Comments

• Josh Bell

  2008-12-19 01:34:16

  Like this wouldn't have been covered othewise. Why is it everytime Novell has an announcement It's pushed onto these sites? Don't other open source vendors have community managers and push things onto these same sites?

• seth

  2008-12-19 07:44:13

  What's next? Mark Shuttleworth pushes Ubuntu 9.04 release into Linux newssites? Kernel-developers push Kernel 2.6.xx release into Linux newssites?

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-19 08:21:06

  Mark Shuttleworth pushes Ubuntu 9.04 release into Linux newssites?

  
  
  I believe that's Jono Bacon's job. (Yeah, job, they pay someone! Talk about shilling...)

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 09:11:56

  Is there a distro which has full-time employees who don't make the announcements?! :D

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-19 09:18:40

  Slackware!

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 09:20:42

  I didn't talk about other distros.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 09:28:56

  @Roy: of course you didn't, you want to make it seem like OpenSUSE is doing something different to everyone else and somehow "wrong".

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 09:34:16

  It would be a different story if that was SLED. Most distros don't have this division between commercial and community.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 09:36:03

  So we can expect the same criticism of Fedora... "great"...

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 09:38:44

  Provide evidence.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 09:40:06

  What? Evidence that Red Hat have a commercial and community distro?
  
  I'm sure you know where Google is, Roy.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 09:45:44

  No, evidence that Red Hat employees are pimping Fedora in the press. I'd like to see it.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 09:49:48

  Fedora 10 launch article here, another here, etc. etc.
  
  Again, Google is that way ->

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 09:51:42

  This does not show me a Red Hat employee prodding reporters.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-19 09:52:34

  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields
  
  "I work for Red Hat"
  
  ZOMG SHILLING!

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 09:53:04

  You asked for "Red Hat employee pimping Fedora". Looks like it to me.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 09:55:29

  No, please try to show me Red Hat employees pushing Fedora news into the press.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:00:49

  Press release here Roy :)

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:03:08

  Not press release, a prod. Show me Red Hat employees pressuring editors to cover Fedora.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:08:37

  Er, no. Nobody - OpenSUSE included - has "pressured" anyone. I'm not going to accuse anyone of doing that without actual evidence, Roy.
  
  And no. Submitting a story to be posted is not "pressure".
  
  Another false accusation with no basis....

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:13:16

  It's prodding.

• Tobias

  2008-12-19 10:13:51

  NEWS! NEWS! NEWS!
  
  "Democrat party pressures press into announcing Barack Obama's election victory!"

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:16:22

  @Roy: how on earth is issuing a press release and distributing that amongst news organisations "not prodding", but issuing a story and submitting that to a few websites "is prodding"?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:19:39

  If OSNews or LinuxToday find it newsworthy, they will include it. A Novell employee lobbied them.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:20:52

  The double standards here is just simply breathtaking.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:22:16

  How so? Be specific.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:23:37

  I already was very specific. You have no problem with Red Hat submitting a press release to news organisations, but you do have a problem with Zonker submitting a story.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:25:06

  Not a press release. See Zonker...

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:27:45

  So he submitted a blog post instead of a press release. Big deal.
  
  Don't try to pretend that you're differentiating between the two on that basis. There's no difference in the behaviour or the message, the only difference is the messenger. *Bang bang*

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:30:22

  You're missing (or dodging) the point which is the submission.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:33:01

  No, I'm dodging it, I addressed it. Zonker submitted a story to those websites, yes. Red Hat submitted their PR via the news wires. I don't see that the mechanism makes one jot of difference.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:33:57

  News wires are PR, not news.

• Tobias

  2008-12-19 10:36:49

  Alex, forget it; Roy is just a jerk (putting it politely); he ignores the truth and lies without shame.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:38:28

  "News wires not news" :D
  
  It makes no difference Roy. The site gets the story, somehow. They know who submitted it. They make the decision to run it.
  
  The statement that Novell employees are putting "pressure" on sites to run the release announcement is pretty despicable, even for this place.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:40:44

  How do you interpret "pressure"?

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:44:59

  @Roy: the word "pressure" is pretty clear. It means exerting a force on something or someone.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:48:40

  Is this use of force?

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 10:53:56

  How is that even relevant? Who would the "peers" be putting pressure on the editors of these sites? "Peers" in that context is their fellow editors.
  
  Unless you're redefining "peer pressure" to include "demand from the readership who like to hear what's going on with OpenSUSE"...

