IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 10th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard sorry to jump in on your conversation but I have to say Ive been VERY impressed with Chromium. Completely agree.Sep 10 00:00
schestowitz_goblin: maybe other sitesSep 10 00:00
schestowitzLike erangerSep 10 00:00
_goblinah.Sep 10 00:00
schestowitz*berSep 10 00:00
schestowitzLinux is made out of people from different backgroundsSep 10 00:01
schestowitzRMS is from biology for instanceSep 10 00:01
schestowitzPJ a paralegalSep 10 00:01
zlgRMS is physics ?Sep 10 00:01
schestowitzDeveloper of Wolvix a painterSep 10 00:01
schestowitzMozilla's CEO (former) an artistic type tooSep 10 00:01
schestowitzzlg: depends I thinkSep 10 00:01
schestowitzHe started a PhDSep 10 00:01
schestowitzI could be wrongSep 10 00:02
schestowitzHe said people said he'd be designated for biologySep 10 00:02
schestowitzHe got 1600 in his SATsSep 10 00:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Writer Explains What Made Him Move to GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/DOU7ESep 10 00:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] LugRadio Live 2009 Carved in Stone http://ping.fm/GvGPySep 10 00:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Asterisk and Linux Married for Free PBX Solutions http://ping.fm/e5Tcd http://ping.fm/qrjuWSep 10 00:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux 2.6.32 to do 3-D with #Radeon #Drivers http://ping.fm/6ahj7Sep 10 00:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #VIA Plays Ball with #Linux , Joins the #Kernel Foundation [sic] http://ping.fm/0KVYvSep 10 00:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] For all you Windows users -> http://tinyurl.com/ase1j9 || Have fun :) !windows #windows #funSep 10 00:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of the #Lin-X #GNU #Linux #Distribution http://ping.fm/fKwYeSep 10 00:19
schestowitztrmanco: aaaaaaaaaahh! My eyes !!Sep 10 00:20
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trmancoschestowitz: you got rick rolledSep 10 00:21
trmancofirefox can stop the scriptSep 10 00:21
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trmancokeep on clicking ok ok ok okSep 10 00:21
trmancoit will ask you if you want to stopSep 10 00:21
trmancoat some point :|Sep 10 00:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment Has Summit http://ping.fm/CmhxG #kde !kdeSep 10 00:22
_goblinlol...chromium put a stop to that pesky Rick Astley no probs...Sep 10 00:26
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Debian Adopts #Upstart and #Dell Adopts Debian Derivative for #Desktop PCs http://ping.fm/F2LmT http://ping.fm/B1T6zSep 10 00:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Energy -Efficient #Boards Targets #Linux http://ping.fm/gDqTuSep 10 00:30
schestowitztrmanco: I opened it in KonqSep 10 00:30
schestowitzNo popupsSep 10 00:30
trmancomehSep 10 00:31
schestowitzYEah, seriouslySep 10 00:31
schestowitzIt's my default kde browserSep 10 00:31
trmancoit's really a popupSep 10 00:31
trmancoit's an altert boxSep 10 00:31
trmancoalert*Sep 10 00:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia Elaborates on #Linux #Phones Market Strategy http://ping.fm/NyhQcSep 10 00:35
_Hicham_at last, my first Window with Gtk::Builder classSep 10 00:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LiMo #Foundation Grows Bigger http://ping.fm/pFZQm #linuxSep 10 00:37
schestowitzWindows or window?Sep 10 00:37
_Hicham_a windowSep 10 00:38
_Hicham_Anjuta is really a great IDESep 10 00:40
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_Hicham_thanks to Naba KumarSep 10 00:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Grows up in #Mobiles Under #Android Identity http://ping.fm/NBNcF http://ping.fm/ylRlbSep 10 00:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Dell #Inspiron with #GNU #Linux #Reviewed http://ping.fm/bJaJpSep 10 00:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Support I'm Linux, add a #twibbon to your avatar now! - http://twibbon.com/join/Im-Linux-2Sep 10 00:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at #Jolicloud (GNU/Linux) #Sub-notebooks http://ping.fm/tc6UYSep 10 00:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Expands a Business Focus for #Postbox http://ping.fm/IBYMISep 10 00:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NeelieKroes Proves That #FreeSoftware Made it Big http://ping.fm/s3CzPSep 10 00:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Software Project Goes Free (in in Freedom) http://ping.fm/AS5X3Sep 10 00:52
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Drupal (GPL) Powers SUN a Web Site http://ping.fm/1rjo5Sep 10 00:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Open Dinosaur Project Follows the Free Software Phenomenon http://ping.fm/mTBqpSep 10 01:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Brazilian #Government Advocates #FreeSoftware for Social Benefits http://ping.fm/9jGzISep 10 01:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Message Extended in #Freedomware http://ping.fm/CtfCnSep 10 01:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google Finally Gives #Ogg a Boost http://ping.fm/UAN68Sep 10 01:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #Data Collection is Dangerously #Evil http://ping.fm/f4MgL http://ping.fm/R7LPLSep 10 01:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft 's "Letters from Dead People" #Shill ( #CAGW ) is Still #Shilling for Cash/Companies http://ping.fm/cLyJLSep 10 01:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Web Censorship and Surveillance Promotes by China, Australia, Scientology Cult http://ping.fm/UID46 http://ping.fm/2WlmHSep 10 01:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Proprietary Software for #Filtering Uses for #Spying on Kids http://ping.fm/ncQaUSep 10 01:26
_goblinAnyone ever read the "works" of technogran...?Sep 10 01:26
_goblinconsidering she admits to being elderly and "trying to keep up"...she's very current and on the ball in terms of latest technologies...Sep 10 01:27
_goblinand of course her main conversations appear to be with the usual MS faithful suspects......mmm...wouldn't be silly enough to challenge her, however it would be interesting if a few emails were sent to the mainstream press about her....if she was real then its some great publicity for "silver surfing" and if she's not....the mainstream press could find that out too...Sep 10 01:30
_goblinyep, I think I will champion her works to the mainstream media....I'm sure one of them would run a feature.......Sep 10 01:31
_goblinIf she is not fake...good for her.Sep 10 01:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MAFIAA Raided by Police at Order of an Artist http://ping.fm/5XtVkSep 10 01:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Digs Its Own #Grave http://ping.fm/o8JpdSep 10 01:36
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Lies in Reports About #Linux and Gets Away with It http://ping.fm/ltqFWSep 10 01:39
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple Snubs #GNU #Linux http://ping.fm/eDg9SSep 10 01:43
schestowitztechnogran?Sep 10 01:45
_goblinyep.....Sep 10 01:45
schestowitzNever heard of itSep 10 01:45
schestowitzIs it on the repos?Sep 10 01:45
schestowitz:-"Sep 10 01:45
_goblinan alleged oap who is VERY up on tech...Sep 10 01:45
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_goblinhttp://twitter.com/technogranmaSep 10 01:47
_goblinI really hope she is real....despite being a Windows user its refreshing to see IT appealing to all groups....Sep 10 01:48
_goblinthats why I think the mainstream press should be made aware of her skill level.....Sep 10 01:49
_goblinI'm sure theres one or two news agencies who would be willing to champion what she has achieved.Sep 10 01:49
_goblinIn a world that stereotypes IT users, she brings a refreshing change......Sep 10 01:50
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] just watched "Trouble the Water" - amazing, very touching. It's a must see movie. http://tinyurl.com/co5wesSep 10 01:53
schestowitz_goblin: sounds like wallclimberSep 10 01:53
_goblinwallclimber?Sep 10 01:55
schestowitzShe's the mother of BNSep 10 02:00
_goblin? I would hope not, she a Windows advocate!!! ;)Sep 10 02:01
wallclimberoh no...technogran - a windows grandma...Sep 10 02:03
twitterick on techongranma ->  @adacosta Congratulations on achieving becoming a Master Andre!Sep 10 02:03
wallclimbermaybe it's time for me to start blogging too  :)Sep 10 02:03
twitterMaster D'Costa!  barfSep 10 02:04
wallclimbershe looks older than me though...she uses windows, maybe she's edging towards senilitySep 10 02:05
wallclimber(i should be nice...sorry)Sep 10 02:05
_Hicham_hi twitterSep 10 02:06
wallclimberlol, i just saw what you wrote, roy...the mother of BN???  you're a hootSep 10 02:06
_goblintwitter: isnt it strange that "all roads lead to Andre"Sep 10 02:07
_goblinhe's proudly displaying the latest gift he's been given....Sep 10 02:08
_goblinsome sort of plastic award....not much for all the hours he puts in.Sep 10 02:08
_goblinI actually do feel sorry for him....he truly has swallowed all pride to promote MS products.....poor lad...the power of freebies.....Sep 10 02:09
_goblinI stopped getting annoyed with him (and started to feel sorry for him) after he made a Twitter post along the lines of "Its a shame Michael Jackson never lived to see Windows 7"Sep 10 02:10
_goblinthat to me was a sign of how desperate he was.....Sep 10 02:11
twitterWicked!Sep 10 02:14
twitterBad!Sep 10 02:14
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wallclimberok, i've been clicking around the technogran stuff and every page reads like a Microsoft marketing script. bleh (i may start granny wars)Sep 10 02:21
wallclimber:)Sep 10 02:21
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_Hicham_twitter the bad boySep 10 02:24
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twitterM$ Minister of Disinformation http://bayimg.com/oADcdaaCnSep 10 02:57
Willschestowitz: You might find this link interesting:Sep 10 02:57
Willhttp://infoworld.com/windows-pulseSep 10 02:57
Willschestowitz: it's Windows-only data, but look at the OpenOffice usage there.Sep 10 02:58
twitterflatline?Sep 10 02:58
twittercode blue?Sep 10 02:58
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Willschestowitz:  From the article, the data is updated daily from nearly 20,000 monitored PCsSep 10 02:59
twitterIs there a Pee Cee with Windows that is not monitored?Sep 10 03:00
Willtwitter: good pointSep 10 03:00
twitterWindows popcorn, opt out today, be put back in tomorrow.Sep 10 03:01
Willbut out of those PCs,  between 10-15% are using OO.orgSep 10 03:01
twitterAvailable only for Vista, yet 65% of system run XP.  Steve Balmer throws chair again.Sep 10 03:02
twitterM$ Word, used by more sheep than any other Office program.Sep 10 03:03
Willtwitter:  There were the early adopters, but people started hearing and experiencing the truth about Vista, most everyone else did everything they could to avoid replacing their PCs.Sep 10 03:04
schestowitzWill: it's MS-orientedSep 10 03:04
twitterI doubt any of these graphs reflect reality.  See above link.  http://bayimg.com/oADcdaaCnSep 10 03:04
twitterM$ studies say, "We've already won, give up."Sep 10 03:05
twitterThey are not worth reading.Sep 10 03:05
schestowitzWill: says nothing about the dataSep 10 03:05
Willtwitter and schestowitz:  I don't expect them to reflect reality.  But I do expect them to give a lower bound.  Probably much lowerSep 10 03:05
schestowitzPeople like graphsSep 10 03:06
schestowitzThey don't like to ask questionaSep 10 03:06
schestowitzThat's why utter BS like .NET Appz is taken seriously by someSep 10 03:06
Willtwitter:  the only value I find in MS-studies is when they occasionally raise the lower bound, like with that Ballmer market share slide.  It's very hard for the shills to refute information that comes from their master.Sep 10 03:09
Willschestowitz:  Helios is planning a radio add for Linux soon.Sep 10 03:10
schestowitzCpol.Sep 10 03:10
schestowitzCool.Sep 10 03:10
schestowitzGot this today:Sep 10 03:11
schestowitz"So imagine what that means; if the M$ monopoly will start to crumble more rapidly once GNU-Linux reaches 20% market share, that is a much more achievable goal than, say, 51%.  In other words, it is encouraging for our community to think that we could make significant headway if we reach 20%. "Sep 10 03:11
schestowitz"There is good reason to believe that GNU-Linux already has 10% market share world-wide, and if the Brazilian and Russian school deals come through, that could be an even more significant leg up."Sep 10 03:11
schestowitzIt's places like Brazil where Linux adoption is HUGESep 10 03:11
Willschestowitz:  Of course.  No one but the softies ever said that Linux had to take 90% market share to be successful or implicitly regarded as an equal.  They say that both because that sets an impossible bar for Linux and because that is their only concept of success.  But the MS dam isn't built on the best foundation, not after Vista anyway.  Just a hole here and chink there, and eventually the water will do the rest.Sep 10 03:15
WillOn the matter of application support:  By some estimates, Linux already meets or exceeds OSX market share, yet you still find places here and there that proudly claim support for OSX and shun Linux.Sep 10 03:17
WillSo what is the difference?  Is it really just the OSX marketing machine?  Or something more?Sep 10 03:18
Willschestowitz:  Oh, that brings to mind this: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/09/09/2216255/TomTom-Anounces-an-Open-Source-GPS-Technology?art_pos=2Sep 10 03:18
twitterWhat M$ realizes is that once enough people are familiar with free software, that Windows will quickly and inevitably vanish.Sep 10 03:19
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twitterI don't like this attitude.  It is condescending and dishonest ->  We also need to teach new users a method which works best for them instead of forcing a method which works best for us.Sep 10 03:20
twitterWe can only teach people what works best for ourselves, or people we know.  This is not "forcing"Sep 10 03:20
schestowitzI knew about TomTomSep 10 03:21
schestowitzSince 2 days agoSep 10 03:21
schestowitzAbout OS X, they don't count underdeveloped nationsSep 10 03:21
schestowitzJust the 'rich kids'Sep 10 03:22
schestowitzIt's about revenue to them, not market share]Sep 10 03:22
twitterWhat are people supposed to teach, things that suck?  Might as well say, "I use things that work really well.  XP would be good for you."Sep 10 03:22
schestowitzNumber of $$, not # of liberated souldSep 10 03:22
schestowitz*SouldSep 10 03:22
schestowitzanyway, gnSep 10 03:22
Willtwitter:  I'm not sure what the context of that was, but how can you teach a new user "what works best for them"?  If they are new, they don't know what works best for them yet.  You can just teach them what you know.Sep 10 03:22
WillgnSep 10 03:22
twitterRight.  It's a wrong headed quote from BN front page about not "forcing" command line use.Sep 10 03:23
WillIf the new user likes the way you taught them, they'll follow it.  If not, they might start with your way and find their own way in time.Sep 10 03:23
Willeh. Command line is good to know, awesome for some things, and very useful for remote access.  With "man" around, it really isn't that scary once you learn the basics.Sep 10 03:25
WillI don't necessarily think a user should be forced to use the command line if all they do is basic tasksSep 10 03:25
Willbut it wouldn't hurt them to learn it eventually if they want to improve their computer skills.Sep 10 03:25
Willbut then people seem to be allergic to learning new things these days.Sep 10 03:26
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Willtwitter: it's like this there's at least two types of computer users.  Users that just want to run apps.  They might write masterful documents or books, perform financial wizardry with spreadsheets, design complicated blueprints, create masterpieces with photo, image, or music software, etc.  But all they need to know about a computer to do their job is how to click an icon and go to work with the individual programs.Sep 10 03:32
cubezzzgrunt and pointSep 10 03:33
WillThen you have another type that really wants to get into the guts of the computer.  They want to program.  They want to understand how it works on a software and/or hardware level.  The computer is their work.Sep 10 03:33
cubezzzno conceptual learningSep 10 03:33
WillLinux is the best thing out there for the second typeSep 10 03:34
WillAnd they should learn command line.  They will want to.Sep 10 03:34
cubezzzthat's a very broad generalization, but probably true enoughSep 10 03:34
cubezzzyou may as well say programmer/non-programmerSep 10 03:34
cubezzzor programmer/userSep 10 03:34
Willcubezzz:  very broad, and some people will be a mix of both statesSep 10 03:34
cubezzzbut youSep 10 03:35
WillI'm just going for the general conceptSep 10 03:35
cubezzzbut you're implying that users can't use any non-gui programsSep 10 03:35
Willcubezzz:  Not that they can't.  Just that using non-gui programs might not really be part of/central to their main job.Sep 10 03:36
WillThey might not have the time or inclination to learn the non-gui stuff.Sep 10 03:36
cubezzzWill, it wasn't that long ago that everything was done on a command line basisSep 10 03:37
cubezzzbut things have changed a lotSep 10 03:37
Willcubezzz: very true.  But people seem to have forgotten that.  And many aren't old enough to remember.Sep 10 03:37
cubezzzit would benefit anyone to learn a little abstraction, I find I'm using the gui less and lessSep 10 03:38
cubezzzbut then you're getting into the programmer domain more... script languages and the likeSep 10 03:39
WillI'm probably somewhere around an intermediate Linux user, but I try to think about the perspective of a new user, coming from a Windows/OSX background.  I'm trying not to forget what it was like inside the Matrix.Sep 10 03:39
WillI have faith that new users will learn what they want at their own pace if they stick with Linux.  I just want to make sure they aren't scared away by unfamiliarity at first.Sep 10 03:40
cubezzzit's the _real_ new users you want to get on LinuxSep 10 03:41
cubezzzas in _no_ computer experience at allSep 10 03:41
cubezzzthen there's no windows stuff to unlearnSep 10 03:41
WillThose I'm less worried about.  No preconcieved notions.  Likely little FUD floating around in their heads.Sep 10 03:41
WillThey'll take to Linux just fine.Sep 10 03:42
WillAnd have.Sep 10 03:42
cubezzzI'll give you an example... my Dad, very little computer knowledgeSep 10 03:43
cubezzzhe uses windows, and he uses LinuxSep 10 03:43
cubezzzall he does is use ebay and check emailSep 10 03:43
cubezzzit didn't make much different to him either waySep 10 03:43
Willcubezzz:  And when MS people say that Linux is too hard to learn, I like pulling up stories of kids younger than 5 years old using it with no problems.Sep 10 03:43
Willcubezz: my parents were the same way.  One still can't tell the difference between Windows and Linux other than the wallpaper, though they do appreciate no longer having to spend hours dealing with malware.Sep 10 03:44
cubezzzyeah, it's not really true assuming someone sets it up firstSep 10 03:45
WillIf Windows was secure, relatively lightweight, and stable, there would never have been a need for me to set it up for them.Sep 10 03:47
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cubezzzit's what the schools are doing that worry me the mostSep 10 03:53
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Willcubezz:  The average Windows user wouldn't be able to use Windows if it didn't come pre-setup for them.Sep 10 03:56
_Hicham_Will : trueSep 10 03:56
WillNext time you see a Windows user being told that they need to reimage the drive because it is throughly contaminated with malware, watch for the deer-in-the-headlights look in their eyes.Sep 10 03:57
cubezzzok, I had a somewhat radical idea about thatSep 10 03:58
cubezzzput a small operating system in the biosSep 10 03:59
WillThere's nothing innately more easier/more intuitive about Windows.Sep 10 03:59
cubezzzmake it read-onlySep 10 03:59
cubezzzthen if your box gets borked it can reboot right from the biosSep 10 03:59
cubezzzat least then people could do some simple things like use the internet or check emailSep 10 04:00
_Hicham_cubezzz : that is splashtop ideaSep 10 04:02
cubezzzor corebootSep 10 04:03
WillDell did that in some of their notebooks.  Called it "Latitude ON" I think.Sep 10 04:04
WillIt was also a way to dodge Vista's long startup times when you just wanted to get on for 5 mintues to do internet/email.Sep 10 04:05
cubezzzlet me say that these AC Adapters really really suckSep 10 04:06
cubezzzI have about 30 of these thingsSep 10 04:06
WillDell"s adapters?Sep 10 04:06
cubezzzno, AC Adapters in general, e.g. power supplies for router, modems, etcSep 10 04:07
cubezzzthis tiny thing is supposed to supply 2 ampsSep 10 04:08
cubezzzI'm on my 3rd one for this dlink routerSep 10 04:08
cubezzzwell, it has to run 24/7 and it's under-engineeredSep 10 04:15
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] http://bit.ly/4kd8X5 The correct geek mgmt urlSep 10 05:02
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tessierschestowitz: How's the caching working out?Sep 10 05:52
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schestowitztessier: I can try to improve itSep 10 09:11
schestowitzLt me try smethingSep 10 09:15
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tessierschestowitz: Hard to know if changes have any effect at all if we cannot measure cache hit rate or some other metric.Sep 10 09:42
schestowitzThere's something I haven't enable, so I'm working on it right nowSep 10 09:43
schestowitzIt might improve things furtherSep 10 09:43
tessierWhere are the mysql queries supposedly being cached? Does it have a dir for it or something?Sep 10 09:44
tessierI see only the page cache.Sep 10 09:44
schestowitzOK, change appliedSep 10 09:47
schestowitzI changed .htaccessSep 10 09:47
schestowitzTo support supercache properlySep 10 09:47
schestowitzSupercahce caches about 600 pages at the momentSep 10 09:47
schestowitzWith expiry time of about 10 hoursSep 10 09:47
schestowitzDB-cache runs tooSep 10 09:47
schestowitztessier: yes, I wondered where DB cache is stored tooSep 10 09:48
schestowitzI don't knowSep 10 09:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Musicians hit out at piracy plans - So much for "we speak for the poor artists" http://tinyurl.com/mutu8xSep 10 09:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] just broke my double-sized coffee mug. how annoying.Sep 10 09:49
schestowitzI can add the php code for query stats to wordpress (manually)Sep 10 09:49
schestowitzWhat was that PHP command again?Sep 10 09:49
schestowitzfish:// is working sporadically for me now. Strange behaviour.Sep 10 09:59
schestowitzOh, <? loadstats(); ?>, I see.Sep 10 10:00
schestowitz<!-- Generated in 2.289 seconds. Made 123 queries to database and 28 cached queries. Memory used - 25.46MB -->Sep 10 10:02
schestowitz<!-- Cached by DB Cache -->Sep 10 10:02
schestowitzThat's for http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/12/microsoft-sneaks-out/Sep 10 10:02
schestowitzThis page was not cached by supercache afaikSep 10 10:03
schestowitzWHich means it needed to be generated, not just deliveredSep 10 10:03
tessierIf you hit that same page again does it come up much faster?Sep 10 10:05
schestowitzLet me trySep 10 10:05
schestowitzI wonder if db-cache somehow overrides the latterSep 10 10:05
schestowitzIt seems to redo the same thingSep 10 10:06
schestowitzBUT....Sep 10 10:06
schestowitzI wonder if the query stats get cached tooSep 10 10:06
schestowitzLet's see if the timestamp changesSep 10 10:06
schestowitzAhh...Sep 10 10:07
schestowitzIt just caches query statsSep 10 10:07
schestowitzSo what you see in cached pages probably required a look at the timestamp at the bottomSep 10 10:07
tessier<!-- Generated in 2.101 seconds. Made 121 queries to database and 30 cached queries. Memory used - 25.38MB -->Sep 10 10:07
schestowitzSee timestamp though.Sep 10 10:08
schestowitzIt doesn't change if you refreshSep 10 10:08
tessierahSep 10 10:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Enjoying a coffee by the Thames. Seen more brompton bikes than ever.Sep 10 10:08
schestowitzSO this basically shows stats for the time when it was generated dynamically, then cachedSep 10 10:08
schestowitzI also improved something in super-cacheSep 10 10:08
schestowitzI'm bad at vi editingSep 10 10:08
schestowitzI tried finding an X-enabled editor on the serverSep 10 10:09
schestowitzSince I can't get fish:// to work reliablySep 10 10:09
tessieremacs is on there although I don't usually compile it with XSep 10 10:09
schestowitzYeah, I saw itSep 10 10:09
schestowitzText modeSep 10 10:09
schestowitzed alsoSep 10 10:09
schestowitzI did apropos editSep 10 10:09
schestowitzCache ContentsSep 10 10:10
schestowitzWP-CacheSep 10 10:10
schestowitz    * 236 Cached PagesSep 10 10:10
schestowitz    * 31 Expired PagesSep 10 10:10
schestowitzWP-Super-CacheSep 10 10:10
