| schestowitz | Good pic? | Sep 18 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | It's animal pr0n | Sep 18 00:03 |
| schestowitz | Nakes bug and lizard | Sep 18 00:03 |
| schestowitz | *naked | Sep 18 00:03 |
| cubezzz | "thick application" there's a term I never saw before | Sep 18 00:05 |
| cubezzz | doing a survey on software development | Sep 18 00:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | as opposed to thin application | Sep 18 00:07 |
| cubezzz | do you develop for Flash, AIR or Silverlight? | Sep 18 00:07 |
| cubezzz | blech :) | Sep 18 00:07 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SiVasR2Gzo&feature=PlayList&p=A3BD2524FE99BD4D&index=0 | Sep 18 00:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | thin applications == webapp, flash on the desktop, silverlight on the desktop, etc | Sep 18 00:07 |
| *cubezzz nods | Sep 18 00:07 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I actually like thin application style development for a lot of apps | Sep 18 00:07 |
| cubezzz | I wonder what "AIR" is though | Sep 18 00:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | flash on the desktop | Sep 18 00:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a stand alone runtime for development on flash-like applications | Sep 18 00:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | silverlight 3 offline apps were created in response to this | Sep 18 00:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | and javafx is in response to that too | Sep 18 00:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: air basically inverts the browser model | Sep 18 00:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | instead of a browser visiting a website, you have browser-like components that exist just to run and display the application | Sep 18 00:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | its actually rather useful for simple apps | Sep 18 00:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | most of those flash games should have been coded as air apps instead | Sep 18 00:10 |
| cubezzz | hmmm | Sep 18 00:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | problem is, underneath, you're still using flash techs | Sep 18 00:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | so its kind of retarded | Sep 18 00:11 |
| cubezzz | Diablo-D3, yeah, I'm not too fond of flash | Sep 18 00:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't like flash because its rather inferior to modern usage of javascript and css | Sep 18 00:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | everything they can do I can do better | Sep 18 00:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the actual heavy shit that some games do should be done with java anyhow | Sep 18 00:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | flash doesn't quite fit anywhere | Sep 18 00:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not good for heavy apps, its not good for enhancing websites | Sep 18 00:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | java is good for all your heavy app needs, ajaxian modern website design is good for all your website needs | Sep 18 00:13 |
| cubezzz | yeah, I guess on linux end there's just java | Sep 18 00:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, mono will eventually have silverlight 3 offline apps, but... | Sep 18 00:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | who the fuck wants to use c# | Sep 18 00:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | its Java Done Wrong (tm) | Sep 18 00:14 |
| cubezzz | this survey refers to "Rich Internet Applications" | Sep 18 00:14 |
| cubezzz | do the microsoft guys use Java much? | Sep 18 00:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft uses java in the form of mono | Sep 18 00:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | <Diablo-D3> its Java Done Wrong (tm) | Sep 18 00:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | er, sorry, in the form of .net | Sep 18 00:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | RIA == air, javafx, silverlight | Sep 18 00:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | you know whats kind of funny though? | Sep 18 00:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | xulrunner could have been an ria framework | Sep 18 00:16 |
| _goblin | lol...just been reading the boycott-boys site......... | Sep 18 00:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | but its not enough | Sep 18 00:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | you could make a nice ria framework on top of xulrunner | Sep 18 00:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | but its kind of pointless | Sep 18 00:16 |
| cubezzz | at least java is quasi-universal | Sep 18 00:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | AIR got it right by using webkit for the html rendering needs | Sep 18 00:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, I'm aware of mozilla prism (a xulrunner-based ria framework), I like to pretend it doesnt exist | Sep 18 00:17 |
| cubezzz | Can one do AIR on Linux? | Sep 18 00:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | maaaaybe | Sep 18 00:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | but you'd essentially be looking at the shit flash already does | Sep 18 00:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | flash on linux is horrid | Sep 18 00:19 |
| trmanco | it's slow | Sep 18 00:19 |
| trmanco | as all flash is | Sep 18 00:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | trmanco: eh | Sep 18 00:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | flash is really fast on linux | Sep 18 00:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | you know why? | Sep 18 00:20 |
| trmanco | fast? | Sep 18 00:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | er on windows | Sep 18 00:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | its fast on windows, you know why? | Sep 18 00:20 |
| trmanco | why is that? | Sep 18 00:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | IT CAN HARDWARE ACCELERATE BLITS | Sep 18 00:20 |
| cubezzz | enlighten us :) | Sep 18 00:20 |
| trmanco | we can do that in ubuntu too | Sep 18 00:20 |
| *gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has left #boycottnovell | Sep 18 00:20 | |
| Diablo-D3 | fucking goddamn idiotic fucking douchebag linux dev for flash is a fucking moron | Sep 18 00:20 |
| trmanco | but you will have to hack on a hidden option | Sep 18 00:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | on a daily basis he reminds me how much I hate him. | Sep 18 00:21 |
| trmanco | don't call him that | Sep 18 00:21 |
| trmanco | I'm sure he works hard | Sep 18 00:21 |
| cubezzz | hate who Diablo-D3? | Sep 18 00:21 |
| cubezzz | the Adobe devs? | Sep 18 00:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: the douche adobe hired to do the linux plugin port | Sep 18 00:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | trmanco: nope, he doesnt | Sep 18 00:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | trmanco: he bitches on his blog "well, flash would do this, but I dont think X can do that" then 50 people comment on his blog on how exactly to do what he wants correctly, AND HE DOESNT DO IT | Sep 18 00:22 |
| trmanco | there was something a couple of week ago on flash and optimizing performance | Sep 18 00:22 |
| trmanco | oh | Sep 18 00:22 |
| trmanco | I don't read his blog | Sep 18 00:22 |
| cubezzz | I'm not too happy with flash either | Sep 18 00:22 |
| cubezzz | all this streaming video on flash so no one can record obviously | Sep 18 00:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | trmanco: basically, it wont enable hardware acceleration of fullscreen unless specific requirements are met | Sep 18 00:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | those requirements have nothing to do with the issue at hand | Sep 18 00:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | and the way hes coded it it'll never work on any existing platform | Sep 18 00:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | not dri, not nvidia, not fglrx | Sep 18 00:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it wont work if compiz is enabled, even though compiz doesnt effect it (he cites a bug that was fixed about 5 years ago) | Sep 18 00:23 |
| cubezzz | well that does explain things | Sep 18 00:26 |
| trmanco | interesting | Sep 18 00:26 |
| *vermilion has quit () | Sep 18 00:27 | |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, the guys a fucking idiot | Sep 18 00:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | especially when we state "but gnash does this completely fine" | Sep 18 00:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | gnash == the foss flash plugin | Sep 18 00:27 |
| cubezzz | I've heard of it | Sep 18 00:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | the only reason I dont use it is because its missing a lot of shit new flash shit uses | Sep 18 00:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | but the underlying design is far superior to what adobe uses | Sep 18 00:28 |
| cubezzz | is gnash good enough for using youtube? | Sep 18 00:29 |
| cubezzz | actually one can just dload the flv video and play it on mplayer | Sep 18 00:32 |
| *PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 18 00:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Moshe Goldfarb cola troll -check him out on comp.alt.linux.advocacy he has some great "evidence" to share with you. LOL. #microsoft #windows | Sep 18 00:37 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1w7KnCrMyI&feature=related | Sep 18 00:40 |
| cubezzz | python script ftw | Sep 18 00:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: no | Sep 18 00:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | gnash cant do h264 in videos yet, for one | Sep 18 00:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | it cant do google finance's graphs yet either | Sep 18 00:42 |
| *Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-73-156.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 00:42 | |
| cubezzz | these surveys are saying more open source questions now | Sep 18 00:43 |
| cubezzz | that's a good sign | Sep 18 00:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, microsoft is taking the competition seriously now :D | Sep 18 00:43 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] changes to #wikipedia reference tags http://is.gd/3omAB holy shit, wikitext might become editable again | Sep 18 00:44 | |
| cubezzz | well it seems to have gone from "Linux is a cancer" to "let's inter-operate" | Sep 18 00:46 |
| schestowitz | Glenn Beck Refers to Obama as Colorless or White < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weUZsIjC7UU&feature=channel > | Sep 18 00:48 |
| cubezzz | ok, now their asking my opinion of microsoft :) | Sep 18 00:48 |
| cubezzz | they're | Sep 18 00:49 |
| _goblin | cubezzz: Its quite tragic to see Microsoft having to grovel to the Opensource community to "get another chance" | Sep 18 00:49 |
| cubezzz | I'm going to put "very unfavourable" :-0 | Sep 18 00:49 |
| cubezzz | it would be interesting to know what the hobbyist programmers are using | Sep 18 00:50 |
| _goblin | cubezzz: I personally have no feelings left for Microsoft, they burned me with Vista, they took my money whilst convincing me any problems were my fault and worse than that when I finally break free I am insulted and trolled by their advocates....thats about as polite as I can be about Microsoft. | Sep 18 00:51 |
| *Balrog__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 18 00:51 | |
| cubezzz | you have feelings, but they're probably not positive :) | Sep 18 00:52 |
| cubezzz | _goblin, some of the people who are trolling I don't think they are microsoft "people" as in microsoft employees | Sep 18 00:53 |
| schestowitz | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6132718/Men-lose-their-minds-speaking-to-pretty-women.html | Sep 18 00:53 |
| _goblin | cubezzz: I agree completely..... | Sep 18 00:53 |
| cubezzz | those people may just be unknowledgeable | Sep 18 00:53 |
| cubezzz | but I've talked to a few microsoft people, and there are a few who seemed reasonable enough | Sep 18 00:54 |
| schestowitz | Ok, i'm bored. gn | Sep 18 00:54 |
| _goblin | cubezzz: I think they are split into three categories, one of which being bored genuine trolls, one being people with a financial interest in the proprietary model and or Microsoft and the third being on the payroll, although that is my opinion.... | Sep 18 00:54 |
| _goblin | gn | Sep 18 00:54 |
| cubezzz | later | Sep 18 00:54 |
| *schestowitz gives channel operator status to cubezzz | Sep 18 00:54 | |
| _goblin | youre da man cubezzz! | Sep 18 00:54 |
| cubezzz | w00ts | Sep 18 00:54 |
| cubezzz | one of my friends wants to become microsoft employed | Sep 18 00:55 |
| cubezzz | but I don't argue with him, he just wants a job | Sep 18 00:55 |
| _goblin | thats fair enough.... | Sep 18 00:56 |
| _goblin | you can't blame people for wanting to earn a living. | Sep 18 00:56 |
| cubezzz | we were commodore bros in the old days :) | Sep 18 00:56 |
| _goblin | hey....Commodore! Amiga or 64? | Sep 18 00:56 |
| _goblin | or 128 | Sep 18 00:56 |
| cubezzz | everything except plus4 | Sep 18 00:56 |
| _goblin | ah | Sep 18 00:57 |
| _goblin | a500 for me, before that I was a spectrum boy! | Sep 18 00:57 |
| _goblin | and before that....zx81 | Sep 18 00:57 |
| cubezzz | you are still in UK _goblin? | Sep 18 00:58 |
| _goblin | yep | Sep 18 00:58 |
| _goblin | SE about 30miles from London | Sep 18 00:58 |
| _goblin | nr Luton. | Sep 18 00:58 |
| cubezzz | I don't think I ever saw Spectrum over here | Sep 18 00:58 |
| _goblin | I think it was big in the UK...but then so was the C64... | Sep 18 00:59 |
| _goblin | where you from? | Sep 18 00:59 |
| cubezzz | you remember Zap magazine? | Sep 18 00:59 |
| _goblin | yep | Sep 18 00:59 |
| cubezzz | I'm in Oshawa Ontario, close to Toronto | Sep 18 00:59 |
| cubezzz | we had commodore in the schools for a while here | Sep 18 01:00 |
| cubezzz | of course it's all gone now | Sep 18 01:00 |
| _goblin | Its a shame the Amiga legacy never continued....the A4000 was a damn nice piece of kit... | Sep 18 01:01 |
| cubezzz | yeah, I see them on ebay now and then | Sep 18 01:01 |
| _goblin | and its AGA chipset had 2d sorted.... | Sep 18 01:01 |
| cubezzz | Linux on Amiga 4000 would be cool :) | Sep 18 01:01 |
| _goblin | I have to be content with Amiga on Linux nowadays (since my a1200 broke) | Sep 18 01:02 |
| cubezzz | not sure what my opinion is on Oracle, I'll put "not sure" | Sep 18 01:02 |
| cubezzz | _goblin, you still using Amiga? | Sep 18 01:02 |
| _goblin | sort of... | Sep 18 01:02 |
| _goblin | hobbyist demo scene stuff | Sep 18 01:02 |
| _goblin | devpac 2 - my package of choice. | Sep 18 01:03 |
| cubezzz | for hobby stuff I hack around on this old zaurus | Sep 18 01:03 |
| _goblin | assembly dev was so much simpler in those days.... | Sep 18 01:04 |
| _goblin | and now as I always do I start to mourn "the good old days" | Sep 18 01:04 |
| _goblin | ....sob.... | Sep 18 01:04 |
| _goblin | Fairlight, RSI, Skidrow, Cryonics.... | Sep 18 01:04 |
| _goblin | Budbrain...... | Sep 18 01:05 |
| cubezzz | well c64 was easy to get into | Sep 18 01:05 |
| cubezzz | Amiga was harder, and now.... things are pretty complicated | Sep 18 01:05 |
| ThistleWeb | I believe the spectrum was pretty much a UK thing | Sep 18 01:05 |
| ThistleWeb | all rubber keys and logical "j is short for Load" | Sep 18 01:06 |
| ThistleWeb | where the L key would make too much sense | Sep 18 01:06 |
| _goblin | and " was located on the P key..... | Sep 18 01:06 |
| cubezzz | load "$",8 ;-) | Sep 18 01:06 |
| _goblin | "A" key = "new" (soft reset) | Sep 18 01:06 |
| _goblin | rem | Sep 18 01:07 |
| _goblin | line numbers | Sep 18 01:07 |
| _goblin | changing the cursor to an "E" | Sep 18 01:07 |
| _goblin | ah the memories.... | Sep 18 01:07 |
| cubezzz | the original abasic for amiga had line numbers | Sep 18 01:07 |
| ThistleWeb | all my mates had either spectrums or c64's....I got an amstrad 6128....the one with the dic drive | Sep 18 01:07 |
| ThistleWeb | disc* | Sep 18 01:07 |
| _goblin | yes but not like this....it wasn't an editor environment like Amiga basic.... | Sep 18 01:07 |
| cubezzz | I did the C thing on Amiga, didn't even use the basic stuff | Sep 18 01:08 |
| ThistleWeb | all because my parents didnt want me using the main TV to play games and they didnt want me to have a TV in my bedroom | Sep 18 01:08 |
| _goblin | if you wanted to go back and edit a line you had to..............actually what did you have to do? Ive forgotten... | Sep 18 01:08 |
| _goblin | Thistleweb: Can you remember how you edited a line number in spectrum BASIC? | Sep 18 01:08 |
| cubezzz | then you bought a 1701 monitor, that was living :) | Sep 18 01:08 |
| ThistleWeb | _goblin: I never tried any of that stuff, I was simply a gamer | Sep 18 01:10 |
| _goblin | cubezzz: I bet you never saw the spectrum thermal printer.....the most useless printer in the galaxy...printed on paper the width of toilet roll. | Sep 18 01:10 |
| cubezzz | _goblin, commodore had one of those too | Sep 18 01:10 |
| cubezzz | no, I never saw a sepctrum thermal printer, you are right :) | Sep 18 01:10 |
| cubezzz | spectrum | Sep 18 01:10 |
| _goblin | cubezzz: and the light pen which was laggier than Vista....... | Sep 18 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | I did try to type in a couple of smaller games from magazines but they never worked | Sep 18 01:11 |
| cubezzz | thermal printers are still in use | Sep 18 01:11 |
| _goblin | thistleweb: yep I remember those...... | Sep 18 01:11 |
| cubezzz | at grocery stores | Sep 18 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | _goblin: do you remember IK+ on the amiga? | Sep 18 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | that was awesome | Sep 18 01:11 |
| _goblin | oh yes | Sep 18 01:11 |
| cubezzz | I wrote a cube program for every computer I owned naturally :) | Sep 18 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | I loved that game | Sep 18 01:11 |
| _goblin | Internation Karate | Sep 18 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | yep | Sep 18 01:11 |
| ThistleWeb | 3 fighters | Sep 18 01:11 |
| _goblin | and Ye Ar Kung FU on the speccy... | Sep 18 01:12 |
| ThistleWeb | very fast moving | Sep 18 01:12 |
| cubezzz | how about Impossible Mission? | Sep 18 01:12 |
| _goblin | yeah...... | Sep 18 01:12 |
| _goblin | and the best gfx/sfx in an Amiga game (at the time)....Shadow of the beast. | Sep 18 01:12 |
| _goblin | Cubezzz: I hope you are using E-UAE.... | Sep 18 01:13 |
| ThistleWeb | if I remember right there was some cheat that you could do to make you're opponants belt fail and his trousers drop, forcing him to bend down and pull them back up, and giving you a stationary traget to hit | Sep 18 01:13 |
| _goblin | lol.... | Sep 18 01:13 |
| cubezzz | UAE? Yes, I have it | Sep 18 01:14 |
| cubezzz | my amiga disks went bad on me though | Sep 18 01:14 |
| cubezzz | so I have to type in all my source code and recompile :-/ | Sep 18 01:14 |
| _goblin | remember AMOS.....? | Sep 18 01:15 |
| _goblin | God we hated AMOS users........ | Sep 18 01:15 |
| _goblin | apparently that matured into Darkbasic on the PC. | Sep 18 01:15 |
| ThistleWeb | other than IK+ the only real standout for me during my admittedly short amiga time was Microprose Grand Prix | Sep 18 01:15 |
| cubezzz | I remember super snapshot, but that was c64 | Sep 18 01:15 |
| ThistleWeb | drop the detail level right down and that game flew | Sep 18 01:16 |
| _goblin | I had a long affair with the AGA version of Frontier..... | Sep 18 01:16 |
| _goblin | and of course Dungeon Master | Sep 18 01:16 |
| cubezzz | _goblin, there is still http://softhut.com for amiga stuff | Sep 18 01:16 |
| cubezzz | they are still in business | Sep 18 01:17 |
| cubezzz | Amiga isn't completely dead | Sep 18 01:17 |
| ThistleWeb | it's just having a lie down | Sep 18 01:17 |
| ThistleWeb | it's getting better | Sep 18 01:17 |
| _goblin | yeah....Ive a catweasel myself... | Sep 18 01:17 |
| ThistleWeb | it thinks it'll go for a walk soon | Sep 18 01:17 |
| _goblin | although most of my stuff is in .adf | Sep 18 01:17 |
| _goblin | I have no real need for floppy reading anymore. | Sep 18 01:18 |
| cubezzz | I'm porting my own Amiga progs to Linux | Sep 18 01:18 |
| _goblin | sweet...I had so many projects I wanted to get done....at the moment I just don't have the time with work..... | Sep 18 01:18 |
| _goblin | I would like to finish a demo I started about a year ago..... | Sep 18 01:19 |
| ThistleWeb | remember the 4 disc animated movie on the amiga? | Sep 18 01:20 |
| _goblin | the scene has changed so much though since the Amiga...... | Sep 18 01:20 |
| _goblin | which one? | Sep 18 01:20 |
| ThistleWeb | cant remember the name, but it looked like a space artoon | Sep 18 01:20 |
| ThistleWeb | cartoon* | Sep 18 01:20 |
| _goblin | Space Ace | Sep 18 01:20 |
| _goblin | the game.... | Sep 18 01:20 |
| ThistleWeb | sounds right | Sep 18 01:20 |
| _goblin | Don Bluef | Sep 18 01:20 |
| ThistleWeb | no, a movie | Sep 18 01:20 |
| ThistleWeb | non-interactove | Sep 18 01:20 |
| cubezzz | all this was Linux: http://cubeman.org/wireframe.html | Sep 18 01:20 |
| _goblin | a movie game...like dragonslair....? | Sep 18 01:20 |
| ThistleWeb | no, it wasnt a game | Sep 18 01:21 |
| _goblin | ah | Sep 18 01:21 |
| ThistleWeb | you couldnt play it | Sep 18 01:21 |
| _goblin | pass then... | Sep 18 01:21 |
| ThistleWeb | just watch | Sep 18 01:21 |
| _goblin | unless it was a demo for Space Ace | Sep 18 01:21 |
| ThistleWeb | 4 discs, sound with subtitles at parts | Sep 18 01:21 |
| ThistleWeb | it lasted like 45mins to watch | Sep 18 01:21 |
| _goblin | "Space Ace, defender of justice truth of the planet earth......Ace is being attacked by the Evil Commander borf" | Sep 18 01:21 |
| _goblin | ah | Sep 18 01:21 |
| _goblin | its not space ace then..... | Sep 18 01:22 |
| ThistleWeb | it'd get so far then tell you to insert disc 2 etc | Sep 18 01:22 |
| cubezzz | I tried the arcade one | Sep 18 01:22 |
| _goblin | the demo was only about 2 mins... | Sep 18 01:22 |
| cubezzz | laserdisc games didn't last very long | Sep 18 01:22 |
| ThistleWeb | it was like a show off for the amiga when you had mates round | Sep 18 01:22 |
| _goblin | RSI Megademo was the demo that sold me an amiga. | Sep 18 01:22 |
| _goblin | http://www.demoscene.tv/page.php?id=172&lang=uk&vsmaction=view_prod&id_prod=8996 | Sep 18 01:23 |
| cubezzz | I don't miss the guru mediations :) | Sep 18 01:25 |
| ThistleWeb | one of my old school mates was one of the biggest amiga warez distributers in the area, so I got lots of new amiga stuff from him with just a phone call to check if he was in | Sep 18 01:26 |
| ThistleWeb | not long after that we fell out for other reasons, I've not spoken to him since | Sep 18 01:26 |
| cubezzz | I paid for Pipe Dream | Sep 18 01:26 |
| _goblin | right Im off for the night....0129 here in the uk.................. | Sep 18 01:27 |
| cubezzz | nite | Sep 18 01:27 |
| _goblin | great chat! | Sep 18 01:27 |
| _goblin | gn | Sep 18 01:27 |
| ThistleWeb | cya _goblin | Sep 18 01:27 |
| zlg | Did you run GOMF on your A500 ? | Sep 18 01:27 |
| *_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 18 01:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] WTF has happened to a lot of people's twitter icons? #iconalypse | Sep 18 01:27 | |
| ThistleWeb | one annoying amiga design flaw I thought was the modulator, they ALWAYS went faulty, where you had to prop it up with magazines, tape cases etc just to play your machine without the screen glickering | Sep 18 01:28 |
| cubezzz | GOMF? I don't think so | Sep 18 01:28 |
| ThistleWeb | the A600 had the modulator built in, so I guess they took that on board | Sep 18 01:28 |
| cubezzz | I think I used a monitor, 1084 maybe | Sep 18 01:29 |
| cubezzz | RF modulator | Sep 18 01:29 |
| zlg | yes, I remember having some problems like that, | Sep 18 01:29 |
| cubezzz | no RF modulator | Sep 18 01:29 |
| zlg | on my A500 | Sep 18 01:29 |
| ThistleWeb | I worked in a store selling them at the time, and we had LOTS of them go with that fault | Sep 18 01:30 |
| zlg | but not often, it was a reliable best, and I did not get many Guru's from membery, some not many | Sep 18 01:30 |
| ThistleWeb | it was rare to find one which worked fine for a prolonged period and didn't give problems | Sep 18 01:30 |
| ThistleWeb | not so much the modulators going faulty, but the connection to the device | Sep 18 01:31 |
| zlg | I think my floppy failed, so I had to modify a 3.5inch PC one for it. | Sep 18 01:31 |
| ThistleWeb | it got loose | Sep 18 01:31 |
| zlg | Yes, mine was the connect, you would lose a colour | Sep 18 01:31 |
| cubezzz | the earliest demo I can remember is the Kinnersley rubik's cube demo from 1986 | Sep 18 01:31 |
| zlg | I liked to play Elite :D | Sep 18 01:31 |
| cubezzz | Fish Disk #29 :) | Sep 18 01:31 |
| ThistleWeb | so you had to tell peeps DON'T TOUCH THE AMIGA!!!! in case it nudged it and you had to pause your game and fiddle for five mins to get the picture to be in colour and stop flickering | Sep 18 01:32 |
| cubezzz | well the power supply was weak too | Sep 18 01:32 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah the power supply was another common issue | Sep 18 01:32 |
| cubezzz | no MMU on the Amiga 500 either | Sep 18 01:33 |
| zlg | Yes, thats true, mine was purchased in the US so was 115volts, we have 240 in Aus, so I used to run mine on a huge variac. | Sep 18 01:33 |
| ThistleWeb | it was annoying to have to unplug the mouse to plug a second joystick in when your mates came round | Sep 18 01:33 |
| zlg | No, the lack of MMU in the 6800x0 CPU's was an issue, and caused the Guru meditations | Sep 18 01:33 |
| cubezzz | I don't think anyone tried Linux on Amiga 500 for that reason | Sep 18 01:34 |
| ThistleWeb | it's odd, when you got used to gaming with a joystick, swicthing to a joypad on a console felt odd. Now I couldn't use a joystick, the pad just feels more natural | Sep 18 01:34 |
| ThistleWeb | I'd guess some games would suit a joystick, like flight sims | Sep 18 01:34 |
| zlg | Im trying to remeber the chipset used in it, there was a graphics and sound one by certain names. | Sep 18 01:35 |
| ThistleWeb | that reminds me of the microswitches in joysticks which would click with every move | Sep 18 01:35 |
| zlg | I remember bobs and sprites when programming the A500 | Sep 18 01:35 |
| cubezzz | angus, paula and another one :) | Sep 18 01:35 |
| zlg | Fat angus, yes LOL | Sep 18 01:35 |
| ThistleWeb | very reliable but hella annoying when you're playing in a quiet room | Sep 18 01:36 |
| cubezzz | kraft joystick ftw :) | Sep 18 01:36 |
| ThistleWeb | you did get some quality cheap joysticks then | Sep 18 01:36 |
| ThistleWeb | hard wearing (unless you have a taste for Olympics style games) | Sep 18 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm convinced these games are funded by joystick makers | Sep 18 01:37 |
| ThistleWeb | so you get a new game which destroys your joystick in a week and you have to go buy a new one | Sep 18 01:38 |
| zlg | considering it was a what 12Mhz 68020, with feature righ graphics and sound, Kernel in ROM and OS on a 3.5in sigle disk it was way ahead of it's time. | Sep 18 01:38 |
| cubezzz | Angus, Paula and Lisa I think were the chip names | Sep 18 01:38 |
| ThistleWeb | I refused to have these type of games on my system for that reason | Sep 18 01:38 |
| cubezzz | amiga was special yes | Sep 18 01:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] outlaws often choose a life of crime from ... incompetence. http://is.gd/3opaZ | Sep 18 01:40 | |
| cubezzz | Gary, gary was also a chip :) | Sep 18 01:42 |
| zlg | Yes, that sounds right, it's a damn shame it did not continue to evolve, as well as the 680x0 CPU line. | Sep 18 01:44 |
| ThistleWeb | Gary was also a dickhead, but I'm guessing it's a different Gary we're talking about lol | Sep 18 01:45 |
| cubezzz | well the chip did overheat :) | Sep 18 01:45 |
| cubezzz | well motorola divested itself from the cpu business | Sep 18 01:46 |
| zlg | I think Macs were 68000 based in those days as well. | Sep 18 01:46 |
| cubezzz | zlg, mac and sega genesis too | Sep 18 01:46 |
| zlg | they are still used alot in embedded applications. | Sep 18 01:47 |
| zlg | in some area's not phone and things | Sep 18 01:47 |
| zlg | SM&I | Sep 18 01:48 |
| cubezzz | I see mostly ARM nowadays | Sep 18 01:48 |
| zlg | Yes, | Sep 18 01:48 |
| zlg | the same Z80 CPU core in the TRS-80 is what is used in GameBoys :) | Sep 18 01:50 |
| zlg | and aircraft flight data recorders | Sep 18 01:50 |
| cubezzz | z80 is very old tech | Sep 18 01:51 |
| zlg | 4004, 8008, 8080, 8080 and PIO, CIA... Z80 (all compined), 4004 was a calculator chip. | Sep 18 01:52 |
| *Balrog_ has quit () | Sep 18 01:53 | |
| zlg | space invader machine was Z80 | Sep 18 01:54 |
| cubezzz | Intel | Sep 18 01:56 |
| cubezzz | 8080 | Sep 18 01:56 |
| cubezzz | not zilog | Sep 18 01:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] how to get television competing with the internet http://is.gd/3opY0 next will be viruses and spam | Sep 18 01:56 | |
| zlg | Me and a fellow called Craig southeren http://csoutheren.users.sourceforge.net/ used to hack 2650 and Z80 CPU in the 70's | Sep 18 01:57 |
| zlg | he hacked, I looked on in AWE... lol | Sep 18 01:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] my twitter icon is back. all is well with the world. by the way, you can put references somewhere *sensible* on wikipedia now. | Sep 18 02:08 | |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.69.216) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 02:44 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi senior schestowitz ! | Sep 18 02:44 |
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| cubezzz | zlg, that URL doesn't work | Sep 18 03:21 |
| cubezzz | hmmm, how to I get cos tan and the like on arm | Sep 18 03:24 |
| cubezzz | no FPU on zaurus maybe? | Sep 18 03:25 |
| cubezzz | er, or just use -lm :) | Sep 18 03:26 |
| cubezzz | ok, let's see how fast zaurus benchmarks | Sep 18 03:26 |
| twitter1 | what is it, bison? | Sep 18 03:27 |
| twitter1 | bc | Sep 18 03:28 |
| twitter1 | that's the arbitrary precision calculator. it should work on ARM | Sep 18 03:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | bc works on fpuless machines fine | Sep 18 03:28 |
