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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 15th, 2010

trmanco 15 00:02
trmanconeatJan 15 00:02
phIRCe-localTitle:    10 PHP functions you (probably) never use .::. Size~: 110.01 KBJan 15 00:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux (or #Google and #IBM ) is Replacing #Microsoft 15 00:31
phIRCe-localTitle: GNU/Linux (or Google and IBM) is Replacing Microsoft | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 91.43 KBJan 15 00:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] When #Mono Gets Treated Similarly to #Skype (Proprietary) 15 00:32
phIRCe-localTitle: When Mono Gets Treated Similarly to Skype (Proprietary) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 89.29 KBJan 15 00:32
Omar87schestowitz: pingJan 15 00:34
Omar87Hi all.Jan 15 00:34
Omar87schestowitz: regarding you post here: A friend of mine asked a question: "Could this also include MSN messenger updates?"Jan 15 00:36
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsofts Volume Licensing Service Center Still Broken; Use GNU/Linux Instead | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.33 KBJan 15 00:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft Removes #GNU #Linux and #OpenOffice .org from Cyber Cafés and School Clusters 15 00:40
phIRCe-localTitle: How Microsoft Removes GNU/Linux and from Cyber Cafés and School Clusters | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.18 KBJan 15 00:40
trmanco 15 00:40
phIRCe-localTitle: jQuery 1.4 Released   The 14 Days of jQuery .::. Size~: 79.34 KBJan 15 00:40
trmanco:-)Jan 15 00:40
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schestowitzHiJan 15 00:46
schestowitzHi, Omar87Jan 15 00:46
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Jose_X 15 00:47
Omar87schestowitz: heyJan 15 00:47
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft's browser flaw exposed Google to hackers - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 81.34 KBJan 15 00:47
Jose_X>> Microsoft says a security flaw in its Internet Explorer browser played a role in the recent computer attacks against Google and at least 20 other companies.Jan 15 00:47
Jose_X 15 00:48
phIRCe-localTitle: Longtime Microsoft Exec Bill Veghte Leaves - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 83.24 KBJan 15 00:48
Omar87schestowitz: so what do you think?Jan 15 00:48
Jose_X>> 19-year Microsoft executive Bill Veghte is leaving the company, seemingly to run a company.Jan 15 00:48
Jose_X 15 00:49
phIRCe-localTitle: Bing And Google Gain Search Share Again In December, Yahoo Implodes - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 88.21 KBJan 15 00:49
Jose_X>> Microsoft's Bing continues to gain share of the search market at its partner Yahoo's expense.Jan 15 00:49
Omar87schestowitz: Typo here: [You might be amused by the attached picture,” said one our readers] -> [..said one *of* our readers..]Jan 15 00:51
phIRCe-localTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 15 00:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] If #Microsoft Loves Miguel and #Novell , Then They Must be Good for #GNU #Linux, Right? 15 00:52
phIRCe-localTitle: If Microsoft Loves Miguel and Novell, Then They Must be Good for GNU/Linux, Right? | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.89 KBJan 15 00:52
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Jose_Xschestowitz, i posted 3 links. not sure if they are fresh though it appears they are.. it's about microsoft/yahoo msft/google and msft losing execJan 15 00:56
schestowitzHey, Jose_XJan 15 01:03
schestowitzJose_X: yes, I am writing abut tjis a the momentJan 15 01:03
schestowitzOmar87: thanks, hold obJan 15 01:04
_goblinschestowitz: Interesting post about Novell and IcazaJan 15 01:04
Jose_Xschestowitz, i haven't followed the ms yhoo deal closely. you wrote that bing is doing bad. i thought ms was in some way taking over yahoo search. and now the news is that yahoo is losing share to bing.. so what exactly is going on?Jan 15 01:07
Jose_XI'll wait till you post on this again.Jan 15 01:07
Jose_XI'm going to leave very soon.Jan 15 01:07
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schestowitzjono: one minute.. :-)Jan 15 01:17
schestowitzOopsJan 15 01:17
schestowitzJose...Jan 15 01:17
schestowitzHe's outJan 15 01:17
jonoschestowitz hehJan 15 01:17
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sebsebsebschestowitz: I am reading this,  what a good article 15 01:20
phIRCe-localTitle:    Desktop Linux Market Share Will Rise, Thanks to Microsoft |   Linux Magazine .::. Size~: 45.55 KBJan 15 01:20
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Chinese #Google ‘Attack’ Involves #Microsoft #Windows Flaws 15 01:25
phIRCe-localTitle: Chinese Google Attack Involves Microsoft Windows Flaws | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 96.11 KBJan 15 01:25
_goblinQuote "Recently news has been circulating around the Internet of a Linux clone of Windows. " - No there wasn't....the news out there (including my article) was a Linux distro derived from Ubuntu made to look like XP.....Jan 15 01:30
_goblinInfact its only his article that Ive seen refer to Ymlf.OS as an XP clone.Jan 15 01:31
_goblinLooking back at my article "It looks like XP but its derived from Ubuntu. I don't think Microsoft will be best pleased with a Gnome? replica of their GUI." ....and that was pretty typical of everyone who reported it.....what reports was this chap reading?Jan 15 01:32
_goblin"Desktop Linux Market Share Will Rise, Thanks to Microsoft" - Pretty much a no brainer, its been rising since Vista.....and if you think about it if people in China didn't want to pay full wack for XP or Windows and MS makes piracy harder then of course they will flock to Linux...their only other choice is Mac and thats even more expensive.Jan 15 01:34
_goblinLinux Magazine - An exercise in the bloody obvious.Jan 15 01:34
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Jose_X 15 01:47
phIRCe-localTitle: Google's decision on China traces back to founders - Yahoo! Finance .::. Size~: 86.38 KBJan 15 01:47
Jose_X>> Although Google has thousands of shareholders, it has two classes of stock, giving Page and Brin veto power over everyone else, including the company's chief executive, Eric Schmidt.Jan 15 01:47
Jose_X>> Brin, though, has never been completely comfortable with Google playing by the Chinese government's rules.Jan 15 01:47
Jose_XIn each of the last two years, Brin abstained from voting on shareholder proposals demanding that Google defy China's censorship policies. The symbolic act was designed to show he shared some of the concerns outlined in the measures, according to Brin.Jan 15 01:47
Jose_XSome of Brin's misgivings can be traced to family's own experience under Communism. He was born in Moscow in 1973.Jan 15 01:47
Jose_X>>Jan 15 01:48
Jose_X>> By taking a stand in China, Google could win more goodwill among Internet users opposed to the Chinese government's policies.Jan 15 01:49
Jose_Xone more link, schestowitzJan 15 01:49
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yuhong 15 01:52
phIRCe-localTitle: Chinese Google Attack Involves Microsoft Windows Flaws | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.81 KBJan 15 01:52
yuhongJust because the attack only runs on Windows doesn't mean MS is to blame.Jan 15 01:56
yuhongMS did admit that an IE flaw was used in the attacks.Jan 15 01:56
yuhong 15 01:56
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft warns of IE bug used in Chinese attacks on Google .::. Size~: 36.07 KBJan 15 01:56
yuhongAnd that indeed can be blamed on MS.Jan 15 01:57
yuhongBut if no vulnerablity was used, it is the user to blame.Jan 15 01:58
yuhongFor taking some action to execute the attack.Jan 15 01:58
yuhongAnyone there:Jan 15 02:01
yuhongAnyone there?Jan 15 02:01
schestowitzBut...Jan 15 02:01
schestowitzThat's where part of the problem of E-mail acccess originatesJan 15 02:01
schestowitzI don't know if https for gmail will helpJan 15 02:01
yuhongAnd it isn't just MS to blame, it is Adobe too.Jan 15 02:02
yuhongAnd other browsers can be used on Windows which are not vulnerable.Jan 15 02:02
yuhongI don't use IE often even on Windows, I always prefer Firefox or Chrome.Jan 15 02:03
yuhongI think https for Gmail will.Jan 15 02:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] “Kroes Was Quite Clueless About Software Patents and UPLS” via @zoobabJan 15 02:11
phIRCe-localTitle: “Kroes Was Quite Clueless About Software Patents and UPLS,” So the Commission Made a Microsoft Patent Deal Last Week | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 94.75 KBJan 15 02:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sivavaid: Keeping Gmail, Blogger, YouTube, docs, etc. data outside China was the essence of Google compromise over google.cnJan 15 02:14
schestowitz 15 02:14
phIRCe-localTitle: AP Reportedly Close To New Licensing Deal With Yahoo| paidContent .::. Size~: 27.78 KBJan 15 02:14
schestowitzyuhong: still a WIndows issueJan 15 02:15
schestowitzWith non-Free s/w on topJan 15 02:15
yuhongAs I said, IE is indeed part of Windows.Jan 15 02:15
yuhongThe Adobe non-free software involved, however, was cross-platform.Jan 15 02:15
yuhongBut it is wrong to blame MS without evidence that a security hole was indeed used in their software.Jan 15 02:17
yuhongIn this case it turned out to be true, but...Jan 15 02:17
yuhongAnd the security hole don't have to be a vulnerablity, you could blame MS for the stupid feature that led to the Conflicker worm.Jan 15 02:20
yuhongAnd the security hole don't have to be a vulnerablity, you could blame MS for the stupid feature that helped the Conflicker worm too.Jan 15 02:20
MinceRwow, vulnerabilities are "features" now?Jan 15 02:22
yuhongNope, I was talking about AutoPlay.Jan 15 02:22
MinceRyou always excuse m$Jan 15 02:22
yuhongI don't.Jan 15 02:22
MinceRautoplay is a misfeature at bestJan 15 02:22
MinceRbut much closer to a vulnerabilityJan 15 02:22
yuhongAnd it is correct to blame MS for it.Jan 15 02:22
MinceRthen i don't see what your problem is.Jan 15 02:23
yuhongThe problem was that the evidence this article was citing was not enough.Jan 15 02:23
yuhong 15 02:24
phIRCe-localTitle: Chinese Google Attack Involves Microsoft Windows Flaws | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.2 KBJan 15 02:24
yuhongIt did turned out that a security vulnerability in IE was indeed used in the attacks.Jan 15 02:24
yuhongBut blaming MS before that happened was wrong.Jan 15 02:25
yuhongAnd that was my point.Jan 15 02:25
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yuhongThis article should have been cited instead:Jan 15 02:28
yuhong 15 02:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft warns of IE bug used in Chinese attacks on Google .::. Size~: 36.04 KBJan 15 02:28
yuhongGet it now?Jan 15 02:29
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*schestowitz sighsJan 15 02:31
schestowitzNovell is bleeding moreJan 15 02:35
schestowitz 15 02:35
schestowitz,130061733,339300353,00.htm?omnRef=1337Jan 15 02:35
phIRCe-localTitle: mobile .::. Size~: 10.62 KBJan 15 02:35
phIRCe-localTitle: Mac Uni cans 'inferior' GroupWise for Gmail - News - Software - ZDNet Australia .::. Size~: 73.64 KBJan 15 02:35
schestowitz 15 02:35
phIRCe-localTitle: Macquarie University to save millions with Gmail deal |  The Australian .::. Size~: 49.05 KBJan 15 02:35
schestowitzIt he sucking up to RMS now (Novell)? 15 02:36
phIRCe-localTitle:  Richard Stallman on GPL Exceptions  .::. Size~: 36.58 KBJan 15 02:36
schestowitzHe used a decent picture, not one of those that are against MSJan 15 02:37
schestowitz*RMSJan 15 02:37
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schestowitz 15 03:15
phIRCe-localTitle: Against Monopoly  .::. Size~: 23.49 KBJan 15 03:15
schestowitz 15 03:18
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Politics Story | Obama Appointee Sunstein Favors Infiltrating Online Groups .::. Size~: 181.84 KBJan 15 03:18
schestowitz 15 03:23
phIRCe-localTitle: Whitehead Institute - Chimp and human Y chromosomes evolving faster than expected .::. Size~: 32.09 KBJan 15 03:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] And Having a Hot bed coffee RT @gnurag: Defeated the snooze button and saw sunrise today!Jan 15 03:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] LOL ! :-D RT @pradeepto: @anivar no, we reached office at the same time. :)Jan 15 03:37
trmanco"The Google Earth Plugin is currently only available on Windows and Mac OS X 10.4+."Jan 15 03:37
trmanco:/Jan 15 03:37
schestowitzchrome?Jan 15 03:38
trmancono, in firefoxJan 15 03:39
trmancoa google earth 3d map thingJan 15 03:39
trmanco 15 03:40
phIRCe-localTitle: Tech Boom: Intels Earnings Up an Astounding 875% .::. Size~: 57.86 KBJan 15 03:40
DaemonFCschestowitz, The FGLRX driver is so bad that it makes Oblivion in Wine unplayable :PJan 15 03:45
DaemonFCit crashes unless you choose "Very Low" and then it looks like crap and has all kinds of visual distortionsJan 15 03:45
DaemonFCtrmanco, Cause Google Earth is only for WindowsJan 15 03:46
DaemonFCthere is no Linux versionJan 15 03:46
trmancono it's notJan 15 03:46
trmancoyes there isJan 15 03:46
DaemonFCnopeJan 15 03:46
DaemonFCit's the Windows version running in WineJan 15 03:46
trmancoI'm using oneJan 15 03:46
DaemonFCwrapped in a DEB or RPM packageJan 15 03:46
DaemonFC:DJan 15 03:46
trmancoohJan 15 03:46
trmancoit can't beJan 15 03:46
DaemonFCthere's also no Linux version of PicasaJan 15 03:47
DaemonFCChrome is the only native Google software to LinuxJan 15 03:47
trmancoit's QtJan 15 03:47
trmancoyou are mistakenJan 15 03:48
DaemonFC 15 03:48
phIRCe-localTitle: Picasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 70.26 KBJan 15 03:48
trmancoit looked native hereJan 15 03:48
trmancoI don't use picassaJan 15 03:48
DaemonFCGoogle is also discontinuing Picasa for Linux, citing low adoptionJan 15 03:48
DaemonFCGoogle is not a Linux-friendly companyJan 15 03:49
DaemonFCthey tend to hire Windows programmers that make very Windows-centric programs that depend heavily on Win32Jan 15 03:49
trmanco"Starting with the version 4 beta Google Earth functions under Linux, as a native port using the Qt-toolkit. It is proprietary software specifically in order to impose Digital Rights Management[citation needed]; the Free Software Foundation consider the development of a free compatible client for Google Earth to be a High Priority Free Software Project.[34]"Jan 15 03:49
DaemonFCthey've contributed to Wine enough to where you can get most of their software running under itJan 15 03:50
DaemonFCahhhJan 15 03:50
DaemonFClast time I used it, it was just the Windows version with it's own version of Wine bundled in to run onJan 15 03:50
schestowitz 15 03:50
phIRCe-localTitle: Google Launches Relief Site To Help Haiti | WebProNews .::. Size~: 30.21 KBJan 15 03:50
trmancoDaemonFC: the last time you used it was around 2005 :-PJan 15 03:51
DaemonFCThe reason it took Google so long to port Chrome is because they made it rely so much on WindowsJan 15 03:51
schestowitztrmanco: it's revenue that countsJan 15 03:51
DaemonFCeven to the point of disassembling the Windows kernelJan 15 03:51
trmancoyes, they even used winsockJan 15 03:51
schestowitzIntel has meager earningsJan 15 03:51
schestowitzIf they made 1$, they could also be up 100000000000000% or whateverJan 15 03:52
DaemonFCtrmanco, People have criticized Mozilla software of being bloated, but it ports wellJan 15 03:52
DaemonFChow many systems does Firefox run on, officially or unofficially?Jan 15 03:52
trmancomanyJan 15 03:52
DaemonFCGoogle has taken years just to support Mac and LinuxJan 15 03:53
trmancoI just wish there was a Qt port of them bothJan 15 03:53
DaemonFCMozilla supported them on day 1, right alongside WindowsJan 15 03:53
DaemonFClets not forget that Firefox is pretty much exactly the same on any OS you use it onJan 15 03:54
DaemonFCmore or less all the same extensions work, it has the same feature setJan 15 03:54
trmancothey need pgo on linuxJan 15 03:54
DaemonFCFirefox is for all intents and purposes, its own operating systemJan 15 03:55
DaemonFCyou can even embed chat clients for AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc. into itJan 15 03:55
DaemonFCand ChatzillaJan 15 03:55
DaemonFCNintendo emulators....Jan 15 03:55
DaemonFCoffice suitesJan 15 03:56
DaemonFCthat's what scared the hell out of Microsoft over Netscape, when Netscape started talking about making the OS it ran on irrelevant Jan 15 03:56
DaemonFCmost browsers are in a race to do exactly that, while Microsoft is gearing up IE development to try to make you depend on Windows moreJan 15 03:57
DaemonFCyou'll see Microsoft try to keep features that things like Google Apps need out of Internet Explorer while they push Office Live an Windows AzureJan 15 03:58
DaemonFCI totally think Chrome Tab is the wrong thing to do. I think a good old fashioned "Pardon us, we noticed your browser is a pile of shit, download Chrome" would do nicelyJan 15 04:00
trmancosome people take that as an offenseJan 15 04:00
trmancothe notice thingJan 15 04:00
trmancopeople who use that junk should be on the internetJan 15 04:01
trmancoif they like ms word so much, they should stick with it... but please don't turn on the internet or if you want to go on the internet use a decent browserJan 15 04:01
trmancoshouldn't*Jan 15 04:02
DaemonFCwell, I'd like to see some kind of trojan horse that breaks internet Explorer or something Jan 15 04:02
DaemonFCthat would be coolJan 15 04:02
trmancololJan 15 04:02
trmancowhy not break the whole systemJan 15 04:02
trmancoand net-install something else while the owner is sleeping?Jan 15 04:02
trmanco:-PJan 15 04:02
DaemonFCcause most PC makers don't include a recovery discJan 15 04:02
DaemonFCjust fuck IE up so bad it doesn't even work, and slap a bunch of other browsers on the machineJan 15 04:03
trmancothat too, would be a good ideaJan 15 04:03
trmancowell, cya, going to bedJan 15 04:04
trmanco4 am here :/Jan 15 04:04
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DaemonFClooks like Ubuntu wants a music storeJan 15 04:41
DaemonFC 15 04:41
phIRCe-localTitle: Ubuntu One Music Store : Blueprints : Ubuntu .::. Size~: 23.72 KBJan 15 04:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Downloaded Ubuntu Lucid Liynx Alpha 2, wrote it on a USB thumb drive... Let the fun (bughunting) begin... ;-)Jan 15 04:42
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DaemonFCI can't use Lucid because FGLRX doesn't support itJan 15 04:53
DaemonFCit probably will within the next week, AMD revisions the driver about once a month between the 15th and 21stJan 15 04:53
DaemonFCwould be nice if Ubuntu had a Build Service like system so I could at least slap the new GNOME packages into KarmicJan 15 04:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Welcome to DarkMarket – global one-stop shop for cybercrime and banking fraud | Technology | 15 05:32
phIRCe-localTitle: Welcome to DarkMarket – global one-stop shop for cybercrime and banking fraud  |Technology | .::. Size~: 79.75 KBJan 15 05:32
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DaemonFC "Most People Do Not Want To Pay For Online News - They Want It Free"Jan 15 05:45
DaemonFCI commented on this: "I for one WANT to pay for online news, I hate money, I want them to take all of it so I can read the government propaganda and other assorted crap. Especially the Rupert Murdoch Fixed Noise Channel, that’s the good kind of crack, I hope he charges a lot for it. *grin*"Jan 15 05:45
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cubezzzanyone know what magicdev does?Jan 15 06:05
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phIRCe-localTitle: Article 1 .::. Size~: 7.48 KBJan 15 06:11
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phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Learn to Speak Tea Bag .::. Size~: 155.45 KBJan 15 06:25
cubezzzah, it's part of GNOMEJan 15 06:31
DaemonFChmmm, the Republicans aren't even going to try to fundraise toe oust Evan BayhJan 15 06:34
DaemonFC:PJan 15 06:34
DaemonFCso it'll probably be an uncontested re-electionJan 15 06:34
DaemonFC*toJan 15 06:35
DaemonFCthey're nominating someone to run against him again, but those people never take more than about 30% of the voteJan 15 06:35
DaemonFC 15 06:50
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Worldwide Domination .::. Size~: 145.76 KBJan 15 06:50
DaemonFCroflJan 15 06:50
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @aslam: RT @michaelgeist: Ushahidi is mapping crisis information from Haiti. (via @EllnMllr)Jan 15 06:58
phIRCe-localTitle: Haiti .::. Size~: 47.55 KBJan 15 06:58
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Via releases M'Serve Nano-based 4 drive network server 15 07:21
phIRCe-localTitle: Via debuts M'Serv 2100 server with 64-bit Nano CPU -- Engadget .::. Size~: 130.77 KBJan 15 07:21
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Obama to Pat Robertson: "... in times of amazing human suffering somebody says something that can be so utterly stupid" 15 07:26
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Microsoft knew about 0-day exploit used during #Chinese attack against #Google and did nothing 15 07:26
phIRCe-localTitle: White House criticizes evangelist's Haiti remark - Yahoo! News .::. Size~: 94.26 KBJan 15 07:26
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Technology Story | IE 0-Day Flaw Used In Chinese Attack .::. Size~: 151.68 KBJan 15 07:26
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phIRCe-localTitle: Huff TV: Arianna: Pat Robertson Gives Religion A Bad Name With His Disaster Comments .::. Size~: 223.85 KBJan 15 07:32
DaemonFC"Remember after 9/11, when he blamed 9/11 on the ACLU, and People For The American Way, and gay people. So there's a pattern here of blaming every disaster on something other than what actually happened.""Jan 15 07:32
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: Remember that Family Guy clip where everyone on Earth was raptured other than Jerry Falwell and Pat RobertsonJan 15 07:33
DaemonFCand they both started arguing over who could hate the rock on the ground in front of themJan 15 07:33
DaemonFC 15 07:34
phIRCe-localTitle: Family Guy - The Rapture video search for too - Buzznet .::. Size~: 45.97 KBJan 15 07:34
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DaemonFCapparently Cartoon Network made a game with UnityJan 15 08:11
DaemonFCthe engine that's based on MonoJan 15 08:12
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DaemonFCIt really pisses me off when a torrent is so slow that Rapidshare is fast by comparisonJan 15 08:42
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Boy, babies born now are going to get picked on by "Grahanuthukku poranda vaney!!" (via @sup3kiddo)Jan 15 08:56
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Even #TheOnion hates #GlennBeck 15 08:56
phIRCe-localTitle: Victim In Fatal Car Accident Tragically Not Glenn Beck | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 25.58 KBJan 15 08:56
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Even #TheOnion hates #douchebag #GlennBeck 15 09:01
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #TheOnion continues to predict the future (this time from 2003) 15 09:01
phIRCe-localTitle: Victim In Fatal Car Accident Tragically Not Glenn Beck | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 25.58 KBJan 15 09:01
phIRCe-localTitle: This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No it won't | The Onion - America's Finest News Source .::. Size~: 45.75 KBJan 15 09:01
DaemonFCChris Pirillo gets the question "What's the difference between Windows Home and Windows Server?"Jan 15 09:02
DaemonFCI'd say "Ohhhhhhh, about $500, give or take a thousand"Jan 15 09:02
DaemonFCof course he went on much longer, gave a very dumbed down non-technical answer, bashed Linux, and called it a dayJan 15 09:06
DaemonFC"No, don't use Linux!, get something from Microsoft that will set you back a couple of mortgage payments to do essentially the same thing!"Jan 15 09:08
DaemonFC"And go pay Visible Technologies a visit too"Jan 15 09:08
-christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, it appears one of our volunteers set a network ban which were way too wide last night in an attempt to deal with the current attacks; as a result a truckload of genuine users have been banned from the network, with a misleading and unhelpful message. For more information please enable +w in your client. Apologies for the inconvenience, we'll try tidy up after them now.Jan 15 09:08
kecskebakWhat attacks were these?Jan 15 09:09
DaemonFCkecskebak: Chris Pirillo explaining a server OS vs a desktop OSJan 15 09:12
DaemonFCthose were not quotes, those were me making fun of what he did sayJan 15 09:12
DaemonFCand we see that the only people making a distinction between the two really, are Microsoft and AppleJan 15 09:13
DaemonFCUbuntu doesn't care if you use it as a server, and CentOS doesn't care if you make it into a desktopJan 15 09:13
DaemonFC*only two companiesJan 15 09:14
DaemonFCthat isJan 15 09:14
DaemonFCI mean there are a few niche proprietary UNIX operating systems that haven't completely died yet and are incredibly expensive, I guessJan 15 09:14
DaemonFCnobody gets those apart from the hardware though and nobody would want to use them as a desktop OS anywayJan 15 09:15
kecskebakI meant the ones -christel- talked about in that global messageJan 15 09:15
kecskebakHas someone been spamming Freenode?Jan 15 09:15
DaemonFCI don't knowJan 15 09:16
DaemonFC 15 09:29
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Haitians react to televangelist Pat Robertson's 'devil pact' remarks .::. Size~: 130.25 KBJan 15 09:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] seems like nonfree RT @aslam: TN Govt has shared all skool text books online 4 free (via @vinaysreenivasa @prathambooksJan 15 09:32
phIRCe-localTitle: Govt. of Tamil Nadu - Textbooks Online .::. Size~: 9.06 KBJan 15 09:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] bangalore looked lk a hartal day. Hotels & shops closed . /me 2 8 & still alive. RT @gkjohn: I'm eating during the #eclipse. Will I die?Jan 15 09:34
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak likes Nezus One over iPhone... wait, what? #googleJan 15 09:41
phIRCe-localTitle: Apple Co-Founder Steve Wozniak's Favorite Gadget? The Google Phone - Steve Wozniak - Gizmodo .::. Size~: 62.78 KBJan 15 09:42
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #GNUstep looks native on Windows... upcoming #Mono killer? 15 09:46
phIRCe-localTitle: Heron's Perch: More Windows stuff... .::. Size~: 72.68 KBJan 15 09:46
*benJIman has quit (K-lined)Jan 15 09:50
schestowitz 15 09:57
phIRCe-localTitle: Cyber attack hits law firm that sued China • The Register .::. Size~: 27.41 KBJan 15 09:57
schestowitz 15 10:00
phIRCe-localTitle:                                     Brad and Angelina Donate $1M as Celebs Urge Haiti Relief |                     NBC Connecticut       .::. Size~: 371.83 KBJan 15 10:00
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] won their dispute with #douchebag #GlennBeck 15 10:01
phIRCe-localTitle: Home Page .::. Size~: 16.54 KBJan 15 10:03
*Adus (n=joeh@nat/microsoft/x-dejnaaygrqyksqcj) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 10:04
AdusI'm back, miss me?Jan 15 10:04
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schestowitz 15 10:07
phIRCe-localTitle: Strangest language feature - Stack Overflow .::. Size~: 202.73 KBJan 15 10:07
schestowitzAdus: 15 10:10
phIRCe-localTitle: "Defining the contours of freedom" - Free Software Foundation - Matt Woodward's posterous .::. Size~: 20.67 KBJan 15 10:10
AdusI don't even need to watch that to know I disagree :pJan 15 10:10
schestowitzIt helps to know what Lessig thinks, no?Jan 15 10:11
schestowitzBe open minded. I am.Jan 15 10:11
schestowitzIt's when those to whom you try to listen attack you (lawsuits, smears, dumping) to it gets harder to listen. Did the FSF attack your livelihood?Jan 15 10:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Watched #carpool with @bobbyllew interviewing @bengoldacre. Left me wanting more.Jan 15 10:13
*benJIman ( has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 10:13
schestowitz 15 10:14
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Adusschestowitz: I don't hold the FSF in high enough regard to let their actions worry me to be perfectly honest.Jan 15 10:14
cubezzzoldJan 15 10:14
AdusThey are somewhat like an annoying fly.Jan 15 10:15
schestowitzSolidarity is not an insect :-)Jan 15 10:16
schestowitzcubezzz: yes, I amJan 15 10:16
cubezzzyou must be really bored AdusJan 15 10:17
DaemonFCschestowitz: I see what oiaohm meant about the RadeonHD taking a beating due to bad OpenGL supportJan 15 10:17
AdusI'd rather eat my own arm than buy an ATI Video Card :pJan 15 10:17
DaemonFCthe card only supports 2.1, which means if the game uses more extensions, they all get to run on the CPUJan 15 10:17
DaemonFCso in a lot of ways, I might be better off using my old Geforce cardJan 15 10:18
*DaemonFC bangs head on deskJan 15 10:18
schestowitzAdus: doesn't work well on your Linux box?Jan 15 10:18
AdusATI cards have always had really bad OpenGL support. Their D3D support is slightly better, but they still don't implement everything. In general, their drivers are far sub-standard compared to nvidia.Jan 15 10:18
*schestowitz just needs multi-headJan 15 10:19
AdusI don't have a Linux box schestowitz. I do have an OpenBSD Box though :pJan 15 10:19
schestowitzDid you have a chance to try out kde4?Jan 15 10:19
schestowitzHave a go with Fedora 12. It's fun.Jan 15 10:19
schestowitzSet up a second partition (or third or fourth)Jan 15 10:20
AdusNo, I don't have a desktop environment on it. I maintain a network library in my spare time, which has *nix support, I use that box to test it :pJan 15 10:20
AdusSo just need command lineJan 15 10:20
schestowitzFedora 12 is free try. ONLY TODAY!Jan 15 10:20
AdusI have no real interest of running anything else on my desktop. I'm happy with 7 x64 thanksJan 15 10:21
schestowitz 15 10:21
phIRCe-localTitle: Yahoo reportedly hit by China hackers - China, Google, Yahoo, zero day exploit - Techworld .::. Size~: 48.83 KBJan 15 10:21
schestowitzAdus: you don't know what you're missin'! :-) :-)Jan 15 10:21
schestowitzGNUgle gains based on more surveys: 15 10:22
phIRCe-localTitle: Google surges; Bing, Yahoo slip in search market - bing, Google, search engines, Yahoo - Techworld .::. Size~: 49.67 KBJan 15 10:22
DaemonFCI didn't figure the Oblivion problems with this card were Wine related as it worked just find on my GeforceJan 15 10:22
schestowitzNow comScore and HitWise agree with Neisen.Jan 15 10:22
AdusI did run Linux, once upon a time.Jan 15 10:23
schestowitzThat's US marketJan 15 10:23
schestowitzBong is the fail [sic]. 3% market share only.Jan 15 10:23
schestowitzAdus: which distro?Jan 15 10:23
AdusThen I turned all evil and started working for big companies. Eidos, Codemasters, EA, Microsoft.Jan 15 10:23
Adusand I stoppedJan 15 10:23
AdusSlackware, this was years and years aog thoughJan 15 10:23
schestowitzYeah, different daysJan 15 10:23
schestowitzI remember old Red Hat and KDE 2Jan 15 10:24
schestowitzWhen it was newJan 15 10:24
AdusI remember waiting about 12 hours to Gentoo to compile once :pJan 15 10:24
schestowitzI had transluent windows decorations even back thenJan 15 10:24
schestowitzAdus: Gentoo is not for the faint-heartedJan 15 10:24
schestowitzTry MandrivaJan 15 10:24
schestowitz20 minutes to set up, living happily thereafterJan 15 10:25
Adusschestowitz: I just said, I'm not interested in running Linux. I'm perfectly competent of setting it up.Jan 15 10:25
AdusWhen I worked at Eidos, I was the lead server programmer for an MMO, which ran on Linux servers. So, I've had my fair share of Linux usage.Jan 15 10:25
AdusI just don't see that it's suitable for a desktop. Server, I might give you.Jan 15 10:25
schestowitzAdus: but that's Linux /servers/Jan 15 10:26
schestowitzYou need to know the DEsJan 15 10:26
Diablo-D3xfce > *Jan 15 10:26
schestowitzAdus: it's very suitable for many people I knowJan 15 10:26
AdusWe had our own distro of Linux, which some poor guys in the basement has to maintain :pJan 15 10:26
Adushad*Jan 15 10:26
Diablo-D3Adus: that was kinda dumbJan 15 10:26
schestowitzWere they poor?Jan 15 10:26
Diablo-D3its easier to just use debianJan 15 10:26
schestowitzDid they say they were "poor guys"?Jan 15 10:26
