| Was it? Even M$ has trouble showing that anyone uses Vista. | Jun 29 00:00 | |
| tacone | well they could have it pirated all the way and then cry out loud for new laws on piracy | Jun 29 00:00 |
| _Goblin | true. | Jun 29 00:00 |
| _Goblin | I think when people get it for free they are more willing to have a look. I think giving MS cash for it will be the problem. Either way MS has difficulties ahead (IMO) | Jun 29 00:01 |
| *Omar87 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 00:01 | |
| _Goblin | "getting them hooked" is a great idea if you have a company left to get a return. | Jun 29 00:01 |
| People got Vista "for free" with their new computers, but they did not stick with it. | Jun 29 00:01 | |
| they dumped Vista as fast as they could. | Jun 29 00:01 | |
| Even M$ friendly "marketshare" studies have Windoze at 87% or less. | Jun 29 00:02 | |
| _Goblin | yep. and those "free" copies were what MS counted as "users" even if they had downgraded. | Jun 29 00:02 |
| and they made it easy enough to get by "piracy" | Jun 29 00:03 | |
| _Goblin | or should I say upgraded to XP. | Jun 29 00:03 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, it counts as a vista sale, regardless of if they paid a premium to stay on xp, or wiped it when it got home | Jun 29 00:03 |
| M$ flails and fails. | Jun 29 00:03 | |
| _Goblin | The real show of MS failing will be when the freeloaders who rely on MS bribes start to disapear....forget MS cutting products, the "silence of the shills" will signify the end of MS as we know it. | Jun 29 00:04 |
| oiaohm | Linux is currently in chaos of its own making. | Jun 29 00:05 |
| oiaohm | Video driver corrections. | Jun 29 00:05 |
| _Goblin | and that name is now copyrighted...I'm going to make a movie. "The Silence of the Shills" | Jun 29 00:05 |
| trolls stalking me show amazing brazenness http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1283973&cid=28501115 | Jun 29 00:05 | |
| oiaohm | When Linux gets out the otherside of this mess it will be a desktop class kernel. | Jun 29 00:05 |
| oiaohm | Then the battle between windows and Linux can start. | Jun 29 00:06 |
| _Goblin | Its sad MS has to behave this way..at least the Amiga/ST wars were clean. | Jun 29 00:06 |
| they are here, or they monitor all of my journals for changes on a daily basis. | Jun 29 00:06 | |
| oiaohm | Do you have access to logs. | Jun 29 00:07 |
| showing off their nyms like that was a mistake. | Jun 29 00:07 | |
| oiaohm | Of server. | Jun 29 00:07 |
| oiaohm | It would be interesting to know when MS search visits. | Jun 29 00:07 |
| oiaohm | And how far behind the trolls are. | Jun 29 00:07 |
| I now have pretty clear evidence of how obsessive and organized these douche bags are. | Jun 29 00:08 | |
| ThistleWeb | I wonder when the tipping point will come. Companies like Adobe won't look at Linux now because they make plenty of money from Mac and Windows professionals who have too much to lose if they get caught using pirated copies, but at some point Linux's marketshare will be obvious to them that they're losing potential customers by not making their stuff available for Linux too. In some cases bribes by Microsoft are keeping companies from offering L | Jun 29 00:08 |
| ThistleWeb | inux options, but at some point that won't be enough | Jun 29 00:08 |
| oiaohm | Its not enough now. | Jun 29 00:09 |
| ThistleWeb | as soon as a large company like Adobe start treating Linux as an equal option alongside the other two, others will join in, assuming Adobe have spotted something they haven't and don't want left out | Jun 29 00:09 |
| oiaohm | Lot of devices shipping with windows on are still shipping with Linux of some form. | Jun 29 00:09 |
| oiaohm | Ie splashtop and the like. | Jun 29 00:09 |
| oiaohm | Adobe said there major reason for not supporting Linux is the installer fragmentation. | Jun 29 00:10 |
| ThistleWeb | they have at least given a new version of Flash player | Jun 29 00:10 |
| oiaohm | Think about that. | Jun 29 00:11 |
| ThistleWeb | even if it is a security risk on every platform | Jun 29 00:11 |
| oiaohm | It was basically at the same time on all platforms. | Jun 29 00:11 |
| oiaohm | Go back a few years and you had to wait like 8 months for a new Flash player. | Jun 29 00:11 |
| oiaohm | after windows had it. | Jun 29 00:11 |
| ThistleWeb | exactly | Jun 29 00:11 |
| oiaohm | The tide is turning. | Jun 29 00:11 |
| ThistleWeb | adobe's flagship products are the pro use ones | Jun 29 00:11 |
| ThistleWeb | mostly used by pro designers, who will likely be using macs | Jun 29 00:12 |
| tacone | http://www.stefanoforenza.com/ms-makes-everybody-happy/ | Jun 29 00:12 |
| ThistleWeb | plenty of offices do need photshop or dreamweaver for updating sites etc and use windows | Jun 29 00:13 |
| oiaohm | Define need. | Jun 29 00:13 |
| oiaohm | I recently did a class here using gimp. | Jun 29 00:13 |
| ThistleWeb | most home users who use adobe's flagship stuff, use pirated versions | Jun 29 00:13 |
| oiaohm | Turned out lots were not dusing the unque versions of photoshop. | Jun 29 00:13 |
| ThistleWeb | need is maybe the wrong word | Jun 29 00:14 |
| oiaohm | try again. | Jun 29 00:14 |
| oiaohm | Turned out lots were not using unque features of photoshop. | Jun 29 00:14 |
| ThistleWeb | the point I was trying to make is that the peeps who have to pay for their stuff are gonna be using mostly macs, and to a lesser degree windows | Jun 29 00:14 |
| tacone | wow, ms is boycotting eu | Jun 29 00:15 |
| tacone | http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9134821 | Jun 29 00:15 |
| ThistleWeb | while the linux share rises, it may take a lot for adobe to see their particular profitable demographic represented enough to react to | Jun 29 00:16 |
| ThistleWeb | I guess I should have used a different company as an example huh? lol | Jun 29 00:16 |
| _Goblin | Lol..seems that way...its probably the only way to get a return from Vista 7 after the EU anti-trust hit them with a fine. | Jun 29 00:16 |
| tacone | ritorsion | Jun 29 00:16 |
| _Goblin | * in relation to tacone's post... | Jun 29 00:16 |
| oiaohm | Lot of closed source companies fear going head to head with open source tech. | Jun 29 00:17 |
| oiaohm | If you look at blender you can understand why. | Jun 29 00:17 |
| tacone | nice point | Jun 29 00:17 |
| _Goblin | Ontop of that, what with the Vista 7 claims of security, what of 3rd party developers of such software... | Jun 29 00:17 |
| tacone | competing with open source may be scaring for little companies | Jun 29 00:17 |
| oiaohm | Even big companies like adobe. | Jun 29 00:17 |
| ThistleWeb | Microsoft will punish people for not being good little sheep and upgrading en masse to Vista like they've been told to. Microsoft already spent a lot of money they expected to just roll in when Vista hit the stores, and it didn't come | Jun 29 00:17 |
| oiaohm | Adobe learnt with there PDF reader. | Jun 29 00:18 |
| oiaohm | Linux has many good open source PDF readers that work better than the adobe one. | Jun 29 00:18 |
| *ToXedVirus2 (i=toxedvir@achn-4db49b5c.pool.einsundeins.de) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 00:18 | |
| ThistleWeb | so they have to make that back somehow, adding the punishment to the Windows 7 price seems about right, with an additional fee for EU customers to pay for the EU fines | Jun 29 00:18 |
| oiaohm | Open source developers will try to repair stuff if they cannot repair it they will replace it. | Jun 29 00:19 |
| oiaohm | This is scary to closed source companies. | Jun 29 00:19 |
| oiaohm | There is one thing the open source world is particularly bad at doing writing manuals. | Jun 29 00:20 |
| ThistleWeb | lock in is a great way of ensuring repeat business, it's just shit for the customer, FOSS is very difficult (if not impossible) to lock the customer in, so you have to compete by actually offering a better service and or price, which is a lot more time consuming and less guaranteed than the initial sale of a program | Jun 29 00:20 |
| oiaohm | Windows 7 seams to be on time line to go head to head with improved Linux. | Jun 29 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Another good documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKAW173cSjY&feature=related | Jun 29 00:21 |
| oiaohm | As more and more users are trying open source distributions they are expecting more applications after install. | Jun 29 00:22 |
| oiaohm | MS also had the idea that cutting XP price to basically nothing they could push Linux out of existance. | Jun 29 00:23 |
| _Goblin | another MS great idea. | Jun 29 00:23 |
| ThistleWeb | oiaohm: that could be a bad thing if it's acted on too much, as it encourages more bloat and larger .iso files, meaning less cd's and more dvd's. The 700mb cd limit helps keep it down though | Jun 29 00:23 |
| ThistleWeb | dvd .iso's are great but not everyone wants a huge file, or has the option of dvd | Jun 29 00:24 |
| ThistleWeb | options are always good | Jun 29 00:24 |
| _Goblin | true, although Nimble X allows you to create your distro's packages before downloading the ISO....great idea, keeps bandwidth down and the user immediately gets what they want. | Jun 29 00:25 |
| ThistleWeb | at least with a cd, there's always the dilema of what to add and what to remove to make space for it | Jun 29 00:25 |
| ThistleWeb | _Goblin: yeah slax does that too | Jun 29 00:25 |
| ThistleWeb | as an option | Jun 29 00:25 |
| jose_X | Just read the link posted a little earlier: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9134821 | Jun 29 00:25 |
| ThistleWeb | dunno if I'd suggest slax for a newbie | Jun 29 00:26 |
| oiaohm | Really the time of CD installers is coming to the end. | Jun 29 00:26 |
| ThistleWeb | but as I said, options are great | Jun 29 00:26 |
| _Goblin | I think its a great idea...and yes, I think Slax is wholly unsuitable for a completely new Linux user. | Jun 29 00:26 |
| oiaohm | Lot more focus need to move to USB installers. | Jun 29 00:26 |
| ThistleWeb | oiaohm: not for peeps who only have a cd | Jun 29 00:26 |
| oiaohm | How many machines don't support USB keys ThistleWeb. | Jun 29 00:26 |
| ThistleWeb | I know | Jun 29 00:27 |
| oiaohm | There are more and more machines appearing without a cdrom drive. | Jun 29 00:27 |
| _Goblin | Mind you NimbleX is slax derived, and offers the advantages of without the complication.....I've written articles on NimbleX before, I was very impressed. | Jun 29 00:27 |
| _Goblin | I think the standard ISO is 200meg. | Jun 29 00:28 |
| oiaohm | XP it self is only 200 megs. | Jun 29 00:28 |
| _Goblin | and that gives you the choice of about 7 different DE's | Jun 29 00:28 |
| *ToXedVirus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 00:28 | |
| ThistleWeb | never thought of nimble x before | Jun 29 00:29 |
| _Goblin | some of which I had never heard of until I looked at NimbleX | Jun 29 00:29 |
| ThistleWeb | I thought it was a debian derivative | Jun 29 00:29 |
| ThistleWeb | I must be thinking of somehting else | Jun 29 00:29 |
| _Goblin | you've now made me doubt myself....! Ill double check.... | Jun 29 00:29 |
| ThistleWeb | it's slackware based | Jun 29 00:31 |
| _Goblin | yeah just saw on the site.... | Jun 29 00:31 |
| _Goblin | off topic: Ive got the Bullying UK charity following me on Twitter. Is that trying to tell me something? Is it saying I bully the MS faithful or the MS faithful bully me? | Jun 29 00:33 |
| _Goblin | I dont feel like a victim....or maybe I am in denial. | Jun 29 00:34 |
| ThistleWeb | maybe | Jun 29 00:34 |
| oiaohm | Vector Linux is also slax based. Its not the packaging format is the package system that controls it defines userfriendlyness. | Jun 29 00:36 |
| ThistleWeb | a distro that has me intriuged but I've never tried it, nor do I think I could ever fully trust it is Pardus, because it's (Turkish) govt built. Any "govt endorsed" software is likely to have something dubious | Jun 29 00:36 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.20.52) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 00:36 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi schestowitz! | Jun 29 00:37 |
| *Eruaran has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 29 00:37 | |
| schestowitz | Hey | Jun 29 00:37 |
| oiaohm | Hi schestowitz | Jun 29 00:37 |
| schestowitz | "Enemy combatant".. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QryuMf8qZ0g&feature=related | Jun 29 00:38 |
| schestowitz | It's amazing how the law is misused | Jun 29 00:38 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : I am on Mandriva now | Jun 29 00:39 |
| _Hicham_ | I heard that it will get plymouth by next year | Jun 29 00:39 |
| oiaohm | The news vacuem is pushing more open source news main stream. | Jun 29 00:41 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what do we mean by " A Kernel compiled with Memory Management"? | Jun 29 00:41 |
| oiaohm | I need context to work that one out _Hicham_ | Jun 29 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Memory Management comes in many different forms. | Jun 29 00:43 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 00:43 | |
| oiaohm | One of the patches recently with the Linux kernel was to remove the duel memory manager. | Jun 29 00:44 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel had a start up memory management that would allows the main memory manager to load. | Jun 29 00:45 |
| oiaohm | They are removing the start up memory management and just using the main memory manager from the start line. | Jun 29 00:45 |
| oiaohm | And there are many more meaning that line can mean _Hicham_ | Jun 29 00:46 |
| oiaohm | Context is important to work out what the line is about | Jun 29 00:46 |
| _Hicham_ | I heard that when they are talking about KMS | Jun 29 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Ok that is talking about GEM and TTM. | Jun 29 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Video card memory management is required so KMS can work. | Jun 29 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Yes the line you gave me is used many times to mean many different things. English with implied context is a bastard. | Jun 29 00:49 |
| _Hicham_ | so what is GEM and TTM? | Jun 29 00:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Notes to self. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/9598.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/523501.html | Jun 29 00:57 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: my cousin loved that tool you linked to | Jun 29 00:59 |
| schestowitz | Made a collage from it.. | Jun 29 00:59 |
| oiaohm | GEM and TTM are the two different systems designed for managing video card memory in Linux. | Jun 29 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : what tool? | Jun 29 01:00 |
| oiaohm | GEM is used by intel. TTM is used by AMD. TTM provides a GEM interface to userspace. | Jun 29 01:01 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: for pictures to be embedded | Jun 29 01:01 |
| _Goblin | right, Im off to bed...gn all. | Jun 29 01:02 |
| *_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal") | Jun 29 01:02 | |
| *neighborlee has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 01:07 | |
| schestowitz | I'm not tired today. Weird. | Jun 29 01:09 |
| oiaohm | You have pushed some strange sleep paterns most likely catching up with you schestowitz | Jun 29 01:10 |
| fewa | http://torrentfreak.com/brazilian-president-shows-warmth-to-pirate-bay-spokesman-090627/ | Jun 29 01:11 |
| oiaohm | I have had times where I have not slept for 24 hours after a stuffed up sleep cycles. | Jun 29 01:11 |
| fewa | Brazilian President Shows Warmth To Pirate Bay Spokesman | Jun 29 01:11 |
| fewa | “In our government it is prohibited to prohibit,” said the president during his speech at the event. “I consider this bill a form of censorship,” he added. | Jun 29 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : u don't seem to be a big sleeper | Jun 29 01:12 |
| oiaohm | I sleep 8 hours. | Jun 29 01:12 |
| oiaohm | It day here _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:12 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz and me are basically on other sides of the world. | Jun 29 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | me and schestowitz have the same time zone | Jun 29 01:14 |
| oiaohm | I am in Australia _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:15 |
| oiaohm | So what is late to you is basically day to me. | Jun 29 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | I know that | Jun 29 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | r u taking breakfast? | Jun 29 01:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] OMFG. First Michael and now Billy! Someone is systematically knocking off the world's most talented people! I better be careful... | Jun 29 01:17 | |
| oiaohm | Had breakfast about 3 hours ago. | Jun 29 01:17 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : did u use Mono for development before? | Jun 29 01:19 |
| oiaohm | Played with it then cursed it. | Jun 29 01:19 |
| oiaohm | Mono people compare it to likes of python and php. Yet it don't compare. Main advantage of php and python is not having to rebuild to run alterations. | Jun 29 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | Mono can be compared to Java | Jun 29 01:22 |
| oiaohm | http://vimeo.com/5137477 That is python pushed to limit. | Jun 29 01:22 |
| _Hicham_ | it does even have a java vm | Jun 29 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Java at one stage was ment to be the next big thing in application development too. | Jun 29 01:23 |
| _Hicham_ | but Java's approach is better than .NET's one | Jun 29 01:24 |
| oiaohm | vm is halfway between nativecode and stuff like php and python. Basically gains the worse disadvantages of both. | Jun 29 01:24 |
| oiaohm | I don't really like java either. | Jun 29 01:24 |
| oiaohm | If java really worked our desktops would be over run with java applications. | Jun 29 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Mono developers are learning nothing from history. | Jun 29 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Lets say we look at the java and .net idea and truly try to make it work. The check list you must tick off is the following. | Jun 29 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Must be light to use native platform libraries. | Jun 29 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Must use AOT so there is not overhead each time its run. | Jun 29 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Must be simple to make interface wrappers to native platform libraries prefered automatic. | Jun 29 01:28 |
| oiaohm | That is it. | Jun 29 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Vala has the light to native platform libraries sorted out. | Jun 29 01:29 |
| oiaohm | Its just missing a bytecode that is cpu netrual. | Jun 29 01:29 |
| oiaohm | Java and .net will both disappear into the history books when better tech appears. | Jun 29 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Its a bit like flash vs html5 lot of places flash is used will disappear. | Jun 29 01:31 |
