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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: November 23rd, 2009

tessierNo more Windows refund? WTF?Nov 23 00:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #InternetExplorer Not Only Vulnerable But Also Under Attack http://ping.fm/ufhnENov 23 00:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: IT PRO: Blogs: Davey Winder:   IE 6 and 7 hit by hack attack code .::. Size~: 92.22 KBNov 23 00:09
schestowitztessier: no, Slashdot spinNov 23 00:13
schestowitzI got mail about itNov 23 00:13
tessierI saw something to that effect in the comments but it wasn't quite clear.Nov 23 00:14
schestowitzMaybe submitted by a Microsoft PR rep (the OP)Nov 23 00:14
tessierWhy would they do that? It would seem to make them look bad.Nov 23 00:15
schestowitzThat's what a friend told meNov 23 00:18
schestowitzMaybe to deter people looking for discounts/refundsNov 23 00:18
cubezzzbuy blank or buildNov 23 00:20
cubezzzdon't buy windows boxes Nov 23 00:20
tessiercubezzz: Ideally, yes. But it is hard to get the hardware you want without windows on it often.Nov 23 00:24
cubezzzvote with your wallet :)Nov 23 00:24
tessierThinkpad is the best shipping Linux laptop at the moment that I can find. At least until the new ARM based stuff comes along. Not sure I can get a Thinkpad without Windows.Nov 23 00:25
tessier"Lenovo recommends Windows 7"Nov 23 00:26
cubezzzyes, that's the usual situationNov 23 00:26
cubezzzcouldn't you just ask the manufacturer to sell you a blank laptop?Nov 23 00:26
tessiercubezzz: Are you new to the whole pre-load Windows situation?Nov 23 00:28
cubezzzno of course notNov 23 00:28
tessierNo, you can't. People have tried. They say no. Their agreement with Microsoft often precludes it and where it doesn't they don't want to throw a kink into their fulfillment process with such expensive exceptions.Nov 23 00:28
*ender2070_ (n=ender207@bas5-hamilton14-1279279367.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellNov 23 00:29
tessierUsually the hassle of a "Windows refund" per the EULA is your only choice.Nov 23 00:29
cubezzzhttp://thelinuxlaptop.comNov 23 00:31
ender2070_nice goblinNov 23 00:32
ender2070_saw your pingbackNov 23 00:32
cubezzzDell will sell you a linux laptop or freedos laptopNov 23 00:38
ender2070_thats where I got my xps m1330Nov 23 00:47
ender2070_w/ ubuntu 8.04Nov 23 00:48
ender2070_i dont like ubuntu anymore tho, fedora ftwNov 23 00:48
cubezzzwell I'm just thinking of ways to avoid the Microsoft taxNov 23 00:55
cubezzzyou can always delete Ubuntu and put whatever on thereNov 23 00:55
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13zCc9JW_wINov 23 00:57
cubezzztch, they changed youtube againNov 23 01:14
cubezzzbtw what does the military use for operating systems?Nov 23 01:22
schestowitzOK, let's go :-) posting marathonNov 23 01:22
schestowitzcubezzz: Red HatNov 23 01:22
schestowitzGradually moreNov 23 01:22
cubezzzor NSA for that matter :)Nov 23 01:23
cubezzzof course NSA might actually have the windows source codeNov 23 01:23
ender2070_cubezzz  - my dell came without the ms taxNov 23 01:33
ender2070_cubezzz  - they dont appear to have ubuntu systems on their canadian site anymore howeverNov 23 01:33
cubezzzhttp://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9141105/NSA_helped_with_Windows_7_developmentNov 23 01:33
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  NSA helped with Windows 7 development .::. Size~: 138.43 KBNov 23 01:33
tessier0/join #pythonNov 23 01:37
ender2070_yeah and msft is trying to say there aren't backdoorsNov 23 01:38
schestowitzI found that funnyNov 23 02:09
schestowitzHere is whyNov 23 02:09
schestowitzMan A: B came to my houseNov 23 02:09
schestowitzMan C: Nice.Nov 23 02:09
schestowitzMan A: I didn't sleep with BNov 23 02:09
schestowitzMan C: Huh? Who said you did. Why would you say that?Nov 23 02:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft #Windows Advertising Goes Too Far, Parents Television Council Complains http://ping.fm/14gNWNov 23 02:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Windows Advertising Goes Too Far, Parents Television Council Complains | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 110.33 KBNov 23 02:12
schestowitzMore importantly, it shows the people have begun viewing their secret service correctly and appropriately (as an enemy)Nov 23 02:13
schestowitzThey don't think as the NSA as their defended; rather, they view it as Bush's uninvited intruderNov 23 02:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Zero-Day Followed by #InternetExplorer 7 Zero-Day http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/22/internet-explorer-7-0day/Nov 23 03:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Vista 7 Zero-Day Followed by Internet Explorer 7 Zero-Day | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 109.1 KBNov 23 03:00
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] #thoughtful research roadblocks to free society http://tinyurl.com/ybe2tns (91 M) http://tinyurl.com/yatdb48Nov 23 03:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting audio/ogg type .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 03:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.presentation type .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 03:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Can Only Wish it Was as Popular as #Linux (on Phones) http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/22/rapid-decline-of-windows-mobile/Nov 23 03:31
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Can Only Wish it Was as Popular as Linux (on Phones) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 105.67 KBNov 23 03:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] w3c validator is sort of broken at the moment. All pages return errors.Nov 23 03:35
sebsebsebschestowitz: Do they, oh dearNov 23 03:58
Omar87schestowitz: hi, r u there?Nov 23 04:11
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phIRCe-BNcTitle: Blogs | Quassel IRC .::. Size~: 26.68 KBNov 23 04:11
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Swaps Data with (and Maybe Pays) #Nielsen http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/22/nielsen-conflict-of-interests/Nov 23 04:24
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Swaps Data with (and Maybe Pays) Nielsen, Which Compares Microsoft to Rivals | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 110.7 KBNov 23 04:24
*MikeyC has quit ("Page closed")Nov 23 04:26
ender2070_lol his irc client exit msg triggers your botNov 23 04:34
schestowitzWhose?Nov 23 04:39
schestowitzMike's?Nov 23 04:39
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzNov 23 04:40
*schestowitz has kicked szaze from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Nov 23 04:40
schestowitzMutex the perp ban-evadingNov 23 04:40
schestowitzgnNov 23 04:40
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to ender2070_Nov 23 04:40
DaemonFCHulu is running Intel ads nowNov 23 04:42
ender2070_I was refering to omarNov 23 04:48
ender2070_Does Mutex have some sort of bot that does all that?Nov 23 04:49
DaemonFChmmm, Fort Wayne needs a better "adult services" section on CraigslistNov 23 04:57
DaemonFCthere's one "male escort" listed there and he's about 40 years old and 300 poundsNov 23 04:58
DaemonFCif he's a male escort, I'm a freaking supermodelNov 23 04:58
ender2070_1) why are you looking up male escortsNov 23 04:58
DaemonFCcause I canNov 23 04:58
ender2070_2) Perhaps, Fort Wayne sucksNov 23 04:58
DaemonFCYeah, but the town I'm in sucks worseNov 23 04:59
DaemonFC3) I would sell my soul to get out of this town and stateNov 23 04:59
DaemonFCIndiana, famous for NASCAR and meth labsNov 23 05:00
DaemonFCwonder if the two are related...Nov 23 05:00
DaemonFCit's like there's no jobs and so to finance their alcoholism, they all started selling methNov 23 05:01
DaemonFCor becoming 40 year old 300 pound male prostitutes I supposeNov 23 05:03
DaemonFChttp://popup.lala.com/popup/360569458405683108Nov 23 05:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Lala Song Player - The Worst Day Since Yesterday by Flogging Molly .::. Size~: 22.87 KBNov 23 05:04
ender2070_lolNov 23 05:09
ender2070_as for huluNov 23 05:09
ender2070_why does intel need to advertiseNov 23 05:09
DaemonFCWho knows?Nov 23 05:11
DaemonFC99% of all processor sales are either theirs or make them license moneyNov 23 05:12
ender2070_amd is in it for the money tooNov 23 05:14
ender2070_they backed off on their anti trust suit against intel for settlement moneyNov 23 05:14
DaemonFCyeahNov 23 05:16
DaemonFCit's all they wanted anywayNov 23 05:16
DaemonFC$1.25 billion isn't a bad payoff for a bluffNov 23 05:16
ender2070_yupNov 23 05:16
ender2070_and intel is going to continue ripping ppl offNov 23 05:16
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ender2070_had nothing to do with us buyersNov 23 05:17
ender2070_i use intel right now but i wouldnt if it werent at such insane pricesNov 23 05:17
DaemonFCthe PC platform is being killed by a combination of Microsoft and video game publishersNov 23 05:18
ender2070_my q6600 was $200 when they were brand newNov 23 05:18
ender2070_and my i7 920 I got for $160 w/ vista and windows 7Nov 23 05:18
ender2070_basicly two free os'sNov 23 05:18
DaemonFCmy Phenom II X4 945 retails for about that muchNov 23 05:18
Diablo-D3and amd is still cheaperNov 23 05:18
ender2070_canadian pricesNov 23 05:19
DaemonFCohNov 23 05:19
ender2070_so add like $20-30Nov 23 05:19
ender2070_err subtractNov 23 05:19
DaemonFCender2070: The US dollar has had the shit beaten out of it so hard that we're just barely ahead of Canadian money nowNov 23 05:19
DaemonFCso you can figure the exchange rate is maybe within 5% of each other right now in our favorNov 23 05:20
ender2070_at one point we were beating youNov 23 05:20
DaemonFCthe CAD must have had it rough too, cause it was ahead of ours for several monthsNov 23 05:20
ender2070_it wasnt for that longNov 23 05:20
ender2070_your recession caused a mini one hereNov 23 05:21
ender2070_we're out of it alreadyNov 23 05:21
DaemonFCender2070_: I remember when I went to Canada, I had my US dollars converted, because even though ours is accepted there, the shops did a 1:1 conversionNov 23 05:22
ender2070_yesNov 23 05:22
ender2070_correctNov 23 05:22
DaemonFCso if something cost $10 CAD then you'd be paying $10 USD for something that was only worth like $8 USDNov 23 05:22
ender2070_your money is worth more than ours, we'll do 1:1 no problemNov 23 05:22
DaemonFCso you'd be paying about 20% moreNov 23 05:22
ender2070_yeahNov 23 05:23
ender2070_but you're saving $2 not having to burn gas to the bank / currency converterNov 23 05:23
ender2070_at the same timeNov 23 05:23
DaemonFCnot reallyNov 23 05:23
DaemonFCnot when you spend several hundred dollarsNov 23 05:23
DaemonFCit's worth it to get it converted thenNov 23 05:23
ender2070_if i went to the US, I world be forced to convert my currency overNov 23 05:23
DaemonFCyepNov 23 05:24
ender2070_i wouldnt have that second optionNov 23 05:24
DaemonFCyou may slip a few Canadian pennies throughNov 23 05:24
DaemonFCsneaky bastards :PNov 23 05:24
ender2070_we got a few of yoursNov 23 05:24
DaemonFCalways trying to inflate our economy with Canadian penniesNov 23 05:24
DaemonFCdamn them :DNov 23 05:24
ender2070_technically speaking, i think those stores are breaking the law by accepting foreign currencyNov 23 05:24
DaemonFCit's a plotNov 23 05:24
DaemonFCperhapsNov 23 05:25
DaemonFCwould you turn down a 20% profit increase over a law that's unenforced?Nov 23 05:25
ender2070_we're only supposed to accept "legal tender"Nov 23 05:25
DaemonFCof course, when I went there, it was in the 90sNov 23 05:26
DaemonFCand you didn't need a passportNov 23 05:26
ender2070_the stores that accept us dollars probably build it up and convert it themselvesNov 23 05:26
ender2070_maybe even doing 1:1 conversion with bills in their walletsNov 23 05:26
ender2070_it would be way too hard to trackNov 23 05:26
ender2070_you didnt need a passport till this summerNov 23 05:26
ender2070_blame Al QuedaNov 23 05:26
DaemonFCthat ought to stop those pesky seniors from trying to get affordable medicationNov 23 05:27
ender2070_lolNov 23 05:27
DaemonFCthey can pay $200 a bottle like everyone elseNov 23 05:27
DaemonFCB-)Nov 23 05:27
DaemonFCMedicare part D is a way to steal from people and give it to drug companiesNov 23 05:27
DaemonFCcause it still basically doesn't cover genericsNov 23 05:28
ender2070_??Nov 23 05:28
DaemonFCand the coverage on brand name drugs is a jokeNov 23 05:28
ender2070_they cover specific "brands" with health care?Nov 23 05:28
ender2070_thats crazyNov 23 05:28
DaemonFCthe co-pay for generics on most Part D plans is $7, but most generics cost $4 Nov 23 05:28
DaemonFCso you pay it allNov 23 05:28
DaemonFCThe cost for one of my meds is $150 retail, when I go on Medicare that drops to $40Nov 23 05:29
DaemonFCbut I'm going to have to pay about $30 just for the Part D plan each monthNov 23 05:29
ender2070_my doctor writes me a prescription for whatever, and i get it filled by any pharmacy usually by their in-store genericsNov 23 05:29
DaemonFCender2070_: I talked to my doctor about thisNov 23 05:30
DaemonFCshe agreed that when I have Part D, she'll write me prescriptions for Crestor 40 mgNov 23 05:30
DaemonFCand I can split them twice to make 4 10 mg pillsNov 23 05:30
ender2070_crazyNov 23 05:30
DaemonFCright now I get it free from the drug company cause I'm broke and have no insuranceNov 23 05:30
ender2070_my doctor writes the prescription for the drugs actual scientific nameNov 23 05:31
DaemonFCbut when I have insurance, I'm gonna need to split a higher dose of all my brand name pillsNov 23 05:31
DaemonFCto make them last longerNov 23 05:31
DaemonFCthat would take it from the $40 a month to about $10Nov 23 05:31
DaemonFCwhich approaches reasonableNov 23 05:31
ender2070_what is it forNov 23 05:32
ender2070_if u dont mindNov 23 05:32
DaemonFCanother option is switch to a less effective genericNov 23 05:32
DaemonFCand pay 100% of that anywayNov 23 05:32
DaemonFCand put up with more side effectsNov 23 05:32
ender2070_less effective generic?Nov 23 05:32
DaemonFCender2070_: CholesterolNov 23 05:33
DaemonFCyeahNov 23 05:33
ender2070_if its the same drug why would it changeNov 23 05:33
DaemonFCender2070: Generic statins don't work as wellNov 23 05:33
