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| Chips_B_Malroy | It would seem that M$ has now pulled out all the stops in its attacks on Google, could be this because of the fear of the impending GoogleOS? | Sep 01 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Opinion: Free Software Should be Used More http://ping.fm/DxGC7 | Sep 01 00:01 | |
| MinceR | fear of their impending doom | Sep 01 00:02 |
| *DaemonFC (i=none@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has left #boycottnovell | Sep 01 00:02 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | its more than just the advertising bucks in play here and the yahoo deal | Sep 01 00:02 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | MinceR> I hope so | Sep 01 00:02 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #BSD Variant Released, BSD-Licensed Debugger (D) is Out http://ping.fm/kR3pU http://ping.fm/Fvzd7 | Sep 01 00:05 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free (Libre) Business Intelligence is Catching on http://ping.fm/s5uJL http://ping.fm/21e3C | Sep 01 00:06 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | The "screw google" by M$ articles, get another from their shills at MS Watch http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/microsoft_vs_the_world.html | Sep 01 00:08 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | is it any wonder that Microsoft does this? LOL | Sep 01 00:08 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | forget the ethics of doing so I guess | Sep 01 00:09 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | I hope Google will put their lawyers on this one, and maybe sue MS | Sep 01 00:11 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenOffice 3.1.1 Officially Released Today, Can be Tested Online http://ping.fm/KXC6g http://ping.fm/vhaC6 | Sep 01 00:12 | |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 00:14 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | For me, I decided that Wilcox was actually better informed than Nick. Wilcox would occasionally respond in the comments when he had been painted into a corner, trying to escape. Nick just doesn't seem to have much going for him beyond being a fanboy. | Sep 01 00:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why GPL Licensing is a Sure Winner http://ping.fm/5Ta8W | Sep 01 00:16 | |
| oiaohm | Ok Chips_B_Malroy ok I know 10 Nick's and about 3 Wilcox's that are writers. Now what ones are you refering to. | Sep 01 00:17 |
| oiaohm | And 3 of the Wilcox's write about Microsoft stuff. | Sep 01 00:18 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] DNA Follows the Free Software Route http://ping.fm/oBEdS http://ping.fm/OFOyp | Sep 01 00:19 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | oiaohm> this one: http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/microsoft_vs_the_world.html | Sep 01 00:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jamaican Ministry of Education Urged to Consider GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/fzDyD | Sep 01 00:20 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wikipedia Finds Method of Deterring Vandals http://ping.fm/AyvmY | Sep 01 00:21 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | its actually one of his better articles, oiaohm | Sep 01 00:21 |
| oiaohm | Read author Chips_B_Malroy | Sep 01 00:22 |
| oiaohm | I normally go by his last name. | Sep 01 00:22 |
| oiaohm | Sorry. | Sep 01 00:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] DHS Vandalises Human Rights http://ping.fm/oKwIj | Sep 01 00:22 | |
| oiaohm | Nicholas Kolakowski was entered into Microsoft watch to end the flaming a live. | Sep 01 00:23 |
| oiaohm | If you read Nicholas articals they are trying to remain blanced and fair to all sides. | Sep 01 00:24 |
| oiaohm | when you have the hot topic of MS that is not simple. | Sep 01 00:24 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | oiaohm> not sure I understand that | Sep 01 00:24 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | end the flaming a live | Sep 01 00:24 |
| oiaohm | Wilcox quite litteraly got flamed to articals over 1000 comments long. | Sep 01 00:25 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | agreed, its not that simple | Sep 01 00:25 |
| oiaohm | Wilcox made it worse by trying to post answer comments. | Sep 01 00:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Front Group Wants to Cut Downloaders Off Web http://ping.fm/rBzOT | Sep 01 00:25 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | and Ed Bott gets even longer commented articles | Sep 01 00:26 |
| oiaohm | Ie made mistake live with it is the safer path to avoid flames. | Sep 01 00:26 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] AstroTurfers Galore: State of the Poor State http://ping.fm/a3Uzi http://ping.fm/Qi1fg | Sep 01 00:26 | |
| oiaohm | Wilcox was known for also posting incorrect stuff about non MS OS's. That is why writer had to change. | Sep 01 00:27 |
| cubezzz-laptop | I wonder how many journalists actually use Linux day to day | Sep 01 00:27 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | that or he started to fail to police the bad language in the comments and porn links | Sep 01 00:27 |
| *ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 01 00:27 | |
| Chips_B_Malroy | oiaohm> just a guess most writers use Mac | Sep 01 00:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MAFIAA Calls User Rights "Disgusting" to Push Intellectual Monopolies http://ping.fm/yy2aN | Sep 01 00:28 | |
| oiaohm | Chips_B_Malroy: funny enough lot of writers don't use Windows Mac or Linux. | Sep 01 00:29 |
| oiaohm | Lot have like tandy wp3's and the like. For simple portablity. | Sep 01 00:29 |
| oiaohm | And simple aquirement of battiers. | Sep 01 00:29 |
| cubezzz-laptop | tandy?? | Sep 01 00:29 |
| oiaohm | They are machines with 8 line screen 80 char wide with a full keyboard that runs on 4 aa battiryes new ones of that class are still made today for writers cubezzz-laptop | Sep 01 00:30 |
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| Chips_B_Malroy | Oiaohm: wilcox was most likely fairer than Nick is, as proof: " It hasn't been the greatest of mornings for Microsoft: first the scrappy folks at the Free Software Foundation decide to launch an attack on Windows 7, complete with Website and a letter-writing campaign to the CEOs of the Fortune 500, basically accusing Redmond's new operating system of everything sort of sacrificing infants to Moloch. That's a re | Sep 01 00:31 |
| oiaohm | Yes 100 percent non windows no mac non linux. | Sep 01 00:31 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/marketing/microsofts_marketing_snafu_is_a_black_and_white_issue.html | Sep 01 00:31 |
| cubezzz-laptop | oiaohm, you mean one of theses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Model_100 | Sep 01 00:31 |
| cubezzz-laptop | probably not that old :) | Sep 01 00:32 |
| oiaohm | Like that cubezzz-laptop. They are still modern day releations made. | Sep 01 00:32 |
| oiaohm | With like usb support and network support. | Sep 01 00:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Software Patents Seen as Totally Impractical, Studies Agree http://ping.fm/64odj http://ping.fm/5liVj | Sep 01 00:32 | |
| cubezzz-laptop | not windows, mac or Linux, then what does it use? | Sep 01 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Custom that produces text documents cubezzz-laptop | Sep 01 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Each one basically has there own OS. | Sep 01 00:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Skype for Windows Unsafe http://ping.fm/qw5A3 | Sep 01 00:33 | |
| oiaohm | In the past Chips_B_Malroy the black and white issues when they happened ie image editing never made microsoft-watch. | Sep 01 00:35 |
| oiaohm | If you go back threw history 2 of them happened in 2002. | Sep 01 00:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Epic Fail for Vista SP2 (Not Vista 7) http://ping.fm/qIGGg | Sep 01 00:35 | |
| oiaohm | cubezzz-laptop: its also battery live a TRS-80 Model 100 supprisingly has 16 hours our 4 aa batties. | Sep 01 00:36 |
| oiaohm | Some of the more modern versions have 2 to 7 days out batteries great for field reporters. | Sep 01 00:37 |
| cubezzz-laptop | oiaohm, what would be the modern equivalent to the TRS-80 Model 100? | Sep 01 00:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Internet Explorer Shunned for Being Standards Incompetent http://ping.fm/orbOd | Sep 01 00:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ActiveX Causes Another Major Vulnerability http://ping.fm/MvUPR | Sep 01 00:38 | |
| oiaohm | I have not had to get a new one for a writer yet cubezzz-laptop. I would have to ask the reporter I know who just got a new one what brand it even is. | Sep 01 00:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apple Lets iPhones and iPods Just Keep Exploding http://ping.fm/uigcG | Sep 01 00:41 | |
| oiaohm | Ie last time I had to get one was 1993. These kinds of hardware also last for god darn arges cubezzz-laptop. | Sep 01 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Nothing strange for them to be 10 to 15 years old and still in use. | Sep 01 00:42 |
| cubezzz-laptop | impressive | Sep 01 00:42 |
| schestowitz | Radian6 is astroTurfing | Sep 01 00:43 |
| schestowitz | I know the name | Sep 01 00:43 |
| cubezzz-laptop | one of my computers is 11 years old, still runs 24/7 | Sep 01 00:43 |
| oiaohm | Remember is the editor who has to run windows or mac not the reportors. | Sep 01 00:43 |
| oiaohm | Since editor does the formating of the report. | Sep 01 00:43 |
| oiaohm | Not the reporters. | Sep 01 00:44 |
| oiaohm | Text document + images in most cases is all the editor wants. | Sep 01 00:44 |
| oiaohm | There are companies out there that refurbish tandy wp3 still. Software to transfer to windows machines including windows 7 is still mainatined even that it stoped production in 1993 | Sep 01 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Reporters are some of the worst at keeping there hardware going. It becomes a good luck charm to some of them. | Sep 01 00:50 |
| cubezzz-laptop | or the best :) | Sep 01 00:51 |
| oiaohm | Even after the item is run over by a tank they will sometime still ask if it can be repaired. | Sep 01 00:51 |
| oiaohm | Most important thing to them is battery live. | Sep 01 00:52 |
| oiaohm | when doing remote field work. | Sep 01 00:52 |
| oiaohm | None of the x86 laptops really cut it for remote work. | Sep 01 00:53 |
| cubezzz-laptop | yeah it would be interesting to know which netbook or whatever had the best battery life | Sep 01 00:53 |
| oiaohm | palm + addon keyboard has been popular with some. | Sep 01 00:53 |
| oiaohm | Same thing huge battery life | Sep 01 00:53 |
| oiaohm | if the item cannot do about 16 hours for reporters its crap. | Sep 01 00:54 |
| oiaohm | Just over 16 hours barely usable. | Sep 01 00:54 |
| oiaohm | Also since lot of reporters are touch typiest full size keyboard is a requirement. | Sep 01 00:55 |
| oiaohm | Ok full size screen no a requirement because they are not doing formating. | Sep 01 00:55 |
| cubezzz-laptop | commodore had a lcd device pretty early, not sure if it was ever released | Sep 01 00:56 |
| oiaohm | There were reporters using them cubezzz-laptop | Sep 01 00:56 |
| oiaohm | Commodores motherboards broke down with age and transport. | Sep 01 00:57 |
| cubezzz-laptop | pretty sure Toshiba had an lcd box as well... as far as I know there were very very few commodore lcd's | Sep 01 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Breaking due to transport kinda made the not popular very quickly., | Sep 01 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Toshiba one was tough. | Sep 01 00:59 |
| cubezzz-laptop | there's also a toughbook pda, expensive though | Sep 01 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Writers don't care on the expensive part that much. | Sep 01 01:00 |
| oiaohm | A few stories will cover it. | Sep 01 01:00 |
| cubezzz-laptop | just make a solar-powered box or one with a hand crank :) | Sep 01 01:02 |
| oiaohm | Reporters already kinda do. Peddle power. | Sep 01 01:02 |
| oiaohm | That way you can type and power the device. | Sep 01 01:03 |
| cubezzz-laptop | OLPC had a crank I think | Sep 01 01:03 |
| oiaohm | Not any more. | Sep 01 01:03 |
| oiaohm | They have swaped over to the sane option of peddle power. | Sep 01 01:03 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | its one of the reason I want an ARM netbook | Sep 01 01:03 |
| oiaohm | I really don't know where the insane hand crank came from. In australia our out back radios still have peddle power option. | Sep 01 01:04 |
| oiaohm | All else fails you can peddle for it and send a message. | Sep 01 01:04 |
| cubezzz-laptop | zaurus is ARM, battery life isn't too good though | Sep 01 01:04 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | also, I figure less power consumption=less cpu heating=laptop that is cooler that can actually be held in the lap without frying oneself | Sep 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Depends on what zaurus particular models had 24 hour battiery life. | Sep 01 01:05 |
| cubezzz-laptop | I got a SL-5500, but the battery is very old | Sep 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Get it repacked. | Sep 01 01:05 |
| oiaohm | The battery is shot. That one should be 12 hours. | Sep 01 01:06 |
| *cubezzz-laptop nods | Sep 01 01:06 | |
| oiaohm | With batteries of the dya. | Sep 01 01:06 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | also, less heat sometimes translates into realibility or longjevity | Sep 01 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Repacked with modern you can get 48 hours out of it | Sep 01 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Of course packed with modern required adding a new charaging circuit. | Sep 01 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Yes that is the other thing reporters are known for. | Sep 01 01:07 |
| cubezzz-laptop | even c64 had a bit of a heat problem, and that was only 1 mhz :) | Sep 01 01:07 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | heat is a killer, just look at the XBox360 as an example | Sep 01 01:08 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | not to mention what it does in the lap | Sep 01 01:08 |
| cubezzz-laptop | energy efficient designs are the future | Sep 01 01:09 |
| cubezzz-laptop | solar powered laptop could work maybe | Sep 01 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Some carry solar charging boxes. | Sep 01 01:11 |
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| oiaohm | They are more suitable because you can open them and stick them on roof rack of car / roof / where ever to charge while keeping laptop/notetaker cold. | Sep 01 01:12 |
| oiaohm | Yes the reporters travel gear is cool set of gear. | Sep 01 01:12 |
| cubezzz-laptop | I guess if you go into aphganistan you need good battery life :) | Sep 01 01:13 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | and spare batteries that can charge in external chargers | Sep 01 01:14 |
| oiaohm | War zones you don't get to setup charging in a lot of locations. | Sep 01 01:16 |
| cubezzz-laptop | they could just use the car to charge it :) | Sep 01 01:16 |
| oiaohm | Due to the fact it is a war zone. | Sep 01 01:16 |
| oiaohm | Car warzone. | Sep 01 01:16 |
| cubezzz-laptop | definitely use toughbook's for Aphganistan | Sep 01 01:16 |
| oiaohm | You want to be able to get out fast if you have to cubezzz-laptop | Sep 01 01:16 |
| *Lns has quit ("Φ") | Sep 01 01:17 | |
| cubezzz-laptop | Afghanistan even | Sep 01 01:18 |
| cubezzz-laptop | ok, I just want to say... XP is a turd | Sep 01 01:18 |
| cubezzz-laptop | it's not much better than other versions of windows | Sep 01 01:19 |
| oiaohm | Vista ? | Sep 01 01:19 |
| oiaohm | XP for stablity is worse than Windows 2000 | Sep 01 01:19 |
| cubezzz-laptop | it seems I'm always fixing windows crap-ups :-/ | Sep 01 01:19 |
| oiaohm | MS has been on a slow slide for a long time. | Sep 01 01:19 |
| oiaohm | I don't have to touch Linux boxes. | Sep 01 01:20 |
| cubezzz-laptop | I don't use it myself naturally, but my customers do | Sep 01 01:20 |
| oiaohm | I work setting up Linux servers. | Sep 01 01:21 |
| oiaohm | Most of them once set I leave alone for years at time. | Sep 01 01:21 |
| oiaohm | While taking in support contracts just in case they break. | Sep 01 01:21 |
| oiaohm | What they basically don't do. | Sep 01 01:21 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | I always get the same questions from windows users, "why is my computer running so slow, and why am I getting all these popups while not on the internet?" | Sep 01 01:23 |
| cubezzz-laptop | I got a question too, "Why does windows have 90% market share when it's a turd?" | Sep 01 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Because Unix was not interested and Apple was expensive. | Sep 01 01:25 |
| oiaohm | basically MS had no competition to speak off. | Sep 01 01:25 |
| oiaohm | defacto standard. | Sep 01 01:26 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | Both were expensive, and Dos was around before the internet was consumer friendly | Sep 01 01:26 |
| cubezzz-laptop | well there was Amiga, but Commodore borked up in 1994 :-/ | Sep 01 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Problem for MS now Linux developers are getting interested. | Sep 01 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Linux has eaten up all the supercomputer market. | Sep 01 01:26 |
| oiaohm | It now needs to find a new homes to make even more profit. | Sep 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | The desktop is in the way of Linux becoming the most dominate OS for web serving. | Sep 01 01:27 |
| cubezzz-laptop | laptops seem the next step for linux | Sep 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Linux is also targeting embeded. | Sep 01 01:27 |
| oiaohm | They are doing a embrace and extend on a larger scale than what MS ever dreamed. | Sep 01 01:28 |
| cubezzz-laptop | it's happening... I can see a good future for Linux, it's just slower than I hoped | Sep 01 01:28 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | MS uses the power of the monopoly to create lock in, and to see that Windows is installed by intimidation on OEM computers in most of the world. | Sep 01 01:28 |
| oiaohm | And MS are still doing it. | Sep 01 01:28 |
| Will__ | Windows and Linux started out on opposite ends of the spectrum. Linux was secure, stable, scalable, and great as an all purpose workhorse, but didn't start out very user/consumer friendly. Windows was easy for people to use, but not a great OS in the other areas. | Sep 01 01:29 |
| oiaohm | Volume licences for Windows Vista and Windows 7 depends on a KMS server that only runs on windows. | Sep 01 01:29 |
| Will__ | Linux has made great strides on the user friendliness area, but Windows hasn't made much of a dent in improving the security, safety, and scalability of the OS. | Sep 01 01:29 |
| oiaohm | MS market dominace comes from dos not windows. | Sep 01 01:29 |
| oiaohm | Windows was just clean up. | Sep 01 01:30 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | Will has nailed it on the security issue with Windows. | Sep 01 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Linux is only just starting on scalabity. | Sep 01 01:31 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | yes, from Dos, that is correct Oiaohm, and well put | Sep 01 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MS really never had to fight for market. | Sep 01 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MS made deals early on that all machines from a company wanted to provide dos had to pay MS as if dos was installed no matter what was installed. | Sep 01 01:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | lets just go out and buy amigas | Sep 01 01:32 |
| Will__ | oiaohm, well, I was comparing Linux to Windows on scalability. | Sep 01 01:32 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | The thinking of Bill and Steve is most likely that the inertial and lock in of MS will stop most user from moving | Sep 01 01:32 |
| cubezzz-laptop | Diablo-D3, http://softhut.com to the rescue! :) | Sep 01 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Linux scalabity will almost double in the next 12 months Will__ | Sep 01 01:32 |
| oiaohm | ksm will go in 2.6.32 at this stage. allowing memory of Linux to kinda compress. | Sep 01 01:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wonder if theres an amiga emulator out there | Sep 01 01:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: meh | Sep 01 01:33 |
| Will__ | Chips_B_Malroy: That inertia can only last so long. It is vast, but finite. | Sep 01 01:33 |
| Chips_B_Malroy | Oiaohm> real time comes in kernel 2.6.31? | Sep 01 01:33 |
| oiaohm | The kernel locking of the Linux kernel should get sorted out. | Sep 01 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Not all of real time Chips_B_Malroy | Sep 01 01:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | ksm is retarded anyhow | Sep 01 01:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | kvm should have never existed | Sep 01 01:34 |
| oiaohm | ksm is packing duplicate memory blocks. | Sep 01 01:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | ksm is doing so for kvm. | Sep 01 01:34 |
| oiaohm | It does have an advantage even for KDE. | Sep 01 01:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, its only for kvm | Sep 01 01:34 |
| oiaohm | No. | Sep 01 01:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | it doesn't do anything on machines that dont have fucktarded owners | Sep 01 01:34 |
| oiaohm | ksm can apply system wide Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | I have used it that way. | Sep 01 01:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | you'd have to have duplicate pages | Sep 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Yep most common gcc stub. | Sep 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | at the start of executables. | Sep 01 01:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't think so, Tim. | Sep 01 01:35 |
| oiaohm | There are duplicate pages cause by duplicate date in files. | Sep 01 01:36 |
| oiaohm | To be correct duplicate executable data. | Sep 01 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Its about a 1 percent memory saving. | Sep 01 01:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | in other words, useless. | Sep 01 01:37 |
| oiaohm | When working with large databases doing operations. | Sep 01 01:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wish Linus would quit adding crap to the kernel | Sep 01 01:37 |
| oiaohm | That can rise from 1 percent to around 60 percent savings. | Sep 01 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Particularly mysql. | Sep 01 01:38 |
| oiaohm | That is hiding in the backend sections of kde in places. | Sep 01 01:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | mysql is shit, however | Sep 01 01:39 |
| oiaohm | mysql is not the most effective memory using beast. | Sep 01 01:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | mysql is the least useful sql daemon I've ever had the misfortune of using | Sep 01 01:39 |
| oiaohm | ksm helps kvm and shit programs work better. | Sep 01 01:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | ksm is a stupid hack then | Sep 01 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Sep 01 01:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | what we really need is a kernel feature to identify shit programs | Sep 01 01:39 |
| oiaohm | ksm helps with that. | Sep 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | ksm packed pages are loged. | Sep 01 01:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | unless it pops up an X window and says "HA HA MYSQL IS FOR FAGS", I dont see it helping | Sep 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | So you can see programs that need help. | Sep 01 01:40 |
| Will__ | I've never dealt much with mysql, but does anyone know what the status on that is now? | Sep 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | That information is accessable threw proc. | Sep 01 01:40 |
| Will__ | Seems like there's a fork or two that might get popular soon | Sep 01 01:40 |
| oiaohm | All that is missing is a little graphical front end Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 01:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | Will__: no one wants it | Sep 01 01:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | the only people who use it are people stuck using badly written php apps | Sep 01 01:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | everyone else uses pg or oracle | Sep 01 01:41 |
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| oiaohm | ksm also helps out compcache. | Sep 01 01:42 |
| Will__ | So postgreSQL is pretty much the standard free database now? | Sep 01 01:42 |
| oiaohm | That I hope ends up mainline soon. | Sep 01 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Lets not send ram to disk. | Sep 01 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Lest compress it in ram its a nice solution. | Sep 01 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Harddisks are not known for being fast. | Sep 01 01:43 |
| oiaohm | Basically Linux ram effectiveness is going to rise. | Sep 01 01:46 |
| oiaohm | That will have a direct boost on performance. Boy does virtual memory hurt. | Sep 01 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | Will__: its the only thing I'll use | Sep 01 01:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | Will__: mysql performance no matter what you do or how hard you try will always suck | Sep 01 01:47 |
| Will__ | Diablo-D3: Thanks. I try to keep up a least a little on different areas of software. Things change over time, and I like knowing what is currently the best to learn if I ever want to do a little moonlighting or hobby work. | Sep 01 01:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, sql is sql | Sep 01 01:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | as long as you're using a sane language the choice of daemon shouldn't greatly matter | Sep 01 01:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | ie, not php | Sep 01 01:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | php doesn't have a universal sql daemon api in the box | Sep 01 01:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the one it has kinda sucks | Sep 01 01:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | perl otoh has dbi, and java has jdbc | Sep 01 01:51 |
| Will__ | I've never used php. Mostly just scripting languages and C/C++ | Sep 01 01:51 |
| oiaohm | For html work php is great. | Sep 01 01:56 |
| oiaohm | For anything else you are kinda asking for it. | Sep 01 01:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: bwahahahahaha | Sep 01 01:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | no. | Sep 01 01:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | for html work, html is great. | Sep 01 01:57 |
| oiaohm | Dynamic html Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 01:57 |
| oiaohm | Stuffed changed by databases and the like. | Sep 01 01:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | except you need to learn clean seperation between controller and view. | Sep 01 01:58 |
| oiaohm | There are the warped uses of php http://gtk.php.net/ | Sep 01 01:58 |
| oiaohm | PHP does it was designed for quite well. | Sep 01 01:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | php was not designed | Sep 01 01:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | please do not spread that myth | Sep 01 01:59 |
| oiaohm | PHP and old ASP follow the same basic design. | Sep 01 02:02 |
