11 |
| tacone | nice equation if you think about it. | Jun 14 13:11 |
| _Mutex_ | what do you think of FOSS in Australia becoming a charity so they can get tax deductable donations, does foss condone begware ? | Jun 14 13:11 |
| tacone | debian + mono = ubuntu | Jun 14 13:11 |
| schestowitz | There was one that said, what are we, opensuse? | Jun 14 13:11 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: see response from Scott | Jun 14 13:12 |
| _Mutex_ | k :) | Jun 14 13:12 |
| schestowitz | It's quite enjoyable watching Mcirosoft news this year | Jun 14 13:13 |
| schestowitz | They announce nothing new, they close down divisions | Jun 14 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Not there's a wii ripoof (natal) | Jun 14 13:14 |
| schestowitz | *ripoff (ish) | Jun 14 13:14 |
| tacone | ripoop. | Jun 14 13:14 |
| schestowitz | "Nintendo tried, rejected motion-capture tech of Xbox Natal - Seattle Post Intelligencer" | Jun 14 13:14 |
| schestowitz | "Natal is good... for me to poop on" | Jun 14 13:14 |
| schestowitz | Context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ylHMSSvfU8 | Jun 14 13:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft: No more "coffins" for busted Xbox 360 consoles http://ping.fm/plyP4 | Jun 14 13:15 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz appalling. SAVE VISTA!!! | Jun 14 13:15 | |
| schestowitz | " insult comic dog " | Jun 14 13:15 |
| *Python1320 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 14 13:17 | |
| oiaohm | I prefer samsung to 360's | Jun 14 13:18 |
| schestowitz | tacone: well done attracting attention to posts about the issues such as Mono and censorship. This encouraged Fedora to look into it and Ubuntu will need to reconsider how it manages (censors) forums. | Jun 14 13:18 |
| oiaohm | They sent out the new monitor and you just had to put yours in the box sent. | Jun 14 13:19 |
| oiaohm | And return it. | Jun 14 13:19 |
| schestowitz | I've been pressing on Red Hat for a while | Jun 14 13:19 |
| oiaohm | What MS was doing was stupid. | Jun 14 13:19 |
| schestowitz | Some people in Red Hat don't like Mono. | Jun 14 13:19 |
| tacone | really ? | Jun 14 13:19 |
| tacone | i did encourage fedora to do anything ? | Jun 14 13:19 |
| tacone | i don't think i had any effect at all. | Jun 14 13:19 |
| schestowitz | The whole attention it has been getting | Jun 14 13:19 |
| schestowitz | Debian is where the discussion is at right now | Jun 14 13:19 |
| schestowitz | Debian has Mono opposition too | Jun 14 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Ie send out box. Send back 360 then repaired or replacement out. | Jun 14 13:20 |
| tacone | url ? | Jun 14 13:20 |
| schestowitz | Mono was controversial before BN existed | Jun 14 13:20 |
| tacone | yep, they're trolling Millan. | Jun 14 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Notice something here you lose a box each time. | Jun 14 13:20 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw is among the critics | Jun 14 13:20 |
| oiaohm | MS is not known for there brains. | Jun 14 13:20 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: The XP Daemon had bad XBox experiences | Jun 14 13:20 |
| schestowitz | I wonder just how much they lost | Jun 14 13:21 |
| oiaohm | Samsung uses common sence. | Jun 14 13:21 |
| schestowitz | InfoWeek said $7 billiob | Jun 14 13:21 |
| schestowitz | But these numbers are guesswork at best | Jun 14 13:21 |
| oiaohm | It saves a box and 1 extra trip of shipping. | Jun 14 13:21 |
| schestowitz | It was $6 in 2006 | Jun 14 13:21 |
| schestowitz | *$6bn | Jun 14 13:21 |
| schestowitz | So just $7bn in 2008? | Jun 14 13:21 |
| schestowitz | 20,000,000x 360s (sold at loss+ many replacements) + losses from XBox.. | Jun 14 13:22 |
| schestowitz | Income is from Games and XBox Live | Jun 14 13:22 |
| _Mutex_ | I believe (not confirmed) MS's last financial report showed xboxes starting to turn a profit !, I know the original idea was to sell cheap for takup. Kinda like FOSS but for hardware. | Jun 14 13:23 |
| schestowitz | At $200 loss per sale it's about $6bn in losses for XBox360 | Jun 14 13:23 |
| schestowitz | This does not include repairs | Jun 14 13:23 |
| _Mutex_ | so its going to take a LOOOG time to recoup | Jun 14 13:23 |
| schestowitz | And R&D | Jun 14 13:23 |
| _Mutex_ | yes | Jun 14 13:23 |
| schestowitz | And XBox losses | Jun 14 13:23 |
| _Mutex_ | what do they say "you gotta be in it to win it" | Jun 14 13:24 |
| schestowitz | Cause of ballmer | Jun 14 13:24 |
| _Mutex_ | no prizes for standing on the side line | Jun 14 13:24 |
| schestowitz | He says they must expand | Jun 14 13:24 |
| schestowitz | Unlike Cisco for example | Jun 14 13:24 |
| _Mutex_ | yes | Jun 14 13:24 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer insist that without expansion you shrink | Jun 14 13:24 |
| oiaohm | At current rate of braken downs MS should just scrap the Xbox360 line and refund the money it will be cheaper. | Jun 14 13:24 |
| schestowitz | But they just get burned online and in console | Jun 14 13:24 |
| schestowitz | *consoles (among other areas) | Jun 14 13:24 |
| _Mutex_ | he's right without expansion you do shrink, relative to the world getting more populated | Jun 14 13:25 |
| schestowitz | Well, sony cleaned up with PS2 | Jun 14 13:25 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, its very popular | Jun 14 13:25 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont know about wii, | Jun 14 13:25 |
| _Mutex_ | ive actually never even been interested in getting a console | Jun 14 13:26 |
| _Mutex_ | not a gamer | Jun 14 13:26 |
| schestowitz | http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=talkbackCommentsFull&talk_back_header_id=6450706&articleid=CA6458001 "JULY 6 | FROM VARIETY: Defective Xbox 360s will cost Microsoft more than $1 billion on its bottom line. " | Jun 14 13:26 |
| oiaohm | PS3 out lasts xbox360's. Heck at least with a PS3 you can simply replace a dead harddrive. | Jun 14 13:26 |
| schestowitz | MS bought Expedia | Jun 14 13:26 |
| schestowitz | No? | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | And Encarta | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | That's dead | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | FLight Simulatr | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | Dead | Jun 14 13:27 |
| oiaohm | The wii also has a long operational life. | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | Ensemble... | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | And the list goes on.. | Jun 14 13:27 |
| oiaohm | Biggest problem about wii has been flying controllers. | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | RazorFish... | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | Danger | Jun 14 13:27 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh yes, big problem is, it does not really matter if they make a loss in some segments, its is actually a handy tax write off | Jun 14 13:27 |
| schestowitz | Buying for the sake of buying | Jun 14 13:27 |
| oiaohm | To a point _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:27 |
| _Mutex_ | im disippointed the flight sim is gone, not that i ever used it :) | Jun 14 13:28 |
| _Mutex_ | oh yes, to a point exactly, just ask chrisler | Jun 14 13:28 |
| schestowitz | Maybe I played it before it was MS' | Jun 14 13:28 |
| schestowitz | Many, many years ago | Jun 14 13:28 |
| schestowitz | Maybe 10+ | Jun 14 13:28 |
| _Mutex_ | Yes, me too, when it still had the twin towers in it, I still have that win95 version | Jun 14 13:28 |
| oiaohm | Problem I have is MS having money problems and Linux really is not attacking them yet. | Jun 14 13:29 |
| schestowitz | "No more Microsoft points, user ratings" http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/xbox-live-evolves-no-more-microsoft-points-user-ratings.ars | Jun 14 13:29 |
| oiaohm | Would you not give up having to pay for ads cal's in windows networks if you could _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:29 |
| _Mutex_ | linux seems to be somewhat pre-occupied with internal affairs | Jun 14 13:30 |
| schestowitz | That's its nature | Jun 14 13:30 |
| schestowitz | It's not a company | Jun 14 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Doing the conversion from server to desktop is a painful process _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:30 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, :) | Jun 14 13:30 |
| schestowitz | COmpanies follow orders from one route | Jun 14 13:30 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer descending downwards | Jun 14 13:30 |
| schestowitz | Bazaar means everyone is boss | Jun 14 13:30 |
| _Mutex_ | which ofcourse brings with it some great benifits and some difficult problems | Jun 14 13:31 |
| oiaohm | DRI2 conversion and building open source video card drivers has sucked up a lot of resources. | Jun 14 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Upgrading Linux kernel to be more realtime to assist desktop and embeded is also sucking up resources. | Jun 14 13:32 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft keeps dividend, opens investor question" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/*http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090611/us_microsoft_dividend.html?.v=4 | Jun 14 13:33 |
| oiaohm | End result will be quite a tech jump forwards _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:34 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Don't believe the FUD about Theora vs H.264: http://is.gd/11CUi this rubbish is all over, stamp on it every time someone pulls it | Jun 14 13:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] James Ray's Gangwar are really rather good. What Sisters of Mercy would have sounded like had Eldritch not disappeared up his own nose. | Jun 14 13:35 | |
| schestowitz | MS has found another shill (Injazat Data Systems) http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20090614082948 | Jun 14 13:35 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, but a massive amount of work and development to get real time and predictable results, it will probably require a change in methodology, generally more interrupt based. | Jun 14 13:35 |
| _Mutex_ | rip out all global variables, modularise everything, divide critical and non-critical threats its a big big job. but well worth it. | Jun 14 13:36 |
| oiaohm | The difference between 2.6.29 and 2.6.30 in a lot of that is quite massive. | Jun 14 13:36 |
| _Mutex_ | Linux is over due for a from scratch re-write. | Jun 14 13:36 |
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| oiaohm | Over the last 10 versions there is almost not a single section of the core code not altered _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:37 |
| amarsh04 | Linux has been more "rewritten" than any other code base that size | Jun 14 13:37 |
| amarsh04 | snap | Jun 14 13:37 |
| _Mutex_ | re-writing is very different than maintaining or patching modules. | Jun 14 13:38 |
| oiaohm | This is rewriting. | Jun 14 13:38 |
| _Mutex_ | clean room ? | Jun 14 13:38 |
| oiaohm | redesigning the complete lock system. | Jun 14 13:38 |
| oiaohm | That is the hart of a OS. | Jun 14 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Lock system don't work OS don't work. | Jun 14 13:38 |
| oiaohm | way file access are done have been altered. | Jun 14 13:39 |
| _Mutex_ | thats great, its about time, that applies to most sections of an OS, if one bit dont work, its usually a show stopper. | Jun 14 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Way memory management is done is altered to a completely different design. | Jun 14 13:39 |
| oiaohm | This is in 10 subversions of 2.6 | Jun 14 13:39 |
| _Mutex_ | thats good too, I assume thats is mainly for 64-bit | Jun 14 13:39 |
| _Mutex_ | but will benifit 32 as well | Jun 14 13:40 |
| oiaohm | 64 and 32 bit branches are being merged | Jun 14 13:40 |
| oiaohm | So there will not be 2 split branches for x86. | Jun 14 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Only 1 that builds for either 64 or 32 bit. | Jun 14 13:40 |
| _Mutex_ | yes | Jun 14 13:40 |
| oiaohm | This is also being applied to other archs where able. | Jun 14 13:40 |
| oiaohm | You are talking about a rewrite. | Jun 14 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Its underway. | Jun 14 13:41 |
| amarsh04 | I build kernels for my PII-266 on the amd64 fine (-: | Jun 14 13:41 |
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| _Mutex_ | ofcourse, does not matter as long as you have the right switches set | Jun 14 13:41 |
| oiaohm | There is a lot less core code now than at the start of the process. | Jun 14 13:41 |
| _Mutex_ | is it quicker to compile on 64-bit ? | Jun 14 13:41 |
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| oiaohm | More drivers less core code. | Jun 14 13:42 |
| amarsh04 | apart from the faster, dual-core cpu? I don't know | Jun 14 13:42 |
| oiaohm | 64 bit build not much different. | Jun 14 13:42 |
| _Mutex_ | yea, what was linux ver 1.0 100K lines of code | Jun 14 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Gcc really not built to take advantage of 64 bit. | Jun 14 13:42 |
| _Mutex_ | now what 6 millions + or is it 11 mil ? cant remember | Jun 14 13:42 |
| _Mutex_ | True, gcc has some inherent problems, its optimization is not the best | Jun 14 13:43 |
| oiaohm | 2.6.28 linux kernel 7M ±2M' lines of code. | Jun 14 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Vista 17M ±9M | Jun 14 13:44 |
| _Mutex_ | sounds about right | Jun 14 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Vista is not what you call small. | Jun 14 13:44 |
| schestowitz | Linux does not need a rewrite | Jun 14 13:45 |
| schestowitz | Utter FUD | Jun 14 13:45 |
| schestowitz | It is very well engineered and rewritten by the modules | Jun 14 13:45 |
| schestowitz | Many times entire lumps of code are thrown away and replaced | Jun 14 13:45 |
| schestowitz | Stuff like KVM gets merged | Jun 14 13:45 |
| trmanco | crap | Jun 14 13:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Bartz says search engine Bing unlikely to make significant mark" http://ping.fm/A6yVo | Jun 14 13:45 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] That whole "BING" nonsense at least keeps Yahoo! safe from Microsoft,for now.. http://ping.fm/msjG2 | Jun 14 13:45 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] meh, Evolution hogging 250 MB of ram... that's 1/4 of my total ram :| Better restart the app before it hits the swap space... | Jun 14 13:45 | |
| oiaohm | Some sections of Linux need rewritting. Like full support for hard realtime that not even Vista support that. | Jun 14 13:45 |
| _Mutex_ | I guess not having the Windows source code its source file may to any size, same with linux its not a very accurate value, if you are carefull and comment alot, its bloats the source but not the compiled code | Jun 14 13:45 |
| schestowitz | New filesystem are entered, etc. | Jun 14 13:45 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is very immature in that respect. Like finally saying bye to BSD's TCP/IP | Jun 14 13:46 |
| schestowitz | And having HUGE holes by replacing it in Vista | Jun 14 13:46 |
| _Mutex_ | No certainly not, windows is NOT a RTOS, | Jun 14 13:46 |
| schestowitz | Send packet, own Vista. | Jun 14 13:46 |
| schestowitz | Well done. True MS engineering | Jun 14 13:46 |
| oiaohm | NT design is RTOS. | Jun 14 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Due to miss placed locking it cannot do it. | Jun 14 13:46 |
| _Mutex_ | they droped BSD's tcp stack years and years ago. | Jun 14 13:47 |
| _Mutex_ | ancient history | Jun 14 13:47 |
| oiaohm | Yet they kept the ping of death support upto XP _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:47 |
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| oiaohm | Vista was the first with a new TCP/IP stack completely. | Jun 14 13:48 |
| _Mutex_ | I would argu NT is an RTOS, few if any PC desktop OS's are RTOS, thats includes VMS or NT (if its a derivative of it), none of them have 100% predictable response nor interrupt based. which is a basic requirement for RTOS. | Jun 14 13:49 |
| _Mutex_ | It cant push an interrupt onto the stack, it has to deal with it immediatly, regardless of what your doing, making it not so great for desktop operations. | Jun 14 13:49 |
| schestowitz | The image says it all about the author's intent:http://www.itpro.co.uk/611455/linux-and-windows-battle-for-netbooks | Jun 14 13:49 |
| _Mutex_ | QNX is your best bet for a good POSIX RTOS | Jun 14 13:49 |
| trmanco | 320 MB :O | Jun 14 13:49 |
| trmanco | insane | Jun 14 13:49 |
| schestowitz | trmanco FF sometimes takes 1.3GB on mine | Jun 14 13:50 |
| schestowitz | Then I kill it | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | worse than Thunderbird, hard to believe | Jun 14 13:50 |
| schestowitz | FF2 was fine | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, not firefox | Jun 14 13:50 |
| schestowitz | But plugins seem to poison FF3 | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | firefox is gine with 100 MB | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | fine* | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | that's in any app | Jun 14 13:50 |
| schestowitz | Maybe I should mess with about:confid | Jun 14 13:50 |
| schestowitz | To limit how much it allocated | Jun 14 13:50 |
| schestowitz | It annoys me that I hit swap with 2GB because of FF | Jun 14 13:50 |
| trmanco | lol | Jun 14 13:51 |
| trmanco | I hat it when I hate swap | Jun 14 13:51 |
| trmanco | hate* | Jun 14 13:51 |
| schestowitz | X takes 750MB | Jun 14 13:51 |
| schestowitz | Virtual | Jun 14 13:51 |
| schestowitz | Just about 200mb in practice | Jun 14 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Good RTOS can push interrupt of not important classes to stack so important ones can be processed _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Good RTOS's are not that bad to use as a desktop. | Jun 14 13:52 |
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| schestowitz | Dell is still in bed with MS: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/18204.cfm http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090611005079&newsLang=en | Jun 14 13:53 |
| trmanco | this is one time only because I'm downloading my hole gmail folder | Jun 14 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Basically making Linux a full RTOS provides the halfway tech a decent desktop OS needs _Mutex_ | Jun 14 13:54 |
| schestowitz | Any decision about this yet? http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/01/daily41.html?ana=yfcpc http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/01/daily41.html ("Apple, Google, Microsoft, others may be under scrutiny for hiring practices") | Jun 14 13:55 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: better whole than hole /dev/null/) | Jun 14 13:56 |
| trmanco | oops | Jun 14 13:56 |
| trmanco | yeah whole* | Jun 14 13:56 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: there are Linus derivatives for RTOSes | Jun 14 13:56 |
| schestowitz | *nux | Jun 14 13:57 |
| schestowitz | Or more like branches with some blobs on them | Jun 14 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Those branches are slowly being merged into main schestowitz. | Jun 14 13:57 |
| schestowitz | BlueCat, Concurrent, Red Hat has one too... and there's Novell's SLERT.. maybe MontaVista handles this to | Jun 14 13:57 |
| schestowitz | *too | Jun 14 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Threaded interpert handling in 2.6.30 came from one of those branches. | Jun 14 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Same with better io control. | Jun 14 13:58 |
| schestowitz | Yes, they called for a RTOS/embedded branch some time ago | Jun 14 13:58 |
| schestowitz | Morton circa April 2008 | Jun 14 13:58 |
| schestowitz | That's a growth area | Jun 14 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Still slowly merging away. | Jun 14 13:58 |
| schestowitz | Better than desktop | Jun 14 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the locking fixes also come from there. | Jun 14 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Locking is a night mare of RTOS's. | Jun 14 13:59 |
| schestowitz | Intel has VXWorks now | Jun 14 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Ie I need to respond to something and something else has locked it bugger I just missed the time window. | Jun 14 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Opps someone dead. | Jun 14 13:59 |
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| schestowitz | Apple fans getting excited about WWDC ATM.. | Jun 14 14:00 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, where they laugh at Microsoft, then copy then | Jun 14 14:01 |
| schestowitz | Admiration of company events... rallying silly volunteers | Jun 14 14:01 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft responds by copying the Mac | Jun 14 14:01 |
| DaemonMDV | *them | Jun 14 14:01 |
| DaemonMDV | they both get it about half right | Jun 14 14:01 |
| schestowitz | To copy the Mac one needs to start with UNIX | Jun 14 14:01 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 14:01 |
| DaemonMDV | NT is based on a lot of the same ideas | Jun 14 14:02 |
| DaemonMDV | though obviously made incompatible and hidden from the user | Jun 14 14:02 |
| schestowitz | Windows is built on top of mud, not soil | Jun 14 14:02 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft thought it can outdo science by ignoring it | Jun 14 14:02 |
| schestowitz | And then promote /faith/ in Windows instead | Jun 14 14:02 |
| schestowitz | Adding sudo in 2005 | Jun 14 14:02 |
| schestowitz | And done badly | Jun 14 14:02 |
| schestowitz | Silver Lie does not make ANY headlines anymore | Jun 14 14:03 |
| schestowitz | Dead in the water, I bet. They complained no-one experimented with it | Jun 14 14:03 |
| schestowitz | MLB kicked it to the curb too | Jun 14 14:03 |
| DaemonMDV | apparently one of the reasons for people liking Mono is because C++ makes it difficult to make a decent multithreaded application | Jun 14 14:03 |
| schestowitz | So did NYT (WPF) | Jun 14 14:03 |
| oiaohm | That is a fairly poor reason DaemonMDV | Jun 14 14:04 |
| DaemonMDV | Linus Torvalds has hated C++ with a passion for years | Jun 14 14:04 |
| DaemonMDV | and made no secret of it | Jun 14 14:04 |
| DaemonMDV | I doubt he would like Mono, but still | Jun 14 14:04 |
| oiaohm | vala is quite nice for multi threaded. | Jun 14 14:04 |
| DaemonMDV | he won't allow any C++ in the kernel | Jun 14 14:05 |
| oiaohm | There is no logical reason for it. | Jun 14 14:05 |
| DaemonMDV | it's all C or assembler (in a few areas) | Jun 14 14:05 |
| DaemonMDV | cause it's so easy to make a disaster with C++ | Jun 14 14:05 |
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| _Mutex_ | hate c++ ?? gee, thats quite restrictive of a top level developer. | Jun 14 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Does not help that when you ask a C++ programmer to optimise for speed. | Jun 14 14:05 |
| schestowitz | News about no news... *sigh* Apple, Microsoft make mediocre moves < http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2009/06/12/Opinions/Apple.Microsoft.Make.Mediocre.Moves-3747438.shtml > | Jun 14 14:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz indeed. Bartz: "Bing? Hahahahano. Go away." Morse: "We will proactively synergise our buzzwords to hahahano, go away." | Jun 14 14:05 | |
| DaemonMDV | because every programmer that uses C++ effectively creates a new language | Jun 14 14:05 |
| DaemonMDV | because it's so bloated and ambiguous | Jun 14 14:05 |
| _Mutex_ | its not like c++ is a windows or MS thing either | Jun 14 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Lot of case you end up with code that is basically C with a few alters. | Jun 14 14:06 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 14 14:06 |
| schestowitz | I sat there shaking my head in disbelief as I realized I had just witnessed possibly the most disheartening Apple keynote in recent memory. Three years ago, Steve Jobs introduced the adoption of Intel chips in Apple machines, a move that would send its market share soaring. A year later he walked up on stage and announced the phone that would change the mobile world forever." | Jun 14 14:06 |
| DaemonMDV | the C++ standard is over twice as big as C because it has to do everything C can and implement all of itself on top of it | Jun 14 14:06 |
| _Mutex_ | Its not really, considering you are able to code pure C within C++ so if you like like OOP, you dont have to follow OOP principles. | Jun 14 14:06 |
| DaemonMDV | the standard ended up being over 300 pages long | Jun 14 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Gcc cannot optimise C++ static for nuts. | Jun 14 14:06 |
| _Mutex_ | does he hate java as well, its basically the same thing even more so. | Jun 14 14:06 |
| oiaohm | You can do OOP in C without needing C++ too. | Jun 14 14:07 |
| _Mutex_ | that is very true oiaohm | Jun 14 14:07 |
| DaemonMDV | It would be nice if something like Mono came along that didn't have the patent and political problems associated with it | Jun 14 14:07 |
| oiaohm | Most likely that will be vala DaemonMDV | Jun 14 14:07 |
| oiaohm | Language like C# the performance of C. | Jun 14 14:08 |
| DaemonMDV | JAVA is too damned huge and slow to create anything non-trivial that doesn't need a gazillion megabytes of RAM | Jun 14 14:08 |
| _Mutex_ | not really you cant name mangle, or or overload functions in C. but yes you can code in objects with many languages, its just not optimal. | Jun 14 14:08 |
| DaemonMDV | I think Limewire is a pretty much proof of that | Jun 14 14:08 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, ive heard that about java, never use it myself. but its just an extension of C++ and enforces OOP | Jun 14 14:09 |
| DaemonMDV | a Gnutella client written in Java that needs 4 times the RAM of GTK-Gnutella | Jun 14 14:09 |
| oiaohm | How does C++ do it. _Mutex_ you have to remember C++ at one stage was just a pure translator to C++. | Jun 14 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Opps | Jun 14 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Last C++ C | Jun 14 14:09 |
| DaemonMDV | or Vuze | Jun 14 14:09 |
| DaemonMDV | a Bittorrent client written in Java | Jun 14 14:09 |
| DaemonMDV | that needs 8 times the RAM of Transmission | Jun 14 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Major problem is JIT systems. | Jun 14 14:09 |
| DaemonMDV | then there was that god awful AOL Instant Messenger for Linux that was written in Java | Jun 14 14:10 |
| _Mutex_ | C++ is an extension of S&M and then later ANSI C and C++ standard. | Jun 14 14:10 |
| DaemonMDV | before they euthanized it | Jun 14 14:10 |
| DaemonMDV | mercifully | Jun 14 14:10 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 14 14:10 |
| oiaohm | Unlike true native code Linux kernel and other OS kernels don't know how to cheeply clear memory. | Jun 14 14:10 |
| oiaohm | When using a JIT. | Jun 14 14:10 |
| DaemonMDV | Sadomasochism? | Jun 14 14:10 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/DUJcI Good for GNU/Linux that can nicely occupy those Mac PCs, filling them with modern, top-of-the-line operating systems. | Jun 14 14:10 | |
| DaemonMDV | I agree | Jun 14 14:10 |
| oiaohm | If JIT's are ever going to work they are going to have to extend kernel. | Jun 14 14:11 |
| oiaohm | To allow blocks of themselves to be generated on fly. | Jun 14 14:11 |
| DaemonMDV | you'll feel the veins in your brain start to throb by page 2 of Teach Yourself C++ | Jun 14 14:11 |
| oiaohm | And auto dumped like native programs. | Jun 14 14:11 |
| DaemonMDV | I honestly think that anyone who manages to make anything that works well in C++ should go on to cure cancer | Jun 14 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Just think about trying to run a mono program on a PPC chip without ram. | Jun 14 14:12 |
| DaemonMDV | because they're obviously smart enough | Jun 14 14:12 |
| DaemonMDV | they can't be human | Jun 14 14:12 |
| _Mutex_ | I know, its head exploding stuff to start with. You want to try LabVIEW for something fun and really interesting. (and fun) | Jun 14 14:12 |
| oiaohm | C++ with a good complier not bad. | Jun 14 14:12 |
| oiaohm | C++ with gcc scream. | Jun 14 14:12 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, | Jun 14 14:12 |
| DaemonMDV | it depends, most people know C and enough C++ to pad a resume for an interviewer that won't know the difference | Jun 14 14:13 |
| oiaohm | The lack of whole program optimisations. | Jun 14 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Cause major problems. | Jun 14 14:13 |
| DaemonMDV | and then just limits themselves to a little bit of it now and then to make everything look like it should :P | Jun 14 14:13 |
| DaemonMDV | every C++ programmer establishes their own dialect | Jun 14 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Linux most likely has another 10 percent performance that can be extracted just threw complier improvments. | Jun 14 14:14 |
| DaemonMDV | using C++ is like being in the middle of the ocean with the stars to guide you | Jun 14 14:14 |
| _Mutex_ | they shouldnt, C++ is designed to help enforce good coding standards and module re-useability | Jun 14 14:14 |
| DaemonMDV | and Iran-Contra wasn't arms for hostages | Jun 14 14:14 |
| oiaohm | C++ fails at that _Mutex_ | Jun 14 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Lot of coders duplicate code inside there programs. | Jun 14 14:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz even on powerpc, dual-boot with Linux is a lifesaver quite often enough to be worth a few gig for a partition | Jun 14 14:15 | |
| _Mutex_ | yes, it does, its not a good language for QA based software engineering, but used correctly it can create good compiled code. | Jun 14 14:15 |