DaemonFCand you have to take higher dosesNov 23 05:33
DaemonFCthere's no generic for CrestorNov 23 05:33
ender2070_you probably hear this a lot but you could probably eat healthier and not need the pillsNov 23 05:33
DaemonFCthere won't be until after 2017 when the patents run outNov 23 05:33
DaemonFCender2070_: NopeNov 23 05:34
DaemonFCtried it for months and my LDL only went down about 10%Nov 23 05:34
ender2070_you have to keep at itNov 23 05:34
DaemonFCit needed to go down more like 40% or moreNov 23 05:34
DaemonFCno diet would fix thatNov 23 05:34
DaemonFCmy liver was making pretty much all of itNov 23 05:34
ender2070_i know of people who got off cancer for example, simply by going organic foodsNov 23 05:34
ender2070_most disease is caused by what we eatNov 23 05:35
ender2070_perhaps, at least healthy eating will prevent damage from having to take smaller dosages?Nov 23 05:35
DaemonFCthe 10 mg is working wellNov 23 05:36
DaemonFCI just got my lipid profile back and I went from LDL 166 to 91Nov 23 05:36
DaemonFCit should be 100 or lessNov 23 05:36
ender2070_not badNov 23 05:37
ender2070_i dont like to see people having to spend their lives on medicationNov 23 05:37
DaemonFCit's effective, it just costs a fortuneNov 23 05:37
ender2070_you gotta pay $10 just to liveNov 23 05:37
DaemonFCI'm also on 20 mg Lisinopril each dayNov 23 05:37
DaemonFCgot my blood pressure down from 146/100 to 122/82Nov 23 05:38
ender2070_how old are you?Nov 23 05:38
DaemonFCthat's where it was last time I checkedNov 23 05:38
ender2070_i thought you were 25ishNov 23 05:38
DaemonFC25Nov 23 05:38
ender2070_why do you have cholesteral and blood pressure problems at that age?Nov 23 05:38
DaemonFCunder 130/90 is where you want it, ideallyNov 23 05:38
DaemonFCgeneticsNov 23 05:39
DaemonFCmy dad had the same problems around my ageNov 23 05:39
ender2070_cant blame it all on genetics thoughNov 23 05:39
DaemonFCyeah, you can, if that's what caused itNov 23 05:39
ender2070_cholesteral no, maybe blood pressureNov 23 05:40
DaemonFCI'm convinced it is, because my aunt is in her 50s, obese, and her blood pressure and cholesterol are both fineNov 23 05:40
DaemonFCgenetics has more to do with the problem than people like to thinkNov 23 05:40
ender2070_cholesteral is literally a greese like substance that is chocking you from the insideNov 23 05:40
ender2070_it builds up from what you eatNov 23 05:40
DaemonFCwhat you eat is not really the issueNov 23 05:40
ender2070_you might have genetics that suggest your body cant get rid of cholesteralNov 23 05:41
DaemonFCnot if 80% or more of that cholesterol is made by your liverNov 23 05:41
ender2070_at which point, you have to spend more effort avoiding itNov 23 05:41
DaemonFCif I was eating a grease and salt sandwich every day, I might figure it was my dietNov 23 05:41
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DaemonFCbut even eating a low cholesterol low salt diet didn't fix anythingNov 23 05:41
ender2070_did u eat a lot of oatmeal?Nov 23 05:42
DaemonFCbelieve me I choked down that flavorless crap every day for 6 months and it didn't even make a dentNov 23 05:42
DaemonFCI hate oatmealNov 23 05:42
DaemonFCI ate cereal thoughNov 23 05:42
ender2070_heh so do iNov 23 05:42
ender2070_i started eating itNov 23 05:42
ender2070_i dont want to get chloresteral or heart problemsNov 23 05:42
DaemonFCby the time I decided to stop doing that, I was like "Cheeseburger and fries, stat!"Nov 23 05:43
ender2070_LOLNov 23 05:43
DaemonFCcause I hadn't been eating real food for monthsNov 23 05:43
ender2070_it had to have helped a bitNov 23 05:43
DaemonFCI'll still eat chefs salads and suchNov 23 05:43
DaemonFCI love themNov 23 05:43
ender2070_if my liver was producing 80% of my chloresteral, i would completely avoid cheeseburgersNov 23 05:43
DaemonFClike I said, it only got the LDL down by about 12%Nov 23 05:44
ender2070_12% beats 0Nov 23 05:44
ender2070_wouldnt u say?Nov 23 05:44
DaemonFCit was a help, but it wasn't doing enough and it wasn't worth the reduction in quality of lifeNov 23 05:44
DaemonFCyou try eating a vegetarian diet for 6 months and tell me you don't want some real foodNov 23 05:44
ender2070_obviouslyNov 23 05:44
DaemonFCthe only thing I can say about it is that I did lose about 25 poundsNov 23 05:45
ender2070_i think you should still stick with itNov 23 05:45
DaemonFCthough I think it was cause there was no motivation to overeatNov 23 05:45
ender2070_or at least try to eat a little healthier, it cant hurtNov 23 05:45
DaemonFCif you locked someone in a fallout shelter with vegetarian food, and a gun......Nov 23 05:45
DaemonFCI think within a week, they'd turn the gun on themselvesNov 23 05:46
ender2070_actuallyNov 23 05:46
ender2070_vs starvation, people will eat rotten foodNov 23 05:46
ender2070_i wouldnt assume someone would kill themselvesNov 23 05:46
DaemonFCcannibalism > vegetarian food > gun?Nov 23 05:46
DaemonFCB-)Nov 23 05:46
ender2070_vegetarian food isnt that badNov 23 05:46
DaemonFCno wait.....Nov 23 05:46
DaemonFCcannibalism > canned dog food > vegetarian food > gunNov 23 05:47
ender2070_if it was the only food, it wouldnt be as bad as you are sayingNov 23 05:47
ender2070_cheeseburger > carrots, perhapsNov 23 05:47
ender2070_butNov 23 05:47
ender2070_death > carrots, i'd take carrotsNov 23 05:47
DaemonFCnah, but I just can't imagine a person eating it by choiceNov 23 05:47
ender2070_you need meatNov 23 05:48
DaemonFCthere's compromises that aren't nasty that aren't loaded with fat and cholesterolNov 23 05:48
DaemonFCturkey burgers for exampleNov 23 05:48
ender2070_yeahNov 23 05:48
ender2070_thats what im trying to suggestNov 23 05:48
ender2070_a little healthier cant hurtNov 23 05:48
ender2070_not saying go 100%Nov 23 05:48
ender2070_try only having that cheeseburger at dinnerNov 23 05:49
ender2070_etcNov 23 05:49
DaemonFCI had blueberry pancakes with sugar free syrup and turkey bacon with scrambled egg beaters and some black coffeeNov 23 05:49
DaemonFCthat was dinnerNov 23 05:49
ender2070_perhaps force yourself to eat some oatmeal alongside the other stuff you enjoyNov 23 05:49
DaemonFCthere's some substitutes that aren't terribleNov 23 05:49
DaemonFCthere's a fat free poppyseed dressing I like a lotNov 23 05:50
DaemonFCI eat the plain cheerios with banana slices and splendaNov 23 05:50
ender2070_yeahNov 23 05:50
ender2070_i myself drink diet popNov 23 05:50
DaemonFCbad ideaNov 23 05:50
ender2070_?Nov 23 05:51
ender2070_for my teeth mainlyNov 23 05:51
DaemonFCI try to drink it sparingly, the aspartame is not good for youNov 23 05:51
DaemonFCyeah, aspartame won't rot teeth, it will hurt kidneys thoughNov 23 05:51
DaemonFCDiet Rite uses SplendaNov 23 05:51
ender2070_my teeth are my more immediate concernNov 23 05:51
ender2070_i have two teeth that are broken that i need removedNov 23 05:52
DaemonFCI'd just go for Splenda (sucralose) and not have it destroy eitherNov 23 05:52
ender2070_most of the diet pop i drink has sucraloseNov 23 05:52
DaemonFCyeah, I have two minor cavities I need filledNov 23 05:52
ender2070_i avoid aspertameNov 23 05:52
DaemonFCif I had been drinking sugar pop though I'd have really gotten hit with some major dental overhaulsNov 23 05:52
ender2070_asptertame is a byproduct of the aluminum industry, iircNov 23 05:52
DaemonFCand diabetes IINov 23 05:52
ender2070_canada doesnt give free dentalNov 23 05:53
ender2070_:(Nov 23 05:53
ender2070_unless your a kidNov 23 05:53
DaemonFCthere's teenagers that have cavities thanks to sugar popNov 23 05:53
ender2070_i had cavities through my childhoodNov 23 05:53
DaemonFCI like to think I put off the cavities for 10 or more years by avoiding itNov 23 05:53
ender2070_now i have to use special toothpaste to harden and numb my teethNov 23 05:54
DaemonFCender2070_: What sucks is how much composite fillings costNov 23 05:54
DaemonFCthere's jsut too many advantages over silver fillings to try and get cheap thoughNov 23 05:54
ender2070_mine are all compositeNov 23 05:54
DaemonFCyeah, you might save $40 per filling to have your tooth break laterNov 23 05:54
ender2070_i did have 90% coverage as a kid via my parents insuranceNov 23 05:55
DaemonFCthen there's the fact it has mercury in it and doesn't blend inNov 23 05:55
DaemonFCyeah, I got my wisdom teeth outNov 23 05:55
ender2070_i dont think people i canada get silver ones, we get free health and our work usually cover dentalNov 23 05:55
DaemonFCdue to some quirk in my dad's policy, I was technically covered til the last day of the year I turned 18Nov 23 05:56
DaemonFCso like December 30, 2002 I had them all outNov 23 05:56
ender2070_my two broken teeth that need to be removed are beside both my wisdom teeth on the bottomNov 23 05:56
DaemonFCthe very last day I was coveredNov 23 05:56
DaemonFCdidn't pay a pennyNov 23 05:56
ender2070_my wisdom teeth will replace themNov 23 05:56
DaemonFCif I had them out when the place was open again on January 2, 2003, I would have paid over $2,500Nov 23 05:57
DaemonFC:)Nov 23 05:57
ender2070_i also suspect my wisdom teeth might have caused them to break, they were filled in previously and pressure might have done itNov 23 05:57
DaemonFCyeah, getting the wisdom teeth out early is a good ideaNov 23 05:57
DaemonFCthey can cause problems all your life if you don'tNov 23 05:58
ender2070_in my caseNov 23 05:58
ender2070_if i didNov 23 05:58
ender2070_i wouldnt have my back chewing teeth when i get them removedNov 23 05:58
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ender2070_my wisdom teeth are supposedly going to shift over in their placeNov 23 05:58
ender2070_which is better imoNov 23 05:59
DaemonFChope they aren't wrapped around your jawNov 23 05:59
ender2070_they arentNov 23 05:59
DaemonFCyou're going to get a broken jaw for them to take them out if they areNov 23 05:59
DaemonFCwell, you caught a break thereNov 23 05:59
DaemonFCmy dad's wereNov 23 05:59
ender2070_they are hardly impactedNov 23 06:00
ender2070_if they dont shift straight i might need bracesNov 23 06:00
ender2070_thats the worst the dentist saidNov 23 06:00
DaemonFCthey told me not to eat starting 8 hours before the surgery or 24 hours afterNov 23 06:00
DaemonFCso like 6-7 hours after they're done, right? My mouth is still bleeding.Nov 23 06:00
ender2070_my wisdom teeth were noticed when i was 14Nov 23 06:01
ender2070_im 25 now and they just finally came inNov 23 06:01
DaemonFCI decided "Fuck it, I'm getting some Taco Bell"Nov 23 06:01
ender2070_LOLNov 23 06:01
DaemonFCI managed to get a couple burrito supremes down by chewing on the front teethNov 23 06:01
ender2070_DaemonFC - usually when they say that you can get away with soup and waterNov 23 06:01
DaemonFCahemNov 23 06:01
ender2070_not taco bellNov 23 06:02
ender2070_lolNov 23 06:02
DaemonFCNachos Bell Grande-flavored soup?Nov 23 06:02
DaemonFCI thought soNov 23 06:02
ender2070_your immune system isnt ready for that oneNov 23 06:02
DaemonFCwell, ready or not, here it comesNov 23 06:02
DaemonFCdeal with itNov 23 06:02
ender2070_i love their cheesy gordida crunchNov 23 06:02
DaemonFCmeh, getting something crunchy probably wouldn't have gone over wellNov 23 06:03
ender2070_luckily, Chipotle-Away also works on taco bell blood stainsNov 23 06:03
DaemonFCI just decided on the soft shell burritosNov 23 06:03
DaemonFCwe don't have Chipotles hereNov 23 06:04
DaemonFCso I never really got that jokeNov 23 06:04
DaemonFCand I've never had diarrhea that wasn't flu-relatedNov 23 06:04
DaemonFCI've had heartburn a couple times when I really overdid it on some habenero sauce or somethingNov 23 06:05
ender2070_lots of stuff has chipotleNov 23 06:05
ender2070_chipotle is also a sauceNov 23 06:06
DaemonFCyeah, I am awareNov 23 06:06
ender2070_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etTHAmqjnBANov 23 06:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @ShivamVij: Abida Parveen's voice is actually Amitabh Bachchan's, new investigation reveals. #fakingnewsNov 23 06:07
ender2070_you find it in everything without even knowing itNov 23 06:07
ender2070_southwest sauce is either the same or based on itNov 23 06:07
DaemonFCI'm making bbq ribs tomorrowNov 23 06:10
DaemonFCmmmmmNov 23 06:10
ender2070_mmmmmmmmmNov 23 06:10
DaemonFCit's some powder that you mix with water and brush it on the ribsNov 23 06:12
DaemonFCcan't remember what brand, but it's goodNov 23 06:12
DaemonFCprobably the worst thing for me that I ever make is these giant half pound burgers with cream of mushroom soup on them and melted velveetaNov 23 06:13
DaemonFCtopped with baconNov 23 06:14
DaemonFCmy mom lives down the street, so we just pool the grocery money and take turns cookingNov 23 06:15
DaemonFCbeats living off those really expensive TV dinnersNov 23 06:15
DaemonFCthere's just no economy of scale when you're only cooking for yourselfNov 23 06:15
DaemonFCthey gouge you with all these little 1 serving dealsNov 23 06:16
DaemonFCand you have stuff going bad all the timeNov 23 06:16
ender2070_yeah i know what you meanNov 23 06:17
DaemonFChttp://www.amazon.com/dp/B0012ONFRS/ref=asc_df_B0012ONFRS969247?smid=A2BBUA7LL95L5R&tag=shopzilla_mp_1006-20&linkCode=asn&creative=380341&creativeASIN=B0012ONFRSNov 23 06:27
phIRCe-BNcTitle: McCormick Bbq Pulled Pork, 1.6-Ounce Units (Pack of 12): Amazon.com: Grocery .::. Size~: 302.04 KBNov 23 06:27
DaemonFCthat's what I use on the ribsNov 23 06:27
Diablo-D3ooohNov 23 06:27
Diablo-D3who posted that linkNov 23 06:27
Diablo-D3because the mccormick bbq pulled pork seasoning packets are awesomeNov 23 06:27
*Diablo-D3 owns a crock pot, makes it every once in awhileNov 23 06:28
ender2070_:)Nov 23 06:31
ender2070_daemon didNov 23 06:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Good morning everyone! Today is D-Day for me. Will release my new album "Voice of the Kernel" today. Currently writing the announcement.Nov 23 06:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] The files are already accessible via ftp://ftp.slated.org/ml2mst/votk but still have to do the final touch.Nov 23 06:32
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ender2070_"Everyone votes for a Dictator"Nov 23 06:46
ender2070_-The PrisonerNov 23 06:46
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ender2070_lol "Religion is like Kindergarden for Psychopaths" - Michael TsarionNov 23 06:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Is it about legal amendments needed for nuid?Nov 23 07:06
