IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 8th, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft 'indoctrinates' Best Buy workers with anti-Linux 'lies': || Desperate hun?Sep 08 00:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MAFIAA Wants Everyone to Pay for Intellectual Monopolies Violations 08 00:01
twitter1->  Why would anyone buy a larger processor that also consumes more power? ....   the Diamondville parts are clearly more affordable.  In addition, the new Atoms are the clear choice for anyone who wants to run Windows Vista.Sep 08 00:01
twitter1Intel lives in backwards world, where bigger chips are cheaper.Sep 08 00:02
twitter1These kinds of things only happen in a monopoly market.  The sooner ARM and MIPS are used to break that monopoly, the better.Sep 08 00:02
MinceRbtw, where did Transmeta go?Sep 08 00:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista a Lot of Money Down the Drain (Vista 7 to be the Same) 08 00:13
schestowitzMinceR: bankruptcySep 08 00:16
schestowitzThe Microsoft troll bought their patentsSep 08 00:16
MinceR:/Sep 08 00:16
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twitter1Yuhong Boa, is that the paid M$ astroturfer?Sep 08 00:53
twitter1He's filled up the comment section with himself.Sep 08 00:53
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twitter1what kind of Vile BS is this? ->  once Vista had settled down over the course of the first year or 18 months, it turned out to be a respectable operating system; certainly fit for purpose, and potentially offering some significant benefits, especially from an operations and risk management perspective in larger enterprises.Sep 08 00:55
twitter1What kind of "perspective" would show any version of Windows to be low risk or operational?  Nuts.Sep 08 00:56
twitter1The article claims that renaming it "Windows" again will fix things, " a tactic that seems to have paid off." Oh yeah, before sale 1, it's a big success.  Not.Sep 08 00:57
twitter1total troll!  ->   commitment and sentiment associated with Microsoft Exchange is overwhelmingly positiveSep 08 00:59
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twitter1No, I see that Boa is not the same person, just busy.Sep 08 01:06
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schestowitzThere will hopefully be "Cosmos 2" some day... with newer facts being presented to boorish folks that promote superstition.Sep 08 01:27
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twitter1Cosmos, the Biblical Literal Version.  -> 08 01:54
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twitter1ugh, H-online digital restrictions propaganda ->  if you accept that the creators of a digital work should have their copyrights protected, then the concept of DRM is not inherently a bad thingSep 08 03:40
twitter1if you accept that home owners should have their houses protected, then it's not an inherently bad thing if homeowners are allowed to shoot anyone in their home.Sep 08 03:41
twitter1acceptance of copyright is not an acceptance of digital restrictions.Sep 08 03:42
twitter1nor is it an acceptance of non free softwareSep 08 03:42
twitter1nor does it call for the destruction of xerox machines ...Sep 08 03:43
_Hicham_I have produced some drm enabled songsSep 08 03:48
_Hicham_to help me protect themSep 08 03:49
_Hicham_it is a mechanism that i have created for ogg formatSep 08 03:49
_Hicham_and implemented it with some chinese hardware makerSep 08 03:49
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bethlynnhi folksSep 08 03:56
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twitter1I will help you protect your songs, _Hicham_, by not listening to them.Sep 08 04:11
twitter1ISep 08 04:12
twitter1I'm not interested in restricted music.Sep 08 04:12
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_Hicham_Mr DaemonFCSep 08 04:15
_Hicham_howdy ?Sep 08 04:15
DaemonFCeveningSep 08 04:15
_Hicham_is it possible to have drm with ogg ?Sep 08 04:15
DaemonFCnot the containerSep 08 04:17
DaemonFCit would be possible to DRM Vorbis thoughSep 08 04:17
DaemonFCyou'd have to make a new container format that could hold a Vorbis stream, there's no reason why the container couldn't support encryption and a license schemeSep 08 04:18
DaemonFCwhy you would, I have no ideaSep 08 04:19
DaemonFCif you want to DRM something, WM-DRM is already thereSep 08 04:19
DaemonFCchances are you don't care if it works on Mac or Linux anyway, right?Sep 08 04:19
_Hicham_well I doSep 08 04:19
_Hicham_I want sthg that works on LinuxSep 08 04:20
DaemonFCthe term DRM has become so universally hated that even Microsoft hesitates to use it anymoreSep 08 04:20
DaemonFCthey use more backwards terms that make it sound like something you wantSep 08 04:20
DaemonFC"PlaysForSure" or "PlayReady" must be good, right?Sep 08 04:21
DaemonFC:PSep 08 04:21
DaemonFCfixing the PR problem by renaming what people don't likeSep 08 04:21
DaemonFCit works with Windows, why not Windows Media DRM?Sep 08 04:21
DaemonFCMicrosoft is taking a stab at misdirectionSep 08 04:22
DaemonFCit's like "Office Open XML"Sep 08 04:22
DaemonFCIt's "open" and it's "XML", what could be wrong with it? :)Sep 08 04:23
_Hicham_it is sorta porting MS technology to linuxSep 08 04:23
DaemonFCof course "PlayReady" can't be DRM if it "enhances your experience" of "protected" mediaSep 08 04:23
DaemonFCright?Sep 08 04:23
_Hicham_so that music producers can put their work on linuxSep 08 04:24
DaemonFCI mean shit, they could only get better with a free bag of chipsSep 08 04:24
_Hicham_musicians have the right to protect their music, no ?Sep 08 04:24
DaemonFCmusicians need to figure out that DRM is asking their customers not to buy it, and adding a "pretty please" at the endSep 08 04:25
_Hicham_so what is the solution to piracy in ur opinionSep 08 04:26
DaemonFCI've already said it before, there isn't oneSep 08 04:28
DaemonFCbut if you get shot in the foot, do you shoot your other foot so it matches?Sep 08 04:29
DaemonFCthat's what DRM isSep 08 04:29
DaemonFCDRM encourages piracy because it removes any incentive the user had to do the right thingSep 08 04:29
DaemonFCand in fact punishes them for paying youSep 08 04:29
DaemonFCI don't see anything wrong with cracking or using unlicensed copies of any program or music or video or whatever that uses DRM, or "product activation"Sep 08 04:30
DaemonFCthey've made a decision that shouldn't ever have to be tolerated by any paying customerSep 08 04:30
_Hicham_so they should give their music like that ?Sep 08 04:31
_Hicham_without any protection ?Sep 08 04:31
DaemonFCthere is no such thing as "protection" of computer dataSep 08 04:31
DaemonFCthere has never been any such thingSep 08 04:31
DaemonFCsoftware has been cracked for the last 30 years despite every "copy protection" scheme they've ever usedSep 08 04:32
DaemonFCit's time to admit that they're just pissing off the people who would otherwise have paid but sought out alternatives to buying a crippled product that could arbitrarily refuse to work as advertisedSep 08 04:33
DaemonFCmaybe that's using different software, maybe it's cracking the "protected" programSep 08 04:33
DaemonFCbut they're still not being paid either waySep 08 04:33
DaemonFCthey motivate people to not pay themSep 08 04:33
DaemonFCI don't think there is a right way to "protect" your program through restrictionsSep 08 04:34
DaemonFCthere's other ways of hacking at the problemSep 08 04:34
DaemonFCadding value to the product for paying customers would be a better way to protect the programSep 08 04:35
twitter1just publish music -> _Hicham_: so that music producers can put their work on linuxSep 08 04:35
DaemonFCyou can add value by lowering the price to a perceived "fair value", you can add value by providing support at no extra charge if they register it and send in proof of purchaseSep 08 04:36
DaemonFCyou can add value by listening to your users and implementing what they ask forSep 08 04:37
_Hicham_but product activation is used worldwideSep 08 04:37
_Hicham_though it is crackableSep 08 04:37
DaemonFCMicrosoft hasn't done any of that and instead have gone off towards more DRMSep 08 04:37
twitter1murder on the high seas is punished with harsh jail terms and fines, almost as bad as sharing music and videos or making a public library.  The problem is equating the two -> _Hicham_: so what is the solution to piracy in ur opinionSep 08 04:37
DaemonFCWindows 7 is already cracked and it's not even for sale yetSep 08 04:37
_Hicham_is there any keygen for RHEL ?Sep 08 04:37
DaemonFC_Hicham_, NoSep 08 04:38
twitter1there are many key generatorsSep 08 04:38
DaemonFCRed Hat knows what serials they've issued and they know about how many system's it's licensed forSep 08 04:38
_Hicham_twitter1 : are u sure ?Sep 08 04:38
twitter1oh, you guys are talking about a different kind of key.Sep 08 04:39
DaemonFCif they sell a license for 1,000 systems and suddenly there's 100,000 using that serial from 100,000 different IPs, they blacklist the serialSep 08 04:39
DaemonFCand disable your updatesSep 08 04:39
twitter1gpg makes keys that I'm talking about.Sep 08 04:39
_Hicham_DaemonFC : like Kaspersky does ?Sep 08 04:39
DaemonFCthe number has to be significantly higher than the number of systems they licensed it for before they do anything about itSep 08 04:39
DaemonFC_Hicham_, RHEL serials work like Microsoft Volume License Keys did on Win2k/XPSep 08 04:40
DaemonFCwell, about like it did anywaySep 08 04:40
DaemonFCMicrosoft blacklisted the VLK if they saw many more systems than they licensed using the same keySep 08 04:40
_Hicham_I was never blacklisted by MicrosoftSep 08 04:41
_Hicham_though we are using the same key in MoroccoSep 08 04:41
DaemonFCwell, they usually blacklist them at certain service pack levelsSep 08 04:41
DaemonFCthey do Vista blacklists through rolling WGA updates thoughSep 08 04:41
DaemonFCeach XP service pack has a lsit of VLKs it will refuse to install onSep 08 04:41
DaemonFCand companies they were issued to typically investigate and fire whoever leaked theirs if they find themSep 08 04:42
DaemonFCMicrosoft obviously isn't very concerned with who takes XP anymoreSep 08 04:42
DaemonFCit's too old to run effectively on newer equipmentSep 08 04:42
DaemonFCthey could do more to shut down unlicensed users if they gave a shitSep 08 04:43
_Hicham_newer equipment does not provide drivers for XPSep 08 04:43
DaemonFC_Hicham_, in most cases, you can get hardware to work without XP driversSep 08 04:44
_Hicham_how ?Sep 08 04:44
DaemonFCWindows 98 through 7 use the same driver architecture for everything except video cardsSep 08 04:45
_Hicham_I tried to make a sony vaio ( not very recent ) with XP, but no luckSep 08 04:45
DaemonFCit's usually possible to use a Windows Vista driver on XPSep 08 04:45
_Hicham_except for video cardsSep 08 04:45
DaemonFCthose use WDDMSep 08 04:45
_Hicham_and maybe soundSep 08 04:45
DaemonFCother drivers use WDMSep 08 04:45
DaemonFCVista can use WDM video drivers but you won't get DirectX 10 supportSep 08 04:45
_Hicham_Video card is very importantSep 08 04:46
DaemonFCand you can't watch Blu Ray discsSep 08 04:46
_Hicham_can u bear a resolution of 800x600 on a new laptop ?Sep 08 04:46
_Hicham_in vesa mode ?Sep 08 04:46
DaemonFCI use 1680 x 1050 on my desktopSep 08 04:46
DaemonFCand 1280 x 1024 on my laptopSep 08 04:46
_Hicham_well, like that, people are forced to use VistaSep 08 04:48
_Hicham_same thing will be with Windows 7Sep 08 04:48
_Hicham_thanks to god that there is LinuxSep 08 04:51
_Hicham_DaemonFC : is Mint more responsive than Ubuntu ?Sep 08 04:57
DaemonFCit essentially *is* UbuntuSep 08 04:57
DaemonFCthe GUI layout is better, the colors are different, and codecs and libdvdcss are part of the default installSep 08 04:58
DaemonFCthat's mostly the changesSep 08 04:58
DaemonFCthey have a differen't add/remove programs widget though, I like itSep 08 04:58
DaemonFCgives you screenshots of the program you're looking at, and user reviewsSep 08 04:58
DaemonFC*differentSep 08 04:58
_Hicham_a screenshot ?Sep 08 04:58
DaemonFCyeah, thumbnail imageSep 08 04:58
_Hicham_i mean can u do one of ur screenshots showing the tool ?Sep 08 04:59
_Hicham_the screenshots are hosted on debian.netSep 08 04:59
_Hicham_u might send ur screenshotsSep 08 04:59
DaemonFC_Hicham_, They're stored by the Linux Mint "software library"Sep 08 05:01
DaemonFCthey have a deal kind of like Linspire's Click 'n Run where you can click on ".mint" packages on their website and it will install the program through your apt repositorySep 08 05:01
DaemonFCthe MintInstall program is basically just a frontend to that siteSep 08 05:02
_Hicham_like openSUSE oneclick installSep 08 05:02
DaemonFCyeahSep 08 05:02
_Hicham_I don't like thatSep 08 05:02
DaemonFCyou don't have to use itSep 08 05:02
DaemonFCSynaptic is thereSep 08 05:02
_Hicham_that what makes package managers so long to loadSep 08 05:03
DaemonFCthey haven't done anything funky like thatSep 08 05:03
_Hicham_look at yastSep 08 05:03
_Hicham_after a few one-click installsSep 08 05:03
DaemonFCmint files are just added through their custom Add/Remove program toolSep 08 05:03
DaemonFCit's not a part of SynapticSep 08 05:03
_Hicham_Synaptic is just a front-end to aptSep 08 05:03
DaemonFCmint files just tell their tool what to ask apt to installSep 08 05:04
DaemonFCit's nothing slow or bloatedSep 08 05:04
_Hicham_so this doesn't add a repo ?Sep 08 05:08
DaemonFCnoSep 08 05:10
DaemonFCouchSep 08 05:12
DaemonFCEpiphany Webkit died and left a 48.5 MB crash dumpSep 08 05:12
DaemonFClolSep 08 05:12
Omar871_Hicham_: حيا الله أخوي هشام.Sep 08 05:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] تلحس بعضك يا سميح طوقان. تلحس بعضك بكل ما في الكلمة من معنى.Sep 08 05:13
Omar871_Hicham_: Do you know any Django developers?Sep 08 05:15
_Hicham_Omar871: مرحبا بأخينا و حبينا عمرSep 08 05:15
_Hicham_كيف الحال؟Sep 08 05:15
_Hicham_لا للأسفSep 08 05:16
Omar871_Hicham_: الحمد لله تمام بارك الله فيك.Sep 08 05:16
_Hicham_هل تريد المشاركة في هذا المشروع؟Sep 08 05:16
Omar871_Hicham_: مشروع؟Sep 08 05:16
_Hicham_DjangoSep 08 05:16
Omar871_Hicham_: Actually, I'm kinda learning Django these days.Sep 08 05:18
Omar871_Hicham_: So, I'm sorta looking for some kind of a team.Sep 08 05:18
Omar871_Hicham_: Ya know, experienced people I can work with, learn from, etc.Sep 08 05:19
_Hicham_unfortunately, this is the first time i hear about this frameworkSep 08 05:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC : no screenshots?Sep 08 05:22
Omar871_Hicham_: Oh, come one. Really?Sep 08 05:24
Omar871_Hicham_: It's one of the most famous Python-based web development platforms! :)Sep 08 05:24
Omar871_Hicham_: Check out the website: www.djangoproject.comSep 08 05:25
_Hicham_I ve just seen the websiteSep 08 05:27
_Hicham_it seems a great frameworkSep 08 05:27
Omar871_Hicham_: Yeah, man. It sure is. :)Sep 08 05:28
twitter1the microsoft sparta image vanished, so I put up a new one. 08 05:37
twitter1madness?  this is FREEDOOOOMMMM!Sep 08 05:37
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twitter1tried gimp 2.6, it just gets better every time I use itSep 08 05:52
twitter1the lasso tool is nicer nowSep 08 05:53
_Hicham_twitter1 : is that u with the black beard ?Sep 08 05:53
__cmmm, it certainly doesSep 08 05:53
twitter1yeah, it was a rough nightSep 08 05:53
__c_Hicham_: heh, that's an image from the movie "300".  It's become a trend on the interwebs.Sep 08 05:53
twitter1shaved the day before but woke up with that and the scar.  It was terrible.Sep 08 05:54
twitter1;-)Sep 08 05:54
_Hicham_twitter1 the criminalSep 08 05:55
twitter1freedom fighter to most, criminal to those with things to hide.Sep 08 05:55
__c... and Vigilante Superhero when night falls?Sep 08 05:56
twitter1when I have the time.Sep 08 05:56
__cheheh ^_^Sep 08 05:56
_Hicham_twitter1 the shill, looking to people from the top of the hill, and is always ready to fight and killSep 08 06:01
twitter1no killing, thank youSep 08 06:01
_Hicham_big hug to twitter1Sep 08 06:05
twitter1thanks, I needed that.Sep 08 06:06
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twitter1Slashdot picked up the WGA is Spyware story. 08 06:40
twitter1Fun, but they used standard English instead of newspeak 08 06:55
twitter1 08 06:58
twitter1free as in lice or price ->   The word free still existed in Newspeak, but could only be used in such statements as "The dog is free from lice" or "This field is free from weeds." It could not be used in its old sense of "politically free" or "intellectually free," since political and intellectual freedom no longer existed even as concepts.Sep 08 06:59
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slaxuserAnybody here?Sep 08 07:00
twitter129 people in roomSep 08 07:01
_Hicham_slaxuser : are u a slackware nerd ?Sep 08 07:02
slaxuserI like slax because I can easily remaster live cd's for friendsSep 08 07:03
_Hicham_does it have a package manager ?Sep 08 07:05
slaxuserIt uses the slackware package manager which is fairly basic. Works ok though.Sep 08 07:06
_Hicham_slaxuser : no dependencies management at all ?Sep 08 07:09
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twitter1Russia ends Windows XP case. 08 07:30
twitter1M$ still sells XP and will trade "Home" (more crippled than other versions) Vista for "Home" versions of XP for any user that requests it.Sep 08 07:31
twitter1yeah rightSep 08 07:31
_Hicham_"trade" no money at all ?Sep 08 07:42
twitter1don't think so.Sep 08 07:43
__csounds like a decent dealSep 08 07:48
__cIs it "Home Basic" they're offering?Sep 08 07:48
__cIf it's "Home Premium", that's pretty good.Sep 08 07:48
twitter1What kind of monopoly remedy is that?  "Here have another copy of Windows?" sheesh.Sep 08 07:49
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__ctwitter1: they were exploring whether Microsoft *cutbacks* of XP supply were illegal.Sep 08 07:50
__ctwitter1: This is a near-perfect remedy for that problem.Sep 08 07:50
__cAnd the Reuters article says you can trade in XP Home for Vista Home Premium, which is a reasonably sweet deal.Sep 08 07:51
twitter1so, you are an XP Home user?Sep 08 07:51
twitter1think it is "sweet" "decent" "pretty good"?Sep 08 07:51
__ctwitter1: Got it in a VM, but mainly use Ubuntu at home.Sep 08 07:51
twitter1What do you use it for?Sep 08 07:52
__ctwitter1: Flash, mostly.  Can't play Desktop TD on amd64 in Ubuntu ;).Sep 08 07:52
__ctwitter1: Who am I to tell the Russians what to use?  If they want to use Windows, let them use Windows.Sep 08 07:52
twitter1I suppose only Bill Gates can tell the Russians what to use.  Their government did not protect their right to chose anything else.Sep 08 07:53
__cAs an end-user-experience, it's definitely better than XP.Sep 08 07:53
twitter1You are off the hook ___cSep 08 07:53
cubezzznone of the anti-trust cases ended wellSep 08 07:53