| cubezzz | twitter1, no I was trying to compile whets.c | Sep 18 03:28 |
| cubezzz | for benchmarking zaurus | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Balrog_ | bison is the yacc-compatible parser generator | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: whetstone is a fp benchmark | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | you want dhrystone | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Balrog_ | (aka compiler-compiler) | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | dhrystone is the integer version of whetstone | Sep 18 03:29 |
| twitter1 | yeah, bc is something to get cos tan and the like on arm | Sep 18 03:29 |
| cubezzz | Diablo-D3, I want to test both | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | but your ARM doesnt have an FPU does it? | Sep 18 03:29 |
| twitter1 | you might just generate random numbers | Sep 18 03:29 |
| cubezzz | I'm not sure actually | Sep 18 03:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | if it doesnt it obviously wont work | Sep 18 03:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | it'll just use the software emulation path | Sep 18 03:30 |
| cubezzz | hmmm | Sep 18 03:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | assuming your arm environment has it | Sep 18 03:30 |
| cubezzz | well it's arm 1100 I think | Sep 18 03:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | what device? | Sep 18 03:31 |
| cubezzz | SA-1100 in zaurus sl-5500 | Sep 18 03:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | an intel strongarm | Sep 18 03:32 |
| cubezzz | it's running whets | Sep 18 03:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | its an arm7 | Sep 18 03:33 |
| cubezzz | ok, I don't think it has an FPU :) | Sep 18 03:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | lol that was used in the apple newton | Sep 18 03:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | well, the sa-110 was | Sep 18 03:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | the sa-1100 was a smaller version but same cpu | Sep 18 03:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | nope, no fpu | Sep 18 03:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | in fact, its rather a POS | Sep 18 03:36 |
| cubezzz | well, it's just a PDA after all | Sep 18 03:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, but look at, say, the iphone 3gs | Sep 18 03:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | like 100 times more power =P | Sep 18 03:36 |
| twitter1 | apcalc? | Sep 18 03:37 |
| twitter1 | http://www.isthe.com/chongo/tech/comp/calc/ | Sep 18 03:37 |
| cubezzz | ok, well at least I know it doesn't have a FPU | Sep 18 03:38 |
| twitter1 | ok | Sep 18 03:39 |
| cubezzz | good enough for integer stuff | Sep 18 03:40 |
| twitter1 | I donno, I use my Handspring Visor's calculator all day long. | Sep 18 03:44 |
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| twitter1 | Microsoft Exchange is a piece of shit. | Sep 18 04:04 |
| twitter1 | the web interface is insulting and takes forever to serve simple text. | Sep 18 04:04 |
| cubezzz | Dhrystones per Second: 268817.2 | Sep 18 04:05 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter1 as always, using and promoting Windows Software | Sep 18 04:07 |
| _Hicham_ | hi twitter1 | Sep 18 04:07 |
| twitter1 | it's not my idea to use it | Sep 18 04:07 |
| cubezzz | lol | Sep 18 04:08 |
| cubezzz | he's not promoting it :) | Sep 18 04:08 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter1 : I will wipe proprietary software off the planet | Sep 18 04:09 |
| twitter1 | it will go away on it's own, _Hicham_ | Sep 18 04:09 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter1 : it needs a lot of time without massive action | Sep 18 04:11 |
| _Hicham_ | I see Ubuntu and Mozilla examples as good ones | Sep 18 04:12 |
| _Hicham_ | marketing is the key | Sep 18 04:12 |
| twitter1 | there is massive action going on, these little things called the free and open source movements | Sep 18 04:12 |
| _Hicham_ | there is a massive action also made by MS | Sep 18 04:21 |
| _Hicham_ | and its shills | Sep 18 04:21 |
| twitter1 | Someone at work was sleepwalking through the usual Windows siren song. | Sep 18 04:27 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter1 is deeply in love with Windows | Sep 18 04:28 |
| twitter1 | "this one is pee cee based, not propitiatory like Unix" "friendlier, more intuitive interface" | Sep 18 04:28 |
| _Hicham_ | Windows is his babe | Sep 18 04:28 |
| *twitter1 ignores _Hicham_ again, sigh | Sep 18 04:28 | |
| cubezzz | twitter1, that just sounds like gibberish | Sep 18 04:29 |
| _Hicham_ | Will Hill the Shill | Sep 18 04:29 |
| twitter1 | it is gibberish | Sep 18 04:29 |
| cubezzz | what was he even talking about? :) | Sep 18 04:29 |
| twitter1 | but something the M$ people have been using for years. | Sep 18 04:29 |
| twitter1 | a piece of medical equipment that's a little difficult to learn but that's been working without a problem for about a decade. | Sep 18 04:30 |
| cubezzz | not proprietary? | Sep 18 04:30 |
| cubezzz | he's comparing windows to unix I suppose? | Sep 18 04:30 |
| twitter1 | yes, it seems that word only applies to Unix for some reason. Windows is "open" "off the shelf" or some other nonsense like that | Sep 18 04:31 |
| twitter1 | it's a big double think | Sep 18 04:31 |
| cubezzz | it's positively Orwellian :) | Sep 18 04:31 |
| twitter1 | I pointed out that now is not the best time to buy anything Windows based - it's going to depend on XP, which is being killed. | Sep 18 04:32 |
| cubezzz | I think part of the problem is he has no experience using Linux | Sep 18 04:32 |
| cubezzz | or Unix even | Sep 18 04:32 |
| twitter1 | that is a big part of the problem, and he did not want to learn anything else. the difficulty of keeping up with windows leaves these people without a spare moment. | Sep 18 04:33 |
| twitter1 | right | Sep 18 04:33 |
| twitter1 | I pointed out to him that his company's machine had worked without problem for years. | Sep 18 04:33 |
| twitter1 | and that I was sure that they would be able to support it years into the future | Sep 18 04:33 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft will extend its support for XP beyond 2013 | Sep 18 04:34 |
| _Hicham_ | wasn't that the official EOL of XP ? | Sep 18 04:34 |
| cubezzz | I was in a government building a while ago and I asked "How many machines here do not run windows" | Sep 18 04:34 |
| cubezzz | and the answer was zero | Sep 18 04:35 |
| cubezzz | that's Canada for you :-/ | Sep 18 04:35 |
| twitter1 | the practical thing to do with Windows stuff right now is wait and see. If M$ succeeds in pushing Vista/Windows 7, the XP stuff will be a huge support pain. If M$ does not manage to push Vista, M$ will have better problems and it's time to move on to other platforms. | Sep 18 04:35 |
| _Hicham_ | French Parliament has adopted Ubuntu | Sep 18 04:35 |
| _Hicham_ | years ago | Sep 18 04:35 |
| _Hicham_ | and Germany is moving | Sep 18 04:35 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't remember the project | Sep 18 04:35 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is still going | Sep 18 04:35 |
| cubezzz | Europe is doing better than us, yes | Sep 18 04:37 |
| cubezzz | Canada is too close to Redmond | Sep 18 04:37 |
| _Hicham_ | where do u live ? Vancouver ? | Sep 18 04:38 |
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| _Hicham_ | wb wallclimber | Sep 18 04:38 |
| wallclimber | Hi, how are you? | Sep 18 04:38 |
| cubezzz | Ontario, close to Toronto | Sep 18 04:38 |
| cubezzz | hi wallclimber | Sep 18 04:38 |
| wallclimber | hi! :) | Sep 18 04:38 |
| _Hicham_ | wallclimber : no more laptops to fix ? | Sep 18 04:38 |
| cubezzz | not super close to Redmond, but Canada isn't far enough away | Sep 18 04:39 |
| wallclimber | I sent it home, it's running fine now | Sep 18 04:39 |
| wallclimber | till next time. | Sep 18 04:39 |
| twitter1 | Redmond is too close to me. No Windows stuff in my house. | Sep 18 04:39 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter1 is a confirmed MS shill, so nobody trust him | Sep 18 04:40 |
| _Hicham_ | he is always taking beers with MS staff | Sep 18 04:40 |
| cubezzz | I can't compile any of these ancient dhrystone programs | Sep 18 04:40 |
| cubezzz | it seems like no one has written one since the 80's | Sep 18 04:41 |
| _Hicham_ | where are those programs cubezzz ? | Sep 18 04:41 |
| cubezzz | ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/benchmark/aburto/dhrystone/dhry21a.c | Sep 18 04:41 |
| _Hicham_ | cubezzz : what are those programs for ? | Sep 18 04:44 |
| cubezzz | benchmark cpu | Sep 18 04:44 |
| _Hicham_ | i think there is better programs for that | Sep 18 04:45 |
| _Hicham_ | I ve seen one on ubuntu | Sep 18 04:45 |
| cubezzz | I just want plain linux | Sep 18 04:45 |
| _Hicham_ | cubezzz : it compiled fine for me | Sep 18 04:45 |
| _Hicham_ | with just two warnings | Sep 18 04:45 |
| _Hicham_ | gcc -DUNIX -O2 dhry21a.c dhry21b.c timers_b.c -o dhry21 | Sep 18 04:46 |
| _Hicham_ | dhry21a.c:34: warning: conflicting types for built-in function ‘malloc’ | Sep 18 04:46 |
| _Hicham_ | dhry21a.c: In function ‘main’: | Sep 18 04:46 |
| _Hicham_ | dhry21a.c:90: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘exit’ | Sep 18 04:46 |
| _Hicham_ | dhry21a.c:100: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘strcpy’ | Sep 18 04:46 |
| _Hicham_ | if u add <stdlib.h> and <string.h> and comment extern char *malloc(), | Sep 18 04:48 |
| _Hicham_ | u will get no warnings at all | Sep 18 04:48 |
| _Hicham_ | cubezzz : u here? | Sep 18 04:49 |
| cubezzz | yes, I see | Sep 18 04:49 |
| cubezzz | I was missing parts, duh | Sep 18 04:50 |
| _Hicham_ | download the whole directory | Sep 18 04:50 |
| _Hicham_ | and type make | Sep 18 04:50 |
| _Hicham_ | after making the changes i mentioned | Sep 18 04:50 |
| cubezzz | ok, good | Sep 18 04:52 |
| cubezzz | thank you | Sep 18 04:52 |
| cubezzz | arm-linux-gcc -DUNIX -O2 dhry21a.c dhry21b.c timers_b.c -o dhry21 | Sep 18 04:54 |
| cubezzz | that does what I want | Sep 18 04:54 |
| cubezzz | p3 550 = 269541.8 | Sep 18 04:56 |
| cubezzz | oops | Sep 18 04:56 |
| cubezzz | zaurus = 269541.8 | Sep 18 04:56 |
| cubezzz | p3 550 = 992063.5 | Sep 18 04:56 |
| cubezzz | p3 is 3.68 times as fast as zaurus | Sep 18 04:57 |
| cubezzz | so strongarm running at 206 mhz, vs p3 550 mhz | Sep 18 04:59 |
| cubezzz | it seems like the p3 should be more than 3.68 times as fast | Sep 18 05:00 |
| twitter1 | hmmm. someone has oral sex on their mind http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1368047&cid=29422579 | Sep 18 05:19 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter1 is mentioned everywhere | Sep 18 05:28 |
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| jbc | hello | Sep 18 05:29 |
| jbc | can any1 help me with excel VBA? | Sep 18 05:29 |
| _Hicham_ | ha ha | Sep 18 05:29 |
| _Hicham_ | I have once worked on PowerPoint VBA | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | lol | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | is it the same? | Sep 18 05:30 |
| _Hicham_ | yeah, it is the same | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | i got an assignment | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | need some help | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | lol | Sep 18 05:30 |
| _Hicham_ | but since there is no one in here using Windows | Sep 18 05:30 |
| _Hicham_ | u won't get much help | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | ooo | Sep 18 05:30 |
| jbc | mac? here? | Sep 18 05:31 |
| jbc | linux? | Sep 18 05:31 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux | Sep 18 05:31 |
| jbc | aaa | Sep 18 05:31 |
| jbc | is tere a channel for windows? | Sep 18 05:31 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know | Sep 18 05:32 |
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| ThistleWeb | that was funny | Sep 18 05:36 |
| _Hicham_ | ThistleWeb : what was funny ? | Sep 18 05:37 |
| ThistleWeb | why in the hell would he even think this was the place to come for that help | Sep 18 05:37 |
| ThistleWeb | unless it as a joke | Sep 18 05:37 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know | Sep 18 05:37 |
| ThistleWeb | the vba help | Sep 18 05:37 |
| _Hicham_ | I would have helped him | Sep 18 05:37 |
| _Hicham_ | but not with an MS product | Sep 18 05:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | [12:00:09] <cubezzz> p3 is 3.68 times as fast as zaurus | Sep 18 05:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | [12:02:16] <cubezzz> so strongarm running at 206 mhz, vs p3 550 mhz | Sep 18 05:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | [12:02:37] <cubezzz> it seems like the p3 should be more than 3.68 times as fast | Sep 18 05:37 |
| _Hicham_ | even though I have done some VBA before | Sep 18 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats kinda sad. | Sep 18 05:38 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : why ? | Sep 18 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | the p3 uses more than 3.68 times more power. | Sep 18 05:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | and they're about roughly the same age too | Sep 18 05:39 |
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| _Hicham_ | Intel is interested in wasting power | Sep 18 05:45 |
| _Hicham_ | like all american companies | Sep 18 05:45 |
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| zlg | there is always a tradeoff between processing power, CPU speed and power. | Sep 18 06:16 |
| fewa | zlg, some architectures are inherently more efficient however | Sep 18 06:16 |
| zlg | yes, very true, determines how many CPU cycles are required or a particular function, and as you said some architectures are just better (for power comsumption) | Sep 18 06:19 |
| fewa | This is why architectures like ARM will eventually win | Sep 18 06:19 |
| fewa | zlg, not just CPU cycles | Sep 18 06:19 |
| fewa | if you can design a processor without pipelining then it can be much more efficient | Sep 18 06:19 |
| fewa | be designed with much more freedoms | Sep 18 06:19 |
| fewa | x86 is an inherantly inefficient architecture, and as manufacturing prices and yields go down, and electricity prices go up, x86 will be unable to compete | Sep 18 06:20 |
| zlg | yes and no, pipelining is a way of increasing or improving the CPU cycles you have, like pre-emptive, and VLIW processores | Sep 18 06:20 |
| fewa | But you cant have perfectly scaled power management with pipelining | Sep 18 06:21 |
| fewa | a ARM cpu only uses the power it requires to do the job | Sep 18 06:21 |
| zlg | x86 is old, | Sep 18 06:21 |
| fewa | if you have a more powerful ARM cpu it will use the same amount of electricity as a low power ARM cpu when doing the same thing at the same rate | Sep 18 06:22 |
| zlg | they are still basically von numan | Sep 18 06:22 |
| fewa | while x86 processors are generally either on, or off, and frequency scaling is a very kluggy process | Sep 18 06:22 |
| zlg | yes, agreed, I dont know how well they really SMP either compared to some other families | Sep 18 06:23 |
| fewa | Any system that relys on x86 will user more elctricity and have less battery life than a system that can run on new architectures | Sep 18 06:23 |
| fewa | *more efficient, and better designed | Sep 18 06:23 |
| fewa | If anything else does not kill Windows this will | Sep 18 06:23 |
| fewa | natural selection | Sep 18 06:24 |
| *cubezzz2 is now known as cubezzz | Sep 18 06:26 | |
| zlg | I still think there is a great deal of mileage in the x86 CPU family yet, I think long gone are the days where CPU performance is really a big issue I come from the days of 8MhzAT and "turbo buttons" I dont even know the CPU speed of this machine ! | Sep 18 06:28 |
| fewa | zlg, its not performance | Sep 18 06:28 |
| fewa | its performance/watt | Sep 18 06:28 |
| fewa | and how much that performance/watt hold up accross load, and its granularity | Sep 18 06:29 |
| zlg | Yes, for portable and mobile computing you are exactly right, I guess in server farms and so on it get's to be an issue too. | Sep 18 06:29 |
| fewa | a computer over its life time costs more in electricity than it does in initial cost | Sep 18 06:29 |
| fewa | and most people in this world don't have the money to endlessly pay for increasingly expensive electricity | Sep 18 06:30 |
| fewa | not to mention the environmental impact | Sep 18 06:30 |
| fewa | this effect will not happen tomarrow | Sep 18 06:30 |
| fewa | but as the platforms converge with web browsers, the commoditize more and more, this can become critical | Sep 18 06:31 |
| fewa | *they | Sep 18 06:31 |
| _Hicham_ | energy is a serious issue | Sep 18 06:31 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, do you agree? | Sep 18 06:32 |
| _Hicham_ | and it will become critical when we will ran out of oil | Sep 18 06:32 |
| _Hicham_ | of course | Sep 18 06:32 |
| zlg | I certainly agree, and you are right but it would be the power consumption of your entire computer, monitor and so on, not just the dissipation of the CPU which might be what 120 watts on full load, 2 60wat light globes, and your PC supply is probably rated at 250 or 500 watts. | Sep 18 06:32 |
| fewa | it will kill x86 due to its unfit nature | Sep 18 06:32 |
| cubezzz | a big part of computer slowness is hard drive speed | Sep 18 06:32 |
| fewa | zlg, everything else will converge across the commodity | Sep 18 06:32 |
| zlg | Energy consumption is a hugely serious issue, | Sep 18 06:33 |
| fewa | zlg, and they will all be equal, with all equal something that is inherantly inefficient will have to go | Sep 18 06:33 |
| _Hicham_ | I d like to have a hard drive that doesn't heat up | Sep 18 06:33 |
| fewa | cubezzz, flash is going to change that, and lower power usage | Sep 18 06:33 |
| _Hicham_ | now it is 45°C | Sep 18 06:33 |
| fewa | also the increasingly inexpensive DRAM | Sep 18 06:33 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : flash ? | Sep 18 06:34 |
| fewa | I got 8 friggen gigs | Sep 18 06:34 |
| fewa | I hardly even fill it us | Sep 18 06:34 |
| fewa | up* | Sep 18 06:34 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, flash storage, ie SSD | Sep 18 06:34 |
| _Hicham_ | ah | Sep 18 06:34 |
| cubezzz | how big can SSD be? | Sep 18 06:34 |
| zlg | with 8 gig does it annoy you that most of it is not used ? | Sep 18 06:34 |
| _Hicham_ | as big as it can be | Sep 18 06:34 |
| fewa | cubezzz, the density is insane, so much bigger than hard drives which only work on 2 dimensions | Sep 18 06:35 |
| fewa | The problem right now is manufacture costs | Sep 18 06:35 |
| fewa | space is not an issue at all | Sep 18 06:35 |
| fewa | ..and yields | Sep 18 06:35 |
| fewa | flash fallows the same moores law | Sep 18 06:35 |
| fewa | as yields go up the amount of storage on one die will go up exponentially | Sep 18 06:36 |
| cubezzz | maybe I should try one, get an external flash drive... | Sep 18 06:36 |
| fewa | rapidly bringing down costs | Sep 18 06:36 |
| fewa | I just got an SD card | Sep 18 06:36 |
| fewa | and put a system on that | Sep 18 06:36 |
| zlg | Ive got 4 gig but it rarly goes above 1gig usage, but when I watch a movie off the HD I would like to see the entire movie dumped into RAM in one hit, and the movie showed from the RAM. | Sep 18 06:36 |
| fewa | no need to use a more expensive SATA one | Sep 18 06:36 |
| fewa | that is soooo much bigger | Sep 18 06:36 |
| fewa | you can get a really fast 8GB SD card for maybe $45 | Sep 18 06:37 |
| fewa | I got a faster than hard drive 4GB one for $15 | Sep 18 06:37 |
| fewa | zlg, no need for it to be dumped on RAM, as the hard drive speed is faster than the bit rate | Sep 18 06:37 |
| cubezzz | indeed | Sep 18 06:37 |
| zlg | You have to wait a bit for the SSD's to get a high number of writes . | Sep 18 06:37 |
| fewa | RAM caching is only important for binaries | Sep 18 06:38 |
| zlg | Yes, but that churns the drive, I would like it all dumped in one hit, then despin the HD | Sep 18 06:38 |
| fewa | and things access more than once | Sep 18 06:38 |
| fewa | if its only accessed once RAM doesn't help you *at all* | Sep 18 06:38 |
| fewa | you could have 0 ram and still do fin | Sep 18 06:38 |
| fewa | it would just be a I/O stack machine | Sep 18 06:39 |
| fewa | run right through | Sep 18 06:39 |
| zlg | I mean I can watch a 2 hour movie, and for the entire 2 hours my hard drive is reading data, whereas I would rather my HD dump that file in my RAM in 2 minutes and stop running at all for the next 2 hours. | Sep 18 06:39 |
| fewa | zlg, meh, thats the type of agressing caching vista was trying to do | Sep 18 06:39 |
| fewa | but even more than it was doing | Sep 18 06:40 |
| fewa | I think for program files there is a good rationale for that | Sep 18 06:40 |
| cubezzz | make everything nvram :) | Sep 18 06:40 |
| fewa | and Linux developers were looking to copy it for use on desktops | Sep 18 06:40 |
| fewa | as Linux caching only works best on system that never turn off | Sep 18 06:41 |
| fewa | then it's excellent, and unmatched | Sep 18 06:41 |
| fewa | zlg, you hard drive will already be used during that time doing other things | Sep 18 06:41 |
| fewa | but yeah I see your point | Sep 18 06:42 |
| zlg | It's makes sense the chching would work best after running awile and being filled. | Sep 18 06:42 |
| fewa | it would be a micro-optimization | Sep 18 06:42 |
| zlg | fewa, true, but not as much, my HD spin down after a period of inactivity, I have multiple. | Sep 18 06:42 |
| fewa | at the cost of potential performance | Sep 18 06:42 |
| fewa | thats why the computer does not do it | Sep 18 06:42 |
| zlg | What I do is dump it onto a USB stick, and watch it from that, no moving parts. | Sep 18 06:42 |
| fewa | because it sees it as a waste of RAM | Sep 18 06:43 |
| fewa | but you could increase your readahead buffer by a few GBs | Sep 18 06:43 |
| fewa | perhaps with a way to recognize these type of situations | Sep 18 06:43 |
| zlg | fewa yes, your right, it is a waste of RAM, and what's to say to the computer you are going to view the entire file/movie, so it's read it all for nothing. | Sep 18 06:44 |
| zlg | Once again it's a tradeoff | Sep 18 06:44 |
| fewa | exactly | Sep 18 06:44 |
| fewa | current optimizations in kernels are focuses on extremely probable tradeoffs | Sep 18 06:44 |
| cubezzz | buy a stand alone player, pipe the video to your monitor | Sep 18 06:44 |
| fewa | and increases that are nothing but increases in performance | Sep 18 06:44 |
| cubezzz | zero computer use | Sep 18 06:44 |
| fewa | they are not to the unlikely and discretional tradeoffs quite yet | Sep 18 06:45 |
| fewa | there are too many bigger issues | Sep 18 06:45 |
| zlg | cubezzz ive gone the other way, my computer is not multiple TV's VCR's, and entertainment centers, but I dont use a TV or radio | Sep 18 06:45 |
| cubezzz | no tv tuner card? | Sep 18 06:46 |
| zlg | no two USB tuner sticks for HD TV | Sep 18 06:46 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, i have a fan just for my hard drives | Sep 18 06:46 |
| fewa | as to think, they are the most important hardware in my computer | Sep 18 06:46 |
| fewa | and they get really hot without a fan | Sep 18 06:46 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : I have a laptop | Sep 18 06:47 |
| fewa | http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000748.html | Sep 18 06:47 |
| _Hicham_ | I tried everything | Sep 18 06:47 |
| cubezzz | zlg: do you bother with fm radio on the computer? | Sep 18 06:49 |
| _Hicham_ | from cleaning to coolers | Sep 18 06:50 |
| _Hicham_ | but in vain | Sep 18 06:50 |
| zlg | Ive looked at it, but no not really, I used to listen to Australia Newsradio but I dont even do that now. | Sep 18 06:50 |
| cubezzz | well for hard drive temp, you can go external | Sep 18 06:50 |
| cubezzz | I'm sure external drives are cooler | Sep 18 06:50 |
| fewa | ooo, this is really good http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001301.html | Sep 18 06:51 |
| zlg | My critical data is on a HD that is in an Anti-static bag, in a safe :) | Sep 18 06:51 |
| fewa | explains why clothes can be 500x the cost it takes to produce them in Europe, US, and the developed world | Sep 18 06:51 |
| fewa | and are still marketed as "cheap" | Sep 18 06:51 |
| fewa | lots of this also: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001295.html | Sep 18 06:53 |
| fewa | lots of companys want to turn internet users into tech support people | Sep 18 06:53 |
| fewa | for propritary products | Sep 18 06:53 |
| cubezzz | I prefer optical for backup (3 copies) | Sep 18 06:53 |
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| fewa | the interesting thing with pro-profit advertising sites like wikia is that I have adblock | Sep 18 06:54 |
| fewa | so I usually don't see the difference | Sep 18 06:55 |
| fewa | cubezzz, its cheaper to backup to hard drives | Sep 18 06:55 |
| Will___ | schestowitz: This Dilbert strip is a couple of years old, but it fits well some of the latest moves out of Redmond: http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2007-09-13/ | Sep 18 06:55 |
| fewa | hard drives are actually cheaper storage, meanwhile they are easier to manage, dont require manual labor, dont have a Racket copyfraud tax, are faster, and can be rewritten many more times | Sep 18 06:56 |
| fewa | oh, they also don't scratch | Sep 18 06:56 |
| fewa | optical media are obsolete | Sep 18 06:56 |
| cubezzz | fewa, let me ask you a question | Sep 18 06:57 |
| cubezzz | how many of your drives are over 10 years old? | Sep 18 06:57 |
| fewa | 1 | Sep 18 06:57 |
| fewa | but that was my first hard drive | Sep 18 06:57 |
| fewa | but yeah, you have a point | Sep 18 06:58 |
| zlg | for me all but 1, so about 6. | Sep 18 06:58 |
| cubezzz | the disc will out-last your drive | Sep 18 06:58 |
| cubezzz | mechanical parts = eventual failure | Sep 18 06:59 |
| cubezzz | and yes, your platter's can be scratched | Sep 18 06:59 |
| cubezzz | by the read-write head | Sep 18 06:59 |
| zlg | True, that's also why they are not in use, they have extreemly long shelf lifes. | Sep 18 06:59 |
| fewa | flash is best | Sep 18 07:00 |
| fewa | is the storage size is low | Sep 18 07:00 |
| cubezzz | I don't know, it seems rather inconclusive | Sep 18 07:00 |
| fewa | --you don't have to back up much data | Sep 18 07:00 |
| cubezzz | all I can say is my oldest CDR's still work, they are about 11 years old | Sep 18 07:00 |
| fewa | I trust flash more than anything | Sep 18 07:01 |
| cubezzz | more than a printout? :) | Sep 18 07:01 |
| fewa | yeah inconclusive, i treat alot of CD like shit | Sep 18 07:01 |
| fewa | and they stop working | Sep 18 07:01 |
| fewa | but some really old ones still work great | Sep 18 07:01 |
| fewa | ...hoping flahs fixes the breaking problem | Sep 18 07:01 |
| cubezzz | well, assuming you treat your discs with care and keep them safe in storage... | Sep 18 07:02 |
| fewa | Apple's time machine was a really great solution for the backup problem | Sep 18 07:02 |
| zlg | It's true Ive not had an optical drive fail, but not have I have unused full HD fail either. | Sep 18 07:02 |
| cubezzz | I trust optical more than magnetic hard drives | Sep 18 07:02 |
| fewa | I have dropped a hard drive with tons of great stuff on it | Sep 18 07:02 |
| fewa | 100% full | Sep 18 07:02 |
| fewa | :( | Sep 18 07:02 |
| zlg | for A$80 or less I can buy a 1T HD. | Sep 18 07:02 |
| cubezzz | ok, example of long time storage, safety film... | Sep 18 07:02 |
| cubezzz | safety film from the 1930's still works good | Sep 18 07:03 |
| cubezzz | so close to 80 years there | Sep 18 07:03 |
| cubezzz | my kodachrome slides from the 60's still good | Sep 18 07:03 |
| cubezzz | ok, now show me hard drive from 60's :) | Sep 18 07:03 |
| cubezzz | still working | Sep 18 07:03 |
| zlg | flash RAM have a finate storage time as well, and not that long. | Sep 18 07:04 |
| schestowitz | Will___: I saw that Dilber before | Sep 18 07:04 |
| schestowitz | *bert | Sep 18 07:04 |
| cubezzz | here is what I do... | Sep 18 07:04 |
| zlg | I still have a 10Meg HD from the 80's that still works | Sep 18 07:04 |
| cubezzz | after 3 years I dup my discs | Sep 18 07:04 |
| cubezzz | so every 3 years I have another backup | Sep 18 07:05 |
| cubezzz | any very important program I wrote, print it out... | Sep 18 07:05 |
| cubezzz | store in fire-proof safe | Sep 18 07:05 |
| cubezzz | recently I had a guy bring me one of those tetrabyte hard drives | Sep 18 07:07 |
| cubezzz | partition was corrupted, windows couldn't even see the drive | Sep 18 07:07 |
| cubezzz | on Linux I backup the whole thing to another tetrabyte hd | Sep 18 07:07 |
| zlg | I use the 3 i have in an external USB carrier, works like a dream. | Sep 18 07:07 |
| cubezzz | but after all that I told him don't have all that data on just one drive | Sep 18 07:07 |
| zlg | and quiet | Sep 18 07:08 |
| zlg | yes, bad idea cubezz | Sep 18 07:08 |
| fewa | zlg, really | Sep 18 07:09 |
| fewa | when will flash drives break? | Sep 18 07:09 |
| fewa | when will they disintigrate | Sep 18 07:09 |
| zlg | yes, to keep all your data on just one hard drive. | Sep 18 07:09 |
| cubezzz | I have a st157N but nothing to connect it to | Sep 18 07:09 |
| fewa | compared to CDs and hard drives it will be a long time | Sep 18 07:09 |
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| wallclimber | This is one of the most interesting conversations I've followed here. cubezzz, I do the same thing backing up drives - tho i do it every two years. Because I have about ten years of client files to keep, it's quite a chore. i feel like most of my spare change goes for more drive space | Sep 18 07:10 |
| cubezzz | well, maybe if you never use the hard drive it will of course last longer | Sep 18 07:10 |
| wallclimber | i live in the desrt and heat is a serious problem, i baby the drives i have and try to make them last. | Sep 18 07:11 |
| wallclimber | i have two that are 10 years old, tho i don't keep anything important on them | Sep 18 07:11 |
| cubezzz | film is the longest proven backup method | Sep 18 07:11 |
| zlg | I also back up to optical, I would have a pile of DVD's mabey 6 feet high if you stacked it. | Sep 18 07:11 |
| cubezzz | not hard drives :) | Sep 18 07:11 |
| zlg | Hyroglyphs | Sep 18 07:12 |
| cubezzz | chemically stable safety film | Sep 18 07:12 |
| cubezzz | ok, I'm talking video here :) | Sep 18 07:12 |
| zlg | lol | Sep 18 07:12 |
| cubezzz | you did say video right? | Sep 18 07:12 |
