IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 9th, 2009

WillAt that price, 9 out of 10 people will just buy MS Office, and the 10th will buy MS Office and then maybe download OpenOffice later.Sep 09 00:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Foxconn Prepares Microsoft's and Intel's Worst Nightmare -- Wintel-Free Sub-£100 PC 09 00:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hands-on Review of the ARM-based Ubuntu PC from Sharp 09 00:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] job i waited two weeks on has indeed evaporated. I can't tell you just how pleased I am at this moment.Sep 09 00:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why the Linux-powered Frankencamera is Good News for Open Source Hardware 09 00:14
sebsebsebok just caught up with the interesting convo that was going on hereSep 09 00:15
sebsebsebI wanted to quote/copyin a  few things and commentSep 09 00:15
sebsebsebwant not wanted aboveSep 09 00:15
sebsebseb[21:56] <MinceR> also, have fun with your full-screen streamed video in flashSep 09 00:15
sebsebseb[21:57] <MinceR> with 5 fps at 100% CPU load on each coreSep 09 00:15
sebsebseb[21:57] <MinceR> it's the state of the art!Sep 09 00:15
sebsebsebheh yeah  I have had this problem in Ubuntu,   Firefox with Flash and a few tabs or whatever, and the computer becomes barely useableSep 09 00:16
sebsebseb[22:03] <_Hicham_> everybody is working toward a better WebSep 09 00:16
sebsebsebOh yeah?Sep 09 00:16
sebsebsebwell  no HTML 5  <audio> and <video>  in Safari I heard :(Sep 09 00:16
MinceRsafari is malware, not a web browserSep 09 00:17
sebsebseband they say Internet Explorer 8 has better web standards support,  but obviously not enough  for the web to become much better, when it comes the most used browser,  I assume it will become the most usedSep 09 00:17
MinceRalso, nokia wants <audio> and <video> to die because it doesn't push DRM enough for themSep 09 00:17
MinceRoopsSep 09 00:17
MinceRi mean crApple wants thatSep 09 00:17
sebsebsebMinceR: Safari is a malware?Sep 09 00:17
MinceRbut nokia probably still wants the sameSep 09 00:17
MinceRsebsebseb: yes, ever since hypeTunes silently pushed it as an "update"Sep 09 00:18
MinceRthat was enabled by defaultSep 09 00:18
sebsebsebMinceR: oh  bunddled software ah yesSep 09 00:18
ThistleWebI believe Safari either is or will be html5 compliant, the thing they objected to was ogg, so they can use their own formats with the <video> and <audio>tagsSep 09 00:18
sebsebsebyou install a program, but you also get othersSep 09 00:18
MinceRinstalling programs without the user's approval is specific to malware.Sep 09 00:18
MinceRThistleWeb: so they are only willing to support patent-encumbered formats?Sep 09 00:18
_Hicham_there is no safari on linuxSep 09 00:18
sebsebsebMinceR: well if they are doing it on Windows,  I guess  that's better than loads of users, only having Internet ExplorerSep 09 00:19
MinceRcupertino needs a healthy load of napalm tooSep 09 00:19
ThistleWebMinceR: I believe it's partly that, partly their OWN formats, and only those capable of DRMSep 09 00:19
sebsebsebMinceR: ,but will they use Safari in that case is the thingSep 09 00:19
MinceRsebsebseb: pushing it as malware is problematicSep 09 00:19
sebsebsebpretty much any browser is better than IE,   not including those fake browsers of course, yeah the IE shellsSep 09 00:19
ThistleWebnokia objected to ogg as they believed it was patent encumberedSep 09 00:19
MinceRand eroding the portability of free formats is not acceptableSep 09 00:20
sebsebsebheh I guess in a way even Lynx or Links are better than IE :DSep 09 00:20
ThistleWebthey all agreed on having the tags, just not the format used in themSep 09 00:20
MinceRThistleWeb: if they said that, they were lyingSep 09 00:20
sebsebsebtext only browsers can also be quite funSep 09 00:20
ThistleWebMinceR: you're speaking to the choir, I know thatSep 09 00:20
MinceRremember that nokia also basically teld the FLOSS community that they should cater to nokia's wishes for DRM supportSep 09 00:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why the EU is Right is Blocking Oracle's Takeover of MySQL 09 00:20
_Hicham_MinceR thusnelda new codec seems very aheadSep 09 00:20
MinceRi haven't heard of that oneSep 09 00:21
_Hicham_it is getting a lot of R&DSep 09 00:21
MinceRwhat is it and who are making it?Sep 09 00:21
sebsebseb[22:08] <MinceR> originally the idea was that the business that makes better products will prosperSep 09 00:21
sebsebseb[22:08] <MinceR> better products survive, and our lives get betterSep 09 00:21
_Hicham_really ?Sep 09 00:21
sebsebseb[22:08] <MinceR> but that's not what's happeningSep 09 00:21
MinceROgg?Sep 09 00:21
MinceR(Xiph)Sep 09 00:21
_Hicham_YesSep 09 00:21
sebsebsebwell it seems to me that most of the best software today  is opensource/freesoftware,  and well those  don't tend to get made by commercial companiesSep 09 00:21
sebsebsebrather  they get made by a community of volunters from all over the worldSep 09 00:21
_Hicham_a new implementation of TheoraSep 09 00:21
MinceRicSep 09 00:21
sebsebseb,but technology is meant to make life easier isn't it?   well   Microsoft haven't made my life easierSep 09 00:22
sebsebsebin fact  certain problems in my life, are really Microsoft's faultSep 09 00:22
_Hicham_the video about MS vs FOSS that schestowitz posted the link to was hilariousSep 09 00:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FogComputing Barriers Fought Against by GNU/Linux Leader, #P2P 09 00:22
MinceRmost of the problems with IT are m$'s faultSep 09 00:22
sebsebsebMinceR: indeedSep 09 00:22
_Hicham_MS made surfing the Web harderSep 09 00:22
MinceRsome of the rest are crApple's or adobe/macromedia's faultSep 09 00:23
sebsebsebindeedSep 09 00:23
_Hicham_When I first installed Linux, first thing I was looking for was compatibility with Windows programsSep 09 00:24
_Hicham_now I don't even have wine installedSep 09 00:24
sebsebseb_Hicham_: They made  surfing the web harder, how?Sep 09 00:24
_Hicham_sebsebseb : by making writing plugins to IE harderSep 09 00:24
MinceRsebsebseb: they've harmed web standards heavilySep 09 00:24
_goblin_Hicham_: Its only the demoscene I keep Wine on my system for....Sep 09 00:24
sebsebsebMinceR: indeedSep 09 00:24
sebsebsebexactlySep 09 00:24
MinceRsebsebseb: they've convinced people to write m$-html and m$-css and m$-jscript insteadSep 09 00:25
sebsebsebsince  they don't take the web standards seriosuly enoughSep 09 00:25
sebsebsebthe web sucks basicalleySep 09 00:25
sebsebsebof course the average computer user, has no ideaSep 09 00:25
ThistleWebnot only harder, but made sure the waters are full of predators, many on autopilotSep 09 00:25
_Hicham_writing IE plugins required that you have MS Visual Studio ProSep 09 00:25
MinceRmacromedia/adobe convinced them to embed massive amounts of flash into that m$-html messSep 09 00:25
_Hicham_It is still requiredSep 09 00:25
MinceRm$ also tried to push RadioActiveX but thankfully that failedSep 09 00:25
_Hicham_that is why there is not as much plugins for IESep 09 00:25
sebsebsebMinceR: Radio????Sep 09 00:25
_Hicham_only big companies write IE pluginsSep 09 00:26
MinceRsebsebseb: i'm mocking ActiveXSep 09 00:26
MinceRsebsebseb: it deserves it.Sep 09 00:26
sebsebsebMinceR: yeah I was wondering what you meant by Radio, and I know that Activex   can be the reason that malware gets onto  a Windows install, well and IE of courseSep 09 00:26
MinceRand outlookSep 09 00:26
MinceRand a lot more thingsSep 09 00:27
sebsebsebyepSep 09 00:27
sebsebseb[22:09] <wallclimber> I think one reason why microsoft was able to get the hold it did was because ordinary people had nothing prior to compare it to.Sep 09 00:28
sebsebseb[22:10] <MinceR> ordinary people lost control before they could get their bearingsSep 09 00:28
sebsebseb[22:10] <wallclimber> they had nothing to look at to see if it was well done, or notSep 09 00:28
sebsebseb[22:10] <MinceR> OEM agreements sprang upSep 09 00:28
sebsebseb[22:10] <MinceR> before people knew what was happening, m$ was already making their products subtly incompatible with those of competitorsSep 09 00:28
sebsebseb[22:10] <MinceR> (mainly me$$y-do$)Sep 09 00:28
sebsebsebwell yeah,  Windows  is  the first OS for many peopleSep 09 00:28
sebsebseband before the PC, many people didn't have a computerSep 09 00:28
ThistleWebaka My First VirusSep 09 00:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Kofi Annan Seemingly Inspired by Free Software 09 00:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Google Should Support Ogg and Stop Making up Excuses 09 00:28
sebsebseband yes  Microsoft products can be known  to spread like a virusSep 09 00:28
MinceRnahSep 09 00:29
ThistleWeb"I must be really good at this computery thing, I didn't even have to press a button to get infected"Sep 09 00:29
sebsebsebMinceR: nah?Sep 09 00:29
MinceRviruses are a lot more efficient and stuffSep 09 00:29
MinceRthere's a quote about this, i'll see if i can find itSep 09 00:29
MinceR 09 00:30
sebsebseb[22:11] <wallclimber> when windows was new, everyone thought it would get better, so they cut microsoft a lot of slackSep 09 00:30
sebsebsebWell at the time Windows 3.1  was seen as being a pretty good OS, wasn't it?Sep 09 00:30
sebsebsebWindows 95 wasSep 09 00:30
sebsebsebthat's for sureSep 09 00:30
WillSince it looks like more people are active now, I'll repeat a question from earlier:  How do you go about trying to get someone to try OpenOffice when MS dumps Office 2007 for $20 or less?Sep 09 00:31
MinceR3.1 wasn't an OSSep 09 00:31
sebsebsebMinceR: GUI for DOS?Sep 09 00:31
MinceRyesSep 09 00:31
sebsebseboh okSep 09 00:31
sebsebsebyeah and MS Bob for Windows 95, and I think 3.1 as well?Sep 09 00:31
_Hicham_MinceR : for how much have u used WindowsSep 09 00:31
MinceRWill: one idea i can think of is bundling it with GNU/Linux, or preinstalling itSep 09 00:31
_Hicham_?Sep 09 00:31
MinceR_Hicham_: didn't count, probably more than 10 yearsSep 09 00:31
Willsebsebseb: I really think MS software used to be half-decent for the time, circa 10 years agoSep 09 00:32
*GoodStudent (n=GoodStud@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 00:32
GoodStudentNokia N97 - what software other than PC Suite can I use to access and backup my "vanished" contact list?Sep 09 00:32
sebsebsebWill: I agree  in the 90's  MS  was alright reallySep 09 00:32
sebsebsebWill: ,but then get to 2000 and well you knowSep 09 00:32
_Hicham_MS was never rightSep 09 00:33
MinceRGoodStudent: dunno, but have you tried wammu/gammu?Sep 09 00:33
_Hicham_we were slaves to MSSep 09 00:33
sebsebseb_Hicham_: indeedSep 09 00:33
*Xarver ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 00:33
MinceRalso i faintly remember reading some sync stuff for linux that relied on a small symbian app being installed on the phoneSep 09 00:33
MinceRi don't remember any half-decent m$ softwareSep 09 00:33
sebsebsebmany  people  had/have to start with Windows, because  they were/are young, and so  didn't have their own computer yetSep 09 00:34
sebsebsebplus most poeple don't know about LinuxSep 09 00:34
sebsebsebthat use computersSep 09 00:34
WillWhat was out there to compare to Win95/98?Sep 09 00:34
MinceRmost people didn't know about OS-es at allSep 09 00:34
GoodStudentMinceR: what are those?Sep 09 00:34
MinceRWill: OS/2 Warp 4Sep 09 00:34
GoodStudentthired parties softwares?Sep 09 00:35
MinceRGoodStudent: yesSep 09 00:35
sebsebsebif you got to start on a family computer and your parants are using Windows, well  you got to start with that,  plus if school are using itSep 09 00:35
WillI've been thinking a little about the lock in MS basically ambushed the whole world with.  I'm not sure that could have worked with any other product.  Software was new, and most importantly, just intangible data.Sep 09 00:36
_Hicham_a lot of people know about Linux and use WindowsSep 09 00:36
MinceRWill: hm, OS/2 3.0 was already "Warp" so that could count tooSep 09 00:36
GoodStudentthank you MinceRSep 09 00:36
WillData in which every part was man-made.Sep 09 00:36
sebsebsebalso  Linux was really only for geeks untill like 2000?Sep 09 00:36
MinceRGoodStudent: npSep 09 00:36
GoodStudenti hope it'll works ... otherwise i'm dead meatSep 09 00:36
sebsebsebgeeks and clever companies yeahSep 09 00:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How Microsoft Bankrolled Racketeering (Nathan Myhrvold) 09 00:36
sebsebsebgo back to  1995  what was there to compete with Windows 95?Sep 09 00:36
WillYou couldn't build cars that only run on certain highways.Sep 09 00:37
sebsebsebthat loads of people knew aboutSep 09 00:37
sebsebsebthat used a computer or were going to use oneSep 09 00:37
sebsebsebnothing at all, except for AppleSep 09 00:37
sebsebsebright?Sep 09 00:37
ThistleWebamiga?Sep 09 00:37
MinceRsebsebseb: there was OS/2, like i said before :>Sep 09 00:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FSF Opposes Google's Virtual Ownership of Books 09 00:37
sebsebsebMinceR: yeah, but  loads of people didn't know about OS/2 ?Sep 09 00:37
MinceRafaik it was better designed and better made than windblowsSep 09 00:37
_Hicham_sebsebseb : there was Debian, Redhat, Slackware in 95Sep 09 00:37
MinceRbut still it was just protected-mode DOSSep 09 00:38
sebsebseb_Hicham_: yeah, but  Debian, Redhat, and Slackware, were only really for geeks at the time?Sep 09 00:38
MinceRsebsebseb: not many knew about itSep 09 00:38
MinceReven less knew about GNU/LinuxSep 09 00:38
WillOf course, MS also sabotaged OS/2Sep 09 00:38
_Hicham_so everybody was an MS shill thenSep 09 00:38
MinceRcomputers in general were only really for geeks and businesses who could afford to support themselves, weren't they?Sep 09 00:39
sebsebsebI guess a computer  was a kind of luxary  for  many in the  early 90's  and even dial upSep 09 00:39
MinceR_Hicham_: how did you jump to that conclusion?Sep 09 00:39
Willremember the MS demo app for OS/2?  Written specifically to crash?Sep 09 00:39
MinceRi don't rememberSep 09 00:39
ThistleWebpre 2000 could you get a PC for less than £1000?Sep 09 00:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz trouble is the chinese "competitors" to IE are still mshtml.dll so not actually competition.Sep 09 00:39
_Hicham_ThistleWeb : noSep 09 00:39
sebsebsebexactly  they were quite pricey  to begin with as wellSep 09 00:40
_Hicham_Computer were only for rich peopleSep 09 00:40
ThistleWebrich people who often wouldnt risk breaking it by truing to install a different OSSep 09 00:40
ThistleWebgiven that installing an OS wasn't easy thenSep 09 00:40
ThistleWebcertainly not easy compared to modern OS'sSep 09 00:41
sebsebseb[22:11] <wallclimber> when windows was new, everyone thought it would get better, so they cut microsoft a lot of slackSep 09 00:41
MinceRaccording to WP, OS/2's design was pretty crappy tooSep 09 00:41
sebsebsebI guess so, plus other stuff was on it's way out, the BBC,  the Achorn, etcSep 09 00:41
MinceR_Hicham_: rich people could afford to use computers as desk ornaments :>Sep 09 00:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's anti-Linux 'Training' Gaffe Used to Train People to Dislike Microsoft 09 00:41
MinceRi guess that's what crApple is forSep 09 00:41
MinceRor rather than desk ornaments, more importantly status symbolsSep 09 00:42
sebsebsebWindows was a good choice in the early 90'sSep 09 00:42
sebsebseb?Sep 09 00:42
sebsebsebsounds like itSep 09 00:42
sebsebseband even in the late 90'sSep 09 00:42
MinceRit was one of the few choices on PCsSep 09 00:42
MinceRand most of those choices were crap, including windblowsSep 09 00:42
trmancololSep 09 00:43
trmancodos was probably the best choiceSep 09 00:43
trmancoI still remember 3.11Sep 09 00:43
sebsebsebWhat about Mac OS 9 or whatever it was?Sep 09 00:43
_Hicham_Windows is still dominatingSep 09 00:43
MinceRi doubt there was macos 9 back thenSep 09 00:43
sebsebseb_Hicham_: ,because of computer ignorance, and them gaining most of the desktop market in the 90'sSep 09 00:43
trmancowe would be left at a command prompt and had to start the windows manuallySep 09 00:43
MinceRmacos "classic" always sucked anywaySep 09 00:44
MinceRit never even got preemptive multitaskingSep 09 00:44
MinceRsomething the sinclair QL got pretty early :>Sep 09 00:44
MinceReven windblows got some form of itSep 09 00:44
MinceRcrApple had to steal BSD and Mach to do itSep 09 00:44
MinceRand what multitasking they did have was a horribly ugly hack, tooSep 09 00:44
MinceRit started out as MultiFinderSep 09 00:44
MinceRand it was the reason why all windows of the same app are raised at the same time even in osxSep 09 00:45
sebsebsebI did a quote and didn't get  anyones reply to that, but I did my comment,  that was a little while agoSep 09 00:45
cubezzzin the early 90's there was still AmigaSep 09 00:45
ThistleWebfor a sec I thought that was MuttFinder, which for some reason made me think of a dating service for ugly peepsSep 09 00:45
MinceRthere was amiga, about which i knew almost nothing. :)Sep 09 00:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Microsoft's much-hyped Hyper-V drivers in Linux 2.6.32 but likely *not* 2.6.33: 09 00:45
MinceRThistleWeb: maybe that's what the crApple cult is?Sep 09 00:46
*zlg (i=8fee69cc@gateway/web/freenode/x-emkzrfiblxfmxwzj) has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 00:46
cubezzzthere seems to be mono on Fedora 10, yes?Sep 09 00:46
cubezzzI don't remember installing itSep 09 00:46
sebsebseb[23:50] <sebsebseb> [22:11] <wallclimber> when windows was new, everyone thought it would get better, so they cut microsoft a lot of slackSep 09 00:46
ThistleWebcubezzz: I believe Fedora is a mono-free zone by defaultSep 09 00:46
sebsebseb[23:50] <sebsebseb> I guess so, plus other stuff was on it's way out, the BBC,  the Achorn, etcSep 09 00:46
MinceRAcornSep 09 00:46
sebsebsebMinceR: yes AcornSep 09 00:47
_Hicham_Fedora 11 has monoSep 09 00:47
MinceRthey even invented the panel, didn't they? :)Sep 09 00:47
_Hicham_because of TomboySep 09 00:47
_Hicham_Fedora 12 is mono freeSep 09 00:47
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I heard they are going to remove MOnoSep 09 00:47
_goblinMint is infested....Sep 09 00:47
cubezzz_Hicham_, yeah I have Tomboy on hereSep 09 00:47
_Hicham_Gnote looks greatSep 09 00:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bartzmer Does Not Trust Yahoo! Even Before Selling to Ballmer And this is who they appointed as CEO???Sep 09 00:47
MinceRat least i don't know any earlier appearance of the panel than ArthurSep 09 00:47
sebsebsebUbuntu seems to like Mono, since F-Spot and TomboySep 09 00:47
_goblineven down to Moonlight.Sep 09 00:47
_Hicham_cubezzz : r u on Fedora ?Sep 09 00:47
cubezzzyesSep 09 00:47
MinceR(unless we count the 'exposed desktop area' of windblows 1.0 which could only hold icons of minimized apps as a 'panel')Sep 09 00:48
sebsebsebcubezzz: Fedora 11 woudn't like my  partitions,  I got an error when I tried to install, it said it was probably a bugSep 09 00:48
sebsebsebcubezzz: I tried to do a custom  install with it keeping most of my partitionsSep 09 00:48
sebsebsebheh and I read Fedora 11  was meant to have loads of the installer bugs  fixedSep 09 00:48
sebsebseblater onSep 09 00:48
Will_goblin:  I've known about Mint and mono, but I still refer new Linux users to it.Sep 09 00:48
cubezzzreading about Tomboy nowSep 09 00:48
sebsebsebthere's  an alternative to Tomboy that doesn't use  MonoSep 09 00:49
_Hicham_sebsebseb : did u download Fedora 11 final ?Sep 09 00:49
sebsebseb_Hicham_: yesSep 09 00:49
sebsebseband burnt to DVD and got the errorSep 09 00:49
cubezzzI sure don't remember installing Tomboy thoughSep 09 00:49
sebsebsebI even tried  a magazine DVD with Fedora 11 on it  later on, and same thingSep 09 00:49
sebsebseband I thought I would get the same errorSep 09 00:49
_Hicham_sebsebseb : what was the error ?Sep 09 00:49
sebsebseb_Hicham_: didn't write it downSep 09 00:50
WillI don't want new users to be the slightest bit unsettled, and Mint goes beyond Ubuntu to preinstall things like codecs and flashSep 09 00:50
_Hicham_sebsebseb : u should have filed a bugSep 09 00:50
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I think I have seen you around in  another channal?Sep 09 00:50
ThistleWebMint is also what I recommend for new usersSep 09 00:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard indeedSep 09 00:50
sebsebsebbug reports could have done, but I guess screw Fedora 11, if it won't let me install itSep 09 00:50
ThistleWebmint xfce is gloriousSep 09 00:51
_Hicham_sebsebseb : I go to other channels occasionallySep 09 00:51
cubezzzTomboy.exe hmmmSep 09 00:51
trmancololSep 09 00:51
WillI say that because some of the people I've shown Mint to are the kind that would have a panic attack if someone replaced their blue e with Firefox.  They literally wouldn't be able to get on the internet after that.Sep 09 00:51
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I did try  to get some help with the  Fedora issue in their channal, but no luckSep 09 00:51
cubezzzTomboy.exe is a MS WIndows executableSep 09 00:51
_Hicham_cubezzz : linked to MS dllSep 09 00:52
_Hicham_those dlls call the mono runtimeSep 09 00:52
ThistleWebwhy would an exe be in a linux distro by default?Sep 09 00:52
sebsebsebat the moment I am running   well   what should have been  Karmic  Alpha 5  after  doing the updates   for alpha 4, but  I guess that's now how it works when alpha,  since  I  don't for example have this  new log in screen that I heard aboutSep 09 00:52
sebsebseb,but yeah alpha = bugs and thatSep 09 00:52
sebsebsebnot how aboveSep 09 00:53
_Hicham_too bad that u missed Fedora 11Sep 09 00:53
*sebsebseb nearly left Ubuntu, because of their stupid edited FUSA (Fast User Account Switcher), which resulted in them removing shutdown and logout from the system menu, where it's meant to beSep 09 00:54
sebsebsebapparantly there may be a way to add that back by editing gconf or something, but I don't knowSep 09 00:54
Willsebsebseb: I haven't even upgraded that far yet.Sep 09 00:54
sebsebsebI mean only way to get it back would be to remove fusa otherwise, but really I want both  things like Ubuntu 8.10Sep 09 00:54
sebsebsebWill: what are you using?Sep 09 00:54
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I didn't  miss outSep 09 00:54
Will8.04 LTS.Sep 09 00:54
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I vm'd itSep 09 00:54
WillI just never got around to updating.Sep 09 00:55
cubezzzis Tomboy open source?Sep 09 00:55
sebsebseb_Hicham_: and that,  plus  even  booted a DVD from a magazine that had Fedora 11 on it, later onSep 09 00:55
_Hicham_did it work on the vm ?Sep 09 00:55
sebsebsebWill: well 8.10 is a nice release, unless  Internet won't work on it,  that's the other computerSep 09 00:55
sebsebsebWill: 9.04  is a not that good releaseSep 09 00:55
sebsebseb_Hicham_: yesSep 09 00:56
Willsebsebseb: And I kinda want to see what it is like to stay on an LTS, since that's the way I'd have to sell it to corporate people.Sep 09 00:56
*GoodStudent (n=GoodStud@ has left #boycottnovellSep 09 00:56
sebsebsebWill: well no Ext4 for you thenSep 09 00:56
sebsebsebExt4 is a bit hmm in 9.04, because of the kernel they have,  9.10 will use by defaultSep 09 00:56
sebsebseband 10.04 is the next LTS and that will have by defaultSep 09 00:56
cubezzzok, yum remove tomboy then until I know what the score isSep 09 00:57
WillThere are things Ubuntu could do better about making certain key parts of the LTS release not get so stale over time (Firefox, OpenOffice, etc)Sep 09 00:57
sebsebsebWill: indeed they  only do security  updatesSep 09 00:57
WillI just updated them manually, but not everyone will be able to do that.Sep 09 00:57
_Hicham_they can't update those packagesSep 09 00:57
sebsebsebmaybe jono will see this now,  now that I highlited him, he works for CanonicalSep 09 00:57
_Hicham_otherwise, it won't be an LTSSep 09 00:57
sebsebseb_Hicham_: maybe he has highlighting disabledSep 09 00:58
MinceRor he isn't watchingSep 09 00:58
_Hicham_sebsebseb : u have to recompile FUSASep 09 00:58
sebsebsebMinceR: yep or thatSep 09 00:58
*jono readsSep 09 00:58
WillHicham:  understood, and by default I don't think they should.  But they could also point to a central cluster of PPAs or something like that for people that want to upgrade apps while staying on an LTS.Sep 09 00:58
_Hicham_there are lots of PPAs WillSep 09 00:59
_Hicham_u can get anything u want from PPAsSep 09 00:59
ThistleWebone confusing part I've seen with ubuntu ppa's is that there;s often several of them for the same app, so you don;t know which to useSep 09 00:59
WillAnd my sources.conf file shows itSep 09 00:59
ThistleWebVLC for oneSep 09 00:59
_Hicham_it depends on packagersSep 09 01:00
_Hicham_and their reputationSep 09 01:00
sebsebseb_Hicham_: recompile FUSA???Sep 09 01:00
_Hicham_sebsebseb : yes, without the patchesSep 09 01:00
Willsebsebseb:  I've been waiting for ext4 to settle out for a release or two, but I've looking forward to it.Sep 09 01:01
sebsebseb_Hicham_: so that's what I would have to do on 9.10, to have like 8.10,  system menu,  and fusaSep 09 01:01
sebsebseb_Hicham_: for logout and shutdownSep 09 01:01
Willsebsebseb:  why do you say 9.04 is not good?Sep 09 01:01
_Hicham_u have to recompile FUSA and probably gnome-panelSep 09 01:02
sebsebsebWill: ,because  Ext4 isn't  done properly in it,  what's new let's see,  KDE 4.2,   this  fusa thing I am on about in Gnome,    a  black log in screen that I don't like,    the  background changer effect in Gnome :)   and you can put like colour at the top and bottom if a background isn't big enough, again a Gnome featureSep 09 01:02
sebsebsebWill: did I miss something,  not  as such,Sep 09 01:03
sebsebsebit will change here and there under the hood as well of courseSep 09 01:03
sebsebseb,but  I am more interested in end user features :)Sep 09 01:03
WillHicham:  about the PPAs, they are there and they mostly work.  But if you don't know about them, you might not find out.  And you have to go hunting for them, which is sometimes it or miss.Sep 09 01:03
*schestowitz adds ThistleWeb to Twitter aggregator for BN IRCSep 09 01:03
sebsebsebWill: oh yeah and  the amount of people that want Firefox 3.5  in  9.04Sep 09 01:04
ThistleWebdoes that mean my tweets will appear here?Sep 09 01:04
sebsebsebthing is since there security updates only systemSep 09 01:04
sebsebsebWill:  they don't just provide the proper  Firefox 3.5,  instead they got  a shiretoko  which is   rather simaller to the final, but it has the development logoSep 09 01:04
sebsebseband  newbies tend to want the  proepr Firefox branding and all that for sureSep 09 01:04
Willsebsebseb: I used Ubuntuzilla to update to 3.5 on 8.04Sep 09 01:05
sebsebsebWill: to be honest this PPA system  is a bit of a joke really,  surely it would be better if  for major packages,   they had updates from the repo,  that weren't just security updatesSep 09 01:05
sebsebsebso  yeah Firefox, Open Office,  that kind of thingSep 09 01:05
sebsebsebwith 9.04 it's Firefox 3.5  that many people want,   with 8.10 it was Open Office 3Sep 09 01:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz the myhrvold story is now on slashdot front page 09 01:06
sebsebsebWill: also I have read  that  really ppa's should  normalley  be recommended to  experienced users,  because things can sometimes go wrong as a result of themSep 09 01:06
ThistleWebit'd be nice to somehow set the ppa's to be standby setups, where peeps could use a newer ppa version of an app until it got to that point in the normal repos, at which point it'd switch overSep 09 01:07
_Hicham_Ubuntu is always missing a major upstream updateSep 09 01:07
ThistleWebthey're a good idea on the wholeSep 09 01:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Two slashdot front page stories in a day! the latter slashdotted NotN, which got 35,000 hits so farSep 09 01:07
WillIt's release cycles aren't quite in sync with OpenOffice, etc. some times. (most times)Sep 09 01:07
_Hicham_sebsebseb : do u know how to recompile packages ?Sep 09 01:07
Willsebsebseb:  here's the thing.  I agree with only security updates by default for LTS.  Because that's taking the Debian stable "rock-solid" approach.  New features mean new potential bugs.Sep 09 01:07
sebsebsebjono: Construcitve  negative  Ubuntu feedback above,   maybe you can help  get something done about some of it as well :)Sep 09 01:08
ThistleWebsebsebseb: thats because you're trusting your system to another user and their skills, integrity etc rather than the official teamSep 09 01:08
WillBut, I also think there should be the option to upgrade the big stuff.Sep 09 01:08
jonosebsebseb, can you summarize the issue to me?Sep 09 01:08
sebsebsebjono: Which issue?Sep 09 01:08
Willjono: are you an ubuntu dev?Sep 09 01:08
jonoI don't understand what you are asking from meSep 09 01:09
ThistleWebjono is My Community with UbuntuSep 09 01:09
jonoI am the Ubuntu Community ManagerSep 09 01:09
ThistleWebMr*Sep 09 01:09
ThistleWeband a thoroughly nice blokeSep 09 01:09
_Hicham_great that to have u here jonoSep 09 01:09
Willjono:  well, we were talking a little about the PPA system with some ideas.  Is that what you mean?Sep 09 01:09
jonothanks ThistleWeb _Hicham_  :-)Sep 09 01:10
ThistleWebwhen he's not growling into a mic* ;)Sep 09 01:10
jonoThistleWeb, heheSep 09 01:10
jonowhat about PPAs?Sep 09 01:10
trmancoppa's are greatSep 09 01:10
sebsebsebjono: Oh  I guess I am not really asking anything as such,   was just saying why I think 9.04 is a bit of a bad release,   and  how I think it would be better if major stuff  got updated in the repo such as Firefox,  and Open Office and such,  rather than  the use a ppa  for  later version thing,  because of security updates only,   or in the case of 9.04 for Firefox get ShiretokoSep 09 01:10
Willjono:  Well, here's my takeSep 09 01:10
schestowitz"Re: Ubuntu Forums compromised?"Sep 09 01:11
schestowitz> Hi, I've been reading the BoycottNovell site and find it verySep 09 01:11
schestowitz> interesting. I've been using Ubuntu and hanging round the Ubuntu ForumsSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> since April 2008, never used FOSS before that. In the past six months orSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> so I've noticed a change in the tone and the types of comments I see inSep 09 01:11
trmancoSRU doesn't allow stuff like that to happen I thinkSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> the Community Cafe <>.Sep 09 01:11
schestowitz>Sep 09 01:11
schestowitz> There's been a lot more people praising Windows (especially Vista 7) andSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> some people getting very prickly and aggressive at any posts thatSep 09 01:11
sebsebsebjono: security updates  only  is  good for most packages,  but   for major stuff, people tend to want the latest,  latest Firefox,  latest Open Office etc,  and in Windows oh  they can have it really easileySep 09 01:11
schestowitz> criticise Windows. That's not so bad, but the worrying thing is some ofSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> them identify themselves as "Ubuntu Forums Staff". This guy inSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> particular, Hymn to Life, seems like a total Windows fanboy:Sep 09 01:11
schestowitz> 09 01:11
schestowitz>Sep 09 01:11
jonosebsebseb, it doesnt get updated in the repo as we have a Stable Release Policy - making major revisions causes too many regressionsSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> It's all a little worrying, so I thought I'd mention it to you. ItSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> really looks to me like Ubuntu Forums have been targeted for intensiveSep 09 01:11
