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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] black people awkwardly photoshopped in/out: http://is.gd/1u2Xm | Jul 11 00:07 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] The National Portrait Gallery sends legal threat to Wikipedia editor after WMF told NPG to go away: http://is.gd/1u3hs | Jul 11 00:13 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] (This will not end well. For the NPG.) | Jul 11 00:13 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] (The editor the NPG sent the threat to is American. Bridgeman v. Corel applies.) | Jul 11 00:19 | |
| cj | schestowitz: hey, did you see? It seems that the last few posts are dedicated to you: http://planet.gnome.org/ | Jul 11 00:33 |
|---|---|---|
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Wikimedia blog: Sue and be damned. http://bit.ly/g0kh2 | Jul 11 00:35 | |
| oiaohm | cj exactly what articales there. | Jul 11 00:39 |
| blankthemuffin | lol wow cj | Jul 11 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Roy is not affraid of people writing code. | Jul 11 00:57 |
| oiaohm | http://live.gnome.org/Vala Exists due to techincal issues with mono. | Jul 11 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Issue is not for the people writing the code. its with people running businesses and distributing and using the code when it comes to patents. | Jul 11 01:00 |
| blankthemuffin | Vala isn't anything like mono. | Jul 11 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Vala has intergration. | Jul 11 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Mono does not. | Jul 11 01:01 |
| oiaohm | So of course its nothing like mono. It can be used to expand the gnome frameworks. | Jul 11 01:02 |
| blankthemuffin | You can't extend the gnome libraries with python, does that make it bad? | Jul 11 01:02 |
| oiaohm | Combind in the tech google is developing to use x86 as a cross platform byte code. | Jul 11 01:02 |
| oiaohm | python is pushed as a scripting language. it is possiable to put a gobject wrapper around a python script. | Jul 11 01:03 |
| oiaohm | But due to speed it has not made it into the framework. | Jul 11 01:04 |
| oiaohm | Ie its not that it cannot be used that way. | Jul 11 01:04 |
| blankthemuffin | how would you do that? | Jul 11 01:04 |
| oiaohm | Same way you embed python in everything else. | Jul 11 01:05 |
| blankthemuffin | Well if we're talking about embedding, mono can be embeded as well you know. | Jul 11 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Mono uses PE files. | Jul 11 01:05 |
| oiaohm | That are designed to allow direct intergration with windows. | Jul 11 01:05 |
| blankthemuffin | So what? That's got nothing to do with it. | Jul 11 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Mono has not provided equal for Linux. | Jul 11 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Or other platforms. | Jul 11 01:06 |
| blankthemuffin | I find it pretty equal. | Jul 11 01:06 |
| oiaohm | ELF | Jul 11 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Do they have ELF wrappers? | Jul 11 01:06 |
| blankthemuffin | Why would you want that | Jul 11 01:06 |
| blankthemuffin | It can't be executed on its own anyway. It's just a container. | Jul 11 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Linux executables are ELF. | Jul 11 01:07 |
| blankthemuffin | <blankthemuffin> It can't be executed on its own anyway. It's just a container. | Jul 11 01:07 |
| oiaohm | PE containes a run stub and can contain explorted calls for native programs to interface with. | Jul 11 01:08 |
| blankthemuffin | That'd be like getting angry because java doesn't use ELF files for its .class format. | Jul 11 01:08 |
| oiaohm | So allowing intergration on windows in way. | Jul 11 01:08 |
| oiaohm | Java using gcj can be built to natives so allowing intergation. | Jul 11 01:08 |
| blankthemuffin | Mono using --full-aot can build to native executables, so allowing integration. | Jul 11 01:09 |
| oiaohm | Nop | Jul 11 01:09 |
| blankthemuffin | Yep | Jul 11 01:09 |
| blankthemuffin | .NET on windows using ngen can compile to native executables. Same as Mono can for linux. | Jul 11 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Windows .Net can be com objects. gobjects are gnome equal. | Jul 11 01:11 |
| oiaohm | There are ways to bind java using gcj back to that. | Jul 11 01:11 |
| oiaohm | Mono simply lacks the means to do particular things. | Jul 11 01:11 |
| blankthemuffin | You simply don't understand how to do particular things and assume they don't exist. | Jul 11 01:12 |