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DaemonFChttp://www.securitypronews.com/insiderreports/insider/spn-49-20091120SecurityProblemsFoundWithFirefoxExtensions.htmlNov 23 07:44
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Security Problems Found With Firefox Extensions .::. Size~: 23.45 KBNov 23 07:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] testing from centerIMNov 23 07:48
DaemonFCender2070: Would you rather have a really nice recliner or a really nice TV?Nov 23 08:01
DaemonFCif you could only afford oneNov 23 08:01
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DaemonFChttp://popup.lala.com/popup/576742248996689317Nov 23 08:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Lala Song Player - Angry Again by Megadeth .::. Size~: 22.9 KBNov 23 08:21
DaemonFChttp://popup.lala.com/popup/360569462346958760Nov 23 08:26
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Lala Song Player - Duality by Slipknot .::. Size~: 22.81 KBNov 23 08:26
DaemonFChttp://fortwayne.craigslist.org/for/1471982812.htmlNov 23 08:55
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Forklift .::. Size~: 4.02 KBNov 23 08:55
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] If you like the chrome browser interface, but are a true firefoxer, then google "chromifox" and you'll be in joy!Nov 23 09:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] When a Convicted Criminal Accuses Others of Crime http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/pequot-microsoft-story-returns/Nov 23 10:51
phIRCe-BNcTitle: When a Convicted Criminal Accuses Others of Crime | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 104.25 KBNov 23 10:51
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] really great article on Apple's mistakes in their relationship with developers http://www.paulgraham.com/apple.htmlNov 23 10:51
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Apple's Mistake .::. Size~: 19.3 KBNov 23 10:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Lies About #OOXML and the Failure of Microsoft Office 2010 http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/office-2010-no-iso-ooxml-support/Nov 23 11:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Lies About OOXML and the Failure of Microsoft Office 2010 | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 107.83 KBNov 23 11:20
DaemonFCschestowitz: My aunt still has to use MS OfficeNov 23 11:31
DaemonFCher job requires itNov 23 11:32
schestowitzYes, some places are cluelessNov 23 11:34
schestowitzAlso, it's not just businessesNov 23 11:34
schestowitzIt's also govtNov 23 11:34
schestowitzIn Europe and Malaysia, ODF is more widely acceptedNov 23 11:34
oiaohmThere is a difference between require, need and want DaemonFCNov 23 11:36
DaemonFChere it's always been "whatever Microsoft is using"Nov 23 11:36
oiaohmLot of cases people say require its not.Nov 23 11:36
DaemonFCthe fact that OpenOffice can't export OOXML is not helping itNov 23 11:36
DaemonFCnobody is taking something seriously that defaults to a format nobody is usingNov 23 11:37
DaemonFCit's kind of a paradoxNov 23 11:37
oiaohmFunny enough DaemonFC who says OpenOffice is the only option.Nov 23 11:38
DaemonFCnobody will take OOo seriously until it's compatible with MS Office, but once it was compatible with MS Office, everyone would switchNov 23 11:38
DaemonFCbecause I honestly can't tell you a single person who would pay $200 for MS Office just for shits and gigglesNov 23 11:38
oiaohmWhat about OOo blood releations.Nov 23 11:38
oiaohmThis is the problem DaemonFC tunnel vision.Nov 23 11:39
DaemonFCit's really not _that bad_ of a program, interface-wiseNov 23 11:39
DaemonFCI don't like proprietary formats thoughNov 23 11:39
oiaohmThere is go oo that is a novell blood relation with ooxml export.Nov 23 11:39
DaemonFCOOo has just always struck me as looking like Word 95Nov 23 11:39
DaemonFCit's just incredibly datedNov 23 11:39
oiaohmWhy change interface.Nov 23 11:39
DaemonFCGo-OO does not exportNov 23 11:40
DaemonFCyou still need their plug-inNov 23 11:40
DaemonFCwell, there's usability tests done for a reasonNov 23 11:40
DaemonFCit may work out that people work better when you shift around the UI a certain wayNov 23 11:41
oiaohmYou are aware that is a to standard ooxml export filter for openoffice.Nov 23 11:41
oiaohmMain reason its not shipped is MS Office cannot process it.Nov 23 11:41
DaemonFCif you find out that square shaped tires don't work so well, are you going to stay with them?Nov 23 11:41
oiaohmSince MS Office does not produce OOXML to standard when you got to future versions documents may not open correctly.Nov 23 11:42
DaemonFCOffice 2010 comes a lot closer to the ISO standard version of OOXMLNov 23 11:42
DaemonFCor so I've heardNov 23 11:42
oiaohmYep and documents from Office 2007 are snaped.Nov 23 11:42
oiaohmSay ouch.Nov 23 11:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NComputing Hijacked by #Microsoft After Bringing in Microsoft Executive http://ur1.ca/gd3wNov 23 11:43
phIRCe-BNcTitle: NComputing Hijacked by Microsoft After Bringing in Microsoft Executive | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 106.67 KBNov 23 11:43
oiaohmSo really only fools would be using OOXML at this stage from MS OfficeNov 23 11:43
DaemonFCI doubt itNov 23 11:43
DaemonFCthere would just need to be an import filterNov 23 11:43
DaemonFCnot the first timeNov 23 11:43
oiaohmMS did not include any version id string in the format.Nov 23 11:44
DaemonFCahh, and there's the genius planNov 23 11:44
DaemonFCnot original but it still makes moneyNov 23 11:44
oiaohmODF has a version tag.Nov 23 11:44
oiaohmSomeone was sane.Nov 23 11:44
DaemonFCsave a document in new version of Office and it no longer loads right in the old versionNov 23 11:44
oiaohmIts both ways.Nov 23 11:45
oiaohmOld office document does not open right in 2010 unless you special load it.Nov 23 11:45
DaemonFColder documents import fine into new MS Office, but they don't go back once you've saved themNov 23 11:45
DaemonFCit's a one way street to frustrate people into upgradingNov 23 11:45
oiaohmBut you have to import each one.Nov 23 11:45
oiaohmPeople would have been better off using sun odf plugin in MS Office than ooxml.Nov 23 11:46
DaemonFCthe really insidious part is that Microsoft can stick a "Save as (old Office format)" to get the regulators off of themNov 23 11:46
DaemonFCbut nobody uses it cause it's not the default optionNov 23 11:46
DaemonFCthe Sun plug-in is basically stuffing a whole copy of OOo into MS OfficeNov 23 11:47
DaemonFCwhy bother?Nov 23 11:47
DaemonFCit's an 80 megabyte "plug-in"Nov 23 11:47
oiaohmIts temporary.Nov 23 11:47
oiaohmUntil 1.2 ODF gets released and MS own ODF plugin comes into alignment.Nov 23 11:47
DaemonFCit's like saying "Sure we can make your car work, just weld this truck onto it and you'll be up and running in no time!"Nov 23 11:48
oiaohmBut the documents are future stable DaemonFCNov 23 11:48
oiaohm80 meg price now for future stablity and in future you will not need the temp support.Nov 23 11:48
DaemonFCtil you send them to another MS Office user and Microsoft's ODF mangles the ever loving crap out of itNov 23 11:49
oiaohmIt only mangles excel DaemonFCNov 23 11:49
oiaohmNot a common sent format.Nov 23 11:49
oiaohmOOXML forumals in a ODF document kinda causes some major problems.Nov 23 11:49
DaemonFCoiaohm: I ended up using Star Office for a while cause I bought a boxed set and it rang up for 1 pennyNov 23 11:50
DaemonFCthat was back when they had boxed copies of Linux on the shelfNov 23 11:50
DaemonFCyou'd need to carbon date thatNov 23 11:50
*ender2070_ gives channel operator status to ender2070Nov 23 11:50
DaemonFCI think I bought Mandrake Linux and Windows Me at the same timeNov 23 11:50
*ender2070_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Nov 23 11:50
oiaohmAnd MS Office trying to process ODF forumlars with OOXML engine for formulars is funny DaemonFCNov 23 11:50
oiaohmYou know kinda straight up.Nov 23 11:51
oiaohmMS Excel crashes.Nov 23 11:51
DaemonFCnot surprisingNov 23 11:51
DaemonFCMicrosoft's Mac software has always been better than the Windows versionNov 23 11:51
DaemonFCthat's what astounds meNov 23 11:51
oiaohmNot really.Nov 23 11:51
DaemonFCtheir own software is better on a MacNov 23 11:52
oiaohmMS Office for Mac Excel saves a document.Nov 23 11:52
oiaohmOpen on windows windows can die.Nov 23 11:52
oiaohmAnd doing the reverse same can happen.Nov 23 11:52
DaemonFCwhich is funnyNov 23 11:52
oiaohmHow can you say darn unstable programming.Nov 23 11:52
DaemonFCno, I mean like, The quality of their Mac software has been excellentNov 23 11:52
DaemonFCwhile the Windows version sucksNov 23 11:52
oiaohmBoth are broken.Nov 23 11:52
DaemonFCIE for Mac was actually really goodNov 23 11:53
oiaohmOpen windows made documents in mac and the mac suffers.Nov 23 11:53
oiaohmIE for Mac cannot process some sites IE for Windows can without failing.Nov 23 11:53
DaemonFCI doubt it would kill the entire OSNov 23 11:53
oiaohmMac is protected from OS killing applications.Nov 23 11:53
DaemonFCI still haven't had the RTM version of 7 BSOD on meNov 23 11:53
DaemonFCI've had it happen on Vista a few timesNov 23 11:54
oiaohmSamba found what the MS problem was.Nov 23 11:54
oiaohmMS does not have full test suites for there formats.Nov 23 11:54
oiaohmWine has a more complete test suit on the windows API than MS has.Nov 23 11:55
DaemonFChow would that be, exactly?Nov 23 11:57
oiaohmThey never made one DaemonFCNov 23 11:57
oiaohmThere is no test suite for the MS network protocals other than sambas either.  MS is party funding samba to make one for them.Nov 23 11:58
oiaohmBasically using MS produces is riding by seat of pants.  By luck and hacking it works.Nov 23 11:58
DaemonFCWhat really makes me wonder is why people say to use Firefox when it has a worse fundamental problem than IE/ActiveXNov 23 11:59
DaemonFCno sandboxing for plugins or extensions, they can all modify anything they want, they all have the same access as the logged in userNov 23 11:59
DaemonFCnot even IE gives anything that kind of access anymoreNov 23 12:00
oiaohmSandboxing for plugins does not gain you much under IE.Nov 23 12:00
oiaohmReason items like flash under windows use services running at a higher level to break sandbox.Nov 23 12:00
DaemonFCOpera has always had a well defined API that plugins are limited toNov 23 12:00
DaemonFCit never would let a widget compromise the browserNov 23 12:00
oiaohmOpera is breached the same.Nov 23 12:01
oiaohmLot of the common plugins will not work if you contain them correctly on windows because they are incorrectly designed.Nov 23 12:02
oiaohmHello hell.Nov 23 12:02
DaemonFCnow that Firefox has some users, it's drawing the attention of attackersNov 23 12:02
oiaohmChrome has handling the exentions bit quite well.Nov 23 12:02
DaemonFCeverything from Phishing to malicious extensionsNov 23 12:02
MinceRchrome has extensions? :)Nov 23 12:03
oiaohmGears MinceRNov 23 12:03
MinceRthat isn't nearly the same thing, afaikNov 23 12:03
oiaohmIt does not allow interface altering yet.  MinceRNov 23 12:04
DaemonFCmeh, Chrome still gives you no way to block adsNov 23 12:04
DaemonFCblocking ads is simple in OperaNov 23 12:04
MinceRyou could block ads with privoxy, even though it's fiddlierNov 23 12:04
DaemonFCif I wanted to have to use a local proxy server to filter ads, I might as will use IENov 23 12:04
MinceRbut NoScript would be much more difficult to replaceNov 23 12:04
MinceRif all IE lacked was ad blocking, you might as well use it :>Nov 23 12:05
DaemonFCIE will never have easy ad blocking that works wellNov 23 12:05
DaemonFCI think that's the major reason why it's still losing usersNov 23 12:05
MinceRit will never have web standards support eitherNov 23 12:05
DaemonFCit's getting betterNov 23 12:06
DaemonFClast IE 9 development build got 32/100 on ACID 3Nov 23 12:06
MinceRit isn't exactly difficult to improveNov 23 12:06
DaemonFCIE 8 got 20Nov 23 12:06
MinceRyet m$ has already shown that they don't careNov 23 12:06
MinceR(see their current hack)Nov 23 12:06
DaemonFCthey typically are a year or three behindNov 23 12:07
DaemonFCthey get there I guessNov 23 12:07
oiaohmNo DaemonFCNov 23 12:07
MinceRit isn't a web browser, it's a browser for something other than the webNov 23 12:07
oiaohmOnly reason MS is supporting standards is web developers are giving them no option.Nov 23 12:07
MinceRstrange, web developers are giving all the other browsers the option, somehowNov 23 12:08
DaemonFClots of sites are turning away IE 6 users finallyNov 23 12:08
MinceRyeah, let's just pretend it isn't m$'s fault :>Nov 23 12:08
DaemonFCOpera will soon support those multimedia tagsNov 23 12:09
DaemonFCprobably by 10.2Nov 23 12:09
DaemonFCin most ways it's ahead of Mozilla GeckoNov 23 12:09
MinceRi don't doubt thatNov 23 12:10
DaemonFC10.1 is going to be Unite and a lot of bug fixesNov 23 12:10
DaemonFCno rendering engine improvements it looks likeNov 23 12:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SAP #Microsoft Attack on #Java, OpenOffice.org Culminates in Alliance http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/microsoft-and-sap-collude/Nov 23 12:11
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SAP/Microsoft Attack on Java, OpenOffice.org, Other Libre Products Culminates in Alliance | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 107.75 KBNov 23 12:11
oiaohmhttp://jaxov.com/2009/09/how-to-install-google-chrome-crx-extensions/  There are more like firefox extentions plained for chrome.Nov 23 12:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: How To Install Google Chrome [CRX] Extensions | Jaxov .::. Size~: 23.28 KBNov 23 12:13
DaemonFChttp://www.audible.com/adbl/site/LandingPages/bigListen.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=YesNov 23 12:14
DaemonFCFree book from AudibleNov 23 12:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Learning about Oracle RAC on LinuxNov 23 12:20
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zer0c00lmigueldeicaza has become a silverlight proponent http://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/5832723562Nov 23 12:24
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Twitter / Miguel de Icaza: OMG OMG OMG OMG #silverlig ... .::. Size~: 9.93 KBNov 23 12:24
zer0c00lWhy he is promoting a non free software?Nov 23 12:25
