| schestowitz | tessier: give Marble a try for OpenStreetMap with GUI | Jan 07 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | tessier: I can't log in to admin panel, maybe a cookie issue | Jan 07 00:10 |
| tessier | Yeah...just a sec... | Jan 07 00:10 |
| schestowitz | Thanks | Jan 07 00:10 |
| tessier | Try now | Jan 07 00:11 |
| tessier | I'm experimenting with various things. Overall the site is still caching very poorly. Not sure why. Only getting a 40% cache hit rate. | Jan 07 00:12 |
| cubezzz | "Is it insane to insist that Microsoft put Windows on the XO? Of course, especially when it turns out that no government wants it, and the volunteers hate it. Microsoft paid to have Windows XP put on 5,000 units which it donated to governments for trials. Nobody has ordered any since." | Jan 07 00:14 |
| tessier | heh | Jan 07 00:15 |
| schestowitz | tessier: I think I might need to flush old cookies? It doesn't work yet. I can't log in | Jan 07 00:16 |
| tessier | Cookie should get automatically reset when you successfully login. No need to flush old. | Jan 07 00:17 |
| tessier | What url are you logging in to? | Jan 07 00:18 |
| tessier | It should be allowing cookies on anything matching "wp-(login|admin)" | Jan 07 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Oh, I see.. | Jan 07 00:19 |
| schestowitz | That sorted it | Jan 07 00:20 |
| schestowitz | There are other routes in, I took the one you suggested :-) | Jan 07 00:20 |
| schestowitz | tessier: any advice you give me on how to reduce the strain I would welcome and act upon | Jan 07 00:20 |
| schestowitz | To sort of recap, we had two WordPress plugins | Jan 07 00:20 |
| schestowitz | One is: supercache | Jan 07 00:21 |
| schestowitz | This is considered better than wp-cache | Jan 07 00:21 |
| schestowitz | Another one is db-cache | Jan 07 00:21 |
| schestowitz | DB cache -- rather than caching pages -- look at similar queries | Jan 07 00:21 |
| schestowitz | For instance, fetching of comment X or sidebar contents | Jan 07 00:21 |
| schestowitz | The issue with the latter is that it cached also user logins and stuff | Jan 07 00:21 |
| schestowitz | So people could not log in to comment, unless they waited for cache to expire, which was funny :-) | Jan 07 00:22 |
| tessier | Are there any unnecessary plugins that can be turned off? Aside from the caching stuff? | Jan 07 00:23 |
| schestowitz | So now I have just supercache, which is enabled and caches about 1000 pages at any given time (it's expiry based, with time set to about 10 hours). Since mostly newer items are fetched (including RSS), this probably helps a good deal | Jan 07 00:23 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yes | Jan 07 00:23 |
| tessier | Supercache should be good | Jan 07 00:23 |
| schestowitz | Let me see what I have | Jan 07 00:23 |
| schestowitz | I think the comments put pressure on the DB | Jan 07 00:23 |
| tessier | The WP optimization guide I read said that unnecessary plugins make caching hard. | Jan 07 00:23 |
| tessier | And hit performance. | Jan 07 00:23 |
| tessier | Comments are nice to have though. | Jan 07 00:23 |
| schestowitz | I use a plugin for threaded comments, from a previous version (it's not built in, but I would lose structure of comments if it's disabled) | Jan 07 00:23 |
| tessier | But the comment pages themselves should be cached. | Jan 07 00:24 |
| tessier | Only when someone posts a comment should the db get hit | Jan 07 00:24 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yes, when I required login to comment I reduced # of comments a lot, in newer posts | Jan 07 00:24 |
| schestowitz | We used to get far more comments beforehand, including abusive and anonymous trolls | Jan 07 00:24 |
| tessier | I don't care for having to login to comment but with spam it has become almost necessary | Jan 07 00:24 |
| tessier | right | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | :-) | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | LEt me check plguins | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | wp-cron | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | That's called a lot | Jan 07 00:25 |
| tessier | What does it do? | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | I think a time-based plugin uses it | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | For timing, to see whether to invoke action | Jan 07 00:25 |
| schestowitz | It's like a simple polling thing | Jan 07 00:25 |
| *schestowitz just disabled a scarcely-used plguin | Jan 07 00:27 | |
| *cubezzz2 (n=cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 00:29 | |
| tessier | Were you able to login? | Jan 07 00:30 |
| tessier | http://varnish.projects.linpro.no/wiki/VarnishAndWordpress is the WP tuning page I'm looking at | Jan 07 00:31 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Error processing the URL: .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 07 00:31 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yes, I'm in. I used another route (with the wildcards you mentioned) to get inside. | Jan 07 00:33 |
| tessier | Ok | Jan 07 00:33 |
| schestowitz | tessier: thanks a lot! | Jan 07 00:33 |
| tessier | welcome | Jan 07 00:33 |
| *cubezzz has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jan 07 00:46 | |
| *cubezzz2 is now known as cubezzz | Jan 07 00:46 | |
| *Tallken has quit ("Leaving") | Jan 07 00:49 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #WindowsMobile Suffers Another Defeat Amid #Linux Triumphs http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/recent-delay-xperia-x2-uk-canceled/ | Jan 07 01:02 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Windows Mobile Suffers Another Defeat Amid Linux Triumphs | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.55 KB | Jan 07 01:02 |
| cubezzz | TRIUMPH! ;-) | Jan 07 01:05 |
| cubezzz | and they're Canadian eh? | Jan 07 01:06 |
| cubezzz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_(band) | Jan 07 01:06 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Triumph (band) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 58.59 KB | Jan 07 01:06 |
| *pentarex has quit ("AA is For Quitters !!! :D") | Jan 07 01:08 | |
| trmanco | hey,don't make fun of us :-P | Jan 07 01:12 |
| trmanco | CUPS and the CUPS logo are trademarks of Apple Inc. CUPS is copyright 2007-2009 Apple Inc. All rights reserved. | Jan 07 01:21 |
| trmanco | LOL | Jan 07 01:21 |
| trmanco | it has an improved web interface | Jan 07 01:21 |
| trmanco | it looks better than the last one | Jan 07 01:21 |
| *ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 01:23 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple 's Number 1 Product: Fake Hype http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/apple-controls-coverage/ | Jan 07 01:32 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Apples #1 Product: Fake Hype | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.35 KB | Jan 07 01:32 |
| schestowitz | Wow. Something very strange happened. I think the caching made a post of mine disappear | Jan 07 01:33 |
| schestowitz | One one post overwrite the previous | Jan 07 01:33 |
| trmanco | that's weird | Jan 07 01:36 |
| schestowitz | And now come the zombies | Jan 07 01:37 |
| schestowitz | load average: 16.98, 7.32, 3.55 | Jan 07 01:37 |
| *DaemonFC (n=chatzill@c-69-245-224-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 01:41 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] FSA to charge iSoft founder and three former directors | Business | guardian.co.uk http://tinyurl.com/y9d8v4o | Jan 07 01:44 | |
| schestowitz | OMG, I see what happens now | Jan 07 01:55 |
| schestowitz | It sort of overrides the older posts | Jan 07 01:55 |
| schestowitz | Amazingly lame | Jan 07 01:55 |
| schestowitz | tessier: there's some funny effect on the editing process | Jan 07 01:58 |
| tessier | I see... | Jan 07 01:58 |
| schestowitz | There's also more of those rogue machines on the server in the past 30 minutes | Jan 07 01:59 |
| tessier | It is always mysql getting hammered that does it. | Jan 07 02:00 |
| DaemonFC | COPS!!!! | Jan 07 02:00 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 02:00 |
| tessier | Is /wp-admin/admin-ajax.php something you are polling? | Jan 07 02:00 |
| schestowitz | The IPs come from different places altogether | Jan 07 02:00 |
| tessier | Seems to be getting hit rather often. | Jan 07 02:00 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yes | Jan 07 02:01 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yes, when editing it polls | Jan 07 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | HP used to have ads with the catch phrase "The computer is personal again" | Jan 07 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | Nintendo should have one that says "The PC is boring again" | Jan 07 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | I still need to figure out how to use the Wiimote in Linux | Jan 07 02:03 |
| DaemonFC | some guy had it set up to control Totem | Jan 07 02:03 |
| DaemonFC | to where you can use gestures to maneuver through the playlist | Jan 07 02:04 |
| schestowitz | It's going sort of crazy with editing | Jan 07 02:04 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I found that Windows Media Player imposes a frequency cutoff on AAC files that is lower than the AAC file is encoded at | Jan 07 02:05 |
| tessier | schestowitz: Why does it have to poll anything when you are editing something? | Jan 07 02:07 |
| schestowitz | Oh, I KNOW what happened..... | Jan 07 02:09 |
| schestowitz | When O reopen a page like "edit.php" | Jan 07 02:09 |
| schestowitz | Then it treated is as cacheable | Jan 07 02:09 |
| schestowitz | So when I started a new post it reopened to previous one | Jan 07 02:10 |
| schestowitz | Luckily, I lost no data | Jan 07 02:10 |
| schestowitz | But at least I now have an explanation and I know it's under control | Jan 07 02:11 |
| schestowitz | tessier: WOrdPress autosaves and checks changes that I make | Jan 07 02:11 |
| rnb | eh? i never saw WP do that | Jan 07 02:11 |
| rnb | weird | Jan 07 02:11 |
| tessier | Does this prevent you from editing the site? Do I need to fix something? | Jan 07 02:11 |
| schestowitz | rnb: it doesn't, but we are caching a lot | Jan 07 02:11 |
| schestowitz | tessier: I have a workaround | Jan 07 02:11 |
| rnb | schestowitz: do you know if your server is running APC or zend caching? | Jan 07 02:11 |
| schestowitz | I had some other tricks to working around cache | Jan 07 02:11 |
| tessier | Ok well let me know if this causes you problems. So far the cache isn't working nearly as well as I would like but I'll keep fine tuning it as i learn more about varnish. | Jan 07 02:12 |
| tessier | This *should* help us weather DDoS much more easily but something still isn't quite right. | Jan 07 02:12 |
| schestowitz | tessier: is the plan to keep this setup temporarily until those spikes cease? | Jan 07 02:12 |
| tessier | schestowitz: I would like to keep it permanently if I makes things as much faster as it should and does not cause you problems. | Jan 07 02:13 |
| tessier | s/I/it/ | Jan 07 02:13 |
| schestowitz | The thing is, we can't do comments, rating, and I can't preview posts when they are drafts | Jan 07 02:14 |
| tessier | I can turn off caching for any parts of the site that cannot handle it. | Jan 07 02:14 |
| tessier | Ok....let me turn off the cookies thing then and see how it goes. | Jan 07 02:14 |
| tessier | Turn off the cookie filtering, that is. | Jan 07 02:14 |
| tessier | Ok, try it now | Jan 07 02:15 |
| schestowitz | The Wiki has the cookie thing too :-) | Jan 07 02:16 |
| tessier | Right. I turned off cookie filtering for the whole site. | Jan 07 02:17 |
| tessier | With supercache and varnish in front the site should be able to handle a slashdotting. | Jan 07 02:17 |
| tessier | If everything is configured properly | Jan 07 02:17 |
| schestowitz | Nice. Previews and comments now work | Jan 07 02:18 |
| schestowitz | As far it as I can tell... let's see the Wiki | Jan 07 02:18 |
| schestowitz | tessier: thanks so much, let me look... | Jan 07 02:18 |
| tessier | A site is supposed to only send cookies for logged in users. But my understanding is that WordPress sends cookies for pretty much everything which makes it uncacheabe. | Jan 07 02:18 |
| tessier | uncacheable | Jan 07 02:18 |
| tessier | But graphics and css and js etc. should be cacheable. | Jan 07 02:19 |
| tessier | Unfortunately it's the actual dynamically generated pages and resulting database load that kills a server. | Jan 07 02:19 |
| rnb | tessier: that's PHP sending the cookies, right? | Jan 07 02:19 |
| tessier | rnb: Not sure. | Jan 07 02:20 |
| rnb | tessier: it'll send the cookie if you use sessions anywhere and it doesnt know if your app user is logged in or not | Jan 07 02:20 |
| tessier | rnb: I thought if the user didn't have a valid cookie they aren't logged in? | Jan 07 02:21 |
| schestowitz | tessier: it caches the wiki too. Very nice! | Jan 07 02:26 |
| tessier | It didn't before? | Jan 07 02:26 |
| tessier | I mean as of a few minutes ago... | Jan 07 02:27 |
| schestowitz | tessier: it works well now (the Wiki editing). The thing that might confuse people is that after editing the page appears without the changes cause it gives again the caches version (old). | Jan 07 02:27 |
| schestowitz | tessier: beforehand it said I needed cookies to log in | Jan 07 02:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gartner Group Acquires More #Microsoft Boosters #burton http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/gartner-burton-group/ | Jan 07 02:27 | |
| tessier | A shift-reload might get you an uncached version of the page | Jan 07 02:28 |
| tessier | Although my understanding is that varnish does not cache if you have cookies set. So they should get a fresh version of the page. | Jan 07 02:28 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Gartner Group Acquires More Microsoft Boosters | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 91.55 KB | Jan 07 02:28 |
| tessier | Logged in users usually don't get anything cached. | Jan 07 02:28 |
| rnb | rnb: well, i dont know exactly how WP works but i imagine it sets a $_SESSION variable to indicate login | Jan 07 02:29 |
| rnb | er, that was to tessier | Jan 07 02:29 |
| rnb | tessier: but PHP will send a cookie to establish a session with any un-sessioned client it comes across | Jan 07 02:29 |
| tessier | rnb: How do people cache that then? | Jan 07 02:30 |
| rnb | tessier: cache what? | Jan 07 02:30 |
| schestowitz | tessier: in MediaWiki it just returns the cahce version, so I append ?dlfjklfkldsnf to get something current | Jan 07 02:30 |
| tessier | rnb: How do they cache the pages if each one is unique? | Jan 07 02:31 |
| tessier | And not accidentally give a page generated for one user to another user? | Jan 07 02:31 |
| rnb | tessier: oh, well, each one isnt unique unless the session ID is appended in a request string on every URI on the site | Jan 07 02:32 |
| rnb | tessier: and i dont think WP does that | Jan 07 02:32 |
| rnb | tessier: let me see, i have a WP installed somewhere | Jan 07 02:32 |
| tessier | rnb: Right but then the page with custom content on it for that user gets cached and when someone requests the same url they get the previous user's page. | Jan 07 02:32 |
| tessier | Appending request strings to URIs is nast and not very ReSTful. | Jan 07 02:33 |
| tessier | nasty | Jan 07 02:33 |
| schestowitz | tessier: here's the thing: | Jan 07 02:34 |
| schestowitz | I found workarounds | Jan 07 02:34 |
| schestowitz | Basically, when I'm logged on, pages with the same URL may get cached | Jan 07 02:34 |
| schestowitz | In which case, it may not serve unique pages for the same URL | Jan 07 02:35 |
| rnb | tessier: oh well, i dont know how WP's cache works specifically | Jan 07 02:36 |
| *trmanco has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 07 02:37 | |
| rnb | tessier: but APC or something will cache opcodes that dont change per user | Jan 07 02:38 |
| rnb | tessier: i figure WP only caches static content | Jan 07 02:38 |
| rnb | tessier: not, like, the menu that includes login info | Jan 07 02:39 |
| tessier | The wp supercache module is designed to turn dynamically generated pages like a wiki into static content | Jan 07 02:40 |
| tessier | So the db doesn't have to be hit for every page rendering | Jan 07 02:40 |
| tessier | That is the whole point of caching. | Jan 07 02:41 |
| tessier | Caching jpg an gif etc buys relatively little. | Jan 07 02:41 |
| tessier | MySQL on boycottnovell.com often consumes two whole 200% cpu time | Jan 07 02:41 |
| tessier | Right now I am looking at top and seeing it at 142% | Jan 07 02:42 |
| tessier | Not a big deal for me but it makes the site vulnerable to attack when it is easily run out of cpu. | Jan 07 02:42 |
| schestowitz | tessier: supercache has several modes | Jan 07 02:52 |
| schestowitz | In the current mode, it checks if the pages is already cached. If so, it gets served | Jan 07 02:52 |
| schestowitz | But nothing is made permanent | Jan 07 02:52 |
| tessier | What do you mean by permanent? | Jan 07 02:55 |
| tessier | And what are the other modes? | Jan 07 02:55 |
| jose_X | tessier, i think that varnish looks in the cache whenever the config logic reaches "lookup". If cookies come in, then the variable req.http.cookie in the config file will be the string of cookies and it will not cache.. unless you intercept before the check is made and clear out req.http.cookie. | Jan 07 03:07 |
| jose_X | so the trick is to clear req.http.cookie most of the time (to cache) but leave it in place when necessary (eg, to comment, perhaps). | Jan 07 03:08 |
| jose_X | the way varnish was set up earlier, login in to wordpress leaves the proper cookie in your browser ready to be sent to the server when requested (eg, by javascript). ie, the cookie info for users is always available in the browser (until expire or deleted). | Jan 07 03:10 |
| jose_X | rnb, what i am saying is what i think but have not tested. i believe wordpress uses the php set cookie functions (this is what the docs said and the code comments though i stopped reading). | Jan 07 03:11 |
| jose_X | tessier, so the varnish config file can check for a marker (a cookie named "whatever-you-want-as-marker-name") on every request. | Jan 07 03:11 |
| jose_X | instead of automatically unsetting the cookie string, it can leave it when it finds the marker cookie in the set | Jan 07 03:12 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/01/06/oregon.unruly.passenger/ | Jan 07 03:12 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Fighter jets escort plane to after passenger becomes unruly - CNN.com .::. Size~: 47.45 KB | Jan 07 03:12 |
| jose_X | this check can be done in vcl language (in config file) with something that looks like a regular expression check | Jan 07 03:12 |
| jose_X | so we cache except when we find this marker. | Jan 07 03:13 |
| jose_X | the marker cookie will be set by javascript | Jan 07 03:13 |
| jose_X | javascript will also remove the marker cookie | Jan 07 03:13 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Under Fire: Open Source Software Thematic Group Complains About EIFv2 Subversion http://ur1.ca/j7de | Jan 07 03:13 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft Under Fire: Open Source Software Thematic Group Complains About EIFv2 Subversion, NHS Software Supplier Under Criminal Investigation | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 101.67 KB | Jan 07 03:13 |
| jose_X | basically when any page loads javascript removes that marker | Jan 07 03:13 |
| DaemonFC | only took them 8 years to think of chasing planes that might have been hijacked with fighter jets | Jan 07 03:14 |
| DaemonFC | that's the government | Jan 07 03:14 |
| jose_X | then if the user is logging in, javascript sets the marker right before the form values get shipped out (javascript onclick) | Jan 07 03:14 |
| rnb | tessier: yeah, thats what i meant by 'caching static content' | Jan 07 03:15 |
| rnb | tessier: because you can cache other things, too, like opcodes, compiled templates, etc | Jan 07 03:15 |
| jose_X | the returned page after login has the cookie values necessary and because of the marker, this returned page will have the comment section present. | Jan 07 03:15 |
| rnb | jose_X: yeah, WP might use the setcookie thing | Jan 07 03:16 |
| jose_X | so when this page returns, javascript removes the marker cookie but if the user submits a comment then the marker then gets added again and that comment will be passed through (just like the login info) by varnish | Jan 07 03:16 |
| rnb | jose_X: in which case what i said about the session cookie for users who arent logged in isnt entirely valid | Jan 07 03:16 |
| rnb | or, valid at all, for that matter | Jan 07 03:17 |
| jose_X | rnb, http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_set_auth_cookie | Jan 07 03:17 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Function Reference/wp set auth cookie « WordPress Codex .::. Size~: 10.31 KB | Jan 07 03:17 |
| rnb | jose_X: mm, there you go | Jan 07 03:18 |
| jose_X | http://phpxref.ftwr.co.uk/wordpress/nav.html?wp-includes/pluggable.php.source.html | Jan 07 03:18 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: WordPress, bbPress, GlotPress and BackPress phpxref .::. Size~: 1.47 KB | Jan 07 03:18 |
| rnb | sorry, i'm tired and confused | Jan 07 03:18 |
| rnb | i woke up today at 0030 | Jan 07 03:18 |
| rnb | and i've been awake since then | Jan 07 03:18 |
| jose_X | also this one but its deprecated http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_setcookie | Jan 07 03:18 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Function Reference/wp setcookie « WordPress Codex .::. Size~: 11.27 KB | Jan 07 03:19 |
| rnb | ... final days of a big project ... | Jan 07 03:19 |
| jose_X | rnb, i'm not sure how all of this works, but from what i can follow wp uses the php functions to manage users via cookies.. whether it uses one function or other | Jan 07 03:20 |
| rnb | i'm gonna check it out | Jan 07 03:20 |
| jose_X | tessier, so to recap. | Jan 07 03:21 |
| DaemonFC | it's always hard to tell what's deprecated when everything that is winds up staying in a repository somewhere for years | Jan 07 03:21 |
| jose_X | if we add a marker cookie in some requests, varnish can test for this and cache except in these cases. | Jan 07 03:22 |
| DaemonFC | I can't even count the number of dead-end programs I've seen in Ubuntu's repository | Jan 07 03:22 |
| jose_X | to set the marker cookie as little as possible, we employ a javascript function that always removes it upon page load | Jan 07 03:22 |
| DaemonFC | If it's still being developed in any meaningful way, it's too new for Debian | Jan 07 03:22 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 03:22 |
| jose_X | Meanwhile, two other javascript functions set the marker right before a request to the server. | Jan 07 03:23 |
| jose_X | these two functions only set it under very special circumstances. | Jan 07 03:23 |
| jose_X | 1- on the login page when submitting the login info | Jan 07 03:23 |
| jose_X | 2- from a comment submission click | Jan 07 03:23 |
| jose_X | each of these submit buttons can call javascript onclick before they take effect (I think, but can't remember) | Jan 07 03:24 |
| rnb | WP appears to set a cookie any time you hit the site and it doesnt have a cookie for you | Jan 07 03:25 |
| rnb | similar to what i was saying with php's session start | Jan 07 03:25 |
| rnb | Name: __utma | Jan 07 03:25 |
| rnb | Name: __utmb | Jan 07 03:25 |
| rnb | Name: __utmc | Jan 07 03:25 |
| rnb | Name: __utmz | Jan 07 03:26 |
| rnb | there we go; now we know | Jan 07 03:26 |
| jose_X | tessier, the trick here is that after the login, with marker set, varnish passes through so that wp gets the cookies and sends the page with the comments input box present. | Jan 07 03:26 |
| jose_X | along with the comment box, javascript is set up so that if a comment is sent, the marker will be set. | Jan 07 03:26 |
| jose_X | also, i just realized that instead of javascript always removing marker cookie on page load.. | Jan 07 03:27 |
| jose_X | it would be best to have varnish remove it once it finds it (right before passing through). This way wp doesn't get a cookie it doesn't understand. | Jan 07 03:27 |
| jose_X | no matter when the marker cookie is removed, at least for that one request varnish will respect the pass-through marker so that the bn page wp sends will have comments enabled. | Jan 07 03:28 |
| jose_X | i don't know if what i said would work or makes sense, but there you go. | Jan 07 03:28 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.geico.com/public/audio/somebodyswatchingme.mp3 | Jan 07 03:29 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting application/x-notknow type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 07 03:29 |
| DaemonFC | heh | Jan 07 03:29 |
| jose_X | [it makes sense to me, but if i'm missing something or if i wasn't clear, then it may not make sense to anyone else.] | Jan 07 03:29 |
| rnb | have any of you all seen the movie "In the Loop"? it came out this year | Jan 07 03:29 |
| jose_X | rnb, yeah, you might have been right about that... there are a lot of cookies set | Jan 07 03:29 |
| rnb | it's hilarious | Jan 07 03:29 |
| rnb | jose_X: yeah but it doesnt use that php session cookie like i was saying, so YOU were right about that | Jan 07 03:30 |
| jose_X | DaemonFC, deprecation is great. if people follow it it provides transition so that old and new works | Jan 07 03:30 |
| rnb | anyway, you can watch "In the Loop" here -> http://www.movshare.net/136893/video/bn8l4gixnj9s7 | Jan 07 03:30 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Watch www.iwannadownload.com In The Loop online | MovShare - Reliable video hosting .::. Size~: 14.63 KB | Jan 07 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | who the hell encoded this? | Jan 07 03:31 |
| rnb | YAH, OK, FUCKETY-BYE! | Jan 07 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | 160k CBR | Jan 07 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | that's a no-no | Jan 07 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | wonder if I can find it as FLAC | Jan 07 03:31 |
| rnb | hey, i'm new here | Jan 07 03:34 |
| rnb | i'm calling for a irl location check, hook me up | Jan 07 03:34 |
| rnb | <- san francisco 75% of the time, sao paulo 25% of the time | Jan 07 03:35 |
| rnb | trying to make that 50/50 this year | Jan 07 03:35 |
| schestowitz | [02:55] <tessier> And what are the other modes? | Jan 07 03:38 |
