IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 13th, 2009

schestowitz"Microsoft blames weak TCP/IP stack"Aug 13 00:00
schestowitzNow, these would at least show humilityAug 13 00:00
schestowitzBut Microsoft is never to blameAug 13 00:00
schestowitzIt's perfectAug 13 00:00
schestowitzVista ... it was perfectAug 13 00:00
schestowitzYour computer just sucksAug 13 00:00
oiaohmIts the major difference between the open source world and MS.Aug 13 00:00
schestowitzLike in that Pirillo videoAug 13 00:00
schestowitzVista is great, it's your faultAug 13 00:00
oiaohmMost of the open source world admits to bugs.Aug 13 00:00
schestowitzoiaohm: that's not in the interests of shareholdersAug 13 00:01
_goblin"Microsoft blames Lynx for Ballmers perspiration problem"Aug 13 00:01
schestowitzMicrosoft blames a lot of internal staffAug 13 00:01
schestowitzIf there's a blunderAug 13 00:01
schestowitzLi,me Halloween Document or letter from dead peopleAug 13 00:01
schestowitzit's always some out-of-c0ntrol mischivious crazy personAug 13 00:02
schestowitzThe MS TE docs tooAug 13 00:02
schestowitzThey pretended that Effective Evangelism  was from some lone woldAug 13 00:02
oiaohmschestowitz: Redhat does quite well admiting to bugs for its shareholders.Aug 13 00:02
schestowitz*wolfAug 13 00:02
schestowitzNot soAug 13 00:02
schestowitzJame P denied itAug 13 00:02
schestowitzAnd his buddy Goldberg tooAug 13 00:02
schestowitzThey said gates loved itAug 13 00:02
schestowitzAnd they also commissioned that "Evangelism is war" gigAug 13 00:02
oiaohmThe thing MS misses by not admitting to bugs people cannot work around bugs effectively.Aug 13 00:03
schestowitzLook also at that document we know as HalloweenAug 13 00:03
schestowitzMicrosoft pretended it was just a bunch of thought from an engineerAug 13 00:03
schestowitzBut Gates had that stuff given to all the boardAug 13 00:03
schestowitzThey are all liarAug 13 00:03
schestowitzDishonest liars who pretend to have nothing to do with the blunders once they leakAug 13 00:03
schestowitz"Microsoft expends a significant portion of its monopoly power ... on imposing burdensome restrictions on its customers and inducing them to behave in ways that augment and prolong that monopoly power.." -Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson in the Microsoft antitrust trialAug 13 00:04
schestowitzhttp://www.kenauletta.com/finaloffer.html '[Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson] went as far as to compare [Microsoft’s] declaration of innocence to the protestations of gangland killers. He was referring to five gang members in a racketeering, drug-dealing, and murder trial that he had presided over four years earlier. [...] Jackson believed that Gates & Co.’s “crime” was hubris—a refusal to acknowledge that the nation’s antAug 13 00:04
schestowitzitrust laws applied to them."Aug 13 00:04
schestowitz"He was only half joking when he told me, “If I were able to propose a remedy of my devising, I’d require Mr. Gates to write a book report.” The assignment, Jackson said, would be a recent biography of Napoleon, and he went on, “Because I think he has a Napoleonic concept of himself and his company, an arrogance that derives from power and unalloyed success, with no leavening hard experience, no reverses.” "Aug 13 00:05
zoobab01http://adaptux.com/standards/ooxml-wg4-leap-year-bug-unfixAug 13 00:05
zoobab011900 bug back in OOXMLAug 13 00:05
fewa"Microsoft blames enemy infiltration for faulty leadership"Aug 13 00:06
fewa:PAug 13 00:06
schestowitz"Here's a fine kettle of fish. Pfizer's lawyers hired a detective who ended up intimidating a witness the day before he was due to testify..." http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090809231252693Aug 13 00:07
fewageezeAug 13 00:08
oiaohmO boy I would not want to be PfizerAug 13 00:08
fewaIts a leech on societyAug 13 00:08
fewaThat sort of thing rots society from the insideAug 13 00:08
fewaShows that these companies have no respect for society or lawAug 13 00:09
*Xarver (n=quassel@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 00:09
schestowitzSeattle ID thief gets three years < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1529055/seattle-id-thief >Aug 13 00:10
schestowitzfewa: give em an overdose of viagra and be done with itAug 13 00:10
schestowitzThey'll convulse their way to Titian (the moon)Aug 13 00:11
schestowitz*titanAug 13 00:11
fewaPharmecuticals do a limited set of things: Get patents from taking idea from public research, evading patents of competitors, advertising, and lastly arguing for patents "so they can innovate"Aug 13 00:12
fewaand now supressing evidence through thug tacticsAug 13 00:12
schestowitzMicrosoft did the same thignAug 13 00:13
schestowitzRemember Florida?Aug 13 00:13
schestowitzMicrosoft's 'Men in Black' kill Florida open standards legislation < http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/61481 >Aug 13 00:14
schestowitzKosovo editor: Islamist hackers block Web site < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/kosovo-editor-islamist-hackers-block-web-site-20090812-eh4k.html >Aug 13 00:15
schestowitzAnother sub-part Apple 'product' finds that hype and branding alone are not enough; Apple TV is a lemon < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1528974/apple-tv-lemon .Aug 13 00:16
schestowitz*sub-parAug 13 00:16
schestowitzMatt Cutts shaved his head. Weird.Aug 13 00:18
fewaschestowitz, oh yeah, and everything they said at those comittes was a lieAug 13 00:28
fewathey should be presecuted for defrauding the publicAug 13 00:28
schestowitzWHo?Aug 13 00:28
*Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-64-88.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 00:29
fewathe MS supportersAug 13 00:29
schestowitzMicrosoft?Aug 13 00:29
schestowitzOhAug 13 00:29
fewawould said they were independantAug 13 00:29
schestowitzWell, that's a story for tomorrowAug 13 00:29
fewasaid that ODF was not a vendor-neutral standardAug 13 00:29
fewasaid that OOXML wasAug 13 00:29
schestowitzIt's in the investors' interestsAug 13 00:29
schestowitzTo lie=goodAug 13 00:29
fewawe need ethics reformAug 13 00:29
schestowitzTo say truth=bad for investorsAug 13 00:29
schestowitzCorollary = lies payAug 13 00:29
schestowitzMicrosoft likes pay, so Microsoft prefers corruptionAug 13 00:30
schestowitzAs the saying goes, "crime pays"Aug 13 00:30
fewaBut corruption corrupts absolutelyAug 13 00:30
schestowitzVigilance too pays offAug 13 00:30
fewano business could afford to operate in a world with maximum corruptionAug 13 00:30
schestowitzfewa: BN tries to look at ethics  in few areasAug 13 00:30
fewaits only beinfitial if their sector is corrupt, and only when they have the upper handAug 13 00:30
schestowitzOne person suggested making a 'planet' (aggregator) or sites of this natureAug 13 00:31
schestowitzGroklaw is another of this kind and TechDirt alsoAug 13 00:31
fewaThats why sane ethics and jury court system is the foundation for a strong societyAug 13 00:31
schestowitzGoldmanSachs666 strikes me as too emotionalAug 13 00:31
schestowitzCalling them 'banklsters" lose some listeners early onAug 13 00:31
schestowitz*bankstersAug 13 00:31
fewalet these people's actions give themselves scarlet lettersAug 13 00:32
schestowitzhttp://www.goldmansachs666.com/2009/08/level-3-problem-at-goldman-sachs.htmlAug 13 00:32
schestowitzSee? Capital letters and allAug 13 00:32
schestowitzThis site is messy IMHO. Aug 13 00:32
*seller_liar (i=c92ad4e9@gateway/web/freenode/x-a403f007680f1d54) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 00:36
seller_liarI was thinking.....Aug 13 00:36
seller_liarMono people is trying to put even more dependecy of mono in ubuntuAug 13 00:37
schestowitzHey, seller_liar Aug 13 00:37
seller_liarhello royAug 13 00:37
seller_liarfor exampleAug 13 00:37
schestowitzfewa: seller_liar is our main ethics proponentAug 13 00:37
seller_liarsome devs is porting sqlite to c#Aug 13 00:37
fewagoodAug 13 00:37
seller_liarf-spot  uses sqliteAug 13 00:37
schestowitzHe's the one who suggested a plnetAug 13 00:37
schestowitz*planetAug 13 00:37
seller_liarresult = f-spot sharp +sqlite# = more mono dependency in ubuntuAug 13 00:37
schestowitzSo you think they want other apps to latch into sqlite# ?Aug 13 00:38
schestowitzOnes that did not use sqlite# prior to that?Aug 13 00:38
fewawhy the hell do they have to rewrite a gazillion bindings?Aug 13 00:39
schestowitzLike... of Firefox in Ubuntu uses sqlite, then they can propagate it to # to 'save space'?Aug 13 00:39
fewaC# is so close to C why cant they just use the C bindings?Aug 13 00:39
schestowitzThat would be an infection lower down the stackAug 13 00:39
schestowitzThere's dbub#Aug 13 00:39
schestowitzLook it up in BNAug 13 00:39
seller_liarbut he is portingh ALL sqliteAug 13 00:39
seller_liarnot only a simple wrapperAug 13 00:39
fewaseller_liar, he is slowing down ALL sqliteAug 13 00:39
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/mono-and-moonlight-winforms/Aug 13 00:40
fewasimply for the purpose of encumbering itAug 13 00:40
seller_liaryes, but probably mono people will trty to put this version of sqlite in ubunutAug 13 00:40
schestowitzHere's one about dbusAug 13 00:40
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/31/gnome-mono-depenency-dbus/Aug 13 00:40
fewaits a classic example of bloatAug 13 00:40
seller_liarAnd I have heard some comments about mono people trying to force zeitgeist developer to use monoAug 13 00:41
fewasqlite is used in billions of applications and instancesAug 13 00:41
seller_liarBut ,thanks god, zeiteigst dev is smart!Aug 13 00:41
fewaand now someone want to ignore all that bug testingAug 13 00:41
seller_liaryesAug 13 00:42
seller_liarmono people loves to attack gnote ,Aug 13 00:42
seller_liarbut mono people does a lot of portingAug 13 00:43
seller_liarlucene itext are exampleAug 13 00:43
seller_liarlucene is javaAug 13 00:43
seller_liaritext is javaAug 13 00:43
schestowitzRefutation of IDG FUD: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/26920/1090/Aug 13 00:43
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oiaohmI am noticing a lot of anti gpl stuff lately.  Trying to say more project should be more open to closed source bitsAug 13 00:53
seller_liarbig companies like apple ,microsoft pay a lot of trolls these daysAug 13 00:53
seller_liarGpl is the most ethical license , it respects the freedom entirelyAug 13 00:54
Diablo-D3meh not reallyAug 13 00:54
seller_liareven linus hates gplv3Aug 13 00:54
Diablo-D3bsd/mit is the most ethical.Aug 13 00:54
seller_liarnoAug 13 00:54
Diablo-D3it allows you to do _anything_Aug 13 00:54
seller_liarbecause ,it gives power to people destroy freedomAug 13 00:54
Diablo-D3including the freedom to remove freedomAug 13 00:54
Diablo-D3thats a feature not a bugAug 13 00:55
seller_liarand this is not EthicalAug 13 00:55
Diablo-D3taking away freedoms is not ethicalAug 13 00:55
Diablo-D3ergo gpl is not ethicalAug 13 00:55
oiaohmFreedom is a myth.Aug 13 00:55
seller_liartaking away freedom is no ethicalAug 13 00:55
oiaohmThere is no such thing as complete freedom.Aug 13 00:55
oiaohmResult of complete freedom is chaos.Aug 13 00:56
seller_liarbsd is chaosAug 13 00:56
seller_liarbecause of complete freedomAug 13 00:56
Diablo-D3seller_liar is troll.Aug 13 00:56
oiaohmBSD is not complete freedom.Aug 13 00:56
seller_liarnoAug 13 00:56
Diablo-D3and not even a good oneAug 13 00:56
seller_liarWhy I 'm trroll?Aug 13 00:56
oiaohmYou cannot remove the bsd licence tag from the source code seller_liarAug 13 00:57
oiaohmSo there is a restriction.Aug 13 00:57
seller_liarBut permits proprietary softwareAug 13 00:57
oiaohmThat does not mean its complete freedom.Aug 13 00:57
seller_liarthe gnu project tries to destroy proprietary softwareAug 13 00:57
oiaohmAgain wrong seller_liarAug 13 00:57
seller_liarbut BSD licenses help proprietary softwareAug 13 00:57
Diablo-D3oiaohm: actually, you can remove itAug 13 00:57
Diablo-D3you cant remove the _copyright_Aug 13 00:57
oiaohmDiablo-D3: read novell vs BSD case.Aug 13 00:58
Diablo-D3oiaohm: microsoft uses bsd code and does not distribute the sourceAug 13 00:58
oiaohmBSD does not require source code to be released.Aug 13 00:58
Diablo-D3they, however, comply with the license and include the copyright statements in a visible spotAug 13 00:58
Diablo-D3oiaohm: exactlyAug 13 00:58
oiaohmLGPL can be embed in programs that are closed source everywhere else.Aug 13 00:58
seller_liar BSD helps microsoftAug 13 00:58
Diablo-D3BSD also hurts microsoftAug 13 00:59
oiaohmThere is some GPL and LGPL shiped by MS seller_liarAug 13 00:59
Diablo-D3oiaohm: better yetAug 13 00:59
oiaohmSo its not black and white.Aug 13 00:59
Diablo-D3microsoft ships gnu project originated gpl codeAug 13 00:59
Diablo-D3the SFU blob is half of a gnu *nix distroAug 13 00:59
seller_liarbut permissive licences does not helps free softwareAug 13 00:59
Diablo-D3even has gccAug 13 00:59
oiaohmProprietray programmers want to set rules on there use of code.Aug 13 01:00
oiaohmOpen source developers are no different.Aug 13 01:00
seller_liarthe only thing which these licences helps is code sharingAug 13 01:00
Diablo-D3seller_liar: please troll elsewhereAug 13 01:00
Diablo-D3we're all stocked up on crazy hereAug 13 01:00
schestowitzHe's not trollingAug 13 01:00
seller_liarbsd permits to join gpl , mit and other codes in a same projectAug 13 01:00
schestowitzDiablo-D3: seller_liar is most welcome hereAug 13 01:00
oiaohmBSD in GPL code is one way.Aug 13 01:00
seller_liarthanks roy .Aug 13 01:01
schestowitzThose who oppose his strand are usually the trollsAug 13 01:01
seller_liarI'm not a trollAug 13 01:01
oiaohmBSD developers get up set at times with GPL why.Aug 13 01:01
schestowitzThey are the ones who come here to mock freedom-preserving actionAug 13 01:01
oiaohmBecause GPL project takes a BSD project file expands it then they cannot take it back.Aug 13 01:01
schestowitzgnAug 13 01:01
seller_liarMy opinion is use LGPLV3Aug 13 01:01
seller_liargnAug 13 01:01
oiaohmYet the have no problem with closed source.Aug 13 01:01
oiaohmWhat is really strange.Aug 13 01:01
oiaohmBoth are really doing the same thing.Aug 13 01:02
seller_liargood licence and permits to join source code with other licensesAug 13 01:02
seller_liarlike apache ,bsd and mitAug 13 01:02
oiaohmThat is another BSD defence line.Aug 13 01:02
seller_liarBut bsd is bad!Aug 13 01:02
seller_liarand mit is tooAug 13 01:02
fewaGPL provides freedom that BSD only gives when it feels like itAug 13 01:03
oiaohmThe developers could have choson public domain instead of BSD by the way.Aug 13 01:03
seller_liarif all people uses bsd , proprietary software will all the timeAug 13 01:03
seller_liarpublic domain is even worst!Aug 13 01:03
Diablo-D3schestowitz: I dont know why you let trolls in hereAug 13 01:03
Diablo-D3schestowitz: there _are_ trolls who spout pro-GNU/GPL stuffAug 13 01:03
oiaohmDiablo-D3: this is normal bsd logic.Aug 13 01:03
Diablo-D3they are the ones that are most dangerousAug 13 01:03
Diablo-D3oiaohm: what is?Aug 13 01:03
oiaohmWhat seller_liar is covering.Aug 13 01:04
fewayesAug 13 01:04
Diablo-D3oiaohm: the argument of "bsd is bad because microsoft can use it" is a troll argumentAug 13 01:04
oiaohmBSD is both good and bad.Aug 13 01:04
oiaohmNo licence is perfect.Aug 13 01:04
fewaI have had to tell them: without GPL all OSes would be encumberedAug 13 01:04
seller_liarI prefer gplAug 13 01:04
Diablo-D3oiaohm: I prefer BSD/MIT and all the clonesAug 13 01:05
seller_liarBSD is bad because it helps proprietary softwareAug 13 01:05
oiaohmBSD has broad intergration but more risk people will not return code.Aug 13 01:05
seller_liarproprietary software is bad!Aug 13 01:05
oiaohmGPL has more patch feed back.Aug 13 01:05
Diablo-D3seller_liar: even thats wrongAug 13 01:05
Diablo-D3software that sucks is badAug 13 01:05
seller_liarNoAug 13 01:05
Diablo-D3it doesnt matter what license it is as long as it worksAug 13 01:05
oiaohmProprietray software is how you define it.Aug 13 01:05
fewaDiablo-D3 is rightAug 13 01:05
fewabut not totallyAug 13 01:05
Diablo-D3if windows didnt suck I would have never discovered linuxAug 13 01:05
seller_liarI prefer a bad free software than good proprietary softwareAug 13 01:05
oiaohmFew open source project grow because of proprietray code usage.Aug 13 01:05
Diablo-D3its microsoft's direct fault I had to go out and discover itAug 13 01:06
fewaif you have no control over the software you cant make it do what you wantAug 13 01:06
oiaohmIe closed source modules for a while once its been payed for released open source seller_liarAug 13 01:06
fewaIts not just what it does, but what it can do your youAug 13 01:06
fewahow you can fix itAug 13 01:06
oiaohmNothing is black and white seller_liarAug 13 01:06
oiaohmThere are shades of grey.Aug 13 01:06
Diablo-D3fewa: thats just a feature of foss software in generalAug 13 01:06
Diablo-D3fewa: if it sucks, I can fix itAug 13 01:06
Diablo-D3BUT IT SHOULDNT SUCKAug 13 01:06
fewaDiablo-D3, but its why it is so goodAug 13 01:06
oiaohmTake ID.  All there game engines end up released open source seller_liarAug 13 01:06
fewaDiablo-D3, noAug 13 01:06
fewaDiablo-D3, even good proprietary software is limitingAug 13 01:07
oiaohmBut at first they are released closed source so they can profit from it seller_liar.Aug 13 01:07
fewawhen you suddenly need some featureAug 13 01:07
Diablo-D3fewa: thats not entirely trueAug 13 01:07
fewaand if it had every feature it would be bloatAug 13 01:07
oiaohmSo is ID bad for releaseing closed source software seller_liar?Aug 13 01:07
seller_liarOf course , some things are grey areasAug 13 01:07
Diablo-D3many proprietary softwares have plugin systems and have free (beer or otherwise) SDKs for themAug 13 01:07
seller_liarbut morst of software must be freeAug 13 01:07
fewatrueAug 13 01:08
seller_liarbut a free sdk to a proprietary thing is a bad thingAug 13 01:08
Diablo-D3the software would have to be fundamentally designed wrong for me not to be able to plugin what I wantAug 13 01:08
fewaseller_liar, it is better than no SDKAug 13 01:08
oiaohmI would prefer if proprietary software had to follow the ID model.Aug 13 01:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] People in US sue far less now than they did in 1840s. "litigious society" claims bogus http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/445934Aug 13 01:08
seller_liarfewa: It's better to don t use the softwareAug 13 01:08
oiaohmIe when you stop support you must release the source code so others can support it.Aug 13 01:08
Diablo-D3oiaohm: actually, the id model exists because they wanted games that didnt suckAug 13 01:08
seller_liarIt's better to use energy to create a free replacement /Aug 13 01:09
oiaohmID is a closed source company that does care for there users.Aug 13 01:09
Diablo-D3oiaohm: id is lowercaseAug 13 01:09
fewaseller_liar, but you still have to admit that propritary software that provides some freedoms is better than that which has noneAug 13 01:09
seller_liarI prefer to use my time to implement gnash than use adobe sdksAug 13 01:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] People sue far less now than they did in 1840s. "litigious society" claims bogus http://ur1.ca/8y8u http://ur1.ca/8y8p http://ur1.ca/8y8oAug 13 01:09
oiaohmI keep on forgeting sorry Diablo-D3Aug 13 01:09
Diablo-D3and its funny you mention idAug 13 01:10
seller_liarfewa: No!Aug 13 01:10
fewaseller_liar, i said that wrongAug 13 01:10