__ctwitter1: ummm again, look at the problem, look at the solution.  This wasn't about monopolies.Sep 08 07:53
cubezzznot even EU commissionSep 08 07:54
__ctwitter1: this was about supply and demand *from* a monopoly position.Sep 08 07:54
twitter1quit bullshitting me __cSep 08 07:54
twitter1There's still a laptop trial.Sep 08 07:55
cubezzzRussia does want to get off Microsoft software btwSep 08 07:55
__ctwitter1: OK.  Find this "bullshit" that I've said and quote it to me, and we'll discuss it.  Don't be needlessly antagonistic.Sep 08 07:55
__ctwitter1: from the article: "Watchdog was probing cutbacks in supplies of Windows XP".Sep 08 07:56
__c"The company has largely stopped selling Windows XP to retailers and major computer makers, forcing customers into using its successor, Windows Vista."Sep 08 07:56
twitter1bullshit article.Sep 08 07:56
twitter1M$ propaganda.Sep 08 07:56
__ctwitter1: it's your referenced article.  And now it's propaganda?  You posted it here yourself.Sep 08 07:56
twitter1I posted it as an example of a raw deal.Sep 08 07:56
twitter1You seem to like that kind of deal.Sep 08 07:57
twitter1or want to antagonizeSep 08 07:57
__ctwitter1: let's see ... free upgrade.  Yes, I like it.Sep 08 07:57
twitter1or bothSep 08 07:57
twitter1FAS is an anti-trust division.Sep 08 07:57
twitter1you would think they are trying to protect a free market, you know, one with real choices.Sep 08 07:57
__ctwitter1: "antitrust" doesn't equate to "breaking up monopolies".  It means "investigating monopolies".Sep 08 07:58
twitter1not the four month availability of Windows XP, which is what they got.Sep 08 07:58
cubezzzwell, let's see, Standard Oil, AT&T, .... :)Sep 08 07:58
cubezzzthe original reason for anti-trustSep 08 07:58
twitter1one crime does not justify another.Sep 08 07:58
__ctwitter1: crime?!  what?Sep 08 07:58
twitter1society protects itself from monopolySep 08 07:59
__ctwitter1: they're offering *free upgrades*.  There's a crime here?Sep 08 07:59
twitter1predatory pricing and other dirty tricks are crimes.Sep 08 07:59
__ctwitter1: It works out for MS, because they don't have to support XP any more in Russia.Sep 08 07:59
__ctwitter1: It works out for Russians, because they get a free upgrade.Sep 08 07:59
__ctwitter1: Which other stakeholders have I left out?Sep 08 08:00
twitter1It's not free, they had to pay for a crappy OS that they get to trade for an older, crappy OS.Sep 08 08:00
__ctwitter1: what are you talking about?Sep 08 08:00
twitter1they were robbed of real choices other than Windows.  It's not a free market.Sep 08 08:00
__ctwitter1: does Russian law say you can't install OSX?  No?  Well, where's the lack of choice, then?Sep 08 08:00
__cThey paid for XP, and now they can trade up to a newer, more user-friendly OS.  Good deal.Sep 08 08:01
twitter1I imagine they do the same things there as they do here.Sep 08 08:01
twitter1There's lots of M$ email about what they do, perhaps you have read some of it at BN?Sep 08 08:01
__ctwitter1: *shrug* they do no worse than hundreds of other US corporations.Sep 08 08:02
twitter1It is more shameful that other countries allow their citizens to be robbed like that.Sep 08 08:02
twitter1Because M$ is a US company and most of the profits end up in the US, it is in the best interests of the rest of the world to escape to free software or at least their own non free software.Sep 08 08:03
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twitter1It is unbelievable that M$ has pulled of their second rate OS and text format monopolies for 30 years.Sep 08 08:04
__ctwitter1: OK.  You go tell the man-in-the-street that he should not be able to do his job as effectively because it's in the Greater Interest of Non-US Society.  Maybe that argument will fly in China.Sep 08 08:04
__cMe?  I'll continue recommending whatever's best for the job.Sep 08 08:04
__cIf it's Windows, it's Windows.  If it's Linux, it's Linux.  If it's anything else, fine as well.Sep 08 08:05
__cTechology is an *enabler*.  It is not an end in and of itself.Sep 08 08:05
twitter1What job is Windows the real answer?Sep 08 08:05
cubezzzno source code = no freedomSep 08 08:06
__ctwitter1: Umm.  Let me count the ways.  Standard document format and workflow using Sharepoint, easy-enough communication infrastructure based on Exchange, interop with clients and competitors and other businesses.Sep 08 08:06
twitter1OK now you are really trolling. -> Standard document formatSep 08 08:06
MinceRlol, "standard document format"Sep 08 08:06
MinceRget a clueSep 08 08:06
__ctwitter1: you deny that Word is the de facto standard document format?  How amusing.Sep 08 08:07
twitter1I deny that Word is any kind of "standard"Sep 08 08:07
__ctwitter1: fine.  Just ignore that 80% of the docs floating around businesses, close your eyes really tight.Sep 08 08:08
twitter1It is inconsistent and incomplete.  If that's why you recommend Windows, I pity your clients.Sep 08 08:08
__ctwitter1: my clients seem quite happy.  Why don't you come along and tell them that they can't use their existing investments, and must all switch to a different OS and retrain everyone because of your ideology?  I can't see why they wouldn't jump at the opportunity.Sep 08 08:09
twitter1For the benefit of Word, you would inflict the whole of Windows on people?  The malware, poor performance, shit GUI, all that?Sep 08 08:09
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__ctwitter1: FWIW, malware is a problem with unpatched, non-locked-down OSes *across the spectrum*.Sep 08 08:10
twitter1Vista is a bigger retrain than any of the free desktops.  You are so full of beans.Sep 08 08:10
__ctwitter1: poor performance isn't really true.Sep 08 08:10
twitter1I'm tired of this troll fest.Sep 08 08:10
__ctwitter1: And "shit GUI" is just plain false.  Vista is much easier to use than XP.Sep 08 08:10
cubezzztheir filesystems fragment though, quite a lotSep 08 08:10
__ctwitter1: Might I recommend that you *stop trolling*, then.Sep 08 08:10
*twitter1 ignores __c trollSep 08 08:10
cubezzzhence poor performance, cycles wasting scanning for malware all the time...Sep 08 08:11
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__ccubezzz: AV solutions are a bit more sophisticated than that these days.Sep 08 08:11
__ccubezzz: Usually, it's on-access scanning combined with DEP.Sep 08 08:12
__ccubezzz: the performance impact is low enough; and, besides, the fact of the matter is that most users don't end up using those cycles anyway.  On whatever OS, the CPU usage rarely climbs to 100% and sticks there.  Multi-core makes the problem go even further away.Sep 08 08:13
cubezzz__c: let me ask you a simple question, do you have the source code for your windows device drivers? :)Sep 08 08:13
__ccubezzz: no.Sep 08 08:13
cubezzzhow about the windows kernel?Sep 08 08:14
__ccubezzz: no ...Sep 08 08:14
lark_you dont have the source for all the linux device drivers either, alot are binary blobsSep 08 08:14
cubezzzlark_, I doSep 08 08:15
__ccubezzz: I'm not really seeing your point.Sep 08 08:15
cubezzzmy point is you can't fix any device drivers, and you're dependent on someone else fixing any bugsSep 08 08:15
__ccubezzz: by that reasoning, I should be able to change clipping coordinates on my NVidia card when it outputs to a TV.  Oh wait, I can't do that on Linux.  But surely someone would have jumped in and fixed that for me?Sep 08 08:16
__ccubezzz: Let me do a Google search.  No, *nothing*.Sep 08 08:17
cubezzzbecause you don't have the source code...Sep 08 08:17
__ccubezzz: even if you have the source code, do you have the time to fix it?  And the ability?  Can you psychically channel Con Kolivas?Sep 08 08:18
cubezzzI have learned a lot looking at driver source codeSep 08 08:19
cubezzznot having the source is very badSep 08 08:20
__ccubezzz: I'm sure you have.  However, learning and fixing are two very different things.Sep 08 08:20
__ccubezzz: And if your argument hinges on "without source code, you can't learn about your OS", I would ask how many people are interested in that.Sep 08 08:20
cubezzzI can't speak for other people, just myselfSep 08 08:21
cubezzzalthough I'd say having the source code for drivers would be a boon to any programmerSep 08 08:21
__ccubezzz: likewise.  Nevertheless, you should see that if you don't have the source code for Windows -- so what?  99.999% of Windows users don't care.Sep 08 08:21
__cAnd Windows is a *good* solution for them, unless they do happen to care -- in which case, I would obviously not recommend Windows to them.Sep 08 08:22
cubezzzpeople should have a choice in stores thoughSep 08 08:22
__ccubezzz: no.  Why should they?Sep 08 08:22
__ccubezzz: customers demand, supplers supply *if they want to*.Sep 08 08:23
cubezzzso they can pick the operating system themselvesSep 08 08:23
__ccubezzz: that increases the support burden on the supplier.  Obviously, from their perspective, that is a bad thing.Sep 08 08:24
cubezzzso they aren't forced to pay for windowsSep 08 08:24
MinceR99.999% of windows users don't know what an operating system isSep 08 08:24
__ccubezzz: you can go the refund route.  Or build by component.Sep 08 08:24
MinceRand they don't know they could care.Sep 08 08:24
__cMinceR: exactly.  And that's fine, because technology is an enabler.  It's not an end.Sep 08 08:25
cubezzzMinceR, I don't think the percentage is really that lowSep 08 08:25
MinceRno, it isn't fine.Sep 08 08:25
__cwhy not?Sep 08 08:25
MinceRit's the reason they're resorting to windows.Sep 08 08:25
MinceRwhich impedes them in every task.Sep 08 08:25
cubezzz__c, you understand I don't want to go the "refund route" right?Sep 08 08:25
MinceRignorance does not turn a bad tool into a good one.Sep 08 08:25
__ccubezzz: that's your choice, then.  Yes, it's a lot of admin for you.  So?Sep 08 08:25
lark_then build your own systemSep 08 08:26
__ccubezzz: A supplier is not under an obligation to cater to your demands.Sep 08 08:26
MinceRlark_: how can he build a laptop?Sep 08 08:26
__cMinceR: Windows is fine and usable for many common tasks: document editing, playing games, surfing the web, etc.Sep 08 08:26
cubezzz__c, if a supplier doesn't "cater to my demands" I don't do business with them :)Sep 08 08:26
cubezzz__c, do you buy stuff you don't want?Sep 08 08:27
MinceR__c: tell that to those who have to reinstall because it collected so many crudSep 08 08:27
__ccubezzz: great, so you end up building by component.  Which was the other choice I mentioned ^_^.Sep 08 08:27
MinceR(malware, obsolete registry entries)Sep 08 08:27
MinceR__c: can he build a laptop by component?Sep 08 08:27
__ccubezzz: all the time.  I buy biscuits, which come individually-wrapped.  What a waste, to my mind, but they're passing the cost of it to me and I pay it, because I like the biscuits.Sep 08 08:28
MinceRand you wouldn't have it any other way?Sep 08 08:28
cubezzzthat does sound wastefulSep 08 08:28
__cMinceR: *shrug* I don't know.  Probably not.Sep 08 08:28
__cMinceR: I'd have a lot of things another way.  That doesn't affect reality.Sep 08 08:28
lark_I can buy off the shelf Laptops without HD's and I can buy HD;s for laptops that are blank.Sep 08 08:28
cubezzzguys, of course I assemble, I've been assembling computers for over 20 yearsSep 08 08:29
MinceR__c: so you instead lie to yourself that windows is just fine.Sep 08 08:29
cubezzzI know about it :)Sep 08 08:29
__cMinceR: no, I've told you a number of tasks for which Windows is just fine.Sep 08 08:29
MinceRlark_: where?Sep 08 08:29
lark_local computer shop, anywhere, everywhere.Sep 08 08:29
__clark_: can't find it at my computer shop :/.Sep 08 08:30
MinceRyou have interesting local computer shops.Sep 08 08:30
cubezzzhmm, that is interestingSep 08 08:30
cubezzzI'll ask around for thatSep 08 08:30
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*twitter has kicked __c from #boycottnovell (twitter)Sep 08 08:30
cubezzzummmSep 08 08:31
twitter:-DSep 08 08:31
cubezzzok :)Sep 08 08:31
lark_we also have every few months a "computer fair" that attends a local stadium, where hundreds of computer sellers sell everything, at low prices.Sep 08 08:31
twitterhe'll be back, I'm sure.Sep 08 08:31
cubezzzlark_, where do you live?Sep 08 08:31
lark_AustraliaSep 08 08:31
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__ctwitter: wtf?Sep 08 08:32
twitterbehave.Sep 08 08:32
twitterthis is not a channel to promote windows.Sep 08 08:32
cubezzzI'd rather the OEMs, any OEM, would support Linux, and Sharp does, so there are someSep 08 08:32
__ctwitter: I was misled by the topic, " Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software".  Please change the topic to reflect the true intent of the channel.Sep 08 08:32
cubezzzI buy from Sharp for that reasonSep 08 08:32
twitterbehave __cSep 08 08:33
cubezzzanyone, my philosophy is to support FOSSSep 08 08:33
cubezzzI don't expect everyone to be the same as meSep 08 08:33
__ctwitter: no, you behave.  You're abusing your ops, and preventing us from having a proper conversation.Sep 08 08:34
__ctwitter: nobody here, apart from you, is calling me a troll.Sep 08 08:34
__ctwitter: that should be a clue to you.Sep 08 08:35
MinceR__c: others have already, before.Sep 08 08:35
MinceR__c: but if you need clarification: you're a troll.Sep 08 08:35
twitter1Quit giving me clues __cSep 08 08:35
__cMinceR: then don't interact with me.  Ignore me.  That's how to defeat a troll.Sep 08 08:35
MinceR__c: not really.Sep 08 08:36
cubezzzI had a very interesting time studying bttv, if I had a windows system, I could not have learning much from the device driver for say a hauppage tv tuner cardSep 08 08:36
MinceR__c: how you defeat a troll on irc is kick/ban/kline/gline/gzline.Sep 08 08:36
MinceR(or silence)Sep 08 08:36
cubezzznot to mention I frequently recompile applications and windows managersSep 08 08:37
__cMinceR: tell you what, I'll make it easy for you, and not respond to you.  That way, I'll only be talking to people who want to actually engage on issues.Sep 08 08:38
MinceRon windows, recompiling the windows manager would mean recompiling windows itself :>Sep 08 08:38
cubezzzif Linux FOSS software becomes unsupported, I can still add new featuresSep 08 08:38
cubezzze.g. kookaSep 08 08:38
MinceR__c: that's good.Sep 08 08:38
MinceRs/ws m/w m/Sep 08 08:38
cubezzzI try to even encourage manufacturers like HP to do more Linux support, I talk to the dev groupsSep 08 08:39
cubezzzand they helped me with programming documentationSep 08 08:39
Diablo-D3HP enterprise stuff isnt so badSep 08 08:40
Diablo-D3its the pre- and post-Compaq consumer shit thats badSep 08 08:40
cubezzzDiablo-D3, yeah I was trying to get HP to give me programming info for their newer scannersSep 08 08:40
cubezzzthey would only give me the docs for the older onesSep 08 08:40
Diablo-D3I'm surprised HP just hasn't moved to a singular scanner interface across all scannersSep 08 08:41
Diablo-D3they produce enough of the damn things, and writing drivers suck even for their own peopleSep 08 08:41
cubezzz 08 08:41
Diablo-D3but yeah, your problem is well knownSep 08 08:41
Diablo-D3HP doesn't make the world's greatest scanners, so I dont really careSep 08 08:42
cubezzz;-)Sep 08 08:42
Diablo-D3for standard sized flatbets, epson and canon have models that are tied for the number one spotSep 08 08:42
cubezzzI'll probably go epson next when my HP 5200C diesSep 08 08:43
Diablo-D3look at the v500 or 700Sep 08 08:43
Diablo-D3they have linux drivers, but they're closed sourceSep 08 08:43
Diablo-D3but they _do_ workSep 08 08:43
cubezzzhmmmSep 08 08:43
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Diablo-D3imo its semi-pointless to have linux drivers for scanners sometimesSep 08 08:43
Diablo-D3I use photoshopSep 08 08:44
Diablo-D3so I'm going to be plugging my scanner into virtualbox's usb pass through and go from thereSep 08 08:44
MinceRso it's semi-pointless for youSep 08 08:44
cubezzzI have reverse-engineered drivers for some stuffSep 08 08:44
MinceRi use gimp, so it's important for meSep 08 08:44
Diablo-D3I still run photoshop on linux, mind you, just not directlySep 08 08:44
Diablo-D3MinceR: gimp has... issues.Sep 08 08:44
DaemonFCvirtualization is still too damned slow to be useful on most hardware out thereSep 08 08:44
MinceRso does photoshopSep 08 08:44
DaemonFCyou're better off just dual booting if you need WindowsSep 08 08:44
cubezzzDiablo-D3, yeah I just like to program everything if I canSep 08 08:45
Diablo-D3photoshop at least handles 16-bit per channel and color spacesSep 08 08:45
MinceRDaemonFC: that is, if you only need windows at that timeSep 08 08:45
Diablo-D3gimp only recently gained color spacesSep 08 08:45
MinceRwhich means gimp has them :>Sep 08 08:45
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: virtualbox is nearly native speed for meSep 08 08:45
cubezzzI even tried to get the source code for my router software :)Sep 08 08:45
Diablo-D3MinceR: gimp doesnt have 16 bit per pixel images yetSep 08 08:45
MinceRwhich you may or may not needSep 08 08:45
DaemonFCrun Photoshop in Wine?Sep 08 08:46
__cDaemonFC: try it out on something with virtualisation extensions.  Other than GPU-intensive stuff, it's pretty much native speed.Sep 08 08:46
MinceRthe newest photoshop doesn't tend to run in wineSep 08 08:46
Diablo-D3wine sucks badlySep 08 08:46
DaemonFCmy CPU has hardware virtualizationSep 08 08:46
cubezzzI tend towards the Stallman philosophy without being as strict as StallmanSep 08 08:46
Diablo-D3my cpu also has hardware virtualization... windows is nearly native speed for meSep 08 08:46
__cDaemonFC: what app are you running?Sep 08 08:46
MinceRalso, there are virtualizers that support DirectX and/or OpenGL accelerationSep 08 08:46
DaemonFCVista is just too fucking fat to run all by itselfSep 08 08:46
Diablo-D3MinceR: virtualboxSep 08 08:47
DaemonFCmuch less on some kind of VMSep 08 08:47
MinceRDiablo-D3: iirc that only does OpenGLSep 08 08:47
DaemonFC:)Sep 08 08:47
Diablo-D3virtualbox has nearly complete opengl passthrough and they use wine3d in clientspace to do d3dSep 08 08:47
MinceRicSep 08 08:47
MinceRVMware claims to do directx and can make use of VMGLSep 08 08:47
Diablo-D3wine3d is replacement direct3d dlls for real windows based on the wine codeSep 08 08:47
MinceRtoo bad vmware is crap otherwiseSep 08 08:47
__calthough the d3d is pretty shoddy.Sep 08 08:47
Diablo-D3d3d itself is pretty shoddySep 08 08:47
DaemonFCWindows is pretty shoddySep 08 08:47
Diablo-D3wine has problems even coding the stuff to begin with because d3d is so poorly designedSep 08 08:48
MinceRanything developed by m$ is pretty shoddySep 08 08:48
__cwell, d3d has problems, but so does openGLSep 08 08:48
Diablo-D3photoshop uses opengl, btw, not d3dSep 08 08:48
MinceROpenGL's problem is called "micro$oft"Sep 08 08:48
Diablo-D3and yes, the gpu acceleration in photoshop does work in virtualboxSep 08 08:48