schestowitz    * 577 Cached PagesSep 10 10:10
schestowitz    * 69 Expired PagesSep 10 10:11
schestowitzGarbage CollectionSep 10 10:11
schestowitzLast: 2009-09-09 20:14:12Sep 10 10:11
schestowitzNext: 2009-09-09 20:24:12Sep 10 10:11
schestowitzload average: 0.61, 0.66, 0.67Sep 10 10:14
schestowitzI wonder if this apparent improvement (if any, I can't see the DB load) is a long-term thingSep 10 10:15
schestowitzHave DB queries/sec improved since we first began caching differently?Sep 10 10:15
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tessierNot sure how to measure db queries/sec.Sep 10 10:30
tessierAwesome...munin is still graphing boycottnovell.comSep 10 10:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Just recorded a new HPR, pity I have to use RecordMyDesktop and strip the audio first. Damn Audacity!!Sep 10 10:31
tessierAnd cpu usage has not gone down at all. So the cache is so far ineffective.Sep 10 10:31
schestowitztessier: when I had the admin front end for mysql it measured uiptime and query volumeSep 10 10:32
schestowitzWas it like this for months (the load)?Sep 10 10:32
schestowitzI haven't added any plugin that might be slowing it downSep 10 10:33
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tessierIt has been like this all along. Not a big deal but it would be nice to make pageloads faster and reduce susceptibility to DoSSep 10 10:36
*tessier goes to bedSep 10 10:36
schestowitzWhen I was with cpanel I could see query volumeSep 10 10:36
tessiernight allSep 10 10:36
schestowitzIn March we had like 300q/secSep 10 10:36
schestowitzThen I added cacheSep 10 10:36
schestowitzTook it down to about 75Sep 10 10:37
schestowitzIt was quadc oreSep 10 10:37
schestowitz*coreSep 10 10:37
schestowitzSo it used to be a lot worseSep 10 10:37
schestowitzNigh, tessierSep 10 10:37
schestowitz*nightSep 10 10:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Former/Existing #Microsoft #FrontGroup ( #CAGW ) Still Paid by Companies to Derail RivalsSep 10 10:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Anti- #RedHat Whitepapers from #Novell, More # Mono / .NET Convergence http://bit.ly/19WwWvSep 10 11:23
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schestowitztessier: this page takes ages to load < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/22/microsoft-taskforce-vs-walmart-linux/ > and I can think of another that caused a similar issue. I have no idea what's unique about them.Sep 10 11:30
schestowitzThis might explain the slowness in general.Sep 10 11:31
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trmancoschestowitz: that page loads fastSep 10 11:50
trmancoor it load at a reasonable rateSep 10 11:50
trmancoloads*Sep 10 11:50
trmanco<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 7.961 seconds -->Sep 10 11:51
trmancoit didn't take 7 secondsSep 10 11:51
trmanco8*Sep 10 11:51
oiaohmI really wish we could split the comments away from the artical schestowitzSep 10 11:52
oiaohmI suspect the speed problem is the comments schestowitzSep 10 11:53
oiaohmParticularly long winded comments that have to be checked against db.Sep 10 11:54
schestowitztrmanco: cause it's cached nowSep 10 11:55
schestowitzIt gave me 70 secondsSep 10 11:55
trmancoit can be the comment or that huge pasted textSep 10 11:56
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, comments may be itSep 10 11:56
schestowitzBased on the JOINs tessier showedSep 10 11:56
trmancocheck  different one that big like that with no commentsSep 10 11:56
trmancoaSep 10 11:56
oiaohmIn one way have a set up to drop displaying comments and adding comments in case of high load would help to protect server better.Sep 10 12:01
oiaohmHad a fun one today.  HP laptop.  Not working web cam and a lot of other bits.  Turned on virtualisation support in bios by by problem.  How does disabling virutalisation support in bios end up with no web cam no idea.Sep 10 12:09
oiaohmBut it does.Sep 10 12:10
trmancostrangeSep 10 12:10
oiaohmwebcam has USB id numbers when virtualisation is enabed.Sep 10 12:10
oiaohmWhen not it has 0000:0000 as id.Sep 10 12:10
oiaohmYep nasty firmware fault in there somewhere.Sep 10 12:10
schestowitzSOme Web cams are poorly supportedSep 10 12:11
oiaohmThe thing works.Sep 10 12:11
oiaohmIt a inbuilt hp webcam into laptop.Sep 10 12:11
oiaohmWith a hp bios causing the screw up.Sep 10 12:11
oiaohmRemember 0000:0000 id is only ment to come from device 1 on a usb bus when there are no more devices to find.Sep 10 12:12
oiaohmNot like device 16 as the webcam was either.Sep 10 12:12
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oiaohmIt the first time I have seen disabling virtualisation as harmful.Sep 10 12:14
oiaohmI forget the say the best bit.  The virtualisation disable only corrects when you remove the battery a reboot does not do it.Sep 10 12:16
trmancowowSep 10 12:19
ThistleWebif webcams are badly supported, wouldn't that be a selling point for parents wanting to ensure their kids ain't doing strip shows for their boyfriends etc?Sep 10 12:20
ThistleWebwell, from the PC at leastSep 10 12:21
oiaohmNothing stoping them pluging in another web cam.Sep 10 12:23
oiaohmIt was only the one embed in the device not working ThistleWebSep 10 12:24
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ThistleWebother than the other webcam not being well supported eitherSep 10 12:24
ThistleWebkSep 10 12:24
trmancooopsSep 10 12:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] My own summary: Microsoft’s Anti- #GNU #Linux Training Comes to #OfficeDepot, Not Just #BestBuy and #Staples http://ur1.ca/bfzxSep 10 12:28
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] younger teen's new pink socks in colour wash. everything tinted pink. GAH. rebleaching.Sep 10 12:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] http://is.gd/36CFl #pedigreedogsSep 10 13:46
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Musicians who understand that filesharers are doing what they did with cassettes http://is.gd/36D1JSep 10 13:49
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] The commercial viability of RFC 1149 confirmed http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8248056.stmSep 10 13:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat : #Microsoft Marketed Its Patents for #Trolls to Attack #FreeSoftware http://ping.fm/kP4N2Sep 10 13:56
schestowitzDell shoots low for SMBs < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/dell_smb_boxes/ >Sep 10 13:57
schestowitzShoots own foot?Sep 10 13:57
DaemonFChmmmm, the quad core Xeons are actually not that much more expensive than the Core 2 QuadsSep 10 14:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I'm messing about with #kde4 widgets that handle microblogging. I'm still loving #kde very much.Sep 10 14:08
schestowitzI got lancelot working as a widgetSep 10 14:08
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DaemonFCschestowitz: Acer is dumping more laptops at netbook pricesSep 10 14:11
schestowitzLet themSep 10 14:12
schestowitzreal netbook price is $200Sep 10 14:12
schestowitzNot what Microsoft made of theseSep 10 14:12
schestowitzfoxconn is making sub-$100 PCs with LinuxSep 10 14:13
schestowitz /$/£/Sep 10 14:13
DaemonFCschestowitz: I think Microsoft must be waiving the Vista license feesSep 10 14:13
DaemonFCfor certain "approved" laptopsSep 10 14:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #eMusic #fail http://ruthi.dreamwidth.org/10695.htmlSep 10 14:14
DaemonFCit's the only way they could get them down that cheapSep 10 14:14
schestowitzBaby swing vid man cut loose < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/baby_swing_dropped/ > Look at that..Sep 10 14:14
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schestowitzEruaran: KDE4 is amazing!Sep 10 14:16
Eruaranhi schestowitzSep 10 14:16
schestowitzI'm on the latest version at the moment. It's a winner.Sep 10 14:16
Eruaran4.3 is very goodSep 10 14:16
schestowitzNow it just needs more marketingSep 10 14:16
schestowitzI'm on 4.3.1, EruaranSep 10 14:16
DaemonFCComcast has a recorded greeting from Ben Stein on their 800 numberSep 10 14:16
DaemonFCyuckSep 10 14:16
schestowitzBen Stein is a dickSep 10 14:17
DaemonFCmust have had some time off from being a doucheSep 10 14:17
schestowitzEC to tackle 'misleading' online gadget sellers < http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/09/09/ec_probes_gagdet_websites/ >Sep 10 14:17
DaemonFCI had more money left over than I had budgeted forSep 10 14:18
DaemonFCso I'm taking out some of next months billsSep 10 14:18
schestowitzEruaran: there's good reason for Linux folks to be enthusiastic about the future. GNOME has a lot to do to catch up and competition is good. Vista that I used on display at the airport is WELL behindSep 10 14:18
EruaranW7 is well behind... and boringSep 10 14:19
schestowitzBen Stein is a shill for flying(R) spaghetti(R) monsters :-)Sep 10 14:19
DaemonFCVista was way too damned heavy, and that was 3 years agoSep 10 14:20
schestowitzEruaran: well, it's V7... VIstaSep 10 14:20
schestowitzThey spent no time on itSep 10 14:20
DaemonFCit still doesn't run well on "fast" systems from this yearSep 10 14:20
schestowitzFirst SPsSep 10 14:20
schestowitzThen some new UI stuffSep 10 14:20
EruaranThe best thing about V7 is the architecture wallpapersSep 10 14:20
schestowitzIllusion of noveltySep 10 14:20
schestowitzQuick glance at OS X and KDE4Sep 10 14:20
schestowitzEruaran: let me show you a memoSep 10 14:20
schestowitzHow Microsoft 'innovates'Sep 10 14:20
EruaranThey drink coffee and trawl kde blogs for ideasSep 10 14:21
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Lotus_ExhibitsSep 10 14:21
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Competitive_analysis_of_Lotus_Notes/Domino_R5 http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Enabling_Exchange_through_detailed_anaysis_of_Notes/Domino_and_DECS%2C_IBM_threat_to_Knowledge_WorkersSep 10 14:21
schestowitzThey just look at rivals' products and copySep 10 14:22
Eruaranthats news ?Sep 10 14:22
schestowitz"I don’t understand how IE is going to win. The current path is simply to copy everything that Netscape does packaging and product wise." --Jim Allchin, President of Platforms & Services Division at MicrosoftSep 10 14:22
schestowitzI have a memo of them copying OS X tooSep 10 14:22
Eruaranthey have to copy, they have never fostered a culture of real innovationSep 10 14:23
Eruarancopying others is all they knowSep 10 14:23
EruaranOr stealingSep 10 14:23
schestowitzHere: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/14/innovation-lie-swpatents/Sep 10 14:24
schestowitz==Sep 10 14:24
schestowitzFrom; Vic GundotraSep 10 14:24
schestowitzSent; Wednesday, 3une 30, 2004 8:29 AMSep 10 14:24
schestowitzTo: Jim Allchin; Brian Valentine; Will Poole; Joe PetersonSep 10 14:24
schestowitzCc; Sanjay Pathasarathy; Chrles FitzgeraldSep 10 14:24
schestowitzSubject: RE: tigerSep 10 14:24
schestowitzSteve is trying hard to retain the developers he has left.Sep 10 14:24
schestowitzHe showed “spotlight” functionality embedded in 4 different apps, then highlighted that developers can build (and should build) the same functionality in their apps,Sep 10 14:24
schestowitzI have SDK – will send to QuentinSep 10 14:24
schestowitzThey even showed a bit of extensibility in their design.Sep 10 14:24
schestowitz==Sep 10 14:24
schestowitzThis is handy when Microsoft says that everyone just "copies Windows"Sep 10 14:25
schestowitzor ExchangeSep 10 14:25
schestowitzExchange is a Lotus ripoffSep 10 14:25
schestowitzExploder is a Netscape feature-by-feature copySep 10 14:25
schestowitzWord also..Sep 10 14:25
Eruaranhave you seen kde's widget builder thingSep 10 14:27
schestowitzNot yetSep 10 14:28
Eruaranto make it easy to make widgets and add your own little bit of ecmascript or whateverSep 10 14:28
schestowitzFunny that you mention it nowSep 10 14:28
schestowitzJust a moment ago I micro-blogged about widgetsSep 10 14:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Lancelot in #kde looks fantastic and works really well. The #plasma team also has a spark for design.Sep 10 14:29
DaemonFCProgressive's automated system is so twitchy that if you breathe in it confuses itSep 10 14:29
Eruaranthey are building a platform that will open up the development of cool widgety things to the widest number of people everSep 10 14:29
DaemonFCI had to re-enter my account number twice, once cause I took a deep breath and once cause I closed a doorSep 10 14:29
Eruaranand it has network featuresSep 10 14:29
Eruaranwidgets over the networkSep 10 14:29
schestowitzI see.....Sep 10 14:29
schestowitzWell, I'm going through the list of what's installed by deafultSep 10 14:30
schestowitzIt's a lot more than what I found in 4.1Sep 10 14:30
DaemonFCthen it couldn't understand how I wanted to pay, so I got to do that over 3 timesSep 10 14:30
schestowitzIt's all SO beautiful (shiny! :-) )Sep 10 14:30
DaemonFCthen by the end it was like "I understand you want to....blah blah blah blah blah" I was like "Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes!!!!"Sep 10 14:30
DaemonFCI hate these thingsSep 10 14:30
schestowitzCTRL+F12 is similar to what Mac OS X achievesSep 10 14:30
DaemonFCthey must be using vista :)Sep 10 14:30
schestowitzPuts desktop in focus by shading appsSep 10 14:31
Eruaranschestowitz: the KDE team are building a platform that would take Microsoft YEARS to copy...Sep 10 14:31
DaemonFCmeh, KDE still feels wrongSep 10 14:31
DaemonFCand misses a few things I use entirelySep 10 14:32
EruaranWatch Microsoft try to cozy up with Nokia in the hope that they can screw up QtSep 10 14:32
schestowitzThat has already happenedSep 10 14:32
schestowitzBut Nokia has plans with Linux tooSep 10 14:32
DaemonFCand VLC is too stupid to figure out what my microphone is without Pulseaudio there to redirect itSep 10 14:32
EruaranNokia loves its MaemoSep 10 14:32
schestowitzThey are ambivalentSep 10 14:32
schestowitzAnd Symbian tooSep 10 14:32
MinceRnokia doesn't love its maemo enoughSep 10 14:32
schestowitzNot enough $$Sep 10 14:33
MinceRthe n97 gets some nice hw elements the n900 doesn'tSep 10 14:33
schestowitzn900 will hopefully bring their home some baconSep 10 14:33
schestowitzTHen they'll love Linux moreSep 10 14:33
MinceR(digital compass, apparently the headset connector)Sep 10 14:33
EruaranI don't use PulseaudioSep 10 14:33
Eruaranits evilSep 10 14:33
DaemonFCI don't have a choiceSep 10 14:33
MinceR(for me the latter is critical, but i'll wait until it's officially out, just to be sure)Sep 10 14:33
schestowitzIs the compass for mapping?Sep 10 14:33
schestowitzWhy not gps?Sep 10 14:33
MinceRmostlySep 10 14:33
schestowitzWho needs a compass these days?Sep 10 14:33
MinceRgps can't reliably determine your direction when walkingSep 10 14:33
schestowitzI seeSep 10 14:34
schestowitzYeah..Sep 10 14:34
schestowitzI thought about it as I went alongSep 10 14:34
DaemonFCschestowitz: People that don't want to pay $300 plus map update costs of $80 a yearSep 10 14:34
MinceRand the accelerometer can even find out the rest of the bearing of the deviceSep 10 14:34
DaemonFCI would imagineSep 10 14:34
schestowitzSatellite can't determine more than just absolute positionSep 10 14:34
schestowitzUnless!Sep 10 14:34
schestowitzYou walkSep 10 14:34
MinceRAR works better with compassSep 10 14:34
DaemonFCschestowitz: I still use a mapSep 10 14:34
DaemonFC:PSep 10 14:35
DaemonFCI hate those GPS systemsSep 10 14:35
DaemonFCthey usually get you more turned around than the map doesSep 10 14:35
schestowitzI have all the map I need inside my head :-)Sep 10 14:35
Eruaranheard an interesting term recentlySep 10 14:35
DaemonFCand they sound like Napoleon Dynamite is reading off directionsSep 10 14:35
EruaranThe "Stallman Paradox"Sep 10 14:35
MinceRi don't have the entire map of the Budapest Maze in my headSep 10 14:35
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EruaranohSep 10 14:35
EruaranBut Napoleon Dynamite is coolSep 10 14:36
schestowitzALso Freedonware manifestoSep 10 14:36
EruaranEspecially for prank callsSep 10 14:36
MinceR(when you randomly need to go left so you can turn right later, and where being allowed to turn left is a very rare, precious event in the inner city)Sep 10 14:36
EruaranThere's a comedy show in BritanSep 10 14:36
DaemonFCMore recertified Zunes up for sale :PSep 10 14:36
DaemonFCno expansion slot, only works with Windows, no Vorbis or FLAC supportSep 10 14:36
EruaranWhere the GPS gives funny directionsSep 10 14:36
schestowitzcertified for what?Sep 10 14:36
MinceR(not to mention the lack of proper signs)Sep 10 14:36
DaemonFCany takers? :)Sep 10 14:36
schestowitzAmnesty bin?Sep 10 14:36
DaemonFCschestowitz: I got a free ZuneSep 10 14:37
DaemonFCit went onto ebay without me even opening itSep 10 14:37
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/monopoly_city_streets_down_on_debut/Google Maps Monopoly board folds under server strainSep 10 14:37
Eruaranlol thats one of the things in those Best Buy screeniesSep 10 14:37
EruaranNo Zune support... I fell over laughingSep 10 14:37
schestowitzDaemonFC: any bidders?Sep 10 14:37
schestowitzPut it up as "iPod ripoff"Sep 10 14:38
DaemonFCschestowitz: I got rid of it for about $100 actuallySep 10 14:38
oiaohmDaemonFC: Only reason I could think of bidding on a Zune is for a historic piece.Sep 10 14:38
schestowitz"boxed as new (And needs dusting)"Sep 10 14:38
schestowitzEruaran: Live ServicesSep 10 14:38
oiaohmIe hoping it becomes a rare item to complete some computer display of historic bits.Sep 10 14:38
EruaranI know someone who has an Atari 1040ST kept in its original box wrapped upSep 10 14:38
schestowitzaka Bong Dead ServicesSep 10 14:38
EruaranHe got it out one nightSep 10 14:39
schestowitzLinux doesn't support itSep 10 14:39
schestowitzI guess Microsoft won't support itSep 10 14:39
schestowitzHow convenientSep 10 14:39
oiaohmLive Services kind runs in wine.Sep 10 14:39
EruaranIt was absolutely mint... so shiny and new looking I thought I'd been time warped back to the 1980'sSep 10 14:39
oiaohmI do mean kinda.Sep 10 14:39
DaemonFCwho would buy a player with no expansion slot?Sep 10 14:39
DaemonFCif nothing elseSep 10 14:39
DaemonFCthat should flag it as a shitty deal by itselfSep 10 14:40
EruaranA Windows userSep 10 14:40
schestowitzoiaohm: with those formats?Sep 10 14:40
DaemonFCunless it's a hard drive playerSep 10 14:40
schestowitzit's likle keeping a BEtaMax deviceSep 10 14:40
DaemonFCbut the flash oens only have 4-8 gigsSep 10 14:40
schestowitzI mean, WMA? I mean, come on..Sep 10 14:40
DaemonFC*onesSep 10 14:40
schestowitzThat won't play for much longerSep 10 14:40
Eruaranschestowitz: Only Betamax was more widely used ;)Sep 10 14:40
DaemonFCschestowitz: They do kind of support WMA ProSep 10 14:40
oiaohmWMA kind works in wine and mplayer using windows own codecs.Sep 10 14:40
oiaohmIf you call needing a windows licence to wine working that is where the kinda comes form.Sep 10 14:41
EruaranAll this talk about historic pieces and betamax has given me an urge to watch the original Jaws...Sep 10 14:42
oiaohmI think i have at long last to to the debian reinstall point unless I can come up with a creative idea.  Most audio playback is now gabled.Sep 10 14:42
DaemonFCoiaohm: The only reason I have Windows Media Player installed is for WMV support in a couple Microsoft gamesSep 10 14:42
EruaranAnd maybe Star WarsSep 10 14:42
schestowitz"Microsoft has promised to patch a serious flaw in newer versions of its Windows operating system after hackers released exploit code that allows them to take complete control of the underlying machines." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/microsoft_windows_security_bug/Sep 10 14:42
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DaemonFCFable actually used WMV and Ogg VorbisSep 10 14:42
_Hicham_DaemonFC the super encoderSep 10 14:42
EruaranI've been told the iRiver supports the most formatsSep 10 14:43
Eruaran(and what kind of a name is iRiver anyway ?)Sep 10 14:43
DaemonFCI've tested out the Sansa Fuze, still no WMA Pro supportSep 10 14:43
oiaohmiRiver most of them can have firmware replace with a Linux based done to it EruaranSep 10 14:43
DaemonFCit does support HE-AAC thoughSep 10 14:43
oiaohmSo yep basically everything.Sep 10 14:43
DaemonFCI think Sandisk started supporting FLAC and Vorbis so people would quit tryingto flash them with RockboxSep 10 14:44
DaemonFCbotch the flashSep 10 14:44
DaemonFCand return themSep 10 14:44
schestowitzoiaohm:Sep 10 14:44
schestowitz"Sep 10 14:44
schestowitzHackers reportedly knocked over the website of Australian prime minister Kevin Rudd for a few minutes on Wednesday in an apparent protest against government plans for compulsory internet content filtering.Sep 10 14:44
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/oz_filtering_protest/Sep 10 14:44
EruaranahSep 10 14:44
Eruarannice to know hackers are still thrivingSep 10 14:44
oiaohmYep the annoymous hacker group at work schestowitzSep 10 14:44
schestowitzEruaran: crackers?Sep 10 14:45
schestowitzMAybe this is marginal. They actually protest against a cause worth opposingSep 10 14:45
schestowitzThough DDOS would achieve nothingSep 10 14:45
schestowitzThis would help: http://notnews.today.com/?p=637Sep 10 14:45
DaemonFChmm, they have Netgear Wireless N routers for $30Sep 10 14:45
DaemonFCI'm still not thrilled with Wifi if I can avoid itSep 10 14:46
DaemonFCI'd rather run an ethernet cableSep 10 14:46
schestowitzwifi=radiation?Sep 10 14:47
DaemonFCwifi=shitty connections and random dropsSep 10 14:47
oiaohmWifi connection= sitting duck.Sep 10 14:48
DaemonFCyeah, plus the FCC now claims they're above the 4th amendmentSep 10 14:48
schestowitzYikes! German Pirate Party MP charged in child porn case < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/german_mp_tauss_charged_over_child_prn/ >Sep 10 14:48
DaemonFCsaying they can come in your house without a warrant to "inspect the router"Sep 10 14:48
schestowitzCause you can "promote terrorism" with an open connectionSep 10 14:49
schestowitzThat German Pirate Party is disgracing the other pirate partiesSep 10 14:49
oiaohmYou router is a active combat device.Sep 10 14:49
zlgencripted WiFi nodes can be very easily broken as well.Sep 10 14:50
schestowitzUnless someone planted the stuff to frame himSep 10 14:50
schestowitzWith Windows, people are sometimes accused of possessing stuff that's injected, like malwareSep 10 14:50
oiaohmOnly WiFI enterprise has not been broken yet zlgSep 10 14:50
schestowitzRemember the teacher incident and pr0nographic popup in class?Sep 10 14:50
schestowitzzlg: yes, WEP and WAPSep 10 14:50
oiaohmEverything else ie what most home users use has been cracked threw some method.Sep 10 14:50
zlggood, it would really suck if you could not get a secure Wifi.Sep 10 14:51
DaemonFCwow, I took out my cable and car insurance, and I'm 2 weeks ahead on my rent, and I'm still aheadSep 10 14:51
DaemonFChow the hell did that happen?Sep 10 14:51
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 14:51
oiaohmOk really who needs to crack in to damage a business zlgSep 10 14:51
DaemonFCthink I'll go fill up the gas tank before I figure out where all this money came from, lolSep 10 14:52
oiaohmIf you transmit too strong on the wifi channels you will break the recievers in most wifi devices.Sep 10 14:52
_Hicham_oiaohm : a lot of peopleSep 10 14:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: Microsoft pays you well? :-)Sep 10 14:52
oiaohmSo effectively nuking them out of existance.Sep 10 14:52
DaemonFCschestowitz: Never been paid by MicrosoftSep 10 14:52
schestowitzEdelman?Sep 10 14:52
schestowitz:-pSep 10 14:52
zlgthere was a doco here in Aus about a group in the US "wardriving" and sitting outside a major chain store stealing credit card numbers as they were cleared.Sep 10 14:52
zlgafter hours.Sep 10 14:53
DaemonFCUnless when you count that I couldn't say anything bad about the Zune or XBOX 360 if someone was asking me about them while I was in management at WalmartSep 10 14:53
schestowitzReally?Sep 10 14:53
schestowitzImplicit memo?Sep 10 14:53
DaemonFCI just bit my tongue and reiterated the specifications from MicrosoftSep 10 14:53
schestowitzOr explicit?Sep 10 14:53
DaemonFCit was expectedSep 10 14:53
trmancocan "idiot proof" be a offending expression?Sep 10 14:53
trmancoanSep 10 14:53
schestowitzNo need to mock itSep 10 14:54
trmancolike "Ubuntu is idiot proof"?Sep 10 14:54
schestowitzDaemonFC: you just say "Zune"Sep 10 14:54
DaemonFCif sales went down in my areas and I caused the problem, solving the problem involved firing meSep 10 14:54
DaemonFCit's impliedSep 10 14:54
oiaohmNo OS is idiot proof.  Idiots are creative.Sep 10 14:54
schestowitzThe crappiness is implied from the brand nameSep 10 14:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: Thos gPCs did sell out almost immediatelySep 10 14:54
DaemonFCand we got no returnsSep 10 14:54
schestowitzMicrosoft pushed Wal-Mart to drop LinuxSep 10 14:55
DaemonFCso I highly suspect the "high returns" claim was a lie everywhereSep 10 14:55
schestowitzThere's the memo we haveSep 10 14:55
oiaohmThere were some bad Linux products.Sep 10 14:55
oiaohmThe high returns come from those bad products.Sep 10 14:55
EruaranNot only is the "high returns" claim a lie, we still have customers who want Linux netbooks.Sep 10 14:55