| rnb | c'mahhn .. schestowitz: where do you live? | Jan 07 03:38 |
| schestowitz | There is something more complicated that I tried to enable before without success. So I enabled almost everything there, but there is room for improvement perhaps | Jan 07 03:38 |
| jose_X | actually tessier, i was thinking, perhaps javascript should still remove the marker cookie at load time because the rewrite that varnish would do does not remove the cookie from the client.. also, the rewrite by varnish should still be done i think to avoid problems with wp getting that alien cookie. | Jan 07 03:38 |
| jose_X | if you figure out what i am talking about then maybe this will make some sense | Jan 07 03:39 |
| schestowitz | rnb: Manchester | Jan 07 03:39 |
| schestowitz | > Roy, | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > The following ad was at the top of my Yahoo Mail page, did a PDF print | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > of the image ("What Terrifies Bill Gates.pdf") | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > After clicking the link, is the page I saw in PDF #2. It is about cloud | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > computing. | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > As I don't know this company, I simply did not comply with my home | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > address for application. | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > I must admit that not all people like Bill Gates and Microsoft, but I | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | > would never expect to see that in Yahoo! | Jan 07 03:41 |
| schestowitz | Yes, that is funny indeed! | Jan 07 03:41 |
| rnb | jose_X: where do you live? | Jan 07 03:41 |
| jose_X | usa florida | Jan 07 03:41 |
| jose_X | i'll be back in a bit ..to log out. | Jan 07 03:45 |
| rnb | mm, florida.. my sister was living there | Jan 07 03:48 |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Lost terminal") | Jan 07 03:51 | |
| DaemonFC | Ron Paul tried quoting Gandhi, "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." | Jan 07 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | He must not realize the irony that in his case it's more like "First they ignore you, then they ignore you, then they ignore you some more....." | Jan 07 03:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] CIO Prediction: #Novell to be Acquired in 6 Months http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/cio-prediction-novell-hovsepian/ | Jan 07 03:54 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CIO Prediction: Novell to be Acquired in 6 Months | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 93.24 KB | Jan 07 03:54 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: I'm sure you're sure your Obama will bring change | Jan 07 03:55 |
| schestowitz | Change(R) | Jan 07 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | people only pay attention to the guy that sells big religion or gives out welfare checks | Jan 07 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | seems like that's all you have to do to be electable | Jan 07 03:57 |
| DaemonFC | besides, telling the big businesses off is the surest way to have 1% the campaign funds available to your opponents | Jan 07 03:58 |
| rnb | this first year has not been very good for obama's claim that he's bringing change | Jan 07 04:01 |
| rnb | especially on foreign policy | Jan 07 04:01 |
| *rnb lives in a one-party sham republic | Jan 07 04:01 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont blame Obama for that | Jan 07 04:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | I blame Congress. | Jan 07 04:05 |
| jose_X | for reference (tessier) this link https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/VarnishConfigs shows an example of what looks like regexp search on the req.http.Cookie string (not sure if this is same as req.http.cookie) | Jan 07 04:05 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 200 Ok .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 07 04:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | Obama asked for a simple bill to fix healthcare | Jan 07 04:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | Congress handed him a 1500 sham of a document in return. | Jan 07 04:06 |
| jose_X | see the end of the vcl_recv subroutine where the check leads to "pass" or else you fall through and "lookup" | Jan 07 04:06 |
| jose_X | also, here is an example of playing around with the cookie strings in javascript http://techpatterns.com/downloads/javascript_cookies.php | Jan 07 04:07 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Javascript Cookie Script: Get Cookie, Set Cookie, Delete Cookie Functions .::. Size~: 16.77 KB | Jan 07 04:07 |
| DaemonFC | Diablo-D3: The senate bill was closer to 2,000 pages | Jan 07 04:08 |
| DaemonFC | it's longer than War and Peace | Jan 07 04:08 |
| rnb | DaemonFC: it isnt one person in particular who is to blame for the one-party state we live in | Jan 07 04:08 |
| jose_X | to add the javascript you'd need to bypass the web interface of wordpress i think and for various reasons i don't think that will happen with bn (unless a plugin to make that failsafe and consistent exists) | Jan 07 04:09 |
| rnb | DaemonFC: it's been like this for some time | Jan 07 04:09 |
| DaemonFC | War and Peace is only 1,472 pages | Jan 07 04:09 |
| DaemonFC | much shorter than either version of the "healthcare" bill | Jan 07 04:09 |
| DaemonFC | and which congressperson or senator has read the whole thing? | Jan 07 04:10 |
| DaemonFC | and how much pork is it full of? | Jan 07 04:10 |
| DaemonFC | how much corporate welfare? | Jan 07 04:10 |
| rnb | agreed | Jan 07 04:10 |
| jose_X | DaemonFC, i think you are talking about the supersized value war and peace | Jan 07 04:11 |
| jose_X | paperback is over 4,000,000 pages | Jan 07 04:11 |
| jose_X | :-) | Jan 07 04:11 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think a single person knew what they were voting for exactly | Jan 07 04:11 |
| rnb | well, they have interns and assistants who read them and then brief them | Jan 07 04:11 |
| *jose_X has quit ("Leaving") | Jan 07 04:12 | |
| DaemonFC | and it exempts a few states from paying for their share of Medicaid just because their senators threatened not to vote for the bill otherwise | Jan 07 04:12 |
| rnb | but, whether they vote for it or not is all part of a complicated power game | Jan 07 04:12 |
| DaemonFC | the rest of the country has to pick up the tab | Jan 07 04:12 |
| rnb | yes, it does! | Jan 07 04:12 |
| rnb | classic | Jan 07 04:12 |
| rnb | i want my free health care | Jan 07 04:12 |
| rnb | and i want it right fkn now. | Jan 07 04:12 |
| rnb | that's all i care about ... when do i get it? | Jan 07 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | Louisiana is being paid like $3 million in subsidies for parts of Medicaid that the state should pay for | Jan 07 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | out of Federal money | Jan 07 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 07 04:13 |
| rnb | but, unfortunately, i think the answer is as soon as my permanent residency in another country comes through | Jan 07 04:13 |
| rnb | well, louisiana hasnt had money for a long, long time | Jan 07 04:14 |
| DaemonFC | it would be nice if someone demanded those provisions stripped before it went back for the simple majority vote | Jan 07 04:14 |
| DaemonFC | it's not right that every American should be paying for the STATE portion of Louisiana's Medicaid expenses | Jan 07 04:15 |
| rnb | but they need those votes | Jan 07 04:15 |
| DaemonFC | everyone in every other state is being cheated | Jan 07 04:15 |
| rnb | the whole damn bill cheats us | Jan 07 04:15 |
| DaemonFC | Nevada got the same deal | Jan 07 04:15 |
| rnb | it went from public option -> mandatory, private non-option | Jan 07 04:16 |
| rnb | and if they think i'm going to buy private health insurance just because it's the law to do so, they are sadly mistaken | Jan 07 04:16 |
| DaemonFC | well, they'll just steal it right back out of your paycheck in fines | Jan 07 04:17 |
| DaemonFC | so there's no way out of it | Jan 07 04:17 |
| rnb | currently, my free health care is that i just dont pay my bills | Jan 07 04:17 |
| DaemonFC | same here | Jan 07 04:17 |
| DaemonFC | I owe $5,000 in medical bills | Jan 07 04:17 |
| rnb | i owe roughly twice that | Jan 07 04:17 |
| DaemonFC | for a rip to the ER where they gave me an IV of anti-seizure medication and sent me home with bruises in my arms that went right down to the bone | Jan 07 04:18 |
| DaemonFC | those fuckers think I'm paying them a penny, they can think again | Jan 07 04:18 |
| rnb | yeah, i was gonna say, you don't get much for $5k | Jan 07 04:18 |
| rnb | anyhow, i'm getting the hell out of this country | Jan 07 04:18 |
| DaemonFC | that happened in September and there are still a couple positions I can't move my arms to that I could before | Jan 07 04:19 |
| DaemonFC | mainly it doesn't bother me unless I have to scratch the middle of my back | Jan 07 04:19 |
| rnb | DaemonFC: where do you live? | Jan 07 04:19 |
| DaemonFC | so I've taken to rubbing up against the wall instead :P | Jan 07 04:19 |
| DaemonFC | Indiana | Jan 07 04:19 |
| rnb | oh, yeah? i'm originally from ohio | Jan 07 04:20 |
| rnb | which, you know, is right next door to you | Jan 07 04:20 |
| DaemonFC | about 30 miles to the east | Jan 07 04:20 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, before the drinking age went up to 21 everywhere, my mom said that her and all her friends drove to Ohio every weekend cause the drinking age was 18 there | Jan 07 04:21 |
| rnb | oh, that must have been before my time | Jan 07 04:21 |
| DaemonFC | the Feds got all the states to raise it by threatening them with withholding their "highway grants" | Jan 07 04:21 |
| rnb | when i was a teenager, we would go and spend a weekend in canada because their drinking age is 18 | Jan 07 04:22 |
| rnb | ironically, thats also where you can go to get some free health care | Jan 07 04:22 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, the Feds tax the states then offer to return some of it if the state does what the feds tell them to | Jan 07 04:22 |
| DaemonFC | nice racket huh? | Jan 07 04:22 |
| rnb | sure, thats been going on forever | Jan 07 04:22 |
| DaemonFC | I'd just swipe it from my step dad | Jan 07 04:22 |
| DaemonFC | he was such an alcoholic, he never knew if there was a 6 pack missing | Jan 07 04:23 |
| rnb | do you live in ft. wayne? | Jan 07 04:23 |
| DaemonFC | lol | Jan 07 04:23 |
| *Ender2070 (n=Ender207@bas1-toronto12-1167878414.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 04:23 | |
| DaemonFC | near Ft Wayne | Jan 07 04:23 |
| rnb | speaking of canadians... here's one now | Jan 07 04:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #China Given Another Reason to Abandon Proprietary Software — $2,200,000,000 #Lawsuit http://ur1.ca/j7i6 | Jan 07 04:23 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: China Given Another Reason to Abandon Proprietary Software $2,200,000,000 Lawsuit | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 95.1 KB | Jan 07 04:23 |
| rnb | i'm prejudiced against canadians | Jan 07 04:23 |
| DaemonFC | because some of them speak French? | Jan 07 04:24 |
| DaemonFC | no reason to hate the rest of them | Jan 07 04:24 |
| Ender2070 | Je parles anglais.... | Jan 07 04:24 |
| DaemonFC | I hate you | Jan 07 04:24 |
| DaemonFC | there :P | Jan 07 04:24 |
| rnb | oh, i like the quebecois | Jan 07 04:24 |
| rnb | but they arent canadians | Jan 07 04:24 |
| Ender2070 | i just about died laughing after seeing this thing | Jan 07 04:25 |
| Ender2070 | http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/518539 | Jan 07 04:25 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: OSS Lefty Sound Board .::. Size~: 67.23 KB | Jan 07 04:25 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, they're like the Palestinians of Canada, only they don't blow people up | Jan 07 04:25 |
| DaemonFC | I guess | Jan 07 04:25 |
| DaemonFC | just annoying as fuck | Jan 07 04:25 |
| rnb | they dont blow people up ... anymore | Jan 07 04:25 |
| rnb | they used to | Jan 07 04:25 |
| DaemonFC | it's hard to picture Canadians being particularly violent | Jan 07 04:26 |
| DaemonFC | it's like Disney World for American bank robbers | Jan 07 04:26 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 04:26 |
| DaemonFC | there was some American guy that went up there armed with a shotgun | Jan 07 04:26 |
| rnb | well they have a long history of violence against the indigenous population | Jan 07 04:26 |
| DaemonFC | and robbed 52 Canadian banks before they caught him | Jan 07 04:27 |
| DaemonFC | That would _not_ happen here | Jan 07 04:27 |
| rnb | thats not a bad idea | Jan 07 04:27 |
| rnb | oh i dont know about that | Jan 07 04:27 |
| DaemonFC | you _might_ knock over one or two before they catch you | Jan 07 04:27 |
| rnb | people get away with bank robberies all the time but they kind of keep that hush-hush | Jan 07 04:27 |
| rnb | oh, no way | Jan 07 04:27 |
| rnb | you can go on lengthy bank robbery sprees here | Jan 07 04:27 |
| DaemonFC | and by catch, I mean the coroner doesn't bother trying to count the number of bullets the police shot you with | Jan 07 04:28 |
| rnb | the trend these days is pharmacy robberies | Jan 07 04:28 |
| rnb | there was a pharmacy robbery duo in ohio recently and they hit something like 30 of them before one of them got caught | Jan 07 04:28 |
| DaemonFC | you don't fuck with the big money people, you'll end up dead for it | Jan 07 04:28 |
| DaemonFC | and the police are basically their assassination squads | Jan 07 04:29 |
| rnb | http://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconblog/2008/07/more_on_fbi_bank_robbery_stati.html | Jan 07 04:30 |
| DaemonFC | you're more likely to get shot for robbing a bank than anything else, other than shooting at the police of course | Jan 07 04:30 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: More on FBI bank robbery statistics - Beacon Blog .::. Size~: 42.66 KB | Jan 07 04:30 |
| DaemonFC | Casinos don't even bother waiting for the cops, they have their own security thats armed to the teeth that will kill you just to retrieve the money | Jan 07 04:30 |
| DaemonFC | Las Vegas casino security even has AR-15s | Jan 07 04:31 |
| schestowitz | Ender2070: didn't yo momma teach you not to make fun of retards? | Jan 07 04:34 |
| rnb | DaemonFC: are you born/raised in indiana? | Jan 07 04:41 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Jan 07 04:42 |
| rnb | is the job market decimated there? | Jan 07 04:43 |
| rnb | where i grew up in ohio, it's the worst it has been in a long time | Jan 07 04:43 |
| rnb | which is pretty hard to achieve because it's been terrible for decades | Jan 07 04:43 |
| DaemonFC | rnb: It's not the best I've ever seen it, but it's rebounding | Jan 07 04:43 |
| DaemonFC | most of the jobs lost in this area have been replaced with better paying ones | Jan 07 04:44 |
| DaemonFC | it worked out for the best I suppose | Jan 07 04:44 |
| rnb | http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20091218/BIZ/912189970/1031/BIZ | Jan 07 04:45 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Indiana jobless rate holds steady | The Journal Gazette, Fort Wayne, Ind. .::. Size~: 30.94 KB | Jan 07 04:45 |
| rnb | better-paying ones? in what industry? | Jan 07 04:45 |
| DaemonFC | Michigan is losing a LOT of auto manufacturing, which is being consolidated here | Jan 07 04:46 |
| DaemonFC | various light industrial stuff too | Jan 07 04:46 |
| rnb | i see | Jan 07 04:46 |
| DaemonFC | Michigan lost at least 5,000 jobs from GM that I know of | Jan 07 04:46 |
| DaemonFC | enough of the work came here to add about 1,200 jobs in Ft Wayne | Jan 07 04:47 |
| DaemonFC | their suppliers are doing the same thing | Jan 07 04:47 |
| rnb | yeah.. detroit competes with cleveland every year for the poorest metropolitan area in the us | Jan 07 04:47 |
| DaemonFC | Hayes Lemmerz (makes wheel rims and stuff) fired 500 people in Michigan, brought 100 jobs here | Jan 07 04:47 |
| rnb | it's hard to imagine that both of those cities used to be boom cities | Jan 07 04:47 |
| DaemonFC | some Canadian company making grills just opened up an idle factory here that's been empty for a few years | Jan 07 04:48 |
| DaemonFC | 300 jobs there starting at $11 an hour | Jan 07 04:48 |
| rnb | mm, $11/hr isnt bad for that area | Jan 07 04:48 |
| DaemonFC | Marion has gotten 200 GM jobs out of however many body parts workers GM fired in Michigan | Jan 07 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | rnb: The jobs in the factory from the place that was there before started at around $9 an hour | Jan 07 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | so $2 an hour raise for everyone that works there now | Jan 07 04:50 |
| rnb | yeah, in canton/akron, the layoffs at republic/ltv steel & timken have been devastating | Jan 07 04:50 |
| rnb | my dad worked at republic steel for 34 years and they are trying to sell their house | Jan 07 04:50 |
| rnb | but there are something like 4,000 other houses in the similar price range up for sale right now in the same area | Jan 07 04:50 |
| DaemonFC | the state has been basically offering them 10-20 year tax exempt status, ubsidies | Jan 07 04:50 |
| rnb | as all of those laid-off or early-retirement workers try to flee | Jan 07 04:51 |
| DaemonFC | anything that gets them here instead of another state | Jan 07 04:51 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, lots of ghost towns sprung up over the last 2 years in a lot of places | Jan 07 04:51 |
| rnb | ohio has some military manufacturing going on so that helps, given the outrageous amount of money being spent on illegal warfare | Jan 07 04:52 |
| DaemonFC | the F-22 Raptor contracts being canceled | Jan 07 04:52 |
| DaemonFC | nobody wanted them but Congress tried funding them anyway cause of all their constituents working to build them | Jan 07 04:52 |
| DaemonFC | it was pork in so many districts that they voted to build a fighter jet we don't even need | Jan 07 04:53 |
| rnb | when i was younger, i worked at a factory in dayton that made one particular type of manufacturing hardware used in fighter jets | Jan 07 04:53 |
| DaemonFC | it only failed to pass cause of a few votes | Jan 07 04:53 |
| cubezzz | I was in Dayton once, at NCR | Jan 07 04:54 |
| rnb | well, nafta was the final nail in the coffin for the ohio steel & rubber industry | Jan 07 04:55 |
| DaemonFC | rnb: Someone from California was making fun of Indiana | Jan 07 04:55 |
| DaemonFC | I told him I got a check for my tax refund that wasn't made payable to "IOU" | Jan 07 04:55 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jan 07 04:55 |
| rnb | i mean, the unions were mostly dead before that but nafta is what buried the grave | Jan 07 04:55 |
| rnb | eh, californians are assholes | Jan 07 04:55 |
| rnb | i really dont like living here | Jan 07 04:56 |
| rnb | i wish the dot-com industry was headquartered someone else | Jan 07 04:56 |
| rnb | so i wouldnt be trapped here | Jan 07 04:56 |
| DaemonFC | when the levees break and their drinking water for half the state turns into salt water..... | Jan 07 04:56 |
| DaemonFC | I'll be watching their evacuation while eating my popcorn | Jan 07 04:56 |
| rnb | we can also pray for the earthquake which sinks california | Jan 07 04:56 |
| rnb | do you work at a tech job there? | Jan 07 04:57 |
| DaemonFC | California is like "We won't execute a child murderer, but people that have the gay can't marry" | Jan 07 04:58 |
| DaemonFC | it's the biggest group of people you've ever said "WTF!?" over | Jan 07 04:58 |
| rnb | i can always tell a native californian | Jan 07 04:58 |
| rnb | they are pretentious and superficial and are too chicken-shit to tell you to your face what they think | Jan 07 04:58 |
| DaemonFC | all about appearance | Jan 07 04:59 |
| rnb | unlike the steel belt and east of there, where everyone tells you exactly what they think, no matter how offensive | Jan 07 04:59 |
| DaemonFC | the cost of living is so high, you can make $20 an hour stocking groceries at the supermarket | Jan 07 04:59 |
| DaemonFC | it's insane | Jan 07 04:59 |
| rnb | yeah, cost of living is nuts | Jan 07 04:59 |
| rnb | fireman have to make 6-figure salaries here | Jan 07 05:00 |
| rnb | *firemen | Jan 07 05:00 |
| DaemonFC | I heard one guy say he made like $20-something an hour to stock groceries | Jan 07 05:00 |
| rnb | i believe it | Jan 07 05:01 |
| DaemonFC | that's more than a nurse starts out at here | Jan 07 05:01 |
| DaemonFC | but if you're paying $1,200 in rent for the same apartment that costs $450 here | Jan 07 05:02 |
| rnb | the minimum wage here is still too low, though | Jan 07 05:02 |
| DaemonFC | $250 in groceries would be like $100 here | Jan 07 05:02 |
| rnb | $1200 in rent! | Jan 07 05:02 |
| rnb | i wish! | Jan 07 05:02 |
| rnb | it's hard to find a place in SF that is under $2k/mo | Jan 07 05:02 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm | Jan 07 05:03 |
| DaemonFC | that's crazy | Jan 07 05:03 |
| rnb | yes indeed | Jan 07 05:03 |
| rnb | that's in the city, though | Jan 07 05:03 |
| rnb | there are cheaper places in the suburbs but the subway runs to those areas | Jan 07 05:03 |
| rnb | so you can live in daly city or something and pay ~ $1100 - $1800/mo | Jan 07 05:04 |
| *cubezzz2 (n=cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 05:04 | |
| DaemonFC | and only an hour to get to work for the trouble? | Jan 07 05:04 |
| rnb | my rent every year is more than my parents make for the year | Jan 07 05:04 |
| rnb | well, yeah.. | Jan 07 05:04 |
| DaemonFC | meh, I wouldn't put up with that | Jan 07 05:05 |
| rnb | actually, BART is pretty good.. daly city is only about 25-30 mins from downtown | Jan 07 05:05 |
| rnb | yeah but the income potential is much higher than in the midwest | Jan 07 05:05 |
| rnb | so, i think you end up doing better out here | Jan 07 05:05 |
| DaemonFC | it's not helping you if you spend it all on cost of living | Jan 07 05:06 |
| rnb | if you really try, that is | Jan 07 05:06 |
| rnb | but i'm saying the difference between income and cost of living is such that you end up making more money living here | Jan 07 05:06 |
| rnb | and, potentially, a LOT more money if you get the right opportunity | Jan 07 05:07 |
| DaemonFC | not worth living in a tinderbox | Jan 07 05:07 |
| rnb | hey, believe me, i'm ready to get the hell out of here | Jan 07 05:07 |
| rnb | this year my goal is to live here less and less | Jan 07 05:08 |
| rnb | until i dont live here at all and i just come back now and then for business | Jan 07 05:08 |
| DaemonFC | it's like Florida | Jan 07 05:09 |
| DaemonFC | "Hey honey, there's an alligator on the car and another hurricane is coming!!! Let's stay!" | Jan 07 05:09 |
| rnb | that massive, devastating earthquake is SO overdue now | Jan 07 05:10 |
| DaemonFC | I moved there and it lasted about a month | Jan 07 05:10 |
| rnb | any day now ... | Jan 07 05:10 |
| rnb | florida? or CA? | Jan 07 05:10 |
| DaemonFC | Florida | Jan 07 05:10 |
| rnb | uff, my sister moved to florida | Jan 07 05:10 |
| rnb | why florida? | Jan 07 05:10 |
| rnb | i advised her against it | Jan 07 05:10 |
| DaemonFC | cause a friend said to move out there and I'd love it | Jan 07 05:11 |
| rnb | haha, thats why she did it, too | Jan 07 05:11 |
| DaemonFC | bad mistake | Jan 07 05:11 |
| rnb | what part of fl? | Jan 07 05:11 |
| DaemonFC | Tampa | Jan 07 05:12 |
| DaemonFC | bad traffic and Cubans | Jan 07 05:12 |
| rnb | uff, yeah, my sister lived near there | Jan 07 05:12 |
| rnb | in a city called Orange, i think? | Jan 07 05:12 |
| rnb | or Orange City | Jan 07 05:12 |
| rnb | or something | Jan 07 05:12 |
| DaemonFC | you have to remember not to leave your car windows cracked, not even a little | Jan 07 05:12 |
| rnb | obnoxious, ultra right-wing cubans | Jan 07 05:12 |
| DaemonFC | you may wake up and find Cubans living in it | Jan 07 05:12 |
| DaemonFC | they reset all the controls and everything, it's horrible :D | Jan 07 05:13 |
| rnb | or a family of rednecks who make their kids sell the meth they make | Jan 07 05:13 |
| DaemonFC | Florida isn't that bad on Meth | Jan 07 05:13 |
| DaemonFC | Indiana is the worst | Jan 07 05:13 |
| rnb | but it is on rednecks | Jan 07 05:13 |
| DaemonFC | followed by Missouri | Jan 07 05:13 |
| rnb | lots of meth in ohio, too | Jan 07 05:14 |
| DaemonFC | meth is cheap to make and Walmart has all the ingredients | Jan 07 05:14 |
| DaemonFC | who do you think will have it? | Jan 07 05:14 |
| rnb | yep | Jan 07 05:14 |
| rnb | meth is pretty big in the dot-com world, too | Jan 07 05:14 |
| rnb | but they get high-quality meth | Jan 07 05:14 |
| rnb | the really pink glass | Jan 07 05:14 |
| DaemonFC | my former stepdad's family are all in prison for meth | Jan 07 05:14 |
| DaemonFC | one lit a cigarette and ignited all the ingredients | Jan 07 05:15 |
| DaemonFC | blew up his car | Jan 07 05:15 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 05:15 |
| rnb | i know 3 or 4 old friends from ohio in prison for meth and/or crack | Jan 07 05:15 |
| DaemonFC | he jumped out, on fire, and rolled down the street | Jan 07 05:15 |
| DaemonFC | his car crashed into a street light | Jan 07 05:16 |
| rnb | nice | Jan 07 05:16 |
| DaemonFC | funniest damned thing I ever heard | Jan 07 05:16 |
| rnb | thats why people take meth... because you can really get things done on it! | Jan 07 05:16 |
| DaemonFC | "Lets light a cigarette in a car full of 20 things that can blow up!" | Jan 07 05:16 |
| rnb | let organizing all the matchsticks in your house 10 different ways | Jan 07 05:16 |
| DaemonFC | It's like even worse than those people that smoke in a fireworks factory | Jan 07 05:17 |
| Omar87 | .. | Jan 07 05:17 |
| *cubezzz has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jan 07 05:17 | |
| DaemonFC | meth is one of those things that you have to be suicidal to take | Jan 07 05:17 |
| Omar87 | hello everyone. | Jan 07 05:18 |
| rnb | sigh.. i'm so sick of the US | Jan 07 05:18 |
| DaemonFC | rnb: Have you seen The Evil Dead? | Jan 07 05:18 |
| rnb | yeah | Jan 07 05:18 |
| DaemonFC | that's what a meth user looks like at 6 months | Jan 07 05:18 |
| rnb | haha, yes | Jan 07 05:18 |
| rnb | and you'd think that they would be up and witty and so on | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | but it eventually has the opposite effect | Jan 07 05:19 |