| oiaohm | Code inside html that is a nice feature. | Sep 01 02:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, and its a bad one. | Sep 01 02:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats a bad feature | Sep 01 02:02 |
| oiaohm | So you are one of these who think the .net way is right. | Sep 01 02:03 |
| oiaohm | Split the display and the code form so you cannot see clear alignment between the two. | Sep 01 02:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | uh, how so? | Sep 01 02:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | .net doesn't implement anything there because asp.net doesn't actually exist | Sep 01 02:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | its just a figment of your imagination | Sep 01 02:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is a no troll zone | Sep 01 02:05 |
| oiaohm | I could have said java. | Sep 01 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | and you wouldn't have made any sense | Sep 01 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | anyhow, I suggest you learn how mvc works | Sep 01 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | and quit coding shit | Sep 01 02:05 |
| oiaohm | I know how MVC works. | Sep 01 02:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | code inside templates suck | Sep 01 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | it sucked when php did it | Sep 01 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | it sucked when asp did it | Sep 01 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | it sucked when jsp did it | Sep 01 02:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it'll suck tommorow when some other fucktard decides to do it | Sep 01 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Means not to limit html it provides and not having to edit large ammounts of program to correct minor html errors is its advantage. | Sep 01 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Also it can be suprising effective on memory usage. | Sep 01 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | both are false, please stop spreading fud. | Sep 01 02:08 |
| oiaohm | What are you using. | Sep 01 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | java. | Sep 01 02:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | and why automatically assume the code is split? | Sep 01 02:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | controllers _can_ output html | Sep 01 02:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | they just can't _be_ html | Sep 01 02:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | although outputting html directly is rather wasteful, client side xslt seems to be the way to go | Sep 01 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Without running the program it is harder to get quick over view of what will be generated in a non template model. | Sep 01 02:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | wrong. | Sep 01 02:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | please learn to code | Sep 01 02:11 |
| oiaohm | Use dreamweaver some time Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 02:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | why would I do something stupid like that? | Sep 01 02:11 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: watch the language | Sep 01 02:11 |
| oiaohm | It use using html overview editing of code. | Sep 01 02:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | it also produces crap useless html | Sep 01 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Ie build final look you want and work back to active page. | Sep 01 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Its a quite fast method. | Sep 01 02:13 |
| oiaohm | It backwards to the way you most likely do it. | Sep 01 02:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a very slow method | Sep 01 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Its not a slow method. | Sep 01 02:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd have to rewrite all the html to be functional and standards compliant | Sep 01 02:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | dreamweaver is crap | Sep 01 02:13 |
| oiaohm | I did not say the code out put of dreamweaver was clean. | Sep 01 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | anything that causes me more work is useless | Sep 01 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Its the most common program people have access to see the using template method. | Sep 01 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Sep 01 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | a text editor is the most common program | Sep 01 02:14 |
| oiaohm | In the correct way. | Sep 01 02:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | html is extremely simple, I suggest people actually learn it | Sep 01 02:14 |
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| oiaohm | PHP and the other template langages are design so peson codes html then upgrades it to a dynamic page. | Sep 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | So avoiding having large ammounts of back ground code. | Sep 01 02:15 |
| oiaohm | So lowering risk of coding errors. | Sep 01 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, which is caused being lazy | Sep 01 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | lazy coders produce crap, generally | Sep 01 02:16 |
| oiaohm | More code to do task is worse. | Sep 01 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | wrong | Sep 01 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Its right. | Sep 01 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | more time spent maintaining crap is far worse | Sep 01 02:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | doing it right the first time means never having to fix it later | Sep 01 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Not true. | Sep 01 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Nothing things change over time causing what was perfect once to be problems latter. | Sep 01 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Would have to be true for what you said to be true Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | things generally don't change that way | Sep 01 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | dynamic websites over the past decade generally all do the same things over and over and over again | Sep 01 02:18 |
| oiaohm | More code harder they are to find when they do. | Sep 01 02:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | and they continue to use the same bad techniques over and over | Sep 01 02:18 |
| oiaohm | You are saving on one hand that will cost you on another. | Sep 01 02:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all. | Sep 01 02:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | I am saving on both hands and saving some on my feet too | Sep 01 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Have you used php compliers. | Sep 01 02:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't use slow languages like php | Sep 01 02:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | its pointless | Sep 01 02:20 |
| oiaohm | PHP converted to native is not slower than java its faster. | Sep 01 02:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | bwahahahahahah | Sep 01 02:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh wow | Sep 01 02:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | I lol'd | Sep 01 02:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: seriously, you're usually not this stupid, quit. | Sep 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Sorry it is Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | The processing engine in php is a temp advantage. | Sep 01 02:21 |
| oiaohm | To java. | Sep 01 02:22 |
| oiaohm | I guess you forget what java was like before it had JIT. | Sep 01 02:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | why bring up old versions of java? | Sep 01 02:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm not using old shit, its irrelevant. | Sep 01 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Because the tech in current PHP is the same. | Sep 01 02:23 |
| oiaohm | The advantages you see are nothing more than an engine limitation. | Sep 01 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Not a language one. | Sep 01 02:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | but php, syntax wise, is absolute crap | Sep 01 02:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | please stop polluting the internet | Sep 01 02:24 |
| oiaohm | How | Sep 01 02:24 |
| oiaohm | Note I use to code in dbase. PHP is not that nasty. | Sep 01 02:24 |
| oiaohm | php uses small ammounts of code to do a lot. Every language has different syntax styles that people either like or hate. | Sep 01 02:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | php is about repeating yourself multiple times because php has basically no standard libary | Sep 01 02:26 |
| oiaohm | php has includes. | Sep 01 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Core C does not have a standard libary you have to use either. | Sep 01 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Same with java. | Sep 01 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Only issue with it missing is lacking a built form causes processing load. | Sep 01 02:28 |
| oiaohm | Again engine limitation nothing more. | Sep 01 02:28 |
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| oiaohm | Its the problem I have people cannot assess program langange syntax and style independant to its engine limiations. | Sep 01 02:31 |
| oiaohm | You assessments of php are the same as the 1995 assements of java vs the most evil web coding language on earth perl. Where perl was said to be better. Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 02:33 |
| oiaohm | By the way Diablo-D3 there is a thrid party database independance libs. adodb | Sep 01 02:43 |
| oiaohm | for php. | Sep 01 02:43 |
| oiaohm | Just lot of php coders choose not to use it. | Sep 01 02:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | I said it exists | Sep 01 02:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | I also said no one uses it | Sep 01 02:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | php is dead imo | Sep 01 02:44 |
| oiaohm | php will be around for a long time to come. | Sep 01 02:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | it will continue to suck for a long time to come, yes | Sep 01 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Same was said about java back in history too. | Sep 01 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Issue with php is engine releated not the language itself. | Sep 01 02:48 |
| oiaohm | in my eyes. | Sep 01 02:48 |
| oiaohm | engine issues can be fixed. If it was core language design that would not be fixable. | Sep 01 02:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | the language is shit, dude | Sep 01 02:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | worst syntax ever | Sep 01 02:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | and php itself contains nothing useful | Sep 01 02:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | php was designed to be perl lite | Sep 01 02:49 |
| oiaohm | Core C Diablo-D3? | Sep 01 02:49 |
| oiaohm | Have you used just core C before. | Sep 01 02:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | in other words, they took everything out of perl that made perl worth using | Sep 01 02:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | why are you defending php anyhow? | Sep 01 02:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | being a php shill is worse than being a microsoft shill | Sep 01 02:50 |
| oiaohm | perl without cpan is not that great either. | Sep 01 02:50 |
| oiaohm | php without pear makes life hard. | Sep 01 02:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | pear might as well not exist | Sep 01 02:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | no one uses it | Sep 01 02:51 |
| oiaohm | That is kinda wrong. | Sep 01 02:51 |
| oiaohm | Lot of larger web apps do. | Sep 01 02:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | there are very few widespread php apps | Sep 01 02:51 |
| oiaohm | Its lot of the new php coders who don't. As they get experisned they learn the pear is simpler. | Sep 01 02:52 |
| oiaohm | Same applies to java coders as well. | Sep 01 02:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | as they get experienced they learn a real language | Sep 01 02:52 |
| oiaohm | Not true Diablo-D3. | Sep 01 02:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, very true | Sep 01 02:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | if they keep using php, I dont care if they use it for 15 years, they're not experienced. | Sep 01 02:52 |
| oiaohm | I could say the same about java coders. | Sep 01 02:53 |
| oiaohm | The you could say the same about C coders. | Sep 01 02:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Sep 01 02:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | c and java are real languages | Sep 01 02:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | php istn | Sep 01 02:53 |
| oiaohm | Until you get to the point that the only experienced people are using bytecode. | Sep 01 02:53 |
| oiaohm | Who is trollish here Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 02:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | you are, frankly | Sep 01 02:54 |
| oiaohm | Language is Language. | Sep 01 02:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | its quite obvious you've never coded on anything big a day in your life | Sep 01 02:54 |
| oiaohm | I have worked with PHP and Java. I am a code debugger. Picking up all the nasty times thing change causing code to not be functional. | Sep 01 02:55 |
| oiaohm | And having to repair the code. | Sep 01 02:55 |
| oiaohm | I would say PHP is far more pleasent since it simple to split the PHP and html code to work out what one has the bug. | Sep 01 02:56 |
| oiaohm | The difference between coder and debugger Diablo-D3. I purely want the least and cleanest code. | Sep 01 02:57 |
| oiaohm | Worst thing I have ever tried to debug is wine itself. | Sep 01 02:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | no | Sep 01 02:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | the difference between a perl coder and the rest of the world is a perl coder wants the least and cleanest code | Sep 01 02:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | clearly you're not a perl coder | Sep 01 02:58 |
| oiaohm | perl has means of making not readable code. | Sep 01 02:58 |
| oiaohm | Again not what debuging people want. | Sep 01 02:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, people have the means of making code not readable | Sep 01 02:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | you can do it in any language, perl does not make it especially hard | Sep 01 02:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | er, esspecially easy | Sep 01 02:59 |
| oiaohm | It the syntax of perl. | Sep 01 02:59 |
| oiaohm | It makes it very easy to create code that can be miss read. | Sep 01 03:00 |
| oiaohm | So making debugging harder. | Sep 01 03:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | bwahahah | Sep 01 03:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | no. | Sep 01 03:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | less fud | Sep 01 03:00 |
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| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: do you really want some examples. If so the next time I am debugging perl that has screwed up I will keep the notes. Perl is insanly simple to overlap internal functions and not get warnings. | Sep 01 03:03 |
| oiaohm | So program starts miss behaving because some code did that. | Sep 01 03:04 |
| oiaohm | That is a language syntax error. | Sep 01 03:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not true | Sep 01 03:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | a perl program or module that does not start with "use strict; use warnings;" is incorrectly written. | Sep 01 03:07 |
| oiaohm | And why does perl allow a program to be created with out that. | Sep 01 03:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | because people bitched very loudly when it broke their programs | Sep 01 03:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | 6 will have it on by default | Sep 01 03:09 |
| oiaohm | There is still a use in perl 6 to turn it off. | Sep 01 03:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | probably not | Sep 01 03:09 |
| oiaohm | There is. | Sep 01 03:09 |
| oiaohm | You can apply it part way threw a program | Sep 01 03:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not perl's job to stop you from hanging yourself. | Sep 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | So use strict at top. | Sep 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | Turn it off half way threw. | Sep 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | nasty for debuging. | Sep 01 03:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | [10:18:43] <Diablo-D3> its not perl's job to stop you from hanging yourself. | Sep 01 03:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | and as I said earlier, perl doesn't make buggy code, people do. | Sep 01 03:10 |
| oiaohm | Ie people doing debug like language that pervent people from hang self as often. | Sep 01 03:11 |
| oiaohm | And hate those that kinda don't. | Sep 01 03:11 |
| oiaohm | Does it now make sence why perl is not like by me. | Sep 01 03:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont actually care what you like or dont | Sep 01 03:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | you like php, you're braindead | Sep 01 03:13 |
| oiaohm | No matter how good you write a program it will always be broken by someone. | Sep 01 03:16 |
| oiaohm | Then someone like me will have to fix it. | Sep 01 03:16 |
| oiaohm | python I even prefer over java. | Sep 01 03:16 |
| oiaohm | I don't know what is with java coders and the over use of classes. | Sep 01 03:17 |
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| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm fails it, as usual | Sep 01 03:18 |
| oiaohm | Different point of view Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 03:19 |
| oiaohm | I class your line as a high risk of failures and being harder and more time consuming to fix and bring back on line. | Sep 01 03:20 |
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| oiaohm | PHP is more design that site be self contained. There are advantages to the PHP way of not having a huge runtime. Not as like to global nuke . Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 03:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | self contained == repeat yourself constantly | Sep 01 03:22 |
| oiaohm | Really as a coder what stops you from having a runtime you ship with the sites you develop Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 03:23 |
| oiaohm | So as a coder you don't repeat constantly. | Sep 01 03:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: woah shit dude | Sep 01 03:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | that takes work | Sep 01 03:24 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Sep 01 03:24 |
| oiaohm | What is pear about. | Sep 01 03:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | why the fuck would I want to write code that already exists | Sep 01 03:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, MOST OF IT | Sep 01 03:24 |
| oiaohm | Who said you wrote the runtime. | Sep 01 03:25 |
| oiaohm | You would have to be nuts to do that. | Sep 01 03:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of new php coders are that nuts. | Sep 01 03:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | wordpress was written by new php coders | Sep 01 03:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | so was mediawiki | Sep 01 03:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | keep that in mind | Sep 01 03:26 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the wordpress ones have grown up and now use items like pear to avoid having to duplicate up. | Sep 01 03:26 |
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| oiaohm | PHP gives you the option to duplicate up. | Sep 01 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Just like any language does including java. | Sep 01 03:27 |
| oiaohm | If you choose to take the path of duplicating up without need you are just inexperinced with the language. | Sep 01 03:28 |
| oiaohm | If you are finding your self constantly repeating code in any modern coding language you are using it wrong. | Sep 01 03:30 |
| oiaohm | So its not grounds to say a langauge is bad if it just your lack of skill with it. | Sep 01 03:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | it is, however, grounds to say a language is bad if lots of people lack skill with it | Sep 01 03:34 |
| oiaohm | No lots of people lack skill at using java and c++ well as well. | Sep 01 03:34 |
| oiaohm | I just find from debuging java people annoy me at over stacking classes. | Sep 01 03:35 |
| oiaohm | Simple program that should only be 1 class deep some of them manage to get lost while coding and end up with 5 to 8 classes deep. | Sep 01 03:36 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because of java runtime. | Sep 01 03:36 |
| oiaohm | Internally is stacked. Something that makes debugging annoying. | Sep 01 03:37 |
| oiaohm | I prefer no runtime to a stacked runtime with debugging. | Sep 01 03:38 |
| oiaohm | More levels of stacking you have more risk that 1 of those levels can get damaged causing multiable errrors to appear that appear not releated. | Sep 01 03:44 |
| oiaohm | And cost ages to track down. | Sep 01 03:44 |
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| oiaohm | I would really like a langauge that run script and can convert to native on fly. Mostly debugging make it faster no waiting around for complier to get job done. Always with having to debug a borked site person want it fixed yesterday. | Sep 01 04:06 |
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| oiaohm | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzQ5OA Ok Late but X11 is coming. | Sep 01 04:32 |
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| twitter1 | Bong continues a 2 year M$ tradition of forged referring pages that include porn http://searchengineland.com/bing-continues-with-fake-referrers-what-part-of-stop-dont-they-understand-24589 | Sep 01 04:44 |
| twitter1 | malicious in their failures | Sep 01 04:46 |
| twitter1 | Office worker bemoans M$ stronghold on corporate IT http://slate.com/id/2226279 | Sep 01 05:11 |
| twitter1 | forced to use Outlook and IE 6. Poor thing thinks Gmail changed their life, they have no idea how small their world is. | Sep 01 05:13 |
| twitter1 | Long ago, RMS warned that non free software is demoralizing. | Sep 01 05:16 |
| twitter1 | People kept from helping themselves are less happy and productive than those who can fix things they way they like. | Sep 01 05:17 |
| oiaohm | The stronghold is only cracked its not fully broken yet. | Sep 01 05:22 |
| twitter1 | The excuse given by the State Department was that patching and updating their computers was so expensive they could not afford Firefox. | Sep 01 05:22 |
| oiaohm | The day the stronghold is fully broken will be the time to party. | Sep 01 05:22 |
| twitter1 | Perhaps they should use a system that's not so expensive to patch. | Sep 01 05:23 |
| twitter1 | M$ failures used as an excuse to stay M$ only. | Sep 01 05:23 |
| twitter1 | Pathetic. | Sep 01 05:23 |
| oiaohm | Not really it shows you how strong the lock in is. | Sep 01 05:24 |
| oiaohm | Firefox would have to be audited before goverment usage. | Sep 01 05:24 |
| oiaohm | Really making MS software so time consuming and money eating to patch is really just a nasty form of vendor lockin. | Sep 01 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Really I would not like the see the total global bill MS windows is costing. | Sep 01 05:27 |
| twitter1 | lol, at least you can do an audit of FF. I doubt any such thing is done for Winblows and IE. -> oiaohm: Firefox would have to be audited before goverment usage. | Sep 01 05:27 |
| oiaohm | Scary it is twitter1 | Sep 01 05:29 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, at least they are being challenged in huge way on netbooks etc.( linux on flashc hip),,desktops shrug haven't seen latest figures | Sep 01 05:30 |
| oiaohm | MS has to release source code to inspecting by USA goverment and most other goverments so it can be used. | Sep 01 05:30 |
| oiaohm | When you know that windows source code has been independantally audited it so distusting that it still such a huge mother of a mess. | Sep 01 05:31 |
| oiaohm | Firefox on redhat is audited. | Sep 01 05:32 |
| oiaohm | Due to USA goverment rules the windows version is not classed as audited. | Sep 01 05:32 |
| oiaohm | Yes the hell of goverment red tape twitter1 | Sep 01 05:32 |
| oiaohm | The sad thing is the rules of the audit got altered to cover process of development not the quality of code as well in the USA twitter1 | Sep 01 05:38 |
| oiaohm | You sorce points under the USA audit for having a design document even if you don't follow it. | Sep 01 05:39 |
| neighborlee | source code of what ? | Sep 01 05:39 |
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| neighborlee | audited for what? | Sep 01 05:39 |
| neighborlee | wth ;) | Sep 01 05:39 |
| oiaohm | Windows has a usa goverment classification for being audited. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaluation_Assurance_Level to EAL4 | Sep 01 05:41 |
| oiaohm | Firefox under redhat and suse is classified to EAL4 | Sep 01 05:42 |
| oiaohm | Under windows no classified as EAL4 | Sep 01 05:42 |
| oiaohm | Yes completely nuts. | Sep 01 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: Windows Server has much higher default security settings than Windows XP, Vista, 7, etc | Sep 01 05:44 |
| oiaohm | XP and Windows server have the same level EAL | Sep 01 05:44 |
| DaemonFC | to the point where it takes about an hour of configuration to make it usable as a desktop OS | Sep 01 05:44 |
| oiaohm | Because the EAL system is about process of development. | Sep 01 05:44 |
| DaemonFC | because that's not what it's meant to be used for | Sep 01 05:45 |
| oiaohm | not quality of end product. | Sep 01 05:45 |
| oiaohm | EAL replaced the old system that use to review the secuirty of the OS core. | Sep 01 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | Windows Server also lets you install a command prompt only installation | Sep 01 05:45 |
| oiaohm | and of course USA has been a sitting duck since then. | Sep 01 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | without the Explorer shell, DirectX, Internet Explorer, etc | Sep 01 05:45 |
| oiaohm | Does not make any difference in the current day USA rating system DaemonFC | Sep 01 05:46 |
| oiaohm | Would have in the prior rating system. | Sep 01 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | well, if you are going to use it as a server, it would be a good idea to use the minimal installation | Sep 01 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | reduces the attack surface by over 70% if I recall correctly | Sep 01 05:47 |
| DaemonFC | you can still call up programs with the command prompt, or Powershell if you want to use that | Sep 01 05:48 |
| DaemonFC | Well, I don't know if I would call RHEL or Suse any more secure than Windows Server | Sep 01 05:49 |
| oiaohm | Under the old rating system RHEL and SUSE are. | Sep 01 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | most people think Windows and something like XP comes to mind where all the security has been turned off and all the services are on | Sep 01 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | and all users are administrators | Sep 01 05:49 |