schestowitzMSISep 10 14:55
DaemonFCoiaohm: Nobody expects much from a $200 PCSep 10 14:55
schestowitzThey put SUSE on netbooks !!!!Sep 10 14:55
schestowitzNo customisationSep 10 14:55
schestowitzJust tossed SUSE on itSep 10 14:56
schestowitzNo updates, nothingSep 10 14:56
schestowitzIt just bvrokeSep 10 14:56
DaemonFCI doubt they brought it back because it couldn't do anything that could be reasonably expected from a $200 PCSep 10 14:56
schestowitzAs expcetd from negligenceSep 10 14:56
oiaohmDaemonFC: when you have a badly installed OS that dies on the first day they kinda get returned.Sep 10 14:56
schestowitzASUS said return rates were the same for win and linSep 10 14:56
schestowitzJerry Shen said soSep 10 14:56
EruaranDell said the sameSep 10 14:56
DaemonFCoiaohm: People who asked me about them, I recommended formatting the disc and installing another distribution when they got homeSep 10 14:56
DaemonFCI tried out gOS just for funSep 10 14:56
oiaohmMost did not get that recommendation DaemonFCSep 10 14:57
EruaranDell has already announced new Ubuntu netbooks before Windows 7 appearsSep 10 14:57
EruaranI think its cause they know Microsoft's crippleware is a bad ideaSep 10 14:57
schestowitzYeah.Sep 10 14:57
oiaohmBasically the bad numbers were also partly the fault of badly trained staff.Sep 10 14:57
schestowitzKubuntu 9.10 will rockSep 10 14:57
schestowitzI run the alphaSep 10 14:57
schestowitzIt's like totally stable and finishedSep 10 14:57
_Hicham_schestowitz the testerSep 10 14:57
schestowitzI report a few bugs here and there, maybe one a day. Some "wishlist"Sep 10 14:58
schestowitz_Hicham_: join the club.Sep 10 14:58
schestowitzWhat do you use now?SSep 10 14:58
DaemonFCoiaohm: I originally started out stocking shelves in the frozen food department, then the department manager quit and I replaced herSep 10 14:58
schestowitzStill OpenBallnux?Sep 10 14:58
DaemonFCthen 6 months after that they had a salaried assistant manager position I tookSep 10 14:58
_Hicham_me ?Sep 10 14:58
DaemonFCbut the rule there is you have to switch storesSep 10 14:58
schestowitzDaemonFC: she got cold feetSep 10 14:58
EruaranMicrosoft expects OEM's to pre-install Windows 7 Starter Edition (Crippled Edition)... Dell clearly has other ideas: Not aggrivating your customers being one.Sep 10 14:58
DaemonFCschestowitz:  funnySep 10 14:59
oiaohmEruaran: no Dell has ideas of getting Ms windows from MS again for nothing.Sep 10 14:59
schestowitzEruaran: won't workSep 10 14:59
EruaranperhapsSep 10 14:59
schestowitzNot for longSep 10 14:59
oiaohmHardware companies don't want to pay any more.Sep 10 14:59
schestowitz"Acer and Intel, for example, are already complaining that Windows 7 Starter Edition simply won't sell."Sep 10 14:59
oiaohmMS has some big problems.Sep 10 14:59
schestowitzhttp://www.bmighty.com/blog/main/archives/2009/05/is_microsoft_he.htmlSep 10 14:59
EruaranI don't think Dell is dangling the carrotSep 10 14:59
schestowitzPeople will get talking and then ask shop to offer something elseSep 10 14:59
zlgthat's because it's cripped to hellSep 10 14:59
DaemonFCthe assistant manager positions are a joke, they do pay you more if you're willing to transfer more often thoughSep 10 15:00
Eruaranto get a better deal out of M$Sep 10 15:00
schestowitzEven XP will be better than Vista 7 on 'mini-laptops'Sep 10 15:00
DaemonFCand "promotion opportunities" come with being "flexible" :)Sep 10 15:00
EruaranStarter is seriously crippled in a very bad waySep 10 15:00
schestowitzMicrosoft will sell these still.. at like $500 apieceSep 10 15:00
_Hicham_schestowitz : what is OpenBallnux ?Sep 10 15:00
schestowitzNext to a $189 ARM machine with Ubuntu it will failSep 10 15:00
DaemonFCif you aren't willing to transfer, then after about 5 years as an assistant manager, you get pay cappedSep 10 15:00
DaemonFCand you just never really do move onSep 10 15:00
schestowitzSo more indocrinated/bribed staff is to be expectedSep 10 15:00
schestowitzFUlly-loaded propaganda modeSep 10 15:00
zlgI bet all the files are there for the higher versiosn as well, and a call to the mother ship and a credit card will get you an auto-upgrade.Sep 10 15:01
EruaranMicrosoft's strategy will fail - it will have a worse PR effect than Vista.Sep 10 15:01
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'll tell you how bad Walmart pays their assistant managersSep 10 15:01
schestowitz_Hicham_: it's opensuseSep 10 15:02
DaemonFCI got about $13,000 /yr raise leaving them to take the same position at Rent-A-CenterSep 10 15:02
schestowitzThat's a low wageSep 10 15:02
schestowitzNo offence intendedSep 10 15:02
schestowitzThat's Wal-MartSep 10 15:02
EruaranYou push crippleware that is so badly crippled that people can't even change the wallpaper/background... You ought to expect to get absolutely flogged.Sep 10 15:02
schestowitzPay as little as they can get away withSep 10 15:02
schestowitzWal-Mart=MarxismSep 10 15:03
DaemonFCWalmart was paying me about $32,000 a yearSep 10 15:03
EruaranApple will have a field day with 'Starter Edition'... I can see the adds now...Sep 10 15:03
DaemonFCRent A Center started me out around $45,000Sep 10 15:03
zlgwhat do they rent ?Sep 10 15:03
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schestowitzDaemonFC: you can do better than thatSep 10 15:03
DaemonFCzlg: Furniture, computers, video game consoles, lots of stuffSep 10 15:03
schestowitzRenting furniture... *Shudder*Sep 10 15:04
Eruaranhttp://www.censordyne.com.au/Sep 10 15:04
schestowitzCause the old couple may want some cough from a frat party...Sep 10 15:04
_Hicham_renting furnitureSep 10 15:04
schestowitz*couchSep 10 15:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: It was good quality furniture, but lets jsut say, you wanted to insist on something new :)Sep 10 15:05
DaemonFCyou'd still pay 5 times what it was worthSep 10 15:05
trmancowowSep 10 15:05
trmancohttp://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=32437Sep 10 15:05
DaemonFCbut at least there wouldn't be urine and bed bugs on itSep 10 15:05
trmancolook what I've foundSep 10 15:05
_Hicham_hahahahahaSep 10 15:05
DaemonFCI have no idea why they order name brand stuff to be ruined by some kid the first time it's rented out and he pisses the bedSep 10 15:05
satiperaThis whole business of Microsoft selling Linux patents does not seem to make much sense to me, unless there is going to be a second wave of selling to a specific troll, anyone care to comment?Sep 10 15:05
Eruaranhttp://search.censordyne.com/Sep 10 15:06
oiaohmThere is already information turning up that what you just said about MS selling them to trolls turns out to be true satiperaSep 10 15:06
DaemonFCschestowitz: I kept masks and rubber gloves and Out pet stain remover back thereSep 10 15:06
oiaohmGets even funnier OIN aquired them off the trolls satiperaSep 10 15:07
EruaranI like how instead of Gooooooooooooogle down the bottom it says CensooooooooooooooooredSep 10 15:07
DaemonFCmade all the "customer account representatives" work the piss stains out of the mattressesSep 10 15:07
DaemonFCwhile I played solitaire most of the timeSep 10 15:07
DaemonFCthat was awesomeSep 10 15:07
schestowitzsolitaire?Sep 10 15:07
_Hicham_2.6.31 went stableSep 10 15:08
schestowitzSad.Sep 10 15:08
DaemonFCwell, awesome when the regional management didn't pick us when it came time to chew ass over sales not being higherSep 10 15:08
schestowitzSolitudeSep 10 15:08
DaemonFCI think that's a given in management everywhereSep 10 15:08
schestowitz_Hicham_: url?Sep 10 15:08
satiperaI was under the impression OIN bought them from a company who said they did not fit in well with their productsSep 10 15:08
schestowitzIdeas for sale.Sep 10 15:08
schestowitzWhat a contempt for human kindSep 10 15:08
DaemonFCLinux is basically thriving under the threat of a patent warSep 10 15:09
schestowitz_Hicham_: I went to sell you a thoughSep 10 15:09
oiaohmhttp://kernel.org/  << schestowitz 2.6.31 is up.Sep 10 15:09
oiaohmNow do I wait for the .1Sep 10 15:09
schestowitz_Hicham_: I went to sell you a thought. Let's start the biddingSep 10 15:09
DaemonFCOIN has to collect patents to keep free software safe from patentsSep 10 15:09
EruaranCan you imagine what would happen if Microsoft was dumb enough to start a patent war ?Sep 10 15:09
schestowitzoiaohm: mailing list..?Sep 10 15:09
DaemonFCMicrosoft is like the raptors in Jurassic ParkSep 10 15:09
oiaohmsatipera: OIN did not aquire them directly.Sep 10 15:09
DaemonFCtesting the electric fencesSep 10 15:09
MinceREruaran: m$ would go bankrupt quickly?Sep 10 15:10
DaemonFCand that FAT32 settlement didn't look goodSep 10 15:10
satiperaIf the patents were imortant, why did ms sell them, If they were not important why did oin buy them?Sep 10 15:10
EruaranI can see the lineup of IBM lawyers now... salivating while looking at Microsoft lawyers on the other side of the courtroomSep 10 15:10
oiaohmThe patents apply to opengl so they are kinda important satiperaSep 10 15:10
DaemonFCyeah, Linux is safe because so many big businesses are using it and willing to have their legal departments cover itSep 10 15:10
satiperaHave ms sold other Linux related patents that have not been bought by OIN?Sep 10 15:11
oiaohmMost likely satiperaSep 10 15:11
schestowitz2009-09-01 - 2009-10-01 (3564 messages)Sep 10 15:11
schestowitz-  2009-08-01 - 2009-09-01 (12414 messages)Sep 10 15:11
schestowitzHoly cr*Sep 10 15:11
schestowitzHow does one keep track?Sep 10 15:11
DaemonFCoiaohm: So Microsoft can keep coming up with patents over damned near anything Linux does, right?Sep 10 15:11
oiaohmNot really DaemonFCSep 10 15:11
trmancohttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_thread/thread/8d753af0e8f585be#Sep 10 15:11
DaemonFChow does buying a dozen or so keep Linux safe?Sep 10 15:11
schestowitzThat's like a message every few secondsSep 10 15:12
trmancopostedSep 10 15:12
EruaranAll it takes is one mistake from MicrosoftSep 10 15:12
oiaohmOIN is run by IBM patent writers.Sep 10 15:12
oiaohmThe masters of the defensive document.Sep 10 15:12
schestowitzYEsSep 10 15:12
EruaranFor them to threaten one company they shouldn't haveSep 10 15:12
schestowitzLF tooSep 10 15:12
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trmancoI haven't found a testimonial like this in agesSep 10 15:12
schestowitzoiaohm: not defensiveSep 10 15:12
schestowitzFUD-orientedSep 10 15:12
schestowitz"Buy from us. It's safe."Sep 10 15:12
oiaohmSooner or later MS will take out a patent and MS will have ass sued off for creating a patent without a patent licence to the base patent.Sep 10 15:13
EruaranAnd all their extortion victims will come knockingSep 10 15:13
DaemonFCoiaohm: So, off topic, but I saw a while back that the OpenBSD people were criticizing GCC for being buggy and spitting out bad codeSep 10 15:13
DaemonFCand were trying to switch over to some compiler called "Mambo"Sep 10 15:13
DaemonFCbut then the page where they said that disappearedSep 10 15:13
schestowitzopenbsd dislikes gnuSep 10 15:13
DaemonFCany clue?Sep 10 15:13
oiaohmDaemonFC: llvm later beast.Sep 10 15:13
schestowitzNo news hereSep 10 15:13
satiperaHmm, ok thanks for info. I will have to wait for the whole sordid story to come out in time.Sep 10 15:14
oiaohmllvm comes out of a dispute in Mamdo DaemonFCSep 10 15:14
DaemonFCahhhSep 10 15:14
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DaemonFCso where exactly does GCC spit out bad code?Sep 10 15:14
DaemonFCwhat bugs were they talking about?Sep 10 15:14
schestowitzPirate Bay suitor shoved off Swedish stock exchange < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/pirate_bay_ggf_excluded_swedish_stock_exchange/ >Sep 10 15:14
DaemonFCI didn't see them cite particular examples, just a blanket accusation of being "bug ridden"Sep 10 15:14
oiaohmYou should see the work around in the Linux kernel source code DaemonFCSep 10 15:14
oiaohmThere are a lot of if gcc version X use this block of code.Sep 10 15:15
oiaohmBecause the other block of code will bust badly.Sep 10 15:15
DaemonFCoiaohm: So how is GCC progressing?Sep 10 15:15
DaemonFCdoes 4.4.x fix a significant amount of this?Sep 10 15:15
schestowitzMorning, wallclimberSep 10 15:15
oiaohmAlso GCC does not do link time opt.Sep 10 15:15
DaemonFCI heard that there were lots of packages out there that were failing quite badly if compiled with GCC 4.4Sep 10 15:16
oiaohmNot yet at least.Sep 10 15:16
DaemonFCexperienced quite a bit of that myselfSep 10 15:16
DaemonFCwhen testing out the pre-alpha Karmic development treeSep 10 15:16
trmancowhat would happen?Sep 10 15:16
oiaohmGcc between getting more picky and internal errors its bad.Sep 10 15:16
schestowitz"A South African IT outfit has shamed telecoms operator Telkom by sending 4GB of data 60 miles by pigeon in two hours - faster than it arrived by the ISP's broadband service."Sep 10 15:16
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/pigeon_v_broadband/Sep 10 15:16
DaemonFCsegfaults mainlySep 10 15:16
schestowitzWe take fast connectivity for granted hereSep 10 15:16
trmancohmmSep 10 15:16
_Hicham_everything was compiled with gcc-4.4 in Fedora-11Sep 10 15:16
DaemonFCI'm assuming that lots of people must have been working around GCC bugs that 4.4 fixedSep 10 15:16
oiaohmAlso some programs should have been segfaulting under early compliers DaemonFCSep 10 15:17
oiaohmGcc alignments were lettering buffer overflows.Sep 10 15:17
_Hicham_gcc 4.4 is stricterSep 10 15:17
schestowitzGoogle extends love for Chrome extensions on dev preview < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/google_chrome_extensions/ >\Sep 10 15:17
DaemonFC_Hicham_: So bad code that GCC *was* forgiving but not anymore?Sep 10 15:17
_Hicham_schestowitz : a chrome extension froze my computerSep 10 15:18
oiaohmYep DaemonFCSep 10 15:18
oiaohmAlso there are a few new bugs in gcc 4.4 as well.Sep 10 15:18
_Hicham_no more forgivenessSep 10 15:18
DaemonFCI tried compiling Sauerbraten with GCC 4.4Sep 10 15:18
DaemonFCit ruins the texture loadingSep 10 15:18
DaemonFCso you end up playing the game with no texturesSep 10 15:18
DaemonFCjust the wire framesSep 10 15:18
_Hicham_what errors did u get ?Sep 10 15:18
_Hicham_no compilation errors?Sep 10 15:18
DaemonFC_Hicham_: Plenty of warningsSep 10 15:19
DaemonFCthere's always been some, but this was ridiculous, it compiled thoughSep 10 15:19
DaemonFCbut not correctly, obviouslySep 10 15:19
_Hicham_did u try a build with 4.3 on the same machine?Sep 10 15:19
DaemonFCit compiles fine as long as you use a version of GCC other than 4.4.xSep 10 15:20
_Hicham_I am using gcc-4.4 for some time, never had a problem with itSep 10 15:20
oiaohmDoes not mean the code is fine DaemonFCSep 10 15:20
_Hicham_gcc (GCC) 4.4.1 20090725Sep 10 15:20
oiaohmGCC 4.4 has better prevention against even single byte overflows.Sep 10 15:20
_Hicham_there is a lot of warnings in firefox codeSep 10 15:21
oiaohmYes a lot of programs have those.Sep 10 15:21
DaemonFCoiaohm: Security reasons?Sep 10 15:21
_Hicham_like : comparing a signed and insigned integersSep 10 15:21
oiaohmA single byte over flow can in some cases cause a secuirty flaw DaemonFCSep 10 15:22
DaemonFChmmmSep 10 15:22
oiaohmNow if the code is fineSep 10 15:22
oiaohmno overflows then gcc is at fault.Sep 10 15:22
DaemonFCoiaohm: So as more distributions use GCC 4.4, we'll probably be seeing less security problems?Sep 10 15:22
oiaohmThat is what gcc is working to.Sep 10 15:23
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oiaohmGcc 4.4 is not the solution.Sep 10 15:23
oiaohmWe need lto to find a lot more combination flaws that cause secuirty issues.Sep 10 15:23
_Hicham_fedora was the first one to migrate to gcc-4.4Sep 10 15:23
DaemonFCseems to be trying to promote security by forcing the programmers to write better codeSep 10 15:23
oiaohmThere are still a lot of flaws in linux source base to be dug out.Sep 10 15:24
DaemonFCwell, anything with 11.5 millions source lines of code will have lots of bugsSep 10 15:24
DaemonFC*millionSep 10 15:24
oiaohmLinux world DaemonFC.  Some distributions run auditing packages over it.Sep 10 15:24
oiaohmNot exactly DaemonFCSep 10 15:24
oiaohmOn adverage secuirty flaws are lower in open source.Sep 10 15:24
oiaohmAnd that has been independantly compared.Sep 10 15:25
oiaohmIt is part quality of tools used.Sep 10 15:25
schestowitzArgentian News Report Worries About Kids Drinking GrogXD < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090904/1843316118.shtml >Sep 10 15:25
DaemonFCwell, I have seen a lot of patches rolling in nonethelessSep 10 15:26
DaemonFCusually at least a couple hundred with security implications over a 6 month lifespan of a distributionSep 10 15:26
DaemonFCis it that they're just being a lot more anal about it than Apple or Microsoft?Sep 10 15:27
oiaohmThink about numbers of software applications covered DaemonFCSep 10 15:27
oiaohmcouple of hundred is not that many really.Sep 10 15:27
oiaohmMicrosoft and apple both hide stuff Linux world calls secuirty faults.Sep 10 15:28
oiaohmIf its a buffer overflow anywhere it gets taged as a secuirty fault under Linux.Sep 10 15:28
DaemonFCwell, it's kind of hard to do an apples to apples comparison when Windows can live on for 10 years and a new version of your Linux distribution can be out every 6 months, isn't it?Sep 10 15:28
oiaohmEven if it not simply exploitable.Sep 10 15:28
DaemonFCI've seen Microsoft try to just do a simple count comparison over a given time period beforeSep 10 15:29
oiaohmWith Apple it must be exploitable.Sep 10 15:29
oiaohmWith MS it must be exploited by attackers.Sep 10 15:29
DaemonFCthat explains it thenSep 10 15:29
oiaohmAlso hard thinking they are all using different metrics.Sep 10 15:29
oiaohmAnd over different numbers of applications.Sep 10 15:29
oiaohmLike MS don't count flash and pdf faults in there count.  Where a Linux distribution would as well.Sep 10 15:30
DaemonFCoiaohm: So by the time you see a patch from Microsoft, it's always because it's too late and there's already worms or whatever out there attacking it?Sep 10 15:30
DaemonFCthey never fix anything til it's being attacked?Sep 10 15:30
_Hicham_yes, of courseSep 10 15:30
_Hicham_because the vulnerabilities go publicSep 10 15:31
schestowitzhttp://techdirt.com/articles/20090909/0122546138.shtml Conde Nast Discovers That The Streisand Effect Reaches Russia TooSep 10 15:31
_Hicham_so everyone can exploit themSep 10 15:31
oiaohmLinux numbers are not that high if you level it up.Sep 10 15:31
oiaohmWhen you wake up the Linux guys are also reporting more.Sep 10 15:31
oiaohmDaemonFC:  no ms does not own up to a fault existing until its attacked.Sep 10 15:31
oiaohmMS has limited resources compared to Linux.Sep 10 15:32
oiaohmSo they have to que secuirty flaws.Sep 10 15:32
schestowitz"Mike Masnick originally coined the term Streisand effect in reference to a 2003 incident where Barbra Streisand sued photographer Kenneth Adelman and Pictopia.com for US$50 million in an attempt to have the aerial photo of her house removed from the publicly available collection of 12,000 California coastline photographs, citing privacy concerns."Sep 10 15:32
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_EffectSep 10 15:32
schestowitzI didn't know Mike has coined itSep 10 15:32
oiaohmLinux does not have to.  Programing teams under Linux are large enough to issue out secuirty flaws as they come.Sep 10 15:32
schestowitz*hadSep 10 15:32
schestowitzhttp://www.thestreisandeffect.com/Sep 10 15:34
schestowitzHeh. http://www.thestreisandeffect.com/200908/did-you-know-that-liskula-cohen-is-a-skank/Sep 10 15:35
oiaohmhttp://lkml.org/lkml/2009/9/9/357  LOL read the Linus release note for 2.6.31 schestowitzSep 10 15:36
DaemonFCWine + Compiz aren't giving me any problems on MandrivaSep 10 15:38
DaemonFCthey do on Ubuntu for some reasonSep 10 15:38
schestowitzGreat headline: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1533044/pirate-bay-buyer-banned-offering-shares (Pirate Bay buyer banned from offering shares)Sep 10 15:38
schestowitzoiaohm: thanksSep 10 15:38
DaemonFCoiaohm: I may just run Sauerbraten for Windows in WineSep 10 15:38
DaemonFCtil they get their shit together in the Linux version's source codeSep 10 15:38
_Hicham_DaemonFC : it is ur problemSep 10 15:40
_Hicham_sauerbraten is doing fine on linuxSep 10 15:40
DaemonFCnot here it isn'tSep 10 15:40
oiaohmHave to get to kernel newbies yet to see if they have the report on 2.6.31 feature up yet schestowitz linus might have caught them hopping.Sep 10 15:40
DaemonFCit's simple enough to compile, I've done it plenty of timesSep 10 15:41
_Hicham_there is a problem with ur libGL i thinkSep 10 15:41
DaemonFCdoubtfulSep 10 15:41
_Hicham_or, try to fix the warningsSep 10 15:42
_Hicham_u should have reported the problemSep 10 15:44
_Hicham_instead of whiningSep 10 15:44
schestowitz Man gored to death in bull run http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10595734Sep 10 15:44
DaemonFCyeah, so it can either collect dust in some bugzilla somewhereSep 10 15:44
schestowitzbad gnuSep 10 15:44
oiaohmhttp://kernelnewbies.org/LinuxChanges  schestowitz kernelnewbies is upto date as well.Sep 10 15:44
DaemonFCor a million other people have the problem and it'll get fixed anywaySep 10 15:44
schestowitzoiaohm: Don Christie tries to make up for InfoWorld's attack on the GPL. http://www.infoworld.com/d/applications/gpl-delivers-clarity-and-freedom-business-891Sep 10 15:46
schestowitzThey play good cop, bad copSep 10 15:47
schestowitzAttack GPLSep 10 15:47
schestowitzThen play nice to itSep 10 15:47
schestowitzLike you said before, it's the old troll recipeSep 10 15:47
schestowitzAn article for each side, trying to pretend the other was "just a mistake"Sep 10 15:47
schestowitzIsn't CHristie like the head of Linux thingie in NZ?Sep 10 15:47
oiaohmYes runs the Linux conf in NZ with a few other things schestowitzSep 10 15:49
oiaohminfoworld does have a bsd and a Linux person.Sep 10 15:49
_Hicham_DaemonFC : official sauerbraten is 32 bits onlySep 10 15:49
oiaohmFrom time to times they rip into each other quite well funny enough even at public events schestowitz.Sep 10 15:50
DaemonFCIt compiles as X86-64 and has for some timeSep 10 15:50
DaemonFCI'm not in the mood to report a bug and have it sit dormant or have people play the blame gameSep 10 15:50
DaemonFCeventually, some asshole whose fault it ultimately was all along will come forth and fix itSep 10 15:51
DaemonFCwhen it bothers _them_Sep 10 15:51
oiaohmI have put feature requests into gcc and had to wait 6 years.Sep 10 15:51
oiaohmI have in time got my feature requests coded.Sep 10 15:51
oiaohmOpen source world is not always been in a hurry.Sep 10 15:52
DaemonFCthat's what I call the natural bug lifecycleSep 10 15:52
DaemonFCwhen the maintainer or one of his minions hits the bug, it will be fixedSep 10 15:52
oiaohmIt was not a critical bug.Sep 10 15:52
DaemonFCno sooner or laterSep 10 15:52
wallclimberoops, i missed the nice "good morning" greeting.  Good morning to you too! (I'm not really awake yet :)Sep 10 15:52
oiaohmLets let the source override the complier flags.Sep 10 15:52
oiaohmAnd not allow anything from command line to undo that.Sep 10 15:52
oiaohmNot critical but hid a lot of flaws.Sep 10 15:53
_Hicham_great DaemonFC's theory, as alwaysSep 10 15:53
_Hicham_playing a free game, not even mention a bug in counterpartSep 10 15:53
_Hicham_u are a shame on linuxSep 10 15:54
DaemonFChehSep 10 15:54
DaemonFCI've had plenty of bugs with plenty of very detailed core dumps pinned to them affecting a great many packagesSep 10 15:55
_Hicham_where is that ?Sep 10 15:55
_Hicham_in which bugzilla?Sep 10 15:55
DaemonFCunless it bother's the maintainer, it won't be fixed, is the general ruleSep 10 15:55
DaemonFC*bothersSep 10 15:55
_Hicham_he must reproduce the bugSep 10 15:56
_Hicham_do u understand that ?Sep 10 15:56
DaemonFCwell, Ubuntu's bug reporting system is the worstSep 10 15:56
_Hicham_*reproduce*Sep 10 15:56
_Hicham_that is the keySep 10 15:56
DaemonFCeither it just sits there, or some idiot decides it's a duplicate even when it may not beSep 10 15:56
DaemonFCand you get signed up for every comment anyone makes on itSep 10 15:56
DaemonFCin your email inboxSep 10 15:56
_Hicham_of courseSep 10 15:57
oiaohmDaemonFC: you missed the worse bit.Sep 10 15:57
_Hicham_that is the bugzillaSep 10 15:57
oiaohmThe Ubuntu mantainers themselves sometimes make it way worse not better.Sep 10 15:57
DaemonFCjust sit back, work around it, and let the chaos theory continue workingSep 10 15:57
oiaohmThey miss doing good enough testing.Sep 10 15:57
_Hicham_oiaohm : they base themselves on the use cases they haveSep 10 15:57
oiaohmEven missing running the applications own test suite _Hicham_?Sep 10 15:58
oiaohmThat shows up there alteration is screwed.Sep 10 15:58
oiaohmYes I have caught Ubuntu maintainers doing that.Sep 10 15:58
_Hicham_well, I submit patches for fedora, they got integrated quicklySep 10 15:59
oiaohmFedora one does it they get skined alive.Sep 10 15:59
oiaohmIf something has a testsuite maintainers must built and run it under Fedora.Sep 10 15:59
schestowitzwallclimber: tell me when you wake up thenSep 10 15:59
_Hicham_I try to avoid patchesSep 10 15:59
oiaohmI wish more distributions took up better Q&A.Sep 10 15:59
_Hicham_but sometimes, patches are necessarySep 10 16:00