| DaemonFC | no, it just wires them | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | and meth-heads are the most braindead zombies you've ever seen | Jan 07 05:19 |
| Omar87 | rnb: wow, it seems to me that you're trying to break the record in the number messages.. | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | even when they're ired | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | *wired | Jan 07 05:19 |
| DaemonFC | you'd have to be stupid to take it, period | Jan 07 05:19 |
| DaemonFC | they're wired and stupid | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | i've taken it | Jan 07 05:19 |
| DaemonFC | COPS anyone? :) | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | eh | Jan 07 05:19 |
| rnb | like i said, it's pretty popular in the dot-com scene here | Jan 07 05:20 |
| DaemonFC | I've used drugs | Jan 07 05:20 |
| DaemonFC | I would not touch meth | Jan 07 05:20 |
| rnb | meth is the new coke since all the coke in san francisco is terrible quality | Jan 07 05:20 |
| DaemonFC | so bad they'd use meth? | Jan 07 05:21 |
| DaemonFC | that's pretty bad alright | Jan 07 05:21 |
| rnb | well it also fits in with the insane schedules that come with being a dot-com shitworker | Jan 07 05:22 |
| DaemonFC | anything that makes you not sleep for 3 weeks sounds totally wrong for me | Jan 07 05:22 |
| rnb | upper management takes coke | Jan 07 05:22 |
| rnb | programmers take meth | Jan 07 05:22 |
| rnb | Omar87: where do you live? | Jan 07 05:22 |
| DaemonFC | upper management takes coke cause they can afford it and because they hate themselves for being empty suits | Jan 07 05:23 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 05:23 |
| DaemonFC | they take it out on you when they come down from the high | Jan 07 05:23 |
| Omar87 | rnb: does it matter? | Jan 07 05:23 |
| rnb | Omar87: YES. | Jan 07 05:23 |
| Omar87 | rnb: how so? | Jan 07 05:23 |
| DaemonFC | Omar87: Because he's targeting you with a Tomahawk cruise missile | Jan 07 05:24 |
| rnb | does that really matter? | Jan 07 05:24 |
| rnb | it just IS | Jan 07 05:24 |
| DaemonFC | rnb is a CIA agent | Jan 07 05:24 |
| Omar87 | DaemonFC: ok | Jan 07 05:25 |
| rnb | Omar87: well?! | Jan 07 05:26 |
| rnb | Omar87: oh, NYC? | Jan 07 05:27 |
| rnb | one nice thing about SF is the legalized marijuana | Jan 07 05:28 |
| rnb | well, not entirely legalized, but close enough | Jan 07 05:29 |
| DaemonFC | I'm never living in a city with more than 100,000 or so people again | Jan 07 05:29 |
| DaemonFC | I'd be perfectly happy to live somewhere an hour away from the next person | Jan 07 05:30 |
| rnb | uff, i'm addicted to big cities | Jan 07 05:31 |
| rnb | sao paulo has 19 million people | Jan 07 05:32 |
| rnb | its insane | Jan 07 05:32 |
| rnb | i love it | Jan 07 05:32 |
| rnb | there's a part of downtown sao paulo which is just blocks and blocks of weird little computer stores | Jan 07 05:32 |
| rnb | where you can buy all kinds of hardware and software that is smuggled/pirated via paraguay from china | Jan 07 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | I pretty much have to get every part I need shipped here | Jan 07 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | there's one little ripoff store full of MSCEs on the other side of town | Jan 07 05:33 |
| rnb | yeah, see? they have everything you could ever want in big cities | Jan 07 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | charge you double for anything | Jan 07 05:33 |
| rnb | ugh, i know that type of store from ohio | Jan 07 05:33 |
| Omar87 | rnb: no | Jan 07 05:34 |
| DaemonFC | they'll refuse to even do anything with the PC if it doesn't have Windows on it | Jan 07 05:34 |
| DaemonFC | even hardware | Jan 07 05:34 |
| rnb | figures | Jan 07 05:35 |
| DaemonFC | the only reason I even went in there is because I messed up the BIOS (don't ask) and needed them to flash it | Jan 07 05:35 |
| rnb | Omar87: well, WHERE then? i'm dying of suspense | Jan 07 05:35 |
| rnb | ah shit, i need to sleep soon | Jan 07 05:36 |
| rnb | i gotta get up at like 4AM | Jan 07 05:36 |
| Omar87 | rnb: apparently, I live on Earth. :) | Jan 07 05:36 |
| DaemonFC | well, they would have charged $65 to flash it and I could have a new motherboard (a better one) for $100 | Jan 07 05:36 |
| DaemonFC | so I just replaced the board | Jan 07 05:36 |
| rnb | Omar87 - :( | Jan 07 05:36 |
| rnb | Omar87: c'mon, share with the group | Jan 07 05:36 |
| DaemonFC | rnb: I didn't realize just how bad the Intel motherboards were when I bought that system | Jan 07 05:37 |
| DaemonFC | the board supported a 6-bit Core 2 Duo but couldn't actually address more than 4 GB of RAM | Jan 07 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | *64-bit | Jan 07 05:38 |
| rnb | heh | Jan 07 05:38 |
| rnb | it can be hard to find a good motherboard | Jan 07 05:38 |
| rnb | i always just get recommendations from people who have real-life tested them, usually with fbsd | Jan 07 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | Intel motherboards have not impressed me | Jan 07 05:39 |
| rnb | well, i gotta go | Jan 07 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | night | Jan 07 05:39 |
| rnb | somebody give me a website to look at that i've never heard of before but you really like | Jan 07 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | or take some meth and stay up for 6 weeks and talk | Jan 07 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | failblog.org? | Jan 07 05:40 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jan 07 05:40 |
| rnb | thanks! | Jan 07 05:41 |
| rnb | DaemonFC: heh, pretty funny | Jan 07 05:44 |
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| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] denting from office for the first time :-) | Jan 07 08:28 | |
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| Omar87 | schestowitz: ping | Jan 07 10:06 |
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| ender2070 | lol | Jan 07 10:19 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: ACK | Jan 07 10:23 |
| ender2070 | LOL | Jan 07 10:28 |
| schestowitz | What's funny? | Jan 07 10:32 |
| schestowitz | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8442090.stm | Jan 07 10:33 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 82.79 KB | Jan 07 10:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell is Still Fishing for Software #Patents, #Microsoft and #Apple Do Patent Evils http://ur1.ca/j7xs | Jan 07 10:35 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Novell is Still Fishing for Software Patents, Microsoft and Apple Do Patent Evils | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.03 KB | Jan 07 10:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2010/01/06/rumor-aol-may-be-buying-mashable | Jan 07 10:35 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Rumor: AOL May Be Buying Mashable | WebProNews .::. Size~: 32.13 KB | Jan 07 10:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @greve Quote of the day: "I use #Kontact because I prefer intelligent design to #Evolution" #kde #fsfe #gnu | Jan 07 10:40 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=370446 | Jan 07 10:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] RT @lauracowen Why IBM is promoting Ubuntu at the Young Scientist Exhibition in Dublin next week: http://bit.ly/71c7JG | Jan 07 10:48 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Why is IBM Promoting Ubuntu at the Young Scientist Exhibition « Come see IBM Ireland at BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition .::. Size~: 13.95 KB | Jan 07 10:48 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] At what point does it become 'ok' to obfuscate your code. Is 'competitive advantage' a good enough reason? Pondering.. | Jan 07 11:01 | |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Can you do me a favor plz? | Jan 07 11:32 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: can you please talk to J. Wildeboer for me? | Jan 07 11:33 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: I've been trying to tweet him recently, but I'm getting no response at all. | Jan 07 11:34 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: can you at least tell him there's a group of people in Jordan who would like to talk to him, and mention me? | Jan 07 11:35 |
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| Omar87 | schestowitz: r u there? | Jan 07 11:37 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* http://www.canadaphotohost.com/is.php?i=587&img=mono-rangers-20.jpg | Jan 07 11:37 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 07 11:37 |
| schestowitz | Who is this blogger? | Jan 07 11:37 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottlefty.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/mono-rangers-1-the-pilot/ | Jan 07 11:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Mono Rangers #1 The Pilot « Boycott Lefty .::. Size~: 10.52 KB | Jan 07 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: yes, sure | Jan 07 11:38 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: I would be very thankful. :-) | Jan 07 11:38 |
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| schestowitz | Omar87: http://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/7476066889 "@jwildeboer @loophole87 and his LUG are hoping to get in touch with you to help advance F/OSS in Jordan" | Jan 07 11:56 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Twitter / Roy Schestowitz: @jwildeboer @loophole87 an ... .::. Size~: 10.13 KB | Jan 07 11:56 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Google-proposes-geolocation-database/?kc=rss | Jan 07 11:57 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Google asks to administer white space networks - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 64.69 KB | Jan 07 11:57 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/06/very_long_pi/ | Jan 07 12:01 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Boffin calculates pi to 2.7 trillion digits • The Register .::. Size~: 26.12 KB | Jan 07 12:01 |
| schestowitz | More DRM... http://themediaviking.com/software/bluray-linux/ | Jan 07 12:12 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Blu-Ray Playback in Linux | The Media Viking .::. Size~: 37.63 KB | Jan 07 12:12 |
| Ender2070 | sudo apt-get handcuffs | Jan 07 12:15 |
| oiaohm_ | Depends where you are Ender2070 | Jan 07 12:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Not all places are software patents legal | Jan 07 12:30 |
| schestowitz | Well, bluray can be good for backups though, not just playbacks | Jan 07 12:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BvbD-1qZtc&feature=related | Jan 07 12:52 |
| schestowitz | Here's what I don't get. Two TV sources say that nearly ran out of fuel upon landing (20 seconds left); so how did they have fuel to leave the moon? Reserves? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys7RTkFFByM The gravity there is lower, but still... | Jan 07 13:02 |
| oiaohm_ | Explosive charge. | Jan 07 13:13 |
| oiaohm_ | Between the landing gear and the main capsual schestowitz | Jan 07 13:13 |
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| amarsh04 | schestowitz, if you are talking about Apollo 11, there were separate fuel tanks and engines for descent and take-off of the moon. I was re-watching "In the shadow of the moon" earlier this evening | Jan 07 13:17 |
| amarsh04 | s/of/to\/from/ | Jan 07 13:18 |
| amarsh04 | if they had run out of fuel before they landed, Neil Armstrong would have either let the lunar module hard-land (if they were just off the surface) or done an above-ground abort and jettisoned the landing stage | Jan 07 13:19 |
| schestowitz | I'm trying to fight footage of them making the journey back and landing | Jan 07 13:22 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: OK, I'm just trying to fight more film | Jan 07 13:23 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gqVbDm5Orw | Jan 07 13:23 |
| amarsh04 | the lander had two parts, a descent stage with the ladder and the landing pads and an ascent stage | Jan 07 13:23 |
| amarsh04 | hang on, I'm on the slow pc and can't get those clips until I start the other pc | Jan 07 13:24 |
| schestowitz | I'm just trying to debunk the theory it was a hoax. Some friend of mine insisted on it | Jan 07 13:24 |
| amarsh04 | the DVD of "In the shadow of the moon" is good that way as it is all first person by the actual astronauts | Jan 07 13:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Mythbusters covered the shadows on the moon. | Jan 07 13:26 |
| trmanco | grrr | Jan 07 13:27 |
| amarsh04 | my easiest argument against the hoax theories is the arrays of "corner cubes" left by some/all Apollo landings that reflect light straight back, including lasers shone from earth | Jan 07 13:27 |
| trmanco | kernel update :/ | Jan 07 13:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Also the lander was depending on the seperation of the landing stage from the ascent stage for extra bost to get way from moon. | Jan 07 13:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Yep the very device that is still used today to measure the distance between the earth and the moon was put up in the Apollo landings. | Jan 07 13:28 |
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| schestowitz | amarsh04: I can see it here now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juSBR4zz85Q&feature=PlayList&p=864B2047B0397CCB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4 | Jan 07 13:32 |
| schestowitz | It shows the parachute and departure from Moon's surface | Jan 07 13:32 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Avatar Movie Reviews Miss the Role of #GNU #Linux (Satires Site) http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/avataruseslinux.shtml | Jan 07 14:30 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Avatar Movie Made Possible With Linux - www.reallylinux.com .::. Size~: 12.05 KB | Jan 07 14:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Monet" Frame Computer Runs #GNU #Linux http://blog.paultags.com/2010/01/monet-frame/ | Jan 07 14:31 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Monet at Peace, Love and C++ .::. Size~: 17.18 KB | Jan 07 14:31 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Spreads Through Low-end Desktops http://ur1.ca/j8sc http://ur1.ca/j8sd | Jan 07 14:32 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: 2010: Deluge of ARMed PCs at Robert Pogson .::. Size~: 24.27 KB | Jan 07 14:32 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: The Netbook Arena: Lenovo, Dell, HP and Linux | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 46.38 KB | Jan 07 14:32 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Large OEMs Able to Use #GNU #Linux to Beat #Apple http://ur1.ca/j8sl http://ur1.ca/j8sm | Jan 07 14:34 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Computing Beyond the Point-and-Click is Important http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2010/01/i-just-want-som.html | Jan 07 14:34 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Dell Has Everything To Beat Apple - Katonda .::. Size~: 33.62 KB | Jan 07 14:34 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Freescale's Linux smartbook aims to take bite out of Apple - Hardware and networks - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 82.32 KB | Jan 07 14:34 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Linux Today Blog .::. Size~: 94.69 KB | Jan 07 14:34 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft 's Wrong Priorities Compared to #GNU #Linux http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/brian-proffitt/271682:resetting-priorities | Jan 07 14:36 | |
| satipera | The economist worries about the future of big pharma and patent cliffs,http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/economist/audio_all/~5/X2_LWoK03v8/20091229_yearahead_3_49WP.mp3 start at 8 minutes into podcast. | Jan 07 14:37 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Google FeedBurner .::. Size~: 11.6 KB | Jan 07 14:37 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KDM and #Plasma Collaborate More Closely, Other #KDE News http://ur1.ca/j8su http://ur1.ca/j8sv http://ur1.ca/j8sw | Jan 07 14:38 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Shaun Reich (sreich): KDM and Plasma: A future. .::. Size~: 82.24 KB | Jan 07 14:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Mix it up « Colin.Guthr.ie .::. Size~: 46.76 KB | Jan 07 14:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Qt Labs Blogs » Qt Graphics and Performance - OpenGL .::. Size~: 58.35 KB | Jan 07 14:38 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Gets Big Gift, Collaborates/Concurs with #FSF http://ur1.ca/j8sz http://ur1.ca/j6rl | Jan 07 14:40 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Stormy's Corner: GNOME got an Amazing Christmas Present! .::. Size~: 19.77 KB | Jan 07 14:40 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: GNOME and FSF highlight women in free software - Free Software Foundation .::. Size~: 30.34 KB | Jan 07 14:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Guy in a landrover pulling a guy on skis in the field opposite work. Jealous. Much. #fb | Jan 07 14:42 | |
| cubezzz | might be worth a read: | Jan 07 14:43 |
| cubezzz | http://maxhost.org/cubeman/ms_dirtytricks.txt | Jan 07 14:43 |
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| schestowitz | schestowitz: any transcription? | Jan 07 14:43 |
| schestowitz | Even a soundbite would do | Jan 07 14:44 |
| schestowitz | People just won't descend to MP3s to learn | Jan 07 14:44 |
| cubezzz | "Having TPM hardware in the machine at all is bad enough... if you move to Vista there will | Jan 07 14:45 |
| cubezzz | (quite literally) be no escape. The computer you purchase will not belong to you and will | Jan 07 14:45 |
| cubezzz | be deliberately designed to be secure against you, rather than for you." | Jan 07 14:45 |
| cubezzz | and my personal favourite: | Jan 07 14:47 |
| cubezzz | "the PDP-10 time used to run 8080 simulators. Used to write that initial Basic | Jan 07 14:47 |
| cubezzz | interpreter ... stolen." | Jan 07 14:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New GNU/Linux Releases: #Toorox 01.2010, #KahelOS Light Edition 01-01-2010 http://toorox.de/ http://ur1.ca/j8u6 | Jan 07 14:52 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Kahel OS .::. Size~: 10.87 KB | Jan 07 14:52 |
| cubezzz | things have not changed since then | Jan 07 14:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Promotes #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/5cmeGR | Jan 07 14:55 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxMint 8 Reviewed http://linuxbsdos.com/2010/01/06/linux-mint-8-review/ | Jan 07 14:55 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Why is IBM Promoting Ubuntu at the Young Scientist Exhibition « Come see IBM Ireland at BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition .::. Size~: 16.57 KB | Jan 07 14:55 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Linux Mint 8 review LinuxBSDos.com .::. Size~: 71.28 KB | Jan 07 14:55 |
| cubezzz | http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/mars/ask/about-rover/Why_to_use_a_80C85_microprocessor_in_Rover_.txt | Jan 07 14:55 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Welcome to NASA Quest! .::. Size~: 71 KB | Jan 07 14:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Broadcom Puts #Linux Support on Personal Navigation Device http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Broadcom-BCM4760/?kc=rss #pnd | Jan 07 14:56 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: PND-on-a-chip gets Android support - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 60.22 KB | Jan 07 14:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZiiLab #Plaszma #Linux Introduced http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/ZiiLabs-Zii-SiVo-Digital-Home-Platform/?kc=rss | Jan 07 14:58 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: HD media hub design runs Android, Linux - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 63.8 KB | Jan 07 14:58 |
| cubezzz | "While I enjoy mocking Microsoft's Jabba-ware..." lol | Jan 07 14:59 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Guide for Small Businesses That Migrate to #GNU #Linux http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/biztools/article.php/3856831 | Jan 07 14:59 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Releases the RC of #Firefox 3.6 http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/01/06/firefox-3-6-finally-gets-a-release-candidate/ | Jan 07 15:00 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Firefox 3.6 finally hits the release candidate phase .::. Size~: 83.78 KB | Jan 07 15:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #MySQL #Databases Can be Sold to #Oracle and Stay Strong http://ur1.ca/j390 http://ur1.ca/j55o http://ur1.ca/j8ux | Jan 07 15:01 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Jan Wildeboer · Why I will not sign the MySQL petition .::. Size~: 45.64 KB | Jan 07 15:01 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Monty Widenius wants another billion dollars, should we help him? | Moved by Freedom - Powered by Standards .::. Size~: 32.4 KB | Jan 07 15:01 |
| jose_X | cubezzz, i was thinking some (especially in light of many/some libertarian's views towards patents AND copyrights) and reaffirmed that i think bsd/public domain/etc is fine IF copyrights don't exist. | Jan 07 15:03 |
| jose_X | Actually, I take that back. | Jan 07 15:04 |
| cubezzz | hmm? | Jan 07 15:04 |
| jose_X | Generally, I think that whatever tools get created, if enough people exploit them, then people will realize the unfairness of it. | Jan 07 15:04 |
| jose_X | If no one has the tools, then we are all equal. | Jan 07 15:04 |
| jose_X | eg, copyrights or patents | Jan 07 15:05 |
| jose_X | the prob is that the tools are only leveraged by a minority so effectively they have it and others don't. | Jan 07 15:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at Open Source Lab at #Oregon State University http://ur1.ca/j8v8 | Jan 07 15:05 | |
| jose_X | anyway, technology has brought access to many more people (cheaper to do things you couldn't before without starting a huge company and getting mamoth financing, etc) | Jan 07 15:06 |
| jose_X | so today it will be clearer that some of these laws are going overboard to say the least | Jan 07 15:06 |
| cubezzz | I think things are good, except for the OEM situation | Jan 07 15:06 |
| cubezzz | I just like to point out the historical bad stuff | Jan 07 15:07 |
| jose_X | Now, to get back to where I started.. the GPL works because of copyright. Eliminate copyright and all secrets or public domain. | Jan 07 15:07 |
| jose_X | [btw, I haven't finished reading what you linked ms_dirtytricks.txt] | Jan 07 15:07 |
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| jose_X | I'm not sure how I stand (I'm oscillating in part because I don't think about this too much).. | Jan 07 15:08 |
| jose_X | if we didn't have copyrights, then I think wine development would have taken off years ago.. | Jan 07 15:09 |
| cubezzz | I think copyright is fine as long as we don't get infinite extensions | Jan 07 15:09 |
| cubezzz | and it's too long | Jan 07 15:09 |
| jose_X | and compatibility with MS would be closer earlier and more people would have moved off Windows and wine+others would have expanded and people woudl have moved there | Jan 07 15:09 |
| jose_X | what stinks of the protocol would simply mean that LInux and others would also grow alongside | Jan 07 15:10 |
| zoobab | "Monty Widenius, a fellow of the Microsoft’s Codeplex Foundation, and a man who describes the asserted and patented monopoly as being “benevolent and understanding towards Open Source”." | Jan 07 15:10 |
| zoobab | http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2010/01/05/monty-widenius-wants-another-billion-dollars-should-we-help-him/ | Jan 07 15:10 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Monty Widenius wants another billion dollars, should we help him? | Moved by Freedom - Powered by Standards .::. Size~: 32.4 KB | Jan 07 15:10 |
| cubezzz | is he Monty Extendius' cousin? :) | Jan 07 15:10 |
| jose_X | Microsoft exploits copyright. | Jan 07 15:11 |
| cubezzz | they are just thieves | Jan 07 15:11 |
| cubezzz | it's beyond exploiting | Jan 07 15:11 |
| jose_X | They control what people can do with their products and they make everything more difficult. Also, a larger number of people (like myself) than not become disgusted and simply don't want to look at their stuff.. | Jan 07 15:11 |
| jose_X | I don't wnat to work and then have the carpet pulled out from underneath.. and why vote for such a company.. | Jan 07 15:12 |
| cubezzz | aggregating everyone else's work, and charge $200 for it over and over | Jan 07 15:12 |
| cubezzz | yeah I should have stayed on Unix type systems | Jan 07 15:12 |
| jose_X | anyway, the point is that the threat of litigation and vast powers granted by copyright keep people in limbo. otehrwise,... | Jan 07 15:13 |
| cubezzz | instead I took a foolish Microsoft controlled detour for 10 years | Jan 07 15:13 |
| jose_X | exactly, you wouldn't pay again.. you'd pirate, etc. | Jan 07 15:13 |
| cubezzz | no, I'm GNU/Linux 100% now | Jan 07 15:13 |
| jose_X | MS EULA would be cleaned out of the software and while the person taking it out might be under contract law, the otehrs would not. | Jan 07 15:13 |
| cubezzz | I actually gave the criminals money | Jan 07 15:13 |
| jose_X | anyway, if MIcrosoft and otehrs can have the powers of copyright, then i want it to: exhibit 1 the GPL | Jan 07 15:14 |
| jose_X | Today, with copyright, the BSD is not something I like to use.. but I could see a case where I would not mind if basically all that existed was public domain and free for all. | Jan 07 15:14 |
| cubezzz | well I use BSD code | Jan 07 15:14 |
| cubezzz | porting stuff mostly | Jan 07 15:14 |
| jose_X | With patents it could be similar except that patents are expensive and not auto so a real advantage does lie to those with money | Jan 07 15:15 |
| jose_X | use is one thing.. i mean create with it so that others can close it off. | Jan 07 15:15 |
| jose_X | and monopolize, for example | Jan 07 15:15 |
| jose_X | unix was expensive. MS appeared to be a good choice I think. | Jan 07 15:16 |
| jose_X | point is that monopolies and abuses taht follow are not good. | Jan 07 15:16 |
| cubezzz | I still regret what I did | Jan 07 15:16 |
| jose_X | and in neither case is black box something that benefits me. | Jan 07 15:16 |
| jose_X | I' | Jan 07 15:16 |
| jose_X | m | Jan 07 15:16 |
