IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 20th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "City wants software freedom for all" on software freedom day http://bit.ly/17ll3K		Sep 20 00:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] US #Government Moves to #Server Side for Services and Programming http://bit.ly/XuqIj		Sep 20 00:08
*lis` (n=lis@pub082136122103.dh-hfc.datazug.ch) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 00:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Political #AstroTurfing at Stake as Role of Legalised Bribery ( #Lobbying ) is Debated http://bit.ly/3NkfeS		Sep 20 00:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NetNeutrality to be Defended by #FCC , Claims #JuliusGenachowski http://bit.ly/3yfyZj		Sep 20 00:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Transforms Kids into #IntellectualMonopolies Propagandists http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/1819256229.shtml http://bit.ly ...		Sep 20 00:16
*twitter (n=willhill@97-113-230-249.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 00:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Uses #Lobbyists as "Yes Men" for #DRM http://techdirt.com/articles/20090918/0205336236.shtml		Sep 20 00:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Oregon Tells the #Law Only to Rich People http://techdirt.com/articles/20090918/0957096240.shtml		Sep 20 00:20
twitter	yes, the Slashdot effect has become weak. People trust the summaries and have been driven off by M$ obnoxion.	Sep 20 00:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PaulGraham Explains Why Old-style #Publishing Will Die http://www.paulgraham.com/publishing.html		Sep 20 00:22
trmanco	http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/filters_ex4.html	Sep 20 00:28
trmanco	found a mirror	Sep 20 00:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] FFII Organises Anti-Software Patents Day http://bit.ly/3sLOEC		Sep 20 00:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Accused of "Thievery" in #Patent Case http://www.argosy.ca/view.php?aid=41596		Sep 20 00:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pay-to-say Firm #IDC Says #Google is Gaining at Expense of #AbusiveMonopoly http://bit.ly/1BZ1s		Sep 20 00:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MSDOJ Revisits #Yahoo Sellout to #Microsoft http://bit.ly/4jQjYN http://bit.ly/4yGPGj http://bit.ly/2yikGg		Sep 20 00:39
twitter	good bye Beacon. http://www.pcworld.com/article/172272/facebook_will_shut_down_beacon_to_settle_lawsuit.html	Sep 20 00:40
twitter	I wonder why people don't apply the same laws to M$ Windows.	Sep 20 00:41
twitter	-> The lawsuit, filed in August of last year, alleged that Facebook and its Beacon affiliates like Blockbuster and Overstock.com violated a series of laws, including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the Video Privacy Protection Act, the California Consumer Legal Remedies Act and the California Computer Crime Law.	Sep 20 00:41
schestowitz	twitter: so they diffused the site with slashjections	Sep 20 00:42
twitter	diluted and disrupted comments, submissions and stories. I wonder if they also diluted editors.	Sep 20 00:43
twitter	is this a crippled gnu/linux pad? http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/browsers/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=220001055	Sep 20 00:50
twitter	http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2353044,00.asp	Sep 20 00:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Kills #Windows #Server 2000 http://bit.ly/2hC1XT		Sep 20 00:53
twitter	-> the controls are touch, but are built into the bezel of the device	Sep 20 00:53
twitter	sad	Sep 20 00:53
MinceR	lame	Sep 20 00:54
twitter	I wonder if you can get a decent distro and xstroke on it anyway.	Sep 20 00:54
schestowitz	/. folks can bring over readership to Groklaw, TuxMachines, BN...	Sep 20 00:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Recruits 'Independent' #MaryJoFoley and #PaulThurrott to be #Vista7 #PR Bunnies http://bit.ly/gnEEO/www/story/09-17-2009/000 ...		Sep 20 00:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Recruits More #Shills for #Vista7 in #China, Pays HK$7,777 Per Day http://bit.ly/i356H #astroturf		Sep 20 01:00
cubezzz	no arm for windows	Sep 20 01:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is Paying the Pay-to-Say #Forrester 'Research' to Help Promote #Vista7 http://bit.ly/5NtrQ #astroturf #shill		Sep 20 01:02
cubezzz	windows 7 anyway	Sep 20 01:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is Exploiting #Children to Advertise #Vista7, Create Guilt http://bit.ly/CsDoy #abuse		Sep 20 01:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Senior #Marketing Manager Explains "Tweet Assignments" http://bit.ly/39RWi7 #pr #twitter		Sep 20 01:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Breaks the #Law in #Korea -- Again (Found Guilty) http://bit.ly/SPdcb http://bit.ly/ATug5 http://bit.ly/2oVxLd		Sep 20 01:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 58,000 US Bank Employees to Dump #Microsoft #Sharepoint http://bit.ly/P8u2o		Sep 20 01:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @schestowitz 58,000 US Bank Employees to Dump #Microsoft #Sharepoint http://bit.ly/P8u2o		Sep 20 01:16
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zlg	isnt lotus notes proprietary ?	Sep 20 01:18
Diablo-D3	yes	Sep 20 01:21
Diablo-D3	but its also rather boring	Sep 20 01:22
zlg	yes , an dold	Sep 20 01:22
zlg	old*	Sep 20 01:22
Diablo-D3	a lot of smart companies have switched to other things	Sep 20 01:22
cubezzz	just out of morbid curiousity, what's the closest linux equivalent?	Sep 20 01:42
Diablo-D3	there isnt one	Sep 20 01:43
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cubezzz	was it old enough to have a MS DOS client?	Sep 20 01:52
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Diablo-D3	poooossssibly	Sep 20 01:52
Diablo-D3	check wikipedia	Sep 20 01:52
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cubezzz	yeah it did	Sep 20 01:52
cubezzz	firmly in the MS world I see	Sep 20 01:52
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to cubezzz		Sep 20 01:53
cubezzz	although I see it has it's roots in Control Data's Plato learning system	Sep 20 01:53
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cubezzz	not sure if Control Data is still around	Sep 20 01:55
cubezzz	they must be gone, a pity	Sep 20 02:00
Will	Well, MS missed the back-to-school period for Windows 7 launch. Would it be crazy to think that might be part of some plan to squeeze a little extra money out? Sell them all Vista computers, then offer Win7 upgrades for cheap a month later.	Sep 20 02:07
cubezzz	I think the whole windows house of cards is ready to collapse	Sep 20 02:08
cubezzz	we'll see :)	Sep 20 02:08
Will	cubezzz: i don't think it is indefinitely sustainable, but I'm wondering how slow the fall will be.	Sep 20 02:09
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Will	Probably the fall will happen at a glacial pace up to a certain point, then go the rest of the way with dizzying speed.	Sep 20 02:09
cubezzz	no more wintel dominance, at least I can't see it	Sep 20 02:09
Will	Netbooks are likely to help, especially once ARM gets properly in the game. No one saw that phenomenon coming	Sep 20 02:11
cubezzz	quite a while ago I talked to a guy who actually predicted windows taking over... back in 1994 I think windows 3.1 era	Sep 20 02:11
cubezzz	I'll like an ARM with an FPU actually	Sep 20 02:11
cubezzz	not sure if that exists	Sep 20 02:12
Will	Halloween documents. Microsoft got scared to Linux years before most people would consider it usable.	Sep 20 02:12
Will	Chrome is still a wild card for now.	Sep 20 02:13
cubezzz	well when I was talking to HP devs I saw the bad stuff coming... the dropping of support for Unix for scanners	Sep 20 02:13
Will	cubezzz: ?	Sep 20 02:13
cubezzz	back around 2000	Sep 20 02:14
cubezzz	they dropped a lot of multi-OS support for things	Sep 20 02:14
cubezzz	when Microsoft _was not_ broken up	Sep 20 02:14
cubezzz	that is directly traceable to the Halloween stuff	Sep 20 02:15
cubezzz	'de-commoditize protocols' I think was the term	Sep 20 02:16
Will	2000 was very different from today. Linux wasn't really ready for the consumer desktop. OSX was in its infancy. At the time, Windows probably was the best and maybe only choice for most people.	Sep 20 02:16
cubezzz	Will, yeah I am sorry to say it took me until 2003 to break free from Microsoft	Sep 20 02:17
cubezzz	well, back in 1998 I tried a bunch of different ones	Sep 20 02:18
cubezzz	Minix, Linux, BeOS...	Sep 20 02:18
cubezzz	I had dropped Amiga by that time... no more Commodore dealers, no nothing	Sep 20 02:19
Will	cubezzz: I didn't even know what Linux was in 2000. I didn't start using it at all until 2004, and I didn't switch over to it as my primary OS until 2-3 years ago.	Sep 20 02:20
Will	but when I look at Linux circa 2004 and the 2009 releases, it might as well be a completely different operating system in terms of how much it has grown and matured.	Sep 20 02:21
cubezzz	ok, I tried Darkstar Linux 0.94 and I can't remember exactly when that was, but it was before 1998	Sep 20 02:22
cubezzz	I should have switched over faster but I had some trouble with cdrom drivers	Sep 20 02:22
cubezzz	especially since I had used SCO Unix System V at work, I had some *nix experience	Sep 20 02:23
Will	What impresses me about most open source stuff is that it is always maturing. Often at a fast rate, sometimes at a slow rate, but always moving forward. There are occasional events like the KDE4 transition where it takes one step backwards to soon after take two steps forwards, but I've never seen the kind of serious regression in open source that a certain other OS has been characterized by.	Sep 20 02:23
cubezzz	I didn't like Unix all that much at the start, I liked AmigaDOS better	Sep 20 02:23
cubezzz	Will, the FOSS concept itself is the key	Sep 20 02:24
cubezzz	programming your own stuff is fun	Sep 20 02:24
cubezzz	doesn't matter if one company dies, it still survives on different hardware	Sep 20 02:25
cubezzz	Microsoft calls Linux a "Hydra" :)	Sep 20 02:25
Will	that and being guided by your own needs and the needs of your users instead of being lead around by a marketing dept.	Sep 20 02:25
Will	hydra is a good term for it.	Sep 20 02:26
zlg	at least they did not call it a cerberujs	Sep 20 02:26
zlg	cerberus	Sep 20 02:26
Will	does that make windows a chimera?	Sep 20 02:26
cubezzz	WIndows is what Treebeard called Saruman, all closed and shuttered	Sep 20 02:27
Will	cubezzz: in that context, I could argue that Windows is Sauron; Saruman would be a better fit to Novell.	Sep 20 02:28
cubezzz	I probably would have called IBM Sauron before	Sep 20 02:28
zlg	it would be more medusa	Sep 20 02:29
Will	zlg: it does have a tendency to turn innovation to stone.	Sep 20 02:29
Will	And it is often a jumbled conglomeration of things Microsoft absorbed.	Sep 20 02:30
zlg	so it freezes everytime you look at it LOL	Sep 20 02:30
cubezzz	zlg: HA	Sep 20 02:30
cubezzz	The comparison to the Borg is also apt	Sep 20 02:30
Will	zlg: funny. so, in true MS fashion, they couldn't get that right either? Medusa is supposed to freeze what _it_ looks at not the other way around. Unless you have a mirror.	Sep 20 02:31
zlg	when you use it, "something is going to go bad" LOL	Sep 20 02:32
Will	cubezzz: Slashdot loves that png of "Billcutus"	Sep 20 02:33
cubezzz	that makes me think of Clash of the Titans	Sep 20 02:33
cubezzz	I'll like to see some linux boxes in stores this fall	Sep 20 02:34
Will	zlg: the windows EULA is cerberus.	Sep 20 02:35
Will	cubezzz: for a brief time a year or so ago there were $20 boxed sets of Ubuntu on the shelves at Best Buy	Sep 20 02:36
Will	But they had zero marketing and where placed in a really random place on the bottom shelves.	Sep 20 02:36
cubezzz	well it's a tough sell	Sep 20 02:37
Will	i guess those didn't sell too well and were pulled. Surprise surprise. They were sitting in with the garbage bin windows software section that most big box stores have.	Sep 20 02:37
cubezzz	people can download ISOs and burn them for 25 cents per disc	Sep 20 02:38
Will	true, but the people that could benefit most from Ubuntu don't know that.	Sep 20 02:38
cubezzz	not to mention the Ubuntu guys were mailing them out for free :)	Sep 20 02:38
Will	they don't know that either	Sep 20 02:38
zlg	thats how I got my first linux's was from magizenes from news agents, generally around $14, RH7.0	Sep 20 02:38
cubezzz	that's why I said "Linux Boxes", not Linux discs	Sep 20 02:39
Will	what it comes down to is that Linux needs marketing. Before it maturity and polish were more important, but that stage is nearly over. It's time for the Linux community to think about marketing.	Sep 20 02:39
zlg	this was basically a Box set with 2 CD's and a book on how to use RH, install ect.	Sep 20 02:40
zlg	it was all you needed to get up and running on linux.	Sep 20 02:40
cubezzz	Magazines are better than just the disc by itself certainly	Sep 20 02:40
zlg	I think I still have it here, I certainly still have the CD's	Sep 20 02:41
Will	And I know I'll get the standard "Linux was doing fine before and will do fine now". That's true. Linux will continue to grow by word of mouth. But MS and Apple aren't going to sit around and play softball. They'll do whatever they can to shut out Linux. Once Linux gets just enough market share to be somewhat commonly known about--maybe only ~20%, it will be much harder for MS and Apple to ignore standards.	Sep 20 02:41
Will	Look at Firefox	Sep 20 02:43
Will	If Linux in general gets to the point that Firefox is at now, the hardest part will be over.	Sep 20 02:43
_Hicham_	Linux needs marketing	Sep 20 02:43
_Hicham_	Ubuntu is a good proof	Sep 20 02:44
_Hicham_	Mozilla is a good proof also	Sep 20 02:44
Will	Hicham: exactly	Sep 20 02:44
fewa	Will, agreed 100%	Sep 20 02:45
_Hicham_	Canonical's ShipIt service have helped Ubuntu enormously	Sep 20 02:45
Will	I was using Linux prior to Ubuntu. What did Ubuntu do at a technological level that the others before it didn't? A little more polish here and there maybe, but nothing substancial. What it did different was establish a marketing presence.	Sep 20 02:45
fewa	Mozilla is an amazing success	Sep 20 02:45
_Hicham_	I really do admire Mozilla for their marketing strategy	Sep 20 02:46
twitter	The people at Ubuntu might be insulted by your assessment, Will.	Sep 20 02:46
twitter	no one developer really does much	Sep 20 02:46
fewa	i.e. nothing substansial	Sep 20 02:47
_Hicham_	well, it is true that Ubuntu didn't do much	Sep 20 02:47
_Hicham_	as Debian was already there	Sep 20 02:47
twitter	and what does Debian do?	Sep 20 02:47
fewa	i would say that most Linux and GNU/Linux improvements have been substansial	Sep 20 02:47
fewa	its just not how development is done	Sep 20 02:47
_Hicham_	Debian established the distro	Sep 20 02:47
_Hicham_	the packaging system	Sep 20 02:47
_Hicham_	the installer	Sep 20 02:47
_Hicham_	and so on	Sep 20 02:48
twitter	yeah, yeah.	Sep 20 02:48
twitter	what do they do today?	Sep 20 02:48
fewa	*have not been	Sep 20 02:48
fewa	damn	Sep 20 02:48
twitter	that's the nature of free software	Sep 20 02:48
twitter	it's there for everyone to build on.	Sep 20 02:48
fewa	realiable packaging	Sep 20 02:48
Will	Well, my apologies, but how much can I say about any distro when much of it is the result of its constituent package developers and maintainers.	Sep 20 02:48
zlg	ubuntu contributed more to FOSS and code or improvements, it contfributed, some consistancy, a larger and controlled organization, and marketing and promotion	Sep 20 02:48
fewa	you dont have to ask to improve and build upon	Sep 20 02:48
Will	Maybe I did misspeak there.	Sep 20 02:48
_Hicham_	Shuttleworth knows the pitfalls of Linux Distros	Sep 20 02:49
fewa	Will, well we do have to be focused on realities	Sep 20 02:49
_Hicham_	what is why he was successful	Sep 20 02:49
_Hicham_	plus, his experience as an ex-Debian dev	Sep 20 02:49
fewa	Red Hat doesn't permit non-free drivers--which pressures hardware manufactures	Sep 20 02:49
fewa	they develop ALSA, PolicyKit, virt-manager	Sep 20 02:50
twitter	How do we measure success of a distribution? Are there links to reliable market share info?	Sep 20 02:50
fewa	othe rstuff	Sep 20 02:50
Will	fewa -- that was one of the things I put under "more polished (the drivers) I should have put that in Ubuntu's credit.	Sep 20 02:50
_Hicham_	Shuttleworth claims that Ubuntu is used by more than 8 million people	Sep 20 02:50
twitter	I think Debian is a great success because it continues to provide reliable, free computing.	Sep 20 02:50
Will	In any case, Ubuntu and Debian are my distros of choice at the moment.	Sep 20 02:51
twitter	Surely there are as many Debian, Red Hat and other users.	Sep 20 02:51
fewa	Will, the only thing that is more polished is allowing people to sign away their rights, and the programmers ability to change the system	Sep 20 02:51
twitter	8 million is not a large number.	Sep 20 02:51
fewa	with non-free drivers which hold back development	Sep 20 02:51
twitter	Non free drivers are a big problem.	Sep 20 02:52
fewa	*Im going to clarify that: polished with drivers as you mentioned	Sep 20 02:52
zlg	twitter it's relative, it is a huge number if it the number of steps you have to run, or seconds to hold your breath	Sep 20 02:52
Will	fewa -- I know. One day, I hope open drivers will be the norm. For now, a bit of pragmatism might be needed. If no one uses Linux, there won't be enough pressure on manufacturers to open their drivers.	Sep 20 02:52
_Hicham_	Mandriva One have more non-free stuff	Sep 20 02:52
fewa	*not with respect to whole system, to which I don't really know	Sep 20 02:52
fewa	Will, yes, i'm not saying that ubuntu is not good	Sep 20 02:53
fewa	but allowing people to use non-free drivers which hold back development is not a real improvement	Sep 20 02:53
fewa	very clearly not a real improvement	Sep 20 02:53
fewa	but yes, getting people to use Linux is important	Sep 20 02:53
_Hicham_	I don't use proprietary drivers for the moment	Sep 20 02:53
Will	fewa: probably 90% of computer users out there have no idea what you just said.	Sep 20 02:54
zlg	people should be FREE to use whatever they like in a distro, if they need closed drivers, and they dont mind, its up to the users.	Sep 20 02:54
twitter	Non free drivers are detrimental to everyone, users, developers and distros.	Sep 20 02:54
fewa	bus as RMS said, even if you get everyone to use free software, if they don't understand freedom that platform will become non-free	Sep 20 02:54
twitter	users have a hard time upgrading.	Sep 20 02:54
fewa	they will be all to ready to hand it away	Sep 20 02:54
fewa	Will, non-free drivers create the bad experiences that plague Windows	Sep 20 02:54
fewa	we do not want to replocate that	Sep 20 02:54
Will	fewa -- as an Nvidia card owner, I know first hand... and I want my plymouth.	Sep 20 02:55
twitter	M$ and other companies can screw distros around for their drivers. This hurt distros and the users who are forced to hop from one distro d'jour to the next.	Sep 20 02:55
fewa	free software drivers are not just a thing of lofty idealists, there is firm pragmatism in it	Sep 20 02:55
twitter	Yes, non free drivers are flaky	Sep 20 02:55
fewa	twitter, and they hold back development by forcing the continuation of legacy interfaces	Sep 20 02:55
fewa	which cant be changed	Sep 20 02:56
fewa	That why Windows is such a POS	Sep 20 02:56
fewa	among other reasons, but that is one of the main ones	Sep 20 02:56
twitter	yes, it's obvious that development for non free software is second rate.	Sep 20 02:56
fewa	Its not just freedom, its also critical in making a quality product	Sep 20 02:56
Will	twitter: agreed	Sep 20 02:56
twitter	it creates a lot of work.	Sep 20 02:56
_Hicham_	nvidia driver have been reverse engineered	Sep 20 02:56
fewa	so Will's view is short-sided	Sep 20 02:56
_Hicham_	which is wasting a lot of time	Sep 20 02:56
twitter	API documentation is a waste of effort.	Sep 20 02:56
Will	fewa: the then is as you said: How do we get people to understand and care about software freedom?	Sep 20 02:57
twitter	it's easy. You get them to use free software.	Sep 20 02:57
fewa	Will, by showing the difference it can make in the quality	Sep 20 02:57
fewa	^^^^^^	Sep 20 02:57
zlg	If you reverse engineer a "flaky, and POS" proprietary driver, how is it possible for your reverse engineered version to have the same !functionaloity, and be equally "flaky"	Sep 20 02:57
twitter	It does not take long for people to realize that free software is better.	Sep 20 02:57
fewa	what twitter said	Sep 20 02:57
twitter	It takes less work to use and keep.	Sep 20 02:57
cubezzz	I got tossed from the Linux counter	Sep 20 02:57
fewa	zlg, you can fix the bugs in the new version	Sep 20 02:57
fewa	zlg, this has happened many times in computer history	Sep 20 02:58
twitter	bbl	Sep 20 02:58
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")		Sep 20 02:58
zlg	You reverse engineer functionaly, generally, not code. but I guess, Reverse engeering sounds like another form of stealing someone elses code IMHO.	Sep 20 02:58
Will	fewa: Maybe I've just talked to the wrong people, but it seems like there are plenty out there that just don't get it, won't get it, don't care about getting it.	Sep 20 02:59
fewa	zlg, you are a troll, go away	Sep 20 02:59
zlg	why,? because I said something that you dont agree with ?? wow	Sep 20 02:59
fewa	Will, then they are at the mercy of those who get it	Sep 20 02:59
fewa	zlg, no, you have been in this channel a long time	Sep 20 03:00
zlg	your poinkt is?	Sep 20 03:00
fewa	and you have the exact same behavior as _Mutex_	Sep 20 03:00
zlg	I think you've been here quite awiletoo	Sep 20 03:00
ThistleWeb	there are many ways to code function, stealing code would be doing it the way they have	Sep 20 03:00
_Hicham_	we should boycott proprietary drivers	Sep 20 03:00
_Hicham_	personally, I won't buy a laptop that doesn't have an Intel graphic chipset	Sep 20 03:01
_Hicham_	because Intel graphic chipset do have open source drivers	Sep 20 03:01
zlg	Fewa, ok ill trynot to upset your delicate sensibilities by not saying anything you do not agree with. ok ?	Sep 20 03:01
Will	That's part of where my "short-sighted" idea came from. But what you just said sums up something I get now. Some people get discombobulated if you so much as rearrange their desktop icons. I thought if I present Linux in a more familiar fashion, maybe they will accept it and grow in time. I think some have. But would they in general?	Sep 20 03:01
ThistleWeb	oh, and getting people to use free software does nothing to help them understand and care about free software	Sep 20 03:01
ThistleWeb	people use firefox because it's the best, many dont know or care that it's FOSS	Sep 20 03:02
fewa	zlg, Dowling v. United States (1985 - supreme court) "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ..."	Sep 20 03:02
_Hicham_	ThistleWeb : we don't need to give the FOSS argument to people	Sep 20 03:02
zlg	fewa, so ?	Sep 20 03:03
ThistleWeb	I know, I'm pointing out that "getting people to use it" is not the answer to "how do we get people to care about it"	Sep 20 03:03
_Hicham_	Mozilla have used a lot of arguments to convince people	Sep 20 03:03
ThistleWeb	Mozilla also happen to make VERY good products, and win on merrit	Sep 20 03:04
Will	Hicham, the best argument I've ever seen to get people to use Mozilla was IE.	Sep 20 03:04
cubezzz	Probably most academia gets it, at least computer ones	Sep 20 03:04
_Hicham_	yes, as IE was a real mess	Sep 20 03:04
_Hicham_	and Web Developers were also helping Mozilla	Sep 20 03:04
fewa	Those who need to get it the most are developers	Sep 20 03:04
_Hicham_	since Firefox is more standard compliant	Sep 20 03:05
fewa	and by and large, they get it	Sep 20 03:05
Will	cubezzz: most people in any technical field of academica are very likely to have had some exposure to Linux. But a lot of them use OSX instead.	Sep 20 03:05
_Hicham_	so when people watching dailymotion see a great publicity of firefox, sure they will download it	Sep 20 03:05
fewa	that is why Microsoft wants to create braindead button-clickers	Sep 20 03:05
_Hicham_	and so on	Sep 20 03:05
fewa	cause if they think, they wouldn't use Microsoft software	Sep 20 03:05
fewa	..create software through drag-and-drop	Sep 20 03:06
fewa	and a gazillion hacks	Sep 20 03:06
_Hicham_	Windows source code is full of swearing and insults	Sep 20 03:07
fewa	and have your code by standards-breaking...completely break without cookies, have unhelpful error codes	Sep 20 03:07
_Hicham_	I was really shocked when I opened the files	Sep 20 03:07
_Hicham_	almost every comment is combined with a swearing or insult or sthg	Sep 20 03:07
Will	Well 7 is on its way. If it turns out to be a mess, then like Vista before it, it should be a great advertisement for open source. But if it turns out to be even merely passable, then what?	Sep 20 03:07
fewa	_Hicham_, your tainted	Sep 20 03:07
fewa	Will, how can it?	Sep 20 03:08
_Hicham_	fewa : ?	Sep 20 03:08
fewa	Will, every CIO out there has already said they would touch it	Sep 20 03:08
Will	good then	Sep 20 03:08
fewa	Its just Vista SP2.1	Sep 20 03:08
Will	maybe the frog finally got hot enough to get uncomfortable	Sep 20 03:08
_Hicham_	Microsoft is freaking out	Sep 20 03:09
Diablo-D3	about what?	Sep 20 03:09
fewa	_Hicham_, there is a tainted theory o copyright	Sep 20 03:09
fewa	_Hicham_, its the reason for clean-room engineering	Sep 20 03:09
zlg	"if" vista was a failure, it did not seem to displace MS for FOSS, So I would not expect it to happen with Win7.	Sep 20 03:09
_Hicham_	fewa : I got the code through piratebay, it is still there i think	Sep 20 03:09
fewa	if youve seen the Windows source code you are tainted from writing free software OS code	Sep 20 03:10
fewa	..according to the theory	Sep 20 03:10
_Hicham_	fewa : haha, but I didn't like the code	Sep 20 03:10
_Hicham_	it is a set of hacks	Sep 20 03:10
fewa	see, you saw it	Sep 20 03:11
_Hicham_	of course	Sep 20 03:11
zlg	Just ready the code does not automatically assign a NDA on you.	Sep 20 03:11
