| yuhong | "Therefore, believe me or not, my twisted radar tells me that in the long run, Tomboy and F-Spot are going to boost the sales of Microsoft Dynamics, which is a .NET range of products." | Jul 08 00:09 |
|---|---|---|
| yuhong | I would not go that far. | Jul 08 00:09 |
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| Motoko-chan | Good evening. | Jul 08 01:45 |
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| wimpy | Did Roy Schestowitz really cut off his nuts for Linux? | Jul 08 01:57 |
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| wimpy | Just asking. Lot's of information on Google about Schestowitz and castration | Jul 08 01:59 |
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| shestowitz, are you back? | Jul 08 03:05 | |
| Hope you had a nice vacation. Keep taking it easy, the M$ idiots are at their wits end. | Jul 08 03:06 | |
| Seems like Miguel's blog has "moderation" after all. My comment never showed up there. | Jul 08 03:10 | |
| I pointed out that his own statements contradicted his smear of Roy. Even Miguel recognizes that M$'s promise is a half loaf kind of answer and that leaves us all with the same king of guessing as before. What exactly will M$ sue for? They won't say. | Jul 08 03:13 | |
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| Motoko-chan | Well, with the latest community whatever-it's-called, we know they won't sue for C# or the CLR. | Jul 08 03:39 |
| Motoko-chan | The whole .NET library stuff is still unknown | Jul 08 03:40 |
| Situation normal, no change detected. | Jul 08 03:41 | |
| Motoko-chan | Well, not really. | Jul 08 03:42 |
| Motoko-chan | Any patents for those were RAND, not free for use | Jul 08 03:42 |
| M$ is full of shit as usual. | Jul 08 03:42 | |
| One one hand, they say only Novell is free to distribute mono. On the other hand, they pretend everyone is. | Jul 08 03:43 | |
| It's called lying and M$ is famous for it. | Jul 08 03:43 | |
| Even their goofy "Community Promise" is full of restrictions, contradictions and other weasel words. | Jul 08 03:44 | |
| Motoko-chan | Hey, it could be worse. | Jul 08 03:44 |
| Motoko-chan | It's an advance, however small. | Jul 08 03:44 |
| Motoko-chan | Still have to wonder what they are up to. | Jul 08 03:45 |
| Motoko-chan | My bet is they want some big target to slip. | Jul 08 03:45 |
| Motoko-chan | They don't make money for C#. They make money on .NET. | Jul 08 03:45 |
| Bullshit + Bullshit = Bullshit. You are at step #1. | Jul 08 03:45 | |
| I don't care about their money. | Jul 08 03:46 | |
| I care about my computer working and not being sued. | Jul 08 03:46 | |
| going with mono threatens both of those objectives. | Jul 08 03:46 | |
| why bother? | Jul 08 03:46 | |
| Motoko-chan | Hey, I don't contest that. | Jul 08 03:46 |
| Motoko-chan | I think it's a huge waste of space. | Jul 08 03:47 |
| Because they promise not to sue for 1/20th of what's there? | Jul 08 03:47 | |
| Motoko-chan | Which is probably a better argument than the patent stuff. | Jul 08 03:47 |
| M$ will cease to be a threat when they do one of two things: Implode into bankruptcy or GPL all of their own code. | Jul 08 03:47 | |
| Motoko-chan | I would rather have an 80 meg application than a 10 meg one that needs 200 meg of libraries. | Jul 08 03:47 |
| They will probably bankrupt before they go honest. | Jul 08 03:48 | |
| Motoko-chan | I do have some issues with the GPL, but I hear you. | Jul 08 03:48 |
| As long as they try to ship their second rate OS as non free software, they are still clueless. | Jul 08 03:49 | |
| No one would willingly subject themselves to M$'s restrictions if they had a software clue. | Jul 08 03:49 | |
| Oh well. The news is there is no news. | Jul 08 03:50 | |
| Motoko-chan | The problem is the ecosystem. | Jul 08 03:50 |
| Motoko-chan | It's Microsoft-centric. | Jul 08 03:50 |
| That is changing fast enough. | Jul 08 03:50 | |
| Motoko-chan | True. | Jul 08 03:50 |
| M$ has few carrots left. | Jul 08 03:50 | |
| Motoko-chan | I'd love to see Adobe port their apps. | Jul 08 03:50 |
| They are all stick. | Jul 08 03:50 | |
| Motoko-chan | If nothing more than to spur development on GIMP. | Jul 08 03:50 |
| ? | Jul 08 03:51 | |
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| Motoko-chan | Which is moving in a nice way, although slowly. | Jul 08 03:51 |
| GIMP is feature complete. | Jul 08 03:51 | |
| What are you missing? | Jul 08 03:51 | |
| eh, gotta go. | Jul 08 03:51 | |
| Motoko-chan | Layer masks, layer effects, mask etc. | Jul 08 03:51 |
| Motoko-chan | Some of the more advanced stuff, basically. | Jul 08 03:51 |
| Motoko-chan | See you. | Jul 08 03:51 |
| I thought GIMP had that. Hmph. | Jul 08 03:52 | |
| Motoko-chan | Not last I checked. | Jul 08 03:52 |
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| Motoko-chan | It does have a new color engine, which will allow non-destructive edits. | Jul 08 03:52 |
| amarsh04 | Motoko-chan... most libraries used I could find was gtk-gnash 374 kB binary, 44 MB libraries | Jul 08 04:05 |
| amarsh04 | 2.4 gig of files in my /usr/lib | Jul 08 04:07 |
| Motoko-chan | Hm? | Jul 08 04:08 |
| Motoko-chan | Ah. | Jul 08 04:08 |
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| Omar87 | Hi there. | Jul 08 07:08 |
| Omar87 | So, why are we not seeing any new BN articles over at FSDaily? | Jul 08 07:09 |
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| Bwa, ha ha. http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=20815 | Jul 08 07:45 | |
| why dink around with that non free OS, when all you want is a browser? | Jul 08 07:45 | |
| -> The Chrome OS is being designed to power computers that range from small netbooks to full-size desktop machines. The Chrome OS is a direct attack against Microsoft’s lucrative - albeit vulnerable - Windows operating system. By now, it’s no secret that Windows Vista was a nightmare and that Microsoft is eager to launch its Windows 7 operating system, which is scheduled for release in the fall.) | Jul 08 07:46 | |
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| http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html | Jul 08 07:47 | |
| -> We hear a lot from our users and their message is clear — computers need to get better. People want to get to their email instantly, without wasting time waiting for their computers to boot and browsers to start up. They want their computers to always run as fast as when they first bought them. They want their data to be accessible to them wherever they are and not have to worry about losing their computer or forgetting to back | Jul 08 07:47 | |
| Watch M$ implode. | Jul 08 07:48 | |
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| Omar87 | twitter: With Google now building it's new netbook-oriented (and Linux-powered) OS, it's only a matter of time until Microsoft's Windows melts and evaporates. :) | Jul 08 08:01 |
| Windows already melted, it was called Vista. | Jul 08 08:01 | |
| http://slashdot.org/submission/1034549/Google-Enters-OS-Market-for-Real | Jul 08 08:07 | |
| M$ deathwatch updated http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707 | Jul 08 08:09 | |
| my last submission is very popular but the trolls labeled it "twitterspam" http://slashdot.org/submission/1032909/3-Years-in-Jail-for-Web-Protest-and-Encrypted-Mail | Jul 08 08:10 | |
| I did not use M$ or mention that beastly company once, ha ha. | Jul 08 08:11 | |
| Astroturf fail. | Jul 08 08:11 | |
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| Omar87 | Bottom line: M$ is no longer a threat to FOSS. But of course, this should only make us more cautious. | Jul 08 08:19 |
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| BobSprite | I dont think either one is a threat to the other, | Jul 08 08:30 |
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| balzac | well, the google brand is about strong enough to launch an OS | Jul 08 10:18 |
| balzac | that's good news | Jul 08 10:18 |
| MinceR | as long as you trust google, that is | Jul 08 10:18 |
| balzac | This is Google dropping the mother of bombs on its chief rival, Microsoft. | Jul 08 10:18 |
| balzac | I don't, of course. | Jul 08 10:18 |
| balzac | I'm just happy to see M$ getting some competition. | Jul 08 10:19 |
| balzac | Google drops a MOAB on M$ | Jul 08 10:19 |
| BobSprite | no one is going to use a google OS, | Jul 08 10:20 |
| oiaohm | Google mother of bombs is something MS has feared a Internet based OS. | Jul 08 10:20 |
| oiaohm | Applications without any platform links. | Jul 08 10:20 |
| MinceR | i'm happy to see them getting competition, too | Jul 08 10:20 |
| MinceR | i'll read up on this stuff and see if it's gnu/linux compatible | Jul 08 10:21 |
| balzac | BobSprite: why do you say that? | Jul 08 10:21 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft always has attacked google believing they would win. | Jul 08 10:21 |
| balzac | http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html | Jul 08 10:22 |
| balzac | usually the attacker fails | Jul 08 10:22 |
| oiaohm | Google I don't fear too much. | Jul 08 10:22 |
| oiaohm | Doing something not cross platform supporting is not in googles best interest. | Jul 08 10:22 |
| BobSprite | how do we know what is in Googles interest ? | Jul 08 10:23 |
| BobSprite | making money no.1 | Jul 08 10:23 |
| MinceR | we can't really know google's long-term plans | Jul 08 10:24 |
| oiaohm | Advertising | Jul 08 10:24 |
| oiaohm | Google makes most of there money from that. | Jul 08 10:24 |
| BobSprite | well making money, from advertising. | Jul 08 10:24 |
| oiaohm | For advertising means wanting the most people possiable able to access it. | Jul 08 10:24 |
| oiaohm | So you can make the most profit. | Jul 08 10:24 |
| oiaohm | It goes against googles means to make profit to be too restrictive. | Jul 08 10:25 |
| MinceR | they can do a lot more with the data they're collecting | Jul 08 10:25 |
| BobSprite | thats right, and whats the most popular OS now ?? and fo rthe past 20 years ? | Jul 08 10:25 |
| oiaohm | Depends where BobSprite | Jul 08 10:25 |
| oiaohm | Supers Linux. | Jul 08 10:25 |
| oiaohm | Embed the OS owned by Nokia. | Jul 08 10:26 |
| oiaohm | Desktops MS. | Jul 08 10:26 |
| balzac | BobSprite: it took that long for institutions and corporations to be built around around the modern software licenses | Jul 08 10:26 |
| oiaohm | Problem is all three are going head to head with each other for the desktop. | Jul 08 10:26 |
| oiaohm | There are about 100 times more embeded devices sold per year as desktops. | Jul 08 10:26 |
| balzac | now Google is humongous and they might as well hit Microsoft in the soft under-belly | Jul 08 10:27 |
| oiaohm | MS is really a small fish who does not know it yet. | Jul 08 10:27 |
| balzac | Google is doing the Jean Claude Van Damme drop to a split and cock-punch your rival | Jul 08 10:27 |
| balzac | to put it in bad action movie terms... | Jul 08 10:28 |
| oiaohm | More web based our usage becomes less important the desktop becomes. | Jul 08 10:28 |
| BobSprite | I dont know if MS has a soft underbelly, but sure MS is getting into the search business, Why not google getting into the OS market, | Jul 08 10:28 |
| oiaohm | More web based more profit google can make. | Jul 08 10:28 |
| balzac | BobSprite: Microsoft is all belly | Jul 08 10:28 |
| balzac | they're one giant blob, like a decaying giant squid washed up on the beach | Jul 08 10:29 |
| oiaohm | So far MS attempts at search have all be while elephents. | Jul 08 10:29 |
| oiaohm | So far all google OS sales have been profitable. | Jul 08 10:29 |
| balzac | even with no competition, they're liable to collapse like the USSR just from too many layers of hierarchy | Jul 08 10:29 |
| balzac | too much dead weight, too many dilberts | Jul 08 10:29 |
| BobSprite | and yet they domonate the market so completely. and they certainly were not the first | Jul 08 10:29 |
| oiaohm | Ie selling search systems to big business on custom linux systems as google has been doing. | Jul 08 10:29 |
| balzac | yeah, but they're decaying already | Jul 08 10:30 |
| oiaohm | Google has a hardware side. | Jul 08 10:30 |
| oiaohm | So google could in theory to a apple. | Jul 08 10:30 |
| balzac | BobSprite: lack of integrity - Microsoft doesn't have enough connective tissue | Jul 08 10:30 |
| oiaohm | MS does not really have a hardware department. | Jul 08 10:30 |
| oiaohm | Depends on other makers to provide hardware to sell product. | Jul 08 10:30 |
| oiaohm | So makes MS a sitting duck. | Jul 08 10:30 |
| oiaohm | MS is also not that healthy BobSprite | Jul 08 10:31 |
| BobSprite | well, in reality it is very healthy, even in this economic downturn. | Jul 08 10:32 |
| oiaohm | MS has only been trying to get in the search business for the last 10 years. | Jul 08 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Compared to there competitors MS is really sick money wise BobSprite. | Jul 08 10:32 |
| BobSprite | what competitors ? | Jul 08 10:33 |
| balzac | BobSprite: people said the same about Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, Meryll Lynch, etc. | Jul 08 10:33 |
| balzac | Suppose M$ is doing creative accounting like every other multi-billion dollar megacorporation? | Jul 08 10:33 |
| balzac | cooking their books... | Jul 08 10:33 |
| oiaohm | Oracle Google IBM HP Nokia.... List goes on. | Jul 08 10:34 |
| BobSprite | your saying that, its just a guess, wishfull thinking at best. | Jul 08 10:34 |
| oiaohm | All have 1 thing in common BobSprite | Jul 08 10:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux. | Jul 08 10:34 |
| oiaohm | IBM had downturn in the MS departments offset by increased Linux sales. | Jul 08 10:34 |
| balzac | And Microsoft has impaired their own ability to use Microsoft by talking trash all these years. | Jul 08 10:35 |
| oiaohm | So effectively this downturn did nothing to IBM. | Jul 08 10:35 |
| balzac | Novell is their representation in the GNU/Linux arena and Novell isn't fairing well | Jul 08 10:35 |