| _Hicham_ | aren't GTK and QT enough? | Jun 29 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Vala uses GTK | Jun 29 01:32 |
| fewa | java is sloooooowwwwww | Jun 29 01:32 |
| _Hicham_ | do Vala have a chance to spread? | Jun 29 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | or just stand? | Jun 29 01:33 |
| fewa | i dont know why, but ever java app i have used seems slow | Jun 29 01:33 |
| fewa | even though the benchmarks for math and such may be high | Jun 29 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Vala is particularly design to work great with gnome. | Jun 29 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : do u use official sun jvm? | Jun 29 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | so no Vala with KDE | Jun 29 01:33 |
| fewa | i use openjdk, but i have used the official too | Jun 29 01:33 |
| ThistleWeb | not just slow, but some give you hassle if you're running an older java than it needs | Jun 29 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Vala provides like C# syntax around the gobject system _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:34 |
| fewa | its very unscientific | Jun 29 01:34 |
| ThistleWeb | I had no end of probs with Azureus on Windows ages ago | Jun 29 01:34 |
| oiaohm | There is no reason why C# like syntax could not be put on top of C++ for KDE support. | Jun 29 01:34 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : but I don't see yet any gnome app written in vala | Jun 29 01:34 |
| fewa | ughhh yeah ive used azureus before | Jun 29 01:34 |
| oiaohm | There are a few _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:34 |
| fewa | pre vuze days | Jun 29 01:34 |
| _Hicham_ | azureus is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slow | Jun 29 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Vala is younger than mono _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | and utorrent is very fast | Jun 29 01:35 |
| ThistleWeb | utorrent is great on windows, but I found Transmission suits me on Linux | Jun 29 01:35 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : give me an example | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | i like deluge | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | alot | Jun 29 01:35 |
| ThistleWeb | deluge is nice | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | good client-server capabilities | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | and webui | Jun 29 01:35 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : utorrent runs on Linux? | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | they officially support wine | Jun 29 01:35 |
| fewa | but i havnt really used it in linux | Jun 29 01:36 |
| ThistleWeb | I found a few niggles with deluge | Jun 29 01:36 |
| oiaohm | http://live.gnome.org/Vala scroll down _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:36 |
| ThistleWeb | after transmission got blocklist support I jumped ship | Jun 29 01:36 |
| fewa | ThistleWeb, which version? <=0.6 or post 0.9 ? | Jun 29 01:36 |
| fewa | deluge was completely rewritten | Jun 29 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | transmission seems faster, with less resources | Jun 29 01:37 |
| fewa | both transmission and deluge are based on libtorrent | Jun 29 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | ahh, it was before 0.6 I think | Jun 29 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | it may be worth giving it another go then | Jun 29 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | I had no idea it was rewritten | Jun 29 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | I do prefer the deluge UI | Jun 29 01:37 |
| fewa | also the UI and the daemon is seperate | Jun 29 01:38 |
| ThistleWeb | same with transmission | Jun 29 01:38 |
| ThistleWeb | both have a web ui too | Jun 29 01:38 |
| fewa | i just like the client server | Jun 29 01:38 |
| oiaohm | As Vala ages there will be more applications. Big advanage since Vala is gobject it can build new gobject features for gnome. _Hicham_ You cannot build new gobject features in mono. | Jun 29 01:38 |
| fewa | and the utorrent-like interface | Jun 29 01:38 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, the utorrent UI feels more natural for a torrent client | Jun 29 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | gobject is great | Jun 29 01:39 |
| fewa | transmission is probably good for people that only download a distro cd from time to time | Jun 29 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | i love transmission | Jun 29 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what about Google's work on Python? | Jun 29 01:41 |
| oiaohm | When you remember mono is not gobject compadbile does it really have a long time future on the gnome platform. _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Python is a heavly used scripting language. Speeding it up will help lots of applications. | Jun 29 01:42 |
| thenixedreport | http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono | Jun 29 01:42 |
| oiaohm | List includes kde plamsa features. | Jun 29 01:42 |
| ThistleWeb | 1 issue I had with deluge is when I have to download a torrent part at a time by selecting only some of it due to HD space, when deluge is paused or restarted it forgets that only part of the file is wanted, looks at the total size and tells me there's no space, and stops. I have to remove it, re-add it, recheck it etc to start again | Jun 29 01:43 |
| ThistleWeb | it's been maybe a year since I last tried it, so maybe that's fixed | Jun 29 01:43 |
| oiaohm | thenixedreport: dont depend on mono missed the big problem. | Jun 29 01:44 |
| oiaohm | Mono don't intergrate. So cannot be used for improving the Gnome platform. So its a waste of time. | Jun 29 01:44 |
| oiaohm | From a techincally point of view its unless. | Jun 29 01:45 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 01:45 | |
| oiaohm | Its not what mono developers want to hear that they are wasting there time. | Jun 29 01:45 |
| oiaohm | Next defence is the java defence its cross platform that is it feature. | Jun 29 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Sorry that does not protect it from being run under. | Jun 29 01:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @tracyrreed OMFG. First Michael and now Billy! Someone is systematically knocking off the world's most talented people! | Jun 29 01:47 | |
| oiaohm | http://code.google.com/p/tuntun/ vala is more interesting. Notice that platform were building a vala coded application does not require vala. | Jun 29 01:48 |
| oiaohm | You only require vala if you want to edit the vala code. | Jun 29 01:48 |
| _Hicham_ | no vala runtime? | Jun 29 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Vala has no runtime. | Jun 29 01:48 |
| oiaohm | All its runtime parts come from standard gobject bits. | Jun 29 01:49 |
| oiaohm | Some takes Vala design adds a cross platform byte code and mono is dead in water. | Jun 29 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | so vala add just c# syntax on top of gobject? | Jun 29 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 29 01:51 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.20.52) has left #boycottnovell | Jun 29 01:52 | |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.20.52) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 01:52 | |
| oiaohm | Yep repeat for _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:53 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : why distros package mono if there is a risk? | Jun 29 01:53 |
| ha ha, M$ is pissing on the Enterprise now. http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218101670 | Jun 29 01:53 | |
| oiaohm | http://code.google.com/p/vala-benchmarks/wiki/BenchResults << Look at the benchmarks _Hicham_ | Jun 29 01:54 |
| pushing the hated Software Assurance plan -> Silver [the idiot who lied to the EU about Linux] said Microsoft may be limiting the number of PCs eligible for upgrades in order to goose sales of its Software Assurance licenses to businesses. Under Software Assurance, companies pay between $100 and $150 per PC for the right to unlimited upgrades at no additional cost for three years. | Jun 29 01:55 | |
| M$ shill says, "demand Vista 7" | Jun 29 01:56 | |
| _Hicham_ | wow | Jun 29 01:56 |
| _Hicham_ | the vala is really fast | Jun 29 01:56 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: basically mono people pushing mono is the only reason distrobutions puting it in. | Jun 29 01:56 |
| _Hicham_ | the crazy Miguel de Icaza? | Jun 29 01:56 |
| oiaohm | And others. | Jun 29 01:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More on Microsoft-funded Comments http://ping.fm/ni339 | Jun 29 01:57 | |
| oiaohm | Vala at this stage only produces native binaries. | Jun 29 01:57 |
| oiaohm | If it ever starts being a bytecode mono is so dead. | Jun 29 01:57 |
| _Hicham_ | why do we need a bytecode? | Jun 29 01:58 |
| oiaohm | CPU neturality. | Jun 29 01:58 |
| oiaohm | And size. | Jun 29 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Source code takes lot of processing time. | Jun 29 01:58 |
| oiaohm | If you could ship like gcc internal bytecode with still cpu netural of the executable processing to native would be faster. | Jun 29 01:59 |
| jose_X | twitter, i don't know how, but i expect ms's eu upgrade decision has more to it than what they ms claims are the reasons. | Jun 29 02:00 |
| oiaohm | Gcc and llvm with link time optimisation both open up a path around mono. | Jun 29 02:00 |
| oiaohm | For cross platform support from a single file. But with far better platform intergration. | Jun 29 02:01 |
| M$ never comes clean. | Jun 29 02:01 | |
| oiaohm | Time will kill .net. | Jun 29 02:01 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm guessing the plan is to introduce false scarcity, tipping your hand into fighting for some extra value as you'll believe you'll have to upgrade anyway, so why not now | Jun 29 02:01 |
| it's always worse than you hear or read | Jun 29 02:01 | |
| jose_X | oiaohm, i am surprised in all of these years a gcc IR to compete with mono/java hasn't been developed | Jun 29 02:02 |
| ThistleWeb | if you had to wheel and deal for something it gives you a sense that you gained something | Jun 29 02:02 |
| jose_X | i guess there is no sponsor for this with sufficient interest | Jun 29 02:02 |
| ThistleWeb | that report also states that Microsoft are imposing the resitrictions, but encourage buisnesses to haggle with OEMs who have leeway; in other words take it out of the OEMs pocket, not Microsofts | Jun 29 02:03 |
| jose_X | ms also painted the eu commission as responsible.. any supposed pain or costs because of this decision might lead to rallying behind ms -- so ms might hope. | Jun 29 02:04 |
| oiaohm | jose_X: there is interest problem is internals of gcc. | Jun 29 02:05 |
| jose_X | "i guess there is no sponsor for this with sufficient interest" this comment was wrt gcc/vala etc and not the ms eu ie8 upgrade issue | Jun 29 02:05 |
| ThistleWeb | the EU haven't stayed shtum though, they've said to any pro-M$ shills in interviews that Microsoft jumped the gun with IE, that unbundlung was never an option the EU were considering, and that decision along with all it's ripples is Microsoft's alone | Jun 29 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Before you can make a platform netural byte code you need lto to work with gcc basically jose_X | Jun 29 02:06 |
| jose_X | lto? | Jun 29 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Platform netural byte code would speed up distribution multi platform building no need. | Jun 29 02:06 |
| ThistleWeb | I should have said "a Windows without any browser" was never an option they were looking at | Jun 29 02:07 |
| oiaohm | lto=link time optimisation. | Jun 29 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Its a branch of gcc jose_X | Jun 29 02:07 |
| *ThistleWeb gone | Jun 29 02:07 | |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jun 29 02:07 | |
| oiaohm | You think about all the build time that could be saved building items like libc to a platform netural byte code performing all the platform netural optmisations. | Jun 29 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Then converting that platform netural bytecode to the platform target. | Jun 29 02:08 |
| jose_X | right | Jun 29 02:09 |
| oiaohm | There is lot of interest. | Jun 29 02:09 |
| oiaohm | Making it work not simple. | Jun 29 02:09 |
| jose_X | i don't follow gcc but i thought the mono controversy way back would have led to something happening from gcc | Jun 29 02:09 |
| oiaohm | It did. | Jun 29 02:09 |
| oiaohm | That is when how bad the internals of gcc was found. | Jun 29 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Lot of work trying to fix the mess has been going on. | Jun 29 02:10 |
| jose_X | i figure that all the building work that happens anyway just needs to be packaged properly | Jun 29 02:10 |
| jose_X | oh | Jun 29 02:10 |
| oiaohm | By design gcc was meant to have a central data struct. | Jun 29 02:11 |
| oiaohm | But many hacky patches over the years for c++ c and so on had been applied that did not use the central data struct. | Jun 29 02:11 |
| jose_X | how do things look now | Jun 29 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Ie the mess. | Jun 29 02:12 |
| oiaohm | The developers are now working on cleaning it up. | Jun 29 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Without the mess gcc would have nailed mono to the wall by now. | Jun 29 02:13 |
| jose_X | i read some pieces trying to describe gcc internals (from their website). this gives the impression things were/are organized and clean enough to have started a format and protocol | Jun 29 02:13 |
| jose_X | .. by now | Jun 29 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Its not complete | Jun 29 02:14 |
| jose_X | but i guess things really were messier | Jun 29 02:14 |
| oiaohm | They are still moving to a central protocal. | Jun 29 02:14 |
| oiaohm | It will become well organized in time. | Jun 29 02:14 |
| oiaohm | The Linux kernel is also going threw a organisational clean up. | Jun 29 02:15 |
| oiaohm | When lto branch merges main line you will know the internals of gcc are clean jose_X. | Jun 29 02:16 |
| jose_X | thanks oiaohm .... | Jun 29 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Basically each version of gcc is getting cleaner. | Jun 29 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Until one day it will be clean. | Jun 29 02:20 |
| oiaohm | http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/LinkTimeOptimization Number 10 on there todo list is to be able to read gimple the internal bytecode of gcc as a input file. | Jun 29 02:22 |
| _Hicham_ | when link time optimization is gonna be implemented | Jun 29 02:26 |
| jose_X | i guess the gcc people prefer solving the problem well rather than according to marketing. | Jun 29 02:29 |
| jose_X | not to say there aren't problems, but it looks like they are trying to get decent mileage out of their efforts | Jun 29 02:31 |
| jose_X | bang for buck is what I am getting at | Jun 29 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | everyone is contributing to gcc | Jun 29 02:35 |
| _Hicham_ | biggest contributor is RedHat | Jun 29 02:35 |
| _Hicham_ | in corporate field | Jun 29 02:35 |
| jose_X | i'm looking at these from the outside. "marketing" can drive projects to completion. you make compromises along the way but you get a product quicker | Jun 29 02:37 |
| jose_X | also, foss groups like to contribute.. vs. compete (copy) for the sake of competing to make someone else's bucks or preserve your income stream | Jun 29 02:38 |
| jose_X | red hat also takes the slower path .. or they would not be major contributors of so many projects and would be looking for more and more hooks | Jun 29 02:39 |
| _Hicham_ | what do u mean by the slower path? | Jun 29 02:40 |
| jose_X | "it will be done when it is done" | Jun 29 02:41 |
| jose_X | meaning, it we will try to let developers guide the project instead of marketing | Jun 29 02:41 |
| jose_X | i'm not speaking specifically for redhat but for foss more generally | Jun 29 02:42 |
| _Hicham_ | I see | Jun 29 02:42 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu is focusing on marketing more | Jun 29 02:42 |
| jose_X | well, i am looking at this from the outside but developers can usually make better judgments over tech aspects than can marketing | Jun 29 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | I like to see that a product is done when it is done | Jun 29 02:43 |
| jose_X | marketing adds further constraints. the less constraints, the more can be achieved | Jun 29 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | Fedora has a fixed release cycle | Jun 29 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | nonetheless, it has been delayed many times | Jun 29 02:44 |
| jose_X | also, try to rush artists can you can end up with a mess | Jun 29 02:44 |
| jose_X | a lot of software is not scientific (especially when you push bound) but instead benefits from creativity and time | Jun 29 02:44 |
| _Hicham_ | Fedora has the greatest artwork | Jun 29 02:45 |
| jose_X | the cycle might be fixed, but they can cut back on what goes in or simply be less ambitious | Jun 29 02:45 |
| _Hicham_ | Ideally, desktop distributions should follow Fedora model | Jun 29 02:45 |
| jose_X | rhat and noncommercial entities have less pressures from marketing and stockholders.. especially to sacrifice long term quality for short term results | Jun 29 02:45 |
| _Hicham_ | I hate distros that just package things | Jun 29 02:46 |
| jose_X | i think most people that come up with a distro that would be popular are contributing/ adding value beyond repackaging. | Jun 29 02:47 |
| distros are repackaging | Jun 29 02:48 | |
| why do you hate people who do what they should? | Jun 29 02:48 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : packaging should be followed by contributions | Jun 29 02:49 |
| _Hicham_ | and upstreaming patches | Jun 29 02:49 |
| those come as they do | Jun 29 02:49 | |
| take what it gives | Jun 29 02:50 | |
| give what you like, it's all so easy | Jun 29 02:51 | |
| _Hicham_ | the big contributors are RedHat and Novell | Jun 29 02:51 |
| _Hicham_ | those are the entities that make up the Linux ecosystem | Jun 29 02:51 |
| What does Novell contribute? | Jun 29 02:52 | |
| *Nostradumbass (n=account@ool-45732edc.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 02:53 | |
| *Nostradumbass (n=account@ool-45732edc.dyn.optonline.net) has left #boycottnovell | Jun 29 02:53 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/lpc_2008_keynote.html | Jun 29 02:54 |
| jose_X | backtracking for a second: rht depends on marketing and stockholders but they don't own gcc.. | Jun 29 02:58 |
| nice. What I see there is that about 80,000 of the 100,000 kernel patches come from individuals rather than distributions or companies. This is as free software should be. | Jun 29 02:58 | |
| _Hicham_ | no one owns gcc | Jun 29 02:58 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, you neglect the community distrobution | Jun 29 02:58 |
