10.07.08
Gemini version available ♊︎Is YouTube’s “NovellVideo” a Novell AstroTurfer?
[Update: “NovellVideo” turns out to be a Novell employee, Ross Brunson. So it’s not AstroTurfing, it’s just shameless use of YouTube for marketing purposes.]
Several months ago we wrote about Microsoft's trashing of YouTube with OOXML 'propaganda', among other things. It’s probably not something the company would even deny. In fact, being already seen as somewhat of a ‘norm’, companies no longer feel guilty about it.
Novell’s own ‘boosting’ is something that we wrote about and accompanies by examples in [1, 2]; Microsoft is no exception.
“We will start pointing this out in the future, whenever potential marketing people of Novell appear to be littering YouTube a little more.”This post intends to set the record straight on one particular YouTube ‘user’ which goes under the name “NovellVideo”. It’s uploading Novell commercials at a rapid pace, the latest example being this one from yesterday.
What to make of it all? It’s an open question, but extensive circumstantial evidence is there on YouTube. We will start pointing this out in the future, whenever potential marketing people of Novell appear to be littering YouTube a little more.
A couple of days ago, Bruce Perens had this to say about his experiences with viral marketing at H-P. He cites YouTube as an example:
[J]ust about every PR firm offers to help “manage the perception of your company in online communities” these days. What do you think that means? Astroturfing Slashdot, Youtube, etc. In my various manangement positions it’s been offered to me. Indeed, some of the companies offer to create negative publicity for your competition that way – HP had a publicity firm for its Linux activities that told us it would do that when we wanted. I never asked them to do so and hope nobody else did either.
This stuff is just standard these days. You’ve got to expect it.
Perens also had this to say about Microsoft and Open Source, which as we last showed yesterday, is a scam.
I think mostly they’d like to dilute “Open Source” to mean any code with source code. This is important to them because it’s the rights connected to Open Source that scare Microsoft (and others). If you can call it Open Source when there isn’t even the right to compile the code, or to use the information you get from reading it, customers don’t have a reason to ask for it any longer.
Their publicity agencies are here on Slashdot pumping that angle every day.
This is why, despite us being Slahdotted a couple of days ago (thanks for the mention, Rob Malda and folks), we discourage reading of that site, which got manipulated by companies into an oblivion [1, 2, 3]. Without a verified identity of people (who they are and who they work for), there’s too much room for ‘manufactured’ debates, e.g. first provocative comment for propaganda to be latched onto it as followups. it edges out genuine comments further down. We also became aware of organised trolling in the site and something called “karma farming”. There’s some ugly stuff there for sure.
Speaking of AstroTurfing, a couple of weeks ago we mentioned VoicesforInnovation], which is one among many Microsoft lobbying arms. Groklaw found out that “Microsoft owns VoicesforInnovation domain,” adding: “Earlier, we had a News Picks item on VoicesforInnovation.org, a lobbying organization pushing what seemed to me to be a Microsoft agenda in Europe. Sean Daly noticed that the domain name belongs to guess who? — Microsoft. Go to betterwhois.com and search for yourself. Here’s what you will find:
Domain ID:D117910110-LROR Domain Name:VOICESFORINNOVATION.ORG Created On:06-Mar-2006 23:49:37 UTC Last Updated On:14-Nov-2007 00:21:24 UTC Expiration Date:06-Mar-2009 23:49:37 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR) Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED Registrant ID:tukvECSsFENx3T2h Registrant Name:Microsoft Corporation Registrant Organization:Microsoft Corporation
The anti-VMWare Web site was a very recent and similar example. Novell subscribes to such tactics too. █
Diversionary tactics, holding action, and retreats may each seem contrary to the achievement of the overall objective when considered solely in their own terms, but taken in light of the overall conflict, may contribute to overall success. In the Chinese Civil War that followed World War II, Mao Tse Tung’s Army ran away from every battle, until they won the war. They knew that overall victory, not local victory, was the objective.
Thus it is imperative to measure each action in accordance with its contribution to overall, not just local, victory.
Victory
“A computer on every desk and in every home, running Microsoft software.” This is the mission statement of Microsoft itself; it is the definition of the conditions under which Microsoft itself can declare overall victory.
–Microsoft, internal document [PDF]
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AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 7:44 am
How is it astroturfing if their user profile says that it’s Novell?
Dan O'Brian said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:07 am
Roy is just desperate to find examples of Novell “astroturfing” because of how often it is pointed out that his own friends astroturf with 14+ accounts against Novell and Microsoft on various news forums.
You’ll notice that every one of Roy’s accusations about Novell “astroturfing” has been Novell employees using their own names on a forum (god forbid they be allowed to voice their opinions).