DaemonFCface it, when you use Wine, you're using something that's aiming to be roughly compatible with a buggy system that's buckling under 10 layers of legacy crapSep 08 08:48
Diablo-D3though its not as nifty as it should beSep 08 08:48
Diablo-D3I dont use gigantic 10000000x100000000 imagesSep 08 08:49
DaemonFCWine does a pretty good job when you think about it that waySep 08 08:49
Diablo-D3wine is not perfectSep 08 08:49
Diablo-D3thus it causes severe problemsSep 08 08:49
DaemonFCI've had Vista fuck up and eat my data far more times than Wine hasSep 08 08:49
MinceRnothing is perfect :)Sep 08 08:49
DaemonFChonestlySep 08 08:49
Diablo-D3Ive never had windows do thatSep 08 08:49
Diablo-D3seriouslySep 08 08:49
cubezzzI don't see how wine could be anywhere near perfectSep 08 08:49
Diablo-D3as much as I hate windows, Ive never had it eat dataSep 08 08:50
MinceRi've had it eat dataSep 08 08:50
Diablo-D3then again, I don't get virusesSep 08 08:50
Diablo-D3nor do I buy hardware with shoddy driversSep 08 08:50
MinceRxp looked at my VFAT partitions, then it trashed them allSep 08 08:50
cubezzzDiablo-D3, how do you know if the drivers are shoddy or not before you use them? :)Sep 08 08:50
MinceRi could only regain part of my data via GetDataBackSep 08 08:50
Diablo-D3cubezzz: the internet.Sep 08 08:51
cubezzza lot of people say 5200C is garbageSep 08 08:51
MinceR"don't worry ma'am, we're from the internet"Sep 08 08:51
cubezzzit's not thoughSep 08 08:51
DaemonFCIf I had a dollar for every time Vista has made me want to punch the monitor I could buy Microsoft and GPL WindowsSep 08 08:51
Diablo-D3well, most scanner softwares are shitSep 08 08:51
Diablo-D3I dont bother using the drivers if I can get away with itSep 08 08:51
Diablo-D3vuescan works in linuxSep 08 08:52
cubezzzI use mogrify for sharpening and contrast and stuffSep 08 08:52
twitter1kooka is simple and worksSep 08 08:52
Diablo-D3on _some_ scanners it requires the drivers, but it doesnt use the rest of the software suiteSep 08 08:52
Diablo-D3I use vuescan only to scanSep 08 08:52
Diablo-D3best scanner frontend ever writtenSep 08 08:52
cubezzzis kooka still being updated though?Sep 08 08:52
twitter1If you avoid hardware that has shit drivers, you can use kookaSep 08 08:52
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twitter1I don't need updates for something that worksSep 08 08:53
cubezzzhe's a cynic alright :)Sep 08 08:53
cubezzztwitter1, true and you have the source so no big dealSep 08 08:53
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, Which is your favorite Vista error? When the SATA driver crashes and you get the random blue screen of death or when your wireless adapter freezes the computer with no warning? Mine is definitely those two tied with "System wakes up from sleep mode precisely whenever" as the runner upSep 08 08:54
cubezzzI modded mplayer, I can't mod windows media player, QED :)Sep 08 08:55
DaemonFCOh, and let's not forget "Web browser crashes on Ustream or when you're on Windows x64 and hit BroadcastSep 08 08:56
cubezzzI'd recommend looking at sopcast actuallySep 08 08:57
cubezzzUstream and are kind of crappySep 08 08:57
DaemonFCevery version of Windows has bugs, lots and lots of bugsSep 08 08:57
DaemonFCI don't think Vista had anything that even came close to workingSep 08 08:57
MinceRdepends on what their goal was :>Sep 08 08:58
DaemonFCoh, then there's the bug where you go to delete a folder and Vista tells you there is no such folderSep 08 08:58
DaemonFCand you have to open the command prompt and delete it by it's MS-DOS 8.3 nameSep 08 08:58
DaemonFCspeaking of which, Windows Live Messenger truncates long file namesSep 08 08:59
MinceRlulzSep 08 08:59
DaemonFCI think I've hit just about every Vista bug there was and found moreSep 08 09:00
twitter1here are some more 08 09:00
DaemonFCthen Windows 7 is almost as stupid with those damnable "virtual libraries"Sep 08 09:00
cubezzzDaemonFC, ok, if you think windows is that crappy, why don't you stop using it?Sep 08 09:00
twitter1he didSep 08 09:01
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: I dont use vistaSep 08 09:01
Diablo-D3I only use xpSep 08 09:01
DaemonFCyou go to pick a folder to save something to and there's a library called "Music" and it says "That's not a folder you stupid ass"Sep 08 09:01
DaemonFCand you think "Well why the hell can't it FORWARD the request?"Sep 08 09:01
Diablo-D3I dont like libraries in vistaSep 08 09:02
Diablo-D3they're weirdSep 08 09:02
Diablo-D3its basically unionfs for directoriesSep 08 09:02
DaemonFCgranted that Windows 7's GUI isn't the clusterfuck that Vista is, but it's still not intuitive, and I still found myself tripping over thingsSep 08 09:02
twitter1this kind of ranting is typical.  Windows does that to people.  They calm down after a few years of free software use.  After a decade, I can almost forget these things....Sep 08 09:02
twitter1then I go to work and stare at XP.Sep 08 09:03
twitter1so horribleSep 08 09:03
DaemonFCtwitter1, looks like you're trying to claw your eyes out, want some help?Sep 08 09:03
DaemonFC:DSep 08 09:03
cubezzzyeah windows is very hard to avoid completelySep 08 09:03
MinceRcan you take a laptop to work?Sep 08 09:03
twitter1I can bring a laptop, but I still have to use the company record keeping software.Sep 08 09:04
DaemonFCwhoever thought green and blue would be good colors to put in the same theme needs to be kicked in the nutsSep 08 09:05
cubezzzI'm not learning to program under Vista, no way :)Sep 08 09:05
MinceRit might still lessen the strain -- if there are any other apps to use beside itSep 08 09:05
twitter1Windows is not that hard to avoid, but I have to work with people who don't know any better.Sep 08 09:06
DaemonFCcubezzz, Just use .NET, it instantly balloons to take up all the user's resources and then someSep 08 09:06
DaemonFCdoesn't seem to matter what the app isSep 08 09:06
twitter1I can get real work done on the laptop.  The other stuff.  Well, I just put up with being less efficient.Sep 08 09:06
twitter1Lots of stupid clicking.  No place keeping.  Poor stability.  Not even tabbed browsing to help make space on the single screen interface.Sep 08 09:08
DaemonFCwhat I can't believe is that there's people that shop online and punch in their credit card numbers on the same computer they have Limewire onSep 08 09:08
twitter1What I can't believe is how people use the same kind of software at the other end, in the business and at the bank.Sep 08 09:08
DaemonFCsomeone asked me why I wouldn't buy something online with their computer, I asked them if they knew anyone with needles to share while I was at itSep 08 09:08
cubezzzwell the browser encrypts information like passwordsSep 08 09:09
DaemonFCdoesn't matterSep 08 09:09
twitter1keyloggers on windows catch every strokeSep 08 09:09
DaemonFCspyware uses keyloggersSep 08 09:09
DaemonFCit can just snag it as you typeSep 08 09:09
cubezzzwell, that's just another reason not to use dozeSep 08 09:09
twitter1puts them in a file and greps it for passwordsSep 08 09:09
DaemonFCwho gives a shit if the browser encrypts it after it's too late?Sep 08 09:09
cubezzzhow do you know there isn't a backdoor in windows for that matter?Sep 08 09:11
cubezzzyou don't have the sourceSep 08 09:11
twitter1"Get rich or die tryin" harvested information at the stores.  Same Windows, same cracks.Sep 08 09:11
DaemonFCcubezzz, I doubt Microsoft is stealing credit card numbersSep 08 09:11
DaemonFCthey can get that much money from you by releasing an "upgrade" to Windows or OfficeSep 08 09:11
DaemonFCwhy resort to illegal activity?Sep 08 09:11
cubezzzDaemonFC, ummmSep 08 09:11
cubezzzI'm sure they do resort to illegal activity :)Sep 08 09:12
twitter1they can make money monitoring and selling your info without robbing your ccSep 08 09:12
cubezzzmaybe not stealing cc numbers, but in other waysSep 08 09:12
twitter1they are a convicted monopolist, a felonSep 08 09:12
DaemonFCtwitter1, I'm sure they doSep 08 09:12
twitter1spywareSep 08 09:12
cubezzzlike schestowitz said, Gates was trained as a lawyer, knows how to skirt the lawSep 08 09:13
DaemonFCSpyware on Windows is like roachesSep 08 09:13
twitter1Vista has those nifty indexing routines ....Sep 08 09:13
DaemonFCyou can spray all you want and they just scatter and come back laterSep 08 09:13
cubezzzright, well I don't seem to have these problems :)Sep 08 09:15
cubezzzno viruses, no spywareSep 08 09:15
DaemonFCDRM, anti-features, spyware, costs $300, what's not to love?Sep 08 09:15
cubezzzthe DRM thing I hated the most was the videos that expireSep 08 09:16
cubezzzafter a year, it stops workingSep 08 09:16
DaemonFCif your system has Windows on it, you're renting your own property from MicrosoftSep 08 09:16
schestowitzKDE shines almost everywhere. I'm just waiting for knode to regain some features like drag-and-sropSep 08 09:17
cubezzzI've been off doze since 2003, I wasn't as quick as someSep 08 09:17
schestowitz*fropSep 08 09:17
schestowitz>*dropSep 08 09:17
schestowitzHey, bethlynn. wbSep 08 09:17
DaemonFCMicrosoft can't steal your computer and make you pay ransom, but they may as well. They have it to where it looks like Windows is part of the system. They train support monkeys at HP and Dell to tell you that it won't work without Windows...Sep 08 09:18
cubezzzDell does sell linux boxesSep 08 09:19
cubezzzyou can buy online from and even get free shippingSep 08 09:19
DaemonFCNot really they don't. They're the same price as the Windows ones and there's only 1 model in each categorySep 08 09:19
DaemonFCDell's Linux systems are a rip off and a halfSep 08 09:20
DaemonFCthen they do shit like sell the Windows version of that system with a free printer or somethingSep 08 09:20
DaemonFCtheir "specials" never apply to the Linux systemsSep 08 09:21
DaemonFCAnd they don't even currently _have_ a desktop model for sale. Have you noticed this?Sep 08 09:21
cubezzzDaemonFC, yeah there isn't really a good selection, no doubt about itSep 08 09:22
DaemonFCsomething tells me that Dell is the next "It's Better With Windows" camperSep 08 09:22
DaemonFCright after they purge the rest of the Ubuntu systems they have on handSep 08 09:22
cubezzzI'm merely pointing out that at least they do sell boxes with Linux, and also have some dual-boot systems, when sometimes when the customer doesn't even ask for dual-bootSep 08 09:22
DaemonFCthey won't for much longerSep 08 09:23
DaemonFCI can just smell Microsoft around, twisting their arm, greasing the gearsSep 08 09:23
cubezzzwell, sounds like it's time for a build your own laptop project :)Sep 08 09:23
DaemonFC"Sell Windows! It's the one that lets you bombard the customer with 20 gigabytes of crapware!"Sep 08 09:23
cubezzzI can assemble a laptop, and do most repairsSep 08 09:24
DaemonFCand visions of Norton dollar signs dance in their headsSep 08 09:24
DaemonFCWhen OEMs can figure out how to get you to pay $60 more for a Linux system -or- make $60 per system in kickbacks from crapware bundles like they do with Windows, you'll see more Linux systems out thereSep 08 09:26
cubezzzthe earliest personal computers were in kit formSep 08 09:26
DaemonFCthe OEMs don't give you a clean Windows disc so you can wipe out the crapware once and for allSep 08 09:28
DaemonFCthey give you a "recovery partition" that resurrects the crapware, all of it, when Windows bites the dust and you need to recoverSep 08 09:28
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Eye on Microsoft: The Security Comedy Resumes 08 10:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Best Buy Has Collusion/Racketeering History with Microsoft, Anti-GNU/Linux Training Comes to Staples Employees Too 08 10:54
*schestowitz has justb files a "wishlist" bug to kde: 08 11:08
schestowitz*just filedSep 08 11:08
DaemonFCI'd like to see them port Cheese actuallySep 08 11:09
schestowitzTo what?Sep 08 11:19
DaemonFCKDESep 08 11:26
DaemonFCuggh, my ear is killing meSep 08 11:26
MinceRthen they could call it KeezeSep 08 11:26
MinceRor KamembertSep 08 11:26
DaemonFCI went to the doctor and paid him $90 so he could tell me I've developed TMJ pain and to take aspirinSep 08 11:27
DaemonFCKheeseSep 08 11:27
MinceRat least you know it isn't something more seriousSep 08 11:27
schestowitzDoesn't cheese use plugins with Mono? I'm sure it dos.Sep 08 11:30
schestowitz*doesSep 08 11:30
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DaemonFCschestowitz, Cheese does not depend on MonoSep 08 11:33
MinceRi was thinking of writing something that can replace gnome-do and its file/folder pluginSep 08 11:33
MinceRperhaps a plugin to KatapultSep 08 11:33
DaemonFCMinceR, Just something about paying him $90 cause I think my ear is about to rot and fall off and he tells me it's a damned nuisance and to take aspirinSep 08 11:34
DaemonFCjust something about that bothers meSep 08 11:34
MinceRwell, now you know your ear isn't about to rot nor to fall offSep 08 11:34
DaemonFCthat's not how it should workSep 08 11:35
DaemonFCwhen I pay someone $90 cause I think my ear is about to rot and fall off they should say "Damn! You got here just in time!" and give me pillsSep 08 11:35
DaemonFCit makes me feel better for having paid the $90Sep 08 11:35
DaemonFC:)Sep 08 11:35
MinceRor they should say "well, it wasn't but *sneak-injects you with something* now it is!"Sep 08 11:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Less Secure Than Predecessors? Remote BSoD Now Possible! 08 11:38
schestowitz^^^DaemonFC: if you boot into Vista 7, then we can take you down (BSOD) :-pSep 08 11:38
MinceRfinallySep 08 11:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I really should have plugged the bouncy castle into a different 4-way. Sophie comes to turn it on and I twitch she will turn off the router.Sep 08 11:39
MinceRthe feature we've all been waiting for!Sep 08 11:39
schestowitzRemote disablementSep 08 11:40
schestowitzVista 7 should make no foes...Sep 08 11:40
schestowitzVista 7 _users_ should make no foes, either./Sep 08 11:40
MinceRwith that "rewrite" some bugs did stay around anywaySep 08 11:41
schestowitzI don't know...Sep 08 11:44
schestowitzBUT...Sep 08 11:44
schestowitzThey did have some TCP/IP bugs beforeSep 08 11:44
schestowitzLike packet that owned VistaSep 08 11:44
schestowitzThat's how bad it isSep 08 11:44
schestowitzMuch worse than BSoD.Sep 08 11:44
DaemonFCMicrosoft never rewrites anythingSep 08 11:45
DaemonFCthey blow some of the dust off things when they can't possibly hide how unkind time has been to itSep 08 11:46
DaemonFC:)Sep 08 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Windows 7 reintroduces remote BSoD! Well done, guys. #microsoftfailSep 08 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] please vote up the remote BSoD link on Slashdot 08 11:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Oops. Just found myself bouncing on the castle. How did that happen.Sep 08 11:56
DaemonFCschestowitz, the BSD networking code was gone as of Windows 2000Sep 08 11:59
DaemonFCyou're thinking WAY back to NT 3.x/4Sep 08 12:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] European Litigation Act: 08 12:04
schestowitzAsay is being obnoxious.. 08 12:18
trmancohow do you know that? do you have access to windows source code?Sep 08 12:44
schestowitzRussia drops XP investigation < >Sep 08 12:45
schestowitzDidot at Reg: 08 12:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @werdnum The Lorem Ipsum song #winSep 08 12:54
schestowitztestSep 08 13:02
schestowitzI'm just customising the IRC clientSep 08 13:02
schestowitzKonversation is very powerfulSep 08 13:02
schestowitz_logtest2Sep 08 13:07
DaemonFC,vepisode,1Sep 08 13:08
DaemonFClol @ 3:23Sep 08 13:08
DaemonFCthat does explain where the paycheck goesSep 08 13:09
schestowitzFirefox upgrade will check for third party updates < > Does it not already do that?Sep 08 13:09
DaemonFCshe envisions her boss cutting into her check "FICA, Medicare, Medicaid, Federal Tax, State Tax, Social Security Tax, Vision, Dental, Mental", each time cutting the check in half til there's only a speck of paper leftSep 08 13:10
DaemonFC"Somehow, having no money doesn't sound like a health benefit"Sep 08 13:10
DaemonFCbest scene ever :)Sep 08 13:10
schestowitzThat's how it goesSep 08 13:10
Diablo-D3wellSep 08 13:11
schestowitzThere's no law on distribution of wealth INSIDE corporationsSep 08 13:11
Diablo-D3it could swing the other waySep 08 13:11
schestowitzBecause they are tytrannies in natureSep 08 13:11
Diablo-D3make both health care benifits and insurance illegalSep 08 13:11
Diablo-D3which would also be an acceptable solutionSep 08 13:11
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, Unless you're a "concerned citizen against ObamaCare" (Read: Insurance company lobbyist/astroturfer or just plain fucking stupid)Sep 08 13:12
DaemonFC:)Sep 08 13:12
DaemonFCplenty of them to go around for the Fixed News cycleSep 08 13:12
DaemonFCplenty of crazy cat ladies to rile up with the "They're gonna kill Grandma" lieSep 08 13:13
DaemonFCschestowitz, 08 13:14
DaemonFCAnn Coulter?Sep 08 13:15
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: noSep 08 13:15
Diablo-D3health insurance actually should be illegal imoSep 08 13:15
DaemonFCoh right, there's no adam's appleSep 08 13:15
Diablo-D3obamacare simply covers up the problemSep 08 13:15
DaemonFCcan't be Ann CoulterSep 08 13:15
Diablo-D3health insurance, by the literal reading of the name, means "insurance, of the definition everyone uses, that insures your health"Sep 08 13:16
Diablo-D3ie, you get sick, they pay for itSep 08 13:16
Diablo-D3periodSep 08 13:16
schestowitz T-Mobile and Orange in UK merger < >Sep 08 13:16
Diablo-D3no canceling your insurance because you got sick, no not paying for things, no anythingSep 08 13:16
Diablo-D3having problems being profitable? your failed business model is not my problem.Sep 08 13:17
DaemonFCyeah, that's where they get youSep 08 13:17
Diablo-D3medicare worked pretty damned well for 20+ yearsSep 08 13:17
DaemonFCyou pay all their premiums then they drop you once you make a serious enough claimSep 08 13:17
DaemonFCso what good is it?Sep 08 13:17
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: yupSep 08 13:17
Diablo-D3thats not insuranceSep 08 13:17
Diablo-D3thats a class action.Sep 08 13:18
Diablo-D3I'm both for and against obamacareSep 08 13:18
Diablo-D3on one hand, it doesnt work because it doesnt shorten the leash enoughSep 08 13:18
Diablo-D3on the other hand, if it doesnt pass, we're writing those companies a blank checkSep 08 13:18
schestowitz_log[ignore] test /highlight/ - schestowitzSep 08 13:18
DaemonFCwell, the system where they have to compete with the public option is better than letting them run amokSep 08 13:18
Diablo-D3they'll know they can do anything and not get in troubleSep 08 13:18
DaemonFCwhich is what we have nowSep 08 13:18