| fewa | its the comminity of the distro that submits patches | Jun 29 02:59 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : I was talking just about corporate contributions | Jun 29 02:59 |
| _Hicham_ | not about community contributions | Jun 29 02:59 |
| fewa | thats the main problem with ubuntu | Jun 29 02:59 |
| fewa | they keep internal way to many of their changes | Jun 29 02:59 |
| There will always be more free software users than there are people who work for distributions. | Jun 29 02:59 | |
| Statements like, "(07:08:50 PM) _Hicham_: the big contributors are RedHat and Novell" miss the point of software freedom. | Jun 29 03:00 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : Big contributors in corporate area | Jun 29 03:00 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, RedHat hires those who contribute, not the other way around | Jun 29 03:00 |
| Sure, but "big" is still less than 19,000. | Jun 29 03:00 | |
| _Hicham_ | community contributions make up the most of Linux | Jun 29 03:00 |
| right | Jun 29 03:01 | |
| _Hicham_ | compared to total contributions, yes | Jun 29 03:01 |
| _Hicham_ | in corporate field, it means a lot | Jun 29 03:01 |
| *ToXedVirus2 has quit () | Jun 29 03:22 | |
| Hmmm. Novell may be a "big contributor" but they are an enemy of software freedom. | Jun 29 03:25 | |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 29 03:30 | |
| wow, big upgrade for Lenny. 141 packages and 231 MB of downloads for me. Whew. | Jun 29 03:42 | |
| supposedly described here http://www.tectonic.co.za/?page_id=2754&bid=8280 | Jun 29 03:42 | |
| also noted here http://www.debian.org/News/2009/20090627 | Jun 29 03:43 | |
| I've been lazy. | Jun 29 03:44 | |
| jose_X | gn | Jun 29 03:59 |
| Acer sold out. This is older news, but I missed it. http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20090604PD215.html | Jun 29 04:04 | |
| Dual boot instead of a simple Android only option. | Jun 29 04:05 | |
| fewa | http://commons.oreilly.com/wiki/index.php/Greasemonkey_Hacks/Getting_Started#Avoid_Common_Pitfalls wow, very interesting on the security problems of javascript | Jun 29 04:13 |
| fewa | and about the greasemonkey sandbox | Jun 29 04:13 |
| Now I see why some sites have been screwing up. | Jun 29 04:18 | |
| Here's an example. http://www.macnewsworld.com/story/web20/67329.html?wlc=1246245885 | Jun 29 04:18 | |
| the java script for the advertisement is ugly and hangs konqueror, Epiphany and Iceweasel in Lenny. | Jun 29 04:19 | |
| The answer for it was netsurf, a browser much like dillo was. | Jun 29 04:19 | |
| oiaohm | I am running iceweasel from unstable branch. | Jun 29 04:24 |
| hmmm, as I suspected, an article that comes with problems for konq is not worth reading. | Jun 29 04:24 | |
| oiaohm | My current debian is part way between lenny testing and unstable. | Jun 29 04:27 |
| oiaohm | A state most people are not aware you can do. | Jun 29 04:27 |
| fewa | twitter, try my adblock element hiding stuff | Jun 29 04:28 |
| fewa | macnewsworld.com###container > :not(#middlewrapper) | Jun 29 04:28 |
| fewa | macnewsworld.com###middlewrapper > :not(#content-main) | Jun 29 04:28 |
| fewa | macnewsworld.com##.content-block > :not(.story-body):not(#story-social):not(.title):not(.story-byline) | Jun 29 04:28 |
| fewa | not sure if KHTML has good support for :not | Jun 29 04:29 |
| fewa | perhaps i should publish my list | Jun 29 04:30 |
| oiaohm | I refer to debian stable. As the predictable buggy. | Jun 29 04:30 |
| fewa | oiaohm, thats the other problem with ubuntu, they only compile to the current system | Jun 29 04:31 |
| fewa | they have no art of dependancies | Jun 29 04:31 |
| I just noticed what macnews world was advertising, crystalreports | Jun 29 04:31 | |
| fewa | and they also change version nuber to have profixes which screw up mixing with debian | Jun 29 04:31 |
| fewa | macnewsworld.com###welcome-box | Jun 29 04:31 |
| fewa | i could also make a quick script to hide all those ECT pre-rolls | Jun 29 04:32 |
| *ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 29 04:34 | |
| *jose_X has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 04:53 | |
| *sean (n=SeanTill@173-29-123-36.client.mchsi.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 05:22 | |
| *sean is now known as SeanTilley | Jun 29 05:22 | |
| SeanTilley | Hey hey. | Jun 29 05:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nandanator] Week has begun... and so does the battle ;) | Jun 29 05:37 | |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 05:42 | |
| SeanTilley | Wow, it's already Monday. | Jun 29 05:52 |
| SeanTilley | Lame. | Jun 29 05:52 |
| SeanTilley | So is it relatively easy to build Chromium with HTML5 video support? | Jun 29 05:54 |
| SeanTilley | I'm thinking of replacing my Firefox on my laptop since the binary was way speedier, I'm just curious about compiling it all from source. | Jun 29 05:54 |
| *mikankun (n=mikankun@unaffiliated/angelfly) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 05:55 | |
| The Journal company that created fake journals to sell drugs that killed people also pays for shill reviews -> It's no surprise that the recent actions of science publisher Elsevier caused a storm. The firm offered a $25 (£15) Amazon voucher to academics who contributed to the textbook Clinical Psychology if they would go on Amazon and Barnes & Noble (a large US books retailer) and give it five stars. Elsevier was quick to disown | Jun 29 06:06 | |
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8118577.stm | Jun 29 06:07 | |
| shameless | Jun 29 06:07 | |
| *Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.17.137.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 06:10 | |
| Go directly to jail. http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/06/27 | Jun 29 06:13 | |
| ahhh, -> Unthinkable blurs the line between fiction and reality, the story is based on a real-life government think tank where a writer was tasked to design worst-case terror scenarios. The fictional story of Unthinkable unfolds when the writer's scenarios come true, and he becomes a suspect in the terrorist attacks. | Jun 29 06:30 | |
| The author was detained as a terrorist for having a script of the above story. Reality dumber than a comic book. http://sfscope.com/2009/05/comics-artist-mark-sable-detai.html | Jun 29 06:31 | |
| *neighborlee has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 06:42 | |
| fewa | unjustifyable coercion | Jun 29 07:41 |
| fewa | twitter, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV9KgQmEJtc Chomsky analyses this well | Jun 29 07:46 |
| fewa | oh its in pt 4 | Jun 29 07:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Prepares a Bogus Study to Defend Abandonment of American Workforce http://ping.fm/mfEtV | Jun 29 07:57 | |
| schestowitz | CoercionForToddlers(R) | Jun 29 08:28 |
| *PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 08:33 | |
| *Omar87 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 29 08:40 | |
| *Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.231.24.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 08:41 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Anti-competitive Dumping of Software Faces Challenges in Africa and in Indiana http://ping.fm/z8KSu | Jun 29 08:57 | |
| *harrytuttle (i=528c0ab2@gateway/web/freenode/x-a33299a40378cddf) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 09:06 | |
| *fewa has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 29 09:14 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Windows and Advertising http://ping.fm/MXVEe | Jun 29 09:22 | |
| *magentar (n=magentar@94.79.136.202) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 09:42 | |
| amarsh04 | hmm... swine flu vaccine trial volunteers wanted: http://www.csl.com.au/s1/cs/auhq/1182280826145/news/1244834451885/prdetail.htm | Jun 29 09:51 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 09:53 | |
| *ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 09:55 | |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-196-62.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 10:02 | |
| schestowitz | They should recruit swines. | Jun 29 10:04 |
| amarsh04 | hehehe... I might try to volunteer schestowitz... I did volunteer last year and it was reasonable, they even gave me a cheque for $50 for my troubles | Jun 29 10:07 |
| schestowitz | I wonder at what capacity will it be possible to publish in Datamation. I know it has been a long time since I last wrote anything... | Jun 29 10:08 |
| schestowitz | Maybe I'll get back to it soon. It's summer, so there's free time for it | Jun 29 10:08 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: did you really get troubles? | Jun 29 10:08 |
| amarsh04 | no side effects, just the trouble of turning up for injections and blood samples being taken | Jun 29 10:09 |
| amarsh04 | I've been disappointed that some articles in IEEE spectrum have not be rigorous, making claims that weren't backed by data | Jun 29 10:10 |
| schestowitz | Maybe cheapening of research | Jun 29 10:11 |
| schestowitz | Same happens to news | Jun 29 10:11 |
| schestowitz | In the past you had teams/convoys doing invetigations | Jun 29 10:11 |
| schestowitz | Now it's too expensive to be worth it | Jun 29 10:11 |
| schestowitz | "Dark Clouds over the Gates Foundation" is one example | Jun 29 10:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Assault on the Web, Rival Web Browsers, and HTML http://ping.fm/BQPJ3 | Jun 29 10:12 | |
| schestowitz | "[PJ: Speaking of litigation as an underhanded anticompetitive weapon, here's UserFriendly back in 2007, on a new job for Darl.] - UserFriendly" http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20070925 | Jun 29 10:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] What People Say About Microsoft’s Alleged Anti-Linux Lawsuit (via T3) http://ping.fm/QhTGB | Jun 29 10:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] mmm, brains. a good day to hide inside from the furious daystar. | Jun 29 11:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and Novell Still Fight for .NET Inside GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/5cQuc | Jun 29 11:37 | |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 11:46 | |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.83.16.73) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 11:51 | |
| ziggyfish | schestowitz, thanks for the mention :) | Jun 29 12:10 |
| schestowitz | No problem | Jun 29 12:10 |
| schestowitz | Did they really cancel it? | Jun 29 12:10 |
| schestowitz | I read it twice, failed to make such a conviction | Jun 29 12:10 |
| *gruven has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 12:13 | |
| *gruven (n=gruven@72-161-81-243.dyn.centurytel.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 12:15 | |
| *ugufjhfj (n=ugufjhfj@74.56.226.213) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 12:18 | |
| *tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 12:28 | |
| harrytuttle | hello | Jun 29 12:29 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Jun 29 12:30 |
| harrytuttle | is now another software client for irc? | Jun 29 12:30 |
| schestowitz | yes | Jun 29 12:30 |
| schestowitz | old one closed | Jun 29 12:30 |
| harrytuttle | harder to read now | Jun 29 12:30 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.83.16.73) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 12:32 | |
| schestowitz | It has just occurred to me that no Linspire/Xandros desktops are ever released | Jun 29 12:33 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft shut them down as proper distributors | Jun 29 12:33 |
| tacone | uh ? | Jun 29 12:34 |
| *tabletop (i=7cb33ef6@gateway/web/freenode/x-2ff205e343703ae8) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 12:36 | |
| ziggyfish | schestowitz, I think they did | Jun 29 12:36 |
| harrytuttle | as for Mono: imho it's not really helpful in the long run to ponder on its bloatware... it might be true, but then same could be said about Eclipse... Mono and MonoDev do scratch a technical itch and it will even get better over time with MS sponsoring in the background to work on it | Jun 29 12:37 |
| oiaohm | If you take the ideas why .net was created they are good. Implementation suxs big time. | Jun 29 12:38 |
| harrytuttle | technical defiencies could be overcome, the political ones probably stay the same | Jun 29 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Not really harrytuttle | Jun 29 12:38 |
| oiaohm | vala over comes the technical defiencies. | Jun 29 12:38 |
| oiaohm | But its no longer .net standard. | Jun 29 12:39 |
| harrytuttle | so to me of you follow bn over time, its becoming clear that the most valid point why Mono should be rejected lies in MS-specific behaviour | Jun 29 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Processor independent bytecode is a good idea. But a processor independant bytecode that requires complex wrappers to interface with platform native bits is basically useless. | Jun 29 12:40 |
| oiaohm | The idea of a processor independant bytecode would be great in gcc. | Jun 29 12:41 |
| harrytuttle | the behaviour to threat over their patents | Jun 29 12:41 |
| harrytuttle | they cant threat effectively over Java, as it would be seen as another SCO | Jun 29 12:41 |
| ziggyfish | I'm getting a new PC (Dell Studio XPS Desktop (S210303AU)), one of the components (Dell 1505 Wireless-N PCIe Card (802.11 a/b/g/n compliant) ) doesn't seem to work with Linux | Jun 29 12:41 |
| harrytuttle | they can only threat by casting FUD over what the public perceives as their own | Jun 29 12:41 |
| oiaohm | Technical defiencies of .net and java are that bad they only way to cure them is create something that works. | Jun 29 12:41 |
| harrytuttle | like FAT | Jun 29 12:42 |
| oiaohm | FAT will be come a no issue soon enough. | Jun 29 12:42 |
| ziggyfish | I complained to them on the 27/06/2009, and still haven't receive a response | Jun 29 12:42 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel developers have worked out a way to use it avoiding using patented sections. | Jun 29 12:42 |
| harrytuttle | java or gnu/linux doesnt "belong" to them even if they do own patents related to them | Jun 29 12:42 |
| harrytuttle | with .Net, the image is more of a copyright thing when FUDing "IP" | Jun 29 12:43 |
| oiaohm | Mono fails on 2 grounds. | Jun 29 12:43 |
| tabletop | The base technologies submitted to the ECMA, and therefore also the Unix/GNOME-specific parts, may be non-problematic. The concerns primarily relate to technologies developed my Microsoft on top of the .NET Framework, suck as ASP.NET, ADO, NET and Windows Forms. Ie parts composing Mono’s Windows compatibility stack. These technologies are today not fully implemented in Mono and not required for developing Mono-applicat | Jun 29 12:43 |
| harrytuttle | right | Jun 29 12:43 |
| oiaohm | Unknown patent state and incompadible design. | Jun 29 12:43 |
| oiaohm | .net works around the idea of PE format executables. | Jun 29 12:44 |
| harrytuttle | so if mono wants to be competetive, it has to incorporate those non-covered technologies somehow | Jun 29 12:44 |
| oiaohm | That are not native Linux executables. | Jun 29 12:44 |
| oiaohm | So don't intergrate. | Jun 29 12:44 |
| MinceR | "submitted to the ECMA" by itself means very little, afaik | Jun 29 12:44 |
| harrytuttle | risking patent FUD | Jun 29 12:44 |
| tabletop | yes on windows | Jun 29 12:44 |
| tabletop | thats right there are part not submitted | Jun 29 12:44 |
| oiaohm | harrytuttle: you create a standard there is no need to keep patent status secret. | Jun 29 12:44 |
| ziggyfish | I'll see if I get a response before I get the PC | Jun 29 12:45 |
| tabletop | Thats right they are the "non-standard" or undocumentated API's | Jun 29 12:45 |
| oiaohm | History of patent creators and keeping patent status secrect. | Jun 29 12:45 |
| oiaohm | On standards | Jun 29 12:45 |
| oiaohm | Is particularly bad. | Jun 29 12:45 |
| harrytuttle | i think Mono gives MS not more "real" chances to sue than over Java-patents, but the perception that this is something leggit for MS to sue over and bully corporations may be much better | Jun 29 12:45 |
| oiaohm | Sun openly stated the patent status of java. | Jun 29 12:46 |
| schestowitz | oracle won't sue Linux | Jun 29 12:46 |
| schestowitz | Oracle is to own Java | Jun 29 12:46 |
| harrytuttle | they dont want to go length in court (as with FAT and TomTom), but they want to extort and FUD the competition without being viewed as SCO | Jun 29 12:46 |
| oiaohm | And that they would not apply there patents against anyone implementing java for ever. | Jun 29 12:46 |
| schestowitz | And Ellison, as I pointed out hours ago, slammed Microsoft for the SCO thing | Jun 29 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Oracle could not even take that back now. | Jun 29 12:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: OIN Addresses Patent Trolls Issue, Public Patent Foundation Video, and More http://ping.fm/Lacfw | Jun 29 12:47 | |
| oiaohm | Patent status of java is known harrytuttle | Jun 29 12:47 |
| oiaohm | We are not asking for anything that complex really. | Jun 29 12:47 |
| oiaohm | All press releases from MS suggest Novell is the only one with a valid licence to ship mono. | Jun 29 12:47 |
| oiaohm | If that is incorrect press releases MS or Novell could publish a correction. | Jun 29 12:48 |
| oiaohm | So its not patent fud. | Jun 29 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Its a case of neither MS or Novell stepping up and clearing the issue up. harrytuttle | Jun 29 12:48 |
| schestowitz | Yes, even Miguel worries about it | Jun 29 12:49 |
| tabletop | which may be their plan (of attack) | Jun 29 12:49 |
| schestowitz | He knows it's damaging | Jun 29 12:49 |
| harrytuttle | yep, they want the other dist to become infected | Jun 29 12:49 |
| schestowitz | but Novell and MS won't clarify | Jun 29 12:49 |
| schestowitz | Serves them well | Jun 29 12:50 |
| schestowitz | Like SCO's reluctance to show the so-called plagiarism | Jun 29 12:50 |
| schestowitz | FUD is in the details, not 'the' details | Jun 29 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Really it will not matter long term. | Jun 29 12:50 |
| harrytuttle | yes, it serves them like FAT to bully the competetion later... not actually sue this thing in court | Jun 29 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Mono people got upset over gnote because it showed how fast a c# application could be ported. | Jun 29 12:50 |
| harrytuttle | if no white knight steps in for debian, then what | Jun 29 12:51 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: also how fast it runs | Jun 29 12:51 |
| harrytuttle | any other projects besides gnote to be ported over? | Jun 29 12:51 |
| schestowitz | Like 10 times faster to launch are far less RAM | Jun 29 12:51 |
| oiaohm | .net is following the same cycle java did a long time ago. | Jun 29 12:51 |
| schestowitz | Basically, it's side-by-side proof that Mono (/Tomboy) is a resource pig | Jun 29 12:51 |
| oiaohm | Remember when java was popular. | Jun 29 12:51 |