| DaemonMDV | Sauerbraten is good, Firefox is borderline acceptable | Jun 14 14:15 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 14:16 |
| DaemonMDV | both outstanding achievements by C++ standards | Jun 14 14:16 |
| DaemonMDV | I downloaded the Linux 2.6.30 source tarball | Jun 14 14:16 |
| _Mutex_ | Unfortunately the state of the art in computer science is wohfully poor, there seems to be little of no standards or QA disipline instilled in coders these days. | Jun 14 14:16 |
| DaemonMDV | it's finally broken 50 megs | Jun 14 14:17 |
| oiaohm | http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/devel/sparse/ Linux kernel is not built with a stock standard gcc by the developers either _Mutex_ | Jun 14 14:17 |
| _Mutex_ | unless you compile your own with gcc, but ive heard report that linux runes quite a bit faster if compiled with the INTEL C++ compilers | Jun 14 14:18 |
| DaemonMDV | I hadn't even been following it | Jun 14 14:18 |
| DaemonMDV | or paying attention for a while | Jun 14 14:18 |
| DaemonMDV | it's now actually 72 megs of source | Jun 14 14:18 |
| _Mutex_ | thats ok neither have i :) | Jun 14 14:18 |
| DaemonMDV | it's grown 22 of those megs since 2.6.28 | Jun 14 14:19 |
| DaemonMDV | god damn..... | Jun 14 14:19 |
| oiaohm | sparse replaces the cpp of gcc _Mutex_ and adds heavy type and allocation checking. | Jun 14 14:19 |
| DaemonMDV | what did they put in? | Jun 14 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Drivers DaemonMDV | Jun 14 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Lots of drivers. | Jun 14 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Core code is smaller DaemonMDV | Jun 14 14:20 |
| DaemonMDV | sweet | Jun 14 14:20 |
| DaemonMDV | probably nothing I own | Jun 14 14:20 |
| DaemonMDV | but good for whoever has all that stuff I don't | Jun 14 14:20 |
| _Mutex_ | sounds interesting, type checking and allocation is good, as is global removal. and variable definitions in one huge include blob, really poor coding practice. | Jun 14 14:21 |
| schestowitz | The Beatles’ Surprise E3 Appearance < http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/06/01/the-beatles-surprise-e3-appearance/#mod=yahoo_hs > | Jun 14 14:21 |
| DaemonMDV | at this rate the kernel will be over 100 megs by this time next year | Jun 14 14:21 |
| DaemonMDV | the tarball that is | Jun 14 14:22 |
| schestowitz | SO? | Jun 14 14:22 |
| schestowitz | Looking for something to whine about? | Jun 14 14:22 |
| *DaemonMDV wonders when Stall Man will unveil HURD | Jun 14 14:22 | |
| schestowitz | Built it thinly if you need small footprint. | Jun 14 14:22 |
| schestowitz | Is that so hard? | Jun 14 14:22 |
| DaemonMDV | it doesn't really matter how big the source is | Jun 14 14:23 |
| schestowitz | Stallman doesn't live in a stall | Jun 14 14:23 |
| DaemonMDV | most of that is for other architectures or stuff I leave out or make into modules | Jun 14 14:23 |
| _Mutex_ | hard drives are big these days, OS's are still relatively small by comparison | Jun 14 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Its almost 400 meg extracted as source DaemonMDV | Jun 14 14:24 |
| DaemonMDV | if the whole kernel had to be loaded at once, distributions wouldn't be possible | Jun 14 14:24 |
| DaemonMDV | because they tend to put in everything as a module | Jun 14 14:24 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: big one was giving user space kernel space pointers. Really bad thing todo. | Jun 14 14:25 |
| DaemonMDV | there's really very few things that need to be compiled into the kernel image | Jun 14 14:25 |
| _Mutex_ | oh yes, sure is, seems like a security issue possibly as well. | Jun 14 14:25 |
| DaemonMDV | just the obvious stuff like keyboard and your mouse and display driver and enough to get it going | Jun 14 14:25 |
| _Mutex_ | rule 1 dont give userspace ANYTHING :) | Jun 14 14:25 |
| DaemonMDV | it can load the rest as needed if you make modules | Jun 14 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Particularly with the initrd filesystem. | Jun 14 14:25 |
| DaemonMDV | you don't need an initrd really | Jun 14 14:26 |
| DaemonMDV | just build the file system driver into the kernel | Jun 14 14:26 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Hardware drivers for odd hardware. | Jun 14 14:26 |
| DaemonMDV | it shaves a couple seconds off boot time | Jun 14 14:26 |
| oiaohm | At least in the initrd after you have got them you can bin it. | Jun 14 14:26 |
| DaemonMDV | if you want bragging rights :P | Jun 14 14:26 |
| DaemonMDV | what will be awesome is when they finally get rid of BIOS and move to EFI | Jun 14 14:27 |
| DaemonMDV | that will cut a few seconds off the boot time too | Jun 14 14:27 |
| DaemonMDV | eventually there will be no point in using suspend on Linux because it will boot in under 10 seconds anyway | Jun 14 14:28 |
| DaemonMDV | it'll come from a combination of things, EFI, no initrd, and SSD isntead of a hard disk | Jun 14 14:28 |
| schestowitz | http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/06/01/why-you-should-worry-about-research-in-motion.aspx "And if the market weren't crowded enough already, Microsoft (Nasdaq: MSFT) is working on a smartphone code-named "Pink." What do you want to bet that Verizon Wireless will carry that one, too?" | Jun 14 14:29 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, looking at come nice performance with that system, if configured well | Jun 14 14:29 |
| schestowitz | Ping and Bing sounds similar? Coincidence? | Jun 14 14:29 |
| _Mutex_ | Has anyone seen the PINK (singer) film clip with the penguins ? | Jun 14 14:29 |
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| _Mutex_ | Hot blond dancing near a pool with penguins | Jun 14 14:30 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Bing is also fully functional on Linux | Jun 14 14:30 |
| schestowitz | Pink is not hot | Jun 14 14:30 |
| DaemonMDV | might I suggest trying it with OpenSuse? | Jun 14 14:30 |
| DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 14 14:30 |
| schestowitz | She also seems kind of slutty | Jun 14 14:30 |
| _Mutex_ | I would not kick her out to get to you roy,, (sorry) :) | Jun 14 14:31 |
| schestowitz | And she's not blond, either | Jun 14 14:31 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey not natural, I would like to get confirmation on that though | Jun 14 14:31 |
| DaemonMDV | I feel truly sorry for anyone that tries to use OpenSuse | Jun 14 14:31 |
| DaemonMDV | it's such a clusterfuck user interface | Jun 14 14:31 |
| schestowitz | confirmation how? | Jun 14 14:31 |
| schestowitz | The old joke? | Jun 14 14:31 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, just watch some interview with these people | Jun 14 14:32 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL. might have to go in for a visual :) | Jun 14 14:32 |
| schestowitz | They are very narrow-minded | Jun 14 14:32 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: no, the joke is rude | Jun 14 14:33 |
| _Mutex_ | ok :) | Jun 14 14:33 |
| DaemonMDV | Mandriva seems to be weird with volume | Jun 14 14:33 |
| DaemonMDV | not every application is affected | Jun 14 14:33 |
| schestowitz | "Bing Is Now the Only Search Engine on IE6" http://seekingalpha.com/article/140955-bing-is-now-the-only-search-engine-on-ie6?source=yahoo | Jun 14 14:34 |
| DaemonMDV | but some aren't loud enough | Jun 14 14:34 |
| schestowitz | Where is the EU Commission? | Jun 14 14:34 |
| schestowitz | MS commits competition violations here | Jun 14 14:34 |
| schestowitz | What kind of person adjusts volumes per app? | Jun 14 14:34 |
| schestowitz | Maybe a few sound pros | Jun 14 14:35 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm not trying to | Jun 14 14:35 |
| schestowitz | No-one else cares | Jun 14 14:35 |
| DaemonMDV | it's just that I can't hear some DVDs | Jun 14 14:35 |
| DaemonMDV | no matter what I do with the volume | Jun 14 14:35 |
| schestowitz | Just use volume control on the app itself or master in the keyboard/lpyhsical speakers. | Jun 14 14:35 |
| DaemonMDV | I did | Jun 14 14:35 |
| DaemonMDV | I tried setting VLC at 400% | Jun 14 14:35 |
| DaemonMDV | still not loud enough | Jun 14 14:35 |
| schestowitz | See a doctor :-0) | Jun 14 14:35 |
| schestowitz | Van Gough syndrome | Jun 14 14:36 |
| DaemonMDV | Totem can play DVDs | Jun 14 14:36 |
| DaemonMDV | *shrugs | Jun 14 14:36 |
| DaemonMDV | just weird | Jun 14 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Not running pulseaudio by any chance and it stuffed up the VLC audio link. | Jun 14 14:36 |
| _Mutex_ | By post : | Jun 14 14:38 |
| _Mutex_ | European Personnel Selection Office | Jun 14 14:38 |
| _Mutex_ | Candidate contact service | Jun 14 14:38 |
| _Mutex_ | Office C-80 00/40 | Jun 14 14:38 |
| _Mutex_ | B-1049 Brussels | Jun 14 14:38 |
| DaemonMDV | seems like anything that uses Gstreamer is working fine | Jun 14 14:39 |
| DaemonMDV | more Pulseaudio strangeness | Jun 14 14:39 |
| DaemonMDV | I'll shit myself if they ever make Pulseaudio not suck | Jun 14 14:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Porn Search Blocked in Islamic Countries < http://ping.fm/hg0SX > Not good for share gains. | Jun 14 14:40 | |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: I can already smell you from here | Jun 14 14:42 |
| schestowitz | China: "The market is currently dominated by Baidu and Google, with respective market shares of 59% and 30.6%, according to Internet research firm Analysis International." http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/06/12/microsoft-launches-search-engine-for-china-but-dont-call-it-bing/ | Jun 14 14:43 |
| _Mutex_ | wonder if MS will cowtow to the chinese censorship ? | Jun 14 14:44 |
| oiaohm | I have a suspect DaemonMDV | Jun 14 14:44 |
| oiaohm | and its not pulseaudio this time. | Jun 14 14:45 |
| oiaohm | wrong version libasound libs. | Jun 14 14:45 |
| schestowitz | Most Computers MS sellout.. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=104170 | Jun 14 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Intel quietly boosting its software in bid to get chips into smartphones < http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009284455_btintelsoftware01.html > Haha! Intel in phone... yeah, right.. | Jun 14 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Gas-guzzling x86.. and Intel is worse at energy management than AMD | Jun 14 14:50 |
| kentma | schestowitz: why do the shills keep nymshifting, do you think, Roy? | Jun 14 14:51 |
| _Mutex_ | I wonder if there is a reason why chip makers make terrible software, but they did just acquire Windriver, that has a huge good reputation in the embedded world. | Jun 14 14:51 |
| _Mutex_ | so that will be their plan to leverage of wind River. | Jun 14 14:51 |
| _Mutex_ | who does have RTOS systems, | Jun 14 14:52 |
| _Mutex_ | and heaps more | Jun 14 14:52 |
| schestowitz | kentma: here? | Jun 14 14:53 |
| kentma | mmm? | Jun 14 14:53 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV might be trying to escape ingore lists | Jun 14 14:53 |
| schestowitz | kentma: some people like him here, some want him yanked | Jun 14 14:54 |
| kentma | probably. I wonder if we need regex capability for ignores? | Jun 14 14:54 |
| kentma | personally, I'd rather he weren't here, but I'm happy to /ignore. | Jun 14 14:54 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: don't change your name anymore | Jun 14 14:54 |
| schestowitz | And use something like ryan perhaps so that bad language will carry a liability with you | Jun 14 14:55 |
| kentma | yeah... | Jun 14 14:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Russia's action vs MS is weird because they first made a weak allegations re: xp and now it's about bundling. http://ping.fm/DTMyO | Jun 14 14:55 | |
| kentma | BNc: Russia plays to different rules. | Jun 14 14:56 |
| _Mutex_ | are you refering to me kentma ?? | Jun 14 14:56 |
| DaemonMDV | ugggh | Jun 14 14:56 |
| DaemonMDV | speaking of which | Jun 14 14:56 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm trying to navigate through a site written in Russian | Jun 14 14:57 |
| DaemonMDV | with the help of Google Translate in the other tab | Jun 14 14:57 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 14 14:58 |
| DaemonMDV | bingo | Jun 14 14:58 |
| _Mutex_ | I tried BING's translator earlier from french, it did an OK job, nothing to write home about, its got a ways to go. | Jun 14 14:58 |
| schestowitz | kentma: Chips was right when he called it shillflood or something | Jun 14 14:58 |
| schestowitz | It's about drowning out the signal | Jun 14 14:58 |
| DaemonMDV | Nom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère. | Jun 14 14:59 |
| DaemonMDV | ;) | Jun 14 14:59 |
| kentma | schestowitz: presumably, the disastrous results in Redmond are prompting ever greater panic attacks on the rest of us. | Jun 14 14:59 |
| schestowitz | Yes, they are stressed | Jun 14 14:59 |
| schestowitz | Some just leave the company | Jun 14 14:59 |
| kentma | I've often thought that cola could use a "standard" killfile, and probably this channel could use a standard /ignore file :-) | Jun 14 14:59 |
| schestowitz | Including UK heads | Jun 14 14:59 |
| kentma | schestowitz: it's game over for MS now. | Jun 14 15:00 |
| DaemonMDV | ugggh | Jun 14 15:00 |
| schestowitz | Standard /ingore | Jun 14 15:00 |
| _Mutex_ | sure it is:) | Jun 14 15:00 |
| schestowitz | I don't quite follow | Jun 14 15:00 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: it is | Jun 14 15:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Philippines is still without a head. Disarray. A few other countries suffered similar fate (India, Singapore, SA...). http://p ... | Jun 14 15:00 | |
| DaemonMDV | remind me to back this stuff up when if finishes crossing the Atlantic | Jun 14 15:00 |
| _Mutex_ | ok, has their stock price crashed ? | Jun 14 15:00 |
| kentma | but it's interesting watching the death throes. | Jun 14 15:01 |
| schestowitz | Hhaha | Jun 14 15:01 |
| schestowitz | They pump their money into it | Jun 14 15:01 |
| kentma | BNc: :-) | Jun 14 15:01 |
| schestowitz | That's not working | Jun 14 15:01 |
| DaemonMDV | the fucking RIAA made them stop selling this and so it's a fortune on eBay | Jun 14 15:01 |
| DaemonMDV | don't ask | Jun 14 15:01 |
| schestowitz | BNc is just a bot that takes Twitter msgs from BN folks | Jun 14 15:01 |
| kentma | If I were a shill, I'd be looking for another job about now, rather than wasting my time polluting IRC channels and usenet groups and so on. | Jun 14 15:01 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: watch your language | Jun 14 15:02 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: MS valuation sank | Jun 14 15:02 |
| schestowitz | Their savings are nullified | Jun 14 15:02 |
| schestowitz | They BORROW money | Jun 14 15:02 |
| schestowitz | BORROW | Jun 14 15:02 |
| schestowitz | Why? | Jun 14 15:02 |
| schestowitz | They won't say | Jun 14 15:02 |
| DaemonMDV | that is suspicious | Jun 14 15:02 |
| kentma | desperation? I would imagine that the really senior folk are paying themselves enormous bonuses about now, and the middle and junior management will find themselves in P.45-land soon. | Jun 14 15:03 |
| DaemonMDV | why does a company that sells nothing for outrageous amounts of money need to borrow anything from anyone? | Jun 14 15:03 |
| kentma | They can pay themselves bonsuses from loans, and MS can chapter 11 in 3-5 years and they won't care. | Jun 14 15:03 |
| oiaohm | oss from vlc works fine DaemonMDV | Jun 14 15:03 |
| schestowitz | kentma: exactly | Jun 14 15:03 |
| DaemonMDV | good point | Jun 14 15:03 |
| schestowitz | BillG and steveB have their money | Jun 14 15:03 |
| schestowitz | Probably in some Swiss bank account in Steveb's case | Jun 14 15:04 |
| _Mutex_ | their stock price right now is spiking upwards, 12pm it was 22.75 by 4PM its 23.22 (UP 0.50) and climing | Jun 14 15:04 |
| oiaohm | Its something in the alsa stack that kinda strange DaemonMDV | Jun 14 15:04 |
| schestowitz | Gates does not pay tax | Jun 14 15:04 |
| DaemonMDV | so they know they're screwed and are using the company as their own personal piggy bank | Jun 14 15:04 |
| schestowitz | He operated a Rockefeller scam ATM | Jun 14 15:04 |
| DaemonMDV | on the way down | Jun 14 15:04 |
| schestowitz | *rates | Jun 14 15:04 |
| kentma | Rich enough to be a parasite. | Jun 14 15:04 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: who cared about FraudStreet? | Jun 14 15:05 |
| kentma | anyway, guests arriving for PM barbecue (my co-governors and senior staff from the school) - should be fun :-) | Jun 14 15:05 |
| DaemonMDV | meh, I don't even care about them making off with investors money, cause in this theoretical, we'd be rid of them | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Have people learned nothing about how the market (does not) work? | Jun 14 15:05 |
| DaemonMDV | and none of it was my money | Jun 14 15:05 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Buybacks.. | Jun 14 15:05 |
| kentma | c u l8r, as my kids sms to me :-) | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Toss some money at the stock | Jun 14 15:05 |
| DaemonMDV | how does it get any better than that? | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Borrow money, see the stock rise | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Bribe Moody's | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | They sell recommendations | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Got caught by Kucinich | Jun 14 15:05 |
| schestowitz | kentma: no doom tournaments? | Jun 14 15:06 |
| _Mutex_ | so how long have they got ?? | Jun 14 15:07 |
| DaemonMDV | oh nice | Jun 14 15:07 |
| DaemonMDV | file roller won't tell you that the extraction failed cause there was a password | Jun 14 15:07 |
| DaemonMDV | it just tells you it failed | Jun 14 15:07 |
| DaemonMDV | that helps | Jun 14 15:07 |
| schestowitz | Cuba slams Microsoft censorship http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184454/cuba-slams-microsoft-censorship | Jun 14 15:07 |
| schestowitz | MSFT won't be liquidated any time soon | Jun 14 15:07 |
| schestowitz | Too many corrupted politicians that can buy them bailout | Jun 14 15:08 |
| _Mutex_ | I tend to agree | Jun 14 15:08 |
| schestowitz | Like the one Ballmer begged for 8 months ago | Jun 14 15:08 |
| _Mutex_ | have they asked for a bailout ? I have not heard of one. | Jun 14 15:08 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 14 15:08 |
| schestowitz | Several times | Jun 14 15:08 |
| schestowitz | First time in Oct. | Jun 14 15:08 |
| _Mutex_ | really, link ? | Jun 14 15:08 |
| schestowitz | Just after the massive crash | Jun 14 15:08 |
| _Mutex_ | what a TARP type bailout ?? | Jun 14 15:08 |
| schestowitz | The second-biggest after Black Monday (was it called that?) | Jun 14 15:09 |
| _Mutex_ | wasnt that in 87? | Jun 14 15:09 |
| schestowitz | Let me get the URLs | Jun 14 15:09 |
| *tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 14 15:09 | |
| _Mutex_ | picked it in one | Jun 14 15:09 |
| _Mutex_ | thats almost 20 years ago Roy | Jun 14 15:09 |
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| oiaohm | What version asound do you have DaemonMDV. I guess like me not 1.0.20 | Jun 14 15:10 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft calls on Congress to reconsider bailout http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10053774-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 | Jun 14 15:11 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer: Congress must 'stabilize' financial crisis http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10054252-75.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 | Jun 14 15:11 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer says Microsoft not immune from global crisis http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080930/bs_nm/us_microsoft_ballmer;_ylt=Au5VO.rh_OuPGHCBr9O.m4K573QA | Jun 14 15:11 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft loses 90 Billion Dollars http://slated.org/microsoft_loses_90_billion_dollars | Jun 14 15:11 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft's Market Cap Falls $24B in 17 Days http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/microsofts_market_cap_falls_24b_in_two_weeks.html?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535 | Jun 14 15:11 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft's Accounting Under Scrutiny http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E1DC173DF932A35754C0A96F958260 | Jun 14 15:12 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Agrees To Refrain From Accounting Violations in SEC Settlement http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18819490 | Jun 14 15:12 |
| schestowitz | SEC Investigating Microsoft Practices -- Earnings Manipulated, Former Employee Contends http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19990701&slug=2969514 | Jun 14 15:12 |
| _Mutex_ | you read those Roy ?? they are calling for congress to re-evaluate the bailouts for other companies, from what I see, not for themselves. but to help boost the economy in general. they are talking about TARP type bailouts, but not for MS. | Jun 14 15:15 |
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| _Mutex_ | they were talking aobut the $700 bil bail out money that congress rejected, its not MS asking for $700 billion !! | Jun 14 15:16 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: without other companies MS does not have sales. | Jun 14 15:18 |
| _Mutex_ | exactly, its in MS's interest and the rest of america that your economy is strong, but claiming MS requested bailout money is not accurate, 5 seconds of reading the first link clearly states that. | Jun 14 15:19 |
| _Mutex_ | its also in RH's interest, and every other company in the US and probably many overseas ones as well, its a stimulus package, to kick start the economy. MS just tried to help get it through for the good of everyone. | Jun 14 15:21 |
| _Mutex_ | especially if you live and work in the US. | Jun 14 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Problem here USA is taking out more debt to make the package. | Jun 14 15:23 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, it sure is, but the US is usually in deficet | Jun 14 15:24 |
| _Mutex_ | except ofcourse at the end of the clinton terms, you had a net surplus at that time. | Jun 14 15:25 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 15:25 |
| DaemonMDV | he used accounting tricks | Jun 14 15:25 |
| _Mutex_ | But making statements that MS requested bailout many, when 5 seconds of research show they didnt does not help BN rep IMO | Jun 14 15:25 |
| DaemonMDV | and the bubble he created with NAFTA | Jun 14 15:25 |
| DaemonMDV | Clinton sold us down the river | Jun 14 15:26 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, I understand the success of clinton is directly proportional to whether you liked him or not. but they did have a large surplus | Jun 14 15:26 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 14 15:26 |
| DaemonMDV | they used accounting tricks | Jun 14 15:26 |
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| DaemonMDV | like stealing from Social Security to pay external debt | Jun 14 15:26 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey so, but if he did Bush sold you over the waterfall, and through the rapids | Jun 14 15:27 |
| DaemonMDV | I didn't say I liked Bush any more than I like Clinton | Jun 14 15:27 |
| _Mutex_ | oh, your ss systems is a bit sucky. | Jun 14 15:27 |
| DaemonMDV | they were both a disaster | Jun 14 15:27 |
| DaemonMDV | just in different packaging | Jun 14 15:27 |
| _Mutex_ | but you cant spend $10 bil per month on a war for 10 years and not do huge damage to the economy either. | Jun 14 15:28 |
| DaemonMDV | obviously | Jun 14 15:28 |
| DaemonMDV | but Obama isn't doing anything to end the war | Jun 14 15:28 |
| DaemonMDV | he's making it worse | Jun 14 15:28 |
| DaemonMDV | he's committing more resources to occupy Afghanistan | Jun 14 15:29 |
| _Mutex_ | he said he would but congress is screwing him over, in closing gitmo | Jun 14 15:29 |
| DaemonMDV | and not actually taking anyone out of Iraq | Jun 14 15:29 |
| DaemonMDV | bullshit | Jun 14 15:29 |
| DaemonMDV | he's the Commander in Chief | Jun 14 15:29 |
| DaemonMDV | he could order it shut | Jun 14 15:29 |
| DaemonMDV | and he's hiding behind the "Congress won't let me" excuse | Jun 14 15:29 |
| DaemonMDV | no, if he wanted it closed, it would already be boarded up by now | Jun 14 15:30 |
| _Mutex_ | if he can get the money from somewhere else, I believe it was only about 88 mil, chicken feed. | Jun 14 15:30 |
| _Mutex_ | Yes, i tend to agree Daemon | Jun 14 15:30 |
| DaemonMDV | and how much does it cost to operate? | Jun 14 15:30 |
| DaemonMDV | see, we can play these little "I love Obama because he's such a crafty liar" games all day | Jun 14 15:31 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 15:31 |
| _Mutex_ | I have no idea, and i bet its not public knowledge either | Jun 14 15:31 |
| DaemonMDV | truth is, we were screwed over no matter who won the election | Jun 14 15:31 |
| DaemonMDV | and maybe just a tad more with McCain | Jun 14 15:31 |
| DaemonMDV | the forces operating this country would never bankroll the campaign of a candidate they didn't already own | Jun 14 15:32 |
| DaemonMDV | Obama is just a salesman for the agenda of the banking cartel | Jun 14 15:32 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Buys Rosetta Assets http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/406859.html | Jun 14 15:33 |
| DaemonMDV | tell me how he and McCain pulled together $1.4 BILLION to campaign on without the help of some unsavory people | Jun 14 15:33 |
| DaemonMDV | I'm waiting... | Jun 14 15:33 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 15:33 |
| DaemonMDV | it wasn't $5 at a time from individual Americans | Jun 14 15:34 |
| _Mutex_ | the massive internet campain would of helped, but I dont know, I know there are laws limiting donations, and yes I know they can be worked around. | Jun 14 15:34 |
| DaemonMDV | it was bribes and kickbacks and laundered money | Jun 14 15:34 |
| DaemonMDV | from special interests | Jun 14 15:34 |
| schestowitz | <_Mutex_> But making statements that MS requested bailout many, when 5 seconds of research show they didnt does not help BN rep IMO | Jun 14 15:34 |
| _Mutex_ | So it was not for sure. | Jun 14 15:34 |
| schestowitz | I didn't make such a statement | Jun 14 15:34 |
| schestowitz | I said they lobbies for bailout | Jun 14 15:34 |
| schestowitz | *bbied | Jun 14 15:35 |
| schestowitz | Which they did | Jun 14 15:35 |
| schestowitz | And added more links for context | Jun 14 15:35 |
| _Mutex_ | but not for them, for everyone else. | Jun 14 15:35 |
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| DaemonMDV | a lot of the special interests donated to McCain AND Obama | Jun 14 15:35 |
| DaemonMDV | to make sure they had the ear of whoever won | Jun 14 15:35 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, i agree they wanted to boost the economy, fair enought too. | Jun 14 15:35 |
| DaemonMDV | the Carlyl and Bilderbergs donated largely to McCain, and the illegal immigration, pharmaceuticals, and RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft to Obama | Jun 14 15:36 |
| DaemonMDV | but all of them played both sides to some extent | Jun 14 15:36 |
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| DaemonMDV | Republicans vs. Democrats = Whoever wins, we lose | Jun 14 15:37 |
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| DaemonMDV | brb | Jun 14 15:38 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft runs Anti-Google Whisper Campaign http://ping.fm/OJhOI | Jun 14 15:40 | |
| _Mutex_ | sorry Roy , i thought you said "Too many corrupted politicians that can buy them bailout, like the one ballmer begged for 8 months ago" I read that as MS were begging for a bailout 8 months ago, from the corrup pollies that can buy them a bailout. sorry I mis-understood. | Jun 14 15:41 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft trying to rescue SCO's lawsuit? http://ping.fm/p3TDi | Jun 14 15:45 | |
| schestowitz | Girl Scouts selling out to Microsoft for cash... http://tinyurl.com/nmunvh | Jun 14 15:56 |
| DaemonMDV | oh come on schestowitz, Girl Scout Patents, also available in Thin Mint | Jun 14 15:58 |
| schestowitz | "Acer to offer Google's Android in netbook PCs" | Jun 14 15:59 |
| schestowitz | Signs of erosion | Jun 14 16:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Democracy democracy Tiananmen democracy democracy Tiananmen democracy Tiananmen democracy http://ping.fm/k2loi | Jun 14 16:00 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New PCs, no Windows. Watch this video: http://ping.fm/w7jtt | Jun 14 16:00 | |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu is developing android compatibility layer | Jun 14 16:02 |
| DaemonMDV | shows you they feel threatened by it | Jun 14 16:02 |
| schestowitz | Of course they are | Jun 14 16:02 |
| schestowitz | THeir business plan was to sell Remix | Jun 14 16:02 |
| schestowitz | GM's Demise Dooms Sirius < http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=13776184&src=finance&ch=633473 > | Jun 14 16:02 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Penguin Liberation Front is down | Jun 14 16:04 |
| DaemonMDV | server failure | Jun 14 16:04 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reuters: Android Gains on Microsoft < http://ping.fm/Yyq5l > | Jun 14 16:05 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GOOG's Android to Break Windows? < http://ping.fm/PFhBc > | Jun 14 16:05 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft has a fairly new 'shill site' for virtualisation (look at the publishers trail, notice bias): http://ping.fm/m84uR | Jun 14 16:10 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle could sell Linux netbooks: http://ping.fm/UuUtB | Jun 14 16:10 | |
