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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 27th, 2009

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twitter1It's funny, but until very recently I did not know the author was a woman -> http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2009091803235OPCYSep 27 00:13
twitter1None of those things seem like free software issues.Sep 27 00:13
Diablo-D3hehSep 27 00:14
Diablo-D3ironicSep 27 00:14
Diablo-D3people like carla schroder is why there is sexism in fossSep 27 00:14
twitter1It bothers me that she went on to say sexism was "holding FOSS back" as if FOSS were some bastion of sexism.Sep 27 00:14
cubezzzwell the tone is clearSep 27 00:15
Diablo-D3twitter1: it bothers me that she doesnt realize her cunt is sandySep 27 00:15
Diablo-D3why the fuck do women do thatSep 27 00:15
Diablo-D3we treat them generlessly, and they have to go fuck it upSep 27 00:15
Diablo-D3I was quite happy with foss having no gender problemsSep 27 00:15
cubezzzmost of the time I don't know the gender, at least not in IRCSep 27 00:15
Diablo-D3cubezzz: AND THATS THE WAY IT SHOULD BESep 27 00:16
Diablo-D3fucking womenSep 27 00:16
Diablo-D3"dont treat me as a woman" "okay I want" "I HAVE TITS, WORSHIP THEM!"Sep 27 00:16
Diablo-D3fucking bipolar whoresSep 27 00:16
cubezzzok, I don't think it's quite that bad :)Sep 27 00:16
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cubezzzyeah it's distractingSep 27 00:18
Diablo-D3no shit is it distractingSep 27 00:18
Diablo-D3especially since half the foss community are virginsSep 27 00:18
Diablo-D3the last thing we need is some woman getting it into her head that she should tell these people shes a womanSep 27 00:19
Diablo-D3woman in foss is probably some sort of microsoft plotSep 27 00:19
twitter1I have seen only two people in BN IRC have announced their gender.Sep 27 00:34
cubezzzI've met decent women programmersSep 27 00:39
cubezzzbut I've never met any women _linux_ programmer, that must be the rarest of the rareSep 27 00:40
Diablo-D3cubezzz: SO HEYSep 27 00:40
twitter1I was taught numerical methods by a woman.Sep 27 00:40
Diablo-D3YOU KNOW WHAT A DECENT WOMAN PROGRAMMER IS?Sep 27 00:40
Diablo-D3ONE THAT DOESNT SAY SHES A WOMANSep 27 00:40
Diablo-D3SeriouslySep 27 00:40
Diablo-D3there are very few things that make me angrySep 27 00:40
cubezzzDiablo-D3, it was at work, I could see her :)Sep 27 00:40
cubezzzthis is before www and all thatSep 27 00:41
Diablo-D3something that borders on what ultimately equates to militant feminism pisses me offSep 27 00:41
Diablo-D3who the almighty fuck cares if you have a cuntSep 27 00:41
Diablo-D3it doesnt improve your ability to bang out codeSep 27 00:41
cubezzzthere were some women devs at NCRSep 27 00:41
Diablo-D3who. the fuck. cares.Sep 27 00:41
Diablo-D3I dont care. no one else cares.Sep 27 00:42
cubezzzDiablo-D3, right, I get thatSep 27 00:42
Diablo-D3so why the fuck do these bitches keep bringing it upSep 27 00:42
Diablo-D3there was no sexism until _they_ brought it here!Sep 27 00:42
Diablo-D3and they can take it with them when they leave!Sep 27 00:42
cubezzzok, for what's it's worth:Sep 27 01:00
cubezzzhttp://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x168.htmlSep 27 01:00
Diablo-D3cubezzz: wowSep 27 01:11
Diablo-D3what a horrible documentSep 27 01:11
Diablo-D3its like affirmative action for womenSep 27 01:11
twitter1wordpress passwords are not working, schestowitzSep 27 01:12
Diablo-D3cubezzz: you know what the real problem is?Sep 27 01:12
Diablo-D3these women think they can enter a LUG without being a geekSep 27 01:13
Diablo-D3they are being pointed out because TADA! they're not geeks!Sep 27 01:13
cubezzzDiablo-D3, that seems unlikelySep 27 01:13
cubezzzwhy would they bother going to a LUG then?Sep 27 01:14
Diablo-D3because women... just.... do stupid shitSep 27 01:14
Diablo-D3and its not limited to womenSep 27 01:14
Diablo-D3Ive met men who do stupid shit tooSep 27 01:14
Diablo-D3pretty much 90% of the human population engages in doing stupid shit on a regular basisSep 27 01:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] Knife-edge flight is fun.Sep 27 01:17
cubezzzthe first time I went into #linux it was pretty hostileSep 27 01:22
cubezzzthat was EFNet and there was a lot of hostility in generalSep 27 01:23
Diablo-D3cubezzz: heySep 27 01:23
Diablo-D3I remember that placeSep 27 01:23
Diablo-D3it was awesomeSep 27 01:23
Diablo-D3the linux community was much better back thenSep 27 01:23
Diablo-D3if you were a douche, people were kind enough to tell you to your faceSep 27 01:23
Diablo-D3now we have douchebags running all over the place and shitting on linuxSep 27 01:23
cubezzzdo you still go there?Sep 27 01:24
Diablo-D3nawSep 27 01:24
Diablo-D3havent been back for yearsSep 27 01:24
Diablo-D3last time I went there lilo was still going thereSep 27 01:24
Diablo-D3he started what became freenode shortly afterSep 27 01:24
Diablo-D3and then, eventually, he got ran over.Sep 27 01:25
cubezzzwell this was back in 2003 and my memory of it was rather negativeSep 27 01:27
cubezzzI've joined other much friendier dev groups since thenSep 27 01:27
cubezzzDiablo-D3, not literally I hope?Sep 27 01:27
Diablo-D3yes, literally.Sep 27 01:28
Diablo-D3rob levin died from acute ford taurus poisoning.Sep 27 01:28
cubezzzon a bicycle tooSep 27 01:30
cubezzzyes, I see what happened on his wikipedia pageSep 27 01:30
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twitter1still reading http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x168.htmlSep 27 01:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Got round to working out the Digg, Twitter etc footer icons on WordPress. Still got categories to fix yetSep 27 01:47
twitter1It's like riding on a public bus in Tokyo (not really, people there are more subtle) ->    Many women complain that when they walk into a room of Linux enthusiasts, suddenly, the conversation stops, everyone turns around and looks, and few people even point to make sure their buddies can see what everyone is staring at.Sep 27 01:48
twitter1I can imagine someone whistling the theme from "the good the bad and the ugly"Sep 27 01:49
cubezzzI've never been to a LUG meetingSep 27 01:56
cubezzzI went to the TV centre for Amiga devs a couple of timesSep 27 01:57
cubezzzages agoSep 27 01:57
cubezzzit was pretty goodSep 27 01:57
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twitter1I've been to a few LUG meetings, but I've never lived in a place big enough to have a larger group, so there was never much going on.Sep 27 01:59
twitter1here's something ->   if your group has nine helpful and polite members, and one rude, sexist, loud member, most women are going to continue to stay away because of that one member.Sep 27 02:00
twitter1this is probably why M$ invests so much time trollingSep 27 02:00
cubezzzwell for me there's Toronto is sort of closeSep 27 02:07
cubezzzlocally there's almost nothingSep 27 02:07
twitter1wp passwords now workingSep 27 02:07
cubezzzwe used to have commodore user's meet at the Micahel Starr buildingSep 27 02:07
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 02:14
DaemonFCI really like the thoughtlessness of that entire "Don't boycott Ubuntu thing"Sep 27 02:17
DaemonFCpartially because of their extremely pro-Mono positionSep 27 02:17
DaemonFChow is apologizing for it and refusing to consider removing it any better than what Suse does?Sep 27 02:17
DaemonFCand how is having jono_ in here any better than having a Novell PR agent?Sep 27 02:18
DaemonFCUbuntu is talking about deeper integration of way worse things than Mono every day, but it seems to sail over the heads of everyone hereSep 27 02:19
DaemonFChow is trusting Amazon, Google, and Canonical with my data inherently "better" than trusting it to Microsoft "Windows Azure"?Sep 27 02:20
DaemonFCAnswer: It probably isn'tSep 27 02:20
DaemonFCI don't trust "cloud computing" services from anyone, any further than I can throw themSep 27 02:20
DaemonFCand rooting for ARM based netbooks as a vehicle for Linux adoption is completely backward for many reasons tooSep 27 02:21
DaemonFCfor one example, ARM has less producers than x86 which means less competition and higher pricesSep 27 02:21
DaemonFCfor another example, Mono compiles and runs on ARM, so you're not escaping Mono eitherSep 27 02:22
DaemonFCand another good reason you don't want to root for ARM/Linux netbooks is because your data will still be "in the cloud"Sep 27 02:22
DaemonFCI don't really care what I'm using as long as it is on fairly standard hardware which is plenty powerful to run real applications. Offsite backups are fine and maybe a great idea, but depending on "cloud" apps is probably worse in the long run than depending on WindowsSep 27 02:24
DaemonFCand cloud apps are definitely where Ubuntu is trying to goSep 27 02:24
DaemonFCI don't even think Ubuntu has a netbook edition which supports ARM anywaySep 27 02:25
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DaemonFCembracing Ubuntu for reasons of "freedom" is just bonehead stupid for more reasons than I even really want to get intoSep 27 02:26
DaemonFCDebian would be a much more sane choiceSep 27 02:26
DaemonFCasking Canonical to give you freedom is like asking Santa Claus to bring you a nice big fat lump of coalSep 27 02:26
DaemonFCI think a source of all the confusion over what is and isn't free software is deliberately spread by companies like CanonicalSep 27 02:33
DaemonFCthat doesn't make them evil, but you shouldn't trust them any more than any other company and you should realize that they'll only support hardware and things which make sense to their businessSep 27 02:34
DaemonFCDebian supports 12 architectures I believe, and they do it just because they canSep 27 02:35
DaemonFCCanonical/Ubuntu only supports 1 architecture (x86), 2 if you count x86-64Sep 27 02:35
twitter1thanks for the link to "how to get women into your LUG" http://boycottnovell.com/2009/09/25/do-not-boycott-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-73613Sep 27 02:40
DaemonFCthe GNOME desktop is also fundamentally flawed in the way a lot of proprietary software isSep 27 02:42
DaemonFCactually, more soSep 27 02:42
DaemonFCbecause I can actually fine tune just about any program on my Windows desktop into doing pretty much exactly what I want, and I can't do that in GNOMESep 27 02:42
DaemonFCthey're broken everything from audio encoding to saving a documentSep 27 02:43
DaemonFCKDE fixes a lot of what is wrong with GNOME in that it again becomes possible to fine tuneSep 27 02:43
DaemonFCunfortunately a lot of people I mention Linux to, they say "Oh, I tried that and it was impossible to do anything", and the first thing I always ask them was if it was brown ;)Sep 27 02:44
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DaemonFCunfortunately the world tends to make "standards" out of the dumbest, most useless crap, and so of course GNOME is getting more popularSep 27 02:45
DaemonFCIt's getting more popular because if you ask anyone what they want from their computer, 9 times out of 10 you hear "I want it to be easier". What they mean is that they want it to read their mind or just do something with the minimum amount of buttons pushed, but that necessarily involves dumbing it down. And even if you dumb it down, it still doesn't give them what they want because they also wanted it to be powerful and confSep 27 02:47
DaemonFCigurable at the same timeSep 27 02:47
DaemonFCcompanies like Apple have been dumbing down their software trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel for new users for decades, and they're really just pissing off people that already use the computer and people like my mom will still likely never use oneSep 27 02:48
twitter1It's funny how these things float on people's minds.Sep 27 02:50
Diablo-D3twitter1: its funny how much people failSep 27 02:50
Diablo-D3I wish people would shut up about it alreadySep 27 02:50
Diablo-D3this is why women hate linuxSep 27 02:50
Diablo-D3its because we keep using the w wordSep 27 02:50
Diablo-D3if we refuse to recognize their gender, they can't dramatroll us.Sep 27 02:50
DaemonFCreally what you get with GNOME is it lures people in to try it then they get exasperated at how useless it is and run screaming back to Windows or Mac because they can't get GNOME to do what they want or needSep 27 02:51
twitter1The other week, an intern at our company asked me for a "gender neutral password."  I stood dumbly for a minute trying to reconcile the request with the rarity of gender specific English.Sep 27 02:51
MinceRwomen hate linux?Sep 27 02:51
Diablo-D3MinceR: no, women hate menSep 27 02:51
MinceRtwitter1: proper, randomly generated passwords are gender neutral. :>Sep 27 02:51
DaemonFCMinceR, I don't think women tend to be techies as muchSep 27 02:51
twitter1It took a little more communication before I realized the intern wanted a guest login.Sep 27 02:51
DaemonFCit's not saying they're dumb, just less inclined to careSep 27 02:51
Diablo-D3twitter1: "password"Sep 27 02:51
DaemonFCShuttleworth probably meant that but blurted it out wrongSep 27 02:52
DaemonFCin my experience, just about every IT-related class is a major sausagefestSep 27 02:53
DaemonFCwith the exception of maybe 2-3 womenSep 27 02:53
DaemonFCso the phenomenon is real enoughSep 27 02:53
cubezzzDaemonFC, I doubt people would return to windows simply becausue they didn't like GNOMESep 27 03:17
DaemonFCI think that it is sending a lot of users back to WindowsSep 27 03:17
DaemonFCGNOME is really that bad/brokenSep 27 03:17
DaemonFCyou may hear a few GNOME zombies fanboys, and Windows/Microsoft haters say GNOME is the best thing since sliced breadSep 27 03:18
DaemonFCI stopped even trying to apologize for it, and I'd tell anyone to use KDE at this pointSep 27 03:18
cubezzzif one doesn't like GNOME there's KDE or TWM or whateverSep 27 03:18
Diablo-D3xfceSep 27 03:19
cubezzzbesides, I try to do as much as possible using text based programsSep 27 03:19
cubezzze.g. mutt instead of kmailSep 27 03:19
Diablo-D3I'm actually thinking about switching to xfceSep 27 03:20
DaemonFCand repositories only help you if the software you want is in themSep 27 03:21
DaemonFCI always seem to need some niche package that hasn't been packagedSep 27 03:21
DaemonFCAoTuv is a good exampleSep 27 03:21
cubezzzDiablo-D3, what are you using currently?Sep 27 03:21
Diablo-D3gnome customized to what I wantSep 27 03:22
cubezzzwell choice is goodSep 27 03:26
cubezzzI've written a couple of simple KDE progsSep 27 03:27
cubezzzplayed around with kdevelopSep 27 03:27
cubezzzschestowitz, Goldman Sachs donated to gnu :)Sep 27 03:43
Diablo-D3goldman sachs uses a lot of foss software, cubezzzSep 27 03:43
cubezzzI don't know much about Goldman SachsSep 27 03:45
cubezzzfinanical services company I assume?Sep 27 03:45
Diablo-D3very large oneSep 27 03:45
Diablo-D3they're sort of like the super heroes of wall streetSep 27 03:46
Diablo-D3except they're total dickholesSep 27 03:46
Diablo-D3so they're more like the apple/sun/cisco of wall streetSep 27 03:46
cubezzzhmmmSep 27 03:47
Diablo-D3they're very good at tending to their money treesSep 27 03:47
Diablo-D3they lost very little money in the recent economic downturnSep 27 03:47
cubezzzDiablo-D3, they seem Bullish on Red HatSep 27 03:48
*Diablo-D3 looksSep 27 03:49
Diablo-D3cubezzz: I'm bearish on red hatSep 27 03:49
Diablo-D3look at the p/eSep 27 03:49
cubezzzstock is near a 52 week highSep 27 03:49
Diablo-D3RoE over the past 5 years is too lowSep 27 03:50
Diablo-D3so its a pretty mediocre company investing wiseSep 27 03:50
cubezzznot if you bought in at $10 :)Sep 27 03:51
Diablo-D3ehSep 27 03:51
Diablo-D3lets say its $30 right nowSep 27 03:51
Diablo-D3the P/E would still be in the lower 20s.Sep 27 03:51
Diablo-D3and the RoE would still be too lowSep 27 03:52
Diablo-D3cubezzz: I only care about companies that have proven them selves to be worthy and are cheapSep 27 03:52
Diablo-D3redhat has not done that, and they're not cheap.Sep 27 03:52
cubezzzyes but it was as low as $3.XX a share at one pointSep 27 03:53
cubezzzunder valuedSep 27 03:53
Diablo-D3depends how you define under valuedSep 27 03:53
Diablo-D3the problem is their RoE is _still_ too lowSep 27 03:53
twitter1http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/237895Sep 27 03:53
Diablo-D3a dramatic drop in stock price would increase RoE in the long termSep 27 03:53
cubezzzif there's any chance of Red Hat becoming the next Microsoft, then I want a piece of that actionSep 27 03:54
Diablo-D3but you'd need a stock price around $6 or $7 without decreasing earningsSep 27 03:54
cubezzznever had any microsoft shares you seeSep 27 03:54
Diablo-D3at that point it would be worth buyingSep 27 03:54
Diablo-D3cubezzz: I dont care about flighty companies like microsoftSep 27 03:54
twitter1you can find that journal article on firehose and vote it up if you like it.Sep 27 03:54
cubezzzDiablo-D3, 9 splits?Sep 27 03:54
Diablo-D3cubezzz: I only care about making moneySep 27 03:54
Diablo-D3microsoft is not the kind of company you can consistently make money withSep 27 03:55
Diablo-D3lets say I ran simulations of the universeSep 27 03:55
Diablo-D3microsoft wouldnt have always came out the way it didSep 27 03:55
Diablo-D3it would have been a shitty betSep 27 03:55
cubezzzthat's trueSep 27 03:55
Diablo-D3I look for companies that have high chances of coming out the same way over and overSep 27 03:56
cubezzzso you don't bother with microsoft or red hat stocks I gather?Sep 27 03:56
Diablo-D3not at those prices noSep 27 03:56
cubezzzI could sell off at $30 RHTSep 27 03:56
twitter1the kind of people who have M$FT http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/217729Sep 27 03:56
Diablo-D3if red hat dropped to 1/3rd of it's current price tommorow, it'd be worth itSep 27 03:56
twitter1"Where's my money, Steve?"  sob.Sep 27 03:57
Diablo-D3now lets look at msftSep 27 03:57
Diablo-D3huhSep 27 03:59
Diablo-D3how bizzareSep 27 03:59
Diablo-D3at msft's current price, its actually worth buyingSep 27 03:59
DaemonFCyeah, they've gone from massively overvalued to massively undervaluedSep 27 04:00
cubezzz5 years ago RHT was $11.50 per shareSep 27 04:00
DaemonFCthe stock market swings between extremesSep 27 04:00
cubezzzyeah it's crazySep 27 04:00
DaemonFCeventually Microsoft will start swinging the other waySep 27 04:01
DaemonFCgood chance to double your moneySep 27 04:01
DaemonFCRed Hat, I think, will probably continue to grow, but much slowerSep 27 04:01
Diablo-D3I'd say its worth buying up through $30 or soSep 27 04:01
DaemonFCI wouldn't buy Red Hat right nowSep 27 04:02
cubezzzno guarantees either waySep 27 04:02
DaemonFCthey've become more of a potential liability than assetSep 27 04:02
cubezzzlooking at the 5 year chart for MSFTSep 27 04:03
DaemonFCthe market is more or less flooded with software, and Microsoft has hit a lull because they don't use a subscription model in all casesSep 27 04:03
DaemonFCthey should, but they don'tSep 27 04:03
DaemonFCwould ensure a fairly constant revenue streamSep 27 04:03
Diablo-D3past performance does not indicate future performance.Sep 27 04:04
DaemonFCeventually 2000/XP and Server 2003 will be too old to keep going and you'll see companies upgrading to Server 2008 R2 and Windows 7Sep 27 04:04
cubezzz5 years ago = 27.99 per shareSep 27 04:04
DaemonFCa subscription model would do a better job of keeping business customers on a leash thoughSep 27 04:05
cubezzzcurrently around $25Sep 27 04:05
cubezzzwell, we'll see I guess :)Sep 27 04:05
cubezzzI'd say Microsoft's glory days are overSep 27 04:06
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Diablo-D3maybeSep 27 04:06
cubezzzBuffet doesn't like tech stocks thoughSep 27 04:08
cubezzzCoke and Gillette for himSep 27 04:08
Diablo-D3he doesnt buy into stocks he doesnt understandSep 27 04:08
Diablo-D3very rarely do I like tech stocks because they have very high p/esSep 27 04:09
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cubezzzDiablo-D3, well Gates was the richest guy in the world for quite a whileSep 27 04:10
Diablo-D3he still isSep 27 04:10
DaemonFCnoSep 27 04:11
Diablo-D3buffet gave up the spotSep 27 04:11
DaemonFCCarlos Slim has more money than Bill GatesSep 27 04:11
DaemonFChttp://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/54/400list08_Steven-Ballmer_ZBED.htmlSep 27 04:13
cubezzzthe top three are all down, but yeah Gates is back at #1Sep 27 04:13
cubezzzhttp://www.forbes.com/2009/03/11/worlds-richest-people-billionaires-2009-billionaires_land.htmlSep 27 04:13
cubezzzas of March 2009Sep 27 04:13
cubezzzBuffet lost a ton of cashSep 27 04:14
cubezzzI seem to remember Gates getting close to 100 billion at one pointSep 27 04:15
cubezzzthat's just scary :)Sep 27 04:15
DaemonFCnoSep 27 04:19
DaemonFChe's never been over $50 billion that I can recallSep 27 04:19
DaemonFCstill that's an awful lot of moneySep 27 04:19
DaemonFCmore than any one person should be allowed to haveSep 27 04:19
DaemonFC:PSep 27 04:19
DaemonFCif I had $50 billion I'd probably give most of it to my favorite charitiesSep 27 04:22
DaemonFCleave myself a billion or so to live comfortably onSep 27 04:22
DaemonFCI wouldn't know what to do with $50 billionSep 27 04:22
DaemonFCI wouldn't die with all that in the bank though, that's for sureSep 27 04:23
DaemonFCpeople like Buffett and Gates and Slim disgust meSep 27 04:23
DaemonFCit's like they're competing to see who can die with the most moneySep 27 04:23
twitter1here's a new way for corporate america to screw you.  accidentally email sensitive information to you.  the federal government will then kill your email without warning and disclose all of it to the bank.  http://slashdot.org/submission/1080215/Federal-Judge-Orders-GMail-Account-Nuked-Over-BankSep 27 04:24
twitter1Google took the time and energy to fight and lost.Sep 27 04:25
twitter1Other ISPs would probably have complied without a fight.Sep 27 04:25
twitter1The only real solution is to run your own mail server.Sep 27 04:25
twitter1But ISPs forbid such things.Sep 27 04:25
twitter1and most email is spam that comes from rooted Windoze boxes anyway.Sep 27 04:26
DaemonFCtwitter, Get one on a server that's not in the USSep 27 04:26
DaemonFCeasySep 27 04:26
Diablo-D3twitter1: whats really funny, though, is the account probably doesnt existSep 27 04:27
cubezzzthat was gmail wasn't it?Sep 27 04:27
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, I think his point was that this could be your email, his, mine....Sep 27 04:27
cubezzzthey can't kill my email :)Sep 27 04:27
cubezzztwiitter1, I have my own email serverSep 27 04:28
twitter1yes, it was gmail.  they were forced to hand over contact information.Sep 27 04:29
DaemonFCand the bank was the one that screwed upSep 27 04:30
DaemonFCthat's just infuriatingSep 27 04:30
twitter1so, those who suggested that I just get a gmail account for Slashdot submissions were not the best informed sources.Sep 27 04:30
cubezzzI always assume my mail can be read by othersSep 27 04:30
twitter1anyone's gmail contact information is just an "accidental" email away from disclosureSep 27 04:30
twitter1you could encrypt your email, even using other people's serversSep 27 04:31
cubezzzyesSep 27 04:31
twitter1the problem is that email is not as anonymous as people think it is.Sep 27 04:31
twitter1publishing someone's email address is as good as publishing their name, it's a bad deal for whistle blowersSep 27 04:32
cubezzzthat's why I use IRC for my secret plans :-0Sep 27 04:32
twitter1Whistle blowers protect all of us from abuse.Sep 27 04:33
twitter1Without anonymity, people who complain can be targeted for retaliation.Sep 27 04:33
twitter1The bad guys already know who I am and actively work to smear me.Sep 27 04:33
twitter1It's not a good feeling.Sep 27 04:34
jono_DaemonFC, ?Sep 27 04:34
jono_<DaemonFC> and how is having jono_ in here any better than having a Novell PR agent?Sep 27 04:34
DaemonFCexactlySep 27 04:34
twitter1are you employed by Novell, jono_?Sep 27 04:35