| tacone | http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25967/1231/ gnome 3.0 to include more mono apps ? | Jun 29 12:52 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: it still is | Jun 29 12:52 |
| oiaohm | People were running around saying it would do everything. | Jun 29 12:52 |
| schestowitz | Most popular in fact | Jun 29 12:52 |
| *tabletop has quit ("Page closed") | Jun 29 12:52 | |
| oiaohm | Many years latter that faded. | Jun 29 12:52 |
| harrytuttle | but then if Mono starts to become leggit for devs, all those apps that could flood gnome or kde cant be ported over | Jun 29 12:52 |
| oiaohm | Mono simply cannot. | Jun 29 12:52 |
| *tabletop (i=7cb33ef6@gateway/web/freenode/x-5e1ddd3e33540d4d) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 12:53 | |
| oiaohm | Vala from gnome as it matures will basically beat the crap out of .net on speed and performance while basically being C# like language. | Jun 29 12:53 |
| harrytuttle | it needs to be kept in a cage, and not run freely default | Jun 29 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Mono will be pushed a side by better tech. | Jun 29 12:53 |
| harrytuttle | oiaohm: i wouldnt bet on a superiour technology , because only what is widespread and well-known accepted will pervail... if we happen to let mono become a useful tool to the ones who dont care | Jun 29 12:54 |
| harrytuttle | then other technologies become irrelevant (betamax, vhs) | Jun 29 12:54 |
| oiaohm | Speed of applications is always important. | Jun 29 12:55 |
| oiaohm | Just like price of tapes. | Jun 29 12:55 |
| harrytuttle | mono matures with the resources from ms/novell | Jun 29 12:55 |
| ziggyfish | oiaohm, I believe money is more important | Jun 29 12:55 |
| harrytuttle | also convienience for the programmers | Jun 29 12:56 |
| harrytuttle | if its default and comes with a nice frontend / ide, then people will use it more | Jun 29 12:56 |
| ziggyfish | if Microsoft can't make money out of Linux, it will simply force costs on Linux | Jun 29 12:56 |
| oiaohm | Vala provides the same kind of language convienience to programmers. | Jun 29 12:56 |
| harrytuttle | well, python does, but its the ide that could prove really nice also | Jun 29 12:57 |
| ziggyfish | oiaohm, Vala, know of any documentation on the Language | Jun 29 12:57 |
| harrytuttle | its the "whole package": runtime, nice "integration", monodev | Jun 29 12:57 |
| oiaohm | http://live.gnome.org/Vala | Jun 29 12:57 |
| oiaohm | Vala skips the runtime bit harrytuttle | Jun 29 12:58 |
| oiaohm | And its lining up to use monodevelop as one of its development frontends. | Jun 29 12:58 |
| harrytuttle | then marketing: everyone at least knows .NET | Jun 29 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Sorry mono has no intergration advantage. | Jun 29 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Marketing is the only card .net has. | Jun 29 12:59 |
| harrytuttle | oiaohm: i know, but some people make sure by inlcuding it and make stuff dependant that it does | Jun 29 12:59 |
| MinceR | not everyone knows c and c++ now? :> | Jun 29 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Vala also will make it simpler to port .net applications. | Jun 29 13:00 |
| oiaohm | away from .net. | Jun 29 13:00 |
| harrytuttle | vala is like gnu/linux: starting as superiour tech but takes forever to beat something backed up and marketed like -net | Jun 29 13:00 |
| oiaohm | Mono intergrating with llvm also threatens to under mine .net as well. | Jun 29 13:00 |
| oiaohm | Vala is cross platform harrytuttle | Jun 29 13:01 |
| MinceR | harrytuttle: gnu/linux is winning already :> | Jun 29 13:01 |
| oiaohm | it does work on windows and mac already. | Jun 29 13:01 |
| oiaohm | Simple raw performance it runs rings around .net. | Jun 29 13:01 |
| harrytuttle | is android opensource? | Jun 29 13:02 |
| oiaohm | Vala is younger tech. | Jun 29 13:02 |
| ziggyfish | yes | Jun 29 13:02 |
| oiaohm | So Vala has not had as much time to get marketed. | Jun 29 13:02 |
| oiaohm | Android is fully open source. | Jun 29 13:02 |
| harrytuttle | zig: what license? | Jun 29 13:02 |
| oiaohm | BSD and GPL harrytuttle | Jun 29 13:02 |
| harrytuttle | so if google would abondon it someone could pcik it up and market it under another name? | Jun 29 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Kernel alterations for android are going main line Linux. | Jun 29 13:03 |
| tabletop | thats where the patent issues will come in its with .NET which is basically a library of functions written in C#, if you create those functions in any language you may be breaching a patent. | Jun 29 13:03 |
| tabletop | So if you can use C# and wwrite your own .NET suite you "might" be ok.. i don know | Jun 29 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Vala has major advantages for gnome over mono. | Jun 29 13:04 |
| ziggyfish | tabletop, I'm worried about the same type of issue, although Vala is not Mono, it may still be breaching patents | Jun 29 13:05 |
| oiaohm | Since Vala is purely based around the gobject system it perfectly intergrates into gnome. | Jun 29 13:05 |
| tacone | no, android is not fully opensource. | Jun 29 13:05 |
| oiaohm | What is closed tacone | Jun 29 13:05 |
| tabletop | thats right you can breach those patents with any language | Jun 29 13:05 |
| tacone | they claim to have some binary blobs here and there | Jun 29 13:05 |
| oiaohm | Some drivers. | Jun 29 13:05 |
| tacone | that was from a google guy, i don't remember where I read that. | Jun 29 13:06 |
| oiaohm | Nothing that you require to create something compadible with android. | Jun 29 13:06 |
| tacone | oiaohm: also http://www.stefanoforenza.com/early-android-sdk-brings-voice-recognition/ | Jun 29 13:06 |
| tacone | sure, needed things are open sourced. | Jun 29 13:06 |
| ziggyfish | there are some closed source stuff in android | Jun 29 13:07 |
| oiaohm | Linux has some closed source part options as well. | Jun 29 13:08 |
| ziggyfish | it was thought, that is would allow google to control android | Jun 29 13:08 |
| ziggyfish | oiaohm, true | Jun 29 13:08 |
| oiaohm | I class android as fully open source due to the fact you can build a clone off android from what is provided. | Jun 29 13:09 |
| ziggyfish | trye | Jun 29 13:09 |
| oiaohm | Few closed source features lost here and there. Nothing that blocks application compadiblity. | Jun 29 13:09 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Louie is on Cbeebies. It's a French cartoon dubbed into English. There's a snail character with a bad fake French accent. WHY?? | Jun 29 13:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNOME’s Evolution Proceeds as Planned? < http://ping.fm/31gye > | Jun 29 13:12 | |
| schestowitz | The Economics of Privacy in Social Networks http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2009/06/26/the-economics-of-privacy-in-social-networks/ | Jun 29 13:15 |
| MinceR | it's java-only crap currently anyway | Jun 29 13:17 |
| oiaohm | Not quite. | Jun 29 13:18 |
| oiaohm | You can use a little native code on it. Google is softerning. | Jun 29 13:18 |
| tacone | google released a sdk for native code recently | Jun 29 13:19 |
| tacone | you don't even need anymore to hack the bad way | Jun 29 13:19 |
| MinceR | yes, a little. embedded into java code. | Jun 29 13:19 |
| tacone | well, you can hack it as normal linux system | Jun 29 13:19 |
| MinceR | so no c, no c++, no x11, no GPE | Jun 29 13:19 |
| oiaohm | C and C++ yes. | Jun 29 13:20 |
| schestowitz | A Wandering Mind Heads Straight Toward Insight < http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124535297048828601.html > | Jun 29 13:20 |
| tacone | the desktop environment is java only yes. | Jun 29 13:20 |
| MinceR | yes, you can hack it, but that won't make their apis available to your apps. | Jun 29 13:20 |
| tacone | but you can script it in LUA and python | Jun 29 13:20 |
| MinceR | so you can't do anything with the phone or sms or gps or the compass | Jun 29 13:20 |
| tacone | well, i guess that using the ndk can solve that. | Jun 29 13:21 |
| tacone | sure the code is wrapped into java but should be fast anyways. | Jun 29 13:21 |
| oiaohm | Google wants the applications for android to be processor netural. | Jun 29 13:21 |
| MinceR | well, maybe you can get away with a java app interfacing you with the apis. | Jun 29 13:22 |
| MinceR | but it's a horrible mess | Jun 29 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Android will be interesting to watch it play out. | Jun 29 13:22 |
| MinceR | i wish they got some clue and cleaned up the design. | Jun 29 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the issue is a lack of a processor netrual bytecode for c and c++ | Jun 29 13:22 |
| MinceR | they could move the api to something sane and layer the java api on top of it, like everyone with a clue does. | Jun 29 13:22 |
| MinceR | i don't see what all the processor-neutrality is about when everybody is using ARM anyway. | Jun 29 13:23 |
| oiaohm | There is really a large gap in the world for processor netrual. | Jun 29 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Sorry its arm or mips MinceR | Jun 29 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Depending on the devices you are building. | Jun 29 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Also android also works on x86. | Jun 29 13:23 |
| MinceR | there's a MIPS android device already? | Jun 29 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Prototype yes. | Jun 29 13:23 |
| MinceR | so no :> | Jun 29 13:23 |
| tabletop | thats because C and C++ compile to machine code, C# and Java and a "JIT" type thing. | Jun 29 13:24 |
| MinceR | android might work on x86, but there's not much point to it precisely because it's dumbe ddown | Jun 29 13:24 |
| MinceR | s/ dd/d d/ | Jun 29 13:24 |
| oiaohm | Ok little correction tabletop | Jun 29 13:24 |
| tacone | there *many* prototypes | Jun 29 13:24 |
| oiaohm | MS C# uses AOT | Jun 29 13:24 |
| oiaohm | not JIT | Jun 29 13:24 |
| tabletop | thats why I said "type" thing | Jun 29 13:25 |
| oiaohm | gcc uses a procesor netural bytecode internally for optimisation processing of C and C++ | Jun 29 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Before entering the machine code. | Jun 29 13:25 |
| tabletop | and intermediate layer that is platform neutral (and cpu neutral asl well) | Jun 29 13:25 |
| oiaohm | There is no reason why C and C++ cannot be made cpu netural. | Jun 29 13:25 |
| tabletop | yes, most C compilers use a 2 pass method with a common intermediate code | Jun 29 13:26 |
| oiaohm | C and C++ with correct libs are already platform netural. | Jun 29 13:26 |
| MinceR | LLVM does that already, doesn't it? | Jun 29 13:26 |
| oiaohm | llvm does not have and offical standard for its bytecode. | Jun 29 13:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Does the EPO understand the internet, Why do they forbid direct links to the EBA referral documents on swpats? http://bit.ly/1iaJm | Jun 29 13:27 | |
| oiaohm | llvm could do it basically. | Jun 29 13:27 |
| oiaohm | Its just a lack of a standard lower down than CIL in .net that covers all the C and C++ functionality. | Jun 29 13:29 |
| schestowitz | http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/06/watching-watchers.html "It got me thinking: how about setting up a database - a surveillance of surveillance database - that has pictures and locations of CCTVs in the UK? It could be crowd sourced, and anonymous, solving problems of scaling and legal issues. If nothing else, it would put the watchers on notice that they are being watched...." | Jun 29 13:29 |
| schestowitz | http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1425692 | Jun 29 13:35 |
| ziggyfish | anyway time to go to la la land, good night :P | Jun 29 13:37 |
| *ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 13:38 | |
| *Omar87 has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 13:39 | |
| oiaohm | http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cli.html << Also that code exists to remap gcc internal bytecode to another bytecode and back again. It would not be impossiable in time to make gcc create cpu netual bytecode. | Jun 29 13:39 |
| schestowitz | Pirate Bay starts video streaming < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8123989.stm > | Jun 29 13:39 |
| schestowitz | Anti-TPB slant, as usual from the MSBBC. | Jun 29 13:40 |
| *Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 13:43 | |
| *Python1320 has quit ("fdsa") | Jun 29 13:43 | |
| schestowitz | This is silly: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1431903/freedos | Jun 29 13:43 |
| *ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 29 13:43 | |
| schestowitz | It makes it seem like Microsoft was 'the' DOS company | Jun 29 13:44 |
| schestowitz | "Britney Spears's Twitter account has been hacked again - this time around the fake microblogging update falsely reported that the troubled warbler was dead." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/29/spears_twitter_obit_hack/ | Jun 29 13:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.5 set to land tomorrow http://ping.fm/BiqvW | Jun 29 13:47 | |
| tabletop | "someone come up with an open sauce" :) | Jun 29 13:47 |
| schestowitz | I wonder how many fans cried | Jun 29 13:47 |
| *ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.113.136.180) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 13:48 | |
| schestowitz | Samsung ML-1640 mono laser printer [not THAT Mono..] http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/29/review_printer_samsung_ml_1640_mono_laser/ | Jun 29 13:49 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle hits DoJ roadblock on Sun deal < http://ping.fm/dBrxF > | Jun 29 13:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hypephone costs just under $200 to make, yet people pay premium for an Apple logo http://ping.fm/6atp2 | Jun 29 13:52 | |
| *SeanTilley has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 14:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz people pay twice the price because the apple logo promises a gadget whose interface won't make them want to smash it to bits. | Jun 29 14:02 | |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.83.16.73) has left #boycottnovell | Jun 29 14:09 | |
| schestowitz | It's /so/ humid here today | Jun 29 14:10 |
| schestowitz | National/emergency or crisis they called it on the radio here in Manc | Jun 29 14:10 |
| ThistleWeb | DANGER, SUN IN UK!!! RESIDENTS UNSURE WHAT TO DO!!! | Jun 29 14:10 |
| schestowitz | No A/Cs | Jun 29 14:11 |
| ThistleWeb | the UK is a strange place weather wise, ya can't build infrastructure for changable weather | Jun 29 14:11 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nandanator] Horrible day :(...and the loosing streak continues....bohooo :'( | Jun 29 14:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nandanator] Time zone difference is AN IMPORTANT thing .... Should always look at Zone Tick ... | Jun 29 14:12 | |
| schestowitz | A drought ~3 years ago wiped out a portion of the elderly French population | Jun 29 14:12 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm betting some were rubbing their hands at how much they'd saved | Jun 29 14:12 |
| tabletop | I think it was a heat wave | Jun 29 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | not to mention looking into how it could "accidentally" happen again | Jun 29 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | heatwaves in themseleves are not the problem, it's the infrastructure not being set up to cope when they occur that's the problem | Jun 29 14:14 |
| ThistleWeb | which is a problem is countries with wildly changing weather, ya can't build for everything | Jun 29 14:14 |
| tabletop | yes, if the power goes off, or no A/C they have to find somewhere that has got it. | Jun 29 14:14 |
| ThistleWeb | countries wil long term strong heat have infrastructure to cope | Jun 29 14:15 |
| ThistleWeb | because they couldn't live there otherwise | Jun 29 14:15 |
| ThistleWeb | they also have a populace who respect the weather, unlike us brits "who needs suntan lotion?" | Jun 29 14:16 |
| *PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 14:25 | |
| ThistleWeb | most countries around the world have a concept of "respecting the weather", it's something we brits seem rather deficient at | Jun 29 14:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] 9.10 ready on CD, all files copied off this thing. About to try. I may be some time. | Jun 29 14:27 | |
| M$ is the DoS company, Denial of Service that is. | Jun 29 14:35 | |
| schestowitz | No, these are the clients | Jun 29 14:36 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft only offers the tools for DOS (Windows) | Jun 29 14:36 |
| schestowitz | Plug it in and Windows starts DOS (denial of service) | Jun 29 14:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The giant which is China grows fast: "China adds more deals to global asset shopping spree" http://ping.fm/u1D1B | Jun 29 14:37 | |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu, Mono dan Free Software… http://denny.klorofil.org/2009/06/ubuntu-mono-dan-free-software/ | Jun 29 14:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Wikipedia User GDallimore removing my comment about EPO links: http://bit.ly/t1afQ | Jun 29 14:47 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 14:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Added "broken link to the EPO website" to the Wikipedia page about the Software Patent referral: http://bit.ly/Hmyf9 | Jun 29 14:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ah, Change! "White House Is Drafting Executive Order to Allow Indefinite Detention; Move Would Bypass Congress" http://ping.fm/fE7tJ | Jun 29 14:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] French fishermen hit back at stars' bid to save bluefin tuna http://ping.fm/A2UvB | Jun 29 14:57 | |
| schestowitz | Greenpeace Opposes Waxman-Markey http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/press-center/releases2/greenpeace-opposes-waxman-mark | Jun 29 14:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] FBI compounds mystery with secret justification of gag order < http://ping.fm/0u8dC > | Jun 29 15:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Show Britain is on the right side by barring torture, say security experts < http://ping.fm/ZimGV > | Jun 29 15:02 | |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 15:19 | |
| The M$ mono intern blithers on -> " While you can waste your life thinking you can bring down a huge company like MS I only ask that you don’t hurt a good intentioned product like Mono." | Jun 29 15:21 | |
| M$ takes down itself. | Jun 29 15:21 | |
| LOL at "good intentioned Mono" | Jun 29 15:22 | |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.75.241) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 15:23 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | Jun 29 15:23 |
| MinceR | let's hurt the evil-intentioned mono, then. | Jun 29 15:24 |
| nicktastic | I don't recall this being about "bring[ing] down a huge company like MS" | Jun 29 15:25 |