| cubezzz | I had the chance to switch to Linux 0.99 in 1994 | Jan 07 15:16 |
| jose_X | small.. my black boxes will always be small compared to those of large corps. | Jan 07 15:16 |
| cubezzz | had the Unix System V background, and I still didn't stick with it back then | Jan 07 15:17 |
| cubezzz | well BSD is older, but GNU/Linux will win in the end | Jan 07 15:18 |
| jose_X | and open is better since only then do you get maximal leverage possible.. | Jan 07 15:18 |
| cubezzz | it pretty much has already | Jan 07 15:18 |
| jose_X | gpl | Jan 07 15:18 |
| jose_X | gpl | Jan 07 15:18 |
| cubezzz | yeah if I was to put code out it would be under GPL | Jan 07 15:18 |
| jose_X | at least that is what attracts me to it.. as stating earlier: i want an even field.. if copyrights are used against me, i want something like the gpl protections. | Jan 07 15:18 |
| jose_X | if you are large there are reasons to go with bsd, apache, etc, but as a small player, i find the gpl generally closest to what i want. | Jan 07 15:19 |
| jose_X | agpl really | Jan 07 15:19 |
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| cubezzz | I still like programming from stratch :) | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | part of the problem with gpl and similar licenses is that they aren't as flexible as i would like.. eg, gpl2 means gpl2 forever.. there is a bypass by multiply licensing.... | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | fun | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | but not always too productive | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | except for learning purposes | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | or | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | of course | Jan 07 15:20 |
| cubezzz | does GPL ever expire? Like is there a time limit? | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | if you can't find what you need | Jan 07 15:20 |
| jose_X | no | Jan 07 15:21 |
| jose_X | you can create something like the gpl with a time limit but it wouldn't be the gpl | Jan 07 15:21 |
| jose_X | alternatively, you can license as gpl | Jan 07 15:21 |
| MinceR | you could make copyright have a time limit once again | Jan 07 15:21 |
| cubezzz | jose_x, like recreating cal for example | Jan 07 15:21 |
| jose_X | and then after say 10 years put into the public domain | Jan 07 15:21 |
| MinceR | and then that would apply to the gpl too | Jan 07 15:21 |
| jose_X | that is the effect you asked for ithink | Jan 07 15:21 |
| jose_X | MinceR.. by changing the law, yes | Jan 07 15:21 |
| MinceR | or by not extending copyright protections right before the previous one would have expired | Jan 07 15:22 |
| MinceR | the MAFIAA are changing the law to do this constantly | Jan 07 15:22 |
| jose_X | gplv4 if it comes someday should expand in the area of flexibility | Jan 07 15:22 |
| jose_X | i would hope | Jan 07 15:22 |
| jose_X | they laugh now because they own so many assets | Jan 07 15:23 |
| jose_X | they won't be laughing when CC share-alike starts to include really quality works | Jan 07 15:23 |
| jose_X | in high volume | Jan 07 15:23 |
| jose_X | not enough people are leveraging copyright law.. when we do (smartly, eg, CC share-alike), then Maffiaaa will be neutralized | Jan 07 15:24 |
| cubezzz | makes me think they'll just make a copyright that doesn't expire | Jan 07 15:24 |
| cubezzz | CC is good though | Jan 07 15:24 |
| jose_X | cubezzz, that may technically not be allowed since the US constitution does talk about temporary time | Jan 07 15:24 |
| jose_X | but what is limited time? 100000 years! | Jan 07 15:24 |
| jose_X | anyway, when people create with share-alike and make some neat stuff, mafiaa will find themselves like microsoft | Jan 07 15:25 |
| jose_X | unable to keep up | Jan 07 15:25 |
| jose_X | and unable to mix properly | Jan 07 15:25 |
| cubezzz | we don't even have software patents in Canada (I don't think) | Jan 07 15:25 |
| jose_X | and they will be turning to patents | Jan 07 15:25 |
| cubezzz | I always thought software patents were stupid | Jan 07 15:25 |
| jose_X | stretching the original intentions behind patents as much as possible to protect their business from competition | Jan 07 15:26 |
| jose_X | unconstitutional as far as I can tell because they don't "promote the progress of science and useful arts" | Jan 07 15:26 |
| cubezzz | BSD didn't really catch on, even though it's older than Linux | Jan 07 15:26 |
| jose_X | i think the gpl is why though people talk about the att lawsuit | Jan 07 15:27 |
| jose_X | at&t | Jan 07 15:27 |
| cubezzz | it's the fringe of the fringe | Jan 07 15:27 |
| jose_X | heh | Jan 07 15:27 |
| jose_X | but respected in many ways | Jan 07 15:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Hearing one side of a phone conversation is odd. Hearing 2 of 3 sides as co-workers are both on conf call is more odd. #fb | Jan 07 15:27 | |
| cubezzz | thankfully AT&T wasn't allowed to make money on computers :) | Jan 07 15:28 |
| jose_X | i saw a posting that some EU country(ies?) are pressuring canada to change ip laws | Jan 07 15:28 |
| cubezzz | what I mean is, most of us are using GNU/Linux not BSD | Jan 07 15:28 |
| jose_X | schestowitz probably knows more about what i think i mean | Jan 07 15:28 |
| cubezzz | we have Bill C-61 but it's in limbo I think | Jan 07 15:29 |
| jose_X | since i probably got the link here (or else at Linux Today) | Jan 07 15:29 |
| cubezzz | I've noticed that linux.org seems rather boring of late | Jan 07 15:30 |
| cubezzz | all they talk about is kernel updates | Jan 07 15:31 |
| jose_X | i tried to participate but didn't have much luck and just lost interest | Jan 07 15:31 |
| jose_X | but it appears things are going on in terms of forums and stuff | Jan 07 15:31 |
| jose_X | i use a low res monitor (relatively) now and iirc for a while actually wasn't able to see enough of the screen to log on | Jan 07 15:32 |
| cubezzz | I'm still using 1024x768 | Jan 07 15:33 |
| jose_X | also i posted some "ideas" or whatever they call it and wasn't able to find it back or see where it went) | Jan 07 15:33 |
| jose_X | i'm using lower... don't ask | Jan 07 15:33 |
| cubezzz | well I have a zaurus here.... :) | Jan 07 15:34 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Anyone else seeing launchpad bug 500975 http://bit.ly/7fF49d when syncing Tomboy notes to Ubuntu One? | Jan 07 15:34 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Bug #500975 in tomboy (Ubuntu): “Synchronization failed with the following exception: Unexpected character '<' at [1:1]” .::. Size~: 40.36 KB | Jan 07 15:34 |
| cubezzz | is 240x320 low enough for you? :) | Jan 07 15:35 |
| cubezzz | I just ssh into it though | Jan 07 15:35 |
| cubezzz | I need a real keyboard :) | Jan 07 15:35 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Nitin are you in there? :-) RD: @schestowitz: A Look at Open Source Lab at #Oregon State University http://ur1.ca/j8v8 | Jan 07 15:38 | |
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| cubezzz | ah well, things are improving anyway | Jan 07 15:38 |
| cubezzz | jose_x, just post your ideas on your blog then give out the url | Jan 07 15:39 |
| jose_X | it's higher than that | Jan 07 15:40 |
| jose_X | i was just mentioning that i was motivated to contribute to linux.com but it didn't work out for one reason or other | Jan 07 15:41 |
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| jose_X | not a big deal.. things may change tomorrow | Jan 07 15:41 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Why not to sign the MySQL petition http://is.gd/5RsAj | Jan 07 16:03 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Jan Wildeboer · Why I will not sign the MySQL petition .::. Size~: 45.72 KB | Jan 07 16:03 |
| trmanco | http://rtorrentweb.com/ | Jan 07 16:04 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 200 Ok .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 07 16:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft ’s Kevin Turner Apparently Still in Charge of Anti- #GNU #2Linux Strategies http://ur1.ca/j8zi | Jan 07 16:05 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsofts Kevin Turner Apparently Still in Charge of Anti-GNU/Linux Strategies | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.07 KB | Jan 07 16:05 |
| trmanco | http://probablyprogramming.com/2010/01/06/rolling-dice-with-js-and-unicode/ | Jan 07 16:16 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: ⚃ Rolling Dice with JS and Unicode ⚂ | Probably Programming .::. Size~: 22.69 KB | Jan 07 16:16 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ”On the #SVG List, a Couple of People [Are] Leery of #Microsoft .“ http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/07/svg-skepticism-microsoft/ | Jan 07 16:38 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: “On the SVG List, a Couple of People [Are] Leery of Microsoft.” | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 95.5 KB | Jan 07 16:38 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Microsoft and HP show off 'slate' PC - Is it just me who thinks "Flintstones" with "slate"? How apt for MS http://tinyurl.com/yaqfphs | Jan 07 16:50 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC News - Microsoft and HP show off 'slate' PC .::. Size~: 61.81 KB | Jan 07 16:50 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Wasn't IE 9 supposed to finally support SVG? | Jan 07 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | I think for more and more Windows users, Internet Explorer is an appendix | Jan 07 16:59 |
| schestowitz | IE is a dying thing | Jan 07 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Maybe that's why they "surrender" | Jan 07 17:00 |
| schestowitz | Like they did with ODF | Jan 07 17:00 |
| DaemonFC | doesn't do anything for them, but it can rupture | Jan 07 17:00 |
| schestowitz | They couldn't get rid of it like they wanted | Jan 07 17:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb except in hype, they can't match ARM/Linux | Jan 07 17:00 | |
| DaemonFC | they had the money and the developers to make IE a fast, fully standards compliant browser all along | Jan 07 17:00 |
| DaemonFC | they're just now giving up on a lot of things they never wanted to support | Jan 07 17:01 |
| DaemonFC | I guess I'll probably try IE 9 when it's a public beta, just like I tried out IE 8 briefly, it's a laugh anyway | Jan 07 17:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] @schestowitz I note they manage to fit in both that Win7 is both the best selling, and that everyone loves it in that BBC piece | Jan 07 17:02 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] @schestowitz I also note the underwhelming responses too, like "seems like old MS software in an old form factor, just reheated up | Jan 07 17:09 | |
| kecskebak | Daily Telegraph is disappointed... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ces/6944808/CES-2010-Microsoft-chief-Steve-Ballmer-fails-to-wow-crowds-at-opening.html | Jan 07 17:10 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CES 2010: Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer fails to wow crowds at opening - Telegraph .::. Size~: 57.76 KB | Jan 07 17:10 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb I would just avoid paying attention to it http://ur1.ca/j94y | Jan 07 17:15 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CES 2010: Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer fails to wow crowds at opening - Telegraph .::. Size~: 57.76 KB | Jan 07 17:15 |
| DaemonFC | Two executions set for tonight | Jan 07 17:18 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC - dot.Maggie: Tablets at CES: Microsoft fails to wow http://tinyurl.com/ydhngos | Jan 07 17:18 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC - dot.Maggie: Tablets at CES: Microsoft fails to wow .::. Size~: 80.07 KB | Jan 07 17:18 |
| DaemonFC | a cop killer and a child killer | Jan 07 17:18 |
| DaemonFC | they should televise this stuff | Jan 07 17:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "Bing, will become the default search engine on all Hewlett Packard PCs" - 1 reason not to buy them then http://tinyurl.com/y98kbkl | Jan 07 17:19 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CES 2010: Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer fails to wow crowds at opening - Telegraph .::. Size~: 57.76 KB | Jan 07 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | I mean, you have all these hippies saying being put to sleep is painful and therefore "cruel and unusual" | Jan 07 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | I wonder if they ever watched an execution | Jan 07 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | I asked someone from France if they supported the decision to ban the death sentence there, and he said that there's a lot of people that want them to bring back the guillotine | Jan 07 17:21 |
| DaemonFC | he sad there's protesters that chant that sometimes when someone has just gotten a life sentence | Jan 07 17:21 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Denounced Again by Former Employee for Not Paying #Washington #Tax http://ur1.ca/j95y | Jan 07 17:28 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft Denounced Again by Former Employee for Not Paying Washington Tax; Bill Gates Increases Washington (DC) Influence | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 100.34 KB | Jan 07 17:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Terror is the price of support for despots and dictators | Seumas Milne | Comment is free | The Guardian http://tinyurl.com/yect6za | Jan 07 17:30 | |
| schestowitz | Does this have Linux? http://www.techworld.com.au/article/331606/ces_2010_new_panasonic_lumix_cameras_go_high-capacity?fp=2&fpid=1&rid=1 | Jan 07 17:34 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: CES 2010: New Panasonic Lumix cameras go high-capacity - ces 2010, digital cameras, Panasonic, photography - Techworld .::. Size~: 41.43 KB | Jan 07 17:35 |
| schestowitz | "Can Microsoft give us one surprise at this keynote please? Just one." http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/7466271108 | Jan 07 17:37 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: Can Microsoft give us one ... .::. Size~: 9.83 KB | Jan 07 17:37 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer's keynote seems choppy. "As we close this demo..." What?! http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/7465878195 | Jan 07 17:37 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: Ballmer's keynote seems ch ... .::. Size~: 9.84 KB | Jan 07 17:37 |
| schestowitz | Not even the words? This is awful. http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/7466181249 | Jan 07 17:37 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: Not even the words? This i ... .::. Size~: 9.77 KB | Jan 07 17:38 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is busy laying people off; no news products | Jan 07 17:38 |
| schestowitz | http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/mobiles-may-protect-brain-from-alzheimers-study-20100107-lvh3.html | Jan 07 17:41 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Mobiles may protect brain from Alzheimer's: study .::. Size~: 93.19 KB | Jan 07 17:41 |
| schestowitz | http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-avatar-q-and-a2-2010jan02,0,5033714.story | Jan 07 17:46 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Inventing the plants of 'Avatar' - latimes.com .::. Size~: 119.6 KB | Jan 07 17:46 |
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| schestowitz | This one might come handy some day http://www.sutor.com/c/2010/01/checking-broken-links-in-wordpress-blogs/ bbl g2g | Jan 07 17:54 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Checking broken links in WordPress blogs | Blog | Bob Sutor .::. Size~: 29.99 KB | Jan 07 17:54 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: What made me laugh is that they even stole "Mii" avatars from the Wii | Jan 07 18:09 |
| DaemonFC | and included them in a firmware update | Jan 07 18:09 |
| DaemonFC | that's what firmware upgrades are good for, Nintendo and Sony use them to add features and fix bugs, and all Microsoft uses them for is to ban consoles from Live, force you to buy their memory cards, and steal features from their competitors after the console is released | Jan 07 18:11 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jan 07 18:11 |
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| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Did you mention that Microsoft is having to run another "half price promo" to keep sales numbers going? | Jan 07 18:13 |
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| rnb | good morning people | Jan 07 18:28 |
| rnb | i like this channel | Jan 07 18:28 |
| rnb | i want to hang out here | Jan 07 18:29 |
| rnb | someone should give me a "welcome to #boycottnovell" tour | Jan 07 18:30 |
| Ender2070 | brb | Jan 07 18:33 |
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| rnb | TOUR!!! | Jan 07 18:37 |
| DaemonFC | *lights a cigarette* | Jan 07 18:46 |
| DaemonFC | *whistles* | Jan 07 18:46 |
| DaemonFC | imaginary cigarettes don't kill me, but I pretend that they do | Jan 07 18:46 |
| DaemonFC | The state of Indiana wants all the pretend cigarette tax I haven't paid | Jan 07 18:47 |
| DaemonFC | hmm, History Channel says that Zambia refused grain donated from the US during their famine because it was "genetically engineered" | Jan 07 18:49 |
| DaemonFC | "Here, we're all starving and will be dead in weeks without food, but we won't eat ge crops cause they might have the cumulative effect of cutting our lives a year short" | Jan 07 18:50 |
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| DaemonFC | Zambia :P They probably only live to be 30 anyway | Jan 07 18:50 |
| DaemonFC | one of those countries whose GDP is primarily subsistence farming and AIDS | Jan 07 18:51 |
| DaemonFC | and it's all America's fault | Jan 07 18:52 |
| DaemonFC | can't tell you why, just that it is | Jan 07 18:52 |
| DaemonFC | that's the important part | Jan 07 18:52 |
| DaemonFC | "Cyber Terrorism", lulz | Jan 07 18:53 |
| DaemonFC | they're talking about terrorists hacking into our early warning system | Jan 07 18:54 |
| DaemonFC | starting a nuclear war | Jan 07 18:54 |
| DaemonFC | OMG!!!!!!! | Jan 07 18:54 |
| DaemonFC | they're h4x0r1ng into a wifi network using WEP | Jan 07 18:55 |
| DaemonFC | *I* can do that | Jan 07 18:55 |
| DaemonFC | Jesus | Jan 07 18:55 |
| DaemonFC | this is lame | Jan 07 18:55 |
| DaemonFC | "We can go hack the Pentagon!" | Jan 07 18:55 |
| DaemonFC | They use Linksys routers and WEP? | Jan 07 18:55 |
| DaemonFC | and Windows XP? | Jan 07 18:57 |
| DaemonFC | I'm more technologically sophisticated than the Pentagon if that's the case | Jan 07 18:57 |
| ender2070 | they have deals with ms | Jan 07 18:57 |
| ender2070 | its probably true | Jan 07 18:57 |
| DaemonFC | this History Channel crap is so stupid | Jan 07 18:58 |
| DaemonFC | they have the workstation screen lock on the screen and call it a firewall | Jan 07 18:58 |
| DaemonFC | this shit is just bananas | Jan 07 18:58 |
| ender2070 | b a n a n a s | Jan 07 19:00 |
| DaemonFC | uhhhh | Jan 07 19:08 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Jan 07 19:08 |
| rnb | HEY NOW! | Jan 07 19:10 |
| ender2070 | never heard of gwen stefani | Jan 07 19:10 |
| ThistleWeb | gwen stefani is the singer with no doubt | Jan 07 19:10 |
| rnb | let me explain why zambia was correct in their decision | Jan 07 19:11 |
| rnb | had they allowed monsanto's infected, frankenstein seeds into their agriculture program, there is a possibility that those plants would start to infect neighboring crops | Jan 07 19:11 |
| rnb | and, per monsanto's intellectual property policies, this would start the process by which zambia would end up being slaves to monsanto | Jan 07 19:12 |
| rnb | and, this is the US's fault because the US government is pretty much oned by monsanto and assists them in their evil plans | Jan 07 19:13 |
| rnb | so, the heartless action taken here was monsanto's exploitation of a human tragedy to try and invade the agricultural market of yet another country | Jan 07 19:13 |
| ThistleWeb | the EU wont accept "potentially tainted" crops either, which means crops grown on land previously sewn with GM crops, so the only market they have is the US who infected them in the first place | Jan 07 19:13 |
| rnb | the truth of the matter is that there is MORE than enough food produced in the world that no society should have to suffer the effects of malnutrition or starvation | Jan 07 19:15 |
| *_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 19:15 | |
| rnb | it is only the global system of food distribution (a for-profit scam) that causes this tragedy | Jan 07 19:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Recommendation to all the metallers who follow me....a great band! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW3x0dFHABU&feature=related | Jan 07 19:15 | |
| rnb | however, any alternative would immediately be viewed as an Evil Communist Plot and could lead to anything from aggressive trade actions all the way to black ops and agricultural sabotage | Jan 07 19:16 |
| ThistleWeb | I saw a documentary a while back on mosanto about them giving "aid" in the form of seeds etc without mentioning it was GM and would taint their land and ensure that the US was their only market if they used the crops | Jan 07 19:20 |
| rnb | yes | Jan 07 19:21 |
| ThistleWeb | the "aid" was coming through the US aid channels, donated by mosanto | Jan 07 19:22 |
| ThistleWeb | the problem is that countries who need aid are very poor and cant turn down anything they get | Jan 07 19:23 |
| ThistleWeb | they cant afford to look to the future when they have a population who need to eat today, and mosanto knows it and exploits it | Jan 07 19:23 |
| ThistleWeb | even the US food chain dont mention where stuff is GM, so the US consumer doesnt know, and therefor cant make a choice to eat it or not | Jan 07 19:24 |
| rnb | either that or the leadership of the country who DID stand up to monsanto's extortion was kidnapped by NED-funded black op groups in a coup d'etat | Jan 07 19:24 |
| rnb | and replaced by an undemocratic leader who would play ball | Jan 07 19:24 |
| ThistleWeb | food companies are desperate to avoid GM stuff having to be marked as GM on UK shelves, because they fear the backlash of the cnsumer rejecting it if they know | Jan 07 19:24 |
| ThistleWeb | since the US is the only place they can sell their crops, the US can cut the price down to peanuts and put caps on it, knowing they cant sell it anwyhere else | Jan 07 19:28 |
| ThistleWeb | they become "US market vouchers" redeemable only in the US | Jan 07 19:28 |
| ThistleWeb | under any conditions the US corps want to set for their own profits | Jan 07 19:29 |
| ThistleWeb | either sell under those conditions, or watch your crops wither and die, and your people continue to starve | Jan 07 19:29 |
| ThistleWeb | a key position in any negotiation is the ability to walk away and seek an alternate option | Jan 07 19:30 |
| ThistleWeb | without that, they have nothing | Jan 07 19:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] hot diggidy dingdong it's fucking cold again tonight | Jan 07 19:32 | |
| rnb | it's a crime against humanity | Jan 07 19:34 |
| rnb | viva socialismo | Jan 07 19:34 |
| rnb | the only antidote to this kind of insanity | Jan 07 19:35 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@c-67-171-9-93.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 19:39 | |
| neighborlee | hi | Jan 07 19:39 |
| _goblin | hi | Jan 07 19:42 |
| neighborlee | can someone plllllllease remind me,,what the deal was with FAT in linux | Jan 07 19:45 |
| neighborlee | wasn't there some ,,deal that made fat a NON issue to complain about mono being included ?? | Jan 07 19:45 |
| neighborlee | it came up in another channel, and I could not remeber what the deal with FAT was | Jan 07 19:45 |
| DaemonFC | long file names | Jan 07 19:45 |
| neighborlee | hm | Jan 07 19:45 |
| neighborlee | but I mean , what makes it 'ok' to use FAT and no mono..thats what im getting at | Jan 07 19:46 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft had a patent on how to create both a long and short file name in FAT32 at once | Jan 07 19:46 |
| DaemonFC | so Linux now makes one or the other | Jan 07 19:46 |
| neighborlee | ah | Jan 07 19:46 |
| neighborlee | so adherance by avoidance ? | Jan 07 19:46 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jan 07 19:46 |
| DaemonFC | well, the patent just says you can't have both at once | Jan 07 19:46 |
| neighborlee | ah | Jan 07 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | so if the file name is 8 characters or less, you make a short one | Jan 07 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | and if longer than 8, you make a long one | Jan 07 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | Something about that (rarely) freaks Windows XP out | Jan 07 19:47 |
| DaemonFC | and you get a blue screen of death | Jan 07 19:47 |
| neighborlee | ah yes LOL | Jan 07 19:47 |
| rnb | Venezuela: Obama is worse than Bush | Jan 07 19:49 |
| rnb | haha, excellent | Jan 07 19:49 |
| rnb | "When we thought there couldn't be anything worse than Bush," Venezuelan National Assembly President Cilia Flores noted, along came Obama "masked" as the "hero of the film" who emerged as "more of the same." | Jan 07 19:50 |
| neighborlee | well in some ways , yes | Jan 07 19:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Downloads up as album sales drop - Nothing to do with the flood of identical dancing monkeys of course http://tinyurl.com/yedxbro | Jan 07 19:52 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: BBC News - Downloads up as album sales drop .::. Size~: 47.29 KB | Jan 07 19:52 |
| *KarateTiger (n=Rocket@e179019109.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 19:53 | |
| rnb | haha, excellent part 2: President Hugo Chavez may seize Toyota factory and give it to the Chinese | Jan 07 19:56 |
| rnb | Chavez said if the inspection showed Toyota was not producing what he thought it should, the government might consider taking over the facilities and have Chinese companies operate it. | Jan 07 19:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Does the anit-(Gordon)Brown feeling hurt (Ubuntu)Brown by word association? | Jan 07 19:57 | |
| KarateTiger | alright | Jan 07 20:11 |
| KarateTiger | So, I believe it's safe to use C# | Jan 07 20:11 |
| KarateTiger | tell me why I'm wrong | Jan 07 20:11 |