Adusschestowitz: They looked like it. Poor ITJan 15 10:27
schestowitzAnd why did the company have a "basement"?Jan 15 10:27
cubezzzjust a bored trollJan 15 10:27
AdusDiablo-D3: It was really stripped down.Jan 15 10:27
schestowitzIs it like a zoo where you keep wolves in den and Linux geeks in their mythical habitat (basement)?Jan 15 10:27
Diablo-D3Adus: unless they were targeting embedded devices, debian is still the right wayJan 15 10:27
schestowitzAdus: were they badly paid?Jan 15 10:27
schestowitzAs in, "poor IT"Jan 15 10:27
AdusNot really, it was just where Operations and IT were, in the basement :pJan 15 10:27
Diablo-D3Adus: the smallest debian install is under half a gig.Jan 15 10:27
schestowitzI tend to think of Linux people as Google employees (well paid)Jan 15 10:27
AdusDiablo-D3: But it still has components you don't really need.Jan 15 10:28
AdusGoogle offered me a job, when I came to MS, but I took this one instead, better money :pJan 15 10:28
Diablo-D3Adus: no it really doesnt. It has enough to boot and run apt-get.Jan 15 10:28
schestowitzAnd Windows DEVELOP~1 as some guys in pyjamas spending all day combating malwareJan 15 10:28
Diablo-D3Adus: it cant do anything else.Jan 15 10:28
schestowitz[10:27] <Adus> Not really, it was just where Operations and IT were, in the basement :pJan 15 10:28
schestowitzAll of IT?Jan 15 10:29
AdusIT for the project I was on, yes.Jan 15 10:29
AdusEidos aren't all that big, well, they don't even exist anymoreJan 15 10:29
AdusSquare own themJan 15 10:29
schestowitzSo why Linux isolated?Jan 15 10:29
schestowitzIf all IT worked in what you call a basement...Jan 15 10:29
Diablo-D3schestowitz: dude, are you high?Jan 15 10:29
schestowitz[10:26] <Adus> We had our own distro of Linux, which some poor guys in the basement has to maintain :pJan 15 10:29
Diablo-D3IT is always in the basementJan 15 10:29
Adusschestowitz: Oh, they were the server operations IT people, not normal ITJan 15 10:30
schestowitzDiablo-D3: I'm looooooooooow.Jan 15 10:30
schestowitzAdus: why is it not "normal" IT?Jan 15 10:30
schestowitzMany IT staff in the world operates serversJan 15 10:30
Diablo-D3proof Roy has never worked for a real companyJan 15 10:30
*Diablo-D3 facepalmsJan 15 10:30
schestowitzOperation, not just development, which is related anywayJan 15 10:30
Diablo-D3schestowitz: most large companies split the IT deparment in halfJan 15 10:31
schestowitzDiablo-D3: I did actuallyJan 15 10:31
schestowitzManyJan 15 10:31
AdusBecause normal IT are the people who clean up after artists mess up their machines and you forget your password.Jan 15 10:31
Diablo-D3you have the "helpdesk" and you have "actual IT"Jan 15 10:31
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] Infographic of the Day: China's Censors Hate Free Speech and Fun 15 10:31
phIRCe-localTitle: Infographic of the Day: China's Censors Hate Free Speech and Fun | Design & Innovation | Fast Company .::. Size~: 39.78 KBJan 15 10:31
Diablo-D3the guys in the basement babysitting servers == actual ITJan 15 10:31
Diablo-D3the guys who babysit idiot artists == helpdeskJan 15 10:31
schestowitzHelpdesk is not ITJan 15 10:31
AdusAt Microsoft we have 3 main IT departments that I deal with.Jan 15 10:31
schestowitzOr not in the same senseJan 15 10:31
AdusIT Helpdesk, GamesIT and Security & ComplianceJan 15 10:31
schestowitzYou refer to people who run the Linux servers as not IT?Jan 15 10:31
schestowitzHow come?Jan 15 10:31
Diablo-D3linux server babysitters == real ITJan 15 10:32
schestowitzTHey are not malware purgersJan 15 10:32
Diablo-D3windows desktop babysitters == helpdeskJan 15 10:32
Adusschestowitz: I'd say they are IT Operations personallyJan 15 10:32
AdusI agree with Diablo-D3Jan 15 10:32
schestowitzAdus: so IT after allJan 15 10:32
Diablo-D3its that way at almost every company I know of that splits their IT departmentsJan 15 10:32
AdusThe people who deal with the usual stuff, like forgotten passwords etc at Microsoft are the IT Helpdesk. GamesIT maintain our servers and stuff.Jan 15 10:32
schestowitzDiablo-D3: ours tooJan 15 10:32
Adusand Security & ComplianceJan 15 10:32
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 10:32
schestowitzBut with us, it's research and ITJan 15 10:32
Adusmake sure we've got all teh security updates, and no pirated software etcJan 15 10:33
Adus:pJan 15 10:33
schestowitzWhere research is developmentJan 15 10:33
Diablo-D3though, ahemJan 15 10:33
Diablo-D3people without social skills and are superior specimens of humanity = ITJan 15 10:33
schestowitzResearchers are also programmers basicallyJan 15 10:33
Diablo-D3the real babysitters = helpdeskJan 15 10:33
*Diablo-D3 flexes musclesJan 15 10:33
schestowitzAdus: "pirated"?Jan 15 10:33
schestowitzIs that still going?Jan 15 10:34
schestowitzBritish tunnel?Jan 15 10:34
schestowitzThey can just manufacture the boxes in the UK, no reason pirates should get to themJan 15 10:34
oiaohmYou got my message about direct x and wine ie don't  schestowitz?Jan 15 10:34
AdusI get rude emails from S&C sometimes, wehn I don't install a security update fast enoughJan 15 10:34
Adus"You are receiving this notification as a result of compliance reports that indicate system(s) you have administrative access to do not meet with the Microsoft corporate security policy."Jan 15 10:35
Adus:pJan 15 10:35
schestowitzoiaohm: yesJan 15 10:35
schestowitzunlicensed copies then, not "piracy"Jan 15 10:35
cubezzzsemanticsJan 15 10:35
Adus^Jan 15 10:35
schestowitzNoJan 15 10:35
schestowitzLAguageJan 15 10:35
schestowitzI can't call copyright infringer "terrorist"Jan 15 10:35
schestowitzCause he ain't terrorising to achieve political goals with forceJan 15 10:36
schestowitzIn fact, it's likely to have very different intentJan 15 10:36
cubezzzyou have a pointJan 15 10:37
AdusI dunno, I'd say the Free Software movement is pretty political.Jan 15 10:37
schestowitz 15 10:37
cubezzz""Sometimes used, in a quasi-figurative sense, of violationJan 15 10:37
cubezzz      of copyright; but for this, infringement is the correctJan 15 10:37
cubezzz      and preferable term."Jan 15 10:37
phIRCe-localTitle: The future of open source - open source - Techworld .::. Size~: 52.74 KBJan 15 10:37
schestowitzAdus: it isJan 15 10:37
schestowitzPer the FSF anywayJan 15 10:37
Diablo-D3Adus: software is politicalJan 15 10:37
Diablo-D3politics comes into anything where egos run strongJan 15 10:37
cubezzz"1913 Webster"Jan 15 10:37
Diablo-D3its a natural result of letting humans do thingsJan 15 10:37
AdusNo, software is a means to an end, money. :pJan 15 10:37
schestowitzHehe.Jan 15 10:37
Diablo-D3no, software is a means to an end, happyness.Jan 15 10:37
Diablo-D3FOSS is not, and never will be, about moneyJan 15 10:38
schestowitzIs life's wealth (symbols of wealth) the means to an endJan 15 10:38
schestowitzThe goal?Jan 15 10:38
schestowitzOr the means to achieve some goal?Jan 15 10:38
AdusDiablo-D3: Well yes, they are two different ideals.Jan 15 10:38
AdusPolticial ideals.Jan 15 10:38
AdusThat's my point.Jan 15 10:38
Diablo-D3imo, FOSS is the final outcome of what people like our forefathers were working on when they created the united states.Jan 15 10:38
schestowitzPeople pay for Free softwareJan 15 10:38
schestowitzIf there is a programme they like they want it to workJan 15 10:38
schestowitzThey pay to fix itJan 15 10:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Telefonica et Orange now lobbying the European Parliament to get rid of Kroes, because she was for NetNeutrality and cheap 3G roamingJan 15 10:39
schestowitzT'so has just been hired by GoogleJan 15 10:39
schestowitzTHey are moving to ext4Jan 15 10:39
schestowitzThey sent the mail to Chris Mason tooJan 15 10:39
Adusschestowitz: yes yes, I've heard the argument before. And you might have a point, but the fact is: The vast majority of people do not pay for free software.Jan 15 10:39
schestowitzchris.mason@oracle.comJan 15 10:39
Diablo-D3ext4 is pretty decentJan 15 10:39
schestowitzIt's as though they rejected his wares for nolwJan 15 10:39
Diablo-D3its no btrfs, but its usefulJan 15 10:39
cubezzzeveryone pays for _services_Jan 15 10:39
schestowitzBut Oracle pays for btrfsJan 15 10:39
schestowitzANd it *gasp* GIVES IT AWAY!Jan 15 10:39
AdusOracle are great at screwing people for every penny they have.Jan 15 10:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "hit the shelves in the run up to Christmas?" and it's a "NEWS" story in fucking JANUARY? 15 10:40
phIRCe-localTitle: X-Box moves towards 'action computing' - Channel 4 News .::. Size~: 29.92 KBJan 15 10:40
oiaohmDon't lie AdusJan 15 10:40
Diablo-D3oracle is also good at helping open source software.Jan 15 10:40
schestowitzSo that other engs (including one from Novell) can help Oracle FS be betterJan 15 10:40
oiaohmOracle over the years have donated a lot of software.  AdusJan 15 10:40
cubezzzI'd say Microsoft is the best at screwing peopleJan 15 10:40
Diablo-D3oracle and sun both are very pro-fossJan 15 10:40
AdusMaybe, but have you ever had to purchase enterprise software through oracle? It costs a fortune.Jan 15 10:40
cubezzzthey have a long track recordJan 15 10:40
Diablo-D3Adus: yes, so?Jan 15 10:40
Diablo-D3no one said they didnt make closed source software.Jan 15 10:40
schestowitzcubezzz: remember that Microsoft job ad from 2 weeks agoJan 15 10:40
AdusFar more than it's worth, imho.Jan 15 10:41
Diablo-D3Adus: wellJan 15 10:41
Diablo-D3dependsJan 15 10:41
AdusWhich job ad?Jan 15 10:41
schestowitzThey want to cuddle only to pretend and screw overJan 15 10:41
oiaohmBeing open source supporting does not equal being cheap.  AdusJan 15 10:41
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] how do we make people move to from twitter??Jan 15 10:41
schestowitzThey removed that job addJan 15 10:41
schestowitz404Jan 15 10:41
Diablo-D3_enterprise_ software should cost a fortune... because its generally used to _make_ a fortune.Jan 15 10:41
schestowitz"Quick! Hide the evidence"Jan 15 10:41
oiaohmSolutions from Orcale comes in many levels.Jan 15 10:41
Diablo-D3its not sold to individuals generallyJan 15 10:41
Diablo-D3now, that said, re: the oracle db software, pg is clearly the superior.Jan 15 10:41
cubezzzdoes anyone here work for Orcale? Jan 15 10:41
oiaohmYou can choose solutions from Orcale that are completely open source.  Or you can choose solutions completely closed.Jan 15 10:41
Diablo-D3but I consider oracle and sun friends of the foss movementJan 15 10:42
oiaohmOrcale only gives the customers what they want.Jan 15 10:42
Diablo-D3I use software from both on a daily basis... open source software.Jan 15 10:42
AdusOracle are just down the road from here.Jan 15 10:42
Diablo-D3Adus: where you at?Jan 15 10:42
oiaohmYou think Orcales closed source solutions are expensive AdusJan 15 10:42
oiaohmYou sould see some of there open source ones where you get the rights to the source code AdusJan 15 10:42
AdusDiablo-D3: UK. I am based at Lionhead Studios in Guildford most of the time. I also spend a lot of time at Microsoft HQ in TVP, Reading (just down the road)Jan 15 10:43
AdusOracle are at TVP as wellJan 15 10:43
Diablo-D3ahh.Jan 15 10:43
AdusI work on the Xbox 360 project at msJan 15 10:43
Diablo-D3Adus: do remember, though, btrfs is an oracle product, and java and all the open source java related stuff is a sun product.Jan 15 10:43
Diablo-D3they're just as much products as anything else anyone else doesJan 15 10:43
Diablo-D3Sun sells glassfish support contracts, for exampleJan 15 10:44
Diablo-D3glassfish == javaee6 stackJan 15 10:44
AdusThis might not come as a huge surprise, but I'm not a big fan of Java :pJan 15 10:44
cubezzzhe we go :)Jan 15 10:45
Diablo-D3I am, and quite a few people here are.Jan 15 10:45
cubezzzhere we go :)Jan 15 10:45
Diablo-D3but thats not really relevant.Jan 15 10:45
Diablo-D3glassfish and openjdk6 represent millions of manhours of developmentJan 15 10:45
Diablo-D3tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in developmentJan 15 10:45
Diablo-D3given away for free.Jan 15 10:45
Diablo-D3I don't see Microsoft making the same commitment to the people.Jan 15 10:46
AdusThat depends exaclty what the commitment is.Jan 15 10:46
oiaohmAt least with Orcale if you are willing to pay enough you can own the source code of the solution out right.Jan 15 10:46
oiaohmAll of it.Jan 15 10:46
oiaohmThere is nothing equal from MS.Jan 15 10:47
cubezzzone can live without MicrosoftJan 15 10:47
AdusYes yes, and the world would be a better place bla bla bla.Jan 15 10:47
AdusAs if some other company (*cough* Apple/Google) wouldn't take their place :pJan 15 10:47
oiaohmGoogle taking the place of MS is not as big of threat.Jan 15 10:48
AdusI think everyone underestimates Google. Microsoft see Google as a bigger threat than Apple for good reason.Jan 15 10:48
oiaohmThey give away the source code to lots of the solutions so making it possiable for other parties compete with them.Jan 15 10:48
DaemonFC 15 10:49
phIRCe-localTitle: Java SE 6 Update 18 Release Notes. .::. Size~: 109.7 KBJan 15 10:49
oiaohmI don't underestimate google AdusJan 15 10:49
DaemonFCSun patches 356 bugs in JavaJan 15 10:49
Diablo-D3if apple or google (or both) took microsoft's place... nothing of value would be lost.Jan 15 10:49
cubezzzGoogle makes all it's money from Advertising, quite different from MicrosoftJan 15 10:49
oiaohmBut I am smart enough to know that google is not 100 percent control of there plaforms  AdusJan 15 10:49
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oiaohmAnd there platforms are released in a way competors could be new platforms out of thiers so no strong vendor lockin.Jan 15 10:50
AdusMicrosoft is unlikely to die any time soon, so wouldn't it be better to try and work with them and find some common ground than just outright hate? :pJan 15 10:50
oiaohmAdus:  Open Source people are just sick of MS half promises.Jan 15 10:50
oiaohmIe Promise not to attack Open source.  Then go and attack companies that fund Open source development for working with Open source.Jan 15 10:51
tessier__schestowitz: Nameserver problems it seems....Jan 15 10:51
Adusoiaohm: But is that not a problem with the law? Not Microsoft. I'm not saying Microsoft are whiter than white, and yes, they've broken law. But the vast majority if what they do is totally legitimate and within the lawJan 15 10:52
schestowitztessier__: heyJan 15 10:52
Adusshould not be campaigning for law changesJan 15 10:52
oiaohmIf Microsoft came to a table with a true promise that is not set up to expire in future and be a possiable trap it would be a sign that Microsoft is at long last treating Open source people with some respect.Jan 15 10:52
cubezzzjust have things so Microsoft is less than 50 percent of the OS market, I could live with thatJan 15 10:52
Adusrather than attacking ms?Jan 15 10:52
schestowitztessier__: thanksJan 15 10:52
cubezzzhopefully things will go that wayJan 15 10:52 tooJan 15 10:52
oiaohmAdus:  Its a respect issue.Jan 15 10:52
tessier__I seeJan 15 10:52
oiaohmOpen Source people fear MS lack of respect to them.  AdusJan 15 10:53
oiaohmBased on every time MS has backstabed deals.  AdusJan 15 10:53
Adusoiaohm: Quite frankly, it's business. Every other industry relentlessly pursues competition.Jan 15 10:53
schestowitzHehe.Jan 15 10:53
AdusIf the law allows it, why wouldn't MS do it?Jan 15 10:53
schestowitzAdus: you too?Jan 15 10:53
oiaohmNot true AdusJan 15 10:53
schestowitzAre all Microsoft employees justifying breaking the law this way?Jan 15 10:53
cubezzzThey should have just been broken up like AT&TJan 15 10:53
Adusschestowitz: I am not justifying breaking the law, I just said that.Jan 15 10:54
oiaohmCisco system,  IBM and many others treat Open source with respect.  AdusJan 15 10:54
Adus"[10:50:59] <Adus> oiaohm: But is that not a problem with the law? Not Microsoft. I'm not saying Microsoft are whiter than white, and yes, they've broken law. But the vast majority if what they do is totally legitimate and within the law"Jan 15 10:54
schestowitz"Hey, we bribe them... cause it's just competition... and we fund wars too (SCO)...."Jan 15 10:54
oiaohmWhen they make deals with Open source there is no double cross.  AdusJan 15 10:54
oiaohmWith in the law does not equal morally right AdusJan 15 10:54
cubezzzthere was a good way to deal with Microsoft and they muffed it upJan 15 10:54
Adusoiaohm: Maybe not, but that's not the point.Jan 15 10:55
oiaohmEvery other major company in the computer world can do deals with open source in a way that is not back stabbing.  AdusJan 15 10:55
oiaohmSo why should MS get special treatment Adus?Jan 15 10:55
cubezzzexcept SCO of courseJan 15 10:55
cubezzzthere's no good faith thereJan 15 10:56
AdusBut the fact is, those companies all have something to gain. Microsoft perceive that they have very little to gain from it.Jan 15 10:56
oiaohmNot all cases Adus.Jan 15 10:56
oiaohmSo you are saying that MS is greedy and will never do what is good for the common good.  Yep exacty why they are hated.Jan 15 10:57
AdusThere is always some reason for every action a company takes. Microsoft didn't make the Visual Studio Express editions out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it to get people using MS dev tools, which they would then take into teh workplace.Jan 15 10:57
Adus:pJan 15 10:57
schestowitztessier__: thanks!!Jan 15 10:57
Aduswho would then license VS pro, and use .NET etcJan 15 10:57
tessier__Actually, seems like something ran the proxy machine out of memory and varnish died. Ugh.Jan 15 10:57
tessier__Bad week. Seems like everything is having really weird problems.Jan 15 10:57
tessier__I was just fixing another mail server which for some reason went nuts.Jan 15 10:58
oiaohmAdus: Open source had less issues with MS when MS had made no deals with open source.  So open source just treated them like competention.Jan 15 10:58
schestowitzNothing is as bad as in HaitiJan 15 10:58
AdusAnyway, meeting time for meJan 15 10:58
AdusI'll be back in a bit :0Jan 15 10:58
oiaohmThe time expiring deals to make them selves look good in the press has pissed them off.  AdusJan 15 10:58
oiaohmIe we are good for open source but the deal is temp.  Either do a proper deal or not at all.Jan 15 10:59
cubezzzThese arguments never endJan 15 10:59
schestowitzIt's quite telling when Microsoft employees go to forums that are critical of Microsoft. It can be interpreted in all sorts of ways.Jan 15 10:59
schestowitzIt's OK to welcome discussion and interesting to see how Microsoft indoctrinates staff :-)Jan 15 11:00
cubezzzthere's always someone worse off than us schestowitzJan 15 11:00
oiaohmMS personal just don't get it.  If you want press for being good for open source and open source not hating you.  Do non expiring deals.Jan 15 11:00
schestowitzThe funniest I've heard from a Microsoft employee is that Bong [sic] is beating Google or something.... it's actually 3% and decliningJan 15 11:00
oiaohmApples deal with freetype over font rendering over font rendering was nasty but apple did not get tared and feathered with it due to open source knowning where they stand.Jan 15 11:01
oiaohmAgreement freetype could not use the built in font hinting without a patent licence in countries where the patent licence applied.Jan 15 11:01
schestowitzApple is still a niche marketJan 15 11:01
schestowitzI'm not too worried about Apple, although in the UK they are a barrier to Linux adoptiobnJan 15 11:02
oiaohmIt generated no major annoyance from the open source world.Jan 15 11:02
oiaohmMajor thing open source wants is 100 percent sure of state for ever.Jan 15 11:02
oiaohmAlso MS people forget Open Source is once burnt and twice shy.Jan 15 11:03
oiaohmWe got burnt by patents on MP3.Jan 15 11:03
cubezzzI think it's better to say FOSS rather than Open SourceJan 15 11:03
oiaohmOpen Source includes the comericals that do development for profit cubezzzJan 15 11:04
oiaohmThat don't class themselves as FOSSJan 15 11:04
cubezzzyes, and FOSS includes both groupsJan 15 11:04
cubezzzokJan 15 11:04
cubezzzor not :)Jan 15 11:05
cubezzzI'm just trying to think of an all-inclusive term Jan 15 11:05
oiaohmOpen Source is just the wrapper that for sure includes everyone.Jan 15 11:05
schestowitz[11:04] <oiaohm> Open Source includes the comericals that do development for profit cubezzzJan 15 11:05
schestowitzNoJan 15 11:05
DaemonFCoiaohm: Does ClamWin actually work well enough to bother with?Jan 15 11:06
schestowitzThat's now the distinguishing factorJan 15 11:06
schestowitzoiaohm: open source is not justa  wrapperJan 15 11:06
schestowitzBut words lost meaning over time if abusedJan 15 11:06
cubezzzI think of myself as a FOSS person rather than an "Open Source" personJan 15 11:07
cubezzzsorry about picking nits :)Jan 15 11:07
schestowitzThe "No Fly" List Includes an 8-Year Old Boy 15 11:07
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oiaohmDaemonFC: Clamav engine in clean ups of machines can be useful as most anti-anti-viruses don't target it.  DaemonFCJan 15 11:07
tessier__The Baby BomberJan 15 11:07
schestowitzThe Transportation Security Administration, under scrutiny after last month’s bombing attempt, has on its Web site a “mythbuster” that tries to reassure the public.Jan 15 11:08
oiaohmIe DaemonFC it depends what you are doing if clamwin or clamav is any use.Jan 15 11:08
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*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 15 11:08
schestowitzHe looks sooooo scaryJan 15 11:08
*DaemonFC ( has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 11:08
schestowitzThose tinted glasses, they say he's an undercover agentJan 15 11:09
oiaohm  I know wrapper is the wrong word I should have used criteria.Jan 15 11:10
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schestowitz"My fear—for Google and for us—is that the reason they know it's the Chinese government behind these attacks is because Google gave them the key." —Douglas Rushkoff, in the Daily Beast. 15 11:10
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oiaohm  TPM systems like used in TIVO and the like don't fit into Free Software DefinitionJan 15 11:11
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oiaohmFOSS cuts out a percentage of Open Source developers for devices.   Even that the source code to the devices is open but you cannot alter the firmware yourself.Jan 15 11:12
DaemonFCMoonlight 2.0 still fails to run the Stargate Universe photosynth siteJan 15 11:13
schestowitzphotosynth has lInus rootsJan 15 11:15
schestowitzIt ran on UbuntuJan 15 11:15
schestowitzThen Microsoft ruined itJan 15 11:15
schestowitzAs it always does when buying s/tJan 15 11:15
DaemonFCthey kept raving about how only Silverlight could do this and all thatJan 15 11:15
DaemonFCthe SGU guys, like the directorJan 15 11:16
AdusBackJan 15 11:17
schestowitzSilver Lie failedJan 15 11:17
DaemonFCwhich I'm not all that technical, but I'm sure they could have put together something just as good with FlashJan 15 11:17
schestowitzMany years later and several version it's still scarceJan 15 11:17
AdusWas a quick meeting, no further plans for world domination yet.Jan 15 11:17
schestowitzThey were hoping to make Flash more extinctJan 15 11:17
schestowitzAnd Soapbox diesJan 15 11:17
DaemonFCschestowitz: It's odd that Silverlight hasn't caught onJan 15 11:17
schestowitzAdus: you do gaming for Microsoft, that's rather benignJan 15 11:17
DaemonFCI mean what with MS supporting the only two platforms a lot of web developers care aboutJan 15 11:17
DaemonFCthe fact that they weren't even charging licensingJan 15 11:18
Adusschestowitz: So, Xbox LIVE! Isn't evil? :pJan 15 11:18
schestowitzThey try to use Miguel/Novell to promote it nowJan 15 11:18
DaemonFCI mean I'm not saying that it catching on would be good for you and me, I'm saying I'm surprised that it did not Jan 15 11:18
schestowitzNothing else has workedJan 15 11:18
schestowitzSo in mid-2007 they decided to no longer totally block LinuxJan 15 11:18
schestowitzThey gave it a Trijan patent horse insteadJan 15 11:19
schestowitzAdus: as a Linux user, I'm indifferent to itJan 15 11:19
schestowitzIt doesn't actually attack my preferencesJan 15 11:19
DaemonFCIf they want it to spread, they should irrevocably give a free license and patent indemnity to anyone who wants to implement Silverlight or .NetJan 15 11:19
DaemonFCthey'd never do that thoughJan 15 11:19
schestowitzIt also helped drain Microsoft's coffers, so the more, the merrierJan 15 11:19
schestowitzThere might not be a "next" XboxJan 15 11:19
AdusThere will be.Jan 15 11:20
schestowitzAsk DaemonFCJan 15 11:20
oiaohmThat is making out that MS wants compadiblity with everyone else DaemonFCJan 15 11:20
DaemonFCXBOX 360 has bloodied them worse than the damned PS3 and the Wii put togetherJan 15 11:20
Adusbecause overall schestowitz, IEB make money.Jan 15 11:20
schestowitzArticles from the Guardian and another UK magazine say there might not beJan 15 11:20
schestowitzAdus: Microsoft loses money on these things and it has not much money leftJan 15 11:20
schestowitzMicrosoft is in deflation stage, firing and reducing budgetsJan 15 11:21
DaemonFCMicrosoft has been running at a lott nearly every month a Halo game hasn't come outJan 15 11:21
schestowitzI have no doubt in my mind you don't know this yetJan 15 11:21
DaemonFCwhy do you think they released ODST so fat?Jan 15 11:21
DaemonFC*lossJan 15 11:21
Adusschestowitz: Overall, IEB make money.Jan 15 11:21
DaemonFC*fastJan 15 11:21
DaemonFC:PJan 15 11:21
oiaohmBig thing is one after XBOX 360 will have to compete with PC's embed in screens.Jan 15 11:21
DaemonFCThe XBOX is like this cursed thing they can't put down Adus Jan 15 11:21
DaemonFCit's hilarious Jan 15 11:22
schestowitzoiaohm: there's Android in TVs nowJan 15 11:22
AdusDaemonFC: I'm sorry, but that's not true. You really have no idea what you're talking about :)Jan 15 11:22
schestowitzCES 2010 showed someJan 15 11:22
oiaohmMain reason a PC TV setup.  is cheaper than most digital tv recorders + tv.Jan 15 11:22
schestowitzAdus: you do. Microsoft tells you 100% ruth.Jan 15 11:22
schestowitz*truthJan 15 11:22
oiaohmThen with items like Linux's embeding in screens AdusJan 15 11:22
DaemonFClook how many millions of dollars they've spent trying to keep it going beyond not making a profitJan 15 11:22
schestowitzMicrosoft is the Ministry of Truth.Jan 15 11:22
DaemonFCthat is called a lossJan 15 11:22
oiaohmThe idea of a independant box for gaming could become a thing of the past AdusJan 15 11:22
AdusNo one denies the Xbox itself has lost money, but overall IEB makes money.Jan 15 11:23
schestowitzGames will be fine, AdusJan 15 11:23
DaemonFCthey may not discontinue it, they might release a third XBOXJan 15 11:23
schestowitzWithout Xbox you can build for another platformJan 15 11:23
DaemonFCbut it's not because they're making a fortuneJan 15 11:23
schestowitzJust get rid of the DXJan 15 11:23
oiaohmLets look at the consoles truthfully.Jan 15 11:23
schestowitzMicrosoft uses Xbox to fight OpenGLJan 15 11:23
DaemonFCit's because they're trying to fight Sony and Nintendo with area denial tacticsJan 15 11:23
DaemonFCno matter the priceJan 15 11:23
oiaohmWhat did the first ones have in common with a PC trully what did the first console have in common.Jan 15 11:23
schestowitzThat's why it's willing to lose so much, among other reasonsJan 15 11:23
Adusand because overall it makes money :pJan 15 11:24
DaemonFCschestowitz: You remember Zap Brannigan from Futurama right?Jan 15 11:24
AdusThrough XBL and MGS.Jan 15 11:24
oiaohmThen you look at common day consoles.  Jan 15 11:24
schestowitz"They [Microsoft] have the deepest of pockets, unlimited  ambition, and they are willing to lose money for years and years just to make sure that you don't make any money, either. And they are mean, REALLY mean." -Robert X. CringelyJan 15 11:24
schestowitzAdus: it doesn'tJan 15 11:24
DaemonFCremember him explaining how he defeated the enemy army of robots by sending in his soldiers to be killedJan 15 11:24
DaemonFCtil the preset kill limit was reachedJan 15 11:24
schestowitzIt has too much to make up forJan 15 11:24
oiaohmAdus:  serounly what is the difference between a Xbox 360 or a PC doing screen really other than TPM locking users out of using what ever they like.  Jan 15 11:25
DaemonFCthat's what XBOX reminds me ofJan 15 11:25
DaemonFCMicrosoft sees every XBOX that's sold as one PS3 or Wii that didn'tJan 15 11:25
oiaohmIe the distance between PC and Console has closed up far too much.Jan 15 11:25
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DaemonFCthat's the chips they're playing Jan 15 11:26
schestowitzconsoles are computersJan 15 11:26
schestowitzPhones are INCREASINGLY computersJan 15 11:26
AdusAnyway, what you guys say is not only factually inaccurate, it's plain wrong. There will be another XboxJan 15 11:26
schestowitzThey even run gamesJan 15 11:26
Adusand before that, we have NatalJan 15 11:26
schestowitzMicrosoft can't allow too many non-Microsoft computers out thereJan 15 11:26
DaemonFCthe Wii ripoff?Jan 15 11:26
schestowitzBut it's losing this battleJan 15 11:26
DaemonFCthat's all Microsoft even doesJan 15 11:26
oiaohmEven if there is AdusJan 15 11:26
schestowitzANdroid and Apple have over 100,000 apps alreadyJan 15 11:26
DaemonFCYou want to know what will be in a Microsoft product in 3-5 years, look at their competitors products nowJan 15 11:27
oiaohmHow are you going to compete if TV's build gaming in and other features like a Xbox.  AdusJan 15 11:27
schestowitzMicrosoft is a minority among computersJan 15 11:27
schestowitzBeen for a long timeJan 15 11:27
schestowitz4 billion embedded devices in 2006Jan 15 11:27
DaemonFCthe only things that end up in a Microsoft product are what their competition already did several years agoJan 15 11:27
schestowitzAnd make smarter over timeJan 15 11:27
Adusoiaohm: But they are not chasing the same market Microsoft and Sony are.Jan 15 11:27
DaemonFCthere's nothing original behind any of itJan 15 11:27
schestowitzWeb browsing, office suites, etc.Jan 15 11:27
oiaohmAndroid in TV's means Android games could be in TV's.Jan 15 11:27
schestowitzLike EVOJan 15 11:28
Adusoiaohm: But they are not going after the same market the Xbox 360 and PS3 do :pJan 15 11:28
oiaohmAdus: what makes you 100 percent sure they will not go after the same market.Jan 15 11:28
DaemonFCAdus: The only originality Microsoft has is in trying to find new ways to scalp youJan 15 11:28
Adusoiaohm: because it costs an insane amount of money, and no one is going to enter the console war now :pJan 15 11:28
DaemonFCtheir products are all inferior clones of something elseJan 15 11:28
oiaohmHigh end tv's ship with Wii's and PS3 to sell them to customers AdusJan 15 11:28
schestowitzPS3 is stronger anywayJan 15 11:28
schestowitzMicrosoft ripped Sony offJan 15 11:28
schestowitzSony and IBM worked on the CellJan 15 11:28
oiaohmAdus: cost is low to enter the console war.  Jan 15 11:28
schestowitzMicrosoft clang on to coattailsJan 15 11:29
Adusschestowitz: Since when? We have a larger install base and a better game-to-consoel ratio than SonyJan 15 11:29
schestowitzThen 'stole' their workJan 15 11:29
DaemonFCMicrosoft's inability to come up with anything new goes all the way back to buying QDOS, the CP/M86 ripoffJan 15 11:29
AdusHow can you claim the PS3 is stronger? :pJan 15 11:29
schestowitzIt was in the WSJ IIRCJan 15 11:29
oiaohmThat is if your console is standard internally AdusJan 15 11:29
schestowitzPS3 also doesn't cook wellJan 15 11:29
Adusoiaohm: But no one wants to build anything like that the PS3 or Xbox 360. It does cost a lot of money and it's not worth it.Jan 15 11:29
schestowitzIt stays functionalJan 15 11:30
DaemonFCWindows 7 is like a bad Mac ripoff complete with a back catalog of 300,000 pieces of malwareJan 15 11:30
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 11:30
schestowitzMicrosoft imitates things, poorly, as usualJan 15 11:30
oiaohmAdus: what do you think google native code in webbrower combind with opengl support is about.  Jan 15 11:30
schestowitzDaemonFC: not 2 million+?Jan 15 11:30
DaemonFCschestowitz: Well, you have to account for the fact that older viruses, like all compiled programs, eventually won't run on the new version of WindowsJan 15 11:31
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] I really like thunderbird 3.0's tabbed browsing and search functionalityJan 15 11:31
Adusoiaohm: We'll see ;). The fact of the matter is, Wii has pretty much raped the competition in this cycle. but Microsoft and Sony are in a strong position to take advantage of the tail-out of this generation and entering the next generationJan 15 11:31