DaemonFCyou guys are apologizing for Mono, pushing "cloud computing", and only supporting one architectureSep 27 04:35
DaemonFChow is that better?Sep 27 04:35
jono_twitter, noSep 27 04:35
jono_DaemonFC, we don't apologize for Mono, we merely support it because there is no significant reason not to, we do push the cloud, but thats because it is a huge opportunity and common in the marketplace and we support many archs (x86, AMD64, Arm, PowerPC)Sep 27 04:36
*jono_ is now known as jonoSep 27 04:36
DaemonFCUbuntu has too many problems to use as my personal desktop OSSep 27 04:37
twitter1who is "we" jono and why don't you see the patent trap in mono?Sep 27 04:37
DaemonFCI pity the fool that depends on it professionallySep 27 04:37
jonotwitter, we is Canonical, the company I work for, and I see no significant patent trap for many reasons, and the Ubuntu project won't react to hearsaySep 27 04:38
jonoDaemonFC, what problems?Sep 27 04:38
twitter1until M$ gives real assurances, you are supporting something on hearsay.Sep 27 04:39
twitter1and blind faith.Sep 27 04:39
jonotwitter, our patent policy is to deal with patent threats that are real as opposed to perceivedSep 27 04:39
jonotwitter, dude, the same argument applies to the kernelSep 27 04:39
twitter1no, it does notSep 27 04:39
DaemonFCGNOME et all, outdated packages for things like Vorbis encoding, bugs in the kernels you build, bugs in the Pulseaudio systemSep 27 04:40
jonoIBM have got a patent for numbers and letters on screen at the same timeSep 27 04:40
jonodoes that mean we don't ship anything that could display numbers and letters?Sep 27 04:40
twitter1IBM has never threatened free software.Sep 27 04:40
jonoDaemonFC, why don't you help us make it better?Sep 27 04:40
DaemonFCwell, Pulseaudio is another one of those things that is one giant problem masquerading as a slew of solutionsSep 27 04:40
twitter1no one but M$ has pulled M$ stunts.Sep 27 04:40
jonotwitter, that doesn't matter, it is still possible IBM can take us downSep 27 04:40
jonoand I see no difference between that argument between MS and IBMSep 27 04:40
DaemonFCjono: Then there's the part where things like VLC are sabotaged and useless to meSep 27 04:41
jonotwitter, what MS stunts?Sep 27 04:41
DaemonFCunless I want to compile it myself (h.264 encoding is missing entirely)Sep 27 04:41
jonoDaemonFC, so again, can you help us make things better? now is a great time to contribute to KarmicSep 27 04:41
jonoDaemonFC, maybe take part in bug triage so we can fix these issues?Sep 27 04:41
twitter1SCO, the Novell/M$ and other company shakedowns, many many threats.Sep 27 04:41
DaemonFCa lot of TV tuners including mine have no drivers (that's an all around Linux problem)Sep 27 04:41
twitter1I've made a log of M$ patent treats.  Let me get it for you.Sep 27 04:41
twitter1http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/219107Sep 27 04:42
jonotwitter, my point is that the argument against Mono is that we *could* be sued, and my argument is that applies to the entire stackSep 27 04:42
DaemonFCjono, It's not really any one thing, it's just a lot of smaller issues that in themselves I'd probably ignoreSep 27 04:42
twitter1I'm not making this stuff up, I'm not devious enough by half.Sep 27 04:42
DaemonFCbut together they become a major usability problemSep 27 04:42
jonoDaemonFC, sure, and lots of these smaller things could be hugely improved if you contributeSep 27 04:42
jonoDaemonFC, let me know what you would like to work on and I could help you get startedSep 27 04:42
DaemonFCI wouldn't even know where to beginSep 27 04:43
jonotwitter, I am not suggesting you are, but to think that MS are the only people at risk of suing us is short-sightedSep 27 04:43
twitter1M$ is basically promising to sue free software vendors like Canonical.  RMS described mono use as, "putting your head in the lion's jaws."Sep 27 04:43
jonoDaemonFC, what kind of areas do you like to contribute to in Open Source?Sep 27 04:43
jonomaybe I can help you get started?Sep 27 04:43
cubezzz;-)Sep 27 04:43
twitter1risk has to be weighed by probability.  the chances of M$ suing you are basically 100%Sep 27 04:44
DaemonFCI wouldn't know how to contribute really, I just compile things for myself or use the Windows app in Wine if I'm feeling particularly lazySep 27 04:44
twitter1the chances of others, like IBM suing are low.Sep 27 04:44
jonotwitter, there is a big different between a company making noises and a company doing somethinhg, particularly when a company has shareholders to satisfySep 27 04:44
jonoDaemonFC, it sounds like you have great skills to offer!Sep 27 04:44
twitter1no other companies are even making noise.Sep 27 04:44
jonoDaemonFC, have you ever thought about learning packaging?Sep 27 04:44
cubezzzjono, I did some porting to zaurus of gnu utilitiesSep 27 04:45
jonohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuideSep 27 04:45
jonocubezzz, thats awesome :)Sep 27 04:45
jonotwitter, thats not the caseSep 27 04:45
DaemonFChad considered learning at one pointSep 27 04:45
jonotwitter, many companies have an underlying patent threatSep 27 04:45
DaemonFCI've made RPMs before if I couldn't find oneSep 27 04:45
DaemonFCI'm not familiar with creating Debian packagesSep 27 04:45
twitter1yeah, but which companies are actively threatening?Sep 27 04:45
jonotwitter, and to be frank, just because they make noise doesnt mean anything, if you think that way, you will spend more nights unhappy in your bed than happySep 27 04:45
twitter1ha haSep 27 04:46
jonothe same applies to the news, do you believe every possible threat on the news?Sep 27 04:46
jonotwitter, I know your heart is the right placeSep 27 04:46
jonoI respect the intentionSep 27 04:46
cubezzzjono, most of us don't trust MicrosoftSep 27 04:46
twitter1no one trusts M$.Sep 27 04:46
cubezzzI've been around a while, so I know a bit about themSep 27 04:46
jonoand I believe in free software, but we need to also not just jump everytime they make a noiseSep 27 04:46
twitter1you should also not jump everytime they make a second rate language like .NETSep 27 04:47
jonocubezzz, sure, but remember MS are a huge companies, with *share holders*Sep 27 04:47
twitter1there have to be payoffs for riskSep 27 04:47
jonotwitter, I don't believe I have doneSep 27 04:47
jonoin fact, I don't believe I have ever jumped to MonoSep 27 04:47
twitter1mono is a risk with very little payoffSep 27 04:47
jonoand I instead promote and support PythonSep 27 04:47
jonoand we write all our Ubuntu apps in PythonSep 27 04:47
twitter1if that's so, why tell people that you "support mono"?Sep 27 04:47
jonotwitter, it's not that we say we support mono, we just won't remove it until someone has a cast iron reason toSep 27 04:48
jonoand "people worried about patents" is not enough of a reasonSep 27 04:48
twitter1why include it?Sep 27 04:48
jonowe wrote a patent policy to outline this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PatentPolicySep 27 04:48
twitter1and tomtom is not a good reason ;-)Sep 27 04:48
jonowe are keen to explore threats, but we deal with rights holdersSep 27 04:49
jonotwitter, we include it because there is no solid reason not toSep 27 04:49
jonothere is no cast iron reason other than paranoia to not include itSep 27 04:49
jonoand we simply won't sacrifice being able to ship some great apps such as TomBoy and F-Spot because of paranoiaSep 27 04:49
jonoif people don't like that, just use another distro, there are plenty of options :)Sep 27 04:49
twitter1the "rights holder" in mono is not interested in dealing, and you can see the pile of corpses from those who tried beforeSep 27 04:49
jonoif there *is* a significant patent threat, we will review it as per the published patent policySep 27 04:50
jonotwitter, pile of corpses? dude, this is not From Dusk Till DawnSep 27 04:50
jonoit's frigging software :)Sep 27 04:50
cubezzzwell we can just yum uninstall :)Sep 27 04:50
twitter1Canonical is a real company with real people like you making a living off it.Sep 27 04:50
jonotwitter, hah, we don't live off MonoSep 27 04:50
cubezzzyum remove ratherSep 27 04:51
jonowe don't make any money from itSep 27 04:51
twitter1Other companies just as real and far more profitable than Canonical have been burnt trying to deal with M$.Sep 27 04:51
jonoDaemonFC, sorry, I forgot to respond - if you have RPM experience, that is a great start for learning Debian packagingSep 27 04:51
*Diablo-D3 wonders who jono isSep 27 04:51
jonotwitter, I disagreeSep 27 04:51
jonopeople have been burned, and I don'yt deny thatSep 27 04:52
cubezzzoh, Ubuntu guySep 27 04:52
jonoand I don't deny MS have done some stupid thingsSep 27 04:52
Diablo-D3oh, boringSep 27 04:52
jonobut we simply won't remove Mono while there is a perceived threatSep 27 04:52
Diablo-D3jono: does ubuntu have mono in the default install?Sep 27 04:52
jonothere are percieved threats throughout the stack - in the kernel, X and elsewhere, should we remove those too?Sep 27 04:52
jonoDaemonFC, yepSep 27 04:52
jonooopsSep 27 04:52
jonoDiablo-D3, yepSep 27 04:52
cubezzzdamn, all we need now is zilog to show up :)Sep 27 04:52
Diablo-D3wow, how wastefulSep 27 04:52
Diablo-D3there are no useful mono apps, why install it by default"?Sep 27 04:53
jonoDiablo-D3, thats not true, TomBoy and F-Spot are awesome appsSep 27 04:53
jonohence why we ship itSep 27 04:53
jonoif there were no good apps we wouldnt :)Sep 27 04:53
twitter1jono, your users are not demanding mono http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/11/mono-in-ubuntu-backfires/Sep 27 04:53
Diablo-D3tomboy crashed all the times I tried to use itSep 27 04:53
Diablo-D3gnote is pretty superior to itSep 27 04:53
jonotwitter, hah, not quiteSep 27 04:53
jonowe have way more users who don't care than do careSep 27 04:53
Diablo-D3and f-spot is not nearly as good as gthumbSep 27 04:53
jonook, well folks, feel free to use another distro :)Sep 27 04:54
twitter1Roy has many other good articles about the threat mono is to free software http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aboycottnovell.com+mono&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Sep 27 04:54
Diablo-D3I do use another distroSep 27 04:54
jonowe know we can't make everyone happySep 27 04:54
DaemonFCUbuntu has a limited amount of space on the LiveCD jono, I'd throw Mono and friends overboard and replace them with better applicationsSep 27 04:54
Diablo-D3I think you've heard of the one I useSep 27 04:54
jonoso let's just agree to disagreeSep 27 04:54
Diablo-D3its called debianSep 27 04:54
jonoDiablo-D3, cool :)Sep 27 04:54
twitter1eek, I agree with DaemonFCSep 27 04:54
jonodebian is awesome :)Sep 27 04:54
Diablo-D3Ive been using debian for almost 15 yearsSep 27 04:54
jonowell thanks for the chat, folks, I have to runSep 27 04:54
Diablo-D3why is it, back in the day, we didnt have this shit?Sep 27 04:54
twitter1take careSep 27 04:54
jonotake care :)Sep 27 04:54
cubezzzlaterSep 27 04:54
Diablo-D3seeya jonoSep 27 04:54
*jono slopes off :)Sep 27 04:55
twitter1Making a deal with M$ is like shaking hands with a shark.  When you feel a slight tug, you had better look down to see if you still have a hand.Sep 27 04:56
cubezzzyeah remember Jaws :)Sep 27 04:56
twitter1I've seen some better movies on Nature.Sep 27 04:57
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 27 04:57
twitter1surfboards with camerasSep 27 04:57
twitter1you get to see the great white power its way out of the gloomy depths and bangSep 27 04:57
DaemonFCC# is not even an ANSI standardSep 27 04:58
DaemonFCthat's pretty hilariousSep 27 04:58
DaemonFCit's easier to buy off the ISO and ECMA I guessSep 27 04:59
cubezzzhmmm, interesting Debian was before Red HatSep 27 05:04
DaemonFCDebian is one of the oldest surviving distributionsSep 27 05:05
DaemonFCand predates Red Hat by 2 years I thinkSep 27 05:06
twitter1thrivingSep 27 05:06
DaemonFCwell, there's so many distributions that stalled out and diedSep 27 05:06
DaemonFChundreds of themSep 27 05:06
twitter1a free market is like thatSep 27 05:06
DaemonFCsurviving is quite an accomplishment for a Linux distroSep 27 05:06
twitter1you would not judge restaurants to be a bad business model, but most go out of business in 5 yearsSep 27 05:07
cubezzzwell Tanenbaum was wrongSep 27 05:07
DaemonFCtwitter, there's also plenty of distros that almost nobody has any interest in that are propped up by one personSep 27 05:07
cubezzzhe predicted Hurd would replace Linux :)Sep 27 05:07
DaemonFCyou can't float a failed restaurant around forever for freeSep 27 05:07
DaemonFCso comparing Linux to a restaurant is a bad ideaSep 27 05:07
cubezzzthat's the cool thing thoughSep 27 05:08
DaemonFCif you define success as you're the loss leader that isn't making any money but drawing in tons of users, Ubuntu is successfulSep 27 05:08
cubezzzyou want to support it you canSep 27 05:08
twitter1I thought Canonical had broken evenSep 27 05:08
DaemonFCif you define success by how profitable the distro is, there's only maybe two or three that are a successSep 27 05:09
DaemonFCtwitter1, Canonical is running at a loss stillSep 27 05:09
twitter1I define software success by how well it gets things done.  Debian gets things done and will for the foreseeable futureSep 27 05:09
DaemonFCa very large money pit is what I pictured from the way Shuttleworth said that "We're not even close to breaking even"Sep 27 05:09
twitter1that was a couple of years ago, I thinkSep 27 05:10
DaemonFCtwitter1, They still aren't breaking evenSep 27 05:10
DaemonFCthey're reselling a lot of commercial software that has a big demandSep 27 05:10
twitter1Debian has a large community of developers and users that don't depend on money.Sep 27 05:10
DaemonFCtheir cut of the sale is not much thoughSep 27 05:10
DaemonFCthey're a little less of a money pit than they were two years ago but they're still a loss leaderSep 27 05:11
twitter1anyway, if Ubuntu has money for you in packaging, go get it.Sep 27 05:11
DaemonFCtwitter1, Debian has never wanted to make a profit, they just want to get the bills paidSep 27 05:11
DaemonFCthey've done it for 16 yearsSep 27 05:11
DaemonFCI'd call Debian a successSep 27 05:11
twitter1right, Debian is a user driven distributionSep 27 05:12
twitter1it won't be going anywhere soonSep 27 05:12
DaemonFCyou have to define success by what the maintainer of the distro is trying to get out of itSep 27 05:12
twitter1them and the usersSep 27 05:12
twitter1I don't think there's anyone else in the Debian equationSep 27 05:12
DaemonFCI don't think many people feel as comfortable donating to a company (Canonical) as to a non profit foundations (Debian)Sep 27 05:12
DaemonFCyou kind of expect a company to pay their own billsSep 27 05:13
cubezzzFedora and Embedix for me (so far)Sep 27 05:13
DaemonFCor to sell a product at a price people will paySep 27 05:13
twitter1They should feel comfortable paying for Canonical services, that's what being a good company is all about.Sep 27 05:13
DaemonFCtwitter1, that's the curse that every company pushing desktop Linux facesSep 27 05:14
twitter1Canonical is in a good position as M$'s monopoly crumbles.Sep 27 05:14
DaemonFCHow do they compel you to pay for services?Sep 27 05:14
DaemonFCSo far none have been able to solve that problemSep 27 05:14
twitter1Companies make money by providing a service worth paying for.Sep 27 05:14
DaemonFCMandriva went bankrupt trying to figure out how to sell desktop LinuxSep 27 05:14
twitter1The service industry for M$ is many times larger than M$ itself and there's no reason it could not swing over to free software.Sep 27 05:15
twitter1In fact, there are many reasons for those companies to make the jump.  Vista being #1Sep 27 05:15
DaemonFCwell, a lot of those companies are heavily dependent on WindowsSep 27 05:16
twitter1Windows 7 will be a footnote proving what a failure Vista was in the first place.Sep 27 05:16
cubezzzpeople will pay for services they want or needSep 27 05:16
DaemonFCbut I suppose if Linux got more users, you'd need things like antivirusSep 27 05:16
twitter1not a chanceSep 27 05:16
DaemonFCbecause attackers would start exploiting the lax attitude that Linux takes to securitySep 27 05:16
twitter1Windows suffers infections and viruses from problems that have nothing to do with GNU/LinuxSep 27 05:16
cubezzzDaemonFC, my server is attacked all the time, they never get thoughSep 27 05:17
DaemonFClike that security hole that's existed since the 2.4 kernels and jsut got fixed last monthSep 27 05:17
twitter1we've been through this many times before FC.Sep 27 05:17
twitter1don't troll us againSep 27 05:17
DaemonFCthe reason the people divulged the exploit code was cause they got tired of Torvalds insisting that it was not seriousSep 27 05:17
twitter1please knock off the BS.Sep 27 05:17
cubezzzthis one's for Diablo-D3Sep 27 05:18
cubezzzhttp://www.darkandpink.com/comics/20080325.gifSep 27 05:18
DaemonFCsome of these industries that profit off Windows would transition to Linux if that's where the users wentSep 27 05:18
DaemonFCcause users draw attackersSep 27 05:18
twitter1sigh.Sep 27 05:18
*twitter1 ignores DaemonFCSep 27 05:18
DaemonFCwell, very little has changed, visibly, in an Ubuntu desktop since 3 years agoSep 27 05:20
DaemonFCand in some cases the default setup has gotten worseSep 27 05:20
DaemonFCthe whole thing just feels kind of flimsy and designed by committee, apparmor and things like Empathy are just "wtf?" decisionsSep 27 05:21
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DaemonFChttp://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10361785-16.htmlSep 27 05:24
DaemonFCmore Matt Asay :)Sep 27 05:24
cubezzzFree software is not deadSep 27 05:28
cubezzzgnu is not deadSep 27 05:28
cubezzzso much for AsaySep 27 05:29
DaemonFCyeah, I kind of faded out when he got to interoperabilitySep 27 05:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #GNU #Linux Development in #India (Gujarati) http://bit.ly/1rfPJSep 27 05:32
DaemonFCif Microsoft were to be so kind as to publish all their protocols, file formats, etc, there would be interoperabilitySep 27 05:32
cubezzzhe's trying to diminish Stallman's influenceSep 27 05:32
DaemonFCthey don't publish all that which should tell you that they are not seriousSep 27 05:32
cubezzzhere's a good comment:Sep 27 05:33
DaemonFCthat's been my main problem with Microsoft all along, obfuscated protocols and file formatsSep 27 05:33
cubezzz"if it's Free (GPL etc) licensed they know they won't ever have to pay someone else to use their own improved code, which would be galling."Sep 27 05:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #libtheora 1.1 (of #Ogg #Theora ) Released http://bit.ly/zEWSE http://bit.ly/2eSZ9wSep 27 05:34
DaemonFCcubezzz, WMA, OOXML, SMB, etc. are kind of like blowing up bridges and poisoning wellsSep 27 05:34
cubezzzanyways, he's just trying to be provocativeSep 27 05:34
cubezzzI don't actually fine WMA to be _too_ much of a problemSep 27 05:34
DaemonFCthey're just there to obstruct and harass Microsoft competitorsSep 27 05:34
cubezzzbut smb yes, that is a problemSep 27 05:35
cubezzzfindSep 27 05:35
cubezzzthe GPL mattersSep 27 05:35
DaemonFCif you can use Vorbis, go for itSep 27 05:35
cubezzzStallman was rightSep 27 05:35
DaemonFCif you can't use Vorbis, use MPEG-4 AACSep 27 05:35
DaemonFCI never use Windows MediaSep 27 05:36
DaemonFCif a file is only available in Windows Media, I won't take the fileSep 27 05:36
DaemonFCeven though I have WindowsSep 27 05:36
cubezzzhe and others are blurring the issues hereSep 27 05:37
DaemonFCthe fact that people are ignorant enough to actually use it really offends meSep 27 05:37
cubezzza lot of people confuse open source and FOSSSep 27 05:37
DaemonFCwell, if you can avoid making a fuss, you probably shouldSep 27 05:37
DaemonFCespecially if the stuff the company releases is GPL or BSD licensedSep 27 05:38
DaemonFCwho cares what term they use?Sep 27 05:38
DaemonFCit's still freeSep 27 05:38
cubezzzI'm not sure that the open source guys use the GPLSep 27 05:38
DaemonFCcubezzz, If you gave me $100,000 and insisted on calling it a pile of horse shit, I would certainly not argueSep 27 05:39
DaemonFCI don't know why the free software crowd always does try to pick a fightSep 27 05:39
cubezzzI'm not FSF but I am a FOSS "believer" and userSep 27 05:39
DaemonFCgood for youSep 27 05:39
DaemonFCI'm not going to insist on a political term for something that is what it isSep 27 05:40
cubezzzthat's a specious statementSep 27 05:40
cubezzzwhat I mean is the GPL protects _your_ _code_Sep 27 05:41
cubezzzBSD license does NOTSep 27 05:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] UK Government Accused of Holding Free(dom) Software Back http://bit.ly/Ldm18 http://bit.ly/3ALMqkSep 27 05:41
DaemonFCwell, the code is licensed however the author of the code licensed itSep 27 05:41
twitter1GPL protects your code and yourself and your usersSep 27 05:41
DaemonFCBSD is fineSep 27 05:41
DaemonFCBSD is a free software licenseSep 27 05:41
DaemonFCeven by Stallman's "four freedoms" definition, BSD gives you free softwareSep 27 05:42
cubezzzpeople who want to take GPL code and not release the source to their changes. They want to take code but not return the favor. Right?Sep 27 05:44
DaemonFCthe only real difference between BSD and GPL is that BSD gives you the freedom to shareSep 27 05:44
DaemonFCGPL makes it mandatorySep 27 05:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Intel Chips Turn More #Evil http://bit.ly/tcz5HSep 27 05:45
cubezzzok, well I wouldn't release code under the BSD licenseSep 27 05:45
vcentyou dont have to share you code if you use the GPLSep 27 05:45
DaemonFCmandatory is kind of the opposite of freedomSep 27 05:45
DaemonFCif my work calls and tells me there will be a mandatory meeting, that means that I have the freedom to go to the meeting or get fired?Sep 27 05:46
DaemonFCthat's not freedom, it's mandatory, a compulsionSep 27 05:47
cubezzzBut if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.Sep 27 05:47
DaemonFCtherefore, the GPL could be said to be the opposite of freedom by compelling you to share your modifications under the threat of being suedSep 27 05:47
DaemonFCBSD gives you the freedom to do your own thing with the codeSep 27 05:48
DaemonFCthere have been a few high profile examples of companies like Microsoft or Apple using BSD licensed code, but they complied with the author's requirementsSep 27 05:49
DaemonFCgenerally, it's not smart to make a massive fork even if you can get away with it and make the resulting product proprietarySep 27 05:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Obama Makes the #RIAA / #MPAA Happy http://bit.ly/2PZxRiSep 27 05:50
cubezzzI don't have any big problem with BSDSep 27 05:52
cubezzzI just wouldn't release code under the BSD licenseSep 27 05:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Advocates Use Lies to Promote Agenda http://techdirt.com/articles/20090925/0811426323.shtmlSep 27 05:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeFoftware FUD Relies on Ignorance http://bit.ly/16T3WISep 27 05:53
DaemonFCFreeBSD is a good operating system, and there's nothing wrong with using it or contributing code to it under the BSD licenseSep 27 05:53
vcentbsd gives you more freedom that GPL, , plus if you have to spend your life explaining the definition of the word "FREE" to everyone, there is something wron.Sep 27 05:53
vcentwrong*Sep 27 05:53
DaemonFCwell, if I made a program and licensed it BSD and Microsoft or Apple uses it, then I shouldn't have a problem with thatSep 27 05:54
DaemonFCcause I knew it might happenSep 27 05:54
DaemonFCand why should I discriminate against them more than any other person or business?Sep 27 05:55
cubezzzexactly why I wouldn't use the BSD licenseSep 27 05:55
vcentso you would never use a MacSep 27 05:55
vcentor appleSep 27 05:56
cubezzzthat's correctSep 27 05:56
vcentsame here LOLSep 27 05:56
DaemonFCI would, probably not at the price point they're atSep 27 05:57
DaemonFCI don't have anything against their system thoughSep 27 05:57
cubezzzI would use BSD as a server thoughSep 27 05:57
cubezzzbut for releasing my own code I would almost certainly use the GPLSep 27 05:58