schestowitz> "perception management" in recent times.Sep 09 01:11
schestowitzThey do this in many forums, especially before major releases (for the past decades).  Can you provide examples?Sep 09 01:11
Willjono:  I'm still on Ubuntu 8.04.  In the time since that, things like Firefox and OpenOffice have gotten pretty stale.  I agree about the decision to only do sec updates to prevent regressions.Sep 09 01:11
schestowitz^got this message some minutes ago BTWSep 09 01:11
schestowitzI wouldn't do much with it lacking examples...Sep 09 01:12
Willjono:  but, for those that don't mind taking a slight chance, it would be good to have a way to update at least the big things.Sep 09 01:12
Willjono:  And I think most of it is already in placeSep 09 01:12
Willjono:  The PPAs.Sep 09 01:12
_Hicham_jono : the thing is before featurefreeze, upstream projects schedule should be taken into accountSep 09 01:12
_Hicham_to make Ubuntu development version really a development versionSep 09 01:13
_Hicham_and be synced with upstream projectsSep 09 01:13
Willjono:  The problem is, the PPAs aren't always well advertised to new users, and hunting for a PPA can be a little hit or miss.Sep 09 01:13
_Hicham_I mean major onesSep 09 01:13
jonoWill, if you prefer to update big pieces, I would recommend Debian UnstableSep 09 01:13
jonoit may suit you betterSep 09 01:13
sebsebsebjono: yeah something better than ppa's for major stuff,   something more supported and more offical,   like a proper repo,  main multiverse, etc,  something like thatSep 09 01:13
jono_Hicham_, it is, our schedule is based around GNOMESep 09 01:14
jonoWill, yeah we need to do a better job with PPAsSep 09 01:14
Willjono:  I've updated them myself (debs or src when necessary):  I'm just trying to think of ways to make it simpler for users that might not know how to do stuff like that.Sep 09 01:14
jonosebsebseb, the problem is resources: if we have our developers work on PPA updates for major software, they are not doing distribution work on the next releaseSep 09 01:15
jonosorry folks, I am going to have to runSep 09 01:15
jonohave a callSep 09 01:15
jonotake care!Sep 09 01:15
Willjono:  thanksSep 09 01:15
sebsebsebjono: I meant a repo that can be added for later major packages,  rather than having to use a ppa, or  install in some other way, from source or whateverSep 09 01:15
Willjono:  and your reply to seb is true.  That's why I'm trying to think of improvements that minimize the amount of new effort.Sep 09 01:16
Willjono: but instead tie together what is already there.Sep 09 01:16
trmancosebsebseb: backports existSep 09 01:16
sebsebsebjono: a repo that can be added I mean enabled, a bit like backports for example, but for major  versions of  packagesSep 09 01:16
trmancothey are just not activeSep 09 01:16
trmancobackports repoSep 09 01:16
sebsebsebtrmanco: backports won't give people the  very latest Firefox or Open Office, or whatever  people are going on about at the timeSep 09 01:17
trmancoit doesn't, but it can be used for that kind of softwareSep 09 01:17
trmancofor people who want it, they just need a tickSep 09 01:17
sebsebsebjono: maybe instead of  adding it to  it's own repo,  add those package updates to backports or something,   anyway your away, but hopefuly you wil read this later onSep 09 01:17
schestowitz [photosSep 09 01:18
Willtrmanco:  Would doing something like that be true to the meaning of backports?Sep 09 01:19
trmancoyesSep 09 01:19
WillI mean, isn't a backport when you take a few features or bugfixes of a new version and port them into an old version?Sep 09 01:19
trmancojust fetch the packages from ubuntu+1 and add it into backports of ubuntuSep 09 01:19
trmanconot only thatSep 09 01:20
trmancobuntu does that for security updatesSep 09 01:20
Willtrmanco:  If I seem like I'm flipflopping, it's because I also understand and agree with why Ubuntu LTS does what it does by default.Sep 09 01:20
trmancothey cherry pick patches and patch the current releaseSep 09 01:20
sebsebsebWill: I had 8.04 on the other computer for a whileSep 09 01:21
trmancoI remember in that specific version (8.04) that a lot of people requested an updated version of transmission into backports and it happenedSep 09 01:21
sebsebsebWill: for it's usage it was fine,  because  of  who was going to manly use it, my little brother,  for some games and yeahSep 09 01:22
trmancoit wasn't just patchesSep 09 01:22
sebsebsebWill: ,but  yeah 8.04 does get old, eventaully I decided to upgrade to 8.10,  and got the Internet connection issueSep 09 01:22
trmancoit was a complete new version backported from 8.10Sep 09 01:22
WillAnd I know full well I could just upgrade to 9.04 (probably will to 9.10), but a lot of businesses won't be happy with changing software every 6 months.  But the LTS cycle might make sense to them.  So I need to know about it before I try to pitch it.Sep 09 01:22
sebsebsebWill: when 8.10 came out I thought 8.10 wasn't  that worth upgrading to,   but then this  9.04 thing came out, and I  thought for that computer 8.10 would be better reallySep 09 01:22
sebsebsebnice to have auto shutdown and that :)Sep 09 01:22
sebsebsebone minute and it shut downs  unless you tell it to do it already or restart or whateverSep 09 01:23
trmancothat feature saved me once from shutting down the computer accidentallySep 09 01:23
trmancothanks to it's 60 second holdSep 09 01:24
sebsebsebWill: I helped two not that technical people get set up with Ubuntu,   and  by what I had seen in 9.04 and that,  9.04 was so  not worth them  using as their installSep 09 01:24
trmancoI pressed the power button by accidentSep 09 01:24
sebsebsebWill: they both use 8.10 at the moment,  altough this woman has 8.04 on  an old lap top at the moment as wellSep 09 01:24
sebsebsebWill: newer is not always better, but  I think even for business the LTS,  could get a bit old,  when  they  aren't  giving  new versions of Firefox and Open Office and such from the repoSep 09 01:24
schestowitzEven decades later, Cosmos is still a brilliant programme.Sep 09 01:25
Willsebsebseb:  Think about how many businesses still use IE6, even though they have nothing that specifically requires IE.Sep 09 01:25
schestowitz 09 01:25
sebsebsebWill: well some do,  stupid business apps that were made for IE onlySep 09 01:26
sebsebseboh that dicussion earlier is over I guess, but  this is my last quoteSep 09 01:26
sebsebseb[22:14] <ThistleWeb> wallclimber: one area MS have been very successful in, is making people afraid of their PCs. When something goes wrong it's always the users fault for clicking on something, not MS fault for letting it auto execute and install whatever malwareSep 09 01:27
sebsebsebindeed at thatSep 09 01:27
Willsebsebseb and wallclimer: agreedSep 09 01:27
sebsebsebWill: to what?Sep 09 01:27
WillMS is most of the reason so many people are still scared of computers.Sep 09 01:27
Willafraid they might "break" it just by touching it, or just generally not very comfortable around it.Sep 09 01:28
sebsebsebWill: yeah and the  anti virus companys and anti spyware companies are meant to help them, become less scaired?  ,but really they take advantage of them, and suck money out of them?Sep 09 01:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] From the press Im reading Windows 7 parties are being slated already! Who wants to be associated with them? #microsoft #vista #windows #xpSep 09 01:28
sebsebsebschestowitz: is  BNc  a user or a bot?Sep 09 01:29
trmancobotSep 09 01:29
WillI might be scared too if I had a car that was prone to acting up, stalling out, etc., and the hood was fused shut so that I couldn't even tinker in there and fix it.Sep 09 01:29
sebsebsebtrmanco: that's what I thought, since not seen them actsaully talk hereSep 09 01:29
trmancohe talksSep 09 01:29
sebsebsebtrmanco: well in that case maybe I have hmmSep 09 01:30
trmancoI'll show youSep 09 01:30
sebsebsebtrmanco: the notice stuff doesn't  count as takling in the channalSep 09 01:30
ThistleWebnot surprised it's being slated, it's essentially buying friends. Anyone who can't get friends on their own merits does not deserve to have any, bought friends will tell you what you want, not what they meanSep 09 01:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] See!!Sep 09 01:30
trmanco:)Sep 09 01:30
sebsebsebtrmanco: thought a notice hmmSep 09 01:31
sebsebsebthroughSep 09 01:31
trmancoyeah, it just a twitb0tSep 09 01:31
Willwhat exactly does one do at a Windows 7 party, anyway?Sep 09 01:31
trmancoplay monkey games and eat junk foodSep 09 01:31
sebsebsebWill: Pay Microsoft fan boys the entrance fee :DSep 09 01:31
WillInstall an OS?  How fun is that? (Windows, OSX, or Linux)?Sep 09 01:32
trmancoand cheap boozeSep 09 01:32
WillAnd then sit around a laptop...Sep 09 01:32
sebsebsebWhat do people do at the Ubuntu release partys?Sep 09 01:32
-_Hicham_/#boycottnovell-sebsebsebSep 09 01:32
Willsebsebseb: toucheSep 09 01:32
ThistleWebWill: it's like a digital swingers party, where peeps swap viruses instead of wivesSep 09 01:32
trmancow00tSep 09 01:32
sebsebsebWill: What?Sep 09 01:32
trmancohmmSep 09 01:33
Willsebsebseb:  good point thereSep 09 01:33
_Hicham_sebsebseb : they drink beer and dance with chicksSep 09 01:33
trmancohehSep 09 01:33
trmanco:DSep 09 01:33
_Hicham_Ubuntu hires some chicks to animate the partySep 09 01:33
trmancoHire?Sep 09 01:33
_Hicham_it is Shuttleworth himself who pays the chicksSep 09 01:33
sebsebsebUbuntu you meant CanonicalSep 09 01:33
trmancono payingSep 09 01:33
trmancoit's freeSep 09 01:33
trmanco:-pSep 09 01:34
_Hicham_wearing all the T-Shirt : I do it with UbuntuSep 09 01:34
*Balrog_ ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 01:34
trmancothey communitySep 09 01:34
trmancothe*Sep 09 01:34
_Hicham_so everybody is doing it with UbuntuSep 09 01:34
*Will wonders if anyone might try to crash a Win7 party with a dual boot Ubuntu laptop.Sep 09 01:36
trmancokubuntu actuallySep 09 01:36
_Hicham_Win7 is based on UbuntuSep 09 01:36
trmancoWill: I've already thought of going to one of those parties dressed as a tuxSep 09 01:36
*Will thinks Kubuntu would be even better to use for the Win7 partySep 09 01:36
trmancoand it wasn't just meSep 09 01:36
trmancoLOLSep 09 01:36
sebsebseb_Hicham_: Win7 based on Ubuntu hmm,   I know your joking here, but  what's funny about that?Sep 09 01:36
trmancoindeedSep 09 01:36
WillBring a KDE4 laptop to the party and see how long it takes for people to figure out you aren't running Windows 7Sep 09 01:37
trmancololSep 09 01:37
sebsebsebor  impress them with Compiz FushionSep 09 01:37
sebsebsebor somethingSep 09 01:37
trmancoI'll even add the orb instead of the kSep 09 01:37
trmancothe windows orbSep 09 01:37
_Hicham_Chromium code is bigger than Mozilla's CodeSep 09 01:38
_Hicham_it fits on a whole cdSep 09 01:38
_Hicham_and it is just a browserSep 09 01:38
_Hicham_while Mozill's code is a lot of componentsSep 09 01:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Watched District 9 the other day, it's an awesome movie. Loving that it's set in SA too, instead of the usual Hollywood settings. http:/ ...Sep 09 01:38
trmancothe git has unnecessary stuffSep 09 01:39
_Hicham_browser, mail client, calendar and some other stuffSep 09 01:39
trmancothat's why it's so bigSep 09 01:39
_Hicham_trmanco : it is not gitSep 09 01:39
_Hicham_it is the tarballSep 09 01:39
trmancowowSep 09 01:39
trmancowell, tarball is identical to gitSep 09 01:39
trmancowithout the db's and other junkSep 09 01:39
trmancoin a compiled state it's smallSep 09 01:40
_Hicham_it is the same size as firefoxSep 09 01:40
_Hicham_no, it is moreSep 09 01:41
Willtrmanco: fair warning though:  If you use the latest KDE4 instead of 4.0 or 4.1, people might guess that it isn't Windows sooner.Sep 09 01:41
_Hicham_because Firefox with XUL bundled with it, is 9MBSep 09 01:41
Willbecause it will crash less often.Sep 09 01:41
trmancohehSep 09 01:41
trmancook guys, time for me to goSep 09 01:42
trmancognSep 09 01:42
WillgnSep 09 01:42
sebsebsebtrmanco: byeSep 09 01:42
_Hicham_gn trmancoSep 09 01:46
WillYou know, about those Best Buy ads...  It's all about Windows vs. Linux.  Very little in there about the Mac.Sep 09 01:46
ThistleWebdo best buy sell macs?Sep 09 01:46
WillyesSep 09 01:46
ThistleWebI reckon most peeps considering macs would go to a mac storeSep 09 01:46
_Hicham_sebsebseb : is that u ?Sep 09 01:46
sebsebseb_Hicham_: noSep 09 01:47
WillThistleWeb: but here's what's strange about it to me:  MS Best Buy training against Linux, which Best Buy doesn't sell anyway, but nothing against Macs, which Best Buy does sell and which might take the place of a PC sale.Sep 09 01:48
sebsebseb_Hicham_: I don't speak FrenchSep 09 01:48
sebsebseb_Hicham_: there has been some French guy or whatever using my name before on this network though, in some small  channal that I got booted from when I complained about  using my name.Sep 09 01:49
sebsebsebso maybe  the  person behind that websiteSep 09 01:49
ThistleWebWill: if they buy either windows or a mac from best buy, best buy still winSep 09 01:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "cringe worthy" is how many are describing the idea of Windows 7 parties... and I thought Clippy was hated. #windows #microsoft #vista #xpSep 09 01:50
ThistleWebif they;ve been shopping around and seen a cheaper linux, best buy cant sell them linux, so they lose a saleSep 09 01:51
Willmakes senseSep 09 01:51
ThistleWebMS have cut their profits so much on netbooks that they cant even price match a cheaper linux netbookSep 09 01:51
schestowitzsebsebseb: Bnc is a Perl scriptSep 09 01:51
ThistleWebso they lose if the customer chooses linuxSep 09 01:52
ThistleWebhence the lies and deceptionSep 09 01:52
sebsebsebschestowitz: ah okSep 09 01:52
WillThistleWeb:  that brings me to a point I've been meaning to bring up.Sep 09 01:52
WillYou know how Adobe won't release a Linux version of Photoshop?  And a few other cases like that?Sep 09 01:53
WillIn the absence of Linux versions, we have things like the GimpSep 09 01:54
WillAnd Gimp will continue improving and getting betterSep 09 01:54
Will(It's already more than good enough for the things I do with it)Sep 09 01:55
ThistleWebphotoshop relies on companies who cant afford not to get caught with proper licenced versions. Corporations all use Windows for regular office tasks, and Macs for design stuffSep 09 01:55
sebsebsebWill: apparantly eventaully there will be an online PhotoshopSep 09 01:55
ThistleWebas long as that's the norm, those are the only 2 platforms Adobe will targetSep 09 01:56
WillBut my point is that once the opensource equivalents in various areas get to a certain point, might they start replacing the proprietary stuff outright?Sep 09 01:56
WillLeaving Adobe et al painted into a corner?Sep 09 01:56
ThistleWebthey know that something like 80% of photshop installs are unlicenced but they dont careSep 09 01:56
ThistleWebof courseSep 09 01:56
sebsebsebThistleWeb: Microsoft same kind of thingSep 09 01:57
ThistleWebsebsebseb: exactlySep 09 01:57
sebsebsebthey know a lot of their stuff is  pirated, but they don't care that much, because people still get locked inSep 09 01:57
WillWhereas if Adobe had come out with a Photoshop for Linux from the getgo, Gimp might never have progressed to that point.Sep 09 01:57
ThistleWebany company being audited and found to have unliceneced copies of expensive software get hammered in fines and bad PRSep 09 01:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin my windows 7 drinking game page is at about 30k hits so far todaySep 09 01:57
sebsebsebThistleWeb: PR??Sep 09 01:58
ThistleWebpr = public relationsSep 09 01:58
ThistleWebbad pressSep 09 01:58
sebsebsebThistleWeb: yeah  I  thought I had seen  PR or something like that being used before, but in that case I coudn't remember what it meantSep 09 01:58
sebsebsebyep if business or  goverment or   schools  use pirated software they can get in a lot of troubleSep 09 01:59
sebsebseband  quite a lot of schools don't really have that much money, but yet they are wasting it on Microsoft and other commercial softwareSep 09 01:59
WillMicrosoft practically gives it away to schools though.  Office for $20.  Get the kiddies hooked young.Sep 09 02:00
sebsebsebmoney they could be spending on something else, that's better for the schoolSep 09 02:00
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")Sep 09 02:00
sebsebsebWill: well yeah now daysSep 09 02:00
sebsebsebit's all part of the vender lock inSep 09 02:00
sebsebsebthey aren't doing it to be nice reallySep 09 02:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @davidgerard it with balloons or without?Sep 09 02:00
ThistleWebsebsebseb: I remember a lil local council near me who had an employee install like a single licence XP on lots of new PCs because he didnt know better, and he was "saving money"Sep 09 02:00
sebsebsebThistleWeb: and what happended?Sep 09 02:01
ThistleWebsomeone grassed them, they got an auditSep 09 02:01
ThistleWeband got hammered in finesSep 09 02:01
sebsebsebThistleWeb: remind me what an audit is (assuming I know heh)Sep 09 02:01
ThistleWebin addition to the guy and his boss losing their jobs, they had to spend even more tax payers money on buying new licences for every PC they had unlicenced installs onSep 09 02:02
ThistleWeban audit is where the officials turn up and check each PC, with every serial number on every peice of software, and check whether you're registered to it, if it's volume licenced, are you going over your number etcSep 09 02:03
sebsebsebokSep 09 02:04
sebsebsebI asked somewhere else as wellSep 09 02:04
sebsebsebyeah check to make sure it's all legalSep 09 02:04
ThistleWebmy cue would be "well, we cant afford to buy all these licences, I guess we'll just move the whole lot to Linux"Sep 09 02:04
Willmakes me wonder what they'd do in an office run on open source.  Would they understand that there is no serial number?Sep 09 02:04
sebsebsebThistleWeb: oh yes those threats have been sued beforeSep 09 02:04
sebsebsebThistleWeb: by companies that don't really care about the freedomsSep 09 02:04
sebsebsebhoping to get a better deal on Microsoft softwareSep 09 02:04
sebsebsebused not sued aboveSep 09 02:05
ThistleWebWill: the auditors are only looking for software on their employers booksSep 09 02:05
ThistleWebif they're not being paid to look after openoffice's interests, they wont even check an openoffice install, regardless of whether it's open or closed sourceSep 09 02:05
ThistleWebthey exist to make money, so they want to focus on stuff they can take action onSep 09 02:06
ThistleWebif they find infringementsSep 09 02:06
ThistleWebif MS are paying them, they'll look at every peice of MS software on every PC in your companySep 09 02:07
sebsebsebokSep 09 02:08
ThistleWebit wont be the company themselves doing the audits, it'll be a separate company paid to get resultsSep 09 02:09
sebsebsebThistleWeb: yepSep 09 02:09
ThistleWebin addition to examining the PC's they will crawl over the paperwork, receipts etc relating to software purchasing / licencingSep 09 02:10
ThistleWebI'd imagine everything they find would be checked at the vendor end too, to make sure it matchesSep 09 02:10
ThistleWebthen a report sent to the software vendor, like MS, who would then send in the lawyersSep 09 02:11
ThistleWebwhere you are not in a good position to negotiate anything other than a hard shaftingSep 09 02:12
sebsebsebThistleWeb: and then  those people might switch to opensource/freesoftware or notSep 09 02:12
Willsebsebseb: you'd think getting burned like that would be the best pitch ever for open source, but then people sometimes have a surprisingly high tolerance for abuse at the hands of proprietary software.Sep 09 02:13
ThistleWebaudits can be a great seller of FOSS, but only if theres someone in the company who knows about it and can suggest it as an alternative, if not, these things are sold as a "there's no other choice" thingSep 09 02:14
ThistleWebcompanies also need their daily routine to continue relentlessSep 09 02:14
WillThistleWeb:  I'm thinking about a long term switch with an initial seed trial.Sep 09 02:15
ThistleWebso any hassle of having to devote time and resources to seeking alternates quickly can be a turn off, when they can sign a cheque and turn what they have into legal versionsSep 09 02:15
WillNot change the minute the audit is overSep 09 02:15
ThistleWebMS like to ensure that peeps think MS is the only game in town tooSep 09 02:16
ThistleWebto ensure that all retailers sell only WindowsSep 09 02:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin 09 02:16
sebsebsebThistleWeb: or have the alternatives hidden away like DellSep 09 02:16
ThistleWebsebsebseb: exactlySep 09 02:17
sebsebsebThistleWeb:  well that's obvious enough for us,  but we know it's there,  the average Dell customer doesn't,  well I assume you knew it was there :DSep 09 02:18
WillThistleWeb:  In my case, I got exposed to Linux in school.  But for other people, there is the internet.  I'm wondering how many people, thoroughly dissatisfied with Vista, have ever some much as googled to try to find something better or at least see what their options are.Sep 09 02:18
sebsebsebThistleWeb: well  I assume that  you knew, that it is there, aboveSep 09 02:19
ThistleWebWill: they will seek other MS options to escape vista....which (to them) is windows 7Sep 09 02:19
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ThistleWebsebsebseb: yepSep 09 02:19
sebsebseblittle mistakes here and there,   is rather fine on IRC, but  I still like to correct myself, when things don't quite make sense properlySep 09 02:19
WillDell took down their Ubuntu desktop a while backSep 09 02:20
sebsebsebWill: oh?Sep 09 02:20
WillThey promised that they were only refreshing it and it would be back in JulySep 09 02:20
ThistleWebIRC is a live chat, where things sometimes get mixed up, typos etc It's like any live conversationSep 09 02:20
sebsebsebI  read   that  pre insatlled Ubuntu Dell  is also available in Holland,  or something like thatSep 09 02:21
WillStill nothing, though a source on the internet claims that there really is something in the works between Canonical and Dell and that new models are still on the way.Sep 09 02:21
ThistleWebthe point is "being understood"Sep 09 02:21
sebsebsebThistleWeb: exactlySep 09 02:21
ThistleWebit always amazes me when people chat in real time in English, when it's not their first language, and speak it well tooSep 09 02:21
ThistleWebI learned a lil Spanish but couldn't hold a convo in itSep 09 02:22
Willsebsebseb: If you want Linux preinstalled, try System76 or ZaReasonSep 09 02:22
ThistleWebyeah I hear a lot of good things about system76Sep 09 02:22
sebsebsebThistleWeb: yeah there was someone earlier, first I thought maybe it was some  teenager,  because of the gparted screenshot of Ubuntu with the Mac OS X look,  but  then  later I find out it  was someone from MalaysisiaSep 09 02:22
ThistleWebdann from tllts got a laptop from them a while backSep 09 02:23
sebsebsebThistleWeb: and  yeah there English  was pretty goodSep 09 02:23
sebsebsebThistleWeb: it seems a lot of the younger Ubuntu users,  want it to look like Mac OS XSep 09 02:23
ThistleWebfab from LO is another great exampleSep 09 02:23
sebsebsebThistleWeb: to be exact there were two screenshots,  the other of  computer, but this is also irelivantSep 09 02:24
sebsebsebmaking  Linux distros look like OS X hmmSep 09 02:25
sebsebsebI did it   quite a while ago for a bitSep 09 02:25
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Willsebsebseb: I really like the gnome-colors themeSep 09 02:25
ThistleWebosx does look stylish if you like that styleSep 09 02:25
sebsebsebWill: which theme?Sep 09 02:26
ThistleWebthemes are all personalSep 09 02:26
sebsebsebWill: gnome default or?Sep 09 02:26
Willsebsebseb:  It looks nice, and it isn't a Windows/OSX copycatSep 09 02:26
Willsebsebseb:  I'll get the linkSep 09 02:26
sebsebsebUbuntu has a nice enough default theme for Gnome reallySep 09 02:26
sebsebseband with a little bit of customzing of Gnome, it will be even betterSep 09 02:26
ThistleWebthere's a MacPup which is Puppy designed to mimic OSX in styleSep 09 02:26
Willsebsebseb: 09 02:27
sebsebsebthe log in screen I like blubuntu :)  which is in the repo,  but with this new gdm hmm  I am wondering about themesSep 09 02:27
sebsebsebthe new one that is in KarmicSep 09 02:27
WillShiki-Colors is the theme, Gnome-Colors is the icon set, and Arc-Colors is the GDM login themeSep 09 02:27
ThistleWebeven if it looks like osx, it's still linux, with all the freedom that entailsSep 09 02:27
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ThistleWeband it can be easily rethemed if you get bored with the osx themeSep 09 02:28
ThistleWebtry doing that with a macSep 09 02:28
Willsebsebseb:  Linux Mint uses the Green variant as it's default theme.Sep 09 02:28
WillThistleWeb:  I've used one, you can't.  All you can change is the wallpaper.Sep 09 02:28
ThistleWebthe mint 6 icons are the only default icons I've ever liked enough not to changeSep 09 02:29
schestowitzMore re: Ubuntu Forums shills:Sep 09 02:29
schestowitz> Well there's that guy on the forum staff I mentioned already, calledSep 09 02:29
sebsebsebWill: those screenshots look ok, but  I am not so keen on the darker themesSep 09 02:29
schestowitz> Hymn to Life, and this guy seems to be a shill:Sep 09 02:29
schestowitz> (Tristam Green).Sep 09 02:29
schestowitz> There's a whole bunch of them though, and it's never one particularSep 09 02:29
schestowitz> standout comment, it's a general pattern.... The thing aboutSep 09 02:29
schestowitz> astroturfing is that although it looks incriminating sometimes, it mightSep 09 02:29
schestowitz> just be a genuine Windows fan who also likes Linux - but in the past sixSep 09 02:29
schestowitz> months or so, the pro-Windows activity seems to have become more pronounced.Sep 09 02:29
schestowitzThanks. I've raised the issue with their community manager. I don't want to injure the team in a way that only disrupts the whole company (disrepute).Sep 09 02:29
schestowitzIt seems lke Mutex might be hereSep 09 02:30
ThistleWebfor me, the default theme on any dirtso means nothing as I always change it to suit my tastesSep 09 02:30
Willschestowitz:  which themes do you like best?  I always like stumbling upon really cool themes  (KDE or Gnome).Sep 09 02:30
sebsebsebWill: Mint is to green by default for my likeingSep 09 02:30
sebsebsebWill: and it's more newbie and all that by default reallySep 09 02:30
sebsebseband better to use real Ubuntu I thinkSep 09 02:30
ThistleWebgreen can be a delicate thing, the right balance and blend looks fresh and sweet, but it can look awful tooSep 09 02:31
sebsebsebWill: well I guess Mint is more newbie,   not used it properlySep 09 02:31
sebsebsebWill: only in vmSep 09 02:31
*ThistleWeb keeps switching between mint xfce and crunchbangSep 09 02:31
ThistleWebI've been tempted to break that pattern recently by trying ArchSep 09 02:32
Willsebsebseb:  true.  Mint does kind of hide things from you a little more than Ubuntu.  Maybe "hand-holding" or "software wizards" is the concept I'm looking for.Sep 09 02:32
WillI prefer stock Ubuntu for me.Sep 09 02:32
sebsebsebWill: Mandriva is more newbie than Ubuntu also really,  plus it has parantel controls,   which one of  Microsoft's anti  Linux thingeys, said  Linux does not haveSep 09 02:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : nice. I was gonna write about it in the morning.Sep 09 02:32
sebsebsebWill: well I haevn't used Mandriva properly,  plus  something happended with the vm or whatever it was hmmSep 09 02:33
Willsebsebseb:  whenever I do rock the boat on this machine, I'm probably going to give Mandriva a trial run before going to a buntu again.Sep 09 02:33
WillMandrake used to be :) ... Then it Mandriva became  :|, then :{ ..., and now I hear Mandriva is back to :>Sep 09 02:34
sebsebsebWill: parantal controls  maybe more than one anti Linux  thing from Microsoft said  that Linux distros don't have.    anyway yeah having one for Ubuntu in the repo at least,  would be good,  I don't think there is one in the repoSep 09 02:35
WillIf anyone would know somethine about parental controls for Linux, I'd think Helios would.Sep 09 02:37
sebsebsebThistleWeb: it's ashame that  Arch didn't work well in a vmSep 09 02:37
sebsebsebThistleWeb: someone helped me set up with the like very basic,  and then I try and load up the OS in vm, and it closes,  it was something to do with the kernel or whateverSep 09 02:37
ThistleWebarch seems mixedSep 09 02:38
ThistleWebas it's a rolling distro, I'd be wary of an upate breaking somethingSep 09 02:38
sebsebsebsome  of the Arch Linux users have  trolled  Ubuntu channals before as wellSep 09 02:39
sebsebsebit's nice to have choice  differnet distros and thatSep 09 02:39
schestowitzWill: OxygenSep 09 02:39
sebsebseb,but  Ubuntu is the one that has most chance at gaining a proper market share on the desktop I think,   I mean like 20 or 30% percentSep 09 02:39
sebsebsebso that's a good one to supportSep 09 02:40
ThistleWebubuntu is the juggernaut we should all get behind, regardless of whether we use it or notSep 09 02:40
ThistleWebeveryone else will benefit from it's increasing presenceSep 09 02:41
sebsebsebwell some people are worried  that if  Ubuntu gains to much of the marketSep 09 02:41
ThistleWebplenty will start with ubuntu, then move to a different distroSep 09 02:41
sebsebsebthat a lot of companies and such will be making for Ubuntu, but not aother distros as wellSep 09 02:41
ThistleWebif they make for ubuntu, ubuntu is FOSS, the code can be adapted to other distros to get them seamlessly working tooSep 09 02:42
WillThat, and the distros built on top of Debian/Ubuntu might not even need adaptationSep 09 02:43
ThistleWebWill: very likelySep 09 02:43
WillIt bewilders me why Linux distros fight (not compete, fight).  All it takes is for one distro to win.  Then all win.Sep 09 02:43
schestowitzHow Google Looks at Spam Complaints < >Sep 09 02:44
schestowitzI've sent them lists beforeSep 09 02:45
schestowitzThey handle spam sitesSep 09 02:45
WillThistleWeb:  If you go looking for older software that maybe hasn't been maintained as well, the only binaries you find are RH9, FC1,2 or something similar.  Nowadays, you usually have a much better chance of finding a deb than an rpm.Sep 09 02:47
sebsebsebWill: well  some people are worried that if Ubuntu gains  20% or 30%  market share,   that all distros lose  except one,  and that one can basically do whatever they likeSep 09 02:49
Willsebsebseb:  what I don't see is how any one distro can really dictate if all the code is open source.Sep 09 02:50
Willand besides, the alternative to one distro gaining 20-30% might be that all distros never get more than a small share (that collectively totals somewhere around 10-15%)Sep 09 02:52
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WillIt's not like Linux is going to die or wither if it doesn't increase market share, but still, a higher market share of Linux makes life easier for Linux users, and the diversity benefits the industry as a whole.Sep 09 02:54
schestowitz 09 02:54
schestowitzMicrosoft tries to sue Linux by proxy again?Sep 09 02:54
schestowitzThis criminal company...Sep 09 02:54
sebsebsebWill: well not everything in Ubuntu  is   freesoftware or open sourceSep 09 02:54