oiaohmIt costs a lot of money to build a lock down box from non standard parts AdusJan 15 11:31
DaemonFC*shrugs*Jan 15 11:31
Adusdespite what you think you knowJan 15 11:31
Adusbecause I do know :pJan 15 11:31
oiaohmAdus:  forget about non standard parts and the price to build something like a PS3 or a Xbox360 is way cheeper.Jan 15 11:31
oiaohmAdus: You are making the same mistake you made with the wii.Jan 15 11:32
oiaohmWii was cheep and fun.  So it won.Jan 15 11:32
oiaohmIt not powerful AdusJan 15 11:32
DaemonFCAdus: I don't think that Microsoft will have a reliable console. Number 1: They have Foxconn building them. Number 2: They tell Foxconn to cut corners.Jan 15 11:33
oiaohmConsole battle does not need to be a something supper powerful to cause the console makers lot of problems.Jan 15 11:33
oiaohmIf TV's end up with lots of cheap games that are fun why will people waste money on consoles.Jan 15 11:33
oiaohmThat is the question you have to answer AdusJan 15 11:34
DaemonFCthat ought to be alarming on either count aloneJan 15 11:34
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Adusoiaohm: What's your point? So the Wii won, but it targets a different market to the PS3 and 360.Jan 15 11:35
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DaemonFCSo? oiaohm, it's like saying you're necessarily going to love the car with the godawful right whose gas tank blows up regularlyJan 15 11:35
Adusa market Microsoft are unlikely to penetrate with any great success.Jan 15 11:35
DaemonFCto say that XBOX is better than Wii, that isJan 15 11:35
DaemonFCit might have a great engineJan 15 11:35
DaemonFCbut the ride is godawful and they blow up regularlyJan 15 11:35
Adusoiaohm: But you're missing the point, to get the market we have, it does. Jan 15 11:35
AdusBecause core gamers are not satisfied with "fun games" :pJan 15 11:35
DaemonFCAdus: XBOX 360 lasts about 6 months on average before you have to send it in over the ring of deathJan 15 11:35
Adusand if you truly believe there is no difference in those markets, you don't know much about the games industry.Jan 15 11:35
DaemonFCI did it 7 times and sole my 8th one right after it got backJan 15 11:35
DaemonFCI want nothing more to do with Microsoft game consolesJan 15 11:35
DaemonFCeverJan 15 11:35
AdusI've had one 360 fail since it came out.Jan 15 11:35
DaemonFCI will buy another XBOX over my rotting corpseJan 15 11:35
oiaohmAdus: hard core gamers are only a small percentage of the market.Jan 15 11:35
AdusThen don't.Jan 15 11:36
DaemonFCthe damned things aren't worth a warm pitcher of pissJan 15 11:36
Adusoiaohm: I said "core gamers" not hardcore gamers :pJan 15 11:36
oiaohmAdus:  Xbox's are also used a media extendors no point of the TV can do it.Jan 15 11:36
Adusoiaohm: it's clear to me that you have no real grasp on how the games industry actuall works.Jan 15 11:36
Adusactually*Jan 15 11:36
DaemonFCI bet anyone $1,000 that the next thing you see Microsoft do, after they have the Wii ripodd sensor and motion controller, is start releasing exercise discs with a Microsoft not-a-balance-board(R)Jan 15 11:37
DaemonFC*ripoffJan 15 11:37
AdusYou also evidently don't understand what Natal is.Jan 15 11:37
DaemonFCschestowitz: Are you ready to Ballmercize?Jan 15 11:37
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 11:37
cubezzzno :)Jan 15 11:37
oiaohmDefine of hard core games are different AdusJan 15 11:38
DaemonFChave the sweat just..................... gathering under your armpits evenJan 15 11:38
oiaohmMost likely what you call core games are what I call hard core gamers.Jan 15 11:38
Adusoiaohm: Core gamers are not hardcore gamers.Jan 15 11:38
DaemonFCIt's not over til the cardiologist declares you legally deadJan 15 11:38
DaemonFC:PJan 15 11:38
AdusYou should do some research into the markets, and then you might understand why the Xbox and PS3 exist.Jan 15 11:38
DaemonFCschestowitz: Grab a Ballmerboard and get ready to get rippedJan 15 11:39
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 11:39
DaemonFCthey should put an exercise on the disc called the Ballmer-bustersJan 15 11:39
AdusDaemonFC: I just told you, you evidently don't understand what natal is if you forsee addons like that.Jan 15 11:39
oiaohmWhat define of Core Gamers you are using.Jan 15 11:39
Adusoiaohm: I just told you, get your hands on some actual market research and then come back to me.Jan 15 11:40
*schestowitz looks for contextJan 15 11:40
oiaohmI do understand why Xbox and PS3 exist.Jan 15 11:40
schestowitz[11:31] <DaemonFC> schestowitz: Well, you have to account for the fact that older viruses, like all compiled programs, eventually won't run on the new version of WindowsJan 15 11:40
schestowitzThey say 80% still worksJan 15 11:40
DaemonFCschestowitz: Get on the Ballmerboard and jump up and down screamingJan 15 11:41
oiaohmThe games in on those console appeal to different gaming segments.Jan 15 11:41
schestowitzAn insecurity vendor said so, IIRCJan 15 11:41
DaemonFCthat's a good exerciseJan 15 11:41
schestowitzMaybe 90%Jan 15 11:41
schestowitzAnd the 2ml barrier was passed some months backJan 15 11:41
AdusYet you don't seem to grasp that they will continue to exist because your embedded devices won't chase that market oiaohm, because they are incapable of doing so.Jan 15 11:41
oiaohmLot of the console get got as gifts and the like by people so leading to them become waht you most likely call core gamers.Jan 15 11:42
DaemonFCI'd kind of like to have one of those Macbook Pros actually, if I could get any computer I wanted for freeJan 15 11:42
DaemonFCit might end up running LinuxJan 15 11:42
oiaohmYou cycle of source of gamers could be broken AdusJan 15 11:42
Adusoiaohm: That's highly unlikely, and you know it. There will always be people who want more "serious" games.Jan 15 11:42
AdusThe games market is usually split into 8 segments.Jan 15 11:42
DaemonFCAdus: Shoot at the same Nazi in the same video game on a new systemJan 15 11:43
DaemonFCad infinitumJan 15 11:43
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 11:43
schestowitz"Serious" = gore?Jan 15 11:43
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AdusNo, not neccesarily.Jan 15 11:43
Adusand each segment tends to describe 3 key audience areas.Jan 15 11:43
DaemonFCschestowitz: DOOMJan 15 11:43
oiaohmAnd each of those 8 segments can exist on one platform nothing says they cannot AdusJan 15 11:43
DaemonFCalways popularJan 15 11:43
schestowitzDaemonFC: DOOM is goodJan 15 11:43
schestowitzIt's fun to play, I still have itJan 15 11:43
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DaemonFCschestowitz: I have them allJan 15 11:44
DaemonFC:DJan 15 11:44
Adusoiaohm: Of course not, but the reality of an embedded standard device tapping those markets is slim to non-existant, and I know you know that.Jan 15 11:44
schestowitzIt is also nostalgicJan 15 11:44
DaemonFCsome I had to transfer to CD when my new computer had not floppy driveJan 15 11:44
DaemonFCOh, I was pissedJan 15 11:44
schestowitzAdus: ahahahaJan 15 11:44
oiaohmAdus:  yes.  its like saying a tv can only play to one movie type fan. Jan 15 11:44
schestowitzSilm to non-existent?Jan 15 11:44
schestowitzAsk ARM how they sold 10 billion processors by 2008Jan 15 11:45
oiaohmAdus:  what do you mean non existant.Jan 15 11:45
DaemonFCAdus: There's MadworldJan 15 11:45
AdusDaemonFC: A game which failed both critically and commercially.Jan 15 11:45
DaemonFC"Heh heh heh....asshole in a can!!!"Jan 15 11:45
DaemonFCheheJan 15 11:45
AdusExcelletn example.Jan 15 11:45
DaemonFCstill a good gameJan 15 11:45
oiaohmAdus: what market does the EVO target. Jan 15 11:45
AdusYou need to look at games likeJan 15 11:45
schestowitzI haven't heard from them in a whileJan 15 11:45
AdusHalo, Fable, Demon Souls, Metal Gear Solid etcJan 15 11:46
AdusThe first party titles.Jan 15 11:46
oiaohmAll AdusJan 15 11:46
oiaohmJust not with great titles.Jan 15 11:46
DaemonFCAdus: If you can't beat em up, shoot em up, blow em up, or chainsaw them, it's not a gameJan 15 11:46
DaemonFCright? :)Jan 15 11:46
Adusand the more popular Acti and EA games.Jan 15 11:46
oiaohmThe standard coming are not just locked to embeded devices AdusJan 15 11:47
schestowitzI love Kong on Super NintendoJan 15 11:47
schestowitzIt was cuteJan 15 11:47
oiaohmI remember when PC was king of gaming because you could play basically all classes of games.Jan 15 11:48
oiaohmHistory repeats it self.Jan 15 11:48
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schestowitz"The latest? The CIO of the state of California, Teri Takai, last week said in a policy letter that using open-source software has been sanctioned as "acceptable practice." Shocking, right? Open-source is typically cheaper than licensed software, and the Golden State faces a multibillion-dollar fiscal crisis. I'll be surprised if more states don't follow California's lead."Jan 15 11:48
Adusoiaohm: Like I say, we'll see. I think you far over-estimate the potential of any standard platform and all of the research backs me up.Jan 15 11:48
AdusNot you.Jan 15 11:48
schestowitzStudies are like arseholesJan 15 11:48
schestowitzYou have as many of them as peopleJan 15 11:48
schestowitzAnd Microsoft pays for theseJan 15 11:49
oiaohmHistory backs me up.Jan 15 11:49
oiaohmAdus:  You need to answer how PC got the top gaming system for a while.Jan 15 11:49
schestowitzThere is resarch to back up anythingJan 15 11:49
schestowitzPay meJan 15 11:49
schestowitzI'll prove what you need :-)Jan 15 11:49
schestowitz"Research........."Jan 15 11:49
Adusschestowitz: Studies are what have allowed Microsoft to succeed so much that you hate them.Jan 15 11:49
oiaohmto see the threat you have created sel.Jan 15 11:49
oiaohmself.Jan 15 11:49
schestowitzAdus: fake studiesJan 15 11:49
schestowitzThey corrupted analystsJan 15 11:49
schestowitzIncluding to attack LinuxJan 15 11:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post | I Wonder... | The Digital Prism 15 11:50
phIRCe-localTitle: I Wonder... | The Digital Prism .::. Size~: 14.46 KBJan 15 11:50
Adusschestowitz: Which still allowed them to make insane amounts of cashJan 15 11:50
schestowitzMicrosoft gained caused it lacked ethicsJan 15 11:50
Adusoiaohm: The PC is a dying platform for games and has been for some time.Jan 15 11:50
oiaohmYour research and studies have created hole in market just waiting to be filled.  AdusJan 15 11:50
oiaohmI did not say the PC was not a dying platform.Jan 15 11:50
schestowitzWhen someone goes for the balls, he/she wins the rightJan 15 11:50
schestowitzAnd since the lawmakers were weak, Microsoft got away with a lot of criminal acitivityJan 15 11:50
schestowitzThat's not competition, throughJan 15 11:50
schestowitz*thoughJan 15 11:50
oiaohmbut I said you need to study how the PC got to be top gaming platform for a while.  AdusJan 15 11:50
schestowitz[11:50] <Adus> schestowitz: Which still allowed them to make insane amounts of cashJan 15 11:51
schestowitzAhJan 15 11:51
schestowitzThat makes it OK thenJan 15 11:51
oiaohmYou will see that you are repeating the same events that lead to the rise of the PC as an gaming platform AdusJan 15 11:51
AdusWell, you can't have it both ways schestowitz. Either this "fake" research as you call it, hinders the company and causes profits to fall or allows them to make money.Jan 15 11:51
oiaohmSega Nintendo...  All split themselves off into indepentant markets.Jan 15 11:51
oiaohmSo leaving a huge gap for something unified.Jan 15 11:51
oiaohmHistory repeats AdusJan 15 11:52
Adusoiaohm: Consumers don't want the hassle of working out whether something is compatible etc.Jan 15 11:52
AdusPC has never been as big as the current generation of consolesJan 15 11:52
Adusnot even close.Jan 15 11:52
AdusThe market is not the same as it was 10 years agoJan 15 11:52
oiaohmAbout time you become aware of it.  Studies also told Sega and Nintendo that specialisation to case the same thing.Jan 15 11:52
oiaohmOf course PC is too expensive these days compared to consoles.  AdusJan 15 11:52
Adusand as I understand it, PC hardware prices are likely to rise this year.Jan 15 11:53
AdusDue to parts shortages.Jan 15 11:53
oiaohmI have not said other items did not screw up PC domination.Jan 15 11:53
oiaohmIts not where the PC is now.Jan 15 11:53
oiaohmIt why it got to where it did in history.Jan 15 11:53
oiaohmAnd what lead up to it.Jan 15 11:53
oiaohmPC is not the threat this time around AdusJan 15 11:53
oiaohmHistory never normally puts the same dog back on top.Jan 15 11:54
oiaohmThe history of the PC warns you what is coming.Jan 15 11:54
Adusoiaohm: I think you're missing the point. I agree with you, "casual" games are going to be huge and it's an area we at Microsoft Game Studios are investing heavily in. *However* there will always be a place for the core platforms, PC and "Next-Gen" Consoles.Jan 15 11:54
oiaohmSame ideas of market segmentation causes something to happen.  AdusJan 15 11:54
oiaohmCasual games most likely end up on the TV.Jan 15 11:55
Adusoiaohm: Oh, I agree.Jan 15 11:55
oiaohmWere Microsoft game studioes stuff will not work.Jan 15 11:55
AdusI don't disagree with your suggestion about the market changing. But I think (and as I say, most analysts agree) that it will come in the form of a bigger market.Jan 15 11:55
AdusThere will still be a core marketJan 15 11:55
oiaohmLot less of the Casuals will turn into core.Jan 15 11:56
AdusWhich is the market the Xbox 360 caters to, and I imagine will continue to do so into the next generation.Jan 15 11:56
Adusoiaohm: A smaller percentage, yes, but there will be more of them.Jan 15 11:56
oiaohmSince they did not need a console to be casual.Jan 15 11:56
oiaohmdepend how good the embed ends up will depend how much room the Xbox 360 and it future forms have.Jan 15 11:57
AdusThe rise in casual games, mostly down to Apple and Nintendo has actually been a good thing for Sony and MS, because more people than ever before are turning to core gamingJan 15 11:57
Adusmaybe a smaller chunk of the marketJan 15 11:57
schestowitzMicrosoft Gavin does an echo-article for Bach.... 15 11:57
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux Today - Microsoft predicts Linux will fail mobile 'quality' test .::. Size~: 79.51 KBJan 15 11:57
Adusbut it's a much bigger market than 10 years agoJan 15 11:57
oiaohmYou are sounding a lot like sega before it floped AdusJan 15 11:57
oiaohmThe market will grow yes.  But the question is will you be able to hold market.Jan 15 11:58
oiaohmHistory warns you about the changes better than asking people questions AdusJan 15 11:58
Adusoiaohm: Currently our market is still growing month-on-month and year-on-year. Until that stops, you can expect people to continue investing in those markets.Jan 15 11:58
oiaohmI am not expecting it to stop exactly soon.Jan 15 12:00
*wallc_ (i=44e6566b@gateway/web/freenode/x-rzporfjaefekcaef) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 12:00
oiaohm3d tv's will require over time fancier built in hardware for doing effects and the like AdusJan 15 12:00
oiaohmBasically all the cards of trouble are already in place if you look around AdusJan 15 12:01
oiaohmThat could turn into very big trouble before the next version of the xbox after the xbox 360 can be released.Jan 15 12:01
oiaohmIe 3d is no longer just the space for the game console.Jan 15 12:02
oiaohmRemember lot more companies due to hard times are trying to put out more powerful combind products to hold market as well.Jan 15 12:03
oiaohmThe warning signs normally appear 3 to 4 years before bad things happen if you are comparing to history.  AdusJan 15 12:04
oiaohmCES domated by ARM chip items the warning signes was on the wall 3 years ago.Jan 15 12:05
AdusWe'll see oiaohm, Jan 15 12:05
oiaohmAt this stage you have time to respond AdusJan 15 12:06
oiaohmLeave it too late to respond correctly and history will just repeat running another under.Jan 15 12:06
Adusoiaohm: I have been listening to people like you for the last 15 years spelling the doom of consoles and Microsoft, I'm still waitingJan 15 12:06
Adus:)Jan 15 12:06
oiaohmTaking on more PC natures saved consoles from the first round of doom.Jan 15 12:07
oiaohmIe correct action saved them.Jan 15 12:07
oiaohmThis time around different set of events have setup.  And a new action will be required to save the console.Jan 15 12:08
oiaohmNow of course Doom is never for sure if the right action is taken.  AdusJan 15 12:08
oiaohmPutting you head in the sand and not seeing what is coming will see loss.Jan 15 12:09
Adusoiaohm: We just have a very different idea of "what is coming", and as far as I know you're far less qualified than the people I work with to knowJan 15 12:09
Adusso forgive me if I think you're talking shitJan 15 12:10
AdusAll the dreaded casual games market has done, and will continue to do soJan 15 12:10
Adusis up the core market numbersJan 15 12:10
Adusa bigger games market is good for everyone.Jan 15 12:10
oiaohmProblem is your lack of history.Jan 15 12:11
Adusas is more competition, so I welcome the new round of consoles and casual games focus, it will be interesting.Jan 15 12:11
Adusoiaohm: The market is *vastly* different than it ever has beenJan 15 12:11
Adusyou fail to recognise that.Jan 15 12:11
oiaohmSega said the same thing about PC's.Jan 15 12:11
AdusSega were always small fish in a big pond.Jan 15 12:11
oiaohmWhat says you are not.Jan 15 12:12
AdusWe have a far bigger market share than Sega ever did, and the install-base for this generation (and last) of consoles is massive.Jan 15 12:12
oiaohmThat just says you are a bigger small fish.Jan 15 12:12
AdusThat's mostly down to Sony with the PS2 and Microsoft with the Xbox.Jan 15 12:12
oiaohmNot that you cannot be destoryed the same ways.Jan 15 12:12
AdusThose consoles redefined console gaming.Jan 15 12:12
oiaohmIssue is gaming could be redefined again.Jan 15 12:13
oiaohmNothing says who a redefine has to come from.Jan 15 12:13
AdusI think you're missing the bigger picture here. The change which is coming is a good thing for everyone, and everyone recognises that it's coming. Don't for one second believe that MS and Sony are naive to it. But we have a market.Jan 15 12:13
AdusThat's not to say we won't enter the casual games market, which I'm sure we will.Jan 15 12:14
AdusBut consoles likethe 360 and PS3 do have a place, and will for at least another generationJan 15 12:14
Adus(7 years ish)Jan 15 12:14
AdusBeyond that? Who knows.Jan 15 12:14
oiaohm7 years is being optimisitic.  I would say 2 to 3 for sure.Jan 15 12:14
oiaohmPast that there is too much moving to predict.Jan 15 12:15
AdusI actually think 7 is about bang on. I expect to see a new round of consoles in 2012 or 2013Jan 15 12:15
Aduslasting through 2017/2018Jan 15 12:15
Adusbeyond that is unknown.Jan 15 12:15
oiaohmNew round of consoles line up with 3d tv's with built in hardware should be a lot more in the market.Jan 15 12:16
oiaohmThat is why I don't say you have 7 years.Jan 15 12:16
AdusI think there will be a lot market shoving and pushing for a few years.Jan 15 12:16
AdusCompanies won't agree on how to do things, there will be competition for a while etc. Jan 15 12:17
*Omar87 (n=quassel@ has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 12:17
oiaohmIe pushing to sort out 3d tv stuff into a standard I am allowing the pushing and shoving for the next 2-3Jan 15 12:17
AdusIt will take longer than that, tehre will be 2 or 3 years of R&D before anything emerges that is concreteJan 15 12:18
oiaohmNow if they get there backsides in order sooner I will be supprised but that would mean problem comes sooner.Jan 15 12:18
Adusthen the competition will start.Jan 15 12:18
DaemonFCoiaohm: Why does AMD say my card can do OpenGL 3.1Jan 15 12:18
DaemonFCwhen glxinfo reports 2.1Jan 15 12:18
DaemonFCthe card supports it but not the driver?Jan 15 12:18
oiaohmDaemonFC: open source mesa is not doing Opengl 3.1 reporting.Jan 15 12:18
oiaohmDaemonFC: a few bits are not suppot by mesa yet as well.Jan 15 12:19
DaemonFCoiaohm: So I shouldn't be kicking myself for buying a OpenGL 2.1 card?Jan 15 12:19
oiaohmIt will become a Opengl 3.1 card in time DaemonFCJan 15 12:19
AdusTry it on Windows 7, I can get you a cheap license through work :pJan 15 12:19
DaemonFCAdus: I already have more Windows licenses than I wantJan 15 12:20
AdusGLC-00181 Win Ult 7 English ROW DVD DVD 7 English Non-specific GBP 19.25 Jan 15 12:20
AdusAww, I even looked it up for you :pJan 15 12:20
oiaohmEven under windows some ATI cards are reporting as opengl 2.1 Adus  Due to drivers not being ready for 3.1  even that card supports all that is need.Jan 15 12:20
Adusoiaohm: yeh, ATIs driver support is shoddy at best.Jan 15 12:21
oiaohmBasically it is kinda platform netural  Adus  ATI shoddy.Jan 15 12:21
DaemonFCI have licenses for Windows 2000 Professional and Advanced Server, XP Home and Pro, XP x64 Pro, Windows Server 2003 and R2 Enterprise, Windows Vista all editions, Windows 7 Home Premium, and Windows Server 2008 and R2 StandardJan 15 12:21
AdusI remember when Vista came out, ATI didn't have OpenGL support until after RTMJan 15 12:22
Adusand at the time I was working on an OpenGL gameJan 15 12:22
Aduswas a frigging nightmareJan 15 12:22
DaemonFCas well as Office 95 through 2007Jan 15 12:22
AdusI get all MS software at cost price.Jan 15 12:22
DaemonFCif you want to go earlier than all this I have licenses for Windows 95, 95 OSR 2.1, 98, MeJan 15 12:22
AdusThat's for friends etc, I get a free digital copy of all MS software for personal use.Jan 15 12:23
DaemonFC3.11 For Workgroups and Office 6Jan 15 12:23
DaemonFCAdus: You like spreading the venereal disease thenJan 15 12:23
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 12:23
DaemonFCit's all freeJan 15 12:23
DaemonFCas much as you wantJan 15 12:23
AdusFor personal use, I get MS software free, yeh.Jan 15 12:24
AdusBut having a discount is a nice benefit if friends want copies etcJan 15 12:24
AdusWindows 7 ULT for £20 is like 10% of RTMJan 15 12:24
AdusRRP*Jan 15 12:24
oiaohmI manage a network for a charity.   I can play with any MS software I want at no charge they have the complete lot.Jan 15 12:24
Adus:pJan 15 12:24
AdusMSDN?Jan 15 12:24
Adusor TechNet?Jan 15 12:24
oiaohmI have technet and MSDN access.Jan 15 12:25
oiaohmAs well as OEM supply.Jan 15 12:25
AdusI never use TechNet, I'm not really sure what it's for. I do have an accountJan 15 12:25
Adusbut I've never needed to go there :pJan 15 12:25
oiaohmTechNet is handy when windows goes nuts.Jan 15 12:25
AdusI use MSDN quite a lot.Jan 15 12:25
AdusI have an MSDN Blog as well :pJan 15 12:25
DaemonFCso it's always incredibly useful, oiaohm ?Jan 15 12:25
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 12:25
oiaohmAll the bug information there and workarounds is DaemonFCJan 15 12:26
oiaohmNot exactly that useful for a developer AdusJan 15 12:26
oiaohmTechNet is more useful to network admins.Jan 15 12:26
AdusYeh, I gathered.Jan 15 12:26
oiaohmMSDN is basicaly worthless to me doing network admin.Jan 15 12:26
AdusI work on large-scale distributed networking systems. Hence the reason Google offered me a job as well.Jan 15 12:27
AdusInteresting area if I don't say so myself.Jan 15 12:27
oiaohmAnd a lot of ways a single typo can turn into the nightmare for hell as well AdusJan 15 12:27
oiaohmLarge-scale distributed I have had to pick of some of the messes when they have gone wrong.Jan 15 12:28
AdusHehe. Yeh, Xbox Live is pretty insaneJan 15 12:28
AdusGenerally we hover around 3 million concurrent usersJan 15 12:28
Adushuge amounts of traffic and processing going onJan 15 12:28
Adusit's a real challenge to handle that load, but interesting and fun.Jan 15 12:29
schestowitz 15 12:29
phIRCe-localTitle: US Video Game Market Shrank 8 Percent in 2009 - PC World .::. Size~: 59.84 KBJan 15 12:29
Adusyeh schestowitz, looks like it will bounce back this year though.Jan 15 12:30
AdusThe UK market grew though :)Jan 15 12:30
Adusthough only by about 1%Jan 15 12:30
oiaohmSo the day Xbox Live majorally screws up send xbox users in your direction?  AdusJan 15 12:30
Adusoiaohm: Hehe, not really. Unless it's after an updateJan 15 12:30
Adusany failure is more likely ot be hardware than softwareJan 15 12:30
Aduswe thoroughly test updates before propping them.Jan 15 12:30
DaemonFC 15 12:31
phIRCe-localTitle: Fedora 12 Installation Guide - .::. Size~: 11.3 KBJan 15 12:31
DaemonFCat least they're honest?Jan 15 12:31
oiaohmAt some point a error will get threw.  That is just sod law at work.  AdusJan 15 12:31
AdusWe have had unexpected downtime, but it's been very rare. Like once in the last 2 years.Jan 15 12:31
AdusThe system is incredibly redundant.Jan 15 12:31
AdusYep oiaohm, that failure was a software one.Jan 15 12:31
AdusWell, a mix of software and human errorJan 15 12:31
oiaohmRemember google packet storm that took now there servers as well.Jan 15 12:32
oiaohmMinor routering errors turned into a major nightmare.Jan 15 12:32
AdusYeh, I don't deny it's possible. As I say, we've had a big bit of downtime in the last 2 years.Jan 15 12:32
AdusBut it is rareJan 15 12:32
oiaohmSo at least I know were to point people if it happens.Jan 15 12:32
AdusGenerally we roll updates out slowly, like over a week.Jan 15 12:33
AdusDo small chunks of boxes each time.Jan 15 12:33
AdusSo if they fall over, the others are still fine.Jan 15 12:33
AdusOnly the major updates require a full shutdown (usually the Fall update once a year)Jan 15 12:33
AdusWhich is usually like 48hour scheduled downtimeJan 15 12:34
oiaohmGoogles was a cascade effect.Jan 15 12:34
oiaohmthat did not show up until too many machines were converted to stop it.Jan 15 12:34
AdusThe problem we had was caused by a firmware update. We have the ability to push certain updates to certain consoles (so users can beta test etc)Jan 15 12:34
oiaohmHistory of failures tell you no matter what you do one day you will be got.Jan 15 12:34
Adusand someone accidently pushed it to everyoneJan 15 12:34
Adusand there was a problemJan 15 12:34
AdusWe have measures in place to stop that happening again nowJan 15 12:35
oiaohmSo lack of a isolated test network.Jan 15 12:35
AdusWe do have an isolated test networkJan 15 12:35
Aduscalled PartnerNet, that's internalJan 15 12:35
DaemonFCoiaohm:  I ended up having to disable the AppArmor policy for Firefox to get Transmission to open torrents as I click them and select "open with"Jan 15 12:35
oiaohmI mean at the time.Jan 15 12:35
DaemonFCfigure I should report that as a bug?Jan 15 12:35
Adusbut we do public beta on the live servers as well (it's not practical to move them to a totally seperate network)Jan 15 12:35
Adusbecause then they wouldn't be able to play with their friends etcJan 15 12:36
oiaohmDaemonFC: that would be a policy error not permitting Transmission to open.Jan 15 12:36
Adusbut that's usually the very last stage, and we roll it out to people slowly.Jan 15 12:36
AdusNot all at once.Jan 15 12:36
AdusSo: Missed software issue + human failure by accidently rolling out = very badJan 15 12:36
AdusBut yeh, can't happen again, as we changed the software that rolls out updatesJan 15 12:36
Adusso you can't accidently submit itJan 15 12:37
AdusYou have to make a real efford to workaround the safeguards, which would get you fired :pJan 15 12:37
Aduseffort*Jan 15 12:37
oiaohmLets just hope the safeguards don't have a programming error themselves.Jan 15 12:37
AdusheheJan 15 12:38
AdusWell, it's been all good since then.Jan 15 12:38
AdusI just really enjoy the challenge of working on such big systems, you have to think about every byte of traffic, every clock cycle etcJan 15 12:38
AdusI find that really interestingJan 15 12:38
oiaohmRemember the openssh issue with debian.  It appeared to work perfectly.Jan 15 12:39
AdusI think I remember reading about that, it's not exactly my area though. I suspect it's more yoursJan 15 12:40
oiaohmJust because something appears to work does not mean it is.   The worst nightmares come from that kind of stuff.Jan 15 12:40
Adusnot exactly largely distributed.Jan 15 12:40
oiaohmBasically the openssh was gennerating like 64 different keys only.Jan 15 12:40
oiaohmYep opps.Jan 15 12:40
AdusYeh, I'm sure I remember hearing about that.Jan 15 12:40
AdusYou'd think they'd have had unit testsJan 15 12:40
Adusto pick that upJan 15 12:40
oiaohmThe complier screwed the unit tests so it passed.Jan 15 12:41
oiaohmIe the source code of openssh was basically fine other than the complier with particular options shooting it to hell.Jan 15 12:41
AdusAh, I love bugs like that.Jan 15 12:42
Adus"But it works fine in the sample".Jan 15 12:42
AdusThen you work out it's down to compiler and linker flagsJan 15 12:42
Adus:pJan 15 12:42
oiaohmIts just the best and largest spreed example of complier caused hell I could think of AdusJan 15 12:43
oiaohmAll debian and releated distributions with openssh installed is one hell of a number of machines effected.Jan 15 12:44
oiaohmThen so other distributions that repackaged debian sourcesJan 15 12:45
Adusdebian serves as the base for quite a few distros doesn't it? Like Ubuntu?Jan 15 12:51
Diablo-D3debian doesnt install openssh by default, though.Jan 15 12:52
Diablo-D3and no, ssh wasnt generating only 64 keysJan 15 12:52
AdusI tried debian once, a long time ago, but there was some reason I didn't like it, can't remember what it was now.Jan 15 12:52
Diablo-D3and debian was using a patch from openssh upstream that had not yet been released in a stable releaseJan 15 12:53
Diablo-D3so thanks for misrepresenting that.Jan 15 12:53
MinceRi know why didn't you like it: it wasn't windows.Jan 15 12:54
Diablo-D3MinceR: dohoohohohohohJan 15 12:54
AdusMinceR: No, I was running Slackware on that box at the time. Jan 15 12:54
Diablo-D3eww slackwareJan 15 12:55
AdusI use OpenBSD for the same purpose now, which is checking my code will compile for platforms with berkeley sockets.Jan 15 12:55
MinceRwell, m$ fanboys will always go for bsd before gnu/linuxJan 15 12:55
MinceRgpl is the devil, isn't it? :>Jan 15 12:55
AdusI just find BSD is easier to set up for what I want.Jan 15 12:55
Diablo-D3debian > slackware by farJan 15 12:55
Omar87Hi allJan 15 12:56
AdusI am talking about years and years ago here. :pJan 15 12:56
Diablo-D3Ive been using debian for a decadeJan 15 12:56
Adusand yes, gpl is the devil MinceR :pJan 15 12:56
Omar87Anyone read that article on RMS selling exceptions of GNU GPL licesnse?Jan 15 12:56
Diablo-D3Omar87: theres technically nothing wrong with thatJan 15 12:57
AdusLGPL I can do, but gpl, not so much.Jan 15 12:57
MinceRAdus: at least your employer's efforts at indoctrination didn't go to waste :>Jan 15 12:57
Diablo-D3as long as it applies to FSF owned software only, and its for a very large sum.Jan 15 12:57
AdusMinceR: I have never really liked the GPL and what it represents.Jan 15 12:57
Diablo-D3btw, this is why I like the term FOSSJan 15 12:57
Diablo-D3it applies to all OSI approved licenses.Jan 15 12:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Nellie Kroes says she made a deal with Microsoft last week, probably against Samba and for software patents: @ 5456secsJan 15 12:58
phIRCe-localTitle: Index of /Kroes100114 .::. Size~: 0.7 KBJan 15 12:58
AdusLGPL is fine :)Jan 15 12:58
Diablo-D3wow, Ive been using debian for 11 years.Jan 15 12:58
*Diablo-D3 started with slink, released march 1999Jan 15 12:58
AdusHaving said that, I have no fundamental dislike of people releasing their code under GPL, it's their code to do with what they wish.Jan 15 12:59
Omar87Diablo-D3: yeah, I know. But wouldn't that open the door for large anti-FOSS corporations like Microsloth?Jan 15 12:59
Diablo-D3Omar87: kind ofJan 15 12:59
MinceRwhere does RMS say that he's selling exceptions to the GPL licensing of software owned by FSF?Jan 15 12:59
AdusI just don't really buy into the ideaology behind it.Jan 15 12:59
Diablo-D3microsoft had a lot of trouple to get an OSI licensed licenseJan 15 12:59
Diablo-D3erJan 15 12:59
Diablo-D3OSI approvedJan 15 12:59
AdusMs-PL is OSI approved isn't it?Jan 15 13:00
Diablo-D3one of them isJan 15 13:00
Diablo-D3I dont particularly like it because of the patent problemsJan 15 13:00
Diablo-D3microsoft has a patent warchest, they intend to use it, ergo, I cant trust microsoft.Jan 15 13:00
AdusWhat patent problems?Jan 15 13:00
MinceRthey also keep issuing threats and FUDJan 15 13:00
Diablo-D3Adus: the license doesn't give anyone using ms-pl code a free passJan 15 13:00
