IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: December 26th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #Phone Platforms May Converge http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/software-development-predictions-2010-464		Dec 26 00:02
phIRCe-local	Title: Software development predictions for 2010 \| Developer World - InfoWorld .::. Size~: 72.09 KB	Dec 26 00:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia 's Linux Internet #Tablet in Review After 2 Months http://ur1.ca/ijem http://ur1.ca/ijen		Dec 26 00:04
phIRCe-local	Title: Image Gallery: A look at the Nokia N900 Maemo 5 device after two months of use \| ZDNet Photo Gallery .::. Size~: 47.45 KB	Dec 26 00:04
phIRCe-local	Title: Nokia Brings Forward N900 Contract Release Date \| UKPRwire .::. Size~: 17.78 KB	Dec 26 00:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android / #Linux Expected to Thrive, More Devices Appear http://ur1.ca/ijeq http://ur1.ca/ijer http://ur1.ca/ijes.		Dec 26 00:05
phIRCe-local	Title: Forrester: Google Android Smartphones to Take 10% of Market in 2010 - CIO.com - Business Technology Leadership .::. Size~: 75.57 KB	Dec 26 00:05
phIRCe-local	Title: Linux News: Mobile: Moto XT701 - aka 'Sholes' - Surfaces in China .::. Size~: 58.12 KB	Dec 26 00:05
phIRCe-local	Title: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 2.27 KB	Dec 26 00:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OLPC Sub-notebooks Expected to Support Only GNU #Linux http://ur1.ca/ijet http://ur1.ca/iemt		Dec 26 00:06
phIRCe-local	Title: The $75 Future Computer - Forbes.com .::. Size~: 29.23 KB	Dec 26 00:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free/Libre #Blender Produces More Films http://ur1.ca/ijew		Dec 26 00:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] The Correct Use of Soap says "I was recorded in 1980" in every note. But it's still a great piece of post-punk.		Dec 26 00:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU Helps People with Disabilities http://www.deccanherald.com/content/42411/up-against-odds.html		Dec 26 00:37
phIRCe-local	Title: Up against odds .::. Size~: 65.11 KB	Dec 26 00:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Win Against SLAPP-Type Censorship, Loss in Italy and Vimeo http://ur1.ca/ijgh http://ur1.ca/ijgi http://ur1.ca/ijgj		Dec 26 00:58
phIRCe-local	Title: The Need for H.R. 4364 \| Federal Anti-SLAPP Project .::. Size~: 21.45 KB	Dec 26 00:58
phIRCe-local	Title: At last ... the 1709 Copyright Blog: Italian Courts, latest score: Berlusconi 1; YouTube 0 .::. Size~: 79.74 KB	Dec 26 00:58
phIRCe-local	Title: Why you will regret using Vimeo. « Boagworld .::. Size~: 161.22 KB	Dec 26 00:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ofcom Offer Free Spectrum http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/22/60ghz/		Dec 26 00:59
phIRCe-local	Title: Ofcom sets 60GHz free • The Register .::. Size~: 26.7 KB	Dec 26 00:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Reduce Innovation, Shows Another Study http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index.php?perm=593056000000002084		Dec 26 01:04
phIRCe-local	Title: Against Monopoly .::. Size~: 23.58 KB	Dec 26 01:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] First #Video of "Open Source For America" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9x7aAvz_w8		Dec 26 01:09
*CyberArch has quit ("http://en.flossmanuals.net/ - Help document the world of free software!")		Dec 26 01:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A variety of structural changes in the Boycott Novell Web site. http://ur1.ca/ijie Suggestions welcome		Dec 26 01:45
phIRCe-local	Title: New Resource Pages \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 106.19 KB	Dec 26 01:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Nokia Criticised for Patent Attack, Interim In Re #Bilski Rule Does Not Go Far Enough http://ur1.ca/ijja #swpat		Dec 26 02:07
phIRCe-local	Title: Nokia Criticised for Patent Attack, Interim In Re Bilski Rule Does Not Go Far Enough \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 111.03 KB	Dec 26 02:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft ’s Ally #Fortify is Fortifying Fear of #FreeSoftware , Just Like #OpenLogic and #BlackDuck http://ur1.ca/ijjy		Dec 26 02:31
phIRCe-local	Title: Microsofts Ally Fortify is Fortifying Fear of Free Software, Just Like OpenLogic and Black Duck \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 110.95 KB	Dec 26 02:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ODF Roundup: More Developer Support, But More #FUD as Well http://boycottnovell.com/2009/12/25/odf-support-and-odf-disinformation/		Dec 26 03:44
phIRCe-local	Title: ODF Roundup: More Developer Support, But More FUD as Well \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 127.8 KB	Dec 26 03:44
schestowitz	http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1802994/how_do_you_improve_mammogram_accuracy_add_noise/index.html Weird	Dec 26 03:49
phIRCe-local	Title: How Do You Improve Mammogram Accuracy? Add Noise - Science News - redOrbit .::. Size~: 30.12 KB	Dec 26 03:49
schestowitz	Criminal made "person of the year"... only when press is totally corrupt. http://www.jrdeputyaccountant.com/2009/12/financial-times-names-lloyd-blankfein.html	Dec 26 03:52
phIRCe-local	Title: Jr Deputy Accountant: Financial Times Names Lloyd Blankfein Person of the Year .::. Size~: 160.44 KB	Dec 26 03:52
schestowitz	http://www.gnu.org/graphics/jesus-cartoon.html	Dec 26 03:54
phIRCe-local	Title: Cartoon - Free Software Foundation (FSF) .::. Size~: 6.8 KB	Dec 26 03:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @iyunkateus http://www.fsf.org/appeal/2009 - "Defining the contours of freedom" #fsf #cc		Dec 26 03:58
phIRCe-local	Title: Folder listing - Free Software Foundation .::. Size~: 29.83 KB	Dec 26 03:58
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: like I said earlier	Dec 26 03:59
Diablo-D3	hitler was also person of the year once	Dec 26 03:59
Diablo-D3	not because hes a good guy, but because he was the guy everyone was talking about	Dec 26 03:59
Diablo-D3	person of the year is usually given to someone who _really_ makes the news.	Dec 26 04:00
Diablo-D3	good or bad.	Dec 26 04:00
Diablo-D3	so yes, I think he should have gotten it	Dec 26 04:00
Diablo-D3	his actions changed the course of society.	Dec 26 04:00
Diablo-D3	actually, thanks to him, the federal reserve will probably be severely damaged or killed off entirely	Dec 26 04:00
Diablo-D3	so hes sort of an anti-hero in a way	Dec 26 04:01
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: wait	Dec 26 04:01
Diablo-D3	you're not talking about times magazine	Dec 26 04:01
Diablo-D3	nm	Dec 26 04:02
Diablo-D3	I dont know who that douchebag is	Dec 26 04:02
Diablo-D3	sounds like some jew	Dec 26 04:02
schestowitz	No, not Time	Dec 26 04:03
schestowitz	anyway, gn. 4am here	Dec 26 04:03
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balzac	-_-	Dec 26 04:30
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tessier	Diablo-D3: What douchebag?	Dec 26 06:21
tessier	oh...Lloyd Blankfein.	Dec 26 06:21
tessier	Diablo-D3: Yes, he is a Jew for whatever it matters.	Dec 26 06:27
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fewa_	argg is there no way to buy raw flash	Dec 26 07:45
fewa_	everything sold has this block-device emulation insanity	Dec 26 07:46
fewa_	including the very expensive SSD drives	Dec 26 07:46
fewa_	they make this nice piece of hardware and then they cripple it with a legacy and ill-suited communication stream	Dec 26 07:46
oiaohm	Its not insanity can you name any reason for it fewa_ I guess not.	Dec 26 07:55
oiaohm	Write levelining in one fewa_	Dec 26 07:55
fewa_	oiaohm, hardware should not do things that can be better done in software	Dec 26 07:55
fewa_	and that limit the possibilities of the hardware	Dec 26 07:55
oiaohm	Write leveling is not ideal done in software.	Dec 26 07:55
fewa_	under that guiess you would say that computers should have the OS soldered on	Dec 26 07:56
fewa_	cause without an OS it doesn't work	Dec 26 07:56
fewa_	UBIFS does write leveling fine	Dec 26 07:56
fewa_	*UBI	Dec 26 07:56
fewa_	far better than any block-emulation	Dec 26 07:56
fewa_	that obstructs using the hardware	Dec 26 07:56
fewa_	and provides a false interop layer	Dec 26 07:57
oiaohm	Smart detection of failures as well.	Dec 26 07:57
fewa_	same reason people supported BIOSes	Dec 26 07:57
oiaohm	UBI also has it weaknesses. Its write leveling does not intergrate with diagnostics.	Dec 26 07:58
oiaohm	Ie a non changable block due to a failure might be still usable if it contains the right data fewa_	Dec 26 07:59
oiaohm	There are very good reasons for have some of this stuff hardware side fewa_	Dec 26 08:00
fewa_	but no need to stay with BS block layer	Dec 26 08:00
fewa_	put ware leveling hardware and then still provide a flash interface	Dec 26 08:00
fewa_	running SSD over SATA is stupid	Dec 26 08:00
oiaohm	Currently there is not standard to do that fewa_	Dec 26 08:01
fewa_	should run over PCI-E	Dec 26 08:01
fewa_	or other bus	Dec 26 08:01
oiaohm	Some SSD exist for PCI-E connect.	Dec 26 08:01
oiaohm	But SSD over Sata does have a valid place with some forms of raid controllers mixjng solid and disk.	Dec 26 08:02
oiaohm	There are reasons for the evil fewa_	Dec 26 08:03
oiaohm	Of course lot of people just needing 1 solid state drive there is most likely no advantage to using Sata over a PCI-E interconnect	Dec 26 08:04
Diablo-D3	um	Dec 26 08:11
Diablo-D3	theres usually zero advantage	Dec 26 08:11
Diablo-D3	you know why?	Dec 26 08:11
Diablo-D3	a lot of those cards are faking sata controllers	Dec 26 08:11
oiaohm	Depends on the card.	Dec 26 08:16
oiaohm	Some fake sata and also provide direct.	Dec 26 08:16
oiaohm	Ok fake sata and pata so some OS's can install.	Dec 26 08:17
oiaohm	ie windows.	Dec 26 08:17
Diablo-D3	ie ANYTHING	Dec 26 08:18
Diablo-D3	if it requires special drivers at all, basically give up booting an OS on it	Dec 26 08:18
Diablo-D3	but its all really stupid	Dec 26 08:18
Diablo-D3	it doesn't gain you anything	Dec 26 08:18
Diablo-D3	and they cost a lot more per gb than normal SSD	Dec 26 08:19
Diablo-D3	like, for example	Dec 26 08:21
Diablo-D3	many of them have 4x pci-e 1.0 interfaces	Dec 26 08:22
Diablo-D3	that gives you 1gbyte/sec	Dec 26 08:22
Diablo-D3	with a command latency in the same neighborhood of sata/300	Dec 26 08:23
Diablo-D3	however, a single sata-300 link can max out at 300mbyte/sec	Dec 26 08:24
Diablo-D3	not only that, theres no card shipping that can do 1gbyte/sec	Dec 26 08:24
Diablo-D3	at least no conventional card	Dec 26 08:25
Diablo-D3	like, fusion-io's shit are not conventional, however small	Dec 26 08:26
Diablo-D3	theirs can do 750mbyte/sec	Dec 26 08:27
Diablo-D3	however, they hold 320gb and cost a crapload	Dec 26 08:27