ThistleWebubuntu is creating a bigger and bigger wave, every other distro will benefit from it's wakeSep 09 02:54
bruce89Will: the lack of diversity would be good?Sep 09 02:55
Willbruce89: not lack of diversity.  More diversity.  Less monoculture.  ~30% split between Windows, OSX, and Linux.Sep 09 02:57
bruce89no, not Linux, UbuntuSep 09 02:57
bruce89so less diversity in the FOSS spaceSep 09 02:57
Willsebsebseb: good point there, but I'm guessing the power of Red Hat will counterbalance that somewhat.  If you make closed source code that runs only on a Debian derivative, you are ignoring the Red Hat market.Sep 09 02:59
bruce89I can see there is an issue with regard non-FOSS code being packaged on all sorts of distrosSep 09 02:59
Willbruce89:  the rise of one distro shouldn't kill off the others.  At worst, their situation probably would be no worse that it is now.  What would you suggest?Sep 09 03:00
bruce89well, to be frank, this is a non-issueSep 09 03:00
bruce89basically because FOSS will never get such a large shareSep 09 03:01
bruce89of course it will in certain circumstances, but not in normal peoples' housesSep 09 03:02
_Hicham_well, FOSS might get such a shareSep 09 03:02
Willin time.  years maybeSep 09 03:02
Willdecades, maybeSep 09 03:02
_Hicham_if it is 100% graphicalSep 09 03:02
sebsebsebyep yearsSep 09 03:02
sebsebseb10 years maybeSep 09 03:02
bruce89I don't refute it is getting higher, but I don't see it as an issueSep 09 03:02
_Hicham_like Mandriva, or SUSESep 09 03:02
bruce89I mean, if I was a developer, I'd like people to use my programs, but I also wouldn't care if they didn'tSep 09 03:03
sebsebseb_Hicham_: Surely the shell can be used in those as well?Sep 09 03:03
_Hicham_basically, if u add the hardware detection of Ubuntu with the ease of use of Mandriva and openSUSE, u will get a really user friendly systemSep 09 03:03
sebsebseb_Hicham_: also with Ubuntu people can normalley get by quite nicely not needing to use  the terminal, unless they got to configure hardware or something like thatSep 09 03:03
bruce89I don't see what U-word does to hardware detection, aside from bundling a bunch of other modulesSep 09 03:04
sebsebsebbruce89: yeah since you don't really care about market shareSep 09 03:04
sebsebsebbruce89: heh you done U-word in here now as well :DSep 09 03:04
_Hicham_there is nothing wrong with ubuntuSep 09 03:05
ThistleWebU-word? who mentioned U-bends? Did we swicth topics to plumbing?Sep 09 03:05
_Hicham_they are doing a great jobSep 09 03:05
Willbruce89:  The only magic thing about the U-word is that it tries to attack one of the achilles heels of Linux: marketing.Sep 09 03:05
_Hicham_exceptSep 09 03:05
_Hicham_they are not keeping up with upstreamSep 09 03:06
bruce89but they don't, it's just hypeSep 09 03:06
_Hicham_that is their main faultSep 09 03:06
_Hicham_bruce89 : do u have sthg against ubuntu ?Sep 09 03:06
bruce89well, I don't reallySep 09 03:06
_Hicham_why do u think that they r not doing their job well ?Sep 09 03:07
sebsebseb_Hicham_: he does to some extentSep 09 03:07
_Hicham_why is it so popular then ?Sep 09 03:07
bruce89I do worry about people confusing Ubuntu as the actual developers of everything that is bundledSep 09 03:07
ThistleWeb_Hicham_: the "U-word" thing kinda makes me think I smell a shillSep 09 03:07
_Hicham_bruce89 : we can't avoid thatSep 09 03:07
Willbruce89: a good concernSep 09 03:07
WillSince you see websites like "10 new features in $Ubuntu+1"Sep 09 03:08
bruce89I don't think the "Ubuntu App Store" will helpSep 09 03:08
Willand those are just features in the next Gnome releaseSep 09 03:08
_Hicham_bruce89 : how can they sell Ubuntu then ?Sep 09 03:08
bruce89it's up to themSep 09 03:08
_Hicham_it is not them who made it, it is them who packaged itSep 09 03:08
_Hicham_they make it clearSep 09 03:08
bruce89I was referring to Will's advertising of new features thingSep 09 03:08
Willbruce89:  acutally, I've found the app store concept to be the best way to explain Linux software installation to people.Sep 09 03:09
bruce89isn't it just a new UI to apt?Sep 09 03:10
Willbruce89:  Well, what I mean, separate from the Ubuntu App Store project, is that people can't seem to wrap their heads around software installation in Linux, then I say, "It's like the iphone", and a lightbulb magically comes on.Sep 09 03:11
bruce89I'm sure not everyone has an iPhoneSep 09 03:11
Willno, but even people that don't often know about it.Sep 09 03:11
Willand the app storeSep 09 03:12
bruce89but maybe it's part of the modern trend to not have a willingness to learn thingsSep 09 03:12
_Hicham_there is nothing wrong with an Ubuntu App StoreSep 09 03:12
bruce89apart from the naming, I don't mindSep 09 03:13
_Hicham_what is wrong with the naming ?Sep 09 03:13
bruce89also, I notice they yet again resist PackageKitSep 09 03:13
_Hicham_bruce89 : they don't resist PackageKitSep 09 03:14
_Hicham_they are studying its integrationSep 09 03:14
bruce89so why bother with Yet Another Package UI?Sep 09 03:14
_Hicham_ 09 03:15
_Hicham_what do u mean ?Sep 09 03:16
_Hicham_PackageKit isn't a package managerSep 09 03:16
_Hicham_it can be, but it is not its purposeSep 09 03:16
bruce89well, it seems hypocritical to have people saying "We need one distro", when Ubuntu won't accept PackageKitSep 09 03:16
WillI seem to remember seeing somewhere that PackageKit doesn't allow user interaction to make config choices at package install time, and the debian package system was designed to let users make config choices at install time.  Is this correct?Sep 09 03:16
_Hicham_did u see the url ?Sep 09 03:17
_Hicham_Will : exactlySep 09 03:17
bruce89anyway, I can see I'm not going to get anywhere hereSep 09 03:17
_Hicham_that is one big issueSep 09 03:17
_Hicham_bruce89 : because u lack the basicsSep 09 03:17
bruce89that's a new oneSep 09 03:17
_Hicham_yesSep 09 03:17
_Hicham_u came over to trollSep 09 03:18
_Hicham_but there is no place here for trollsSep 09 03:18
bruce89sebsebseb: you see, thanks for thisSep 09 03:18
sebsebseb_Hicham_: no he didn't actsaulleySep 09 03:18
sebsebseb_Hicham_: he came over, because of me, but not to trollSep 09 03:18
bruce89I don't see how explaining my side of the story can be considered trollingSep 09 03:18
bruce89but if that's your definition, good luck to youSep 09 03:18
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Willdoesn't Kubuntu use KPackageKit?Sep 09 03:22
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bruce89I'd like to apologise for the fuss, and indeed I haven't kept up with Ubuntu's changesSep 09 03:30
sebsebseb_Hicham_: ^Sep 09 03:31
sebsebsebaboveSep 09 03:31
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DaemonFCEmpathy is now crashing whenever I try to start itSep 09 03:56
DaemonFCand not triggering ApportSep 09 03:56
DaemonFCniceSep 09 03:56
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_Hicham_nice DaemonFCSep 09 04:09
_Hicham_nice nightly testerSep 09 04:09
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DaemonFChmmm, Empathy doesn't show who has ops?Sep 09 04:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Just watched Chad Wollenburg's SELF talk, well done Chad, good stuff. 09 04:33
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_Hicham_DaemonFC : are u becoming nuts?Sep 09 04:34
DaemonFCmeh, just trying Empathy againSep 09 04:34
DaemonFCthey probably figured it would be simpler not to have it tell you what the hell is going on in an IRC roomSep 09 04:35
DaemonFCand not let you change your MSN nameSep 09 04:35
DaemonFCthose are features and preferences after all :)Sep 09 04:35
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_Hicham_it is a young projectSep 09 04:37
_Hicham_when did it appear?Sep 09 04:37
_Hicham_in gnome-2.24Sep 09 04:37
_Hicham_so it is just its seconf releaseSep 09 04:37
DaemonFCyeah, they depend on 90% of Pidgin being installed anywaySep 09 04:38
DaemonFClibpurpleSep 09 04:38
DaemonFCor else it only understands a few simple things like JabberSep 09 04:39
DaemonFCI wonder why they're defaulting to it if it's nowhere close to readySep 09 04:39
DaemonFCthere's also no option to disable chat loggingSep 09 04:40
DaemonFCI'd call it one hell of a regression over PidginSep 09 04:41
DaemonFC"Let's make something that uses the same resources as Pidgin while taking all the user's freedom away"Sep 09 04:42
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DaemonFCmuch betterSep 09 04:44
DaemonFCwhy they think all their users are simplistic morons who are afraid of features is beyond meSep 09 04:44
DaemonFCUbuntu has traditionally skipped out on other GNOME apps due to this kind of crapSep 09 04:44
DaemonFCsomething tells me that most users would take one look at the official GNOME desktop and run screaming back to Windows XPSep 09 04:46
_Hicham_Empathy is still youngSep 09 04:46
_Hicham_and u don't have to use itSep 09 04:46
_Hicham_like most of default gnome appsSep 09 04:47
_Hicham_who runs totem ?Sep 09 04:47
_Hicham_who runs rhythmbox ?Sep 09 04:47
DaemonFCI use Totem, sometimesSep 09 04:47
_Hicham_who runs epiphany ?Sep 09 04:47
_Hicham_come onSep 09 04:47
DaemonFCI am right nowSep 09 04:47
DaemonFC:DSep 09 04:47
DaemonFCEpiphany-WebkitSep 09 04:47
DaemonFCI'm gonna run it through PeaceKeeperSep 09 04:47
_Hicham_Epiphany is terrible with certificatesSep 09 04:48
DaemonFCEpiphany Webkit is looking a hell of a lot better than the Gecko versionSep 09 04:48
_Hicham_the usable browser to date is firefoxSep 09 04:49
_Hicham_nobody can deny thatSep 09 04:49
DaemonFCI have version 2.27.92 out of their PPA along with the ExtensionsSep 09 04:49
DaemonFCthe ad blocker is working too :)Sep 09 04:49
_Hicham_I knowSep 09 04:49
_Hicham_but few extensionsSep 09 04:49
DaemonFCI don't use extensions muchSep 09 04:49
_Hicham_do u use certificates ?Sep 09 04:50
DaemonFCWhy they push basic functionality like middle click to scroll out to extensions is beyond me thoughSep 09 04:50
DaemonFCthat reeks of bad designSep 09 04:50
_Hicham_GNOME is moving towards WebkitSep 09 04:50
DaemonFCyeahSep 09 04:50
_Hicham_Evolution has an experimental Webkit backendSep 09 04:50
DaemonFCI've been waiting for them to for a long timeSep 09 04:50
DaemonFCI don't like Gecko or XulrunnerSep 09 04:51
_Hicham_why?Sep 09 04:51
DaemonFCthey don't fit in as system componentsSep 09 04:51
_Hicham_well, gnome is still using xulrunnerSep 09 04:51
DaemonFCthey're steered totally according to the needs of Mozilla productsSep 09 04:51
_Hicham_for the help systemSep 09 04:51
DaemonFCyeah, they're removing dependencies on legacy crap like Xulrunner left and rightSep 09 04:52
_Hicham_Mozilla is still improving the codeSep 09 04:52
_Hicham_it is getting faster and faster with every releaseSep 09 04:52
DaemonFCby the next GNOME release, all this deprecated crap should be goneSep 09 04:52
_Hicham_yes, yelp will be based on webkitSep 09 04:52
DaemonFCEpiphany Webkit is 3 times faster than Firefox 3.5Sep 09 04:52
_Hicham_did u do a test ?Sep 09 04:52
DaemonFCaccording to PeacekeeperSep 09 04:53
DaemonFCyesSep 09 04:53
DaemonFCEpiphany Webkit is over 3 times faster than FF 3.5Sep 09 04:53
_Hicham_is this a javascript test ?Sep 09 04:53
DaemonFCI lost my last Firefox benchmark though so I'm running it againSep 09 04:53
DaemonFCit was like 1108Sep 09 04:54
DaemonFCEpiphany Webkit got 3087Sep 09 04:54
_Hicham_did u enable tracemonkey ?Sep 09 04:54
DaemonFCit's a combined average thoughSep 09 04:54
DaemonFCJavascript blows Gecko awaySep 09 04:54
_Hicham_stubborn headSep 09 04:54
_Hicham_u just want to say what u likeSep 09 04:55
DaemonFCI'll post it when Firefox crawls to the finish line in about 10 minutesSep 09 04:55
DaemonFCcrawls is really too kindSep 09 04:55
DaemonFCmore like limpsSep 09 04:55
_Hicham_crazy DaemonFCSep 09 04:56
DaemonFC_Hicham_, 09 05:01
DaemonFCFirefox did a little better on this runSep 09 05:01
DaemonFC:DSep 09 05:02
_Hicham_those are google testSep 09 05:03
_Hicham_u can't trust themSep 09 05:03
DaemonFCyeah, blame the benchmarks for Firefox dragging assSep 09 05:04
DaemonFCand Futuremark, not GoogleSep 09 05:04
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 05:04
_Hicham_speed is not everythingSep 09 05:04
_Hicham_how do u see Chromium vs Epiphany webkit ?Sep 09 05:05
DaemonFCwhen Epiphany Webkit is officially released?Sep 09 05:05
DaemonFCI still see it as having the advantageSep 09 05:05
DaemonFCofficial adblocking, not a port of a shitty Windows programSep 09 05:05
DaemonFCother reasonsSep 09 05:06
_Hicham_Chromium is fasterSep 09 05:06
DaemonFCit's obvious Google doesn't know how to port applicationsSep 09 05:06
DaemonFCthey got a team of Windows programmers to make a very Windows-centric applicationSep 09 05:06
_Hicham_of courseSep 09 05:06
DaemonFCthen spread FUD about Linux and GTK+ being hard to develop forSep 09 05:06
_Hicham_they didn't do thatSep 09 05:06
DaemonFCyeah they didSep 09 05:07
_Hicham_no, just the technology differsSep 09 05:07
_Hicham_WTL is very differentSep 09 05:07
DaemonFC 09 05:07
_Hicham_if u have ever worked in WTL u would knowSep 09 05:07
DaemonFC"Linux is a server OS, only used on the desktop by enthusiasts," bonch added. "Accept it, because the kind of standardized APIs that are needed are not going to happen with the attitudes that this community has."Sep 09 05:07
_Hicham_from WTL there is a long roadSep 09 05:08
DaemonFCthat's straight from the Chrome development teamSep 09 05:08
_Hicham_APIs are standardizedSep 09 05:08
DaemonFCChrome is bullshitSep 09 05:08
_Hicham_high level APIsSep 09 05:08
DaemonFCit's also spywareSep 09 05:08
_Hicham_it is notSep 09 05:08
_Hicham_Chromium is Open SourceSep 09 05:08
DaemonFCSrware Iron disables the spyware in ChromeSep 09 05:08
_Hicham_I don't use ChromeSep 09 05:09
_Hicham_I use ChromiumSep 09 05:09
_Hicham_even when I was on WindowsSep 09 05:09
DaemonFC 09 05:09
DaemonFC 09 05:09
DaemonFCChrome has no built in ad blocking, no privacy controls for cookies, and spies on the user on behalf of GoogleSep 09 05:10
DaemonFCsending back personally identifiable informationSep 09 05:10
DaemonFCGoogle Chrome is really the same thing as Microsoft Internet ExplorerSep 09 05:11
DaemonFCpossibly worseSep 09 05:11
_Hicham_because it is not Open SourceSep 09 05:11
DaemonFCI was psyched about it too til I read what kind of privady invading shit it doesSep 09 05:11
DaemonFCand realized there's just no good way to block ads and web parasitesSep 09 05:11
_Hicham_use Open Source versionSep 09 05:11
DaemonFCcause Google would lose 5 centsSep 09 05:11
DaemonFC*privacySep 09 05:11
_Hicham_u r always stubbornSep 09 05:12
_Hicham_what do u expect from a closed source app ?Sep 09 05:12
DaemonFCPerhaps more to the point, "instead of accepting responsibility for their choice -- every choice comes with an opportunity cost -- they instead divert blame to the Linux platform, citing irrelevant points," Enderandrew explained.Sep 09 05:12
DaemonFCGoogle is promoting WindowsSep 09 05:12
DaemonFCand spreading anti-Linux FUDSep 09 05:12
_Hicham_of course they areSep 09 05:13
DaemonFCin a lot of ways, Google is a very Windows centric companySep 09 05:13
_Hicham_because it is hard to distribute linux programsSep 09 05:13
DaemonFCthey have more in common with Microsoft than they competeSep 09 05:13
_Hicham_that is the way to make moneySep 09 05:13
_Hicham_they can't concentrate on LinuxSep 09 05:14
_Hicham_because there is no money for them on LinuxSep 09 05:14
DaemonFCin the past, they've ported applications to Linux by encapsulating the Windows version in an included copy of WineSep 09 05:14
_Hicham_Linux is on the serverSep 09 05:14
_Hicham_possibleSep 09 05:14
_Hicham_it is hard to make cross-platform optimized appsSep 09 05:14
DaemonFCyou don't start by writing a program that uses every piece of Win32Sep 09 05:16
DaemonFCand then bitch about LinuxSep 09 05:16
_Hicham_if u want optimized programs for Windows, there is not a lot of alternativesSep 09 05:16
_Hicham_and the choice they made is the best on WindowsSep 09 05:16
_Hicham_even though undocumentedSep 09 05:16
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twitter1me hardies!Sep 09 05:18
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving")Sep 09 05:19
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DaemonFC_Hicham_, Chrome is really an attempt to harm LinuxSep 09 05:20
_Hicham_just compiled firefox-3.7a1preSep 09 05:20
_Hicham_it seems fasterSep 09 05:20
DaemonFCLinux has plenty of web browsers, what it could do without is a company deliberately dragging out their port and cursing at Linux because of their own incompetence every step along the waySep 09 05:20
_Hicham_it is not them being incompeteSep 09 05:22
_Hicham_there are prioritiesSep 09 05:22
DaemonFCFirefox has been demoted from my Favorites list :)Sep 09 05:23
DaemonFCin favor of EpiphanySep 09 05:23
twitter1chrome can no more kill gnu/linux than dillo can.Sep 09 05:24
_Hicham_hi twitter1 my friendSep 09 05:25
twitter1:-*Sep 09 05:25
twitter1hold that thought _Hicham_Sep 09 05:26
*twitter1 has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 09 05:26
_Hicham_Wow, Firefox-3.7 is linked with libnotifySep 09 05:29
_Hicham_greatSep 09 05:29
*twitter1 (n=willhill@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 05:30
_Hicham_wb twitter1Sep 09 05:32
twitter1what does "wb" mean?Sep 09 05:34
twitter1"Welcome Back"Sep 09 05:34
twitter1"Wild Beer"?Sep 09 05:34
twitter1"Wilder Beast" as in, she moaned like a wb?Sep 09 05:35
_Hicham_I gotta go eat sthg, I got a long fasting day in front of meSep 09 05:40
_Hicham_DaemonFC : still doing tests ?Sep 09 06:05
_Hicham_on the peacekeeper front-page, Firefox is the fastestSep 09 06:07
DaemonFCyeah, playing with GalaxiumSep 09 06:07
DaemonFC:PSep 09 06:07
_Hicham_mono apps again ?Sep 09 06:09
_Hicham_does it have webcam support ?Sep 09 06:09
DaemonFCnot yetSep 09 06:10
DaemonFCit's plannedSep 09 06:10
DaemonFCthe only thing supporting in the released version is MSN MessengerSep 09 06:11
DaemonFCthe SVN version adds Jabber and IRCSep 09 06:12
_Hicham_so there is mono in mint also ?Sep 09 06:17
_Hicham_this is ridiculousSep 09 06:17
_Hicham_we have dozens of IM, no one is fully supporting audio and videoSep 09 06:18
_Hicham_there is experimental webcam support in aMSN thoughSep 09 06:18
DaemonFCmy thoughts exactlySep 09 06:18
DaemonFCeveryone is just reinventing the work already doneSep 09 06:18
_Hicham_instead of focusing on usability, they do diversitySep 09 06:19
_Hicham_why offer diversity if nothing is satisfyingSep 09 06:20
DaemonFCGalaxium is proceeding slowly because they're trying to do proper supports of all features in every networkSep 09 06:20
DaemonFCI'd rather have proper support for one network at a time than something that just kind of halfasses its way through everythingSep 09 06:21
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 06:21
_Hicham_it is mono based, which means a memory hogSep 09 06:21
_Hicham_and lots of bugsSep 09 06:21
_Hicham_did u test seamonkey 2.0 beta by the way ?Sep 09 06:22
DaemonFCactually, it's quite responsiveSep 09 06:22
_Hicham_what is that? galaxium ?Sep 09 06:23
DaemonFCwho cares if Empathy uses 10 megs less RAM if it guts the program of all the features you use?Sep 09 06:23
DaemonFCyeahSep 09 06:23
_Hicham_Empathy is promoting telepathy frameworkSep 09 06:25
DaemonFChell with itSep 09 06:25
DaemonFCif it doesn't work, I don't care if it doesn't use any RAMSep 09 06:25
_Hicham_this means better desktop integrationSep 09 06:25
_Hicham_telepathy is a frameworkSep 09 06:25
DaemonFCI knowSep 09 06:29
DaemonFCEmpathy isn't very impressiveSep 09 06:29
DaemonFCit's actually pissing me off worse than Pidgin, which is an accomplishmentSep 09 06:29
_Hicham_Empathy is just a clientSep 09 06:29
_Hicham_it lacks features in the UISep 09 06:30
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_Hicham_DaemonFC : Most websites support FirefoxSep 09 06:33
_Hicham_some websites even recommend Firefox over IESep 09 06:33
twitter1Pidgin does MSN, Skype does it's own thing and Ekiga is a free software video phone. -> _Hicham_: we have dozens of IM, no one is fully supporting audio and videoSep 09 06:35
_Hicham_twitter1 : things were changing recentlySep 09 06:36
_Hicham_Empathy and Pidgin support Audio/Video on JabberSep 09 06:36
twitter1very cool, it's about time.Sep 09 06:36
_Hicham_aMSN have experimental Audio/Video chat for MSNSep 09 06:37
twitter1Anything that works with M$ is doomed to pain and failure.  My bets are on jabber.Sep 09 06:37
_Hicham_and twitter1 is here with usSep 09 06:37
_Hicham_do u have a jabber account?Sep 09 06:37
_Hicham_we should have a room on Jabber tooSep 09 06:37
twitter1but anyone can go out and buy a $140 netbook that does skype video out of the boxSep 09 06:38
twitter1yes, I have jabber accounts.Sep 09 06:38
_Hicham_did u test Audio/Video ?Sep 09 06:38
twitter1not yetSep 09 06:38
twitter1what version of pidgin does video?Sep 09 06:38
_Hicham_2.6.2Sep 09 06:39
_Hicham_what version do u have ?Sep 09 06:39
twitter1whatever is in Debian testing.Sep 09 06:41
twitter1 09 06:42
DaemonFCPidgin doesn't do videoSep 09 06:43
DaemonFCI think they said something about video for Jabber or somethingSep 09 06:44
DaemonFCI don't use Jabber, I never haveSep 09 06:44
twitter12.6.1 from what I've read, Google's video support is Winblows only right now.Sep 09 06:45
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u need an updateSep 09 06:45
twitter1Google really needs to get a gnu/linux clue.Sep 09 06:45
DaemonFCtwitter1, it wouldn't be profitableSep 09 06:45
twitter1Android not profitable.....Sep 09 06:46
DaemonFCI'll bet you $50 that there's no official video chat support from Google for LinuxSep 09 06:46
DaemonFCeverSep 09 06:46
_Hicham_twitter1 : go to about dialog, it should have sthg like enable-audio-videoSep 09 06:46
twitter1Keep your money DaemonFC.Sep 09 06:46
DaemonFCwell, there has to be a deadline for a betSep 09 06:46
DaemonFCso 5 yearsSep 09 06:46
DaemonFCguarantee you they won't have it in the next 5 yearsSep 09 06:46
twitter1Android will be doing video chat sooner than that.Sep 09 06:47
twitter1and android is gnu/linuxSep 09 06:47
DaemonFCtwitter1, They're using Linux in their productsSep 09 06:47
DaemonFCdoesn't mean they support LinuxSep 09 06:47
twitter1I suppose Winblows video chat is a form of advertising.Sep 09 06:47
DaemonFCjust means it's a glob of code they can commandeer for their productSep 09 06:47
twitter1The sooner they get people off Winblows, the better off they will be.Sep 09 06:47
twitter1Writing things for Winblows is a dead end for Google.Sep 09 06:48
DaemonFC"Android uses Linux as its kernel,[90] but according to Google, it is not a conventional Linux distribution. It does not have a native X Window System, nor does it support the full set of standard GNU libraries like its system libraries (GNU C Library). This specific modification makes it difficult to reuse existing Linux applications or libraries on Android.[91]"Sep 09 06:48
DaemonFCso the GNU/Linux spam really doesn't apply to AndroidSep 09 06:48
DaemonFCanyway, I've never been big on the GNU/Linux spamSep 09 06:49
_Hicham_ 09 06:49
twitter1The checkmate for M$ and traditional telco is Open Spectrum.  Google and M$ are hot on the trail of TV white spaces, but M$ will regret it.Sep 09 06:49
DaemonFCif you want to spam for every project that's had a hand in a Linux distribution, you're gonna have a god awfully long nameSep 09 06:49
DaemonFCcause GNU didn't even write more than 1/5th of the code in a typical Linux distroSep 09 06:49
DaemonFCthey just want to tack onto the Linux bandwagon by pretending they can take credit for X, KDE, and everything else tooSep 09 06:50
_Hicham_DaemonFC : go take ur pillSep 09 06:50
_Hicham_it is time for itSep 09 06:50
twitter1no, just the compiler and other indispensable infrastructure.  No one needs GNU.Sep 09 06:50
DaemonFC_Hicham_, There's no such thing as a GNU operating systemSep 09 06:50
twitter1just people who want working computers.Sep 09 06:51
_Hicham_GNU was the sparkleSep 09 06:51
twitter1Hurd is one.Sep 09 06:51
DaemonFCeven if they ever did finish HURD, they'd still rely on tons of third party code like X and a desktop environmentSep 09 06:51
_Hicham_they don't need to do anythingSep 09 06:51
DaemonFCsound systemsSep 09 06:51
DaemonFCetcSep 09 06:51
twitter1X is not part of an OS.  M$ has confused you.Sep 09 06:51
DaemonFCeven if GNU finished HURD and shipped a system that worked, they still wouldn't have written more than 25% of the systemSep 09 06:51
_Hicham_nobody is talking about a GNU OSSep 09 06:51
DaemonFCso there is no GNU OSSep 09 06:52
_Hicham_where did u read that ?Sep 09 06:52
_Hicham_GNU never said that they have an OSSep 09 06:52
DaemonFCby GNU's own fudged figuresSep 09 06:52
DaemonFCthey wrote about 20% of the code in a Linux distoSep 09 06:52
DaemonFCand Linux is about 1.5%Sep 09 06:52
_Hicham_nobody said thatSep 09 06:52
DaemonFCso even if they did make a GNU OS, only about 21.5% or so would actually be GNUSep 09 06:53
_Hicham_u r totally crazySep 09 06:53
_Hicham_who cares if it GNU or not ?Sep 09 06:53
twitter1I'm sure RMS would agree with Daemon and I'm equally sure his system is almost 100% GNU.Sep 09 06:53
_Hicham_as long as it is free ?Sep 09 06:53
DaemonFCbeing exceedingly generous, they have only had a direct hand in about 1 in 5 lines of code in a Linux system,Sep 09 06:53
twitter1Freedom is the important bit.Sep 09 06:53
twitter1But it's all interdependent.Sep 09 06:53
DaemonFCthey want 50% of the credit for writing 20% of a working OSSep 09 06:54
_Hicham_GNU or not is not importantSep 09 06:54
twitter1Show me a BSD that does not use GCC, for example.Sep 09 06:54
twitter1Even Sun uses GCC these days.Sep 09 06:54
_Hicham_Linus doesn't care about such thingsSep 09 06:54
_Hicham_what matters is freedomSep 09 06:54
DaemonFCyou don't need GCC to compile a Linux distributionSep 09 06:54
DaemonFCICC can do it tooSep 09 06:54
twitter1lolSep 09 06:54
_Hicham_have u tried ?Sep 09 06:54
DaemonFCthey want to act like they wrote the whole system even though you don't need any of their code to make an OS using LinuxSep 09 06:55
DaemonFCLinux is the only defining point of a Linux systemSep 09 06:56
twitter1Anyway.  Google's strategy with Android is to provide free, ubiquitous networking.Sep 09 06:56
DaemonFCthe rest of it either compiles and ships with every other POSIX systemSep 09 06:56
DaemonFCor has alternativesSep 09 06:56
twitter1They will have video phones and they will rout around damaged telco bandwith.Sep 09 06:56
twitter1They think they can earn billions in extra advertising revenue this way.Sep 09 06:56
twitter1and those billions will build a lot of towers.Sep 09 06:57
DaemonFCthey don't say whether they include GNOME in their figure anywaySep 09 06:57
DaemonFCif they did and you use KDE instead, who knows how much of the system they wrote?Sep 09 06:57
DaemonFC10% maybe?Sep 09 06:57
_Hicham_GNOME is GNUSep 09 06:57
DaemonFCKDE isn'tSep 09 06:58
_Hicham_Gnu Network Object Model EnvironmentSep 09 06:58
DaemonFCso I don't think they can just throw GNOME into their figureSep 09 06:58
_Hicham_KDE is separateSep 09 06:58
DaemonFCbecause it's not guaranteed to be part of the installed systemSep 09 06:58
_Hicham_what if Hurd is complete ?Sep 09 06:58
twitter1hurd is working.Sep 09 06:58
_Hicham_wouldn't it be a GNU OS ?Sep 09 06:58
DaemonFCif HURD is complete and they make a GNU/HURD OS with no X Server or desktop environmentSep 09 06:59
twitter1You can get gnu/hurd from debian now.Sep 09 06:59
_Hicham_he seems to ignore thatSep 09 06:59
DaemonFCthen it is a GNU OSSep 09 06:59
DaemonFCas long as it is either overwhelmingly their code, or 100% their code, it can be called GNU OSSep 09 06:59
_Hicham_so the missing bit is X ?Sep 09 06:59
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 09 06:59
_Hicham_u r completely insaneSep 09 06:59
DaemonFC_Hicham_, Taking 50% credit for writing 10-20% of the system is bullshitSep 09 07:00
DaemonFCit really isSep 09 07:00
twitter1I think you have made your point by now, FC.Sep 09 07:00
DaemonFCthey want to belittle the various people that wrote the other 80-90% of the systemSep 09 07:00
DaemonFCand make theirs look like it's more importantSep 09 07:00
twitter1No one believes it and repeating it is not helping.Sep 09 07:00
_Hicham_as I told u, u need ur pillSep 09 07:01
_Hicham_otherwise u will start kicking urselfSep 09 07:01
DaemonFCthe only way GNU/Linux exists is as part of a spam campaignSep 09 07:01
_Hicham_go take ur pillSep 09 07:01
twitter1spam?Sep 09 07:01
_Hicham_come on, don't waste timeSep 09 07:01
twitter1the FSF is a spammer?Sep 09 07:01
_Hicham_go go goSep 09 07:01
DaemonFCor as GNU/ perhapsSep 09 07:01
DaemonFCmaybe we should call it Mandriva GNU/ 09 07:01
twitter1gnu/DaemonFCSep 09 07:02
DaemonFCor maybe we should just peg everyone into the name that wrote part of the code that's in the systemSep 09 07:02
twitter1an GNU Daemon would be nice.  The old one is repetitive.Sep 09 07:02
DaemonFCdon't stop til they have to cover the front, back, and both sides of the box with who wrote the OSSep 09 07:02
DaemonFC:DSep 09 07:02
_Hicham_DaemonGNUSep 09 07:03
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_Hicham_remove all the binutils if u don't like GNUSep 09 07:04
_Hicham_recompile the kernel without gccSep 09 07:04
_Hicham_and do not use GTK appsSep 09 07:04
DaemonFC"Some people object that the name "Linux" should be used to refer only to the kernel, not the entire operating system. This claim is a proxy for an underlying territorial dispute; people who insist on the term GNU/Linux want the FSF to get most of the credit for Linux because [Stallman] and friends wrote many of its user-level tools. Neither this theory nor the term GNU/Linux has gained more than minority acceptance."Sep 09 07:05
DaemonFC 09 07:05
DaemonFC"Well, I think it's justified, but it's justified if you actually make a GNU distribution of Linux ... " - Linus TorvaldsSep 09 07:05
twitter1Don't be dissing minorities, Daemon.Sep 09 07:06
DaemonFCnow that's a good oneSep 09 07:06
twitter1there is GNUSenseSep 09 07:06
DaemonFC"because if you actually make your own distribution of Linux, you get to name the thing, but calling Linux in general "GNU Linux" I think is just ridiculous."Sep 09 07:06
_Hicham_twitter1 : forgive him the poor, he doesn't have money for the pillSep 09 07:07
twitter1Debian calls itself GNU/Linux when it's not using hurd, bsd or solaris.Sep 09 07:07
twitter1What do Fedora and Red Hat call themselves?Sep 09 07:07
_Hicham_twitter1 : here is a new one : DaemonFC you shill, go take ur pillSep 09 07:07
DaemonFCDebian named their Linux distributionSep 09 07:08
DaemonFCthey have the rightSep 09 07:08
twitter1Debian and derivatives make up more than half of the "Linux" world.Sep 09 07:08
DaemonFCif I want to make a Linux distribution and pander to the marketing spam, that's my rightSep 09 07:08
_Hicham_I make up the other halfSep 09 07:08
twitter1So, that's clearly more than a "minority" opinion of the participants.Sep 09 07:08
DaemonFCtwitter1, NawSep 09 07:08
_Hicham_u can't even do ur homeworkSep 09 07:08
DaemonFCDebian's opinionSep 09 07:08
DaemonFCand their opinion does not necessarily represent their own usersSep 09 07:09
twitter1I'm not sure about your "right" to rename Linux.  Linus has a trademark.Sep 09 07:09
DaemonFCmuch less users of Debian forksSep 09 07:09
DaemonFCUbuntu's name does not include the GNU/Linux spamSep 09 07:09
DaemonFCthey are Ubuntu LinuxSep 09 07:09
twitter1DeamonFC's opinion is pretty much DeamonFC's opinion.Sep 09 07:09
DaemonFCLinux Mint is not GNU/Linux MintSep 09 07:10