Adus"Patent Grant- Subject to the terms of this license, including the license conditions and limitations in section 3, each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free license under its licensed patents to make, have made, use, sell, offer for sale, import, and/or otherwise dispose of its contribution in the software or derivative works of the contribution in the software."Jan 15 13:01
AdusIt doesn't? :pJan 15 13:01
Diablo-D3hrm, maybe Im thinking of a different oneJan 15 13:01
*Diablo-D3 checks OSIJan 15 13:01
Adus 15 13:01
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft Public License (Ms-PL) | Open Source Initiative .::. Size~: 14.33 KBJan 15 13:01
AdusYou're probably thinking of the research licenseJan 15 13:02
Aduslike the .NET code is released under?Jan 15 13:02
AdusWhich is for reference onlyJan 15 13:02
Omar87Adus: maybe there ain't no ideology behind that. But as long as there evil corporations like Microsloth, the GPL should stay there, and should also stay as strict as possible.Jan 15 13:02
Omar87as long as there *are*..Jan 15 13:02
AdusThere is most definitely an ideaology associated with the GPL,Jan 15 13:03
AdusLGPL less so.Jan 15 13:03
schestowitzI've come to the conclusion that Adus is like these chums: 15 13:04
phIRCe-localTitle: Obama staffer wants cognitive infiltration of 9/11 conspiracy groups |  Raw Story .::. Size~: 45.14 KBJan 15 13:04
schestowitz'Cass Sunstein, a Harvard law professor, co-wrote an academic article entitled "Conspiracy Theories: Causes and Cures," in which he argued that the government should stealthily infiltrate groups that pose alternative theories on historical events via "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine" those groups.'Jan 15 13:04
MinceRi doubt there are a lot of people foolish enough to ask a m$ employee about what ideology is behind FLOSS licenses.Jan 15 13:04
schestowitzHe's here to push the Microsoft lineJan 15 13:05
schestowitzI hardly feel like rebutting the whole nonsenseJan 15 13:05
MinceRit's less productive than consulting /dev/urandom.Jan 15 13:05
Diablo-D3Adus: I might be thinking of that oneJan 15 13:05
Diablo-D3has ms actually used ms-plJan 15 13:05
schestowitzSame old talking points about the licences INJECTED into OSIJan 15 13:05
schestowitzDepite resistanceJan 15 13:05
schestowitzAnd the anti-GPL rhetoricJan 15 13:05
MinceRyes, the same old bullshitJan 15 13:05
schestowitzI'm ok with having Microsoft employees like Adus here, but that's just ruining the atmoshereJan 15 13:05
schestowitzIf we wanted to discuss the Microsoft propaganda, there's Slashdot alreadyJan 15 13:06
Omar87Well, according to my beliefs, "Freedom", in general is something that comes with every human being on Earth, be it a "Technica Freedom", "Social Freedom", or even "Political" or "Ideological" Freedom.Jan 15 13:06
schestowitz /me watches 15 13:06
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- BioTech Chemical Biological Pharmaceutical Weapons .::. Size~: 147.65 KBJan 15 13:06
Diablo-D3schestowitz: actually its not so badJan 15 13:06
Diablo-D3adus at least speaks englishJan 15 13:06
AdusDiablo-D3: Ms-PL is the most open MS license. There's also shared source and research.Jan 15 13:06
AdusMight be more.Jan 15 13:06
MinceRshared source is offtopic. :>Jan 15 13:06
Diablo-D3its better than the other microsoft shills microsoft had in hereJan 15 13:06
schestowitzEMbrace and extendJan 15 13:06
Diablo-D3that just say random shit all dayJan 15 13:06
schestowitzLike in this channel :-)Jan 15 13:07
MinceRand m$ talk about "research" is just marketing bullshit.Jan 15 13:07
Diablo-D3ms does very little research imoJan 15 13:07
schestowitzYesJan 15 13:07
schestowitzCNET wrote about itJan 15 13:07
AdusWell, Ms-PL is actually meant for developers like me Diablo-D3. We're allowed to release internal MS code, as long as it's below 2000 lines and is of genuine value to our customers.Jan 15 13:07
Diablo-D3like they should be researching how to get people like me to use a ms desktop.Jan 15 13:07
schestowitzactually, the original was in ZDNet UKJan 15 13:07
AdusUnder Ms-PL, that's why it was made.Jan 15 13:07
Omar87That's why, when someone like Bill Gates comes for the mere reason of stealing my Freedom, I can't just hand it over to him.Jan 15 13:07
schestowitzIt's mostly PRJan 15 13:07
schestowitzAnd it shoiwsJan 15 13:07
Diablo-D3Adus: so.... a rather useless license. how sad.Jan 15 13:07
oiaohmBut there were other licences offering exactly what MS-PL does AdusJan 15 13:07
Diablo-D3Adus: I can belt out 2000 lines in a day, its not really worth using.Jan 15 13:08
schestowitzBut Microsoft does not control them, oiaohmJan 15 13:08
schestowitzIt does not control how they evolveJan 15 13:08
schestowitzEmbraceJan 15 13:08
schestowitzExtendJan 15 13:08
schestowitzAnd what comes next?Jan 15 13:08
Diablo-D3Adus: microsoft should, honestly, quit writing itself out of the future of computingJan 15 13:08
schestowitzI actually have a post coming on GO COrporaitonJan 15 13:08
schestowitzWe found some more smoking guns in COmesJan 15 13:08
AdusWell, as far as I know there is no clause in Ms-PL that any future licenses are also valid schestowitz, so it's not like they can suddenly change the terms? :pJan 15 13:08
MinceRniceJan 15 13:08
oiaohmOpen Source world has a lot of duplication of licences.   New that are not different to a old get discouraged.  AdusJan 15 13:08
schestowitzMicrosoft embrace & extend againJan 15 13:09
wallc_Yes, I've been transcribing some of the Comes stuff about GOJan 15 13:09
Diablo-D3Adus: oracle, sun, and apple all have secured their place in the new computing industry... microsoft hasntJan 15 13:09
Diablo-D3Adus: I dont particularly want to clean up the mess.Jan 15 13:09
schestowitzwallc_: ah, so it's your fault !!Jan 15 13:09
schestowitzSomeone mailed me with pointers to itJan 15 13:09
schestowitz~pc500Jan 15 13:09
wallc_:)Jan 15 13:09
schestowitz~px500Jan 15 13:09
oiaohmAdus: Ms-PL was basically a branding stunt to make themselves look good.Jan 15 13:09
AdusDiablo-D3: Oh, I don't know. Microsoft is undergoing a huge amount of restructuring currently.Jan 15 13:10
MinceRDiablo-D3: what's crApple doing in the computing industry? :>Jan 15 13:10
Diablo-D3Adus: Ive heard about that.Jan 15 13:10
schestowitzAdus: yes, it's called layoffsJan 15 13:10
wallc_No, I didn't do that one, but I've done others...Jan 15 13:10
Diablo-D3MinceR: spending lots of money and donating lots of code back.Jan 15 13:10
AdusGetting rid of Ballmer wouldn't be a bad thing either, but I didn't say that.Jan 15 13:10
Diablo-D3MinceR: apple is one of the major forces behind the new llvm-based C compilerJan 15 13:10
oiaohmAdus:  Branding stunts and tricks most of the open source world have no time for.Jan 15 13:10
schestowitzThe SVP just leftJan 15 13:10
MinceRDiablo-D3: yeah. spending lots of money on their own proprietary crap, ripping off a lot of code and donating what little bit they have to.Jan 15 13:10
Diablo-D3MinceR: as is intel, amd, and ibm.Jan 15 13:10
schestowitzNobody left to run things...Jan 15 13:10
Diablo-D3MinceR: not at allJan 15 13:11
schestowitzMaybe Bach will quite nextJan 15 13:11
Adusoiaohm: That's not really the true nature of the changes, the "layoffs" were not to reduce headcount, they were to free up headcount in other areas of the companyJan 15 13:11
schestowitzHe failed badlyJan 15 13:11
Diablo-D3MinceR: BSD licensed is completely fine imo.Jan 15 13:11
MinceRmostly lots of money on marketing.Jan 15 13:11
Adusmost of which has already been refilled.Jan 15 13:11
schestowitzMobile, Xbox, SurfaceJan 15 13:11
schestowitzBach is a total loser when it comes to $$Jan 15 13:11
schestowitzHis division bleeds billionsJan 15 13:11
schestowitzANd the online units can't even keep a leadwrJan 15 13:11
AdusI quite like Robbie Bach, he's a decent guy.Jan 15 13:11
schestowitzThey kept quitting in 2006-2009Jan 15 13:11
MinceRDiablo-D3: meanwhile they're pushing software patents and DRM.Jan 15 13:11
Diablo-D3Adus: my opinion on microsoft is basically this: they have things worth saving, they have things that aren't... they keep trying to keep the shit while throwing out the good stuff.Jan 15 13:11
schestowitzDoes the online unit even have a head now? :-)Jan 15 13:11
Diablo-D3MinceR: actuallllyyyy they're not pushing DRMJan 15 13:11
schestowitzAdus: decent?Jan 15 13:11
schestowitzHe attacks LinuxJan 15 13:12
MinceRDiablo-D3: actually they areJan 15 13:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: look at what happened with itunesJan 15 13:12
schestowitzHe should speak about his productJan 15 13:12
wallc_Getting rid of Ballmer?  They'd just replace him with somebody with hair, social skills, and less sweat...the ethics (or lack thereof) wouldn't change though.Jan 15 13:12
schestowitzFor a man in his role...Jan 15 13:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: itunes music is not DRMed because Apple one day stood up and said no.Jan 15 13:12
AdusThere is a head of online, I can't remember who it is though.Jan 15 13:12
schestowitzwallc_: not necessarily in that order :-DJan 15 13:12
MinceRDiablo-D3: only music is DRM-free there, and even on that they pulled their leg a lotJan 15 13:12
wallc_:)Jan 15 13:12
MinceRDiablo-D3: many others did it before them, so they had toJan 15 13:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: many others didnt do it before themJan 15 13:12
schestowitzAdus: depends on the month  of the yearJan 15 13:12
MinceRDiablo-D3: 15 13:12
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 15 13:12
Diablo-D3MinceR: itunes was the first successful music store.Jan 15 13:12
schestowitzNot to worryJan 15 13:12
MinceRwhatJan 15 13:12
schestowitzGoogle is f*ing dead like Microsoft's Ballmer wanted.Jan 15 13:13
schestowitzBong at 3%Jan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3music stores that didnt have drm to begin with dont count to say "others did it first"Jan 15 13:13
schestowitz"Google, here we come!!"Jan 15 13:13
oiaohmAdus: what is getting me is for all this restruct.   There is no sign of new products to replace those destroyed.Jan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3Apple _forced_ the RIAA to do it.Jan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3it was part of a larger planJan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3and Apple wonJan 15 13:13
MinceRDiablo-D3: lolJan 15 13:13
MinceRDiablo-D3: bullshit.Jan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3Not bullshit.Jan 15 13:13
cubezzznapster was non-pay originally wasn't it?Jan 15 13:13
MinceRDiablo-D3: music stores that began without DRM did it the _right_ wayJan 15 13:13
Omar87Diablo-D3: to me, TheSixtyOne FTW! :-DJan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3itunes sells more music than any other retailerJan 15 13:13
Adusoiaohm: Well, I can only speak for what we're doing in my division.Jan 15 13:13
oiaohmAdus: Idea of a restruct is always to make more profit.   Problem is I cannot see how.Jan 15 13:13
MinceRDiablo-D3: hypeTunes was merely forced to get with the program or lose profits.Jan 15 13:13
Diablo-D3apple said "we're not doing drm anymore"Jan 15 13:13
MinceRDiablo-D3: they tell a lot of liesJan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3riaa was forced to accept the new terms or stop selling music altogether.Jan 15 13:14
schestowitzNovell restructured tooJan 15 13:14
MinceRDiablo-D3: they're still doing DRMJan 15 13:14
AdusDiablo-D3: Apple did that because the consumer demanded it, not out of the goodness of their heartsJan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3MinceR: on video.Jan 15 13:14
schestowitzDown from 4 units to 2 in DecemberJan 15 13:14
Adusjust like Microsoft dropped NGSCB/Palladium because there was major opposition.Jan 15 13:14
schestowitzNovell is losing it totally nowJan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3Adus: thats partially trueJan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3Apple is a companyJan 15 13:14
MinceRDiablo-D3: which doesn't count in your world?Jan 15 13:14
oiaohmAdus:  currently it looks to me more of an attempt to cut the bleed.   My point of view changes if I could see something coming out of it.Jan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3their number one job is to make moneyJan 15 13:14
schestowitzI have a post about it later... another massive contract they have just lostJan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3if the consumers say "we'll buy more music if DRM goes"Jan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3then apple will get rid of drm.Jan 15 13:14
Diablo-D3the riaa was forced, ironically, to profit against their will. boo fucking hoo.Jan 15 13:15
MinceRDiablo-D3: also, iirc they did charge a lot of extra money on giving customers DRM-free versions of DRM-ed songs they've bought.Jan 15 13:15
Diablo-D3MinceR: yes, a very small amountJan 15 13:15
Diablo-D3it also gave them higher quality versions iircJan 15 13:15
AdusDiablo-D3: I'm very much of the opinion that it is not the job of companies like Apple, Microsoft and Google to cover the asses of other incompetent companies by pushing DRM on their usersJan 15 13:15
Adusit's not their problem.Jan 15 13:15
Diablo-D3Adus: its the job of apple, microsoft, and google to make moneyJan 15 13:15
Diablo-D3DRM does not make moneyJan 15 13:15
AdusDiablo-D3: Yes, precisely.Jan 15 13:16
Diablo-D3ergo, its the job of apple, microsoft, and google to reject itJan 15 13:16
Diablo-D3apple grabbed the riaa by the ballsJan 15 13:16
AdusWhich they have pretty much all done now.Jan 15 13:16
Diablo-D3and said no more drmJan 15 13:16
oiaohmYet DRM does make money in places.Jan 15 13:16
Diablo-D3Adus: microsoft still does it internally thoughJan 15 13:16
Diablo-D3Adus: I want the license shit goneJan 15 13:16
AdusDRM is certain places makes sense, Consoles for example.Jan 15 13:16
oiaohmLike locking out thrid party memory cards out of xbox 360  AdusJan 15 13:16
MinceRconsoles suckJan 15 13:16
MinceRand their DRM-dependent business model sucks even moreJan 15 13:16
oiaohmSo MS collects all the money on memory cards.Jan 15 13:16
Diablo-D3Adus: DRM makes no sense anywhereJan 15 13:17
Adusoiaohm: Yes, I think it makes sense on consoles to some extent. We could argue the pros and cons, on the whole I think it's a good thing for consumers in a console.Jan 15 13:17
Diablo-D3if you're afraid of pirates, then you're charing too much for the product.Jan 15 13:17
oiaohmEnd result less competion higher prices for the device.  AdusJan 15 13:17
oiaohmHarmed end users AdusJan 15 13:17
Diablo-D3Adus: and not all DRM is created equalJan 15 13:17
oiaohmWeaker location in the market long term.Jan 15 13:17
Adusoiaohm: But users of consoles expect a console to "just work", that's the whole appealJan 15 13:17
Diablo-D3Adus: I have no problem with amazon hiding ID information in my music bought off amazon mp3Jan 15 13:17
Adusand opening the platform means you can no longer guarantee thatJan 15 13:17
Adusit becomes a PCJan 15 13:17
MinceRoh noes, it becomes usableJan 15 13:18
Diablo-D3Adus: it doesn't effect playback whatsoever, it just stops me from letting other people pirate off meJan 15 13:18
oiaohmWhat says there is not a middle ground AdusJan 15 13:18
Diablo-D3steam is the same way... it's DRM consists of calling home to see if its a legit copy.Jan 15 13:18
oiaohmSony never has locked what memory cards users can use.Jan 15 13:18
MinceRDiablo-D3: it also stops you from lending it to others.Jan 15 13:18
Adusoiaohm: I agree, consoles could be more open. I think XNA went someway towards thatJan 15 13:18
Adusfurther than Sony or Nintendo have goneJan 15 13:18
Diablo-D3MinceR: I'm not sure lending even matters anymore.Jan 15 13:18
MinceRDiablo-D3: and it still puts you in danger if someone breaks into a system where you're storing such songs.Jan 15 13:18
Adusand it was a masterstroke, supporting indie development has done wonders for MSJan 15 13:19
MinceRDiablo-D3: lending is part of fair use.Jan 15 13:19
Diablo-D3MinceR: nope, it doesn't.Jan 15 13:19
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Diablo-D3MinceR: lending is part of fair use _only_ when people stop abusing it.Jan 15 13:19
oiaohmThe over use of DRM always comes back to bite.  AdusJan 15 13:19
oiaohmIt will on the xbox360 in time.Jan 15 13:19
MinceRDiablo-D3: can you guarantee that the person you're lending it to won't abuse it?Jan 15 13:19
Diablo-D3MinceR: for example, I don't believe in rental stores.Jan 15 13:19
Diablo-D3I _do_ believe in libraries.Jan 15 13:19
AdusWell, that's the problem. I doubt any of us in here would infringe copyright by downloading music or software, but the fact is, people doJan 15 13:19
Adusand it's a big problemJan 15 13:20
oiaohmPeople fail to learn leasons from items like ipods so repeat it AdusJan 15 13:20
MinceRalso, can you guarantee that his storage device won't be broken into or stolen?Jan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3MinceR: btw, dont bring up the theft problemJan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3they cant sue me for itJan 15 13:20
oiaohmWhat is different to what MS is doing with controllers and ipods and itunes.Jan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3all I do is throw a police report in their faceJan 15 13:20
MinceRDiablo-D3: you're living in a dream worldJan 15 13:20
AdusYou have people like me, who are quite pro MS etc and you have people like you lot, who are very pro FOSS. The issue is the people inbetween, who don't really care and just want to download shit for free.Jan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3not at allJan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3lets say I own a gunJan 15 13:20
AdusThey are the problem.Jan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3the gun is stolen, I file a police reportJan 15 13:20
Diablo-D3someone then shoots someone with my gunJan 15 13:21
Diablo-D3the guy who got shot cant do shit to meJan 15 13:21
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] New on #Flickr: My best shot of the day of #Solar #Eclipse #Photography (via @sudhamshu)Jan 15 13:21
Diablo-D3he cant sue, he cant press charges.Jan 15 13:21
oiaohmAdus:  Open source don't have a pirate problem.Jan 15 13:21
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MinceRDiablo-D3: and they won't even take into consideration that the report you filed was a lie, no sirJan 15 13:21
oiaohmAdus:  open source companies worked out support to use products is important.Jan 15 13:21
MinceRthis system can't be exploited, right?Jan 15 13:21
Diablo-D3MinceR: if Im lying on a police report, I have much larger problems than companies like Apple.Jan 15 13:21
oiaohmHow do you steal support?  AdusJan 15 13:21
MinceRDiablo-D3: the authorities don't mind if you have large problems.Jan 15 13:22
Adusoiaohm: Maybe not, but you have to admit that the open-source business model can not work in every case. I'm not saying there is not some common ground you can find, but that's still to be worked out to some extent. And copyright infringement harms both sides.Jan 15 13:22
Diablo-D3the authorities _are_ the large problem, MinceR.Jan 15 13:22
MinceRthey're _one_ large problem.Jan 15 13:22
Diablo-D3they're the largest problem of allJan 15 13:22
oiaohmCopyright infringement by closed source harms open source.Jan 15 13:22
Diablo-D3generally, someones not going to lie on a police reportJan 15 13:22
MinceRgenerally.Jan 15 13:22
AdusIf people didn't infringe copyright at all, ever. What do you think the state of affairs would be today?Jan 15 13:22
oiaohmBut there is no such thing as copy right infringement of end users against open source.  AdusJan 15 13:22
AdusA lot better for everyone.Jan 15 13:22
Diablo-D3Adus: rather boring, actuallyJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3most music wouldnt existJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3computers probably wouldnt existJan 15 13:23
oiaohmWhat is the advantage of the open source model.  Less people to search for infringment so more enforcable AdusJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3and we'd probably all be deadJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3humans steal good ideasJan 15 13:23
Adusoiaohm: But that business model does not work for everything.Jan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3microsoft steals every good idea they can get their hands onJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3its their thingJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3its what they doJan 15 13:23
MinceR...and implements it badlyJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3MinceR: sadly yesJan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3but they had the right ideaJan 15 13:23
cubezzzsteal isn't a good word, imitate is betterJan 15 13:23
oiaohmTPM combind for devices works quite well.  AdusJan 15 13:23
AdusA game for instance, costs a very large amount of money to develop, and I don't see how an open-source model could work.Jan 15 13:23
Diablo-D3foss, however, _shares_ ideas.Jan 15 13:24
Diablo-D3we freely hand them outJan 15 13:24
MinceRand that's how crApple started their idiot box industry, too.Jan 15 13:24
Diablo-D3and our system, through that, works so much betterJan 15 13:24
Diablo-D3if someone has a better idea, they're not our competitor... they're our best friend.Jan 15 13:24
oiaohmRemember when you sell hardware you still have to support it Adus.Jan 15 13:24
AdusI truly believe there is some middle-ground, and I also truly believe that ultimately it's up to the author to decide what is done with their own creation.Jan 15 13:24
MinceRAdus: there already are FLOSS that cost a very large amount of money to develop.Jan 15 13:24
oiaohmOpen source is combinding into the support locations.  AdusJan 15 13:24
AdusMinceR: But they don't have the same model as games.Jan 15 13:25
Diablo-D3Adus: yes, it is up to the author... however, when authors get in the way of other authors, theres a problemJan 15 13:25
MinceRAdus: m$ won't settle for any sort of middle groundJan 15 13:25
Diablo-D3Adus: like, I have a right to run non-blessed software on my xbox... xbox does not have the right to, say, ban me from xbox live.Jan 15 13:25
MinceRAdus: they think what we do is a "cancer"Jan 15 13:25
Diablo-D3Adus: er, microsoftJan 15 13:25
oiaohmLot of open source games have restrictive licences on media.  AdusJan 15 13:25
Diablo-D3Adus: so, microsoft has effectively attacked every single open source game developerJan 15 13:25
Adusoiaohm: Which is just moving the problen.Jan 15 13:25
Diablo-D3and you know what we do with people like that?Jan 15 13:25
oiaohmNo its not AdusJan 15 13:26
Diablo-D3we ignore them.Jan 15 13:26
Diablo-D3and then they're no longer relevant.Jan 15 13:26
MinceRDiablo-D3: they might not have the right to ban you, but they'll do so anywayJan 15 13:26
oiaohmRemember on line game servers are also support  AdusJan 15 13:26
Adusoiaohm: Yes it is, what makes software different to assets? Absolutely nothing except your perception.Jan 15 13:26
Adusyes, the MMO model is a genius way to do thingsJan 15 13:26
Adusbut there is only 1 big player :pJan 15 13:26
Diablo-D3Adus: so, basically, if microsoft keeps pushing away people who want to develop on their machines.... they're fuckedJan 15 13:26
MinceRthat's a "genius way" only in the business senseJan 15 13:26
oiaohmThe licence is against setting up your own non approved servers with the media.  AdusJan 15 13:26
Diablo-D3after awhile, there will be no "old school" closed source developersJan 15 13:26
MinceRnot letting anyone run a server constrains innovation a lot.Jan 15 13:26
oiaohmNot against users running there own games in local lans where it cannot be found or policed AdusJan 15 13:27
Diablo-D3Microsoft, at their current rate, is dead.Jan 15 13:27
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Diablo-D3And I don't particularly want to see Microsoft dieJan 15 13:27
MinceRi doJan 15 13:27
oiaohmOpen Source guys are head of you at reducing the numbers of people they have to hunt down.  AdusJan 15 13:27
AdusI think you underestimate the push from within certain departments MinceR.Jan 15 13:27
*cubezzz shrugsJan 15 13:27
Diablo-D3I don't. They have a lot of people, they have a lot of money, and they could actually go off and write software that isn't shit.Jan 15 13:27
MinceRAdus: do you think the likes of ballmer even cares about that push?Jan 15 13:28
Diablo-D3I'm not anti-closed sourceJan 15 13:28
MinceRAdus: or even notices it?Jan 15 13:28
Diablo-D3I buy closed source softwareJan 15 13:28
AdusMinceR: Ballmer won't be around forever.Jan 15 13:28
AdusAnd ultimately it's the shareholders who decideJan 15 13:28
MinceRAdus: then he'll be replaced by yet another of his kindJan 15 13:28
Diablo-D3but do you know who's software I buy? companies who's software correctly runs on linux.Jan 15 13:28
MinceRAdus: just like gatesJan 15 13:28
cubezzzthere's only one true unopenable app: tax programsJan 15 13:28
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cubezzzno one wants to work on those Jan 15 13:28
Diablo-D3cubezzz: hahahaJan 15 13:28
oiaohmAdus: How can you enforce against billions?  At some point there is just too many people to enforce your copyright against.Jan 15 13:28
AdusMinceR: Well, that remains to be seen. Jan 15 13:28
Diablo-D3that is sadly trueJan 15 13:28
Diablo-D3I agree with oiaohm btwJan 15 13:29
oiaohmAdus: That is what the Open Source people avoid.Jan 15 13:29
MinceRAdus: who are the majority shareholders?Jan 15 13:29
Diablo-D3if the entire world culture changes, how do you arrest everybody alive?Jan 15 13:29
MinceRi suspect the m$ inner circle still owns 51% or more.Jan 15 13:29
Diablo-D3your only choice is to evolve or die.Jan 15 13:29
oiaohmRedhat sells access rights to there update servers.   Not the Redhat OS it self.Jan 15 13:29
Adusoiaohm: Ultimately we all want the same thing, we want a sustainable model of software development and distribution, which is both fair to the developer and end-user.Jan 15 13:29
oiaohmYou need updates don't you.Jan 15 13:29
oiaohmIe what are updates other than support for the product.Jan 15 13:30
AdusWe just disagree about how to get there, but I have no doubt we will all arrive on something one day.Jan 15 13:30
oiaohmOpen Source has purely focused in on support because it gives us the least numbers of people to police.Jan 15 13:30
oiaohmand causes less people to hide from us and not submit bug reports.Jan 15 13:30
oiaohmalso causes less people to steal.Jan 15 13:31
Diablo-D3Adus: are you pro or anti foss?Jan 15 13:31
AdusDiablo-D3: Neither really. I am not anti-foss, nor am I pro.Jan 15 13:31
AdusI think there is a place for it.Jan 15 13:31
cubezzzit's not stealing, how can you steal an intangible object?Jan 15 13:31
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Diablo-D3I think there is a place for Microsoft at the table, imoJan 15 13:31
MinceRDiablo-D3: i think he's the "i love FLOSS, BUT..." typeJan 15 13:31
Diablo-D3they just refuse to come.Jan 15 13:31
oiaohmClosed source model followers will hae to follow the open source way or run into the problem of not having the resources to enforce licence.  AdusJan 15 13:31
MinceRm$ would only have a place at the table if they were capable and willing to develop something of valueJan 15 13:32
AdusI didn't come to work for Microsoft instead of Google because I fundamentally disagree with how google support foss etc. I came because the job paid more money and was more interesting.Jan 15 13:32
AdusThat's the simple truth of the matter :pJan 15 13:32
MinceRand they are neitherJan 15 13:32
cubezzz$$$ over all eh?Jan 15 13:32
AdusI'll work for anyone if they pay me enough and it's an interesting job/project.Jan 15 13:32
AdusYes, and I make no apologies for that.Jan 15 13:32
MinceRAdus: well, at least m$ supports FLOSS... oh, waitJan 15 13:32
oiaohmWhat is the one problem here with closed source.Jan 15 13:32
cubezzzclosed source is crap, you can't do your own fixes Jan 15 13:33
oiaohmAdus you get paid once to write the software how many times with closed source does that work end up being paid for.Jan 15 13:33
Adusoiaohm: What does that matter?Jan 15 13:33
oiaohmIts the major reason why Open Source in large companies is growing.  Costs.Jan 15 13:34
oiaohmIt so simple with closed source to over charge.Jan 15 13:35
Adusit's also the reason that games are a good thing to invest in, because generally you can make money using that model.Jan 15 13:35
oiaohmAt this stage it not simple for people to create there own games.Jan 15 13:36
AdusA popular game like Fable might cost you 20 million to developJan 15 13:36
oiaohmtoday yes.Jan 15 13:36
cubezzzpeople used to write their own games all the timeJan 15 13:36
AdusYep, but that's not practical these daysJan 15 13:37
Adusthey are very large teamsJan 15 13:37
oiaohmLong term the practical side of it will return.Jan 15 13:37
AdusI doubt that, the industry is moving in the opposite direction. People like MS, Sony, EA and Activision dominate nowJan 15 13:37
oiaohmClosed source only can use there model while it not cheep to compete with.Jan 15 13:38
AdusThe games industry will end up like the movie businessJan 15 13:38
oiaohmYou are not watching the movie business.Jan 15 13:38
AdusYou'll have a few independants, and a few very large publishersJan 15 13:38
Adusand that'll be it.Jan 15 13:38
oiaohmMore and more there development of 3d movies are being based on open source software.Jan 15 13:38
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Adusoiaohm: That wasn't my point, I was simply referring to layout in terms of how big the companies are etcJan 15 13:39
oiaohmNow those same movie companies are now wanting to reuse there created movie media straight up to create games and are turning to open source to do it.Jan 15 13:39
AdusI don't deny games are likely to use more and more middleware, some of it open-sourceJan 15 13:39
oiaohmSo are funding open source project like blender movie and game projects.Jan 15 13:39
Adusno one disputes that.Jan 15 13:39
AdusFor instance, we use Lua.Jan 15 13:40
oiaohmend result simpler for everyone to make games.Jan 15 13:40
oiaohmHigh end and lowend.Jan 15 13:40
Adusoiaohm: Yep, but that's rarely the source of costs in games devJan 15 13:40
AdusOk, so big companies like MS have their own engines etc, but most companies don't.Jan 15 13:40
AdusMost companies build on existing middlewareJan 15 13:41
oiaohmYou are aware how many model makers blender has that gives models away for nothing.Jan 15 13:41
oiaohmJust at this stage for most of them it too complex for them to team up and make games because they are artists not coders.Jan 15 13:41
AdusVery few decent models which are modelled correectly, textured correctly, rigged and animated etcJan 15 13:41
Adusthere's a lot more than just creating the art and software.Jan 15 13:41
MinceRAdus: do you think the movie industry has reached a stable state? :>Jan 15 13:41
AdusNot at all.Jan 15 13:42
AdusBut the games industry is heading in the same direction the movie industry is in at the moment.Jan 15 13:42
AdusI actually think that's a bad thingJan 15 13:42
oiaohmAdus: common in the blender world for modelled correctly and textured correctly.  Tools to simplfy rigging and animation next version of blender.Jan 15 13:42
AdusI'd like to see far more independent game developers with innovative ideas. World of Goo, Braid etc.Jan 15 13:42
DaemonFCAdus: Crapping everything up (for themselves) with DRMJan 15 13:43
AdusBut that seems to be diminishing.Jan 15 13:43
DaemonFCpissing off former loyal customersJan 15 13:43
DaemonFCsuing people just to make examples of themJan 15 13:43
oiaohmAdus:  Xbox and PS3 change for independant developers to be on there.Jan 15 13:43
DaemonFCcorrupting our laws with their bribed politiciansJan 15 13:43
oiaohmSimple problem here lot of independants don't have the money  AdusJan 15 13:43
AdusWell, Xbox 360 does have XNA.Jan 15 13:43
oiaohmXNA you still have to pay to use it.  AdusJan 15 13:44
DaemonFCAdus: Microsoft is a lot like thatJan 15 13:44
DaemonFCbut so is the movie cartelJan 15 13:44
AdusNot for windows oiaohm, and the Xbox version is very cheapJan 15 13:44
Adusit's absurdly cheap compared to getting your hands on a devkit from sony etcJan 15 13:44
DaemonFCthe XBOX is a cheap pile of shitJan 15 13:44
oiaohmAlso its not cross platform AdusJan 15 13:44
DaemonFCthey sell it overpriced is allJan 15 13:44
MinceRthe expensive part is buying new xboxes after the previous ones all fry themselves, then?Jan 15 13:45
Adusoiaohm: Nor is libgcm on PS3 or the graphics layer on the Wii.Jan 15 13:45