Diablo-D3	for what you pay for that, I can buy 3 conventional 128gb drives in sata formfactor, and end up with more space and the same speed	Dec 26 08:28
Diablo-D3	and not waste a valuable slot	Dec 26 08:28
fewa_	oiaohm, the PCI-E SSDs are SATA raids	Dec 26 08:31
fewa_	how do i correctly format a SD card?	Dec 26 08:32
fewa_	to not get horribly slow speeds due to bad blopck emulation	Dec 26 08:33
fewa_	thats what im griping about	Dec 26 08:33
fewa_	if it was just mtd i could p[ut ubifs on it	Dec 26 08:33
fewa_	and it would be much faster	Dec 26 08:33
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fewa_	and ubifs uses much smarter caching than any unaware FTL-hard drive FS	Dec 26 08:37
fewa_	combo	Dec 26 08:37
fewa_	having the file system made and aware of flash is much more intelligent	Dec 26 08:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] #i4i wins against #Microsoft again!! http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20091223075122254		Dec 26 08:38
phIRCe-local	Title: David and Goliath II: i4i Wins (Again) over Microsoft - ConsortiumInfo.org .::. Size~: 44.88 KB	Dec 26 08:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] #i4i wins against #Microsoft again!! http://tinyurl.com/y9np2ht		Dec 26 08:39
phIRCe-local	Title: David and Goliath II: i4i Wins (Again) over Microsoft - ConsortiumInfo.org .::. Size~: 44.88 KB	Dec 26 08:39
Diablo-D3	fewa_: format it in the device its meant to be used with	Dec 26 08:50
fewa_	i did that	Dec 26 08:51
fewa_	but tis the offsets	Dec 26 08:51
fewa_	if you dont set the offsets right you torture the FTL and have horrible performance	Dec 26 08:51
fewa_	for non-fat32 filesystems	Dec 26 08:51
Diablo-D3	you really shouldnt be using non-fat32 on a SD card.	Dec 26 08:52
Diablo-D3	nothing supports anything else but some fat variant	Dec 26 08:52
oiaohm	http://lwn.net/Articles/305740/ I am not sure of OSD would make you any happier.	Dec 26 08:52
fewa_	exactly, block emulation is BS	Dec 26 08:52
phIRCe-local	Title: Linux and object storage devices [LWN.net] .::. Size~: 37.65 KB	Dec 26 08:52
fewa_	it makes shit suck	Dec 26 08:53
fewa_	im not using for file transfer	Dec 26 08:53
Diablo-D3	SD is for tiny devices	Dec 26 08:53
Diablo-D3	its not meant for real men.	Dec 26 08:53
fewa_	but xD provides raw flash access	Dec 26 08:53
fewa_	why cant that be the dominent flash format?	Dec 26 08:53
fewa_	or something similar	Dec 26 08:53
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] I got fever for past 3 days,fever is ok after a vein injection. I am movin to chennai,so I may not come online for some weeks, see all soon		Dec 26 08:54
oiaohm	Idea to replace the block mess is the OSD option fewa_	Dec 26 08:54
fewa_	link?	Dec 26 08:54
fewa_	link?	Dec 26 08:54
oiaohm	The lwn.net	Dec 26 08:54
oiaohm	before	Dec 26 08:54
fewa_	ughhh	Dec 26 08:55
fewa_	I dont see the hardware of NAND flash changing any time soon	Dec 26 08:56
fewa_	why cant software deal directly with the hardware?	Dec 26 08:56
fewa_	* the OS deal directly with hardware	Dec 26 08:56
fewa_	and file systems, or layers like UBI be developed directly for that	Dec 26 08:56
oiaohm	That started disappearing with smart in harddrives fewa_	Dec 26 08:56
fewa_	its POSIX that is the standard	Dec 26 08:56
fewa_	hard drives are differnt	Dec 26 08:56
oiaohm	Ie before smart in harddrives OS were required to find bad sectors.	Dec 26 08:56
fewa_	yes i know	Dec 26 08:57
oiaohm	After smart the smart system takes care of it.	Dec 26 08:57
fewa_	I can see reason for that	Dec 26 08:57
oiaohm	Problem is designers have kept on expanding that idea until we end up with OSD>	Dec 26 08:57
fewa_	but it could be done cheaper in the OS	Dec 26 08:57
fewa_	but anyways this is about NAND	Dec 26 08:57
oiaohm	smart works while OS is booting fewa_	Dec 26 08:58
fewa_	putting the filesystem in the hardware seems stupid	Dec 26 08:58
fewa_	and its anti-freedom	Dec 26 08:58
fewa_	"The OSD designers decided to offload another task from the host systems: security. "	Dec 26 08:59
oiaohm	I don't like the idea but OSD has a better chance of performing well compared to emulating a old school harddrive.	Dec 26 08:59
fewa_	software developers are hiding from Linux	Dec 26 08:59
fewa_	they are trying to find new ways to hide their code	Dec 26 08:59
fewa_	stagnate development	Dec 26 08:59
fewa_	that article isn't about storage devices	Dec 26 09:00
oiaohm	OSD also has the option of beening tidier over network compared to block based emulation.	Dec 26 09:00
fewa_	its about databases on a chip	Dec 26 09:00
fewa_	database layer	Dec 26 09:00
fewa_	no reason OSD couldn't be a layer used for network communication of within a filesystem	Dec 26 09:00
fewa_	but making it the "hardware" layer of communication is bad	Dec 26 09:01
fewa_	just a secretive way of hiding code from Linux	Dec 26 09:01
fewa_	and making the electronics more expensive	Dec 26 09:01
fewa_	especially with NAND flash that can be so simple	Dec 26 09:01
oiaohm	The block system emulation already hides code from Linux fewa_	Dec 26 09:01
fewa_	oiaohm, and i am railing against it	Dec 26 09:01
fewa_	NAND flash can be exposed directly	Dec 26 09:02
fewa_	and it works well	Dec 26 09:02
fewa_	why cant it be raw NAND over something like PCI-E	Dec 26 09:02
fewa_	?	Dec 26 09:02
oiaohm	Really it does need something like a smart overlay to detect and remap accordingly.	Dec 26 09:02
fewa_	or UBI over PCI-E	Dec 26 09:02
oiaohm	Something like the way 386 does its memory map fewa_	Dec 26 09:03
fewa_	where the hardware chip provides UBI	Dec 26 09:03
oiaohm	So failing areas can be maped out.	Dec 26 09:03
fewa_	but "hardware" should not implament database software	Dec 26 09:03
fewa_	and encryption	Dec 26 09:03
oiaohm	harddrives already do encryption.	Dec 26 09:04
fewa_	security has always been the stupidest thing to export	Dec 26 09:04
oiaohm	Ok crackable encryption but they do.	Dec 26 09:04
fewa_	ithas been screwed up a incredible amount of times	Dec 26 09:04
fewa_	oiaohm, thats hard drives, not flash drives	Dec 26 09:04
oiaohm	There are flash drives on market with inbuilt encryption.	Dec 26 09:05
fewa_	and its stupid to have multiple encryption chips all over a computer	Dec 26 09:05
fewa_	thats what you get when you put software layers into hardware	Dec 26 09:05
fewa_	duplication of processing	Dec 26 09:05
oiaohm	What is the main advantage of duplication of processing fewa_	Dec 26 09:05
fewa_	and excessive chips	Dec 26 09:05
fewa_	oiaohm, duplication of bugs	Dec 26 09:05
fewa_	and more problems	Dec 26 09:06
oiaohm	Main advantage is less bottle necks.	Dec 26 09:06
oiaohm	Of course there is a price to pay.	Dec 26 09:06
fewa_	one aes module in a chip can do tons	Dec 26 09:06
fewa_	plenty	Dec 26 09:06
oiaohm	Nothing is free. Everything is trading one for another.	Dec 26 09:06
fewa_	for any load	Dec 26 09:06
fewa_	and many storage devices	Dec 26 09:07
oiaohm	Pushing everything to one aes chip means all the data to decode has to travel there.	Dec 26 09:07
fewa_	oiaohm, it already is there, in the CPU	Dec 26 09:07
oiaohm	What about drive to drive data transfers avoiding cpu fewa_	Dec 26 09:07
fewa_	they just dont want storage turning into RAM	Dec 26 09:07
fewa_	super commodity	Dec 26 09:08
fewa_	they want to accessorize it to extract more rent	Dec 26 09:08
fewa_	and lock people in	Dec 26 09:08
fewa_	but thats what it should be	Dec 26 09:08
fewa_	nand slots on the motherboard	Dec 26 09:09
fewa_	similar form-factor to DDR chips	Dec 26 09:09
fewa_	simple, cheap, straight forward	Dec 26 09:10
fewa_	no excessive software in hardware layers	Dec 26 09:10
fewa_	x86 motherboards could provide a chip so windows could see it as a block device	Dec 26 09:11
fewa_	but that would not be mandatory	Dec 26 09:11
oiaohm	http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308&Itemid=60 Seen this puppy fewa_	Dec 26 09:11
oiaohm	If they decides on a card format they could do that with flash as well fewa_	Dec 26 09:11
Diablo-D3	fewa_: uh	Dec 26 09:12
Diablo-D3	what?	Dec 26 09:12
fewa_	doesn't that seem much more rational?	Dec 26 09:12
Diablo-D3	can I have some of those drugs?	Dec 26 09:12
Diablo-D3	if I want a cheap flash card that works normally, I use a CF card	Dec 26 09:12
Diablo-D3	CF natively does ATA	Dec 26 09:12
fewa_	Diablo-D3, thats a chip	Dec 26 09:12
Diablo-D3	you use a mechanical adapter to plug it into a normal IDE slot	Dec 26 09:12
fewa_	that does that	Dec 26 09:12
Diablo-D3	fewa_: nope	Dec 26 09:13
fewa_	emulates a block device	Dec 26 09:13
Diablo-D3	CF natively does ATA.	Dec 26 09:13
Diablo-D3	read the spec.	Dec 26 09:13
fewa_	its standard NAND inside	Dec 26 09:13
Diablo-D3	CF natively does ATA.	Dec 26 09:13
Diablo-D3	read the spec.	Dec 26 09:13
fewa_	hmm	Dec 26 09:13
oiaohm	Really the big issue with most flash modules is that section breaks you have to replace the whole lot.	Dec 26 09:14
Diablo-D3	Now, you _can_ get adapters that do -> sata	Dec 26 09:14
Diablo-D3	they have a chip... its a normal everyday ide to sata bridge.	Dec 26 09:14
fewa_	but isnt there standard NAND in a CF card?	Dec 26 09:14
fewa_	and then a chip that makes it behave like ATA?	Dec 26 09:14
oiaohm	Really I would like to see something like this for flash > http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=308&Itemid=60	Dec 26 09:15
fewa_	oiaohm, or directly on motherboards	Dec 26 09:15
Diablo-D3	fewa_: um, it doesnt even fucking matter how it works	Dec 26 09:15
fewa_	currently its soldered into mobile stuff	Dec 26 09:15
Diablo-D3	_all_ cards have some controller in them	Dec 26 09:15
fewa_	they just need a port for it	Dec 26 09:15
fewa_	Diablo-D3, not raw flash	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	they dont make raw flash cards	Dec 26 09:16
fewa_	xD has hardly anything	Dec 26 09:16
fewa_	no wear leveling, etc	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	xD is dead	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	the only time you still see raw flash in production devices is embedded right on the board.	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	also, jesus fucking christ	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	quit with the ram drive shit	Dec 26 09:16
fewa_	needs a socket	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	its dumb, its retarded, and they've been making stupid shit for years.	Dec 26 09:16
fewa_	thats not me	Dec 26 09:16
Diablo-D3	oh	Dec 26 09:16
fewa_	its oiaohm	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: you suck as well	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	I was saying that flash should have a ram-like form factor	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	and standard slot	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	no, it shouldn't.	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	its a storage device	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	it should _be_ a storage device	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	but its a chip	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	it should act like one.	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	not a hard drive	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	I dont care what the fuck it is	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	it should act like a chip	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	its a storage device	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	we have standards	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	not a moving part device	Dec 26 09:17