| oiaohm | Wrong blankthemuffin | Jul 11 01:12 |
| oiaohm | The problem is mono runtime feature was is just duplication of the gnome runtime. | Jul 11 01:13 |
| oiaohm | Done different ways. | Jul 11 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Java guys at least had the balls to try building there own desktop envorments. | Jul 11 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Due to there known levels of incompadibles. | Jul 11 01:14 |
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| oiaohm | Like with GTK# all the gobject have wrappers to .net classes. So its translation backwards and forwards all the time. Basically .net was not designed for gnome. | Jul 11 01:17 |
| oiaohm | .Net also intergrates poorly into QT. | Jul 11 01:18 |
| oiaohm | These poor intergrations are why Java over time dropped in populatirty. | Jul 11 01:18 |
| oiaohm | Instead ended up either with pure Java system or native code systems. | Jul 11 01:19 |
| oiaohm | History is repeating blankthemuffin. | Jul 11 01:19 |
| blankthemuffin | Not really, integration with native binaries is so much easier with .NET's P/Invoke than Java's system. This is one of the main reasons .NET was invented. | Jul 11 01:21 |
| blankthemuffin | If I wanted I could embed mono in Gtk and you could do anything with it. | Jul 11 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Integration needs both directions. | Jul 11 01:22 |
| oiaohm | So avoid the gobject struct blankthemuffin. | Jul 11 01:23 |
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| oiaohm | That is a mistake. | Jul 11 01:23 |
| oiaohm | gobject support is the key thing that has allows the gnome applications to share parts. | Jul 11 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Its called not duplicating effort blankthemuffin. What mono on gnome effectively is causing native programs like rythombox not sharing code sections with like Banshee | Jul 11 01:29 |
| oiaohm | So its effectively spliting gnome in half. | Jul 11 01:29 |
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| oiaohm | KDE developers are working flat stack to allow better intergration between projects. Anything that don't intergrate well like mono gets pushed to the edge of kde world because it can under mine development speed. | Jul 11 01:37 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi oiaohm | Jul 11 01:40 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, well it might not matter soon if kde becomes the one used by most foss users instead of gnome so it might seem mono had dire consequences for gnome acceptance, not what migule had in mind ?...maybe linus was right afterall who knows we'll see :) | Jul 11 01:40 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, honestly I'd not been all that hip on gnome lately anyway..I like how kde organizes things..and in part the same reason linus had for moving I do as well | Jul 11 01:41 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : there is kde bindings for mono | Jul 11 01:42 |
| neighborlee | yup I know all about that ;) | Jul 11 01:42 |
| _Hicham_ | so kde is not spared | Jul 11 01:42 |
| neighborlee | but no intrusion | Jul 11 01:42 |
| neighborlee | yes it is | Jul 11 01:42 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Jul 11 01:42 |
| neighborlee | ive not seen any mono apps in kde have you | Jul 11 01:42 |
| _Hicham_ | you will soon | Jul 11 01:43 |
| neighborlee | url | Jul 11 01:43 |
| _Hicham_ | they just don't have kde devs | Jul 11 01:43 |
| _Hicham_ | all of mono devs are gnome devs | Jul 11 01:43 |
| neighborlee | heh imagine that | Jul 11 01:43 |
| _Hicham_ | once they recrute some kde devs, u will see mono penetrate kde | Jul 11 01:43 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm makes a perfect point though..one I dont think can be overcome | Jul 11 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | openSUSE is one of distros that are considered to ship a perfect KDE | Jul 11 01:44 |
| neighborlee | bad example | Jul 11 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | the top KDE distros are : openSUSE and Mandriva | Jul 11 01:44 |
| neighborlee | yup | Jul 11 01:44 |
| neighborlee | mandriva has no mono that I know of.. | Jul 11 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | it is known to all of the world | Jul 11 01:44 |
| neighborlee | it does in gnome | Jul 11 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | so once they put some kde mono apps in openSUSE, a lot of distros will follow | Jul 11 01:45 |
| neighborlee | but then enter fedora | Jul 11 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | Mandriva for example | Jul 11 01:45 |