| oiaohm | Most companies in the software world are not shedding departments. | Jul 08 10:35 |
| oiaohm | Only one doing that is MS. | Jul 08 10:35 |
| balzac | You can't fight in the streets with no street cred, when everyone knows you're a snitch working for the man | Jul 08 10:35 |
| Ng | oiaohm: google has been laying off too | Jul 08 10:36 |
| BobSprite | something FOSS knows all too well. | Jul 08 10:36 |
| balzac | So Microsoft isn't switching to GNU/Linux like IBM, Sun, and the rest who used to have proprietary operating systems... | Jul 08 10:36 |
| oiaohm | Ng google has not shed departments. Staff reductions yes. | Jul 08 10:36 |
| balzac | Microsoft's best bet is to seize onto BSD | Jul 08 10:37 |
| Ng | balzac: why does microsoft need a unix exactly? they have a huge software ecosystem already | Jul 08 10:38 |
| oiaohm | Yet all the department cutting and staff cutting MS has done so far has had no real change on there lower profit. | Jul 08 10:38 |
| BobSprite | Compared to FOSS and BSD, MS should just continue to do what they are doing, clearly its working great for them. | Jul 08 10:38 |
| oiaohm | Its not working. | Jul 08 10:38 |
| oiaohm | Everything started going wrong with netbooks. | Jul 08 10:38 |
| balzac | Ng: well, because their software sucks | Jul 08 10:38 |
| oiaohm | And it has not got better yet. | Jul 08 10:38 |
| balzac | Also, everyone else is standardized on *nix | Jul 08 10:39 |
| Ng | balzac: that's a subjective opinion :) | Jul 08 10:39 |
| oiaohm | MS had the idea that dumping XP in the netbooks would kill Linux off for good then they would be able to latter on lift price. | Jul 08 10:39 |
| balzac | the *nix software ecosystem has more integrity | Jul 08 10:39 |
| oiaohm | Now Google and others are lining up to get into the netbook game to hold price down. | Jul 08 10:39 |
| BobSprite | yes, you keep saying that, but that does not make it even close to being true, mabey what you wish it was | Jul 08 10:39 |
| balzac | Ng: how did microsoft go all these years without a proper shell? | Jul 08 10:40 |
| Ng | if I was microsoft I'd be shedding all the departments that aren't making money, which is pretty much all of their non-windows/office/server ones ;) | Jul 08 10:40 |
| balzac | it's not subjective. | Jul 08 10:40 |
| oiaohm | Biggest black hole they have is search Ng. | Jul 08 10:40 |
| Ng | balzac: because there's more than one way to control computers? shells might be fantastic, but they're not mandatory | Jul 08 10:40 |
| balzac | Ng: they are mandatory for power users. | Jul 08 10:40 |
| balzac | Microsoft is outside the mainstream. The last consumer-grade, toy OS. | Jul 08 10:40 |
| BobSprite | ofcourse its subjective "If I were running MS" crap | Jul 08 10:41 |
| Ng | balzac: and yet somehow people have been using windows for years without a shell, so your argument defeats itself ;) | Jul 08 10:41 |
| balzac | Apple was the other and now they're BSD-based | Jul 08 10:41 |
| balzac | Ng: they have been, but not very effectively. :0) | Jul 08 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Besides next problem is going to be a hit in MS server side. | Jul 08 10:42 |
| balzac | what do you do when you want to grep something? | Jul 08 10:42 |
| balzac | or sed? | Jul 08 10:42 |
| oiaohm | Samba will be able to provide a unlimited cal Active Directory server by end of year. | Jul 08 10:42 |
| BobSprite | you dont think you can do that in DOS or powershell ? | Jul 08 10:42 |
| balzac | powershell is new, right? | Jul 08 10:42 |
| oiaohm | By by lots of MS server side profit. | Jul 08 10:42 |
| balzac | I'm talking about all those years Windows users went along pretending they were computer power users | Jul 08 10:43 |
| BobSprite | all those tools have been available for as long as I can remember, is a shallow argument saying shell is a big Linux bonus, its just not. | Jul 08 10:43 |
| balzac | when they were really scratching their heads like chimpanzees while unix power users were and are the real deal | Jul 08 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Difference mind cdburing from powershell please BobSprite. | Jul 08 10:43 |
| oiaohm | I can from my Linux shell. | Jul 08 10:44 |
| BobSprite | so ?? big deal. | Jul 08 10:44 |
| oiaohm | Its one thing to have a shell. | Jul 08 10:44 |
| balzac | the CLI makes a computer transparent | Jul 08 10:44 |
| oiaohm | Its another thing to have all the addon applications so it can do everything. | Jul 08 10:44 |
| balzac | it has to be well implemented | Jul 08 10:44 |
| BobSprite | good for you, then use it and be happy | Jul 08 10:44 |
| oiaohm | Powershell is a poor imintation of what Linux shell scripts can do. | Jul 08 10:45 |
| balzac | BobSprite: I'll use it and be happy all the way to the bank | Jul 08 10:45 |
| oiaohm | MS slowly cut away lot of the command line tools that made dos effective. | Jul 08 10:45 |
| BobSprite | good im glad for you, and ill use what I like and be just as happy and just as rich | Jul 08 10:45 |
| balzac | as I compete for contracts against proprietary software software specialists | Jul 08 10:45 |
| balzac | BobSprite: i'm bound for glory | Jul 08 10:46 |
| BobSprite | good for you | Jul 08 10:46 |
| balzac | my ego is humongous | Jul 08 10:46 |
| BobSprite | yes | Jul 08 10:46 |
| oiaohm | Remember the Linux boot process run for years on bash the same shell you used on command line Linux. | Jul 08 10:46 |
| oiaohm | So you have 1 script style threw out the complete system. | Jul 08 10:46 |
| oiaohm | MS has always been changing there mind. | Jul 08 10:47 |
| balzac | throughout | Jul 08 10:47 |
| balzac | oiaohm: exactly | Jul 08 10:47 |
| oiaohm | So there shells never developed to a highly usable level. | Jul 08 10:47 |
| balzac | they're not part of a stable legacy with academic roots | Jul 08 10:47 |
| BobSprite | then you dont use MS | Jul 08 10:47 |
| balzac | BobSprite: we want the market share | Jul 08 10:47 |
| oiaohm | I do BobSprite I am a system admin. | Jul 08 10:47 |
| BobSprite | IF you dont like MS dont use it, and dont whine about it. | Jul 08 10:47 |
| oiaohm | I use Linux and Windows. | Jul 08 10:47 |
| BobSprite | so do i, your point ? | Jul 08 10:48 |
| oiaohm | I don't have the option I have to use what empolyer wants . | Jul 08 10:48 |
| oiaohm | The don't use it bit does not apply to me. | Jul 08 10:48 |
| oiaohm | Its not my free selection. | Jul 08 10:48 |
| balzac | BobSprite: I'm not whining, I'm like a carrion bird croaking. | Jul 08 10:48 |
| oiaohm | My free selection I would not be using windows. | Jul 08 10:48 |
| Ng | oiaohm: so select a job somewhere that doesn't use windows :) | Jul 08 10:49 |
| Ng | I haven't done any windows admin for years \o/ | Jul 08 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Tax office here is also a issue. | Jul 08 10:49 |
| balzac | caw! | Jul 08 10:49 |
| oiaohm | You cannot interface with it if you don't run windows. | Jul 08 10:49 |
| oiaohm | So sorry not a option. | Jul 08 10:49 |
| balzac | Looks like meat's back on the menu boys! | Jul 08 10:49 |
| oiaohm | No matter where I go in this country I would have to use some windows. | Jul 08 10:49 |
| balzac | Microsoft's marketshare is on the menu. | Jul 08 10:49 |
| BobSprite | I just seems you talk about it an awefull lot for someone who does not like it, | Jul 08 10:50 |
| balzac | who? | Jul 08 10:50 |
| BobSprite | all of you, you seem obsessed with all that is MS. | Jul 08 10:50 |
| balzac | BobSprite: it's because we're laying seige | Jul 08 10:50 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: personally I would prefer if you could provide a decent defence argument. | Jul 08 10:51 |
| balzac | we know of all the spoils within | Jul 08 10:51 |
| oiaohm | So far you don't. | Jul 08 10:51 |
| BobSprite | does not seem to be working well for you, all you do is call attention to the product you hate, you would be better off promoting your own product. | Jul 08 10:51 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: instead of attacking people. | Jul 08 10:51 |
| balzac | Microsoft's billions - just a few million will be quite a lot for me. | Jul 08 10:51 |
| balzac | BobSprite: not so. | Jul 08 10:51 |
| BobSprite | political hate talk and opposition smear campains rarly work. | Jul 08 10:52 |
| balzac | Calling attention the weakness of M$ informs their allies who abandon them, and energizes our reinforcements who join us. | Jul 08 10:52 |
| balzac | BobSprite: no hatred, only pragmatic focus on the bottom line. | Jul 08 10:52 |
| balzac | It's just business, man. | Jul 08 10:52 |
| BobSprite | except your been doing it for what 20 years now and how's it working ?? is MS destroyed and FOSS leader of the universe ? | Jul 08 10:52 |
| oiaohm | Counting and tracking cals is a waste of money. | Jul 08 10:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Should I send my candidacy to be the next President of the EPO? http://bit.ly/jAbo9 | Jul 08 10:53 | |
| BobSprite | The answer is Foss is still where it allways was. | Jul 08 10:53 |
| balzac | BobSprite: it's like a war drum that keeps getting louder. | Jul 08 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Linux has had no interest in desktop until 2000 | Jul 08 10:53 |
| balzac | boom boom boOM BOOM BOOM! | Jul 08 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Most of the Open source world treated desktop as a joke up until then. | Jul 08 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Thing finding X11 stuffed that really screwed things. | Jul 08 10:53 |
| BobSprite | well I was using Linux on the desktop in 1996 as a replacement of win 95 | Jul 08 10:54 |
| balzac | Yep, all those proprietary Unix OSes had to fall first | Jul 08 10:54 |
| BobSprite | RH 7.2 | Jul 08 10:54 |
| balzac | now there's no one between GNU and M$ | Jul 08 10:54 |
| oiaohm | I was using Linux before that BobSprite. | Jul 08 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Issues of running Linux on desktop back then were many. | Jul 08 10:55 |
| BobSprite | yes so was I but not for the desktop for routers and servers well before that | Jul 08 10:55 |
| oiaohm | 1996 was just playing with the idea of desktop. | Jul 08 10:55 |
| BobSprite | I was building and programming computers in teh 1970's | Jul 08 10:55 |
| balzac | BobSprite: what's your point? | Jul 08 10:56 |
| oiaohm | 2002 with the first video card company group build looked it it would turn good soon. Then Nvidia walked way from the table resulting in that breaking up. | Jul 08 10:56 |
| oiaohm | 2004 intel took up the X11 issue. | Jul 08 10:56 |
| balzac | I met old unix guys who still don't understand modern software licensing, they're still using Solaris and they're pissed about GNU/Linux | Jul 08 10:56 |
| oiaohm | So by 2010 the base required to truly build a working desktop on Linux and other Foss OS's will exist. | Jul 08 10:57 |
| oiaohm | You cannot build a fully working desktop without the support. | Jul 08 10:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Oral proceedings at the EPO for other pending cases then swpats: http://tinyurl.com/ox6khu When will it be for G3/08? | Jul 08 10:58 | |
| BobSprite | I bet it will not take on, and that Linux on the desktop will remain where it is now. | Jul 08 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Unlikely. | Jul 08 10:58 |
| oiaohm | Can you list what changes happing in the Linux kernel at moment effect desktop. | Jul 08 10:59 |
| BobSprite | unless something really different happens that has not for the past 18 years | Jul 08 10:59 |
| balzac | Just plot the growth and extrapolate | Jul 08 10:59 |
| balzac | GNU is bound for glory | Jul 08 10:59 |
| oiaohm | Yes something is different than what has happened to the last 18 years BobSprite. | Jul 08 10:59 |
| oiaohm | Way different. | Jul 08 10:59 |
| balzac | yeah, like a tipping point | Jul 08 10:59 |
| oiaohm | Linux developers are doing way with the different between real-time and standard kernel. | Jul 08 11:00 |
| oiaohm | So merging into 1 kernel. | Jul 08 11:00 |
| BobSprite | sure, 17 years and approx 1% desktop share, so at that rate, 200 or so years you will start to take hold | Jul 08 11:00 |
| balzac | BobSprite: that's an underestimation | Jul 08 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Features of the realtime tree are required to provide perfertly stable audio out put. | Jul 08 11:00 |
| balzac | but the servers are mostly running GNU/Linux | Jul 08 11:00 |
| oiaohm | KMS will give Linux equal to a windows blue screen of death. | Jul 08 11:00 |
| Aondo | oiaohm not to forget controlling robots | Jul 08 11:01 |
| oiaohm | That Linux has not had for the last 18 years BobSprite. | Jul 08 11:01 |
| balzac | KMS ? | Jul 08 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Kernel Mode Switching. | Jul 08 11:01 |
| Ng | Setting | Jul 08 11:01 |
| balzac | you suppose it will bring instability? | Jul 08 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Remove instability. | Jul 08 11:01 |
| balzac | oh, good | Jul 08 11:01 |
| Ng | KMS is essentially irrelevant to the success of the linux desktop, it's just a nice feature | Jul 08 11:01 |
| BobSprite | all the real time, and kernel most means nothing to the general user, and they wont care less about Linux until it does the same things better, and you can buy software for it at the local supermarket. | Jul 08 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Wrong. | Jul 08 11:02 |
| Ng | the success of the desktop is predicated on useful, compelling applications for users | Jul 08 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Ng Lot of instantable in the desktop comes from that Lack of KMS. | Jul 08 11:02 |
| Ng | oiaohm: that's really not very true | Jul 08 11:02 |
| oiaohm | you cannot use a desktop if it cannot stay running. | Jul 08 11:02 |
| Aondo | didnt they rewrite the whole susupend thing too? | Jul 08 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Ng application lockups. | Jul 08 11:02 |