Diablo-D3	now, ask me again in 15 years	Dec 26 09:17
fewa_	people are still thinking hard drives	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	Ill give you a different answer	Dec 26 09:18
fewa_	its idiotic	Dec 26 09:18
fewa_	flash is differn't	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	fewa_: yes but	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	flash isnt different	Dec 26 09:18
fewa_	you can put it on a chip just like ram	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	its still the same shit.	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	hard drives are, underneath, exactly the same	Dec 26 09:18
fewa_	and not have all these stupid emulation layers	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	you know why we dont see them that way?	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	they have a very intelligent controller on it	Dec 26 09:18
fewa_	Diablo-D3, but there are so many complications due to the hardware	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	fewa_: wrong.	Dec 26 09:18
fewa_	NAND is much simpler hardware wise	Dec 26 09:18
Diablo-D3	raw flash is also much harder to use efficiently	Dec 26 09:19
fewa_	vis-a-vis hard drive needs controler, not flash	Dec 26 09:19
Diablo-D3	SATA has been designed to be easy to talk to controller hardware	Dec 26 09:19
fewa_	or at least something more streamlined	Dec 26 09:19
Diablo-D3	SATA _is_ very streamlined!	Dec 26 09:19
Diablo-D3	what the fuck is wrong with the people in this channel.	Dec 26 09:19
Diablo-D3	Its amazing.	Dec 26 09:19
oiaohm	Really flash still need a controller of some form to maintain leveling.	Dec 26 09:19
Diablo-D3	its like Roy emits some sort of RDF.	Dec 26 09:19
Diablo-D3	flash needs some sort of controller as so you can control whats under the controller	Dec 26 09:20
Diablo-D3	they have RAID chips, for example, that do RAID and you'd never know from the host	Dec 26 09:20
fewa_	but not block emulation	Dec 26 09:20
fewa_	Diablo-D3, oh, i gues you could do mtd over sata	Dec 26 09:20
Diablo-D3	fewa_: you dont want block emulation	Dec 26 09:20
Diablo-D3	its not efficient	Dec 26 09:20
fewa_	sata not problem, block is	Dec 26 09:20
fewa_	hardware vendors need to provide mtd sata drivers	Dec 26 09:21
fewa_	for ssds	Dec 26 09:21
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: also with the ram drive I was more looking at it from a repairable point of view. Flash done in a form of controller + cards. If some thing was wrong in the controller the controller could be replaced. Like what can be done with current harddrives.	Dec 26 09:21
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: devices do not work that way.	Dec 26 09:22
fewa_	oiaohm, yes, nand chips should be like ram	Dec 26 09:22
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if you wanted that, guess what happens?	Dec 26 09:22
Diablo-D3	your shit costs 5 times more.	Dec 26 09:22
fewa_	Diablo-D3, true	Dec 26 09:23
Diablo-D3	So, please, stop doing drugs.	Dec 26 09:23
fewa_	endless failover is a drug	Dec 26 09:23
fewa_	just get more machines	Dec 26 09:23
oiaohm	Cost vs means to recover data. Cost is also a factor of volume as well Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:23
fewa_	overengineering	Dec 26 09:23
fewa_	but couldn't the controlers handle differnt storage levels?	Dec 26 09:24
fewa_	so why not put nand controler on motherboard and have NAND slots?	Dec 26 09:24
Diablo-D3	=\|	Dec 26 09:24
fewa_	just like ram	Dec 26 09:24
Diablo-D3	that is the most stupidest thing I've ever heard.	Dec 26 09:24
Diablo-D3	if I wanted RAID, I'd, well, already have RAID like I do now.	Dec 26 09:24
oiaohm	RAID is not 100 percent Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:25
fewa_	lol	Dec 26 09:25
fewa_	Diablo-D3, i don't see how that is material	Dec 26 09:25
fewa_	and oiaohm lol, ur falling into your overengineering	Dec 26 09:26
oiaohm	Not really.	Dec 26 09:26
fewa_	he didn't say why he wanted RAID 1	Dec 26 09:26
fewa_	*RAID	Dec 26 09:26
fewa_	and anyways	Dec 26 09:26
oiaohm	I have seen the results of power surge caused inside a comptuer.	Dec 26 09:26
oiaohm	All controllers on all drives dead.	Dec 26 09:27
fewa_	flash RAID doesn't make sense	Dec 26 09:27
oiaohm	Raid is no help.	Dec 26 09:27
fewa_	its not a disk	Dec 26 09:27
fewa_	that was the whole point of RAID	Dec 26 09:27
Diablo-D3	its a device that can fail.	Dec 26 09:27
Diablo-D3	they have the equivalent for RAM on enterprise servers as well	Dec 26 09:27
fewa_	duplication	Dec 26 09:28
fewa_	but not "RAID"	Dec 26 09:28
oiaohm	Raid mirror is designed to protect against failure by duplicating.	Dec 26 09:28
Diablo-D3	why automatically ignore other RAID levels?	Dec 26 09:28
Diablo-D3	it sure is troll in here.	Dec 26 09:28
fewa_	RAID 5 is duplication	Dec 26 09:28
Diablo-D3	RAID 5 is not duplication in that sense	Dec 26 09:28
fewa_	not mirroring, but duplication	Dec 26 09:28
Diablo-D3	no, its just parity.	Dec 26 09:29
fewa_	thats a form of duplication	Dec 26 09:29
Diablo-D3	its a form of failure protection.	Dec 26 09:29
Diablo-D3	the parity blocks do not contain any data that exists in the data blocks.	Dec 26 09:29
Diablo-D3	ergo, it is not duplication of any kind	Dec 26 09:29
Diablo-D3	its error correction.	Dec 26 09:30
fewa_	a image negative does notcontain any of the colours of the final picture	Dec 26 09:30
oiaohm	Main reason I would like the split between controller and flash higher up. Is in the hope that if something goes bad with power supply the controller wears it and dies but leaves the flash cards recoverable or at least gettable to.	Dec 26 09:31
Diablo-D3	fewa_: yet its the same size of the original.	Dec 26 09:31
Diablo-D3	raid 5 only uses one more disk no matter how many you have in your array.	Dec 26 09:31
oiaohm	I have had to deal with USB flash drives with embed in chip controllers when controller has gone nuts it basically game over.	Dec 26 09:32
oiaohm	This is not really over enginering is design in the hope of having a sporting chance.	Dec 26 09:33
Diablo-D3	this is why you do not store your data in one location	Dec 26 09:34
oiaohm	That is always the plan but when thing go wrong plans don't always happen Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:35
Diablo-D3	Thats the fault of the people who didnt want the data very badly.	Dec 26 09:35
oiaohm	I have seen sets of failures lead to data not being able to get away from location before bad happens.	Dec 26 09:36
oiaohm	Remember sod law always wins Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:36
Diablo-D3	if you have data realtime streamed to a second location	Dec 26 09:41
Diablo-D3	the likelyhood of irreparable loss happening is low	Dec 26 09:42
oiaohm	Last time I saw that screwed was bushfire	Dec 26 09:42
oiaohm	Drive repair become kind critical. Data links were taken down before processing stopped.	Dec 26 09:43
oiaohm	Mind you most flash drives are not built to live past that either.	Dec 26 09:43
oiaohm	Time before that ground cables were ripped up places without sat uplinks were cooked. Then I have seen sats off line due to incomming solar flares.	Dec 26 09:45
oiaohm	Basically no matter how you plan to get data off site sod law can get you. Because failure is still possiable Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:46
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: you do realize you can house data storage in fire proof safes, right?	Dec 26 09:47
Diablo-D3	everything nature can do, I really can do better.	Dec 26 09:47
Diablo-D3	you have to start getting into situations where no one gives a fuck about the data anymore because the world is ending	Dec 26 09:47
oiaohm	That is as long as the bushfire was not like the past one. Hotter than anyone had ever seen.	Dec 26 09:47
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: yes, you live in a strange weird country	Dec 26 09:48
oiaohm	There has been equal in places in the USA as well Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:48
Diablo-D3	see, in the US, we can build completely underground facilities	Dec 26 09:48
Diablo-D3	the land could be burning, and people in the facility would never know	Dec 26 09:48
oiaohm	Some exist here. I have seen them have other bad and evil failures.	Dec 26 09:49
Diablo-D3	Im not saying failures wont happen	Dec 26 09:49
oiaohm	Like flooding Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:49
Diablo-D3	Im saying all failures can be delt with appropriately.	Dec 26 09:49
oiaohm	Under facilities flooded not fun.	Dec 26 09:49
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: flooding is not an issue for a water tight facility.	Dec 26 09:49
oiaohm	You hope water tight.	Dec 26 09:49
Diablo-D3	It doesnt need to be perfectly water tight	Dec 26 09:50
oiaohm	One here fault line no one knew about decide to move.	Dec 26 09:50
Diablo-D3	it just needs to shut down appropriately.	Dec 26 09:50
Diablo-D3	this takes mere seconds.	Dec 26 09:50
oiaohm	So killing the water tight	Dec 26 09:50
oiaohm	Water that filled was high salt Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:50
Diablo-D3	so?	Dec 26 09:50
oiaohm	Metal eating	Dec 26 09:51
Diablo-D3	you trash all the equipment and start over.	Dec 26 09:51
Diablo-D3	[04:44:17] <Diablo-D3> you trash all the equipment and start over.	Dec 26 09:51
oiaohm	Data was still recoveralbe from the drives in that mess.	Dec 26 09:51
Diablo-D3	see, thats where you went wrong oiaohm	Dec 26 09:52
tessier	OSD fits well with HTTP	Dec 26 09:52
tessier	POSIX filesystems do not.	Dec 26 09:52
Diablo-D3	you assumed data needed to be recovered	Dec 26 09:52
Diablo-D3	instant offsite duplication should prevent the need.	Dec 26 09:52
oiaohm	This case it did it was recording data under ground.	Dec 26 09:52
oiaohm	Offsite link area was first to flood Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:53
oiaohm	Yes Sod law has a bad habit of winning.	Dec 26 09:53
oiaohm	If you run into sod law stronger the data storage devices less data loss.	Dec 26 09:54
oiaohm	Of course you try to design everything so sod law cannot operate.	Dec 26 09:55
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Diablo-D3	oiaohm: I think you misunderstood.	Dec 26 09:56
Diablo-D3	each site should be simultaniously processing it's job	Dec 26 09:56
Diablo-D3	if one site is down, the other is a duplicate	Dec 26 09:57