DaemonFCpersonally I doubt they even want to lend credence to the silly ideas of a fewSep 09 07:10
DaemonFCin fact, I don't even think Ubuntu has Linux in it's official name, I think the entire OS is just names UbuntuSep 09 07:12
DaemonFCand it's taken for granted that Linux is a part of UbuntuSep 09 07:12
DaemonFC*namedSep 09 07:12
*RZC ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 07:13
DaemonFCso, in desperation, GNU rigged their uname utility to report GNU/Linux, whateverSep 09 07:13
DaemonFCI still think it's petty and retardedSep 09 07:13
RZCHi all.Sep 09 07:13
RZCRoy, are you awake?Sep 09 07:14
*DaemonFC renames twitter1 to everyone who has every contributed to his DNA in all of history separated with a backslash each timeSep 09 07:15
DaemonFCit'll be interesting when he goes to sign something, but it's the only proper waySep 09 07:15
DaemonFC*everSep 09 07:15
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFC DaemonFCSep 09 07:17
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:18
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:18
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:18
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:19
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:19
*DaemonFC thinks that _Hicham_ is Tom Cruise Crazy'Sep 09 07:19
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:19
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:19
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:19
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:19
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:20
DaemonFC_Hicham_, 09 07:21
DaemonFCnyaaahSep 09 07:21
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:21
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:21
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:21
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:21
_Hicham_Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your Pill         Go Take Your PillSep 09 07:21
twitter1stopSep 09 07:22
_Hicham_this is better than what he was writingSep 09 07:22
_Hicham_he was repeating the same old stuff when he enters in crisisSep 09 07:23
twitter1He mentioned Ubuntu, a commercial distribution that reflects the feelings of it's users even less than Debain does.  In fact, it's hard to think of a software distribution that more clearly reflects the will of users than Debian.Sep 09 07:27
twitter1Ubuntu mostly reflects the will of Mark Shuttleworth, who calls it "Linux" 09 07:27
RZChey all again... anyone have familiarity with VirtualBox?Sep 09 07:28
twitter1not much.Sep 09 07:29
twitter1I made it run a liveCD once.Sep 09 07:29
_Hicham_RZC : what is up ?Sep 09 07:29
twitter1it's funny, when you search Shuttleworth's blog, everyone but him uses the term "gnu/linux" .  People in the comments and people interviewing him all say this but Shuttleworth stubbornly calls the whole OS it's kernel.Sep 09 07:30
RZCI'm trying to figure out whether I can copy my guest OS XP.vmdk over to its own partition and boot it up from there. I'm taking an exam with my laptop and it needs XP software on it... Running linux with VirtualBox will freak out the test takers.Sep 09 07:30
twitter1the same thing seems to be true of Fedora, 09 07:31
_Hicham_RZC : copy the files to a shared folder, copy the contents to the first primary partition, recreate the mbr, and ur doneSep 09 07:32
RZCI don't need to use a Vboxmgr clone command?Sep 09 07:33
_Hicham_u want to run XP natively if i did understand ?Sep 09 07:34
RZCyep, but XP is already set up in a .vmdk VirtualBox file.Sep 09 07:34
RZCYes, I want to dual-boot directly into the XP partition that I'd be setting up.Sep 09 07:35
_Hicham_there is no other way, u have to extract the files off the vmdkSep 09 07:37
_Hicham_that wouldn't take more than half an hourSep 09 07:38
RZCwill it boot?Sep 09 07:39
_Hicham_RZC : u will have to use WinXP CDSep 09 07:40
RZC(the vmdk XP guest OS was installed and configured in Virtualbox).Sep 09 07:40
RZCwhat would I need the CD for?Sep 09 07:40
RZCthe mbr?Sep 09 07:40
_Hicham_and u should copy the contents to the first primary partitionSep 09 07:40
_Hicham_yes, the mbrSep 09 07:40
_Hicham_*the first primary partition*Sep 09 07:41
RZCUbuntu is on the first primary partition.  This would be on the third.Sep 09 07:41
RZCI suppose I can move the partitions around with gparted.  It's really that important?Sep 09 07:41
RZC...that XP be on the first partition?Sep 09 07:41
_Hicham_RZC : the first primary partition should have a Windows compatible filesystemSep 09 07:43
_Hicham_why not run XP virtualized ?Sep 09 07:43
_Hicham_is it that important to have it in native ?Sep 09 07:43
twitter1ha ha, CNet picked up the M$ training for Best Buy employees, " Microsoft mis-educates Best Buy on Linux" 09 07:44
twitter1not very well informed author, " Netbooks and laptops, a space in which Linux has feature parity, if a lack of interest from consumers. "Sep 09 07:45
twitter1no one is interested in saving $50 on a $300 computer while getting better performance with gnu/linux?Sep 09 07:46
twitter1"feature parity" please!Sep 09 07:46
_Hicham_Ubuntu preloaded dell notebooks are more expensive than those with WindowsSep 09 07:46
RZCI'm taking a standardized exam using the laptop, and booting XP from Ubuntu will freak out the examiners.Sep 09 07:47
twitter1if you have to use XP, the exam is not very standardized.Sep 09 07:47
RZCI don't want to raise any suspicions of cheating, etc., so I'm just setting up a native Windows to run for the exam...Sep 09 07:47
twitter1I'm surprised they let you use your own laptop at all.Sep 09 07:47
RZChehe yeah, the exam is XP, and I'm paying an extra fee to use my own laptop.Sep 09 07:48
RZCanyway, I figured that Virtualbox is taking up the space anyway, so why not just move THAT .vmdk to its own partition to boot natively (unless you know of a way to boot directly into a .vmdk)...?Sep 09 07:49
_Hicham_twitter1 : good oneSep 09 07:49
twitter1Ina Fried shill does sad damage control for M$, basically claiming Windows 7 is secure because one or two bugs only BSoD all other versions of Windows.Sep 09 07:50
twitter1->  Microsoft issued a formal security advisory late Tuesday on a reported zero-day flaw in Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008. However, the software maker also said that the flaw does not affect the final version of Windows 7, contrary to earlier reports.Sep 09 07:50
_Hicham_the OS I am planning to release is more secureSep 09 07:50
*sebsebseb has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 07:51
twitter1but then, ->  Microsoft is already dealing with a separate, still unpatched flaw reported last week. Attacks have already been seen based on that vulnerability. Microsoft has taken issue with the fact that that flaw, like the latest one, was reported publiclySep 09 07:51
_Hicham_holy VistaSep 09 07:51
twitter1Windows 7 is holy VistaSep 09 07:52
_Hicham_why don't u like Windows ?Sep 09 07:52
_Hicham_it is helping usSep 09 07:52
MinceRwe need to be helped because of windows in the first placeSep 09 07:52
_Hicham_can u rob a bank if it is running a fortified Linux or BSD ?Sep 09 07:52
_Hicham_noSep 09 07:52
twitter1I hate Windows because I had to use it.Sep 09 07:52
twitter1and still have to use it.Sep 09 07:52
MinceRdo i rob banks?Sep 09 07:52
_Hicham_but if they are running Windows u couldSep 09 07:52
_Hicham_MinceR : u doSep 09 07:52
MinceRno, i don'tSep 09 07:53
twitter1please do not rob banksSep 09 07:53
RZCalright, gnightSep 09 07:53
twitter1there are enough people already doing thatSep 09 07:53
MinceRnot yet, anywaySep 09 07:53
_Hicham_twitter1 the bank robberSep 09 07:53
*RZC has quit ("Leaving")Sep 09 07:53
_Hicham_always looking at the browser throbberSep 09 07:53
_Hicham_never spend a night soberSep 09 07:53
_Hicham_twitter1 : big hug to u as alwaysSep 09 07:58
twitter1thanks _Hicham_, I needed thatSep 09 07:59
twitter1Vista 7 bugs reported in USA Today... 09 08:00
twitter1slap.Sep 09 08:00
_Hicham_Ok, I am gonna use Vista thenSep 09 08:02
_Hicham_since it is now secureSep 09 08:02
twitter1Everytime I see the Vista button scheme, I can't help but think how ugly it is.Sep 09 08:02
_Hicham_Vista stolen its UI from GNOMSep 09 08:02
_Hicham_*GNOMESep 09 08:03
twitter1Most GNU/Linux looks better by far than their stuff does.  Every piece of it.Sep 09 08:03
twitter1the fonts.Sep 09 08:03
twitter1the iconsSep 09 08:03
twitter1the borders and buttons.Sep 09 08:03
_Hicham_I have a cool font from openSUSESep 09 08:03
twitter1Vista is a mess.Sep 09 08:03
_Hicham_Fifth-Leg fontSep 09 08:03
twitter1here's an example 09 08:03
twitter1look how screwed up that dialog isSep 09 08:04
twitter1wtf are "libraries"?  It sounds like symlinks.Sep 09 08:05
twitter1"underhyped" lolSep 09 08:05
twitter1yes, they are talking about symlinks. 09 08:07
_Hicham_some system location to frustrate the users moreSep 09 08:07
*Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 08:07
_Hicham_Windows do not have symlinksSep 09 08:08
_Hicham_did u use Windows 7 ?Sep 09 08:08
twitter1I thought NTFS had them, my bad.Sep 09 08:08
twitter1No.  I do not use Windows, except at work where I'd never touch a thing.Sep 09 08:08
twitter1funny the lengths they have to go to just to share.Sep 09 08:09
twitter1Konq gives you three options when you drag files, "move, copy, link"Sep 09 08:10
twitter1chose "link" for /home/user/public_html   .... tada, I've created a "library"Sep 09 08:11
twitter1with grsync, I can sync my "library" wherever I decide to create it.Sep 09 08:11
twitter1Windows is simply hostile to sharing and user organizationSep 09 08:12
DaemonFCNTFS does have symlinksSep 09 08:12
twitter1They still depend on file extensions but hide them.... ugh.Sep 09 08:12
twitter1but Windows don't use them, right?Sep 09 08:12
twitter1ha ha.Sep 09 08:12
DaemonFC 09 08:12
DaemonFCthey were added to facilitate Services For UNIX ApplicationsSep 09 08:13
twitter1I hate how their file manager copies or moves things without asking you based on what kind of freaking device you drag to.Sep 09 08:13
twitter1->  I'm using Dropbox to sync my files across multiple computers—including a subset of my music collection. Rather than trying to use hacks to sync directories outside my DropBox folder or dropping to the command-line to create some symlinks, it was as simple as adding my Dropbox music collection folder to the Music library.Sep 09 08:14
twitter1"dropping to the command line" in Windows is quite a painful fall.Sep 09 08:14
DaemonFCthe NTFS symlinks don't work right on the Home editions of Windows but you can create themSep 09 08:14
_Hicham_twitter1 : can't u use KDE on Windows ?Sep 09 08:14
twitter1no, I don't own a copy of WindowsSep 09 08:15
DaemonFCyou can use some tools from Windows 2003 server to help with that thoughSep 09 08:15
DaemonFC_Hicham_, You can use KDE applications on WindowsSep 09 08:15
twitter1I don't expect KDE to work on Windows anyway.Sep 09 08:15
twitter1think it's a big waste of effortSep 09 08:15
DaemonFCnot KDE itself, directly anywaySep 09 08:15
DaemonFCyou can compile KDE through SUA or Cygwin and replace Explorer with itSep 09 08:15
twitter1M$ will screw it upSep 09 08:15
DaemonFCtwitter1: They never have beforeSep 09 08:16
twitter1Why would I go through all that trouble when I could just install a decent OS in 15 minutes.Sep 09 08:16
DaemonFCplenty of alternate shells have been made for or ported to WindowsSep 09 08:16
twitter1M$ is infamous for sabotaging "competition"Sep 09 08:16
twitter1It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how often and how badly.Sep 09 08:16
DaemonFCShow me where they have every stopped anyone from using their own shellSep 09 08:17
twitter1Just look at iTunes or Netscape.Sep 09 08:17
DaemonFC*everSep 09 08:17
DaemonFCiTunes sabotages Windows due to poor designSep 09 08:17
twitter1If Apple and Netscape can't escape their malice, no one can.Sep 09 08:17
DaemonFCthat's Apple's faultSep 09 08:17
twitter1yeah, right.Sep 09 08:17
twitter1Apple wants it's Windows users to have a bad time.  Ha.Sep 09 08:18
DaemonFCApple makes shitty blaoted software that fucks around with parts of the system it has no business interfering withSep 09 08:18
DaemonFCthey make inferior softwareSep 09 08:18
DaemonFCand when it breaks Windows, they blame WindowsSep 09 08:18
twitter1Apple so wants to sabotage M$ that Office on Mac must be a horror.Sep 09 08:18
twitter1The only thing all the broken Windows applications have in common is Windows.Sep 09 08:19
DaemonFCit's not Microsoft's fault that Apple can't do a proper portSep 09 08:19
DaemonFCApple insists on bringing in 20 layers of unrelated garbageSep 09 08:19
DaemonFCevery time you install something of theirsSep 09 08:19
DaemonFCit's ridiculous, it's not that they're making bad Windows software, it's that they're making bad ports of bad Mac OS X softwareSep 09 08:20
twitter1Every non free software writer has to treat non free OS like a weary stranger and bring in their own kit.Sep 09 08:20
DaemonFCnot trueSep 09 08:20
DaemonFCApple has the resources and the people to make a proper Windows programSep 09 08:20
twitter1Windows lacks decent time keeping, network stack, so many thingsSep 09 08:20
DaemonFCthey very much choose not toSep 09 08:20
DaemonFCApple is arrogantSep 09 08:20
twitter1every time you use something from Bill, you put yourself at his mercy.Sep 09 08:21
DaemonFCuse Apple programs on Windows, look at what they doSep 09 08:21
DaemonFCthey add system servicesSep 09 08:21
DaemonFCitnerfere with the system startup sequenceSep 09 08:22
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 08:22
twitter1these are non free software problems.Sep 09 08:22
DaemonFCand install 3 or 4 unrelated applications behind your back that you did not requestSep 09 08:22
twitter1Adobe has them tooSep 09 08:22
twitter1it's all a game of screwing the user to themSep 09 08:22
DaemonFCI've never had those kinds of problems with any software on Windows other than Apple'sSep 09 08:22
DaemonFCApple's software is more like something you'd get from a far east spyware vendorSep 09 08:23
twitter1WGASep 09 08:23
twitter1Windows UpdateSep 09 08:23
twitter1it's all shit.Sep 09 08:23
DaemonFCApple has very few software engineers that have any idea what they're doingSep 09 08:23
MinceRcrApple has engineers?Sep 09 08:23
MinceRwhat do they use them for? cleaning the toilets?Sep 09 08:24
DaemonFCWebkit is about the only project they haven't totally fucked up beyond recognitionSep 09 08:24
twitter1DaemonFC will teach Woz to build computers.Sep 09 08:24
twitter1"do it the M$ way, Woz"Sep 09 08:24
MinceRis Woz worthy of attention at all?Sep 09 08:24
twitter1no, he's busy cleaning toiletsSep 09 08:24
DaemonFCtwitter1, just because I don't subscribe to your spam and outright nonsensical hatred doesn't mean I like MicrosfotSep 09 08:25
DaemonFC*MicrosoftSep 09 08:25
MinceRthe m$ way of building computers is what led to xbox360 :>Sep 09 08:25
twitter1ZuneSep 09 08:25
twitter1Squirt, ewwww!Sep 09 08:25
MinceRdid zunes die, too?Sep 09 08:25
twitter1I don't know.  Have you seen one in person latley?Sep 09 08:25
DaemonFCMinceR, Zune isn't going anywhereSep 09 08:25
twitter1yeah, they sit in storesSep 09 08:26
DaemonFCit's one of those things that Microsoft has the cash to subsidize for years without turning profitsSep 09 08:26
MinceRi mean the hardware, like RROD in xbox360-sSep 09 08:26
twitter1they have done that already ...Sep 09 08:26
DaemonFCyou think they're in every Walmart because they're selling?Sep 09 08:26
DaemonFCMicrosoft COMPENSATES Walmart for the loss of sales in that shelf spaceSep 09 08:26
twitter1I don't think they are selling.Sep 09 08:26
DaemonFCjust to keep Zune on the shelfSep 09 08:26
twitter1lovely.Sep 09 08:26
twitter1looks so nice there burning M$ money.Sep 09 08:27
DaemonFCWalmart is making money on the Zune without selling enough of them to make money from selling themSep 09 08:27
DaemonFCit's actually pretty funnySep 09 08:27
twitter1it's called dumping and it's against the lawSep 09 08:27
DaemonFCtwitter1, No, it's not dumpingSep 09 08:27
DaemonFCdumping would be selling them impossibly cheapSep 09 08:27
DaemonFCtwitter1, If Microsoft was selling the Zune for $20 just so that nobody else could ever get any sales, that would be the definition of dumpingSep 09 08:28
twitter1yes, they use their profits from their OS monopoly to subsidize an attack on an unrelated market, that's the textbook definition of predatory pricing, aka "dumping"Sep 09 08:28
MinceRwell, one could argue that they're renting zunes out to wal-mart impossibly cheapSep 09 08:28
DaemonFCforeign manufacturers dump inferior products in the USA all the timeSep 09 08:28
MinceR:>Sep 09 08:28
DaemonFCwhere's the anti-dumping laws then?Sep 09 08:28
twitter1someone at the US DOJ put those laws under a rock.Sep 09 08:29
MinceRjust like antitrust lawsSep 09 08:29
MinceRand of course most of the constitution :>Sep 09 08:29
DaemonFCMinceR, twitter1, Zune is a payola schemeSep 09 08:29
DaemonFCnot a dumping operationSep 09 08:29
DaemonFCget your organized crime straight :)Sep 09 08:30
twitter1it is bothSep 09 08:30
twitter1and no one wants itSep 09 08:30
twitter1music rental programs, so sad.Sep 09 08:30
twitter1Zune is their poster child.Sep 09 08:31
DaemonFCit's not dumping because they're not setting the prices below cost just to run others out of the businessSep 09 08:31
DaemonFCit *is* payola because they're paying for shelf space to stifle competitionSep 09 08:31
DaemonFCbut retail payola isn't newSep 09 08:31
DaemonFCTide laundry detergent is also a payola systemSep 09 08:31
DaemonFCthey pay for shelf space and they make 20 varieties of TideSep 09 08:31
DaemonFCit's a kind of area denialSep 09 08:32
twitter1Even you, DaemonFC, say that M$ subsidizes Zune.  That's dumping.Sep 09 08:32
twitter1The price of Tide includes the shelf space fees.Sep 09 08:32
DaemonFCno, they subsidize through payola, not dumpingSep 09 08:32
twitter1Zune does not.Sep 09 08:32
DaemonFCdumping is price manipulations, payola is pay to playSep 09 08:32
twitter1they pay that from Winblows money.Sep 09 08:32
DaemonFCright, they're running the payola scheme with money from profitable divisionsSep 09 08:33
DaemonFCjust like the old RIAA payola system where they paid radio stations for airtimeSep 09 08:33
twitter1Except the business as a whole is no longer profitable.Sep 09 08:33
DaemonFCout of their record sales profitsSep 09 08:33
twitter1look at the $40 billion dollar cash pile they burn in less than five years.Sep 09 08:34
DaemonFCtwitter1, They've overextended themselvesSep 09 08:34
twitter1now they fire employees and go into debtSep 09 08:34
DaemonFCthey've eaten too much of a loss on Zune and XBOX and other minor unprofitable divisionsSep 09 08:34
DaemonFCmore than they figured onSep 09 08:34
twitter1yes, so they were not really able to subsidize Zune and Xbox after all, were they?Sep 09 08:34
DaemonFCtwitter1, It's like a momentumSep 09 08:34
twitter1and so Zune and Xbox will soon meet a long delayed death or the company as a whole will.Sep 09 08:35
DaemonFCthey're still trying to push Zune because they still hope that they can turn it around and they've already paid the expense of launching it and designing it and manufacturing itSep 09 08:35
twitter1there's no momentum behind Zune, Xbox or Windows.Sep 09 08:35
DaemonFCit's like passing a point of no returnSep 09 08:35
twitter1They are in free fall.Sep 09 08:35
twitter1"Death spiral" as they like to call it.Sep 09 08:36
DaemonFCdeath spiral? I doubt itSep 09 08:36
twitter1VistaSep 09 08:36
DaemonFCthey'll be much smaller before this is over thoughSep 09 08:36
twitter1they took six years to make VistaSep 09 08:36
DaemonFCthey need to jettison dead weight divisions and use the money they get in the fire sale for core business expensesSep 09 08:36
DaemonFCthat's what you see happening nowSep 09 08:37
twitter1it failed, so they have to fire people.  Do you think they can fix Vista in two years with fewer employees?Sep 09 08:37
twitter1the forces of their collapse are out of controlSep 09 08:37
DaemonFCtwitter1, They're shuttering and selling the "garrison" units they have out on the frontierSep 09 08:37
twitter1it is a death spiral.Sep 09 08:37
twitter1they lose employees and are unable to fix what ails them.Sep 09 08:37
DaemonFCit's like a point where an empire stops expanding and starts contracting, but it's still not too late to maybe fix itSep 09 08:38
DaemonFCdepends on how long they let themselves think that the Zune has a chanceSep 09 08:38
DaemonFCand how many more XBOX 360s break downSep 09 08:38
DaemonFCif I was them I'd go ahead and axe the Zune right nowSep 09 08:39
DaemonFCprobably not the XBOX 360 though, but reliability would need to be improvedSep 09 08:39
DaemonFCat least to last (on average) past the span of the warrantySep 09 08:40
DaemonFCthey currently have that set at three years I believeSep 09 08:40
DaemonFCthere's no reason why they couldn't commit to price reduction and reliability improvement at the same timeSep 09 08:40
DaemonFCBallmer is too much of a loose cannon, someone needs to 86 him before he does anymore damageSep 09 08:42
DaemonFCthe board should put it to a vote to fire and replace himSep 09 08:42
DaemonFCit would be better to just get that over with now rather than laterSep 09 08:42
DaemonFCif he does more damage, there will be a shareholder initiative that gets rid of him, and maybe even some of the boardSep 09 08:43
DaemonFCactually, the time to get rid of Ballmer was last year when he started talking about a Yahoo dealSep 09 08:44
DaemonFCBing is not catching on but it is racking up debt and giving them another failed unit to put down laterSep 09 08:46
twitter1Firing Ballmer won't fix M$.Sep 09 08:46
twitter1All of the problems will still be there.Sep 09 08:46
Diablo-D3ballmer actually did microsoft goodSep 09 08:46
DaemonFC 09 08:46
Diablo-D3he went to buy yahooSep 09 08:46
Diablo-D3he didntSep 09 08:46
Diablo-D3yahoo stock price dropped in halfSep 09 08:47
Diablo-D3then he bought yahooSep 09 08:47
DaemonFCWhen the Seattle PI starts attacking Bing, you know it's already a failureSep 09 08:47
twitter1it's hotmail all over again.Sep 09 08:47
DaemonFCit's not even winning over IE users and it's the default search engineSep 09 08:47
Diablo-D3I dont know why microsoft just doesn't partner with googleSep 09 08:47
twitter1it's easy to see why google won't partner with M$Sep 09 08:47
DaemonFCI don't think web applications are the futureSep 09 08:48
Diablo-D3twitter1: google never said noSep 09 08:48
Diablo-D3microsoft never asked.Sep 09 08:48
twitter1there's a long line of corpses that said yesSep 09 08:48
twitter1Google's smarter than thatSep 09 08:48
DaemonFCweb applications are something Microsoft and the FSF both have reasons to hateSep 09 08:48
Diablo-D3google is bigger than microsoftSep 09 08:48
Diablo-D3if anything, microsoft would be the corpseSep 09 08:48
twitter1M$ is going to be corpse anyway.Sep 09 08:49
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: web applications are not your enemySep 09 08:49
twitter1They way M$ did ASP, yes they were the enemy.Sep 09 08:49
DaemonFCbecause web apps don't just have the potential to make Windows irrelevant, but also, they're obfuscated and can reduce "GNU/Linux" to just a platform to boot the computer to run more nonfree softwareSep 09 08:49
*AlanBell (n=alan@ has left #boycottnovellSep 09 08:49
DaemonFCso they both have good reasons to be trying to kill web appsSep 09 08:49
Diablo-D3linux _is_ a platform to run softwareSep 09 08:49
Diablo-D3it always has beenSep 09 08:49
*amarsh04_ ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 08:49
DaemonFCright, but it's jsut such a slap in the face to "software freedom"Sep 09 08:50
Diablo-D3software freedom is also the freedom to not choose free softwareSep 09 08:50
DaemonFCit's like using the FSF's software as a platform to run exclusively nonfree softwareSep 09 08:50
DaemonFCit's an irony is what it will beSep 09 08:50
Diablo-D3RMS's fanaticism is a slippery slopeSep 09 08:50
Diablo-D3the user must be free to run whatever he wants, periodSep 09 08:51
DaemonFCthe FSF has, ironically, created the ideal platform to run nonfree softwareSep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3and noSep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3the FSF hasntSep 09 08:51
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")Sep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3linux is not the ideal OSSep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3linux isnt even theirs to begin withSep 09 08:51
twitter1What Bing shows is that given a choice, M$ loses.Sep 09 08:51
DaemonFCbecause all of a sudden, the CEO of BIG EVIL Co. can take their software, not pay anything to use it, and tie it into his nonfree web appsSep 09 08:51
MinceR"slippery slope" is a logical fallacySep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3twitter1: well, if bing actually provided useful results, even I'd use itSep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3MinceR: it leads to locking out closed source softwareSep 09 08:51
twitter1It won't.Sep 09 08:51
Diablo-D3which is also badSep 09 08:51
DaemonFCBing is jsut as bad as Live SearchSep 09 08:51
DaemonFCin some cases, worseSep 09 08:52
MinceRand a non-free OS doesn't guarantee the user to be free to run whatever he wantsSep 09 08:52
Diablo-D3bing _is_ live searchSep 09 08:52
Diablo-D3its the same productSep 09 08:52
MinceRbingo is just m$n search/live search rebranded for the second timeSep 09 08:52
twitter1oh wellSep 09 08:52
MinceR(or more?)Sep 09 08:52
twitter1bong.Sep 09 08:52
Diablo-D3MinceR: I think thirdSep 09 08:52
Diablo-D3it was something else before msn/live searchSep 09 08:52
twitter1the vista bong 7Sep 09 08:52
Diablo-D3hahSep 09 08:52
twitter17ista BongSep 09 08:52
Diablo-D3I'd buy thatSep 09 08:52
MinceRDiablo-D3: i don't remember RMS wanting to lock out nonfree softwareSep 09 08:53
Diablo-D3MinceR: he basically doesSep 09 08:53
MinceRjust wanting to make sure that you can do everything you want without itSep 09 08:53
Diablo-D3but cant figure out a way to do it without pissing off the largest FSF donatorsSep 09 08:53
twitter1RMS wants people to have freedomSep 09 08:53
Diablo-D3freedom also includes the right to use closed source softwareSep 09 08:53
Diablo-D3RMS and his ilk sometimes forget thisSep 09 08:53
twitter1does freedom include the right to buy slaves?Sep 09 08:53
*proteus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 08:54
twitter1or sell yourself into bondage?Sep 09 08:54
twitter1to rob, rape and pillage?Sep 09 08:54
twitter1no, there are limits to freedom.Sep 09 08:54
Diablo-D3but twitter, I _can_ buy slavesSep 09 08:54
twitter1where your actions harm others, society protects itselfSep 09 08:54
Diablo-D3if I had a basement, I would surely have a hot asian locked up in itSep 09 08:55
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))Sep 09 08:55
twitter1no one is safe in a society that allows it's members to be mistreatedSep 09 08:55
twitter1non free software is wrong in many waysSep 09 08:55
DaemonFCtwitter1, It's funny you should say thatSep 09 08:55
twitter1you are easily amused, I like thatSep 09 08:56
DaemonFCpeople are not predisposed to doing the right thing without tangible benefits for themselvesSep 09 08:56
DaemonFCsometimes an ego boost is enoughSep 09 08:56
DaemonFCusually it manifests itself in sex or moneySep 09 08:56
twitter1where free market forces fail to protect the public interest, a reasonable public makes laws to protect itself.Sep 09 08:57
twitter1there are minimum wagesSep 09 08:57
DaemonFCtwitter1, So you prefer forcing people to use Linux and free software, even if they don't want it, by edict?Sep 09 08:57
twitter1I'd rather start by eliminating government protection of non free software.Sep 09 08:58
twitter1It is easier to eliminate it that way.Sep 09 08:58
twitter1Software patentsSep 09 08:58
DaemonFCtwitter1, So in a free market where you lose, the market is rigged?Sep 09 08:58
twitter1bye bye.Sep 09 08:58
twitter1why do I pay to enforce software patents?  there's no public interest in them.Sep 09 08:59
DaemonFCit's trivial to buy a computer with no OSSep 09 08:59
twitter1copyright of binary filesSep 09 08:59
twitter1bye byeSep 09 08:59
twitter1without these things, non free software would vanish overnight.Sep 09 08:59
twitter1the public pays for these disservicesSep 09 08:59
twitter1they should refuseSep 09 09:00
DaemonFCtwitter1, So where is the motivation for improvement or creation of new things?Sep 09 09:00
DaemonFCif you can't make money off them and anyone can steal your idea?Sep 09 09:00
twitter1I don't care.Sep 09 09:00
twitter1business methods never deserved patent protection, neither did software.Sep 09 09:01
DaemonFCwhere's the motivation to do better if you don't benefit from your own efforts?Sep 09 09:01
twitter1the free software world shows plenty of motivationSep 09 09:01
twitter1people can make money on things besides boxed softwareSep 09 09:01
DaemonFCtwitter1, You're saying that someone should go through the effort and hard work of inventing something so that someone else can take itSep 09 09:01
twitter1software is not an inventionSep 09 09:02
DaemonFCit would be like me getting a college degree so I could work and give you all my moneySep 09 09:02
DaemonFCwhat's in it for me?Sep 09 09:02
twitter1it's a method or mathSep 09 09:02
twitter1I don't know.  What's in free software for you?Sep 09 09:02
DaemonFCa new type of software is as much an invention as a new type of engine for a carSep 09 09:02
twitter1What's in it for Google?  Billions of dollars.Sep 09 09:02
DaemonFCso surely you think that the person who invents a new car engine design should get stiffed tooSep 09 09:03
twitter1Don't blame me for your inabilty to make money honestly, DaemonFC, and expect me to subsidize you with idiotic patent laws.Sep 09 09:03
twitter1a new engine might be a real invention.  software is not.Sep 09 09:04
DaemonFCthen don't expect me to do anything that benefits youSep 09 09:04
DaemonFCyou're proving my pointSep 09 09:04
DaemonFCyou want people to work and invent without being paidSep 09 09:04
twitter1I don't expect you to do anything for me.Sep 09 09:04
twitter1I want to be free to write software without having to pay a troll like M$ for some bullshit patent.Sep 09 09:04
twitter1I don't care what you do.Sep 09 09:04
DaemonFCtwitter1, Pretty much anything you buy, you're paying for someone's patentSep 09 09:04
DaemonFCeven buying a TV dinner, you're probably paying for a patented process somewhereSep 09 09:05
twitter1does that make it right, or more or a burden?Sep 09 09:05
DaemonFCif it wasn't for profitability, we'd still be a hunter gatherer societySep 09 09:05
DaemonFCthere wouldn't be any technology at allSep 09 09:05
DaemonFCwe'd all live in cavesSep 09 09:05
DaemonFCand live to the ripe old age of 20Sep 09 09:06
twitter1free software, so easy but DaemonFC can not understand it.Sep 09 09:06
twitter1DaemonFridgidCavemanSep 09 09:06
DaemonFCI understand that they mimic the proprietary software that preceded themSep 09 09:06
DaemonFCwhat have they done that was totally new?Sep 09 09:06
DaemonFCwhat have they done that has not been done before?Sep 09 09:07
twitter1name any major software that does not have roots in free or government projectsSep 09 09:07
DaemonFCyou're evading the questionSep 09 09:07
twitter1no, I'm showing you your errorSep 09 09:07
DaemonFCwhat totally new thing has free software given us?Sep 09 09:07
twitter1Maxsima -> Maple -> MathCAD and friendsSep 09 09:08