| oiaohm | Windows secuirty core does not implement MAC fully enough. | Sep 01 05:49 |
| oiaohm | So under the old system were lower rating that RHEL or SUSE. | Sep 01 05:50 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft's enterprise level support is a lot better than what you get when you go to Walmart and buy Vista, obviously | Sep 01 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | their support contracts usually state a much stricter turnaround time for patches, for example | Sep 01 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | the government is probably rating them on things like that | Sep 01 05:51 |
| oiaohm | I am talking from a pure tech point of view on user to user isolation. | Sep 01 05:52 |
| oiaohm | There will always be holes. | Sep 01 05:52 |
| twitter1 | FEM look at shell shock http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/blog/index.cfm?postid=6862223523768708113 | Sep 01 05:52 |
| DaemonFC | well, Server boots you up as Administrator with UAC turned off | Sep 01 05:52 |
| oiaohm | Goal of isolation is to make the process of extracting data from a hole as hard as possiable. | Sep 01 05:53 |
| twitter1 | perhaps there's something to "commotion" after all. | Sep 01 05:53 |
| DaemonFC | it's kind of figuring you'll use that account to setup the system and then never really log into it like that again | Sep 01 05:53 |
| oiaohm | UAC is not MAC. | Sep 01 05:53 |
| oiaohm | Its only like half a MAC. | Sep 01 05:53 |
| DaemonFC | and MAC is usually either useless (AppArmor) | Sep 01 05:53 |
| oiaohm | True MAC wraps around all services you are using. | Sep 01 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | or you watch all your programs die and malfunction in horrible ways (SELinux) | Sep 01 05:54 |
| twitter1 | perhaps it's a cover for PTSD that people will always suffer when they see their neighbors blown to bits. | Sep 01 05:54 |
| oiaohm | AppArmor fails does not count under the old system. | Sep 01 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | I usually call it CrappArmor | Sep 01 05:54 |
| oiaohm | Selinux and smack both passed. | Sep 01 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | it's a total sham | Sep 01 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu is using it :) | Sep 01 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | even though Novell is probably going to ditch it eventually | Sep 01 05:55 |
| oiaohm | That is the sad thing Ubuntu can get EAL4 | Sep 01 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | they already fired the development team a while back | Sep 01 05:55 |
| oiaohm | Even that under the old system it would barly get a rating due to default of apparmor. | Sep 01 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | SELinux is not a good thing | Sep 01 05:55 |
| oiaohm | SELinux is a good thing. | Sep 01 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | it just adds complication and the policies are difficult to implement and debug | Sep 01 05:55 |
| oiaohm | It is a true MAC. | Sep 01 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | Tomoyo is probably where you want to be | Sep 01 05:56 |
| oiaohm | No MAC is 100 percent friendly. | Sep 01 05:56 |
| DaemonFC | SELinux is not meant to be used by human beings | Sep 01 05:56 |
| oiaohm | Tomoyo is a low rating that selinux. | Sep 01 05:56 |
| oiaohm | SELinux was designed for truly secure systems. | Sep 01 05:56 |
| DaemonFC | Red Hat has to make a policy that only kills "some" of your applications and leaves most of the system unprotected | Sep 01 05:56 |
| oiaohm | Ie high rating. | Sep 01 05:56 |
| DaemonFC | or else the entire system becomes impossible to use | Sep 01 05:57 |
| DaemonFC | and it's not friendly with some file systems | Sep 01 05:57 |
| oiaohm | Again not true. | Sep 01 05:57 |
| oiaohm | There is just not need to protect all. | Sep 01 05:57 |
| DaemonFC | (JFS, ReiserFS) | Sep 01 05:57 |
| DaemonFC | all and all, I'd call SELinux unreasonable | Sep 01 05:57 |
| DaemonFC | by the time it provides much protection, the system is unusable and all your applications are crashing over benign operations | Sep 01 05:58 |
| oiaohm | Highest secuirty avaibale all forms are unreasonable for general users. | Sep 01 05:58 |
| oiaohm | For secure data stores different matter. | Sep 01 05:58 |
| oiaohm | You normally don't have a broad range of applications on them. | Sep 01 05:59 |
| DaemonFC | I'd call impossible to maintain and high support costs due to SELinux as at least equally bad to the Windows Server lack of MAC | Sep 01 05:59 |
| oiaohm | So handling something as picky as selinux is not a major headache. | Sep 01 05:59 |
| oiaohm | Not impossiable. | Sep 01 05:59 |
| DaemonFC | they need to come up with something that's a lot easier to support, or just forget it | Sep 01 05:59 |
| oiaohm | Have you used selinux with utils to manage it. | Sep 01 05:59 |
| oiaohm | I guess not. | Sep 01 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | Yeah, it's a joke | Sep 01 06:00 |
| oiaohm | selinux has a learning mode. | Sep 01 06:00 |
| oiaohm | With the right untils. | Sep 01 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | and the "targeted" policy loves to kill your Wine programs | Sep 01 06:00 |
| oiaohm | Really | Sep 01 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | but occasionally even things that came with Fedora will die for no reason | Sep 01 06:00 |
| oiaohm | Thinking I run Wine with selinux all the time DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | SELinux loves to kill Tomboy for some reason | Sep 01 06:00 |
| oiaohm | I can answer that one. | Sep 01 06:01 |
| DaemonFC | I've even had it shut down Gedit and I lost all my unsaved work | Sep 01 06:01 |
| oiaohm | Fedora 10 right. | Sep 01 06:01 |
| oiaohm | Fedora developers also need to learn leave the selinux rules alone at times. | Sep 01 06:01 |
| DaemonFC | 8, 9, and 10 | Sep 01 06:01 |
| DaemonFC | it's about equally painful in all of them | Sep 01 06:01 |
| oiaohm | Someone added a forbid function to the debian selinux rule in 8 on Gedit | Sep 01 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | Fedora 7 didn't seem to be as bad about it | Sep 01 06:02 |
| oiaohm | Fedora 7 had pure debian selinux rules. | Sep 01 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | most people get sick of it and just install Fedora without SELinux | Sep 01 06:02 |
| oiaohm | Non played with. | Sep 01 06:02 |
| oiaohm | That is fedora. | Sep 01 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | well, a security system isn't any good at all if you piss people off and they disable it | Sep 01 06:03 |
| oiaohm | Some how I think redhat screwed with fedora selinux rules to try to get people buying the commerical that works. | Sep 01 06:03 |
| DaemonFC | using Fedora commercially is a very bad idea | Sep 01 06:03 |
| DaemonFC | it's not against the license, just common sense | Sep 01 06:04 |
| oiaohm | Windows secuirty system is worse. | Sep 01 06:04 |
| oiaohm | Applications can ask what can I access and windows answers. | Sep 01 06:04 |
| oiaohm | So an attacker can move around system perfectly not hitting any alarms. | Sep 01 06:04 |
| oiaohm | The issue of a MAC is that a MAC never tells application where its limits are. | Sep 01 06:05 |
| oiaohm | When an application hits a limit it gets killed. | Sep 01 06:06 |
| DaemonFC | web browsers insisting upon running extensions have been the doorway to virtually all Windows malware of the last 10 years | Sep 01 06:06 |
| oiaohm | This is true secuirty threw obsecuirty. | Sep 01 06:06 |
| DaemonFC | the runner up would probably be "freeware" that bundles spyware | Sep 01 06:06 |
| oiaohm | No runner up is email. | Sep 01 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Then freeware that bundles spyware. | Sep 01 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | not necessarily true | Sep 01 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Over the last 10 years yes. | Sep 01 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | no email client runs scripts by default anymore, do they? | Sep 01 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Last 2 maybe the other way. | Sep 01 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | not even Outlook Express on XP does that | Sep 01 06:07 |
| oiaohm | No but lots of people still open like .doc files from email. | Sep 01 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | which is why your virus scanner scans your email as it comes in | Sep 01 06:08 |
| oiaohm | Without scanning them. | Sep 01 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | before you get a chance to open it | Sep 01 06:08 |
| oiaohm | and into a program set to run macros. | Sep 01 06:08 |
| oiaohm | Because they get sick of the notice do you want to run macros. | Sep 01 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | Yeah, but unless you use MS Office or Star Office, you don't have those kinds of problems | Sep 01 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | OpenOffice.org has no support for Microsoft Office macros | Sep 01 06:09 |
| oiaohm | Incorrect DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:09 |
| DaemonFC | it has its own Macros that are just as dangerous, but nobody uses them | Sep 01 06:09 |
| oiaohm | OpenOffice has part support for MS macros. | Sep 01 06:09 |
| oiaohm | Bar virus writers DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:09 |
| DaemonFC | StarOffice can recompile Microsoft Office macros into StarBasic | Sep 01 06:09 |
| oiaohm | And some office traded excel and word games. | Sep 01 06:09 |
| DaemonFC | that's dangerous | Sep 01 06:09 |
| oiaohm | Your not telling me anything. | Sep 01 06:10 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think OOo has that though | Sep 01 06:10 |
| DaemonFC | it was listed as one of the things you got with StarOffice that wasn't in OOo | Sep 01 06:10 |
| oiaohm | OOo in 3.x and up has some MS to starbasic converion. | Sep 01 06:10 |
| oiaohm | In the default package. | Sep 01 06:11 |
| oiaohm | But it does ask. | Sep 01 06:11 |
| oiaohm | and there is no way to turn off asking. | Sep 01 06:11 |
| DaemonFC | doesn't help you if someone doesn't understand the question | Sep 01 06:11 |
| DaemonFC | I mean, tens of thousands of people ran loveletter.txt.vbs | Sep 01 06:11 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 01 06:11 |
| DaemonFC | people are pretty ignorant | Sep 01 06:12 |
| oiaohm | out going macros don't get translated. | Sep 01 06:12 |
| oiaohm | So most MS office viruses die the big one in OpenOffice. | Sep 01 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Email is secound. Due to all the difference crap screen saves infected pdf's.. Infected docs.... Basically if you can send it by email infected someone has. | Sep 01 06:13 |
| oiaohm | Next is crap applications. | Sep 01 06:14 |
| oiaohm | Then next is usb from home. | Sep 01 06:14 |
| oiaohm | Or other removalbe media. | Sep 01 06:14 |
| oiaohm | No matter how much you tell staff to scan them they don't. | Sep 01 06:14 |
| DaemonFC | so in most cases, probably 95% or more, it's due to stupid user | Sep 01 06:15 |
| DaemonFC | or no antivirus monitoring the dangerous attachments and macros they run | Sep 01 06:15 |
| oiaohm | Simplest way still to break into a few businesses is leave a few infected usb keys around the lunch area. | Sep 01 06:15 |
| DaemonFC | or the USB devices they plug in | Sep 01 06:15 |
| DaemonFC | or the crapware they install | Sep 01 06:15 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 01 06:15 |
| oiaohm | People will plug them in to find out whos usb key it is. | Sep 01 06:15 |
| oiaohm | So much for all the set up firewall.s | Sep 01 06:16 |
| DaemonFC | and Windows 7 doesn't use the autorun.inf if present | Sep 01 06:16 |
| DaemonFC | Vista and XP would, but you can turn that off | Sep 01 06:16 |
| DaemonFC | granted that was a pretty stupid default considering how viruses spread | Sep 01 06:16 |
| oiaohm | That is incorrect. | Sep 01 06:16 |
| oiaohm | You can turn it off under XP but its a trip to hell. | Sep 01 06:16 |
| DaemonFC | Windows Server has always had autorun turned off for things like that | Sep 01 06:16 |
| DaemonFC | it's a setting in the control panel | Sep 01 06:17 |
| DaemonFC | or one change to a registry key | Sep 01 06:17 |
| oiaohm | Its got to be turned off in 6 different places in the registry in XP for it to stay off. | Sep 01 06:17 |
| DaemonFC | I've never had that issue | Sep 01 06:17 |
| oiaohm | And a restore point made. | Sep 01 06:17 |
| oiaohm | So it don't roll it back with a restore point. | Sep 01 06:17 |
| DaemonFC | System Restore has traditionally been a gigantic waste of hard drive space | Sep 01 06:18 |
| oiaohm | System Restore has been the worlds most useless and biggest headache. | Sep 01 06:18 |
| DaemonFC | it works better in Windows 7, I've tried it, it's just hooking into the volume shadow service anyway so it's not the same System Restore as XP | Sep 01 06:18 |
| oiaohm | Particularly thinking windows update uses it. | Sep 01 06:18 |
| oiaohm | shadow service is appearing in a few Linux filesystems. | Sep 01 06:19 |
| DaemonFC | the Home editions of Windows still have the old system restore features, but the backend is a limtied version of VSS | Sep 01 06:19 |
| DaemonFC | *limited | Sep 01 06:19 |
| oiaohm | I like nilfs better. | Sep 01 06:19 |
| oiaohm | its more useful than system restore. | Sep 01 06:19 |
| DaemonFC | the Professional and Ultimate versions have proper backup and recovery options | Sep 01 06:19 |
| oiaohm | nilfs can dig you out of all recent operations. | Sep 01 06:20 |
| DaemonFC | so you can unfuck the system even if the System Restore feature in the Home version wouldn't help you | Sep 01 06:20 |
| oiaohm | Opps I just edited a file then deleted it and I want the edited copy. | Sep 01 06:20 |
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| oiaohm | nilfs will help you out of that. | Sep 01 06:20 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 98 had a utility I liked a lot better than System Restore | Sep 01 06:21 |
| oiaohm | volume shadows are a very limited way of doing it not that directly helpful to end user. | Sep 01 06:21 |
| DaemonFC | it could back up the registry and restore it, that's all it did | Sep 01 06:21 |
| DaemonFC | most of the time, it is a registry problem | Sep 01 06:21 |
| oiaohm | Also broke crap loads a times. | Sep 01 06:21 |
| DaemonFC | and System restore doesn't? :D | Sep 01 06:22 |
| oiaohm | MS tried doing halfway between what nilfs is and a normal system with system restore. | Sep 01 06:22 |
| DaemonFC | System Restore doesn't just magically take you back in time to when the system worked right | Sep 01 06:22 |
| oiaohm | nilfs is logging filesystem. | Sep 01 06:22 |
| oiaohm | So when you snapshot is the complete disk. | Sep 01 06:22 |
| DaemonFC | you always end up in some undefined state and it leaves a mess of programs laying around that don't work right anymore because they were installed after that restore point was made | Sep 01 06:23 |
| oiaohm | Nicer nilfs is smart enough to sort out new from old. | Sep 01 06:23 |
| oiaohm | Because its truely filesystem level. | Sep 01 06:23 |
| oiaohm | Basically system restore is kinda above the filesystem trying to do a filesystem job and failing big time. | Sep 01 06:23 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 7 backs up more stuff and so I think that's why it tends to work more often | Sep 01 06:23 |
| oiaohm | Other thing nilfs is copy on write. | Sep 01 06:24 |
| oiaohm | So it don't screw up and backup same file mult times. | Sep 01 06:24 |
| DaemonFC | it would be nice if they could put snapshots into NTFS | Sep 01 06:24 |
| oiaohm | That is where it should be. | Sep 01 06:24 |
| DaemonFC | but even most Linux users don't have that | Sep 01 06:24 |
| DaemonFC | and won't for a long time | Sep 01 06:24 |
| DaemonFC | couple years anyway | Sep 01 06:24 |
| oiaohm | if you call 12 months a long time. | Sep 01 06:25 |
| oiaohm | I use nilfs now DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:25 |
| DaemonFC | I doubt btrfs will be something anyone is using in 12 months | Sep 01 06:25 |
| oiaohm | xfs also has snapshoting. | Sep 01 06:25 |
| oiaohm | Yes Linux kernel can already do it. | Sep 01 06:25 |
| DaemonFC | who uses that? | Sep 01 06:25 |
| oiaohm | Just not with the default filesystems. | Sep 01 06:26 |
| DaemonFC | most people don't even know what a file system is and just dump the system onto whatever the installer is defaulting to | Sep 01 06:26 |
| oiaohm | lvm can also snapshot filesystems. | Sep 01 06:26 |
| DaemonFC | (Ubuntu users) | Sep 01 06:26 |
| oiaohm | Again it just a simple case Linux can do it no interface. | Sep 01 06:26 |
| oiaohm | Server guys have been using it for a while. | Sep 01 06:26 |
| oiaohm | http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_lvm_snapshots << There is the instructions for the lvm way you can use for ubuntu DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:28 |
| oiaohm | Basically add a gui and Linux is perfectly equal or better in the snapshot functionality. | Sep 01 06:29 |
| oiaohm | One thing that is smart about the lvm snapshots is multi mounting. | Sep 01 06:30 |
| DaemonFC | LVM will be less painful when Grub 2 takes over | Sep 01 06:30 |
| oiaohm | so you can have new and old mounted. | Sep 01 06:30 |
| DaemonFC | GRUB right now is being held together by bird droppings and good intentions | Sep 01 06:31 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not even sure if you can have LVM on Ext4 and boot using GRUB | Sep 01 06:31 |
| oiaohm | Grub 2 change over is the next 12 months as well. | Sep 01 06:31 |
| DaemonFC | don't you need to boot on an Ext3 partition if you do that? | Sep 01 06:31 |
| oiaohm | Depends on the size of the ext4 | Sep 01 06:32 |
| oiaohm | Under a particular size Grub can read it as if it was ext3 | Sep 01 06:32 |
| DaemonFC | GRUB is a total mess right now and I really hope that these distributions can painlessly replace the millions of in-place GRUB installations with GRUB2 when it's out | Sep 01 06:32 |
| DaemonFC | something tells me that they'll leave it in place due to fears of ruining thousands of systems | Sep 01 06:33 |
| oiaohm | Debain development is allready end of living grub1 | Sep 01 06:33 |
| oiaohm | Next debian release will be grub2 | Sep 01 06:33 |
| oiaohm | Basically over the next 12 | Sep 01 06:33 |
| DaemonFC | what do they plan to do for people who already have the old GRUB? | Sep 01 06:35 |
| DaemonFC | it would be dangerous to just try and replace it during the upgrade, right? | Sep 01 06:35 |
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| oiaohm | No DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:36 |
| oiaohm | in case of upgrade all version of grub have been replace threw out history. | Sep 01 06:36 |
| oiaohm | this is just another version. | Sep 01 06:36 |
| oiaohm | The grub configratuion file did not change much. Its mostly grub code that changed. | Sep 01 06:37 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu has said they don't intend to upgrade you if you're not doing a clean install of Karmic | Sep 01 06:37 |
| DaemonFC | they cited the possible danger | Sep 01 06:37 |
| oiaohm | Alarmest buggers. | Sep 01 06:37 |
| DaemonFC | In a lot of ways, LILO scared me a lot less than GRUB | Sep 01 06:38 |
| oiaohm | There is more danger leaving grub 1 in place than installin grub2 | Sep 01 06:38 |
| oiaohm | grub2 has a built in self resuce mode. | Sep 01 06:38 |
| oiaohm | grub 1 does not. | Sep 01 06:38 |
| oiaohm | Most likely Ubuntu will leave it 1 more 6 month cycle before they upgrade it. | Sep 01 06:39 |
| DaemonFC | self rescue, as in it can repair obvious problems rather than go "GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB "? | Sep 01 06:40 |
| DaemonFC | as in, that? :D | Sep 01 06:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | ugh, who the fuck let DaemonFC back in | Sep 01 06:40 |
| DaemonFC | Watch your fucking mouth you god damned asshole | Sep 01 06:41 |
| oiaohm | It can search for grub configuration files instead of just stoping DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:41 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Sep 01 06:41 |
| oiaohm | Now DaemonFC bad langauge risks ban. | Sep 01 06:41 |
| oiaohm | Same to Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 06:41 |
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| DaemonFC | seriously, Diablo-D3 is like being in a room with Eric Cartman | Sep 01 06:42 |
| oiaohm | Please both of you read freenode rules. | Sep 01 06:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | since when did the freenode rules ever apply to me? | Sep 01 06:42 |
| _Hicham_ | freenode rules apply to anyone | Sep 01 06:43 |
| DaemonFC | since Ubuntu bought Freenode | Sep 01 06:43 |
| _Hicham_ | really ? | Sep 01 06:43 |
| oiaohm | Since when you decide you don't want a freenode ban Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 06:43 |
| DaemonFC | and implemented the "OMG!!! CoC!!! Pink Ponies!" | Sep 01 06:43 |
| oiaohm | Stop pulling legs DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:43 |
| DaemonFC | no, they just bribed them with a load of cash | Sep 01 06:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: lilo himself tried to do that once | Sep 01 06:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | freenode didn't last very long after that. | Sep 01 06:44 |
| oiaohm | freenode is an agreement between a stack of different hosts. | Sep 01 06:44 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_: http://freenode.net/ How much cash do you fork over to get your logo taking up half the screen on their front page? | Sep 01 06:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: freenode is a gigantic disaster | Sep 01 06:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: you forget, I've been here since before freenode, before opn, back when it was just a channel on efnet | Sep 01 06:45 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: If I won the lottery, I'd probably bribe them to change the front page to "Sponsored by Ubuntu Satanic Edition" | Sep 01 06:45 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 01 06:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: then I'll just have to bribe them to support jewbuntu | Sep 01 06:45 |
| _Hicham_ | what is wrong with that ? | Sep 01 06:45 |
| _Hicham_ | they have given money to freenode | Sep 01 06:46 |
| _Hicham_ | which is really great | Sep 01 06:46 |
| _Hicham_ | have u ever donated to an open source project ? | Sep 01 06:46 |
| DaemonFC | yep, now they have their own fiefdom | Sep 01 06:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: back me up here | Sep 01 06:46 |
| MinceR | huh? | Sep 01 06:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: did I or did I not bring freenode to it's knees because lilo pissed me off | Sep 01 06:46 |
| MinceR | i don't know | Sep 01 06:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | what, seriously? | Sep 01 06:47 |
| MinceR | when was that anyway? | Sep 01 06:47 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : you completely lost your mind | Sep 01 06:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | it was when lilo was still alive, for one | Sep 01 06:47 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu are working | Sep 01 06:47 |
| MinceR | that isn't very specific | Sep 01 06:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: ask nenolod to tell you the story | Sep 01 06:47 |
| _Hicham_ | while all what you are doing is whining | Sep 01 06:47 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Canonical is jsut throwing money at anyone who will spam for them | Sep 01 06:47 |
| DaemonFC | it's been like that for a while | Sep 01 06:47 |
| _Hicham_ | it is their right | Sep 01 06:47 |
| _Hicham_ | that is sponsoring | Sep 01 06:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: ask him about the blue 1992 ford taurus too | Sep 01 06:48 |
| DaemonFC | spamming/sponsoring, call it what you will | Sep 01 06:48 |
| DaemonFC | I call it a disease | Sep 01 06:48 |
| _Hicham_ | sponsor them and they will put your name on the front page | Sep 01 06:48 |
| _Hicham_ | Sponsored by DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:48 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: http://osuosl.org/ << They are the ones mostly behind freenode. Ubuntu just chipped in a bit of cash. | Sep 01 06:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: Im going to have to photograph my dick then | Sep 01 06:48 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | Sep 01 06:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | "sponsored by diablo's gigantic dick (hey ladies, hes available)" | Sep 01 06:48 |
| DaemonFC | that's what I was thinking | Sep 01 06:48 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC has generously donated a sum of $1 billion bucks to freenode | Sep 01 06:48 |
| *DaemonFC sues Diablo-D3 for copyright infringement | Sep 01 06:48 | |
| _Hicham_ | that would be great publicity for you DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:49 |
| *Diablo-D3 smacks DaemonFC with aforementioned gigantic dick | Sep 01 06:49 | |
| DaemonFC | yeah, it would, wouldn't it | Sep 01 06:49 |
| *DaemonFC quotes Lester Burnham from American Beauty | Sep 01 06:49 | |
| DaemonFC | "Well why don't we all just sell our souls and go work for Satan because it's easier that way?" | Sep 01 06:49 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 06:50 |
| MinceR | m$ employees do exactly that | Sep 01 06:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | a crappy quote from a crappy character from a movie no one has ever watched | Sep 01 06:50 |
| MinceR | and m$ "partners" | Sep 01 06:50 |
| oiaohm | Read the ammount Ubuntu gave is really bugger all. | Sep 01 06:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | not only that, I'm not currently hiring | Sep 01 06:50 |
| oiaohm | £1700.00 << Yep largest donation is really not that large. | Sep 01 06:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | 1700 pounds? dude, thats like usd$10k | Sep 01 06:50 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm, they must be really hard up for cash then | Sep 01 06:51 |
| oiaohm | Its still not that large Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 06:51 |
| oiaohm | 10 k does not go far. | Sep 01 06:51 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : freenode needs cash | Sep 01 06:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | freenode always needs cash | Sep 01 06:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | where have you be--.... | Sep 01 06:51 |
| DaemonFC | if there's tens of thousands of people on this network and they needed it that bad | Sep 01 06:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | HEY ROY | Sep 01 06:51 |
| _Hicham_ | otherwise they will plain shut it down | Sep 01 06:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: DONATE LOTS OF MONEY TO FREENODE | Sep 01 06:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: lolno | Sep 01 06:51 |
| DaemonFC | if everyone chipped in $1, they'd have 10 times what Canonical gave | Sep 01 06:52 |
| DaemonFC | tells you how cheap people are | Sep 01 06:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: the server space is all donated | Sep 01 06:52 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : Donations should continue | Sep 01 06:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | they actually get hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of donations every year... its just not actually in dollars, and mostly under the table | Sep 01 06:52 |
| _Hicham_ | especially from DaemonFC | Sep 01 06:52 |