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 10:58:05

  You're missing the point. The URL was intended to show that pressure comes in subtle or gentle forms.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 11:01:23

  So state clearly what your point is rather than leave me guessing what possible meaning you might have.
  
  In the case of someone submitted a story to OSNews, then, what is this "subtle or gentle pressure" that we must be wary of? The editor feeling like he has to post the story because someone put so much time and effort into submitting it?!

• Tobias

  2008-12-19 11:01:39

  What a terrible liar Roy is. Roy, don't you have any honor? Not even honor among crooks or something? You're the Goebbels of Linux.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 11:10:39

  How am I "lying", Tobias?

• Tobias

  2008-12-19 11:23:00

  You are lying in the very headline (as usual) by claiming that Novell put pressure on anybody in order to get the release of openSUSE 11.1 into the news.
  
  No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, Wormtongue Goebbels, you are lying.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 11:37:14

  No, it's indeed pushing or prodding.

• Tobias

  2008-12-19 11:38:28

  Ha!

• Josh Bell

  2008-12-19 12:33:10

  Yet isn't that the idea of a community manager? To promote his product and the value of his product over those that are competitors. That's business Roy.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 12:34:24

  This makes the community a job.

• AlexH

  2008-12-19 12:38:08

  Other major distros employ the community spokespeople / managers.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-19 14:00:25

  If submitting a news story to a news site is "pressuring the editors to include it in the news", then Roy is more guilty than anyone else in the world. He submits his own articles to Digg and LinuxToday and others news sites on a daily basis.
  
  I think Roy needs to create a new site called BoycottRoySchestowitz.com - afterall, he's more guilty of doing the same "wrongs" he accuses others of doing.

• Ian

  2008-12-19 14:02:38

  I think Roy needs to create a new site called BoycottRoySchestowitz.com - afterall, he’s more guilty of doing the same “wrongs” he accuses others of doing.
  
  You do realize that you're advocating a paradox that might have the power to suck the entire internet into a black hole, right?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 14:04:51

  Dan,
  
  I'm not paid by companies to promote them, unlike Zonker. Big difference.

• Josh Bell

  2008-12-19 15:04:59

  Roy,
  
  Being part of the community is a JOB!!! If you choose to volunteer your time to a distro, to the kernel, what have you, there is an expectation that you will fullfill the task that you have volunteered for.
  
  Dictionary.com defines job as such: anything a person is expected or obliged to do; duty; responsibility: It is your job to be on time. There are many other definitions but a job does not have to be a paid job. There are many others like Jeremy Allison who work for companies and get paid to continue the work on their projects, yet they are part of the same community.
  
  Do you get paid by the Linux mag your write for? Do you go out and promote those articles on this site and others?

• Karen

  2008-12-19 16:35:44

  Have you seriously lost your mind?
  
  First, the community manager of a project is out *GASP* promoting his project and you find fault with that? Oh, the shame Zonker must feel at, y'know, responding to people who contact him for information about the new release, or being willing to talk about it in the press. I hope to god he can sleep at night.
  
  But, wait! Let's not stop there. Brace yourself for some information, Roy. Did you know that a PR firm probably sent out *press releases* to journalists to inform them of the upcoming release and offering to provide more info? Let's. Fire. Them. All.
  
  Dear god! I hope that Fedora's community managers are never caught talking to the press. Oh, wait. That already happens because, hmmm, I'm pretty sure I've seen Spevak and Frield's names pop up on release days. Okay, well, then, let's hope Jono Bacon or Mark Shuttleworth never talk to the press either. Oh, crap. Nope, they have too.
  
  Oh, no! Come to think of it, I've seen the community managers of lots of companies, open source and otherwise, speak positively about their own company. How positively terrible!
  
  Sigh. What's to be done about this, Roy? I mean, really?! The idea of a community manager talking about his company's product? It's a pox on the whole open source industry!
  
  So, let's make a plan, okay? How about you cull links that point to, say, 5 - 10 other community managers, devs, and leads talking about their projects to the press. Good press, bad press, whatever. List 'em all! C'mon! Then let's compare those to the travesty that you refer to above. OMG, Roy, do something! Make it stop! I'd hate to think that someone is paid to do their job! I can't bear the thought.

• narpa

  2008-12-19 18:07:38

  *giggle*
  
  Way to go, Karen; spot-on!

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-19 21:15:35

  I've never been terribly impressed by marketing.