Will	zlg: vista didn't collapse the dam, but it did make some large cracks in it.	Sep 20 03:11
fewa	that creates legal uncertainty	Sep 20 03:11
fewa	zlg, that is 100% besides the point	Sep 20 03:11
ThistleWeb	zlg: windows is one of the 2 flagship products MS has, their entire empire relies on both windows and office being adopted en masse by everyone	Sep 20 03:11
fewa	and you know it	Sep 20 03:11
_Hicham_	fewa : that is what mono developers say	Sep 20 03:11
ThistleWeb	they can usually rely on that income, and spend it in advance	Sep 20 03:11
fewa	_Hicham_, about what code?	Sep 20 03:12
ThistleWeb	vista was very late, and it bombed	Sep 20 03:12
ThistleWeb	they cant afford it to happen to the same flagship product TWICE in a row	Sep 20 03:12
_Hicham_	fewa : mono developers say u can't contribute if u seen .NET code	Sep 20 03:12
zlg	it does not "have to" nor is it adopted en masse	Sep 20 03:12
fewa	_Hicham_, this theory was not held in the BSD freedom/rewrite suit	Sep 20 03:12
ThistleWeb	they need windows 7 to be accpeted	Sep 20 03:12
ThistleWeb	they need retailers to only offer that, so that customers have no choice	Sep 20 03:12
fewa	or perhaps it wasnt brought up....	Sep 20 03:12
Will	Windows and Office together fund the rest of the company's ventures, most of which tend to lose money left and right.	Sep 20 03:13
ThistleWeb	they need corps to upgrade and pay huge sums of cash for no new benefits	Sep 20 03:13
ThistleWeb	they're already reeling after peeps refused vista	Sep 20 03:13
_Hicham_	Office is threatened by OpenOffice	Sep 20 03:13
_Hicham_	OpenOffice is a real threat	Sep 20 03:13
ThistleWeb	thanks to vista, more and more peeps have been alerted to having a choice	Sep 20 03:14
Will	Vista open corps eyes though.	Sep 20 03:14
fewa	to alternatives... quick!	Sep 20 03:14
ThistleWeb	they will not go back to blind obedience as they have done before	Sep 20 03:14
fewa	Bail Ship! Bail Ship!	Sep 20 03:14
Will	And what sometimes goes unmentioned is that Win7 doesn't have to prove itself against Vista. It has to prove itself against XP	Sep 20 03:14
ThistleWeb	even at normal windows prices it'll be a hard sell, specially when money is tight	Sep 20 03:15
fewa	Will, it's not about proof at all	Sep 20 03:15
Will	Even corps that are still on Windows have decided that they are comfortable on XP for now.	Sep 20 03:15
fewa	its about being useful to developers	Sep 20 03:15
zlg	thats the trouble, MS's main rival is none other than MS	Sep 20 03:15
ThistleWeb	not to mention the fact that it'll have to try and recoup some of the income they expected to get with vista	Sep 20 03:15
fewa	which it clearly is not http://www.pretentiousname.com/misc/win7_uac_whitelist2.html	Sep 20 03:15
ThistleWeb	if thats not enough of a problem for them, PC's are MUCH cheaper now, so a $200 OS tax onto the price is VERY noticable	Sep 20 03:16
fewa	Microsoft will not manage to get win32 beyond NT 5.1 (XP)	Sep 20 03:16
fewa	And they cant just keep adding anti-features and raising prices	Sep 20 03:16
ThistleWeb	and peeps have netbooks where either Linux is free, or XP is peanuts to compete	Sep 20 03:16
Will	fewa: what I mean is that a lot of companies want to stick with XP for now. Sooner or later, hardware replacement or lack of support will force them to move away from XP. So, the question to each of them is, will they move to 7 then, or will they migrate to an alternative instead.	Sep 20 03:17
ThistleWeb	for me, 2009 was the begining of the end for MS	Sep 20 03:17
fewa	Will, they will move to Linux or XP on Linux virt hosts	Sep 20 03:17
ThistleWeb	they're being assailed on all fronts, in most cases offering better products or services for free or cheaper, and the market ha bombed so peeps are forced to think about price	Sep 20 03:17
fewa	cause the Windows virtualization is laughable	Sep 20 03:18
ThistleWeb	their model is broken	Sep 20 03:18
ThistleWeb	the difference is that now a lot of competition has matured enough that it can't be dismissed	Sep 20 03:18
zlg	I wish I had a dollar for everytime I hear MS is coming to an end	Sep 20 03:19
fewa	Who wants their server will all those virtualization guests to have a remote registry? a allways-on GUI? the record for remotely-exploitable security holes?	Sep 20 03:19
ThistleWeb	MS will be a patent troll parasite business in maybe 10yrs	Sep 20 03:19
fewa	And even better: Windows has woorse hardware support than Linux	Sep 20 03:19
Will	Here's a question I'd like to hear a softie answer: Assuming XP compatibility is a necessity, what is the advantage to using Win7 and XP mode over using Linux and XP in a VM?	Sep 20 03:19
fewa	esp on high-end hardware	Sep 20 03:19
fewa	Will, absolutely none	Sep 20 03:20
ThistleWeb	with a virtual XP you can delete it, and replace it when it gets hosed	Sep 20 03:20
Will	fewa: that's why I'd like to hear a softie answer it.	Sep 20 03:20
ThistleWeb	not to mention the host OS will be safer	Sep 20 03:20
fewa	:P	Sep 20 03:20
zlg	ive not found that XP compatibility is necessary, for anything.	Sep 20 03:20
fewa	I do keep blowing you leads....	Sep 20 03:20
ThistleWeb	with windows 7 and a virtual xp, you have 2 malware magnets to try and protect	Sep 20 03:20
fewa	zlg, have you tried running cromium?	Sep 20 03:21
zlg	no, why would I	Sep 20 03:21
fewa	such a high-profile application will surely run!	Sep 20 03:21
Will	fewa ;)	Sep 20 03:21
fewa	(i think they made it work now, but I will assure you it did not work before)	Sep 20 03:22
Will	zlg: Vista, the economy situation, and netbook changed things a bit.	Sep 20 03:22
fewa	and that because Windows uses undocumented features for its internal applications	Sep 20 03:23
Will	zlg: home users might not need XP compatibility, but you never know about what kind of in-house software a company might need that may or may not work well on Vista/7	Sep 20 03:23
zlg	ive got a huge library of programs ive used with xp for some time, all of them work just as well on vista and win7. ive not found one that does not yet, not saying there are not any.	Sep 20 03:24
zlg	Will, yes true	Sep 20 03:24
fewa	Thats why chromium was incompatible: because of the anti-competitive actions of Microsoft	Sep 20 03:24
fewa	chromium ~= Google Chrome	Sep 20 03:24
fewa	in using undocumented features	Sep 20 03:24
ThistleWeb	before the economy crashed, many corps would just rubber stamp a new round of windows licences, which MS relied on. Now they have to put upgrades on hold, look for other options, and demand a much higher ROI	Sep 20 03:25
fewa	zlg, can you run IE6 natively in Windows 7?	Sep 20 03:25
zlg	again, why would I want too, can you run the latest OO.org on 2.2.15 kernel ?	Sep 20 03:25
ThistleWeb	MS have spent a fortune in getting windows 7 out, because they had no choice, but it won't save them	Sep 20 03:25
fewa	Microsoft's ActiveX lock-in seems so successful that even microsoft cant make another application that is compatible with it	Sep 20 03:25
Will	fewa -- thanks for reminding me about that ............. grr. IE6 sites. 'Nuff said.	Sep 20 03:26
fewa	Will, mainly activeX im experiences	Sep 20 03:26
fewa	not really the HTML	Sep 20 03:26
Will	Does IE even support png yet?	Sep 20 03:26
fewa	so thats not even the browser	Sep 20 03:26
_Hicham_	yes, since IE7	Sep 20 03:27
fewa	Will, yes, but only correctly in IE8	Sep 20 03:27
Will	That alone was enough to turn me against IE when I had to code a website one time.	Sep 20 03:27
ThistleWeb	dont think it does transparent png tho	Sep 20 03:27
fewa	and IE8 does not support <video> <audio> or <canvas>	Sep 20 03:27
fewa	IMHO making it obsolete before it was ever released	Sep 20 03:27
_Hicham_	in IE6, u had to get transparency with an alpha channel from microsoft	Sep 20 03:27
Will	ThistleWeb: transparency was exactly what I needed then.	Sep 20 03:27
zlg	complaining about old versions of software tells me, you have little to complain about of the newer versions ?	Sep 20 03:27
fewa	<zlg> again, why would I want too, can you run the latest OO.org on 2.2.15 kernel ?	Sep 20 03:28
fewa	This is backwards	Sep 20 03:28
Will	zlg: I don't use them.	Sep 20 03:28
fewa	I can run the very first OO.org on a 2.6.30 kernel	Sep 20 03:28
Will	And I don't do as much web dev these days.	Sep 20 03:28
zlg	I could sit here and pick holes on RH7.0 too but whats the point ?	Sep 20 03:28
fewa	zlg, problem is that people still use XP	Sep 20 03:28
cubezzz	for the record I thought windows 2.0 was slow :)	Sep 20 03:29
fewa	and Microsoft hasn't been able to give people a reason to change that	Sep 20 03:29
zlg	fewa, and why is that a problem, do you use i t?	Sep 20 03:29
fewa	nor have they been able to maintain compatibility with XP	Sep 20 03:29
fewa	so attack the age of RH7.0 is besides the point	Sep 20 03:30
ThistleWeb	there's always a reason to upgrade to the newer OS or software package, the problem MS have is that you have to give people like $300 of reasons to upgrade windows and office	Sep 20 03:30
fewa	also: I know people that still run RH8.0 and it works great	Sep 20 03:30
Will	zlg: The point is it would be nice if MS would stop using its large market share to hold back technologies. If there are 5 products in a space, and all of them have supported a feature, filetype, etc. for years, except Microsoft's product, which still doesn't, then that can hold back the other four.	Sep 20 03:30
fewa	over a year uptime	Sep 20 03:30
fewa	and only taken down to clear around it	Sep 20 03:30
ThistleWeb	that's where FOSS shines, as often the "just upgrade to the new version" is a free download	Sep 20 03:30
ThistleWeb	compared to "pay more money"	Sep 20 03:30
ThistleWeb	so there's no reason not to upgrade with FOSS	Sep 20 03:31
fewa	ThistleWeb, modern propritary software has changed models	Sep 20 03:31
fewa	expect for those holding onto dough like MS	Sep 20 03:31
fewa	think walled gardens like iTunes/iPod/iPhone/iMsick	Sep 20 03:31
ThistleWeb	it's not "is it better", it's "is it $300 better"	Sep 20 03:32
cubezzz	it's not $300 better :)	Sep 20 03:32
fewa	where they upgrade every week/month to lock out applications that interoperate	Sep 20 03:32
ThistleWeb	yeah Apple do like doing that	Sep 20 03:32
fewa	and the user doesn't even see a difference, its essentially a anti-virus upgrade where the user is the virus	Sep 20 03:32
cubezzz	does the price always go up for windows?	Sep 20 03:33
Will	Palm Pre says hi	Sep 20 03:33
fewa	and the user doing what he/she wants is the malicious behavior	Sep 20 03:33
fewa	*what he/she wants with the device he/she purchaced	Sep 20 03:33
Will	The ipod might have been awesome a few years ago compared to the rest, but IMO, these days the standard ipod (not touch) is a sheer rip-off compared to what else can be had for cheaper.	Sep 20 03:34
ThistleWeb	that's because Apple have their own workflow set out, which ensures the customer is in their revenue stream at all times. Users who step outside that flow by wanting things their own way need to be "educated"	Sep 20 03:34
cubezzz	around $200 for windows 7 in U.S. dollars	Sep 20 03:34
fewa	ThistleWeb, pretty accurace picture	Sep 20 03:34
fewa	*accurate	Sep 20 03:34
fewa	Apple is always at war with Microsoft	Sep 20 03:35
fewa	Apple is always at war with Microsoft	Sep 20 03:35
fewa	:P	Sep 20 03:35
ThistleWeb	many people learn to love the apple workflow, and buy into the lifestyle, so they dont see the barriers	Sep 20 03:35
Will	fewa: except when they unite against Linux	Sep 20 03:35
fewa	(even though they are very much aligned on their love of DRM)	Sep 20 03:35
ThistleWeb	when they do that, they choose to buy apple stuff, which all works seamlessly with other apple stuff	Sep 20 03:35
fewa	funny thing is that Apple is UNIX and used alot of GPL GNU utils	Sep 20 03:36
fewa	*uses	Sep 20 03:36
zlg	all groups and orgaisationshave "workflow" and reneducation, even foss	Sep 20 03:36
ThistleWeb	cubezzz: the windows price is one of these "how long is a piece of string" things	Sep 20 03:36
fewa	zlg, one is free association, the other coercion and frivolous lawsuits	Sep 20 03:36
Will	fewa: yeah, but you'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get some of the GNU stuff on OSX and well integrated.	Sep 20 03:37
ThistleWeb	it'll vary from edition, region and licence	Sep 20 03:37
Will	fewa: You'd think fink and macports would help. And you'd be right... sometimes.	Sep 20 03:37
ThistleWeb	many users will be volume licences, which is agreed under an NDA, so nobody outside of the meetings know	Sep 20 03:37
fewa	Will, OS X takes extensively from FreeBSD	Sep 20 03:37
zlg	fewa there is no "one and 'the other', they all do it all groups.	Sep 20 03:37
ThistleWeb	even home users dont know how much say Wallmart pay per pc	Sep 20 03:38
zlg	it's called their adgender	Sep 20 03:38
ThistleWeb	all they know is the price they pay at the till	Sep 20 03:38
ThistleWeb	for the PC including windows	Sep 20 03:38
Will	ThistleWeb: it boggles the mind why there hasn't been a law in most countries to unbundle the OS from the PC. Make them separate purchases. I think France has that.	Sep 20 03:38
zlg	most business do not make their markup public.	Sep 20 03:39
ThistleWeb	MS have powerful lobbyists to tell politicians peeps will buy it and install pirated windows	Sep 20 03:39
ThistleWeb	so the status quo is an anti-piracy thing	Sep 20 03:39
_Hicham_	you can't buy an OSless laptop	Sep 20 03:39
ThistleWeb	it's bullshit, but thats the reasoning	Sep 20 03:39
_Hicham_	no laptop is delivered without OS	Sep 20 03:40
zlg	I can here, in Aus. I can also buy the basic components of a laptop and build it myself.	Sep 20 03:40
fewa	zlg, is it right to sue someone just cause they share people can sync their iPod with other programs? http://www.eff.org/cases/odioworks-v-apple	Sep 20 03:40
zlg	I can buy "driveless" Lt's everywhere	Sep 20 03:40
ThistleWeb	any machine you build can be OS's less, the HD is just a blank HS until YOU install an OS on it	Sep 20 03:40
fewa	Will, I was alluding to _1984_ if you didn't notice	Sep 20 03:40
ThistleWeb	thats different from buying a pre-built laptop	Sep 20 03:41
zlg	fewa, it's someone's right to sue if they feel the other party is breaking the law, it's everyones right	Sep 20 03:41
zlg	even yours	Sep 20 03:41
ThistleWeb	there;s breaking the law, and breaing the eula, which may or may not be legal	Sep 20 03:41
fewa	zlg, but is it not wrong to claim copyright over sharing ways to sync their iPod with other programs?	Sep 20 03:42
ThistleWeb	even then, the big corps rely on being the big guy, and the lil guy cant afford to fight it, even if they're in the right	Sep 20 03:42
fewa	zlg, to claim that those people can no longer publish those findings?	Sep 20 03:42
fewa	zlg, that they have to censor themselves from helping out their fellow man?	Sep 20 03:42
zlg	I dont know who has copyright of what with ipods, so I dont know, nor do I care.	Sep 20 03:42
ThistleWeb	scaring the lil guy with a potentially business destroying legal bill	Sep 20 03:42
Will	fewa: Somehow I still haven't gotten around to reading that. Don't ask why. I don't know either.	Sep 20 03:42
fewa	or else they will be sued into the ground	Sep 20 03:43
zlg	but you have a right to sue if you feel you've been agreived	Sep 20 03:43
fewa	That sounds like a prior restraint on speech if you ask me.	Sep 20 03:43
ThistleWeb	when you throw your weight around enough, and people bend to your will, you get used to it, and expect it to happen every time	Sep 20 03:43
Will	ThistleWeb: I had a Dell phone sales rep grill me one time when I asked for a Windows refund prior to buying. He asked me what OS I was going to use instead. Guy had never heard of Debian, Ubuntu, or Red Hat, Was absolutely convinced that I was trying to pirate an OS.	Sep 20 03:43
Will	This was before Dell offered Ubuntu.	Sep 20 03:44
ThistleWeb	small coprs who say "no" tend to be like the lil nail sticking out of the wood, they get hammered	Sep 20 03:44
fewa	Will, just another example of Apple asserting that the DMCA gives them unlimited right to erect a walled garden and shoot intruders	Sep 20 03:44
fewa	...intruders that will ever take a seed from their garden	Sep 20 03:44
zlg	fewa it's certainly not a restraint on your legal rights.	Sep 20 03:44
fewa	zlg, its an attempt to impose restrictions on free speech	Sep 20 03:45
fewa	restricted before that person has said anything	Sep 20 03:45
zlg	why ? by allowing you to sue if you feel you need to, ?	Sep 20 03:45
zlg	fewa, explain how that works ?	Sep 20 03:45
fewa	zlg, by claiming that saying something is a copyright infringement	Sep 20 03:45
fewa	zlg, you need to read the events of the case	Sep 20 03:46
fewa	"Late last year, after BluWiki users began a discussion about making some Apple iPods and iPhones interoperate with software other than Apple’s own iTunes, Apple lawyers demanded removal of the content. In a letter to OdioWorks, the attorneys alleged that the discussions constituted copyright infringement and a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s (DMCA's) prohibition on circumventing copy protection measures. Fearing legal action	Sep 20 03:46
fewa	by Apple, OdioWorks took down the discussions from the Bluwiki site. "	Sep 20 03:46
zlg	are you saying, someone is being sued for "saying something is a copyright" ?	Sep 20 03:46
fewa	zlg, Apple demanded that original discussion be taken down from a website.	Sep 20 03:47
fewa	citing copyright, but there was nothing that apple produced on the entire site	Sep 20 03:47
zlg	and what was the outcome of the court case ?	Sep 20 03:48
fewa	Apple claimed that free speech was "a effective circumvention technique of digital restrictions management"	Sep 20 03:48
Will	fewa: well, that is kinda true...	Sep 20 03:49
fewa	Will, no its not	Sep 20 03:49
fewa	cause Apple had no copyright interest in the meta database of songs	Sep 20 03:49
fewa	and the hash value contained in it	Sep 20 03:49
*Will was being facetious		Sep 20 03:50
fewa	that was the product of the user, and was random from the songs the user had on the device	Sep 20 03:50
*fewa takes people too seriously		Sep 20 03:50
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Sep 20 03:50
Will	because free speech does tend to overthrow arbitrary restrictions.	Sep 20 03:51
fewa	this whole case and circumstance raises some public policy questions	Sep 20 03:51
fewa	should it be illegal to report the results of research you have done on devices you own?	Sep 20 03:52
Will	You can't just use the DMCA as a wide spectrum gag to silence anything you don't like being said.	Sep 20 03:52
ThistleWeb	fewa: here we get to the heart of it, you dont own them, you only licence them. They are however "sold" which is wrong	Sep 20 03:53
fewa	Will, well a fascial take of the DMCA does leave real restrictions	Sep 20 03:53
ThistleWeb	IMO anything that the makers assert any conditions of use over means they still own it	Sep 20 03:53
zlg	it's not "sold" it's licensed	Sep 20 03:54
fewa	zlg, AutoCAD v Vernor	Sep 20 03:54
fewa	and the _many_ cases that case cites	Sep 20 03:54
ThistleWeb	which means that Apple stores etc should not be allowed to list things "for sale"	Sep 20 03:54
fewa	some involving Microsoft even	Sep 20 03:54
fewa	*AutoDesk v Vernor	Sep 20 03:54
fewa	But in this case Apple had absolutely no copyright interest	Sep 20 03:55
ThistleWeb	music / video stores that sell region coded DVDs (which they all are, excpet the porn industry, porn is all region 0, playable anywhere) etc should not be allowed to class it as a sale	Sep 20 03:55
fewa	and was trying to protect a manufactured monopoly on players that work with its media player	Sep 20 03:56
fewa	ThistleWeb, because it does not fallow the first sale doctrine	Sep 20 03:56
fewa	Actually, I think they can, and fallowing the first sale doctrine	Sep 20 03:56
fewa	but there needs to be a clear disclaimer on the Cover of the case that states the limitations of the medium	Sep 20 03:57
Will	fewa: I don't know about this case, so I'm not talking about it specifically. I'm just saying that, in a situation where there is no legit copyright claim on what is being said, the DMCA shouldn't be used to take something down. "I don't like that" doesn't qualify as a copywrite claim.	Sep 20 03:57
fewa	as the Obama --> Gorden Brown incidence prooves abundentally clear, consumers are not made aware of the restriction on the products they buy, they are instead mislead and defrauded	Sep 20 03:58
fewa	Will, absolutely, a copyright claim is essential to make a DMCA anti-circumcision claim	Sep 20 03:58
zlg	most if not all consumers understand that there are restrictions of use on all their products they buy.	Sep 20 03:59
fewa	I was also pointing out that in many cases enforcement of the DMCA anti-circumcision provisions would be violations of free speech, and the government enforcement of monopolies	Sep 20 03:59
fewa	Monopolies of trade, in addition to the monopolies of copyright	Sep 20 03:59
fewa	zlg, no, most users have no idea	Sep 20 04:00
fewa	when a DVD doesn't work in another country they just assume its broken	Sep 20 04:00
zlg	fewa, no, most used have every idea, just because you say it does not make it true.	Sep 20 04:00
zlg	you buy a car, yo uknow you are not allowed to speed, or drive on the wrong side of the road.	Sep 20 04:00
zlg	you know you are not allowed to remove the breaks, or drop a supercharger on it.	Sep 20 04:01
fewa	zlg, thats obviously totally wrong	Sep 20 04:01
zlg	you have to comply with the rules of the land, everyone knows that	Sep 20 04:01
*lis` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))		Sep 20 04:01
fewa	and that conflation is completely misrepresentative	Sep 20 04:01
zlg	fewa, again, just because you say it, does not make it gospell	Sep 20 04:02
fewa	zlg, what wrong did blu-wiki do by discussing how to use another program to sync a iPod	Sep 20 04:02
fewa	????	Sep 20 04:02
fewa	answer that	Sep 20 04:02
fewa	Who could that action hurt?	Sep 20 04:02
zlg	WTF, who cares, I dont even know what your talkihn about, im not sure you do either. please, be a little less abstract	Sep 20 04:02
fewa	zlg, you made the argument that changes to a vehicle that could cause a crash should be compared to figuring out how to sync a iPod with a program that is not iTunes	Sep 20 04:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @fish_pond Life after #secularism -- By Nizar Ahmed http://bit.ly/f5smg		Sep 20 04:03
fewa	the difference is that noone can get injured in publishing information on how to sync a iPod with an alternative media program	Sep 20 04:04
zlg	um, fewa, no I did not, I said consumers are generally aware of the restrictions on the products they buy.	Sep 20 04:04
fewa	<zlg> you know you are not allowed to remove the breaks, or drop a supercharger on it.	Sep 20 04:04
zlg	and you fire off about dlue wicki and iPods, WTF, ?	Sep 20 04:05
fewa	zlg, because that is the exact comparison you are making	Sep 20 04:05
zlg	yes, thats right, you are not allowed to do that, and maintain the care legally on the road.	Sep 20 04:05
Will	Easy way out is just don't buy an ipod or use itunes.	Sep 20 04:06
zlg	sure you can do what you like and bash around your backyard, but to comply with the law, to LEGALLY use your car for it's intended purpose you cannot _CANNOT_ do such modifications	Sep 20 04:06
fewa	you think that breaking the DMCA by publishing information on how to use differn't programs, or make a DVD work on another operating system, is somehow comparable to doing dangerous alterations to an automobile	Sep 20 04:06
Will	automotive laws are there to keep motorists safe. This has nothing to do with safety	Sep 20 04:07
fewa	But this is simply not true	Sep 20 04:07
zlg	you can buy a knife, but you know that you are not allowed to do what you like with that knife becaseu you paid for it. there are laws (and morals) to stop you.,	Sep 20 04:08
Will	zlg: again, you are trying to take it into an argument about personal safety	Sep 20 04:08
fewa	zlg, is it against your morals to publish information on how you can sync a iPod with a program other than iTunes?	Sep 20 04:09
fewa	cause it seems to me that you are making a highly tenacious argument	Sep 20 04:09
zlg	If a product does not do what I want it to do, I do not buy that product.	Sep 20 04:09
fewa	zlg, but is it against your morals?	Sep 20 04:09
fewa	zlg, as in: should the Government step in and prevent people that are not you, from doing it?	Sep 20 04:10
zlg	so I could not give a flying figleaf about ipods or whatever else you're talking about, and I wonder i fyou dont like them, do you use them ? or just complain about them.,	Sep 20 04:10
fewa	zlg, you didn't answer my question	Sep 20 04:10
zlg	yes, I did, it was "I DONT CARE" about some weard abstract thing about iPods, I dont have an iPod so why the F#$@ would I care about them ?	Sep 20 04:11
Will	(correct me if I'm wrong) things an ipod does not have that some players 1/3 the price do have: voice recording, radio, ability to sync with programs besides itunes, ogg and flac support, ability to delete songs from the player without syncing to a music program.	Sep 20 04:11
fewa	zlg, should the Government prevent others from publishing research on a file structure in the iPod?	Sep 20 04:11
zlg	again, I would really love to want to help you fewa	Sep 20 04:11
fewa	zlg, what are you talking about?	Sep 20 04:12
Will	Oh, one more thing: SD card expansion	Sep 20 04:12
zlg	think about it	Sep 20 04:12
fewa	zlg, you clearly stated a position, and now you are sulking away from it	Sep 20 04:12
zlg	im not sulking away from anying, I just dont give a fU%K about iPods	Sep 20 04:12
zlg	never had one,	Sep 20 04:12
zlg	never want one	Sep 20 04:13
zlg	will never own one	Sep 20 04:13
zlg	so dont ask me about them because I just dont care.	Sep 20 04:13
fewa	zlg, well you obviously care alot about trying to make it seem reasonable that the Government has a legitimate reason to regulate your study of one.	Sep 20 04:13
zlg	again, do you understand what "I dont care" means ?	Sep 20 04:14
fewa	zlg, if you didn't care you wouldn't have made that long arduous argument	Sep 20 04:15
zlg	my government has not done that, if you're has get a new one then	Sep 20 04:15
zlg	I dont care about ipods is what I said.	Sep 20 04:15
fewa	zlg, your government does	Sep 20 04:15
fewa	or at least the United States government has	Sep 20 04:15
zlg	what government is tha t?	Sep 20 04:15