| *Diablo-D3 has actually seen freenodes books, both the cooked and uncooked ones | Sep 01 06:52 | |
| DaemonFC | yes, I signed over a check and notorized it "The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation", that should screw with some heads | Sep 01 06:53 |
| DaemonFC | yes? | Sep 01 06:53 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 01 06:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: you'd be in prison | Sep 01 06:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | you'd be the prison bitch learning how to toss salad by force, and bill would laugh and laugh | Sep 01 06:53 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : and you know what they will do to you in prison | Sep 01 06:53 |
| oiaohm | Depends he could have a company name somewhere with that name. | Sep 01 06:53 |
| DaemonFC | ok, how about "Donated on behalf of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation"? | Sep 01 06:53 |
| DaemonFC | or "in the name of"? | Sep 01 06:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | donated in the name of god, ye not guilty | Sep 01 06:54 |
| oiaohm | on behalf and in the name of don't save you. | Sep 01 06:54 |
| oiaohm | Unless you have company in that name. | Sep 01 06:54 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC is dreaming of having money to donate | Sep 01 06:54 |
| oiaohm | With the poor company laws around the world you most likely could take out the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation somewhere and get away with it. | Sep 01 06:55 |
| _Hicham_ | while he is completely broke | Sep 01 06:55 |
| DaemonFC | if an organization needs to beg for money, it's not worth saving | Sep 01 06:55 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 06:55 |
| _Hicham_ | he is borrowing the internet line from his neighbors | Sep 01 06:55 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu advertisement is really to hope to annoy other distributions into giving money to freenode. | Sep 01 06:55 |
| oiaohm | Redhat and Suse give nothing. | Sep 01 06:55 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : who told you that ? | Sep 01 06:56 |
| DaemonFC | I really doubt Red Hat gives nothing | Sep 01 06:56 |
| _Hicham_ | RedHat and Novell supports freenode | Sep 01 06:56 |
| oiaohm | In cash. | Sep 01 06:56 |
| DaemonFC | Red Hat foots the bill for a lot of the really important kernel work | Sep 01 06:56 |
| _Hicham_ | they don't have to give in cash | Sep 01 06:57 |
| DaemonFC | and other projects, including the new Theora encoder that doesn't suck as bad | Sep 01 06:57 |
| _Hicham_ | did u test the new thusnelda codec ? | Sep 01 06:57 |
| DaemonFC | I couldn't imagine they wouldn't donate something to Freenode | Sep 01 06:57 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: freenode would like to see more cash. | Sep 01 06:57 |
| _Hicham_ | as an expert encoder ? | Sep 01 06:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | redhat is fucking shit | Sep 01 06:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | they hired mingo | Sep 01 06:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | I cant trust anything that company does | Sep 01 06:57 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : did u work for RedHat before ? | Sep 01 06:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | no | Sep 01 06:58 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Thusnelda is not h.264 quality, though it's lightyears ahead of the shit they had for an encoder marked 1.0 :P | Sep 01 06:58 |
| _Hicham_ | why are u telling that ? | Sep 01 06:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: I hate to break this to you, but theora sucks dick | Sep 01 06:58 |
| DaemonFC | some of the problem comes from the fact that they don't own the patents to some of the features that h.264 uses | Sep 01 06:59 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : you are hating everything | Sep 01 06:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: I like h264. | Sep 01 06:59 |
| DaemonFC | some comes from the fact that Theora inherits a lot of limitations from VP6 | Sep 01 06:59 |
| oiaohm | You and your Ingo Molnar hate Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 06:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: mingo ruined the kernel | Sep 01 06:59 |
| oiaohm | How Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 06:59 |
| DaemonFC | there was some speculation that Google might open source the codecs it got when it bought that company out, including VP8 | Sep 01 07:00 |
| oiaohm | Please don't be the con blow up. | Sep 01 07:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: mingo's sched really is crap | Sep 01 07:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | con's doesnt have to be better for me to say that | Sep 01 07:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: that'd be nice... but vp8 doesn't compete with h264 | Sep 01 07:00 |
| oiaohm | It was Ingo Molnar who worked out there was something wrong with con results that the alterations to sched was not producing correct results when benched. | Sep 01 07:01 |
| DaemonFC | It seems to me that anyone that tries to make the kernel perform better is eventually chased away by Linus Torvalds | Sep 01 07:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not true at all | Sep 01 07:01 |
| oiaohm | Leading to the wake up the sched could not be fixed without curing the BKL Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 07:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: seen con's newest sched yet? | Sep 01 07:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | its almost perfect | Sep 01 07:01 |
| oiaohm | Yes and it still not perfect. | Sep 01 07:02 |
| DaemonFC | didn't he get pissed off and leave after that?\ | Sep 01 07:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: for 2 years, yeah | Sep 01 07:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont blame him | Sep 01 07:02 |
| oiaohm | Fool still has included hacks around locking issuses Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 07:02 |
| oiaohm | Instead of fixing the locks. | Sep 01 07:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo badly reimplemented con's code without understanding them | Sep 01 07:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | and then used money to get his patch into the kernel | Sep 01 07:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not entirely true | Sep 01 07:03 |
| oiaohm | mingo saw a problem con would not listern | Sep 01 07:03 |
| DaemonFC | if Con Kilivas worked for Red Hat and Molnar didn't, we'd have Con's scheduler | Sep 01 07:03 |
| oiaohm | The exploded. | Sep 01 07:03 |
| DaemonFC | I'm pretty sure of that | Sep 01 07:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo created a problem, he didnt see one | Sep 01 07:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: yes. | Sep 01 07:03 |
| DaemonFC | *Kolivas | Sep 01 07:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: I agree | Sep 01 07:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: the problem with mingo is he never produced benchmarks that proved anything | Sep 01 07:03 |
| oiaohm | mingo benches show issues. | Sep 01 07:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | all the benchmarks I ran myself showed con's old sched out performed everything mingo did | Sep 01 07:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: thats the problem, they did not. | Sep 01 07:04 |
| oiaohm | The real-time tree developers explained what was going on. | Sep 01 07:04 |
| DaemonFC | Linus Torvalds and Red Hat have to massage each other | Sep 01 07:04 |
| oiaohm | Not mingo. | Sep 01 07:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: you know whats awesome about realtime linux? | Sep 01 07:04 |
| DaemonFC | if your work competes with anything Red Hat is working on, theirs will be merged | Sep 01 07:04 |
| oiaohm | con and been hadding hacks working around locking issue that had been driving the real-time tree nuts. | Sep 01 07:04 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : of course | Sep 01 07:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | con's new sched actually can provide hard realtime requirements without causing undue latency to non-realtime tasks | Sep 01 07:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | something CFS cant do | Sep 01 07:04 |
| _Hicham_ | it is the circle of trust | Sep 01 07:04 |
| _Hicham_ | that is how Linus works | Sep 01 07:05 |
| DaemonFC | it's a circlejerk anyway | Sep 01 07:05 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: if he had kept it clean and not added work around to locking issues as con has done with all his it would be great. | Sep 01 07:05 |
| DaemonFC | most open source projects are abandoned when the one or two key developers quit | Sep 01 07:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: on con's new sched I can make -j5 and play nexuiz at the same time with no fps drop and no input lag. | Sep 01 07:05 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is one of the odd exceptions | Sep 01 07:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: and btw, those "locking issues" are the kernel's problem | Sep 01 07:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | the kernel has cleaned up most of those over the past 2 years | Sep 01 07:05 |
| oiaohm | Still 300 files to clear Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 07:05 |
| oiaohm | And there are 8 parts that have to be removed from the con new sched when they do. | Sep 01 07:06 |
| oiaohm | Or it will break again. | Sep 01 07:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: its kind of sad how you fail basic software design | Sep 01 07:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | the largest problem in the kernel isnt even the locks | Sep 01 07:06 |
| DaemonFC | well, Linux is hardly a meritocracy as they claim | Sep 01 07:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | its how apps can busy wait on io blocking | Sep 01 07:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats a huge fucking problem | Sep 01 07:07 |
| DaemonFC | it's more of a corporatocracy than most people gather | Sep 01 07:07 |
| oiaohm | io blocking is locking releated Diablo-D3 | Sep 01 07:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: vaguely | Sep 01 07:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | the problem is its handled like shit by most scheds | Sep 01 07:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS included because the kernel doesnt handle the problem properly | Sep 01 07:08 |
| oiaohm | You cannot handle it with sched until you have locks not blocking the sched. | Sep 01 07:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | locks dont block the sched | Sep 01 07:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | the sched uses locks internally but thats not related here | Sep 01 07:08 |
| oiaohm | io locks are being set out side the sched. | Sep 01 07:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | io locks shouldnt exist | Sep 01 07:09 |
| oiaohm | Where they should not be set. | Sep 01 07:09 |
| oiaohm | Exactly. | Sep 01 07:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is not a sched problem | Sep 01 07:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a bad kernel design problem | Sep 01 07:09 |
| oiaohm | You cannot get sched right while they exist. | Sep 01 07:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: you know whats really fun? | Sep 01 07:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | another friend of mine is working on a solution for that | Sep 01 07:09 |
| oiaohm | You get strange reading on the performance of the sched trying to bench it with bad locks. | Sep 01 07:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, oiaohm | Sep 01 07:10 |
| oiaohm | mingo was seeing something that kon was not. | Sep 01 07:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | on a simple busy loop 1000 thread benchmark, bfs is about 15% faster | Sep 01 07:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no | Sep 01 07:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo was making up bullshit and wouldnt prove his argument | Sep 01 07:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: why do you troll? | Sep 01 07:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're worse than microsoft shills sometimes | Sep 01 07:11 |
| oiaohm | You are aware the new one does not have lot of the strange blocks of code his old one had. | Sep 01 07:11 |
| oiaohm | Because the faults those hacks were working around no longer exist in kernel. | Sep 01 07:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im aware that the kernel has gone in the direction that con had set forth because it was the only way forward | Sep 01 07:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo ended up not winning, con still got his way | Sep 01 07:12 |
| oiaohm | mingo never was against con direction. | Sep 01 07:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo was against it the whole time | Sep 01 07:12 |
| oiaohm | mingo want to find why it was benching strange. | Sep 01 07:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo couldnt stand someone was better than him | Sep 01 07:12 |
| oiaohm | He did. | Sep 01 07:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo has a very bad ego problem | Sep 01 07:13 |
| oiaohm | Both had a bad ego problem. | Sep 01 07:13 |
| oiaohm | That caused the bomb. | Sep 01 07:13 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : what a weird way to discuss kernel problems | Sep 01 07:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | con has a right to his ego | Sep 01 07:13 |
| oiaohm | mingo wanted to find out what this strangness was. | Sep 01 07:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | he actually knows how to code | Sep 01 07:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo doesnt | Sep 01 07:13 |
| oiaohm | con wanted just to code around it and forget about it. | Sep 01 07:13 |
| oiaohm | That cause bomb. | Sep 01 07:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: the kernel is extremely political | Sep 01 07:13 |
| oiaohm | it was going to explode. | Sep 01 07:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: I dont like it | Sep 01 07:14 |
| oiaohm | Lot of developers tried to mediate both mingo and con. | Sep 01 07:14 |
| oiaohm | Because they could see it coming. | Sep 01 07:14 |
| oiaohm | Both were looking at two different pictures. | Sep 01 07:14 |
| oiaohm | mingo was trying to look complete system. | Sep 01 07:14 |
| oiaohm | con was tunneled visioned on on sheduler. | Sep 01 07:15 |
| oiaohm | If mingo hate con idea completely he would have never created a clone of it. | Sep 01 07:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | [02:21:27] <Diablo-D3> mingo couldnt stand someone was better than him | Sep 01 07:16 |
| oiaohm | Not true. | Sep 01 07:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | very true | Sep 01 07:16 |
| oiaohm | con could not explain the flux in benchmarks either. | Sep 01 07:16 |
| oiaohm | It was developers from the real-time tree that could. | Sep 01 07:17 |
| oiaohm | Both were unable to answer where the strange benching came from. | Sep 01 07:17 |
| oiaohm | mingo was wantting to find out. | Sep 01 07:17 |
| oiaohm | The simple fact neither con or mingo were in the right in that complete mess. | Sep 01 07:18 |
| oiaohm | Both were incompetent in different ways. | Sep 01 07:18 |
| oiaohm | con doing add sheduler bias here and there to hide strange benching is the incorrect thing to be doing no matter how smart you are. | Sep 01 07:19 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : http://people.redhat.com/mingo/cfs-scheduler/sched-design-CFS.txt | Sep 01 07:19 |
| oiaohm | Particularly when you don't know what the cause is for the strange benching. | Sep 01 07:20 |
| _Hicham_ | I'd like to give credit to Con Kolivas for the general approach here: | Sep 01 07:20 |
| _Hicham_ | he has proven via RSDL/SD that 'fair scheduling' is possible and that | Sep 01 07:20 |
| _Hicham_ | it results in better desktop scheduling. Kudos Con! | Sep 01 07:20 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't see that there an ego issue in here | Sep 01 07:20 |
| _Hicham_ | based on that | Sep 01 07:20 |
| oiaohm | mingo will glady take Con Kolivas back. | Sep 01 07:20 |
| oiaohm | Just Con has to get over his ego. | Sep 01 07:20 |
| oiaohm | He is not always right neither are all the people around him. | Sep 01 07:21 |
| oiaohm | When there is strangeness it has to be explained. | Sep 01 07:21 |
| oiaohm | Having +15 to -20 percent fluxs at time in scheduler was completely wrong. | Sep 01 07:21 |
| oiaohm | And had to be fixed. | Sep 01 07:21 |
| oiaohm | Mingo was overly blunt with Con. That caused some of the problem. I think most of Con problem was lack of expermince. | Sep 01 07:23 |
| oiaohm | Even Con own benchmarking tool was showing strange flux's without explain. Diablo-D3. Linux kernel has come a long way since his first attempt. | Sep 01 07:25 |
| oiaohm | It was Con sheduler that started the work on the monitering system threw out the Linux kernel. | Sep 01 07:25 |
| oiaohm | Without con and mingo fight development of the Linux kernel would have taken a completely different path and we would have a poor kernel today. | Sep 01 07:26 |
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| oiaohm | http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt LOl | Sep 01 07:30 |
| oiaohm | kolivas has not read slob memory allocator. | Sep 01 07:30 |
| oiaohm | Its also reducicuallly simple and main line. | Sep 01 07:31 |
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| zeropath | I'm horrible at IRC. Can anyone help me a little ? | Sep 01 07:32 |
| zeropath | I'd like to communicate with Roy Schestowitz. | Sep 01 07:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: dude, if you keep it up Im just going to put you on ignore | Sep 01 07:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | zeropath: talk to schestowitz | Sep 01 07:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | hes currently afk | Sep 01 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | "Because it throws out the philosophy that one scheduler fits all and shows | Sep 01 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | that you can do a -lot- better with a scheduler designed for a particular | Sep 01 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | purpose. I don't want to use a steamroller to crack nuts." | Sep 01 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | rofl | Sep 01 07:33 |
| DaemonFC | oh dammit | Sep 01 07:33 |
| zeropath | what is afk ? | Sep 01 07:33 |
| oiaohm | afk is away from keyboard zeropath | Sep 01 07:34 |
| zeropath | thanks, I'll try later | Sep 01 07:35 |
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| oiaohm | Funny part Diablo-D3 the bfs might be all the sheduler has to be. Reason lot of the code in the current sheduler is trying to work around performance errors. | Sep 01 07:36 |
| MinceR | Big F-----g Scheduler? :> | Sep 01 07:38 |
| oiaohm | Yep MinceR | Sep 01 07:39 |
| oiaohm | tunables in the current scheduler are to try to hide work load issues. | Sep 01 07:40 |
| schestowitz | brb | Sep 01 07:54 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 1 07:56:49 2009 | ||
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Sep 01 07:56 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged] | Sep 01 07:56 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009 | Sep 01 07:56 | |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Sep 01 07:56 | |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Sep 01 07:57 | |
| *BNc () has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 08:00 | |
| *schestowitz is back to amarok | Sep 01 08:14 | |
| DaemonFC | Opera 10 goes final today | Sep 01 08:18 |
| DaemonFC | I've found a few more websites it doesn't render quite right and reported them all | Sep 01 08:19 |
| DaemonFC | they've fixed things I've reported before | Sep 01 08:19 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Comcast AstroTurfing on the Web (with Radian6) http://ping.fm/T7ksF | Sep 01 08:34 | |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: ^ | Sep 01 08:35 |
| DaemonFC | cool | Sep 01 08:36 |
| DaemonFC | I got another hit from them btw | Sep 01 08:36 |
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| DaemonFC | hmm, the COO of CodeWeavers commented on my blog | Sep 01 08:55 |
| DaemonFC | and Akismet spammed it | Sep 01 08:55 |
| DaemonFC | I dug it back out of the spam though, weird | Sep 01 08:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Comes Antitrust: Microsoft McCarthyism Exposed http://ping.fm/4WuXF | Sep 01 09:15 | |
| schestowitz | ^ After Wired's "dossiers" incident the following is worth coming to accept as reality. | Sep 01 09:16 |
| DaemonFC | Opera 10's installer is only 6.5 megs, the RC was 8.5 megs | Sep 01 09:21 |
| DaemonFC | debug code removed maybe? | Sep 01 09:21 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It’s Not Just Microsoft http://ping.fm/gBZaD | Sep 01 10:19 | |
| oiaohm | debug and optimisation flags. | Sep 01 10:20 |
| oiaohm | Development you rarely turn full opt on makes error messages less useful. | Sep 01 10:21 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Could one of the 3 billion women on Earth present Top Gear? Do tell the Daily Mail "yes" http://bit.ly/tW1h1 please forward widely! | Sep 01 10:44 | |
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| schestowitz | Server went down | Sep 01 10:56 |
| schestowitz | I wonder if anyone is awake to power it up | Sep 01 10:56 |
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| schestowitz | Lori Drew Opinion Handed Down -- Judge Grants Motion To Dismiss on Vagueness Grounds: < http://volokh.com/posts/1251601962.shtml > | Sep 01 11:00 |
| schestowitz | The Good And Bad Of Banks Too Big To Fail Getting Bigger... < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090831/0150166049.shtml > | Sep 01 11:03 |
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| schestowitz | Sony signs Google browser deal "Google has signed a deal with Sony to incorporate its Chrome internet browser into the Japanese technology giant's personal computers." | Sep 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8231184.stm | Sep 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | "Skype is expected to be sold to a group of private investors, including Netscape co-founder Marc Andreessen and private equity firms." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8231072.stm | Sep 01 11:23 |
| oiaohm | Openoffice 3.1.1 is out | Sep 01 11:30 |
| schestowitz | yeah, since yesterday | Sep 01 11:31 |
| schestowitz | Bugfixes mostly | Sep 01 11:31 |
| schestowitz | "What’s Good For IBM... ...is as good as it gets for America." http://www.newsweek.com/id/212120 | Sep 01 11:32 |
| schestowitz | tessier's server is down ATM (with BN too) | Sep 01 11:32 |
| schestowitz | http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3258 | Sep 01 11:33 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The boycottnovell server is offline and the admin is asleep. Bad timing. | Sep 01 11:38 | |
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| schestowitz | Judge acquits mother in MySpace suicide case < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/31/lori_drew_officially_acquitted/ > | Sep 01 11:41 |
| schestowitz | German state election exit polls leaked on Twitter < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/31/german_state_election_exit_polls_leaked_on_twitter/ > | Sep 01 11:42 |
| schestowitz | apache.org downtime - initial report < https://blogs.apache.org/infra/entry/apache_org_downtime_initial_report > | Sep 01 12:09 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz heh, i thought you were being ddosed again after that press doc! | Sep 01 12:23 | |
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| schestowitz | GPL dominates the space yet there's stuff like this: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=1390172&rll=1 | Sep 01 12:32 |
| schestowitz | I used PCLinuxOS last month and it was great. But "Exciting"? "Impressing"? It's software, not a vacation. Some people can be "excited" by marketing or a sense of belonging to some stereotype, but really... as long as the work gets done, that counts as a success. Didn't Torvalds call it "invisible magician" or something? | Sep 01 12:40 |
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| schestowitz | Mirroring Web sites with wget < http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=883 > | Sep 01 12:55 |
| schestowitz | Ken on kde4: http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/08/next-for-sainthood-kde-developers.html | Sep 01 13:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Graphics Tips to Making GNU/Linux Visually Attractive http://ping.fm/zjWVI | Sep 01 13:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] LXDE (Desktop Environment) a Top Choice for Some http://ping.fm/tqmaI | Sep 01 13:26 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Minitube (GPLv3) Bring YouTube to Desktop GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/i2ylJ | Sep 01 13:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Overview of Top Features in Slackware GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/QhzPY | Sep 01 13:30 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SAM Linux 2009 Gets Good Review http://ping.fm/kIixA | Sep 01 13:32 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux for Gamers (Supreme Super Gamer LiveDVD) in Review http://ping.fm/DtiJk | Sep 01 13:33 | |
| oiaohm | http://www.inhabitat.com/2009/08/31/swarms-of-solar-powered-microbots-may-revolutionize-data-gathering/ Great hopefully grey goo is not around the conoer | Sep 01 13:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Vine Linux 5 http://ping.fm/Uhl8G | Sep 01 13:38 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mandriva Linux to Bring Out More Surprises http://ping.fm/uYe4Z | Sep 01 13:39 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Zenwalk GNU/Linux 6 Reviewed http://ping.fm/0F3Gc | Sep 01 13:40 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Any Django programmers in Jordan? | Sep 01 13:50 | |
| Omar87 | Anyone here tried Zenwalk? | Sep 01 13:51 |
| vermilionnnn | nope, never heard of it | Sep 01 13:51 |
| Omar87 | vermilionnnn: Really? It's pretty popular though. | Sep 01 13:52 |
| vermilionnnn | omar87: Really. What is it? | Sep 01 13:53 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin reviewed it recently | Sep 01 13:55 |
| schestowitz | It looks decent, but not for everyone maybe | Sep 01 13:55 |
| schestowitz | xfce focused | Sep 01 13:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of OpenGEU 8.10 (Ubuntu Linux + Enlightenment) http://ping.fm/pvdAY | Sep 01 13:59 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at Ubuntu Linux Software Store http://ping.fm/6J2Fv | Sep 01 14:01 | |
| Omar87 | vermilionnnn: It's a Linux distro. >.> | Sep 01 14:02 |
| vermilionnnn | ill go take a look :) | Sep 01 14:06 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look Ahead at Firefox 4.0 http://ping.fm/GbJ0r | Sep 01 14:08 | |