schestowitzOK, it worksSep 08 13:18
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: well, obamacare works because of thatSep 08 13:18
Diablo-D3it forces the really bad ones out of businessSep 08 13:19
Diablo-D3which, as a whole, greatly improves the systemSep 08 13:19
Diablo-D3if a company starts shafting people, people _can_ go elsewhereSep 08 13:19
Diablo-D3the concept of a public option shouldn't even be allowed to be voted by congress: its ultimately an expression of our constitutional rightsSep 08 13:19
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, Walmart employees qualify for food stamps, state and federal health benefits, and public assisted housingSep 08 13:19
DaemonFCyou don't save anything when you shop at WalmartSep 08 13:20
Diablo-D3I dont shop at walmartSep 08 13:20
DaemonFCyou just get to pay for the rest in taxes because they pay their employees starvation wagesSep 08 13:20
Diablo-D3and btwSep 08 13:20
Diablo-D3I do think we need to increase minimum wageSep 08 13:20
Diablo-D3I don't care if people get fired over it... its not the governments job to cater to dicks.Sep 08 13:20
DaemonFCBTW, They *did* used to pass out pamphlets on how to apply for public food, housing, and health benefitsSep 08 13:21
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: they shouldSep 08 13:21
DaemonFCtil they got called on itSep 08 13:21
Diablo-D3have you ever seen walmart's shit?Sep 08 13:21
Diablo-D3its horrinleSep 08 13:21
Diablo-D3they have no actual health care benefitsSep 08 13:21
DaemonFCI knowSep 08 13:21
DaemonFCthere's two people in the store that have health insuranceSep 08 13:21
Diablo-D3the walmart plan is basically walmart gets paid $15k everytime an employee diesSep 08 13:21
DaemonFCthe store manager, and the co managerSep 08 13:22
DaemonFCthree people if it's a real big store and has two co managersSep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3if you make a claim, its automatically deniedSep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3they sometimes actually get paid _below_ minimum wageSep 08 13:22
DaemonFCand there's about 300-500 people working thereSep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3and not only thatSep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3get this partSep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3walmart has no employeesSep 08 13:22
DaemonFCthe rest of them, including assistant managers, get something "called" health insuranceSep 08 13:22
DaemonFCits phoneySep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3see above statementSep 08 13:22
Diablo-D3walmart sidesteps a lot of laws by calling them partnersSep 08 13:23
Diablo-D3walmart should be forced out of business, its bad for the economySep 08 13:23
DaemonFCthe "associate" job title is mostly for moraleSep 08 13:23
Diablo-D3nopeSep 08 13:23
Diablo-D3its for legal reasonsSep 08 13:23
DaemonFCno it's notSep 08 13:23
Diablo-D3yup, it isSep 08 13:23
DaemonFCthe law says you're an hourly employeeSep 08 13:24
Diablo-D3not unless the law makes youSep 08 13:24
DaemonFCthey can call you whatever they likeSep 08 13:24
DaemonFCit's the same thingSep 08 13:24
Diablo-D3several states have pending litigation against walmart over thisSep 08 13:24
Diablo-D3walmart needs to be forced out of businessSep 08 13:24
DaemonFCthey still have to pay unemployment tax on you, social security tax on you, etc.Sep 08 13:24
Diablo-D3they are not efficientSep 08 13:24
Diablo-D3companies that are not efficient have no right to existSep 08 13:24
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, I lost every unemployment case I've been sent to fight and I did it on purposeSep 08 13:25
DaemonFCI always did hate that place and how it made me feel every daySep 08 13:25
Diablo-D3hehSep 08 13:25
Diablo-D3what _do_ you do for a living?Sep 08 13:25
DaemonFCthingsSep 08 13:26
Diablo-D3either way, I no longer care about people anymore, I only care about the efficiency of the systemSep 08 13:27
Diablo-D3people who do not have sufficient healthcare are efficientSep 08 13:27
Diablo-D3erSep 08 13:27
Diablo-D3people who do not have sufficient healthcare are not efficientSep 08 13:27
DaemonFCI'm not working for them, that's good enough for meSep 08 13:27
Diablo-D3people who die are not efficientSep 08 13:27
Diablo-D3people who do not work 100% 100% of the time are not efficientSep 08 13:27
Diablo-D3any time a worker has to take even 5 minutes out of their day to deal with bullshit, its 5 minutes they're not working.Sep 08 13:27
DaemonFCI was working at Rent-A-Center by the time Vista started rolling outSep 08 13:28
DaemonFCI don't have anything polite to say about itSep 08 13:28
Diablo-D3I'm ultimately for obamacare because its one less distraction for a workerSep 08 13:28
DaemonFCVista singlehandedly destroyed our computer rental demandSep 08 13:29
DaemonFCpeople would rent them, put up with Vista for maybe an entire week or two and send it backSep 08 13:29
Diablo-D3hahSep 08 13:30
Diablo-D3this is why I love linuxSep 08 13:30
Diablo-D3takes almost no time to reimage a systemSep 08 13:30
Diablo-D3same way with macs, actuallySep 08 13:30
DaemonFCthe store manager there blacklisted a guy who formatted over Vista with UbuntuSep 08 13:31
DaemonFCtold me not to rent any more systems to himSep 08 13:31
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: btw, I assume rentacenter doesnt have a bulk license key thingSep 08 13:31
DaemonFCwe couldn't rent it out for almost a week after he brought it back because we didn't have a Vista recovery DVD for itSep 08 13:31
Diablo-D3wtfSep 08 13:31
Diablo-D3why the fuck is rentacenter even renting computersSep 08 13:31
Diablo-D3thats beyond stupidSep 08 13:32
DaemonFCno, they get Dell, HP, Sony, Compaq, etc.Sep 08 13:32
Diablo-D3anything that doesnt have a giant "reset to factory default" button cant be rentedSep 08 13:32
DaemonFCif the system costs $500, they'll ultimately make about $4,000-$5,000 off itSep 08 13:32
Diablo-D3yeah I knowSep 08 13:32
Diablo-D3those "rent to buy" deals those kind of places have usually end up paying 2-3x more for itSep 08 13:33
DaemonFCthey rent things out to stupid hicks with no credit who can't figure out how bad they're being screwedSep 08 13:33
Diablo-D3I used to think banks who had really shitty APRs were evilSep 08 13:33
Diablo-D3then I realized there were worse people in the worldSep 08 13:33
DaemonFCWell who can't save up $500 for a computer?Sep 08 13:34
DaemonFCif you can't save $500 for a computer, you don't need oneSep 08 13:34
Diablo-D3yeah exactlySep 08 13:34
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schestowitzbblSep 08 13:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] New install of Ubuntu. Added my HP Officejet 6310 and my Genicom microlaser 210 with zero effort. No driver installs. Printing in <5 mins.Sep 08 13:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Hmm, further to my last message. Where is good in the UK for buying laser toner? Specifically for the Genicom/Compuprint Pagemaster 210N?Sep 08 13:55
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tacone1 schestowitz here ?Sep 08 14:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] || Coitada...Sep 08 14:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] mousetrap caught a mouse! and just broke its leg. @arkadyrose is now looking up her small animal vet book ...Sep 08 14:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] all domestic dogs descend from china and wolves were first domesticated for meat 08 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Back to blogging...Sep 08 15:10
trmancobblSep 08 15:24
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] How Nathan Myhrvold's patent protection racket works in practice: Slashdot submission 08 16:10
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twitter1wow, M$ actually rewrote something.  SMB2 for Vista and Windows 7 has a unique, remote BSoD flaw, 08 16:34
trmancoyesSep 08 16:34
twitter1Way to go!Sep 08 16:34
trmancoyesSep 08 16:36
trmancoremote windows crashSep 08 16:36
trmancohow about thatSep 08 16:36
trmancoand there is no patch availableSep 08 16:36
trmanco...Sep 08 16:36
trmancoonly a workaroundSep 08 16:36
MinceRwindblows fanboys downplaying the vulnerability in 3, 2, 1...Sep 08 16:36
twitter1Is this a case of malice or incompetence?  My M$ Senses (TM) tell me that they rewrote it to screw Samba.  It's nice of them to blow them selves up in any case.  Let's label it "both"Sep 08 16:36
trmancosamba works with vistaSep 08 16:37
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twitter1thanks to EU interventionSep 08 16:37
twitter1work around, disable third rate file sharing protocolSep 08 16:37
trmancoyesSep 08 16:37
MinceRdisable third-rate operating systemSep 08 16:37
Diablo-D3disable your momSep 08 16:37
trmancoah, just remove the hole os alreadySep 08 16:37
twitter1replace OSSep 08 16:37
trmancojust the bios will be fineSep 08 16:38
twitter1my mom is now a gnu/linux userSep 08 16:38
trmancowindows users have to learn the basics first :-PSep 08 16:38
trmancogreat :DSep 08 16:38
twitter1yesSep 08 16:38
twitter1a cute little netbook did the trickSep 08 16:39
twitter1and skype.Sep 08 16:39
twitter1She saw my wife using it and had to have it.  It was that easy.Sep 08 16:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft's latest Linux lies: 08 16:48
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*satipera_ (i=5c1ca5e5@gateway/web/freenode/x-qrfjrukunjxfzcjb) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 16:54
satipera_Well you can blame me for (re)starting the  Boycott Novell Wikipedia page I have left a mere stub which I am sure others will add to.Sep 08 16:56
wallclimberA very dear friend's Windows computer decided to throw up a notice that the version of XP installed was not legitimate, even though it came on the computer (many years ago) and was definitely legit.  The problem ended up being some sort of spyware (besides the obvious Microsoft spyware). Got it cleaned up, but withing a very short time Windows suddenly decided not to recognize the sound card anymore.Sep 08 16:57
wallclimberNow, my friend has asked for Ubuntu many times, and is MORE than ready to leave Windows behind.  I've helped him prepare for the change as much as I can (he uses FF and OO and VLC and other alternatives to MS products). But time and time again we've tried to get some version of Linux installed on that stupid computer and have failed.  In fact, it's the only computer I've worked with that I can't seem to get unWindowfied (yes, I juSep 08 16:57
wallclimberst made that word up)Sep 08 16:57
twitter1I'm sure your vandalism will eaily be reverted, satipera.  Thanks for the non contribution.Sep 08 16:58
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wallclimberUbuntu Live CD works on it, but installing is a messSep 08 16:58
twitter1Call your local LUG for help.Sep 08 16:59
wallclimberwe ended up putting windows back and hoping he can just get a new computer that's compatible soon...I'm feeling very defeatedSep 08 16:59
twitter1Yes, some hardware is like that.Sep 08 16:59
wallclimbermy local LUG meets WAY across townSep 08 17:00
wallclimberabout 45 minutes awaySep 08 17:00
twitter1Pay them.Sep 08 17:00
twitter1They will probably come to the same conclusion you have - the hardware is toxic - but they might be able to fix it and that would be cheaper than a new computer.Sep 08 17:00
twitter1less wasteful too.Sep 08 17:00
wallclimberwell, after much reading yesterday, i think the problem is the video cardSep 08 17:00
twitter1could beSep 08 17:01
twitter1bblSep 08 17:01
wallclimberit's ATI Radeon 9200 series, and it just doesn't workSep 08 17:01
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wallclimberI think I can get a card for him that will work in his older computer for about $50Sep 08 17:02
wallclimber(sorry, i feel like i just hijacked the conversation, and this isn't a tech-help forum...Sep 08 17:02
wallclimberbut the whole thing just made me sooooo frustrated :)Sep 08 17:03
wallclimber5 more hours out of my life given to a stupid windows machineSep 08 17:03
wallclimberok...i'll stop...need to get to workSep 08 17:04
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*satipera (i=5c1ca5e5@gateway/web/freenode/x-knvvdkzypplaaywh) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 17:04
satiperaWhen I (re)started the Boycott Novell Wikipedia page I had a report...Sep 08 17:05
satiperaThis article may not meet the general notability guideline. Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources about the topic. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged or deleted. This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.Sep 08 17:05
satiperaSo I am rather hoping that those of you who know more about Wokipedia than I do can save the stub.Sep 08 17:06
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schestowitzHeySep 08 17:08
_Hicham_hello senior schestowitzSep 08 17:13
schestowitzsatipera: thanks for thatSep 08 17:13
schestowitzhi, _Hicham_Sep 08 17:13
schestowitzDid you celeberate Labour Day in Morocco? :-pSep 08 17:14
satiperaschestowitz, I do not know much about linux but i like the philosophy, windows refugee trying to help without causing damage.Sep 08 17:16
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schestowitzIt's saved... Future looking brighter for Bletchley Park 08 17:18
schestowitzWT...?Sep 08 17:21
schestowitz 08 17:21
schestowitz 08 17:21
_Hicham_schestowitz : we do not celebrate labor day todaySep 08 17:21
schestowitzEx -Yahoo Exec Joins AOL 08 17:24
schestowitz_Hicham_: I'm shecked you don't celebrate a US holidaySep 08 17:25
schestowitz*shocked!  :-|Sep 08 17:25
_Hicham_schestowitz : we don't like the US much in hereSep 08 17:25
schestowitzWell, it could be worseSep 08 17:25
schestowitzLike in KoreaSep 08 17:26
_Hicham_the US helps Israel, which kills palestiniansSep 08 17:26
_Hicham_the US have humiliated Iraqi peopleSep 08 17:26
schestowitzMicrosoft SQL Server divulges passwords 08 17:26
schestowitzHole in Windows Vista and 7 allows remote reboot 08 17:26
schestowitzLOLSep 08 17:26
schestowitz_Hicham_: they say they protect the worldSep 08 17:27
_Hicham_they destroy the worldSep 08 17:32
_Hicham_humiliate peopleSep 08 17:32
_Hicham_kill innocentsSep 08 17:32
_Hicham_look to what they have done in IraqSep 08 17:32
_Hicham_they killed babesSep 08 17:32
_Hicham_and raped womenSep 08 17:32
_Hicham_tortured men in prisonsSep 08 17:33
_Hicham_is that what they call protection ?Sep 08 17:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I am tidying my office. Silica Gel packets. Keep or throw? :) (remembering of course 'DO NOT EAT')Sep 08 17:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Karmic Netbook Remixes: Kubuntu 1, Ubuntu 0: 08 17:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Making home made pancakes with Sophie to cheer her up after the nasty man took the bouncy castle away!Sep 08 17:47
schestowitz 08 18:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Na bijna 10 lange jaren, ben ik eindelijk weer verliefd. Ben een leuke kerel op tegengekomen. Het klikte meteen.Sep 08 18:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Het is zo lekker om eindelijk weer eens sex te hebben en begeerd te worden. Ik was helemaal vergeten hoe dat voelde.Sep 08 18:05
trmancohehSep 08 18:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Verder heb ik mijzelf getrakteerd op twee Linux tijdschriften: HUB's Linux Magazine en het Duitse Linux Intern.Sep 08 18:13
schestowitzVMFS-3, How Do I Despise Thee 08 18:33
schestowitzClassic: Matrix Desktop (21,181 views) < >Sep 08 18:34
schestowitzkde4 does new slideshows as wallpaper, one for each screen independently if need be.Sep 08 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] My new desktop (screenshot): 08 18:37
schestowitzBPI are liars. Music industry cooks UK government's piracy stats < >Sep 08 18:40
*schestowitz removes ban on *!* 08 18:46
*schestowitz removes ban on *!* 08 18:46
schestowitz8 Useful and Interesting Bash Prompts < >Sep 08 18:50
schestowitzMore kde4 goodnessSep 08 18:50
schestowitz 08 18:51
schestowitzI gave it a shot yesterday..Sep 08 18:51
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trmancohow was it?Sep 08 18:54
schestowitzHey, wallclimberSep 08 18:56
schestowitzGood job with that friend..Sep 08 18:56
schestowitzSome rare hardware can be hostileSep 08 18:56
wallclimberyeah, it was a frustrating daySep 08 18:56
schestowitzI've never met such hardware, but still, I occasionally heard aboutSep 08 18:56
schestowitzitSep 08 18:57
schestowitzaSep 08 18:57
schestowitzA friend has some advanced nvidia GPU and he reported some difficulties with Ubuntu because of that.Sep 08 18:57
wallclimberi guess, if a person installs stuff for other people often enough, a bad experience is bound to happen eventuallySep 08 18:57
wallclimberthis was an ATI cardSep 08 18:57
schestowitzIt was a real LABOUR day, eh?Sep 08 18:57
schestowitzATI. YuckSep 08 18:57
schestowitzAt least it has FOSS driversSep 08 18:58
schestowitzSome 3d, tooSep 08 18:58
wallclimberhe he, very funny roy :)Sep 08 18:58
schestowitzLabour day makes me think of people sweating down the browSep 08 18:58
wallclimberno, it had no drivers at allSep 08 18:58
schestowitzLike SLave DaySep 08 18:58
schestowitzLabour can be slavery to someSep 08 18:58
schestowitz"Wage slavery"Sep 08 18:58
schestowitzKeyboards rather than chainsSep 08 18:58
wallclimberi pulled it from the case and tried just using the onboard video, butSep 08 18:58
wallclimberit was soooo bad it was unusableSep 08 18:58
schestowitzI really enjoys my jobs doing GPL stuff, thoughSep 08 18:59
schestowitz*enjoyedSep 08 18:59
schestowitztrmanco and I have just reported a bug in an alpha of konversationSep 08 18:59
wallclimberi usually do, but this friend is a very dear one, and i soooo hoped to be able to dazzle him with my amazing tech skills - lolSep 08 18:59
schestowitzIt's a really good programSep 08 18:59
trmancookSep 08 19:00
schestowitzToday I put a drawing of mine from when I was like 7 as background picture in konversationSep 08 19:00
schestowitz 08 19:00
wallclimberi ended up pulling the new kubuntu drive off and putting the ubuntu drive back so i could work todaySep 08 19:00
schestowitzMight be useful to you, wallclimberSep 08 19:00
schestowitzCause you blog on a service hosted)Sep 08 19:00
schestowitz*(hosted)Sep 08 19:01
wallclimber (i'm looking at it now)Sep 08 19:01
*schestowitz sees it has just begun raining. Good thing schestowitz left in the morningSep 08 19:02
wallclimberthat looks nice, i'm going to try it outSep 08 19:03
schestowitzwallclimber: 08 19:03
schestowitzSee what has snuck into the screenshot. omg! poniesSep 08 19:03