*Will doesn't really care about ipods either.		Sep 20 04:16
zlg	well you'll be surprised that the US government is not the world government	Sep 20 04:16
fewa	zlg, Microsoft seems to think it is	Sep 20 04:16
fewa	just look at the letter they write people	Sep 20 04:16
zlg	I dont give a flying figleaf about microsoft either	Sep 20 04:17
fewa	https://static.thepiratebay.org/ms-loveletter.txt	Sep 20 04:17
fewa	personally I don't see why people use the things at all	Sep 20 04:21
fewa	mobile music players	Sep 20 04:21
Will	jogging is one good use for them	Sep 20 04:22
fewa	but I don't see why the government should step in and say how I can use my device	Sep 20 04:22
Will	or just gym in general sometimes	Sep 20 04:22
fewa	or anybodies device	Sep 20 04:22
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zlg	thats what I would have said, it's probably good for people who like to listen to things when they are you know ... mobile :)	Sep 20 04:22
Will	probably good for audiobooks too.	Sep 20 04:24
flatfish	nctcp %s VERSION mIRC 5.91 (16 bit) for Microsoft © Windows For WorkGroups 3.11®	Sep 20 04:24
flatfish	Why does Linux have such a dismal desktop market share even after 15+ years of being free?	Sep 20 04:26
zlg	good question, probably because its not all about it being free, other factors are involved	Sep 20 04:28
flatfish	ok..but Vista sucked, we all agree.. WinMe suckes...we all agree...let's not even talk about Bob...so why can't free Linux gain some market?	Sep 20 04:29
Will	marketing, not really trying until a few years ago, and possibly industry collusion.	Sep 20 04:29
flatfish	Nahhhh...Free trumps it all....but it has to be free and good	Sep 20 04:29
Will	but that said... <_< ... >_> ... troll question??	Sep 20 04:30
flatfish	Yea...anything that asks the obvious about Linux is a troll question...how about addressing the points...	Sep 20 04:30
zlg	exactly, and secure, and accountable and reliable, and preferably well supported.	Sep 20 04:30
Will	ok flatfish: how can people know whether it is good or not if they haven't used it	Sep 20 04:30
flatfish	I'll give Linux secure, but only becuase the black hats haven't deemed it a target yet, for desktops...	Sep 20 04:31
zlg	I know a Lambogini is a good car, but I have not driven one.	Sep 20 04:31
_Hicham_	heh	Sep 20 04:31
flatfish	Free...how about netbooks...Linux was 1st...what happened when Windows versions were released?	Sep 20 04:32
_Hicham_	MS pressure babe	Sep 20 04:32
flatfish	I have driven a Lamb....highly over rated....FWIW I was doing 70mph and never got out of 2nd gear :)	Sep 20 04:32
Will	flatfish: people have a hard time buying preinstalled Linux if the stores refuse to carry it	Sep 20 04:32
_Hicham_	MS was bribing the vendors of course	Sep 20 04:33
flatfish	re:preinstalled...true...but the netbook, Walmart, Dell, MSI, Vono something or other have tried and faild	Sep 20 04:33
flatfish	Bribing?	Sep 20 04:33
_Hicham_	failed ?	Sep 20 04:33
flatfish	Come on already,,,,,,it;s called marketing...	Sep 20 04:33
Will	Someone fish up that Walmart document from BN's archives	Sep 20 04:33
flatfish	IBM, GM, Chrysler, etc all do it.	Sep 20 04:34
Will	also, it helps when the people selling Linux put decent distros on it, not half broken ones	Sep 20 04:34
zlg	most expensive car ive driven was a BMW M1 or something, cost A$120,000 at the same time I just spent $80 on my house	Sep 20 04:34
flatfish	Think about this:why do you think the absolute worst (for your kids) cereals are at eye leve, for a kid, in the market?	Sep 20 04:34
flatfish	Nice car!!!!!!	Sep 20 04:34
flatfish	Look, despite what you may believe, I don't hate Linux, I'm just telling it like it is	Sep 20 04:35
flatfish	Give away a free iPod clone and you will have a riot	Sep 20 04:36
flatfish	Give away Linux and nobody will be there	Sep 20 04:36
flatfish	Figure out why, and Linux may get somewhere on the desktop/.	Sep 20 04:36
Will	possibly of interest: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/22/microsoft-taskforce-vs-walmart-linux/	Sep 20 04:36
flatfish	Walmart is an IBM owned account....I have a friend who works the account..Talk to IBM	Sep 20 04:37
flatfish	In fact IBM runs Walmart's helpdesk...	Sep 20 04:37
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zlg	there is a price/performance/quality/support ratio that has to be correctly balanced for a product to fly.	Sep 20 04:38
Will	flatfish: ipods aren't that special as mp3 players go, but they are backed by tons of hype and marketing. Linux isn't at the moment.	Sep 20 04:38
flatfish	Bottom line: Free is only good when Free is better or at least close to what is commercial	Sep 20 04:38
Will	Free is only good when people think free is better or at least close to what they think commercial is	Sep 20 04:39
zlg	exactly	Sep 20 04:39
flatfish	Having used iPods and other devices, overall, support (car audio, holders, interfaces etc) the iPod kills the competition.	Sep 20 04:39
flatfish	it's not even close.	Sep 20 04:39
zlg	there is a stron argument for paying programmers to give them incentive to create commercal quality and therefore saleable product.	Sep 20 04:39
Will	flatfish: I'll repeat this post from before you logged in: (correct me if I'm wrong) things an ipod does not have that some players 1/3 the price do have: voice recording, radio, ability to sync with programs besides itunes, ogg and flac support, ability to delete songs from the player without syncing to a music program, SD card expansion.	Sep 20 04:40
zlg	my phone does all that except mabey ogg and flak	Sep 20 04:41
zlg	which I dont or have never used	Sep 20 04:41
Will	zlg: Red Hat gets paid.	Sep 20 04:41
zlg	they also dont sell software, the sell maintenance and support contracts.	Sep 20 04:42
flatfish	so how do u explain prgrammers that give their hard work away only to see IBM profit off it?	Sep 20 04:42
flatfish	I think they are fools	Sep 20 04:42
Will	that's kind of a general question. The answer could change depending on the situation.	Sep 20 04:43
cubezzz	lots of people donate their time for various reasons	Sep 20 04:43
zlg	there is a saying about "if you pay peanuts, you get monkies"	Sep 20 04:43
flatfish	Look, I think Linux is good, very good in fact, but until you guys link together and kill the fragmentation you are dead in the water	Sep 20 04:43
flatfish	I like the peanuts theory!!!!	Sep 20 04:44
Will	How much fragmentation is there really, though, across maybe the top 3 distros?	Sep 20 04:44
Will	default wallpaper doesn't count	Sep 20 04:44
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flatfish	It doesn't matter....10 years ago to a noob Linux was Redhat. Today it's Ubuntu. Even the most zealto Linux fan will admit that Ubunt, will good, is really not the best distro in terms of qualit.	Sep 20 04:46
flatfish	What if we got the Ubuntu, PCLOS, Mepis etc developers together and created a totally new killer distro?	Sep 20 04:47
*twitter ignores flatfish		Sep 20 04:47
Will	zlg: good thing Linux people don't all get paid peanuts then: http://www.lifeinfozone.com/education-training/linux-profession-with-linux-certification-top-paying-job-in-us/	Sep 20 04:47
twitter	zlg is Mutex	Sep 20 04:47
flatfish	Yea twatter...u are afraid of the truth....How are those 1000's of nyms doing on /. ?	Sep 20 04:47
Will	flatfish: ok, question is, how would it differ from the Ubuntu/Red Hat/Mandriva of today?	Sep 20 04:48
flatfish	It would work...	Sep 20 04:48
zlg	twittler, ?? again, you only seem to wakeup if someone says something you dont agree with.	Sep 20 04:48
flatfish	As for Linux jobs, I advise everyone to learn Linux, it will increase your worth	Sep 20 04:49
Will	flatfish: more specfically?	Sep 20 04:49
flatfish	Twatter is a moron....	Sep 20 04:49
flatfish	I am being resonable, no trolling, just asking	Sep 20 04:49
Will	i.e. what doesn't work. If we are going to improve, we need to zero in on specifics.	Sep 20 04:49
flatfish	Mandriva tries to sell the user CODECS....bad, very bad	Sep 20 04:50
Will	Mint includes them preinstalled	Sep 20 04:50
zlg	or you can just accuse them of trolling or being a ??/ Mutex as opposed to facing you know, reality.	Sep 20 04:51
flatfish	Assuming you can get by the Mint partiioner...it has problems with big systems and multiple ddrives	Sep 20 04:51
flatfish	I like Mint though...	Sep 20 04:51
Will	flatfish: I've never used a Linux installer to partition. I do that with PartedMagic	Sep 20 04:51
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flatfish	I'm not Mutex....Roy can verify this.,.,.I give Roy credit for letting me speak...he's kool that way..	Sep 20 04:51
Will	I used to do it with PartionMagic until I found out about PartedMagic	Sep 20 04:51
DaemonFC	schestowitz, http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Microsoft-Lawsuit-Shows-Malicious-Advertising-A-Growing-Issue-295913/	Sep 20 04:52
flatfish	PM totally killed a drive for me....I hate it...	Sep 20 04:52
Will	ymmv	Sep 20 04:52
flatfish	I suppose	Sep 20 04:52
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Will	I've never had problems with PartedMagic.	Sep 20 04:52
flatfish	Lots of people use and like it	Sep 20 04:52
DaemonFC	it's not just IE users who are at risk, thinks like Windows Live Messenger use the IE rendering engine to display ads	Sep 20 04:52
DaemonFC	*things	Sep 20 04:53
cubezzz	I've never had problems with linux fdisk	Sep 20 04:53
flatfish	I avoide IE...I use FF	Sep 20 04:53
Will	I just like partitioning with a live system in ram. Not mounted on any filesystem.	Sep 20 04:53
flatfish	I'm off to sleep...nice chatting with ya'll///GN	Sep 20 04:54
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DaemonFC	that's why I put Microsoft's ad servers in the hosts file resolving to 127.0.0.1 and set IE's sliders all to high	Sep 20 04:55
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DaemonFC	and don't keep any plugins installed in it	Sep 20 04:55
*Will must resist urge to make crack about "malicious advertising, Microsoft, and Best Buy"		Sep 20 04:55
DaemonFC	malware spreaders are using advertisements on legit websites to pwn Internet Explorer users	Sep 20 04:56
DaemonFC	IE 8 is still swiss cheese near as I can tell	Sep 20 04:56
DaemonFC	they just got rid of a lot of the most obscene problems	Sep 20 04:56
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DaemonFC	they keep refusing to patch problems on the Windows Vista and 7 versions because they claim UAC takes care of the problems	Sep 20 04:57
DaemonFC	not all users have UAC on, so what then?	Sep 20 04:57
cubezzz	this is making me nostalgic for text based internet	Sep 20 04:57
DaemonFC	the Windows XP version of IE 8 gets patched 8-12 times a month	Sep 20 04:58
DaemonFC	that's not any improvement over IE 6	Sep 20 04:58
zlg	DaemonFC and how many patches PER HOUR does Linux Torvalds recieve ?	Sep 20 04:59
cubezzz	Linus :)	Sep 20 04:59
DaemonFC	I can't even imagine how anyone would put up with MSIE	Sep 20 04:59
zlg	Yes, Linus*	Sep 20 04:59
DaemonFC	even MS MVPs recommend avoiding it	Sep 20 04:59
cubezzz	ok one question DaemonFC	Sep 20 04:59
cubezzz	why do you use IE at all?	Sep 20 05:00
DaemonFC	cubezzz, Directly? I don't.	Sep 20 05:00
DaemonFC	but a lot of applications embed it	Sep 20 05:00
DaemonFC	Windows Live Messenger, Winamp, etc	Sep 20 05:01
DaemonFC	MS Office has its own rendering engine now	Sep 20 05:01
DaemonFC	so does Expression Web	Sep 20 05:01
DaemonFC	Microsoft is avoiding using the IE engine in a lot of their other products	Sep 20 05:02
cubezzz	after what happened with the EU Commission you would think that IE would be separate from the rest of windows	Sep 20 05:03
DaemonFC	cubezzz, I don't think that IE will live on much longer using the Trident Engine	Sep 20 05:03
DaemonFC	I'd imagine that it will be overhauled in IE 9 or 10	Sep 20 05:04
DaemonFC	it's getting old and it never performed well	Sep 20 05:04
Will	zlg: I think someone made the same Linus/Linux typo on a kernel dev mailing list one time. Led to a joke that rumors that Mr. Torvalds actually upgrades himself were true.	Sep 20 05:05
zlg	licky the HURD did not get up, or it would have been "Richardux"	Sep 20 05:06
zlg	and GNU/GNU	Sep 20 05:07
Will	ah Hurd. With Linux (kernel) around, I wonder if it will ever see the light of day.	Sep 20 05:07
Will	But I bet when it does, it will run Duke Nukem Forever!	Sep 20 05:07
zlg	considering how much code stallman does (NOT) product it's a still born	Sep 20 05:08
cubezzz	there's Hurd LiveCD if you're curious	Sep 20 05:09
cubezzz	but...	Sep 20 05:09
cubezzz	does not support USB devices, PCMCIA cards or sound cards	Sep 20 05:09
twitter	A dear john letter for Slashdot http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/237473	Sep 20 05:10
twitter	Debian Hurd does not do USB?	Sep 20 05:11
cubezzz	ok, what I'm looking at is old: 20051117	Sep 20 05:11
zlg	twitter bye !	Sep 20 05:12
DaemonFC	Duke Nukem Forever has only been in production since 1997, right?	Sep 20 05:13
DaemonFC	HURD has been since 1984	Sep 20 05:13
cubezzz	you can download Hurd though	Sep 20 05:13
cubezzz	I wouldn't compare it to DNF	Sep 20 05:14
DaemonFC	you can download HURD, can't do much with it though	Sep 20 05:18
Will	I could be wrong here, but it seems that things that stay in development for significantly longer than the average dev time for a kind of product tend to either be extraordinarily great (Half-Life 2), or a spectacular failure (Vista)	Sep 20 05:19
DaemonFC	Will, I got ahold of most of the pre-Vista builds of "Longhorn" and it was actually not bad til after the "reset" when all kinds of bloat started getting tacked onto it	Sep 20 05:21
DaemonFC	I was not thrilled with how much RAM DWM wanted in Vista either	Sep 20 05:21
Will	DaemonFC: the reset was probably what killed it.	Sep 20 05:21
Will	Ok, I haven't kept up with HURD, nor do I have any skin in the project, but my guess is that there probably isn't much developer enthusiasm for getting HURD off the ground when the energy could be better spent improving the existing, viable, and proven open source kernel that we already have.	Sep 20 05:22
DaemonFC	Where things actually went wrong for Vista was in Windows XP	Sep 20 05:23
DaemonFC	they should have come up with a way to run you as a normal user in XP	Sep 20 05:24
DaemonFC	and not have a system where you couldn't do anything, including changing the clock	Sep 20 05:24
Will	DaemonFC: OSX does the admin by default thing too, oddly enough.	Sep 20 05:24
DaemonFC	they should have had UAC starting in XP	Sep 20 05:24
DaemonFC	yeah, but in OS X, the administrator is pretty much a normal user with sudo access though	Sep 20 05:25
DaemonFC	if I recall correctly	Sep 20 05:25
DaemonFC	the actual root account is locked	Sep 20 05:25
DaemonFC	Ubuntu pretty much does the same thing	Sep 20 05:25
Will	DaemonFC: XP's long reign didn't help either. Consumer Inertia works great for Microsoft, until it works against it.	Sep 20 05:26
zlg	if it works against them	Sep 20 05:26
DaemonFC	well, just having everything on XP running as Administrator creates a security nightmare	Sep 20 05:26
DaemonFC	because a bug anywhere can enable a remote exploit	Sep 20 05:26
Will	Did I say XP's long reign _didn't_ (past tense). Oops. My mistake. XP's long reign doesn't. There. Fixed.	Sep 20 05:27
zlg	xI would guess running Linux in Su would cause similar problems	Sep 20 05:27
Will	zlg: right. Which is why it is strongly discouraged and never allowed by default.	Sep 20 05:27
DaemonFC	as long as XP is used by a big chunk of the market, even things like Firefox will have to be designed in such a way that makes them XP compatible	Sep 20 05:27
cubezzz	Will, it is sometimes	Sep 20 05:28
DaemonFC	so Firefox 4 might even have to be designed around a 10 year old (by then) OS	Sep 20 05:28
cubezzz	embedix for example	Sep 20 05:28
Will	didn't know about that	Sep 20 05:28
Will	DaemonFC: only the Windows version of Firefox	Sep 20 05:29
DaemonFC	meh, Firefox is really just a Windows program with a second rate port to Linux	Sep 20 05:29
DaemonFC	it's not just your imagination if the Windows version smokes the Linux one	Sep 20 05:30
zlg	you cant blame someone who wants to be popular targetting the largest market.	Sep 20 05:30
Will	the only real difference I've noticed is flash, which is a well known Adobe problem.	Sep 20 05:30
DaemonFC	Firefox 3.5 on Windows is still a little over 15-20% faster than the Linux versions, overall	Sep 20 05:30
DaemonFC	it's why these Linux distributions shouldn't be shipping Firefox or Gecko-based browsers	Sep 20 05:31
zlg	all my browsers are far faster than my net connection.	Sep 20 05:31
DaemonFC	they should be concentrating on Webkit	Sep 20 05:31
cubezzz	Firefox was descended from Mozilla	Sep 20 05:31
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cubezzz	cross-platform	Sep 20 05:32
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DaemonFC	yeah, just because it builds on a platform doesn't mean it's optimized for that platform	Sep 20 05:32
DaemonFC	Firefox is very different on each platform	Sep 20 05:32
_Hicham_	DaemonFC the computer scientist	Sep 20 05:33
zlg	at least on this he's right	Sep 20 05:33
_Hicham_	why do u talk about Firefox since u hate it?	Sep 20 05:33
_Hicham_	troll ?	Sep 20 05:33
zlg	_Hicham_ why do you talk about MS if you hate them ?	Sep 20 05:33
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_Hicham_	zlg : I try not to talk about MS	Sep 20 05:34
Will	I've never benchmarked them. I can say one thing that any browser will need to compete well against Firefox: Adblock.	Sep 20 05:34
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_Hicham_	since we have choice	Sep 20 05:34
_Hicham_	Will : Google Chrome have AdSweep	Sep 20 05:35
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cubezzz	well if you trace things back you will see everyone copied NCSA Mosaic	Sep 20 05:35
cubezzz	Unix based	Sep 20 05:35
Will	Hicham: If it works, then good enough.	Sep 20 05:35
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_Hicham_	But no browser compare to Firefox in functionality	Sep 20 05:35
cubezzz	and AmigaDOS and WIndows and etc etc	Sep 20 05:36
_Hicham_	really, no browser can compare to it in that field	Sep 20 05:36
_Hicham_	other browser might be more speedy, more responsive	Sep 20 05:36
_Hicham_	but not fully functional as firefox	Sep 20 05:36
cubezzz	lynx is faster than all of them	Sep 20 05:36
Will	but Firefox is the all-arounder.	Sep 20 05:36
_Hicham_	u can optimize firefox	Sep 20 05:37
_Hicham_	but u will get a lot of segfaults	Sep 20 05:37
zlg	cant change font size	Sep 20 05:37
_Hicham_	zlg : where ?	Sep 20 05:37
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zlg	in FF	Sep 20 05:37
_Hicham_	zlg : ?	Sep 20 05:37
_Hicham_	are u talking seriously ?	Sep 20 05:37
Will	I can	Sep 20 05:37
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zlg	sorry I was just going by what Roy Swestowitz said the other day. my bad.	Sep 20 05:38
Will	ctrl+, ctrl-	Sep 20 05:38
Will	or cmd if on OSX	Sep 20 05:38
zlg	tell it to the Roy	Sep 20 05:38
Will	ctrl-0 to go to default size	Sep 20 05:38
zlg	cool,	Sep 20 05:38
Will	and in the preferences menu, you can change font and font size	Sep 20 05:39
_Hicham_	zlg : u don't use FF ?	Sep 20 05:39
Will	and have your font settings override the website font settings	Sep 20 05:39
zlg	I have it on here, but I tend not to bother with it, It has nothing I need	Sep 20 05:39
_Hicham_	ah, what do u use ?	Sep 20 05:39
zlg	some version of ie, but i would have to look up what one, i dont find it an issue.	Sep 20 05:40
*Will wonders what zlg sees in IE anymore.		Sep 20 05:40
_Hicham_	zlg : u don't use linux at all ?	Sep 20 05:40
zlg	what do I see it, it, um everything I look at	Sep 20 05:41
Will	?	Sep 20 05:41
_Hicham_	or ur using IE with wine ?	Sep 20 05:41
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zlg	Ive been using windows and alternative OS's for 30 + years,	Sep 20 05:41
_Hicham_	and u settled down for Windows ?	Sep 20 05:42
Will	it's just that its rare to see someone that knows about more than one browser that sticks with IE.	Sep 20 05:42
zlg	Ive used Unix and Linux and VMS, and mickbug, pipbug, amstrados, AmigaOS for a long long time.	Sep 20 05:42
zlg	to the point where I dont care as long as it works.	Sep 20 05:42
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zlg	I used to use FF heaps, and it was good, but the functions I used to use I no longer use.	Sep 20 05:43
_Hicham_	interesting theory	Sep 20 05:43
cubezzz	well I want source code	Sep 20 05:43
cubezzz	I never had the source code for anything except Linux and Minix	Sep 20 05:44
ziggyfish	hello all	Sep 20 05:44
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zlg	I used linux for years and years, and never did i have a requirement to look at or modify the source code.	Sep 20 05:44
_Hicham_	zlg : never ?	Sep 20 05:44
zlg	so "FOR ME" there was no point in having that "feature"	Sep 20 05:44
zlg	yes, NEVER	Sep 20 05:44
cubezzz	well everyone is different but...	Sep 20 05:44
_Hicham_	I like to have source code	Sep 20 05:45
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_Hicham_	and modify it for my needs	Sep 20 05:45
cubezzz	I think it's a big deal to have OS code and driver code	Sep 20 05:45
ziggyfish	_Hicham_: me too	Sep 20 05:45
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cubezzz	I've had all sorts of access to driver code, but not very much OS code	Sep 20 05:45
zlg	ok how often do you view and modify the source code ?	Sep 20 05:45
cubezzz	SCO Unix showed me some though	Sep 20 05:46
DaemonFC	I'm thinking of setting up a fan club	Sep 20 05:46
cubezzz	zlg: I spent probably 6 hours a week looking at drivers	Sep 20 05:46
_Hicham_	zlg : everytime I have a problem at least	Sep 20 05:46
DaemonFC	_Hicham_ can be the President and Treasurer	Sep 20 05:46
zlg	and you have problems often ?	Sep 20 05:46
cubezzz	modded the brook tree stuff for tv tuners	Sep 20 05:46
ziggyfish	zig when I use new software, I always like to see the implementation	Sep 20 05:47
_Hicham_	zlg : with major updates	Sep 20 05:47
cubezzz	well hp 4470c was a huge problem	Sep 20 05:47
zlg	ok	Sep 20 05:47
cubezzz	I don't have big problems often	Sep 20 05:47
cubezzz	I modded mplayer	Sep 20 05:47
_Hicham_	zlg : If u are living on the edge, u will need source code	Sep 20 05:47
Will	zlg: I haven't done much tinkering with Linux source code. But the fact that it is open lets me know that there's little chance that any shenanigans were hidden in there.	Sep 20 05:47
Will	or else they would be found and stripped out	Sep 20 05:48
cubezzz	Will, well you can compile it :)	Sep 20 05:48
_Hicham_	zlg : ah, and I forgot, optimization	Sep 20 05:48
cubezzz	you can't do that on many 'mainstream' OS	Sep 20 05:48
_Hicham_	optimization is really a big deal	Sep 20 05:48
zlg	allthough major flaws still remain undetected for years, with the source code open. If thats a "failsafe" it's not doing so well	Sep 20 05:49
_Hicham_	u can optimize software for ur platform	Sep 20 05:49
DaemonFC	What's funny with those Bing ads is that they're describing their own search results wit hthe mindless and irrelevant chatter	Sep 20 05:49
_Hicham_	and ur machine	Sep 20 05:49
Will	I can compile source code. And have on some big stuff before.	Sep 20 05:49
cubezzz	right now I am porting stuff to embedix	Sep 20 05:49
_Hicham_	zlg : major flaws ?	Sep 20 05:49
zlg	yes, like that SSH one just recently	Sep 20 05:49
zlg	pretty major	Sep 20 05:50
_Hicham_	are u talking about that debian stuff ?	Sep 20 05:50
Will	wasn't that a debian patch on vanilla ssh that did it?	Sep 20 05:50
_Hicham_	zlg : is that what u r talking about ?	Sep 20 05:51
zlg	ill go find the link	Sep 20 05:51
ziggyfish_	DaemonFC, the funny thing is, Bing looks to me like a site for me to buy things and not a site for researching information	Sep 20 05:51
cubezzz	The flaw was the removal of most of the entropy (randomness) from the key generation process	Sep 20 05:51
cubezzz	it was fixed btw	Sep 20 05:51
ziggyfish_	where as Google looks like a site for searching	Sep 20 05:51
zlg	it was fixed when it was found, but how long (in years) was it undetected, or detected and exploited until someone at SUN found it ?	Sep 20 05:52
cubezzz	I don't think I've ever had an ssh problem myself	Sep 20 05:52
ziggyfish_	zlg, this sound like FUD?	Sep 20 05:52
Will	typing in random searches that are unflattering to MS in Bing and Google and then comparing results can be amusing sometimes.	Sep 20 05:52
cubezzz	ok, well let me just say on my machines you can only ssh in from one user account and no one whos what that is :)	Sep 20 05:53
_Hicham_	zlg : this is not a major issue	Sep 20 05:53
cubezzz	so we are careful	Sep 20 05:53
Will	of course, I'm sure we can also find Windows flaws that stretch back several releases.	Sep 20 05:53
_Hicham_	it affected Debian based distros	Sep 20 05:53
_Hicham_	zlg : it is not upstream fault	Sep 20 05:53
cubezzz	I don't even turn sshd on unless I'm away from the server's physical location	Sep 20 05:54
_Hicham_	zlg : it is debian fault, and more precisely, the developer's fault	Sep 20 05:54
ziggyfish_	Will, their has been known flaws that haven't been fixed for years	Sep 20 05:54
cubezzz	ok, so you have problems either way	Sep 20 05:54
cubezzz	which one do you really want, no code or with code?	Sep 20 05:54
ziggyfish_	cubezzz, I would want the code, so I can see for myself	Sep 20 05:55
cubezzz	excellent :)	Sep 20 05:55
zlg	it does not seem to make alot of difference, code or no code the bugs and flaws are still there and in numbers.	Sep 20 05:56
cubezzz	zlg: I fix bugs, it's part of my job(s)	Sep 20 05:56
zlg	good for you.	Sep 20 05:56
zlg	so it's in your interest that code is produced with bugs ?	Sep 20 05:57
ziggyfish_	zlg, the difference is I can fixed them with the source code, without I can't	Sep 20 05:57
cubezzz	even reading the comments is helpful for that matter	Sep 20 05:58
zlg	you can fix them with the source code if you are an experienced programmer and have nothing better to do, like make a living, or actually use the App you want to make a living	Sep 20 05:58
ziggyfish_	zlg, but without the source code, even if your an experienced programmer, you have to wait until it is fully expoited or wait until the company produces the fix	Sep 20 06:00