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schestowitzI had a nightmare last night, which is odd cause it has been years since the last timeSep 10 16:00
_Hicham_but test suites must be runSep 10 16:00
wallclimberok, i'm sort of awake...my eyes are mostly openSep 10 16:00
_Hicham_I wouldn't approve a package review that has disabled the test suiteSep 10 16:00
DaemonFCoiaohm: I think it boils down to "Something that belongs to everyone belongs to nobody"Sep 10 16:00
schestowitzwallclimber: telepathicSep 10 16:00
oiaohmNo it does not DaemonFCSep 10 16:00
oiaohmIt boils down to who runs the projects.Sep 10 16:01
DaemonFCif a distribution just mindlessly bundles things, they can say "It's an upstream problem"Sep 10 16:01
DaemonFCso it's not really their problem, is it?Sep 10 16:01
oiaohmReally.Sep 10 16:01
oiaohmIt is there problem.Sep 10 16:01
wallclimberwhat was the nightmare?Sep 10 16:01
oiaohmIts exactly the same as a importer of a defective product DaemonFCSep 10 16:02
oiaohmThe importer is held accountable.Sep 10 16:02
_Hicham_I can't package a software and not try to find its bugsSep 10 16:02
DaemonFCoiaohm: "We'll sit around and wait for Suse to fix it"Sep 10 16:02
_Hicham_it is my reputation in thereSep 10 16:02
schestowitzwallclimber: I remember it vaguely onlySep 10 16:02
DaemonFC"Well, Fedora doesn't use these anymore, now what do we do?"Sep 10 16:02
DaemonFC:DSep 10 16:02
schestowitzThere's no actual reason for it, none I could think of. Probably a matter of probability really.Sep 10 16:03
oiaohmSuse developers do fix things DaemonFCSep 10 16:03
schestowitzKids tend to have nightmares more frequentlySep 10 16:03
DaemonFCthere's lots of out of tree patches that distributions just slap into their version of the packageSep 10 16:03
schestowitzAnd stupid adults are still showing kids witches and stuffSep 10 16:03
schestowitzSome tell them about Hell to scare themSep 10 16:03
schestowitzChild abuseSep 10 16:03
oiaohmUbuntu formed a rouge branch of Debian.Sep 10 16:03
wallclimberi think bad dreams are just the brain's way of letting off steamSep 10 16:03
schestowitzLegends of monsters and stuffSep 10 16:04
oiaohmDebian was very strict on the testsuite running.Sep 10 16:04
schestowitzI assume it's for them to aqcuire 'defensive' fearSep 10 16:04
schestowitz*AcquireSep 10 16:04
oiaohmUbuntu is the rebellous child that has not learnt better yet desuSep 10 16:04
schestowitzLike ammunition to emotional painSep 10 16:04
oiaohmopps DaemonFCSep 10 16:04
DaemonFCMandriva patched X.org with the Suse patch that lets them bring back ctrl-alt-bksp to restart X, except now it beeps for a few seconds firstSep 10 16:04
DaemonFClike "Hey asshole, wake up!"Sep 10 16:04
oiaohmwhySep 10 16:04
DaemonFCon three keys you'll never likely hit unless X is frozen anywaySep 10 16:05
DaemonFC:DSep 10 16:05
oiaohmctrl-alt-bksp has no place in X11.Sep 10 16:05
oiaohmIt should be assigned to the kernel sak key.Sep 10 16:05
oiaohmResult is the same.Sep 10 16:05
wallclimbersure, that's possible too.  i've only had a few in my life that i remember.  mostly they happened when my kids were little.  i think i worried about them more than i realizedSep 10 16:05
oiaohm1 killed and restarted X11 server.Sep 10 16:05
DaemonFCX doesn't die as much as it used to at leastSep 10 16:06
oiaohmDifferent is sak does not depend on X11 running.Sep 10 16:06
wallclimberthe science of sleep is fascinatingSep 10 16:06
DaemonFCWine still pisses it off more than anything elseSep 10 16:06
oiaohmmy audio is pissing me off.Sep 10 16:06
oiaohmIts going to annoy me after 8 years of running this install have to clean it out.Sep 10 16:06
oiaohmI suspect I have lost configurations.Sep 10 16:07
DaemonFCI'm wishing someone would patch Banshee alreadySep 10 16:07
DaemonFCthis Last.FM thing is just absurdSep 10 16:07
DaemonFCthe patch is so obviousSep 10 16:07
DaemonFCit's already writtenSep 10 16:07
schestowitzwallclimber: yes, sleep paralysis tooSep 10 16:07
schestowitzDoes it have a purpose?Sep 10 16:07
oiaohmEverything I play ends up garbled if I skip forwards in mplayer any ideas what I have to kill DaemonFCSep 10 16:07
DaemonFCschestowitz: So you won't draw attention to yourself?Sep 10 16:08
schestowitzI think there was an experiment in Canada where they took twins and let one grow up without fearsSep 10 16:08
DaemonFCless likely to be eaten by an animal in the middle of the night?Sep 10 16:08
wallclimberi don't know if it ha a purpose, but i know i really hate it when it happensSep 10 16:08
schestowitzHe prospered compared to the sibling?Sep 10 16:08
wallclimber*has*Sep 10 16:08
schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8245312.stm ( DNA pioneer's 'eureka' momentSep 10 16:08
DaemonFCoiaohm: What distribution?Sep 10 16:08
DaemonFCWhat version of Pulseaudio?Sep 10 16:08
oiaohmDaemonFC: Debain testing no PulseaudioSep 10 16:08
schestowitzwallclimber: leads people to telling stories of alien abductionsSep 10 16:08
DaemonFCUbuntu has that problem in Mplayer and VLCSep 10 16:08
schestowitzOr the whole "I felt like GOd was in the room"Sep 10 16:08
schestowitzIn the middle ages it was perceived that way,I've readSep 10 16:09
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DaemonFCAlien abductions are more credibleSep 10 16:09
schestowitzBTW, I'll do COmes tomorrow or weekend...Sep 10 16:09
oiaohmNote DaemonFC even flash is effectedSep 10 16:09
schestowitzPeople come back from vacations and have too much to published and others to keep up w/Sep 10 16:09
oiaohmYes my sound stack is completely shot to hell.Sep 10 16:10
schestowitz"abductions" are not credibleSep 10 16:10
schestowitzThere's no proofSep 10 16:10
wallclimberi've solved a lot of problems in my dreams, and woke up knowing how to fix something..mostly design problems in some artwork...but i think sleep and dreams are important to creativitySep 10 16:10
DaemonFCI'd say intelligent alien life is more likely than GodSep 10 16:10
schestowitzLike an alien utilitySep 10 16:10
oiaohmThe question is how far way is the alien.Sep 10 16:10
schestowitzThe funny ones are about sexual exploitation from supposed "aliens"Sep 10 16:10
oiaohmWe have not explored this solar system completely.Sep 10 16:11
DaemonFCthey may have even tweaked us to regard them as GodSep 10 16:11
wallclimberDaemonFC: speaking of intelligent alien life, how are you this morning? :o)Sep 10 16:11
schestowitzyeah,. people travelled from distant galaxies to screw usSep 10 16:11
schestowitzSure, that makes a lot of senseSep 10 16:11
DaemonFCschestowitz: You remember Thor and the Asgard in Stargate SG-1, right?Sep 10 16:11
DaemonFClike that maybeSep 10 16:11
schestowitzIt's romantic like the idea that God is like a very, very big man who looks like us (unless "us' are ladies)Sep 10 16:11
schestowitzI don't watch StargateSep 10 16:12
DaemonFCschestowitz: And every woman in the bible was deceitful, dishonest, and/or some kind of prostitute except for the "Virgin Mary"Sep 10 16:12
DaemonFCnotice this?Sep 10 16:12
oiaohmWe could be the backwater alien crime come to get away with trouble.Sep 10 16:12
schestowitzAnd virgin Mary had no sexSep 10 16:12
schestowitzLike they are disgusted by the idea of genitalia in religion... that's how Hitchen puts itSep 10 16:13
schestowitzAnd yet..Sep 10 16:13
schestowitzHE arguesSep 10 16:13
wallclimberoiaohm: so that explains Ballmer!Sep 10 16:13
DaemonFCschestowitz: Not all of themSep 10 16:13
schestowitzThey are always obsessed with that region.Sep 10 16:13
DaemonFCbut Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all areSep 10 16:13
schestowitzHe's very funny about itSep 10 16:13
DaemonFCvery very repressed and backwardsSep 10 16:13
DaemonFCsome in each group way more than others thoughSep 10 16:14
schestowitzThere's this lunatic type with the "alien" made us obsessionSep 10 16:14
DaemonFCtil you get to the AmishSep 10 16:14
schestowitzNot as bad as the type which says SOME of us are aliensSep 10 16:14
DaemonFCschestowitz: You have any of them around where you are?Sep 10 16:14
schestowitzAnd some are CROCODILES or reptilesSep 10 16:14
DaemonFC:DSep 10 16:14
DaemonFCnot violent, just like something ripped out of the 1600sSep 10 16:15
schestowitzSome stay out of the way of othersSep 10 16:15
schestowitzThat's OKSep 10 16:15
schestowitzWhen it comes to education it's a riddleSep 10 16:15
DaemonFCschestowitz: They call us the "English"Sep 10 16:15
DaemonFCand they say it with such contemptSep 10 16:15
schestowitzLike, if kids are being taught about Hell and stuff, that can be your kid tooSep 10 16:15
DaemonFCthey separate off into their own communitiesSep 10 16:16
oiaohmThe source regiion of Christianity Judaism and Islam is almost no more.Sep 10 16:16
schestowitzI don't want my kids to be taught lies cause it's 'politically correct'Sep 10 16:16
oiaohmYou have to wonder what regilion will look like in 100 years time.Sep 10 16:16
schestowitzThere's already a unified scientific theory with which to teach morals tooSep 10 16:16
DaemonFCoiaohm: Probably a lot like it does nowSep 10 16:16
schestowitzEven responsibility for the planet, species, peersSep 10 16:17
DaemonFCI wouldn't even expect religion to go away if we conquered death and colonized other planetsSep 10 16:17
schestowitzIt won't vanishSep 10 16:17
schestowitzIt never didSep 10 16:17
DaemonFCit may take a different form thoughSep 10 16:17
schestowitzNeither has slaverySep 10 16:17
schestowitzPeople believe in the wantsSep 10 16:17
schestowitzNot the truthsSep 10 16:17
schestowitzThat's a natural thingSep 10 16:17
schestowitzSome people read horoscopesSep 10 16:18
schestowitzEven if they might know it's made upSep 10 16:18
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ABE3wvxzASep 10 16:18
wallclimberi prefer fortune cookiesSep 10 16:18
schestowitzAnd then you have all sort of phonies like magicians and the Uri Geller fraud typesSep 10 16:18
schestowitzwallclimber: yes, edible.Sep 10 16:18
wallclimber:)Sep 10 16:18
wallclimberfortune cookies are baked by aliensSep 10 16:19
wallclimbertrapped in chinese kitchensSep 10 16:19
schestowitzAliens from HEAVEN!Sep 10 16:19
schestowitzThe 'blue' typeSep 10 16:19
wallclimberisn't that a song? "My Blue Heaven"Sep 10 16:20
wallclimberok, it's a very old songSep 10 16:20
schestowitzMusicians hit out at piracy plans http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8247376.stmSep 10 16:20
schestowitzHow ironic. The front group which supposedly represents singer is denounced by themSep 10 16:21
schestowitzwallclimber: yes, I have the Django versionSep 10 16:21
schestowitzIt's public domain afaikSep 10 16:21
schestowitz OpenOffice Reveals Motivation for Security Updates http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/OpenOffice-Reveals-Motivation-for-Security-UpdatesSep 10 16:22
wallclimberyes, probably so...it's been around long enoughSep 10 16:22
schestowitzHere's Chicago redoing Glenn Miller http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN2un3lnqw0Sep 10 16:23
DaemonFCUbuntu is passing out Prism appsSep 10 16:24
DaemonFCincluding one for GmailSep 10 16:24
wallclimberChicago really shouldn't have done that...Sep 10 16:25
wallclimberGlen was probably turning in his graveSep 10 16:25
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schestowitzhttp://linusearch.com/wordpress/?p=426Sep 10 16:26
wallclimber(okay, the horn section does a great job)Sep 10 16:26
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 10 16:26
schestowitzwallclimber: LOLSep 10 16:26
wallclimberi need more coffee...back later :)Sep 10 16:26
schestowitzTurning in his grave... gentlySep 10 16:26
wallclimberactually glen would be swinging in his graveSep 10 16:27
wallclimber:)Sep 10 16:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: Some guy commented on my blog saying he was the guy that leaked those screenshots from the Best Buy training moduleSep 10 16:27
DaemonFCthen came back today and asked me to delete that commentSep 10 16:27
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MinceRlolSep 10 16:28
schestowitzDaemonFC: which comment/post?Sep 10 16:29
schestowitzOhSep 10 16:29
schestowitzI know which oneSep 10 16:29
DaemonFCI deleted itSep 10 16:29
DaemonFCI figured that his employer would not look favorably on thisSep 10 16:30
schestowitz'Empoyer'Sep 10 16:30
schestowitzWith a whipSep 10 16:30
schestowitzBest BribeSep 10 16:30
schestowitz*BUySep 10 16:30
DaemonFCwell, I'd hate to see someone get sacked over thisSep 10 16:31
schestowitzRacketeering case against Microsoft, Best Buy revived  < http://www.networkworld.com/news/2007/050907-racketeering-microsoft-best-buy.html >Sep 10 16:31
DaemonFCthe world needs more whistleblowersSep 10 16:31
schestowitzOther shops did it tooSep 10 16:31
schestowitzBut Best Bribe took the PR blowSep 10 16:31
schestowitzSo BEst Buy is loathed by some Mac and Linux users nowSep 10 16:32
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schestowitzDaemonFC: WIkileaksSep 10 16:32
DaemonFCschestowitz: Like I said, Best Buy has to go along with this cause they need Microsoft more than Microsoft needs themSep 10 16:32
twitter1oh my, this is going to be fun.  M$'s "pressure protection" ->   The update implements a new feature called memory pressure protection, which automatically drops existing TCP connections and SYN requests when attacks are detected.Sep 10 16:33
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schestowitzThe world need more regulators, not just leakersSep 10 16:33
DaemonFCMicrosoft can play manufacturers and stores both sides down the middleSep 10 16:33
schestowitzLeaks don't stop crimeSep 10 16:33
twitter1Best Buy needs M$ like they need an empty store.Sep 10 16:33
schestowitzThey present evidence for doughnut-gobbling regulators to do their job  properlySep 10 16:33
schestowitzThe stupid EU COmmission didn't do anything about the OOXML corruptionSep 10 16:33
twitter1Moving to all M$ netbooks is killing sales for them.Sep 10 16:33
schestowitzMicrosoft is more of a political movement, a criminal orgSep 10 16:34
DaemonFCtwitter1: I've already detailed why Best Buy needs WindowsSep 10 16:34
schestowitzANd they should be treated as suchSep 10 16:34
DaemonFCit's a gateway drug to the really hard shitSep 10 16:34
schestowitzBut they aren't,Sep 10 16:34
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 16:34
schestowitzSome with some bankersSep 10 16:34
twitter1your details are wrongSep 10 16:34
schestowitzThey can steal, cause deaths etc. and go on like nothing happenedSep 10 16:34
DaemonFCif they start selling Linux, their profit will be halved immediatelySep 10 16:34
DaemonFCor worseSep 10 16:34
twitter1go to Best Buy and see the buyer free zone yourselfSep 10 16:34
schestowitzCause they are more powerful than governments and outnumber them in staff and moneySep 10 16:34
DaemonFCeven if they sell the same number of systemsSep 10 16:34
twitter1nonsenseSep 10 16:34
DaemonFCnope, not nonsense, Linux is not profitable to themSep 10 16:35
twitter1see Asus EEE PC sales as an example.Sep 10 16:35
DaemonFCthey can't sell you antivirusSep 10 16:35
DaemonFCthey can't sell you "Geek Squad"Sep 10 16:35
DaemonFCthey can't sell you OfficeSep 10 16:35
twitter1M$ can't sell anything these days either.Sep 10 16:35
DaemonFCtheir sales on sales would jsut evaporateSep 10 16:35
schestowitzThey don't buy it thereSep 10 16:35
twitter1the reality is that M$ only retailers are failing.Sep 10 16:35
schestowitzThese can be bought anywhereSep 10 16:35
schestowitzThat's a general thing, not a store-based thingSep 10 16:35
twitter1CompUSA, Circuit City .... and so on.Sep 10 16:36
twitter1There will be more soon enough.Sep 10 16:36
DaemonFCBest Buy makes much more money on boxed software and boxed video gamesSep 10 16:36
DaemonFCthe PCs are just there so you have something which makes you buy more thingsSep 10 16:36
twitter1Video games, maybe but that's PS3, Wii and not M$.Sep 10 16:36
DaemonFCit's like the grocery store selling potato chips for 50 cents a bag to get you in the storeSep 10 16:36
twitter1The other stuff is dead in the water and has been for a long time.Sep 10 16:36
DaemonFCthey lose money on the chips, but you buy lots of other things while you're there anywaySep 10 16:37
schestowitzDaemonFC: you have wrong assumptionsSep 10 16:37
schestowitzVERY wrongSep 10 16:37
DaemonFCthey see Windows as a gateway to more "software and service" salesSep 10 16:37
schestowitzAs if Best Bribe sets the standards for what the world usesSep 10 16:37
DaemonFCLinux can't give them that, or the bundled crapware kickbacksSep 10 16:37
schestowitzAs if when Best Buy moves to Linux, then the whole country would do so tooSep 10 16:37
schestowitzAs Windows would die overnightSep 10 16:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Nine women rescued from fake Big Brother house in Turkey http://tinyurl.com/lcldxkSep 10 16:38
DaemonFCI didn't say it was a good thing, the customer ends up shelling out hundreds or thousands of extra dollarsSep 10 16:38
schestowitzBest Buy does not instruct the marketSep 10 16:38
DaemonFCthat's why Best Buy is a Microsoft shopSep 10 16:38
twitter1It's not real, DaemonFC.Sep 10 16:38
DaemonFCthat's also why every other store only does MicrosoftSep 10 16:38
twitter1Best Buy is going to eat it.Sep 10 16:38
schestowitz"The women were led to believe they were being filmed for a Big Brother-type television programme, according to the Dogan news agency and other news reports. Instead, their naked images were sold on the internet by their captors."Sep 10 16:38
DaemonFCthe local computer shops won't even touch your system if it has Linux on itSep 10 16:38
schestowitzhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/10/turkey-fake-big-brother-rescueSep 10 16:38
twitter1so will every store that sticks with M$.Sep 10 16:38
DaemonFCLinux is a cancer to those types of businessesSep 10 16:39
twitter1LOL.  local stores are the first to move to gnu/linuxSep 10 16:39
DaemonFCthey lurch back when they even hear the wordSep 10 16:39
*schestowitz waves TrollstickSep 10 16:39
MinceRstrange name for a banhammerSep 10 16:40
DaemonFCschestowitz: Linux would mean millions in lost sales to Best Buy aloneSep 10 16:40
schestowitzThey make money selling what people ask forSep 10 16:40
DaemonFCno they don'tSep 10 16:40
schestowitzAnd if a Linux PC is sold, that's profit to themSep 10 16:40
DaemonFCthey make money telling you what you will buySep 10 16:40
DaemonFCyou have no idea how retail worksSep 10 16:40
schestowitzThere are enough WIndows users to come there from gamez and proggiezzzzSep 10 16:40
twitter1That's ten years ago DaemonFC.  Every local store has people who know gnu/linux now.  Even Best Buy and Office Depot do, as the slide links prove, but those places are under money losing M$ influence and can't take advantage of their skilled staff.Sep 10 16:40
DaemonFCthey get you in there and coerce you into buying things you don't wantSep 10 16:40
schestowitzDaemonFC: I was in computer retailSep 10 16:40
schestowitzTHey do specsSep 10 16:40
DaemonFCit's their job, it's what they doSep 10 16:40
schestowitzThey spec the PCSep 10 16:41
twitter1Even in games, M$ is losing it's ass.Sep 10 16:41
schestowitzThey can do it with Linux just fineSep 10 16:41
twitter1Xbox sucks.Sep 10 16:41
twitter1Vista is even worse.Sep 10 16:41
schestowitzPeople don't come to buy 1 $1000 PC, 3 PS3 games, and 2 printer cartrigesSep 10 16:41
DaemonFCwell, you may not want to hear it, but the customer is not the one in chargeSep 10 16:41
schestowitzIf they want a PC, they get a PC and leaveSep 10 16:41
twitter1Gamers clutch to a 9 year old OS that M$ is trying to kill.Sep 10 16:41
DaemonFCyou can manipulate them into going along with a really bad dealSep 10 16:41
DaemonFCand make twice the money off themSep 10 16:42
schestowitz*CartridgesSep 10 16:42
DaemonFCthey may not even know they were cheatedSep 10 16:42
twitter1New hardware is not going to work with the ancient XP.  Gamers are going to leave Windows behind.  M$ is suicidal and has been for years.Sep 10 16:42
DaemonFCprobably won't ever figure it outSep 10 16:42
schestowitzDaemonFC: can do that with Linux tooSep 10 16:42
DaemonFCthey'll walk right back in and buy more from you laterSep 10 16:42
schestowitzSelll Linux with placebo AV s/wSep 10 16:42
DaemonFCstill not figure outSep 10 16:42
schestowitzTake off the A/V and have a better bergain evenSep 10 16:43
schestowitzBeat the other shopsSep 10 16:43
DaemonFCschestowitz: The antivirus trials subsidize a lot of the PC costSep 10 16:43
DaemonFCthe trialware subsidizes about $60 every PCSep 10 16:43
schestowitzNot helpful to customersSep 10 16:43
schestowitzThey figure it outSep 10 16:43
DaemonFCyou'd probably have to sell the systems at the same price for less profit without thatSep 10 16:44
schestowitzPeople complain about junkwareSep 10 16:44
schestowitzNopeSep 10 16:44
schestowitzSee Dell for exampleSep 10 16:44
DaemonFCyeah, but nobody is willing to pay for it not to come with itSep 10 16:44
DaemonFCyou can pay them an extra $50-60 sometimesSep 10 16:44
*schestowitz got tired of this..Sep 10 16:44
DaemonFCthat's what they were making with the junkwareSep 10 16:44
twitter1We'll just watch how things play out in the market, DaemonFC.  My prediction is based on Vista.  Stores that let themselves get channel stuffed with Windows 7 are going to fail.  Best Buy will suffer.Sep 10 16:44
DaemonFCevery expense has to be made up for somehowSep 10 16:45
DaemonFCif they ditch the junkware, they add $50 onto every systemSep 10 16:45
twitter1The rest of the M$ retail chain will eat it too.Sep 10 16:45
twitter1It's already happened and Windows 7 is more of the same.Sep 10 16:45
DaemonFCeventually, XP won't be available in any caseSep 10 16:45
twitter1You can make up any fairy tail you like.  Vista has already shown what the world is really like.Sep 10 16:46
DaemonFCso the sheep will use Windows 7Sep 10 16:46
twitter1nope.Sep 10 16:46
DaemonFCthey go where they're toldSep 10 16:46
DaemonFCthe retailers are the sheep herders for MicrosoftSep 10 16:46
twitter1People who want to make money will move them on to greener fields than M$ has to offer.Sep 10 16:46
DaemonFCdoubtfulSep 10 16:46
twitter1Vista!Sep 10 16:46
DaemonFCmost of the fallout over Vista went to the MacSep 10 16:46
twitter1ha haSep 10 16:47
twitter1not in the rest of the world.Sep 10 16:47
DaemonFCor back to XPSep 10 16:47
twitter1dead endSep 10 16:47
DaemonFCyou're talking people that can't be educatedSep 10 16:47
MinceRthey're killing xp, no matter whatSep 10 16:47
DaemonFCexcept by what the salesman or the box saysSep 10 16:47
twitter1yes, I see that I'm wasting my time DaemonFC.Sep 10 16:47
twitter1;-)Sep 10 16:47
twitter1bblSep 10 16:48
MinceR:>Sep 10 16:48
DaemonFCwhen you make an ass out of yourself?Sep 10 16:48
DaemonFCyes, very much a waste of effortSep 10 16:48
twitter1you should know all about it.Sep 10 16:48
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DaemonFCpeople would buy Linux systems if that's what the salespeople and the box said to doSep 10 16:50
DaemonFCand the commercials on TVSep 10 16:50
DaemonFCpeople don't really question anything the salespeople, the box, and the TV tell themSep 10 16:50
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DaemonFCword of mouth only helps if someone they trust says it, and even then, not alwaysSep 10 16:52
DaemonFCcorporations have spent years figuring out how to dig at people and convince them they need expensive toys and gadgetsSep 10 16:52
DaemonFCand they're very good at itSep 10 16:52
_Hicham_that is marketingSep 10 16:52
_Hicham_so ur job is convince people to rent furnituresSep 10 16:53
DaemonFCworse than marketingSep 10 16:53
DaemonFCthere are many people that CANNOT function unless they have their cell phoneSep 10 16:53
DaemonFCor a GPS unitSep 10 16:53
DaemonFCpeople forget how to do things without that shitSep 10 16:54
zlgor a pacemakerSep 10 16:54
MinceRyeah, those stupid people growing addicted to their pacemakersSep 10 16:54
DaemonFCyou were laughing at people who used a compass and a map earlierSep 10 16:54
MinceRand wheelchairsSep 10 16:54
DaemonFCthe compass is a dollar, and the map is like $5Sep 10 16:54
DaemonFCa GPS unit is more like $200-$300 plus $60-80 for every map updateSep 10 16:55
DaemonFCthen in 2-3 years, you need a new GPS unitSep 10 16:55
DaemonFCcongratulations, you're a subscriberSep 10 16:55
MinceRwhy do you need a new GPS unit?Sep 10 16:55
DaemonFCnow, they ding you with that, and cell phone billsSep 10 16:55
DaemonFCand text messagesSep 10 16:55
DaemonFCand mobile internetSep 10 16:55
DaemonFCand of course, the Windows-based PC with all the lovely "software as a service"Sep 10 16:56
DaemonFCand before you know it, they all gange rape you for at least a few hundred dollars a month, like clockworkSep 10 16:56
DaemonFC*gangSep 10 16:56
DaemonFCand by the time you realize you can't afford this and you're working too many hours to maintain the extravagance, you've forgotten how to use a map, and there aren't any more pay phonesSep 10 16:57
MinceRmobile phones are such extravaganceSep 10 16:57
DaemonFCand when the battery dies, so does your ability to cope with the world around youSep 10 16:57
DaemonFCpeople are freaking retarded for developing this dependenceSep 10 16:58
DaemonFCit's a problem that goes way beyond MicrosoftSep 10 16:58