oiaohmSo if you game is good and you build it in XNA you cannot get onto lots of markets.  AdusJan 15 13:45
DaemonFCMinceR: They buy them from China, they were put together with prison, slave, and child laborJan 15 13:45
DaemonFCprobably doesn't cost muchJan 15 13:45
AdusYou can hit 2 markets oiaohm, Windows and Xbox 360, which are pretty big.Jan 15 13:45
MinceRDaemonFC: yet m$ puts a large premium on those pricesJan 15 13:45
DaemonFCprobably the biggest costs in the entire equation is shipping the piles of crapJan 15 13:46
oiaohmNot enough AdusJan 15 13:46
DaemonFCacross the sea, across the country to Texas, etc.Jan 15 13:46
oiaohmYou leave out marks for cut downs on phones.   AdusJan 15 13:46
AdusI'm not saying it's perfect oiaohm, but compared to Sony and Nintendo, we've done a damn sight more in supporting indiesJan 15 13:46
DaemonFCI would not be able to name any other piece of consumer hardware with an 87.5% failure rateJan 15 13:47
AdusDaemonFC: Yes, we know, you think the xbox hardware is unreliable. I don't care. :pJan 15 13:47
DaemonFCthe XBOX 360 is the only one I know of where if the failure rate was a congressional majority, you could break any vetoJan 15 13:47
DaemonFCno, I think it's a fucking pile of garbageJan 15 13:47
DaemonFCthat's what I thinkJan 15 13:47
MinceRAdus: yes, we know, you live in a dream world where the xbox failure rate is below 50%Jan 15 13:48
AdusYou obviously haven't seen the stats for the new hardware configurationsJan 15 13:48
DaemonFCHow many XBOX 360's eventually overheat? pretty much all of themJan 15 13:48
DaemonFCWhat's the XBOX 360 mean time between failure? About 6 monthsJan 15 13:48
AdusDaemonFC: Not in my experience.Jan 15 13:48
DaemonFCWhat is Microsoft Support? Some guy that doesn't speak English who insults youJan 15 13:49
oiaohmYet blender is doing more.  Like working on a unified engine for all markets that runs there blend files.  AdusJan 15 13:49
MinceRAdus: you don't read the news, do you?Jan 15 13:49
DaemonFCMicrosoft Support is worse than being on the phone with ComcastJan 15 13:49
DaemonFCnobody knows what to tell you, you get told something else every time they transfer youJan 15 13:50
DaemonFCthey try to accuse you of breaking your $300 XBOXJan 15 13:50
oiaohmAdus:  even that is means building a engine under BSD licence so it can be used on platforms that don't allow source code releases like your XBOX.Jan 15 13:50
MinceRAdus: 15 13:50
phIRCe-localTitle: Report: Xbox 360 Failure Rate Over 50 Percent - RROD - Kotaku .::. Size~: 61.26 KBJan 15 13:50
DaemonFCthey were telling me I was overheating my XBOX by placing it on thick carpeting, funny that my floor is hard woodJan 15 13:50
oiaohmYou wonder were the independants have gone.  You killed them they depended on open source to fill in there lack of resources at times.Jan 15 13:50
DaemonFCooopsJan 15 13:51
DaemonFCretardsJan 15 13:51
DaemonFCyou have to wonder how they hire so many bullshit artistsJan 15 13:51
oiaohmAdus: About time you see that Open Source is a critical part of the market.  Forbid it from the market you kill off smaller players.Jan 15 13:52
schestowitzremember that lady who spoke about Monsanto (wallc did transcribe her text)? She has sued Monsanto in India :-) \0/Jan 15 13:52
Adus 15 13:52
phIRCe-localTitle: Xbox 360 failure rate 23.7%, PS3 10%, Wii 2.7% - Study -  News at GameSpot .::. Size~: 192.29 KBJan 15 13:52
DaemonFCit goes from "You're fucking it up!" to "That's an isolated incident", then the "isolated incident" is over half the consoles out thereJan 15 13:52
oiaohmIt also depends where you do the numbers AdusJan 15 13:53
DaemonFCI trust the people that say it happens over and over and over againJan 15 13:53
DaemonFCbecause that's what my numbers looked likeJan 15 13:53
MinceRm$ has their "independent analysts" to make up their numbers for themJan 15 13:53
AdusYou know better than to think I can comment on those stats anyway.Jan 15 13:53
oiaohmAround I know a lot of people who have giving up on Xboxs because the failure rate is shocking if you don't have aircon.  AdusJan 15 13:53
DaemonFCMicrosoft is whitewashing it with employees like Adus Jan 15 13:53
DaemonFCtrying to anywayJan 15 13:53
oiaohmI guess colder areas have lower failure rates AdusJan 15 13:53
oiaohmIt would be interesting if MS maped out where the failures are happening.   Could be that some areas need models with different cooling setups.  AdusJan 15 13:54
DaemonFCgive up, it's already a scandal, people already know the XBOX 360 is the definition of defectiveJan 15 13:54
AdusDaemonFC: I have never seen a statement from Microsoft whitewashing it, they have never ever denied the problem exists.Jan 15 13:54
DaemonFCit's not a state secret anymoreJan 15 13:54
DaemonFCMicrosoft was denying itJan 15 13:54
oiaohmAdus: I have seen the numbers all over the place with Xbox failures.Jan 15 13:54
DaemonFCfor well over a yearJan 15 13:54
DaemonFCdeny deny denyJan 15 13:54
DaemonFCblame the customersJan 15 13:54
oiaohmHeat + salt seams to be the worse AdusJan 15 13:54
DaemonFCdeny some moreJan 15 13:55
DaemonFCMicrosoft does not take responsibility until they just can't shout over you with their liesJan 15 13:55
DaemonFCor until their documents get hauled into courtJan 15 13:55
oiaohmI wonder if the boards don't have a good enough coating to stay in one piece in that combination AdusJan 15 13:55
DaemonFCand become public knowledgeJan 15 13:55
AdusDaemonFC: That is not true, I had my launch xbox fail without a couple of moneths and they replaced it without any issueJan 15 13:55
Adussince then I have not had a failure.Jan 15 13:55
DaemonFCyou work for themJan 15 13:55
DaemonFCwhy wouldn't they?Jan 15 13:56
AdusNo, I didn't then.Jan 15 13:56
oiaohmWhat temp range has it been in AdusJan 15 13:56
Adusoiaohm: UK :pJan 15 13:56
oiaohmOk cold ishJan 15 13:56
AdusBut DaemonFC, Microsoft have never denied the problem exists.Jan 15 13:56
DaemonFCyeahJan 15 13:56
DaemonFCfrom launch in 2005, to clear into 2007Jan 15 13:56
DaemonFCthey lied constantlyJan 15 13:56
oiaohmI see the failure rate increase massivally in areas with 40+ temps.Jan 15 13:56
Adus 15 13:56
phIRCe-localTitle: pastebin - collaborative debugging tool .::. Size~: 14.51 KBJan 15 13:56
AdusI don't see how that is a denial exactly? :pJan 15 13:56
oiaohmWith people without aircon AdusJan 15 13:56
AdusWhich if the official MS statement on the issueJan 15 13:57
DaemonFCHow do you know a Microsoft PR spokeperson is lying? His/Her lips are movingJan 15 13:57
oiaohmWe do see kind of the same effect with particular models of cpu chips as well AdusJan 15 13:57
Adusoiaohm: Yeh, the new boards are better I hearJan 15 13:57
oiaohmOnly one problem with xbox 360 we cannot change cpu to use the applications.Jan 15 13:57
Adusthough again, not really allowed to comment :pJan 15 13:57
DaemonFCthey have to either be overwhelmed or caught red handed to come out with the truthJan 15 13:57
oiaohmAbout 4 months compared to 1 so they have improved it a bit but not enough AdusJan 15 13:58
DaemonFCif it really was an isolated incident, they could have kept it buriedJan 15 13:58
AdusDaemonFC: They extended the warranty to 3 years within the first year.Jan 15 13:58
DaemonFCAdus: Why not just....not cheap out in the first place?Jan 15 13:58
oiaohmBut where you are that improvement could be enough to last for ever.  AdusJan 15 13:58
DaemonFCBuild something to lastJan 15 13:58
DaemonFCI know it's not Microsoft's forte, but damnJan 15 13:58
AdusDaemonFC: Well, we all know there is obviously a design flaw. That's unfortunate.Jan 15 13:59
AdusBut MS had no legal obligation to extend the warranty to 3 yearsJan 15 13:59
Adusfor RROD and E74Jan 15 13:59
DaemonFCAdus: Everything Microsoft builds is a tinderboxJan 15 13:59
oiaohmIts the advantage japan has building consoles.Jan 15 13:59
DaemonFCit's just as simple as thatJan 15 13:59
*trmanco (n=trmanco@unaffiliated/trmanco) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 13:59
oiaohmThere weather gives you everything.  AdusJan 15 13:59
oiaohmUnless you build the console well it will not live.Jan 15 13:59
oiaohmBasically I think MS Xbox designes need to be moved to a tougher climent.Jan 15 14:00
DaemonFCI don't understand how any company with a production environment could use WindowsJan 15 14:00
oiaohmMore have to than want to.Jan 15 14:00
DaemonFCit's good enough to be standard consumer fodder, as in "Oh shit, it BSOD'd while I was playing my game, damn!"Jan 15 14:01
amarsh04without airconditioning, even an insulated house can get to 35 C inside during a heatwave hereJan 15 14:01
oiaohmGoverments being a prick with like access databases you have to run and submit data in access format.Jan 15 14:01
DaemonFCHospitals use Windows thoughJan 15 14:01
DaemonFCit's how malware gets in and steals patient recordsJan 15 14:01
DaemonFCConficker even infected CAT scan machinesJan 15 14:01
oiaohmReally I want to know were exactly are the xbox 360 designers.  It could completely explain the verable failure rates.Jan 15 14:02
oiaohmIe what city or cities would be enough.Jan 15 14:02
DaemonFCoiaohm: If I unleashed it onto the world, I wouldn't want anyone to know where I was atJan 15 14:02
DaemonFC:DJan 15 14:02
DaemonFCafraid they'd find me and bludgeon me to death with the power brickJan 15 14:03
oiaohmI really suspect it a testing issue DaemonFCJan 15 14:04
oiaohmWith the base design.Jan 15 14:04
oiaohmfollowed up with cutting construction costs too much.Jan 15 14:04
oiaohmKnowing where the designers were would enable me to work out a rough global map of problistic failure rates then see if it matches.Jan 15 14:05
DaemonFCmake it cheap, rush the design, cut corners, run it hot, and finish it off with Microsoft software that has 50,000 bugs but ships that way anywayJan 15 14:05
DaemonFCI believe that's what happenedJan 15 14:05
oiaohmruns hot is not a issue if the temp is cool enough.Jan 15 14:05
oiaohmIe overheating would not show.Jan 15 14:05
DaemonFCthey shipped Windows 2000 with over 60,000 bugs that they were aware ofJan 15 14:06
oiaohmYet anyone out side that correctly cold enough area would be screwed.Jan 15 14:06
oiaohmSince the cooling system would be way too light.Jan 15 14:06
DaemonFCI remember people saying that it was winter and that they had to hang the power brick out their windowJan 15 14:06
oiaohmAnd I expect the expand of cooling system and temp droping of cpus would also follow the same kind of mapping.Jan 15 14:06
DaemonFCelse the 360 would crash againJan 15 14:06
AdusThe 360 was designed in SeattleJan 15 14:07
oiaohmYou have centeral heating right.Jan 15 14:07
DaemonFCAdus: I understand they have a lot of cocaine in Seattle Jan 15 14:07
AdusI don't live in Seattle, I'm US BasedJan 15 14:07
DaemonFCso I accept your statement as presentedJan 15 14:07
AdusI work for the XBLPG, not the XBDGJan 15 14:08
Adus:pJan 15 14:08
oiaohmSeattle's hottest official recorded temperature was 103 °F (39.4 °C) on July 29, 2009;[79] the coldest recorded temperature was 0 °F (–18 °C) on January 31, 1950Jan 15 14:08
DaemonFCis that the part where they sell you the other half of your game in microtransactions and take in $60 a year to play online or be able to use Netflix?Jan 15 14:08
oiaohmYep there is a problem.Jan 15 14:08
AdusDaemonFC: What?Jan 15 14:08
oiaohmHotest recored temp here is a nasty 46 CJan 15 14:09
DaemonFCXBOX LiveJan 15 14:09
AdusI work for the Xbox LIVE! Platform GroupJan 15 14:09
AdusI work on server-side architectureJan 15 14:09
DaemonFCyeah, they manage to run off with a lot of money for shit that should be free or in the game alreadyJan 15 14:09
DaemonFC200 microsoft points for horse armor :DJan 15 14:09
oiaohmAnd more north it gets worse.Jan 15 14:09
AdusYou can hardly blame Microsoft for what third-party developers decide to sell as DLCJan 15 14:09
Adusthe PS3 has exactly the same :pJan 15 14:10
amarsh04hottest recorded here is 47.7 CJan 15 14:10
DaemonFCwhat these bastards do is they sell you all this downloadable crapJan 15 14:10
AdusHAve you played 1 vs 100?Jan 15 14:10
oiaohmAnd it nothing for us in summer to get 1 or 2 42 C days.Jan 15 14:10
DaemonFCthen a year later the game gets revisioned and ships with all the crap you just paid twice as much forJan 15 14:10
oiaohmMore north the worse it gets.Jan 15 14:10
amarsh04and minimum daily temperature sometimes being as high as 30 CJan 15 14:11
amarsh04or moreJan 15 14:11
AdusI have to say I was pretty disapointed with activision decided to *up* the RRP for MW2Jan 15 14:11
AdusRRPs should be going downJan 15 14:11
DaemonFCMicrosoft employees are getting paid to FUD Netflix on Wii, acting like there was actually much HD content on NetflixJan 15 14:11
DaemonFCthere wouldn't be because it costs more to streamJan 15 14:11
Diablo-D3[08:30:48] <MinceR> m$ would only have a place at the table if they were capable and willing to develop something of valueJan 15 14:12
Diablo-D3they're capableJan 15 14:12
Diablo-D3the question is are they willingJan 15 14:12
oiaohmHeck some of our places like adelaide australia that are low down in australia due to desert can get 42 C + in summber  AdusJan 15 14:12
AdusThe Zune Marketplace on Xbox 360 has 1080p streaming contentJan 15 14:12
DaemonFCZune? That still exists?Jan 15 14:12
oiaohmThe developers of the Xbox 360 simple were not in a tough enough temp zone AdusJan 15 14:12
AdusZune is the media brand, yup.Jan 15 14:12
DaemonFCwith its HD radio to pick up all dozens stations in the USJan 15 14:12
DaemonFC*dozenJan 15 14:12
oiaohmNext one move them for testing to a nasty climent please AdusJan 15 14:12
oiaohmThat sould reduce the failure rates.  AdusJan 15 14:13
DaemonFCAdus: Why can't Microsoft build anything that's not totally lulzy?Jan 15 14:13
AdusI don't know much about the Zune hardware DaemonFC, that's not available in teh UKJan 15 14:13
Adusbut "Zune" is the media brand, not just the hardwareJan 15 14:13
DaemonFCAdus: I don't want a Zune, it has zero value to me right off the batJan 15 14:13
Diablo-D3zune hardware is pretty boring and convensionalJan 15 14:14
DaemonFCI don't have any MP3 files and I'll be damned if I'm making a WMAJan 15 14:14
AdusWell, that's fine. I'm not saying you should get one, I just said I don't know anything about it.Jan 15 14:14
AdusI was simply saying that Zune is the media brand, and there is 1080p streaming on the Xbox 360 Zune MarketplaceJan 15 14:14
oiaohmAdus: unstable consoles should be a worry to you guys doing the server side.Jan 15 14:14
Diablo-D3yeah, zune is ~= itunes basicallyJan 15 14:14
Adusoiaohm: Why?Jan 15 14:15
Diablo-D3it covers the whole branding, not just the devices under itJan 15 14:15
DaemonFCZune is DRMlicious I'm sureJan 15 14:15
DaemonFCeven more so than AppleJan 15 14:15
DaemonFCMicrosoft is in love with DRM, making sure they steal your fair use rightsJan 15 14:15
oiaohmSome of the xbox's to die here are ram failures not cpu.  So you could end up with xbox basically fuzzing the network.   AdusJan 15 14:15
DaemonFCall that good stuffJan 15 14:15
Diablo-D3oiaohm: huh, thats problematicJan 15 14:15
Adusoiaohm: Oh, we handle that just fine.Jan 15 14:15
AdusSNL handles all that :)Jan 15 14:16
AdusNot a system I have a whole lot to do with.Jan 15 14:16
DaemonFCmaking sure that it doesn't work without Windows is just a bonusJan 15 14:16
Diablo-D3I wonder why its the ram failingJan 15 14:16
Diablo-D3it shouldn't be an overheating problemJan 15 14:16
oiaohmtemp Diablo-D3Jan 15 14:16
Diablo-D3360s simply dont get that hotJan 15 14:16
oiaohmThere are quite a few brands of ram that don't last well in my area.Jan 15 14:16
Diablo-D3they'd have to be using chips that aren't rated for the specs they're running them at to begin withJan 15 14:16
DaemonFCAdus: What would you say to the poor bastards who actually amassed a music library from MSN Music?Jan 15 14:16
Diablo-D3oiaohm: probably they're scrap chips thenJan 15 14:16
AdusGenerally the 360 fails because the solder arouund the GPU melts, and the tracks get inconsistent connectionsJan 15 14:16
DaemonFCthey got scammed, plain and simpleJan 15 14:17
AdusEssentialy "disconnected" from the board, that's why putting them in the oven, or using the towel trick will fix them for a whileJan 15 14:17
Adussuper-heating ti again evens out the tracksJan 15 14:17
Diablo-D3Adus: ugh, I hate that problemJan 15 14:17
*Diablo-D3 has had to fix boards with thatJan 15 14:17
Diablo-D3its usually the super-cheap chinese shit that does thatJan 15 14:17
DaemonFCthe solder around the GPU meltsJan 15 14:18
AdusThe reason is happens is because in order to fit the GPU where they wanted (under the DVD drive) they had to shrink the heatsinkJan 15 14:18
DaemonFCthat's.....wowJan 15 14:18
Adusputtign the 2 hottest components together was a bad mistakeJan 15 14:18
oiaohmThat is a heat disposal problem.Jan 15 14:18
DaemonFCthat's bad even by Microsoft standardsJan 15 14:18
Adusand that's the design flawJan 15 14:18
Adus:pJan 15 14:18
Diablo-D3Adus: actuallyJan 15 14:18
Diablo-D3the design flaw is its not a soc.Jan 15 14:18
oiaohmYep colder area not as big as issue AdusJan 15 14:18
Diablo-D3the 360 is just a horrid designJan 15 14:18
oiaohmProblem is most of the world is hotter than where they designed it.Jan 15 14:18
Diablo-D3and they keep using it over and overJan 15 14:18
DaemonFCAdus: I actually had that happen once, on a video card, it was only a $20 modelJan 15 14:18
Diablo-D3oiaohm: noJan 15 14:18
DaemonFCbut the fan wires melted and came offJan 15 14:19
AdusWell, if they had turned the board around and used the proper heatsink, it would be pretty much fine.Jan 15 14:19
DaemonFCthen the GPU fried itselfJan 15 14:19
DaemonFClolJan 15 14:19
Diablo-D3they could use pure copper heatsinksJan 15 14:19
Diablo-D3but it'd also weigh like a pound moeJan 15 14:19
AdusBut they worked out it's cheaper to replace the consoles, that rebuild all the manufacturing equipment etc :(Jan 15 14:19
Diablo-D3Adus: yes, but they'd have to hire someone thats not an idiotJan 15 14:19
AdusThe new 65nm and coming 45nm chips have improved it a lot.Jan 15 14:19
Diablo-D3and btw, thats whats wrong with microsoftJan 15 14:19
Diablo-D3[09:18:04] <Adus> But they worked out it's cheaper to replace the consoles, that rebuild all the manufacturing equipment etc :(Jan 15 14:20
Diablo-D3that right thereJan 15 14:20
Diablo-D3that hits it right on the noseJan 15 14:20
Diablo-D3in my part of the world, we either do it right or we dont do it at allJan 15 14:20
Diablo-D3periodJan 15 14:20
DaemonFCAdus: So much for people that want to keep their console and games for 20 years after you quit making them, like owners of hardware from Nintendo, Sega, and for the most part SonyJan 15 14:20
Diablo-D3you dont cut corners, you dont do it half assedJan 15 14:20
DaemonFCright?Jan 15 14:20
AdusDaemonFC: hehe, I have like 6 dreamcastsJan 15 14:20
DaemonFCI still have consoles from the 1980s that still workJan 15 14:20
AdusStill do dreamcast dev in my spare timeJan 15 14:20
Adusfun stuffJan 15 14:20
Diablo-D3dreamcasts were like the best console everJan 15 14:20
DaemonFCand 7 XBOX 360s died inside 4 yearsJan 15 14:20
DaemonFCis that acceptable? noJan 15 14:21
AdusThing the earliest console I still have is my Sega megadriveJan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3hehJan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3snes > genesisJan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3clearlyJan 15 14:21
AdusDaemonFC: The thing is, the PS3 and Wiis are all that much more reliable in terms of those sort of timesJan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3Adus: btw, most of us have DaemonFC on ignoreJan 15 14:21
oiaohmEarliest thing I have for gaming.Jan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3hes kind of trolltasticJan 15 14:21
AdusI think it's just a problem with the type of hardware that's in console these daysJan 15 14:21
DaemonFCAdus: The PS3 is as powerful as the XBOX 360, or more (probably more)Jan 15 14:21
oiaohmIs a old IBM xt that I use to enjoy digdug on.Jan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3Adus: but yeah, like, look at the first gens of the PS3Jan 15 14:21
AdusIt's far less reliable, because it's essentially a PC with a PowerPC Chip :pJan 15 14:21
DaemonFCwhy aren't they dying right and left?Jan 15 14:21
Diablo-D3Adus: its HUGEJan 15 14:22
Diablo-D3and you know why its huge?Jan 15 14:22
oiaohmAdus: not exactly  Xbox360 is a custom chip.Jan 15 14:22
Diablo-D3because sony managed to not fuck it up too badly.Jan 15 14:22
DaemonFCAdus: There's nothing inherently wrong with PowerPC CPUsJan 15 14:22
Diablo-D3btw, the 360 isnt too custom]Jan 15 14:22
DaemonFCI have several of themJan 15 14:22
oiaohmMost PowerPC chips are highly dependanble.Jan 15 14:22
Adusoiaohm: The Xbox 360 is a Xenon PowerPC Based chip.Jan 15 14:22
Diablo-D3they had IBM customize them a off the shelf chipJan 15 14:22
AdusI know everything there is to know about the Xenon :pJan 15 14:22
Diablo-D3its an IBM design, its rather stableJan 15 14:22
AdusThe PPU rarely fails, it's usually the GPUJan 15 14:22
Diablo-D3I dont have a problem with the 360 hardwareJan 15 14:23
DaemonFCAdus: It's basically a few G5 coresJan 15 14:23
Aduswhich in the 360, is an ATI cardJan 15 14:23
Diablo-D3its the way the fucking morons put it in the boxJan 15 14:23
DaemonFCI know that's not exactly right, but I'm closeJan 15 14:23
Diablo-D3Adus: be glad its not nvidiaJan 15 14:23
AdusDaemonFC: It has some major differences to standard PPC chipsJan 15 14:23
Diablo-D3your failure rate would exceed the number of consoles actually builtJan 15 14:23
DaemonFCAdus: DRMJan 15 14:23
DaemonFClockout keysJan 15 14:23
DaemonFCetcJan 15 14:23
AdusI was thinking more about the game specific improvementsJan 15 14:23
oiaohmYep DaemonFC all those feature add extra places for the CPU to fail.Jan 15 14:23
Adusthe main "DRM" feature is the eFuses, which is something in nearly all PPC chipsJan 15 14:23
DaemonFCwell, it supports Altivec, but that's not uniqueJan 15 14:24
oiaohmThat the chip natively would not have.Jan 15 14:24
Adusoiaohm: They replaced features rather than added them.Jan 15 14:24
Diablo-D3oiaohm: uh, you're full of shit dudeJan 15 14:24
AdusRemoved instruction re-ordering, to add a dot product pipeline etcJan 15 14:24
Diablo-D3go back to CPU design 101Jan 15 14:24
Diablo-D3Adus: actually, they didnt even add thatJan 15 14:24
Diablo-D3Adus: that was already there, but from a different product familyJan 15 14:24
DaemonFCAdus: I actually like PowerPC from what I've seen of itJan 15 14:24
DaemonFCI have a dual G4 1 Ghz MacJan 15 14:25
AdusStandard out of the box ppc chips do not have a dot product or vector compute pipeline last time I checkedJan 15 14:25
AdusDiablo-D3: Oh, I don't doubt most of it's nto new, but the combination is uniqueJan 15 14:25
Diablo-D3yeah, its a new fabJan 15 14:25
Diablo-D3but the designs in it arentJan 15 14:25
Diablo-D3its custom, but not newJan 15 14:25
AdusWhy would they be? That's asking for troubleJan 15 14:25
Diablo-D3well, the ps3 is more newer than the xenon isJan 15 14:25
Diablo-D3they have that weird halfbreed cell in itJan 15 14:25
AdusYeh, but the PPU core is essentially a xenon.Jan 15 14:26
AdusThe SPUs are unique admittedly.Jan 15 14:26
DaemonFCit's got Cell, I think I'd rather have that than XenonJan 15 14:26
DaemonFCif I was going to use it as a PC that isJan 15 14:26
Diablo-D3normal cells == cell spus + two conventional 970fx coresJan 15 14:26
AdusDaemonFC: CELL is very hard to work with, before I was at MS I was at Codemasters and worked with the PS3 a lotJan 15 14:26
Adusit's an awesome piece of hardware, and a shoddy piece of software and sdkJan 15 14:26
Diablo-D3ps3 cell == a butchered bus pipeline, same number of spus, the lightest PPC core ever slapped togetherJan 15 14:26
Adusthe 360 is the oppositeJan 15 14:26
Adusdecent software and development kit, bad hardware.Jan 15 14:27
oiaohmDiablo-D3: I said all those features added extra places to fail.  ie design changes.  I was not saying adding features as such.Jan 15 14:27
Diablo-D3every possible thing they could have removed from the 970 they didJan 15 14:27
Diablo-D3oiaohm: the G5 is a very well understood designJan 15 14:27
DaemonFCwell, Microsoft knows how to build an SDK, I would expect more out of them there than SonyJan 15 14:27
Diablo-D3they've made like a billion G4 and G5 chipsJan 15 14:27
Diablo-D3they're used everywhereJan 15 14:27
AdusBut yeh, as far as I know, the PPU in the 360 (Xenon) and hte PS3 Jan 15 14:27
Adusare extremely reliableJan 15 14:27
AdusI'm not aware of any large scale CPU failuesJan 15 14:27
Adusnearly always GPUJan 15 14:27
Adusor memoryJan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3especially in automotive and embedded work, that family of PPCs are used oftenJan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3Adus: yeahJan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3I trust IBM fabbersJan 15 14:28
oiaohmSame is true with a new combination arm chip even if all the parts are know just moving a few parts possition can make the difference between a well behaving chip and a prick.  Diablo-D3Jan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3they're very good at what they doJan 15 14:28
DaemonFCwell, not cooling it properly will lead to failureJan 15 14:28
AdusThe 360 also has unified memory. The PS3 has 256mb RAM and 256mb VRAMJan 15 14:28
Aduswhich was a mistake imhoJan 15 14:28
Adusthe 512mb unified on the 360 is far easier to work with for devs.Jan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3Adus: actually, thats a larger problemJan 15 14:28
DaemonFCI wonder if anyone at Microsoft actually turned one on and used it before shipping themJan 15 14:28
oiaohmIts alway the risk of a custom chip Diablo-D3.Jan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3Adus: its not the unified (or not) that causes the problemsJan 15 14:28
Diablo-D3Adus: its the fact that no one deploys a high end packetting bus networkJan 15 14:29
Diablo-D3Adus: you basically need an AMD solution to correctly fix thisJan 15 14:29
AdusDiablo-D3: it causes a significant headache when you're targeting those platforms, especially because you tend to want more than 256mb for graphics related magic :pJan 15 14:29
Diablo-D3normal AMD CPU -> hypertransport, gpu -> hypertransportJan 15 14:29
DaemonFCI'm not crazy about AMD or IntelJan 15 14:29
DaemonFCI just like Intel lessJan 15 14:29
Diablo-D3both the gpu and cpu use the same hypertransport memory controllerJan 15 14:30
oiaohmPS3 core chip was used for processing before it become a PS3 chip basically the same chip that went into the PS3.  So most of it glitches got rattled on in that process.   Diablo-D3Jan 15 14:30
Diablo-D3oiaohm: dude, shut up.Jan 15 14:30
Diablo-D3seriously, just shut upJan 15 14:30
oiaohmHistory of the chips Diablo-D3Jan 15 14:30
AdusI have no strong feelings for AMD or Intel. I tend to buy Intel stuff.Jan 15 14:30
AdusJust because I always have, and I've never had a problem.Jan 15 14:30
AdusIntel + nvidiaJan 15 14:30
Adusis always my home comboJan 15 14:30
Diablo-D3Adus: IBM does have the tech for thisJan 15 14:30
oiaohmWii and PS3 chip had history in it dia form before it entered the console.  Diablo-D3Jan 15 14:30
Diablo-D3Adus: POWER memory controllers on the newer revisions can talk to each other across the busJan 15 14:31
AdusIt actually really annoys me, because if it wasn't for the failure rate of the 360, it would walk all over the competition in terms of hardware configuration and SDK/SoftwareJan 15 14:32
AdusIt's just a real shame it has that one big flaw which hurts it so muchJan 15 14:32
Diablo-D3yes, and that is sadJan 15 14:32
Diablo-D3its because some moron who doesnt understand hardware design made a decisionJan 15 14:32
Diablo-D3thats microsoft's story for the past 20 yearsJan 15 14:32
Diablo-D3why do you think most of the ms talent quit and are now working at other companies?Jan 15 14:33
Diablo-D3they got tired of PHBs telling them what to doJan 15 14:33
AdusI mean the software, and the server-side stuff (Xbox Live) is not only superior, it's in another league, compared to the competition.Jan 15 14:33
Diablo-D3Adus: ehJan 15 14:33
Diablo-D3its not _that_ goodJan 15 14:33
AdusDiablo-D3: It really is.Jan 15 14:34
Diablo-D3but no one has anything I've been particularly impressed withJan 15 14:34
Diablo-D3I'd much rather roll out my own custom software if I had to do thatJan 15 14:34
AdusIf you start to look at the technical limitations of PSN etc, you start to realise how superior xbox live really isJan 15 14:34
Diablo-D3yes, but I'd never do business on either of themJan 15 14:35
Diablo-D3the markets aren't big enoughJan 15 14:35
AdusSome companies have been very succesful on XBLAJan 15 14:35
Diablo-D3some yes.Jan 15 14:35
AdusShadowcomplex etc did very very wellJan 15 14:35
Diablo-D3even more have done better on Steam, for exampleJan 15 14:35
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 15 14:35
Diablo-D3if I was making a game right now, I'd be using Steam as my distribution system.Jan 15 14:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "The [desktop] share of #GNU #Linux reached the tipping point in 2009" 15 14:36
AdusDiablo-D3: I'm not sure that's true.Jan 15 14:36
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux News: Community: On Pi, Paper Penguins and FOSS' Regal Potential .::. Size~: 63.74 KBJan 15 14:36
AdusI'd like to see your numbers. It's my understanding that Xbox live far outstrips steam in terms of top earners etcJan 15 14:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Picture of the World’s Smallest #Linux Computer 15 14:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Worlds Smallest Linux Computer and Linux Networking Server (pics)  «  DigitalKamera .::. Size~: 25.44 KBJan 15 14:37
Diablo-D3Adus: depends how you look at itJan 15 14:37
AdusI could of course be wrong, it's not unheard of.Jan 15 14:37
Diablo-D3xbox live could say they make more total dollars on xblaJan 15 14:37
Diablo-D3but normalized to total games sold, its probably very similar to steam.Jan 15 14:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Lot of #GNU #Linux Planned for #Lotusphere 2010 15 14:38
AdusHow many subscribers does steam have?Jan 15 14:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Ubuntu Surprises at Lotusphere 2010? | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 47.14 KBJan 15 14:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Canonical, IBM: Ubuntu Counters Windows 7 At Lotusphere | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 53.44 KBJan 15 14:38
Diablo-D3Adus: millionsJan 15 14:38
Diablo-D3I'd have to go look for the exact numberJan 15 14:38
AdusHow many millions?Jan 15 14:38
AdusWe have 20 million active users on XBLJan 15 14:38
Diablo-D3Adus: btw, theres also a two fold problemJan 15 14:38
Diablo-D3Microsoft does not yet support me as a developerJan 15 14:38
AdusWhich is roughly 1/3rd of our install base. The question is, how to get the other 2/3rds on XBL as wellJan 15 14:38
Adus:pJan 15 14:38
Diablo-D3I will not buy a SDK, I will not develop on Windows, I will not use C#.Jan 15 14:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Servers at #Google to Run #Ext4 #fs #tsoJan 15 14:39
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Technology Story | Google Switching To EXT4 Filesystem .::. Size~: 154.29 KBJan 15 14:39
Diablo-D3Microsoft already lost me as a developer before they startedJan 15 14:39
Diablo-D3and they'd also have to buy me an 360, since I wont buy oneJan 15 14:39
AdusDiablo-D3: Well, you don't have to use C#. You think we use C# to write software for the 360 at MS? :pJan 15 14:39
Diablo-D3Adus: I wont use WindowsJan 15 14:39
AdusOk, that would be a stumbling block.Jan 15 14:39
Diablo-D3I dont see them releasing a gcc-based toolkit for linux to compile 360 binaries.Jan 15 14:39
AdusNope, you need Visual Studio 2008Jan 15 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux is Released 15 14:40
Diablo-D3and I also find msvc incredibly annoyingJan 15 14:40
Diablo-D3its one of the worst IDEs ever madeJan 15 14:40
Diablo-D3even monodev is better than it, and monodev is absolute shitJan 15 14:40
AdusReally? I generally find VC to kick the ass of other IDEsJan 15 14:40
AdusThe C++ stuff for Eclipse is getting there thoughJan 15 14:40
Diablo-D3for "full featured" ides, its eclipse > mono/sharpdev > vis studioJan 15 14:40
Diablo-D3but see, I'm a vim man.Jan 15 14:41
AdusBut I think think VC is better, and the MS debugger is far superious imho.Jan 15 14:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] List of #Calculator Applications for #GNU #Linux 15 14:41