mcwimpy	i would like to thank the people that brought up this website (and mr. schestowitz in prticular) for the work they do and thus showing us what's going on behind the scenes!	Dec 26 09:57
oiaohm	Not possible in all cases. When the site is acquiring data from where it is that is unique to that area. Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:58
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: which doesn't entirely mean anything	Dec 26 09:58
Diablo-D3	its no different than any system	Dec 26 09:59
Diablo-D3	somewhere the data originated, and its unique to that location	Dec 26 09:59
Diablo-D3	no matter what you're doing	Dec 26 09:59
Diablo-D3	soon as you have the data, you duplicate it	Dec 26 09:59
oiaohm	If you still can Diablo-D3	Dec 26 09:59
oiaohm	You are making the presume you will be 100 percent able to replcate off.	Dec 26 10:00
mcwimpy	schestowitz: i would like to thank the people that brought up this website (and mr. schestowitz in prticular) for the work they do and thus showing us what's going on behind the scenes!	Dec 26 10:00
tessier	mcwimpy: On behalf of Mr Shestowitz (currently asleep) you are welcome.	Dec 26 10:01
tessier	Schestowitz	Dec 26 10:01
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if the data was never replicated, it never existed to begin with	Dec 26 10:01
Diablo-D3	you're talking about the false positive storage case	Dec 26 10:02
tessier	Diablo-D3: What about the first time it was created?	Dec 26 10:02
Diablo-D3	which, if it does happen, your communication pipeline is designed wrong	Dec 26 10:02
tessier	Never replicated but does exist.	Dec 26 10:02
Diablo-D3	tessier: in my line of work, thats the user's desktop at home.	Dec 26 10:02
Diablo-D3	if my system falsely replies the data was stored correctly and it wasn't, then I designed something wrong	Dec 26 10:02
oiaohm	I have seen many cases of data not replated to other locations due to commuincation failures Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:02
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: it should have never accepted the store request then	Dec 26 10:03
oiaohm	That just has to be timed with something like a direct building hit.	Dec 26 10:03
oiaohm	So leading to recovery being required Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:03
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: except that goes into "dont care, end of the world" territory	Dec 26 10:03
oiaohm	That is not end of world.	Dec 26 10:04
Diablo-D3	for example	Dec 26 10:04
mcwimpy	tessier: thank you :)	Dec 26 10:05
Diablo-D3	all the data storage and communications lines that were under the world trade center	Dec 26 10:05
Diablo-D3	9/11 happens, no one gives a fuck about some fucking computers, the world has more important things to deal with	Dec 26 10:05
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: I am talking way smaller scale events than that.	Dec 26 10:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Holy dear Lord! #"Windows[Vista] 7" requires even much more hardware than #Vista itself!! http://tinyurl.com/y9np2ht		Dec 26 10:05
Diablo-D3	its a dont care end of the world event.	Dec 26 10:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Holy dear Lord! #Windows[Vista] 7 requires even much more hardware than #Vista itself!! http://tinyurl.com/y9np2ht		Dec 26 10:05
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oiaohm	I am talking the basics like someone screwing up and bring local exchange done at the same time sat uplinks being replaced.	Dec 26 10:06
Diablo-D3	then the facility shuts down for storage requests.	Dec 26 10:06
oiaohm	Then something hitting the servers.	Dec 26 10:06
Diablo-D3	its free to serve, however.	Dec 26 10:06
oiaohm	3 point effect.	Dec 26 10:06
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: see above.	Dec 26 10:07
Diablo-D3	this is basic transactional safety	Dec 26 10:07
Diablo-D3	a store request cannot complete until its already stored in at least some of the remote locations	Dec 26 10:07
oiaohm	Not all places can shutdown in those events Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:07
oiaohm	Ie can a hosplital stop just because it loses it data links.	Dec 26 10:07
Diablo-D3	since when were doctors robots, oiaohm	Dec 26 10:08
oiaohm	Sources of data from the location where you are that must be recored means you cannot just stop.	Dec 26 10:08
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Yet another desperate attempt from #MS to shove #Mono down people's throats. http://tinyurl.com/y9np2ht		Dec 26 10:08
Diablo-D3	and yes, oiaohm, during severe shit storms, hospitals do lose data	Dec 26 10:08
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Diablo-D3	doctors continue to work, even if there is no power	Dec 26 10:09
Diablo-D3	they just have to fill out forms in triplicate the old school way	Dec 26 10:09
oiaohm	But the system must stay operating as long as able. Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:09
oiaohm	Even if the of site link is lost	Dec 26 10:09
Diablo-D3	Yes, however that sort of data isn't actually important	Dec 26 10:09
Diablo-D3	no one lives or dies if the computer handling financial records goes down	Dec 26 10:10
Diablo-D3	hospital data is after the fact.	Dec 26 10:10
mcwimpy	hate to bust you discussion again, but can i make a suggestion to improve the boycottnovell website?	Dec 26 10:12
oiaohm	Hospitals depends. Some use the systems for critical care monitoring and the like. That data can be useful for diagnostics for people with itermit problems.	Dec 26 10:12
Diablo-D3	mcwimpy: roy isnt here	Dec 26 10:13
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: those systems are isolated and built for shit.	Dec 26 10:13
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: hospitals do not yet have fully intergrated systems like that	Dec 26 10:13
mcwimpy	diablo-d: allright and noone else here works on the website?	Dec 26 10:13
Diablo-D3	mcwimpy: nope, just roy	Dec 26 10:13
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: Some here and the usa do Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:13
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: not in that way	Dec 26 10:13
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: virtually all shit is not stored automagically	Dec 26 10:14
Diablo-D3	they have to plug it in.	Dec 26 10:14
Diablo-D3	they are slowly and painfully moving to that	Dec 26 10:14
Diablo-D3	and the world is dragging hospitals out of the 1980s	Dec 26 10:14
Diablo-D3	but its a slow process	Dec 26 10:14
mcwimpy	diablo-d3: hmmmm - thankx you	Dec 26 10:14
oiaohm	Only critical care areas Diablo-D3.	Dec 26 10:14
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: everything that requires a machine is "critical care" for the most part	Dec 26 10:15
oiaohm	Where small alterations in condition could be a sign of failure or progress Diablo-D3.	Dec 26 10:15
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Diablo-D3	oiaohm: however, virtually all devices do not connect to anything unless plugged in	Dec 26 10:15
Diablo-D3	its absurd since we have the tech	Dec 26 10:16
Diablo-D3	but hospitals hate change	Dec 26 10:16
Diablo-D3	because when stuff changes, it means its one less thing they can steal money with	Dec 26 10:16
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: there are downsides networking stuff for data transfer as well. Even that we have the tech does not make it always wise.	Dec 26 10:18
oiaohm	Most nasty bit of fun I have ever had was a solaris servers acting like under DOS attack but it was a switch gone nuts. Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:19
Diablo-D3	yes, except you said "solaris"	Dec 26 10:20
Diablo-D3	instead of "a real operating system that isn't shit"	Dec 26 10:20
oiaohm	I have also seen same things bring down network transfers between all OS's.	Dec 26 10:21
Diablo-D3	which means the node is down and should no longer be storing data.	Dec 26 10:22
oiaohm	Ok windows dies. Solarias stalls. Linux and BSD hold in there.	Dec 26 10:22
oiaohm	Problem is what OS is inside the devices doing the data logging Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:23
Diablo-D3	not that big of an issue.	Dec 26 10:24
Diablo-D3	thats out of the hands of this discussion.	Dec 26 10:24
oiaohm	You were wondering why hostpitals are being slow intergrating..	Dec 26 10:24
Diablo-D3	I wasnt wondering	Dec 26 10:25
Diablo-D3	I already passed judgement on them	Dec 26 10:25
oiaohm	Would you want a life support systems stalling or the like.	Dec 26 10:25
oiaohm	Due to a network issue.	Dec 26 10:25
Diablo-D3	they should not be plugged into a network	Dec 26 10:25
Diablo-D3	nor should they be doing any two way communication	Dec 26 10:25
oiaohm	They should be pluged in if they are hardered in design. Centeral monitoring in a ward has advantages to live rates.	Dec 26 10:26
Diablo-D3	when available	Dec 26 10:27
oiaohm	Problem is for hospitals not all the devices with network support is hardned and pluging them in can become life threating.	Dec 26 10:28
oiaohm	Yes a major quality control issue.	Dec 26 10:28
Diablo-D3	yes, this is an issue when you hire indians.	Dec 26 10:29
oiaohm	Tight buggets as well Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:29
oiaohm	Hardened designs cost money.	Dec 26 10:29
Diablo-D3	they have no excuse to not do it	Dec 26 10:30
Diablo-D3	the US has the highest health care costs in the world	Dec 26 10:30
oiaohm	5 life support machines for the cost of 1 Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:30
Diablo-D3	by not doing it they're either admitting to fraud or its attempted murder, take your pick.	Dec 26 10:30
oiaohm	That is the difference between hardend and not hardened Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:30
Diablo-D3	wrong.	Dec 26 10:30
Diablo-D3	its the difference between hiring 5 designers, or 1 designer that can do the work of 5.	Dec 26 10:31
Diablo-D3	the devices will cost less properly designed.	Dec 26 10:31
oiaohm	One life support machine can only support 1 person at a time.	Dec 26 10:31
oiaohm	Not in this case Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:31
Diablo-D3	yes, in this case.	Dec 26 10:31
oiaohm	It takes less parts to make one not hardened Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:32
Diablo-D3	nope	Dec 26 10:32
Diablo-D3	it doesn't.	Dec 26 10:32
Diablo-D3	in fact, it takes less parts to make it hardened	Dec 26 10:32
oiaohm	Also not hardened equals less areas to test.	Dec 26 10:32
oiaohm	Its also volume vs price as well. More not hardened sell than hardened so price not not hardened is lower.	Dec 26 10:33
Diablo-D3	tests dont usually prove anything	Dec 26 10:33
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if hardened is the only choice, then thats not an issue	Dec 26 10:34
oiaohm	True hardened has the network processing isolated from the rest of what it doing Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:35
oiaohm	Hardware isolated Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:36