Funnily enough, when Roy’s friends astroturf using their 14+ accounts, they do not use their real names and even try to make out like each account is a different person when in reality they are all the same person.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:24 am
What do I have to do with “twitter” and why do you associate me with “twitter”? I loathe people who have multiple accounts. It’s cheating.,
You, Dan O’Brian, are still here to troll (or to AstroTurf) in this Web site for your own gain. Have you no shame? You refused repeatedly to say which company you work for and you also stated/insinuated on several occasions that you are here defend your work.
AlexH, I don’t think you understand what AstroTurfing is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing
“Astroturfing in American English is a neologism for formal public relations campaigns in politics and advertising which seek to create the impression of being spontaneous “grassroots” behavior, hence the reference to the artificial grass, AstroTurf.”
Where does the account in YouTube say that it’s Novell? FWIW, I don’t even know if it’s Novell, so I did not make a certain accusation.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:28 am
@Roy:
I’m fully aware of what ‘astroturf’ means: that’s why I’m questioning your use of the term. It’s not a synonym for “marketing”: an astroturf campaign means getting people to pretend that they are regular customers talking good about something in order to boost the product’s profile.
The account says “Novell” when you click on the user info. Whether it actually is Novell or not doesn’t matter, because the two possibilities are:
a. it’s Novell. Given they’re not pretending to be anyone else, this is plainly not astroturfing;
b. it’s not Novell. It doesn’t matter who’s pretending, it’s not Novell doing it therefore again it’s not astroturfing.
It would only be astroturfing if Novell were paying/otherwise encouraging people to do things on their behalf while trying to hide the fact.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:33 am
I see an account with 31 Novell adverts posted and no disclosure saying that it’s a Novell employee. It’s enough to fool many people, IMHO.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:36 am
Username: “NovellVideo”, Name: “Novell”, Website: “http://www.novell.com/”
What exactly would people be fooled into believing?! Absolute worst, they’re being fooled that it’s Novell when it could be some ordinary Joe.
I very much doubt anyone is going to be fooled into thinking this is some kind of independent Novell fan putting their commercials up there…
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:45 am
That’s your assessment, but seeing just the pages with the videos I witness some chap with a goatee, who seems terribly enthusiastic about Novell.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:46 am
AlexH, do you also defend Microsoft doing this?
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:47 am
I should add that AstroTurfing was made a crime in the EU only very recently, but it’s still legal in the States where such things are seen as just an “ethical” (not legal) issue.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 8:57 am
@Roy: I’m just not sure what there is to defend here.
Being a corporation isn’t a crime, and neither is posting videos to YouTube. You claim that people might be confused somehow, but I really don’t see how people would think that this isn’t Novell.
I’m sure if you were that worried about people being confused, you have left them a note to ask them to put an official statement on their account or something? Yes?
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:01 am
BTW, your “chap with a goatee” is Senior Linux Solutions Specialist at Novell/SUSE Inc. Ross Brunson.
Was that not something you found in your undoubtedly extensive research?
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:02 am
Call this a grey area if you like. That’s why I put a question mark in the title.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:03 am
Ah, thanks for identifying the person. So this confirms that a Novell employee posts those videos.
Xanadu said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:22 am
“Funnily enough, when Roy’s friends astroturf using their 14+”
Holy guilt by association, hey Dan, you only have a very few fallacies left to use. Is Novell’s situation so sorry that they need such a loser to defend them?
Dan O'Brian said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:27 am
Roy: it should have been obvious, there was no effort to hide that fact at all.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:28 am
It’s not even true by the way. They attempt to connect and associate me with people whom I hardly know and also tell half stories to attack the messenger.
Hey, Dan. ‘People’ on the Web said that I changed sex, that I molest children and that I have an arrest record. Maybe you can use *that* libel and some people will actually believe that it’s true. Carry on seeding the Web with lies, just as enemies of Free software want. They can’t find the messages (FOSS) with lies, so they manufacture lies against those who advocate it. You’re at danger of becoming part of these “enemies”.
Dan O'Brian said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:31 am
Xanadu, I see another twitter sockpuppet. Having fun creating new names to troll under I see.
Roy: Have I ever repeated those obviously fictitious lies? No, I have not, nor will I ever bother to.
You yourself manufacture lies all the time Roy, so you are already one of the people you hate so much. Just because you repeat them more often than the people who slander you doesn’t make what you say any more truthful than what they say (which is, to say, not true at all).
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:31 am
There was at the start (months ago). There are many Dan O’Brians out there.
Please stick to the topic (talk about events and ideas, not people). Your first comment here was an unsubstantiated and insulting personal attack. And you wonder why you’re accused of trolling…?