| zlg | yes, alot of mine is vid | Sep 18 07:13 |
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| cubezzz | ok, let me also point out that drive interfaces change very quickly | Sep 18 07:13 |
| cubezzz | there used to be SCSI 1 | Sep 18 07:13 |
| cubezzz | ok, well, now I have no SCSI 1 computer to connect the drive to | Sep 18 07:14 |
| cubezzz | now, do the newest motherboards have 40-pin IDE connections? | Sep 18 07:14 |
| cubezzz | maybe not.... | Sep 18 07:14 |
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| hicham_ | good morning senior schestowitz | Sep 18 07:15 |
| zlg | no they dont, but you can purchase adapters that allow them to connect to USB (and HD power 4 Pin). | Sep 18 07:15 |
| wallclimber | i have an old "Promise" card that I installed into my new computer, so i can connect the old drives to get files off of them | Sep 18 07:15 |
| zlg | yees, or that way, ive got a few of those hanging around as well. does modern motherboards come with an ISA bus ? | Sep 18 07:16 |
| wallclimber | I was very surprised and pleased to find that Ubuntu had no problem recognising the card and the old drives connected to it | Sep 18 07:16 |
| cubezzz | zlg: exactly | Sep 18 07:17 |
| cubezzz | probably no ISA slots | Sep 18 07:17 |
| cubezzz | wallclimber, old hardware is usually supported on Linux, better than doze certainly | Sep 18 07:17 |
| wallclimber | definitely better! | Sep 18 07:18 |
| zlg | I was going to say the same thing, there is no shortage of drivers for legacy gear in linux. | Sep 18 07:18 |
| cubezzz | your only safety is redundacy | Sep 18 07:18 |
| wallclimber | after fussing with that sony laptop this week, the contrast between the two systems was astounding | Sep 18 07:19 |
| cubezzz | another thing I do is scan old papers, and then store on optical | Sep 18 07:19 |
| cubezzz | example: I have 1930's newspapers and they are starting to decay | Sep 18 07:19 |
| wallclimber | i have to do a lot of scanning, and keep the high resolution files. more storage is a constant need | Sep 18 07:20 |
| zlg | that would be interesting, I guess post depression ? | Sep 18 07:20 |
| zlg | or during | Sep 18 07:20 |
| cubezzz | during actually | Sep 18 07:20 |
| cubezzz | http://maxhost.org/blog/2009/01/funny-papers-1934-part-ii.html | Sep 18 07:22 |
| wallclimber | how do you handle scanning such fragile paper? | Sep 18 07:22 |
| cubezzz | well, I'm pretty careful... but it's at the point where I either scan it or lose it | Sep 18 07:23 |
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| wallclimber | i do some old photo restorations periodically and it makes me very nervous handling them to scan... | Sep 18 07:25 |
| wallclimber | i'm always glad to hand them back to their owners | Sep 18 07:25 |
| zlg | photographing is a good way, use something like a 12maga pixel SLR. | Sep 18 07:26 |
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| schestowitz | fewa: thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A | Sep 18 07:26 |
| cubezzz | my amiga discs definitely didn't stand the test of time | Sep 18 07:27 |
| zlg | 3.5in ? really, hmm | Sep 18 07:28 |
| zlg | come to think of it I used to get alot of failures wth everyday suse. | Sep 18 07:29 |
| zlg | use* | Sep 18 07:29 |
| cubezzz | 75% of silent film is lost | Sep 18 07:30 |
| zlg | and highly flamable | Sep 18 07:31 |
| zlg | celluloid | Sep 18 07:32 |
| cubezzz | I have a few 8 inch discs, no drive though :) | Sep 18 07:36 |
| cubezzz | there's 50 gig blu-ray recordable now, which comes close to hard drive sizes | Sep 18 07:38 |
| fewa | wow look at what they think you are if you view the star wars wikia | Sep 18 07:39 |
| fewa | http://ad.doubleclick.net/adi/wka.ent/_starwars/home;s0=ent;s1=_starwars;s2=home;age=teen;age=yadult;egnre=scifi;esrb=everyone;esrb=teen;gnre=action;gnre=adventure;media=movie;pform=all;sex=m;loc=top;artid=145545;pos=HOME_TOP_RIGHT_BOXAD;sz=300x250;tile=1;mtfIFPath=/extensions/wikia/AdEngine/;ord=99144392? | Sep 18 07:39 |
| fewa | usually ad networks actively hid what they think of you | Sep 18 07:39 |
| cubezzz | how can they know you're a guy? | Sep 18 07:41 |
| fewa | all i did was go to http://starwars.wikia.com/ | Sep 18 07:41 |
| fewa | and without any preexisting cookies | Sep 18 07:41 |
| fewa | it didn't even load cause I have host redirection of the biggest ad networks | Sep 18 07:42 |
| fewa | talk about prejudice | Sep 18 07:42 |
| fewa | thats a textbook example | Sep 18 07:42 |
| fewa | wait i guess i had some cookies | Sep 18 07:42 |
| fewa | no wait same w/o cookies | Sep 18 07:43 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Heroic #Microsoft Saves the World Again http://bit.ly/12v62i | Sep 18 07:54 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] No Patches for Windows Vista and Server 2008 as Exploit Surfaces; Gartner Lies for Microsoft http://bit.ly/tKtlK | Sep 18 08:31 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] No Patches for #Windows #Vista and #Server2008 as Exploit Surfaces; Gartner Lies for #Microsoft http://bit.ly/tKtlK | Sep 18 08:31 | |
| schestowitz | brb | Sep 18 08:33 |
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| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Sep 18 08:39:39 2009 | ||
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Sep 18 08:39 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged] | Sep 18 08:39 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009 | Sep 18 08:39 | |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Sep 18 08:39 | |
| fewa | <schestowitz> Oh, look.....http://ubuntumanual.org/posts/244/ubuntu-artwork-team-starts-delivering-four-cool-themes-and-two-icon-sets-to-start-with (.Ubuntu Artwork team starts delivering - Four cool themes and two icon sets to start with! ) | Sep 18 08:55 |
| fewa | comming back to this | Sep 18 08:55 |
| fewa | its the same reason there is ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu | Sep 18 08:56 |
| fewa | its a marketing tactic | Sep 18 08:56 |
| fewa | to highlight the difference and choice of linux | Sep 18 08:56 |
| fewa | instead of telling them you show them by stating them as differn't products | Sep 18 08:56 |
| fewa | its quite smart IMHO | Sep 18 08:56 |
| fewa | and there is nothing wrong with it | Sep 18 08:56 |
| schestowitz | They could just unify with the repos, I guess. | Sep 18 08:58 |
| fewa | they do | Sep 18 08:58 |
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| fewa | the repos are identical | Sep 18 08:58 |
| fewa | its just a branding effort which lets people unfamilier have a good starting point | Sep 18 08:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: you do realize its all the same distro, right? | Sep 18 08:59 |
| fewa | brand the options people have | Sep 18 08:59 |
| fewa | ^^^^ exactly | Sep 18 08:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | ubuntu, kubuntu, and xubuntu are all the _same_ product | Sep 18 08:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | the difference is which desktop meta-package is installed first | Sep 18 08:59 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, well not quite | Sep 18 08:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | the "server" product is just no desktop meta-package installed | Sep 18 08:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: yup, it pretty much is | Sep 18 09:00 |
| fewa | they are brands for the KDE, GNOME, and XFCE products | Sep 18 09:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | not really | Sep 18 09:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're brands for ubuntu. | Sep 18 09:00 |
| fewa | and ubuntu is basically the debian product | Sep 18 09:00 |
| fewa | renamed | Sep 18 09:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | no | Sep 18 09:00 |
| fewa | the "ubuntu product" is abmost a myth | Sep 18 09:00 |
| fewa | its just a giant brand for canonical's packaging | Sep 18 09:00 |
| oiaohm | KDE is in ubuntu is altered compared to debian version fewa | Sep 18 09:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | ubuntu is just ubuntu with gnome installed by default | Sep 18 09:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | kubuntu is ubuntu with kde installed by default | Sep 18 09:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | x is xfce by default | Sep 18 09:01 |
| oiaohm | I like the debian version more fewa | Sep 18 09:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | and also | Sep 18 09:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | ubuntu is not debian | Sep 18 09:01 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but they still are actively letting people conflate ubuntu with the projects that support it | Sep 18 09:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it never will be | Sep 18 09:01 |
| fewa | and are included in it | Sep 18 09:01 |
| fewa | but thats the more controversial point | Sep 18 09:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | the only thing ubuntu did was start with a copy of debian | Sep 18 09:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | its gone down hill since | Sep 18 09:01 |
| fewa | I think branding the parts that are differn't to the user is quite smart, and not at all disingenuous | Sep 18 09:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: its rather stupid | Sep 18 09:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | debian did it right | Sep 18 09:02 |
| fewa | meh, well ok not smart | Sep 18 09:02 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu and Debian both have the same problem. | Sep 18 09:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | only install a desktop if the user requests it | Sep 18 09:02 |
| fewa | but I have no problem with it | Sep 18 09:02 |
| oiaohm | Very lax in upstreaming alterations fewa | Sep 18 09:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Self-proclaimed "journalist" who plants stories for Microsoft has made transactions with SCO http://ping.fm/sv9Ng | Sep 18 09:02 | |
| oiaohm | Without the upstream projects Ubuntu and Debian could not exist. | Sep 18 09:03 |
| fewa | very much true | Sep 18 09:04 |
| fewa | Debian is clear about that | Sep 18 09:04 |
| fewa | we sit at the top and put it all together | Sep 18 09:04 |
| fewa | but thats all we do | Sep 18 09:04 |
| fewa | thats the disengenuous part of Ubuntu | Sep 18 09:04 |
| fewa | they seem to actively put their name where Linux, or GNU, or GNOME, or whatever should be | Sep 18 09:04 |
| fewa | But branding their product to the underlying stuff is OK IMHO, and fits user expectations | Sep 18 09:05 |
| fewa | of those moving from monolithic propritary OSs | Sep 18 09:05 |
| oiaohm | Debian also back ports patches. | Sep 18 09:06 |
| fewa | yes | Sep 18 09:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | not really | Sep 18 09:07 |
| fewa | thats a big part too | Sep 18 09:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | they quit that practice a long time ago because it doesnt work | Sep 18 09:07 |
| fewa | security patches | Sep 18 09:07 |
| oiaohm | No clear policy on when to terminate of package due to faults. | Sep 18 09:07 |
| fewa | just upgrade to the newest some time | Sep 18 09:07 |
| fewa | when cant be backported | Sep 18 09:07 |
| oiaohm | Again not a valid rule. | Sep 18 09:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | if a security problem comes up, even in stable, they just bring in the new version of the program instead of patching it | Sep 18 09:07 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, no | Sep 18 09:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes. | Sep 18 09:08 |
| oiaohm | Lot of problems that happen to debian are tracked to bad back ports. | Sep 18 09:08 |
| fewa | they back port alot of kernel problems | Sep 18 09:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | you wern't around for the apache fuckup | Sep 18 09:08 |
| fewa | but yes there is both | Sep 18 09:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: erm, you do realize debian's kernel is debian's kernel, right? | Sep 18 09:08 |
| fewa | Ubuntu breaks even more stuff | Sep 18 09:08 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, yes i do | Sep 18 09:08 |
| oiaohm | When it comes to kernel Ubuntu is better than debain. | Sep 18 09:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | its heavily patched and doesn't follow main | Sep 18 09:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | due to the fact linus is a fucking moron | Sep 18 09:09 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu has there kernel setup as a branch off the main kernel. | Sep 18 09:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: everyone uses git | Sep 18 09:09 |
| oiaohm | Same with a lot of other distributions. | Sep 18 09:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is what git was designed for | Sep 18 09:09 |
| fewa | and hardware developers | Sep 18 09:09 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: find debians in git. | Sep 18 09:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | it exist | Sep 18 09:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | *exists | Sep 18 09:09 |
| oiaohm | Ok where Diablo-D3 I have never come accross it. | Sep 18 09:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | ask in the debian kernel channel | Sep 18 09:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | its like #debian-kernel or someshit on oftc | Sep 18 09:11 |
| oiaohm | If you look closer debian source still uses Linux standard source patch + patches. Not the git solution. | Sep 18 09:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | pretty sure they dont do that anymore | Sep 18 09:15 |
| oiaohm | Debian is the last major distrobution not to be accross to the git system. | Sep 18 09:15 |
| oiaohm | As per normal. | Sep 18 09:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont think thats true anymore | Sep 18 09:16 |
| oiaohm | Still true for squeeze. | Sep 18 09:16 |
| oiaohm | Maybe sid is different. | Sep 18 09:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | not for the developers, however | Sep 18 09:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | the kernels are still built using the patch system | Sep 18 09:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | but they maintain everything with git | Sep 18 09:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | kernel-package in sid is slowly unwinding all of that | Sep 18 09:17 |
| oiaohm | Ok so another release or 2 before they are full converted. | Sep 18 09:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | probably | Sep 18 09:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | kernel-package is an almighty piece of shit in some places | Sep 18 09:18 |
| *Diablo-D3 uses it on a daily basis for kernel testing >_> | Sep 18 09:18 | |
| *MinceR_ (n=mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 09:21 | |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, also, if linux is a retard how can he resolve differences and coordinate the goals of thousands of developers | Sep 18 09:24 |
| fewa | and prevent linux from getting forked so successfully | Sep 18 09:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: not really, no. | Sep 18 09:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | all he does is wave his dick around and it magically fixes shit | Sep 18 09:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | and he wrote git to, basically, prevent forking | Sep 18 09:24 |
| fewa | by making forking really easy? | Sep 18 09:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | yup | Sep 18 09:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | he can just very painlessly import all patches | Sep 18 09:25 |
| fewa | your logic is impeckable | Sep 18 09:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | even if you wanted to fork, he can just suck you back in | Sep 18 09:25 |
| fewa | its not about preventing forking but about enabling coolaberation across forks | Sep 18 09:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | which DUN DUN DUN prevents actual forks | Sep 18 09:26 |
| fewa | it prevents a major fork by improving development so much | Sep 18 09:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | it turns all forks into parallel development trees | Sep 18 09:26 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, its not that simply | Sep 18 09:26 |
| fewa | its about improving development | Sep 18 09:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | it doesnt improve development however | Sep 18 09:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | since he lets people like ingo write code | Sep 18 09:26 |
| fewa | anyways Diablo-D3, im not going to play your blame game | Sep 18 09:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | if all of ingo's code was ripped out of the kernel, the kernel would suck 3x less | Sep 18 09:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | linus is an idiot because he lets people fuck the kernel up | Sep 18 09:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | he doesnt even care about it anymore | Sep 18 09:27 |
| oiaohm | fewa: Linux kernel development depends on forks. | Sep 18 09:27 |
| fewa | If linux was not goot at his job he would be replaced tomarrow | Sep 18 09:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | hes too happy whoring himself out people with a lot of money | Sep 18 09:27 |
| fewa | *good | Sep 18 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Always has depend on it. | Sep 18 09:27 |
| fewa | oiaohm, exactly my point | Sep 18 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Before git Linus used another package to manage forks. | Sep 18 09:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | linux doesnt depend on forks, oiaohm | Sep 18 09:28 |
| fewa | Linus's job is to keep development directed | Sep 18 09:28 |
| oiaohm | the key bit to keep forks under control is the means to merge. | Sep 18 09:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | it depends on parallel development trees | Sep 18 09:28 |
| oiaohm | It does Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:28 |
| fewa | keep it from needing a fork | Sep 18 09:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | a fork implies it never comes back | Sep 18 09:28 |
| fewa | and enabling development | Sep 18 09:28 |
| fewa | with such tools such as git | Sep 18 09:28 |
| oiaohm | No it does not Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:28 |
| fewa | if Linus did not enable development they would dump him | Sep 18 09:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | when I say fork, I mean specifically those kind | Sep 18 09:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Openly Admits #Vista is Not Good; #Vista7 Likely the Same http://ping.fm/0cuJO | Sep 18 09:28 | |
| oiaohm | Like the RT tree it started life as a full fork. | Sep 18 09:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: and yet, it came back. | Sep 18 09:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats the problem | Sep 18 09:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | no one can escape it | Sep 18 09:29 |
| fewa | Therefore your attacks on him Diablo-D3 are misplaced | Sep 18 09:29 |
| oiaohm | Because git provided a way that it could merge back in. | Sep 18 09:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: not at all | Sep 18 09:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: linus chose to accept ingo's code | Sep 18 09:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | so yeah, hes a moron | Sep 18 09:29 |
| oiaohm | Forking and merging make good development. | Sep 18 09:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | the scheduler in linux continues to get slower and slower | Sep 18 09:30 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: get over it. Linus has to accept code that does bench mark right. | Sep 18 09:30 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: you are wrong. | Sep 18 09:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: the benchmark was flawed | Sep 18 09:30 |
| fewa | good development prevent the need for a permanent fork | Sep 18 09:30 |
| oiaohm | The Linux scheduler lot of cases is turning out not to be the speed problems at all. | Sep 18 09:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: and it ended up not being a bug in con's code anyhow | Sep 18 09:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS is also covering up a lot of race bugs as well | Sep 18 09:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | which I especially don't like | Sep 18 09:30 |
| oiaohm | No matter what format scheduler you have it will hide some race condition bugs and display others. | Sep 18 09:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not true | Sep 18 09:31 |
| oiaohm | That is true. | Sep 18 09:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | you could actually have a sched that randomly preempts | Sep 18 09:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | it will find _all_ races | Sep 18 09:32 |
| oiaohm | No it will not. | Sep 18 09:32 |
| *MinceR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 18 09:32 | |
| Diablo-D3 | your machine wont make it past a few minutes | Sep 18 09:32 |
| *zhrb has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 18 09:32 | |
| oiaohm | It can still manage to miss for ever Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:32 |
| oiaohm | Idea that random would be random. | Sep 18 09:32 |
| fewa | yep | Sep 18 09:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | by random I mean hammer the shit out of the kernel in bizzare and new ways | Sep 18 09:33 |
| oiaohm | It will anyways miss something. | Sep 18 09:33 |
| fewa | its why race conditions are so difficult to find | Sep 18 09:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | your machine wont make it past a few minutes | Sep 18 09:33 |
| oiaohm | It will. | Sep 18 09:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | until most of those are fixed, the kernel will have severe race problems | Sep 18 09:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | and a lot of these are easy to fix | Sep 18 09:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | put a preempt barrier up | Sep 18 09:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | people just never do it in the right places | Sep 18 09:34 |
| oiaohm | The realtime tree is addressing the faults you are taking about. | Sep 18 09:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | the realtime tree is pretty much not needed | Sep 18 09:34 |
| oiaohm | Because they want to be able to preempt the CFS at any time. | Sep 18 09:34 |
| oiaohm | And I do mean anytime. | Sep 18 09:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | you cant do hard realtime on linux | Sep 18 09:35 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Sep 18 09:35 |
| fewa | lolol | Sep 18 09:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | and BFS is much faster than CFS will ever be | Sep 18 09:35 |
| oiaohm | So you did not see phonix | Sep 18 09:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | and dun dun dunnn BFS could probably survive being preempted. | Sep 18 09:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | so, yet again, mingo fails | Sep 18 09:35 |
| oiaohm | When BFS barely beats CFS in 2.6.31 | Sep 18 09:35 |
| oiaohm | I do mean barely. | Sep 18 09:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: actually, BFS is a shitload faster than CFS on 2.6.31 | Sep 18 09:35 |
| fewa | Linux probably has better allowance of kernel preemption than any other system | Sep 18 09:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | I had to use custom settings to get close | Sep 18 09:36 |
| fewa | right? | Sep 18 09:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: phoronix tested a rather old BFS | Sep 18 09:36 |
| oiaohm | Note 2.6.32 is a lot faster. | Sep 18 09:36 |
| oiaohm | For CFS | Sep 18 09:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS is intergrating some ideas from BFS | Sep 18 09:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is weird | Sep 18 09:36 |
| *MinceR_ is now known as MinceR | Sep 18 09:36 | |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo makes it so obvious | Sep 18 09:36 |
| oiaohm | Do you know the biggest speed problems has nothing to do with CFS and BFS | Sep 18 09:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | but when you call him on it he furrows his neanderthal brow and swears a lot | Sep 18 09:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: depends how you define big | Sep 18 09:37 |
| oiaohm | 2.6.32 is a lot faster for desktop because selection of what to send to swap space changed. | Sep 18 09:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | on tiny platforms BFS increased speed a large measurable amount | Sep 18 09:37 |
| oiaohm | So effectively doubling performance | Sep 18 09:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | 2.6.32 will be 0% faster for me | Sep 18 09:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't use swap. | Sep 18 09:37 |
| fewa | i heard 50% increase | Sep 18 09:38 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Sep 18 09:38 |
| MinceR | so you waste memory that could be used for disk buffer. | Sep 18 09:38 |
| fewa | so not quite doubling | Sep 18 09:38 |
| fewa | but still a _lot_ | Sep 18 09:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | and, uh, btw, that fix will probably also increase BFS | Sep 18 09:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | so nice try. | Sep 18 09:38 |
| oiaohm | The issue 2.6.32 addess is dumping applications out of memory Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:38 |
| oiaohm | Due to it already being on disk. | Sep 18 09:38 |
| fewa | from here http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_31 | Sep 18 09:38 |
| oiaohm | So swap disabled does not prevent the problem. | Sep 18 09:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: please dont bring up things that aren't related to CFS | Sep 18 09:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | if .32 gets something, .32 running BFS will also get it | Sep 18 09:39 |
| fewa | relly? | Sep 18 09:39 |
| fewa | wow that seems obvious | Sep 18 09:39 |
| oiaohm | The point you like to skip around in BFS changes are not addressing where the errors are. | Sep 18 09:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS doesn't magically warp you into some noneuclidean land where oranges mate with apples | Sep 18 09:39 |
| oiaohm | CFS is not either. | Sep 18 09:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: you assume that fixing one has ANYHTING ELSE to do with fixing others | Sep 18 09:40 |
| oiaohm | Both are just hiding faults in other areas of the kernel. | Sep 18 09:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | it doesnt | Sep 18 09:40 |
| oiaohm | BFS apache speed gain. | Sep 18 09:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | on android phones, which google devs have already played around with, BFS increases usability several magnitude | Sep 18 09:40 |
| oiaohm | Guess what it almost completely disappears once kernel stop dropping applications out of memory. | Sep 18 09:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: and btw, the memory system also sucks | Sep 18 09:41 |
| oiaohm | Only reason BFS was doing better is that it was swaping between applications faster so preventing memory system stupidity. | Sep 18 09:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | but you're trying to state that that matters | Sep 18 09:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | guess what oiaohm, people are working on shit | Sep 18 09:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | just because con works on bfs doesnt mean someone else cant work on the memory system | Sep 18 09:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is why we have parallel development | Sep 18 09:42 |
| oiaohm | BFS advantages basically disappear as the other areas get fixed. | Sep 18 09:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | not really | Sep 18 09:42 |
| oiaohm | Really. | Sep 18 09:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | since CFS executes too much code | Sep 18 09:42 |
| oiaohm | Flawed claim. | Sep 18 09:42 |
| oiaohm | CFS yes runs more code. | Sep 18 09:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | you fail at optimization | Sep 18 09:42 |
| oiaohm | But there is a problem ehre. | Sep 18 09:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you run 80% less code per second and it does the same function, then your code is going to be much faster | Sep 18 09:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | period | Sep 18 09:43 |
| oiaohm | BFS does not blance load or be able to make sure applications taht need cpu time get it. | Sep 18 09:43 |
| oiaohm | So you fix one problem to cause another. | Sep 18 09:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | huh? | Sep 18 09:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | now you're talking nonsense | Sep 18 09:43 |
| oiaohm | I am not. | Sep 18 09:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | load balancing only applies to scheds that have multiple queues | Sep 18 09:43 |
| oiaohm | BFS does not do biases well. | Sep 18 09:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | multiple queues dont work. | Sep 18 09:44 |
| oiaohm | Biases are needing for items like X11 and pulseaudio | Sep 18 09:44 |
| oiaohm | To make sure they process what they need on time. | Sep 18 09:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | biases are not needed at all | Sep 18 09:44 |
| MinceR | pulseaudio doesn't need bias, it needs to be killed with fire. ;) | Sep 18 09:44 |
| oiaohm | So you like audio cracking up of audio | Sep 18 09:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | biases cover up bugs in the scheduler | Sep 18 09:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | no I dont, which is why I use bfs | Sep 18 09:44 |
| oiaohm | or keyboard input feasing | Sep 18 09:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | no I dont, which is why I use bfs | Sep 18 09:45 |
| oiaohm | cfs with preemt does a far better job with both than bfs | Sep 18 09:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | I can get lower usable latency in jack with bfs over cfs, and I get much lower input latency in bfs over cfs | Sep 18 09:45 |
| oiaohm | Yes slightly less cpu usable over all bit it gets used where I need it. | Sep 18 09:45 |