| BobSprite | and yes, they still dont exist on the FOSS platform, regardless of the wish for others, and most FOSS apps worth any note are available on windows anyway. | Jul 08 11:02 |
| oiaohm | You cannot switch away due to lack of KMS. | Jul 08 11:03 |
| oiaohm | Even that the Kernel is still working. | Jul 08 11:03 |
| oiaohm | So lot of recoverable problems are rendered not recoverable by it missing. | Jul 08 11:03 |
| Ng | oiaohm: switch away to what? users don't want to switch to a console, they want X to not crash, which is nothing to do with KMS, it's just regular ordinary bugs | Jul 08 11:03 |
| BobSprite | I know the stability argument, but iamohm you use windows, and you know windows does not crash anymore has not for the past 8 years | Jul 08 11:03 |
| oiaohm | It also would allow providing a graphical taskmanager on another screen NG. | Jul 08 11:03 |
| oiaohm | So yes you could switch to something that could sort out problem NG. | Jul 08 11:04 |
| oiaohm | DRI2 also sorts out video memory management issues. | Jul 08 11:04 |
| Ng | oiaohm: that sounds like development effort that would be better used fixing Xorg bugs :) | Jul 08 11:04 |
| Ng | if you need a task manager to fix X, you're doing something wrong | Jul 08 11:04 |
| oiaohm | DRI2 addressing X11 bugs. | Jul 08 11:04 |
| oiaohm | KMS also means if the kernel panics users knows straight away. | Jul 08 11:05 |
| oiaohm | Not just sitting there with a froozen screen not finding out that the Nvidia module they installed was resonsable for the crash. | Jul 08 11:05 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I'm looking forward to that. | Jul 08 11:05 |
| Ng | this is still all boring architecture, users want shiny applications. I've never seen anyone list the lack of BSOD as a reason they don't use a linux desktop | Jul 08 11:05 |
| balzac | oiaohm: you know what else? I don't want my computer to ever be unresponsive for any reason. | Jul 08 11:05 |
| Aondo | Ng the best features are usually those you dont see, and know about :) | Jul 08 11:06 |
| balzac | Any time an application uses up 100% of either CPU or Memory, I'd like to be informed and given the option to throttle it. | Jul 08 11:06 |
| oiaohm | balzac: real-time tree parts are dealing with the unresponives issues. | Jul 08 11:06 |
| balzac | I *hate* when my computer becomes unresponsive for even half a second. | Jul 08 11:06 |
| BobSprite | you should get yourself a decent OS | Jul 08 11:07 |
| balzac | one-half second of my browser buffer hanging when I'm trying to scroll | Jul 08 11:07 |
| oiaohm | Those half a second issues don't happen very much on 2.6.30 Linux kernels. | Jul 08 11:07 |
| Ng | balzac: if you throttle the browser in that situation it'll be locked for more real-time | Jul 08 11:07 |
| oiaohm | They are basically gone balzac | Jul 08 11:07 |
| oiaohm | Future merge bits will make then disappear for good. | Jul 08 11:07 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I used to flip out when my winmodem (windows) would hang the whole OS for a networking handshake | Jul 08 11:08 |
| oiaohm | What OS BobSprite. Windows is defective in other ways. | Jul 08 11:08 |
| oiaohm | So you mean I should by a Mac? | Jul 08 11:08 |
| balzac | I'd rather the computer maxed out at 90% of either CPU or RAM and went to the page-file after that. Reserve 10% responsiveness for me, please. | Jul 08 11:08 |
| balzac | never leave me mashing keys and cursing. | Jul 08 11:09 |
| oiaohm | realtime tree features balzac | Jul 08 11:09 |
| oiaohm | All the low level tech in Linux will basically work. | Jul 08 11:09 |
| Ng | balzac: if you get into swap you're pretty much always going to lose responsiveness because you're so heavily contended on disk IO | Jul 08 11:09 |
| Ng | buy more RAM, fix memory leak bugs :) | Jul 08 11:10 |
| oiaohm | So allowing focus to move away to making stuff work. | Jul 08 11:10 |
| oiaohm | Like applications. | Jul 08 11:10 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I hope they're deadly serious about it and they remove any offending code or architecture. | Jul 08 11:10 |
| oiaohm | real-time developers hate anything that cause systems to lag. | Jul 08 11:10 |
| oiaohm | And I really do mean hate. | Jul 08 11:11 |
| oiaohm | They will go to any extream so it will not happen. | Jul 08 11:11 |
| balzac | Ng: I don't care if it's my cell-phone, my netbook, or my workstation. I never want the damned thing to freeze after 40 years of micro-processors gaining speed, I think programmers should act like they care. | Jul 08 11:11 |
| balzac | you only live once and I don't want to spend my life waiting and cursing for some idiotic process to finish | Jul 08 11:11 |
| Ng | balzac: then you should probably fire about 90% of the professional programmers in the world | Jul 08 11:11 |
| balzac | it should be a cardinal rule - never consume all the resources or the app should be automatically terminated | Jul 08 11:12 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: windows may not crash but disappearing device drivers because they are not signed due to windows updates happen. | Jul 08 11:12 |
| balzac | Ng: true | Jul 08 11:12 |
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| balzac | windows is especially bad in this regard | Jul 08 11:13 |
| BobSprite | never happens, thats FUD | Jul 08 11:13 |
| balzac | ? | Jul 08 11:13 |
| balzac | oh I read about that somewhere | Jul 08 11:14 |
| oiaohm | Audio drivers particular updates if they are not signed they do disappear BobSprite. | Jul 08 11:14 |
| oiaohm | It was the main reason why I end up on Linux this time. | Jul 08 11:15 |
| BobSprite | you must really use some crap hardware and drivers, but whatever. | Jul 08 11:15 |
| BobSprite | still seems like complaining for the sake of it. | Jul 08 11:15 |
| oiaohm | When I set drivers under Linux they stay put. | Jul 08 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Even worse was that windows will do the windows update install in background so halfway threw a first person shooter game no more sound. | Jul 08 11:16 |
| BobSprite | as ive always found with Windows too, and like y ou ive worked on thousands of them | Jul 08 11:16 |
| balzac | BobSprite: actually, regarding what you said about firing 90% of professional programmers | Jul 08 11:18 |
| balzac | NG, I meant | Jul 08 11:18 |
| balzac | I'd say just have them working for me would be enough | Jul 08 11:18 |
| balzac | It takes an iron-fisted software mogul | Jul 08 11:18 |
| balzac | Which I'll need to become if I want software to be how I want it. | Jul 08 11:19 |
| oiaohm | The old Troll answer BobSprite problems don't happen. I never say that Linux is 100 percent without its problems. | Jul 08 11:19 |
| balzac | I want it like cold clear water in a mountain stream in the Alps or the Andes | Jul 08 11:19 |
| balzac | perfectly crystal clear and always responsive | Jul 08 11:19 |
| balzac | even thinner than water, more like moonshine | Jul 08 11:20 |
| balzac | not to invoke any microsoft branding | Jul 08 11:20 |
| oiaohm | It also windows idiot solution to call perfectly good hardware crap just because windows drivers are wrong. | Jul 08 11:20 |
| oiaohm | Linux users are more likely to accept that there is a driver issue when there is 1. | Jul 08 11:21 |
| oiaohm | One of the worse things MS has done for end users is allowing companies like HP to provide machines with no way to restore the OS in case of hard drive failure due to the reinstall image being on the harddrive. | Jul 08 11:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] DG Competition pushing for a patent system outside of the EU: http://bit.ly/11d3a6 | Jul 08 11:28 | |
| BobSprite | and the old FOSS troll line is that things happen when its clear they dont. | Jul 08 11:31 |
| Aondo | you mean hardisk failure never happen? :) | Jul 08 11:31 |
| BobSprite | no, ofcourse hardware fails, | Jul 08 11:31 |
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| oiaohm | BobSprite: Always a MS line faults don't exist. | Jul 08 11:46 |
| oiaohm | Ok some things are extreamly rare. Problem with rare they do happen. | Jul 08 11:47 |
| oiaohm | Like NTFS due to interuption at right time losing the windows\system32\config directory. Its still fixable if you have an install disk to run chkdsk to repair directory. | Jul 08 11:48 |
| oiaohm | Only one problem machine does not boot either. | Jul 08 11:48 |
| oiaohm | Yes rare but nasty. | Jul 08 11:49 |
| oiaohm | The downside of the registry system in windows is too much writing happens to them in genernal usage putting core bits at risk of being damaged. | Jul 08 11:52 |
| BobSprite | and yet registry issues are non-issues in this day and age. | Jul 08 11:54 |
| oiaohm | There will always be users who avoid the rare events. Its like compiz and opengl applications on Linux. | Jul 08 11:54 |
| oiaohm | I like that line BobSprite | Jul 08 11:54 |
| oiaohm | I have about 5 machines a year taken down by them BobSprite. | Jul 08 11:55 |
| oiaohm | Sorry for the poor user caught by them its not a non-issue. | Jul 08 11:56 |
| BobSprite | well its a non-issue to most of the world, and the general user will spend his/her entire life and will never have to deal with any such issues. | Jul 08 11:56 |
| oiaohm | By that arguement I could say Linux is perfect. | Jul 08 11:57 |
| oiaohm | And call all its issues non-issues. | Jul 08 11:57 |
| oiaohm | Its like the good one users machine slows down on them. They must not have done maintain operations. Linux and OS X get away without performance loss over time due to not doing maintain operations. | Jul 08 12:00 |
| BobSprite | yes, just keep telling yourself that linux is perfect, and that no more needs to be done to it to improve it, and that all you need to do is try to convince all those MS users that even though they are not having problems, they are. | Jul 08 12:01 |
| oiaohm | Or users 32 bit OS not being able to use 8 GB of memory. If users has put memory and it is possiable for OS to access it. The memory should be usable. | Jul 08 12:02 |
| oiaohm | I don't call Linux perfect my self BobSprite | Jul 08 12:02 |
| oiaohm | I accept its not prefect. | Jul 08 12:02 |
| oiaohm | That it has defects to be fixed. | Jul 08 12:02 |
| BobSprite | yes, many | Jul 08 12:03 |
| oiaohm | Windows also has many. | Jul 08 12:03 |
| oiaohm | There is no perfect desktop OS. | Jul 08 12:03 |
| oiaohm | I always think its funny. Most solutions to strange problems under windows is reinstall the OS. With no way to find out what the problem truly was. | Jul 08 12:06 |
| BobSprite | and you call yourself a computer whizz ?? | Jul 08 12:07 |
| BobSprite | sounds like your at the "flipping burger" end of the IT industry. | Jul 08 12:07 |
| BobSprite | re-install the OS, sure that was in 1995, its actually 2009 now. | Jul 08 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Still happens. | Jul 08 12:08 |
| Aondo | there was still war in 1995... and there still is :D | Jul 08 12:08 |
| balzac | RMS has some great ideas for improving the GNU/Linux operating system | Jul 08 12:09 |
| Aondo | is it spesific to the GNU system, and not software in general? | Jul 08 12:09 |
| balzac | BobSprite: what true consumate computer enthusiast would take the time to learn how to troubleshoot windows? | Jul 08 12:10 |
| BobSprite | 1995 and crappy win95 was Linux's best chance to gain market share, as win95 was rubbish and had a terrible memory manager if you have over 512meg RAM. | Jul 08 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Really not. | Jul 08 12:10 |
| balzac | If you're a whizz at windows, you're like a customer who eats at mcdonalds | Jul 08 12:11 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel from 1995 still had fairly crapply process management. | Jul 08 12:11 |
| BobSprite | who would trouble shoot windows, every single half decent Sys Admin can admin windows routinely, and probably many other OS's as well. | Jul 08 12:11 |
| balzac | Like a connisseur of mcdonalds. | Jul 08 12:11 |
| BobSprite | Its not like its brain science | Jul 08 12:11 |
| balzac | I've been to every mcdonalds in the region! I really know my mcdonalds! | Jul 08 12:11 |
| oiaohm | Also Linux did not have hardware maker support back in 1995. | Jul 08 12:12 |
| BobSprite | if you cant fix windows, make it totally secure and stable for free, your in the wrong job. | Jul 08 12:12 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 08 12:12 |
| oiaohm | There is no way to make windows totally secure. | Jul 08 12:12 |
| BobSprite | I did not have any hardware issued using linux in 1995, seems to work fine. | Jul 08 12:12 |
| oiaohm | Without correcting a few core parts. | Jul 08 12:12 |
| balzac | BobSprite: no, it's like groping in the dark because you can't get the source code and you can't change it or re-distribute it, so there are no Windows User's Groups where enthusiasts share the latest code. | Jul 08 12:12 |
| balzac | because you can't share the damned code! | Jul 08 12:12 |
| balzac | and you're trying to pass yourself off in here as a computer whizz? | Jul 08 12:12 |
| balzac | come on! computer science has an academic legacy | Jul 08 12:13 |
| BobSprite | there are vast Windows users groups, and most problems are far easier to find solutions for than Linux or any other OS. | Jul 08 12:13 |
| balzac | consumate computer users require at least an academic software license | Jul 08 12:13 |
| oiaohm | No system admin worth there salt would ever claim any OS can be made totally secure. | Jul 08 12:13 |
| oiaohm | Basically BobSprite just proved past question if he is a system admin he is not a good one. | Jul 08 12:14 |
| BobSprite | I did not say they could, they can make it as secure as it needs to be, and just as secure and anything else. | Jul 08 12:14 |
| BobSprite | And if you cant do that, what good are you ? | Jul 08 12:14 |
| balzac | BobSprite: what is the point of a users group if you can't share the software? | Jul 08 12:14 |
| balzac | what do you do, tell each other about great new products they can buy? | Jul 08 12:14 |
| balzac | MSDN tips? | Jul 08 12:14 |
