IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 15th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Xenon GNU/Linux Distribution Emerges http://ping.fm/2szEx		Jun 15 00:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Desktop Coverages with More Miniature Computing http://ping.fm/VINyz		Jun 15 00:05
balzac	this is hilarious	Jun 15 00:16
balzac	http://www.huffingtonpost.com/users/profile/smchp	Jun 15 00:16
balzac	check out this GOP logo	Jun 15 00:16
maxstirner	nice	Jun 15 00:17
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "So to conclude, I’m delighted to say - no, the [Free software] community is NOT hype!" http://ping.fm/h7oks		Jun 15 00:20
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schestowitz	LOL	Jun 15 00:21
balzac	http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/12/bush-gives-shout-out-to-t_n_214676.html?show_comment_id=25652402#comment_25652402	Jun 15 00:22
balzac	Colbert has gone soft on the Bush family	Jun 15 00:23
balzac	hurl	Jun 15 00:23
balzac	What is it about the Bush family? They annihilate large numbers of people, and then they hob-knob with celebrities who make them appear as if they're not monsters.	Jun 15 00:24
balzac	They have a way of compromising people, I suppose.	Jun 15 00:24
balzac	What is this, forgive Bush day or something? Did Obama just make a new national holiday? Forgive Bush day?	Jun 15 00:25
balzac	What would it take to remain unforgiven?	Jun 15 00:25
balzac	I guess you'd have to lose your financial position, then everyone would hate you like Bernie Madoff.	Jun 15 00:26
balzac	But you can annihilate hundreds of thousands of people, and you'll still be treated like a member of society if you keep your bank account filled with the screams of the dead.	Jun 15 00:27
schestowitz	Yes.	Jun 15 00:27
schestowitz	That's how it works	Jun 15 00:27
schestowitz	Other criminals too	Jun 15 00:27
schestowitz	Like the guy who blew planes in Cuba	Jun 15 00:27
schestowitz	Lives happily in Florida	Jun 15 00:27
schestowitz	And the guy who committed crimes and stole from people	Jun 15 00:28
schestowitz	Not characterise as philantropist	Jun 15 00:28
schestowitz	Rather than a criminal	Jun 15 00:28
splosion	http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220090150203%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20090150203&RS=DN/20090150203	Jun 15 00:30
balzac	http://digg.com/d1tnLq	Jun 15 00:35
balzac	this ping pong match can't be real...	Jun 15 00:36
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splosion	balzac: holy shit. That's amazing	Jun 15 00:37
balzac	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dcmDscwEcI <-- perhaps not as amazing as this one.	Jun 15 00:39
fewa	ie http://notnews.today.com/2009/06/14/iranian-election-mission-accomplished/	Jun 15 00:40
fewa	balzac, that one is classic	Jun 15 00:42
balzac	Man, I was dying	Jun 15 00:42
balzac	I LOLed for real	Jun 15 00:42
splosion	Hahaha	Jun 15 00:43
balzac	http://digg.com/tech_news/Can_I_Download_the_Internet <--- first comment in this post is hilarious	Jun 15 00:43
splosion	http://271patent.blogspot.com/2009/06/congress-introduces-ip-protections-for.html Holy shit. Has anyone seen this?	Jun 15 00:50
splosion	Lat night the House voted overwhelmingly to establish new U.S. policy that will oppose any global climate change treaty that weakens the IP rights of American "green technology."	Jun 15 00:50
fewa	http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2410	Jun 15 00:51
fewa	http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2009-328	Jun 15 00:52
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fewa	damn	Jun 15 00:53
balzac	ugh, I ran headlong into a broken Flash advertisement for Microsoft on FSDaily.com	Jun 15 00:54
splosion	Saving the world is not as important as intellectual propertyrights. Stroke of genius	Jun 15 00:55
balzac	I thought congress' job was to destroy the nation and the world simultaneously	Jun 15 00:58
balzac	Isn't that the one greater purpose which all their legislation is intended to accomplish?	Jun 15 00:58
fewa	most of those "green rights" are held by oil companies	Jun 15 00:59
fewa	bought up in order to prevent progress that would threaten their hegemonies	Jun 15 00:59
splosion	I don't keep up to date with the business from the US Congress. But the answer is yes if that decision is anything to go by	Jun 15 00:59
fewa	because of the broken part of the patent system called injunction against use	Jun 15 01:00
fewa	see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A	Jun 15 01:01
splosion	That's significant. Most countries in the world depend on oil companies. This will mean they can't just tell those companies "Go fuck yourselves" when they come a-knocking for their IP Rights.	Jun 15 01:02
fewa	they can say that patents dont work that way	Jun 15 01:02
fewa	or that there is no reason for a patent system	Jun 15 01:02
fewa	calling it a right to take away the freedoms of others is quite a streach	Jun 15 01:03
splosion	mm	Jun 15 01:04
fewa	thats quite a hard line, but the video quoted gives a good overview of some of the issues and problems with the system	Jun 15 01:04
*splosion looks		Jun 15 01:05
balzac	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUY8HysBzsE <--- classic	Jun 15 01:07
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balzac	http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/11/sarah-palin-today-show-in_n_214587.html <--- hilarious	Jun 15 01:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Kill Bill's Browser: Get Firefox, Dump Internet Explorer: http://digg.com/d1toxq?t		Jun 15 02:00
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splosion	thanks for the video link, fewa, btw	Jun 15 02:42
fewa	yes it is a good video	Jun 15 02:42
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oiaohm	fewa I missed the video link.	Jun 15 02:51
fewa	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A	Jun 15 02:51
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mib_frtdjf	Hey Roy	Jun 15 04:14
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twitter	google fud http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/14/2040209/Does-Bing-Have-Google-Running-Scared	Jun 15 04:21
twitter	what could be more frightening than a search engine that reproduces wiki pages? run, hide!	Jun 15 04:22
splosion	I have mod points. woot!	Jun 15 04:22
splosion	so google are analysing a possible competitor. Not much of a story imo	Jun 15 04:23
twitter	Cool, David Gerard was Slashdotted today.	Jun 15 04:26
twitter	http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/14/1649237/YouTube-HTML5-and-Comparing-H264-With-Theora	Jun 15 04:26
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twitter	Good grief, Gerard has been busy with Slashdot. http://slashdot.org/~David+Gerard	Jun 15 04:40
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twitter	Because Vista is officially dead, I did not think I'd be updating the Vista Failure Log again. Windows Media Center's failure to notice the well advertised DTV transition deserved special mention. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855	Jun 15 05:10
twitter	wow, DVD writing at 22 MB/s is impressive. k3b on Lenny rocks.	Jun 15 05:28
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twitter1	:)	Jun 15 05:58
twitter1	not that again. :-(	Jun 15 05:58
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twitter	that's better	Jun 15 05:59
splosion	funny write-up of the IE food-giveaway http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/14/microsoft-has-found-the-cheapest-meals-in-america-or-is-just-cheap/	Jun 15 06:05
fewa	wow i wish i could buy a meal for 14c	Jun 15 06:10
splosion	well I suppose if you buy in bulk the prices will eventually drop to something similar	Jun 15 06:11
fewa	no way	Jun 15 06:12
fewa	you cant buy 700 calories and deliver them for 14c	Jun 15 06:12
splosion	I'd rather the million dollars was just given to a charity anyway and tied in to some shady promotion	Jun 15 06:12
splosion	you'd think.	Jun 15 06:14
splosion	But according to this place http://feedingamerica.org/faces-of-hunger/hunger-map.aspx they can provide 700 meals for 100 bucks. That puts it at about 14c	Jun 15 06:14
fewa	maybe if those calories are already being subsidized by the US government	Jun 15 06:14
splosion	aye	Jun 15 06:14
twitter	Try rice	Jun 15 06:15
fewa	or corn	Jun 15 06:15
splosion	still, it's a rather cynical promotion really	Jun 15 06:15
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twitter	sudden outbreak of common sense on the horizon? http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/lawyers-plan-class-action-to-reclaim-100m-riaa-stole.ars	Jun 15 06:43
twitter	The RIAA defense of "we lost money on this" is not very convincing, considering their major cost is their own salaries.	Jun 15 06:44
splosion	I heard about that. Sounds ambitious	Jun 15 06:45
twitter	Their lawyers cut all sorts of corners as Ray Beckman has documented over the years. http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/	Jun 15 06:45
twitter	Far bigger and worse offenses than blatantly ignoring Federal registrar rules.	Jun 15 06:46
twitter	Offenses like corralling multiple cases into one or two show trials in friendly courts. Bogus investigative methods and sloppy records keeping, on top of demanding unconstitutional spy powers.	Jun 15 06:48
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twitter	http://www.eff.org/riaa-v-people has it really been 6 years since they started suing people?	Jun 15 06:49
splosion	there could be a bit of a balls-up for everybody if the case goes against them, though	Jun 15 06:49
twitter	A not very well informed article on H1B practices in the tech article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8086392.stm	Jun 15 07:12
twitter	Could it be that M$ is going to dump their H1B people and hire them back as contractors?	Jun 15 07:12
twitter	MSBBC is not to be trusted on this issue.	Jun 15 07:13
splosion	I have a C1/D US Visa. what fun	Jun 15 07:15
kentma	mornin'	Jun 15 07:20
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mib_fchixg	so yeah i hate microsoft	Jun 15 08:33
mib_fchixg	just had to get that off my chest	Jun 15 08:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Signs of Mono Unrest, Legal Issues < http://ping.fm/iZpJY >		Jun 15 08:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How Microsoft Got Rid of Judge Jackson After He Had Called Microsoft “Criminals” < http://ping.fm/UZtzG >		Jun 15 09:05
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mib_qjw52z	saşl	Jun 15 09:27
mib_qjw52z	şlşl	Jun 15 09:27
mib_qjw52z	lşl	Jun 15 09:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Wants to Charge $50 Per GNU/Linux Desktop < http://ping.fm/bz88P >		Jun 15 09:30
schestowitz	"FYI, Charlie was at the show in Taiwan where ASUS showed the ARM based Netbook, and here's his take on the situation: http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/06/12/ms-steps-snapdragon/ (MS steps on a Snapdragon)"	Jun 15 09:34
schestowitz	"And here's a picture and video of it: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/ ("Eee PC spotted running Android + Qualcomm 1GHz CPU ) I hadn't watched the video when I sent you the link, man, it is scary. Intel and Microsoft have to be shaking in their boots."	Jun 15 09:34
schestowitz	from a reader who wrote in..	Jun 15 09:34
fewa	the lion is starting it offensive	Jun 15 09:42
schestowitz	Yes, red lion	Jun 15 09:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Accused of Smearing the Competition in Consoles, Amid Trouble < http://ping.fm/YjMeo >		Jun 15 10:05
oiaohm	Really I expected snapdragon to disappear for a bit.	Jun 15 10:06
oiaohm	you have nvidia arm based chip as well entering the market.	Jun 15 10:07
fewa	nvidia ARM?	Jun 15 10:15
kentma	lots of companies do ARM processsors.	Jun 15 10:16
kentma	TI, Intel...	Jun 15 10:16
MinceR	Qualcomm	Jun 15 10:17
kentma	Nvidia :-)	Jun 15 10:17
MinceR	:)	Jun 15 10:18
kentma	There were some rumours of Apple doing an ARM chip	Jun 15 10:18
MinceR	lol	Jun 15 10:19
fewa	but they dont really have much to do with it	Jun 15 10:19
MinceR	they don't do anything on their own	Jun 15 10:19
MinceR	except marketing and crap GUIs	Jun 15 10:19
kentma	It's interesting to consider that ARM grew from Acorn, and Acorn were mainly hugely successful due to the BBC Micro	Jun 15 10:19
fewa	they buy the IP from Marvell/Freescale, then change a few things, then contract out its production to taiwan	Jun 15 10:19
MinceR	ic	Jun 15 10:19
kentma	Thus, the UK TV licence fee payer can be thanked for ARM :-)	Jun 15 10:19
fewa	NVidia actually designs chips	Jun 15 10:20
fewa	but not ARM ones	Jun 15 10:20
fewa	AFAIK	Jun 15 10:20
kentma	there has been talk of an ARM Nvidia chip	Jun 15 10:20
kentma	ARM reckon to have over 200 licensees	Jun 15 10:21
kentma	and in 2006, there were, apparently, 2.45 US bn chips shipped.	Jun 15 10:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Anti-Google Whisper Campaign < http://ping.fm/FGMiT >		Jun 15 10:50
oiaohm	fewa Nvidia is doing a chip particularly for the lower end of the market combined Nvidia gpu + arm processor.	Jun 15 11:25
fewa	must be video uses	Jun 15 11:26
fewa	like 1080p	Jun 15 11:26
oiaohm	Targeted at netbook class machines.	Jun 15 11:26
oiaohm	Nvidia has wanted into the CPU game for a while. Cannot get x86 licence so a chance to get in market another way they will take it.	Jun 15 11:27
kentma	consider that Intel already have an opengl video chipset with oss driver.	Jun 15 11:27
kentma	the concern I have is that we still don't have a 3d nvidia oss driver.	Jun 15 11:28
oiaohm	Nvidia is the last hold out with specs.	Jun 15 11:28
kentma	I do wonder why they hold out. The high-end GPU game is dead and buried now.	Jun 15 11:29
oiaohm	Its not dead and buried.	Jun 15 11:29
kentma	Desktop is dead (sorry everyone, but...), so it's time to look at ultra-low-power and so on.	Jun 15 11:29
oiaohm	Movie rendering.	Jun 15 11:29
kentma	oiaohm: look at the sales figures. Nobody is buying.	Jun 15 11:29
oiaohm	They are still buying.	Jun 15 11:30
kentma	oiaohm: that's very specialist, tiny numbers - it's not mass market.	Jun 15 11:30
oiaohm	Specialist true.	Jun 15 11:30
oiaohm	They are about the only ones who buy quad card systems+	Jun 15 11:30
oiaohm	Stuff that is like 30 thousand per machine.	Jun 15 11:31
kentma	what's dead is the desktop market, and the high-end desktop market which went with it, at least as a "mass market" product. Most people are using gaming consoles at home (again), and the few niches around, like video rendering, are, well, niche.	Jun 15 11:31
oiaohm	Very profitiable niche	Jun 15 11:31
oiaohm	That burns through card.	Jun 15 11:31
oiaohm	cards.	Jun 15 11:31
MinceR	why can't nvidia get an x86 licence?	Jun 15 11:32
MinceR	doesn't intel have to sell those to everyone?	Jun 15 11:32
oiaohm	Intel is not the only licence you need to get.	Jun 15 11:32
MinceR	as for the high-end gpu game, games are still alive.	Jun 15 11:32
MinceR	oiaohm: what else?	Jun 15 11:32
oiaohm	intel amd and via all have patents over x86.	Jun 15 11:33
fewa	not profitable from me :P	Jun 15 11:33
MinceR	also, there are professional gpus too, like the nvidia quadro series	Jun 15 11:33
oiaohm	also so does sun.	Jun 15 11:33
MinceR	oiaohm: but they'd all have to license them, wouldn't they?	Jun 15 11:33
oiaohm	It price of licencing them.	Jun 15 11:33
fewa	problem is that computers are so powerful that they are pushing themselves out of the market	Jun 15 11:33
MinceR	or if nvidia is strong enough, they could buy one of the players	Jun 15 11:33
oiaohm	Nvidia has tried.	Jun 15 11:34
oiaohm	So far has not been able to buy out a player.	Jun 15 11:34
fewa	nvidia still ahs the best GPUs	Jun 15 11:34
MinceR	hm, if sun had patents, they've missed an opportunity	Jun 15 11:34
oiaohm	It part of what has kept sun alive MinceR	Jun 15 11:34
oiaohm	Most of the x86 cpu makers have cross licensing agreements.	Jun 15 11:35
oiaohm	Ie we will not charage you for our patents if you don't charage us for yours.	Jun 15 11:36
oiaohm	Basically without buying one of the cross licenced ones Nvidia cannot compete due to paying too much in licence with x86.	Jun 15 11:36
oiaohm	arm and mips open up another path for Nvidia to enter.	Jun 15 11:37
MinceR	is that a legal cartel?	Jun 15 11:37
oiaohm	Under current patent laws yes MinceR	Jun 15 11:37
MinceR	so much for the "free market"	Jun 15 11:38
oiaohm	We really screwed the market allowing a single cpu type to dominate.	Jun 15 11:40
MinceR	we really screwed the market allowing patents to be held for so long.	Jun 15 11:41
MinceR	(same with copyright)	Jun 15 11:41
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oiaohm	Patent system is majorally flawed.	Jun 15 11:42
oiaohm	There is also no requirement to sell patents at the same price either.	Jun 15 11:42
kentma	oiaohm: that would be an understatement of significant proportion...	Jun 15 11:43
oiaohm	So if I don't want someone competting with me its legal to sell them the use of the patent like a 1000 times as I sell to anyone else.	Jun 15 11:43
oiaohm	even nicer I can sell the patent under NDA so people who have it don't know they have been sold it at different prices.	Jun 15 11:44
oiaohm	Patents really should be a public sale item.	Jun 15 11:44
kentma	oiaohm: I'm 100% convinced that patents, like copyright, should belong to the originators of works, not their employers, or sold on, or anything else. I've been thinking this over for a while, and it seems like the only sensible approach.	Jun 15 11:45
oiaohm	Correcting sales correct free market operations.	Jun 15 11:46
kentma	The IET journal recently had an article explaining how any company should have an "IP" policy in place in order to make sure that they fantastic ideas their employees have remain the property of the shareholders, rather than the people who come up with the ideas, which would obviously be a disaster...	Jun 15 11:46
oiaohm	It would be nice if they where not transferable. For over all market correcting how they are sold and traded would cure a lot of problems.	Jun 15 11:47
oiaohm	And allow them to be investaged in cases of anti-trust.	Jun 15 11:47
oiaohm	I really do suspect there is a well of anti-trust actions going on with patents.	Jun 15 11:47
kentma	hold on... patents are, by definition, monopolies	Jun 15 11:48
oiaohm	Patents goals were to allow free trade of information.	Jun 15 11:48
fewa	oiaohm, did you watch that video?	Jun 15 11:48
oiaohm	The idea was that you could pay for use.	Jun 15 11:49
oiaohm	Patent documents were meet to open up information that would have been otherwise hidden in trade secrects.	Jun 15 11:50
kentma	oiaohm: err, not exactly, it was to recompense people for ideas	Jun 15 11:50
fewa	kentma, you should watch the video as well, points out some of the major flaws of the current patent system in the US http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0chez_Jf5A	Jun 15 11:50
fewa	kentma, patents are not meant to compensate people for ideas	Jun 15 11:50
kentma	fewa: I'll look it up, but I'm fairly well up to speed on most of this, to be honest.	Jun 15 11:50
oiaohm	When the first patent system was not formed over the ideas.	Jun 15 11:50
fewa	they are meant to increase the amount of innovation available to the public	Jun 15 11:51
kentma	The original patents were Royal Patents to grant monopolies to favoured people by the Monarch.	Jun 15 11:51
MinceR	125912 < oiaohm> There is also no requirement to sell patents at the same price either.	Jun 15 11:51
MinceR	then that's another way we really screwed the market.	Jun 15 11:51
fewa	kentma, the speaker is a patent lawyer	Jun 15 11:51
oiaohm	Royal Patents did not grant a monopolies.	Jun 15 11:52
kentma	Do you realise that patents began in the UK?	Jun 15 11:52
kentma	oiaohm: yes they did.	Jun 15 11:52
oiaohm	Anyone could reproduce the item as long as they paid fair ammount.	Jun 15 11:52
kentma	oiaohm: no, they were a gift to favoured people.	Jun 15 11:52
fewa	kentma, you arnt listening to oiaohm's point	Jun 15 11:52
oiaohm	And they could call for judgement what was a fair ammount to pay.	Jun 15 11:52
MinceR	kentma: sure, but how would you determine who the originator really is? otherwise we'd see the majority owners of companies "originate" a lot of patents.	Jun 15 11:53
oiaohm	Current system has no requirement that the amount payed to patent holder has to be fair.	Jun 15 11:53
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fewa	MinceR, low quality, invalid patents are a huge problem of the patent system	Jun 15 11:53
oiaohm	Basically the Royal Patent system was nicer.	Jun 15 11:53
kentma	oiaohm: no, that's a much later system. The original system was a gift!	Jun 15 11:53
fewa	The patent holder can force nobody to practice it at all	Jun 15 11:54
fewa	kentma, you still dont get the argument	Jun 15 11:54
kentma	eg: Mar 5, 1496 - The King, as we before said, viewed the plans of Cabot favourably, and on the 5th March, 1496,* granted him and his three sons, Lewis, Sebastian, and Sanchius, a royal patent authorising them to sail " to all parts, couutrys, and seas, of the East, of the West	Jun 15 11:54
splosion	schestowitz: re the stuff about Xandros. Did you see this article? http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25661/1231/	Jun 15 11:54
fewa	that US patents allow the holder to gain injunctions against anybody and prevent them from practicing the claim	Jun 15 11:54
kentma	fewa: I'm not having an argument. I'm pointing out that patents were originally a gift of a monopoly to a favoured person.	Jun 15 11:54
kentma	fewa: this is hundreds of years later...	Jun 15 11:55
schestowitz	splosion: I haven't yet	Jun 15 11:55
oiaohm	I was not thinking back to when patents were basically royal allowances kentma	Jun 15 11:55
oiaohm	They were not exculsive back then either kentma	Jun 15 11:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Accused of Lying About Market Share < http://ping.fm/00EiE >		Jun 15 11:55
kentma	oiaohm: argg!! yes the bl**dy well were!	Jun 15 11:55
oiaohm	The king could issue multiable the same.	Jun 15 11:56
kentma	the whole point of a patent was that it was a gift worth money.	Jun 15 11:56
kentma	oiaohm: well, I've told you enough - why don't you look it up?	Jun 15 11:56
fewa	kentma, but what you are talking about is correlary to gangsters splitting up a city	Jun 15 11:56
fewa	Its alot a more relaxed form of feudalism	Jun 15 11:57
fewa	*more diverse	Jun 15 11:58
splosion	I submitted a patent-ish story to ./ a few hours ago. I'll go see how she's doing	Jun 15 11:58
oiaohm	In the king case the king was the true patent holder. The others were making money form the patent rights they had been given.	Jun 15 11:58
splosion	oooh. orange!	Jun 15 11:59
oiaohm	The trade was not secret. Amount given for it was known.	Jun 15 11:59
oiaohm	Current day amount given is secret. So system does not work well.	Jun 15 12:00
fewa	Judges need the ability to set prices	Jun 15 12:00
oiaohm	Or at least the means to make sure everyone is being sold at the same price.	Jun 15 12:01
fewa	as patents are supose to be an economic motivator of innovation its backwards when they are used to prevent research, prevent innovation, and stp discuptive tech	Jun 15 12:01
oiaohm	If all patents were priced in advance patents really would not get in way that much.	Jun 15 12:02
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fewa	as yes, patent deal should be public	Jun 15 12:02
oiaohm	Its really stupid that patent documents are public and there trades don't have to be.	Jun 15 12:02
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splosion	hrmm. About four zillion red stories in the hose. my story looks unlikely to get frontpaged. aww	Jun 15 12:05
oiaohm	Correctly working patent and copyright systems would not be much harm.	Jun 15 12:08
oiaohm	Most of the issues with both is unfair sales.	Jun 15 12:08
fewa	you cannot have a correctly work system with out solving the collective action problems, both of the public, and of the members of the system	Jun 15 12:09
fewa	patents are bad because there is no disincentive to obtain bad patents	Jun 15 12:09
fewa	*may patents are bad	Jun 15 12:09
oiaohm	What would be the motive to get bad patents if you could not really blackmail selected people with them.	Jun 15 12:10
fewa	you can	Jun 15 12:11
oiaohm	The unfair pricing allows them to be used more as weapons.	Jun 15 12:11
fewa	because the way the patent system works all patents are assumed valid after issue until a jury decieds otherwise	Jun 15 12:11
fewa	so it cost money and time to invalidate a patent, all while there is a temporry injunction against your business	Jun 15 12:11
oiaohm	Open pricing forces number 1 lower pricing. Number 2 everyone using it could also know.	Jun 15 12:11
fewa	leading you to bankruptcy	Jun 15 12:12
oiaohm	Current system makes fighting over patents 1 on 1.	Jun 15 12:12
oiaohm	Not 1 on many.	Jun 15 12:12
oiaohm	Ie patent holder vs many.	Jun 15 12:12
fewa	there is no disincentive in having a bad patent	Jun 15 12:12
fewa	as the alternative is no patent at all	Jun 15 12:12
oiaohm	I agree the should be costs from a patent being invalidated.	Jun 15 12:13
oiaohm	On the patent holder.	Jun 15 12:13
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oiaohm	Current sales system is the worse factor. Followed by no price for invalid patents.	Jun 15 12:14
alanbell1	hi	Jun 15 12:14
_Mutex_	patent issues are always 1 on 1, its the patent holder against the patent breaker, what's a "bad" patent.	Jun 15 12:14
fewa	the current patent system is composed of three elements	Jun 15 12:14
fewa	fear	Jun 15 12:14
fewa	uncertainty	Jun 15 12:14
fewa	and doubt	Jun 15 12:14
oiaohm	patent issues should not be 1 on 1.	Jun 15 12:14
oiaohm	When it comes to if the patent is valid or invalid.	Jun 15 12:15
_Mutex_	The current patent system is composed of ONE element,,,	Jun 15 12:15
alanbell1	just wondering what you guys think about the toshiba refusal to do windows refunds, as documented at http://nakedcomputers.org	Jun 15 12:15
_Mutex_	THE LAW	Jun 15 12:15
oiaohm	It should be patent holder vs all users.	Jun 15 12:15
fewa	alanbell1, go to small claims court	Jun 15 12:15
fewa	I have read accounts that it worked great in california	Jun 15 12:15
oiaohm	The law allows class actions for a reason _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:15
fewa	or yes class action	Jun 15 12:15
alanbell1	fewa: not my purchase, but I could do a purchase for the purposes of taking action, if I thought it was a good idea	Jun 15 12:16
oiaohm	All patent cases should be class actions of patent holder vs users of patent.	Jun 15 12:16
fewa	alanbell1, the law is on your side, if Microsoft or its OEMs deny a refund they greatly weaken their anti-competitive defences	Jun 15 12:16
oiaohm	Unless people have not paid for patents then 1 on 1.	Jun 15 12:16
_Mutex_	the user does not breach a patent, the person (or company) that productes the goods that breach the patent is the LAW breaker.	Jun 15 12:16
oiaohm	_Mutex_: user of patent.	Jun 15 12:17
oiaohm	Ie company producing the goods _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:17
_Mutex_	You can argue what it "should" be all day, wont change a thing, it is what it is, most people accecpt that law as it stands, if you dont like it you work and vote to have it changed.	Jun 15 12:17
_Mutex_	You, the company producing the goods, exactly.	Jun 15 12:17
_Mutex_	Like tomtom, not the users of GPS's	Jun 15 12:18
fewa	_Mutex_, the court of appears has already changed much	Jun 15 12:18
_Mutex_	thats good, and how it should be, but just because you dont agree with the existing laws does not give you a RIGHT to break it.	Jun 15 12:19