DaemonFCFirefox is more or less free software, but they didn't make the first successful web browsersSep 09 09:08
DaemonFCPidgin is free software, but it didn't invent instant messagingSep 09 09:08
DaemonFCor friends listsSep 09 09:08
twitter1Mosaic -> Spyglass -> IE and friendsSep 09 09:08
twitter1do you see a pattern in what I'm telling you?Sep 09 09:09
DaemonFCfree software is spawned in response to a broad category of proprietary softwareSep 09 09:09
DaemonFCwith rare exceptionSep 09 09:09
twitter1but nothing is really unique.Sep 09 09:09
DaemonFCit would be nice if the model produced something new that hadn't been tried ebforeSep 09 09:09
DaemonFC*beforeSep 09 09:09
DaemonFCimproving on a design is a good thing tooSep 09 09:10
DaemonFCbut it's not just free software that does thatSep 09 09:10
twitter1reasonable practitioners have the same ideas and implement them in softwareSep 09 09:12
twitter1that's why there should be no software patents, they steal methods from the commons.Sep 09 09:12
twitter1no one should have a monopoly on methodsSep 09 09:12
twitter1useful inventions, perhaps, but not methods and mathSep 09 09:12
twitter1The Knoll brothers made bunch of routines to manipulate images.  These became Photoshop.  Yet each and every one of these methods was implemented independently by hundreds of researchers.Sep 09 09:13
twitter1There's no end of the collections and the software written on top of them.Sep 09 09:13
twitter1No, non free software got it's start by stealing public software.Sep 09 09:13
twitter1Bell, a public monopoly, decided that they would own their government funded Unix.  ha!Sep 09 09:13
DaemonFCor maybe because it implemented the ideas in such a better way that theirs was worth paying for?Sep 09 09:14
DaemonFChundreds of thousands of people paying for PhotoshopSep 09 09:14
twitter1Several companies tried to split up and "monotize" maxsima.  Most failed.Sep 09 09:14
DaemonFCyou don't just fork over thousands of dollars without asking yourself if there's a damned good reason for itSep 09 09:14
twitter1If the implementation was so much better, these companies would not need patent protection, would they?Sep 09 09:15
twitter1How many thousands of dollars have you spent on software, DeaemonFC?Sep 09 09:15
DaemonFCif GIMP was really a Photoshop equal, then Photoshop would stop sellingSep 09 09:15
DaemonFCAdobe would go out of businessSep 09 09:15
DaemonFCGIMP is no Photoshop killerSep 09 09:15
MinceRexcept for all the people used to photoshop who won't even try anything elseSep 09 09:15
DaemonFCit's just a neat little bit of freewareSep 09 09:15
twitter1Photoshop is becoming small market.Sep 09 09:16
MinceRit isn't freeware, it's free softwareSep 09 09:16
MinceRfreeware is free proprietary software.Sep 09 09:16
DaemonFCsame thing to most peopleSep 09 09:16
twitter1mostly legacy and commercial work, nichesSep 09 09:16
twitter1Gimp is adequate for most users.Sep 09 09:16
twitter1Like I said, MinceR, legacy.Sep 09 09:17
MinceRs/free p/gratis p/Sep 09 09:17
MinceRto make it less ambiguous.Sep 09 09:17
DaemonFCso professional users for whom GIMP is not adequate should use GIMP anyway?Sep 09 09:17
DaemonFCeven though it doesn't do what they need?Sep 09 09:17
DaemonFCGIMP is probably driving Photoshop prices higher for people that do need itSep 09 09:18
DaemonFCby making the market for Photoshop smaller, Adobe would have to sell Photoshop at a much higher priceSep 09 09:18
DaemonFCso if GIMP is good enough for 75% of users, Photoshop has to be four times more expensive than it would otherwise beSep 09 09:19
DaemonFCGIMP isn't changing the fact that people are being gouged, it's just making fewer people get gouged much moreSep 09 09:20
schestowitzGIMP may not be BSTSep 09 09:21
schestowitz*BSTSep 09 09:21
DaemonFCso in the end, it's suppressing creativity so you can touch up photos of your AuntSep 09 09:21
schestowitz*BESTSep 09 09:21
schestowitzBut for more than 90% of users it's near perfectSep 09 09:21
schestowitzThey would not lack a single featureSep 09 09:21
MinceRand it beats photoshop in some waysSep 09 09:21
MinceRits GUI is superior, for exampleSep 09 09:22
DaemonFCickSep 09 09:22
MinceRthat's the InterCAL compiler.Sep 09 09:22
MinceRunrelated to GIMP.Sep 09 09:22
DaemonFCI really stopped using GIMP so much when GIMPshop started going unmaintainedSep 09 09:22
MinceRunless you want to implement INTERCAL-Fu, of course ;)Sep 09 09:22
DaemonFChmmm, when they get these last few really annoying bugs out of Epiphany Webkit, it's going to be one hell of a nice programSep 09 09:23
DaemonFCthat's kind of an annoying inconsistency of GNOME though if you ask meSep 09 09:24
DaemonFCEpiphany is nice and simple and straightforwardSep 09 09:24
DaemonFCthen you get to Evolution and it has an option for things you didn't know you even neededSep 09 09:25
DaemonFCI mean all kinds of options, like 30 in the right click menus alone :)Sep 09 09:25
MinceRoh noes, optionsSep 09 09:25
DaemonFCMinceR, There's a point between no options and overloadSep 09 09:25
MinceRand it's pointlessSep 09 09:25
DaemonFCI think that fact was lost on themSep 09 09:25
MinceRif you want an idiot box, buy a crApple "computer"Sep 09 09:26
DaemonFCwell, I don't know how exactly they put so many features in it and managed to miss the one or two I need every timeSep 09 09:26
DaemonFCI'm still using ThunderbirdSep 09 09:26
DaemonFCthough Claws is niceSep 09 09:27
DaemonFCClaws seems more like a GNOME application than EvolutionSep 09 09:27
MinceRat least Evolution handles IMAP (including offline mode and shared folders) correctlySep 09 09:27
twitter1So, DaemonFC, how much money have you spent on all of this wonderful, non free software?Sep 09 09:27
twitter1What's it really worth to you?Sep 09 09:27
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DaemonFCwhich software in particular?Sep 09 09:28
twitter1rude public network kicks people offSep 09 09:28
twitter1I thought the little DaemonFC had gone to bed.Sep 09 09:28
DaemonFCI would say that most of my games have given me at least enough amusement for what I paidSep 09 09:28
twitter1I must have missed how many thousands of dollars DaemonFC has spent on software.Sep 09 09:28
DaemonFCWhen did I do that?Sep 09 09:29
twitter1you didn't, because non free software is not really worth that much to you.Sep 09 09:29
twitter1just like a ditch is not worth that much to me, so you better not go out into your back yard to dig and expect to get rich that way.Sep 09 09:30
twitter1maybe if you got a patent on a clever method, you might make yourself the only person who could dig ditchesSep 09 09:30
twitter1then we could all thank you for your hard work.Sep 09 09:31
DaemonFCI don't remember doing that eitherSep 09 09:31
DaemonFCthe only hole in a backyard I'm tempted to dig right now......Sep 09 09:31
twitter1you asked me why you should go out and write softwareSep 09 09:31
DaemonFCout of good taste, I won't saySep 09 09:31
twitter1when people like me would not pay youSep 09 09:31
DaemonFCtwitter1, torture yourself all you likeSep 09 09:31
twitter1I answered that I did not know why you should exert yourselfSep 09 09:31
DaemonFCI don't think anyone has a patent on masochismSep 09 09:32
DaemonFCso you can jsut knock yourself outSep 09 09:32
twitter1no thanksSep 09 09:33
twitter1and I think we should all exert a lot less effort on software patents and copyright "protection" of other people's living.Sep 09 09:33
twitter1it's funny you should mention work and knocking myself out.  I'm at work right now and I'm surely knocking myself out.Sep 09 09:34
twitter1I'm doing it for pride in a job well done.Sep 09 09:35
DaemonFCtalking to me and being paid?Sep 09 09:35
DaemonFCwowSep 09 09:35
twitter1I'm taking data.  There's a lot of observing nothing.Sep 09 09:36
DaemonFCI'm sure you're doing a bangup job doing whatever it is you're doingSep 09 09:36
twitter1yes, thank you.Sep 09 09:36
twitter1;-)Sep 09 09:36
twitter1Some people do these things.Sep 09 09:36
twitter1PJ's take on the M$ OIN patent story is interesting 09 09:39
schestowitzYes, I saw thatSep 09 09:39
schestowitzI was gonna write about it tooSep 09 09:39
schestowitzI saw this ysterday morning (WSJ)Sep 09 09:39
DaemonFCEpiphany Webkit also seems to consume much less memorySep 09 09:40
DaemonFCI've had it open for hours with almost a dozen tabs at any time and it's only using 72 megs of RAMSep 09 09:40
schestowitzEverything in kde4 takes up less memorySep 09 09:44
schestowitzExcept knodeSep 09 09:44
schestowitzIt gobbles up more than beforeSep 09 09:44
twitter1good morning.Sep 09 09:44
schestowitzInvestors unhappy as Yahoo boss Bartz earns $2m from share sales from the Guardian reports that Yahoo’s CEO sold $2 million worth of shares since March of this year. Clearly, Yahoo investors are not happy that the CEO would make such a significant sale when the company continues to struggle to find its place.Sep 09 09:44
schestowitz 09 09:44
twitter1yes, KDE rocks like that.Sep 09 09:44
twitter1I hate having to fire up Mozilla.Sep 09 09:44
schestowitzBartzmer... she's not much of a YHOO fan, is she?Sep 09 09:44
twitter1but Mozilla does the unfriendly javascript very well.Sep 09 09:44
schestowitzShe said, "I didn't come here to sell the company"Sep 09 09:45
schestowitzTrueSep 09 09:45
schestowitzShe didn't sellSep 09 09:45
schestowitzShe sold outSep 09 09:45
schestowitzGave it to Ballmer for less than a billiobSep 09 09:45
schestowitzIdiot.Sep 09 09:45
twitter1trueSep 09 09:45
DaemonFCyou can easily use apps for KDE from within GNOME or vice versaSep 09 09:50
DaemonFCapplications shouldn't affect your choice of desktop too muchSep 09 09:50
twitter1yes, and it does not.  I use E16 but tend to run KDE apps before Gnome.Sep 09 09:50
twitter1with a few exceptions, like pidgin.Sep 09 09:51
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twitter1You are way out in front of the Patent Troll investigation, Roy.Sep 09 10:00
twitter1Your research on Innovative Research and the Gates Foundation are first rate.Sep 09 10:01
twitter1It's finally being picked up too.Sep 09 10:03
DaemonFCtwitter1, I've never really liked the minimal desktop environments or the window managers, maybe it's just meSep 09 10:11
twitter1E16 is not minimalSep 09 10:13
twitter1and you can augment it with other things, like KDE's kickerSep 09 10:14
twitter1at least you could with KDE3.5Sep 09 10:14
twitter1E16 has first rate pagers.Sep 09 10:15
twitter1the separation between virtual windows and virtual desktops is excellently carried out and it's very good for organizing work.Sep 09 10:16
twitter1KDE started to get their pager working, but they have a long way to go on the 2D front.Sep 09 10:17
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twitter1it is so fast and efficient that I don't want cubes and other eye candy.Sep 09 10:17
twitter1I've used E16 for five years or so and I've just scratched the surface of what it doesSep 09 10:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Wants to Attack Linux Using Patents, via Proxies/Trolls — Claim 09 10:27
twitter1NYT ridicules self congratulatory economists 09 10:27
schestowitz"They're professionals!"Sep 09 10:28
schestowitz--GreenspinachSep 09 10:28
twitter1the same paper praises another group of "professionals" who have wrought almost as much turmoil, 09 10:30
twitter1more security absurditySep 09 10:30
twitter1Before you dare plug your M$ or Apple Peeee Ceeee into a network, carefully do the the following 25 useless things.Sep 09 10:31
twitter11.  Turn on your firewall.  No specific or practical settings are given ....Sep 09 10:33
twitter1"Updating" your software....Sep 09 10:33
twitter12.  check for updates from Microsoft and accept whatever they saySep 09 10:34
twitter13.  Make sure your computer did #2Sep 09 10:34
twitter14. clicking the Start  buttonSep 09 10:35
twitter15. click  All ProgramsSep 09 10:35
twitter16. click Windows UpdateSep 09 10:36
twitter17. click “check for updates.”Sep 09 10:36
twitter18. visit M$ website to pretend you know what you are doing above.Sep 09 10:36
twitter19.  Sooner or later, you will see a screen asking if you want to  “Help protect Windows automatically.”Sep 09 10:37
twitter110. Choose the first option,  “Use recommended settings,”Sep 09 10:37
twitter1schedule exactly what time your updates by:Sep 09 10:38
twitter111 - 15 repeat steps 4 through 7.Sep 09 10:39
twitter116 - ?. select Change Settings and make your choicesSep 09 10:40
twitter1many clicks skippedSep 09 10:40
twitter1turn on the Internet Explorer Phishing Filter, unknown number of clicksSep 09 10:40
twitter1New subtask, ADD SECURITY SOFTWARESep 09 10:41
twitter1"Firewalls won’t help fend off viruses or Trojan horses that can come through e-mail messages, Web sites and pop-up ads. "Sep 09 10:41
twitter1many zero cost options are mentioned, "even penniless students  have no excuse to go without" but no gnu/linuxSep 09 10:42
twitter1many clicks not listed.Sep 09 10:42
twitter1above was poorly defined subtask, get an anti-virus program.Sep 09 10:43
twitter117.  New subtask - filter your internet, "Since a lot of malicious programs now come through Web sites, you will also want to use one of the many free tools available to help you avoid malicious sites."Sep 09 10:44
twitter1several programs are mentioned, all absolutely FREE.  unknown number of clicks to install said, begware skipped.Sep 09 10:45
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twitter1assume, generously, that getting all of your malware defense programs only cost you 10 clicks and half an hour.  ha ha.Sep 09 10:46
twitter127.  New subtask with many clicks - SORT OUT THE APPLICATIONSSep 09 10:47
twitter1"New Windows PCs typically come loaded [with crapware!]"Sep 09 10:47
twitter1eliminate the programs you don’t needSep 09 10:47
twitter128.  click Start buttonSep 09 10:48
twitter129.  click Control PanelSep 09 10:48
twitter130. click ProgramsSep 09 10:48
twitter131.   see a list of what is on your machineSep 09 10:49
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 10:49
twitter132 - ?  Select unwanted programs and then hit the Uninstall button at the top of the program list.Sep 09 10:49
twitter1Assume 5 clicks were skipped nuking dozens of programs.Sep 09 10:50
twitter137 - ?  sign up for automatic updates from the makers of any software you intend to keep - unknown number of clicks.Sep 09 10:50
twitter1Are we there yet?  NO!Sep 09 10:51
twitter140 - ?  To help you make sure you have checked out everything, download Secunia PSI,  Unknown number of clicks.Sep 09 10:51
twitter1above program will make sure that all the programs on your PC get security patches.  they promise, heya!Sep 09 10:52
twitter1a never ending task, "always be careful about which  software you install from the Internet"Sep 09 10:52
twitter1So, there are at least 40 worthless things to do for any new Windows computer.  Horrible isn't it?Sep 09 10:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Best Buy Reminds Us of the “New” Microsoft... the *Real* Microsoft! 09 10:53
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twitter1Does the author really expect people will do all of those things?  like print out the article and step by step clicky clicky?  you have to print it because the system will reboot itself about six time.Sep 09 10:54
twitter1schestowitz, what did RMS say about patents and mosquitoes?Sep 09 10:56
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twitter1cool article, Roy.Sep 09 10:59
MinceRi bet i could upgrade that new windblows computer to gnu/linux with way less than 40 clicksSep 09 11:05
DaemonFCso I tell Hulu to give me a long ad so I can go take a nice long leisurely pissSep 09 11:06
DaemonFCand they give me a 2 minute 30 second ad about birth control pillsSep 09 11:06
DaemonFCso I had time to get some iced tea made up too :)Sep 09 11:07
DaemonFCI know I don't want kids because kids are what stupid men haveSep 09 11:08
DaemonFCit's like Exxon, one spill and you pay for it for the rest of your lifeSep 09 11:09
DaemonFCso I'll stick to television and iced teaSep 09 11:09
DaemonFC:PSep 09 11:09
schestowitztwitter1: RMS: "Fighting patents one by one will never eliminate the danger of software patents, any more than swatting mosquitoes will eliminate malaria."Sep 09 11:11
twitter1thanks.Sep 09 11:11
DaemonFCso schestowitz, if you eliminate the mosquito, what happens?Sep 09 11:14
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 11:14
DaemonFCsurely they're more than just a nuisance?Sep 09 11:15
DaemonFCthey're part of a delicate system that doesn't react well to changeSep 09 11:15
MinceRecological catastrophe?Sep 09 11:15
MinceR:>Sep 09 11:15
DaemonFCMinceR, Everything that exists is part of the system, take out a piece at random just because it pissed you off, you could end up bringing the whole thing downSep 09 11:16
DaemonFCbetter that a few people die of malaria than the entire ecosystem of Earth breaks down and everything diesSep 09 11:16
DaemonFCwouldn't you agree?Sep 09 11:16
MinceRi wouldSep 09 11:17
MinceRi'd rather modify humans than modify the environment :)Sep 09 11:17
DaemonFCperhaps RMS could have phrased his argument differently?Sep 09 11:18
DaemonFCMinceR, We're a part of the system as wellSep 09 11:18
MinceRi'm sure he could haveSep 09 11:18
MinceRDaemonFC: we're already affected by forces other than evolutionSep 09 11:18
DaemonFCMinceR, I would compare humans to the Zebra MusselSep 09 11:18
twitter1MinceR and DaemonFC, your messages all have the same time stamps.....Sep 09 11:19
MinceRtwitter1: are you lagged?Sep 09 11:20
MinceRor hiding seconds? :>Sep 09 11:20
twitter1Nonsense -> DaemonFC: better that a few people die of malaria than the entire ecosystem of Earth breaks down and everything diesSep 09 11:21
twitter1no lag hereSep 09 11:21
twitter1the seconds were exact for about 20 linesSep 09 11:21
DaemonFCtwitter1, or maybe we kill the mosquito and more people die of starvation and AIDS?Sep 09 11:22
DaemonFCdoes that help?Sep 09 11:22
MinceRtwitter1: maybe your server is... or mineSep 09 11:23
twitter1100 years ago, mosquitoes would kill thousands of people a week in my home town, New Orleans.Sep 09 11:23
MinceRin any case, i don't see matching secondsSep 09 11:23
MinceRand irssi doesn't say i have 1s lag or moreSep 09 11:23
twitter1We can check the public logs later.Sep 09 11:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Seemingly Affected by Several More “Critical” Flaws This Month 09 11:23
MinceRthe ecosystem is not something to meddle with lightly.Sep 09 11:23
DaemonFCtwitter1, Now it's just hurricanes and people who live off the government complaining that we didn't pick them up and carry them out in timeSep 09 11:23
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 11:24
twitter1people drained the swamps around New Orleans and stopped dying.Sep 09 11:24
DaemonFCprogressSep 09 11:24
MinceRand how many animals and plants were killed by draining the swamps?Sep 09 11:24
twitter1you are too stupid for words, DaemonFC.Sep 09 11:24
DaemonFCMinceR, It doesn't matter, cause there's MORE PEOPLE nowSep 09 11:24
DaemonFCdon't you get it?Sep 09 11:24
DaemonFCwe're all that mattersSep 09 11:24
MinceRrightSep 09 11:25
DaemonFCif we have to kill hundreds of species to save a few of ourselves, so be itSep 09 11:25
DaemonFCright? yay humans!Sep 09 11:25
twitter1You are welcome to make yourself into plant food.Sep 09 11:25
MinceRafter all the best way for a human to die is by the consequences of overpopulation :>Sep 09 11:25
MinceRright?Sep 09 11:26
DaemonFCMinceR, It'll get to thatSep 09 11:26
DaemonFCalready has gotten to that for a lot of the worldSep 09 11:26
twitter1MinceR and DaemonFC will decide who lives and breeds.  That will be fair.Sep 09 11:26
DaemonFCirresponsible and indiscriminate breedingSep 09 11:26
MinceRtwitter1: quote my line that said i will decide on this matter.Sep 09 11:27
twitter1you advocate mosquitoes killing people.Sep 09 11:27
twitter1that is a decision.Sep 09 11:27
MinceRcongratulations, you've just failed at reading comprehension.Sep 09 11:27
DaemonFCpeople having 50 kids just to watch die of AIDS, malaria, and starvationSep 09 11:27
DaemonFCrelying entirely on people in other countries giving them hand outsSep 09 11:27
DaemonFCit's stupidity, madnessSep 09 11:28
twitter1I don't think even a communist big wig ever had 50 kids.Sep 09 11:28
MinceRthe first question would be "why are there so many mosquitoes where lots of people live?"Sep 09 11:28
MinceRimoSep 09 11:28
DaemonFCMinceR, If you were in one of these places, would YOU have 50 kids just so they could all die?Sep 09 11:28
twitter1because people live close to the water, it's basic transport.Sep 09 11:28
MinceRi'd rather notSep 09 11:29
DaemonFCthese places are like the closest thing to hell on EarthSep 09 11:29
twitter1more than 80% of the US lives in places like that.Sep 09 11:29
DaemonFCtwitter1, Oh bullshitSep 09 11:29
DaemonFCthere's some people that keep themselves in poverty and live on welfare by choiceSep 09 11:29
DaemonFCI wouldn't say that's the majoritySep 09 11:29
twitter1You think they all live in Kansas, woops there used to be lots of wetlands there too.Sep 09 11:30
twitter1what do you know about welfare and poverty?  -> there's some people that keep themselves in poverty and live on welfare by choiceSep 09 11:30
DaemonFCI believe in hell, absolutelySep 09 11:30
DaemonFCI believe people make their own hellSep 09 11:30
DaemonFCfor themselves to live inSep 09 11:30
MinceRthere's worseSep 09 11:31
MinceRpeople make my hell, tooSep 09 11:31
DaemonFCspeaking of hell, has anyone noticed that the Somali pirates are going after the countries they know won't shoot them now?Sep 09 11:32
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 11:32
MinceRi haven't heard of the somali pirates recentlySep 09 11:32
schestowitzMe neitherSep 09 11:33
schestowitzI hear a lot about "pirates" thoughSep 09 11:33
schestowitzMostly Windows uersSep 09 11:33
MinceRyarr!Sep 09 11:33
DaemonFCschestowitz, How much do you figure we could ransom each copy of Windows for?Sep 09 11:33
DaemonFCHow much do you figure they'll pay to have each one back safely?Sep 09 11:34
DaemonFC:DSep 09 11:34
twitter1Have you ever been on food stamps, DaemonFC?Sep 09 11:34
DaemonFCtwitter1, Uhhm, I've picked up overtime before or gotten a second job when I thought things were going to get that badSep 09 11:35
DaemonFCthere's always work, there's also always going to be people with an "I don't wanna work" acheSep 09 11:35
twitter1I'll take that as a no.  Your parents were hard working or well off and so are you.Sep 09 11:35
DaemonFCnot at allSep 09 11:36
twitter1but you don't know shit about poverty.Sep 09 11:36
DaemonFCthat's because I've made some effort to avoid itSep 09 11:36
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 11:36
twitter1it's pretty obvious from the obnoxious and stupid things you say.Sep 09 11:36
DaemonFCtwitter1, since I told you how much I DON'T get in welfare, how about you tell ME how many 60 hour weeks you've ever workedSep 09 11:37
DaemonFCI think it's only fairSep 09 11:37
twitter1I don't count them, thank you.Sep 09 11:37
twitter1I'm on the job right now.Sep 09 11:37
DaemonFCyeah, it has to happen firstSep 09 11:37
DaemonFCI keep forgetting that, sorrySep 09 11:38
twitter1one day, you will get a jobSep 09 11:38
DaemonFCI've had a fucking job ever since I was 16 years old and moved out on my ownSep 09 11:38
DaemonFCthank you very muchSep 09 11:38
twitter1mouthing off here is not working, FC.Sep 09 11:39
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DaemonFCwell, just because you've never pulled yourself up...Sep 09 11:39
DaemonFCI mean it's probably easy for you to milk the systemSep 09 11:39
DaemonFCis what I'm getting atSep 09 11:40
twitter1tell me more about meSep 09 11:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @pvilela: Continuar a usar formatos proprietários de documentos e video no século XXI é como continuar a usar papel selado para escreverSep 09 11:40
*amarsh04_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Sep 09 11:40
twitter1You seem to know all about New Orleans, welfare and me.  This is amusing.Sep 09 11:40
DaemonFCwell, I'm sure that like me, you had it so easy that you moved out at 16 and lived in your car for a few months just to get awaySep 09 11:41
DaemonFCbut what would I know about black people, hurricanes, and not getting the hell out of the way?Sep 09 11:41
DaemonFCyou're absolutely rightSep 09 11:41
twitter1living in your car taught you about "black people"?Sep 09 11:41
DaemonFCcause Jesse Jackson comes over and starts mouthing off that I didn't send them enough of my paycheckSep 09 11:42
twitter1and hurricanes?Sep 09 11:42
DaemonFCon the evening newsSep 09 11:42
twitter1????Sep 09 11:42
twitter1I think you have a racial hang up.Sep 09 11:42
DaemonFClook at the videos of the Walmart getting sackedSep 09 11:43
DaemonFCor the National Guard being shot atSep 09 11:43
DaemonFCthe only white person in any of the videos is the reporterSep 09 11:43
twitter1My brother in law was shot at.  Tell me about it.Sep 09 11:43
twitter1Tell me some more.Sep 09 11:44
DaemonFCthey cause the damned problem for themselves and then it's bitch bitch bitch about me not subsidizing more of their free shitSep 09 11:44
twitter1"they"?Sep 09 11:44
DaemonFCfrankly I'm sick of hearing itSep 09 11:44
DaemonFCit's not my problem that they didn't get out of thereSep 09 11:44
twitter1you know someone who says things like that?Sep 09 11:44
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 11:44
DaemonFCI'd rather they just take their steaks they got with food stamps and their big screen TVs that their SSI check paid for, said thank you, and went on their waySep 09 11:45
twitter1So, "they" should have just driven away.... like you did when you were 16?  In your mom's car.Sep 09 11:46
DaemonFCbut it's a sense of entitlement, and those never get much smallerSep 09 11:46
DaemonFCmy carSep 09 11:46
DaemonFCthat I paid for in cashSep 09 11:46
twitter1that's nice.Sep 09 11:46
DaemonFCI was more responsible at age 16 than those people are at any ageSep 09 11:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Gartner Group is Attacking Free Software, Again 09 11:46
twitter1what people?Sep 09 11:47
twitter1people who don't own a car?Sep 09 11:47
DaemonFCthose damned complainers in New OrleansSep 09 11:47
twitter1You sound a lot like the people at Innovative Emergency Management.Sep 09 11:47
twitter1Everyone just drive out of town!Sep 09 11:48
DaemonFCI would have let them drown too, the money we saved on food stamps and crazy checks are like instant reparations for the hurricane damageSep 09 11:48
DaemonFCheheSep 09 11:48
twitter1very funny.Sep 09 11:48
twitter1notSep 09 11:49
Diablo-D3new orleans was a mistake.Sep 09 11:49
Diablo-D3stuff like that makes me very angrySep 09 11:49
Diablo-D3this could have all been prevented at a fraction of what it continues to cost usSep 09 11:49
twitter1How about Manhattan?Sep 09 11:49
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, Save money? easy!Sep 09 11:49
DaemonFCtake the trailers back, auction them offSep 09 11:49
DaemonFClet the ingrates sleep under bridges for a whileSep 09 11:50
twitter1That's being done, actually.Sep 09 11:50
DaemonFCwe're soooooo meanSep 09 11:50
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: the trailers should be destroyedSep 09 11:50
Diablo-D3you know, that whole thing was fucked upSep 09 11:50
Diablo-D3FEMA bought them, and then wouldnt let anyone live in themSep 09 11:50
Diablo-D3and then, AND THEN, we finally find out whySep 09 11:50
twitter1probably.  they were full of harmful vollitiles that made people sick.Sep 09 11:50
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, Right, their free trailer has just enough of a microscopic amount of toxins in itSep 09 11:51
DaemonFCJUST ENOUGH to sue the government overSep 09 11:51
DaemonFCwhen they could have been sleeping under bridgesSep 09 11:51
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 11:51
twitter1the trailer parks were run like prisons.Sep 09 11:51
DaemonFClike I said, poor themSep 09 11:51
twitter1at one point, they banned reporters from visitingSep 09 11:51
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 11:51
DaemonFCtwitter1, Like I said, we should just take them backSep 09 11:52
DaemonFClet them fend for themselvesSep 09 11:52
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: there should be no toxic components used like thatSep 09 11:52
DaemonFCthere probably wasn'tSep 09 11:52
Diablo-D3there wasSep 09 11:52
Diablo-D3they used unsafe levels of toxinsSep 09 11:52
DaemonFCthey probably are exaggerating TRACE AMOUNTSSep 09 11:52
twitter1it made people sick.Sep 09 11:52
DaemonFCjust to sue the govt overSep 09 11:52
DaemonFCoh bullshitSep 09 11:52
DaemonFCthese people are mooches and freeloadersSep 09 11:53
DaemonFCthey'll hire an ambulance chasing lawyer to get more money for nothingSep 09 11:53
Diablo-D3I doubt itSep 09 11:53
Diablo-D3there really is a issue with that shitSep 09 11:53
twitter1What do you care FC, you wanted everyone to drown.Sep 09 11:54
DaemonFCambulance chasing lawyers and freeloaders?Sep 09 11:54
DaemonFCyeah, there is a problem in that they are allowed to operate that waySep 09 11:54
twitter1DaemonFC seems to have some sort of 1970's vision of the welfare state.Sep 09 11:54
twitter1and serious racial prejudicesSep 09 11:55
twitter1he's applied them both to disaster relief.Sep 09 11:55
DaemonFCI'm sure there was some white trash around somewhereSep 09 11:55
DaemonFCthere always isSep 09 11:56
twitter1I'm looking at it.Sep 09 11:56
twitter1;-)Sep 09 11:56
twitter1better drown them too.Sep 09 11:56
DaemonFCtwitter1, quit looking in the mirror nowSep 09 11:56
DaemonFCyour face will freeze like thatSep 09 11:57
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 11:57
twitter1or send in the mosquitoesSep 09 11:57
DaemonFCthe honkiesSep 09 11:57
DaemonFCthe crackersSep 09 11:58
DaemonFCthe cracker ass crackersSep 09 11:58
DaemonFCtwitter1, I thought about making a theme for Google Chrome that was designed to look like it was covered in duct tapeSep 09 11:58
DaemonFCthought about calling the theme Alabama ChromeSep 09 11:58
twitter1now you know about Alabama?Sep 09 11:59
DaemonFCsureSep 09 11:59
DaemonFCit's a little patch of Haiti right here in the US of ASep 09 11:59
DaemonFC:DSep 09 11:59
twitter1you must have seen that on TV too.Sep 09 11:59
DaemonFCwe could probably get out of this recession a lot quicker if we gave the deep south states to MexicoSep 09 12:00
DaemonFCjust sayingSep 09 12:01
twitter1your worldliness beggars descriptionSep 09 12:01
DaemonFCnah, giving Louisiana, Texas, and Alabama to Mexico would be like the best bait and switch since blankets infected with SmallpoxSep 09 12:02
DaemonFCI'm seriousSep 09 12:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Microsoft is so short on cash it can't afford balloons outside the US #failSep 09 12:03
twitter1the trolls here had the same talking points ->  Gartner is actively discouraging adoption of MySQL.Sep 09 12:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @davidgerard: Microsoft is so short on cash it can't afford balloons outside the US #failSep 09 12:05
DaemonFCif it handles like a tank and takes 3 hours to install....Sep 09 12:06
DaemonFCare you sure it's a conspiracy?Sep 09 12:06
twitter1ha ha.  The Reg missed the most important national slight of all in the Vista 7 launches.  Germany gets BEvERages in blue cups.Sep 09 12:16
twitter1everyone else is left high and drySep 09 12:16
twitter1sad really.Sep 09 12:20
twitter117 dead in Turkish floods. 09 12:21