schestowitzGa. pastor shot and killed in botched drug raid 08 19:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Xbox 360 'least reliable' console 08 19:03
wallclimberlol ponies!!Sep 08 19:04
schestowitzAshcroft may be held liable for those wrongfully detained after 9/11 < >Sep 08 19:05's ringing, must get back to work...Sep 08 19:05
schestowitzwallclimber: still there hanging... waiting for me to do s/t w/ itSep 08 19:05
schestowitzSymantec Goes Under the Hood of Waledac Botnet < >Sep 08 19:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] _Goblin: Your tuft. no?Sep 08 19:08
*sebsebseb (n=sebastia@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 19:09
sebsebsebhiSep 08 19:09
trmancohelloSep 08 19:09
sebsebsebtrmanco: hiSep 08 19:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] _Goblin: also: Desktops & Notebooks: Commodore 64: A Look Back at a Geek's First PC < >Sep 08 19:09
*sebsebseb is now known as sebsebsebsebSep 08 19:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_Goblin: sorry, forgot the @ symbol. See previous items.Sep 08 19:10
*sebsebsebseb is now known as sebsebsebSep 08 19:11
schestowitzCrime expert backs calls for 'licence to compute' <,crime-expert-backs-calls-for-licence-to-compute.aspx >Sep 08 19:12
schestowitzHi, sebsebsebSep 08 19:12
sebsebsebschestowitz: Hi RoySep 08 19:12
schestowitzWeb licence.. show your Notron/AVG skillzSep 08 19:12
schestowitzI'd fail at it.Sep 08 19:12
sebsebsebschestowitz: what's this?Sep 08 19:12
schestowitzSee urlSep 08 19:13
schestowitzLawyers, families say 5 girls strip-searched at school < >Sep 08 19:13
schestowitzKeep it klassy... where are they going? Must be terror~1 girls.Sep 08 19:13
wallclimberit's funny, when my youngest son first started teaching me to build my own computers, he told me the first two essential things i needed to learn how to do, if i were to get involved with computer work, was to cuss and to drink beerSep 08 19:14
schestowitzSome girl loses a 100-dollar billSep 08 19:14
schestowitzThen stripping is justifiedSep 08 19:14
wallclimberi can cuss with creative flair...still can't drink beer thoSep 08 19:14
schestowitzwallclimber: sounds like the Linux Outlaws doctrineSep 08 19:15
schestowitzfabsSep 08 19:15
schestowitzI never curse the computerSep 08 19:15
schestowitzIt would have to do something annoyingSep 08 19:15
wallclimberso, what was your first computer?Sep 08 19:15
schestowitzA few times a year knode may crashSep 08 19:15
schestowitzNow, that's annoying as it would lead to some metadata not being there on the next run, but it's a rare occurenceSep 08 19:16
schestowitzwallclimber: me? maybe others can answer tooSep 08 19:16
wallclimberyes, i'd be interested in others saying too, most definitelySep 08 19:16
schestowitz286 with a CGA.. my dad bought it for me when I was 7Sep 08 19:16
schestowitzWhat about trmanco?Sep 08 19:17
schestowitzHe's the youngest here, I thinSep 08 19:17
schestowitz*thinkSep 08 19:17
schestowitzSOme people are born into Pentiums and stuff.Sep 08 19:17
trmancoan IBM [can't remember] with a P1Sep 08 19:17
schestowitzVerizon defends setting broadband measurement bar so low < >Sep 08 19:18
trmancoit was very limitedSep 08 19:18
trmancoI was about 8 years oldSep 08 19:18
schestowitzDoes anyone remember that p<something> who was top user at 08 19:18
schestowitzHe quit in angerSep 08 19:18
schestowitzSomething over the management changing thingsSep 08 19:18
wallclimberthe first one i built for myself was a VP6, dual PIII processor board, with 1GB ram, it was a joySep 08 19:18
schestowitzThat's history nowSep 08 19:18
schestowitzis BabyBoy still #1 user there?Sep 08 19:18
wallclimbermy son airbrushed blue flames on the case, i still have it, it still runsSep 08 19:18
*schestowitz does not have a son yet :-||Sep 08 19:19
wallclimbermy youngest is 38 years old :)Sep 08 19:19
trmanco:)Sep 08 19:19
schestowitz 08 19:19
wallclimberhe's an engineerSep 08 19:20
*proteus ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 19:20
schestowitzwallclimber: me too !!Sep 08 19:22
schestowitz(software) engineerSep 08 19:22
schestowitzPost-Vista Windows flaw creates Blue Screen riskSep 08 19:23
schestowitz    * Track this topicSep 08 19:23
schestowitz    * Print storySep 08 19:23
schestowitz    * Post commentSep 08 19:23
schestowitzBSOD itSep 08 19:23
schestowitzPost-Vista Windows flaw creates Blue Screen riskSep 08 19:23
schestowitz    * Track this topicSep 08 19:23
schestowitz    * Print storySep 08 19:23
schestowitz    * Post commentSep 08 19:23
schestowitzBSOD itSep 08 19:24
schestowitzDratSep 08 19:24
schestowitzKonv doesn't paste wellSep 08 19:24
schestowitz 08 19:24
schestowitzHow long before there's a downloadable "Nuke" tool?Sep 08 19:24
sebsebsebschestowitz: copy and paste  isn't a problem for me in KonversationSep 08 19:24
schestowitzOne that you can aim at someone with an ip address to crasht he PC?Sep 08 19:24
sebsebsebschestowitz: it's like other appsSep 08 19:24
schestowitzsebsebseb: no, it's just different from xchatSep 08 19:24
sebsebsebhow so?Sep 08 19:24
schestowitzxhcat stores newlines before postingSep 08 19:25
schestowitzIt shows them as a symbolSep 08 19:25
schestowitzkonv just fires away line by lineSep 08 19:25
sebsebseboh I am not sure what any of that meansSep 08 19:25
schestowitzsebsebseb:Sep 08 19:25
schestowitz <schestowitz>   -------  Comment #1 From  Eike Hein   2009-08-18 21:37:40   -------Sep 08 19:25
schestowitz[18:55] <schestowitz> This is a known problem (and the main reason it still carries the "alpha"lSep 08 19:25
schestowitz[18:55] <schestowitz> label) that will be resolved before the 1.2 release.Sep 08 19:25
schestowitz[18:55] <schestowitz> *** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 192499 ***Sep 08 19:25
schestowitz[18:55] <schestowitz> ------- Comment #2 From Roy Schestowitz 2009-09-08 19:03:48 -------Sep 08 19:25
schestowitz[18:55] <schestowitz> Confirmed by two more users here. Alpha 6 of 1.2 (Kubuntu 9.10 alpha 5).Sep 08 19:25
schestowitz 08 19:25
sebsebsebah okSep 08 19:25
schestowitzSeparate issueSep 08 19:25
schestowitzNot a big dealSep 08 19:26
schestowitzI highlight text until it's resolved (final version)Sep 08 19:26
schestowitz "Mozilla won't release the next significant upgrade of Firefox until the final quarter of 2010."Sep 08 19:26
sebsebsebohSep 08 19:27
sebsebsebwell  that's a bit sucky thenSep 08 19:27
schestowitzIWF chief: 'No room for moral agendas' 08 19:27
sebsebsebFirefox 4.0 thenSep 08 19:27
schestowitzI use Firefox as secondary nowSep 08 19:27
schestowitzFor plguins mostlySep 08 19:27
schestowitzAnd for bloggingSep 08 19:27
sebsebsebopensource/freesoftware for the popular  projects tend to have fast development,  but if  Firefox 4.0 is coming out  in the final quarter of 2010, well that's not exactly fast development and  releasesSep 08 19:28
schestowitzFoxconn working on 'sub-£100' ARM-based Linux netbooks 08 19:28
schestowitzw00tSep 08 19:28
sebsebsebschestowitz: well it's still the one we should be promoting and converting people to I think,  because it's the one with most market share after IESep 08 19:28
schestowitz'swing voters' of Firefox would not go back to ieSep 08 19:29
sebsebsebthere are still some web developers that only make for IE,  and  if  Firefox has a big enough market share, they will start making for Firefox as well I guessSep 08 19:29
schestowitzEnlightened users left msie for goodSep 08 19:29
sebsebsebalso  if your going around on the web using  Epiphany or Galeon  or  other less known browsers,   how many web developers that actsaully bother  checking their website statistics,  know about them, and know which rendering engine they useSep 08 19:30
sebsebsebreally the most used rendering engine dictates, what happens to the webSep 08 19:31
schestowitzIs it possible to change ui font size in firefox?Sep 08 19:31
sebsebsebwhich unfortunatly at the moment is still  MSHTML/Trident,  because of that horrible IE browserSep 08 19:31
schestowitzI could do this in Firefox 1Sep 08 19:31
sebsebsebschestowitz: I don't know,   maybe  a setting some where for it or  in about:config or an add onSep 08 19:33
sebsebsebwhen you said plugins earlier did you mean addons/extensions ?Sep 08 19:34
schestowitzYeah, but that's trickySep 08 19:34
schestowitzYes, extensionsSep 08 19:34
schestowitzUsed to be called other things, iircSep 08 19:34
schestowitzThen they unified themes and plguinsSep 08 19:34
sebsebsebindeed  Firefox has many  addons/extensions and  a lot of them are pretty goodSep 08 19:34
schestowitzOr something like thatSep 08 19:34
schestowitzNow they have separate menus, tooSep 08 19:34
sebsebsebhowever even so I tend to run Firefox  these days without any add ons,  and well  that's been quite a while nowSep 08 19:34
schestowitzI think it used to be unifiedSep 08 19:35
schestowitzI still hold on to some XUL extensions from Firefox 0.9Sep 08 19:35
schestowitzANyway, the fonts are too large in the UISep 08 19:35
sebsebsebaltough  there are like addons, so you  know which countrey a website is hosted in for example, and well that's niceSep 08 19:35
schestowitzMaybe some GTK settingSep 08 19:35
schestowitzI'll have a lookSep 08 19:35
schestowitzSame in ThunderbirdSep 08 19:35
sebsebsebmost of the websites I visit  are American it seemsSep 08 19:36
sebsebsebschestowitz: What kind of add ons do you use in Firefox?   and when not using Firefox what do you use?Sep 08 19:37
schestowitzThunderBrowseSep 08 19:38
sebsebsebWhat's that?Sep 08 19:38
schestowitzKDE tries to wrap GTK+Sep 08 19:38
schestowitzWhich it doesSep 08 19:38
sebsebsebmeaning?Sep 08 19:38
schestowitzBut it makes the fonts quite bigSep 08 19:38
schestowitzAnd makes it hard to change thisSep 08 19:38
sebsebseboh your using KDE  4 not GnomeSep 08 19:39
sebsebsebI use Konversation in Gnome :)Sep 08 19:39
sebsebsebschestowitz: keep it simple stupid, as the saying goes,  yep that's what Gnome is :)Sep 08 19:40
sebsebsebKDE is more bloated and suchSep 08 19:40
schestowitzNot sureSep 08 19:40
sebsebsebschestowitz: not sure about what?Sep 08 19:40
schestowitzkde4 is lighter than kde3 based on my experienceSep 08 19:40
schestowitzGNOME and kde3 were comparableSep 08 19:40
sebsebsebbloated I meant featuresSep 08 19:40
schestowitzSystem resources-wiseSep 08 19:41
schestowitzYes, got thatSep 08 19:41
schestowitzBloated for "features"..Sep 08 19:41
schestowitzDepends on levels of abstraction/complexitySep 08 19:41
schestowitzIt was improved in v4Sep 08 19:41
sebsebsebKDE 3  could look more like WindowsSep 08 19:41
sebsebsebby default or nearly default whatever  the distros are doingSep 08 19:41
schestowitzRookies need not bother with advanced optionsSep 08 19:41
sebsebsebmenu at the bottom that kind of thingSep 08 19:41
schestowitzBut the power is still hereSep 08 19:41
sebsebsebwhere as Gnome has it's top and bottom panals by defaultSep 08 19:41
trmancosebsebseb: move it the topSep 08 19:41
trmanco...Sep 08 19:41
trmancoor add two of themSep 08 19:42
schestowitzOr 8\Sep 08 19:42
trmancoyou are free to day what the hell you want with your desktopSep 08 19:42
schestowitzI used to have 6Sep 08 19:42
sebsebsebtrmanco: yepSep 08 19:42
schestowitz3 on each screenSep 08 19:42
sebsebseband I don't use KDE 4 as my GUI, since it doesn't look like KDE 3Sep 08 19:42
schestowitzTHat was in SuSESep 08 19:42
trmancojust because it looks like windows doesn't mean it's like windowsSep 08 19:42
sebsebseband it seems I would have to customize quite a few things, before I would like KDE 4 more and then maybe run it as my GUISep 08 19:42
schestowitztrmanco: by defaultSep 08 19:42
schestowitzkeyword/term "by default"Sep 08 19:42
schestowitzIt can be made to have OS X-like menuSep 08 19:43
trmancoyesSep 08 19:43
schestowitzAnd panels can be changedSep 08 19:43
sebsebsebschestowitz: KDE 3 seems more  nice by defaultSep 08 19:43
schestowitzI haven't tried lancelot yet !!Sep 08 19:43
sebsebsebwell depending on distroSep 08 19:43
sebsebsebKubuntu  KDE 3 yes that's  nice :)Sep 08 19:43
trmancoI actually started in gnome because it was different from windowsSep 08 19:43
sebsebsebKnoppix last time I tried it  with KDE 3 was yep niceSep 08 19:43
sebsebsebPCLinuxOS  2007  or whatever I did in a vm,  that   KDE 3 was not nice by defaultSep 08 19:43
trmancoI was so damn sick of that crap that I couldn't stand the looks anymoreSep 08 19:44
trmancoand because I had a little more experience with gnomeSep 08 19:44
schestowitz 08 19:44
schestowitz"Foxconn Technology plans to launch its first smartbooks next year, which are mini-laptops that use microprocessors from Arm Holdings normally found in smartphones."Sep 08 19:44
trmancobefore I made the change I only had a couple of hours of experience with kde, and it was v3Sep 08 19:45
sebsebsebschestowitz: I don't like the default   Xubuntu   XFCE set up either,   but then  I vm'd something,  and  I was like, wow this is one nice  default  XFCESep 08 19:45
sebsebsebI was thinking,  I didn't reolize  XFCE could be this niceSep 08 19:45
sebsebsebor something like thatSep 08 19:45
sebsebsebtrmanco: exactly  people that go Linux a lot of them,  want  something  that doesn't look like WindowsSep 08 19:46
wallclimbertrmanco: it's funny you'd say that about gnome.  coming from windows i found gnome very easy to use and didn't have a hard time changing from winSep 08 19:47
trmancoyes, that was my first impression tooSep 08 19:47
trmancowallclimber: what do you mean?Sep 08 19:47
sebsebsebGnome lacks  a background changer :(Sep 08 19:47
trmancoI didn't say anything bad about gnomeSep 08 19:47
wallclimberthe new kde looks very different to me, i'm looking forward to customizing itSep 08 19:47
sebsebsebKDE 3 has one, and  4  I think yeah if I remember correctlySep 08 19:47
sebsebsebrandom background changer, where it can change after a minute or soSep 08 19:48
sebsebsebtried to  get some program for this, but  didn't get far with thatSep 08 19:48
wallclimberwell, you said kde looked too much like windowsSep 08 19:48
sebsebsebGnome with a background changer built in would be :)Sep 08 19:48
wallclimberi found gnome to be a lot like windows, as far as learning to  use itSep 08 19:48
sebsebsebwallclimber: I found KDE 3  by default, to be similar to Windows, but more advancedSep 08 19:49
sebsebsebthe default look with the menu at the bottom is like Windows yesSep 08 19:49
wallclimberok, i understand :)Sep 08 19:49
trmancowallclimber: yes, it looks more like windows than gnome (defaults), but then gnome has gconf, something similar to the crap windows registrySep 08 19:49
sebsebsebwallclimber: Gnome is  nice and keep it simple stupid :)   and it does not look like Windows  :DSep 08 19:49
trmancoyes, you are also right that the internals of gnome seem like windowsSep 08 19:50
sebsebsebunless you theme it to look like Windows of courseSep 08 19:50
schestowitzsebsebseb: yes, bg changer for gnome is one I yearned for as wellSep 08 19:50
sebsebseboh there's some vm,  which is very Windows likeSep 08 19:50
schestowitzI wrote about this back when using UBuntu 4.10 at workSep 08 19:50
trmancosebsebseb: it's KISS nowSep 08 19:50
trmancowait until 3Sep 08 19:50
sebsebsebvm  I meant wmSep 08 19:50
schestowitzThey STILL don't have thatSep 08 19:50
*trmanco bloat awaySep 08 19:50
wallclimberi never ever again want anything that looks like windowsSep 08 19:50
schestowitzHow come we don't say what WINDOWS looks like?Sep 08 19:51
sebsebsebschestowitz: yeah surely it woudn't be that hard for the Gnome devs, to program one in?Sep 08 19:51
schestowitzIs it assumed that Windows it the source of inpirationSep 08 19:51
schestowitz?Sep 08 19:51
schestowitzWhat about Apple's 'ripoff' of GUIs in other OSes?Sep 08 19:51
sebsebsebschestowitz: well they say that Windows 3.1 looked like Mac OS 9 or whatever it was at the timeSep 08 19:51
schestowitzShould one also assume "A:" is a WIndows thing?Sep 08 19:51
schestowitzit's notSep 08 19:51
sebsebseband  the OS 9 or whatever GUI like something elseSep 08 19:51
sebsebsebor whatever they saySep 08 19:51
schestowitzMicroosft just poplularises many thingsSep 08 19:51
schestowitzSame for Apple and Dock... not their inventionSep 08 19:51
schestowitzThey patened a *GOSH* Focus in DockSep 08 19:52
schestowitzYeah... like no-one could figure THAT outSep 08 19:52
wallclimberwindows looks like everybody's grandkids - lol - every windows computer that i've had to clean up has had giant pictures of people's grandkids as wallpaper and screensavers...if i never see another giant baby picture it'll be too soonSep 08 19:52
schestowitzi'll patent the zoom OUT function on the menuSep 08 19:52
schestowitzNot that it's usefulSep 08 19:52
schestowitzBut it's an INNOVA~1Sep 08 19:52
schestowitzMine mine mine !!Sep 08 19:52
sebsebsebwallclimber: yep  Windows and OS X aimed at the average consumer,  in this context, the types of people that are going to put  family photos and stuff like that, as their desktop backgroundSep 08 19:53
wallclimberthe rest of it just looks institutional, like a prisonSep 08 19:53
schestowitz"average consumer,..."Sep 08 19:53
schestowitzSounds like an adSep 08 19:53
schestowitzOr marketing peopleSep 08 19:53
schestowitz"average consumer, "Sep 08 19:53
sebsebsebschestowitz: hehSep 08 19:53
schestowitz"Unwashed masses"Sep 08 19:53
wallclimberexcept for the stupid search dog in xp...i have killed many of those in spite of the protests of its ownersSep 08 19:54
sebsebsebschestowitz: well normally when I say that  and am talking computers,   I mean computer ignorantsSep 08 19:54
wallclimberhate the dogSep 08 19:54
schestowitzLet the average "Consumer" consume the OS witha  strawSep 08 19:54
schestowitzWould they like a napkin witn that ?/Sep 08 19:54
schestowitz"Consumer" implied producersSep 08 19:55
schestowitzNo peersSep 08 19:55
wallclimberi hate the term "consumer" - i've never eaten softwareSep 08 19:55
schestowitzAs if, 'the people' versus 'the authority"Sep 08 19:55
schestowitzFree software is differentSep 08 19:55
wallclimberthe cds hurt my teethSep 08 19:55
schestowitzWe speak to developers, e.g. in kde.orgSep 08 19:55
schestowitzIn Microsoft, decisions come from abiveSep 08 19:55
schestowitzI.e. bossesSep 08 19:55
schestowitzNot usersSep 08 19:55
schestowitzBosses include MPAA and RIAASep 08 19:55
sebsebsebschestowitz: yeah that sounds basically right,  "average computer consumer"   tends to =  computer ignorant,    the ones that buy  what the companies give them,  so that's  Windows or   Mac OS X maybe,  Microsoft Office etc,   and then they never really think twice about it,  they just use itSep 08 19:55
schestowitzE.g. DRM antuifeturesSep 08 19:55
schestowitz*antifeaturesSep 08 19:55
wallclimberahhh mob bosses!Sep 08 19:55
wallclimber:)Sep 08 19:56
schestowitzRoy loves consuming the PCSep 08 19:56
schestowitzIt never endsSep 08 19:56
wallclimberwell, the office is deterirating into chaos here...i better go fire someone lol take care everyoneSep 08 19:56