oiaohm	_Mutex_: talking about problem is part of fighting it. To attack something you need a platform that everyone can agree on.	Jun 15 12:19
schestowitz	Toshiba?	Jun 15 12:19
schestowitz	I heard of it before.	Jun 15 12:20
schestowitz	I think we wrote about it	Jun 15 12:20
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oiaohm	Remember pen is more powerful than a sword.	Jun 15 12:20
_Mutex_	talking about it is a very poor way to fight it, you need to do a little more, mabey talk to someone who can actually make a change, like your elected leaders. But talking about it here (for example) just makes you more frustrated, as its basically totally ineffectual. Like who here will loby or work to change the law ? and how ?	Jun 15 12:22
_Mutex_	It is, used correctly,, yes	Jun 15 12:22
oiaohm	Do you think I don't do that already _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:22
_Mutex_	so whining about it here is effective, and achieve the results you are seeking ? hows that working for you ?	Jun 15 12:22
_Mutex_	I hope you do,, and good on you for that..	Jun 15 12:22
_Mutex_	thats what should be done,, well done	Jun 15 12:23
oiaohm	What I was doing was aligning view.	Jun 15 12:23
fewa	ignore the trolls	Jun 15 12:23
oiaohm	Talking to people in all different places is required to work out the most effective alignment to use _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:23
alanbell1	schestowitz: can't find any article about toshiba specifically	Jun 15 12:23
_Mutex_	you right, but as you said, as some stage you actually have to do a touch more than just talk, its a start (but a small one). and you guys have been at this for a long time now. Years..	Jun 15 12:24
oiaohm	Besides once we have alignment there is no reason why a irc channel could not be used to rally an event. There no point having a rally to do something if you end up fighting with each other.	Jun 15 12:25
_Mutex_	thats right	Jun 15 12:25
oiaohm	I was basically checking that my view will align.	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	alanbell1: I think we covered the same URL	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	http://nakedcomputers.org	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	And spoke about Tooshiba	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	Let me check	Jun 15 12:27
alanbell1	the toshiba thing is new	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	BTW, "naked" is a bad word here	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	It's MS' way of making it sound bad	Jun 15 12:27
schestowitz	Rather than "clean PC" or "open PC"	Jun 15 12:28
alanbell1	I am reclaiming it!	Jun 15 12:28
alanbell1	naked is good	Jun 15 12:28
splosion	I'd love to get a naked PC. good stuff, despite the disparaging term	Jun 15 12:28
oiaohm	I love it.	Jun 15 12:28
oiaohm	EULA provided in windows is contrary documentation.	Jun 15 12:29
oiaohm	So the sticker is void.	Jun 15 12:29
oiaohm	It more a bluff.	Jun 15 12:29
alanbell1	well the notwithstanding bit attempts to override the EULA	Jun 15 12:30
_Mutex_	im sure its very easy here to get your view "aligned", when you are talking to a very small group that think exactly as you do, probably better to see how um, "average" man on the street feels about your idea, nothing will be possible without public support, without public support you just look like a splinter group of radicales. which im sure you dont want to look like, mabey form a fund for a PR rep and lobyists for your cause.	Jun 15 12:30
splosion	is it too much to scratch the Windows-logo off my keyboard's super buttons?	Jun 15 12:30
_Mutex_	I can buy blank hard drives here in Australia, no problem	Jun 15 12:30
oiaohm	_Mutex_: I do.	Jun 15 12:30
_Mutex_	great	Jun 15 12:30
oiaohm	This is just small bit. _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:31
fewa	splosion, i have a apple keyboard without those logos :P	Jun 15 12:31
oiaohm	notwithstanding bit is the trap alanbell1	Jun 15 12:32
oiaohm	Without it they would be in breach of EULA	Jun 15 12:32
_Mutex_	I can also buy all the other components, or go and buy a PC complete with NO os, or with windows and OSS browsers from the OEM. there is very little or no real lockin here, unless you go to a big department store.	Jun 15 12:32
splosion	I want a keyboard with those keys labelled as "Awesome" buttons	Jun 15 12:32
fewa	but they cant do that	Jun 15 12:32
oiaohm	If you ring up tooshibiba and quote the EULA they will refund.	Jun 15 12:33
oiaohm	Even if that sticker is on the device.	Jun 15 12:33
alanbell1	_Mutex_: harder to buy a naked laptop. Especially if you want a specific model.	Jun 15 12:33
alanbell1	oiaohm: I don't want one refund.	Jun 15 12:33
alanbell1	I want them to stop doing it.	Jun 15 12:33
oiaohm	As I say it is just a trick fewa	Jun 15 12:33
oiaohm	Evil trick.	Jun 15 12:33
oiaohm	They should be pulled over the coals for it.	Jun 15 12:33
_Mutex_	so what responses have you recieved from your local politicians, and have you gained and commitments of support from them for your cause ?	Jun 15 12:33
fewa	oiaohm, but it just shows more anti-competitive microsoft action	Jun 15 12:34
_Mutex_	yes laptops are harder, but you can still do it, you just have to ask.	Jun 15 12:34
splosion	If Linux was pre-installed on 90% of computers sold in shops, you'd see people complaining about getting Windows too. You'd see people claiming Windows isn't ready for the desktop too.	Jun 15 12:34
fewa	funny thing is that vista is less ready for desktops than linux is	Jun 15 12:34
fewa	especially vista 7	Jun 15 12:35
_Mutex_	its not an issue of popularity, its an issue of functionality.. Unix (and therefore Linux) was around for 15 to 20 years before MS or windows even existed.	Jun 15 12:35
oiaohm	Particularly with me trying 2.6.30 Linux kernel. Other than a few issues with old sound libs everything is working basically perfectly.	Jun 15 12:35
_Mutex_	MS was also way over commodor Pet, and Mac.	Jun 15 12:35
splosion	it's a matter of opinion, really. But my point remainds valid. The choice to build a PC from scratch or to ask the retailer to do you a deal isn't really a good one. It's a start, but it's hardly fair	Jun 15 12:35
fewa	_Mutex_, dont make that stupid argument Linux != commercial UNIX	Jun 15 12:36
alanbell1	_Mutex_: the hardness of buying naked computers is why I set up a directory of good suppliers. I don't want a naked computer to be a special request, under the counter or top shelf type of purchase.	Jun 15 12:36
oiaohm	Thinking that Linux is a long way to becoming a full RTOS that no commercial UNIX has ever been.	Jun 15 12:36
_Mutex_	little is "fair" in business, its a cut throat world, that if you wan to play in, they make the rules, if you wan to play you have to do it right. and NO im not saying its good or bad, it is what it is.	Jun 15 12:37
oiaohm	RTOS supportting kernels are commonly used by people reworking audio.	Jun 15 12:37
fewa	_Mutex_, thats why Microsoft is dyin	Jun 15 12:37
fewa	Microsoft cant compete with their slower form or innovation	Jun 15 12:38
oiaohm	Windows 7 is really a laugh.	Jun 15 12:38
_Mutex_	Linux is no where near a RTOS, and probably will never be, unless its completely re-written from scratch for that purpose, QNX is a fully POSIX RTOS, its been done allready.	Jun 15 12:38
oiaohm	LOL _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:39
_Mutex_	making a monolithic OS, RTOS is hard,,	Jun 15 12:39
_Mutex_	if not impossible	Jun 15 12:39
oiaohm	Its less than 1 meg of code off.	Jun 15 12:39
oiaohm	The final cpu management alterations is all that is missing _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:39
fewa	Its just like the vetern Office developer: "Microsoft itself represents a grave threat to the future of software development through its increasing inclination to stifle competition through legal shenanigans"	Jun 15 12:39
oiaohm	The rest is mainline in 2.6.30 kernels _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:39
oiaohm	So its not impossible with a patch you can have Linux kernel a true RTOS today.	Jun 15 12:40
_Mutex_	I dont think you have a good understanding of what an RTOS is or what its structure is like, ! but fair enough, but you should look it up, and do some study. Not that RTOS is really much good for most of what Linux does.	Jun 15 12:41
fewa	yeah Linux real time is right there, fully interruptible kernel code	Jun 15 12:41
oiaohm	Audio processing people do use linux with that patch _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:41
_Mutex_	THere are other RTOS allready filling that market.	Jun 15 12:41
_Mutex_	Audio processing is not an RTOS function, its a batch process.	Jun 15 12:41
oiaohm	Every in the Linux kernel can be overriden to meet a RTOS requirement _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:41
_Mutex_	you dont need predictable responce and latency times, to process and chunk of data, and you dont need interrupt driven functions, and immediate excetpions handing.	Jun 15 12:42
oiaohm	Real time processing of audio is not a batch process _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:42
fewa	_Mutex_, and you are defending Windows, which cant even use a hardware audio stack?	Jun 15 12:42
_Mutex_	Also RTOS, take functionality away from the USER as first priority, so it actually give a lower quality user experience, as they are second to background RTOS functions. THe USER can wail he /she does not matter. (for RTOS's)	Jun 15 12:43
_Mutex_	No im commenting on the State of FOSS.	Jun 15 12:43
_Mutex_	I have not even mentioned any other OS have I ?	Jun 15 12:44
fewa	_Mutex_, welcome to the compile time options of linux	Jun 15 12:44
_Mutex_	Windows is NOT RTOS either,	Jun 15 12:44
oiaohm	_Mutex_: You are critical wrong.	Jun 15 12:44
oiaohm	RTOS support does not have to take away users controls.	Jun 15 12:44
_Mutex_	You cannot just set some compiler switches and amazingly build an RTOS,	Jun 15 12:44
oiaohm	If user wants particular feature to be done exacty when they need a RTOS is useful.	Jun 15 12:44
_Mutex_	RTOS's put the user LAST, over the RT bit,	Jun 15 12:45
oiaohm	The complete internal struct of Linux were altered to make it RTOS.	Jun 15 12:45
oiaohm	At times that is exactly what the user wants _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:45
_Mutex_	really, so linux kernel is all interrupt driven now ?, I dont think so.	Jun 15 12:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Antitrust in Europe, Russia, South Korea < http://ping.fm/HONow >		Jun 15 12:45
_Mutex_	what times ?	Jun 15 12:45
_Mutex_	in what situation s/	Jun 15 12:45
fewa	_Mutex_, your completely missing it	Jun 15 12:46
_Mutex_	im sorry im not,	Jun 15 12:46
oiaohm	Linux kernel can currently operate completely interrupt driven if that is your wish.	Jun 15 12:46
_Mutex_	would you like to then explain to me what an RTOS does, and how its generally achieved ?	Jun 15 12:46
oiaohm	Linux is a flexable system.	Jun 15 12:46
oiaohm	You are thinking 1 state systems.	Jun 15 12:47
oiaohm	Linux can have items operating with RT requirement to be ment or it can have nothing with RT requirements.	Jun 15 12:47
_Mutex_	um no im not	Jun 15 12:47
fewa	you are	Jun 15 12:47
oiaohm	It operates anywhere between a genernal OS and a full blown RTOS.	Jun 15 12:47
_Mutex_	ok sure :)	Jun 15 12:47
fewa	you said that functions of a kernel cant be decided during compile time	Jun 15 12:47
oiaohm	If users as tasks that are time critical or items that must be respond to time critical.	Jun 15 12:48
oiaohm	They can make those items RTOS with a RTOS patched Linux kernel.	Jun 15 12:48
oiaohm	It is at the users control. _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:48
_Mutex_	sorry, but thats a dream, you clearly have little concept of what an RTOS IS. but thats ok, mabey your not a programmer, or mabey you dont have experience with RTOS's or what they are used for. and its not ripping audio files or batch processes.	Jun 15 12:49
oiaohm	I could see lexmark printer drivers using this.	Jun 15 12:49
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oiaohm	So they don't bash into side of printer.	Jun 15 12:49
MinceR	_Mutex_: there are RTOS patches for Linux.	Jun 15 12:50
_Mutex_	so what RTOS METHODS does it employ? there are about 6 main ones, but y ou know that right	Jun 15 12:50
oiaohm	The form of RTOS for audio is live events. Where person is playing real time. So stuff has to be qued and are being overrided on fly. _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:51
_Mutex_	semephores ?? or something else ?	Jun 15 12:51
MinceR	what have semaphores have to do with that? semaphores are supported in stock linux	Jun 15 12:51
_Mutex_	there you go queing is not RT	Jun 15 12:51
MinceR	the patch i knew about was https://www.rtai.org/	Jun 15 12:52
MinceR	but searching for "real-time linux" turns up lots of projects	Jun 15 12:52
splosion	http://www.rtlinuxfree.com/	Jun 15 12:52
splosion	for example	Jun 15 12:52
oiaohm	http://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page << This is the main one going mainline for real time support.	Jun 15 12:53
_Mutex_	ofcourse it has, but its how its used, and what else its used. its how tasking is handled, memory, inter-task comms, system calls, interrups, premptive, critical, and most importantly task priority, and inerrrupt letency.	Jun 15 12:54
MinceR	http://www.mvista.com/real_time_linux.php	Jun 15 12:54
oiaohm	premptive is the last bit _Mutex_	Jun 15 12:54
fewa	_Mutex_, the source is right there	Jun 15 12:54
fewa	a git clone away	Jun 15 12:54
MinceR	preemptible kernel has been in mainline for a long time	Jun 15 12:54
oiaohm	RT preemptive is not there.	Jun 15 12:55
MinceR	preemptive multitasking has been in it from the start	Jun 15 12:55
oiaohm	Ie event triggered.	Jun 15 12:55
_Mutex_	preemptive multitalking is NOT the same thing, but yes your right its been in software ever since the invention of the L1, L2, L3 cache,	Jun 15 12:56
oiaohm	inter-task, memory, system calls and interrupts are all basically solved.	Jun 15 12:58
oiaohm	for RT support.	Jun 15 12:59
_Mutex_	ok, no problems,	Jun 15 12:59
oiaohm	Linux is a long way down the path to becoming a RTOS.	Jun 15 12:59
oiaohm	Its only been worked on for 6 years.	Jun 15 12:59
_Mutex_	yea, thats a long time,	Jun 15 13:00
oiaohm	Its not something they just did over night and its one of the major reason why the internal abi of the linux kernel has been changing so much.	Jun 15 13:00
oiaohm	RCU support tech from IBM was a great assistance in many places.	Jun 15 13:01
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_Mutex_	ok but for what ends is this done for ? No one wants or needs an RTOS on teh desktop, or the server, but it does have uses, but that field is also allready supported by Linux/Unix type products, that have that 6 years + in maturity, not development. again QNX springs to mind.	Jun 15 13:02
MinceR	well, the BeOS guys wanted an RTOS on the desktop, didn't they?	Jun 15 13:03
MinceR	afaik it's useful for making a single-core mobile phone	Jun 15 13:03
MinceR	(iirc that's what MontaVista was aiming for)	Jun 15 13:03
MinceR	remember Linux isn't desktop-only	Jun 15 13:03
oiaohm	Funny enough fixes for RTOS support has reduced time in kernel space _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:04
oiaohm	So increasing the performance of desktop and server.	Jun 15 13:04
_Mutex_	its great and intended for embedded, not desktop, RTOS's put function first but the USER second, so user experience can be less with RTOS, as you wait for critical tasks (higher than you) do complete. IF thats what y ou want ok.	Jun 15 13:04
oiaohm	User mode drivers _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:05
oiaohm	They are kinda time critical.	Jun 15 13:05
oiaohm	Some of them.	Jun 15 13:05
oiaohm	There is a requirement in the desktop.	Jun 15 13:05
_Mutex_	if your doing something it does not matter, if the OS gets a "job" it will drop you and deal with it RIGHT NOW IN REAL TIME. you will NOT be the no.1 thing the OS cares about.	Jun 15 13:06
_Mutex_	for what ?	Jun 15 13:06
_Mutex_	on the desktop ?	Jun 15 13:06
oiaohm	Brain dead printer come to mind.	Jun 15 13:06
oiaohm	There are others.	Jun 15 13:06
_Mutex_	printer, is batched, Really.	Jun 15 13:06
_Mutex_	do better	Jun 15 13:06
oiaohm	No	Jun 15 13:06
_Mutex_	and NOT RT	Jun 15 13:06
oiaohm	some printers dont' have a cpu internally.	Jun 15 13:07
_Mutex_	I know that	Jun 15 13:07
_Mutex_	but its NOT a real time function	Jun 15 13:07
oiaohm	So cpu of computer is required to tell them to stop and not break self.	Jun 15 13:07
oiaohm	By hitting into side of printer.	Jun 15 13:07
_Mutex_	a print job is not RT	Jun 15 13:07
_Mutex_	has never been, not will ever be	Jun 15 13:08
oiaohm	should not be.	Jun 15 13:08
_Mutex_	you dont get a printer generating an interrupt and saying DEAL WITH ME RIGHT NOW.	Jun 15 13:08
oiaohm	There are some cheep lexmarks that do break self if you have load at the wrong time.	Jun 15 13:08
_Mutex_	generally you hit the PRINT KEY, and it goes off and does the job.	Jun 15 13:08
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_Mutex_	you dont understand what an RTOS does, its not driving a printer. sorry	Jun 15 13:09
oiaohm	Usermode drivers in Linux can be driving basically anything _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:09
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_Mutex_	I know, but that does not make them Real time critical tasks, surly y ou know that right ?	Jun 15 13:09
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oiaohm	Depends on the item _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:10
stevendh	Hello	Jun 15 13:10
_Mutex_	It depends on the task, batch jobs, and user selected tasks like PRINT are not real time.	Jun 15 13:10
_Mutex_	Hello steve	Jun 15 13:10
stevendh	question: does anybody know what happend to this lawsuit: http://slated.org/microsoft_kills_baby	Jun 15 13:10
stevendh	?	Jun 15 13:11
oiaohm	_Mutex_: driving a lexmark printers some of them is very much a real time job. Normal print goes to a que and you are right. But having to tell devices to stop at exact points and send data at exact times because the internals of the device are basically cache and cpu less. Its a reason why some lexmark printers don't have Linux drivers and they do break under windows as well. Kinda too cheep.	Jun 15 13:13
splosion	http://www.eetimes.eu/217800001 Haha, Google caused the current economic crisis	Jun 15 13:14
kentma	out of court settlement most likely, for a some of money so huge that you'd need all the seven dwarfs to help you carry it, in order to keep the involved parties from ever speaking a word about it. That's my guess - gag the press.	Jun 15 13:15
stevendh	kentma: I can't seem to find some other outcome easily, so your answer seems very likely	Jun 15 13:16
kentma	I meant "sum" of course :-)	Jun 15 13:16
stevendh	though ms seemed very confident that it was the parent's fault their house burned down.	Jun 15 13:16
kentma	I suspect that the lawyers were progressing the case until the spinmasters heard of it and then promptly jumped to the rescue "loss, if any..."	Jun 15 13:17
_Mutex_	so the xbox drew SO much current from power that its caught on fire,,, PLEASE SPARE ME.	Jun 15 13:18
*stevendh shudders at hearing "loss, if any"		Jun 15 13:18
oiaohm	_Mutex_: They cut cost on materials.	Jun 15 13:19
_Mutex_	would not be the TV that draws hughly more current than an xbox	Jun 15 13:19
oiaohm	It was not the draw was the problem.	Jun 15 13:19
fewa	stevendh, and Microsoft had already recalled power cables over fire concerns	Jun 15 13:19
oiaohm	It was the complete construction of the power supply unit _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:19
fewa	they knew they had a faulty product	Jun 15 13:19
_Mutex_	cutting cost on materials does not make an xbox draw enough current to melt the power point,, sorry thats just stupid.	Jun 15 13:19
fewa	and they still blamed the victim	Jun 15 13:19
oiaohm	It was going to over heat and burn _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:19
fewa	damn	Jun 15 13:20
oiaohm	Removing a cooling fan from designs is never a good thing _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:20
kentma	fewa: it was appalling	Jun 15 13:20
kentma	fewa: downright dangerous.	Jun 15 13:20
fewa	kentma, just disgusting	Jun 15 13:20
_Mutex_	so what, there is NO way an xbox can draw 5 or 10 amps OR MORE that would be required to set the CABLE on fire, thats a joke.	Jun 15 13:20
fewa	disgusting, and morally despicable	Jun 15 13:21
oiaohm	Power supply melts and becomes a direct short _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:21
kentma	fewa: but, there's a track record here... I suspect that there wasn't much of a need to drop much lower than prevoius behaviour.	Jun 15 13:21
oiaohm	So yep defective powersupply units _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:21
_Mutex_	its appalling that you pick ONE item from that is obviously simply an overloaded powerboard. C'mon lets keep it sane here	Jun 15 13:21
oiaohm	Can more than burn your houses wiring out _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:21
_Mutex_	DO THE MATH,	Jun 15 13:21
fewa	they deserve to get a multi-million dollar payment for such disgrace and damages	Jun 15 13:21
_Mutex_	so it would not be that the house did not have a fuse or circuit braker right ???	Jun 15 13:22
oiaohm	You do know 1 in 2000 overload protected powerboards normally does not work.	Jun 15 13:22
_Mutex_	NO it would not be as simple as a fuse designed to stop this, to occur,	Jun 15 13:22
_Mutex_	no it has to be evil MS, not a fuse with a nail in it, or a faulty house wiring, (like it allways is).	Jun 15 13:23
oiaohm	They also removed the overload switch from the power supply design.	Jun 15 13:23
oiaohm	That saves a nice 15 cents.	Jun 15 13:23
kentma	fewa: I suspect that they probably had all of that and more, in order to keep the family completely silent about their appalling loss	Jun 15 13:23
_Mutex_	BUT NOT FROM THE FREAKING HOUSE !!!	Jun 15 13:23
kentma	oiaohm: oops.	Jun 15 13:23
fewa	they can sue for trauma	Jun 15 13:23
kentma	oiaohm: crowbar designs were always good. Saved many a television over the decades.	Jun 15 13:23
fewa	as well	Jun 15 13:23
_Mutex_	Did MS go to their place and remove the mains fuse, or weld the circuit breaker shut ??	Jun 15 13:23
kentma	fewa: not if they reached a settlement, one suspects.	Jun 15 13:23
fewa	moral blasphemy	Jun 15 13:24
_Mutex_	My god, sometimes, the comments here, comtain almost ZERO thought	Jun 15 13:24
oiaohm	_Mutex_: circuit breakers are not instant.	Jun 15 13:24
kentma	fewa: It's hard to know where to begin on that story, to be honest.	Jun 15 13:24
stevendh	settlements just prevent bad press, not necesarily to do with real damage or guilt	Jun 15 13:24
oiaohm	A strong enough direct short with a circuit breaker or a fuse can still light wiring.	Jun 15 13:24
oiaohm	Particularly if wiring is over 10 years old.	Jun 15 13:24
_Mutex_	Im an electronics engineer I KNOW, but they DO work, and they will trip WAY before wiring melts and you should damn well know that.	Jun 15 13:24
kentma	circuit breakers? On mains circuits, mine come in at 30 Amps... 30 amps @ 240volts!	Jun 15 13:24
_Mutex_	thats the moral blasphemy	Jun 15 13:24
kentma	That's ~ 10kW!	Jun 15 13:25
kentma	My immersion heater is only 7kW	Jun 15 13:25
_Mutex_	That will be for your oven, GPS (powerpoints) are 10 amps rated.	Jun 15 13:25
_Mutex_	ie 2.4Kw	Jun 15 13:25
oiaohm	In the xbox case heat sink become the short between wires.	Jun 15 13:25
fewa	Microsoft hardware is all crap	Jun 15 13:25
_Mutex_	Nice sweeping statement, but in this case, its not the products on teh power circuit, ITS THE POWER CIRCUIT.	Jun 15 13:26
kentma	fewa: I've only ever seen their mice.	Jun 15 13:26
oiaohm	All it takes is a set of failures _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:26
fewa	360s had some of the lowest yields in the business	Jun 15 13:26
stevendh	suppose the house's wiring was crap; isn't the power supply supposed not to catch fire anyway?	Jun 15 13:27
_Mutex_	NO its does not, do some study,	Jun 15 13:27
oiaohm	The power supply it self should have been better designed.	Jun 15 13:27
oiaohm	There over ride switch should have still been there.	Jun 15 13:27
fewa	_Mutex_, its the same argument the car companies made, that it was always the drivers fault	Jun 15 13:27
oiaohm	Power supply should have had suitable cooling.	Jun 15 13:27
fewa	when they had cars that impaled people needlessly	Jun 15 13:27
_Mutex_	the article said the WIRING caught on fire, its is obviously an overloaded power circuit, and not fuse of circut breaker.	Jun 15 13:27
oiaohm	So it did not overheat.	Jun 15 13:27
stevendh	fewa: "needlessly"...	Jun 15 13:28
oiaohm	Matterials holding the heat sink should not have been meltable.	Jun 15 13:28
kentma	stevendh: the house wiring's circuit breakers are to protect the house wiring - they cannot protect appliances connected to it.	Jun 15 13:28
_Mutex_	Of course, but if the power supply is able to get that hot, its drawing more current than is SUPPOSED to be delivered without the fuse blowing.	Jun 15 13:28
fewa	stevendh, ok, they had fins and styling that would catch on peoples clothes, reflect and blind drivers, etc	Jun 15 13:28
_Mutex_	Sorry, but on this I have to call you on FUD.	Jun 15 13:28
fewa	no seat belts, etc	Jun 15 13:28
oiaohm	Xbox360 powersupplies over heat proving the power they should have.	Jun 15 13:28
fewa	yet they blamed always the driver, or the engineer of the road	Jun 15 13:29
oiaohm	In about 8 hours.	Jun 15 13:29
kentma	stevendh: so soft bumpers, steel steering wheels with no padding...	Jun 15 13:29
oiaohm	Start melting at about 18.	Jun 15 13:29
oiaohm	Note over heat shutoff is missing _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:29
kentma	fewa: I believe the Ford Pinto changed the rules in the end.	Jun 15 13:29
oiaohm	Basically it was a 100 percent unsafe powersupply _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:29
fewa	kentma, and Ralph Nader's Unsafe at Any Speed	Jun 15 13:29
kentma	fewa: :-)	Jun 15 13:29
_Mutex_	say all you like for wiring to catch fire the fuse or CCT breaker had to be defeated, end of story.	Jun 15 13:29
oiaohm	Reason why MS ended up having to recall lots of them _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:29
fewa	kentma, which GM responded to by hiring private investigators to fallow his around	Jun 15 13:30
fewa	instead of fixing its cars	Jun 15 13:30
_Mutex_	buy a book on BASIC electricity, learn OHMS law	Jun 15 13:30
oiaohm	Should powersupply been shipped without any form of internal overload protection _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:30
kentma	fewa: it's less expensive to harrass someone than to fix a design flaw - precisely what MS were trying to do with their baby-killing Xbox	Jun 15 13:30
kentma	oiaohm: it's surprising it ever got EU type approval.	Jun 15 13:31
fewa	and thats why you have to fight back against harassment	Jun 15 13:31
oiaohm	Its not like circuit breakers don't fail. _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:31
fewa	get injunctions against it, get damages	Jun 15 13:31
_Mutex_	CCT breakers are FAIL SAFE, if they fail they open	Jun 15 13:31
oiaohm	Everything is meant to be designed double point of fail.	Jun 15 13:31
_Mutex_	its called good design	Jun 15 13:31
fewa	incite public outrage	Jun 15 13:31
_Mutex_	just like a fuse	Jun 15 13:31
oiaohm	As with all thing made by humans they should fail open. Does not mean they always will _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:31