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| _Mutex_ | google 12 months ago $570 today $421 so a stock price drop of $149 in 12 months thats a fair bit. | Jun 14 16:11 |
| schestowitz | Very little compared to general trne | Jun 14 16:13 |
| schestowitz | Google is no Linux, either | Jun 14 16:13 |
| schestowitz | It's stupifying when people draw comparisons like MSFT vs IBM|Google to imply that GNU+Linux+FOSS is just one company | Jun 14 16:13 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft would LOVE it if all of FOSS was just a company to buy or assassinate | Jun 14 16:14 |
| schestowitz | We are stronger apart | Jun 14 16:14 |
| schestowitz | THey mess up GNOME? | Jun 14 16:14 |
| schestowitz | No problem. We have KDE, so they won't bother disrupting | Jun 14 16:14 |
| schestowitz | They sign a patent deal with Xandros. Then Xandros will perish | Jun 14 16:14 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Missouri turns students to Microsoft customers, whether they like it or not http://ping.fm/2CXRN | Jun 14 16:15 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] How many more #Microsoft Twitter accounts are there going to be? and how many more are going to follow me? #windows #vista | Jun 14 16:15 | |
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| DaemonMDV | http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/mandriva-users-penguin-liberation-front-is-downserver-failure/ | Jun 14 16:16 |
| DaemonMDV | there we go | Jun 14 16:16 |
| DaemonMDV | that should help anyone that Googles wondering what happened | Jun 14 16:16 |
| _Mutex_ | they can always say no,, (unles its a hostile takeover, which MS has not done), otherwise saying no is always an option, you need agreement between the buyer and the seller, so if one or the other does not like the deal, (like yahoo) they so no. | Jun 14 16:16 |
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| schestowitz | Google CEO: “It’s not the first entry for Microsoft, They do this about once a year. From Bing’s perspective, they have a bunch of new ideas and there are some things that are missing. We think search is about comprehensiveness, freshness, scale and size for what we do. It’s difficult for them to copy that.” | Jun 14 16:18 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: check out http://finance.yahoo.com/news/What-An-AntiGoogle-Whisper-siliconalley-15415021.html?.v=5 | Jun 14 16:19 |
| _Goblin | checking now... | Jun 14 16:19 |
| _Mutex_ | even hostile takeovers are not really "hostile" its just a term, for buying the business off the steakholders (share holders) instead of the management | Jun 14 16:19 |
| neighborlee | google going down is like saying people will stop eating LOL | Jun 14 16:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] We have the #socialmedia Twitter #spam, now the #Microsoft #windows #vista spammers. Let's see who bites on this tweet. | Jun 14 16:20 | |
| schestowitz | http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090609-716131.html | Jun 14 16:21 |
| _Goblin | wow...a few revelations there... | Jun 14 16:21 |
| _Mutex_ | in the current financial climate, companies like google who get most of their revinue through advertising, will be feeling the pinch as business cut back on advertising budgets. but its only a short term problem. | Jun 14 16:21 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jun 14 16:22 |
| schestowitz | I've just realised that Bartz rhymes with fartz | Jun 14 16:24 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, what did you drink this morning..I want some if its safe o_0 | Jun 14 16:24 |
| _Mutex_ | even if its not safe :) | Jun 14 16:24 |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jun 14 16:25 |
| schestowitz | No drinks, sorry | Jun 14 16:25 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 16:25 |
| schestowitz | But I don't like Bartz | Jun 14 16:25 |
| schestowitz | She's a former partner of MS | Jun 14 16:25 |
| neighborlee | yeah well bout all I do is wine..grape juice and topped off with small bits of wine..thats my danger zone , high as it gets <har> | Jun 14 16:25 |
| neighborlee | ahhh | Jun 14 16:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_Goblin: yes, Microsoft pays Federated Media and Waggener Endstrom (where Ballmer's wife is from) to Turf' Twitter. | Jun 14 16:25 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @davidgerard We have the #socialmedia Twitter #spam, now the #Microsoft #windows #vista spammers. Let's see who bites on this tweet. | Jun 14 16:25 | |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: it's a harmful drug | Jun 14 16:27 |
| schestowitz | And AFAIK not very effective | Jun 14 16:27 |
| _Mutex_ | all the good ones are | Jun 14 16:27 |
| _Mutex_ | well the fun ones anyway | Jun 14 16:27 |
| schestowitz | But alcohol is the only drug I occasionally do. Never tried anything else.. | Jun 14 16:27 |
| _Mutex_ | good for you, im glad, :) | Jun 14 16:27 |
| neighborlee | bad for you today..good tomorrow..thats how things go these days :)) | Jun 14 16:29 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, alcohol is pretty weak in the grand scheme of things | Jun 14 16:29 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 16:29 |
| neighborlee | small amounts of wine..'moderation' are fine. | Jun 14 16:29 |
| neighborlee | ask the italians :) | Jun 14 16:29 |
| _Mutex_ | even good for you, all those nice anti-oxidents (whatever they are) :) | Jun 14 16:29 |
| neighborlee | thats what ive heard yes | Jun 14 16:29 |
| schestowitz | In moderation, maybe. | Jun 14 16:30 |
| schestowitz | But it's disputed | Jun 14 16:30 |
| *DaemonMDV wonders why font smoothing seems smoother in Mandriva Firefox | Jun 14 16:30 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Iranian election: Mission accomplished http://notnews.today.com/?p=522 | Jun 14 16:30 | |
| schestowitz | http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2005/12/03/glass-wine-a-day/ | Jun 14 16:30 |
| schestowitz | If it sounds like wishful thinking, it usually is. A lot of junk-science thrives out there. | Jun 14 16:31 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey cleartype is enabled ? | Jun 14 16:31 |
| neighborlee | http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/wine-how-much-is-good-for-you <is this coming up realllllllllllly slow for anyone else | Jun 14 16:32 |
| _Mutex_ | I cant get it at all !! | Jun 14 16:34 |
| neighborlee | hmmm wine makes you less obese ;00..hey thats a keeper right there ;) | Jun 14 16:34 |
| neighborlee | weird | Jun 14 16:34 |
| schestowitz | How to Fix Microsoft for $5 Billion < http://seekingalpha.com/article/141090-how-to-fix-microsoft-for-5-billion?source=yahoo > "Disclosure: I currently own MSFT and TSCM." | Jun 14 16:34 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL I like your thinking Neighborlee :) | Jun 14 16:34 |
| neighborlee | ha | Jun 14 16:34 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is already borrowing that kind of amounts. Maybe it wants to fix itself | Jun 14 16:34 |
| schestowitz | > hmmm wine makes you less obese | Jun 14 16:35 |
| schestowitz | "less obese | Jun 14 16:35 |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jun 14 16:35 |
| schestowitz | Like half pregnant, almost | Jun 14 16:35 |
| schestowitz | Thin elephant | Jun 14 16:35 |
| _Mutex_ | $5 Billion, isnt that Bill Gates walking around money ? | Jun 14 16:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Low quality Internet Explorer makes your computer unsafe: http://digg.com/d1tn5Z?t | Jun 14 16:35 | |
| maxstirner | nice | Jun 14 16:36 |
| neighborlee | Alcohol also can have a very powerful effect and increase HDL "good" cholesterol by 20% if used moderately and in the context of a healthy diet along with regular physical activity | Jun 14 16:37 |
| neighborlee | ^ from webMD article | Jun 14 16:37 |
| schestowitz | Fake Microsoft E-Mail Carries Real Malware < http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3823481/Fake+Microsoft+EMail+Carries+Real+Malware.htm > | Jun 14 16:37 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] U.S. Layoffs Mount < http://ping.fm/5XPGY > Ballmer Threatens Obama, Says He'll Move Jobs Overseas < http://ping.fm/Gcac2 > | Jun 14 16:40 | |
| _Mutex_ | thats fairly old news :) | Jun 14 16:41 |
| schestowitz | it is | Jun 14 16:41 |
| *schestowitz catches up with MSFT news | Jun 14 16:41 | |
| schestowitz | 700 down, about 700 to do | Jun 14 16:41 |
| schestowitz | *go | Jun 14 16:41 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL good luck, rest your eyes :) | Jun 14 16:41 |
| schestowitz | http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aliF6UqTf41g&refer=india | Jun 14 16:41 |
| schestowitz | I just glance at headlines | Jun 14 16:42 |
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| schestowitz | Valve Fans Form Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott Group < http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92174-Valve-Fans-Form-Left-4-Dead-2-Boycott-Group > | Jun 14 16:42 |
| neighborlee | that ballmer thing must be a joke | Jun 14 16:43 |
| neighborlee | please tell me its a joke ;) | Jun 14 16:43 |
| schestowitz | "This week at the Computex 2009 conference in Taiwan, Microsoft said it believes the term "netbook" should be abandoned in favor of "low-cost small notebook PC" in order to better reflect the fact that today's netbooks include broad functionality that goes beyond Web browsing. " http://www.crn.com/software/217701707;jsessionid=52FBACX1MBMUCQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JVN | Jun 14 16:44 |
| neighborlee | cause the laughable meter just PEGGED hard ;0- | Jun 14 16:44 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: no, it's not news either | Jun 14 16:44 |
| schestowitz | Mcirosoft has been doing this for years | Jun 14 16:44 |
| schestowitz | Fraud with Abramoff and others | Jun 14 16:44 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 16:44 |
| schestowitz | Ensuring they get cheap labourt | Jun 14 16:44 |
| schestowitz | GlobaliSFT | Jun 14 16:44 |
| neighborlee | yes I know | Jun 14 16:44 |
| neighborlee | self evident especially with 360 support.partially why it went back to store ;)) | Jun 14 16:45 |
| neighborlee | well along with high price of ownership ;) | Jun 14 16:45 |
| DaemonMDV | lmao@the pic | Jun 14 16:46 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.escapistmagazine.com/images/display/57670.jpg | Jun 14 16:47 |
| schestowitz | But the USian politicians have always been behind the curve and behind Microsoft. | Jun 14 16:48 |
| DaemonMDV | Steam is LETTING the boycott page stay up? | Jun 14 16:48 |
| DaemonMDV | on THEIR site? | Jun 14 16:48 |
| DaemonMDV | whoa | Jun 14 16:48 |
| neighborlee | well unlike some..they allow freedom of ahem..expression apparantly ;) | Jun 14 16:49 |
| schestowitz | I don't get the deal with satanic-themed games | Jun 14 16:49 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, sorry that was too easy and resistance was futile o_0 | Jun 14 16:49 |
| schestowitz | Are people lured into death and such things? | Jun 14 16:49 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Doom 3 was....alright | Jun 14 16:49 |
| DaemonMDV | worth the $20 | Jun 14 16:49 |
| schestowitz | I ran it on Linux... demo..? | Jun 14 16:49 |
| DaemonMDV | I really bought it more cause Linux games are rare | Jun 14 16:49 |
| DaemonMDV | and good ones are even moreso | Jun 14 16:50 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, imo its a expression of anger | Jun 14 16:50 |
| schestowitz | http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/05/1243220 | Jun 14 16:50 |
| schestowitz | Masochism | Jun 14 16:50 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: More of a tradition really | Jun 14 16:50 |
| DaemonMDV | I've bought every id Software title since the original DOOM | Jun 14 16:50 |
| schestowitz | "Show you manhood. Kill... things." | Jun 14 16:50 |
| DaemonMDV | there was just nothing like it on PC til that point | Jun 14 16:51 |
| DaemonMDV | graphics wise it really catapulted the game industry forward | Jun 14 16:51 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, war training better still | Jun 14 16:51 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, look at the top games being played on gamespy servers...mainly all war games | Jun 14 16:51 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: At least John Carmack always releases his engines | Jun 14 16:51 |
| DaemonMDV | as GPL | Jun 14 16:51 |
| DaemonMDV | when he's done with them | Jun 14 16:51 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, same for top game list at like gamespot and such... | Jun 14 16:51 |
| DaemonMDV | that's made a lot of Linux games possible | Jun 14 16:51 |
| neighborlee | yes ID has been great in that regard | Jun 14 16:52 |
| DaemonMDV | so Doom 3 engine will be GPL free software at some point in the next few years | Jun 14 16:52 |
| schestowitz | "Windows guy" (by admission) Mike Elgan lobbies for the Vole Mike http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/features/article.php/3823411/Microsoft-vs-the-EU-When-Antitrust-is-Anti-Competitive.htm | Jun 14 16:52 |
| DaemonMDV | and Linux community will patch it up and give it a makeover | Jun 14 16:52 |
| DaemonMDV | and make tons more games off of it | Jun 14 16:52 |
| DaemonMDV | I think the only original open source 3d game engine with Linux in mind is Cube 2 | Jun 14 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Blender makes models | Jun 14 16:53 |
| DaemonMDV | well Cube and Cube 2 | Jun 14 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Toss some waaaabits in there | Jun 14 16:53 |
| schestowitz | And a Big Buck | Jun 14 16:54 |
| DaemonMDV | then distros snub it cause he won't release his artwork | Jun 14 16:54 |
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| DaemonMDV | so I end up compiling it myself | Jun 14 16:54 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu and Debian package it | Jun 14 16:54 |
| schestowitz | http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3823391/Report+Microsoft+Phases+Out+13+Products.htm Report: Microsoft Phases Out 13 Products - it's already at least 15 and that's a LOWER bound | Jun 14 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | Mandriva and Fedora don't | Jun 14 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | OpenSuse does | Jun 14 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | oh well, I always keep GCC around anyway | Jun 14 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | never know when it will be useful | Jun 14 16:55 |
| DaemonMDV | kernel-linus causes problems with dbus in GNOME | Jun 14 16:56 |
| DaemonMDV | on Mandriva anyway | Jun 14 16:56 |
| DaemonMDV | I wonder what that's all about | Jun 14 16:56 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft will save America... http://kliv.com/Microsoft-CEO-threatens-deeper-job-cuts-if-new-tax/4534103 | Jun 14 16:56 |
| neighborlee | kewl..maybe they will go find jobs with companies that are ethical ;) | Jun 14 16:57 |
| DaemonMDV | Red Hat has picked up a few former Microsoft programmers iirc | Jun 14 16:58 |
| DaemonMDV | of course Red Hat eats up programmers from every software company with a brand name | Jun 14 16:58 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 16:58 |
| DaemonMDV | they got Adam Williamson after Mandriva laid him off | Jun 14 16:59 |
| neighborlee | true that | Jun 14 16:59 |
| schestowitz | "Google: Citi Pounds The Table, Boosts Target To $580" http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/06/04/google-citi-pounds-the-table-boosts-target-to-580/#mod=yahoobarrons | Jun 14 16:59 |
| DaemonMDV | I hope Mandriva isn't getting ready to go bankrupt again | Jun 14 16:59 |
| DaemonMDV | that would be a real loss | Jun 14 16:59 |
| neighborlee | its one of my favorite distro period...has been for sometime | Jun 14 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Who in Red Hat is from MSFT? | Jun 14 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Give names | Jun 14 17:00 |
| neighborlee | I love urpm* tools...always loved it for finding header files | Jun 14 17:00 |
| schestowitz | Or else it's bunk | Jun 14 17:00 |
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| DaemonMDV | trying to look it up | Jun 14 17:01 |
| DaemonMDV | remind me to bookmark everything | Jun 14 17:01 |
| schestowitz | Bigger companies distribute Linux now | Jun 14 17:01 |
| DaemonMDV | just every page I visit | Jun 14 17:01 |
| schestowitz | IBM, Google, Oracle.. | Jun 14 17:01 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, IBM does RHEL and Suse | Jun 14 17:01 |
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| DaemonMDV | my dad ended up buying OpenSuse box sets cause it's what he was used to from work | Jun 14 17:02 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 17:02 |
| DaemonMDV | I ended up having to save his system from ReiserFS when it ate his root partition | Jun 14 17:02 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 17:02 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft to locate offices in St. Paul" http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2009/06/01/daily36.html | Jun 14 17:02 |
| maxstirner | http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/06/13/im-fed-with-mono/ <- beranger is getting slashdotted or ddosed due to his mono post :D | Jun 14 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | turns out Reiser is not very fault tolerant and a bitch to repair | Jun 14 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | it even lets you use the "repair internal structure" option | Jun 14 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | with no warning | Jun 14 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | which sounds like a good idea til you do it | Jun 14 17:03 |
| DaemonMDV | after that you're lucky if there's anything left to salvage | Jun 14 17:04 |
| the linux hater writes about mono? ugh | Jun 14 17:04 | |
| _Mutex_ | thats been up for a couple of days I think. I did not think it would take him long. | Jun 14 17:05 |
| DaemonMDV | Suse still supports any Resier partitions you have | Jun 14 17:05 |
| tacone | twitter: lol | Jun 14 17:05 |
| DaemonMDV | but won't let you make new ones | Jun 14 17:05 |
| DaemonMDV | *Reiser | Jun 14 17:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Some compatibility is more backward than others. http://is.gd/11K3C | Jun 14 17:05 | |
| gerard is very funny | Jun 14 17:06 | |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: excellent, thank you | Jun 14 17:06 |
| schestowitz | twitter: linux hater is a friend of Miguel | Jun 14 17:06 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: You could crash Windows 98 by typing C:\con\con | Jun 14 17:06 |
| schestowitz | At least they know each other | Jun 14 17:06 |
| DaemonMDV | into Explorer | Jun 14 17:06 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 17:06 |
| schestowitz | So know what to expect | Jun 14 17:06 |
| DaemonMDV | IE also let web pages load local folders in iframes | Jun 14 17:07 |
| DaemonMDV | so you could crash someones PC by loading C:\con\con in an iframe | Jun 14 17:07 |
| schestowitz | LOL | Jun 14 17:07 |
| DaemonMDV | and the thing was | Jun 14 17:08 |
| DaemonMDV | it only crashed IE users | Jun 14 17:08 |
| DaemonMDV | because only IE understood it | Jun 14 17:08 |
| schestowitz | Ping of death... | Jun 14 17:08 |
| schestowitz | Malicious 10100110010101010101010100101 | Jun 14 17:08 |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-46-235.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 17:09 | |
| DaemonMDV | Windows has had some rather horrendous and obviously stupid an simple exploits in the past, at least there haven't been any C:\con\con's or port nukes in Vista | Jun 14 17:09 |
| http://www.linuxplus.net/2009/06/14/im-fed-up-with-mono/ has parts of it | Jun 14 17:09 | |
| DaemonMDV | maybe it has improved? | Jun 14 17:09 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 17:09 |
| Carla Schroder should not have stepped into that one. | Jun 14 17:09 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Money....... http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/new-atm-malware-captures-pins-and-cash/ | Jun 14 17:09 |
| schestowitz | Not yours, the criminals' | Jun 14 17:09 |
| All the snakes are biting her for trying to be fair. | Jun 14 17:09 | |
| schestowitz | Really? | Jun 14 17:10 |
| schestowitz | Well, she never liked Mono | Jun 14 17:10 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: There were also spyware peddlers that used the ifrome trick to load your My Documents folder in IE and say "See, we can see your files, you need our security software" | Jun 14 17:10 |
| schestowitz | But she tried to look impartial | Jun 14 17:10 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 17:10 |
| DaemonMDV | *iframe | Jun 14 17:10 |
| " I was exceedingly pissed off by a long pro-Mono plea by Jo Shields, which I have read as posted by Carla Schroder. I can’t comment on it, as I don’t want to read it again. It hurts my guts." | Jun 14 17:10 | |
| DaemonMDV | the software would be like $30 | Jun 14 17:10 |
| Berenger | Jun 14 17:10 | |
| DaemonMDV | and flick a registry setting off | Jun 14 17:11 |
| neighborlee | beranger is timintout | Jun 14 17:11 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* | Jun 14 17:11 |
| schestowitz | Bergy.. | Jun 14 17:11 |
| DaemonMDV | so IE couldn't load local folders anymore | Jun 14 17:11 |
| He goes on to swipe at Java too. It's mud on everyone's face, just like M$ wants. | Jun 14 17:11 | |
| *tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 14 17:11 | |
| DaemonMDV | Java does suck | Jun 14 17:11 |
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| DaemonMDV | the concept of efficiency was just totally lost on Java | Jun 14 17:12 |
| There's a larger undercurrent here - the threat of infiltration - that will backfire badly in M$'s face. | Jun 14 17:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | Mono apps seem to take about 10% more RAM than native programs | Jun 14 17:12 |
| The largest employer of foreign workers (H1B visa) in the US should not throw infiltration stones. | Jun 14 17:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | Java programs are like 400%-1000% | Jun 14 17:13 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 14 17:13 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Fears the Netbook http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/06/04/microsoft-fears-the-netbook.aspx | Jun 14 17:13 |
| schestowitz | From the MS press even | Jun 14 17:13 |
| DaemonMDV | check out Vuze vs Transmission or Frostwire/Limewire to Gtk-Gnutella | Jun 14 17:13 |
| DaemonMDV | you need look no further to see Java apps are bloat | Jun 14 17:13 |
| schestowitz | For some thing it's OK | Jun 14 17:14 |
| schestowitz | Like a Web server with 8GB of RAM | Jun 14 17:14 |
| schestowitz | Not only.. | Jun 14 17:14 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, some of the Vuze bloat is the Vuze layer, but you can disable that to get Azureus back | Jun 14 17:14 |
| I'm amazed at M$'s gall. 10 years after M$ swore that letting people look at the Windose source code would be a national security risk, they employ people from Communist China to make software for the US armed forces. | Jun 14 17:14 | |
| schestowitz | I'm just sayin' | Jun 14 17:14 |
| DaemonMDV | and it's still too heavy | Jun 14 17:14 |
| schestowitz | To program quickly it's hugely valuable | Jun 14 17:14 |
| schestowitz | But Java ain't for tiny computers | Jun 14 17:14 |
| schestowitz | Although many phones and Android too uses it | Jun 14 17:14 |
| schestowitz | Don't diss Java so fasty | Jun 14 17:15 |
| schestowitz | *fast | Jun 14 17:15 |
| DaemonMDV | Sun brought Mono/.Net on themselves | Jun 14 17:15 |
| DaemonMDV | by making Java so terrible | Jun 14 17:15 |
| someone I'm ignoring does not like Java, ha ha. | Jun 14 17:15 | |
| schestowitz | The anti-Java slog | Jun 14 17:15 |
| ongoing | Jun 14 17:15 | |
| DaemonMDV | From a technical standpoint, Java apps would not work on a netbook | Jun 14 17:15 |
| DaemonMDV | Mono apps would | Jun 14 17:16 |
| redoubled now that it's free software | Jun 14 17:16 | |
| DaemonMDV | that's the point | Jun 14 17:16 |
| schestowitz | Too bad | Jun 14 17:16 |
| DaemonMDV | who cares what the license is if you can't use it? | Jun 14 17:16 |
| schestowitz | You're all bunk | Jun 14 17:16 |
| schestowitz | Java ALREADY runs on netbooks | Jun 14 17:16 |
| schestowitz | Lots of Android | Jun 14 17:16 |
| _Mutex_ | do some research, youll find that MS showed China all its source code, for them to do security analysis, also the US Governemnt many universities have access to the source, as well as many independent third party developers. | Jun 14 17:16 |
| schestowitz | Now have a nice cup of STFU | Jun 14 17:16 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, the stripped down version | Jun 14 17:16 |
| schestowitz | That's Java | Jun 14 17:17 |
| DaemonMDV | once you sufficiently cripple it, it will scale to devices | Jun 14 17:17 |
| DaemonMDV | wow | Jun 14 17:17 |
| schestowitz | Kind of like the kernel | Jun 14 17:17 |
| DaemonMDV | never would have guessed | Jun 14 17:17 |
| schestowitz | Not 400MB of it | Jun 14 17:17 |
| schestowitz | Troll. | Jun 14 17:17 |
| " Netbook users don't want to pay a premium for a Windows operating system anyway, especially when open-source solutions such as Ubuntu -- already a popular choice with some netbook cradlers -- can also get them where they need to go." | Jun 14 17:18 | |
| DaemonMDV | if we scale it to where it's not really Java andmore and you can only use a restricted subset, it's only twice as bloated as C#? | Jun 14 17:18 |
| DaemonMDV | is that all they have? | Jun 14 17:18 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Urges Java Developers To Assume .Net Interoperability http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/soa/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=217701933&subSection=News | Jun 14 17:18 |
| DaemonMDV | *anymore | Jun 14 17:18 |
| schestowitz | MS is desperate to slog Java | Jun 14 17:18 |
| neighborlee | hey n ow be nice to java..it did bring you back images from the red planet ;) | Jun 14 17:18 |
| schestowitz | Just needs some shills spread in developers sites like Slashdot | Jun 14 17:18 |
| schestowitz | MS: "Mind Control: To control mental output you have to control mental input. Take control of the channels by which developers receive information, then they can only think about the things you tell them. Thus, you control mindshare!" | Jun 14 17:19 |
| what kind of java developer is taking cues from M$? | Jun 14 17:19 | |
| schestowitz | It''s a recurring theme: "control of the channels" | Jun 14 17:19 |
| schestowitz | or "channels of communication" | Jun 14 17:19 |
| " maybe Microsoft thinks that belittling netbooks with a "low cost" tag is one way to get consumers to pay more for full-sized laptops that contain higher-margin versions of its operating system." ha ah | Jun 14 17:19 | |
| schestowitz | Like conferences, sites, Twitter | Jun 14 17:19 |
| neighborlee | In fact, | Jun 14 17:20 |
| neighborlee | many of the mission operations workstations for the | Jun 14 17:20 |
| neighborlee | Mars Exploration Rover Mission use Linux as their | Jun 14 17:20 |
| neighborlee | operating system. | Jun 14 17:20 |
| _Mutex_ | I think people label netbooks as low cost mainly because they are low cost. (and they are ) :) | Jun 14 17:20 |
| I thought most java was behind the scenes stuff, never touches Windoze. | Jun 14 17:20 | |
| neighborlee | gah | Jun 14 17:20 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Exec: Cloud Computing Could Undermine Margins http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090604-718695.html | Jun 14 17:20 |
| Well ..... the line, "don't buy that, it's cheap and does what you want," is going to go over like a lead balloon. | Jun 14 17:21 | |
| _Mutex_ | http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/090414-spirit-reboot.html Mars Rover Inexplicably Reboots Computer | Jun 14 17:22 |
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| _Mutex_ | yes, you cant say dont buy them because they arecheap, mobile phones are cheap too but they do the job they were intended for very well. | Jun 14 17:22 |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-46-235.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 17:23 | |
| schestowitz | Darryl K. Taft has been flogging a lot of pro-MS recently, e.g. http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterprise-Applications/IBM-Declines-Challenge-Asks-Microsoft-to-Kill-AntiIBM-Web-Site-719488/ | Jun 14 17:24 |
| schestowitz | He used to be more balanced | Jun 14 17:24 |
| schestowitz | Ziff Davis | Jun 14 17:24 |
| DaemonMDV | the Mars rovers used VXWorks | Jun 14 17:24 |
| DaemonMDV | not Linux | Jun 14 17:25 |
| M$ is screwed over netbooks and gnu/linux because their core market was cheapskates. | Jun 14 17:25 | |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, I got it from nasa article. | Jun 14 17:25 |
| DaemonMDV | Wikipedia says it's VXWorks | Jun 14 17:25 |
| schestowitz | NASA uses Linux too | Jun 14 17:25 |
| schestowitz | Depends on the mission | Jun 14 17:25 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks#Spacecraft_using_VxWorks | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | NASA did more than one mission, XP Demon | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * The Deep Space Program Science Experiment (DSPSE) also known as Clementine (spacecraft) [13] | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter [14] | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * The Phoenix Mars Lander [15] | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * The Deep Impact space probe | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * The James Webb Space Telescope (in development) | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | But it does not stop you from FUDing | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * The Spirit and Opportunity Mars Exploration Rovers [16] | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | * Stardust (spacecraft) | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | Because you MUST downplay it | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | NASA uses VXWorks | Jun 14 17:26 |