schestowitzThe only consumption is that of electricity reallySep 08 19:56
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 08 19:57
schestowitzANd other transmissions from wires like EthernetSep 08 19:57
sebsebsebwell not everyone is into computers, but they do matter, and they do pretty much control the world,  and that's been years nowSep 08 19:57
schestowitzThey lose some controlSep 08 19:57
schestowitzSee newspapersSep 08 19:57
schestowitzLike the Murdoch monopoliesSep 08 19:57
schestowitzNever say neverSep 08 19:57
schestowitzThey feel the painSep 08 19:57
schestowitzThey want ACTA and stuff nowSep 08 19:57
schestowitzCause they lose their status quoSep 08 19:58
schestowitzInternet empowers opposition and brings it togetherSep 08 19:58
sebsebsebit's ashame that most computer users  aren't  interested in them enough,   resulting in them being pretty ignorant at them, to the extent where  their computer is probably not secure enoughSep 08 19:59
sebsebseboh and anti virus companies and that, take advantage of itSep 08 19:59
schestowitzCrackers tooSep 08 19:59
sebsebsebrather than actsually tell people how they can  keep  Windows  (or maybe other OS's even as well,)  rather secureSep 08 19:59
sebsebsebin fact if you know what your doing,  you can keep Windows secure enough,  without needing an antivirus or antispywareSep 08 20:00
sebsebsebschestowitz: botnets etc yeahSep 08 20:01
sebsebsebschestowitz: I think a lot of people see a computer as a consumer device,   that just works,  untill  it doesn't anymore,   and that's also an issue.   Computers like cars are meant to be looked after a bit.   They aren't like a TV, where it just works, untill the hardaware fails.Sep 08 20:02
sebsebsebwell this is obvious knowledge to us, but not them, which is the problemSep 08 20:03
sebsebsebschestowitz: What was that about Murdoch?Sep 08 20:04
schestowitzThey don't view it that waySep 08 20:07
schestowitzPeople that I speak to anywaySep 08 20:07
schestowitzThey don't know what an OS itSep 08 20:07
schestowitz*isSep 08 20:07
schestowitzThey just assume Windows is part of each computersSep 08 20:07
schestowitzBecause Microsoft trains them to think that waySep 08 20:07
schestowitzThis is why Microsoft goes to great lengths to forbig Linux from being displayed at sotre floorsSep 08 20:07
schestowitzKeep the public ignorantr about choicesSep 08 20:08
schestowitzThey'll choose between hardware, that's itSep 08 20:08
schestowitzThe illusion of choiceSep 08 20:08
schestowitzJust Dell vs HP vs whoeverSep 08 20:08
schestowitzAnd Windows being unquestionable a 'choice'Sep 08 20:08
sebsebsebschestowitz: true a lot of people don't know what an OS is,   and they might ask something like,  What would you rather have a PC or a Mac?Sep 08 20:11
sebsebsebthinking PC = WindowsSep 08 20:11
sebsebsebMac =  whatever they runSep 08 20:11
schestowitzPC is another deceptionSep 08 20:11
sebsebsebnot reolizing there's something called Linux, which will run on bothSep 08 20:11
schestowitzAs if <not Mac>=WIndowsSep 08 20:11
schestowitzAnd people don't know what dual-boot isSep 08 20:11
sebsebsebyep and in the shopsSep 08 20:12
schestowitzMicrosoft relies a lot on igrance, not just racketeeringSep 08 20:12
sebsebsebPC GamesSep 08 20:12
sebsebseb,but really they mean Windows gamesSep 08 20:12
schestowitzLinux runs WIndows games tooSep 08 20:12
schestowitzWindows does not run Linux gamesSep 08 20:12
sebsebsebyep in WineSep 08 20:12
sebsebsebApple rely on ignorance toSep 08 20:13
sebsebsebthey talk about PC's having virusesSep 08 20:13
sebsebsebfor exampleSep 08 20:13
sebsebsebthey might mention Windows in  marketting, but of course they won't LinuxSep 08 20:14
sebsebsebor BSD etcSep 08 20:14
sebsebseband loads of people think Mac OS X is so great, or  Macs as in the hardware and software, but what they don't know is that  Mac OS X uses a lot of opensource/freesoftware   and the Mac hardware is really pretty similar to a PC,   espeesilly now with Intel  proccessorsSep 08 20:16
sebsebsebreally really a Mac is a PC?  just a differnet typeSep 08 20:16
sebsebsebwell really aboveSep 08 20:16
schestowitzOpen Source but no Open Mind < >Sep 08 20:17
schestowitzYes, Macs are PCsSep 08 20:17
schestowitzBut with names and logos for elitistsSep 08 20:17
schestowitzThey pay more, they feel like they are worth moreSep 08 20:17
sebsebsebwell people that don't computers that well, buy them as well these days, to get away from the Windows viruses for exampleSep 08 20:18
sebsebsebthat don't know computers that well aboveSep 08 20:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @cenourinha: Alguém tem um fato de Tux? Quero ir a uma Windows 7 Launch Party... || LOOOLSep 08 20:19
MinceRmacs are shoddy pcsSep 08 20:20
MinceRwith a shoddy osSep 08 20:20
MinceRfor people with shoddy mindsSep 08 20:20
MinceR"I guess it's never too early to introduce a major fire hazard into your home..."Sep 08 20:21
schestowitzTurns out other people use this too :-) : 08 20:28
schestowitzMinceR: let's not exaggerateSep 08 20:28
schestowitzMac hardware is not the worstSep 08 20:28
MinceRi didn't say it was the worstSep 08 20:28
schestowitzBenchmarks say it's mediocaeSep 08 20:29
MinceRit's shoddy.Sep 08 20:29
schestowitzError-prineSep 08 20:29
schestowitz*proneSep 08 20:29
schestowitzMore than many othersSep 08 20:29
MinceRthey add all sorts of "innovations" which then proceed to break in a bad way.Sep 08 20:29
MinceRlike the "MagSafe" connector.Sep 08 20:29
schestowitzAs to the software that's saddled to this Intel (chairty-killing monopolist) hardware, it's Free BSD with a reuse and rehashed themeSep 08 20:29
MinceRbtw the quote was from Postal2. :>Sep 08 20:29
schestowitzThey don't even use zfs anymor!!Sep 08 20:29
schestowitzAnd Linux already has btrfsSep 08 20:29
schestowitz"better fs'Sep 08 20:30
MinceRyeah, i was going to say "which is btr"Sep 08 20:30
schestowitzApple claims to have innovated icon zoomSep 08 20:30
MinceRwhich is a misfeatureSep 08 20:30
schestowitzThey sure (SURE SURE) are too busy innovatingSep 08 20:30
MinceRyou can't tell the area you need to click ahead of timeSep 08 20:30
schestowitzAnd many regular customer nodSep 08 20:30
MinceRthat's all it doesSep 08 20:30
schestowitz*mersSep 08 20:30
MinceRcrApple, the "masters" of "usability"Sep 08 20:31
MinceRthey don't know anything about usabilitySep 08 20:31
schestowitzWhen I last used it the button missed some buttonsSep 08 20:31
schestowitzActually both in OS 9 and 10Sep 08 20:31
schestowitzThey have crippled miceSep 08 20:31
MinceRthat tooSep 08 20:31
schestowitzThey could use a cluestickSep 08 20:31
MinceRuseless gimmicks all the waySep 08 20:31
MinceRno, their customers could use a cluestickSep 08 20:31
schestowitzI tried to use FirefoxSep 08 20:31
schestowitzBut many essentials were castratedSep 08 20:32
MinceRwhat crApple does works for them because there are more than enough idiots who buy that crapSep 08 20:32
schestowitzThe PC was well designed thoughSep 08 20:32
schestowitzthe Apple _PC_ that isSep 08 20:32
schestowitzNice designers they haveSep 08 20:32
MinceRwhen?Sep 08 20:32
schestowitzNice-looking icons and allSep 08 20:32
MinceRwhat was well designed about it?Sep 08 20:32
schestowitzLifestyle..Sep 08 20:32
schestowitzDevelopment -- not so muchSep 08 20:32
MinceR(remember, not only the exterior of the case matters.)Sep 08 20:32
schestowitzMinceR: it's kind of elegantSep 08 20:32
schestowitzANd unique (the design)Sep 08 20:32
schestowitziPod family looks nice too (the casing)Sep 08 20:33
MinceRoh, i have a nice motivator about being uniqueSep 08 20:33
MinceRno, most hypePods look like shitSep 08 20:33
schestowitzThe components and peripherals may be mediocare, but nobody sees thoseSep 08 20:33
schestowitzApple is the company that masters pigs&lipstick basicallySep 08 20:33
MinceRif it had a chinese brand/logo on it, nobody would even notice themSep 08 20:33
schestowitzThey could pick Linux and put lots of lipstickSep 08 20:33
schestowitzThey would get more mileage tooSep 08 20:33
schestowitzBut they could exploit itSep 08 20:33
MinceR 08 20:34
schestowitzHad they build OS X on Linux they would have better virt, fs, security, etc.Sep 08 20:34
MinceRindeedSep 08 20:34
schestowitzInstead they nick what they needSep 08 20:34
schestowitzkhtml tooSep 08 20:34
MinceRbut then they'd have to share their stuff with people they think are uncoolSep 08 20:34
schestowitz"Ooooh. That's a nice engine you got there..."Sep 08 20:34
schestowitz"I can haz khtml??"Sep 08 20:34
MinceReven let other people -- people with actual clue, engineers -- into their design processSep 08 20:34
MinceRsteve "control freak" jobs can't have that, you seeSep 08 20:35
schestowitzThen they toss it into a proggy called after animal parksSep 08 20:35
schestowitzANd put as little as possible buttom-wiseSep 08 20:35
schestowitzChrome is similar in that regardSep 08 20:35
schestowitzThey use webkit tooSep 08 20:35
schestowitzLittle work around thatSep 08 20:35
schestowitzJust some simply UISep 08 20:35
schestowitzLet khtml do all the workSep 08 20:35
schestowitzIn Google's case too!!Sep 08 20:35
schestowitzChrome OS => browser => KDE koceSep 08 20:36
schestowitz*kodeSep 08 20:36
MinceRshould be Khrome and Khromium :>Sep 08 20:36
schestowitzApple ought to have comitted to khtmlSep 08 20:37
trmancoehSep 08 20:37
MinceRthey can't play nice with othersSep 08 20:37
schestowitzNot kind of nick it,, upset devs, and then "oh! oops"... sorry, we'll open-source our FORK nowSep 08 20:37
schestowitzTo consuse peopleSep 08 20:37
schestowitzAnd screw KDESep 08 20:37
MinceRthey don't belong in the IT industrySep 08 20:37
MinceRjust like m$Sep 08 20:37
schestowitzKDE could not implement some GUI stuff cause of Apple patentsSep 08 20:37
schestowitzSeigo wrote about itSep 08 20:37
trmancobut webkit has become superior to khtmlSep 08 20:38
schestowitzYesSep 08 20:38
schestowitzBUTSep 08 20:38
trmancoit's about 3 times as fastSep 08 20:38
schestowitzWhy didn't Apple justg give patches to khtml?Sep 08 20:38
trmancoyes butSep 08 20:38
trmancoforks are badSep 08 20:38
schestowitzThat would have helped, don't you think?Sep 08 20:38
MinceRit's easy to make something that's already complete better.Sep 08 20:38
trmancoyes indeedSep 08 20:38
trmancobut what else could we expect from them?Sep 08 20:39
schestowitzA lesson in how to bury using forksSep 08 20:39
trmancoMinceR: trueSep 08 20:39
MinceRcompare the macos "classic" features to those of osxSep 08 20:39
schestowitzDone by Apple, not innocent FOSS users who did not like khtml's directionSep 08 20:39
MinceRyou can see that the code monkeys at crApple can't even code a kernel worth shitSep 08 20:39
schestowitzThat would have been differentSep 08 20:39
schestowitzApple made a blobrowserSep 08 20:39
trmancoLOLSep 08 20:39
schestowitzAnd messed up with others in the processSep 08 20:39
schestowitzIMHOSep 08 20:39
trmancothey did the best thingSep 08 20:39
trmancouse a *nix based kernelSep 08 20:40
MinceRno, they didn'tSep 08 20:40
schestowitzThey didn't do wellSep 08 20:40
schestowitzThey picked BSDSep 08 20:40
schestowitzCause Linux is GPLSep 08 20:40
MinceRthe best thing would have been building a GNU/Linux distro with their own DE for noobsSep 08 20:40
trmancoor else they would just end up like windowsSep 08 20:40
schestowitzApple does not like thatSep 08 20:40
schestowitzFor iPhone tooSep 08 20:40
schestowitzJobs himself said no to GPLSep 08 20:40
MinceR(and playing nice with the community, including making that DE free software)Sep 08 20:40
schestowitzSo no LinuxSep 08 20:40
schestowitzHE wanted to rename itSep 08 20:40
trmancothey don't like open source...Sep 08 20:40
schestowitzMr. DarwinjobsSep 08 20:40
MinceRbut there are no engineers at crApple, so such a thing will never happenSep 08 20:40
trmancothat muchSep 08 20:40
schestowitzA lesson in devoslusionSep 08 20:40
trmancoeven though they offer darwin and cups and webkit, but stillSep 08 20:41
schestowitzYesSep 08 20:41
MinceRIT products will continue to suck as long as we allow failed lawyers and marketroids dictate itSep 08 20:41
schestowitzBut look in perspectiveSep 08 20:41
schestowitzThey needed CUPSSep 08 20:41
MinceRengineers should be put in chargeSep 08 20:41
schestowitzAnd webkit if mostly KDE workSep 08 20:41
schestowitzThey claim credit for it nowSep 08 20:41
schestowitzMinceR: Jobs is an engineersSep 08 20:41
schestowitzBut Wozniak more soSep 08 20:42
MinceRyeah, they had money to buy the company that produced CUPS -- real engineering genius there :>Sep 08 20:42
MinceRno, he isn'tSep 08 20:42
schestowitzDidn't Jobs come across as a rookie like Gates?Sep 08 20:42
schestowitzWho didn't do much programming?Sep 08 20:42
MinceRnobody who hacks up something like the Lisa and goes on along that line deserves to be called an engineerSep 08 20:42
schestowitzThe ethos and all said that programmers complained about Gates' rubbish codeSep 08 20:42
MinceRthey've betrayed engineering and reasonSep 08 20:42
schestowitzThey should realise he's from law schoolSep 08 20:42
schestowitzNot an apt programmerSep 08 20:42
trmancowhat was the problem with lisa?Sep 08 20:43
MinceRthat it was an idiot boxSep 08 20:43
trmancoI've seen some videos of itSep 08 20:43
MinceRit wasn't designed to be used, just like all the crApple products afterwardsSep 08 20:43
schestowitzNot sure...Sep 08 20:43
trmancothat's allSep 08 20:43
schestowitzBut did he code for Lisa?Sep 08 20:43
schestowitzDoubful.Sep 08 20:43
trmanconot my time...Sep 08 20:43
MinceRit was designed for idiots to drool over, and nothing moreSep 08 20:43
schestowitzBy that stage he was in amnagement AFAIKSep 08 20:43
schestowitzAnd Linus hardly writes LinusSep 08 20:43
schestowitzAnd Linus hardly writes LinuxSep 08 20:43
schestowitzNot anymore anywaySep 08 20:43
MinceRwhich means he dictated the directionSep 08 20:43
schestowitzRecently he said he wrote someSep 08 20:43
MinceRjust like ever sinceSep 08 20:43
trmancolinus wrote gitSep 08 20:44
schestowitzWell, didn't Gates dictate Vista direction?Sep 08 20:44
MinceRdunnoSep 08 20:44
schestowitzThat's what one BSD guy wroteSep 08 20:44
MinceRm$ isn't so dependent on one guySep 08 20:44
schestowitzMetz Report or somethingSep 08 20:44
MinceRm$ has more Borg doing the same thingSep 08 20:44
trmanco 08 20:45
schestowitzMinceR: will you install kde 4.3 when a distro comes out with it?Sep 08 20:45
MinceR:DSep 08 20:45
MinceRschestowitz: i willSep 08 20:45
MinceRi'll have to play around with mandriva, i just didn't have the timeSep 08 20:46
schestowitztrmanco: he licked something bad, it seemsSep 08 20:46
MinceR(had to hunt for hardware in my free time...)Sep 08 20:46
schestowitzMozilla picked a good logoSep 08 20:46
schestowitzMinceR: not yetSep 08 20:46
schestowitzI can mail you the CD :-pSep 08 20:46
schestowitz2009.1 kdeSep 08 20:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Firefox rejects your... 08 20:46
MinceR:)Sep 08 20:46
MinceRx86_64?Sep 08 20:46
schestowitzNopeSep 08 20:47
MinceR:/Sep 08 20:47
MinceRi figured it's time to make the switchSep 08 20:47
schestowitz64-bit.. I have old binaries that are 32-bitSep 08 20:47
schestowitzMinceR: yeah, like ipv6Sep 08 20:48
schestowitzor dnfSep 08 20:48
MinceRDNF :DSep 08 20:48
schestowitzDukeSep 08 20:48
MinceRyeah, i knowSep 08 20:48
schestowitzOr LinuxSep 08 20:48
schestowitzon 90% of desktopsSep 08 20:48
schestowitzWith a bunch of secrataries clinging on to Windows stillSep 08 20:48
schestowitzLike WordPerfectSep 08 20:48
twitterthat would be about right.  need a few BSD machinesSep 08 20:49
twittermaybe some hurdSep 08 20:49
schestowitzLicensing issues with LinusSep 08 20:49
schestowitz*nuxSep 08 20:49
twitterthat's why hurd would be niceSep 08 20:49
schestowitzIf only they could pick those drivers as gplv3Sep 08 20:49
schestowitzhurd could use a real hurdonSep 08 20:50
schestowitzLike Linux codeSep 08 20:50
schestowitzBut they don't mix wellSep 08 20:50
schestowitzhurd still makes progressSep 08 20:50
schestowitzon they post updatesSep 08 20:50
schestowitzm-kernelSep 08 20:50
schestowitzlike machSep 08 20:50
schestowitz100 Reasons Why Linux Kicks Ass 08 20:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme Embeddable Waves: The Google Wave WordPress Plugin 08 20:51
MinceRsome more reasons HURD would be nice include that it's a microkernel and that its developer team is uncorruptedSep 08 20:52
MinceRthe author forgets to mention that Linux also runs on supercomputersSep 08 20:52
twittersupercomputers, TVs, elevator controllers, cell phones, PDAs, desktops, netbooks, medical equipment, it's hard to think of something that does not use gnu/linux.Sep 08 20:53
twitterhotmail?Sep 08 20:54
MinceRthat was bsd, wasn't it?Sep 08 20:54
twittereven M$ campus uses gnu/linux in their wifi routers.Sep 08 20:54
twitterand their google searchesSep 08 20:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme Trapped Girls Updated Facebook Status Instead of Calling For Help 08 20:54
MinceRand in front of their webserversSep 08 20:54
trmancotwitter: microsoft uses linux on msn and live and bingoSep 08 20:55
twitterlolSep 08 20:55
twitterthe gnu/linux bongSep 08 20:55
trmancothey have akmaiSep 08 20:55
MinceR"Bingo" because success is random? :>Sep 08 20:55
trmancoor whateve that company is calledSep 08 20:55
MinceRakamaiSep 08 20:55
trmancoyes thatSep 08 20:55
twitterdefine success.Sep 08 20:55
trmancothey need linux to protect themselvesSep 08 20:55
MinceRfinding what you were looking forSep 08 20:55
trmanco...Sep 08 20:56
twitterbong looks nice, but it does not help you find thingsSep 08 20:56
MinceR(in the context of a web search engine)Sep 08 20:56
MinceRbut occasionally it might give you the thing you were looking for, right?Sep 08 20:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Who would Jesus twitterspam? No-one, @ revolutionrev. Spammer. #mocknblockSep 08 20:56
twittera Google person made fun of bong the other day, "if you Bing it, you will find it"Sep 08 20:56
twitterI tried to Bong what he was talking about .... total fail.Sep 08 20:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] World's first floating wind turbine opens in Norway: 08 20:57
trmanco...Sep 08 20:57
twitterI was unable to find two or three things he said Bing should be able to find if it was a decent search engine.  I think the things were M$ publications.Sep 08 20:57
trmancotry typing into bing microsoft sucksSep 08 20:57
trmancoI meanSep 08 20:57
trmanco"f*ck microsoft"Sep 08 20:58
twitteryeah, I saw that screen shot.  they had cleaned it up before I go there.Sep 08 20:58
trmancoah okSep 08 20:58
trmancoI don't use bing so can't say too much about itSep 08 20:59
schestowitzThey help the usersSep 08 20:59
trmancowhy bing if google?Sep 08 20:59
schestowitzProtection from 'unhealthy' contentSep 08 20:59