oiaohm	You cannot do that without more hardware.	Dec 26 10:36
Diablo-D3	yes, which is the only way to do it correctl.	Dec 26 10:36
Diablo-D3	Im not interested in incorrectly designed hardware	Dec 26 10:36
Diablo-D3	and thats just the way it is.	Dec 26 10:36
oiaohm	I really would wish rules were passed pushing the non hardend devices out of the medical market. Diablo-D3	Dec 26 10:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Identity & Citizenship questions in South Asia is becoming complex RT @PrivacyNepal: Nepal Government is planning for National ID Card		Dec 26 10:51
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oiaohm	http://gizmodo.com/5431759/worst-gadgets-gallery/ fun read	Dec 26 11:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "Time is like a drug, too much of it kills you" - Terry Pratchett, Small Gods.		Dec 26 11:03
schestowitz	BN led to this: http://slashdot.org/story/09/12/24/1340218/All-GPLed-Code-Removed-From-MonoDevelop	Dec 26 11:08
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] I love chain stores who have no mention of opening hours anywhere on their website #FAIL http://tinyurl.com/ozrdc		Dec 26 11:08
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oiaohm	http://www.odfalliance.org/blog/index.php/site/obama_open_government_directive_odf/ Guess seen this already schestowitz	Dec 26 11:17
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reactions to #Microsoft ’s #Novell Software Inside #GNU #Linux http://boycottnovell.com/2009/12/26/impact-of-novell-trojans/		Dec 26 11:20
phIRCe-local	Title: Reactions to Microsofts Novell Software Inside GNU/Linux \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 121.57 KB	Dec 26 11:20
schestowitz	oiaohm: yeah	Dec 26 11:33
schestowitz	Covered in http://boycottnovell.com/2009/12/09/free-software-legal-restriction/	Dec 26 11:34
phIRCe-local	Title: Patents Roundup: Copyrighted SQL Queries, Microsoft Alliance with Company That Attacks F/OSS with Software Patents, Peer-to-Patent in Australia \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 124.82 KB	Dec 26 11:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Multitouch -enabled #KDE Plasma Desktop – Video Demo http://boycottnovell.com/2009/12/26/kde-sc-4-4-multitouch/ still ahead of the game		Dec 26 11:40
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schestowitz	Omar87, oiaohm: take a look ^	Dec 26 11:41
schestowitz	I'm trying to get WIndows users excited about Linux...	Dec 26 11:41
Omar87	schestowitz: cool!	Dec 26 11:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Thanks XKCD people for Best Birthday Greeting I got This year http://bit.ly/8gAFVk . And Thanks to All Friends for the rain of greetings		Dec 26 11:48
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oiaohm	That is only the tip of a very large iceberg in features comeing schestowitz	Dec 26 12:15
schestowitz	"In the world of development advocacy, pharmaceutical companies are pantomime villains, making outrageous profits at the expense of the poor. So reducing their profits and holding down prices must be good, right?"	Dec 26 12:19
schestowitz	http://www.owen.org/blog/2757	Dec 26 12:19
phIRCe-local	Title: What is GAVIs business model, and what should it be? .::. Size~: 81.9 KB	Dec 26 12:19
oiaohm	We have the system quite good here. Lot of drug companys don't like our pharmaceutical benifits design.	Dec 26 12:22
oiaohm	If you want to get listed on the goverment drug list you must agree to allow third parties in at some point.	Dec 26 12:22
schestowitz	In Australia?	Dec 26 12:22
oiaohm	Yep schestowitz	Dec 26 12:22
schestowitz	Pharmas are a global thing though	Dec 26 12:22
schestowitz	It's not a production industry	Dec 26 12:22
schestowitz	Production is quite cheap	Dec 26 12:23
schestowitz	It's a patents and monopolies industry	Dec 26 12:23
schestowitz	On chemistry mostly	Dec 26 12:23
oiaohm	Pharmas deal with our PBS directly or there stuff will not get sold here.	Dec 26 12:23
oiaohm	What is the point of patents if no one will pay for them because the drug is not allowed in the market.	Dec 26 12:24
schestowitz	I see...	Dec 26 12:24
oiaohm	All drugs in our market have been on the PBS at some point.	Dec 26 12:25
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oiaohm	Its the biggest thing Pharmas hate is having to deal with a central board that will assess the effectiveness of the drugs against others already in the market and price acordaly.	Dec 26 12:26
oiaohm	Ie the more effective than current the more money the drug is worth. if it just a old drug repackaged it worth the same as what the old drug was. ie packaging patents are worth almost nothing here.	Dec 26 12:27
oiaohm	Our system is about premoting useful research schestowitz	Dec 26 12:27
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schestowitz	I'm not sure about that	Dec 26 12:29
schestowitz	CSIRO seems to be about suing companues	Dec 26 12:29
oiaohm	It was CSIRO designed.	Dec 26 12:30
oiaohm	The funny part is the CSIRO started off just wanting credit schestowitz	Dec 26 12:31
oiaohm	and blocking patents removed that were in conflit with there patent schestowitz	Dec 26 12:32
oiaohm	Basically companies had patented stuff researched and designed in Australia first and were claiming it as there own.	Dec 26 12:32
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oiaohm	Next question how much stuff has the USA goverment payed for the development of and had none USA goverment companies patent and taken profit on.	Dec 26 12:34
oiaohm	none/non	Dec 26 12:34
oiaohm	You don't call Australia exactly friendly to anyone who takes out patents on stuff they should. Ie CSIRO has been very effective at patenting system. So one some does breach goverment researched pior art they are toast.	Dec 26 12:36
oiaohm	Darn I screwed that last line.	Dec 26 12:38
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schestowitz	[12:31] <oiaohm> The funny part is the CSIRO started off just wanting credit schestowitz	Dec 26 13:17
schestowitz	That's how many companies justify amassing patents	Dec 26 13:17
oiaohm	All CSIRO asked for what credit on the wifi standard. Then was basically attacked by people who had taken out patents after CSIRO patents.	Dec 26 13:21
oiaohm	Every company that CSIRO took action against had patents over lapping with thiers.	Dec 26 13:23
oiaohm	So a you can say those companies had failed to do a prior art search.	Dec 26 13:23
oiaohm	Problem with breaching prior art you are not forced to pay back. CSIRO is working with the shot system. Take out patents if someone is stupid enough to patent something after rip there ass off.	Dec 26 13:24
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schestowitz	Do you have any sources on that?	Dec 26 13:39
oiaohm	There was a broadcast here covering the case.	Dec 26 13:40
oiaohm	I will see on tuesday if I have it on a machine I am not running at the moment.	Dec 26 13:42
schestowitz	That's now the story I'v heard, that's all	Dec 26 13:43
kecskebak	Evolution buggy time today. Put too much in the bin and you can't empty it.	Dec 26 14:02
kecskebak	Look at an attachment on a message in "Outbox" and when the message is sent it silently dies.	Dec 26 14:02
schestowitz	ThunderBird 3.0 is out	Dec 26 14:06
schestowitz	It does calendaring now, with the plguin	Dec 26 14:06
schestowitz	Xmas is a good time to invest in migration. It's good enough for French authorities...	Dec 26 14:06
schestowitz	Evolution is a Novell product, and since we boycott Novell.....	Dec 26 14:07
kecskebak	I used to use Thunderbird all the time	Dec 26 14:07
schestowitz	It had improved a lot in 1.5	Dec 26 14:07
kecskebak	The thing that annoys me is that with Ubuntu you can never uninstall Evolution completely	Dec 26 14:07
schestowitz	I never looked back after leaving kmail, which was also OK but not perfect in KDE 3.1	Dec 26 14:07
kecskebak	I tried Evolution and then was too lazy to go back to Thunderbird	Dec 26 14:08
kecskebak	But as you say, Christmas is a good time to go back	Dec 26 14:08
schestowitz	kecskebak: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22434/1090/1/1/	Dec 26 14:08
kecskebak	Yes, I got rid of the Mono dependency in Evolution by hand in Synaptic	Dec 26 14:09
kecskebak	It doesn't need Mono, but you have to remove it yourself	Dec 26 14:09
schestowitz	Mono is treated as benign too often and winforms too	Dec 26 14:14
kecskebak	Thunderbird downloading now	Dec 26 14:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] News roundup: http://tinyurl.com/ye5btom		Dec 26 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] MyTomatoSoup news roundup: http://tinyurl.com/ycxp6r3		Dec 26 14:46
phIRCe-local	Title: News roundup — Plone site .::. Size~: 30.45 KB	Dec 26 14:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] EastEnders tops 2009 Christmas Day ratings - paid for by an extortion racket http://tinyurl.com/yeh3dwq		Dec 26 14:47
phIRCe-local	Title: BBC News - EastEnders tops 2009 Christmas Day ratings .::. Size~: 48.87 KB	Dec 26 14:47
Omar87	schestowitz: Check out my new post: http://www.mytomatosoup.net/news/news-collection	Dec 26 14:47
phIRCe-local	Title: News roundup — Plone site .::. Size~: 30.45 KB	Dec 26 14:47
*schestowitz looks		Dec 26 14:50
schestowitz	It's nice that this video got some exposure after I resposted it	Dec 26 14:50
schestowitz	It shows Linux as a cutting-edge platform, not like the myth.... CLI and some crappy old PC that "only good ads a server"	Dec 26 14:51
schestowitz	/ads/as/	Dec 26 14:51
Omar87	schestowitz: that's my new website, btw.	Dec 26 14:55
Omar87	schestowitz: I'm looking forward to increasing traffic to it as much as possible. Got any useful tips for how to acheive that?	Dec 26 14:56
schestowitz	Omar87: write good stories, ensure people know about them	Dec 26 15:08
schestowitz	With BN we've had people telling colleagues about it because they found it interesting	Dec 26 15:09
Omar87	schestowitz: that's my very first post. I failed to come up with a complete article so I decided to start with quick multi-article posts. Like headlines with short discriptions or followups.	Dec 26 15:11
kecskebak	BN is great because it's updated daily. That means going to it becomes a habit.	Dec 26 15:11
kecskebak	If you are only updated rarely it means you can get forgotten about.	Dec 26 15:11
schestowitz	I never thought about that	Dec 26 15:13
schestowitz	bbl	Dec 26 15:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Watching the Martix Revolutions, after the first two last night....Go Neo!!, not to be confused with Borneo lol		Dec 26 15:24
Omar87	schestowitz: tyt	Dec 26 15:26
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #TransGaming finally killing off #Cedega, one less shitty product poluting #Linux http://ur1.ca/ik4e #wine		Dec 26 15:49
phIRCe-local	Title: LinuxGames - Embrace your inner penguin .::. Size~: 23.76 KB	Dec 26 15:49