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zlg	or use something that works.	Sep 20 06:00
ziggyfish_	zlg, with the source code you could always hire someone to fix it for you	Sep 20 06:00
Will	come to think of it, zlg, what is your point on that?	Sep 20 06:01
ziggyfish_	zlg, that's why I use Linux, it just works	Sep 20 06:01
zlg	If im writing a letter I want to flash up a wordprocessor and start typing, I dont want to be frigging with compilers or source code to write a damn letter.	Sep 20 06:01
Will	There are other benefits of open source	Sep 20 06:01
Will	you don't have to mess with compilers to write a letter	Sep 20 06:01
zlg	like what ?	Sep 20 06:01
ziggyfish_	zlg, FUD	Sep 20 06:01
zlg	oh wait, someone does not like what im saying, you now going to call me a troll.	Sep 20 06:02
Will	Flexibility, knowing that it won't go under if a company goes under, benefiting from a wider developer pool than any one company can provide.	Sep 20 06:02
zlg	your word for anyone with a different opinion to yours?	Sep 20 06:02
ziggyfish_	zlg, I've never had to compile anything for the last 3 years, and even then it was something from a site that only cared about windows	Sep 20 06:02
cubezzz	ahem porting?	Sep 20 06:02
Will	zlg: no, but they will call you out when you say things that aren't true, like needing a compiler to write an office document.	Sep 20 06:02
zlg	so for you ziggy having the source code is pointless, fair enough	Sep 20 06:03
cubezzz	ok, well if you don't compile you don't compile	Sep 20 06:03
zlg	you need a compiler to fix the code of the wordprocessor if you have to modify to code to get it to work, IS WHAT i said.	Sep 20 06:03
cubezzz	the only word processor-like entity I ever compiled was vim and a early hexediter which doesn't count	Sep 20 06:04
ziggyfish_	zlg, no, having the source code means that I know that if I an addition to the software I can compile it myself	Sep 20 06:04
ziggyfish_	zlg, same with non-opensource software, right?	Sep 20 06:05
cubezzz	I don't enjoy fixing bugs in other people's code btw	Sep 20 06:05
zlg	yes, someone else was saying they needed the source to fix problems, I was just stating that rather than spending time "fixing problems" with the source code, I would rather be doing the thing I entended to do in the first place	Sep 20 06:05
cubezzz	yes, when necessary	Sep 20 06:05
Will	zlg: well, what is your point? In a proprietary word processor, if thre are bugs, you are at the companies mercy if you want the bugs fixed, and you might have to pay for the bugfix. With an open source wordprocessor, if a bug is found you can be in the same position--minus having to pay for the bugfix--if you'd like.	Sep 20 06:05
ziggyfish_	zlg, you could always work around the error	Sep 20 06:05
Will	But you do have the option of fixing it if you want. Or improving it.	Sep 20 06:06
cubezzz	there are bugs in closed source things, like WP for MS DOS for example	Sep 20 06:06
zlg	if you are not an experienced programmer with lots of time on your hands a problem with OO will bring you down just as quick	Sep 20 06:06
cubezzz	drivers and porting for me mostly	Sep 20 06:07
ziggyfish_	zlg, work around it, or better yet, report the error to one of the developers currently working on it.	Sep 20 06:07
cubezzz	probably wouldn't touch OO or browser	Sep 20 06:07
zlg	and in the mean time, if it does not do what you want ?	Sep 20 06:07
zlg	you sit and do nothing ?	Sep 20 06:07
Will	zlg: A problem with Word will bring you down regardless of your programming skills. And your chances of being able to talk to an OO dev are much better than your chances of contacting a Word dev.	Sep 20 06:08
ziggyfish_	zlg, so what problem do you have that you can't get around, maybe I can help	Sep 20 06:09
zlg	mabey, but if you are not an experienced programmer (guru) with lots of time on your hands having the code is pointless.	Sep 20 06:09
zlg	None, everthing I have works just as I expect it too.	Sep 20 06:09
zlg	as it should	Sep 20 06:09
Will	zlg: what you haven't yet made clear to me is how open source puts you in a _worse_ position than proprietary does	Sep 20 06:09
zlg	otherwise I would use something else , that does work	Sep 20 06:09
ziggyfish_	zlg, if I was blind, having a TV would be pointless	Sep 20 06:09
cubezzz	ok, let's assume you are a programmer for a second	Sep 20 06:10
cubezzz	you're trying to learn stuff and you see something interesting, it could be anything	Sep 20 06:10
cubezzz	ok, so you.....	Sep 20 06:10
cubezzz	check out the source code, yay	Sep 20 06:10
Will	cubezzz is bringing an advantage to open source I forgot to mention	Sep 20 06:11
cubezzz	or you're adding or porting something	Sep 20 06:11
zlg	open source puts me in a worse position than proprietary code as most of the applications I use work, no sorry ALL of my apps work.	Sep 20 06:11
Will	the learning/teaching factor	Sep 20 06:11
Will	zlg: and the open source ones don't work?	Sep 20 06:11
zlg	cubezzz say your a NON-programmer for a second.	Sep 20 06:12
zlg	the open source ones dont exist	Sep 20 06:12
Will	zlg: in what area(s)?	Sep 20 06:12
Will	finding the gaps is the first step to correcting them.	Sep 20 06:12
zlg	huge number of areas, how about a decent Printed circuit board design tool, (commercail qualityh), or a scada superviser, or a Ladder logic interpretter,	Sep 20 06:13
zlg	or satellite phone interface and configuration software.	Sep 20 06:13
ziggyfish_	hangon, give me a min, let me do a google search	Sep 20 06:14
zlg	or commercail quality PGA design tools, electronics simulations,	Sep 20 06:14
ziggyfish_	Ladder logic interpretter - http://www.control.com/thread/1005082485	Sep 20 06:15
zlg	Get me a configuration utility for a nera 3080 satphone please.	Sep 20 06:15
Will	zlg: you are learning another aspect of open source culture right now: community	Sep 20 06:15
zlg	ok try IEC 61131-3 compliant.	Sep 20 06:16
ziggyfish_	scada superviser - http://www.modcomp.com/scada/index.htm	Sep 20 06:16
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ziggyfish_	zlg, wine	Sep 20 06:17
ziggyfish_	http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/mirror/tools_htmlized.html - Printed circuit board design tool	Sep 20 06:18
ziggyfish_	zlg, anymore	Sep 20 06:18
zlg	wine nice to drink, but NO ONE in their right mind would think to put another 2 or 3 layers of API and software in a SCADA system. (that they expect to work).	Sep 20 06:18
cubezzz	ok, we are way off track here :)	Sep 20 06:18
ziggyfish_	zlg, look and you shall find	Sep 20 06:18
cubezzz	my own goal was to be able to program my own stuff	Sep 20 06:19
zlg	there are all those tools I know, Ive look at them all, thats why I said commercial grade. which they are decidely NOT.	Sep 20 06:19
Will	zlg: but if, even after a careful search, you still have a few areas where you can't find sufficient open source programs, then use proprietary stuff for now. But maybe ask around a bit. Maybe you can talk to someone or hire someone to get a program made.	Sep 20 06:19
cubezzz	I reached my goal, and i've never used a satphone :)	Sep 20 06:19
zlg	Look up Citect and IsaGraf, and find me good FOSS equivs	Sep 20 06:20
Will	zlg: but also, from the sound of it, this isn't exactly the kind of software your average user (home or maybe even enterprise) would use anyway.	Sep 20 06:21
zlg	and If i get paid $500 for one hour work on a sat phone, I dont want to be waisting 3 hours searching for some software that after all is not going to do any better OR cheaper than what I have or am using	Sep 20 06:21
cubezzz	you could have access to code without it being FOSS	Sep 20 06:21
cubezzz	which is the case much of the time	Sep 20 06:21
Will	not saying that the gap isn't important, just that there are large user sections that the gap wouldn't effect.	Sep 20 06:21
cubezzz	in fact, it was the case almost all the time, in the recent past	Sep 20 06:22
ziggyfish_	zlg, I only needed 5 mins	Sep 20 06:22
cubezzz	FOSS is new	Sep 20 06:22
zlg	every time you use a tap, use electricity, go to the toilet, you are using SCADA systems. you probably use them more than any one single thing, you just dont know it.	Sep 20 06:22
Will	or see if the commercial vendors will provide a Linux version of their software, even if it is closed source	Sep 20 06:23
zlg	FOSS is OLD	Sep 20 06:23
Will	zlg: I was talking about computer users	Sep 20 06:23
zlg	so was I	Sep 20 06:23
zlg	:)	Sep 20 06:23
Will	how many people know what scada means?	Sep 20 06:23
ziggyfish_	http://www.citect.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1463&Itemid=1317 , looks like it is web based	Sep 20 06:24
zlg	Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition	Sep 20 06:24
Will	by your own words, most people "just don't know it"	Sep 20 06:24
zlg	it's what controls power stations, water supply, electrinic, factories, plants, well just about everything.	Sep 20 06:24
ziggyfish_	http://free-scada.org/	Sep 20 06:25
cubezzz	lol	Sep 20 06:26
cubezzz	well I guess I better get working on my own scada system	Sep 20 06:26
ziggyfish_	lol	Sep 20 06:26
zlg	yes, I know what citect is	Sep 20 06:26
Will	ziggyfish: This is good work btw. I could use some ammo for talks in this area.	Sep 20 06:27
cubezzz	no one can program _everything_	Sep 20 06:27
cubezzz	Stallman has probably stopped writing code	Sep 20 06:27
zlg	almost no one can program _ANything_	Sep 20 06:27
ziggyfish_	zlg, my point is that it's cross platform, meaning I can use this software anywhere if I got a browser	Sep 20 06:27
ziggyfish_	http://www.oscada.org/	Sep 20 06:28
ziggyfish_	Will, no problem, it's fun seeing proving trolls wrong	Sep 20 06:28
cubezzz	zlg: it's like you're going into a room full of carpenters and telling them they can buy furniture at Sears	Sep 20 06:28
zlg	gee I could watch a movie frmo a Linux web server, does that mean im using Linux ?	Sep 20 06:28
zlg	they can	Sep 20 06:29
Will	well, if there was no Linux, how would you have watched the movie?	Sep 20 06:29
cubezzz	well, I happen to like programming, so of course I want source code	Sep 20 06:29
ziggyfish_	zlg, it means I have the option to run linux if I want	Sep 20 06:29
zlg	they are free to do so if they wish. are you saying you are telling them they cannot ?	Sep 20 06:29
*ziggyfish_ nods at Will, good point		Sep 20 06:30
zlg	I like programming too, I dont like programming other peoples code, I tend to like to do my own.	Sep 20 06:30
zlg	Feels better than copying the efforts of others, to me, anyway, more moral.	Sep 20 06:30
ziggyfish_	zlg, well than you don't like programming software used by other people	Sep 20 06:30
cubezzz	I did mention porting and bug fixes yes? :)	Sep 20 06:30
zlg	I dont like programming, by using other peoples programs,	Sep 20 06:31
zlg	It';s not really me then, its someone elses idea's.	Sep 20 06:31
cubezzz	you can learn what to avoid	Sep 20 06:31
Will	but zlg: what I mean is this: if there truly is a dearth of quality scada software that runs in Linux, then that is a problem that needs to be addressed. But for the general populatoin, how many average users need to be able to use scada software?	Sep 20 06:31
ziggyfish_	zlg, so you have written your own compiler and OS	Sep 20 06:31
ziggyfish_	?	Sep 20 06:31
cubezzz	or learn something good	Sep 20 06:31
zlg	Yes, often	Sep 20 06:31
DaemonFC	http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/2138774	Sep 20 06:32
DaemonFC	rofl	Sep 20 06:32
zlg	for my embedded systems, I write everything gui, OS, I/O the works, dont you ?	Sep 20 06:32
ziggyfish_	yes	Sep 20 06:32
zlg	and I do it all from scratch, clean room, using C.	Sep 20 06:32
cubezzz	....	Sep 20 06:32
zlg	well there you go them	Sep 20 06:32
Will	zlg: if you don't like programming with other people's code, then I know you've never done numerical/mathematical computing.	Sep 20 06:32
zlg	Ok Will, I have but whatever, clearly your psysic abilities trump mine :)	Sep 20 06:33
DaemonFC	http://www.kittens-lair.net/cat-humor/cats-diary.html	Sep 20 06:33
ziggyfish_	zlg, sorry, but a couple of minutes ago, you said your not an experienced programmer	Sep 20 06:33
zlg	so ive never studies binary spanning trees or the like, or boolean logic ?	Sep 20 06:33
Will	zlg: so you never used math libraries at all?	Sep 20 06:34
zlg	I was im a VERY experienced programmer	Sep 20 06:34
zlg	I said *	Sep 20 06:34
zlg	actually, no I do not generally use any libraries, I code those functions myself.	Sep 20 06:34
Will	zlg: no lapack, blas, no numpy, nothing like that?	Sep 20 06:35
zlg	I dont nkowm, did what I say not convey enough information ?	Sep 20 06:35
Will	zlg: if not, then I stand corrected.	Sep 20 06:35
Will	zlg: it's just that there are enough good quality wheels already out there that I'd think most people would rather stand on the shoulders of giants than reinvent the wheel, but what do I know, I guess.	Sep 20 06:37
zlg	there is a big difference to looking up how some guy did it, and saying to yourself, "why bother thinking, ill just do what he did".	Sep 20 06:38
Will	there's also some merit to using code that has been stress-tested for decades.	Sep 20 06:39
ziggyfish_	zlg, as long as what he did works, does it matter, if you did it your self or not?	Sep 20 06:39
ziggyfish_	your really only wasting time	Sep 20 06:39
zlg	then explain the huge number of bugs in say Ubuntu, would there be so many if everyone did not just do what the guy before did ?	Sep 20 06:40
cubezzz	zlg: which operating system are you using now?	Sep 20 06:41
Will	zlg: isn't that also why there are some bugs? You write new code, it has new features, maybe those features haven't properly settled yet and they still have glitches.	Sep 20 06:42
zlg	your bias is starting to show, what does it matter what I use ?	Sep 20 06:42
Will	If everyone only did what the guy before did and nothing more, wouldn't it be stagnant and no new bugs would crop up?	Sep 20 06:42
zlg	if create something from a buggy chain, your product will increase the number (total sum) of bugs you have	Sep 20 06:43
zlg	bugs can multiply like a virus	Sep 20 06:44
Will	That's true for proprietary and open source. But hopefully over time the chain gets tested and refined and the bugs get worked out. Look at the process of Debian Sid --> Debian Testing --> Debian Stable.	Sep 20 06:45
zlg	not like in the doco "code rush" days, were foss were actually trying to ship with zero bugs.	Sep 20 06:46
Will	Even I sometimes think the 6 month window that several distros have settled on might be a little too frequent. Still, name any Windows or OSX release that has shipped with zero bugs.	Sep 20 06:47
zlg	not zero fair enough , but 40,000 !!! is a bit much	Sep 20 06:48
Will	where did that number come from?	Sep 20 06:48
zlg	ubuntu bug traker	Sep 20 06:49
Will	and does it count only the core OS, or does it include extra applications as well?	Sep 20 06:49
zlg	it's for Ubuntu GNU/Linux	Sep 20 06:49
Will	Because if it counts things like Gimp, Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape, etc, then it isn't a fair comparison.	Sep 20 06:49
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Will	check again or provide a link so we can verify	Sep 20 06:50
zlg	ie, Office and so on are included in MS's bugs and faults	Sep 20 06:50
Will	Because they are MS products. Is every concievable third party Windows app included?	Sep 20 06:50
Will	Because MS has been known to play that counting game before	Sep 20 06:51
ziggyfish_	yes, but can you give me the exact some of _known_bugs in MS	Sep 20 06:51
zlg	sorry I was a bit off with my 40,000 bugs, I should have been more concise	Sep 20 06:51
zlg	it's actually Open 62889 over 60,000 now, and growing faster than shrinking	Sep 20 06:52
Will	well, the number of open source apps total is probably growing too.	Sep 20 06:52
zlg	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu	Sep 20 06:52
Will	ok, and here's an example of one of the latest ones: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0/+bug/433372	Sep 20 06:53
Will	that's a Firefox bug, not an ubuntu bug	Sep 20 06:53
Will	to be very specific, it might be a bug in the Ubuntu package of Firefox.	Sep 20 06:54
zlg	look at the 30 critical, most are kernel issues.	Sep 20 06:54
ziggyfish_	1273	Sep 20 06:54
Will	I'll check that in a minute, but with the rapidfire pace of Linux kernel development, I wouldn't be surprised if bugs open and close on it all the time.	Sep 20 06:55
Will	on the dev branch	Sep 20 06:55
ziggyfish_	zlg, there are zero that are confirmed, critical and ubuntu 9.04, and are not package specific	Sep 20 06:56
zlg	im looking at the list now, and wondering if the word "CONFIRMED" next to most of them would tend to put your case into question.	Sep 20 06:57
zlg	kernel bugs are generally not package specific	Sep 20 06:57
Will	zlg: re-read what ziggyfish just said, then explain to me where I'm not getting it	Sep 20 06:57
zlg	they are kernel specific, ipso fatso, "kernel bugs".	Sep 20 06:57
Will	Last I checked, things like adobe acrobat, openoffice, hp printer drivers, and drupal aren't the Linux kernel.	Sep 20 06:58
ziggyfish_	I like this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1	Sep 20 06:59
Will	ziggyfish: It is by far the most severe and troublesome.	Sep 20 06:59
Will	and persistent	Sep 20 06:59
zlg	and SIGSEGV is not a kernel function ?	Sep 20 06:59
ziggyfish_	zlg, url = ?	Sep 20 07:00
Will	zlg: adobe acrobat bug. Not kernel bug	Sep 20 07:00
zlg	https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?search=Search&field.importance=Critical&field.status=New&field.status=Incomplete&field.status=Confirmed&field.status=Triaged&field.status=In+Progress&field.status=Fix+Committed	Sep 20 07:01
zlg	SIGSEGV is a kernal droping it's bundle trying to cope with adobe app, it's a kernel bug.	Sep 20 07:01
Will	and of course, adobe's stuff being closed source, there isn't much Ubuntu devs can do to fix the problems if Adobe's stuff is subpar	Sep 20 07:01
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ziggyfish_	SIGSEGV is the signal sent to a process when it makes an invalid memory reference, or segmentation faul	Sep 20 07:02
Will	zlg: did you read it? Then tell me, what is crashing: acrobat, or the kernel?	Sep 20 07:02
ziggyfish_	this means the program is trying to access memory that is not it's own (like null pointer)	Sep 20 07:03
zlg	I can tell you im quite sure the OS is responsible for segmentation error handling and not the Application.	Sep 20 07:03
zlg	see programms dont access memory, they communicate with the Operating System..	Sep 20 07:04
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zlg	The Operating System is responsible for Operating THE SYSTEM".	Sep 20 07:04
zlg	Go figue !!! :)	Sep 20 07:04
Will	"In both cases, the acroread process dies and if there were other tabs with acroread in them, they are also affected."	Sep 20 07:04
ziggyfish_	run the following program on any system, and tell me it is the OS	Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_	int main(){	Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_	int a = (int)0;	Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_	*a = 0;	Sep 20 07:05
ziggyfish_	}	Sep 20 07:05
Will	or this:	Sep 20 07:06
Will	%0\|%0	Sep 20 07:06
zlg	what if you run that code on a computer with NO OS ?	Sep 20 07:07
ziggyfish_	Will did your operating system crash when you ran it?	Sep 20 07:07
zlg	what's you point ?	Sep 20 07:07
Will	zlg: computer with NO OS running code......... ?	Sep 20 07:07
zlg	I would hope not, but I have not tried too,	Sep 20 07:07
ziggyfish_	my point is that the OS did handle it, but because it's a application error, it displayed a nice error for me	Sep 20 07:07
zlg	Will that surprises you ?	Sep 20 07:07
ziggyfish_	rather than the whole system crashing	Sep 20 07:08
Will	no, just that it sounds like a really primative machine	Sep 20 07:08
zlg	ok, im surprised you think the existance of an OS equates to sophisication	Sep 20 07:09
ziggyfish_	like windows 98 did	Sep 20 07:09
*ziggyfish_ remembers the BSoD		Sep 20 07:10
Will	primative might be the wrong word, but even tiny things often have some simple embedded os usually these days, right?	Sep 20 07:10
zlg	you need a good memory for that ziggy agreed. I remeber them too, but awile ago, LOOOG wile	Sep 20 07:10
ziggyfish_	Will, android?	Sep 20 07:10
Will	virtual machine	Sep 20 07:10
Will	right?	Sep 20 07:11
zlg	usually, they have some for of bootstrap loader as minimum yes	Sep 20 07:11
cubezzz	haha, he's a microsoft user	Sep 20 07:11
zlg	but a bootstrap loader does not an OS make.	Sep 20 07:11
Will	although I did do a little assembly programing a long time ago	Sep 20 07:11
Will	no os there, just register manipulation	Sep 20 07:11
zlg	thats right, even using assembler you can get a "bootstrap OS" that have basic I/O allowing you to write to the onboard memory.	Sep 20 07:12
Will	cubezzz : I didn't get that last post	Sep 20 07:12
cubezzz	he's just trolling	Sep 20 07:13
zlg	it might even have a simple assembly compiler on it for you.	Sep 20 07:13
Will	cubezz: I gathered that a while ago	Sep 20 07:13
ziggyfish_	Will, I have done some OS development, and know that the processor it self, produces this interrupt, when a program is accessing memory it shouldn't (that's why it's called 'protected mode')	Sep 20 07:13
Will	ziggyfish: I've not really done any OS dev	Sep 20 07:14
ziggyfish_	if the OS doesn't handle it, then the processor simple restarts (or faults again which also the OS ddin't handle)	Sep 20 07:14
Will	convenient how we just slid right out of that "kernel bug" argument like that.	Sep 20 07:14
zlg	any more to add ?	Sep 20 07:15
ziggyfish_	Will, if you get some time and you want to do some OS dev, here's a link you may need http://forum.osdev.org/	Sep 20 07:15
Will	well, not until we find an actual bug in the kernel itself.	Sep 20 07:15
ziggyfish_	lol	Sep 20 07:15
zlg	47768 Mount Root Files System Failed sleep well tonight.	Sep 20 07:16
ziggyfish_	mm, interesting, that is a hardware issue.	Sep 20 07:17
zlg	are you now going to tell me the filesystem is not in the kernel ?	Sep 20 07:17
zlg	LOL	Sep 20 07:17
zlg	wow, masters of the BUCK PASS.,	Sep 20 07:17
zlg	they call you teflon will ?	Sep 20 07:17
*cubezzz has kicked zlg from #boycottnovell (cubezzz)		Sep 20 07:18
cubezzz	sorry, I had to do it	Sep 20 07:18
Will	cubezzz: watching him grasp for straws so desperately was starting to get old anyway.	Sep 20 07:19
ziggyfish_	lol, that's alright, was getting bored anyway, now time to play a game (the only thing that Linux doesn't have YET)	Sep 20 07:19
cubezzz	yeah Linux sucks and it's full of bugs :)	Sep 20 07:19
Will	good debate and pointing out legit flaws is good, but I kept getting the sense that he was being deliberately obtuse just to try to find a chink somewhere.	Sep 20 07:20
cubezzz	he just wanted to argue	Sep 20 07:20
cubezzz	I could say white and he would immediately say black	Sep 20 07:20
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Will	troll protip: If you are going to nitpick, at least pick the right nits.	Sep 20 07:21
ziggyfish_	anyway I think I learnt something today	Sep 20 07:21
Will	don't pull up an Adobe bug and say it is a kernel bug	Sep 20 07:21
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ziggyfish_	what a SCADA system is	Sep 20 07:21
*ziggyfish_ has quit ("Leaving")		Sep 20 07:22
mib_3425	or dont say anything where that someone might not agree with. or you'll be censored.	Sep 20 07:22
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.")		Sep 20 07:22
Will	mib_3425: I think there's a difference between having a differing opinion and just trying to stir up <redacted>	Sep 20 07:23
mib_3425	yes, there is, it depends on what side has the power, who wins, not really what freedom is IMHO.	Sep 20 07:24
mib_3425	and a site called "boycottnovell" is not about stiring up trouble I assume :)	Sep 20 07:25
Will	mid_3425: well, in any case, kicking him wasn't my call. Besides, if that wasn't trolling, then what would you call it?	Sep 20 07:26
mib_3425	an alternative opinion, AND something that the power "man" did not agree with,	Sep 20 07:26
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ziggyfish	back	Sep 20 07:27
Will	ziggyfish: mib_3425 thinks that cubezzz was unfair to zlg	Sep 20 07:28
mib_3425	no, I just think he's very biased, and uses his power to get his way. as opposed to entering into a discussion about it.	Sep 20 07:28
mib_3425	I just dont have a very high opinion of people who do that.	Sep 20 07:29
ziggyfish	Will, how can he, he wasn't on when zlg was on	Sep 20 07:29
wallclimber	I think it's quite possible that mib_3425, zlg, and the old mutex are all the same person...	Sep 20 07:30
Will	that is of course a possibility	Sep 20 07:31
Will	mib_3425: what it looked like to me was that the discussion had devolved down to zlg going through the Ubuntu bug list trying to make a case that the Linux kernel had tons of bugs	Sep 20 07:32
Will	of course, he started by trying to count all the extra applications in there too	Sep 20 07:32
mib_3425	so is this mutex someone who you did not agree with too, (sorry I just find that type of witch hunt morally corrupt).	Sep 20 07:32
cubezzz	I don't even know mutex :)	Sep 20 07:32
*ziggyfish can here some digging		Sep 20 07:32
wallclimber	ask roy about him	Sep 20 07:33
mib_3425	I picked bug no.2, hardly going down the list, considering bug no.1 !!	Sep 20 07:33
ziggyfish	Will, see	Sep 20 07:33
Will	ziggyfish: beat me to it	Sep 20 07:33
mib_3425	my bad for picking the second bug, and it being a kernel bug. sorry.	Sep 20 07:33
mib_3425	next time ill be more biased for you if you like.	Sep 20 07:33
cubezzz	just be civil	Sep 20 07:33
*_Hicham_ doesn't agree with kicking zlg		Sep 20 07:33
ziggyfish	anyway, as I said before I'm over aguing with the troll	Sep 20 07:34
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*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...")		Sep 20 07:34
Will	ok zlg: here's the thing. Lets say there are a few bugs in the Linux kernel. It's possible, I guess. So what does that prove?	Sep 20 07:34
_Hicham_	cubezzz : we are in a free speech channel	Sep 20 07:34
_Hicham_	kicking people is bad for the channel	Sep 20 07:35
Will	come to think of it, I probably should have said something about that.	Sep 20 07:35