schestowitzMicrosoft decides what's healthySep 08 20:59
schestowitzOr  indexes more from 'approved' sitesSep 08 20:59
schestowitzRed Hat hypervisor tools to run on Windows only,1000000121,39742416,00.htmSep 08 21:00
twitterprobably, 08 21:00
twitterstill amusingSep 08 21:00
trmancoomgSep 08 21:01
trmancofailSep 08 21:01
trmancomy isp is advertising on that pageSep 08 21:01
schestowitzTrolls ntwork: Adventures In Linux – Or How I spent Labor Day! 08 21:01
schestowitzThey always are Linux hostileSep 08 21:01
trmancowhat a bunch of selloutsSep 08 21:01
schestowitzThey made some big anti-Linux postsSep 08 21:01
schestowitzTell Bong to crawl moreSep 08 21:02
schestowitzMicrosoft needs more of their pages in the indexSep 08 21:02
twittergood grief, M$ has some kind of comment next to every search result!  Big time damage controlSep 08 21:03
schestowitzhttp:// 08 21:03
trmancofor Marketing Purposes only (TM)Sep 08 21:03
schestowitzHa!Sep 08 21:03
trmancodangSep 08 21:03
trmancothose are my initialsSep 08 21:04
trmancoso I'm a trademark :DSep 08 21:04
schestowitz"Originally against this form of exhibitionism that blogging is, I started blogging in August 2005. I can’t remember what made me take that decision, maybe the self-imposed exile in another city than the one I was used with."Sep 08 21:04
schestowitzBeranger quitsSep 08 21:04
schestowitzBloggingSep 08 21:04
schestowitzNot Linux]Sep 08 21:04
schestowitzLess rants ...Sep 08 21:04
schestowitzI can live with thatSep 08 21:04
schestowitzBut he was fantastic at anti-patentsSep 08 21:05
schestowitzHmmmmm.......Sep 08 21:05
trmanco 08 21:05
twitteroh well.  Bong is not worth writing about because no one is going to use itSep 08 21:05
schestowitz"The Kubuntu Karmic Alpha 5 features KDE 4.3.1 and it feels very stable at first sight (it even hibernates from the LiveCD!), maybe I’ll install it."Sep 08 21:05
schestowitzCool\!Sep 08 21:05
schestowitzBeranger moves back to KDE!Sep 08 21:06
trmancooh BASICSep 08 21:06
trmancooldie daysSep 08 21:06
trmancopascal tooSep 08 21:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] This speech appears to advocate Republican hard work and self reliance I can't spot the Marxist propaganda. Can you?Sep 08 21:06
trmanco 08 21:06
schestowitz"No more part of the blogoscenti, I should probably do what in Romanian they call a blogoflender: someone who visits other people’s blogs and posts comments. Commenting on blogs and forums, this is something I will still do!"Sep 08 21:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Wore my Che Stallman T today. Bloke (who runs Ubuntu) in the Co-Op couldn't take his eyes off it. Wonder if he had trouble recognising him..Sep 08 21:08
schestowitz"In the costless world where they claim “freedom” matters, the only project that has a direction (even a wrong one!) is KDE4."Sep 08 21:09
*ThistleWeb ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:09
schestowitzwb, ThistleWebSep 08 21:09
ThistleWebtySep 08 21:09
ThistleWebfinally got round to posting my first blog post to the new urlSep 08 21:10
schestowitzHow To Install Google Chrome (Chromium) Extensions / Plugins In Ubuntu – Linux 08 21:10
schestowitztrmanco: yes, one among many on the subjectSep 08 21:10
schestowitzLinux is winning, Microsoft is winningSep 08 21:10
schestowitzIt's just inertia and people's lack of awareness that Windows is technically behind that kept them goingSep 08 21:11
ThistleWebthe site is still a work in progress though, until I get the blogroll and widgets sortedSep 08 21:11
schestowitzit all chnanges with the likes of FF and ApacheSep 08 21:11
schestowitzThistleWeb: when it's done, let me know so we can add the RSSSep 08 21:11
schestowitzChinese browsers are putting the heat on Internet Explorer 08 21:12
ThistleWebwhat do you mean add the rss? to where?Sep 08 21:12
schestowitz"Microsoft's Internet Explorer (IE) browser, which once dominated the Chinese Internet world with 96 percent of the market, has seen its share shrink to 57.8 percent due to the growing popularity of domestic brands."Sep 08 21:12
ThistleWebso it posts in here?Sep 08 21:12
schestowitzNet Propagation hardly does any China IPsSep 08 21:13
schestowitzThey are busy in the USSep 08 21:13
schestowitzPretending it's 'the world'Sep 08 21:13
schestowitzThistleWeb: no, I do Daily LinksSep 08 21:13
schestowitzGets about a thousand eyes on itSep 08 21:13
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:13
ThistleWebmy blog is only partly gonna be about linux / FOSS. Plenty of non related stuffSep 08 21:14
trmanco 08 21:14
trmanco 08 21:14
ThistleWebthough I am gonna have a category for Linux, so I guess you could use that feed if you wantSep 08 21:14
schestowitzThistleWeb: that's OKSep 08 21:14
trmanco 08 21:14
trmanco 08 21:14
schestowitzThistleWeb: yes, that's what I doSep 08 21:14
trmanco 08 21:15
ThistleWebthats cool, as long as you know it's not an all linux / FOSS blogSep 08 21:15
schestowitzcategory/linux/rss or whateverSep 08 21:15
trmancoall I see it remoteSep 08 21:15
ThistleWebit's 08 21:15
ThistleWebI'll add the category now, so you can add itSep 08 21:15
ThistleWebhang onSep 08 21:15
schestowitztrmanco: patch tuesday?Sep 08 21:15
schestowitz5 criticalSep 08 21:15
trmancoyesSep 08 21:16
*Logician (i=ad1ef898@gateway/web/freenode/x-nhnxpwxpiuikffox) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Having some Faustino VII Rioja to celebrate.Sep 08 21:16
twitterha ha ACPI still sucks in Windows 7 ->  Sleep and Hibernation Are Still Crapshoots. This may sound like a beta complaint, but it's been a real problem in Windows for a while. Sometimes your computer will come out of sleep or hibernation. (Sleep is much better than hibernation, though.) Sometimes it won't.Sep 08 21:17
twitterfrom the M$ approved Bong results 08 21:18
twitter->  Control Panel Is a Mess. Look at this crap. No really, just look at it. The Simple layout literally hides what you're looking for, while the All view masks it with the camouflage of multiplicity.Sep 08 21:19
trmancoI'm impressedSep 08 21:19
trmancoI bought one of those economic bulbsSep 08 21:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the mouse did in fact die of shock. ah well. NEXT!Sep 08 21:19
trmancoand it has twice as much luminosity as the normal 40watt one I had here :OSep 08 21:19
ThistleWebschestowitz: I just created the linux category, but best wait a while until I have a few posts in thereSep 08 21:19
schestowitz WSJ reports OIN to acquire former SGI patents (via Microsoft)Sep 08 21:19
twitter->  Windows Media Player Blows. Yeah, it now natively supports more than three-and-a-half codecs, but try actually figuring out how to use its great new features. The interface is yucky and cluttered, a consequence of trying to simplify a program that's gotten really unwieldy as its sprouted feature tentacles over the years. (Before you even start, I'm not a fan of iTunes' feature bloat either, but its library UI is better.) Our atSep 08 21:20
schestowitztwitter: that gizmodo item is hardly daminingSep 08 21:20
schestowitzRead itSep 08 21:20
ThistleWebwhats the difference between a post tag and category?Sep 08 21:20
schestowitzIt's almost like an ad in some waysSep 08 21:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] not going to BU tonight. but f is worn out and the lounge is actually tidy. now for a blessed *pint*.Sep 08 21:20
twitterI like to cherry pickSep 08 21:20
twitterWhat I see is that ACPI still does not work and media sucks.Sep 08 21:21
schestowitzThistleWeb: tags don't tag alongSep 08 21:21
schestowitzThey are usually many per itemSep 08 21:21
MinceRWMP has always blown, right from the moment it was introduced in place of Media PlayerSep 08 21:21
schestowitzCategories ae fewerSep 08 21:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] O poder das lampadas economizadoras, 11 watts dá dobro das luz das normais de 40watts :OSep 08 21:21
schestowitzCategories expected to be frequently recurring tagsSep 08 21:21
schestowitzThe different is smallSep 08 21:22
ThistleWebgotchaSep 08 21:22
ThistleWebtySep 08 21:22
schestowitzMostly history relatedSep 08 21:22
schestowitzIn the past it was catsSep 08 21:22
schestowitzNow tagsSep 08 21:22
schestowitzSince some years ago with the folksonomy/tag hypeSep 08 21:22
twitterthe Gizmodo article is a log like an ad.  I'm sure they were given the best working machine M$ could buy.Sep 08 21:22
schestowitzThey wereSep 08 21:22
schestowitzIIRCSep 08 21:22
schestowitzLet me checkSep 08 21:22
ThistleWebthey just seemed to be 2 names for the same thing, thats allSep 08 21:22
twitterSo, even the best M$ can do is suck.Sep 08 21:23
schestowitztwitter: 08 21:24
ThistleWebso are you saying categories are being phased out and that I should be using tags?Sep 08 21:24
twitterarticle is too old to quote, fanboys will say "all those problems are fixed."Sep 08 21:24
schestowitzThistleWeb: yes, but..Sep 08 21:24
twitterother sources are better than the "love-in"Sep 08 21:24
schestowitzCategories become part of a blog hierarchy, sortaSep 08 21:24
schestowitzBut categories can be shown as cloud tagSep 08 21:24
ThistleWebdoes each tag create it's own rss feed?Sep 08 21:24
schestowitzTags are cats on steroid{Tm}Sep 08 21:24
schestowitz*dsSep 08 21:24
ThistleWebI dont like the cloud thing, I wont use that widgetSep 08 21:25
schestowitzThey accumulated related topic and more of them from many blogsSep 08 21:25
schestowitzFor people to find event photos and stuffSep 08 21:25
schestowitzThistleWeb: tags have no rssSep 08 21:25
schestowitzin most cmsesSep 08 21:25
schestowitzIt would be possibleSep 08 21:25
schestowitzLike tag pagesSep 08 21:25
schestowitzThey are wastefullSep 08 21:25
schestowitzPageRank dilutersSep 08 21:25
ThistleWebI dont expect that many categories, but I'd like peeps to only subscribe to some subjects if thats what they wantSep 08 21:26
ThistleWebmaybe I'll think through the categories I need and just use them, I can always tag additional detail per postSep 08 21:27
ThistleWebit's been ages since I used wordpress, it's changed a lotSep 08 21:29
trmanco97 thing every programmer should know -> 08 21:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] 97 things every programmer should know -> 08 21:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Plasma Summit: New functions for KDE's desktop shell: 08 21:32
*izmel (i=3c30facc@gateway/web/freenode/x-xuhrkedaknddmkpz) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:32
*izmel (i=3c30facc@gateway/web/freenode/x-xuhrkedaknddmkpz) has left #boycottnovellSep 08 21:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "100 Reasons Why Linux Kicks Ass" Great page.Sep 08 21:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Patch Tuesday: Five Critical: 08 21:33
schestowitzYet Another Call For A 'Computer User's License' 08 21:34
schestowitzLawyers For Guy Charged In Death Of 4 Year Old, Demanding IDs Of 300 Newspaper Commenters < >Sep 08 21:36
schestowitz*sigh*Sep 08 21:37
schestowitzSome people don't get the NetSep 08 21:37
twitterIn Corporate Redmond, people us the net to get you! 08 21:39
twitterha haSep 08 21:39
twitterbblSep 08 21:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft pulls Windows 7 balloons from Euro 'launch parties': 08 21:40
schestowitztrmanco: no racism hereSep 08 21:41
schestowitzJust silly balloon thingSep 08 21:41
trmancoUK is not euroSep 08 21:42
schestowitzBalloons are lameSep 08 21:42
trmanco:(Sep 08 21:42
schestowitzThese are adults, fekchristsakeSep 08 21:42
trmancomaybe :)Sep 08 21:42
trmancoUK did a right thing to stay away from euroSep 08 21:42
schestowitzVIsata 7! BAAAAAAH-loons!Sep 08 21:42
*_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:42
trmancothat's nothingSep 08 21:42
schestowitzIs there cake too?Sep 08 21:42
schestowitzHow about raising the Vista 7 box on a chair?Sep 08 21:42
trmancofor windows 8 launch party there will be jumping clowns and monkeysSep 08 21:42
schestowitzDoes Vista blow the candels or just blows?Sep 08 21:43
schestowitz*CandlesSep 08 21:43
trmancoLOLSep 08 21:43
trmancobothSep 08 21:43
_Hicham_great VistaSep 08 21:43
schestowitztrmanco: Vista has acrobatsSep 08 21:43
schestowitzThey danced on buildingsSep 08 21:43
schestowitzWow!Sep 08 21:43
schestowitzShow us your Wow!Sep 08 21:43
_Hicham_let's celebrate WindowsSep 08 21:43
schestowitzThe Wow Starts... NOW!Sep 08 21:43
schestowitzWowSep 08 21:43
_Hicham_24 Years of ...Sep 08 21:43
schestowitz_Hicham_: there's a party in my stomachSep 08 21:43
schestowitzSoon a party in my arseSep 08 21:43
schestowitzmaybe VIsta 7 is in theirSep 08 21:44
trmanco "WinNuke is back, baby!"Sep 08 21:44
schestowitzDoesn't work on 'my machine'Sep 08 21:44
_Hicham_schestowitz : I just broke the fast in hereSep 08 21:44
schestowitzHeheSep 08 21:44
schestowitztrmanco: indeedSep 08 21:44
schestowitzThat's what I saidSep 08 21:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] "WinNuke is back, baby!" LOOOLSep 08 21:44
schestowitzQUick, get thre VB codeSep 08 21:44
schestowitzThere's room for reuseSep 08 21:44
schestowitzJust readjust the packet payloadSep 08 21:45
_Hicham_schestowitz : is there a lot of muslims in Manchester ?Sep 08 21:45
schestowitzCall it Win7nukeSep 08 21:45
trmancohehSep 08 21:45
schestowitzWin7nuke.exeSep 08 21:45
schestowitz_Hicham_: yesSep 08 21:45
schestowitzYou coming? :-)Sep 08 21:45
*trmanco B0000MSep 08 21:45
_Hicham_if I have time, why notSep 08 21:45
schestowitztrmanco: at least it boots fasterSep 08 21:46
schestowitzLOLSep 08 21:46
schestowitzAfter the BSODSep 08 21:46
trmanconopeSep 08 21:46
trmancoit restarts fasterSep 08 21:46
schestowitzThen pull out the plug from the socketSep 08 21:46
_Hicham_Gentoo boots faster than any OSSep 08 21:46
_Hicham_trmanco : ready to try Gentoo ?Sep 08 21:46
schestowitzTakes time to compileSep 08 21:46
trmanconoSep 08 21:46
trmancoI'm not that hardcore yetSep 08 21:46
MinceRFreeDOS boots faster than Gentoo :>Sep 08 21:46
trmanconext up will be archSep 08 21:46
_Hicham_trmanco : how hardcore are u ?Sep 08 21:46
_Hicham_MinceR : ever used FreeDOS ?Sep 08 21:47
MinceRi think i did, in dosbox :)Sep 08 21:47
trmancoI consider myself  between n00b and hardcoreSep 08 21:47
trmancomedium user I guessSep 08 21:48
trmanconot really advanced yetSep 08 21:48
*Logician has quit ("Page closed")Sep 08 21:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] how to win friends and influence people 08 21:50
trmancoFree Software Foundation files objection to Google Book Search settlement: 08 21:51
*gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz you actually find konqueror usable? i couldn't stand it after a whileSep 08 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @danyR: Why Youtube should use Ogg Theora and HTML 5? 08 21:58
*Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Sep 08 22:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard I mostly use Thunderbrowse and Firefox (both gecko)Sep 08 22:14
schestowitztrmanco: youtube is a major injection vendor for Flash. It would not surprise me if Adobe pays Google for it all.Sep 08 22:20
_Hicham_schestowitz : actually Google should pay AdobeSep 08 22:20
MinceRas if adobe deserved any money for what they've doneSep 08 22:22
_Hicham_MinceR : they don't ?Sep 08 22:23
MinceRthey don'tSep 08 22:23
_Hicham_even though they developed a plugin for Linux ?Sep 08 22:26
_Hicham_and gave mozilla the source code of flash plugin to improve its integration ?Sep 08 22:27
MinceRyay, they've made the web even worse by continuing to push flashSep 08 22:34
MinceRpushing useless bloat and a great threat to privacy into browsersSep 08 22:35
_Hicham_MinceR : was there a better solution than flash ?Sep 08 22:36
trmancohtml 5 is hereSep 08 22:37
trmancoto staySep 08 22:37
MinceR_Hicham_: yes, it's called HTMLSep 08 22:38
_Hicham_MinceR : right now yesSep 08 22:38
_Hicham_but before, was there an alternative ?Sep 08 22:38
MinceRHTML was here before flash existedSep 08 22:38
_Hicham_HTML5?Sep 08 22:39
MinceRit was always a better solution than flashSep 08 22:39
MinceRHTMLSep 08 22:39
_Hicham_how ?Sep 08 22:39
MinceRi didn't say any version numberSep 08 22:39
_Hicham_embed videos with object tag ?Sep 08 22:39
MinceRyou could always link to videosSep 08 22:39
MinceRand it worked better than anything elseSep 08 22:39
_Hicham_like to videos using embedded plugins?Sep 08 22:39
MinceRthere's no point in constraining videos into a part of a browser windowSep 08 22:39
_Hicham_like Windows Media Player plugin ?Sep 08 22:40
MinceRbut even embedded plugins work better than flashSep 08 22:40
MinceRyes, even the wmp plugin works better than flashSep 08 22:40
_Hicham_OK, so u are helping MS in hereSep 08 22:40
MinceRplus you can replace the plugin while using the same container and codecsSep 08 22:40
_Hicham_and AppleSep 08 22:40
MinceRno, not reallySep 08 22:40
MinceRhave you ever heard of Kaffeine, Totem, MPlayer?Sep 08 22:40
MinceRXine?Sep 08 22:40
MinceRwhich one of those are from m$ or crApple?Sep 08 22:40
MinceRalso, which media player won't play a video file you've downloaded via a link?Sep 08 22:41
trmancooh Xine is shinySep 08 22:41
_Hicham_note : not all WMV videos work on Mplayer or XineSep 08 22:41
MinceR_Hicham_: before you get carried away too far, note that i didn't mention WMVSep 08 22:41
_Hicham_Real Media videos are worseSep 08 22:41
MinceRthere's also MPEGSep 08 22:41
_Hicham_MinceR : WMV are used worldwideSep 08 22:41
MinceRand Ogg, Matroska, and othersSep 08 22:41
_Hicham_WMV videos are more compressed than MPEGSep 08 22:42
MinceRthat is a function of the codec, not the containerSep 08 22:42
_Hicham_of courseSep 08 22:42
MinceRyou don't know what you're talking aboutSep 08 22:42
MinceRso stop trollingSep 08 22:42
_Hicham_I know what I am talking aboutSep 08 22:42
_Hicham_you are the troll in hereSep 08 22:42
MinceRi'm the one putting words in the mouth of the others?Sep 08 22:42
_Hicham_You are promoting proprietary codecs and leading to illegal use of LinuxSep 08 22:43
_Hicham_Flash Plugin is at least legal to useSep 08 22:43
MinceRok, now quote me promoting proprietary codecsSep 08 22:43
_Hicham_yesSep 08 22:43
_Hicham_that is what u just didSep 08 22:43
MinceRalso, tell me which kind of FLOSS codec flash usesSep 08 22:43
MinceRwhere's the quote?Sep 08 22:43
_Hicham_it is not FLOSS, but it is legalSep 08 22:43
MinceRso you're still spewing bullshitSep 08 22:43
MinceRand calling me a troll, while you continue trollingSep 08 22:44
MinceReven the container flash uses is proprietarySep 08 22:44
_Hicham_proprietary but legalSep 08 22:44
MinceRand its video playback is badly writtenSep 08 22:44
MinceRand it always was badly writtenSep 08 22:44
_Hicham_using MPlayer is not always legalSep 08 22:45
_Hicham_using VLC is not always legalSep 08 22:45
_Hicham_using Gstreamer-plugins-bad and ugly is not always legalSep 08 22:45