kentma	fewa: I don't think that MS have all that many friends any more. Something like this could turn them into "public enemy"	Jun 15 13:32
_Mutex_	well they never do, and there are billions and billions of them everywhere	Jun 15 13:32
oiaohm	MS powersupply missing the secound levels of protection completely was insane.	Jun 15 13:32
fewa	but the more outraged people are the more they may listen to issues of patent and copyright	Jun 15 13:32
fewa	and monopolies	Jun 15 13:32
oiaohm	Heck the powersupply alone with the right matterials on it could have lit up house _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:33
kentma	fewa: perhaps, although I don't think that your average man in the street cares a jot for either of these issues. they do care a lot about babies, though.	Jun 15 13:33
_Mutex_	that also cant happen because every product has to be sold with a c tick and you cant get that if you dont have all the correct safety incorportated.	Jun 15 13:33
fewa	i guess	Jun 15 13:33
_Mutex_	face it, your scraping the bottom of the barrell for FUD, sorry im the voice of reason, but what your saying is not helping you, just confirming your poor understanding of umm,, things..	Jun 15 13:34
kentma	Now, if you could find a way of making patent, copyright and monopoly interesting to the man in the street, that would be something.	Jun 15 13:34
kentma	But I can't think of how. At least, not yet, anyway :-)	Jun 15 13:34
oiaohm	_Mutex_: designed approved was not the designed shipped _Mutex_. MS did get into a lot of trouble over that.	Jun 15 13:34
stevendh	kentma: drm?	Jun 15 13:34
fewa	kentma, the man on the street does care about about prices	Jun 15 13:35
_Mutex_	it is, if you ship, sell, or OWN a product not certified, you are criminal neglegent, so was Mom on the baby criminal ?	Jun 15 13:35
kentma	stevendh: again, most people were quite happy buying iPods and playing apple-only music. Heck, a few people even bought "plays for sure" before Microsoft killed it (for sure!)	Jun 15 13:35
_Mutex_	or the country it happend in ?	Jun 15 13:35
kentma	fewa: true, very very true, yes.	Jun 15 13:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] various household phone calls made, agencies LARTed, f playing with a outside, now doing DWP paperwork online		Jun 15 13:35
oiaohm	_Mutex_: it was tag as approved.	Jun 15 13:35
oiaohm	_Mutex_: it was usa. MS blamed the supplier.	Jun 15 13:36
fewa	Its like DHL now has a system in the US where they manage a shipment, but they dont actually ship it	Jun 15 13:36
fewa	they just pay other carrier to do it	Jun 15 13:36
fewa	so you dont know which common carrier is responsible	Jun 15 13:36
oiaohm	_Mutex_: MS could be telling the truth there. The parts removed would have made supplier more profit.	Jun 15 13:37
stevendh	some shady affair again...	Jun 15 13:37
kentma	fewa: when outsources start to outsource, you have to wonder just how the model really works.	Jun 15 13:37
_Mutex_	us uses 120 volts not 240, (or 115), so the current is twice as high (as 240vac) Ohms law again,	Jun 15 13:37
fewa	_Mutex_, even if so Microsoft is at fault, must defend itsself, and then sue the supplier for negligence	Jun 15 13:37
_Mutex_	and you cant remove parts, and even if you did, fact still remains, that the power supply should of shut down,	Jun 15 13:37
_Mutex_	IT DID NOT	Jun 15 13:37
_Mutex_	make whatever excuses you like, to justify your bias, but facts are facts.	Jun 15 13:38
stevendh	kentma: aren't at least some people realising "plays for sure" was a major scam? realising they've been ripped off?	Jun 15 13:38
fewa	_Mutex_, you are responsible for products you sell, even if a downstream supplier screwed up	Jun 15 13:38
_Mutex_	yes, thats right	Jun 15 13:38
fewa	_Mutex_, the only recourse is to then resue your supplier for the losses	Jun 15 13:38
fewa	_Mutex_, but thats the companies internal business, not that of the consumer	Jun 15 13:39
_Mutex_	but that does not matter, for ANY device to get hot enough to catch fire, the fuse, house wiring and circuit breaker IS THE FAULT.	Jun 15 13:39
kentma	stevendh: not really, no. Most people really don't care about this stuff at all. They read the tabloids, watch the soaps, go to clubs, watch footy, drink beer, have a beach holiday in the summer...	Jun 15 13:39
_Mutex_	NOT ANY PRODUCT on the circuit, but the circuit itself.	Jun 15 13:39
oiaohm	MS is not alone for having cases using overseas supplier's in the usa to find items from circuirt board missing and basically bridged out.	Jun 15 13:39
oiaohm	It is a risk when dealing with the cheepest quote to make something.	Jun 15 13:40
stevendh	kentma: too many degrees of separation between everyone and someone who's $2000 music collection was flushed by ms?	Jun 15 13:40
fewa	stevendh, the FTC was talking about mandating that any DRM schemes employed in the US they would have to give the FTC a copy of the keys	Jun 15 13:41
_Mutex_	so what, It does not matter if you throw a spanner across the circuit, it is designed and will shut off the power, it did not, it should have, its the house wiring and protection fault not a product connected to it.	Jun 15 13:41
stevendh	fewa: spectacular, has mpaa/riaa bought the ftc?	Jun 15 13:41
fewa	something that needs to be implamented	Jun 15 13:41
stevendh	otherwise: not gonna happen	Jun 15 13:41
oiaohm	Both were at fault _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:42
fewa	could just be talk	Jun 15 13:42
kentma	stevendh: probably, yes. Also, I think there's something of an "easy come, easy go" philosophy amongst our youthful generations.	Jun 15 13:42
_Mutex_	Does MS manufacture xbox's or is it outsourced ?	Jun 15 13:42
kentma	stevendh: I'd call it waste...	Jun 15 13:42
oiaohm	outsourced the powersupply _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:42
oiaohm	I know that for sure.	Jun 15 13:42
oiaohm	they could have outsourced the complete thing.	Jun 15 13:43
_Mutex_	Even if the xbox was at fault and it shorted out, (it happens with EVERYTHING sometimes) thats what the fuse and circuit breakers are for.	Jun 15 13:43
fewa	http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/03/ftc-well-come-calling-about-deceptive-drm.ars	Jun 15 13:43
stevendh	oiaohm: both at fault, and to what degree?	Jun 15 13:43
_Mutex_	things short out all the time., thats why you have fuses.	Jun 15 13:43
_Mutex_	not both at fault,	Jun 15 13:43
oiaohm	Things should not be shipped in a state that is 100 percent sure it will short out	Jun 15 13:43
oiaohm	That is why its both.	Jun 15 13:44
_Mutex_	um, they arent and thats fud, sorry but it is, and you know it.	Jun 15 13:44
stevendh	oiaohm: indeed, otherwise we wouldn't need certification of electrical devices	Jun 15 13:44
_Mutex_	sorry who manufactures the xbox ?	Jun 15 13:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] oh, good Lord. #ie7 is actually worse to use than #ie6. horrible, horrible.		Jun 15 13:45
_Mutex_	then dont use it :)	Jun 15 13:46
oiaohm	The powersupply was coming from china before the mess. Don't know where it is coming from now.	Jun 15 13:46
_Mutex_	ahh, so its not MS after all, and its still the fault of the houses power circuit, no question, say what you like you know its right, (or should, if you decide to think for a second). and clear away the MS veil of hate.	Jun 15 13:47
oiaohm	You are trying to say single point.	Jun 15 13:48
_Mutex_	I i guess china putting poison into baby formula, killing LOTS of babies is OK because its not MS right :)	Jun 15 13:48
oiaohm	Remember I said MS was not alone with this happening.	Jun 15 13:48
_Mutex_	not alone, not connected at all,	Jun 15 13:49
oiaohm	Its happened to cisco systems and others.	Jun 15 13:49
oiaohm	Difference is there quality control systems picked up the alteration to design.	Jun 15 13:49
oiaohm	Random sampling of imports.	Jun 15 13:49
_Mutex_	MS designed a product, to standards, it was built by a third party in china, but after all that, its the house wiring and fuse/cct breaker at fault. simple as that againend of story.	Jun 15 13:50
stevendh	if ms is innocent about the burning house, shouldn't the case have been dismissed or been won by ms? (assuming it's not too early to tell)	Jun 15 13:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Corporation Joins Hand with the Pharmaceutical Cartel < http://ping.fm/YJeNX >		Jun 15 13:50
oiaohm	Problem here is the over heat of powersupply it self was possiable to burn house down.	Jun 15 13:50
_Mutex_	does not matter, even IF it was faulty, IT does not matter, things short all the time, but houses dont burn down every time, unless the power circuit fails,	Jun 15 13:50
_Mutex_	No it wasnt, it does not work that way,	Jun 15 13:51
stevendh	ianal...	Jun 15 13:51
oiaohm	There were a lot of people doing a lot of things to cool there defective powersupply units.	Jun 15 13:51
oiaohm	The question for MS is why so lack on QC on importered items.	Jun 15 13:52
_Mutex_	also regardless, if a product gets that hot , they will fail, and "fuse" themselves, again, when something fuses it does so fail safe, (you cant short a fuse, they fail open circuit), get a book on basic electricity, then come see me.	Jun 15 13:52
_Mutex_	your way over your depth here its clear	Jun 15 13:52
oiaohm	It was overheating pulling normal power _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:52
stevendh	but _Mutex_, by your reasoning, i could sell a short circuit as being some ultimate entertaining device, and blame the users for their burned-down homes	Jun 15 13:52
MinceR	m$ does QC? :>	Jun 15 13:52
_Mutex_	off the opt of your head what is the equasion for power ?	Jun 15 13:52
oiaohm	The powersupply did not have to short out to light something.	Jun 15 13:53
_Mutex_	MS is not responsible for the QC for a product they do not manufacture,	Jun 15 13:53
oiaohm	Just by luck matterials for it to light them were not near it.	Jun 15 13:53
MinceR	_Mutex_: one of them is P=U*I :>	Jun 15 13:53
_Mutex_	guess what, the company that manufactures it is.	Jun 15 13:53
_Mutex_	close, no cigar.	Jun 15 13:53
_Mutex_	U whats U ??	Jun 15 13:53
oiaohm	As a importer you are resonsable for the products you import _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:53
stevendh	uranium!	Jun 15 13:54
_Mutex_	P = Isquaredr	Jun 15 13:54
stevendh	oiaohm: i'd second that	Jun 15 13:54
_Mutex_	or P=iv	Jun 15 13:54
oiaohm	The question before the judge was is MS libible and how much.	Jun 15 13:54
_Mutex_	you can transpose to get the rest	Jun 15 13:54
oiaohm	MS might have only be responsable to replace the xbox.	Jun 15 13:54
oiaohm	And what it directly damaged.	Jun 15 13:54
oiaohm	That is why its both.	Jun 15 13:55
_Mutex_	one dont get it, do you, its sad, your not doing yourself any favors	Jun 15 13:55
_Mutex_	its not both, never was never will be, as much as you would like to blame your beloved MS	Jun 15 13:55
oiaohm	Something that gets to around 400 C out case still pulling normal power.	Jun 15 13:55
oiaohm	Would you call that right _Mutex_	Jun 15 13:55
oiaohm	The termal cut off switch was missing. that should have stoped that.	Jun 15 13:56
_Mutex_	that cant happen solder melts at much lower temperature, and the cct would fail, again by going open circuit, try again	Jun 15 13:56
oiaohm	What reason could you get that high and not melt solder.	Jun 15 13:57
oiaohm	That what is hot is what is cooling it.	Jun 15 13:58
oiaohm	Record is 600 C on a cermic heat sink on a video card by Abit and it does not melt the card.	Jun 15 13:59
_Mutex_	you cant, you cant change the melting point of something, unless you have some amazing way to change phisics	Jun 15 13:59
_Mutex_	sure, like a really believe you :)	Jun 15 13:59
oiaohm	Its a heat pump.	Jun 15 14:00
oiaohm	So the board itself is not upto that temp.	Jun 15 14:00
_Mutex_	go away, read a book, find out about electricity, work out how a fuse works, (they are not hard) and come back when your able to engage in more than fud,	Jun 15 14:00
_Mutex_	you mean a peliter effect device,	Jun 15 14:00
_Mutex_	I know about them too,	Jun 15 14:00
_Mutex_	usually their Max Tc and delta C is around 250deg C	Jun 15 14:01
stevendh	... nobody's found anything in the press about the conclusion of this lawsuit?	Jun 15 14:03
_Mutex_	it would have been thrown out, without a doubt.	Jun 15 14:03
stevendh	yes	Jun 15 14:04
stevendh	excuse me, i misread you	Jun 15 14:04
stevendh	isn't their an easy way to look this up?	Jun 15 14:05
stevendh	website of the court maybe?	Jun 15 14:05
_Mutex_	please do	Jun 15 14:05
MinceR	_Mutex_: protip: there are multiple equations for power	Jun 15 14:07
oiaohm	I know how fuses work _Mutex_. If the powersupply had been built by design it had everything over spec well and truly over spec. Just remove a few parts here and there and some of those over spec design selections come back and bite.	Jun 15 14:07
_Mutex_	the report says, (and accuractly) the WIRING get hot, not the xbox, if wiring gets hot, you have too many loads on it, and if you have too many loads on it, the circuit breaker should trip, but again you know that	Jun 15 14:07
_Mutex_	Well if you do know, why are you saying things you know to be incorrect ?	Jun 15 14:07
_Mutex_	clearly you actually dont know how a fuse works ,,, sorry, I know you said you did, but	Jun 15 14:08
_Mutex_	so what type of fuse do you think it was a HRC or SB ?	Jun 15 14:09
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.114.14.136.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 14:10
_Mutex_	and why didnt the ground loop current circuit trip if there was a fault in the equipment, after all thats what its designed to do, and I believe they are compulsory in houses in the US	Jun 15 14:10
oiaohm	High Rupting Capacity and slow blow.	Jun 15 14:10
_Mutex_	yay, horay google	Jun 15 14:11
_Mutex_	ok you know what a thermister is ?	Jun 15 14:12
_Mutex_	you have to have them in like everything, expecially wall warts (plug pacs)	Jun 15 14:12
ThistleWeb	wall warts? that conjures an image	Jun 15 14:13
_Mutex_	LOL	Jun 15 14:13
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_cutoff << You should mean these _Mutex_	Jun 15 14:14
fewa	Ive got one of those sheevaplugs	Jun 15 14:14
oiaohm	There is a bit of a difference between a themister and a thermal cutoff	Jun 15 14:14
_Mutex_	yes those things, they shut off the power when it get too hot,	Jun 15 14:14
_Mutex_	basically a heat fuse	Jun 15 14:15
oiaohm	thermister only changes reistance never cuts power.	Jun 15 14:15
oiaohm	You hope people don't mix them up in designs.	Jun 15 14:15
_Mutex_	yes your right, thermisters are also used for that increasing their resistance with temp, reducing current, but your right there is another device thats used everywhere that goes OC at a set temp, like a silicon bi-metallic strip	Jun 15 14:17
oiaohm	Reseting ones are bi-matallic.	Jun 15 14:19
_Mutex_	yes	Jun 15 14:19
oiaohm	Non reseting can be pure melt.	Jun 15 14:19
_Mutex_	often they can be configured to trip as well, or blow the fuse !! go figure	Jun 15 14:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Sued for Contract Violation in Asia < http://ping.fm/zE1W0 >		Jun 15 14:20
oiaohm	should stop at internal device fuse.	Jun 15 14:21
oiaohm	But there are poor designs that don't.	Jun 15 14:21
oiaohm	Worst I have found is meltwire non coated straight over power in on the device. Someone was nuts that day.	Jun 15 14:22
oiaohm	Ie it melts risks short.	Jun 15 14:22
_Mutex_	BN that was 5 years ago !!! way to be up to date !!	Jun 15 14:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @bloggerheads The Royal British Legion tell Nick Griffin he's a fucking disgrace http://is.gd/12stf		Jun 15 14:25
ThistleWeb	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8100394.stm	Jun 15 14:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] may i say that the DWP website stretches new goatses of crapitude. Dig this: http://is.gd/12uIK the best ad for PFI ever. KILL CRUSH DESTROY		Jun 15 14:30
splosion	ooh, it's red now	Jun 15 14:37
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_Mutex_	imagine getter SO worked up over someone wearing a poppy, slow news week ?? i wonder :)	Jun 15 14:43
stevendh	well, i haven't quite found an answer, but thanks for the discussion	Jun 15 14:45
stevendh	bye folks	Jun 15 14:45
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taq	hey, did you guys see that? http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/06/15/1251228/Mono-Squeezed-Into-Debian-Default-Installation	Jun 15 14:47
splosion	http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/06/15/1251228/Mono-Squeezed-Into-Debian-Default-Installation?art_pos=1	Jun 15 14:47
splosion	wtf	Jun 15 14:47
splosion	haha, I didn't see your link taq	Jun 15 14:47
taq	splosion: I won for a couple of miliseconds :-)	Jun 15 14:47
taq	now that gnote is a good alternative, a need for tomboy as dependency is stupid	Jun 15 14:48
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schestowitz	taq: indeed.	Jun 15 14:49
schestowitz	It's not over yet	Jun 15 14:49
splosion	old habits die hard, though	Jun 15 14:49
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taq	and even taking out the "dangers" bla bla bla: why the hell some @#$@#$ app need to be a dependency with a lot of other dependencies when there is a good alternative? I don't understand	Jun 15 14:50
_Mutex_	yes, you can always unscramble the egg,, but its hard.	Jun 15 14:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft Trying to Inject Money into SCO Again? < http://ping.fm/VTEHD >		Jun 15 14:50
taq	well, I understand: there's a lot of people out there working for some more things than just code, right. fuck.	Jun 15 14:50
splosion	Browsing ./ at -1 is such a pain	Jun 15 14:51
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splosion	/., even	Jun 15 14:51
_Mutex_	well you got the source code, why not do what Linus did with minux/unix and re-write each function block by block, it was good enough for the kernel, who not everything else? its not like its an uncommon practice for FOSS.	Jun 15 14:51
_Mutex_	Its how it get here after all.	Jun 15 14:51
MinceR	what's "minux"?	Jun 15 14:52
splosion	Minix. Linus used Minix's filesystem	Jun 15 14:52
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_Mutex_	the textbook micro-kernel OS that RMS and Linux used as a basis for their GNU and Linus's Linux, read Linus's famous letter	Jun 15 14:53
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splosion	yeah. Supposedly an example of an early flame war. I read the whole thread and didn't see the word "fag" anywhere. Fail.	Jun 15 14:53
_Mutex_	Ive got a doco, with RMS standing saying "we got each block of minux and repaced each part of the code block by block" as linus said in his letter.	Jun 15 14:54
MinceR	hm, looks like debian is handing m$ the gun.	Jun 15 14:55
_Mutex_	so if it can be done for the Linux kernel, (and GCC) it would be trivial to do it with mono easier in fact.	Jun 15 14:55
_Mutex_	problem solved	Jun 15 14:55
splosion	I've heard talk of people making C# play nice with gcc and doing away with Mono altogether. Does anyone know more about this?	Jun 15 14:55
twitter	Hmm, I don't see any new articles about the Kline fire. http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=kline+xbox+fire&scoring=a&hl=en&ned=us&sa=N&start=0	Jun 15 14:55
MinceR	and how does rewriting a kernel block by block result in a completely different design?	Jun 15 14:55
twitter	M$ must have crushed them.	Jun 15 14:56
_Mutex_	It absolutely DOES NOT RESULT in a different design, therefore Linux is a UNIX-like OS.	Jun 15 14:56
_Mutex_	im sure you've read up on how linux started ??	Jun 15 14:56
oiaohm	gcc cil project	Jun 15 14:56
splosion	schestowitz: "Groklaw has the derails:" a typo or an ironic statement?	Jun 15 14:56
twitter	They have buried a lot of court records, proving that the US is as corrupt as any banana republic.	Jun 15 14:57
oiaohm	Its still under way to make .net work with gcc.	Jun 15 14:57
MinceR	_Mutex_: so the terms "microkernel" and "monolithic kernel" mean nothing to you?	Jun 15 14:57
splosion	oiaohm: thanks. I'll go look it up	Jun 15 14:57
oiaohm	http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cli.html << splosion	Jun 15 14:57
splosion	merci	Jun 15 14:58
_Mutex_	im sorry, I was just going by what Linus torvalds and Richard stallman said, and wrote, take it up with them, and yes, I am aware of micro-kernel and macro-kernel and also the fight or argument between Linus and the creator of Minux regarding the merits of both,,, do you ?	Jun 15 14:58
oiaohm	c closeness to asm makes OS design simpler _Mutex_. C# OS's do exist _Mutex_	Jun 15 14:58
MinceR	i'm aware of the argument	Jun 15 14:58
_Mutex_	good im glad, so why did you ask ?	Jun 15 14:59
taq	_Mutex_: simple answer, I don't need what those packages provides. we have a lot of options without any kind of fuzzy questions and I'm really confortable with those.	Jun 15 14:59
MinceR	i thought RMS said they rewrote the userspace of unix in parts	Jun 15 14:59
_Mutex_	In the Linux Kernel "fuzzy " ??	Jun 15 14:59
taq	_Mutex_: no, not the kernel	Jun 15 14:59
_Mutex_	the doco i have said they wrote "each section" block by block,	Jun 15 15:00
MinceR	and that linus took part in tanenbaum's course and then wrote linux	Jun 15 15:00
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_Mutex_	so there were times when Minux and Linux code operated together as one OS, but upon release of Linux it contained no minux/unix code.	Jun 15 15:00
taq	oh sorry I tought you guys were talking about the last line I wrote	Jun 15 15:00
oiaohm	Linux and minix have two majorally differnet designs _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:00
_Mutex_	yes, I do know the history too.	Jun 15 15:00
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taq	not about the Linux history :-)	Jun 15 15:00
_Mutex_	sorry, you'll have to take that up with Linux, he said it, not me, and I defer to him on this, (sorrry).	Jun 15 15:01
oiaohm	Linus like monolithic design more. tanenbaum prefers microkernel.	Jun 15 15:01
_Mutex_	I know	Jun 15 15:01
MinceR	i still don't see how you get a monolithic kernel by rewriting a microkernel one block a time.	Jun 15 15:02
oiaohm	Lot of code was not cross portable.	Jun 15 15:02
_Mutex_	Linus* not linux	Jun 15 15:02
_Mutex_	I know,	Jun 15 15:02
_Mutex_	geez,	Jun 15 15:02
_Mutex_	that was 17 years ago, I too gues somethings have changed between the 2 dont you ??	Jun 15 15:02
oiaohm	Interface information linus extracted from minix.	Jun 15 15:02
_Mutex_	you arguing samantics, i dont see your point ?	Jun 15 15:03
MinceR	the gcc-cli project looks more like c/c++ -> cil bytecode	Jun 15 15:03
_Mutex_	sorry, I was just saying what is, You know, the facts as they are. we can all read and learn history	Jun 15 15:03
oiaohm	One you don't truly ever take code _Mutex_.	Jun 15 15:03
MinceR	_Mutex_: lol	Jun 15 15:04
oiaohm	gcc-cil is both ways MinceR	Jun 15 15:04
MinceR	cil bytecode -> assembly source?	Jun 15 15:04
oiaohm	Yep	Jun 15 15:04
oiaohm	as well	Jun 15 15:04
MinceR	that's nice	Jun 15 15:04
MinceR	gets around some of the patents, i guess	Jun 15 15:04
oiaohm	Other than the fact it don't work well yet.	Jun 15 15:04
MinceR	it would be nice to see all novell's work to infect the gnu/linux desktop end up being for nothing.	Jun 15 15:05
oiaohm	vala from gnome project is the better threat.	Jun 15 15:06
oiaohm	It should be ready by end of year to start porting applications way from C# to vala.	Jun 15 15:06
MinceR	sure, but that needs porting	Jun 15 15:08
oiaohm	Syntax between C# and vala is very close.	Jun 15 15:08
MinceR	compiling cil bytecode to assembly/machine code would mean all the code that relies on it can automatically be reused	Jun 15 15:08
MinceR	the other part would be fixing the class library (i've heard Windows.Forms is a problem)	Jun 15 15:09
oiaohm	It would also be like doing that to java.	Jun 15 15:09
oiaohm	Java is not the most effective even having that done.	Jun 15 15:09
_Mutex_	java is a problem, it has "issues".	Jun 15 15:09
oiaohm	Really .net only fits in the OS it was designed for.	Jun 15 15:09
_Mutex_	?? what ?? how does that work ?	Jun 15 15:10
oiaohm	java and .net have the same problem. Quite heavy wrappers to get to native.	Jun 15 15:10
oiaohm	Under linux.	Jun 15 15:10
_Mutex_	.net is a programming framework, should be OS agnostic	Jun 15 15:10
oiaohm	Windows has the advantage of being able to do native calls straight up.	Jun 15 15:11
_Mutex_	Java have a lead appronx as a wrapper	Jun 15 15:11
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oiaohm	mono has not provided that advantage for .net	Jun 15 15:11
_Mutex_	thick, heavy and inpenatrable	Jun 15 15:11
tacone	any resource about the winforms patents ?	Jun 15 15:11
_Mutex_	oiaohm, have you used mono yet at all ? or looked at it much, or read the license you get with it ?	Jun 15 15:12
MinceR	once we can run all the mono crap without infringing on any patents, we don't need to care about how heavy the wrappers are	Jun 15 15:12
MinceR	at that point suing becomes pointless.	Jun 15 15:12
oiaohm	_Mutex_: I have used mono. I know its problems.	Jun 15 15:12
MinceR	and novell will have wasted a lot of money on setting up a trap they can't use.	Jun 15 15:12
_Mutex_	yes MinceR thats right, so do a linus on it , and re-code it, you can even do it clean room style so you can help to ensure its safe. (patent wise) if you dont trust the GPL that is, (if you do trust the GPL, there is not problem).	Jun 15 15:13
oiaohm	.net is sold as a magical solve all language.	Jun 15 15:13
oiaohm	Problem is that a huge mother of a lie.	Jun 15 15:13
MinceR	we know that but the cult of mono doesn't	Jun 15 15:14
oiaohm	_Mutex_: Linux kernel has mountains of patented parts in it.	Jun 15 15:14
oiaohm	Difference is with Linux I can find out what is patented.	Jun 15 15:14
_Mutex_	Ive used it too, and java, and C C++, fortran, G (labview), forth, assembly, VS and so on, and mono is far from "that bad", its actually quite polished and usable	Jun 15 15:15
oiaohm	And what the patent restrictions are on those parts _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:15
taq	_Mutex_: but if does not MinceR need mono, why does he needs to re-code it to make sure it's safe, if there is a lot of other options of programming languages and frameworks out there?	Jun 15 15:15
_Mutex_	oiaohm, if that is the case, whats the big deal with mono then ?	Jun 15 15:15
MinceR	_Mutex_: yes, we know, it's the best thing since sliced bread, and it's also the cure to cancer and world hunger.	Jun 15 15:15
oiaohm	No information on what is and what is not patented with the restrictions _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:15
oiaohm	That is the problem with Mono.	Jun 15 15:15
MinceR	taq: i don't need it, but gnome currently depends on it, for example.	Jun 15 15:15
oiaohm	Really gnome core operates perfectly without .net	Jun 15 15:16
MinceR	taq: the community could slap novell in the face with such an evasion.	Jun 15 15:16
taq	MinceR: that's the danger.	Jun 15 15:16
_Mutex_	its certainly not the best thing since sliced bread, its simply another tool to use, and not a bad one, not perfect, but what is ? certainly not java	Jun 15 15:16
_Mutex_	or gcc	Jun 15 15:16
MinceR	also, gnome do depends on it and nobody has bothered to make a full-featured replacement to that.	Jun 15 15:16
oiaohm	mono has worse memmory usage than gcc.	Jun 15 15:16
_Mutex_	volenteer to do it MinceR,	Jun 15 15:16
MinceR	oiaohm: but is it as bad as java?	Jun 15 15:17
splosion	I use Launchy, actually. It's quite good	Jun 15 15:17
_Mutex_	not by a long shot,	Jun 15 15:17
MinceR	_Mutex_: it's not my field, i'm not sure if i can get started soon.	Jun 15 15:17
oiaohm	java uses less than mono MinceR	Jun 15 15:17