phIRCe-localTitle: Three calculators for the Linux desktop .::. Size~: 42.5 KBJan 15 14:41
Diablo-D3so all that additional crap gets in the wayJan 15 14:41
Diablo-D3Adus: and theres other problemsJan 15 14:41
AdusOur TD here is really into emacs, it's his answer to everything.Jan 15 14:41
Diablo-D3microsoft wont release an opengl stack for 360Jan 15 14:41
Diablo-D3I'm not writing code twice.Jan 15 14:41
Diablo-D3and the 360 SDK uses C++, I dont.Jan 15 14:41
AdusC actually.Jan 15 14:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SuperGamer Packs #GNU #Linux with 8 Gigabytes of #Games 15 14:42
phIRCe-localTitle: SuperGamer, 8GB of Linux-Only Gameplay | Linux Journal .::. Size~: 41.17 KBJan 15 14:42
Diablo-D3I imagine theres some C++ APIs in itJan 15 14:42
Diablo-D3such as the DX apis (which I wont dev for)Jan 15 14:42
AdusYou could be write. Certainly the API areas I maintain are CJan 15 14:42
Adusright*Jan 15 14:42
Diablo-D3btw, in the past 48 hours, steam peaked at 2.3 million usersJan 15 14:43
AdusOur server-side stuff is written in C++, and our client side stuff is C++ but the API is exposed via CJan 15 14:43
AdusDiablo-D3: Roughly the same as XBL then. Slightly lessJan 15 14:43
Adusour peak is usually around 3 million usersJan 15 14:43
Diablo-D3so yeah, as a linux developer, I can, in fact, use Steam.Jan 15 14:44
Adus3.2 is the record I believe, the weak MW2 released. Usually around 2.8 - 3 at peak time.Jan 15 14:44
Adusweek*Jan 15 14:44
Diablo-D3I may not be able to deploy to linux users, but I can do nearly all my dev in linuxJan 15 14:44
Diablo-D3hahah mw2Jan 15 14:44
Diablo-D3the most played game atm on steam is mw2Jan 15 14:44
AdusI saw in the news they have grossed $1bnJan 15 14:44
Adusthis monthJan 15 14:44
Diablo-D3yeah, its nutsJan 15 14:44
Diablo-D3its not even that good of a gameJan 15 14:45
AdusYeh, I agree.Jan 15 14:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat Surged as Market Tanked 15 14:45
phIRCe-localTitle: This Stock Loves the Recession (RHT) .::. Size~: 59.71 KBJan 15 14:45
Diablo-D3its counterstrike upgradedJan 15 14:45
Diablo-D3which, #2 atm is cs:sJan 15 14:45
Diablo-D3 15 14:45
phIRCe-localTitle: Steam: Game and Player Statistics .::. Size~: 31.33 KBJan 15 14:45
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 15 14:45
AdusIt's not a *bad* game, but it's hardly the best game everJan 15 14:45
Adusmy game of 2009 is definitely Dragon Age: OroginsJan 15 14:45
Adusbut I'm a real RPG nutJan 15 14:45
Diablo-D3I dunno, I'd love an ultrarealistic war gameJan 15 14:45
Diablo-D3but no one ever seems to deliverJan 15 14:45
AdusTried Operation Flashpoint 2: Dragon Rising?Jan 15 14:46
Diablo-D3the closest I've gotten is the tc:e mod for etJan 15 14:46
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] I am learning to fly; ( Any one wonders how and where? )Jan 15 14:46
*jono (n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 14:46
Diablo-D3Adus: arma2 > dragon risingJan 15 14:46
AdusI used to work at Codies, the guys downstairs were working on OFP, looked good. Came out last year. Not bought it though.Jan 15 14:46
AdusI was on the racing teamJan 15 14:46
Diablo-D3and Im not too impressed with arma2Jan 15 14:47
Diablo-D3arma2 gets some things very right, other things annoyingly wrongJan 15 14:47
Diablo-D3its not good enough for me to buyJan 15 14:47
AdusDid you get Dragon Age?Jan 15 14:47
Diablo-D3no, Im not into mmo shitJan 15 14:47
AdusIt's not an MMOJan 15 14:48
AdusIt's an RPG :pJan 15 14:48
Diablo-D3ahh... still not quite my thingJan 15 14:48
Diablo-D3I dont like modern rpgsJan 15 14:48
AdusBest RPG Bioware have done since KotOR imhoJan 15 14:48
Diablo-D3heh, its funnyJan 15 14:48
Diablo-D3I own kotorJan 15 14:48
Diablo-D3and still havent played itJan 15 14:48
Aduskotor is one of my favourite games everJan 15 14:48
Diablo-D3wine chokes on itJan 15 14:48
AdusIt does? Odd.Jan 15 14:49
Diablo-D3its a stupid bug whatever it isJan 15 14:49
Diablo-D3because it really shouldntJan 15 14:49
AdusDoes cedega still totally own Wine, or has it evened out now?Jan 15 14:49
Diablo-D3cedega failed the day wine changed their licenseJan 15 14:49
Diablo-D3cedega never had any actual codersJan 15 14:49
AdusThey not still around?Jan 15 14:49
Diablo-D3they're around in the sense that people are still duped into buying itJan 15 14:50
Diablo-D3actual development has long since stoppedJan 15 14:50
AdusI thought they had that thingy for porting to Mac?Jan 15 14:50
Diablo-D3I never heard of them having oneJan 15 14:50
Diablo-D3Wine does, thoughJan 15 14:50
AdusBut I seem to remember Cedega had far better support for games than Wine a while back.Jan 15 14:50
AdusActually, just as D3D9c came around.Jan 15 14:51
Diablo-D3not betterJan 15 14:51
Diablo-D3it was actually buggy as hellJan 15 14:51
Diablo-D3wine's current d3d9 support is basically doneJan 15 14:51
AdusAny D3D10 or 11?Jan 15 14:51
Diablo-D3they're just hunting down bugs that result in microsoft not properly documenting APIsJan 15 14:51
Diablo-D3some d3d10Jan 15 14:51
Diablo-D3there isnt many d3d10 titles out thereJan 15 14:51
AdusYeh, I know there is a team at MS trying to go through the docs are correct all the incorrectly doced bits and pieces in D3D and WinApiJan 15 14:52
Diablo-D3correcting the docs doesnt fix already shipped games.Jan 15 14:52
AdusI expect that job would take a lifetime.Jan 15 14:52
Diablo-D3Adus: oh, another thingJan 15 14:52
Diablo-D3mesa/dri are developing a new HAL to actually do everything rightJan 15 14:52
Diablo-D3something no windows driver does, for exampleJan 15 14:53
AdusTrue, but if you can make the undocumented/unspecified behaviour documented, and mimmick it, you're alright.Jan 15 14:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] European Parliament's services not able to deliver transcripts of the hearing of the new Commissioners #transparency #europeJan 15 14:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenOffice .org 3.2 a Step Closer to Final Release, Office in More Trouble 15 14:53
phIRCe-localTitle: New: 3.2.0 Release Candidate 2 (build OOO320_m9) available - GullFOSS .::. Size~: 54.92 KBJan 15 14:53
phIRCe-localTitle: A Pivotal Moment for Microsoft Office - Windows Software News Story .::. Size~: 46.46 KBJan 15 14:53
Diablo-D3they're going to teach it how to speak d3d at some pointJan 15 14:53
Diablo-D3so wine no longer has to translate to opengl first which will solve a lot of graphical bugsJan 15 14:53
Diablo-D3wine will just use native d3d support.Jan 15 14:53
Diablo-D3AMD is spending a lot of money and time on the development of the new gallium3D stuffJan 15 14:54
Diablo-D3the radeon r6/7/800 drivers, although a tad incomplete, are already faster than radeon drivers on windowsJan 15 14:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZTE Bets on #Linux for Handsets 15 14:55
phIRCe-localTitle: ZTE accelerates Android handset release plan • Register Hardware .::. Size~: 20.25 KBJan 15 14:55
Diablo-D3so windows is really.... screwed.Jan 15 14:55
AdusThere were some experiments not long ago with getting games to run on Windows Embedded. Really stripped down versions with stuff for D3D11 and D3D12, with new driver models etcJan 15 14:55
AdusI hear the results were promisingJan 15 14:55
Aduswill be interesting to see what they decide onJan 15 14:55
Diablo-D3that wouldn't be so badJan 15 14:55
Diablo-D3but microsoft really should quit trying to compete with linuxJan 15 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Strikes #MySQL -related Deal 15 14:56
AdusI don't think they want to compete with Linux, I think the focus was on what they might be able to do for Windows 8 and beyondJan 15 14:56
phIRCe-localTitle: Big Blue rides Schooner to MySQL boost • The Register .::. Size~: 30.79 KBJan 15 14:56
Adusin terms of D3DJan 15 14:56
Diablo-D3wellJan 15 14:56
AdusI'd argue that OpenGL and D3D don't actually compete all that muchJan 15 14:56
Diablo-D3what they should be doing, imo, is getting rid of the 360 platformJan 15 14:56
Diablo-D3it should become a unified software toolkitJan 15 14:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU Involves in Workshop on e-Health in Emerging Economies #ethicsJan 15 14:57
phIRCe-localTitle: IWEEE 2010: International Workshop on e-Health in Emerging Economies .::. Size~: 4.73 KBJan 15 14:57
Diablo-D3and just sell a single model of "computer" that represents the lowest end unitJan 15 14:57
Diablo-D3and then open source the whole toolkitJan 15 14:57
AdusI really doubt Microsoft will move into selling PCsJan 15 14:57
AdusThey really don't want to do that.Jan 15 14:57
Diablo-D3Adus: they already doJan 15 14:57
Diablo-D3its called the 360Jan 15 14:57
AdusDiablo-D3: No, that's not the same at all. The moment it runs standard Windows, it becomes a problem.Jan 15 14:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] On the way to kozhikkode ..Jan 15 14:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Makes Mistakes That Push for Increased Use of #GNU #Linux 15 14:58
Diablo-D3I never said run standard windowsJan 15 14:58
phIRCe-localTitle:    Desktop Linux Market Share Will Rise, Thanks to Microsoft |   Linux Magazine .::. Size~: 46.56 KBJan 15 14:58
Diablo-D3I said have a unified toolkit.Jan 15 14:58
AdusMicrosoft's biggest strength, whatever you hate about them, is that their OS is compatiable with an insane amount of hardware and softwareJan 15 14:58
Adusthe moment they start to lose thatJan 15 14:58
Adusit's game overJan 15 14:58
Diablo-D3I could, say, build a program for windows, xbox++, osx, and linuxJan 15 14:58
Diablo-D3all from the same codeJan 15 14:58
Diablo-D3with no performance loss or issues.Jan 15 14:58
AdusWell, you can do that for Xbox and Windows.Jan 15 14:58
AdusJust not for OSX and Linux as well.Jan 15 14:58
Diablo-D3I cant do it with xbox quite exactlyJan 15 14:59
Diablo-D3Im very limited in what I can do on an xbox.Jan 15 14:59
Diablo-D3in contrast, look at the iphone OSJan 15 14:59
Diablo-D3its osx underneath, with a new UI stack on topJan 15 14:59
*DaemonFC ( has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 14:59
AdusBut the 360 *is* windows underneathJan 15 14:59
AdusIt's derived from Windows 2000Jan 15 14:59
Diablo-D3yes, but theres still limitations imo.Jan 15 15:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple sued Again for #Patent Infringement 15 15:00
phIRCe-localTitle: Patent wars: Kodak sues Apple, RIM for patent infringement | Between the Lines | .::. Size~: 177.82 KBJan 15 15:00
AdusNot really. The big limitations are UI stuffJan 15 15:00
Adusyou still have winsock etc etcJan 15 15:00
Diablo-D3theres still no opengl stackJan 15 15:00
AdusWell, you'll hate me for saying this. but D3D is better than opengl :pJan 15 15:00
Diablo-D3imo its notJan 15 15:00
Diablo-D3but it doesn't actually matterJan 15 15:01
AdusI'd be far happier if Microsoft made d3d openly available on all platforms than if they added opengl to the 360 :pJan 15 15:01
Diablo-D3microsoft does not natively support d3d on linuxJan 15 15:01
AdusNo, but if they did.Jan 15 15:01
Diablo-D3and until linux natively does d3d, I CANT USE IT.Jan 15 15:01
AdusThat's my point, given the choiceJan 15 15:01
Diablo-D3now, as I said above, this will possibly come to passJan 15 15:01
AdusI'd rather use d3d on Linux than opengl on 360 :pJan 15 15:01
Diablo-D3gallium3D is a HAL API that allows hardware backends ("drivers") to support anythingJan 15 15:01
Diablo-D3opengl, opencl, that hardware svg shit, etcJan 15 15:02
Diablo-D3all if it is driven through the same unified hardware backend.Jan 15 15:02
MinceR151046 < Diablo-D3> they're capableJan 15 15:02
Diablo-D3this also means d3d can also be done.Jan 15 15:02
MinceRthere's no proof of thatJan 15 15:02
MinceRplus they're pretty much forced to now and they still failed (see vista, vista7)Jan 15 15:02
Diablo-D3MinceR: they have capable employees leaving the company to actually go do real work somewhere elseJan 15 15:02
MinceRwell, maybe not even those people can deliver anything of value under m$ managementJan 15 15:03
AdusDiablo-D3: We have a lot of very talented people at MS.Jan 15 15:03
Diablo-D3the PHBs keep telling people capable of actually doing this shit "no"Jan 15 15:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Desktop Assessment of #RedHat , #Microvell , #Ubuntu , and #Fedora 15 15:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux Desktop Comparison: Red Hat, Novell, Ubuntu, Fedora &mdash; .::. Size~: 63.66 KBJan 15 15:03
Diablo-D3microsoft _does_ have a lot of talented peopleJan 15 15:03
Diablo-D3they're just shit on all the damned timeJan 15 15:03
Diablo-D3its stupid and pointlessJan 15 15:03
Diablo-D3if I ran microsoft, I'd probably fire half the companyJan 15 15:03
AdusI quite like it here. As I say, I chose here over Google. They have far better benefits here :pJan 15 15:03
Diablo-D3schestowitz: bad url on that last oneJan 15 15:03
Adusand far more freedomJan 15 15:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Leads the #Programming League 15 15:04
phIRCe-localTitle: Popular Languages of 2009 | Javalobby .::. Size~: 31.1 KBJan 15 15:04
*Diablo-D3 would fire probably almost all the upper managementJan 15 15:04
MinceRif i ran m$, i'd shut down the company, release all code under GPLv3 and give the money back to the shareholdersJan 15 15:04
Diablo-D3MinceR: nopeJan 15 15:04
Diablo-D3I'd spend the next ten years transitioning the company into one that sells services.Jan 15 15:04
MinceRbetter to get out now than after a lot more decline anywayJan 15 15:04
Diablo-D3I'd give the next windows away for freeJan 15 15:04
Diablo-D3totally completely free.Jan 15 15:04
Diablo-D3no licenses, no calling homeJan 15 15:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Openness/Freedom Spreads to Hardware, #Commons Promoted 15 15:05
phIRCe-localTitle: CES 2010: Open Source 3-D Printer Turns Designs Into Objects - Video - Wired  .::. Size~: 103.36 KBJan 15 15:05
phIRCe-localTitle: Strengthen the Commons «  Seminário dez anos depois .::. Size~: 36.72 KBJan 15 15:05
MinceRDiablo-D3: who would want to buy crap services from a company that can no longer force anyone to buy them?Jan 15 15:05
Omar87schestowitz: Check this out. 15 15:05
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsofts Anti-Counterfeiting Chief Quits, Sales in the Gulf Dive 50% | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 94.89 KBJan 15 15:05
Diablo-D3MinceR: support contracts.Jan 15 15:05
Diablo-D3its no different than sun or oracle's business modelsJan 15 15:05
Omar87schestowitz: ahh. that was nothing.Jan 15 15:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Information About #Antitrust Against the #IntellectualMonopolists (Racketeers/Cartel) 15 15:06
Omar87I'm sorry.. :)Jan 15 15:06
phIRCe-localTitle: - 2nd Circuit Reinstates Antitrust Claim Against Online Music Providers .::. Size~: 25.72 KBJan 15 15:06
MinceRDiablo-D3: except that m$ has no good products nor goodwillJan 15 15:06
Diablo-D3MinceR: not yet, no.Jan 15 15:06
AdusI truly believe we have the best people in the world at MS. Google and Apple have their fair share as well.Jan 15 15:06
MinceRall they have is ill-gotten market share they use as leverageJan 15 15:06
MinceRand they'll lose thatJan 15 15:06
Diablo-D3but having one of the most vocal microsoft haters on the internet at their helm changes things.Jan 15 15:06
MinceRAdus: sure. you and crApple have some of the best lawyers in the worldJan 15 15:06
rnb_hello groupJan 15 15:06
MinceRAdus: crApple might have some of the best marketroids in the worldJan 15 15:07
Diablo-D3And yes, if Microsoft asked me to work very high up in their companyJan 15 15:07
Diablo-D3I wouldJan 15 15:07
Diablo-D3I wouldnt even think twiceJan 15 15:07
AdusMinceR: But that doesn't change the fact we have the best developers :pJan 15 15:07
Diablo-D3I just want full control over my part of the companyJan 15 15:07
MinceRAdus: keep telling yourself thatJan 15 15:07
MinceRAdus: i'll wait until you can turn up some evidence -- that is, non-crap software.Jan 15 15:07
AdusIf you truly believe that the developers at Microsoft are not good, you're totally insane :pJan 15 15:08
rnb_microsoft naturally employs dullardsJan 15 15:08
Diablo-D3the NT kernel, btw, isn't that bad.Jan 15 15:08
MinceRDiablo-D3: it was written by a guy from DEC, based on VMS designJan 15 15:08
Diablo-D3MinceR: yupJan 15 15:08
rnb_they have to, in order for their employees to not become dissatisfied with the purpose of their lifeJan 15 15:08
MinceRyet the changes m$ wanted ruined it anywayJan 15 15:08
Diablo-D3which is why I'd actually like to keep itJan 15 15:08
Diablo-D3what it needs is a unified kernel messaging designJan 15 15:08
MinceRsuch as GUI and all kinds of random crap in kernel spaceJan 15 15:08
Diablo-D3MinceR: actuallyJan 15 15:08
MinceRwhich fits into the VMS model even less than it fits into the Unix model.Jan 15 15:09
Diablo-D3hardware handling does belong in the kernelJan 15 15:09
AdusDiablo-D3: Haha, that's a very touchy subject :pJan 15 15:09
Diablo-D3I very much do want the D3D backend, for example, in the kernelJan 15 15:09
MinceRDiablo-D3: the GUI is not hardware handling, it's windowing system+window manager+toolkit+panelsJan 15 15:09
Diablo-D3MinceR: that, obviously, I dontJan 15 15:09
Diablo-D3but gallium3D, for example, is half kernel space.Jan 15 15:09
MinceRyet a lot of the windowing system is in kernel spaceJan 15 15:09
MinceRmeanwhile their marketroids keep telling us that it's a microkernel.Jan 15 15:10
Diablo-D3I'd fire the marketroids too.Jan 15 15:10
MinceRDiablo-D3: if you want VMS, use VMS.Jan 15 15:10
AdusSo you literally envisage drivers being Ring 0, not Ring 1 and 2? Jan 15 15:10
Diablo-D3Adus: basically yes. Its not _that_ bad of a problem.Jan 15 15:10
Diablo-D3btw, I don't consider USB device drivers driversJan 15 15:10
Diablo-D3or any of that other nonsenseJan 15 15:11
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] மியாவ் மியாவ்... மியாவ் மியாவ் பூன.... (டமுக்கு டமுக்கு டமுக்கு டமுக்கு... ) :PJan 15 15:11
Diablo-D3even the linux kernel gets that a tad wrongJan 15 15:11
AdusBut 99% of windows crashes are bad drivers, and since moving the video drivers to user modeJan 15 15:11
Diablo-D3Adus: wrongJan 15 15:11
Adusthe number of craches have dropped a lotJan 15 15:11
Adus:pJan 15 15:11
Aduscrashes*Jan 15 15:11
Diablo-D3you're attributing the problem very wrongJan 15 15:11
Diablo-D399% of drivers are not written by microsoftJan 15 15:11
Diablo-D3the ones that are work 100% perfectly.Jan 15 15:11
AdusBecause Microsoft know how to write drivers properly :pJan 15 15:12
Diablo-D3Adus: look at gallium3DJan 15 15:12
Adusthird-parties don't.Jan 15 15:12
Diablo-D3its a unified system for all gpu workJan 15 15:12
MinceRif you were to restrict windows to only m$ drivers, it would have very bad hw supportJan 15 15:12
MinceRi wonder how the m$ fanboys would react to that.Jan 15 15:12
AdusMinceR: Exactly. But if don't do that, you can't run all drivers in kernel mode.Jan 15 15:12
AdusMoving the video drivers to user mode was a good decision imhoJan 15 15:13
Adusit makes the experience for the end-user better.Jan 15 15:13
Diablo-D3Adus: mesa+dri+gallium3D provide an opengl library, access to hardware acceleration, a LLVM-based shader compiler, and full low level access to the hardwareJan 15 15:13
MinceRactually i'd prefer a real microkernel, with as little running in kernel mode as possibleJan 15 15:13
MinceRbecause i value reliability over performance.Jan 15 15:13
Diablo-D3Adus: its generic across all vendorsJan 15 15:13
MinceRbut it still seems to be the futureJan 15 15:13
AdusMinceR: I agree, but Diablo-D3 is proposing the oppositeJan 15 15:13
MinceRmaybe it will always be the future.Jan 15 15:13
Adushe's proposing drivers in Ring 0, in kernel mode :pJan 15 15:13
schestowitz[15:03] <Diablo-D3> schestowitz: bad url on that last oneJan 15 15:13
schestowitzDatamation?Jan 15 15:13
MinceRhow many architectures have 4 rings anyway?Jan 15 15:13
Diablo-D3schestowitz: tinyurl failJan 15 15:13
MinceRx86 and VAX do, but what others?Jan 15 15:13
Diablo-D3schestowitz: the dssktop comparison oneJan 15 15:14
AdusWhich imho, is a bad idea. I think you have it all wrong Diablo-D3. There is no reason a system like that couldn't run in user-modeJan 15 15:14
MinceR(included x86-64 in x86)Jan 15 15:14
Diablo-D3Adus: no, most of mesaland IS in usermodeJan 15 15:14
MinceR(and disregarding ring -1, obviously)Jan 15 15:14
Diablo-D3its the backend of gallium3D that talks directly to the hardware that is in the kernelJan 15 15:14
schestowitz[15:06] <MinceR> Adus: sure. you and crApple have some of the best lawyers in the worldJan 15 15:14
Adus-1 is NGSCB and hypervisor etc?Jan 15 15:14
schestowitzNo, they just have pocketsJan 15 15:14
schestowitzThey can drive the other side, like i4i, close to bankruptcy.Jan 15 15:15
schestowitzThat's how the 'law' works, it's a loophole"Jan 15 15:15
MinceR-1 is VT-x and AMD-VJan 15 15:15
Diablo-D3Adus: I think no userland software should ever talk directly to the hardwareJan 15 15:15
schestowitz"Money games" it was called in India last monthJan 15 15:15
MinceRand equivalentsJan 15 15:15
schestowitzMicrosoft was fine for it over thereJan 15 15:15
Diablo-D3Adus: btw, this doesn't mean this can't be microkerneled.Jan 15 15:15
schestowitzI guess Microsoft is even too corrupt for IndiaJan 15 15:15
schestowitzIndia found Microsoft guilty of tax evasion in 2008 iircJan 15 15:15
schestowitzmayeb 2009Jan 15 15:15
Diablo-D3Adus: it just means if you have multiple software userlands running, or multiple display servers, or multiple whateversJan 15 15:16
Diablo-D3Adus: you need something in the kernel space to finally hand this to the hardwareJan 15 15:16
Omar87schestowitz: thanks for mentioning us in the MS Anti-Counterfeiting articlsJan 15 15:16
Diablo-D3Adus: anything that is required for the machine to actually do basic functioning must be in kernel spaceJan 15 15:16
Omar87article*Jan 15 15:16
schestowitzOmar87: npJan 15 15:16
AdusDiablo-D3: Well, in which case. Wouldn't it make more sense to have drivers that talk direcetly with hardware in say, Ring 1, then drivers which can talk to the drivers in Ring 1 in Ring 2, exposed to Ring 3 Usermode. Jan 15 15:16
Diablo-D3Adus: depends how its setupJan 15 15:17
Aduswhere Ring 1 and 2 are not either usermode or kernel mode, but some specialised interop modeJan 15 15:17
Adus:pJan 15 15:17
Diablo-D3Adus: linux doesnt do it that wayJan 15 15:17
MinceRneither does VMSJan 15 15:17
AdusDiablo-D3: Well no, but who;s to say Linux, Windows or operating system y do it right?Jan 15 15:17
Adus:pJan 15 15:17
Diablo-D3Adus: its not a large issue, btw, rings are only on x86Jan 15 15:17
Diablo-D3ppc, for example, doesnt use those.Jan 15 15:17
MinceRDiablo-D3: i'm pretty sure they're also on VAXJan 15 15:17
Diablo-D3nor does anyone else, reallyJan 15 15:17
AdusDiablo-D3: I know, but the concept is still useful.Jan 15 15:18
AdusEven if in reality that isn't what happensJan 15 15:18
Diablo-D3Adus: its just a logical seperationJan 15 15:18
AdusIt's a good way of visualising thingsJan 15 15:18
Adusexactly.Jan 15 15:18
Diablo-D3microkernels do thatJan 15 15:18
MinceRi don't think it's useful to rely on rings that aren't enforced by hardware.Jan 15 15:18
Diablo-D3you have microkernel numebr zero that manages the memory and the buses and anything else absolutely coreJan 15 15:18
Diablo-D3and then no microkernel server after that can fuck it upJan 15 15:19
Diablo-D3(well, by theory)Jan 15 15:19
Adusmicrokernels have their own share of problems.Jan 15 15:19
Diablo-D3but if you're that paranoid, you might as well make your most basic part a hypervisor.Jan 15 15:19
amarsh04VAX has kernel mode, executive mode, supervisor mode and user modeJan 15 15:19
Diablo-D3which, technically, isnt a horrid solution.Jan 15 15:19
AdusDiablo-D3: That's exactly what we do on the 360.Jan 15 15:19
Diablo-D3Adus: a lot of boxes doJan 15 15:19
Diablo-D3IBM supercomputers doJan 15 15:19
Diablo-D3they have a hypervisor thats part firmware, part bootloader, part OS molestorJan 15 15:20
Adusand we rely on it to enforce things like, writable memory is not executable etc etcJan 15 15:20
Diablo-D3the machine is still live and administratable no matter how dead the OS isJan 15 15:20
AdusWith some other bits of pieces of magic of course.Jan 15 15:20
MinceRAdus: you do it for DRM thoughJan 15 15:20
Diablo-D3MinceR: not all DRMs are created equalJan 15 15:21
Diablo-D3I don't mind using a hypervisor for machine protectionJan 15 15:21
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Following @flipkartdotcom :) ; Hey send me those books soon; I need them for some time killingJan 15 15:21
MinceRi think it's better to keep the hypervisor ring for the hypervisor -- otherwise the OS won't be able to run under such a hypervisorJan 15 15:21
AdusMinceR: What you call DRM, we call protection in this case.Jan 15 15:21
MinceRAdus: i knowJan 15 15:21
MinceRAdus: you also like to call it "security" when it isn'tJan 15 15:21
Diablo-D3Adus: but yeah, like, if Microsoft hired me to run the company, Microsoft would be legitimately profiting forevermore.Jan 15 15:21
MinceRgot to make up a few names so you don't have to call it plainly "screwing the customer"Jan 15 15:21
AdusIt is security...Jan 15 15:21
Diablo-D3Adus: but I dont see that happening.Jan 15 15:22
Omar87schestowitz: 15 15:22
phIRCe-localTitle: Jordan to Become the Open Source Hub of the Middle East | Jordan Open Source Association .::. Size~: 23.96 KBJan 15 15:22
rnb_haha ->Jan 15 15:22
AdusMinceR: You can not deny that by it's sheer nature the 360 is pretty secure. There are very few known exploits that can run unsigned code, except hardware modes and some old firmware versions.Jan 15 15:22
rnb_ 15 15:22
phIRCe-localTitle: White House budget director blames old computers for ineffective government - The Hill's Hillicon Valley .::. Size~: 53.39 KBJan 15 15:22
AdusI'd say that's pretty secure.Jan 15 15:22
Adusmods*Jan 15 15:23
MinceRAdus: depends on what you're securing from whom.Jan 15 15:23
Diablo-D3Adus: the problem with the foss community is, well, Microsoft doesnt effectively use themJan 15 15:23
Diablo-D3Adus: theres millions of people out there who code FOSSJan 15 15:23
Diablo-D3Adus: for free.Jan 15 15:23
MinceRactually m$ does exploit the FLOSS communityJan 15 15:23
rnb_Omar87: i helped build FOSS computer labs in the west bankJan 15 15:23
MinceRremember all that bsd code in winblowsJan 15 15:23
rnb_Omar87: and that was in 2002Jan 15 15:23
schestowitzOmar87: thanks, got itJan 15 15:23
MinceRand monoJan 15 15:23
Diablo-D3MinceR: exploit != effectively use.Jan 15 15:23
AdusDiablo-D3: But most of them aren't very good. There are some exceptions, but the vast majority of programmers (FOSS or not) are not very good :pJan 15 15:23
Diablo-D3Adus: no, but the process generally removes bad code.Jan 15 15:24
Omar87rnb_: west bank? Which city?Jan 15 15:24
AdusIf you control who works for you, you can control that qualityJan 15 15:24
MinceRyet the vast majority of programmers do a better job than m$Jan 15 15:24
AdusMinceR: That's simply untrue.Jan 15 15:24
Diablo-D3Adus: I'd very much convert windows development to open source.Jan 15 15:24
rnb_Omar87: bethelehem, beit jala, beit sahour, that areaJan 15 15:24
MinceRif i were you, Adus, i wouldn't be so damn proud of it.Jan 15 15:24
AdusMinceR: MS software might not be perfect, but in most cases, it's better than the competition.Jan 15 15:24
MinceRAdus: m$ makes one of the crappiest web browsers in the world, for example.Jan 15 15:24
Diablo-D3Adus: I can't trust the security of software if I can't read the code and thousands of people haven't already audited itJan 15 15:24
rnb_Omar87: the deheishe refugee campJan 15 15:24
Omar87rnb_: oh yeah, I see. :-)Jan 15 15:24
MinceRAdus: they also make some of the crappiest OSes in the world.Jan 15 15:24
AdusMinceR: crappy by what measure?Jan 15 15:24
Omar87rnb_: I see.Jan 15 15:24
Diablo-D3Adus: windows should be open source.Jan 15 15:24
MinceRAdus: by a lot of measures.Jan 15 15:24
MinceRAdus: security, performance, reliability, usabilityJan 15 15:25
Omar87rnb_: I'm originally from Haifa, btw.Jan 15 15:25
AdusMinceR: No, that's not good enough. I want quantifiable measures.Jan 15 15:25
rnb_Omar87: really? i've been thereJan 15 15:25
MinceRAdus: most of the measures of sw quality are not quantifiable.Jan 15 15:25
Omar87rnb_: Dad's from Haifa and Mom's from Jenin.Jan 15 15:25
AdusOf course they are. all of those things you just said are.Jan 15 15:25
rnb_Omar87: i want to go back but i never seem to have the timeJan 15 15:25
MinceRAdus: except for all of them.Jan 15 15:26
rnb_Omar87: i went to jenin right after the massacreJan 15 15:26
rnb_Omar87: it was appalling and i cant believe the "official" results about what happened thereJan 15 15:26
MinceRAdus: m$ likes to quantify "security" as _publically_ acknowledged vulnerabilities, which is of course a lieJan 15 15:26
rnb_Omar87: in 2002Jan 15 15:26
Diablo-D3I agree with mincer hereJan 15 15:26
Diablo-D3microsoft wont fix vulnerabilities Jan 15 15:26
MinceRAdus: performance is measured via benchmarks, which are very difficult to make impartial, if possible at all.Jan 15 15:26
AdusMinceR: You have the typical excuse *everyone* uses when they say MS software is crap. "Oh, you can't measure it". Well then, sorry, but it's a baseless claim.Jan 15 15:26
Omar87rnb_: I really wish I could go too. The only time I've been to Jenin was when I was like 5 years old.Jan 15 15:26
MinceRAdus: no, i'm preempting your typical excuses as a m$ fanboy.Jan 15 15:27
rnb_Omar87: ah, yes, you really CANT go, huh?Jan 15 15:27
AdusMinceR: I don't know how you can realistically say the software is crap, yet have no basis to prove it and actually claim it can't be measured. Yet things that can be measured, like market share, are unimportant.Jan 15 15:27
AdusIt's just absurb.Jan 15 15:27
MinceRAdus: regarding reliability, there probably are usable measures and i expect m$ to lose very badly on those grounds.Jan 15 15:27
Omar87rnb_: No, not in the current situation, unfortunately.Jan 15 15:27
MinceRAdus: and usability is obviously a soft thing, so no measurements there.Jan 15 15:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Neelie Kroes did not answer questionq about software patents, she failed her exam and have to come back in second session: 15 15:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Kroes to face second hearing  |  Policies  |  EU governance  |  Commission | European Voice .::. Size~: 37.8 KBJan 15 15:28
MinceRAdus: i can show my experience for it.Jan 15 15:28
rnb_Omar87: you are live in jordan now? thats how i went to the west bank, via ammanJan 15 15:28
AdusMinceR: And which browser woyld you suggest one uses?Jan 15 15:28
rnb_Omar87: amman -> king hussein bridgeJan 15 15:28
MinceRAdus: i've been forced to use m$ products for a long time and they've always been disappointing.Jan 15 15:28
Omar87rnb_: Yup, I live in Jordan.Jan 15 15:28
Omar87rnb_: yeah, that's right.Jan 15 15:28
rnb_Omar87: i really liked ammanJan 15 15:29
MinceRAdus: that's down to a lot of preferences, but i expect that Mozilla Firefox is a good choice for many, including meJan 15 15:29
Omar87rnb_: cool. :-)Jan 15 15:29
AdusSee, I hate Firefox. Chrome I can do. Personally I use Opera.Jan 15 15:29
MinceR(mainly because it's extensible and because it supports most (if not all) w3c standards, unlike IE.)Jan 15 15:29
rnb_Omar87: come up with some free software reason for me to come over there :)Jan 15 15:29
AdusI find Firefox to be painfully slow, cpu and memory hungry.Jan 15 15:29
rnb_Omar87: i do foss consulting for governments!Jan 15 15:29
MinceRAdus: but pretty much all web browsers conform to w3c standards more than IE does.Jan 15 15:29
Omar87rnb_: A couple weeks ago we had Jacob Appelbaum here. :-)Jan 15 15:30
rnb_Omar87: i'd love to come to jordan and go to the west bank againJan 15 15:30
rnb_rnb_: no way.. i know jacob quite wellJan 15 15:30
MinceRAdus: which makes them by definition better web browsers than m$'s m$-web browser :>Jan 15 15:30
rnb_rnb_: he's from san francisco, tooJan 15 15:30
MinceRAdus: IE also has a history of being extremely insecureJan 15 15:30
Omar87rnb_: yup, he was here a couple weeks ago.Jan 15 15:30
rnb_rnb_: what the hell did he have to say though? he doesnt do stuffJan 15 15:30
cubezzzlynx ftwJan 15 15:30
MinceR(see the recent google issue as an example)Jan 15 15:30
MinceRbtw, i actually use multiple web browsersJan 15 15:30