trmancothat is in some countriesSep 08 22:45
MinceRyou could use fluendo (or what they're called) pluginsSep 08 22:45
_Hicham_yesSep 08 22:45
MinceRyou could use Ogg Theora/VorbisSep 08 22:45
_Hicham_in Gstreamer onlySep 08 22:45
MinceRor even DiracSep 08 22:45
_Hicham_MinceR : I am talking about just decodingSep 08 22:46
_Hicham_not encodingSep 08 22:46
MinceRand if you accept flash, it means you accept proprietary crapSep 08 22:46
MinceRso you might as well use realplayer or wmpSep 08 22:46
MinceRit's the same proprietary crapSep 08 22:46
_Hicham_MinceR : I don't accept proprietary crapSep 08 22:46
MinceRonly when you believe it supports your pointSep 08 22:46
_Hicham_I just have to deal with itSep 08 22:46
MinceRand if you have to deal with flash, that makes it ok?Sep 08 22:47
_Hicham_not that flash is better suited for streamingSep 08 22:47
_Hicham_*noteSep 08 22:47
_Hicham_there is no other equivalent solution till the momentSep 08 22:47
_Hicham_even HTML5 implementation of Videos still uses a lof of CPU powerSep 08 22:48
MinceRexcept for the ones i've already mentioned?Sep 08 22:48
_Hicham_case : openvideo on dailymotionSep 08 22:48
MinceRalso, have fun with your full-screen streamed video in flashSep 08 22:48
MinceRwith 5 fps at 100% CPU load on each coreSep 08 22:48
MinceRit's the state of the art!Sep 08 22:48
_Hicham_yes, it depends on the playerSep 08 22:48
_Hicham_some players use 100% cpuSep 08 22:48
_Hicham_while other are more conservativeSep 08 22:48
MinceRthere's only one player for flash that supports all (or even most) flash appletsSep 08 22:49
MinceRthe official proprietary crapSep 08 22:49
_Hicham_but I d like to see SVG replace this hole thingSep 08 22:49
MinceRcoded by retarded monkeysSep 08 22:49
MinceRyes, i can totally see SVG replace MPEGSep 08 22:49
MinceRoh, waitSep 08 22:49
_Hicham_Mozilla have really some great samples of SVG animationsSep 08 22:50
_Hicham_which is very promisingSep 08 22:50
_Hicham_it just needs more workSep 08 22:50
MinceRthe web doesn't really need vector animation, btwSep 08 22:50
_Hicham_i d rather say that gnash and swfdec teams should work on a better implementation of svgSep 08 22:50
_Hicham_instead of catching up with AdobeSep 08 22:50
MinceRit needs hypertext with static imagesSep 08 22:50
_Hicham_MinceR : why images even ? let's do just textSep 08 22:51
MinceRif the gnash and swfdec teams gave up on flash, you couldn't even play as much as you can now with themSep 08 22:51
_Hicham_and use w3m and lynxSep 08 22:51
_Hicham_Gnash and Swfdec are still incompleteSep 08 22:51
MinceRi'd say images aren't too intensive on resourcesSep 08 22:51
_Hicham_and consume far more memory than FlashSep 08 22:52
_Hicham_animated images are too intensive on resourcesSep 08 22:52
MinceR225936 < MinceR> it needs hypertext with static imagesSep 08 22:52
MinceRconsult the dictionary on the meaning of "static"Sep 08 22:52
_Hicham_ok, MinceR is bringing the web to .... ah, mid 90s ?Sep 08 22:53
MinceRto sanitySep 08 22:53
MinceRnot the mid90s, with its huge heaps of stock animgifsSep 08 22:53
MinceRand i'd retain CSSSep 08 22:53
_Hicham_excuse me MinceR, but u should *flash* your headSep 08 22:54
_Hicham_everybody is working toward a better WebSep 08 22:54
MinceRand now you've turned to personal remarksSep 08 22:54
MinceRscraping the bottom of the barrel?Sep 08 22:54
_Hicham_no, I am just very surprised to see how u r seeing thingsSep 08 22:55
MinceRa better web doesn't mean web pages that take up hundreds of megabytes of RAM just for a paragraph of text that you can't copy nor saveSep 08 22:55
_Hicham_are u really talking seriously ?Sep 08 22:55
MinceRit also doesn't mean pages where you can't stop the background musicSep 08 22:55
_Hicham_MinceR : u got solutions for thatSep 08 22:55
MinceRor where you have to wait until you can disable itSep 08 22:55
MinceRyesSep 08 22:55
MinceRflash blockingSep 08 22:56
_Hicham_yesSep 08 22:56
MinceRwhich breaks flashsitesSep 08 22:56
_Hicham_noscriptSep 08 22:56
MinceRflashsites exist alreadySep 08 22:56
_Hicham_and so onSep 08 22:56
MinceRshows how much macromedia/adobe has broken the web alreadySep 08 22:56
_Hicham_people have to make moneySep 08 22:56
_Hicham_they should use animationsSep 08 22:56
MinceRand not just uncopyable text, but also broken scroll behavior, no keyboard support, no accessibility, no font resizingSep 08 22:56
_Hicham_static stuff won't attract customersSep 08 22:56
MinceRcustomers should grow upSep 08 22:57
_Hicham_give companies a more attractive solution, and Adobe is doneSep 08 22:57
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_Hicham_customers should grow up ?Sep 08 22:57
MinceRpeople need to grow up if we are to have a better webSep 08 22:57
MinceRfascination with shiny and noisy bloat gets in the waySep 08 22:57
MinceRit leads to stuff like flashSep 08 22:57
_Hicham_that what makes moneySep 08 22:58
MinceRgood products make money, tooSep 08 22:58
MinceRsure, they're more difficult to produceSep 08 22:58
_Hicham_good products need marketing tooSep 08 22:58
MinceRbut they make our lives better instead of just making us poorerSep 08 22:58
MinceRoriginally the idea was that the business that makes better products will prosperSep 08 22:59
MinceRbetter products survive, and our lives get betterSep 08 22:59
MinceRbut that's not what's happeningSep 08 22:59
wallclimberI think one reason why microsoft was able to get the hold it did was because ordinary people had nothing prior to compare it to.Sep 08 23:01
MinceRordinary people lost control before they could get their bearingsSep 08 23:01
wallclimberthey had nothing to look at to see if it was well done, or notSep 08 23:01
MinceROEM agreements sprang upSep 08 23:01
MinceRbefore people knew what was happening, m$ was already making their products subtly incompatible with those of competitorsSep 08 23:02
MinceR(mainly me$$y-do$)Sep 08 23:02
ThistleWebwhen you're the lil guy you have to be compatible with the big guy, when you become the big guy you can tell the lil guy to fuck offSep 08 23:02
wallclimberwhen windows was new, everyone thought it would get better, so they cut microsoft a lot of slackSep 08 23:02
_Hicham_MS-DOS did have BSOD or not ?Sep 08 23:02
MinceRnoSep 08 23:03
MinceRin m$-dos apps froze the machineSep 08 23:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Foundation Talks About the Future of Linux 08 23:03
MinceRThistleWeb: and that's not how engineers workSep 08 23:03
MinceRthese are all bullies, not engineersSep 08 23:04
wallclimberit's why i try to be very patient with the folks i help.  they are intelligent people, but are horribly afraid of their computers, i try to help them relax and learn how to be responsible for their own machinesSep 08 23:04
MinceRi thought people cut m$ a lot of slack because macos was expensive as hell and the other GUIs didn't have many apps for themSep 08 23:04
wallclimberthat's the key to getting people to see why windows is junkSep 08 23:04
wallclimberi don't know.  that's not how i remember those times...early 90s or so.  aol was giving out cds like candy and dialup was a luxurySep 08 23:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Proposal for Setting Up GNU/Linux in Schools 08 23:05
ThistleWebwallclimber: one area MS have been very successful in, is making people afraid of their PCs. When something goes wrong it's always the users fault for clicking on something, not MS fault for letting it auto execute and install whatever malwareSep 08 23:06
wallclimberpeople my age got computers because their kids wanted themSep 08 23:06
MinceRm$ made people accept unreliability as a normal part of ITSep 08 23:06
wallclimberThistleWeb: that's exactly what's happened, and that's the first thing i try to teach people is not to let that stupid computer make them feel stupidSep 08 23:07
MinceRit crashes? business as usual. reboot/reinstall.Sep 08 23:07
ThistleWebI've taught basic PC use and tricks to people on a volunteer basis from time to time, and lost count of the number of time they'd turn to me before clicking on something, to see if I'd stop them or nodSep 08 23:07
ThistleWeba PC is a tool, it should be able to be configures and used as such for the end users needsSep 08 23:08
ThistleWebconfigured*Sep 08 23:08
MinceRindeedSep 08 23:08
wallclimberI've seen that too, i always smile and tell them that nothing they can do (short of a sledge hammer) is going to hurt that computerSep 08 23:08
ThistleWebit shouldn't break by normal users actionsSep 08 23:08
cubezzzin the past the reliability of the PC was largely due to the power supplySep 08 23:08
cubezzzif it locked up, you would reboot instantly into basicSep 08 23:08
wallclimberi refuse to work on anyone's computer that won't at least invest in an UPSSep 08 23:09
ThistleWebthe way I see it, is that it's as important to build their confidence in experimenting as it is to try and get them onto FOSS / LinuxSep 08 23:09
_Hicham_UPS are cheapSep 08 23:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Desktop GNU/Linux Has Success in OEM Channel Despite Vista 7 Hype 08 23:10
wallclimberand for older folks (the majority of those i work with) i let them know it's okay to tell their kids and grandkids to leave their computers aloneSep 08 23:10
cubezzzsome power supplies don't deal with heat very well, like these tiny transformers on routers and dsl 'modems'Sep 08 23:10
cubezzzjust bad engineeringSep 08 23:11
wallclimbergrandma and grandpa are generally overly careful...until the holidays when the grandkids get bored and download a pile of junk on granny's machineSep 08 23:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Video Shows How GNU/Linux Challenges Microsoft 08 23:11
ThistleWebfor older folks, the risk of a virus allowing porn popups must be a downside to windows, and an angle to use to help promote linuxSep 08 23:12
ThistleWebsome older folks like porn too, but it's not all that common IMOSep 08 23:12
wallclimberi've had some truly nice experiences helping folks with their computers though...even got a marriage proposal once...lolSep 08 23:12
ThistleWebstill, even with porn it's nice to choose your own, in your own time lolSep 08 23:13
wallclimberThistleWeb, i had one lady that whispered to me, over the phone, that she was afraid her husband was into porn...she was very sad and upsetSep 08 23:13
ThistleWebwallclimber: I don't doubt it, there was a teacher who had porn pop up during a class, she had to try and prove it was a virus, not her intentSep 08 23:14
wallclimberit ended up just being a bad infestation of malware, we got it cleaned up and they both laughed about it...but it could have been a bad situation (they run Mandriva now :)Sep 08 23:14
cubezzzwell, anyone could get a 'bad' email with thatSep 08 23:15
ThistleWebpeople don't understand the basics of how a PC works from a users point of view. It's not all that difficult.Sep 08 23:15
ThistleWebsuccess then :))Sep 08 23:15
wallclimberyes, that situation with the substitute teacher was a shameful thing...that poor woman was ruined over stupidity...Sep 08 23:16
ThistleWebI don't expect peeps to learn advanced PC stuff, but everyone who uses a PC should learn the basics, regardless of which OS they useSep 08 23:16
wallclimberthe thing is, grandparents tell me all the time that their kids (not youngsters, but grown kids) are too impatient to explain things to them, so they are glad to find someone their age hat's willing to help them learnSep 08 23:17
wallclimber*that's*Sep 08 23:17
cubezzzwell if you want to teach you have to have a lot of patienceSep 08 23:18
wallclimberone of my pet peeves is the common idea that grandparents are too stupid to learn new things.  they really just learn differently,Sep 08 23:18
cubezzzsome folks have the attention span of a fruit flySep 08 23:18
wallclimbercubezzz: Windows taught me patienceSep 08 23:19
cubezzzI'll betSep 08 23:19
wallclimber:o)Sep 08 23:19
cubezzzwell, you're old enough to remember the pre-windows era, that should helpSep 08 23:19
wallclimberi found that attention spans get shorter if people feel uncomfortable or defensiveSep 08 23:19
wallclimberi always do my best to keep things light, and let people learn at their own speedSep 08 23:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Solano Stroll to Have GNU/Linux Presence and Welcome New Users 08 23:20
cubezzzit's different for most of my generation, we pretty much grew up at the beginning of the PC era, starting in the late 70'sSep 08 23:21
cubezzzwindows is just another phaseSep 08 23:21
wallclimberi told one older woman who was sooo afraid of her computer, that she'd given birth, raised 3 kids, worked a full time job all her life, and buried loved ones...if she could do all that (under some very adverse conditions) she could handle a computerSep 08 23:22
wallclimberno problemSep 08 23:22
wallclimberi think you just have to put it all in perspective sometimesSep 08 23:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Victorian Department of Transport Goes with GNU/Linux 08 23:22
wallclimberit ain't brain science or rocket surgery, ya know? LOLSep 08 23:23
wallclimberok, i don't know why i'm so chatty today...been a little chaotic here though...need a breakSep 08 23:23
cubezzzwell, things are a bit different now, computers are ubiquitous and just about essentialSep 08 23:24
wallclimberwallclimber is feeling stressed - off to find foodSep 08 23:24
cubezzzok, I'll just drone on by myself :)Sep 08 23:24
wallclimbertake care :o)Sep 08 23:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Keeps Gaining More Hardware Support, Other Power Features 08 23:24
wallclimberlol, i do that all the time :)Sep 08 23:24
wallclimberbye for nowSep 08 23:25
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 08 23:25
cubezzzlaterSep 08 23:25
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 23:25
cubezzzdamn, no Microsoft trolls to argue with todaySep 08 23:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE Development and Free 3-D Acceleration Updates 08 23:27
_Hicham_schestowitz : thanks for the videoSep 08 23:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Slitaz 2 a Good Step Forward in Lightweight and Compete GNU/Linux 08 23:29
trmancololSep 08 23:31
trmancocubezzz: go to COLASep 08 23:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Internet Explorer Loses a Lot of Share Outside the US 08 23:32
_Hicham_I am writing a native IE port to LinuxSep 08 23:35
_Hicham_It will be shipped by default by all linux distrosSep 08 23:35
_Hicham_and even BSDsSep 08 23:35
trmancoare you also porting the engine?Sep 08 23:36
MinceR_Hicham_: do you already have the source code?Sep 08 23:36
trmancohow did you get access to the source code?Sep 08 23:36
MinceR_Hicham_: also, which IE version is it based on?Sep 08 23:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Gentoo Merits Debate 08 23:37
_Hicham_MinceR : IE8Sep 08 23:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Makes Its Free Software Business Case 08 23:38
MinceR_Hicham_: so, do you already have the source code? if not, how are you going to get it? if you aren't going to get it, how are you going to port it?Sep 08 23:39
_Hicham_Microsoft will give it to me under shared code licenseSep 08 23:39
_Hicham_that way, we will have a native 08 23:40
MinceRand how will you get the rights to distribute the port?Sep 08 23:40
MinceRwithout those, it won't be shipped by most linux/bsd distrosSep 08 23:41
_Hicham_I will host the port in my websiteSep 08 23:41
MinceRand how will you fend off the hordes of m$ lawyers?Sep 08 23:42
MinceRalso, how will those distros fend off the hordes of m$ lawyers?Sep 08 23:42
ThistleWebMinceR: try silver bulletsSep 08 23:43
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MinceRi prefer napalmSep 08 23:43
ThistleWebnapalm is not very accurate, too much collateral damageSep 08 23:44
MinceRthat's why it should be dropped on the m$ hqSep 08 23:44
_goblinhi all!Sep 08 23:44
MinceRhaySep 08 23:44
ThistleWebhey _goblinSep 08 23:44
_goblinhi.....hows things going?Sep 08 23:45
*ThistleWeb finally got his blog going, and has done a couple of postsSep 08 23:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Zenwalk 6.2 is Released and Reviewed 08 23:45
*MinceR is looking for a new keyboardSep 08 23:45
_goblinSince Moshe Goldfarb will be reading these logs in detail, I'll say hello to him too....Hi Moshe!!!!Sep 08 23:46
MinceRi almost got a G15 with the proper layout i needSep 08 23:46
MinceRthen turned out the only piece they had was the demo piece, which was handled by a lot of people :(Sep 08 23:46
_goblinThistleweb.....whats your blog address???Sep 08 23:46
_goblinor have I already linked to it?Sep 08 23:47
ThistleWeb_goblin: 08 23:47
_goblinthanks.....Sep 08 23:47
_Hicham_wb _goblinSep 08 23:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Family Broken Down and Explained 08 23:47
_goblin:)Sep 08 23:47
_goblinthistleweb: It will be on the blogroll shortly.Sep 08 23:48
ThistleWeb_goblin: it's still kinda generic right now until I get more used to wordpress, and which plugins I need etcSep 08 23:48
ThistleWebtySep 08 23:48
_Hicham_ThistleWeb : ask schestowitz, he is an expert in WordpressSep 08 23:49
_goblinthats np.....Ive stuck with a very basic layout...been very happy.Sep 08 23:49
_goblinyep and Roy's the wordpress pro!Sep 08 23:49
ThistleWebyeah he's helped answer a few things earlierSep 08 23:49
schestowitzHey, _goblinSep 08 23:49
schestowitzbrbSep 08 23:49
schestowitzDoing twits and allSep 08 23:49
ThistleWebit'll gradually be refinedSep 08 23:50
schestowitzI was once listed among main WordPress peopleSep 08 23:50
schestowitzNot that I deserve itSep 08 23:50
schestowitzI used to contribute a lotSep 08 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Obama speech fills ears of mere children with vile propaganda 08 23:50
_goblinInteresting link you gave me Roy.....Sep 08 23:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] New blog! Been blog rolled on Openbytes but please visit and support! #linux #foss - THE DIGITAL PRISMSep 08 23:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu for Sub-notebooks (Easy Peasy) Released with Many Improvements 08 23:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Linux Phones to Come from HTC 08 23:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nokia Confirms Commitment to Linux 08 23:57
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*Will (i=4c724679@gateway/web/freenode/x-yzzzhrtdfdhvwqis) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 23:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE4 Starts to Shows Power Over the Rest of the Pack 08 23:58
WillHere's a question:  How do you go about trying to get someone to use OpenOffice when MS is dumping Office 2007 for $20 or less?Sep 08 23:59

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