| oiaohm | You are not running that system under load Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:46 |
| oiaohm | That is where Bfs cracks up. | Sep 18 09:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | 200% load., try again. | Sep 18 09:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | <oiaohm> but but but BFS eats babies! | Sep 18 09:46 |
| oiaohm | 200 load accross 100 users. | Sep 18 09:46 |
| oiaohm | Yes it breaks up. | Sep 18 09:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | seriously, oiaohm, stop with the FUD. | Sep 18 09:46 |
| oiaohm | Particular users end up staved. | Sep 18 09:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | processes _can't_ starve, oiaohm | Sep 18 09:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS doesnt allow that | Sep 18 09:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS _does_ | Sep 18 09:47 |
| oiaohm | No. | Sep 18 09:47 |
| oiaohm | users not processes | Sep 18 09:47 |
| oiaohm | don't you get the difference. | Sep 18 09:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | there is no difference | Sep 18 09:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | nor should you try to make one | Sep 18 09:47 |
| oiaohm | Ie cfs makes sure users all get there fair share of cpu time. | Sep 18 09:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, which is wrong | Sep 18 09:47 |
| oiaohm | bfs a user can take up the loin share of cpu time and leave nothing for anyone else. | Sep 18 09:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | it allows processes to wait a very long time before being run again | Sep 18 09:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: wrong | Sep 18 09:48 |
| oiaohm | It does./ | Sep 18 09:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | all processes will be run | Sep 18 09:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS allows processes to be ran before others who haven't been run for awhile | Sep 18 09:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is a serious defect | Sep 18 09:48 |
| zlg | CPU throughput is far higher than I/O throughput, so the number or size of the code makes no difference. now CPU usage., | Sep 18 09:48 |
| oiaohm | If load is still low enough that the people who are getting staved can start processes. | Sep 18 09:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: I think you need to learn how stuff works first | Sep 18 09:49 |
| MinceR | zlg: you still need to get that code into the CPU. | Sep 18 09:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're talking out your ass. | Sep 18 09:49 |
| oiaohm | I am not Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:49 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Back to school with RIAA-funded copyright curriculum - Ars Technica http://tinyurl.com/mtoenv | Sep 18 09:49 | |
| Diablo-D3 | if a process ever gets starved, then the sched has gone wrong. | Sep 18 09:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | period. | Sep 18 09:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is the entire purpose of a deadline scheduler | Sep 18 09:50 |
| zlg | Yes, but you actually do not do that, you have RAM and L1 and L2 and the HD's dual port FIFO buffer. | Sep 18 09:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS does not deadline | Sep 18 09:50 |
| oiaohm | deadline does not fit all work loads Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: wrong. | Sep 18 09:50 |
| oiaohm | That is the problem Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 09:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | it fits all workloads | Sep 18 09:50 |
| oiaohm | No it does not. | Sep 18 09:50 |
| MinceR | the whole point of being able to choose schedulers is that you can find the one that fits your requirements best. :> | Sep 18 09:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes it does. | Sep 18 09:50 |
| oiaohm | Deadline is simpler to Dos attack. | Sep 18 09:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: find a workload where CFS is legitimately superior | Sep 18 09:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | I can't dos deadline, I run out of cpu time first. | Sep 18 09:51 |
| oiaohm | dos does not have to stop processor. | Sep 18 09:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | and yes, I've tried | Sep 18 09:51 |
| oiaohm | Just cause it time time out on respones. | Sep 18 09:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | I ran ten thousand processes banging away | Sep 18 09:51 |
| oiaohm | by making process table too large. | Sep 18 09:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | X was as smooth as ever | Sep 18 09:51 |
| oiaohm | Its about 2 million by the way. | Sep 18 09:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | I did the same on CFS, and everything came to a halt | Sep 18 09:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | so yeah, oiaohm, your claim is bullshit. | Sep 18 09:52 |
| oiaohm | I did on a HP unix sever with a deal line. | Sep 18 09:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | please stop repeating mingo's fud | Sep 18 09:52 |
| oiaohm | So I do know where to break it. | Sep 18 09:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're worse than a microsoft fanboy. | Sep 18 09:52 |
| zlg | MincR, Agreed, hourses for courses. | Sep 18 09:54 |
| *_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 18 09:56 | |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: Have you tried the evil against BFS yet. The process that starts another process then terminates. | Sep 18 10:01 |
| oiaohm | Yes simple alteration of a fork bomb. | Sep 18 10:01 |
| oiaohm | Ie user split of cpu access prevents a fork bomb from being system crippling. | Sep 18 10:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @thistleweb @EFF has released a great balanced curriculum to fit the same California mandate http://www.teachingcopyright.org/ | Sep 18 10:02 | |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: Ive actually done worse | Sep 18 10:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | a fork bomb written in C | Sep 18 10:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | but it doesn't fork, it threads | Sep 18 10:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | it threads until it cant thread anymore | Sep 18 10:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | X under BFS stays usable | Sep 18 10:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | X under CFS chokes after the first few thousand | Sep 18 10:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @thistleweb @EFF has released a great balanced curriculum to fit the same #California #copyright mandate http://www.teachingcopyright.org/ | Sep 18 10:04 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FoxNews Brings #Microsoft to #OpenSource http://ping.fm/Rj6Xo | Sep 18 10:07 | |
| MinceR | over nine thousand threads! | Sep 18 10:12 |
| zlg | what has MinceR ? | Sep 18 10:14 |
| MinceR | it was a reference you didn't get. :> | Sep 18 10:15 |
| zlg | I see, hahaha, I get jokes :D | Sep 18 10:15 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: try processes Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 10:17 |
| oiaohm | You will find out CFS has one fault BFS has the other. | Sep 18 10:17 |
| oiaohm | Both are screwed. | Sep 18 10:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: your case sucks however | Sep 18 10:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS still fucks up the linux desktop no matter what you say | Sep 18 10:17 |
| oiaohm | does CFS die from too many threads on over all processing. Depends on version one I was dealing with terminated program. | Sep 18 10:19 |
| zlg | you know ofcourse if you dont like something and it does not work for you, you have options. | Sep 18 10:19 |
| oiaohm | Name a program that would normally have 9000 threads that was not trying to harm the system. | Sep 18 10:19 |
| oiaohm | Some times the correct answer is choke. | Sep 18 10:20 |
| oiaohm | What is the point of having a slightly faster desktop if it is more open to attack Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 10:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | that question is wrong. | Sep 18 10:23 |
| oiaohm | No it not. | Sep 18 10:23 |
| zlg | MincR, ok I do get it ..... now. :) | Sep 18 10:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: strawman attacks are lame | Sep 18 10:25 |
| oiaohm | A simple bash script can cause the looping event that provides unlimited processes. | Sep 18 10:25 |
| oiaohm | Same with any other script language. | Sep 18 10:25 |
| oiaohm | So it is the one that happens by human error. | Sep 18 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | you say that like it matters. | Sep 18 10:26 |
| zlg | would you not need SU to run such a script ? | Sep 18 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | zlg: no | Sep 18 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | the script dies normally. | Sep 18 10:26 |
| oiaohm | and started it self again as well Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 10:26 |
| oiaohm | So it never stops adding new processes. | Sep 18 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, and what does this have to do with bfs and cfs? | Sep 18 10:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | nothing. | Sep 18 10:27 |
| oiaohm | The always adding new processes is what causes dead lines trouble. | Sep 18 10:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: you're using a mingo tactic | Sep 18 10:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're bringing up something that has nothing to do with anything | Sep 18 10:27 |
| oiaohm | Sorry I am not mingo. | Sep 18 10:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | an attack against a machine has nothing to do with low latency desktops | Sep 18 10:28 |
| oiaohm | I am a person who has broken systems. You don't have to only design to cope with load. | Sep 18 10:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | the scheduler has nothing to do with the security layer | Sep 18 10:28 |
| oiaohm | Desktops will start sharing scripts. | Sep 18 10:28 |
| oiaohm | So an attack of the style I am describing could become common. | Sep 18 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | <oiaohm> we'll never need fullscreen flash1 | Sep 18 10:29 |
| oiaohm | Wrong Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 10:29 |
| oiaohm | Desktop arguement again. | Sep 18 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | HELLO | Sep 18 10:29 |
| oiaohm | That of crap. | Sep 18 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | EARTH TO OIAOHM | Sep 18 10:29 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Girls! Avoid the embarassment of misnaming during sex! (HT @picturecool) http://bit.ly/bH7qL | Sep 18 10:29 | |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS IS A SCHEDULER FOR LOW LATENCY DESKTOPS | Sep 18 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | ITS NOT FOR 4096 CPU CLUSTERS | Sep 18 10:29 |
| oiaohm | Sitting duck desktops. | Sep 18 10:29 |
| oiaohm | Waiting for the first drive by. | Sep 18 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | I think Im going to take this channel off my autojoin | Sep 18 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | roy wont do anything about the troll problem | Sep 18 10:30 |
| oiaohm | There are ways of doing low latency without forgeting about fork bomb issue. | Sep 18 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | "issue" | Sep 18 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, you fix it by not allowing to happen in the first place | Sep 18 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | the scheduler is not a security measure. | Sep 18 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you're afraid of the big bad fork bomb, use selinux and shut up already. | Sep 18 10:31 |
| oiaohm | Some of it is being smart enough not to allow new processes to keep on being processed before the old ones. | Sep 18 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: except it doesn't | Sep 18 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | you fail at comprehending deadlining. | Sep 18 10:32 |
| oiaohm | It does Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | in fact, CFS _allows_ this behavior that you just described | Sep 18 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Once you have 20 of them running in BFS | Sep 18 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | it automatically runs a new fork or thread next | Sep 18 10:32 |
| oiaohm | It loses where it is. | Sep 18 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS doesn't. | Sep 18 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Last version does. | Sep 18 10:33 |
| oiaohm | CFS has it contoled another way. | Sep 18 10:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS biases against new processes | Sep 18 10:33 |
| oiaohm | Yes it allows it but it has user spliting so a fork bomb cannot get it all. | Sep 18 10:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is a severe bug and can be used to hamper the machine | Sep 18 10:33 |
| oiaohm | Bias against new processes is also about fork bomb control. | Sep 18 10:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | almost everything you've described ia s bug in CFS and not in BFS | Sep 18 10:34 |
| oiaohm | Yes it has down sides for desktop. | Sep 18 10:34 |
| oiaohm | But you are not putting up a better way of controling fork bombs. | Sep 18 10:35 |
| oiaohm | Basically you think the issue is desktop only. | Sep 18 10:35 |
| *ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 18 10:35 | |
| oiaohm | Its not. There is a secuirty problem that no one has really worked out a painless way of handling. | Sep 18 10:35 |
| oiaohm | So CFS is a compomise. | Sep 18 10:36 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: do you have any good solutions to the fork bomb problems. This has been the problem all along not seeing that CFS maintainer has more than performance numbers to worry about. | Sep 18 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | selinux | Sep 18 10:38 |
| oiaohm | Ok selinux does not. | Sep 18 10:39 |
| oiaohm | selinux is not intergrated to monitor numbers of started processes | Sep 18 10:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | it can have rules to prevent process and thread spamming. | Sep 18 10:39 |
| oiaohm | Not effectively. | Sep 18 10:39 |
| oiaohm | Turns out those rule processing causes more load than what CFS does now. | Sep 18 10:40 |
| oiaohm | So BFS + selinux backwards. | Sep 18 10:40 |
| oiaohm | As I say there is no good existing solution for the problem Diablo-D3 | Sep 18 10:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Under Fire While #Microsoft Escapes Patent #Law (Again) http://ping.fm/lcO27 | Sep 18 10:41 | |
| oiaohm | CFS is just the best of a bad set of options for dealing with it. | Sep 18 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: basically if you can design a solution that deals with fork bombs well you will be popular. | Sep 18 10:44 |
| oiaohm | yep its one issue why CK is not getting any where and he is not working on it. | Sep 18 10:46 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/17/google_hugs_microsoft_over_html5/ | Sep 18 10:46 |
| oiaohm | MS had no option. | Sep 18 10:47 |
| oiaohm | They were going to be the ownly browser without it. | Sep 18 10:47 |
| schestowitz | *GULP* | Sep 18 10:48 |
| schestowitz | Carl Howe | Sep 18 10:48 |
| schestowitz | Director | Sep 18 10:48 |
| schestowitz | Yankee Group | Sep 18 10:48 |
| schestowitz | He's THERE now? | Sep 18 10:48 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: what about svg? | Sep 18 10:49 |
| oiaohm | IE does support svg evily. | Sep 18 10:49 |
| oiaohm | By a CSS script schestowitz | Sep 18 10:49 |
| schestowitz | Opera browser bids for America < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8261980.stm > | Sep 18 10:49 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: Google injected it into IE | Sep 18 10:49 |
| oiaohm | MS said it could be done that way. | Sep 18 10:50 |
| oiaohm | Ie the CSS way of doing svg is slow as crud. | Sep 18 10:50 |
| oiaohm | Now lets see how bad MS does video in web page. | Sep 18 10:50 |
| schestowitz | "A laugh track, sometimes called canned laughter by critics, is a collection of pre-recorded audience laughs and applause sounds added to television programs during post-production. A laugh track's main purpose is to trigger a response from home viewers who may not understand all of the intended humor during a taped sitcom." | Sep 18 10:53 |
| schestowitz | http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-laugh-track.htm | Sep 18 10:53 |
| schestowitz | http://techdirt.com/articles/20090914/0259236178.shtml | Sep 18 10:53 |
| schestowitz | IBM 'owns' it now | Sep 18 10:53 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: Microsoft does it with its codecs and Silver Lie | Sep 18 10:54 |
| schestowitz | It has vested interests | Sep 18 10:54 |
| schestowitz | http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0354056223.shtml (UK Libel Laws, Scientific Criticism, Chilling Effects, Bloggers And The Streisand Effect) | Sep 18 10:58 |
| schestowitz | Jeremy Piven Sends Cease & Desist To Stop Play From Mocking Him < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0236006220.shtml > | Sep 18 10:59 |
| schestowitz | Post newspaper era ought to be interesting..... Is It Possible For Newspapers To Save Themselves? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0244106221.shtml > | Sep 18 11:01 |
| schestowitz | "California Court: Only Reveal Anonymous Commenters If They're The People This Guy Thinks They Are" http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0200546217.shtml | Sep 18 11:04 |
| fewa | look how the media is directly opposed to the unions on the taxing of medical benifits | Sep 18 11:04 |
| fewa | ahh damn | Sep 18 11:05 |
| fewa | i cant link to it cause its a stupid AJAX page | Sep 18 11:05 |
| fewa | http://whereistand.com/177534 --> public figures | Sep 18 11:05 |
| fewa | or http://whereistand.com/ --> organizations | Sep 18 11:05 |
| oiaohm | So I don't want to be on slashdot site fewa | Sep 18 11:06 |
| fewa | oiaohm, ? | Sep 18 11:06 |
| oiaohm | Not making it simple to link to fewa | Sep 18 11:07 |
| fewa | ahh | Sep 18 11:08 |
| oiaohm | Yes I am a bit warped. | Sep 18 11:08 |
| fewa | you can actually link on slashdot | Sep 18 11:08 |
| fewa | reddit is the best though | Sep 18 11:08 |
| fewa | for linking | Sep 18 11:08 |
| oiaohm | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzU0MA << Hmm something odd is going on here. | Sep 18 11:08 |
| oiaohm | Who would think Nvidia would release any interfaces for there cards open source. | Sep 18 11:10 |
| fewa | Taxing medical care is taxing people ability to get care | Sep 18 11:10 |
| fewa | there is a reason they don't apply sales tax to food | Sep 18 11:10 |
| oiaohm | Ok here there is charities that are tax free. | Sep 18 11:12 |
| oiaohm | So result of taxing anything hard chartities get them. | Sep 18 11:12 |
| fewa | what are you saying? | Sep 18 11:14 |
| oiaohm | Australian tax system. | Sep 18 11:14 |
| fewa | but you havnt explained it | Sep 18 11:15 |
| oiaohm | They put gst on sales of secound hand items. So now most secound hand stores are going charities because they don't have to pay the tax. | Sep 18 11:15 |
| oiaohm | And it happened many times over here. | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | lol | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | charities here have to pay taxes too | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | o wait | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | do people donate the items | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | and then they give them to the end user? | Sep 18 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Mixture | Sep 18 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Some donated some they have aquired. | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | cause under US law thats what you would have to do | Sep 18 11:16 |
| fewa | US tax law on non-profits is very strict | Sep 18 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Yes our non-profits law is more open. | Sep 18 11:17 |
| oiaohm | its where the income is going is important here. | Sep 18 11:17 |
| fewa | There are tax exclusions, but you have to carefully account things | Sep 18 11:17 |
| fewa | at least for the 501(c)3 | Sep 18 11:17 |
| fewa | which gives doners tax deductability | Sep 18 11:17 |
| oiaohm | We have charities all ready running retirement homes. | Sep 18 11:18 |
| fewa | the biggest loop hole in charity tax law here is churches | Sep 18 11:18 |
| fewa | they get away with alot | Sep 18 11:18 |
| oiaohm | We have a few church run hospitials here. | Sep 18 11:18 |
| oiaohm | Yep tax loop holes being exploited all over the place. | Sep 18 11:18 |
| fewa | especially since its _really_ easy to be classified as a church in the US | Sep 18 11:18 |
| fewa | for example scentology | Sep 18 11:18 |
| oiaohm | So make some form of church were giving medicial care was doing you religous duty hell tax hole. | Sep 18 11:19 |
| fewa | While I think non-profits churches can be run, its cool when churches can really serve communities and remain open despite poor clientele, little donations | Sep 18 11:19 |
| fewa | they should not be able to do business under that tax shelter | Sep 18 11:19 |
| fewa | only be a church with a limited number of functions | Sep 18 11:20 |
| fewa | for example I believe churches are immune from property tax | Sep 18 11:20 |
| fewa | 1) that could be a break of the separation of church and state, if the church is doing business at the place where they get tax immunity | Sep 18 11:21 |
| fewa | 2) if they get such exclusions they should not be able to make their institutions private clubs | Sep 18 11:22 |
| fewa | oiaohm, well, if it was a charity I fully support that | Sep 18 11:22 |
| fewa | but only if it is charity | Sep 18 11:22 |
| fewa | for example, think of Remote Area Medical | Sep 18 11:22 |
| fewa | groups like that need an environment where they can do their work | Sep 18 11:23 |
| fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht_W5_Ogh0U http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/22/uninsured_travel_from_across_us_for | Sep 18 11:23 |
| fewa | that youtube is good, from Real Time with Bill Maher | Sep 18 11:24 |
| oiaohm | http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=4003 << Hmm student get Windows 7 cheep. | Sep 18 11:24 |
| fewa | oiaohm, cheap is relative http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001301.html | Sep 18 11:33 |
| fewa | Nike creates "Nike stores" in mall that are designed to lose money | Sep 18 11:34 |
| fewa | What they do is place Nike shoes on pedestals with exorbitantly high price tags | Sep 18 11:34 |
| fewa | to create the illusion of value | Sep 18 11:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: ugh | Sep 18 11:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | you know what I hate? | Sep 18 11:34 |
| fewa | when the people in china, in vietname, in laos, who make those shoes, get under a dollar a shoe | Sep 18 11:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | nike shoes | Sep 18 11:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | not only are they vastly inferior quality | Sep 18 11:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | they cost money | Sep 18 11:35 |
| fewa | this is like "cheap" Windows | Sep 18 11:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | I can own a non-AAA brand of sneakers for yeaaaaaarrs | Sep 18 11:35 |
| schestowitz | Nike is cr*p | Sep 18 11:35 |
| fewa | Microsoft would pay you to use their software | Sep 18 11:35 |
| schestowitz | My Nike shoes always fall apart fast | Sep 18 11:36 |
| oiaohm | Rebboks are good shoes but someone need to work on there shoe coloring system. All the ones I have had end up bare leather. | Sep 18 11:36 |
| schestowitz | It's all branding, like Cola | Sep 18 11:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | a pair of nikes would cost me like 10 times more and last a year | Sep 18 11:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | I actually wish I could afford to have a pair of nice shoes cobbled | Sep 18 11:36 |
| fewa | as it is free to provide to one additional person, they just make a copy. And it increases the market effects value of their platform | Sep 18 11:36 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yes, Reebok works well for me | Sep 18 11:36 |
| schestowitz | But the crime there is to do with wage slavery | Sep 18 11:36 |
| schestowitz | There's no police to investigate this human rights issue | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | all clothes here are like that | Sep 18 11:37 |
| oiaohm | I wish I could get Reeboks without there come off shoe coating and apply my own. | Sep 18 11:37 |
| oiaohm | Then i could get about 6 years our a pair of shoes. | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | I cannot find clothes that are actually based on the cost it tool to produce them | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | its not a functioning market | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | it the science of exploitation | Sep 18 11:37 |
| oiaohm | instead of 3 year work and 3 years home. | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | the cotton in a shirt costs 20c | Sep 18 11:37 |
| oiaohm | Because the color of shoe is stuffed up. | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | the labor costs 20c | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | and they sell the shirt for $11 | Sep 18 11:37 |
| fewa | its rediculous | Sep 18 11:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: see, you know whats retarded? | Sep 18 11:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | we still have humans doing this work | Sep 18 11:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | humans cause inferior quality | Sep 18 11:38 |
| oiaohm | Problem here how many shirts get recycled because no one buys them fewa | Sep 18 11:38 |
| fewa | if they sold for the price of doing business then maybe there would be some equalization of wealth | Sep 18 11:38 |
| oiaohm | Its not just the cost of making them its the shipping and waste. | Sep 18 11:38 |
| fewa | paying people little is OK, if labor costs are based on the value created--it would just create deflation | Sep 18 11:39 |
| oiaohm | Humans are a very wasteful creature. | Sep 18 11:39 |
| fewa | lower the prices of everything | Sep 18 11:39 |
| fewa | oiaohm, yeah, and they don't even recycle the cotton like they use to | Sep 18 11:39 |
| fewa | instead they just grow more, shrinking the caspian sea even more | Sep 18 11:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | aslo | Sep 18 11:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | where the hell are my microfiber hemp tshirts | Sep 18 11:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | I want a tshirt that lasts longer than I do, is more fade resistant, breaths better, resists tearing and threading and nuddling, lighter, and more fire resistant | Sep 18 11:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | lets face it, cotton sucks for materials | Sep 18 11:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | and half polyester half cotton shirts are a hack | Sep 18 11:41 |
| fewa | wait, aral sea | Sep 18 11:41 |
| fewa | which is almost gone | Sep 18 11:41 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea | Sep 18 11:41 |
| oiaohm | for fabric one of the best is hemp. Problem is no where want to allow it grown in large ammounts. | Sep 18 11:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | Seriously, if we're going to be pissed at shit, lets choose shit that is more important here | Sep 18 11:42 |
| fewa | and hemp doesn't cause the massive environmental destruction that help causes | Sep 18 11:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have a right to superior products! | Sep 18 11:42 |
| fewa | hemp makes the soil better | Sep 18 11:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | I am an american! | Sep 18 11:42 |
| fewa | extremely sustainable crop | Sep 18 11:42 |
| zlg | cotten and wool are quite fire resistant, that's why firefighters are not allowed to wear nylog jocks | Sep 18 11:42 |
| zlg | nylon* | Sep 18 11:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | zlg: no, nylon _melts_ | Sep 18 11:42 |
| oiaohm | hemp and cotten are equally fire resistant. | Sep 18 11:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | cotton is inferior to hemp under fire resistance | Sep 18 11:43 |
| fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9UF-pFhJY | Sep 18 11:43 |
| zlg | Thats right melts and BURNS. | Sep 18 11:43 |
| fewa | Hemp for Victory! | Sep 18 11:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | hemp can do what cotton does with addatives | Sep 18 11:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | said addatives cause cancer and skin irritation | Sep 18 11:43 |
| oiaohm | there is a lot of work to produce hemp without the drug part. | Sep 18 11:43 |
| fewa | shows the corruption | Sep 18 11:44 |
| oiaohm | Because if that works well it can replace cotton. | Sep 18 11:44 |
| oiaohm | Biggest issue is that burning hemp can become a little bit of a problem. | Sep 18 11:44 |
| zlg | hemp was used far before it was really used as a drug, remember help rope, and they have thc free hemp now and for a long time. | Sep 18 11:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | hemp has useless levels of THC, oiaohm | Sep 18 11:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | hemp was never a drug, zlg | Sep 18 11:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're thinking of pot | Sep 18 11:45 |
| zlg | it's the same geanus | Sep 18 11:45 |
| zlg | satvia | Sep 18 11:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but one contains THC, the other really doesnt | Sep 18 11:46 |
| oiaohm | Hemp and pot were the same plant. Only in modern day times has a genically altered one that people call hemp come into existance with ower THC. | Sep 18 11:46 |
| oiaohm | ower/lower | Sep 18 11:46 |
| oiaohm | Note not 0 | Sep 18 11:47 |
| oiaohm | So far 0 has not be achieved. | Sep 18 11:47 |
| fewa | meh its not a problem in burning it | Sep 18 11:47 |