| balzac | come on! | Jul 08 12:14 |
| oiaohm | if you cant fix windows, make it totally secure and stable for free, your in the wrong job. << BobSprite. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| BobSprite | there is a vast amount of free and open software on teh web for Windows, probably far more than linux. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| oiaohm | That is what you claimed. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| oiaohm | So you want to take that back. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| balzac | BobSprite: I don't think you're really enthusiastic about computers or software. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Altered to made as secure as anything else. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| oiaohm | I am sorry Windows is not. | Jul 08 12:15 |
| balzac | if you cared, you wouldn't be using windows | Jul 08 12:15 |
| BobSprite | no im not a software cultist or zealot, i just use what works, | Jul 08 12:16 |
| balzac | no, you use what fails | Jul 08 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Windows currently does not pass to host all levels of USA mil securitly on 1 system. | Jul 08 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Linux and Solarias does. | Jul 08 12:16 |
| BobSprite | Windows has the same industry OR BETTER security rating as Linux does, | Jul 08 12:16 |
| balzac | the London Stock Exchange had to quit using windows 2003 | Jul 08 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Wrong. | Jul 08 12:16 |
| balzac | it just sucks too bad | Jul 08 12:16 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: | Jul 08 12:16 |
| BobSprite | and thats only some linux distro's not all. | Jul 08 12:17 |
| balzac | BobSprite: it fails. | Jul 08 12:17 |
| balzac | miserably. | Jul 08 12:17 |
| BobSprite | show me where the london stock exchange has quit using windows please. | Jul 08 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Redhat Linux and Solarias have higher ratings than Windows 2008 | Jul 08 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Not crap EAL4 rating that is just quality control. | Jul 08 12:17 |
| balzac | http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_stock_exchange_to_abandon_failed_windows_platform | Jul 08 12:17 |
| BobSprite | EAL4 is windows, and its the same as Fedore9 and a couple others, | Jul 08 12:17 |
| oiaohm | But true secuirty implementation rating | Jul 08 12:17 |
| oiaohm | EAL4 is just the quality control rating. | Jul 08 12:18 |
| oiaohm | Not secuirty rating | Jul 08 12:18 |
| oiaohm | MS is missing mandorary access control systems on services to start off with. | Jul 08 12:18 |
| balzac | Anyone who was ever fool enough to believe that Microsoft software was good enough to be used for a mission-critical operation had their face slapped this September when the LSE (London Stock Exchange)?s Windows-based TradElect system brought the market to a standstill for almost an entire day. | Jul 08 12:19 |
| balzac | dang. | Jul 08 12:19 |
| BobSprite | its what government and industry use, so it is what it is, | Jul 08 12:20 |
| oiaohm | Note Solarias still out rates linux. | Jul 08 12:20 |
| oiaohm | USA goverment use 2 ratings not one BobSprite. | Jul 08 12:20 |
| BobSprite | same applies to linux for mission critical, its by no means up to mission critical. | Jul 08 12:20 |
| oiaohm | One is quality control ie EALs | Jul 08 12:20 |
| balzac | oiaohm: I'd say that's just bureaucratic inertia | Jul 08 12:20 |
| oiaohm | One is security framework. | Jul 08 12:20 |
| balzac | Solaris is not better than GNU/Linux | Jul 08 12:20 |
| balzac | it is worse | Jul 08 12:21 |
| BobSprite | not that its stops industry using MS for mission critical apps, and successfully. | Jul 08 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Containers implementation balzac | Jul 08 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Puts Solarias just ahead in a few key areas. | Jul 08 12:21 |
| balzac | ok, but not for long. | Jul 08 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Cost stops a lot of industries in time using MS. | Jul 08 12:21 |
| balzac | BobSprite: NYSE? Redhat? | Jul 08 12:22 |
| balzac | GNU/Linux + Mars Rover control computers, Large Hadron Collider computers? | Jul 08 12:22 |
| balzac | GNU/Linux rules mission critical. Most super-computers are GNU/Linux. | Jul 08 12:22 |
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| oiaohm | Its small business that has a fixation with Windows. | Jul 08 12:23 |
| BobSprite | actually GNU/Linux is not IN the mars rover at all, do your research | Jul 08 12:23 |
| balzac | If GNU/Linux is not the king of mission critical applications then what is? | Jul 08 12:23 |
| BobSprite | VMS | Jul 08 12:23 |
| balzac | BobSprite: the computers which send the control commands. | Jul 08 12:23 |
| balzac | do your research | Jul 08 12:23 |
| oiaohm | VMS is also not windows. | Jul 08 12:23 |
| oiaohm | VMS is coded better. | Jul 08 12:23 |
| balzac | VMS? | Jul 08 12:24 |
| balzac | wtf is that? | Jul 08 12:24 |
| BobSprite | I know, and a computer that sends commands to another computer does not mean a thing, big deal. | Jul 08 12:24 |
| BobSprite | but saying GNU/Linux is IN the mars rovers is not true. | Jul 08 12:24 |
| BobSprite | to put in nicely | Jul 08 12:25 |
| balzac | BobSprite: the point is, they didn't choose windows, nor any proprietary operating system. | Jul 08 12:25 |
| balzac | BobSprite: I never said that, did I? | Jul 08 12:25 |
| balzac | < balzac> GNU/Linux + Mars Rover control computers | Jul 08 12:25 |
| BobSprite | VMS, and OpenVMS is an operating system, that is years ahead of linux or Windows, and it h as some very powerfully features that are not available on windows or unix. | Jul 08 12:25 |
| balzac | ok, but wtf is VMS? | Jul 08 12:26 |
| balzac | looks like a bunch of hype. AdSight? InSight? PRtrack? | Jul 08 12:26 |
| BobSprite | its stands for "Virtual Memory System". | Jul 08 12:26 |
| balzac | url? | Jul 08 12:27 |
| trmanco | Google OS :-) | Jul 08 12:27 |
| balzac | DEC's proprietary operating system originally produced for its VAX minicomputer. | Jul 08 12:27 |
| BobSprite | thats right | Jul 08 12:28 |
| oiaohm | VxWorks is what the rovers run by the way BobSprite | Jul 08 12:28 |
| oiaohm | Another posix releation | Jul 08 12:28 |
| BobSprite | its the ultimate secure and mission critical OS. | Jul 08 12:28 |
| balzac | Many Unix fans generously concede that VMS would probably be the hacker's favourite commercial OS if Unix didn't exist; though true, this makes VMS fans furious. | Jul 08 12:28 |
| oiaohm | You would not trust MS windows predecssor VMS with a mission critical operation. | Jul 08 12:29 |
| balzac | BobSprite: that title belongs to GNU/Linux | Jul 08 12:29 |
| BobSprite | it would, if VMS was ported to the IA-32 x86 platform it would should Linux out of the water | Jul 08 12:29 |
| oiaohm | Nop | Jul 08 12:29 |
| oiaohm | VMS is crap. | Jul 08 12:29 |
| oiaohm | VxWorks already works on the x86 platform. | Jul 08 12:29 |
| BobSprite | sure, and you cant get windows secure, and clearly you've never used it if you think its crap. | Jul 08 12:29 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: Troll defence. | Jul 08 12:30 |
| oiaohm | Come on. | Jul 08 12:30 |
| trmanco | http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html | Jul 08 12:30 |
| oiaohm | VMS is crap because it tech is not up todate. | Jul 08 12:30 |
| oiaohm | But its code is dependable. | Jul 08 12:30 |
| mitsuhiko | oiaohm: how is VMS not up to date? | Jul 08 12:30 |
| oiaohm | Secuirty frameworks to start off with. | Jul 08 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Realtime support. | Jul 08 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Lack of applications. | Jul 08 12:31 |
| mitsuhiko | whatever a security framework is... | Jul 08 12:31 |
| BobSprite | and what is crap about VMS the fact that its very secure, its facts is has a great scriping language, and versioning file system, able to boot off multiple HD's over network, hub-connection for instant clusters, decade uptimes, .... and so on. | Jul 08 12:31 |
| mitsuhiko | VMS has a very high level of security | Jul 08 12:31 |
| mitsuhiko | and applications don't matter because people that use VMS write custom ones | Jul 08 12:32 |
| balzac | Sounds more like a high level of obscurity | Jul 08 12:32 |
| mitsuhiko | and linux does not do realtime either | Jul 08 12:32 |
| balzac | mitsuhiko: I could have sworn that was one of the requirements for it to be used for the NYSE | Jul 08 12:33 |
| oiaohm | VMS vs VxWorks mitsuhiko | Jul 08 12:33 |
| mitsuhiko | balzac: why would the NYSE use a realtime kernel? | Jul 08 12:33 |
| balzac | Red Hat Makes Real-Time Linux Real | Jul 08 12:33 |
| Ng | mitsuhiko: guaranteed latency seems like it would be useful for realtime trading | Jul 08 12:34 |
| balzac | Linux vendor Red Hat (NYSE:RHT) is out today with its newest Real Time Linux platform, MRG 1.1 boasting new performance, messaging and grid computing (cloud) capabilities. | Jul 08 12:34 |
| mitsuhiko | balzac: windows is not a realtime kernel either, the only realtime kernel microsoft has is windows ce | Jul 08 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux is having to gain real-time support to compete with VxWorks. | Jul 08 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has a RT branch. | Jul 08 12:34 |
| oiaohm | That is a full RT kernel. | Jul 08 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Lack of main line means its support is not perfect yet. | Jul 08 12:35 |
| mitsuhiko | since when is the RT kernel from redhat a real realtime kernel? | Jul 08 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Since the latter generation of patches. | Jul 08 12:35 |
| balzac | http://linux.about.com/b/2008/05/15/nyse-euronext-switches-to-red-hat-linux.htm | Jul 08 12:35 |
| balzac | there's my source | Jul 08 12:35 |
| balzac | argue with Redhat, I don't work for RH | Jul 08 12:36 |
| mitsuhiko | you lose real-time when you run common applications / drivers on top of it | Jul 08 12:36 |
| mitsuhiko | so i suppose that's marketing bullshit behind that linux | Jul 08 12:36 |
| oiaohm | No.. | Jul 08 12:36 |
| BobSprite | VxWorks is an RTOS for embedded applications, VMS is a full blown mainframe, mini-computer distributed cluster high end computing environment. | Jul 08 12:36 |
| oiaohm | Running common applications on a RTOS the common application gets treated secound to real time events. | Jul 08 12:37 |
| BobSprite | its like comparing a rack of blade servers to a cell phone | Jul 08 12:37 |
| oiaohm | The drivers in the Linux kernel are being altered to support real-time. | Jul 08 12:37 |
| balzac | NYSE is the pinnacle and GNU/Linux has claimed it. | Jul 08 12:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] "Google Chrome running within a new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel."" :-D | Jul 08 12:38 | |
| oiaohm | So sorry there will be no such thing as a non realtime supporting driver for linux. | Jul 08 12:38 |
| oiaohm | It is what makes merging the real-time kernel into main line so hard. | Jul 08 12:39 |
| oiaohm | All the non real-time supporting drivers have to be corrected. | Jul 08 12:39 |
| BobSprite | all "real-time" means is that there is a maximum time period between a function or user requrest or interrupt and it being actioned, it could be 100nS or 1 day its still real time. | Jul 08 12:39 |
| oiaohm | http://widefox.pbworks.com/Real-Time | Jul 08 12:40 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: I am talking hard real-time. | Jul 08 12:40 |
| BobSprite | its called deterministic behavior | Jul 08 12:40 |
| BobSprite | so am i | Jul 08 12:40 |
| oiaohm | 100nS is too slow for hard real-time. | Jul 08 12:41 |
| oiaohm | 100nS is about what you expect from soft. | Jul 08 12:41 |
| ugufjhfj | hard real-time are do with asic, fpga, not OS | Jul 08 12:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Google Chrome OS running on top of Linux <- The Day Microsoft Stood Still!! | Jul 08 12:43 | |
| BobSprite | I know, and I also know that I can program real time applications that run under windows, and that interface directly to hardware. | Jul 08 12:43 |
| balzac | sounds like a "real hard time" | Jul 08 12:44 |
| BobSprite | in fact all my major projects were real time, robotic and scientific instruments and they used winodws and PC's. | Jul 08 12:44 |
| oiaohm | ugufjhfj: OS are releated for the OS means to push all processes aside to get it down. | Jul 08 12:44 |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: difference here you don't have to do odd things to get equal under Linux. | Jul 08 12:44 |
| balzac | i'm sorry to hear it. how was it licensed? | Jul 08 12:45 |
| oiaohm | Normal windows solution is a form of sub kernel. | Jul 08 12:45 |
| BobSprite | you dont have to do odd things with windows either | Jul 08 12:45 |
| ugufjhfj | windows is all but real time | Jul 08 12:46 |
| BobSprite | yes it is, | Jul 08 12:46 |
| oiaohm | http://www.windowsfordevices.com/articles/AT2503923807.html << That is what is required to get hard realtime. | Jul 08 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Under windows. | Jul 08 12:46 |
| ugufjhfj | Sleep with 1 ms resolution LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL | Jul 08 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Windows only has native soft realtime. | Jul 08 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Good enough for a lot of tasks. | Jul 08 12:47 |
| BobSprite | by definition windows is software so software has "soft" real time, | Jul 08 12:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] UPLS is the new attempt to get software patents validated in Europe: http://bit.ly/fj8SC | Jul 08 12:48 | |