splosion	Launchy performs better than Gnome-Do on crappier machines anyway (ie machines I use)	Jun 15 15:17
_Mutex_	java has issues, scary issues,	Jun 15 15:17
MinceR	oiaohm: whoa.	Jun 15 15:17
MinceR	i rarely hear about stuff that manages to use more memory than java.	Jun 15 15:17
taq	but did you notice such kind of silly software create this dependency? not a "I can't live without them". I don't use mono so I don't use gnome do, tomboy, banshee, or something like that and I'm perfectly happy.	Jun 15 15:17
oiaohm	Mono is basically crap.	Jun 15 15:17
MinceR	splosion: i'm not talking about performance, i'm talking about functionality	Jun 15 15:18
oiaohm	Now if it worked perfect effectively might have a reason to disreguard the patent problems _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:18
taq	if some really "killer app" create the dependency, that will be a problem, but such kind of software are just ... funny.	Jun 15 15:18
MinceR	splosion: such as the way it does substring search and the files/folders plugin.	Jun 15 15:18
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MinceR	also, it isn't as slow as deskbar (which is unusable)	Jun 15 15:19
_Mutex_	and if you had a micro-kernel system you would not have the large dependency problems you have... (if you do,	Jun 15 15:19
MinceR	iirc it isn't even as slow as krunner.	Jun 15 15:19
_Mutex_	what patent problems are there with the GPLv2 ? that you refer too ?	Jun 15 15:19
_Hicham_	Hi All!	Jun 15 15:20
oiaohm	Its more the lack of transpancy _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:20
oiaohm	GPLv2 would not be a issue with transpanecy on the effected patents _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:20
MinceR	_Mutex_: i'm no lawyer, but IIRC one of the things GPLv3 added was better protection against patent-based locking of software -- including the "covenant not to sue" trick.	Jun 15 15:20
MinceR	_Mutex_: but if you are referring to the case of mono, GPLv2 is not the whole story.	Jun 15 15:21
MinceR	_Mutex_: parts of mono are licensed under MIT license, which has no patent provisions	Jun 15 15:21
oiaohm	This is why comparing mono gplv2 status to likes of Linux kernel is invalid. Linux kernel and a lot of the other projects that use GPLv2 have patent transpancy.	Jun 15 15:21
MinceR	_Mutex_: and the novell/m$ deal included a covenant not to sue suse customers for .net/mono patents.	Jun 15 15:21
MinceR	i'm not sure about the patent deal -- who holds copyright for mono could very well matter	Jun 15 15:22
MinceR	it might well be that distributing it is simply a license violation (due to missing patent license) but only m$/novell could sue for it so they can choose whom to sue.	Jun 15 15:22
oiaohm	I know the upcoming ksm that will go into Linux kernel has a vmware patent on it. That vmware has approved for gpl useage.	Jun 15 15:22
MinceR	again, i'm not a lawyer.	Jun 15 15:22
taq	"oh please I really need a dock app like the Apple one so please allow a dependency like mono on the distro" what the hell ...	Jun 15 15:22
oiaohm	Its more with mono lets stick our heads in sand and hope patent problem goes away.	Jun 15 15:23
MinceR	taq: docky is really just a side effect in gnome do, i consider the katapult-like functionality the gist -- that's the original functionality of gnome do.	Jun 15 15:23
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_Mutex_	You do know you can write applications or code using any framework, language and so on, and the code you create will not be encumbered by any of the patents within the development framework, this means you can write proprietary code using FOSS GCC, without being bound by the GPL or any other license,	Jun 15 15:23
MinceR	(it does a lot more than katapult, though)	Jun 15 15:23
taq	MinceR: but it's not a feature we can't really live without it, right?	Jun 15 15:23
MinceR	_Mutex_: well, the code won't be, but it will depend on something that does	Jun 15 15:24
oiaohm	_Mutex_: Linux kernel is truly heavily patent encumbered.	Jun 15 15:24
MinceR	_Mutex_: and code you write isn't of much use if nobody can legally get the environment it depends on.	Jun 15 15:24
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oiaohm	If you tried to change licence you would have to redo a lot of agreements _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:24
MinceR	taq: i could live without it.	Jun 15 15:24
_Mutex_	well re-write those dependicies, so they dont,	Jun 15 15:24
_Mutex_	your allowed to do that you know	Jun 15 15:24
MinceR	taq: but i'd be more relaxed if i knew that m$ couldn't make its use illegal with a declaration.	Jun 15 15:24
taq	MinceR: sure	Jun 15 15:25
_Mutex_	not if you write the code,	Jun 15 15:25
MinceR	_Mutex_: that's what we were talking about -- avoiding the mono JIT compiler and stuff like that.	Jun 15 15:25
_Mutex_	I can write code on anything, and license any way I want too.	Jun 15 15:25
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MinceR	_Mutex_: you'd still have to look out for patents.	Jun 15 15:25
oiaohm	No you cannot _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:25
oiaohm	Like RCU from the Linux kernel even the author can only release that under GPL	Jun 15 15:25
_Mutex_	sure, IF my code breaks a patent, but I dont have to look out for patents within the development framework	Jun 15 15:25
oiaohm	You do _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:26
_Mutex_	Im NOT bound by MONO patents (if they exist) if i develop code,	Jun 15 15:26
_Mutex_	No I dont,, if I do,, prove it.	Jun 15 15:26
MinceR	_Mutex_: once again, if the development framework infringes on patents you don't control, then your users might not be able to legally run your program	Jun 15 15:26
oiaohm	The program you make could be using patented parts that you used.	Jun 15 15:26
MinceR	_Mutex_: because they might not have a way to legally use the development framework.	Jun 15 15:26
_Mutex_	no they dont, gosh,	Jun 15 15:26
_Mutex_	if you are a developer you will know that is not right oiaohm	Jun 15 15:27
oiaohm	That something is a standard does not mean it is free of patents.	Jun 15 15:27
oiaohm	Sections of the base language could be patented.	Jun 15 15:27
oiaohm	Everything would be so much simpler if everything was just out in the open _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:28
_Mutex_	who mentioned standards ?" and your right, but writing my own code, is not affected by that standard, unless I write to it, or write code that breaches some patent,	Jun 15 15:28
_Mutex_	its the same with ANYTHING,	Jun 15 15:28
_Mutex_	but you know that im sure.	Jun 15 15:28
oiaohm	C# is a standard.	Jun 15 15:28
oiaohm	cil is also a standard.	Jun 15 15:28
_Mutex_	ok, whatever.	Jun 15 15:28
oiaohm	We just want to know what areas are and are not effected by patents.	Jun 15 15:29
oiaohm	With what conditions.	Jun 15 15:29
MinceR	_Mutex_: how can others run your code?	Jun 15 15:29
_Mutex_	c is not a standard then ? or RS-232, I dont see your point (and not sure if you do either).	Jun 15 15:29
oiaohm	Not what you call the most complex question.	Jun 15 15:29
oiaohm	C is a standard.	Jun 15 15:29
_Mutex_	dont ask me how people run code, if y ou dont know how to run code, what are you doing here ?	Jun 15 15:30
oiaohm	With all patent holders agreeing not to apply patents.	Jun 15 15:30
oiaohm	to anyone using the standard.	Jun 15 15:30
_Mutex_	thankyou, :)	Jun 15 15:30
oiaohm	Status known.	Jun 15 15:30
oiaohm	.net there are a lot of unknown status bits.	Jun 15 15:30
_Mutex_	there is little you do anytime that is not covered by standards, ever watch TV ???	Jun 15 15:30
MinceR	_Mutex_: how can others run your code that relies on a framework if they can't use the framework?	Jun 15 15:31
_Mutex_	you think its not a standard, and it does not mabey have patents in it ?	Jun 15 15:31
MinceR	m$ has turned "standard" into another four-letter word	Jun 15 15:31
_Mutex_	have you heard the word COMPILER,	Jun 15 15:31
MinceR	after "innovation"	Jun 15 15:31
oiaohm	TV recivers patents still apply for digiatal.	Jun 15 15:31
MinceR	_Mutex_: and how does mono use the compiler?	Jun 15 15:31
oiaohm	anlog is too old to have patents on it _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:32
_Mutex_	.net, c# and so on are NOT interpreted code, you know that, do you know what an executable binary or compiled code is.	Jun 15 15:32
splosion	If microsoft offered a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable right to use the patents it offered Novell and its customers, everything would be okay with the world. In fact if they had done that in the first place, BN probably wouldn't exist. There would be no need for it.	Jun 15 15:32
_Mutex_	does a assembled bit of code need a framework to run on ???? (A. NO ofcourse it does not)	Jun 15 15:32
oiaohm	.net travels in cil form.	Jun 15 15:32
MinceR	_Mutex_: so what is the bytecode if not "interpreted code"?	Jun 15 15:32
oiaohm	Without jit at other end code don't run _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:32
oiaohm	Or aot other end.	Jun 15 15:33
_Mutex_	sorry, im not going to sit here and explain to you the difference between interpreted language and compiled language, its quit simple, google it.	Jun 15 15:33
oiaohm	If the bytecode transfer has patents on it hello trouble.	Jun 15 15:33
MinceR	_Mutex_: if you know it then you'd know why what you said made no sense.	Jun 15 15:33
oiaohm	bytecodes can be patented.	Jun 15 15:33
oiaohm	,net only uses aot at client so it can optimise to cpu.	Jun 15 15:34
_Mutex_	byte code, do you mean the raw assembly hex or binary code, that is machine executable, or a HLL that unes an interpreter (like basic), that runs the code ? do you understand the difference ?	Jun 15 15:34
MinceR	_Mutex_: no, we rarely call native code "byte code"	Jun 15 15:35
oiaohm	If it cpu processed it gets called machine code.	Jun 15 15:35
_Mutex_	no one calls anything byte code,	Jun 15 15:35
MinceR	lol	Jun 15 15:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Não me apetece fazer mesmo nada hoje, já apresentei a PAT e já chega de emoções para hoje		Jun 15 15:35
oiaohm	byte code exists inside python.	Jun 15 15:35
oiaohm	java ...	Jun 15 15:35
oiaohm	Lot of different langauges.	Jun 15 15:36
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oiaohm	Its one of the early means to accelerate processing non processor native language.	Jun 15 15:36
_Mutex_	machine code or binary code, or hex code or machine executable code, BASIC or any interpreted language is not machine executable it requires in INTERPRETER, therefore thats why its called an interpreted code !! (go figure)	Jun 15 15:36
oiaohm	Even gcc has a internal bytecode called gimple.	Jun 15 15:36
MinceR	_Mutex_: learn how java, python and .net/mono work.	Jun 15 15:37
oiaohm	bytecodes like java's can be processed by special processor chips.	Jun 15 15:37
oiaohm	You could even design a processor chip to process cil.	Jun 15 15:37
splosion	I've heard chatter of F-Spot being ported to C++. Does anyone know if anyone is actively attempting this?	Jun 15 15:38
MinceR	oiaohm: oh, i missed the cil _front-end_ on that page. now i know. :)	Jun 15 15:38
_Mutex_	and come and see me when you understand what "byte-code" actually means :)	Jun 15 15:38
oiaohm	Really you don't _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:38
MinceR	_Mutex_: hello, i already understand what it means. the problem is that you don't.	Jun 15 15:38
_Mutex_	every software has byte-code in it.	Jun 15 15:38
_Mutex_	if you know what byte-code means.	Jun 15 15:38
MinceR	every software. yeah, right.	Jun 15 15:38
_Mutex_	ok what does it mean, ?? enlighten me	Jun 15 15:39
tacone	i'd call bytecode the maximum possible optimization and preprocessing of the code that still mantains compatibility across differents run-time deployments	Jun 15 15:39
MinceR	_Mutex_: read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bytecode	Jun 15 15:39
_Mutex_	it would not be the CPU's instruction set by any chance ??	Jun 15 15:39
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_Mutex_	thankyou, now read it	Jun 15 15:39
MinceR	normally it wouldn't.	Jun 15 15:39
oiaohm	A bytecode can be CPU instructions.	Jun 15 15:39
oiaohm	But you normal name them machine code	Jun 15 15:39
oiaohm	to avoid confusion with other usages.	Jun 15 15:39
_Mutex_	probably better to read it before y ou post the link especially as it supports exactly what im saying	Jun 15 15:39
_Mutex_	machine code is a set of instructions that for a program,	Jun 15 15:40
_Mutex_	byte code ARE THE INSTRUCTIONS.	Jun 15 15:40
tacone	bytecode is usually exact the same in any deployment: windows, mac, embedded etc	Jun 15 15:40
oiaohm	Anything bytecode you can design a CPY to process.	Jun 15 15:40
oiaohm	cpu to process.	Jun 15 15:40
_Mutex_	like LDA (load accumulator) is byte code	Jun 15 15:40
MinceR	_Mutex_: then think about how .net/mono bytecode is typically executed.	Jun 15 15:41
_Mutex_	tacone yes if its the SAME CPU instruction set yes,	Jun 15 15:41
_Mutex_	different cpu's have different instruction sets, (go figure)	Jun 15 15:41
MinceR	hint: x86 cpus typically don't support it in hw.	Jun 15 15:41
oiaohm	cil has to go threw either a aot or a jit before native hardware can run it.	Jun 15 15:41
tacone	_Mutex_: are you meaning java produces a different bytecode to be used on x86 and Arm ?	Jun 15 15:41
_Mutex_	OFOUCRSE they are, they are machine code instructions, its what programs are made of, they are the itty bitty instruction set code, that ALL software ends up as so it actually works on a computer.	Jun 15 15:42
_Mutex_	its not hard,	Jun 15 15:42
_Mutex_	its not computer science (oh wait)	Jun 15 15:42
oiaohm	cil is a middle state _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:42
tacone	i see bytecode as the thinnest layer possible which preserve cross-platform workings.	Jun 15 15:42
oiaohm	That .net uses.	Jun 15 15:42
oiaohm	Its not machine code but its still a bytecode.	Jun 15 15:42
oiaohm	No different than to generate some forms of videos using there encoders you need patents.	Jun 15 15:43
MinceR	_Mutex_: ok, give an example of a cpu that runs cil bytecode directly. we'll wait.	Jun 15 15:43
_Mutex_	its not even the lowest level, CPU have internal micro-code as well, thats the very lowest level, its just the instruction set of the CPU, no more no less, all software that runs on that CPU has to be writting using instructions that the CPU can execute, (oddly enough), otherwise IT DONT WORK (addly enought again)	Jun 15 15:43
oiaohm	Not all cpus have a interal micro-code	Jun 15 15:44
MinceR	yes, please bring up more facts that have no relevance to the discussion	Jun 15 15:44
_Mutex_	MinceR EVERY SOFTWARE COMPRISES OF INSTRUCTIONS FROM THE INSTRUCTION SET OF THE CPU, no more, no less. no different	Jun 15 15:44
oiaohm	Wrong _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:45
MinceR	wrong again	Jun 15 15:45
oiaohm	You can be using programable chips to make cpu's _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:45
_Mutex_	whatever, go read a book and get a clue, better still read the link you posted !!!	Jun 15 15:45
MinceR	lol	Jun 15 15:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ‘Our Governments Just Aren’t Engineered for Security' < http://ping.fm/u3pvi >		Jun 15 15:45
oiaohm	You can download programming for programmable chips to have something run java native.	Jun 15 15:46
oiaohm	It is a bytecode spend enough time you can design a processor to run it.	Jun 15 15:46
_Mutex_	"Bytecode is a term which has been used to denote various forms of instruction sets " from yoru own link , first line, its not hard, if you can read its quite simple.	Jun 15 15:47
oiaohm	So even if a cpu does not exist now.	Jun 15 15:47
oiaohm	a person could always make one.	Jun 15 15:47
oiaohm	This is why you argument that a CPU has to run it is so wrong.	Jun 15 15:47
Balrog	just HOW did Mono get into Debian?!?!?	Jun 15 15:47
_Mutex_	what are you talking about, you making your own propisitions and basing an argument on it, you have a different CPU you have a different instruction set, gee its really not that hard.	Jun 15 15:48
oiaohm	You design instruction set before you design cpu _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:48
oiaohm	Going the other way just makes your life hard.	Jun 15 15:48
MinceR	Balrog: that's what i want to know too.	Jun 15 15:49
Balrog	maybe read up on LLVM ...?	Jun 15 15:49
Balrog	schestowitz: you're around?	Jun 15 15:49
_Mutex_	that often happens, yes, does not change the FACT that an instruction set , is an instruction set, the low level commands the INSTRUCT the cpu what to do !!.	Jun 15 15:49
_Mutex_	as i said, its not that hard	Jun 15 15:49
oiaohm	llvm uses a instruction set that matches no cpu.	Jun 15 15:49
MinceR	_Mutex_: not all programs are distributed in that native code.	Jun 15 15:49
MinceR	_Mutex_: simple example: shell script.	Jun 15 15:49
splosion	Jo Shields has been trolling the debian mailing lists for a while about getting mono shoved into debian.	Jun 15 15:49
oiaohm	Idea that instruction set and cpu has to be inlinked is where you are screwing up _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:50
tacone	Mono is in gnome	Jun 15 15:50
tacone	the rest is pretty easy	Jun 15 15:50
_Mutex_	well DER, thats why you have different compilers for diffent CPU's, geezzz,,	Jun 15 15:50
MinceR	i thought the debian guys took free software seriously.	Jun 15 15:50
oiaohm	They don't have to be _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:50
oiaohm	instruction set can be processed by a interperter.	Jun 15 15:50
Balrog	MinceR: what about gnote? The blog was down yesterday	Jun 15 15:50
_Mutex_	no some compilers can compile to different cpus some cant	Jun 15 15:50
MinceR	Balrog: dunno	Jun 15 15:50
oiaohm	qemu is a internperter for x86 _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:50
Balrog	back up	Jun 15 15:51
oiaohm	So you can use x86 bytecode on a powerpc that is bytecode incompadbile.	Jun 15 15:51
_Mutex_	congratulations qemu	Jun 15 15:51
oiaohm	Bytecodes are not cpu linked as such.	Jun 15 15:51
oiaohm	If cpus exist optimised to run them so be it.	Jun 15 15:51
_Mutex_	wow i never knew what in interpreter was before !!!	Jun 15 15:51
_Mutex_	(sarcasm)	Jun 15 15:51
MinceR	actually sarcasm is unnecessary	Jun 15 15:52
MinceR	apparently.	Jun 15 15:52
_Mutex_	sorry, I dont know how you can say that "Bytecode is a term which has been used to denote various forms of instruction sets "	Jun 15 15:52
oiaohm	And thing cpu is a circuit made interperter	Jun 15 15:52
oiaohm	I wonder how come you don't get this.	Jun 15 15:52
oiaohm	That cpu and bytecode are not really linked.	Jun 15 15:53
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_Mutex_	sorry, mabey i dont get it because your wrong, but too stubborn to read and find out yourself, I dont know why you have trouble reading the link YOU provided.	Jun 15 15:53
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oiaohm	instruction sets are not cpu linked _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:53
_Mutex_	ok oiaohm, sure they are not	Jun 15 15:54
splosion	nice to see the mono trolls getting modded down on /.	Jun 15 15:54
oiaohm	a cpu is designed to support 1.	Jun 15 15:54
_Mutex_	really,,	Jun 15 15:54
_Mutex_	know many CPU with one instruction ?	Jun 15 15:54
oiaohm	But may bytecode exist that don't have cpu's to process.	Jun 15 15:54
_Mutex_	x86 has hundreds	Jun 15 15:54
oiaohm	bytecodes	Jun 15 15:55
MinceR	_Mutex_: maybe you don't get it because you're ignorant.	Jun 15 15:55
oiaohm	Instead depend on interperters and translators.	Jun 15 15:55
_Mutex_	instructions in its instruction set, so yes byte-codes, by definition (which you provided).	Jun 15 15:55
_Mutex_	ahh, ok	Jun 15 15:55
oiaohm	Now if the translator or interperter is not patent free it makes using the bytecode a really bugger.	Jun 15 15:56
oiaohm	bytecode is a lot broader term that what you were using _Mutex_	Jun 15 15:57
oiaohm	I guess SA somewhere. One of the professors down there stuffs up teaching bytecodes all the time.	Jun 15 15:57
_Mutex_	again, thats just straight out wrong, but anyway its ok,, I dont want to break your dilusion, you right to have your opinion, wrong as it is, its your and you stand by it. just dont say it to anyone you want to impress or how might actually know better. and dont try to prove it by providing links which confirm what ive been saying all along.	Jun 15 15:57
nicktastic	schestowitz: The last Linux Link Tech Show mentioned Boycott Novel - tllts.org	Jun 15 15:58
schestowitz	Anything positive?	Jun 15 15:58
schestowitz	Balrog: yes, I'm here	Jun 15 15:58
oiaohm	http://www.ifi.uzh.ch/~pilz/thesis/Thesis.html << That is about java bytecodes _Mutex_ particularly designed to be cpu netural.	Jun 15 16:00
oiaohm	I could pull up equal docs on .net if you hare happier with .net docs _Mutex_	Jun 15 16:00
MinceR	he wouldn't read them past the first five words anyway.	Jun 15 16:00
Balrog	schestowitz: not positive; Debian added tomboy + mono to Squeeze	Jun 15 16:01
Balrog	it's on slashdot	Jun 15 16:01
MinceR	after all, he didn't get past the 23rd word of the wikipedia article either (not counting titles and citation warning)	Jun 15 16:01
oiaohm	I could have grab the bigger one.	Jun 15 16:02
_Mutex_	is not java a virtual machine ?	Jun 15 16:02
oiaohm	So is .net _Mutex_	Jun 15 16:02
_Mutex_	instruction sets are for CPU, or even virtual CPU's, thats the power Java, and its cross platform advantage,	Jun 15 16:02
nicktastic	schestowitz: Yes, positive	Jun 15 16:02
oiaohm	virtual machine does not mean virtual cpu.	Jun 15 16:03
oiaohm	Java uses a JIT	Jun 15 16:03
oiaohm	Just in time complier.	Jun 15 16:03
oiaohm	Reprocesses the bytecode to native cpu bytecode.	Jun 15 16:03
_Mutex_	Yes, so a virtual cpu, is a CPU, or put another way is a layer, its the same as the micro-code within the cpu that is used to interprept CPU instructions (byte-code) and you know execute them. so your right,, sort of on this one	Jun 15 16:03
_Mutex_	well done, thankyou	Jun 15 16:04
oiaohm	Let not have to do this again _Mutex_	Jun 15 16:04
_Mutex_	deal :)	Jun 15 16:05
_Mutex_	and im really glad you are as good natured about it as you are, its enjoyable,, thankyou	Jun 15 16:05
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DaemonMDV	Google is investigating Bings search algorithm	Jun 15 16:15
DaemonMDV	according to the New York Post	Jun 15 16:15
_Mutex_	probably getting worried :)	Jun 15 16:16
DaemonMDV	http://www.nypost.com/seven/06142009/business/fear_grips_google_174235.htm	Jun 15 16:16
DaemonMDV	Fear Grips Google	Jun 15 16:16
nicktastic	eyeroll	Jun 15 16:16
DaemonMDV	You'd think nothing would get under the skin of search giant Google.	Jun 15 16:17
DaemonMDV	But co-founder Sergey Brin is so rattled by the launch of Microsoft's rival search engine that he has assembled a team of top engineers to work on urgent upgrades to his Web service, The Post has learned.	Jun 15 16:17
_Mutex_	wow, improved service due to competition, amazing how that works :)	Jun 15 16:17
DaemonMDV	"New search engines have come and gone in the past 10 years, but Bing seems to be of particular interest to Sergey," said one insider, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.	Jun 15 16:17
DaemonMDV	The move by Brin is unusual, as it is rare these days for the Google founders to have such hands-on involvement in day-to-day operations at the company, the source added.	Jun 15 16:17
MinceR	perhaps he bought some MSFT stock, made the "leak" and then sold it	Jun 15 16:18
schestowitz	Balrog: I know, I wrote about it.	Jun 15 16:18
MinceR	but i guess i'm jaded and cynical.	Jun 15 16:18
MinceR	hm, misquote	Jun 15 16:18
schestowitz	Balrog: I wrote about it twice. http://bit.ly/Kltkt	Jun 15 16:18
MinceR	"but i guess i'm just jaded and cynical."	Jun 15 16:19
DaemonMDV	Early statistics show Bing increasing Microsoft's market share by two percentage points, to about 11 percent -- but that the gains largely didn't come from Google or Yahoo!	Jun 15 16:19
_Mutex_	someone here jaded and cynical,, no it cant be !!! :)	Jun 15 16:19
_Mutex_	I dont believe it	Jun 15 16:19
schestowitz	nicktastic: I've downloaded it	Jun 15 16:19
*MinceR gives _Mutex_ some Not Butter.		Jun 15 16:19
schestowitz	I'll listen to it tonight	Jun 15 16:19
schestowitz	Thanks for the headsup	Jun 15 16:19
_Mutex_	"We dedicate more time and energy to search than anything else in our company" note its NOT their OS they spend their time and effort on. Odd	Jun 15 16:20
DaemonMDV	Myspace is tanking	Jun 15 16:21
DaemonMDV	speculation has it that they're about to fire half their people	Jun 15 16:21
DaemonMDV	http://www.businessinsider.com/myspace-is-in-far-worse-shape-than-its-new-executives-thought-2009-6	Jun 15 16:22
Balrog	ahh, I didn't know ...	Jun 15 16:22
Balrog	ok	Jun 15 16:22
DaemonMDV	heh	Jun 15 16:22
_Mutex_	does anyone actually use myspace anymore ?	Jun 15 16:23
_Mutex_	or ever	Jun 15 16:23
DaemonMDV	these social networking sites, great place for XSS attacks	Jun 15 16:23
DaemonMDV	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG4-Jk5dYgQ	Jun 15 16:26
DaemonMDV	Teen Arrested in Fla. Cat Killings	Jun 15 16:27
DaemonMDV	they should skin him	Jun 15 16:27
MinceR	well, everyone at a particular department dedicates more time and energy to what the department is about than anything else the company does :>	Jun 15 16:27
MinceR	that way they can claim the same about everything they do.	Jun 15 16:27
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schestowitz	_Mutex_: myspace management quit	Jun 15 16:28
schestowitz	Passing fad	Jun 15 16:29
schestowitz	Next one is Twitter	Jun 15 16:29
schestowitz	Already going down	Jun 15 16:29
schestowitz	Digg is the predecessor	Jun 15 16:29
schestowitz	Maybe Slashdot the precessors of that	Jun 15 16:29
_Mutex_	realy, thats bad, and it is a bit, and I guess its much the same as facebook,	Jun 15 16:29
MinceR	digg needs to go down too	Jun 15 16:29
schestowitz	Among more. There's also Reddit	Jun 15 16:29
_Mutex_	ahh ok,	Jun 15 16:29
schestowitz	I'll be back in 2 hours. It's sunny out.	Jun 15 16:29
_Mutex_	have fun:)	Jun 15 16:29
_Mutex_	in the sun	Jun 15 16:29
_Mutex_	2 am here, not too much sun,	Jun 15 16:29
_Mutex_	you got it all :(	Jun 15 16:30
DaemonMDV	http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2009/06/15/daily3.html	Jun 15 16:30
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DaemonMDV	unions bully Bell Helicopter	Jun 15 16:30
DaemonMDV	watch those jobs head to India	Jun 15 16:31
DaemonMDV	and if they don't, it's because Bell has government contracts and the union workers are stealing their pay increases from taxpayers	Jun 15 16:32
_Mutex_	they did that here with out airline, then our planes started to fall apart, so they brought the mainenance contracts back here, :)	Jun 15 16:32
DaemonMDV	so they know they can do better than 18% increases over the next 3 years	Jun 15 16:32
_Mutex_	sometimes quality wins over price	Jun 15 16:32
DaemonMDV	usually doesn't	Jun 15 16:32
_Mutex_	especially in fixing jet aircraft.	Jun 15 16:32
_Mutex_	usually does in fact, , but yes, sometimes does not	Jun 15 16:33
DaemonMDV	RCA televisions are crap ever since they started making them in China	Jun 15 16:33
DaemonMDV	nobody worries about durability	Jun 15 16:33
DaemonMDV	nobody cares if a TV built in Marion, Indiana lasts 30 years	Jun 15 16:33
amarsh04	back in a few, trying new kernel...	Jun 15 16:33
DaemonMDV	when the things are declared "obsolete" ever y5 years	Jun 15 16:33
DaemonMDV	if a Chinese product lasts til the industry declares it "obsolete", people figure it's good enough	Jun 15 16:34
_Mutex_	"sturdy outside case to stop fallapart, custom molded handgrips" Homer: great we'll take the carnavarlie :)	Jun 15 16:34