oiaohmThey are one of the best examples of how I wish the software world worked Diablo-D3Aug 13 01:10
fewaas non-free software is not freeAug 13 01:10
Diablo-D3I've played quake1 forever, and the game I currently play uses darkplaces which is an almost complete rewrite of the quake1 engineAug 13 01:10
seller_liarfewa: Because we can  create dependency in proprietary softwareAug 13 01:10
seller_liarfewa: Because we can not  create dependency in proprietary softwareAug 13 01:11
oiaohmThere is a line between doing business and not doing business.Aug 13 01:11
Diablo-D3there is a line between burning bridges and not.Aug 13 01:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Judge declares red light camera program illegal, and all tickets void. http://ur1.ca/8y98Aug 13 01:11
Diablo-D3seller_liar follows the gnu burn bridges modelAug 13 01:11
oiaohmproprietary software that does not abuse users don't have long term bad effects of dependency.Aug 13 01:11
fewaIt is better to put time into free softwareAug 13 01:11
seller_liarfewa: yes !Aug 13 01:11
seller_liaroiaohm: WrongAug 13 01:12
fewaDiablo-D3, its a refusal to contribute to software which is not ethicalAug 13 01:12
oiaohmDo companies that follow the id model create stuck to dependency answer no seller_liar.Aug 13 01:12
Diablo-D3fewa: except even saying ethics is a meaningless statementAug 13 01:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Refutation of IDG FUD: http://ping.fm/RFfzMAug 13 01:12
Diablo-D3the world does not revolve around communismAug 13 01:12
seller_liaroiaohm: Proprietary sofware is a way to gain more and more powerAug 13 01:12
fewaDiablo-D3, you need to read your definitionsAug 13 01:12
oiaohmid used standard like methods of documenting there filesystems.Aug 13 01:12
Diablo-D3fewa: I never drank the gnu coolaidAug 13 01:12
oiaohmseller_liar: abused proprietray does.Aug 13 01:12
fewaDiablo-D3, and stop misusing words you do not underandAug 13 01:12
oiaohmNot companies like id seller_liarAug 13 01:13
Diablo-D3okay, sorry, "flavoraid"Aug 13 01:13
seller_liarTher natural way of Proprietary software is gain more and more powerAug 13 01:13
seller_liarIt's like a cancerAug 13 01:13
Diablo-D3seller_liar: s/power/money/Aug 13 01:13
Diablo-D3they're a business, they are mandated to make moneyAug 13 01:13
Diablo-D3periodAug 13 01:13
oiaohmProprietray software using documented standard formats is not a threat seller_liarAug 13 01:13
fewaDiablo-D3, you still are not seeing itAug 13 01:13
oiaohmSince other are free to clone them.Aug 13 01:13
seller_liarIf proprietary software continue to grow ,someday everything is proprietaryAug 13 01:13
Diablo-D3seller_liar: welcome to 1800s america.Aug 13 01:14
Diablo-D3you're a little late to the partyAug 13 01:14
seller_liarDiablo-D3: What?Aug 13 01:14
fewaDiablo-D3, WTF?Aug 13 01:14
oiaohmWe could have open source software and no compadibley and just as bad mess as proprietray now seller_liarAug 13 01:14
fewaI think _you_ are trollingAug 13 01:14
Diablo-D3we already went through the stage of everything is proprietaryAug 13 01:14
fewaDiablo-D3, specify what you are talking aboutAug 13 01:14
Diablo-D3no one liked itAug 13 01:14
oiaohmseller_liar: most important thing is standards.Aug 13 01:14
Diablo-D3what oiaohm just said ties into what I saidAug 13 01:14
oiaohmYou see this if you look at id and other examples.Aug 13 01:15
fewaDiablo-D3, read about the lates 1800s and early 1900sAug 13 01:15
Diablo-D3the world discovered the beauty of following standardsAug 13 01:15
Diablo-D3and we've been happier ever sinceAug 13 01:15
oiaohmid allows have documented there fileformats completely.Aug 13 01:15
Diablo-D3foss isnt about sharing code first... its about following and promoting standards firstAug 13 01:15
oiaohmMS has never even to day documented there fileformats completely.Aug 13 01:15
Diablo-D3this is why foss is better softwareAug 13 01:15
fewaDiablo-D3, actions common today are not set in stone foreverAug 13 01:15
oiaohmCompanies with secrect formats have lock in seller_liar.Aug 13 01:15
Diablo-D3not because its libre free, not because anyone can fix it, but because its documented sanely.Aug 13 01:16
seller_liarWe are not talking about standartsAug 13 01:16
seller_liarsoftware is different than standartsAug 13 01:16
oiaohmProperitary software is not a threat if there file formats are standard.Aug 13 01:16
Diablo-D3software is an implementation of a standardAug 13 01:16
fewaPlatforms much be freeAug 13 01:16
oiaohmThat is the simple fact seller_liar.Aug 13 01:16
Diablo-D3weather this standard exists outside of that implementation in any form is immaterialAug 13 01:16
fewaThis is a factAug 13 01:16
seller_liaryes, but software is even more thans standartsAug 13 01:16
Diablo-D3er, whetherAug 13 01:16
seller_liarproprietary software envolver another ideasAug 13 01:17
fewaoiaohm, no, propritary platforms are in themselves threatsAug 13 01:17
oiaohmFreedom of usage of data does not need to care about propritary.Aug 13 01:17
Diablo-D3seller_liar: wrongAug 13 01:17
Diablo-D3software is less than standardsAug 13 01:17
oiaohmFreedom of usage of data depends on standards.Aug 13 01:17
Diablo-D3a free and open standard is more important than any free and open software can beAug 13 01:17
fewaDiablo-D3, what are you talking about?Aug 13 01:17
fewaDiablo-D3, you keep saying things that make no senseAug 13 01:17
Diablo-D3fewa: I'm responding to a troll, sup with you?Aug 13 01:17
oiaohmIf you have freedom of usage you can change away from any platform to another without issues.Aug 13 01:17
Diablo-D3oiaohm: I suspect #bn is full of gnu trolls.Aug 13 01:18
oiaohmSoftware closed or open is not the only factor.Aug 13 01:18
fewaDiablo-D3, what postitions of seller_liar are you refuting?Aug 13 01:18
Diablo-D3its kind of scary these kind of people existAug 13 01:18
seller_liarno Diablo-D3Aug 13 01:18
oiaohmI can give many examples of companies having major troubles converting between 2 open source packages due to the lack of a common standard.Aug 13 01:18
fewaDiablo-D3, trolls must be trolling for somethingAug 13 01:18
Diablo-D3fewa: all the ones that involve him trying to destroy the software industry by force.Aug 13 01:18
seller_liarsoftware is more than standartsAug 13 01:18
fewaDiablo-D3, has he said that?Aug 13 01:18
oiaohmSoftware is not important seller_liarAug 13 01:18
oiaohmData and standards are.Aug 13 01:18
Diablo-D3fewa: in not so many words, seller_liar says the bsd license is bad for fossAug 13 01:19
seller_liaroiaohm: wrongAug 13 01:19
fewaDiablo-D3, he simply says that he does not want to contribute to non-free softwareAug 13 01:19
oiaohmSoftware will not be replaced.Aug 13 01:19
seller_liarsoftware = standarts + algosAug 13 01:19
fewaDiablo-D3, you do not understand the difference between free will and coercionAug 13 01:19
seller_liarsoftware is more than standartsAug 13 01:19
oiaohmStandards allow you to use the data in 100~ of years time.Aug 13 01:19
fewaDiablo-D3, how has seller_liar coerced you>Aug 13 01:19
Diablo-D3fewa: has anyone put a gun to your head? no. do not use the word coercion again.Aug 13 01:19
fewa????Aug 13 01:19
oiaohmSoftware is less important than standards.Aug 13 01:19
seller_liaroiaohm: wrong!Aug 13 01:19
oiaohmWith standards any software can be replaced.Aug 13 01:19
Diablo-D3oiaohm is rightAug 13 01:19
seller_liarsoftware = standarts + algosAug 13 01:19
Diablo-D3data freedom is paramount over software freedomAug 13 01:20
oiaohmSo closed source program can be replaced.Aug 13 01:20
fewaoiaohm, you are only looking at business logic, not platformsAug 13 01:20
oiaohmalgos are normally embed in standards.Aug 13 01:20
Diablo-D3the _only_ thing that matters is dataAug 13 01:20
seller_liarstandarts is a static ideaAug 13 01:20
Diablo-D3software must be replaced regularly, closed or openAug 13 01:20
seller_liarsoftware is a dynamic ideaAug 13 01:20
fewaoiaohm, you dont get that the software is the machineAug 13 01:20
Diablo-D3without standards, you lose your data when you "upgrade" your softwareAug 13 01:20
oiaohmMachines change with time.Aug 13 01:20
oiaohmSoftware always has to be replaced.Aug 13 01:20
Diablo-D3without standards, even foss would have vendor lockinAug 13 01:20
fewabut the software is still the machineAug 13 01:20
oiaohmits only a temporarly effect.Aug 13 01:20
fewait is how the machine thinkAug 13 01:20
oiaohmTry running windows 95 with 1 G of ram fewaAug 13 01:21
Diablo-D3oiaohm: these people are nutjobsAug 13 01:21
oiaohmAnd on modern day hardware.Aug 13 01:21
fewaoiaohm, Its a version of manchurian candidateAug 13 01:21
Diablo-D3Im not sure why I keep coming hereAug 13 01:21
fewaoiaohm, non sequitorAug 13 01:21
seller_liarbut software is more important even if a temporary thingAug 13 01:21
seller_liarbecause ,software it does the workAug 13 01:21
seller_liarstandarts notAug 13 01:21
oiaohmsoftware is only temp.Aug 13 01:21
fewaoiaohm, software lasts longer and longerAug 13 01:21
seller_liarsoftware is responsible to maitains your machine aliveAug 13 01:21
fewait is not longer just business logicAug 13 01:21
oiaohmGood standards allow open source or closed source to replace each other.Aug 13 01:21
seller_liarstandarts not!Aug 13 01:21
fewaoiaohm, non sequitorAug 13 01:22
oiaohmSoftware does not last that long really.Aug 13 01:22
fewabut it doesAug 13 01:22
seller_liarbut is the most important than standartAug 13 01:22
fewaIts only that its been rewritten for sake of competition and for building a free systemAug 13 01:22
oiaohmLinux kernel oldest bit in there is about 4 years old.Aug 13 01:22
seller_liarsoftware does not depend of standartsAug 13 01:22
fewaI think what oiaohm is saying applies to business logic, but nothing elseAug 13 01:23
oiaohmsoftware that does not depend on standards for its fileformats cannot be trusted.Aug 13 01:23
seller_liarstandarts helps software ,but it 's not essentialAug 13 01:23
-tomaw-[Global Notice] In memory of a recently deceased good friend: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-787855-start-0-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-.htmlAug 13 01:23
fewathere are two differnt types of softwareAug 13 01:23
oiaohm3 different types.Aug 13 01:23
fewaplatform software and business logic softwareAug 13 01:23
seller_liarruby is a exampleAug 13 01:23
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fewaone is how the computer thinks, and the other is what it should think aboutAug 13 01:24
oiaohmplatform software business software and data recovery.Aug 13 01:24
oiaohmYou cannot forget data recovery.Aug 13 01:24
fewaoiaohm, error recovery lawlAug 13 01:24
seller_liarfree software already is a standardAug 13 01:24
oiaohmNo it is not seller_liarAug 13 01:24
fewanot neglectingAug 13 01:24
oiaohmgo get recipe book programs in open source seller_liarAug 13 01:25
oiaohmYou find a lot are incompadible with each other.Aug 13 01:25
oiaohmDue to no storage standard.Aug 13 01:25
fewaerror recovery is a black holeAug 13 01:25
seller_liarbut the code is free to change and fix these problemsAug 13 01:25
fewaUNIX tossed it out for a reasonAug 13 01:25
oiaohmFlawed logic seller_liarAug 13 01:25
fewaoiaohm, but the user can say how the machine thinksAug 13 01:25
oiaohmIs everyone a coder.Aug 13 01:26
fewathats importantAug 13 01:26
oiaohmAnswer is no.Aug 13 01:26
oiaohmThat is the important thing to remember.Aug 13 01:26
fewaIt is possible to create a system that is a lockAug 13 01:26
oiaohmseeing the source code alone does not protect users.Aug 13 01:26
fewathese systems enslaveAug 13 01:26
seller_liarof course ,there are a lot of different implementations of rubyAug 13 01:26
fewathis is what seller_liar is talking aboutAug 13 01:26
fewanot just freedom to create, but freedom from opressive softwareAug 13 01:26
seller_liarbut I can communicate with erveryone because I know how these implementations worksAug 13 01:26
oiaohmPeople can be enslaved as a business due to not being able to convert due to lack of standards in applications they started using.Aug 13 01:26
oiaohmopen source with support contracts still can be used in a obpressive way.Aug 13 01:27
fewaand not just business logic, which is oiaohm's field and which he understands wellAug 13 01:27
seller_liarproprietary software is  not only a business problemAug 13 01:27
seller_liaris a knowledge problemAug 13 01:27
fewaits beyond business logicAug 13 01:27
seller_liarand other problemsAug 13 01:27
fewaseller_liar has a pointAug 13 01:27
seller_liarproprietary software put knowledge in jailAug 13 01:28
seller_liarfor exampleAug 13 01:28
oiaohmIf the software does not lock up you data are you stuck using the proprietary software.Aug 13 01:28
seller_liarimagine a thingAug 13 01:28
oiaohmNot all proprietray software puts information in a jail.Aug 13 01:28
seller_liarYou cannot create a windows logo because microsoft owns windows logoAug 13 01:28
fewaoiaohm, if the computer thinks on behalf of another actor, you are enslaved by the computerAug 13 01:29
oiaohmNot all open source software allows data to move freely to other products.Aug 13 01:29
seller_liareven if you prove what you done everything aloneAug 13 01:29
oiaohmEven other open source products.Aug 13 01:29
Diablo-D3oiaohm: I already said thatAug 13 01:29
fewaoiaohm, if the computer thinks on your behalf then you are in control, and the machine does your biddingAug 13 01:29
Diablo-D3fewa: we abolished slavery awhile agoAug 13 01:29
oiaohmYour data should be the most important thing to you.Aug 13 01:29
oiaohmSo you should not use formats that lock it away from you.Aug 13 01:29
fewaDiablo-D3, http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=slaveryAug 13 01:30
seller_liarproprietary software destroys knowledge because you cannot use proprietary software to improve your ideasAug 13 01:30
oiaohmyou don't get taken into slavery if your data does not get trapped.Aug 13 01:30
seller_liaroiaohm: it's not only a data problemAug 13 01:30
fewaoiaohm, only for business logicAug 13 01:30
oiaohmIt is a data problem seller_liarAug 13 01:30
seller_liarno , software is important tooAug 13 01:30
oiaohmWhy MS Office become common.Aug 13 01:30
fewabut yes for software which employees business logic in obvious ways, you are rightAug 13 01:30
oiaohmPeople would send other people MS only formats.Aug 13 01:31
oiaohmSo they would get data they could not access without MS.Aug 13 01:31
fewabut for the platform, you are not seeing the trapAug 13 01:31
oiaohmData is the big factor.Aug 13 01:31
seller_liaroiaohm: no , it dependsAug 13 01:31
oiaohmData is the force.Aug 13 01:31
seller_liarfor example , the software is dataAug 13 01:31
oiaohmPeople go to uni so are told they need word to submit data.Aug 13 01:32
seller_liarbut does not matter for the userAug 13 01:32
seller_liarthe important thing for the user is the documentAug 13 01:32
seller_liarbutAug 13 01:32
oiaohmdata traveling between users.Aug 13 01:32
seller_liarfor me the most important this is the document and the softwareAug 13 01:32
seller_liarfor me the most important thing  is the document and the softwareAug 13 01:32
oiaohmMost important to me in the documents.Aug 13 01:32
oiaohmIf they are free people can change.Aug 13 01:32
fewaoiaohm, the network is the computer, so standards and formats matter alot, but they are not the only thing that is importantAug 13 01:32
seller_liarbut someday the software can be the documentAug 13 01:33
oiaohmIf they are not free people can get locked into programs that are not suitable.Aug 13 01:33
oiaohmOpen source or closed.Aug 13 01:33
fewaWhen the computer runs propritary software it runs according to the will and logic of othersAug 13 01:33
fewait does not think to your interestAug 13 01:34
seller_liarsource code is important too ,but it's not important for common peopleAug 13 01:34
oiaohmSame is true for non programmers always fewaAug 13 01:34
fewaoiaohm, but non-programmers can hire a programmerAug 13 01:34
seller_liarnon programmers is not importantAug 13 01:34
seller_liarbut is important for programmers !Aug 13 01:34
fewaoiaohm, it is like saying that a dictaitorship is ok cause only the dictaitor sets lawsAug 13 01:34
oiaohmMost of the computer users are non programmers.Aug 13 01:34
fewaoiaohm, but instead in this society you can hire a lawyerAug 13 01:34
seller_liarand a common people someday it will need to know about the source codeAug 13 01:34
fewathats the differenceAug 13 01:35
oiaohmThe what is dominate in software is defined by the normal users.Aug 13 01:35
seller_liarbut both are importantAug 13 01:35
Diablo-D3fewa: you say dictatorships are bad... so why does foss have so many of them?Aug 13 01:35
oiaohmseller_liar: you are thinking from freedom of developers.Aug 13 01:35
fewaand common people can represent themselves, just like they can hire a lawyerAug 13 01:35
seller_liarof course, some people does not matter about source code because it does not know about ethicsAug 13 01:35
oiaohmI am thinking from freedom of the common people.Aug 13 01:35
seller_liarno"Aug 13 01:35
Diablo-D3foss is not democratic or a republic, its a series of dictatorships who interact with each other superficiallyAug 13 01:35
fewaDiablo-D3, go away, ever FOSS project can be forkedAug 13 01:36
oiaohmThey should be free to move not restricted.Aug 13 01:36
seller_liarfreedom of all people ,because in software ,we use all ideas from knowledgeAug 13 01:36
Diablo-D3fewa: thats just a revolution who installs another dictatorAug 13 01:36
fewaDiablo-D3, again you mistake coercion and free willAug 13 01:36
seller_liarand knowledge is generated from all peopleAug 13 01:36
Diablo-D3fewa: I do notAug 13 01:36
Diablo-D3I'm just claiming you're full of shitAug 13 01:36
oiaohmI really don't care if a closed source or open source project is restricting a users means to move between programs.   Either one is doing wrong.Aug 13 01:36
seller_liarNo , you must care about these thingsAug 13 01:37
oiaohmMeans to move freely allow true competition.Aug 13 01:37
Diablo-D3oiaohm: but gnutards dont believe gnu is also vendor lockinAug 13 01:37
seller_liarbecause proprietary software can grow and steal all ideas of worldAug 13 01:37
Diablo-D3an overlord is an overlord is an overlordAug 13 01:37
oiaohmHow seller_liarAug 13 01:37
Diablo-D3seller_liar: you cant steal an ideaAug 13 01:37
oiaohmIf all formats the program is using are documented how is it going to steal ideas.Aug 13 01:38
seller_liarYes , I canAug 13 01:38
Diablo-D3no, you can be an utter dick, but you cant steal an ideaAug 13 01:38
seller_liarFor example ,you cannot to create a windows logo anymoreAug 13 01:38
Diablo-D3the windows logo isnt an ideaAug 13 01:38
seller_liareven you prove is your creation and you don t look microsoft logoAug 13 01:38
Diablo-D3seller_liar: you need to learn trademark lawAug 13 01:38
oiaohmWindows logo is a trademark.Aug 13 01:38
oiaohmYou cannot use firefoxs trademark against rules either.Aug 13 01:39
oiaohmDebian found that out hard wayAug 13 01:39
fewaDiablo-D3, http://pastebin.com/mbb5b082Aug 13 01:39
seller_liaryes , but do drawing is still a ideaAug 13 01:39
fewaill paste it hereAug 13 01:39
Diablo-D3oiaohm: "oh, but, iceweasel!"Aug 13 01:39
fewa"Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keAug 13 01:39
fewaeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spreadAug 13 01:39
fewafrom one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a sAug 13 01:39
fewaubject of property."Aug 13 01:39
fewaThomas JeffersonAug 13 01:39