vcentI find the GPL limiting, and giving me less freedoms that other licenses, I think it's what i holding the GPL back to some degree.Sep 27 05:58
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cubezzzwell, I can only speak for myselfSep 27 05:58
cubezzzif someone else wants to use the BSD license they canSep 27 05:58
vcentthat would be a good freedom,Sep 27 05:59
cubezzzyes, the author decidesSep 27 06:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft CEO: We Screwed up with Windows Mobile http://bit.ly/45Amj8Sep 27 06:01
twitter1ut oh, the aptly named skud has homed in on Bruce Perens.  http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/27/women-in-floss-tell-bruce-perens-you-exist/Sep 27 06:12
twitter1Perens got caught up in the RMS attack and was trolled here http://lwn.net/Articles/348459/Sep 27 06:15
twitter1most of what he says makes sense and is what any sensible person would thinkSep 27 06:15
twitter1Wow, here's what Bruce thought at the time -> IMO, someone who espoused that sort of feeling during RMS talk was primed for this to happen before it did, looking for a fight, and towed any number of people looking to be politically correct along with them.  I saw Lefty at the Community Summit and he was totally sickly nonlinear about this. He had a cry in his voice the whole time he explained it to me, and ran off in a huff when I didn't buy it.Sep 27 06:16
schestowitzAttempts to diminish RMS' influenceSep 27 06:21
schestowitzAsay tooSep 27 06:21
schestowitzNothing newSep 27 06:21
schestowitzThese are people who never liked Free software, do they jump on opportunities to slimeSep 27 06:21
schestowitzSusan did it with ShuttleworthSep 27 06:21
schestowitzShe had disdain for Ubuntu, so she saw the open letter to MarkS and used it as "reason"Sep 27 06:22
schestowitzLet's keep up the good fight and not pay attention to trolling like Asay'sSep 27 06:22
schestowitzBN made the FP of Reddit for defending RMS yesterdaySep 27 06:22
twitter1Uhhh, this is a new attack on Bruce Perens.Sep 27 06:24
twitter1what Bruce also said and meant ->  I suspect gender-based differences in interest, and do not have a good call on how much of this is nature vs. nurture.Sep 27 06:28
twitter1-> I am not yet accepting that the reason that the other women stay away is that women are too weak to counter the social issues.Sep 27 06:29
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twitter1here he is, after about 25 posts, talking to skud.  this is an interesting and new accusation. http://lwn.net/Articles/349399/Sep 27 06:33
twitter1he claims people are paid to act like free software community members, just to make the free software community look bad!Sep 27 06:33
twitter1->  The reason I am asking is that I have had people do similar stuff to me, and when I've explored I find that they have no real connection to any project and are more likely someone who is paid to make us look bad.Sep 27 06:34
twitter1Bruce should know about these things.Sep 27 06:34
twitter1->      Thanks for the data, I am really not trying to have a head in sand. My point was that there are too few women participating. That is equally true if there are 2000 rather than 200. It seems that things would be different if there were 20,000 and more different with 200,000. I am still trying to understand why, so few are participating, and I thank you for the assistance with articles.Sep 27 06:41
twitter1lefty harrasses Bruce about the Virgin of Emacs http://lwn.net/Articles/353781/Sep 27 06:42
twitter1I did not know this about Bruce http://lwn.net/Articles/348714/Sep 27 06:43
twitter1Bruce really thinks that women are not interested in free software and he also thinks that women are not interested in working on software without reward.  He's not sure why, so the quote used against him is taken out of context.Sep 27 06:52
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twitter1hmmm, lots of bad stuff here http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidentsSep 27 07:04
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christizohiSep 27 07:10
christizoi r come here to saySep 27 07:10
christizogimme all your moniezSep 27 07:11
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twitter1christizo was not a very good salesmanSep 27 07:16
schestowitzJust done watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I5Fl1Qn-Do&feature=PlayList&p=C2A021D1A1CBD633&index=0Sep 27 07:31
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schestowitzhttp://mpwoodward.posterous.com/richard-stallman-is-not-the-bad-guy-boycott-nSep 27 07:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @madhusudancs: #pyconindia Logo and T-Shirt is reappy (yes I am aware of the typo) bad.Sep 27 07:51
twitternice commentary from woodwardSep 27 08:04
schestowitzhttp://www.gnu.org/philosophy/lessig-fsfs-intro.htmlSep 27 08:05
twitterYeah, I have a signed copy of that book on my shelf.  :)Sep 27 08:15
schestowitzMeh. My borther has just been accepted at Intel.Sep 27 08:16
schestowitzLike my brother in lawSep 27 08:17
twitteraccepted as what?Sep 27 08:17
schestowitzAnd here I am blasting themSep 27 08:17
schestowitztwitter: jobSep 27 08:17
schestowitzprogrammerSep 27 08:17
twitterinterestingSep 27 08:17
twitterthey will watch him like a hawk so that he does not tell you too muchSep 27 08:17
twitterhe might be lucky enough to work on Intel's free softwareSep 27 08:18
cubezzzwhat's wrong with intel?Sep 27 08:18
schestowitzHeheSep 27 08:18
schestowitzWhat's not?Sep 27 08:18
twittersee OLPC, recent convictions and fines by EU, use of Palestinian land, etc.Sep 27 08:19
twitterI have two siblings who work in the "gaming" industry.Sep 27 08:19
schestowitzIntel is busy doing good.......... moneySep 27 08:20
schestowitzAll else -- to hell with itSep 27 08:20
schestowitzBribery is OK if it pays off for shareholdersSep 27 08:20
twitterGolden skeletons in the closet?Sep 27 08:20
twitterYesmen referenceSep 27 08:21
cubezzzinvented the cpu :)Sep 27 08:21
cubezzzsorry, microprocessorSep 27 08:21
twitterthey made one, I'm not sure you can attribute inventionSep 27 08:21
cubezzzok, so which manufacturer of cpus should we be supporting?Sep 27 08:22
schestowitztwitter: I'm not in a position to tell siblings what to do, sadlySep 27 08:23
schestowitzI don't try, eitherSep 27 08:23
twitterNeither am I, lolSep 27 08:23
schestowitzMy sister went to some interview at MSFT, but she works for GE, which isn't a lot more ethical, eitherSep 27 08:24
twitterThe question is what use you can make of it.Sep 27 08:24
cubezzzwhat's your alternative to intel?Sep 27 08:24
twitterI was trying to answer that ...Sep 27 08:24
schestowitzChina has some ghood chips j/kSep 27 08:24
twitterbut I don't have a good answerSep 27 08:24
schestowitzSeriously though, the Chinese chips (not just manufacturing) are likely to take over like everything else, over the dcadesSep 27 08:25
twitterChinese companies are terrible to their employersSep 27 08:25
schestowitzThey already make decent $75 PCsSep 27 08:25
schestowitzMaybe a CHinese company will buy INTC some daySep 27 08:25
twitterThey will take over everything if we keep trading.  The situation will normalize when we are as poor and without rights as people in China are.Sep 27 08:26
schestowitzLike the Arabic nations bought big stakes in AMDSep 27 08:26
schestowitzThat's where the money is (the east)Sep 27 08:26
twitterAMD is a good companySep 27 08:26
schestowitzThe LOANED money is in the westSep 27 08:26
twitterfrom what I can see.Sep 27 08:26
schestowitzAMD do some bad things tooSep 27 08:26
twitterTheir chips always perform better than Intel.Sep 27 08:26
twitterRMS is now using a MIPS based laptop, from what I read on gnu configSep 27 08:27
schestowitzIn power cunsumption maybeSep 27 08:27
schestowitzIsn't he on a thinkpad?Sep 27 08:28
schestowitzHe tried OLPCSep 27 08:28
cubezzzI think panasonic has a cpu tooSep 27 08:28
schestowitzLenovo only do x86, afaikSep 27 08:28
schestowitzAnd wait....Sep 27 08:28
twitterno, the last I read he had mved to the "completely free" MIPS laptopSep 27 08:28
schestowitzLenovo IIRC were among those with Intel's kickbacksSep 27 08:28
cubezzzLemote?Sep 27 08:28
schestowitzI.e. accomplices in a crimeSep 27 08:28
twitterawww, can't find it.  I got the link from here.....Sep 27 08:29
cubezzzthere probably are a few other cpu manufacturers we aren't thinking aboutSep 27 08:31
cubezzzmatsushita, samsung...Sep 27 08:31
cubezzzhttp://www.happytrees.org/chips?page=manufacturer&manufacturer=MatsushitaSep 27 08:32
twitterTexas Instruments, Motorola, IBM,Sep 27 08:32
schestowitzAre chips still being manufactured in the US?Sep 27 08:33
twitterfor bombs, I'm sureSep 27 08:34
cubezzzlol, oh well everything's fine thenSep 27 08:34
cubezzzlooking...Sep 27 08:36
twitterThe US/China merger is not so complete that the US would turn over weapons production to China.Sep 27 08:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell Customers Complain About New Charges http://bit.ly/14USI4Sep 27 08:37
twitterthe US still does a better job of that.Sep 27 08:37
schestowitzChips for bombs?Sep 27 08:37
schestowitzDon't they use generic chips?Sep 27 08:37
twitterI'm sure the Pentagon has made sure there are enough domestic fabs for their own needs.Sep 27 08:38
cubezzzIntel has manufacturing bases in many countries such as Singapore, United States and Philippine. However, most laptop chips are made in USA. Therefore, the laptops assembled in China very likely have Intel CPUs made in USA.Sep 27 08:39
twitterIBM used to make things here too....Sep 27 08:42
twitterit's late here, gnSep 27 08:42
cubezzzFreescale CPU is a possibilitySep 27 08:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LiMo Phones to Avoid: #Vodafone 360 H1 (Samsung) http://bit.ly/3EdjLvSep 27 09:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] http://pic.gd/6b5e49 #inpycon tshirt is reappy bad. See @playingwithsid's tshirt with @hfactors patches applied.Sep 27 09:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Lengthy Rebuttals to #ZDNet ’s Anti- #FreeSoftware Rhetorics http://bit.ly/sShMNSep 27 09:39
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post - “Trust Me, I’m A Politician” http://tinyurl.com/ydblo5lSep 27 09:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SCO, Stephen Norris, the Bush Family, and Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal Al Saud http://ping.fm/nKYH4Sep 27 10:40
oiaohmHmm KDE did well this summer of code.Sep 27 10:47
oiaohmOnly 1 project did not get completed in the time frame.Sep 27 10:47
oiaohmKDE 4.4 is kinda going to have lots of new features.Sep 27 10:48
schestowitzWhat for example?Sep 27 10:55
schestowitzBTW, they fix bugs as we go along.Konversation has new features in this betaSep 27 10:55
oiaohmOk for warped 3d maps in kolf to pay on schestowitzSep 27 10:56
oiaohmhttp://dot.kde.org/2009/09/26/what-i-did-my-summer-holiday  Lot of old things.Sep 27 10:57
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_Hicham_hi all!Sep 27 11:05
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oiaohm_Hicham_: there is a scary bench mark out there.  Ubuntu 9.10 on solid state drive with a 2 ghz duel core.  Booted in 5 seconds.Sep 27 11:24
oiaohm_Hicham_: no tweaking.Sep 27 11:25
_Hicham_oiaohm : where ?Sep 27 11:25
_Hicham_oiaohm : I mean the url ?Sep 27 11:25
oiaohmI have to find it again.Sep 27 11:26
oiaohmI saw it today somewhere _Hicham_Sep 27 11:26
_Hicham_then they must have grabbed the patches from intelSep 27 11:27
oiaohmNoSep 27 11:27
trmancoit was on phoronixSep 27 11:28
oiaohmNote that is not even 100 percent usage of ram and diskreads.Sep 27 11:28
trmanconoSep 27 11:28
trmancoARS TecnicaSep 27 11:28
oiaohmhttp://static.arstechnica.com/watson-karmic-20090909-3.png  Yep there it is.Sep 27 11:29
phIRCeTitle: Not a web page! Aborting... .::. Size~: Too big!Sep 27 11:29
oiaohmLOLSep 27 11:29
oiaohmThe bootchart still shows tones of room for improvementSep 27 11:30
oiaohm2 to 3 seconds should be possiable in time.Sep 27 11:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If Microsoft is Right About Vista 7 Being So Great, Then Why Are the ‘Yes Men’ Usually Paid? http://ping.fm/4a5OQSep 27 11:31
phIRCeTitle: If Microsoft is Right About Vista 7 Being So Great, Then Why Are the Yes Men Usually Paid? | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 108.19 KBSep 27 11:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] The Importance Of Being Nice | The Digital Prism http://tinyurl.com/ya24ewySep 27 11:32
schestowitzoiaohm: just bootinhSep 27 11:32
schestowitzHow long does it take to start an x session with somehting useful?Sep 27 11:32
schestowitzHow about daemons?Sep 27 11:32
schestowitzIt's all very symbolicSep 27 11:33
schestowitzHeck, BIOS takes longer than thisSep 27 11:33
oiaohmschestowitz: that is X11 server up.Sep 27 11:33
oiaohmAnd background deamons.Sep 27 11:33
_Hicham_oiaohm : there is also xulrunner loaded in bootchartSep 27 11:33
oiaohmSo how long gnome or kde screws around on top of that.Sep 27 11:33
oiaohmThe bootchart has not been cleaned for speed.Sep 27 11:34
ThistleWebschestowitz: I've sorted out the rss feeds on my blog btw so feel free to add the tech feed if you likeSep 27 11:34
schestowitzoiaohm: not to do much with LinuxSep 27 11:34
schestowitzKDE is not LinuxSep 27 11:34
schestowitzit also does BSDSep 27 11:34
schestowitzBut I try to put in proportion this whole thingSep 27 11:34
oiaohmBasically that boot chart is to login screen.Sep 27 11:34
schestowitzIt's like saying, I'm flying to Washingon for a 4-hour interviewSep 27 11:35
schestowitzHow long is the flight?Sep 27 11:35
schestowitzOvernight stay, etc.Sep 27 11:35
oiaohmLight wm under 1 second.Sep 27 11:35
_Hicham_oiaohm : firefox should start instantly on ubuntu since xulrunner is loaded earlySep 27 11:35
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, it doesSep 27 11:36
schestowitzFirefox starts fast hereSep 27 11:36
schestowitz9.10Sep 27 11:36
oiaohmIts preloadedSep 27 11:36
oiaohmIf you were cutting for speed you would remove preloading firefox.Sep 27 11:36
_Hicham_nice trick from ubuntu karmicSep 27 11:36
_Hicham_oiaohm : I wouldn't recommend that for a firefox userSep 27 11:36
schestowitzKarmic sounds like a KDE releaseSep 27 11:37
oiaohm22 seconds on a normal harddrive.Sep 27 11:37
_Hicham_schestowitz : why?Sep 27 11:37
oiaohmNot bad.Sep 27 11:37
schestowitzUbuntu 9.10 should be GarmicSep 27 11:37
oiaohmIt starts with K of course _Hicham_Sep 27 11:37
schestowitzUbuntu 9.10 codename Garmic OnionSep 27 11:37
oiaohmNow if next ubuntu could get down to 10 seconds on a normal harddrive.Sep 27 11:38
oiaohmI really don't want to see where the solid state will be.Sep 27 11:38
_Hicham_schestowitz : codename is made of two names starting with the same letterSep 27 11:38
schestowitzI knowSep 27 11:38
oiaohmOk most likely on solid state what boot.Sep 27 11:38
oiaohmI saw no boot.Sep 27 11:38
schestowitz10.10 Mighty Mouse will be a perfect 10Sep 27 11:38
_Hicham_oiaohm : with plymouth and KMS things will be even fasterSep 27 11:38
oiaohmBetween now and Mighty Mouse Linux kernel will have great lag locating featurs.Sep 27 11:39
oiaohmLinux debuging will have at last almost caught up to solarias.Sep 27 11:40
oiaohmYes Solarias has been the bench in OS core debuging with there all powerful dtraceSep 27 11:40
oiaohmThese coming changes explain lInus call to arms over bloat.Sep 27 11:41
schestowitzFool: http://www.secuobs.com/revue/news/144756.shtmlSep 27 11:41
oiaohmRMS is both good and bad.Sep 27 11:44
oiaohmMore often good.Sep 27 11:44
schestowitzWhy is a promotional VIsta7 blog being added to Google 'News' aggregator? http://windows7news.com/2009/09/26/windows-and-mac-held-back-by-marketshare/Sep 27 11:44
oiaohmBut the open source world would be boring without RMS causing trouble.Sep 27 11:44
phIRCeTitle: Windows and Mac - Held Back By Marketshare? | Windows 7 News .::. Size~: 172.66 KBSep 27 11:44
schestowitz"This is why Windows and the Mac OS will always obtain new features after GNU/Linux."Sep 27 11:44
oiaohmIts why when Linux catchs up in particular weak areas it will just walk over Windows and Mac OS.Sep 27 11:46
oiaohmFaster turn arounds.Sep 27 11:47
_Hicham_5 seconds to boot is really scarySep 27 11:47
oiaohmParticularly when its a no optimsied 5 second boot.Sep 27 11:48
_Hicham_oiaohm : and loading xulrunner also !Sep 27 11:48
trmancoa 1 second boot would be scarySep 27 11:48
oiaohmThere are optimised Linuxs that can do a 0.5 second trmancoSep 27 11:49
_Hicham_what shocked me is the xulrunner thingSep 27 11:49
_Hicham_wowSep 27 11:49
trmancobut that is without any form of a guiSep 27 11:49
oiaohmThat is with GUI trmancoSep 27 11:49
oiaohmIts a cheat.Sep 27 11:49
trmancono bios?Sep 27 11:49
oiaohmOne mother of a flash block.Sep 27 11:49
oiaohmWith OS in it saved stated.Sep 27 11:49
oiaohmAnd basically no bios.Sep 27 11:50
oiaohmUsed in aircraft controls trmancoSep 27 11:50
oiaohmYou don't want them taking long to reboot.Sep 27 11:50
trmancoaren't aircrafts java?Sep 27 11:50
oiaohmNot for nav controls trmancoSep 27 11:51
_Hicham_aircrafts can't use javaSep 27 11:51
oiaohmJava is too slow to fire up compared to prebuilt binaries.Sep 27 11:51
_Hicham_java isn't used in mission critical stuffSep 27 11:51
oiaohmYou do find some aircrafts with java for in aircraft entertainment systems.Sep 27 11:51
oiaohmIe not important parts.Sep 27 11:51
vcentThey use Ada mostly in aircraft.Sep 27 11:52
oiaohm0.5 is about the max you can do.Sep 27 11:52
oiaohmvcent: its mixed.Sep 27 11:52
oiaohmAda C C++Sep 27 11:53
oiaohmAre the most common 3.Sep 27 11:53
oiaohm0.5 most of that time is syncing with hardware.Sep 27 11:53
oiaohmSo to go any faster would require some design of hardware we don't have yet.Sep 27 11:54
oiaohm5 seconds is 4.5 seconds above hard limit.Sep 27 11:54
oiaohmSaid part is 14 seconds out of the adverage 22 second start up of ubuntu 9.10 on a harddrive is the X11 server.Sep 27 11:56
oiaohmhttp://static.arstechnica.com/rukia-karmic-20090917-2.png  Lot of room for impovement here.Sep 27 11:58
phIRCeTitle: Not a web page! Aborting... .::. Size~: Too big!Sep 27 11:58
oiaohmFar too much time spent in io waitSep 27 11:59
schestowitzSad shills: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2009/09/prweb2915664.htmSep 27 12:06
schestowitztrmanco: Linux already boots in 1 secondSep 27 12:07
schestowitzOr lessSep 27 12:07
schestowitzSince a long time agoSep 27 12:07
schestowitzThere's also MontaVista's recent demo of itSep 27 12:07
schestowitzIf you google it, you'll seeSep 27 12:07
schestowitzOh, I see oiaohm beat me to itSep 27 12:07
schestowitz[11:49] <oiaohm> There are optimised Linuxs that can do a 0.5 second trmancoSep 27 12:07
schestowitzXbox has been getting HEAPS of bad news this wekSep 27 12:08
trmancomy router is monta istaSep 27 12:09
trmancomontavista*Sep 27 12:09
trmancoit's a mips at 300 mhzSep 27 12:10
trmancoit takes about 3 seconds to bootSep 27 12:10
oiaohmPut that on a 8 core 2 ghz arm trmanco you will be under 1 .Sep 27 12:10
trmancoI'm sure it willSep 27 12:11
trmancoit has 16 mb of ramSep 27 12:11
oiaohmThe insanity that is coming.Sep 27 12:11
trmancoand 2 mb of archiveSep 27 12:11
oiaohmDevices starting in 1.Sep 27 12:11
oiaohmOS's starting in 5.Sep 27 12:11
trmancowhere the kernel and the utils sitSep 27 12:11
oiaohmand 10 if you have to use harddisk.Sep 27 12:12
schestowitzhttp://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=220200062Sep 27 12:12
phIRCeTitle: Windows 7 Freebies For Twitter Fans -- InformationWeek .::. Size~: 91.75 KBSep 27 12:12
oiaohmFast boot patches most likely would have got 9.10 under 10Sep 27 12:12
oiaohmProblem is they also causes crashes.Sep 27 12:12
oiaohmIe lets forget about these locks.Sep 27 12:12
oiaohmAnd pray.Sep 27 12:13
oiaohmThat is what is going to be funny.  MS spent a lot of money speeding windows 7 up.   They are still behind.Sep 27 12:13
oiaohmand by the time people are going to be changing over they are going to be light years behind.Sep 27 12:13
oiaohmLOL schestowitz MS must be getting critical to get sales.Sep 27 12:14
oiaohmSad part is MS might give away more money than they make in sales.Sep 27 12:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Ainda estou a pensar em quem devo votar... Qual é o partido mais amigo do SL?Sep 27 12:15
trmancowtf are sieve scriptsSep 27 12:18
trmancoSieve (mail filtering language)Sep 27 12:18
trmanco:OSep 27 12:19
trmancohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_%28mail_filtering_language%29Sep 27 12:19
phIRCeTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden .::. Size~: 0 KBSep 27 12:19
trmancothis might be usefullSep 27 12:19
trmancouseful*Sep 27 12:19
trmancohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_mail_filtering_languageSep 27 12:19
phIRCeTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden .::. Size~: 0 KBSep 27 12:19
trmancohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieve_(mail_filtering_language)Sep 27 12:19
phIRCeTitle: Sieve (mail filtering language) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 24.5 KBSep 27 12:19
trmanco:)Sep 27 12:19
trmancoit looks like pseudo codeSep 27 12:20
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, a lot is spent on promotionSep 27 12:22
schestowitzI wish I knew what the marketing budget for Vista 7 wasSep 27 12:22
schestowitzThey sure pay a lot of people (contracts, freebies, parties, ads, placemements, ads)Sep 27 12:23
schestowitzoiaohm: monbility is the future.... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/microsoftpri0/2009944655_steveballmersays.htmlSep 27 12:24
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Pri0 | Steve Ballmer: Mistakes were made on Windows Mobile at Microsoft | Seattle Times Newspaper .::. Size~: 56.75 KBSep 27 12:24
schestowitzhttp://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/09/razorfish-windows-live-and-mobile-unprofitable-in-fy09.arsSep 27 12:25
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft: Windows Live and Mobile Services unprofitable - Ars Technica .::. Size~: 42.63 KBSep 27 12:25
schestowitzhttp://www.pcworld.com/article/172464/activision_yanks_german_wolfenstein_game_over_swastika.htmlSep 27 12:29
phIRCeTitle: Activision Yanks German Wolfenstein Game Over Swastika - PC World .::. Size~: 73.02 KBSep 27 12:29
oiaohmThere is spending money on promotion and there is stupidly wasting it.Sep 27 12:31
oiaohmGiving away free copies to selected people can be effective.Sep 27 12:31
oiaohmGiving away other free items thinking people will buy your products normally does not work.Sep 27 12:31
schestowitzhttp://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0925/1224255210787.htmlSep 27 12:32
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft opens ¬341m data centre in Dublin - The Irish Times - Fri, Sep 25, 2009 .::. Size~: 40.7 KBSep 27 12:32
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, it devalues the productSep 27 12:32
schestowitzMaking Vista 7 a free upgrade for Vista users is why MS won't do itSep 27 12:32
schestowitzPeople would say, why do those Vista users get it for free and I don't?Sep 27 12:33
schestowitzIt would also dilite earnings and reduce prceived value, leading people to thinking it's just SP3 for VIstaSep 27 12:33
schestowitzWHich is ISSep 27 12:33
schestowitz*it ISSep 27 12:33
schestowitzMicrosoft chose Dublin for tax breaks probablySep 27 12:34
oiaohmIn one way giving vista users free versions could be used as a PR spin.Sep 27 12:35
_Hicham_they did it with the RCSep 27 12:36
schestowitzoiaohm: did you listen to the linus interview?Sep 27 12:36
schestowitzHe spoke correctly about how everything people will remember from linuxcon is the 'bloated' remarkSep 27 12:36
schestowitzThat's the nature of newsSep 27 12:37
_Hicham_schestowitz : which interview ?Sep 27 12:37
schestowitzDarmatising thingsSep 27 12:37
_Hicham_of courseSep 27 12:37
schestowitzALso, just cause he attended it this may have caused issues to reputationSep 27 12:37
_Hicham_they listen to what they likeSep 27 12:37