| neighborlee | url | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | They also use Fedora | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | They also use Ubuntu | Jun 14 17:26 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks#Spacecraft_using_VxWorks | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | And I have recent URLs | Jun 14 17:26 |
| schestowitz | From 2008 | Jun 14 17:26 |
| neighborlee | http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:X46kjBHxHBYJ:www.eclipse.org/community/casestudies/NASAfinal.pdf+nasa+mars+lander+java&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us | Jun 14 17:27 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux really isn't fault tolerant enough to trust with a spacecraft | Jun 14 17:28 |
| DaemonMDV | that's what VXWorks and things like MINIX do well | Jun 14 17:28 |
| DaemonMDV | error avoidance and recovery | Jun 14 17:29 |
| I see Mutex wants some M$ Failure schooling. Here you go, The M$ Death Watch http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707 | Jun 14 17:29 | |
| DaemonMDV | by its nature, Linux can never be as reliable | Jun 14 17:29 |
| neighborlee | I said workstations.. | Jun 14 17:29 |
| DaemonMDV | does it mean Linux sucks? No. It means it's not cut out for that task | Jun 14 17:29 |
| DaemonMDV | MINIX and VXWorks have a small kernel of a few thousand lines of code and everything else is a module and if the module fails, the kernel can resurrect it | Jun 14 17:30 |
| DaemonMDV | where Linux would just die | Jun 14 17:30 |
| DaemonMDV | that comes at the cost of performance | Jun 14 17:30 |
| *maxstirner is enjoying the microtoss death watch | Jun 14 17:31 | |
| _Mutex_ | The version of its software usedfor the Mars Exploration RoverMission was not based on Eclipsebut used open-source softwarein many areas | Jun 14 17:31 |
| DaemonMDV | I happen to agree with Andrew Tanenbaum that on a modern system, it's worth the tradeoff of 5% performance for bulletproof reliablity | Jun 14 17:31 |
| DaemonMDV | but Linus Torvalds doesn't think that | Jun 14 17:31 |
| DaemonMDV | so OK | Jun 14 17:31 |
| DaemonMDV | even Microsoft is trying to get things out of kernel mode | Jun 14 17:32 |
| _Mutex_ | good code and you can have both, no need to compromise | Jun 14 17:32 |
| DaemonMDV | wrong | Jun 14 17:32 |
| DaemonMDV | it's impossible to debug 11 million lines of kernel code to that degree of reliability | Jun 14 17:32 |
| _Mutex_ | there is little overhead in effectively dealing with exceptions. | Jun 14 17:32 |
| DaemonMDV | a 14,000 line kernel is much easier to stabilize | Jun 14 17:33 |
| _Mutex_ | acutally I dont agree, sure its impossible to debut 11 mil lines of code, but youll never ever have to do that, | Jun 14 17:33 |
| DaemonMDV | unfortunately, Linux, Windows, and the BSDs are relics | Jun 14 17:33 |
| schestowitz | Intuit cutting 4% of workforce to 'manage resources' < http://www.marketwatch.com/story/intuit-cutting-4-of-workforce-to-manage-costs?siteid=yhoof > | Jun 14 17:33 |
| schestowitz | GNUcash++; | Jun 14 17:33 |
| DaemonMDV | from a time when the performance penalty was too great | Jun 14 17:33 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, heh | Jun 14 17:33 |
| _Mutex_ | you decode one function at a time, its best to keep functions 1 page size, so all you do is debug 1 function at a time, just like it was written. | Jun 14 17:34 |
| _Mutex_ | how do you eat an elphant ?? one bite ate a time | Jun 14 17:34 |
| DaemonMDV | if something dies in userspace, the kernel has a grim reaper process that takes it away and spawns a new copy | Jun 14 17:34 |
| DaemonMDV | right away | Jun 14 17:34 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux can't do that | Jun 14 17:34 |
| DaemonMDV | because most services run in the kernel | Jun 14 17:34 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: you're pissing off with your utter lies | Jun 14 17:34 |
| DaemonMDV | it's not lies | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | Any reduced Linux is reliable | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | You're just posing | Jun 14 17:35 |
| DaemonMDV | look at the MINIX design | Jun 14 17:35 |
| _Mutex_ | well that is one think the recent windows has over it then. | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | And aggravating | Jun 14 17:35 |
| DaemonMDV | much better for reliability | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | Wasting people's time | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | >> <DaemonMDV> unfortunately, Linux, Windows, and the BSDs are relics | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, and Google sucks | Jun 14 17:35 |
| schestowitz | And Bush the best president ever | Jun 14 17:35 |
| DaemonMDV | they are | Jun 14 17:35 |
| DaemonMDV | they're obsolete | Jun 14 17:35 |
| DaemonMDV | built to run on 386s | Jun 14 17:36 |
| *schestowitz ingores DaemonMDV | Jun 14 17:36 | |
| DaemonMDV | and grown from that | Jun 14 17:36 |
| _Mutex_ | your on your down DaemonMDV | Jun 14 17:36 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX_3#Reincarnate_dead_or_sick_drivers | Jun 14 17:36 |
| DaemonMDV | A special process, called the reincarnation server, periodically pings each device driver. If the driver dies or fails to respond correctly to pings, the reincarnation server automatically replaces it with a fresh copy. The detection and replacement of non-functioning drivers is automatic, without any user action required. This feature does not work for disk drivers at present, but in the next release the system will be able to | Jun 14 17:36 |
| DaemonMDV | recover even disk drivers, which will be shadowed in RAM. Driver recovery does not affect running processes. | Jun 14 17:36 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux cannot do that | Jun 14 17:36 |
| neighborlee | " including Castor, a data-binding | Jun 14 17:37 |
| neighborlee | framework; Java Expression Parser, a system for | Jun 14 17:37 |
| neighborlee | parsing and evaluating mathematical expressions; "..java was used ;) | Jun 14 17:37 |
| DaemonMDV | it can do that because the service that dies was not running in kernel space | Jun 14 17:37 |
| DaemonMDV | if something dies in Linux it can take out the whole kernel | Jun 14 17:37 |
| DaemonMDV | and freeze the computer | Jun 14 17:37 |
| _Mutex_ | yes neighborlee, ive been reading your link, its seems the JPL boys are keen fossies | Jun 14 17:37 |
| neighborlee | kk | Jun 14 17:38 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux has put performance way above reliability | Jun 14 17:38 |
| DaemonMDV | in deciding to run most things in the kernel | Jun 14 17:38 |
| DaemonMDV | which is why Linux has to do stupid and silly things like "TAINT" the kernel if you use binary blob drivers | Jun 14 17:39 |
| DaemonMDV | when MINIX would really not have to give a crap | Jun 14 17:39 |
| neighborlee | and as noted earlier..in fact many of the mission operatives workstations for the mars exploration rover mission use linux as their operating system. | Jun 14 17:39 |
| _Mutex_ | and using open source tool chains, !! :) | Jun 14 17:40 |
| schestowitz | How is this news? BHS students become Microsoft certified < http://nwanews.com/bcdr/News/74110/ > | Jun 14 17:40 |
| DaemonMDV | well, if I use Nvidia drivers or something in Linux, it can crash the kernel because Linux is not robust and has no way of saving itself | Jun 14 17:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft accused over web browser figures < http://ping.fm/DPAvH > | Jun 14 17:40 | |
| DaemonMDV | if Nvidia drivers crash on Windows XP it does the same thing, the system freezes, I have to hole the power button in | Jun 14 17:41 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, and that happens about as often as on windows...almost never < in my many years experience anyway> | Jun 14 17:41 |
| DaemonMDV | in Vista the screen would flicker and tell me it recovered from a video crash | Jun 14 17:41 |
| DaemonMDV | cause the driver is in userspace | Jun 14 17:41 |
| DaemonMDV | *hold | Jun 14 17:41 |
| DaemonMDV | ho-hum, the day goes on | Jun 14 17:41 |
| DaemonMDV | no work lost | Jun 14 17:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Linux badly needs a user-mode driver framework because it's showing its age | Jun 14 17:42 |
| neighborlee | vista is bad reference..id avoid it if I were you ;) | Jun 14 17:42 |
| DaemonMDV | everytime you do something X doesn't like, it blows up and the shrapnel takes out the kernel | Jun 14 17:42 |
| neighborlee | windows 7 is set to be practically free for upgrading users LOL | Jun 14 17:43 |
| neighborlee | gee, I wonder why-= | Jun 14 17:43 |
| DaemonMDV | "With our apologies" | Jun 14 17:43 |
| DaemonMDV | would be nice | Jun 14 17:43 |
| schestowitz | What a STUPID idea: Why Microsoft should buy Palm < http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/why-microsoft-should-buy-palm-605583 >. The author is either ignoramus or trolling | Jun 14 17:43 |
| maxstirner | dont think thats very sensible, the vista-buying idiots may be just the right victims for another round of rubbish | Jun 14 17:43 |
| Everyone forced to use Windoze knows that it blows large chunks and wastes both time and money. They also know that gnu/linux is reliable, which is why Google is the search engine of choice at M$. | Jun 14 17:43 | |
| _Mutex_ | you know why ?? dont palm own the term "netbook" ?? | Jun 14 17:44 |
| DaemonMDV | anyone who tries to get Linux to play a video game will long for the stability of Vista | Jun 14 17:44 |
| Tech radar editor is an Ed Bott lover. | Jun 14 17:44 | |
| DaemonMDV | seriosuly | Jun 14 17:44 |
| maxstirner | i thought thats intel | Jun 14 17:44 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: in relation to what? | Jun 14 17:44 |
| DaemonMDV | you're jsut as likely to crash X as to get the damned game working | Jun 14 17:44 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: no, Psion | Jun 14 17:44 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh, knew it was a p-something | Jun 14 17:44 |
| see comments from last night about tech radar | Jun 14 17:44 | |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, thats only a current market mindset , but lets not dwell on obvious things ;) | Jun 14 17:44 |
| _Mutex_ | close but no cigarl | Jun 14 17:44 |
| maxstirner | schestowitz: i meant the upgrade should be expensive, as people who got vista are likely to fall for the "+1 myth" | Jun 14 17:44 |
| schestowitz | twitter: any proof for that? | Jun 14 17:45 |
| schestowitz | They trolls a bit from there | Jun 14 17:45 |
| schestowitz | 'xept when they import from TuxRadar (LXF) | Jun 14 17:45 |
| let me get the link again. | Jun 14 17:45 | |
| DaemonMDV | Chances of crashing Linux with a Linux native game, about 1 in 4, chances of crashing it with Wine, almost certainly a few times | Jun 14 17:45 |
| schestowitz | Bott is MS PR | Jun 14 17:45 |
| schestowitz | Windows books | Jun 14 17:45 |
| DaemonMDV | then distros always do their own stupidity, like Mandriva not including libraries to make Wine work with the sound system | Jun 14 17:46 |
| schestowitz | macabe__: Vista=Windows 6.0 | Jun 14 17:46 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 17:46 |
| schestowitz | Vista is Windows 6.1 | Jun 14 17:46 |
| DaemonMDV | or at least depend on said libraries | Jun 14 17:46 |
| schestowitz | Based on the Win Registry | Jun 14 17:46 |
| Jason Hiner, Editor in Chief of Tech Republic, wrote this beauty (copied to zdnet) http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=19633 | Jun 14 17:46 | |
| schestowitz | It's got a new theme | Jun 14 17:46 |
| schestowitz | And many bribed bloggers | Jun 14 17:46 |
| schestowitz | Dual-core beats | Jun 14 17:46 |
| schestowitz | *beasts | Jun 14 17:47 |
| the Palm Troll is more of the same M$ propaganda. | Jun 14 17:47 | |
| Tech Republic should be ignored. | Jun 14 17:47 | |
| schestowitz | Wait.. | Jun 14 17:47 |
| _Mutex_ | I wonder if they base the build numbers on version or 1000 builds per OS version, my Vista is build 6002 and win7 is 7100 | Jun 14 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Jason Hiner>??? | Jun 14 17:47 |
| schestowitz | He's a Microsoft fan | Jun 14 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Anti-Linux too | Jun 14 17:47 |
| _Mutex_ | mabey xp was 5000 ish | Jun 14 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Which is implied | Jun 14 17:47 |
| schestowitz | And George Ou is in Tech Republic | Jun 14 17:47 |
| He was praising Ed Bott in that horrible article. | Jun 14 17:48 | |
| schestowitz | Which is of course FOSS-hostile | Jun 14 17:48 |
| schestowitz | Hiner started writing in BTL some months ago | Jun 14 17:48 |
| schestowitz | I was not happy | Jun 14 17:48 |
| Ou and Bott were the vicious attack dogs against Peter Guttmann. | Jun 14 17:48 | |
| schestowitz | But ZDNet was already trash | Jun 14 17:48 |
| schestowitz | Hiner linking to Bott makes sense | Jun 14 17:49 |
| schestowitz | But where does TechRadar come into this? | Jun 14 17:49 |
| I don't know, but it started showing up in Google News. | Jun 14 17:49 | |
| schestowitz | Bott was among the bribed bloggers | Jun 14 17:49 |
| schestowitz | MS gave him a $2000 laptop | Jun 14 17:49 |
| schestowitz | Guess what he wrote? | Jun 14 17:49 |
| _Mutex_ | zdnet is getting more and more pro windows, reading the EU, IE thing, 152 talkback most were against the EU, putting US business above EU's cliams | Jun 14 17:50 |
| _Mutex_ | A good report ?? :) | Jun 14 17:50 |
| _Mutex_ | glowing ? | Jun 14 17:50 |
| I have a funny Ou article. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/195530 | Jun 14 17:50 | |
| _Mutex_ | $2000 worth | Jun 14 17:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Ricochet days. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/7586.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/521252.html | Jun 14 17:50 | |
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| George Ou's video codec problems sound a lot like DeamonFskTroll's problems. | Jun 14 17:51 | |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: yes, among the early reviews | Jun 14 17:52 |
| schestowitz | They controlled initial impressions | Jun 14 17:52 |
| schestowitz | Only bribed bloggers (maybe 70 of them) got a laptop with prebeta of vIsta7 | Jun 14 17:53 |
| schestowitz | No-one complained | Jun 14 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Wow. How can THAT be? | Jun 14 17:53 |
| DaemonMDV | actually, his bitching about Windows Movie Maker is wrong | Jun 14 17:53 |
| DaemonMDV | it does support WMV-HD | Jun 14 17:53 |
| schestowitz | The laptops were given by Waggener Endtromm | Jun 14 17:53 |
| DaemonMDV | but not on Basic, Business, or Enterprise | Jun 14 17:53 |
| DaemonMDV | just Home Premium and Ultimate | Jun 14 17:53 |
| schestowitz | People who wrote negatively about Microsoft got blacklisted | Jun 14 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Edelman did the same thing for MS in 2006 | Jun 14 17:53 |
| schestowitz | They swapped shilling teams | Jun 14 17:53 |
| M$'s whole PR system of embargoes and conferences is designed to manipulate reporters. Those who write favorably are fed more often. Those who don't are ignored, fired and that kind of thing. Advertising budgets and information are used as weapons. | Jun 14 17:54 | |
| Everything is War to M$. | Jun 14 17:55 | |
| schestowitz | Yes, welcome to reality | Jun 14 17:55 |
| schestowitz | Spread the information. | Jun 14 17:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Forrester has done a lot of work for MS and against FOSS recently. Microsoft paid them for anti-Linux before, so be careful. | Jun 14 17:55 | |
| schestowitz | Check out the mug of MOG's colleague, Katharine Hadow http://ssljournal.ulitzer.com/node/963152 WTF? | Jun 14 17:56 |
| schestowitz | And MOG uses as her mug some photo of the 80s | Jun 14 17:56 |
| Normal business seeks to create value by processing raw materials into something society wants. M$ seeks to destroy resources and control vital pieces of the economy through impediments. | Jun 14 17:56 | |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft Chutzpah on Full Display in Attempt to Rename Netbook < http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4426.html >D | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Don't ever say "smartbooks" | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | That's what MS wants | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | To ridicule some device na,e | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | I never write netbook either (almost never) | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Call it what it is | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Sub-notebooks | Jun 14 17:58 |
| Hadow wanted to look avant gaurde or artistic, I suppose. Looks like a drawing from the 20's. | Jun 14 17:58 | |
| schestowitz | Like small notebooks | Jun 14 17:58 |
| or Playboy. | Jun 14 17:58 | |
| schestowitz | That would mess with MS' business | Jun 14 17:58 |
| _Mutex_ | knee tops | Jun 14 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Implying you can get a noitebooks that runs for 8hrs and costs $199 | Jun 14 17:59 |
| schestowitz | How much does Vista7 plan to cost? | Jun 14 17:59 |
| schestowitz | Like 2 notebooks with linux? | Jun 14 17:59 |
| You can't get a notebook that costs $200 and runs for 8 hours? | Jun 14 17:59 | |
| schestowitz | You can | Jun 14 17:59 |
| schestowitz | Small notebooks | Jun 14 17:59 |
| schestowitz | With ARM chips | Jun 14 17:59 |
| schestowitz | Not yet | Jun 14 17:59 |
| right | Jun 14 18:00 | |
| schestowitz | When it's out in the market | Jun 14 18:00 |
| schestowitz | Here is a video. Watch it: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/ | Jun 14 18:00 |
| They are already on the market, they are just crippled with terrible software - iPhone. | Jun 14 18:00 | |
| schestowitz | Iphone is rubbish | Jun 14 18:00 |
| schestowitz | No keyboard | Jun 14 18:00 |
| schestowitz | No computer | Jun 14 18:00 |
| schestowitz | No mouse | Jun 14 18:00 |
| schestowitz | Just jerking off with phonecalls | Jun 14 18:01 |
| There's nothing wrong with the hardware. | Jun 14 18:01 | |
| schestowitz | It's not a computer | Jun 14 18:01 |
| it has the power to do what people want, the software simply prevents it. | Jun 14 18:01 | |
| schestowitz | Too small, no peripheral for interaction that's fast | Jun 14 18:01 |
| maxstirner | the netbook term also implicitly refers to the modern usage pattern (googledocs etc) and is associated with linux pre-installation | Jun 14 18:01 |
| schestowitz | Small display | Jun 14 18:01 |
| iphone is indeed a computer | Jun 14 18:01 | |
| it is a crippled computer | Jun 14 18:01 | |
| maxstirner | there could be a bluetooth keyboard i suppose.. it is a bit of a joke | Jun 14 18:01 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: yes, but the device is not to do with usage type | Jun 14 18:01 |
| users may like the interface, but they would like it better with choice | Jun 14 18:02 | |
| schestowitz | notebooks does not imply it's a book (note books) | Jun 14 18:02 |
| schestowitz | It's a computer | Jun 14 18:02 |
| _Mutex_ | I think they call it embedded | Jun 14 18:02 |
| maxstirner | schestowitz: i am just saying that this may be bothering the MS microsoft clique | Jun 14 18:02 |
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| an iPhone hooked up to a larger screen and keyboard would be a desktop. | Jun 14 18:02 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: does iphone do cut and paste yet ;-) ? (it does) | Jun 14 18:02 |
| if only the software would allow | Jun 14 18:02 | |
| Omar87 | Hello there..? | Jun 14 18:02 |
| _Goblin | hi | Jun 14 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Jun 14 18:03 |
| What the public needs to know is that ARM can do everything their desktop does, if only it has the right software - GNU/Linux. | Jun 14 18:03 | |
| maxstirner | beranger site is back.. | Jun 14 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft bans XP on hybrid storage netbooks http://www.techspot.com/news/34999-microsoft-bans-xp-on-hybrid-storage-netbooks.html | Jun 14 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Ban Hybrid Storage Systems so MSI Wind U115 Pulled. http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/8-2&fd=A&url=http://www.cheaplaptops.org.uk/20090608/microsoft-ban-hybrid-storage-systems-so-msi-wind-u115-pulled/&cid=1255683579&ei=ZfcsSuKzA4zSjAeXvPC8BQ&usg=AFQjCNGwolzzCXiVbt8Fy3DGg9VyiSeaOg | Jun 14 18:03 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft reportedly bans netbooks with hybrid storage systems ... " | Jun 14 18:04 |
| maxstirner | whys that? | Jun 14 18:04 |
| DaemonMDV | I hope those XP systems aren't shipping with IE 6 | Jun 14 18:04 |
| DaemonMDV | sweet zombie jesus | Jun 14 18:04 |
| iPhone is a good demonstration of the hardware capability. It is popular and powerful enough to do most of what the public wants. The software limits annoy users - it has a camera, for example, but does not do SIP video phone via wifi. | Jun 14 18:04 | |
| maxstirner | thats due to the mobiel phone companies not enjoying a phone doing voip ;) | Jun 14 18:05 |
| ARM with free software will have all the hardware power but none of the software limitations. | Jun 14 18:05 | |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, but the only hope is that someone can reverse engineer it and load their own firmware | Jun 14 18:05 |
| any way you put it, max, it's a non free software problem. | Jun 14 18:05 | |
| DaemonMDV | cause big companies are the only ones with the resources to make that hardware | Jun 14 18:05 |
| it does not matter who the owner and limiter are, the limits still suck life. | Jun 14 18:06 | |
| DaemonMDV | well, buying a black box device you know you have no control over | Jun 14 18:07 |
| DaemonMDV | then bitching about it | Jun 14 18:07 |
| _Mutex_ | the only software limitation is with the ARM CPU, no matter what the OS, its does not do pre-emptive multi-tasking, it multi-tasks, but using timeslicing, and no matter the OS it wont deal with lots of threads well. | Jun 14 18:07 |
| DaemonMDV | that's retarded | Jun 14 18:07 |
| DaemonMDV | just don't buy it | Jun 14 18:07 |
| M$'s netbook limitations are already failing. Hardware makers are more afraid of stagnant sales than they are of M$ right now, and M$ has few carrots to offer. | Jun 14 18:09 | |
| schestowitz | Obama Tells American Businesses to Drop Dead: Kevin Hassett http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aaaBdVMkjPnU | Jun 14 18:09 |
| maxstirner | they did get asus to jump ship, i was surprised | Jun 14 18:09 |
| schestowitz | "Once that happens, their new pay czar Kenneth Feinberg can set the wage for everybody and Rahm Emanuel can stack the boards of all of our companies with his political cronies. " | Jun 14 18:10 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Windows is not yet ready for the Desktop http://ping.fm/o1rnl | Jun 14 18:10 | |
| schestowitz | '“It makes U.S. jobs more expensive,” Ballmer said, “We’re better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S.” If Microsoft, perhaps our most competitive company, has to abandon the U.S. in order to continue to thrive, who exactly is going to stay? ' | Jun 14 18:11 |
| schestowitz | What are these lobbyists in Blooberg | Jun 14 18:11 |
| schestowitz | When I saw the headline I thought it was a tabloid | Jun 14 18:11 |
| maxstirner | far-right economics commentators.. | Jun 14 18:11 |
| _Mutex_ | not foss, its allready UK based :) | Jun 14 18:12 |
| schestowitz | "Kevin Hassett, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, is a Bloomberg News columnist. He was an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own.) " | Jun 14 18:12 |
| maxstirner | typical in US press, its like fox going into "holocaust all the arabs mode" during the iraq war | Jun 14 18:12 |
| maxstirner | AEI is extremely right-wing | Jun 14 18:12 |
| schestowitz | AEI? | Jun 14 18:12 |
| maxstirner | merican Enterprise Institute | Jun 14 18:13 |
| maxstirner | A | Jun 14 18:13 |
| maxstirner | "think tank" | Jun 14 18:13 |
| maxstirner | http://www.theonion.com/content/infograph/os_x_snow_leopard_vs_windows?utm_source=most_pop_dugg <- OS X Snow Leopard vs. Windows 7 | Jun 14 18:14 |
| schestowitz | Another slogger: "Should Microsoft Buy Palm?" http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/06/should_microsof_2.html;jsessionid=LMPWB30KCWHFEQSNDLRSKH0CJUNN2JVN | Jun 14 18:14 |
| schestowitz | Question mark for trolling | Jun 14 18:14 |
| schestowitz | And I recognise the author | Jun 14 18:14 |
| schestowitz | he's anti-Linux | Jun 14 18:14 |
| schestowitz | Not just the pubiication he writes for | Jun 14 18:14 |
| schestowitz | They seem to be slogging Palm | Jun 14 18:15 |
| schestowitz | Think. Tank. | Jun 14 18:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Firefox 3.5 Preview Shows New Hope For Open Media Standards: http://digg.com/d1tnRQ?t | Jun 14 18:15 | |
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| schestowitz | Think tank thinking of tanks or just sitting there all day like the Thinking Man trying to save humanity? | Jun 14 18:16 |
| maxstirner | producing scientific-looking economic reports for money, essentially marketing a political agenda | Jun 14 18:16 |
| *neighborlee has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 14 18:17 | |
| maxstirner | these are commercial entities, no independent funding or neutral stance (beyond the pretense) included | Jun 14 18:17 |
| schestowitz | Of course | Jun 14 18:17 |
| schestowitz | Did you see the latest in Groklaw? | Jun 14 18:18 |
| schestowitz | Last night that is | Jun 14 18:18 |
| schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090612142025637 | Jun 14 18:18 |
| schestowitz | "There's more than one entity with that or a similar name, but I suspect that this one may be the Stephen Norris Gulf Capital Partners. Incidentally, or maybe not so incidentally, listed as a senior advisor on the principals page is Robert Kasten, who is also a consultant for the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution" | Jun 14 18:18 |
| schestowitz | "which you will recall attacked Linux -- here's the infamous "report" [PDF] -- albeit unsuccessfully. Not that AdTI ever admitted defeat, as you can see on this incredible AdTI page, where they call Open Source software "open sores software" and reference both Maureen O'Gara and Paul Murphy -- small world, isn't it?" | Jun 14 18:18 |
| schestowitz | "The think tank report on Linux was reportedly funded at least indirectly, by Microsoft. Microsoft admits funding AdTI, but not specific projects. And it called the report unhelpful. Of course, there are coincidences in life of the three degrees variety. So, just saying. " | Jun 14 18:18 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: yesterday I got an E-mail from the director of one of those 'experts' | Jun 14 18:19 |
| schestowitz | He didn't deny that Microsoft pays them | Jun 14 18:19 |
| schestowitz | They slammed Google BTW | Jun 14 18:19 |
| schestowitz | But he said they did not pay _much_ :-0) | Jun 14 18:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 200 comments in an article from a fed up MSFT shareholder. http://ping.fm/LkxCK | Jun 14 18:20 | |
| maxstirner | I wouldn't be suprised if PR companies produce PR for money really ;) | Jun 14 18:21 |
| maxstirner | even university studies can be bought (cf pharma again) | Jun 14 18:21 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft to JavaOne Attendees: We Come in Peace < http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-development/microsoft-to-javaone-attendees-we-come-in-peace-004783.php > ="we come in peace" => Schmoozing tactics | Jun 14 18:22 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: not can, are | Jun 14 18:22 |
| schestowitz | I spoke about it to some colleagues in academia | Jun 14 18:22 |
| schestowitz | AstraZenaca funds some PhDs around here | Jun 14 18:22 |
| schestowitz | To prove what it needs to be 'proven' | Jun 14 18:23 |
| schestowitz | Merck and MS just joined hands | Jun 14 18:23 |
| schestowitz | After massive Merck collusion with Elsevier | Jun 14 18:23 |
| maxstirner | :D its standard business practice.. | Jun 14 18:23 |
| maxstirner | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville_Institution Washington, D.C.–based right-wing think tank that produces reports and policy research. | Jun 14 18:23 |
| maxstirner | These detail how, after the Environmental Protection Agency moved in 1993 to have second-hand tobacco smoke declared a carcinogen, Philip Morris hired the AdTI to campaign against the move | Jun 14 18:24 |
| maxstirner | axis of evil :D | Jun 14 18:24 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Issues Jobs Threat To Obama Over Tax Plans < http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/Microsoft_Issues_Jobs_Threat_To_Obama_Over_Tax_Plans_xxxx37222.html > More Americans should be made aware of this | Jun 14 18:24 |
| maxstirner | AdTI is a member organization of the Cooler Heads Coalition which asserts that "the science of global warming is uncertain" | Jun 14 18:24 |
| maxstirner | hohohoho | Jun 14 18:24 |
| schestowitz | And now be shown PearlyG prtending that Americans are stupid | Jun 14 18:24 |
| schestowitz | *tears* "Our education is so bad... we'll die unless we give visas to people from developed countries like.... not the US" | Jun 14 18:25 |