Diablo-D3dude, fuck offAug 13 01:39
Diablo-D3go flood elsewhereAug 13 01:39
seller_liarthe windows logo is trademarked ,but it still a ideaAug 13 01:40
fewaDiablo-D3, you make the observations, but you end up at a differnt conclusionAug 13 01:40
seller_liarbecause you can implement on a computer or an a paperAug 13 01:40
Diablo-D3seller_liar: its not an ideaAug 13 01:40
Diablo-D3you can't patent it, for exampleAug 13 01:40
Diablo-D3you cant make an implementation of it that actually exists outside of said trademarked artAug 13 01:41
fewayou canAug 13 01:41
fewayou are just coerced by the government otherwiseAug 13 01:41
seller_liarEvery human knowledge is a ideaAug 13 01:41
seller_liardrawings , software ,media, songs ......Aug 13 01:41
Diablo-D3seller_liar: not really, noAug 13 01:42
seller_liarfirefox logo, windows logo and other thingsAug 13 01:42
seller_liarknowledge does not exist outside of human mindAug 13 01:42
Diablo-D3bwahahahahhaahAug 13 01:42
Diablo-D3seller_liar: you need to troll lessAug 13 01:42
fewaseller_liar, you should read Noam Chomsky's work on linguisticsAug 13 01:43
seller_liarfewa: why?Aug 13 01:43
fewait provides a basis for human grammerAug 13 01:44
seller_liarfewa: sorry for my englishAug 13 01:44
fewaoh ok, then dontAug 13 01:44
oiaohmSoftware patents and trademarks are kinda the same kinds of beast seller_liarAug 13 01:51
oiaohmIf a software is just protected by copyright it can be cloned.Aug 13 01:51
fewaRickard Falkvinge said it: why do we need trademarks when we have laws against fraudAug 13 01:52
seller_liaryes, it can be cloned because is a ideaAug 13 01:52
fewa??Aug 13 01:52
fewaIf I misrepresent the origin of something that is fraudAug 13 01:52
fewaso why is trademark neededAug 13 01:52
oiaohmclosed and open source really make no idea to protect to cloning of ideas.Aug 13 01:53
fewaso it can be bought and sold? so the owners of the trademarks can mis-represent their own products?Aug 13 01:53
seller_liarto protect against fraud ,maybeAug 13 01:53
seller_liarbut no to gives freedom to societyAug 13 01:53
oiaohmfewa: iceweasel case was debian adding patches that created bugs that was making firefox look bad.Aug 13 01:53
fewaoiaohm, that was a very approiate use of trademarkAug 13 01:54
oiaohmThere is a approiate usage of trademarks.Aug 13 01:54
fewabut ownership of names, is ownership of development of societyAug 13 01:54
oiaohmBut there is also a lot of bad usage.Aug 13 01:54
oiaohmI don't know of one good usage of a software patent.Aug 13 01:54
fewaas it proports that the rules, capital owners, are above those that develop a systemAug 13 01:55
fewabut it certainly has some usesAug 13 01:55
oiaohmsoftware patents interfer with the means to develop software freely.Aug 13 01:55
fewait is a form of comsumer protectionAug 13 01:55
fewasoftware patents, a very differnt topic, are merely a form of protection racketAug 13 01:55
fewaIts designed like drug lawsAug 13 01:56
seller_liarsoftware patents is not used to ethical reason, only for selfish interestsAug 13 01:56
oiaohmLot of what people complain about closed source about link to not use of standards and items like software patents.Aug 13 01:56
fewato illegalize the acts so only the state can participate in themAug 13 01:56
oiaohmThe best line against closed source is data secuirty.Aug 13 01:57
fewaMexico is having a war for drugs, as if that market disappeared the government would collapseAug 13 01:57
oiaohmMeans to audit.Aug 13 01:57
fewanow they must make illegal free innovation, so they can control it and play favoritesAug 13 01:58
oiaohmReally the worry about closed source takes away from the bigger more important issue.   Will I be able to in future freely create what ever program I need.Aug 13 01:59
fewathey must brain wash the public, double speak them against their own interestsAug 13 01:59
seller_liaryes , fewa is rightAug 13 01:59
seller_liarto strategy of eraAug 13 01:59
oiaohmIts the reason why I stoped caring if people use close source.Aug 13 01:59
fewaYes, a continued regime of software patents is the biggest threat to progress and free innovationAug 13 01:59
seller_liaris brainwash the public , for state stay aloneAug 13 02:00
oiaohmBecause close source is equally screwed by the restriction of free innovation.Aug 13 02:00
oiaohmIn the battle for the right to develop what we need closed source companies should be our friends.Aug 13 02:00
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oiaohmIf they are not they are idiots.Aug 13 02:00
seller_liarbut closing the source is not a friendly thing to doAug 13 02:01
seller_liarthen ,Aug 13 02:01
oiaohmTake the texus at moment.Aug 13 02:01
fewaThe machines are liberating, the youth knows this. The state must control it or fear being replacedAug 13 02:01
seller_liarclosed source companies are not our friendsAug 13 02:01
fewamust control the way the machines thinkAug 13 02:01
oiaohmMS has had a injection that they cannot ship MS word for 60 days due to a patent fewaAug 13 02:01
oiaohmBasically patents can block them from selling product.Aug 13 02:01
fewaoiaohm, exactly, the system is not only for MSAug 13 02:01
fewathe system is protect the entrenched and corrupted interestsAug 13 02:02
oiaohmThat is the problem.Aug 13 02:02
seller_liarnot only microsoftAug 13 02:02
seller_liarbutAug 13 02:02
oiaohmTrolls that are not entrenched.Aug 13 02:02
oiaohmAre causing bigger issues.Aug 13 02:02
seller_liarexxon, nike,mcdonalds, intel ,banks......Aug 13 02:02
fewaOnce someone takes a markeyAug 13 02:02
oiaohmBasically software patents help corrupted interests.Aug 13 02:02
oiaohmNothing more.Aug 13 02:02
shreddarYeah but couldn't MS just pay the royalties for those XML Doc patentsAug 13 02:03
oiaohmEveryone else is a target.Aug 13 02:03
fewashreddar, they can bringe that new troll into the Neuvo rich clubAug 13 02:03
oiaohmshreddar: what about the next patent then the next patent.Aug 13 02:03
seller_liarIBM uses lobby to government to accept patentsAug 13 02:03
oiaohmSooner or latter you are paying more in patents than what people will pay for the program.Aug 13 02:03
oiaohmSo effectively closed source dies.Aug 13 02:03
shreddarAre software pantent really at that point now?Aug 13 02:04
fewaoiaohm, and then the system shuts down and only the existing software can be soldAug 13 02:04
seller_liarand proprietary software helps patent trollsAug 13 02:04
seller_liarfor exampleAug 13 02:04
shreddarCan you really pantent that freely?Aug 13 02:04
seller_liarevery time you buy a copy of windows , you pay stupid mp3 patentsAug 13 02:04
oiaohmshreddar: patent trolls only commonly attack closed source.Aug 13 02:04
oiaohmReason why attack the guy with no money.Aug 13 02:04
oiaohmwho is going to pay you nothing.Aug 13 02:04
fewabut the offense is more comprehensiveAug 13 02:04
seller_liarPeople using windows helps software patent companiesAug 13 02:05
fewaas such coersive systems cant survive in the more open market the internet createsAug 13 02:05
oiaohmMS will lose worse from software patents than open source.Aug 13 02:05
oiaohmIt is the sad facts.  MS backed software patents to destroy open source.  What a screw up.Aug 13 02:06
fewaoiaohm, they are only getting hit as they are on their way down, but they are the same patent agressorsAug 13 02:06
fewaahaAug 13 02:06
fewathe real event is the internetAug 13 02:06
oiaohmfewa: way is ION colecting patents.Aug 13 02:06
oiaohmIBM is not fool.Aug 13 02:06
shreddarWell, I'm pretty sure they'd still be in this predicament even if they never screwed with linuxAug 13 02:07
seller_liarIBM is more powerful than microsoftAug 13 02:07
oiaohmIf there is enough patents all closed source software companies in USA are screwed.Aug 13 02:07
seller_liarI don t know IBM plansAug 13 02:07
fewanot the established interestAug 13 02:07
seller_liarbut these plans is not goodAug 13 02:07
fewaas they will always get waiversAug 13 02:07
oiaohmand every company would have to join OIN to protect self.Aug 13 02:07
oiaohmSo cure patent problem.Aug 13 02:07
fewaas business must go onAug 13 02:07
fewapeople need computers so computers will be soldAug 13 02:07
fewait will just prevent new entrantAug 13 02:08
seller_liarOIN does not helps ,OIN helps software patentsAug 13 02:08
seller_liarThe real solution is the end of soft patentsAug 13 02:08
oiaohmOIN is a long term game seller_liarAug 13 02:08
fewaMicrosoft is behaving just like Disney didAug 13 02:08
fewaits about creating a barrier of entryAug 13 02:08
oiaohmIf you cannot remove patents.  Use them.Aug 13 02:08
seller_liarOIN is not goodAug 13 02:08
oiaohmThat is the idea of IBM and OIN.Aug 13 02:08
shreddarNot the ones with the patent they'll dine fine. Also companys who can afford to pay royalties and accuire companies will be living largeAug 13 02:08
shreddarThe sad truth is that the main victim of patents are the consumersAug 13 02:09
seller_liarOIN must be only a short term thingAug 13 02:09
seller_liarwhile soft patents are not deestroyedAug 13 02:09
fewashreddar, very, very trueAug 13 02:09
seller_liarthe solutionAug 13 02:09
oiaohmWhen every major company is a member of OIN only trolls will be left out side so causing companies to call for software patents to be removed.Aug 13 02:10
seller_liarDoes not buy apple products,Aug 13 02:10
seller_liarIBM productsAug 13 02:10
oiaohmBasically long term game seller_liarAug 13 02:10
seller_liarMicrosoft productsAug 13 02:10
oiaohmIBM allows all its patents to be used by open source.Aug 13 02:10
seller_liarthese companies are lobbying in favor to soft patentsAug 13 02:10
seller_liaroiaohm: but soft patents is not goodAug 13 02:10
oiaohmIBM reason for lobbying is different to MS.Aug 13 02:11
seller_liarIBM is not our master to decide what or not what to doAug 13 02:11
oiaohmIts a ill wind that brings no good seller_liarAug 13 02:11
shreddarOIN could easily be used to block new entrance in the software business. Like the MPAA blocks independents from becoming the next FOX or Universal.Aug 13 02:11
oiaohmOIN is doing what Ms though they could do with software patents.Aug 13 02:12
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oiaohmIts really following the plan MS layed out to destroy open source with patents.Aug 13 02:12
oiaohmJust because you can plan to do something dont mean others cannot mirror you plan and use it against you.Aug 13 02:13
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oiaohmBig thing for ibm is hardware patents.Aug 13 02:16
oiaohmIf ibm can cause the software patent system to stuff up they have a case to review the hardware patent setup.Aug 13 02:17
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shreddarpatents are a way to make money on products without actually make them.Aug 13 02:19
shreddarIf you come up with the idea of VR spores and pantent it you won't have to acctually invest in product development, market research, and advertising. Just pantent and wait for some other company to do it and tell them to pay you a royalty.Aug 13 02:22
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Ziggyfishhttp://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,28348,25922744-5014239,00.htmlAug 13 02:27
ZiggyfishinterestingAug 13 02:27
shreddarGoogle Opt Out Feature Lets Users Protect Privacy By Moving To Remote VillageAug 13 02:27
shreddarhttp://www.theonion.com/content/video/google_opt_out_feature_lets_users?utm_source=navAug 13 02:28
shreddarIt's funnyAug 13 02:28
ZiggyfishMicrosoft to appeal court ban on Word salesAug 13 02:28
shreddarI kinda hope that they defense is that all software patents are invalid.Aug 13 02:31
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fewajust like in Apple v. MicrosoftAug 13 02:44
tessierYou guys see that thing today about Microsoft being enjoined from selling Word in 60 days?Aug 13 03:14
tessierFunny thing is I bet this won't change their opinion of software patents on bit.Aug 13 03:15
ZiggyfishI just find it a bit ironic that they have wasted so much money on OOXML, and now it can't be used. (At least ODF is safe, or is it?)Aug 13 03:17
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shreddarNokia's Linux strategy broadens with upcoming Maemo 5 deviceAug 13 03:36
shreddarhttp://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/08/nokias-linux-strategy-broadens-with-upcoming-maemo-5-device.arsAug 13 03:37
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cubezzzthis journalist is saying windows runs on 95% of the world's computersAug 13 04:23
cubezzzI don't think it's that highAug 13 04:23
Ziggyfishcubezzz, he must work for microsoft?Aug 13 04:38
cubezzzno way to tellAug 13 04:43
cubezzz89.6% according to another sourceAug 13 04:44
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fewanumber is obviously wrongAug 13 05:15
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neighborleehttp://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10308013-75.htmlAug 13 07:03
neighborleeoh the ironyAug 13 07:06
Ziggyfishit looks like the ODF doesn't infringe on the patent.Aug 13 07:08
neighborleeI was also wonderingAug 13 07:08
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schestowitzChamber Sees Reform as an Attack on Free Enterprise < http://www.prwatch.org/node/8494 >Aug 13 07:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another group of lobbyists that changes the climate and might as well take us to extinction: http://ping.fm/KL8aNAug 13 08:00
schestowitzGoogle Puts the World at the Tip of Painter's Brush http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=8295043&page=1Aug 13 08:06
schestowitzDamn those Windows zombiesAug 13 08:16
schestowitzIn one domain I have like 2000 visits a day from Windows zombiesAug 13 08:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Time to take Windows off the Internet. In one site, zombies make up like 98% of the traffic and I need to pay extra for bandwidth becaus ...Aug 13 08:18
MinceRdid you know that 92.68% of all statistics are made up on the spot?Aug 13 08:24
MinceR:>Aug 13 08:24
schestowitzAll generalisations are false except this one.Aug 13 08:27
schestowitzOne Hundred Paper Cuts Round 6 Progress Report < http://davidsiegel.org/100papercuts-round6/  > Calling it paper cuts is bad PR from CanonicalAug 13 08:29
schestowitzBug=goreAug 13 08:29
schestowitzUbuntu migration support services - A move long overdue. < http://sinaisix.blogspot.com/2009/08/ubuntu-migration-support-services-move.html > "Lets face it, Windows has a superior user support than Linux." What the heck is user support? I think he means support from some person on the phone.Aug 13 08:31
schestowitzomg hypephone !! http://blogs.opennms.org/?p=1066Aug 13 08:32
schestowitzAn ignorant 'article' talks about ignorance. http://techie-buzz.com/linux-tips/linux-ignorance-so-not-bliss.htmlAug 13 08:33
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schestowitzUbuntu: The Family Sedan of the Linux World. http://jaysonrowe.com/2009/08/11/ubuntu-the-family-sedan-of-the-linux-world/Aug 13 08:41
schestowitzThese people forget something: "For those who are unfamiliar with the term "Open Source," firstly let me explain a bit more what this is about. In the 90s, the IT community started to show increased interest in freely shared software." http://www.industryweek.com/articles/the_power_of_open_source_19742.aspx?SectionID=4Aug 13 08:43
schestowitzThey always ignore Free/libre softwareAug 13 08:43
schestowitzAs if time began when Linus came from Finland or ESR escaped FSAug 13 08:43
schestowitz"Debian: contempt for "end user" values has to stop!" http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/debian_contempt_end_user_values_has_stopAug 13 08:46
schestowitzLots of rants have come from FSM recentlyAug 13 08:46
schestowitzhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=22620 "If the attendance at the opening keynote for OpenSource World (formerly known as LinuxWorld) serves as a barometer for anything to do with the economy, the tech industry or even trade shows, things are not looking good."Aug 13 08:49
schestowitzWow!!! "Cloud"...Aug 13 08:50
schestowitzIt figuresAug 13 08:50
schestowitzPeople don't even know what the heck it us..Aug 13 08:50
schestowitz"CloudWorld"..... awwwwwwwwww :-)Aug 13 08:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Story of Migration to GNU/Linux and Why Apple is Rejected http://ping.fm/PddsLAug 13 09:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Technical School changes to Ubuntu and saves Millions http://ping.fm/sOzUwAug 13 09:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Collection of Linux Graffiti Sightings http://ping.fm/c0bCnAug 13 09:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Choice Can Mean More Than One Distribution at the Same Time http://ping.fm/bLjSpAug 13 09:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linus Torvalds is Still Coding http://ping.fm/FdkTLAug 13 09:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Online Banking Better Done with GNU/Linux on the Desktop http://ping.fm/V1gUMAug 13 09:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Call for Web Sites to Provide GNU/Linux Comparisons http://ping.fm/2Kn3ZAug 13 09:19
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.3 Claims 2,000 New Features http://ping.fm/4T1JVAug 13 09:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reviews of SAM Linux 2009 and Arch Linux http://ping.fm/YDT95 http://ping.fm/C4kshAug 13 09:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox is Looking Test Pilots http://ping.fm/IkMXkAug 13 09:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Proprietary DVRs Spy on Viewers http://ping.fm/gwCpuAug 13 09:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Censorship on the Web (by Jailing Blogger) http://ping.fm/sb9zDAug 13 09:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pharmaceutical Cartel Uses Patents to Increase Deaths http://ping.fm/AoJexAug 13 09:57
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schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neMEo8ZrwuI&feature=relatedAug 13 10:57
amarsh04schestowitz, I submitted a comment to the free software magazine article (awaiting moderation) - the author was unaware of snapshot.debian.net, but I agreed with some of his pointsAug 13 11:12
schestowitzI think they rarely replyAug 13 11:13
schestowitzbalzac wrote for them a few timeAug 13 11:13
schestowitzbalzac wrote for them a few timesAug 13 11:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Type of Ownership of Mathematics and Human Life http://ping.fm/CHEYrAug 13 11:24
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and Friends Want to Add More Bugs to OOXML http://ping.fm/EBzRhAug 13 11:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell Defends GNU/Linux Sub-notebooks, Dismisses Microsoft’s FUD http://ping.fm/tPcMFAug 13 12:28
schestowitzIs this sqlitesharp? http://trac.panicode.com/bug/browser/SQLiteSharp?rev=2230&order=size&desc=1Aug 13 12:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Sqlite Sharp Can Harm GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/Yt48dAug 13 13:07
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatAug 13 13:18
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatAug 13 13:18
*#boycottnovell :You need to be a channel operator to do thatAug 13 13:18
>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitzAug 13 13:18
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzAug 13 13:18
*schestowitz removes ban on *!*=DaemonFC@*.hsd1.in.comcast.netAug 13 13:18