| nicktastic | but rather about keeping MS from taking down Linux companies. | Jun 29 15:25 |
| _Hicham_ | we have to take down MS | Jun 29 15:26 |
| MinceR | bringing m$ down would be nice though | Jun 29 15:26 |
| _Hicham_ | to fully profit from the market | Jun 29 15:26 |
| MinceR | i doubt they'll let us exist if we don't. | Jun 29 15:26 |
| nicktastic | Good luck with that | Jun 29 15:26 |
| MinceR | thanks. | Jun 29 15:26 |
| _Hicham_ | Me and MinceR are gonna take down MS | Jun 29 15:26 |
| _Hicham_ | isn't it MinceR? | Jun 29 15:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Presentation about UPLS and EU software patents v3.0 at HSF2009 in some minutes: http://bit.ly/KNSXf | Jun 29 15:27 | |
| MinceR | it isn't just the two of us. | Jun 29 15:27 |
| *harrytuttle has quit ("Page closed") | Jun 29 15:29 | |
| schestowitz | nicktastic: indeed, it's about Microsoft trying to "whack" companies | Jun 29 15:34 |
| schestowitz | They killed Linpspire... and Xandros desktop | Jun 29 15:34 |
| schestowitz | The 'patented' desktops | Jun 29 15:34 |
| schestowitz | Had Microsoft made Linux not a viable option, it would be able to charge at tariffs on par with Apple's (+hardware) | Jun 29 15:35 |
| schestowitz | Linux forces Microsoft to give Windows away everywhere but rich markets | Jun 29 15:35 |
| *nicktastic nods | Jun 29 15:36 | |
| schestowitz | Linux has been hugely successful at suffocating MS on desktops and servers. | Jun 29 15:36 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft borrows money now. It's running out of time and lays off engineers | Jun 29 15:36 |
| *popey wonders who controls twitter.com/boycottnovell | Jun 29 15:37 | |
| boycott novell is mostly run by Roy Shestowitz. See his profile and bio by clicking on his picture on an any Boycott Novell page. | Jun 29 15:38 | |
| twitter is an engineer and physicist who has nothing to do with M$ or twitter.com. | Jun 29 15:40 | |
| schestowitz | popey: it's an aggregation for a tool that puts it in IRC (twitfolk). I couldn't use my existing account for it because it's like a metaccount with just relationships.. | Jun 29 15:40 |
| popey | ahh | Jun 29 15:41 |
| popey | just thought it was strange that it followed me, and when I went to the twitter.com page it showed it wasn't following me any more | Jun 29 15:41 |
| popey | within a 1 hour period | Jun 29 15:41 |
| popey | someone decided I'm not worth following after all and changed their mind, or someone followed hoping for an autofollow :) | Jun 29 15:42 |
| twitter does not know or use twitter.com | Jun 29 15:42 | |
| MinceR | does twitter.com know or use twitter? :> | Jun 29 15:43 |
| there are 28 people in this room, ha ha. | Jun 29 15:43 | |
| schestowitz | popey: it just means your twits will appear here in IRC | Jun 29 15:44 |
| schestowitz | User "BNc" is twitfolks getting input from account twitter/boycottnovell | Jun 29 15:44 |
| popey | oh, my bad, I thouhgt it wasn't following me, but it is | Jun 29 15:44 |
| popey | strange they don't show yourself when looking at the first page, but if you click "following" you can then see yourself | Jun 29 15:45 |
| popey | nvm | Jun 29 15:45 |
| popey | as you were | Jun 29 15:45 |
| schestowitz | If you gather all the E-mail notifications from twitter and subtract then you see how many people stopped following you | Jun 29 15:45 |
| schestowitz | It's mostly people from IRC, so when they twit it appears here too. I got the idea from the Manchester Free software channel (dfey) | Jun 29 15:46 |
| popey | didnt know they had a channel | Jun 29 15:47 |
| schestowitz | Very informal | Jun 29 15:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is so funny. ChannelWeb published the article" Could RIM Benefit From Open Source ChannelWeb?" It meant to day"Open Source BlackBerry" | Jun 29 15:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Kubuntu 9.10a2 appears 100% functional on N410c. HUGE SUCCESS! Be sure to install "firefox-3.5", not plain "firefox" #ubuntu | Jun 29 16:12 | |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 16:15 | |
| *twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 29 16:22 | |
| schestowitz | ACLU Sues DHS Over Unlawful TSA Searches And Detention < http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/39926prs20090618.html > | Jun 29 16:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Agora andam a ateimar comigo que nunca existiram um vírus para GNU/Linux, mas eu nao estou fudido?... fds | Jun 29 16:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] School Pays Educator Falsely Charged In ‘Sexting’ Probe http://ping.fm/kOo3u This hardly makes up for the nuisance. | Jun 29 16:27 | |
| *magentar (n=magentar@94.79.143.94) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 16:45 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pro-war propaganda is not enough for some folks. http://ping.fm/BXgts | Jun 29 16:47 | |
| schestowitz | Girls Aloud net obscenity case falls at first hurdle < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/29/obscenity_trial_off/ > | Jun 29 16:47 |
| schestowitz | The ACLU defends anonymous newspaper commenters http://bloggasm.com/the-aclu-defends-anonymous-newspaper-commenters | Jun 29 16:49 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 16:51 | |
| Eruaran | Bruce Byfield prefers Kontact over Evolution: http://tinyurl.com/m2z2ph !kde | Jun 29 16:56 |
| MinceR | maybe i will too, after i try the version where the search folder bug has been fixed. | Jun 29 16:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Here is the paper "Copyfraud " http://ping.fm/UllTC | Jun 29 16:57 | |
| schestowitz | What is this...? Install Linux with InstaLinux.com < http://www.ghacks.net/2009/06/27/install-linux-with-instalinux-com/ > | Jun 29 16:57 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.216.126) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 16:57 | |
| tacone | http://blog.davebsd.com/?p=368 | Jun 29 16:57 |
| schestowitz | Yes, we talked about it i #boycottnovell-social | Jun 29 16:58 |
| tacone | that's just stupid | Jun 29 16:58 |
| tacone | it's like mono problem is a tech one. | Jun 29 16:59 |
| schestowitz | He misses the point | Jun 29 16:59 |
| schestowitz | tacone: yes, you beat me to it | Jun 29 17:00 |
| schestowitz | http://do.davebsd.com/ | Jun 29 17:00 |
| MinceR | as if mono was the best thing since sliced bread. | Jun 29 17:00 |
| schestowitz | GNOME-Do | Jun 29 17:00 |
| schestowitz | I think he works for Canonical now | Jun 29 17:00 |
| tacone | yes he does. | Jun 29 17:01 |
| tacone | i've got a big question: why canonical doesn't develop on mono ? | Jun 29 17:01 |
| MinceR | i hope someone ports gnome-do to a non-mono platform. | Jun 29 17:01 |
| MinceR | and makes it stable in the process. | Jun 29 17:02 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Hub has a twin sister | Jun 29 17:04 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Free MultiOS project officially declared dead: http://tinyurl.com/lxzue3 | Jun 29 17:07 | |
| tacone | i'm so eager to know why does those little princesses like mono | Jun 29 17:08 |
| tacone | i'll interview 20 of them as soon as possible | Jun 29 17:08 |
| tacone | i'm taking a walk. | Jun 29 17:09 |
| tacone | offlining | Jun 29 17:09 |
| tacone | i'll pull out a brief reply in some hour | Jun 29 17:09 |
| nicktastic | Well, its a nice platform | Jun 29 17:10 |
| nicktastic | But unfortunately encumbered | Jun 29 17:10 |
| _Hicham_ | Schestowitz-Do is gonna be the replacement of Gnome-Do | Jun 29 17:11 |
| nicktastic | hehe | Jun 29 17:12 |
| nicktastic | I don't get the problem with Dave's post. It seems to make perfect sense. | Jun 29 17:12 |
| *fewa (n=fewa@174-21-97-134.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 17:15 | |
| *PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 17:17 | |
| trmanco | http://friendfeed-media.com/55b529ee7238172fc19953c8187b6d2a72b61054 | Jun 29 17:20 |
| schestowitz | Why is it a Mono gathering? | Jun 29 17:21 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu tech board plays down Mono IP concerns < http://osdir.com/Article10305.phtml > | Jun 29 17:21 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu loves Mono | Jun 29 17:23 |
| _Hicham_ | no doubt about that | Jun 29 17:23 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know why all distros are adopting it | Jun 29 17:23 |
| schestowitz | its manager was developing Visual Studio and stuff | Jun 29 17:23 |
| schestowitz | The issue is that they carry on hiring more like the same core | Jun 29 17:24 |
| schestowitz | MS fugitives like Miguel and Nat | Jun 29 17:24 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDevelop 4 Beta 4 Released < http://ping.fm/Yk63B > Great option for Linux developers. | Jun 29 17:27 | |
| schestowitz | The Coding Studio Screenshots < http://www.thecodingstudio.com/opensource/linux/screenshots/index.php > | Jun 29 17:27 |
| schestowitz | The motherload | Jun 29 17:28 |
| cj | You probably already read this, but here is is anyway: http://blog.davebsd.com/2009/06/28/five-steps-to-vanquish-mono/ | Jun 29 17:28 |
| _Hicham_ | mono nomo | Jun 29 17:29 |
| cj | _Hicham_: yep. and my mamma don't like obama. | Jun 29 17:30 |
| schestowitz | < http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=122343 >nitpick: better not to say IP. RMS calls it a propaganda term. | Jun 29 17:30 |
| cj | nicktastic: yep. seems sane to me. but then, it's pretty clear that bn is here for self-promotion and not to solve any problems, so *meh* | Jun 29 17:30 |
| _Hicham_ | mono stands for mononucleosis | Jun 29 17:32 |
| _Hicham_ | that means that every distro that adopts it will get sick | Jun 29 17:32 |
| _Hicham_ | why distros are looking for a disease? | Jun 29 17:33 |
| fewa | obamanucleosis | Jun 29 17:33 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: it's good for Novell | Jun 29 17:33 |
| schestowitz | Novell has the serum | Jun 29 17:33 |
| schestowitz | It won't the likes or Red Hat to die around it | Jun 29 17:33 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 17:34 | |
| _Hicham_ | why Novell employees don't go to RedHat? | Jun 29 17:36 |
| _Hicham_ | do u think that Miguel can work for RedHat? | Jun 29 17:36 |
| schestowitz | SUSE or Novell? | Jun 29 17:36 |
| _Hicham_ | for the moment, SUSE = Novell | Jun 29 17:37 |
| _Hicham_ | but if(Novell_Went_Bankrupt && Schestowitz_Got_Lot_of_Money) SUSE = Schestowitz; | Jun 29 17:38 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : the only real way for u to make money is to patent ur work on Matlab | Jun 29 17:40 |
| _Hicham_ | that way u gonna make a lot of money | Jun 29 17:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Firefox 3.5: awesome enough for the president of Brazil :-) http://bit.ly/9MvXD | Jun 29 17:42 | |
| fewa | trmanco, and look at the hat | Jun 29 17:42 |
| trmanco | odf :) | Jun 29 17:42 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jun 29 17:42 |
| fewa | and on the wall | Jun 29 17:43 |
| *Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.231.24.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 17:43 | |
| fewa | http://torrentfreak.com/brazilian-president-shows-warmth-to-pirate-bay-spokesman-090627/ | Jun 29 17:43 |
| fewa | i should start twittering | Jun 29 17:43 |
| Omar87 | Hey there! | Jun 29 17:43 |
| Omar87 | fewa: Although Twitter is an amazing website. I'd advise you to use Identi.ca. Why? 'coz is licensed under CC. :) | Jun 29 17:44 |
| fewa | i have a identi.ca account | Jun 29 17:44 |
| fewa | yeah i would use that | Jun 29 17:44 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] zonked baby is zonked. f has fallen asleep, a and i concur. | Jun 29 17:47 | |
| fewa | does the irc script work with identi.ca now? | Jun 29 17:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] must buy two more fans for the house. | Jun 29 17:52 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft’s ODF support is broken, says alliance http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=4806 | Jun 29 17:53 |
| schestowitz | There's new MS vandalism of ODF today | Jun 29 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Not just in Wikipedia | Jun 29 17:53 |
| schestowitz | They play journos by taking them to dinners | Jun 29 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Didiot is also entering the picture | Jun 29 17:54 |
| schestowitz | fewa: I'd need to ask how to do that | Jun 29 17:55 |
| fewa | I need mroe people fighting the wikipedia vandalism | Jun 29 17:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ♺@ trmanco ♺ @firefox: Firefox 3.5: awesome enough for the president of Brazil :-) http://bit.ly/9MvXD | Jun 29 17:57 | |
| schestowitz | the hal shill has been busy | Jun 29 17:57 |
| schestowitz | Wasn't he banned yet? | Jun 29 17:57 |
| fewa | the best thing we can have is a rational popular uprise against the biased edits of HAl and Ghettoblaster | Jun 29 17:57 |
| fewa | make alot of noise, trolls cant stand sunlight | Jun 29 17:58 |
| schestowitz | I've been quiet for a long time because other things kept me too occupied. I hope to return to writing, though. | Jun 29 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Maybe I should write about ODF in some articles.. | Jun 29 18:03 |
| fewa | yeah for you writting is probably better | Jun 29 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Mail: | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | "A million hits delayed by 1 second = ~ 277 man-hours of viewing lost: | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/29/1343225/Ad-Networks-the-Laggards-In-Jackson-Traffic-Spike?art_pos=4 | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | If that is applied selectively various sites or even individual pages, | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | and thus the views or topics within them, can be emphasised or | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | marginalized. | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | However, one has to ask what portion either by number of ad-servers or | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | by bandwidth of ad-servers is held back by MS technologies. IIRC MS had | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | become a major problem in the adserver market. MS would have a | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | competitor by the economic balls if said competitor were to become | Jun 29 18:05 |
| schestowitz | dependent on revenue generated from an MS-based ad server..." | Jun 29 18:05 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.151.35) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 18:05 | |
| conley | Omar87: More importantly, it's AGPL'd, and an "open network service" or whatever you call those systems where you can set up your own server and have it interoperate | Jun 29 18:17 |
| schestowitz | conley: I use both, so can Omar87. Omar87, have a look at ping.fm. trmanco showed me how to post conveniently to both services. | Jun 29 18:18 |
| conley | Yea, I identica has a built in way to forward things to twitter | Jun 29 18:18 |
| tacone | i use just identica | Jun 29 18:19 |
| tacone | ping.fm is probably nice as well | Jun 29 18:19 |
| schestowitz | They use similar APIs. If twitter goes bad, then I still have my data in identica | Jun 29 18:19 |
| trmanco | http://thevideobay.org/ | Jun 29 18:19 |
| nicktastic | But you can't follow people on twitter, I assume | Jun 29 18:20 |
| schestowitz | Pinging them is the issue | Jun 29 18:20 |
| schestowitz | As in replying to them without a twittter account | Jun 29 18:20 |
| schestowitz | Some people come from twitter to identica | Jun 29 18:20 |
| schestowitz | glynmoody for example | Jun 29 18:20 |
| schestowitz | I pushed him to come to identica after he had started in twqitter | Jun 29 18:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ConnMan Comes to GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/rxbtM | Jun 29 18:22 | |
| *rofrol (n=rofrol@1.pia.abpl.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 18:24 | |
| *rofrol has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 29 18:25 | |
| *krenso (n=Ro@1.pia.abpl.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 18:25 | |
| *krenso has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 29 18:26 | |
| *krenso (n=Ro@1.pia.abpl.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 18:26 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 is More Expensive Than Entire Computer with GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/r7Vgu | Jun 29 18:27 | |
| krenso | hello | Jun 29 18:30 |
| krenso | don't you think, we, foss supporters are like guerrillas? | Jun 29 18:31 |
| schestowitz | guerrillas? | Jun 29 18:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why There is No "Best" Filesystem for Linux http://ping.fm/TB1Eh http://ping.fm/MjEwL | Jun 29 18:32 | |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Guerrillas&redirect=no | Jun 29 18:32 |
| schestowitz | I've never been to war | Jun 29 18:32 |
| schestowitz | I'm a pacifist. I think most FOSSpeople are. | Jun 29 18:33 |
| krenso | ok, maybe partisans is more clear definition | Jun 29 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Those who wage wars for monopolist in a colonialist fashion are not FOSS people | Jun 29 18:33 |
| schestowitz | FOSS people seek control of self, not OTHERS | Jun 29 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Freedom=control | Jun 29 18:34 |
| schestowitz | Not coercion | Jun 29 18:34 |
| schestowitz | Not control of others, e.g. clients | Jun 29 18:34 |
| ThistleWeb | free to choose your own path, not be controlled by others intentions | Jun 29 18:34 |
| krenso | they are focused, we are distracted, they have governments with them, we are only citizens. We don't have so much money and so coordinated strikes | Jun 29 18:36 |
| ThistleWeb | FOSS is more grass roots, compared to proprietary is financial-gain corporate agenda | Jun 29 18:36 |
| schestowitz | krenso: we have the wits | Jun 29 18:37 |
| schestowitz | We can show what they do | Jun 29 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Control of the media remains a barrier, but we're getting there thanks to the Internet (decentralisation) | Jun 29 18:37 |
| ThistleWeb | where people can find their own solutions and be self sufficient, compared to waiting for a company to find a solution and being subservient to their corporate intentions | Jun 29 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Look what happened to Brown on the Web. | Jun 29 18:38 |
| *conley is now known as patrickgartlan2 | Jun 29 18:38 | |
| ThistleWeb | hence the term "astroturfing" it's about fake grass roots | Jun 29 18:38 |
| krenso | Brown? | Jun 29 18:39 |
| ThistleWeb | companies hire others to pretend to be a large swelling of support, when it's all traced back to one department coordinating all the "independent" campaigns | Jun 29 18:39 |
| schestowitz | Gordon Brown's reputation was tarnished on the Web | Jun 29 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Likewise, Microsoft's bad behaviour is more commonly known now | Jun 29 18:40 |
| schestowitz | This includes the Rockefeller-type scam called B&M Foundation | Jun 29 18:40 |