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:34 am
@Dan O’Brian:
Like that recent Intel bug in Linux? I updated the title after more details had emerged and the content still stands. I reported fast, that’s all. You could find inaccuracies in /any/ Web site (even the ‘almighty’ BBC has loads), but you choose to attack *this* Web site. Is it because its message is inconvenient to you?
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:40 am
No update to this story yet though
Dan O'Brian said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:40 am
Because you choose to repeat the same slander over and over with your link-backs as “proof” that the slander is true.
And that intel bug is not the first, nor the only example. How about that netbooks with any Linux installed (Ubuntu included) have had high return rates?
How about your insistence that Mono is not Free Software, even when, byt he FSF’s own definition, it is?
How about the lie that parts of core GNOME are being replaced by Mono components?
How about the slander you spread about the Mono developer who was doing some performance improvements to Mono and did some comparisons to Java? You claimed he falsified his findings, yet anyone who runs the tests he did finds the same results.
Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. This site is full of them, all coming from you.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:49 am
@Alex: yes, there was an update to confirm it was a kernel issue, i.e. affecting not just SUSE.
Dan O'Brian said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:51 am
The problem, Roy, is that you don’t actually update the story until after the damage is done.
Learn to research BEFORE publishing, that is what a responsible person does.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:57 am
Articles are a publication, blogs are a research/investigation process which is why it’s always open to comments, including corrections.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:59 am
@Roy: when I said “this story” I was referring to, y’know – the one we’re commenting on right now, where you accuse Novell of astroturfing.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:02 am
I did not accuse; I asked a question. FWIW, I’ve spotted other Novell employees commenting in Web sites without any disclosure.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:19 am
Well, whether or not you think you’re making an accusation, the evidence is now clear but you haven’t updated the article to clear them of any implication.
I’m sure Novell employees do comment on other web sites. That doesn’t count as astroturfing either, unless you want to strip their employees of any right of free expression.
Again, astroturfing is an organised attempt at a corporate level to promote a business. Employees saying positive things about their employer is not exactly a shock nor is it astroturfing; employees are a relatively self-selecting bunch after all.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:21 am
I’ll add a clarification at the top.
twitter said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:34 am
Alex, your whining is the purest hypocrisy. I’m all about showing up M$ Astroturfing at Slashdot. You here to defend that by smearing me. Roy does not know who you are or how many accounts you have here. You are what you accuse me of being and you know that I am not.
twitter said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:38 am
I am not Xanadu but like what he says.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:45 am
I’ve seen how over the years people tried to discredit Groklaw by saying it’s an IBM proxy.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:55 am
@twitter:
First, Roy knows exactly who I am, as does any other reader of this website. It’s not secret knowledge.
Second, I haven’t accused you of anything, because I don’t argue against people, I argue against false positions.
Third, kindly withdraw your accusations that I somehow “smeared” you. I don’t think I’ve even addressed a comment to you before the last one.
Mark Anderson said,
October 7, 2008 at 11:49 am
@Roy: Your update doesn’t make it clear that the Novell employee is not astroturfing. I suggest you correct that.
AlexH said,
October 7, 2008 at 12:20 pm
@Mark: good luck with that
Things usually get surprisingly factual and concise at this point.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Mark, I’ve clarified further.
BuckleDown said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:45 pm
@Xanadu: This *entire website* is built on the concept of guilt by association, so it’s extremely amusing that you’d use that as a cop-out.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Care to provide examples, please? Be specific.
BuckleDown said,
October 7, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Examples of… what? How you pummel Novell for their association with Microsoft? How you harp on anyone and anything that has anything remotely to do with Microsoft?
May I remind you of your public record on Novell before they started their association with Microsoft?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=144488&cid=12107575
BTW, for anyone who’s wondering what’s up with this ‘twitter’ guy from Slashdot, this is required (and entertaining) reading:
http://slashdot.org/~willyhill/journal/205317
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I stand by what I wrote at the time. Novell chose a different route later.
michael said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I have to agree, Xanadu’s “guilt by association” attack is a bit hypocritical.
BuckleDown said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:53 pm
> I stand by what I wrote at the time. Novell chose a different route later.
OK. Did I provide enough of an example about the association thing? You didn’t actually say anything about that.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 7, 2008 at 10:56 pm
It’s action, not association. Novell signed a patent deal which it intended to use to its advantage.It’s Novell that approached Microsoft to sign this deal.
…among other things like OOXML agreements, privileged hypervisor access, Mono, etc.
BuckleDown said,
October 7, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Oh this is interesting. I guess I didn’t look closer before.