• gpant

  2008-12-20 10:24:56

  I am sure nobody has been impressed by you

• Zac

  2008-12-21 04:05:53

  Of course Novell is making opensuse known in the press. It's basic, people. At the end of the day, Novell controls opensuse, they use it as testing ground for their SLED which is the product that makes da money for da shareholders. It's business. For different reasons from some other distros, it makes sense as a public company that Novell pushes opensuse in the press to a certain extent. Novell as a public company has obligations to its shareholders, hence the deal with Microsoft and Novell's cash injection by them.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 21:18:16

  Here's another one he's pushing.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 21:26:15

  It's posts like THIS which so harm your credibility, Roy.
  
  The fact that despite a mountain of evidence pointing to you jumping at shadows, you then go back and continue with it as if you actually had some merit in your original supposition.
  
  If you're a major distro, having someone whose "job" (paid or unpaid) it is to evangelise is not some deep dirty secret, it's NORMAL. And, as you've been told (but opted to ignore), both Canonical and Red Hat employ people who do the EXACT SAME THING for their Free distros.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 21:40:23

  AdamW is the only other person whom I know that does that. And either way, none of this was a comparison. it's merely an observation related to the way Novell markets itself.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 21:42:48

  Yes, Roy, Novell markets itself by marketing. Fancy that.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 21:53:44

  It markets a project it owns and controls whilst claiming it's a "community" project.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 22:04:21

  Unlike Fedora?

• AlexH

  2008-12-21 22:04:25

  @Roy: being "community" doesn't mean "no companies allowed". Novell are part of the OpenSUSE community (a very important part).

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 22:04:47

  It is a community project. The board has community members (e.g. not paid by Novell), community members help make the packages, etc.
  
  Novell seem to be relaxing their control over openSUSE more and more, which would mean that it is becomming more and more a community project.
  
  Let's also note that you claimed you were part of the openSUSE community before the deal - if it's not a community, as you suggest, then how were you a part of that community?
  
  By all accounts, openSUSE is even more community driven now than it was a few years ago.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 22:11:00

  Unlike Fedora?

  
  
  Yes, AFAIK. They don't seem to have a 'pusher'.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 22:12:18

  By all accounts, openSUSE is even more community driven now than it was a few years ago.

  
  
  That's not the point. They are led and controlled by a Microsoft ally; that's the point.

• AlexH

  2008-12-21 22:14:22

  Yeah, Fedora don't spread news...

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 22:15:09

  So then you admit that Novell are doing nothing wrong, it's simply that you dislike them.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 22:15:57

  Alex, show me a 'pusher' on the payroll.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 22:18:56

  Jo Shields said,
  
  December 19, 2008 at 4:52 am
  
  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields
  
  “I work for Red Hat”
  
  ZOMG SHILLING!

  
  
  Keep up at the back there

• AlexH

  2008-12-21 22:20:09

  @Roy: there's one listed on that page already. No doubt you'll find some reason to discount that, though.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 22:27:57

  Show me where Paul is prodding editors.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 22:34:24

  By your broken definition of prodding?
  
  http://lwn.net/Articles/308176/
  
  Money shot: "Paul Frields is the Fedora Project Leader and in the days before the Fedora 10 release he was giving telephone briefings to the media."
  
  Let me guess, when someone non-Novell does it, it's not "prodding", it's "engaging"?
  
  You really think that helps your credibility, Roy?

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 22:37:48

  This just keeps getting more and more hilarious watching Roy defend his lies to the death.
  
  Roy, do yourself a favor already and admit you're wrong. You can't possibly win this argument, the facts are on the table and are all against you. You've got nothing.
  
  

  You really think that helps your credibility, Roy?

  
  
  What credibility?

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 22:40:03

  What credibility?

  
  
  He believes he has some, his "team" believes it too. Perhaps one day he might understand why nobody else thinks he does, and we'll be able to point to things like this

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 22:45:57

  You have not proven me wrong. You're just rubbing each other's back.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 23:03:21

  "There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know."

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:06:57

  Roy: You said that Red Hat does not make press releases for the Fedora project. Evidence was supplied that shows that they do.
  
  Any reasonably intelligent person would agree that you have indeed been proven wrong.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:07:09

  As noted earlier in this conversation, I was talking about Novell's behaviour in isolation. That's the only point made in this post, which is easily defensible, despite your endless heckling.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:09:46

  Roy: You said that Red Hat does not make press releases for the Fedora project.

  
  
  Please show me where I said such a nonsensical thing.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 23:11:53

  As noted earlier in this conversation, I was talking about Novell’s behaviour in isolation.