| schestowitz | It's a miracle that Google find capable people in this 'stupid' education PearlyG whines about | Jun 14 18:25 |
| maxstirner | http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199710--.htm <- cf What Makes Mainstream Media Mainstream, Noam Chomsky essay about the public relations industry, marketing and the mainstream media | Jun 14 18:27 |
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| schestowitz | Exclusive: Microsoft's Wacky New Ads to Pitch IE8 < http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2348416,00.asp > How miserable. Bundling was not enough for them | Jun 14 18:31 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: "There is another sector of the media, the elite media, sometimes called the agenda-setting media because they are the ones with the big resources, they set the framework in which everyone else operates. The New York Times and CBS, that kind of thing." | Jun 14 18:32 |
| schestowitz | Yes, there's that observation he repeats a lot | Jun 14 18:33 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.13.252) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 18:33 | |
| schestowitz | If writer=!compliant(NYT), then sack(); | Jun 14 18:33 |
| maxstirner | theres been a lot of downsizing in the print media in the last decade, with most people just copying of AP/reuters | Jun 14 18:33 |
| _Hicham_ | sack(schestowitz); | Jun 14 18:33 |
| _Hicham_ | sacking successful | Jun 14 18:34 |
| maxstirner | the MS ads have been v wacky lately | Jun 14 18:34 |
| *schestowitz gets out of the sack | Jun 14 18:35 | |
| maxstirner | that bill gates ad with the shoes with that slimey tv person was so odd | Jun 14 18:35 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, I like the death of 'mainstream' media | Jun 14 18:35 |
| schestowitz | The problem is, MS starts AstroTurfing | Jun 14 18:35 |
| schestowitz | It tries to capture the new modes of interaction re IT | Jun 14 18:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft 'compensates' schools by 'allowing' them to buy more Microsoft http://ping.fm/jXIl2 Classic scam | Jun 14 18:35 | |
| maxstirner | with the interweb there has been some sense of that, hence all the guerilla marketing efforst as you say | Jun 14 18:35 |
| maxstirner | but online many-to-many communication is deeply elite in demographic terms, hence the continuing importance of tv-based propaganda | Jun 14 18:36 |
| schestowitz | There are EU laws against that | Jun 14 18:36 |
| schestowitz | The US is still behind the curve | Jun 14 18:36 |
| schestowitz | The FTC responded last week | Jun 14 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Ish | Jun 14 18:37 |
| schestowitz | But the FTC is inherently corrupt | Jun 14 18:37 |
| schestowitz | It's like the SEC, it's a joke with an office in DC or whatever | Jun 14 18:37 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@c-24-16-17-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 18:37 | |
| schestowitz | Slimesoft.. Microsoft IP Ventures Launches Ireland's Latest Tech Startup: InishTech Microsoft IP Ventures Launches Ireland's Latest Tech Startup: InishTech | Jun 14 18:38 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: How Bill Gates caught the global health bug http://crosscut.com/2009/06/08/health-medicine/19043/ | Jun 14 18:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Shining Some Light on Microsoft's Nasty Moonlight Covenant: http://digg.com/d1tnXL?t | Jun 14 18:40 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz so where are the abusive astroturfers? it's a mystery, as Toyah would say. | Jun 14 18:40 | |
| schestowitz | Bill Gates visits World Health Organization http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZCmJsVtrriRa5dXaQuh3nd_RifAD98N2M103 | Jun 14 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Lobbying grandeur | Jun 14 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Next stop: WIPO? | Jun 14 18:40 |
| maxstirner | media will be excluded from the meeting | Jun 14 18:41 |
| maxstirner | secret agenda? :D | Jun 14 18:41 |
| maxstirner | fixing the world with stolen billions. one step at a time. in secret. | Jun 14 18:42 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: cry a river for poor little rich man... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009318238_apwagatesfoundationendowment.html < Economic downturn hits world's richest foundation > | Jun 14 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Seatttle Times | Jun 14 18:42 |
| schestowitz | You whose agenda they set | Jun 14 18:42 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: no media? | Jun 14 18:43 |
| schestowitz | Does that say it? | Jun 14 18:43 |
| maxstirner | in the link you posted above yes | Jun 14 18:43 |
| maxstirner | i did see an article about the english rich list, elton john or something like that lost a third | Jun 14 18:43 |
| maxstirner | http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZCmJsVtrriRa5dXaQuh3nd_RifAD98N2M103 | Jun 14 18:44 |
| maxstirner | last sentence | Jun 14 18:44 |
| schestowitz | AP | Jun 14 18:44 |
| maxstirner | i dont really understand why that would be | Jun 14 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Thanks | Jun 14 18:44 |
| maxstirner | necessary? | Jun 14 18:44 |
| schestowitz | It's a good fit for my posy about Merckosoft | Jun 14 18:44 |
| schestowitz | They kiss and hug now | Jun 14 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Hires New GM for U.S. Distribution and Services http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Hires-New-GM-for-U-S-Distribution-and-Services-113634.shtml | Jun 14 18:45 |
| maxstirner | i think with bill g it is also the rockefeller syndrome, the richest are often the most hated, he's probably christian as well so they do start giving away a bit due to going to hell paranoia | Jun 14 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Cramer: Don't Panic in the Pause < http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=13889563&src=finance&ch=633473 > | Jun 14 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Did you see Cramer getting busted for supposedly playing stocks using his show? (pumpin' them) | Jun 14 18:46 |
| maxstirner | nope | Jun 14 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Who, Gates? | Jun 14 18:46 |
| maxstirner | yes | Jun 14 18:46 |
| schestowitz | No, Jewish | Jun 14 18:46 |
| maxstirner | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller#Philanthropy | Jun 14 18:46 |
| maxstirner | "richest person in history" | Jun 14 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Not that it matters | Jun 14 18:47 |
| maxstirner | he may have a conscience either way ;) | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | Probably not practising either, so it's just a descent thing | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | He still have his familay around | Jun 14 18:47 |
| maxstirner | well living in a post-christian guilt-ridden society | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | it's a dynasty | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | Gates too | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | His dad, wife, others | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | Now Jeff Raikes | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | They made his hand of the B&M Foundry | Jun 14 18:47 |
| schestowitz | *head | Jun 14 18:48 |
| maxstirner | i suppose gates was fairly self-made in comparison to rockefeller or gwb | Jun 14 18:48 |
| schestowitz | "John Davison Rockefeller (July 8, 1839 – May 23, 1937) was an American industrialist and philanthropist. Rockefeller revolutionized the petroleum industry and defined the structure of modern philanthropy. In 1870, he founded the Standard Oil Company and ran it until he officially retired in 1897" | Jun 14 18:48 |
| schestowitz | "The owners of the country" ;-) | Jun 14 18:48 |
| schestowitz | To be fair, other countries have these too | Jun 14 18:48 |
| schestowitz | Carlos Slim, people in places like Dubai (the prince) | Jun 14 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Not sure where wealth is centralised in China... | Jun 14 18:49 |
| maxstirner | certainly.. the point being: note philant. defining factor in his biography | Jun 14 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Ha | Jun 14 18:49 |
| schestowitz | PR makeover | Jun 14 18:49 |
| schestowitz | They pay for that stuff | Jun 14 18:49 |
| schestowitz | To people like Berman | Jun 14 18:49 |
| maxstirner | you dont want a legacy as richest oil billionaire ever | Jun 14 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Who is an expert in fake charities | Jun 14 18:49 |
| maxstirner | i suppose.. i think its guilt as well, you seem to think its 100% marketing and tax evasion | Jun 14 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Yes, but it's a systematic fatality | Jun 14 18:52 |
| schestowitz | And the better solution is to fix the market | Jun 14 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Inc. regulators | Jun 14 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Not 10 years late (like the EU Commision) | Jun 14 18:52 |
| schestowitz | And there should be jail time | Jun 14 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Jail is not there for shoplifers | Jun 14 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Shite-collar criminals are the most harmful to society | Jun 14 18:53 |
| maxstirner | i wouldnt depend on the EU commission to be or become overly democratic or pro-people | Jun 14 18:53 |
| schestowitz | In many ways, shoplfting is upped by white collar crime | Jun 14 18:53 |
| maxstirner | jail is precisely for shoplifters, protection of property was always the most important function of the modern state ;) | Jun 14 18:53 |
| schestowitz | As in, "the rich steal from us, then we can nick this and that" | Jun 14 18:53 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: so how do you punish those who profiteer with crime? | Jun 14 18:54 |
| schestowitz | House arrest? | Jun 14 18:54 |
| schestowitz | Fines? | Jun 14 18:54 |
| schestowitz | Deposition? | Jun 14 18:54 |
| maxstirner | of course there should be prison for that | Jun 14 18:54 |
| maxstirner | but its illusionary really | Jun 14 18:54 |
| maxstirner | in classical terms you lock up thieving povs, not greedy rich people | Jun 14 18:55 |
| maxstirner | http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/20/peers-suspended-cash-for-amendments | Jun 14 18:56 |
| maxstirner | its funny, he even bragged they do this sort of thing all the time | Jun 14 18:56 |
| _Hicham_ | what are u doing DaemonMDV? | Jun 14 18:57 |
| maxstirner | i was just reminded by your post regarding botnets on smartmeters | Jun 14 18:57 |
| maxstirner | http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5581547.ece | Jun 14 18:57 |
| maxstirner | Lord Truscott, the former energy minister, said he had helped to ensure the Energy Bill was favourable to a client selling “smart” electricity meters. Lord Taylor of Blackburn claimed he had changed the law to help his client Experian, the credit check company. | Jun 14 18:57 |
| maxstirner | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/smart_grid_security_risks/ | Jun 14 18:59 |
| maxstirner | Buggy 'smart meters' open door to power-grid botnet | Jun 14 18:59 |
| DaemonMDV | your mother | Jun 14 18:59 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 18:59 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : u said that u r gay | Jun 14 19:00 |
| maxstirner | oh dear | Jun 14 19:01 |
| _Hicham_ | so u can only be done | Jun 14 19:01 |
| maxstirner | off topic? | Jun 14 19:01 |
| _Hicham_ | u can't do anything | Jun 14 19:01 |
| DaemonMDV | just slightly off topic | Jun 14 19:01 |
| maxstirner | terrible | Jun 14 19:01 |
| _Hicham_ | maxstirner : don't worry, it is usual in here | Jun 14 19:01 |
| maxstirner | great | Jun 14 19:02 |
| *maxstirner is not interested in the sexual preferences of random irc participants | Jun 14 19:02 | |
| _Mutex_ | max it always amuses me what I see headlines like that, as if the smart meter whispers "Psst hay you, ive got this port open, come in and hack me" !! | Jun 14 19:02 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : I don't think that u even have a dick | Jun 14 19:02 |
| _Hicham_ | just a big ass | Jun 14 19:02 |
| _Mutex_ | as if someone is on thair computer and suddenly for no reason they have "access" to the power grid :) | Jun 14 19:03 |
| *DaemonMDV has pictures but that's really off topic | Jun 14 19:03 | |
| _Mutex_ | just by accident | Jun 14 19:03 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : go see this http://free2g1c.com/ | Jun 14 19:06 |
| *mib_kdeff9 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Jun 14 19:07 | |
| *rishabh has quit ("leaving") | Jun 14 19:08 | |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: I'm back | Jun 14 19:09 |
| schestowitz | Let me catch up | Jun 14 19:09 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : have u been in the gym? | Jun 14 19:10 |
| maxstirner | you've missed the dick jokes | Jun 14 19:10 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Jun 14 19:11 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, just caught up with that | Jun 14 19:11 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV said he was doing someone's mom | Jun 14 19:11 |
| schestowitz | That's why trolls are no good here | Jun 14 19:11 |
| maxstirner | :D is that how it started | Jun 14 19:11 |
| schestowitz | They muddy the water | Jun 14 19:12 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : I can deal with that, don't worry | Jun 14 19:12 |
| _Hicham_ | I always try to well behave with him, but he is like u know | Jun 14 19:12 |
| schestowitz | It's amazing how MS PR people always get the scoop on dead MS products | Jun 14 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Like MS Money in this case | Jun 14 19:13 |
| schestowitz | PR stunts | Jun 14 19:13 |
| schestowitz | How to cushion the blow | Jun 14 19:13 |
| maxstirner | i don't really get it, were they ever selling lots? | Jun 14 19:13 |
| maxstirner | i've only ever seen quicken in operation for private finance, rest is SAP etc | Jun 14 19:14 |
| _Hicham_ | Obama is accused of being Anti-Semitic, funny | Jun 14 19:16 |
| maxstirner | because they appear to be imposing restrictions on the israeli army massacring the palestinian population? | Jun 14 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | yes, that is it | Jun 14 19:18 |
| _Hicham_ | it is the right party people who says that | Jun 14 19:18 |
| _Hicham_ | they want no restrictions | Jun 14 19:18 |
| DaemonMDV | they should give the Israelis more ammo | Jun 14 19:19 |
| schestowitz | How's this for mentality: http://www.cnbc.com/id/31214480/site/14081545?__source=yahoo|headline|quote|text|&par=yahoo Cramer says: “It’s not about friends. It’s about money. I’m going to take that up. We’ll do some compares to see how Microsoft did. May I make a point, though? He did not overpay for Yahoo!. He didn’t buy it.” | Jun 14 19:19 |
| schestowitz | “It’s not about friends. It’s about money." | Jun 14 19:19 |
| schestowitz | To some people,money is a friend | Jun 14 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | let them take care of each other | Jun 14 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | lots cheaper for us | Jun 14 19:19 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 19:19 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : we are coming to u! | Jun 14 19:20 |
| _Hicham_ | u gonna be fucked right in front of ur computer | Jun 14 19:20 |
| DaemonMDV | whatever | Jun 14 19:20 |
| maxstirner | so how many trollbots have we got on standby here? | Jun 14 19:21 |
| maxstirner | :D | Jun 14 19:21 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV is their head | Jun 14 19:21 |
| _Hicham_ | pkill DaemonMDV | Jun 14 19:21 |
| schestowitz | -9 | Jun 14 19:21 |
| maxstirner | :D | Jun 14 19:22 |
| maxstirner | i was typing that actually | Jun 14 19:22 |
| _Mutex_ | me ;) | Jun 14 19:22 |
| schestowitz | Anyway..... | Jun 14 19:22 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : Open Source World should get more money to counter MS | Jun 14 19:22 |
| _Hicham_ | that is the only way | Jun 14 19:22 |
| _Hicham_ | money=power | Jun 14 19:22 |
| schestowitz | chan addtroll(1); | Jun 14 19:23 |
| schestowitz | Oops. Forgot the slash | Jun 14 19:23 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: not really | Jun 14 19:23 |
| schestowitz | Some people do things for no pay | Jun 14 19:24 |
| schestowitz | But... | Jun 14 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | I know | Jun 14 19:24 |
| schestowitz | Not Cramer | Jun 14 19:24 |
| schestowitz | “It’s not about friends. It’s about money." | Jun 14 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | we need more full time Open Source devs | Jun 14 19:24 |
| schestowitz | He talked about Bill &Steve | Jun 14 19:24 |
| _Hicham_ | full time devs are more productive | Jun 14 19:24 |
| _Mutex_ | I was going to say the same, its better to have more good quality devs, than few devs and lots of money | Jun 14 19:25 |
| _Hicham_ | why not have both? | Jun 14 19:25 |
| _Mutex_ | money will come, and so will market share, as the code improves, as good as it is, its still got a long ways to go. | Jun 14 19:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Korean Court Finds Microsoft Guilty in Anti-trust Case < http://ping.fm/1S11B > | Jun 14 19:25 | |
| _Hicham_ | which code _Mutex_? | Jun 14 19:25 |
| _Mutex_ | GNU/Linux everything, the whole lot | Jun 14 19:26 |
| _Hicham_ | the code is great | Jun 14 19:26 |
| _Hicham_ | even better than Windows in some cases | Jun 14 19:26 |
| _Mutex_ | no the code is good, its far from great. | Jun 14 19:26 |
| _Hicham_ | I know | Jun 14 19:26 |
| _Mutex_ | saying its great or "perfect" implies little or no further work is necessary, and thats far from the case. | Jun 14 19:26 |
| _Hicham_ | nothing is perfect | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Mutex_ | Ubuntu alone has a massive and growing bugs list. | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Hicham_ | due to their patches | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Mutex_ | I know nothing its perfect, thats no reason to settle for average. | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Hicham_ | their patches create most of the bugs | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Mutex_ | Its like saying its impossible to debug 11 millions lines of code | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Mutex_ | why is it, | Jun 14 19:27 |
| _Mutex_ | if it was impossible, it would be impossible to write it. | Jun 14 19:28 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not impossible, but needs time | Jun 14 19:28 |
| _Mutex_ | and he's right you cant debug 11 mil lines, but hunderds of people could all debug a few functions or bugs. | Jun 14 19:28 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why we created test units | Jun 14 19:29 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, exactly, we've had 17 plus years at this, it should be getting to the stage where large chunks are bug free and stable and of high quality, it will get there, | Jun 14 19:29 |
| _Mutex_ | test units are a part or sub-section of quality assurance especially for software. | Jun 14 19:30 |
| _Mutex_ | take and sit through a few formal code reviews, and your coding will go from average to very good very quickly. | Jun 14 19:30 |
| _Mutex_ | when you have to explain every single line of code in your function to 4 or 5 very experienced programmer who will try to pick it to bits, you learn fast how to make great code | Jun 14 19:31 |
| _Mutex_ | the is easy to read, understand and most of all explain and simple english | Jun 14 19:31 |
| _Hicham_ | things will improve greatly when link time optimization will be implemented in gcc | Jun 14 19:32 |
| _Mutex_ | that combined with strict coding standards, (not just indentations), but structurally, goes a long way to making great code. | Jun 14 19:32 |
| _Mutex_ | Yes, it will, but you cant rely on optimisation C compilers to create good quality code, because it dont work that way. | Jun 14 19:33 |
| _Mutex_ | even with the best tools you can still easy create rubbish. | Jun 14 19:33 |
| _Mutex_ | (i know) | Jun 14 19:33 |
| Omar87 | Okay people, I'm sincerely becoming a huge fan of Chris Pirillo.. | Jun 14 19:34 |
| schestowitz | Meh | Jun 14 19:34 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: huh? | Jun 14 19:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Watch this picture: http://ping.fm/KRSCA | Jun 14 19:35 | |
| schestowitz | Omar87: Chris is a MS MVP | Jun 14 19:46 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: That's not so true. | Jun 14 19:46 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft gave him this 'title' not in vain | Jun 14 19:46 |
| schestowitz | He serves them | Jun 14 19:46 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: no, it's true | Jun 14 19:46 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: I believe he's neutral. | Jun 14 19:47 |
| schestowitz | It's a binary thing | Jun 14 19:47 |
| schestowitz | Unless they took it away from him | Jun 14 19:47 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: No it's not. | Jun 14 19:47 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Because he talks pretty good about GPL, open source and Linux. | Jun 14 19:47 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Especially when he talked about Tonido, the GPL'ed file/content sharing application. | Jun 14 19:48 |
| schestowitz | Forrester may be using biased populations to make fake surveys. http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/06/12/how-are-iphone-owners-different-forrester-counts-the-ways/?source=yahoo_quote | Jun 14 19:48 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: that's how they pull people | Jun 14 19:48 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Huh?? | Jun 14 19:48 |
| schestowitz | To captivate people outside the choir | Jun 14 19:48 |
| Omar87 | I don't understand. | Jun 14 19:49 |
| schestowitz | If he only spoke about MS, then he would speak to the choir | Jun 14 19:49 |
| schestowitz | But by reaching out to others he can achieve more | Jun 14 19:49 |
| schestowitz | Never mind. | Jun 14 19:49 |
| schestowitz | He supports MS crimes by action IMHO | Jun 14 19:49 |
| schestowitz | I argued with him about it | Jun 14 19:49 |
| schestowitz | He's still in their pockets | Jun 14 19:49 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: No offense, seriously, but I'm not gonna listen to you a lot anymore. :) | Jun 14 19:49 |
| Omar87 | Because this can't be considered anything more than paranoia, no offense again. | Jun 14 19:50 |
| schestowitz | VMware Apologizes To Microsoft For Hyper-V Bashing http://www.crn.com/software/217801019;jsessionid=2IVVTCJIZDWZIQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JVN | Jun 14 19:50 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hYS8CIYEBgudlm2SjLh0xekik0RwD98QK1182 | Jun 14 19:50 |
| DaemonMDV | Stimulus Bill was bullshit | Jun 14 19:50 |
| DaemonMDV | Biden on the run | Jun 14 19:50 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: OK | Jun 14 19:50 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 19:50 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Can you prove that he's an MS goon? | Jun 14 19:51 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 14 19:51 |
| Omar87 | Okay, go ahead. | Jun 14 19:51 |
| schestowitz | For example: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/12/22/antitrust-microsoft-apologist/ | Jun 14 19:53 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Browser Offer Fails to Impress Europe < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/technology/companies/13euro.html?ref=world > nationalist \press' | Jun 14 19:55 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: mind you, I'm like friends with Chris | Jun 14 19:56 |
| schestowitz | I speak with him sometimes, but I know where he's at | Jun 14 19:56 |
| schestowitz | MS made him what he is.. | Jun 14 19:56 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: You know him personally? | Jun 14 19:56 |
| schestowitz | Not really. I mean, we sometimes excahnge messages | Jun 14 19:56 |
| schestowitz | He's not rude and neither am I | Jun 14 19:57 |
| schestowitz | But he seems to have no problems with MS' behaviour | Jun 14 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Because he drinks their Kool-Aid | Jun 14 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Just cause he doesn't like VIsta doesn't mean he's opposed to the corruption | Jun 14 19:57 |
| Omar87 | But is there any way anyone would become what he is without MS influence? | Jun 14 19:57 |
| schestowitz | I don't care much about MS products | Jun 14 19:57 |
| schestowitz | I care about how they attack Linux | Jun 14 19:57 |
| schestowitz | and competition in general | Jun 14 19:58 |
| schestowitz | And how they steal money from the public | Jun 14 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Lie | Jun 14 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Write letter on behalf of dead people | Jun 14 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Do smear campaigns gainst people | Jun 14 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Avade tax | Jun 14 19:58 |
| schestowitz | And so on and so forth | Jun 14 19:58 |
| Omar87 | By that, you mean Killdall, righ? | Jun 14 19:58 |
| Omar87 | right* | Jun 14 19:59 |
| _Mutex_ | I can more about improving Linux that bringing MS down to a lower level, why not just make Linux uber good. | Jun 14 19:59 |
| _Mutex_ | there always seems to be far more posts knocking MS than there are trying to improve FOSS. movement needs balance IMHO. | Jun 14 20:00 |
| Omar87 | _Mutex_: Agreed. | Jun 14 20:02 |
| *neonfloss (n=neon@66.212.183.50) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 20:04 | |
| Omar87 | I hate it when he said "So.. ah.. Microsoft got in trouble in the state of IOWA", as If Microsoft is the victim and the government of IOWA is the bad guy.. >< | Jun 14 20:05 |
| DaemonMDV | Iowa? | Jun 14 20:07 |
| DaemonMDV | What the hell? | Jun 14 20:07 |
| DaemonMDV | Did the cows revolt against Vista too? | Jun 14 20:07 |
| *mib_2b035m (i=5660e35a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-abdbbb3985ef5fb6) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 20:09 | |
| schestowitz | Loads of pointless MS PR in the news: Microsoft CEO Ballmer to push innovation < http://www.freep.com/article/20090614/BUSINESS06/906140421/1019/BUSINESS/Microsoft+CEO+Ballmer+to+push+innovation > | Jun 14 20:09 |
| DaemonMDV | there's like 1 major city in the state of Iowa | Jun 14 20:10 |
| DaemonMDV | and the rest of the state, people move there so they can watch their dog running away from them | Jun 14 20:10 |
| DaemonMDV | for 3 weeks | Jun 14 20:10 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, now I know your on koolAID | Jun 14 20:10 |
| DaemonMDV | seriously, there is miles of nothing | Jun 14 20:10 |
| DaemonMDV | who is suing Microsoft from Iowa? | Jun 14 20:11 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, seriously, you have no clue what your talking about | Jun 14 20:11 |
| DaemonMDV | ok, a slight exaggeration, but don't be low on gas when you head in | Jun 14 20:11 |
| *mib_2b035m has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 14 20:12 | |
| DaemonMDV | might want to pack a lunch in case you go 200 miles without seeing any fast food | Jun 14 20:12 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 20:12 |
| neighborlee | better | Jun 14 20:12 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 20:12 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonMDV the drifter dreams of having a car | Jun 14 20:12 |
| *DaemonMDV has a car | Jun 14 20:12 | |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: I'm not sure what I', having this idea of flooding Pirillo's inbox with questions and debates asking him about his views. | Jun 14 20:12 |
| DaemonMDV | "I first tried running the SuSE livecd, and it went through a great proportion of the booting… then froze. After 3 attempts, I gave up. I have fairly generic hardware (not ati either), so theoretically, it should work. It didn’t." | Jun 14 20:14 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.geekosophical.net/?p=8 | Jun 14 20:14 |
| DaemonMDV | sounds about right | Jun 14 20:14 |
| DaemonMDV | If you're going to get a crash and burn on a LiveCD installer it'll usually be Suse, sometimes Mandriva, and up til now Fedora was doing pretty well | Jun 14 20:15 |
| DaemonMDV | it seems like the only distribution with the LiveCD thing down to an art is Ubuntu | Jun 14 20:15 |
| DaemonMDV | I generally just don't even bother with those things | Jun 14 20:16 |
| DaemonMDV | every time I've been tempted it usually turns out badly | Jun 14 20:16 |
| _Mutex_ | "Microsoft CEO Ballmer to push innovation" not for MS but for the Entire USA, I dont see this as a bad thing to get the US to focus on more innovation (in general), and gain/retain the very high level of tech development the US is known for. Like the transistor !! the IC, the OP-Amp, 64bit parallel digital multiplier, ECL and so on. should be more of it, and just because Ballmer said does not make it bad OR wrong IMO. | Jun 14 20:18 |
| DaemonMDV | we make it, we make it work | Jun 14 20:19 |
| DaemonMDV | the chinese make pirate copies | Jun 14 20:19 |
| DaemonMDV | stiff us | Jun 14 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | sell them to other countries with no laws | Jun 14 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | profit? | Jun 14 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 20:20 |
| _Mutex_ | sure you make it, but no reason not to push for more and better, you think you can sit on your lorrels and do nothing ? | Jun 14 20:20 |