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amarsh04	are you still there kecskebak?	Dec 26 16:16
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kecskebak	Hi - Yes, sorry	Dec 26 16:20
kecskebak	I'm working at the same time!	Dec 26 16:20
kecskebak	amarsh04: Sorry I didn't catch you	Dec 26 16:21
amarsh04	no worries	Dec 26 16:24
amarsh04	were you posting at other times in this channel about tagging classical music?	Dec 26 16:25
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kecskebak	amarsh04: Yes, I was	Dec 26 16:36
kecskebak	I use Quod Libet and its tagging program Ex Falso	Dec 26 16:36
kecskebak	Ex Falso is an excellent tagging program for ogg audio files	Dec 26 16:36
kecskebak	All my collection is on my computer in ogg format	Dec 26 16:36
kecskebak	You don't have to use Quod Libet the music player to use Ex Falso the tagger	Dec 26 16:37
kecskebak	But Quod Libet does everything I want	Dec 26 16:37
amarsh04	I have both those programs... whilst staying with kde 3.5.9/3.5.10 I've been getting hold of some cds from ABC Classic FM's "classic 100 symphony" list	Dec 26 16:37
amarsh04	ironically, some of the material I've had to tag myself as it wasn't on freedb already	Dec 26 16:38
kecskebak	I tend to go for Chamber Music and British Light Music - the Light Music I usually have to tag myself	Dec 26 16:38
amarsh04	lately I have been using abcde to encode and tag cd's	Dec 26 16:38
kecskebak	I've never heard of that one before	Dec 26 16:39
amarsh04	did you get to watch the second series of "classical destinations"? The Australian Chamber Orchestra featured in that series	Dec 26 16:39
amarsh04	stands for "A Better CD Encoder"	Dec 26 16:40
kecskebak	No - I buy about half a dozen CDs a year at the moment, I can't afford any more :(	Dec 26 16:40
kecskebak	When I was working full time I used to buy a lot	Dec 26 16:40
amarsh04	I was in that situation - worse actually - for several years	Dec 26 16:40
kecskebak	My wife was in hospital for about four months this year, and I had to look after the children	Dec 26 16:41
kecskebak	As I'm self-employed there was no compassionate leave and my savings got drained to zero	Dec 26 16:42
kecskebak	Hopefully things will pick up next year	Dec 26 16:42
amarsh04	some of the local performers (Adelaide Symphony Orchestra, Adelaide Chamber Singers) have recently performed works of Veljo Tormis from Estonia	Dec 26 16:42
kecskebak	My best friend emigrated to Adelaide when I was at Primary School. Never heard from him again.	Dec 26 16:43
amarsh04	the orchestra's conductor is from Estonia	Dec 26 16:43
kecskebak	I know Gavin Sutherland, who does an awful lot of British Light Music works extensively in Australia and NZ	Dec 26 16:44
amarsh04	I've met a one or two people from Hungary...	Dec 26 16:44
kecskebak	Well, he was from Somerset - as I was back then	Dec 26 16:44
amarsh04	one of my grandparents was from Yoevil in Somerset	Dec 26 16:44
kecskebak	8 miles away from where I'm from	Dec 26 16:44
kecskebak	I'm from Crewkerne - used to work at Westland Helicopters	Dec 26 16:45
kecskebak	One of my brothers lives in Yeovil	Dec 26 16:45
amarsh04	I did one bit of contract programming and documentation work with British Aerospace Australia, but no other contact with the aerospace industry	Dec 26 16:46
kecskebak	Beautiful area, South Somerset	Dec 26 16:46
kecskebak	I miss it	Dec 26 16:46
kecskebak	This year I bought some Richard Addinsell, which was lovely	Dec 26 16:47
amarsh04	my stepdaughters' choir did a tour to Japan, England (London, Farnham), Belgium and Germany last year	Dec 26 16:48
kecskebak	Sounds wonderful	Dec 26 16:49
kecskebak	I grew up with my Dad playing a lot of Wagner (which I hated then and still do) and Eric Coates (which I love)	Dec 26 16:50
amarsh04	did the obligatory walk across Abbey Road near the recording studios	Dec 26 16:50
kecskebak	:)	Dec 26 16:50
kecskebak	Coates' Saxo Rhapsody is the best piece of music for saxophone ever written in my opinion.	Dec 26 16:50
kecskebak	My recording of it was done in Abbey Road.	Dec 26 16:50
amarsh04	I'll have to look it up	Dec 26 16:51
kecskebak	Another thing I treated myself to was some BBC Radiophonic Workshop - some of their 50s and 60s stuff is astonishing	Dec 26 16:51
kecskebak	brb	Dec 26 16:53
amarsh04	no worries... you might be interested in http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/news/080424_news_01	Dec 26 16:54
phIRCe-local	Title: BBC - Doctor Who - Tristram Cary - 1925 - 2008 .::. Size~: 16.58 KB	Dec 26 16:54
kecskebak	Oh yes, Bananas in Pyjamas	Dec 26 16:56
kecskebak	He wrote a wonderful score for a Doctor Who with a Saxophone Quartet	Dec 26 16:57
kecskebak	Ron Grainer was an excellent composer too - another Aussie	Dec 26 16:57
kecskebak	And Dudley Simpson who did the bulk of the original series - another Aussie	Dec 26 16:57
amarsh04	we don't tend to notice composers so much here... Percy Grainger is buried in Adelaide, Graham Koehne is still teaching	Dec 26 16:59
amarsh04	I've liked some of Nigel Westlake's material - he did soundtracks for some IMAX documentaries and for "Miss Potter"	Dec 26 17:00
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amarsh04	currently playing Joe Hisaishi's soundtrack to "My Neighbour Totoro"... track at the moment sounds a bit like Cliff Richard's "Summer Holiday"	Dec 26 17:02
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Omar87_	http://www.jordanopensource.org/blog/my-story-linux-open-source	Dec 26 17:29
phIRCe-local	Title: My Story With Linux / Open Source \| Jordan Open Source Association .::. Size~: 28.17 KB	Dec 26 17:29
schestowitz	Just wanted to wish say I enjoy the linuxbasement.com show and recommend it to friends.... they have had no new show in almost a month though!	Dec 26 17:38
schestowitz	I've mailed chad to ask why......	Dec 26 17:38
schestowitz	Omar87_: why is there no RSS feed for this page	Dec 26 17:39
schestowitz	?	Dec 26 17:39
Omar87_	schestowitz: what page?	Dec 26 17:39
schestowitz	Omar87_: neither in yours	Dec 26 17:40
schestowitz	jordanopensource.org and mytomatosoup.net	Dec 26 17:40
schestowitz	Oh, nm, I found it	Dec 26 17:40
schestowitz	I's there in the homepage but not in sub-pages	Dec 26 17:41
Omar87_	schestowitz: you found it in my website?	Dec 26 17:41
schestowitz	http://thebeezspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/12/guys-and-dolls.html	Dec 26 17:43
phIRCe-local	Title: The Beez' speaks..: Guys and dolls .::. Size~: 69.2 KB	Dec 26 17:43
schestowitz	Omar87_: http://www.mytomatosoup.net/recent-posts/RSS	Dec 26 17:43
phIRCe-local	Title: Not a web page! Aborting text/xml;charset=utf-8 type .::. Size~: 0 KB	Dec 26 17:43
schestowitz	http://www.netimperative.com/news/2009/october/twitter-made-25m-from-google-and-microsoft-search	Dec 26 17:53
phIRCe-local	Title: Twitter 'made $25m from Google and Microsoft search deals' — Welcome to Netimperative.com .::. Size~: 44.06 KB	Dec 26 17:53
schestowitz	Omar87_: yes, but only in main page	Dec 26 17:53
schestowitz	Make html headers show feed in all pages	Dec 26 17:53
schestowitz	Maybe you can change settings/template	Dec 26 17:53
schestowitz	To grow the site you'll need regulars	Dec 26 17:54
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Omar87_	schestowitz: Thanks a lot for your advice. :)	Dec 26 17:55
schestowitz	np, you've given us advice too	Dec 26 17:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] I wonder if Liverpool will scrape a win today despite Rafa, they badly need to clot the wound		Dec 26 17:59
schestowitz	Hey, zoobab_	Dec 26 18:00
schestowitz	what's up?	Dec 26 18:00
zoobab_	I was watching the STOA event	Dec 26 18:00
zoobab_	I have not finished yet	Dec 26 18:00
schestowitz	Is it not over?	Dec 26 18:00
zoobab_	your friend of the United States was there	Dec 26 18:00
schestowitz	Oh, rerun	Dec 26 18:00
schestowitz	Zuck?	Dec 26 18:01
zoobab_	at the end of the second panel	Dec 26 18:01
zoobab_	yes	Dec 26 18:01
schestowitz	Yuck	Dec 26 18:01
zoobab_	he speaking in the name of european SMEs	Dec 26 18:01
schestowitz	LOL	Dec 26 18:01
schestowitz	What else!?	Dec 26 18:01
schestowitz	I speak on behalf of Gandhi	Dec 26 18:01
zoobab_	I don't know, I did not had time to process everything	Dec 26 18:01
zoobab_	but there are nice bits inside that needs to be clipped	Dec 26 18:02
schestowitz	Yeah, I'm sure there are	Dec 26 18:02
zoobab_	like the RIM guy who did not get any answer from the Commission	Dec 26 18:02
schestowitz	They have patents	Dec 26 18:02
zoobab_	about trolls	Dec 26 18:02
schestowitz	They get embargoed over them	Dec 26 18:02
schestowitz	RIM is not a big company like Nokia	Dec 26 18:02
zoobab_	so what?	Dec 26 18:02
schestowitz	So they get pushed around	Dec 26 18:02
zoobab_	law is for everybody, not only for large companies	Dec 26 18:03
schestowitz	Cross-licensing works for Nokia and Apple (iHype)	Dec 26 18:03
schestowitz	zoobab_: but patent law is good for large companies	Dec 26 18:03
schestowitz	Not TomTom	Dec 26 18:03
schestowitz	Large companies are also gold mine for trolls	Dec 26 18:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Those who the moral high ground should not need calls to resign, again the Church show their qualities. http://tinyurl.com/yeonc2u		Dec 26 18:03
phIRCe-local	Title: BBC News - Fresh calls for fifth Irish Catholic bishop to resign .::. Size~: 52.02 KB	Dec 26 18:03
zoobab_	we need more trolls	Dec 26 18:04
zoobab_	and criminal sanctions	Dec 26 18:04
zoobab_	:-)	Dec 26 18:04
schestowitz	YEah	Dec 26 18:08
schestowitz	Turbulence breeds rebellion	Dec 26 18:08
schestowitz	Just stay out of IBM though, cause they control the USPTO now, partly	Dec 26 18:08
zoobab_	IBM is threatening a free software project	Dec 26 18:18
zoobab_	trying to get more infos	Dec 26 18:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Britons shun Gordon Brown’s roadshow to promote Britishness - I love karma http://tinyurl.com/ye2jjyz		Dec 26 18:20
phIRCe-local	Title: Britons shun Gordon Brown’s roadshow to promote Britishness - Times Online .::. Size~: 113.91 KB	Dec 26 18:20
schestowitz	http://www.internetnews.com/webcontent/article.php/3855221/Yahoo+Holiday+Shutdown+a+CostSaving+Move.htm	Dec 26 18:29
phIRCe-local	Title: Yahoo Holiday Shutdown a Cost-Saving Move - InternetNews.com .::. Size~: 145.35 KB	Dec 26 18:29
schestowitz	zoobab_: which one?	Dec 26 18:29
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schestowitz	http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/185290/yelp_rejects_google_google_walks_from_yelp_bad_news_either_way.html	Dec 26 18:36
phIRCe-local	Title: Yelp Rejects Google, Google Walks from Yelp: Bad News Either Way - PC World Business Center .::. Size~: 55.97 KB	Dec 26 18:36
*kecskebak has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Dec 26 18:37
schestowitz	Microsoft employee fired by CEO Ballmer for not saying Bing with enthusiasm ... http://www.examiner.com/x-14552-Social-Media-Examiner~y2009m12d22-Microsoft-employee-fired-by-CEO-Ballmer-for-not-saying-Bing-with-enthusiasm-VIDEO	Dec 26 18:41