schestowitzCan you find his keynote?Sep 27 12:37
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=linus+linuxcon&search_type=&aq=fSep 27 12:38
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - linus linuxcon .::. Size~: 120.3 KBSep 27 12:38
schestowitzStill nothingSep 27 12:38
schestowitzDid they make no footage of it?Sep 27 12:38
schestowitzOldie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTWCPoUt8wSep 27 12:39
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - The Origins of Linux - Linus Torvalds .::. Size~: 154.06 KBSep 27 12:39
schestowitzoiaohm: Microsoft is trying to cannibalise partners for profit: http://www.crn.com/software/220100996;jsessionid=GH4XNCACSMRYHQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVNSep 27 12:39
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Partners Hope Courier Isn't Another Tablet - Software - IT Channel News by CRN .::. Size~: 74.56 KBSep 27 12:40
schestowitzThere's also some talk about ebooks with Windows, but Linux rules this areas easilySep 27 12:40
schestowitzhttp://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2542146/Sep 27 12:41
trmanco%20Sep 27 12:42
trmancohmmmSep 27 12:42
trmancothat might not matchSep 27 12:42
trmancoit doesSep 27 12:43
trmancohttp://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock News/2542146/Sep 27 12:43
trmancomehSep 27 12:43
trmancothat does not work :|Sep 27 12:44
schestowitzSep 27 12:44
schestowitzAfDBSep 27 12:44
schestowitzSold out to the VoleSep 27 12:44
schestowitztrmanco: just escape char for spaces. Bad URL conventionsSep 27 12:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] AlmoçoSep 27 12:45
schestowitzhttp://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=937Sep 27 12:45
phIRCeTitle: TechRepublic Blogs: For IT professionals, by IT professionals .::. Size~: 80.7 KBSep 27 12:45
schestowitzTrolling LinuxSep 27 12:45
schestowitzhttp://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-and-Notebooks/Microsoft-Joins-Apple-in-Rumors-about-New-Tablet-PCs-735108/Sep 27 12:46
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Joins Apple in Rumors About New Tablet PCs .::. Size~: 106.17 KBSep 27 12:46
schestowitzLinux tablets are comingSep 27 12:46
schestowitzApple and Microsoft realise it's a commoditySep 27 12:46
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schestowitzWhen does the CrunchPad come?Sep 27 12:46
schestowitzwb, magentarSep 27 12:46
schestowitzhttp://www.bbspot.com/News/2009/09/steve-jobs-leaves-apple.htmlSep 27 12:47
phIRCeTitle: BBspot - Microsoft Lures Jobs Away from Apple, Steve Jobs .::. Size~: 25.04 KBSep 27 12:47
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jBOZEJHEHlFYyo5AsDwqsOMRFm8QD9AUK6FO0Sep 27 12:51
phIRCeTitle: The Associated Press: Yahoo director to step down at end of year .::. Size~: 7.47 KBSep 27 12:51
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satiperahttp://business.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/22/tech-open-source-can-help-india-save-rs-10000-crore.htmSep 27 12:58
phIRCeTitle: Open Source can help India save Rs 10,000 crore: Rediff Business News, Latest India business news, India Economy news, World Business, Finance news, Latest business headlines, business videos and business articles. .::. Size~: 23.37 KBSep 27 12:58
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trmancothe spaces workSep 27 12:58
trmanco%20 is a 100% matchSep 27 12:58
satiperasnapSep 27 12:58
trmancothe url is just crazySep 27 12:58
trmancoit loads up an ad firstSep 27 12:58
schestowitzLies, man lies, and http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Search-Engines/HitWise-Microsoft-Bing-Soars-18-in-August-362465/Sep 27 13:03
phIRCeTitle: HitWise: Microsoft Bing Soars 18% in August .::. Size~: 110.22 KBSep 27 13:03
schestowitzThey not only ingore geography but also measure % relative to selfSep 27 13:03
schestowitzSo if you had 1% and snatched another 4% you could claim soaring by 400%Sep 27 13:03
schestowitzTypical Microsoft-fluffSep 27 13:04
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schestowitzCNN/Microsoft has another advert for vapoiurware that's not new. http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/09/25/total.recall.microsoft.bell/Sep 27 13:05
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft researcher converts his brain into 'e-memory' - CNN.com .::. Size~: 73.89 KBSep 27 13:05
schestowitzThis has gone on for yearsSep 27 13:05
schestowitzIt's just PR/advertSep 27 13:05
schestowitzStupid stuff like SurfaceSep 27 13:05
schestowitzIs Surface dead yet?Sep 27 13:05
schestowitzhttp://www.cnet.com/8301-19709_1-10360045-10.html "We're not real sure about the iRex reader, Microsoft's Courier is a lot of smoke.."Sep 27 13:08
schestowitzSmoke?Sep 27 13:08
phIRCeTitle: BOL 1069: 80 percent of life is exhaust | Buzz Out Loud Blog - CNET Blogs .::. Size~: 84.94 KBSep 27 13:08
schestowitzXbox?Sep 27 13:08
schestowitzWill there be exploding ebooks like there are portable media players (ipods) and phones (iphones), even WIndows laptops...Sep 27 13:09
schestowitzExploding ebook would be worse than remote deletion that makes them go *poof*Sep 27 13:10
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schestowitzhttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/09/comedy-sites-are-the-big-gainers-on-the-web.htmlSep 27 13:15
phIRCeTitle: Comedy sites are the big gainers on the Web | Technology | Los Angeles Times .::. Size~: 82.59 KBSep 27 13:15
schestowitz"Sep 27 13:24
schestowitzBy two minutes into the video, I could only hold my head in my hands, cringing and saying, "No, no, no, this can't possibly be real!" before giggling helplessly at how high these six minutes and 14 seconds of video ranked on the Unintentional Comedy Scale.Sep 27 13:24
schestowitzhttp://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward/2009/09/microsofts_house_party_an_invi.htmlSep 27 13:24
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oiaohmschestowitz: MS attacking partners started with MS entering the anti-virus game.Sep 27 13:33
oiaohmAs MS gets more critical it will get worse.Sep 27 13:33
oiaohmTwo of the lead developers of Linux have done call to arms.Sep 27 13:33
oiaohmLinus over bloat.Sep 27 13:33
oiaohmAnd the other insulting the desktop.Sep 27 13:33
oiaohmBasically the prove me wrong motivation method.Sep 27 13:34
oiaohmHistory of Linux it has worked great.Sep 27 13:34
schestowitzclassic example of a sensationalist headline trying to seem negative and then praising Microsoft. So typical for CNN 'news': http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/09/23/is-microsoft-relevant/?section=magazines_fortuneSep 27 13:34
phIRCeTitle: OpenDNS .::. Size~: 2.07 KBSep 27 13:34
oiaohmBasically we are starting to see the signs of Linux moving to a war footing.Sep 27 13:34
schestowitzIt's always amusing when 'CNN' says the monopolies are "under attack"Sep 27 13:35
schestowitzPoor monopoliesSep 27 13:35
schestowitzPeople 'attack' themSep 27 13:35
schestowitzBad, bad regulatorsSep 27 13:35
schestowitzBad rules and lawsSep 27 13:35
oiaohmLinux war footing is different.Sep 27 13:35
oiaohmFocusSep 27 13:35
oiaohmWhen linux took super market there were equal call to arms over linux lack of means to scale.Sep 27 13:36
oiaohmSo leading to Linux being able to scale like no other OS.Sep 27 13:36
trmancoLOLSep 27 13:36
schestowitzoiaohm: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/180159.asp?from=blog_last3Sep 27 13:36
trmancoOpenDNSSep 27 13:36
phIRCeTitle: Leaked: Photos of Microsoft's Pink phones .::. Size~: 62.54 KBSep 27 13:36
trmancohahaSep 27 13:37
schestowitzMicrosoft vs partners again?Sep 27 13:37
trmancohttp://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/09/23/is-microsoft-relevant/?section=magazines_fortuneSep 27 13:37
phIRCeTitle: OpenDNS .::. Size~: 2.07 KBSep 27 13:37
schestowitztrmanco: you use opendnsSep 27 13:37
trmancowtfSep 27 13:37
oiaohmBasically media is miss reading Linux.Sep 27 13:37
trmancothe page loads hereSep 27 13:37
schestowitzOr your script doesSep 27 13:37
oiaohmNice bit is in 12 months time they will wake up how bad.Sep 27 13:37
schestowitzWell......Sep 27 13:38
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schestowitzoiaohm: they can't sell Windows Mobile anywaySep 27 13:38
schestowitzSo they might as well try to sell phone h/w :-)Sep 27 13:38
schestowitzLike Zune!Sep 27 13:38
oiaohmHardware production is the only safe market from Open Source.Sep 27 13:39
oiaohmOrcale is more than aware of this.Sep 27 13:39
oiaohmThey did not aquire SUN without thinking about long term.Sep 27 13:39
oiaohmPhones is a stupid thing for MS to try to go head to head on.Sep 27 13:40
oiaohmNokia and other phone makers are not going to be happy.Sep 27 13:41
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oiaohmThrough out the history of phones makes have not used OS's that own purely to a rival.Sep 27 13:41
oiaohmDue to the reason of the risk of the double cross.Sep 27 13:41
oiaohmIf MS releases a phone they have doomed there phone market.Sep 27 13:42
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trmancoUptime: 2 days, 2 hours and 24 minutesSep 27 13:43
trmancoplasma leaks a littleSep 27 13:43
oiaohmschestowitz: think music players.   MS released Zune everyone stoped making CE based media players other than MS.Sep 27 13:43
oiaohmMS is imploding.Sep 27 13:44
trmancobut nothing a $kquitapp plasma-desktop then plasma-desktop wouldn't doSep 27 13:44
oiaohmIn one way I feel sorry for reactos developers.   MS could implode before they have a production ready version.Sep 27 13:45
schestowitzMicrosoft enters deeper into AstroTurf Biz: http://www.clickz.com/3635086Sep 27 13:50
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Tests Social Media Monitoring Product - ClickZ .::. Size~: 32.1 KBSep 27 13:50
oiaohmHmmSep 27 13:51
oiaohmStrange MS did not hide that in a sub company.Sep 27 13:51
hicham_oiaohm : do u think that MS can attack reactos ?Sep 27 13:51
oiaohmReactos is server based from russiaSep 27 13:51
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oiaohmLittle bit outside MS means to attack.Sep 27 13:52
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oiaohmEven Reactos project lead is russian.Sep 27 13:52
_Hicham_what if he is russian ?Sep 27 13:52
oiaohmThe cases have to be held in a russian court.Sep 27 13:52
oiaohmNo friend to a USA based multi national.Sep 27 13:52
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oiaohmYes the power of open source.  Open source can choose where it legally based to its advantage.Sep 27 13:53
oiaohmYes the Reactos Fountation is also Russian.Sep 27 13:54
oiaohmIt started off as a USA foundation and was moved.Sep 27 13:54
_Hicham_international courts cannot hold those kind of cases ?Sep 27 13:55
oiaohmNot copyright.Sep 27 13:55
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oiaohmCopyright and infringement cases must be held in the home country.Sep 27 13:55
_Hicham_and Russia do not have copyright laws ?Sep 27 13:57
oiaohmVery lax copyright laws _Hicham_Sep 27 13:57
oiaohmMostly finds in Russian person favour even if they are in the wrong.Sep 27 13:57
oiaohmFair price is also part of the Russian system.Sep 27 13:57
schestowitzhttp://www.pcworld.com/article/172648/microsoft_kills_dynamics_mobile.htmlSep 27 13:58
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phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Kills Dynamics Mobile - PC World .::. Size~: 64.98 KBSep 27 13:58
oiaohmIe you cannot win a case over copyright in russian if you are charging a unfair ammount.  Kinda leaves MS in trouble off the start line.Sep 27 13:58
oiaohmGetting a in port block on open source is very hard in the USA as well.Sep 27 13:59
oiaohmMS is still cutting back not good sign for them.Sep 27 14:01
_Hicham_hopefully schestowitz will beat MicrosoftSep 27 14:02
_Hicham_so that we can enjoy all hardware on LinuxSep 27 14:02
oiaohmMicrosoft are killing themselvesSep 27 14:06
oiaohmI wish MS would speed up doing themselves in.Sep 27 14:06
oiaohmhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/sep/25/sonic-cannon-g20-pittsburgh  Hmm its getting harder to protest.Sep 27 14:11
MinceRyeah, the world is moving further towards fascism.Sep 27 14:15
_Hicham_MinceR should be happy if Steve Jobs leaves his jobSep 27 14:16
MinceRifSep 27 14:16
oiaohmIt would be worse if they start using metal stop area defence systems.Sep 27 14:17
oiaohmmetal stop/metal storm.Sep 27 14:17
oiaohmThat system can auto target on humans.Sep 27 14:17
schestowitzhttp://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/22737/Sep 27 14:17
oiaohmWith leathal or non leathal rounds.Sep 27 14:18
schestowitzoiaohm: to stop theives?Sep 27 14:18
MinceRnonlethal rounds?Sep 27 14:18
schestowitzThey are right out there in suitsSep 27 14:18
schestowitzMany lurking in Wall StreetSep 27 14:18
MinceRafaik there still are no nonlethal weaponsSep 27 14:19
schestowitz*/theives/thieves/Sep 27 14:19
oiaohmThere are metal storm has firefighting rounds.Sep 27 14:19
MinceRthere are multiple kinds of thievesSep 27 14:19
oiaohmAustralias replacement to mine fields MinceRSep 27 14:19
MinceRfight fire with fire? :>Sep 27 14:20
oiaohmAuto matic targeting weapon systems.Sep 27 14:20
oiaohmAlso can be used for puting out fire control foam and other matterials.Sep 27 14:20
oiaohmOn a solid surface like a road putting out something that breaks grip is nasty.Sep 27 14:21
oiaohmNon killing but nasty for a person trying to get somewhere.Sep 27 14:21
MinceRicSep 27 14:22
MinceRstill, if it reaches their breathing organs, it kills themSep 27 14:22
vcenthttp://www.metalstorm.com/ I think it's an australian invention, and is more to do with very high firing rates.Sep 27 14:22
oiaohmNo the liquid is the same stuff used for liquid breathing MinceRSep 27 14:22
oiaohmWill not kill you even if you get a lung full of it.Sep 27 14:23
MinceRinterestingSep 27 14:23
MinceRstill, nonlethal/less-lethal weapons tend to be able to cause serious harm in some circumstancesSep 27 14:23
MinceRthe circumstances vary with the weapon.Sep 27 14:23
oiaohmThis one is person falling over bady.Sep 27 14:23
oiaohmso yes can cause harm but mostly not lethal unless the person is really not lucky.Sep 27 14:24
oiaohmWebing stuff has to be carefully targeted.Sep 27 14:25
oiaohmThe major advantage of metal storm over a mine field since its controlled you can cross it but anyone following you can be doomed.Sep 27 14:27
oiaohmNow that is also good for protecting something that is moving.Sep 27 14:27
oiaohmReally high speed water bombs filled with the breathable liquid is a major headache for anyone trying to get somewhere.Sep 27 14:29
oiaohmSince breaking ground grip allows them to drive person trying to get somewhere backwards.Sep 27 14:30
MinceRit allows you to break every bone in their body. :>Sep 27 14:31
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sebsebsebhi schestowitzSep 27 14:48
schestowitzhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/24/teargas-protest-g20-summit-pittsburghSep 27 14:48
schestowitzHey, sebsebsebSep 27 14:48
sebsebsebschestowitz: What's Mandriva like, installing stuff, and the repos and that?Sep 27 14:48
schestowitzhttp://www.theyesmen.org/blog/yes-men-honcho-sprung-from-clinkSep 27 14:49
schestowitz"Sep 27 14:49
phIRCeTitle: YES MEN HONCHO SPRUNG FROM CLINK | The Yes Men .::. Size~: 22.99 KBSep 27 14:49
schestowitzYES MEN HONCHO SPRUNG FROM CLINKSep 27 14:49
schestowitz"Balls Across America" direct-action campaign launchedSep 27 14:49
schestowitzNYPD abuse of authority big factor in arrestSep 27 14:49
schestowitzSuppressive nationSep 27 14:49
schestowitzhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/24/nuclear-weapons-un-security-councilSep 27 14:50
MinceRmandriva's locale handling fails :/Sep 27 14:51
sebsebsebMinceR: meaning?Sep 27 14:52
schestowitzhttp://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/09/fbi-nsac/Sep 27 14:52
phIRCeTitle: Newly Declassified Files Detail Massive FBI Data-Mining Project | Threat Level | Wired.com .::. Size~: 84.09 KBSep 27 14:52
MinceRsebsebseb: http://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=111264Sep 27 14:52
MinceRthey call it "SOLVED" but it really isn'tSep 27 14:52
schestowitz"The FBI has brought back "total information awareness" datamining. True to form, they presented "terrorism" as an excuse, but use the system for investigating all sorts of people, including dissidents." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-jul-oct.html#26%20September%202009%20%28Declassified%20details%20of%20FBI%20datamining%29Sep 27 14:52
schestowitzhttp://rawstory.com/blog/2009/09/obama-will-bypass-congress-to-detain-suspects-indefinitely/Sep 27 14:53
phIRCeTitle: The Raw Story » Obama will bypass Congress to detain suspects indefinitely .::. Size~: 95.98 KBSep 27 14:53
MinceRi wonder if France was "big enough" to support properly :>Sep 27 14:53
schestowitzHeh.Sep 27 14:55
schestowitzMany there use UbuntuSep 27 14:55
schestowitzEven government deptsSep 27 14:55
schestowitzFrench police tooSep 27 14:55
schestowitzhttp://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/09/22/time-to-change-bernanke-s-medication-sec-20Sep 27 14:55
phIRCeTitle: TIME TO CHANGE BERNANKE'S MEDICATION? Secret White House letter to G-20 .::. Size~: 26.57 KBSep 27 14:55
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amarsh04schestowitz, I had a big look at who wrote the GPL code in my adsl2+ router... since I'm in Australia and so is the router vendor, finding some Australian authors should help thingsSep 27 14:59
amarsh04Glenn McGrath, who wrote the tar program for BusyBox;Sep 27 14:59
amarsh04Andrew Tridgell, who wrote the proxy arp netmasks in arp.c in net-tools' arp;Sep 27 14:59
amarsh04Richard Gooch, who wrote the devfs code in the Linux kernel;Sep 27 14:59
amarsh04Matthew Ramsay and Chris Trew, who wrote Moreton Bay DHCP Server udhcpd;Sep 27 14:59
amarsh04and Paul 'Rusty' Russell, who wrote much of iptables.Sep 27 14:59
oiaohmThere are a lot more than those amarsh04Sep 27 15:00
schestowitzThis dude seems like a bit of a troll.... http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/09/22/time-to-change-bernanke-s-medication-sec-20Sep 27 15:00
amarsh04Glenn McGrath was burned out by an earlier attempt at GPL compliance: http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/119355Sep 27 15:00
phIRCeTitle: TIME TO CHANGE BERNANKE'S MEDICATION? Secret White House letter to G-20 .::. Size~: 26.57 KBSep 27 15:00
phIRCeTitle: Linux.com :: SFLC files GPL lawsuit on behalf of Busybox developers .::. Size~: 41.61 KBSep 27 15:00
oiaohmIn the kernel it self there are at least 200 amarsh04Sep 27 15:00
schestowitzOops. This guy: http://identi.ca/supertunamanSep 27 15:00
phIRCeTitle: Tuna (supertunaman)  - Identi.ca .::. Size~: 47.1 KBSep 27 15:00
schestowitzhttp://www.busybox.net/shame.htmlSep 27 15:01
phIRCeTitle: BusyBox .::. Size~: 8.92 KBSep 27 15:01
amarsh04yes, schestowitz, and I've probably met less than 4 of themSep 27 15:01
schestowitzhttp://www.physorg.com/news173104436.htmlSep 27 15:04
phIRCeTitle: Computer scientists successfully boot one million Linux kernels as virtual machines .::. Size~: 83.36 KBSep 27 15:04
schestowitzI wonder why they are so much behind the newsSep 27 15:04
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amarsh043 SFLC email addresses were in the email I just spent several hours preparing about the GPL code in my adsl2+ routerSep 27 15:07
sebsebsebMinceR: Well Mandriva 2010 RC I hope the issue is fixed in that, but if the issue is only for those two counteries, doesn't effect meSep 27 15:09
schestowitzhttp://www.nuxified.org/blog/googles-reported-attack-site-nonsense-could-lead-firefox-boycottSep 27 15:12
phIRCeTitle: Google's "reported attack site" nonsense could lead to a Firefox boycott | Nuxified.org .::. Size~: 52.56 KBSep 27 15:12
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MinceRsebsebseb: which is the other one, besides Hungary?Sep 27 15:23
sebsebsebMinceR: I only know what your link saidSep 27 15:24
MinceRwell, then it isn't only twoSep 27 15:24
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sebsebsebMinceR: only read it quickly and thatSep 27 15:26
schestowitztrmanco: http://ostatic.com/blog/gmails-outage-illustrates-cloud-problems-and-open-source-opportunities time for own mail?Sep 27 15:26
phIRCeTitle:  Gmail's Outage Illustrates Cloud Problems, and Open Source Opportunities  .::. Size~: 38.17 KBSep 27 15:26
schestowitzIs this press so stupid that every time it hears of Kazakhstan it has to put a photo of this dick? http://www.cio-weblog.com/50226711/linux_learnings_of_ibm_for_make_benefit_glorious_nation_of_kazakhstan.phpSep 27 15:30
phIRCeTitle: The CIO Weblog: Linux learnings of IBM for make benefit glorious nation of Kazakhstan .::. Size~: 115.63 KBSep 27 15:31
schestowitzThis is the second time (2 out of 2) that I  see them doing itSep 27 15:31
schestowitzDIdn't Kazakhstan sue Sascha Baron for shaming the country?Sep 27 15:31
MinceRborat ftwSep 27 15:31
schestowitzIt's a developed country, he made it look like a farmer's landSep 27 15:31
MinceRalso, read the first paragraphSep 27 15:32
schestowitzI watched the filmSep 27 15:32
schestowitzIt stained the image of the population thereSep 27 15:32
schestowitzMinceR: we had one of them hereSep 27 15:33
schestowitzThey move to ODF, hopefullySep 27 15:33
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schestowitzhttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112926570Sep 27 15:38
phIRCeTitle: Social Media Crashes The Courtroom : NPR .::. Size~: 68.51 KBSep 27 15:39
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schestowitzhttp://www.macfound.org/site/c.lkLXJ8MQKrH/b.959463/k.9D7D/Fellows_Program.htmSep 27 15:42
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DaemonFCthe latest Opera 10.1 weekly build is faster than Firefox 3.5Sep 27 15:43
schestowitzGroklaw is the same wavelength as many like me... Oracle is trying to ruin mysqlSep 27 15:45
schestowitzELLISon keeps lyingSep 27 15:45
DaemonFCthey wouldn't have to try hardSep 27 15:45
DaemonFCOracle already has database software that massively outperforms MySQLSep 27 15:45
DaemonFCif Adobe really wants to hurt Microsoft, why can't they ever seem to make a fully functional Flash plugin on Linux?Sep 27 15:50
schestowitzTroll Tracker Defamation Trial Ends in TruceSep 27 15:50
DaemonFCit's obvious that Moonlight won't ever workSep 27 15:50
schestowitzhttp://www.thedailyjournal.com/article/20090901/OPINION02/909010328Sep 27 15:51
phIRCeTitle: When do words of a rapper or blogger become threats? | thedailyjournal.com | The Daily Journal .::. Size~: 66.01 KBSep 27 15:51
schestowitzDaemonFC: it would work for MicrSep 27 15:51
schestowitzsSep 27 15:51
schestowitzThe idea is to make it work poorlySep 27 15:51
MinceRadobe wants to hurt m$?Sep 27 15:51
DaemonFCMinceR, They shouldSep 27 15:51
MinceRwell, everybody shouldSep 27 15:51
DaemonFCSilverlight is aimed at killing off FlashSep 27 15:51
DaemonFCschestowitz, The reason Moonlight won't ever get any users is because they would actually have to make it work firstSep 27 15:54
DaemonFCI don't know why anyone is afraid of itSep 27 15:54
MinceRwell, that didn't keep flash from gaining users, did it?Sep 27 15:55
DaemonFCeven Silverlight 1.0 sites won't work in Moonlight 1.0Sep 27 15:55
DaemonFCMinceR, The biggest use of Flash is video playback. If you just get that working, 80% of users are happySep 27 15:55
schestowitzhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/09/24/hondas-u3-x-personal-mobility-device-is-the-segway-of-unicycles/Sep 27 15:56
phIRCeTitle: Honda's U3-X Personal Mobility Device is the Segway of unicycles .::. Size~: 135.24 KBSep 27 15:56
DaemonFCSilverlight has a few things that people are using it for like "Photo Synth", but there's not reason you couldn't do that with Flash, none at allSep 27 15:56
DaemonFC*not=noSep 27 15:56
DaemonFCthe entire point of Flash is that it's quick and easy to build with and that it's more or less cross platform and every browser supports itSep 27 15:58