| neighborlee | hit here friend | Jan 07 20:12 |
| neighborlee | GAH | Jan 07 20:12 |
| neighborlee | hit/hi | Jan 07 20:12 |
| neighborlee | very sorry, that sounded horrible | Jan 07 20:12 |
| neighborlee | dain fingers today | Jan 07 20:12 |
| neighborlee | KarateTiger: I doubt everyone will chime in at the sametime..give it a few moments'ish and someone will | Jan 07 20:13 |
| neighborlee | I mean besides myself ;)) | Jan 07 20:13 |
| neighborlee | You know how I feel..lets get a opinion from someone else ;) | Jan 07 20:13 |
| ender2070 | c# sucks | Jan 07 20:13 |
| neighborlee | something more substantive would help ender ;) | Jan 07 20:15 |
| KarateTiger | yeah... I'm looking more for some arguments that would hold up in a courtroom | Jan 07 20:15 |
| *neighborlee pokes EVERYONE else in there | Jan 07 20:15 | |
| neighborlee | come on people,,he asked a legitimate question..speak up!! | Jan 07 20:15 |
| ender2070 | I don't think you'll end up in a court room over using c# | Jan 07 20:16 |
| KarateTiger | Well, let's say I'm a company that builds software using mono | Jan 07 20:17 |
| ender2070 | microsoft can't win if they sue users, they need to reach critical mass | Jan 07 20:17 |
| KarateTiger | the thing is microsoft already claims to hold lots of patents that are infringed by various linux distributions | Jan 07 20:18 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Installing @boxee beta on my Acer Aspire Revo HD box under the telly! (the box is under the telly, not me) #fb | Jan 07 20:19 | |
| ender2070 | okay | Jan 07 20:19 |
| KarateTiger | http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/ | Jan 07 20:21 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Microsoft claims software like Linux violates its patents - May 28, 2007 .::. Size~: 54.8 KB | Jan 07 20:21 |
| KarateTiger | The way patents work is, every once in a while, a company may try to extort money out of a competitor by claiming patents | Jan 07 20:24 |
| KarateTiger | It's a gamble however, legal costs may rise as a lenghty legal process takes places | Jan 07 20:24 |
| KarateTiger | Usually, there will be an agreement before the court makes a decision | Jan 07 20:25 |
| KarateTiger | It's not a danger for free software, it's a danger for companies that use it with their products | Jan 07 20:26 |
| KarateTiger | But it really is a danger for any company | Jan 07 20:26 |
| KarateTiger | I'm somebody holds the patent for "text conversation over a telecommunications network" issued in 1957 | Jan 07 20:28 |
| KarateTiger | *sure | Jan 07 20:28 |
| KarateTiger | But that doesn't stop people from writing IRC clients | Jan 07 20:28 |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Lost terminal") | Jan 07 20:28 | |
| KarateTiger | "Any free program is threatened constantly by software patents," Stallman wrote in a 1991 revision to the GPL. | Jan 07 20:30 |
| schestowitz | I didn't know MacArthur was stupid enough to ask Truman for 20-30 nuclear bombs to use against China... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LrGWNW6PM | Jan 07 20:32 |
| schestowitz | [19:10] <ThistleWeb> gwen stefani is the singer with no doubt | Jan 07 20:33 |
| KarateTiger | schestowitz: Judging by the quality of the narration I would doubt the validity of these statements | Jan 07 20:33 |
| schestowitz | Is she still around doing solo? | Jan 07 20:34 |
| KarateTiger | [citation needed]! | Jan 07 20:34 |
| schestowitz | Maybe the MAFIAA canned here for not selling loads of copies of an album | Jan 07 20:34 |
| schestowitz | Those products they call "singers" have limited shelf life, so they go to some modelling agency to pick young men and women, teaching them how to lip-synch | Jan 07 20:35 |
| schestowitz | [19:45] <neighborlee> can someone plllllllease remind me,,what the deal was with FAT in linux | Jan 07 20:35 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: I have a new page about it | Jan 07 20:35 |
| neighborlee | hm | Jan 07 20:36 |
| KarateTiger | just read wikipedia | Jan 07 20:36 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/TomTom | Jan 07 20:36 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: TomTom - Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 24.08 KB | Jan 07 20:36 |
| KarateTiger | It's a matter for the courts, as is anything | Jan 07 20:36 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: it sounds like the narrator was just reading | Jan 07 20:37 |
| KarateTiger | he didn't give any source | Jan 07 20:37 |
| KarateTiger | To me he sounds like the narrator from loose change ;) | Jan 07 20:38 |
| neighborlee | KarateTiger: btw thx for coming in here I appreciate your willingness to discuss | Jan 07 20:38 |
| neighborlee | KarateTiger: from one oss user to another ;)))) | Jan 07 20:38 |
| neighborlee | blender rocks!! | Jan 07 20:38 |
| KarateTiger | Well I kind of have more the Linus Torvalds standpoint on FOSS | Jan 07 20:39 |
| neighborlee | I dont disgree with that | Jan 07 20:39 |
| neighborlee | I'm all for nvidia, though I know many hate it cause its n ot oss | Jan 07 20:39 |
| neighborlee | so yeah I get that. | Jan 07 20:39 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QgWRycd7I&feature=related | Jan 07 20:40 |
| KarateTiger | Stallman is a radical, and if he had his way, gnu/linux wouldn't run a single nonfree program | Jan 07 20:40 |
| neighborlee | that may be, but I think on atl east the issue of mono he's right | Jan 07 20:40 |
| neighborlee | fedora agrees with him at | Jan 07 20:40 |
| neighborlee | -at | Jan 07 20:40 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jan 07 20:40 |
| KarateTiger | yeah because fedora is one of the companies to be held liable | Jan 07 20:40 |
| neighborlee | I might not think fedora is 'stable', but they are decent champions of OSS | Jan 07 20:41 |
| KarateTiger | It's the same with FFMPEG | Jan 07 20:41 |
| neighborlee | doesn't make their stance on mono wrong though | Jan 07 20:41 |
| DaemonFC | which nobody bundles as well | Jan 07 20:41 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jan 07 20:41 |
| KarateTiger | FFMPEG is great and we should all use it | Jan 07 20:41 |
| neighborlee | I dont know that much about it honeslty | Jan 07 20:41 |
| neighborlee | I stilll think the 'ecma' issue is VERY telling | Jan 07 20:42 |
| KarateTiger | I think that statement by microsoft has only been made because of all the concerns and whatnot | Jan 07 20:43 |
| neighborlee | in addition to fact, that the promise' M$ made was also found to binding only for them and their needs not oss | Jan 07 20:43 |
| neighborlee | but still | Jan 07 20:43 |
| neighborlee | you surely know what gpl means | Jan 07 20:43 |
| neighborlee | you can't tell someone to ONLY download something from them, and have it still considered 'free' | Jan 07 20:43 |
| Aondo | http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/130580/original.jpg - something wrong? :) | Jan 07 20:43 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Jan 07 20:43 |
| KarateTiger | Look at what the base framework of .net does. If you infringe on patents by implementing that, I doubt you can implement the java base framework without infringing on many of those very same patents. | Jan 07 20:44 |
| neighborlee | java is now free | Jan 07 20:44 |
| neighborlee | has been for sometime | Jan 07 20:44 |
| neighborlee | besides.. | Jan 07 20:44 |
| KarateTiger | so is the .net spec | Jan 07 20:44 |
| neighborlee | when was the last time sun sued linux...or was caught being a 'monopoly' ? ;)) | Jan 07 20:44 |
| KarateTiger | That doesn't mean an implementation of java couldn't infringe on copyrights | Jan 07 20:45 |
| KarateTiger | I mean patents | Jan 07 20:45 |
| schestowitz | [20:40] <KarateTiger> Stallman is a radical, and if he had his way, gnu/linux wouldn't run a single nonfree program | Jan 07 20:45 |
| KarateTiger | -copyrights | Jan 07 20:45 |
| schestowitz | Define radical | Jan 07 20:45 |
| KarateTiger | Somebody who takes a standpoint that accepts no compromise | Jan 07 20:45 |
| schestowitz | One person's "radical" is another's "normal" (meaning average of surrounding populace) | Jan 07 20:45 |
| KarateTiger | No, that's not what the word radical means | Jan 07 20:46 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: actually, RMS changs his mind | Jan 07 20:46 |
| KarateTiger | But of course, if you're a radical yourself, it will seem normal to you ;) | Jan 07 20:46 |
| schestowitz | E.g. CC and GDPL | Jan 07 20:46 |
| schestowitz | "Radical, from Late Latin radicalis "of roots" and from Latin radix "root", may refer to" | Jan 07 20:46 |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical | Jan 07 20:46 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Radical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 26.07 KB | Jan 07 20:46 |
| KarateTiger | disambiguation | Jan 07 20:47 |
| schestowitz | RMS is rooted in the idea that software ought to be free | Jan 07 20:47 |
| schestowitz | Many people are rooted in the idea that abortions are necessary sometimes | Jan 07 20:47 |
| DaemonFC | they need to abort the mother | Jan 07 20:47 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: how am I radical? | Jan 07 20:47 |
| schestowitz | Pls explain :-) | Jan 07 20:48 |
| KarateTiger | I saif IF you are a radical | Jan 07 20:48 |
| KarateTiger | being radical will probably seem normal to you | Jan 07 20:48 |
| DaemonFC | they need to expand abortions | Jan 07 20:48 |
| schestowitz | Oh, I read it sloppily | Jan 07 20:48 |
| schestowitz | What makes RMS "radical"? | Jan 07 20:48 |
| DaemonFC | to where you can just kill your kid up to age 18 | Jan 07 20:48 |
| schestowitz | A lot of influential people get called that | Jan 07 20:48 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: lol | Jan 07 20:49 |
| DaemonFC | give you plenty of time to think it over | Jan 07 20:49 |
| KarateTiger | he does not accept proprietary software in any form | Jan 07 20:49 |
| schestowitz | It's like when Brits said Napoleon had one testicle | Jan 07 20:49 |
| schestowitz | These are smears | Jan 07 20:49 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jan 07 20:49 |
| KarateTiger | Linux Torvalds does. In fact, he's been using it to develop the linux kernel. | Jan 07 20:49 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: he is in a position where he sets an example | Jan 07 20:49 |
| DaemonFC | neighborlee: I could see it now "It is a defense for the parent to claim the murder was an abortion" | Jan 07 20:49 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: do did RMS | Jan 07 20:50 |
| schestowitz | He used it to develop GNU | Jan 07 20:50 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: heh | Jan 07 20:50 |
| DaemonFC | your kid pisses you off while you're watching Oprah | Jan 07 20:50 |
| KarateTiger | yeah, but back then he had no real choice | Jan 07 20:50 |
| DaemonFC | shoot the little bastard | Jan 07 20:50 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: stranger things have happened sadly yes ;) | Jan 07 20:50 |
| DaemonFC | it's your right as a parent | Jan 07 20:50 |
| KarateTiger | Since "free software" as he defined it had to come into existence yet | Jan 07 20:50 |
| neighborlee | I tend to go with the muslim view of abortion | Jan 07 20:50 |
| neighborlee | ONLY up to 3rd trimster is it ?? | Jan 07 20:50 |
| *neighborlee is not a abortion expert | Jan 07 20:50 | |
| DaemonFC | neighborlee: That you can abort anyone who isn't a Muslim? | Jan 07 20:51 |
| MinceR | 214834 < DaemonFC> to where you can just kill your kid up to age 18 | Jan 07 20:51 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Jan 07 20:51 |
| MinceR | why those limits? | Jan 07 20:51 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: nono LOL | Jan 07 20:51 |
| MinceR | "your kid" and "up to age 18"? | Jan 07 20:51 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: I just said ,,islams VIEW of it | Jan 07 20:51 |
| neighborlee | :)) | Jan 07 20:51 |
| MinceR | i'd like to "abort" some people... | Jan 07 20:51 |
| DaemonFC | well, the law typically says that they're a child until 18 | Jan 07 20:51 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jan 07 20:51 |
| KarateTiger | abortion the way you kind do it england is murder | Jan 07 20:51 |
| DaemonFC | in some cases you should be able to abort them up to 21 | Jan 07 20:51 |
| DaemonFC | depending on their emancipation status | Jan 07 20:51 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: in theory, that is correct..hell, our brains aren't even MATURE until later on>> | Jan 07 20:51 |
| KarateTiger | there are children who survived abortions | Jan 07 20:52 |
| neighborlee | so yeah..before 18 we are still infants practically ;) | Jan 07 20:52 |
| neighborlee | tell me we dont all resemble that remark! ;)) | Jan 07 20:52 |
| DaemonFC | KarateTiger: I'd sue my parents if I found out that they had tried to do that and I lived through it | Jan 07 20:52 |
| KarateTiger | Sue them for what? | Jan 07 20:52 |
| *sebsebseb (n=3seb@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 20:52 | |
| DaemonFC | there's no criminal law against attempted murder in that case | Jan 07 20:53 |
| DaemonFC | so you'd have to sue them | Jan 07 20:53 |
| sebsebseb | Hi | Jan 07 20:53 |
| DaemonFC | KarateTiger: What I don't get is why we don't legalize cutting children older than 9 months into tiny pieces and disposing of them | Jan 07 20:54 |
| DaemonFC | seems kind of discriminatory to me, is all I'm saying | Jan 07 20:54 |
| KarateTiger | well, that still is a difference | Jan 07 20:54 |
| DaemonFC | not really | Jan 07 20:54 |
| KarateTiger | an aborted child usually has no chance of survival | Jan 07 20:54 |
| DaemonFC | if you savagely murder them on this side of the pussy, it's a crime | Jan 07 20:55 |
| KarateTiger | But that depends on how much developed it is | Jan 07 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | but if they haven't come out yet, it's not | Jan 07 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | I just want it to be fair :D | Jan 07 20:55 |
| KarateTiger | a fetus that is 3 weeks old doesn't even have brainwaves | Jan 07 20:55 |
| trmanco | http://madsheytan.blogspot.com/2010/01/kde-44-zrzuty-i-screencast.html | Jan 07 20:55 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Zainteresowania i pasje: KDE 4.4 - zrzuty i screencast .::. Size~: 91.06 KB | Jan 07 20:55 |
| trmanco | just got that | Jan 07 20:55 |
| DaemonFC | so if you're in a coma and I kill you, it's not a crime | Jan 07 20:56 |
| KarateTiger | If I believed in the concept of a soul, I'd say "It doesn't have a soul yet" | Jan 07 20:56 |
| DaemonFC | cause you weren't self-aware at the moment | Jan 07 20:56 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think any court would believe that | Jan 07 20:56 |
| KarateTiger | having no brainwaves means more than not being "self-aware" | Jan 07 20:56 |
| KarateTiger | If you're brain-dead, you're dead to me | Jan 07 20:56 |
| KarateTiger | Terry Shiavo was dead | Jan 07 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not religious, I just don't see how a doctor could murder and carve a human being up | Jan 07 20:57 |
| MinceR | what about crApple cultists? | Jan 07 20:57 |
| MinceR | are they brain-dead enough? :) | Jan 07 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | I'd have trouble killing someone that could defend themselves | Jan 07 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jan 07 20:57 |
| _goblin | is this going somewhere? | Jan 07 20:57 |
| DaemonFC | yes _goblin we're going to abort you | Jan 07 20:58 |
| DaemonFC | it wo't hurt much | Jan 07 20:58 |
| _goblin | ah....I see the level its at now. | Jan 07 20:58 |
| DaemonFC | you'll make the hitman a lot of money on the way out | Jan 07 20:58 |
| _goblin | ah. | Jan 07 20:58 |
| DaemonFC | seriously, most hit men don't get paid what a doctor does | Jan 07 20:58 |
| DaemonFC | they're getting screwed | Jan 07 20:59 |
| MinceR | don't you think the hitman would ask for the same sum to kill you, DaemonFC? :> | Jan 07 20:59 |
| _goblin | how many hitmen do you know? what about hitwomen? is there equality in the paystructure for contract killers? | Jan 07 20:59 |
| _goblin | that was @daemonFC | Jan 07 20:59 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: Maybe $10,000 or so | Jan 07 20:59 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: female abortionists | Jan 07 20:59 |
| MinceR | so, is that your "stimulus package", then? :> | Jan 07 21:00 |
| DaemonFC | abortion doctors are part of the "medical industry" | Jan 07 21:00 |
| DaemonFC | you know, the one that helps people | Jan 07 21:00 |
| neighborlee | except those killed by true 'radical's ? ;)) | Jan 07 21:00 |
| neighborlee | yeah, dont get me started | Jan 07 21:00 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: The Medical Industrial Complex | Jan 07 21:00 |
| DaemonFC | maybe the $12,000 they charge includes helping you dig a hole in the backyard | Jan 07 21:00 |
| DaemonFC | oh wait, the law protects these assholes | Jan 07 21:00 |
| _goblin | DaemonFC: Are you religious? | Jan 07 21:00 |
| schestowitz | Was it Roosevelt who warned that they would hijack the system for extortio... insurance money? | Jan 07 21:01 |
| DaemonFC | DaemonFC: I already said I'm not | Jan 07 21:01 |
| neighborlee | _goblin: I am too just in case it matters | Jan 07 21:01 |
| DaemonFC | errr | Jan 07 21:01 |
| neighborlee | o_0 | Jan 07 21:01 |
| DaemonFC | _goblin: | Jan 07 21:01 |
| neighborlee | heh | Jan 07 21:01 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: so you think that people who conceive a child by mistake should be forced to finance the upbringing of that child? | Jan 07 21:01 |
| schestowitz | Nobody is religious | Jan 07 21:01 |
| _goblin | daemonFC: so then please tell me, if you are not...then "thou shalt not kill" really doesnt have the same meaning does it? | Jan 07 21:01 |
| schestowitz | It's like saying, "are you an alien?" | Jan 07 21:01 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz: its a BROAD topic ;) | Jan 07 21:01 |
| DaemonFC | I don't like the people going out there and saying "God doesn't like *whatever*" | Jan 07 21:01 |
| _goblin | daemonFC: on what basis are you against abortion? | Jan 07 21:01 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: exactly | Jan 07 21:02 |
| DaemonFC | but there's some things that are just depraved | Jan 07 21:02 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: :-) | Jan 07 21:02 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC: though sometimes it IS relevant | Jan 07 21:02 |
| DaemonFC | depraved and with a victim | Jan 07 21:02 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: do we really have such a shortage of population that we need to hold on to every embryo? | Jan 07 21:02 |
| DaemonFC | this isn't just something you can shrug and say "victimless crime" | Jan 07 21:02 |
| _goblin | DaemonFC: never said it was....I ask for the basis of your morals. | Jan 07 21:03 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: The government gives you 90 days in jail if you have alcohol and are under 21 but over 18 | Jan 07 21:03 |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #NY Metro train nearly runs over safety inspectors http://ur1.ca/j9mj | Jan 07 21:03 | |
| -BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #AMD releases awesome, now in mobile flavor http://ur1.ca/j9mk | Jan 07 21:03 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Metro train nearly hits independent safety inspectors - washingtonpost.com .::. Size~: 103.73 KB | Jan 07 21:03 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: ubuntu? | Jan 07 21:03 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Slashdot Mobile Story | AMD Launches World's First Mobile DirectX 11 GPUs .::. Size~: 74.7 KB | Jan 07 21:03 |
| DaemonFC | The government gives you a year for an ounce of pot | Jan 07 21:03 |
| _goblin | KDE or Gnome? | Jan 07 21:03 |
| DaemonFC | they decriminalized murder of an infant though | Jan 07 21:03 |
| DaemonFC | it's all about population control | Jan 07 21:04 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: who, me? | Jan 07 21:04 |
| schestowitz | I was saying, morals come from ubuntu | Jan 07 21:04 |
| _goblin | DaemonFC: and I seem to remember you be all for letting people die in third world countries.... | Jan 07 21:04 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: they do a lot of stupid things | Jan 07 21:04 |
| schestowitz | Inner compassion | Jan 07 21:04 |
| DaemonFC | the UN's agenda says legalize abortion | Jan 07 21:04 |
| _goblin | DaemonFC: thats why I had you on ignore for a few months. | Jan 07 21:04 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: like discriminate against certain kinds of narcotics but not others | Jan 07 21:04 |
| DaemonFC | basically do everything to get it other than rewrite a countries laws | Jan 07 21:04 |
| schestowitz | If you see a kid with a candy, you'd have to be deranged or desperate to kill the kid for the candy | Jan 07 21:04 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: They penalize the victimless crimes while doling out slaps on the wrist for things that cause harm to others | Jan 07 21:06 |
| DaemonFC | it makes no sense to me at all | Jan 07 21:06 |
| KarateTiger | well, you gotta be able to abort at some point | Jan 07 21:07 |
| _goblin | daemonFC: tell me a victimless crime.... | Jan 07 21:07 |
| KarateTiger | a 9 week old embryo is not an infant | Jan 07 21:07 |
| DaemonFC | you see people get 3-4 DUIs before they take their license away | Jan 07 21:07 |
| DaemonFC | but the cops stop and bother people that were walking home drunk instead of risking killing people | Jan 07 21:07 |
| _goblin | cops/courts.... two different things my friend. | Jan 07 21:07 |
| DaemonFC | it's gotten to where DUI is barely even a crime | Jan 07 21:08 |
| MinceR | you also see convicted monopolists get to hand over their lunch money and keep doing what they were convicted for | Jan 07 21:08 |
| KarateTiger | lol | Jan 07 21:08 |
| KarateTiger | "convicted monopolists" | Jan 07 21:08 |
| KarateTiger | You gotta have shit for brains | Jan 07 21:08 |
| MinceR | let's hear your defense of m$, then | Jan 07 21:08 |
| MinceR | we're all ears | Jan 07 21:08 |
| KarateTiger | First, look up what "conviction" means | Jan 07 21:09 |
| MinceR | or random insults are all you can provide? | Jan 07 21:09 |
| DaemonFC | the laws give the courts way too much control over sentencing | Jan 07 21:09 |
| ender2070 | KarateTiger - US vs Microsoft, EU vs Microsoft, Opera vs Microsoft | Jan 07 21:09 |
| _goblin | ? daemonFC you serious? | Jan 07 21:09 |
| DaemonFC | it gets to where a few very connected people get slapped on the wrist for the same crimes others spend life in prison over | Jan 07 21:09 |
| DaemonFC | _goblin: Yeah, I believe in mandatory minimum sentencing on some things | Jan 07 21:10 |
| _goblin | daemonFC: really? Doesnt work.....why? Because you can't blanket every case with a min sentence. | Jan 07 21:10 |
| _goblin | for example: | Jan 07 21:10 |
| _goblin | if you had a min tarif for murder.... | Jan 07 21:10 |
| DaemonFC | that's why there are degrees of murder | Jan 07 21:11 |
| DaemonFC | the law already allows for leniency depending on the circumstances | Jan 07 21:11 |
| _goblin | would it be proportionate for a victim of domestic violence who plots to kill her partner get the same sentence as murder of another kind... | Jan 07 21:11 |
| _goblin | UK law has murder/Mansaughter. | Jan 07 21:11 |
| KarateTiger | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft | Jan 07 21:12 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: United States v. Microsoft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 98.47 KB | Jan 07 21:12 |
| KarateTiger | settlement | Jan 07 21:12 |
| DaemonFC | if it's pre-meditated, the minimum they should be able to get is 30 years | Jan 07 21:12 |
| _goblin | really? | Jan 07 21:12 |
| DaemonFC | no matter what | Jan 07 21:12 |
| _goblin | even the badly beaten wife? | Jan 07 21:12 |
| DaemonFC | and no parole during that time | Jan 07 21:12 |
| _goblin | who feared for her life? | Jan 07 21:12 |
| _goblin | who maybe saw the man kill her child? | Jan 07 21:12 |
| KarateTiger | Microsoft has never been "convicted" of monopoly | Jan 07 21:12 |
| _goblin | that would be proportionate? | Jan 07 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | minimums don't say the court can't give you more years | Jan 07 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | they say "not less than" | Jan 07 21:13 |
| _goblin | true...but then you can't go on the less than.... | Jan 07 21:13 |
| _goblin | otherwise you do encourage miscarrages of justice.... | Jan 07 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | helps with the problem of a high priced lawyer | Jan 07 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | goes in there and gets you counseling for savagely murdering your wife :D | Jan 07 21:13 |
| DaemonFC | some probation too :D | Jan 07 21:14 |
| KarateTiger | also, the case in the EU isn't about monopoly, it's about business practices | Jan 07 21:14 |
| _goblin | you cannot blanket crime since every incident needs to be looked at individually. | Jan 07 21:14 |
| MinceR | anticompetitive business practices. | Jan 07 21:14 |
| DaemonFC | _goblin: I walked through the prison my aunt works at | Jan 07 21:14 |
| _goblin | yeah.....and? | Jan 07 21:14 |
| DaemonFC | they segregate prisoners based on the seriousness of the crime they got convicted of, on paper | Jan 07 21:14 |
| _goblin | and? | Jan 07 21:15 |
| DaemonFC | she said really they mix and match because the biggest difference is what lawyer they got | Jan 07 21:15 |
| *ender2070 has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 07 21:15 | |
| _goblin | now that I do agree with. | Jan 07 21:15 |
| DaemonFC | so you have cold blooded murderers on level 3 because the lawyer got it down to manslaughter | Jan 07 21:15 |
| DaemonFC | and the poor people who should have had 2nd degree murder, they get the public defender | Jan 07 21:16 |
| DaemonFC | and end up on level 1 | Jan 07 21:16 |
| _goblin | not just the lawyer (if it works like UK) | Jan 07 21:16 |
| _goblin | heres what happens: | Jan 07 21:16 |
| _goblin | CPS has a case which it has a 50 50 chance of getting a guilty verdict..... | Jan 07 21:16 |
| _goblin | suspect is pleading not guilty. | Jan 07 21:16 |
| DaemonFC | so don't think the guy on level 4 is any less dangerous than the guy on level 1 | Jan 07 21:16 |
| _goblin | in order to get a result, its agreed that a lesser charge of manslaughter is pled guilty to. | Jan 07 21:17 |