| vermilionnnn | is the boycott novell website unaccessible for anyone else? | Sep 01 14:08 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sub-notebooks Running GNU/Linux Only Enter the Scene http://ping.fm/NahIr | Sep 01 14:09 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Apache Project (Wink) Targets Rise of Web Services http://ping.fm/tx73C | Sep 01 14:10 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Global Conference on Open Source to Have Brazil President Speak http://ping.fm/5TQN8 | Sep 01 14:14 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free (Libre) Operating System Does GUI and Apps in 3 MB http://ping.fm/FA9TX | Sep 01 14:14 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sun Adds Openness to Blogs Using New Licensing Move http://ping.fm/7mc5f | Sep 01 14:14 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sony to Preinstall Free Software Web Browser http://ping.fm/AdyOl | Sep 01 14:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Skype Sold http://ping.fm/gH2tk | Sep 01 14:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mandelson and Microsoft Front Group Use Lies to Knock People Off the Web http://ping.fm/vq1hj http://ping.fm/gNxb6 | Sep 01 14:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Study: Patents Reduce Innovation http://ping.fm/rA6bJ | Sep 01 14:20 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SCO to be Put in Hands of Lawyers, Apparently http://ping.fm/xJ61x | Sep 01 14:23 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's B0ng Engine Spams the Web to Elevate Numbers http://ping.fm/E0wZs | Sep 01 14:25 | |
| schestowitz | Hey, wallclimber | Sep 01 14:26 |
| wallclimber | hey, good morning! | Sep 01 14:27 |
| wallclimber | BN doesn't seem to be working this morning | Sep 01 14:28 |
| schestowitz | The server's down | Sep 01 14:29 |
| wallclimber | :o( | Sep 01 14:29 |
| schestowitz | I got lots of E-mail about it. I'm just waiting. | Sep 01 14:30 |
| schestowitz | I doubt I can do much without the admin, can I? He'll be awake soon (6:30am there) | Sep 01 14:30 |
| wallclimber | he must live in my time zone, cuz that's what time it is here | Sep 01 14:31 |
| wallclimber | want me to go knock on his door and wake him up? lol | Sep 01 14:33 |
| wallclimber | (just kidding) | Sep 01 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Me see wallclimber being killed doing that. | Sep 01 14:34 |
| wallclimber | maybe I could just stand on the sidewalk and throw rocks at his window | Sep 01 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Even worse. | Sep 01 14:35 |
| wallclimber | well, i'll just be patient then and go fix some coffee and toast... | Sep 01 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Last time one tried that on me the picked the wrong house. | Sep 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | And kind got into big trouble. | Sep 01 14:36 |
| wallclimber | you had a little old lady throw rocks at your windows at 6:30 am? | Sep 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | I am a system admin. | Sep 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Someone though they will get me out of bed. | Sep 01 14:37 |
| wallclimber | ahh, so you are used to rock-throwing :o) | Sep 01 14:37 |
| oiaohm | and threw rocks at a little old ladies house not mine. | Sep 01 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Things end up bad. | Sep 01 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Rocking my place people kinda don't learn don't do that to system admin. | Sep 01 14:38 |
| oiaohm | they have the power of the computer system and can take revenge is sneeky ways. | Sep 01 14:38 |
| wallclimber | words of wisdom, for sure. | Sep 01 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Like moving house and not updating business address records. | Sep 01 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Not like we have to. | Sep 01 14:39 |
| MinceR | *clickety click* | Sep 01 14:40 |
| MinceR | ;) | Sep 01 14:40 |
| oiaohm | I have put my address in system as middle of a river before. | Sep 01 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes don't trust that system admins records about system admin are true and correct. | Sep 01 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Too many people get smart ass ideas of digging system admins out of bed. | Sep 01 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Truth is not good for house. | Sep 01 14:42 |
| MinceR | you could specify the address of a military base :> | Sep 01 14:43 |
| wallclimber | Years ago I used to use call forwarding to forward my phone number to the local theater's movie schedule line on weekends... | Sep 01 14:45 |
| wallclimber | I wasn't a system admin, but an art director and i got tired of getting calls from the boss on weekends | Sep 01 14:46 |
| oiaohm | No nearby militray base | Sep 01 14:47 |
| wallclimber | over last minute changes and looming deadlines, and whatever small crisis | Sep 01 14:47 |
| oiaohm | I should specify the prision near by at some point. | Sep 01 14:47 |
| oiaohm | Ok that is pure mean. | Sep 01 14:47 |
| wallclimber | Prison is good! out here we have Sheriff Joe, and tent city... he's very scary | Sep 01 14:48 |
| wallclimber | okay, the coffee pot has finished making the coffee...anyone want a cup? | Sep 01 14:49 |
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| sdlkfj | Hey guys, have you finally given up trolling the internet or is it my isp? | Sep 01 14:56 |
| wallclimber | Must be your isp, nobody around here does trolling... | Sep 01 14:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Vagabonds Sat 29 Aug photos up http://bit.ly/37xK3c | Sep 01 14:56 | |
| sdlkfj | wallclimber: heh, I meant boycottnovell.com | Sep 01 14:57 |
| wallclimber | I know, was just kidding... | Sep 01 14:57 |
| wallclimber | :o) | Sep 01 14:57 |
| sdlkfj | :D | Sep 01 14:57 |
| wallclimber | apparently the server is down | Sep 01 14:58 |
| wallclimber | for BN | Sep 01 14:58 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Sequencer. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/13665.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/527410.html | Sep 01 15:58 | |
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| schestowitz | Americans continue plans to switch off the Internet < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1531879/americans-continue-plans-switch-internet > | Sep 01 16:09 |
| schestowitz | Cheney Still Manipulating People -- Now In Public < http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/31/cheney-still-manipulating_n_273034.html > | Sep 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | "Former US Vice President Dick Cheney proclaimed once again over the weekend that he believes torture applied to war-on-terror detainees in U.S. custody after 9/11 worked brilliantly to reveal terror plots -- this despite testimony to the contrary from a CIA investigator who looked into the details of these abusive interrogations." | Sep 01 16:12 |
| schestowitz | http://www.boingboing.net/2009/08/31/dick-cheney-proud-to.html | Sep 01 16:12 |
| schestowitz | http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/on_londons_surv.html (On London's Surveillance Cameras) | Sep 01 16:17 |
| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/01/bing-and-yahoo-see-small-decline-in-august Microsoft's global market share is only about 3% in search (and declining, still) | Sep 01 16:22 |
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| schestowitz | Malware thrown on California bush fires < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/01/cal_fire_malware/ > | Sep 01 16:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Maggie Shiels (MSBBC) is advertising Microsoft again... *Sigh* http://ping.fm/re30b She does this a lot | Sep 01 16:33 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz isn't that the same MSBBC story from last week? is nothing else happening in all of britain for the BBC to talk about? | Sep 01 16:40 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @mattmckeon Adding OpenID to your site? Check out Google's user experience research: http://bit.ly/zKznf | Sep 01 16:43 | |
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| schestowitz | SourceForge, Inc. Announces Departure of Jon Sobel, Group President, Media < http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS194287+31-Aug-2009+PRN20090831 > | Sep 01 17:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] seanbaby is ridiculously funny. WoW explained using Mario: http://is.gd/2Lu1j | Sep 01 17:26 | |
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| jmpnop | is the site down? | Sep 01 17:28 |
| schestowitz | Yes, back soon | Sep 01 17:29 |
| jmpnop | good to know, thanks | Sep 01 17:30 |
| schestowitz | bbl. If tessier gets back remind him to bring back up the server | Sep 01 17:33 |
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| tessier | So much for nagios. :( | Sep 01 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | what's up tessier ? | Sep 01 18:19 |
| tessier | meh...lame server problems. | Sep 01 18:19 |
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| satipera | Question of the day again I am afraid, why has the site been down? | Sep 01 18:30 |
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| Eruaran | I don't actually agree with the "Microsoft is trashing your freedom" slogan... not fully at least. | Sep 01 18:39 |
| Eruaran | What software I run on my computer, I am ultimately responsible for. If I choose to run proprietary software from a convicted monopolist, then I am the one trashing my own freedom. | Sep 01 18:40 |
| cubezzz | hmmm | Sep 01 18:41 |
| cubezzz | part of that is lack of choice in the market | Sep 01 18:41 |
| cubezzz | if you go to the store, what do you see? All windows computers | Sep 01 18:41 |
| Eruaran | indeed | Sep 01 18:42 |
| cubezzz | recently I realized I've been paying the microsoft tax right from the start | Sep 01 18:49 |
| ThistleWeb | Microsoft need to be forced to list Windows as a separate price within the bundle when you buy a PC, with a non-Windows option available | Sep 01 18:50 |
| cubezzz | almost all early home computers licensed microsoft basic and have a Microsoft (c) 1977 basic chip | Sep 01 18:50 |
| ThistleWeb | that way they can't hide behind the intentional customer confusion that Windows is free | Sep 01 18:50 |
| cubezzz | so the only way to be certain is to build your own computer | Sep 01 18:50 |
| Eruaran | We build computers with no Windows tax. | Sep 01 18:51 |
| ThistleWeb | of course when you start to list individual parts like that, companies like Norton will go mental as they can't hide their trialware shit | Sep 01 18:51 |
| ThistleWeb | it is bizarre to find a windows pc the same price as a Linux one, despite the windows fee being added | Sep 01 18:52 |
| cubezzz | I'd still like to be able to go to some store in my own country and buy a pocket linux computer | Sep 01 18:52 |
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| ThistleWeb | all the trialware shit preinstalled is all subsidised | Sep 01 18:53 |
| Eruaran | cubezzz: It will happen. | Sep 01 18:53 |
| cubezzz | Eruaran, yeah probably if I went to Toronto I could find one | Sep 01 18:53 |
| cubezzz | the local staples sells ipaq's with windows mobile | Sep 01 18:53 |
| Eruaran | Microsoft can't stop the future from coming, they can only delay it. | Sep 01 18:54 |
| Eruaran | eww | Sep 01 18:54 |
| Eruaran | ipaqs have alwasys been crap imho | Sep 01 18:54 |
| cubezzz | could be, I never tried one :) | Sep 01 18:55 |
| Eruaran | I've known people who've had them | Sep 01 18:55 |
| Eruaran | never seemed very useful to me | Sep 01 18:55 |
| _Hicham_ | Most laptops vendors force you to use Windows | Sep 01 18:55 |
| Eruaran | yes | Sep 01 18:56 |
| ThistleWeb | nothing is ever completely useless, does it work as a paperweight? | Sep 01 18:56 |
| Eruaran | They are afraid of Microsoft still | Sep 01 18:56 |
| Eruaran | ThistleWeb: probably | Sep 01 18:56 |
| cubezzz | Sharp supports Linux fairly well | Sep 01 18:56 |
| _Hicham_ | So you have to buy laptop prebundled with Windows, format it, and installs your favorite Linux | Sep 01 18:57 |
| Eruaran | I don't understand Nokia's netbook (failbook ?)... it has Windows ? What's with that ? | Sep 01 18:57 |
| cubezzz | still paying the good ol' Windows Tax then :-/ | Sep 01 18:57 |
| Eruaran | Could buy from Zareason or System76 | Sep 01 18:57 |
| wallclimber | I've sent friends to "Eight Virtues" this year and, so far, everyone's been happy with their new systems...good prices too | Sep 01 18:58 |
| wallclimber | http://eightvirtues.com/ | Sep 01 18:59 |
| cubezzz | I was wondering, if you buy a used laptop on ebay with windows, is the license transferable? | Sep 01 18:59 |
| cubezzz | not that I want to use windows, just curious | Sep 01 18:59 |
| ThistleWeb | cubezzz: I dont think so | Sep 01 18:59 |
| ThistleWeb | MS are good at making sure loopholes letting peeps avoid paying them are closed | Sep 01 19:00 |
| wallclimber | isn't the windows license tied to the hardware? if so, that license should also go with the hardware when it's sold | Sep 01 19:00 |
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| ThistleWeb | while ensuring loopholes that make them money are kept open, or opened for them | Sep 01 19:00 |
| Eruaran | Microsoft licensing for various versions of Windows and Office is deliberately labrynthine. | Sep 01 19:01 |
| ThistleWeb | they've sued ebay sellers in the past for selling "illegal" versions of windows which were not illegal at all | Sep 01 19:02 |
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| ThistleWeb | MS reserve the right to decide who can and cant sell licences | Sep 01 19:02 |
| ThistleWeb | so they get a cut of each one | Sep 01 19:02 |
| ThistleWeb | that excludes peeps who buy a licence | Sep 01 19:03 |
| Eruaran | Violating the customers right to sell what he/she doesn't want | Sep 01 19:03 |
| ThistleWeb | having said that I used to work for a company who sold stuff on ebay, with the same windows licence used many many times on hardware | Sep 01 19:03 |
| ThistleWeb | on the basis that "ebay is like a market stall, buyers expect shit" | Sep 01 19:04 |
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| cubezzz | unopened software, I see no issues with that | Sep 01 19:04 |
| cubezzz | of course people sell used software all the time | Sep 01 19:05 |
| ThistleWeb | it's because of that, that I dont use ebay | Sep 01 19:05 |
| DaemonFC | cubezzz: That's kind of what turned me on to Windows 95 | Sep 01 19:05 |
| ThistleWeb | unopened is different | Sep 01 19:05 |
| DaemonFC | plenty of cheap used software at the used book store | Sep 01 19:05 |
| DaemonFC | there really is no such thing as used software for Windows now due to DRM | Sep 01 19:06 |
| cubezzz | I hated the win95 era, but commodore was dying and what do that leave? clone pcs with doze | Sep 01 19:07 |
| DaemonFC | I think a lot of the value in having a copy of Windows went away because there's no longer a used software market for it | Sep 01 19:07 |
| DaemonFC | I mean, who wants to pay ten times as much for something just cause it's still shrink wrapped? | Sep 01 19:07 |
| cubezzz | late 90's there was BeOS but of course BeOS wasn't FOSS | Sep 01 19:07 |
| ThistleWeb | as the board of MS will tell you, it's not whether it's against the law that matters, it's what the penalty is if you get caught that counts | Sep 01 19:07 |
| DaemonFC | I had that, they had the version that used the loopmounted file system | Sep 01 19:07 |
| DaemonFC | and it lived on your Windows partition | Sep 01 19:08 |
| cubezzz | it's funny, I never felt I was payin the "Commodore Tax" when I bought an Amiga | Sep 01 19:08 |
| ThistleWeb | what else could you install on an amiga? | Sep 01 19:08 |
| DaemonFC | it's ridiculous, the penalty for selling unlicensed software can be as high as robbing a bank with a machine gun | Sep 01 19:08 |
| DaemonFC | that's just not right | Sep 01 19:08 |
| cubezzz | well, with an MMU Linux is possible, but early Amigas didn't have MMUs | Sep 01 19:09 |
| cubezzz | there was a Unix Commodore machine, I forget which one that was | Sep 01 19:09 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I've got more hits from Radian6, I wonder what they're saying on the "conversation page" I can't log into | Sep 01 19:10 |
| DaemonFC | obviously that post is bothering someone at Comcast | Sep 01 19:10 |
| MinceR | there's ucLinux for MMU-less architectures | Sep 01 19:11 |
| cubezzz | in the 90's I actually bought Minix from Prentice Hall | Sep 01 19:11 |
| cubezzz | couldn't make it work very well :) | Sep 01 19:11 |
| cubezzz | so I defnitely tried many times to escape the Windows Tax BS | Sep 01 19:11 |
| DaemonFC | MINIX is easy to run in a VM | Sep 01 19:12 |
| cubezzz | finally got rid of microsoft from my machines in 2003 | Sep 01 19:12 |
| DaemonFC | MINIX is not really adequate for your primary OS, it is fun to play around with or maybe learn something about OS design from, that was the point | Sep 01 19:12 |
| cubezzz | yeah, I can do the learning part on Linux or NFS or embedix, tons of stuff now | Sep 01 19:13 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: earlier you said that minix was omfg-great | Sep 01 19:13 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: make up your mind already | Sep 01 19:13 |
| DaemonFC | it is, as in, there's a lot of great ideas in its design | Sep 01 19:14 |
| DaemonFC | not great as in "There's a lot of third party software or driver support" | Sep 01 19:15 |
| DaemonFC | "great" as in, I wish Linux could..."Resurrect unresponsive services", "Restart drivers that crash without having the whole system just freeze", etc. | Sep 01 19:16 |
| cubezzz | DaemonFC, we can, with modules | Sep 01 19:16 |
| DaemonFC | maybe | Sep 01 19:16 |
| cubezzz | I use rmmod when needed | Sep 01 19:16 |
| DaemonFC | if it's not running in the kernel | Sep 01 19:16 |
| DaemonFC | the design of MINIX is such that pretty much all drivers run outside of the kernel | Sep 01 19:17 |
| cubezzz | I've had uptimes of over 200 days on this box | Sep 01 19:17 |
| DaemonFC | I mean obviously things like your keyboard will have to run in the kernel | Sep 01 19:17 |
| DaemonFC | but 99.9% of MINIX drivers would run in user space where they can be killed and restarted | Sep 01 19:18 |
| DaemonFC | you must not have done anything mischievous then | Sep 01 19:18 |
| DaemonFC | sometimes the idea behind crash resilience is that you're protecting the user from something they maybe should not have done | Sep 01 19:19 |
| cubezzz | it's loaded, tv tuner, tons of usb devices, play games, it runs a server 24/7 | Sep 01 19:19 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, tell me what Linux does when your video driver dies | Sep 01 19:19 |
| cubezzz | I restart X | Sep 01 19:20 |
| DaemonFC | Do you (A) Hold in the power button, (B) Curse and hold in the power button, or (C) There is no option C | Sep 01 19:20 |
| cubezzz | or at worst, I ssh in and restart X | Sep 01 19:20 |
| cubezzz | and I can ssh in from multiple devices too :) | Sep 01 19:21 |
| DaemonFC | I mean when the kernel portion of the driver dies and the system freezes and the last 0.1 seconds of any audio that was playing starts skipping | Sep 01 19:21 |
| DaemonFC | I mean, when your video driver dies and takes out the rest of the system with shrapnel | Sep 01 19:21 |
| cubezzz | since 2003, I can't recall that happening | Sep 01 19:22 |
| DaemonFC | if it's *just* the X portion that's having a problem, then restarting X can sometimes work, of course you still lose all the files you have open that you haven't saved | Sep 01 19:22 |
| DaemonFC | so you end up losing everything even though the system didn't technically totally fail | Sep 01 19:23 |
| cubezzz | even if the video fails, that doesn't mean I'm going to lose data | Sep 01 19:24 |
| DaemonFC | yeah you will, killing and restarting X kills everything you had open in it | Sep 01 19:24 |
| cubezzz | I'm a good Linux peep, I use text files for most of my data | Sep 01 19:24 |
| DaemonFC | so what if I'm playing a game, and in the background, I have some incoming instant messages in the queue that I haven't read and a text file open that I am working on? | Sep 01 19:25 |
| DaemonFC | they're just gone (unless the text editor triggered an auto save" | Sep 01 19:25 |
| DaemonFC | *) | Sep 01 19:25 |
| *cubezzz shrugs | Sep 01 19:25 | |
| cubezzz | it's only a game | Sep 01 19:26 |
| cubezzz | it's probably a good idea to separate the important stuff from the game stuff | Sep 01 19:26 |
| DaemonFC | I suppose Pidgin does conveniently log all your messages in case the police ever confiscate your computer | Sep 01 19:26 |
| DaemonFC | so maybe that saves you | Sep 01 19:26 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 19:26 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: it's strange then that you praise Minix for the same things you berate Hurd for. | Sep 01 19:27 |
| MinceR | double standards? | Sep 01 19:27 |
| DaemonFC | No, the only thing I have against HURD is the license | Sep 01 19:27 |
| DaemonFC | that's why it will never run on more than a few pieces of hardware that the FSF itself writes drivers for | Sep 01 19:28 |
| cubezzz | with a really good UPS and a good power supply a Linux box can be very reliable | Sep 01 19:28 |
| DaemonFC | the design goals are good, they'll just never reach them with exactly 3-4 people working on the entire system | Sep 01 19:28 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: HURD is like saying "I want to develop a car that runs on the static electricity in the air" | Sep 01 19:29 |
| DaemonFC | "I want that and I want to restrict the development team to myself and 2-3 other people with no outside help or funding" | Sep 01 19:29 |
| DaemonFC | the end product that I've envisioned is perfect, everyone on Earth could use one, and I've immediately ensured it never happens due to setting the goals too high and restricting my development methodology | Sep 01 19:30 |
| cubezzz | BeOS was kind of pie-in-the-sky too | Sep 01 19:31 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is more like "How do we make a gasoline engine three times more efficient, and anyone can help us do it" | Sep 01 19:31 |
| DaemonFC | the goal isn't as lofty and anyone can help, so maybe it could get done | Sep 01 19:31 |
| ThistleWeb | to be fair Vista being a great success as a much adored lightweight Windows was also pie in the sky :P | Sep 01 19:32 |
| cubezzz | it's done, it's here, I built my own box and I'm using it on 3 machines | Sep 01 19:32 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yay! You're back :-) | Sep 01 19:33 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 7 does not use as much RAM as Vista, I don't know how they've done that, but they have. It still uses an inappropriate amount though. | Sep 01 19:33 |
| DaemonFC | DWM doesn't seem to bloat up anymore, it hovers around 6-10 megs of RAM used, in Vista it could balloon to over 200 | Sep 01 19:34 |
| MinceR | it must be really difficult to use less RAM than vista, vista is so efficient when it comes to RAM, right? oh, wait... | Sep 01 19:35 |
| cubezzz | now I'm wondering if SL-5500 had an MMU | Sep 01 19:35 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: yeah, because that license doomed GNU/Linux as we can see | Sep 01 19:35 |
| cubezzz | lol | Sep 01 19:35 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: No it didn't because Torvalds isn't a nut case | Sep 01 19:36 |
| DaemonFC | and won't use GPL 3 either | Sep 01 19:36 |
| DaemonFC | pretty much every FSF project tends to wither and die once the maintainer or two abandons it | Sep 01 19:36 |
| MinceR | btw it's kind of strange to judge the quality of software based on its license | Sep 01 19:37 |
| DaemonFC | there's some notable exceptions | Sep 01 19:37 |
| MinceR | one might say it's insane | Sep 01 19:37 |
| DaemonFC | not really | Sep 01 19:37 |
| MinceR | yes, all FSF projects withered and died | Sep 01 19:37 |
| DaemonFC | nobody can work on HURD because the FSF hates corporations contributing to their stuff | Sep 01 19:37 |
| MinceR | projects like the GNU utilities and emacs | Sep 01 19:37 |
| MinceR | oh, and gcc and glibc | Sep 01 19:37 |
| DaemonFC | so things that work fine on Linux would never be accepted | Sep 01 19:37 |
| MinceR | nobody ever works with FSF, as you can see | Sep 01 19:37 |
| cubezzz | I think gcc was important :) | Sep 01 19:38 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Look what they did to their Linux without "binary blobs" | Sep 01 19:38 |
| MinceR | perhaps you'd understand a bit more of the world if you pulled your head out of all that anti-FSF bullshit coming from m$ | Sep 01 19:38 |
| DaemonFC | see if you can make that work on anything | Sep 01 19:38 |
| MinceR | i can make it work on anything, because PCs tend to be compatible with some basic things | Sep 01 19:38 |
| DaemonFC | Linus Torvalds once said you don't want him designing your GUI | Sep 01 19:38 |
| MinceR | but it definitely won't use the hardware to its full power | Sep 01 19:38 |
| DaemonFC | GNU desgning your kernel would be a larger disaster I'm sure | Sep 01 19:38 |
| DaemonFC | well, if you boot up the FSF's version of Linux, there goes half your hardware support | Sep 01 19:39 |
| DaemonFC | so if you want your computer to run like a stroke victim, just use an FSF-approved kernel | Sep 01 19:39 |
| *ThistleWeb shakes head | Sep 01 19:39 | |
| DaemonFC | Hey, I'm not making this up, take ten off the shelf computers and boot them up on the FSF-approved Linux then the real Linux and see what works | Sep 01 19:40 |
| MinceR | if you like binary blobs so much, just use vista and go away | Sep 01 19:40 |
| DaemonFC | I don't even think one will fully work with the FSF's Linux | Sep 01 19:40 |
| MinceR | also, shut up because (as usual) you have no idea what you're talking about | Sep 01 19:41 |
| ThistleWeb | MinceR: he's going nowhere, he's a celeb here | Sep 01 19:41 |
| cubezzz | NFS ftw | Sep 01 19:41 |
| MinceR | i'd say you could think of where GNU/Linux would have gotten with a "sure, just give us binary blobs, they're fine" attitude | Sep 01 19:41 |
| MinceR | but you've already shown that you can't think | Sep 01 19:41 |
| DaemonFC | you'd lose over 2/3rds of your wifi drivers | Sep 01 19:41 |
| DaemonFC | half your NIC drivers | Sep 01 19:41 |
| DaemonFC | almost all of your video drivers | Sep 01 19:41 |
| cubezzz | I'm sure coding a video driver is pretty hard | Sep 01 19:42 |
| DaemonFC | nearly all your 3g card support | Sep 01 19:42 |
| MinceR | and what would you lose if you had allowed all hardware vendors to provide proprietary drivers? | Sep 01 19:42 |
| ThistleWeb | on the other hand, just because he has his place set in stone here does not mean that anyone has to respond to him | Sep 01 19:42 |
| MinceR | hint: ATI has already stopped supporting several of its GPUs | Sep 01 19:42 |
| DaemonFC | not if you want crippled 2d-only drivers like they provide | Sep 01 19:42 |
| MinceR | also, who would update the bttv driver to work with the newest kernel? | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Nvidia still supports cards they sold 10 years ago | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | nice try though | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | maybe when they don' | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | *don't | Sep 01 19:43 |
| MinceR | sadly, nobody makes such tuner cards anymore | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | I'll care | Sep 01 19:43 |
| cubezzz | I'm sure there must be some FOSS video drivers somewhere | Sep 01 19:43 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: news flash, nvidia isn't the only gpu manufacturer in the world | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | the only one that makes cards worth buying | Sep 01 19:43 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: also, you might want to check out how intel handles its gpu drivers | Sep 01 19:43 |
| DaemonFC | ATI cards are crap anyway | Sep 01 19:44 |
| cubezzz | MinceR, I was looking at the source for bttv just a week ago :) | Sep 01 19:44 |
| DaemonFC | Intel doesn't have any real GPUs | Sep 01 19:44 |
| MinceR | then what do they have? | Sep 01 19:44 |
| DaemonFC | just motherboard video | Sep 01 19:44 |
| MinceR | perhaps you've forgot that not all PCs are gaming rigs? | Sep 01 19:44 |