DaemonFCyou might, in theory, make a site that's just as good using standard HTML and style sheets and browser support for <video> and such, but not every browser supports that yetSep 27 15:59
DaemonFCMSIE will be the last holdoutSep 27 15:59
DaemonFC(it always is)Sep 27 15:59
MinceR165715 < DaemonFC> MinceR, The biggest use of Flash is video playback. If you just get that working, 80% of users are happySep 27 16:01
MinceRif.Sep 27 16:01
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxworld.com/news/2009/092509-phoenix-doubling-staff-at-india.html?fsrc=rss-linux-newsSep 27 16:01
phIRCeTitle: Phoenix doubling staff at India development center - LinuxWorld .::. Size~: 34.65 KBSep 27 16:01
DaemonFCproprietary software works well for precisely that reason MinceRSep 27 16:02
MinceRas for msie being the last holdout, they just need to install another plugin: chrome frame. ;)Sep 27 16:02
schestowitzThe whole video part of Moonlie is just Microsoft proprietary codecs with a draconian licenceSep 27 16:02
MinceRDaemonFC: except for the whole not working part?Sep 27 16:02
DaemonFCmost people do simply have a "passive consumer" mindsetSep 27 16:02
DaemonFCand not all proprietary software is bad or evilSep 27 16:02
MinceRDaemonFC: it would be a nice explanation if, you know, proprietary software worked well.Sep 27 16:02
DaemonFCsome doesSep 27 16:02
MinceRsome, and not nearly allSep 27 16:03
MinceRmost doesn'tSep 27 16:03
schestowitzAnd you are left helpless of they don'tSep 27 16:03
schestowitzcase of point: FletchSep 27 16:03
DaemonFCwell, there are cases where the software is huge and complicated and no open source project even comes closeSep 27 16:03
DaemonFCPhotoshop v. GimpSep 27 16:03
_Hicham_ah, TrollTech is hereSep 27 16:03
schestowitzYour pointer is wrongSep 27 16:03
schestowitzPhotoshop >. GimpSep 27 16:04
schestowitzFOr bloatSep 27 16:04
schestowitzPhotoshop <. GimpSep 27 16:04
MinceR:DSep 27 16:04
schestowitzFor quick useSep 27 16:04
DaemonFCI really hate Gimp, I really doSep 27 16:04
DaemonFCmaybe 2.8 will be better, I hope soSep 27 16:04
schestowitzLearn itSep 27 16:04
_Hicham_u hate everythingSep 27 16:04
MinceRDaemonFC: we didn't expect anything else from you :>Sep 27 16:04
schestowitzI luuuurve GIMOSep 27 16:04
_Hicham_example of sthg u like ?Sep 27 16:04
schestowitzI'm good at it tooSep 27 16:04
MinceRsoon gimp will gain the option to use a photoshop-like retarded guiSep 27 16:04
DaemonFCwell, it's not like people go out and spend $1200 just because they don't want to have that $1200Sep 27 16:05
MinceRso the whiners can get what they wantedSep 27 16:05
*schestowitz shuddersSep 27 16:05
schestowitzg2g bblSep 27 16:05
MinceRwell, people like to think that more expensive must be betterSep 27 16:05
DaemonFCschestowitz, acts like people go to the store and shout "I hate money, get it away from me!!! It burns the flesh!!!!"Sep 27 16:05
MinceRespecially if they've already wasted all that moneySep 27 16:05
schestowitzMinceR: Iraq war better than Vietnam then?Sep 27 16:05
MinceRcognitive dissonance and everythingSep 27 16:05
MinceRschestowitz: dunno. is the iraq war considered a success?Sep 27 16:05
schestowitzWas Photoshop?Sep 27 16:06
MinceRit is by its fanboysSep 27 16:06
DaemonFCI don't use Photoshop either mind youSep 27 16:06
_Hicham_there is a gimp fork, called gimpshop, which looks like PhotoshopSep 27 16:06
schestowitzI'm sure some photoshopped photos from Iraq can show American flags and happy Iraqi peopleSep 27 16:06
DaemonFCCorel Graphics Suite X4 is pretty goodSep 27 16:07
DaemonFCcompatible with photoshop pluginsSep 27 16:07
schestowitzbblSep 27 16:07
MinceRcorel isn't dead yet?Sep 27 16:07
ThistleWebI never got gimpshop to workSep 27 16:07
DaemonFCMinceR, far from itSep 27 16:07
DaemonFChttp://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/us/en/Product/1191272117978#tabview=tab0Sep 27 16:07
phIRCeTitle: CorelDRAW Graphics Suite X4 - Graphics .::. Size~: 136.01 KBSep 27 16:07
DaemonFCwhat I useSep 27 16:07
MinceRhttp://gimp.org/  http://inkscape.org/Sep 27 16:08
MinceRwhat i use :>Sep 27 16:08
phIRCeTitle: GIMP - The GNU Image Manipulation Program .::. Size~: 8.77 KBSep 27 16:08
phIRCeTitle: Inkscape. Draw Freely. .::. Size~: 12.69 KBSep 27 16:08
DaemonFCMinceR, They do have a Win64 versionSep 27 16:08
DaemonFCGimp kinda sorta doesSep 27 16:08
ThistleWebI am curious why the Gimp having a single window interface as an option is a bad thing?Sep 27 16:08
DaemonFCThistleWeb, Gimp 2.8 willSep 27 16:09
_Hicham_but it is not freeSep 27 16:09
ThistleWebI knowSep 27 16:09
MinceRThistleWeb: the option isn't a bad thing (other than wasting developer time)Sep 27 16:09
ThistleWebI dont get why it's a bad thingSep 27 16:09
MinceRmaking it the default is worseSep 27 16:09
DaemonFC_Hicham_, I have a few Corel productsSep 27 16:09
ThistleWeban option you can switch on or offSep 27 16:09
MinceRbut as long as the old-style interface remains, i'll keep using itSep 27 16:09
ThistleWebdeveloped by volunteers who wanted to do itSep 27 16:09
DaemonFCthey had a product they were distributing for a while called Multimedia FusionSep 27 16:10
ThistleWebthat's what foss is all about, scratching your own itchSep 27 16:10
DaemonFCit was massive, you could do all kinds of stuffSep 27 16:10
ThistleWebif you're paying the devs, then you can insist they work on something you consider usefulSep 27 16:10
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber has wandered away")Sep 27 16:10
DaemonFCWordperfect Office X4 sucks thoughSep 27 16:11
DaemonFCit's gotten so bad that OpenOffice beats itSep 27 16:11
ThistleWebwhether we like it or not, the multi-window interface in gimp has put a lot of potential converts offSep 27 16:11
DaemonFChttp://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/2009/09/gimp-single-mode.htmlSep 27 16:13
phIRCeTitle: m+mi works : blog : on interaction architecture: GIMP redux, singlewindow mode .::. Size~: 96.42 KBSep 27 16:13
ThistleWebsome apps have defined the general UI for that type of app, photoshop is one of themSep 27 16:13
ThistleWebnotice inkscape is a single windowSep 27 16:13
ThistleWebso is scribusSep 27 16:13
ThistleWeball the image apps I can think of in windows are tooSep 27 16:14
ThistleWebopen and closed sourceSep 27 16:14
ThistleWebgimp is only fitting inSep 27 16:14
_Hicham_DaemonFC can't write a single line of code, and is whining about applicationsSep 27 16:14
ThistleWebbut leaving an option for those who prefer multi windows to use thatSep 27 16:14
DaemonFC_Hicham_, When something is missing features that I use or the interface sucks, I won't use itSep 27 16:15
DaemonFCand I don't care who made itSep 27 16:15
MinceRnotice that sodipodi doesn't have a single windowSep 27 16:15
MinceR(and neither should inkscape)Sep 27 16:16
amarsh04http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/09/27/0252235Sep 27 16:16
phIRCeTitle: Slashdot | AU Government To Build "Unhackable" Netbooks .::. Size~: 134 KBSep 27 16:16
MinceRnot even dia does, though it doesn't really take advantage of itSep 27 16:16
ThistleWeblike it or not, when you design an app which already has competition, with a totally different UI, it will struggle to gain a footholdSep 27 16:17
DaemonFCthis is just weirdSep 27 16:17
DaemonFCSocial Security website validates as HTML 4.01 TransitionalSep 27 16:17
DaemonFCOpera can't render it properlySep 27 16:17
MinceRor that totally different UI will be its selling pointSep 27 16:18
ThistleWebthe UI for a word processor is pretty much set in stone, the only new UI in many years has been the ribbonSep 27 16:18
ThistleWeband a lot of peeps hate the ribbonSep 27 16:18
MinceRword processors are overratedSep 27 16:18
MinceRbtw, WYSIWYG is a new UI, and yet here you are arguing for it. :>Sep 27 16:18
ThistleWebpeople get used to one UI for that type of app. They can work with varations on that UI and get used to it but a new UI will be alienSep 27 16:19
DaemonFCwell, the theory of software, like anything else, is that vicious competition will keep prices down and quality up. The basic assumption holds true when there's a small to medium size company with lots of competition.Sep 27 16:19
ThistleWebnew? since when?Sep 27 16:19
DaemonFCit falls apart when you talk about Microsoft because even though they still have to listen to customers for some things, there's a lot of self serving crap and high prices because they don't have any viable competitionSep 27 16:20
ThistleWebsome web apps dont have a wisiwig, but most apps doSep 27 16:20
DaemonFCFOSS is out of that system entirely, and even though proponents like to say it's user driven, it isn'tSep 27 16:20
DaemonFCit's largely developer driven and has lots of gaps in many cases cause the maintainers don't careSep 27 16:20
MinceRm$ keeps competition from entering the dealSep 27 16:20
ThistleWebwell, not built in anyway, though plugins often sufficeSep 27 16:20
MinceRs/deal/market/Sep 27 16:20
DaemonFCwell, I thought it important to say that since we're talking about things like GIMPSep 27 16:21
DaemonFCGIMP has had problems and missing features that many users have talked about for yearsSep 27 16:21
ThistleWebimagine trying to sell a PC with a 3:4 screen - taller than wideSep 27 16:21
MinceRnone of those features were the broken photoshop gui, thoughSep 27 16:22
ThistleWebpeople wouldn't accept itSep 27 16:22
DaemonFCPhotoshop doesn't have those gaps and bugs and problems because they have to make good software to justify selling it at the prices they wantSep 27 16:22
ThistleWebmaybe not the bext exampleSep 27 16:22
MinceRThistleWeb: one of my coworkers used his 16:10 monitor in portrait orientation (10:16)Sep 27 16:22
DaemonFCif it was equal to GIMP, everyone would use GIMPSep 27 16:22
MinceRThistleWeb: in fact, many LCDs can be rotated nowSep 27 16:22
ThistleWebyep, there's always the exceptionSep 27 16:22
ThistleWebk, try a different example.....a circular screenSep 27 16:23
ThistleWebnot rectangleSep 27 16:23
MinceRthat won't fit the buffer in memorySep 27 16:23
MinceRthough old CRTs might have been circularSep 27 16:23
MinceRones driven in vector mode, not rasterSep 27 16:23
ThistleWebI mean a circle instead of a rectangleSep 27 16:23
DaemonFCin some ways Apple is like Microsoft, I wouldn't call Apple a monopoly thoughSep 27 16:23
DaemonFCwith 5% of the desktop market and plenty of competing MP3 playersSep 27 16:23
MinceRthey're alike in many waysSep 27 16:23
ThistleWebwhere you have no cornersSep 27 16:24
MinceRsame despotic control freakismSep 27 16:24
MinceRsupport for DRMSep 27 16:24
DaemonFCthe problem with Apple is bundlingSep 27 16:24
MinceRdisregard of quality and the customerSep 27 16:24
DaemonFCiTunes will refuse to work with my competing MP3 playerSep 27 16:24
MinceRthere are many problems with crAppleSep 27 16:24
DaemonFCOS X only comes with an expensive MacSep 27 16:24
DaemonFCso in many ways, Windows is a much more competitive platform than Mac because you can use pretty much anyone's hardware or peripherals or softwareSep 27 16:25
MinceRpretty much anyone m$ allows into the market, that isSep 27 16:25
DaemonFCmeh, hasn't stopped any FOSS from running even though people are still ready to scream bloody murder the second they try itSep 27 16:26
DaemonFCplenty of competing software runs just fine on Windows where it would not on the MacSep 27 16:26
DaemonFCor where Mac users would never botherSep 27 16:27
DaemonFCexample, there's an OpenOffice for Mac but iWork comes with every Mac, built into the priceSep 27 16:27
DaemonFCApple has effectively shut out all the FOSS that does work with OS X by bundling and charging you for their version of that software as part of OS XSep 27 16:28
DaemonFCWhere's the EU or the DOJ to keep Apple honest? Perhaps?Sep 27 16:28
DaemonFCWhy doesn't the EU force iTunes to work with standard MP3 players or for them to cut out the bundling of things like the iLife suite? If competition is important, where are the regulators?Sep 27 16:29
DaemonFCWhere are the fines?Sep 27 16:29
MinceRthe eu is sleeping at the wheelSep 27 16:30
MinceRnotice that iGrenades still aren't banned hereSep 27 16:30
MinceReven after 10 of them exploding in 2 weeks or soSep 27 16:30
DaemonFCiGrenades?Sep 27 16:30
MinceRguess what would have happened if a noname chinese brand phone did the sameSep 27 16:30
MinceRhypePhonesSep 27 16:31
MinceRTime Bomb(tm)sSep 27 16:31
DaemonFCI'm saying that in many ways Apple disgusts me above and beyond anything Microsoft has done or could get away withSep 27 16:31
trmancoschestowitz: og gmail's outageSep 27 16:31
MinceRit disgusts me, tooSep 27 16:31
trmancooh*Sep 27 16:31
MinceRbut i can't really decide whether crApple or m$ is worseSep 27 16:31
MinceRi'd prefer to have both disappear from the worldSep 27 16:32
DaemonFCeven if Windows Mobile spread (unlikely), there's still plenty of competing hardware it runs on and other mobile operating systemsSep 27 16:32
trmancoevery news source misses the point that google released some contact software for the iphone these last daysSep 27 16:32
_Hicham_Apple is MinceR's LoveSep 27 16:32
DaemonFCand Microsoft dowsn't care which carrier you chooseSep 27 16:32
MinceRtrolling is _Hicham_'s callingSep 27 16:32
trmancothey just don't know how to put 2 and 2 togetherSep 27 16:32
trmancoI bet the outages are being caused by thatSep 27 16:32
MinceRwindows mobile fails at basic phone and pda functionalitySep 27 16:32
trmancoan more in the USSep 27 16:32
MinceRending a call takes at least 3 seconds from pressing the buttonSep 27 16:33
MinceRalarms are unreliableSep 27 16:33
DaemonFCWindows Mobile brings prices up a bit, but I still have yet to see any AT&T lock in or any $500 phones (after the subsidization)Sep 27 16:33
trmancosome contact page bug that's in the gmail appSep 27 16:33
DaemonFCalmost anyone I know that's been duped into buying an iPhone will tell you about the slow connections and the constant dropped callsSep 27 16:34
DaemonFCI'd never own oneSep 27 16:34
MinceRneither would iSep 27 16:34
MinceRi think i'll get an n97 or an n900Sep 27 16:34
DaemonFCI have a Blackberry Storm right now, has pretty much every feature of the iPhone including a touch screen, but it has a replaceable battery and external storage and suchSep 27 16:36
DaemonFCmuch better deal, and the phone was $200Sep 27 16:36
DaemonFCApple/Mac has always been mostly a small group of vocal fanboys that romanticize about spending 2-3x what everything is worthSep 27 16:37
*Xarver (n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 16:38
DaemonFCthat's also easy to exploit MinceRSep 27 16:38
MinceRthe blackberry storm doesn't have a keyboardSep 27 16:39
MinceRand the other blackberries don't have a touchscreenSep 27 16:39
DaemonFCI used to buy up refurbished iPods and put in my ebay listing "I have never used this, still in packaging"Sep 27 16:39
DaemonFCmade at least $50 on each oneSep 27 16:39
DaemonFCMinceR, It's easier to type with the touchscreen than it looksSep 27 16:39
DaemonFCthe iPhone isn't really easy to type onSep 27 16:40
MinceRyeah, all the crApple fanboys say that tooSep 27 16:40
DaemonFCand just like an iPod, it's ludicrously easy to scratchSep 27 16:40
MinceRafter all, who cares about ergonomics? who needs tactile feedback anyway?Sep 27 16:40
DaemonFCit makes a click sound when I hit a virtual keySep 27 16:40
_Hicham_MinceR is a retarded personSep 27 16:41
DaemonFCit makes the unit smaller and require less power, and it's still very usableSep 27 16:41
MinceR_Hicham_: die in a fireSep 27 16:41
DaemonFCtradeoff is minimalSep 27 16:41
MinceRclick sounds are uselessSep 27 16:41
DaemonFCthat's why I think the netbooks are retardedSep 27 16:41
MinceRyou don't feel clicks with your fingersSep 27 16:41
DaemonFCa Blackberry can easily replace themSep 27 16:42
MinceRnetbooks have keyboards you can actually type on with all fingersSep 27 16:42
MinceR(depending on finger size, of course -- i need a 10" one)Sep 27 16:42
DaemonFCyeah, they're also hugeSep 27 16:42
DaemonFCshow me a netbook that fits in my pocket and that I can make phone calls withSep 27 16:42
_Hicham_MinceR can't feel clicks because he lacks any kind of sense at allSep 27 16:42
MinceRthey also have a screen of usable sizeSep 27 16:42
MinceRshow me a phone you can read scanned (non-ocr) book pdfs inSep 27 16:43
MinceR_Hicham_: gtfoSep 27 16:43
DaemonFCmy Blackberry can also last a couple days at least on one charge, netbooks suck the battery dry within 5-6 hoursSep 27 16:43
DaemonFCand the Blackberry doubles as an MP3 playerSep 27 16:43
MinceRnope, not all netbooks doSep 27 16:43
_Hicham_show me a person who is older in time than MinceRSep 27 16:43
MinceR_Hicham_: stfuSep 27 16:44
DaemonFCthe only thing I don't like about the Blackberry is that I can't get it to play VorbisSep 27 16:44
MinceRstrange, my qtek 9100 could play vorbisSep 27 16:44
MinceRperhaps blackberries aren't all they're cracked up to be? :>Sep 27 16:45
DaemonFCI probably should search for an application that can do thatSep 27 16:45
MinceRwell said, Captain ObviousSep 27 16:45
DaemonFCMinceR, Vorbis has been becoming more mainstreamSep 27 16:46
DaemonFCslow and steady thoughSep 27 16:46
DaemonFCit because it has the capability to produce really small files that still sound goodSep 27 16:46
DaemonFCso it's been very popular with video gamesSep 27 16:47
DaemonFCa lot of XBOX 360 titles use Ogg Vorbis even though Microsoft waves the WMA license fee, lolSep 27 16:47
DaemonFCif something is good enough, it shouldn't need advertising, it should just do something better than anyone else can or has bothered toSep 27 16:48
DaemonFCpeople will noticeSep 27 16:48
*twitter1 (n=willhill@97-113-231-152.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 16:49
DaemonFCthe reason Vorbis is an easier sell than Linux is because Vorbis is a very purpose driven project, it only has to do one thing to make people happy, and it doesn't require you to do anything like wipe your hard disk to find out if it's useful to youSep 27 16:49
MinceRso i take it you haven't heard of Wubi nor virtualization :>Sep 27 16:50
DaemonFCa desktop Linux system has to be a general purpose project that has to satisfy many different kinds of users and be good for many kinds of applications or projectsSep 27 16:50
MinceRhm, or partition resizing :>Sep 27 16:50
DaemonFCyou start talking about the partitioning, you scare off a lot of peopleSep 27 16:51
DaemonFCthat's sort of the reason for WubiSep 27 16:51
DaemonFCbut Wubi has problems of its ownSep 27 16:51
DaemonFCFirst, if anything happens to Windows, your Linux installation is probably also toastSep 27 16:51
DaemonFCSecond, it runs slowerSep 27 16:51
DaemonFCThird, things like power management don't work right, so sleep and hibernate are not thereSep 27 16:52
DaemonFCsomething that amused me was cooperative LinuxSep 27 16:52
DaemonFCWindows and Linux running side by sideSep 27 16:53
DaemonFCMinceR, Most of what turned me off to MPEG 4 AAC was that there are no useful open source encodersSep 27 16:55
_Hicham_the unified kernel projectSep 27 16:55
DaemonFCnothing that provides the same quality as NeroSep 27 16:55
MinceRDaemonFC: isn't that heavily patent-encumberedSep 27 16:55
MinceR?Sep 27 16:55
DaemonFCMinceR, Meh, kindaSep 27 16:55
DaemonFCit's kind of hard to do anything about it thoughSep 27 16:56
_Hicham_did u buy Nero ?Sep 27 16:56
DaemonFC_Hicham_, The Nero AAC encoder is freewareSep 27 16:56
DaemonFCfor Windows/Linux/MacSep 27 16:56
DaemonFCI just am not comfortable depending on closed source software for something like thisSep 27 16:56
DaemonFCFAAC is very badSep 27 16:57
DaemonFCthat's the FOSS AAC encoderSep 27 16:57
MinceRif it's patent-encumbered and they want to charge an arm and a leg for the patent license, you're pretty much stuck with proprietary software.Sep 27 16:57
DaemonFCmost of the FAAC developers quit and went to work for Nero a couple years agoSep 27 16:57
DaemonFCMinceR, I don't pay patent licenses, never haveSep 27 16:57
DaemonFCnot even when I used MP3Sep 27 16:58
MinceRDaemonFC: doesn't mean that the author of the gratis proprietary tool you're using did neither.Sep 27 16:58
DaemonFCI just used LAME to encodeSep 27 16:58
DaemonFCusually mpg123 to play itSep 27 16:58
DaemonFCI compiled an mpg123 plugin for WinampSep 27 16:59
DaemonFCstill use it to play MP3Sep 27 16:59
DaemonFCvery good decoder, uses hardly any CPU resources at allSep 27 16:59
DaemonFCMinceR, As long as you distribute your encoder as source code only, I've never heard of anyone being suedSep 27 17:00
MinceRdoesn't mean they can't be suedSep 27 17:01
DaemonFCLAME's disclaimer is that they're just an educational tool to demonstrate how you could make an MP3 encoderSep 27 17:01
DaemonFCMinceR, That will never happenSep 27 17:01
MinceRdon't tell me, tell the developers :>Sep 27 17:01
DaemonFCcompanies like Nullsoft use LAME in their program and pay license fees to FhGSep 27 17:01
DaemonFCFhG is making too much money off LAME to ever want to sue itSep 27 17:01
MinceRi don't really care about AACSep 27 17:01
DaemonFCyou don't kill the goose that laid the golden egg, MinceRSep 27 17:02
DaemonFCthat's what I think it happening with LAMESep 27 17:02
DaemonFCif someone wanted to come along and make something I own the patents on 10 times better and they made me a pile of money in doing it, I would never sue themSep 27 17:03
DaemonFCwould you?Sep 27 17:03
MinceRi don't care, i'll just use vorbis and FLAC :>Sep 27 17:03
DaemonFCmy point is that MP3 has for all intents and purposes, been FOSS for the last 10 yearsSep 27 17:04
DaemonFCthe only thing that is holding MP3 back is that it is old and there are design limitations that can't be fixed without breaking decoder compatibilitySep 27 17:05
DaemonFCthat's what all these other formats were designed to fixSep 27 17:05
DaemonFCthe thing about patents is that they expire, and a lot of the really bad ones on MP3 already haveSep 27 17:06
DaemonFCthe funny thing about that is that since MP3 was essentially the first of its kind, they had to register most of the patents that apply to digital audio overall to cover itSep 27 17:07
_Hicham_MinceR uses Quicktime format all the timeSep 27 17:08
DaemonFCmeaning when they expire, it will also do a lot to damage the credibility of any patent claims on VorbisSep 27 17:08
MinceR_Hicham_: die in a fireSep 27 17:08
_Hicham_MinceR : why do u want me to die ?Sep 27 17:08
MinceR_Hicham_: die in a fireSep 27 17:08
_Hicham_MinceR wants me to die so that he can enjoy Apple stuff in secretSep 27 17:09
DaemonFChttp://www.newsday.com/entertainment/swiss-arrest-polanski-on-us-request-in-sex-case-1.1479993Sep 27 17:10
phIRCeTitle: Swiss arrest Polanski on US request in sex case .::. Size~: 106.65 KBSep 27 17:10
MinceR_Hicham_: die in a fireSep 27 17:11
DaemonFChttp://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/09/26/mekong.species/Sep 27 17:12
phIRCeTitle: Bird-eating frog among 163 new species found in Mekong region - CNN.com .::. Size~: 72.39 KBSep 27 17:12
DaemonFCbird eating frog, roflSep 27 17:13
*DaemonFC wonders when they'll find a _Hicham_ eating frogSep 27 17:15
DaemonFCnow there's something I'd buySep 27 17:15
MinceRsign me up, tooSep 27 17:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @adyelysium VGR Post: : The Hazards of Dating a Gamer: Love At First Frag http://bit.ly/5GaFzSep 27 17:16
phIRCeTitle: The Hazards of Dating a Gamer: Love At First Frag | Video Game Reviews .::. Size~: 51.93 KBSep 27 17:16
*_Hicham_ thinks that DaemonFC was eating from trashes before MS began sponsoring his activitiesSep 27 17:17
DaemonFCnot sponsored by MicrosoftSep 27 17:17
DaemonFCI do a combination of odd jobs, some days I'm busy and some days I sit here in my underwear and talk to _Hicham_Sep 27 17:17
DaemonFCwould you like some iced tea?Sep 27 17:18
MinceRTMISep 27 17:18
DaemonFC:)Sep 27 17:18
_Hicham_what a polite man !Sep 27 17:18
DaemonFCMinceR, I make less money than I did in retail management, but I'm more or less free to do anything I like most of the timeSep 27 17:18
DaemonFCthat's a good trade in my bookSep 27 17:18