twitter1tell us about it DaemonFCSep 09 12:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How Microsoft and Adobe change the agenda at public events and competitors 09 12:21
*magentar has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 09 12:23
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 12:25
twitter1Sleep, DaemonFC, you really outdid yourself last night.Sep 09 12:26
twitter1Major awful trolling.Sep 09 12:26
twitter1 Yuhong Bao loves to say, "I would not go that far"Sep 09 12:27
twitter1so does oiaohm.  do we have a sock puppet?Sep 09 12:29
schestowitzHe went on for a few days with almost no trollingSep 09 12:29
twitter1 09 12:29
twitter1confidence buildingSep 09 12:29
schestowitzHehe. Yeah, I noticedSep 09 12:29
schestowitzBut it's how he speaksSep 09 12:29
twitter1both of them?Sep 09 12:29
twitter1or is it someone's fake oriental accent?Sep 09 12:30
schestowitzjust yuhongSep 09 12:30
twitter1as Lefty mentioned the other month...Sep 09 12:30
*twitter has quit ( 09 12:30
twitter1hmmm I wonder why I left.Sep 09 12:31
twitter1up all night, ickSep 09 12:32
schestowitzOops.Sep 09 12:33
schestowitzI'm still marked as awaySep 09 12:34
*schestowitz Not used to the new iRC client yetSep 09 12:34
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzSep 09 12:34
twitter1you are right, it's just yuhong.Sep 09 12:34
schestowitztessier: pingSep 09 12:35
schestowitztessier: we may have found a better caching methodSep 09 12:35
schestowitztessier (when you get back): 09 12:35
schestowitztessier: Can enable it to then check effect on q/secSep 09 12:36
twitter1ah.  it was ohm.. I thought I remembered him saying that.Sep 09 12:36
twitter1it's a tiresome phrase.Sep 09 12:36
schestowitzEverything is tiresome at 4amSep 09 12:40
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 12:42
* gives channel operator status to twitterSep 09 12:42
schestowitzHoover is putting so much non-FOSS stuff in OStatic.. still. 09 12:45
schestowitzTry loading up an ng with 350,000 articlesSep 09 12:47
schestowitzoops.Sep 09 12:47
schestowitzWrong tabSep 09 12:47
schestowitzAsay digs the Gartner anti-FOSS rubbish.;titleSep 09 12:49
twitter1Things are more tiresome after listening to some kind of BS about how people in New Orleans deserved to drown.  Bad trolling last night.Sep 09 12:54
twitter1Racist and nasty.Sep 09 12:55
schestowitzCool. We got cited in Ostatic just now.. 09 12:55
schestowitz"George Bush doesn't care about black people.."Sep 09 12:55
twitter1No, that would have been nice.Sep 09 12:56
twitter1small sample -> (02:57:07 AM) DaemonFC: I would have let them drown too, the money we saved on food stamps and crazy checks are like instant reparations for the hurricane damageSep 09 12:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] "Microsoft used a similar approach in 1995, when it forced Intel to drop development of Native Signal Processing... 09 12:58
twitter1(02:50:33 AM) DaemonFC: cause Jesse Jackson comes over and starts mouthing off that I didn't send them enough of my paycheckSep 09 12:58
twitter1(02:50:37 AM) DaemonFC: on the evening newsSep 09 12:58
twitter1(02:38:14 AM) DaemonFC: there's some people that keep themselves in poverty and live on welfare by choiceSep 09 13:00
twitter1nutsSep 09 13:00
trmancohehSep 09 13:00
twitter1"reparations"Sep 09 13:04
schestowitzHTC's Tattoo Phone Runs Android, Provides Design, UI Options < >Sep 09 13:05
schestowitzTime to look more beyond MicrosofrtSep 09 13:05
schestowitzMicrosoft is basically dead beefSep 09 13:05
MinceRtime to look beyond android, too :>Sep 09 13:05
schestowitzThey already know itSep 09 13:05
schestowitzThe issues will be DRM, Apple, and SaaSSep 09 13:05
schestowitzAndroid id DRM drekSep 09 13:05
schestowitzIt's not a victory to FOSSSep 09 13:06
twitter1he he ->  schestowitz: Microsoft is basically dead beefSep 09 13:06
MinceR0xdeadbeefSep 09 13:07
twitter1yesSep 09 13:07
twitter1oooohhhh, shiny phone.Sep 09 13:08
schestowitzChristopher Blizzard (Mozilla)Sep 09 13:08
schestowitzOgg promoterSep 09 13:08
twitter1the keep putting the camera on the wrong side.Sep 09 13:09
schestowitz /shiny/shi*y/Sep 09 13:09
twitter1how are you supposed to do video phone like that?Sep 09 13:09
twitter1with a mirror?Sep 09 13:09
twitter1the real question is boot.Sep 09 13:11
twitter1can you boot the OS of your choice with it or is it a Tivo?Sep 09 13:11
MinceRnormal models are tivoizedSep 09 13:15
MinceRdev versions aren't but they aren't guaranteed to be usable as a phone.Sep 09 13:16
MinceRalso, you have to give out personal details to google before you can even register as a developer, which is a prerequisite to obtaining oneSep 09 13:16
MinceR(also, it costs money)Sep 09 13:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Windows Interface Source Environment: || This... 09 13:16
twitter1you are probably better off with wifi only anyway -> MinceR: dev versions aren't but they aren't guaranteed to be usable as a phone.Sep 09 13:17
MinceRnot reallySep 09 13:18
MinceRwifi coverage is tinySep 09 13:18
MinceRand most of it is privateSep 09 13:18
twitter1but you get to keep your software and network freedom that way.  Open Spectrum is the real solution.  I know, I'm a broken record.Sep 09 13:19
schestowitztrmanco: blog about the WISE-Mono relationship, pleaseSep 09 13:20
twitter1As things are, I don't want any of these "smart phones"Sep 09 13:20
trmancomehSep 09 13:20
trmancoTHan I'm gonna be attackedSep 09 13:20
trmanco 09 13:20
twitter1You will be attacked for being here.  Might as well have fun and earn it.Sep 09 13:21
trmancostuff has been quite for meSep 09 13:21
trmancoquiet*Sep 09 13:21
twitter1the poor trolls had a little party when I started to submit stories with "Microsoft" instead of "M$"Sep 09 13:22
schestowitz lawsuit in 3, 2, 1....Sep 09 13:23
twitter1I disappointed them right away. 09 13:23
schestowitztrmanco: so I'll write about it, not cite itSep 09 13:23
schestowitzApropos, fear of criticising Mono is exactly what they wantSep 09 13:24
trmancoIt's not really fearSep 09 13:24
schestowitzIt's a form of gagging... like the poilitically-correct paradigmSep 09 13:24
trmancoI would not call it fear in my caseSep 09 13:24
schestowitzA form of censorshop by intimidationSep 09 13:24
schestowitzNoSep 09 13:24
schestowitzSome editors worrySep 09 13:24
schestowitzLike when Chris Smart wrrote about MonoSep 09 13:25
trmancojust see the wise part on that pdfSep 09 13:25
schestowitzEditors don't want to be seen as criticising MonoSep 09 13:25
trmancoand see if it doesn't make you remind on .NET and MonoSep 09 13:25
trmancothe EU should continue to sue microsoftSep 09 13:25
trmanco...Sep 09 13:26
trmancoand force them to remove IE and WMP from it's OS for example, these two apps were only made to cause problems and extend the companies monopolySep 09 13:27
trmancocompany'sSep 09 13:27
*trmanco goes back to reading that pdfSep 09 13:27
*trmanco reads about JavaSep 09 13:28
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twitter1ah, the 90's when ruining a company was so much cheaper ->  A ruling later ordered Microsoft to pay $1 Million to Bristol TechnologiesSep 09 13:31
trmanco"Consistent with its behavior in response to other competitive threats, Microsoft has usedSep 09 13:31
trmancounfair and anti-competitive tactics to try and slow the uptake of Linux. In particular, MicrosoftSep 09 13:31
trmancohas made and continues to make broad, unsubstantiated claims that software developersSep 09 13:31
trmancodistributing Linux or other open source software, as well as their customers, are infringingSep 09 13:31
trmancoMicrosoft’s patents.130 However, although Microsoft has claimed that as many as 235 patentsSep 09 13:31
trmancomay have been infringed131, it has consistently failed to identify which patents are at issue."Sep 09 13:31
twitter1aaarrrrG!Sep 09 13:31
twitter1bumped by this network again.Sep 09 13:32
twitter1yes, that's a little suspicious!Sep 09 13:33
trmanco?Sep 09 13:33
twitter1You are violating hundreds of our secret patents!Sep 09 13:33
trmancoLOLSep 09 13:33
twitter1We are so proud of our innovation that we can't tell you about it unless you take this big pile of cash and agree they are great.Sep 09 13:34
MinceRthe emperor's clothes :>Sep 09 13:34
twitter1or we will Crush you!Sep 09 13:34
twitter1Borat Voice, "If you cheat, I willl crush you."Sep 09 13:35
trmanco"Even when Microsoft claims to be implementing a standard, the reality is that Microsoft’sSep 09 13:35
trmancoimplementations routinely either only partially conform or else somehow extend the standard, soSep 09 13:35
trmancothat software developed to work with Microsoft’s version of the standard will not work withSep 09 13:35
trmancoother vendors’ implementations of the same standard."Sep 09 13:35
trmancoex. ODFSep 09 13:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is #Mono WISE? 09 13:35
schestowitz Flight site hacker 'identified' < >Sep 09 13:36
schestowitzDo they care just because it's related to MS Flight Sim?Sep 09 13:36
trmancohehSep 09 13:36
trmancothat was fast schestowitzSep 09 13:36
twitter1ODF, C, java, javascript, ASCI ...Sep 09 13:36
trmancoasci?Sep 09 13:37
trmancooh yeahSep 09 13:37
trmancothe windows-1502 charsetSep 09 13:37
twitter1ASCIISep 09 13:37
trmancoor whatever that isSep 09 13:37
twitter1yes, they corrupted ASCIISep 09 13:37
trmancoyeah, I understoodSep 09 13:37
trmancothey triedSep 09 13:37
trmanco...Sep 09 13:37
twitter1Word was not enough.Sep 09 13:37
twitter1line feeds and returns were not enoughSep 09 13:38
schestowitzWell, they can't be taken to jail for itSep 09 13:38
schestowitzin worse scenario, they'll pay finesSep 09 13:38
schestowitzAnd then "give meals to the poor" to do the PR thingSep 09 13:38
twitter1let them eat Vista coupons.Sep 09 13:38
schestowitzAnd masses of foolish sheep will not realise that a criminal company is running rounds on emSep 09 13:38
trmanco"HTML standard used for writing web pages.146 Unfortunately, Microsoft’s implementation isSep 09 13:38
trmancosubtly incompatible with the standard, which could lead web developers who test their sites inSep 09 13:38
trmancoInternet Explorer 8 to write their sites in a way that will not work in other browsers.147 Other,Sep 09 13:38
trmancoearlier examples of this conduct include Microsoft’s approach to the Windows graphical userSep 09 13:39
trmancointerface (discussed in section II.A) and Microsoft’s approach to Java developer tools (discussedSep 09 13:39
trmancoin section II.H). Again, these are just a few examples of Microsoft’s hollow interoperabilitySep 09 13:39
trmancopromises. Microsoft’s history clearly demonstrates its longstanding practice of making one setSep 09 13:39
trmancoof statements about interoperability in public and then implementing a wholly different approachSep 09 13:39
trmancoto interoperability in practice."Sep 09 13:39
trmancothey are following closely the development of html5Sep 09 13:39
schestowitzHeheSep 09 13:39
schestowitzTo see how to derail it maybeSep 09 13:39
trmancoand it might be for the reason stated aboveSep 09 13:39
schestowitzInject something into oitSep 09 13:39
trmancoyesSep 09 13:39
schestowitzThey have a chair in the working group nowSep 09 13:39
schestowitzNot WIlsonSep 09 13:39
trmancoI would say videoSep 09 13:39
schestowitzAnd their buddy Apple is there tooSep 09 13:39
trmancowmv <video>Sep 09 13:40
trmancoyesSep 09 13:40
schestowitzx-|Sep 09 13:40
twitter1nooooooo!Sep 09 13:40
twitter1I imagine M$ will soon be handing out "surplus" Vista DVDs, to unfortunate people who "know someone"Sep 09 13:40
trmancobut at least they "stole" an html engine that supports videoSep 09 13:40
*Ng ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 13:40
Nghuh, OIN bought a bunch of Microsoft patentsSep 09 13:40
trmancoI wonder is khtml support html videoSep 09 13:40
twitter1there are so many places to stick Steve Ballmer's head here 09 13:41
trmancowhat for?Sep 09 13:41
trmancoporn?Sep 09 13:41
twitter1M$ patents porn?Sep 09 13:41
twitter1that would be goodSep 09 13:41
trmancono the sireSep 09 13:41
trmancoit's from the creators of pirate baySep 09 13:41
trmanco"uncensored image hosting"Sep 09 13:41
trmancowe need more stuff like thatSep 09 13:41
trmancois the RIAA going to sue that site too?Sep 09 13:42
twitter1yes, very nice.  it's almost as nice as a public library ....Sep 09 13:42
trmanco"yes it contain copywrited images" blah blah blahSep 09 13:42
trmancono search?Sep 09 13:43
trmanco 09 13:43
trmanco:DSep 09 13:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Goldman Sachs Insiders Steal 200 Million a Day" < >Sep 09 13:44
schestowitzWall Street -- Death Profits < >Sep 09 13:45
schestowitzIs the police in the United States still operating?Sep 09 13:45
trmanco"Microsoft’s conduct has allowed it to protect its monopolies, which has led to a lack ofSep 09 13:46
trmancochoice, higher prices, and less innovation than would otherwise have prevailed in a competitiveSep 09 13:46
trmancomarketplace. The barriers to entry surrounding Microsoft’s core monopolies remain very high,Sep 09 13:46
trmancoand Microsoft’s market shares and profit margins in desktop operating systems, officeSep 09 13:46
trmancoproductivity suites, and browsers have continued to reflect its overwhelming monopoly power inSep 09 13:46
trmancothese markets.148 In short, Microsoft’s misconduct has harmed and continues to harm consumersSep 09 13:46
trmancosignificantly."Sep 09 13:46
schestowitz"Immediately after the AIG bailout, Paulson announced his federal bailout for the financial industry, a $700 billion plan called the Troubled Asset Relief Program, and put a heretofore unknown 35-year-old Goldman banker named Neel Kashkari in charge of administering the funds."Sep 09 13:46
schestowitz 09 13:47
twitter1I don't know if you saw this one the other day.... 09 13:48
twitter1the net scrubbers instantly labeled it "offensive"Sep 09 13:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Linux phone is coming. 09 13:48
schestowitzMorse sales and profits sink in economic storm < >Sep 09 13:49
trmanco"The Windows API is … so deeply embedded in the source code of many WindowsSep 09 13:50
trmancoapps that there is a huge switching cost to using a different operating systemSep 09 13:50
trmancoinstead. … It is this switching cost that has given customers the patience to stickSep 09 13:50
trmancowith Windows through all our mistakes, our buggy drivers, our high TCO, ourSep 09 13:50
trmancolack of a sexy vision at times, and many other difficulties… Customers constantlySep 09 13:50
trmancoevaluate other desktop platforms, [but] it would be so much work to move overSep 09 13:50
trmancothat they hope we just improve Windows rather than force them to move. In short,Sep 09 13:50
trmancowithout this exclusive franchise called the Windows API, we would have beenSep 09 13:50
schestowitz 09 13:50
trmancodead a long time ago."Sep 09 13:50
trmanco"EC Decision, supra note 52, ¶ 463 (citing an internal Microsoft memo drafted for Bill Gates by C++ GeneralSep 09 13:50
trmancoManger Aaron Contorer and dated Feb. 21, 1997)."Sep 09 13:50
schestowitzI have this memoSep 09 13:50
schestowitzIn BN, as textSep 09 13:50
trmancoI like the registerSep 09 13:52
twitter1Over the last 10 years, everything has been rewritten with free software.Sep 09 13:52
trmancoa site like that could only be from outside the USSep 09 13:52
schestowitzAh GawdSep 09 13:52
schestowitzMicrosoft shill Gavin Clarke portrays Microsoft firearm sale as a good deed for Microsoft. ROLLS EYES. 09 13:53
schestowitzTHe Register is ruined by those shillsSep 09 13:53
schestowitztrmanco: THe Regsiter changedSep 09 13:53
schestowitzTHey signed a deal with MicrosftSep 09 13:54
schestowitzThen had Live/MSN toolbarSep 09 13:54
trmancobut ti still has some qualitySep 09 13:54
schestowitzAnd they also have Microturfs in the staffSep 09 13:54
schestowitzSome.Sep 09 13:54
trmancobut they still have some quality*Sep 09 13:54
twitter1ho ho, there was a report from Office Depot.Sep 09 13:54
twitter1that means the Best Buy rejection was more than an isolated incident.Sep 09 13:54
twitter1it's nice to think this was a common reaction.Sep 09 13:55
twitter1"Windows 7 more secure than GNU/Linux, like the stuff that runs Google and most of the web?  Yeah, right!"Sep 09 13:55
twitter1-> Redmond has acknowledged the materials are authentic.Sep 09 13:56
twitter1wowSep 09 13:56
schestowitz"On Tuesday, Microsoft responded with MS09-048, a security advisory that fixes a variety of networking vulnerabilities in Windows operating systems, including those discovered by Louis and Lee."Sep 09 13:56
schestowitz 09 13:56
twitter1what I like is that these holes were left open for more than a year.Sep 09 13:57
schestowitzOffice Depot?Sep 09 13:57
schestowitzWait.Sep 09 13:57
schestowitzAre they in it too?Sep 09 13:57
schestowitzWe have Staples and Best Buck [sic]Sep 09 13:57
twitter1yes, that's what the Reg article is about.Sep 09 13:57
twitter1remember the accusation that M$ left these holes open on purpose but fixed them in Vista 7 RTM, just so they could say "Windows 7 is the secure in ways that XP and Vista are not"?Sep 09 13:59
schestowitzI like how they paint Linux is RedSep 09 13:59
schestowitzAnd Windows 7 in greenSep 09 13:59
trmancomore on wiseSep 09 13:59
schestowitzSee the second image and firstSep 09 13:59
trmanco“Please give me one good reason why we should even consider [enablingSep 09 13:59
trmancoMicrosoft technology to work on competing systems]. (Hint: any good answerSep 09 13:59
trmanconeeds to include making more money and helping kill Unix, Sybase or Oracle.)”Sep 09 13:59
trmanco—James Allchin, Microsoft Senior Vice-President51"Sep 09 13:59
trmancowaitSep 09 13:59
trmancoI'll past this on bnSep 09 13:59
trmancopaste*Sep 09 13:59
twitter1penguin in hellfire!Sep 09 14:00
schestowitzIt would look different if Linux background was greenSep 09 14:01
schestowitzAnd Windows 7 in redSep 09 14:01
schestowitzThey play psychological marketing game,Sep 09 14:01
schestowitzLinux is fire and bloodSep 09 14:01
twitter1 09 14:01
twitter1Software Communism!Sep 09 14:01
twitter1Let Big Brother Love and Watch you instead.Sep 09 14:02
schestowitzGangesterSep 09 14:02
schestowitz*GangstersSep 09 14:02
twitter1Linux is selling his source code to the Red Chinese!Sep 09 14:03
*amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04Sep 09 14:03
twitter1Uncle Ballmer would never do that.Sep 09 14:03
twitter1No matter Ho came to dinner.Sep 09 14:04
twitter1 09 14:05
trmanco 09 14:05
trmancothereSep 09 14:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @wikileaks We need you! We now have to spend ALL our time fundraising. Help keep WikiLeaks PUBLISHING: - please fwdSep 09 14:07
twitter1very well done.Sep 09 14:07
twitter1it's funny M$ thinks they can get away with the same tricks again and again.Sep 09 14:08
trmancothe hole pdf is on bn anywaySep 09 14:08
trmancowhole*Sep 09 14:08
twitter1yes, but context is good.Sep 09 14:09
trmancolunch time brbSep 09 14:10
twitter1All of Comes vs Microsoft is somewhere on the web.Sep 09 14:10
twitter1enjoy lunchSep 09 14:10
trmancothanksSep 09 14:10
twitter1pulling the threads together makes the whole valuable.Sep 09 14:11
twitter1Poor Kraft.  Bought by Phillip Morris.  Now comes cost cutting.Sep 09 14:12
twitter1PS3 Beatles game gets a lot of press.  I suppose they are the ReFab 4 now.Sep 09 14:16
schestowitzSee last comment here: 09 14:16
twitter1Joseph SHill?Sep 09 14:17
twitter1almost all the comments there are good.Sep 09 14:19
twitter1->  Sounds awfully similar to the arguments I was hearing 10-11 years ago when it was ActiveX which was going to pull World+dog into Microsoft's orbit as no other browser platform than IE would be able to handle the great content being made with ActiveX.Sep 09 14:19
twitter1->  Much like OfficeOpenXML will be over us all so we'd better welcome it over OpenDocument, because Microsoft will never implement the latter. Except they did, because customers demanded it. Just like they did with this thing called "the web" a couple of years ago.Sep 09 14:19
twitter1->  What do you think will be more successful: a web application framework created and implemented by Microsoft, a web application framework created and implemented by Adobe, or a web application framework created and implemented by Microsoft, Google, Apple, Mozilla, Nokia and a whole lot more companies?Sep 09 14:20
trmancolast optionSep 09 14:23
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twitter1bblSep 09 14:28
*twitter1 has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 09 14:28
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trmancoschestowitz: have you posted the logs from yesterday?Sep 09 14:44
*DaemonFC ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 14:44
trmancoI need to copy some links from thereSep 09 14:44
trmancofound itSep 09 14:46
trmancoforget itSep 09 14:46
schestowitztrmanco: ys, they are upSep 09 14:47
trmancoyep seen themSep 09 14:47
schestowitzHere's an ideaSep 09 14:48
schestowitzFor those with extra time in their hands... to find out how many US stores flogged the anti-Linux material from MicrosoftSep 09 14:49
schestowitzWe have 3 large US retailers nowSep 09 14:49
schestowitzNone outside the US that we know about, yetSep 09 14:49
schestowitzI'm gonna do another post exposing this and making an index in the WikiSep 09 14:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Trying out the ubuntu-boot ppa from @keybuk. Scary.Sep 09 14:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Confirmed: #Microsoft Brought Anti-GNU/Linux #Propaganda to #OfficeDepot Too (3rd US retailer so far) 09 14:53
schestowitzTomorrow there will be Microsoft PR from ParisSep 09 14:54
schestowitzThe whole interop thingSep 09 14:54
schestowitzMore lies and pretenceSep 09 14:54
schestowitz "Whereas Windows 7's release candidate gave me a blue screen of death while running Abobe Illustrator yesterday.."Sep 09 15:05
schestowitzBut the fans of Window (shills for the most part) claim that BSoD is a thing of the pastSep 09 15:06
schestowitzSeems like another VIstaSep 09 15:06
DaemonFCI didn't experience any in the RTMSep 09 15:08
DaemonFCI had plenty of them in the betas and RCSep 09 15:08
trmancoit will need to take a dump soon, just keep using it, but don't put heavy load on it, or elseSep 09 15:13
trmancothose fuckers raised the price of 7!Sep 09 15:16
trmanco"it was 49.99 for an upgrade and then I check today and it's 119.99Sep 09 15:16
trmancoARGH!Sep 09 15:16
trmanco(going from Vista to 7)Sep 09 15:16
trmancosons of biOOOOtches"Sep 09 15:16
trmancoLOLSep 09 15:16
trmancofollow upSep 09 15:17
trmanco"Ubuntu FTW. Linux has changed my view of computers. Everything is muchSep 09 15:17
trmancoeasier and virus free. Don't take the plunge mate! Take the time to Linux!"Sep 09 15:17
DaemonFCtrmanco: the $50 was only for the first 2 weeks of preordersSep 09 15:17
schestowitzGoogle Will Seek EU Publishers’ Permission For US Books Project < >Sep 09 15:18
trmancothey should have given a free upgrade to all the vista usersSep 09 15:18
trmancoFREE!Sep 09 15:18
schestowitzAll WindowsSep 09 15:19
schestowitzAnd OfficeSep 09 15:19
schestowitzOld argumentSep 09 15:19
schestowitzAbout making Office obsoleteSep 09 15:19
schestowitzThtough format incompatSep 09 15:19
schestowitzOld tricksSep 09 15:19
schestowitzManaging to selll the same product over and over againSep 09 15:19
schestowitzThey say that's the "genius" of gates|MicrosoftSep 09 15:19
schestowitzOnly a monopolist can get away with itSep 09 15:19
schestowitzUpgrades are a but like patahcesSep 09 15:19
schestowitzExcept they get called Service Pack or the like of itSep 09 15:20
schestowitzVista 7 should be a SP for VIstaSep 09 15:20
schestowitzre: GoogleSep 09 15:20
schestowitzI want books digitised, but not by GoogleSep 09 15:20
schestowitzMake it an effort like socialismSep 09 15:20
schestowitzMake the books be managed by all of usSep 09 15:21
schestowitzNot GoogleSep 09 15:21
schestowitzPlasmonic Laser Heralds New Generation of Computing < >Sep 09 15:21
schestowitzChina's new real-name requirement: another global trend 09 15:21
schestowitzRussian Facebook Clone Planning International Expansion: Peculiar Competition to Facebook 09 15:24
schestowitzThe Andrew Thomas     shill is doing the job for Microsoft againSep 09 15:26
schestowitzTrying to portray them as innocentSep 09 15:26
schestowitzWith a 'lovely' photo of BallmerSep 09 15:26
schestowitz"Microsoft cleared in Russian antitrust case"Sep 09 15:26
schestowitzMicrosoft 'buys' those journosSep 09 15:26
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 15:30
schestowitz"Myhrvold is using the patent system in a way that does just the opposite. In thinking about how to reform the patent system, a good yardstick would be to look for policy changes that would tend to put Myhrvold and his firm out of business." 09 15:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Tuning in to random numbers" < > interesting, via @glynmoodySep 09 15:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @glynmoody Another Reason Open Source is Better: No Abandonware - Microsoft gives up trying to patch Windows 2kSep 09 15:43
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 15:46
schestowitz Don't be fooled: swine flu still poses a deadly threat < >Sep 09 15:46
schestowitzIs There Any Innovation That Hollywood Won't Try To Kill? 09 15:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another reason to dislike Big Media: "How The UK Gov't Extrapolated 136 Self-Reported File Sharers Into 7 Million" 09 15:56
schestowitzDaemonFC: Glenn Beck Didn't Rape And Murder Anyone... But He Doesn't Want Websites Discussing It < >Sep 09 15:58
schestowitz^^your b/f, DaemonFCSep 09 15:58
schestowitzDaemonFC <3 GlennSep 09 15:59
DaemonFC...Sep 09 16:01
schestowitz "Silence Techdirt"Sep 09 16:01
schestowitzLOLSep 09 16:01
schestowitzOnly $100mlSep 09 16:01
schestowitzSprint Offers Palm Pre For $100 For A Month, Maybe Two... Then, Oops, Not At All < >Sep 09 16:02
DaemonFCStreisand EffectSep 09 16:04
schestowitzLOLSep 09 16:07
schestowitzBiggest Windows glitch ever? 09 16:07
schestowitzWatch the pictureSep 09 16:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Biggest Windows glitch ever? 09 16:07
MinceRFUD avalanche from m$ >> 09 16:10
DaemonFCschestowitz: 09 16:12
DaemonFCdid you ever think about helping with that?Sep 09 16:12
schestowitzMinceR: old news?Sep 09 16:12
schestowitz 09 16:13
MinceRmight beSep 09 16:13
schestowitz"..have read and understand the Privacy Policy."Sep 09 16:14
schestowitzSpyware?Sep 09 16:14
schestowitzMinceR: BN made 3 posts about itSep 09 16:14
schestowitzSoon 4Sep 09 16:14
MinceRicSep 09 16:14
schestowitz4th is about Office DepotSep 09 16:14
schestowitzTHey had this done there tooSep 09 16:14
schestowitzAnd Staples had another thingSep 09 16:15
schestowitzWal-Mart..?Sep 09 16:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: can you find out about Wal-Mart?Sep 09 16:15
schestowitzYou used to work thereSep 09 16:15
DaemonFCschestowitz: Probably notSep 09 16:15
schestowitzMaybe former colleagues you can phone to ask if they got indocrinated?Sep 09 16:15
DaemonFCthey deleted my Pipeline/Wire login when I quit obviouslySep 09 16:15
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 16:15
schestowitzWell done for quittingSep 09 16:16
schestowitzYou don't need to help that beastSep 09 16:16
DaemonFCschestowitz: I might be able to talk to one of the employees there who would have gotten such a moduleSep 09 16:16
DaemonFCif he still works thereSep 09 16:16
schestowitz"An Obama administration official was pressured to resign by Republicans. They attacked him for calling Republicans "assholes", which is nothing compared to what they call Obama, and for doubting the official story of who was behind the 9/11 attacks."Sep 09 16:17
schestowitz 09 16:17
DaemonFCthey would only give out the module to people who work at least part time in electronicsSep 09 16:17
DaemonFCthat would mean at least 16 hours a week in that department regularlySep 09 16:17
schestowitzModule... heheSep 09 16:17
schestowitzLike robots on the production lineSep 09 16:17
DaemonFCthey don't give you the raise unless you work at least half your hours there thoughSep 09 16:18
DaemonFCfor at least 3 weeks in a rowSep 09 16:18
schestowitzModule #00f4 installed into $employee #555FGS5GSep 09 16:18
DaemonFCso they like to do things like 16 hours, 16 hours, 15 hours, repeatSep 09 16:18
DaemonFCthey get to short you 50 cents an hour that waySep 09 16:18
DaemonFCthey also do that with some of the hourly management so they can continue paying them cashier or stocker wagesSep 09 16:19
DaemonFCif the assistant manager thinks he or she can dupe someone into working the extra responsibilities for free, they do itSep 09 16:19
schestowitzThe likes of Wal-Mart still call the shots in USia though... 09 16:20
DaemonFCschestowitz: It only took me about 6 months of working there to become a department manager, and about another 6 months to go salarySep 09 16:21
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DaemonFCsome people stay there in the same position for years on endSep 09 16:21
DaemonFCwell, most doSep 09 16:21
schestowitz "German foreign minister calls attack 'necessary' as US commanders criticise ordering mission that left 70 civilians dead"Sep 09 16:21
schestowitzMore killing of innoncentSep 09 16:22
schestowitzThey beg for resentment this wauSep 09 16:22
schestowitz*waySep 09 16:22
DaemonFCthat's why I said get into management, get into college, or prepare to spend the rest of your life eating shit and grinningSep 09 16:22
DaemonFCyou'll never get ahead in that company if you're paid by the hourSep 09 16:22
schestowitzWal-Mart the Beast Eats IndianaSep 09 16:22
schestowitzRed-StroeSep 09 16:23
schestowitzRd-St*reSep 09 16:23
DaemonFCthey'll give you raises that don't even work out to inflation each yearSep 09 16:23
schestowitzIs there inflation?Sep 09 16:23
DaemonFCinflation can go up 4-5% and you may only get a 30-40 cent raiseSep 09 16:23
DaemonFCyou figure it out :)Sep 09 16:23
schestowitzIn the US, have food prices risen sharply yet?Sep 09 16:23
schestowitzY'know, to help the many unemployed...?Sep 09 16:23
DaemonFCschestowitz: Not really, they've gone down actuallySep 09 16:23
DaemonFCaround here anywaySep 09 16:24
DaemonFCWalmart is in a vicious price war with ALDISep 09 16:24
schestowitzALDI?Sep 09 16:24
DaemonFCthey already ran a local grocery store out of townSep 09 16:24
schestowitzIn the US?Sep 09 16:24
DaemonFCyeahSep 09 16:24
schestowitzIsn't it Irish?Sep 09 16:24
DaemonFCGermanSep 09 16:24
schestowitzOh.Sep 09 16:24
DaemonFCthey're trying to out-cheap each otherSep 09 16:24
DaemonFCso they're selling most grocery items below costSep 09 16:25
schestowitzWell, you know who wins,..Sep 09 16:25
schestowitzThe one that mistreats the staff better and pays lessSep 09 16:25
schestowitzLower wages -> Power costsSep 09 16:25
schestowitzEveryone's happy, temporarilySep 09 16:25
DaemonFCas long as you either get it at ALDI or buy the generic Walmart groceries, you get a pretty good dealSep 09 16:25
schestowitz /power/lowerSep 09 16:25
DaemonFCyeah, can't go on forever obviouslySep 09 16:25
schestowitzGood to whom?Sep 09 16:25
schestowitzPeople are dumbSep 09 16:25
schestowitzTHey don't understand economic consequencesSep 09 16:26
DaemonFCschestowitz: ALDI actually pays much betterSep 09 16:26
schestowitzIt's like Russia 15 years agoSep 09 16:26
DaemonFCthey start out around $10 an hour hereSep 09 16:26
DaemonFCWalmart starts at around $7.50 /hrSep 09 16:26
schestowitzBut they also eliminate jobsSep 09 16:26