MinceRbecause he's a m$ proponent and always has beenNov 23 12:25
zer0c00leven he is Retweeting bullshit posts on silverlight http://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/5957865278Nov 23 12:26
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Twitter / Miguel de Icaza: RT @spouliot: "Chrome OS S ... .::. Size~: 10.14 KBNov 23 12:26
zer0c00lDeserved to be called as a traitor ;)Nov 23 12:26
zer0c00lthis is how 'open source' works? Nov 23 12:26
MinceRyes, with the apostrophes :>Nov 23 12:27
zer0c00lhmmNov 23 12:27
zer0c00lall about money Nov 23 12:27
trmancoschestowitz: phirce has a problem with youtube, right?Nov 23 12:38
MinceRdon't we all? :>Nov 23 12:38
trmancoLOLNov 23 12:38
trmancoI guessNov 23 12:38
schestowitztrmanco: yesNov 23 12:52
trmancookNov 23 12:52
schestowitzzer0c00l: you there?Nov 23 12:53
trmancoI'll try to fix it when I have some timeNov 23 12:53
DaemonFCAfter all the DRM bullshit I went through to get the free audiobook, I don't think I'll buy anything from themNov 23 12:53
schestowitzMiguel seems to prevent me from reading his twitsNov 23 12:53
schestowitzPlease quote in full the two Twits aboveNov 23 12:53
DaemonFCWhy pay book prices for DRM crippled nonsense in files that cost them nothing to make?Nov 23 12:53
trmancowhatNov 23 12:54
trmancothe tweets are public :SNov 23 12:54
trmancoschestowitz: I can quote themNov 23 12:54
DaemonFCI'd rather go to Half Price BooksNov 23 12:55
DaemonFCget a better deal there and you actually own the bookNov 23 12:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: I wonder if conservatives buy 50,000 copies of their own book to put it in the best seller listNov 23 12:59
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] shabaa........Nov 23 13:01
schestowitztrmanco: pleaseNov 23 13:05
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schestowitzIt's for my next postNov 23 13:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google ’s (Staff) Index Poisoned by #Microsoft http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/murdoch-and-dodge-problem/Nov 23 13:06
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Googles (Staff) Index Poisoned by Microsoft | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 116.47 KBNov 23 13:06
trmanco"RT @spouliot: "Chrome OS Success May Be Dampened By Silverlight" http://tinyurl.com/yezgk8v -I have a suggestion if anyone #google care"Nov 23 13:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Google Chrome OS Success May Be Dampened By Silverlight | NetbookBoards.com .::. Size~: 45.36 KBNov 23 13:07
trmanco"OMG OMG OMG OMG #silverligh4 has everything I wanted on it: full desktop apps with full system access"Nov 23 13:07
schestowitzThanksNov 23 13:08
Diablo-D3lawlNov 23 13:10
MinceRlolNov 23 13:13
MinceRi can't wait to have full desktop apps with full system access!Nov 23 13:13
MinceRoh, waitNov 23 13:13
Diablo-D3bwhahahahahaNov 23 13:13
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oiaohmProblem is html 5 + webgl and other upcoming we techs offer thwt Silverlight does without platform hooks.Nov 23 13:17
oiaohmwe/webNov 23 13:17
MinceRproblem is none of that belongs on the web anyway :>Nov 23 13:18
oiaohmGoogle ideas include web applications able to run without network connetion.Nov 23 13:19
oiaohmSo  very much like desktop apps.Nov 23 13:19
MinceRnow you can have desktop apps with 10 times the cpu and memory usage!Nov 23 13:19
oiaohmReally.Nov 23 13:20
oiaohmdid you miss google native code projects.Nov 23 13:20
MinceRnot reallyNov 23 13:20
MinceRi'm just fine without any google projects, thanks :>Nov 23 13:20
oiaohmhttp://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/Nov 23 13:21
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] RD: @scorpfromhell 500 http://ff.im/-bSLVGNov 23 13:21
oiaohmThis is really closing the tech difference between web and desktop applications MinceRNov 23 13:21
oiaohmSilverlight is not really about closing the tech difference.Nov 23 13:22
MinceRi don't really share this enthusiasm for forcing everything onto the web for its own sakeNov 23 13:22
oiaohmIts more about being OS netural MinceRNov 23 13:23
oiaohmWeb just happens to be one of the OS netural frameworks out there.Nov 23 13:23
MinceRit also happens to be one of the more complicated onesNov 23 13:24
MinceRand one of the least suited for desktop appsNov 23 13:24
oiaohmMost desktop apps need a update system.Nov 23 13:25
oiaohmWeb provides a way to address that problem.Nov 23 13:25
MinceRso does apt.Nov 23 13:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] New F70EXR camera dispatched. I *will* be at Vagabonds on Saturday going wild with this thing.Nov 23 13:26
oiaohmWeb is really no more complex than java and .net solutions.Nov 23 13:27
schestowitz[12:54] <trmanco> the tweets are public :SNov 23 13:28
schestowitzNot for meNov 23 13:28
schestowitzMaybe the Microsoft lackey blocked meNov 23 13:28
trmancohmmmNov 23 13:28
schestowitzUnless you follow himNov 23 13:28
schestowitzI think that only followers can viewNov 23 13:28
oiaohmMinceR frameworks are frameworks.  You have to remember stand alone or web integrated applications can be done using the web frameworks.  Its a platform netural platform with intergraion as an option.  People forget URL can be used for local files.Nov 23 13:30
trmancoI don't follow himNov 23 13:31
MinceRoiaohm: the fact that you can shoehorn and hammer a desktop app into a web browser doesn't mean it's a good ideaNov 23 13:33
oiaohmMinceR: web interfaces are no more nasty than historic X11 Nov 23 13:33
MinceRyou obviously don't know either the web, X11, or neither. :>Nov 23 13:33
oiaohmTo be correct X11 was more nasty.Nov 23 13:34
MinceRX11 was and is designed for GUI apps. the web wasn't, and still isn't.Nov 23 13:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] ♻ @singlepayer: Robrt Reich calling for a "public option for ALL Americans": http://bit.ly/8coqVn #p2 #hc09 #hcr #healthcareNov 23 13:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The public option ain't what it used to be | Physicians for a National Health Program .::. Size~: 21.21 KBNov 23 13:35
oiaohmX11 has no toolkits.  Toolkits are addons that make it nice to use. MinceRNov 23 13:36
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MinceRtoolkits fit well into the design of X11Nov 23 13:36
oiaohmNot at first MinceRNov 23 13:36
oiaohmThere are starts of tool kits for web for building applications.  Not 100 percent nice but not as bad as some of the early X11 ones.Nov 23 13:37
oiaohmIt will be the quality of the kits on top of Web will decide if its bad or good.Nov 23 13:37
MinceRyeah, let's just shovel another pile of hacks on top of it, that will surely fix itNov 23 13:38
oiaohmYou are aware X11 server does not draw windows boards.  its up to the wm to do it.Nov 23 13:39
MinceRyou are aware most desktop apps don't include a browser window in their GUI, right?Nov 23 13:39
oiaohmbrowser engine just is a rendering engine.Nov 23 13:40
MinceRsure, it's a hypertext rendering engineNov 23 13:40
MinceRmost desktop GUIs aren't just pages of hypertextNov 23 13:40
oiaohmAnd that is really not a issue either.  The hypertext can be just a declare to use webgl or canvas for interface.Nov 23 13:41
MinceRand it's absolutely necessary for a desktop GUI to go through all those hoopsNov 23 13:42
oiaohmQT talks to X11 then by passes to opengl.  So what is the diff MinceRNov 23 13:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell ’s Vice President Could be Tweeting for #Microsoft Dollars http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/novell-silverlight-boosting/Nov 23 13:43
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Novells Vice President Could be Tweeting for Microsoft Dollars | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 109.14 KBNov 23 13:43
MinceR...and potentially trigger a couple dozen browser bugs during thatNov 23 13:43
MinceRoiaohm: the difference is that in the case of X11 those layers are much thinner and simplerNov 23 13:43
oiaohmNo different to when multi X11 servers exists.Nov 23 13:43
oiaohmNice fun Hitting X11 server bugs.Nov 23 13:43
oiaohmX11 is only getting thin in recent years MinceRNov 23 13:44
oiaohmNot when it was young.Nov 23 13:44
MinceRat least in this case we're using the X11 server for what it was designed, developed and testedNov 23 13:45
MinceRmeanwhile we expect the web browser to be everything and the kitchen sinkNov 23 13:45
oiaohmX11 is plained to be removed from Posix world long term and only used for remote applications.Nov 23 13:46
oiaohmX11 is really not designed to do local well and it also by current design does not do remove opengl well either.Nov 23 13:46
oiaohmremove/.remoteNov 23 13:46
oiaohmBasically something has to be made for remote that does not have its issues MinceRNov 23 13:47
oiaohmSilverlight and Flash as options made the web option look good.Nov 23 13:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin happy monster band was fantastic, she loved it!Nov 23 13:48
MinceRthey certainly doNov 23 13:54
MinceRbut that's only because they're both braindeadNov 23 13:54
MinceRand X11 is still the best at what it does, all competing designs are way too inflexibleNov 23 13:55
oiaohmwayland beats X11 for local for flexiblity.   Web beats X11 on remote responce to user events.Nov 23 13:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] David Nutt spanks glib Sky News interviewer http://bit.ly/7X2fVs #nuttsackNov 23 13:58
oiaohmBasically X11 is halfway between two problems and solves neither perfectly.Nov 23 13:58
MinceRwayland is a subset of X11, so it hardly beats it on flexibilityNov 23 14:03
oiaohmWayland is a subset because remote support sections of X11 get in the way of good local support.Nov 23 14:06
oiaohmThat is X11 problem.  MinceR.  Its trying to be a remote and local interface at the same time.Nov 23 14:07
oiaohmIf web provides the requirements good remote applications need.  ie decent responce to users they they know there mouse click has been recived.  Early on in X11 history embedding scripting languages to do this was considered.Nov 23 14:11
oiaohmTo deal with that problem.Nov 23 14:11
oiaohmMost web design is focused on doing remote well.  So not serving to masters two masters.   The serving to two masters is what has made X11 a mess.Nov 23 14:16
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Diablo-D3wowNov 23 14:17
Diablo-D3oiaohm and MinceR both wrong on the same subjectNov 23 14:17
Diablo-D3amazingNov 23 14:17
Diablo-D3for those playing at home, Wayland is not a subset of X11Nov 23 14:17
Diablo-D3its a different set.Nov 23 14:18
Diablo-D3and it exists to solve different issuesNov 23 14:18
Diablo-D3X11 was _not_ designed to solve the issues its currently used forNov 23 14:18
Diablo-D3ie, it is not a desktop display serverNov 23 14:18
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@58.179.103.254) has joined #boycottnovellNov 23 14:18
Diablo-D3oiaohm: while you were gone, I was making fun of your view of XNov 23 14:18
Diablo-D3your view of the entire thing is fundementally wrongNov 23 14:19
Diablo-D3the newest Xorg, internally, is muuuuuuuuuch different than what X once wasNov 23 14:19
Diablo-D3largely, everything in the rendering pipeline is basically goneNov 23 14:19
oiaohmMost of the remote support is gone Diablo-D3.Nov 23 14:19
Diablo-D3thats not what I was talking aboutNov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3X, originally, was designed to solve a _completely different problem_Nov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3it was not designed for the modern desktop. period.Nov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3end of storyNov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3wayland has beenNov 23 14:20
MinceRoiaohm: actually, trying to be both a local and a remote interface isn't a problemNov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3MinceR: it isNov 23 14:20
MinceRall it needs is a more detailed and strict security modelNov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3but for a different reasonNov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3its not up to the display server to offer remoteNov 23 14:20
Diablo-D3its up to something else to do it.Nov 23 14:21
oiaohmTrying to do both like early X11 did only end up with major headaches.Nov 23 14:21
Diablo-D3oiaohm: wrongNov 23 14:21
Diablo-D3early X11 was _for_ remote access Nov 23 14:21
Diablo-D3ergo, X11 has been correctly designed for that exact purpose. period.Nov 23 14:21
Diablo-D3X11 is no longer being used for what it was meant for. period.Nov 23 14:22
oiaohmEary for me Diablo-D3Nov 23 14:22
Diablo-D3modern Xorg no longer has an actual rendering pipeline anymore when using modern drivers.Nov 23 14:22
Diablo-D3this also doubles as something biggerNov 23 14:22
oiaohm1989-1995Nov 23 14:22
Diablo-D3Wayland can _also_ use UXA drivers.Nov 23 14:22
Diablo-D3(UXA == xrender-like pipeline using gpu hardware on the dri2 pipeline)Nov 23 14:23
oiaohmWhen the idea to include scripting got rejected to cure the remote lag on responce.Nov 23 14:23
Diablo-D3(exa, the same, for dri1, works through xrender however and is inefficient)Nov 23 14:23
oiaohmAnd glx and other local only techs entered.Nov 23 14:23
oiaohmCreating something halfway between both and doing both jobs bad.Nov 23 14:23
Diablo-D3oiaohm: except you're bringing up things that have no bearing on what I said.Nov 23 14:23
Diablo-D3[09:19:22] <Diablo-D3> early X11 was _for_ remote access Nov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3[09:19:31] <Diablo-D3> ergo, X11 has been correctly designed for that exact purpose. period.Nov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3[09:19:42] <Diablo-D3> X11 is no longer being used for what it was meant for. period.Nov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3glx was a hack because people were using X incorrectly.Nov 23 14:24
oiaohmEven for remote access its not exactly correct.Nov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3opengl is not meant for remote accessNov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3glx over local OR remote is a hack to deal with the fact X is not for desktops.Nov 23 14:24
oiaohmResponce can be poor to users.  The tech to correct than neer made it into X11 Diablo-D3Nov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3internally, X is no longer XNov 23 14:24