*schestowitz removes ban on *!*@173-10-126-202-BusName-Washington.hfc.comcastbusiness.netAug 13 13:19
Diablo-D3heh, you finally got tired of him?Aug 13 13:19
MinceRhe didAug 13 13:22
MinceRso he opped meAug 13 13:22
MinceR:>Aug 13 13:22
MinceRbut it looks like we're back for more punishment :>Aug 13 13:22
schestowitzHehe.Aug 13 13:34
schestowitzHe provokes on purposeAug 13 13:34
MinceRdon't let him.Aug 13 13:35
MinceRif he can't talk, he can't provoke.Aug 13 13:35
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzAug 13 13:38
schestowitzbblAug 13 13:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Vulnerable to Latest “Critical” Flaws http://ping.fm/XZImAAug 13 13:38
oiaohmThis is being light today.Aug 13 14:22
twitterSchestowitz, watch out for the  Kundra story.  It seems his masters degree was found at another university.  Dvorak has changed his story and the quote you used is gone.  Looks like a lot of hatchet jobs are out for a guy who likes Google Docs for government.Aug 13 14:36
twitterhttp://www.dvorak.org/blog/2009/08/12/special-report-is-us-chief-information-officer-cio-vivek-kundra-a-phony/Aug 13 14:36
Diablo-D3http://www.grabup.com/uploads/b1ee8658b30ba5f69986dfeed4c3246d.png?directAug 13 14:38
twitterWho is Ryan?Aug 13 14:44
MinceRIdiotFCAug 13 14:45
MinceRat least he's a Ryan.Aug 13 14:46
twitterhmph.Aug 13 14:58
twitterhttp://slashdot.org/submission/1055145/Windows-7-Security-Woes-and-the-M-RTM-LieAug 13 14:58
twitterVista 7 Failure Log is updated http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/215957Aug 13 14:59
oiaohmYou missed a bit Windows 7 including XP so it has compadiblity with past applications twitter.  Yet it does not really work for a lot of applications twitterAug 13 15:03
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EruaranNew network manager for kde is a step in the right directionAug 13 16:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "2 Brothers on the 4th floor - Dreams (Will come alive) 1994" ♫ http://blip.fm/~bn03eAug 13 16:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "2 Brothers On The 4th Floor - Living In Cyberspace" ♫ http://blip.fm/~bn0h5Aug 13 17:00
schestowitzImportant Reminder: Your Innovations Are Not Immortal < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090808/1921155815.shtml >Aug 13 17:08
schestowitzEruaran: I remember some complaints about it in 4.0Aug 13 17:08
schestowitzKDE 4.0 should have been called develop preview or somehtingAug 13 17:08
schestowitzThey had a marketing gaffe, which is a shame cause it's a great new environment that could capture more skepticsAug 13 17:09
schestowitz[and retain Linus]Aug 13 17:09
schestowitzDo Hourly Employees Even Make Sense Any More? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090811/0229535839.shtml >Aug 13 17:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Asda "Happy Star" potato shapes are bloody hard to tessellate in an oven dish!Aug 13 17:14
neighborleeisnt' it wonderful, how stargate adopts silverlight..which is at version 3, while moonlight struggles at v2alpha ?Aug 13 17:21
schestowitzStephen Hawking both British and not dead < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/12/hawking_british_and_alive/ >Aug 13 17:21
neighborleeyup I heard on cnn last nightAug 13 17:21
schestowitzneighborlee: part of the plan, BUTAug 13 17:21
schestowitzI'\m not worriedAug 13 17:21
schestowitzSilver Lie is dyingAug 13 17:21
neighborleeme either reallyAug 13 17:21
neighborleegosh I Hope soAug 13 17:22
schestowitzI swear to you it makes no headlinesAug 13 17:22
neighborleeI was really angry seeing stargate support it..but hey...thats poltiics for yaAug 13 17:22
schestowitzIt'll leave a trail of stupid sitesAug 13 17:22
schestowitzLike.MAX filesAug 13 17:22
schestowitzMicrosoft is general is not in good shapeAug 13 17:23
neighborleeand I really admire stargate/atlantis series....as much as that, I refused to downoad silverlight pluginAug 13 17:23
schestowitzTHey try to spread it but with little visible outputAug 13 17:23
neighborleeill deny my temptation 100% on that front ;)Aug 13 17:23
schestowitzThey still PAY to get 'customers'Aug 13 17:23
schestowitzBetter not to mentiont itAug 13 17:23
schestowitzI stopped mentioning it in BNAug 13 17:23
schestowitzneighborlee: that's US TVAug 13 17:23
neighborlee:(Aug 13 17:24
schestowitzI think Italian TV fell for it too, but not much moreAug 13 17:24
neighborleeah icAug 13 17:24
schestowitzThat's the Microsoft-oriented worldAug 13 17:24
schestowitzThe UK uses FlashAug 13 17:24
neighborleeany word on if flash is workingon something similar..flex ?Aug 13 17:24
schestowitzI can't think of a place to find Silver Lie hereAug 13 17:24
neighborleehm icAug 13 17:24
neighborleeinteresting..Aug 13 17:24
schestowitzAnd Europe has too much Linux to permit Silver LieAug 13 17:24
neighborleego UKAug 13 17:24
neighborleethe UK, that would kill hawkings ..lol what a jokeAug 13 17:24
schestowitzActually, Ryan Air is the only UK-based company which I know uses SIlver LieAug 13 17:25
neighborleeits embarrasing at times like this to be in america I tell ya..astonishing<<Aug 13 17:25
schestowitzneighborlee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRbByoKqFgQAug 13 17:25
schestowitzGood videoAug 13 17:25
neighborleegrassley really irritated me yesterday..im FROM iowa, and he goes and says heatlh care reform will KILL seniorsAug 13 17:25
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/01/ryanair-closes-the-web/Aug 13 17:25
neighborleeoutrageous..Aug 13 17:25
neighborleehmAug 13 17:26
schestowitzgrassley stood up to the VOleAug 13 17:26
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schestowitzThat's how I know himAug 13 17:26
neighborleeVOle?Aug 13 17:26
schestowitzMicrosoft to Grassley re Abramoff Visas: STFU <  http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/05/abramoff-visas-ms-defense/ >Aug 13 17:26
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoleAug 13 17:26
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vole_%28Star_Trek%29#Cardassian_voleAug 13 17:27
schestowitzThis is the Microsoft VOle originAug 13 17:27
schestowitzINQirer slangAug 13 17:27
neighborleeoh icAug 13 17:28
schestowitzXen-trix - no mention of Linux. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/23/citrix_microsoft_server_virt/Aug 13 17:28
neighborleeyeah well, I guess he lost her nerve, when it came to no doubt money from heatlh care inudstryAug 13 17:28
schestowitzSold out to the Vole :-)Aug 13 17:28
neighborleelolAug 13 17:28
schestowitzThey can't be anything to everyoneAug 13 17:28
schestowitzThey can only fool people and double-speak to give the illusion they serve all sidesAug 13 17:29
schestowitzThey are funded by companies in one way or anotherAug 13 17:29
neighborleehis mistake was thinking people are so dumb that they dont notice, or keep upAug 13 17:29
schestowitzSo conflicts of interets, .lobbying and brainwash take over politicsAug 13 17:29
neighborleeof courseAug 13 17:29
neighborleeas always..status-quoAug 13 17:29
neighborleeuntil obama ;)Aug 13 17:29
schestowitzUnless you're Stalin rt somethingAug 13 17:29
neighborleeeelkAug 13 17:30
neighborleeeekAug 13 17:30
schestowitzObama is not popular Aug 13 17:30
schestowitzNot surprisingAug 13 17:30
neighborleewellAug 13 17:30
schestowitzMany death threats, I've learnedAug 13 17:30
schestowitzHe's popular among the liberal crowd, sureAug 13 17:30
neighborleeyes,,rich want to keep their care,,so much so they are preyed on by heatlh care industry to scare themAug 13 17:30
neighborleetypicalAug 13 17:30
schestowitzBut that's a minority in an increasingly frustrated countryAug 13 17:30
schestowitzCrime is rising hereAug 13 17:30
schestowitzObviously, due to povertyAug 13 17:30
schestowitzDon't worry about those poor old rich people... they have their second  condo down in FLAug 13 17:31
neighborleewell..something will pass, whether health industry wants it or jnotAug 13 17:31
neighborleenotAug 13 17:31
neighborleeand im sure its going to cause a tidal wave of some sortAug 13 17:31
neighborleeoh well-life will go onAug 13 17:31
neighborlee:)Aug 13 17:31
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/12/palm_pre_privacy_concerns/Aug 13 17:31
schestowitz^many companies would do thisAug 13 17:32
schestowitzCarriers do tooAug 13 17:32
neighborleemaybe those militia will move to alaska orsomething to be with palin ;)(Aug 13 17:32
neighborleeand shoot wolves all dayAug 13 17:32
neighborleeo_0Aug 13 17:32
schestowitzHeh.Aug 13 17:32
schestowitzMilitiaAug 13 17:32
schestowitzScary place to be, eh?Aug 13 17:32
neighborleequiteAug 13 17:32
schestowitzMilitary within a militant countryAug 13 17:32
schestowitzThat's what happens when military-grade weapons are distributed like toyzAug 13 17:33
neighborleeof courseAug 13 17:33
schestowitzI was thinking today....Aug 13 17:33
schestowitzHow secure are nuclear weapon triggers..?Aug 13 17:33
neighborleegood questoinAug 13 17:33
neighborleeive often wonderedAug 13 17:33
schestowitzLike... if there's some crazy submatine commander, can he launch?Aug 13 17:33
neighborleehehAug 13 17:33
neighborleeso far so goodAug 13 17:33
schestowitzOr is there need for some remote digital auth from the white house?Aug 13 17:33
neighborleebut yeah--Aug 13 17:34
schestowitzCause it almost happened 30 years agoAug 13 17:34
schestowitzFull nuclear exchangeAug 13 17:34
neighborleeyesAug 13 17:34
schestowitzNuclear issues are greater than environmental ones, IMHOAug 13 17:34
neighborleeban em..they pollute anyway :)Aug 13 17:34
schestowitzIt doesn't even take a world warAug 13 17:34
schestowitzIt's enough for someone to hijack some weapon from a plant and detonate it locallyAug 13 17:34
neighborleejust dont tell N korea ;))Aug 13 17:34
neighborleeEEKAug 13 17:34
schestowitzThe radiation alone would poison the surroundings for decadesAug 13 17:35
neighborleeyupAug 13 17:35
schestowitzNot to mention effect on the atmosphereAug 13 17:35
neighborleewell we're damaged as it isAug 13 17:35
neighborleehole in ozone ;(Aug 13 17:35
schestowitzMaybe I just watched too many astronomy videos, I don't knowAug 13 17:35
schestowitzActivism against nuclear weasponsAug 13 17:35
neighborleewaitAug 13 17:35
neighborleenot ozone so much...radiation belt I thinkAug 13 17:35
schestowitzour own advacement is making us ready for extictionsAug 13 17:35
schestowitzAnd many other animals too, I worry about thisAug 13 17:36
neighborleepolar bearsAug 13 17:36
schestowitzNucelar weapons are not even high-tech. They predate primitive computersAug 13 17:36
neighborleeI feel so bad for themAug 13 17:36
schestowitzWas it Project manhattan?Aug 13 17:36
neighborleethey are at our mercy ;(Aug 13 17:36
neighborleedunnoAug 13 17:36
schestowitzWhich was about getting the stuff before the germans?Aug 13 17:36
schestowitzImagine if the Germans had it first.Aug 13 17:36
neighborleeshrugAug 13 17:36
neighborleeyeahAug 13 17:37
schestowitzDidn you watch documenatries about the polar bears?Aug 13 17:37
neighborleeo_0Aug 13 17:37
schestowitzI watched one last monthAug 13 17:37
neighborleelong ago yesAug 13 17:37
neighborleethats why it bothers meAug 13 17:37
schestowitzThey dramatise it, but nonetheless it's a real issueAug 13 17:37
neighborleeamoung other reasonsAug 13 17:37
schestowitzThere's drift nets tooAug 13 17:37
neighborleeyesAug 13 17:37
schestowitzWIping up the ocean for profitAug 13 17:37
neighborleeaffects fish tooAug 13 17:37
schestowitzIt's prohibitedAug 13 17:37
neighborleeyesAug 13 17:37
neighborleeand the poor whalesAug 13 17:37
schestowitzThey spread bounders in he oceans now cause it's hard to policeAug 13 17:37
neighborleemankinds arrogance is without end atmAug 13 17:37
neighborleethe joke is on us though...if we dont stopAug 13 17:38
schestowitzI guess we can scoop up and eliminate all fauna before our own run for foodAug 13 17:38
neighborlee:)Aug 13 17:38
schestowitzOne frantic pursuit for foodAug 13 17:38
neighborleeeekAug 13 17:38
schestowitzAnd energy is needed to produce food tooAug 13 17:38
neighborleeoh btwAug 13 17:38
schestowitzIt's like the bubble, you know\?Aug 13 17:38
schestowitzHere's how I see it:Aug 13 17:38
schestowitzHousing bubbleAug 13 17:38
neighborleedid you hear about algea energ ;)Aug 13 17:38
neighborleeenergy >Aug 13 17:38
schestowitzAssume input  (loans repaid) until it's goneAug 13 17:39
schestowitzIn the food chain it's simiarAug 13 17:39
schestowitzAssume available of food, grow popluation based on flawed assumptionAug 13 17:39
schestowitzIt's like bad debtAug 13 17:39
neighborleeyeah well..our lasting legacy ;)Aug 13 17:39
schestowitzThen there's fossil fuel, which is finite and running outAug 13 17:39
schestowitzThat too is a bubbleAug 13 17:39
neighborleeto be stewards...has long been forgotten by someAug 13 17:40
schestowitzAlgae energy?Aug 13 17:40
neighborleethankfully, not by allAug 13 17:40
schestowitzhow much algae is there?Aug 13 17:40
neighborleetonsAug 13 17:40
schestowitzWhat would the fish eat?Aug 13 17:40
schestowitzWhat happens to water life?Aug 13 17:40
neighborleeits being  made in plantsAug 13 17:40
neighborleeexperimental atm I thinkAug 13 17:40
neighborleeheard about it on hist channelI think last monthAug 13 17:40
schestowitzCorn and biofuels have an isueAug 13 17:41
schestowitzTHey need fossil fuel to be made operaitonalAug 13 17:41
neighborleehttp://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/04/01/algae.oil/index.htmlAug 13 17:41
schestowitzSo the trap is circular and the same goes for wind powerAug 13 17:41
neighborleethis is green fuel :)Aug 13 17:41
schestowitzWHat's with the Polar Bears and Whales making all the headlines? Oh, and panda bears.Aug 13 17:42
schestowitzI guess they're just large of cuteAug 13 17:42
schestowitzThus uniqueAug 13 17:42
schestowitzNot many people mind extinction of sharksAug 13 17:42
schestowitzBiggest fishAug 13 17:42
neighborleewellAug 13 17:42
neighborleesharks can swim where they need to....already in water and rather well adapted.sof ar anywayAug 13 17:42
neighborleepolar bears cute yes..but survive not so sureAug 13 17:43
neighborleeyou've seen the specials, so you get itAug 13 17:43
neighborleebut they too  need protecting yesAug 13 17:43
schestowitzThere have been many extinctions in the past 100 yearsAug 13 17:43
neighborleeyeahAug 13 17:44
schestowitzIn fact, 99% of the Earth's specific are already extinctAug 13 17:44
schestowitz*speciesAug 13 17:44
schestowitzOr 98%, I don't rememberAug 13 17:44
schestowitzSo we might be no more special than the dinosaursAug 13 17:44
neighborleewell ,,as our global weather is COMPlex and we dont get it yet..so is the animal ecosystemAug 13 17:44
neighborleea few things out of order..and bamAug 13 17:44
schestowitzBam?Aug 13 17:45
neighborleeshuts downAug 13 17:45
schestowitzMeteors don't hit Earth quite so oftenAug 13 17:45
schestowitzNot on the scale of lifeAug 13 17:45
neighborleerightAug 13 17:45
schestowitzMaybe some oceans were hit by them like 13k years agoAug 13 17:45
neighborleemariana trench maybe ;))lolAug 13 17:45
schestowitzNokia exec denies Symbian Maemo swap claim < http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/08/13/nokia_denies_maemo/ >Aug 13 17:46
schestowitzNokia goes to bed with Microsoft as well, for OfficeAug 13 17:46
schestowitzMoney-grabbing movesAug 13 17:46
neighborleehmAug 13 17:47
neighborleemabye dangerous..xml suit LOLAug 13 17:47
neighborleehmm did you hear about the new way  of getting clean water..I hope its the real thing and that it helps many in needAug 13 17:47
neighborleeplastic bottle with pump,,etc.Aug 13 17:48
neighborleewhich can be another issue..plastic in oceans is also a problem ;0Aug 13 17:48
neighborleeone thing for sure..humanity will stay busy solving these things ;)))Aug 13 17:48
neighborleeif we live long enough ;))hehAug 13 17:48
neighborleebrbAug 13 17:48
schestowitzWater must be getting worse in qualityAug 13 17:50
schestowitzMore contaminated as the cycles go own. Purification might be needed, so where will the waste go?Aug 13 17:51
schestowitzThe corrupt publisher goes away.... "Business publisher Reed Elsevier is outsourcing its IT support staff. Their jobs will go to HCL Technologies, a leading Indian offshorer. "< http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/13/reed_it_job_cuts/ >Aug 13 17:51
cubezzzmicrosoft probably will try to put windows on every electronic device ever made, but people knowledgeable enough will simply reprogram things the way they likeAug 13 17:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google's changes are coming to SERPs. http://ping.fm/P5ahGAug 13 17:53
cubezzzI suppose the real power lies with the chip manufacturersAug 13 17:55
schestowitzSmartphone Sales Up 27% < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/13/smartphone-sales-up-27 > THis doesn't tell the full story about phones and PDAsAug 13 17:56
schestowitzIt's like saying that sales of Blue-Ray increase (while DVD declineS)Aug 13 17:57
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, I have some Comes exhibits where you can vividly see how worried Microsoft is about Linux in this area of gagdgetsAug 13 17:58
schestowitzPeople think of computers as this thing on their desk with teletubby wallpaperAug 13 17:58
schestowitzBut most computers are not desktopsAug 13 17:58
schestowitzOnly about 2% of them, AFAIKAug 13 17:58
cubezzzI would have thought the percentage would be much higherAug 13 17:59
schestowitzEven some keyboards are powered by Linux nowAug 13 17:59
schestowitzEvery little microchip runs something, maybe on ROMAug 13 17:59
schestowitzWindows is a poor piece of code and expensive tooAug 13 18:00
schestowitzI thought it would be lowerAug 13 18:00
schestowitzBut given that ARM alone made 10 billion chips, you get the picture sooner or laterAug 13 18:01
schestowitzMany TVs -- as they gets smarter -- run LinuxAug 13 18:01
cubezzzwhich TV runs Linux?Aug 13 18:02
schestowitzSony for startersAug 13 18:02
schestowitzPimp your Linux satellite box & get TV on your PC! http://www.techradar.com/news/television/pimp-your-linux-satellite-box-get-tv-on-your-pc--492020Aug 13 18:02
schestowitzTaming a power-sucking Linux TV http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3462011464.html?kc=rssAug 13 18:03
schestowitzWiFi digital camera runs Linux http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2881537833.html?kc=rssAug 13 18:03
schestowitzLinux fast-boot scheme targets TVs http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8282586707.htmlAug 13 18:04
schestowitzDon't kill your television--study it! http://www.opensource.org/node/371Aug 13 18:04
cubezzzthat could be a nice selling point for Linux fansAug 13 18:04
schestowitzLinux device links TVs to Internet videos http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8497272379.html?kc=rssAug 13 18:04
schestowitzEmbedded Linux has more friends than you may know http://www.embedded.com/columns/guest/207602734Aug 13 18:04
schestowitzCould be advertised by Sony wit Tux logo on each TVAug 13 18:04
schestowitzThen people would recognize the 'Lunix thing' from TVAug 13 18:05
schestowitzBut some of them use WInd River(Intel)/MontaVistaAug 13 18:05
schestowitzSo it's a little proprietary in some casesAug 13 18:05
schestowitzHahhaa: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/13/on2-shareholders-file-lawsuits-to-stop-google-deal (On2 Shareholders File Lawsuits To Stop Google\)Aug 13 18:06
schestowitzVery bad PR for GoogleAug 13 18:06