mib_3425	will, tell the truth I forget :)	Sep 20 07:36
Will	cubezzz: let zlg back in as his name.	Sep 20 07:36
*mib_3425 is now known as zilog		Sep 20 07:37
Will	zlg: I did tell the truth. Watching you grasp for straws was getting old, but kicking you wasn't my decision	Sep 20 07:37
zilog	what straws ? I went to the Ubuntu bug tracker and picked the second bug on the critical list and stated it.	Sep 20 07:38
_Hicham_	zilog : that doesn't prove anything	Sep 20 07:38
zilog	I think the person who tried to say it was a hardware fault, and kicked me was grasping,	Sep 20 07:38
_Hicham_	not necessarily a hardware fault	Sep 20 07:39
Will	besides zilog, if you were kicked and I assumed you had left, then what could I do about it after the fact anyway?	Sep 20 07:39
zilog	if you remember the talk was about being "confirmed" I said they were, and as they are "confirmed" and "kernel" I can say they are "confirmed Kernel" bugs. Sorry it's NOT me, it's the Ubuntu web site, fight it out with them.	Sep 20 07:40
Will	zilog, actually you went to that adobe bug first.	Sep 20 07:40
zilog	Yes, you mean the SIGSEGV bug with ?	Sep 20 07:40
Will	anyway, I gotta go for now. Have fun all.	Sep 20 07:40
Will	yes, that one	Sep 20 07:40
Will	gotta run	Sep 20 07:40
Will	the one where adobe is crashing and passing a signal to the OS	Sep 20 07:41
zilog	if that was the case it would be called a Adobe bug, not a Ubuntu bug, it means that on UBUNTU, but not other linux's this bug occures.	Sep 20 07:42
Will	it is a bug in the ubuntu package of adobe. Maybe someone else here can explain it to you.	Sep 20 07:43
Will	but even so, it isn't a kernel bug	Sep 20 07:43
zilog	It is still a kernel bug, news flash software apps crash all the time, bu the kernel is supposed to be able to deal with it, in this case it cannot properly deal with it, therefore its a bug in the kernal in it's inability to do what OS's do and catch such bugs.	Sep 20 07:44
zilog	Comp Sci 101	Sep 20 07:44
Will	ok, let's say it has been a long day. As I think I said earlier OS development isn't my background. If I'm wrong, what exactly is the point you are getting at?	Sep 20 07:48
zilog	well, if i had not of been mindlessly kicked I could have scrolled back and told you. But i expect it was something to do with accepting that Linux and the kernel are * NOT * perfect, if you thihnk it is perfect, and everthing is someone elses fault, how do you expect to confront and fix issues when and if they do occur.	Sep 20 07:50
Will	Umm... when did I state that Linux was perfect?	Sep 20 07:51
zilog	you did not, but the reaction I received when I indicated that the kernel may not be "PERFECT" seemed quite telling.	Sep 20 07:51
_Hicham_	kernel is not perfect	Sep 20 07:52
_Hicham_	no OS is perfect	Sep 20 07:52
Will	eh. Can't speak for others. I don't claim that it is perfect. I do think it is a high quality system and possibly the best all the other not perfect choices out there, IMO.	Sep 20 07:53
zilog	do why would me simply stating one aspect of this imperfection bring such a reaction against me ?	Sep 20 07:54
zilog	do *so	Sep 20 07:54
Will	And if I was mistaken the whole time about those bugs, it wasn't because I was blindly trying to preserve Linux's perfection, just that I didn't understand the situation well enough. I like people pointing flaws in Linux with _constructive_ criticism. I just don't like baseless FUD.	Sep 20 07:55
zilog	which I provided a link for you or anyone to confirm what I am saying, as NOT FUD.	Sep 20 07:56
Will	so if I was wrong about all that, then I apologize.	Sep 20 07:56
Will	zilog: Yes, and from the looks of things, I didn't get it. I probably misunderstood.	Sep 20 07:57
zilog	no need to apologise well to me anything, I dont deserve it :)	Sep 20 07:57
Will	zilog: about what you said earlier: there are so-called zealots for every OS.	Sep 20 08:00
zilog	there are also moderates, and agnostics, which is where I put myself.	Sep 20 08:01
Will	but if Linux people in particular are a bit touchy, it's not like they haven't been given cause to be. Quite often.	Sep 20 08:01
Will	and there are also people that don't like seeing corruption and greed trump concern for people and society as a whole.	Sep 20 08:02
zilog	yes, but both sides are certainly guilty of that one, im sure a Novell employee might be a "bit touchy" about this place too.	Sep 20 08:02
zilog	Will, best you dont look at the US Sub-prime market too closely then :)	Sep 20 08:04
Will	I said don't like seeing it. Of course it happens. This world isn't perfect either.	Sep 20 08:05
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schestowitz	mutx, stop nymshifting	Sep 20 08:05
_Hicham_	schestowitz : are u sure he is mutex ?	Sep 20 08:05
Will	well, gotta go. can't stay here all day.	Sep 20 08:05
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schestowitz	_hyes	Sep 20 08:12
schestowitz	He used this nym before	Sep 20 08:12
cubezzz	what is the deal with mutex?	Sep 20 08:12
zilog	yes, was wondering that myself !	Sep 20 08:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Found Guilty of Breaking #Korean Law for Second Time This Year http://bit.ly/bTf3q		Sep 20 09:11
schestowitz	http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/09/17/acorn_hysteria/index.html	Sep 20 09:12
schestowitz	"As previously documented, Goldman Sachs itself has a virtual lock on the top Treasury positions no matter which party is in power. The vaunted bipartisan "Baucus plan" was literally written by a Baucus aide who just left her position as Vice President of Wellpoint to write the health care reform plan for the Senate -- a revelation which barely caused a ripple."	Sep 20 09:12
schestowitz	"So with this massive pillaging of America's economic security and the control of American government by its richest and most powerful factions growing by the day, to whom is America's intense economic anxiety being directed?"	Sep 20 09:13
schestowitz	http://www.zerohedge.com/article/what-goldman-alum-eric-mindichs-role-chair-asset-managers-committee-presidents-working-group	Sep 20 09:13
schestowitz	"Yet with recent scrutiny of latent Goldman interests in virtually every segment of the executive branch, Zero Hedge does find it oddly convenient, that in those dark (for Goldman Sachs) days, the two key people making capital markets related decisions were yet another two Goldman Sachs alumni: Hank Paulson and Eric Mindich."	Sep 20 09:13
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bogdan	Hello	Sep 20 09:17
bogdan	Is anyone up this early?	Sep 20 09:17
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 09:18
bogdan	Did anyone else stumble over the problem of banishing the microsoft.com DNS name?	Sep 20 09:21
schestowitz	Hey	Sep 20 09:30
schestowitz	Any report on it? I didn't hear about it.	Sep 20 09:30
bogdan	Hey, is that you Roy?	Sep 20 09:31
bogdan	I'm trying to redirect microsoft.com to 127.0.0.1 to ban any Windows Updates on my box	Sep 20 09:32
bogdan	but the system always seems able to resolve the domain to an actual Microsoft IP address	Sep 20 09:32
cubezzz	http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/54de433e/286e26d5	Sep 20 09:33
ThistleWeb	bogdan: why not just disable automatic windows updates?	Sep 20 09:33
ThistleWeb	given how MS abuse the updates system, it's a wise move anyway	Sep 20 09:33
bogdan	I did, just that I'm a bit paranoid	Sep 20 09:34
ThistleWeb	then you can pick and choose which updates to accept	Sep 20 09:34
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: it would not work	Sep 20 09:34
ThistleWeb	if you're paranoid, windows is not the OS you should be running, they always own it	Sep 20 09:35
schestowitz	Microsoft ignores these settings	Sep 20 09:35
bogdan	I could make this redirect on my router, but now that I discovered this I gained interest in understanding it .	Sep 20 09:35
cubezzz	I was just about to say... :)	Sep 20 09:35
schestowitz	It was shown before. Microsoft ignores those tickboxes and overrides them	Sep 20 09:35
schestowitz	bogdan: why not run Wine?	Sep 20 09:35
ThistleWeb	if it's not exploits due to bad coding, they'll have backdoors	Sep 20 09:35
bogdan	Oh, I'm using Linux bigtime, this is just a temporary setup for my dad (1-2 days)	Sep 20 09:36
ThistleWeb	for a couple of days, a manual update should be fine	Sep 20 09:36
bogdan	Now that I found this bypassing I was hoping I could help discover a Microsft nasty trick.	Sep 20 09:37
ThistleWeb	MS don't update that often	Sep 20 09:37
bogdan	Such as a backdoor or smth.	Sep 20 09:38
ThistleWeb	really the best you can do, is set the updates to either download but let you choose, or dont download, just inform	Sep 20 09:38
ThistleWeb	that way whenthe balloon pops up you can select manual (I think) and look through what it's giving you, in the usual MS knowledgebase code	Sep 20 09:38
ThistleWeb	anything you dont like, like the WGA or OGA, untick it, then tell it to always ignore the stuff you chose to ignore	Sep 20 09:39
ThistleWeb	patch tuesday is every month? or every 2 weeks? I cant remember	Sep 20 09:40
bogdan	Yeah, but that doesn't kill M$	Sep 20 09:40
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: first Tuesday	Sep 20 09:40
schestowitz	I never had that experience	Sep 20 09:40
ThistleWeb	bogdan: only switching away from windows will do that	Sep 20 09:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How the #GatesFoundation Privatises #Africa http://bit.ly/4p6i7u (HT @Scientes )		Sep 20 09:40
schestowitz	I never used a Windows with a real update mechanism	Sep 20 09:40
schestowitz	Windows was initially not made to be patched over the network	Sep 20 09:41
ThistleWeb	all you can do with windows is minimize the control they have over your pc	Sep 20 09:41
schestowitz	This is why WinNuke*.exe was made to work for so, so long	Sep 20 09:41
ThistleWeb	so that's once per month	Sep 20 09:41
bogdan	ThistleWeb: Correction: only by giving others reasons to switch they will loose their unfair competition practices.	Sep 20 09:41
ThistleWeb	which means after you update it, it'll be a decent chunk of time before another is due	Sep 20 09:41
ThistleWeb	reasons like "having control over your PC" for example	Sep 20 09:42
bogdan	But yeah, I'll move from windows back to my safe Ubuntu realm (with no mono...)	Sep 20 09:42
ThistleWeb	I'm saying, all you can do is lock down your dad's windows to a point, not totally	Sep 20 09:43
ThistleWeb	you could go to insane lengths to really lock it down, but even then you dont know the way MS ignore stuff	Sep 20 09:44
ThistleWeb	if it's only for a few days, it'll be fine	Sep 20 09:44
ThistleWeb	make sure the firewall is enabled on dialout, and you have an up-to-date antivirus and anti-spyware, turn off automatic updates	Sep 20 09:45
ThistleWeb	the rest is OTT for a few days	Sep 20 09:45
bogdan	Yeah, actually I'm working on much better way to eat up their market share - by embedding more freedom in the world	Sep 20 09:45
schestowitz	bogdan: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/21/cipav-and-microsoft-windows/	Sep 20 09:47
bogdan	Oh well, if Gov uses it - I forgot about that article - there is no chance of making M$ to stop using it.	Sep 20 09:49
bogdan	Thanks Roy for reminding me that.	Sep 20 09:49
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cubezzz	hmmm that's interesting	Sep 20 09:50
cubezzz	the one I heard about was The NSA	Sep 20 09:51
cubezzz	access system is built into every version of the Windows operating system now in use,	Sep 20 09:51
cubezzz	except early releases of Windows 95 (and its predecessors).	Sep 20 09:51
cubezzz	but that's old news	Sep 20 09:51
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bogdanRAnd0Mchar	@schestowitz: Roy, I was always wondering - how is it to keep up this website?	Sep 20 09:53
_goblin	Morning all...	Sep 20 09:54
bogdanRAnd0Mchar	Don't you ever get tired of watching over M$ shenanigans?	Sep 20 09:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I have been told there will be lots of bug fixes to gwibber landing in the morning in karmic. Fingers crossed :)		Sep 20 09:54
_goblin	who me?	Sep 20 09:55
_goblin	obviously not then....	Sep 20 09:57
cubezzz	MIcrosoft Word was original released on Xenix	Sep 20 09:58
cubezzz	Microsoft filed an emergency motion in which they asked for a stay of the injunction ruling. The motion was granted on September 4, 2009	Sep 20 09:59
bogdanRAnd0Mchar	Yeah all software developers are equal, except the ones that aren't.	Sep 20 10:01
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_goblin	bye then...	Sep 20 10:03
cubezzz	hmmm, what's with the morphing nick I wonder	Sep 20 10:04
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_goblin	time waster IMHO	Sep 20 10:08
_goblin	Ive been meaning to say to Roy that I don't think the IRC logs should be published...you get the COLA trolls reading and quoting out of context and they can hide behind the fact that they don't even need to enter the room.	Sep 20 10:09
_goblin	If they want to "monitor" let them come here and do so in real time...why should it be easy for them to misquote and lie?	Sep 20 10:10
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_goblin	oh, before I forget....Hi Moshe Goldfarb (that COLA wintroll will be reading this log when Roy publishes it)	Sep 20 10:11
Diablo-D3	that cant be a real name	Sep 20 10:17
schestowitz	It's not	Sep 20 10:22
schestowitz	The real name is Gary Stewart	Sep 20 10:22
schestowitz	Serial slanderer, admitted thief, racist, etc.	Sep 20 10:22
Diablo-D3	gary stewart doesnt even sound like a real name	Sep 20 10:24
Diablo-D3	someone with a name like that sounds like a gay guy with black ancestry hiding out as a white supremacist	Sep 20 10:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Secretary #RobertGates Honours #BillGates, #Microsoft May Manage #Stimulus Funds http://bit.ly/4OYDl		Sep 20 10:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Admitted #UNIX is Better Than #Windows Even 9 Years Ago, Finally Kills Windows Server 2000 http://bit.ly/195qNe		Sep 20 11:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Dumping in #SXSW , #Barnardos , and #Samsung http://ping.fm/PcQbg		Sep 20 11:23
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Sep 20 11:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Lazy Sunday. Making roast dinner for lunch.		Sep 20 11:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Zune and #WindowsMobile Fail at Rebirth http://ping.fm/IVI01		Sep 20 11:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Antitrust Pressure for #Yahoo #Microsoft, #Google Blocked by #USDOJ http://ping.fm/tekOF		Sep 20 12:30
trmanco	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB6ywgF990s&NR=1	Sep 20 13:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell , #Microsoft , and the “Microsoft Hater” #Daemonisation Label http://ping.fm/lIyXP		Sep 20 13:20
trmanco	gmane is b0rked	Sep 20 13:33
trmanco	http://imgur.com/NR0tA.png	Sep 20 13:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Very Large US #Bank Finds Out That #Sharepoint Fails, But Still Fails to Understand Freedom http://ping.fm/tgWws		Sep 20 14:10
fewa	http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/	Sep 20 14:38
fewa	"Too Good to be True?"	Sep 20 14:38
fewa	Thats an attack on free and open source software	Sep 20 14:38
fewa	When copies are free, except due to the monopolies given by congress	Sep 20 14:39
fewa	or copyright law in other countries	Sep 20 14:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft / #ISO Took More Control of #ODF http://ping.fm/VerSw		Sep 20 14:40
trmanco	http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2008/04/super-mario-in-14kb-javascript.html	Sep 20 14:41
Diablo-D3	http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/650/step_4_enemies.htm	Sep 20 14:43
fewa	trmanco, the jumping speeds are not right	Sep 20 14:50
fewa	and distance	Sep 20 14:50
trmanco	it's still a little rough around the edges but it works	Sep 20 14:51
trmanco	the concept is there	Sep 20 14:51
fewa	what a waste of programmer time :P	Sep 20 14:55
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fewa	you die when you reach the end	Sep 20 14:55
fewa	the browser can do alot these days	Sep 20 14:56
fewa	look at the source http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/mario/mario.js	Sep 20 14:57
trmanco	yeah	Sep 20 14:59
trmanco	I already had a look :-P	Sep 20 14:59
fewa	pittty firefox and chromium cant play midi files	Sep 20 14:59
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oiaohm	The html5 tags could allow it. But playing midi files people would want sound fonts as well	Sep 20 15:09
fewa	hmm bee playing this for a while	Sep 20 15:12
fewa	seems the laping function was not implamented	Sep 20 15:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Hold bank accountable, audit #bailout fight back against business interests and create US ombudsman on banks http://ur1.ca/c0na		Sep 20 15:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Steve Ballmer: employee morale at Microsoft is job #1 http://is.gd/3uowA		Sep 20 15:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Hold banks accountable, audit #bailout fight back against business interests and create United States ombudsman on #banks http://ur1.ca/c0na		Sep 20 15:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @davidgerard developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers http://ur1.ca/c0om		Sep 20 15:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Publishers were never in the "content" business, but the "paper" business. That's why they're fucked. http://is.gd/3upZX		Sep 20 15:37
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 15:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @davidgerard:c Publishers were never in the "content" business, but the "paper" business. That's why they're screwed. http://is.gd/3u ...		Sep 20 15:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] there is nothing about katie price that isn't made of 100% class http://is.gd/3ur7s		Sep 20 15:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @davidgerard: Publishers don't create value. http://is.gd/3upZX "Content is information you don't need."		Sep 20 15:55
DaemonFC	http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/us/21terror.html	Sep 20 16:01
DaemonFC	3 terrorists bagged in Colorado	Sep 20 16:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Compares Its Monopoly to the Older #Telephone #Monopoly http://ping.fm/QDfCH		Sep 20 16:02
DaemonFC	schestowitz, AT&T was worse if you can believe it	Sep 20 16:03
DaemonFC	they not only had a monopoly on computer software, but almost all telecommunications as well	Sep 20 16:03
fewa	DaemonFC, where is the crime?	Sep 20 16:03
fewa	and where is the evidence?	Sep 20 16:03
amarsh04	"we don't have to care, we're the phone company"	Sep 20 16:04
DaemonFC	fewa, so far they have conspiracy charges, lying to a federal officer, and the plans for the bombs on the guys laptop	Sep 20 16:04
fewa	almost the entire article is besides the point	Sep 20 16:04
DaemonFC	so that alone could get them sent away for quite some time	Sep 20 16:04
DaemonFC	you're probably talking 20-25 years just on what the government has so far	Sep 20 16:04
fewa	DaemonFC, who as the person hurt, and what information is it based upon?	Sep 20 16:04
DaemonFC	fewa, They stopped them before they could kill innocent people	Sep 20 16:05
DaemonFC	that's what they're paid to do	Sep 20 16:05
fewa	DaemonFC, once again, I challenge you to find the evidence supporting these charges	Sep 20 16:05
DaemonFC	fewa, Well, with any luck, they'll be getting nightly aqss rapings from Bubba for the next 25 years or more	Sep 20 16:05
fewa	the NY Times does not post federal court numbers so there is no way to verify what they are saying	Sep 20 16:05
DaemonFC	*ass	Sep 20 16:06
fewa	and the entire article is full of heresay	Sep 20 16:06
DaemonFC	well, we probably won't know most of what the government has on them til it's actually in court	Sep 20 16:06
DaemonFC	but I'm glad they stopped them	Sep 20 16:06
fewa	DaemonFC, stopped who?	Sep 20 16:07
DaemonFC	the muslims	Sep 20 16:07
DaemonFC	they can't be trusted	Sep 20 16:07
fewa	again you miss the fact that you can't hold somebody without having a reason	Sep 20 16:07
DaemonFC	must keep an eye on them at all times	Sep 20 16:07
DaemonFC	fewa, They have charges or they wouldn't have arrested them	Sep 20 16:08
DaemonFC	we'll find out what the bastards were up to in the fullness of time	Sep 20 16:08
fewa	DaemonFC, but you said the charges where "lying to a federal officer"	Sep 20 16:09
fewa	that seems like he was just defending himself	Sep 20 16:09
fewa	not telling them what they wanted to hear	Sep 20 16:09
DaemonFC	I doubt the feds would have moved in unless they already had a solid case or unless the terrorists were close to carrying out their plans and they couldn't wait any longer to nab them	Sep 20 16:09
DaemonFC	either way, they're better off behind bars	Sep 20 16:09
fewa	DaemonFC, has you spend the last few years on a remote island?	Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFC	fewa, Obstruction of Justice	Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFC	Making false statements to a police officer	Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFC	Conspiracy to commit murder	Sep 20 16:10
fewa	DaemonFC, havn't you heard of the hundreds of people who have been flown to Guantanamo to be tortured?	Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFC	I don't believe it	Sep 20 16:10
DaemonFC	besides, I do know that the Muslims behead people	Sep 20 16:11
twitter	M$ also compared itself to Coke, which is a better analogy.	Sep 20 16:11
DaemonFC	I haven't heard of us beheading any Muslims, fewa	Sep 20 16:11
fewa	DaemonFC, its done all the time	Sep 20 16:11
DaemonFC	when I do, I'll say we're the uncivilized savages	Sep 20 16:11
DaemonFC	so far, all the most cowardly/heinous things have been done by the Muslims	Sep 20 16:12
fewa	DaemonFC,	Sep 20 16:13
fewa	<DaemonFC> Conspiracy to commit murder	Sep 20 16:13
fewa	* http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/31/exclusive_john_walker_lindhs_parents_discuss	Sep 20 16:13
DaemonFC	pouring some water on someone and beheading them are two different things	Sep 20 16:13
DaemonFC	we haven't beheaded the savages and mailed them the tape	Sep 20 16:13
fewa	DaemonFC, he was left in a storage crate in the freezing during night, 120 heat during day, no food, no water	Sep 20 16:13
fewa	left there to die	Sep 20 16:14
DaemonFC	bullshit	Sep 20 16:14
DaemonFC	Muslim propaganda	Sep 20 16:14
fewa	DaemonFC, there is a letter from Rumsfeld himself	Sep 20 16:14
fewa	to "take the gloves off"	Sep 20 16:14
DaemonFC	Democracy Now is a well known group of sympathizers, appeasers, and outright liars	Sep 20 16:15
fewa	DaemonFC, if you don't not have evidence, there is a no reason people will listen to you	Sep 20 16:15
DaemonFC	anyone who hates this country and is willing to lie about it gets an article on that site	Sep 20 16:15
fewa	DaemonFC, you are a bigot, a hater of all people differn't	Sep 20 16:15
fewa	<DaemonFC> the muslims	Sep 20 16:15
fewa	<DaemonFC> they can't be trusted	Sep 20 16:15
DaemonFC	fewa, Well, when they're convicted of their crimes	Sep 20 16:15
DaemonFC	you'll see	Sep 20 16:15
fewa	Its just hate	Sep 20 16:15
DaemonFC	it's also a crime to have the blueprints for the bomb that the Muslim terrorists were planningto set off	Sep 20 16:16
fewa	<DaemonFC> the muslims	Sep 20 16:16
fewa	<DaemonFC> they can't be trusted	Sep 20 16:16
DaemonFC	That may bring the sentence to 30 years or more	Sep 20 16:16
DaemonFC	fewa, I'll never trust them	Sep 20 16:16
twitter	LOL, another "white picket fence" story for "pawns" and one night stands -> "We must make it clear that what we do is for the benefit of the majority of ISVs and businesses, and thus for the country, and that it is in their interest to help us succeed. We must set this as our goal."	Sep 20 16:17
DaemonFC	fewa, They're a bunch of sneaks and cowards	Sep 20 16:17
DaemonFC	what's to love?	Sep 20 16:17
twitter	The "minority" of ISVs must be those they decide to crush.	Sep 20 16:18
DaemonFC	you want to die for Allah, get over here and I'll be happy to introduce you to him	Sep 20 16:18
twitter	predictions of bloat -> " a large software industry build on wide standards."	Sep 20 16:19
DaemonFC	instead they go and murder women and children with bombs and shit	Sep 20 16:19
DaemonFC	fucking cowards	Sep 20 16:19
DaemonFC	that's what they are	Sep 20 16:19
twitter	fat bottom software makes the rocking world go down.	Sep 20 16:19
DaemonFC	fewa, http://img84.yfrog.com/img84/1976/fwfwfvd.jpg	Sep 20 16:21
DaemonFC	there you go	Sep 20 16:21
DaemonFC	the detainee abuse fraud is put forth because it's the only defense they have	Sep 20 16:23
DaemonFC	they lie and say they were abused to try and take the focus off the fact that they are bad people who are there for a damned good reason	Sep 20 16:23
DaemonFC	and frankly, the only thing that shocks me about their interrogation is that anyone made a record of it to add an air of legitimacy to the so-called "abuse" claims	Sep 20 16:25
DaemonFC	errr, how about "that anyone was stupid enough to make a record of it and give an air of legitimacy to those claims"	Sep 20 16:26
DaemonFC	I don't care what they did, but they never should have written down that they did anything other than walk in there and ask them questions apparently	Sep 20 16:26
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DaemonFC	if I was one of the interrogators, I would have dismissed the guard and all witnesses, and would not have written down anything I did beyond ask questions or whatever was appoved in the "field interrogation handbook"	Sep 20 16:28
_goblin	hello all	Sep 20 16:28
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to fewa		Sep 20 16:29
schestowitz	Hey, _goblin	Sep 20 16:29
_goblin	hows thjngs?	Sep 20 16:29
_goblin	*things	Sep 20 16:29
schestowitz	Doing one last post, then leaving	Sep 20 16:29
schestowitz	I wrote a lot today	Sep 20 16:29
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_goblin	I see Ballmers payrise didn't represent the current climate.....	Sep 20 16:29
schestowitz	Over 10 posts, some long	Sep 20 16:30