DaemonFCno more 60 hour workweeksSep 27 17:19
MinceRi was referring to the underwear thingSep 27 17:19
DaemonFC_Hicham_, I'm just full of classSep 27 17:19
*DaemonFC belches loudly Sep 27 17:19
DaemonFCmoney or time is always the trade offSep 27 17:20
DaemonFCsalary, in retail, is code for unpaid overtimeSep 27 17:20
amarsh04and also technically means paid monthlySep 27 17:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC is living on welfare+MSfareSep 27 17:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @ladyelysium VGR Post: : The Hazards of Dating a Gamer: Love At First Frag http://bit.ly/5GaFz Slashdot: http://is.gd/3J1c0Sep 27 17:25
phIRCeTitle: The Hazards of Dating a Gamer: Love At First Frag | Video Game Reviews .::. Size~: 51.93 KBSep 27 17:25
phIRCeTitle: Slashdot Submission | The Hazards of Dating a Gamer: Love At First Frag .::. Size~: 46.44 KBSep 27 17:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @nipra: RT @ghoseb Javascript summarized in one picture http://bit.ly/1JgJsa Funny but true.Sep 27 17:30
MinceRdamn, some of the official download links for kde3.5 are deadSep 27 17:30
twitter1oh God, http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/27/0252235/AU-Government-To-Build-Unhackable-Netbooks?art_pos=4Sep 27 17:31
phIRCeTitle: Slashdot News Story | AU Government To Build "Unhackable" Netbooks .::. Size~: 147.92 KBSep 27 17:31
amarsh04I posted that earlier twitter1Sep 27 17:32
twitter1Windows 7 forced onto 250,000 students.Sep 27 17:32
twitter1I missed it hereSep 27 17:32
twitter1but thanksSep 27 17:32
amarsh04does it reference any other URL's? I don't go on to slashdot.org muchSep 27 17:33
twitter1250,000 unusable computers sold with a phantom OS.Sep 27 17:33
MinceRluckily, it's still on the gentoo mirrorsSep 27 17:34
amarsh04there has to be a few kickbacks or coercions from ms somewhereSep 27 17:35
MinceRi don't know why the kde developers want to kill 3.5 so badlySep 27 17:35
amarsh04I like having snapshot.debian.net alsoSep 27 17:35
MinceRdebian/ubuntu would have been my next guessSep 27 17:35
MinceRopera is being a little comatose now, so i might need to try something elseSep 27 17:35
amarsh04neither do I, MinceRSep 27 17:36
*Xarver has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 27 17:36
MinceRis this the long-awaited, highly acclaimed opera 10 that was supposed to be better and faster?Sep 27 17:37
twitter1I like the second headline from the linked story ->  The world's "most hostile computing environment"Sep 27 17:37
MinceRit crashed at the Save As dialog.Sep 27 17:37
twitter1what OS?Sep 27 17:37
*Xarver (n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 17:37
MinceRdebian 5.0.1Sep 27 17:37
twitter1hmmm.Sep 27 17:37
twitter1that's non free software for youSep 27 17:37
MinceRsomeone please write a browser that doesn't suck.Sep 27 17:37
amarsh04I use Midori if I want something quick for data entry on a site that requires data entrySep 27 17:38
MinceRat least firefox is getting betterSep 27 17:38
*sldf (i=5496cf11@gateway/web/freenode/x-bfzfdiwizlmenaks) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 17:38
MinceRiron wouldn't even run after installSep 27 17:38
MinceRi tried to compile it but couldn't even find where to startSep 27 17:38
MinceRso i gave up on ironSep 27 17:38
amarsh04it was a problem with one of my old jobs... lots of data entry via browser, needed javascript and good keystroke commandsSep 27 17:39
amarsh04Midori also does fine with google mapsSep 27 17:39
MinceRi installed opera for the links sidebar nowSep 27 17:39
MinceRif DownThemAll had an option to copy the URLs, i wouldn't need thatSep 27 17:40
amarsh04was funny that I needed both google maps and openstreetmap.org to get all the data I wanted about one location - where a tram line runs between two salt pans - google omitted the tram line, openstreetmap omitted the salt pansSep 27 17:40
twitter1Konq has a nice sidebar, but I hate sidebars and never use it.Sep 27 17:41
MinceR:DSep 27 17:41
twitter1I prefer Konq's bookmark bar, which has folders and sub folders.Sep 27 17:42
XarverKonq is slow and yahoo refuses to let me access :PSep 27 17:42
twitter1the most hostile computing rollout ever has already, "tracked one teacher using their device on a field trip in New Zealand."  how reassuring!Sep 27 17:42
twitter1Wherever you go with your shiny new IBM/Vista 7 netbook, big brother will be with you.Sep 27 17:43
MinceRand you will love big brotherSep 27 17:43
MinceRor elseSep 27 17:43
twitter1LOL they are really going to get nailed alright > "There was no way we could do any of this on XP," he said. "Windows 7 nailed it for us."Sep 27 17:44
twitter1They think they are going to be able to "upgrade" these things remotely by wireless while the kids are in school.  I'm laughing my ass off.Sep 27 17:45
MinceRthey'll "upgrade" themselves automatically, like beforeSep 27 17:46
MinceRthey'll just disable the part where it asks the userSep 27 17:46
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] 54 Twitter spambot adds in the last five minutes. @spam needs a bulk interface ...Sep 27 17:47
twitter1That works with Debian but Windows 7 with "Microsoft Office, the Adobe CS4 creative suite, Apple iTunes, and content geared specifically to students." is going to be a mess, before they are made part of a botnet.Sep 27 17:47
twitter1I'm sure the 20,000 unit pilot program is already a mess, but M$ has bribed the right people.Sep 27 17:48
MinceRthe kde download page is a messSep 27 17:49
MinceR"arts-1.5.10" links to arts-1.5.9, which is missing from all the mirrorsSep 27 17:49
twitter1It's like McDonalds and Taco Bell bribed the schools to take over the cafeterias and then bragged that every kid would get a big mac and a pepsi every day.Sep 27 17:50
twitter1Most hostile eating environment ever!Sep 27 17:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the new uk childcare rules really are that insane http://is.gd/3J3fd please sign PM petition http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/reciprocalcc/Sep 27 17:51
phIRCeTitle: BBC NEWS | UK | Childcare help 'could be illegal' .::. Size~: 52.36 KBSep 27 17:51
phIRCeTitle: Introduction to e-petitions | Number10.gov.uk .::. Size~: 11.23 KBSep 27 17:51
MinceRand they name kdevelop-3.5.3 and link to it, but it doesn't exist, only 3.5.4 doesSep 27 17:52
twitter1Kids fling food.  Big macs are protected against food fight protests with a special, just for kids, layer of wax around that must be bitten through.  Mess is reduced by 90%!Sep 27 17:52
twitter1Food goodness is factory sealed.Sep 27 17:52
MinceRwhat is the layer of wax on?Sep 27 17:53
twitter1the extra effort of chewing and spitting out wax builds healthy jaw muscles and makes kid take time to appreciate their food.Sep 27 17:53
amarsh04"Windows 7 crucifies education" - if "Windows 7 nailed it for us"Sep 27 17:53
MinceRvista7 put a nail in education's coffin?Sep 27 17:54
twitter1Oh, I imagined the food equivalent of anti-virus for windows was to dip the food in wax.Sep 27 17:54
MinceRoh.Sep 27 17:54
twitter1Wax covered big macs, the perfect food for growing children.Sep 27 17:54
twitter1just like maximally restricted Windows and iTunes is the perfect software for studentsSep 27 17:55
amarsh04if all you have is a hammer "Windows 7", then everything looks like a nailSep 27 17:55
twitter1Yeah, but it was nice of them to develop a few token educational programs "just for kids" to put on top of those worthless corporate netbooks.Sep 27 17:56
twitter1Surely the TCO of recreating all of the freely available educational software from KDE will be seen on the bottom line, when kids learn how to be good consumers.Sep 27 17:57
twitter1Don't want those dirty free textbooks from Wikipedia teaching anyone anything, now do we?Sep 27 17:58
twitter1Why give consumers a periodic table, dictionary, thesaurus, math plotters, compilers, debuggers or other tools for learning?Sep 27 17:58
MinceRi don't see what's their problem with letting kids learn from wikipediaSep 27 17:59
MinceRkids get access to various political agendas that way too :>Sep 27 17:59
twitter1Neither do I, but I wonder if maximally restricted Vista 7 will even be able to browse Wikipedia.Sep 27 17:59
amarsh04I liked showing the grand-daughter that the bug she found in childsplay (free software) was fixed following my bug reportSep 27 17:59
twitter1Chances are, some ass will put Wikipedia on a blacklist to keep kids from being able to look up the word "cunt"Sep 27 18:00
twitter1That will be a good excuse, at least.  The goal is to stifle free software and sharing in general.  Wikipedia is a showcase of both.Sep 27 18:01
amarsh04wikipedia helped me find a free as in freedom (source code supplied) pdf reader for ms-windowsSep 27 18:01
amarsh04I put that on a younger family member's laptop and removed the pre-installed acrobat reader bloatSep 27 18:02
twitter1Well .... you won't be able to install that free as freedom pdf reader on your new, restricted Windows 7 netbook, so why should they care if you could find it on Wikipedia.  Ban the site!Sep 27 18:02
twitter1The new netbooks come with the entire "creative suite" from adobe.  What could be nicer than that?Sep 27 18:03
twitter1Don't you dare try to remove it!Sep 27 18:03
twitter1The school will detect your transgression a continent away, and put it back, shortly after noting it in your permanent record.Sep 27 18:04
twitter1These days, "permanent record" has a little more scare factor to it than it used to when that record was just some book in the principle's office.Sep 27 18:05
amarsh04http://blog.kowalczyk.info/software/sumatrapdf/index.htmlSep 27 18:05
phIRCeTitle: Sumatra PDF viewer by Krzysztof Kowalczyk .::. Size~: 3.31 KBSep 27 18:05
twitter1I can imagine them sharing all the goods with your insurance company, for example.Sep 27 18:06
twitter1kpdf rocksSep 27 18:06
MinceRindeedSep 27 18:06
amarsh04yes, I use kpdf on this machineSep 27 18:06
MinceRit's a pity it was replaced with okularSep 27 18:06
twitter1high speed and browser integrationSep 27 18:06
twitter1hmmm, I have not seen that.Sep 27 18:07
amarsh04too many linux software developers have forgotten what lightweight means - xmms2 is an order of magnitude more resource intensive than xmms 1.2Sep 27 18:07
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twitter1Wow, konq on 4.3 does perform betterSep 27 18:11
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twitter1hmmm, I take that back, Wikipedia is doing well today.Sep 27 18:12
twitter1Loaded very quickly on both 4.3 and 3.5Sep 27 18:12
twitter1I have to say that 4.3 is a vast improvement over 4.2Sep 27 18:12
twitter1it acts a lot smoother.Sep 27 18:12
twitter1PDF reading in Konq now seems to come from "PDF Backend" by Albert CidSep 27 18:17
twitter1I have version 0.2.1Sep 27 18:17
twitter1It looks and acts like kpdfSep 27 18:17
twitter1except it has a different way of switching tabs (contents, thumbnails, reviews, bookmarks) that is more obvious than kpdf but it eats more space.Sep 27 18:19
twitter1backends is using ghostscript, of courseSep 27 18:20
twitter1ick, it has a checkbox for "obey digital restrictions" as if anyone would chose to be restricted.Sep 27 18:22
MinceRwell, at least it lets you know it normally doesn'tSep 27 18:22
MinceRalso, it gives you the option to see how bad it would be if it did :>Sep 27 18:22
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twitter1I suppose they are bowing to laws in insane countries like the USA.  they can distribute it as restriction compliant without breaking those laws but they can't help what the user does.Sep 27 18:23
twitter1backend has a handy presentation mode, so you might be able to convert all of the crappy power point presentations in your life to PDF and use Konq when giving lectures.Sep 27 18:25
twitter1it also ties in with kate or the editor of your choice.  those are interesting.Sep 27 18:26
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MinceRit's better to do them in beamer in the first place :>Sep 27 18:26
twitter1thumbnail performance is as good or better than kpdf, but presentation of pages is a little slow by X forwarding via 802.11bSep 27 18:27
twitter1I still have some system related font problems on my install but these are minor and a great improvement over 4.2Sep 27 18:29
twitter1my verdict is very nice and promising but I'm not ready to give up 3.5Sep 27 18:29
twitter1Surely either is better than XP or Vista.Sep 27 18:30
twitter1Debian testing is moving along nicely.Sep 27 18:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] most depressing search term of the day for NotN: "jade goody naced"Sep 27 18:32
MinceRi'm trying to install 3.5 into stowSep 27 18:33
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twitter1OK, here are the direct links to M$'s lame party video and the remix.  First the remix http://www.youtube.com/v/gyas7BrbUFYSep 27 18:40
twitter1now the cringe thing http://www.youtube.com/v/1cX4t5-YpHQSep 27 18:40
twitter1I have yet to watch this crap because they all use nasty flash containers.Sep 27 18:40
twitter1I had to extract them by looking at html source on engadget, ick.Sep 27 18:41
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schestowitzSlashdot is hopefully paid by Microsoft because they have just FPed a Microsoft advert from Microsoft buddy Brett WinterfordSep 27 18:51
*twitter1 laughs and laughs at M$ Launch PartySep 27 18:51
twitter1they really expect LUG like activity from their hapless victims?Sep 27 18:52
schestowitzHeh. "obey digital restrictions"Sep 27 18:53
twitter1despite the bad acting and corny lines, M$ has actually compiled a nice LUG session.  I think LUGs around the country should have Freedom Lauch parties, where they do exactly what M$ thinks Windows 7 can do.Sep 27 18:53
schestowitzNot rights?Sep 27 18:53
twitter1you have no rights when others can make arbitrary restrictionsSep 27 18:54
schestowitzI knowSep 27 18:54
twitter1rightSep 27 18:54
schestowitzBut does it say it?Sep 27 18:54
schestowitzA la fsfSep 27 18:54
twitter1hmmm, does what say what?Sep 27 18:54
schestowitzthe guiSep 27 18:55
schestowitz"restrictions"Sep 27 18:55
twitter1ah, Backend.Sep 27 18:55
schestowitzTurns out that Linus uses microemacs as his editorSep 27 18:56
schestowitzBut he emphaises it has nothing to do with gnu emacsSep 27 18:56
twitter1It uses the term "DRM limitations"Sep 27 18:56
schestowitzVery imporatnt for him to distance himself from rms' babySep 27 18:56
twitter1"obey DRM limitations"Sep 27 18:56
schestowitzHe uses Fedora on all his machinesSep 27 18:56
twitter1now now Roy, be kindSep 27 18:57
trmancothis is strangeSep 27 18:57
schestowitzHe mentioned Novell colleagues in his new interviewSep 27 18:57
twitter1Linus owned up to using a version of emacs.  I know that he tried to distance it, but that's laughable.Sep 27 18:57
schestowitzyo, balzacSep 27 18:57
twitter1he also said that he distro hopsSep 27 18:58
schestowitzbalzac once spotted this in an old (2001) interviewSep 27 18:58
twitter1Fedora is only his current distro.Sep 27 18:58
schestowitzSome say it's a subcoonscious attempt to distance himself from his dadSep 27 18:58
schestowitztwitter1: yesSep 27 18:58
schestowitzHe changesSep 27 18:58
schestowitzjono didn't market Debians to himSep 27 18:58
twitter1He's far away from his family, that is difficult.Sep 27 18:59
schestowitzhttp://icewalkerz.blogspot.com/2009/09/install-ms-true-type-fonts-in-fedora.htmlSep 27 18:59
phIRCeTitle: IceWalkerZ :- Born Free Live Free !!: Install MS True Type Fonts in Fedora .::. Size~: 89.85 KBSep 27 18:59
schestowitzWhy is his family staying in Helsinki?Sep 27 18:59
schestowitzOr rather, why doesn't he work from there?Sep 27 19:00
twitter1No, he says he has his wife and kids with him.Sep 27 19:00
schestowitzHe works from the basement with E-mailSep 27 19:00
schestowitzAnyway, it doesn't matterSep 27 19:00
schestowitzToo personalSep 27 19:00
schestowitzHe does excellent stuffSep 27 19:00
twitter1He lives in California, from what I gathered.  His extended family, I'm sure, does not live in the basement with him.Sep 27 19:00
schestowitzThe Novell devs he works with are kernel people first, Novell laterSep 27 19:00
twitter1That is hard, even if you have the money to fly.Sep 27 19:00
schestowitzPolandSep 27 19:01
schestowitzNot CA anymoreSep 27 19:01
schestowitzPortlandSep 27 19:01
schestowitzWeird typo there.Sep 27 19:01
twitter1Of course, many people work so hard that physical distance is only a second barrier to sharing your life with the your family.Sep 27 19:01
schestowitzMinceR: Ingo is from HungarySep 27 19:02
schestowitzMolnarSep 27 19:02
twitter1I'm getting hungry myself.Sep 27 19:02
schestowitzEay a MinceD cowSep 27 19:02
MinceRi knowSep 27 19:02
twitter1don't think I have any paprikaSep 27 19:02
schestowitz*eatSep 27 19:02
twitter1do have beer, that makes anything taste okSep 27 19:03
schestowitzI'll post some news soonSep 27 19:03
schestowitzMicrosoft didn't attack rivals this week for a changeSep 27 19:03
schestowitzBut it's imploding so badlySep 27 19:03
schestowitzIt's fun watching themSep 27 19:03
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.38.133.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 19:06
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twitter1I think the renewed sexism attack should be counted as an attack on rivals last week.Sep 27 19:15
twitter1it was dirty and indirect but it was an attackSep 27 19:15
schestowitzThe Murphy troll: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=1691Sep 27 19:24
schestowitzFor entertainment onlySep 27 19:24
schestowitztwitter1: yes, I have another posts on itSep 27 19:24
schestowitzMy defense of RMS on Friday got many thousands of viewers and referecingSep 27 19:25
schestowitzI took time to put it carefully and people saw it link-worthySep 27 19:25
schestowitzSame with ShuttleworthSep 27 19:25
schestowitzThere'a another one going onSep 27 19:25
schestowitzThey are lynching RMS and the GPLSep 27 19:25
twitter1has the attack on Perens spread yet?Sep 27 19:26
schestowitzThis site is great: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/ubuntu-install.htmlSep 27 19:26
schestowitzSpread?Sep 27 19:26
schestowitzI didn't know Perens was attackedSep 27 19:26
schestowitzHe's got a family and he's not sexistSep 27 19:26
schestowitzHis son stanley ought to be like 14 nowSep 27 19:26
schestowitzRMS has no familySep 27 19:27
wallclimbertwitter1, i thought it was odd that after the announcement of IBM partnering up with Canonical in Africa, both Bob Sudor and Mark Shuttleworth were jumped on for comments they'd madeSep 27 19:27
schestowitzGNU is his babySep 27 19:27
schestowitzAnd he's attacked from many directionsSep 27 19:27
schestowitzThe Big Business hates him witn passionSep 27 19:27
schestowitzRMS influenced timbl, which created the WWW and now 'ruins' newspapers and stuffSep 27 19:27
twitter1I told you about the attack on Bruce last night.  You kept reading it wrong....Sep 27 19:27
schestowitzwallclimber: yesSep 27 19:27
twitter1Now lefty had jumped on it.Sep 27 19:28
schestowitzI saw this announcement in Bob's blog firstSep 27 19:28
schestowitzHe pointed to NYTSep 27 19:28
schestowitzIt was like a 'plant' for themSep 27 19:28
twitter1it came from Skud of Geekfeminism, it seems.Sep 27 19:28
schestowitzPR with embardo/NDASep 27 19:28
schestowitz*goSep 27 19:28
schestowitzSkud is OKSep 27 19:28
twitter1she took his statements out of context badly and painted him is a sexistSep 27 19:28
schestowitzDont' go hard on herSep 27 19:28
schestowitztwitter1: no, those who cited her maybe didSep 27 19:28
twitter1what she said was wrong, scroll up and you will see.Sep 27 19:28
schestowitzShe was quite polite, IMHOSep 27 19:28
schestowitzAnd she relied on people's word of mouthSep 27 19:29
twitter1no, what she said was simply wrong.Sep 27 19:29
schestowitzOh.Sep 27 19:29
twitter1well she got spunSep 27 19:29
schestowitzDid she retract then?Sep 27 19:29
twitter1I don't think so.Sep 27 19:29
schestowitzCause she signed by saying, if I'm wring, then I apologiseSep 27 19:29
schestowitzNo big deal.Sep 27 19:29
twitter1she's dug in and I doubt she will.Sep 27 19:29
schestowitzI doubt it was badly intendedSep 27 19:29
twitter1Ah, I missed the "if I'm wrong" bit.Sep 27 19:29
schestowitzDavid Gerard knows herSep 27 19:30
schestowitzShe's now trouble if he knew her for like 15 yearsSep 27 19:30
schestowitztwitter1: read end of letterSep 27 19:30
schestowitz"The Open Leter"Sep 27 19:30
twitter1it's pretty apparent from what I read that Perens wants to know why women are not going into free softwareSep 27 19:30
twitter1and that Parens has an open mind about things and is NOT as sexist by any meansSep 27 19:31
schestowitzTo counter her is misdirected IMHOSep 27 19:31
schestowitzTuc Machines upset me more cause of Susan's disdain for UbuntuSep 27 19:31
schestowitzShe keeps linking to it, but not linking itSep 27 19:31
twitter1crap.  I cleared my scroll backSep 27 19:31
schestowitzThe attacks on RMS are worseSep 27 19:31
schestowitzAnd petty Miguel plays a victim...Sep 27 19:32
twitter1I just did a google search http://www.google.com/search?q=bruce+perens+sexist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Sep 27 19:32
phIRCeTitle: bruce perens sexist - Google Search .::. Size~: 22.3 KBSep 27 19:32
twitter1looky looky at Lefty making the same trouble for Perens as he did for RMSSep 27 19:32
schestowitzI see that the usual troll wrote about itSep 27 19:33
twitter1I'm not going to paste a link to that trash here.Sep 27 19:33
schestowitzI wouldn't pay attention to itSep 27 19:33
schestowitzWhere's Perens anyway?Sep 27 19:33
schestowitzHe has gone quietSep 27 19:33
twitter1Yes, he took the ball and ran with it.  It's just as bad as the attack on RMS.Sep 27 19:33
schestowitzHe has his personal blog nowSep 27 19:33
schestowitzAnd he had some job/project goingSep 27 19:33
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twitter1Perens has been commenting like a madman on the lwnSep 27 19:33
twitter1check the IRC logs, I dug it all up yesterdaySep 27 19:34
schestowitzWaste of timeSep 27 19:34
twitter1or the day beforeSep 27 19:34
schestowitzLeave it aloneSep 27 19:34
schestowitzIt's like talking about linsuxSep 27 19:34
twitter1you will see and then you will want the linksSep 27 19:34
schestowitzI don'tSep 27 19:34
schestowitzWaste of timeSep 27 19:34
twitter1and yes, it's a waste of time, that's the whole point of the attackSep 27 19:34
schestowitzI have lots of MSFT newsSep 27 19:34
schestowitzI'll start posting tonightSep 27 19:35
twitter1coolSep 27 19:35
twitter1keep at itSep 27 19:35
schestowitzAbout 10 posts comingSep 27 19:35
schestowitzI have to group items firstSep 27 19:35
wallclimberten?  oh no!Sep 27 19:35
twitter1but the M$ people are going to keep slandering FOSS leaders with this trashSep 27 19:35
wallclimber:)Sep 27 19:35
wallclimberi always read BN while drinking my coffee, sometimes i forget to start work...hehSep 27 19:36
twitter1and it's such hypocrisySep 27 19:36
wallclimberwhat's bad about these recent attacks is that they know exactly what buttons to push to get people worked up...i think everyone's nerves are a little on edge lately...Sep 27 19:37
schestowitzhttp://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=little_annoyances_moving_into_ubuntu&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1Sep 27 19:38
phIRCeTitle: Penguin Pete's Blog .::. Size~: 32.78 KBSep 27 19:38
schestowitztwitter1: So don't feed the trashers > but the M$ people are going to keep slandering FOSS leaders with this trashSep 27 19:38
schestowitzLet them dry upSep 27 19:38
schestowitzThen they'll talk lessSep 27 19:38
schestowitzLook at Asay (ping MinceR )Sep 27 19:38
schestowitzHe blogs like 1/5 of what he used toSep 27 19:38
schestowitzSo he's gone off the rail, sort offSep 27 19:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Tory candidate not working for PR company http://bit.ly/2zIJiSep 27 19:39
twitter1Note that I did not link to trash bag #1 and the coordinator of this attack.Sep 27 19:39