cubezzzquickie weather report? lynxJan 15 15:31
rnb_Omar87: or rather, jacob doesnt do foss advocacyJan 15 15:31
AdusMinceR: That's not really measurable either, and it's my understanding that statistically MS patch the bugs quicker than other browser vendors historitically.Jan 15 15:31
Omar87rnb_: We also had Jacob Redding, Jon Philips, Joi Ito (a couple times) and even Michel Baker! :DJan 15 15:31
rnb_Omar87: why was he there?Jan 15 15:31
MinceRthere's at least one extra instance for Adobe Trash so that when it crashes or starts eating CPU, it can be killed and restarted.Jan 15 15:31
MinceRAdus: actually m$ likes to downplay bugs and leave some of them around for years.Jan 15 15:31
*Adus grumblesJan 15 15:31
MinceRAdus: an extreme example is AutoPlay.Jan 15 15:31
AdusDon't mention adope to meJan 15 15:31
Omar87rnb_: He came to give us a speech about the Tor project and the Cold Boot Attack.Jan 15 15:31
Adusadobe*Jan 15 15:32
MinceRAdus: i guess adobe was your best friend until you came up with silverblight.Jan 15 15:32
rnb_Omar87: not only that, i would say jacob is anti-palestinianJan 15 15:32
AdusMinceR: No, I've never liked Adobe. I can't say I'm a huge fan of silverlight eitherJan 15 15:32
Omar87rnb_: Nope, that's not true.Jan 15 15:32
MinceRAdus: oh, and also with your me-too-pdf format, the name of which i've forgotten. :>Jan 15 15:32
*zoobab80 (i=88ada281@gateway/web/freenode/x-nfatvmwqudsfabgo) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 15:32
rnb_Omar87: based on discussions i've had with him about it (although he dosnt really know much about it)Jan 15 15:32
DaemonFCAdus: Market share is flawed, for example, some stat tracking companies say IE is 50% of web surfers, some say it's still around 60%Jan 15 15:32
rnb_Omar87: it -is- trueJan 15 15:32
AdusI disagree with whole idea of browser plugins.Jan 15 15:32
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jan 15 15:32
DaemonFCof course one thing they do all agree on is that it's been falling consistently sicne 2004Jan 15 15:33
MinceRi disagree with allowing crap like Trash to run in a browserJan 15 15:33
Omar87rnb_: We took him down town for lunch and he clearly explained that he's against the massecre in Gaza.Jan 15 15:33
MinceRbut there are a couple of browser add-ons i could hardly live without :)Jan 15 15:33
MinceR(mostly AdBlock Plus and NoScript)Jan 15 15:33
AdusI'm very much of the opinion that a browser should browse the webJan 15 15:33
rnb_Omar87: whatever.. he's a chameleon, if you know what i meanJan 15 15:33
Adusnot mow my lawn and remind me to call my dad every weekJan 15 15:33
Adus:pJan 15 15:33
rnb_Omar87: his goal is popularityJan 15 15:33
Omar87rnb_: By the way, I really don't like for for who he is.Jan 15 15:34
DaemonFCAdus: If Microsoft was really concerned about Windows security, they'd give you the option of removing IEJan 15 15:34
MinceRAdus: that's the opinion chromium/chrome is aimed at, afaikJan 15 15:34
DaemonFCthe vast majority of security flaws in Windows are actually IE bugsJan 15 15:34
MinceRAdus: of course, there are a lot of light WebKit^W KHTML-based browsers for that too. :>Jan 15 15:34
DaemonFCover 3/4ths of themJan 15 15:34
AdusMinceR: Yeh, but Chrome is still a bit meh. I'm happy with Opera atm.Jan 15 15:34
AdusIf you don't use the extra junk in operaJan 15 15:34
Adusit's very speedy and niceJan 15 15:34
MinceRAdus: i'm not going to raise any issues with your being happy with operaJan 15 15:34
MinceRi used it for ages.Jan 15 15:34
Adusand I do like the gestures and landing page thingyJan 15 15:35
DaemonFCAdus: Try the 10.5 pre-alpha yet?Jan 15 15:35
MinceRi still go back to use the Links sidebar sometimes.Jan 15 15:35
DaemonFCit's faster than ChromeJan 15 15:35
rnb_Omar87: sorry, what do you mean? "I really don't like for for who he is"Jan 15 15:35
AdusDaemonFC: nah, I never upgrade my browser til it's stableJan 15 15:35
Adusbut I did see the benchmarksJan 15 15:35
MinceR(since Firefox' DownThemAll! doesn't do copying selected links from the list)Jan 15 15:35
Aduswhich showed it basically owned every other browser :pJan 15 15:35
Adusby a considerable margin in msot testsJan 15 15:35
cubezzzclosed sourceJan 15 15:35
MinceRi'd miss NoScript thoughJan 15 15:35
Omar87rnb_: I don't lik *him* for who he is. (As in, I don't really like him)Jan 15 15:35
DaemonFCWhich is odd considering that Opera has never led in performanceJan 15 15:35
MinceRit helps a lot with current bloated web pagesJan 15 15:35
DaemonFCthey've never been terrible eitherJan 15 15:36
AdusDaemonFC: Actually, I disagree. Opera used to be very very fastJan 15 15:36
Adusuntil about 5/6Jan 15 15:36
rnb_Omar87: i see.. i dont have anything against him but i have always found him kind of shallowJan 15 15:36
Adusthen they tailed behindJan 15 15:36
Adustil 9ishJan 15 15:36
rnb_Omar87: more interested in getting people to like him then anything elseJan 15 15:36
Omar87rnb_: Letting all the technical experience he has, I think he's so very naive.Jan 15 15:36
DaemonFCAdus: Opera 3.62 :DJan 15 15:36
rnb_Omar87: i'm very different than thatJan 15 15:36
DaemonFCfit on a floppy diskJan 15 15:36
DaemonFCstill ran on Windows 3.1Jan 15 15:36
Adushehe. I think Opera has always been pretty good personally. It's been consistently goodJan 15 15:37
Adussomething that can't be said for any other browser really.Jan 15 15:37
Omar87rnb_: lol! He told us he used to date his friend's wife! :PJan 15 15:37
rnb_Omar87: i agree, but that comes from what i mean.. he doesnt really want to take stands on things or have opinions... he just wants to be a popular internet "celebrity"Jan 15 15:37
AdusbrbJan 15 15:37
Omar87rnb_: "They had this sort of 'open marriage'..", he said. :PJan 15 15:37
rnb_Omar87: unfortunately, that DOES work in the internet worldJan 15 15:37
DaemonFCOmar87: Those are the best kindJan 15 15:37
rnb_Omar87: ick.. well, he was big in the SF "goth" scene.. they do weird stuff like thatJan 15 15:38
rnb_Omar87: anyway, enough about jacobJan 15 15:38
rnb_Omar87: i got to the west bank in march of 2002, right after there were 7 or 8 suicide bombers in like 10 daysJan 15 15:38
rnb_Omar87: and the IDF re-occupied bethlehemJan 15 15:38
rnb_Omar87: so i wasnt expecting it but there was a 24/7 curfew and open warfare happening all around usJan 15 15:39
Omar87rnb_: Please, excuse me, don't call them "suicide bombers".Jan 15 15:39
rnb_Omar87: sorry, it's just a habitJan 15 15:39
DaemonFCOmar87: Martyrs of Allah is it them?Jan 15 15:39
rnb_Omar87: martyrsJan 15 15:39
DaemonFC*thenJan 15 15:39
Omar87DaemonFC: shut upJan 15 15:40
DaemonFCyeah, do you guys like keep a rubber stamp and chalk up the murders?Jan 15 15:40
rnb_DaemonFC: yes, martyrs or shahidJan 15 15:40
DaemonFClike points or somethingJan 15 15:40
rnb_DaemonFC: i've seen IDF soldiers do that on their helmetsJan 15 15:40
MinceRare they not suicide bombers?Jan 15 15:40
rnb_DaemonFC: "confirmed kills"Jan 15 15:40
Omar87DaemonFC: okay then.. I'm gonna shut you up.Jan 15 15:40
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DaemonFCMinceR: They bomb and simultaneously commit suicideJan 15 15:41
MinceRthat's the image i gotJan 15 15:41
DaemonFCso I would say suicide bomber is an accurate descriptionJan 15 15:41
Omar87rnb_: You might feel slightly annoyed from the way I just treated DaemonFC, but believe me, he's doing this to himself, and not me.Jan 15 15:41
MinceRperhaps they're talking about something else?Jan 15 15:41
rnb_DaemonFC: someone who commits suicide in battle is historically seen as courageous in nearly every culture on earthJan 15 15:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sunil_abraham: #Google using human rights to whitewash its business blunders? #chinaJan 15 15:42
Omar87rnb_: True.Jan 15 15:42
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MinceRrnb_: usually it isn't done directly, thoughJan 15 15:42
DaemonFCit's a tragedy that someone can be so feeble minded as to actually get talked into doing thatJan 15 15:42
rnb_DaemonFC: even in US hollywood films.. the soldier who says "you guys go, i'll stay and hold them off and die, etc"Jan 15 15:42
DaemonFCrnb_: Against a military target, maybeJan 15 15:42
MinceRand not as the primary planJan 15 15:42
DaemonFCmurdering civilians is looked down upon almost universallyJan 15 15:42
Omar87DaemonFC: Why didn't you oppose the Kamikazis of Japan, huh?Jan 15 15:42
Diablo-D3Omar87: I dont think he was born yetJan 15 15:43
MinceRi think the kamikazis have stopped already :>Jan 15 15:43
DaemonFCOmar87: They were fighting a war against another militaryJan 15 15:43
rnb_DaemonFC: israel makes itself a military targetJan 15 15:43
DaemonFCand yeah, MinceR is rightJan 15 15:43
Omar87DaemonFC: oh, yeah! I know why! Because "Fox News" didn't tell you that?? :DJan 15 15:43
MinceRbut yes, as far as i know they were suicide bombersJan 15 15:43
DaemonFCthe war didn't end well for themJan 15 15:43
DaemonFCrnb_: The murder of unarmed civilians is just pure cowardiceJan 15 15:43
Omar87DaemonFC: Okay? Then the the same thing happened to the Palestinians as well!Jan 15 15:43
DaemonFCno god worth worshipping would tell you to butcher unarmed civiliansJan 15 15:44
rnb_DaemonFC: the IDF kills unarmed civilians nearly every single dayJan 15 15:44
Omar87DaemonFC: They were raped, mass-murreded, they got kicked out of their own houses and villages.Jan 15 15:44
rnb_DaemonFC: so are they cowards?Jan 15 15:44
DaemonFCrnb_: So your goal is to lower yourself to their standards?Jan 15 15:44
DaemonFCIs it a contest?Jan 15 15:44
rnb_DaemonFC: of course not, the point is that your statement is incoherentJan 15 15:44
Omar87DaemonFC: most of them saw their children and parents getting slaughtered brutally right in front of them.Jan 15 15:44
DaemonFCI'd still pick on someone my own sizeJan 15 15:45
Omar87rnb_: It's no use. Don't waste your time with him.Jan 15 15:45
DaemonFCnot draw unarmed women and children into the messJan 15 15:45
DaemonFCMuslims do just that, they don't discern their targetsJan 15 15:46
DaemonFCthey don't just take on uniformed soldiers, they kill innocent people, intentionallyJan 15 15:46
rnb_DaemonFC: that's the dumbest thing i've ever heardJan 15 15:46
Diablo-D3you knowJan 15 15:46
DaemonFCand until that stops, I have zero sympathy for you or your causeJan 15 15:46
Diablo-D3the alpha cpu family was pretty niceJan 15 15:47
rnb_DaemonFC: i dont really think anyone cares if you have sympathy or notJan 15 15:47
rnb_DaemonFC: who the hell are you?Jan 15 15:47
Diablo-D3rnb_: hes a trollJan 15 15:47
Diablo-D3most of us have him on ignoreJan 15 15:47
rnb_oh, i seeJan 15 15:47
DaemonFCrnb_: You're right, because I'd be one of your victims, given the chanceJan 15 15:47
DaemonFCthat's just how you people operate I thinkJan 15 15:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Spanish Presidency renames the ACTA in the Trade Agreement Against Forgery : 15 15:48
DaemonFCYou don't just fight the people who have done something to youJan 15 15:48
rnb_DaemonFC: you people? i'm from a steelworker family in northeast ohio, roman catholicJan 15 15:48
rnb_DaemonFC: so who is "you people" ?Jan 15 15:48
DaemonFCyou murder anyone that's convenientJan 15 15:48
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DaemonFCMuslim terrorists are a good definition of irrational lashing outJan 15 15:49
MinceRnah, roman catholics have ways of murdering people that don't involve killing themselves :>Jan 15 15:49
Omar87rnb_: Just ignore him, of course that's unless you have no problem of getting arrested for murder tonight. :-)Jan 15 15:49
rnb_MinceR: well, we kill ourselves with guilt-induced neurosesJan 15 15:49
rnb_MinceR: :)Jan 15 15:49
rnb_Omar87: :) i will ignore himJan 15 15:50
DaemonFCMinceR: Catholics could never be suicide bombers cause none of them are really into it that muchJan 15 15:50
Omar87rnb_: lol :-PJan 15 15:50
rnb_Omar87: did you ever do work with the arabeyes project?Jan 15 15:50
DaemonFCthey'd be like "You go first" "No, you go first!"Jan 15 15:50
Omar87rnb_: Nope. But trust me. they're not as good as they sound.Jan 15 15:50
rnb_Omar87: i only worked with them on a couple things a long time agoJan 15 15:51
Omar87rnb_: I see.Jan 15 15:51
rnb_Omar87: actually, i'd really like to get back involved with middle east FOSS stuffJan 15 15:51
DaemonFCMinceR: Catholicism is what you say you're into if you're going into politicsJan 15 15:51
rnb_Omar87: for a long time, i've mostly been working on FOSS stuff in latin americaJan 15 15:51
DaemonFCone of those religious, but not too religious dealsJan 15 15:51
rnb_Omar87: but, like i said, i miss the middle eastJan 15 15:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Spanish Presidency on Compat: "a constructive search for efficient and non-discriminatory solutions will be pursued" 15 15:52
*gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 15:52
DaemonFCeither that or MethodismJan 15 15:52
Omar87rnb_: Sure! Just give me a message any time you feel like visiting Jordan. :-)Jan 15 15:52
Omar87rnb_: Cool!Jan 15 15:52
rnb_Omar87: do you help organize with FOSS groups in jordan?Jan 15 15:52
AdusI should probably actually do some work today, I've spent all day talkin to you guys :pJan 15 15:52
MinceR165017 < DaemonFC> MinceR: Catholicism is what you say you're into if you're going into politicsJan 15 15:52
MinceRonly in Jesusland.Jan 15 15:52
Omar87rnb_: We, at Jordan Open Source Association are planning for some good stuff.Jan 15 15:53
MinceRthere are more enlightened countries on Earth. :>Jan 15 15:53
rnb_Omar87: i would like to help bring foss technology and hardware to the west bank againJan 15 15:53
Omar87rnb_: I'm one of the founders of the Jordan Open Source Association.Jan 15 15:53
DaemonFCMinceR: I remember seeing a poll at one point where Americans said they trusted athiests less than MuslimsJan 15 15:53
AdusUs poor atheists :pJan 15 15:53
DaemonFCI remember wondering which athiests hijacked planesJan 15 15:53
rnb_Omar87: like, help set up computer labs in deheishe for studentsJan 15 15:53
DaemonFCor bombed somethingJan 15 15:53
Omar87rnb_: you have a twitter?Jan 15 15:53
*Diablo-D3 goes back to eating babies and running for the senateJan 15 15:53
MinceRDaemonFC: i rest my case.Jan 15 15:54
MinceRDiablo-D3: what, you're a roman catholic?Jan 15 15:54
MinceRor protestant?Jan 15 15:54
rnb_Omar87: and help set up media labs for people doing independent media from the west bank.. i worked with bethlehem tv on a project like thatJan 15 15:54
Diablo-D3neither, I was making a jokeJan 15 15:54
MinceRor some other kind of christian?Jan 15 15:54
MinceRoh.Jan 15 15:54
*Diablo-D3 whaps MinceR Jan 15 15:54
rnb_Omar87: hm, no, i dont use twitter.. i used to use ... but mmmJan 15 15:54
*MinceR hhtmls Diablo-D3 Jan 15 15:54
AdusI mean, people have been atheists and done evil things. But there has never been an atheist who has done evil things because they are an atheist I can think of.Jan 15 15:54
Omar87rnb_: cool!Jan 15 15:54
AdusThat's not the case for the religion :pJan 15 15:54
rnb_Omar87: i'll msg you my emailJan 15 15:54
DaemonFCMinceR: I think I'll be a Unitarian Universalist so nobody knows what the hell I believe inJan 15 15:55
Diablo-D3soJan 15 15:55
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 15:55
Omar87rnb_: Sure.Jan 15 15:55
Diablo-D3how the hell did we get fromJan 15 15:55
Diablo-D3hating microsoftJan 15 15:55
MinceRDaemonFC: neither will you?Jan 15 15:55
Diablo-D3toJan 15 15:55
Diablo-D3hating religionJan 15 15:55
DaemonFCMinceR: ExactlyJan 15 15:55
MinceRDiablo-D3: m$ is a cult and a religion.Jan 15 15:55
rnb_if you send me an email, we can continue to talk thereJan 15 15:55
MinceRDiablo-D3: and so is crApple.Jan 15 15:55
*Diablo-D3 finds a peice of white plastic and beats MinceR with itJan 15 15:55
*MinceR breaks it on impactJan 15 15:55
MinceRoops, poor quality.Jan 15 15:55
Diablo-D3goddamnit china!Jan 15 15:56
AdusDiablo-D3: Maybe not Microsoft. But Apple is almost like a religion :pJan 15 15:56
MinceRno, not almostJan 15 15:56
AdusApple fanboism.Jan 15 15:56
MinceRand m$ is just as much of a religionJan 15 15:56
Diablo-D3ms is just mass apathy.Jan 15 15:56
MinceRwith basic dogma like "we've got the best people and the best products" and the doctrine of Equally EvilJan 15 15:56
DaemonFCAdus: Crapple fanboys are the only thing more irritating that Microsoft fanboysJan 15 15:56
Diablo-D3I dunnoJan 15 15:56
AdusI think Nintendo fanboys are more annoying actually.Jan 15 15:57
Diablo-D3some of those booth babes apple has I wouldnt mind hittingJan 15 15:57
DaemonFCAdus: Nothing wrong with NintendoJan 15 15:57
Diablo-D3probably all lesbians though :<Jan 15 15:57
DaemonFCI like my Wii :)Jan 15 15:57
AdusDaemonFC: No, but the fanboys are...Jan 15 15:57
MinceRdunno, there's a lot of overlap in the irritatingness range of m$ fanboys and crApple fanboys.Jan 15 15:57
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MinceRi don't hear so much about Nintendo fanboys, but maybe that's because i care little about consoles.Jan 15 15:57
DaemonFCMinceR: There's a much greater ratio of Crapple fanboys given their customer base sizeJan 15 15:58
AdusMinceR: Very few people queue up at midnight to get their hands on the latest MS software :pJan 15 15:58
MinceRDaemonFC: that's probably true.Jan 15 15:58
DaemonFCMicrosoft fanboys are less rabid and more dilated per capitaJan 15 15:58
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MinceRAdus: but how many people hold parties celebrating the release of a minor update to OSX?Jan 15 15:58
AdusMinceR: Oh come on, that was such a bad marketing stuntJan 15 15:58
MinceRAdus: organized by crApple, no less? :>Jan 15 15:58
AdusHow many people actualyl did it? :pJan 15 15:58
DaemonFCthe net result is that it seems like there's 10 times as many Crapple fanboys and they're twice as annoyingJan 15 15:58
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 15:58
MinceRyes, it was a bad marketing stunt in an endless series of bad marketing stuntsJan 15 15:59
AdusMicrosoft fanboys are Microsoft fanboys out of convenience. Jan 15 15:59
MinceRi've seen people bragging about doing it in this channel.Jan 15 15:59
AdusApple fanboys are the sort of people who are in mid conversation with you, and you move your wrist, your watch catches the light and they goJan 15 15:59
Adus"OOooh, shiny"Jan 15 15:59
Adusand lose their thread of conversationJan 15 15:59
Adus:pJan 15 15:59
DaemonFCAdus: almost nobody uses Microsoft software because they want to or because they enjoy buying itJan 15 15:59
MinceRnopeJan 15 15:59
MinceRthey'd say "ooooh, shiny... but my hypePhone is shinier!"Jan 15 15:59
MinceRand try to derail the conversationJan 15 15:59
MinceRwell, they don't pronounce the "hype" part correctly thoughJan 15 16:00
DaemonFCMinceR: And my hypePheone like totally has a clock, AND I only agreed to a two year AT&T contract to get this $500 stealJan 15 16:00
DaemonFC:)Jan 15 16:00
MinceRlolJan 15 16:00
AdusI had an iPhone, I was unimpressed. Didn't bother getting a 3G or 3GS. Switched to something else.Jan 15 16:00
DaemonFCAren't I just the smarted thing that ever lives? :DJan 15 16:00
MinceRi have a Qtek 9100, but i'm planning to switch away from winmob.Jan 15 16:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sunil_abraham: @gkjohn What about all the orkut arrests in India? Was there any push back to requests from the Indian police?Jan 15 16:01
MinceRsure it multitasks, but it's otherwise slow and buggy as hell.Jan 15 16:01
AdusI get a free winmob phone from work, so I use that. :pJan 15 16:01
DaemonFCWindows multitasks too, it can boot and crash at the same timeJan 15 16:01
AdusOnly have to pay for my personal calls.Jan 15 16:01
MinceRi guess it was a step up from Palm OS 5 anyway.Jan 15 16:01
AdusI actually quite liek WinMob, and Android actually.Jan 15 16:01
MinceRi actually quite hate winmob and i don't like android much eitherJan 15 16:02
DaemonFCAdus: I remember installing Windows 98 and having the INSTALLER bsod!Jan 15 16:02
AdusI was thinking about getting that new Samsung Android phoneJan 15 16:02
MinceRDaemonFC: winxp has that feature tooJan 15 16:02
DaemonFClike before it even rebooted into WindowsJan 15 16:02
MinceRDaemonFC: PLUS it automatically reboots on that BSoDJan 15 16:02
MinceR"NOW how much would you pay?"Jan 15 16:02
AdusNo BSOD on Xbox, we get the BBOD instead :pJan 15 16:02
DaemonFCYeah, it reboots before you can see what the error message saysJan 15 16:02
DaemonFCthats always niceJan 15 16:02
AdusDaemonFC: It's nearly always IRQL_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUALJan 15 16:03
Adusif in doubt, assume it's thatJan 15 16:03
Adus:pJan 15 16:03
DaemonFCmmhmJan 15 16:03
DaemonFCwireless USB antennaJan 15 16:03
DaemonFCdoes it nearly every timeJan 15 16:03
AdusAs that the most common error drivers cause, when they return "device_gone" or whatever it is.Jan 15 16:03
MinceRhow intuitive.Jan 15 16:03
MinceRi've always assumed IRQL_LESS_THAN_EQUAL to mean device_gone!Jan 15 16:03
DaemonFCAdus: And it's because Windows crams as much shit as it can onto each IRQ channelJan 15 16:03
AdusDon't you remember when you had the set the IRQ Levels yourself? :pJan 15 16:04
MinceRi doJan 15 16:04
DaemonFCand Windows 7 won't let you fix the problem by manually assigning oneJan 15 16:04
MinceRand i remember things actually workingJan 15 16:04
AdusI also remember spending hours trying to get a game to workJan 15 16:04
Adus:pJan 15 16:04
MinceRunlike win98 which sometimes installs the same hardware more than once, and then they clash.Jan 15 16:04
MinceRand you can't get rid of either.Jan 15 16:04
DaemonFCthe last time Microsoft managed to do anything close to right was probably DOSJan 15 16:04
MinceRthen there's Linux where there's never been any IRQ issues at all, somehow.Jan 15 16:05
DaemonFCit was simple, stupid, got out of the way when something that had real work to do told it toJan 15 16:05
AdusMinceR: Linux has it's own share of driver hell.Jan 15 16:05
MinceRDaemonFC: it was easy for them, they bought the code others stole from DRI.Jan 15 16:05
MinceRAdus: yes, when the hw manufacturer can't be bothered to develop a driver or support its development.Jan 15 16:05
DaemonFCAdus: Mostly the binary blob crapJan 15 16:05
AdusI think ultimately, it boils down to the same thing on all platforms: Most hardware developers *suck* at writing drivers competently.Jan 15 16:05
MinceRAdus: and when they end up making a proprietary driverJan 15 16:05
DaemonFCI don't think I've ever had any driver included in the kernel bomb out on me for no reasonJan 15 16:05
DaemonFCit's pretty much always been proprietary video driversJan 15 16:06
MinceRi don't think i had either.Jan 15 16:06
AdusDaemonFC: I've never had a signed driver for Win64 bomb out on me.Jan 15 16:06
MinceRAdus: because you never had drivers for win64? :>Jan 15 16:06
AdusIf drivers have been somewhat evaluated by Microsoft and I assume the kernel maintainersJan 15 16:06
DaemonFCAdus: All 64-bit Windows drivers have to be signed, so that means that the defective Netgear driver that BSODs must be signedJan 15 16:06
Adusthey are generally pretty good.Jan 15 16:06
DaemonFCthere's no way Microsoft used that thing more than 5 minutes without a crashJan 15 16:07
AdusDaemonFC: By default, yeh, You can turn that off if you want.Jan 15 16:07
DaemonFCso why do they rubber stamp it?Jan 15 16:07
MinceRmoney.Jan 15 16:07
AdusYou get a little "Driver Testing Mode" thingy on your desktop :pJan 15 16:07
DaemonFCAdus: No, it's mandatoryJan 15 16:07
DaemonFCas of Vista SP2Jan 15 16:07
AdusDaemonFC: No, it's not.Jan 15 16:07
AdusYou can switch it offJan 15 16:07
AdusIn Win 7Jan 15 16:07
DaemonFCMicrosoft removed that abilityJan 15 16:07
AdusI have it off.Jan 15 16:07
DaemonFCAdus: I remember being pissed about that cause SP2 broke PeerGuardianJan 15 16:08
DaemonFCused to be you could boot with the driver signature check disabledJan 15 16:08
Adus 15 16:08
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DaemonFCMicrosoft is using that to fleece hardware makers, not to make sure the drivers won't randomly kill WindowsJan 15 16:08
AdusYou can do it from the command line, can't remember what the command is thoughJan 15 16:08
Adussomething DISABLE_INTEGRITY_CHECKSJan 15 16:09
AdusIt puts your machine into test mode, but it does work.Jan 15 16:09
MinceRi know how to do it from the boot command line of a livecd. :>Jan 15 16:09
AdusHow else are you going to write drivers for x64 otherwise? :pJan 15 16:09
DaemonFCIt's really offensive that Microsoft not only locks out people that can't afford to pay the signing fee, but doesn't even use the signing as a form of quality controlJan 15 16:09
MinceRhm, x64, the architecture of the famous 8064 and its successors. wait, what?Jan 15 16:09
DaemonFCit's all about the moneyJan 15 16:09
DaemonFCand the controlJan 15 16:09
AdusDaemonFC: The drivers do have to meet certain standards.Jan 15 16:10
AdusI imagine the process isn't perfect.Jan 15 16:10
DaemonFCyeah, the mooolah standardJan 15 16:10
DaemonFC:DJan 15 16:10
MinceR:>Jan 15 16:10
MinceRimagine that. a process at m$ not being perfect!Jan 15 16:10
DaemonFCoh, I'm certain that MS has the Moolah Standard down perfectlyJan 15 16:11
DaemonFCabsolutely sureJan 15 16:11
DaemonFCthat's the standard to meet to get your driver signed, fork over some lettuceJan 15 16:11
DaemonFC:DJan 15 16:11
DaemonFCsome cabbageJan 15 16:11
DaemonFCsome greenbacks evenJan 15 16:11
DaemonFCsome mucho dinero is also niceJan 15 16:12
AdusOur canteen does do rather awesome breakfasts.Jan 15 16:12
MinceRlolJan 15 16:12
MinceRso after all m$ managed to do something well?Jan 15 16:13
MinceRi guess it must be outsourced or something.Jan 15 16:13
DaemonFCAdus: Did they insist on integrating Monoposoft Idiot Exploiter into your intestines?Jan 15 16:13
AdusNo, but they do cook a cracking sausage :pJan 15 16:14
AdusSausage and bacon bap.... mmmmhhhhhhJan 15 16:14
Adusand a coffeeJan 15 16:14
Adus:pJan 15 16:14
DaemonFCmmhm, IE is going to burst out of your chestJan 15 16:14
DaemonFCI saw that movieJan 15 16:14
AdusLike in Alien?Jan 15 16:14
DaemonFCgoo lay its eggs somewhereJan 15 16:14
DaemonFCyeahJan 15 16:14
amarsh04as in AL*IE*NJan 15 16:14
AdusYeh, it's possible. But damn, it's worth it.Jan 15 16:15
MinceRyeah, better end your pointless life, giving birth to a Xenomorph.Jan 15 16:15
DaemonFCdust off, nuke the site from orbit, install LinuxJan 15 16:15
DaemonFCit's the only way to be sureJan 15 16:15
AdusWe actually have 1 Linux server in this building!Jan 15 16:15
AdusRunning Madriva I believe it is.Jan 15 16:16
MinceRwhat for?Jan 15 16:16
DaemonFCmmmhm, leak some pictures of it outJan 15 16:16
AdusMandriva*Jan 15 16:16
AdusMinceR: It's running our Perforce server.Jan 15 16:16
DaemonFCBallmer dry humping it would be a nice shot to getJan 15 16:16
MinceRoh-so-perfect winblows can't manage that task?Jan 15 16:16
Adusit was Windows Server 2003, but they moved to Linux.Jan 15 16:16
MinceRor it merely needs a machine with ten times the power to do it?Jan 15 16:16
AdusOur Head of CTG dude is a bit of a Linux nut :pJan 15 16:16
MinceRand you haven't burned him at the stake yet?Jan 15 16:17
DaemonFCAnd he didn't get fired over this?Jan 15 16:17
DaemonFCAdus: Hotmail ran on FreeBSD for yearsJan 15 16:17
DaemonFCI have a hunch it still doesJan 15 16:17
AdusNo, he got permission. he sent out benchmarks. Windows Server 2008 R2 was basically identical performance, but it was in alpha at the timeJan 15 16:17
Adusand we desperately needed a new box and new OS, so they went with LinuxJan 15 16:17
DaemonFCthey just make it look like Windows can handle itJan 15 16:17
MinceRalso, m$ web servers are hidden behind akamai's gnu/linux serversJan 15 16:18
DaemonFCjust like I'm sure that Apple wouldn't ever use OS X Server to host Apple.comJan 15 16:18
MinceRthey say it's cancer, but they can't live without itJan 15 16:18
DaemonFCthey've got it rigged, it's still Red Hat Enterprise Linux probablyJan 15 16:18
AdusWe actually do run Windows on most of our servers.Jan 15 16:18
AdusXbox Live runs on Windows :)Jan 15 16:19
MinceRwho would have guessed that "The Best Developers In The World" couldn't code a "Server OS" that they themselves would trust enough to use?Jan 15 16:19
DaemonFCyeah, Windows will never be good enough to handle that kind of abuseJan 15 16:19
MinceRand instead they use an OS written by people they look down on?Jan 15 16:19
DaemonFCI just can't see them using Windows on anything that importantJan 15 16:19
DaemonFCit's like asking for troubleJan 15 16:19
DaemonFCAdus: It's a toyJan 15 16:20
DaemonFCso yeah, appropriateJan 15 16:20
AdusWe use Windows for XBL. THe only Linux server I know we have, is that one Perforce one :pJan 15 16:20
DaemonFCthey probably know they'd never live it down if news leaked that they were running XBOX Live on LinuxJan 15 16:20
DaemonFCXBOX Live is customers exploitation, Microsoft's hallmarkJan 15 16:21
DaemonFCbeat them for cashJan 15 16:21
DaemonFCturn them upside down and flog til it rains outJan 15 16:21
MinceRalso, they've based the newest Sidekick OS on NetBSDJan 15 16:21
MinceRnot winmobJan 15 16:21
DaemonFCMinceR: Someone was flashing around a Windows Mobile phone once, so I looked at it, played around with it a bitJan 15 16:22
DaemonFCwas not impressedJan 15 16:22
DaemonFCslow, buggy, not that many good appsJan 15 16:22
MinceR"slow" doesn't even begin to describe itJan 15 16:23
DaemonFCI told him to carry it in his back pocket so that pocket Internet Explorer could be firmly integrated to his assJan 15 16:23
MinceRit takes the damn thing at least 3 seconds to abort a call from pressing the buttonJan 15 16:23
AdusThey are having an office move around today, now my team aren't moving desks. But everyone else moving around is starting to annoy me.Jan 15 16:23
DaemonFCyeah, I was like "What the hell???"Jan 15 16:23
DaemonFCI thought it had froze upJan 15 16:23
DaemonFCit did freeze up laterJan 15 16:23
AdusI refused to give up my desk. I have a window hereJan 15 16:24
Adusand I like itJan 15 16:24
DaemonFCthe only good thing about Windows Mobile is that you can install Opera and ignore IEJan 15 16:24
DaemonFCbut Opera runs on good phones, like BlackberryJan 15 16:24
MinceRblackberry sucksJan 15 16:25
MinceRthey couldn't even manage to put a keyboard and a touchscreen into one deviceJan 15 16:25
DaemonFCBlackberry actually impressed me with their app collectionJan 15 16:25
AdusWant to see my desk? It's cool :pJan 15 16:25
MinceRdoes it have "My Computer" on it?Jan 15 16:25
AdusI mean my physical desk, not desktop :pJan 15 16:25
MinceRi figured that's how they imagined desksJan 15 16:26
DaemonFCAdus: I want you to plant a virus in the XBOX Live server, then once Microsoft's shields are down, the entire world can mount a counteroffensiveJan 15 16:26
DaemonFChow's that?Jan 15 16:26
MinceRand beside "My Computer", there ought to be "Recycle Bin"Jan 15 16:26
DaemonFCtotally originalJan 15 16:26
Adus 15 16:26
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phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 15 16:26
MinceRfull of dell crap, i seeJan 15 16:26
AdusMicrosoft use Dell and HP Hardware usually.Jan 15 16:27
MinceRdell fits windows pretty well, they're both unreliable crap :>Jan 15 16:27
MinceRalso it fits xboxJan 15 16:27
AdusI'm not exactly tidy, as you can see :DJan 15 16:28
MinceRyeah, at least one PC there has a virus infectionJan 15 16:28
MinceRby the virus called "windows"Jan 15 16:28
Adus2 PCs, 2 Xbox 360s :pJan 15 16:28
DaemonFCI hate DellJan 15 16:28
DaemonFCI hate HPJan 15 16:28
MinceRi don't know hp's computers well enough to hate themJan 15 16:29
AdusDo you hate cute little puppies?Jan 15 16:29
MinceRbut i sure as hell hate their printersJan 15 16:29
MinceRAdus: i actually hate dogs tooJan 15 16:29
DaemonFCAdus: Dell rips the heads off of puppiesJan 15 16:29
Aduskittens?Jan 15 16:29
MinceRkittens ruleJan 15 16:29
DaemonFCand passes them to HP, which drinks the bloodJan 15 16:29
AdusHow about penguins? :pJan 15 16:29
MinceRi haven't met penguins in person :)Jan 15 16:29
AdusThe penguin was perfectly awesome until Linux hijacked it.Jan 15 16:29
Adus:pJan 15 16:29
MinceRno, it became perfectly awesome when Linux adopted it.Jan 15 16:30
AdusI have a penguin teddy and everytime someone at work sees it, they are like "So, you like Linux?" it's like "Umm, no. I like penguins"Jan 15 16:30
Adus:pJan 15 16:30
MinceRpentJan 15 16:30
MinceRi meanJan 15 16:30
MinceRpwntJan 15 16:31
DaemonFC 15 16:31