schestowitzBuzzwords like "cloud" Are a Disease(R) http://searchcio.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid182_gci1364027,00.htmlAug 13 18:10
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yuhongMy opinion of BN is that though I don't agree with everything said on it, especially on Windows, I do like it, especially for exposing MS's Linux shenanigans.Aug 13 18:13
yuhongAs well as the astroturfing.Aug 13 18:14
yuhongWhich are bad things whether you like Windows or not.Aug 13 18:14
cubezzzin North America, I can't seem to find linux based stuff in stores, like a linux based DVR, PDA, etcAug 13 18:15
schestowitzyuhong: which points do you disagree with?Aug 13 18:16
schestowitzIf you raise an issue this helps improveAug 13 18:16
yuhongMostly I don't agree with all of the Windows related parts.Aug 13 18:16
schestowitzcubezzz: I doubt it. Linux is in los o f stuffAug 13 18:16
schestowitzTomTom, TiVo....Aug 13 18:17
yuhongYep.Aug 13 18:17
cubezzzTiVo is bad though...Aug 13 18:17
schestowitzMoments ago I found this out [new to me!!]Aug 13 18:17
schestowitzhttp://www.techradar.com/news/computing/realdvd-software-still-banned-from-sale-624897Aug 13 18:17
schestowitz"Called Facet, it is a hardware version of RealDVD which is Linux-based and has the capacity to hold around 70 DVDs digitally."Aug 13 18:17
schestowitzThey never ever advetised this as LinuxAug 13 18:17
schestowitzMany DVRs now run Linux (the kernel)Aug 13 18:17
yuhongI mean, some of the Windows articles.Aug 13 18:17
yuhongLook at my comments to this one:Aug 13 18:18
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/08/13/vista-7-rtm-was-vulnerable/Aug 13 18:18
schestowitzAutoTrader web site switches to Linux http://www.computing.co.uk/computing/news/2247736/autotrader-web-site-upgradesAug 13 18:18
cubezzzI'd love a linux based DVRAug 13 18:18
schestowitzThere are at least 3 in the USAug 13 18:18
schestowitzCan't recall whichAug 13 18:18
schestowitzCause it's American providersAug 13 18:18
schestowitzYou'd be surprised how many sil;ently run LinuxAug 13 18:19
yuhongYep, Linux is so common you are often running it without realizing it.Aug 13 18:19
cubezzzright, but I'd rather know it's got linux embedded before I buyAug 13 18:20
schestowitzIt's not a freedom enabler quiteAug 13 18:20
schestowitzThat's where I kind of lose interests sometimesAug 13 18:20
schestowitzId on't sacrifice to just help yet another OS be packed up so closely.Aug 13 18:20
schestowitzThat achieves little and almost nothingAug 13 18:20
schestowitzBut it helps us cause it supports LinuxAug 13 18:21
schestowitzIt puts money in the FoundationAug 13 18:21
cubezzzok, I'll give a good example of what I'd like to get...Aug 13 18:21
schestowitzWhich gives up better h/d support a each iterationAug 13 18:21
cubezzzsome kind of dvd player that runs mplayerAug 13 18:21
cubezzzcan handle mkv filesAug 13 18:21
schestowitzLook at NeurosAug 13 18:21
schestowitzOr build your LinuxMCE boxAug 13 18:22
yuhongAnyway, back to my original questionAug 13 18:25
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yuhongI also remember talking about Linux boot-time rootkits on IRC.Aug 13 18:26
yuhongIt was in response to this article on BN.Aug 13 18:27
yuhonghttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/23/vista-7-cannot-be-fixed/Aug 13 18:27
schestowitzKeep our most intimate details off the internet < http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/lizhunt/6012187/Keep-our-most-intimate-details-off-the-internet.html >Aug 13 18:27
schestowitzyuhong: yes, but the trick was obvious to seeAug 13 18:27
schestowitzThe flaws were still there, they just fixed them and them pretended it was never an issue to begin withAug 13 18:28
yuhongI am posting more comments on this article right now.Aug 13 18:31
yuhongBTW, take a look at the links to the articles on XP's first patches for a flashback.Aug 13 18:33
schestowitzEruaran: Kogan drops 10-inch Linux netbook price to $399 < http://www.techworld.com.au/article/314773/kogan_drops_10-inch_linux_netbook_price_399 >Aug 13 18:35
schestowitzMicrosoft advertised XP as very secure, yuhong Aug 13 18:36
schestowitzNokia swings both ways - Microsoft, Linux < http://www.merinews.com/article/nokia-swings-both-ways---microsoft-linux/15781519.shtml > Same ol, same ol. Since 2006/7Aug 13 18:37
yuhongYep.Aug 13 18:38
yuhongUnfortunately, back in 2001, /GS, /SAFESEH, and the secure string copy functions. and the other buffer overflow protection stuff that exists on today's MS compilers did not exist.Aug 13 18:39
yuhongAnd yes, I remember this case being on a top ten list.Aug 13 18:41
cubezzzso is Vista more secure than XP?Aug 13 18:42
cubezzzI didn't find XP to be very "secure"Aug 13 18:43
yuhongCertainly not.Aug 13 18:43
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yuhongWell, I have several articles where one of the new stuff I just mentioned prevented a security vulnerablityAug 13 18:43
yuhonghttp://blogs.msdn.com/michael_howard/archive/2004/05/23/139987.aspxAug 13 18:44
yuhonghttp://blogs.msdn.com/michael_howard/archive/2007/01/10/why-windows-vista-is-unaffected-by-the-vml-bug.aspxAug 13 18:45
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yuhongIf you want more, search MS's security blogs.Aug 13 18:46
DaemonFChttp://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/08/13/microsoft-windows-7-cable-television-and-the-so-called-playready-drm-scam/Aug 13 18:47
DaemonFCthis pisses me offAug 13 18:47
schestowitzyuhong: I've replied to you. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/08/13/vista-7-rtm-was-vulnerable/comment-page-1/#comment-72105Aug 13 18:47
yuhongThanks.Aug 13 18:47
cubezzzI'm not sure about Neuros, but it looks interestingAug 13 18:48
cubezzzmost stuff seems to be on back-orderAug 13 18:48
schestowitzDaemonFC: looks like a Vista adAug 13 18:49
DaemonFCwhat is?Aug 13 18:49
schestowitz"Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Aug 13 18:49
schestowitz    * The Windows 7 beta testing disasterAug 13 18:49
schestowitz    * Did Microsoft hire maker of nLite and vLite?Aug 13 18:49
schestowitz    * Microsoft releases emergency patch for Internet Explorer ActiveX controlAug 13 18:49
schestowitz    * Digital transition causing all kinds of grief for Windows Media Center users"Aug 13 18:49
schestowitzIt's a Windows blogAug 13 18:49
DaemonFCI write about Windows Media Center crippling cable TV channelsAug 13 18:50
DaemonFCand that's pro-Microsoft?Aug 13 18:50
DaemonFCyou're bent upAug 13 18:50
schestowitzhttp://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/microsoft-releases-gpld-linux-drivers-nothing-has-changed/ "Make no mistake about it, Microsoft still hates the GPL, Steve Ballmer still would tell you that it is cancer, and the fact is that Microsoft released the code solely due to the fact that to link into the kernel, you have to use the GPL or a compatible license."Aug 13 18:50
schestowitz"GPL 1 / MicroNovellix 0"Aug 13 18:51
DaemonFCand that's trueAug 13 18:51
schestowitzOK, I find some opposite examplesAug 13 18:51
schestowitzI should add the RSSAug 13 18:51
DaemonFCI got a kick of thatAug 13 18:51
DaemonFCWhat I want to know is why big media thinks that crippling an analog cable TV signal will work?Aug 13 18:51
DaemonFClike I can't just record it with something elseAug 13 18:52
schestowitzBest Buy “disappears” the Ubuntu box set http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/best-buy-disappears-the-ubuntu-box-set/Aug 13 18:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: your faultAug 13 18:52
schestowitzYou should avoid Vista/Vista7Aug 13 18:52
schestowitzit's a DRM hellAug 13 18:52
schestowitzLinuxMCE to the rescueAug 13 18:52
DaemonFCwell, Linux can't see the tunerAug 13 18:52
yuhongDeamonFC: Indeed, he is not saying that blog is pro-Microsoft, he says that it is a Windows blog.Aug 13 18:52
DaemonFCI've mentioned this beforeAug 13 18:53
yuhongschestowitz: Do you mean Vista/7 MCE?Aug 13 18:53
DaemonFCso I have no support for it on Linux or intentionally crippled support on WindowsAug 13 18:53
cubezzzDaemonFC, I hear that pcHDTV is pretty goodAug 13 18:53
DaemonFCfor whatever reason, VLC does not see the tuner's audio signal as a DirectSound device unless you're in XPAug 13 18:54
yuhongBecause that part of Windows indeed has a lot of DRM.Aug 13 18:54
schestowitzNice Orwellian use of the word protect there Aug 13 18:54
DaemonFCno, because Ustream occasionally mistakes the tuner card for my webcam and transmits the audio signalAug 13 18:55
schestowitzMicrosoft.... who do you protect it FROM?Aug 13 18:55
schestowitzThe customer,Aug 13 18:55
DaemonFCso it's there but VLC isn't recognizing itAug 13 18:55
yuhongReminds me of the original version of Trusted Computing.Aug 13 18:55
DaemonFCI'm trying to figure out what else can see a TV tuner signalAug 13 18:55
schestowitzApple's the sameAug 13 18:56
schestowitzThat's why BSD and Linux need a kick in the pants and more marketAug 13 18:56
schestowitzNot Tivoised eitherAug 13 18:56
DaemonFCapparently Media Player Classic can, I may try thatAug 13 18:56
DaemonFCthe stupidity of encrypting an unencrypted inputAug 13 18:57
DaemonFCit's simply staggeringAug 13 18:57
DaemonFCthey probably just figure most people won't ever know the differenceAug 13 18:58
yuhongOn the matter of Tivoization, I was thinking about making BusyBox GPLv3 as a first step.Aug 13 18:58
DaemonFChey, Media Player Classic worksAug 13 18:59
DaemonFCno Playready crapAug 13 18:59
DaemonFCyayAug 13 18:59
yuhongI am thinking of asking the BusyBox authors if they could ask for permission to use the Linux code inside the BusyBox under the GPLv3 or later.Aug 13 19:01
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yuhongAnyone else think this is a good idea?Aug 13 19:03
yuhongOn the matter of Windows, I remember your nit-picking over "Windows malware" vs "computer malware".Aug 13 19:05
yuhongYes, most malware is for Windows. But in theory, Windows, Mac, and Linux malware is all "computer malware".Aug 13 19:06
DaemonFCask those Apple users how their free copy of iWork turned out for themAug 13 19:06
DaemonFCthere's malware that's not for WindowsAug 13 19:06
MinceRyuhong: they're rarely cross-platform :>Aug 13 19:06
Will_true, but how often does non-Windows malware make the news?Aug 13 19:06
DaemonFCthere's starting to be a Mac botnet problemAug 13 19:06
yuhongYep.Aug 13 19:06
Will_It amazes me that most people (PC users) on the street adamantly believe that it is impossible for any computer to be practically immune to virusesAug 13 19:08
Xarverlinux :3Aug 13 19:08
Will_I've been called a liar for suggesting that there exists an OS that doesn't need Norton etc.Aug 13 19:08
DaemonFCit's just as possible to lay out a nasty surprise for a Linux userAug 13 19:09
cubezzzlolAug 13 19:09
DaemonFCin the form of a file system eating script in a DEB/RPM packageAug 13 19:09
Will_DaemonFC : yes, it is possible, but not likely.Aug 13 19:09
DaemonFCit's been doneAug 13 19:09
cubezzznever ran Norton on Unix System V :)Aug 13 19:09
DaemonFCI watch out what I run on any OSAug 13 19:09
DaemonFCif there's a standalone DEB/RPM, make sure you're not the first person to run it, yes? :DAug 13 19:10
DaemonFCthere you go, use other people as your antivirusAug 13 19:10
yuhongFunny, isn't it.Aug 13 19:11
Will_But considering that most people will be using vetted packages from repositories, there is a slim to none chance of encountering that.Aug 13 19:11
yuhongOf course.Aug 13 19:11
DaemonFCUbuntu Forums doesn't just lock the post and remove the link, they just delete the whole post to destroy the evidenceAug 13 19:11
Will_about what?Aug 13 19:11
yuhongBut here is the article I was talking about: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/19/msnbc-ms-manipulated-story/Aug 13 19:11
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DaemonFCwhen someone posts a bad DEB package with a file system eating script or somethingAug 13 19:12
Will_DaemonFC: Still, you are describing a situtation that a user has a less that 0.001% chance of running into, which at worst only puts them in the same position that Windows users live in all the time grabbing random things from the InternetAug 13 19:13
DaemonFCthere have also been "tutorials" that would sneak in obfuscated Python code to rm -rf /Aug 13 19:13
DaemonFCthings like thatAug 13 19:13
cubezzzdon't use packages, compile from sourceAug 13 19:14
schestowitzNo, use reposAug 13 19:14
cubezzzeven more safe :)Aug 13 19:14
DaemonFCUbuntu mainly targets new users that will just blindly paste root user commands into the terminalAug 13 19:14
DaemonFCso it's like prime hunting ground heheAug 13 19:14
Will_Usually if I can't find it in a repo, I have to compile from source because I can't find it anyway else.Aug 13 19:14
Will_But even then, we are talking very obscure job-specific software if I'm actually forced to compile from source these days.Aug 13 19:16
schestowitzThe issues was changed hereAug 13 19:16
schestowitzThe issue is not Windows users runnijng bad filesAug 13 19:16
schestowitzIt's the Microsoftransiartion of the issueAug 13 19:16
schestowitz*transformationAug 13 19:16
DaemonFChmmm, MPC supports dumping the channel I'm watching to Ogv, that's kind of neat (as well as most any format)Aug 13 19:16
schestowitzThe issue is Windows getting hijack when loading a page or just doing nothingAug 13 19:17
schestowitzSee Conficker for exampleAug 13 19:17
schestowitzYou're moving goalposts (the Microsoft apologists)Aug 13 19:17
schestowitzbrbAug 13 19:17
DaemonFCWill_: That's a nuisance btw, usually they just won't compile it over a political disagreementAug 13 19:17
DaemonFCSauerbraten is a real good exampleAug 13 19:17
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Will_I still think MS might be responsible for a lot of the general fear people associate with computers.  They make very flawed products that often require whole third-party industries to keep operational, and they constantly blame anyone but themselves (often the user) for any failures.Aug 13 19:21
Will_Not to mention the whole thing is locked up tight so that no one can poke around under the hood.Aug 13 19:22
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Will_No wonder the average person is afraid to mess around much with a computer.  They're scared they might offend some dark spirit or something.Aug 13 19:22
DaemonFCI'm not interested in having any kind of DRM restrictions on any media I use, even one channel is an eyesoreAug 13 19:23
schestowitzNew Novell video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyLJZKuKMvwAug 13 19:24
Will_To me, DRM is a clear sign that the producer doesn't want my money.  I'm happy to oblige in such cases.Aug 13 19:24
DaemonFCunfortunately it's a package dealAug 13 19:24
DaemonFCI have to take AMC to get another 20 channels I do wantAug 13 19:24
DaemonFCeven though they aren't doing anything badAug 13 19:24
schestowitzUse MiroAug 13 19:25
schestowitzDump Big TelevisionAug 13 19:25
DaemonFCtried that beforeAug 13 19:25
schestowitzThey are ancient-minded for the most partAug 13 19:25
cubezzzwell, if the only way I can get a something is by drm video then I'll get the drm video, then remove the drmAug 13 19:25
cubezzzI did that with a tennis video a few timesAug 13 19:25
DaemonFCwell, AMC doesn't come in DRM'd obviously, Windows Media Center DRMs it locallyAug 13 19:26
DaemonFCand then decrypts it to send to the monitorAug 13 19:26
cubezzzschestowitz, UHF antenna here, no cable for meAug 13 19:26
DaemonFCthat takes an incredible amount of CPU time when I can record it with other programs or just sticking the coax cable into the back of a VCR anyway :PAug 13 19:26
DaemonFCMicrosoft probably figures that they can sign deals with all the other cable TV channels, run all the other media center software over til theirs is the only one you can use, and then people will have no alternatives to accepting the DRM restrictions when they want to record somethingAug 13 19:28
DaemonFCobviously not all competing software is commercial for-profit though, and has no interest in imposing DRMAug 13 19:29
cubezzzyou should see what they say about US Cable TV on TVOntario :)Aug 13 19:31
DaemonFCthen they proceed to carry all our programs for 90% of their scheduled programmingAug 13 19:31
DaemonFCsilly CanadiansAug 13 19:31
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Will_oh, btw, I saw on the log the other day that Sci-fi (or Syfy --I can't stand the new name) is now using a little Silverlie on they SGU website.  Any guesses on how long before they drop it like NBC and the New York Times did before them?Aug 13 19:32
DaemonFCyeah, I looked at thatAug 13 19:32
XarverBlehAug 13 19:32
DaemonFCthey're using Flash for everything they can use Flash forAug 13 19:32
DaemonFCthey obviosuly can't use it to make their 3d ship tour thoughAug 13 19:33
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DaemonFCAdobe's fault really, if they had those features nobody would even bother with Silverlight, it's quite clear that Sci Fi doesn't want to use SilverlightAug 13 19:33
MinceRnot reallyAug 13 19:33
MinceRif they didn't want to use silverblight, they wouldn'tAug 13 19:34
DaemonFCif they wanted to use Silverlight, they could have done the entire site in it just as easilyAug 13 19:34
MinceRsame with trashAug 13 19:34
DaemonFCwithout paying any royalties to AdobeAug 13 19:34
MinceRthey could have even made a winblows application and make a page consisting of a single download linkAug 13 19:34
DaemonFCwhy do that?Aug 13 19:35
DaemonFCthey can add that to a page that the rest of the site doesn't even depend onAug 13 19:35
DaemonFCsame result for Linux usersAug 13 19:35
DaemonFCthey used to make Windows applications that you could download seperately though, this replaces thoseAug 13 19:36
MinceRto make the page less usable, obviouslyAug 13 19:36
DaemonFCthey used to have a CD insert with their magazine that would have neat extras and behind the scenes stuffAug 13 19:36
MinceRthat's the whole point of the trash/silverblight/java exerciseAug 13 19:36
DaemonFCI have a stack of those actuallyAug 13 19:36
MinceRand putting 345 layers of 2983479238x2309420394 transparent png-sAug 13 19:37
MinceRand spinning the cpu in 25 infinite loops in javascriptAug 13 19:37
DaemonFCI look at it this way, every proprietary Microsoft web thing eventually tanks anywayAug 13 19:37
DaemonFCall of a handful of sites use it then abandon it laterAug 13 19:37
MinceRif your website doesn't require a top-of-the-line supercomputer to scroll it at an acceptable speed then it isn't hip enoughAug 13 19:38
DaemonFCthat doesn't need a top of the line computerAug 13 19:38
MinceRand those who abandon it move on to the next fadAug 13 19:38
DaemonFCmy 5 year old laptop can scroll through it fineAug 13 19:38
MinceRi have some nice stuff to read for you >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperboleAug 13 19:39
MinceRmight come in handyAug 13 19:39
DaemonFCmost people throw out their system and buy a new one every few years anywayAug 13 19:39
DaemonFCif not more oftenAug 13 19:39
MinceRpeople shouldn't have to do that in order to read some text and see some picturesAug 13 19:39
DaemonFCthey don'tAug 13 19:39
DaemonFCeven a 10 year old computer running Windows 98 will browse through 99% of their site just fineAug 13 19:40
DaemonFCthat Silverlight thing is just a replacement for their old bonus CD that went out with the magazineAug 13 19:40