| fewa | the modern hemp has much less THC than help of 1900 | Sep 18 11:47 |
| fewa | which was already extremely low | Sep 18 11:47 |
| fewa | I'm sure they could get it lower if they wanted | Sep 18 11:47 |
| zlg | in fact with selective breading, modern pot has much higher THC to THA ratio, ie it's more potent. | Sep 18 11:48 |
| oiaohm | The burning is not just drug. Its tar production as well. | Sep 18 11:48 |
| fewa | to het high you would have to breath tons and tons of it | Sep 18 11:48 |
| fewa | ahhh, ok | Sep 18 11:48 |
| fewa | tar is valuable | Sep 18 11:48 |
| fewa | if it can be purified | Sep 18 11:48 |
| fewa | we are using oil to produce tar | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | but that is not replentishable | Sep 18 11:49 |
| oiaohm | But not when you are breathing it. | Sep 18 11:49 |
| oiaohm | Because it is burning. | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | well yeah | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | there are probably better ways of burning it | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | processing the dust | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | coal dust is certainly much woorse | Sep 18 11:49 |
| zlg | also use oil to make nylon and plastics | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | and we burn tons of dust | Sep 18 11:49 |
| oiaohm | So a form that burns clean or burns low tar for something that might get lit up would be better. | Sep 18 11:49 |
| fewa | *tons of coal | Sep 18 11:50 |
| oiaohm | Note cotton does burn low tar. | Sep 18 11:50 |
| fewa | you can also not burn it , but compost it | Sep 18 11:50 |
| fewa | composts great | Sep 18 11:50 |
| fewa | and nylon doesn't at all | Sep 18 11:50 |
| fewa | and cotton, extremely poorely | Sep 18 11:51 |
| oiaohm | I was thinking for something you are wearing firer fighting. | Sep 18 11:51 |
| fewa | for a biological thing | Sep 18 11:51 |
| fewa | ahh | Sep 18 11:51 |
| oiaohm | You have enouth problems without what you are wearing being a threat. | Sep 18 11:51 |
| fewa | well thats specialist | Sep 18 11:51 |
| fewa | im not too interested in that | Sep 18 11:51 |
| fewa | and they already have alot of solutions for that | Sep 18 11:51 |
| oiaohm | I would like to see some of the items allowed into houses cleaned up. | Sep 18 11:52 |
| oiaohm | A lot of people die due to toxic smoke in house fires. | Sep 18 11:52 |
| fewa | thats really hard to prevent | Sep 18 11:52 |
| oiaohm | Were 1 or 2 breaths of it and you are done. | Sep 18 11:52 |
| fewa | _tons_ of stuff in houses is toxic if burned | Sep 18 11:52 |
| fewa | all plastic | Sep 18 11:52 |
| fewa | most electronics | Sep 18 11:53 |
| fewa | ROHS is great | Sep 18 11:53 |
| fewa | cleaning up the act of highly polluting electronics | Sep 18 11:53 |
| fewa | for example iPods | Sep 18 11:53 |
| oiaohm | Not all plastics | Sep 18 11:54 |
| fewa | all the oil-based ones | Sep 18 11:54 |
| oiaohm | Not even all oil-based ones. | Sep 18 11:54 |
| oiaohm | The worse ones burn to release a nevese system poison. | Sep 18 11:55 |
| fewa | what plastics do not produce diaxanon when burned | Sep 18 11:55 |
| fewa | ?? | Sep 18 11:55 |
| fewa | diazanon | Sep 18 11:55 |
| fewa | thats the nervous system poison ur talking about | Sep 18 11:55 |
| oiaohm | Some of the colourings in the plastics react in the burn preventing diazanon from forming. | Sep 18 11:56 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazinon one of the worst poisons known to man | Sep 18 11:56 |
| oiaohm | Its not all. | Sep 18 11:56 |
| oiaohm | Just god darn most. I don't think lot of people would like if there items where bright purple. | Sep 18 11:57 |
| fewa | well ok, i remain mostly right | Sep 18 11:57 |
| fewa | cause i have not seen such plastics | Sep 18 11:57 |
| fewa | the native americans here burn plastic | Sep 18 11:57 |
| fewa | it is horrible | Sep 18 11:57 |
| fewa | they don't know better | Sep 18 11:58 |
| fewa | *some of them | Sep 18 11:58 |
| zlg | Arnt you glad electronics are no longer producted with this stuff in it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_biphenyl | Sep 18 11:58 |
| oiaohm | What do you mean not producted with that stuff zlg | Sep 18 11:59 |
| oiaohm | Not all third world places have stoped using it. | Sep 18 11:59 |
| zlg | ive seen it in use here in Australia as well for military applications, but it's still nasty stuff. like berillium | Sep 18 12:00 |
| fewa | thats why im happy about ROHS | Sep 18 12:01 |
| fewa | US government is too in the hands of the big corps to do things like that these days | Sep 18 12:01 |
| fewa | it use to be the best | Sep 18 12:02 |
| fewa | and ROHS improves all electronics | Sep 18 12:02 |
| zlg | yes, we were in a continuous process of removing it and onsite storage of it. | Sep 18 12:02 |
| fewa | I guess California has done some stuff | Sep 18 12:03 |
| fewa | they collect a recycle surcharge on LCD and CRT monitors now | Sep 18 12:03 |
| fewa | to cover state recycling | Sep 18 12:03 |
| zlg | they should charge the manufacturer the cost of effective and safe disposal. | Sep 18 12:04 |
| fewa | they are effectively doing that | Sep 18 12:04 |
| fewa | if you buy it and live in the state of calif | Sep 18 12:05 |
| zlg | yes, ive seen some of that myself. | Sep 18 12:05 |
| fewa | the seller has to collect that surcharge | Sep 18 12:05 |
| fewa | which is a cost-based charge on the products future recycling | Sep 18 12:05 |
| fewa | here people use to give the broken monitors to a charity/second hand shop | Sep 18 12:06 |
| fewa | because its a good business that recycles them | Sep 18 12:06 |
| fewa | but it stop accepting them cause too many people did it, people who don't want to pay $9 to do the right thing | Sep 18 12:06 |
| zlg | thats another reason why I use something until it breaks, then I replace it and upgrade. But not before | Sep 18 12:06 |
| fewa | meh, with computer you have to upgrade eventually | Sep 18 12:07 |
| fewa | so you have to focus instead of having the electronics recyclable | Sep 18 12:07 |
| fewa | thats why RoHS is so important | Sep 18 12:07 |
| zlg | fewa as it should be, it had to be paid by someone so before it is recycled. | Sep 18 12:07 |
| fewa | we really need talk-back rules | Sep 18 12:07 |
| fewa | any electronics have to be taken back by the manufacture and properly recycled | Sep 18 12:08 |
| zlg | Junked electronics has more gold and precious metals then the equivalent raw ore from the best mines. | Sep 18 12:08 |
| fewa | problem is that they tend to smuggle the electronics illegally to china, where they are dumped | Sep 18 12:08 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_waste | Sep 18 12:08 |
| zlg | and in china OH&S is not a big thing | Sep 18 12:08 |
| fewa | zlg, still costs money to recycle in a way that doesn't hurt the environment | Sep 18 12:09 |
| zlg | sure does. | Sep 18 12:09 |
| fewa | thats why its illegal to export e-waste | Sep 18 12:09 |
| schestowitz | Unless it's Africa | Sep 18 12:09 |
| fewa | I realized dban is made by a recycling company | Sep 18 12:09 |
| fewa | http://www.dban.org/ | Sep 18 12:09 |
| fewa | yeah they "give" them used computers | Sep 18 12:09 |
| fewa | that are worthless, so they have to take the poisonous chemicals | Sep 18 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Harddrives are getting too large to dban. | Sep 18 12:10 |
| fewa | http://www.geepglobal.com/ | Sep 18 12:10 |
| fewa | oiaohm, does it not support 48-bit LBA? | Sep 18 12:11 |
| fewa | the 137GB limit? | Sep 18 12:11 |
| fewa | or just the time | Sep 18 12:11 |
| oiaohm | Time | Sep 18 12:12 |
| oiaohm | dban uses a linux kernel so not that limited. | Sep 18 12:12 |
| oiaohm | 250GB on a lot of drives single pass takes 8 hours. | Sep 18 12:13 |
| fewa | ahh, they do it in an automated manner | Sep 18 12:13 |
| oiaohm | 1TB drives are getting kinda insane to Dban. | Sep 18 12:13 |
| fewa | "EBAN" | Sep 18 12:13 |
| oiaohm | Lot don't. | Sep 18 12:13 |
| fewa | with netbooking | Sep 18 12:13 |
| fewa | *netbooting | Sep 18 12:13 |
| trmanco | http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.2/beta/2 | Sep 18 12:14 |
| oiaohm | It still having the hardware to do it fewa | Sep 18 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Along with the space and them time fewa | Sep 18 12:14 |
| fewa | well they are liquidating existing computers | Sep 18 12:14 |
| fewa | thats their business | Sep 18 12:14 |
| fewa | liquidation of used electronics | Sep 18 12:14 |
| oiaohm | I work when I have time with a group refurbishing and recycling old computers. | Sep 18 12:15 |
| fewa | there is a group that does that here | Sep 18 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Lot of companies will only give drives once they are cleared by them. | Sep 18 12:15 |
| fewa | well dban was made so they would give assurances to companies | Sep 18 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Problem is we see drives are going to dry up or be made useless. | Sep 18 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Drives cleared by coil method only about 1 in 10 work at best. | Sep 18 12:16 |
| fewa | coil method? | Sep 18 12:16 |
| oiaohm | degausing the drive completely. | Sep 18 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Takes about 42 seconds. | Sep 18 12:16 |
| fewa | still not sure what that is | Sep 18 12:17 |
| fewa | ahh | Sep 18 12:17 |
| fewa | magnet | Sep 18 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Electo magnet | Sep 18 12:17 |
| oiaohm | changing a lot. | Sep 18 12:17 |
| fewa | yeah thats how you hack into web sites :P | Sep 18 12:17 |
| fewa | just put a strong magnet next to your hard drive :P | Sep 18 12:18 |
| oiaohm | Altering magnet is required. | Sep 18 12:18 |
| oiaohm | To degaus effectively. | Sep 18 12:18 |
| fewa | yeah ic/no | Sep 18 12:18 |
| oiaohm | Fixed direction does not create back ground noise to hide the data for good. | Sep 18 12:19 |
| oiaohm | Yes it very destuctive on the live of drive. | Sep 18 12:19 |
| oiaohm | Lot of drives these days go up in secound hand auctions here degaused to death. | Sep 18 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Nothing mechanically wrong with drive other than the platers being too scambled to write or read from anymore. | Sep 18 12:22 |
| zlg | it's crazy to subject a HD to that, if that is what you're talking about, bulk errasers are for tape, I would hate to imagine what effect the eddy currents would be doing to the electronics and read head. | Sep 18 12:24 |
| zlg | that's amateur hour stuff. | Sep 18 12:25 |
| oiaohm | Yep why its only 1 in 10 drives work as best. | Sep 18 12:25 |
| oiaohm | Supprising most controllers and heads live. | Sep 18 12:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of them if you have other drives of the same type with dead controls/heads you can swap the parts. I do have a clean room box for it zlg | Sep 18 12:26 |
| oiaohm | I would say only about 1 in 100 drive heads die from it. | Sep 18 12:26 |
| zlg | I bet the bulk earser fixes the medium with too much force more than the gauss that the write head can generate. | Sep 18 12:26 |
| oiaohm | And about 1 in 2000 controllers. | Sep 18 12:26 |
| oiaohm | Yep zlg and its being able to undo the damage. | Sep 18 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Without pushing it too much the other way. | Sep 18 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Ie the area where the write head can alter in field is not that large. | Sep 18 12:28 |
| zlg | in theory if you do it right, like you have to do to degauss and CRT then you probably would get away with it. | Sep 18 12:28 |
| oiaohm | Its doing it right bit. | Sep 18 12:29 |
| zlg | there are other far more eligant methods to ensure a blank HD that's for sure. | Sep 18 12:29 |
| oiaohm | Melt it is the simplest. | Sep 18 12:30 |
| oiaohm | Ok no drive but no data coming back either. | Sep 18 12:30 |
| zlg | like the guy in "the core" dumping his CD's in the microwave when the feds raided him. | Sep 18 12:32 |
| zlg | he also used a bulk erraser on his HD's too. | Sep 18 12:32 |
| oiaohm | CD in microwave funny enough depending in brand does not always destory the data. | Sep 18 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Some brands it only takes the back coating off. Put it in some brands of dvd rom drives and it reads perfectly. | Sep 18 12:34 |
| zlg | looks good :) | Sep 18 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Since they are not depending on the back reflective coating. | Sep 18 12:34 |
| oiaohm | I also find those drives handy for disks that have damaged backs. | Sep 18 12:35 |
| fewa | cool | Sep 18 12:36 |
| MinceR | what brands? | Sep 18 12:39 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Not going to say. Yes spoil sport. If people near me work out what I am using I will not make some of the recovery profit getting there dvd's and games back. | Sep 18 12:46 |
| MinceR | :) | Sep 18 12:46 |
| oiaohm | I was mean enough to recase a few of them into different brands. ie brands that will not work. | Sep 18 12:47 |
| fewa | http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200906/errord/wtf--2.jpg | Sep 18 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | ffffffff | Sep 18 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: at least they're honest | Sep 18 12:54 |
| zlg | it's ok it's not under "services". | Sep 18 12:55 |
| schestowitz | Google easter eggs: 15 best hidden jokes http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/6201814/Google-easter-eggs-15-best-hidden-jokes.html | Sep 18 12:57 |
| schestowitz | Seagate Unveils Filesharing Hardware For The Home http://www.informationweek.com/news/hardware/peripherals/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=220000768 | Sep 18 12:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] RT: @scientes: @EFF has released a great balanced curriculum to fit the same #California #copyright mandate http://tinyurl.com/o59bxj | Sep 18 12:58 | |
| schestowitz | MacForensicsLab Inc. Releases Free Tool for Investigating Crimes Against Children http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS120586+17-Sep-2009+BW20090917 | Sep 18 13:00 |
| schestowitz | Ewwww... wine. http://jaxov.com/2009/09/how-to-access-mozilla-firefox-cache-in-ubuntu-linux/ | Sep 18 13:00 |
| fewa | http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200905/errord/password.png | Sep 18 13:01 |
| schestowitz | Must be bad coding | Sep 18 13:05 |
| fewa | windows idiocy http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/200909/err1/times_square_ss.jpg | Sep 18 13:05 |
| schestowitz | Advert | Sep 18 13:08 |
| fewa | yeah | Sep 18 13:09 |
| fewa | free one too | Sep 18 13:09 |
| fewa | (perhaps) | Sep 18 13:09 |
| schestowitz | THey know why they put the logo there | Sep 18 13:20 |
| MinceR | :) | Sep 18 13:21 |
| schestowitz | http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-09-18-pakistan-violence_N.htm | Sep 18 13:25 |
| schestowitz | [IMG] http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/1030_signs.jpg | Sep 18 13:29 |
| fewa | looks shooped | Sep 18 13:31 |
| oiaohm | http://blackbag.nl/?p=940 << Hmm opps key cloning might get too simple. | Sep 18 13:33 |
| fewa | schestowitz, what happens when USA decides its going to colonize the place for the next 50 years | Sep 18 13:34 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] Looks like the Philadelphia library system will remain open! http://tinyurl.com/loxxmc @doctorow @gruber | Sep 18 13:34 | |
| schestowitz | See first pic here: http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/09/a-trip-down-memory-lane-and-beyond-at-vintage-computer-fest.ars | Sep 18 13:34 |
| fewa | US involvement has created a rise in the taliban there | Sep 18 13:35 |
| schestowitz | Now worries | Sep 18 13:35 |
| schestowitz | Just keep the Gates shut | Sep 18 13:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/09/verizon-smartphones/ | Sep 18 13:35 |
| fewa | so true | Sep 18 13:36 |
| schestowitz | The future is now *gasp* Wikileaks is hosting a copy of the "1,841,177 post codes together with precise geographic coordinates and other information" for the UK. | Sep 18 13:36 |
| fewa | they use a propritary stack, not even any java | Sep 18 13:37 |
| schestowitz | http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/17/britains-postal-code.html | Sep 18 13:37 |
| schestowitz | http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/09/17/peugeot_bb1/ | Sep 18 13:37 |
| fewa | which is standard in phones | Sep 18 13:37 |
| fewa | no sim cards | Sep 18 13:37 |
| fewa | completely closed network | Sep 18 13:37 |
| fewa | europe is so much better | Sep 18 13:37 |
| schestowitz | I'm sure it matter more which model they put in the ads | Sep 18 13:37 |
| fewa | yeah you have to pay for GPS | Sep 18 13:37 |
| schestowitz | Many "consumers" don't look at technical details | Sep 18 13:37 |
| fewa | ive bought other pay as you go phones where the gps works even if you dont have any service | Sep 18 13:38 |
| schestowitz | They are interested in which celebrity uses what | Sep 18 13:38 |
| fewa | big thing is it is not your phone | Sep 18 13:38 |
| fewa | that needs to be pressed | Sep 18 13:38 |
| fewa | and consumer protection needs to force them to disclaim that | Sep 18 13:38 |
| zlg | the GPS reciever does not rely on the phone having a service. | Sep 18 13:38 |
| schestowitz | Uncle Sam Eyes Vehicle Tracking Tax http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/uncle-sam-eyes-vehicle-tracking-tax/ | Sep 18 13:38 |
| fewa | you dont one a computer unless you can change the software | Sep 18 13:38 |
| fewa | zlg, but verizon phones are defective by design | Sep 18 13:39 |
| schestowitz | fewa: BUT... | Sep 18 13:39 |
| schestowitz | You do own it if it accepts another OS | Sep 18 13:39 |
| fewa | *ownn | Sep 18 13:39 |
| schestowitz | A free one | Sep 18 13:39 |
| schestowitz | Even Macs allow this | Sep 18 13:39 |
| fewa | exactly | Sep 18 13:39 |
| schestowitz | Not TiVo | Sep 18 13:39 |
| fewa | thats ability to change the software | Sep 18 13:39 |
| fewa | even if only at the lowest level | Sep 18 13:39 |
| fewa | you cant do that with phones | Sep 18 13:39 |
| zlg | you own many computers that you do not have access to the code. | Sep 18 13:39 |
| fewa | they use trecherous computing | Sep 18 13:39 |
| schestowitz | 'Rich Seattle suburbs install ubiquitous surveillance cameras, cops follow all "suspicious" vehicles' http://www.boingboing.net/2009/09/16/rich-seattle-suburbs.html | Sep 18 13:40 |
| fewa | for example, Apple defending of security through obscurity on the iPhone | Sep 18 13:40 |
| fewa | they said that if the FTC says unlocking iPhones is legal, that it will kill people calling 911 | Sep 18 13:40 |
| fewa | if that is so, then obviously their network sucks, and needs to be redesigned | Sep 18 13:40 |
| fewa | just playing the fear card | Sep 18 13:41 |
| zlg | it's a legal requirement that cell phone can call 911 (000) without a service provider | Sep 18 13:42 |
| trmanco | http://www.redmondpie.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/189156801.png | Sep 18 13:42 |
| fewa | i know | Sep 18 13:42 |
| fewa | Apple was lying that "evil hackers" would clog up the tubes | Sep 18 13:42 |
| fewa | and their whole network would break | Sep 18 13:42 |
| fewa | and claiming that their network was completely insecure | Sep 18 13:42 |
| fewa | personally, I will never use a smartphone until I can get root | Sep 18 13:43 |
| fewa | and there is realy software for it | Sep 18 13:43 |
| fewa | *real | Sep 18 13:43 |
| fewa | or just put phone into a netbook | Sep 18 13:44 |
| zlg | I just want to be able to make and receive calls :) | Sep 18 13:44 |
| fewa | but of course you cant do that, because the cell phone companies are the most un-net-neutral closed systems in the country | Sep 18 13:44 |
| fewa | zlg, agreed | Sep 18 13:44 |
| fewa | thats i will use a "phone" for | Sep 18 13:45 |
| fewa | *thats all | Sep 18 13:45 |
| fewa | its a business model based on ripping people off with overages | Sep 18 13:45 |
| fewa | lock in | Sep 18 13:45 |
| fewa | and running on the back of public airwaves | Sep 18 13:45 |
| *wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 13:45 | |
| zlg | mine does heaps of things, including working as a high speed digital model, camera, music and video player, all the usual crap. (that I never use), Even video phone :) | Sep 18 13:46 |
| fewa | but you have to pay for everything | Sep 18 13:46 |
| fewa | outrageous rates | Sep 18 13:47 |
| fewa | some phone you hve to pay to get the photos even off the damn things | Sep 18 13:47 |
| zlg | yes, allthough I do have a free amount of download's, it's not much and it's a package. | Sep 18 13:47 |
| fewa | I just don't support such coercion and racketeering | Sep 18 13:47 |
| fewa | thats what it is | Sep 18 13:47 |
| fewa | "free" | Sep 18 13:47 |
| zlg | Mine just reads as a usb memory stick. folder | Sep 18 13:48 |
| fewa | you pay for service dont you? | Sep 18 13:48 |
| zlg | ofcourse I pay for the service, I pay for my water and food and electricity too. | Sep 18 13:48 |
| fewa | they its not free | Sep 18 13:48 |
| fewa | *then | Sep 18 13:49 |
| zlg | no it's not, it's also not free to establish the infrastructure for it either or run and maintain it. | Sep 18 13:49 |
| zlg | or buy the bandwidth. | Sep 18 13:49 |
| fewa | yes, yes, yes | Sep 18 13:50 |
| fewa | im not saying it shoud be free | Sep 18 13:50 |
| fewa | but you are the one that called it free | Sep 18 13:50 |
| fewa | not me | Sep 18 13:50 |
| zlg | did I ? | Sep 18 13:50 |
| fewa | <zlg> yes, allthough I do have a free amount of download's | Sep 18 13:50 |
| fewa | and the costs would be much lower if network providers allowed a free market in cell phones and software | Sep 18 13:51 |
| zlg | yes, I pay for my phone service, included in that basic rate I also get a number of free phone calls, and an amount of data transfer off the net | Sep 18 13:52 |
| fewa | zlg, you dont get it | Sep 18 13:52 |
| fewa | if you pay for it, it is by definition not free | Sep 18 13:52 |
| zlg | There is a free market in cell phones and software. | Sep 18 13:52 |
| fewa | the word you are looking for is "complamentary" | Sep 18 13:52 |
| fewa | zlg, according to who | Sep 18 13:52 |
| zlg | I can buy all software of brands of cell phone, from different manufactures and even countries, with different software and OS's on them, and I have a choice of service providers to choose from. | Sep 18 13:54 |
| zlg | So according to me, | Sep 18 13:54 |
| fewa | http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5326212/14041540 | Sep 18 13:55 |
| fewa | hmm, doesnt seem like the best video | Sep 18 13:57 |
| fewa | there was a at&t rep that basically admitted it not being a free market | Sep 18 13:57 |
| fewa | that the exclusivity arrangement was not founded in technical arrangements | Sep 18 13:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SELinux Shows Sandbox -X http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/31146.html | Sep 18 13:58 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SELinux Shows #Sandbox -X http://danwalsh.livejournal.com/31146.html #linux | Sep 18 13:58 | |
| zlg | It's not due to there being a limited amount of bandwidth. | Sep 18 13:59 |
| zlg | unless you can get the dollars together to buy the bandwidth, you're screwed. | Sep 18 13:59 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #HewlettPackard Advertises #GNU #Linux as "User Friendly" http://linusearch.com/wordpress/?p=472 | Sep 18 14:00 | |
| fewa | zlg, the bandwidth is the electromagnetic spectrum | Sep 18 14:00 |
| fewa | its a public resource | Sep 18 14:01 |
| zlg | you cannot simply start to use bandwidth or spectrum, they are bought and sold in auction for vast sums of money for the right to use it. | Sep 18 14:02 |
| zlg | It most certainly is NOT a public resource to use as you wish. | Sep 18 14:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mainframe Servers Dominated by #GNU #Linux and Still No Going Away http://bit.ly/48HvDt | Sep 18 14:02 | |
| fewa | zlg, yes the FCC is suppose to be the public trustee | Sep 18 14:04 |
| fewa | acting on the behalf of consumers and the public | Sep 18 14:05 |
| zlg | and they are | Sep 18 14:05 |
| fewa | John Kerry: "who really owns your phone?" http://www.savetheinternet.com/blog/09/06/16/who-really-owns-your-phone | Sep 18 14:06 |
| zlg | we dont have that type of tying here in Aus, we can buy any brand phone and attach it to any service provider you choose. | Sep 18 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Not eactly | Sep 18 14:09 |
| oiaohm | We do have plan phones zlg | Sep 18 14:09 |
| oiaohm | That you have to pay a fee to unlock before plan in up zlg | Sep 18 14:09 |
| zlg | yes, we do, but after the plan expires you can drop in a pre-paid sim or a sim from another provider. | Sep 18 14:09 |
| zlg | agreed. | Sep 18 14:10 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu 9.10 Reaches Last Alpha http://bit.ly/2qHv3J http://bit.ly/1pihsT http://bit.ly/qn2hn | Sep 18 14:10 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Amarok 2.2 Reaches Beta 2 http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.2/beta/2 | Sep 18 14:10 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gentoo Releases Maintenance Guide http://bit.ly/ScE0Z #linux | Sep 18 14:10 | |
| zlg | that is also used to curb phone theft. | Sep 18 14:11 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Acquires New, Happy Users http://bit.ly/Nh6qW | Sep 18 14:12 | |
| oiaohm | Lot less negitive reviews of Linux around. | Sep 18 14:17 |
| schestowitz | Very rare | Sep 18 14:17 |
| schestowitz | Unless they are hidden somewhere | Sep 18 14:17 |
| schestowitz | Yesterday I found a "why to avoid Linux" post | Sep 18 14:17 |
| schestowitz | It said... well, because Linux is developed by companies that are funded by charity :-) :-) | Sep 18 14:18 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Sep 18 14:18 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Palm dumps Windows Mobile http://bit.ly/ra6da | Sep 18 14:18 | |
| oiaohm | Linux is mostly funding by companies than need a cheep OS to do something else to make money. | Sep 18 14:19 |
| oiaohm | than/that | Sep 18 14:19 |
| schestowitz | Yes, exactly | Sep 18 14:19 |
| schestowitz | That post had many comments, obviouslyt | Sep 18 14:19 |
| schestowitz | I thought it was obviously at first quick sight | Sep 18 14:19 |
| schestowitz | But it was serious. SOmeone who probably never used Linux.... | Sep 18 14:20 |
| schestowitz | Several years ago I thought OS X was based on Linux | Sep 18 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Still are large section of kernel development comes from super computer development teams. | Sep 18 14:20 |
| schestowitz | Someone had to correct me | Sep 18 14:20 |
| schestowitz | [When OS X was young and I didn't keep good track of things] | Sep 18 14:20 |
| zlg | or who does not understand that charities do not generally FUND things. | Sep 18 14:20 |
| schestowitz | I used some OS 9 at the time | Sep 18 14:20 |
| oiaohm | zlg Linux foundation is techically a charity. | Sep 18 14:21 |
| oiaohm | That gets a hell load of cash. | Sep 18 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Ok Linux world is good at avoiding the Tax man. | Sep 18 14:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Company That Viciously Attacked #OLPC #Charity Now Prioritises #Linux on #Sub-notebooks http://bit.ly/FHDvJ | Sep 18 14:22 | |
| fewa | http://www.savetheinternet.com/blog/09/06/16/who-really-owns-your-phone | Sep 18 14:22 |
| fewa | yep Linux is a charity | Sep 18 14:23 |
| fewa | funded by peoples own self interest | Sep 18 14:23 |
| fewa | thats how the world should work | Sep 18 14:23 |
| fewa | in reference to the actual kernel | Sep 18 14:24 |
| fewa | so the foundation is a non-profit? | Sep 18 14:24 |
| fewa | I guess it makes since | Sep 18 14:24 |
| zlg | for every gift there is a "giver" and a "receiver" if everyone works as a charity, you destroy the balance of givers and receivers. | Sep 18 14:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #DragonFly #BSD 2.4 Officially Released to the Public http://bit.ly/q2DGt | Sep 18 14:26 | |
| MinceR | even if everyone is a charity, they can still receive gifts. | Sep 18 14:26 |
| fewa | zlg, a gift is defined as thing given without the expectation of recieving anything in return | Sep 18 14:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Visa Looks Into #FreeSoftware (Hadoop) http://bit.ly/18RCQu | Sep 18 14:27 | |
| zlg | yes, that's correct, but for it to be "GIVEN" requires a giver, | Sep 18 14:27 |
| fewa | so perhaps the expectation that those who have want linux changed is makes it not a gift to them | Sep 18 14:27 |
| fewa | or the expectation that people will report bugs | Sep 18 14:28 |
| fewa | but i think the vast number of people that use Linux are not neccicarily expected to contribute back | Sep 18 14:28 |
| fewa | due to the easy-copying nature of the internet they don't have to | Sep 18 14:28 |
| oiaohm | http://lwn.net/Articles/326747/ << Some people should be killed for there naming TXT for something other than a text document. | Sep 18 14:29 |
| fewa | oiaohm, agreed lol | Sep 18 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Open source world has a few non-profits. | Sep 18 14:30 |
| fewa | SPI | Sep 18 14:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Birth Listed as of 10 Biggest Moments in IT History (Jack Wallen) http://bit.ly/z7pgz no #gnu ? | Sep 18 14:30 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another #Ringleader of #Phorm #Worm Quits http://bit.ly/3E6hFd | Sep 18 14:33 | |
| zlg | a list compiled by someone with little knowledge of the real IT biggest moments. | Sep 18 14:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MichaelRobertson Exposes #EMI Thugs http://techdirt.com/articles/20090916/1907106215.shtml | Sep 18 14:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EFF Responds to Intellectual Monopolies Propaganda at Schools http://bit.ly/dGh7b | Sep 18 14:35 | |
| oiaohm | Like the first programmer zlg | Sep 18 14:35 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace That a lot of IT people cannot even name. | Sep 18 14:36 |
| fewa | hmm libQtWebKit.so.4 => not found | Sep 18 14:36 |
| fewa | and i have | Sep 18 14:36 |
| fewa | /usr/lib/libQtWebKit.so.4.5.0 | Sep 18 14:36 |
| fewa | does that mean i need to make a symbolic link? | Sep 18 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Sep 18 14:36 |