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DaemonMDV	at the same time, Walmart ratchets up the price so eventually the Chinese TV costs as much as the one built in Marion Indiana	Jun 15 16:35
DaemonMDV	and the Walmart and RCA/Thomson execs pocket what the workers were making	Jun 15 16:35
_Mutex_	damn you standard business practice :(	Jun 15 16:35
_Mutex_	fancy employing people and earning money ,, DAMN YOU..	Jun 15 16:36
DaemonMDV	they don't employee Americans, they export our money	Jun 15 16:36
DaemonMDV	and we get laid off	Jun 15 16:36
DaemonMDV	what's in it for 90% of the people here?	Jun 15 16:36
_Mutex_	um,,, nothing is in it.	Jun 15 16:36
DaemonMDV	they wonder why crime is going up	Jun 15 16:37
DaemonMDV	fuck, when selling drugs is the only way to make money	Jun 15 16:37
DaemonMDV	people sell some drugs	Jun 15 16:37
_Mutex_	except the massive requirement to develop your own industries once again,	Jun 15 16:37
DaemonMDV	huge surprise, huh?	Jun 15 16:37
DaemonMDV	no, the government does what the government always does	Jun 15 16:38
_Mutex_	its hard to sell drugs to people who have little or no money because they dont have a job :), unless they steal it, (as they often do).	Jun 15 16:38
DaemonMDV	hire more police and arms them with military grade weapons	Jun 15 16:38
_Mutex_	So you get to employ more police, and prison guards	Jun 15 16:38
DaemonMDV	like that will solve anything	Jun 15 16:38
DaemonMDV	exactly	Jun 15 16:38
DaemonMDV	it's not just the unemployed	Jun 15 16:38
_Mutex_	or do what the US traditionally does in these matters,	Jun 15 16:38
DaemonMDV	rich people do lots of cocaine and pot	Jun 15 16:39
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 16:39
_Mutex_	GO to war against it	Jun 15 16:39
DaemonMDV	some of the worst drug abuse goes on in gated communities	Jun 15 16:39
DaemonMDV	where the police ignore it	Jun 15 16:39
_Mutex_	unfortunately drugs, (good and bad) have been around for as long or longer than people have,	Jun 15 16:40
DaemonMDV	yeah, government doesn't care about it either	Jun 15 16:41
DaemonMDV	it's a permanent excuse to grant themselves more power	Jun 15 16:41
DaemonMDV	if it were all suddenly wiped out somehow, they'd lose a valuable excuse	Jun 15 16:41
_Mutex_	Even animals in the wild seek out drugs for a quick high !! (and its damn funny to watch) a bunch of drunk animals that have eaten fermented fruit,	Jun 15 16:42
_Mutex_	considering the amount of money the government makes of tobaccoo and alchohol its no wonder,	Jun 15 16:43
DaemonMDV	http://pageoneq.com/stories/nyc06152009.html	Jun 15 16:43
DaemonMDV	NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage	Jun 15 16:43
DaemonMDV	lmfao	Jun 15 16:43
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DaemonMDV	http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,526234,00.html	Jun 15 16:44
DaemonMDV	14-Year-Old Discovers Rare Supernova in Nearby Galaxy	Jun 15 16:44
DaemonMDV	I always had wondered what the Christians answer to the whole speed of light thing was	Jun 15 16:46
DaemonMDV	if that star is 70 million light years from here, we're watching it go supernova and collapse into a black hole 70 million years after it actually happened	Jun 15 16:46
DaemonMDV	but they claim the place is 10,000 years old and god snapped his fingers	Jun 15 16:47
nicktastic	He's testing your faith.	Jun 15 16:47
DaemonMDV	and it all appeared from nothingness :P	Jun 15 16:47
_Mutex_	christians answer to anything they cant explain "act of god"	Jun 15 16:48
DaemonMDV	you're right, God put those beams of light and radiation 10,000 light years out from Earth so we could watch something that never happened	Jun 15 16:48
DaemonMDV	and he could use the hoax to test us	Jun 15 16:48
nicktastic	Exactly	Jun 15 16:48
DaemonMDV	brilliant!	Jun 15 16:48
nicktastic	Dinosaurs never existed, either	Jun 15 16:48
nicktastic	"Did you believe in dinosaurs?" "Well, yeah, there were bones everywhere." "You dumb-ass, that's one of God's OLDEST tricks."	Jun 15 16:49
_Mutex_	in engineering ,, process 1, process 2 > Process2 > then a miracle occures > process 4 ....	Jun 15 16:49
nicktastic	"Giant flying lizards, come on.	Jun 15 16:49
nicktastic	"	Jun 15 16:49
nicktastic	(R.I.P. Bill Hicks)	Jun 15 16:49
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DaemonMDV	do I believe in dinosaurs? Yes, the Republicans in Congress are the oldest living examples	Jun 15 16:49
DaemonMDV	shhhh, they're about to ban gay marriage :P	Jun 15 16:50
DaemonMDV	again	Jun 15 16:50
DaemonMDV	just how many times can you ban something anyway?	Jun 15 16:50
_Mutex_	ofcouse if you ask the photon of light how long the trip took, it would say "what trip" or "it ended at the same moment it started". IE, NO time passed AT ALL.	Jun 15 16:50
DaemonMDV	political posturing ftw!	Jun 15 16:50
DaemonMDV	there was some crazy whacked out Catholic that wrote a book explaining a scientific conspiracy to use the LHC to make an antimatter bomb to blow up Vatican City	Jun 15 16:51
_Mutex_	funny I thought marrage was a religious thing, and government was a government thing, and that there is no connection between church and state ??	Jun 15 16:51
DaemonMDV	claiming just half a gram would do it	Jun 15 16:51
DaemonMDV	but also forget to mention how long it would take to make that much	Jun 15 16:52
DaemonMDV	or how big the storage container would be	Jun 15 16:52
DaemonMDV	it would be more practical to just nuke Vatican City	Jun 15 16:52
DaemonMDV	cause the nuclear bomb would be far smaller	Jun 15 16:52
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 16:52
_Mutex_	anit-matter bomb == nuclear bomb. (well the results are exactly the same)	Jun 15 16:52
DaemonMDV	yeah, but the antimatter bomb would have to be about 20 times the size of a conventional nuclear weapon	Jun 15 16:53
DaemonMDV	so they might as well just use the nuke	Jun 15 16:53
DaemonMDV	right?	Jun 15 16:53
_Mutex_	yes	Jun 15 16:53
Balrog	DaemonMDV: and how expensive it would be to make that much	Jun 15 16:53
DaemonMDV	I mean this hypothetical anti-Catholic cabal	Jun 15 16:53
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 16:53
_Mutex_	anti matter + matter = pure energy	Jun 15 16:53
DaemonMDV	if that was the point of building the LHC, they wouldn't do it	Jun 15 16:54
DaemonMDV	they'd just use a nuke	Jun 15 16:54
_Mutex_	matter in nuclear reaction = pure energy	Jun 15 16:54
splosion	Thermonuclear weapons are super interesting. They use a fission reaction to cause a much larger fusion reaction. Which tells you why they're so hard to build. You need a nuclear bomb to detonate a nuclear bomb.	Jun 15 16:54
DaemonMDV	Vatican City isn't huge either, it's not like it would take a huge bomb to wipe it out	Jun 15 16:54
DaemonMDV	no, the primary blast is caused by conventional explosives	Jun 15 16:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Patent terrorist Microsoft whines about patents: http://digg.com/d1tsKJ?t		Jun 15 16:55
splosion	Well yeah, it's a three-stage thing. Normal explosives put the fission reaction into motion, which then trigger the fusion.	Jun 15 16:55
_Mutex_	if you needed a nuke to detonate a nuke, you would never get it, what detonates the first nuke ? another one ,, what detonates that one ?? another one ?? and so on :)	Jun 15 16:56
DaemonMDV	yes, but it's not a nuclear explosion that causes the reaction	Jun 15 16:56
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splosion	Well, how initially do you want to get here? :P	Jun 15 16:57
_Mutex_	no its critical mass, created by using conventional explosions to push 2 bits of "stuff" together	Jun 15 16:57
DaemonMDV	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Gun-type_fission_weapon_en-labels_thin_lines.svg	Jun 15 16:57
DaemonMDV	your most basic atomic bomb	Jun 15 16:57
DaemonMDV	the one dropped on Hiroshima	Jun 15 16:57
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 16:57
splosion	_Mutex_: sure, in atomic bombs uranium or plutonium chunks are smashed together by explosives. But when they do the atoms are broken apart, not fused.	Jun 15 16:58
DaemonMDV	unfortunately it's really not safe to handle that kind of a bomb	Jun 15 16:58
DaemonMDV	because it could accidentally detonate	Jun 15 16:58
_Mutex_	you know coax cable was invented by the manhatten project (the stuff going to your telly)	Jun 15 16:58
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 16:58
splosion	neat	Jun 15 16:59
_Mutex_	actually its really really had to detonate one, it involves incredably accurate timing of the detonation charges, or it wont splode	Jun 15 16:59
_Mutex_	had == hard	Jun 15 16:59
_Mutex_	which is why they needed coax to trigger the multiple charges	Jun 15 17:00
_Mutex_	for FAT BOY (and the other one)	Jun 15 17:00
splosion	another thing that people don't understand about these weapons is that there aren't many secrets to building them. You could give a "How to build an atomic bomb" manual to, I don't know, Gambia, and they wouldn't be able to make one because they don't have the tech. if they had the tech, they'd probably already have built one	Jun 15 17:01
_Mutex_	yes, exactly, years ago here in Aus the local electronics magazine published an article on how to build your own at home !!!	Jun 15 17:02
splosion	I saw the blueprints for the UK's first atomic bomb posted on wikileaks, and people were commenting in the talk section about "ooooh, North Korea could look at this!!!" what idiots!	Jun 15 17:02
_Mutex_	getting the plutonium was the tricky bit, (as was converting your house into a custom bomb).	Jun 15 17:02
_Mutex_	its not like its rocket surgury !!	Jun 15 17:03
splosion	hahaha	Jun 15 17:03
_Mutex_	:)	Jun 15 17:03
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Toaster	Jun 15 17:04
DaemonMDV	hmmm	Jun 15 17:04
_Mutex_	not that IMO is not a bad idea, (in some places), assuming they happen to have a computer to use the S/W on	Jun 15 17:06
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_Mutex_	otherwise, not such a good idea,	Jun 15 17:06
_Mutex_	but I would south africa could probably use condom vending machines more, (giving them freedom to live).	Jun 15 17:07
DaemonMDV	yeah, AIDS is a huge problem there	Jun 15 17:07
DaemonMDV	20% infection rate I believe	Jun 15 17:07
_Mutex_	1 in 5 there have aids, the president says, "how can a virus give you a syndrome).	Jun 15 17:07
DaemonMDV	meh, HIV/AIDS	Jun 15 17:08
DaemonMDV	is that better?	Jun 15 17:08
_Mutex_	correct 1 in 5 is 20%, most families have one or more members with it, shocking.	Jun 15 17:08
DaemonMDV	I've always wanted to visit South Africa though	Jun 15 17:08
DaemonMDV	it looks beautiful	Jun 15 17:08
_Hicham_	u are the source of AIDS	Jun 15 17:09
_Hicham_	AIDS was discovered in the US	Jun 15 17:09
_Hicham_	in 1981	Jun 15 17:09
DaemonMDV	wrong	Jun 15 17:10
DaemonMDV	first death of it here was in the 50s	Jun 15 17:10
DaemonMDV	it was brought here by Haitians	Jun 15 17:10
_Hicham_	haha, as always, the media eats ur brains easily	Jun 15 17:10
DaemonMDV	the other "patient zero" was an airline steward from the UK	Jun 15 17:10
DaemonMDV	that turned out to be wrong	Jun 15 17:11
_Hicham_	that is the US	Jun 15 17:11
_Mutex_	I was saying the other day if anyone knew how it got into the human population, the answer is, some guy while making polio vaccine decided to use primate livers for the cultures (its usually cows), primate were too close the humans, and no care was taken to ensure no viruses were included, then a heap of people in africa got the polio vaccine, and contracted aids, that batch of vaccine could of gone anywhere, US, Aus anywhere, just bad luck it w	Jun 15 17:11
DaemonMDV	it originated in Africa	Jun 15 17:11
_Hicham_	no, patient zero was a gay	Jun 15 17:11
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 15 17:11
_Hicham_	from the US	Jun 15 17:11
DaemonMDV	that's a stereotype	Jun 15 17:11
DaemonMDV	probably taught by propagandists in the third world	Jun 15 17:11
_Mutex_	patient zero (not the one that came to the us) was some african who got the polio vaccine.	Jun 15 17:11
DaemonMDV	the fucking Muslims and Christians always have to look for ways to demonize gay people	Jun 15 17:12
_Hicham_	http://www.avert.org/origins.htm	Jun 15 17:12
DaemonMDV	because their own sick fucking religion always needs as many enemies as it can come up with	Jun 15 17:12
_Hicham_	go all over the net	Jun 15 17:12
_Hicham_	u will find what I am saying	Jun 15 17:12
DaemonMDV	_Hicham_: It's not intelligent (something you seem to have in common with the virus)	Jun 15 17:13
DaemonMDV	it will infect whoever's bloodstream it enters	Jun 15 17:13
_Hicham_	I know	Jun 15 17:13
_Hicham_	but u know sthg?	Jun 15 17:13
DaemonMDV	HIV does not care if you're straight	Jun 15 17:14
_Hicham_	Chimpanzes can live with HIV	Jun 15 17:14
DaemonMDV	you could catch it from a woman	Jun 15 17:14
DaemonMDV	no they can't	Jun 15 17:14
DaemonMDV	HIV is humans	Jun 15 17:14
_Hicham_	HIV can't kill champanzes	Jun 15 17:14
DaemonMDV	SIV is simian	Jun 15 17:14
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 17:14
DaemonMDV	two different viruses	Jun 15 17:14
_Hicham_	so maybe this virus was caught during bestiality sex	Jun 15 17:14
_Hicham_	that is one of the theories	Jun 15 17:15
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simian_Immunodeficiency_Virus	Jun 15 17:15
_Hicham_	viruses do not create themselves	Jun 15 17:15
DaemonMDV	_Hicham_: So I'd like to know how you can prove that a gay man did this	Jun 15 17:15
_Hicham_	they just need sthg to bring them to life	Jun 15 17:15
DaemonMDV	since you obviously can't	Jun 15 17:15
DaemonMDV	did your particular third world Information Minister tell you?	Jun 15 17:15
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 17:15
_Hicham_	no	Jun 15 17:16
_Hicham_	I analyze things in my mind	Jun 15 17:16
_Hicham_	not like u	Jun 15 17:16
_Hicham_	u are easily fucked by the mass media	Jun 15 17:16
DaemonMDV	so you can prove it then	Jun 15 17:16
DaemonMDV	you know exactly where it came from	Jun 15 17:16
DaemonMDV	who had it first	Jun 15 17:16
splosion	"A more controversial theory known as the OPV AIDS hypothesis suggests that the AIDS epidemic was inadvertently started in the late 1950s in the Belgian Congo by Hilary Koprowski's research into a poliomyelitis vaccine.[138][139] According to scientific consensus, this scenario is not supported by the available evidence" hrmm	Jun 15 17:16
DaemonMDV	cause I'm sure thousands of REAL scientists and doctors would love to know	Jun 15 17:16
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 17:16
_Hicham_	as I told u, nothing can create itself	Jun 15 17:17
_Hicham_	this is one of the basic principles of physics	Jun 15 17:17
_Hicham_	it is called Lavoisier's Law	Jun 15 17:18
_Hicham_	if u ever studied physics	Jun 15 17:18
DaemonMDV	so what did cause life?	Jun 15 17:18
DaemonMDV	all life?	Jun 15 17:18
splosion	Reading up on that vaccine. Turns out people in Europe got that vaccine too and didn't end up with AIDS.	Jun 15 17:18
DaemonMDV	first living cell?	Jun 15 17:18
DaemonMDV	since you can tell me	Jun 15 17:18
DaemonMDV	oh wise one	Jun 15 17:18
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 17:18
splosion	http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/aids/poliovac-hiv-aids-qa.htm Look here for more info yo	Jun 15 17:19
_Hicham_	why u want to know the genesis of life?	Jun 15 17:19
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DaemonMDV	the real one	Jun 15 17:19
DaemonMDV	none of this made up religious bullshit	Jun 15 17:19
DaemonMDV	cause that's already been debunked	Jun 15 17:19
_Hicham_	the big bang theory explain it a little bit	Jun 15 17:20
neighborlee	If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth :)	Jun 15 17:20
DaemonMDV	no, the big bang theory didn't cause life	Jun 15 17:20
DaemonMDV	it formed the universe	Jun 15 17:20
splosion	"Will HIV or HIV-like viruses grow in cell cultures like those used to produce the vaccine? No, HIV and related viruses do not grow in cultures of kidney cells like those used to produce the vaccine."	Jun 15 17:20
DaemonMDV	keep going	Jun 15 17:20
_Hicham_	since it have been proved that the big crunch has already started	Jun 15 17:20
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, and what created the bang	Jun 15 17:20
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, and what created that..	Jun 15 17:20
DaemonMDV	nothing had to	Jun 15 17:20
_Mutex_	nothing can create itseld, puts a huge damper on "EVOLUTION" :)	Jun 15 17:20
neighborlee	and that,,and that...	Jun 15 17:20
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, prove it	Jun 15 17:20
_Hicham_	no one knows the origins of life	Jun 15 17:21
neighborlee	EXactly	Jun 15 17:21
_Hicham_	we simply can't know it	Jun 15 17:21
neighborlee	:)you got it	Jun 15 17:21
_Hicham_	our minds are limited	Jun 15 17:21
neighborlee	we're..uneqiuped to answer that.	Jun 15 17:21
DaemonMDV	no, nobody witnessed it	Jun 15 17:21
DaemonMDV	and so whatever goofball story you want to say happened, happened	Jun 15 17:21
DaemonMDV	that's how religion preys on people	Jun 15 17:21
neighborlee	no	Jun 15 17:22
neighborlee	thats how fear preys	Jun 15 17:22
neighborlee	on those who are afraid to believe	Jun 15 17:22
splosion	here's an interesting fact for you, a star of mostly hydrogen will not produce much in the way of dense elements in its lifetime. To make planets and life, you need a whole series of stars to be born and blow up before there is enough material. You, me, and everybody else are made up of star dust. Pretty neat	Jun 15 17:22
_Mutex_	the "big crunch" has not started, we are expanding, faster and faster, its called "inflation".	Jun 15 17:22
_Hicham_	Religion tries to explain things	Jun 15 17:22
_Hicham_	so that all people can understand	Jun 15 17:22
DaemonMDV	there is no big crunch either	Jun 15 17:22
_Hicham_	and live in peace	Jun 15 17:22
neighborlee	exactly	Jun 15 17:22
_Hicham_	there is big crunch	Jun 15 17:22
DaemonMDV	the universe is expanding faster the further it goes	Jun 15 17:22
_Mutex_	yes thats how you get heavy elements, from supernova	Jun 15 17:22
_Mutex_	inflation	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	no, it is not expanding	Jun 15 17:23
DaemonMDV	it will never stop expanding	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	it is shrinking	Jun 15 17:23
DaemonMDV	but there is a finite amount of matter	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	it have been proved	Jun 15 17:23
DaemonMDV	it's not shrinking	Jun 15 17:23
DaemonMDV	it's still expanding	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	it is	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	I seen it on a documentary	Jun 15 17:23
_Mutex_	there is not enough mass in the universe to create a big crunsh, and not its expanding, faster and faster,	Jun 15 17:23
_Mutex_	well speed of light fast anyway	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	how do u define matter?	Jun 15 17:23
DaemonMDV	stellar drift will eventually cause the stars to not be visible from any planet	Jun 15 17:23
_Hicham_	what is matter?	Jun 15 17:24
_Hicham_	how do u define it?	Jun 15 17:24
DaemonMDV	but thats billions of years from now	Jun 15 17:24
_Mutex_	its generally defined as anything with mass,	Jun 15 17:24
splosion	_Hicham_: you mean all that stuff in the periodic table of elements? We can define that stuff pretty well, actually	Jun 15 17:24
_Hicham_	what is mass?	Jun 15 17:24
_Hicham_	the stuff is the periodic table of elements is only 4% of the universe	Jun 15 17:25
_Mutex_	get a hammer and hit yourself on the head, and you will feel exactly what mass it	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	and even less	Jun 15 17:25
neighborlee	_Hicham_, we dont know yet	Jun 15 17:25
_Mutex_	its stuff	Jun 15 17:25
neighborlee	_Hicham_, what gives things mass	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	_Mutex_ : u are talking intuitively	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	not from a physical point of view	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	intuition is killing u	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	us	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	intuition can be misleading	Jun 15 17:25
_Mutex_	physics is an intuative science (to a degree),	Jun 15 17:25
_Hicham_	no	Jun 15 17:26
_Mutex_	yes it can	Jun 15 17:26
_Hicham_	it is not	Jun 15 17:26
splosion	So dark energy and dark matter, huh? We don't know what that stuff is, not concretely, but people are attempting to find out. That's science for ya, tsk	Jun 15 17:26
_Hicham_	quantum physics are not intuitive	Jun 15 17:26
neighborlee	splosion, exactly	Jun 15 17:26
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_Mutex_	we dont know very much about dark matter or dark energy at all,	Jun 15 17:26
_Hicham_	yes, what is dark matter and dark energy?	Jun 15 17:26
_Hicham_	so, we don't know how much energy is there in the universe	Jun 15 17:27
mtnd3w	hello all	Jun 15 17:27
_Mutex_	but because we dont know much about them, does not make them any less real, they form past of the "standard model"	Jun 15 17:27
_Hicham_	there is some huge gamma rays out there	Jun 15 17:27
mtnd3w	did anyone get a chance to read this: "Mono Part of Debian's Default Desktop Install?" http://www.osnews.com/story/21660/Mono_Part_of_Debian_s_Default_Desktop_Install_	Jun 15 17:27
_Mutex_	we know how much energy, we just dont know what it is !!	Jun 15 17:27
neighborlee	yes GRB we hope we dont have to deal with anytime soon ;)	Jun 15 17:27
_Hicham_	_Mutex_ : no we don't	Jun 15 17:27
_Hicham_	we can't know how much energy	Jun 15 17:28
_Hicham_	energy is a vague concept	Jun 15 17:28
_Hicham_	there is a lot of forms of energy	Jun 15 17:28
_Hicham_	some knowns, some not	Jun 15 17:28
neighborlee	_Hicham_, except to those that think they know ev erything ;))	Jun 15 17:28
neighborlee	_Hicham_, to those whom science is a 'religion' ;))	Jun 15 17:28
_Hicham_	like Mr DaemonMDV	Jun 15 17:28
neighborlee	:)	Jun 15 17:28
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV is a big scientist	Jun 15 17:28
_Hicham_	that is why we should listen to him	Jun 15 17:29
_Mutex_	we can because we can estimate it, can calculate (approcimately) the energy and mass from background radiation from the big bang, the size and age of the universe, and its rate of expansion	Jun 15 17:29
_Mutex_	and by the rate of plantary orbits and so on (how they worked out dark matter in the first place)	Jun 15 17:29
_Mutex_	you and me are "dark matter"	Jun 15 17:29
_Mutex_	we dont emit light	Jun 15 17:29
_Hicham_	that is not dark matter	Jun 15 17:29
_Mutex_	yes it is :)	Jun 15 17:29
_Hicham_	u r not understanding the concept	Jun 15 17:30
_Hicham_	dark matter is a form of matter that is not formed by atoms	Jun 15 17:30
_Hicham_	that is dark matter	Jun 15 17:30
_Hicham_	dark matter doesn't exist yet on the periodic table	Jun 15 17:30
mtnd3w	"Josselin Mouette has made Tomboy a dependency for GNOME on Debian Squeeze, which means that Mono is now part of GNOME for Debian Squeeze as well."	Jun 15 17:30
_Hicham_	me and you exist on the periodic table	Jun 15 17:31
_Mutex_	that is "dark" such as rocks, people, trees, and so on..	Jun 15 17:31
_Mutex_	nor does "normal matter"	Jun 15 17:31
neighborlee	In astronomy and cosmology, dark matter is hypothetical matter.	Jun 15 17:31
splosion	mtnd3w: yeah, we heard about that	Jun 15 17:31
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV is not dark, because there is a light coming from his ass	Jun 15 17:31
_Hicham_	his ass is so big from continuous fucking	Jun 15 17:31
_Mutex_	LOL	Jun 15 17:31
_Hicham_	he is being fucked day and night	Jun 15 17:31
*splosion rolleyes		Jun 15 17:31
DaemonMDV	yeah, probably not so much	Jun 15 17:32
neighborlee	mtnd3w, doesnt really matter.< nasty pun totally accidental>..when all other<most> distros are removing mono they will likely have to comply ;)	Jun 15 17:32
_Hicham_	dark is a concept that was created to explain some unexplainable things	Jun 15 17:33
_Hicham_	it reminds me of Plank's Desperate Theory	Jun 15 17:33
_Hicham_	back in early 1900	Jun 15 17:33
_Mutex_	like the plank constant, that was desperate ? yet there it is, still in use, (must be right)	Jun 15 17:34
_Hicham_	it is not the constant	Jun 15 17:34
_Mutex_	and is fundamental to quantum physics	Jun 15 17:34
neighborlee	_Hicham_, yup	Jun 15 17:34
_Mutex_	its a length	Jun 15 17:34
_Mutex_	of constant size	Jun 15 17:34
_Hicham_	i am talking about the theory	Jun 15 17:35
_Hicham_	that the energy transfer is not continuous	Jun 15 17:35
_Mutex_	like 1inch is a constant, (ie it does not change)	Jun 15 17:35
mtnd3w	neighborlee: it seems like a small amount of the Debian community is pushing Mono?	Jun 15 17:35
_Hicham_	that is the Desperate Theory	Jun 15 17:35
splosion	mtnd3w: yup. It's pretty much the same across the board for that	Jun 15 17:35
neighborlee	mtnd3w, must be small..I remmeber the debian ML when JO was pushing it, and he was getting alot of push back, as referring him to debian legal	Jun 15 17:35
_Mutex_	yes without plank's constant, TV or radio would not work (or light globes) or well matter or anything for that matter (:D) I know !!!	Jun 15 17:37
_Hicham_	Einstein was partially against quantum physics	Jun 15 17:38
_Mutex_	yes without planks constant, E =mc2 would not be possible,	Jun 15 17:39
_Mutex_	yet*	Jun 15 17:39
_Hicham_	he didn't agree with the probalistic theory	Jun 15 17:39
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_Hicham_	for him, everything can be determined in advance	Jun 15 17:39
_Hicham_	if we have enough data	Jun 15 17:39
splosion	People fought quantum mechanics, just as people fought against Cantor and Newton	Jun 15 17:40
_Mutex_	luckly those at CERN and the LHC know about it, (and use it to do their work, LHC would not be possible without it).	Jun 15 17:40
_Mutex_	in fact the PHOTOELECTRIC EFFECT that gave einstean his nobel price is based on teh plank's constant !!	Jun 15 17:41
_Mutex_	so there !!	Jun 15 17:41
_Mutex_	*pokes out tongue	Jun 15 17:41
_Hicham_	he wasn't against that	Jun 15 17:41
_Hicham_	as I told u	Jun 15 17:41
splosion	he was against Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle, right?	Jun 15 17:42
_Hicham_	right	Jun 15 17:42
_Hicham_	very right	Jun 15 17:42
_Mutex_	people also fought against the earth being round too, does not make them right	Jun 15 17:43
_Hicham_	Heisenberg's Principle brought a lot of overhead to physicists	Jun 15 17:43
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splosion	I never really understood that principle. For the maths I do, my equations always work both ways. Trying to visualise the uncertainty principle makes my brain asplode	Jun 15 17:43
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_Mutex_	heisenberg's uncertaintly principle is probabilistic, it just states if you measure something you change it	Jun 15 17:43
_Hicham_	splosion : that is what i am talking about	Jun 15 17:43
_Hicham_	_Mutex_ : unfortunately it is not that	Jun 15 17:44
_Hicham_	u didn't read the Principle well	Jun 15 17:44
_Mutex_	yes it is	Jun 15 17:44
_Mutex_	I didnt have too,	Jun 15 17:44
_Hicham_	it says : u can't mesure speed and position at the same time with the certitude u want	Jun 15 17:45
_Mutex_	its the process of observation that can effect the result, if you put a thomometer into water, that thomometer will change the temperature of the water, creating an uncertainty, (it was actually related to electron spin).	Jun 15 17:45
_Mutex_	yes thats right	Jun 15 17:46
_Hicham_	that principle is used in electronics too	Jun 15 17:46
_Mutex_	you can measure anything even one of those without changing it	Jun 15 17:46