| neighborlee | now the stakes are much higher for foss advocates | Jul 11 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | fedora might follow also, if the apps are proven to be of high quality | Jul 11 01:46 |
| neighborlee | well ;) | Jul 11 01:46 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell is a big company | Jul 11 01:46 |
| neighborlee | one could infer silverlight has some appeal,,it was used in some high profile cases..but you dont see them accepting moonlight | Jul 11 01:46 |
| _Hicham_ | they are having a lot of money from microsoft | Jul 11 01:46 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jul 11 01:46 |
| _Hicham_ | fedora didn't accept moonlight because it depends on non-free codecs | Jul 11 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | if somethings requires non free stuff, it is forbidden in fedora | Jul 11 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | so u might find it in rpmfusion | Jul 11 01:47 |
| neighborlee | sure yes | Jul 11 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | even rpmfusion have stricter rules than Debian/Ubuntu | Jul 11 01:48 |
| neighborlee | yeah well ive little respect for debian anymore | Jul 11 01:48 |
| _Hicham_ | the point is : there is no obvious legal concerns for mono right now | Jul 11 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | and the distros will package the latest mono | Jul 11 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | to stay competitive | Jul 11 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | they all want to attract windows devs | Jul 11 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | it is easy to see | Jul 11 01:50 |
| neighborlee | ive not seen any assurance that the latest community promise is anything but vapor | Jul 11 01:51 |
| neighborlee | we'll see | Jul 11 01:51 |
| _Hicham_ | the whole mono code is gpl'ed | Jul 11 01:52 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no obvious risk til the moment | Jul 11 01:52 |
| neighborlee | darn I wish some music sites had better album selection <flac as in> | Jul 11 01:52 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : there is a lot of ogg sites | Jul 11 01:52 |
| neighborlee | flac.sourceforge.net has some really nice urls for flac abled sites..but no albums I want that ive seen yet :( | Jul 11 01:53 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : are u on fedora now ? | Jul 11 01:53 |
| neighborlee | no | Jul 11 01:53 |
| _Hicham_ | Windows on the Library? | Jul 11 01:53 |
| neighborlee | I had to reinstall..and I lost fedora from windows install | Jul 11 01:54 |
| neighborlee | ey? | Jul 11 01:54 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : u lost the fedora partition or just grub ? | Jul 11 01:54 |
| neighborlee | all | Jul 11 01:54 |
| _Hicham_ | so u have to repartition the disk? | Jul 11 01:54 |
| neighborlee | no biggie I can reinstall quick enough..have been busy | Jul 11 01:55 |
| _Hicham_ | do u need windows that much ? | Jul 11 01:56 |
| neighborlee | most defiinitely I do | Jul 11 01:56 |
| neighborlee | I depend on access 97 atm for invoicing | Jul 11 01:57 |
| neighborlee | UNForunately ;) | Jul 11 01:57 |
| neighborlee | ive tried everything trust me | Jul 11 01:57 |
| neighborlee | I can open mdb in oo in windows only, but the data makes no sense...its only structured correctly inside access | Jul 11 01:58 |
| neighborlee | eventually I'll just manually convert over to like gnuash or something..just time consuming is all | Jul 11 01:58 |
| _Hicham_ | OOo can connect to mdb files | Jul 11 01:59 |
| neighborlee | thats what I mean | Jul 11 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | I ve tried it on several mdb files | Jul 11 01:59 |
| neighborlee | <neighborlee> I can open mdb in oo in windows only | Jul 11 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | the UNIX ODBC driver works great too | Jul 11 01:59 |
| neighborlee | but you cant organize the data | Jul 11 01:59 |
| fewa | http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1298529&cid=28654669 | Jul 11 02:00 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, if you know some magic im all ears | Jul 11 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : you can convert the database to another format | Jul 11 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | odb for example | Jul 11 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | or you have to deal exclusively with mdb ? | Jul 11 02:00 |
| neighborlee | ill do almost anything to get AWAY from mdb ;)) | Jul 11 02:01 |