| DaemonFC | it's shitty and basic and you can't really use it for anything | Sep 01 19:44 |
| MinceR | i guess in m$ world they are | Sep 01 19:44 |
| DaemonFC | I mean real video cards | Sep 01 19:44 |
| MinceR | after all there's no serious work you can trust winblows with | Sep 01 19:44 |
| DaemonFC | Intel video is pretty backwards anyway | Sep 01 19:45 |
| DaemonFC | for the longest time they didn't even support DirectX 9 | Sep 01 19:45 |
| DaemonFC | (til like 2004 or so) | Sep 01 19:45 |
| MinceR | your central nervous system is pretty backwards too, yet you still keep getting unbanned | Sep 01 19:45 |
| MinceR | i don't support directx either | Sep 01 19:46 |
| DaemonFC | Nobody would willingly use Intel video except maybe on a crappy bargain laptop | Sep 01 19:46 |
| MinceR | yeah, nobody cares about battery life | Sep 01 19:46 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | Sep 01 19:46 |
| ThistleWeb | MinceR: just because he is somehow allowed to be the resident troll, that only works if people actually talk to him | Sep 01 19:46 |
| DaemonFC | at least Nvidia's integrated chipsets on a laptop perform several times better | Sep 01 19:46 |
| MinceR | ThistleWeb: someone will talk to him, even if i don't | Sep 01 19:46 |
| ThistleWeb | so let them | Sep 01 19:47 |
| MinceR | ThistleWeb: the only real way to handle trolls is to permban them | Sep 01 19:47 |
| MinceR | with extreme prejudice | Sep 01 19:47 |
| MinceR | and preferably to kill them with fire | Sep 01 19:47 |
| MinceR | (fire blocks their regeneration) | Sep 01 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | Intel videio is good enough reason to totally avoid a laptop | Sep 01 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | especially if you want your money's worth | Sep 01 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | *video | Sep 01 19:47 |
| wallclimber | lol, ThistleWeb, I've seen DaemonFC continue talking on and on and on, when no one at all responds...ignoring doesn't work on him | Sep 01 19:47 |
| ThistleWeb | it would be funny if nobody talked to him | Sep 01 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | unless you can get it really really insanely cheap | Sep 01 19:47 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: so why don't you just buy an xbox360 instead? | Sep 01 19:47 |
| ThistleWeb | wallclimber: yeah I don't get why he isn't banned | Sep 01 19:48 |
| ThistleWeb | ....again | Sep 01 19:48 |
| DaemonFC | I just don't get why people say "zOMG! Intel like totally works!!!11" when Intel is not even competing with Nvidia | Sep 01 19:49 |
| MinceR | btw, those intel GPUs you hate so much already have DRI2 and KMS support in their drivers and work out of the box with Linux | Sep 01 19:49 |
| MinceR | and you'll never guess why | Sep 01 19:49 |
| DaemonFC | nice, so my screen won't flicker before the system boots up and performs like shit? | Sep 01 19:49 |
| DaemonFC | sweet | Sep 01 19:49 |
| MinceR | so you can still use your system even if x.org crashes | Sep 01 19:49 |
| MinceR | for example. | Sep 01 19:49 |
| wallclimber | i think he has problems sometimes and sort of gets lost in his own world... | Sep 01 19:49 |
| MinceR | he got lost in m$ World | Sep 01 19:50 |
| DaemonFC | so it can come back up and I still can't use the system for anything beyond trivial anyway? | Sep 01 19:50 |
| ThistleWeb | wallclimber: that maybe so, but does he have to transport the rest of us to his own world? | Sep 01 19:50 |
| MinceR | so you can restart the x server | Sep 01 19:50 |
| DaemonFC | that's like saying you'll never crash because Intel won't get you off the ground | Sep 01 19:50 |
| ThistleWeb | it's like an island with no boats | Sep 01 19:50 |
| MinceR | just like how a certain microkernel can restart services that have crashed | Sep 01 19:50 |
| MinceR | which you happened to like | Sep 01 19:50 |
| ThistleWeb | where it's always pissing down with rain | Sep 01 19:50 |
| MinceR | ...because that microkernel wasn't GPLed | Sep 01 19:50 |
| MinceR | strange standards there | Sep 01 19:51 |
| DaemonFC | has nothing to do with it | Sep 01 19:51 |
| DaemonFC | GPL 2 is fine | Sep 01 19:51 |
| wallclimber | well, I just keep my feet firmly planted and do my best to not get swept away :o) | Sep 01 19:51 |
| MinceR | it was fine before the sw standards game started | Sep 01 19:51 |
| DaemonFC | it's not *just* the GPL 3 license that ensures HURD is a dead end | Sep 01 19:51 |
| MinceR | and before tivoization was discovered | Sep 01 19:51 |
| DaemonFC | it's the whackos at the FSF who won't accept any drivers | Sep 01 19:51 |
| ThistleWeb | all you can do is stick a deck chair out and swap the parasol for an umbrella huh? | Sep 01 19:51 |
| MinceR | somehow the sense of "free software" people had back then was acceptable to you? | Sep 01 19:51 |
| MinceR | or only now that m$ and some other bastards have found some ways to circumvent it? | Sep 01 19:51 |
| wallclimber | lol | Sep 01 19:51 |
| MinceR | "free software" is only good if your friends at m$ can steal it and give nothing back? | Sep 01 19:52 |
| DaemonFC | they're busy chasing away the only people that could make HURD a success | Sep 01 19:52 |
| DaemonFC | with their religious, anti-corporate zeal | Sep 01 19:52 |
| MinceR | it's only good if someone can make hardware that will screw its user at some time? | Sep 01 19:52 |
| MinceR | (just like a certain xerox printer RMS was using did?) | Sep 01 19:52 |
| wallclimber | ThistleWeb, he does seem to have a knack for pushing other people's buttons and until he gets a response | Sep 01 19:52 |
| DaemonFC | software dictating the hardware it runs on is exactly the behavior you knock MS over | Sep 01 19:52 |
| *Lns has quit ("Φ") | Sep 01 19:53 | |
| DaemonFC | but it's OK when the FSF does it | Sep 01 19:53 |
| DaemonFC | the GPL 3 is it's own form of DRM | Sep 01 19:53 |
| ThistleWeb | maybe he's a sposored troll | Sep 01 19:53 |
| MinceR | software dictating how the hardware works is how they work | Sep 01 19:53 |
| wallclimber | On that note, I'm heading back to work...take care all | Sep 01 19:53 |
| *wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 01 19:53 | |
| MinceR | it has nothing to do with anyone's strategy | Sep 01 19:53 |
| DaemonFC | GPL 3 is a form of DRM and you can't weasel your way out of that one | Sep 01 19:53 |
| MinceR | and now you're just spouting more idiotic nonsense | Sep 01 19:53 |
| MinceR | who's feeding you this bullshit anyway? | Sep 01 19:54 |
| DaemonFC | Digital Restrictions Management includes dictating where it can be used and who can use it | Sep 01 19:54 |
| DaemonFC | that's what the GPL 3 does | Sep 01 19:54 |
| MinceR | think that over again. | Sep 01 19:54 |
| DaemonFC | the GPL 3 is as damaging to software as Fairplay and Windows Media DRM are to music | Sep 01 19:54 |
| MinceR | the point of GPLv3 is that the _owner_ of the hardware can dictate how that hardware will work | Sep 01 19:55 |
| DaemonFC | if they want to masturbate around that license with their own software that will never go anywhere it's OK, they have the right | Sep 01 19:55 |
| MinceR | the point of DRM is that the person who bought the content is kept from controlling how it will work | Sep 01 19:55 |
| MinceR | they're precisely against each other | Sep 01 19:55 |
| DaemonFC | but it's not "free" software by their own definition | Sep 01 19:55 |
| MinceR | if you want to masturbate about your dreams how you'll become another ballmer in the future and rip people off, feel free to do so...elsewhere. | Sep 01 19:56 |
| MinceR | your crapflood is not welcome here. | Sep 01 19:56 |
| DaemonFC | and to say it's anything close to free software when you tell what hardware it can and can't run on is hypocrisy at best | Sep 01 19:56 |
| MinceR | it never was. | Sep 01 19:56 |
| MinceR | the only reason you were unbanned was some inexplicable hope that this time you won't crapflood the channel | Sep 01 19:56 |
| MinceR | every time Roy was proven wrong about it. | Sep 01 19:56 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Wasn't "free software" supposed to be used by anyone for any purpose? | Sep 01 19:56 |
| DaemonFC | that's not what GPL 3 lets you do | Sep 01 19:56 |
| MinceR | yes, and "anyone" happens to include the user | Sep 01 19:57 |
| MinceR | who happened to pay for that particular piece of hardware you desperately want to keep out of his control | Sep 01 19:57 |
| DaemonFC | no it doesn't | Sep 01 19:57 |
| DaemonFC | they're dictating third party hardware | Sep 01 19:57 |
| DaemonFC | not just what can be done with their software | Sep 01 19:57 |
| DaemonFC | they've crossed the line with that | Sep 01 19:57 |
| MinceR | i guess in your dictatoric vision people paying for something will get nothing for their money | Sep 01 19:57 |
| MinceR | no control, no ownership | Sep 01 19:57 |
| DaemonFC | it's like Microsoft reaching beyond Windows and designing your MP3 player hardware with their limitations | Sep 01 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | GPL 3 is the exact same behavior | Sep 01 19:58 |
| MinceR | no, FSF isn't dictating anything third-party | Sep 01 19:58 |
| MinceR | the authors of software decide that their work must remain free software | Sep 01 19:58 |
| MinceR | that's all it's about | Sep 01 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | if they buy crippled hardware, they deserve it | Sep 01 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | it's not about the software anymore at that point | Sep 01 19:58 |
| MinceR | you apparently insist on maintaining that crippled hardware | Sep 01 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | the FSF is trying to go beyond the area they have authority over | Sep 01 19:59 |
| DaemonFC | and establish their terms for third party hardware that they don't own | Sep 01 19:59 |
| MinceR | btw, they can make crippled hardware, as long as they don't rip off the work of those who wanted their work to be used in ethical ways | Sep 01 19:59 |
| MinceR | nobody is forcing you to put GNU/Linux on your DRM-laden piece of crap hardware | Sep 01 19:59 |
| DaemonFC | I'd say it's unethical for me to try to exercise authority over something I don't have any authority over | Sep 01 19:59 |
| DaemonFC | they don't get that | Sep 01 19:59 |
| MinceR | you can put windows on it and screw your customers all the way you want | Sep 01 19:59 |
| DaemonFC | they have no authority over the hardware you run it on | Sep 01 19:59 |
| MinceR | you even get to pay license fees to your favorite criminals | Sep 01 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | to even say they do makes their software nonfree | Sep 01 20:00 |
| MinceR | a software developer has no authority over a derivative work that's based on his work? | Sep 01 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | What if they said "Nobody with an Nvidia card can run our OS"? | Sep 01 20:00 |
| MinceR | that's an interesting interpretation of copyright :> | Sep 01 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | "Nobody with a Broadcom wifi adapter" | Sep 01 20:00 |
| MinceR | that wouldn't be free software | Sep 01 20:00 |
| MinceR | see freedom 0 | Sep 01 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | same thing | Sep 01 20:00 |
| *cubezzz ughs | Sep 01 20:00 | |
| DaemonFC | they anulled freedom 0 with GPL 3 | Sep 01 20:01 |
| MinceR | and they aren't saying it | Sep 01 20:01 |
| MinceR | no they didn't | Sep 01 20:01 |
| MinceR | they merely kept others from annulling _all four_ freedoms | Sep 01 20:01 |
| MinceR | with their new tricks | Sep 01 20:01 |
| DaemonFC | goes beyond their authority and it's a good thing for real free software that Linus Torvalds wasn't duped into following along with that | Sep 01 20:01 |
| DaemonFC | it's like helping them in spite of themselves to keep Linux GPL 2 | Sep 01 20:02 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 20:02 | |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't go beyond their authority | Sep 01 20:02 |
| MinceR | they didn't choose to GPL3 software they didn't create | Sep 01 20:02 |
| DaemonFC | I would consider GPL 3 to be in the same fake free software category as the Microsoft shared source licenses | Sep 01 20:02 |
| ThistleWeb | part of the issues every project had in moving from gpl2 to hpl3 was getting permission from everyone who contributed even a line of code | Sep 01 20:03 |
| DaemonFC | and their MS-PL bullshit | Sep 01 20:03 |
| ThistleWeb | tracking people down etc | Sep 01 20:03 |
| MinceR | you would consider anything to be "fake free software" that your idols can't rip off freely in some way | Sep 01 20:03 |
| MinceR | it's just like m$ whining about copyleft because they can't rip it off like they rip off BSDL all the time | Sep 01 20:03 |
| DaemonFC | ThistleWeb: It's good that the Linux maintainers won't do it too | Sep 01 20:03 |
| DaemonFC | good for everyone that they won't | Sep 01 20:04 |
| ThistleWeb | I'd imagine plenty of projects would like to go GPL3 but can't find everyone to get permission | Sep 01 20:04 |
| MinceR | they won't do it because there's a lot of inertia inherent in the system | Sep 01 20:04 |
| DaemonFC | good for users, good for development | Sep 01 20:04 |
| MinceR | and because they have been corrupted | Sep 01 20:04 |
| MinceR | gregkh getting to make decisions about the kernel shows how corrupted the leadership of the project has become | Sep 01 20:04 |
| DaemonFC | and I would consider a company using Linux as an integrated component a user of that software | Sep 01 20:04 |
| DaemonFC | so you're trampling over their freedom to adjust it to their needs too | Sep 01 20:04 |
| MinceR | they need to trample over the freedom of their users? | Sep 01 20:05 |
| MinceR | and i must let them/ | Sep 01 20:05 |
| MinceR | ? | Sep 01 20:05 |
| DaemonFC | the license also states that I, as a user of that hardware, have the right to modify the software in suc ha way to suit my needs | Sep 01 20:05 |
| DaemonFC | could that be bypassing their DRM module? | Sep 01 20:05 |
| MinceR | but you wish you couldn't | Sep 01 20:05 |
| MinceR | indeed it could be | Sep 01 20:05 |
| MinceR | come on, tell us how great DRM is | Sep 01 20:06 |
| MinceR | and how lucky we are that we can have it | Sep 01 20:06 |
| DaemonFC | the hardware maker distributed Linux components with that right involved to me | Sep 01 20:06 |
| DaemonFC | so I would say that legally, I inherited the right to modify it to ignore the DRM hardware, from the manufacturer | Sep 01 20:06 |
| MinceR | so? | Sep 01 20:06 |
| DaemonFC | so the FSF can mince words all they want, but in the end, they've removed the freedom to modify it to suit the user's needs | Sep 01 20:07 |
| MinceR | what. | Sep 01 20:07 |
| DaemonFC | suiting the user's needs is a broad term "So maybe if we only remove the ability to modify it to certain ends, it's OK" | Sep 01 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 01 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | that's their line of thinking | Sep 01 20:08 |
| MinceR | the user doesn't know what he needs so we must constrain him? | Sep 01 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | but unfortunately, it defies every word in "freedom 0" | Sep 01 20:08 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, you're full of shit | Sep 01 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0). | Sep 01 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | so you don't see how GPL 3 stops you from doing that? | Sep 01 20:09 |
| MinceR | what purpose does the ability to circumvent DRM deny you? | Sep 01 20:09 |
| trmanco | lol @ MinceR | Sep 01 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | you'd have to be pretty dense to see that the GPL 3 is a contradiction | Sep 01 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | *to not see | Sep 01 20:09 |
| MinceR | you'd have to be pretty dense to believe all the bullshit you've just said | Sep 01 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | well, it's an obvious contradiction and by contradicting freedom 0, GPL 3 software is no longer free software | Sep 01 20:10 |
| MinceR | it must be obvious to the "initiated" only | Sep 01 20:10 |
| DaemonFC | because it defies what's supposed to be their most important core principle | Sep 01 20:10 |
| MinceR | you can't explain it though | Sep 01 20:10 |
| DaemonFC | The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish (freedom 1). | Sep 01 20:10 |
| DaemonFC | it also defies freedom 1 because you can't make the software do what you wish | Sep 01 20:10 |
| DaemonFC | The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2). | Sep 01 20:11 |
| MinceR | perhaps your point is that you believe that the hw manufacturer couldn't modify the software because the user could still modify it afterwards? | Sep 01 20:11 |
| MinceR | and you don't see how that's wrong? | Sep 01 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | It defies freedom 2 becasue they can't redistribute it to their neighbors without violating 0 and 1 | Sep 01 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements (and modified versions in general) to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). | Sep 01 20:11 |
| MinceR | what is the glass you've drank the kool-aid from made of? | Sep 01 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | Well, they can do that as long as they follow the GPL 3 which removed freedom 0, 1, and 2 | Sep 01 20:12 |
| MinceR | it must be something pretty tough to withstand that | Sep 01 20:12 |
| DaemonFC | so the GPL 3 directly defies their definition of free software, but look at it this way | Sep 01 20:12 |
| DaemonFC | they could always redifine free software to say that the FSF has veto power over the 4 freedoms | Sep 01 20:13 |
| DaemonFC | which is really what they've done anyway | Sep 01 20:13 |
| MinceR | can you explain that? | Sep 01 20:13 |
| MinceR | how you've arrived at that conclusion? | Sep 01 20:13 |
| DaemonFC | already did, quite sufficiently | Sep 01 20:13 |
| MinceR | not quite | Sep 01 20:13 |
| MinceR | i've made one guess at it but you've ignored it | Sep 01 20:14 |
| MinceR | 211953 < MinceR> perhaps your point is that you believe that the hw manufacturer couldn't modify the software because the user could still modify it afterwards? | Sep 01 20:14 |
| DaemonFC | OK, see if you can folow me here | Sep 01 20:14 |
| DaemonFC | Item 1: The four freedoms "define" free software as the FSF sees it, correct? | Sep 01 20:14 |
| MinceR | correct | Sep 01 20:14 |
| DaemonFC | Use for any purpose and modified by anyone to meet those purposes is a core principle of the four freedoms, correct? | Sep 01 20:15 |
| MinceR | more or less | Sep 01 20:15 |
| DaemonFC | GPL 3 restricts the hardware that the software may be used on, which violates those core principles, would you agree? (if not, why? How?) | Sep 01 20:15 |
| DaemonFC | When it says any purpose and modified by anyone, how does that not include corporations modifying it to meet their needs? | Sep 01 20:16 |
| DaemonFC | and it's not just Tivo and user exploitative bullshit that uses the prohibited hardware btw | Sep 01 20:17 |
| DaemonFC | it could very well just be me using hardware encryption to protect my data from an oppressive government that could seize my computer | Sep 01 20:17 |
| DaemonFC | and GPL 3's blanket embargo on said hardware prevents me from making such a device | Sep 01 20:18 |
| MinceR | how would hardware encryption prevent modified software from running? | Sep 01 20:18 |
| MinceR | do you honestly believe that you can protect a computer from intrusion when physical access is already achieved? | Sep 01 20:18 |
| DaemonFC | the same class of device that enforces DRM could also be used as a personal data encryption device | Sep 01 20:18 |
| DaemonFC | such as the Iron Key | Sep 01 20:18 |
| MinceR | the key question is not whether the software can be replaced but rather who can replace it | Sep 01 20:19 |
| MinceR | i think the point is that the owner of the hardware should get to choose | Sep 01 20:19 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Would you say that since hardware encryption and self destruct capabilities of the Iron Key being theoretically possible to bypass means that people in the PRC should run down the street with printouts of their documents shouting "Long live the Falun Gong!"? | Sep 01 20:20 |
| DaemonFC | that would be quite ridiculous don't you think? | Sep 01 20:20 |
| MinceR | what | Sep 01 20:20 |
| DaemonFC | so the GPL 3 will actually damage legitimate uses of exactly the kind of hardware people need to protect sensitive data from overzealous governments and the like | Sep 01 20:21 |
| DaemonFC | so it took their freedom away | Sep 01 20:21 |
| DaemonFC | because someone wanted to record American Gladiators on their Tivo? | Sep 01 20:22 |
| MinceR | so you believe such hardware can't restrict its firmware upgrades to their owners? | Sep 01 20:22 |
| MinceR | (at least to the degree they're tamperproof) | Sep 01 20:22 |
| DaemonFC | if it does, I believe that the owner has the right to bypass said restrictions | Sep 01 20:22 |
| neighborlee | http://www.gnu.org/licenses/rms-why-gplv3.html < how is that worse than gpl2, I dont see it | Sep 01 20:22 |
| MinceR | (if we consider the case when the tamperproofing has been broken, any hardware meets the requirements) | Sep 01 20:23 |
| MinceR | i think the owner and _only_ the owner has that right | Sep 01 20:23 |
| neighborlee | Another threat that GPLv3 resists is that of patent deals like the Novell-Microsoft deal. < again tell me how thats worse ? | Sep 01 20:23 |
| MinceR | until he willingly gives others that right | Sep 01 20:23 |
| DaemonFC | I would agree with the GPL 3 if the license said "By redistributing this software with a device that implements DRM, you are assigning the end user of the device the legal right to circumvent the DRM" | Sep 01 20:23 |
| MinceR | then the mafiaa would simply rename DRM | Sep 01 20:24 |
| MinceR | and keep using it | Sep 01 20:24 |
| DaemonFC | I don't agree with "You may not use this software with hardware devices that match the following description..." | Sep 01 20:24 |
| MinceR | that's no solution | Sep 01 20:24 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC, you already can | Sep 01 20:24 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC, tivoization | Sep 01 20:24 |
| DaemonFC | the GPL 3 could have been much better | Sep 01 20:24 |
| MinceR | btw, even in the case of GPL2, you can get into situations where the license doesn't allow you to use the covered works | Sep 01 20:25 |
| DaemonFC | it could have given the users the right to crack the tivo-ish DRM while protecting the freedoms it inadvertently tramples | Sep 01 20:25 |
| MinceR | for example if you link it together with code under an incompatible license | Sep 01 20:25 |
| DaemonFC | I think they tried to do the right thing and went about it the wrong way | Sep 01 20:25 |
| MinceR | 213351 < DaemonFC> it could have given the users the right to crack the tivo-ish DRM while protecting the freedoms it inadvertently tramples | Sep 01 20:25 |
| MinceR | how? | Sep 01 20:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Reporter Believes Vista 7 and Office 2010 Keep Getting Worse with ‘Ribbons’ http://ur1.ca/axph | Sep 01 20:25 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Boycott Novell is back online (server issue). We had some decent posts today, so try again if failed earlier. | Sep 01 20:25 | |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: radian and Visible are some of the big players in their Turf | Sep 01 20:26 |
| schestowitz | I believe Radian6 are the biggest | Sep 01 20:26 |
| DaemonFC | by not restricting the hardware it ships on, but forcing the companies to license the right to bypass the DRM | Sep 01 20:26 |
| MinceR | keep in mind that 1) referring to names such as "DRM" is ineffective and 2) some people are very inventive about circumventing these restrictions (see the "covenant not to sue" trick) | Sep 01 20:26 |
| schestowitz | I learned about them while researching Visible | Sep 01 20:26 |
| *schestowitz gives channel operator status to Eruaran | Sep 01 20:26 | |
| MinceR | freedom is not "lack of restrictions whatsoever", btw | Sep 01 20:26 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: You would effectively neutralize the DRM and at the same time, things like hardware encryption chips are unaffected | Sep 01 20:26 |
| *schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitz | Sep 01 20:27 | |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: so, until you come up with effective legalese language that does what you say the GPLv3 should do, it remains the best tool for the job. | Sep 01 20:27 |
| DaemonFC | there's no reason other than possibly legal, why DRM cracking on a wide scale is suppressed anyway | Sep 01 20:27 |
| DaemonFC | this would make it not even worth their time and trouble to try to DRM their hardware | Sep 01 20:27 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: A good compromise means that nobody involved gets exactly what they want, but they do get an agreement they can all deal with | Sep 01 20:29 |
| DaemonFC | GPL 3 in its current form is dangerous because it puts a blanket ban on certain types of possibly benign hardware | Sep 01 20:29 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: what you're suggesting is where the people who want DRM and tivoization get what they want under different names and the rest of us get nothing | Sep 01 20:30 |
| DaemonFC | if it's dangerous and it would scare companies away from helping to develop Linux, Linux won't use it | Sep 01 20:30 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: that's not a good compromise | Sep 01 20:30 |
| DaemonFC | so their goals are not met at all anyway | Sep 01 20:30 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: once again, see the "covenant not to sue" trick | Sep 01 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Another Novell major just quit :-) | Sep 01 20:30 |
| schestowitz | She's leaving her 10-y-o company where she was CEO | Sep 01 20:31 |
| MinceR | the benign kinds of hardware you've mentioned remain workable and compatible with GPLv3 if implemented correctly | Sep 01 20:31 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, nice ;) | Sep 01 20:31 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, well I mean I hope she becomes gainfully employed etc, but nice | Sep 01 20:31 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: So what happens to me, in theory, if I developed a hardware encryption chip, and I used a theoretical Linux under GPL 3 to run the device, and the device was a personal encryption key meant to safeguard the data put on it? | Sep 01 20:32 |
| DaemonFC | I had no malicious intent to defraud the user, but the behavior of the device is banned by GPL 3, right? | Sep 01 20:32 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: one way would be implementing the firmware upgrade ("reflashing") in the way that the user can only do it if he knows the key -- which he must be able to know | Sep 01 20:33 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: it's in fact just like tivoization except you give the user the secret you'd otherwise withhold from him | Sep 01 20:33 |
| DaemonFC | that's what I'm getting at, it makes it impossible for the user to safeguard their data because someone wants to record a program on their Tivo | Sep 01 20:33 |
| MinceR | (well, and you probably have to generate unique keys per device) | Sep 01 20:33 |
| DaemonFC | it's like a form of friendly fire | Sep 01 20:34 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't | Sep 01 20:34 |
| MinceR | the user gets to use the device and reprogram it | Sep 01 20:34 |
| MinceR | others don't | Sep 01 20:34 |
| MinceR | still, it makes me wonder what sort of overcomplicated encryption chip needs to run an operating system | Sep 01 20:34 |