schestowitzHis harms to FOSS can't be done as much as they used to when he mae FPs of stuffSep 27 19:39
phIRCeTitle: Tory candidate not working for PR company - News of the News .::. Size~: 31.94 KBSep 27 19:39
amarsh04I have not been able to understand where Asay is coming from or going toSep 27 19:39
schestowitzwallclimber: thanksSep 27 19:39
wallclimber:)Sep 27 19:39
schestowitzI usually think of you when I do the post and try to adjust the toneSep 27 19:39
schestowitzSometimes TiemannSep 27 19:39
wallclimberi've noticed!Sep 27 19:39
schestowitzIf I write if when daemon in mind, I'd be trashySep 27 19:40
twitter1yes, you can't have wallclimber laugh too hard now that you know she's got a cup of coffee in her hand.  coffee is so messy when you spill it.Sep 27 19:40
schestowitzLook back at 2006 postsSep 27 19:40
schestowitzIt was a lot more bluntSep 27 19:40
schestowitzANdy Updegrove made some suggestionsSep 27 19:40
twitter1I like blunt.Sep 27 19:41
schestowitztwitter1: na, I can mail her a keyboardSep 27 19:41
schestowitztwitter1: blunt = no effective at influencingSep 27 19:41
schestowitzEsp. 'outside' the 'choir'Sep 27 19:41
wallclimberI have lots of keyboards, plus i'm good at tossing them in the sink and giving them a good scrubbingSep 27 19:42
schestowitzIt doesn't help that MinceR keeps wishing for people to "Die in a fire"|Sep 27 19:42
twitter1the best way to diffuse that is to look at the context and diffuse the lie -> (11:39:05 AM) wallclimber: what's bad about these recent attacks is that they know exactly what buttons to push to get people worked up...i think everyone's nerves are a little on edge lately...Sep 27 19:42
schestowitzwallclimber: I have 3Sep 27 19:42
MinceRschestowitz: well, hicham is let to troll so what can i tell him when he attacks me?Sep 27 19:42
wallclimberi have a closet full of mouses and keyboards...people keep giving them to me for some reason.Sep 27 19:42
twitter1direct is often best.  -> schestowitz: twitter1: blunt = no effective at influencingSep 27 19:42
schestowitzMinceR: I wasn't followingSep 27 19:42
MinceRschestowitz: he always does the same thingSep 27 19:43
schestowitztwitter1: not reallySep 27 19:43
MinceRanyway, /lastlog _hicham_Sep 27 19:43
schestowitzIn USENET I'm directSep 27 19:43
schestowitzSaying MAFIAA is not comical to everyoneSep 27 19:43
MinceRif you saw me telling him to die in a fire you had to see what he said before thatSep 27 19:43
twitter1MAFIAA is not direct either.Sep 27 19:44
schestowitzMinceR: he feeds the troublemakersSep 27 19:44
schestowitzI'd just ignore it if I were youSep 27 19:44
MinceRhe's a troublemaker himselfSep 27 19:44
*twitter1 feeds troll bits to /dev/nullSep 27 19:44
MinceRi'd just permban him if i were youSep 27 19:44
schestowitzYou pick a fight w/ many peopleSep 27 19:44
MinceRso if i respond to a troll, it's me who picked the fight? that's certainly an interesting view.Sep 27 19:45
twitter1are you two picking a fight with each other?Sep 27 19:45
schestowitztwitter1: http://ekaia.org/blog/2009/09/26/how-to-get-your-bugs-solved-in-debian-kde/Sep 27 19:46
yuhong_I put a lot of links in the comments there:Sep 27 19:46
phIRCeTitle: Anas blog  » Blog Archive   » How to get your bugs solved in Debian+KDE .::. Size~: 17.51 KBSep 27 19:46
yuhong_http://boycottnovell.com/2009/09/25/do-not-boycott-ubuntu/Sep 27 19:46
phIRCeTitle: DONT Boycott Ubuntu | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 186.53 KBSep 27 19:46
twitter1thanks ShestowitzSep 27 19:47
schestowitzMinceR: best way to avoid it is keep silentSep 27 19:47
schestowitzSilence is gold when someone annoysSep 27 19:47
schestowitzIt discourages the nuisanceSep 27 19:47
schestowitzLike petholoogical E-mails I getSep 27 19:47
MinceRyes, you've told me already that the best way to handle trolls here is for everyone to keep silent when they appearSep 27 19:47
MinceRandit doesn't workSep 27 19:47
schestowitzI just ignore themSep 27 19:47
MinceRs/di/d i/Sep 27 19:47
schestowitzI does workSep 27 19:48
MinceRif the ops ignore the trolls, who will get rid of them?Sep 27 19:48
schestowitzThey leave when they get boredSep 27 19:48
trmancoschestowitz: what charset do you use on bn?Sep 27 19:48
MinceRand how will the public log ignore them?Sep 27 19:48
MinceRyou could at least silence themSep 27 19:48
trmancoI doesn't look like utf-8Sep 27 19:48
MinceRwith +b %Sep 27 19:48
schestowitzHi, yuhong_Sep 27 19:48
schestowitzurf8 I thinkSep 27 19:48
schestowitz*tfSep 27 19:48
schestowitzYou can view souceSep 27 19:48
schestowitz*sauce/sourceSep 27 19:49
yuhong_Yep.Sep 27 19:49
trmancoyesSep 27 19:49
trmancoyou are rightSep 27 19:49
twitter1they are paid for their work and won't leave -> schestowitz: They leave when they get boredSep 27 19:49
MinceRmore importantly, if the ops ignore the trolls, who will stop them from flooding the channel?Sep 27 19:49
MinceRany visitor will just see the floodSep 27 19:49
schestowitztwitter1: they are not paid trollsSep 27 19:49
schestowitzcj was pushed out for being a MicrosofterSep 27 19:49
twitter1how do you know which are paid and which are not?Sep 27 19:49
wallclimberif they aren't paid, why do they do it?Sep 27 19:49
schestowitzHe is still harassing me in TwitterSep 27 19:50
wallclimbersometimes their persistance goes beyong logic...Sep 27 19:50
twitter1ultimately, does it matter?Sep 27 19:50
schestowitzNot a day goes by without some stalking (he knows I never respond to him)Sep 27 19:50
twitter1why not just kick ban them ?Sep 27 19:50
*trmanco gives channel operator status to phIRCeSep 27 19:51
trmanco!kickban phIRCe 1Sep 27 19:51
*phIRCe sets ban on phIRCe.!*@*Sep 27 19:51
*phIRCe has kicked phIRCe from #boycottnovell (Don't take this personally!)Sep 27 19:51
*phIRCe (n=b0t@bl11-50-219.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 19:51
phIRCeHow dare you kick me!Sep 27 19:51
trmanco:|Sep 27 19:51
schestowitzHeheSep 27 19:51
yuhong_http://www.examiner.com/x-1449-Dallas-Libertarian-Examiner~y2009m9d2-Whole-Foods-boycott-or-buycottSep 27 19:51
MinceRthat banmask is brokenSep 27 19:51
phIRCeTitle: Dallas Libertarian Examiner  .::. Size~: 78.24 KBSep 27 19:51
schestowitzBots have no feelingsSep 27 19:51
MinceRthere's an extra .Sep 27 19:51
yuhong_Yep.Sep 27 19:51
trmancono it isn'tSep 27 19:51
MinceR+b phIRCe.!*@*Sep 27 19:51
trmancoah crapSep 27 19:51
MinceRthe . keeps that from matching any nick at allSep 27 19:51
trmancoI wonder what happenedSep 27 19:51
trmancothis was workingSep 27 19:52
*trmanco gives channel operator status to phIRCeSep 27 19:52
MinceRalso, banning by nick is useless in most casesSep 27 19:52
schestowitz!kickban phIRCe 1Sep 27 19:52
trmanco!unban phIRCe 1Sep 27 19:52
*phIRCe removes ban on phIRCe.!*@*Sep 27 19:52
trmanco:|Sep 27 19:52
yuhong_http://www.boycottwatch.org/misc/wholefoods2.htmSep 27 19:52
trmancoI need to check thisSep 27 19:52
schestowitzyuhong_: yes, I knowSep 27 19:52
trmanco!ban phIRCe 1Sep 27 19:52
schestowitzWhat about it?Sep 27 19:52
*phIRCe sets ban on phIRCe.!*@*Sep 27 19:52
trmanco!unban phIRCe 1Sep 27 19:52
*phIRCe removes ban on phIRCe.!*@*Sep 27 19:53
yuhong_http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/278448Sep 27 19:53
*trmanco removes channel operator status from phIRCeSep 27 19:53
phIRCeTitle: Whole Foods 'Buycott' Scheduled for Sept. 1 .::. Size~: 35.24 KBSep 27 19:53
yuhong_Yes, I know too.Sep 27 19:53
trmanco$this->SendCommand("MODE $chan +b $user.!*@*\r\n");Sep 27 19:54
trmancoI had this rightSep 27 19:54
trmancohave*Sep 27 19:54
twitter1hmmm, I misread your link, schestowitz.  read ekaia as ekiga :'(Sep 27 19:55
trmancostrangeSep 27 19:56
trmanco:phIRCe!n=b0t@bl11-50-219.dsl.telepac.pt MODE #boycottnovell +b phIRCe.!*@*Sep 27 19:56
schestowitzMyth of the blue-headed step children < http://blog.nixternal.com/2009.09.26/myth-of-the-blue-headed-step-children/z >. Not true based on my experience.Sep 27 19:56
phIRCeTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KBSep 27 19:56
trmanco./zSep 27 19:56
trmanco?Sep 27 19:56
*wallclimber has quit (Nick collision from services.)Sep 27 19:57
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 19:57
yuhong_Yep, it is one of many problems with old style PR that rely on controlling the message.Sep 27 19:57
MinceRtrmanco: remove the "." from "user."Sep 27 19:57
trmancoohSep 27 19:58
trmancothat '.'Sep 27 19:58
trmancoLOLSep 27 19:58
yuhong_http://industry.bnet.com/technology/1000664/seagates-ex-ceo-bill-watkins-too-blunt-for-his-own-good/Sep 27 19:58
phIRCeTitle: Seagate's Ex-CEO Bill Watkins: Too Blunt For His Own Good? | BNET Technology Blog | BNET .::. Size~: 67.5 KBSep 27 19:58
trmanco*** phIRCe removes the ban on phIRCe.!*@*. <- I thought it was this oneSep 27 19:58
schestowitzyuhong_: wgar are you gonna do about it?Sep 27 19:58
yuhong_Not sure, but it is interesting to think about this issue.Sep 27 19:59
yuhong_http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/30/magazines/fortune/obrienseagate.fortune/Sep 27 19:59
phIRCeTitle: A candid interview with Seagate's CEO - Nov. 30, 2006 .::. Size~: 47 KBSep 27 19:59
*wallclimber has quit (Nick collision from services.)Sep 27 19:59
schestowitzyuhong_: many things can somehow quality as "PR", but some people do it for a living and act nasty about itSep 27 19:59
schestowitzMicrosoft is releasing new spying toolsSep 27 20:00
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 20:00
schestowitzyuhong_: I have two Seagate drives, but I don't like the companySep 27 20:00
trmancoschestowitz: request a cloakSep 27 20:00
trmanco:-PSep 27 20:00
yuhong_phIRCe looks to be quite interesting BTW, as it shows the title and the size of the file.Sep 27 20:00
schestowitzThey package Microsoft's patent rubbish on//in their HDDs (NTFS)Sep 27 20:00
trmancoyuhong_: thanksSep 27 20:01
schestowitzWetern Digital even does /restriuctions/Sep 27 20:01
schestowitztrmanco: what would be the benefit?Sep 27 20:01
MinceRwhat restrictions?Sep 27 20:01
schestowitzNo shares over networkSep 27 20:01
MinceRstrangeSep 27 20:01
schestowitzYeahSep 27 20:01
MinceRhow do they implement that?Sep 27 20:01
trmancoschestowitz: that is if you want to control the botSep 27 20:01
schestowitzNo idea how they implement itSep 27 20:01
schestowitztrmanco: I don'tSep 27 20:02
MinceRi've reformatted my WDs to ext3 anyway :>Sep 27 20:02
schestowitzAnd I won't hide IP eitherSep 27 20:02
trmancoah okSep 27 20:02
schestowitzNo point to itSep 27 20:02
schestowitzMinceR: same hereSep 27 20:02
yuhong_And yep, I said that "this blog is about MS’s unethical PR practices, not general problems with old school broadcast style PR, which is a different matter. "Sep 27 20:02
MinceRcurrently i only trust WD and Hitachi HDDsSep 27 20:02
schestowitzAll drives except main partition (ext4)Sep 27 20:02
schestowitzHitachi failed on me in a laptopSep 27 20:03
schestowitzIBM used thoseSep 27 20:03
schestowitzLenovo maybe stil doesSep 27 20:03
yuhong_Yep, Deathstar.Sep 27 20:03
trmanco!quit phIRCeSep 27 20:03
*phIRCe has quit ("Exiting!")Sep 27 20:03
*phIRCe (n=b0t@bl11-50-219.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 20:03
*trmanco gives channel operator status to phIRCeSep 27 20:03
trmanco!kickban phIRCe 1Sep 27 20:03
*phIRCe sets ban on phIRCe!*@*Sep 27 20:03
*phIRCe has kicked phIRCe from #boycottnovell (Don't take this personally!)Sep 27 20:03
trmancohahSep 27 20:04
trmancothanks MinceRSep 27 20:04
*trmanco removes ban on phIRCe!*@*Sep 27 20:04
trmancotestSep 27 20:04
trmancogrrrSep 27 20:05
MinceRnpSep 27 20:05
yuhong_I personally dual-boot Windows and Linux and I found NTFS-3G to be quite handy.Sep 27 20:05
MinceRmy ThinkPad came with a Hitachi HDDSep 27 20:05
MinceRand afaik they used to be IBMSep 27 20:06
MinceR(and yes, Lenovo still uses them)Sep 27 20:06
yuhong_BTW, one of the oldest examples is Stallman itself.Sep 27 20:07
yuhong_"In January 1984 I quit my job at MIT and began writing GNU software. Leaving MIT was necessary so that MIT would not be able to interfere with distributing GNU as free software."Sep 27 20:07
*phIRCe (n=b0t@bl11-50-219.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 20:07
yuhong_"However, Professor Winston, then the head of the MIT AI Lab, kindly invited me to keep using the lab's facilities."Sep 27 20:07
MinceRthe partition i share between linux and winblows is ext3Sep 27 20:07
MinceR(via ext2ifs)Sep 27 20:08
trmanco!quit phIRCeSep 27 20:08
*phIRCe has quit (Client Quit)Sep 27 20:08
*phIRCe (n=b0t@bl11-50-219.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 20:08
trmancosorry guysSep 27 20:08
trmancoeverything should be stable nowSep 27 20:09
schestowitzyuhong_: yes, they offer support thereSep 27 20:10
MinceRwell, kde3 failed to compile on mint 7Sep 27 20:10
schestowitzOthers in MIT get similar supportSep 27 20:10
schestowitzGoogle had StanfordSep 27 20:10
*wallclimber has quit (Nick collision from services.)Sep 27 20:10
schestowitzPeople here offer me some level of backing tooSep 27 20:10
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 20:10
schestowitzIn the sense that I can hang aroundSep 27 20:10
*wallclimber is now known as Guest1177Sep 27 20:11
yuhong_And have you heard the phrase "pulling a Ratner".Sep 27 20:14
schestowitzLinux Audio Conversion Trick < http://vxjasonxv.livejournal.com/526692.html >Sep 27 20:15
phIRCeTitle: Jason's Little Corner of THE INTERNET! - Linux Audio Conversion Trick .::. Size~: 52.9 KBSep 27 20:15
schestowitzGuest1177 (Wallc): will cday come hanging around soon?Sep 27 20:15
schestowitzyuhong_: I saw this earlierSep 27 20:15
schestowitzDidn't get the referenceSep 27 20:15
schestowitzMy relative in Florida ia am RatnetSep 27 20:15
schestowitz*a RatnerSep 27 20:15
yuhong_http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2010949.stmSep 27 20:16
phIRCeTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 85.66 KBSep 27 20:16
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_RatnerSep 27 20:16
phIRCeTitle: Brett Ratner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 59.76 KBSep 27 20:16
yuhong_Nope.Sep 27 20:16
yuhong_http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2010949.stmSep 27 20:16
phIRCeTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 85.71 KBSep 27 20:16
yuhong_http://www.nolandgrab.org/archives/2007/04/lexicon_pulling.htmlSep 27 20:17
phIRCeTitle: No Land Grab: Lexicon: "Pulling" vs. "Doing" a Ratner .::. Size~: 7.01 KBSep 27 20:17
schestowitzThe First Geek Wedding At a LinuxFest  http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/26/1821218/The-First-Geek-Wedding-At-a-LinuxFestSep 27 20:17
phIRCeTitle: Slashdot Linux Story | The First Geek Wedding At a LinuxFest .::. Size~: 129.99 KBSep 27 20:17
yuhong_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doing_a_RatnerSep 27 20:17
phIRCeTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden .::. Size~: 0 KBSep 27 20:17
yuhong_Get it now?Sep 27 20:18
schestowitzYesSep 27 20:18
yuhong_I really mean "doing a Ratner"Sep 27 20:18
schestowitzhttp://www.ubuntugeek.com/eee-control-utility-for-controlling-eee-pc-hardware.htmlSep 27 20:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Be thankful they don't build cars like they used to http://is.gd/3JfZeSep 27 20:20
phIRCeTitle: Pics Aplenty: IIHS reveals before and after of Malibu/Bel Air crash &mdash; Autoblog .::. Size~: 113.76 KBSep 27 20:20
phIRCeTitle:   eee-control  Utility for controlling Eee PC hardware | Ubuntu Geek .::. Size~: 37.78 KBSep 27 20:20
yuhong_I wonder what would happen if a company publish a blog article showing the political opinion of all the senior execs, not just the CEO.Sep 27 20:21
schestowitzLike Mandriva?Sep 27 20:21
schestowitzhttp://balau82.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/ubuntu-live-cd-with-lvm-capability/Sep 27 20:22
yuhong_After all, the CEO of Whole Foods ended up offending many by expressing their political opinion.Sep 27 20:22
phIRCeTitle: Ubuntu Live CD with LVM capability « Balau .::. Size~: 34.69 KBSep 27 20:22
trmancowtfSep 27 20:22
trmancohow did it strike out the title?Sep 27 20:22
schestowitzhttp://www.lockergnome.com/theoracle/2009/09/25/opera-1010-%E2%80%93-another-beta-with-fixes-for-more-than-unite/Sep 27 20:23
phIRCeTitle:    Opera 10.10 – Another Beta, with Fixes for More Than Unite ~ Revelations From An Unwashed Brain .::. Size~: 71.84 KBSep 27 20:23
schestowitztrmanco: I wondered the sameSep 27 20:23
schestowitzIt's an odd symbolSep 27 20:23
schestowitzhttp://my.stargazer.at/2009/09/27/a-different-kind-of-suicide/Sep 27 20:25
phIRCeTitle: A different kind of suicide - StarBlog .::. Size~: 18.5 KBSep 27 20:25
yuhong_If anything, it might show just how redicilous boycotting a company based on the CEO's political opinion is.Sep 27 20:27
*yuhong_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009090216]")Sep 27 20:28
schestowitzNice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVzzF_ft7ucSep 27 20:29
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Cuteness 4.6 .::. Size~: 101.53 KBSep 27 20:29
schestowitzJeremy Allison does a Ballmer: http://danlynch.org/blog/2009/09/lad3/Sep 27 20:33
phIRCeTitle: LinuxCon Audio Diary 3 | Adventures In Open Source .::. Size~: 26.15 KBSep 27 20:33
trmancohttp://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/23/basic-flaw-reveals-source-code-to-3300-popular-websites/Sep 27 20:35
phIRCeTitle:   Basic Flaw Reveals Source Code to 3,300 Popular Websites  .::. Size~: 97.05 KBSep 27 20:35
trmancoSVN failSep 27 20:35
trmanconever liked SVNSep 27 20:36
MinceRi liked it when it was my first VCS :>Sep 27 20:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] SVN Basic Flaw Reveals Source Code to 3,300 Popular Websites: http://is.gd/3JhsFSep 27 20:37
trmancohehSep 27 20:37
phIRCeTitle:   Basic Flaw Reveals Source Code to 3,300 Popular Websites  .::. Size~: 97.05 KBSep 27 20:37
*maxriskfactor (n=manish@59.164.224.117) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 20:37
twitter1it is more that his opinion, it's company policy -> yuhong_: If anything, it might show just how redicilous boycotting a company based on the CEO's political opinion is.Sep 27 20:38
twitter1both unions and big food hate Whole Foods.  Those are both powerful and will seek to destroy the company via smears.Sep 27 20:39
twitter1Overall, I think the company is useful and brings value.Sep 27 20:39
twitter1I enjoyed working there but saw some bad directions in the increase of temporary workers.Sep 27 20:40
twitter1Whole Foods is also pinched by insurance companies, as is everyone.Sep 27 20:40
twitter1I would not boycott the place.Sep 27 20:41
*maxriskfactor has quit ("Leaving")Sep 27 20:42
twitter1In fact, I don't know of any other grocer that cares as much about food purity.  Their stand on GMOs, harmful ingredients and fair market support of a diversity of food companies are admirable and is key to their success.Sep 27 20:42
twitter1They have attracted their labor force by paying better than prevailing union wages.Sep 27 20:43
twitter1and they have shared the success via stock optionsSep 27 20:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] how trickle-down economics works http://bit.ly/1HU9LNSep 27 20:46
phIRCeTitle: The Best Inequality Graph « Consider the Evidence .::. Size~: 90.47 KBSep 27 20:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] 800 pilotos da TAP têm salário médio bruto de 8.600 euros: http://is.gd/3JiHRSep 27 20:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Laboratories Are Good Destination for #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/bulV1Sep 27 20:56
phIRCeTitle: Linux Training and the Use of Labs | Linux Training Classes and Courses .::. Size~: 23.53 KBSep 27 20:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Investor Realises #GNU #Linux is Likely Much Bigger in the Future http://bit.ly/ZJEwPSep 27 20:58
phIRCeTitle: InvestorGeeks  » Blog Archive   » Is Linux the New Threat? .::. Size~: 29.87 KBSep 27 20:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Still Ahead of #Mac OS X in Areas http://bit.ly/YZAX1Sep 27 21:00
phIRCeTitle: JJinuxLand: Linux: My Mouse Ate My Homework! .::. Size~: 101.05 KBSep 27 21:00
twitterhey wallclimber, why did you revert to nick Guest1177 ?Sep 27 21:00
MinceRprobably didn't identifySep 27 21:01
MinceRto nickservSep 27 21:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #XServer 1.8 Planning Has Begun http://bit.ly/zDJABSep 27 21:02
phIRCeTitle: [Phoronix] Proposed Process Changes For X Server 1.8 .::. Size~: 19.17 KBSep 27 21:02
twitterI like the trickle down graph, but the people at L graph show a big flaw in the 1% top income data.Sep 27 21:02
twitter1% is 3,000,000 peopleSep 27 21:02
twitteraveraging their income is not a good idea and hides the ballooning income of the top .5 and .1%Sep 27 21:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxFest Brings Together Men and Women http://bit.ly/noP6XSep 27 21:03
phIRCeTitle: Slashdot Linux Story | The First Geek Wedding At a LinuxFest .::. Size~: 128.73 KBSep 27 21:03
twitterit is doubtful that 3,000,000 people in the US make $1,000,000 per year.  They only appear to do so because people like Bill Gates make billions.Sep 27 21:04
twitterone person with a billion dollar income can bring the average of 1,000 people to a million, so we might find people in the top 1% making about as little as $100,000Sep 27 21:07
twitterThe graph creates the false impression of distribution.  Looking at the graph we imagine the top 1% are only about 10x larger earners than everyone else.  In reality, the top earners are beating them out by a three or four orders of magnitude.Sep 27 21:10
twitterThe distribution really is a big L shape.Sep 27 21:10
MinceRi think the tendency is more importantSep 27 21:10
twitterThe tendency is important, but the real picture of distribution is what counts.Sep 27 21:11
twitterall of us are on the bottom leg of a long flat pile of nothing.  a few dozen or hundred people like Bill Gates sit on top of wealth and power that are unimaginable and unjustifiable.Sep 27 21:12
MinceRand they don't even know what to do with itSep 27 21:12
twitterI think the cut of the US's top 1% has gone over 30% of all revenues.Sep 27 21:12
twitteroh, they know what to do with it.Sep 27 21:12
twitterThey have the world's biggest pleasure boats, private resorts everywhere, dozens of homes, private planes, etc, etc.Sep 27 21:13
*Xarver (n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 21:13
twitterFrisky young trophy wives.Sep 27 21:14
twitterand, as we have seen, in the case of Ballmer and Gates, they can be exceedingly petty and vindictive towards those who challenge them in any way.Sep 27 21:15
MinceRyes, they mostly just get more of the sameSep 27 21:16
MinceRlike i said, they don't even know what to do with itSep 27 21:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Qt Gets Fantastic New Features in 4.6, #KDE Turns to Lifestyle http://bit.ly/15J9Jp http://bit.ly/18KM6c #videoSep 27 21:19
phIRCeTitle: Cuteness 4.6 | Enrico Ros .::. Size~: 37.75 KBSep 27 21:19
phIRCeTitle: H. Skott on kde stuff: Howto integrate KDE into your life .::. Size~: 63.14 KBSep 27 21:19
MinceRi'm more interested in how to integrate kde3 into my mintSep 27 21:20
MinceRmaking the damn thing compile in the first placeSep 27 21:20
MinceRwhy are there no sane distros that, when making a _stable_ release, they actually make it out of _stable_ releases of packages?Sep 27 21:21
trmancohttp://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/09/25/an-honest-windows-7-review/Sep 27 21:24
phIRCeTitle: The Open Sourcerer  » An Honest Windows 7 Review .::. Size~: 41.1 KBSep 27 21:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PCLinuxOS 2009.2 Impresses Reviewer http://bit.ly/2WjbLQ #gnu #linuxSep 27 21:25
phIRCeTitle: IT Lure: Distro Hoppin`: PCLinuxOS 2009.2 .::. Size~: 76.39 KBSep 27 21:25
Xarvernice link trmancoSep 27 21:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The #Ubuntu Powerhouse Starts Thinking Business http://bit.ly/y2CPa http://bit.ly/13yTtR http://bit.ly/xxaTcSep 27 21:26
phIRCeTitle: Ubuntu business model- a misunderstood concept | GHABUNTU .::. Size~: 101.03 KBSep 27 21:26