schestowitzCentralisationSep 09 16:26
DaemonFCALDI is much more efficient in many waysSep 09 16:27
schestowitzMom and pop shops mean more jobs IN THE HANDS OF WORKERSSep 09 16:27
schestowitzAs in, those who work in 'the mills' own the millsSep 09 16:27
schestowitzI.e. collect the sweat of their browSep 09 16:27
schestowitzPeople have a simplified model of thingsSep 09 16:27
DaemonFCthere haven't been any real "mom and pop" stores I've seen in yearsSep 09 16:27
DaemonFCit's all owned by huge conglomeratesSep 09 16:27
DaemonFCall of itSep 09 16:27
schestowitzTHeir crocoddilian part of the brain tells them that it's OK to take orders from leadersSep 09 16:27
schestowitzIt's not thinkingSep 09 16:28
schestowitzIt's following orders to put food in the table. THey pay the price much laterSep 09 16:28
DaemonFCschestowitz: The "local" chain that they drove out was actually taken over by an "asset management firm" in FloridaSep 09 16:28
DaemonFCa few years agoSep 09 16:28
DaemonFCthey used to be based in IndianapolisSep 09 16:28
DaemonFCschestowitz: When a Walmart Supercenter opens, the managers go around town sizing up the competitionSep 09 16:29
DaemonFCand writing a report on how long it will take Walmart to run them out of businessSep 09 16:29
schestowitzOKSep 09 16:29
DaemonFCit's not "if", it's "when"Sep 09 16:29
schestowitzI've just realised that Konvesation doesn't use the KDE spellcheckerSep 09 16:29
schestowitzThis is not goodSep 09 16:30
schestowitztrmanco: am I missing something?Sep 09 16:30
schestowitzDoes Konversation do in-line spellchecking?Sep 09 16:30
DaemonFCschestowitz: There's a policy for management there that's called "Never be beaten" and it means precisely thatSep 09 16:30
schestowitzNew: Obama's offered HOPE is sweatshop slavery < >Sep 09 16:31
*gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 16:31
DaemonFCit means use ANY tactics, even bordering on illegal, to crush the other storesSep 09 16:31
schestowitzWell, that's the Land of the Free (MArket)Sep 09 16:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] 'Lying down' NHS staff suspended - petty or what? 09 16:31
DaemonFCschestowitz: I've helped them run out more than just one competing storeSep 09 16:32
DaemonFCthe one here was a Marsh supermarket, there was also a Scott's in another townSep 09 16:32
schestowitz"Staff at Swindon's Great Western Hospital face possible dismissal after posting online pictures of themselves taking part in the Lying Down Game."Sep 09 16:33
DaemonFCI think I've mentioned before how the price comp thing worksSep 09 16:33
schestowitzI've never come across thisSep 09 16:33
schestowitz 09 16:33
DaemonFCyou scan their items and punch in their price then dock the scanner with the store computer when you get backSep 09 16:33
DaemonFCand it will determine Walmart's new price, which is always about 10% lowerSep 09 16:33
DaemonFCpeople are stupidSep 09 16:33
schestowitzYeah, old trickSep 09 16:33
DaemonFCas long as you can be way cheaper on all the stuff they watch, you're goodSep 09 16:34
DaemonFCbread, milk, eggs, breakfast cereals, canned soups, TV dinnersSep 09 16:34
DaemonFCwhere you work in the profits is in all the stuff where people don't watch the pricesSep 09 16:34
DaemonFCyou can also be considerably more expensive than your competitors in many cases by just making it look like you cut the price to the boneSep 09 16:35
DaemonFClike if Kmart has a widget for $2.99, you can make your widget $3.44Sep 09 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Climate change: melting ice will trigger wave of natural disasters" 09 16:35
DaemonFCyou actually make another 45 cents on each widget, but it registers in people's minds that you have it cheaper because of the oddball price pointSep 09 16:36
DaemonFCanother good one is a loss leader on every aisle endcapSep 09 16:36
DaemonFCa shitty emachine with Vista Basic ought to get them to look for a minute, decide they don't want it, and go down the aisle and end up getting a Dell with Vista Premium for $200-$300 moreSep 09 16:37
schestowitzSri Lanka expels UN official who criticised camps YikesSep 09 16:37
DaemonFCa $30 no-name microwave with no features gets them going down the aisle, and they end up buying the $120 modelSep 09 16:38
schestowitzMicrowaves cause cancerSep 09 16:38
schestowitzANd Microsoft is cancer :-p :-pSep 09 16:38
DaemonFCthe endcaps are where all the ridiculously impossible generic cheap shit goesSep 09 16:38
DaemonFCit's not where you make your money, you're just setting them up to figure every item in the aisle is a good dealSep 09 16:39
schestowitz"Jacky Rowland was reporting Friday from the West Bank village of Bil'in, explaining to viewers about the separation fence and the weekly protests that take place there, when Israeli troops began firing tear gas at the protesters and then directly at her. " 09 16:40
schestowitzTake more babies away from bad parents, says Barnardo's chief < > There's hope for the kids at the Ballmer householdSep 09 16:40
schestowitz"My children - in many dimensions they're as poorly behaved as many other children, but at least on this dimension I've got my kids brainwashed: You don't use Google, and you don't use an iPod." --stevebSep 09 16:40
DaemonFCI always set it up like that then plays around with the layout til I figured out where most people ended up throwing something in the cartSep 09 16:41
DaemonFCthen I'd put whatever had the highest profit margin at that pointSep 09 16:41
DaemonFC*playedSep 09 16:41
DaemonFCthe XBOX 360 is not doing well, I can tell that just by where they gave Microsoft their shelf spaceSep 09 16:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Brown -- like Obama -- defends banksters' 'right' to use taxpayers' money for bonuses. 09 16:42
schestowitzFormer president of Brazil says hardline war on drugs 'has failed' < > I never did drugs, so.....Sep 09 16:42
DaemonFCat least at the local store it looks like the PS3 is selling the bestSep 09 16:43
DaemonFCfollowed by the WiiSep 09 16:43
DaemonFCthen the PS2Sep 09 16:43
DaemonFCthen the 360Sep 09 16:43
schestowitz360 does OK in the USSep 09 16:43
schestowitzHome turfSep 09 16:43
schestowitzAnd the US press cites though numbersSep 09 16:43
DaemonFCit's not doing wellSep 09 16:43
schestowitzIt's embarassing outside the USSep 09 16:43
schestowitzSame with many fuiguresSep 09 16:43
DaemonFCthey're jsut not doing as poorly here as in most placesSep 09 16:44
schestowitzPretent US consumer is 'the WORLD'Sep 09 16:44
schestowitz*pretendSep 09 16:44
schestowitzDamn.Sep 09 16:44
schestowitzI need a spellchecker in this thingSep 09 16:44
DaemonFCthey're actually doing better in CanadaSep 09 16:44
DaemonFCconsidering the size of the market thereSep 09 16:44
DaemonFCschestowitz: The Zune was always the butt of all my jokes while I worked thereSep 09 16:45
schestowitz 09 16:45
schestowitzZune was taken off shelvesSep 09 16:45
schestowitzNot by consumersSep 09 16:45
DaemonFCI kept telling people that the punishment on my watch was having to dust the Zune caseSep 09 16:45
schestowitzBack to the warehouseSep 09 16:45
schestowitzOverstockedSep 09 16:45
DaemonFCB-)Sep 09 16:45
schestowitzMaybe it sold well..... on CLEARANCESep 09 16:45
DaemonFCschestowitz: I don't even want one on CLEARANCESep 09 16:46
schestowitzLOL @ "I kept telling people that the punishment on my watch was having to dust the Zune case"Sep 09 16:46
DaemonFCI had the chance to get a 4 gig model Zune for $50 or a 4 gig Sansa Fuze for $40Sep 09 16:46
DaemonFCthe Fuze actually not only plays FLAC and Vorbis in addition to all the formats Zune supports, but it has an expansion slotSep 09 16:46
DaemonFCfor Micro SD cardsSep 09 16:47
schestowitzAh!!!!!!!!!1Sep 09 16:47
schestowitzGot itSep 09 16:47
schestowitz "Right click the text input line and select Auto Spell Check. "Sep 09 16:47
schestowitzSpellcheck's in da house!Sep 09 16:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Free Ad Space | The Digital Prism - Terms & Conditions apply 09 16:47
schestowitzZune might be disconteinued altogetherSep 09 16:47
schestowitzThe team is jumping ship, stillSep 09 16:47
schestowitzIt has no distinguihserSep 09 16:48
schestowitzExcept "squirting" maybeSep 09 16:48
DaemonFCschestowitz: I got to try one out before they launchedSep 09 16:48
DaemonFCit took me about 2 minutes to tell for sure I hated itSep 09 16:48
*wallclimber ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 16:48
*ThistleWeb ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 16:48
schestowitzHD stands for hardly deadSep 09 16:49
schestowitzJust. ALmost. There. Now.Sep 09 16:49
DaemonFCthe first model was just a rebranded Toshiba Gigabeat SSep 09 16:49
DaemonFCwith added wifiSep 09 16:49
wallclimberHi!Sep 09 16:49
ThistleWebschestowitz: we in Monty Python mode? "I'm not dead" "Yes you are" "I feel better" "You're not fooling anyone you know"Sep 09 16:49
wallclimberI just left a comment on the Gartner article...i replied to another comment by "glen"Sep 09 16:49
ThistleWebhey all btwSep 09 16:50
schestowitzHey, ThistleWeb, wallclimberSep 09 16:50
wallclimber:)Sep 09 16:50
schestowitzDaemonFC: yes, it was a tosh wince pdaSep 09 16:50
schestowitzBAr the featuresSep 09 16:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb : how about BN ads (or just link)? ;-)Sep 09 16:50
schestowitzLike Web browsing for the wifiSep 09 16:50
DaemonFCMe at the meeting on Christmas Eve: "OK, you've all heard about Charlie Brown and the little Christmas Tree nobody loved. Go con your relatives into buying a Zune or something"Sep 09 16:50
DaemonFCheheSep 09 16:50
schestowitzwallclimber: almost caught up now, can do next Comes exhibitSep 09 16:51
DaemonFCschestowitz: Mandriva has Wine 1.1.29 with their Pulseaudio driver included nowSep 09 16:52
DaemonFCmeans no more funky audio cutoutsSep 09 16:52
DaemonFC:DSep 09 16:52
DaemonFCif you use the RPM bundles from WineHQ you lose the Pulseaudio driverSep 09 16:52
schestowitz"glen" created an account just to say "bye"Sep 09 16:52
ThistleWebschestowitz: you want included in the free ad thing?Sep 09 16:52
DaemonFCI have no idea why they don't make that thing officially a part of WineSep 09 16:52
wallclimberwhich one?  I let everyone work from home today, needed a quiet workday here.  So if it's not a lot of pages I can do it nowSep 09 16:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: no audio issues hereSep 09 16:53
DaemonFCit solves practically every Wine/Pulseaudio pain in the ass you can run intoSep 09 16:53
schestowitzNone so farSep 09 16:53
schestowitzNo downtimes since I set up this machine, eitherSep 09 16:53
DaemonFCschestowitz: I Suseified my MandrivaSep 09 16:53
DaemonFC:PSep 09 16:53
schestowitzThistleWeb: sure, if you can. BN does no blogroll, never did sadly..Sep 09 16:53
ThistleWebI think I may need a script or plugin to rotate these automaticallySep 09 16:53
ThistleWebmy offer requires nothing in return, it's fineSep 09 16:54
schestowitzDaemonFC: SUSE=SLAB?Sep 09 16:54
schestowitzMono?Sep 09 16:54
ThistleWebin fact I'll put you on the blogrollSep 09 16:54
schestowitzThistleWeb: I have an image revolverSep 09 16:54
schestowitzHold ob.Sep 09 16:54
schestowitz*onSep 09 16:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: YesSep 09 16:54
schestowitzIs PHP goodSep 09 16:54
schestowitz?Sep 09 16:54
DaemonFCI like the SLAB menuSep 09 16:54
ThistleWebthat'd be betterSep 09 16:54
schestowitzIt'ds a script you put in a folder with the images to cycle throughSep 09 16:55
ThistleWebdoes it change the links too?Sep 09 16:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: You have to revert to the normal GNOME menus from the Mandriva Control CenterSep 09 16:55
DaemonFCelse the Application Browser sorts everything wrongSep 09 16:56
schestowitzThistleWeb: 09 16:56
schestowitzI've used it since 2005Sep 09 16:56
DaemonFCschestowitz: Tomboy is not part of the default setupSep 09 16:56
DaemonFCMono and Beagle are still hereSep 09 16:56
DaemonFCGnote is in the repositorySep 09 16:57
schestowitzThistleWeb: ah, links might be trickySep 09 16:57
DaemonFCI wonder if Mandriva is getting ready to part ways with MonoSep 09 16:57
schestowitzMaybeSep 09 16:57
schestowitzIt's not leaving kdeSep 09 16:57
schestowitzNot as KDE4 matures wellSep 09 16:57
schestowitzIt could soon refocus on kdeSep 09 16:58
schestowitzSeems like kde 4.0 had them explore more of the gnome optionSep 09 16:58
DaemonFCI replaced the Desktop Search backend with TrackerSep 09 16:58
DaemonFCTracker does as good a job as Beagle with half the RAM useSep 09 16:58
schestowitzhistorically, like SUSE, it's a kde distroSep 09 16:58
trmancoso much for mono being slimSep 09 16:58
schestowitzGNOME is more liked by the Spanish crowd, I thinkSep 09 16:59
schestowitzMaybe related to some other factorsSep 09 16:59
schestowitzBut Brazil schools chose kdeSep 09 16:59
trmancobecause it was initially baked by a mexican?Sep 09 16:59
schestowitzThey'll have good times wit kde4Sep 09 16:59
DaemonFCtrmanco: The whole idea about Mono saving space is that the runtime handles a lot of things so the applications can theoretically be a bit smallerSep 09 16:59
schestowitztrmanco: likely soSep 09 16:59
DaemonFCthey still balloon in RAM usage when you load them thoughSep 09 16:59
schestowitzMany gnome devs have spanish nameSep 09 16:59
trmanco"theoretically"Sep 09 16:59
schestowitzKDE is Germany-basedSep 09 16:59
schestowitzKuegler et alSep 09 17:00
trmancoyesSep 09 17:00
ThistleWeblooking for wp ad plugins and found this one >> 09 17:00
DaemonFCso you may save a few megs hard disk space but use 50 megs more RAM when you load the applicationSep 09 17:00
schestowitzMono is MassachusettsSep 09 17:00
schestowitzMade by two Microsoft folksSep 09 17:00
schestowitzNat and MigSep 09 17:00
trmancoDaemonFC: you said "theoretically"Sep 09 17:00
DaemonFCwell yeahSep 09 17:00
DaemonFCwell, Mono applications are every bit as bad as .Net on WindowsSep 09 17:01
trmancothat's what they usually sauSep 09 17:01
trmancosay*Sep 09 17:01
DaemonFCI tried using CDBurnerXP on Windows and it ate all my RAM and crashed VistaSep 09 17:01
DaemonFCruined the DVD I was trying to burnSep 09 17:02
trmancoLOLSep 09 17:02
trmancoI've used that app before with no problems, when I used windowsSep 09 17:02
DaemonFCit works better on XPSep 09 17:02
DaemonFCmuch betterSep 09 17:03
schestowitzLOLSep 09 17:03
schestowitzI never though about crashes while burningSep 09 17:03
schestowitzMy OS never crashes actuallySep 09 17:03
DaemonFCI've never seen a disc burning program eat 3.5 GB of RAM, attack the swap file, and freeze the machine beforeSep 09 17:03
DaemonFCfirst time for everything I guessSep 09 17:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Republican caught out having *heterosexual* intercourse 09 17:03
schestowitz 3.5 GB of RAM is OK for average Vista 7 dabblerSep 09 17:04
Diablo-D3thats news alrightSep 09 17:04
schestowitzPeople who test the thing are computer enthusiasts who love MicrosoftSep 09 17:04
*schestowitz watches the videoSep 09 17:05
ThistleWebschestowitz: that datafeedr plugin looks great, I can set up groups etc and it rotates them for meSep 09 17:05
trmanco"Buying a new Windows, why not get a new computer with that?"Sep 09 17:05
schestowitzThistleWeb: there are also hypermark revolversSep 09 17:06
schestowitzI use oneSep 09 17:06
schestowitzFor quotes that changeSep 09 17:06
ThistleWebyeah I thought about that before. I may still use that. I love quotes from peeps like Douglas Adams and Terry PratchettSep 09 17:07
schestowitzHaha. Great video. Owned. Career ruined.Sep 09 17:07
DaemonFCschestowitz: I could just never really get used to KDE 4, I know it's supposed to be more Windows-like, that's debatableSep 09 17:11
DaemonFCI've always jsut found myself going back to GNOMESep 09 17:11
DaemonFCI think the debate is mostly academic except for a point here or thereSep 09 17:12
schestowitzKDE4 is like KDE3, betterSep 09 17:12
schestowitzMore features, some features missing, everything working better overallSep 09 17:12
DaemonFCschestowitz: The last time I was using KDE regularly it was like 2.xSep 09 17:13
DaemonFCGNOME was unthinkableSep 09 17:13
schestowitzThe architecture underneath is improved, so it's better with RAM and CPU (I feel so) and it's more reliable (again, for me anyway)Sep 09 17:13
DaemonFCGNOME was still on 1.4 at the time according to WikipediaSep 09 17:14
DaemonFCwhich is about where I remembered itSep 09 17:14
DaemonFCif you think GNOME is inconsistent now, you should have seen 1.xSep 09 17:14
DaemonFCno two applications looked or worked remotely the sameSep 09 17:14
DaemonFCit was one giant free for allSep 09 17:14
schestowitz Websites 'breaking consumer laws' < >Sep 09 17:14
DaemonFCI installed GNOME as part of Red Hat Linux because I had no idea what I was doingSep 09 17:15
DaemonFCno such thing as a Live CD or "sane defaults" back then so I ended up installing every desktop it had and trying them allSep 09 17:16
schestowitz"Go !FSF! Thanks for protecting GFDL licensed works! !CC, why aren't you filing suits like this?" 09 17:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear BBC. Please get tech journos with more clue. is embarassing to watch. You're perpetuating nonsense. No love, Al.Sep 09 17:19
schestowitzHehe.Sep 09 17:20
schestowitz:"Windows Windows Windows ..." --BBC/BallmerSep 09 17:20
schestowitzBillBallmerCorporationSep 09 17:21
DaemonFChmmm, the SecuROM crap is back for some reason using Mandriva's build of WineSep 09 17:22
DaemonFCshould I file a bug on this?Sep 09 17:22
DaemonFCI think I willSep 09 17:23
schestowitz 09 17:26
schestowitz <-- Blender 3D Design, Spring 2008Sep 09 17:28
schestowitzwallclimber: do you do rendering?Sep 09 17:28
wallclimberit depends on what needs rendering...tell me what you needSep 09 17:29
schestowitzI was just asking cause of BlenderSep 09 17:31
schestowitz3-D rendering is funSep 09 17:31
schestowitz 09 17:31
wallclimberahhh, 3-D rendering.  No, I can draw most anything with a pen and some paper, and do pretty well with vector art, but i'm an illustrator for print, mostly.  I've only played around a bit with Maya and blender and some others I've forgotten.Sep 09 17:33
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wallclimberif i were younger i think i'd have been VERY interested in learning 3-d  - and i love good animation, but i've been an illustrator for about 40 years now (give or take) so i'm probably never going to do much 3-d...but you never knowSep 09 17:35
wallclimberto be honest, blender is a little intimidating...and you know how old people are, they hate to learn new stuff  lolSep 09 17:35
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schestowitzHeh. 09 17:37
schestowitzJust seen the above... a moment agoSep 09 17:37
wallclimber(reading it now)Sep 09 17:38
schestowitz"That’s a huge savings compared to the $200,000+ an MIT-level education would cost today (remember the MIT online degree — there is one — costs the same as if you were attending in Cambridge)."Sep 09 17:38
schestowitzHigh education = a system for ensuring the rich stays richSep 09 17:38
schestowitzCambridge even offers favouritism to kids of Cambridge elumniSep 09 17:39
schestowitzAlumniSep 09 17:39
schestowitzA well known factSep 09 17:39
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 17:39
schestowitzSelling certificates to block equalitySep 09 17:39
schestowitzVery corrupt, yet unquestionable system for the most partSep 09 17:39
schestowitzLike the USPTO, it should be susceptible to a lot more criticismSep 09 17:40
schestowitzUS health care system is still a fiasco, tooSep 09 17:40
schestowitzBig Pharmas......Sep 09 17:40
schestowitzWHere to begin...?Sep 09 17:40
*jono has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 17:40
schestowitz "Lehman Brothers would still be in business, Bear Stearns, too.  Merrill Lynch would be independent. AIG would not have failed. Even Bernie Madoff would probably still be in business — at least for awhile."Sep 09 17:41
schestowitzI like his writings..Sep 09 17:41
schestowitz"There are 51 million mortgages in America and the average mortgage payment in 2006 was $1686, so paying everyone’s mortgage for six months would have cost $516 billion — hundreds of billions less than the Bush/Paulson/Obama/Geithner/Bernanke plan, and quicker, too."Sep 09 17:41
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DaemonFChehSep 09 17:42
DaemonFCfound the problemSep 09 17:42
DaemonFCWine in Mandriva doesn't attach a Windows drive letter to your disc driveSep 09 17:42
schestowitz"When the “unsinkable” ship Titanic hit an iceberg and sank on its maiden voyage in 1911, as any teenage girl will tell you, the rich people got nearly all the lifeboats (except for John Jacob Astor IV who ordered another drink, giving up his seat), dooming the lower-class passengers including, of course, poor Leonardo DiCaprio."Sep 09 17:42
DaemonFCso I made my DVD drive F:\ in WineSep 09 17:42
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 17:42
DaemonFChey, if it's happy, I'm happySep 09 17:43
schestowitz"Much the same thing seems to be happening in the case of the current economic crisis, where the people who are hurting the most seem to be getting the least.  I’m beginning to believe the crisis could have been fixed quicker and cheaper simply by helping the women and children instead of the bankers."Sep 09 17:43
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wallclimberyes, they helped the bankers, then rearranged some deck shairs...the band is now playing "Nearer My God To Thee" waiting for the fishies to surround themSep 09 17:45
wallclimberglug glug glugSep 09 17:46
wallclimber*chairs*Sep 09 17:46
schestowitzChip Maker VIA joins the Linux Foundation < >Sep 09 17:47
wallclimberhowever, as Rhett Butler once told Scarlett, there's more money to be made in the destruction of a civilization than in the building of one...we'll seeSep 09 17:47
wallclimberLife does seem to go on, no matter what...Sep 09 17:48
schestowitzwallclimber: I don't know if the rumours are true about eugenicsSep 09 17:49
DaemonFChmmmSep 09 17:49
schestowitzwallclimber: not for everyone.. ("Life does seem to go on, no matter what..."). See what happens in most of the world('s population)Sep 09 17:49
DaemonFCpackages are hitting Cooker faster than they hit Ubuntu's development branchSep 09 17:49
DaemonFCthat update manager alerts me about every hour, heheSep 09 17:49
schestowitzIn Afghanistan just now, innocent civilians had planes from the sky fry themSep 09 17:50
schestowitz70 deaths of innocent people. Little "oops" on the radar... now, if that happened in US soil, you'd hear about itSep 09 17:50
schestowitz*onSep 09 17:50
DaemonFCaccording to the Taliban and the Taliban news agency?Sep 09 17:51
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 17:51
schestowitzNopeSep 09 17:51
wallclimberwell, it was meant in a general sense...even the worst most inhumane events in history didn't manage to stop humanity from continuing.Sep 09 17:51
schestowitz "German foreign minister calls attack 'necessary' as US commanders criticise ordering mission that left 70 civilians dead"Sep 09 17:52
DaemonFCnext best thingSep 09 17:52
schestowitzwallclimber: history of human kind is shortSep 09 17:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Watching Wendy Seltzer's SELF talk on CopyrightSep 09 17:52
schestowitzLess than 200,000 years some saySep 09 17:52
schestowitzThat's nothingSep 09 17:53
schestowitzAnd look how fast we ruined so much in one century (20th)Sep 09 17:53
schestowitzWhaling, deforestation, extinctions, satellite garbage, water pollution, lack of fossil fuel soonSep 09 17:54
wallclimberit isn't good to be glib and dismissive of humanity's self-destructive tendencies, but it's also self-defeating to give into them.  Fear freezes people's hearts, and they can't function when they give into fear.  that's all i'm saying.  no matter what happens, we have to retain our ability to live and deal with whatever life throws our direction.Sep 09 17:54
schestowitzBut this justifies ignoring climate changeSep 09 17:55
schestowitzAs in, "let our kids figure out a way out of this mess we cause"Sep 09 17:55
schestowitzI don't have kids and grandkids yet, but when I do, then these questions will bother me moreSep 09 17:55
schestowitzI see what friends who are older are sayingSep 09 17:55
schestowitzSome just don't want to talk about it because it depresses themSep 09 17:56
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'll let your kids figure it out as they choke to death on the polluted smoking shell this generation leaves behindSep 09 17:56
schestowitzIt's serious stuff, ryanSep 09 17:56
schestowitzYou guys in Wal-martown don't mind muchSep 09 17:57
schestowitzSell, sell, sell, win, win, winSep 09 17:57
DaemonFChas nothing to do with WalmartSep 09 17:57
schestowitzBut it's an innate thingsSep 09 17:57
schestowitzThere will be destruction not due to economics, which are man-madeSep 09 17:57
schestowitznAtural reosuces like air are what really should have monetary valueSep 09 17:58
schestowitzJust not yetSep 09 17:58
DaemonFCI don't care because there's nothing I can do about it and even if I could, I won't live to see itSep 09 17:58
schestowitzCause it's abundantSep 09 17:58
schestowitzIf you had lived in Mars where oxygen is 50 times thinner, then you'd sell air tooSep 09 17:58
wallclimberyes, those things will certainly be part of the challenges our young generations must face.  the best we can do is teach them how to problem-solve, and how to survive in difficult times.  i think what gets forgotten is how many times people have risen to the tasks at hand, in very heroic ways.  i haven't had an easy life, but i've survived it with a sense of pride in my ability to survive.Sep 09 17:58
schestowitzOr 'import' itSep 09 17:58
schestowitzOr manufactuire some with plantsSep 09 17:58
schestowitzWe're not suitable for life elsewhereSep 09 17:59
schestowitzIt's a pipedreamSep 09 17:59
schestowitzEven Hawkins talks about itSep 09 17:59
schestowitzCause he understands the inevitabilitySep 09 17:59
DaemonFCyeah, if climate change could be bombed and was going to wipe us out in 10 years instead of 100Sep 09 17:59
DaemonFCwe'd have the problem solved overnightSep 09 17:59
schestowitzEven the DNA with millions of 'bits' don't have anything to prevent itSep 09 17:59
schestowitzLet alone the 3 'layers' in the brain.Sep 09 17:59
schestowitzIt's doomed to inflate and then lead to deflationSep 09 18:00
schestowitzLike many animalsSep 09 18:00
DaemonFCschestowitz: What's the difference anyway?Sep 09 18:00
schestowitz99% of the Earth's creatures are extinctSep 09 18:00
schestowitzDaemonFC: not for usSep 09 18:00
DaemonFCwould you rather it be an asteroid or the sun growing hotter and hotter and boiling away the oceans and burning the atmosphere?Sep 09 18:00
DaemonFCeverything on this planet will be dead eventuallySep 09 18:01
DaemonFCwiped outSep 09 18:01
schestowitzSun is not an issueSep 09 18:01
DaemonFCwhether we do it or a natural disaster does itSep 09 18:01
schestowitzIt has billions of years to still burn gasesSep 09 18:01
DaemonFCyeah, but Earth wouldn't have that longSep 09 18:01
schestowitzAsteroids are rareSep 09 18:01
schestowitzComets are frequentSep 09 18:01
DaemonFCthe sun would growing hotter as it ages, right?Sep 09 18:01
schestowitzOne in the early 1900s for instanceSep 09 18:02
schestowitzDon't think siSep 09 18:02
schestowitz*soSep 09 18:02
schestowitzBut the atmosphere grows thinnerSep 09 18:02
schestowitzAnd Venus serves as a lesson of what it entailsSep 09 18:02
schestowitzOr was it Mercury?Sep 09 18:02
DaemonFCthe Earth has another billion years under ideal conditions before it can't even support bacteria anymoreSep 09 18:02
schestowitzBillion is lots of timeSep 09 18:03
DaemonFCthat's if nothing happens between now and thenSep 09 18:03
schestowitzEven a million is a lotSep 09 18:03
wallclimberbut i'll bet the cockroaches will live onSep 09 18:03
wallclimber:)Sep 09 18:03
schestowitzwallclimber: that always doSep 09 18:03
schestowitzLike SCOSep 09 18:03
DaemonFCstatistically there will be another asteroid like the one that killed the dinosaurs several more times between then and nowSep 09 18:03
schestowitzIt's like the movie plot. Cockroches and McBrides are eternally aliveSep 09 18:03
DaemonFCor biggerSep 09 18:04
schestowitz /s/that /they/Sep 09 18:04
DaemonFC*now and thenSep 09 18:04
schestowitzDaemonFC: waitSep 09 18:04
schestowitzDinosaus were not killed this way. It's just a theorySep 09 18:04
wallclimbernot to change the subject (doom and gloom is always quite fascinating), but i can do a comes doc now if you want...which one?Sep 09 18:04
DaemonFChumans don't have long left anywaySep 09 18:04
zlgmars used to have an atmosphere and liquid water on it's surface, but runaway greenhouse, and ozone stripping destroyed it's "environment".Sep 09 18:04
schestowitzOne among severalSep 09 18:04
DaemonFCevolution would have to start againSep 09 18:04
DaemonFCfrom small mammals or whatever happens to surviveSep 09 18:05
DaemonFCif anythingSep 09 18:05
schestowitzThanks, mutexSep 09 18:05
schestowitzI guess.Sep 09 18:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: The Earth is one giant temp agencySep 09 18:05
schestowitzwallclimber: see 09 18:05
DaemonFCinhabited by whatever is living on it at the momentSep 09 18:06
wallclimberDaemon, that's pricelessSep 09 18:06
schestowitz“Linux is a cult that captures the best-and-brightest kids.”Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz–Jim Gray (Microsoft Research)Sep 09 18:06
schestowitzNathan Myhrvold (CTO)Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    The pragmatic answer is that much of the “trend” towards free software is very likely due to the novelty of the Internet.Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    [...]Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    Although many people claim that Linux is growing, my bet is that if you subtract out web servers and related new niches, the growth is much more modest.Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    [...]Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    If nobody can beat Linux and Apache with commercial products, then shame on all of us in the industry!Sep 09 18:06
wallclimberOkay, will get 'er doneSep 09 18:06
schestowitz    [...]Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    In [a world where the operating system is much cheaper] you could postulate some sort of socialist ideal where the OS is some Linux like public domain thing.Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    [...]Sep 09 18:06
schestowitz    So, [a world where the operating system is much cheaper] is a nightmare. The system software industry is sucked dry, undermining the foundations of computing. It surely is not an idyllic vision of the future. [...] Only some draconian force – such a misguided government – would put the industry in this sad situation.Sep 09 18:06
schestowitzyou can reuse the text aboveSep 09 18:06
wallclimberback in a bit...Sep 09 18:07
schestowitzThanks a lot!Sep 09 18:07
DaemonFCtime to find my no dvd crack for OblivionSep 09 18:07
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 18:07
MinceRlolSep 09 18:07
MinceRthe internet is so newSep 09 18:07
wallclimberha!  I didn't realize it before now, but today is 09-09-09... (ok, it's true, i'm easily entertained by trivial things :)Sep 09 18:10
schestowitzMono-nono site seems to have gone to sleepSep 09 18:10
schestowitzwallclimber: yeah, I thought about it the other daySep 09 18:10