Diablo-D3oiaohm: response is poor BECAUSE X IS NOT FOR DESKTOPSNov 23 14:25
Diablo-D3if you didnt hear me the first two times, X. IS NOT. FOR DESKTOPS.Nov 23 14:25
MinceRkeep shouting, it won't be any more true.Nov 23 14:25
MinceR:>Nov 23 14:25
Diablo-D3MinceR: its actually 100% trueNov 23 14:25
oiaohmRemote access application not being responce user clicking buttons mult times and having problems is not good.Nov 23 14:25
Diablo-D3desktops didnt exist yet, and its a very poor fit for it.Nov 23 14:25
oiaohmI am not talking about desktop issues for remote Diablo-D3Nov 23 14:26
Diablo-D3Im talking about using X on a desktopNov 23 14:26
Diablo-D3its wrong, and its the wrong toolNov 23 14:26
Diablo-D3you can try to say Im wrong, but even all of Xorg's dev team agrees with meNov 23 14:26
oiaohmFor remote X11 never got finished.Nov 23 14:26
oiaohmSo its wrong for remote as well.Nov 23 14:26
MinceR[[citation needed]]Nov 23 14:26
Diablo-D3this is why wayland is actually proceedingNov 23 14:26
Diablo-D3mesaland has merged with Xorgland, and the entire rendering pipeline is ultimately gone on modern driversNov 23 14:27
Diablo-D3its now handled by mesalandNov 23 14:27
oiaohmBy 1989-1995 it was basically halfway between to problemsNov 23 14:27
Diablo-D3the input layer is also goneNov 23 14:27
oiaohmto/twoNov 23 14:27
Diablo-D3X now uses the evdev driver for inputNov 23 14:27
Diablo-D3which means its kernel driven eventsNov 23 14:28
schestowitzwb, fewaNov 23 14:28
Diablo-D3you can still use kbd and mouse, but I suggest you dontNov 23 14:28
Diablo-D3oiaohm: the largest problem with remote, however, is that it should not existNov 23 14:28
Diablo-D3this _needs_ be handled at a higher up layerNov 23 14:28
oiaohmLike web with scripting to run locally so fixing the responce problem Diablo-D3Nov 23 14:29
Diablo-D3exactlyNov 23 14:29
Diablo-D3ajax-driven UIs are rather perfect for thisNov 23 14:29
Diablo-D3the end server is only a data source, it handles no logic for the UINov 23 14:29
Diablo-D3a properly designed ajax webapp, the server has no session support, it has no idea what the user is doingNov 23 14:29
oiaohmOr the old X11 server with proto scripting was prity good too other than that ending up on the junk pile because it really did cost resources locally.Nov 23 14:30
Diablo-D3now, of course, theres lots of morons out there who have designed rather popular ajax webapps wrong... but thats their problem, not mineNov 23 14:30
Diablo-D3oiaohm: except thats wrongNov 23 14:30
Diablo-D3thats wrong by my standards, and thats wrong by typical UNIX hacker standardsNov 23 14:30
Diablo-D3the display server should only handle two thingsNov 23 14:31
Diablo-D3multiplexing the graphics hardware out to other apps (windows, et al)Nov 23 14:31
oiaohmIt was a wrapper.  Cached images so button presses due to mouse actions and the like would work Diablo-D3Nov 23 14:31
Diablo-D3and multiplexing the input.Nov 23 14:31
Diablo-D3oiaohm: you need another app for itNov 23 14:31
Diablo-D3and you know what happens to that app?Nov 23 14:31
Diablo-D3you keep adding more and more and more intelligence to it until you end up with a web browserNov 23 14:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OReilly Does Not Know What Open Means (Let Alone Free) http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/perversion-of-openness/Nov 23 14:32
phIRCe-BNcTitle: OReilly Does Not Know What Open Means (Let Alone Free) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 108.98 KBNov 23 14:32
MinceRbecause all guis are ultimately web pagesNov 23 14:32
MinceRoh wait, no they aren'tNov 23 14:32
Diablo-D3MinceR: they kind of areNov 23 14:32
Diablo-D3it doesn't mean you're stuck using HTML, mind youNov 23 14:32
Diablo-D3or even that HTML is even limitingNov 23 14:32
MinceRjust that you either render text into frames or build a pile of hacks on top of itNov 23 14:33
Diablo-D3AIR (full flash apps on the desktop) breaks you out of the browser without losing powerNov 23 14:33
MinceRflash doesn't have much power to lose :>Nov 23 14:33
Diablo-D3silver... silver... whatever the fuck that microsoft thing was does the same thingNov 23 14:33
Diablo-D3MinceR: no, I mean, AIR includes webkit and everythingNov 23 14:33
Diablo-D3mozilla also has xulrunner for standalones as wellNov 23 14:34
Diablo-D3prism or whatever its calledNov 23 14:34
Diablo-D3all three of those represent the same thingNov 23 14:34
Diablo-D3typical web tech is the ultimate for light and/or remote interaction appsNov 23 14:34
Diablo-D3and its a great fit.Nov 23 14:34
MinceRno it isn'tNov 23 14:35
Diablo-D3yes, it actually is.Nov 23 14:35
MinceRkeep telling yourself thatNov 23 14:35
Diablo-D3quit living in the pastNov 23 14:35
MinceRquit living in a pile of buzzwordsNov 23 14:35
oiaohmResponce to user Web beats X11 RDP VNC .....Nov 23 14:35
Diablo-D3MinceR: I can run the entire frontend of an app using html and javascript aloneNov 23 14:35
Diablo-D3the entire logic and everything is ran in the browserNov 23 14:35
Diablo-D3the server only sends xml to the browserNov 23 14:36
MinceRand can you do dialog layouts like GTK+ does without a huge pile of hacks?Nov 23 14:36
oiaohmReason none of those I listed have a scripting language user end to provide responce so have to wait message to travel both ways. MinceRNov 23 14:36
Diablo-D3MinceR: yes, actually, I can.Nov 23 14:36
MinceRincluding windows in actually the correct sizesNov 23 14:36
Diablo-D3but the large problem is thisNov 23 14:36
MinceRand pulldown menus that actually behave like pulldown menusNov 23 14:36
Diablo-D3gtk is ultimately shitNov 23 14:36
Diablo-D3so is win32 ui shit, so is cocoa or whatever osx's shit is calledNov 23 14:36
MinceRyet it easily beats html for what it doesNov 23 14:36
Diablo-D3that style of UI sucksNov 23 14:37
MinceRbecause that's what it was designed to doNov 23 14:37
Diablo-D3MinceR: except you've misunderstood what html can actually doNov 23 14:37
MinceRexcept i'm still not talking about a pile of hacks on top of htmlNov 23 14:37
trmancocoolNov 23 14:37
Diablo-D3neither am I.Nov 23 14:37
MinceReven though i've seen a couple of those hacks and they still don't work wellNov 23 14:37
Diablo-D3MinceR: but feel free to troll.Nov 23 14:37
Diablo-D3the rest of us are embracing the future.Nov 23 14:37
MinceRDiablo-D3: trolling is your job. :>Nov 23 14:38
trmancomy download speed is beeing throttled by my low upload speed...Nov 23 14:38
oiaohmhttp://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/wolf/  <<That wolf game is html/javascript  Using canves tech. Ok not proper opengl.  MinceRNov 23 14:38
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Nihilogic : Javascript Wolfenstein 3D .::. Size~: 11.17 KBNov 23 14:38
MinceRso we're supposed to move all guis into canvas on top of javascript in a browser window now?Nov 23 14:39
Diablo-D3MinceR: or use a language properly suited for itNov 23 14:39
MinceRjust so we can put "ZOMG WEB" on a checklist for the user to drool over?Nov 23 14:39
Diablo-D3mozilla has xul for that, for exampleNov 23 14:39
Diablo-D3not that Im saying xul is the best option, but it worksNov 23 14:40
MinceRyeah, xul is what makes mozilla browsers so slowNov 23 14:40
MinceRlet's all use thatNov 23 14:40
oiaohmwebgl will most likely be a better option MinceR.  Basically use the same stunt that QT does on X11.Nov 23 14:40
Diablo-D3nope, mozilla's inability to code is what makes it so slowNov 23 14:40
Diablo-D3oiaohm: webgl isnt quite the answer eitherNov 23 14:40
Diablo-D3although, yes, its portableNov 23 14:40
Diablo-D3the web needs native UI hooks through javascriptNov 23 14:40
Diablo-D3or through another sgml or xml languageNov 23 14:40
MinceRand once you can use native UI, you can finally realize that the web doesn't really belong in the pictureNov 23 14:41
Diablo-D3google has a lot of stuff cooking on burnersNov 23 14:41
Diablo-D3MinceR: the web isnt the web anymoreNov 23 14:41
Diablo-D3get over itNov 23 14:41
MinceRwell, it's pretty sadNov 23 14:41
MinceRit's a bloated crapfest nowNov 23 14:41
Diablo-D3not at allNov 23 14:41
Diablo-D3although, I can see why you'd get your head stuck up your ass over itNov 23 14:41
MinceRit's like a big competition on who can eat more CPU and RAM with a page that amounts to a couple paragraphs of text in informationNov 23 14:41
oiaohmMinceR: what you don't see is X11 went threw the same kind of developers.Nov 23 14:42
oiaohmEarly guis will be toolkit messes.Nov 23 14:42
MinceRDiablo-D3: your attitude isn't conducive to meaningful discussion.Nov 23 14:42
Diablo-D3MinceR: neither is yours.Nov 23 14:43
MinceRbtw that competition is also what leads to stuff breaking in random browsersNov 23 14:43
oiaohmThe idea that webpages have to be power bad is kinda wrong MinceRNov 23 14:43
MinceRoiaohm: i don't understand that sentenceNov 23 14:43
Diablo-D3MinceR: I heavily track new techs like thisNov 23 14:43
Diablo-D3you dontNov 23 14:43
Diablo-D3Ive already written code that uses webgl, you havent. I've already dug around in the internals for chrome, you haventNov 23 14:43
MinceRDiablo-D3: and you seem to be unable to see the big pictureNov 23 14:44
MinceRDiablo-D3: you've bought into the hype over shoveling everything into the web browserNov 23 14:44
oiaohmBig question how are you going to service remote access MinceR.Nov 23 14:44
oiaohmYou are not seeing the big picture either MinceRNov 23 14:44
oiaohmThere are two markets that need to be serviced.Nov 23 14:44
Diablo-D3MinceR: no, I just described the big picture, and a large part of the history using a very small number of sentences.Nov 23 14:45
oiaohmLocal desktop applications only service one market.  People who are not operating remote and may not be able to install applications.Nov 23 14:45
MinceRlolNov 23 14:45
oiaohmfor remote you need items that will most likely be installed on most machines.Nov 23 14:46
MinceRoiaohm: that doesn't mean everything has to become a web application from now onNov 23 14:46
Diablo-D3no, but it means those same technologies make local stuff easy as wellNov 23 14:47
Diablo-D3due to how webkit is internally designed, its extremely easy to, say, wrap wayland for a very desktop oriented designNov 23 14:47
oiaohmYou will mostly be like utorrent and other local applications have a web interface for remote.  MinceR.   So the applications will mostly go duel.Nov 23 14:48
Diablo-D3X11 failed in it's task, btw, because its too low levelNov 23 14:48
Diablo-D3apps cant describe what they're doing in sufficient detailNov 23 14:48
ender2070X11 is awesomeNov 23 14:48
Diablo-D3X11 not having a widget toolkit, for example, was a huge mistakeNov 23 14:48
ender2070nahNov 23 14:48
MinceRno, it was what allowed multiple toolkits to use itNov 23 14:48
Diablo-D3MinceR: thats not entirely right eitherNov 23 14:49
MinceRwithout that you'd have separate windowing systems for each toolkitNov 23 14:49
Diablo-D3what it needed was a local session serverNov 23 14:49
ender2070if X11 had its own widget toolkit besides the widget toolkit it now comes with, qt and gtk might not be aroundNov 23 14:49
Diablo-D3one that wraps the display server and provides additional thingsNov 23 14:49
oiaohmMult toolkits lead to applications seaming out of place so is not right either.Nov 23 14:49
MinceRmultiple toolkits are a fact of life. deal with it.Nov 23 14:49
Diablo-D3if you ran gnome, your display server would have a gnome server to interact with itNov 23 14:49
ender2070multiple toolkits is a good ideaNov 23 14:49
Diablo-D3MinceR: its inefficient.Nov 23 14:50
Diablo-D3but thats not the issueNov 23 14:50
oiaohmFreedesktop project is spending years getting the toolkits to get along now.Nov 23 14:50
ender2070image if gnomes stupid ideas had to be used by everyone, for exampleNov 23 14:50
Diablo-D3the issue is X has no clue how to optiminally interact with itNov 23 14:50
ender2070imagine*Nov 23 14:50
Diablo-D3ender2070: yes, which is why I just advocated the unix designNov 23 14:50
oiaohmX11 could have killed the mess freedesktop is cleaning up now.Nov 23 14:50
Diablo-D3the X server cannot be expanded, ender2070, MinceR Nov 23 14:50
Diablo-D3thats the largest issueNov 23 14:50
Diablo-D3theres no way to send it informationNov 23 14:50
MinceRyou claim to advocate the unix design yet you keep telling us the most unixy windowing system is crap. :>Nov 23 14:51
ender2070yeah lolNov 23 14:51
MinceRactually it canNov 23 14:51
oiaohmJust by laying down a few basic toolkit bits like colours would hae cleaned up a lot.Nov 23 14:51
ender2070you want it to be like osx and windowsNov 23 14:51
ender2070which are very anti unixNov 23 14:51
MinceRthat's what extensions are for :>Nov 23 14:51
Diablo-D3MinceR: you cant extend it using your own code, howeverNov 23 14:51
Diablo-D3I cant send it, say, a javascript blob and have it run itNov 23 14:51
Diablo-D3gtk cant send it half it's rendering pipeline and gtk and it just speak together with xmlNov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3(or some binary representation)Nov 23 14:52
MinceRi don't miss xml thereNov 23 14:52
MinceRit's a markup language, not a serialization languageNov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3get what Im saying MinceR?Nov 23 14:52
oiaohmwayland really is the Unix way.  It does one thing really well. ender2070 and MinceR.   And leaves most stuff to other items.Nov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3you cant programmably extend X without recompiling XNov 23 14:52
MinceRi see what you're missingNov 23 14:52
MinceRit would be nice for remote apps to put some logic into the display server.Nov 23 14:52
oiaohmX11 tryed doing too many things so really was not the Unix way.Nov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3MinceR: exactlyNov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3MinceR: BUTNov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3as I said about 100 lines upNov 23 14:52
MinceRbut i don't think the web is a good way to do that.Nov 23 14:52
Diablo-D3once you do that, you keep adding more and more shit until you have most of a web browserNov 23 14:53
MinceRactually i don't see any current technology that does it well.Nov 23 14:53
Diablo-D3which is why you need a local app to wrap the display serverNov 23 14:53
Diablo-D3MinceR: modern browsers do it wellNov 23 14:53
MinceRyou might have most of a web server, yet a web server is not what you need.Nov 23 14:53