schestowitz	404 now	Dec 26 18:41
phIRCe-local	Title: Social Media Examiner .::. Size~: 108.11 KB	Dec 26 18:41
schestowitz	It's fake	Dec 26 18:41
cubezzz	told you :)	Dec 26 18:57
schestowitz	http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AheadoftheCurve/techbytes-techbytes-blackberry-outage/story?id=9407028	Dec 26 19:01
phIRCe-local	Title: TechBytes: TechBytes: Blackberry Outage - ABC News .::. Size~: 75.67 KB	Dec 26 19:01
schestowitz	cubezzz: someone else did	Dec 26 19:01
cubezzz	still funny though	Dec 26 19:30
cubezzz	it's not like Ballmer acts normal	Dec 26 19:30
cubezzz	I need a faster LAN	Dec 26 19:37
cubezzz	it's getting pretty old	Dec 26 19:37
cubezzz	or a faster router maybe	Dec 26 19:38
trmanco	how fast does it go?	Dec 26 19:38
cubezzz	well when gftp was going full out I couldn't use the internet on my other comptuers	Dec 26 19:42
cubezzz	so I throttled gftp	Dec 26 19:42
cubezzz	so it's 200 KB/s on the gftp stuff now	Dec 26 19:43
cubezzz	this is an old router, a dlink DI-704P	Dec 26 19:43
cubezzz	the bottleneck seems to be the router	Dec 26 19:43
trmanco	oh	Dec 26 19:44
trmanco	that sure it strange	Dec 26 19:44
trmanco	200 KB/s for a lan is nothing	Dec 26 19:44
trmanco	I can do 30 MB/S on mine via wireless	Dec 26 19:45
trmanco	maybe more	Dec 26 19:45
cubezzz	well it's 200 KB/s now, but before I'm not sure how fast it was going	Dec 26 19:45
cubezzz	but when it was going "all out" I couldn't use the internet on my other computers	Dec 26 19:45
trmanco	you ran out of router cpu :-P	Dec 26 19:45
trmanco	get a quad core for it	Dec 26 19:46
cubezzz	very possible	Dec 26 19:46
trmanco	:-P	Dec 26 19:46
cubezzz	it's an old ARM cpu	Dec 26 19:46
trmanco	mine is a MIPS	Dec 26 19:46
cubezzz	what make/model?	Dec 26 19:46
trmanco	300 MHZ	Dec 26 19:46
trmanco	it's european, french	Dec 26 19:46
trmanco	conceptronic	Dec 26 19:46
trmanco	it might be based on some other routers, don't know	Dec 26 19:47
trmanco	it runs montavista	Dec 26 19:47
trmanco	BusyBox v0.61.pre (2007.06.26-07:52+0000) Built-in shell (ash)	Dec 26 19:48
trmanco	lol	Dec 26 19:48
cubezzz	you can go to the bash prompt on your router?	Dec 26 19:49
cubezzz	weird name	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	# cat /proc/cpuinfo	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	processor : 0	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	cpu model : MIPS 4KEc V4.8	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	BogoMIPS : 211.35	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	wait instruction : no	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	microsecond timers : yes	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	extra interrupt vector : yes	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	hardware watchpoint : yes	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	VCED exceptions : not available	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	VCEI exceptions : not available	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	it's not bash, it's ash :-P	Dec 26 19:51
trmanco	yes I can login with ssh or telnet	Dec 26 19:51
cubezzz	AMITSOC-0261 (143MHz)	Dec 26 19:52
cubezzz	open source?	Dec 26 19:52
trmanco	well	Dec 26 19:53
trmanco	they give you the source code for you to build it	Dec 26 19:54
trmanco	yes, montavista is open source	Dec 26 19:54
trmanco	http://www.mvista.com/	Dec 26 19:54
phIRCe-local	Title: MontaVista embedded Linux software and development tools for intelligent devices and embedded systems .::. Size~: 24.07 KB	Dec 26 19:54
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Sunday morning: church, or pub? Both. http://is.gd/5CwY1		Dec 26 19:55
phIRCe-local	Title: AdelaideNow... Adelaide faithful have a beer with God .::. Size~: 44.51 KB	Dec 26 19:55
trmanco	# cat /proc/version	Dec 26 19:56
trmanco	Linux version 2.4.17_mvl21-malta-mips_fp_le (jenny@FD5) (gcc version 2.95.3 20010315 (release/MontaVista)) #1 Tue Jun 26 15:49:55 CST 2007	Dec 26 19:56
schestowitz	http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2009/12/bryan-cave-partner-chosen-for-commerce-post.html "Kevin Wolf, a partner in the Washington office of Bryan Cave who raised money for President Barack Obama's 2008 campaign, is the president's pick for a top trade position." Bribery?	Dec 26 20:00
phIRCe-local	Title: Bryan Cave Partner Chosen for Commerce Post - The BLT: The Blog of Legal Times .::. Size~: 62.48 KB	Dec 26 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post \| Some URL Changes Are Required \| The Digital Prism http://tinyurl.com/ygppdce		Dec 26 20:12
phIRCe-local	Title: Some URL Changes Are Required \| The Digital Prism .::. Size~: 11.16 KB	Dec 26 20:12
*pawel_121_ (n=quassel@82.177.199.102) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 26 20:16
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.37.117.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 26 20:18
schestowitz	Poor defence: Court grants summary judgment for studios in Gary Fung/IsoHunt case; no DMCA safe harbor for inducement < http://copyrightsandcampaigns.blogspot.com/2009/12/court-grants-summary-judgment-for.html >	Dec 26 20:31
phIRCe-local	Title: Copyrights & Campaigns: Court grants summary judgment for studios in Gary Fung/IsoHunt case; no DMCA safe harbor for inducement .::. Size~: 121.36 KB	Dec 26 20:31
*PeterKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 26 20:34
schestowitz	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-12-25-004-35-NW-MO-0000	Dec 26 20:49
phIRCe-local	Title: Linux Today - Firefox for mobile 'days away' from launch .::. Size~: 75.51 KB	Dec 26 20:49
schestowitz	"FF eats a 100MB from my 2GB memory when idle, what would be left of my phones 128MB when I start to use it(FF)? "	Dec 26 20:49
pawel_121_	schestowitz try Tomboy, eats the same amount of memory :D	Dec 26 20:51
pawel_121_	mono junk ;)	Dec 26 20:51
schestowitz	Wot?	Dec 26 20:52
schestowitz	100mb?	Dec 26 20:52
schestowitz	Mono is fat, but...	Dec 26 20:52
schestowitz	I reckon they want to just assume it to be "there" at some stage, for a wider raft of mono apps	Dec 26 20:52
pawel_121_	at start it eats about 20MB, but open four notes and it grows up to 70	Dec 26 20:53
pawel_121_	simple note taking app ;)	Dec 26 20:54
trmanco	it's because it's translated in many languages :-P	Dec 26 20:55
pawel_121_	sadly not in Polish yet :(	Dec 26 20:56
pawel_121_	;p	Dec 26 20:56
trmanco	oh	Dec 26 20:56
trmanco	then it's your fault	Dec 26 20:56
trmanco	you're the one using wrong	Dec 26 20:56
trmanco	:-P	Dec 26 20:57
pawel_121_	yep, I should translate it ;P	Dec 26 20:57
pawel_121_	however, I prefer some other languages where words don't eat such ammounts of memory ;)	Dec 26 20:58
trmanco	like what?	Dec 26 21:00
trmanco	:-P	Dec 26 21:00
pawel_121_	like Polisc++ ;>	Dec 26 21:01
schestowitz	http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/xubuntu-9-10.html Gets kicked in the bollix sadly	Dec 26 21:01
schestowitz	*bollox	Dec 26 21:01
cubezzz	lynx	Dec 26 21:04
cubezzz	ftw	Dec 26 21:04
cubezzz	text based ftw	Dec 26 21:04
cubezzz	and ultimately, command line ftw :)	Dec 26 21:05
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 26 21:07
cubezzz	maybe I could just set up one router for internet and another for file transfers	Dec 26 21:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Boxing day is busier than Xmas day....go figure...		Dec 26 21:10
cubezzz	or some sort of file sharing box	Dec 26 21:12
cubezzz	oh I know a good language: APL	Dec 26 21:13
cubezzz	;-)	Dec 26 21:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] DTV down? - Housekeeping the links on my blog and found it offline....fingers crossed its back up soon.		Dec 26 21:15
MinceR	i know a better language: Malbolge	Dec 26 21:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #_goblin DTV????		Dec 26 21:16
schestowitz	oops. hash.	Dec 26 21:16
cubezzz	Dante's Inferno?	Dec 26 21:17
cubezzz	someone has a sense of humour	Dec 26 21:17
cubezzz	people actually use APL though :)	Dec 26 21:18
cubezzz	it's interesting no one seems to use BASIC nowadays	Dec 26 21:18
schestowitz	http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/12/23/On-Research	Dec 26 21:19
phIRCe-local	Title: ongoing · On Scholarship .::. Size~: 9.56 KB	Dec 26 21:19
cubezzz	The SuperPet had APL	Dec 26 21:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Chromium (build 4.0.283.0) seems to have resolved the re-sizing issue. Kudos to Xmas chromium coders! - All is well again in Chromium!		Dec 26 21:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz Demoscene.tv		Dec 26 21:19
schestowitz	cubezzz: Novell uses similar syntax	Dec 26 21:19
cubezzz	MinceR where do you find this stuff?? :)	Dec 26 21:20
MinceR	once i discovered esoteric programming languages on the web and followed links	Dec 26 21:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_goblin ta		Dec 26 21:20
MinceR	one of my favorites is SIMPLE	Dec 26 21:20
schestowitz	The only language Microsoft understands is PIMPLE	Dec 26 21:21
MinceR	http://sucs.org/~cmckenna/humour/computer/other.html	Dec 26 21:22
phIRCe-local	Title: Home - SUCS .::. Size~: 6.86 KB	Dec 26 21:22
schestowitz	http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/12/25/Christmas "I’m losing patience with the carefully-multicultural “Happy Holidays” and “Best of the Season”. This particular feast day’s context is religious, and there’s nothing wrong with that even if you’re not, either as a matter of faith or heritage."	Dec 26 21:22
phIRCe-local	Title: ongoing · Merry Christmas .::. Size~: 8.62 KB	Dec 26 21:22
schestowitz	"SIMPLE is the acronym for Sheer Idiot's Monopurpose Programming Linguistic Environment."	Dec 26 21:23
schestowitz	"PIMPLE is the acronym for Sheer Idiot's Monopurpose Programming Linguistic PIMPLE"	Dec 26 21:23
schestowitz	Wow, it's recurisive	Dec 26 21:23
schestowitz	*cursive	Dec 26 21:23
MinceR	http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/hq9plusplus.html	Dec 26 21:23
phIRCe-local	Title: DM's Esoteric Programming Languages - HQ9++ .::. Size~: 3.89 KB	Dec 26 21:23
schestowitz	Hmmmmm... actually is expands in the wrong direcytion	Dec 26 21:24
MinceR	indeed	Dec 26 21:24
schestowitz	_goblin:	Dec 26 21:35
schestowitz	Berry Linux 1.00	Dec 26 21:35
schestowitz	http://berry.sourceforge.jp/	Dec 26 21:35
phIRCe-local	Title: Berry Linux Project Homepage .::. Size~: 10.45 KB	Dec 26 21:35
schestowitz	Historical new release	Dec 26 21:36
schestowitz	Worth reviewing, it would be put in DistroWatch	Dec 26 21:36
_goblin	schestowitz: I was just looking for a xmas feature....spot on...I'll give it a go, cheers!	Dec 26 21:40
_goblin	and at only 132mb I'll have it in a few mins!	Dec 26 21:41
schestowitz	I'v watched it for years, but it is hardly being reviewed	Dec 26 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_goblin your Twitter account got compromised and the background of it is now a garden... of TRANSISTORS! :-)		Dec 26 21:57