| oiaohm | try ldconfig first | Sep 18 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Depends on the ld.so if you need the link. | Sep 18 14:37 |
| fewa | ldconfig didnt work | Sep 18 14:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SmashingPumpkins Follows #Radiohead and Rejects Old #BusinessModels http://bit.ly/23Zk6Z http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0431356 ... | Sep 18 14:37 | |
| oiaohm | Add link | Sep 18 14:37 |
| fewa | rmm its there | Sep 18 14:37 |
| fewa | guess i need to link to have it in the working dir? | Sep 18 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Ok not a 32 bit program on a 64 it system. | Sep 18 14:38 |
| fewa | ahhh | Sep 18 14:38 |
| fewa | prob | Sep 18 14:38 |
| fewa | ahh yes | Sep 18 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Since the lib directory is in a different place. | Sep 18 14:38 |
| fewa | /usr/lib32 | Sep 18 14:38 |
| fewa | thats where it is looking | Sep 18 14:38 |
| fewa | dman when is multi-arch coming | Sep 18 14:39 |
| fewa | so i can just apt-get -a i386 | Sep 18 14:40 |
| fewa | or something like that | Sep 18 14:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Lies on Behalf of Its Real Clients (Moguls, Not Artists) http://techdirt.com/articles/20090916/1829226214.shtml | Sep 18 14:40 | |
| Diablo-D3 | mafiaa hah | Sep 18 14:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Publicly-funded Data is Forced to Go Public by #Wikileaks http://bit.ly/Wrlf6 | Sep 18 14:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Carries on Trashing the #USPTO for Selfish Gain http://techdirt.com/articles/20090914/0259236178.shtml #patent #trash #abolition | Sep 18 14:44 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Was Sued for Patent Violation by #Paltalk http://bit.ly/w55qY | Sep 18 14:45 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple Messes up #iPhones , Nearly #Bricks Some http://bit.ly/11RoMw | Sep 18 14:47 | |
| *wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...") | Sep 18 14:47 | |
| oiaohm | So ibms comp for the most stupid patent regested is still going on. | Sep 18 14:48 |
| fewa | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityEdgyIdeas/Multiarch | Sep 18 14:49 |
| fewa | they have absolutely no awareness of the multi-arch specification | Sep 18 14:49 |
| fewa | and seen to have no interest in fallowing it | Sep 18 14:49 |
| fewa | perhaps | Sep 18 14:50 |
| fewa | making up their own directories | Sep 18 14:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Gets It way in Seattle, Washington by Taking More Control of #ODF from #OASIS http://bit.ly/bS5Yo | Sep 18 14:50 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Some Previews of #OpenOffice.org 3.2 http://bit.ly/W2tBa | Sep 18 14:50 | |
| fewa | ahh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiarchSpec | Sep 18 14:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KOffice and #ODF Are Spreading to Telephones http://lwn.net/Articles/353262/ http://bit.ly/3zrVNE | Sep 18 14:51 | |
| fewa | pointed from http://wiki.debian.org/multiarch | Sep 18 14:52 |
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| zlg | ahh asimov | Sep 18 14:54 |
| oiaohm | http://lackof.org/taggart/hacking/multiarch/ << It is a kind of scary plan fewa | Sep 18 14:58 |
| fewa | the coreutils have already implamented it | Sep 18 15:00 |
| fewa | oiaohm, how scary? | Sep 18 15:00 |
| fewa | and yeah i have read that | Sep 18 15:00 |
| fewa | that last ubuntu place is the one that is up to date | Sep 18 15:01 |
| oiaohm | One binary directory still. | Sep 18 15:02 |
| fewa | still the /bin /usr/bin difference | Sep 18 15:03 |
| fewa | i think that is obsolete | Sep 18 15:03 |
| fewa | i was thinking you could synlink /usr to / | Sep 18 15:03 |
| oiaohm | No one /bin and /usr/bin ... for all archs. | Sep 18 15:03 |
| fewa | if you read the FHS its about having a small boot disk | Sep 18 15:04 |
| fewa | but thats just not how systems boot these days | Sep 18 15:04 |
| fewa | they have a sall boot disk--a initrd | Sep 18 15:04 |
| oiaohm | Now you would not want to replace something critical from the wrong arch. | Sep 18 15:04 |
| fewa | initramfs | Sep 18 15:04 |
| fewa | oiaohm, yep | Sep 18 15:04 |
| oiaohm | I can see that coming. | Sep 18 15:04 |
| oiaohm | Really they should have split the binary directories and been done with it. | Sep 18 15:05 |
| fewa | so therefore /usr --> / | Sep 18 15:05 |
| oiaohm | simplest would have been each arch with its own prefix. | Sep 18 15:06 |
| oiaohm | Bit like usr but archs. | Sep 18 15:06 |
| fewa | sometimes people would want multiple version o same binaries | Sep 18 15:06 |
| oiaohm | Sometimes they need to. | Sep 18 15:07 |
| fewa | and reading this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiarchSpec it seems that it could be possible | Sep 18 15:07 |
| oiaohm | For testing reason. | Sep 18 15:07 |
| fewa | same program name | Sep 18 15:07 |
| fewa | not binaries | Sep 18 15:07 |
| fewa | yeah with multiple folder then you can set precedence with how you set up your path | Sep 18 15:07 |
| fewa | idk, still seems a little wierd | Sep 18 15:08 |
| fewa | the screwing up sys files can be done with the same priority: essential directives that prevent you from uninstalling | Sep 18 15:08 |
| fewa | so to change arch of essential you have to change the arch of all essential | Sep 18 15:08 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: are you on arch yet? | Sep 18 15:10 |
| schestowitz | You expressed an intent | Sep 18 15:10 |
| trmanco | not yet | Sep 18 15:10 |
| oiaohm | Next problem is how big of a install could this make fewa | Sep 18 15:10 |
| fewa | not any bigger at all | Sep 18 15:10 |
| oiaohm | We might have something that needs a blueray live cd fewa | Sep 18 15:10 |
| fewa | thats the point | Sep 18 15:10 |
| fewa | you dont have to use it | Sep 18 15:10 |
| oiaohm | Ie all archs on 1 live disk. | Sep 18 15:11 |
| fewa | you can install a single-arch system | Sep 18 15:11 |
| fewa | and most amd64 comps will actually use _less_ space | Sep 18 15:11 |
| oiaohm | I was talking for worst case. | Sep 18 15:11 |
| fewa | cause they get around the inefficiencies of the lib32 package mess | Sep 18 15:11 |
| oiaohm | Ie someone insane enough to install them all. | Sep 18 15:11 |
| fewa | also in reality you can just get the amd64 cd | Sep 18 15:11 |
| fewa | and then the i386 cd | Sep 18 15:11 |
| fewa | but yeah that would be crazy | Sep 18 15:12 |
| oiaohm | Linux world crazy happens. | Sep 18 15:12 |
| fewa | but you cant use the system like that | Sep 18 15:12 |
| oiaohm | qemu can emulate all the cpu types. | Sep 18 15:12 |
| fewa | because of the flat binary directory | Sep 18 15:12 |
| oiaohm | The annoying thing is there is a valid reason for multiable binaries. | Sep 18 15:13 |
| oiaohm | Particular loads run faster with 32 bit binarys than 64 and vice verser. | Sep 18 15:13 |
| oiaohm | So at times items like apache might be worth having 2. | Sep 18 15:14 |
| fewa | well | Sep 18 15:15 |
| fewa | it wouldn't be that hard to add | Sep 18 15:15 |
| fewa | and then add to your $PATH | Sep 18 15:16 |
| fewa | someone could patch it and add it as a config option | Sep 18 15:16 |
| fewa | with a little helper script to organize existing /usr/bin by arch | Sep 18 15:16 |
| oiaohm | I think it single /etc and single bin | Sep 18 15:16 |
| fewa | other question is where to put thse bin dirs | Sep 18 15:16 |
| fewa | but yeah | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | and single /etc seems only sane way | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | otherwise you would just chroot or VPS, etc | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | its about a single system | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | not many | Sep 18 15:17 |
| oiaohm | As long as you don't have arch depend configs in there. | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | like what? | Sep 18 15:17 |
| oiaohm | That cause when swaping arch version of something to screw up. | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | the idea is not to have 2 apaches | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | or things like that | Sep 18 15:17 |
| fewa | yeah those problems will get worked out | Sep 18 15:18 |
| oiaohm | Like something listing plugins that are only installed in 1 arch. | Sep 18 15:18 |
| fewa | a single /etc makes sense though | Sep 18 15:18 |
| fewa | instead of always defining new namespaces in Linux we fix the software | Sep 18 15:18 |
| fewa | to do things right | Sep 18 15:18 |
| oiaohm | Were able yes. | Sep 18 15:18 |
| oiaohm | But room has to be left for the times were its not wise to be single. | Sep 18 15:18 |
| fewa | well yes | Sep 18 15:18 |
| fewa | and compat is remained for packages that fit the old assumptions | Sep 18 15:19 |
| oiaohm | asound config could be interesting. | Sep 18 15:19 |
| fewa | as long as they are non system files | Sep 18 15:19 |
| fewa | oiaohm, its works with the status quo | Sep 18 15:19 |
| fewa | which is not nearly as good as the multiarch spec | Sep 18 15:19 |
| fewa | so i dont think it will be a prob | Sep 18 15:19 |
| oiaohm | I was thinking of config files that effect libs. | Sep 18 15:19 |
| oiaohm | To be correct worst one would be gstreamer. | Sep 18 15:20 |
| fewa | i dont really understand how qemu emulates for binaries | Sep 18 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Really simply. | Sep 18 15:20 |
| fewa | so it emulates and translates system calls into native arch ones? | Sep 18 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Linux system calls are a constant. | Sep 18 15:20 |
| fewa | runs target arch libraries | Sep 18 15:20 |
| fewa | aha | Sep 18 15:20 |
| fewa | well then thats really cool | Sep 18 15:20 |
| twitter1 | heh, Zune Fail. Steve Ballmer will squirt 30 seconds of ads at you as you start up your games http://games.slashdot.org/story/09/09/18/0430257/Ad-Viewing-Required-For-Free-Zune-HD-Games | Sep 18 15:20 |
| oiaohm | yes Linux does have one stable binary abi. | Sep 18 15:21 |
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| oiaohm | Just were no one looks. | Sep 18 15:21 |
| fewa | and stability across archs | Sep 18 15:21 |
| fewa | in term of feature parity | Sep 18 15:21 |
| fewa | (where approiate) | Sep 18 15:22 |
| fewa | nono | Sep 18 15:22 |
| fewa | not feature parity | Sep 18 15:22 |
| fewa | well anyways, i guess POSIX created that | Sep 18 15:22 |
| oiaohm | syscall of Linux don't change with arch. | Sep 18 15:22 |
| fewa | that calls are the same across archs | Sep 18 15:22 |
| fewa | all in C | Sep 18 15:22 |
| oiaohm | Only platform reporting has to be fudged. | Sep 18 15:23 |
| fewa | like uname? | Sep 18 15:23 |
| fewa | that sort of thin | Sep 18 15:23 |
| oiaohm | Yep some applications take a hissy fit when they ask what is the cpu here and get answered x86 instead of ppc something. | Sep 18 15:23 |
| twitter1 | Slashdot covers hospital spyware without mentioning Windows. http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/18/0011218/Spyware-Prank-Exposes-Hospital-Medical-Records | Sep 18 15:24 |
| oiaohm | Basically the functions uname talk to have to lie fewa and some points in /proc | Sep 18 15:24 |
| fewa | i know archset does that | Sep 18 15:25 |
| fewa | or whatever the command is | Sep 18 15:25 |
| fewa | to set uname -m the i686 on amd64 | Sep 18 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Yes Linux has a way to fudge it. | Sep 18 15:26 |
| *twitter1 has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 18 15:27 | |
| oiaohm | Biggest head ache is byteorder conversions fewa | Sep 18 15:28 |
| fewa | yeah when will everything goes to little endian :P | Sep 18 15:29 |
| oiaohm | but its not that bad. | Sep 18 15:29 |
| fewa | cause there cant be any real difference technically between them | Sep 18 15:29 |
| fewa | besides their incompatibilities | Sep 18 15:30 |
| oiaohm | There are 3 | Sep 18 15:30 |
| fewa | or is there? | Sep 18 15:30 |
| oiaohm | big endian little endian and sun evil create half way between both. | Sep 18 15:30 |
| oiaohm | So conversion cost is equal no matter what. | Sep 18 15:30 |
| fewa | but thats their incompatibilities | Sep 18 15:30 |
| fewa | would a pure little endian world be any differn't from a pure big endian world? | Sep 18 15:31 |
| oiaohm | But then there are processes like arm that can switch between big endian and little endian on fly. | Sep 18 15:31 |
| fewa | ie, is there a reason again agreeing and sticking to one | Sep 18 15:31 |
| fewa | yeah | Sep 18 15:31 |
| zlg | what it's the endian of the world ?? | Sep 18 15:31 |
| fewa | kinda crazy | Sep 18 15:31 |
| fewa | how do you program that stuff | Sep 18 15:32 |
| fewa | zlg, jesus comes back | Sep 18 15:32 |
| oiaohm | big-endian is network protocals fewa | Sep 18 15:33 |
| fewa | ahh | Sep 18 15:33 |
| fewa | damn | Sep 18 15:33 |
| oiaohm | So its a bit hard to get rid of. | Sep 18 15:33 |
| oiaohm | then we have little endian in filesystems. | Sep 18 15:33 |
| oiaohm | Arm took the only sane performance option out support both. | Sep 18 15:34 |
| fewa | well i guess it will just be like language grammer | Sep 18 15:34 |
| fewa | we will just have to get use to it | Sep 18 15:34 |
| fewa | SVO VSO OSV, etc | Sep 18 15:34 |
| oiaohm | Yet arm processes cannot natively handle suns half and half. | Sep 18 15:34 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Verb_Object | Sep 18 15:34 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz0hjLbgVIU&feature=PlayList&p=A3BD2524FE99BD4D&index=9 | Sep 18 15:35 |
| fewa | or more specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order | Sep 18 15:36 |
| oiaohm | To be correct arm can to half and half at 32 bit just not there 64 bit cpu for 64 bit. | Sep 18 15:36 |
| fewa | what about at the byte level | Sep 18 15:37 |
| fewa | endianness of the bits? | Sep 18 15:37 |
| oiaohm | No such thing. | Sep 18 15:37 |
| oiaohm | endianness is at 8 wide blocks. | Sep 18 15:38 |
| fewa | is 1000 8 or 1 | Sep 18 15:38 |
| fewa | in english it is 8 | Sep 18 15:38 |
| fewa | but on x86 it is 1 | Sep 18 15:38 |
| oiaohm | Reason for utf-8 being used by Unix's. | Sep 18 15:38 |
| oiaohm | Its not effected by the endianness problem. | Sep 18 15:38 |
| oiaohm | You need at least 2 bytes to be effected. | Sep 18 15:39 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 18 15:39 | |
| fewa | endianness of the byte has just been delt with | Sep 18 15:39 |
| fewa | but it is an issue | Sep 18 15:39 |
| oiaohm | The order a byte is writen was worked out a long time ago. | Sep 18 15:40 |
| fewa | yeah | Sep 18 15:40 |
| oiaohm | And everyone did it basically the same. | Sep 18 15:40 |
| fewa | as big endian | Sep 18 15:40 |
| fewa | right | Sep 18 15:40 |
| fewa | ? | Sep 18 15:40 |
| fewa | as in arabic numberals | Sep 18 15:40 |
| oiaohm | I would have to look up serial. | Sep 18 15:40 |
| oiaohm | I Think its like little endian. | Sep 18 15:41 |
| oiaohm | Big endian suits routing problems. | Sep 18 15:41 |
| fewa | cause x86 is little endian on the byte level | Sep 18 15:41 |
| fewa | and bit level | Sep 18 15:41 |
| fewa | why this was so confusing the first time i read it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Virtual_address_space_details | Sep 18 15:42 |
| oiaohm | All are basicaly little endian at byte level. | Sep 18 15:43 |
| fewa | wait | Sep 18 15:43 |
| fewa | is F0 16 or 249 | Sep 18 15:44 |
| oiaohm | 249 | Sep 18 15:45 |
| oiaohm | 0F is 16 | Sep 18 15:45 |
| fewa | thats big-endian | Sep 18 15:45 |
| fewa | u see | Sep 18 15:45 |
| oiaohm | Hex is writen that way. | Sep 18 15:45 |
| fewa | if it was little-endian it would be 16 | Sep 18 15:45 |
| fewa | oh ok | Sep 18 15:45 |
| schestowitz | Too weird to be believed: a new planet in the solar system? - Bye Bye Planet Pluto - BBC science < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TWpYkMj0I&NR=1 > | Sep 18 15:45 |
| fewa | as in decimals | Sep 18 15:45 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Sep 18 15:46 |
| fewa | and binary, oct, etc | Sep 18 15:46 |
| oiaohm | serial tells you the hardware level. | Sep 18 15:46 |
| oiaohm | yes really confusing. | Sep 18 15:46 |
| MinceR | 0F is 15, not 16 | Sep 18 15:46 |
| fewa | understanding endianness is definetely confusing | Sep 18 15:46 |
| oiaohm | Its been mixed up all over the place form the estart. | Sep 18 15:46 |
| fewa | MinceR, depends | Sep 18 15:46 |
| fewa | but yeah generally | Sep 18 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Depends if you have 0 | Sep 18 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Yes I have done nasty systems were you start from 1 not 0 | Sep 18 15:47 |
| fewa | because you start counting at 0 | Sep 18 15:47 |
| fewa | geeze | Sep 18 15:47 |
| fewa | I had a big arguement with a laymen once | Sep 18 15:47 |
| fewa | he was trying to say that the year number were one off | Sep 18 15:47 |
| fewa | and that 2000 was the 2001th year | Sep 18 15:48 |
| oiaohm | Its out by more than that. | Sep 18 15:48 |
| fewa | I had to describe the whole differences of distances | Sep 18 15:48 |
| fewa | oiaohm, irrespective of history | Sep 18 15:48 |
| fewa | just of when you start counting | Sep 18 15:48 |
| fewa | he assumed you had to start at 1 | Sep 18 15:48 |
| fewa | and I had to intricately explain how you can start at 0 | Sep 18 15:49 |
| oiaohm | Just like assuming you have to start at 0 | Sep 18 15:49 |
| fewa | where 1 marks the end of the first year | Sep 18 15:49 |
| oiaohm | You could start somewhere - | Sep 18 15:49 |
| fewa | if you start at 1 you are looking at which milstone you are heading to | Sep 18 15:49 |
| oiaohm | That is a nasty signed number. | Sep 18 15:49 |
| fewa | and if you start at 0 you are looking at which milestone you last hit | Sep 18 15:49 |
| MinceR | there was no year 0 :> | Sep 18 15:50 |
| fewa | oiaohm, how does a system that starts at 1 specify 0 or binary fractions? | Sep 18 15:50 |
| MinceR | 1 BCE was followed by 1 CE | Sep 18 15:50 |
| oiaohm | You don't fewa | Sep 18 15:50 |
| fewa | MinceR, yeah | Sep 18 15:51 |
| zlg | There was between AD and BC. | Sep 18 15:51 |
| fewa | nutso counting | Sep 18 15:51 |
| oiaohm | Unless you want to have major head aches fewa | Sep 18 15:51 |
| fewa | I guess that was before they invented the number 0 | Sep 18 15:51 |
| fewa | that was actually a big step in mathamatics | Sep 18 15:51 |
| oiaohm | System start up counters. | Sep 18 15:52 |
| oiaohm | You don't need 0 | Sep 18 15:52 |
| fewa | but wait | Sep 18 15:52 |
| fewa | what was the "year of our lord" | Sep 18 15:52 |
| zlg | It was, and there is argument that 0 is not a number, it's simply an absense | Sep 18 15:52 |
| fewa | you cant go from 1 bc to 1 ad | Sep 18 15:52 |
| fewa | just doesn't make any sense | Sep 18 15:52 |
| oiaohm | Why not | Sep 18 15:52 |
| MinceR | i'd rather just use signs | Sep 18 15:52 |
| oiaohm | The way history is screwed up they could be the same year fewa | Sep 18 15:53 |
| MinceR | 1 CE -> 1; 1 BCE -> 0 | Sep 18 15:53 |
| oiaohm | Even worse overlaped | Sep 18 15:53 |
| fewa | becuase either 1 bc is either not a year before, or 1 ad is not a full year after | Sep 18 15:53 |
| MinceR | afaik that's the way year calculations are done anyway | Sep 18 15:53 |
| fewa | it would mean that they changed counting at that point | Sep 18 15:53 |
| oiaohm | So 1 bc is like 10 years after 1 ad | Sep 18 15:53 |
| fewa | (i know that these numbering where made after the fact) | Sep 18 15:53 |
| MinceR | :) | Sep 18 15:53 |
| MinceR | (2 BCE == -1) | Sep 18 15:53 |
| oiaohm | Yes you don't want be trying to date anything around 1 bc or 1ad | Sep 18 15:54 |
| fewa | they actually can count accurately in that ttime | Sep 18 15:54 |
| fewa | cause they have the roman year | Sep 18 15:54 |
| oiaohm | We screwed the calculations up so badly then. | Sep 18 15:54 |
| fewa | AUC | Sep 18 15:54 |
| fewa | ab urbe condita | Sep 18 15:54 |
| fewa | "from the founding of the City (Rome)" | Sep 18 15:55 |
| oiaohm | Basically you want to stay sane. | Sep 18 15:55 |
| fewa | which like "the year of our lord" is totally bogus | Sep 18 15:55 |
| zlg | The first year is 1AD, was the first year of the julian calander, during that year you would not call it year zero, but year 1. | Sep 18 15:55 |
| fewa | but once they started counting they did so accurately | Sep 18 15:55 |
| zlg | The first year, | Sep 18 15:55 |
| oiaohm | Not really fewa | Sep 18 15:55 |
| fewa | so there has to be some sanity in the way the 1bc--> 1ad converged with the AUC numbers | Sep 18 15:55 |
| oiaohm | The calender was not the right lenght. | Sep 18 15:56 |
| fewa | oiaohm, can they not count years | Sep 18 15:56 |
| fewa | counting years is a pretty easy thing to do | Sep 18 15:56 |
| oiaohm | So it screwed to hell. | Sep 18 15:56 |
| oiaohm | Tell the romans that. | Sep 18 15:56 |
| fewa | unlike figuring out a calender that doesnt scew | Sep 18 15:56 |
| oiaohm | They did not have there year the right lenght. | Sep 18 15:56 |
| fewa | which they were pretty close to | Sep 18 15:56 |
| oiaohm | So we started with a stuff up. | Sep 18 15:57 |
| fewa | oiaohm, it was much better than the jews | Sep 18 15:57 |
| MinceR | catching the same point of the year doesn't seem trivial | Sep 18 15:57 |
| fewa | that just added a month whenever they felt like it | Sep 18 15:57 |
| oiaohm | Best around 1ad and 1bc go use the china calender. | Sep 18 15:57 |
| fewa | but knowing the number of years is | Sep 18 15:57 |
| oiaohm | At least it was right. | Sep 18 15:57 |
| fewa | you dont have to know the point | Sep 18 15:57 |
| fewa | just the number of winters | Sep 18 15:57 |
| zlg | troubleis a year is not an even number of day slong. | Sep 18 15:57 |
| fewa | thats fairily simple | Sep 18 15:57 |
| oiaohm | Romans worked out they had a problem | Sep 18 15:58 |
| oiaohm | When they had winter in summer. | Sep 18 15:58 |
| oiaohm | And summer in winter. | Sep 18 15:58 |
| fewa | lol | Sep 18 15:58 |
| fewa | yeah they had that with easter too | Sep 18 15:58 |
| fewa | in the 1500s | Sep 18 15:58 |
| fewa | when they did the gregorian reforms | Sep 18 15:58 |
| oiaohm | And it was no some funny weather event. | Sep 18 15:58 |
| fewa | but it was only off by 15 days | Sep 18 15:58 |
| oiaohm | And a year. | Sep 18 15:58 |
| fewa | no, jsut 15 days | Sep 18 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Before that they had skiped a few years to try to correct problem. | Sep 18 15:59 |
| fewa | 15 diff from julian | Sep 18 15:59 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar | Sep 18 15:59 |
| oiaohm | In the julian | Sep 18 15:59 |
| fewa | great read btw | Sep 18 15:59 |
| fewa | wait | Sep 18 15:59 |
| fewa | yeah the adoption section | Sep 18 16:00 |
| fewa | about sweden and the mess there | Sep 18 16:00 |
| fewa | and the origin of the tax day in the UK | Sep 18 16:01 |
| fewa | ...anyways... | Sep 18 16:02 |
| oiaohm | Note we have also drifted out of align ment with the sun | Sep 18 16:03 |
| oiaohm | We should have done a correction year 2000 | Sep 18 16:03 |
| fewa | well thats what the gregorian calender was about | Sep 18 16:03 |
| fewa | we did | Sep 18 16:03 |
| fewa | we didn't have a leap day in 2000 | Sep 18 16:04 |
| fewa | according to the gregorian rules | Sep 18 16:04 |
| zlg | no the y2k error swallowed it up | Sep 18 16:04 |
| fewa | I think the leap seconds handles that | Sep 18 16:05 |
| fewa | wait, that diff | Sep 18 16:05 |
| fewa | diferent rotation | Sep 18 16:05 |
| oiaohm | Lot of leaping crud | Sep 18 16:05 |
| fewa | anyways the correction in 2000 was the gregorian rule | Sep 18 16:05 |
| fewa | to skip the leap day | Sep 18 16:05 |
| oiaohm | china make it so simple align every year of the solar events. | Sep 18 16:06 |
| fewa | even under julian it took 1000 years to get off by 14 days | Sep 18 16:06 |
| fewa | and gregorian basically fixes that completely | Sep 18 16:06 |
| fewa | oiaohm, no thats what the jewish calendar did and its broken | Sep 18 16:06 |
| fewa | well i guess | Sep 18 16:06 |
| fewa | but doesn't allow non-astronmers to predict the seasons | Sep 18 16:07 |
| oiaohm | jewish calender was star aligned. | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | which a solar calendar like julian or gregorian allows | Sep 18 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Not solar. | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | oiaohm, no jewish was lunar | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | with added months from time to time | Sep 18 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Ok just as bad. | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | based on decree | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | it was idiotic | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | like the egyptian one | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | or the muslim one which is still in use | Sep 18 16:07 |
| fewa | the muslim one isn't even years | Sep 18 16:08 |
| oiaohm | china and aztecs had it right. | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | its exactly 12 months | Sep 18 16:08 |
| zlg | I think it all should go decimal get rid of this crazy base 12 business. | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | so the muslim years are shorter | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | and you cant just add or subtract muslim years | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | you have to do really complicated equations | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | or look it up on a chary | Sep 18 16:08 |
| oiaohm | The solar ones even adjust for earth speed changes. | Sep 18 16:08 |
| oiaohm | Without having to do fancy leep stuff events. | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | so muslim years are not even years | Sep 18 16:08 |
| fewa | they are just moons * 12 | Sep 18 16:09 |
| fewa | oiaohm, you have to have some sort of leap days | Sep 18 16:09 |
| fewa | I mean its wierd that ours are in febuary | Sep 18 16:09 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Sep 18 16:09 |
| fewa | thats because march was the start of the calendar back in roman days | Sep 18 16:10 |
| fewa | also they use to just add and subtract days from months to honor people | Sep 18 16:10 |
| oiaohm | You think years have to be measured in full days. | Sep 18 16:10 |
| fewa | like july for julius added a day when they named it after him | Sep 18 16:10 |
| fewa | oiaohm, they cant | Sep 18 16:10 |
| oiaohm | Exactly | Sep 18 16:10 |
| fewa | as its 265.25something | Sep 18 16:11 |
| oiaohm | So they measued by time of year. | Sep 18 16:11 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but thats the only way to write it down well | Sep 18 16:11 |
| oiaohm | and was not bothered by days. | Sep 18 16:11 |
| zlg | earth's rotation and our orbit around the sun are not in sync, | Sep 18 16:11 |
| fewa | I mean i see the mathimatical purity of having all years the same lenth | Sep 18 16:11 |
| oiaohm | Ie so many days into X time of year. | Sep 18 16:11 |
| zlg | a year is not an even number of days, | Sep 18 16:11 |
| fewa | but have +/- 1 day is just easier | Sep 18 16:11 |
| oiaohm | When the solar event happens count again. | Sep 18 16:11 |
| oiaohm | So never out. | Sep 18 16:12 |
| fewa | otherwise there are days that are in two differnt years | Sep 18 16:12 |
| fewa | and you would have to pay at differnt times of the day your tax | Sep 18 16:12 |
| fewa | and etc etc | Sep 18 16:12 |
| oiaohm | Note normally 4 parts of year. | Sep 18 16:12 |
| fewa | each year tax wouldnt be due at midnight, but a differnt time of day | Sep 18 16:12 |
| oiaohm | So basically 4 supper months that lined up with solar events. | Sep 18 16:12 |
| fewa | it just doesn't work with the demands of people | Sep 18 16:12 |
| oiaohm | Tax due simply on a solar event. | Sep 18 16:12 |
| fewa | so you round it off to the nearest day and just call it done | Sep 18 16:13 |
| zlg | best is VMS EPOCH time, just number of seconds that have past since a specific start time. (in GMT) | Sep 18 16:13 |
| oiaohm | Ok just after a solar event. | Sep 18 16:13 |
| fewa | and with great rules of gregorian nature you dont have to call you local astronomer | Sep 18 16:13 |
| fewa | (although this is not needed anymore cause we can predict these things so well) | Sep 18 16:13 |
| oiaohm | But it drifts. | Sep 18 16:13 |
| fewa | and write them in tables | Sep 18 16:13 |
| fewa | and when it drifts you adjust by a day | Sep 18 16:13 |
| zlg | what solar events occur frequently and periodically ? | Sep 18 16:13 |
| fewa | but the gregorian wont drift off a day for another 10000 years | Sep 18 16:14 |
| fewa | so its reall y just fine | Sep 18 16:14 |
| fewa | the julian waas only 1 day/150 yr or so | Sep 18 16:14 |
| *wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 16:14 | |
| fewa | so enough that when it was drafted people didnt realize | Sep 18 16:14 |
| oiaohm | The two times of year when the day is equal lenth zlg | Sep 18 16:14 |
| fewa | and the gregorian actually is retroactive to the start of the julian | Sep 18 16:14 |
| oiaohm | You can build objects to detect that zlg | Sep 18 16:14 |
| oiaohm | And the longest and shortest day. | Sep 18 16:15 |
| fewa | or wait, i think some cristian event around 200 AD or something | Sep 18 16:15 |
| oiaohm | Gives you 4 nice and simple points to detect zlg | Sep 18 16:15 |
| fewa | oiaohm, you cant decide things every year | Sep 18 16:15 |
| zlg | yes, but with an accuracy of +- 24 hours, | Sep 18 16:15 |
| fewa | people needs these things to be predictable | Sep 18 16:15 |
| fewa | decided in advanced | Sep 18 16:16 |
| fewa | thats what a calendar gives | Sep 18 16:16 |
| schestowitz | Ah!!1 Finally! " * new: on-the-fly spell checking thanks to Michel Ludwig. Highlights include e.g. spell checking in comments of source code or latex parts. Also, constructs like sch\"on work in latex." http://dhaumann.blogspot.com/2009/09/news-from-holy-kate-land.html | Sep 18 16:16 |
| zlg | the equinoxses do not occure the say day every year either. | Sep 18 16:16 |
| oiaohm | Only by our canlder they don't zlg | Sep 18 16:16 |
| oiaohm | due to drift. | Sep 18 16:16 |
| fewa | cool maybe ill try it in replacement to gedit which i use | Sep 18 16:17 |
| fewa | and really like | Sep 18 16:17 |
| oiaohm | Need for a plus 1 day was detected by the solar system and done automattically. It was also a automatic holiday. | Sep 18 16:19 |
| fewa | that would be cool | Sep 18 16:19 |