Diablo-D3problem is most people dont know how to use themNov 23 14:53
MinceRs/server/browser/gNov 23 14:53
Diablo-D3actually, pretty much a web browser is what I needNov 23 14:53
Diablo-D3you know what the most complex normal port of the browser is?Nov 23 14:54
Diablo-D3a very intelligent layout engineNov 23 14:54
oiaohmYou are aware a javascript application don't have to be talking to a webserver MinceRNov 23 14:54
MinceRi amNov 23 14:54
oiaohmFrom a webbrowerNov 23 14:54
Diablo-D3html is just one way of interacting with the layout engineNov 23 14:54
Diablo-D3all ui toolkits have a subset of that engineNov 23 14:54
oiaohmSo the server side using html and webbrowers is quite open.Nov 23 14:55
Diablo-D3ui toolkits typically prevent you from designing good UIs due to bad or otherwise forced decisionsNov 23 14:55
MinceRi'm also aware that 1) html is not suitable for normal desktop GUI designs and 2) most of the stuff that's in a web browser is unnecessary for a remote display platformNov 23 14:55
Diablo-D3html actually can be suitable for normal desktop GUI designsNov 23 14:55
Diablo-D3but no, I wouldnt use htmlNov 23 14:55
Diablo-D3I'd use xml.Nov 23 14:55
ender2070if x11 had a ui toolkit, what do you think would happen then, bad decisions because qtk and qt wouldnt existNov 23 14:55
Diablo-D3or rather, a custom designed xml lang for thisNov 23 14:56
MinceR2) is important because it means that you have lots of bloat and browser bugs if you put all this on top of the web.Nov 23 14:56
Diablo-D3my "theme" would be javascript and css used like you use in htmlNov 23 14:56
MinceRDiablo-D3: so all the apps would use different "theme"s?Nov 23 14:56
oiaohmMinceR: 2) I answered this before.  Look at X11 history there were 15 different X11 servers at one time with there unique bugs.Nov 23 14:56
oiaohmI am sorry the numbers of bugs between browers are quite min in compare to them.Nov 23 14:57
MinceRoiaohm: how many bugs would they have if you added all the web functionality on top of that?Nov 23 14:57
Diablo-D3MinceR: no, but themes would stop sucking dickNov 23 14:57
oiaohmBiggest bug is IE.  If you don't support that making your applications work on web become 1000 times simpler.Nov 23 14:57
ender2070themes dont suck dick because of that Diablo-D3Nov 23 14:58
MinceRthemes don't suck dickNov 23 14:58
Diablo-D3ender2070: themes suck dick because its too difficult to interact with the toolkit because the layout engine is incompleteNov 23 14:58
ender2070most themes suck dick everywhere, regardless of the technologyNov 23 14:58
Diablo-D3I dunno, ender2070 Nov 23 14:58
Diablo-D3the default chrome look is actually quite niceNov 23 14:58
oiaohmSame system was used with early X11 as well.  Applications just did not support the weaknessed one.  So culled the field MinceRNov 23 14:58
MinceRi don't like the default chrome look that muchNov 23 14:59
ender2070the default chrome look is an invention of 2008Nov 23 14:59
Diablo-D3the default gtk look, any of them, is an invention of the 1980sNov 23 14:59
ender2070hardlyNov 23 14:59
Diablo-D3at some point you have to stop following XeroxNov 23 14:59
ender2070you may be refering to motifNov 23 14:59
ender2070or gtk 1.xNov 23 14:59
Diablo-D3windows followed xerox and still doesNov 23 14:59
MinceRoiaohm: i don't see what you're talking aboutNov 23 14:59
Diablo-D3osx still doesNov 23 14:59
Diablo-D3and gtk and qt still doNov 23 15:00
Diablo-D3its time to actually make apps that are friendly to humansNov 23 15:00
ender2070what do you mean xeroxNov 23 15:00
MinceRsure, if you call not conforming apps to web pages "following xerox" :>Nov 23 15:00
Diablo-D3ender2070: read your historyNov 23 15:00
ender2070i know all about xeroxNov 23 15:00
Diablo-D3ender2070: I suggest you start with the story about the trash can.Nov 23 15:00
ender2070why fix it if it isn't broken?Nov 23 15:00
oiaohmMinceR: At the start of the X11 desktop there were 15 different X11 servers.  With different incompadiblies.  How many are left.  Only the ones that are low on bugs got supported by lots of applications so users stopped using the others.Nov 23 15:00
oiaohmNote it grew in the middle with some offering opengl and other things closed source MinceR.Nov 23 15:01
ender2070why don't we just reinvent the wheel, perhaps we'll get less cars rolling down hills if they are octagonalNov 23 15:01
MinceRoiaohm: most of those servers were proprietary, weren't they?Nov 23 15:01
oiaohmProprierty and open MinceRNov 23 15:01
ender2070actuallyNov 23 15:02
oiaohmAll got culled MinceRNov 23 15:02
ender2070open source xfree86 killed them allNov 23 15:02
MinceRthat's where i'd look for the reason of deathNov 23 15:02
oiaohmxfree86 had the least bugs ender2070Nov 23 15:02
ender2070it kicked their assesNov 23 15:02
ender2070it ran on lower end hardwareNov 23 15:02
fewageezeNov 23 15:03
oiaohmIt was not just because xfree86 was open source because there were was a BSD X11 server as well and a few other open source ones that are no more MinceRNov 23 15:03
MinceRfewa: plural of gooze? :>Nov 23 15:03
fewa"If you you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear"Nov 23 15:03
MinceRfewa: everyone's got a lot to hideNov 23 15:04
fewaAre they really using that in the UK to justify a police state?Nov 23 15:04
cubezzzwe have geese over here :)Nov 23 15:04
fewaits so orwellianNov 23 15:04
MinceRthe UK is already a police state, isn't it?Nov 23 15:04
ender2070perhaps between its open source rivals it had less bugs, but it mopped the floor with proprietary solutionsNov 23 15:04
oiaohmWe want compadible browers the apps on web will put more presure to have that happen  MinceRNov 23 15:04
MinceRthen again, probably most of the planet isNov 23 15:04
fewato justify putting up Cameras that only the police can viewNov 23 15:04
fewaand delete at their discretion?Nov 23 15:04
ender2070im still glad to have KDENov 23 15:04
MinceRoiaohm: at the current level of complexity browsers won't be compatibleNov 23 15:04
MinceRoiaohm: much less if we put another layer on topNov 23 15:05
MinceRender2070: so am iNov 23 15:05
oiaohmIt will be last one standing MinceRNov 23 15:05
oiaohmSort out the compadbility issues or die MinceRNov 23 15:05
cubezzzI got modules on fc1 I still don't know what they doNov 23 15:05
ender2070"its too hard" doesnt justify destroying all of x11's awesome network abilitiesNov 23 15:06
*MinceR dies.Nov 23 15:06
MinceR;)Nov 23 15:06
ender2070vnc wishes it was as good as nxNov 23 15:07
ender2070this is quite decent, google is currently making a free software server for itNov 23 15:08
ender2070http://www.nomachine.com/Nov 23 15:08
phIRCe-BNcTitle: NoMachine NX - Desktop Virtualization and Remote Access Management Software .::. Size~: 37.67 KBNov 23 15:08
oiaohmProblem here to make network abilities great the toolkits have to be designed to work remote.Nov 23 15:08
ender2070oiaohm -got vnc working on dialup? :)Nov 23 15:08
oiaohmI have used ajax based designed for light load over less bandwith than vnc.Nov 23 15:09
cubezzzis X becoming passé?Nov 23 15:09
MinceRiirc there was a free sw server for it alreadyNov 23 15:09
MinceRcubezzz: sure, to those who don't understand itNov 23 15:10
ender2070freenx is kind of buggy thoughNov 23 15:10
ender2070google expanded on its code iircNov 23 15:10
ender2070but anywaysNov 23 15:10
ender2070now that we got xorg, and its become modular, it opens up a lot of possibilities for improvementsNov 23 15:11
oiaohmIssue is gtk and qt basically are design for all processing at one location ie where the application is running.Nov 23 15:14
oiaohmNot to off load sections of responces to the user end.Nov 23 15:14
oiaohmUnless you can address that behaviour problem X11 will always have remote issues.Nov 23 15:14
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MinceRnow i recall a particular issue with webapps: multiselect. :)Nov 23 15:21
MinceRalso, context menusNov 23 15:21
oiaohmthere are existed web tool kits that get around the multiselect issue.Nov 23 15:22
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oiaohmIts not really that hard to get around.  trap the mouse and draw the selection no probloms.Nov 23 15:23
MinceRcan you detect ctrl+click?Nov 23 15:23
MinceRalso, what about navigation with the keyboard?Nov 23 15:23
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oiaohmRight click context menus work you will see them if you ever had tried eyeosNov 23 15:26
oiaohmThe ctrl click thing I nave not seen working.Nov 23 15:27
oiaohmNavigation by keyboard is also possiable for the full window space is under the javascript control.Nov 23 15:27
oiaohmhttp://bytes.com/topic/javascript/answers/152063-shift-click-control-click  Yep ctrl+click is detectable MinceRNov 23 15:30
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Shift-click, control-click - JavaScript / Ajax / DHTML  answers .::. Size~: 40.76 KBNov 23 15:30
MinceRright-click is problematic because the browser also offers useful functionality on itNov 23 15:31
oiaohmWhile in the javascript controlled area it don't apply MinceRNov 23 15:32
MinceR"javascript controlled area"?Nov 23 15:33
oiaohmright-click can be disabled by javascript then javascript provide a rendered context menu instead.  Only if the area that it done above is reporting mouse actions to javascript.Nov 23 15:34
oiaohmThe one thing a web app cannot do that a local app can is trap you mouse cursor.Nov 23 15:36
MinceRi suspect there are many more things than thatNov 23 15:37
oiaohmcomplete keyboard trapping is possiable.Nov 23 15:37
oiaohmAs long as mouse is above it.Nov 23 15:37
oiaohmLack of interfaces to opengl is a temp problem.Nov 23 15:40
oiaohmSimply the limitations you are bring up were no more about 6 years ago MinceRNov 23 15:41
oiaohmThe limitations are quite small there are insane items like ajax vnc servers around.  And yes all desktop applications with keycombinations and all work.Nov 23 15:44
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Builds Coalitions of NGOs, Makes Political and Educational Changes http://ur1.ca/gdiuNov 23 16:08
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Builds Coalitions of NGOs, Makes Political and Educational Changes | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 120.89 KBNov 23 16:08
schestowitzWow. Even BN's dedicated server cannot meet capacity...Nov 23 16:10
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MinceRbtw i wonder if they're planning on fixing font rendering in chromium :>Nov 23 16:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Amazon Oneclick cousin "by this online and send it as a gift" patent granted by the USPTO: http://i5.be/UTNov 23 16:19
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Amazon Scores Gift-Delivery Patent .::. Size~: 112.3 KBNov 23 16:19
cubezzzfm radio card is rather noisyNov 23 16:20
cubezzzCBC radio 1 isn't noisy at all, CIUT is really noisyNov 23 16:21
cubezzzCIUT, hmmm that's buffalo I thinkNov 23 16:21
cubezzzwhat, no torontoNov 23 16:22
cubezzzwhy is it so bad thenNov 23 16:22
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Balrogschestowitz: server issues again?Nov 23 16:42
schestowitzHmmm... no pages?Nov 23 16:56
schestowitzIt's up and running, under heavy load thoughNov 23 16:56
schestowitzDid you not get a page?Nov 23 16:56
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] hehehe RD: @abbe: http://i.imgur.com/zVn91.jpg #google #waveNov 23 16:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 16:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows at the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and #NASA http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/faa-and-nasa-msft-dependent-mingling/Nov 23 17:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Windows at the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and NASA | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 107.47 KBNov 23 17:02
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Listening to "ஏதோ செய்கிறாய், என்னை ஏதோ செய்கிறாய்,என்னை என்னிடம் நீ அறிமுகம் செய்கிறாய்..." song in headphones and shaking my head.. :DNov 23 17:11
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Sued Over #Xbox 360 Again, Lawsuit for Banning Likely Too http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/sued-over-xbox-360-ban/Nov 23 17:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Sued Over Xbox 360 Again, Lawsuit for Banning Likely Too | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 106.81 KBNov 23 17:21
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC News - New iPhone worm can act like botnet say experts http://tinyurl.com/ykgpnovNov 23 17:31
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC News - New iPhone worm can act like botnet say experts .::. Size~: 51.79 KBNov 23 17:31
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Omar87Hi all.Nov 23 17:44
Omar87schestowitz: hey, Roy, checkout this asshole: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=3372&tag=nl.e101Nov 23 17:45
phIRCe-BNcTitle: TechRepublic Blogs: For IT professionals, by IT professionals .::. Size~: 83.38 KBNov 23 17:45
Balrogschestowitz: it's working; I only read the scrollbackNov 23 17:45
Omar87check out*Nov 23 17:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] General Electric (GE) Attacks #FreeSoftware, #Microsoft Style http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/dirty-laundry-at-general-electric/Nov 23 17:49
phIRCe-BNcTitle: General Electric (GE) Attacks Free Software, Microsoft Style | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 106.52 KBNov 23 17:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Demo of #Amarok 2.2.0 (KDE 4) http://boycottnovell.com/2009/11/23/amarok-2-2-0-as-ogg/Nov 23 17:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Demo of Amarok 2.2.0 (KDE 4) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 102.92 KBNov 23 17:56
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cubezzzHiner is just another non-programmer journalistNov 23 18:15
cubezzzhe doesn't get itNov 23 18:15
cubezzzjust go back to kowtowingNov 23 18:15
cubezzznotice in the comments a lot of people are making anti-windows remarksNov 23 18:17
cubezzzwindows isn't the pinnacleNov 23 18:17
cubezzzjust like McDonalds isn't the best restaurantNov 23 18:17
cubezzzI'm not even going to read the rest of the commentsNov 23 18:18
cubezzzHiner is just flame-baitingNov 23 18:19