| _Mutex_ | expect someone else to do it for you ? | Jun 14 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | well, the Chinese don't do quality | Jun 14 20:20 |
| DaemonMDV | they won't make the best of anything, far from it | Jun 14 20:21 |
| DaemonMDV | they'll make some slow ARM-based pieces of junk | Jun 14 20:21 |
| DaemonMDV | stick some Linux on it that's dolled up to look like Windows XP From Hell Edition | Jun 14 20:21 |
| DaemonMDV | and call it a day | Jun 14 20:21 |
| DaemonMDV | it's what they do :) | Jun 14 20:21 |
| _Mutex_ | thats not the issue, we are talking about the US not china, its a bad habbit to lower yourself to the lowers common denominator, | Jun 14 20:21 |
| DaemonMDV | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/eb/Redflag-large.preview.jpg | Jun 14 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | Red Flag Linux | Jun 14 20:22 |
| _Mutex_ | Mabey thats your problem, mabey thats why the US auto-industry is in tatters, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. | Jun 14 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | the dominant Linux in China | Jun 14 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | looks like a cheap XP knock off | Jun 14 20:22 |
| _Mutex_ | forget china, do you life in china ? | Jun 14 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | runs the user as root | Jun 14 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | are we seeing a pattern here? | Jun 14 20:22 |
| Omar87 | So, where did Roy go? | Jun 14 20:22 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux | Jun 14 20:23 |
| DaemonMDV | they know they'll never get people transitioned over from pirate XP with something that looks totally foreign to them | Jun 14 20:23 |
| DaemonMDV | like Ubuntu for example | Jun 14 20:24 |
| DaemonMDV | so they doll up this Red Flag Linux to work like XP | Jun 14 20:24 |
| _Mutex_ | I know about red flag linux, i dont see y our point and I dont think I can, I was talking about Innovation in the US, I dont give 2 hoots about china or the UK for that matter | Jun 14 20:24 |
| _Mutex_ | DeamonMDB SOMETIMES !!!! | Jun 14 20:24 |
| DaemonMDV | the only third world Linux that looks like something I would like to use comes from Iran | Jun 14 20:25 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 14 20:25 | |
| DaemonMDV | oddly enough | Jun 14 20:25 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont know or care what your talking about Deamon | Jun 14 20:25 |
| DaemonMDV | it all boils down to, they're using Linux yes | Jun 14 20:25 |
| DaemonMDV | not cause it's the best | Jun 14 20:25 |
| DaemonMDV | it's what they can afford | Jun 14 20:26 |
| DaemonMDV | free | Jun 14 20:26 |
| DaemonMDV | on cheap knock off CPU designs that are slow and not x86-compatible | Jun 14 20:26 |
| _Mutex_ | does he have an off switch ?? | Jun 14 20:26 |
| _Hicham_ | _Mutex_ : in his ass | Jun 14 20:28 |
| DaemonMDV | "Linux has become much more popular in the last two years, but in terms of deployment it still can't compare with Windows. Unfortunately, there is no copyright law in Iran, so everybody can buy cheap copies of popular software. When a user buys a PC, it often comes with more than $5,000 worth of pre-installed software applications for free (including Windows, MS Office, AutoCad, Adobe Photoshop, Corel Draw, 3DMax and more). As | Jun 14 20:29 |
| DaemonMDV | such, Iran's IT industry has become virtually dependent on Microsoft and other closed source technologies. People start learning computers with Windows and other closed source software and most of them don't even know that other operating systems exist." | Jun 14 20:29 |
| neighborlee | DaemonMDV, for many people in world linux is adequate ( basic apps and surfing etc. ) and free, yes it does hugely factor into that decision process..its the wave of future even though sure atm its not there yet..Im happy to agree with you on that at least :) <free> | Jun 14 20:29 |
| DaemonMDV | in countries with copyright law, Windows prevails | Jun 14 20:29 |
| DaemonMDV | in countries with no copyright law, Windows does even better | Jun 14 20:29 |
| DaemonMDV | http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060123#interview | Jun 14 20:29 |
| schestowitz | Someone says: "Bryan Lunduke has been writing a lot about his attempts to make money from writing proprietary commercial software lately. I had initially decided not to ever mention any of his posts because I believe the man to be first and foremost an attention-seeker" http://srcview.org/2009/05/commercial-software-on-linux/ | Jun 14 20:29 |
| schestowitz | I want nothing to do with him. (Lunduke) | Jun 14 20:30 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: there's no doing better | Jun 14 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Giving Windows at no cost is not doing well | Jun 14 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : seeking money is not bad | Jun 14 20:30 |
| schestowitz | It's dying commerically for such a company | Jun 14 20:30 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: non-Free software | Jun 14 20:30 |
| DaemonMDV | they steal it and there's no punishment if they get caught | Jun 14 20:31 |
| schestowitz | Peoprietary | Jun 14 20:31 |
| DaemonMDV | so the incentive to use Linux is weaker | Jun 14 20:31 |
| DaemonMDV | so you get more PCs being pushed with proprietary software | Jun 14 20:31 |
| DaemonMDV | cause it's al lfree | Jun 14 20:31 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : non-Free software is good | Jun 14 20:31 |
| _Hicham_ | in some situations | Jun 14 20:31 |
| DaemonMDV | so what do you do? | Jun 14 20:32 |
| DaemonMDV | If copyright law was revoked, Windows would be even more popular | Jun 14 20:32 |
| _Mutex_ | _Hicham_ Agreed | Jun 14 20:32 |
| _Mutex_ | and sometimes it can only be proprietary, its very common in my field. | Jun 14 20:33 |
| DaemonMDV | Iran shows that in the absence of copyright law, proprietary software is on more systems | Jun 14 20:33 |
| DaemonMDV | so why does Stallman want to get rid of it? | Jun 14 20:33 |
| _Mutex_ | idealogy | Jun 14 20:33 |
| DaemonMDV | obviously in absence of those laws some would still buy Windows because MS can enforce their rights with things like WGA | Jun 14 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | some fields cannot have free software | Jun 14 20:34 |
| DaemonMDV | but it would remove the legal incentive not to steal | Jun 14 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | software which have high development cost | Jun 14 20:34 |
| DaemonMDV | it's like removing the law against robbing banks | Jun 14 20:34 |
| _Mutex_ | but even RMS needed proprietary software to develop gcc, emacs and so on, there is no way around it, everyone uses proprietary code all the time. | Jun 14 20:34 |
| DaemonMDV | what do you think will happen? | Jun 14 20:34 |
| DaemonMDV | I doubt any normal person could use Gnewsense for an hour and not crack | Jun 14 20:35 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 20:35 |
| DaemonMDV | I mean they even removed GLX | Jun 14 20:35 |
| DaemonMDV | what good is it? | Jun 14 20:35 |
| _Mutex_ | _Hitcham_ yes, especially embedded scientific and industrial equipment that is certified and calibrated, both of which would be void is access to the internals were possible. | Jun 14 20:36 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-13-009-35-OS-DB-0003 "This debate has gone on far too long. I haven't read anything new on this in a long time. Can we pull these blog link off linuxtoday for a while. Maybe a story from an attorney familiar with thread would be an interesting read, but this endless back and forth is not newsworthy." | Jun 14 20:36 |
| DaemonMDV | I'll bet Stallman has a Bat Cave with computers that have Ubuntu loaded on them | Jun 14 20:36 |
| schestowitz | Carla gets flak for Mono links | Jun 14 20:36 |
| DaemonMDV | he's just screwing with everyone with Gnewsense | Jun 14 20:36 |
| DaemonMDV | : | Jun 14 20:36 |
| maxstirner | who is dan | Jun 14 20:37 |
| DaemonMDV | nah, what got me into Linux is that it's one of those timesink hobbies | Jun 14 20:37 |
| _Mutex_ | Carla also is paid by MS advertisments on her web site, it always amuses me to see so many MS adds on the Linux Today web site, | Jun 14 20:37 |
| schestowitz | Printing Labels and Business Cards in Ubuntu http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2009/06/11/printing-labels-and-business-cards-in-ubuntu/ | Jun 14 20:37 |
| DaemonMDV | the lady at my ISP gave me a Red Hat Linux disc and from there I went to Mandrake, and so on | Jun 14 20:37 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: I wish we knew | Jun 14 20:38 |
| maxstirner | so its just some random's suggestion to pull the blog links | Jun 14 20:38 |
| DaemonMDV | it took a full year before I could even use Linux as anything other than a novelty | Jun 14 20:38 |
| DaemonMDV | cause 3dfx took their sweet time with video accelerator drivers | Jun 14 20:38 |
| DaemonMDV | I had to compile unofficial modem driver blobs | Jun 14 20:39 |
| DaemonMDV | it was a blast | Jun 14 20:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Avoid Microsoft's Silverlight/Mono poison: http://digg.com/d1tnyd?t | Jun 14 20:40 | |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, well dont get used to it <proprietary yadda>..maybe not your or my lifetimes , but that 'ideology' will be passe eventually :) | Jun 14 20:40 |
| DaemonMDV | even Linux companies sell proprietary software | Jun 14 20:41 |
| _Hicham_ | some industrial software cannot be open sourced | Jun 14 20:41 |
| _Hicham_ | for ever | Jun 14 20:41 |
| DaemonMDV | to make their Linux a little better than the other guys | Jun 14 20:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu does it | Jun 14 20:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Mandriva does it | Jun 14 20:41 |
| DaemonMDV | they both have stores or a paid product that you technically have to buy to make their distro fully functional | Jun 14 20:42 |
| DaemonMDV | See: Add third party repo | Jun 14 20:42 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 20:42 |
| _Hicham_ | no one cares about official codecs | Jun 14 20:42 |
| _Hicham_ | last resort win32codecs | Jun 14 20:42 |
| _Hicham_ | or pitfdlls | Jun 14 20:43 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu tries to sell you a $40 copy of LinDVD now | Jun 14 20:43 |
| _Hicham_ | it is great | Jun 14 20:43 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, cause there's no 30 kilobyte Libdvdcss or anything | Jun 14 20:43 |
| DaemonMDV | oh wait.,., | Jun 14 20:43 |
| _Mutex_ | not in mine, my kids or their Kids, in fact I dont think it will ever be gone, proprietary code is here to stay, so why not be mature and work with it, instead of crying about it. It is there, it is big, it is going to stay, and not go away. You have but one choice really, inconvient as it may been, its to work with them, or live in obscurity. | Jun 14 20:43 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, you have absolutely no proof, or speculation on which to be able to make that claim ;) | Jun 14 20:43 |
| DaemonMDV | What's so great about LinDVD? | Jun 14 20:43 |
| DaemonMDV | VLC busts through the Mackerel Vision bullshit | Jun 14 20:44 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, and judging by how our species has evolved..id say that argument is invalid. | Jun 14 20:44 |
| DaemonMDV | and plays my movie | Jun 14 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | I am not against proprietary software | Jun 14 20:44 |
| _Mutex_ | If feel in 50 years FOSS will still be bickering about triviala things like mono and gpl | Jun 14 20:44 |
| DaemonMDV | why do I want to enrich Ubuntu? | Jun 14 20:44 |
| _Mutex_ | my proof is history, | Jun 14 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | I may release a software as proprietary | Jun 14 20:44 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, maybe the history you would like to see repeated ? ;) | Jun 14 20:44 |
| _Mutex_ | where is proprietary software not, compared to free, do you know how many CPU per person on the planet there is ?? | Jun 14 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | but the OS can't be proprietary | Jun 14 20:44 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu is funding an anti-Linux company | Jun 14 20:45 |
| DaemonMDV | and Microsoft partner | Jun 14 20:45 |
| DaemonMDV | by proxy | Jun 14 20:45 |
| _Hicham_ | I am against closed source OSes | Jun 14 20:45 |
| _Mutex_ | its well over 10 now, probably more, they are ALL proprietary code devices. | Jun 14 20:45 |
| DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinDVD | Jun 14 20:45 |
| DaemonMDV | Developer(s) Corel | Jun 14 20:45 |
| _Mutex_ | how can you say it cant be when IT IS. | Jun 14 20:45 |
| _Mutex_ | and have been for ever | Jun 14 20:45 |
| _Mutex_ | I understand your against something, that does not make it wrong, nor does it make a failure or go away because y ou want it too, | Jun 14 20:46 |
| _Mutex_ | without proprietary code you would not have Linux, you would not have gcc, emacs and a huge amount of other things | Jun 14 20:46 |
| DaemonMDV | http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=243 | Jun 14 20:47 |
| _Mutex_ | you probably would not have a bank account, teller machines, taxi fair meters, instruments (S&I) mission critical systems, flight nav system and so on. | Jun 14 20:47 |
| DaemonMDV | $50 ... or ...1 second free download? | Jun 14 20:47 |
| DaemonMDV | man, that's a brainer | Jun 14 20:48 |
| DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 14 20:48 |
| _Mutex_ | they are going to be here forever and ever, if you are waiting for them to go away because you dont like them, I hope your very very young. | Jun 14 20:48 |
| _Mutex_ | and live for an allfull long time | Jun 14 20:48 |
| DaemonMDV | This software is only compatible with 32 bit systems that have working OpenGL driver support for the graphics hardware. | Jun 14 20:48 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 14 20:48 |
| DaemonMDV | no 64-bit for you | Jun 14 20:48 |
| DaemonMDV | good thing I don't give a rats ass | Jun 14 20:48 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 20:48 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, and over time the dependency on those non free things will go away very quickly | Jun 14 20:49 |
| DaemonMDV | http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=244 | Jun 14 20:49 |
| DaemonMDV | another $40 for codecs | Jun 14 20:49 |
| DaemonMDV | up to $90 for DVD playback and media playback | Jun 14 20:49 |
| DaemonMDV | that's a copy of Vista | Jun 14 20:49 |
| neighborlee | thank god I paid only $50 for mine,used of course but hey | Jun 14 20:49 |
| neighborlee | ~whew | Jun 14 20:49 |
| neighborlee | and that was really too dain much | Jun 14 20:50 |
| DaemonMDV | $90 and you don't even get to encode anything | Jun 14 20:50 |
| DaemonMDV | so I still have to break the law to use my MP3 player | Jun 14 20:50 |
| _Mutex_ | neighborlee, no they wont, they dont even look like starting to think about going away | Jun 14 20:50 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 20:50 |
| DaemonMDV | even if I buy all that shit | Jun 14 20:51 |
| _Mutex_ | it is absolutely no incentive for them to change, they are there they work end of story. | Jun 14 20:51 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, well your generation might think so,,mine not so much | Jun 14 20:51 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 14 20:51 |
| _Mutex_ | my generation knows, dont worry, I will be proven right, as much as you desire otherwise, its not gonna happen, | Jun 14 20:52 |
| _Mutex_ | and if you wait for it you'll just be disipointed and waste your life | Jun 14 20:52 |
| neighborlee | crystal ball ? ;)) | Jun 14 20:52 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, on this I do, | Jun 14 20:52 |
| neighborlee | ok ;)) | Jun 14 20:52 |
| _Mutex_ | I know the industry very very well | Jun 14 20:52 |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jun 14 20:52 |
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| _Mutex_ | so has FOSS got a good IEC61131-3 standard PLC compiler that handles FBD (functional block diagram) LD (ladder diagram) ST structured test) IL (Instruction list "assem") that can handle the symax and DNP protocals, and is capable of providing Citect Supervisory control functions with full reporting and DB, high/low alarms and priority incident reporting and correction in your FOSS tool kit, can it handle PC-104 processers, as well as PLC's and RTU | Jun 14 20:59 |
| neighborlee | People have the right to be free in how they live and conduct their lives ..the mindset of yesterday will very soon be replaced with todays liberation from hate and greed....just look at the voting records and views of todays children teens and young adults...most all are progressive minded...its like a flood you wont be able to stop it when it hits it stride. <and its a good thing,- let freedom ring, yes we can ! > ;)) | Jun 14 21:00 |
| _Mutex_ | sure, but there is freedom and freedom, sounds like your freedom mean I can comeinto your house and raid your fridge, or access your bank account, its nice but its utopian, and if you dont have those tools, and they are not really really good and very mature, no one will use it, so proprietary is here to say, there IS NOT alternative AT ALL. | Jun 14 21:02 |
| DaemonMDV | looks like Mandriva is selling offsite backup space now | Jun 14 21:03 |
| DaemonMDV | 20 gigs for $8 a month | Jun 14 21:03 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, now your talking..you cant get more FUDdy than that ;) | Jun 14 21:03 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, you've been reading too many of Jo's postings I fear ;) | Jun 14 21:03 |
| _Mutex_ | facts are not fud, you know what FUD stands for ? | Jun 14 21:04 |
| _Mutex_ | if its fud youll show me those packages I asked about please, otherwise no FUD from me. | Jun 14 21:04 |
| schestowitz | Steven Pinker .. interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMReUsxTt4 | Jun 14 21:04 |
| _Goblin | hi all.... | Jun 14 21:04 |
| DaemonMDV | interesting | Jun 14 21:04 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, what flavoris that koolaid | Jun 14 21:04 |
| DaemonMDV | that does sound kind of useful | Jun 14 21:04 |
| *_Goblin is now known as Mr_Popularity | Jun 14 21:04 | |
| neighborlee | Mr_Popularity, lol | Jun 14 21:04 |
| DaemonMDV | I don't know if I trust them with my files though | Jun 14 21:04 |
| Mr_Popularity | oh yes...Ive pulled a cracker.. | Jun 14 21:05 |
| Mr_Popularity | (in IT terms) | Jun 14 21:05 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont need to FUD, ill leave that to others who need that crutch. | Jun 14 21:05 |
| Mr_Popularity | Ive just been calling out TPB and their weak pro-piracy argument... | Jun 14 21:05 |
| Mr_Popularity | I've suggested to them if (as they imply) piracy is good for creativity..they should concentrate their efforts to challenging Microsoft antics. | Jun 14 21:06 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, utopia means heaven on earth.but I can understand a mindset not wanting that, since effectively it keeps 'classes' of people, rich and poor,,,the rich being able to rule with iron fist of oppression..oh yes they can!! | Jun 14 21:06 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, nice try | Jun 14 21:06 |
| _Mutex_ | but I must say that here its not uncommon after presenting a strong argument, to get a simple reply of "FUD". I know its easier than forming a rational and intelligent answer, i understand. | Jun 14 21:06 |
| neighborlee | busted | Jun 14 21:06 |
| _Mutex_ | out of all I said, you pick up on ONE word :) | Jun 14 21:07 |
| neighborlee | I picked up a mindset from several words | Jun 14 21:07 |
| neighborlee | raid, utopian..yadda | Jun 14 21:07 |
| neighborlee | keep up | Jun 14 21:07 |
| neighborlee | point is , I guess its easy to mock freedom , when greed is what we're thinking about | Jun 14 21:08 |
| _Mutex_ | ok, i supposed you kinda glased over when I asked you a simple and sensible question then ? | Jun 14 21:08 |
| _Mutex_ | im not thinking about greed, Im one of those who actually could not care less about money, | Jun 14 21:08 |
| neighborlee | maybe its your military background | Jun 14 21:08 |
| _Mutex_ | Sorry its just cold hard reality, if you dont have those tools, you cannot play in that field, end of story, and you dont have those tools. | Jun 14 21:09 |
| _Mutex_ | thats all I was saying, I just wanted to show you that waiting for proprietary code to go away is a fools folly. | Jun 14 21:09 |
| neighborlee | my friend has the same fault..he can't see beyone 2 weeks | Jun 14 21:10 |
| _Mutex_ | a pipe dream. (mabey not utopia, which i was refering to the swirve online game) | Jun 14 21:10 |
| neighborlee | swirve ? | Jun 14 21:10 |
| _Mutex_ | its not two weeks, its more like 20 years, but I see little point in arguing, fact is its not going to happen, FOSS does not have the toolchain for SCADA, end of story. | Jun 14 21:11 |
| neighborlee | just like there is no god, and we'll never go faster than speed of light ;) | Jun 14 21:12 |
| neighborlee | oh yes we can't! | Jun 14 21:12 |
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| _Hicham_ | we can go faster than the speed of light | Jun 14 21:15 |
| _Hicham_ | and there is god | Jun 14 21:15 |
| DaemonMDV | http://seaarrrgh.com/ | Jun 14 21:15 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, thank you :) | Jun 14 21:15 |
| DaemonMDV | Scientology cult protesters | Jun 14 21:15 |
| maxstirner | nice | Jun 14 21:16 |
| DaemonMDV | EXCELLENT video | Jun 14 21:17 |
| DaemonMDV | whoa | Jun 14 21:17 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 14 21:17 |
| _Hicham_ | it has been found that some elements can go faster than the speed of light | Jun 14 21:17 |
| _Mutex_ | nice thing about going at the speed of light, is that time stops, so you arrive at the same time as you leave, no matter how far you traveled :) | Jun 14 21:17 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, are you thinking of Tachyons | Jun 14 21:19 |
| _Mutex_ | no tachyons travel (supposidly) faster than the speedd of light, (which you cant do), no im talking about travelling AT the speed of light,, more like a photon | Jun 14 21:20 |
| neighborlee | oh | Jun 14 21:20 |
| _Mutex_ | and of course you can travel at the speed of light, but as you have mass it will take all the available energy in the unerverse plus some to accelerate you to that speed of 299792.5Kms /S | Jun 14 21:21 |
| schestowitz | tacone just posted this: http://www.stefanoforenza.com/mono-here-we-go-again/ | Jun 14 21:21 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: have a look | Jun 14 21:21 |
| neighborlee | I still dont buy into time slowing down....what expeirment has proven that | Jun 14 21:21 |
| neighborlee | hm | Jun 14 21:22 |
| _Mutex_ | GPL satellites travelling quite a bit slower than the speed of light experience the same time dilation effect, and their onboard clocks have to be periodically corrected for it. | Jun 14 21:22 |
| DaemonMDV | Hotmail POP3 is just bizarre | Jun 14 21:22 |
| DaemonMDV | you have to use SSL for incoming but TLS for outgoing now\ | Jun 14 21:22 |
| _Mutex_ | GPS satellites | Jun 14 21:22 |
| maxstirner | nice shields debunk there | Jun 14 21:23 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Did you notice Opera's viral advertising? | Jun 14 21:23 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, tacone | Jun 14 21:23 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.opera.com/freedom/ | Jun 14 21:24 |
| schestowitz | We were just talking about your post | Jun 14 21:24 |
| maxstirner | oh is he present? | Jun 14 21:24 |
| maxstirner | nice | Jun 14 21:24 |
| tacone | badly ? | Jun 14 21:24 |
| schestowitz | No. | Jun 14 21:24 |
| schestowitz | <maxstirner> nice shields debunk there | Jun 14 21:24 |
| maxstirner | i like the tit for tat debunking youre doing | Jun 14 21:24 |
| tacone | maxstirner: i'm not present. it's my brother :P | Jun 14 21:24 |
| DaemonMDV | any idea what this means? | Jun 14 21:24 |
| neighborlee | shields has zero credibility....he's a massive joke. | Jun 14 21:24 |
| tacone | no | Jun 14 21:24 |
| tacone | shields is a clever guy in many ways. | Jun 14 21:24 |
| neighborlee | irrelvant to maximum | Jun 14 21:24 |
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| DaemonMDV | On June 16th at 9:00 a.m (CEDT), we will reinvent the Web. | Jun 14 21:25 |
| tacone | he's able to write and he's technically wise | Jun 14 21:25 |
| DaemonMDV | hmmm | Jun 14 21:25 |
| neighborlee | he's childish ..hard to take anything he says seriously... | Jun 14 21:25 |
| schestowitz | I agree with tacone | Jun 14 21:25 |
| tacone | still he's not right in many things. | Jun 14 21:25 |
| schestowitz | But Jo is misled | Jun 14 21:25 |
| neighborlee | no | Jun 14 21:25 |
| schestowitz | He refuses the see the issue | Jun 14 21:25 |
| neighborlee | he's more than misled | Jun 14 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Because he has faith in Mono | Jun 14 21:25 |
| maxstirner | i felt his post wasnt hysterical as they get, but nonetheless fairly emotional | Jun 14 21:25 |
| schestowitz | He can't reverse now | Jun 14 21:25 |
| tacone | in some way he's been fucked by his friends :) | Jun 14 21:25 |
| neighborlee | he's rude , abrasive and frequently insulting,, | Jun 14 21:25 |
| tacone | not just him, neighborlee | Jun 14 21:25 |
| DaemonMDV | "We are! We've put the internet on a USB stick so that you can always have a connection wherever you are!" | Jun 14 21:25 |
| neighborlee | tacone, and for that he can talk to me anytime..no excuse to be rude and abrasive | Jun 14 21:26 |
| DaemonMDV | http://twitter.com/Hicksdesign/status/2115660578 | Jun 14 21:26 |
| tacone | the most important thing in my post is the most hidden. mononono project. | Jun 14 21:26 |
| neighborlee | nice to make that more visible, yes. | Jun 14 21:27 |
| tacone | being rude is not cool. but what matter ultimately is what you say. | Jun 14 21:27 |
| schestowitz | The Betanews case for a lightweight operating system < http://arebentisch.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/the-betanews-case-for-a-lightweight-operating-system/ > | Jun 14 21:27 |
| tacone | still he's making disinformation about boycottnovell | Jun 14 21:27 |
| maxstirner | yes that got very bitchy | Jun 14 21:28 |
| neighborlee | tacone, clearly | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | <anon> hi Roy | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | <anon> have you seen this one? https://bugs.launchpad.net/mononono | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | <anon> looks interesting. seems like a collection of legal issues related to Mono & Moonlight, each well documented | Jun 14 21:28 |
| tacone | boycottnovell may be wrong or exagereted some time. but it's still a massive and valuable work. | Jun 14 21:28 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, hm | Jun 14 21:28 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/bing_review/ | Jun 14 21:28 |
| tacone | schestowitz: :D | Jun 14 21:28 |
| DaemonMDV | "Never mind the odd name. Did Microsoft really not foresee that Bing could be used as a handy way to side-step porn filters? And was it really necessary to bolster Wikipedia's position as the web's number-one source of truthiness?" | Jun 14 21:28 |
| DaemonMDV | lmao | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | tacone: he's quote picking | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | Other people's comments | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | Which we never can delete | Jun 14 21:28 |
| neighborlee | tacone, I do not always..blindly agree with roy..I just disageed seconds ago | Jun 14 21:28 |
| schestowitz | Heck, he could say BN uses the word "fsck" | Jun 14 21:29 |
| neighborlee | tacone, but ..I dont recall his never retracting or not correcting errors | Jun 14 21:29 |
| schestowitz | And then link to his OWN comments in BN | Jun 14 21:29 |
| maxstirner | his last showing in the comments section on BN is super pleasing | Jun 14 21:29 |
| tacone | nobody is always agreeing roy. we reserve the right to insult him from time to time :) | Jun 14 21:29 |
| neighborlee | tacone, nor is his tone frequently in the gutter....rarely - | Jun 14 21:29 |
| tacone | schestowitz: right, that's what I'm saying. | Jun 14 21:29 |
| tacone | shields big mistake is to mix good stuff with the worst crap. | Jun 14 21:29 |
| _Mutex_ | how long do you think this mono brewhaha is going to go on for ? | Jun 14 21:29 |
| tacone | icaza is much smarter. | Jun 14 21:29 |
| neighborlee | tacone, yes . | Jun 14 21:30 |
| _Mutex_ | untill we all get sick of it and go and play outside ? :) | Jun 14 21:30 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, till its gone. | Jun 14 21:30 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, where it beLONGes ;)) | Jun 14 21:30 |
| _Mutex_ | OK, so awile then | Jun 14 21:30 |
| tacone | _Mutex_: i want to leave something to the takers, when I'll get bored. | Jun 14 21:30 |
| DaemonMDV | http://javafx.com/ | Jun 14 21:30 |
| tacone | i'll leave mononono launchpad project. | Jun 14 21:30 |
| DaemonMDV | that must be their answer to Avalon | Jun 14 21:30 |
| tacone | so they don't have to rewrite the same shit over and over. | Jun 14 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linuxplanet.org/blogs/?cat=1132 The Mono Crusade | Jun 14 21:31 |
| _Mutex_ | its GPL its out there allready, it's in the wild, and like every other bit of GPL code, its here FOREVER !! | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | tacone: someone just sent me this | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | Is this related to you? | Jun 14 21:31 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, it not just us..fedora treats it just as we do..go ask them as well for comment if you think our view is so outside reality ;)) | Jun 14 21:31 |