| fewa | if you add a day it has to be a holiday :P | Sep 18 16:19 |
| fewa | cause it really doesn't exist | Sep 18 16:19 |
| zlg | because we are in orbit with a quite large moon, our orbit around the sun is not circular, it's (to use a technical term) wobbily, so by any time measurement, the equinoxes do not occure the sime time during a "solar" year, | Sep 18 16:19 |
| oiaohm | Yep | Sep 18 16:19 |
| fewa | zlg, yeah that isn't taken in to account | Sep 18 16:20 |
| fewa | but could be | Sep 18 16:20 |
| oiaohm | It copes with drift. | Sep 18 16:20 |
| fewa | but i think gregorian works | Sep 18 16:20 |
| oiaohm | It does not drift out of alignment with solar year. | Sep 18 16:20 |
| fewa | dont see it being changed any time soon | Sep 18 16:20 |
| oiaohm | Before gregorian all non solar were drifting around all over the place. | Sep 18 16:21 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 18 16:22 | |
| fewa | and solar | Sep 18 16:22 |
| fewa | the julian | Sep 18 16:22 |
| fewa | but much slower than all the other calendars | Sep 18 16:22 |
| zlg | isnt the aztec calander renounded for being very accurate. | Sep 18 16:22 |
| fewa | its why everyone adopted the gregorian | Sep 18 16:22 |
| fewa | cause it was very accurate and already adoped by lots of people | Sep 18 16:23 |
| fewa | although the protestants boycotted it for a long time | Sep 18 16:23 |
| zlg | I bet the old school religos, earth the center of the universe people were not too keep on a calander that said we're just a little crumy mold covered rock on the outskirts of a massive galaxy | Sep 18 16:26 |
| fewa | well they at least got a system designed that was reliable | Sep 18 16:26 |
| zlg | exactly, | Sep 18 16:26 |
| zlg | zerobooz, it's not perfect but we can live with it | Sep 18 16:28 |
| zlg | *"" | Sep 18 16:28 |
| fewa | and its pretty good | Sep 18 16:29 |
| zlg | you can ofcourse measure time with any regular or periodic function, years, days, seconds are all simply arbitary numbers based on common experiences, time is also one of if not the most accurately measured and measurable parameter. (for some reason). | Sep 18 16:36 |
| fewa | yes but people work better when the numbers are reasonably rounded | Sep 18 16:50 |
| fewa | so that all these differnt cycles line up a little better | Sep 18 16:50 |
| fewa | thats why we have leap seconds, leap days, etc | Sep 18 16:50 |
| fewa | we gave up long ago on have the months fit with the moon | Sep 18 16:51 |
| fewa | and we also don't align the week to anything | Sep 18 16:51 |
| *wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...") | Sep 18 16:58 | |
| zlg | fewa exactly | Sep 18 17:15 |
| zlg | except the week probably originated from the 4 phases of the moon. | Sep 18 17:16 |
| zlg | might explain why monday and moodday sound so close. | Sep 18 17:18 |
| zlg | or thats how long god took to make everything. | Sep 18 17:19 |
| fewa | meh i guess | Sep 18 17:21 |
| fewa | never thought of it that way however | Sep 18 17:21 |
| fewa | cause there are alot of week that are not 7 days | Sep 18 17:21 |
| fewa | roman week was not 7 days | Sep 18 17:21 |
| fewa | lol http://www.google.com/search?q=week | Sep 18 17:21 |
| fewa | google decided it is emperical :P | Sep 18 17:22 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week 4-20 days | Sep 18 17:22 |
| zlg | well 4 days for a week would make better sense or 12 something that relates to 12 and 24 hour days. | Sep 18 17:22 |
| fewa | zlg, you are trying to astrologize it | Sep 18 17:23 |
| fewa | just shoving around numbers is intellectual masturbation | Sep 18 17:23 |
| fewa | but the 4 in 1 month thing makes some sense | Sep 18 17:23 |
| zlg | logisise it :) should be decemal allround, | Sep 18 17:23 |
| fewa | lol decimal system sucks | Sep 18 17:23 |
| fewa | computer have to be klugged to have decimal floating point | Sep 18 17:24 |
| zlg | hmm, thinking is intellectual masturbation, ok, so what's the alternative ? | Sep 18 17:24 |
| fewa | well | Sep 18 17:24 |
| fewa | no | Sep 18 17:24 |
| fewa | I just don't see the relevence of 12 or 24 | Sep 18 17:24 |
| fewa | just random numbers | Sep 18 17:24 |
| fewa | with no astronomy relevence | Sep 18 17:24 |
| fewa | the 4 in month does makes sense | Sep 18 17:25 |
| fewa | and we have 10 fingers and count that way | Sep 18 17:25 |
| zlg | they are prime numbers so certain other number work in well with them. like 4,8,24,32 and so on | Sep 18 17:25 |
| fewa | why should week be divisable by 12 or 24? | Sep 18 17:25 |
| zlg | yes 10 fingers and toes, so our time should be DECIMAL. | Sep 18 17:26 |
| zlg | Base 10 | Sep 18 17:26 |
| fewa | the sumerians did like the number 60 | Sep 18 17:26 |
| fewa | which is not that bad | Sep 18 17:27 |
| fewa | their second/minute/hour system has laster longer than almost anything else | Sep 18 17:27 |
| fewa | didnt even get successfully attacked by the metric decimal | Sep 18 17:28 |
| fewa | *decimal hysteria :P | Sep 18 17:28 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time | Sep 18 17:28 |
| fewa | thats the way the victorians talked | Sep 18 17:29 |
| fewa | anything that they precieved as improper was "hysteria" | Sep 18 17:29 |
| zlg | the french and chinese have been doing it for yonks. | Sep 18 17:30 |
| fewa | i dont think the french do it anymore | Sep 18 17:30 |
| fewa | but maybe | Sep 18 17:30 |
| zlg | I dont think there is any risk of a change anytime soon, | Sep 18 17:32 |
| trmanco | did I leave? | Sep 18 17:37 |
| fewa | trmanco, what do you mean? | Sep 18 17:38 |
| trmanco | did I leave the channel? | Sep 18 17:38 |
| fewa | i dont know, i universal conferance mode on | Sep 18 17:39 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Internet radio exec: don’t mention Linux! http://is.gd/3q0hL | Sep 18 17:43 | |
| zlg | harh | Sep 18 17:49 |
| zlg | harsh* | Sep 18 17:49 |
| fewa | zlg, well don't you have records | Sep 18 17:52 |
| zlg | there is nothing in my backlog that says you loged off trmanco | Sep 18 17:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Nestle/PowWow Water respond to complaint by astroturfing and legal threats - http://is.gd/3pDx4 - please forward | Sep 18 17:54 | |
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| trmanco | zlg: ok thanks | Sep 18 18:07 |
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| DaemonFC | hmmm, Demonoid is still down | Sep 18 18:08 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC the pirate with just one eye | Sep 18 18:09 |
| DaemonFC | Argh1 | Sep 18 18:09 |
| DaemonFC | errr | Sep 18 18:09 |
| fewa | ummm | Sep 18 18:09 |
| DaemonFC | Arrgghhhhhh!!!!! | Sep 18 18:09 |
| fewa | pirate with one eye is the stereotype | Sep 18 18:09 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Sep 18 18:09 |
| fewa | nvm | Sep 18 18:10 |
| _Hicham_ | and one leg | Sep 18 18:10 |
| fewa | http://imgur.com/upz16.jpg | Sep 18 18:11 |
| _Hicham_ | that is DaemonFC | Sep 18 18:12 |
| _Hicham_ | but he will get caught for sure | Sep 18 18:12 |
| _Hicham_ | but no, he is paid by microsoft | Sep 18 18:12 |
| _Hicham_ | he is doing publicity for them | Sep 18 18:12 |
| DaemonFC | how is that? | Sep 18 18:12 |
| _Hicham_ | aren't personal computers in the US scanned remotely ? | Sep 18 18:13 |
| DaemonFC | no | Sep 18 18:14 |
| DaemonFC | no more so than anywhere else | Sep 18 18:14 |
| _Hicham_ | why people get caught for sharing illegal bits ? | Sep 18 18:15 |
| DaemonFC | scanned by all the worms and shit looking for infectable hosts maybe | Sep 18 18:15 |
| _Hicham_ | no | Sep 18 18:15 |
| _Hicham_ | their contents are scanned | Sep 18 18:15 |
| DaemonFC | if you're in a bittorrent swarm then your IP address is listed as sharing bits of the file | Sep 18 18:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] HT @hildneyite Sega MegaDrive selling for more than XBox 360, yes really http://is.gd/3q3v3 | Sep 18 18:15 | |
| DaemonFC | it's not exactly anonymous | Sep 18 18:15 |
| DaemonFC | even Bram Cohen said that | Sep 18 18:15 |
| _Hicham_ | that is what i am saying | Sep 18 18:15 |
| _Hicham_ | but u may use something to hide ur ip | Sep 18 18:16 |
| _Hicham_ | like tor | Sep 18 18:16 |
| DaemonFC | Bittorrent over TOR is too slow to use | Sep 18 18:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] HT @hindleyite Sega MegaDrive selling for more than XBox 360, yes really http://is.gd/3q3v3 | Sep 18 18:16 | |
| DaemonFC | and abuses the network | Sep 18 18:16 |
| _Hicham_ | but it is more secure for people in the US | Sep 18 18:17 |
| _Hicham_ | here, Windows CDs are sold for $0.5 | Sep 18 18:17 |
| _Hicham_ | and Windows DVDs for $1 | Sep 18 18:17 |
| DaemonFC | Why do that when you can just download it? | Sep 18 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | because it is cheaper than downloading it | Sep 18 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | u won't have to wait | Sep 18 18:18 |
| DaemonFC | a DVD only takes like maybe 30 minutes to an hour to download | Sep 18 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | 30 minutes ? | Sep 18 18:19 |
| DaemonFC | depending on how many seeds there are or how fast the remote server is | Sep 18 18:19 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Sep 18 18:19 |
| DaemonFC | I almost never am limited by my bandwidth | Sep 18 18:19 |
| _Hicham_ | haha | Sep 18 18:19 |
| _Hicham_ | not always | Sep 18 18:19 |
| DaemonFC | that's assuming Comcast isn't having "a day" | Sep 18 18:19 |
| DaemonFC | but for the most part, I have enough | Sep 18 18:19 |
| _Hicham_ | and how much does that connection cost at Comcast? | Sep 18 18:21 |
| DaemonFC | $20 a month for the internet part of the bill | Sep 18 18:21 |
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| DaemonFC | heh, KTorrent on Windows :P | Sep 18 18:28 |
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| DaemonFC | may be the only KDE app on Windows that doesn't crash | Sep 18 18:29 |
| _Hicham_ | KDE have been ported to Windows long time ago | Sep 18 18:29 |
| _Hicham_ | I tested it then | Sep 18 18:29 |
| DaemonFC | still not very stable | Sep 18 18:30 |
| _Hicham_ | had basic stuff working | Sep 18 18:30 |
| _Hicham_ | like konqueror | Sep 18 18:30 |
| _Hicham_ | kate | Sep 18 18:30 |
| _Hicham_ | dolphin | Sep 18 18:30 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, most of it is pointless | Sep 18 18:30 |
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| _Hicham_ | theoretically, if KDE was relying 100%, it wouldn't be that hard to port it | Sep 18 18:31 |
| sebsebseb | hi | Sep 18 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | without the entire KDE environment to operate under | Sep 18 18:31 |
| _Hicham_ | hi sebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebsebseb | Sep 18 18:31 |
| _Hicham_ | qt is 100% cross platform | Sep 18 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Windows executable structure hasn't changed a lot since Windows 2000 anyway | Sep 18 18:31 |
| _Hicham_ | but kde uses some X Window Specific code | Sep 18 18:31 |
| sebsebseb | _Hicham_: hi | Sep 18 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | if you can get it working on Windows 2000, it probably runs on everything past that | Sep 18 18:32 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why Windows attracts developers | Sep 18 18:32 |
| _Hicham_ | stability | Sep 18 18:32 |
| _Hicham_ | stability of the ABI of course | Sep 18 18:32 |
| DaemonFC | a lot of the more common bugs people are tripping with old software relate to things like Aero | Sep 18 18:33 |
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| _Hicham_ | Aero is a big failure | Sep 18 18:35 |
| _Hicham_ | they tried to clone compiz | Sep 18 18:35 |
| _Hicham_ | but that was too complicated for them | Sep 18 18:36 |
| _Hicham_ | since it relies on OpenGL and X | Sep 18 18:36 |
| _Hicham_ | compiz is getting integrated into DE slowly | Sep 18 18:36 |
| _Hicham_ | kwin is having some fancy effects | Sep 18 18:37 |
| _Hicham_ | whereas metacity is having just basic ones, like shadow | Sep 18 18:37 |
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| DaemonFC | _Hicham_, The problem with Aero is that it also has to display legacy GDI+ applications that are totally unaware of the DWM compositor | Sep 18 18:39 |
| DaemonFC | it creates some potential backwards compatibility problems | Sep 18 18:39 |
| DaemonFC | and may have to shut down the compositor | Sep 18 18:39 |
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| MinceR | stability of the ABI is pointless and counterproductive | Sep 18 18:50 |
| MinceR | whoever disagrees should just stay with winblows and enjoy it | Sep 18 18:50 |
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| DaemonFC | ABI stability is important when software and drivers are all closed source and nobody knows if the company will even be around to revision them later | Sep 18 19:00 |
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| hicham_ | MinceR : how is ABI stability is pointless and counterproductive ? | Sep 18 19:01 |
| DaemonFC | in many cases, Linux has a compromise going | Sep 18 19:01 |
| DaemonFC | where the driver itself is open source, but the firmware isn't | Sep 18 19:01 |
| MinceR | hicham_: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/stable_api_nonsense.html | Sep 18 19:03 |
| MinceR | (the same text can be found in the kernel source, under Documentation/ ) | Sep 18 19:03 |
| MinceR | hmm... | Sep 18 19:03 |
| MinceR | i might be able to provide a gitweb link | Sep 18 19:03 |
| hicham_ | i know kroah | Sep 18 19:04 |
| hicham_ | and i ve seen that before | Sep 18 19:04 |
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| MinceR | then there was no point in you asking that question | Sep 18 19:04 |
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| MinceR | http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob_plain;f=Documentation/stable_api_nonsense.txt;hb=74fca6a42863ffacaf7ba6f1936a9f228950f657 | Sep 18 19:04 |
| MinceR | there you go | Sep 18 19:05 |
| hicham_ | kroah is working for Novell by the way | Sep 18 19:05 |
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| MinceR | that doesn't invalidate those points, by the way | Sep 18 19:06 |
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| schestowitz | This audiocast is a mess: http://www.twit.tv/floss3 | Sep 18 19:09 |
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| hicham_ | DaemonFC : u should test Gentoo | Sep 18 19:12 |
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| DaemonFC | these Comcast people are dumb as a bag of hammers | Sep 18 19:17 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : why r u logging in and out too much ? | Sep 18 19:18 |
| _Hicham_ | what is happening ? | Sep 18 19:18 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Well, I guess if my ISP ever figures it out or cares to tell me | Sep 18 19:18 |
| DaemonFC | I'll know why | Sep 18 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | Mayday mayday, we're losing Ryan..... | Sep 18 19:20 |
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| trmanco | lol | Sep 18 19:24 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz, If they keep this up, I'm going to ask for the cancellation department | Sep 18 19:25 |
| DaemonFC | there's just no other ISPs really | Sep 18 19:25 |
| DaemonFC | AT&T, but they are worse | Sep 18 19:26 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] windows developer on porting project to linux http://is.gd/3qaXi | Sep 18 19:31 | |
| DaemonFC | they're coming back out tomorrow | Sep 18 19:34 |
| DaemonFC | yay | Sep 18 19:34 |
| DaemonFC | oh crap | Sep 18 19:35 |
| DaemonFC | landlord just pulled up | Sep 18 19:35 |
| DaemonFC | I really hate that guy | Sep 18 19:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] why the press is incurably, structurally a firehose of effluent: the temptation of stories http://is.gd/3qbgU | Sep 18 19:35 | |
| DaemonFC | looks like he's here to talk to the neighbor, I'll be "in the shower" just in case | Sep 18 19:35 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1534089/student-designs-cardboard | Sep 18 19:40 |
| schestowitz | Heh. | Sep 18 19:40 |
| schestowitz | BTW, some exec just mailed. We happen to provide information that's useful to some. | Sep 18 19:40 |
| schestowitz | It can be excruciating doing what BN does--tons of personal attacks and libel against me and the site _all the time_. Others who do similar things report the same experience. At least it has a positive value to some. | Sep 18 19:41 |
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| schestowitz | Google CEO Skeptical About Charging For Online Content < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/18/google-ceo-skeptical-about-charging-for-online-content > | Sep 18 19:43 |
| amarsh04 | I felt a bit weird when a big hardware store called claiming I had ordered a solar hot water system (both houses I have lived in recently have already just replaced hot water systems) | Sep 18 19:45 |
| amarsh04 | If I was feeling too paranoid I would have asked the store to keep the fake order and get it investigated, but the details used were all in the white pages anyway | Sep 18 19:46 |
| schestowitz | They could have sent a cab to your house :-) | Sep 18 19:46 |
| amarsh04 | I wonder how often that kind of thing happens - someone claiming to be you orders something in your name? | Sep 18 19:46 |
| schestowitz | Or pizza | Sep 18 19:46 |
| schestowitz | Then you have a face-to-face inconvenient encounter | Sep 18 19:46 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: maybe you have foes | Sep 18 19:47 |
| amarsh04 | true, but I think my regular take away food places know me too well, and I don't block caller-id on outgoing calls | Sep 18 19:47 |
| schestowitz | [sarcasm] the "Microsoft fox" from Adelaide U / | Sep 18 19:47 |
| amarsh04 | yes, that can happen, or just someone trying to "yank my chain" to use an americanism | Sep 18 19:47 |
| schestowitz | Maybe some lady in luuuuuv wanting to buy you a boiler :-p | Sep 18 19:48 |
| amarsh04 | could be... these days I know more of the music staff and other departments due to a relative doing music at the moment | Sep 18 19:49 |
| amarsh04 | the odd more-highly-targeted spam can be surprising | Sep 18 19:50 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Sep 18 19:51 | |
| *schestowitz gives channel operator status to fewa | Sep 18 19:51 | |
| Glyn | Open Rights Group is meeting up with Mandelson on Monday | Sep 18 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | There's still hope for Fog computing. http://www.eucalyptus.com/press/09-09-2009 | Sep 18 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Hey, Glyn | Sep 18 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Moody? | Sep 18 19:54 |
| Glyn | Nah, Glyn Wintle | Sep 18 19:55 |
| schestowitz | Heh. | Sep 18 19:55 |
| schestowitz | ORG | Sep 18 19:55 |
| schestowitz | They have been quiet in the past year | Sep 18 19:55 |
| amarsh04 | come to think of it, amarsh04 would give myself away very clearly to anyone in it at Adelaide Uni, since that was my username | Sep 18 19:55 |
| schestowitz | Does ORG have a yacht like Geffen to take Mandelson on? :-) | Sep 18 19:55 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 18 19:56 | |
| *DaemonFC`` is now known as DaemonFC | Sep 18 19:56 | |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: there are more effective things people do for surveillance. The Web's JS jungle is the most harmful | Sep 18 19:57 |
| amarsh04 | proprietary interests are like the people who feel so insecure that they only travel in armoured vehicles with escorts | Sep 18 19:57 |
| MinceR | that's one of the things NoScript helps with | Sep 18 19:57 |
| amarsh04 | free software people are like those who walk unarmed, knowing that they have friends of like-minded people | Sep 18 19:57 |
| amarsh04 | I disable javascript as much as possible | Sep 18 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Web sites as programmes/probes | Sep 18 19:58 |
| Glyn | ORGs spent the last year on Phorm, Intercept Modernisation Programme, etc | Sep 18 19:59 |
| amarsh04 | and all those funny sites that adblock plus helps keep blocked - I forbid googleanalytics, hitbox and all those tracking sites | Sep 18 19:59 |
| schestowitz | 451 is getting chummy with Microsoft people. I bet Microsoft is among the funding sources of 451 group, which is why the group was scared to name investors to me. | Sep 18 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Strategies for creating business opportunities based on open source software < http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2009/09/18/strategies-for-creating-business-opportunities-based-on-open-source-software/ > | Sep 18 20:04 |
| schestowitz | ^more nonsense, IMHO | Sep 18 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Glyn: Phorm falls apart | Sep 18 20:04 |
| schestowitz | They have just lost their ex-BT boss | Sep 18 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Which leads to wondering if BT as their major client was collusion | Sep 18 20:04 |
| schestowitz | BT quit Phorm a few months back, sending Phorm shares plunging down | Sep 18 20:05 |
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| *amarsh04 wonders how .uk people put up with timed local phone calls in the POTS days | Sep 18 20:06 | |
| DaemonFC | same way I'm putting up with Comcast I suppose | Sep 18 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | I did manage to put together my own copy of VLC | Sep 18 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | it will stream to Justin.tv | Sep 18 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | so at least I managed to do something to get around the Flash mess | Sep 18 20:09 |
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| DaemonFC | pfft | Sep 18 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | Did you pass gas? | Sep 18 20:15 |
| DaemonFC` | sons of bitches at Comcast | Sep 18 20:15 |
| DaemonFC` | they keep telling me a different lie everytime I call them | Sep 18 20:16 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 18 20:16 | |
| *DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Sep 18 20:16 | |
| Glyn | schestowitz Yep, phorm dont like ORG all that much. :) | Sep 18 20:16 |
| DaemonFC | I think I'm going to go all out for a 2 TB hard disk and leave Windows 7 on one partition | Sep 18 20:16 |
| DaemonFC | it would cost the same to do that as get a TV tuner that doesn't depend on Windows drivers, considering I already have more copies of Windows than I even really need | Sep 18 20:17 |
| better to leave Windows 7 alone. | Sep 18 20:17 | |
| DaemonFC | if I have to leave a copy of Windows around, and I have everything from XP, to Vista, to 7, to Server 2003 through 2008 R2, I may as well | Sep 18 20:18 |
| you could bet a converter box and an analog tuner .... that combination looks good enough for most people. | Sep 18 20:18 | |
| cubezzz | pffft, pchdtv, forget about doze | Sep 18 20:18 |
| *DaemonFC` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 20:19 | |
| cubezzz | http://www.pchdtv.com/ | Sep 18 20:19 |
| DaemonFC` | well, the PCHD 5500 costs $99 and that's the card that's probably the most guaranteed to work with Linux with no fuss | Sep 18 20:19 |
| I don't know why people pay for cable TV. It's like paying to be spammed. | Sep 18 20:19 | |
| DaemonFC` | but that's the same price as just getting a massive hard drive and dual booting | Sep 18 20:20 |
| DaemonFC` | twitter, Cause it's a package deal | Sep 18 20:20 |
| BT878? That works well. | Sep 18 20:20 | |
| DaemonFC` | it would cost me more money to not have it | Sep 18 20:20 |
| cubezzz | twitter, you are right, that's why I'm on antenna | Sep 18 20:20 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 18 20:20 | |
| *DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Sep 18 20:20 | |
| cubezzz | I have a hauppage card in one of my boxes, it also works | Sep 18 20:20 |
| MinceR | my bt878 card fried :/ | Sep 18 20:20 |
| DaemonFC | that's why people keep their cable TV mainly | Sep 18 20:21 |
| cubezzz | you can get them on ebay very cheap | Sep 18 20:21 |
| MinceR | damn hauppauge garbage took the line inputs of my audigy2 platinum with itself, too | Sep 18 20:21 |
| MinceR | and they're making the same card with crappy cx88 chips now | Sep 18 20:21 |
| DaemonFC | the newspapers would love to be able to bundle the paper onto something you actually want | Sep 18 20:21 |
| DaemonFC | the only reason anyone still takes the paper is for grocery coupons | Sep 18 20:22 |
| something for cat litter? | Sep 18 20:22 | |
| DaemonFC | the rest of it is jsut dead trees that nobody reads | Sep 18 20:22 |
| DaemonFC | the paper here has lost so many subscribers that the grocery stores send their flyers out in the mail now | Sep 18 20:22 |
| cubezzz | one of our grocery stores has the coupons all on a big board when you walk in :) | Sep 18 20:23 |
| cubezzz | very convenient | Sep 18 20:23 |
| Everyone remember to have a good time tomorrow for Software Freedom Day. | Sep 18 20:23 | |
| *schestowitz takes day off-ish | Sep 18 20:29 | |
| put up a nice picture and link, please :) | Sep 18 20:30 | |
| schestowitz | Psion founder retires < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/18/david_potter_psion_retirement/ > | Sep 18 20:30 |
| LOL at the quote you found -> On one of their [HP] web pages they did something that will disturb many of the Microsoft Sheep out there, they referred to the Linux system they are offering as being user friendly | Sep 18 20:31 | |
| me thinks the sheep butcher will be throwing chairs | Sep 18 20:31 | |
| MinceR | sheep butcher? :) | Sep 18 20:31 |
| I was going to call him the shepherd, but that has too many positive connotations | Sep 18 20:32 | |
| M$ is more like a rustler | Sep 18 20:33 | |
| cubezzz | HP is actually doing something good? | Sep 18 20:33 |
| describing gnu/linux as user friendly, as it is. | Sep 18 20:33 | |
| schestowitz | Geometry patented. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqK5ZgDi1hE | Sep 18 20:33 |
| there's 30 years of "Unix is duh hard" PR out there. | Sep 18 20:34 | |
| Almost any distribution of gnu/linux is much easier to use than Windows. The easier to install versions are likewise easier than Windows. | Sep 18 20:35 | |
| MinceR | head tracking isn't even holography. | Sep 18 20:35 |
| it's geometry, using a computer! | Sep 18 20:35 | |
| surely that's more novel than pen and paper, calculators or string things? | Sep 18 20:36 | |
| no? | Sep 18 20:36 | |
| please abolish software patents... | Sep 18 20:36 | |
| fewa | in insanity | Sep 18 20:37 |
| fewa | software patents must be the rich and powerfull playing a little trick on the innovater class--those who actually bring the world forware | Sep 18 20:37 |
| fewa | trying to create a legal framework for economic veto power over innovation | Sep 18 20:38 |
| fewa | because if you have enough money | Sep 18 20:38 |
| fewa | and software patents are legal | Sep 18 20:38 |
| fewa | you can sue anyone out of business | Sep 18 20:38 |
| Glyn | When you talk to the guys from the patent office they don't think that way and they are the people the minister listens to. | Sep 18 20:39 |
| three cheers for democracy | Sep 18 20:40 | |
| fewa | and get rid of their disruptive technology | Sep 18 20:40 |
| fewa | its a way of outlawing disruptive technology | Sep 18 20:40 |
| fewa | when a economic power wishes to do so | Sep 18 20:40 |
| I think we need some regime change in the UK, starting with BB USA, it's called Biski. | Sep 18 20:40 | |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Sep 18 20:41 | |
| MinceR | we need a fundamental change in the human mindset | Sep 18 20:41 |
| *twitter calls down 435MB dist-upgrade on self and seeks to do it outside of X. bbl | Sep 18 20:41 | |
| *twitter (n=willhill@97-113-230-249.tukw.qwest.net) has left #boycottnovell | Sep 18 20:41 | |
| schestowitz | "Police in North Wales are road-testing a new offence: it's called "failing to make a police officer happy"." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/18/mcn_north_wales_police/ | Sep 18 20:41 |
| fewa | the EU parliament defined industry in the sense of patent law as "automated production of material goods"; | Sep 18 20:41 |
| fewa | http://eupat.ffii.org/papers/europarl0309/ | Sep 18 20:42 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.45.51) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 20:42 | |
| schestowitz | sebsebseb: it working well | Sep 18 20:42 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: hmm replying to the How's Konversation for you going pm, in here :D | Sep 18 20:43 |
| zoobab_ | fewa: there is no law which say such thing | Sep 18 20:43 |
| fewa | well i dont understand exactly how EU government works | Sep 18 20:43 |
| fewa | but doesn't a directive mean something? | Sep 18 20:43 |
| fewa | it was voted for | Sep 18 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | it means a lot | Sep 18 20:44 |
| Glyn | To be fair there is very little interest in going near software patent legislation in Europe at the moment, things have change quite a bit since then. | Sep 18 20:44 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: this KDE 4 version, I have messed up one channal a few times now and not being able to do auto complete, and I done something just now so I got a red line a bit like the spell check in Microsoft Word or Abiword hmm this has happended before | Sep 18 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | a EU directive must be respected by all members | Sep 18 20:44 |
| sebsebseb | I wonder how to turn that off, and what I did | Sep 18 20:44 |
| fewa | and that is a very sensible definition of industry | Sep 18 20:44 |
| sebsebseb | I can close my IRC client and re open that's one way, but there is bound to be another | Sep 18 20:44 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : did u find any bugs yet on karmic? | Sep 18 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | Amazing. There's a new policy here that forbid use of torrent even for legitimate purposes | Sep 18 20:56 |
| schestowitz | This is like police state on the Net | Sep 18 20:56 |
| _Hicham_ | where ? | Sep 18 20:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Palm To Microsoft: Windows Mobile Just Isn't Working Out: http://is.gd/3qjYI | Sep 18 20:56 | |
| _Hicham_ | in the UK ? | Sep 18 20:56 |
| schestowitz | Nannies decide that mere protocols become illegal, but that's hardly news | Sep 18 20:56 |