cubezzzthe situation is just sad really (with the OEMs)Nov 23 18:20
cubezzzthe fact of the matter is linux market-share is increasingNov 23 18:24
cubezzzeven on the desktop, it's probably higher than 1%Nov 23 18:24
cubezzzhow can you even measure it accurately?Nov 23 18:25
cubezzzcompare something like Fedora 11 to Vista or Windows 7Nov 23 18:25
cubezzzseriously, which would you rather use, it's not even close!Nov 23 18:26
cubezzzare we living in a overly consumerish society where big and bloated is better?Nov 23 18:26
cubezzzeven on Hiner's own graph you can see it's going upNov 23 18:30
Omar87"Seeking customer value at Microsoft is like seeking vitamin C in cocaine.You'll only get addicted to cocaine, you'll start having the illusion that this is what you've been looking for, and an over doze will kill you in no time."Nov 23 18:33
schestowitzOmar87: Hiner is a Microsoft guyNov 23 18:46
schestowitzHe trashed FOSS and admires Microsoft, that's why I avoid himNov 23 18:46
schestowitzOmar87: don't feed himNov 23 18:47
schestowitzIt's like this "game over" pitchNov 23 18:47
schestowitzLike they said Vista 7 would "kill Linux"... as they said about Vista...Nov 23 18:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Microsoft in exclusive search-engine deal with Murdoch http://notnews.today.com/?p=750Nov 23 18:49
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft in exclusive search-engine deal with Murdoch - News of the News .::. Size~: 36.21 KBNov 23 18:49
tessierI think Murdoch is just cutting himself out of the news business.Nov 23 18:50
Omar87schestowitz: I agree.Nov 23 18:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Bilski , #USPTO and Justice for the Rich Only; ‘Community’ Patent and ‘Harmonisation’ in Europe http://ur1.ca/gduaNov 23 18:51
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Patents Roundup: Bilski, USPTO and Justice for the Rich Only;  Community Patent and Harmonisation in Europe | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 124.41 KBNov 23 18:51
schestowitzOmar87: There will always be some ZD-Idiot trying to provoke with these types of 'op-eds'Nov 23 18:52
schestowitzAlways.Nov 23 18:52
schestowitzEven when Linux has 50% market share on the desktop ;-)Nov 23 18:52
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1563063/oracle-eu-extensionNov 23 18:53
Omar87schestowitz: That's right.Nov 23 18:53
Omar87:)Nov 23 18:53
schestowitztessier: more like "cuts off nose to spite his face"Nov 23 18:53
schestowitzLinux has around 10% on phones and growing fastNov 23 18:54
schestowitzIt has 90% in Top500Nov 23 18:54
schestowitzIt has a huge market in embedded systemsNov 23 18:54
schestowitzIn all these areas Linux seems to be well ahead of WindowsNov 23 18:54
Omar87schestowitz: the amazing thing here is that even after all these news about entire countries who began planning to switch their infrastustures to Free software, You still find these idiots yapping. :)Nov 23 18:55
tessierWe are getting a couple of new Windows 7 systems here at the office. It's hard to convince some people to go with Linux.Nov 23 18:55
tessierOmar87: Unfortunately most of those stories are just hype. :(Nov 23 18:55
schestowitzLondon Stock Exchange gets the facts and dumps Windows for Linux < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28359/1141/ >Nov 23 18:55
Omar87tessier: I don't think so.Nov 23 18:55
tessierOmar87: What country has moved their infrastructure to Free Software?Nov 23 18:55
Omar87tessier: Take Italy for example.Nov 23 18:55
Omar87tessier: there's an entire city over there that runs on 100% free software.Nov 23 18:56
schestowitzGermany, France... increasinglyNov 23 18:56
schestowitzmy sister is forced to work with LinuxNov 23 18:56
schestowitzGE uses it secretlyNov 23 18:56
Omar87schestowitz: yeah, and Russia.Nov 23 18:56
schestowitzBrazilNov 23 18:56
Omar87Brazil, Venezuela.Nov 23 18:56
schestowitzKeralaNov 23 18:57
schestowitzzer0c00l` would know..Nov 23 18:57
schestowitzKerala houses 30 million people, IIRCNov 23 18:57
schestowitzANd others like Tamil Nadu follow suitNov 23 18:57
schestowitzBut they run SLED :-(Nov 23 18:57
zer0c00l`schestowitz: yes ELCOT runs SLEDNov 23 18:58
zer0c00l`schestowitz: Schools in Tamilnadu runs SLEDNov 23 18:58
schestowitzamarsh04: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1563044/supercomputer-gpu-clusterNov 23 18:58
schestowitz:-( SLED...Nov 23 18:58
zer0c00l`schestowitz: They started using it long before MS Novell dealNov 23 18:58
schestowitzGNOME...Nov 23 18:58
schestowitzzer0c00l`: yes, around 206Nov 23 18:59
zer0c00l`yesNov 23 18:59
schestowitz*006Nov 23 18:59
zer0c00l`Elcot now promotes ubuntuNov 23 18:59
zer0c00l`though ELCOT is currently inactive , still they using Free softwareNov 23 18:59
zer0c00l`something is better than nothing :)Nov 23 18:59
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zer0c00l`ELCOT MD got fired :(Nov 23 19:00
zer0c00l`AFAIK, he is a good manNov 23 19:00
cubezzzforced to work with Linux?Nov 23 19:00
zer0c00l`cubezzz: who?Nov 23 19:01
zer0c00l`no one is forced Nov 23 19:01
schestowitz"Last week SAS announced to the world that it was giving an evil British copycat a good kicking for nicking its software. SAS is claiming that WP ran its software to study and copy it, and has been selling its copy." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1563010/small-british-outfit-takes-us-software-giantNov 23 19:01
zer0c00l`he was transfered to another department Nov 23 19:01
schestowitzI think I wrote about itNov 23 19:02
zer0c00l`schestowitz: yes :)Nov 23 19:02
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schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/11/microsoft-as-political-movement/Nov 23 19:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft as Political Movement in the US, Maybe India Too | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 119.05 KBNov 23 19:02
schestowitz"In other news, something is happening which involves a former ELCOT officer. ELCOT’s success story with GNU/Linux (Ballnux unfortunately) was noted in a video that can be found here and we believe there may have an important update that relates to previous coverage of what Microsoft does in India..."Nov 23 19:02
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Current #Cell generation is last onel http://ur1.ca/gdv6Nov 23 19:06
phIRCe-BNcTitle: IBM PowerXCell-8i processor said to be last of its kind, but Cell will live on -- Engadget .::. Size~: 132.51 KBNov 23 19:06
schestowitzhttp://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/11/23/helix_wind/Nov 23 19:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Wind turbines to power phone masts • Register Hardware .::. Size~: 19.55 KBNov 23 19:09
schestowitzWatch how drug companies here cause Flu hysteria. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT9fxhrjoQcNov 23 19:15
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amarsh04schestowitz, try this link: http://www.csiro.au/resources/GPU-cluster.htmlNov 23 19:24
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 19:24
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amarsh04the link still works fine for meNov 23 19:26
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schestowitz*LOL*Nov 23 19:37
schestowitz"Whether this was a good move or bad move is mostly a matter of opinion. Clearly, however, we are not going UNIX. We are now headed the same direction Macintosh and Windows are. A single program to rule them all. The extreme of this being Google Chromium OS."Nov 23 19:37
schestowitzIf Chrome OS is the future of Linux, then GOd help us :-)Nov 23 19:37
schestowitzhttp://elevenislouder.blogspot.com/2009/11/future-of-linux.htmlNov 23 19:37
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Eleven is Louder: The Future of Linux .::. Size~: 86.86 KBNov 23 19:37
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schestowitzMinceR: http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2009/11/22/government-is-good-doncha-know/Nov 23 19:45
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Government Is Good, Doncha Know - Homeland Stupidity .::. Size~: 46.73 KBNov 23 19:45
schestowitz"Video games depicting war have come under fire for flouting laws governing armed conflicts." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8373794.stmNov 23 19:47
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 85.83 KBNov 23 19:47
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It's probaby time for Dell to advertise a unique OS. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369626.stmNov 23 19:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 85.83 KBNov 23 19:53
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sebsebsebhiNov 23 19:55
schestowitzhttp://www.my-seo-company.com/index.php?linux&release=Chrome%20OS%200.4.22.8Nov 23 19:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Chrome OS 0.4.22.8 Screenshots - Screenshots of Chrome OS 0.4.22.8 - Linux, BSD, and Solaris Screenshots .::. Size~: 24 KBNov 23 19:56
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schestowitzOuch!! http://hackfud.net/2009/11/21/disaster/ "I had a massive server crash, it was awful – I lost everything – including my emails for the past 2 years! Seriously, if you don’t want to lose 2 years of hard work, BACK YOUR STUFF UP! I should know this already, having been in IT for more than 20 years. A hard lesson has been learned."Nov 23 20:03
schestowitzI've been reading this guy for a whileNov 23 20:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Did you back up this week? If not, do something nice for yourself. http://hackfud.net/2009/11/21/disaster/Nov 23 20:11
schestowitzhttp://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/11/constructive-negativity.htmlNov 23 20:14
phIRCe-BNcTitle: aseigo: constructive negativity .::. Size~: 149.01 KBNov 23 20:14
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*schestowitz reading through.. http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/2009/09/18/the-art-of-community-now-available-for-free-download/Nov 23 20:27
trmancohttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-November/029604.htmlNov 23 20:31
trmancoNOBODY CARESNov 23 20:31
trmancowhoopsNov 23 20:31
_goblinI care!Nov 23 20:35
_goblinoh and Hi!Nov 23 20:35
_goblinmmm suspicious Nov 23 20:36
_goblin"I never had a problem with Vista.....like everyone says......Windows 7 rocks!"Nov 23 20:36
_goblinso if he never had a problem with Vista, why upgrade?Nov 23 20:36
PetoKraushmm i've just got my new 1TB WD HDDNov 23 20:37
PetoKrausit's the green seriesNov 23 20:37
PetoKrausyummy yummyNov 23 20:37
Ender2070why not have the latest?Nov 23 20:38
Ender2070of anythingNov 23 20:38
schestowitztrmanco: http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2009/11/gimp-going-to-get-boot-in-ubuntu-lucid.htmlNov 23 20:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: GIMP going to get the boot in Ubuntu Lucid | All about Linux .::. Size~: 79.74 KBNov 23 20:39
schestowitzSee arguments vs itNov 23 20:39
schestowitzEnder2070: no SPNov 23 20:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nice list: http://recombu.com/news/ten-things-mobiles-have-made-or-will-make-obsolete_M11191.html Add navigaton devices and calculatorsNov 23 20:40
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Ten things mobiles have made, or will make, obsolete - Recombu :: read > compare > buy .::. Size~: 24.95 KBNov 23 20:40
PetoKrausschestowitz, not reallyNov 23 20:40
PetoKrausi've been reading about that list on /. couple of days agoNov 23 20:40
PetoKrausit's quite pish journoNov 23 20:40
schestowitz_goblin: anyone stupid enough to embrace Vista is likely to be stupid enough to also use Vista 7Nov 23 20:40
schestowitzSome recent 'study' showed that most Vista 7 users are just refugees of Vista *rapNov 23 20:41
Ender2070win7 is vista sp3Nov 23 20:41
Ender2070with a new taskbarNov 23 20:41
schestowitzPetoKraus: Depends, I guessNov 23 20:41
PetoKrausi meanNov 23 20:41
schestowitzIt just made me thing of some thingsNov 23 20:41
PetoKrauswatch replacement?Nov 23 20:41
PetoKrausseriously?Nov 23 20:41
schestowitzYeah.Nov 23 20:42
PetoKrausdidn't ev en bother reading after thatNov 23 20:42
schestowitzEnder2070: and previews that improve slightly (read: made more like KDE4)Nov 23 20:42
schestowitzhttp://williampatry.blogspot.com/2005/08/yoga-and-copyright.htmlNov 23 20:43
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Patry Copyright Blog: Yoga and Copyright .::. Size~: 96.86 KBNov 23 20:43
schestowitzIs the Spirit of Competition in the Soul of Yoga?  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/fashion/19fitness.html?_r=1&th&emc=thNov 23 20:44
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The New York Times > Log In .::. Size~: 9.73 KBNov 23 20:44
schestowitzSri Lanka vows to free 130,000 Tamil refugees http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/22/sri-lanka-frees-tamil-refugeesNov 23 20:44
schestowitzCelebrities lead charge against Scientology http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/22/scientology-cruise-haggis-us-australiaNov 23 20:47
MinceRthat's niceNov 23 20:51
schestowitzhttp://www.itwire.com/content/view/29543/1141/ Does RMS deserve a Nobel Peace Prize for GNU? How about RMS or Tim B-L for a Nobel prize. They did a lot more.Nov 23 20:55
schestowitzOpera 10 is out NOWNov 23 20:57
trmanco10.10 isNov 23 20:58
trmancoI got an update todayNov 23 20:58
trmancoit only brings something called opera unite to the browserNov 23 20:59
Ender2070awefulNov 23 21:01
Ender2070that sounds like a communist technologyNov 23 21:02
cubezzzeh?Nov 23 21:03
schestowitz?????? http://www.liliputing.com/2009/11/is-firefox-to-blame-for-netbook-overheating.html ?Nov 23 21:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   Is Firefox to blame for netbook overheating? .::. Size~: 24.81 KBNov 23 21:04
trmancoyeah, blame the browserNov 23 21:04
trmancotypicalNov 23 21:04
MinceRlolNov 23 21:04
trmancobrowser never use third party plugins or stuff like thatNov 23 21:05
trmancoso blame the browserNov 23 21:05
trmancoand yes, I'm talking about flashNov 23 21:05
trmancouses*Nov 23 21:05
Ender2070oh that netbookNov 23 21:06
Ender2070it turned out to be a gecko plugin, in opera that did itNov 23 21:06
cubezzza lot of computers run too hotNov 23 21:06
cubezzzbad engineeringNov 23 21:06
Ender2070Opera, "It'll stop burning when the fat lady sings"Nov 23 21:07