| _Mutex_ | and the FOSS people point out as a feature | Jun 14 21:31 |
| tacone | it's me. | Jun 14 21:31 |
| tacone | schestowitz: i'm aggregated in that planet | Jun 14 21:31 |
| neighborlee | _Mutex_, while your at it ask them about its first cousin moonlight | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | <anon> yeah, that one's good | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | <anon> http://www.linuxplanet.org/blogs/?cat=1132 <-- this is awful. the 10 commandmends of Mono religion | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | <anon> it's got a good laugh | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | tacone: OK | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | good | Jun 14 21:31 |
| tacone | it's my post. | Jun 14 21:31 |
| schestowitz | It makes Novell nervous | Jun 14 21:31 |
| tacone | i don't want novell to die. i want them to clear up. | Jun 14 21:32 |
| maxstirner | i thought it [mono crusade] was a very funny read | Jun 14 21:32 |
| _Mutex_ | I know there is alot of opposition to it, I myself feel its really counter productive, as a programmer who works alot on windows platform, (like MILLIONS of other), they can now develop CROSS platform apps, | Jun 14 21:32 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, LOL | Jun 14 21:32 |
| _Mutex_ | Perfect, if it wasnt for some ideology spannering the works | Jun 14 21:32 |
| tacone | schestowitz: until they're patent covenant looks like this http://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-license | Jun 14 21:32 |
| DaemonMDV | you always could develop cross platform apps in Java | Jun 14 21:32 |
| DaemonMDV | they'd suck just as bad anywhere you ran them | Jun 14 21:33 |
| DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 14 21:33 |
| _Mutex_ | Ive got mono here on my machine right now, and its looks really nice. | Jun 14 21:33 |
| _Mutex_ | right in jave, you answered your own question, | Jun 14 21:33 |
| _Mutex_ | used java much ? | Jun 14 21:33 |
| DaemonMDV | unfortunately | Jun 14 21:33 |
| _Mutex_ | exactly | Jun 14 21:33 |
| tacone | i'm afraid my post is a little to bashing to shield. i should maybe have just replied to the legal stuff. | Jun 14 21:34 |
| tacone | schestowitz: you think PJ would contribute to the mononono ? | Jun 14 21:34 |
| maxstirner | i hadnt got to the bashing bit yet ;) | Jun 14 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Top Iraqi Sunni Lawmaker Assassinated as He Condemns Maliki http://news.antiwar.com/2009/06/12/top-iraqi-sunni-lawmaker-assassinated-as-he-condemns-maliki/ | Jun 14 21:34 |
| _Mutex_ | no, allready a crazy mess, | Jun 14 21:34 |
| _Mutex_ | no need to drag everyone down with the shi p | Jun 14 21:35 |
| DaemonMDV | "ust because BEA and Sun are gone or going doesn't mean this contest will now stop. IBM, Novell, Red Hat and Google are all major contributors and none has expressed an interest in JavaFX. IBM and Google have, infact, been prime movers and supporters of AJAX. You should expect them to resist moving OpenOffice to JavaFX, a technology that's unproven, owned by Oracle, considered inferior by some experts and that would - as a resu | Jun 14 21:35 |
| DaemonMDV | lt - take OpenOffice right outside of the developer mainstream." | Jun 14 21:35 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/ellison_javafx_commitment/ | Jun 14 21:35 |
| schestowitz | <tacone> schestowitz: you think PJ would contribute to the mononono ? | Jun 14 21:35 |
| schestowitz | PJ? | Jun 14 21:35 |
| schestowitz | In what way? | Jun 14 21:35 |
| neighborlee | tacone, was it anymore bashing than his fud..if so maybe you should revise it ;)),,if not well your prob. safe ;) | Jun 14 21:36 |
| tacone | dunno. opening bugs, maybe. | Jun 14 21:36 |
| schestowitz | monono is related to mononono AFAIK | Jun 14 21:36 |
| schestowitz | T*to Grokla | Jun 14 21:36 |
| schestowitz | Some guy from there. Tim Chase | Jun 14 21:36 |
| tacone | schestowitz: i'd love to see atomic and external referenced contributions to lp:mononono | Jun 14 21:37 |
| tacone | i'll add bugs slowly. but there's much stuff to cover, i fear. | Jun 14 21:37 |
| DaemonMDV | _Mutex_: I usually remove IcedTea (Java) so nothin can load it and crash Firefox | Jun 14 21:37 |
| DaemonMDV | cause that's usually what happens | Jun 14 21:37 |
| tacone | because there are many things wrong in the agreement, i believe. | Jun 14 21:38 |
| _Mutex_ | I tried java for awile and gave it up as a bad joke, potentialy good, poorly executed. | Jun 14 21:39 |
| schestowitz | http://lwn.net/Articles/335812/ "Instead, the Xen developers will be expected to go back and fix a list of problems - a lot of work with an uncertain result at the end." | Jun 14 21:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @inalgnu: YouTube should use Ogg like Dailymotion for HTML 5 open web video http://www.reddit.com/tb/8sgk5 !gnu !linux !fsf (via @dpic) | Jun 14 21:40 | |
| balzac | -_- | Jun 14 21:40 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, I love his ten commandments ..oh ho very funny :) | Jun 14 21:40 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/11/microsoft_novell_recessionary_claims/ | Jun 14 21:41 |
| tacone | nice you like them. | Jun 14 21:41 |
| balzac | The biggest problem with Java is weak licensing | Jun 14 21:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Novell lost more than $200m during a single quarter - it's quarter ended April 30 this year. | Jun 14 21:41 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft didn't amplify this in its statement, it just referred to the 100 new customers who'd "signed" up in the last six months. It's not clear, meanwhile, whether this rate is double the rate of the first two years as a whole or whether this is twice the rate of the first six months of the previous years. | Jun 14 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Can a Noveller develop Mono on a Sabbath? | Jun 14 21:41 |
| balzac | that's also the problem with open solaris | Jun 14 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Or will he go to DLL for that? | Jun 14 21:41 |
| _Mutex_ | it should be under the GPL then it would be safe,,, (oh wait).. | Jun 14 21:41 |
| schestowitz | *DLL (D hell hell) | Jun 14 21:41 |
| balzac | schestowitz: yuck yuck yuck | Jun 14 21:42 |
| schestowitz | The "Mono religion" | Jun 14 21:42 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, bad one, but hey you get one for the day ;) | Jun 14 21:42 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: GPLv3 was what the president and CEO of Sun were discussing for Solaris | Jun 14 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Making one's own up | Jun 14 21:42 |
| balzac | but they went with the CDDL | Jun 14 21:42 |
| balzac | and then Sun tanked and got bought by a database company | Jun 14 21:42 |
| _Mutex_ | Its a damn shame we cant trust the same licene that covers the FLOSS flagship application of the Linux kernel. | Jun 14 21:43 |
| balzac | it just goes to show, be bold, choose the gold standard license, the strongest brand in software - GNU | Jun 14 21:43 |
| balzac | and the gods will smile upon you | Jun 14 21:43 |
| schestowitz | Which ones? | Jun 14 21:43 |
| schestowitz | Church of emacs? | Jun 14 21:43 |
| balzac | Emacs is for superior minds | Jun 14 21:43 |
| balzac | :D | Jun 14 21:43 |
| balzac | cultivated minds choose emacs | Jun 14 21:44 |
| MinceR | emacs is for those with 32 fingers | Jun 14 21:44 |
| MinceR | on their hands | Jun 14 21:44 |
| balzac | I do fine just using my index fingers | Jun 14 21:44 |
| MinceR | those who want the best text editor choose vim. | Jun 14 21:44 |
| schestowitz | Pianists could use the skill | Jun 14 21:44 |
| schestowitz | Requires little in terms of motoric skills | Jun 14 21:45 |
| balzac | actually, you're not suppose to hit those multiple key combos with one hand, and they're sequences mostly | Jun 14 21:45 |
| schestowitz | Centipede -> centifinger | Jun 14 21:45 |
| balzac | if I have to hit two keys at once, I use one finger from each hand, as is recommended to avoid carpel tunnel syndrome | Jun 14 21:45 |
| balzac | there are cases when I press two keys simultaneously with one hand | Jun 14 21:46 |
| schestowitz | board@opensuse:~$ zypper install new-member < http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/boardopensuse-zypper-install-new-member > | Jun 14 21:46 |
| balzac | It was quite an embarrassment for Sun Microsystems to be acquired by that barbarian, larry ellison | Jun 14 21:47 |
| maxstirner | schestowitz: weren't you with suse back in the day roy? | Jun 14 21:47 |
| balzac | if only they'd released Solaris under GPLv3... | Jun 14 21:47 |
| Can a Noveller use any OS but the Blessed Windows or the Taxed Suse Linux? | Jun 14 21:48 | |
| schestowitz | Freeplane pushing for visibility http://www.mind-mapping.org/blog/2009/06/freeplane-pushing-for-visibility/ | Jun 14 21:48 |
| *fewa (n=fewa@174-21-97-134.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 21:48 | |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: yeah.. | Jun 14 21:48 |
| _Hicham_ | maxstirner : schestowitz is still powered by suse | Jun 14 21:48 |
| gasps | Jun 14 21:48 | |
| schestowitz | How did you know? :-o j/k | Jun 14 21:48 |
| schestowitz | Last one I used was 9.3 | Jun 14 21:49 |
| maxstirner | i must have read it on your web page back in the day trying to work out who runs BN i guess? | Jun 14 21:49 |
| _Mutex_ | "IBM to purchase $50 million in Novell convertible preferred shares;" anyone know if IBM still holds those shares, (from 2004) | Jun 14 21:49 |
| maxstirner | no i remember now, we had a conversation about it | Jun 14 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Who runs BN? Surely some Fedora zealot ;-) | Jun 14 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Or MS shill | Jun 14 21:49 |
| balzac | good question, _Mutex_ | Jun 14 21:49 |
| maxstirner | i used 9.3 or whatever back in the day | Jun 14 21:49 |
| schestowitz | It's funny when people call me a MS shill | Jun 14 21:49 |
| maxstirner | guerilla-guerilla marketing | Jun 14 21:50 |
| schestowitz | I guess that's why I criticise MS so much | Jun 14 21:50 |
| maxstirner | confusing hte enemy | Jun 14 21:50 |
| balzac | schestowitz: that's hilarious | Jun 14 21:50 |
| maxstirner | false flag operation! | Jun 14 21:50 |
| schestowitz | It brings them sympathy, eh? | Jun 14 21:50 |
| balzac | schestowitz: on a bad day, maybe... | Jun 14 21:50 |
| balzac | but lately, Novell's trolls have been so bad, they've been causing sympathy for us. | Jun 14 21:50 |
| _Hicham_ | SUSE is a great distro | Jun 14 21:50 |
| _Hicham_ | I never tested openSUSE | Jun 14 21:51 |
| maxstirner | some geek from my student halls isntalled SUSE 9.3 or something along those lines, i didnt know how to work linux at all | Jun 14 21:51 |
| balzac | SUSE is like a little rodent dropping | Jun 14 21:51 |
| maxstirner | it was more difficult back in the day as well | Jun 14 21:51 |
| If you look around, you find trolling at any place that dares doubt M$. | Jun 14 21:51 | |
| maxstirner | i just knew i didnt want MS | Jun 14 21:51 |
| balzac | SUSE is a chameleon terd | Jun 14 21:51 |
| schestowitz | twitter is a MS shill :-) | Jun 14 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Look where he's located | Jun 14 21:52 |
| maxstirner | i never warmed to the rpm logic, didnt get it | Jun 14 21:52 |
| schestowitz | He attacks MS to buy them sympathy | Jun 14 21:52 |
| LOL | Jun 14 21:52 | |
| schestowitz | Google too is an MS shill | Jun 14 21:52 |
| balzac | actually, it's not fair to chameleons, which are probably endangered species for such a crappy company to seize onto this creature for it's street credibility. | Jun 14 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Its goal is to show that not only MS is evil | Jun 14 21:52 |
| schestowitz | And it's working | Jun 14 21:52 |
| balzac | It reminds me of Republicans using the venerable elephant for their logo | Jun 14 21:52 |
| schestowitz | It got antitrust regulators busy with Google | Jun 14 21:52 |
| I'm planted to make M$ look good, by showing how evil and broken they are. | Jun 14 21:52 | |
| maxstirner | diversion of resources! | Jun 14 21:52 |
| maxstirner | second front | Jun 14 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Sergey and Larry will have their payday from BIllG some time | Jun 14 21:53 |
| schestowitz | So will Darl McBride | Jun 14 21:53 |
| _Mutex_ | you do know that all the companies that MS "took over" did so willingly right ?? | Jun 14 21:53 |
| maxstirner | dont think billg can afford that for much longer | Jun 14 21:53 |
| balzac | MinceR has accused me of being a Gates and Ballmer loyalist | Jun 14 21:53 |
| balzac | But no, it's not true | Jun 14 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jun 14 21:53 |
| schestowitz | it's not true? | Jun 14 21:54 |
| schestowitz | Oh. | Jun 14 21:54 |
| balzac | Darl, the Darling of the GNU/Linux fanatics | Jun 14 21:54 |
| The people at M$ would love to blame people like me, Bad Vista, BN, Groklaw and other "extremists" for the failure of Vista. | Jun 14 21:54 | |
| schestowitz | Darl is a Linux advocate | Jun 14 21:54 |
| schestowitz | They sued to give Linux media coverage | Jun 14 21:54 |
| _Mutex_ | sure if vista actually failed :) | Jun 14 21:54 |
| balzac | Darl was secretly trying to make Microsoft look stupid | Jun 14 21:54 |
| it was all an evil plot? | Jun 14 21:55 | |
| balzac | an agent provocateur | Jun 14 21:55 |
| balzac | Poor Bill Gates | Jun 14 21:55 |
| _Mutex_ | rich bill gates | Jun 14 21:55 |
| balzac | He just can't get a break | Jun 14 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Linux installed in the subway > http://linuxshellaccount.blogspot.com/2009/06/goofy-linux-pictures-funny-and.html Pic #2 | Jun 14 21:55 |
| M$ shuffled money under the table to SCO to prove how stupid and evil they were? | Jun 14 21:55 | |
| MinceR | balzac: that's what a gates and ballmer loyalist would say. | Jun 14 21:55 |
| balzac | Even Jerry Seinfeld betrayed him | Jun 14 21:55 |
| balzac | twitter: they were fooled, because SCO double-crossed them. | Jun 14 21:56 |
| sure, the richest man in the US can't get a break. | Jun 14 21:56 | |
| schestowitz | balzac: like Seattle press? | Jun 14 21:56 |
| schestowitz | They do that | Jun 14 21:56 |
| schestowitz | Don't get me started... I sae it earlier today | Jun 14 21:56 |
| schestowitz | Poor B&M foundry... | Jun 14 21:56 |
| balzac | Microsoft thought SCO was going to break GNU/Linux, but instead they made Microsoft look impotent against the power of the GNU GPL. | Jun 14 21:56 |
| schestowitz | Suffering from the recession | Jun 14 21:56 |
| SCO double crossed M$? How by going out of business? | Jun 14 21:56 | |
| schestowitz | [and not paying tax] | Jun 14 21:56 |
| _Mutex_ | why is it here, that all that happens is MS bashing, and little or not constructive talk on how to improve FOSS. Not as fun ?? or too hard ? | Jun 14 21:56 |
| schestowitz | And bribing government | Jun 14 21:56 |
| _Mutex_ | do you get sick of it ? | Jun 14 21:56 |
| schestowitz | And the pharma cartel.. and oil companies, etc. | Jun 14 21:57 |
| Oh, I see. | Jun 14 21:57 | |
| balzac | _Mutex_: we FOSS users are already in software paradice | Jun 14 21:57 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: see the topic of the site | Jun 14 21:57 |
| _Mutex_ | I mean on a scale of evil MS is pansies | Jun 14 21:57 |
| balzac | s/paradice/paradise/ | Jun 14 21:57 |
| balzac | we don't need to worry about improvement, it just happens effortlessly | Jun 14 21:57 |
| balzac | the wind is at our backs, filling our sails | Jun 14 21:57 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: how much "constructive talk" have we seen from you? | Jun 14 21:58 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, it say boycott novell, not bash the crap out of anything connected with proprietary code or MS management. | Jun 14 21:58 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: that's right, not one character. | Jun 14 21:58 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: also, if you don't like the talk that's going on in here, you can piss off. | Jun 14 21:58 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: we're defending our freedom oasis from barbarians who can't stand freedom | Jun 14 21:58 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: pay attention to subjects in posts, Wiki, etc. | Jun 14 21:58 |
| schestowitz | It's a niche thing | Jun 14 21:58 |
| balzac | Perhaps Microsoft should abandon software for a while. just stick to hardware and services. | Jun 14 21:59 |
| _Mutex_ | far more than most ive seen, I spoke in depth earlier about working on foss quality, and quess what, everyone is more interested in Ballmer's latest comment, seems ballmer is more important and occupies your mind more than FOSS or novell | Jun 14 21:59 |
| MinceR | perhaps micro$oft should abandon this universe for a while. | Jun 14 21:59 |
| MinceR | and not return, ever. | Jun 14 21:59 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: ballmer is waging a war on us. | Jun 14 21:59 |
| _Mutex_ | my point exactly | Jun 14 22:00 |
| MinceR | and on the entire IT industry. | Jun 14 22:00 |
| balzac | Give it a rest, come back to the table with some fresh ideas, like letting go of the archaic licensing, the materialistic business models, and the idea of remaining king of the mountain well beyond their prime. | Jun 14 22:00 |
| _Mutex_ | so you say, and ofcourse you guys are angels right ? | Jun 14 22:00 |
| balzac | every old man must fall over one day | Jun 14 22:00 |
| balzac | Microsoft is not different | Jun 14 22:00 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: at least compared to ballmer, and even compared to trolls like you. | Jun 14 22:01 |
| _Mutex_ | thats reteric, and totally counter productive, and not healthy to spend all day every day fantisising about how you like to see ballmer delt with. | Jun 14 22:01 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 14 22:01 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: then stop being counterproductive and leave. | Jun 14 22:01 |
| schestowitz | Bordeaux for Mac OS X systems coming soon http://bordeauxgroup.com/node/150 Are they not just trying to blow Jobs? | Jun 14 22:01 |
| MinceR | if writing it isn't productive then neither can reading it be. | Jun 14 22:01 |
| balzac | Mincer and Trojan9382 should have to have a private chat together. | Jun 14 22:02 |
| schestowitz | Wine focusing on the Apple movement.. | Jun 14 22:02 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: isn't that what they always want to do with him? | Jun 14 22:02 |
| schestowitz | not Wine. | Jun 14 22:02 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: these aren't the wine developers, are they? | Jun 14 22:02 |
| MinceR | i've never heard of them before | Jun 14 22:03 |
| schestowitz | Tom is | Jun 14 22:03 |
| schestowitz | They make a commercial offshoot | Jun 14 22:03 |
| balzac | oh, crap | Jun 14 22:04 |
| balzac | Iran is flipping out | Jun 14 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Where? | Jun 14 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Sounds like the propaganda | Jun 14 22:04 |
| schestowitz | To arouse public sentiment favouring war | Jun 14 22:04 |
| balzac | Ahmadinejad is trying to pull a "Tienamen Square" on Iranian liberals. | Jun 14 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Says who? | Jun 14 22:04 |
| balzac | I'd like to punch Ahmadinejad in the face | Jun 14 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Don't give me elite press source | Jun 14 22:04 |
| balzac | but it wouldn't look good, because it would appear a giant was punching a very small guy | Jun 14 22:05 |
| schestowitz | balzac: that's not a way for peaceful coexistence | Jun 14 22:05 |
| fewa | http://notnews.today.com/2009/06/14/iranian-election-mission-accomplished/ | Jun 14 22:05 |
| balzac | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ | Jun 14 22:05 |
| schestowitz | That's how you end up with Kissingers and cowbody Bushes | Jun 14 22:05 |
| schestowitz | *cowboy | Jun 14 22:05 |
| balzac | no way | Jun 14 22:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KOffice 2009 Sprint In Berlin http://ping.fm/eLHue | Jun 14 22:05 | |
| schestowitz | *cow[ard]boy | Jun 14 22:05 |
| balzac | I'd throw Bush out a window | Jun 14 22:05 |
| balzac | I'd stuff Kissinger into the nearest trash can, head first | Jun 14 22:06 |
| balzac | well, that would make me look terrible, as old as he is | Jun 14 22:06 |
| balzac | what do you do with these guys? | Jun 14 22:06 |
| balzac | ahmadinejad, Tony Blair, Bush, etc | Jun 14 22:07 |
| _Hicham_ | ahmadinajad is better than bush | Jun 14 22:08 |
| _Hicham_ | at least he is popular | Jun 14 22:08 |
| balzac | we'll see if Ahmadinejad ranks with Bush and Blair after this conflict in Iran ends. If there's a big death toll, he's a scum. | Jun 14 22:08 |
| balzac | if he gets through this without killing a bunch of people, I'll hold him in slightly higher regard than Bush and Blair. | Jun 14 22:08 |
| balzac | But his holocaust denial is really pathetic. That's one of his most moronic things. | Jun 14 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Sign of the time: Linux the first operating system to support USB 3.0 < http://www.fiercecio.com/techwatch/story/spotlight-linux-first-operating-system-support-usb-3-0/2009-06-12 > | Jun 14 22:10 |
| balzac | Well, the Iranians can really revolt now, because the hard-liners don't have Bush as their bogeyman | Jun 14 22:10 |
| schestowitz | Re: | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | <balzac> I'd throw Bush out a window | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | <balzac> I'd stuff Kissinger into the nearest trash can, head first | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Not good. | Jun 14 22:11 |
| balzac | sorry | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | You're doing exactly what you advused against | Jun 14 22:11 |
| balzac | well, first floor window | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Ah, OK | Jun 14 22:11 |
| balzac | they're both bona fide war criminals | Jun 14 22:11 |
| balzac | especially Bush | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Not by US law | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Aka Intl' law | Jun 14 22:11 |
| schestowitz | The US doesn't care about the UN | Jun 14 22:12 |
| schestowitz | US >> UN | Jun 14 22:12 |
| balzac | it's kind of like when Meyer Lansky when to a Nazi rally in the US and threw them out the windows | Jun 14 22:12 |
| schestowitz | if (country="USA") | Jun 14 22:12 |
| balzac | part of what gives one the right to throw others out the window is having the moral high-ground | Jun 14 22:12 |
| MinceR | law doesn't determine morality. | Jun 14 22:12 |
| schestowitz | They did this in Russia to some woman journalist | Jun 14 22:12 |
| maxstirner | funny | Jun 14 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Maybe the KGB mafia!H | Jun 14 22:13 |
| MinceR | "it was legal" is no excuse. | Jun 14 22:13 |
| maxstirner | i am just watching dispatches murdering the truth | Jun 14 22:13 |
| maxstirner | 2007 documentary on teh journalist/s they kill/ed | Jun 14 22:13 |
| maxstirner | :D | Jun 14 22:13 |
| balzac | journalists have been killed in Russia | Jun 14 22:13 |
| balzac | Putin is a prick | Jun 14 22:13 |
| schestowitz | maxstirner: which one? | Jun 14 22:13 |
| maxstirner | "Murdering the Truth" | Jun 14 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Yeah. | Jun 14 22:13 |
| maxstirner | or you mena the journalist? | Jun 14 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Bloggers too | Jun 14 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Brought to police custody | Jun 14 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Killed by accident | Jun 14 22:14 |
| schestowitz | rm -rf /home/nina/ | Jun 14 22:14 |
| maxstirner | :D | Jun 14 22:14 |
| schestowitz | :-S | Jun 14 22:14 |
| schestowitz | Well, old joke | Jun 14 22:14 |
| maxstirner | killall -9 | Jun 14 22:14 |
| schestowitz | She was from Russia too | Jun 14 22:14 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq4 | Jun 14 22:14 |
| balzac | Yahoo, Google, Microsoft have all worked with the govt of China to reveal dissident bloggers | Jun 14 22:15 |
| balzac | for once, I was agreeing with actual Republicans when I saw them grilling the executives from these companies | Jun 14 22:15 |
| maxstirner | hehehe geekrap | Jun 14 22:15 |
| balzac | that's ridiculous for me to agree with a Repugnican on anything. | Jun 14 22:15 |
| _Mutex_ | wait until FOSS and MS have to ship spywhere on every machine in china !! | Jun 14 22:16 |
| _Mutex_ | and its PROPRIETARY CODE oooohhh | Jun 14 22:16 |
| schestowitz | The Gralla shill has begun the vapourware campaign for Vista8 | Jun 14 22:17 |
| schestowitz | They know Vista7 will suck when normal people (not bribe) try it | Jun 14 22:17 |
| schestowitz | balzac: they also censor results those top 3 | Jun 14 22:17 |
| balzac | they're talking about Vista8 already? | Jun 14 22:17 |
| schestowitz | They have no problem with suppression | Jun 14 22:17 |
| schestowitz | They are there for money | Jun 14 22:18 |
| schestowitz | balzac: yes, started amonth ago | Jun 14 22:18 |
| schestowitz | And I see it again now | Jun 14 22:18 |
| balzac | well, you've got to be paying attention to your balance | Jun 14 22:18 |
| _Mutex_ | by virtaully all accounts of people using Windows7, they are very happy with it, just as Vista users are ! | Jun 14 22:18 |
| schestowitz | Only the Mcirosoft shills with a blog or journo hat do this | Jun 14 22:18 |
| balzac | Cisco is really giving the totalitarians all tools they need as well | Jun 14 22:18 |
| schestowitz | So did IBM | Jun 14 22:19 |
| schestowitz | In the 1930s | Jun 14 22:19 |
| balzac | indeed | Jun 14 22:19 |
| balzac | precision accounting on International Business Machines | Jun 14 22:19 |
| _Mutex_ | and with the hiliograph machines during the nazi occupation, and yes the NY branch of IBM was involved | Jun 14 22:19 |
| schestowitz | IBM was too busy | Jun 14 22:19 |
| schestowitz | Busy making $$ | Jun 14 22:19 |
| balzac | Bush's grandfather, Prescott sold bomb fuses and other stuff to the Nazis | Jun 14 22:20 |
| balzac | during WWII | Jun 14 22:20 |
| _Mutex_ | probably took the same flight as teh IBM reps :) | Jun 14 22:20 |
| balzac | exactly - the most ruthless industrialists sell anything to anyone, any time. No scruples whatsoever. | Jun 14 22:20 |
| schestowitz | tacone: http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/what-a-good-patent-covenant-looks-like/ | Jun 14 22:21 |
| _Mutex_ | yea, like that shindler guy,, the hide of him | Jun 14 22:21 |
| balzac | Prescott sold military technology, sophisticated bomb fuses used to bombard London. He was busted under the trading with the enemies act. | Jun 14 22:21 |
| balzac | But the Rosenbergs were executed for giving secrets to Russia. | Jun 14 22:21 |
| MinceR | i thought that was a patent license, not a covenant | Jun 14 22:21 |
| balzac | seems like a bit of a double standard there. | Jun 14 22:21 |
| *tacone has quit (Connection timed out) | Jun 14 22:22 | |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.65.207) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 22:22 | |
| balzac | If I were CEO of a tech company, I'd begin in Taiwan. | Jun 14 22:22 |
| balzac | and work my way into mainland china through taiwan. | Jun 14 22:23 |
| schestowitz | balzac: some people would WORK for anyone | Jun 14 22:23 |
| schestowitz | Even criminals | Jun 14 22:23 |
| balzac | yeah, well I'm not one of them. | Jun 14 22:23 |
| schestowitz | As long as it makes it easier for them to live | Jun 14 22:23 |
| schestowitz | Not morally | Jun 14 22:23 |
| _Mutex_ | good plan i mean the chines really love the tiawanese :) | Jun 14 22:23 |
| balzac | Disruptech (soon to be incorporated) will not be indifferent to its clients | Jun 14 22:23 |
| tacone | is any of you robert millan ? | Jun 14 22:23 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: well, I'd start with taiwan, because they don't have simplified Chinese, they have traditional chinese. | Jun 14 22:24 |
| balzac | I'd want my information technology services to be informed by the linguistic heritage of the exiled imperialists. | Jun 14 22:24 |
| balzac | China might as well regress back into feudalism, based on what I've seen of their undemocratic capitalism | Jun 14 22:25 |
| _Mutex_ | sure, but cino/tai relations are frost at best, downright hostile is normal state. china does not even recognise them | Jun 14 22:25 |
| balzac | they were better off under the imperial dynasty | Jun 14 22:25 |
| _Mutex_ | its all mau's fault | Jun 14 22:26 |
| balzac | might as well kick some dirt on the memory of chairman mao | Jun 14 22:26 |
| _Mutex_ | mao thanks for the spelling | Jun 14 22:26 |
| balzac | restore an emperor or emperess | Jun 14 22:26 |
| balzac | ever since 1989, communism in China has been soulless. | Jun 14 22:26 |
| _Mutex_ | just attach some riders on his little red book ,, she'll be right | Jun 14 22:27 |
| _Mutex_ | they are embracing capitolism much more past 10 years or so, and they like it | Jun 14 22:28 |
| balzac | Tienamen Square would have been easy to deal with, if the leadership of China were sane. | Jun 14 22:28 |
| balzac | Just send the military in without weapons. | Jun 14 22:28 |
| GWB is a war criminal by US law because international treaties are binding on US law. | Jun 14 22:28 | |
| _Mutex_ | if the leadership was sane it would never have happened | Jun 14 22:28 |
| balzac | disperse the crowd patiently | Jun 14 22:29 |
| _Mutex_ | thats right twitter | Jun 14 22:29 |
| balzac | GWB is a war criminal | Jun 14 22:29 |
| *ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.114.14.136.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 14 22:29 | |