| oiaohm | The most significant latency is IRQ masking by the Windows XP kernel and drivers, routinely done for periods up to several milliseconds through Windows XP KeRaise/LowerIrql calls. << Still applies to later windows verisons. | Jul 08 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Realtime processes don't have 100 percent preference to everything. | Jul 08 12:49 |
| oiaohm | So they are only soft. | Jul 08 12:49 |
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| oiaohm | Hard they can get first access at everything they need to be on time. | Jul 08 12:50 |
| _Hicham_ | Hi oiaohm | Jul 08 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Very different internal kernel BobSprite. | Jul 08 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Jul 08 12:50 |
| BobSprite | you might say that but people every day use MS windows for real-time and mission critical applications without problem | Jul 08 12:51 |
| _Hicham_ | mission critical applications on Windows ? | Jul 08 12:51 |
| _Hicham_ | BobSprite : u r wrong | Jul 08 12:52 |
| ugufjhfj | haha | Jul 08 12:52 |
| _Hicham_ | even if they use Windows, it is not MS Windows | Jul 08 12:52 |
| _Hicham_ | they use a customised version of Windows | Jul 08 12:52 |
| _Hicham_ | recompiled from source | Jul 08 12:52 |
| BobSprite | yes, it is, and im right ive installed and worked on those systems for years and years | Jul 08 12:52 |
| oiaohm | So do Linux people with standard Linux kernel with its standard soft support BobSprite | Jul 08 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Windows and Linux default kernels cannot replace VxWorks that has Hard. | Jul 08 12:53 |
| BobSprite | They are not re-compiled from source, they are stock standard versions with updates, | Jul 08 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Same | Jul 08 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Standard Linux kernel has a shorter soft realtime responce than the windows kenrel. | Jul 08 12:53 |
| oiaohm | When it comes to real-time MS had good design and they have stuffed it up with locking systems. | Jul 08 12:54 |
| BobSprite | so why is it the big SCADA systems software manufactures have their control software and their PLC programming systems in Windows. | Jul 08 12:54 |
| oiaohm | Look closer. | Jul 08 12:55 |
| BobSprite | You know the SCADA systems that control your life, water, elect, gas, sewer, power, factories and so on, all mission critical all windows. | Jul 08 12:55 |
| ugufjhfj | because of MS lobby | Jul 08 12:55 |
| BobSprite | because it works, | Jul 08 12:55 |
| ugufjhfj | works with virus and malware, yeah! | Jul 08 12:56 |
| oiaohm | SCADA systems exist on VxWorks and Linux. | Jul 08 12:56 |
| oiaohm | Some places choose to run Windows that is there problem. | Jul 08 12:57 |
| BobSprite | no none of that stuff, these are not PC's you use as a desktop or for web browsing, geezzz. | Jul 08 12:57 |
| oiaohm | Also some are using like the linked I provide before. | Jul 08 12:57 |
| BobSprite | you guys have not dwelt much in the big world I see. | Jul 08 12:57 |
| oiaohm | What is basically a kernel override done so SCADA can respond due to windows internal crappy ness. | Jul 08 12:57 |
| oiaohm | Linux when lot of the systems you are talking about most likely did not have the support either. | Jul 08 12:58 |
| BobSprite | these are dual or tripple redundant mirrored systems with separate UPS.s and data backup and restore systems, with a second location fallover | Jul 08 12:58 |
| oiaohm | In the last year Linux ablity grew with real-time support. | Jul 08 12:58 |
| oiaohm | I guess the systems you are talking about are older than that. | Jul 08 12:59 |
| oiaohm | VxWorks control system is more expensive than windows. | Jul 08 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Simple case of budget BobSprite | Jul 08 12:59 |
| ugufjhfj | (and Lobbying) | Jul 08 12:59 |
| BobSprite | well these are real time and very large SCADA systems, mabey for complete cities, they are huge and have many thousands of control PLC's that ofcourse have RTOS and real time applications in them, they are the Control part of SCADA, the Supervisory part is dont in Citect, using Windows OS. | Jul 08 13:00 |
| BobSprite | they arenot the same things the RTOS lives in the PLC's and teh RTU's and the mainframe of PC is the supervisory and have to report data and signal alarms, and realy time would be 1 second for an alarm from teh SCADA network. | Jul 08 13:01 |
| BobSprite | So real time is that is required from teh spec to detect and respond to an event, and events are handled by the outlying control microprocessors, | Jul 08 13:02 |
| oiaohm | Citect can be got for Linux and Solarias as well. | Jul 08 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Is nothing more than admin preference. | Jul 08 13:03 |
| BobSprite | yes, but the version, is not nearly as good, and its still proprietary, but no one uses it, they all use windows, and that is because of the support base for it. | Jul 08 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Citect is depending on the PLC do do the hard real-time. | Jul 08 13:04 |
| BobSprite | and that fact it works and is rock solid stable. | Jul 08 13:05 |
| oiaohm | Windows OS is still not a hard real-time to support that. | Jul 08 13:05 |
| oiaohm | You are not really saying anything that says windows is better for mission critical. | Jul 08 13:05 |
| BobSprite | obviously that does not matter, and I know it does not matter, it works and therefore its used. | Jul 08 13:06 |
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| ugufjhfj | We know that Windows is the Eighth Wonder of the World | Jul 08 13:09 |
| MinceR | and also the first seven :> | Jul 08 13:10 |
| ugufjhfj | of course :) | Jul 08 13:11 |
| oiaohm | These aguements is so normal. BobSprite. I remember when MS people would come here and hold up the londen stock exchange as an example. Defence argments are just as weak. | Jul 08 13:12 |
| BobSprite | windows is just an operating system, it has applications that work with it that I can and do use, and I need to know how to use those applications for my work, but I dont use "windows" I use applications. who cares what the OS is. | Jul 08 13:12 |
| balzac | I care | Jul 08 13:12 |
| balzac | I care what license and the design of the operating system too | Jul 08 13:12 |
| balzac | that's like asking "who cares what you eat?" | Jul 08 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Means to audit complete system is handy at times. | Jul 08 13:13 |
| balzac | I'm not indifferent | Jul 08 13:13 |
| BobSprite | great if your an OS enthusiest or hobbiest fine, fill ya boots. | Jul 08 13:13 |
| balzac | yeah, then there's security | Jul 08 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Windows closed source not as audit able. | Jul 08 13:13 |
| balzac | Hugo Chavez cares what OS controls the oil pumps | Jul 08 13:13 |
| balzac | you cannot accept another administrator if you're serious computer user | Jul 08 13:13 |
| balzac | you must have autonomy and security | Jul 08 13:13 |
| balzac | Using windows would make me sick. I'd have to switch to another profession. | Jul 08 13:14 |
| oiaohm | For something live and death would you not like to have it source code audited for defects and the report in your hands? | Jul 08 13:14 |
| balzac | I have to have control. | Jul 08 13:14 |
| balzac | I go back into construction if windows were my only choice | Jul 08 13:14 |
| oiaohm | So you can avoid known weak points. | Jul 08 13:14 |
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| BobSprite | and that auditing is working so well for you now, whats Ubuntu up to 60,000 bugs and counting, how come they are not found in your full audits ???? | Jul 08 13:15 |
| oiaohm | they are. | Jul 08 13:15 |
| oiaohm | I told you not to use that line again because each time you do you will get your ass kicked. | Jul 08 13:16 |
| oiaohm | So you can avoid known weak points. | Jul 08 13:16 |
| BobSprite | this "many eyes" things is rubbish, clearly its not working and no one is actually looking, who knows what else is hidden in there. | Jul 08 13:16 |
| oiaohm | you have access to the bug list so you don't have to use the effected parts. | Jul 08 13:16 |
| oiaohm | I am not talking about the many eyes things BobSprite. | Jul 08 13:16 |
| BobSprite | of the "KNOWN" bugs, not the missed ones, the back doors, the buffer overflows and so on not detected. | Jul 08 13:17 |
| balzac | BobSprite: no system has found them all. | Jul 08 13:17 |
| balzac | Ultimately, that's what insurance companies are for. | Jul 08 13:17 |
| balzac | security has to be active with intrusion detection, back-tracing, investigation, subpoenas, & prosecutions. | Jul 08 13:18 |
| balzac | and insurance | Jul 08 13:18 |
| balzac | because no security scheme is perfect. | Jul 08 13:18 |
| balzac | and there are always more exploits to be foudn | Jul 08 13:19 |
| oiaohm | I am talking about systems that scan for flaws. http://coverity.com/ | Jul 08 13:19 |
| oiaohm | They find missed ones as well BobSprite | Jul 08 13:19 |
| oiaohm | buffer overflows should be impossiable in correctly audited code. | Jul 08 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Only reason why they can exist is your auditing tool has a defect. | Jul 08 13:20 |
| oiaohm | To do these kinds of scans you require the complete source code BobSprite. | Jul 08 13:21 |
| oiaohm | Other wise defects can be hidding in the closed source sections you cannot audit correctly | Jul 08 13:21 |
| oiaohm | Note auditing tool not having complete source code to scan threw is a defect to the auditing tool. | Jul 08 13:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] FFII France and software patents live from RMLL: http://bit.ly/jPAW1 | Jul 08 13:23 | |
| oiaohm | Basically using a closed source OS in a critical system is tying one hand behind you back BobSprite. | Jul 08 13:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Rene Mages taking about the EPO EBA Referral | Jul 08 13:28 | |
| oiaohm | And hoping you will not need it. | Jul 08 13:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Software patents at RMLL: http://bit.ly/Nlpw9 | Jul 08 13:33 | |
| *_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@41.248.138.36) has left #boycottnovell | Jul 08 13:35 | |
| *trmanco is now known as trmanco_ | Jul 08 13:36 | |
| *trmanco_ is now known as trmanco | Jul 08 13:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Chassez les brevets logiciels par la fenetre, ils reviennent pas les toilettes... | Jul 08 13:38 | |
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| BobSprite | yes people have been using proprietary OS's for most of the existance of computers to mission critical applications, and they still are without a problem at all. | Jul 08 13:42 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Live dump from the RMLL interview of FFII France: http://bit.ly/Mt7SB | Jul 08 13:48 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @brunomiguel: Liked "Google Drops A Nuclear Bomb On Microsoft. And It’s Made of Chrome." http://ff.im/4Xh4b | Jul 08 13:53 | |
| oiaohm | BobSprite: and then write off having buffer overflows as natural sorry it is not without problems. | Jul 08 13:53 |
| oiaohm | And other issues. | Jul 08 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Again clouding over the facts of the issue. Simple fact there have been issues causes by not being able to perform a full audit. | Jul 08 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Items like VxWorks you get source code under NDA as a device developer for the very auditing reason. There is a difference between proprietary and closed source. | Jul 08 13:56 |
| oiaohm | VxWorks is not unqiue either in the embed word of proprietary OS's to hand over the source code of the OS under NDA to people working with it. | Jul 08 14:00 |
| BobSprite | yep, just like MS does too, | Jul 08 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Extra charage with MS. | Jul 08 14:03 |
| oiaohm | So companies not all companies do it. Reason why a lot of MS OS based produces are weaker. | Jul 08 14:03 |
| BobSprite | not when they provide it for free to universities and R&D groups. | Jul 08 14:03 |
| BobSprite | there is always a "BUT" with you, | Jul 08 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly free either. | Jul 08 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Have you read the conditions on that. | Jul 08 14:04 |
| oiaohm | VxWorks you are allowed to correct a error and release as long as VxWorks is informed of the alteration. With MS on the other hand you are not allowed to ship altered form. | Jul 08 14:05 |
| oiaohm | So even that you might detect a defect you are not allowed to fix it. | Jul 08 14:05 |
| oiaohm | It costs more for the right to fix issues. | Jul 08 14:06 |
| BobSprite | If there is a choice to use something that is broken that I can fix or to use something that is proprietary but works, ill pick what works everytime. | Jul 08 14:10 |
| oiaohm | The buts exist because you always end up comparing non matches. | Jul 08 14:10 |
| oiaohm | But what about the case when the proprietary does not work BobSprite | Jul 08 14:10 |
| oiaohm | And you are stuck with it. | Jul 08 14:10 |
| BobSprite | its you who is comparing VxWorks to FOSS and linux which it is neither | Jul 08 14:11 |
| oiaohm | VxWorks and FOSS to a developer is not much difference other than the VxWorks licence cost per device. | Jul 08 14:11 |
| BobSprite | you say A can do something I say so can B, you say "BUT" A does it better/different/Cheaper/freeer/add comment here | Jul 08 14:11 |
| oiaohm | You say so can B when B is not really the same. | Jul 08 14:12 |
| oiaohm | due to other restrictions. | Jul 08 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Its equal comparing. | Jul 08 14:13 |
| BobSprite | sure it is :) | Jul 08 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Why is it me who has to point out the limitations. I guess you have never had to compare the licences of VxWorks and MS productions. | Jul 08 14:14 |
| oiaohm | symbian when it was fully closed had the same licence condition style as VxWorks. | Jul 08 14:15 |