_Mutex_	ofcourse it is,	Jun 15 17:46
_Hicham_	do u do electronics?	Jun 15 17:47
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_Mutex_	when you put a meter on a circuit, the meter draws some power from the circuit, changing the value you read	Jun 15 17:47
_Mutex_	you cannto measure anything sorry	Jun 15 17:47
Omar87	Hello everyone!	Jun 15 17:47
Omar87	Is Gnome Do built with Mono?	Jun 15 17:47
_Hicham_	مرحبا بالسيد عمر	Jun 15 17:48
_Mutex_	exactly :)	Jun 15 17:49
_Hicham_	نعم إن غنوم دو مبني ب مونو	Jun 15 17:49
Omar87	_Hicham_: حيا الله أخونا هشام	Jun 15 17:49
splosion	Omar87: Gnome-Do depends on "Depends: libmono-addins0.2-cil Depends: libmono-cairo2.0-cil Depends: libmono-corlib2.0-cil Depends: libmono-posix2.0-cil Depends: libmono-system2.0-cil " on my system.	Jun 15 17:49
Omar87	_Hicham_: لا حول و لا قوة إلا بالله	Jun 15 17:49
splosion	Oh and "Depends: mono-runtime"	Jun 15 17:49
_Hicham_	إياك ثم إياك أن تقوم بتثبيته على حاسوبك	Jun 15 17:49
Omar87	splosion: Alright guys, thanks for the info.	Jun 15 17:50
_Hicham_	splosion : is it Ubuntu	Jun 15 17:50
splosion	so, yes	Jun 15 17:50
splosion	aye	Jun 15 17:50
_Hicham_	I never used gnome-do	Jun 15 17:50
Omar87	I will purge it off my machine right away,	Jun 15 17:50
_Hicham_	did u install it Omar87?	Jun 15 17:50
splosion	look what happens when I apt-get install gnome-do "The following packages will be REMOVED: mononono."	Jun 15 17:51
Omar87	_Hicham_: Yeah, I never knew it was built with Mono.	Jun 15 17:51
_Hicham_	Omar87 : u have to remove the mono runtime	Jun 15 17:51
splosion	sudo apt-get autoremove --purge mono-common libmono0	Jun 15 17:51
splosion	or something similar	Jun 15 17:51
Omar87	Thanks	Jun 15 17:52
mtnd3w	sudo apt-get remove --purge libmono0 mono-common libgdiplus	Jun 15 17:54
_Hicham_	why are distros packaging it?	Jun 15 17:54
mtnd3w	there is one more package	Jun 15 17:54
_Hicham_	I really don't understand	Jun 15 17:54
_Hicham_	who is using it?	Jun 15 17:55
Omar87	lol! It's turned I probably removed it before.. :)	Jun 15 17:55
_Hicham_	what is the advantages of such bytecode?	Jun 15 17:55
splosion	mtnd3w: thanks, missed that one	Jun 15 17:55
_Hicham_	we already have Java	Jun 15 17:55
_Hicham_	and the Great Python	Jun 15 17:55
Omar87	I'm not sure when, but I'm glad it's not on my machin anyway.	Jun 15 17:55
Omar87	Python ownz. ;)	Jun 15 17:56
Omar87	By the way guys, there's this amazing app. called Tonido.	Jun 15 17:56
Omar87	You gotta check it out: www.tonido.com	Jun 15 17:56
splosion	I submit perfectly awesome scoops to slashdot, they get modded red for awesome, and then they don't get posted on the main page. Fuck you, slashdot. Rarrrrr	Jun 15 17:56
_Mutex_	got a link splosion, Ill read it :)	Jun 15 17:57
splosion	http://slashdot.org/submission/1019927/IP-protections-for-climate-change	Jun 15 17:58
splosion	seems pretty important to me	Jun 15 17:58
splosion	Intellectual property vs saving the world. Guess who wins	Jun 15 17:59
_Mutex_	the heading sounds good allready	Jun 15 17:59
_Mutex_	u moogsynth ??	Jun 15 18:00
_Mutex_	I have not seen one of them for years :)	Jun 15 18:00
splosion	I like the sound :)	Jun 15 18:00
_Mutex_	yes, they were so popular once upon a time,	Jun 15 18:00
_Hicham_	Intellectual property is a basic right	Jun 15 18:01
neighborlee	splosion, hmm Ive not heard of that..and I do read and watch msnbc regularly..ok well reading should have covered that, who knows for sure about TV news LOL ;)	Jun 15 18:01
neighborlee	splosion, I guess if warming per se doesn't get us..the magnetic field 10% reduction will :))	Jun 15 18:01
neighborlee	or a stray GRB maybe...too bad nasa wasn't funded more heavily all these years ;)	Jun 15 18:02
splosion	well, green technology patents in the US at least are held by the oil companies. Mostly, anyway. It gives these folks carte-blanche ability to shoot down proposals to use stuff that might harm their profits	Jun 15 18:04
_Mutex_	yes, we lose our magnetic shield (field) we are toast (literaly).	Jun 15 18:04
splosion	pfffft. Bitches don't know bout ma farriday cage	Jun 15 18:05
neighborlee	splosion, magine that ;(	Jun 15 18:05
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_Mutex_	they are great for stoping radio, not too good with high energy particles. plus its a touch hard to put one around the earth	Jun 15 18:05
splosion	shows how much I know about the subject, then :)	Jun 15 18:06
splosion	ignorance will be my shield	Jun 15 18:06
_Mutex_	its always worked for me :)	Jun 15 18:06
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splosion	Putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalala" is the bets way to solve all ills	Jun 15 18:07
neighborlee	;)	Jun 15 18:08
_Mutex_	the big problem is the removing of the atmosphere, making breathing a chore	Jun 15 18:08
_Mutex_	LOL	Jun 15 18:08
neighborlee	:)	Jun 15 18:09
splosion	tonido looks pretty neat, actually. I might experiment with it	Jun 15 18:09
DaemonMDV	hmmm, my mp3 player came in the mail	Jun 15 18:12
splosion	what is it?	Jun 15 18:12
DaemonMDV	uh oh	Jun 15 18:13
DaemonMDV	I don't think Mandriva sees it	Jun 15 18:13
DaemonMDV	hmmmm	Jun 15 18:14
DaemonMDV	Banshee does	Jun 15 18:14
DaemonMDV	what's up with that?	Jun 15 18:15
splosion	mtp?	Jun 15 18:15
DaemonMDV	yeah	Jun 15 18:15
splosion	Bummer	Jun 15 18:15
DaemonMDV	so Rhythmbox and Banshee see it	Jun 15 18:16
DaemonMDV	but I can't mount it as a file system?	Jun 15 18:16
splosion	it's possible for some devices	Jun 15 18:16
splosion	I managed to sort-of do it using fuse	Jun 15 18:16
DaemonMDV	there's a hack to get it to do MSC mode	Jun 15 18:16
DaemonMDV	but I don't know that it would be worth it	Jun 15 18:17
DaemonMDV	should I?	Jun 15 18:17
splosion	Install mtpfs first, see if that helps	Jun 15 18:17
DaemonMDV	installing	Jun 15 18:18
DaemonMDV	done	Jun 15 18:18
DaemonMDV	now what?	Jun 15 18:18
DaemonMDV	unplug it/plug it in?	Jun 15 18:18
splosion	yeah	Jun 15 18:18
splosion	you might get lucky!	Jun 15 18:18
DaemonMDV	nope	Jun 15 18:19
DaemonMDV	it did manage to crash Banshee though	Jun 15 18:20
*DaemonMDV claps		Jun 15 18:20
DaemonMDV	hehe	Jun 15 18:20
splosion	nasty	Jun 15 18:20
splosion	You'll need to fuser it. But I can't remember what the hell I did to get it to work	Jun 15 18:20
splosion	man fuser. good luck	Jun 15 18:21
*DaemonMDV has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Jun 15 18:21
splosion	it killed it his irc client too	Jun 15 18:21
*neonfloss (n=neon@66.212.183.50) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 18:24
*tacone (n=Adium@151.80.137.236) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 18:26
*DaemonMDV (n=none@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 18:31
DaemonMDV	trying to upgrade the firmware with my XP system	Jun 15 18:31
DaemonMDV	it recognizes it	Jun 15 18:31
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 18:31
splosion	sucks to be you	Jun 15 18:32
DaemonMDV	I'll put it in MSC mode if I can't figure this out	Jun 15 18:33
splosion	blame microsoft for making a shitty media protocol (presumably only to ensure that Zunes won't work on Macs, but, what are Mac users going to do? ditch their Macs or buy an iPod?)	Jun 15 18:33
DaemonMDV	well, ever since I install mtpfs, nothing can see it and it crashes banshee	Jun 15 18:36
DaemonMDV	even after I removed it	Jun 15 18:36
MinceR	who cares? they're screwed either way	Jun 15 18:36
DaemonMDV	so mtpfs fucked something up	Jun 15 18:37
splosion	hrmm, that's odd	Jun 15 18:37
DaemonMDV	Rhythmbox can still see it	Jun 15 18:37
DaemonMDV	maybe if I delete Banshee's config folder?	Jun 15 18:37
splosion	<DaemonMDV> maybe if I delete Banshee	Jun 15 18:38
splosion	fixt	Jun 15 18:38
splosion	but srsly, that might help	Jun 15 18:38
balzac	The banshee has mono	Jun 15 18:39
DaemonMDV	so?	Jun 15 18:39
balzac	right, you already have mono and microsoft	Jun 15 18:40
splosion	here we go again	Jun 15 18:40
balzac	GNU Rules!	Jun 15 18:40
DaemonMDV	ahhh	Jun 15 18:40
DaemonMDV	that worked	Jun 15 18:40
DaemonMDV	Banshee sees it again	Jun 15 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Can anybody recommend me an email client (GUI) that can handle large imap email boxes (150k msg) with low mem footprint for gnome? !linux		Jun 15 18:40
schestowitz	===	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	Security experts have discovered two novel forms of Mac OS X malware.	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	OSX/Tored-A - an updated version of the Mac OS Tored worm - and a	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	Trojan called OSX/Jahlav-C were both found on popular pornographic	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	websites.	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	Users logging on to these sites are asked to download a "missing Video	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	ActiveX Object" but are sent a virus payload instead.	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8096822.stm	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	- unquote -	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	'Experts say', What a load of bollix, you have to go to a porn site	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	and download and install an ' ActiveX Object' in order to catch this	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	malware.	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	==	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	A	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	ActiveX?	Jun 15 18:42
balzac	More than anything else, I think many Microsoft users would benefit from a good cry.	Jun 15 18:42
splosion	there's a bunch of apps that should be able to read the device	Jun 15 18:42
schestowitz	Whose flaw is it anyway?	Jun 15 18:42
trmanco	http://hacks.mozilla.org/2009/06/open-video-codecs-and-quality/	Jun 15 18:42
DaemonMDV	swchestowitz: It's cause Apple never updates their JAVA	Jun 15 18:42
DaemonMDV	those issues were been fixed back in December	Jun 15 18:42
DaemonMDV	for Windows and Linux and FreeBSD	Jun 15 18:42
DaemonMDV	but Apple still hasn't fixed them	Jun 15 18:42
DaemonMDV	serves them right	Jun 15 18:43
balzac	well, that's what happens when you don't keep the buffet fresh and the sneeze-guard in place	Jun 15 18:44
DaemonMDV	exactly	Jun 15 18:44
DaemonMDV	Sun Java nad Iced Tea users are quite safe	Jun 15 18:44
DaemonMDV	*and	Jun 15 18:44
DaemonMDV	from this particular problem at least	Jun 15 18:44
DaemonMDV	Mac OS is wide open	Jun 15 18:44
balzac	But if Mac OS has security problems...	Jun 15 18:45
DaemonMDV	it doesn't	Jun 15 18:45
balzac	MS Windows is more wide open than a whore on sunday!	Jun 15 18:45
DaemonMDV	read Apple's propaganda	Jun 15 18:46
balzac	heheh	Jun 15 18:46
DaemonMDV	it's stright from God's lips to your ears	Jun 15 18:46
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 18:46
DaemonMDV	yeah, but even Windows users are safe from this one	Jun 15 18:46
DaemonMDV	and Mac OS is not	Jun 15 18:46
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 18:46
balzac	wow, windows users are safe from a Mac vulnerability.	Jun 15 18:46
DaemonMDV	it's not a Mac vulnerability	Jun 15 18:47
DaemonMDV	it's a Java vulnerability	Jun 15 18:47
balzac	who would have thought a hack would be platform specific with two platforms so different?	Jun 15 18:47
balzac	oh	Jun 15 18:47
DaemonMDV	it's not platform specific	Jun 15 18:47
DaemonMDV	the same issue exists in normal Java from before December 2008	Jun 15 18:47
DaemonMDV	else the exploit works on Linux and Windows too	Jun 15 18:47
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 18:48
balzac	well, windows users are naked, but luckily their java beans are covered	Jun 15 18:48
DaemonMDV	the issue that is at hand is that Apple forked Java to use as part of their system	Jun 15 18:48
balzac	meanwhile mac is mostly secure, but they've left their java beans hanging in the breeze	Jun 15 18:48
DaemonMDV	and never patched over those bugs	Jun 15 18:48
DaemonMDV	like Sun did	Jun 15 18:48
balzac	that's lame	Jun 15 18:49
balzac	so i wonder if virus and worm makers get paid	Jun 15 18:49
balzac	other than via spam revenue	Jun 15 18:49
balzac	like paid by commission for a project	Jun 15 18:50
balzac	from Ballmer's malware slush fund	Jun 15 18:50
DaemonMDV	Banshee cna't play files I added with Rhythmbox?	Jun 15 18:52
DaemonMDV	what the hell?	Jun 15 18:53
balzac	what do you mean "added"?	Jun 15 18:53
DaemonMDV	transferred to the device	Jun 15 18:53
balzac	what device?	Jun 15 18:53
balzac	use a file manager. most music players just make references to files in a playlist	Jun 15 18:54
DaemonMDV	hold on	Jun 15 18:55
DaemonMDV	taking screenshots	Jun 15 18:55
balzac	it's too early for me to look at vista beta screenshots	Jun 15 18:55
DaemonMDV	can't use Nautilus	Jun 15 18:55
DaemonMDV	Linux apparently doesn't understand MTP	Jun 15 18:55
balzac	what OS is this?	Jun 15 18:55
DaemonMDV	so Banshee and Rhythmbox have to use LibMTP to transfer	Jun 15 18:55
DaemonMDV	Rhythmbox appears to handle the device better than Banshee	Jun 15 18:56
DaemonMDV	Banshee sometimes sees it, sometimes not	Jun 15 18:56
DaemonMDV	usually crashes	Jun 15 18:56
*_Mutex_ has quit ("IceChat - Its what Cool People use")		Jun 15 18:57
Balrog	DaemonMDV: what player?	Jun 15 18:58
DaemonMDV	Sandisk Sansa View	Jun 15 18:59
DaemonMDV	Banshee Group has a PPA but that's for Ubuntu	Jun 15 19:01
DaemonMDV	otherwise I'd have to build Banshee 1.5 myself	Jun 15 19:01
tacone	banshee crashes very often	Jun 15 19:05
DaemonMDV	I'm requesting that Banshee 1.5 be built for Mandriva backports	Jun 15 19:06
neighborlee	yes I see that ;)	Jun 15 19:07
DaemonMDV	I'll just use Rhythmbox	Jun 15 19:11
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 19:11
DaemonMDV	it seems to work fine	Jun 15 19:11
DaemonMDV	til they get that Banshee mess sorted out	Jun 15 19:11
neighborlee	less bloat, less memory usage..you be the judge ;)	Jun 15 19:12
neighborlee	oh and no patents hmm thast a goodie too	Jun 15 19:12
neighborlee	oh said that just as sun came out ;))	Jun 15 19:12
DaemonMDV	whoa	Jun 15 19:13
DaemonMDV	the new firmware lets you use MSC	Jun 15 19:13
DaemonMDV	sweet	Jun 15 19:13
DaemonMDV	HAH!!!	Jun 15 19:13
DaemonMDV	now I can browse it in Nautilus	Jun 15 19:14
DaemonMDV	w00t!	Jun 15 19:14
DaemonMDV	I win	Jun 15 19:14
splosion	http://www.w3b.org/technik/browserwatch-firefox-enttrohnt-microsofts-internet-explorer.html	Jun 15 19:14
splosion	Firefox overtakes IE	Jun 15 19:14
DaemonMDV	now I should format it	Jun 15 19:14
DaemonMDV	files added in MTP mode can't be viewed by the computer when you're in MSC mode	Jun 15 19:15
splosion	or rather, it will do by the end of 2009 if the current four-year trend continues	Jun 15 19:16
neighborlee	splosion, nice	Jun 15 19:16
DaemonMDV	so now I don't need reverse engineered Microsoft anything	Jun 15 19:17
DaemonMDV	it's jsut drag and drop from inside Nautilus	Jun 15 19:17
splosion	42.9% (firefox 3x) vs 49.7% IE (IE 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8)	Jun 15 19:18
neighborlee	I cant stand nautilus	Jun 15 19:18
neighborlee	one of the nastiest things to grace linuxland	Jun 15 19:18
splosion	thunar ftw	Jun 15 19:18
neighborlee	yup	Jun 15 19:18
splosion	:)	Jun 15 19:18
neighborlee	I even like gentoo FM	Jun 15 19:19
neighborlee	or heck MC LOL	Jun 15 19:19
neighborlee	:)	Jun 15 19:19
neighborlee	reminds me of directoryOPUS :)	Jun 15 19:19
neighborlee	gentoo fm that is	Jun 15 19:19
*DaemonMDV likes Nautilus		Jun 15 19:19
*DaemonMDV starts singing "Ohhhh, who lives in a pineapple under the sea?"		Jun 15 19:20
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 15 19:20
*DaemonMDV as he syncs his Sansa		Jun 15 19:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Firefox nearly overtakes Internet Explorer in Germany http://bit.ly/xprbZ (via @fwenzel)		Jun 15 19:20
DaemonMDV	http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7562/screenshotx.png	Jun 15 19:21
DaemonMDV	in MSC mode it becomes just another USB memory stick	Jun 15 19:21
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 19:21
DaemonMDV	the Expansion part is the Micro SDHC card I plugged into it	Jun 15 19:21
DaemonMDV	it came with a bunch of sample music I couldn't seem to display in Nautilus or any of my players in either mode	Jun 15 19:23
DaemonMDV	formatting the device got rid of them though	Jun 15 19:23
DaemonMDV	the less reverse engineered Microsoft stuff I have to depend on within Linux is probably for the better anyway	Jun 15 19:24
DaemonMDV	so it's a good thing they officially support setting ti to MSC mode	Jun 15 19:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Gives ‘Funny Money’ (Microsoft Vouchers) to Wisconsin Schools After Committing Crimes < http://ping.fm/zcfdB >		Jun 15 19:30
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")		Jun 15 19:33
schestowitz	Nokia boycott... "MUTINY HAS BROKEN OUT among retailers in China who are boycotting Nokia's phones in protest over fines the world's largest mobile maker has slapped on them for selling outside their assigned territories." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1271204/nokia-dealer-rebellion	Jun 15 19:35
schestowitz	Tom-Tom denies joining the Apple cult < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1271656/tom-tom-denies-joining-apple-cult >	Jun 15 19:36
schestowitz	"Luis Dominguez says he used the character to begin an online relationship with 40-year-old Antonio, the son of ex-leader Mr Castro." http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/americas/8099925.stm	Jun 15 19:37
*maxstirner1 (n=user@xdsl-87-79-129-220.netcologne.de) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 19:37
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: Mandriva is in negotiations with some company called Saptech apparently	Jun 15 19:39
DaemonMDV	to ship a Mandriva netbook with LXDE as its desktop	Jun 15 19:39
schestowitz	Cool!!	Jun 15 19:39
schestowitz	URL?	Jun 15 19:39
DaemonMDV	don't have one, heard it in #mandriva	Jun 15 19:40
schestowitz	SylviaG shipped with Mandriva	Jun 15 19:40
schestowitz	* saptech (n=saptech@adsl-69-151-11-19.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) has joined #mandriva	Jun 15 19:40
DaemonMDV	I've tried LXDE, makes a great desktop for the resource usage	Jun 15 19:40
DaemonMDV	better than XFCE	Jun 15 19:40
schestowitz	<saptech> not at the moment. But i've just installed mdv-09 on my acer aspire one netbook	Jun 15 19:41
DaemonMDV	distros are turning XVFE into a "Clone of your GNOME"	Jun 15 19:41
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 19:41
DaemonMDV	*XFCE	Jun 15 19:41
schestowitz	<Saptech> mdv is working great out the box	Jun 15 19:41
schestowitz	<Saptech> well at the moment i'm using winxp	Jun 15 19:41
DaemonMDV	crap	Jun 15 19:41
DaemonMDV	did I just tune in at the wrong moment?	Jun 15 19:42
*DaemonMDV smacks himself		Jun 15 19:42
schestowitz	<DaemonMDV> Acer is fairly hostile regarding Linux	Jun 15 19:42
DaemonMDV	they are	Jun 15 19:42
DaemonMDV	they're also just generally hostile to customers though	Jun 15 19:43
schestowitz	* Saptech has quit (Success)	Jun 15 19:43
schestowitz	You drive him away	Jun 15 19:43
DaemonMDV	the "sorry, your warranty expired 5 seconds ago" type of support	Jun 15 19:43
DaemonMDV	"Buy an extension for $100?"	Jun 15 19:43
DaemonMDV	Gateway will at least help you with stuff if your warranty expires	Jun 15 19:44
DaemonMDV	Acer makes you buy an extension jsut to ask a question	Jun 15 19:44
DaemonMDV	I know Acer is Gateway's parent company but they seem to have two different tech support policies	Jun 15 19:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Fear of Microsoft Bob Hope grips Google http://bit.ly/3eUB7J		Jun 15 19:45
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.78.214) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 19:47
_Hicham_	interesting : http://live.gnome.org/ScratchPad/DotNetAndMono	Jun 15 19:47
trmanco	using claws email	Jun 15 19:48
DaemonMDV	http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/10/23/review-sansa-view-16gb/	Jun 15 19:48
DaemonMDV	that's the player I have	Jun 15 19:48
trmanco	I think I finally found a decent low mem email client	Jun 15 19:48
DaemonMDV	only 8 gigs on the device, but I popped in a 16 gigs expansion	Jun 15 19:48
DaemonMDV	should probably hold enough MP3s for me :)	Jun 15 19:49
_Hicham_	does it support ogg?	Jun 15 19:49
DaemonMDV	nope	Jun 15 19:49
DaemonMDV	WMA, MP3, MP4, Audible	Jun 15 19:49
schestowitz	Support Accountability and Transparency in Government! http://action.citizen.org/t/6693/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=26515	Jun 15 19:49
schestowitz	Card fraud probe targets 300 detectives http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/14/expenses-fraud-detectives-scotland-yard	Jun 15 19:49
DaemonMDV	Linux seems to have far better support for encoding MP3	Jun 15 19:49
DaemonMDV	so I'll probably just use that	Jun 15 19:50
DaemonMDV	FAAC is just horrendously bad when you go to play the file back with a decoder that expects the file to be strictly ISO compliant	Jun 15 19:50
DaemonMDV	so you might as well forget encoding MP4 with Linux	Jun 15 19:51
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : did u try reading an ogg files on it?	Jun 15 19:51
DaemonMDV	every review says it doesn't work	Jun 15 19:51
_Hicham_	coz a lot of players do without having it on the stickers	Jun 15 19:51
DaemonMDV	I don't know why my experience would be different	Jun 15 19:51
_Hicham_	just try	Jun 15 19:51
_Hicham_	firmwares change	Jun 15 19:51
DaemonMDV	I've read a few where the...	Jun 15 19:51
DaemonMDV	oh alright	Jun 15 19:51
*DaemonMDV goes to transcode something		Jun 15 19:51
splosion	http://www.h-online.com/open/Open-source-vs-Microsoft-further-progress-in-Switzerland--/news/113534	Jun 15 19:54
_Hicham_	schestowitz is the new Sherlock Holmes of the century	Jun 15 19:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] nuclear disarmament treaties are important. Will the US make a start? "North Korea < http://ping.fm/9hvDd >		Jun 15 19:55
splosion	_Hicham_: huh?	Jun 15 19:56
DaemonMDV	hmmm	Jun 15 19:56
_Hicham_	splosion : never mind	Jun 15 19:56
DaemonMDV	it's not playing anything I dropped into its music folder	Jun 15 19:56
*macabe (n=macabe@cpe-67-240-216-105.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 19:57
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : neither ogg or oga?	Jun 15 19:57
splosion	can your model not get the rockbox firmware, DaemonMDV ?	Jun 15 19:57
DaemonMDV	wait	Jun 15 19:57
DaemonMDV	they can't be in subfolders	Jun 15 19:58
DaemonMDV	the mp3s have to be dropped straight into the MUSIC folder	Jun 15 19:58
_Hicham_	no subfolders	Jun 15 19:58
_Hicham_	it is a general rule for all players	Jun 15 19:58
_Hicham_	u are not on Winamp	Jun 15 19:58
DaemonMDV	but then it moves them to the subfolder itself	Jun 15 19:59
DaemonMDV	and plays them	Jun 15 19:59
DaemonMDV	what the fuck?	Jun 15 19:59
DaemonMDV	and it simply deleted the Vorbis file	Jun 15 19:59
_Hicham_	wow, strange firmware	Jun 15 20:00
splosion	malware protection for sure	Jun 15 20:00
neighborlee	schestowitz, mono disinformation in mandriva forums too : http://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=93002&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150 < first post on page	Jun 15 20:00
neighborlee	gotta go for now, bbl o_0	Jun 15 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Still downloading email headers		Jun 15 20:00
_Hicham_	I heard that some players can play ogg if u rename the extension to wma	Jun 15 20:00
neighborlee	_Hicham_, its nice that FF 3.5 in fedora11> has this out of box dont know about other distros atm..out of box players too..	Jun 15 20:01
splosion	Mpeg-LA's fact sheet says, "Get the facts. ogg.vorbis32 is a virus that can destroy your player's firmware and data. To protect you, we automatically delete these files for you."	Jun 15 20:01
neighborlee	ok really GONE now	Jun 15 20:01
*amd-linux (i=54393d19@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-139efa998d3a26cb) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 20:03
DaemonMDV	it also seems to not understand id3vs tags written by Easytag	Jun 15 20:04
DaemonMDV	*id3v2	Jun 15 20:05
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Jun 15 20:05
DaemonMDV	lets switch it back to MTP and see what happens	Jun 15 20:07
DaemonMDV	I have a feeling it's doing something naughty with files I add in MSC mode	Jun 15 20:09
*macabe__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Jun 15 20:10
schestowitz	Look what comments in BN did... http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-13-008-35-OS-CY	Jun 15 20:14
DaemonMDV	maybe if I put an M3U in the folder it could parse that?	Jun 15 20:16
splosion	schestowitz: I see Jo posts examples of the death threats you promote and encourage amongst your readers :P	Jun 15 20:17
DaemonMDV	hmm, if I use MTP mode, it even throws in the cover art	Jun 15 20:17
amd-linux	I would moderate such posts away as they are an obvious try to sabotage a valid discussion	Jun 15 20:18
splosion	gets shot down for it quickly, though, I see	Jun 15 20:19
amd-linux	the comments is not okay, after all we are "only" discussiing software. This plays in the hands of those who want to riducule BN et al.	Jun 15 20:19
amd-linux	no, I mean the original comments here on BN	Jun 15 20:19
splosion	amd-linux: but why? Full-disclosure is important. Jo's just making a mountain out of a mole hill and it looks like people are smart enough to see that	Jun 15 20:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenBSD Enters "I'm a Mac/PC" Ad Campaign War http://ping.fm/EXUZ2		Jun 15 20:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oops. The link for that last item is this one: http://ping.fm/T563d and it's a satire.		Jun 15 20:20
amd-linux	IMHO, it is not helpful to alow such comments. and they do ceetainly not represent people like me or other Mono opponents	Jun 15 20:20
schestowitz	splosion: wink noted. We just never delete comments	Jun 15 20:20
splosion	I mean, if we want people to be more open, we have to be open ourselves	Jun 15 20:21
schestowitz	Hatred of censorship is costing us, assuming people are gullible enough to think any comments from any troll is "us"	Jun 15 20:21
schestowitz	amd-linux: yes, it's a problem	Jun 15 20:22
schestowitz	They use it for smears	Jun 15 20:22
splosion	wikileaks didn't back down when a troll submitted a document containing the email addresses of a bunch of sponsors. be bold!	Jun 15 20:22
schestowitz	And there is that liar "fink" we pretends I spoke to him	Jun 15 20:22
schestowitz	Crazy trolls carry the site's name and harass people	Jun 15 20:22
balzac	And that guy jo shields	Jun 15 20:22
amd-linux	twell, some people think if somebody allows such comments, they are endorsed. I do not think so, but some people might do	Jun 15 20:22
balzac	who says "f*ck you"	Jun 15 20:23
schestowitz	amd-linux: it's a tradeoff	Jun 15 20:23
schestowitz	Censorship too would be used againat us	Jun 15 20:23
balzac	then gets to post on one of the major Linux sites	Jun 15 20:23
schestowitz	I use it against Groklaw sometimes	Jun 15 20:23
schestowitz	Groklaw even deleted comments from 'trolls' like Linus Otrvalds	Jun 15 20:23
amd-linux	well, I do not plead for censorship, but a red line could be drawn when threats are involved	Jun 15 20:24
schestowitz	Yes, I know.	Jun 15 20:24
schestowitz	Like against me	Jun 15 20:24
balzac	or me	Jun 15 20:24
schestowitz	You?	Jun 15 20:24
balzac	well, sort of	Jun 15 20:25
balzac	Trojan-something from linsux.org	Jun 15 20:25
MinceR	then we might as well get rid of the trolls who pollute the channel and inhibit meaningful discussion	Jun 15 20:25