| _Mutex_ | you know the drill, the present pres will pardon the outgoing loser, and all will be will , just ask nixon | Jun 14 22:30 |
| balzac | Obama must not pardon Bush | Jun 14 22:30 |
| _Mutex_ | I would really hope not, | Jun 14 22:30 |
| ThistleWeb | oooh, we doin' a seance now? | Jun 14 22:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] INQ is dead/dying. Editor left. "Charlie did say there is a story there, but he's not talking yet," I hear. | Jun 14 22:30 | |
| balzac | hehe | Jun 14 22:30 |
| ThistleWeb | there's plenty of dead peeps to interview | Jun 14 22:32 |
| _Mutex_ | I just did a comparison stock price between RH and Novell for the past 5 years, and they are scary close to each other, most of the time there is nothing in it at all. | Jun 14 22:32 |
| *twitter ignores ThistleWeb | Jun 14 22:32 | |
| ThistleWeb | yay | Jun 14 22:32 |
| schestowitz | WOT? | Jun 14 22:32 |
| schestowitz | twitter: ThistleWeb is one of the GoodGuys{Tm} | Jun 14 22:32 |
| is he? | Jun 14 22:33 | |
| schestowitz | Aye | Jun 14 22:33 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: care to share your data as a graph? | Jun 14 22:33 |
| schestowitz | You;ve not been paying attention | Jun 14 22:33 |
| schestowitz | The the issue with not kicking trolls | Jun 14 22:33 |
| ThistleWeb | relax, some people have no sense of humour, I've come to expect this | Jun 14 22:33 |
| schestowitz | Everyone become suspect by default | Jun 14 22:33 |
| _Mutex_ | http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=NOVL#chart5:symbol=novl;range=5y;compare=rht;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined | Jun 14 22:33 |
| _Mutex_ | and yes RH is ahead recently but marginally | Jun 14 22:33 |
| yes, that's what the trolls wold like | Jun 14 22:33 | |
| I'll listen to Thistle for a while, but it was ugly a few nights ago. | Jun 14 22:35 | |
| ThistleWeb | for those who didn't get the joke "just ask Nixon"......he's currently dead, until further notice, I'd guess | Jun 14 22:35 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh, ok well ask his historian :) | Jun 14 22:35 |
| _Mutex_ | it was nixon in watergate scandal ? | Jun 14 22:35 |
| ThistleWeb | twitter, listen to who you like, btw what's it like working slashdot with 15 different accounts? It must get confusing at times | Jun 14 22:36 |
| ThistleWeb | _Mutex_: yes he was | Jun 14 22:36 |
| _Mutex_ | good, (guess). | Jun 14 22:36 |
| schestowitz | It's official. Lessig is a red commie... http://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/05/on_socialism_round_ii.html not. | Jun 14 22:36 |
| ah yes, that's what I remember. | Jun 14 22:36 | |
| _Mutex_ | ahh deep throat, thats a cool code name LOL | Jun 14 22:36 |
| *twitter ignores idiot ThistleWeb again. | Jun 14 22:36 | |
| schestowitz | *sigh* | Jun 14 22:37 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm curious who'd win a "which president brought the US into more disrepute" poll, Nixon or Bush | Jun 14 22:37 |
| balzac | Bush | Jun 14 22:37 |
| _Mutex_ | thats a no brainer, | Jun 14 22:37 |
| _Mutex_ | yep | Jun 14 22:37 |
| I also have Mutex and Deamon on ignore. It keeps my blood pressure down and they have nothing of value to offer. | Jun 14 22:37 | |
| ThistleWeb | I'm guessing Bush, since most peeps would have forgotten what Nixon did | Jun 14 22:37 |
| balzac | Nixon was much more intelligent with a greater sense of society and civility | Jun 14 22:38 |
| _Mutex_ | HI TWITTER, you cant hear me !!! | Jun 14 22:38 |
| schestowitz | [picture] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/week-in-tech-news-playing-with-the-pre-720p-movie-streams-and-more.ars | Jun 14 22:38 |
| balzac | I really like the new CIA Director | Jun 14 22:38 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure my cat is much more intelligent that bush | Jun 14 22:39 |
| balzac | when I heard Leon Panetta was the appointee for CIA Director, I was like wow - great pick. | Jun 14 22:39 |
| MinceR | i suspect cats tend to be more intelligent than people. | Jun 14 22:39 |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon | Jun 14 22:39 |
| balzac | I could almost picture myself becomming a member of the CIA now, under Leon Panetta's leadership. | Jun 14 22:39 |
| schestowitz | "...was the 37th President of the United States (1969–1974) and the only president to resign the office." | Jun 14 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Damn | Jun 14 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Bush should have done that too" | Jun 14 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Resign in 2005 | Jun 14 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Or 2001 | Jun 14 22:40 |
| ThistleWeb | you could connect them and say "hmmm, both Nixon and Bush were Republicans" but then the Republicans have had much more time in office, so they will have more govt scandals than the Democrats by that fact alone | Jun 14 22:40 |
| _Mutex_ | Ahh kink of like the more viruses on windows argument :) | Jun 14 22:41 |
| boot time. Why do people obsess about something that should happen so infrequently? | Jun 14 22:41 | |
| *DaemonMDV has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 14 22:41 | |
| ThistleWeb | any disrepute poll which don't allow presidential blowjobs to count will never be accepted as a real poll by the upstanding members or the foaming-at-the-mouth brigade | Jun 14 22:41 |
| _Mutex_ | and its a real shame that some here are so closed minded that they cant bear to hear anything they may not agree with, but I guess that is their right, sad as it is :) | Jun 14 22:42 |
| schestowitz | http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/news-16979--5-5--.html Cuba places its bets on open-source software | Jun 14 22:42 |
| ThistleWeb | wars, wiretapping, restrictions of rights = all good stuff, blowjob at the office by the secretary = henious crime | Jun 14 22:42 |
| _Mutex_ | nothing compared what JFK got up too, | Jun 14 22:43 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah JFK was a funny one | Jun 14 22:43 |
| I saw a sad thing at Target today. The EEE PC demo had two mock up netbooks. One with Windows and one with Xandros screens stickers. Both price tags underneath said "Windows" | Jun 14 22:43 | |
| _Mutex_ | clinton had nothing on JFK | Jun 14 22:43 |
| ThistleWeb | he got the high regard because he was cut down before he could fuck up big style | Jun 14 22:43 |
| available online but not in stores http://www.target.com/ASUS-8-9-Netbook-Computer-Linux/dp/B001E1J1R2 | Jun 14 22:43 | |
| sad | Jun 14 22:43 | |
| ThistleWeb | if he'd lasted his 4 years his rep in history would have been a lot worse | Jun 14 22:44 |
| balzac | I take it back about punching ahmadinejad. He just looks too much like a hobbit. | Jun 14 22:44 |
| but it is $50 cheaper than the Windows version. | Jun 14 22:44 | |
| _Mutex_ | you all know that clinton thing was a huge beat up by the christian church, but I guess you know that. | Jun 14 22:44 |
| ThistleWeb | _Mutex_: of course it was | Jun 14 22:44 |
| balzac | I have got to think of another response for these awful politicians. | Jun 14 22:44 |
| ThistleWeb | the Republicans are well practiced at creating a shit storm of supposed "all American" scandal to attack an opponant | Jun 14 22:45 |
| balzac | open handed strikes are too demeaning | Jun 14 22:45 |
| balzac | throwing eggs and food is traditional | Jun 14 22:45 |
| gnu/linux looks good at Target. http://www.target.com/Eee-Pc-NetBooks-Electronics/b?ie=UTF8&node=717672011 | Jun 14 22:46 | |
| _Mutex_ | yes I agree, and from the outside it all appears quite amusing and (with bush) sometimes terrifieing | Jun 14 22:46 |
| I wonder what kind of M$ hit team is working on it. | Jun 14 22:46 | |
| ThistleWeb | I wonder is some people cook shoes, that seems to the thing to throw at leaders these days | Jun 14 22:46 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 14 22:46 | |
| balzac | Clinton made some serious mistakes, prior to Lewinsky | Jun 14 22:46 |
| ThistleWeb | every leader / govt makes mistakes | Jun 14 22:46 |
| balzac | if he were less hated before the sex scandal, it might not have been used to bludgeon him so hard | Jun 14 22:47 |
| ThistleWeb | some knowingly make them | Jun 14 22:47 |
| balzac | He screwed up in Waco | Jun 14 22:47 |
| balzac | terribly | Jun 14 22:47 |
| balzac | the former yugoslavia was no picnic either | Jun 14 22:47 |
| _Mutex_ | well the FBI did | Jun 14 22:47 |
| ThistleWeb | some make a decent judgement with what they know at the time which turns out to be a mistake | Jun 14 22:47 |
| _Mutex_ | cowboys | Jun 14 22:47 |
| balzac | well, it's the president's job to keep those things under control | Jun 14 22:47 |
| balzac | he let Janet Reno handle it, which was a big mistake | Jun 14 22:47 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, that is true, | Jun 14 22:48 |
| balzac | she was not qualified | Jun 14 22:48 |
| balzac | If it were me, I would have been much more patient. In fact, the original raid would not have been permitted. | Jun 14 22:48 |
| ThistleWeb | mistakes are forgiveable is they were genuine mistakes, aknowledged with some attempt to undo it | Jun 14 22:48 |
| _Mutex_ | im surprised after a bit of study, and reading about enron, alan greenspam is a bit of a hidden villan as well, | Jun 14 22:48 |
| ThistleWeb | others are policies handed down from corporations and industries | Jun 14 22:48 |
| balzac | I would have had federal agents nab Koresh when he was outside the compound | Jun 14 22:48 |
| ugh, I don't see an gnu/linux eee netbooks with web cams! | Jun 14 22:49 | |
| _Mutex_ | he caused the .com bubble and bust, and he was elected an ENRON Fellow a few weeks before the collapse, but after they were in serious trouble | Jun 14 22:49 |
| balzac | I would have negotiated the surrender of Koresh with no killing in the first place | Jun 14 22:49 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, that was a bad screw up | Jun 14 22:50 |
| balzac | I'd have told him, you've got to go to counselling and accept the fact you're not a messiah. | Jun 14 22:50 |
| ThistleWeb | hindsight is a wonderful thing | Jun 14 22:50 |
| balzac | i wouldn't have raided him. | Jun 14 22:50 |
| ThistleWeb | all you can do is make a judgement call on what you know at the time | Jun 14 22:50 |
| _Mutex_ | it should have just been difused, and troops called of, and a small watch team, on wait | Jun 14 22:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IBM has got the hots for lockin in fog computing: "IBM cloud chief: Private clouds..." < http://ping.fm/UeX92 > | Jun 14 22:50 | |
| balzac | I'd have sent someone in with some psychiatric experience, armed with prozac and xanax | Jun 14 22:50 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, thats right | Jun 14 22:50 |
| balzac | well, the first raid shouldn't have been done | Jun 14 22:51 |
| ThistleWeb | the key to that is to have trusted advisors who will give you the truth as it is, rather than spin it to what they'd like it to be so it fits their agenda and jope you jump in the direction that suits their cause | Jun 14 22:51 |
| balzac | they knew he was armed to the teeth, so they went in rooting and tooting | Jun 14 22:51 |
| _Mutex_ | it was very very amateur hour, and damn close to murder | Jun 14 22:51 |
| balzac | yeah, and also the whole militia scene | Jun 14 22:51 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, | Jun 14 22:51 |
| balzac | I'd have had them so well compromised from the inside, they'd have gotten away with nothing | Jun 14 22:52 |
| ThistleWeb | a huge part of the rpoblem with politics is that advisors have already cherry picked the inteligence to offer, which affect the decisions | Jun 14 22:52 |
| balzac | no Oklahoma City bombing, for example | Jun 14 22:52 |
| balzac | and Reverend Fred Phelps - i'd have his crazy ass scooped up and put on lithium right away | Jun 14 22:53 |
| _Mutex_ | or the iraq poison gas that never appeared, | Jun 14 22:53 |
| Looks like an astroturfer on the target site. Check out these reviews. http://www.target.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews.html/ref=cm_cr_auth?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=1N532BVHEK03S8NTX02R&pf_rd_p=473436471&pf_rd_i=B001E1J1R2&pf_rd_s=bottom-6&pf_rd_m=A1VC38T7YXB528&pf_rd_t=201&customerID=A2QL7X5H8UFHRG | Jun 14 22:53 | |
| _Mutex_ | or the baby milk factories, | Jun 14 22:53 |
| balzac | I don't remember the context of those | Jun 14 22:54 |
| basically, this "experienced eee pc user" harps on bullshit problems. | Jun 14 22:55 | |
| ThistleWeb | Felps rings a bell, is he one of the peeps picketing funerals with signs like "AIDS is God punishment for accepting queers" | Jun 14 22:55 |
| and created problems. | Jun 14 22:55 | |
| balzac | yeah | Jun 14 22:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_goblin showed up in my favourite site: http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/37343 | Jun 14 22:55 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: yes, Microsoft ha some | Jun 14 22:56 |
| schestowitz | I don't know which sites though | Jun 14 22:56 |
| balzac | Fred Phelps should simply be taken into state custody and given free health care | Jun 14 22:56 |
| I noticed that none of the gnu/linux eee pcs came with a webcam now. the troll user jumps all over that. | Jun 14 22:56 | |
| balzac | "Give him an enemah!" | Jun 14 22:56 |
| schestowitz | Mercy, balzac | Jun 14 22:56 |
| balzac | remember the Mel Brooks movie - the doctor proscribed that for everyone. | Jun 14 22:56 |
| schestowitz | A wedgie would do | Jun 14 22:56 |
| balzac | lol | Jun 14 22:57 |
| schestowitz | You don't need to stick pipes in their arse | Jun 14 22:57 |
| balzac | no kidding | Jun 14 22:57 |
| the troll user also claims, " it runs off SD cards instead, making it more likely to crash, and giving you very little memory. The internet also takes awhile to connect to. " and " it has trouble opening documents from Mac and Desktops with XP. FOR WEBCAMS - it is IMPOSSIBLE to find an external webcam that is "plug and play" for linux, since this one comes without it build in. " | Jun 14 22:57 | |
| balzac | but it was a hilarious movie | Jun 14 22:57 |
| balzac | no, but Phelps is entitled to some drugs to stabilize his brain | Jun 14 22:57 |
| schestowitz | twitter: Turfing like this is illegal in the EU | Jun 14 22:58 |
| schestowitz | If you find a smoking gun, that would be something | Jun 14 22:58 |
| schestowitz | Basically, the James testimony is evidence of tcrime | Jun 14 22:58 |
| schestowitz | And thus it was used in court too | Jun 14 22:58 |
| ThistleWeb | what would the world be like if it was against the law to knowingly lie to the press | Jun 14 22:58 |
| smoking guns can only be found by the people running the site, the rest of us can only notice the patterns | Jun 14 22:59 | |
| ThistleWeb | I'm thinking ronaldo's move from man united to real madrid, both clubs appeared to have reached a deal last yr, and decided that 1 more year and he was free to go, nobody talks | Jun 14 22:59 |
| ThistleWeb | then on and off, calderon admited the deal, ferguson kept denying it | Jun 14 23:00 |
| ThistleWeb | both are public companies with shareholders | Jun 14 23:00 |
| ThistleWeb | both had opposite views | Jun 14 23:00 |
| balzac | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0xDVfKAWD4 <--- schestowitz: watch this | Jun 14 23:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz lol...Will we get an answer? Heres to hoping! | Jun 14 23:00 | |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 14 23:00 | |
| ThistleWeb | so one wa slying | Jun 14 23:00 |
| ThistleWeb | companies and politicians lie all the time to the press | Jun 14 23:01 |
| ThistleWeb | not just mislead | Jun 14 23:01 |
| schestowitz | Misuse of the word "kill" to hype things us. "How Overhyping Killed KDE 4" http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1812910/how_overhyping_killed_kde_4.html?cat=15 | Jun 14 23:01 |
| ThistleWeb | politicians skirt that fine line by wording things in parliment so they can appear to say one thing, while not actually lying | Jun 14 23:01 |
| ThistleWeb | because they know lying in parliment can lose them their jobs | Jun 14 23:02 |
| *Aondo has quit (Connection timed out) | Jun 14 23:03 | |
| KDE 4 is dead? That's news to me. | Jun 14 23:04 | |
| schestowitz | balzac: /me watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK2Amr_V1Fg | Jun 14 23:04 |
| ThistleWeb | KDE 4 is spending a year dead for tax reasons | Jun 14 23:04 |
| schestowitz | Listening rather | Jun 14 23:04 |
| schestowitz | twitter: just sensationalism | Jun 14 23:05 |
| balzac | schestowitz: wtf? | Jun 14 23:05 |
| schestowitz | That's why I raised it | Jun 14 23:05 |
| balzac | hilarious | Jun 14 23:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Good extensive review of Fedora 11: http://ping.fm/HRROT | Jun 14 23:05 | |
| ThistleWeb | a lot of peeps misunderstood the concept of KDE 4, which didn't help | Jun 14 23:06 |
| I did not think it was any more "dead" than the 3.5 branch I'm using now. | Jun 14 23:06 | |
| balzac | schestowitz: those euro chicks need to put on a few pounds, I think | Jun 14 23:06 |
| schestowitz | http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/06/13/im-fed-with-mono/ | Jun 14 23:06 |
| schestowitz | grrr... | Jun 14 23:06 |
| balzac | heheh | Jun 14 23:07 |
| balzac | yeah, If I saw that girl in a strip club, I'd give her a fiver and say "hey, do me a favor and buy yourself a sandwich" | Jun 14 23:07 |
| ThistleWeb | balzac: or "I got some protein for ya right here" | Jun 14 23:08 |
| balzac | ThistleWeb: recycle it. | Jun 14 23:09 |
| schestowitz | There was a TV last night.. | Jun 14 23:09 |
| schestowitz | Something about model protetss | Jun 14 23:09 |
| schestowitz | How they get thinner | Jun 14 23:09 |
| balzac | in other words - take some yoga classes, and like the man from nantucket - syfph! | Jun 14 23:10 |
| schestowitz | And the 'norm' for magazines like Vogue only encourage this | Jun 14 23:10 |
| ThistleWeb | size zero | Jun 14 23:10 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE4 is ripe for PCLOS adoption: http://ping.fm/vD6NW (KDE 4 packages for PCLinuxOS Scheduled) | Jun 14 23:10 | |
| ThistleWeb | not to be confused with Sub Zero, although both are popular with the same audience | Jun 14 23:11 |
| schestowitz | Mandriva 2009 Spring! http://rohitsz.blogspot.com/2009/06/mandriva-2009-spring.html :-/ | Jun 14 23:11 |
| balzac | yeah, I saw a picture of a model who was so skeletal, I was quite amazed they'd send her out half nude and starved. | Jun 14 23:12 |
| schestowitz | balzac: here's a FOSS gal for ya. Save Your Amazing Ideas With Basket < http://thedailyubuntu.blogspot.com/2009/06/save-your-amazing-ideas-with-basket.html > | Jun 14 23:13 |
| schestowitz | balzac: looking morbid is in fashion now | Jun 14 23:13 |
| balzac | fashion week here in NYC, I saw some of the girls walking around in the streets. They were young, tall, elegant, and their thighs were so thin, they looked like they couldn't carry a gallon of water. | Jun 14 23:13 |
| schestowitz | Before you know it, model agencies will be touring Sudan for young talent | Jun 14 23:13 |
| balzac | sheesh | Jun 14 23:13 |
| maxstirner | there is obesity however ;) lets not throw the baby out with the water etc | Jun 14 23:13 |
| schestowitz | Somewhere in the middle is right | Jun 14 23:14 |
| maxstirner | probably | Jun 14 23:14 |
| maxstirner | moderation school | Jun 14 23:14 |
| maxstirner | ;) | Jun 14 23:14 |
| schestowitz | There's peer pressure | Jun 14 23:14 |
| schestowitz | And bulimia | Jun 14 23:14 |
| I used html for my last set of notes. I'm not sure what a note taking program is good for. | Jun 14 23:14 | |
| schestowitz | Wasn't karen Carpenter killed this way? | Jun 14 23:15 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee is a fan too | Jun 14 23:15 |
| ThistleWeb | schestowitz: yep | Jun 14 23:15 |
| maxstirner | and advertising and sugar & fat diet courtesy of the US cuisine and obesity | Jun 14 23:15 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 14 23:15 |
| schestowitz | That too | Jun 14 23:15 |
| maxstirner | ying & yang :D | Jun 14 23:15 |
| Paper worked well for me too. I'd take a picture of those notes and put it into my html. | Jun 14 23:15 | |
| schestowitz | 25% carbs | Jun 14 23:15 |
| schestowitz | Lessig has a good talk about it | Jun 14 23:15 |
| schestowitz | A story of corruption | Jun 14 23:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu: No Demand or No Availability? < http://ping.fm/u9sIC > | Jun 14 23:15 | |
| ThistleWeb | not sure what eating disorder she had, but she was depressed for a long time before it took her | Jun 14 23:15 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 14 23:15 | |
| schestowitz | it's all here: http://lessig.org/blog/2008/07/netroots_nation_keynote.html | Jun 14 23:16 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: just comes to show that being a celebrity does not mean happiness | Jun 14 23:16 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, heads up o_0- | Jun 14 23:16 |
| schestowitz | Another case ofg point: Michael Jackson | Jun 14 23:16 |
| neighborlee | oh...-- | Jun 14 23:16 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, yes I am...huge fan. | Jun 14 23:16 |
| schestowitz | Probably abused as a child by his dad | Jun 14 23:16 |
| schestowitz | But also happier and less deviant | Jun 14 23:16 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, anorexia yes.. | Jun 14 23:17 |
| ThistleWeb | performers are professional at putting on the act for the audience, regardless of whats happening in their lives | Jun 14 23:17 |
| maxstirner | theres a great broomfield documentary | Jun 14 23:17 |
| maxstirner | about jackson and his father | Jun 14 23:17 |
| ThistleWeb | show must go on | Jun 14 23:17 |
| maxstirner | or was it louis theroux? | Jun 14 23:17 |
| maxstirner | always confuse the two | Jun 14 23:17 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyjmfDlp9yI (when he was less peculiar) | Jun 14 23:17 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, she..was very very thin..got help..gained weight..was too much stress on heart..died in her room at parents house at night,,day before her and her mom were to go shopping | Jun 14 23:17 |
| *_Mutex_ has quit ("I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!") | Jun 14 23:17 | |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: well, some take drugs | Jun 14 23:17 |
| ThistleWeb | the mask slips off after the show and they're back dealing with their demons | Jun 14 23:17 |
| schestowitz | Beatles... | Jun 14 23:17 |
| maxstirner | see, the obesity killed her :D | Jun 14 23:18 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: very sad. | Jun 14 23:18 |
| neighborlee | maxstirner, no | Jun 14 23:18 |
| schestowitz | We still have the legacy of songs | Jun 14 23:18 |
| maxstirner | sorry that was a bit over the top.. | Jun 14 23:18 |
| balzac | yeah, and they're macabre | Jun 14 23:18 |
| neighborlee | maxstirner, combo of things... | Jun 14 23:19 |
| balzac | Check it out, Leon Panetta is the man | Jun 14 23:19 |
| balzac | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/14/leon-panetta-cheney-almos_n_215339.html | Jun 14 23:19 |
| balzac | Your request is being processed... | Jun 14 23:19 |
| balzac | Leon Panetta: Cheney Almost "Wishing That This Country Would Be Attacked Again" | Jun 14 23:19 |
| neighborlee | maxstirner, no biggie..obesity isn't anything we want to glorify anyway | Jun 14 23:20 |
| balzac | now that's my kind of CIA Director | Jun 14 23:20 |
| balzac | I didn't expect to feel this good about the CIA after all these years | Jun 14 23:20 |
| maxstirner | thats great, that phrase will keep all the 911 conspiracy types in employment as well | Jun 14 23:21 |
| balzac | oh come on | Jun 14 23:21 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, the michael jackson thing is sad , im n ot sure what to make of all of it..I do know his voice, some of his work is breaktaking | Jun 14 23:21 |
| balzac | like Cheney and Bush aren't wishing for an attack... | Jun 14 23:21 |
| balzac | like they even tried to stop the first one. | Jun 14 23:21 |
| maxstirner | not now of course ;) | Jun 14 23:21 |
| balzac | come on! | Jun 14 23:21 |
| bbl | Jun 14 23:21 | |
| balzac | you can bet your bottom dollar they're wishing for an attack. | Jun 14 23:21 |
| balzac | to keep them out of jail. | Jun 14 23:22 |
| *twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 14 23:22 | |
| schestowitz | Dick's life is short anyway | Jun 14 23:22 |
| schestowitz | And Bush probably looks forward to talking to his imaginary friend face to face | Jun 14 23:22 |
| balzac | yeah, so they better expedite his indictment before the opportunity is lost | Jun 14 23:22 |
| ThistleWeb | artists like Micahel Jackson and Prince are bankrupt, the difference between them and the rest of us, is that they have the earning potential to do one good album / tour and make billions for lots of people | Jun 14 23:23 |
| balzac | It's ironic, but no matter what prince does, MJ could still come out like the phantom of the opera in drag, start dancing like a pedo-zombie from hell and still up-stage prince. | Jun 14 23:25 |
| ThistleWeb | though Jackson is pissing his fortune away, Prince just records en-masse, with full on productions........then shoves them in the vault where nobody will ever hear or see them | Jun 14 23:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 15 Mythical and Humorous Facts About Richard Stallman http://ping.fm/urB5L | Jun 14 23:25 | |
| balzac | no matter how decrepit, bizarre, and scary Michael Jackson gets, he'll still have rank over prince. | Jun 14 23:25 |
| balzac | But I can't really deal with either one of them. | Jun 14 23:26 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: a lot of people who make music never get to share it | Jun 14 23:26 |
| schestowitz | They haven't the ability or capacity | Jun 14 23:26 |
| balzac | I don't want to hear "when the doves cry" or any of Michael Jackson's hits. | Jun 14 23:26 |
| schestowitz | But they wish they could | Jun 14 23:26 |
| trmanco | lol | Jun 14 23:26 |
| *schestowitz proceeds to posting some daily BN links | Jun 14 23:27 | |
| trmanco | gnote using 960 KB of ram | Jun 14 23:27 |
| ThistleWeb | balzac: not sure on that one, both have very bizarre lifestyles, Prince is a genius in many fields, MJ can sing and dance, that's about it | Jun 14 23:27 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: you have 1MB, eh? | Jun 14 23:27 |
| schestowitz | Beyond that it's cache | Jun 14 23:27 |
| schestowitz | Swap | Jun 14 23:27 |
| balzac | I don't have either one in my playlist | Jun 14 23:27 |
| schestowitz | BillG: 640kb should be enough [for gnote] | Jun 14 23:27 |
| trmanco | yeah, it might be on swap | Jun 14 23:27 |
| balzac | It's a time machine back to the 80s. I'm doing fine here in 2009 | Jun 14 23:27 |
| neighborlee | I dont know how many saw it..but michael and his friend co-star D. Ross, were amazing in 'The Wiz...been ages but I really loved it...god can judge him on that day I dont need to | Jun 14 23:27 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: yes, you can still find it on YT | Jun 14 23:28 |
| neighborlee | ahhh | Jun 14 23:28 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf4P6rGMxWs | Jun 14 23:28 |
| trmanco | http://i44.tinypic.com/16anp8k.jpg | Jun 14 23:28 |
| trmanco | there ya go | Jun 14 23:28 |
| ThistleWeb | it's gonna be interesting to see if Prince's vault is opened after he dies | Jun 14 23:28 |
| maxstirner | aha :D 25 Mythical and Humorous Facts About Linus Torvalds | Jun 14 23:28 |
| maxstirner | 6. Linus Torvalds doesn't worry about Micro$oft patent crap, he simply does "sudo mv /tmp/ms /dev/null". | Jun 14 23:28 |
| schestowitz | Home http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KujrDlMA2w | Jun 14 23:28 |
| ThistleWeb | if it is, he's gonna be the only artist who's more prolific in death than in life | Jun 14 23:29 |
| trmanco | I woke it up and it's now at 1.3 MB | Jun 14 23:29 |
| schestowitz | Looks like she's crying | Jun 14 23:30 |
| schestowitz | Maybe aches in life..... | Jun 14 23:30 |
| balzac | who? | Jun 14 23:30 |
| maxstirner | didnt she drive out the first singer of the supremes in a really nasty fashion? :D some ex-flatmate used to go on and on about this | Jun 14 23:30 |
| schestowitz | balzac: George Bundy | Jun 14 23:31 |
| *neonfloss has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 14 23:31 | |
| schestowitz | The art of war... ;-) | Jun 14 23:31 |
| balzac | schestowitz: what do you think of freeplane? | Jun 14 23:31 |
| balzac | I kind of like freemind | Jun 14 23:32 |
| balzac | but I think I want to break away from the hierarchical limitation | Jun 14 23:32 |
| balzac | I have an idea of using Drupal and maybe SVG to plot the relationships | Jun 14 23:32 |
| balzac | multi-references between nodes | Jun 14 23:33 |
| maxstirner | whats the difference btw freemind and freeplane? | Jun 14 23:33 |
| balzac | not sure. freeplane is based on freemind | Jun 14 23:33 |
| balzac | i'm investigating freeplane. I'm familiar with freemind. | Jun 14 23:33 |
| maxstirner | "fork due to leadership differences" or something? | Jun 14 23:34 |
| balzac | I think it's more of a smaller project than that | Jun 14 23:34 |
| balzac | seems too small to involve leadership issues | Jun 14 23:34 |
| maxstirner | i meant the fork | Jun 14 23:35 |
| schestowitz | balzac: I never played it | Jun 14 23:35 |
| schestowitz | But it bears potential | Jun 14 23:35 |
| schestowitz | Good free engines and models out there to remix | Jun 14 23:35 |
| *neighborlee has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 14 23:48 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] An EHR for cancer patients runs GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/BUOzE | Jun 14 23:55 | |
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