MinceRif a laptop overheats from a software issue then it's crapNov 23 21:07
cubezzzyes I tend to agreeNov 23 21:07
trmancoyeahNov 23 21:08
MinceR(perhaps not if it's a driver issue, but i wish they didn't take shortcuts that could endanger the hw that way)Nov 23 21:08
Ender2070it was a macbook airNov 23 21:08
MinceRthat explains itNov 23 21:08
trmancoit's gotta be prepared to handle max cpu utilization for exampleNov 23 21:08
MinceRcrApple products tend to smoke, burn and explodeNov 23 21:08
cubezzzsome cpus will under-clock if they get too hotNov 23 21:08
trmancoand leakNov 23 21:08
Ender2070"it wasnt the battery, it was FIREFOX! fire! get it!"Nov 23 21:08
trmancowhich ones? from amd?Nov 23 21:08
MinceR:)Nov 23 21:08
cubezzze.g. P4 mobility Nov 23 21:09
trmancooh, intelNov 23 21:09
Ender2070the P4 is the cause of global warmingNov 23 21:09
Ender2070turn that thing offNov 23 21:09
MinceRlolNov 23 21:09
*MinceR has a P4 machine turned on right nowNov 23 21:09
MinceRit's my TV set currently :>Nov 23 21:10
cubezzzso which CPU should we be using?Nov 23 21:10
Ender2070do you prefer to light your money on fire firstNov 23 21:10
Ender2070lolNov 23 21:10
Ender2070anything but p4Nov 23 21:10
cubezzzyeah well my ol' zaurus runs nice and coolNov 23 21:10
Ender2070you could even get netbooks faster than a p4Nov 23 21:11
Ender2070minus graphics card, maybeNov 23 21:11
cubezzzIntel Core i7 perhapsNov 23 21:14
MinceRi doubt an Atom N280 (1.66 GHz) is as fast as a P4 at 2.4 GHzNov 23 21:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Watching Miranda...after being reminded about it by a friend....on BBCiplayer....for a modern comedy, its not bad....Nov 23 21:23
cubezzztop cpu: Intel Core i7 940 @ 2.93 GHzNov 23 21:23
schestowitzhttp://intelligent-enterprise.informationweek.com/blog/archives/2009/11/google_chrome_o_1.html;jsessionid=1EIBM5QBPYYUXQE1GHOSKH4ATMY32JVN NC....Nov 23 21:24
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 21:24
cubezzztop video card: Radeon HD 5870Nov 23 21:25
schestowitzhttp://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Opera-10-10-closes-extremely-severe-hole-866803.htmlNov 23 21:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Opera 10.10 closes "extremely severe" hole - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 31.08 KBNov 23 21:25
schestowitzIntel calls its CPUs "Core" because it's taking a core dump on competitionNov 23 21:25
cubezzznow most power _efficient_ is a totally different storyNov 23 21:26
cubezzzthe ARM Cortex-A8 looks pretty goodNov 23 21:27
cubezzzok, now there is a A9Nov 23 21:28
cubezzzwhich I don't think you can actually buy yetNov 23 21:29
Diablo-D3you canNov 23 21:30
Diablo-D3cubezzz: and btwNov 23 21:30
Diablo-D3those are just designsNov 23 21:30
Diablo-D3they're not actual chipsNov 23 21:30
Diablo-D3ARM doesnt work that wayNov 23 21:30
cubezzzhmmmNov 23 21:30
Diablo-D3so one A8 isnt the same as anotherNov 23 21:30
cubezzzI think there's a 1 Ghz one from SamsungNov 23 21:33
Diablo-D3yes, but mhz isnt exactly the issueNov 23 21:34
Diablo-D3they're safe for several fab sizesNov 23 21:34
Diablo-D3the A9s can be fabbed at 32 and 20nm iircNov 23 21:34
Diablo-D3we cant even do 20 yetNov 23 21:35
Diablo-D3not only that, chips use increasingly less power the slower they getNov 23 21:35
Diablo-D3that 1ghz chip at 500mhz uses less than half the powerNov 23 21:36
cubezzzI see a lot of Intel Atom stuffNov 23 21:38
cubezzzoh well, got to figure this stuff out before I buy anythingNov 23 21:38
cubezzzI'm way overdue for a new boxNov 23 21:39
Diablo-D3atom sucks, btwNov 23 21:39
Diablo-D3its totally fucked upNov 23 21:39
Diablo-D3the cpu itself is fineishNov 23 21:39
Diablo-D3the northbridge USES TWICE THE FUCKING POWERNov 23 21:39
Diablo-D3otohNov 23 21:40
Diablo-D3you have armsNov 23 21:40
Diablo-D3which are socsNov 23 21:40
Diablo-D3they are their own northbridgeNov 23 21:40
Diablo-D3cubezzz: btwNov 23 21:41
Diablo-D3heres another interesting thingNov 23 21:41
Diablo-D3in the whole scheme of thingsNov 23 21:41
Diablo-D3cortex-a8 is arm12Nov 23 21:41
Diablo-D3but this doesn't directly mean arm11 is doomedNov 23 21:41
Diablo-D3companies can, and do, tweak the hell out of their designsNov 23 21:41
Diablo-D3there are current gen arm11s that meet or beat last gen a8sNov 23 21:42
Diablo-D3and are only a bit behind current gen a8sNov 23 21:42
Diablo-D3but back to the wattage issueNov 23 21:42
Diablo-D3a current gen arm anything powerful uses less than 10 watts.Nov 23 21:43
Diablo-D3a single core atom uses about 5 watts, and the 945 northbridge for the arms use about 15 watts or soNov 23 21:43
Diablo-D3so the entire arm platform is using less than 10, and the entire atom platform is using about 25Nov 23 21:44
Diablo-D3yet the arm, most likely, is kicking the shit out of the atom in cpu and gpu performanceNov 23 21:44
Diablo-D3for example, they have ARM solutions that can decode high bitrate 1080p h264Nov 23 21:45
Diablo-D3they're obviously not in smartphonesNov 23 21:45
Diablo-D3but its thereNov 23 21:45
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2009/11/23/harvey-and-anita/Nov 23 21:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: schestowitz.com  » Blog Archive   » Harvey and Anita: Best Couple in the World .::. Size~: 30.96 KBNov 23 21:53
Ender2070arm is pretty niceNov 23 21:53
schestowitzFor phones...Nov 23 21:57
schestowitzNot good for a super user's PCNov 23 21:57
schestowitzOr power [pun] userNov 23 21:57
schestowitzDoes Terrasoft still sell these under their new owner?Nov 23 21:58
MinceRhopefully they'll get powerful enough to compete with powerful PCsNov 23 21:58
MinceRi think i'd prefer ARM to x86 :>Nov 23 21:58
schestowitzhttp://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/161185,my-life-with-linux-day-3----the-daily-ups-and-downs-of-switching-to-open-source.aspxNov 23 22:05
phIRCe-BNcTitle: My life with Linux: Day 3 -  The daily ups and downs of switching to open source - News - PC Authority .::. Size~: 158.02 KBNov 23 22:05
schestowitzLinux virgins tries Linu,x impatientNov 23 22:05
schestowitzHe can't figure out why it's not like WindowsNov 23 22:05
schestowitzIt's like Windows indoctrination leave them with bad sectors/neuronsNov 23 22:06
schestowitz"Now, where's that "Start" button for a _shutdown_ thingie?"Nov 23 22:06
schestowitzI can totally see this guy installing Gentoo (when MinceR runs Chrome OS as his main platform)Nov 23 22:08
PetoKrauslolNov 23 22:09
PetoKrausthe best email address everNov 23 22:09
PetoKrausdeath--bunny@*mail.comNov 23 22:09
PetoKrauscustomer ^^Nov 23 22:10
schestowitzPetoKraus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RZU_rCvoTwNov 23 22:10
schestowitzNo idea if you know Trigger happyNov 23 22:10
PetoKrausthe music is Pj HarveyNov 23 22:11
MinceRlolNov 23 22:11
schestowitz*LOL* http://www.cracked.com/funny-2098-windows-7/Nov 23 22:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Windows 7 | Cracked.com .::. Size~: 41.58 KBNov 23 22:13
Ender2070why not just run the browser oneNov 23 22:14
schestowitzPetoKraus: I think it was on Channel 4 back when I was watching a lot of TVNov 23 22:15
schestowitzEnder2070: cause the OS too needs to have the kids' toy iconNov 23 22:15
schestowitzGoogle Chrome: http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl2/2/22864/21_2009/04c227c0fa99a888_simon.xlarge.jpgNov 23 22:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 22:16
schestowitzSophisticated!Nov 23 22:16
cubezzzok, so I'm looking for an ARM based device thenNov 23 22:17
Ender2070you can get thatNov 23 22:17
schestowitzThey gave Simon for Ballmer.... upon his birth to SMASH on the wallNov 23 22:19
schestowitzhttp://www.vijayforvictory.com/wp-content/plugins/nextgen-gallery/nggshow.php?pid=170&width=600&height=450&mode=Nov 23 22:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 22:20
schestowitzThe MinceR Law: if !browser, than fail();Nov 23 22:21
schestowitzhttp://lifehacker.com/5410807/opera-1010-with-unite-media-server-releasedNov 23 22:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Opera 10.10 with Unite Media Server Released - Opera - Lifehacker .::. Size~: 64.63 KBNov 23 22:21
*MinceR doesn't get itNov 23 22:22
trmanco"reinvent the web"Nov 23 22:28
trmancoget it?Nov 23 22:28
schestowitzGoogle only succeeds with things tied to search... books, mail (adverts), usenet....Nov 23 22:28
trmancoI mean, the browserNov 23 22:29
schestowitzNo, I meant about ChromeNov 23 22:29
schestowitzMinceR was very rightNov 23 22:29
schestowitzHe said last year that Google is stagnant everywhere but search. Android is picking up some steam now thoughNov 23 22:29
schestowitzI doubt Android is profitable, but the model there is different. Biz model is about moving people to GooglverseNov 23 22:30
schestowitzChrome OS I found vainNov 23 22:30
schestowitz"You don't need any apps..."Nov 23 22:30
schestowitz"You don't need HDD"Nov 23 22:30
schestowitz"We got it all for you... use our apps, our browser ('OS'), put your data on our hard drive and trust us...."Nov 23 22:31
schestowitzhttp://www.tgdaily.com/networking-features/44775-sun-introduces-qcloud-basedq-desktopNov 23 22:31
schestowitzSun is trying it too nowNov 23 22:31
schestowitzNC resurrected.Nov 23 22:31
MinceRoh, you wrote "browser" instead of "search" :)Nov 23 22:33
schestowitzOops.Nov 23 22:34
schestowitzThat'd be MozillaNov 23 22:34
schestowitzSutor's blog became boring after OOXML struggles... http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=4665Nov 23 22:37
phIRCe-BNcTitle: 3 days, 3 photos of Boston | Blog | Bob Sutor .::. Size~: 49.46 KBNov 23 22:37
schestowitzSo many blogs just 'die' after a while... microblogging partly to blameNov 23 22:37
schestowitzAnother thing is, so many people have blogs now so it's no longer a unique thing or something that's hip or new. Geocities is dead now, MySpace is dyingNov 23 22:38
schestowitzSooner or later not many people will even do microblogsNov 23 22:38
schestowitzhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-10396076-64.htmlNov 23 22:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Firefox: Heat and the CPU usage problem | Nanotech - The Circuits Blog - CNET News .::. Size~: 166.84 KBNov 23 22:42
schestowitzInternet Expoder: Vomit and the GPU stench issueNov 23 22:43
*Donna (i=6391a32e@gateway/web/freenode/x-nqmsdbkevhainfch) has joined #boycottnovellNov 23 22:46
schestowitzhttp://www.itworld.com/security/85698/where-google-chrome-security-fails-passwordNov 23 22:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Where Google Chrome security fails: the password | ITworld .::. Size~: 84.46 KBNov 23 22:46
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*Diablo-D3 has quit ("do coders dream of sheep()?")Nov 23 22:51
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schestowitzHeh. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz0D1KTAWfkNov 23 23:02
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cubezzzok, saw the Star trek movie, hrmmmNov 23 23:16
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellNov 23 23:18
_goblinsort of sci fi here....Nov 23 23:24
_goblinhere is a site talking about "dark" and "light"Nov 23 23:24
_goblinI assume its a joke..Nov 23 23:25
_goblin"If you were to swim just below the surface of a lake, you would encounter ample brightness. However, if you were to slowly swim deeper and deeper, you would notice it getting darker and darker. When you reached a sufficient depth, you would be in total darkness. This is because the heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the lighter light floats at the top. That is, in fact, why it is called LIGHT. "Nov 23 23:25
tessierhttp://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2009/11/23/9927055.aspxNov 23 23:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Old New Thing : Can I talk to that William fellow? He was so helpful .::. Size~: 45.59 KBNov 23 23:25
tessierROFLNov 23 23:25
tessierI love the first commentNov 23 23:25
_goblinIm reading up on "faster than dark drives"Nov 23 23:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Defining The Speed Of Dark : http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/jan/article385.html ...surely this is a joke...Nov 23 23:29
cubezzzthe hoth scene was really stupidNov 23 23:30
cubezzzand Scotty getting stuck in the water tube was stupidNov 23 23:30
cubezzzC- rating :)Nov 23 23:31
cubezzzderivativeNov 23 23:33
schestowitzfewa: Amy Goodman was arrested??!?!Nov 23 23:33
trmancohttp://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=3372Nov 23 23:38
trmancoLOLNov 23 23:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: TechRepublic Blogs: For IT professionals, by IT professionals .::. Size~: 83.76 KBNov 23 23:39
tessiercubezzz: Yes, I was quite disappointed with that whole film.Nov 23 23:39
trmancocopying windows uh?Nov 23 23:39
tessier_goblin: Lightbulbs do not produce light so much as they suck dark.Nov 23 23:39
trmancothat windows7 taskbar sure looks my kde 4 one... strangeNov 23 23:39
trmancowindows has no virtual desktops by default.... 1 desktop stinksNov 23 23:40
_goblinspeed of dark =0 (IMO) since its merely an absence of light...Nov 23 23:42
_goblinlight can be measured as a time taken from a - b ...imoNov 23 23:42
_goblinit was quite a good interesting theory to have a means of travelling in a medium that exists everywhere there is no light...Nov 23 23:43
_goblintotally rubbish of course but would probably make a good movie.Nov 23 23:43
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MinceRhttp://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/oninosensi/system-sm.jpgNov 23 23:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBNov 23 23:46
schestowitzGive Me Liberty < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI >Nov 23 23:48
cubezzzI can't seem to find ARM based netbookNov 23 23:48
cubezzzeverything is Intel AtomNov 23 23:48
tessierARM based netbook is still not really on the market yetNov 23 23:54
tessierLast week I did put my hands on an in-development netbookNov 23 23:54
tessierLinux had just been booted on it for the first time the previous day.Nov 23 23:54
tessierJust the kernel and shell. Still lots of work to be done on drivers and distro for ARM etc.Nov 23 23:55
tessierIt will be next year before it is ready.Nov 23 23:55
*cubezzz nodsNov 23 23:58
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