| DaemonFC | even though he's less dangerous on paper | Jan 07 21:17 |
| _goblin | the alternative would be.... | Jan 07 21:17 |
| _goblin | murderer gets found not guilty. | Jan 07 21:17 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: no, convictions | Jan 07 21:17 |
| schestowitz | Do your homework | Jan 07 21:17 |
| schestowitz | Korea in 2009 for example | Jan 07 21:17 |
| schestowitz | TWICE even, in Korea, in one year | Jan 07 21:17 |
| DaemonFC | _goblin: The prosecutor does it most often for lack of evidence | Jan 07 21:18 |
| schestowitz | [21:12] <KarateTiger> Microsoft has never been "convicted" of monopoly | Jan 07 21:18 |
| schestowitz | Lie. | Jan 07 21:18 |
| KarateTiger | you just googled that up | Jan 07 21:18 |
| DaemonFC | for her it's a conviction, for the scumbag, he signs it so he doesn't get convicted of murder | Jan 07 21:18 |
| *Ender2070 (n=Ender207@bas1-toronto12-1167878414.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 21:18 | |
| DaemonFC | it's bargaining over the punishment based on how strong the state thinks the case is | Jan 07 21:18 |
| _goblin | true.. but better than a 50 50 case finding him not guilty | Jan 07 21:18 |
| _goblin | if the case is loaded with evidence, then this would not happen | Jan 07 21:19 |
| schestowitz | *sigh* | Jan 07 21:19 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: should he have it binged it then? would that have matched your "tastes" better? | Jan 07 21:19 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: I know what you're here for | Jan 07 21:19 |
| schestowitz | I'm not going to discuss this further | Jan 07 21:19 |
| _goblin | karate? | Jan 07 21:19 |
| _goblin | ;) | Jan 07 21:19 |
| DaemonFC | you get manslaughter, you're locked up for 5 years and you go home | Jan 07 21:19 |
| DaemonFC | (with 5 years suspended) | Jan 07 21:19 |
| _goblin | more than being found not guilty though. | Jan 07 21:19 |
| DaemonFC | so it's barely a conviction, surely not what they deserved | Jan 07 21:20 |
| _goblin | and as I say, this kind of bargaining only happens in cases where a guilty verdict is not gauranteed. | Jan 07 21:20 |
| DaemonFC | but yes, it beats nothing | Jan 07 21:20 |
| schestowitz | http://insidesocal.com/click/2010/01/are-you-having-a-debian-key-is.html | Jan 07 21:20 |
| _goblin | like I say if the evidence in concrete then it doesnt come into play. | Jan 07 21:20 |
| _goblin | a good brief will be able to pick able flaws in evidence such as continuity etc... | Jan 07 21:21 |
| *tessier is now known as turgid | Jan 07 21:21 | |
| *turgid is now known as tessier | Jan 07 21:21 | |
| *schestowitz thinks tessier made a joke in another channel :-) | Jan 07 21:21 | |
| _goblin | for DUI in the UK, a procedure has to be exactly followed, otherwise the evidence can be dismissed. | Jan 07 21:22 |
| _goblin | a good brief would notice... | Jan 07 21:22 |
| KarateTiger | I wouldn't call what Microsoft does "a crime" | Jan 07 21:22 |
| KarateTiger | bundling their browser and media player in korea | Jan 07 21:22 |
| tessier | Indeed I did. :) | Jan 07 21:22 |
| tessier | But I enjoy amusing the folks in other channels who aren't in on the joke. | Jan 07 21:23 |
| tessier | There is a guy with the nick "flaccid" in #django so I had to have a go at him. | Jan 07 21:23 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: that's kind of obvious you wouldn't, by now. | Jan 07 21:23 |
| KarateTiger | And you do? *lol* | Jan 07 21:24 |
| MinceR | wow, a brilliant argument often employed by m$ apologists: "lol" | Jan 07 21:24 |
| KarateTiger | Tell me you find the bundling of a media player and web browser a criminal offence | Jan 07 21:25 |
| MinceR | it's a way m$ tries to use its (ill-gotten) dominance of the desktop OS market in order to eliminate competition in the media player and web browser markets. | Jan 07 21:26 |
| KarateTiger | what market? | Jan 07 21:26 |
| KarateTiger | There is not market | Jan 07 21:26 |
| KarateTiger | Nobody sells media players | Jan 07 21:26 |
| MinceR | there won't be, if m$ has their way | Jan 07 21:27 |
| KarateTiger | Nobody selles Web browsers | Jan 07 21:27 |
| MinceR | wrong | Jan 07 21:27 |
| MinceR | 1) selling licenses is not the only way to make money with such apps | Jan 07 21:27 |
| schestowitz | Opera makes money | Jan 07 21:27 |
| MinceR | 2) opera does indeed sell web browsers | Jan 07 21:27 |
| schestowitz | Mobiles for starters | Jan 07 21:27 |
| KarateTiger | lol yeah opera | Jan 07 21:27 |
| MinceR | hm, come to think of it, the license of IE requires a windows license, which isn't free of charge | Jan 07 21:27 |
| schestowitz | oh noes! The channel became a confrontation with Microsoft apologists | Jan 07 21:27 |
| MinceR | so in a way they do sell IE, tied with winblows | Jan 07 21:28 |
| KarateTiger | Not bundling a browser with an OS, that's ridiculous | Jan 07 21:28 |
| MinceR | yeah, we were all laughing in the nineties | Jan 07 21:28 |
| MinceR | constantly | Jan 07 21:28 |
| KarateTiger | How am I gonna download another browser from the web, when there isn't even one installed? | Jan 07 21:28 |
| MinceR | and in the eighties | Jan 07 21:29 |
| _goblin | I was just going to say that...Unless IE is going to be released for Linux... Its a little like a free toy in a box of flakes.....you don't get the toy unless you buy the breakfast. | Jan 07 21:29 |
| MinceR | ftp? package manager? wget? install media? | Jan 07 21:29 |
| KarateTiger | wget *lol* | Jan 07 21:29 |
| MinceR | of course the thought of preinstalling multiple browsers is also unthinkable | Jan 07 21:29 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah tell your grandma to wget http://mozilla.com/firefox.exe | Jan 07 21:29 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: 404: Page Not Found .::. Size~: 16.71 KB | Jan 07 21:29 |
| MinceR | yeah, we all know my grandma is the only computer user in the world | Jan 07 21:29 |
| KarateTiger | It's not unthinkable, but it's not something very reasonable | Jan 07 21:30 |
| MinceR | yeah, if m$ isn't doing it then it can't be reasonable, can it? | Jan 07 21:30 |
| KarateTiger | Come one, how many "normal" people do you know who know what ftp is | Jan 07 21:30 |
| MinceR | that depends on how you define "normal" | Jan 07 21:30 |
| KarateTiger | Does your mother know what ftp is? Does she use a computer? | Jan 07 21:30 |
| _goblin | oh dear.... | Jan 07 21:30 |
| MinceR | if she doesn't use a computer, does she need a web browser? | Jan 07 21:30 |
| *neighborlee has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jan 07 21:31 | |
| KarateTiger | My point is, maybe she DOES use a computer and DESPITE using it, does not know what FTP is | Jan 07 21:31 |
| _goblin | theres the justification....."We at Microsoft should be able to do as we like, afterall its simple enough for Grandma" - How does Grandma deal with an infected Windows platform? | Jan 07 21:31 |
| KarateTiger | ugh | Jan 07 21:31 |
| MinceR | hm, there's of course an obvious way to choose a web browser to install without having one preinstalled -- m$ happens to be implementing it for winblows now | Jan 07 21:31 |
| KarateTiger | You guys are so single-minded | Jan 07 21:31 |
| MinceR | but i'm sure you haven't heard of it | Jan 07 21:31 |
| _goblin | What does Grandma do with a BSOD? | Jan 07 21:31 |
| MinceR | no, she doesn't use a computer | Jan 07 21:32 |
| KarateTiger | yeah because they were forced to do it | Jan 07 21:32 |
| KarateTiger | Not that I'm not happy about it | Jan 07 21:32 |
| MinceR | i'm sure you aren't | Jan 07 21:32 |
| _goblin | lol. | Jan 07 21:32 |
| KarateTiger | But the IE is the Explorer | Jan 07 21:32 |
| MinceR | do they pay you less now that they were forced to do that? | Jan 07 21:32 |
| KarateTiger | At least in parts | Jan 07 21:32 |
| KarateTiger | The IE rendering engine is an integral part of the OS | Jan 07 21:32 |
| MinceR | yeah, tell that to the utilities that rip IE out of winblows install media | Jan 07 21:33 |
| KarateTiger | The help system builds on it | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | and by magic still end up with explorer | Jan 07 21:33 |
| KarateTiger | Many programs use it (unfortunately) | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | it's not the only rendering engine in the world | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | though it's the only m$html rendering engine | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | others tend to be standards compliant | Jan 07 21:33 |
| KarateTiger | yeah but it's BUNDLED with the OS | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | i see how that might hurt you | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | yeah, that's the problem | Jan 07 21:33 |
| KarateTiger | So I don't have to bundle a rendering engine with every application I deliver | Jan 07 21:33 |
| MinceR | have you ever heard of shared libraries? | Jan 07 21:34 |
| MinceR | i'm pretty sure even m$ knows about those | Jan 07 21:34 |
| KarateTiger | yeah, and I have lots of them | Jan 07 21:34 |
| KarateTiger | So alright, there now are 10 different shared libraries on my system that all do the same thing: render html | Jan 07 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Grandma does not install WIndows | Jan 07 21:34 |
| schestowitz | The OEM does | Jan 07 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft blocked OEMs from installing NS | Jan 07 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Or giving it icons | Jan 07 21:35 |
| MinceR | yeah, it would be so nice if there were no IT companies besides m$, wouldn't it? | Jan 07 21:35 |
| schestowitz | Do some homework | Jan 07 21:35 |
| MinceR | who needs a free market? | Jan 07 21:35 |
| MinceR | who needs competition? | Jan 07 21:35 |
| schestowitz | Better yet, KarateTiger, here is a pasttime for you | Jan 07 21:35 |
| schestowitz | http://en.digitalkamera.com/make-a-paper-tux-linux-penguin-in-less-than-15-minutes | Jan 07 21:35 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Make a paper Tux Linux penguin in less than 15 minutes!! « DigitalKamera .::. Size~: 23.65 KB | Jan 07 21:35 |
| schestowitz | Come back when you're done | Jan 07 21:35 |
| MinceR | who needs non-crap IT products? | Jan 07 21:35 |
| KarateTiger | questions over questions | Jan 07 21:35 |
| MinceR | when you can have m$ hw that is broken more than half the time? | Jan 07 21:35 |
| MinceR | and when you can have useless m$ crap software? | Jan 07 21:35 |
| schestowitz | I love how Microsoft rewrites huistory | Jan 07 21:36 |
| KarateTiger | what does that have to do with anything | Jan 07 21:36 |
| schestowitz | Technowaffle it's called | Jan 07 21:36 |
| MinceR | if m$ products are so great, why do people want something else? | Jan 07 21:36 |
| schestowitz | Like, "people need the OEMs to preinstall Windows" | Jan 07 21:36 |
| KarateTiger | I'm not saying M$ makes great sofware | Jan 07 21:36 |
| KarateTiger | It mostly doesn't | Jan 07 21:36 |
| schestowitz | But looking back at documents, it's all nonsense | Jan 07 21:36 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 21:36 |
| MinceR | you're saying that others shouldn't have the chance to compete with m$ | Jan 07 21:36 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft invented this later as an excuse | Jan 07 21:36 |
| KarateTiger | But they damn sure should be able to couple their crappy Media Player and their crappy Browser with their crappy OS | Jan 07 21:36 |
| MinceR | you're saying that a m$ monopoly should be forced over software | Jan 07 21:37 |
| MinceR | no they shouldn't | Jan 07 21:37 |
| MinceR | and they shouldn't even be able to foist their crap OS on anyone | Jan 07 21:37 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: he'd go forever. Won't give up | Jan 07 21:37 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: well, kickban him, then. | Jan 07 21:37 |
| schestowitz | Dyed in the wool, indoctrinating | Jan 07 21:37 |
| schestowitz | It started by calling RMS "radical" | Jan 07 21:37 |
| KarateTiger | lol | Jan 07 21:37 |
| KarateTiger | even torvalds called rms a radical | Jan 07 21:38 |
| schestowitz | I gave him the benefit of the doubt and asked for explanations | Jan 07 21:38 |
| *schestowitz back to some important things | Jan 07 21:38 | |
| KarateTiger | yeah you did all you could | Jan 07 21:38 |
| trmanco | http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/app-security/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222200556 | Jan 07 21:38 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Red Hat CEO On Recession, Virtualization, Ballmer -- Enterprise Linux -- InformationWeek .::. Size~: 80.31 KB | Jan 07 21:39 |
| KarateTiger | But now it's obvious | Jan 07 21:39 |
| schestowitz | http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/RawTherapee-3-0-Alpha-1-released-under-GPL-license-896214.html | Jan 07 21:39 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: RawTherapee 3.0 Alpha 1 released under GPL license - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.07 KB | Jan 07 21:39 |
| KarateTiger | Somebody has a different opinion and therefore MUST be a troll | Jan 07 21:39 |
| schestowitz | In this channel it is | Jan 07 21:39 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: you forgot to cover your ears and sing "lalalalala i can't hear you!" | Jan 07 21:39 |
| schestowitz | I don't go to WIndows channels to call Ballmer a gangster that should be imprisoned | Jan 07 21:39 |
| MinceR | prisons are too good for that asshole though | Jan 07 21:40 |
| KarateTiger | I wouldn't be so sure about that | Jan 07 21:40 |
| _goblin | No karatetiger: I have a different opinion on many subjects here. | Jan 07 21:40 |
| KarateTiger | Also, I didn't call for the imprisonment of anybody | Jan 07 21:40 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: you surely must be a saint then | Jan 07 21:40 |
| KarateTiger | Uh | Jan 07 21:40 |
| KarateTiger | yeah | Jan 07 21:40 |
| KarateTiger | You know | Jan 07 21:40 |
| KarateTiger | Talking to you sucks | Jan 07 21:40 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 21:40 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: don't do it, then. | Jan 07 21:40 |
| _goblin | did it take you long to think up that witty come back Karatetiger? | Jan 07 21:41 |
| KarateTiger | agreed | Jan 07 21:41 |
| MinceR | i think he looked it up in the m$ trolling manual | Jan 07 21:41 |
| KarateTiger | Come on | Jan 07 21:41 |
| KarateTiger | "KarateTiger: you surely must be a saint then" what the fuck is that | Jan 07 21:41 |
| MinceR | oh wait, they call it "evangelism", not "trolling" | Jan 07 21:41 |
| KarateTiger | yeah yeah I'm an M$ troll | Jan 07 21:42 |
| KarateTiger | get over it | Jan 07 21:42 |
| _goblin | I don't think you are. | Jan 07 21:42 |
| MinceR | we all know, no need to reiterate. | Jan 07 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Surveys: IT job satisfaction plummets to all-time low http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9143194/Surveys_IT_job_satisfaction_plummets_to_all_time_low | Jan 07 21:42 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Surveys: IT job satisfaction plummets to all-time low .::. Size~: 126.56 KB | Jan 07 21:42 |
| _goblin | I don't believe for one minute MS would pay for rubbish like KarateTigers "arguments" | Jan 07 21:42 |
| MinceR | well, i know mine did plummet to an all-time low | Jan 07 21:42 |
| MinceR | _goblin: maybe he's doing it as a hobby | Jan 07 21:43 |
| _goblin | thats frightening..... | Jan 07 21:43 |
| MinceR | or for future hopes of being employed at a not-yet-bankrupt m$ | Jan 07 21:43 |
| _goblin | MVP!!!!!! | Jan 07 21:43 |
| tessier | schestowitz: Seems like with the economy how it is nearly all job satisfaction would have fallen | Jan 07 21:43 |
| KarateTiger | ugh | Jan 07 21:43 |
| schestowitz | I know | Jan 07 21:43 |
| MinceR | like de icaza did | Jan 07 21:43 |
| schestowitz | tessier: surveys.... lies, damn lies... | Jan 07 21:43 |
| KarateTiger | You don't seem to be able to think in any other colors than black or white | Jan 07 21:43 |
| _goblin | who? | Jan 07 21:44 |
| KarateTiger | Mincer | Jan 07 21:44 |
| _goblin | I would challenge that... | Jan 07 21:44 |
| _goblin | if you behave like an adult, you usually get the same back in kind. | Jan 07 21:44 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: just because i see black as black and white as black doesn't mean i'm not aware of the range in between | Jan 07 21:44 |
| KarateTiger | But it's okay, that will make it easier for you to order the world into things you approve of and things you disagree with | Jan 07 21:44 |
| _goblin | its called opinion... | Jan 07 21:45 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: m$ makes it easy for me to disapprove of everything they do | Jan 07 21:45 |
| MinceR | nothing they do is defensible from either an ethical or a technical viewpoint | Jan 07 21:45 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah, they're the Israel of Software Companies | Jan 07 21:45 |
| _goblin | Karatetiger: Can you honestly say that MS doesnt have a problem when only in the last few weeks we read about the Plurk incident? | Jan 07 21:45 |
| _goblin | Its not MS products I have a problem with, its MS behaviour and tactics | Jan 07 21:46 |
| MinceR | israel is an entirely separate issue, afaik | Jan 07 21:46 |
| KarateTiger | When did I say they don't have any problems? | Jan 07 21:46 |
| MinceR | you said they should be allowed to bundle apps to leverage their near monopoly to destroy competition in other markets | Jan 07 21:46 |
| _goblin | You didn't but IMO you are trying to imply MS as a victim of "black and white thinking" users here. | Jan 07 21:46 |
| KarateTiger | No, I only said they should be able to bundle a web browser and a media player | Jan 07 21:46 |
| MinceR | you also claimed that m$ was never convicted of monopolism | Jan 07 21:46 |
| KarateTiger | Also, their software is so crappy, they SUPPORT the competition | Jan 07 21:47 |
| MinceR | 224637 < KarateTiger> No, I only said they should be able to bundle a web browser and a media player | Jan 07 21:47 |
| MinceR | which is exactly what i said | Jan 07 21:47 |
| KarateTiger | I mean, Windows Media Player couldn't even play DVDs up until Vista | Jan 07 21:47 |
| _goblin | Please don't mention the V word | Jan 07 21:47 |
| MinceR | and no, making OEM deals forcing users to pay the m$ tax no matter what is not supporting the competition | Jan 07 21:47 |
| KarateTiger | MinceR: See, that's what your problem is | Jan 07 21:47 |
| _goblin | I get flashbacks | Jan 07 21:47 |
| MinceR | breaking open standards so that only their products can be used to access data and services is not supporting the competition either. | Jan 07 21:48 |
| KarateTiger | You added your "opionion" on top of what I said | Jan 07 21:48 |
| MinceR | bribing governments to destroy competition is not supporting competition either. | Jan 07 21:48 |
| KarateTiger | I didn't call for the destruction of any competition | Jan 07 21:48 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: no, i added "facts" on top of the scarce "facts" you mentioned. | Jan 07 21:48 |
| _goblin | lets also not forget about the retail training slides MS put out to electrical stores.... | Jan 07 21:48 |
| KarateTiger | lets just forget about "facts" | Jan 07 21:48 |
| MinceR | yeah, let's | Jan 07 21:49 |
| tessier | Facts are overrated. | Jan 07 21:49 |
| _goblin | yes MS likes doing that. | Jan 07 21:49 |
| MinceR | like you m$ apologists do all the time | Jan 07 21:49 |
| _goblin | or even simpler just blame someone else... | Jan 07 21:49 |
| tessier | Why would anyone come in here trying to make a case for a convicted monopolist? | Jan 07 21:49 |
| KarateTiger | lol, that term again | Jan 07 21:49 |
| MinceR | to get attention | Jan 07 21:49 |
| tessier | I can only theorize they see Windows as almost their way of life, especially if it their job. | Jan 07 21:49 |
| KarateTiger | It's like "convicted rapist" | Jan 07 21:49 |
| tessier | KarateTiger: There is a difference between a rapist and a convicted rapist isn't there? | Jan 07 21:50 |
| MinceR | 'lol, they were found guilty -- who cares?' | Jan 07 21:50 |
| KarateTiger | Just because some court ruled that the market leader couldn't have a web browser in their product... | Jan 07 21:50 |
| tessier | KarateTiger: And that they abused their position and violated anti-trust laws... | Jan 07 21:50 |
| KarateTiger | You know, it always depends | Jan 07 21:50 |
| MinceR | yeah, the court's sentence only matters if it supports m$'s position | Jan 07 21:50 |
| MinceR | just ignore it otherwise | Jan 07 21:51 |
| tessier | It isn't that they couldn't have the browser. It is how they went about it. | Jan 07 21:51 |
| MinceR | also, if you get to settle, call it a victory | Jan 07 21:51 |
| tessier | They swore up and down that it coudln't be removed. | Jan 07 21:51 |
| KarateTiger | I'm pretty sure there are convicted rapists where I wouldn't approve of the sentencing | Jan 07 21:51 |
| tessier | Now guess what? They have removed it! | Jan 07 21:51 |
| MinceR | i'm pretty sure m$ is not the only criminal organization whose actions you approve of | Jan 07 21:51 |
| KarateTiger | ugh | Jan 07 21:51 |
| KarateTiger | You're so up your ass with your opinion it's horrible | Jan 07 21:51 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: and I bet the EU has a few new treats in store for MS in the near future. | Jan 07 21:51 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: it's called "fact" | Jan 07 21:52 |
| KarateTiger | lol | Jan 07 21:52 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: learn that word, it's important | Jan 07 21:52 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah IT ARE FACT that microsoft are a CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION, on par with the Cosa Nostra even! | Jan 07 21:52 |
| MinceR | "opinion" supports both sides here. "facts" don't. | Jan 07 21:52 |
| MinceR | important difference. :> | Jan 07 21:52 |
| MinceR | yeah, guess what, an organization whose main operation is crime is a criminal organization | Jan 07 21:53 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: Forget about your views and anyone elses for a minute. Why do you think MS comes under so much fire? What do you think the reason is? | Jan 07 21:53 |
| MinceR | who would have guessed? | Jan 07 21:53 |
| KarateTiger | Because they fucking suck | Jan 07 21:53 |
| tessier | KarateTiger: Microsoft has cost society more than Cosa Nostra I would guess. | Jan 07 21:53 |
| MinceR | _goblin: obviously, people are jealous of the vast riches they've righteously gained, some of which will soon go KarateTiger's way! | Jan 07 21:53 |
| tessier | Cosa Nostra was never worth hundreds of billions afaik | Jan 07 21:53 |
| KarateTiger | And everybody has to put up with their shit | Jan 07 21:53 |
| KarateTiger | So naturally people are pissed | Jan 07 21:53 |
| _goblin | really? | Jan 07 21:54 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: why do we have to put up with their shit? | Jan 07 21:54 |
| _goblin | so why now karatetiger is MS getting more flak than ever before? | Jan 07 21:54 |
| _goblin | Do we see Google come under the same fire? | Jan 07 21:54 |
| KarateTiger | I don't know, people jump on the bandwagon | Jan 07 21:54 |
| _goblin | What about Nintendo? | Jan 07 21:54 |
| _goblin | ah....the bandwagon.... | Jan 07 21:54 |
| tessier | I'm just glad to see the end of Windows on the horizon. Finally. WinCE is dead. MIPS/ARM cpus are coming. Mobile devices are taking over. The PC is going away...slowly. | Jan 07 21:55 |
| _goblin | whats that then? | Jan 07 21:55 |
| KarateTiger | Nintendo hardly has a monopoly | Jan 07 21:55 |
| KarateTiger | Google has | Jan 07 21:55 |
| MinceR | the "bandwagon" that just appeared out of thin air | Jan 07 21:55 |
| MinceR | without reason! | Jan 07 21:55 |
| MinceR | i know if i see a bandwagon, i jump on it! | Jan 07 21:55 |
| _goblin | Er Nintendo does in Japan....i beleive | Jan 07 21:55 |
| KarateTiger | Not without reason | Jan 07 21:55 |
| tessier | KarateTiger: Having a monopoly is not illegal. Acting to maintain it is. | Jan 07 21:55 |
| MinceR | the more the better! | Jan 07 21:55 |
| KarateTiger | There are many reasons not to like M$ and their products | Jan 07 21:55 |
| _goblin | so this bandwagon, why is it against MS? | Jan 07 21:55 |
| MinceR | indeed there are | Jan 07 21:55 |
| tessier | KarateTiger: Google does nothing to prevent me from building a competing service. | Jan 07 21:55 |
| KarateTiger | But you make some kind of ideologic imperative out of it | Jan 07 21:56 |
| _goblin | karatetiger: Why? | Jan 07 21:56 |
| tessier | Anyone can spider the web and make a search engine. | Jan 07 21:56 |
| MinceR | like i said earlier, | Jan 07 21:56 |
| MinceR | 224502 < MinceR> nothing they do is defensible from either an ethical or a technical viewpoint | Jan 07 21:56 |
| _goblin | Karatetiger: What are the reasons to dislike MS and its products? | Jan 07 21:56 |
| KarateTiger | tessier: No...! Google just BUYS you. | Jan 07 21:56 |
| MinceR | hm, and m$ doesn't? | Jan 07 21:56 |
| _goblin | Karatetiger: What are the reasons to dislike MS and its products? | Jan 07 21:56 |
| MinceR | i wonder what happened to yahoo | Jan 07 21:56 |
| KarateTiger | M$ probably sues you first, cause they're assholes | Jan 07 21:57 |
| KarateTiger | idk | Jan 07 21:57 |
| KarateTiger | _goblin: Mundane reasons | Jan 07 21:57 |
| KarateTiger | "shit doesn't work" | Jan 07 21:57 |
| KarateTiger | But that isn't specific to Microsoft | Jan 07 21:57 |
| MinceR | and being forced to use even more of the same shit is not a "mundane" reason? | Jan 07 21:58 |
| _goblin | So KarateTiger: If, in your own words MS products suck and MS are assholes (your words) why do you have a problem with MinceR? Your views are definately black and white. | Jan 07 21:58 |
| KarateTiger | It's not like there's some great alternative | Jan 07 21:58 |
| MinceR | having your favored non-shit go away because m$ made business impossible for them is not a "mundane" reason? | Jan 07 21:58 |
| _goblin | Infact you agree with Mincer | Jan 07 21:58 |
| KarateTiger | It's not just business | Jan 07 21:58 |
| KarateTiger | It's not just Microsoft using their perceived monopoly | Jan 07 21:59 |
| MinceR | having some websites not work well with your favored non-shit browser because m$ foisted IE over people is not a "mundane" reason? | Jan 07 21:59 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: Yes there is, we have found it. Otherwise we would do what you do and just winge about a product we have to use. | Jan 07 21:59 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 21:59 |