MinceRi have serious doubts about that.Aug 13 19:40
MinceRi do have a 10 year old computer running win98 around, you know.Aug 13 19:40
DaemonFCthe bonus CD needed Windows anyway, I don't see what the big deal itAug 13 19:40
DaemonFC*isAug 13 19:41
MinceReven starting the browser takes ages.Aug 13 19:41
Will_@MinceR : do you let it connect to the internet?Aug 13 19:41
MinceRusually notAug 13 19:41
MinceRit's falling apart alreadyAug 13 19:41
DaemonFCmy old Windows 98 system has a 550 Mhz K6/2 and 384 megs of RAMAug 13 19:41
DaemonFCstill runs as well as can be expectedAug 13 19:41
MinceRthe machine i'm talking about is slower than thatAug 13 19:42
MinceRdon't remember the exact specsAug 13 19:42
Will_Why not slap a lightweight Linux distro on a computer that old?Aug 13 19:42
DaemonFCI eventually swapped it out for Windows 2000 cause 98 has trouble running a lot of NT softwareAug 13 19:42
schestowitzI had WIndows 98 running on 32 mb of ram and 400mhzAug 13 19:42
schestowitzIt was SLLLOOOOWAug 13 19:42
schestowitzLaptop from 1999Aug 13 19:43
schestowitzThat was my last Windows machineAug 13 19:43
DaemonFCWindows 98 should really have a minimum of 64 megsAug 13 19:43
DaemonFCif you put in more than 512 megs, it starts getting slowerAug 13 19:43
schestowitzIt run nothing usefulAug 13 19:43
schestowitzFirefox would take half a minute to start, almostAug 13 19:43
schestowitzFirefox 1.0Aug 13 19:43
DaemonFCwell not now of course, it doesn't have proper Unicode and 9x never supported all of Win32Aug 13 19:44
schestowitzThat was in 2004 just before Linux was put on everything... never looked backAug 13 19:44
DaemonFCthe entire concept of 9x was to have a subset of Win32 ported over from NTAug 13 19:44
DaemonFCa lot of consumer software at the time still needed DOS or the Win16 API, and was too slow to run NT anywayAug 13 19:44
DaemonFCthat's where that whole 5 year misadventure came fromAug 13 19:45
DaemonFCerr consumer hardware was too slow for NT that isAug 13 19:45
DaemonFCNT was also much more strict about hardware access, you could put DirectX up to version 6 on it, but no hardware acceleration was possible, had it's own driver model too, real bitch to try to get NT 4 up and goingAug 13 19:46
MinceRWill_: the only use i had for it is driving a crappy noname scanner for which there's no linux driverAug 13 19:47
MinceRthe mustek driver brings in all-white pages insteadAug 13 19:47
DaemonFCone place I worked at still relied almost completely on NT 4 as of 2006Aug 13 19:47
MinceRapart from that, i don't really have use for that machineAug 13 19:47
MinceRi'm going to replace it and the scannerAug 13 19:47
DaemonFCthat was awful, and the machines had to be networked with XP systems in the main officeAug 13 19:47
Will_good point Mince.Aug 13 19:49
DaemonFCin many ways, getting Linux to talk to your XP network is less excruciating than getting NT 4 to, businesses are notoriously cheap and piecemeal about hardware upgrades thoughAug 13 19:49
DaemonFCyou end up getting stuck with systems getting upgraded 25% every couple years and all kinds of versions of all kinds of software to deal withAug 13 19:50
DaemonFCthey put people who have no idea about the systems they're buying beyond what the Microsoft or Red Hat or Novell people told themAug 13 19:50
DaemonFCthat's how you end up with clusterfuck...errrrrr......interop, in reality it never works like the vendor tells you it willAug 13 19:52
DaemonFCit's like buying a brand new car, being told all the systems have been checked out and double checked, and the first thing it does it break downAug 13 19:53
schestowitzn00b -> "# Why can't Ubuntu alert me when I get a new e-mail?" http://www.examiner.com/x-18153-Knoxville-Technology-Examiner~y2009m8d12-The-Frustrations-of-TechnologyAug 13 19:53
DaemonFCschestowitz: Don't go to examiner.com expecting to find anyone that knows anythingAug 13 19:54
schestowitzI know.Aug 13 19:54
DaemonFCthey let anyone write columns there it seemsAug 13 19:54
schestowitzIt's amusing.Aug 13 19:54
schestowitzSeattle-based BTW.Aug 13 19:54
schestowitzThey spread pro-Microsoft FUD, tooAug 13 19:54
schestowitzHere's the Microsoft trolls thta Katherine Noyes from ECT is ciitng: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-08-13-006-35-NW-BZ-HW-0000Aug 13 19:56
schestowitzhairyfeetAug 13 19:56
schestowitzyeah, listen to hairfeetAug 13 19:56
DaemonFCthis Media Player Classic is quite amusingAug 13 19:56
schestowitzMicrosoft Munchkins everywhereAug 13 19:57
schestowitzSLashdot, ETC/...Aug 13 19:57
schestowitzGrey responds to "hairyfeet": http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-08-13-006-35-NW-BZ-HW-0001Aug 13 19:57
DaemonFCa GPL-licensed media player that looks like the old Microsoft ActiveMovie, using FFMPEG as a back end, compiled with both GCC 4.4 and Visual Studio 2008Aug 13 19:57
schestowitzEVen Linux Today gets flooded by themAug 13 19:57
DaemonFCI'd say that the high returns, if any, were caused by the hardware configurationAug 13 19:59
DaemonFCthe Linux systems all got less RAM and a much slower CPU and video chipsetAug 13 19:59
schestowitzWhat was the name of that companies that sued Microsoft for Office?Aug 13 19:59
schestowitzFor many years, not i4iAug 13 19:59
DaemonFCi4iAug 13 19:59
schestowitzNoAug 13 19:59
schestowitzPrior to itAug 13 19:59
DaemonFCsome Canadian based patent trollAug 13 19:59
DaemonFCoh?Aug 13 20:00
schestowitzI'd have to look it upAug 13 20:00
schestowitzHard without the name thoughAug 13 20:00
schestowitzNever mindAug 13 20:00
DaemonFCwho hasn't sued them? I know Corel did at one point over WordPerfectAug 13 20:00
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DaemonFCthat ended with an MS/Corel partnershipAug 13 20:00
DaemonFCin the settlement, Microsoft dumped a whole bunch of money on Corel in exchange for dumping the Linux ports of all of Corel's softwareAug 13 20:01
DaemonFCCorel is big media/tons of DRM nowAug 13 20:02
schestowitzASP .NET fail. http://www.cbronline.com/errors/default.aspx?aspxerrorpath=/news/display.aspxAug 13 20:02
schestowitzTheir site is SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSOOOOO dodgyAug 13 20:02
schestowitzLike a quarter of the time I visit it there's a DB or server issue. Hilarious.Aug 13 20:03
DaemonFCtheir product activator is a spyware system service and their Blu Ray player software expires all your license keys if you don't pay Corel money for a renewal "subscription"Aug 13 20:03
DaemonFCI think Microsoft has inadvertantly ensured that DVD remains the standard disc formatAug 13 20:03
DaemonFCsince Blu Ray is not properly supported on any version of Windows by defaultAug 13 20:04
schestowitzRed Hat celebrates its 10-year IPO anniversary http://www.siliconindia.com/shownews/Red_Hat_celebrates_its_10year_IPO_anniversary-nid-60282.htmlAug 13 20:05
schestowitzI'm really enjoying the torrent of good news for Linux these daysAug 13 20:05
schestowitzAdoptions in Europe rises a lot as wellAug 13 20:06
schestowitzIt's harder to notice in the US, UK and AUAug 13 20:06
proteushttp://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20090813/tc_nm/us_microsoft_3 Court slaps ban on some Microsoft Word sales - another SW patent fight - bad for all of usAug 13 20:06
schestowitzproteus: same suit, no?Aug 13 20:06
schestowitzReuters late to the party?Aug 13 20:07
proteussame as?Aug 13 20:07
schestowitzI saw a report from them about it 2 days agoAug 13 20:07
schestowitzI cited it in BNAug 13 20:07
schestowitzproteus: it's from Tuesday or soAug 13 20:07
schestowitzGroklaw has the pdfsAug 13 20:07
proteussorry then. I was at OS World in SF yesterday and did not read much news :-)Aug 13 20:07
schestowitzIDG...Aug 13 20:07
schestowitzI heard it was kind of dull..Aug 13 20:08
schestowitzZDNetAug 13 20:08
DaemonFCschestowitz: I've analyzed the frame rate of a Playready crippled channel vs a non-crippled channelAug 13 20:08
schestowitzAs in, no major announcementsAug 13 20:08
proteusyup, just a tiny shadowAug 13 20:08
DaemonFC18 frames per second crippled, 30 frames per second normalAug 13 20:08
schestowitzIDG got a bad rap for their eventsAug 13 20:08
schestowitzMacWorld tooAug 13 20:08
schestowitzI think MacWorld is over tooAug 13 20:08
schestowitzNot sure..Aug 13 20:08
DaemonFCso it not only infects you with DRM, it degrades your video playback by dropping framesAug 13 20:08
DaemonFCcause it can't encrypt/decrypt in real timeAug 13 20:08
schestowitzI never had DRM encountersAug 13 20:09
schestowitzI read about it thoughAug 13 20:09
schestowitzDoesn't sound nice, I'll tell you dat !!Aug 13 20:09
proteusOSCON was better, just a month ago in San Jose, 60 miles from SF. Not sure why they did not make it few months appartAug 13 20:09
schestowitzCompression is for transmission, not obfuscation, DaemonFC Aug 13 20:09
schestowitzWaste of CPU/battsAug 13 20:10
DaemonFCyes, it quadruples your CPU useAug 13 20:10
DaemonFCand makes your feed drop over half the framesAug 13 20:10
schestowitzproteus: did you go to the OSCON partiesAug 13 20:10
DaemonFC:PAug 13 20:10
schestowitzThe FLOSS Weekly guys liked itAug 13 20:10
DaemonFCin many casesAug 13 20:10
DaemonFCschestowitz, that's why you can't disable the pause bufferAug 13 20:11
DaemonFCMicrosoft puts the live TV feed on a 4 second delay so it doesn't slow down even worse from the PlayReady crapAug 13 20:11
schestowitz"JavaScript and PHP Use Growing in Open Source, Says Black Duck ... - Earthtimes (press release)" -> "Forbidden - You don't have permission to access /articles/show/javascript-and-php-use-growing,924803.shtml on this server."Aug 13 20:11
proteusNo, no parties :-(Aug 13 20:11
schestowitzBlack Duck-proprietarisersAug 13 20:12
schestowitzThe FSF has a conference nowAug 13 20:12
schestowitzSince last year (maybe early this year actually)Aug 13 20:13
DaemonFCMPC also uses only about 1-2% of my CPU to play live TVAug 13 20:13
DaemonFCWindows Media Center uses about 5% for a normal channel and about 20% for a "PlayReady" channelAug 13 20:13
schestowitzAmong the possible attractions: RMS dancing to Soulja Boys with his laptop on. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7C6r6fG4k40Aug 13 20:13
DaemonFCoh noAug 13 20:14
DaemonFCwe replaced RMS's Ogg Vorbis with Folgers Crystals, lets see if he noticesAug 13 20:14
DaemonFC:PAug 13 20:14
schestowitzMore 'cloud' *Sigh*..... "Appko Announces Launch of Appko CRM at Open Source World/Cloud World" http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayReleaseContent.aspx?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-12-2009/0005076424&EDATE=Aug 13 20:15
schestowitzIs there any CRM s/w that's really properly FOSS?Aug 13 20:15
DaemonFCwasn't there a Sugar CRM thingAug 13 20:16
DaemonFCthat was open source, right?Aug 13 20:16
schestowitzIt's dualAug 13 20:16
schestowitzThey are mostly doing a marketing plotAug 13 20:16
DaemonFCwell, if it's licensed at your option, that doesn't hurt anything I supposeAug 13 20:16
schestowitz"Open"... "source"... 'cloud"... "SaaS"...."iiiiiiino-va-tive"Aug 13 20:16
proteusTalked to Appko at OSCON. Interesting but they never bothered to answer any emails :-(Aug 13 20:16
schestowitzI never heard of them beforeAug 13 20:17
schestowitzAnd I've watched FOSS closely for yearsAug 13 20:17
proteusthey are a startup from SJ, CA I believeAug 13 20:17
schestowitzThis usually means they either are entrants or fakersAug 13 20:17
schestowitzAhAug 13 20:17
schestowitzStartupAug 13 20:17
schestowitzOKAug 13 20:17
proteusthey sounded reasonable with good business plan. We'll seeAug 13 20:18
DaemonFC"Microsoft PlayReady Helps Expand Digital Content Economy With New Adoption for Mobile..."Aug 13 20:19
schestowitzNot surprisingly, Disinformation Week joins then anti-GPL party. http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/08/why_the_gpl_mat.html;jsessionid=K2ZLOEKEPG04PQE1GHOSKH4ATMY32JVNAug 13 20:19
DaemonFCtheir marketing for itAug 13 20:19
DaemonFCnotice how benign the press release sounds?Aug 13 20:19
schestowitzPlayDreadyAug 13 20:19
schestowitzI try to play and and I dread, and sometimes play it and I'm deadAug 13 20:20
schestowitzLast months news, in Disinformation Lastweek: Rackspace Opens Up Cloud APIs, Bindings < http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/server_virtualization/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=219200286 >Aug 13 20:21
schestowitz*month'sAug 13 20:21
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayReadyAug 13 20:22
DaemonFCheheAug 13 20:22
DaemonFClook at the last line before the contents menuAug 13 20:22
DaemonFC:)Aug 13 20:22
DaemonFChow long do you figure that will last?Aug 13 20:23
DaemonFC5 seconds, coolAug 13 20:23
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DaemonFCdamned revert botsAug 13 20:24
schestowitztwitter: "hairyfeet" from /. is now trolling LinuxToday tooAug 13 20:25
schestowitzECT puts up there quotes from 'it'Aug 13 20:25
twitterinterestingAug 13 20:25
schestowitzSo just something conspicuous. It's a familiar pattern and /. often unifies them (Darryl, Wong, etc.Aug 13 20:25
twitterI've busted that one for being a sock puppetAug 13 20:26
twittersee the troll zoo for a link to a misstep hairyfeet made.  he forgot to change accounts and posted the same thing twice under two names.Aug 13 20:27
*Lns has quit ("Φ")Aug 13 20:27
twitterI hope "hairyfeet" is maleAug 13 20:27
schestowitz"RIP LinuxWorld/Open Source World" < http://www.sdtimes.com/blog/post/2009/08/12/RIP-LinuxworldOpen-Source-World.aspx > <ASPAug 13 20:28
Will_twitter : or a hobbit :)Aug 13 20:29
twitterokAug 13 20:30
schestowitz"Today, I understood the call. In the desperate struggle to keep this show alive, its organizers were clinging to any and all ideas. And as it turns out, they went with all of those ideas at once. Today was the first day of the Open Source World / Next Generation Data Center / Cloud somethingorother / Dice Job fair, expo and conference in San Francisco."Aug 13 20:30
twitternot many people have money for travel these days -> The expo floor was a tiny hovel of non-decision-makers, job-seekers and 70-year-old conference tourists.Aug 13 20:33
DaemonFCI've had a major caffeine withdrawl headache all day, it took a few days to catch up with meAug 13 20:34
DaemonFCI think the worst is overAug 13 20:34
proteusthere was free beer thoughAug 13 20:34
twitterI wonder if SDTimes is another Gates Foundation "investment"Aug 13 20:36
twitterThe article is a bad hatchet job.Aug 13 20:36
twitterWhat's wrong with an inclusive conference?  Why does OSCon get a pass on inclusiveness when LinuxWorld gets the shaft?Aug 13 20:37
twitterAll kinds of conferences have had down attendance and most are filled with job seekers.Aug 13 20:39
proteusarticle is more or less accurate. That trade show is dead. LinuxWorld should merge with OSCON instead of NGDC/cloud stuffAug 13 20:39
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twitterDefine "dead"Aug 13 20:39
twitterbetter yet, tell me what makes a conference a success.Aug 13 20:39
twitteryou might also answer the contradictions I've asked.Aug 13 20:40
proteusLinux World was bad name choice in the first place. It's not about Linux but OSS at the end.FreeBSD guys had the most impressive demo with KDE on the expo floorAug 13 20:40
twitterWhy is a 70 year old at OScon considered a "decision maker" but a "tourist" at Linux World.Aug 13 20:41
proteusDead as dead rock. No movers, no shakers, no new products, no ideasAug 13 20:41
proteusRetirees are not decission makers. Sorry.Aug 13 20:41
twitterwere you there?Aug 13 20:41
proteusyesAug 13 20:41
twitterfor who?Aug 13 20:41
proteusmyself :-)Aug 13 20:42
twitterand who do you work for?Aug 13 20:42
proteusI attend "inux World" since it's first one in SJ, CA.Aug 13 20:42
*Tallken (n=Tallken@93.102.80.103.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 20:42
twitterand who do you work for?Aug 13 20:42
proteuswhy that matters?Aug 13 20:42
twitterI don't know if it matters until you tell me.Aug 13 20:43
proteuscome to http://www.linuxpicnic.org/twiki/bin/view/Picnix18/ and we can talkAug 13 20:43
twitterno thanks.Aug 13 20:44
twitter*** twitter ignores evasive and negative userAug 13 20:44
DaemonFChttp://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/08/13/13greenwire-exxon-mobil-pleads-guilty-to-killing-migratory-90137.htmlAug 13 20:45
DaemonFCExxon Mobil Pleads Guilty to Killing Migratory BirdsAug 13 20:45
proteusprteus ingnores DHCP usersAug 13 20:45
trmancowtfAug 13 20:45
DaemonFC"Under the plea agreement reached yesterday with DOJ, the company will pay $600,000, as well as make changes to prevent related deaths in the future. Exxon told the court it has already spent $2.5 million on the effort."Aug 13 20:46
DaemonFC$600,000, what a pittanceAug 13 20:46
DaemonFCone of the biggest oil companies in the world kills 85 different kinds of endangered birds and gets that small a fine?Aug 13 20:46
ThistleWebtwitter think's he's the geshtapoAug 13 20:49
ThistleWebanyone who dont answer his questions in a way he wants is deemed the enemyAug 13 20:49
ThistleWebits not really helpful to the causeAug 13 20:49
DaemonFCtwitter is also a number of sockpuppets, infesting a number of sitesAug 13 20:50
DaemonFCincluding SlashdotAug 13 20:50
DaemonFCthe stuff he writes is usually bad enough that the Firehose takes care of itAug 13 20:50
ThistleWebbeing ignore by twitter is a kinda badge saying you're "normal"Aug 13 20:50
ThistleWebhe seems to have the people skills of RMSAug 13 20:51
DaemonFChe doesn't actually ignore anyoneAug 13 20:52
proteusinterestingAug 13 20:52
DaemonFCif you provoke him, he can suddenly "see" you againAug 13 20:52
ThistleWebyeah I worked that out after he mistakenly got involved in a convo with me, after claiming to have ignored meAug 13 20:52
DaemonFCsameAug 13 20:52
ThistleWebuntil I pointed out that I thought I was being ignoredAug 13 20:53
ThistleWebBN has enough peeps come here to attack it, it needs to welcome friends when they come, not bark at them, accuse them of being trolls etcAug 13 20:54
ThistleWeball that does is make it an unwelcome channelAug 13 20:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Wolfram Alpha Computes Cheating Girlfriend [Parody Video] http://ff.im/-6zfZGAug 13 20:54
ThistleWeband play into the hands of the detractorsAug 13 20:54
ThistleWebbut what can ya doAug 13 20:56
ThistleWebso proteus welcome to the land of the sane, twitter has deemed you to be ignoredAug 13 20:57
ThistleWebit's like an entry ticket, of sortsAug 13 20:58
proteusAh, thanks guys to recognize me as one of yours :-)Aug 13 20:59
ThistleWebtwitter is a kinda quick draw, anyone is only a sentence away from being labelled a trollAug 13 20:59
ThistleWebthe more you disagree with him, or point out flaws in his arguments, the more his finger nears the triggerAug 13 21:00
ThistleWebin normal circles, he'd be the kid in the corner you cant evict, but everybody just pretends don't existAug 13 21:00
proteuswhat's this rubbish about? http://www.serverwatch.com/trends/article.php/3834076/Ubuntu-Debian-Partner-to-Employ-Communist-Era-Model.htmAug 13 21:01
ThistleWebhoping that sooner or later you glance at his corner and see he's given up and leftAug 13 21:01
proteus:-)Aug 13 21:02
ThistleWebanyhoo, back at the pointAug 13 21:02
MinceRDaemonFC: you seem to be very much into provoking people.Aug 13 21:03
MinceR215908 < DaemonFC> if you provoke him, he can suddenly "see" you againAug 13 21:03