@twitter: Can you explain how you are “Showing up M$ astroturfing” in these threads, which are alleged to be posted with multiple accounts all controlled by you:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=616313&cid=24217943
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=986049&cid=25269343
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=619653&cid=24257589
Looks to me like something very different is going on there.
Dan O'Brian said,
October 8, 2008 at 7:05 am
Good to see that Roy is going to start censoring me: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/10/07/irc-log-07102008/#tOct%2007%2013:20:46
He knows that unless he starts deleting my comments, his position is hurt because I keep proving that he’s a hypocrite and I’m one of the people that keep disproving his lies. Next he’ll start deleting AlexH’s comments.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 8, 2008 at 7:25 am
Not “going to”. You’re quoting it out of context and that’s dishonest.
“ We never deleted comments (other than spam).”
Later on, IIRC (maybe last night or the day before), I made it clear and got reaffirmations for refusing to ever delete comments as that would reduce our credibility.
I have no intentions to change this ‘policy’ and Shane agrees. Not even comments with obscenities are deleted.
Dan O'Brian said,
October 8, 2008 at 7:30 am
Well, I’m glad you decided that /later/, but the only discussion I saw of it was the snippet I pasted.
Yes, you also said “I’ve never deleted comments before” (emphasis mine), but even put in context with the quote I pasted above, suggests that you were going to start and indeed that’s exactly what the other comment insinuates on its own. If that is not what you meant, then why did you say it?
Dan O'Brian said,
October 8, 2008 at 7:32 am
Since the quote you added doesn’t actually change the meaning of the quote I posted, it’s not taken out of context and therefor is not dishonest.
Ian said,
October 8, 2008 at 7:37 am
[i]Good to see that Roy is going to start censoring me:[/i]
That would be pretty lame. I’ve defended this website’s existence in the past even though I don’t agree with with much of the message and don’t understand how a Novell boycott site has far more to do with ooxml and microsoft than Novell. However, I feel if comments or implications are levied at companies or individuals, whoever they may be, then those comments should and can be scrutinized. There’s a difference, in my mind, between someone scrutinizing this website and someone just trolling the website. Dan and AlexH at least bring constructive arguments to the table. To squash posts like that would do nothing to legitimize this site.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 8, 2008 at 7:48 am
There was no intention to censor. We haven’t done it since the start (2 years ago) and it was /far/ worse about a year ago. I just didn’t feed the trolls by replying to them (and Dan O’Brian is not a “troll”… I’m talking about very abusive messages here and I can provide examples).
Dan O'Brian said,
October 8, 2008 at 8:14 am
Roy: then I was confused because you linked to my post in particular. If I was wrong, I apologize.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 8, 2008 at 8:26 am
No, it’s comments like that I had in mind. People urged me to delete them, but I never did.
Dan O'Brian said,
October 9, 2008 at 9:16 am
So, it is true. Xanadu is aka twitter. Just another sockpuppet as suspected.
I have to commend Roy for being against this sockpuppetry though. Thanks Roy.
Dan O'Brian said,
October 9, 2008 at 9:16 am
gah, that pasted badly.
AlexH said,
October 9, 2008 at 9:22 am
I was going to write the same under today’s IRC logs; Roy deserves credit for at least asking that the puppet show stop.
FWIW, I’m a long time slashdot poster (as in, I have a low uid, but I don’t visit there much), and I think you have to accept that it’s not read just by free software fans. It’s a tech blog, and has a large number of Microsoft fans too, which reflects in the moderation. As do the Mac fanboys.
landofbind said,
October 9, 2008 at 12:34 pm
To clarify, so that no one thinks this is true, Roy Schestowitz has deleted several posts of mine!
And if by “abusive messages” he is referring to comments showing his lying, abusive, fearmogering articles. And his inability to provide answers when confronted with difficult questions.
The only proofs that he provides are “comments” by friends and his own articles.
Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.
Roy Schestowitz said,
October 9, 2008 at 2:35 pm
No comments were deleted.
Comments with vile insults were queued to appear later, sometimes week after they were posted. Here you are admitting that you are ‘eet’, the only person whose messages were flagged (not deleted).
Ross said,
November 28, 2008 at 10:55 am
Well, that was an interesting read, both the immensely paranoid original posting and all the lively commentary.
For the record, NovellVideo was created and is being populated for one thing, and one thing only: To have a semi-official place where all the fun and interesting videos that have come out of Novell over the years can be found and consumed.
Anyone attempting to find more than that can have fun, but there are no ulterior motives, just good fun and a thank-you nod to all our customers looking for videos they have seen at Brainshare or other Novell events past.
Ross
+++ ATH0