| _goblin | Its not just MS.... | Jan 07 21:59 |
| MinceR | "equally evil", right? | Jan 07 21:59 |
| _goblin | how many times have we heard that.... | Jan 07 21:59 |
| _goblin | its not just MS, so its ok.... | Jan 07 21:59 |
| KarateTiger | No, the problem is there is no other product that does what windows does | Jan 07 22:00 |
| KarateTiger | Sure, there are macs, but they're much more expensive | Jan 07 22:00 |
| KarateTiger | Sure, there is linux, but linux has other drawbacks | Jan 07 22:00 |
| MinceR | depends on what is "what windows does" | Jan 07 22:01 |
| _goblin | Officer - "Sir, you are driving under the influence of alcohol" Man - "But other people do it...." Officer - "ok then son on your way....we'll just forget about it" | Jan 07 22:01 |
| MinceR | if it's 'waste resources and open backdoors on the system' then indeed not many OSes do that | Jan 07 22:01 |
| KarateTiger | Windows delivers a more or less complete solution | Jan 07 22:01 |
| MinceR | solution to what? | Jan 07 22:01 |
| MinceR | ballmer's financial problems? | Jan 07 22:01 |
| _goblin | a garbage solution | Jan 07 22:01 |
| KarateTiger | alright | Jan 07 22:01 |
| KarateTiger | I don't know how many of you actually work in companies who use computers | Jan 07 22:02 |
| MinceR | or the 'whatever should i do with this overpowered computer to make it nicely slow' problem? | Jan 07 22:02 |
| MinceR | i think another punchline is coming | Jan 07 22:02 |
| MinceR | so far i've worked for 2 companies where they used GNU/Linux | Jan 07 22:02 |
| MinceR | one of them used it almost exclusively | Jan 07 22:02 |
| KarateTiger | Well | Jan 07 22:02 |
| MinceR | s/used/uses/ | Jan 07 22:02 |
| KarateTiger | and what do they do? | Jan 07 22:03 |
| MinceR | software development | Jan 07 22:03 |
| KarateTiger | aha | Jan 07 22:03 |
| KarateTiger | big suprise | Jan 07 22:03 |
| MinceR | yeah, big surprise: i happen to know what i'm talking about | Jan 07 22:03 |
| KarateTiger | Well I used to work at a press sales company | Jan 07 22:04 |
| KarateTiger | You know what they use | Jan 07 22:04 |
| KarateTiger | DOS | Jan 07 22:04 |
| KarateTiger | DBASEIV | Jan 07 22:05 |
| KarateTiger | Windows 98 | Jan 07 22:05 |
| KarateTiger | Windows XP | Jan 07 22:05 |
| MinceR | you know in a way i much prefer m$-dos to winblows | Jan 07 22:05 |
| MinceR | it does a lot less so it fails at a lot less | Jan 07 22:05 |
| MinceR | and you can replace it with freedos now :> | Jan 07 22:05 |
| KarateTiger | You know what it costs them to have a few lines of code changed in their software that operates their machines | Jan 07 22:05 |
| KarateTiger | thousands of dollars | Jan 07 22:05 |
| MinceR | so? | Jan 07 22:05 |
| KarateTiger | It is still cheaper than switching completely | Jan 07 22:06 |
| KarateTiger | and starting from scratch | Jan 07 22:06 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I can watch "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it", and my own wife give birth, but I can't watch TV Drama surgery. Such a strange wuss I am. #fb | Jan 07 22:06 | |
| KarateTiger | The reason why microsoft dominates the market, is because of the IBM PC | Jan 07 22:06 |
| MinceR | not exactly | Jan 07 22:06 |
| KarateTiger | If anything, you should blame IBM | Jan 07 22:06 |
| MinceR | it's because of their early deals with (neglectful) IBM | Jan 07 22:06 |
| *Ender2070 has quit ("Konversation terminated!") | Jan 07 22:07 | |
| MinceR | i do blame IBM, but they don't deserve as much blame as m$ does | Jan 07 22:07 |
| KarateTiger | and good deals they where | Jan 07 22:07 |
| MinceR | for whom? | Jan 07 22:07 |
| KarateTiger | For Microsoft | Jan 07 22:07 |
| MinceR | exactly | Jan 07 22:07 |
| MinceR | not for anyone else | Jan 07 22:07 |
| KarateTiger | It could have been any company | Jan 07 22:07 |
| schestowitz | Google never stomped on Baidu | Jan 07 22:07 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: Can you please enlighten me to your point. You say MS are arseholes and their products suck...yet you blame a 3rd party and claim MS offers a complete solution....if (as you say MS products are rubbish) then that doesnt sound very complete to me....maybe you can help me here? | Jan 07 22:07 |
| MinceR | it could have been DRI, and we'd already be better off | Jan 07 22:07 |
| schestowitz | ANd Baidu got itself a good 'niche' (China) | Jan 07 22:07 |
| KarateTiger | yes Microsoft does offer a complete solution | Jan 07 22:08 |
| MinceR | i think the key phrase is "Complete Rubbish Solution" | Jan 07 22:08 |
| MinceR | :> | Jan 07 22:08 |
| *schestowitz catches up with old conversations | Jan 07 22:08 | |
| KarateTiger | For a business | Jan 07 22:08 |
| KarateTiger | for a normal business, not a software development company | Jan 07 22:08 |
| _goblin | karatetiger: But you say their products are rubbish....I don't understand, how can that be complete? | Jan 07 22:08 |
| MinceR | btw that company could probably move to dosbox and wine over GNU/Linux and then move the sw to native (and portable) gradually | Jan 07 22:08 |
| KarateTiger | First of all, not all of their products are bad | Jan 07 22:09 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: it's an old line | Jan 07 22:09 |
| MinceR | i wonder what they'll do if those dos pc-s break | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | you didnt say that karatetiger | Jan 07 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Pretend to be anti-Microsoft, but don't | Jan 07 22:09 |
| schestowitz | I see it in COLA and BN a lot | Jan 07 22:09 |
| KarateTiger | and second of all, even though they suck, it's usually the most painless way to stick with it | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | which products ARE rubbish then Karatetiger? | Jan 07 22:09 |
| schestowitz | "Don't get me wrong, Microsoft's products suck, but" | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 22:09 |
| schestowitz | it gives credibility to the messenger | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | I use Linux but...... | Jan 07 22:09 |
| KarateTiger | I never used the word "rubbish" | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | no you said suck | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | thats worse in my book | Jan 07 22:09 |
| _goblin | maybe (as I say) you can explain | Jan 07 22:10 |
| MinceR | maybe he used "suck" affectionately | Jan 07 22:10 |
| MinceR | :> | Jan 07 22:10 |
| _goblin | what about blow? | Jan 07 22:10 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 07 22:10 |
| _goblin | is that worse or better? | Jan 07 22:10 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: their products suck an blow | Jan 07 22:10 |
| schestowitz | *and | Jan 07 22:10 |
| KarateTiger | I'd rather say what doesn't suck | Jan 07 22:10 |
| _goblin | ive never read such a load of tot in my life. | Jan 07 22:10 |
| KarateTiger | Visual Studio | Jan 07 22:10 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 07 22:10 |
| MinceR | visual studio sucks like a black hole | Jan 07 22:10 |
| schestowitz | That's what makes them so orgasmic to KarateTiger :-) | Jan 07 22:11 |
| KarateTiger | Meh... no it doesn't | Jan 07 22:11 |
| _goblin | or blows like a white hole? | Jan 07 22:11 |
| KarateTiger | It's a good product | Jan 07 22:11 |
| MinceR | it's good if you have the case and the cd | Jan 07 22:11 |
| MinceR | it's good to have when your table tilts | Jan 07 22:11 |
| _goblin | theory from RedDwarf - Black hole sucks matter from the universe, white hole spits it back. | Jan 07 22:11 |
| MinceR | or when you need to wedge the office door open | Jan 07 22:11 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: wormhole ends? | Jan 07 22:12 |
| _goblin | i suppose....in a Dave Lister sort of way. | Jan 07 22:12 |
| schestowitz | Maybe the universe if curved | Jan 07 22:12 |
| KarateTiger | alright, so what's the open source alternative? Eclipse? alright, but that didn't even exist when Visual Studio was already good. But of course, a real l33t hacker uses only emacs... | Jan 07 22:12 |
| schestowitz | In fact, maybe new stars are born somewhere when others get sucked into hole | Jan 07 22:12 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: Im asking what MS products suck..... | Jan 07 22:12 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: (your words) | Jan 07 22:12 |
| KarateTiger | Man, they have so many it's hard to list them all | Jan 07 22:13 |
| KarateTiger | also, why do I need to? | Jan 07 22:13 |
| MinceR | [g]vim, gnu make and the command line? | Jan 07 22:13 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: lol | Jan 07 22:13 |
| schestowitz | matter like gas sticking together by gravity | Jan 07 22:13 |
| KarateTiger | And I haven't even used the majority of them | Jan 07 22:13 |
| MinceR | oh, and gdb | Jan 07 22:13 |
| _goblin | KarateTiger: you don't need to, its merely most adults when debating like to justify their opinions. | Jan 07 22:13 |
| MinceR | m$ apologists aren't adults though | Jan 07 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft makes no products | Jan 07 22:13 |
| schestowitz | It writes 0s and 1s | Jan 07 22:13 |
| KarateTiger | lol vim | Jan 07 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Companies like Foxconn make products | Jan 07 22:13 |
| KarateTiger | You develop software with vim? | Jan 07 22:14 |
| KarateTiger | What the fuck? | Jan 07 22:14 |
| MinceR | yeah, just laugh at the best text editor in the world | Jan 07 22:14 |
| MinceR | it did more than the craptastic editor in VS ever will | Jan 07 22:14 |
| KarateTiger | man, STALLMAN laughs at vim | Jan 07 22:14 |
| schestowitz | iMacs? | Jan 07 22:14 |
| schestowitz | GNU iMacs? | Jan 07 22:14 |
| MinceR | there's a choice, he prefers emacs | Jan 07 22:14 |
| MinceR | and it's fine by me | Jan 07 22:14 |
| KarateTiger | lol | Jan 07 22:14 |
| schestowitz | Give it to Asay, to replace MS Office with | Jan 07 22:14 |
| KarateTiger | vim is NOTHING | Jan 07 22:14 |
| schestowitz | He's a Microsoft Office fankid | Jan 07 22:14 |
| MinceR | i think we awakened the ballmer in KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:14 |
| _goblin | hide the chairs | Jan 07 22:15 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: aren't you a bit insecure about vim? | Jan 07 22:15 |
| _goblin | and for gods sake dont let him on stage | Jan 07 22:15 |
| KarateTiger | I really don't know what you people do with you computers | Jan 07 22:15 |
| MinceR | we use them | Jan 07 22:15 |
| KarateTiger | Probably all you do is Computers | Jan 07 22:15 |
| MinceR | while you reboot all day | Jan 07 22:15 |
| KarateTiger | yeah, for doing computer stuff | Jan 07 22:15 |
| MinceR | and install updates, and reinstall winblows when it gets too slow | Jan 07 22:15 |
| *dyfet (n=dyfet@pool-72-75-152-77.atclnj.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 22:15 | |
| _goblin | karatetiger: Evidently more than you, since you still havent said what sucks or why MS are arseholes (your words) | Jan 07 22:15 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: WIndows doesn't reboot | Jan 07 22:15 |
| schestowitz | It takes rests | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | windows update does reboot it | Jan 07 22:16 |
| schestowitz | Like Macs | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | also, it reboots to hide BSODs by default | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | "see, no BSOD!" | Jan 07 22:16 |
| schestowitz | It protects the computer from the user | Jan 07 22:16 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 22:16 | |
| KarateTiger | Have you noticed, I never make fun of you guys for using vi or stuff like that | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | hm | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | 231423 < KarateTiger> lol | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | 231426 < KarateTiger> vim is NOTHING | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | you forget quickly | Jan 07 22:16 |
| KarateTiger | yeah, up UNTIL you said vi | Jan 07 22:16 |
| _goblin | Karatetiger: I assure you, you are not making fun of anyone here. | Jan 07 22:16 |
| KarateTiger | come on vi | Jan 07 22:16 |
| KarateTiger | that is ridiculous man | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | i guess it's kind of required for m$ apologists | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: vim, not vi | Jan 07 22:16 |
| MinceR | if you had a clue, you'd know the difference | Jan 07 22:17 |
| oiaohm | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzg2NA Focus is in X11 is now going back to the old flashy stuff. | Jan 07 22:17 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: [Phoronix] DMX2 Bits For X.Org Server To Move Forward .::. Size~: 16 KB | Jan 07 22:17 |
| KarateTiger | oh yeah vim is the improved version where you can click things | Jan 07 22:17 |
| oiaohm | KarateTiger: I use kdevelop and kate. | Jan 07 22:17 |
| MinceR | yeah, to winblows-addicted retards the only thing that is noticeable is that "you can click things" | Jan 07 22:17 |
| oiaohm | Lot of Linux people don't touch vim or emacs | Jan 07 22:17 |
| MinceR | nevermind that vim can run in a text-only terminal | Jan 07 22:18 |
| _goblin | Yeah I dont.... | Jan 07 22:18 |
| _goblin | I use a Wine and MS notepad combo ;) | Jan 07 22:18 |
| oiaohm | Yet vim and emacs macros do have there place for major code reforms that nothing else would cope with. | Jan 07 22:18 |
| oiaohm | People like to forget that both vim and emacs have been ported to windows. | Jan 07 22:19 |
| MinceR | funny enough, i got to know both emacs and vim on winblows first | Jan 07 22:20 |
| KarateTiger | most gnu programs run on windows anyway | Jan 07 22:20 |
| oiaohm | So any stupid fool attacking Linux or Unix over either. Is indirectly attacking lot of Windows developers. | Jan 07 22:20 |
| KarateTiger | one way or another | Jan 07 22:20 |
| oiaohm | Including 4 that work on the Windows kernel KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:20 |
| KarateTiger | I'm not attacking Linux | Jan 07 22:20 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 22:20 |
| _goblin | but...... | Jan 07 22:21 |
| oiaohm | 4 of the windows kernel lead developers use it. | Jan 07 22:21 |
| MinceR | someone still touches the winblows kernel now? | Jan 07 22:21 |
| KarateTiger | I'm just making fun of vim | Jan 07 22:21 |
| oiaohm | vim has it place KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:21 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: you were recently. | Jan 07 22:21 |
| oiaohm | Code reforming | Jan 07 22:21 |
| KarateTiger | quote | Jan 07 22:21 |
| oiaohm | Now using a tool for what it not good at is insanity. | Jan 07 22:21 |
| MinceR | 231423 < KarateTiger> lol | Jan 07 22:21 |
| MinceR | 231426 < KarateTiger> vim is NOTHING | Jan 07 22:21 |
| MinceR | 231710 < KarateTiger> oh yeah vim is the improved version where you can click things | Jan 07 22:22 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 22:22 |
| MinceR | no more quotes about this. | Jan 07 22:22 |
| *PeterKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 22:22 | |
| KarateTiger | how is that making fun of Linux? | Jan 07 22:22 |
| _goblin | "My name is Doctor Hildegarde Lanstrom and I am quite, quite mad" | Jan 07 22:22 |
| MinceR | it's making fun of vim | Jan 07 22:22 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah I admit I made fun of vim, maybe you should read carefully what I post | Jan 07 22:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the recent lock correction in the windows 7 kernel kinda need vim. | Jan 07 22:23 |
| oiaohm | Or emacs | Jan 07 22:23 |
| MinceR | or a brick of C4 | Jan 07 22:23 |
| MinceR | and fresh *bsd sources | Jan 07 22:23 |
| oiaohm | Visual studio is still not as good at code reforming as either vim or emacs. | Jan 07 22:23 |
| MinceR | ...or just a white flag and a gnu/linux installer | Jan 07 22:23 |
| oiaohm | KarateTiger: the point you miss is what vi and emacs was designed to do. vi was designed to be a lighter tool with most of the power of emacs | Jan 07 22:24 |
| MinceR | emacs is an operating system that lacked a good editor, until viper was written | Jan 07 22:25 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah :whatever | Jan 07 22:25 |
| MinceR | vim is a text editor with more power than any other | Jan 07 22:25 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah, it's a text editor+ | Jan 07 22:25 |
| KarateTiger | Not an IDE | Jan 07 22:25 |
| MinceR | and you can't develop without an IDE? | Jan 07 22:26 |
| MinceR | can't switch windows while developing software? | Jan 07 22:26 |
| KarateTiger | I don't want to, honestly | Jan 07 22:26 |
| oiaohm | vim is highly macroable it can function as a IDE if setup as such KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:26 |
| MinceR | perhaps your window manager isn't up to the task? | Jan 07 22:26 |
| MinceR | the one built into windows is indeed kind of lame | Jan 07 22:26 |
| oiaohm | Of course only a text base IDE. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:26 |
| MinceR | in any case, vim can be given most (or all?) the functionality of an IDE with plugins | Jan 07 22:27 |
| oiaohm | Some tasks like design servers you don't have a graphically any how. | Jan 07 22:27 |
| MinceR | and eclipse can be made to use vim as its editor | Jan 07 22:27 |
| KarateTiger | Alright I admit I haven't used it to that depth | Jan 07 22:27 |
| MinceR | we could tell | Jan 07 22:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Why people pay the Apple premium http://is.gd/5SvGP "Oh, so *this* is how a touchscreen is supposed to work." | Jan 07 22:27 | |
| phIRCe-local | Title: QuirksBlog: A basic usability test on ten phones .::. Size~: 47.18 KB | Jan 07 22:27 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah but i still prefer an IDE | Jan 07 22:27 |
| _goblin | Really? We couldn't tell ;) | Jan 07 22:27 |
| MinceR | m$ apologists like to talk down to unix features and tools they don't even know | Jan 07 22:27 |
| MinceR | if they knew, they wouldn't be m$ apologists | Jan 07 22:28 |
| KarateTiger | I still doubt it does everything that an IDE does | Jan 07 22:28 |
| oiaohm | KarateTiger: I perfer graphical menus. | Jan 07 22:28 |
| oiaohm | KarateTiger: VIM can do everything that is required to be IDE. | Jan 07 22:28 |
| oiaohm | Intergrated Development Enviroment requirements are simple. | Jan 07 22:28 |
| KarateTiger | Can it display two different sizes of fonts? | Jan 07 22:28 |
| _goblin | So to summarize we have KarateTiger who think MS are arseholes, thinks their products suck (although won't say which ones) and then admits to trying to argue about a package he doesn't really know.....now we see why I say Microsoft wouldn't pay for that type of rubbish. | Jan 07 22:29 |
| oiaohm | Font display is not a requirement for a IDE KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:29 |
| KarateTiger | Maybe not | Jan 07 22:29 |
| KarateTiger | For wheels aren't a requirement for a car | Jan 07 22:29 |
| oiaohm | Requirements for a IDE is write code, maintaine make system. Build binary, run binary and process debuging. | Jan 07 22:30 |
| MinceR | hm, if displaying multiple font sizes is what defines an IDE, i have a splendid IDE for you. it's called AbiWord. :> | Jan 07 22:30 |
| oiaohm | That is the requirements of a IDE VIM can do them all KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:30 |
| MinceR | another is called Mozilla Firefox. | Jan 07 22:30 |
| KarateTiger | does it do all the type checking and stuff, while I'm editing? | Jan 07 22:30 |
| MinceR | you retry until you get the keywords right? :> | Jan 07 22:31 |
| KarateTiger | You never make mistakes? | Jan 07 22:31 |
| MinceR | well, i guess syntax highlighting could be construed as such | Jan 07 22:31 |
| MinceR | and there's omnicompletion | Jan 07 22:31 |
| oiaohm | KarateTiger: type checking is not a requirement to be a IDE. But VIM macros support that. | Jan 07 22:31 |
| MinceR | i rarely make mistakes | Jan 07 22:31 |
| MinceR | and the compiler does type checking too :> | Jan 07 22:32 |
| KarateTiger | yeah but then you have to build | Jan 07 22:32 |
| KarateTiger | type checking also means that you don't have to complete what you type | Jan 07 22:33 |
| oiaohm | VIM can check without building KarateTiger it not possiable to syntax highlight without doing a percentage of type checking. | Jan 07 22:33 |
| MinceR | that's what omnicompletion is for | Jan 07 22:33 |
| oiaohm | Even VI can syntax highlight. VIM takes it to a completely new levels. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:34 |
| KarateTiger | Hmm alright | Jan 07 22:34 |
| KarateTiger | Does it render Helvetica? | Jan 07 22:34 |
| oiaohm | What does fonts have to do with it. | Jan 07 22:34 |
| *MinceR initiates the Helvetica Scenario | Jan 07 22:34 | |
| _goblin | .....Ive lost the will to live. | Jan 07 22:34 |
| KarateTiger | I like Helvetica | Jan 07 22:35 |
| _goblin | Im going for a smoke and then to flush my head down the toilet.....KarateTiger might start making sense then. | Jan 07 22:35 |
| oiaohm | Linux Xterms can render text in what ever font you like KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:35 |
| MinceR | The Helvetica Scenario >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY7XH2ulTEU | Jan 07 22:35 |
| oiaohm | Ie text base applications don't need to care about fonts on Unix and Linux based OS's its not there job. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:36 |
| oiaohm | They are not Graphical IDE's. People love to forget text base ides existed. | Jan 07 22:36 |
| oiaohm | Borland and MS first IDE's were text based. | Jan 07 22:37 |
| KarateTiger | yeah I guess | Jan 07 22:38 |
| KarateTiger | Alright you win | Jan 07 22:38 |
| KarateTiger | Clearly linux is superior in every way, and the only thing that stands in its way is the Microsoft monopoly, Mincer | Jan 07 22:39 |
| KarateTiger | and maybe the smugness of its userbase | Jan 07 22:39 |
| MinceR | nope | Jan 07 22:39 |
| KarateTiger | *some of it | Jan 07 22:39 |
| MinceR | the OS-es in whose way stands the smugness of its userbase are the *bsd-s and macos | Jan 07 22:40 |
| MinceR | and maybe winblows | Jan 07 22:40 |
| MinceR | s/its/their/; s/base/bases/ | Jan 07 22:40 |
| KarateTiger | Windows users are humble | Jan 07 22:40 |
| KarateTiger | they know suffering | Jan 07 22:40 |
| MinceR | yes, we can tell | Jan 07 22:40 |
| MinceR | you being the prime example | Jan 07 22:40 |
| KarateTiger | I didn't praise windows | Jan 07 22:40 |
| KarateTiger | But somebody has to defend the fat little kid everyone picks at in school | Jan 07 22:41 |
| MinceR | the fat little kid being ballmer? | Jan 07 22:41 |
| KarateTiger | sure he's fat | Jan 07 22:41 |
| KarateTiger | and maybe he's an asshole | Jan 07 22:41 |
| oiaohm | Really nothing stands in Linux path. | Jan 07 22:41 |
| KarateTiger | But deep in his heart, he only seeks acceptance | Jan 07 22:41 |
| MinceR | not really | Jan 07 22:41 |
| oiaohm | MS does not really have a OS on ARM that works well. | Jan 07 22:41 |
| MinceR | he only seeks profits at all costs -- and if everyone else has to be turned into a slave, that's fine by him | Jan 07 22:42 |
| KarateTiger | and you expect arm to take over the desktop? | Jan 07 22:42 |
| MinceR | m$ does not really have an OS on any platform that works well | Jan 07 22:42 |
| oiaohm | Let alone some of the high power CPU designs that x86 chips look like crap. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:42 |
| MinceR | but "working well" is not a requirement anymore | Jan 07 22:42 |
| oiaohm | Ok working well really do you class windows ce as working ? | Jan 07 22:42 |
| KarateTiger | alright, but all the software people use is on x86 right now | Jan 07 22:42 |
| MinceR | really? | Jan 07 22:42 |
| *PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Jan 07 22:43 | |
| KarateTiger | It's not like x86 is superior technology | Jan 07 22:43 |
| MinceR | what CPU does the software that runs your mobile phone run on? | Jan 07 22:43 |
| oiaohm | Do you use a mobile phone KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:43 |
| MinceR | do you use a router at home? | Jan 07 22:43 |
| oiaohm | If you are you are using software running on arm. | Jan 07 22:43 |
| oiaohm | Most dsl modems are arm. | Jan 07 22:43 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah, but I don't use it to do any real work | Jan 07 22:43 |
| MinceR | define 'real work' | Jan 07 22:43 |
| KarateTiger | my work | Jan 07 22:44 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jan 07 22:44 | |
| oiaohm | Any ideas why phones don't run x86 KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:44 |
| MinceR | does the company you work for use mobile phones? | Jan 07 22:44 |
| KarateTiger | what kind of a stupid example is that, mobile phones? | Jan 07 22:44 |
| MinceR | 234232 < KarateTiger> alright, but all the software people use is on x86 right now | Jan 07 22:44 |
| KarateTiger | I'm talking about the desktop | Jan 07 22:44 |
| MinceR | i see no 'real work' criterion here | Jan 07 22:44 |
| oiaohm | x86 eats power like like plague. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:44 |
| MinceR | i see no mention of the 'desktop' in that sentence either | Jan 07 22:44 |
| MinceR | even though my mobile phone often rests on the desktop :> | Jan 07 22:44 |
| oiaohm | You don't want to see what size a phone would have to be to have decent battery life with a x86 chip inside KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:45 |
| KarateTiger | alright, we've been talking about the dominance of windows all the time, and now you come up with examples of all the places where windows isn't dominant at all | Jan 07 22:45 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/07/actuary_beats_software_engineer/ "Yes, actuaries have beaten software engineers - just - to scoop the title of best job to have in 2010, according to a survey by site Careetcast.com. Coming just behind software engineers were computer systems analysts. Web developers ranked number 15." | Jan 07 22:45 |
| MinceR | microcontrollers are also rarely x86, if ever :> | Jan 07 22:45 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Software engineer rated best job of 2010 (almost) • The Register .::. Size~: 28.37 KB | Jan 07 22:45 |
| MinceR | and they run software | Jan 07 22:45 |
| schestowitz | Good for me, I'm a s/w engineer | Jan 07 22:45 |