| schestowitz | There's also monitoring because of that | Sep 18 20:57 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: it's not news | Sep 18 20:57 |
| schestowitz | Here in the UK there's Phorm also | Sep 18 20:57 |
| schestowitz | It's a prisoner of Hollywood and the 'Big Guys' | Sep 18 20:57 |
| schestowitz | sebsebseb: you can toggle this back on | Sep 18 20:58 |
| schestowitz | Open context menu in the command/text menu | Sep 18 20:58 |
| schestowitz | Find "Auto Spell check" | Sep 18 20:58 |
| schestowitz | Kate is getting this feature too 9I read today) | Sep 18 20:59 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: oh so it is a spell checker, does it even work properly? | Sep 18 20:59 |
| schestowitz | Konversation is better than xchat, so theanks for suggesting it | Sep 18 20:59 |
| schestowitz | sebsebseb: yes | Sep 18 20:59 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : in which way is it better than xchat ? | Sep 18 21:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SoftwareFreedomDay 2009 Starts Now in #Asia http://ping.fm/52XNg | Sep 18 21:00 | |
| *DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 21:01 | |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: np and even in Gnome it's nice | Sep 18 21:01 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC the troll is back | Sep 18 21:02 |
| MinceR | pot, kettle, black. | Sep 18 21:02 |
| DaemonFC | why is it never white or hispanic? | Sep 18 21:02 |
| DaemonFC | or asian perhaps? | Sep 18 21:02 |
| MinceR | due to cultural bias | Sep 18 21:03 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR, joins in on the anti-black conspiracy | Sep 18 21:03 |
| MinceR | and not the "black" skin color. :> | Sep 18 21:03 |
| _Hicham_ | sebsebseb : qt4 programs fit nicely into gnome now | Sep 18 21:04 |
| DaemonFC | GNOME fits nicely in the year 1998 | Sep 18 21:04 |
| sebsebseb | _Hicham_: So do KDE 3 really, ok so they look different to Gnome apps, the KDE 3 or 4 ones in Gnome, but so be it | Sep 18 21:04 |
| MinceR | (in western culture, black is associated with death, evil and similar stuff) | Sep 18 21:04 |
| DaemonFC | I know that | Sep 18 21:04 |
| sebsebseb | Did someone say DaemonFC is a troll, well the comment just now regarding Gnome is | Sep 18 21:04 |
| _Hicham_ | sebsebseb : qt4 uses native gtk themes | Sep 18 21:05 |
| DaemonFC | Chuck Norris uses GNOME because it's too afraid to hide all the options from him | Sep 18 21:05 |
| sebsebseb | _Hicham_: some people don't like having KDE stuff in Gnome, but I think it's good to mix KDE and Gnome apps together, to get better apps over all | Sep 18 21:06 |
| schestowitz | WHat has gnome got that kde4 does not have yet:? | Sep 18 21:06 |
| _Hicham_ | sebsebseb : there is a difference between KDE stuff and Qt stuff | Sep 18 21:06 |
| schestowitz | gnome-do is sorta de-specific | Sep 18 21:06 |
| sebsebseb | _Hicham_: oh? | Sep 18 21:06 |
| schestowitz | I use gtk stuff | Sep 18 21:06 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Gnome is more keep it simple stupid by default :) unlike KDE | Sep 18 21:06 |
| schestowitz | Does that qualify as 'GNOME'? | Sep 18 21:06 |
| _Hicham_ | KDE stuff brings all the KDE libs | Sep 18 21:06 |
| DaemonFC | can't avoid it really | Sep 18 21:07 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox is GTK+ | Sep 18 21:07 |
| _Hicham_ | whereas Qt stuff needs lib Qt only | Sep 18 21:07 |
| schestowitz | other DEs also use FTK | Sep 18 21:07 |
| schestowitz | *GTK | Sep 18 21:07 |
| schestowitz | It doesn't make them "GNOME" apps | Sep 18 21:07 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox brings in so much GNOME crap that bringing in more doesn't really add much to the dependency pile | Sep 18 21:07 |
| schestowitz | IIRC,, LXDE is mostly GTK also | Sep 18 21:07 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz, I may have figured out the Comcast thing | Sep 18 21:08 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u can have Firefox without the dependencies | Sep 18 21:08 |
| DaemonFC | I think Bittorrent pisses it off | Sep 18 21:08 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_, It'll look like ass | Sep 18 21:08 |
| DaemonFC | but yeah | Sep 18 21:08 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: hmm even when the KDE 3 series was the one being used mainly since no KDE 4, I guess people used Xchat in it hmm, ,but Konversation KDE 3 series version is rather nice as well | Sep 18 21:09 |
| _Hicham_ | GTK only apps are lighter than GNOME apps | Sep 18 21:09 |
| _Hicham_ | same for Qt and KDE | Sep 18 21:09 |
| *jono has quit ("Later, Skater") | Sep 18 21:10 | |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC is now the official owner of TrollTech | Sep 18 21:11 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Are the logs being done by Konversation now rather than Xchat? | Sep 18 21:11 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: can't you toss them? | Sep 18 21:13 |
| schestowitz | I listened to an audiocast from Michigan today | Sep 18 21:13 |
| schestowitz | Malda and /, guys | Sep 18 21:13 |
| schestowitz | They have the Internet go down about once a week | Sep 18 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz, AT&T is just as bad | Sep 18 21:13 |
| schestowitz | Needing wireless/telephone connection to stay up | Sep 18 21:13 |
| schestowitz | AT&T is not bad... it's EVIL | Sep 18 21:13 |
| *jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 18 21:14 | |
| DaemonFC | well, if you can tell me anyone else that does any business here besides AT&T and Comcast, I'd love to hear about it | Sep 18 21:14 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: he split trolltech | Sep 18 21:14 |
| schestowitz | He sold the technology | Sep 18 21:14 |
| schestowitz | Onlt the troll was left | Sep 18 21:14 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: we had a contest today. 125 pushups in 2 minutes | Sep 18 21:14 |
| schestowitz | I'd get 2nd place | Sep 18 21:15 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : who is first ? | Sep 18 21:15 |
| schestowitz | Mike | Sep 18 21:15 |
| _Hicham_ | how much did u do ? | Sep 18 21:15 |
| schestowitz | He always wins it | Sep 18 21:15 |
| schestowitz | one hundreds and thirty-something | Sep 18 21:16 |
| schestowitz | *undred | Sep 18 21:16 |
| _Hicham_ | great record | Sep 18 21:16 |
| _Hicham_ | was that continuous | Sep 18 21:16 |
| _Hicham_ | or were u taking breaks ? | Sep 18 21:16 |
| _Hicham_ | I bet that DaemonFC can do more pushups | Sep 18 21:17 |
| cubezzz | DaemonFC, where is here? | Sep 18 21:17 |
| _Hicham_ | he is a great athlete | Sep 18 21:18 |
| _Hicham_ | troll pushups of course | Sep 18 21:18 |
| cubezzz | do trolls have strong arms? :) | Sep 18 21:18 |
| _Hicham_ | of course | Sep 18 21:18 |
| _Hicham_ | to type | Sep 18 21:18 |
| MinceR | http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm | Sep 18 21:19 |
| MinceR | Str 23, that's strong | Sep 18 21:19 |
| DaemonFC | trolls have two middle fingers | Sep 18 21:20 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Sep 18 21:20 |
| *DaemonFC pushes both of them up | Sep 18 21:20 | |
| *DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 18 21:21 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] 10 Geekiest Panties. Geek girls can be sexy too! http://is.gd/3qmS8 | Sep 18 21:21 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : how much pushups did Mike do ? | Sep 18 21:21 |
| schestowitz | Prison Guards Suing For The Right To Bitch About Their Bosses In Private Online Forums < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/1756186228.shtml > | Sep 18 21:22 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: ask him when he drops in (to IRC) | Sep 18 21:22 |
| schestowitz | We're trying to organise an extended night out Sunday, so he ought to come soon | Sep 18 21:23 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : [H]omer ? | Sep 18 21:23 |
| schestowitz | The Lies Newspapers Tell Themselves About Their Traffic < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/0324086222.shtml > | Sep 18 21:23 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: no, he's far up north | Sep 18 21:23 |
| schestowitz | In Tower of Hanoi | Sep 18 21:23 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : what is his IRC handle ? | Sep 18 21:24 |
| schestowitz | Ninth Circuit Groaner About Metatags--Art Attacks v. MGA http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2009/09/ninth_circuit_g.htm | Sep 18 21:24 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: varies. He's not a tech person | Sep 18 21:24 |
| schestowitz | But anyway..... | Sep 18 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Happy Free Software Day | Sep 18 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Do you celebrate this south of France? | Sep 18 21:25 |
| _Hicham_ | Free Software Day ? | Sep 18 21:25 |
| schestowitz | http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/sns-ap-us-tec-ticketmaster-scalpers,0,6028675.story | Sep 18 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Software Freedom | Sep 18 21:26 |
| schestowitz | I wasn't thinking when I typed it | Sep 18 21:26 |
| schestowitz | It's a better name, more explicit | Sep 18 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Less ambiguous rather | Sep 18 21:26 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : is that u ? http://mincer-lightbringer.deviantart.com/ | Sep 18 21:26 |
| MinceR | it is | Sep 18 21:27 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : did u made those drawings urself ? | Sep 18 21:27 |
| MinceR | nah | Sep 18 21:27 |
| MinceR | i have no drawings online | Sep 18 21:27 |
| schestowitz | http://mymediamusings.com/2009/09/17/always-sunny-cast-shows-how-to-reward-old-fans-and-get-new-ones/ | Sep 18 21:27 |
| MinceR | i only use that account for two things | Sep 18 21:27 |
| _Hicham_ | u just gathered them ? | Sep 18 21:27 |
| MinceR | making Full View the default and watching some artists | Sep 18 21:28 |
| MinceR | i've marked them as favorites | Sep 18 21:28 |
| schestowitz | MinceR -- what's that? | Sep 18 21:28 |
| schestowitz | Beef Mincer? | Sep 18 21:28 |
| schestowitz | Minsker? :-p | Sep 18 21:28 |
| MinceR | it's better to mince humans. :> | Sep 18 21:29 |
| schestowitz | Naa.. | Sep 18 21:29 |
| schestowitz | They get devoured by microorganism when they pass away | Sep 18 21:29 |
| schestowitz | Back through the food chain, in essence | Sep 18 21:29 |
| _Hicham_ | so humans are not cycled like software ? | Sep 18 21:29 |
| schestowitz | We're "Star staff" as Cosmos puts it | Sep 18 21:30 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: software does not exist | Sep 18 21:30 |
| schestowitz | It organises data | Sep 18 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Like dNA | Sep 18 21:30 |
| schestowitz | But DNA replicates itself better | Sep 18 21:30 |
| _Hicham_ | and there is no BIOS for DNA manipulation ? | Sep 18 21:31 |
| schestowitz | Chromosomes would make great storage units | Sep 18 21:31 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: but DNA does not eplicate well | Sep 18 21:31 |
| schestowitz | There's random mutation | Sep 18 21:31 |
| schestowitz | Which is actually a good thing | Sep 18 21:31 |
| _Hicham_ | because the combinations are almost infinite | Sep 18 21:32 |
| schestowitz | Natural selection improves the organism over time this way, unlike software which needs outside intervention to improve | Sep 18 21:32 |
| schestowitz | Software does not reproduce, not in the same sense | Sep 18 21:32 |
| _Hicham_ | but the pseudo-random generator should have an algorithm | Sep 18 21:32 |
| schestowitz | Software does not have intercourse to make selection, either | Sep 18 21:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Patent Troll Tracker on trial: http://is.gd/3qnYa | Sep 18 21:32 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : Novell had intercouse with Microsoft which produced patents :) | Sep 18 21:33 |
| _Hicham_ | *intercourse | Sep 18 21:33 |
| MinceR | software does exist, it's information | Sep 18 21:33 |
| schestowitz | '"You know, I think I was outraged over a situation ... and I used words that were strong," said Frenkel. "But I sure didn't mean to hurt anyone by it." Frenkel apologized for using the phrase, and noted that he took it off the blog after 24 hours. In October of 2007, about 500 people per day were accessing the Troll Tracker blog, he added.' | Sep 18 21:33 |
| schestowitz | They still access it, zoobab_ | Sep 18 21:34 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: it didn't work | Sep 18 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Novell was too old to get pregnant | Sep 18 21:34 |
| schestowitz | It got mononucleosis instead | Sep 18 21:34 |
| schestowitz | it's an infection disease that it derives from the dotnot virus | Sep 18 21:35 |
| schestowitz | *infectious | Sep 18 21:35 |
| schestowitz | *derived | Sep 18 21:35 |
| schestowitz | Meh. I need to reread stuff | Sep 18 21:35 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : hormonal treatment ( aka SUSE coupons ) didn't work ? | Sep 18 21:35 |
| schestowitz | True | Sep 18 21:36 |
| schestowitz | hormonal treatment led to suicide | Sep 18 21:36 |
| schestowitz | Like Alen Turing | Sep 18 21:36 |
| schestowitz | *Alan | Sep 18 21:36 |
| schestowitz | Glyn: http://www.openrightsgroup.org/campaigns/yougov-poll-on-disconnection | Sep 18 21:37 |
| schestowitz | Just found it in Moody's twits | Sep 18 21:38 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Africa - home of the world’s largest cyber pandemic, and what needs to be done now < http://intelfusion.net/wordpress/?p=640 > | Sep 18 21:39 |
| Glyn | Yep, plus there is petition http://www.openrightsgroup.org/campaigns/disconnection and the event on Friday the 2 Oct http://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/2009/stop-mandelsons-disconnection-plans | Sep 18 21:39 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : I have a dedicated machine for malware | Sep 18 21:40 |
| schestowitz | That's a lot of parties for Mandelman | Sep 18 21:40 |
| schestowitz | Can't people just expose the underlying agenda? | Sep 18 21:40 |
| schestowitz | Those people hate it when their motives get exposed for all to see and then retreat. | Sep 18 21:40 |
| Glyn | Yep I still think there are a lot people who don't realise the disconnections will be based on accusation not proof | Sep 18 21:41 |
| schestowitz | It's expensive to produce proof | Sep 18 21:41 |
| schestowitz | There's also open wi-fo | Sep 18 21:41 |
| schestowitz | The whole thing is INSANE | Sep 18 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Will parents be disconnected from work cause the little kid clicked stuff? | Sep 18 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Glyn: You know how BN came about, perhaps..... | Sep 18 21:42 |
| schestowitz | We tried to negotiate first | Sep 18 21:42 |
| schestowitz | To convince Novell to change | Sep 18 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Ha. They would not listen to anyone | Sep 18 21:42 |
| Glyn | Yep it looks like every one in the house hold will be disconnected. | Sep 18 21:42 |
| schestowitz | So another route was the last resort to be embraced | Sep 18 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Glyn: except the kid | Sep 18 21:43 |
| schestowitz | The kid will go to mate's house with a netbook and use the wireless connection | Sep 18 21:43 |
| Glyn | The original consultation was very clear that there would be no disconnection, they had planned to throttle you down to dial up speeds and block ll ports except 80. The music industry complained that was not good enough. | Sep 18 21:44 |
| schestowitz | Why don't they cut off the water supply, too? | Sep 18 21:44 |
| schestowitz | Y'know, hunger strangulation | Sep 18 21:44 |
| schestowitz | Glyn: people would just use uSB devices | Sep 18 21:44 |
| schestowitz | They solve nothing | Sep 18 21:44 |
| schestowitz | They just ruin everything | Sep 18 21:45 |
| fewa | eek | Sep 18 21:45 |
| schestowitz | I can't peacefully get a distro from torrent now | Sep 18 21:45 |
| Glyn | We complained that they broken the governments own rules on consultations by changing the consultation half way through. | Sep 18 21:45 |
| fewa | is their a copy of http://eupat.ffii.org/papers/europarl0309/ _not_ from ffii's site | Sep 18 21:45 |
| schestowitz | And forget about me sharing music which was MADE to be shared by their artists | Sep 18 21:45 |
| fewa | it would be more objective that way | Sep 18 21:45 |
| schestowitz | I'd risk an accusation over dojng something which artists WANT to be done | Sep 18 21:45 |
| fewa | not that it isn't valid | Sep 18 21:45 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/ARM-Targets-Intels-Linux-Zone-68144.html?wlc=1253306784&wlc=1253306771 | Sep 18 21:46 |
| Glyn | schestowitz actually we used a variation on that argument lobbying. We said disconnection would not work if they really wanted to achieve their aim they should disconnect the electricity. | Sep 18 21:46 |
| Glyn | This got the instant response "but that would be disproportionate" to which we responded "what you are preposing is also massively disproportionate" | Sep 18 21:48 |
| fewa | I guess Europal has nothing comparable to US Congresses THOMAS? | Sep 18 21:48 |
| Glyn | The music industry like disconnection because suing your own customers is a bad business plan and makes you look bad, far better if they can make it the ISPs fault. | Sep 18 21:49 |
| fewa | "industry" | Sep 18 21:50 |
| Glyn | Some thing else we suggested got a very strong reaction from the music industry. We suggested disconnecting the company if it made three accusations that proved to be false. :) | Sep 18 21:51 |
| fewa | "industry" | Sep 18 21:51 |
| schestowitz | http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/09/volkswagen-l1-concept/ | Sep 18 21:52 |
| Glyn | Chuckles http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/18/jedi-religion-tesco-hood-jones Jedi religion founder accuses Tesco of discrimination over rules on hoods | Sep 18 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Glyn: yes, that would take the ISP down very fast | Sep 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Whose connection is it? | Sep 18 21:53 |
| fewa | say "trade group" (although monopolies are hardly trade), or "business" | Sep 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Moguls before information (that they don't own0 | Sep 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Ridiculous. | Sep 18 21:53 |
| fewa | the NSA has been massively infringing copyright | Sep 18 21:53 |
| fewa | http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/presskit/ATT_onepager.pdf | Sep 18 21:54 |
| fewa | making copies of many peoples stuff | Sep 18 21:54 |
| fewa | all without any permission | Sep 18 21:54 |
| schestowitz | But NSA is not subjected to laws | Sep 18 21:55 |
| schestowitz | There is No Such Agency | Sep 18 21:55 |
| fewa | Looking at the evidence they could well have infringed more copyright than any other entity out there | Sep 18 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Combined? | Sep 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | How about AT&T? | Sep 18 21:56 |
| fewa | for the NSA has planned a massive tax-payer funded serverfarm | Sep 18 21:56 |
| fewa | schestowitz, AT&T created a _transient_ copy for the NSA | Sep 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | ISPs that make copies of E-mails break the law too | Sep 18 21:56 |
| fewa | its only NSA that stored it permanentally to disk | Sep 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | THey commit copyright infringement | Sep 18 21:56 |
| fewa | which is the copyright infringing part | Sep 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | But only the 'small people' have these rules apply _TO_ them | Sep 18 21:57 |
| fewa | funny with that is that broadcast wouldnt then infringe copyright | Sep 18 21:57 |
| fewa | not sure how they make that enforcable | Sep 18 21:57 |
| fewa | by yes, AT&T conspired to assist the NSA with massive copyright infringement | Sep 18 21:58 |
| fewa | a massive tax-payer funded serverfarm, whose sole purpose (ostensibly) is to spy on those same tax-payers | Sep 18 21:58 |
| fewa | and use all that warrentlessly obtained and copyright-infringing information got as a result of dragnet survillence | Sep 18 21:59 |
| schestowitz | The MSBBC wants broadcast flag here | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | This is appalling | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | They are controlled by media elites | Sep 18 22:00 |
| fewa | show how the US did without | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | Viewers' opinions don't count | Sep 18 22:00 |
| fewa | and argeddon did not happen | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | Government are made to serve public interests | Sep 18 22:00 |
| fewa | *Armageddon | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | Not elite interests | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | But they brainwash people and tell them what to want | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | DRM, patents, etc,. | Sep 18 22:00 |
| _Hicham_ | my opinion counts | Sep 18 22:00 |
| schestowitz | And then if someone says "no" they call it "dissident" | Sep 18 22:01 |
| fewa | http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/06/dtv-era-no-broadcast | Sep 18 22:01 |
| Glyn | BBC wants DRM here. | Sep 18 22:01 |
| fewa | oo yeah eff did a blog post on it: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/09/broadcast-flag-uk | Sep 18 22:01 |
| fewa | Glyn, don't they already have it? | Sep 18 22:01 |
| fewa | or where... | Sep 18 22:01 |
| _Hicham_ | BBC is using ogg | Sep 18 22:01 |
| _Hicham_ | and has developed dirac codec | Sep 18 22:01 |
| schestowitz | half of all users have firefox? http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/2009/09/half_of_all_users_ha.html | Sep 18 22:01 |
| _Hicham_ | so they are playing on both sides | Sep 18 22:02 |
| Glyn | Not on broadcasts. They only use DRM on some of the iplayer streams. | Sep 18 22:02 |
| fewa | DRM is much woorse than using patented codecs | Sep 18 22:02 |
| fewa | *DRM is much woorse than using documented patented codecs | Sep 18 22:02 |
| schestowitz | The customer is the enemy | Sep 18 22:02 |
| Glyn | http://www.openrightsgroup.org/blog/2009/bbc-seeks-tv-encryption-through-the-back-door | Sep 18 22:02 |
| schestowitz | Rather, the BBC's funding source is 'the enemy' | Sep 18 22:02 |
| fewa | like the MPEGs | Sep 18 22:02 |
| fewa | DRM is technical deficiencies, patents are a solely legal issue | Sep 18 22:03 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : vive Firefox | Sep 18 22:04 |
| Glyn | Interestingly in this case they are trying to use the EU database right to protect the transform table. Different approach same result if they do it. | Sep 18 22:04 |
| fewa | oh wow http://www.eff.org/cases/ala-v-fcc | Sep 18 22:05 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : u r not using Mandriva anymore ? | Sep 18 22:05 |
| fewa | broadcast flag is not under FCC's mandate | Sep 18 22:05 |
| fewa | /s/mandate/authority/ | Sep 18 22:06 |
| schestowitz | http://memex.naughtons.org/archives/2009/09/18/8975 | Sep 18 22:16 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: I might go back there when 2010 is out with kde 4.3 | Sep 18 22:17 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : KDE 4.3.1 is already there | Sep 18 22:18 |
| schestowitz | Moon is coldest known place in the solar system http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17810-moon-is-coldest-place-in-the-solar-system.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news | Sep 18 22:19 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: which version? | Sep 18 22:19 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: does Morocco use Mand in govt? | Sep 18 22:19 |
| schestowitz | It's French | Sep 18 22:19 |
| schestowitz | [And Brazilian] | Sep 18 22:20 |
| schestowitz | Russian govt. uses Mandriva | Sep 18 22:20 |
| _Hicham_ | _Hicham_ : 2010.0 Beta | Sep 18 22:20 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : Morocco uses Windows only solutions | Sep 18 22:20 |
| _Hicham_ | in government and in desktop | Sep 18 22:20 |
| _Hicham_ | piracy is all over here | Sep 18 22:20 |
| _Hicham_ | Windows CDs are for $0.5 | Sep 18 22:21 |
| schestowitz | http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/2009/09/18/finding-easter-eggs/ | Sep 18 22:21 |
| schestowitz | Yahoo!: We Could Use Google or Bing Search < http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Yahoo-Bing-Google-Search,8679.html > | Sep 18 22:24 |
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| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC the Comcaster is trolling faster and faster | Sep 18 22:26 |
| schestowitz | The MI spies on this channel ALL BECAUSE OF RYAN !! :-p | Sep 18 22:28 |
| schestowitz | *5 | Sep 18 22:28 |
| MinceR | he's the only one MI-5 deemed worthy of attention? psh. | Sep 18 22:29 |
| DaemonFC | hmmmm | Sep 18 22:29 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Your tax money at work? | Sep 18 22:29 |
| fewa | some describe that as an oxymoron | Sep 18 22:33 |
| fewa | "military intelligence" | Sep 18 22:33 |
| schestowitz | http://www.internetnews.com/mobility/article.php/3839691 | Sep 18 22:34 |
| schestowitz | fewa: "Intel military" make more sense | Sep 18 22:35 |
| schestowitz | Given Intel's militant approach towards competition -- bribes, sabotage, abuse, etc. | Sep 18 22:35 |
| schestowitz | Intel is still a criminal company... a shame my in-law works for it | Sep 18 22:36 |
| schestowitz | ANd my brother does an interview with them | Sep 18 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Will Lack of E-Mail Policies Land Your Company in Court? < http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/bentley/will-lack-of-e-mail-policies-land-your-company-in-court/?cs=35619 > | Sep 18 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Intel exterminates E-mails that show crimes | Sep 18 22:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] listening to obscure Wellington NZ indie band This Will Kill That. Fucking brilliant noise. MP3s released by band. http://is.gd/3qtBL | Sep 18 22:44 | |
| DaemonFC | oh noez, not the evil MP3z | Sep 18 22:45 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Sep 18 22:45 |
| schestowitz | I'm gonna look at some news... | Sep 18 22:48 |
| DaemonFC | I do suspect that FhG and Thomson are smoking crack these days | Sep 18 22:49 |
| DaemonFC | trying to turn MP3 into a hybrid lossy/lossless format | Sep 18 22:49 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Enterprise L[inux]AMP Summit is Coming http://bit.ly/IEEnO | Sep 18 22:53 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bishop Fox's Community School Installs #KDE 4.3 in Network Rooms http://bit.ly/4gx8RJ | Sep 18 22:55 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Plumbers #Conference is Coming http://bit.ly/N3T7O | Sep 18 22:58 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Journal Has Birthday, GNOME Activity Journal Previews Posted http://www.silwenae.org/blog/?p=1208 http://bit.ly/QemAd | Sep 18 23:03 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KDE 's #Kate Gets Highly-Anticipated Features http://bit.ly/WWwja Woohoo! In-line spellchecker, finally. I've waited for 3 years. | Sep 18 23:05 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu Looks Great, Gets Boost from #Alfresco http://bit.ly/2c9peO http://bit.ly/2sDEm http://bit.ly/18Avsh | Sep 18 23:07 | |
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| _Hicham_ | schestowitz looks much more better | Sep 18 23:12 |
| _Hicham_ | he is in fact seducing all uk ladies | Sep 18 23:12 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows Mobile Gets Slaughtered by the #Linux Platforms http://bit.ly/3vYJEO | Sep 18 23:13 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Intel and #Windows Can Get Tossed from #Sub-notebooks Thanks to #ARM , #Ubuntu http://bit.ly/TDKOy | Sep 18 23:15 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OLPC Brains Recognise the Value of #FreeSoftware http://bit.ly/14w0Vs #bender | Sep 18 23:17 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Oracle Could Own a Lot of #FreeSoftware http://bit.ly/lkNdH | Sep 18 23:24 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Corporatist #NewYorkTimes Adopts #FreeSoftware Internally http://bit.ly/8DxX0 | Sep 18 23:25 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #European Agency for Safety and #Health at Work Promotes #FreeSoftware http://bit.ly/158iLr | Sep 18 23:26 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FSF and #Sugar (of #OLPC ) Join Forces http://www.fsf.org/news/sugar-labs | Sep 18 23:31 | |
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| MinceR | http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/18/0033227/The-Credibility-Issues-of-MSs-CodePlex-Foundation?from=rss | Sep 18 23:32 |
| MinceR | avast! today be International Talk Like A Pirate Day (your timezone may vary) >> http://www.talklikeapirate.com/ | Sep 18 23:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Launches Mongolian Direct Outreach, "Pass it on" Campaign http://bit.ly/6z2OP http://commonspace.wordpress.com/2009/09/17/post ... | Sep 18 23:33 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Twitter Chooses to Make Code #FreeSoftware Rather Than #Abadonware http://bit.ly/pqlky | Sep 18 23:35 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google Prepares New #FreeSoftware #Programming Push http://bit.ly/sZLsq #noop | Sep 18 23:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] UK #AstroTurf Story Shows Sheer #PowwowWater #Abuse http://www.ht2.org/ben/?p=17 | Sep 18 23:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #BBC 's Abuse of Its Funders with #DRM Leads to #Ofcom Complaint http://bit.ly/aQ248 | Sep 18 23:49 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Skype a Victim of #PoliceState Madness http://bit.ly/sVIRQ http://bit.ly/Rsgjn http://bit.ly/TQT6E | Sep 18 23:50 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Wifey just got back from a Jamie Oliver party. Catalog has #ubuntu "pinch pots" which leapt off the page http://bit.ly/2kQhD5 | Sep 18 23:53 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] oh dear Lord MICROSOFT SODA http://is.gd/3qBMf | Sep 18 23:55 | |
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