ThistleWebit's not hard to provoke twitter, mention any choice that includes stuff he dont agree with and he's offAug 13 21:06
ThistleWebfreedom of choice seems to be fine, as long as all the options are what he approves ofAug 13 21:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Big Boys Are Upgrading to GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/ak2ACAug 13 21:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Army of GNU/Linux Servers at Google Expands to Desks http://ping.fm/eKCCvAug 13 21:08
DaemonFChttp://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/13/1310228/Wikipedia-Approaches-Its-LimitsAug 13 21:10
schestowitztwitter: what's the matter with you?Aug 13 21:11
schestowitzYou're ignoring the good peopleAug 13 21:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Windows Viruses and Cost Lead Ethiopian Government to Looking at Free Software http://ping.fm/djGUtAug 13 21:11
ThistleWebschestowitz: he's not, he only says he isAug 13 21:11
schestowitzFunny RMS analogyAug 13 21:11
schestowitzI'm catching up BTWAug 13 21:11
ThistleWebthen he forgets who he's suposed to have ignoredAug 13 21:11
schestowitzRe : http://www.serverwatch.com/trends/article.php/3834076/Ubuntu-Debian-Partner-to-Employ-Communist-Era-Model.htmAug 13 21:12
schestowitzHe's a Linux guyAug 13 21:12
schestowitzBut he's feeling playful with provocative analogiesAug 13 21:12
schestowitzLinux.. communism... -> annoyed people give attention to PaulAug 13 21:13
ThistleWebyeah I read that to the bottom, the conclusion is that linux has the blend rightAug 13 21:13
ThistleWebthat it'll be harder and harder to beatAug 13 21:13
schestowitzThe headline is what most people readAug 13 21:13
schestowitzLike the "Is Linux irrelevant?" thingAug 13 21:13
schestowitzVery familiar rcipeAug 13 21:13
schestowitzI prefer just infoative headlines that summariseAug 13 21:13
schestowitzSo you can read the headline/summary without open questionsAug 13 21:14
schestowitzThen the body substatiates the synopsisAug 13 21:14
ThistleWebI did a "linux will never be ready for the desktop" post int he linux reality forums ages ago......which was all about linux not being malware compatible etcAug 13 21:14
schestowitzAnd if one remains a skeptic, there's the bunch of commentsAug 13 21:14
schestowitzIt's also easier to find old items this wayAug 13 21:14
schestowitzBy headlinesAug 13 21:14
DaemonFCPer Capita GDP for Ethiopia: $324Aug 13 21:14
schestowitzNot a good measureAug 13 21:15
schestowitzThey pay less for food for exampleAug 13 21:15
DaemonFCUSA Per Capita GDP: $46,859Aug 13 21:15
schestowitzWarped perception of welthAug 13 21:15
schestowitz*wealthAug 13 21:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: wow. wow. go go usaAug 13 21:15
schestowitzIt's an improper comparisonAug 13 21:15
ThistleWebthe only reason the west has so much spare money to buy stuff, is that a lot of the stuff is made in cheap countriesAug 13 21:16
DaemonFCnot entirelyAug 13 21:16
schestowitzShall we compare Pollux  to Earth too?Aug 13 21:16
DaemonFCin a backwards economy, people live largely on subsistence farming or huntingAug 13 21:16
ThistleWebif all their goods were made at US wages, the prices would be vastly moreAug 13 21:16
DaemonFCthat's why their cost of living is lowAug 13 21:16
ThistleWebmeaning their wages wouldn't buy anywhere near the sameAug 13 21:16
schestowitzFarming and hunting is goodAug 13 21:16
DaemonFCnot reallyAug 13 21:16
schestowitz'tleast they don't chase mortgagesAug 13 21:17
ThistleWeball the luxuries like dvds, games etc are all out of reachAug 13 21:17
DaemonFCit just means they're weak and exploitable by modern societiesAug 13 21:17
schestowitzI wonder where the suicide rate is higher, Ethiopia or the USAug 13 21:17
DaemonFCthe British took advantage of this at one pointAug 13 21:17
DaemonFCfor a long timeAug 13 21:17
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 21:17
schestowitzbrbAug 13 21:17
ThistleWebplenty of countries see owning a house as a strange conceptAug 13 21:17
DaemonFCtil they couldn't threaten anyone anymoreAug 13 21:17
ThistleWebthe UK it's the norm to work forAug 13 21:18
DaemonFCthe British stopped expanding when their victims would no longer cooperateAug 13 21:18
ThistleWebevery empire doesAug 13 21:18
DaemonFCeven with vastly superior firepower, it didn't help themAug 13 21:18
ThistleWebthey use the tools of their day to enforce their empireAug 13 21:18
DaemonFCthe British went wrong by trying to occupy what they conqueredAug 13 21:18
schestowitzEthiopia: OLPC donates 5,000 laptops worth 940,000 USD http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article27679Aug 13 21:18
DaemonFCmade the people there resent them moreAug 13 21:18
ThistleWeboccupying is only one form of controlAug 13 21:19
DaemonFCexactlyAug 13 21:19
ThistleWebthe US do the same with ecconomicsAug 13 21:19
DaemonFCbut if you give them the illusion of autonomy, it's far easier to control themAug 13 21:19
DaemonFCthe British overlooked thatAug 13 21:19
ThistleWebnah, they used the tools of their timeAug 13 21:19
ThistleWebjust as the US are nowAug 13 21:20
ThistleWebeveny empire doesAug 13 21:20
ThistleWebjust as every empire will fallAug 13 21:20
DaemonFCthe British are still pathetically trying to hold Northern IrelandAug 13 21:20
DaemonFCthat won't work for them in the long run anywayAug 13 21:20
ThistleWebthats complicatedAug 13 21:20
ThistleWebit's split, plenty want to remain part of the UK, while plenty dontAug 13 21:21
DaemonFCI think the RIRA has the right ideaAug 13 21:21
DaemonFCblow enough of them up and they may get tired of itAug 13 21:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] VIA Takes Linux Kernel Space Seriously http://ping.fm/seH0OAug 13 21:21
DaemonFCbeats placating themAug 13 21:21
ThistleWebplenty irish want to be part of ireland, joinng witht he republic, penty want a separate stateAug 13 21:21
ThistleWebso killing innocents is the thing to do huh?Aug 13 21:22
DaemonFCbut most of them agree as far as getting rid of the British influence I take itAug 13 21:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Desktop GNU/Linux Leaves Vista 7 in the Dust http://ping.fm/CJgWKAug 13 21:22
ThistleWebso you'll be rooting for the guys doing the same to US troopsAug 13 21:22
ThistleWebkill enough US troops and they;ll give upAug 13 21:22
DaemonFCno, I'd never have sent in any soldiersAug 13 21:22
DaemonFCI would have indiscrimionately bombed every inchAug 13 21:23
DaemonFCjsut be glad I don't get that callAug 13 21:23
ThistleWebso mass murderAug 13 21:23
DaemonFC*indiscriminatelyAug 13 21:23
ThistleWebthats itAug 13 21:23
ThistleWebraise an area to the groundAug 13 21:23
ThistleWebthat'll win them overAug 13 21:23
DaemonFCwho is trying to win anyone over?Aug 13 21:23
ThistleWebjust as well the "bad guys" dont decide to use that, as a "pre-emptive" move on an agressive USAug 13 21:24
DaemonFCobvious that this will never happenAug 13 21:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista is a huge opportunity for GNU/Linux... to sink the price of Windows even further down... from $5 for Windows XP.Aug 13 21:24
ThistleWebI'm trying to understand why you seem to side with the terrorist approachAug 13 21:24
DaemonFCwell, the Muslims don't co-exist with anyone else peacefullyAug 13 21:24
ThistleWebas a long term solutionAug 13 21:24
DaemonFCthey've shown that for thousands of yearsAug 13 21:24
ThistleWebin some countries they dontAug 13 21:24
ThistleWebin many they doAug 13 21:25
DaemonFCI'd rather just leave it aloneAug 13 21:25
DaemonFCthey never willAug 13 21:25
ThistleWebbesides, "Musilim" is a wide group of peopleAug 13 21:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft IE 8 shines in Web browser security test :... http://ff.im/6zmqlAug 13 21:25
ThistleWebyou could argue the same with any religionAug 13 21:25
DaemonFCnot reallyAug 13 21:25
DaemonFCthey're somewhat diverse, but they even want to wipe out each otherAug 13 21:25
DaemonFCso what does that say?Aug 13 21:25
MinceRreligion is prone to thatAug 13 21:26
ThistleWebtake the lunatics of the deep south who claim HIV is god's punishment for allowing gays, or preists who have a pencheant for lil boys as the normAug 13 21:26
MinceRor perhaps rather people who use religion to control othersAug 13 21:26
ThistleWebthey are of course not the norm for catholicsAug 13 21:26
DaemonFCyeah, they don't actually do anything themselves thoughAug 13 21:27
DaemonFCthey know that the majority of our society won't stand for itAug 13 21:27
DaemonFCso they just talk a lotAug 13 21:27
DaemonFCmainlyAug 13 21:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Games Just Keep Coming to GNU/Linux: Aquaria, Hive Rise http://ping.fm/rfbLX http://ping.fm/8HGSQAug 13 21:27
DaemonFCin Ethiopia, you could kill a gay man and the rest of the country would laugh about it with you I'm sureAug 13 21:28
DaemonFChere they get put away for lifeAug 13 21:28
MinceRor the majority of our society doesn't dare do itAug 13 21:28
DaemonFCso I'd far rather be hereAug 13 21:28
ThistleWebthats the game, pick out extreme examples to portray the normAug 13 21:28
DaemonFCthese backwards third world countries are usually where they're at because of a medieval repressive religionAug 13 21:29
ThistleWebthis is the point where I bow out and laughAug 13 21:29
DaemonFCthey'll gladly blame Western society for all their problems thoughAug 13 21:29
DaemonFCthe middle east is basically locked in the dark agesAug 13 21:30
DaemonFCthe Christian dark ages stopped scientific progress for hundreds of yearsAug 13 21:30
DaemonFCit will tak us til the 26th century or so to progress to where we should be nowAug 13 21:30
ThistleWebthe west IS to blame for a lot of itAug 13 21:30
ThistleWebnot all of it, but a LOT of itAug 13 21:31
DaemonFCscapegoatingAug 13 21:31
ThistleWebpolicies in the west are defined by "western interests" which means "exploitable assets"Aug 13 21:31
DaemonFCif they'd throw down their backwards religious regimes and join the 21st century, the rest of hte world would welcome themAug 13 21:31
DaemonFCso?Aug 13 21:31
DaemonFCthey'd do the same thing to us if the fortunes were reversedAug 13 21:32
DaemonFCwhat's the difference?Aug 13 21:32
DaemonFCthey're holding themselves backAug 13 21:32
ThistleWebso every policy of a rich western nation acting in some poor country "for it's own good" has contributed to thisAug 13 21:32
DaemonFCso?Aug 13 21:32
DaemonFCthe rest of the world has "poor me" syndromeAug 13 21:33
DaemonFCisntead of bettering themselvesAug 13 21:33
ThistleWebsee a new country and decide "we own this" rather than "lets see who the natives are and if we can trade with them"Aug 13 21:33
ThistleWebthe rules are stacked against themAug 13 21:33
ThistleWebthe rules made by the westAug 13 21:33
DaemonFCyeah, every society has done that at some point throughout historyAug 13 21:33
ThistleWebfor the westAug 13 21:33
DaemonFCit's human natureAug 13 21:33
ThistleWebeven with the best will in the world, they're in an unwinnable positionAug 13 21:33
DaemonFCno, there have been asian expansionistic effortsAug 13 21:34
ThistleWebthat's not counting the warlords etc holding stuff backAug 13 21:34
DaemonFCwhich were crushed at some pointAug 13 21:34
ThistleWebmany regimes funded by the west tooAug 13 21:34
DaemonFCincluding the mid 20th centuryAug 13 21:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNOME 2.28 Beta is Here http://ping.fm/xWhptAug 13 21:34
ThistleWebwars funded by the westAug 13 21:34
DaemonFCwrongAug 13 21:34
DaemonFCthe Chinese civil war allowed the Japanese to move in with minimal resistanceAug 13 21:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle Strengthens GNU/Linux-oriented Virtualisation http://ping.fm/mcQg5Aug 13 21:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SystemRescueCd 1.2.3 and Parted Magic 4.4 Released http://ping.fm/zHIYY http://ping.fm/7EbnrAug 13 21:35
DaemonFChad it been just those two going at it, the Japanese would have taken over all of China and then moved onAug 13 21:35
ThistleWebI understand where you're coming from, having a US centric education, and taught that the US is the source of all goodAug 13 21:36
DaemonFCthere have been asian military campaigns to "take over the world"Aug 13 21:36
ThistleWebunfortunately, the rest of the world does not recognise that US, they have seen, and continue to see the real face of the USAug 13 21:36
DaemonFCif the Japanese had gotten their hands on those resources, they would have had the ability to spread furtherAug 13 21:37
DaemonFCevery society wants to expandAug 13 21:37
DaemonFCand every society will, given the resourcesAug 13 21:37
DaemonFCwhat has kept this in check is other societies with the resources to stop them because they see a threat to themselvesAug 13 21:38
ThistleWebI give up, enjoy your visionAug 13 21:38
DaemonFCif you can't be strong, keep sucking up to whoever can protect youAug 13 21:39
DaemonFCand pray you stay on their good gracesAug 13 21:39
DaemonFC:)Aug 13 21:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RealDVD Product Uses Linux to Fight Copyright Madness http://ping.fm/5pClQAug 13 21:39
ThistleWebin other words, if you cant stand up to the bully, become his bitchAug 13 21:39
DaemonFCit's what always happensAug 13 21:40
DaemonFCwhy don't you just strengthen yourself and fend for yourselfAug 13 21:40
DaemonFCrather than depend on handouts?Aug 13 21:40
ThistleWeblolAug 13 21:40
ThistleWebyou should be a republicanAug 13 21:40
DaemonFCweaker countries are like the weaklings that go side with one bully to protect them from the otherAug 13 21:41
ThistleWebthey need more recruits like youAug 13 21:41
_goblinschestowitz: Are you aware of this? http://www.techtree.com/India/News/MS_Word_Banned_in_the_US/551-105520-580.htmlAug 13 21:41
DaemonFCthe only choices they give themselves are which bully to surrender their lunch money toAug 13 21:41
DaemonFCit's fairly patheticAug 13 21:41
ThistleWebI'd prefer to work towards a system where there is no bullyAug 13 21:42
DaemonFCnot really an optionAug 13 21:43
ThistleWebrather than one where a bully is a bad thing if you're not it, or on the receiving end of it, but a good thing if you are it; a world without double standardsAug 13 21:43
ThistleWebnot for those with no imagination, of course notAug 13 21:44
DaemonFCas long as one or two societies better themselves beyond the technological limits of all othersAug 13 21:44
DaemonFCthe rest are suck upsAug 13 21:44
DaemonFCthat's just how it worksAug 13 21:44
ThistleWebthe US paid taxes to the brits a while back, that was just "how it worked"Aug 13 21:44
ThistleWebnothing changed?Aug 13 21:44
DaemonFCfor example, North Korea can't get a missile much past their border, much less with a bomb strapped to itAug 13 21:44
ThistleWebthe monarchy in the UK had absolute rule because that was "just how things worked"Aug 13 21:44
DaemonFCwe could scorch every inch of their country with minimal effortAug 13 21:45
ThistleWebyet we now have an ellected govtAug 13 21:45
DaemonFCthey're no threatAug 13 21:45
*Tallken has quit ("Leaving.")Aug 13 21:45
ThistleWebjust because it's the status quo today, does not make it right, nor does it mean it will be the status quo tomorrowAug 13 21:45
DaemonFCnow you jsut pay to have moats cleaned for your elected governmentAug 13 21:45
DaemonFCright?Aug 13 21:45
DaemonFCheheAug 13 21:45
ThistleWebthe point, in case you missed it, was that things can change, even those which seem unchangableAug 13 21:46
DaemonFCthe British did some damned disgusting thingsAug 13 21:46
DaemonFCthey never apologizedAug 13 21:46
DaemonFCthey would do it againAug 13 21:46
ThistleWebof courseAug 13 21:46
DaemonFCxactly what changed other than their ability to make war?Aug 13 21:46
ThistleWebdunno about that so muchAug 13 21:46
DaemonFC*exactlyAug 13 21:47
ThistleWebsome they wouldAug 13 21:47
ThistleWebsome they wouldntAug 13 21:47
schestowitz_goblin: yes, I posted about it in BN (twice even!)Aug 13 21:47
DaemonFCif the onyl factor that stopped them is their resources collapsed, it stands to reason that if they got the resources to go after their objectives again, they probably wouldAug 13 21:48
ThistleWebin many ways your rightAug 13 21:48
DaemonFCit's not an option right now so they pretend to have this superiority complex like the rest of the world is still lucky they don't "choose" to come kick their assesAug 13 21:48
ThistleWebevery empire over extends its resourcesAug 13 21:48
DaemonFCit's quite comicalAug 13 21:48
ThistleWebwhen the US goes around kicking sand in peeps faces it makes more and more enemies, who it will have to spend more and more money to protect itself fromAug 13 21:49
DaemonFCThistleWeb: Communication limits and over-diversification of a culture bring an empire downAug 13 21:49
ThistleWebat some point that system collapsesAug 13 21:49
DaemonFCwe've solved the communication limitsAug 13 21:49
_goblinschestowitz: doh.....Just been on about 1hour...catching up....Aug 13 21:49
schestowitzThistleWeb: indeed. http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2009/04/13/chalmers-johnson/Aug 13 21:49
DaemonFCafter a culture becomes too diverse, the people share nothing in commonAug 13 21:50
DaemonFCand the empire collapsesAug 13 21:50
DaemonFCit's partially what brought down the Ottoman EmpireAug 13 21:50
schestowitzChalmers Johnson does many comparisons between the US empire and the Roman empireAug 13 21:50
ThistleWebthey only have notuhing in common when the community leaders concentrate on dviding them, rather than looking at what they have in common, and building a soiciety togetherAug 13 21:50
DaemonFCthe communication technology limits were the other factorAug 13 21:50
ThistleWebwhen some peeps have no stake in the society they live in, they have no reason to take partAug 13 21:51
schestowitzCaesar Bush led to the destruction of his empireAug 13 21:51
schestowitzBut he made a bundle in the process with his oil buddies in TXAug 13 21:51
ThistleWebthe US empire has been crumbling for a while before Bush, he just accelerated itAug 13 21:51
schestowitzI bet Osama would have voted for BushAug 13 21:51
DaemonFCwhen the majority of people feel they have no stake in the society they live inAug 13 21:51
schestowitzHe shot the US in the footAug 13 21:52
DaemonFCthat's the fallacy of diversificationAug 13 21:52
DaemonFCdamned liberals ignore itAug 13 21:52
schestowitzThistleWeb: yes, before that tooAug 13 21:52
schestowitzAmassing debtAug 13 21:52
ThistleWebI suppose a healthy model of society is where communities are made up of all whitesAug 13 21:52
schestowitzWith a trillion dollars per year spent on 'defense' it's a necessityAug 13 21:52
ThistleWebor all blacksAug 13 21:52
ThistleWebnever the twain shall meetAug 13 21:52
schestowitzBuilding over 1,000 bases in other people's homesAug 13 21:52
DaemonFCwe've had worse problems before and recoveredAug 13 21:52
ThistleWebthat was triedAug 13 21:52
ThistleWebit failedAug 13 21:53
ThistleWebnot to mention how wrong it wasAug 13 21:53
schestowitzbrbAug 13 21:53
DaemonFCif their government leased it to us, we have a right to be thereAug 13 21:53
DaemonFCthat is part of the United States until the agreement expiresAug 13 21:53
ThistleWebwhat if their govt was made up of US funded coup members?Aug 13 21:53
ThistleWeblike MS staging a coup at a companyAug 13 21:54
ThistleWebplacing their peeps on the boardAug 13 21:54
DaemonFCthat's always the excuse anywayAug 13 21:54
ThistleWebto make decisionsAug 13 21:54