| oiaohm | When its come to embed licencing MS has away been the odd on out. | Jul 08 14:16 |
| BobSprite | nor do i care, nor does about 99.99999999% of the planet | Jul 08 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Part of the reason why they have bugger all market share in it. | Jul 08 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Compared to other solutions. | Jul 08 14:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Já consigo ouvir o CEO da MS a mandar caralhadas de Redmond! | Jul 08 14:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ... e a bater com os cornos na parede também! | Jul 08 14:18 | |
| frenziedgoat | what is the thinking around the Mono / CP ? | Jul 08 14:25 |
| *frenziedgoat is desparate to get the goods on it ... | Jul 08 14:25 | |
| oiaohm | CP is not offically declared yet. | Jul 08 14:25 |
| oiaohm | And would not cover the .net classes mono ships under MIT licence. | Jul 08 14:26 |
| frenziedgoat | it seems to be declared by MS here: | Jul 08 14:26 |
| frenziedgoat | http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx | Jul 08 14:26 |
| frenziedgoat | they list it as covered by the CP. | Jul 08 14:26 |
| frenziedgoat | oiaohm: cool - so why is the CP license sensitive ? | Jul 08 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Ok site updated since I last looked. | Jul 08 14:27 |
| MinceR | iirc it depends on whether the particular item was "standardized" via Ecma or not | Jul 08 14:27 |
| oiaohm | winforms ado .... basically all .net classes are not covered by the CP. | Jul 08 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Only the core is covered. | Jul 08 14:27 |
| BobSprite | "irrevocably" is the key word there | Jul 08 14:28 |
| frenziedgoat | oiaohm: ah, ok - so people should not use winforms ? | Jul 08 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Basically all you have is C# and the core engine to run it. | Jul 08 14:28 |
| MinceR | not only winforms | Jul 08 14:28 |
| oiaohm | No classes frenziedgoat | Jul 08 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Basically paper weight. | Jul 08 14:29 |
| MinceR | for example, ToreadorVampire mentioned ASP.NET as the riskiest part | Jul 08 14:29 |
| MinceR | which isn't covered, iirc | Jul 08 14:29 |
| oiaohm | For cross platform usage. | Jul 08 14:29 |
| frenziedgoat | oiaohm: ok - so it's just the core C# language, the CLI - but that sounds like enough to get Tomboy working (eg.) | Jul 08 14:30 |
| *frenziedgoat wonders if he can use that now. | Jul 08 14:30 | |
| oiaohm | Nop. | Jul 08 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Its not enough to make Tomboy work. | Jul 08 14:30 |
| frenziedgoat | suck - what is missing ? | Jul 08 14:30 |
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| oiaohm | class that does disk io for one. | Jul 08 14:31 |
| BobSprite | yes, ofcourse, you can break patents with any language, thats always been the case. | Jul 08 14:31 |
| MinceR | the difference is in patent licensing. | Jul 08 14:32 |
| MinceR | (and of course the intentions of the patent owners :> ) | Jul 08 14:32 |
| frenziedgoat | so MS have a patent on disk I/O ? | Jul 08 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Don't know. | Jul 08 14:32 |
| frenziedgoat | damn - I hope this IRC channel is not logged ... | Jul 08 14:32 |
| oiaohm | But cp agreement is only covering the bare min core. | Jul 08 14:33 |
| BobSprite | they may have a patent on a specific Disk I/O system | Jul 08 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Java implementation agreement covers all standard classes. | Jul 08 14:33 |
| MinceR | frenziedgoat: why? | Jul 08 14:33 |
| oiaohm | So you could implement the full standard without risk. | Jul 08 14:33 |
| frenziedgoat | oh - I'd love to read that - is there a link to the Java agreement ? | Jul 08 14:33 |
| oiaohm | MS has not done that yet. | Jul 08 14:33 |
| frenziedgoat | oiaohm: so the CP has exclusions for parts of the standard ? | Jul 08 14:34 |
| oiaohm | The standard does not cover the core classes. | Jul 08 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Only the bare core to make it operate. | Jul 08 14:35 |
| BobSprite | thats right it covers teh language, not what has been developed with the language. | Jul 08 14:35 |
| BobSprite | just as you would not expect to be given every program written in C because you are allowed to program in C | Jul 08 14:36 |
| *frenziedgoat can't find this Java implementation agreement | Jul 08 14:36 | |
| frenziedgoat | oiaohm: where is that ? | Jul 08 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Its rather like being give C and not being given clib BobSprite | Jul 08 14:36 |
| BobSprite | .NET framework is far more and a "clib" | Jul 08 14:38 |
| Not true, non free software as you know it was invented in the 80s and it has caused lots of problems. -> BobSprite: yes people have been using proprietary OS's for most of the existance of computers to mission critical applications, and they still are without a problem at all. | Jul 08 14:38 | |
| frenziedgoat | BobSprite: but you can't do disk I/O ! | Jul 08 14:38 |
| frenziedgoat | thanks guys /me must go ... | Jul 08 14:39 |
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| non free software is an anomaly that's coming to an end. | Jul 08 14:39 | |
| BobSprite | proprietary software was here long before free software, and will be here long after its gone as well. | Jul 08 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Wrong BobSprite | Jul 08 14:42 |
| oiaohm | First software was free. | Jul 08 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Turned Proprietary latter. | Jul 08 14:42 |
| BobSprite | what about, it being first or it remaining what it is today ?? | Jul 08 14:42 |
| SCADA systems using Windows is also an anomaly. Most embedded applications use gnu/linux or bsd now and are much better for it. SCADA systems as you know them are buggy, rooted shit. | Jul 08 14:43 | |
| BobSprite | most SCADA do not use Linux actually | Jul 08 14:44 |
| oiaohm | Most early developers had no idea of what Propretary was about. | Jul 08 14:44 |
| oiaohm | Instead shared code freely with each other to make progress. | Jul 08 14:44 |
| oiaohm | It was a latter idea to close the source code up and charge for it. | Jul 08 14:45 |
| SCADA is a specific term. It's kind of like saying Zune rules because you limit the "market" of music players to 30 GB brown models sold in june of 2007. | Jul 08 14:45 | |
| oiaohm | The FOSS movement is really just pushing back to how the computer world started. | Jul 08 14:45 |
| I used to work for an electric company, so I can tell you about the systems in use and what kind of trust operators have in Windows. | Jul 08 14:46 | |
| oiaohm | FOSS will always be around. | Jul 08 14:47 |
| oiaohm | In some form as it always has been. | Jul 08 14:47 |
| M$ use in general happened for a short time. Before it they used a mainframe, Unix variants, relay logic and analog systems. | Jul 08 14:48 | |
| oiaohm | Propretary is the abnormality. There are getting less and less OS's of the Propretary class left because they are becoming less and less trusted. | Jul 08 14:48 |
| BobSprite | SCADA is a specific term for a specific systems is stands for Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition, its generally consists of RTU's and PLC's (remote terminal units, and programmable logic controllers), that report back to a supervisory computer that charts and reports and signals alarms, these days that are Windows systems, running CiTect and windows | Jul 08 14:48 |
| BobSprite | and OS's from the 1960's were proprietary and very very expensive, like os/360 from IBM | Jul 08 14:49 |
| I'm aware of the SCADA marketing term and yes it includes Windows, so you have a truism on your hand. | Jul 08 14:49 | |
| Windows has cost mor. | Jul 08 14:49 | |
| more | Jul 08 14:49 | |
| Windows was supposed to be cheaper, but it was not and it did not get the job done well either. | Jul 08 14:50 | |
| BobSprite | the cost of the OS in the SCADA systems are trivial, compared to all the other expenses and code development. | Jul 08 14:51 |
| The cost of windows is never trivial. Upkeep, poor function and data loss overshadow licensing costs, even at full retail. Free software is always cheaper, which is why free software has taken over the embedded market. | Jul 08 14:52 | |
| The only thing worse than keeping your data expensively is losing it cheaply. | Jul 08 14:53 | |
| BobSprite | just does not happen in the real world, everone has solved those problems years ago, these systems run faultlessly for years and years on end. | Jul 08 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Lier BobSprite | Jul 08 14:54 |
| oiaohm | Real world loves giving things curve balls. | Jul 08 14:54 |
| BobSprite | whatever | Jul 08 14:54 |
| oiaohm | Windows system here was resposnable for screwing up and causing raw sewage to be released. | Jul 08 14:55 |
| BobSprite | im sorry, i was dealing in the real world, not the lala land one, but you're welcome to your opinion | Jul 08 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Not everyone has solved it BobSprite | Jul 08 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Just the small number of people you know. | Jul 08 14:56 |
| BobSprite | well if you cant solve them you're in the wrong job, and the small number I know is a huge number of very large orgainzations, like Sydney water, | Jul 08 14:57 |
| oiaohm | Again stupidity. | Jul 08 14:58 |
| oiaohm | There is no way to solve them all. Ask brisbane. | Jul 08 14:58 |
| Sydney Water is small next to the company I used to work for, but you are entitled to your opinion. | Jul 08 14:58 | |
| BobSprite | WTF?? ask brinbane ? about what ? | Jul 08 14:59 |
| oiaohm | You will not get a good answer about windows and its glitches from Brisbane water BobSprite. | Jul 08 14:59 |
| and Windows problems have been solved by replacement. | Jul 08 14:59 | |
| oiaohm | droped by a switch malfuctioning. | Jul 08 15:00 |
| BobSprite | its funny ive done work for brinbane water, and I know what OS they use for their SCADA system, and can you link me to the so called gliches, | Jul 08 15:00 |
| oiaohm | So switch was acting as a network fuzzer. | Jul 08 15:00 |
| BobSprite | I worked for the company that designed and build and installed and mainted Sydney water, newcastle water, Hobart, Brisbane, maroochy most of the eash coast australia in fact. | Jul 08 15:01 |
| oiaohm | Could have guessed | Jul 08 15:02 |
| oiaohm | Windows is sold as the only OS to do the job by them. | Jul 08 15:03 |
| BobSprite | alot of them systems are windows, some are VMS on Dec Alpha's, and the PLC/RTU are made by "Watertech" now called Serc ( i think that is the spelling). | Jul 08 15:04 |
| BobSprite | we did alot of conversions from VMS to Windows and CiTect with little or no user problems. | Jul 08 15:05 |
| oiaohm | And alpha chips have not been in produciton. | Jul 08 15:06 |
| oiaohm | So of course you have to do migrations. | Jul 08 15:06 |
| BobSprite | VMS is also available on the blade server and Itanium cpu's. | Jul 08 15:06 |
| BobSprite | and if someone ports it to the IA-32 and IA-64 platforms its goign to give Windows and Linux/Unix a real run for its money. | Jul 08 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Windows yes. Linux not so much. | Jul 08 15:08 |
| BobSprite | no VMS has some abilities and features that are not possible in Linux without a complete re-write, and VMS's clustering and file system and boot system is way better. | Jul 08 15:09 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly true BobSprite. | Jul 08 15:10 |
| BobSprite | what is not ? | Jul 08 15:10 |
| oiaohm | The mirror is true as well Linux has some features VMS does not either. | Jul 08 15:10 |
| BobSprite | like what ? | Jul 08 15:10 |
| zoobab01 | VMS is used for citical systems | Jul 08 15:11 |
| zoobab01 | like airplane controlling systems | Jul 08 15:11 |
| BobSprite | I know if it get's ported to x86 I would be putting it on my system, and helping port all C apps to it. | Jul 08 15:11 |
| zoobab01 | but people to support it are expensive | Jul 08 15:12 |
| BobSprite | VMS is used for clusters, and comes from the mainframes days, its has very very good backup and fallover protections, | Jul 08 15:12 |
| BobSprite | its rock solid and can be live upgraded right down to motherboard firmware, without requiring a system restart. | Jul 08 15:13 |
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| BobSprite | I have never ever ever seen of or heard of a VMS system crashing. | Jul 08 15:14 |
| oiaohm | Linux has also been used in clusters. Live upgrade of Linux is closing up on VMS. Its the reason why its no so much. | Jul 08 15:14 |
| M$ is not healthy, they teeter on failure worse than 1998 when they also lost billions of dollars a year. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707 | Jul 08 15:15 | |
| oiaohm | Lot of performance alterations have been done on Linux getting it ahead in processing in places over VMS. | Jul 08 15:15 |
| BobSprite | but you cannot cluster Linux just by connecting them together with a hub | Jul 08 15:15 |
| M$ has lost more than $40 billion dollars in cash alone in the last 4 years. | Jul 08 15:15 | |
| You can cluster gnu/linux with a hub, it's called open mosix | Jul 08 15:16 | |
| oiaohm | Depends on the configuation of the Linux you are talking about. | Jul 08 15:16 |
| BobSprite | yes normal vanilla Linux its a no go. | Jul 08 15:16 |
| the work has been done, you can get node software on CDrom or even a single floppy. | Jul 08 15:16 | |
| BobSprite | vms you just connect them together and your done | Jul 08 15:16 |
| balzac | yeah, well the GNU license makes GNU/Linux special | Jul 08 15:17 |
| making a cluster is now as easy as booting a live CD. | Jul 08 15:17 | |
| oiaohm | Direct connection between motherboard works up to about 4096 processes with Linux. | Jul 08 15:17 |