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10421882-1.html	Dec 26 21:58
phIRCe-local	Title: Apple owns iSlate.com--the mystery deepens \| Crave - CNET .::. Size~: 151.33 KB	Dec 26 21:58
schestowitz	Does Apple own iNsomnia yet?	Dec 26 21:59
MinceR	or iDiotsRUs?	Dec 26 22:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post \| Lock's Mistake \| The Digital Prism http://tinyurl.com/ykxcoe3		Dec 26 22:04
phIRCe-local	Title: Lock's Mistake \| The Digital Prism .::. Size~: 11.04 KB	Dec 26 22:04
schestowitz	Ouch: http://me.selah.ca/blog/?p=620	Dec 26 22:06
phIRCe-local	Title: Disdaining Gentoo « Selah. .::. Size~: 11.73 KB	Dec 26 22:06
schestowitz	MinceR: that would be too flettering	Dec 26 22:06
schestowitz	Idiocy does not necessarily imply psychological complexity	Dec 26 22:06
*MinceR doesn't get it		Dec 26 22:07
schestowitz	http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Mac/dp/1567615341	Dec 26 22:07
phIRCe-local	Title: The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Mac Complete Idiots Guide: Amazon.co.uk: Books .::. Size~: 227.95 KB	Dec 26 22:07
schestowitz	RTFM	Dec 26 22:07
schestowitz	\|"Idiot!"	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	Lesson 101:	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	How to use a mouse	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	Click button.	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	That's it. Next chapter	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	How to install OS	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	You can't	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	Next chapter...	Dec 26 22:08
MinceR	http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idiot#Noun	Dec 26 22:08
phIRCe-local	Title: idiot - Wiktionary .::. Size~: 54.91 KB	Dec 26 22:08
schestowitz	How to fix old office: buy newer version. Again.	Dec 26 22:09
schestowitz	See? It's eeeeeeeeasy.	Dec 26 22:09
pawel_121_	I suppose I'd be able to use mac ;)	Dec 26 22:09
cubezzz	gqview doesn't make an icon :-/	Dec 26 22:09
schestowitz	MinceR: “‘a private citizen, one who has no professional knowledge, layman’”	Dec 26 22:10
schestowitz	Depends on whose definition, I guess	Dec 26 22:10
cubezzz	I did my FOSS speech again	Dec 26 22:10
schestowitz	It doesn't mean senile or dyslexic	Dec 26 22:10
cubezzz	opps, what am I talking about... it does make an icon	Dec 26 22:11
cubezzz	I'm blind	Dec 26 22:11
schestowitz	cubezzz: whereabouts?	Dec 26 22:11
cubezzz	to my sister :)	Dec 26 22:11
schestowitz	OK	Dec 26 22:11
MinceR	schestowitz: we're not speaking Ancient Greek	Dec 26 22:11
schestowitz	Good practice, I guess	Dec 26 22:11
MinceR	neither Middle English.	Dec 26 22:11
schestowitz	Better to rehearse to someone than inside the head	Dec 26 22:11
*schestowitz hats rehearsal of /any/ kind... one of life's biggest wastes of time		Dec 26 22:12
MinceR	but take iMbecilesRUs if you prefer.	Dec 26 22:12
schestowitz	MinceR: too long	Dec 26 22:12
cubezzz	imbeciles are != us	Dec 26 22:12
schestowitz	imbecile is a big word	Dec 26 22:12
schestowitz	Like launcher	Dec 26 22:12
schestowitz	Be simple	Dec 26 22:12
schestowitz	"Dock"	Dec 26 22:12
schestowitz	"Mac"	Dec 26 22:12
cubezzz	bing! you are correct!	Dec 26 22:13
schestowitz	"Pod"	Dec 26 22:13
schestowitz	roy@roy:~$ ping bing	Dec 26 22:13
schestowitz	ping: unknown host bing	Dec 26 22:14
MinceR	"Goo"	Dec 26 22:14
MinceR	as in "goo goo goo ga ga"	Dec 26 22:14
schestowitz	Better than Dooh-dle	Dec 26 22:14
cubezzz	my new OS will be called BURP	Dec 26 22:14
schestowitz	Or "Pooh-dle"	Dec 26 22:14
schestowitz	cubezzz: with Oxygen?	Dec 26 22:15
cubezzz	Basically Understandable Really Professional	Dec 26 22:15
cubezzz	BURP will be fully WINE compatible	Dec 26 22:17
schestowitz	Bill Beebe flyin' ideas..... http://blogbeebe.blogspot.com/2009/12/proposal-for-new-linux-distribution.html	Dec 26 22:17
phIRCe-local	Title: blogbeebe: Proposal for a new Linux distribution .::. Size~: 100.89 KB	Dec 26 22:17
schestowitz	http://sunnyeves.blogspot.com/2009/12/ubuntus-backward-step.html	Dec 26 22:18
phIRCe-local	Title: An Engineer's Options & Futures: Ubuntu's backward step .::. Size~: 112.47 KB	Dec 26 22:18
cubezzz	schestowitz did you see Sagan's last interview on Charlie Rose?	Dec 26 22:19
cubezzz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jod7v-m573k	Dec 26 22:21
*Tallken has quit ("Leaving")		Dec 26 22:22
MinceR	i thought BURP was a name for a roleplaying game	Dec 26 22:22
cubezzz	it probably is	Dec 26 22:22
pawel_121_	GURP maybe?	Dec 26 22:22
cubezzz	well at least my sister will _consider_ using FOSS	Dec 26 22:23
pawel_121_	but afaik it was role playing system	Dec 26 22:23
MinceR	there's BRP and GURPS	Dec 26 22:23
pawel_121_	yes, GURPS	Dec 26 22:23
MinceR	but no BURP yet	Dec 26 22:23
pawel_121_	GURPS was in Fallout	Dec 26 22:23
pawel_121_	and they renamed it to SPECIAL in Fallout 2	Dec 26 22:24
MinceR	i didn't know SPECIAL was related to GURPS	Dec 26 22:24
pawel_121_	afaik it's modified GURPS	Dec 26 22:24
cubezzz	sometimes I get the feeling Microsoft uses obfuscated code	Dec 26 22:25
cubezzz	and for sure some web pages do	Dec 26 22:25
schestowitz	cubezzz: I saw it before, yes...	Dec 26 22:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] found a great spell checker in Drupal, use Firefox and switch to code view, it picks up the typos and lets you easily change them \o/		Dec 26 22:25
schestowitz	cubezzz: advocate freedom too	Dec 26 22:26
schestowitz	A friend of mine from the gym tried Fedora with KDE4	Dec 26 22:26
schestowitz	He now uses Vista 7	Dec 26 22:26
cubezzz	really, he went from Fedora to Vista?	Dec 26 22:26
schestowitz	But I explained to him why people outside the English-speaking world (AU, UK, US, CA, not SA though, due to apartheid) move to Free software	Dec 26 22:27
cubezzz	yeah	Dec 26 22:27
schestowitz	He only vaguely knows about DRM	Dec 26 22:27
schestowitz	I'm surprised he even tried Linux distros	Dec 26 22:27
cubezzz	he didn't consider dual boot?	Dec 26 22:27
schestowitz	Nobody pushed him to	Dec 26 22:27
schestowitz	He's a security guard, not a techie	Dec 26 22:27
cubezzz	curiousity I guess	Dec 26 22:27
schestowitz	Yeah, but still.	Dec 26 22:27
cubezzz	yeah, that's the thing, the FOSS people really love it but....	Dec 26 22:27
schestowitz	Other friends from there don't even know about anything but Apple and Microsoft	Dec 26 22:28
schestowitz	It's a two-option world to them	Dec 26 22:28
schestowitz	Like w/ Google...	Dec 26 22:28
schestowitz	Microsoft wants people to forget Wolfram, Wikipedia, even Yahoo!	Dec 26 22:28
schestowitz	Pretending that !google = bong	Dec 26 22:28
MinceR	http://www10.nytimes.com.nyud.net/2009/12/01/science/01human.html?_r=5&pagewanted=all	Dec 26 22:28
phIRCe-local	Title: Error processing the URL: .::. Size~: 0 KB	Dec 26 22:28
schestowitz	cubezzz: he hated VIsta	Dec 26 22:28
schestowitz	I asked what Vista 7 has that's good	Dec 26 22:29
cubezzz	why use it then?	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	He couldn't really give an answer	Dec 26 22:29
MinceR	actually they've turned wolfram into a lackey	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	Which was what I expected	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	MinceR: they have	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	Paid him probably	Dec 26 22:29
cubezzz	I think Wolfram linked to my very first web page	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	Bought some maakrte share	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	Like w/ Verizon	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	They'll just die burning money	Dec 26 22:29
schestowitz	Microsoft also paid Twitter	Dec 26 22:30
schestowitz	cubezzz: good programme I'm watching these days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pYzaBh-HkI&feature=related	Dec 26 22:32
pawel_121_	bye everyone :)	Dec 26 22:32
*pawel_121_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Dec 26 22:32
*cubezzz checks		Dec 26 22:34
cubezzz	yeah basically NA is messed up	Dec 26 22:34
cubezzz	big time	Dec 26 22:34
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Lost terminal")		Dec 26 22:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Wifey just asked if she could watch Doctor Who, needs to catch up with last special episodes.Ubuntu+Mplayer+get_iplayer to the rescue! #fb		Dec 26 22:40
*Balrog (n=Balrog@pool-74-109-70-59.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 26 23:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Cloud over the IT world in 2010? – Survey results & what next for Windows? http://tinyurl.com/yaq2z2f #google #chromeos #microsoft #windows		Dec 26 23:15
phIRCe-local	Title: Cloud over the IT world in 2010? Survey results & what next for Windows? « OPEN BYTES cave quid dicis, quando, et cui. .::. Size~: 43.69 KB	Dec 26 23:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz ? Joke I assume? Not keen on my new backdrop? Had it a while though!		Dec 26 23:20
cubezzz	Comes docs online...	Dec 26 23:26
cubezzz	"After realizing how embarrassing the documents were to Microsoft, they put them online and later got a very large settlement from Microsoft by agreeing to take their website down."	Dec 26 23:27
cubezzz	who got a very large settlement?	Dec 26 23:27
_goblin	Where did you read that?	Dec 26 23:29
cubezzz	slashdot right at the top :)	Dec 26 23:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica: Big Brother 11 to feature surplus Endemol executives http://newstechnica.com/?p=968		Dec 26 23:30
phIRCe-local	Title: Big Brother 11 to feature surplus Endemol executives \| NewsTechnica .::. Size~: 38.28 KB	Dec 26 23:30
*PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving")		Dec 26 23:32
cubezzz	regarding the whole Comes thing...	Dec 26 23:40
cubezzz	I think what is needed is to at least teach that FOSS exists and it's a viable alternative body of software	Dec 26 23:41
cubezzz	I don't care about windows API's	Dec 26 23:42
cubezzz	IShellBrowser, iShellView, iPersistFolder, and iCommDlgBrowse and all that stuff	Dec 26 23:42
cubezzz	if I absolutely had to, I could use it and learn it	Dec 26 23:43
cubezzz	I did in the past	Dec 26 23:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Large Hadron Collider's problems explained. http://cdn-www.cracked.com/phpimages/photoshop/7/4/4/15744.jpg		Dec 26 23:56
phIRCe-local	Title: Error processing the URL: .::. Size~: 0 KB	Dec 26 23:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_goblin joke, aye :-)		Dec 26 23:57
schestowitz	[23:27] <cubezzz> "After realizing how embarrassing the documents were to Microsoft, they put them online and later got a very large settlement from Microsoft by agreeing to take their website down."	Dec 26 23:58
schestowitz	What's the URL of this quote?	Dec 26 23:58
schestowitz	Oh, nm. You answered that	Dec 26 23:58

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