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Full Metal Jacket - Motivational Speech .::. Size~: 127.37 KBJan 15 16:31
AdusI'm planning on taking the penguin back some dayJan 15 16:31
AdusI'm just trying to figure out how.Jan 15 16:31
MinceRyou could drop windows, GPLv3 it, work with CodeWeavers to make Wine perfectly compatible with it and offer Microsoft(r) Linux(tm)Jan 15 16:33
MinceR(not SuSE Edition, or one of the others)Jan 15 16:33
AdusWhy do Microsoft need to do that, I thoguht we practically controlled novell these days? :pJan 15 16:33
MinceRsure, but you still keep a pretense of not doing soJan 15 16:33
AdusOopsJan 15 16:34
MinceRyou could acquire novell though, as a step of the aboveJan 15 16:34
MinceRand then rename Microsoft Linux SuSE Edition to plain Microsoft Linux :>Jan 15 16:34
AdusWould that be the honorable thing to do? :pJan 15 16:34
MinceRdoes honor matter to you?Jan 15 16:34
AdusTo me? of course.Jan 15 16:34
MinceRdoes profit matter more to you?Jan 15 16:35
DaemonFCthat scene of FMJ makes me laugh every timeJan 15 16:36
AdusMinceR: How much I get of that profit matters more to me :pJan 15 16:36
MinceRAdus: that explains why you work for m$Jan 15 16:37
MinceRAdus: but then why do you ask what the honorable thing would be?Jan 15 16:37
AdusPublic image.Jan 15 16:37
MinceRicJan 15 16:37
MinceRwell, you've lost that battle alreadyJan 15 16:37
AdusMicrosoft are actually pretty respected by the general public, and you already know that. They were voted Americas most trusted company in 2008 :pJan 15 16:38
MinceRusians are the "general public" now?Jan 15 16:38
MinceRi thought there were other parts of Earth tooJan 15 16:38
AdusAs they tell us when we do our anti-corruption training :pJan 15 16:38
MinceRi happen to be living on such a partJan 15 16:38
MinceRi can see why usians respect m$Jan 15 16:39
MinceRthey're living the New American Dream(r)Jan 15 16:39
MinceR(do anything it takes to get profit, rip people off, tread on people and live happily with a lot of money)Jan 15 16:39
AdusI bet most people would own MS given the chance. Jan 15 16:40
MinceRbut guess what, the Cult of the Almighty Money is somewhat weaker in other parts.Jan 15 16:40
AdusI would. I'd quite like that cash.Jan 15 16:40
MinceRi would, and i've already told what i'd do with it.Jan 15 16:40
AdusSay you couldn't change itJan 15 16:40
Adusyou were just a silent partner? :pJan 15 16:40
MinceRthen i'd sell my part of itJan 15 16:40
MinceRbetter get the money now, before the Evil Empire crumbles anyway :>Jan 15 16:41
Adusand make money off the poor people MS have trodden on? :pJan 15 16:41
MinceRmake money off the fool who gave me that part of m$ in the first place.Jan 15 16:41
AdusI have some shares.Jan 15 16:41
MinceRnot surprising.Jan 15 16:42
AdusIn MS and AppleJan 15 16:42
MinceRstill not surprisingJan 15 16:42
AdusWe also get an apple discount, which is nice.Jan 15 16:42
MinceRyeah, if you plan to also get ripped off by crApple.Jan 15 16:42
AdusI can't remember how much it is of Apple MS hold shares for.Jan 15 16:42
MinceRthen you can buy winblows, put it on the crApple iDiot Box, and be doubly ripped offJan 15 16:42
MinceRand be happy and proud of itJan 15 16:42
AdusHehe.Jan 15 16:43
MinceRand when it's bricked the next time crApple breaks Boot Camp, you can just buy another!Jan 15 16:43
AdusWell, as MS are a major shareholder in Apple, I don't see the problem really :pJan 15 16:43
Adusand both companies have a history of working together, especially now apple seem to have fallen out with Google.Jan 15 16:43
AdusI'd be very surprised if Apple and MS don't cosy up against Google madness :pJan 15 16:44
MinceRthey're basically doing the same thing anywayJan 15 16:44
MinceRit's just that crApple isn't that good at itJan 15 16:44
MinceRi hope they won't be able to take m$'s place after m$ diesJan 15 16:44
AdusThat's going to be a long time comingJan 15 16:44
MinceRthat's what i expect a m$ shareholder to sayJan 15 16:45
Adusand if it does happen, which I still don't think is likely to be any time inthe near future, it will be a slow drawn out affairJan 15 16:45
Aduslike Sun :pJan 15 16:45
MinceRit's already a slow drawn-out affairJan 15 16:45
AdusWhat makes you say that? The last 2 finanical reports have been pretty promising given the economic climate.Jan 15 16:45
AdusNot to mention Windows 7 is the fastest selling version of Windows ever.Jan 15 16:46
MinceRm$ losing its grip on installed base and mindshare is what makes me say that.Jan 15 16:46
AdusMinceR: Yeh, to the degree of rounding errors. Nothing significant.Jan 15 16:46
MinceRso you're saying that GNU/Linux appearing preinstalled (in some cases in an instant-boot version) on consumer PCs is a "rounding error"?Jan 15 16:47
MinceRand you're saying that Firefox taking the first place in installed base from IE in Germany is a "rounding error", too?Jan 15 16:47
AdusMinceR: yes, a tiny tiny tiny proportion of sold PcsJan 15 16:47
Adus:pJan 15 16:47
AdusOk, Firefox/IE I'll give youJan 15 16:47
MinceRactually, Asus is going to ship SplashTop on all of its mainboards, afaikJan 15 16:47
MinceRand m$ has nothing to offer to run on smartbooksJan 15 16:48
Adusand the vast majority of consumers will still buy a PC with windows on top.Jan 15 16:48
MinceRand m$ has already lost the battle for the mobile phone market.Jan 15 16:48
MinceR...which is getting more importantJan 15 16:48
AdusBut mobile has never been a big part of MS's business. So they haven't lost anything. So if they can make any ground in the futureJan 15 16:49
Adusthat's a gain/winJan 15 16:49
Adusnot a loseJan 15 16:49
MinceRstrange, i seem to remember something called WinCE and WinMob a while agoJan 15 16:49
AdusNeither of which were insanely popularJan 15 16:49
MinceRalso, there was a lot of agony about trying to get people to buy winmob and zuneJan 15 16:49
MinceRand some people say that mobile phones are going to take over many tasks that PCs do nowJan 15 16:50
DaemonFCZunes are too bad of a deal to be worth consideringJan 15 16:50
MinceRthe main point here is that consumers are realizing that there isn't only windowsJan 15 16:50
DaemonFCthey've got the price of an ipod, less features than a $20 Chinese MP3 player off ebay, and they only work with WindowsJan 15 16:51
MinceRand they're being held hostage less by their appsJan 15 16:51
MinceRDaemonFC: so what? hypePods got successful with roughly the same parameters :>Jan 15 16:51
DaemonFCZune would need an upgrade to earn the privilege to be called a jokeJan 15 16:52
MinceRthe have the price of a hypePod, less features than a $20 Chinese MP3 player off ebay, and they only work with macos :>Jan 15 16:52
DaemonFCMinceR: Not soJan 15 16:52
DaemonFCiPod will work on LinuxJan 15 16:52
MinceRor it won'tJan 15 16:52
DaemonFCit willJan 15 16:52
MinceRdepending on whether the newest stupid trick crApple pulls will be cracked or notJan 15 16:52
DaemonFCAmarok, Rhythmbox, and Banshee can all sync itJan 15 16:52
DaemonFCApple hasn't blocked it so far, why would they start?Jan 15 16:52
MinceRreally, they haven't?Jan 15 16:53
DaemonFCZune just plain DOES NOT WORKJan 15 16:53
AdusIs Amarok for Windows stable these days?Jan 15 16:53
DaemonFCAdus: Nothing in the KDE For Windows group is all that reliableJan 15 16:53
MinceR 15 16:53
phIRCe-localTitle: Apple Confuses Speech with a DMCA Violation | Electronic Frontier Foundation .::. Size~: 23.34 KBJan 15 16:53
MinceRwhat's this then?Jan 15 16:53
DaemonFCplus it can't play AAC or MP3Jan 15 16:53
DaemonFCMinceR: I'm telling you, it worksJan 15 16:54
AdusI use Foobar, really like it.Jan 15 16:54
DaemonFCit works better on Linux than on WindowsJan 15 16:54
MinceRDaemonFC: i'm telling you, the developers received DMCA c&d ordersJan 15 16:54
MinceRand legal threatsJan 15 16:54
DaemonFCon Windows you have to haul in iTunes which WILL fuck with all your shitJan 15 16:54
MinceRand crApple, m$ and pals are buying ever more fascist laws in the USAJan 15 16:54
MinceRand worldwideJan 15 16:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] RT: @digiplace: RT @webupd8: Canonical To Bring Closed Source Apps Like iTunes And Photoshop To Ubuntu?!?! ~ Web Upd8 15 16:55
DaemonFCMinceR: I said it works, not that I'd recommend buying oneJan 15 16:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Canonical To Bring Closed Source Apps Like iTunes And Photoshop To Ubuntu?!?! ~ Web Upd8 .::. Size~: 133.83 KBJan 15 16:55
DaemonFCbut given the Zune and iPod, I'd get the iPodJan 15 16:55
MinceRso if i were you, i wouldn't trust being able to use that paperweight with gnu/linux.Jan 15 16:55
DaemonFCif those were the only choicesJan 15 16:55
MinceRand especially not its future versions.Jan 15 16:55
DaemonFCiPod can also be flashed over and have Rockbox installed on themJan 15 16:55
MinceRsure, and then you lose your warrantyJan 15 16:56
MinceRthough it might not be worth much to begin with, considering crApple's customer service.Jan 15 16:56
AdusDaemonFC: Not all of them.Jan 15 16:56
AdusThe nano 2nd and 3rd gens still haven't been cracked afaik.Jan 15 16:56
DaemonFCwell, yeah, the battery is built in and Apple probably will refuse to change the battery if you have Rockbox on itJan 15 16:56
DaemonFCAdus: I've used RockBox on a 5th genJan 15 16:57
AdusiPod 1g through 5.5g, iPod Mini and iPod Nano 1g Jan 15 16:57
DaemonFCI'd flash over it with the official firmware before sending it inJan 15 16:57
AdusNo Nano 2g or 3gJan 15 16:57
Adus:(Jan 15 16:57
MinceRand hope they don't have any means to detect itJan 15 16:57
AdusI know the linux for iPod folks were working on cracking the nano 2nd and 3rd gen years ago, but presumably they enver succeededJan 15 16:58
Aduswhich is a shame.Jan 15 16:58
MinceRremember, this is the company that was planning to put water detectors into their products so they can claim that water damage killed their shoddy hardware, and it's the customer's faultJan 15 16:58
MinceRi don't know why people even buy hypePods, noname chinese music players are better.Jan 15 16:58
DaemonFCAdus: The Sansa Fuze is my favorite player so farJan 15 16:58
DaemonFCFLAC and Vorbis in the official firmwareJan 15 16:58
MinceRand those support more formats and properly support the USB Mass Storage Class.Jan 15 16:58
DaemonFCno reason to flash over itJan 15 16:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] It's only a survey. Nothing official ;-)Jan 15 16:59
AdusI got an iPod Nano as a leaving present from Eidos, I still use itJan 15 16:59
MinceRlol eidosJan 15 16:59
Adusit's alright, works fine with SharePod, so I don't need itunesJan 15 16:59
DaemonFCeidos.....Jan 15 16:59
MinceRanother company that's well known for putting out crapJan 15 16:59
DaemonFCTomb Raider, Tomb Raider, and Tomb RaiderJan 15 16:59
AdusMicrosoft Research -> Eidos -> Codemasters -> Microsoft Game StudiosJan 15 16:59
DaemonFCLara Croft's tits get bigger every gameJan 15 16:59
Adusis my career so far :pJan 15 16:59
DaemonFCAdus: So why not try to get on at Red Hat or somethingJan 15 17:00
MinceRit's against his religionJan 15 17:00
AdusDoing what?Jan 15 17:00
DaemonFCa company that's not trying to fuck over everyoneJan 15 17:00
MinceRAdus: developing software?Jan 15 17:00
AdusMinceR: I doubt redhat have much need of my expertise.Jan 15 17:00
MinceRthere's a pointJan 15 17:01
DaemonFCAdus: Sending your resume in wouldn't hurt anythingJan 15 17:01
AdusI specialise in largely distributed server environments. XBL, MMOs and that sort of thingJan 15 17:01
Aduslarge-scale deployed apps Jan 15 17:01
AdusI'm a Network ProgrammerJan 15 17:01
Adus:pJan 15 17:01
AdusAs I said earlier, I very nearly went to google.Jan 15 17:02
DaemonFCIon Storm might be hiring?Jan 15 17:02
DaemonFC;)Jan 15 17:02
AdusBut I quite liek Games, and MS were offering more money :pJan 15 17:02
MinceRisn't ion storm a part of eidos?Jan 15 17:02
DaemonFCMinceR: WasJan 15 17:02
AdusIon are defunct :pJan 15 17:02
Diablo-D3 15 17:02
Diablo-D3ohhaiJan 15 17:02
phIRCe-localTitle: Byte Nibble: Joe's Random Musings .::. Size~: 112.38 KBJan 15 17:02
Adus:)Jan 15 17:02
DaemonFCJohn Romero blew threw all of eidos's moneyJan 15 17:03
DaemonFCgave them one game, that floppedJan 15 17:03
DaemonFCand then the Dallas office was closedJan 15 17:03
MinceRstill, it was probably the best use of their money they ever hadJan 15 17:03
DaemonFC*throughJan 15 17:03
AdusDiablo-D3: Really not that interesting, heheJan 15 17:03
DaemonFCI actually feel sorry for them when I see what he spent it onJan 15 17:03
AdusEidos were bought out by Square were they not?Jan 15 17:03
Adusand Midway by Warner?Jan 15 17:04
AdusI know Warner were also looking at buying Codemasters, not heard anything more about that.Jan 15 17:04
Diablo-D3I find it hilarious .net took so long to get parallel programming constructsJan 15 17:05
Diablo-D3and mono still doesnt have them, so its totally uselessJan 15 17:05
Diablo-D3java wins again <3Jan 15 17:05
DaemonFCMoonlight usually crashes FirefoxJan 15 17:06
DaemonFCstill doesn't load most Silverlight pagesJan 15 17:06
AdusDiablo-D3: Well, the reason it took .NET so long is because it's built on all the parelell stuff for C++Jan 15 17:10
Adusand PPL is still very newJan 15 17:10
*desu_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 15 17:10
AdusThough software somewhat standard at least. Microsoft PPL and Intel TBB are compatible.Jan 15 17:11
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AdusThen TPL for .NET is just a wrapper on PPL really.Jan 15 17:11
AdusAnyway, time for the pub. Have a good evening folksJan 15 17:25
*Adus doffs hatJan 15 17:25
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Omar87So Hicham no longer comes here?Jan 15 17:46
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schestowitzOmar87: no..Jan 15 18:21
schestowitzHe was here a while ago, briedlyJan 15 18:21
schestowitz*brieflyJan 15 18:22
Diablo-D3hicham probably got fed up with the bullshitJan 15 18:22
Omar87Diablo-D3: maybeJan 15 18:34
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Multipath game trailer via #Youtube awesomery 15 18:36
phIRCe-localTitle: YouTube- Just Cause 2 Multi-path Trailer .::. Size~: 120 KBJan 15 18:36
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zoobab_jJan 15 18:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] #Backtrack-4 [codename: Pwnsauce] Installing now! xDJan 15 19:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents Roundup: #Commission Sells Out to Microsoft; #Apple and RIM Sued by #Kodak 15 19:14
phIRCe-localTitle: Patents Roundup: Commission Sells Out to Microsoft; Apple and RIM Sued by Gates-backed Kodak | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.43 KBJan 15 19:14
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MurlocHello PeopleJan 15 19:35
MurlocHey RoyJan 15 19:35
*Chips_B_Malroy (i=4731c09d@gateway/web/freenode/x-zusrbxushqhnaabp) has joined #boycottnovellJan 15 19:55
Chips_B_MalroyHello everyoneJan 15 19:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell is Rapidly Losing #GroupWise Business 15 19:56
phIRCe-localTitle: Novell is Rapidly Losing GroupWise Business | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 99.67 KBJan 15 19:56
Chips_B_MalroyUS retail sales see surprise fall 15 19:56
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 75.23 KBJan 15 19:56
Chips_B_Malroya bad Xmas season for retailers hereJan 15 19:57
Chips_B_Malroy"Sales of electrical goods and cars saw some of the biggest falls"Jan 15 19:57
Chips_B_MalroyThe could spell bad news for MS as well, and be a signal for more layoffs to comeJan 15 19:58
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amd-linux,,5132998,00.htmlJan 15 20:04
phIRCe-localTitle: German web security office warns of "critical" flaws in Internet Explorer | Science & Technology | Deutsche Welle | 15.01.2010 .::. Size~: 30.69 KBJan 15 20:04
amd-linuxthis was just on both main German public TV channels in the main newsJan 15 20:04
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Chips_B_Malroyand yet there's Intel 15 20:10
phIRCe-localTitle: Tech Boom: Intel's Earnings Up an Astounding 875% .::. Size~: 77.23 KBJan 15 20:10
MurlocI've released new version of ZeuAPP recently. The project made to get open source at desktop with 1 click.Jan 15 20:15
MurlocIm also looking to go with python with Linux version.Jan 15 20:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] N-Dubz star Dappy 'sorry' over text message threats - What kinda plonker calls himself Dappy? ROFL 15 20:29
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC News - N-Dubz star Dappy 'sorry' over text message threats .::. Size~: 47 KBJan 15 20:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Microsoft admits Explorer used in Google China hack - Solution? "Buy Windows 7, it's secure, honest" lol 15 20:32
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC News - Microsoft admits Explorer used in Google China hack .::. Size~: 48.85 KBJan 15 20:32
trmanco 15 20:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Flaws — Not #Adobe Flaws — Responsible for #China ’s Attack on #Google 15 20:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft Flaws  Not Adobe Flaws  Responsible for Chinas Attack on Google; Microsoft Takes Chinas Side, as Usual | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.29 KBJan 15 20:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Bill Gates thought to be a famous thief, so they do recognise him then, despite the PR. LMAO 15 20:39
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC News - Steve Jobs and Sir Tim Berners-Lee baffle the Brits .::. Size~: 43.99 KBJan 15 20:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Peter Robinson talks of pain caused by wife's affair | The coordinated PR sympathy campaign begins 15 20:44
phIRCe-localTitle: Peter Robinson talks of pain caused by wife's affair |Politics | .::. Size~: 77.45 KBJan 15 20:44
schestowitzJan 15 20:46
schestowitz[18:22] <Diablo-D3> hicham probably got fed up with the bullshitJan 15 20:46
schestowitzNo, he made an unacceptable remark about Novell's de Icaza and got told off for itJan 15 20:46
schestowitzHey, MurlocJan 15 20:46
schestowitz[19:58] <Chips_B_Malroy> The could spell bad news for MS as well, and be a signal for more layoffs to comeJan 15 20:47
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: maybeJan 15 20:47
schestowitzNo clues yetJan 15 20:47
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: why link to BS stories about IntelJan 15 20:48
schestowitzTheir profit fell 90%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Jan 15 20:48
schestowitzThen, the following year they could resort it to old level and claim, "WOW!!!!!!!1 Up 900%!!!"Jan 15 20:48
schestowitz /resort/restore/Jan 15 20:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb some thought correctly. He *is* a thiefJan 15 20:51
trmancoMicrosoft and it's monkeys are very competent -> 15 20:52
phIRCe-localTitle: CPAN Testers at MSNBOT must die! .::. Size~: 17.81 KBJan 15 20:52
schestowitztrmanco: shouldn't they rename itJan 15 20:54
schestowitzBingot?Jan 15 20:54
trmancoBingbutt?Jan 15 20:54
schestowitzLivebot?Jan 15 20:54
schestowitzThey don't keep up with the changing brandsJan 15 20:54
schestowitzKumo..Jan 15 20:54
trmancoKumB0tJan 15 20:54
MinceRcumbot?Jan 15 20:55
trmanconoJan 15 20:55
trmancokumbotJan 15 20:55
trmancofrom kumoJan 15 20:55
trmanco:>Jan 15 20:55
schestowitzMinceR: sounds like something from a sex shopJan 15 20:58
schestowitzMicrosoft DilloJan 15 20:58
schestowitz 15 20:59
phIRCe-localTitle: Windows and Office veteran ejects from Microsoft • The Register .::. Size~: 28.57 KBJan 15 20:59
schestowitz 15 20:59
phIRCe-localTitle: bizpunk: EA's Miss .::. Size~: 119.37 KBJan 15 20:59
schestowitzA-DOS tells us that the gaming industry is flourishingJan 15 20:59
schestowitzAccording to "studies" he can't nameJan 15 20:59
schestowitzBut it's all downJan 15 20:59
schestowitz 15 21:00
phIRCe-localTitle: MPs slam IBM pension moves • The Register .::. Size~: 27.64 KBJan 15 21:00
MurlocStill im thinking what to use for Linux transition.Jan 15 21:01
MurlocPython seems like a good option.Jan 15 21:01
schestowitzNokia still clings on to the Klingon, Symbian 15 21:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Nokia posts proposal for next year's smartphone UI • Register Hardware .::. Size~: 23.4 KBJan 15 21:03
MinceRDillo is non-m$ :>Jan 15 21:04
MurlocAnyway Microsoft has strong loby in schoolsJan 15 21:04
Murloclobby*Jan 15 21:04
MurlocThey started making desperate moves, so that school would stay their clients. OpenOffice is far better alternative to be used in school as learning tool.Jan 15 21:05
Chips_B_Malroythe reason for the Intel link was to see if it had in fact to it, and as you stated, it was BS.  it was more of a question than anything elseJan 15 21:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Booze fail. 15 21:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 15 21:06
schestowitz 15 21:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux Foundation: Linux job market has grown 80 percent .::. Size~: 33.8 KBJan 15 21:06
schestowitzMurloc: Gates tooJan 15 21:06
schestowitzMicrosoft has NGOs acting as satellitesJan 15 21:06
schestowitzI showed these in BN, using dozens of news articles (External links)Jan 15 21:07
schestowitzThey have former Softies creating foundations and NGOsJan 15 21:07
trmancoMurloc: that is what happens hereJan 15 21:07
schestowitzMinceR: Microsoft could buy a DilloJan 15 21:07
schestowitzLike it bought 'IE'Jan 15 21:07
schestowitzBastardised the originsJan 15 21:07
schestowitzI couldn't copy Netscape 'from scratch;'Jan 15 21:07
schestowitztrmanco: no kickbacks, no OpenOffice :-)Jan 15 21:08
schestowitzSocrates likes $$Jan 15 21:08
schestowitz 15 21:08
phIRCe-localTitle: The future is wide open - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 73.08 KBJan 15 21:08
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schestowitzTell Portugal to prepare students for Facebook, Google, etc.Jan 15 21:09
schestowitzThese companies don't give a blip if you can open a new Word document and manoeuvre your way very quickly through Mister ClippyJan 15 21:10
schestowitztrmanco: you can make a real difference by working with ANSOL et alJan 15 21:10
trmancowindows junk licenses usually costs 1€ per computer (not counting office suite)... but it's still a waste of money, specially in poor schools... and they even put restrictions on computers as if they own them :/Jan 15 21:10
MurlocClippy-the most annoying thing ever made.Jan 15 21:11
schestowitzThe tide is changing and change seems inevitable. See what Omar87 and JUST do in JordanJan 15 21:12
schestowitzI doubt the Mafioso will be given a talk in Hungary any time soon after getting eggs tossed at himJan 15 21:12
ThistleWebI was gonna say that I wonder why the porn industry hasn't got it's play on it with Miss Clitty, but then "micro" and "soft" are only "before" marketing words lolJan 15 21:13
schestowitztrmanco: but it's good for taxpayers... :-) Microsoft Portugal is a Portuguese companyJan 15 21:13
schestowitzAll those multinationals have their alter egosJan 15 21:13
schestowitzPretending they are localsJan 15 21:13
schestowitzAnd it it's in Poland, they blow off black facesJan 15 21:13
schestowitztrmanco: wow.  1€? For the "free sample" drug dealer that's quite expensiveJan 15 21:14
schestowitzThe "Samples" are classically gratisJan 15 21:14
schestowitzMiss Clitty is just a micro- and soft man genitaliaJan 15 21:15
trmancomicrosoft a portuguese company... yeahJan 15 21:15
schestowitzThistleWeb: it says a lot about Microsoft and ClippyJan 15 21:16
schestowitztrmanco: Microsoft(C) Portugal(C)Jan 15 21:16
schestowitzMicrosoft Deutschland...Jan 15 21:16
trmancolike as if giving away our money to them is going to put this country out of the global crisis... riight...Jan 15 21:16
schestowitzMicrosoft UK...Jan 15 21:16
schestowitzIt's 'YOUR' companyJan 15 21:16
schestowitzYou need to love itJan 15 21:16
trmancothey even put a hot chick as the general manager or something here in portugalJan 15 21:16
schestowitzIt gives you jobs and makes pretty adverts for youJan 15 21:16
ThistleWebI thought that ages ago, a company that's all about macho image using 2 words meaning "tiny" and "flacid" ain't exactly loud and proud male attributesJan 15 21:17
trmancothey haven't gave me anythingJan 15 21:17
schestowitzIt's interested in helping you, trmancoJan 15 21:17
schestowitz 15 21:17
phIRCe-localTitle: "Only the Super-Rich Can Save Us!" (9781583229033): Ralph Nader: Books .::. Size~: 391.41 KBJan 15 21:17
trmancobut bad codding apps and practices, like visual basic and there mfc half real standard c++ languageJan 15 21:17
schestowitzThistleWeb: they get softerJan 15 21:18
schestowitzIt was never about microchipsJan 15 21:18
schestowitzThey move from software to patents nowJan 15 21:18
schestowitzThey started with licensing but now they found patenting profitable tooJan 15 21:18
schestowitzIt's like Monsanto moving from chemical to biological -experiments on humans- modificationsJan 15 21:19
ThistleWebschestowitz: did you see the channel 4 Netal post today?Jan 15 21:19
schestowitzOr Haliburton entering the business of war, food, weapon, murder...Jan 15 21:19
schestowitzThistleWeb: noJan 15 21:19
schestowitz 15 21:20
phIRCe-localTitle: Canonical, IBM: Ubuntu Counters Windows 7 At Lotusphere | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 56.8 KBJan 15 21:20
ThistleWeb"hitting stores by Christmas"....which was either written a few months ago and missed, and posted late, or is 12 months awayJan 15 21:20
ThistleWebaim - hang on to your 360, the future is coming in 12 monthsJan 15 21:20
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phIRCe-localTitle: Azerblog: Watching TV and Linux .::. Size~: 85.8 KBJan 15 21:20
ThistleWeb 15 21:21
phIRCe-localTitle: X-Box moves towards 'action computing' - Channel 4 News .::. Size~: 29.86 KBJan 15 21:21
ThistleWeb^^ that storyJan 15 21:21
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ThistleWebwhen I read the "hitting stores for Christmas" I checked the date on the article to see if it was an old one, but it's notJan 15 21:21
trmanco 15 21:21
schestowitz 15 21:21
phIRCe-localTitle:   Avatar Movie Made Possible With Linux  -        .::. Size~: 12.33 KBJan 15 21:21
schestowitz"Just put your work in your plain text comment here. There are around 3,000 documents, and we're more than half done, so if you want to share in the project, it's now or never. And with that, I'm back to work."Jan 15 21:21
phIRCe-localTitle: Groklaw - The Microsoft-Linux Story As Told in the Comes Exhibits .::. Size~: 83.38 KBJan 15 21:21
schestowitzOh waitJan 15 21:21
schestowitzI thought we had about 9000Jan 15 21:22
schestowitzThistleWeb: it's an advertJan 15 21:22
schestowitzThistleWeb: yes, I know... it's a year awayJan 15 21:22
schestowitzThey said in CESJan 15 21:22
schestowitzNintendo has had that for agesJan 15 21:22
ThistleWebI did like the survey that 5% of people thought Bill Gates was a famous theif, or a comedianJan 15 21:23
ThistleWebthat made me literally LOLJan 15 21:24
MinceRonly 5% got it right? :>Jan 15 21:24
ThistleWebthat's what I thought, despite all the efforts to paint him as a saint, 5% still got him rightJan 15 21:24
ThistleWebI think that was a "regular Joe" survey, not a techy peeps survey, otherwise they'd know him and JobsJan 15 21:25
schestowitzGroklaw is saving us lots of work now with more volunteers that extract the textsJan 15 21:26
schestowitzBut Groklaw is repeating stuff that was in BN ages agoJan 15 21:26
schestowitzBringing it to wider audiencesJan 15 21:26
schestowitz:-)Jan 15 21:26
schestowitzThistleWeb: so he doesn't spend enough money yet on PRJan 15 21:27
schestowitzMaybe he should hire assassin to eliminate those who call him "thief"Jan 15 21:27
schestowitzOr..Jan 15 21:27
schestowitzMaybe he should give them Monsanto seeds... cancer will take care of the rest :-)Jan 15 21:27
MinceRlolJan 15 21:28
schestowitzThat lady we showed sued Monsanto in IndiaJan 15 21:28
schestowitzShe should also sue criminals who back them financiallyJan 15 21:28
ThistleWebon one hand I like when MS have to buy more and more PR, or give away stuff they'd prefer to charge for as it saps their money quicker....on the other hand it creates more addicts and makes it an easier sell to govts as "too big to fail" when appealing for tax payers bailoutJan 15 21:28
schestowitz 15 21:29
phIRCe-localTitle: L.A. Law Firm Reports Cyber Attack From China - Los Angeles News - LA Daily .::. Size~: 46.26 KBJan 15 21:29
schestowitzIE>..Jan 15 21:29
ThistleWebideally, they'd be forced to be honest with customers, since they have no intention of doing that on their own volitionJan 15 21:29
schestowitzThistleWeb: they also use PR for bailouts\Jan 15 21:29
schestowitzBuying the hearts of politicians and sheepleJan 15 21:29
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phIRCe-localTitle: IETF Completes Fix for SSL Security Vulnerability - Security from eWeek .::. Size~: 111.82 KBJan 15 21:34
schestowitzI hop Groklaw manages to find somehting we haven't found in ComesJan 15 21:35
schestowitzI care a lot less about GO and other proprietary s/w companiesJan 15 21:35
schestowitzI think we have already extracted all the "Linux" stuff with the help of 10 eyeballs (at least)Jan 15 21:35
schestowitzIt's a shame that this stuff is not in the 'mainstream' press like NYTJan 15 21:35
schestowitzMinceR will love this: 15 21:38
phIRCe-localTitle:             Apple cracks down on valleywag  - The Inquirer          .::. Size~: 64.14 KBJan 15 21:38
MinceRthe hype machine is at full powerJan 15 21:43
schestowitztessier__: is it possible to make varnish treat pages with hashes (like "#comment-78212") be treated as separate unique pages that get cached separately or not get cached?Jan 15 21:48
schestowitzMinceR: that like saying Apple is at full powerJan 15 21:49
MinceRpart of the hype machine is outside crAppleJan 15 21:50
schestowitzEdelman?Jan 15 21:52
schestowitzHere's a taskJan 15 21:52
MinceRthe fanboy armyJan 15 21:52
schestowitzFind out who Apple contracts for PRJan 15 21:52
schestowitzI don't know companies/namesJan 15 21:52
schestowitzThe "army" is led by "Evangelists" like KawasakiJan 15 21:52
MinceRthey probably have multiple PR contactsJan 15 21:52
MinceRand every time they choose 1Jan 15 21:52
schestowitz!google guy kawasaki shillJan 15 21:52
phIRCe-local[1] - Traffick: The Business of Search: Is Guy Kawasaki Singlehandedly ... | 15 21:52
phIRCe-local[2] - So, who should fill Schmidt's shoes on the Apple board - MAC.BLORGE | 15 21:52
phIRCe-local[3] - Ishmael's Corner » Oprah: Heartfelt Storyteller or Paid Shill? | 15 21:52
phIRCe-local[4] - Steve Ballmer: MIX08 Conversation with Guy Kawasaki | 15 21:52
schestowitz 15 21:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Move Your Money   » Find A Bank Or Credit Union .::. Size~: 10.28 KBJan 15 21:55
schestowitz 15 21:57
schestowitz"African workers in mafia-controlled Italian farms rioted against the local mafia, after some of them were shot for no specific reason. The police arrested all the immigrants, but not all of the mafia. "Jan 15 21:57
rnb_rms++Jan 15 21:58
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phIRCe-localTitle: Allegations fly over Iranian scientist's assassination |World news |The Guardian .::. Size~: 77.59 KBJan 15 22:07
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phIRCe-localTitle:   Ubuntu Chicago Files Chapter 13  ::  Richard A. Johnson .::. Size~: 27.46 KBJan 15 22:23
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rnbhola todosJan 15 22:53
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phIRCe-localTitle: Wii sales soar in December; PS3 edges out Xbox 360 for month .::. Size~: 44.31 KBJan 15 23:04
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schestowitzOkular made Reader redundant. I don't use itJan 15 23:13
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MinceROkular got sluggish so i switched to EvinceJan 15 23:20
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schestowitztest freenodeJan 15 23:31
MinceRsince it isn't foldable, its flexibility is only a drawbackJan 15 23:32
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phIRCe-localTitle: Google Ditches Local Listings for SEOs and Designers | WebProNews .::. Size~: 36.73 KBJan 15 23:52
schestowitz 15 23:52
schestowitzfreenode is messyJan 15 23:52
phIRCe-localTitle: US Global Hawks capture Haiti destruction • The Register .::. Size~: 26.22 KBJan 15 23:55
_goblingood evening allJan 15 23:55

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