ThistleWebthats valid ont he same linesAug 13 21:54
ThistleWebthe board decided it was fineAug 13 21:54
ThistleWebeven if the board is a lackey of some outside entityAug 13 21:54
DaemonFCthen it's your fault for electing themAug 13 21:54
ThistleWeba coup is not ellectedAug 13 21:55
DaemonFCif your shareholders elect Microsoft lackeys to your boardAug 13 21:55
ThistleWeba coup is overthrowing the previous regimeAug 13 21:55
DaemonFCand they make an agreement with MicrosoftAug 13 21:55
DaemonFCwhat did you expect?Aug 13 21:55
ThistleWebnot unlike yahooAug 13 21:55
DaemonFCif you don't like the agreement, change your government and rescind the dealAug 13 21:56
ThistleWebwhich goes back to the "the govt said we could be there, we have every right to be there"Aug 13 21:56
ThistleWebthe new govt says noAug 13 21:56
ThistleWebso it means noAug 13 21:56
ThistleWebthe deal has changedAug 13 21:56
ThistleWebso you don't have the right to be there any longerAug 13 21:56
DaemonFCuntil our agreement runs outAug 13 21:56
DaemonFCso say we have a 50 year leaseAug 13 21:57
DaemonFCwhen it's over, you rescind it, we leaveAug 13 21:57
ThistleWebit's THEIR country, not the US'sAug 13 21:57
ThistleWebthey can do whatever the hell they likeAug 13 21:57
DaemonFCwrong, that country has contractual obligationsAug 13 21:57
ThistleWebdude, the US does not own the planetAug 13 21:57
DaemonFCthe British should have been thrown out of Hong Kong after the communists took overAug 13 21:57
DaemonFCright?Aug 13 21:57
ThistleWebas much as it may be convient for you to think soAug 13 21:57
DaemonFCtheir agreement should not have been honoredAug 13 21:58
ThistleWebapparently the hong kong peeps prefered brit rule to chinese, but in the end that didnt matterAug 13 21:58
DaemonFCunless you come up with a new constitution and a brand new governmentAug 13 21:58
DaemonFCyour government is bound by its treatiesAug 13 21:58
ThistleWebyeah treaties lolAug 13 21:59
ThistleWebanother jokeAug 13 21:59
DaemonFCjust electing a new president didn't automatically rescind everything Bush didAug 13 21:59
DaemonFCthere's a lot of bad shit we have to honor because he agreed to itAug 13 21:59
DaemonFCbecause it's the same governmentAug 13 22:00
MinceRand not much changed anywayAug 13 22:00
ThistleWebdid you expect much to change?Aug 13 22:00
ThistleWebreallyAug 13 22:00
MinceRnot reallyAug 13 22:00
ThistleWebthe US govt is controlled by the corporationsAug 13 22:00
MinceRi think what i expected has happenedAug 13 22:00
ThistleWebthey win, regardless of who the people put in the hot seatAug 13 22:00
MinceR(less focus on warmongering)Aug 13 22:00
DaemonFCa lot of it was signed into law and can't easily be repealedAug 13 22:00
ThistleWebit's business as susualAug 13 22:00
ThistleWebyeah, because warmongering is not high on the list of things US peeps likeAug 13 22:01
ThistleWebbad PR to keep drawing attention to itAug 13 22:01
DaemonFCsome doAug 13 22:01
ThistleWebyeah, you've shown us thatAug 13 22:01
DaemonFCsome are being strung along into the Deather crapAug 13 22:02
DaemonFCthey think healthcare reform = killing GrandmaAug 13 22:02
DaemonFCcause the Republicans told them thatAug 13 22:02
ThistleWebthe groupd shouting against the healthcare reform are those who have a stake in making money from healthcare pricingAug 13 22:03
ThistleWebprivate companiesAug 13 22:03
ThistleWebprotesting under proxies, as all "good" corps do these daysAug 13 22:03
DaemonFCno, they string along thousands of craziesAug 13 22:03
DaemonFCwho don't know any betterAug 13 22:03
ThistleWebusing any lies they can to sell their story as trueAug 13 22:04
DaemonFCand 1% of the population gets the whole thing killedAug 13 22:04
ThistleWebin the UK we have "truth in advertising" laws, but I'm not sure they apply to political adsAug 13 22:04
DaemonFCor corporate-incited mobsAug 13 22:05
DaemonFCyay!Aug 13 22:05
ThistleWebthey may do, but I think those are classed as opinionAug 13 22:05
DaemonFCall they have to do is bend the truthAug 13 22:05
DaemonFCend of life counseling becomes "Nazi death squad"Aug 13 22:05
DaemonFClolAug 13 22:06
trmancohttp://www.h-online.com/security/Microsoft-2-year-response-to-critical-0-day-hole--/news/113994Aug 13 22:06
ThistleWebbending the truth is what corporate marketing is tooAug 13 22:06
ThistleWebbut several have had their wings clipped for claiming something wrong, or unprovenAug 13 22:06
DaemonFCI love when Splogs copy my blog postingsAug 13 22:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Proof That Microsoft Doesn't Give a Blip About Security http://ping.fm/ozctwAug 13 22:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sony Tries Openness in Linux-based eBook Readers and eBooks http://ping.fm/yaLcrAug 13 22:21
ThistleWebSony have been dipping their toes on open stuff before, at least parts of the company have.Aug 13 22:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] China's Internet Censorship Regime Defeated, Almost http://ping.fm/3960sAug 13 22:22
ThistleWebtheir music arm have been using drupal for a while now for artists sitesAug 13 22:22
ThistleWebthey also employ the dev behind JQueryAug 13 22:22
ThistleWebit may only be a small part of the company, but it's a startAug 13 22:23
ThistleWebhopefully it'll be successful for them to use to try and persuade other parts to look at openAug 13 22:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Eats Its Own Poison (Let is Have 'Fun') http://ping.fm/hyi3hAug 13 22:27
schestowitzSony... of Rootkit FameAug 13 22:27
schestowitz:-)Aug 13 22:27
schestowitzOpenRotkitAug 13 22:27
ThistleWebyeah Sony have a dodgy historyAug 13 22:28
schestowitzOr RoTKitSourceAug 13 22:28
schestowitzPopular naming schemes for 'open source' projectsAug 13 22:28
ThistleWebthey have dipped a toe inAug 13 22:28
ThistleWebgive them thatAug 13 22:28
schestowitzYou can download the rootkit source and play with itAug 13 22:28
schestowitzCreate your own derivs and stufff !!Aug 13 22:28
ThistleWeblike any large company, it's far too big to be all cordinatedAug 13 22:29
ThistleWebsome parts do dodgy things, some step outside the natural orderAug 13 22:29
schestowitzSony is not as big as it used to be :-)Aug 13 22:29
ThistleWebI knowAug 13 22:29
ThistleWeblike I said, the only parts of Sony which have played with open source is the peeps behind making artists sitesAug 13 22:30
ThistleWebthe can also run linux easily apparentlyAug 13 22:30
ThistleWebdrupal has been VERY well accepted in those departments, where they previously would have had to do a LOT of custom work for each artistAug 13 22:31
ThistleWebas well as fix all the bugs etc themselvesAug 13 22:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft "PlayReady" is Not Ready for the Desktop http://ping.fm/m76DTAug 13 22:31
ThistleWeband anyone using jquery benefits from sony's moneyAug 13 22:31
ThistleWebwhen the department reviews come up, those who have embraced stuff like Drupal will shine, thereby drawing more attention and willingness for other departments to explore itAug 13 22:33
ThistleWebany dept that's not making it's share of the profits is a candidate to be closed downAug 13 22:35
ThistleWebeven worse if it's making a lossAug 13 22:36
ThistleWebjust ask MSAug 13 22:36
ThistleWeblolAug 13 22:36
schestowitzSony competes with Microsoft over who can lose more in consolesAug 13 22:37
schestowitzSo far they are both 'winning'Aug 13 22:38
schestowitzI.e. losing billiobsAug 13 22:38
MinceR:DAug 13 22:38
DaemonFCthe console is always sold at a loss of at least $100Aug 13 22:39
DaemonFCthat's just from piecing together the console using a cost estimate based on individual componentsAug 13 22:39
DaemonFCthey figure they'll make it up when they sell you a few games and some add on contentAug 13 22:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Twitter Killed by Windows Zombies Again http://ping.fm/jVRjQ Microsoft Windows Puppeteer Caught http://ping.fm/ZInTuAug 13 22:40
DaemonFCThat's also what makes the original XBOX such an attractive homebrew Linux PCAug 13 22:40
DaemonFCyou can rig that up with a $30 used XBOX and $20 worth of partsAug 13 22:40
MinceRand give billy and steve the finger :>Aug 13 22:42
MinceRtoo bad xboxes are unreliable crap.Aug 13 22:42
DaemonFCI hacked an XBOX up to run Xebian Linux and XBOX Media Center DashboardAug 13 22:42
DaemonFCthe latter uses FFMPEG to play back almost any kind of mediaAug 13 22:42
MinceRshould have hacked it up to run Xebian XNU/Xinux instead. :>Aug 13 22:42
ThistleWebI thought about buying a cheapo second hand xbox for a myth tv front endAug 13 22:42
ThistleWebnot a 360Aug 13 22:43
DaemonFCit's possible to solder in another 64 megs of RAMAug 13 22:43
ThistleWebbut from what I remember, xbox's sound like jet enginesAug 13 22:43
DaemonFCmy XBOX has the full 128 MB supported by the boardAug 13 22:43
DaemonFCand a 250 gig hard diskAug 13 22:43
DaemonFCit's also possible to install Windows XP on itAug 13 22:43
DaemonFCif you really wanted toAug 13 22:44
DaemonFCbut you're not going to do that without the memory upgradeAug 13 22:44
_goblinhow many red lights of death would you get if you tried it?Aug 13 22:44
DaemonFCoriginal had the yellow ring when there was something wrong with itAug 13 22:44
DaemonFC:)Aug 13 22:44
_goblinhas MS actually made any money yet on the console?Aug 13 22:45
DaemonFCthere have been a couple quarters where they did very wellAug 13 22:45
DaemonFCbut overall, noAug 13 22:45
DaemonFCHalo 3 was the only thing that saved Christmas for themAug 13 22:45
DaemonFClolAug 13 22:45
_goblinoh dear.Aug 13 22:45
ThistleWebthe 360 seemed to do well in the short time frame where they beat the ps3 to marketAug 13 22:45
_goblinfollowed by the Zune new year surprise...Aug 13 22:46
DaemonFCtook me like 6 hours to beat Halo 3 on legendaryAug 13 22:46
DaemonFCthe campaign isn't as long as Halo 2 or Halo: Combat EvolvedAug 13 22:46
DaemonFCthe XBOX Live maps are the only reason to even have that game, otherwise jsut rent itAug 13 22:47
DaemonFCI was also disappointed at the limited shotgun ammo in the gameAug 13 22:47
DaemonFCI tend to use the shotgun more than anything on first person shootersAug 13 22:47
ThistleWebI can't imagine a shotgun controller would be very good for racing gamesAug 13 22:48
ThistleWebunless it's set int he deep south where shooting strangers is part of the dealAug 13 22:48
ThistleWeblolAug 13 22:48
DaemonFCDoom 3's gravity gun in the Resurrection of Evil expansion pack was satisfyingAug 13 22:48
DaemonFCI especially enjoyed grabbing the imp fireballs and throwing them back at themAug 13 22:49
DaemonFCevery game with advanced physics always has to have a gravity gunAug 13 22:49
DaemonFCit's like a rule or somethingAug 13 22:50
ThistleWebor a lack of imaginationAug 13 22:51
DaemonFCphysics are a big reason to have a PS3 or and XBOX 360, they have the processing power for ragdoll physics before the model's AI is shut offAug 13 22:51
DaemonFCmost PCs don'tAug 13 22:51
DaemonFCmost games jsut have ragdoll physics after you kill somethingAug 13 22:51
DaemonFCbecause the AI thread uses too much processing power to have that before you kill themAug 13 22:51
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DaemonFCunfortunately, there's no open source video drivers that support physics acceleration, to my knowledgeAug 13 22:55
DaemonFCso FGLRX will probably be necessary to run Doom 4 even if the RadeonHD driver is otherwise completeAug 13 22:55
DaemonFCit was really only a matter of time before someone recognized that the GPU can also handle a physics APIAug 13 22:56
DaemonFChttp://xbmc.org/Aug 13 23:01
DaemonFCthere's the XBOX Media Center, says it also works on Linux, Windows, and Mac now as a standalone applicationAug 13 23:01
*Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@pool-64-222-238-7.port.east.myfairpoint.net) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 23:03
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schestowitzGreat interview... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2zMa3unSN8&feature=relatedAug 13 23:22
schestowitzHey, jono Aug 13 23:23
jonohi schestowitzAug 13 23:23
jonohows things?Aug 13 23:23
schestowitzLiked your appearance in more recent episodes of FLOSS Weekly. Will you come back?Aug 13 23:23
jonoschestowitz, thanks!Aug 13 23:23
schestowitzYou made them jealousAug 13 23:24
jonoschestowitz, sure, I will be back soon, just been traveling a lotAug 13 23:24
schestowitzRandall and LeoAug 13 23:24
jonoback next week :)Aug 13 23:24
jonomade them jealius?Aug 13 23:24
schestowitzJPython?Aug 13 23:24
schestowitzIron PythonAug 13 23:24
schestowitzOopsAug 13 23:24
jonojealous about what?Aug 13 23:24
schestowitzIronPython IIRCAug 13 23:24
schestowitzjono: was joking about something they said in your absence.Aug 13 23:25
jonooh right :)Aug 13 23:25
jonoheheAug 13 23:25
jonoso hows life here?Aug 13 23:25
schestowitzYou know better than them what's happeningAug 13 23:25
schestowitzThey use Mac AFAIKAug 13 23:25
schestowitz*MacsAug 13 23:25
jonoyepAug 13 23:25
schestowitzjono: it's OK, nothing abrasiveAug 13 23:25
jonoI am just sat at Open Source WorldAug 13 23:26
jonocatching up on a few mails :)Aug 13 23:26
schestowitzCool. How's the event?Aug 13 23:26
schestowitzSome critics out there say it, well.. sucksAug 13 23:26
schestowitzBut it's next-door for you....Aug 13 23:26
schestowitzHandy and Diaz wrote negative things aboout itAug 13 23:27
schestowitz[might remember the names wrongly..]Aug 13 23:27
jonowell, it is what it isAug 13 23:27
schestowitz:-)Aug 13 23:27
jonoI don't expect a huge amount out of it - it is a business conference with some community elementsAug 13 23:27
schestowitzSo no comment then Aug 13 23:27
jonoas opposed to a community conference with some business elementsAug 13 23:27
jonofor the business crowd, they seem to find value hereAug 13 23:28
schestowitzI saw press releasesAug 13 23:28
jonowhich is coolAug 13 23:28
schestowitzMostly the whole Fog Computing stuffAug 13 23:28
MinceR:DAug 13 23:28
jonoit is not my preference of event, but I am more of a community guyAug 13 23:28
schestowitz"Come to our cloud, savour our vapour"Aug 13 23:28
jonoschestowitz, heh, yeah, lots of cloud hereAug 13 23:28
MinceRVapor ComputingAug 13 23:28
jonoschestowitz, well, don't let buzzwords cloud (no pun intended) your judgement of a possibly useful technologyAug 13 23:28
jonothe buzzwords are meaningless but some of the tech is pretty coolAug 13 23:29
schestowitzMinceR: vapour is when it's devious too, like AzureAug 13 23:29
MinceR:)Aug 13 23:29
schestowitzjono: people are being fooledAug 13 23:29
schestowitzAnd RMS was right when he spoke to the Grauniad [IIRC]Aug 13 23:29
schestowitzIt's marketing hypeAug 13 23:29
schestowitzIt's just SaaS renamedAug 13 23:29
schestowitzPictures and windmills and allAug 13 23:29
ThistleWebopen saasAug 13 23:30
jonowell...whateverAug 13 23:30
schestowitz"Larry Ellison - What The Hell Is Cloud Computing?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FacYAI6DY0Aug 13 23:30
jonoI don't really care TBH :)Aug 13 23:30
jonoeach to their ownAug 13 23:30
schestowitzfewa brought it up BTWAug 13 23:30
Ziggyfishgood morning allAug 13 23:30
schestowitzHey, Ziggyfish Aug 13 23:30
schestowitzThanks for the link to the appealAug 13 23:30
ZiggyfishnpAug 13 23:31
ZiggyfishIf you could somehow clobber RealNetworks, Adobe and Microsoft to say, 'Can you please write software that doesn't have that many exploits, or if exploits are identified, have some mechanism for closing them more quickly' – then that would really helpAug 13 23:33
Ziggyfishwe already do it's called LinuxAug 13 23:33
Ziggyfishor open sourceAug 13 23:33
MinceRadobe isn't feeling it :/Aug 13 23:33
DaemonFCI'm waiting for Cloud 2.0Aug 13 23:38
DaemonFCnever be an early adopter I say :PAug 13 23:38
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellAug 13 23:38
schestowitzZiggyfish: or Free software :-DAug 13 23:38
MinceRweb 3.0?Aug 13 23:42
MinceRor web 2.1?Aug 13 23:42
*_Hicham_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.13/2009080317]")Aug 13 23:43
Ziggyfishor just Web ;)Aug 13 23:43
DaemonFChmmm, I may have found suitable media center softwareAug 13 23:43
MinceRor Web 2010? :>Aug 13 23:43
*DaemonFC slaps MinceR with Visual Web 2010 Express EditionAug 13 23:44
*MinceR dodgesAug 13 23:45
oiaohmVisual Web 2010 ok why.   It still a pain when it comes to muli browser support.Aug 13 23:46
MinceRthere's no such thing as "multi browser support" in Visual Web. :>Aug 13 23:46
DaemonFCsure there isAug 13 23:46
DaemonFCIE and FirefoxAug 13 23:46
ThistleWebIE6 and IE7Aug 13 23:47
DaemonFCIE 8Aug 13 23:47
oiaohmMobile phone support DaemonFCAug 13 23:47
DaemonFCPocket Internet ExplorerAug 13 23:47
oiaohmThat a lot of market uses these days DaemonFCAug 13 23:47
oiaohmPocket operaAug 13 23:48
oiaohmIs more common than Pocket internet Explorer.Aug 13 23:48
DaemonFCmaybeAug 13 23:48
DaemonFCSafari probably beats both of themAug 13 23:48
oiaohmMosty because Pocket opera is uses a lot of nokias.Aug 13 23:49
oiaohmThat is still the most dominate smart devices out there.Aug 13 23:49
DaemonFCIs that an Internet Explorer in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?Aug 13 23:49
DaemonFC:PAug 13 23:49
oiaohmBasically MS still missed the required support.Aug 13 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Disney to film Diary of Anne Frank http://notnews.today.com/?p=596Aug 13 23:50
oiaohmMaybe Visual Web 2012 they might get it.Aug 13 23:50
DaemonFCjesus, how long does mysql-essential take to install?Aug 13 23:50
oiaohmOn what DaemonFCAug 13 23:50
oiaohmWindows you will be waiting.Aug 13 23:50
DaemonFCnoticedAug 13 23:51
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaPortalAug 13 23:51
DaemonFCtrying to install thisAug 13 23:51
DaemonFCit has so many dependencies it's not even funnyAug 13 23:51
oiaohmIts almost faster to install a Linux distribution with mysql essentials than installing windows mysql.Aug 13 23:51
oiaohmYes insane.Aug 13 23:51
MinceRand it's definitely better.Aug 13 23:51
DaemonFCI should have told it to use SQL Server ExpressAug 13 23:52
DaemonFCbut then I'd probably be waiting as long for thatAug 13 23:52
oiaohmNot really.Aug 13 23:52
DaemonFCoh?Aug 13 23:52
oiaohmSQL Server Express has the bad habit from time to time stuffing database.Aug 13 23:52
oiaohmYes you would have got installed sooner but you will pay in stablity.Aug 13 23:53
DaemonFChmmm, 2005 or 2008?Aug 13 23:53
oiaohmEither.Aug 13 23:53
DaemonFCdo they both eat the database?Aug 13 23:53
DaemonFCcrapAug 13 23:53
oiaohmYep.Aug 13 23:53
oiaohmThe full paid for version does not.Aug 13 23:54
oiaohmJust the express versions.Aug 13 23:54
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Aug 13 23:54
oiaohmSomething to do with when MS added limiting code they screwed up.Aug 13 23:54
DaemonFCprobably so a major corporation can't throw some major heavy shit at the freeware versionAug 13 23:54
oiaohmLight version of sql server going nuts is the most common cause of SBS exchange bitting the big one.Aug 13 23:55
DaemonFCit's probably to drive people to ASP.NETAug 13 23:56
DaemonFCnow that I think about itAug 13 23:56
oiaohmIe don't install the express version of SQL Server on SBS unless you  want many pissed off people.Aug 13 23:57
DaemonFCthis is why I've always tried to avoid programs that depend on this stuffAug 13 23:59
oiaohmpostgresql installs faster on windows than mysqlAug 13 23:59

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