| krenso | don't you similarities between us - partisans, them - army? | Jun 29 18:40 |
| *patrickgartlan2 is now known as conley | Jun 29 18:40 | |
| krenso | it is known that business is a war | Jun 29 18:41 |
| ThistleWeb | they want you to use their products, we wany you to use ours, that's where the similarites end | Jun 29 18:41 |
| krenso | look at b.gates memos: he uses term jihad | Jun 29 18:41 |
| fewa | The brazilian president compared them to drug dealers | Jun 29 18:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] XP Applications Run Better in GNU/Linux Than in Vista/Vista 7? http://ping.fm/yH2Rw | Jun 29 18:42 | |
| ThistleWeb | their products are based around proprietary formats, vendor lockin etc. Ours are based around the freedom to modify the code, and standard file formats so you can choose which software suits your needs and move if you feel your current choice dont fit you | Jun 29 18:42 |
| fewa | http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Brazil-just-says-No-to-Microsoft/ | Jun 29 18:42 |
| schestowitz | krenso: yes, he said Jihad many times | Jun 29 18:42 |
| schestowitz | I didn't keep count | Jun 29 18:42 |
| schestowitz | He also says "hardcore" a lot | Jun 29 18:42 |
| ThistleWeb | FOSS is about giivng the end user ownership and control back, closed source is about ensuring that you're subservient to their agenda, and have no choice but to fork out cash over and over for new versions of software, because all the data you created with their apps can't be opened by anything else | Jun 29 18:43 |
| ThistleWeb | if you create all your word processing documents in odf using koffice, and koffice moves in a direction you don't like, you can swicth easily yo open office, or abiword and all your data will be fine | Jun 29 18:45 |
| ThistleWeb | when koffice tell you version X will be discontinued, and please upgrade, it's FOC to do so, not another licencing fee like M$ Office | Jun 29 18:45 |
| schestowitz | This keeps vendors honest too | Jun 29 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Don't forget about forced upgrades | Jun 29 18:46 |
| schestowitz | MS deliberately designs the office suite not to be cross-compatible or intra-comptaible | Jun 29 18:46 |
| schestowitz | This sets loose a wave of mass 'upgrades' where everyone craves to be compatible with peers | Jun 29 18:46 |
| ThistleWeb | theres no reason for FOSS devs to hold back on features either, where closed source vendors can easily use them as carrots to get you to buy the new version | Jun 29 18:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Boxee for GNU/Linux Ahead of Windows http://ping.fm/7QOW3 , Kontact Claimed Ahead of Evolution http://ping.fm/3U4KV | Jun 29 18:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Tiny Core Linux 2.1 is Released http://ping.fm/EWr8Z and Mandriva Linux 2010 is Foreseen http://ping.fm/NDACO | Jun 29 18:47 | |
| schestowitz | And they throw away perfectly OK software | Jun 29 18:47 |
| schestowitz | OK for MS anyway | Jun 29 18:47 |
| ThistleWeb | often you can get a new feature by popping into the devs IRC channel and asking | Jun 29 18:47 |
| schestowitz | They 'buy' binaries to replace the old ones | Jun 29 18:47 |
| ThistleWeb | if it's somethng trivial they never thought of, you may see it as an update within days of you suggesting it | Jun 29 18:47 |
| ThistleWeb | everything in the proprietary model is put through the "can we hold it off as a carrot for peeps to buy the new version" filter | Jun 29 18:48 |
| ThistleWeb | when your app gets to the state that ot's very stable and has everything peeps want, how do you get them to buy new versions? | Jun 29 18:49 |
| ThistleWeb | feature bloat | Jun 29 18:49 |
| ThistleWeb | add new stuff just so you have bullet points to put on the adverts | Jun 29 18:49 |
| ThistleWeb | Nero used to be a great burner | Jun 29 18:49 |
| schestowitz | "Used to"? | Jun 29 18:49 |
| ThistleWeb | now it's WAY bigger than it needs to be | Jun 29 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Do people use the Linux version at all? | Jun 29 18:49 |
| schestowitz | They rely on old business models | Jun 29 18:49 |
| ThistleWeb | now it's a full media suite | Jun 29 18:50 |
| ThistleWeb | because of feature bloat | Jun 29 18:50 |
| ThistleWeb | I've never tried Nero in Linux, although I'm sure it's available, I dont think it's free though | Jun 29 18:50 |
| ThistleWeb | while brasero exists, I have no reason to try iy | Jun 29 18:50 |
| ThistleWeb | it* | Jun 29 18:50 |
| ThistleWeb | look at Nero now on Windows, it's come a LONG way from a CD / DVD burner | Jun 29 18:51 |
| ThistleWeb | now it's a full on multimedia suite | Jun 29 18:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Does Better Than Anyone Expected http://ping.fm/6dTnz | Jun 29 18:52 | |
| ThistleWeb | they got to the point where peeps had what they needed, even more so because of deals they did with burner HW makers to include Nero with the device | Jun 29 18:52 |
| ThistleWeb | so they had to find ways to get peeps to slpash out on the next version | Jun 29 18:53 |
| ThistleWeb | splash* | Jun 29 18:53 |
| schestowitz | It's not free (Nero) | Jun 29 18:53 |
| krenso | don't forget that red hat uses other versions of lock-ins | Jun 29 18:53 |
| schestowitz | But it has feature parity wrt Windows | Jun 29 18:53 |
| schestowitz | krenso: use centos | Jun 29 18:54 |
| schestowitz | Their sauce is out there | Jun 29 18:54 |
| ThistleWeb | yep Nero is not free software, although it is included FOC (bundled) with a lot of burners), at least some version is | Jun 29 18:55 |
| ThistleWeb | that's what happens when you saturate the market with a version of your product that's good enough for most peeps | Jun 29 18:55 |
| ThistleWeb | and you charge for new versions | Jun 29 18:56 |
| ThistleWeb | with FOSS you don't get that | Jun 29 18:56 |
| ThistleWeb | since there's no compunction to monetize every new feature | Jun 29 18:56 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : I am having a problem with my website, can u help? | Jun 29 18:56 |
| krenso | nerolinux is sometimes usefull, because it supports more formats than k3b | Jun 29 18:56 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: sure | Jun 29 18:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox May Soon Reach Linux-based Phones http://ping.fm/ZkvKv | Jun 29 18:57 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : how do I send a file in binary mode to ftp server? | Jun 29 18:57 |
| _Hicham_ | I used Filezilla and gFTP | Jun 29 18:57 |
| schestowitz | http://hicham.iblogger.org/?q=node/1 | Jun 29 18:57 |
| ThistleWeb | _Hicham_: there's usually an option in your FTP client to send in binary mode | Jun 29 18:57 |
| schestowitz | I like the two banners. Shiny | Jun 29 18:58 |
| ThistleWeb | sorry, schestowitz | Jun 29 18:58 |
| schestowitz | I no longer use gftp | Jun 29 18:58 |
| _Hicham_ | I tried it in both of them | Jun 29 18:58 |
| schestowitz | I used Firezilla in like version 1.0 | Jun 29 18:58 |
| schestowitz | Got Konqueror? | Jun 29 18:58 |
| schestowitz | It's the best one. | Jun 29 18:58 |
| _Hicham_ | but firefox tries to open up the rpm | Jun 29 18:58 |
| krenso | types of lock-ins in open source: http://www.h-online.com/open/The-Open-Source-Enterprise-Trap--/features/112992/0 | Jun 29 19:00 |
| _Hicham_ | can u try to download this file via firefox : http://hicham.iblogger.org/linux/fedora/releases/11/Everything/i386/os/Packages/asus-acpi-support-0.0.1-0.fc11.i386.rpm ? | Jun 29 19:01 |
| _Hicham_ | firefox reads it directly | Jun 29 19:01 |
| krenso | have you encounterd problems with cdrkit like these: http://www.h-online.com/open/The-Open-Source-Enterprise-Trap--/features/112992/0 | Jun 29 19:01 |
| krenso | ? | Jun 29 19:01 |
| *ThistleWeb hasn't tried dcrkit | Jun 29 19:02 | |
| ThistleWeb | cdrkit* | Jun 29 19:02 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 19:03 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : can u try to download this file via firefox : http://hicham.iblogger.org/linux/fedora/releases/11/Everything/i386/os/Packages/asus-acpi-support-0.0.1-0.fc11.i386.rpm | Jun 29 19:03 |
| ThistleWeb | firefox treating an rpm as a direct install is to do with the rules for formats in firefox itself, it's set you use yum or whatever instead of giving you the choice | Jun 29 19:03 |
| krenso | ThistleWeb, cdrkit is backend for k3b | Jun 29 19:03 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah I use brasero | Jun 29 19:04 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.5.215) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 19:04 | |
| ThistleWeb | dunno what backend that uses | Jun 29 19:04 |
| krenso | why ubuntu includes mono-applications? | Jun 29 19:06 |
| ThistleWeb | with the rpm thing, you could right click and download, rather than left click and let it do it's default action for rpm | Jun 29 19:06 |
| krenso | are there some ms exworkers inside canonical/ubuntu? | Jun 29 19:06 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Targets Children's Sub-notebooks http://ping.fm/fprXU and Developing Countries http://ping.fm/lJ83D | Jun 29 19:07 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nokia's Linux Emphasis to Further Refine Linux Components http://ping.fm/6PD2M | Jun 29 19:07 | |
| tacone | krenso: at least one | Jun 29 19:08 |
| ThistleWeb | well, ubuntu / canonical is the Linux poster child, and a MAJOR threat to M$, so you'd be surprised if they didn't try to get agents inside to derail it | Jun 29 19:09 |
| krenso | like agent Smith? | Jun 29 19:09 |
| ThistleWeb | they dont like competiton except when they can point to them in anti-trust cases and say "hey look, we don't crush everyone, we do have competitors" | Jun 29 19:09 |
| tacone | krenso: i sent you the link in prv | Jun 29 19:11 |
| _Hicham_ | ThistleWeb : I want to fix the behavior of the rpm | Jun 29 19:11 |
| krenso | what would say that bagle was less expensive than tracker: http://twitter.com/rofrol/status/2387924324 | Jun 29 19:11 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not normal | Jun 29 19:11 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 19:13 | |
| tacone | krenso: got my prv msg ? | Jun 29 19:13 |
| krenso | yes, thanks | Jun 29 19:13 |
| krenso | i think it was on boycotnovell website | Jun 29 19:13 |
| tacone | yup. | Jun 29 19:13 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 19:14 | |
| tacone | i don't like to claim people are biased because they worked in ms for some years | Jun 29 19:14 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 19:15 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : no one is willing to help in this channel | Jun 29 19:16 |
| _Hicham_ | I am really deceived | Jun 29 19:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] I hope he was just being sarcastic: "Torvalds proclaims 'new world order' with Linux 2.6.30" http://tinyurl.com/ljxmg8 | Jun 29 19:17 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: I don't know how | Jun 29 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not about u schestowitz, it is about the others | Jun 29 19:18 |
| tacone | http://www.stefanoforenza.com/beware-of-berlusconi-virus/ | Jun 29 19:19 |
| schestowitz | venereal berlusconi | Jun 29 19:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] MS-Windows Declared "Outdated 'technology' " RT: @ml2mst: Free MultiOS project officially declared dead: http://tinyurl.com/lxzue3 | Jun 29 19:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @nickballard: not sure. "My name is Linus, and I am your God,” --Torvalds Quotes | Jun 29 19:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] "That's not a moon, it's a spaceship..." http://bit.ly/Qz7Z3 | Jun 29 19:22 | |
| krenso | _Hicham_, http://slash7.com/pages/vampires http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/06/24/exherbo-community/ | Jun 29 19:23 |
| fewa | aww sweet, new suspend resume | Jun 29 19:24 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Government and Free Software Brought Closer Together http://ping.fm/bCHJ1 Government and Free Software Brought Closer Together | Jun 29 19:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free Software Mantra Passes to Music http://ping.fm/eZtra | Jun 29 19:32 | |
| _Hicham_ | ok, I fixed my problem in fedora channel | Jun 29 19:33 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : it was a .htaccess problem | Jun 29 19:33 |
| schestowitz | \Good. | Jun 29 19:34 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Internet Comes Under Cap Attack, Pages Hijacked by ISPs http://ping.fm/TKt45 http://ping.fm/TqYbx | Jun 29 19:37 | |
| krenso | i didn't know that limux isn't proceeding to good: http://limuxwatch.blogspot.com/ | Jun 29 19:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Scareware Under FTC Probe http://ping.fm/OyHVI | Jun 29 19:42 | |
| *mtc (n=user@fsf/member/mtc) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 19:42 | |
| mtc | schestowitz, ping | Jun 29 19:43 |
| schestowitz | ACK | Jun 29 19:43 |
| mtc | schestowitz, read your nokia linux msg .. you should check out the mer project | Jun 29 19:44 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 19:44 | |
| mtc | g.l. | Jun 29 19:44 |
| *mtc (n=user@fsf/member/mtc) has left #boycottnovell ("Leaving") | Jun 29 19:44 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pirate Bay to Compete with Google http://ping.fm/4MZtY , Gets Brazilian President's Sympathy http://ping.fm/5boYw | Jun 29 19:47 | |
| krenso | do you know better sites than digg.com? http://blogs.computerworld.com/digg_dug_buried_how_linux_news_disappears | Jun 29 19:48 |
| krenso | i mean some sites that stories from people i gave digg will have more points in my inbox | Jun 29 19:49 |
| schestowitz | Tax Machines is good | Jun 29 19:51 |
| schestowitz | *Tux | Jun 29 19:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Copyright Cartel Focuses on Killing Competition, Not Symbiosis http://ping.fm/HAINJ http://ping.fm/ArW7p | Jun 29 19:52 | |
| *Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.231.24.go.com.jo) has left #boycottnovell | Jun 29 19:55 | |
| krenso | i mostly watch this: http://digg.com/news/linux_unix/upcoming/most | Jun 29 19:55 |
| krenso | but many good stories are buried if they reach frontpage | Jun 29 19:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MAFIAA Broke Wiretap Law http://ping.fm/oTag0 , Now Fight to Forbid Personal Backups http://ping.fm/AVxwH | Jun 29 19:57 | |
| fewa | i dont even look at Dungg | Jun 29 19:57 |
| MinceR | for a moment i thought there was a digg parody site called Dungg | Jun 29 19:58 |
| fewa | lol | Jun 29 19:58 |
| fewa | that would be awesome | Jun 29 19:58 |
| fewa | i just mad that up | Jun 29 19:58 |
| fewa | damn its parked | Jun 29 19:58 |
| krenso | i also watch http://www.lxer.com and http://fsdaily.com | Jun 29 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Tux Machines is the best | Jun 29 19:59 |
| fewa | or linux devices | Jun 29 20:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "In Europe Windows 7 will cost 41% to 100% more than in the US." http://bit.ly/wTBCl | Jun 29 20:02 | |
| MinceR | also, what's brown and sounds like a bell? | Jun 29 20:02 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu? | Jun 29 20:05 |
| fewa | lol | Jun 29 20:05 |
| MinceR | DUNG! | Jun 29 20:05 |
| fewa | *Dungg | Jun 29 20:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ACT's Anti-FOSS and the Microsoft Connection http://ping.fm/TQAFy @glynmoody: It was conceived for Microsoft. | Jun 29 20:07 | |
| *amd-linux (i=5c4a6228@gateway/web/freenode/x-859429dcec3a7076) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 20:07 | |
| *gruven has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 20:08 | |
| krenso | what do you think about windows 7 superbar? | Jun 29 20:08 |
| amd-linux | nothing as I dont know what it is - and I am not interested in finding out | Jun 29 20:09 |
| amd-linux | much more interesting: will there be a FF 3.5 backport in Ubuntu 9.04 | Jun 29 20:09 |
| fewa | im already using 3.5 in 9.04 | Jun 29 20:10 |
| fewa | but thats cool | Jun 29 20:10 |
| amd-linux | me too, from PPA | Jun 29 20:10 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.155.203) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 20:10 | |
| fewa | i use the mozilla daily builds | Jun 29 20:10 |
| amd-linux | but I mean from Universe | Jun 29 20:10 |
| krenso | i've tried windows 7 taskbar it and must say it's good. But you can have similar with gnome+maximus+dockarx+namebar | Jun 29 20:10 |
| amd-linux | tomorrow is FF 3.5 day.... | Jun 29 20:10 |
| fewa | krenso, look at GNOME 3 | Jun 29 20:10 |
| tacone | it's the default that matters. | Jun 29 20:11 |
| krenso | you mean this video on you tube from some russian designer? | Jun 29 20:11 |
| tacone | nothing else | Jun 29 20:11 |
| fewa | there is GNOME 3 alphas | Jun 29 20:11 |
| krenso | i thought gnome 3 will be in 2010-10 | Jun 29 20:11 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Known Microsoft Spinners Add Anti-ODF contents (making about 12 more edits) to Wikipedia's article on ODF. http://ping.fm/Oevwr | Jun 29 20:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] China Bans Gold Farming http://bit.ly/QieC7 | Jun 29 20:12 | |
| fewa | http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screenshotshttp://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screencasts | Jun 29 20:12 |
| fewa | http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screenshots http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Screencasts | Jun 29 20:12 |
| amd-linux | Gold faming banned? Holy schmoly how do I make a living NOW???? | Jun 29 20:12 |
| amd-linux | :-) | Jun 29 20:12 |
| fewa | you mean legal sanctions? | Jun 29 20:13 |
| fewa | wtf | Jun 29 20:13 |
| fewa | thats called coercion and price fixing | Jun 29 20:13 |
| fewa | wont stop it from happening | Jun 29 20:14 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : can I put BN logo on my website? | Jun 29 20:15 |
| *twitter (n=willhill@97-113-231-86.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 20:15 | |
| schestowitz | Sure | Jun 29 20:16 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : ok, I have put it | Jun 29 20:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Slackware. The anti-Ubuntu. http://bit.ly/17nlew | Jun 29 20:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Office Suffocated by FOSS, ODF, and SaaS Competition http://ping.fm/cWTGd | Jun 29 20:17 | |
| krenso | what is the case with odf patents? how has them? sun? oasis? | Jun 29 20:17 |
| krenso | what if sun won't be a member of oasis? | Jun 29 20:17 |
| tacone | https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/393557 | Jun 29 20:18 |
| *amd-linux has quit ("Page closed") | Jun 29 20:19 | |
| krenso | fewa, have you seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZvwyxJ9vk ? | Jun 29 20:19 |
| ODF patents? :) | Jun 29 20:19 | |
| Isn't that like asking about ogg theora patents? | Jun 29 20:20 | |
| krenso | http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/odf-oasis.html | Jun 29 20:21 |