| _Hicham_ | do u have to share ur databases as mdb ? | Jul 11 02:01 |
| neighborlee | no | Jul 11 02:01 |
| _Hicham_ | why did u choose mdb then ? | Jul 11 02:03 |
| neighborlee | it was AGES ago | Jul 11 02:05 |
| _Hicham_ | OOo DataBase is very similar to access | Jul 11 02:06 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jul 11 02:06 |
| neighborlee | so how is it converted | Jul 11 02:06 |
| _Hicham_ | u open the mdb database with OOo | Jul 11 02:08 |
| _Hicham_ | then u re save it in odb format | Jul 11 02:08 |
| _Hicham_ | neighborlee : http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=13458 | Jul 11 02:10 |
| neighborlee | ok ill try it later thx for info ;0 | Jul 11 02:13 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: been tried. | Jul 11 02:14 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm: what do u mean ? | Jul 11 02:15 |
| oiaohm | KDE developers have classed mono as nothing more than a fancy scripting language with major debuging problems. | Jul 11 02:15 |
| oiaohm | In there eyes python is more suitable. | Jul 11 02:15 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : KDE depends on openSUSE and Mandriva | Jul 11 02:15 |
| oiaohm | No | Jul 11 02:15 |
| _Hicham_ | they are the best KDE distros | Jul 11 02:15 |
| oiaohm | KDE is a independant foundation. | Jul 11 02:15 |
| _Hicham_ | i know | Jul 11 02:16 |
| _Hicham_ | I am talking from a practical point of view | Jul 11 02:16 |
| oiaohm | More money comes from IBM than Novell and Mandriva into the foundation. | Jul 11 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Money talks. | Jul 11 02:16 |
| _Hicham_ | I am not talking about money | Jul 11 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Developers also come from IBM and HP. | Jul 11 02:16 |
| _Hicham_ | I am talking about the distros that are known to ship the greatest KDE | Jul 11 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Novell and Mandriva have very little control over the path of KDE. | Jul 11 02:17 |
| oiaohm | They basically can only do window dressing. | Jul 11 02:17 |
| _Hicham_ | openSUSE is the first distro in KDE packaging | Jul 11 02:17 |
| _Hicham_ | followed by Mandriva | Jul 11 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Does not matter who packages first. | Jul 11 02:18 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not who packages first | Jul 11 02:18 |
| _Hicham_ | who delivers the best packaging | Jul 11 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Project leads of KDE are not controlled. | Jul 11 02:18 |
| _Hicham_ | these are facts | Jul 11 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Its very hard to embed something | Jul 11 02:18 |
| _Hicham_ | embed what? | Jul 11 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Without upstream support. | Jul 11 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Like mono. | Jul 11 02:19 |
| oiaohm | To embed something in the desktop. | Jul 11 02:19 |
| _Hicham_ | there is already kde bindings for mono | Jul 11 02:20 |
| oiaohm | Script bindings. | Jul 11 02:20 |
| oiaohm | Thoses don't access the full KDE API. | Jul 11 02:20 |
| _Hicham_ | how do u know ? | Jul 11 02:21 |
| oiaohm | I was in the debate over what mono will be classed as. | Jul 11 02:22 |
| oiaohm | It has the same classification as python. | Jul 11 02:22 |
| oiaohm | So mono can only access as much of the KDE API as python can. | Jul 11 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Lot of mono developers were really unhappy with that classification. | Jul 11 02:24 |
| oiaohm | It also means mono applications cannot ship as part of the main desktop. | Jul 11 02:24 |
| oiaohm | Since anything classed script is a addon. | Jul 11 02:24 |
| _Hicham_ | they don't have to do well with kde team | Jul 11 02:25 |
| _Hicham_ | they have their own kde devs | Jul 11 02:25 |
| _Hicham_ | and push it through openSUSE | Jul 11 02:25 |
| oiaohm | Effect nothing. | Jul 11 02:25 |
| oiaohm | Since mono is not part of the main desktop other distributions have no particular reason to pick it up | Jul 11 02:26 |
| oiaohm | So in KDE world mono programs would have to be impressive. | Jul 11 02:26 |
| oiaohm | To cause mono to spreed. | Jul 11 02:27 |
| blankthemuffin | That's the only reason Mono is distributed at all. | Jul 11 02:28 |
| oiaohm | Problem lot of the kde world applications are better than the mono ones. | Jul 11 02:28 |
| _Hicham_ | but they are not well marketed | Jul 11 02:29 |
| oiaohm | No its the old gnome vs kde war. | Jul 11 02:29 |
| oiaohm | Gnome users cannot bring themselves to use anything KDE. | Jul 11 02:29 |