  
  
  Because looking at it in the wider scope would give you less FUD to spread around liberally, for idiots to regurgitate on web forums as gospel truth?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:14:45

  No, I was pointing out facts to be considered in the future. We gather evidence.
  
  "OpenSUSE community" is Novell. It also enjoys some free labour.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:19:29

  Please show me where I said such a nonsensical thing.

  
  
  My my, how quickly we forget:
  
  

  Roy Schestowitz said, December 19, 2008 at 4:45 am
  
  No, evidence that Red Hat employees are pimping Fedora in the press. I’d like to see it.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 23:19:59

  Unlike Fedora, again?

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:21:48

  “OpenSUSE community” is Novell. It also enjoys some free labour.

  
  
  That's a contradiction. If Novell is getting "free labour" as you say, then the openSUSE community is obviously made up, at least in part, by non-Novell employees (and thus there exists a non-Novell community involved in openSUSE development).

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:22:46

  Dan,
  
  

  My my, how quickly we forget:

  
  
  As in LinuxToday, OSNews, etc.
  
  In my eyes, press releases were never articles.. or anything anyone cares about.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:23:28

  I also put a "AFAIK" earlier because this may be disputed.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:24:23

  That’s a contradiction. If Novell is getting “free labour” as you say, then the openSUSE community is obviously made up, at least in part, by non-Novell employees (and thus there exists a non-Novell community involved in openSUSE development).

  
  
  An army of people assisting Microsoft's ally, sure.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:32:24

  LinuxToday, at least, encourages companies sending them press releases.
  
  I have no idea about OSNews, but I would suspect that an announcement of openSUSE 11.1 is just as, if not more "on topic" than iPhone OS releases and Windows SDK releases which also get published as stories there.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:34:42

  Fine, but is anyone pushing these? Someone from Apple or Microsoft (other than Thom)?

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:39:49

  Maybe Zonker just submitted it before Thom had a chance to link to the story himself?
  
  If you are so sure that Novell pressured OSNews into announcing openSUSE 11.1, why don't you just ask the OSNews team? Do you enjoy spreading libelous suggestions?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:43:27

  I don't have contacts with any of them.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:45:57

  Go to http://www.osnews.com then click on the name link of one of the editors (right under a story), and it will bring you to a page with their contact information as well as a Bio.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:47:49

  I'll even help you out here: http://www.osnews.com/user/uid:3737/ - that's the guy that published the openSUSE 11.1 story from Zonker.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:48:14

  I don't know them personally, so I'm neither guaranteed a reply, nor do I see the value of asking something stupid like "hey, if Zonker didn't submit it, would you?"

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:50:08

  Dan O'Brian,
  
  Since you have so much spare time to heckle in a site you don't like, maybe you should bother with this nonsense and post the answer here.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:53:11

  I don’t know them personally, so I’m neither guaranteed a reply, nor do I see the value of asking something stupid like “hey, if Zonker didn’t submit it, would you?”

  
  
  How about asking if he was pressured into publishing the story? That's the only relevant bit here anyway, since there are other editors that might have submitted the story if no one else did.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-21 23:53:24

  Research: "nonsense". A bit like proof-reading.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-21 23:55:35

  Roy: it's pointless for me to do it as we all already know that your accusation is BS - Novell didn't force him or pressure him in any way to publish the announcement.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:55:43

  What matters is that Zonker went around pushing these; it's almost irrelevant if/why they were accepted.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-21 23:57:49

  Roy: it’s pointless for me to do it as we all already know that your accusation is BS - Novell didn’t force him or pressure him in any way to publish the announcement.

  
  
  That's not the point at all. The point is that paid Novell staff is pushing this into sites. I can only imagine that they use the same tactics to generate Novell coverage in the news.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 00:01:03

  It's the job of PR people to send out announcements to news sites. If they didn't do that, how would people see their announcements?
  
  Red Hat also does this. So does Canonical. So why is it wrong that Novell does it? This is a double standard.

• AlexH

  2008-12-22 00:05:51

  @Dan: you're missing the point. Only Novell pay people to push this stuff. The other vendors just wait for the news sites to call them up and ask if they've released anything recently, because prodding editors is wrong.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 00:14:11

  Haha, yea, because "polling" is much more efficient than having vendors notify editors of a release ;-)
  
  Roy must live in a fantasy land if he thinks that's how it works.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:17:48

  Release of what? A "community" project? I refer you back to the OP.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 00:26:11

  No one outside of this website argue that openSUSE is not a community project.
  
  And why wouldn't the openSUSE community want to announce the release of openSUSE 11.1? Zonker is a community member (he's paid by Novell, but that hardly makes him not part of the community).