| MinceR | (what else would they be running?) | Jan 07 22:45 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: windows is only dominant on the desktop, and i was explicit about that | Jan 07 22:46 |
| KarateTiger | the question was | Jan 07 22:46 |
| KarateTiger | What stands in the way of linux to conquer the desktop market | Jan 07 22:47 |
| KarateTiger | Is it microsofts monopoly? | Jan 07 22:47 |
| KarateTiger | Is that it? | Jan 07 22:47 |
| oiaohm | Nothing | Jan 07 22:47 |
| oiaohm | Other than Linux will to take it. | Jan 07 22:47 |
| MinceR | m$'s anticompetitive measures slow it somewhat | Jan 07 22:47 |
| MinceR | i expect crApple to at least attempt to slow it too | Jan 07 22:47 |
| MinceR | but i doubt they can stop it | Jan 07 22:47 |
| KarateTiger | Linux hasn't gained much share recently | Jan 07 22:47 |
| KarateTiger | How much is it? 1%? | Jan 07 22:48 |
| _goblin | lol | Jan 07 22:48 |
| oiaohm | 2001-2009 most of MS anticompetive crap got taken out. | Jan 07 22:48 |
| schestowitz | Lies. | Jan 07 22:48 |
| MinceR | net applications says it's 1% | Jan 07 22:48 |
| schestowitz | The Microsoft lies again | Jan 07 22:48 |
| MinceR | but they keep lying about this | Jan 07 22:48 |
| _goblin | it depends on which Windows advocate you talk to. | Jan 07 22:48 |
| MinceR | strange how all the m$ apologists happen to take their "data" from there | Jan 07 22:48 |
| oiaohm | Remember I said will to take it KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:48 |
| KarateTiger | I would even call 1% a high figure | Jan 07 22:48 |
| MinceR | it's also strange how ballmer quotes different figures internally | Jan 07 22:48 |
| oiaohm | Lets do some basic money here. | Jan 07 22:48 |
| KarateTiger | Of all the people I know, two use linux as their main OS | Jan 07 22:48 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: you would? based on what? | Jan 07 22:48 |
| oiaohm | How many people who run desktop employ programmers KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:49 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: what country are you in? | Jan 07 22:49 |
| MinceR | Jesusland? | Jan 07 22:49 |
| KarateTiger | Germany | Jan 07 22:49 |
| schestowitz | KarateTiger: USian extrapolate to World | Jan 07 22:49 |
| _goblin | Didn't ballmer run a presentation where the slide claimed Linux was around 6%.....Im sure I wrote an article on that. | Jan 07 22:49 |
| oiaohm | Remember programmers are Linux life blood KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:49 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: how many people do you know? | Jan 07 22:49 |
| _goblin | as many as he can make up | Jan 07 22:49 |
| _goblin | always more than you | Jan 07 22:49 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: or a better question, how many people do you know that use desktop computers but not linux? | Jan 07 22:49 |
| _goblin | or anyone | Jan 07 22:49 |
| MinceR | :) | Jan 07 22:49 |
| KarateTiger | 100 easily | Jan 07 22:50 |
| _goblin | easily | Jan 07 22:50 |
| oiaohm | Linux is going after the embed world first. Ie Like phones. Same reason they when after suppers first KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:50 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/GNU/Linux_Market_Share | Jan 07 22:50 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: GNU/Linux Market Share - Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 19.54 KB | Jan 07 22:50 |
| _goblin | i know 101 - any more offers KarateTiger> | Jan 07 22:50 |
| MinceR | that's great because that's already almost 2% | Jan 07 22:50 |
| MinceR | yet you say that based on these observations you call 1% a high figure | Jan 07 22:50 |
| MinceR | i think you need to learn some maths, KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:50 |
| *gargoyle-grin has quit ("Leaving.") | Jan 07 22:50 | |
| schestowitz | See, this is why having trolls here is unhelpful. | Jan 07 22:50 |
| KarateTiger | I have 114 "friends" on facebook | Jan 07 22:50 |
| _goblin | ive 115 | Jan 07 22:50 |
| schestowitz | We spend time combating Microsoft lies rather than have discussions | Jan 07 22:50 |
| KarateTiger | congratulations | Jan 07 22:51 |
| oiaohm | Basically to give Linux will you need emplyment for Linux people. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:51 |
| schestowitz | It's like a little girl screaming, "do too!!" | Jan 07 22:51 |
| schestowitz | And the kid saying, "she started it!!" | Jan 07 22:51 |
| oiaohm | There is nothing in Linux way of taking the desktop other than the lack of will todo it KarateTiger. | Jan 07 22:51 |
| MinceR | we all know how much facebook "friends" count | Jan 07 22:51 |
| oiaohm | Remember there are many goverments around the world that are now purely running on Linux KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:51 |
| schestowitz | People buy them | Jan 07 22:51 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah but there has to be some incentive | Jan 07 22:51 |
| MinceR | and we all know that everyone knows with certainty what desktop OSes their facebook "friends" use | Jan 07 22:51 |
| schestowitz | "Follow me, I'll follow back" | Jan 07 22:51 |
| KarateTiger | It's not like linux is the sexier platform | Jan 07 22:51 |
| schestowitz | And then people move on the the Next Bgi Site | Jan 07 22:52 |
| _goblin | who said it was? | Jan 07 22:52 |
| schestowitz | And start from scratch | Jan 07 22:52 |
| KarateTiger | Well it has to be | Jan 07 22:52 |
| schestowitz | New DB, new binary list of "friends" | Jan 07 22:52 |
| _goblin | I might be weird but I don't find software sexy. | Jan 07 22:52 |
| MinceR | 235024 < schestowitz> See, this is why having trolls here is unhelpful. | Jan 07 22:52 |
| KarateTiger | People buy into sexy | Jan 07 22:52 |
| MinceR | better ban them, then. | Jan 07 22:52 |
| KarateTiger | Mac is sexy | Jan 07 22:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Tasksel Installation System | Linuxers - a LAMP server the easy way on Ubuntu / Debian http://tinyurl.com/ye7ylgu | Jan 07 22:52 | |
| MinceR | only for sheeple | Jan 07 22:52 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Tasksel Installation System | Linuxers .::. Size~: 29.99 KB | Jan 07 22:52 |
| KarateTiger | maybe | Jan 07 22:52 |
| oiaohm | Web serveys don't really show business or govement usage of machines either KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:52 |
| MinceR | people with some taste don't go for the plain white toilet seat design | Jan 07 22:52 |
| MinceR | molded of cheap white plastic | Jan 07 22:53 |
| _goblin | I dont! | Jan 07 22:53 |
| MinceR | at least not because it's "omg sexy" | Jan 07 22:53 |
| schestowitz | Software is sexy | Jan 07 22:53 |
| KarateTiger | I don't know any company around me that uses linux for their workers | Jan 07 22:53 |
| MinceR | and i don't find spontaneously exploding products sexy either | Jan 07 22:53 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: remember that Paris+Tux pic? | Jan 07 22:53 |
| KarateTiger | They use it for servers but not desktops | Jan 07 22:53 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: i think you're perverted. | Jan 07 22:53 |
| _goblin | schestowitz: LOL Compiling without panties...oh yeah I had forgotten...! | Jan 07 22:53 |
| oiaohm | KarateTiger: sections of IBM and cisco systems are Linux. | Jan 07 22:53 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 07 22:53 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm joined a short time ago | Jan 07 22:54 |
| KarateTiger | and they have lots and lots of legacy software that sometimes doesn't even run on windows 2000 | Jan 07 22:54 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: don't feed him much, it's a Microsoft troll pretending to be neutral | Jan 07 22:54 |
| MinceR | hm, doesn't run on recent windows | Jan 07 22:54 |
| KarateTiger | and worse than the legacy software is the legacy hardware | Jan 07 22:54 |
| oiaohm | So you might be better of on wine on Linux KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:54 |
| MinceR | i'm sure that makes ballmer's gang happy | Jan 07 22:54 |
| MinceR | they'll surely buy vista8 when it comes out, won't they? | Jan 07 22:54 |
| schestowitz | They get it free | Jan 07 22:54 |
| MinceR | so they can find out their sw doesn't run on that either! | Jan 07 22:54 |
| KarateTiger | you can't really control hardware through wine | Jan 07 22:54 |
| oiaohm | Reason why we get a lot of users over a winehq is that old windows applications that don't run on windows 2000 lots of them run in wine. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:54 |
| schestowitz | If they are bribed with it, they'll say good things | Jan 07 22:54 |
| schestowitz | Of course, that's the gifting mentality | Jan 07 22:55 |
| MinceR | "control hardware" is about as vague as it gets | Jan 07 22:55 |
| KarateTiger | No they are reluctant to even switch to vista | Jan 07 22:55 |
| _goblin | "give a man a fish he'll eat for a day, shower him with freebies and he'll shill Microsoft for life" | Jan 07 22:55 |
| MinceR | KarateTiger: what does this tell you about the future of winblows' installed base? | Jan 07 22:55 |
| oiaohm | Other thing lot of old hardware that was good quality has drivers for Linux that windows 2000 does not either KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:55 |
| KarateTiger | like, huge sorting machines? | Jan 07 22:55 |
| KarateTiger | i'm not talking about off-the-shelf hardware | Jan 07 22:56 |
| oiaohm | I know many mail system world wide running on Linux so sorting machines should not be that hard. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:56 |
| oiaohm | Also Linux drivers for items like that can be pure userspace and supported for every. KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:57 |
| oiaohm | every/ever | Jan 07 22:57 |
| KarateTiger | It's not that easy | Jan 07 22:57 |
| KarateTiger | Of course you can develop such a system to run on linux | Jan 07 22:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "patch Tuesday" is like having guards once per month while the rest of the month goes unguarded but still attacked; evildoers work 24 / 7 | Jan 07 22:57 | |
| oiaohm | Really it is cost to have driver built from scratch about 25000 USD. | Jan 07 22:57 |
| KarateTiger | But to reverse engineer it when you even have a running contract | Jan 07 22:57 |
| MinceR | so controlling a "huge sorting machine" is a typical "desktop" task then? | Jan 07 22:57 |
| KarateTiger | lol | Jan 07 22:58 |
| oiaohm | That value includes reversing with the open soruce world KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:58 |
| KarateTiger | that's what they pay for changing a few lines of code | Jan 07 22:58 |
| MinceR | anyway, the hw supplier will need to do something about it considering that even win2k is not supported by m$ | Jan 07 22:58 |
| oiaohm | Any idea why it so cheep KarateTiger | Jan 07 22:58 |
| KarateTiger | small market | Jan 07 22:58 |
| oiaohm | Companies like redhat expect to sell support contracts for the rest of the life of the device. | Jan 07 22:58 |
| KarateTiger | It's not like those machines don't work anymore | Jan 07 22:59 |
| KarateTiger | It's just that they work for decades | Jan 07 22:59 |
| oiaohm | No machine lasts forever. | Jan 07 22:59 |
| KarateTiger | If maintained, it will last as long as its reasonable | Jan 07 23:00 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 23:00 | |
| oiaohm | Also old windows OS's don't install and operate well on new CPU's. | Jan 07 23:00 |
| KarateTiger | It's always a decision between investing tens of thousands for a small change or hundreds of thousands for a new system | Jan 07 23:00 |
| MinceR | "reasonable" is not "infinite" | Jan 07 23:00 |
| oiaohm | So unless that thing is dos based you will run into hell KarateTiger | Jan 07 23:00 |
| KarateTiger | Nobody needs infinity | Jan 07 23:00 |
| MinceR | indeed | Jan 07 23:00 |
| KarateTiger | The sun blows up in five billions years, by then they will have updated | Jan 07 23:01 |
| oiaohm | Ie there is only so much you can repair the machine. | Jan 07 23:01 |
| MinceR | what you need is thinking forward | Jan 07 23:01 |
| MinceR | the sun will only affect the solar system, we can get away from that if we survive that long | Jan 07 23:01 |
| oiaohm | Now is the sorting machine running dos cna go to the freedos to run it software. | Jan 07 23:01 |
| KarateTiger | we can be lucky to make it to the next century | Jan 07 23:01 |
| MinceR | m$ won't make that long though | Jan 07 23:01 |
| oiaohm | CPU in use last a max of about 20 years KarateTiger | Jan 07 23:01 |
| KarateTiger | the machine itself runs does, the clients run windows98 | Jan 07 23:02 |
| oiaohm | Even if you can maintaine the rest of the machine that is going to get it. | Jan 07 23:02 |
| KarateTiger | does=dos | Jan 07 23:02 |
| KarateTiger | In order to change the software you would have to reverse engineer it, and that would be a breach of contract | Jan 07 23:02 |
| oiaohm | dos is fine. That application will go to freedos when hardware has to be replaced. | Jan 07 23:02 |
| oiaohm | Windows 98 is not fine. | Jan 07 23:02 |
| KarateTiger | well | Jan 07 23:03 |
| MinceR | you could run winblows 98 in a vm | Jan 07 23:03 |
| KarateTiger | "it works" | Jan 07 23:03 |
| MinceR | lol | Jan 07 23:03 |
| KarateTiger | yeah but you can't really interface the hardware that way | Jan 07 23:03 |
| MinceR | and how do the clients "interface the hardware"? | Jan 07 23:03 |
| oiaohm | O yes you can from a vm KarateTiger | Jan 07 23:03 |
| oiaohm | Where have you been. | Jan 07 23:03 |
| KarateTiger | it works well enough to not completely throw it out | Jan 07 23:03 |
| MinceR | it won't work at all forever | Jan 07 23:04 |
| oiaohm | there is hardware pass threw. KarateTiger | Jan 07 23:04 |
| KarateTiger | why? | Jan 07 23:04 |
| MinceR | better get comfortable with that fact ;) | Jan 07 23:04 |
| MinceR | because hardware decays | Jan 07 23:04 |
| KarateTiger | Hmm idk | Jan 07 23:04 |
| oiaohm | Now how is reversing breach of contract. | Jan 07 23:04 |
| oiaohm | Do you own the machine out right. | Jan 07 23:04 |
| KarateTiger | Yeah but you also have a contract to the software | Jan 07 23:05 |
| KarateTiger | well anywa | Jan 07 23:05 |
| oiaohm | The contact of reversing of software means cannot decomplie. | Jan 07 23:05 |
| KarateTiger | It's not necessary to talk about this in every breadth | Jan 07 23:05 |
| oiaohm | Does not mean cannot blackbox it. | Jan 07 23:05 |
| KarateTiger | It's just one example | Jan 07 23:05 |
| KarateTiger | Of which there are millions | Jan 07 23:05 |
| oiaohm | Every one of these examples Linux is replacing KarateTiger | Jan 07 23:05 |
| KarateTiger | Where it is more economical to stick with the old crap until it completely falls apart | Jan 07 23:06 |
| oiaohm | And Linux allows you to stay current and stick to old crap longer. | Jan 07 23:06 |
| KarateTiger | yeah, maybe at a rate of 1% per year | Jan 07 23:06 |
| oiaohm | As long as what you get is linux compadible in the first place. | Jan 07 23:06 |
| KarateTiger | well idk maintaining custom systems is a pita whether you use linux or not | Jan 07 23:07 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Jan 07 23:07 |
| oiaohm | Linux supports a thing calls a stable syscall system that never changes. That can do drivers. | Jan 07 23:07 |
| KarateTiger | yeah but things DO change | Jan 07 23:08 |
| oiaohm | So writen once run for ever. KarateTiger | Jan 07 23:08 |
| KarateTiger | things need to be adjusted | Jan 07 23:08 |
| oiaohm | Since 1991 the syscall system has not changed a call operation once. | Jan 07 23:08 |
| oiaohm | What you call rock solid stable. | Jan 07 23:08 |
| KarateTiger | yeah, well I gotta go now | Jan 07 23:08 |
| KarateTiger | all hail open systems ;) | Jan 07 23:09 |
| *KarateTiger has quit ("Leaving") | Jan 07 23:09 | |
| MinceR | weird. | Jan 07 23:09 |
| oiaohm | Normal MS arguements. | Jan 07 23:09 |
| oiaohm | They always walk themselves into a wall against people who truly know Linux. | Jan 07 23:10 |
| oiaohm | I did not get to use my best. 1% per year is more than fast enough with failures and everything else to see non Linux hardware disappear in 20 years. | Jan 07 23:13 |
| *KarateTiger (n=Rocket@e179019109.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 23:17 | |
| rnb | people from germany come here to argue in support of microsoft? | Jan 07 23:18 |
| MinceR | apparently | Jan 07 23:18 |
| rnb | thats a strange feature of this channel i didnt expect | Jan 07 23:18 |
| rnb | i use vim for all my programming | Jan 07 23:19 |
| rnb | properly configured, vim does everything an IDE does | Jan 07 23:19 |
| *KarateTiger has quit (Client Quit) | Jan 07 23:21 | |
| oiaohm | My personal taste is not vim. But if someone likes it that is there business. | Jan 07 23:22 |
| schestowitz | rnb: Novell and Microsoft | Jan 07 23:23 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Microsoft has an ecosystem/shills there too, as they came from that same ISP quite a lot (in BN comments too) | Jan 07 23:23 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/07/eurostar_failure_2/ | Jan 07 23:23 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Eurostar goes tits up again • The Register .::. Size~: 26.82 KB | Jan 07 23:23 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I use Kate. Love her! | Jan 07 23:24 |
| schestowitz | She does tabs and all... stable but with a long undo stack can take up a quarter of a gig. | Jan 07 23:24 |
| MinceR | that makes me think of something different from what was probably intended. | Jan 07 23:24 |
| MinceR | Kate can be made to behave a bit like Vim | Jan 07 23:24 |
| schestowitz | I partly joke | Jan 07 23:24 |
| MinceR | sadly, the :s command doesn't work on a visual range | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | But many kate users have fun with the name | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: yes, vim mode | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | That come in kde 4.4 IIRC | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | They do it properly | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | With shortcuts and aqll | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | *all | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | Also, in-line spellchecker has been merged into kate | Jan 07 23:25 |
| MinceR | :) | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | Give it a try when it's out | Jan 07 23:25 |
| schestowitz | it's a powerful editor with plugins and stuff. And it used Oxygen/other qt themes | Jan 07 23:26 |
| oiaohm | I wish Kdevelop 4 development could speed up. | Jan 07 23:26 |
| schestowitz | Thunderbird visually matches Oxygen for me, with a skin | Jan 07 23:26 |
| oiaohm | Its a nice tool other than some of the missing Kdevelop 3 features | Jan 07 23:26 |
| MinceR | http://failblog.org/2010/01/06/field-trip-fail/ | Jan 07 23:28 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: I bet that kid is popular in class « FAIL Blog: Epic Fail Pictures and Videos of Owned, Pwnd and Fail Moments .::. Size~: 2275.91 KB | Jan 07 23:28 |
| schestowitz | http://rawstory.com/2010/01/obamas-top-counterterror-official-skiing-plane-bomb-attack/ | Jan 07 23:28 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Obamas top counterterror official kept skiing after Christmas bomb attempt | Raw Story .::. Size~: 36.97 KB | Jan 07 23:28 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: how old are the parents? 8? | Jan 07 23:30 |
| MinceR | mentally, yes | Jan 07 23:30 |
| oiaohm | http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2010/01/07/january_2010_web_server_survey.html Interesting. qq.com has disapeared from there numbers. | Jan 07 23:30 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: January 2010 Web Server Survey - Netcraft .::. Size~: 19.09 KB | Jan 07 23:30 |
| MinceR | which is quite common nowadays | Jan 07 23:30 |
| oiaohm | Next question how many other servers are out there that Netcraft cannot see. | Jan 07 23:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: Netcraft Confirms QQ Is Dying? :> | Jan 07 23:30 |
| oiaohm | No MinceR | Jan 07 23:31 |
| oiaohm | Netcraft cannot tell. If it being blocked or not. | Jan 07 23:31 |
| MinceR | (referring, of course, to old /. copypasta "Netcraft Confirms BSD Is Dying") | Jan 07 23:31 |
| schestowitz | http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010725235_statebudget07m.html | Jan 07 23:32 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Local News | Treasurer warns state will go broke if lawmakers don't act | Seattle Times Newspaper .::. Size~: 62.62 KB | Jan 07 23:32 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft's home state | Jan 07 23:32 |
| *_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jan 07 23:32 | |
| MinceR | maybe m$ will buy the state once it's cheap enough | Jan 07 23:32 |
| MinceR | hostile takeover | Jan 07 23:32 |
| MinceR | then they can rename it to something they like more, such as "Windowsland" or "Microsoftland" | Jan 07 23:33 |
| MinceR | and connect One Microsoft Way to a state highway and rename the highway to One Microsoft Way | Jan 07 23:33 |
| MinceR | oops | Jan 07 23:33 |
| MinceR | s/One //g | Jan 07 23:33 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: they can't | Jan 07 23:34 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft has no money, either | Jan 07 23:34 |
| schestowitz | It has imaginary assets | Jan 07 23:34 |
| MinceR | but the stock exchange doesn't know that | Jan 07 23:34 |
| schestowitz | On which its loans are based/floating upon | Jan 07 23:34 |
| MinceR | neither does the government of Jesusland, apparently | Jan 07 23:34 |
| MinceR | as long as they can make others believe they have money, they can also spend it | Jan 07 23:34 |
| MinceR | the wonders of modern economy | Jan 07 23:34 |
| schestowitz | Moody's, the corrupt firm already busted by Dennis Kucinich, gave Microsoft debt a recommendation (AA IIRC) | Jan 07 23:34 |
| schestowitz | I had a discussion about this today | Jan 07 23:35 |
| schestowitz | A friend of mine who's a journalist | Jan 07 23:35 |
| schestowitz | I told him at the gym that the press abstains from talking about the doom of the Western economy | Jan 07 23:35 |
| schestowitz | He eventually defended this by insisting that the press talks about the East as rising power | Jan 07 23:36 |
| schestowitz | Which is utterly flase | Jan 07 23:36 |
| schestowitz | The press eemphasises this | Jan 07 23:36 |
| schestowitz | Then it turned to a chat about whether the press should report what peopel want (horoscopes and dross) or what they need to know | Jan 07 23:36 |
| schestowitz | He didn't give up easily | Jan 07 23:36 |
| schestowitz | He did acknowledge that business drives what's reported | Jan 07 23:36 |
| MinceR | why does the western press want to make it seem as if the east was a rising power? | Jan 07 23:36 |
| schestowitz | It started when he was telling me some 'junk' news about Khadaffi's son and Beyonce | Jan 07 23:37 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: no, opposite | Jan 07 23:37 |
| schestowitz | They spin | Jan 07 23:37 |
| schestowitz | They tell people mostly what they want to hear to: | Jan 07 23:37 |
| schestowitz | 1) keep/increase # of subs | Jan 07 23:38 |
| schestowitz | 2) make their funders happy (Big Business) | Jan 07 23:38 |
| schestowitz | He said something like, "do you not think panic would harm the economy?" | Jan 07 23:38 |
| oiaohm | Does not matter. | Jan 07 23:38 |
| schestowitz | And I'm like, "yes, but not as much as public looting (bailouts)" | Jan 07 23:38 |
| oiaohm | Arm is the company that wants MS dead. | Jan 07 23:38 |
| oiaohm | These days. | Jan 07 23:38 |
| schestowitz | As some say, "you don't tell the cancer patient to take it easy and ignore" | Jan 07 23:38 |
| oiaohm | For the same reason Sun wanted MS dead. | Jan 07 23:39 |
| schestowitz | You need to cure this disease now, not later | Jan 07 23:39 |
| oiaohm | MS refusal to support there chips. | Jan 07 23:39 |
| schestowitz | The deficit here is hufe | Jan 07 23:39 |
| schestowitz | *huge | Jan 07 23:39 |
| MinceR | many companies want m$ dead, don't they? | Jan 07 23:39 |
| schestowitz | About $3,000,000,000,000 in debt | Jan 07 23:39 |
| oiaohm | Yep MinceR | Jan 07 23:39 |
| MinceR | rare is the company in IT that m$ hasn't harmed. | Jan 07 23:39 |
| MinceR | even their lapdog novell. | Jan 07 23:39 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jan 07 23:39 |
| schestowitz | Novell is small now | Jan 07 23:39 |
| oiaohm | Harm will always return to you 7 fold. | Jan 07 23:40 |
| schestowitz | Hardly any news about Novell | Jan 07 23:40 |
| schestowitz | I reckon Brainshare 20TEN will flop | Jan 07 23:40 |
| oiaohm | The question is not if but when. | Jan 07 23:40 |
| MinceR | that only applies to wiccans, doesn't it? :> | Jan 07 23:40 |
| oiaohm | Nop MinceR | Jan 07 23:40 |
| oiaohm | Wiccan believe doing good deeds will also return to you 7 fold. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| MinceR | also. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| oiaohm | Real world does not follow that. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| MinceR | oh. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| oiaohm | People forget good deeds. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| oiaohm | But remember bad deeds done. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| oiaohm | And when they remember bad deeds they tell there friends so increasing harm. | Jan 07 23:41 |
| oiaohm | So its at least 7 fold return of harm. | Jan 07 23:42 |
| oiaohm | And that is if you have hurt a person without many friends and there friends don't have many friends. | Jan 07 23:42 |
| oiaohm | my 7 fold is not based on wiccan following but on human nature MinceR | Jan 07 23:43 |
| MinceR | ic | Jan 07 23:43 |
| oiaohm | Remember ibm did a lot of evil and when it returned 7 fold on them they almost ceast to exist. | Jan 07 23:44 |
| oiaohm | MS has done way more evil than IBM had. So I would really hate to be MS. | Jan 07 23:45 |
| *Ender2070 (n=Ender207@bas1-toronto12-1167878414.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Jan 07 23:47 | |
| oiaohm | http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-379690.html Lets hide setting from users then when users find out make out is a developer feature. | Jan 07 23:58 |
| phIRCe-local | Title: Many 'GodModes' to be found in Windows 7 | Tech News on ZDNet .::. Size~: 78 KB | Jan 07 23:58 |
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