| DaemonFC | so if I have to make some modifications to the device to ensure the Chinese police don't jsut automatically know how it works, then that's against the license too, right? | Sep 01 20:35 |
| MinceR | so you have a device in mind that relies only on security by obscurity? | Sep 01 20:35 |
| DaemonFC | I mean you can see where I'm going with this | Sep 01 20:35 |
| schestowitz | Our server had a 8-hour downtime. I hope people got through to the Comes post. It took a long time to do (and 4 people) | Sep 01 20:35 |
| MinceR | or you realize that it's enough if the Chinese police doesn't know your _key_ | Sep 01 20:35 |
| MinceR | (Kerckhoff principle, anyone?) | Sep 01 20:35 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: yes, she becomes CEO in another company | Sep 01 20:36 |
| schestowitz | I found this out via a PR | Sep 01 20:36 |
| DaemonFC | what if the device is like an Iron Key and destroys itself if tampered with | Sep 01 20:36 |
| schestowitz | the press release (PR) gave it way | Sep 01 20:36 |
| DaemonFC | does that violate GPL 3? | Sep 01 20:36 |
| schestowitz | Novell would say nothing | Sep 01 20:36 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I was amused by your likening it to the Hollywood Communist blacklist | Sep 01 20:37 |
| DaemonFC | I found that kind of funny actually (true enough though) | Sep 01 20:37 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: i doubt it | Sep 01 20:37 |
| DaemonFC | in a horrific kind of way | Sep 01 20:37 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: but if you're really looking for corner cases, you shouldn't ask me, as i'm not a lawyer. ask FSF or SFLC. | Sep 01 20:38 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not against it ensuring the freedom of its users, but horse trading personal data protection for Chinese journalists to give me my Tivo back is kind of distasteful | Sep 01 20:39 |
| DaemonFC | you see where I'm coming from now? | Sep 01 20:39 |
| MinceR | i see it less with each sentence | Sep 01 20:39 |
| MinceR | horse? | Sep 01 20:39 |
| DaemonFC | I'd rather be frustrated by my Tivo refusing to record something than see a ban on devices like a hardware encryption thumbdrive | Sep 01 20:40 |
| MinceR | also, are you storing your Falun Gong videos on your TiVo or something? | Sep 01 20:40 |
| DaemonFC | GPL 3 could just be trading one problem for an even larger one | Sep 01 20:40 |
| MinceR | it doubt it encrypts any of the recordings | Sep 01 20:40 |
| MinceR | are you saying that the existence of GPLv3 precludes you from using any other license? | Sep 01 20:40 |
| schestowitz | Yes, they play "good journalist, BAD journalist" | Sep 01 20:41 |
| schestowitz | Bad, BAD journalist!! | Sep 01 20:41 |
| schestowitz | "Get 'im fired" | Sep 01 20:41 |
| MinceR | and that it makes hardware encrypted thumbdrives require an operating system? | Sep 01 20:41 |
| DaemonFC | no, but if I need something that uses the GPL 3 I'd have to rewrite that by myself from the ground up under my own license | Sep 01 20:41 |
| *jono has quit ("Later, Skater") | Sep 01 20:41 | |
| DaemonFC | I couldn't just relicense all of Linux or whatever | Sep 01 20:41 |
| MinceR | btw, you could look into modular design | Sep 01 20:41 |
| MinceR | unless you're going for DRM, not the entire computer system will need to be tamperproof | Sep 01 20:42 |
| DaemonFC | well, "hardware DRM" is just a marketing name for the same kind of device you'd use to encrypt your own data | Sep 01 20:43 |
| MinceR | except there's a fundamental difference between DRM and hardware encryption | Sep 01 20:43 |
| DaemonFC | the purpose of the user is the only difference really | Sep 01 20:43 |
| MinceR | in the case of DRM, it's necessary that the owner of the device doesn't find out the key | Sep 01 20:43 |
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| MinceR | in the case of real security, it's necessary that the owner of the device knows the key | Sep 01 20:44 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, good | Sep 01 20:44 |
| MinceR | and that influences the whole design | Sep 01 20:44 |
| DaemonFC | so if the owner knows it but I give it to them in such a way that they authorities don't find out (or let them generate their own), the device would be OK | Sep 01 20:44 |
| DaemonFC | correct? | Sep 01 20:44 |
| DaemonFC | *the | Sep 01 20:45 |
| MinceR | most likely, but i don't see what you're getting at | Sep 01 20:45 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Kind of like Iron Key | Sep 01 20:45 |
| DaemonFC | same class of device anyway | Sep 01 20:45 |
| DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IronKey | Sep 01 20:46 |
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| MinceR | and it's possible to make an IronKey based on GPLv3-ed software | Sep 01 20:46 |
| MinceR | as i've already explained | Sep 01 20:46 |
| MinceR | i've also explained that you don't have to do so. :> | Sep 01 20:47 |
| MinceR | and i'd rather have some tiny gadgets have their software written from scratch than to find out that some expensive piece of hardware (based on a lot of work i did) that i've bought screws me over because they've used my work to force DRM on me | Sep 01 20:48 |
| DaemonFC | Red Hat is rolling in money by selling other people's work | Sep 01 20:49 |
| DaemonFC | it was kind of implied it would happen and they worked on it anyway | Sep 01 20:50 |
| DaemonFC | as for the DRM part, yeah, maybe a point | Sep 01 20:50 |
| schestowitz | Red Hat contributed to Linux the most | Sep 01 20:50 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: your FUD is now welcome | Sep 01 20:51 |
| MinceR | Red Hat is also contributing back, in case you haven't noticed | Sep 01 20:51 |
| schestowitz | You bring anti-Linux venom here while typing it on the Vista/Vista 7 box of yours | Sep 01 20:51 |
| schestowitz | That does not help | Sep 01 20:51 |
| MinceR | oh, i've been beaten to it :> | Sep 01 20:51 |
| schestowitz | Stay on topic, respect the topic | Sep 01 20:51 |
| schestowitz | /snow/not/ | Sep 01 20:51 |
| schestowitz | /s/now/not/ | Sep 01 20:51 |
| schestowitz | <schestowitz> DaemonFC: your FUD is NOT welcome | Sep 01 20:51 |
| MinceR | maybe in the future after we've beaten m$, crApple and their ilk (and hopefully made an example of some of them), drastic measures like copyleft will become unnecessary | Sep 01 20:52 |
| ThistleWeb | schestowitz: he's never gonna listen to your wishes when you insist on him being the sponsored troll regardless of his actions | Sep 01 20:52 |
| MinceR | hopefully we'll also get rid of the current (broken) copyright system | Sep 01 20:52 |
| ThistleWeb | any threat is meaningless if there's nothing behind it | Sep 01 20:52 |
| ThistleWeb | no matter what he does, he's not gonna be banned | Sep 01 20:52 |
| ThistleWeb | and he knows it | Sep 01 20:52 |
| MinceR | and it shows | Sep 01 20:53 |
| ThistleWeb | so why should he listen? | Sep 01 20:53 |
| schestowitz | Re: BBC and MS ads, I wrote: "they still mention it. WinMob [sic] is a single-digit (percentile, market share) product." | Sep 01 20:53 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: was the BBC like this before? | Sep 01 20:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Twitter may be jumping a shark? http://bit.ly/gFHko | Sep 01 20:53 | |
| schestowitz | I only started reading it around 2003 | Sep 01 20:53 |
| DaemonFC | hmmmm | Sep 01 20:54 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: http://davefleet.com/2009/03/reviewing-radian6-features/ | Sep 01 20:54 |
| schestowitz | BBC World Service also has bosses joining from Microsoft | Sep 01 20:54 |
| DaemonFC | scroll down to Marcel LeBrun | Sep 01 20:54 |
| DaemonFC | in the comments' | Sep 01 20:54 |
| ThistleWeb | never really noticed the BBC's bias before I knew about Linux | Sep 01 20:54 |
| schestowitz | RADIAN6 SWAY team: shoot the blogger with a sniper before he hits "publish" | Sep 01 20:54 |
| schestowitz | *SWAT | Sep 01 20:54 |
| schestowitz | "you can assign posts to other members of your team," | Sep 01 20:55 |
| schestowitz | SWAT team? | Sep 01 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | mmhm | Sep 01 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | AIH Alerts | Sep 01 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | was what I googled for | Sep 01 20:55 |
| schestowitz | "Guy in India mocks Comcast... break and breach.. GO GO GO!!" | Sep 01 20:55 |
| ThistleWeb | personally I hope they're even more blatant, it's even more rope with which they will hang themselves | Sep 01 20:55 |
| schestowitz | Indiana even | Sep 01 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: It's "Breach, Open, Grenade" | Sep 01 20:56 |
| DaemonFC | et it right :) | Sep 01 20:56 |
| DaemonFC | then you clear the rest of the building | Sep 01 20:56 |
| DaemonFC | haven't you ever played any Rainbow Six games? hehe | Sep 01 20:56 |
| schestowitz | Gawd. I hate marketing people. | Sep 01 20:57 |
| schestowitz | I played the first SWAT game | Sep 01 20:57 |
| schestowitz | Sierra IIRC | Sep 01 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | I find that the 9mm works best when clearing buildings because you can aim it faster than the MP5 | Sep 01 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Sep 01 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | shoot for a kneecap and then when they stoop over, try for a head shot | Sep 01 20:58 |
| DaemonFC | saves a lot of ammo rather than emptying a clip into one person | Sep 01 20:58 |
| DaemonFC | (Who probably has body armor anyway) | Sep 01 20:58 |
| *MinceR prefers the Redeemer for cleaning buildings. | Sep 01 20:59 | |
| MinceR | or the Flak Cannon. | Sep 01 20:59 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I wish one of them would say what an AIH Alert stands for | Sep 01 21:00 |
| DaemonFC | I'd really like to know how much of a pain in the ass they view me as | Sep 01 21:00 |
| schestowitz | US Ad Spending Saw 15% Decline in Early '09 < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/01/us-ad-spending-saw-15-decline-in-early-09 > | Sep 01 21:00 |
| DaemonFC | Yeah, hopefully that includes the text ads on search engines | Sep 01 21:01 |
| DaemonFC | I always wondered why Google and Bing and Yahoo will sell text ads to malware spreaders pretending to be antivirus programs | Sep 01 21:01 |
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| schestowitz | Bong and Yahoo! are negligible | Sep 01 21:11 |
| schestowitz | Less than 9% combined, says one survey | Sep 01 21:11 |
| schestowitz | GOogle has over 90% market share | Sep 01 21:12 |
| schestowitz | So Yahoo!+MS=nothing of use | Sep 01 21:12 |
| schestowitz | As long as GOogle does not FORCE me to use their apps and OS I'm OK | Sep 01 21:12 |
| DaemonFC | "My post about the Playstation 3 spawned a comment from a fellow in Japan who hammed up his love for PS3 so much that anyone should have been suspicious that he may have been a Sony representative in disguise, needless to say, I hit the "Spam It" button and that's the last I ever heard of him. " | Sep 01 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | from a post I'm writing about Radian6 | Sep 01 21:13 |
| schestowitz | Radian means what exactly? Sounds like spinning. | Sep 01 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | "For those that don't know, whenever you write a blog post about Comcast, apparently the folks at Radian6 will index it and flag it for review by a Comcast employee, this is so they have a chance to try to derail the conversation. Obviously that's harder on a blog like this because I don't *have* to accept messages that are obviously that sort of spam in disguise." | Sep 01 21:13 |
| schestowitz | Or derives from radio | Sep 01 21:13 |
| schestowitz | As in, "we keep radar on bloggers" | Sep 01 21:14 |
| schestowitz | Then spinning (rad) | Sep 01 21:14 |
| MinceR | you can just call "Yahoo!+MS" "MS" now | Sep 01 21:15 |
| MinceR | bing has assimilated yahoo | Sep 01 21:15 |
| MinceR | (bing borg) | Sep 01 21:16 |
| schestowitz | asay vs gpl (IMHO): http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10322362-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad | Sep 01 21:17 |
| schestowitz | "Personally, I think awards should be given based on the merits that will most appeal to IT buyers, and such will have little to nothing to do with business model nuances and everything to do with solving business problems at a compelling price. If Zenoss is the better enterprise IT bet, shouldn't it get the Bossie, regardless of OpenNMS' licensing model?" | Sep 01 21:17 |
| schestowitz | AFAIK, both NMS and zenoss are gpl | Sep 01 21:17 |
| schestowitz | NMS promotes it even. They are really good in defense of GPL | Sep 01 21:17 |
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| MinceR | i don't have time to waste on asay now :) | Sep 01 21:19 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: don't worry, he ain't blogging much anymore | Sep 01 21:27 |
| schestowitz | The damage is confined | Sep 01 21:27 |
| schestowitz | He changed his mind on stuff | Sep 01 21:28 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@41.249.46.44) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 21:28 | |
| schestowitz | Puts family ($$ income) ahead of ethics, not that he's an unethical person | Sep 01 21:28 |
| schestowitz | There are ways or rearding for ethivcs | Sep 01 21:28 |
| MinceR | was he ever ethical? | Sep 01 21:28 |
| _Hicham_ | I am always ethical | Sep 01 21:28 |
| schestowitz | But most industries are strutcured to reward (bribe?) exploitation | Sep 01 21:28 |
| schestowitz | Like USPTO | Sep 01 21:29 |
| MinceR | ...do crApple fanboys even know what the word "ethical" means? | Sep 01 21:29 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, you are | Sep 01 21:29 |
| schestowitz | seller_liar is another | Sep 01 21:29 |
| MinceR | even considering that it's longer than two syllables? | Sep 01 21:29 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: they know iThical | Sep 01 21:29 |
| MinceR | there's no such product | Sep 01 21:29 |
| schestowitz | Maybe | Sep 01 21:29 |
| schestowitz | Maybe not | Sep 01 21:29 |
| trmanco | wow | Sep 01 21:30 |
| trmanco | http://kde.org/announcements/announce-4.3.1.php | Sep 01 21:30 |
| trmanco | already | Sep 01 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Yeah | Sep 01 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Seen it an hour ago | Sep 01 21:30 |
| schestowitz | I'm gonna post to cOLA | Sep 01 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Ken wrote about kde4 too | Sep 01 21:30 |
| schestowitz | He writes very well | Sep 01 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft is very demoralised now | Sep 01 21:32 |
| schestowitz | So is Novell | Sep 01 21:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] High chair and v nice (£400 new) pram to give away, F is too big for 'em. Must be fetched from us in London E17. Email dgerard@gmail.com . | Sep 01 21:32 | |
| schestowitz | Those who can, leave | Sep 01 21:32 |
| schestowitz | It's a good opportunity for kde to pick up. Vista 7 will take a month before people smell the body | Sep 01 21:33 |
| schestowitz | It's currently used mostly by fanboys like DaemonFC: | Sep 01 21:33 |
| _Hicham_ | Vista is a bunch of stolen ideas | Sep 01 21:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] KDE 4.3.1 Released: http://is.gd/2LN4m !kde Wow, already :D #kde | Sep 01 21:33 | |
| schestowitz | Ordinary people don't even have THE PC to run the damn resource hog | Sep 01 21:33 |
| schestowitz | ANd they use software that's not compatible with it | Sep 01 21:34 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC is an MS employee | Sep 01 21:34 |
| schestowitz | They don't know jack about virtualisation | Sep 01 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft treats Average Joe like he's an MSDN subs | Sep 01 21:34 |
| _Hicham_ | MS pays his comcast connection | Sep 01 21:34 |
| MinceR | one would think they can afford more coherent trolls | Sep 01 21:34 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : he is an excellent troll | Sep 01 21:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Linux powers world's fastest stock exchange: http://is.gd/2LNcF | Sep 01 21:35 | |
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| DaemonFC | a $500 PC I bought last year runs it fine | Sep 01 21:38 |
| DaemonFC | *shrugs* | Sep 01 21:38 |
| DaemonFC | that's about as mainstream as it gets I think | Sep 01 21:38 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco KDE 4.3.1 Released: http://is.gd/2LN4m !kde Wow, already :D #kde | Sep 01 21:39 | |
| _Hicham_ | great, DaemonFC is still alive | Sep 01 21:41 |
| DaemonFC | If I'm an excellent troll, then why exactly have I said some of the things I've said about Windows? | Sep 01 21:42 |
| DaemonFC | you seem to just gloss over the parts that sicken me enough to write an entire page about my disgust | Sep 01 21:42 |
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| DaemonFC | the "Windows 7 Sins" site even said what pisses big media off the most is that it's "still your computer" and they "can't stop you from running other programs" | Sep 01 21:43 |
| DaemonFC | so by their own admission, no DRM component will work as long as you can easily bypass it by using other programs | Sep 01 21:43 |
| MinceR | do you think that will change the way things for most customers? | Sep 01 21:44 |
| MinceR | s/gs/gs work/ | Sep 01 21:44 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: The ones that care enough to avoid it will avoid it | Sep 01 21:44 |
| DaemonFC | the lazy and incompetent will just use what is there | Sep 01 21:44 |
| MinceR | or they'll be unable to use it on their portable player | Sep 01 21:45 |
| DaemonFC | even Microsoft is having a hard time convincing people to use Internet Explorer | Sep 01 21:45 |
| MinceR | just because it happens to support a different incarnation of FailsForSure | Sep 01 21:45 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Nothing stops you from using Vorbis on Windows or transferring it to your portable player | Sep 01 21:45 |
| MinceR | nothing stops me from upgrading to gnu/linux either | Sep 01 21:45 |
| DaemonFC | I think that pretty much says that it's still my computer | Sep 01 21:45 |
| *amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-56-82.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 21:46 | |
| DaemonFC | they can't force me to use Windows Media or WM-DRM | Sep 01 21:46 |
| MinceR | they can degrade the quality of the video signal that is sent to your display, though | Sep 01 21:46 |
| DaemonFC | when? | Sep 01 21:46 |
| MinceR | and they can waste 10% of your CPU cycles on doing DRM-related hardware checks | Sep 01 21:46 |
| MinceR | when they feel like, apparently | Sep 01 21:47 |
| DaemonFC | when you use Blu Ray discs that use the constraint token? | Sep 01 21:47 |
| DaemonFC | I've watched plenty of high definition rips on this system without issue | Sep 01 21:47 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think any discs even use that token, yet | Sep 01 21:47 |
| MinceR | how utterly reassuring | Sep 01 21:48 |
| DaemonFC | Anyway, the discs are trivial to rip even if they do | Sep 01 21:48 |
| DaemonFC | and eventually VLC will play them, do you think VLC will respect the constraint token? | Sep 01 21:48 |
| DaemonFC | I don't | Sep 01 21:48 |
| DaemonFC | the only way something could get on my system that uses DRM is if I encode it and use DRM myself, and that's not likely to happen | Sep 01 21:49 |
| DaemonFC | so I think it's much ado about next-to-nothing | Sep 01 21:49 |
| DaemonFC | The reason I'm angry about Windows Media Center and cable is obvious, but I uninstalled it and use other media center software | Sep 01 21:50 |
| DaemonFC | so the argument is still kind of academic | Sep 01 21:50 |
| MinceR | then the amount of time wasted on continually checking that your hardware supports DRM must be academic, too | Sep 01 21:52 |
| DaemonFC | it's trivial | Sep 01 21:52 |
| DaemonFC | it also serves a useful purpose | Sep 01 21:52 |
| MinceR | pray tell, what useful purpose does it serve? | Sep 01 21:52 |
| MinceR | keeps your computer from running too fast? | Sep 01 21:53 |
| DaemonFC | the system will figure out if a driver has stopped responding and resurrect it almost immediately | Sep 01 21:53 |
| MinceR | keeps your electricity bill from being too low? | Sep 01 21:53 |
| DaemonFC | it has almost no impact on performance | Sep 01 21:53 |
| MinceR | so, do drivers die so often on your winblows boxes? | Sep 01 21:53 |
| DaemonFC | no | Sep 01 21:53 |
| DaemonFC | but if it does happen, the system will restart it immediately | Sep 01 21:53 |
| MinceR | so how does that justify wasting a significant amount of resources on checking them? | Sep 01 21:54 |
| MinceR | (also, what makes you think it will even work that way?) | Sep 01 21:54 |
| DaemonFC | Windows, unlike Linux, doesn't kill all your open programs if the drivers for your GPU go down | Sep 01 21:54 |
| MinceR | LOL | Sep 01 21:54 |
| DaemonFC | when it comes back up, your programs are still there | Sep 01 21:54 |
| MinceR | neither kills all your open programs | Sep 01 21:54 |
| MinceR | they just freeze solid | Sep 01 21:54 |
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| DaemonFC | I've had driver crashes a few times on Vista, haven't had it happen on 7 | Sep 01 21:55 |
| MinceR | then they won't happen ever, right? | Sep 01 21:55 |
| DaemonFC | I had an issue with a beta of Windows 7 while using a Logitech driver meant for Vista, that's fixed now | Sep 01 21:55 |
| DaemonFC | has been for a few months | Sep 01 21:55 |
| MinceR | ...but then why keep checking it? | Sep 01 21:55 |
| DaemonFC | the performance impact is negligible and nothing is 100% reliable | Sep 01 21:56 |
| DaemonFC | if it ever does happen, you'll be glad the system can recover itself and go on like nothing ever happened | Sep 01 21:56 |
| MinceR | the benchmarks i've seen were hardly negligible | Sep 01 21:56 |
| DaemonFC | if it never happens, the performance impact is almost nonexistent | Sep 01 21:56 |
| DaemonFC | so it's almost like extra reliability that didn't cost you anything | Sep 01 21:57 |
| DaemonFC | not the intended purpose of device polling, but a nice side effect | Sep 01 21:57 |
| DaemonFC | When X freezes, sometimes you can kill it and all the graphical programs you have running, and log back in | Sep 01 21:58 |
| DaemonFC | it's the same as the system crashing, you jsut get to log back in and start over without a full reboot | Sep 01 21:58 |
| DaemonFC | if that's your idea of the kernel being reliable, then yes, it wasn't technically a kernel problem | Sep 01 21:59 |
| DaemonFC | the rocket scientists behind X removed your ability to restart it unless you edit the xorg.conf file by hand and restore the ability to use ctrl-alt-bksp | Sep 01 22:00 |
| cubezzz | I can ctrl-alt-bksp | Sep 01 22:00 |
| cubezzz | this box is fc1 though | Sep 01 22:00 |
| DaemonFC | so you'll probably forget to do that and still end up having to hold the power button in anyway, unless you can still switch to another virtual terminal and kill X from there and restart it, remembering not to ever use startx as root even though you need to be root to kill it | Sep 01 22:01 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 01 22:01 |
| DaemonFC | Jesus, I love X | Sep 01 22:01 |
| DaemonFC | can you feel the love? | Sep 01 22:01 |
| MinceR | not really | Sep 01 22:01 |
| DaemonFC | good | Sep 01 22:01 |
| MinceR | but having used winblows today (in vmware, on a remote server), all i can say is that i wish that you continue to use winblows | Sep 01 22:02 |
| DaemonFC | X is a big steaming pile of fail and it still belongs in the 1990s | Sep 01 22:02 |
| MinceR | that's one of the worst things i can wish for anyone :> | Sep 01 22:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] World's Most (Mission-) Critical Servers Run GNU/Linux http://bit.ly/piStJ | Sep 01 22:02 | |
| MinceR | windows is a big steaming pile of fail and it still belongs in hell | Sep 01 22:02 |
| DaemonFC | that's why servers don't run X unless you're crazy | Sep 01 22:03 |
| DaemonFC | it cuts your reliability down exponentially | Sep 01 22:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenGL 3 Support Coming to Mesa on Linux http://bit.ly/jb3Al | Sep 01 22:03 | |
| DaemonFC | also uses a lot of valuable resources even when it does manage to run | Sep 01 22:03 |
| cubezzz | well, a pure server doesn't need X | Sep 01 22:04 |
| cubezzz | but a general purpose machine will need it | Sep 01 22:04 |
| cubezzz | zaurus doesn't use X | Sep 01 22:05 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Network is unreachable) | Sep 01 22:05 | |
| cubezzz | not sure what alternatives exist | Sep 01 22:06 |
| cubezzz | there's Qtopia | Sep 01 22:06 |
| DaemonFC | the UNIX Hater's Handbook (1994?) dedicated an entire chapter to X and called it the fastest way to turn your brand new workstation into a 4.77 Mhz IBM PC | Sep 01 22:07 |
| DaemonFC | not a lot has changed | Sep 01 22:07 |
| MinceR | the unix hater's handbook is full of shit | Sep 01 22:07 |
| MinceR | and tell me, how often is a server even connected to a display, let alone managed locally? | Sep 01 22:08 |
| MinceR | just because your favorite "server-grade" windows insists on blowing CPU cycles on drawing a desktop doesn't mean it's a fundamental necessity for a server | Sep 01 22:08 |
| DaemonFC | it doesn't have to | Sep 01 22:09 |
| DaemonFC | there's Server Core | Sep 01 22:09 |
| MinceR | (neither is blowing 280MB RAM on SQL Server holding nothing, nor is opening countless backdoors via IIS, by the way) | Sep 01 22:09 |
| MinceR | well, that's great -- just like the hypePhone, maybe it will mature into something usable in sometime around 3011 | Sep 01 22:09 |
| DaemonFC | http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/comcast-deploying-astroturfing-services-of-radian6-spying-on-blog-postings-with-their-services/ | Sep 01 22:09 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Targets the Brains at CMU, Gets Another Partner (Innovativ) http://ur1.ca/axxb http://ur1.ca/axxc | Sep 01 22:11 | |
| cubezzz | in the 80's we ran Unix System V with curses :) | Sep 01 22:12 |
| cubezzz | don't recall even using X | Sep 01 22:12 |
| DaemonFC | ahhh, puns | Sep 01 22:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] And now, a couple of verses for Republican evangelist Christians http://is.gd/2LPmd | Sep 01 22:12 | |
| DaemonFC | I love puns | Sep 01 22:12 |
| DaemonFC | "cubezzz| in the 80's we ran Unix System V with curses" Yes, I'm sure everyone who uses UNIX curses, a lot ;) | Sep 01 22:13 |
| cubezzz | I wasn't a big fan of unix 20 years ago either | Sep 01 22:14 |
| cubezzz | but it grew on me | Sep 01 22:14 |
| cubezzz | plus the more experienced Unix guys were kind of snobby | Sep 01 22:15 |
| DaemonFC | "Here's a nickel kid, go buy yourself a real computer" | Sep 01 22:15 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 22:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sony Imperils Self with Linux Exclusion http://bit.ly/ZoItG | Sep 01 22:15 | |
| DaemonFC | Me: "Santa!? Is that you!?" | Sep 01 22:15 |
| cubezzz | there wasn't very much hobbyist Unix users at the time | Sep 01 22:15 |
| cubezzz | but the alternatives were: WIndows 2.0, desqiew, ms dos and topview | Sep 01 22:16 |
| cubezzz | looking back, Unix System V was the best of the bunch | Sep 01 22:16 |
| DaemonFC | of course there weren't, using UNIX as a hobby probably came second to the hobby of smearing your genitals with peanut butter and letting loose a group of rabid dogs | Sep 01 22:16 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Sep 01 22:16 |
| cubezzz | well, and there was VAX | Sep 01 22:17 |
| DaemonFC | even people that had to use it at work hated it | Sep 01 22:17 |