schestowitzHe's to 10-10-10Sep 09 18:10
MinceRthere was also 09-09-09 09:09:09Sep 09 18:10
schestowitzIn 1 year, one month and 1 day from nowSep 09 18:11
wallclimberI think that was just a platform for jo shields to make points on...Sep 09 18:11
schestowitzwallclimber: damn, I missed itSep 09 18:11
wallclimber(meaning mononono)Sep 09 18:11
schestowitz[boycottn@boycottnovell ~]$ uname -aSep 09 18:11
schestowitzLinux 2.6.18-128.1.10.el5xen #1 SMP Thu May 7 11:07:18 EDT 2009 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/LinuxSep 09 18:11
schestowitz[boycottn@boycottnovell ~]$ dateSep 09 18:11
schestowitzWed Sep  9 09:20:02 PDT 2009Sep 09 18:11
schestowitz[boycottn@boycottnovell ~]$Sep 09 18:11
schestowitz11 minutes ago in San DiegoSep 09 18:11
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Just printed to the HP 6310 from iPhoto on the Mac and F-Spot on Ubuntu. Remarkably similar experience. All worked no issues.Sep 09 18:27
schestowitz 09 18:32
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_Hicham_Hi All!Sep 09 18:47
_Hicham_DaemonFC : u don't sleep at all ?Sep 09 18:47
MinceRthe devil never sleepsSep 09 18:49
_Hicham_hi twitter !Sep 09 18:50
schestowitzHey, _Hicham_Sep 09 18:52
schestowitzwallclimber: used this? 09 18:55
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Sep 9 18:57:16 2009
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 9 18:57:16 2009
schestowitz releasedSep 09 18:59
DaemonFC_Hicham_: What he saidSep 09 18:59
DaemonFC:)Sep 09 18:59
trmancohehSep 09 19:00
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did u take ur pill ?Sep 09 19:01
_Hicham_schestowitz : did u see the trolling session of DaemonFC after u left ?Sep 09 19:03
schestowitzoldie: Banks Eye Linux From Sidelines < >Sep 09 19:04
schestowitz_Hicham_: I took a glimpseSep 09 19:05
schestowitzDid he cr*pflood well?Sep 09 19:05
_Hicham_schestowitz : no, repetitive as alwaysSep 09 19:06
_Hicham_nothing newSep 09 19:06
_Hicham_he is just a parrotSep 09 19:07
_Hicham_the same oldiesSep 09 19:07
_Hicham_I told him to go take his pills, but he was already deep in his hallucinationsSep 09 19:08
schestowitz Nice GDM themes for Ubuntu and Gnome (with installation guide ) 09 19:08
schestowitz_Hicham_: At City Hall in Minneapolis , he made the Hall of shame.. the Wanted ListSep 09 19:10
schestowitzHe was banned from Ubuntu Forums :-)Sep 09 19:10
DaemonFCone of me anywaySep 09 19:13
schestowitzJudge Rejects Credit Rating Firms’ Free-Speech Claims 09 19:15
schestowitzMoody's are corrupt, criminal evenSep 09 19:15
schestowitzThey sell recommendationsSep 09 19:15
schestowitz 09 19:16
schestowitz New Asus Color E-Reader Folds Like a BookSep 09 19:18
schestowitzWhy try to emulate antiquated paradigmsSep 09 19:18
schestowitz?Sep 09 19:18
zlgparadigm darwinismSep 09 19:23
_Hicham_schestowitz : did u see this  : ?Sep 09 19:25
tessierschestowitz: Better caching method?Sep 09 19:28
tessierIs that different thatn the current one?Sep 09 19:28
schestowitzYes, it caches queriesSep 09 19:34
schestowitzNot pagsSep 09 19:34
schestowitz*pagesSep 09 19:34
schestowitz_Hicham_: it's one of those trolls whom I think is somehow associated with Mono. Don't feed those stalkers.Sep 09 19:35
trmancoohSep 09 19:35
schestowitztrmanco: no?Sep 09 19:35
trmancoI didn't say anythingSep 09 19:35
trmanco:-PSep 09 19:35
schestowitzBased on what I readSep 09 19:35
trmancoyou are rightSep 09 19:35
_Hicham_wow, he seems to be here all the timeSep 09 19:35
trmancoI wasn't referring to thatSep 09 19:36
schestowitztessier: I'll swap over to it and see how it works after it caches some queriesSep 09 19:36
_Hicham_I am wondering who is this personSep 09 19:36
*schestowitz makes backupsSep 09 19:36
trmancoIt should work betterSep 09 19:36
trmancothen with some gzip mixed into itSep 09 19:37
trmancoit should be perfectSep 09 19:37
schestowitztrmanco: I don't think bandwidth is the issueSep 09 19:37
trmancoah okSep 09 19:37
trmancothen no need for gzip thenSep 09 19:37
schestowitzIt's dynamic page delivery and allSep 09 19:37
tessierAh. Query caching should indeed help.Sep 09 19:37
trmancotessier: there is nothing you can do server side is there?Sep 09 19:38
trmancolike memcached or somethingSep 09 19:39
tessiertrmanco: Query caching is server side.Sep 09 19:40
tessierBut to use memcached would require changes be made to wordpress code. The app has to be written to use it.Sep 09 19:40
tessierThere may be such a plugin for wordpress, I don't know.Sep 09 19:40
trmanco 09 19:41
trmancothis is oldSep 09 19:41
tessierI really don't do wordpress. This is the first time I have encountered it. Nowadays I do mostly django.Sep 09 19:41
trmancoyes, you need a pluginSep 09 19:41
*Balrog has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Sep 09 19:41
tessierI am writing my own blog app (copied from a django book) so that I can redo tracyreed.orgSep 09 19:41
trmancoheh, python :)Sep 09 19:41
tessierI am working on getting plone out of my servers.Sep 09 19:42
_Hicham_migrating to a new CMS ?Sep 09 19:42
tessierI like python so far. There aren't a whole lot of choices really. Ruby or Python are about it.Sep 09 19:42
tessier_Hicham_: Yes.Sep 09 19:42
_Hicham_python is the bestSep 09 19:43
_Hicham_vive pythonSep 09 19:43
tessierI think so too.Sep 09 19:43
tessierRuby isn't bad but it is pretty similar to perl and not different enough from python to make it worth learning over python.Sep 09 19:43
tessierNext will be scheme and then Haskell.Sep 09 19:43
tessierThen I should be pretty well rounded.Sep 09 19:44
tessierWould like to know C better but I just don't have much use for it these days.Sep 09 19:44
trmancolots of stuff is turning to the webSep 09 19:44
_Hicham_python is compactSep 09 19:46
_Hicham_with python we write less and create moreSep 09 19:47
trmancohmmSep 09 19:47
_Hicham_with python, a lot of error detection mechanisms are automatedSep 09 19:47
schestowitztessier: I can't seem to connect wit fish://Sep 09 19:48
schestowitzThough ssh is workingSep 09 19:48
schestowitzCould be be an issue with my client side?Sep 09 19:48
schestowitztrmanco: Ryan's memcache is very oldSep 09 19:49
schestowitzI remember taking about it in the mailing listsSep 09 19:49
schestowitzIt got cannedSep 09 19:49
schestowitzToo many issuesSep 09 19:49
trmancohmmmSep 09 19:49
trmancothen I hope that plugin solves your problemSep 09 19:50
schestowitzfish just uses ssh, right? or scp?Sep 09 19:50
schestowitzAnd scp uses ssh/openssh?Sep 09 19:50
trmancoI don't know what fish isSep 09 19:50
tessierI don't know what fish is eitherSep 09 19:51
schestowitztessier: I've enabled the new pluginSep 09 19:55
schestowitzIt ought to cache db queries it saysSep 09 19:56
schestowitztessier: fish:// in Konqueror uses SCP to display a remote server's account as a filesystem/directortSep 09 19:56
schestowitzSo I can browse the server as though it's a local directory and commit changes to itSep 09 19:57
tessiermysql is still getting pounded. Can you tell if the cache is growing? Or what the hit rate is?Sep 09 19:57
schestowitzI emptied the kde wallet, but still haven't managed to work it oughSep 09 19:57
schestowitztessier: I'm trying to find if there's a front-end panel to thisSep 09 19:57
schestowitzAhSep 09 19:57
schestowitzFound oneSep 09 19:57
schestowitzExpire a cached query after: 5 minsSep 09 19:58
schestowitzI can change thatSep 09 19:58
schestowitzI enabled it just 2 minutes ago BTWSep 09 19:58
schestowitzSO it hasn't had time to cache muchSep 09 19:58
schestowitzOhSep 09 19:58
schestowitzIt wasn't even enabled :-)Sep 09 19:59
schestowitzSwitching it onSep 09 19:59
schestowitzCaching activated. Settings saved.Sep 09 19:59
schestowitzload average: 0.81, 1.31, 1.20Sep 09 20:00
schestowitzSo in about 3 minutes it reaches average load (cache flushed every 5 minutes)Sep 09 20:01
schestowitzPages seem to be loading without an issueSep 09 20:01
schestowitz load average: 0.37, 1.06, 1.12Sep 09 20:02
schestowitz"Compatible up to: 2.7"Sep 09 20:02
schestowitzI wonder if it'll still be maintained in the long run (the plugin)Sep 09 20:02
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tessiermysql still seems pretty busy.Sep 09 20:13
tessierMight want to increase the cache time significantly and see what happens. How large is the cache?Sep 09 20:14
tessierIf it isn't large enough to hit 90% of your queries it will have too much turnover to do any good.Sep 09 20:14
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schestowitztessier: ok, let's try itSep 09 20:17
schestowitztessier: I've increased it from 5 minutes to 20Sep 09 20:19
tessierThe readme that comes with this thing says you can put something in the footer which displays statistics on queries etc.Sep 09 20:20
tessierIf it doesn't have any other way to read out performance info you might want to consider enabling that while you get things tuned up. You could put it in a comment in the page or something so end users don't see it.Sep 09 20:21
schestowitztessier: I could try supercache tooSep 09 20:22
schestowitzI never ran it on the site, but it's installedSep 09 20:22
schestowitztessier:Sep 09 20:23
schestowitz<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 0.904 seconds -->Sep 09 20:23
schestowitz<!-- Cached page served by WP-Cache -->Sep 09 20:23
tessierAren't you already using some other cache thing?Sep 09 20:23
tessier.904 seconds is a long time to serve a page.Sep 09 20:23
schestowitzI can see if there's a way to display moreSep 09 20:23
schestowitzCan I do both? I thought I can, but I fearer a conflictSep 09 20:23
schestowitz*fearedSep 09 20:23
tessierYou should be able to do both. db query caching is separate from page caching. Should be anyway.Sep 09 20:24
tessierNo technical reason why you couldn't do both.Sep 09 20:24
schestowitzLet's try :-)Sep 09 20:24
tessiermemcached /win 2Sep 09 20:24
tessieroopsSep 09 20:24
_Hicham_latest chromium integrates well in gnomeSep 09 20:28
schestowitzI've enabled supercacheSep 09 20:29
twittereverything is easy to "integrate" with free softwareSep 09 20:29
schestowitzIn moderate modeSep 09 20:29
schestowitz"HALF ON Super Cache Disabled, only legacy WP-Cache caching."Sep 09 20:29
schestowitzI can go higherSep 09 20:29
schestowitzIt's still caching inividual pagesSep 09 20:30
schestowitzSo may take a while to reach a point where load can be assessedSep 09 20:30
schestowitzIt doesn't seem to cache yetSep 09 20:31
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schestowitz<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 3.357 seconds -->Sep 09 20:32
schestowitzIt's still just using db-cache on the face of itSep 09 20:32
schestowitzAh!!!!!!1Sep 09 20:33
schestowitzOKSep 09 20:33
schestowitzI have both running nowSep 09 20:33
schestowitzBut only 13 pages cached so far :-)Sep 09 20:33
schestowitzSo expire time of 3600 secondsSep 09 20:33
tessierHow can you tell how many pages are cached?Sep 09 20:33
schestowitzought to save several hundreds of most visited pagesSep 09 20:33
schestowitztessier: there's an interface for me to cahckSep 09 20:34
schestowitzI can also flush itSep 09 20:34
tessiercoolSep 09 20:34
schestowitzSo there's DB cache and also full page cacheSep 09 20:34
schestowitzWhich means WordPress doesn't touch the DBSep 09 20:34
tessierNiceSep 09 20:34
schestowitzDB cache may be good for comments and stuffSep 09 20:34
schestowitzBut let's see how it behaves when cache accumulatesSep 09 20:34
schestowitz30 Cached Pages by supercacheSep 09 20:35
schestowitzI can make it even betterSep 09 20:35
schestowitzWith "Cache and Super Cache enabled"Sep 09 20:35
Diablo-D3yes schestowitz, I told you to use supercache like 3 months agoSep 09 20:36
tessierGood caching will make the site much harder to DoSSep 09 20:36
Diablo-D3which is what I told roy.Sep 09 20:36
Diablo-D3but roy never listens to meSep 09 20:37
schestowitzI could add compressionSep 09 20:37
Diablo-D3my wordpress site survived slashdot frontpage + digg frontpage at the sametimeSep 09 20:37
Diablo-D3via supercacheSep 09 20:37
Diablo-D3a few vistors hits roy's, and it falls overSep 09 20:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: It's her factory. 09 20:38
tessiercompression can help a bit also but not nearly as much as caching. It's still probably worth doing if it is easySep 09 20:38
Diablo-D3compression imo isn't recommended thereSep 09 20:39
Diablo-D3your httpd should be doing it insteadSep 09 20:39
tessierRightSep 09 20:40
tessierThat is what I assumed we were talking aboutSep 09 20:40
tessierDidn't know wp could do thatSep 09 20:40
Balrogdo not compress twice or you will have issuesSep 09 20:41
schestowitzOKSep 09 20:48
schestowitzI'll leave it as it is, but there is room for improvement. Should I carry on?Sep 09 20:49
tessierDoes it give you any cache hit rate info?Sep 09 20:50
tessierOr let you specify the size of the cache?Sep 09 20:50
schestowitzYesSep 09 20:50
schestowitzIt stores page cache for 1 hourSep 09 20:50
schestowitzAnd db cache for 20 minutesSep 09 20:50
tessierIs the cache hit rate increasing?Sep 09 20:50
schestowitzDecreasing, I thinkSep 09 20:50
schestowitzIn the sense that less pages get caches over timesSep 09 20:51
schestowitz*timeSep 09 20:51
tessierThe cache hit rate should be increasing as the cache gets populated.Sep 09 20:51
schestowitzOh, thatSep 09 20:51
schestowitzNo, no visibility on thatSep 09 20:51
tessierThat is the most important thing to know about a cache.Sep 09 20:51
tessierI still see mysql using a ton of cpu time in top. Hard to know if this stuff is helping or not.Sep 09 20:51
schestowitzPage cache is maxed up after 1 hours, but I'll change it to 5 hoursSep 09 20:56
schestowitzChanged to 15000 secondsSep 09 20:57
tessier<!-- Served in 1.225 secs. -->Sep 09 20:59
tessierIt should be more like .1 secsSep 09 20:59
schestowitzI wonder if pages that have not been caches yet slow things downSep 09 21:02
tessierDo you have <? loadstats(); ?> in your page somewhere?Sep 09 21:02
tessierYes, pages not cached yet will slow things down until they are cached.Sep 09 21:02
schestowitzBear in mind I flushed a lot of cache when we started doing this, so basically it's building up againSep 09 21:02
tessierUsually a few pages are hit very frequently so the effect of caching is pretty fastSep 09 21:02
tessier80/20 rule etcSep 09 21:02
schestowitzLet me try  <? loadstats(); ?>Sep 09 21:02
tessierThat might give us some useful infoSep 09 21:03
schestowitzI can't seem to find a place to squeeze it intoSep 09 21:05
tessierJust put it in a comment in the footerSep 09 21:05
schestowitzdb-cache doesn't even echo what the interface implies it ought toSep 09 21:05
schestowitzLike # of queriesSep 09 21:06
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tessierhrmSep 09 21:06
trmancoeverybody is moving to webkit....Sep 09 21:18
schestowitzbrbSep 09 21:18
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 9 21:25:00 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellSep 09 21:25
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]Sep 09 21:25
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009Sep 09 21:25
*schestowitz () has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 21:25
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelSep 09 21:25
*BNc () has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 21:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Urinal protocol vulnerability: 09 21:26
*Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connectSep 09 21:30
*#boycottnovell :[freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. 09 21:30
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzSep 09 21:42
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from twitterSep 09 21:43
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzSep 09 21:43
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schestowitzEU Cracks Down On Misleading Electronics Websites 09 21:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] hmmm, wtf is a DNS Trojan?Sep 09 21:50
*_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@ has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 21:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Já me lembro... move on!Sep 09 21:52
trmancoI forgot about the DNS fiasco a year agoSep 09 21:54
schestowitz "I'm sorry, but with Laura DiDio's record in the SCO farce (google for it or check Groklaw) I would want some additional corroboration to anything she says, even if it's "the sky is blue"."Sep 09 21:54
tessierNice...Sep 09 21:55
schestowitzShe's still doing itSep 09 21:55
schestowitzBN has articles about that as wellSep 09 21:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] The truth about managing geeks: So true! If only more CEO's got it.Sep 09 22:07
schestowitzComments on: Apple yanks C64 emulator from App Store 09 22:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] MSFT's analysis of security: 09 22:16
*trmanco recommends a read on that postSep 09 22:16
schestowitzI'm going to remark on it laterSep 09 22:18
schestowitzIt's the old liesSep 09 22:18
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schestowitzThistleWeb: 09 22:21
schestowitzSeems like Microsoft found a shill in Tesco, againSep 09 22:21
schestowitz"SOFTWARE ALCHEMIST Microsoft has admitted that its Vista operating systems is shipping with a bug that was first discovered in Windows machines in 1999." 09 22:21
*magentar ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 22:22
_Hicham_extensions are working in chromiumSep 09 22:22
trmancoyesSep 09 22:24
trmancolong timeSep 09 22:24
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_Hicham__trmanco : did u install adsweep on chromium ?Sep 09 22:28
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ThistleWebschestowitz: yep more attempts at pushing silverlightSep 09 22:29
_Hicham__I am adopting silverlightSep 09 22:29
ThistleWebdoesn't it have parents?Sep 09 22:29
trmanconopSep 09 22:29
schestowitzHeh. Watch this headline. That's my line !! :-) 09 22:29
_Hicham__trmanco : how do u know that extensions are working then ?Sep 09 22:30
trmancobefore I moved to kde, I use to have daily buildsSep 09 22:30
trmancoand extensions were already workingSep 09 22:30
_Hicham__what extensions did u use ?Sep 09 22:30
trmancothe greader  one and the gmail oneSep 09 22:31
trmancoand flash (if that counts)Sep 09 22:31
_Hicham__I just had a system freeze with chromiumSep 09 22:31
_Hicham__probably it was accessing a shared memory segmentSep 09 22:31
_Hicham__that is what selinux is forSep 09 22:31
_Hicham__too bad i am disabling selinuxSep 09 22:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Well, Scotland won't be in South Africa next summer :(, the axe has finally dropped. Cant say it was a surpriseSep 09 22:32
_Hicham__I see the problem as webkitgtk not being mature enoughSep 09 22:33
schestowitzGoogle's Chromium sandbox 09 22:33
_Hicham__probably chromium's extensions are gonna be more buggy than firefox' onesSep 09 22:34
_Hicham__it is very clearSep 09 22:34
_Hicham__at least with firefox i ve never had a system freezeSep 09 22:35
schestowitz "The BBC has a video demonstration of a 16-ounce bottle of liquid blowing a hole in the side of a plane."Sep 09 22:35
schestowitzMadness.Sep 09 22:35
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Sep 09 22:36
schestowitz [img]Sep 09 22:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft Foes Aim to Snatch Patent Advantage in Linux Tussle: 09 22:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @pvilela: Venham os outros @ANSOL: #MEP o 1º partido a rsp às perguntas da ANSOL aos candidatos 09 22:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco don't get excited. OIN only legitimises software patents.Sep 09 22:39
tessierIs that 16oz of liquid nitroglycerin?Sep 09 22:42
tessierLiquid explosives is nothing new.Sep 09 22:42
schestowitztrmanco:  Creating a Chrome Extension < > But help Firefox, don't be a vassal to Google.Sep 09 22:43
schestowitztessier: I sometimes wonder why all shops here keep certain chemicals behind the counterSep 09 22:44
schestowitzDeveloping with real-time Java, Part 1: Exploit real-time Java's unique features 09 22:45
schestowitztessier: there are now 700 pages cached and DB-cache on topSep 09 22:45
schestowitzload average: 0.61, 1.75, 1.58Sep 09 22:45
*_Hicham__ is now known as _Hicham_Sep 09 22:52
schestowitzAnother defeatist... Ha! 09 22:54
schestowitzHe was never a fan anywaySep 09 22:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Republican in "heterosexual" sex scandal 09 22:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft helps Best Buy employees troll Mac users, too: || What next? FreeBSD or Amiga?Sep 09 22:57
schestowitzHow to build a Twitter extension for Chrome < >Sep 09 22:57
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 22:57
_Hicham_our twitter should build that extensionSep 09 22:58
trmancoschestowitz: it worked?Sep 09 22:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme STATS: Average Twitter User Is a Teenage Girl 09 23:00
schestowitzDell renews Ubuntu Linux desktop line up 09 23:01
*magentar ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 23:01
schestowitztrmanco: what did?Sep 09 23:02
Diablo-D3holy crapSep 09 23:02
schestowitzTwitter for oldies... "you make me feel so young:Sep 09 23:02
trmancoschestowitz: the db-cache pluginSep 09 23:02
Diablo-D32.6.31-rc9 /w bfs210-test4Sep 09 23:02
Diablo-D3isSep 09 23:02
Diablo-D3soSep 09 23:02
Diablo-D3verySep 09 23:02
Diablo-D3fastSep 09 23:02
schestowitztrmanco: load average: 0.68, 0.75, 1.10Sep 09 23:04
zlgwhy do you think there is a spike on every decade ? and on your 21 year ?Sep 09 23:04
schestowitzI'm running two cache layers in a way nowSep 09 23:04
schestowitzI can improve it furtherSep 09 23:04
schestowitzDiablo-D3: it IS!Sep 09 23:05
schestowitzDiablo-D3: boots like a thunderSep 09 23:05
schestowitzAnd the desktop just feels goodSep 09 23:05
Diablo-D3screw that dudeSep 09 23:05
Diablo-D3firefox boots like thunderSep 09 23:05
schestowitzI'm on alpha8Sep 09 23:05
schestowitzrc8 i meanSep 09 23:05
Diablo-D3I have like 150 tabs across 15 windowsSep 09 23:05
Diablo-D3and FFFFFFFFFFFFF its doneSep 09 23:05
schestowitzThat's a lot of cartoons !!Sep 09 23:06
Diablo-D3hah funnySep 09 23:07
Diablo-D3no, its lots and lots of docsSep 09 23:08
schestowitzNew FF releasedSep 09 23:09
schestowitz3.5.3Sep 09 23:09
schestowitzMaybe I give kde too much credit from improvement that comes from linux with ext4Sep 09 23:09
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Diablo-D3ext4 is really damned fast on stupidly written appsSep 09 23:10
Diablo-D3Im not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thingSep 09 23:10
schestowitzStay safe when using a Linux PC 09 23:11
MinceRi wouldn't call data loss an "improvement"Sep 09 23:11
schestowitzGet a linux AVSep 09 23:11
schestowitzMinceR: it's fixedSep 09 23:12
schestowitzThat was before finalSep 09 23:12
MinceRwell, there's an extra hack to make things a little less broken, afaikSep 09 23:12
schestowitzext4 has been there in stable since .30, no?Sep 09 23:12
schestowitzMac OS crap has the same type of thingSep 09 23:12
schestowitzMassive data loss bugSep 09 23:12
schestowitzIn Leopard IIRCSep 09 23:12
schestowitzCirca 2007Sep 09 23:12
schestowitzOpera 10 tops 10 million downloads 09 23:13
schestowitzimpressiveSep 09 23:13
schestowitz20 most bizarre Craigslist adverts of all time < >Sep 09 23:14
MinceRwell, you don't see me using macos, do you? :>Sep 09 23:15
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schestowitzUNIX network performance analysis < >Sep 09 23:18
schestowitzMinceR: it has its strengthSep 09 23:18
schestowitzI just don't think it's any better than my current desktopSep 09 23:19
MinceRwhat does?Sep 09 23:19
schestowitzAnd I did have a chance to test drive os xSep 09 23:19
schestowitzMinceR: you should also try kde 4.4 or 4.3Sep 09 23:19
schestowitzIt's ready for use.. even in alphasSep 09 23:19
MinceRcurrently i'm trying to get a new keyboard :)Sep 09 23:19
schestowitzKonversation is totally fine in alpha/betaSep 09 23:20
MinceRit's a pain to try to find a good keyboard with an inverted L-shaped enter keySep 09 23:20
schestowitzMinceR: I have 3 keyboards hereSep 09 23:20
schestowitzNone that I'm happy withSep 09 23:20
schestowitzI keep swappingSep 09 23:20
MinceRshops and manufacturers tend to hold that detail secretSep 09 23:20
schestowitzEach has its pros and consSep 09 23:20
schestowitzThe one whose contact I like best has no multimedia keysSep 09 23:21
schestowitzAnd it's white, unlike my boxes and monitors (black)Sep 09 23:21
MinceRalso, i want mine to be durableSep 09 23:21
schestowitzIt's toilet white, like MacsSep 09 23:21
MinceRi'm looking at the Logitech G11Sep 09 23:21
MinceRbut most shops only post the stock imageSep 09 23:22
MinceReven Logitech only shows 1 layoutSep 09 23:22
schestowitzFree Software Foundation files objection to Google Book Search settlement < >Sep 09 23:22
MinceRyet i know they offer multiple layoutsSep 09 23:22
schestowitzIf you optimise, you'll always be unhappySep 09 23:22
MinceRSaitek didn't even offer a large photo of their Cyborg keyboardSep 09 23:22
schestowitzSaitek..Sep 09 23:22
MinceRthe only keyboard manufacturer i've seen so far who were willing to actually show me their layouts was UniCompSep 09 23:23
schestowitzHeard of them, never boughtSep 09 23:23
MinceRbut their specialty is buckling spring and i've read that those are hard to press by defaultSep 09 23:23
trmanco 09 23:23
trmancololSep 09 23:23
MinceRwhich is exactly what i'm trying to avoidSep 09 23:23
MinceRand i've never had the opportunity to try themSep 09 23:23
cubezzzI like keytronic, but no one sells it around hereSep 09 23:23
MinceRalso, backlighting would be niceSep 09 23:24
MinceRmy current usb/led light solution is suboptimalSep 09 23:25
MinceRfunny how the ThinkLight works great but this doesn'tSep 09 23:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Linux 09 23:26
schestowitzReplacing X11 09 23:28
MinceRwhat's even harder to find is a cleaning cloth that can be put between the keyboard and the screen of a laptop, made for 17" laptopsSep 09 23:28
schestowitzMinceR: lights? Why?Sep 09 23:28
schestowitzDon't you have a brightly-lit comp. env.?Sep 09 23:28
MinceRschestowitz: in my home setup the keyboard is pretty much shadowed from everythingSep 09 23:28
schestowitzYou ruins your eyesight if notSep 09 23:28
MinceRno, i only light the wall behind the screensSep 09 23:28
schestowitzMinceR: not optimal, eitherSep 09 23:29
MinceRglare isn't optimal eitherSep 09 23:29
MinceRand luring arthropods in from the night through the window isn't optimal either :>Sep 09 23:29
schestowitzI was told that overhead light is still neededSep 09 23:29
schestowitzAfter all those years with 12 fluorescents.....Sep 09 23:29
MinceRactually placing the LED really far from the keyboard seems to workSep 09 23:30
*schestowitz lights another lampSep 09 23:30
MinceRi should have thought of this earlierSep 09 23:30
MinceRmaybe i'll just get a Logitech Internet 350 then :)Sep 09 23:30
tessierMinceR: Happy Hacking Keyboard is nice and has no multimedia keysSep 09 23:30
schestowitzOur eyes work the most while readingSep 09 23:30
MinceRi want multimedia keysSep 09 23:30
tessierWhy?Sep 09 23:31
schestowitzTake care of your sight conditionsSep 09 23:31
MinceRtessier: one-button pause for when someone comes inSep 09 23:31
schestowitzMinceR: SUPER+CSep 09 23:31
MinceRi said one-button :>Sep 09 23:31
schestowitzI left mm keys behindSep 09 23:31
MinceRi already have Super+DownSep 09 23:31
schestowitzThey require the finger to leave key positionsSep 09 23:31
MinceRi'm no touch typistSep 09 23:31
schestowitzUnlike with alt+ctrl+superSep 09 23:31
MinceRthe extra buttons i want are volume+, volume-, play/pause and one extra button i'm planning to bind laterSep 09 23:32
MinceRi don't want lots of extra buttons because i'm not going to have them when i take the laptop elsewhere :>Sep 09 23:32
schestowitzAmarok 2.X proxy settings 09 23:34
schestowitzAmarok2 is NICESep 09 23:34
schestowitzStable tooSep 09 23:34
schestowitzSOme people complained about it in vainSep 09 23:34
schestowitzAmarok is also far later in v2Sep 09 23:34
schestowitzMy RAM usage with very filled desktop is only 37%. It would be around 70% in kde3 (same h/w)Sep 09 23:35
schestowitzFirefox 3.5.3 < >Sep 09 23:36
schestowitz "So instead of telling people to recompile a program, which can break on the next update, tell them to submit a bug report and talk directly to the developers. That will guarantee a permanent fix and we will end up with a more professional image that will attract more people to be assimilated."Sep 09 23:37
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schestowitzHey, _goblinSep 09 23:37
schestowitzI was just about to post some of the wonderful newsSep 09 23:38
_goblinHi!Sep 09 23:38
_goblinjust got in from work....Sep 09 23:38
_goblinthere's got to be more to life than work...surely....Sep 09 23:39
_goblinvery bad day. :(Sep 09 23:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco I prefer the FFII approach. Abolish software patents once and for all.Sep 09 23:39
schestowitz_goblin: Microsoft is the same.Sep 09 23:39
schestowitzBad days...Sep 09 23:39
schestowitz 09 23:39
schestowitz^^^ Microsoft tried to control Linux in the channelSep 09 23:39
_goblinmight cheer me up....Sep 09 23:39
_goblin?Sep 09 23:40
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 09 23:42
schestowitz_goblin: maybeSep 09 23:46
_Hicham_anyone here with some experience in working with gtkbuilder ?Sep 09 23:46
_goblinRoy: I'm hopefully up in Manchester in a few weeks time...Sep 09 23:47
_goblinbe bringing the family for a short break to see relatives.....Sep 09 23:47
schestowitz_goblin: if things are down, remember you could be worse. You could be cyber-prostituting for laptops like CostaboySep 09 23:49
schestowitz_goblin: cool, I'd meet you if you're around hereSep 09 23:49
schestowitz_Hicham_: not glade?Sep 09 23:49
schestowitzUSe Trolltech's (Nokia) tools for GUISep 09 23:50
schestowitzIt's LGPL nowSep 09 23:50
schestowitzAnd it looks far betterSep 09 23:50
_goblin:) Yeah I hope so..... You may be in for a little surprise (not in a bad way) when you find out what I actually do for a living.....Sep 09 23:52
_Hicham__goblin : what do u do for a living? work as a hitman ?Sep 09 23:52
_goblinlol no...Sep 09 23:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Selling Point Emphasised as Microsoft Pulls the Plug on Another Windows 09 23:53
_goblinIm certainly not a criminal.Sep 09 23:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google Chrome for GNU/Linux - Official Launch Seemingly Near 09 23:54
_goblinits not really mysterious......suffice to say that although I helped with a family run software firm (for free) my real job is probably about as far removed from FOSS/Microsoft as you can get.Sep 09 23:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ViewSonic VNB101 Boots Linux 09 23:55
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")Sep 09 23:55
schestowitz_goblin: cowboys ftwSep 09 23:56
schestowitzDo you know the Wolvix guy btw?Sep 09 23:56
_goblinno....don't think so.Sep 09 23:57
schestowitzIt always fascinates me to read his bioSep 09 23:57
schestowitzRead up on itSep 09 23:57
_goblinwill do....Sep 09 23:57
_goblinis it on the site?Sep 09 23:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i'm using chromium 4 on ubuntu a bit, it's pretty niceSep 09 23:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle Delivers for GNU/Linux Before Any Other Platform 09 23:59

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