DaemonFC	fudged records avoid red tape more often than not	Sep 20 16:30
schestowitz	_goblin: yes, I was just writing about Ballmer's wage	Sep 20 16:30
_goblin	and they say crime doesnt pay	Sep 20 16:30
schestowitz	:-)	Sep 20 16:30
DaemonFC	_goblin, This is one of those things that nobody cares about really anyway	Sep 20 16:30
schestowitz	The most criminal employees get paid the most	Sep 20 16:30
DaemonFC	just don't do it in the open or leave a paper trail and you'll be fine	Sep 20 16:30
DaemonFC	leave it to the government to mess that up	Sep 20 16:31
schestowitz	MEre peons and temps get thrown out to vut expenses	Sep 20 16:31
schestowitz	*cut	Sep 20 16:31
DaemonFC	I'd tell them that if they talked about anything that went on in there, that "There won't be a hearing, there won't be any paperwork, you'll have a heart attack in your cell one night and nobody will ever know any different"	Sep 20 16:32
twitter	it's easier to give yourself a bonus when you have just fired 5,000 employees and 5,000 perma-temps.	Sep 20 16:33
DaemonFC	fewa, That's why you know this is bogus	Sep 20 16:34
DaemonFC	if the government was really willing to torture them, they'd be willing to clean up their mess before it was on CNN	Sep 20 16:34
twitter	at an average of $100,000 cost of each per year, Sweaty B just freed up a billion dollars for himself.	Sep 20 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Have I missed something or are people suggesting a penguin picture in #Microsoft #Windows is a reason to buy 7? LOL. Thats desperate!		Sep 20 16:35
DaemonFC	if these were really show trials, I'd also suspect that their government appointed lawyer would never bring up the issue of so-called "torture"	Sep 20 16:36
twitter	he he, goblin. They want you to buy Windows 7 for the toilet bowl baby background.	Sep 20 16:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] talking of which, if by chance there are any Linux users who do want it..You can find it on the net anyway.Just google! #Microsoft #Windows		Sep 20 16:36
DaemonFC	typically if a government was using propaganda to bury claims of wrong doing, you'd hear nothing but "They are being treated well, and humanely, unlike their thousands of victims"	Sep 20 16:37
DaemonFC	and nothing more	Sep 20 16:37
twitter	see here http://bayimg.com/tag/windows7	Sep 20 16:38
DaemonFC	"shot while trying to escape" is another good one	Sep 20 16:38
twitter	http://bayimg.com/pacgaaacK	Sep 20 16:38
_goblin	LOL...Its a conversation between a few of the faithful, they are talking like a picture of a penguin is something special....maybe Ive missed something....	Sep 20 16:38
twitter	other fun is http://bayimg.com/OAdcdaaCn	Sep 20 16:38
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twitter	http://bayimg.com/OAcgpaaCk	Sep 20 16:39
twitter	http://bayimg.com/kaLNPaaBP	Sep 20 16:39
DaemonFC	"hung himself in his cell"	Sep 20 16:39
DaemonFC	tsk tsk	Sep 20 16:40
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twitter	http://bayimg.com/AaLoHAABp	Sep 20 16:40
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twitter	there's been lots of trolling here lately. Must be the impending launch/failure of Windows 7	Sep 20 16:41
DaemonFC	according to Wikipedia, Windows 7 is already a runaway hit	Sep 20 16:42
DaemonFC	you should check your facts, Wikipedia is _always_ right	Sep 20 16:42
DaemonFC	and _never_ biased	Sep 20 16:42
DaemonFC	:P	Sep 20 16:42
twitter	Did I mention that my EEE PC box came with a "Linux" sticker put over the "Windows XP" print?	Sep 20 16:43
DaemonFC	that's funny	Sep 20 16:43
DaemonFC	it's like getting hand me downs	Sep 20 16:43
twitter	That's a rather clear indicator that Asus was unable to sell the 701 as a Windows machine and had to reload them to get them out the door.	Sep 20 16:43
DaemonFC	twitter, or that most of them come with Windows	Sep 20 16:44
DaemonFC	so that's what they etched into the case	Sep 20 16:44
twitter	not that stuffed shelves were not a good enough sign of that.	Sep 20 16:44
twitter	bbl, there's lots of stuff to do today.	Sep 20 16:45
DaemonFC	I doubt enough people care what it comes with as long as it behaves the same way as their other PCs	Sep 20 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Profit is Down Sharply, But #Ballmer Profit is Up http://ping.fm/MDevt		Sep 20 16:45
schestowitz	Gotta go now	Sep 20 16:46
schestowitz	I'll write about new Vista 7 briberies later	Sep 20 16:46
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_goblin	see ya later roy.	Sep 20 16:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @schestowitz #Microsoft Profit is Down Sharply, But #Ballmer Profit is Up http://ping.fm/MDevt #Windows		Sep 20 16:53
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twitter	special mention. you are all just as safe as the good professor! http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4YnxcdZ5muc	Sep 20 17:07
twitter	experts know what they are doing, move along	Sep 20 17:08
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_format#Criticism	Sep 20 17:21
DaemonFC	heh	Sep 20 17:21
DaemonFC	schestowitz, I'm trying to figure out this PPA of mine	Sep 20 17:38
DaemonFC	I had thought about providing AoTuv Vorbis encoders in Ubuntu packages	Sep 20 17:39
DaemonFC	since I don't see anyone else doing so	Sep 20 17:39
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DaemonFC`	oh damn them	Sep 20 18:33
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_Hicham_	Hi All!	Sep 20 18:54
DaemonFC	my fan club is back, yay	Sep 20 18:56
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : how many pills do u take per day ?	Sep 20 18:57
DaemonFC	including you?	Sep 20 18:57
_Hicham_	you seem to be in a miserable state	Sep 20 18:58
_Hicham_	go see a shrink	Sep 20 18:58
_Hicham_	or are shrinks too expensive to afford there ?	Sep 20 18:58
_Hicham_	I know u don't have a health insurance	Sep 20 18:59
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, You don't need health insurance to see a psychiatrist	Sep 20 18:59
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_Hicham_	more than 40% in the US don't have health insurance	Sep 20 19:00
DaemonFC	so?	Sep 20 19:01
DaemonFC	most of the world starves or dies of AIDS	Sep 20 19:01
DaemonFC	that's another way to look at it	Sep 20 19:01
_Hicham_	so the US is not that great at the social level	Sep 20 19:03
DaemonFC	there's a lot of people that hate America and just try to throw every accusation they can at us	Sep 20 19:03
DaemonFC	and see what sticks	Sep 20 19:03
_Hicham_	everything sticks at America	Sep 20 19:03
DaemonFC	of course most of it really doesn't	Sep 20 19:03
DaemonFC	but they're bound determined to find any excuse	Sep 20 19:03
_Hicham_	it does	Sep 20 19:04
DaemonFC	they use us as an excuse for their own failings	Sep 20 19:04
DaemonFC	it's sad really	Sep 20 19:04
_Hicham_	America is full of bad people	Sep 20 19:04
DaemonFC	most of the world is full of far worse	Sep 20 19:04
_Hicham_	worse people live in the US	Sep 20 19:04
_Hicham_	instead of asylums	Sep 20 19:04
DaemonFC	about 1,000 miles to the south of me is a corrupt third world country where all the police are bought, the water has parasites, and organized crime rivals the military	Sep 20 19:05
DaemonFC	so I'm glad that I don't live there	Sep 20 19:05
DaemonFC	actually, most of Central America is like that	Sep 20 19:05
DaemonFC	then pretty much all of the African continent is worse	Sep 20 19:06
DaemonFC	I don't know why they even bother to draw the names of African nations on a map	Sep 20 19:06
_Hicham_	and u r saying that the US is clean, no corruption, no bribes, just straight people ?	Sep 20 19:06
DaemonFC	the government gets overthrown every 6 months in most of them	Sep 20 19:06
_Hicham_	like in the US	Sep 20 19:07
DaemonFC	I'm saying that the vast majority of the world has it far worse	Sep 20 19:07
DaemonFC	and it's their own fault	Sep 20 19:07
_Hicham_	when they don't like a president, boom	Sep 20 19:07
_Hicham_	and he is dead	Sep 20 19:07
DaemonFC	and the next one is jsut as bad	Sep 20 19:07
DaemonFC	and just as genocidal	Sep 20 19:07
DaemonFC	your point?	Sep 20 19:07
_Hicham_	my point is : stop praising America	Sep 20 19:08
DaemonFC	take a look around sometime	Sep 20 19:08
_Hicham_	it is not any better	Sep 20 19:08
DaemonFC	I'd much rather be here than in most places	Sep 20 19:08
_Hicham_	Scandinavia is probably the cleanest place in the world	Sep 20 19:08
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Right, I'll just go ask my local warlord for some food	Sep 20 19:09
DaemonFC	I hope he's not too busy shooting his political enemies without trial	Sep 20 19:09
DaemonFC	:)	Sep 20 19:09
_Hicham_	so, go to Scandinavia if u want a clean place	Sep 20 19:09
_Hicham_	people get killed without any reason in the US	Sep 20 19:10
DaemonFC	not by the government	Sep 20 19:10
DaemonFC	they all get fair trials	Sep 20 19:10
DaemonFC	usually too lenient on them	Sep 20 19:10
_Hicham_	fair trials ?	Sep 20 19:10
_Hicham_	come on	Sep 20 19:10
DaemonFC	yeah	Sep 20 19:11
_Hicham_	there is no fair trial in the US	Sep 20 19:11
_Hicham_	everyone can be bribed	Sep 20 19:11
DaemonFC	if you're charged with a crime, there is a civilian jury	Sep 20 19:11
_Hicham_	money = power	Sep 20 19:11
DaemonFC	you get a lawyer even if you can't afford one	Sep 20 19:11
DaemonFC	the burden is on the state to prove it	Sep 20 19:11
DaemonFC	you're presumed innocent	Sep 20 19:11
_Hicham_	u can get a lawyer in most places of the world without paying	Sep 20 19:11
DaemonFC	China has show trials	Sep 20 19:12
DaemonFC	Iran has show trials	Sep 20 19:12
DaemonFC	Mexico has show trials	Sep 20 19:12
DaemonFC	we don't	Sep 20 19:12
_Hicham_	u really good for a PR person	Sep 20 19:12
DaemonFC	in fact, it's so hard to get the death penalty in the United States that you practically have to kill 20 people in broad daylight in front of witnesses and skull fuck them	Sep 20 19:13
_Hicham_	the next Dick Cheney	Sep 20 19:13
DaemonFC	and even then, probably not	Sep 20 19:13
DaemonFC	like I said, far too lenient	Sep 20 19:13
_Hicham_	in the US, we have the most weird and violent ways in death penalty	Sep 20 19:13
_Hicham_	gaz chamber	Sep 20 19:14
_Hicham_	electric chair	Sep 20 19:14
DaemonFC	and even if you somehow manage to, you'll probably still die of old age because you have so many appeals	Sep 20 19:14
DaemonFC	so we really don't have a death sentence, unfortunately	Sep 20 19:14
DaemonFC	there is no state that uses the electric chair	Sep 20 19:14
_Hicham_	go to Texas and do sthg bad babe	Sep 20 19:14
_Hicham_	and u will see	Sep 20 19:14
DaemonFC	it's pretty much all lethal injection	Sep 20 19:14
DaemonFC	Utah gives you a choice of that or firing squad cause of all the Mormons	Sep 20 19:15
_Hicham_	they will invent a death penalty way for u	Sep 20 19:15
_Hicham_	and what do u prefer ?	Sep 20 19:15
_Hicham_	lethal injection ?	Sep 20 19:15
DaemonFC	too lenient	Sep 20 19:15
DaemonFC	I prefer that they get to experience as much pain as they caused their victims	Sep 20 19:16
DaemonFC	but we're too merciful	Sep 20 19:16
_Hicham_	the US too merciful ?	Sep 20 19:16
_Hicham_	hahahahahahhaa	Sep 20 19:16
DaemonFC	I'd say give the family of the victim a baseball bat and leave the room	Sep 20 19:16
_Hicham_	that is the best	Sep 20 19:16
_Hicham_	and what have the Guantanamu people done ?	Sep 20 19:17
DaemonFC	heh, dump them in the sea	Sep 20 19:17
DaemonFC	fuck em, honestly	Sep 20 19:17
DaemonFC	I don't care	Sep 20 19:17
_Hicham_	typical american behavior	Sep 20 19:18
DaemonFC	can't find a country that will take them	Sep 20 19:18
DaemonFC	but all of them tell us to let them go	Sep 20 19:18
DaemonFC	gee	Sep 20 19:18
DaemonFC	dump them off in Antarctica	Sep 20 19:18
*schestowitz listens to http://www.twit.tv/floss6		Sep 20 19:19
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INebdHvAbEs	Sep 20 19:19
DaemonFC	You'd think that one country in the world would be merciful enough to take them since they "haven't done anything bad/wrong"	Sep 20 19:19
DaemonFC	wouldn't you?	Sep 20 19:19
DaemonFC	Norway or Sweden maybe?	Sep 20 19:20
DaemonFC	no?	Sep 20 19:20
_Hicham_	why should they take them ?	Sep 20 19:21
DaemonFC	like most people, they pop their head out long enough to criticize but they know that they're full of shit when they say those people haven't done anything wrong and should be released	Sep 20 19:21
_Hicham_	time to break fast	Sep 20 19:21
_Hicham_	see ya later	Sep 20 19:21
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DaemonFC	it's a tough sell even for politicians in Sweden I'm sure, to take in terrorists	Sep 20 19:22
DaemonFC	and repatriate them	Sep 20 19:22
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_goblin	Hi _Hitcham_	Sep 20 19:25
_goblin	oh dear he's gone..	Sep 20 19:25
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schestowitz	Anti-Obama AstroTurfing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/18/republicans-internet-barack-obama	Sep 20 19:29
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twitter	I'm starting to conclude that people in Seattle prefer charcoal to coffee.	Sep 20 19:30
*twitter misses New Orleans coffee		Sep 20 19:31
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schestowitz	http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/09/18/windows_seven_sins_ngos/	Sep 20 19:43
schestowitz	Clarke	Sep 20 19:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear HP. 70MB for a printer driver for XP!? Seriously? 507MB for the "Full Feature" one.I want to print something,not download the Internet.		Sep 20 19:49
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schestowitz	http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Windows-XP-Service-Packs-Update,8696.html	Sep 20 20:09
trmanco	digg is b0rked again	Sep 20 20:16
trmanco	they want more visits but sometimes they just can't handle them	Sep 20 20:16
trmanco	:\|	Sep 20 20:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Loving Mitchell & Webb Sound http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00mk7rn "..double plus un-not annoying.."		Sep 20 20:17
trmanco	intel is promoting windows 7 on digg	Sep 20 20:19
DaemonFC	schestowitz, this is news?	Sep 20 20:22
DaemonFC	it's already out of mainstream support, it's been known for a while that SP3 was the last	Sep 20 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Plastic surgeons warn against not giving them money http://notnews.today.com/?p=654		Sep 20 20:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear HP, Also, my OS locale tells you that I'm in the UK. A4 is common here so should be default, not Letter. Stupid doofus driver writers.		Sep 20 20:32
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_Hicham_	hola senior schestowitz	Sep 20 20:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A Pirate Party rally in Germany http://dropnote.de/IMAG0076.png #wikipedia		Sep 20 20:44
schestowitz	I'm getting fed up with Hess........	Sep 20 20:58
schestowitz	Opting for Open Source < http://www.serverwatch.com/trends/article.php/3839776/Opting-for-Open-Source.htm >	Sep 20 20:58
schestowitz	trmanco: how does Intel 'support' them (in Digg)?	Sep 20 20:59
schestowitz	_Hicham_: hey, Sergeant Hicham	Sep 20 20:59
*Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.19.165.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 20:59
trmanco	they had a sponsored digg	Sep 20 20:59
trmanco	I have a screenshot	Sep 20 20:59
schestowitz	Oh, that rubbish	Sep 20 20:59
schestowitz	To hell with Digg	Sep 20 20:59
schestowitz	And to hell with the criminal companies they do trade with.	Sep 20 20:59
_Hicham_	Omar87 : مرحبا بالأخ عمر	Sep 20 21:01
_Hicham_	عيد مبارك سعيد	Sep 20 21:02
trmanco	:\|	Sep 20 21:03
DaemonFC	http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/09/19/riaa-hopes-unpaid-child-labour-will-help-fight-piracy/	Sep 20 21:03
Omar87	_Hicham_: حيا الله أخ هشام	Sep 20 21:05
DaemonFC	heh, my Yahoo account is 11 years old today	Sep 20 21:06
DaemonFC	w00t!	Sep 20 21:06
Omar87	_Hicham_: بارك الله لنا و لكم و للمسلمين جميعا هذا الشهر الفضيل	Sep 20 21:06
*lis` has quit ("baibai<3")		Sep 20 21:07
DaemonFC	اطال الله راوغ رأسك والقرف أسفل الحنجرة	Sep 20 21:08
DaemonFC	heh	Sep 20 21:08
Omar87	DaemonFC: Do you even know what that means?	Sep 20 21:08
DaemonFC	it's close enough I'm sure	Sep 20 21:09
Omar87	DaemonFC: Close to what?	Sep 20 21:09
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : hahahahahahahaha	Sep 20 21:09
DaemonFC	ahem, enough for what I intended to say to be an easy guess I'm assuming?	Sep 20 21:09
_Hicham_	no	Sep 20 21:09
_Hicham_	this doesn't mean anything	Sep 20 21:10
DaemonFC	hmmm	Sep 20 21:10
DaemonFC	probably better that way	Sep 20 21:10
_Hicham_	just a set of words	Sep 20 21:10
_Hicham_	no meaning at all	Sep 20 21:10
Omar87	DaemonFC: Exactly like what _Hicham_ said.	Sep 20 21:11
Omar87	DaemonFC: No meaning at all.	Sep 20 21:11
DaemonFC	Сразу ебать себя	Sep 20 21:12
DaemonFC	B-)	Sep 20 21:12
_Hicham_	DaemonFC is a typical american	Sep 20 21:12
_goblin	no meaning is exactly why I have him on ignore now...	Sep 20 21:12
_Hicham_	who pretend to know everything	Sep 20 21:12
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, thank you	Sep 20 21:12
_Hicham_	hi _goblin	Sep 20 21:12
Omar87	DaemonFC: By the way, Google Translate is a very lousy tool. :)	Sep 20 21:12
DaemonFC	you're not so bad yourself	Sep 20 21:13
_goblin	hi	Sep 20 21:13
DaemonFC	yeah, I know	Sep 20 21:13
_Hicham_	Omar87 : did u use use Google Translate right after the last Intifada?	Sep 20 21:13
Omar87	_Hicham_: What?	Sep 20 21:14
MinceR	ⵀⵄⵞⵔⵘⵋⴽⴸⴺⴴⴹⵂⴱⵍⵆⵝⵀⵆⴷⵈⵞⵍⵃⵒⵏⵘⵖⵓⵏⴿ	Sep 20 21:14
Omar87	_Hicham_: Why?	Sep 20 21:14
_Hicham_	Omar87 : I translated : "Shit on Israel" from french to hebrew and then the other way	Sep 20 21:14
DaemonFC	long live Israel	Sep 20 21:14
_Hicham_	Omar87 : and guess what I had as an answer ?	Sep 20 21:14
Omar87	_Hicham_: And?	Sep 20 21:14
Omar87	_Hicham_: What?	Sep 20 21:14
_Hicham_	Omar87 : the final re-translation to arabic was : "I have nothing to say about Israel"	Sep 20 21:15
DaemonFC	hehe	Sep 20 21:15
Omar87	_Hicham_: LOL. :)	Sep 20 21:15
_Hicham_	Omar87 : the intent of Google Translate was to block people from insulting Israel in hebrew	Sep 20 21:15
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Well, if you don't have anything nice to say...shut your fucking cake hole	Sep 20 21:15
DaemonFC	how's that?	Sep 20 21:16
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : do u know what we do to daemons ?	Sep 20 21:16
Omar87	DaemonFC: Well, if you don't have anything nice to say, do us all a favor and unplug your computer, now. :)	Sep 20 21:16
Omar87	DaemonFC: How does that sound?	Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFC	I'm unmoved	Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFC	:)	Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Love them and pet them and squeeze them?	Sep 20 21:17
DaemonFC	:)	Sep 20 21:17
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : no, we actually throw stones on them	Sep 20 21:18
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Doesn't surprise me	Sep 20 21:18
DaemonFC	that's the Muslim answer for most everything	Sep 20 21:18
_Hicham_	the answer to american terrorists	Sep 20 21:18
Omar87	DaemonFC: Wow, man. You really are such typical american. :)	Sep 20 21:19
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Would be nice if you came out of 1000 BC and joined the rest of the world	Sep 20 21:19
DaemonFC	just a suggestion	Sep 20 21:19
Omar87	DaemonFC: Let me ask you. What's your favorite news channel? :D	Sep 20 21:19
DaemonFC	I usually watch NBC	Sep 20 21:19
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : would be nice if u get out and see the real world, instead of staying in front of tv and internet	Sep 20 21:20
Omar87	DaemonFC: WOW! So that's why I feel so sorry for you.. hmm.	Sep 20 21:20
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, I really don't care for the rest of the world	Sep 20 21:20
DaemonFC	well, at least 86% of the people around here anyway	Sep 20 21:20
schestowitz	Knuth: England is home of literate programming < http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39663084,00.htm >	Sep 20 21:20
Omar87	DaemonFC: Then shut that gaping hole of your mouth and stop talking about it.	Sep 20 21:21
DaemonFC	religious people are the craziest SOBs there ever have been	Sep 20 21:21
DaemonFC	or ever will be	Sep 20 21:21
DaemonFC	*has been	Sep 20 21:21
Omar87	DaemonFC: You're so pathetic, man.	Sep 20 21:21
DaemonFC	some more than others ;) but they're all rotten to the core	Sep 20 21:21
_Hicham_	DaemonFC admit that he doesn't care about anyone	Sep 20 21:21
_Hicham_	selfish american attitude	Sep 20 21:21
_Hicham_	typical	Sep 20 21:21
Omar87	_Hicham_: Exactly.	Sep 20 21:22
Omar87	_Hicham_: I don't blame them, though.	Sep 20 21:22
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, No, there's still a good chance that religion will blow up the entire world	Sep 20 21:22
DaemonFC	reasonable people with it	Sep 20 21:22
DaemonFC	so just go get on with it	Sep 20 21:22
_Hicham_	poor DaemonFC	Sep 20 21:22
DaemonFC	start World War 3	Sep 20 21:22
_Hicham_	media has eaten ur mind	Sep 20 21:22
_Hicham_	beside hollywoood movies	Sep 20 21:23
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, I have a dislike of pretty much all religions	Sep 20 21:23
DaemonFC	some just disgust me more than others	Sep 20 21:23
DaemonFC	nothing personal	Sep 20 21:23
Omar87	_Hicham_: Not after watching a documentary that exposed exactly the the American civilization is being deliberately indoctrinated in the and ever aspect of their life.	Sep 20 21:23
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)		Sep 20 21:23
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 21:23
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)		Sep 20 21:23
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 21:23
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)		Sep 20 21:23
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 21:23
_Hicham_	schestowitz : just let him	Sep 20 21:23
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)		Sep 20 21:23
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 21:23
schestowitz sets ban on DaemonFC!@*		Sep 20 21:24
schestowitz	_Hicham_: he adds little of value	Sep 20 21:24
schestowitz	He creates controversy	Sep 20 21:24
Omar87	DaemonFC: Exactly. The you are exactly what the US Government wants you to be.	Sep 20 21:24
Omar87	DaemonFC: Exactly. You are exactly what the US Government wants you to be.	Sep 20 21:24
schestowitz	http://whitepapers.silicon.com/0,39024759,60693939p,00.htm	Sep 20 21:25
schestowitz	Omar87: he's been trained well.	Sep 20 21:25
Omar87	schestowitz: He's been hypnotized well. Just like all Americans. (No offense)	Sep 20 21:26
schestowitz	That's not the issue	Sep 20 21:27
Omar87	schestowitz: Oh yes it is, Roy.	Sep 20 21:27
_Hicham_	I watch ABC, CBC, FOX and CNN from time to time	Sep 20 21:27
_Hicham_	I can't believe the way they handle news	Sep 20 21:28
schestowitz	He gets vindictive	Sep 20 21:28
Omar87	schestowitz: Please don't feel offended. But the issue is bigger than you think. It's even bigger than we all think.	Sep 20 21:28
Omar87	schestowitz: Have you heard about the NWO?	Sep 20 21:28
schestowitz	Each nation has its own POV	Sep 20 21:28
schestowitz	But the US has a lot of power over minds	Sep 20 21:28
Omar87	schestowitz: It's imprinted on your Dollars.	Sep 20 21:28
schestowitz	Fair enough for some, but they have other channels	Sep 20 21:29
schestowitz	Like democracy now	Sep 20 21:29
schestowitz	But it's not mass media	Sep 20 21:29
schestowitz	And the US treats Al Jazeera like it's Al Qaeda (conveniently for them it sounds similar)	Sep 20 21:29
_Hicham_	vive AlJazeera	Sep 20 21:30
schestowitz removes ban on DaemonFC!@*		Sep 20 21:30
*Omar87 has quit ("Leaving.")		Sep 20 21:31
DaemonFC	schestowitz, btw, Al Jazeera is not available	Sep 20 21:31
DaemonFC	not even via satellite	Sep 20 21:32
schestowitz	You can watch it online	Sep 20 21:32
DaemonFC	last time I tried to get on their website, it was too slow to even use	Sep 20 21:32
schestowitz	YouTube even	Sep 20 21:32
schestowitz	See other side of the stories	Sep 20 21:32
DaemonFC	there's always another side	Sep 20 21:33
DaemonFC	but never the truth	Sep 20 21:33
_Hicham_	AlJazeera is available on satellite	Sep 20 21:33
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Not when it's locked out	Sep 20 21:33
schestowitz	Old: Microsoft moves to integrate Windows with BIOS < http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39116902,00.htm >	Sep 20 21:34
DaemonFC	there's a couple minor satellite providers that only do business in certain regions that carry it	Sep 20 21:34
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : it is available in Galaxy 19	Sep 20 21:34
_Hicham_	in Ku band	Sep 20 21:34
_Hicham_	see wikipedia	Sep 20 21:34
schestowitz	_Hicham_: you'd get him arrested :-)	Sep 20 21:34
DaemonFC	I don't have an old style dish	Sep 20 21:35
schestowitz	[for watching the 'forbidden' sites]	Sep 20 21:35
schestowitz	BTW, AUssie still has the filters coming	Sep 20 21:35
schestowitz	Germany also	Sep 20 21:35
DaemonFC	schestowitz, It's not forbidden	Sep 20 21:35
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : it is just dropped from comcast	Sep 20 21:35
*Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.19.165.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell		Sep 20 21:35
DaemonFC	it's jsut really hard to get	Sep 20 21:35
DaemonFC	lack of interest I suppose	Sep 20 21:35
schestowitz	WHose?	Sep 20 21:35
schestowitz	WHose interest?	Sep 20 21:35
DaemonFC	they dropped a bunch of channels I watched because they weren't profitable in this market	Sep 20 21:36
schestowitz	Or the advertisers	Sep 20 21:36
Omar87	I'm back	Sep 20 21:36
_Hicham_	AlJazeera is not profitable ?	Sep 20 21:36
schestowitz	They sell audiences	Sep 20 21:36
_Hicham_	wb Omar87	Sep 20 21:36
Omar87	_Hicham_: Thanks.	Sep 20 21:36
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u don't have a dish ?	Sep 20 21:36
Omar87	schestowitz: Btw, speaking of Al-Qaeda.	Sep 20 21:36
DaemonFC	not one that I can aim at any particular satellite	Sep 20 21:37
DaemonFC	nobody has used those in over 10 years	Sep 20 21:37