| cubezzz | and AmigaDos was just starting | Sep 01 22:17 |
| cubezzz | I think Radio Shack was using Unix at one point | Sep 01 22:18 |
| DaemonFC | Xenix | Sep 01 22:18 |
| DaemonFC | Radio Shack was selling Tandy systems with Microsoft Xenix | Sep 01 22:18 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Makes JBoss More Professional http://bit.ly/UdE2q | Sep 01 22:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Interesting FF extension Invisible Hand http://www.getinvisiblehand.com/ FAQ http://www.getinvisiblehand.com/faq/ Any reports? | Sep 01 22:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Gmail's web interface is back online! #gmail | Sep 01 22:18 | |
| DaemonFC | and eventually, IBM PCs with it, that didn't last long | Sep 01 22:18 |
| cubezzz | SCO Unix System V was what we were using back in the day | Sep 01 22:19 |
| DaemonFC | eventually everything was using DOS cause it was cheaper to license | Sep 01 22:19 |
| cubezzz | when did Microsoft kill Xenix? | Sep 01 22:19 |
| DaemonFC | 1989 I think | Sep 01 22:19 |
| DaemonFC | they sold it to SCO | Sep 01 22:19 |
| cubezzz | I'll have to check my programming notes | Sep 01 22:20 |
| DaemonFC | throughout most of the 80s, Xenix was about the only way to run UNIX on your PC, | Sep 01 22:20 |
| cubezzz | I thought SCO Unix System V was before 1989 but I'm not positive | Sep 01 22:20 |
| cubezzz | I wrote some code in that era, let me check | Sep 01 22:21 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Couldn't put it myself. Windows Users: the Charlie Browns of computing http://is.gd/2LPS9 | Sep 01 22:21 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MontaVista Linux 6 Targets Many Architectures http://bit.ly/KFh55 | Sep 01 22:21 | |
| MinceR | at least unix was an operating system before gates and ballmer even knew what that was | Sep 01 22:22 |
| MinceR | and windows still is just an annoying toy | Sep 01 22:22 |
| DaemonFC | As for the comment on Norton being useless, I agree fully | Sep 01 22:23 |
| DaemonFC | http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/08/windows-users-charlie-browns-of.html | Sep 01 22:23 |
| cubezzz | we didn't use windows 2.0 we just evaluated it | Sep 01 22:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] VoIP Gateway from Sangoma Abandons Windows-only and Ports to Linux http://ur1.ca/axxw | Sep 01 22:23 | |
| DaemonFC | I don't think anyone used Windows 2.0 | Sep 01 22:23 |
| MinceR | last time i've heard symantec's "experts" talk on the radio i groaned | Sep 01 22:24 |
| MinceR | it's painful to hear that degree of incompetence | Sep 01 22:24 |
| MinceR | thankfully, i don't remember what they said | Sep 01 22:24 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Almost every time someone brings me their infected system, it's using Norton | Sep 01 22:24 |
| MinceR | :> | Sep 01 22:24 |
| DaemonFC | that kind of proves it's useless | Sep 01 22:24 |
| cubezzz | yikes I paid $1300 for my first amiga hard drive | Sep 01 22:25 |
| MinceR | it's really a disgrace that they still put Peter Norton's name on that crap | Sep 01 22:25 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Actually, I've started using Windows Security Essentials to disinfect those systems | Sep 01 22:25 |
| DaemonFC | it seems to be able to root out all the serious bad stuff | Sep 01 22:25 |
| MinceR | except Bonzi Buddy? | Sep 01 22:25 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: I cleaned out my aunt's system using WSE and the only thing I found when I ran another scan with Spybot S&D were a couple registry entries that WSE had overlooked | Sep 01 22:26 |
| DaemonFC | it removed all of the actual spyware | Sep 01 22:26 |
| MinceR | well, that's one lucky instance | Sep 01 22:26 |
| DaemonFC | Norton was actually harder to remove than the spyware | Sep 01 22:26 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 22:26 |
| cubezzz | I stopped using Norton produces a while ago | Sep 01 22:27 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Installing antivirus after the fact is always a dicey proposition | Sep 01 22:27 |
| cubezzz | products | Sep 01 22:27 |
| MinceR | i know | Sep 01 22:27 |
| DaemonFC | your best bet is to use good antivirus before the shit takes over the system | Sep 01 22:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Future of Sub-notebooks May be Linux-only (ARM) http://ur1.ca/axy5 | Sep 01 22:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jolicloud (GNU/Linux) Impresses http://bit.ly/DjgAV | Sep 01 22:27 | |
| MinceR | though nowadays you could just plug the HDD into a machine that already has antivirus sw | Sep 01 22:27 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I have Jolicloud | Sep 01 22:27 |
| DaemonFC | I like it | Sep 01 22:27 |
| MinceR | or use a livecd/livedvd | Sep 01 22:27 |
| DaemonFC | I've been meaning to write something about it | Sep 01 22:28 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, I also ran my Avast and Avira boot CDs after that | Sep 01 22:28 |
| DaemonFC | to make sure I got it all | Sep 01 22:28 |
| DaemonFC | they didn't find anything | Sep 01 22:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OLPC Deployment in Sminthi Runs GNU/Linux http://bit.ly/kxm6K | Sep 01 22:28 | |
| DaemonFC | I make antivirus boot CDs on CD-RWs and reburn them every month or so to make sure their pattern files are up to date | Sep 01 22:29 |
| DaemonFC | it's some extra insurance against something taking the system over that I can't get rid of while Windows is running | Sep 01 22:29 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Success) | Sep 01 22:30 | |
| MinceR | can't they just update over the network into RAM? | Sep 01 22:30 |
| DaemonFC | ? | Sep 01 22:30 |
| DaemonFC | what can? | Sep 01 22:30 |
| DaemonFC | the virus? | Sep 01 22:30 |
| MinceR | the livecd/livedvd | Sep 01 22:30 |
| DaemonFC | oh | Sep 01 22:30 |
| MinceR | boot up, update signatures, scan, reboot | Sep 01 22:30 |
| DaemonFC | no, it's a boot CD | Sep 01 22:30 |
| MinceR | sure it's a boot CD | Sep 01 22:31 |
| DaemonFC | it has the pattern files on the CD | Sep 01 22:31 |
| DaemonFC | you can if Linux recognizes your NIC | Sep 01 22:31 |
| MinceR | but it could theoretically still download the newest pattern files from the internet into RAM | Sep 01 22:31 |
| DaemonFC | or if you have access to the internet | Sep 01 22:31 |
| DaemonFC | so I keep the disc updated anyway | Sep 01 22:31 |
| MinceR | i don't think i've ever had a pc in which linux didn't handle the Ethernet NIC out-of-the-box | Sep 01 22:31 |
| DaemonFC | I have | Sep 01 22:31 |
| DaemonFC | it's been a few years though and it was eventually supported | Sep 01 22:32 |
| MinceR | must be your evil anti-FLOSS aura | Sep 01 22:32 |
| DaemonFC | well, go back 8-9 years, and nothing worked with Linux | Sep 01 22:32 |
| DaemonFC | the fact it works now must be the evil aura of corporate drivers | Sep 01 22:32 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 22:32 |
| DaemonFC | it turns out that it helps a lot if you have an Intel or AMD motherboard, and Intel and AMD make drivers for their motherboards | Sep 01 22:33 |
| DaemonFC | go figure | Sep 01 22:33 |
| DaemonFC | but then you have HURD and "We don't need no stinkin' drivers, holmes!" | Sep 01 22:34 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Sep 01 22:34 |
| DaemonFC | "Go away with your fascist corporately funded developers" | Sep 01 22:34 |
| DaemonFC | "It only boots on two systems, but we did it all by ourselves" | Sep 01 22:35 |
| DaemonFC | you almost can't help but to pity them | Sep 01 22:35 |
| *Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@68.238.49.173) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 22:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google One Step Closer to Preinstalling GNU/Linux (Chrome OS) on PCs http://ur1.ca/axyv | Sep 01 22:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Leading bank in Indian Bank Dumps Microsoft Office for OpenOffice.org http://ur1.ca/axyz | Sep 01 22:36 | |
| DaemonFC | "Finally, a clear choice for consumers." yeah, instead of one browser that has no adblock, that you didn't request, you now have two. | Sep 01 22:36 |
| DaemonFC | this is progress | Sep 01 22:36 |
| DaemonFC | It failed to mention the precise amount of the pile of cash Google bribed them with | Sep 01 22:37 |
| cubezzz | oh and we used some NCR 68020 systems in the 80's | Sep 01 22:39 |
| cubezzz | forget what the OS was, some kind of Unix | Sep 01 22:39 |
| DaemonFC | What is the answer to one piece of software bundled that nobody wanted? | Sep 01 22:39 |
| DaemonFC | apparently more bundled software nobody wanted | Sep 01 22:40 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Sep 01 22:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] European Union Releases More Free Software, Seeks Openness in Literature http://ur1.ca/axz9 http://ur1.ca/axza | Sep 01 22:40 | |
| cubezzz | definitely there wasn't the mono culture back then | Sep 01 22:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apache is /far/ ahead of non-Free software. http://bit.ly/10BXyD | Sep 01 22:41 | |
| MinceR | 234208 < DaemonFC> it turns out that it helps a lot if you have an Intel or AMD motherboard, and Intel and AMD make drivers for their motherboards | Sep 01 22:41 |
| MinceR | it helps anyway | Sep 01 22:41 |
| MinceR | what else is there? SiS? VIA? no please. | Sep 01 22:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | intel and amd do? | Sep 01 22:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | for windows, yes | Sep 01 22:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | for linux intel and amd donate drivers, the kernel dev community makes them work | Sep 01 22:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | also, VIA is actually pretty good at shit now, MinceR | Sep 01 22:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Paying Premium is So Yesterday, Suggests Wired Magazine http://ur1.ca/axzc | Sep 01 22:42 | |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: tell that to my shitty VIA EPIA | Sep 01 22:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | what, on linux? they work fine | Sep 01 22:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | sounds like user error | Sep 01 22:43 |
| DaemonFC | without hardware makers handing over tons of GPL'd code, Linux would still be a catastrophe that only worked with a few bits and pieces from each hardware category | Sep 01 22:44 |
| MinceR | yes, my bad for plugging an USB HDD, unplugging it, and for not doing anything at all | Sep 01 22:44 |
| cubezzz | VIA, hmmm | Sep 01 22:44 |
| DaemonFC | a true community project like this is not possible on the scale of Linux | Sep 01 22:44 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: so Linux is composed of drivers now? | Sep 01 22:45 |
| DaemonFC | no, but it won't be worth anything at all to you without them | Sep 01 22:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: sounds like user error | Sep 01 22:46 |
| DaemonFC | HURD is like getting the steel framework of a building in place then stopping | Sep 01 22:46 |
| *amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04 | Sep 01 22:46 | |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: via's usb shit has been supported since 486s roamed the plains | Sep 01 22:46 |
| DaemonFC | and that's all it will ever be | Sep 01 22:46 |
| cubezzz | I always umount before I unplug | Sep 01 22:46 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: well, then it's supported shit. | Sep 01 22:46 |
| MinceR | cubezzz: duh | Sep 01 22:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/boingboing/iBag/~3/RCiJ62DXtoY/open-design-for-a-67.html | Sep 01 22:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | fffffffffffffffffffff | Sep 01 22:46 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: doesn't make it non-shit | Sep 01 22:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: see url | Sep 01 22:46 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: and by the way, sounds like fuck you. | Sep 01 22:47 |
| MinceR | i'm just saying. | Sep 01 22:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNUgole Commands 90% of Search in the World, Shows Survey http://ur1.ca/axzi | Sep 01 22:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz the official jboss courses are *terrible*. i recommend them to no-one whatsoever anywhere. | Sep 01 22:48 | |
| Diablo-D3 | hahahha | Sep 01 22:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | david++ | Sep 01 22:49 |
| cubezzz | a couple of times I had to mmod usb-storage | Sep 01 22:49 |
| DaemonFC | that guy is kind of egotistical | Sep 01 22:49 |
| cubezzz | but I could always make it work again | Sep 01 22:49 |
| DaemonFC | but then, why point fingers? | Sep 01 22:49 |
| cubezzz | rmmod | Sep 01 22:49 |
| DaemonFC | "Wow...ten whole bucks off of a multi-hundred dollar piece of software. How Generous." | Sep 01 22:50 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Sep 01 22:50 |
| schestowitz | tessier: ping | Sep 01 22:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ODF Marks Another Win in Hungary http://twitter.com/rcweir/statuses/3668961755 | Sep 01 22:51 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sun Plugin Used to Bypass Microsoft's Broken 'Support' for ODF http://ur1.ca/axzq | Sep 01 22:51 | |
| *_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 22:54 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] insanely useful apache httpd 2.2 article http://bit.ly/10BXyD (HT @schestozwitz) | Sep 01 22:55 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz non-free web servers are jokes at best. i actually had to administer Netscape/iPlanet/SunONE once. *shudder* | Sep 01 22:56 | |
| DaemonFC | using Microsoft Office for ODF seems kind of pointless anyway | Sep 01 22:57 |
| DaemonFC | there's a number of freeware programs that support it natively | Sep 01 22:57 |
| cubezzz | the fact of the matter is a lot of hardware has bugs, and it's up to the software to work around it | Sep 01 22:58 |
| cubezzz | the chips guy's boss tells him "Ship it" and it's done | Sep 01 22:58 |
| _goblin | hi all | Sep 01 22:59 |
| MinceR | the point of ODF support for m$ office is that the poor sods who are used to it and can't/won't learn anything else can share their documents in a standard format | Sep 01 22:59 |
| MinceR | so that eventually people can stop caring about whether m$'s binary/obfuscated XML crap can be loaded or not | Sep 01 23:00 |
| _goblin | yep...Microsoft are grasping whatever they can to try to keep their packages relevant.....I think there was a time when Linux and FOSS's future was dependent on how well it co-operated with Microsoft packages. I think that time now is coming to an end, FOSS can stand on its own merits... | Sep 01 23:02 |
| _goblin | and certainly Linux can....I personally hope MS closes shop on all interoperability between their "standards" and open ones, it will speed up (IMO) the decline of a model thats way out of date and more of an addiction than a requirement nowadays...(IMO) | Sep 01 23:03 |
| _goblin | talking of the desktop for a minute, is Microsoft really mission critical anymore? I think its not been required for a long time, its just taken a while for some to break out of the brainwashing they have had for years.... | Sep 01 23:05 |
| MinceR | for someone specifically or in general? | Sep 01 23:06 |
| _goblin | I'd say for general, home, "average user" use. | Sep 01 23:07 |
| MinceR | i'd say it isn't | Sep 01 23:07 |
| _goblin | why so? | Sep 01 23:07 |
| MinceR | because the "average user" doesn't use that many apps | Sep 01 23:08 |
| MinceR | some of them even get away with using the crApple idiot box | Sep 01 23:08 |
| MinceR | most general apps are already covered | Sep 01 23:08 |
| _goblin | exactly. They need a platform a browser, an email client etc.......Linux obviously caters for this just like MS... | Sep 01 23:08 |
| _goblin | how many "average users" would notice if they ran FF or IE? | Sep 01 23:09 |
| _goblin | the point being, Microsoft technology (IMO) has been obsolete for years with FOSS alternatives, its just taking time for people to get their head around free. | Sep 01 23:10 |
| cubezzz | video guys use premiere, photo guys use photoshop, they are still using Microsoft to a large degree | Sep 01 23:10 |
| MinceR | they probably wouldn't notice | Sep 01 23:10 |
| MinceR | average users are neither video guys nor photo guys | Sep 01 23:10 |
| _goblin | cubezz: True, and I think theres a line between average users.... | Sep 01 23:10 |
| _goblin | just like gamers... | Sep 01 23:10 |
| cubezzz | right, I'm just pointing out what I've been seeing, general usage is different of course | Sep 01 23:11 |
| MinceR | i'm not sure if gamers are average users | Sep 01 23:11 |
| _goblin | agreed MinceR....I wouldnt think they are...hence the popularity of consoles. | Sep 01 23:11 |
| cubezzz | and they don't _have_ to use Adobe photoshop :) | Sep 01 23:11 |
| MinceR | indeed | Sep 01 23:11 |
| MinceR | nor do they have to use premiere (which is horribly crap, btw) | Sep 01 23:11 |
| _goblin | Gaming on the PC IMO will be soon dead, its support is reducing in the birth of consoles and piracy is crippling it. | Sep 01 23:12 |
| MinceR | when i had to use premiere at my internship, i eventually moved to doing the cutting with virtualdub and only doing the recoding (to flv -_-) with premiere | Sep 01 23:12 |
| _goblin | and also Photoshop isnt even MS anyway.... | Sep 01 23:13 |
| _goblin | brb - quick smoke break. | Sep 01 23:13 |
| cubezzz | no, but it implies using Windows | Sep 01 23:13 |
| tessier | schestowitz: pong | Sep 01 23:14 |
| tessier | What's up | Sep 01 23:14 |
| tessier | ? | Sep 01 23:14 |
| cubezzz | I've done some video work myself, nothing big, but I did use mencoder on Linux | Sep 01 23:14 |
| schestowitz | tessier: it's OK now | Sep 01 23:14 |
| schestowitz | I had to delete a browser cookie | Sep 01 23:14 |
| tessier | ok | Sep 01 23:15 |
| *tessier is playing with xmonad | Sep 01 23:15 | |
| schestowitz | [Some CMS admin issue] | Sep 01 23:15 |
| tessier | It's pretty cool. I think I may stick with it. | Sep 01 23:15 |
| schestowitz | Did you see multitouch/ | Sep 01 23:15 |
| schestowitz | ? | Sep 01 23:15 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/08/30/linux-multi-touch-demo/ | Sep 01 23:16 |
| *amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-27-85.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 01 23:16 | |
| _goblin | Hi Roy! | Sep 01 23:18 |
| _goblin | had a visit from Mr De Icazza on my blog whilst I was away... | Sep 01 23:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | _goblin: lol, he hit mine earlier | Sep 01 23:18 |
| DaemonFC | maybe he uses Radian6 | Sep 01 23:19 |
| DaemonFC | or Visible Technologies | Sep 01 23:19 |
| _goblin | Ive seen those incomming links on my site befoe. | Sep 01 23:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | icaza posted a comment on my blog, he didnt trackback it | Sep 01 23:21 |
| _goblin | To be fair I expected him to be a little aggressive what with my comparison of MONO and its similarity to the song by Henry Rollins "Liar" | Sep 01 23:22 |
| _goblin | the lyrics just fit the MONO situation so well (IMO) | Sep 01 23:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | hes not aggressive, hes just a twit | Sep 01 23:22 |
| _goblin | still got my £50 amazon voucher....thinking of buying "Chariots of the Gods" | Sep 01 23:26 |
| _goblin | Internet Explorer posts largest loss since '08; Firefox, Chrome, Safari gain : http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=23616 | Sep 01 23:35 |
| _goblin | I'm sure its already been talked about. | Sep 01 23:35 |
| DaemonFC | I wonder why Opera never gets noticed | Sep 01 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | it does more and uses fewer resources | Sep 01 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm | Sep 01 23:40 |
| _goblin | I've never got on with that....don't know why....I champion Chromium at the moment.... | Sep 01 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | according to that post on ZDNet, Opera is now at 2.1% | Sep 01 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | so they have posted a gain | Sep 01 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | maybe due to a Streisand Effect of Paul Thurrott and friends telling people to boycott it? | Sep 01 23:41 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) | Sep 01 23:41 | |
| _goblin | hasn't worked for Novell though has it? | Sep 01 23:41 |
| DaemonFC | The way I've seen it, Novell and red Hat are teh only ones making any real money selling Linux support | Sep 01 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Hi, _goblin | Sep 01 23:42 |
| DaemonFC | the other 20% or so of the revenue is split between the also-rans | Sep 01 23:42 |
| _goblin | hi Roy! | Sep 01 23:42 |
| DaemonFC | *the | Sep 01 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Sorry 'bout the delay/lag | Sep 01 23:42 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/09/01/opera-10-kde-4-3-1/ | Sep 01 23:43 |
| _goblin | schestowitz: Im back and in one piece! | Sep 01 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu is still a money loser | Sep 01 23:43 |
| schestowitz | Been watching 4 episodes of Cosmos this week so far. Really good programme. | Sep 01 23:43 |
| _goblin | saw a good documentary "Ancient astronaughts" | Sep 01 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | Multimillion dollar ad campaigns and IE 8 are not bucking the trend of users abandoning Internet Explorer | Sep 01 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | well, what else do they have in their bag of tricks? | Sep 01 23:44 |
| DaemonFC | they already tried slandering Firefox and Opera | Sep 01 23:44 |
| _goblin | maybe they'll put Balmer back on like he did when he was selling Windows. | Sep 01 23:44 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not really a huge Mozilla fan but even Firefox is a huge step up from Internet Explorer | Sep 01 23:45 |
| _goblin | I am nearly ready to remove FF in favor of Chromium....its very solid now... | Sep 01 23:45 |
| DaemonFC | Opera 10 is good | Sep 01 23:45 |
| DaemonFC | not quite what I was expecting, but good | Sep 01 23:45 |
| cubezzz | when did IE become part of the basic windows install? | Sep 01 23:46 |
| DaemonFC | There are a number of features in their weekly builds that are not in Opera 10 because not all the bugs are worked out | Sep 01 23:46 |
| _goblin | nah Im happy as I am...Ive been following the builds of Chromium | Sep 01 23:46 |
| DaemonFC | cubezzz: Windows 98 on retail channel | Sep 01 23:46 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 95 OSR 2.5 for OEM channel | Sep 01 23:46 |
| DaemonFC | IE 3 was in Windows 95 OSR 2.1, but it wasn't integrated and you could edit the setup files to not install it, or download the standalone installer and install that, which would create an uninstaller | Sep 01 23:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : yes, and Apache keeps gaining at the expense of the rest (Google has its 'version' also) | Sep 01 23:47 | |
| DaemonFC | IE 3 was also available in a retail boxed set with extra plugins :) | Sep 01 23:47 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: stop citing the lie stats | Sep 01 23:48 |
| DaemonFC | IE 1 was in Plus! For Windows 95 | Sep 01 23:48 |
| schestowitz | Net Applications is US stats, bias further towards certain clients | Sep 01 23:48 |
| schestowitz | Opera is their client too | Sep 01 23:48 |
| MinceR | there was an IE 1? :) | Sep 01 23:48 |
| cubezzz | EU is talking no IE in windows 7 | Sep 01 23:48 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, it was NCSA Mosaic, renamed, and with a Windows logo for the "throbber" | Sep 01 23:48 |
| DaemonFC | IE 2 was the first version with any changes from NCSA Mosaic | Sep 01 23:49 |
| DaemonFC | tables and cookies support I believe | Sep 01 23:49 |
| DaemonFC | IE 3 has some CSS, JScript, and ActiveX | Sep 01 23:49 |
| DaemonFC | IE 4 was the first version where Trident was used, Trident is a COM object you can embed into your own applications | Sep 01 23:50 |
| DaemonFC | IE 5.5 was the last version to support Windows 95, IE 6 SP1 was the last to support Windows 98 and Windows 2000, IE 6 SP2, 7, and 8 all run on XP, but you need SP2 | Sep 01 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | Mozilla browsers don't support Windows 9x/Me anymore as of version 3 | Sep 01 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | Opera 10 still runs | Sep 01 23:52 |
| *schestowitz funbles to find the mute button on teh DaemonFC | Sep 01 23:52 | |
| schestowitz | *fumbles | Sep 01 23:52 |
| cubezzz | Microsoft really screwed Spyglass :-0 | Sep 01 23:53 |
| DaemonFC | actually, I think Opera is the only browser still being developed that will install and run on Windows 9x, though you could probably remove Cairo from Firefox and go back to using GDI+ and it would work | Sep 01 23:53 |
| DaemonFC | a fairly invasive patch though and you'd be on your own with it | Sep 01 23:53 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: it's the one with "kickban" written on it | Sep 01 23:54 |
| MinceR | (well, there's also +b %... (+q?) ) | Sep 01 23:54 |
| cubezzz | btw I'm looking for lynx for Zaurus SL-5500 if anyone knows :) | Sep 01 23:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "In the last 12 months, IE has lost 8.6 points of browser share." - http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=23616 #microsoft #ie #windows | Sep 01 23:54 | |
| MinceR | can't you just compile it? | Sep 01 23:55 |
| DaemonFC | Cairo is one of the reasons Firefox uses so much more RAM on Windows than Firefox 2 did anyway, it bypasses a native graphics API for a foreign one | Sep 01 23:55 |
| cubezzz | MinceR, I'll try it | Sep 01 23:55 |
| DaemonFC | basically Firefox is what you get when you design something to be as portable as possible without focusing any work on efficiency or platform optimization | Sep 01 23:55 |
| DaemonFC | XUL was the first offense | Sep 01 23:56 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: you link to .NET App[le]s? | Sep 01 23:56 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 01 23:56 | |
| DaemonFC | cubezzz: They abandoned that, there wil lbe a browser ballot now | Sep 01 23:56 |
| schestowitz | XUL is great | Sep 01 23:57 |
| DaemonFC | it'll be like a screen that loads something like browserballot.eu or something ridiculous like that | Sep 01 23:57 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: you're trolling | Sep 01 23:57 |
| schestowitz | Be warned | Sep 01 23:57 |
| DaemonFC | XUL is a $50,000 toilet seat | Sep 01 23:57 |
| DaemonFC | but it's portable | Sep 01 23:57 |
| DaemonFC | the only reason nobody notices how much of a drag it is anymore is because we're all using systems that are fast enough to cope with it now | Sep 01 23:58 |
| DaemonFC | go back and try to use it on a system from 6-8 years ago | Sep 01 23:58 |
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| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: do me a favor for one day | Sep 01 23:59 |
| schestowitz | Try that with Vid-Duh! | Sep 01 23:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | stop talking | Sep 01 23:59 |
| DaemonFC | buying a faster system to run Firefox is like strapping a JATO rocket to a brick | Sep 01 23:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | dude, no | Sep 01 23:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | its like strapping a JATO rocket to a bike | Sep 01 23:59 |
| schestowitz | Windows Visduh on a 1ghz cpu | Sep 01 23:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | it looks really fucking cool, but you dont want to ride it | Sep 01 23:59 |
| trmanco | an aluminum chassis bike | Sep 01 23:59 |
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