DaemonFCin fact, a lot of the evil subscription GPS people use LinuxSep 10 16:59
DaemonFCbecause they don't have to license the software they use to screw you over withSep 10 16:59
DaemonFCthey tinker with it so it only understands their map formatSep 10 16:59
DaemonFCand even a GPL 3 Linux wouldn't stop that because nothing needs to be linked into the kernelSep 10 17:00
DaemonFCyou'd have to have an OS where no undocumented software could run on top of it at allSep 10 17:00
MinceRbut the windows mobile gps people are so much better, because they have to...wait a minute...Sep 10 17:01
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DaemonFCpay exactly the same prices and be precisely as screwed over?Sep 10 17:01
MinceRindeedSep 10 17:01
DaemonFCso there are a number of problems that "free software" can solve in some casesSep 10 17:02
DaemonFCand this really isn't one of themSep 10 17:02
DaemonFCbut they still say it isSep 10 17:02
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DaemonFCTorvalds realizes this and that's why he says that GPL 2 has served him wellSep 10 17:03
DaemonFCit has, it compels people to give him source codeSep 10 17:03
DaemonFCincluding Garmin (makes GPS devices that run on Linux)Sep 10 17:04
zlgall the positioning and timing algorithms for GPS are contained within the chipset's firmware and is proprietary and probably patented, all the I/O and maping and display is what the OEM tack onto to make a product.Sep 10 17:04
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 10 17:05
DaemonFCso how does free software help the user when they can skirt around the license for the code that enables their device to work and make it so you have to damage the device to open it?Sep 10 17:05
DaemonFCLinus Torvalds gets the strictly Linux-related source code patches and that's all the GPL is really doing for anybodySep 10 17:06
zlgthey also burn it into firmware and blow a fuse bit that disables the ability to read the chip, there is no point in damaging anything,Sep 10 17:06
DaemonFCthe GPL worked when devices didn't really exist and everything in the computer was documented commodity hardware and you didn't have to destroy the thing to open it upSep 10 17:06
zlgAll you have access too is the position and time data probably in NMEA formoratSep 10 17:07
DaemonFCso they can't work around the problem by tweaking a license when the license doesn't control the deviceSep 10 17:07
schestowitzWitch Hunt: The Resignation of Van Jones < http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/the-witchhunt-against-van-jones/ > Daemonisation by repugnicantsSep 10 17:08
DaemonFChell, they could comply with the GPL 3 and make the device impossible to open without destroyingSep 10 17:08
zlgGPL code can interfacewith proprietary code,Sep 10 17:08
DaemonFCthat's why I don't get the FSF trying to screw around with devicesSep 10 17:09
DaemonFCthere's really nothing they can do to prevent exploitation of usersSep 10 17:09
schestowitzuser's choiceSep 10 17:11
zlgthat speaks to the definition of hardware, software and firmware, with PLD, GPLD's, you can create software algorithms in hardware, or CPU's and hardware in software.Sep 10 17:11
schestowitz"Lubna Hussein, convicted in Sudan for wearing trousers, has refused to pay her fine. She'll now go to jail as a result" < http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/sep/08/lubna-hussein-trousers-sudan >Sep 10 17:11
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schestowitzhttp://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS234087+09-Sep-2009+BW20090909 (NEC Electronics and Wind River Expand Collaboration on Linux Solutions for Portable Audio/Visual Devices Market)Sep 10 17:21
schestowitzAnother Microsoft-y site which runs all LAMP. http://www.xconomy.com/national/2009/09/09/calling-all-wordpressphpapachelinux-gurus-particularly-the-ones-with-pagers/Sep 10 17:23
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_Hicham_I run only ASP websitesSep 10 17:30
_Hicham_Mono poweredSep 10 17:30
_Hicham_Mono powers ASP on LinuxSep 10 17:30
schestowitzHaha. Typical: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/035550.htmlSep 10 17:32
schestowitz_Hicham_: reversal again?Sep 10 17:33
schestowitzThey always describe it as "Linux geeks"Sep 10 17:33
schestowitzAs if all Linux users must be geeksSep 10 17:33
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schestowitzThat's the Microsoft brainwashSep 10 17:33
schestowitzThat all users of Linux must be "geeks"Sep 10 17:33
DaemonFCGentoo helps that impression btwSep 10 17:34
_Hicham_did u ever install Gentoo?Sep 10 17:34
DaemonFCyeah, it's such a nightmare to maintain thoughSep 10 17:34
DaemonFCI gave up on it fairly quicklySep 10 17:35
schestowitzGentoo is not "Linux"Sep 10 17:35
schestowitzIt's GentooSep 10 17:35
_Hicham_DaemonFC : here is Ubuntu Community Manager with usSep 10 17:35
_Hicham_DaemonFC : ask him ur great questionsSep 10 17:35
DaemonFCahem.....as politely and nonchalantly, and as eloquently as I can say itSep 10 17:35
DaemonFC"Get it FIXED!!!!"Sep 10 17:35
DaemonFCheheSep 10 17:35
schestowitzMicrosoft execs also sell the impression in interviews that if you're not a geek, then you can't use Ubuntu for exampleSep 10 17:36
_Hicham_what should be fixed ?Sep 10 17:36
schestowitzThe same old slursSep 10 17:36
DaemonFC_Hicham_: I'm just jokingSep 10 17:36
DaemonFCKarmic is already better than Jaunty thoughSep 10 17:36
DaemonFCJaunty had to be their worst release everSep 10 17:36
_Hicham_DaemonFC : jono is Ubuntu Community ManagerSep 10 17:36
schestowitzhub is back http://www.figuiere.net/hub/blog/?2009/09/09/684-empty-chairs-on-the-lakeSep 10 17:36
DaemonFCJaunty broke pretty much every piece of hardware I haveSep 10 17:37
trmancoDaemonFC: Gusty wasSep 10 17:37
trmancoyour hardware broke JauntySep 10 17:37
DaemonFCnopeSep 10 17:37
DaemonFCcan't blame this on anything proprietary whatsoeverSep 10 17:37
DaemonFCbuilding a new kernel fixed most of thatSep 10 17:38
schestowitzGutsy Gibbon is a good release name for MonoSep 10 17:38
trmancowhy?Sep 10 17:38
trmancowhat did you do to the config?Sep 10 17:38
DaemonFCthe reason I complained about it is that Ubuntu's whole reason for being is that you shouldn't *have* to compile thingsSep 10 17:38
trmancoyes that's the logicSep 10 17:39
DaemonFCwell, it's the truthSep 10 17:39
DaemonFCthey have so many things to hold your handSep 10 17:39
DaemonFCand no compiler or proper build tools includedSep 10 17:39
DaemonFCso the message is that they don't expect you to have to use themSep 10 17:39
schestowitzKlantigt Debian bakom OpenSSL-buggen http://opensource.idg.se/2.1014/1.161463/klantigt-debian-bakom-openssl-buggenSep 10 17:39
schestowitzGoogle News bumps old newsSep 10 17:40
DaemonFCin fact, you have to remove some things or else Ubuntu will break any kernel you compile anywaySep 10 17:40
DaemonFCnvidia-common is one of those thingsSep 10 17:40
DaemonFCso if they make the environment so hostile towards compiling your own kernel and tell you that truly anyone should be able to use the one they provide, they should take care to make sure it doesn't break anything that Linux has supported natively for yearsSep 10 17:42
DaemonFCthat most PCs haveSep 10 17:42
DaemonFCnot say "We give up" when there's still 3 months of alpha testing to go and patches to fix the problemsSep 10 17:43
DaemonFCat that point they shouldn't have even been using a 2.6.28 kernel anywaySep 10 17:44
DaemonFCand there was a new version of Pulseaudio out that fixed the really obvious sound glitchingSep 10 17:44
_Hicham_That's the fixed cycle releaseSep 10 17:45
DaemonFC2.6.29 was much more friendly towards wifi and had tons of cleanup to their Intel high definition audio driversSep 10 17:45
_Hicham_there must must a feature freezeSep 10 17:46
DaemonFCand it should have been pushed into Ubuntu regardlessSep 10 17:46
_Hicham_noSep 10 17:46
_Hicham_no major updatesSep 10 17:46
_Hicham_only security onesSep 10 17:46
DaemonFCwhy? They knew they had screwed the pooch alreadySep 10 17:46
_Hicham_even if that means staying unstableSep 10 17:46
DaemonFCwhat more could they have broken?Sep 10 17:46
_Hicham_that is their policySep 10 17:47
DaemonFCUbuntu 9.04 Pompous PoochscrewSep 10 17:47
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 17:47
DaemonFCin fact, it was largely 8.10 and 9.04 that compelled me to lampoon Ubuntu in UncyclopediaSep 10 17:49
_Hicham_DaemonFC : Jaunty is a good releaseSep 10 17:50
MinceRnot nearly as good as HardySep 10 17:50
_Hicham_MinceR : at least MinceR likes sthgSep 10 17:51
DaemonFCmaybe hardy after the first thousand bug fixesSep 10 17:52
MinceRi know. i know MinceR very well. ;)Sep 10 17:52
MinceRintrepid and jaunty are a mess.Sep 10 17:53
DaemonFCI still have Hardy on my laptop just because of that damned ATI chipsetSep 10 17:53
DaemonFChoping that the open source driver will be of some use to me by the time Hardy is EOL'dSep 10 17:53
_Hicham_DaemonFC : is it a legacy chipset ?Sep 10 17:53
DaemonFCRadeon 200mSep 10 17:54
DaemonFCyeah, "legacy"Sep 10 17:54
_Hicham_isn't recognized by open source radeon driver ?Sep 10 17:54
DaemonFCthose stupid ***********************************s at ATISep 10 17:54
DaemonFCabandone cards that are 3 years oldSep 10 17:54
DaemonFCNvidia supports all theirs clear back to 1998Sep 10 17:54
DaemonFC*abandonSep 10 17:54
_Hicham_maybe this chipset supports KMSSep 10 17:55
DaemonFC_Hicham_: It kind of sort of isSep 10 17:55
DaemonFCdoesn't work as well as FGLRXSep 10 17:55
_Hicham_for games?Sep 10 17:55
DaemonFCso I decided to wait til Hardy is dropped and I have no choice but to use the free driverSep 10 17:55
DaemonFCso we'll see where it is thenSep 10 17:55
schestowitzhttp://www.startribune.com/business/57780787.html?elr=KArksc8P:Pc:UthPacyPE7iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUSep 10 17:55
schestowitz"No, the Windows 7 option called "XP Mode" can't provide you with a full-screen view of an old DOS program." http://www.startribune.com/business/57780787.html?elr=KArksc8P:Pc:UthPacyPE7iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUSep 10 17:56
_Hicham_if u want intensive 3D gaming, radeon will be of no use (almost)Sep 10 17:56
DaemonFCschestowitz: WDDM dropped support for full screen DOS appsSep 10 17:56
_Hicham_but other than that, the graphics experience with KMS is greatSep 10 17:56
DaemonFCbut 64-bit Windows can't run any DOS apps anywaySep 10 17:56
DaemonFCyou should really be using DOSboxSep 10 17:56
DaemonFCyou can get fullscreen DOS app support by using Windows XP display drivers on VistaSep 10 17:57
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DaemonFCbut then you lose DirectX 10.x supportSep 10 17:57
DaemonFCand can't play Blu Rays in HDSep 10 17:58
DaemonFCthey'll all revert to 576pSep 10 17:58
DaemonFCeven if they don't use the constraint tokenSep 10 17:58
MinceRi thought ati's plan was that once they abandon cards, they'll already be supported by one of the free driversSep 10 17:58
DaemonFCMinceR: Depends on how you define supportSep 10 17:59
DaemonFCATI has always been sketchy about thatSep 10 17:59
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 17:59
MinceR:)Sep 10 17:59
MinceRi meant access to all features of the cardSep 10 17:59
MinceRincluding 3d accelerationSep 10 17:59
DaemonFCWe "support" Windows Vista (If you use our XP driver that was last updated in 2005)Sep 10 17:59
DaemonFCWe "support" Linux through the open source Radeon driver (2d only)Sep 10 18:00
DaemonFCATI is pure dog shitSep 10 18:00
_Hicham_ATI is helping open sourceSep 10 18:00
DaemonFCWe "support" you all the way (to 800 x 600)Sep 10 18:00
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DaemonFCto hell with them and their shitty GPusSep 10 18:00
_Hicham_by providing Specs to developersSep 10 18:00
DaemonFCsome specs, no code, and don't call us if you have a problemSep 10 18:01
DaemonFCsounds geewhizbang goodSep 10 18:01
DaemonFCyeah sure youbetchaSep 10 18:01
_Hicham_better than reverse engineer completelySep 10 18:03
DaemonFCNvidia support on the other hand, will provide you with help even if they no longer make the card, even if it's been out of warranty for yearsSep 10 18:03
_Hicham_change ur laptop card thenSep 10 18:03
DaemonFCso I'll keep buying from the company that stands behind the product, not the one that plays games and pawns off their responsibilities to the customerSep 10 18:03
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9137659/Image_gallery_6_easy_laptop_repairsSep 10 18:04
DaemonFCif ATI had actually forked over anything particularly useful, the open source driver would have been working at least as well as theirs on day 1Sep 10 18:04
DaemonFCnot still shaky support for *some* cards years laterSep 10 18:04
DaemonFCPR moveSep 10 18:04
DaemonFCa real GPU manufacturer forking over real code is yet to be seenSep 10 18:06
DaemonFCyou can cite Intel, but that's like saying their boards have onboard audio so a sound card maker is supporting LinuxSep 10 18:06
DaemonFCand an onboard NIC, so networking card maker is supporting Linux tooSep 10 18:07
DaemonFCthey really aren't competing in the market that Nvidia and ATI areSep 10 18:07
DaemonFCtheir onboard video is basic and maybe just good enough to run Aero, Compiz, and some 5 year old gamesSep 10 18:07
DaemonFCthey want it to work for everyone and they aren't worried about trade secrets being snagged by their competitorsSep 10 18:08
schestowitzhttp://mono-nono.com/2009/09/10/mono-and-net/Sep 10 18:09
DaemonFCit's kind of a shame that selecting KDE on Mandriva brings 90% of GNOME in anywaySep 10 18:12
DaemonFCyou may as well jsut pick bothSep 10 18:12
DaemonFCGNOME only install is about 2.8 gigs, a KDE only install is about 10 gigsSep 10 18:13
DaemonFCboth install in about 11 gigsSep 10 18:13
DaemonFCthey need to pitch their KDE version as the best GNOME desktop anywhereSep 10 18:14
DaemonFCit's not really surprising that they have to bring in most of GNOME to make KDE work thoughSep 10 18:14
DaemonFCthey already have to bring in most of it just to give you legal codecs, Firefox, and Cheese webcam supportSep 10 18:15
_Hicham_DaemonFC : and the Control CenterSep 10 18:18
_Hicham_don't forget thatSep 10 18:18
DaemonFCthe control center uses QT and WebkitSep 10 18:18
_Hicham_Mandriva Control Center uses perl::Gtk2Sep 10 18:19
DaemonFCMandriva is really becoming a great GNOME desktop, but all of that is coming at the expense of KDESep 10 18:19
_Hicham_Mandriva engineers are perl::Gtk2 mastersSep 10 18:19
_Hicham_they have been picking up KDE because it has a lot of toolsSep 10 18:20
_Hicham_I like Mandriva GNOME editionSep 10 18:21
DaemonFCwell, traditionally their KDE desktop was far better than GNOMESep 10 18:21
_Hicham_the only one that supports my modemSep 10 18:21
DaemonFCbut that's changedSep 10 18:21
_Hicham_no other distro supports my modemSep 10 18:21
DaemonFCwho still uses those?Sep 10 18:21
_Hicham_uses what ?Sep 10 18:22
DaemonFCdial up modems?Sep 10 18:22
schestowitzNot spoiled kidsSep 10 18:22
_Hicham_it is not dial up modemSep 10 18:22
DaemonFCDSL is the same priceSep 10 18:22
schestowitz_Hicham_: from Ryan's POV, if you are not American, you're retardedSep 10 18:22
DaemonFCas dial upSep 10 18:22
DaemonFCCable isn't that much moreSep 10 18:22
_Hicham_who is talking about dialupSep 10 18:22
_Hicham_I am talking about USB ADSL ModemsSep 10 18:23
DaemonFChehSep 10 18:23
DaemonFCthat tooSep 10 18:23
DaemonFChook it up through the ethernet portSep 10 18:23
_Hicham_not all people are willing to spend $40 for a routerSep 10 18:23
_Hicham_since u got the modem forciblySep 10 18:24
DaemonFCwhy would you need a router?Sep 10 18:24
DaemonFCI've never seen any DSL or Cable modem that didn't have an ethernet portSep 10 18:24
DaemonFCsome have USB as wellSep 10 18:24
_Hicham_those are modem-routersSep 10 18:24
DaemonFCno they aren'tSep 10 18:24
DaemonFCif it has one or the other, it has ethernetSep 10 18:25
DaemonFCmost ISPs limit the firmware anyway so you can only use one port or the other even if it has bothSep 10 18:25
DaemonFCthey're trying to upsell you to a modem that has a built in wireless routerSep 10 18:26
DaemonFCin case you aren't following meSep 10 18:26
DaemonFCyou don't have to get one, but then you end up spaghetti cabling a modem *and* a routerSep 10 18:27
DaemonFCthe price of buying a modem lets you rent one off your ISP for a couple of years at the same priceSep 10 18:29
DaemonFCand if it breaks or becomes obsolete, and you own it, you have to go get a new oneSep 10 18:29
DaemonFCmost stores don't even sell them because they aren't worth buyingSep 10 18:29
DaemonFC_Hicham_: If yours doesn't have an ethernet port, it's an oddballSep 10 18:31
_Hicham_that is the modem i am talking about : http://support.sagem-communications.com/site/modele_fax.php?page=produit&numero_type=9&produit=141Sep 10 18:31
DaemonFCprobably some no name manufacturer got cheap on youSep 10 18:31
DaemonFCI'd really hate for USB only modems to become the normSep 10 18:31
DaemonFCwould probably mean 2-3 years of Linux having spotty modem supportSep 10 18:31
_Hicham_I paid about $25 for itSep 10 18:32
DaemonFChmmmSep 10 18:32
_Hicham_a modem-router is $35Sep 10 18:32
DaemonFCI've never seen them that cheapSep 10 18:32
schestowitzLinux is ahead of the pack in USBSep 10 18:32
DaemonFCcourse I haven't looked in a whileSep 10 18:32
_Hicham_but i was forced to take that oneSep 10 18:32
schestowitzFirst to support USB3Sep 10 18:33
DaemonFCUSB, yeahSep 10 18:33
DaemonFCnot USB devicesSep 10 18:33
_Hicham_it was not with this modemsSep 10 18:33
schestowitzdependsSep 10 18:33
DaemonFChaving support for the USB standard and not the device you're trying to use helps a lot :PSep 10 18:33
_Hicham_It took me about 6 months to make it work with LinuxSep 10 18:33
schestowitzchoose wiselySep 10 18:33
DaemonFCI could get that with Windows XP x64 Edition :DSep 10 18:33
DaemonFCI wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft started leaning on broadband modem makers to go USB onlySep 10 18:34
DaemonFCwould probably deal a serious blow to LinuxSep 10 18:34
DaemonFCone where you could only use Windows with your cable modem for yearsSep 10 18:35
DaemonFCwould be the return of the 56k WinmodemSep 10 18:35
MinceRsoho router makers would start attacking m$ thenSep 10 18:36
DaemonFCMinceR: Remember the Winmodem?Sep 10 18:37
DaemonFCmillions of them spanning thousands of modelsSep 10 18:37
MinceRi doSep 10 18:37
DaemonFCand only like 3-4 models were supported in Linux because some Linux developer had one and got boredSep 10 18:37
MinceRi still have my real modemsSep 10 18:37
MinceRi don't use them though :>Sep 10 18:38
DaemonFCI have one in this system, never used it thoughSep 10 18:38
DaemonFClots of PC makers don't even put one in anymoreSep 10 18:38
DaemonFCMacs don't have them unless you buy the external USB oneSep 10 18:39
Omar871Hi there.Sep 10 18:39
MinceRi have winmodems in both of my laptopsSep 10 18:39
MinceR(well, most likely winmodems. never tried to use them.)Sep 10 18:39
DaemonFCif it's a Conexant, it's a WinmodemSep 10 18:39
DaemonFCthere's some binary driver modules for LinuxSep 10 18:40
DaemonFCthe freeware one is limited to 14.4 kbpsSep 10 18:40
DaemonFCyou have to buy the 56.6 kbps one thoughSep 10 18:40
MinceRpftSep 10 18:40
MinceRconexant sucksSep 10 18:40
MinceRthey killed the bt878, tooSep 10 18:40
DaemonFCif you need to send a fax, the freeware module is good enoughSep 10 18:40
DaemonFCI may file a bug report on Banshee and ask Mandriva to apply the Last FM patch themselvesSep 10 18:41
schestowitzwtf??Sep 10 18:42
schestowitzMicrosoft Launches Open Source Foundation http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/Microsoft-Launches-Open-Source-Foundation-431416/?kc=deicazaisalamerSep 10 18:42
_Hicham_DaemonFC : are u using Mandriva ?Sep 10 18:44
DaemonFC:DSep 10 18:44
schestowitzGEEZ! That's a bad headline. Thanks!Sep 10 18:44
schestowitzSee the above ladsSep 10 18:44
schestowitzMiguel is joining MicrosoftSep 10 18:45
_Hicham_CodePlex rocksSep 10 18:45
schestowitzI'll do a postSep 10 18:45
_Hicham_only MS softwareSep 10 18:45
_Hicham_only MS technologySep 10 18:45
_Hicham_can I get visual studio for free ? yes, sir, as long as u use our technolgySep 10 18:45
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_Hicham_that is why we see a lot of open source projects using MSVC+MFCSep 10 18:46
_Hicham_example : 7zipSep 10 18:46
trmanco7zip?Sep 10 18:48
_Hicham_yes, that why its unix port took a whilSep 10 18:49
_Hicham_*whileSep 10 18:49
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 10 18:50
DaemonFCI filed a bug on itSep 10 18:55
DaemonFC:PSep 10 18:55
DaemonFCsee, if something pisses me off enough I'll file a bugSep 10 18:55
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Miguel de Icaza Joins #Microsoft http://bit.ly/VuAirSep 10 19:11
schestowitzbblSep 10 19:13
trmancobut 7zip works under linuxSep 10 19:19
trmancothe library that actually compresses files existsSep 10 19:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post - Help Required With KDE Basket http://tinyurl.com/kkt8ucSep 10 19:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Aussie financial firms dump Unix, Windows for Linux on the mainframe: http://is.gd/37lySSep 10 20:01
trmancoAussie financial firms dump Unix, Windows for Linux on the mainframe: http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci1367755,00.html?track=sy185Sep 10 20:01
trmancoahSep 10 20:01
trmancothere it isSep 10 20:01
*Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-66-71.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 10 20:20
DaemonFCOpenSuse 11.2 M7 is outSep 10 20:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft: Yep, we teach Best Buy to trash Linux: http://is.gd/37o2wSep 10 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] today i did user testing at canonical. can't say what, but it's way cool and coming in october. got a bag of ubuntu merch. f has a new hat!Sep 10 20:31
DaemonFCIs it brown and brown and brown all over?Sep 10 20:33
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 20:33
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sebsebsebhiSep 10 20:33
trmancohelloSep 10 20:36
DaemonFCOpenSuse is shortening the support lifetime from 24 months to 18 monthsSep 10 20:37
sebsebsebDaemonFC: OpenSuse no thanks,  with  it's  weird menu  in GnomeSep 10 20:37
DaemonFCsebsebseb: That menu is available on any distributionSep 10 20:38
DaemonFCit's called gnome-main-menuSep 10 20:38
DaemonFCyou can use the Applications/Places/System menu in OpenSuse thoughSep 10 20:38
cubezzzwait a sec, isn't Miguel de Icaza the gnome guy?Sep 10 20:38
sebsebseblast time I tried OpenSuse in a vm,  it still had  weird menu or whatever it wasSep 10 20:38
DaemonFCsebsebseb: Just remove that one and add the default oneSep 10 20:38
cubezzzhow could he be a microsoft guy?Sep 10 20:38
DaemonFCit's not difficultSep 10 20:38
sebsebsebDaemonFC: anyway I thought this channal was basically an anti Novell channal,  and OpenSuse is linked to Novell as wellSep 10 20:39
DaemonFCthe SLAB menu saves some screen real estate by not requiring two panelsSep 10 20:39
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wallclimberI just finished reading the BN post about OIN and the SGI patents it purchased. I found it all to be quite confusing, in that some sources that were referenced seemed to indicate that OIN itself may have sinister, ulterior motives for collecting patents. I understand why software patents, themselves, are sinister...but what has OIN done to cause anyone to think they may become as bad as the trSep 10 20:41
wallclimberolls?  Did I misunderstand the BN post?Sep 10 20:41
DaemonFCsebsebseb: Novell is not profitable anywaySep 10 20:43
sebsebsebDaemonFC: no?Sep 10 20:44
DaemonFCtheir expenses have been exceeding their income latelySep 10 20:44
DaemonFCthey laid off a bunch of employees over the last 2 yearsSep 10 20:45
DaemonFCthey're not in big trouble yetSep 10 20:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Linux Foundation to #Microsoft: stop secretly attacking #Linux : http://is.gd/37qbLSep 10 20:47
DaemonFCI believe Suse is also the only distribution which provides legal MP3 encoding for freeSep 10 20:47
DaemonFCBanshee-Helix gets the licensed encoder from RealSep 10 20:47
Diablo-D3damnitSep 10 20:56
Diablo-D3I want radeonhd to work so badlySep 10 20:56
cubezzzmicrosoft training best buy to slam linux is bad but...Sep 10 20:56
cubezzzit's so ridiculousSep 10 20:56
Diablo-D3anyone here try it yet?Sep 10 20:57
Diablo-D3its so fucking fastSep 10 20:57
cubezzzthat and FOSS drivers would be pretty good :)Sep 10 20:58
cubezzzDiablo-D3, no linux drivers then?Sep 10 20:59
DaemonFCLast FM has basically trashed 3rd party player supportSep 10 20:59
trmancoYahoo shares lifted by analyst's upgrade: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/yahoo-shares-lifted-by-upgrade-2009-09-10?siteid=rss&rss=1Sep 10 20:59
DaemonFCtheir new API is so fucked up and slow that Banshee can't even sign in and Rhythmbox takes like 10 seconds to start playing any songSep 10 20:59
Diablo-D3cubezzz: radeonhd is the replacement for new cards under fglrxSep 10 21:00
Diablo-D3I tried it the other day againSep 10 21:00
Diablo-D3zooooooooooomjSep 10 21:00