phIRCeTitle: Canonical/Ubuntu CEO Mark Shuttleworth Visits Dell | WorksWithU .::. Size~: 49.21 KBSep 27 21:26
phIRCeTitle: OMG! UBUNTU!: Ubuntu Software Store Renamed .::. Size~: 128.71 KBSep 27 21:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Phones Diversity Celebrated http://bit.ly/12xDqaSep 27 21:33
phIRCeTitle: Operating Systems that power your mobile phones  3 .::. Size~: 55.87 KBSep 27 21:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] theora 1.1 is released – what you should know: http://is.gd/3JlKtSep 27 21:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Jolicloud: #Linux Good, Web Obsession ( #FogComputing ) bad http://bit.ly/2vZCjxSep 27 21:35
phIRCeTitle: theora 1.1 is released  what you should know at hacks.mozilla.org .::. Size~: 41.77 KBSep 27 21:35
trmancoLOLSep 27 21:35
trmancoMinceR: what is the ascii code to strikeout irc messages?Sep 27 21:36
MinceRi don't think any existsSep 27 21:36
trmanco:|Sep 27 21:36
MinceRbut the last time you mentioned strikeout i saw an inverted S in the messageSep 27 21:36
trmanco:OSep 27 21:36
MinceRso i suppose that's what irssi converted the offending character intoSep 27 21:36
MinceRi'll check if the log still has itSep 27 21:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Subnotebooks Based on #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 9.10 Looks Good, Work Properly http://bit.ly/jCbyq http://bit.ly/8chPXSep 27 21:37
phIRCeTitle: [Phoronix] Ubuntu 9.10 Netbook Remix Is Looking Great .::. Size~: 21.99 KBSep 27 21:37
phIRCeTitle: the dude abides: Ubuntu Netbook Remix Karmic .::. Size~: 92.74 KBSep 27 21:37
MinceRless says it's a ^S (Ctrl+S)Sep 27 21:37
trmancohttp://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2009/09/24/no-ribbon-planned-for-the-firefox-ui/Sep 27 21:38
phIRCeTitle: Alex Faaborg  -   » No Ribbon Planned for the Firefox UI .::. Size~: 43.51 KBSep 27 21:38
trmancohSep 27 21:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] VT #Schools Pressured to Move to #FreeSoftware http://bit.ly/1D7hj1Sep 27 21:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Qt 4.6 does the shiny http://bit.ly/15J9Jp (HT@schestowitz)Sep 27 21:43
phIRCeTitle: OSS push in VT Schools and Local Gov « DoctorMO's Blog .::. Size~: 19.75 KBSep 27 21:43
phIRCeTitle: Cuteness 4.6 | Enrico Ros .::. Size~: 38.5 KBSep 27 21:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux and #FreeSoftware Help End Copyright Infringement/Counterfeiting http://bit.ly/MKWo8Sep 27 21:44
phIRCeTitle:    GNU/Linux and FOSS versus Software Piracy  The ERACC Web Log .::. Size~: 85.07 KBSep 27 21:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE Programming Gets a Boost from Google Summer of Code http://bit.ly/zxIVGSep 27 21:46
phIRCeTitle: What I Did On My Summer Holiday | KDE.news .::. Size~: 36.63 KBSep 27 21:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #TexasInstruments Already Criticised for Hampering #Hackers http://bit.ly/3DnQMHSep 27 21:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @schestowitz: KDE Programming Gets a Boost from Google Summer of Code http://bit.ly/zxIVGSep 27 21:52
phIRCeTitle: Hey, TI, Leave Those Kids Alone / Fighting hobbyists with the DMCA | Privacy Digest .::. Size~: 33.85 KBSep 27 21:52
phIRCeTitle: What I Did On My Summer Holiday | KDE.news .::. Size~: 36.63 KBSep 27 21:52
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 27 21:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Verizon and AT&T Fight Against #NetNeutrality in Wireless http://bit.ly/154vsqSep 27 21:53
phIRCeTitle: Verizon, AT&T: Net neutrality not OK for wireless | Signal Strength - CNET News .::. Size~: 244.84 KBSep 27 21:53
*Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@68.238.49.173) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Appeals After Deliberately Breaking #Patent #Law http://bit.ly/cyLIw #intellectualmonopoliesSep 27 21:56
phIRCeTitle: As I4i-Microsoft Appeal Nears, Injunction, Damages At Stake - WSJ.com .::. Size~: 111.73 KBSep 27 21:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Scientist: #Software is Maths; #RichardStallman to Speak About #SoftwarePatents http://bit.ly/3LqmJpSep 27 21:57
phIRCeTitle: Universal kernel code to keep computers safe - tech - 28 August 2009 - New Scientist .::. Size~: 65.03 KBSep 27 21:57
tessierDid anyone else think that the law firm's defense of software patents posted to groklaw was rather weak?Sep 27 21:59
Diablo-D3of course it'll be weakSep 27 22:02
Diablo-D3they're illegal under US lawSep 27 22:02
Diablo-D3any lawyer knows thisSep 27 22:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another #Microsoft Vice President Quits http://bit.ly/13WbVzSep 27 22:04
phIRCeTitle:  Cisco taps Microsoft exec to head collaboration .::. Size~: 126.57 KBSep 27 22:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Accuses #Microsoft of Lying About Market Share http://bit.ly/7v7YeSep 27 22:06
phIRCeTitle: Lotus goes after Microsoft's 'ridiculous and fabricated' figures ( - Software ) .::. Size~: 30.94 KBSep 27 22:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Hooks up with Banksters to Control News http://bit.ly/KB0ICSep 27 22:07
phIRCeTitle: Gulfnews: Citigroup, Microsoft to take on finance website .::. Size~: 73.33 KBSep 27 22:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #WindowsMobile Has #KillSwitch http://bit.ly/1vPqeqSep 27 22:20
phIRCeTitle: Windows Marketplace for Mobile kill switch details clarified - Ars Technica .::. Size~: 44.34 KBSep 27 22:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Runs #Vista7 #AstroTurf in Twitter, Releases #AstroTurfing Software http://bit.ly/1nKWw http://www.clickz.com/3635086Sep 27 22:21
phIRCeTitle: Windows 7 Freebies For Twitter Fans -- InformationWeek .::. Size~: 88.28 KBSep 27 22:21
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Tests Social Media Monitoring Product - ClickZ .::. Size~: 32.11 KBSep 27 22:21
tessierDogrobot is injected into PCs using vulnerabilities such as browser holes. It also uses ARP cache poisoning attacks to redirect other Windows PCs in a local network to specially crafted web pages and infect them this way.Sep 27 22:24
tessierWow.Sep 27 22:24
trmancohttp://www.techworld.com.au/article/319861/mit_creating_microchip_could_restore_vision?fp=2&fpid=1&rid=1Sep 27 22:24
phIRCeTitle: MIT creating microchip that could restore vision - microchip, MIT, vision, wireless - Techworld .::. Size~: 58.71 KBSep 27 22:24
trmancotwitter is b0rkedSep 27 22:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] IE8 runs 10 times faster with Google plug-in: http://is.gd/3JpuMSep 27 22:26
phIRCeTitle: IE8 runs 10 times faster with Google plug-in - Google, Google Chrome, ie8, Microsoft - Techworld .::. Size~: 57.59 KBSep 27 22:26
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft's #Vista7 Ads Gets Slammed Royally http://zikkir.com/content/359 http://bit.ly/MAaEG http://bit.ly/W2btxSep 27 22:30
phIRCeTitle: This Microsoft Windows 7 launch video is, if possible, worse than that musical one «  Industry News .::. Size~: 11.52 KBSep 27 22:30
phIRCeTitle: The worst Microsoft promo videos ever! | Crave - CNET .::. Size~: 184.01 KBSep 27 22:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another #Microsoft Product Dies: Dynamics Mobile http://bit.ly/21uIJk http://bit.ly/3slHWVSep 27 22:31
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Kills Dynamics Mobile - PC World .::. Size~: 64.66 KBSep 27 22:31
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft kills Dynamics Mobile .::. Size~: 58 KBSep 27 22:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows #Vista Still Open to Hijackers http://bit.ly/ThUeESep 27 22:34
phIRCeTitle: Bugs and Fixes: File-Sharing Vulnerability Hits Vista  - PC World .::. Size~: 69.91 KBSep 27 22:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Xbox360 Business is Collapsing (Sales Fall, Other Issues Appear) http://www.talkxbox.com/article3338.html http://bit.ly/QT8Pn http:// ...Sep 27 22:36
phIRCeTitle: Betheseda Thinks Microsoft Screwed Up With Halo 3: ODST Marketing Strategy - News at TalkXbox .::. Size~: 16.4 KBSep 27 22:36
phIRCeTitle: Market Report -- Short Stories (MSFT): Briefing.com Business News - MSN Money .::. Size~: 23.47 KBSep 27 22:36
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tessierDogrobot is injected into PCs using vulnerabilities such as browser holes. It also uses ARP cache poisoning attacks to redirect other Windows PCs in a local network to specially crafted web pages and infect them this way.Sep 27 23:05
tessierWow. That's hard core.Sep 27 23:05
tessierSo one infected machine on the network can easily infect everyone else by being a man in the middle web proxy.Sep 27 23:06
schestowitzAny article about it?Sep 27 23:13
*schestowitz watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c76lYVY4cao&feature=PlayList&p=C2A021D1A1CBD633&index=2Sep 27 23:13
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Beyond Belief '06 - Neil deGrasse Tyson and Ramachandran .::. Size~: 156.75 KBSep 27 23:13
*seller_liar (i=c92b23a6@gateway/web/freenode/x-duhpxpypqhuuukyd) has joined #boycottnovellSep 27 23:14
seller_liarschestowitz: have you You watched the movie zeitgeist?Sep 27 23:16
Diablo-D3did someone say neil degrasse?Sep 27 23:18
Diablo-D3woah, neil and godSep 27 23:18
Diablo-D3this should be interestingSep 27 23:19
seller_liarI recommend to all  guys to watch zeitgeistSep 27 23:24
Diablo-D3seller_liar: no.Sep 27 23:24
Diablo-D3No one should watch that horrid piece of shitSep 27 23:24
seller_liarwhy?Sep 27 23:24
Diablo-D3Its the worst setup of a strawman argument I've ever seenSep 27 23:24
Diablo-D3I dont care if its true or not, its not helping the case any.Sep 27 23:24
seller_liarbut there`s a lot of evidenceSep 27 23:24
Diablo-D3it doesnt matter if there is evidenceSep 27 23:25
Diablo-D3it doesnt present it in any acceptable mannerSep 27 23:25
seller_liarit helps to understand the actual economics of americaSep 27 23:25
Diablo-D3the actual economics of america are very easy to understandSep 27 23:25
Diablo-D3you dont need a bunch of whackos trying to make it seem eviler than it really isSep 27 23:25
tessierDiablo-D3: Economics are definitely not easy to understand.Sep 27 23:26
seller_liarand how usa tries to destroy everything for moneySep 27 23:26
tessierThe whole system is hugely complicated.Sep 27 23:26
Diablo-D3tessier: not at all.Sep 27 23:26
Diablo-D3its very large, but very well understoodSep 27 23:26
tessierIt is not at all well understood.Sep 27 23:26
Diablo-D3actually, it isSep 27 23:26
Diablo-D3its largely a myth that it isntSep 27 23:26
tessieractually, it isn'tSep 27 23:26
tessierYour turnSep 27 23:26
tessiernuh uhSep 27 23:26
tessieryah huhSep 27 23:27
tessiernuh uhSep 27 23:27
tessieryah huhSep 27 23:27
Diablo-D3which one of us makes a lot of money via the economy? hint: its me.Sep 27 23:27
seller_liarUsa calls everything of `terrorism` ,but the fact is interest for moneySep 27 23:28
Diablo-D3the US uses a fiat currency.... its only worth as much as what everyone in the world thinks it is worthSep 27 23:28
Diablo-D3its a representation of what people believe the actual economic output of the US isSep 27 23:29
tessierWhy do economic conspiracy theorists always run to the fiat currency thing?Sep 27 23:29
Diablo-D3zeitgeist likes to claim that, basically, the representation is based on lies, which is falseSep 27 23:29
Diablo-D3in reality, its based on an abstractionSep 27 23:29
Diablo-D3tessier: because it _is_ a fiat currencySep 27 23:30
Diablo-D3it is not backed by hard assetsSep 27 23:30
Diablo-D3its backed by economic outputSep 27 23:30
tessierIndeed, it is. But what has that got to do with anything?Sep 27 23:30
Diablo-D3because this is the cornerstone of zeitgiest's argumentSep 27 23:30
Diablo-D3that there has been some giant fraud perpetrated against the worldSep 27 23:31
tessierIt isn't just the US Government who says what it is worth. It is every single person who accepts the dollar as a form of payment that says what it is worth.Sep 27 23:31
Diablo-D3they're trying to insert evil into an argument that has noneSep 27 23:31
Diablo-D3tessier: I already said thatSep 27 23:31
tessierI have spent dollars in more countries than I can count. Everyone takes them.Sep 27 23:31
tessierEven the black market in Vietnam prefers dollars.Sep 27 23:31
Diablo-D3every single last person on the planet controls what the USD is worthSep 27 23:31
Diablo-D3its based on what people think america is actually worth at the momentSep 27 23:31
tessierWith every single person on the planet involved in the US economy doesn't that make things pretty complicated?Sep 27 23:32
Diablo-D3but heres the kicker: its based on what people _think_Sep 27 23:32
Diablo-D3tessier: see above.Sep 27 23:32
Diablo-D3the economy is well understood because its underlined by thatSep 27 23:32
tessierThe price of gold is based on what people think also.Sep 27 23:32
Diablo-D3its whatever people thinkSep 27 23:32
Diablo-D3nope, the price of gold is based on mathSep 27 23:32
tessierI can go bid any price I want on gold.Sep 27 23:32
tessierThe price of gold is based on what is currently being offerednSep 27 23:32
Diablo-D3there is a very fixed amount of monetary gold in the worldSep 27 23:32
schestowitzseller_liar: yesSep 27 23:33
seller_liarmaybe the movie is not perfect in economical aspect,butSep 27 23:33
Diablo-D3what changes is not the value of the gold but the actual price in your current currency of choiceSep 27 23:33
seller_liarit tells a lot of `truths`Sep 27 23:33
Diablo-D3ie, if I hold an ounce of gold in my hand, its still an ounce of gold ten years from nowSep 27 23:33
seller_liarcompanies control the world and the warsSep 27 23:33
Diablo-D3seller_liar: which really isnt true eitherSep 27 23:33
cubezzzDiablo-D3, gold standard went away a long time ago :)Sep 27 23:33
Diablo-D3there are many lies people tell themselves so they can keep livingSep 27 23:33
seller_liarchristianism is based in egypcian religionSep 27 23:34
Diablo-D3cubezzz: we really never had the gold standardSep 27 23:34
schestowitzseller_liar: there is a better movieSep 27 23:34
schestowitzHold ob.Sep 27 23:34
seller_liarschestowitz: tell meSep 27 23:34
Diablo-D3cubezzz: the USD has been disconnected from gold long before we officially quit the gold standardSep 27 23:34
cubezzzwater is more important than gold, way moreSep 27 23:34
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8Sep 27 23:34
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Money As Debt (1 of 5) .::. Size~: 148.23 KBSep 27 23:34
Diablo-D3cubezzz: however, the standard is still there: the world banks have a specified amount of gold in the monetary systemSep 27 23:34
Diablo-D3cubezzz: it is strictly controlled and it grows at a very low fixed rateSep 27 23:35
cubezzzschestowitz was talking about the utility of gold not long agoSep 27 23:35
Diablo-D3I can have an ounce of gold in my hand and I know exactly what its worth in 100 years in comparison to gold.Sep 27 23:35
cubezzzwhat did an ounce of gold cost 100 years ago?Sep 27 23:35
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, we didSep 27 23:35
Diablo-D3I also know in 100 years that if I sell it at spot price, I got what it will be worthSep 27 23:35
Diablo-D3and if I bought it at spot price 100 years ago, I paid it what it is worthSep 27 23:36
schestowitzWe should have baks stock polutonium instead ;-)Sep 27 23:36
tessierDiablo-D3: What good is gold by itself? You can't eat it. You always have to compare it to something else.Sep 27 23:36
Diablo-D3tessier: because we defined it as money.Sep 27 23:36
cubezzzjewelry I guessSep 27 23:36
tessierYou can't eat money.Sep 27 23:36
Diablo-D3it's intrinsic use is to be moneySep 27 23:36
cubezzzit does have other uses thoughSep 27 23:36
tessierHow many sandwiches will it buy you in 100 years vs now?Sep 27 23:36
Diablo-D3cubezzz: not monetary goldSep 27 23:36
tessierThat is what matters.Sep 27 23:36
schestowitzBetter uranium in the bank cellars than in warheads and arsenalsSep 27 23:37
Diablo-D3tessier: thats the basis of a fiat currencySep 27 23:37
tessiermonetary gold is just gold held by a bank. It is still gold.Sep 27 23:37
seller_liargold gives value to moneySep 27 23:37
tessierschestowitz: Indeed.Sep 27 23:37
seller_liarwithout money standart money does not have a concrete valueSep 27 23:37
tessierschestowitz: If only we could convince the whole world of that and verify for sure that nobody is cheating...Sep 27 23:37
Diablo-D3and no, monetary gold is gold that has been defined specifically as moneySep 27 23:37
seller_liarthis is very bad thingSep 27 23:37
Diablo-D3seller_liar: wrongSep 27 23:37
Diablo-D3seller_liar: the USD is based on the belief of what the economic output of the US isSep 27 23:37
Diablo-D3seller_liar: its based on a much more modern standard: people.Sep 27 23:38
schestowitzPatents...Sep 27 23:38
schestowitzIntellectual 'property'Sep 27 23:38
tessierDiablo-D3: But any bank can melt down your mom's jewelry and declare it as monetary gold.Sep 27 23:38
Diablo-D3why do you think 9/11 caused a serious economic problem? not because two buildings and 3000 people are worth anythingSep 27 23:38
schestowitz"You ows me an idea..."Sep 27 23:38
schestowitz"Or... give me all your minerals"Sep 27 23:38
Diablo-D3tessier: yes, if they file the proper paper workSep 27 23:38
seller_liarDiablo-D3: I think it`s not goodSep 27 23:38
seller_liarbecause people values are abstract valuesSep 27 23:38
Diablo-D3seller_liar: its actually very good, but people are afraid of other peopleSep 27 23:38
seller_liargold value is concrete valueSep 27 23:39
seller_liarfor example , patents have valueSep 27 23:39
cubezzzthe price of gold has been pretty constant... checking thoughSep 27 23:39
seller_liarbut for me , patents does not haveSep 27 23:39
Diablo-D3cubezzz: the value of gold has been constantSep 27 23:39
tessiercubezzz: huh? Pretty constant?Sep 27 23:39
Diablo-D3cubezzz: the _price_ of gold hasnt because the value of money isntSep 27 23:39
cubezzzyes, for 400 yearsSep 27 23:39
tessiervalue is always in terms of something elseSep 27 23:39
Diablo-D3see, if the price of gold goes up its not because gold is worth more... its because currency is worth less.Sep 27 23:39
cubezzzonly world war I and depression made it go way upSep 27 23:40
tessierDiablo-D3: Not necessarily.Sep 27 23:40
Diablo-D3the gold standard is designed to grow extremely slowly up to the point it isnt really growing.Sep 27 23:40
Diablo-D3tessier: nope, exactly.Sep 27 23:40
cubezzzhttp://www.alef.com/oldgold.pdfSep 27 23:40
Diablo-D3they do not remove gold from the system, they only extremely slowly add to itSep 27 23:40
Diablo-D3its rather constantSep 27 23:40
Diablo-D3this is a scheme that is very very oldSep 27 23:40
Diablo-D3if you really want to point out "evil conspiracies", go look at that oneSep 27 23:41
Diablo-D3the system runs itself, and its beyond the reach of any government or reach "evil baby eating" groupSep 27 23:41
Diablo-D3all banks participate in it in one way or anotherSep 27 23:41
Diablo-D3I can't go make monetary gold myself, and only a few governments canSep 27 23:42
Diablo-D3and one or two banksSep 27 23:42
Diablo-D3a coin or bar thats not from an accepted mint wont be accepted by people who deal in monetary goldSep 27 23:42
cubezzzsurely any country can make monetary gold?Sep 27 23:42
Diablo-D3cubezzz: nopeSep 27 23:42
Diablo-D3if I was buying coins and someone had a coin from, say, argentinaSep 27 23:43
Diablo-D3I wouldnt buy itSep 27 23:43
Diablo-D3it has no monetary value because I cant resell itSep 27 23:43
cubezzzEngland must have had gold coinsSep 27 23:43
cubezzzI'm sure Canada did tooSep 27 23:43
Diablo-D3now, if it was, say, a chinese panda, or an australian kangaroo, or a US eagle, or a canadan whatever they haveSep 27 23:43
Diablo-D3then they're fineSep 27 23:43
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Diablo-D3I trust the coin of what it says it has in itSep 27 23:44
Diablo-D3bars are a little different, there are a couple private mints that arent governmental doing thoseSep 27 23:44
Diablo-D3as long as they have their assay cards proving whats in them, I'd accept them tooSep 27 23:45
cubezzzwell of course there is counterfeitingSep 27 23:45
Diablo-D3cubezzz: yes, but Im not talking about thatSep 27 23:45
Diablo-D3Im talking about the original mint being dicksSep 27 23:45
Diablo-D3third party counterfeiting is not a big issueSep 27 23:46
Diablo-D3its very rare and very hardSep 27 23:46
Diablo-D3I can buy a book that tells me the specific weights of almost any coin ever minted in the past 100 years or whateverSep 27 23:46
Diablo-D3anything Im ever likely to come acrossSep 27 23:46
Diablo-D3the problem is coming across things that wont appear in booksSep 27 23:47
Diablo-D3they're problematicSep 27 23:47
*cubezzz nodsSep 27 23:47
Diablo-D3so I wont take themSep 27 23:47
cubezzzhuge spike in the cost of gold in the early 80's:Sep 27 23:48
cubezzzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_price.pngSep 27 23:48
phIRCeTitle: Not a web page! Aborting... .::. Size~: Too big!Sep 27 23:48
Diablo-D3cubezzz: except that isnt the value of gold spikingSep 27 23:48
Diablo-D3the value of gold would be a very shallow incline on that graphSep 27 23:49
cubezzzit seems like a panicSep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3cubezzz: its a human thingSep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3this is why I cant _predict_ the economy even though I understand itSep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3people are illogicalSep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3its like plugging a random number generator into a rather nice and smooth systemSep 27 23:49
cubezzzyou still buy stocks though right?Sep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3cubezzz: not atmSep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3I needed to use my real money elsewhereSep 27 23:49
Diablo-D3I'm still doing it on paper thoughSep 27 23:50
Diablo-D3I'm getting much better at it thoughSep 27 23:50
vcentnow is the time to buy.Sep 27 23:50
Diablo-D3vcent: I said this 6-9 months ago.Sep 27 23:50
Diablo-D3like, I said buy SIRI when it was 8 centsSep 27 23:50
Diablo-D3its in the upper 60s nowSep 27 23:50
vcent.yes, thats right, ti's become too lateSep 27 23:50
cubezzzit's too late, yeahSep 27 23:51
Diablo-D3its too late to ride the spike, yeahSep 27 23:51
Diablo-D3its never too late to buy and holdSep 27 23:51
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cubezzzI must check Canonical, if they have a stock, I think they doSep 27 23:52
Diablo-D3I dont think they doSep 27 23:52
cubezzzhmmmSep 27 23:52
vcentno they dontSep 27 23:52
Diablo-D3btw, you know whats ironic?Sep 27 23:52
cubezzzahaSep 27 23:52
Diablo-D3microsoft, by the numbers, is worth buyingSep 27 23:52
vcentyes, I't P/E is much better than some NasdacSep 27 23:53
cubezzzso let's see how Novell is doing :)Sep 27 23:53
Diablo-D3I look at things other than p/eSep 27 23:53
Diablo-D3but yeah, the p/e has officially crossed into LOLCHEAPSep 27 23:53
*twitter1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 27 23:54
Diablo-D3novell is novl iircSep 27 23:54
cubezzzthe stock's been flat for a long time thoughSep 27 23:54
Diablo-D3I dont like novlSep 27 23:54
cubezzz4.63Sep 27 23:54
vcentP/E is roughtly the number of years it will take to recoup your investment High PE is bad.Sep 27 23:54
cubezzzcheap cheap :)Sep 27 23:54
Diablo-D3p/e is way too high, RoE 5yr is way too lowSep 27 23:55
Diablo-D3vcent: and no, its closer to number of years / 5Sep 27 23:55
cubezzzyeah and I kind of doubt there's any Novell stockholders in hereSep 27 23:56
Diablo-D3well, on the flip sideSep 27 23:56
Diablo-D3redhat sucks tooSep 27 23:56
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Diablo-D3tech stocks always have this high p/e problemSep 27 23:56
cubezzzDiablo-D3, I made $$$ with RedhatSep 27 23:56
cubezzzbought in, sold then bought in againSep 27 23:57
Diablo-D3as it stands now, I dont like itSep 27 23:59

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