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:27:40

  See the OP:
  
  "If Novell qualifies as a community of workers, then OpenSUSE is a community project. Even avid volunteers who are involved in this project have said to us that Novell controls it."

• AlexH

  2008-12-22 00:27:59

  @Roy: who do you think releases Fedora and Ubuntu?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:31:02

  It's almost a rhetorical question.

• AlexH

  2008-12-22 00:32:02

  No, it's questioning why Novell releasing OpenSUSE is "bad" but Red Hat/Canonical releasing Fedora/Ubuntu is ok.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:34:26

  This site is not about them and I don't see Jono and Paul submitting links.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 00:35:12

  You don't see because you don't look.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:36:58

  I look all the time.

• AlexH

  2008-12-22 00:37:27

  @Roy: the site not being about them isn't an excuse for holding Novell to a different standard than you would hold others.
  
  The facts are that they employ release managers, community managers and press contacts, just like Novell do.
  
  And there's nothing wrong with that.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:40:36

  I beg to differ, but that's another discussion we could have.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 00:42:14

  You beg to differ with reality?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:43:45

  "People said I should accept the world. Bullshit! I don't accept the world."

  --Richard Stallman

  
  
  ;-)

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 00:46:16

  He's talking about changing the world, not ignoring reality.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-22 00:48:37

  Good Facts are much more pleasing to the eye than True Facts though, aren't they?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:49:23

  He’s talking about changing the world, not ignoring reality.

  
  
  Reality distortion on one's payroll is propaganda under a softer name.

• Josh Bell

  2008-12-22 00:51:06

  You beg to differ that other distros employ community managers? Two have already been named. And if Zonker does things differently doesn't mean it's wrong or even pushing.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-22 00:52:06

  Reality distortion on one’s payroll is propaganda under a softer name.

  
  
  So under whose payroll do you distort reality?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:56:37

  Nobody's.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 00:57:15

  And it's not nice of you to suggest that I distort reality, either.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-22 01:04:12

  It's not nice of you to distort reality, Roy, but there we go. By now I accept it as inevitable, though.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 01:07:49

  Please show me where in the OP reality was "distorted" by me.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-22 01:13:47

  You know this, Roy. But you never admit defeat or error, so round and round we go.
  
  Sigh.
  
  The entire post is distorted, in an effort to make it appear Novell employing people who work on openSUSE (specifically in community management roles) is out of the ordinary or wrong.
  
  People have attempted (and seemingly failed) to hammer home the point that EVERY major distro does this - and both the other commercially-backed distros have paid staffers who do EXACTLY the same thing as Novell did here.
  
  Except in whatever passes for reality here on BN, when Red Hat does it it's fine, and when Novell does it there's "pressure" or "pushing"
  
  If you don't understand why you're in the wrong, then you'll never understand just what it is that makes BN such a failure as a resource

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 01:16:41

  By that logic, it is improper to say that Windows is not secure because Linux gets some patches sometimes too.

• Jo Shields

  2008-12-22 01:21:29

  By that logic, it is improper to say that Windows is not secure because Linux gets some patches sometimes too.

  
  
  Not quite.
  
  By that logic, it would be improper to point and laugh at Windows for security failings if the exact same number of critical issues were found in the same month
  
  We're at the root of the question of "double standards", which you've demonstrated you either don't understand or condone. You don't say "Alice sucks because foo" when standing next to Bob and Carol who also foo - it makes you look, well, bad.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 01:23:37

  No, the issue is that Microsoft lies and miscounts. I covered this here many times before.

• Dan O'Brian

  2008-12-22 01:32:58

  Microsoft miscounting their security bugs does not make Novell's submittal of the openSUSE 11.1 release to Linux news sites devious.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 01:40:45

  It was just a quick analogy.

• Josh Bell

  2008-12-22 03:24:59

  Roy, Linux patches fix security holes and Windows patches fix security holes. If you don't harden your Linux box you run the risk of getting hacked. If you don't harden a Windows box you run the risk of getting hacked. Windows and Linux are insecure if you don't take the time to do things right. Where Windows is weak is certainly at the virus level and the spyware level.
  
  The point that people are making and that we are going round and round about is that this article is written as if Novell is the only distro producer whod does this when it has been shown that others do it as well. Having a double standard of making it seem Novell is wrong when they do one thing and other distros are right when they do the same thing is dishonest. It is irrelevant as to whether this site is only about Novell or not.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-22 09:24:59

  It is not irrelevant. That's just your point of view.