DaemonFCschestowitz: Spotify finally caught onto meSep 10 21:01
DaemonFCrealized that I had signed up with an open proxy server in the UK and banned my accountSep 10 21:01
cubezzzI'll throw this out just for interest's sake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSSSep 10 21:01
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trmancoanybody here use energy saving light bulbs?Sep 10 21:02
MinceRi doSep 10 21:03
MinceRthe main light and the light behind the monitors are CFLs, the keyboard lighting is a USB LEDSep 10 21:03
MinceRbut there are some incandescent bulbs in my flatSep 10 21:03
trmancocoolSep 10 21:04
MinceR(the first line was about my room)Sep 10 21:04
trmancoI'm impressed with these light bulbsSep 10 21:04
MinceRtheir spectrum isn't always friendlySep 10 21:04
MinceRespecially the LED is kind of vile... but it works for what i'm using itSep 10 21:04
MinceRand the CFL is kind of noisy, but it doesn't bother me that much, usually a computer is on and is louder.Sep 10 21:05
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MinceR(it took me a long time to find such a low-power CFL to light the wall behind the monitors :) )Sep 10 21:05
cubezzz2ughSep 10 21:05
trmancoCFLSep 10 21:05
trmanco?Sep 10 21:05
MinceRcompact flurescent lightSep 10 21:06
trmancoyaSep 10 21:06
trmancofound it on wikiSep 10 21:06
cubezzz2Canadian Football? :)Sep 10 21:06
MinceRi wonder if those big LED bulbs have a good spectrumSep 10 21:06
DaemonFCWhat's a good Last FM replacement?Sep 10 21:07
Diablo-D3there isnt oneSep 10 21:07
Diablo-D3and last.fm kind of suckedSep 10 21:07
*MinceR has always been too paranoid to use last.fmSep 10 21:07
DaemonFCSpotify is better but they don't allow people in the US to listenSep 10 21:07
DaemonFCso I have to create a new account every time they find outSep 10 21:08
MinceRnone of your base are belong to USSep 10 21:08
DaemonFCthat takes about a week or two on every account I createSep 10 21:08
*cubezzz has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 10 21:08
*cubezzz2 is now known as cubezzSep 10 21:08
*cubezz is now known as cubezzzSep 10 21:09
DaemonFCthe music cartel in Europe won't license the music for streaming to the United States because our cartel doesn't like competing with their front group in EuropeSep 10 21:09
DaemonFCeven though our cartel licensed it to their cartelSep 10 21:10
DaemonFCB-)Sep 10 21:10
MinceRanother case for piracy!Sep 10 21:10
wallclimberwhat is the benefit of online radio?Sep 10 21:10
DaemonFCgives me ideas for what to take off DemonoidSep 10 21:10
wallclimberwhy not just use your own music collection?Sep 10 21:10
DaemonFCwhoopsSep 10 21:10
DaemonFCyou didn't hear thatSep 10 21:10
MinceR:DSep 10 21:11
wallclimberi heard thatSep 10 21:11
MinceRwhoops, it was publicly loggedSep 10 21:11
MinceR:>Sep 10 21:11
*DaemonFC shoots wallclimber Sep 10 21:11
DaemonFCno, you didn'tSep 10 21:11
DaemonFC:PSep 10 21:11
twitteronline radio helps you build your collection.Sep 10 21:11
cubezzzoopsie :)Sep 10 21:11
*DaemonFC shoots the logging botSep 10 21:11
DaemonFCit didn't eitherSep 10 21:11
wallclimberwallclimber is silenced foreverSep 10 21:11
*MinceR shoots DaemonFC Sep 10 21:11
trmancolibre.fmSep 10 21:11
MinceRnow you have nothing to worry about anymore!Sep 10 21:11
wallclimberi love shoot outsSep 10 21:11
cubezzzno fighting in the war room!Sep 10 21:11
MinceR:DSep 10 21:12
*DaemonFC dodges the bulletSep 10 21:12
*DaemonFC is the chosen oneSep 10 21:12
MinceRAnimaniacs ftwSep 10 21:12
twitterhmmm, I still have FC blocked on this client.Sep 10 21:12
trmancothe article about CFL's on wikipedia is really completeSep 10 21:12
*MinceR turns the bullet into a seeking one and turns it around.Sep 10 21:12
*DaemonFC gets in front of Mincer and dodges the bullet as it comes backSep 10 21:12
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 21:12
wallclimberwe're using water guns, right?Sep 10 21:12
DaemonFCmmmmm, sureSep 10 21:12
*MinceR bounces the bullet off, right at DaemonFC Sep 10 21:12
twitteronline radio is like listening to someone else's collection.  that can be nice and everyone should be able to run one.Sep 10 21:12
wallclimberi have a wonderful collection of musicSep 10 21:13
twitterM$ people squirt all sorts of things.  They aim to damage.Sep 10 21:13
DaemonFCI finally gave up lugging around a FLAC collectionSep 10 21:13
twitterit would be nice if you could share that collection.Sep 10 21:13
wallclimberit would be fun to share it, but i don't want to get suedSep 10 21:13
twitterin the US, you will lose everything and then some.Sep 10 21:13
MinceRDaemonFC: how big was it?Sep 10 21:14
twitterthere's a constitutional issue there.Sep 10 21:14
DaemonFCMinceR: When I converted it all to Vorbis and deleted the FLACs?Sep 10 21:14
MinceRno, when it was all FLACsSep 10 21:14
wallclimberi started buying music with my first allowance money when i was 9 years old...bought an Elvis recordSep 10 21:14
DaemonFCthe FLACs were about 800 gigabytesSep 10 21:14
DaemonFCthat become about 90 gigabytes of VorbisSep 10 21:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft Windows is a family of operating systems designed to drive you to madness.: http://is.gd/37sGKSep 10 21:15
MinceRwell, 2 portable HDDs would hold all the FLACs and have space left over :>Sep 10 21:15
wallclimberaround here we've spent years, lieterally years, digitizing our music.  We even still have some 8-track tapes in the storeroomSep 10 21:15
DaemonFCyeah, it just sucks trying to keep a FLAC collection when you can store 10 times as many in VorbisSep 10 21:15
wallclimberstill have nearly 1000 LPs that need to be copiedSep 10 21:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] He's been shilling for MSFT/NOVL for years. Screw him.RT: @schestowitz: Miguel de Icaza Joins #Microsoft http://bit.ly/VuAirSep 10 21:16
DaemonFCVorbis Quality 5 is pretty damned goodSep 10 21:16
DaemonFCaverages 160 kbpsSep 10 21:16
DaemonFCstill sounds as good as a 320 kbps MP3Sep 10 21:16
wallclimberunfortunately, we didn't understand about lossy formats when we first started thisSep 10 21:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] oracle says they'll spend more on solaris and sparc http://www.oracle.com/features/suncustomers.html hmm, we'll seeSep 10 21:17
DaemonFCwallclimber: If you have to use only lossy, go for AAC or VorbisSep 10 21:17
DaemonFCmore bang for the buck than MP3Sep 10 21:17
wallclimberyes, we do nowSep 10 21:17
wallclimberbut those early years we did mp3Sep 10 21:18
wallclimberdidn't know any betterSep 10 21:18
DaemonFCwallclimber: Nero AAC is pretty goodSep 10 21:18
DaemonFCthe main reason I switched to Vorbis is that it is slightly better yet and I don't have to use Windows programs in Wine to encode it :)Sep 10 21:18
DaemonFCthere's a Nero AAC encoder for Linux, but no GUI front ends for itSep 10 21:19
MinceRi thought you said AAC was betterSep 10 21:19
cubezzzinteresting to note early windows wasn't even stand-aloneSep 10 21:19
DaemonFCMinceR: Depends on which AAC profile you useSep 10 21:19
DaemonFCNero won't let you use HE-AAC above ~80 kbpsSep 10 21:19
DaemonFCand the Coding Technologies encoder will go up to 256 kbps but you lsoe VBR supportSep 10 21:20
cubezzzXerox really really screwed upSep 10 21:20
DaemonFC*loseSep 10 21:20
DaemonFCif you're going below 96 kbps, you should use HE-AACSep 10 21:20
Diablo-D3well, v2 if you canSep 10 21:21
DaemonFCSBR + PS helps a lot, but it still can't match a 128kbps Vorbis fileSep 10 21:21
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: wellSep 10 21:21
Diablo-D3its like thisSep 10 21:21
Diablo-D3if you're streamingSep 10 21:21
Diablo-D3use he-aac v2Sep 10 21:21
DaemonFCthe main reason for HEv2 is to get really really tiny files that sound "OK"Sep 10 21:21
Diablo-D3if you're encoding for high quality archival, use normal AACSep 10 21:21
Diablo-D3or flacSep 10 21:21
*Diablo-D3 flacs everythingSep 10 21:22
DaemonFCwell, they headed off Ogg Vorbis by not charging royalties to stream AACSep 10 21:22
Diablo-D3royalites dont work anyhowSep 10 21:22
Diablo-D3just go after hardware manufacturers and leave everyone else aloneSep 10 21:23
DaemonFCso now they can say that you get half the bandwidth used and almost as good resultsSep 10 21:23
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: That's typically been their strategySep 10 21:23
Diablo-D3its the only strat that worksSep 10 21:23
DaemonFCit's legal to use MP3 to make a "personal music library"Sep 10 21:23
Diablo-D3going after individuals pisses your entire fanbase offSep 10 21:23
DaemonFCwithout paying royaltiesSep 10 21:23
twitterLOL.  A privacy tool for facebook that gives you keys and stores the data for you! -> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/09/09/1931211/Cryptographic-Tools-To-Keep-You-Hidden-On-FacebookSep 10 21:23
MinceRDiablo-D3: there isn't just streaming and high-quality archival :>Sep 10 21:24
twitterTrust us with your dirty laundry please.  Tools like that highlight the folly of "Cloud computing"Sep 10 21:24
Diablo-D3MinceR: there basically isSep 10 21:24
Diablo-D3MinceR: either you want to retain full quality or you want to stream itSep 10 21:24
DaemonFCI chose Vorbis q5 because it lets me make a library that I can stand listening to on my PC and doesn't overwhelm the portableSep 10 21:25
wallclimberargh...facebook.  i finally had to join to keep the grandkids happy...it seems the only place they'll post pictures anymore is on facebook...i hate itSep 10 21:25
Diablo-D3MinceR: obviously some platforms suck and cant do flac, but most of them have some alternativeSep 10 21:25
wallclimberthen they nag because i won't sign up (finally did this weekend tho)Sep 10 21:25
MinceRDiablo-D3: or you need to fit a lot of music on a small flash storage device :>Sep 10 21:25
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: FLAC is well supported on all operating systemsSep 10 21:25
Diablo-D3MinceR: thats typically a streaming solution imoSep 10 21:25
DaemonFCeven Windows users use itSep 10 21:25
Diablo-D3MinceR: you have very little space but need to maximize the qualitySep 10 21:25
MinceRDiablo-D3: but you have a total size limit instead of a bitrate limitSep 10 21:26
Diablo-D3MinceR: nope, it really is a bitrate limitSep 10 21:26
wallclimberstorage space for music is a top priority here. every time i get some extra money i buy more drivesSep 10 21:27
MinceRDiablo-D3: nope, it really isn'tSep 10 21:27
Diablo-D3MinceR: yeah, it really is, you're just conceptualizing it wrongSep 10 21:27
Diablo-D3MinceR: bandwidth is a function of time.Sep 10 21:27
MinceR(unless your decoder is limiting you by processing power)Sep 10 21:27
MinceRDiablo-D3: have you ever heard of VBR? :>Sep 10 21:27
Diablo-D3MinceR: have you heard that streaming uses VBR effectively?Sep 10 21:27
twitterGet your gradkids to run their own webserver.  Any GNU/Linux distro will do.  Then they can really share their pictures.Sep 10 21:28
wallclimberhas anyone else digitized old LPs?Sep 10 21:28
twitterYes.Sep 10 21:28
twitterall of mineSep 10 21:29
twitterworked out OK.Sep 10 21:29
Diablo-D3MinceR: its a bandwidth limitation on small devices because you _still_ need to maximize what you haveSep 10 21:29
twitternot as good as CDsSep 10 21:29
wallclimberwe have a Numark turntable with usb, and it works ok, but not as well as we'd likeSep 10 21:29
Diablo-D3MinceR: since total space is not a function of the length of time of the musicSep 10 21:29
Diablo-D3MinceR: ergo, you need as much quality in as few bits as possibleSep 10 21:29
Diablo-D3MinceR: its the same exact problem.Sep 10 21:29
twitterone of those commercial things that only saves to a "music" CD that costs $1 each?Sep 10 21:29
MinceRDiablo-D3: in the case of streaming, the maximum bandwidth matters because your listeners might have limited pipeSep 10 21:29
twitterhate them.Sep 10 21:29
Diablo-D3MinceR: but you still have a limited pipeSep 10 21:30
Diablo-D3MinceR: you have x bits once instead of x bits per secondSep 10 21:30
MinceRDiablo-D3: in the case of small storage, it doesn't matter because they aren't going to max out the bandwidth of the flash card.Sep 10 21:30
Diablo-D3MinceR: no, you're thinking of the problem wrongSep 10 21:30
MinceRDiablo-D3: exactly, which isn't the same.Sep 10 21:30
twitterhook your normal stereo into your computer.  it's a little more work but the results are better.Sep 10 21:30
MinceRDiablo-D3: no, you are.Sep 10 21:30
wallclimberno, it's a turntable that plugs into the computer by usb, and records directly into the computerSep 10 21:30
Diablo-D3no, I'm thinking about it the right waySep 10 21:30
Diablo-D3wallclimber: those usually suck btwSep 10 21:30
twitterso, what's the problem?Sep 10 21:31
Diablo-D3wallclimber: lower quality than just buying high end gear yourselfSep 10 21:31
wallclimberwell, i didn't know what to buy, and the numark was affordableSep 10 21:31
twitterbad turntableSep 10 21:31
cubezzzI suppose you could set up a good turntable, output to speakers and record thatSep 10 21:31
twitternooooooo!Sep 10 21:31
wallclimbernoooo! is right  lolSep 10 21:31
twitterif you have a nice stereo, just plug a line out into your computers line in.Sep 10 21:31
Diablo-D3wallclimber: you buy a normal turntable, output to 1/4" jacks, then record that to a high end pro sound cardSep 10 21:31
Diablo-D3seriously people, quit trying to make this so difficultSep 10 21:32
Diablo-D3recording analog sources is incredibly easySep 10 21:32
twitterDebian has a few programs to make it easier, something like "gramaphile"Sep 10 21:32
wallclimberthanks twitter, i'll look into itSep 10 21:32
wallclimberi hadn't heard ofgramaphile beforeSep 10 21:32
Diablo-D3wallclimber: you should buy a good sound card to begin withSep 10 21:32
wallclimberwell, i don't have a big budget for the music hobbySep 10 21:33
Diablo-D3wallclimber: $99 is not too muchSep 10 21:33
wallclimberwe've just tried to use hat we have or what we can affordSep 10 21:33
twitterI just used a vanilla recorder, krecord or krec then split the output by hand with audacitySep 10 21:33
wallclimber*what*Sep 10 21:33
twitteralso used audacity filtersSep 10 21:33
Diablo-D3care of the turntable is the most importantSep 10 21:34
twitterright, what I did only cost me time.Sep 10 21:34
twitterhad a nice mid 80s turntable and Sony ampSep 10 21:34
Diablo-D3don't even bother with the ampSep 10 21:34
DaemonFCI wonder if Last.FM would work if I installed the Windows version in WineSep 10 21:35
wallclimberDiablo-D3, $99 isn't too much?  I'm so happy you said that, please send it to me  lolSep 10 21:35
twitterrecorded with KDE's sound recording program.  Either Krecord or Krec.  These a generic, aka vanilla, sound recording programs.Sep 10 21:35
twitterAudacity is a common sound editing program with a good interface and good filters.Sep 10 21:36
Diablo-D3wallclimber: buy an audiotrak prodigy hd2Sep 10 21:36
twitterI recorded to wav and transcoded to ogg vorbis, then saved the results on CD.Sep 10 21:36
Diablo-D3wallclimber: it supports up to 24-bit 96khz recording, and only one of 5 cards I'd ever ownSep 10 21:37
wallclimberDiablo-D3: thanks, i'll investigate itSep 10 21:37
Diablo-D3wallclimber: I own one myself, btwSep 10 21:37
Diablo-D3quality is near perfectSep 10 21:37
twitterI've seen some of the commercial turntables but they usually terrible.Sep 10 21:38
Diablo-D3what you do is take a normal analog turntableSep 10 21:38
wallclimbertwitter: audacity is a beautiful program, isn't it?Sep 10 21:38
Diablo-D3get a cable that converts from whatever it outputs (usually rca, sometimes dual analog 1/4") to 3.5mmSep 10 21:38
wallclimberi'm listeningSep 10 21:39
Diablo-D3then turn the recording volume on the card up the whole way (but dont use the +20dB amp if it has one, this one dont)Sep 10 21:39
Diablo-D3and then turn the turntable down to the loudest peak on the record is -3dBSep 10 21:39
wallclimber(wallclimber copying and pasting all this information :)Sep 10 21:40
Diablo-D3and btwSep 10 21:40
Diablo-D3dont buy a cheap cableSep 10 21:40
Diablo-D3people keep buying dollar store shit and wonders why everything sounds badSep 10 21:41
wallclimberi learned about cheap cables the hard way, so i do know better nowSep 10 21:41
Diablo-D3blue jeans cable typically produces really high quality stuffSep 10 21:42
Diablo-D3I really like them because everything is assembled in the US by people who arent moronsSep 10 21:43
Diablo-D3http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htmSep 10 21:43
Diablo-D3scroll down to bjc msa-1, you'd want 1/8" to RCA for most ... well, everythingSep 10 21:43
DaemonFCI should make a Prism application for Last.FMSep 10 21:44
DaemonFCthey can't shut that downSep 10 21:44
wallclimberthis is great.  we've ripped all our music cds already, and managed to get some semi-decent copies of some old cassettes that we couldn't replace...but the LP conversion has been a challengeSep 10 21:44
Diablo-D3wallclimber: then you just have to find a good classic turntableSep 10 21:45
Diablo-D3wallclimber: turntables are so problematic sometimes thoughSep 10 21:46
wallclimberactually, we have two old turntables, nice ones in their day, but no longer working.  we thought we needed something like the numark to convert the LPsSep 10 21:46
Diablo-D3like my setup here would actually be perfect for itSep 10 21:46
Diablo-D3I have a double converting transformerSep 10 21:46
Diablo-D3and ahead of it I have a BrickwallSep 10 21:47
*_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@41.249.77.191) has joined #boycottnovellSep 10 21:47
wallclimberi think we'll get it figured out eventually.  it's mostly our weekend hobby project here.  so it's funSep 10 21:47
Diablo-D3wallclimber: wellSep 10 21:47
Diablo-D3the problem with turntables is they sometimes frequency drift due to shit on electrical linesSep 10 21:47
Diablo-D3they're really a pita to deal withSep 10 21:47
Diablo-D3but I don't think you want to buy a $500 UPS just to record audio withSep 10 21:48
Diablo-D3and theres no really other useful optionSep 10 21:48
wallclimberI have UPS all over the place. tSep 10 21:49
twitterthat's basically all I have.  Sorry about your old turntables, those are the best.  You might find a decent on in a thrift store, but it's important to also have a good amp with a "phono" input.Sep 10 21:49
twitterbblSep 10 21:49
Diablo-D3wallclimber: yeah, but none of yours are double converting always on, I betSep 10 21:50
twitteroh yeah, the amp also needs an "aux" or "tape" out.  have fun!Sep 10 21:50
Diablo-D3twitter: you dont use an amp for this!Sep 10 21:50
DaemonFCApparently Last FM gave an API key to the Banshee team for freeSep 10 21:51
DaemonFCand 1.6 will be able to connect againSep 10 21:51
wallclimberthanks! :)Sep 10 21:51
_Hicham_so that u can enjoy last.fmSep 10 21:51
Diablo-D3wallclimber: btw, you may wanna see if you can find some technics sl-1200Sep 10 21:51
Diablo-D3wallclimber: its like the holy grail of turntablesSep 10 21:51
_Hicham_DaemonFC the mono promoterSep 10 21:51
DaemonFCI got it from a drinking fountainSep 10 21:52
DaemonFC*cough*Sep 10 21:52
wallclimber:)Sep 10 21:52
wallclimberwill doSep 10 21:52
Diablo-D3wallclimber: one thats been properly maintained (or new, they've been making them again recently) will do you greatSep 10 21:52
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wallclimberi think we may hit some 2nd hand stores this weekendSep 10 21:52
Diablo-D3wallclimber: and also, its still a pita to record records. it'll take you a lot of practice to get a good recordingSep 10 21:53
MrFHey Roy, what time you got so far for the 2 miler?Sep 10 21:53
Diablo-D3its often easier to just buy remasterings of anything available on CDSep 10 21:53
Diablo-D3wallclimber: oh, and btw, that sound card can record natively in 44.1khzSep 10 21:53
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: They ruin the remastered CDs thoughSep 10 21:53
wallclimberwe don't mind the time, we just enjoy doing itSep 10 21:53
Diablo-D3wallclimber: if you plan on reburning to CD, 24-bit/44.1khz is niceSep 10 21:53
Diablo-D3wallclimber: if you're not, use the full 96khzSep 10 21:53
Diablo-D3wallclimber: it preserves more of the original sound imoSep 10 21:54
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: Vinyl should be imported with 92 Khz samplingSep 10 21:54
DaemonFCor 48 Khz if you're going straight to MP3 or VorbisSep 10 21:54
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: dude, shut up.Sep 10 21:54
Diablo-D3and they ruin SOME remasterings, the internet lets you know whichSep 10 21:54
DaemonFCthe "remastered" CDs are usually botched with dynamic range compressionSep 10 21:55
Diablo-D3its usually shit no one cares aboutSep 10 21:55
Diablo-D3like metallicaSep 10 21:55
DaemonFCbecause the people doing that shit are idiotsSep 10 21:55
Diablo-D3hear the new beatles remasterings?Sep 10 21:55
DaemonFCwhy would I have?Sep 10 21:55
Diablo-D3well, seeing as the beatles are the holy grail of music on records, you shouldSep 10 21:56
MinceRold metallica is fineSep 10 21:56
Diablo-D3MinceR: even old metallica kinda sucksSep 10 21:56
DaemonFCthey pwned themselves with Death Magnetic thoughSep 10 21:56
MinceRand certainly better than beatlesSep 10 21:56
DaemonFCthey fucked up the official CD so badly that the XBOX 360 rip on Bittorrent is the preferred versionSep 10 21:56
*Diablo-D3 actually likes the beatles damnitSep 10 21:56
cubezzzDiablo-D3, do you know of any way to repair a corrupted mpg video file?Sep 10 21:56
wallclimberyes, we are very protective of our Beatles LP collectionSep 10 21:57
*jono has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 10 21:57
DaemonFCeven people on the official Metallica forum tell you to go get the XBOX 360 rip off BittorrentSep 10 21:57
ThistleWebcubezzz: try opening it in avidemux, it may offer to rebuild the indexSep 10 21:57
DaemonFCnow that is funnySep 10 21:57
ThistleWebfailing that, there may be other options in avidemux to run it through that will helpSep 10 21:58
wallclimberwell, thanks for all the help and advice, i'd best get back to work now :)Sep 10 21:58
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 10 21:58
*MrF has quit ("Page closed")Sep 10 21:59
_Hicham_who tested audio/video in pidgin ?Sep 10 21:59
*schestowitz listens to http://www.linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/1Sep 10 21:59
cubezzzThistleWeb, thanks, I'll try thatSep 10 21:59
_Hicham_DaemonFC : do u have a GTalk account ?Sep 10 22:00
ThistleWebvlc has some conversion options too that many people forget aboutSep 10 22:00
schestowitzhttp://thistleweb.co.uk/2009/09/10/help-required-with-kde-basket/Sep 10 22:00
DaemonFC_Hicham_: yesSep 10 22:00
ThistleWebthat may only work if you are happy converting it to .ogv or .avi etcSep 10 22:00
DaemonFC_Hicham_: I only have one contact on itSep 10 22:01
cubezzzThistleWeb, yeah I'd rather fix the mpeg file if possibleSep 10 22:01
cubezzzwhat happened is it's a mpeg file but has other stuff embedded inside itSep 10 22:01
ThistleWebavidemux would be the first thing I'd try thenSep 10 22:01
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did u test pidgin audio/video support ?Sep 10 22:01
cubezzzso I need some utility to extract all the valid mpeg framesSep 10 22:02
ThistleWebI found that sometimes it needs to rebuild the index when it opens for some filesSep 10 22:02
DaemonFC_Hicham_: How would I?Sep 10 22:03
DaemonFCnobody I know has GtalkSep 10 22:03
ThistleWebit may be as simple as a broken or corrupted index thats causing the problems, in which case just save it after it's successfully opened, with both audio and video set to copy and it should be fineSep 10 22:03
ThistleWebthere's gframecatcher too, which gives the screenshots you often see of videos, with lots of options for how frequent the snapshot etc, separate images or a grid etcSep 10 22:05
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 10 22:06
DaemonFCschestowitz: Google is trying to charge for news nowSep 10 22:06
DaemonFChttp://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2009/09/07/daily65.htmlSep 10 22:06
Diablo-D3[04:05:25] <cubezzz> Diablo-D3, do you know of any way to repair a corrupted mpg video file?Sep 10 22:08
Diablo-D3cubezzz: use mplayerSep 10 22:08
DaemonFCthat Schwann's guy was flirting with meSep 10 22:11
DaemonFC:PSep 10 22:11
Diablo-D3ye gods, DaemonFC is gay?Sep 10 22:13
DaemonFC:DSep 10 22:15
trmancohttp://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00160.htmlSep 10 22:15
DaemonFCor maybe I'm just fabulousSep 10 22:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: no problem, I have alternatives to GoogleSep 10 22:16
schestowitzMiike was here (MrF)Sep 10 22:16
schestowitzI missed his arrivalSep 10 22:16
_goblintrmanco: like the link.....if only they had known where it would have ended up.Sep 10 22:16
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: I order some things from Schwan's sometimesSep 10 22:17
DaemonFCcause Walmart's meat is naaaaaaastySep 10 22:17
trmanco:DSep 10 22:17
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: walmart... has meat?Sep 10 22:17
DaemonFCwell, I suppose you could call it thatSep 10 22:17
cubezzzI recommend give Walmart a missSep 10 22:18
DaemonFCthey pack it in some kind of nitrogen filled containerSep 10 22:18