| oiaohm | And that is not a special BobSprite. | Jul 08 15:17 |
| balzac | the technical features from any other OS can be acquired | Jul 08 15:17 |
| free software is like that | Jul 08 15:17 | |
| oiaohm | Linux and VMS have gone two different paths. | Jul 08 15:17 |
| the important part of feature acquisition is that it can all be shared | Jul 08 15:17 | |
| oiaohm | So two different markets no real theat to each other unless the other get the other ones tech. | Jul 08 15:18 |
| balzac | BobSprite: why don't you care about sharing? Why do you wish to be subject to another administrator? | Jul 08 15:18 |
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| oiaohm | The mosix method stopped being majorly developed and SSI for hub connect took over. | Jul 08 15:19 |
| BobSprite | I care about quality and function, I dont see software as any different than RAM or a CPU, its a complex item and if I want to pay money for a product because it provides the function I need, and that im willing to pay for, I see that as my freedom to do so. | Jul 08 15:19 |
| BobSprite | I see people wanting to destroy Proprietary or non-free whatever as an attempt to reduce and restrict my freedom, that I take offense to | Jul 08 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Then load blancing took over from openssi. | Jul 08 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Any ideas why. | Jul 08 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Board to board connect and ssi had about equal stablity when things went strangly wrong. | Jul 08 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Board to board connect is faster than any network cable. | Jul 08 15:22 |
| BobSprite | its certainly one very strong feature of VMS but its not the only one, its file system, its quota systen, the Virtual Memory system, the list is long and good. | Jul 08 15:23 |
| oiaohm | quota system linux has equal. | Jul 08 15:23 |
| BobSprite | Awesome scripting language | Jul 08 15:23 |
| oiaohm | I will give the scripting language. | Jul 08 15:24 |
| BobSprite | far richer command line language then Unix/Linux | Jul 08 15:25 |
| oiaohm | I would not say richer. | Jul 08 15:25 |
| oiaohm | I would say cleaner. | Jul 08 15:25 |
| BobSprite | all the sys$ commands and so on, are great, and the Rdb and SQL as well | Jul 08 15:25 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of command line languages for Unix/Linux and there are some able to equal to the VMS. | Jul 08 15:26 |
| BobSprite | there are thousands of commands I would call that rich | Jul 08 15:26 |
| oiaohm | But syntax is not what you call as clean. | Jul 08 15:26 |
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| BobSprite | DCL/DCS is very clean, and there is always good old C | Jul 08 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Ie there are a lot of rich lanaguges. | Jul 08 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Very few clean languages. | Jul 08 15:27 |
| BobSprite | this is very clean, | Jul 08 15:27 |
| BobSprite | check em out, but yes, im sure most things you can also do with BASH or now days powershell too. | Jul 08 15:27 |
| oiaohm | bash yes due to having all the other support bits on offer in the posix world. | Jul 08 15:28 |
| BobSprite | Linux does not have the versioning and spanning file system that VMS has and the virtual memory bit either | Jul 08 15:28 |
| oiaohm | powershell not so much. | Jul 08 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly true on that either BobSprite | Jul 08 15:28 |
| oiaohm | A full versioning filesystem went into the most recent kernel. | Jul 08 15:29 |
| BobSprite | exp4 ? | Jul 08 15:29 |
| oiaohm | btrfs will follow close the gap. | Jul 08 15:29 |
| BobSprite | or rieserFS ? | Jul 08 15:29 |
| oiaohm | nilfs | Jul 08 15:29 |
| oiaohm | Opps. | Jul 08 15:30 |
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| BobSprite | ok np | Jul 08 15:30 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nilfs | Jul 08 15:30 |
| oiaohm | The gap between what VMS and Linux can do is no large. | Jul 08 15:31 |
| oiaohm | The gap between what windows and VMS can do is huge. | Jul 08 15:31 |
| BobSprite | all the same, ive used and use Linux alot, I use windows alot, and ive used VMS alot, and if VMS hits the x86 world it will gain popularity and give good competition to Linux, and windows. | Jul 08 15:31 |
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| oiaohm | Linux will hold out in areas. | Jul 08 15:32 |
| oiaohm | due to its unique features in handling huge systems. | Jul 08 15:32 |
| BobSprite | not unique | Jul 08 15:32 |
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| oiaohm | cgroups based of the solarias zone designs also closes gap on clustering. | Jul 08 15:33 |
| oiaohm | Lot has been done to Linux to make it handle huge systems well. | Jul 08 15:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux is basically taken the best designs from across the Unix world. | Jul 08 15:34 |
| BobSprite | I know it has, but its not unique in that ability, and its true yes, most OS's are working towards better use with clustering and SMP and AsMP systems. | Jul 08 15:35 |
| BobSprite | Its just its been a stock standard feature on VMS for the past 20 years | Jul 08 15:35 |
| oiaohm | Linux higher returns on large systems are coming form alterations for real-time. | Jul 08 15:35 |
| oiaohm | Yes a really strange place to find speed boots for a large server. | Jul 08 15:36 |
| BobSprite | in other words faster code makes more calculations !! sure | Jul 08 15:36 |
| oiaohm | Its not exactly faster code. | Jul 08 15:36 |
| oiaohm | Its process allocation methods required so real-time can work. | Jul 08 15:37 |
| oiaohm | better allocation higher percent of cpu's used better overall performance. | Jul 08 15:37 |
| oiaohm | Most key thing is to get rid of as many locks as able. | Jul 08 15:37 |
| oiaohm | Allocation system for systems over 1024 cores gets majorally fun. | Jul 08 15:39 |
| oiaohm | Issue is the idea that server and real-time designs are not linked turns out to be wrong. | Jul 08 15:42 |
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| Omar87 | Hi there. | Jul 08 15:52 |
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| neighborlee | http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/08/technology/google_chrome/ | Jul 08 16:12 |
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| Muttley | is this where I can get help on moving from Rhythmbox to Banshee? | Jul 08 16:49 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jul 08 16:55 |
| Muttley | great. because I love f-spot and wanted to give banshee a go ;) | Jul 08 16:57 |
| neighborlee | fine you should have no trouble doing so | Jul 08 16:57 |
| neighborlee | just be aware of the risks | Jul 08 16:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Amicus Briefs to the US Supreme Court in Bilski should be filed before the 6th of August or 2nd of October? | Jul 08 16:58 | |
| Muttley | neighborlee: the risks? | Jul 08 16:58 |
| neighborlee | Muttley, yes the risks..we should always be aware of what we use as it impacts the environment around us ;) | Jul 08 16:59 |
| Muttley | I'll try not to play my music too loud | Jul 08 17:00 |
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| fgfgfgf | hey | Jul 08 17:01 |
| Muttley | hey hey | Jul 08 17:01 |
| Muttley | Ng: don't you work for novell? | Jul 08 17:02 |
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| Animeking2 | So, a thought occured to me, besides the fact that a company like microsoft shouldn;t have control of so many computers, should any company for that matter. Should we allow our standards, and other important programs become standardized, and controlled by a single organization, or company? Not sure if I wrote that right... :/ | Jul 08 17:10 |
| *Animeking2 is now known as Animeking | Jul 08 17:11 | |
| Ng | Muttley: no :) | Jul 08 17:12 |
| Animeking | or worded that right for that matter | Jul 08 17:13 |
| Muttley | ng: fair enough, must be another ng ;) | Jul 08 17:13 |
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| fgfgfgf | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkcl7pVMOMs&feature=related | Jul 08 17:29 |
| neighborlee | Animeking, no you did fine | Jul 08 17:31 |
| neighborlee | Animeking, and no we shouldn't..unless we have full confidence IN said company | Jul 08 17:31 |
| neighborlee | Animeking, and that is part of the concern of mono | Jul 08 17:31 |
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| Omar87 | I can't seem to buy that Canonical will be replacing Rhythmbox with Banshee over nothing. | Jul 08 17:54 |
| Omar87 | There has to be more into it than just replacing one media player with another. | Jul 08 17:55 |
| Omar87 | Unless Banshee has been proven to be much more better than Rhythmbox (which is not), I don't see how this makes sense. | Jul 08 17:56 |
| Omar87 | And why Banshee, why not Audacious or Exaile? | Jul 08 17:57 |
| Omar87 | I don't know if this is just paranoia, but I'm starting to smell something bad going on under the table.. | Jul 08 17:58 |
| Ng | Omar87: it's led entirely by users/developers liking banshee and wanting it to be the default player | Jul 08 18:06 |
| Omar87 | Ng: Still, that doesn't seem enough for an excuse to completely remove Rhythmbox. | Jul 08 18:07 |
| Ng | Omar87: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream/Banshee - see the Rationale section | Jul 08 18:07 |
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| Omar87 | Ng: Unless most of those Mono fanboi's are driven by M$ to include some sort of a trojan horse. (Remember what Bill Gates said about making people get sort of addicted?) | Jul 08 18:08 |
| Ng | Omar87: it's nothing to do with Microsoft :) | Jul 08 18:09 |
| Omar87 | Ng: Mono is an "open" implementation of a patented M$ technology, | Jul 08 18:09 |
| Ng | Omar87: I'm well aware of that, I mean the motivation to replace rhythmbox with banshee has nothing to do with Microsoft trojan horses, or Mono fanboys | Jul 08 18:10 |
| Omar87 | Ng: M$ can still sue or collect money anytime they want. Because, in the end, it's their technology, and their patent. | Jul 08 18:10 |
| Ng | Omar87: (except where the Microsoft Community Promise applies) | Jul 08 18:12 |
| Omar87 | Ng: What promise? | Jul 08 18:13 |
| Ng | Omar87: it's been all over the web for the last few days | Jul 08 18:13 |
| Ng | Omar87: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jul-06.html | Jul 08 18:13 |
| Omar87 | Ng: Well then, that's another story.. | Jul 08 18:17 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, are you back? | Jul 08 18:43 |
| trmanco | oh, he will be back tomorrow | Jul 08 18:44 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] rt @CDemerjian Google can write Chrome OS on toilet paper with crayons, and it will still win because it is not MS. Industry reps matter. | Jul 08 18:53 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dogs In Space official DVD at last! http://is.gd/1rjkb Unofficial extended soundtrack http://is.gd/1rjov | Jul 08 19:08 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Peer to Patent project aims to create stronger software patents for Microsoft IBM and al: http://bit.ly/lgItW | Jul 08 19:08 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] ACT (Microsoft puppet) don't like unlicensed free and open standards: http://bit.ly/9eVTd | Jul 08 19:13 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Patent attorneys continue to spread the myth that the software industry needs software patents: http://bit.ly/1trjz | Jul 08 19:18 | |
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| Bill Gates, 1994 -> " If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excluding | Jul 08 20:04 | |
| Many, many more informed quotes are found here, http://eupat.ffii.org/archiv/zitate/ | Jul 08 20:05 | |
| It's pretty obvious by now that all the software innovation is happening in the free software world, where patents are scrupulously avoided and often cause great harm. | Jul 08 20:06 | |
| Business method patents are unAmerican. | Jul 08 20:06 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dogs In Space DVD for the UK readers http://bit.ly/SOhC1 outrageous price tho | Jul 08 20:08 | |
| Animeking | hmm | Jul 08 20:09 |
| Animeking | did neighbourlee or neighborlee leave? | Jul 08 20:09 |
| Aondo | short answer, yes | Jul 08 20:09 |
| Animeking | :| | Jul 08 20:10 |
| RMS said it best, Animeking, software should not have owners. When software has owners, your computer has owners besides yourself. Software owners always extort control from users they should not have, regardless of size. They ask you to trade your software freedoms for false convenience. | Jul 08 20:10 | |
| If you don't have software freedom, you don't really own your computer and you can't really make it server your purposes. | Jul 08 20:11 | |
| Animeking | That is an interesting idea, but I would disagree if its a video game...since to me games are a form of art as well as software | Jul 08 20:12 |
| Animeking | :/ or would stallman disagree with this too | Jul 08 20:13 |
| Stallman has great appreciation for art. | Jul 08 20:13 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @Pegetables - mentioning a movie does not mean I want to kill dogs from malnutrition with your spammy dog food | Jul 08 20:13 | |
| MinceR | i consider video games to consist of two parts: the code and the content | Jul 08 20:13 |
| Aritist do not have to share their work any more than coders do. | Jul 08 20:13 | |
| MinceR | s/code/engine/ | Jul 08 20:13 |
| Yet a well rounded free software collection contains a lot of art for games. | Jul 08 20:14 | |
| People enjoy sharing freely. | Jul 08 20:14 | |
| Don't you? | Jul 08 20:14 | |
| Even in the non free gaming world, a game's success is helped by the ability of fans to contribute art and mazes. | Jul 08 20:15 | |
| People should have the ability to share images as well as songs, movies and other culture. I do not understand people who do not want to share and who would make it against the law for me to share with my friends. | Jul 08 20:16 | |