splosion	balzac: bad language is just that. not really a problem. It's just rather crude most of the time. (although sometimes it's fucking awesome.) A real problem is spreading lies. that's more the issue I think	Jun 15 20:25
balzac	it was close enough	Jun 15 20:25
balzac	yeah	Jun 15 20:25
balzac	like jo shields	Jun 15 20:25
balzac	lies, not threats in his case	Jun 15 20:25
amd-linux	what I dont get is why Mono can not go to Ubuntu Universe. That would satisfy opponents as well as proponents, no?	Jun 15 20:26
schestowitz	neighborlee: it's tracy_anne	Jun 15 20:26
schestowitz	She hates me	Jun 15 20:26
splosion	MinceR: "/ignore splosion" -- problem solved :)	Jun 15 20:26
schestowitz	And she likes Mono	Jun 15 20:26
schestowitz	So no news there	Jun 15 20:26
schestowitz	She's from LXer	Jun 15 20:26
schestowitz	One of my haters	Jun 15 20:26
MinceR	splosion: ignore makes conversations impossible to follow	Jun 15 20:26
MinceR	splosion: if someone says something, i can no longer tell if it's a response to something	Jun 15 20:27
splosion	good point	Jun 15 20:27
MinceR	i've seen someone make a complete fool out of themselves because they've ignored half the channel -- elsewhere	Jun 15 20:28
MinceR	though they've actually made a complete fool out of themselves long before	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	===	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	"Hmm. Is that good or bad. The volcano comment is not mine. I notice	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	that Jo Shields likes to take the other comment out of context and tries	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	to ignore that serious harm is coming from MS. Harm that would be dealt	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	with by the government.	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	There's a world of difference between Jo Shields' insinuation of a lynch	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	mob and the reality of calling for government intervention against	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	willful negligence and / or criminal mischief.	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	C'mon who does Redmond Jo thing he's fooling? He seems to be saying	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	it's A-OK to replace reliable, smoothly running, mission critical	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	systems with ones that fail to do the job, while knowing in advance that	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	it fails to do the job. He's seems to be further saying it's fine even	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	in cases where it harms the economy, costs people their livelihood,	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	their health or their lives. -- or puts any of the above at risk."	Jun 15 20:28
schestowitz	"I notice that "not nice" is MS code for knowing about technology."	Jun 15 20:28
splosion	you've got a list of haters as long as my leg, roy! I think that's worthy of something though :P	Jun 15 20:29
mtnd3w	What is the scope of Mono in GNU/Linux. So far it's on the Gnome DE and making it's way into other projects as well?	Jun 15 20:32
schestowitz	"Windows enthusiasts launch 'Boycott Opera' campaign - http://bit.ly/1bj1XA yeah, everybody gang up on the class weakling, that's mature" http://twitter.com/glynmoody/statuses/2178554232	Jun 15 20:34
splosion	http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/canonical-to-boost-ubuntu-usability-by-tackling-papercuts.ars mtnd3w the guy who wrote gnome-do is part of Ubuntu's super awesome design team now, so there may be many more mono things coming to an Ubuntu near you soon	Jun 15 20:35
_Hicham_	I am trying to install Windows XP in Fedora using qemu and Virtual Machine Manager, DaemonMDV, any clues?	Jun 15 20:36
_Hicham_	XP can't continue the installation	Jun 15 20:36
DaemonMDV	shrugs	Jun 15 20:36
DaemonMDV	works fine in Virtual Box	Jun 15 20:36
splosion	Boycott Opera. Hahaha	Jun 15 20:36
schestowitz	http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/06/14/The-4-Hour-Workweek "Well then, you’ll probably really love The 4-Hour Workweek, a 2007 book by Timothy Ferriss. On the other hand, if you love your job and wish you could do more of it, there’s not much here for you but a few handy email-management hints."	Jun 15 20:37
*DaemonMDV has Windows XP under Parallels		Jun 15 20:37
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : have u tried it with qemu?	Jun 15 20:37
DaemonMDV	it can run games seamlessly in Linux	Jun 15 20:37
DaemonMDV	using Windows XP as a subsystem	Jun 15 20:37
DaemonMDV	:D	Jun 15 20:37
*schestowitz has qemu		Jun 15 20:37
schestowitz	In Mand	Jun 15 20:37
_Hicham_	VirtualBox?	Jun 15 20:37
DaemonMDV	VirtualBox is the best you'll do for free	Jun 15 20:38
schestowitz	Doesn't work well for running some distros BTW	Jun 15 20:38
DaemonMDV	Parallels is not freeware	Jun 15 20:38
DaemonMDV	but damn if it doesn't work well	Jun 15 20:38
DaemonMDV	games run at nearly the speed they do in XP natively	Jun 15 20:38
DaemonMDV	most of the time anyway	Jun 15 20:38
_Hicham_	in VirtualBox?	Jun 15 20:38
splosion	Boycott Opera means Microsoft Windows still has actual fans and not just haters-of-alternative-distros	Jun 15 20:38
DaemonMDV	no, in Parallels	Jun 15 20:39
DaemonMDV	VirtualBox is next to useless for games	Jun 15 20:39
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DaemonMDV	Parallels does much better for performance	Jun 15 20:39
balzac	yeah, but it's nice for running operating systems	Jun 15 20:39
DaemonMDV	well, Parallels gives your Linux system a Windows subsystem, effectively	Jun 15 20:40
DaemonMDV	that can be invoked when all else fails	Jun 15 20:40
balzac	I'll pass on the proprietary software	Jun 15 20:40
DaemonMDV	:D	Jun 15 20:40
DaemonMDV	oh come now	Jun 15 20:40
schestowitz	wb, Carl_Rover2k12	Jun 15 20:40
balzac	DaemonMDV: please don't recommend it because I don't want to waste time on it	Jun 15 20:40
DaemonMDV	you haven't lived til you've tried IE 8 in Mandriva	Jun 15 20:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Crimes against Netscape did not endure the test of time. http://ping.fm/OpVhQ		Jun 15 20:40
balzac	feature comparison between free and proprietary apps is ok with me	Jun 15 20:40
MinceR	time for opera users to launch a Boycott micro$oft campaign.	Jun 15 20:40
schestowitz	That exists even without Opera	Jun 15 20:41
schestowitz	There are several such sites	Jun 15 20:41
schestowitz	Not active though	Jun 15 20:41
balzac	but let me know if it's proprietary so I don't waste time looking it up	Jun 15 20:41
MinceR	well, time to activate opera users	Jun 15 20:41
schestowitz	http://why.openoffice.org/why_great.html	Jun 15 20:41
schestowitz	Iraq war inquiry to be in private http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8100432.stm	Jun 15 20:41
maxstirner1	funny that isnt it	Jun 15 20:42
maxstirner1	theyd probably have to reveal the "secret advice" if it werent held in secret	Jun 15 20:42
maxstirner1	http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7752009.stm	Jun 15 20:42
schestowitz	Swine Flu Science: First Wiki, Then Publish < http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2009/06/11/swine-flu-science-first-wiki-then-publish/ >	Jun 15 20:42
maxstirner1	http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4381379.stm	Jun 15 20:42
schestowitz	maxstirner1: maybe they are embarrassed, you thinkg? "	Jun 15 20:43
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: umm, home?	Jun 15 20:43
schestowitz	Hadopi a walking zombie http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F4Nq2h&sl=auto&tl=en&history_state0= Frankreich: Netzsperren trotz Verfassungskonflikt France: Power Locks, despite constitutional conflict	Jun 15 20:43
maxstirner1	schestowitz: i think certain bits just arent for the public, unless its decades later	Jun 15 20:44
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maxstirner1	the outrage would just be too great	Jun 15 20:44
balzac	DaemonMDV: not to be prickly, but I just don't care to hear people sing the praises of proprietary apps on freenode, especially here, without being given the context that it's a proprietary app	Jun 15 20:44
maxstirner1	theres a lot of outrageous stuff in here http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/	Jun 15 20:44
maxstirner1	but it all happened a long time ago so..	Jun 15 20:44
maxstirner1	this is my favourite: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/elvis/elnix.html	Jun 15 20:44
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: can you believe there are still people who regard Wikipedia with suspicion?	Jun 15 20:45
schestowitz	StumbleUpon Jumps on the URL-Shortener Bandwagon http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/09/stumbleupon-jumps-on-the-url-shortener-bandwagon	Jun 15 20:45
schestowitz	The new fad... Twitter and silly shortners	Jun 15 20:45
schestowitz	[sorry, trmanco ]	Jun 15 20:45
trmanco	?	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	*shorteners	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	Links lose their existence	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	I hare link shortening	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	It's a two-level fault system	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	Shortener dies, say goodbye to links	Jun 15 20:46
Carl_Rover2k12	lol top hit on Google for "silly shortners" http://www.inquisitr.com/22264/url-shorteners-the-herpes-of-the-web/	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	Very stupid and short-sighed idea	Jun 15 20:46
schestowitz	I avoid tinyURL unless I can put the full URL too	Jun 15 20:47
schestowitz	Full URL is good for many reasons	Jun 15 20:47
schestowitz	Post titles	Jun 15 20:47
schestowitz	Make it easier to search	Jun 15 20:47
schestowitz	And also Web archive	Jun 15 20:47
schestowitz	tinyurl is dead link easily..	Jun 15 20:47
splosion	I think twitter should make an allowance for URLs.	Jun 15 20:47
splosion	problem solved	Jun 15 20:47
schestowitz	timbl must be flipping in his -grave- bed thinking about shorteners	Jun 15 20:48
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Jun 15 20:48
schestowitz	How long before the shortener for the shortener?	Jun 15 20:48
DaemonMDV	that's funny	Jun 15 20:49
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: do you think shorteners will do away with domains?	Jun 15 20:49
splosion	I prefer this http://hugeurl.com/	Jun 15 20:49
DaemonMDV	the player won't say "Sorry I can't play Vorbis"	Jun 15 20:49
_Hicham_	it is working now	Jun 15 20:49
DaemonMDV	it just deletes the files	Jun 15 20:49
schestowitz	Rebuilding the railway http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/economics/rebuilding-the-railway	Jun 15 20:49
_Hicham_	Windows is loading	Jun 15 20:49
DaemonMDV	and moves on to MP3s or WMAs	Jun 15 20:49
_Hicham_	had to choose generic os	Jun 15 20:49
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: how can the government rebuild a Private system without hostile takeovers?	Jun 15 20:49
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: most rails in the US are operated by very profitable freight carriers	Jun 15 20:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] What makes Microsoft's "bizniz®" unethical?: http://digg.com/d1ttdv?t		Jun 15 20:50
DaemonMDV	why exactly does it need to delete the file?	Jun 15 20:50
schestowitz	ORLY says Linux can replace Windows completely: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10264471-16.html	Jun 15 20:50
schestowitz	It's the fact that it's ORLY which makes it something	Jun 15 20:51
schestowitz	Cause ORLY doesn't care about Linux and Freedom	Jun 15 20:51
schestowitz	he's an Apple fan and SaaS	Jun 15 20:51
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_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : to prevent possible damage	Jun 15 20:53
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Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: do you know how to get Freenode to identify your username?	Jun 15 21:02
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: nvm, can you fill me in on O'Reilly's article because from what I can tell he is just messing with semantics by talking about "open data" as apposed to open code	Jun 15 21:07
splosion	http://techdirt.com/articles/20090615/1148005239.shtml Hulu are anti-American. woot	Jun 15 21:10
Carl_Rover2k12	splosion: talk about biting their hand to spite their face, Hulu is a creation of NBC	Jun 15 21:11
Carl_Rover2k12	and is hosted and administrated by Akamai	Jun 15 21:12
Carl_Rover2k12	splosion: sometimes I think the filters and bean counters can't distinguish between whats their own and who they are sent to anecdote to death	Jun 15 21:14
Carl_Rover2k12	splosion: also a 45 minute show by Hulu has four or more 2 minute ads. Thats already more than 50% of the stream dominated by advertising	Jun 15 21:16
schestowitz	ZETA to open doors to 'net zero' home http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10262842-54.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20	Jun 15 21:17
Carl_Rover2k12	splosion: well more like 15%, but that is still more then many other streamers out there	Jun 15 21:18
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: I registered my screen name like a year ago	Jun 15 21:19
schestowitz	Standard register procedure I cannot recall	Jun 15 21:19
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: did you do it commands on IRC or through a web site?	Jun 15 21:20
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: I am looking to see if their website provides help to register via IRC	Jun 15 21:21
*mtnd3w (n=mtnd3w@cpe-74-65-216-135.nyc.res.rr.com) has left #boycottnovell ("Leaving")		Jun 15 21:24
*Carl_Rover2k12 is probably ruining his standing within this community		Jun 15 21:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz OTOH, the image of using Vista was as accurate as it was icky ...		Jun 15 21:25
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: I would like to live in a partially underground home insulated with mud and concrete, that would be very efficient at keeping warmth or coolness in	Jun 15 21:25
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: I think cave people from the stone age were the greenest of civilizations	Jun 15 21:26
neighborlee	schestowitz, ah ok <mandriva forum> ..I'd not been watching those forums so I sorta surprised me I guess.. its nice to see mono not being swallowed hook line and sinker at least from users comments..- < just got back>	Jun 15 21:26
schestowitz	Blu-Ray Barely Making A Dent In Video Sales Slump http://www.paidcontent.co.uk/entry/419-blu-ray-barely-making-a-dent-in-video-sales-slump/	Jun 15 21:27
trmanco	When Zeal Becomes Zealotry: A Tawdry Tale -> I see you have seen this	Jun 15 21:27
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: no, just IRC commands	Jun 15 21:27
schestowitz	IIRC	Jun 15 21:27
schestowitz	tacone: don't feed it	Jun 15 21:30
neighborlee	hmm id heard they were making inroads	Jun 15 21:30
schestowitz	* trmanco I mean	Jun 15 21:30
neighborlee	bluray	Jun 15 21:30
schestowitz	it's also wrong	Jun 15 21:30
trmanco	I won't	Jun 15 21:30
tacone	i don't feed even myself.	Jun 15 21:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: Vista is a powerful weapon. You send it to enemy territory, give it a few days, and see combatants self-destruct in anger.		Jun 15 21:30
schestowitz	That troll was lying about having something to do with me	Jun 15 21:30
trmanco	I don't usually feed on anything	Jun 15 21:30
schestowitz	And the victim caught it and though it was true	Jun 15 21:30
schestowitz	Even though it was from a troll !!	Jun 15 21:31
trmanco	I'm more of a quiet person	Jun 15 21:31
schestowitz	tacone: you run on solar ? :-)	Jun 15 21:31
tacone	i steer away of all such unfree food and prefer to feed myself with just light. which is free.	Jun 15 21:31
Carl_Rover2k12	BNc: eurika, the EU is the US's enemy. You helped explain everything	Jun 15 21:31
tacone	i see you guessed it :)	Jun 15 21:31
trmanco	lol	Jun 15 21:31
neighborlee	well its up triple from 2008 anyway..	Jun 15 21:32
schestowitz	tacone: Must be tough in winter	Jun 15 21:32
neighborlee	http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?s=4f33f7ecd766f487b2217d6da6f9e1f1&t=86912&page=11 < at least according to here	Jun 15 21:32
tacone	yes it is. ethic is though.	Jun 15 21:32
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: BNc is an aggregator from Twitter	Jun 15 21:32
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: the "N" in Windows N is for Nuclear	Jun 15 21:33
schestowitz	Zune is the sound it makes	Jun 15 21:33
schestowitz	Apropos: CENTRALIZED OR DECENTRALIZED ENERGY? < http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2009/06/centralized-or-decentralized-energy.html >	Jun 15 21:34
schestowitz	Firefox.next peek: profiling yourself < http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2009/06/firefox-next-peek-profiling-yourself/ >	Jun 15 21:35
DaemonMDV	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/banshee/+bug/267922	Jun 15 21:35
DaemonMDV	heh	Jun 15 21:35
DaemonMDV	Banshee hangs up/crashes when pluggin in MTP-USB-Player	Jun 15 21:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tacone] i steer away of all such #unfree #food and prefer to feed myself with just #light. which is #free.		Jun 15 21:35
tacone	banshee sucks much more than people want you to believe.	Jun 15 21:35
tacone	oh, wow.	Jun 15 21:36
*schestowitz adds links to queue		Jun 15 21:36
DaemonMDV	Rhythmbox works with Microsoft's protocol flawlessly	Jun 15 21:36
DaemonMDV	and Banshee just dies	Jun 15 21:36
schestowitz	http://www.grep.be/blog/en/computer/mono_etc	Jun 15 21:36
DaemonMDV	that's odd considering Novell is so hot for Microsoft	Jun 15 21:36
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 21:36
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, hm	Jun 15 21:36
DaemonMDV	using Banshee 1.4.2	Jun 15 21:36
DaemonMDV	each release in their changelog they say they've fixed scores of MTP-related bugs	Jun 15 21:37
Carl_Rover2k12	DaemonMDV: maybe its because Novell is too busy focusing on Mono and other interloping with the OS itself	Jun 15 21:37
DaemonMDV	including the 1.5 beta	Jun 15 21:37
trmanco	http://www.grep.be/blog/en/computer/mono_etc	Jun 15 21:37
DaemonMDV	according to Wikipedia, most players are not strictly MTP compliant	Jun 15 21:37
DaemonMDV	most of them seem to have their own "dialect" of it	Jun 15 21:37
DaemonMDV	so Rhythmbox must have my player in it's list of hacks	Jun 15 21:38
DaemonMDV	and Banshee doesn't	Jun 15 21:38
trmanco	see the comments	Jun 15 21:38
trmanco	good stuff	Jun 15 21:38
DaemonMDV	"It's funny sometimes. When Sun developed Java, it was not free software. People never complained about that; at least not very much. Eventually Java was made free software, but the rights to the Java name and what it encompasses are still firmly held by Sun. Nobody whines about that (and rightly so).	Jun 15 21:39
DaemonMDV	With technology coming from Microsoft, however, everything in that regard is totally different. For no particularly good reason..."	Jun 15 21:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Who's gonna be killed by intellectual monopolies (aka patents) tomorrow? http://ping.fm/gNoHk		Jun 15 21:40
DaemonMDV	oh well, as long as Rhythmbox can talk to it, I'll just use Rhythmbox	Jun 15 21:41
DaemonMDV	it's not a huge deal	Jun 15 21:41
schestowitz	'#CNNFail': Twitterverse slams network's Iran absence http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10264398-2.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20	Jun 15 21:42
neighborlee	trmanco, lol, for no particular reason ;))	Jun 15 21:42
alanbell	DaemonMDV: there was no attempt that I am aware of to make Java a dependency of a free operating system	Jun 15 21:42
DaemonMDV	IcedTea	Jun 15 21:43
DaemonMDV	every distro is trying to integrate that	Jun 15 21:43
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: this is where IRC saved the day, because afterall it was IRC that covered the Soviet coup of 1991 and the subsequent fall of the USSR :D	Jun 15 21:43
DaemonMDV	nobody will write desktop apps in Java though because its performance totally blows	Jun 15 21:43
neighborlee	yes but what threats exist FROM sun?	Jun 15 21:43
Carl_Rover2k12	saves, not saved	Jun 15 21:43
DaemonMDV	there's a few crazy oddballs out there	Jun 15 21:43
DaemonMDV	but it's the exception	Jun 15 21:43
MinceR	there are desktop apps written in java	Jun 15 21:43
MinceR	besides it didn't stop people from writing desktop apps in mono	Jun 15 21:44
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schestowitz	OOoLilyPond < http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/project/OOoLilyPond >	Jun 15 21:45
Omar87	Hey guys you gotta check this out! Pirillo is talking about the Linux Desktop.	Jun 15 21:45
Omar87	http://chris.pirillo.com/live/	Jun 15 21:45
Omar87	He's not talking right now, but he'll probably be talking soon.	Jun 15 21:46
alanbell	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IcedTea	Jun 15 21:46
alanbell	java is only going in to distros because of it's renewed freeness	Jun 15 21:46
schestowitz	"Across the globe, as mining and oil firms race for dwindling resources, indigenous peoples are battling to defend their lands – often paying the ultimate price" http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jun/13/forests-environment-oil-companies	Jun 15 21:46
schestowitz	Omar87: we talk about Linux here.. _all the time_ :-)	Jun 15 21:47
Omar87	schestowitz: "Keep your friends close, and you foes closer."	Jun 15 21:48
Omar87	schestowitz: Plus, this might give us more stuff to talk about.	Jun 15 21:48
schestowitz	And some other important issues :-) "Poor farmers to guard Earth's crop riches" http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227125.100-poor-farmers-to-guard-earths-crop-riches.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news	Jun 15 21:48
schestowitz	Omar87: indeed	Jun 15 21:48
schestowitz	That's also what MS said	Jun 15 21:48
schestowitz	Because it wants to advance WIndows and .NET and stuff..	Jun 15 21:49
schestowitz	Which is why I keep a little careful of that embrace	Jun 15 21:49
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: South American oil exploration has been going on for a long time and has been reported since the start of the Cold War.	Jun 15 21:49
schestowitz	"Killing with kindness" Brian proffitt called it	Jun 15 21:49
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: will there be much left?	Jun 15 21:49
Omar87	schestowitz: Plus Plus, we can't deny the fact that Pirillo is an extremely famous creature. So.. listening to him might give us some valuable info about what's going on.	Jun 15 21:50
schestowitz	Less lumber, less oil, less oxygen, less ice	Jun 15 21:50
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: much left of what?	Jun 15 21:50
Omar87	schestowitz: Exactly.	Jun 15 21:50
schestowitz	Omar87: agreed. I follow his stuff too	Jun 15 21:50
schestowitz	I was reading his blog regularly for a while	Jun 15 21:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] The secret payload of Windows XP http://is.gd/12LpB		Jun 15 21:50
Omar87	schestowitz: Yup!	Jun 15 21:51
trmanco	I see you posted that <1MB gnote img	Jun 15 21:51
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: it all depends on how efficiently the petroleum is extracted. Oil companies have already had immense problems planting pipelines in the rain forests. Hopefully, with government cooperation rather than political intrigue they can figure out a way to do it that will impact the jungle environment the least. They haven't been able to complete many projects in the past due to constant political turmoil and sabotage but	Jun 15 21:52
Omar87	schestowitz: I'm also following his FB and Twitter.	Jun 15 21:52
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: another issue is many South American city and suburban dwellers don't look favorable upon the tribal or indigenous folks of the jungle as well as Andes Mountains	Jun 15 21:54
schestowitz	Omar87: you're on Twitter?	Jun 15 21:54
schestowitz	We can add you to BNc	Jun 15 21:54
Omar87	schestowitz: Yup!	Jun 15 21:54
schestowitz	Which account?	Jun 15 21:54
Omar87	That would be great! :D	Jun 15 21:55
DaemonMDV	hmmm, FM tuner works alright	Jun 15 21:55
Omar87	Omar_S_Hafez	Jun 15 21:55
DaemonMDV	lmao	Jun 15 21:55
DaemonMDV	played "Half the man I used to be"	Jun 15 21:55
DaemonMDV	DJ says "Must have been a bad circumcision"	Jun 15 21:55
splosion	bed!	Jun 15 21:55
*splosion (i=c13fc5f6@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d83bc95b08994ad2) has left #boycottnovell		Jun 15 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : Bob called. They want XP's talking dog back in the zoo by 5pm.		Jun 15 21:55
DaemonMDV	not Rover Retreiver!!!	Jun 15 21:56
DaemonMDV	he's mah dog mah!	Jun 15 21:56
*DaemonMDV takes the shotgun off the shelf		Jun 15 21:56
schestowitz	MySpace Might Close Offices In Europe And San Francisco http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-myspace-might-close-offices-in-europe-and-san-francisco/	Jun 15 21:56
schestowitz	Someone here asked about myspace earlier	Jun 15 21:56
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: another post bubble dot com has fallen	Jun 15 21:56
alanbell	The keyboard I am using at the moment has a small Microsoft advert on it between the ctrl and alt keys	Jun 15 21:57
maxstirner1	:D:D	Jun 15 21:57
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: passing feds	Jun 15 21:57
maxstirner1	that IS funny	Jun 15 21:57
DaemonMDV	I'll miss Rover	Jun 15 21:57
schestowitz	IRC->ICQ->whatever->myspce ->FB/Digg/LinkedIn->Twitter...	Jun 15 21:57
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 15 21:57
alanbell	I wonder how much selling the advertising space on that keycap subsidised the cost of the keyboard	Jun 15 21:57
DaemonMDV	he was always such a good dog :P	Jun 15 21:57
schestowitz	Naaa...	Jun 15 21:58
schestowitz	Pooped on the Windows	Jun 15 21:58
schestowitz	Omar87: when you Twit somehting it'll now appear in IRC too	Jun 15 21:59
Omar87	Cool! :)	Jun 15 21:59
schestowitz	Anyone else in here using Twitter?	Jun 15 21:59
schestowitz	I need to figure out how to hack it for identica support too....	Jun 15 21:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Palm Pre is shipping GPL incompliant http://ping.fm/Q1lYA		Jun 15 22:00
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Carl_Rover2k12	--BNc: its pretty much the Qualcom CDMA modem that is screwing them over	Jun 15 22:02
schestowitz	Oracle has said nada about mysql.. Sun does.. a little. New release model for MySQL http://www.h-online.com/open/New-release-model-for-MySQL--/news/113520	Jun 15 22:02
Carl_Rover2k12	CDMA drivers as far as I know have never been open source	Jun 15 22:02
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: will they comply?	Jun 15 22:02
schestowitz	TomTom needed to be brought to water to drink	Jun 15 22:02
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: who Palm or Qualcom?	Jun 15 22:02
schestowitz	Either one	Jun 15 22:02
schestowitz	They can pressure one another	Jun 15 22:03
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: Palm can't do much aside from pull their phones from Sprint, which would be suicide. Qualcom doesn't give two $%^&s	Jun 15 22:03
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schestowitz	UK subjects will be compelled to submit to ID cards http://www.richardskingdom.net/uk-subjects-will-be-compelled-to-submit-to-id-cards	Jun 15 22:04