DaemonFCthey have to use food coloring in itSep 10 22:18
DaemonFCcause it's really purpleSep 10 22:18
DaemonFCWal-Mart that isSep 10 22:18
DaemonFCall chewy and full of gristleSep 10 22:18
*Diablo-D3 ponders adding DaemonFC back to his ignoreSep 10 22:18
MinceRartificial protein matrix? :>Sep 10 22:18
DaemonFCMinceR: Either that or there's a field of 90 year old cows somewhereSep 10 22:19
MinceR:DSep 10 22:19
MinceRsure, but killing them is usually considered murder ;)Sep 10 22:19
DaemonFChmmmmSep 10 22:19
DaemonFCwell, that's why I pay people to do it for me I guessSep 10 22:20
cubezzzgo vegetarianSep 10 22:20
DaemonFCwhy?Sep 10 22:20
cubezzzless expensive, healthierSep 10 22:20
schestowitzA journalist just mailed me this:Sep 10 22:20
schestowitz"Sep 10 22:20
schestowitz> Thought you might find this interesting...Sep 10 22:20
schestowitz>Sep 10 22:20
schestowitz> http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/microsoft-funds-effort-open-source-dialogue-193Sep 10 22:20
schestowitzYes, it's a PR and EEE thing. Predictable. :-)Sep 10 22:20
schestowitz"Sep 10 22:20
DaemonFCvegetarians are not healthy eitherSep 10 22:20
schestowitz_goblin: http://www.linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/1Sep 10 22:20
schestowitzListen to it, it's greatSep 10 22:20
DaemonFCit's just an extremeSep 10 22:20
_goblinfunny enough, Im just downloading....Sep 10 22:21
DaemonFCinstead of high cholesterol they have nutrient deficienciesSep 10 22:21
DaemonFCthey look gaunt and malnourishedSep 10 22:21
_goblinah....not that ep thoughSep 10 22:21
_goblinthe new one.Sep 10 22:21
schestowitz1st oneSep 10 22:21
schestowitzshortSep 10 22:21
schestowitz20 minutesSep 10 22:21
schestowitzMore rookieishSep 10 22:21
DaemonFChumans are omnivorous my friendSep 10 22:21
DaemonFCThere's room for all of god's creatures, right next to the mashed potatoesSep 10 22:21
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 22:21
_goblinI need to get some articles up.....its my late week at work....so im not off until sunday...Sep 10 22:22
cubezzzI think heat disease is still the number one cause of deathSep 10 22:22
trmanco_goblin: I have the audio fileSep 10 22:22
cubezzzer, _heart_ diseaseSep 10 22:22
DaemonFCcubezzz: Did you know that, statistically speaking, 100% of all people die?Sep 10 22:23
_goblintrmanco: I did something similar with "God gave rock and roll to you" (but Vista, not rock and roll)Sep 10 22:23
trmanco:)Sep 10 22:23
DaemonFCand that waffling about it has saved precisely 0 of themSep 10 22:23
cubezzzDaemonFC, yes but heart disease will speed up the processSep 10 22:23
trmancogeezSep 10 22:24
DaemonFCcubezzz: At least I'll get 72 years instead of 74 years of every meal tasting like buttered grassSep 10 22:25
DaemonFC:PSep 10 22:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @privacyint Two children, aged six and eleven, searched by police under UK anti-terrorism laws. http://bit.ly/2madx2Sep 10 22:26
cubezzzsome people live well over 100 yearsSep 10 22:26
DaemonFCyeah, it happensSep 10 22:27
cubezzzok, trying avidemux on this bad mpeg videoSep 10 22:27
*sebsebseb is now known as sebsebsebsebSep 10 22:27
DaemonFCsome people smoke 3 packs a day and live to be 100Sep 10 22:27
DaemonFCjust to piss everyone else offSep 10 22:27
*sebsebsebseb is now known as qwrqwrSep 10 22:28
_goblinidentity crisis sebseb?Sep 10 22:29
cubezzzDaemonFC, that seems extremely unlikelySep 10 22:29
cubezzzI'd be interested to know of any case like thatSep 10 22:29
qwrqwr_goblin: no trying to  highlight someone for funSep 10 22:30
_goblinah.Sep 10 22:30
qwrqwr_goblin: since apparnatly he has turned highlight off on meSep 10 22:30
*_goblin is now known as _GoblinSep 10 22:30
cubezzzDiablo-D3, I did try mplayer on this fileSep 10 22:30
cubezzzI got 9:41 out of 31 minutesSep 10 22:30
DaemonFCcan Mplayer capture webcam audio/video streams?Sep 10 22:31
*DaemonFC has never messed around with MPlayerSep 10 22:31
trmancoyou can play videos in the command line :DSep 10 22:32
trmancoascii videoSep 10 22:32
cubezzzThistleWeb, I'm going to experiement with avidemux, it looks interestingSep 10 22:32
ThistleWebcubezzz: it's a great appSep 10 22:33
DaemonFCtrmanco: ASCII Porn?Sep 10 22:33
cubezzzit got the same results as mplayer, 9:42 of video salvaged out of 31 minutesSep 10 22:33
trmancoany typeSep 10 22:33
DaemonFChmmmSep 10 22:33
trmancoporn,horror,animeSep 10 22:33
_Goblinhttp://bit.ly/2madx2 - Mmm....Sec44 does not require an officer to give grounds....in a similar way to a sec60....interesting to see how they will complain...Sep 10 22:33
*qwrqwr is now known as sebsebsebSep 10 22:34
_Goblinas long as it complies with SOP/best practice and theres no other issues, its difficult (IMO) to challenge Sec44 searchs.....Sep 10 22:34
ThistleWebI use avidemux for cutting clips out of moviesSep 10 22:34
_GoblinimoSep 10 22:34
cubezzztrying rebuild all key framesSep 10 22:34
ThistleWebstart and end frame, AV on copy and exportSep 10 22:34
ThistleWebit's also great for clipping videos that peeps have encoded with black bordersSep 10 22:35
ThistleWebresizing, fixing aspect ratios etcSep 10 22:36
schestowitzopensuse ftw. http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Nuremberg-openSUSE-Server-Down-over-WeekendSep 10 22:36
schestowitzNovell still neglects those boysSep 10 22:36
schestowitzThey complainedSep 10 22:36
schestowitzU.S. Copyright Office Objects To Google Books Settlement http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/10/us-copyright-office-objects-to-google-books-settlementSep 10 22:37
schestowitz_Hicham_: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/10/google-sites-goes-hebrew-and-arabicSep 10 22:38
*MrF (i=5acce531@gateway/web/freenode/x-mopzhcrrcbnqtnyt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 10 22:39
MrFRoy, you there?Sep 10 22:39
schestowitzHey mateSep 10 22:39
schestowitzI just came back after you had enteredSep 10 22:39
schestowitzI haven't practised yetSep 10 22:39
schestowitzI might not at allSep 10 22:39
MrFYou in the gym tomorrow?Sep 10 22:40
schestowitzBTW, trophies for last year's contest might be handed out along with this year'sSep 10 22:40
schestowitzMrF: no, came back an hour agoSep 10 22:40
MrFYou could get 2 trophies then!Sep 10 22:40
schestowitzNot likelySep 10 22:40
schestowitzToo much enduranceSep 10 22:40
MrFAre you in the gym tomorrow dinner?Sep 10 22:40
schestowitzI need to get very slimSep 10 22:40
schestowitzI could.Sep 10 22:40
schestowitzInstead of Say.Sep 10 22:41
schestowitz*Sat.Sep 10 22:41
MrFI will be in there at oneSep 10 22:41
Diablo-D3http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/k1rWoqw1HaM/Microsoft-Launches-Its-Own-Open-Source-FoundationSep 10 22:41
schestowitzMrF: too earlySep 10 22:41
MrFDid joey speak to you about next fridays food, greg is coming too i thinkSep 10 22:41
schestowitzDiablo-D3: yeah, PR and EEESep 10 22:41
schestowitzoh yeah...Sep 10 22:41
schestowitzhas he phoned you?Sep 10 22:41
schestowitzI told him tooSep 10 22:41
schestowitzWe should arrange s/tSep 10 22:42
MrFyea we spoke yesterdaySep 10 22:42
MrFi will be in gym sat if you are in we could get food and practiceSep 10 22:42
schestowitzOKSep 10 22:42
MrFi just did 70 good quality press ups!Sep 10 22:43
schestowitz70 in how long?Sep 10 22:44
schestowitz2 mins?Sep 10 22:44
MrF(2 mins)ok i gotta go matey i will be on here tomorrow and we can arrange sat, we can get food and do ping pong plus press upsSep 10 22:44
schestowitzOK, I need to do the run SundaySep 10 22:44
schestowitzLast daySep 10 22:45
MrFyou doing it Sunday, hmmm very tactical!Sep 10 22:45
schestowitzNope, psychological. procrastination.Sep 10 22:45
MrFwell i will do it sunday to........after you! lolSep 10 22:46
schestowitzIt doesn't matterSep 10 22:46
schestowitzYou'd do better anywaySep 10 22:46
schestowitzCraig did it in almost 12 minsSep 10 22:46
MrFi dunno, i was looking at your times earlier you did a 38 minute 10k, man you are a machine, you never lose itSep 10 22:47
MrFCraig did it in 12 mins on the hard machine when was this?Sep 10 22:47
schestowitzNot 12Sep 10 22:47
schestowitzMaybe he could do itSep 10 22:48
schestowitzThe 10k was years agoSep 10 22:48
schestowitzI practisedSep 10 22:48
MrFwhat time did craig get, last i heard he got 13.17, you saying he has got close to 12 mins!Sep 10 22:48
schestowitzhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10347427-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoadIBM idiots...Sep 10 22:48
schestowitzMrF: no, you'd beat himSep 10 22:49
schestowitzBut he got better than last yearSep 10 22:49
MrFbut has he got close to 12?Sep 10 22:49
sebsebsebheh I put something in the Ubuntu channal about many goverments and local city councils,  wanting ODF,  well not the UK :(Sep 10 22:50
MrFnobody is keeping their times secret this year everyone is being open and honest so you can tellSep 10 22:50
schestowitzMrF: no, like 12:30Sep 10 22:50
schestowitzOr elssSep 10 22:51
schestowitz*lessSep 10 22:51
schestowitzHe did the first mile too fastSep 10 22:51
schestowitzStarted groaning and had to slow down *LOL*Sep 10 22:51
MrFwas this today he got near 12.30Sep 10 22:51
sebsebsebwould be great if  more organisations weren't locked into propritary software and formats, but no :(Sep 10 22:51
MrFlolSep 10 22:51
schestowitzsebsebseb: the UK and Aussie are prisoners of RedmondSep 10 22:52
schestowitzThese departments are run by former Softies and their lunch buddiesSep 10 22:52
sebsebsebyeah and the USASep 10 22:52
sebsebseband even CanadaSep 10 22:52
schestowitzMrF: I think he was aiming to beat you @ speed 9.6Sep 10 22:52
schestowitzsebsebseb: the English Speaking Kickbacks ClubSep 10 22:52
MrFOk then Roysy looks like we gonna have to dip below 12 mins to beat off the challenge of these young bucks....let em have it!Sep 10 22:53
schestowitzLike with the Invasion of IraqSep 10 22:53
sebsebsebschestowitz: What do you mean?Sep 10 22:53
schestowitzUK, US, AussieSep 10 22:53
sebsebsebkickbacks ???Sep 10 22:53
schestowitzIn Microsoft's caseSep 10 22:53
schestowitzThey do favoursSep 10 22:53
schestowitzSee Ashley Highfield and the BBC for exampleSep 10 22:53
schestowitzit's shallowSep 10 22:53
sebsebsebyeah Russia and Cuba are  embracing open source?Sep 10 22:53
schestowitzMrF: the 'squash people' take the running stages usuallySep 10 22:54
sebsebsebI think I read something before about the goverments there, pretty much  on the verge of getting rid of MicrosoftSep 10 22:54
schestowitzYou're not even near firstSep 10 22:54
schestowitzsebsebseb: Russian, Brazil, Germany and France are among the leadersSep 10 22:54
schestowitzAnd victims of US Quality CIO Coups tooSep 10 22:54
schestowitzLike Venezuela and CubaSep 10 22:54
MrFwhy what is the quickest so far mateySep 10 22:55
sebsebsebsure,  but those the  goverment organisations, most of the people living in this countries are still locked into Microsoft big timeSep 10 22:55
sebsebsebthat's not those aboveSep 10 22:55
schestowitzMrF: no clue. I'm nowhere near it, eitherSep 10 22:55
sebsebseband those not thisSep 10 22:55
schestowitzsebsebseb: don't expect changes in the UKSep 10 22:56
schestowitzUK will follow the restSep 10 22:56
MrFhow do you know i am nowhere near it if you don't know the fastest time or are you guessingSep 10 22:56
schestowitzSame with the USSep 10 22:56
schestowitzLook at the BS from .NET appsSep 10 22:56
schestowitzIt shows US usageSep 10 22:56
sebsebsebschestowitz: yep I don't expect computing in the UK  to become  much better, any time soonSep 10 22:56
schestowitzWith many Mac users and few LinuxSep 10 22:56
schestowitzTHat's US IPsSep 10 22:56
schestowitzIt's very slow there for LinuxSep 10 22:56
schestowitzA lot slowerSep 10 22:56
schestowitzCause the politics there is run by the corporations that are having lunch with MS execsSep 10 22:56
schestowitzsebsebseb: see what RMS doesSep 10 22:57
sebsebsebexactly  educational establishments and  such,  like to follow what business is doingSep 10 22:57
schestowitzHe goes from Mass down south to where he makes a differenceSep 10 22:57
sebsebsebschestowitz: What does he do?Sep 10 22:57
sebsebsebMass down south?Sep 10 22:57
MrFhow do you know i am nowhere near it if you don't know the fastest time or are you guessingSep 10 22:57
schestowitzHe met Carrera and immediately afterwards the president announced a nationwide migraiton to Free SoftwareSep 10 22:57
sebsebsebCarrera ??Sep 10 22:58
schestowitzMassachusettsSep 10 22:58
schestowitzBoston is where the FSFians resideSep 10 22:58
schestowitzBut Boston is harder to convert than SOuth AmericaSep 10 22:58
schestowitzOr Kerala evenSep 10 22:58
sebsebsebhe got a state in India interested and  loads  of schools use it now thereSep 10 22:58
schestowitzEven worse in middle USiaSep 10 22:58
sebsebsebwhat's  Kerala ??Sep 10 22:58
schestowitzWhere the notion of freedom is probably more to do with NRASep 10 22:58
*sebsebseb does not know geographicay that wellSep 10 22:59
MrFok i gotta go now roystonSep 10 22:59
*sebsebseb espeasilly non European geographySep 10 22:59
schestowitzsebsebseb: Kerala is that stateSep 10 22:59
schestowitzMrF: latersSep 10 22:59
MrFlaters big fellaSep 10 22:59
sebsebsebschestowitz: yep  make a difference in Asia and such :)Sep 10 23:00
*MrF has quit ("Page closed")Sep 10 23:00
sebsebsebthat's the nice thing about  freesoftware/opensource  your treated the same basicalley,   whatever type of user you areSep 10 23:00
sebsebsebyou can have the same software, or usaulleySep 10 23:00
sebsebsebyou can be  rich or poor and still be using the same software,  legalley and  for freeSep 10 23:01
schestowitzAsia was going to abandon MicrosoftSep 10 23:01
sebsebsebno, oh well   we want to lock companies in, so  we will make a better version for them,  than what  we will still to consumers/homeusersSep 10 23:01
schestowitzBully Ballmer resorted to racketeeringSep 10 23:02
schestowitzThreatened to sue them, the bastardSep 10 23:02
sebsebsebschestowitz: I would hope so,  espesailly when Microsoft are treating a lot of them as   3rd class citizens let's say.  with the  Windows Starter EditionSep 10 23:02
schestowitzIt's like a mafia thingSep 10 23:02
schestowitzIt's not just MicrosoftSep 10 23:02
schestowitzIt's the west in generalSep 10 23:02
schestowitzFree softare does not belong to the westSep 10 23:03
schestowitzIt belongs to its userSep 10 23:03
sebsebsebyep it fits in to all of itSep 10 23:03
schestowitzThere's their change to escape dependencySep 10 23:03
schestowitzAlso of the patent mazeSep 10 23:03
sebsebsebcapitalism, communism, socialism, whateverSep 10 23:03
sebsebsebit fits inSep 10 23:03
schestowitz_US_ PTO mazeSep 10 23:03
schestowitzMeans good to the USSep 10 23:03
schestowitzMoney flows in one waySep 10 23:03
trmancokonq almost b0rked my systemSep 10 23:03
schestowitzDebt imposed on outer nationsSep 10 23:03
sebsebseband people are treated as equals  basically, as I was sayingSep 10 23:03
trmancostupid flash blobSep 10 23:03
sebsebsebschestowitz: well things  like this are global, and so if most of Asia end up using  freesoftware/opensource :DSep 10 23:04
sebsebsebbig market  share in Asia,  effecting the global market share as wellSep 10 23:04
sebsebseb:DSep 10 23:04
schestowitzyesSep 10 23:04
schestowitzApple welcomes music streaming to US App Store < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/rhapsody_for_iphone/ >Sep 10 23:04
_GoblinSince MS watch is now mostly the remit of FOSS advocates, its interesting to see the "old school MS faithful" trying to creep in....check out this comment and tell me if you don't think with all the keywords in it it doesnt smell a little iffy........>Sep 10 23:05
schestowitzAsia already has changed a lotSep 10 23:05
schestowitzLet me show you a leaked Microsoft memoSep 10 23:05
_GoblinQuote Freelee "Ah, whoop de whoo! So what?!?! It's just a party for crying out loud! What's wrong with having a party? What's wrong with having fun? Me and my buddies love PC's and having parties. Any of you all who don't like it, that's your choice. I'm having my Windows 7 party and me and my buddies are going to have a good time! We've loved Windows 7 RC, and can't wait to have the final product. And the party!"Sep 10 23:05
sebsebsebschestowitz: it sickens me how most stuff these days is about moneySep 10 23:06
sebsebsebfrom food, to clothes, to housing,  to  nearly anythingSep 10 23:06
sebsebsebmoney can be good or bad, dependsSep 10 23:06
ThistleWeba thought occurred to me today when reading a MS piece, that's Maggie Shiels, not Microsoft.....is that a pseudonym or just a coincidence that when MS blogs, it's MS content?Sep 10 23:07
_GoblinThistleweb: The amount of social media accounts Microsoft has is frightening....Sep 10 23:07
sebsebsebThistleWeb: well  I was thinking today  and yesterday,  a bit, about how  if I could ever  do  consumer Linux support for the area I live inSep 10 23:08
sebsebsebhow I would some how  have to build up my own market, get people interested,  but how hmmSep 10 23:08
_GoblinThistleweb: I bet MS has more accounts than I have followers.Sep 10 23:08
sebsebseband how going to peoples doors and trying to get people interested woudn't really work, unless the right thing is said  or whateverSep 10 23:08
schestowitzsebsebseb: here. I've found it. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/08/microsoft-2003-linux-intelligence/Sep 10 23:09
ThistleWebwasn't there a sorta connect-a-geek type service, where you can sign up as a helper in that area, what times you can help etc, then calls from that area during those times get forwarded to youSep 10 23:09
schestowitzThistleWeb: 'Maggie' wrote about Jobs todaySep 10 23:09
sebsebsebThistleWeb: don't knowSep 10 23:09
schestowitz_Goblin: Microsoft hires agencies to make these accountsSep 10 23:10
schestowitzFederated Media and stuffSep 10 23:10
ThistleWebschestowitz: yeah I read the weak Jobs / Apple conference blog, that was the one where I noticed the initialsSep 10 23:10
schestowitzThey are big on shillingSep 10 23:10
schestowitzSee Best Bribe Incident for detailsSep 10 23:10
schestowitzThat's same ol MicrosoftSep 10 23:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] UK Government apology to Alan Turing http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page20571Sep 10 23:11
sebsebsebThistleWeb: plus  to do it more  properly anyway,   I would have to know more first,  because I am not an IT proSep 10 23:11
ThistleWebI believe askerisk offer certifications for official support if you wanna start a support business supporting asterisk systemsSep 10 23:11
sebsebsebone reason I like this channal,  it seems to have people who have worked in computing for years,  who  know quite a lot of stuffSep 10 23:11
ThistleWebthen you're an official partner with them, with all the responibilities that entailsSep 10 23:12
sebsebsebThistleWeb: that's for business thoughSep 10 23:12
sebsebsebI was thinking of doing an LPISep 10 23:12
sebsebsebwhich is also for business of course reallySep 10 23:12
ThistleWebone person can work as a businessSep 10 23:12
ThistleWebif it grows, you can employ othersSep 10 23:12
sebsebsebI have this feeling that not many businesses around here use AsteriskSep 10 23:13
sebsebsebif any evenSep 10 23:13
ThistleWebthat was just an exampleSep 10 23:13
ThistleWebplenty of software is aimed at businesses, who want supportSep 10 23:13
schestowitzsebsebseb: Asterisk is 'British'Sep 10 23:13
schestowitzAFAIK, Mark from Digium is a BritSep 10 23:13
ThistleWebhome users are often happy with forums etcSep 10 23:13
sebsebsebyeah suporting businesses is  a way to make money,  but I need to be qualified enough first, qualfication or whateverSep 10 23:14
schestowitzexperience is betterSep 10 23:14
ThistleWebbut businesses rely on that software working for them when they need it to, time is money, they want a phone number with an instant responseSep 10 23:14
*sebsebseb is still pretty young really, and has mainly rubbish on his CV at the moment reallySep 10 23:14
schestowitzLinux and Java are top skills for employmentSep 10 23:14
schestowitzIn the US evenSep 10 23:15
schestowitzNot sure what the UK is likeSep 10 23:15
schestowitzI do know...Sep 10 23:15
*_Goblin has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 10 23:15
schestowitzSeems more Microsoft-oriented than most places, but seeing hard numbers would helpSep 10 23:15
schestowitzSaying it based on 'feel' aint' goodSep 10 23:15
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 10 23:15
ThistleWeblinux / unix skills are in high demand for server stuffSep 10 23:16
schestowitz_goblin: you've gotta listen to that episode 1Sep 10 23:16
sebsebsebthis could work two ways,  loads of businesses start using Linux, and then many home users follow,  or  loads of home users start using Linux, and then many businesses followSep 10 23:16
schestowitzit's short, tooSep 10 23:16
schestowitzsebsebseb: government need to startSep 10 23:16
schestowitzThen it cascades to bixSep 10 23:16
schestowitzbizSep 10 23:16
schestowitzCaused business depend on ODF for govt. forms and stuffSep 10 23:17
ThistleWebyep, thats why MS try to force peeps who interact with govt sites to use IE and windowsSep 10 23:17
_goblinIll give it a go now....Sep 10 23:17
schestowitzPeople use at home what the employer gave themSep 10 23:17
sebsebsebschestowitz: Well  I don't expect the UK goverment to take  opensource/freesoftware seriously and end up using loads of it as a result, any time soonSep 10 23:17
schestowitzA matter of habitsSep 10 23:17
ThistleWeb"want to apply for a govt contract? better use windows and IE"Sep 10 23:17
schestowitzsebsebseb: good political stunts thoughSep 10 23:17
schestowitzThe Tories play with itSep 10 23:17
schestowitzMaybe they actually mean itSep 10 23:18
sebsebsebwhat do you mean by that?Sep 10 23:18
schestowitzSee "tory open source" in googleSep 10 23:18
_goblinnasty......the guitar intro is bad.........Sep 10 23:19
sebsebseb_goblin: what's this?Sep 10 23:19
_goblinspeaking as a guitarist.......Sep 10 23:19
_goblinLinux Outlaws Ep1Sep 10 23:19
sebsebseb_goblin: what's that?Sep 10 23:19
ThistleWeba podcastSep 10 23:19
_goblinA Linux podcastSep 10 23:19
ThistleWebthey're onto like 109 nowSep 10 23:20
_goblinwww.linuxoutlaws.comSep 10 23:20
*sebsebseb is behind on reading Linux newsSep 10 23:20
ThistleWebearly podcasts are always rough thoughSep 10 23:20
*sebsebseb and hasn't got into listening to loads of podcasts yetSep 10 23:20
_goblinvery good show...Sep 10 23:20
ThistleWebheard the early TLLTS?Sep 10 23:20
popey\o/ linuxoutlawsSep 10 23:20
popey\o/ oggcamp :)Sep 10 23:20
popeyschestowitz: coming along to LRL / Oggcamp? :)Sep 10 23:20
ThistleWebas popey turns up in his cheerleaders outfit lolSep 10 23:21
sebsebseb\o/   popey :DSep 10 23:21
schestowitzYAY!!Sep 10 23:22
schestowitzRamji boy is leaving!!Sep 10 23:22
ThistleWebI guess we should mention that ubuntu one eh? lolSep 10 23:22
ThistleWebthe bunch of Fedora using fakersSep 10 23:23
*ThistleWeb ducksSep 10 23:23
schestowitzpopey: maybe. _goblin, you?Sep 10 23:23
schestowitzMicrosoft can't keep 'foss' people in this job for more than 2 yearsSep 10 23:24
popeyschestowitz: think they'll replace him?Sep 10 23:24
schestowitzDont' knowSep 10 23:24
_goblinlol...Sep 10 23:24
schestowitzHilf moved to Server over 2 years agoSep 10 23:25
ThistleWebit'd be funny if people just ignored RamjiSep 10 23:25
popeyhttp://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2009/09/sam-ramji-leaving-microsoft.html says they're lookingSep 10 23:25
schestowitzRamji came from SAAS, not FOSSSep 10 23:25
schestowitzHe was not suitableSep 10 23:25
schestowitzHe didn't understand the GPL evenSep 10 23:25
ThistleWebwhen he gets up to speak, just walk outSep 10 23:25
ThistleWebwhen he does press conferences, let him do it to an empty room....well apart from the MS plantsSep 10 23:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ramji boy is leaving Microsoft.Sep 10 23:26
_goblin"There are many people within and across Microsoft that will continue to advocate for open source."Sep 10 23:26
ThistleWebschestowitz: maybe it was lost in translation SAAS does sound like sauce, or open sauce, which is not to be confused with open source, nor vice versa lolSep 10 23:27
_goblinyeah, advocate its demise.Sep 10 23:27
MinceRm$ is trying to steal open sourceSep 10 23:27
schestowitzThistleWeb: but not necessatilySep 10 23:27
schestowitz*necessarilySep 10 23:27
MinceRto put it under their own control and kill projects they don't likeSep 10 23:27
schestowitzRamji is a good personSep 10 23:27
schestowitzHe just worked for an evil companySep 10 23:27
schestowitzAnd allowing himself to do this is sillySep 10 23:28
MinceRwhy would a good person willingly work for an evil company?Sep 10 23:28
MinceRand knowinglySep 10 23:28
schestowitzHe shilled for them, he felt disliked, and he probably realise it wasn't for himSep 10 23:28
schestowitz*realisedSep 10 23:28
ThistleWebwe have a saying, "fly with the crows, get shot with the crows"Sep 10 23:28
MinceRthe crows aren't evilSep 10 23:28
ThistleWebwas taught as a lesson on picking your matesSep 10 23:28
MinceRm$ people areSep 10 23:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz for novell? ;-pSep 10 23:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz or the bbc?Sep 10 23:29