| BobSprite | its when you try to share something you dont own thats the problem | Jul 08 20:17 |
| It is easy for all of us to agree that people should be free to share free software and free art. | Jul 08 20:17 | |
| BobSprite | and generally speaking people dont like to share, thats why they have bank accounts, doors, locks and so on. | Jul 08 20:18 |
| In a world where that happens, there might not be a market for those who wish to restrict others. | Jul 08 20:18 | |
| Just as there is no market for Britanica and Encarta in a world where people have cooperated to make Wikipedia. | Jul 08 20:19 | |
| BobSprite | in the real world you live by restrictions, and laws and rules, like it or not just because you want something does not give you the right to take it. | Jul 08 20:19 |
| Yet there are some who still think sharing should be limited and who would harm Wikipedia. | Jul 08 20:19 | |
| They are criminals. | Jul 08 20:19 | |
| BobSprite | and if FOSS was so carefull about patents, why do they keep getting tripped up with others patents in it ? | Jul 08 20:20 |
| They stand between you and the world's greatest library. | Jul 08 20:20 | |
| If we were all allowed to share whatever we wanted, some commercial music and movies would go away but we would all have access to the most complete library of culture ever created. | Jul 08 20:22 | |
| The difference between Wikipedia and Encarta is instructive. Without copyright, free digital libraries would be richer than today's restricted libraries than Wikipedia is richer than Britanica. | Jul 08 20:22 | |
| Don't worry, Universities and others would be free to organize authoritative collections. | Jul 08 20:23 | |
| bbl | Jul 08 20:23 | |
| :) | Jul 08 20:23 | |
| BobSprite | if the pinicle of FOSS is the creation of an OS that is the clone of a 40 year old OS and after 17 years hard work managed 1% ish of the market share. If freedom achieved that, and proprietary give us what we want and are willing to pay for ill stick with what works for me, and 90% of the rest of the planet, but good luck with it all the same. | Jul 08 20:23 |
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| zoobab01 | Bob: FOOS is not only about a free OS | Jul 08 20:25 |
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| thenixedreport | I figure it's already been asked, but are there any comments about the recent news of Microsoft in regards to Mono. | Jul 08 20:28 |
| MinceR | ooh, the m$ cultist got the final word | Jul 08 20:44 |
| MinceR | pathetic | Jul 08 20:44 |
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| Aondo | unless everyone else is dead, the final word will not be said :) | Jul 08 20:50 |
| ThistleWeb | I dunno, just because you're alive doens not mean you have to speak, or are able to, even if you do have something to say.....and if you're the only one left, who do you have to speak to? The point of speaking is to communicate after all | Jul 08 20:51 |
| Aondo | i'm glad i'm alive and not the only one left | Jul 08 20:56 |
| ThistleWeb | I suppose it'd feel the same if a handful of peeps were left, but spread out too far, that they all feel like the last peeps left; which would work great as a trigger to cash in all those "hey, remember you promised to let me screw you if we were the last people on the planet?" IOU's | Jul 08 20:58 |
| Aondo | :P | Jul 08 20:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @linuxfoundation: Linux is clear winner in Google's OS news. Jim Zemlin's blog: http://bit.ly/U7gw4 | Jul 08 21:03 | |
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| Animeking | ... | Jul 08 21:45 |
| desu | D: | Jul 08 21:47 |
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| Omar87 | By the way guys, regarding the "M$ Community Promise" thing, I don't know but I still can't seem to trust it. | Jul 08 22:34 |
| blankthemuffin | then you're an idiot | Jul 08 22:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Differently-competent PM pleads against assisted career suicide http://is.gd/1rtT4 | Jul 08 22:38 | |
| blankthemuffin | go ask a lawyer to look at it or something | Jul 08 22:38 |
| Omar87 | blankthemuffin: I'm not saying it's bogus. But I'm still feeling there might be more into it than just letting people use their patented technology for free all of a sudden. | Jul 08 22:40 |
| trmanco | tomboy is safe | Jul 08 22:40 |
| trmanco | buut I guess f-spot and banshee aren't | Jul 08 22:40 |
| trmanco | they use ado.net for database stuff | Jul 08 22:40 |
| Omar87 | trmanco: Why would it be safe? | Jul 08 22:41 |
| trmanco | that isn't part of the standard | Jul 08 22:41 |
| trmanco | Omar87, well, "safe" in term of microsoft community promise | Jul 08 22:41 |
| trmanco | terms* | Jul 08 22:41 |
| Omar87 | hmm | Jul 08 22:41 |
| trmanco | the only use what is covered by that | Jul 08 22:41 |
| trmanco | unless I'm missing something here? | Jul 08 22:42 |
| Omar87 | But then if people started using Mono and Linux what would happen to Visual Studio and Windows? Did Ballmer really loose his lust for fortune to the extent that he's jeopardizing two of the companies biggest projects? | Jul 08 22:43 |
| Omar87 | company's* | Jul 08 22:45 |
| trmanco | windows developers will still use it | Jul 08 22:45 |
| Omar87 | Yeah, but what about other people? | Jul 08 22:45 |
| trmanco | not everything is written in c# on windows | Jul 08 22:45 |
| trmanco | which ones? | Jul 08 22:45 |
| ThistleWeb | windows devs rely on the downtime for virus scans to use as paid coffee breaks | Jul 08 22:46 |
| trmanco | the ones who wan't cross platform? | Jul 08 22:46 |
| Omar87 | I'm talking in general. | Jul 08 22:46 |
| Omar87 | I know lot's of Linux fans who are also C# professionals. | Jul 08 22:46 |
| trmanco | ThistleWeb, I coffee break takes no more then 15 minutes, but a scan would take more than an hour, so I would guess they would better go out for lunch or something :-P | Jul 08 22:46 |
| trmanco | mono develop will do :-P | Jul 08 22:47 |
| ThistleWeb | it's a great excuse to extended the break though | Jul 08 22:47 |
| ThistleWeb | same with slow boot ups and shut downs | Jul 08 22:47 |
| trmanco | it's sort of a visual studio from the images I've seen | Jul 08 22:47 |
| ThistleWeb | plenty of time to get your coffee in the morning, and switch off 5mins before you clock off | Jul 08 22:47 |
| trmanco | :-) | Jul 08 22:48 |
| blankthemuffin | You have to realise that no matter what balmer / ms does, windows is not going away for the foreseeable future. | Jul 08 22:48 |
| ThistleWeb | it also explains the obsession windows has with wanting to reboot at every fuckin' turn | Jul 08 22:48 |
| ThistleWeb | it's only a professional OS if it can soak up the paid time of your employees while they cant get on with their work and be productive for you | Jul 08 22:49 |
| blankthemuffin | yeah md takes a fair bit from visual studio, it's not quite as good as vs, but it's getting there. | Jul 08 22:49 |
| trmanco | nobody said that | Jul 08 22:49 |
| ThistleWeb | that carrot is held out for the next edition, with another new round of licences | Jul 08 22:49 |
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| ThistleWeb | if you can whip out a "well, I got infected so I'm protecting the network by doing a scan" as an excuse when caught with your feet up; now THAT's a professional OS, specially when you can do it several times per day with no questions asked | Jul 08 22:52 |
| trmanco | haha | Jul 08 22:54 |
| ThistleWeb | anything that works too well, that it evaporates the skivers excuses won't be popular in the workplace | Jul 08 22:54 |
| trmanco | then the company will sometime realize "it's time to go move Linux" and then no more breaks for anybody | Jul 08 22:54 |
| ThistleWeb | specially if they have to learn new stuff | Jul 08 22:54 |
| ThistleWeb | not to mention all the poor parasites who sell you on security software which never really works properly, or sell you on repairs that last a few days | Jul 08 22:56 |
| ThistleWeb | oh the humanity, the job loses | Jul 08 22:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Orange UK exiles Firefox from call centers: http://is.gd/1rva5 Orange UK #fail | Jul 08 22:58 | |
| ThistleWeb | not using FF aint a big deal, the key is what they're using instead | Jul 08 22:58 |
| ThistleWeb | oh dear, IE6 | Jul 08 22:59 |
| ThistleWeb | you'd think the box companies have built themselves into with IE6 would be a lesson, when they do get round to (or can afford to) update their software to be able to move away from IE6, DON'T under any circumstances build for any one vendor's browser, otherwise you're just building a new box to replace the old one and will face the same headaches and expense again | Jul 08 23:02 |
| ThistleWeb | maybe the IE6 stuff will help solidify the idea of an open standard in some corporate minds, regardless of the Microsoft bullies attemtps to strongarm them | Jul 08 23:03 |
| trmanco | install, reboot and pray the it will boot :-P | Jul 08 23:05 |
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| ThistleWeb | I don't doubt that any IT dept would be happy with the IE6 box they live in. Even if they're loyal MS sheep, they will see the advantage of IE7 or 8 with features and security | Jul 08 23:14 |
| ThistleWeb | anyone in an IT dept who sees no issue with being locked to IE6 should NOT be working there, they are a liability | Jul 08 23:14 |
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| goblin | hi all | Jul 08 23:21 |
| trmanco | hello | Jul 08 23:29 |
| goblin | hows it going? | Jul 08 23:30 |
| trmanco | good for now | Jul 08 23:31 |
| goblin | buzz at the moment in the mainstream press seems to be the google OS. | Jul 08 23:32 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jul 08 23:32 |
| goblin | its like they have never known any other OS to exist other than Windows.....that shows how good MS PR is.... | Jul 08 23:33 |
| trmanco | good thing it's linux based | Jul 08 23:33 |
| trmanco | true | Jul 08 23:33 |
| goblin | are you UK? | Jul 08 23:33 |
| trmanco | no | Jul 08 23:33 |
| goblin | ah.... | Jul 08 23:33 |
| trmanco | but I'm in the same timezone area | Jul 08 23:33 |
| trmanco | ;) | Jul 08 23:33 |
| goblin | the bbc has a show called Click... | Jul 08 23:33 |
| goblin | its just as bad with its IT news | Jul 08 23:34 |
| trmanco | ;) | Jul 08 23:34 |
| goblin | heres a thought for you...... | Jul 08 23:35 |
| goblin | is the EU anti trust campaign pointless? | Jul 08 23:35 |
| trmanco | we here have also a news like program, where "a geek journalist" or at least he forces people to know him like that, promote windows and it's apps in television | Jul 08 23:35 |
| goblin | Opera didnt really have an argument to put forward IMO... | Jul 08 23:36 |
| trmanco | same with a magazine, after various reader of it already begged to put some linux stuff on it, they refuse to listen | Jul 08 23:36 |
| trmanco | which one? the browser anti trust? | Jul 08 23:36 |
| goblin | since I think the more new browsers we get (i.e Chrome) it simply eats away at Firefox's share... | Jul 08 23:36 |
| goblin | since those are the ones that want to move from IE in the first place... | Jul 08 23:37 |
| trmanco | it's only really taking awai IE's share for now | Jul 08 23:37 |
| trmanco | y* | Jul 08 23:37 |
| goblin | I think many users stay with IE because they simply don't care or have no interest in their PC. Its a tool for them... | Jul 08 23:37 |
| trmanco | true | Jul 08 23:37 |
| ThistleWeb | when you think about it, the BBCm being funded as a PSB should be an outlet for stuff that dont have a commercial case, Microsoft and Apple CAN buy other news outlets and sponsoring, FOSS really cant | Jul 08 23:38 |
| goblin | very true... | Jul 08 23:38 |
| trmanco | a bunch of people don't really know how to install a app or are scared of installing 3rd party programs on their windows box | Jul 08 23:38 |
| ThistleWeb | not as a promoter, but as an outlet to let peeps know | Jul 08 23:38 |
| ThistleWeb | the whole point of PSB legitimacy is that it shows stuff that's important but wouldn't get a commercial chance | Jul 08 23:39 |
| goblin | Let us not forget that Click bought a botnet in order to make a tv show at the expense of exploited users. | Jul 08 23:39 |
| trmanco | wow | Jul 08 23:39 |
| trmanco | you can actually buy those things | Jul 08 23:39 |
| trmanco | :| | Jul 08 23:39 |
| goblin | yeah, apparently all in the name of a good cause.... | Jul 08 23:39 |
| trmanco | yeah, sure it was | Jul 08 23:39 |
| goblin | If I had tried that and pulled that stunt I would have been arrested... | Jul 08 23:40 |
| ThistleWeb | so you use someone elses creidt card | Jul 08 23:40 |
| ThistleWeb | like Mr T Blair | Jul 08 23:40 |
| ThistleWeb | lmao | Jul 08 23:40 |
| goblin | I did challenge them directly and point out the sections of the computer misuse act that they were in breach of. I never got a reply. | Jul 08 23:40 |
| trmanco | you probably never will | Jul 08 23:41 |
| ThistleWeb | the BBC have long been a law unto themselves, the only peeps they need appease are the MP's every 10 years to renew the tough. A government of the people for the people is in full effect, the people in question are never gonna be you though | Jul 08 23:41 |
| ThistleWeb | as long as you can shmoose your posh mates at the right time, it's all fine | Jul 08 23:42 |
| goblin | Since Ive had some emails from users allegedly being threatened by Phorm lawyers, I will be targetting them next, feature on my blog shortly with hopefully a lot of good examples of them trying to frighten me.... | Jul 08 23:42 |
| ThistleWeb | the unwashed taxed masses are never happy | Jul 08 23:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] At this point WikiHow needs to put up How To Jump A Shark. http://bit.ly/ijAZx | Jul 08 23:43 | |
| trmanco | gn | Jul 08 23:50 |
| goblin | gn | Jul 08 23:50 |
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