| fewa | krenso, i like practical things, not eye candy | Jun 29 20:21 |
| krenso | i read somewhere that these patents from some are give only if they remain member of oasis | Jun 29 20:21 |
| krenso | maybe it has changed | Jun 29 20:21 |
| krenso | fewa, but it may be practical. there is no distraction between windows and their icons on taskbar. more intuitive. look at palm pre videos | Jun 29 20:23 |
| ->" Only one member of the ODF group has issued statements about their patent policies: Sun. Sun's statements provide for free use of their patents in ODF. Their patent licenses terminate only for people who threaten others with patents on ODF implementation" | Jun 29 20:23 | |
| I suppose this means that M$ must avoid ODF patent threats. | Jun 29 20:24 | |
| MinceR | krenso: i prefer being able to arrange my windows for myself :) | Jun 29 20:25 |
| krenso | so if microsoft sues someone, because they have patented something in their odf implementation, they can be sued by sun? | Jun 29 20:25 |
| krenso | i don't even like to arrange windows, that's why i use combo gnome+maximus+dockbar+namebar (i know i'm repeating myself) | Jun 29 20:26 |
| fewa | try awesome wm | Jun 29 20:26 |
| fewa | uses xcb so its faster than any other window manager | Jun 29 20:27 |
| krenso | but sometimes i need to demaximize window, it's rare but useful | Jun 29 20:27 |
| If M$ threatens any ODF implementer with any patent, they lose their right to use ODF. | Jun 29 20:27 | |
| MinceR | they aren't using it much anyway | Jun 29 20:27 |
| M$, right now, has no serious interest in implementing ODF. | Jun 29 20:27 | |
| krenso | you mean use of sun patents? | Jun 29 20:28 |
| but they make false claims. | Jun 29 20:28 | |
| fewa | M$ prefers to shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly | Jun 29 20:28 |
| krenso | twitter, they have interest: embrace, extend, extinguish | Jun 29 20:28 |
| fewa | rather than help their customers | Jun 29 20:28 |
| Well, yes, krenso, if what the FSF says is accurate, Sun will stop letting people use their ODF patents, which basically keeps people who threaten ODF from using ODF. | Jun 29 20:29 | |
| Software patents are evil and stupid but Sun's patents will do no harm as things stand. | Jun 29 20:30 | |
| Sun is honest enough and has a good enough reputation for people to trust them. | Jun 29 20:30 | |
| krenso | ok, let's talk about mono a little. can someone tell me why beaggle was so much cheaper to develop than tracker? http://twitter.com/rofrol/status/2387924324 | Jun 29 20:31 |
| krenso | is it only about number of lines of code? | Jun 29 20:31 |
| fewa | its similar to the wave patent licence: http://www.waveprotocol.org/patent-license | Jun 29 20:31 |
| Mono is a M$ patent trap. | Jun 29 20:31 | |
| fewa | Microsoft wishes to trap people, that is why they cant speak straight | Jun 29 20:32 |
| M$ has tried for the last ten years to extinguish free software, they have no interest in contributing to it. | Jun 29 20:32 | |
| fewa | unlike Google which is clear and concise | Jun 29 20:32 |
| If you want to use mono, you might as well use java. | Jun 29 20:33 | |
| Java is free software and it works as well or better than mono does. | Jun 29 20:33 | |
| If Gnome was talking about using java or lisp or other languages instead of mono, the world would be a happier place. | Jun 29 20:34 | |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jun 29 20:35 | |
| krenso | but one of gnome founders is miguel | Jun 29 20:35 |
| so | Jun 29 20:35 | |
| krenso | and it have some role | Jun 29 20:35 |
| krenso | maybe | Jun 29 20:35 |
| krenso | some connection or influence, i don't. It's a jihad, man. | Jun 29 20:36 |
| Free software belongs to everyone. "Jihad" is the term M$ would use to describe their war against software freedom and sharing. | Jun 29 20:36 | |
| The direction Gnome goes is up to it's owners, that's everyone. | Jun 29 20:37 | |
| Miguel can make his version of mono compile in VS only if he wants, but I don't think anyone else would use it. | Jun 29 20:38 | |
| I don't really think Miguel wants to go that way either. | Jun 29 20:38 | |
| krenso | many of us don't like the path which Gnome is following (mono). Gnome is everyone's. But someday it could have MS patents inside, and than you wouldn't say it's everyone | Jun 29 20:40 |
| *tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 29 20:43 | |
| _Hicham_ | GNOME is GNU | Jun 29 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | so it can't be contaminated | Jun 29 20:44 |
| krenso | _Hicham_, it's not on GPL3 so it vunerable | Jun 29 20:45 |
| Anyone who cares can fork it. The community wants freedom and will go with the free version. So will OEMs and everyone else. | Jun 29 20:45 | |
| _Hicham_ | they will soon | Jun 29 20:45 |
| krenso | _Hicham_, i hope | Jun 29 20:45 |
| _Hicham_ | Mono will be replaced by vala soon | Jun 29 20:46 |
| krenso | but look what happend with upstart and gpl3 | Jun 29 20:46 |
| _Hicham_ | Vala is the future of GNOME | Jun 29 20:46 |
| :) the mono people can have what they want, but they can't make the world use it. | Jun 29 20:46 | |
| krenso | embeded guys didn't wanted gpl3 | Jun 29 20:46 |
| _Hicham_ | what happened to upstart | Jun 29 20:46 |
| _Hicham_ | ? | Jun 29 20:46 |
| krenso | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/upstart-devel/2009-June/001011.html | Jun 29 20:48 |
| krenso | but the question is why embeded guys don't want gpl3? | Jun 29 20:48 |
| krenso | tivoization? | Jun 29 20:48 |
| krenso | so no one can't change firmware and they can sell the milions of apps? http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Palm-Pre-App-Downloads-Top-1-Million-305814/ | Jun 29 20:49 |
| *_Goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 20:55 | |
| _Goblin | Good evening, hello, bonjour.... | Jun 29 20:56 |
| _Goblin | Long day at work... :( | Jun 29 20:56 |
| _Hicham_ | hi Mr _Goblin | Jun 29 20:57 |
| _Goblin | :) | Jun 29 20:57 |
| *PeterKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 20:58 | |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 29 20:59 | |
| _Hicham_ | http://www.betanews.com/article/Islamic-Linux-distro-changes-its-name-to-avoid-trademark-dispute/1242136959 | Jun 29 21:00 |
| krenso | do you know why android don't use gnu coreutils? | Jun 29 21:04 |
| krenso | is it because bsd utils are better/smaller/more efficient? | Jun 29 21:04 |
| krenso | or is it because of licence which colide whith their app center? | Jun 29 21:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "Jury tells Microsoft to fork over $200M" - Patents not so great eh #Microsoft ? http://tinyurl.com/kw2euk #windows #patent #vista #xp | Jun 29 21:07 | |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 29 21:08 | |
| krenso | novell, xandros, linspire, asus, nvidia. ms has many supporters | Jun 29 21:09 |
| krenso | i was hoping for good tegra netbook | Jun 29 21:10 |
| *gnuser (i=5c1377f4@gateway/web/freenode/x-42c4fd4871326507) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 21:10 | |
| *gnuser has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 29 21:11 | |
| schestowitz | John Cleese... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYVDB2T_JE4&NR=1 | Jun 29 21:13 |
| schestowitz | krenso: why did you come here to troll? | Jun 29 21:15 |
| krenso | i didn't mean trolling. what was trolling? | Jun 29 21:16 |
| krenso | rather i agree with you | Jun 29 21:16 |
| schestowitz | No, you bring up poisonous topics systematically | Jun 29 21:17 |
| krenso | you may think about them as poisonous, but i want to ask you about them | Jun 29 21:18 |
| krenso | and up to now you have cleared some my concerns | Jun 29 21:20 |
| krenso | they were just in my mind all the time | Jun 29 21:20 |
| krenso | schestowitz, i'm foss supporter: http://rofrol.wordpress.com/ http://pl.wikibooks.org/wiki/Specjalna:Wk%C5%82ad/Rofrol http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specjalna:Wk%C5%82ad/Rofro | Jun 29 21:24 |
| schestowitz | Maybe I misjudged at first. | Jun 29 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Regarding ODF and patents: | Jun 29 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Let me get some writings on it. | Jun 29 21:26 |
| fewa | Cleese :P | Jun 29 21:27 |
| krenso | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Rofrol | Jun 29 21:27 |
| fewa | krenso, you have been trolling all day | Jun 29 21:27 |
| krenso | sorry, just asking. i have so many questions, and you have answers from both sides on google | Jun 29 21:28 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/11/microsoft-odf-promise-of-interoperability/ | Jun 29 21:28 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/11/microsoft-odf-fragmentation/ | Jun 29 21:28 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/09/microsoft-patents-odf/ | Jun 29 21:28 |
| _Goblin | Quote Krenso "Vista came with my laptop but i decided to install Windows 7...." Yep, he looks like a FOSS user to me.... | Jun 29 21:28 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/11/ms-patent-threat-to-odf/ | Jun 29 21:28 |
| schestowitz | and http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/08/oasis-vs-software-patents/ | Jun 29 21:28 |
| krenso | _Goblin, Vista crashed and my wife don't like linux | Jun 29 21:29 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer is a FOSS user | Jun 29 21:29 |
| _Goblin | Is there an opensource Windows Vista 7 we are not aware of? | Jun 29 21:29 |
| krenso | so i decided to try 7. | Jun 29 21:29 |
| schestowitz | They use it to run Hotmail and stuff | Jun 29 21:29 |
| schestowitz | What distro do you like, krenso? | Jun 29 21:30 |
| _Goblin | Gentoo.... | Jun 29 21:30 |
| krenso | exherbo | Jun 29 21:30 |
| krenso | and gentoo | Jun 29 21:30 |
| _Goblin | according to his blog | Jun 29 21:30 |
| _Goblin | what a surprise. | Jun 29 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Gento User... | Jun 29 21:30 |
| _Goblin | I'm either psychic or I can predict whats coming next.... | Jun 29 21:30 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.92.6) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 21:31 | |
| krenso | http://forums.gentoo.org/search.php?search_author=rofro | Jun 29 21:31 |
| tacone | http://kdubois.net/?p=460 | Jun 29 21:31 |
| _Goblin | Linux is great but...........(please complete as required) | Jun 29 21:31 |
| fewa | _Goblin, yarp | Jun 29 21:31 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jun 29 21:31 |
| _Goblin | Sometimes Roy I think MS faithful are directly out of a Carry on movie.... | Jun 29 21:32 |
| _Goblin | they just dont have a clue..... | Jun 29 21:32 |
| _Goblin | Maybe that should be a new movie "Carry on Proprietary" | Jun 29 21:32 |
| _Goblin | I'll make it after my "Silence of the Shills" film. | Jun 29 21:33 |
| schestowitz | "Silence of the Shills"? | Jun 29 21:37 |
| krenso | _Goblin, you judged me to quickly. Anyone can install windows. Do you use gNewSense? | Jun 29 21:37 |
| schestowitz | That's like an oxymoron | Jun 29 21:37 |
| fewa | like "cacophony of the monks" | Jun 29 21:38 |
| krenso | _Goblin, or maybe you use only hardware on that list http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw ? | Jun 29 21:38 |
| krenso | so you don't support blobs in kernel? | Jun 29 21:38 |
| fewa | krenso, have of my hardware of a brand new computer does not work on vista | Jun 29 21:38 |
| fewa | krenso, most hardware only works with downloading kernel code over http | Jun 29 21:39 |
| _Goblin | Sorry AFK there.... | Jun 29 21:39 |
| fewa | krenso, while linux drivers come with every distrobution, require no installation, and have no crapware that they come with | Jun 29 21:39 |
| _Goblin | Come on Krenso....you know you want to....let me start your sentence for you... "I am a Gentoo user and think Linux is great. Its not though because......." | Jun 29 21:40 |
| krenso | i know cons and pros about foss drivers | Jun 29 21:40 |
| _Goblin | lovely... | Jun 29 21:41 |
| _Goblin | Maybe you can tell me then if you can get comp with an AROS/Catweasel combo in respect of UAE? | Jun 29 21:41 |
| krenso | what is UAE? | Jun 29 21:42 |
| _Goblin | Im sure you can with Vista 7...eh Krenso? | Jun 29 21:42 |
| _Goblin | I was being flippant...I dont need the answer from you. | Jun 29 21:42 |
| krenso | _Goblin, you accuse me about something not true, and don't dare to answer on my questions | Jun 29 21:43 |
| _Goblin | I havent accused you of anything....I'm waiting to hear about the "problems" you have with Linux that I know are coming.... | Jun 29 21:44 |
| _Goblin | What Q's? The one about the hardware? | Jun 29 21:44 |
| krenso | _Goblin, what is your sin? you don't use gNewSense? you use blobs with kernel? or maybe user of tomboy app? | Jun 29 21:45 |
| _Goblin | That was a question? | Jun 29 21:45 |
| krenso | yap | Jun 29 21:45 |
| _Goblin | lol... | Jun 29 21:45 |
| fewa | krenso, vista hardware compatibility is crap | Jun 29 21:45 |
| _Goblin | I am a Gentoo user (unlike you) | Jun 29 21:45 |
| _Goblin | but... | Jun 29 21:45 |
| fewa | krenso, and vista 7 will be no better | Jun 29 21:45 |
| krenso | come on, stop with this vista. i don't care | Jun 29 21:45 |
| _Goblin | I also have Mandriva/Aros/Nimble X rigs running currently too. | Jun 29 21:46 |
| schestowitz | fewa: it's the same thing underneath | Jun 29 21:46 |
| schestowitz | But more marketing | Jun 29 21:46 |
| fewa | schestowitz, exactly | Jun 29 21:46 |
| fewa | Vista.1 | Jun 29 21:46 |
| _Goblin | I don't use tomboy.... | Jun 29 21:46 |
| _Goblin | I use gedit. | Jun 29 21:46 |
| _Goblin | for mostly everything. | Jun 29 21:46 |
| _Goblin | Why would I use a package that facilitates the Mono runtime? | Jun 29 21:47 |
| MinceR | for taking notes i use gvim, if it needs structure then with the DotTree plugin. | Jun 29 21:47 |
| _Goblin | anymore questions Krenso? | Jun 29 21:48 |
| fewa | krenso, do you put valuable information of windows 7? http://www.pretentiousname.com/misc/win7_uac_whitelist2.html | Jun 29 21:48 |
| _Goblin | or is it my go? | Jun 29 21:48 |
| krenso | _Goblin, why you insinuate than i'm MS fanboy? Because installing 7? That's funny. I gave much more evidences that i'm linux user, and you stick with that one sentece. | Jun 29 21:49 |
| _Goblin | I didnt...I insinuated you were going to have a problem with Linux....What one sentence have a stuck with? | Jun 29 21:50 |
| _Goblin | *I | Jun 29 21:50 |
| fewa | _Goblin, hes a troll | Jun 29 21:51 |
| _Goblin | I'm sorry, unless I've slipped into some wierd Ballmeresque alternate reality, after checking my comments I dont believe I've repeated myself at all. | Jun 29 21:51 |
| _Goblin | fewa: A troll? He's not very good.... I thought he was just simple. | Jun 29 21:52 |
| fewa | _Goblin, well hes that too | Jun 29 21:52 |
| _Goblin | ;) | Jun 29 21:52 |
| _Goblin | I hope that sentence wasn't a repeat... | Jun 29 21:54 |
| _Goblin | Well thats ended that then... | Jun 29 21:55 |
| krenso | so what is your definition of troll? A person asking some uncomfortable questions? | Jun 29 21:56 |
| _Goblin | Moving on...I see MS has had a little issue with a patent ruling...... | Jun 29 21:56 |
| _Goblin | 200 mill they have been fined apparently. | Jun 29 21:56 |
| krenso | foss has some drawbacks but we don't have to hide our head in sand | Jun 29 21:56 |
| _Goblin | Krenso: Nothing you have asked is uncomfortable, infact you havent really asked anything at all...I've answered the "question" that you posted....now you are making random comments.. | Jun 29 21:57 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jun 29 21:57 | |
| _Goblin | Krenso: I wish you would bury your head in the sand....You might stop with the randomness then. | Jun 29 21:58 |
| _Goblin | anyway, as I was saying...the patent news on MS is here: http://tinyurl.com/kw2euk | Jun 29 22:00 |
| _Goblin | maybe patent's are not so bad after all? | Jun 29 22:00 |
| _Goblin | Check out Ballmers yawn....its not his money, he's already made his fortune....why should he care? | Jun 29 22:01 |
| _Goblin | 200 mill will be covered by the revenue made from the miserable Vista customers. (IMO) | Jun 29 22:02 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.80.200.2) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 22:03 | |
| *krenso has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 22:07 | |
| _Goblin | bye Krenso... | Jun 29 22:08 |
| _Goblin | its a shame he left.... | Jun 29 22:08 |
| *ugufjhfj (n=ugufjhfj@modemcable213.226-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 22:08 | |
| *yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-96-240-114-114.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 22:09 | |
| yuhong | After my recent chat about Apple, this looks very interesting. | Jun 29 22:09 |
| yuhong | http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/28/1351220/The-Open-Source-Design-Conundrum | Jun 29 22:09 |
| _Goblin | looking now.... | Jun 29 22:10 |
| _Goblin | Annoyed immediately..." Open-source projects have tended to be great commoditizers, but not necessarily the best innovators. "....want inovation....UAE/MAME to name but a few... | Jun 29 22:11 |
| _Goblin | Wine...the list goes on. | Jun 29 22:11 |
| fewa | actual security.... | Jun 29 22:12 |
| yuhong | By my recent chat about Apple, I am referring to these: | Jun 29 22:13 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/irc-log-28062009.html | Jun 29 22:13 |
| _Goblin | Which part of the chat (its quite large) | Jun 29 22:17 |
| yuhong | The parts where ThistleWeb, MinceR, and me talk about Apple. | Jun 29 22:18 |
| MinceR | if he wants free software innovation, he should take a look at compiz and kde4 | Jun 29 22:19 |
| MinceR | and then he should shut up. | Jun 29 22:19 |
| fewa | yuhong, are you going to make a point? | Jun 29 22:19 |
| _Goblin | Yuhonh: Im sorry, Im doing many things at the same time, if you care to ellaborate on the point here great.... | Jun 29 22:19 |
| yuhong | In fact, that is only part of it. | Jun 29 22:20 |
| yuhong | I am trying to dig up another part. | Jun 29 22:20 |
| _Goblin | Im affraid I dont have time to sift through the chat log. | Jun 29 22:20 |
| MinceR | then again the tags show what $las$hdot has become. | Jun 29 22:20 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/irc-log-27062009.html | Jun 29 22:20 |
| yuhong | MinceR is anti-Apple, BTW. | Jun 29 22:21 |
| MinceR | that's really hard to tell, you see. | Jun 29 22:21 |
| yuhong | I disagree with that. | Jun 29 22:22 |
| _Goblin | ah... | Jun 29 22:22 |
| _Goblin | and? | Jun 29 22:23 |
| MinceR | yuhong, meet sarcasm. sarcasm, meet yuhong. | Jun 29 22:23 |
| yuhong | Sorry, another IRC log I want to refer seem not have been published yet. | Jun 29 22:23 |
| fewa | yuhong is a nutso apple fan-boi | Jun 29 22:23 |
| _Goblin | yuhong: thats a shame...oh well...we will look forward to it later. | Jun 29 22:23 |
| MinceR | he also seem to be pro-m$, if my faint memories are correct. | Jun 29 22:23 |
| yuhong | I am actually neutral, see that IRC log again. | Jun 29 22:24 |
| MinceR | yes, you keep saying you're neutral. | Jun 29 22:24 |
| fewa | that trys to make his points by telling others to read his past words that were poorely worded | Jun 29 22:24 |