ThistleWebyou will be tarred with the same brush as them if you associate with themSep 10 23:29
ThistleWebspecially if you're deemed intelligent enough to KNOW what you're doing, and it's implicationsSep 10 23:29
ThistleWebMinceR: I'm sure some farmers would take issue with that, they didn't invent scarecrows for nothingSep 10 23:31
MinceRharmful is not the same as evilSep 10 23:31
ThistleWebyeah trueSep 10 23:31
MinceRif two people oppose each other, that doesn't mean one of them must be evilSep 10 23:31
ThistleWebif one of them is MS, it does.....and it's never them lolSep 10 23:32
MinceRwell, we already know m$ is evilSep 10 23:32
ThistleWebthey're always the poor hard done by company who only want to help make peoples lives better and all these pests come along and eat it's profits and offer better productsSep 10 23:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Currently listening to Killer (Jean Elan Mix) by Jean Elan [Amarok].Sep 10 23:33
MinceRand they never show any remorse or regret for what they doSep 10 23:33
MinceRthey're psychopathsSep 10 23:33
schestowitzOracle to continue supporting SPARC/SolarisSep 10 23:36
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxinsight.com/oracle-to-continue-supporting-sparc-solaris.htmlSep 10 23:36
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DaemonFCwell, after dedicating an hour of my life I figured out how to get VLC to capture from this infernal webcamSep 10 22:49
DaemonFCso maybe now I can forward the stream to Justin.tvSep 10 22:52
cubezzzI don't think all microsoft people are evilSep 10 22:52
cubezzzfor some it's just a jobSep 10 22:52
MinceRwell, their cleaning staff probably aren'tSep 10 22:52
cubezzz;-)Sep 10 22:52
MinceRthey probably don't even know whom they're servingSep 10 22:52
cubezzzprobably notSep 10 22:52
DaemonFCMinceR: Or stopped caringSep 10 22:52
DaemonFCyou can solve a lot of problems that waySep 10 22:52
MinceRbut their management wastes no time thinking about how they could rip off the rest of the world for their own gainSep 10 22:53
MinceRDaemonFC: not reallySep 10 22:53
cubezzzbut even some of their programmers aren't evilSep 10 22:53
MinceRit doesn't solve the problemSep 10 22:53
MinceRcubezzz: then they're just incompetent?Sep 10 22:53
cubezzzit's the higher ups that want total controlSep 10 22:53
DaemonFCMinceR: For you it mightSep 10 22:53
MinceRthough "incompetent" is a little weak for what m$ code monkeys areSep 10 22:53
DaemonFCdepends on whether it's your problem or notSep 10 22:53
cubezzzMinceR, some microsoft guys use Linux at homeSep 10 22:53
MinceRcubezzz: why do they serve m$ then?Sep 10 22:53
cubezzzfor moneySep 10 22:53
DaemonFCMinceR: It's a paycheckSep 10 22:54
MinceRdon't they realize they're harming themselves on the long run?Sep 10 22:54
MinceRDaemonFC: there are other companies they could work forSep 10 22:54
DaemonFCif the choices were work for Microsoft or don't have a jobSep 10 22:54
DaemonFCI'm sure you'd find it quite easySep 10 22:54
MinceRthat's not what the choices areSep 10 22:54
cubezzzwell, I don't think it's a good idea myselfSep 10 22:54
DaemonFCyou don't know thatSep 10 22:54
cubezzzI wouldn't work for microsoft :)Sep 10 22:54
MinceRwell, i could pretty easily find an employer who relies on m$ crap as little as they canSep 10 22:54
MinceRi doubt i'd fit in at m$ anywaySep 10 22:55
MinceRthey seem to abhor sw developers who have a clueSep 10 22:55
MinceR:>Sep 10 22:55
cubezzzthey have to tow the line at microsoft and I'm sure they have some clueSep 10 22:55
MinceRlooking at their work shows otherwiseSep 10 22:55
MinceRthe level on which they screw up everything is surrealSep 10 22:56
schestowitz"Unigine's CEO, Denis Shergin, has shared with us that currently they have temporarily postponed work on this game project to develop a "short interactive demo" for Microsoft's DirectX 11.0 launch. However, Denis is hoping the developers will get back to work on this multi-platform Unigine game project in November. This does, however, lower hopes of seeing the Unigine game make it out this year as was once anticipated."Sep 10 22:56
schestowitzhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzUyMwSep 10 22:56
cubezzzI am surprised at how aggressive microsoft has become against LinuxSep 10 22:56
MinceRi'm not so surprisedSep 10 22:56
cubezzzthe best buy thing especiallySep 10 22:57
DaemonFCyou mean their salt the Earth retail policy?Sep 10 22:57
schestowitzSurprised?Sep 10 22:57
MinceRthey realized they're dying and they can't do a damn thing about itSep 10 22:57
DaemonFCthat's not surprisingSep 10 22:57
schestowitzWhy?Sep 10 22:57
trmancohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lak9a4nqtNUSep 10 22:57
schestowitzBusiness as usualSep 10 22:57
schestowitzThis time they got exposedSep 10 22:57
MinceRthey've always been as vile as they comeSep 10 22:57
cubezzzit's _too_ aggressiveSep 10 22:57
schestowitzBribery there is not unusualSep 10 22:57
MinceRso it's natural that they're attacking all-outSep 10 22:57
cubezzzthe DOJ should step inSep 10 22:57
schestowitzThe Best Bribe thing is small potatoesSep 10 22:57
MinceRinstead of trying to come up with products that workSep 10 22:57
DaemonFCschestowitz: Is the lancelot menu in KDE 4.3 or is it some optional thing?Sep 10 22:57
DaemonFCI never did think to lookSep 10 22:57
MinceRor even look for the error of their waysSep 10 22:57
DaemonFCI mean, is it some kind of add on packageSep 10 22:58
cubezzzthere's no reason Linux and MIcrosoft couldn't co-existSep 10 22:58
MinceRyes there isSep 10 22:58
schestowitzDaemonFC: it's thereSep 10 22:58
MinceRthat reason is called microsoftSep 10 22:58
schestowitz4.3.1Sep 10 22:58
schestowitzAdd it as a widgetSep 10 22:58
schestowitzTo the desktopSep 10 22:58
MinceRthey can't coexist, they can't competeSep 10 22:58
MinceRthey can only destroySep 10 22:58
DaemonFCit will work in the taskbar though right?Sep 10 22:58
DaemonFCin place of the normal KDE menu?Sep 10 22:58
schestowitzAsk i4iSep 10 22:58
schestowitzi4i tells its side of the story: Microsoft ruined our businessSep 10 22:59
schestowitzhttp://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090909235419648Sep 10 22:59
cubezzzwell then the government needs to really provide over-sightSep 10 22:59
schestowitzDaemonFC: it's flexibleSep 10 22:59
MinceRall the government provides is money for its members and clientsSep 10 22:59
schestowitzI haven't used it much yet. So far, so good, thoughSep 10 22:59
schestowitzIt looks good, tooSep 10 22:59
MinceRand a chance to make people's lives difficult just for funSep 10 22:59
cubezzzDepartment of _Justice_Sep 10 22:59
schestowitz'Justice'Sep 10 23:00
MinceRthat's just marketingSep 10 23:00
schestowitzRMS calls it Department of 'Justice'Sep 10 23:00
schestowitzDOJ JonesSep 10 23:00
schestowitzShow me THE MONEY!Sep 10 23:00
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cubezzzwell obviously they (microsofties) must be getting nervousSep 10 23:01
MinceRthey should look insideSep 10 23:01
schestowitz"Sep 10 23:01
schestowitzI hope that I can last more on this foundation than I lasted at the FSF, where I was removed by RMS after refusing to be an active part of the campaign to rename Linux as GNU/Linux.Sep 10 23:01
MinceRor they should dieSep 10 23:01
schestowitzhttp://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Sep-10.htmlSep 10 23:01
schestowitzsiding with Microsoft and distancing himself from the FSF after they [cref 15000 expressed concerns about Mono].Sep 10 23:01
schestowitzMigi found a new homeSep 10 23:02
schestowitzHe joins MicrosoftSep 10 23:02
schestowitzWalks away from FSF, it seemsSep 10 23:02
MinceRso he finally got the job he wanted?Sep 10 23:02
MinceRor this is someone else?Sep 10 23:02
schestowitzGood luck witn ms-plSep 10 23:02
cubezzzhe took the money I guessSep 10 23:02
MinceRde icaza had something to do with the FSF?Sep 10 23:02
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, Microsoft is nervousSep 10 23:02
schestowitzThey cut down their eventsSep 10 23:02
schestowitzPicnic cancelledSep 10 23:02
cubezzzStallman is rather unique I'd saySep 10 23:03
schestowitzSilent layoffsSep 10 23:03
MinceRoh, i seeSep 10 23:03
cubezzzphilosophy trumps money for himSep 10 23:03
MinceRhe was kicked out of the FSFSep 10 23:03
schestowitzMicrosoft scales back its big employee meeting, just a bit http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/09/microsoft_trims_company_meeting.html?ana=from_rssSep 10 23:03
MinceRas he should beSep 10 23:03
schestowitzRMS told me he promotes the "Microsoft line"Sep 10 23:03
MinceRyes, RMS is sadly unique in the sense that he isn't a money-grubbing bastard like most humans areSep 10 23:03
MinceRhuman society is as rotten as it is because most people are quite fine with the idea of treading on the other for just a cent more or some sort of satisfaction that they've at least managed to make the life of another a bit worseSep 10 23:04
cubezzzLinux must be getting stronger for microsoft to pull all this crapSep 10 23:05
DaemonFCMinceR: A lot of the time it's the only way to make a living wageSep 10 23:05
DaemonFCthe universe rewards crueltySep 10 23:05
schestowitzMinceR: some in South America were the sameSep 10 23:05
MinceRDaemonFC: you can live without a wage, btwSep 10 23:05
schestowitzThe CIA assassinated themSep 10 23:05
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schestowitzThey wanted to help their peopleSep 10 23:05
MinceRmany people doSep 10 23:05
schestowitzANd the CIA couldn't bribe themSep 10 23:05
schestowitzThey triedSep 10 23:05
cubezzzMinceR, how can you do that?Sep 10 23:05
schestowitzLet me find you a video about that, tooSep 10 23:06
DaemonFCMinceR: What?Sep 10 23:06
MinceRcubezzz: have you heard of farmers? :)Sep 10 23:06
DaemonFCliving in the forest?Sep 10 23:06
DaemonFChunting for food?Sep 10 23:06
cubezzzsureSep 10 23:06
DaemonFCwiping my ass with pine cones?Sep 10 23:06
cubezzzI even grow some food myselfSep 10 23:06
schestowitzmiguel found love. http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Miguel_de_Icaza.jpgSep 10 23:06
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MinceRbtw, even freelancers get their money in a form that's not a wage.Sep 10 23:06
cubezzzbut even farmers have to pay taxesSep 10 23:06
cubezzzbuy equipment, buy fuelSep 10 23:07
MinceRdo they earn wages?Sep 10 23:07
schestowitzMinceR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc8XkYovWRU&feature=relatedSep 10 23:07
schestowitzDo watch itSep 10 23:07
schestowitzStart at 6minsSep 10 23:07
cubezzzwell they are probably self-employedSep 10 23:07
schestowitzI found it for you to watchSep 10 23:08
cubezzzso sure I guess self-employed people aren't wage slavesSep 10 23:08
DaemonFCcubezzz: Yeah they areSep 10 23:08
DaemonFCthey still work for someoneSep 10 23:08
cubezzzDaemonFC, not to the same degree as an employee thoughSep 10 23:08
DaemonFCsometimes notSep 10 23:09
DaemonFCsometimes moreSep 10 23:09
MinceRschestowitz: i've heard about this arrangementSep 10 23:09
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DaemonFCthere was a guy that won the lottery a while back and they asked him what he planned to do with the moneySep 10 23:09
DaemonFChe said he planned to farm until it was all goneSep 10 23:09
DaemonFC:)Sep 10 23:09
DaemonFCin my opinion, you're a wage slave until you've piled up enough money somehow that you'll never have to worry about making any moreSep 10 23:10
DaemonFCtil then you answer to someoneSep 10 23:10
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MinceRwell, it is a form of slaverySep 10 23:11
MinceRor at least a form of lack of freedomSep 10 23:11
MinceRvery few people make it out of thatSep 10 23:11
DaemonFCuntil you have enough money to live the rest of your life not giving a shit what other people say or think of you, you're a wage slaveSep 10 23:11
DaemonFCuntil you never have to do anything anyone else tells you for more money, you're a wage slaveSep 10 23:12
DaemonFCSteve Ballmer isn't a wage slaveSep 10 23:12
schestowitzHe's a tyrantSep 10 23:12
DaemonFCif Microsoft imploded right now he could make it the rest of his life without making any more moneySep 10 23:12
MinceRdo you aspire to be like him, DaemonFC?Sep 10 23:12
schestowitzObama is a wage slave :-pSep 10 23:12
cubezzzhe's a destructo-tron :)Sep 10 23:12
schestowitzHe takes orders from Big BusinessSep 10 23:13
schestowitzHis sponsors for the PR campaignSep 10 23:13
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schestowitzaka "elections"Sep 10 23:13
DaemonFClike I said, the universe rewards crueltySep 10 23:13
MinceRand yes, that's why i advocate that he must be stopped, his money taken away and he must be punishedSep 10 23:13
MinceRhe doesn't deserve one cent of that moneySep 10 23:13
schestowitzCents -- yesSep 10 23:13
DaemonFCthe more you stomp on other people to get ahead, the more money you makeSep 10 23:13
schestowitzIn a big sackSep 10 23:13
schestowitzLike 10,000 of themSep 10 23:13
schestowitzKramer styleSep 10 23:14
MinceRand he owes human society reparations for what he has done so farSep 10 23:14
schestowitzWhen Elaine had that b/f break up w/ herSep 10 23:14
DaemonFCthe more you play nice, follow the rules, etcSep 10 23:14
MinceRDaemonFC: doesn't make it rightSep 10 23:14
DaemonFCthe more you're punishedSep 10 23:14
schestowitzKramer gave him the penniesSep 10 23:14
MinceRDaemonFC: those are different forms of punishment, thoughSep 10 23:14
DaemonFCMinceR: On a certain level, humans respect bullies and tyrantsSep 10 23:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: yes, since coolSep 10 23:14
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MinceRi knowSep 10 23:14
MinceRhumans are generally foolsSep 10 23:15
schestowitzYou comply, you get a good jobSep 10 23:15
schestowitzPromotion depends on compliance and protection of status quo t0oSep 10 23:15
DaemonFCbut on another level, humans enjoy watching big things failSep 10 23:15
schestowitzBut that's only to be exppectedSep 10 23:15
schestowitzNothing fascinating hereSep 10 23:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: USSR?Sep 10 23:15
DaemonFCanythingSep 10 23:15
DaemonFCdoesn't matter whatSep 10 23:16
schestowitzHow about a supernova?Sep 10 23:16
schestowitzGrab a place at the porch.Sep 10 23:16
DaemonFCI meant, companies, organizations, governments, etc.Sep 10 23:16
DaemonFCpeople like watching big things fail because it makes them feel like less of a failure, personallySep 10 23:17
DaemonFCbblSep 10 23:17
schestowitzDaemonFC: nice way of putting itSep 10 23:17
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schestowitzWhat a great day for FOSS..Sep 10 23:18
schestowitzLots of good news and Microsoft erodes fast (not just the Ramji thing)Sep 10 23:18
schestowitzTHey fight while staff quites and parties are made smallerSep 10 23:19
cubezzzwhat's the good news?Sep 10 23:19
schestowitzThey hinge all remaining hope on SP3 of Vista (VIsta 7)Sep 10 23:19
schestowitzcubezzz: I'll post it here in a momentSep 10 23:19
schestowitzI do it in batch modeSep 10 23:19
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schestowitzBrucie with another trollish article, IMHO. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3838186/Sep 10 23:29
MinceRslowly loading one, too :>Sep 10 23:33
schestowitzLots of junk in JSSep 10 23:33
_goblinThats outragous (brucies article)Sep 10 23:33
MinceRand slow webserverSep 10 23:33
MinceRwell, got to get some visitorsSep 10 23:34
_goblinmaybe a comment should be made about MS faithful and homophobia...Sep 10 23:34
MinceRhe can't come up with useful content so he turns to trolling with some old "news"Sep 10 23:34
schestowitzIt gets them hitsSep 10 23:36
_goblin"Despite the obviousness of the evidence, " - First time Ive seen Linux being called sexist.....Ive seen the "unwashed" and "freetard" insults....but not sexist...how the remarks of one man be representative of everyone....You could widen it and say the PC world in general is sexist....Sep 10 23:36
schestowitzThe editor changes headlines tooSep 10 23:36
schestowitzI know cause I worked for himSep 10 23:36
schestowitzPretty much left when the Microsoft ads took all over the siteSep 10 23:36
MinceRiirc this isn't the first time byfield wrote bullshit to troll for hitsSep 10 23:36
schestowitzBlechSep 10 23:36
schestowitzBruce is not all badSep 10 23:36
MinceRyaySep 10 23:37
schestowitzBut he said he'd no longer be pro-FOSSSep 10 23:37
MinceRif i mix shit with water, it won't be all badSep 10 23:37
schestowitzOr necessariily pro-FOSSSep 10 23:37
cubezzzPerens?Sep 10 23:37
MinceRyet i won't drink itSep 10 23:37
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Diablo-D3_goblin: wowSep 10 23:37
schestowitzHe wrote about this in his blogSep 10 23:37
Diablo-D3can I just claim men are sexist?Sep 10 23:37
Diablo-D3because, lets face it, we areSep 10 23:37
MinceRcubezzz: byfieldSep 10 23:37
Diablo-D3we have a penis. we're guilty of having a penis.Sep 10 23:37
cubezzzoh :)Sep 10 23:37
Diablo-D3penises exist to penetrate womenSep 10 23:37
Diablo-D3so clearly we're the bad guySep 10 23:37
MinceRi think byfield's written enough bullshit to be ignored already.Sep 10 23:37
Diablo-D3protip: only angry man hating women use windowsSep 10 23:38
MinceRlolSep 10 23:38
cubezzzhow many women in here?Sep 10 23:38
_goblinmy wife reads the text here.....does that make her one?Sep 10 23:38
MinceRnow is that (angry man)-hating women, angry man-hating women or 'angry man, hating women'? :>Sep 10 23:38
schestowitzcubezzz: I'd better we kept cool on itSep 10 23:38
Diablo-D3if theres any women in here who are offended by what I say, please stop drinking the man hating lesbian flavoraidSep 10 23:38
schestowitzDiablo-D3 has a big monthSep 10 23:39
schestowitz*mouthSep 10 23:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: hopefully far away from a computer... Taylor->Hilf->RamjiSep 10 23:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz yeah, where did the last two end up?Sep 10 23:39
MinceRschestowitz: well, ignoring is a form of "keeping cool", imo :>Sep 10 23:39
Diablo-D3MinceR: angry "man hating" womenSep 10 23:39
schestowitzBad words and sexissm in this channelSep 10 23:39
schestowitzAnd we have some women hereSep 10 23:39
MinceRsexism, where?Sep 10 23:39
Diablo-D3trying to claim the internet is sexist is a tad retarded anyhowSep 10 23:39
Diablo-D3I can't take women who do that seriouslySep 10 23:39
Diablo-D3its almost like typical Republican tacticsSep 10 23:40
Diablo-D3they try to undermine how something is said instead of what is being saidSep 10 23:40
Diablo-D3<obama> I believe people should have health careSep 10 23:40
schestowitzOk, fair nuffSep 10 23:40
schestowitzBut let's keep civil,  OKSep 10 23:40
schestowitz?Sep 10 23:40
Diablo-D3<republicans> ahh! you should believe in god instead!Sep 10 23:40
schestowitzTry to avoid s* and f* word. it repels some peopleSep 10 23:40
Diablo-D3its the same sort of tacticSep 10 23:40
MinceRi doSep 10 23:40
MinceRi believe in myself.Sep 10 23:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard Hilf is in Server and Taylor vanished mysteriouslySep 10 23:41
MinceRso i4i turned out not to be a patent troll after allSep 10 23:42
MinceRm$ can kiss the "high ground" goodbye (even though they never had it)Sep 10 23:42
Diablo-D3who was trying to say linux is sexist anyhow?Sep 10 23:43
MinceRthe enemies of FLOSSSep 10 23:43
Diablo-D3what a bunch of douchesSep 10 23:43
Diablo-D3oh wait! I cant say that! that might be sexist!Sep 10 23:43
MinceR:DSep 10 23:43
Diablo-D3actually, if anything, they need douches to help with that sandy vagina problemSep 10 23:44
MinceRthey can't find arguments with merit so they come up with bullshit like thisSep 10 23:44
MinceRthey won't use that vagina anyway, so why bother?Sep 10 23:44
Diablo-D3MinceR: no wonder they're angrySep 10 23:44
Diablo-D3if I had a vagina, you know damn well I'd be using itSep 10 23:44
schestowitzDiablo-D3: calm downSep 10 23:45
Diablo-D3schestowitz: I... am calm?Sep 10 23:46
_goblinCan we consider that these IRC logs are often quoted and often out of context.....it gives fodder for the trolls....Sep 10 23:46
Diablo-D3Honestly, so?Sep 10 23:46
MinceRso what?Sep 10 23:46
Diablo-D3If they want to quote me, they're free tooSep 10 23:46
MinceRi can quote anything out of contextSep 10 23:46
MinceRthat isn't a great achievementSep 10 23:47
Diablo-D3they just have to realize that I charge license fees on a per line basisSep 10 23:47
MinceRif we wanted to avoid being quoted out of context, we shouldn't ever say anythingSep 10 23:47
_goblinyes but it allows them to distort the truth and further promote their MS cause....Sep 10 23:47
MinceRthey distort the truth anywaySep 10 23:47
Diablo-D3and not reading this statement does not constitute a free passSep 10 23:47
MinceRregardless of what we say or doSep 10 23:47
Diablo-D3also, Roy,.... go watch Fox NewsSep 10 23:47
_goblinCOLA is a very good example......but one of manySep 10 23:47
Diablo-D3statements exist to be taken out of contextSep 10 23:47
MinceRnobody cares about them anywaySep 10 23:48
MinceRwhen they'll have something to say, they'll be welcome to discuss it.Sep 10 23:48
_goblin....I'll leave it there....just my opinion.....Sep 10 23:48
Diablo-D3MinceR: actually, its sorta like Hitler.Sep 10 23:48
Diablo-D3Hitler tried to change the worldSep 10 23:48
Diablo-D3the world ran him over.Sep 10 23:48
MinceRsee, that's what the world should do to m$ tooSep 10 23:49
Diablo-D3This should be a lesson Bill should take to heart.Sep 10 23:49
MinceRit's too late to take to heart for themSep 10 23:49
MinceRit's time for the world to take that lesson to heartSep 10 23:49
Diablo-D3the world does it on it's ownSep 10 23:49
MinceRand run those bastards over alreadySep 10 23:49
Diablo-D3the world goes off in it's own direction at it's own speedSep 10 23:49
MinceRand hurry up because people are suffering.Sep 10 23:49
Diablo-D3you know why FLOSS exists?Sep 10 23:49
Diablo-D3because its the most efficient way of producing software atm.Sep 10 23:50
MinceRto create good software that treats its users and developers ethically?Sep 10 23:50
Diablo-D3the world seeks to do things efficientlySep 10 23:50
Diablo-D3you can either be in the way or you can helpSep 10 23:50
Diablo-D3microsoft is now in the waySep 10 23:50
MinceRor you can stand out of the waySep 10 23:50
Diablo-D3that is one place you cantSep 10 23:51
Diablo-D3everywhere you go, there you are.Sep 10 23:51
MinceRlolSep 10 23:51
Diablo-D3bill should just cut his losses and runSep 10 23:51
MinceRthere still are people who don't even use softwareSep 10 23:52
MinceRthey aren't in the way and they don't helpSep 10 23:52
MinceR(and there are less extreme examples of this)Sep 10 23:52
Diablo-D3its because the world doesnt change as oneSep 10 23:52
Diablo-D3there are areas of the world that are ahead of othersSep 10 23:52
Diablo-D3this will always existSep 10 23:52
Diablo-D3one time, long ago, it was babylonSep 10 23:53
Diablo-D3then, a little later, it was romeSep 10 23:53
Diablo-D3then somewhere else, then somewhere else after thatSep 10 23:53
Diablo-D3now its japan.Sep 10 23:53
MinceRjapan?Sep 10 23:54
Diablo-D3japan is the technological capital of the worldSep 10 23:54
Diablo-D3currently technology is the most efficient method of societySep 10 23:54
Diablo-D3and the focus of what we doSep 10 23:54
Diablo-D3software development is quickly becoming majorily defocused, this may eventually effect the entire industrySep 10 23:55
Diablo-D3ie, floss is a world wide thing, no country owns itSep 10 23:56
Diablo-D3this is why its problematic for microsoftSep 10 23:56
Diablo-D3the "enemy" is everywhereSep 10 23:56
trmancoit's not just because of thatSep 10 23:56
MinceRit's problematic for m$ because they can't destroy it outrightSep 10 23:56
MinceRthere's no company to buySep 10 23:57
Diablo-D3MinceR: its silly for them to trySep 10 23:57
Diablo-D3how do you destroy the world?Sep 10 23:57
Diablo-D3its something a neocon to doSep 10 23:57
Diablo-D3er, would doSep 10 23:57
MinceRthe old dirty tricks don't work and they can't produce anything of valueSep 10 23:57
Diablo-D3neocons try to hold the world backSep 10 23:57
MinceRso does m$Sep 10 23:57
Diablo-D3ms doesntSep 10 23:58
Diablo-D3not in that waySep 10 23:58
Diablo-D3ms tries to push the world in the direction they wantSep 10 23:58
MinceRthey've held technology back for a long timeSep 10 23:58
MinceRwell, that direction is one in which no advancement happensSep 10 23:58
Diablo-D3they havent held it back as sent it in a different directionSep 10 23:58
MinceRand everyone suffers under the rule of m$Sep 10 23:58
Diablo-D3advancement does happen, just nothing useful for usSep 10 23:58
Diablo-D3a true neocon tries to stop all progressionSep 10 23:59
MinceRafter a while it stopsSep 10 23:59
MinceRthey don't need to do anything to stay in control, so they wouldn'tSep 10 23:59
Diablo-D3microsoft tries to find new ways to profitSep 10 23:59
cubezzzright, they are mostly about moneySep 10 23:59
MinceRthose new ways stop being technological once they own the worldSep 10 23:59
MinceRit's a simple case of slave management thenSep 10 23:59
Diablo-D3MinceR: in a waySep 10 23:59
Diablo-D3but microsoft's foundation does not allow thatSep 10 23:59

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