_Hicham_	why ?	Sep 20 21:37
DaemonFC	old technology	Sep 20 21:37
_Hicham_	hahahahahaha	Sep 20 21:37
DaemonFC	they mainly do the mini dishes now	Sep 20 21:37
Omar87	schestowitz: Although Taliban and Al-Qaeda actually do exist, they both are no more the metaphors for a much larger and more terrible agenda.	Sep 20 21:37
_Hicham_	and the new technology is cable ?	Sep 20 21:37
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Cable always has been more popular than satellite	Sep 20 21:38
DaemonFC	one of the things that's keeping it that way is cable internet	Sep 20 21:38
schestowitz	Tutorial Tuesday: GNOME Hotkeys http://ardchoille42.blogspot.com/2009/09/tutorial-tuesday-gnome-hotkeys.html	Sep 20 21:38
_Hicham_	weird US	Sep 20 21:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Yay, Celebrity Come Dine With Me on the Hummy! :)		Sep 20 21:38
_Hicham_	they do what they want to their people	Sep 20 21:38
Omar87	schestowitzL: Anyone who dares to stand in its way will be recognized as another Al-Qaeda or Taliban.	Sep 20 21:38
DaemonFC	satellite companies don't even really have internet services anymore	Sep 20 21:39
DaemonFC	they give you like $10 /month off DSL	Sep 20 21:39
DaemonFC	woohoo	Sep 20 21:39
Omar87	schestowitz: Be it directly or indirectly.	Sep 20 21:39
DaemonFC	it ends up costing about half again as much (or more) to get satellite TV + DSL	Sep 20 21:39
schestowitz	Omar87: they take the extremist to create fear of a large population, I know....	Sep 20 21:39
schestowitz	That's like saying that if you're from Germany then you're with the neo-Nazis	Sep 20 21:40
cubezzz	I think Galaxy 19 might carry Al Jazeera	Sep 20 21:40
schestowitz	Or people from Louisiana are dangerous cause they might be linked to the KKK	Sep 20 21:40
_Hicham_	DaemonFC doesn't like dishes	Sep 20 21:40
Omar87	schestowitz: True. However, unfortunately, that's not the whole picture.	Sep 20 21:40
_Hicham_	DaemonFC is part of the KKK	Sep 20 21:40
cubezzz	FTA even: Al Jazeera English	Sep 20 21:40
DaemonFC	schestowitz, I just don't like the south because of a number of reasons	Sep 20 21:40
DaemonFC	it's OK to visit, but I wouldn't stay there	Sep 20 21:40
schestowitz	DaemonFC: what DO you like?	Sep 20 21:41
_Hicham_	DaemonFC has all symptoms of a confirmed terrorist	Sep 20 21:41
cubezzz	FTA Ku-band channels for Galaxy 19 (97º W)	Sep 20 21:41
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, How do you gather that?	Sep 20 21:41
schestowitz	_Hicham_: maybe NRAers	Sep 20 21:41
DaemonFC	schestowitz, When 86% of the population is crazy or stupid	Sep 20 21:41
schestowitz	Or militia members :;-p	Sep 20 21:41
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : first of all, u have a weapon	Sep 20 21:41
DaemonFC	there's not much you can like	Sep 20 21:41
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : and second, u are mentally ill	Sep 20 21:42
cubezzz	right, you can't just make broad generalizations	Sep 20 21:42
cubezzz	details count	Sep 20 21:42
_Hicham_	just this two symptoms makes u an ideal terrorist	Sep 20 21:42
DaemonFC	cubezzz, It's getting better	Sep 20 21:42
DaemonFC	just 18 years ago, over 93% of the population was crazy/stupid	Sep 20 21:43
_Hicham_	so, I may file a petition to the interpol to come and catch u	Sep 20 21:43
DaemonFC	it's a majority across most of the world though	Sep 20 21:43
Omar87	DaemonFC: From what aspect.	Sep 20 21:43
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, They don't have jurisdiction here	Sep 20 21:43
DaemonFC	so go ahead :)	Sep 20 21:43
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : you will get killed by ur own gang	Sep 20 21:44
DaemonFC	Omar87, Oppressive religious types that are sworn to take away all of my human rights one by one til they can legally have another holocaust	Sep 20 21:44
DaemonFC	throw people like me into their fire	Sep 20 21:44
DaemonFC	roast us with all the books	Sep 20 21:44
cubezzz	I think you can just stick up a FTA dish and get Al Jazeera for free btw	Sep 20 21:44
schestowitz	HP thinks we're all dumb(Ed down: http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HP-DreamScreen-100/	Sep 20 21:44
Omar87	DaemonFC: Look, again. I don't blame you. You are a victim.	Sep 20 21:45
cubezzz	Galaxy 19 covers Canada, USA and Mexico	Sep 20 21:45
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u look like a chicken, that is why u would be good to roast	Sep 20 21:45
Omar87	DaemonFC: However, one thing I do blame you for is not looking for the truth.	Sep 20 21:45
_Hicham_	and add some spices to you	Sep 20 21:45
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, That's one reason why I have the lifetime carry permit	Sep 20 21:45
DaemonFC	I don't go anywhere without at least one firearm holstered to me	Sep 20 21:45
cubezzz	poor chickens, everyone eats them :)	Sep 20 21:46
schestowitz	_Hicham_: let's not go there with humour	Sep 20 21:46
Omar87	DaemonFC: You, as well as the entire American population are all victims of a mass hypnosis.	Sep 20 21:46
schestowitz	I'm not in the mood for food now	Sep 20 21:46
_Hicham_	schestowitz : why ? are u sick ?	Sep 20 21:46
schestowitz	cubezzz: breeds them too	Sep 20 21:46
_Hicham_	did u eat sthg bad ?	Sep 20 21:47
DaemonFC	Omar87, it's an effective deterrent	Sep 20 21:47
schestowitz	Omar87: not just them	Sep 20 21:47
DaemonFC	I have had to shoot at people before	Sep 20 21:47
schestowitz	Most countries are	Sep 20 21:47
Omar87	DaemonFC: The words you keep repeating are nothing new. I've personally heard them so many time from so many people that I'm starting to believe Americans are no longer humans.	Sep 20 21:47
schestowitz	With Net censorship it might get worse	Sep 20 21:47
DaemonFC	I'd never be caught without it	Sep 20 21:47
schestowitz	_Hicham_: no, it's 10pm hre	Sep 20 21:47
Omar87	DaemonFC: They are biological recording machines.	Sep 20 21:48
Omar87	schestowitz: That's right.	Sep 20 21:48
cubezzz	speaking of TV shows, I saw a Linux show on TV one time, comparing BSD and Linux	Sep 20 21:48
_Hicham_	we have a criminal in here	Sep 20 21:48
DaemonFC	Omar87, And that's the first step towards a holocaust	Sep 20 21:48
DaemonFC	convincing yourself that they aren't really people anyway	Sep 20 21:48
Omar87	DaemonFC: Tell that to yourself.	Sep 20 21:48
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : go talk about the holocaust in public	Sep 20 21:48
_Hicham_	and see what they will do to u	Sep 20 21:48
schestowitz	We're all organisms :-)	Sep 20 21:48
DaemonFC	well, I'd expect you to deny it	Sep 20 21:48
_Hicham_	if u really have balls	Sep 20 21:49
DaemonFC	for obvious reasons	Sep 20 21:49
DaemonFC	so I'm really not going to debate this	Sep 20 21:49
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : go tell it to one of ur channels	Sep 20 21:49
schestowitz	_Hicham_: let's cool it down	Sep 20 21:49
_Hicham_	schestowitz : as u want	Sep 20 21:49
Omar87	DaemonFC: Look at how Disney and Hollywood carved that filthy image about Arabs and Muslims deep in your mind.	Sep 20 21:49
schestowitz	Aladdin	Sep 20 21:49
schestowitz	There are good documentaries about it	Sep 20 21:49
schestowitz	Let me find some....	Sep 20 21:50
DaemonFC	Omar87, I just would like to be left alone, and if you and the other invisible sky god believers want to blow each other to hell, have at it	Sep 20 21:50
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : and u , what do u blow ?	Sep 20 21:50
Omar87	DaemonFC: Muslims, for your information, are took the biggest piece of the pie of Hollywood's ricism.	Sep 20 21:50
DaemonFC	how is that?	Sep 20 21:51
cubezzz	what about Cowboy shows? "Indians" being the bad guys all the time	Sep 20 21:51
schestowitz	Racism in Disney < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LibK0SCpIkk >	Sep 20 21:51
Omar87	DaemonFC: Exactly! You are such a success story for the the NWO agenda! :D	Sep 20 21:51
DaemonFC	the NWO?	Sep 20 21:51
DaemonFC	heh	Sep 20 21:51
Omar87	DaemonFC: The New World Order.	Sep 20 21:51
DaemonFC	as in the wrestling group?	Sep 20 21:51
cubezzz	thank you Christopher Columbus for botching that up for centuries	Sep 20 21:51
DaemonFC	or as in the crackpot conspiracy theory?	Sep 20 21:52
Omar87	DaemonFC: It's imprinted on the back of your dollars.	Sep 20 21:52
DaemonFC	Novus Ordo Seclorum	Sep 20 21:52
Omar87	DaemonFC: Oh my God. I'm feeling sorry for you. :)	Sep 20 21:52
schestowitz	Disney and how they portray racism through sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg2T_t2UtlU&feature=PlayList&p=AC764C1EEEDD6752&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=18	Sep 20 21:52
schestowitz	Is Disney racist? < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp0LbKBV7oA >	Sep 20 21:52
Omar87	DaemonFC: So, you really do know about it. :)	Sep 20 21:52
DaemonFC	Omar87, You're mistranslating it anyway	Sep 20 21:53
_Hicham_	DaemonFC will be caught sooner or later	Sep 20 21:53
DaemonFC	new world order would be Novus Ordo Mundi	Sep 20 21:53
cubezzz	Novus Ordo Seclorum, with the eye and the pyramid? :)	Sep 20 21:53
Omar87	DaemonFC: That's not true.	Sep 20 21:53
Omar87	cubezzz: Exactly.	Sep 20 21:53
DaemonFC	Novus Ordo Seclorum means "New order for the ages" not "New world order"	Sep 20 21:53
DaemonFC	*of the ages that is	Sep 20 21:54
Omar87	DaemonFC: The same.	Sep 20 21:54
cubezzz	"New America Era" or something like that	Sep 20 21:54
DaemonFC	cubezzz, no	Sep 20 21:54
Omar87	cubezzz: No.	Sep 20 21:54
DaemonFC	that's not anywhere on it	Sep 20 21:54
DaemonFC	Omar87, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_ordo_seclorum	Sep 20 21:54
cubezzz	" Masonic representation of The Great Architect of the Universe"	Sep 20 21:55
MinceR	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_%28conspiracy_theory%29	Sep 20 21:55
MinceR	there you go, even the logo is there	Sep 20 21:55
cubezzz	ok, so that's what the eye is, I was never clear on that	Sep 20 21:56
Omar87	DaemonFC: I've read a lot about it already. The story is so huge that it would never fit inside you hypnotized brain.	Sep 20 21:56
DaemonFC	cubezzz, Omar87 doesn't understand the ceremonial representations	Sep 20 21:56
Omar87	your*	Sep 20 21:56
DaemonFC	so he's a conspiracy theorist	Sep 20 21:56
Omar87	DaemonFC: Of course I do.	Sep 20 21:56
cubezzz	the eye seemed Orwellian to me :)	Sep 20 21:57
DaemonFC	Omar87, The conspiracy theorists are delusional, and they've created a pretty convoluted story around their delusions	Sep 20 21:57
DaemonFC	they've basically written a movie script and are selling it as "prophecy"	Sep 20 21:57
cubezzz	we all believe man was on the moon right? :)	Sep 20 21:57
schestowitz	Belch. What is Jason doing...? http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterprise-Applications/LABS-GALLERY-Office-Web-Apps-Preview-Brings-Microsofts-Productivity-Flagship-to-Firefox-and-Linux-59/	Sep 20 21:58
Omar87	DaemonFC: Lol. :)	Sep 20 21:58
DaemonFC	Omar87, You can see "prophecy" in anything, including tea leaves and chicken entrails	Sep 20 21:58
DaemonFC	every human culture has had some deep rooted superstitions	Sep 20 21:59
Omar87	DaemonFC: One thing those "Conspiracy Theorists" do know, is that they must not believe anything said to them.	Sep 20 21:59
DaemonFC	Omar87, I also know this one	Sep 20 21:59
DaemonFC	you say that like it validates everything you're saying	Sep 20 21:59
_Hicham_	DaemonFC is a big scientist	Sep 20 21:59
Omar87	DaemonFC: You can see "Nothing" in anything. Thats exactly what they want you to be.	Sep 20 21:59
DaemonFC	Omar87, You can't disagree with me or you're "one of them"	Sep 20 22:00
DaemonFC	oldest line in the book	Sep 20 22:00
DaemonFC	Omar87, I'm not superstitious	Sep 20 22:00
DaemonFC	I'm not religious	Sep 20 22:00
DaemonFC	If you want the definition of insanity, religious and superstitious people provide the best example	Sep 20 22:00
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u r not human	Sep 20 22:01
DaemonFC	insanity as a legal defense means you can't tell right from wrong	Sep 20 22:01
DaemonFC	Religion takes that from you	Sep 20 22:01
Omar87	DaemonFC: I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm just a guy who wants to know the truth.	Sep 20 22:01
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : go see a shrink	Sep 20 22:01
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GPQZ7wGV8k	Sep 20 22:01
DaemonFC	religious people are indoctrinated into a society that takes away their ability to discern right from wrong	Sep 20 22:01
Omar87	_Hicham_: Exactly.	Sep 20 22:01
DaemonFC	it massages it out of them	Sep 20 22:01
DaemonFC	until they will do the evil bidding of their masters in the church, mosque, etc. without hesitation or question	Sep 20 22:02
Omar87	DaemonFC: Oh my God. You are an amazing success story of that agenda man.	Sep 20 22:02
DaemonFC	they're not evil people, they're brainwashed by the religion	Sep 20 22:02
_Hicham_	DaemonFC is a real toy	Sep 20 22:02
DaemonFC	how does religion attract people and strip them of their conscience?	Sep 20 22:03
DaemonFC	threats and bribes	Sep 20 22:03
DaemonFC	bribe them with heaven, virgins, etc.	Sep 20 22:03
DaemonFC	threaten with an eternity of hellfire and damnation	Sep 20 22:03
Omar87	Okay, people. Please don't be offended by anything I'm gonna say now. But, can any Atheist explain to me what exactly is Atheism all about?	Sep 20 22:03
Omar87	What is the Philosophical or Ideological meaning behind it?	Sep 20 22:04
DaemonFC	Omar87, Atheism is simply the non-belief in the supernatural	Sep 20 22:04
DaemonFC	there's a lot of different kinds of atheists	Sep 20 22:04
DaemonFC	including, Secular Humanism	Sep 20 22:04
DaemonFC	I think that's really what you want to know	Sep 20 22:04
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism	Sep 20 22:05
schestowitz	> [22:04] <Omar87> What is the Philosophical or Ideological meaning behind it?	Sep 20 22:05
schestowitz	Yes	Sep 20 22:05
schestowitz	There's not much	Sep 20 22:05
DaemonFC	in a nutshell....There's no gods or devils, all good or evil is man made	Sep 20 22:05
schestowitz	The rules are based, IMHO, on what nature gives us	Sep 20 22:05
Omar87	I can sum up "Atheism" in this small picture: http://shatterpoint.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/atheism.png?w=450&h=450	Sep 20 22:05
cubezzz	that doesn't really explain people like Dahmer though	Sep 20 22:05
schestowitz	Compassion, mutual favours based on expectations of reciprocity, etc.	Sep 20 22:05
DaemonFC	we're solely responsible for what we do to others	Sep 20 22:05
Omar87	schestowitz: That's exactly what "Atheism is all about"	Sep 20 22:06
schestowitz	Even chimpanzees have that innate to improve their survival and status in the group	Sep 20 22:06
schestowitz	So the ethical framework is like ubuntu (the African word)	Sep 20 22:06
Omar87	schestowitz: All by chance?	Sep 20 22:06
DaemonFC	Omar87, Religious types always attack non-religious types by stating that non-religious types can't definitively answer the questions of life and the universe	Sep 20 22:06
Omar87	schestowitz: With no creator at all?	Sep 20 22:06
DaemonFC	Religion is a convenience	Sep 20 22:07
cubezzz	well if I can interject here: Are knowledge level isn't too good	Sep 20 22:07
cubezzz	Our	Sep 20 22:07
DaemonFC	it doesn't give you the luxury of figuring out what happened because they tell it to you in fairy tales	Sep 20 22:07
Omar87	DaemonFC: Please to acting like a parrot, will ya?	Sep 20 22:07
cubezzz	we haven't even got to Mars yet :)	Sep 20 22:07
Omar87	DaemonFC: I'm starting to believe you're a bot.	Sep 20 22:07
schestowitz	Omar87: we are simple creatures	Sep 20 22:07
Omar87	DaemonFC: You are a bot.	Sep 20 22:07
schestowitz	Compare the size of Earth to the universe	Sep 20 22:07
_Hicham_	no, we aren't simple creatures	Sep 20 22:08
Omar87	schestowitz: Can you prove that?	Sep 20 22:08
DaemonFC	Omar87, It's like saying "Why bother figuring out physics, things fall because God says they fall"	Sep 20 22:08
schestowitz	Things like quasars and stuff	Sep 20 22:08
_Hicham_	we are more	Sep 20 22:08
schestowitz	It's all relative	Sep 20 22:08
_Hicham_	we have minds	Sep 20 22:08
DaemonFC	Religious types and that type of thinking bother me for that reason	Sep 20 22:08
_Hicham_	no other creature in the universe have mind	Sep 20 22:08
schestowitz	If our complexity is high, why not the rest?	Sep 20 22:08
Omar87	DaemonFC: I don't talk to bots.	Sep 20 22:08
cubezzz	we don't even know how big the universe is, only the visible universe	Sep 20 22:08
schestowitz	And who would create a creator.	Sep 20 22:08
schestowitz	That would require a lot of skill and complexity too	Sep 20 22:08
cubezzz	I have a theory :)	Sep 20 22:08
Omar87	cubezzz: Exactly.	Sep 20 22:08
_Hicham_	go ahead cubezzz	Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFC	schestowitz, And who created the creator's creator?	Sep 20 22:09
schestowitz	We can save a step or two and study as 'divide and conquer' by regressing to simpler questions	Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFC	and shouldn't that guy be the boss?	Sep 20 22:09
schestowitz	Like studying biology of bacteria	Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFC	:P	Sep 20 22:09
schestowitz	Then trees too	Sep 20 22:09
Omar87	schestowitz: Why would you ever need to know that?	Sep 20 22:09
cubezzz	this universe we are in now, from our perspective is Universe X	Sep 20 22:09
schestowitz	The DNA sequences of trees are similar to ours	Sep 20 22:09
cubezzz	but there is also X-1, X-2, X-3 etc	Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFC	Omar87, If you tell me you have all the answers, that's wonderful	Sep 20 22:09
_Hicham_	we think of creation, because we are created	Sep 20 22:09
Omar87	schestowitz: Does a piece of bread need to know who created the baker?	Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFC	I hope you have proof of every bit of it	Sep 20 22:09
schestowitz	So you can see we're biological 'cousins' derives from the same branches	Sep 20 22:09
_Hicham_	creation is not necessary	Sep 20 22:09
DaemonFC	and I hope that you can repeatedly demonstrate everything you claim	Sep 20 22:10
cubezzz	each Universe is created from the previous one, each iteration is different	Sep 20 22:10
_Hicham_	creation is the limit of the human mind	Sep 20 22:10
schestowitz	Science is fascinating when you learn how many molecules make you	Sep 20 22:10
cubezzz	so there :)	Sep 20 22:10
Omar87	DaemonFC: I am no more that a student.	Sep 20 22:10
schestowitz	It belittles all of our beliefs and technology and litartuire	Sep 20 22:10
DaemonFC	Omar87, I, the atheist, am not the unreasonable one	Sep 20 22:10
DaemonFC	all I ask for is proof of what you say	Sep 20 22:10
_Hicham_	schestowitz : our current knowledge is nothing	Sep 20 22:10
Omar87	DaemonFC: No human being has all the answers.	Sep 20 22:10
DaemonFC	if you tell me that Allah made the universe out of tapioca pudding and can prove it definitively	Sep 20 22:10
Omar87	DaemonFC: Prove it.	Sep 20 22:10
DaemonFC	then that's splended	Sep 20 22:10
Omar87	DaemonFC: I can not tell you how Allah created the universe.	Sep 20 22:11
cubezzz	I think Odin deserves a mention too :)	Sep 20 22:11
cubezzz	just to be fair	Sep 20 22:11
DaemonFC	Omar87, Then how can you tell me he did?	Sep 20 22:11
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u don't have the ability to answer that	Sep 20 22:11
_Hicham_	neither do anyone	Sep 20 22:11
schestowitz	I think of god/s as placeholders for stuff that's still too complex for us	Sep 20 22:11
_Hicham_	it is far from our knowledge	Sep 20 22:11
DaemonFC	Omar87, And you don't have any grounds to claim that's what happened	Sep 20 22:11
schestowitz	When man made fire it treated it with repsect	Sep 20 22:12
schestowitz	And revered the sun, which was this blob of light	Sep 20 22:12
Omar87	DaemonFC: And I don't need to know that piece of information either. However, one logical thing that I know so well, is that chance cannot build a car.	Sep 20 22:12
schestowitz	Without realising what it was	Sep 20 22:12
schestowitz	Many religions made a "God" out of the Sun	Sep 20 22:12
_Hicham_	it is not about making a god	Sep 20 22:12
DaemonFC	Omar87, No it can't	Sep 20 22:12
DaemonFC	humans can	Sep 20 22:12
Omar87	DaemonFC: So how can a chance create such a complicated universe?	Sep 20 22:12
_Hicham_	it is about thinking deeply	Sep 20 22:12
schestowitz	Which was just one among hundreds of billions of similar suns	Sep 20 22:12
DaemonFC	I see humans building cars	Sep 20 22:12
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schestowitz	or stars	Sep 20 22:12
_Hicham_	and accessing the limits of our knowledge	Sep 20 22:12
cubezzz	not illogical, since we really really need the sun :)	Sep 20 22:12
DaemonFC	so I'm satisfied that humans build cars	Sep 20 22:12
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schestowitz	THe Sun is no longer believed to be our creator	Sep 20 22:13
_Hicham_	DaemonFC is really dumb	Sep 20 22:13
DaemonFC	Omar87, The universe as a whole is not purpose built	Sep 20 22:13
schestowitz	But it's vital to our life as it was created with it as a precondition	Sep 20 22:13
Omar87	DaemonFC: Exactly! Cars do get built up on their own!	Sep 20 22:13
DaemonFC	there was a very very small chance of humans ever existing	Sep 20 22:13
Omar87	don't**	Sep 20 22:13
_Hicham_	the sun can't be our creator schestowitz, neither any object in the universe	Sep 20 22:13
_Hicham_	we are creatures	Sep 20 22:13
Omar87	DaemonFC: That's ridiculous!	Sep 20 22:13
DaemonFC	Omar87, the universe as it is not is easier to get than a car	Sep 20 22:13
DaemonFC	because we were not a desired result of a fine tuned process	Sep 20 22:14
Omar87	DaemonFC: Actually, I meant ludicrous.	Sep 20 22:14
DaemonFC	*now	Sep 20 22:14
schestowitz	Humans build cars and space cruisers with the same elements and brains people had 20,000 years ago	Sep 20 22:14
schestowitz	Not, THAT's amazing	Sep 20 22:14
_Hicham_	hahahahahahahahahaha	Sep 20 22:14
_Hicham_	hahahahahahahahahahahaha	Sep 20 22:14
_Hicham_	hahahahahahahahahahah	Sep 20 22:14
schestowitz	It makes humans like GOds :-p	Sep 20 22:14
_Hicham_	i ve never seen such a dumb person	Sep 20 22:14
_Hicham_	DaemonFC hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa	Sep 20 22:14
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, The universe is not purpose built	Sep 20 22:14
schestowitz	It is	Sep 20 22:15
_Hicham_	u r really a chicken	Sep 20 22:15
DaemonFC	we're here by accident and because enough things happened by chance	Sep 20 22:15
schestowitz	For its physical laws	Sep 20 22:15
_Hicham_	at least u have a chicken's mind	Sep 20 22:15
schestowitz	Which never changes since it started	Sep 20 22:15
cubezzz	I'm eating chicken right now! :)	Sep 20 22:15
Omar87	DaemonFC: Then how can you believe that such a very complex system got established in this fascinating way all out nothing??!	Sep 20 22:15
schestowitz	It maybe could implode and restart with different physical laws	Sep 20 22:15
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Is behaving like a chicken	Sep 20 22:15
schestowitz	Like another speed of light	Sep 20 22:15
_Hicham_	haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahaha	Sep 20 22:15
DaemonFC	Omar87, Chance	Sep 20 22:15
schestowitz	But it's still a complex question	Sep 20 22:15
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u really make me laugh	Sep 20 22:16
Omar87	DaemonFC: Are you even listening to yourself?!? :D	Sep 20 22:16
_Hicham_	chance can't build the universe	Sep 20 22:16
schestowitz	[22:15] <Omar87> DaemonFC: Then how can you believe that such a very complex system got established in this fascinating way all out nothing??!	Sep 20 22:16
schestowitz	It wasn't	Sep 20 22:16
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schestowitz	It evolved	Sep 20 22:16
Omar87	_Hicham_: Exactly!	Sep 20 22:16
schestowitz	That's the thing	Sep 20 22:16
cubezzz	we need a FOSS universe	Sep 20 22:16
DaemonFC	Omar87, We're probably not even unique, by "we're" I mean life	Sep 20 22:16
schestowitz	A lot can happen in billions of years	Sep 20 22:16
schestowitz	More than we can perceive	Sep 20 22:16
_Hicham_	blind evolution can't establish the universe as it is	Sep 20 22:16
Omar87	schestowitz: Evolved out of nothing??	Sep 20 22:16
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Of course it can	Sep 20 22:16
Omar87	schestowitz: See this: http://shatterpoint.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/atheism.png?w=450&h=450	Sep 20 22:16
cubezzz	these are meta-physical questions	Sep 20 22:16
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_Hicham_	and the physical laws we have are just an approximation of some other more complex laws	Sep 20 22:17
schestowitz	_Hicham_: yes, but what fails dies	Sep 20 22:17
schestowitz	Like exploding stars	Sep 20 22:17
DaemonFC	We don't know exactly how everything happened, so instead of figuring it out, let's create an invisible sky god	Sep 20 22:17
schestowitz	Or black holes that swallow matter	Sep 20 22:17
Omar87	schestowitz: It dies not because it failed.	Sep 20 22:17
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schestowitz	Man was not 'established'	Sep 20 22:17
DaemonFC	when people ask us for proof of the sky god, we'll just say that he only ever talks to us	Sep 20 22:17
schestowitz	It's a side effect	Sep 20 22:17
cubezzz	flying spagetti monster anyone? :)	Sep 20 22:17
Omar87	schestowitz: It dies because its lifespan has ended,	Sep 20 22:17
_Hicham_	exactly	Sep 20 22:18
_Hicham_	nothing is meant to last for ever	Sep 20 22:18
DaemonFC	cubezzz, His noodly appendage touched Omar87	Sep 20 22:18
schestowitz	Omar87: 99% of the world's creatures are already extinct	Sep 20 22:18
schestowitz	So many types of them failed	Sep 20 22:18
schestowitz	Those better at reproducing carry on	Sep 20 22:18
_Hicham_	schestowitz : not failed	Sep 20 22:18
schestowitz	It's not as though it's special-purpose-made	Sep 20 22:18
cubezzz	there's been what, 5 or 6 major extinction events?	Sep 20 22:18
_Hicham_	climate change	Sep 20 22:18
DaemonFC	schestowitz, Like the prehistoric spiders that were bigger than a dog	Sep 20 22:18
DaemonFC	those sound awesome	Sep 20 22:19
_Hicham_	climate change can kill us too	Sep 20 22:19
Omar87	schestowitz: How does that relate here?	Sep 20 22:19
DaemonFC	_Hicham_, Nope, Allah or maybe Jesus will save us	Sep 20 22:19