schestowitz	Qualcom does nothing for FOSS	Jun 15 22:04
schestowitz	AFAIK	Jun 15 22:04
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Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: exactly, so nothing can be done aside from a lawsuit which Qualcom would surely put its best forward to defend the exclusivity of the CDMA modem source code	Jun 15 22:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sharing file leading to arrest: http://ping.fm/4YJLJ		Jun 15 22:05
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schestowitz	Meet Maxthon Browser 3.0 http://go.maxthon.com/web/mx3/welcome/overview.htm	Jun 15 22:07
schestowitz	Why not Firefox?	Jun 15 22:07
schestowitz	Why can't Firefox grow in China?	Jun 15 22:07
schestowitz	Like Google can't beat Bai-dumocracy-	Jun 15 22:08
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: PRC desires browsers to have special backdoors for their Great Firewall?	Jun 15 22:08
schestowitz	I guess so.	Jun 15 22:08
MinceR	google bent over for them	Jun 15 22:08
schestowitz	Baidu can also have more surveillance implemented in JS, cookies, whatever	Jun 15 22:09
schestowitz	MinceR: google cares about money	Jun 15 22:09
schestowitz	Like IBM in the 1930s	Jun 15 22:09
MinceR	i know	Jun 15 22:09
MinceR	yet they say "do no evil"	Jun 15 22:09
schestowitz	I wonder how many people need to be slaughtered before Google says, "well, OK, so... what do we do now?"	Jun 15 22:09
MinceR	i'm afraid never	Jun 15 22:10
schestowitz	Do know evil?	Jun 15 22:10
MinceR	they look like a typical usanian company	Jun 15 22:10
schestowitz	Eurasian	Jun 15 22:10
mib_hv8x1c	Roy, I remember using Maxthon on Windows, a few years back, thinking it was an alternative to IE, but someone on a forum explained that it was just IE with some customization...blech.	Jun 15 22:10
MinceR	tread over anyone and everyone to get more money	Jun 15 22:10
schestowitz	mib_hv8x1c: yes, TABS :-)	Jun 15 22:10
mib_hv8x1c	Oops, sorry...this is wallclimber being a "Mib" again	Jun 15 22:11
schestowitz	Yo!	Jun 15 22:11
schestowitz	/nick wallclimber	Jun 15 22:11
mib_hv8x1c	Hi!	Jun 15 22:11
schestowitz	New Infomation Advisor < http://blogs.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/digitalengagement/ >	Jun 15 22:11
mib_hv8x1c	I know I need to catch on to this IRC stuff...have to get back to work in a minute, just stopped in to say hi	Jun 15 22:12
schestowitz	"This is, of course, intentionally useless – it's like selling a bicycle without any wheels. It's designed to make the product as unattractive as possible, so that Microsoft can then point to its market failure as proof that the European Commission was completely misguided in its actions. " http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?blogid=14&entryid=2266	Jun 15 22:13
schestowitz	mib_hv8x1c: should I halt with news and do Comes instead?	Jun 15 22:13
schestowitz	It's tempting to do wither	Jun 15 22:13
schestowitz	*either	Jun 15 22:13
mib_hv8x1c	sure! let's get started. i'll email you	Jun 15 22:13
MinceR	there were plenty of ie+tabs browsers	Jun 15 22:14
schestowitz	Mozilla calls on all browsers to support Ogg for HTML 5 < http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2009/06/mozilla-calls-on-all-browsers.html >	Jun 15 22:14
schestowitz	mib_hv8x1c: cool,thanks!	Jun 15 22:14
schestowitz	MinceR: but not inspired by the Mighty Blue E	Jun 15 22:14
MinceR	i remembered MyIE, but apparently that's the ancestor of Maxthon	Jun 15 22:14
schestowitz	How can you use the inetrnets without the blue EEEE ?!?!#@	Jun 15 22:14
mib_hv8x1c	no problem, talk soon (gotta work now)	Jun 15 22:14
MinceR	the big blue EEE, you mean? :>	Jun 15 22:15
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schestowitz	Embrace, extend...	Jun 15 22:15
mtnd3w	"Novell to ship Linux-monitoring tool for Microsoft" http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,62055025,00.htm	Jun 15 22:15
schestowitz	And ActievX	Jun 15 22:15
schestowitz	macabe: yes	Jun 15 22:15
schestowitz	Ops Manager?	Jun 15 22:15
schestowitz	Let's see..	Jun 15 22:15
schestowitz	Novell makes Microsoft eh captain in the DC	Jun 15 22:16
schestowitz	"Novell said in a statement on Wednesday that joint sales of Linux support certificates..."	Jun 15 22:18
schestowitz	I can visualise some d0rk waving a "Certificate"	Jun 15 22:18
schestowitz	"I've got patent protection!" :-)	Jun 15 22:18
schestowitz	"And... it's from MICROSOFT"	Jun 15 22:18
schestowitz	"Those NOVELL chaps are SOOOO cool... selling me certificate to use Linux........ from MICROSOFT	Jun 15 22:19
schestowitz	http://www.openoasis.org/ "OASIS aims to provide an authoritative ‘sourcebook’ on Open Access, covering the concept, principles, advantages, approaches and means to achieving it. The site highlights developments and initiatives from around the world, with links to diverse additional resources and case studies. As such, it is a community-building as much as a resource-building exercise. Users are encouraged to share and download	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	the resources provided, and to modify and customize them for local use. Open Access is evolving, and we invite the growing world-wide community to take part in this exciting global movement.	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	Adobe Flash Player not installed or older than 9.0.115!	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	Get Adobe Flash Player here	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	Read more about the site.	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz		Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	OAweek_468x60	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz		Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	News	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	* Fascinating Meeting at the Copyright Office	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	* What does it mean to support open science?	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	* Editor will quit over hoax paper	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	* Gold OA Funds	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	* TP: "Es hilft nicht, an den alten Geschäftsmodellen festzuhalten."	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	* Information Research - ideas and debate: Bentham follow-up	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	"	Jun 15 22:20
schestowitz	Oops.	Jun 15 22:21
schestowitz	I pasted too much	Jun 15 22:21
schestowitz	Is this the same OASIS?	Jun 15 22:21
schestowitz	"we're open.."	Jun 15 22:21
schestowitz	use Flash	Jun 15 22:21
schestowitz	Enable JS...	Jun 15 22:21
schestowitz	"So What Exactly Does Linus Do These Days?[...] So know we know: just like in any other job, he's ended up in management..." http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/06/so-what-exactly-does-linus-do-these.html	Jun 15 22:22
schestowitz	Worldchanging Interview: Bill McKibben http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009974.html	Jun 15 22:23
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: oh why does he have to be for Carbon Points :(	Jun 15 22:26
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: pricing Carbon output will just make it easier for larger corporation to stay on top while newer businesses will have a harder time trying to gain output to meet their potential demand	Jun 15 22:27
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: and Carbon Points don't just apply to the physical output of carbon dioxide, it also applies to energy input and how much electricity is used. Since rule of thumb in the US dictates you are most likely utilizing the electricity from a coal or natural gas power plant.	Jun 15 22:28
Omar87	Sheesh! What a disgusting video: http://chris.pirillo.com/desktop-linux/	Jun 15 22:29
Omar87	Full of MS yip-yapping.. -_-	Jun 15 22:29
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: you can see all his sponsors	Jun 15 22:30
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Omar87	Carl_Rover2k12: Yeah, just seeing the GoDaddy logo among his sponsors gives you all the evidence you need to know exactly what's on his mind.	Jun 15 22:31
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: I like how people who think they know whats good for the "ignorant" consumers think that competition would turn them away, and not look on the bright side that it offers choice	Jun 15 22:32
Omar87	Carl_Rover2k12: Yeah..	Jun 15 22:32
Omar87	Carl_Rover2k12: By the way, Chris Pirillo turns out to be so contradicted with himself. He doesn't know what he wants.	Jun 15 22:33
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Omar87	Carl_Rover2k12: Because just about a month ago, he made a video about a GPL'ed file sharing application called "Tonido", and he seemed so amazed about how great it is.	Jun 15 22:34
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: as long as its also on Windows or OSX he loves it	Jun 15 22:35
Omar87	But when you hear him talking about openness of Linux, you find a totally opposite kind of thinking.	Jun 15 22:35
Omar87	I think he's either a psychopath, or an idiot, or simply an MS kool-aid junky.	Jun 15 22:36
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: I hear as much about people who can't support themselves with Vista because of all the administrative hurdles they have to go through. OSX is not exactly friendly when it comes to completely uninstalling including the ktexts.	Jun 15 22:37
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: can you imagine someone at the Apple Genius Bar trying to explain the virtues of Libraries and Extensions?	Jun 15 22:38
Omar87	huh?	Jun 15 22:38
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: just saying that Fedora, Ubuntu and even Red Hat make uninstalling as easy as unchecking selections on the Repository App.	Jun 15 22:39
Omar87	Carl_Rover2k12: Exactly.	Jun 15 22:39
Carl_Rover2k12	Omar87: if thats not userfriendly than I don't know what is	Jun 15 22:40
Omar87	Sometimes it's even dangerously easy, lol. :)	Jun 15 22:40
schestowitz	New Parliament retains gender imbalance < http://www.euractiv.com/en/eu-elections/new-parliament-retains-gender-imbalance/article-183125?Ref=RSS >	Jun 15 22:40
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: whatever happened to just voting in who you want to represent you?	Jun 15 22:41
schestowitz	Personally?	Jun 15 22:42
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: they just need to make smaller, less potent authoritiies	Jun 15 22:42
schestowitz	Like cliques of people decide, but not political parties where only ONE takes power	Jun 15 22:42
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: the EU Parliament is starting to sound more like the Soviet Politburo with all these edicts and requirements for "proper representation."	Jun 15 22:42
schestowitz	And the rest are spectators	Jun 15 22:43
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: meh.	Jun 15 22:43
schestowitz	Heard of EPO?	Jun 15 22:43
schestowitz	They don't accept input from Spanish people	Jun 15 22:43
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: I see the word "Eypo" on the Euro currency, but aside from that no	Jun 15 22:43
schestowitz	EPO - Europe? Private company? Elite? Brimelow amd Ilk?	Jun 15 22:43
schestowitz	I;ve never really paid attention to what the Euro might mean to offshoring	Jun 15 22:44
schestowitz	And lowering of wages	Jun 15 22:44
schestowitz	aka Globalisation... the term "global currency" is sometimes associated with nuts	Jun 15 22:45
schestowitz	UnitedDollar	Jun 15 22:45
schestowitz	All versus the Asia currencies taking capital in oil trade	Jun 15 22:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Shooting stars never stop. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/7859.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/521664.html		Jun 15 22:45
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: there is no need for "global currency" when all currency is judged and exchanged on a global standard enforced by the G units or World Bank/IMF	Jun 15 22:45
schestowitz	USD?	Jun 15 22:46
schestowitz	G unit?	Jun 15 22:46
schestowitz	?	Jun 15 22:46
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: G3, G6, G10 and ect G summits	Jun 15 22:46
fewa	schestowitz, the EU is pretty good male v female	Jun 15 22:46
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: all of these meetings, summits and organization are done primarily to ensure a certain standard of global trade. Which in many cases is the kind that benefits a few.	Jun 15 22:47
schestowitz	http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=14071#p50028	Jun 15 22:48
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: you also have he World Intellectual Property Organization, which ensures that businesses are able to hold and make money off of their IPs across borders and in different nations or states.	Jun 15 22:49
schestowitz	Carl_Rover2k12: not "Few"	Jun 15 22:49
schestowitz	"Few _that mater_"	Jun 15 22:49
schestowitz	Them the responsible adults	Jun 15 22:49
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: well few in the scope of the entire world's populous	Jun 15 22:49
schestowitz	Can't let us kids run round rampant.	Jun 15 22:49
schestowitz	WIPO is a corporate shill	Jun 15 22:49
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: whatever few benefit from it eventually trickle down to the many, or so Reganomics put it	Jun 15 22:50
schestowitz	Whether made by companies or their lobbyists or pollies whom they fund	Jun 15 22:50
schestowitz	It's there t serve a purpose	Jun 15 22:50
schestowitz	But whose?	Jun 15 22:50
balzac	that's why Capitalist-Activism is necessary	Jun 15 22:52
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: WIPO is one of the oldest organizations for setting a standard for global trade and exchange that effect us. The name has changed and they have recently in 1967 have come under the hospices of the UN, but meetings of this sort have held among nations since the 18th century.	Jun 15 22:52
balzac	Captasticalivism	Jun 15 22:52
balzac	craptastivism	Jun 15 22:52
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: to serve the IP and respect the trademarks of large businesses that started being established during that time	Jun 15 22:53
Carl_Rover2k12	schestowitz: its one of the reasons why Zeta OS was still considered illegal because it broke with BeOS IPs. I can name numerous other examples too.	Jun 15 22:54
*tessier is typing this on a Linux 7.2 desktop he set up for his mom in 2001 and has been running 24/7 ever since		Jun 15 22:55
balzac	rh?	Jun 15 22:58
Carl_Rover2k12	brb	Jun 15 23:00
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schestowitz	Is Google About To Introduce A Microblog Search Offering? < http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-will-google-launch-a-twitter-search-engine/#extended >	Jun 15 23:01
schestowitz	tessier: no patching?	Jun 15 23:01
balzac	I'm having a GNU/Linux install fest	Jun 15 23:02
balzac	installing a bunch of distros on virtualbox	Jun 15 23:02
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balzac	crunchbang, damn small linux, gnewsense, dream linux, debian, backtrack, wolvix	Jun 15 23:04
balzac	I'll be adding slackware, blag, fedora, gentoo as well	Jun 15 23:04
balzac	might as well try zenwalk while i'm at it...	Jun 15 23:04
balzac	I have two monitors now, 1440x900 resolution, running from a geforce 7600 GT	Jun 15 23:06
balzac	sadly with nvidia's proprietary driver :(	Jun 15 23:06
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fewa	the propritary driver is 8 womping megs of kernel code	Jun 15 23:10
fewa	its as big as the kernel itsself	Jun 15 23:10
trmanco	the complete kernel is about 60 MB	Jun 15 23:13
trmanco	compiled, I would say 20? it really depends	Jun 15 23:13
trmanco	but squashing the kernel into 8 megs, that would be art, no?	Jun 15 23:14
balzac	nvidia's driver?	Jun 15 23:15
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_Goblin	evening all	Jun 15 23:16
trmanco	yeah	Jun 15 23:16
trmanco	comparing with that yeah	Jun 15 23:16
trmanco	Hi _Goblin	Jun 15 23:16
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Daemonbuntu	well, Banshee 1.5 at least seems to understand what this device is	Jun 15 23:17
balzac	The GPUs are getting pretty fancy, so I can understand to some degree. But it's probably quite a bit bigger than necessary	Jun 15 23:17
trmanco	Daemonbuntu, nice name for a distro :-P	Jun 15 23:18
Daemonbuntu	uh huh	Jun 15 23:18
Daemonbuntu	if I start Banshee then plug the player in, it crashes	Jun 15 23:19
Daemonbuntu	if I plugthe player in then start Banshee, it reads it	Jun 15 23:19
balzac	well, it is mono-based	Jun 15 23:19
balzac	you know, the MS-funded projects tend to be slapped together hastily	Jun 15 23:19
Daemonbuntu	the firmware on the player seems to be full of bugs	Jun 15 23:20
Daemonbuntu	"auto detect" sometimes chooses MTP and sometimes PTP	Jun 15 23:20
trmanco	mono banshee.exe	Jun 15 23:20
Daemonbuntu	on the same operating system	Jun 15 23:20
trmanco	crash.dll doesn't seem to function well when you insert player before banshee start :-P	Jun 15 23:21
Daemonbuntu	if it chooses PTP, then Ubuntu can talk to it and Banshee understands that it's a media player	Jun 15 23:21
schestowitz	Daemonbuntu: you're nymshifting	Jun 15 23:22
schestowitz	I'd have to ban you	Jun 15 23:22
Daemonbuntu	whatever	Jun 15 23:23
Daemonbuntu	its pretty obvious who I am	Jun 15 23:23
Daemonbuntu	if balzac can figure it out, so can your stuffed iguana	Jun 15 23:24
Daemonbuntu	but as you insist	Jun 15 23:24
*Daemonbuntu is now known as DaemonFC		Jun 15 23:24
trmanco	:\|	Jun 15 23:24
trmanco	I just gpl'ed you other nick	Jun 15 23:25
trmanco	no one can steel it now :-P	Jun 15 23:25
balzac	well, just installed gnewsense on virtualbox	Jun 15 23:25
balzac	it's rather nice	Jun 15 23:25
DaemonFC	well yeah, VirtualBox is generic hardware several years old that Linux has never really had a problem with	Jun 15 23:26
mtnd3w	balzac: gNewSense has Mono btw	Jun 15 23:26
DaemonFC	so Gnewsense will run	Jun 15 23:26
balzac	really?	Jun 15 23:26
DaemonFC	now for your next trick, try it on real hardware	Jun 15 23:26
DaemonFC	:)	Jun 15 23:26
balzac	outrageous	Jun 15 23:26
mtnd3w	balzac: yes :/	Jun 15 23:26
balzac	why?	Jun 15 23:26
DaemonFC	cause it's free software	Jun 15 23:27
DaemonFC	just throwing that out there	Jun 15 23:27
DaemonFC	;)	Jun 15 23:27
balzac	yeah, well I mentioned it to Richard over dinner once	Jun 15 23:27
balzac	and he didn't seem as riled up about it as me, but I haven't figured out why not	Jun 15 23:27
balzac	maybe it's confidence in the ultimate victory of good over software patents	Jun 15 23:28
mtnd3w	Richard Stallman: Mono is a free implementation of Microsoft's language C#. Microsoft has declared itself our enemy and we know that Microsoft is getting patents on some features of C#. So I think it's dangerous to use C#, and it may be dangerous to use Mono. There's nothing wrong with Mono. Mono is a free implementation of a language that users use. It's good to provide free implementations. We should have free implementations of	Jun 15 23:28
mtnd3w	every language. But, depending on it is dangerous, and we better not do that.	Jun 15 23:28
balzac	ok	Jun 15 23:28
balzac	that's good to know	Jun 15 23:28
balzac	RMS doesn't always stay right on top of issues, tracking them day-to-day. He relies on people to bring new issues to his attention.	Jun 15 23:29
balzac	I don't get the impression that he uses a blog aggregator	Jun 15 23:29
balzac	Mono is technically "free software", but it's GPLv2 and it's Microsoft-sponsored (indirectly), so it's clearly a trojan horse bearing patent claims for Lord Ballmer and his minions.	Jun 15 23:31
balzac	I'm glad RMS has hardened his rhetoric against it.	Jun 15 23:31
balzac	mtnd3w: can I see a link?	Jun 15 23:31
tessier	schestowitz: Nope, zero patching for 8 years. Spent a few years on a dialup modem but is now behind a nat. Does not run any services. So that helps a lot.	Jun 15 23:32
balzac	Now that Stallman has spoken, why is gnewsense still carrying mono?	Jun 15 23:32
schestowitz	No idea...	Jun 15 23:32
schestowitz	But it's inherited from Ubuntu	Jun 15 23:32
balzac	now i'm going to install fedora	Jun 15 23:33
schestowitz	Their goal is to provide Ubuntu without the blobs	Jun 15 23:33
schestowitz	Not to make too much of a remix	Jun 15 23:33
schestowitz	BLAG is Mono-free	Jun 15 23:33
schestowitz	And it's based on Fedora	Jun 15 23:33
balzac	i've got that one downloading	Jun 15 23:33
mtnd3w	http://fsfe.org/documents/rms-fs-2006-03-09.en.html#q1	Jun 15 23:33
mtnd3w	balzac: it's from a transcript	Jun 15 23:34
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balzac	ok	Jun 15 23:35
DaemonFC	http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7687/screenshotsvj.png	Jun 15 23:36
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u r done with MDV?	Jun 15 23:36
DaemonFC	looks like if it happens to choose PTP, Ubuntu knows what to do	Jun 15 23:37
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 15 23:37
balzac	well, maybe it was that I brought up Miguel de Icaza and mono, and he was trying to have a light touch in how he spoke of the wayward developer	Jun 15 23:37
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : does Banshee have an equalizer?	Jun 15 23:37
balzac	I can't remember the conversation clearly enough to say anything definitive.	Jun 15 23:37
DaemonFC	http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/8283/screenshotm.png	Jun 15 23:38
DaemonFC	yeah, it does	Jun 15 23:38
DaemonFC	/dev/sdf1 on /media/Sansa View type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,uhelper=hal,shortname=mixed,uid=1000,utf8,umask=077,flush)	Jun 15 23:39
_Hicham_	wow, it is great then	Jun 15 23:39
balzac	Blag downloading, Fedora installing, Debian booting for the first time	Jun 15 23:39
trmanco	audacious suits my needs	Jun 15 23:39
DaemonFC	it's using FAT32	Jun 15 23:39
DaemonFC	for storage	Jun 15 23:39
balzac	audacity?	Jun 15 23:39
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : normal	Jun 15 23:40
_Hicham_	I am still installing Windows XP	Jun 15 23:40
_Goblin	offtopic: Heres a mad idea...Microsoft to buy Setanta? It seems like with the recent sky/microsoft deal, Microsoft may be getting more into the entertain world.....	Jun 15 23:40
_Hicham_	but overall performance is good	Jun 15 23:40
DaemonFC	I wonder if OpenSuse could figure this device out	Jun 15 23:40
DaemonFC	it seems Microsoft-ish enough	Jun 15 23:40
DaemonFC	:P	Jun 15 23:40
_Hicham_	which device DaemonFC ? your Salsa?	Jun 15 23:41
DaemonFC	Sansa	Jun 15 23:41
DaemonFC	yes	Jun 15 23:41
_Hicham_	Now it is easier to get help, and help others	Jun 15 23:41
_Hicham_	that is what im seeing on Windows XP install screen	Jun 15 23:41
DaemonFC	yeah	Jun 15 23:42
_Hicham_	great community sense	Jun 15 23:42
DaemonFC	you can use Remote Assistance	Jun 15 23:42
DaemonFC	that's part of what Windows Messenger can do	Jun 15 23:42
DaemonFC	but you can send invite passes through email too	Jun 15 23:42
_Hicham_	I know that	Jun 15 23:42
_Hicham_	I have done it before	Jun 15 23:42
_Hicham_	I just want to see Windows XP performance with qemu	Jun 15 23:43
_Hicham_	the kqemu accelerator is great	Jun 15 23:43
_Hicham_	qemu is the base for all vitualization s/w	Jun 15 23:43
_Hicham_	I really do respect Fabrice Bellet	Jun 15 23:44
_Hicham_	he is a real computer wizard	Jun 15 23:45
_Hicham_	Setup will finish in approximately 2min	Jun 15 23:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Heres a crazy idea I had: #Microsoft to buy Setanta's premier league package?...Hey anythings possible...		Jun 15 23:45
_Hicham_	it have been a long time since I installed Windows XP	Jun 15 23:46
_Hicham_	Saving settings	Jun 15 23:46
_Hicham_	which settings is it saving?	Jun 15 23:46
schestowitz	_Goblin: are you still trying to get the shills to subscribe to you because of the tags?	Jun 15 23:46
schestowitz	You're like a shillbait	Jun 15 23:46
schestowitz	shill-magnet	Jun 15 23:47
_Hicham_	Removing any temporory files used	Jun 15 23:47
_Hicham_	that is a logical phase	Jun 15 23:47
_Hicham_	deleting, deleting, deleting	Jun 15 23:47
_Hicham_	Finalizing installation	Jun 15 23:47
_Hicham_	Cleaning DaemonFC	Jun 15 23:47
_Hicham_	Setup is complete	Jun 15 23:48
DaemonFC	saving your settings of course	Jun 15 23:48
DaemonFC	that's there in case you used WAIK	Jun 15 23:49
DaemonFC	don't you know anything? :D	Jun 15 23:49
_Hicham_	WAIK?	Jun 15 23:49
DaemonFC	Windows Automated Installation Kit	Jun 15 23:49
ThistleWeb	nice to see Gordon Brown's understood this new call for transparent government huh? Iraq War inquiry to be held in secret	Jun 15 23:49
DaemonFC	unattended swetup	Jun 15 23:49
DaemonFC	:D	Jun 15 23:49
DaemonFC	nLite can also do that	Jun 15 23:50
DaemonFC	or vLite if you use Vista	Jun 15 23:50
balzac	there's a conspiracy to protect Bush, Blair, and others	Jun 15 23:50
_Hicham_	most of pirated CDs are automated	Jun 15 23:50
ThistleWeb	cue another "mistakes were made, lessons were learned, ministers did nothing wrong" report	Jun 15 23:50
balzac	lots of American members of congress	Jun 15 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux 2.6.30's best five features < http://ping.fm/mTtKU >		Jun 15 23:50
DaemonFC	I won't likely use Linux 2.6.30	Jun 15 23:51
DaemonFC	I got hit by some kind of bug when I did	Jun 15 23:51
DaemonFC	and so I got rid of it	Jun 15 23:51
DaemonFC	couldn't see any video DVDs	Jun 15 23:51
*balzac offers DaemonFC a tissue		Jun 15 23:51
_Hicham_	what bug?	Jun 15 23:51
_Hicham_	great for ya	Jun 15 23:52
_Hicham_	did u compile it urself?	Jun 15 23:52
DaemonFC	hmmmm, Windows XP can see the files Banshee put on here	Jun 15 23:53
DaemonFC	good enough for me	Jun 15 23:53
DaemonFC	I tried Mandriva's kernel-linus 2.6.30	Jun 15 23:53
DaemonFC	and compiled my own	Jun 15 23:53
DaemonFC	both have same problem	Jun 15 23:53
_Hicham_	report the bug then	Jun 15 23:55
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Jun 15 23:56
ThistleWeb	politicians don't seem to have grasped the concept that the only people who believe in their findings, are them. The public have long dismissed them as whitewashes	Jun 15 23:56
ThistleWeb	having a controversial inquiry in private only gets it dismissed as a whitewash before it's started its work	Jun 15 23:57
balzac	well, there are still some really ignorant Americans who still believe lots of the crap they're told on Fox.	Jun 15 23:57
ThistleWeb	yeah the gene pool does still have contaminants	Jun 15 23:58
schestowitz	Darwin's awards don't work though	Jun 15 23:58
_Hicham_	the pirated version of Windows XP that i have comes bundled with a lot of software	Jun 15 23:59
_Hicham_	all pirated	Jun 15 23:59
schestowitz	Those who survice are the f*ckwits	Jun 15 23:59
_Hicham_	for example	Jun 15 23:59
schestowitz	They bomb hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians	Jun 15 23:59
_Hicham_	Microsoft Office	Jun 15 23:59
balzac	I'd prefer to blame cultural problems, or at worst, pollution.	Jun 15 23:59
_Hicham_	Winrar	Jun 15 23:59
ThistleWeb	bombing creates jobs, people need to build and sell them to the warmonger	Jun 15 23:59
_Hicham_	I like the fact that I have Firefox on Windows CD	Jun 15 23:59
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: this is why the gene problem is not resolved	Jun 15 23:59
*Daemonbuntu (n=ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 15 23:59
balzac	when you take their genetics into account, they get even crazier to prove their superiority.	Jun 15 23:59

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