| _Goblin | I am loosing the will to live here. | Jun 29 22:24 |
| MinceR | <yuhong> i'm neutral, everyone else is biased, so you should just take everything i say at face value and believe it as the word of God. | Jun 29 22:24 |
| _Goblin | I'm personally acidic....on the PH scale | Jun 29 22:24 |
| fewa | im basic | Jun 29 22:25 |
| fewa | we could make chlorine gas | Jun 29 22:25 |
| _Goblin | Im Cobol. | Jun 29 22:25 |
| yuhong | Yes, I did regret a few things about that IRC chat. | Jun 29 22:25 |
| yuhong | But that will have to wait until the log is published. | Jun 29 22:25 |
| _Goblin | cant wait. | Jun 29 22:25 |
| _Goblin | moving on.... | Jun 29 22:25 |
| fewa | cause i was so enthused the first time | Jun 29 22:25 |
| *yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060308]") | Jun 29 22:25 | |
| _Goblin | bye then. | Jun 29 22:26 |
| _Goblin | I've decided. I can't be in the correct universe....something must have happened to me on the way home......that just made no sense what so ever. | Jun 29 22:26 |
| _Goblin | I'm going for a smoke....maybe things will be clearer when I return. | Jun 29 22:27 |
| *mrguser (n=mirggi@1.pia.abpl.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 22:28 | |
| mrguser | It's me again. Guess waht os i'm using now? ... Symbian | Jun 29 22:30 |
| schestowitz | "Gentoo user" | Jun 29 22:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @beltzner: wonders if #firefox can hit trending topic status on Twitter. Keep it going, everyone. | Jun 29 22:32 | |
| _Goblin | Nope....its still not clear... | Jun 29 22:32 |
| _Goblin | Hello Mrguser....is this a game like animal, vegetable mineral..? | Jun 29 22:32 |
| _Goblin | What distro am I? ;) | Jun 29 22:33 |
| _Goblin | I use a reptile as a logo... | Jun 29 22:33 |
| _Goblin | I am in bed with Microsoft and I would love you to use Mono.... | Jun 29 22:33 |
| _Goblin | what am I? | Jun 29 22:33 |
| mrguser | I wish i could have htc hero, i would be too expensive now for me | Jun 29 22:34 |
| mrguser | s/i would be/it would be/ | Jun 29 22:34 |
| _Goblin | sorry, I thought we were playing the "what distro am I?" game. | Jun 29 22:34 |
| mrguser | But i suppose you all use openmoko then? | Jun 29 22:35 |
| *yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-96-240-114-114.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 22:35 | |
| _Goblin | I don't know....I use OpenVISTA. | Jun 29 22:35 |
| *tacone1 (n=Adium@151.80.27.208) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 22:35 | |
| yuhong | Actually that IRC log do have what I want. | Jun 29 22:36 |
| _Goblin | ahhhhhh | Jun 29 22:36 |
| yuhong | I don't think Apple open source is as bad as Microsoft open source. | Jun 29 22:37 |
| _Goblin | anyone see the old TV show Fraggle Rock? | Jun 29 22:37 |
| _Goblin | we are getting a very good emulation of it at the moment. | Jun 29 22:38 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/irc-log-28062009.html | Jun 29 22:38 |
| yuhong | I just missed it the first time. | Jun 29 22:38 |
| mrguser | Nice game. I'm a smiling cow with stripes like giraffes, sometime i'm pink letter. Who am i? | Jun 29 22:38 |
| _Goblin | Smiling cow? Ballmers wife? | Jun 29 22:38 |
| _Goblin | thats not very nice.... | Jun 29 22:38 |
| _Goblin | Im sure she's lovely. | Jun 29 22:39 |
| yuhong | I noticed that schestowitz called it rubbish. | Jun 29 22:39 |
| _Goblin | yep....I'm sure he did. | Jun 29 22:39 |
| yuhong | I don't agree, would love to hear other's opinions. | Jun 29 22:39 |
| _Goblin | I do agree...(whatever it was)....Can we end it there? | Jun 29 22:40 |
| yuhong | It was about this: | Jun 29 22:40 |
| yuhong | http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/28/1351220/The-Open-Source-Design-Conundrum | Jun 29 22:40 |
| yuhong | And that schestowitz called it rubbish. | Jun 29 22:40 |
| yuhong | I don't agree, would love to hear other's opinions. | Jun 29 22:40 |
| _Goblin | It is rubbish and I said so to you earlier. | Jun 29 22:41 |
| _Goblin | the innovation remark? | Jun 29 22:41 |
| _Goblin | I mentioned some examples.... | Jun 29 22:41 |
| _Goblin | enough said... | Jun 29 22:41 |
| yuhong | Ok, so you agree. | Jun 29 22:41 |
| fewa | yuhong, nobody cares | Jun 29 22:41 |
| yuhong | Ok. | Jun 29 22:41 |
| MinceR | yuhong: i, too will tell you it's rubbish. | Jun 29 22:41 |
| fewa | rubbish | Jun 29 22:42 |
| _Goblin | Fewa: If you were not here, I would have an honest held belief that I'd lost my mind....nothing is making any sense. | Jun 29 22:42 |
| fewa | _Goblin, they are trolls | Jun 29 22:42 |
| fewa | trolls dont make sense | Jun 29 22:42 |
| fewa | they appeal to fear | Jun 29 22:43 |
| fewa | misconstrued fear | Jun 29 22:43 |
| yuhong | Yep, FUD. | Jun 29 22:43 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 22:43 | |
| yuhong | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1284847 | Jun 29 22:43 |
| yuhong | I don't think Apple open source is as bad as Microsoft open source. | Jun 29 22:43 |
| _Goblin | thats nice. | Jun 29 22:43 |
| fewa | yuhong, and you spread alot of it | Jun 29 22:43 |
| _Goblin | he's spreading alot of something..... | Jun 29 22:43 |
| yuhong | What do you think is FUD? Because FUD is bad and spreading it is not good. | Jun 29 22:44 |
| _Goblin | lol | Jun 29 22:44 |
| schestowitz | fewa: some people still feed them, so they carry on. | Jun 29 22:44 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:44 |
| schestowitz | But it tells you what subjects matter | Jun 29 22:45 |
| schestowitz | Like in Slashdot | Jun 29 22:45 |
| schestowitz | They always hammer on the same subjects (the AstroTurfers that it) | Jun 29 22:45 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:45 |
| schestowitz | ODF, Munich's migration, etc. | Jun 29 22:45 |
| fewa | those point which they are most wrong | Jun 29 22:45 |
| yuhong | Right. | Jun 29 22:45 |
| schestowitz | You can tell what scares MS based on where the PR agents go | Jun 29 22:45 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:45 |
| schestowitz | Mono is a hot one for MS | Jun 29 22:45 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:45 |
| schestowitz | They want to make .NET industry std | Jun 29 22:46 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:46 |
| schestowitz | And Novell helps them | Jun 29 22:46 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:46 |
| mrguser | Yep | Jun 29 22:46 |
| schestowitz | Now RMS stands in the way | Jun 29 22:46 |
| yuhong | Good. | Jun 29 22:46 |
| schestowitz | So the MS intern says "f*ck you , Stallman" | Jun 29 22:46 |
| schestowitz | I.e. RMS is right | Jun 29 22:46 |
| schestowitz | MS is angry = good for FOSS | Jun 29 22:46 |
| yuhong | Mono is not as bad as MS-Novell deal, but still... | Jun 29 22:46 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 22:46 |
| fewa | MS credibility < * | Jun 29 22:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s ODF Lunch Paid Off < http://ping.fm/rXzbo > | Jun 29 22:47 | |
| schestowitz | I'll do a mono post | Jun 29 22:47 |
| schestowitz | It gives the trolls a hardon: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/29/gnome-mono-as-planned/#comments | Jun 29 22:47 |
| tacone1 | launchpaid.net ? :) | Jun 29 22:47 |
| schestowitz | Must mean that it's the right thing to bang on | Jun 29 22:47 |
| yuhong | I mean, what do you think is FUD *I am spreading*? Because FUD is bad and spreading it is not good. | Jun 29 22:47 |
| schestowitz | tabletop: lunchpaid | Jun 29 22:48 |
| yuhong | Why? | Jun 29 22:48 |
| yuhong | Mono is not as bad as MS-Novell deal. | Jun 29 22:48 |
| _Goblin | yuhong: Its not working. Give it up...you are merely highlighting what Roy is saying...tell your employer you need a new tactic... | Jun 29 22:48 |
| yuhong | I did not intend to talk about mono. | Jun 29 22:49 |
| mrguser | Stallman said that mono isn't bad, but we shouldn't relay on such technologies | Jun 29 22:50 |
| yuhong | Except that it was not my intent. | Jun 29 22:50 |
| yuhong | Not working, maybe, but it is not my intent. | Jun 29 22:50 |
| _Goblin | lovely. | Jun 29 22:50 |
| tacone1 | mrguser: stallman said mono is probably dangerous | Jun 29 22:50 |
| yuhong | Not as dangerous as MS-Novell deal, but still not good. | Jun 29 22:51 |
| mrguser | Yes, if you base whole gnome on it | Jun 29 22:51 |
| tacone1 | he said that free implementations are good but mono seems dangerous and advises to try diminuish risks | Jun 29 22:51 |
| mrguser | Yes, it's dangerous, but because of novell | Jun 29 22:52 |
| _Goblin | Mono is only an issue if devs adopt....Tomboy for example? its hardly an essential app...theres plenty of alternatives.. | Jun 29 22:52 |
| yuhong | Not as dangerous as MS tax, but still not good. | Jun 29 22:52 |
| yuhong | Such as Gnote | Jun 29 22:52 |
| mrguser | because some day Novell will try to put in some patented technologies. | Jun 29 22:53 |
| mrguser | gnote, keepnote etc. Many of them | Jun 29 22:53 |
| mrguser | but thanks to ms cach, mono apps will be more polished. They are standing on giant's shoulders, so they can see farer | Jun 29 22:54 |
| yuhong | I also enjoy reading the discussions. | Jun 29 22:55 |
| mrguser | s/cach/cash | Jun 29 22:55 |
| yuhong | On slashdot. | Jun 29 22:55 |
| mrguser | btw. I really advise to try exherbo, i'm putting big hopes on it. | Jun 29 22:56 |
| yuhong | Yep, trolls often try new tactics. | Jun 29 22:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #kubuntu 9.10 sound was fine in 2.6.30-8, broken in 2.6.30-10. argh. #ubuntu #karmic | Jun 29 22:57 | |
| yuhong | Anyway, all the Apple chat was fun. | Jun 29 22:58 |
| mrguser | Yep, sound in linux is a little fu**d | Jun 29 22:58 |
| *yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060308]") | Jun 29 22:58 | |
| MinceR | ...until you kill pulseaudio with fire. | Jun 29 23:00 |
| mrguser | Yes, alsa works for me, but when i read about those problems with pa | Jun 29 23:03 |
| mrguser | I'm waiting for some good linux arm notebooks. They should appear in q3. | Jun 29 23:04 |
| mrguser | And when i read about nvidia and their anti-linux behaviour i wonder why? | Jun 29 23:05 |
| mrguser | because ms offered them good contract in zune? | Jun 29 23:06 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Are you getting excited for #Firefox 3.5? So are we!!!!!!! http://bit.ly/EKWD1 | Jun 29 23:07 | |
| fewa | trmanco, they used the video for everybody template :P | Jun 29 23:12 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jun 29 23:12 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 23:13 | |
| *PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 29 23:14 | |
| mrguser | Yep | Jun 29 23:15 |
| *yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-96-240-114-114.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 23:16 | |
| yuhong | On the matter of Apple's open source, it is not as bad as Microsoft's open source. | Jun 29 23:17 |
| yuhong | IMO. | Jun 29 23:17 |
| *yuhong has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 29 23:18 | |
| ugufjhfj | schestowitz | Jun 29 23:19 |
| schestowitz | ACK | Jun 29 23:20 |
| ugufjhfj | I don't understand why some people try to push mono on linux, while microsoft seem not using .NET in their OS... | Jun 29 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Vista does not use .NET | Jun 29 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Maybe cause it's slow, maybe cause it's code monkeys can't get past VB | Jun 29 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they need a major rewrite | Jun 29 23:21 |
| ugufjhfj | it's a optional component | Jun 29 23:21 |
| schestowitz | But that would be suicidal as they are already lagging behind the competition | Jun 29 23:21 |
| ugufjhfj | why in linux then... | Jun 29 23:21 |
| ugufjhfj | its cool ? | Jun 29 23:22 |
| schestowitz | Novell is part of the problem | Jun 29 23:22 |
| oiaohm | ugufjhfj: cause is one of Gnome old project leads is the lead developer of Mono. | Jun 29 23:22 |
| schestowitz | Ximian and the genesis of it.. | Jun 29 23:22 |
| schestowitz | Nat Friedman is from Microsoft | Jun 29 23:22 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu also took a manager from Microsoft | Jun 29 23:22 |
| mrguser | I was wondering why ms is promoting .net so much. Because apps will work on every future relase of windows? Even no matter pc or embeded (with some minor rewrites)? | Jun 29 23:23 |
| schestowitz | So they push what they learned at MS into Linux | Jun 29 23:23 |
| oiaohm | So person had a high ammount of respect so people followed the Mono lead developer without questioning. | Jun 29 23:23 |
| *tacone1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jun 29 23:23 | |
| ugufjhfj | a have never seen great .NET apps in windows... | Jun 29 23:24 |
| oiaohm | .Net basically picks up were VB left off. | Jun 29 23:24 |
| oiaohm | MS kinda needs .net mrguser | Jun 29 23:25 |
| oiaohm | For years computer world has been one CPU type. That is starting to break up. | Jun 29 23:25 |
| oiaohm | key idea of .net is a processor netural bytecode. | Jun 29 23:25 |
| mrguser | So they can jump | Jun 29 23:26 |
| mrguser | to other cpus, and users can have their apps? | Jun 29 23:26 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 29 23:26 |
| oiaohm | I personally think .net is designed wrong. | Jun 29 23:26 |
| _Goblin | Putting the possible patent trap issue aside, the reason why I have issue with Mono is that because regardless of what it is, it is an implimentation of MS standards (of sorts) weve seen the MONO runtime, weve seen Microsoft "standards" and anything that seeks to lead Linux down a bloated Microsoft path is wrong (IMO)...Linux was built on the hardwork and innovation of thousands of people WITHOUT MS "standards"...we do not need | Jun 29 23:26 |
| fewa | but we have that with ruby, and python, and perl/parrot (both source and bytecode) | Jun 29 23:26 |
| oiaohm | But the idea of a processor netural bytecode has its places. | Jun 29 23:26 |
| *yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-96-240-114-114.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 23:26 | |
| fewa | and java has been around for ages with bytecode, | Jun 29 23:27 |
| fewa | its just NIH syndrome | Jun 29 23:27 |
| oiaohm | Java bytecode design and .net are different. | Jun 29 23:27 |
| oiaohm | .net bytecode design moves closer to native code than what java is. | Jun 29 23:27 |
| fewa | but what about parrot, or llvm? | Jun 29 23:28 |
| oiaohm | llvm does not have a standard exportable bytecode. If it did it could beat the living crap out of .net | Jun 29 23:28 |
| oiaohm | parrot is not targeted at building native executables. | Jun 29 23:29 |
| oiaohm | You have to remember MS .Net is using AOT not JIT most of the time. | Jun 29 23:29 |
| mrguser | Someone said that web is biggest human application platform. Look how easy palm pre made writing applications: html+js | Jun 29 23:29 |
| fewa | what is AOT? | Jun 29 23:29 |
| oiaohm | Ahead of time. | Jun 29 23:29 |
| oiaohm | Basically turn the bytecode into native code once. | Jun 29 23:29 |
| fewa | ahh, meaning endless turn around test cycle | Jun 29 23:30 |
| oiaohm | There is a cache in the .net PE executable particulically to store the AOT for windows. | Jun 29 23:30 |
| yuhong | Yep, ngen. | Jun 29 23:31 |
| yuhong | Now, tell me which FUD I am spreading. | Jun 29 23:31 |
| mrguser | About mono. What was the issue that it's hard to obtain royalty free licence for c# implementation? | Jun 29 23:31 |
| oiaohm | Mono is a mixture of things. | Jun 29 23:31 |
| oiaohm | Number one no one including the project lead of mono has a clear patent status on it. | Jun 29 23:32 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 29 23:32 |
| oiaohm | Number two mono is techincally incompadible with most of the opensource world desktops by design. | Jun 29 23:33 |
| mrguser | But what is the case? Do i have to obtain licence to make my implemetation of java? | Jun 29 23:33 |
| oiaohm | The incompadiblity leads to mono needing heavy wrappers. | Jun 29 23:33 |
| yuhong | Mono is not as bad as MS-Novell deal, but yes mono has problems. | Jun 29 23:33 |
| ugufjhfj | there is some mono app for KDE? | Jun 29 23:33 |
| oiaohm | Basically not one mono application for kde ugufjhfj | Jun 29 23:34 |
| oiaohm | Mono developers complain about KDE developers pushing them to edge all the time. | Jun 29 23:34 |
| oiaohm | mrguser: sun licenced java in such as way that if you follow java standard you can use the patents at no charge. | Jun 29 23:35 |
| oiaohm | mrguser: if you get the idea of extending java in a non cross platform way the patents on java will eat you for lunch. | Jun 29 23:36 |
| *tacone (n=Adium@151.83.11.53) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 29 23:36 | |
| yuhong | Yep, MS tried to embarse and extend java. | Jun 29 23:36 |
| oiaohm | And sun got savage. | Jun 29 23:36 |
| mrguser | Ok | Jun 29 23:37 |
| oiaohm | Open source implenetaton in gcc is done with suns blessing same with many other closed source java engines. | Jun 29 23:37 |
| oiaohm | Now use of the java brand that is a another matter. | Jun 29 23:37 |
| mrguser | is ooo still behind sofmaker when it comes to ms office compatiblity? http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-716307-highlight-.html | Jun 29 23:37 |
| oiaohm | If you want to brand your device as java using you have to pay so much for the means to brand that. | Jun 29 23:38 |
| cj | http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/thepimp/faq | Jun 29 23:38 |
| mrguser | i read somewhere that apache guys are pissed off, because sun is making some barriers to have harmony certification | Jun 29 23:39 |
| mrguser | and that javafx isn't on jcp path because sun want to control it to much? | Jun 29 23:40 |
| oiaohm | Sun is a business. | Jun 29 23:42 |
| oiaohm | Ok was a business. | Jun 29 23:42 |
| yuhong | Yep | Jun 29 23:42 |
| oiaohm | Once a jvm was certified it could have the java logo used on the device containing. | Jun 29 23:42 |
| oiaohm | So making it simple was not in sun best interest. | Jun 29 23:43 |
| oiaohm | Still apache guys always knew were they legally stood. | Jun 29 23:44 |
| mrguser | Oh, i see | Jun 29 23:44 |
| mrguser | apache is a big contributor to java family | Jun 29 23:44 |
| oiaohm | There will always be pressure between the standard maker and the implementors. | Jun 29 23:44 |
| mrguser | and it all started with http server | Jun 29 23:45 |
| oiaohm | The apache sun issue lot of mono guys try to use as a smoke screen. Issues are no where near the same. | Jun 29 23:45 |
| mrguser | Ok | Jun 29 23:46 |
| *yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.11/2009060308]") | Jun 29 23:46 | |
| oiaohm | Without doing a bug to bug compare with softmaker I could not tell you want the engine is. | Jun 29 23:47 |
| oiaohm | There are a few different MS Office processing engines out there. | Jun 29 23:47 |
| *mrguser has quit ("mIRGGI meni puis") | Jun 29 23:56 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mono Proponents Do Not Address the Real Questions < http://ping.fm/ewCxx > | Jun 29 23:57 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!