DaemonFC	one of them anyway	Sep 20 22:19
DaemonFC	I'm confident :P	Sep 20 22:19
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : Jesus will come for sure	Sep 20 22:19
_Hicham_	just trust me	Sep 20 22:19
_Hicham_	:)	Sep 20 22:20
Omar87	DaemonFC: _Hicham_ is right.	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	Omar87: what specifically?	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	_Hicham_: he did	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	On toast	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	Someone found him	Sep 20 22:20
DaemonFC	nope	Sep 20 22:20
_Hicham_	schestowitz : on toast ?	Sep 20 22:20
Omar87	schestowitz: The "extinction" part.	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	In a piece of toast	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	Yes, his fact	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	*Face	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	You didn't hear?	Sep 20 22:20
DaemonFC	that was the Virgin Mary that appeared on toast	Sep 20 22:20
schestowitz	Let me find it..	Sep 20 22:20
DaemonFC	:)	Sep 20 22:20
Omar87	schestowitz: How does that refute the existence of a God?	Sep 20 22:21
schestowitz	Oh, yeah, but I think it was both	Sep 20 22:21
schestowitz	There was also a Jesus toast	Sep 20 22:21
schestowitz	Let me find it	Sep 20 22:21
Omar87	DaemonFC: Be polite, or shut pleast.	Sep 20 22:21
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptions_of_religious_imagery_in_natural_phenomena	Sep 20 22:21
Omar87	please*	Sep 20 22:21
schestowitz	DaemonFC: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en-GB&q=jesus+toast&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8	Sep 20 22:21
schestowitz	He's allllllllllive	Sep 20 22:21
cubezzz	ok this might be of interest:	Sep 20 22:21
cubezzz	http://cs.anu.edu.au/student/comp8440/lectures/foss_history.pdf	Sep 20 22:21
schestowitz	Omar87: how do they know what Mary looked like?	Sep 20 22:22
DaemonFC	http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&sa=1&q=virgin+mary+grilled+cheese&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0	Sep 20 22:22
_Hicham_	schestowitz : Jesus will come at the end	Sep 20 22:22
_Hicham_	no doubt about that	Sep 20 22:22
schestowitz	Some of the stories about it emerges hundreds of years later and passed from mouth to ear	Sep 20 22:22
DaemonFC	http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/524515381_02210cbac0.jpg	Sep 20 22:22
Omar87	schestowitz: I do ask them this question too.	Sep 20 22:22
schestowitz	Like the stories about Mary sort of resurrected and going up to heaven	Sep 20 22:22
schestowitz	That came hundreds of years later	Sep 20 22:23
schestowitz	Warped story..	Sep 20 22:23
Omar87	schestowitz: 'coz I don't know the answer myself.	Sep 20 22:23
cubezzz	so much for BSD being Free in 1978	Sep 20 22:23
Omar87	schestowitz: That's Jesus you're talking about.	Sep 20 22:23
_Hicham_	DaemonFC : u gotta get more education	Sep 20 22:23
Omar87	DaemonFC: True.	Sep 20 22:23
schestowitz	Omar87: too bad...	Sep 20 22:23
schestowitz	SOme say he either didn't exist or was making claims people fell for. But that's another story......	Sep 20 22:24
Omar87	schestowitz: Do you even know how your 14 gradfather looked like?	Sep 20 22:24
Omar87	grandfather*	Sep 20 22:24
schestowitz	Omar87: can't	Sep 20 22:24
schestowitz	No drawings or anything.	Sep 20 22:24
_Hicham_	schestowitz : how can Jesus know that another prophet will come ?	Sep 20 22:24
schestowitz	Family tree goes like 7 levels up	Sep 20 22:24
Omar87	schestowitz: But still you do believe that he existed? How so?	Sep 20 22:24
_Hicham_	and know his name exactly ?	Sep 20 22:24
schestowitz	To 18th century-ish	Sep 20 22:24
_Hicham_	answer me plz	Sep 20 22:25
schestowitz	_Hicham_: which one of them	Sep 20 22:25
schestowitz	There would be like 2^15	Sep 20 22:25
_Hicham_	schestowitz : our prophet	Sep 20 22:25
_Hicham_	it is stated in the bible	Sep 20 22:25
schestowitz	I.e. I have like 500,000 granfathers at that level	Sep 20 22:25
Omar87	schestowitz: If you know the answer to my latest question, then you should know why God exists.	Sep 20 22:25
schestowitz	Oops	Sep 20 22:26
schestowitz	THat would be 19 generations	Sep 20 22:26
_Hicham_	no answer, thanks	Sep 20 22:26
schestowitz	Being a prophet is a hard job	Sep 20 22:26
_Hicham_	I appreciate ur diplomacy schestowitz	Sep 20 22:26
Omar87	schestowitz: Do you believe that you 14 grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him?	Sep 20 22:26
schestowitz	The complexity of prodicting matter and time in the universe it hard	Sep 20 22:27
schestowitz	Even for 10 seconds	Sep 20 22:27
schestowitz	PRophecy takes a very large processor/brain	Sep 20 22:27
_Hicham_	schestowitz : how can u explain prediction ?	Sep 20 22:27
schestowitz	EVen then, there's causality	Sep 20 22:27
Omar87	schestowitz: Please answer my question.	Sep 20 22:27
schestowitz	That's where things get tricky with quantum mechanics and all	Sep 20 22:27
schestowitz	Omar87: we can excavate them	Sep 20 22:28
schestowitz	We can also find the missing links in Africa	Sep 20 22:28
schestowitz	East Africa	Sep 20 22:28
schestowitz	Just needs to be dug deep enough	Sep 20 22:28
_Hicham_	schestowitz : have we ever seen a photon ?	Sep 20 22:28
schestowitz	If you go along those lines you'd also find those giant spiders and dinosaurs	Sep 20 22:28
schestowitz	It's all there. Concrete and real.	Sep 20 22:29
_Hicham_	have we ever seen an electron?	Sep 20 22:29
_Hicham_	nothing	Sep 20 22:29
schestowitz	With organic material and everything needed to reconstruction	Sep 20 22:29
Omar87	schestowitz: That's not necessary.	Sep 20 22:29
schestowitz	_Hicham_: I don't have the tools	Sep 20 22:29
schestowitz	Not even bacteria has those tools	Sep 20 22:29
schestowitz	But we made some	Sep 20 22:29
_Hicham_	schestowitz : the point is, we don't have to see to believe	Sep 20 22:29
Omar87	schestowitz: The logical answer is much easier and much more powerful.	Sep 20 22:29
schestowitz	Artificial tools	Sep 20 22:30
_Hicham_	that is why we have minds	Sep 20 22:30
schestowitz	People used not to know about atoms	Sep 20 22:30
schestowitz	Until some people in Alexandria (IIRC) hypothesised about it	Sep 20 22:30
_Hicham_	schestowitz : just a theory	Sep 20 22:30
Omar87	schestowitz: The main and only pillar you Atheists revolve around is something called "Materialism".	Sep 20 22:30
schestowitz	Later it was proven better (after middle ages and burning of major libraries and discoveries)	Sep 20 22:30
_Hicham_	to explain the stucture of matter	Sep 20 22:30
schestowitz	The world being round too	Sep 20 22:30
schestowitz	It wasn't post inquisition	Sep 20 22:31
schestowitz	That the world was round was known in Egypt well before that	Sep 20 22:31
schestowitz	After Artostanis [spelling] did an experiment	Sep 20 22:31
Omar87	_Hicham_: There is no need for this big hype.	Sep 20 22:31
schestowitz	_Hicham_: no, but we see it	Sep 20 22:32
schestowitz	We see the evidence of electrons	Sep 20 22:32
_Hicham_	ah, the evidence	Sep 20 22:32
schestowitz	We can also experiment with them to see how they behave	Sep 20 22:32
_Hicham_	not them	Sep 20 22:32
Omar87	schestowitz: You haven't answered my question.	Sep 20 22:32
schestowitz	We covered many 'placeholders'	Sep 20 22:32
Omar87	schestowitz: Do you believe that your 14th grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him?	Sep 20 22:32
schestowitz	Over time, things that used to be 'magic' are not taken for granted as factoids	Sep 20 22:32
_Hicham_	why not experiment with ur mind ?	Sep 20 22:32
_Hicham_	only ur mind	Sep 20 22:32
schestowitz	Milky Way is no longer just real milk from the breast of a Goddess	Sep 20 22:32
_Hicham_	that is the biggest gift we have	Sep 20 22:33
schestowitz	_Hicham_: my mind is small	Sep 20 22:33
schestowitz	We need to combine many	Sep 20 22:33
Omar87	schestowitz: Where did you get that silly fairytail from?	Sep 20 22:33
schestowitz	Multi-disciplinary work	Sep 20 22:33
_Hicham_	thanks to god u admit it	Sep 20 22:33
schestowitz	Project Manhattan employed like 100k people	Sep 20 22:33
schestowitz	Just to build an atom bomb	Sep 20 22:33
schestowitz	Omar87: it's true	Sep 20 22:33
_Hicham_	schestowitz : why do atheists prentend to know everything since our mind is small ?	Sep 20 22:34
schestowitz	That's why it's called that	Sep 20 22:34
schestowitz	mythology	Sep 20 22:34
Omar87	schestowitz: What is?	Sep 20 22:34
schestowitz	Influenza comes from the belief that it's caused by motion of stars	Sep 20 22:34
schestowitz	_Hicham_: people summarised their findings	Sep 20 22:34
Omar87	schestowitz: Who brought that to your mind? Walt Disney?	Sep 20 22:34
schestowitz	So we are told the fact and can descend to the proof of them	Sep 20 22:34
MinceR	http://zip.4chan.org/g/src/1253481942921.png	Sep 20 22:34
schestowitz	I am sometimes wanting to see the proof for claims that lay before us in documentaries	Sep 20 22:35
schestowitz	It's always there	Sep 20 22:35
schestowitz	And if you ask questions, then you see why	Sep 20 22:35
schestowitz	Ages of the universe has very good reasoning behind it	Sep 20 22:35
schestowitz	Formation of Earth too	Sep 20 22:35
Omar87	schestowitz: You haven't answered me, yet.	Sep 20 22:35
Omar87	schestowitz: Do you believe that your 14th grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him?	Sep 20 22:35
schestowitz	Also the fact that all galaxies move away from the same centre indicates they use to overlap	Sep 20 22:36
schestowitz	*used	Sep 20 22:36
_Hicham_	true	Sep 20 22:36
schestowitz	Omar87: where would I come from otherwise	Sep 20 22:36
_Hicham_	that is stated in the Quran	Sep 20 22:36
schestowitz	My 13th grandfather wasn't created by "poof! Magic". Very unlikely.	Sep 20 22:36
Omar87	schestowitz: That's the answer I want you to start from.	Sep 20 22:37
_Hicham_	schestowitz : and how was the first man created ?	Sep 20 22:37
schestowitz	And I can see someone else's 150th grandfather	Sep 20 22:37
Omar87	schestowitz: If it wasn't for you 14 Grandfather, where would you have come from otherwise?	Sep 20 22:37
schestowitz	His 15th grandfaher would probably be astounded to see people around him going "poof! Here I am!"	Sep 20 22:37
schestowitz	_Hicham_: there's no first man	Sep 20 22:38
schestowitz	It's mutuation	Sep 20 22:38
schestowitz	Very, very slow	Sep 20 22:38
_Hicham_	schestowitz : we mutated from apes ?	Sep 20 22:38
schestowitz	100 generations =~ 2000 years	Sep 20 22:38
schestowitz	10,000 generations =~ 200000 years	Sep 20 22:38
Omar87	schestowitz: And if it wasn't for your 15th Grandfather, where would have your 14 grandfather have come from otherwise? Until you come to realize that nothing pops out of thin air by chance.	Sep 20 22:39
schestowitz	Age of man	Sep 20 22:39
Omar87	schestowitz: Everything happens for a reason.	Sep 20 22:39
schestowitz	Age of Earth is like 10,000 TIMES more than that	Sep 20 22:39
schestowitz	Omar87: opposite	Sep 20 22:39
Omar87	schestowitz: Prove your argument.	Sep 20 22:40
schestowitz	You imply:	Sep 20 22:40
schestowitz	outcome is reaches by action	Sep 20 22:40
Omar87	schestowitz: "There's no first man", prove it.	Sep 20 22:40
Balrog_	schestowitz: where in the Old Testament does it say that the earth was created five thousand years ago ?	Sep 20 22:40
schestowitz	Rather then action leads to outcome	Sep 20 22:40
schestowitz	There's no sense of reason/purpose for probability	Sep 20 22:41
schestowitz	It just happens	Sep 20 22:41
_Hicham_	schestowitz : ur a Medical Biophysics PhD student, right ?	Sep 20 22:41
Omar87	schestowitz: Don't give me a biography about Darwin. Tell me logic.	Sep 20 22:41
Balrog_	(or a similar figure)	Sep 20 22:41
schestowitz	It's disappointing to think that there's no reason for asteroid to avoid our fragile and beautiful world	Sep 20 22:41
_Hicham_	it did hit the earth	Sep 20 22:41
schestowitz	Many asteroid did	Sep 20 22:41
schestowitz	Many asteroids did	Sep 20 22:42
_Hicham_	and so ?	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	Moon too	Sep 20 22:42
_Hicham_	the point ?	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	Almost every planet	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	~100 years ago a comet hit the Earth	Sep 20 22:42
_Hicham_	do u believe in mutation ?	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	Led to big fired in Syberia	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	*fires	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	_Hicham_: that's how DNA works	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	It can't replicate immaculately	Sep 20 22:42
schestowitz	That's a good thing	Sep 20 22:43
schestowitz	It permits improvement, not just degradation	Sep 20 22:43
Omar87	schestowitz: See? That's your problem, you just pull yourself out of the main topic by switching to astrology and space in the nearest chance.	Sep 20 22:43
_Hicham_	schestowitz : even thought DNA mutate, it does produce the same species	Sep 20 22:43
_Hicham_	right ?	Sep 20 22:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Slashdot Linux Story \| Forkable Linux Radio Ad Now On the Air In Texas http://tinyurl.com/mgtwaz		Sep 20 22:43
schestowitz	Define species	Sep 20 22:43
_Hicham_	schestowitz : species as set by biology	Sep 20 22:44
schestowitz	Race, species, animal, plant/animal are all the same things	Sep 20 22:44
schestowitz	The taxonomy changes because of some level of granularity	Sep 20 22:44
schestowitz	And ability to fertilise	Sep 20 22:44
schestowitz	You can mix races, not so much with species or animal types	Sep 20 22:45
_Hicham_	we can't mix species	Sep 20 22:45
schestowitz	So it's accepted that depending on some similarity/proximity we can show what belongs where	Sep 20 22:45
Omar87	schestowitz: How does that refute the existence of a God?	Sep 20 22:45
schestowitz	The last remaining type of 'humans' is homo spiens. We're almost all the same	Sep 20 22:45
schestowitz	Omar87: it doesn't	Sep 20 22:45
_Hicham_	huh, ur saying it	Sep 20 22:46
schestowitz	It refutes some other things	Sep 20 22:46
schestowitz	Like age of Earth	Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_	we are all the same	Sep 20 22:46
Omar87	schestowitz: Then how does it relate here?	Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_	age of earth ?	Sep 20 22:46
schestowitz	Yes	Sep 20 22:46
schestowitz	We know roughly the chronology	Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_	age of earth is stated using Carbon14 properties	Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_	roughly	Sep 20 22:46
schestowitz	Which refutes biblical writings	Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_	not exactly	Sep 20 22:46
Omar87	schestowitz: Yes what?	Sep 20 22:46
_Hicham_	what do biblical writings say ?	Sep 20 22:47
schestowitz	Some say it's like 6,000 years old	Sep 20 22:47
schestowitz	The judeo-christian anyway	Sep 20 22:47
_Hicham_	no, it is more than that	Sep 20 22:47
schestowitz	Depends on interpretations	Sep 20 22:47
schestowitz	A lot of the bible is just a string of names	Sep 20 22:47
_Hicham_	6000 years is little time	Sep 20 22:47
Omar87	schestowitz: LOL! Dinosaurs are only 6000 years old? That's hilarious. :)	Sep 20 22:48
schestowitz	Assuming it means anything at all. It's just arbitrary sounds that are put together, not something replicable like DNA code	Sep 20 22:48
schestowitz	Omar87: some people say that "God put the skeletons there"	Sep 20 22:48
schestowitz	"To test our faith"	Sep 20 22:48
_Hicham_	DNA code is not arbitrary	Sep 20 22:48
_Hicham_	just seems to be	Sep 20 22:48
schestowitz	It's very systematic	Sep 20 22:48
Omar87	schestowitz: Where did you get that from?	Sep 20 22:48
_Hicham_	DNA code is very well done	Sep 20 22:49
schestowitz	Omar87: debates	Sep 20 22:49
schestowitz	_Hicham_: agreed	Sep 20 22:49
Omar87	schestowitz: What is?	Sep 20 22:49
schestowitz	It has been made longer and more complex	Sep 20 22:49
_Hicham_	DNA mutation isn't 100% arbitrary either	Sep 20 22:49
schestowitz	But bacterium DNA is also super-complex for us	Sep 20 22:49
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schestowitz	_Hicham_: when mixing egg and sperm you have more than just a random process	Sep 20 22:50
schestowitz	You have the merging of 'capable' DNA.	Sep 20 22:50
_Hicham_	schestowitz : it is not really that random	Sep 20 22:50
schestowitz	Those that manage to reproduce and those amonfg the sperm that swim better	Sep 20 22:50
_Hicham_	i'd rather say pseudo-random	Sep 20 22:50
_Hicham_	but not completely	Sep 20 22:50
schestowitz	That's just scientifically speaking.	Sep 20 22:50
schestowitz	Nothing i s randon	Sep 20 22:51
schestowitz	"God does not play dice"--AEinstein	Sep 20 22:51
schestowitz	He used God as a metaphor BTW	Sep 20 22:51
_Hicham_	exactly	Sep 20 22:51
schestowitz	SOme people delibrately misrepesent what he said	Sep 20 22:51
Omar87	schestowitz: Then how do you believe the universe was created at random?	Sep 20 22:51
schestowitz	He was an atehist too	Sep 20 22:51
_Hicham_	nothing is arbitrary	Sep 20 22:51
schestowitz	Not even rand();	Sep 20 22:51
Omar87	schestowitz: Worng.	Sep 20 22:51
schestowitz	Everything is pseudo-random	Sep 20 22:51
_Hicham_	rand() is not random at all	Sep 20 22:52
schestowitz	There's a process to everything	Sep 20 22:52
Omar87	schestowitz: Albert wasn't atheist.	Sep 20 22:52
schestowitz	Everything is rhythic or prodictable	Sep 20 22:52
schestowitz	Entropy is tied to something	Sep 20 22:52
_Hicham_	everything is predictable	Sep 20 22:52
schestowitz	Omar87: what was he then? Agnostic?	Sep 20 22:52
_Hicham_	provided we have enough data	Sep 20 22:52
_Hicham_	the problem is with having enough data	Sep 20 22:52
Omar87	schestowitz: Jewish.	Sep 20 22:52
schestowitz	_Hicham_: welll.....: -)	Sep 20 22:53
schestowitz	In theorty	Sep 20 22:53
schestowitz	Omar87: it's a religion	Sep 20 22:53
_Hicham_	schestowitz : yes, in theory	Sep 20 22:53
schestowitz	He was Semite	Sep 20 22:53
schestowitz	_Hicham_: yes, but...	Sep 20 22:53
schestowitz	If you have infinity thern the entropy can be also infinity	Sep 20 22:53
_Hicham_	schestowitz : u know very well that there is no infinity	Sep 20 22:53
_Hicham_	infinity is just a mathematical concept	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	So in theory you can have the non-deterministic process invoked by an infinitely complex cause	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	_Hicham_: true	Sep 20 22:54
Omar87	schestowitz: Yes.	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	We deal with small numbers	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	We have just 10 fingers	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	So we have a decimal system	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	And we can't cope with large #s	Sep 20 22:54
Omar87	schestowitz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein (Ethnicity Jewish)	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	Like googol	Sep 20 22:54
schestowitz	Omar87: matter of interprettaion probably	Sep 20 22:55
schestowitz	Semantics	Sep 20 22:55
schestowitz	Like saying that Hitler was Christian	Sep 20 22:55
schestowitz	He rejected it while young	Sep 20 22:55
schestowitz	People are born without religion	Sep 20 22:55
schestowitz	Their parents have a religion	Sep 20 22:55
_Hicham_	schestowitz : agree	Sep 20 22:56
_Hicham_	but	Sep 20 22:56
Omar87	schestowitz: I disagree.	Sep 20 22:56
schestowitz	Kids are unable to understand such concepts	Sep 20 22:56
_Hicham_	if not influenced, what would be the result	Sep 20 22:56
_Hicham_	that is the question	Sep 20 22:56
schestowitz	When they do, they can decide what to make of input	Sep 20 22:57
Omar87	_Hicham_: That's not true.	Sep 20 22:57
schestowitz	There cannot be many correct religions, either	Sep 20 22:57
schestowitz	They are not mutually inconsistent	Sep 20 22:57
schestowitz	Science is not a democracy, it's concensus based ona truth	Sep 20 22:57
_Hicham_	i am talking about letting them choose	Sep 20 22:57
schestowitz	It's a symbiosis or fusion of one unified, cohesive explanation	Sep 20 22:57
Omar87	schestowitz: People are born with religion. Some people just loose it due to some circumstances.	Sep 20 22:58
schestowitz	But religion is a mental process	Sep 20 22:58
Omar87	_Hicham_: Most people don't let their kids choose.	Sep 20 22:58
schestowitz	WIthout thinking you can't have a religion	Sep 20 22:58
schestowitz	A newly-born baby has insticts	Sep 20 22:58
Omar87	schestowitz: You can.	Sep 20 22:58
schestowitz	Like "find nipple, cry"	Sep 20 22:58
schestowitz	Then they listen to sounds and start seeing	Sep 20 22:59
schestowitz	They actually hear sounds like the moher's voice while in the ovaries	Sep 20 22:59
schestowitz	I didn't mean ovary	Sep 20 22:59
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Female_anatomy.png	Sep 20 23:00
schestowitz	Complex biology....	Sep 20 23:00
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schestowitz	Laying eggs is probably a more complex system	Sep 20 23:01
Omar87	schestowitz: And how would that complex biology come out of nothing for no reason what so ever?	Sep 20 23:01
schestowitz	You then incubate outside the body	Sep 20 23:01
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schestowitz	Omar87: why reason?	Sep 20 23:01
Omar87	schestowitz: Why not reason??	Sep 20 23:01
schestowitz	Things happen for a reason only in the sense that one thing leads to another	Sep 20 23:01
Omar87	schestowitz: Not exactly.	Sep 20 23:02
Omar87	schestowitz: Actually, yes. Exactly.	Sep 20 23:02
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Omar87	schestowitz: No event can occur without a reason for it to occur.	Sep 20 23:03
schestowitz	It's all a chain	Sep 20 23:03
schestowitz	When time started	Sep 20 23:04
schestowitz	But we're still poor at it	Sep 20 23:04
Omar87	schestowitz: How would this complex system last for millions of decades if there wasn't a reason for it to stay that way?	Sep 20 23:04
schestowitz	Despite being the only animal capable of introspection at this level, the universe is hard for us to understand	Sep 20 23:04
schestowitz	It will last for a long time to come	Sep 20 23:05
Omar87	schestowitz: I agree on that. And that's my point.	Sep 20 23:05
schestowitz	Some theoreticians say the gravity from the expansion will lead to weird things, eventually	Sep 20 23:05
Omar87	schestowitz: You don't need to know how your God looks like for you to believe him.	Sep 20 23:05
schestowitz	But there are many things we don't know yet, like the stuff found at the edges and black hole with the option of wormholes	Sep 20 23:06
Omar87	schestowitzL You just need to understand that if God didn't create you, you wouldn't have existed.	Sep 20 23:06
schestowitz	Also, the universe may be curved, so we can't see beyond the 3rd dimension, still. We can do maths on it and find projections to 3-D though.	Sep 20 23:06
schestowitz	Omar87: the bible says God looks like me and you	Sep 20 23:07
Omar87	schestowitz: The bible is wrong.	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	Some bibles anyway.... most do	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	Even the most ancient ones	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	Some show Gods looking like animals	Sep 20 23:07
Omar87	schestowitz: Would you like a proof for thaT?	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	Or part man, part animals	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	I don't need proof of it	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	I agree with you	Sep 20 23:07
zilog	we can also see in the 4th dimention Roy, that being time.	Sep 20 23:07
schestowitz	Not just time, Mutex	Sep 20 23:08
Omar87	schestowitz: There are 25 versions of the bible, none of them agrees with any of the rest. So, which one should we believe?	Sep 20 23:08
schestowitz	None	Sep 20 23:08
schestowitz	It has some historical references	Sep 20 23:08
schestowitz	Some are true	Sep 20 23:08
schestowitz	Like all sort of genocides and stuff	Sep 20 23:09
Omar87	schestowitz: However, I as a Muslim believe in the Bilble, Torah and the Quran. (However, not the Bible and Torah we have now)	Sep 20 23:10
Omar87	schestowitz: If you go take any copy of the Quran on earth and compare it with any other version on earth, you'll find them totally identical.	Sep 20 23:11
schestowitz	http://d0od.blogspot.com/2009/09/5-excellent-empathy-themes.html	Sep 20 23:14
Omar87	schestowitz: Is it really better than Pidgin?	Sep 20 23:15
schestowitz	I've used niether	Sep 20 23:17
schestowitz	GTK.....	Sep 20 23:17
schestowitz	And I don't IM.	Sep 20 23:17
schestowitz	Firefox's Flash check drives 10M to Adobe's download < http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/319074/firefox_flash_check_drives_10m_adobe_download?rid=-219 >	Sep 20 23:17
schestowitz	Heh.	Sep 20 23:17
cubezzz	that reminds me I need to give gnash a try	Sep 20 23:19
schestowitz	I hear it's good now (for videos)	Sep 20 23:21
schestowitz	Omar87: when everyone agrees on a text, we'll have a LOT less to argue about in this world	Sep 20 23:23
schestowitz	Mostly territory and food and water then......	Sep 20 23:23
schestowitz	I want to try more wms.. http://linuxcritic.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/fluxconf-configuring-fluxbox-the-graphical-way/	Sep 20 23:26
Omar87	schestowitz: Unfortunately, of not all the world agrees on trivial logic, then how on earth would they agree on a text?	Sep 20 23:29
Omar87	if* not all..	Sep 20 23:30
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schestowitz	Heh. http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/20/blathering-on-about-feminism/	Sep 20 23:50
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*Now talking on #boycottnovell		Sep 20 23:51
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]		Sep 20 23:51
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009		Sep 20 23:51
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schestowitz	Real-Time Earth Wallpaper For Linux http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/09/real-time-earth-wallpaper-for-linux.html	Sep 20 23:59
schestowitz	Real-Time Earth Wallpaper For Linux http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/09/real-time-earth-wallpaper-for-linux.html	Sep 20 23:59

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