| oiaohm | So use mono instead. | Jul 11 02:30 |
| blankthemuffin | lol | Jul 11 02:30 |
| blankthemuffin | Not quite, I used to use amarok, and it is more powerful than banshee. But the latest version has a terrible UI. | Jul 11 02:31 |
| _Hicham_ | mono is growing rapidly | Jul 11 02:31 |
| _Hicham_ | it is in heavy development | Jul 11 02:31 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, openSUSE is a great distro | Jul 11 02:32 |
| _Hicham_ | openSUSE still has its weight in Linux ecosystem | Jul 11 02:32 |
| oiaohm | amarok is not the only kde media player. | Jul 11 02:32 |
| _Hicham_ | banshee is not only gnome media player | Jul 11 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | there is exaile | Jul 11 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | amarok | Jul 11 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | rhythmbox | Jul 11 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | songbird | Jul 11 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm media player | Jul 11 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | and so on | Jul 11 02:33 |
| blankthemuffin | Amarok was the best media player. 1.4 was great, apart from its perks. | Jul 11 02:34 |
| oiaohm | amarok has always been one of these things either people like its interface or they hate it. | Jul 11 02:34 |
| blankthemuffin | I hated its interface, it was annoying in 1.4, it's unusable in 2. It was still great though. | Jul 11 02:35 |
| oiaohm | Out of KDE media players the most common one I use is Juk. | Jul 11 02:36 |
| oiaohm | Light weight and all I need to do is play music. | Jul 11 02:36 |
| *amarsh04 still uses xmms 1.2 | Jul 11 02:36 | |
| blankthemuffin | Hopefully the banshee devs get gap-less playback in soon. That'd be nice. | Jul 11 02:37 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm not sure gnome peeps refuse to use kde apps and vice versa, in my GTK environment I prefer all GTK apps if possible because QT look like a drag queen at a beauty contest. The theme dont change etc | Jul 11 02:37 |
| ThistleWeb | the mono apps like banshee at least fit with the GTK theme so they look native | Jul 11 02:37 |
| blankthemuffin | well they do use gtk. | Jul 11 02:37 |
| oiaohm | KDE users have no trouble with GTK applications. | Jul 11 02:37 |
| blankthemuffin | so it's hard for them not to. :P | Jul 11 02:38 |
| ThistleWeb | chances are you're running dependencies like either mono or some kde libs so there's no real difference in speed etc | Jul 11 02:38 |
| ThistleWeb | so it comes down to whether you want apps to blend in or stand out | Jul 11 02:38 |
| oiaohm | We have gtk-qt engine that makes GTK applications theme into KDE. | Jul 11 02:38 |
| oiaohm | Even replacing the default file dialogs with KDE ones. | Jul 11 02:38 |
| ThistleWeb | there needs to be more work on that, the other way round too | Jul 11 02:39 |
| oiaohm | When it comes to intergration kde is ahead. | Jul 11 02:39 |
| blankthemuffin | oiaohm, like I said, I've got no real problems with KDE, apart from my opinion that it looks like ass. I used to use a few kde apps, but I don't really feel the need to. None of them really compel me. | Jul 11 02:39 |
| ThistleWeb | there is a qt4 settings which kinda lets you theme them | Jul 11 02:39 |
| oiaohm | Theming is a bug bear that should be stored out. | Jul 11 02:40 |
| _Hicham_ | look, both DE have their cons and pros | Jul 11 02:40 |
| _Hicham_ | but everything is standardized thanks to freedesktop.org | Jul 11 02:40 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not a problem to use kde apps inside gnome | Jul 11 02:40 |
| oiaohm | KDE users normally do use a Mix of GTK and QT happly. | Jul 11 02:40 |
| ThistleWeb | kde did make a point of integration yes, but the vast majority of the DE "conflicts" are done by fanbois on both sides, the devs on both sides have long been equals working together where possible to make it a better experience for all | Jul 11 02:41 |
| _Hicham_ | and vice versa | Jul 11 02:41 |
| _Hicham_ | u need gtk apps inside kde | Jul 11 02:41 |
| blankthemuffin | maybe that's just because there's less good kde apps so they have to use gnome ones oiaohm. :P | Jul 11 02:41 |
| oiaohm | No blankthemuffin | Jul 11 02:41 |
| oiaohm | KDE users are not stupid. | Jul 11 02:41 |
| _Hicham_ | while u don't need kde apps in gnome | Jul 11 02:41 |
| blankthemuffin | That was a joke oiaohm. | Jul 11 02:41 |
| _Hicham_ | in kde, u will need firefox | Jul 11 02:42 |
| oiaohm | No project can hope to have the best of the best all the time. | Jul 11 02:42 |
| ThistleWeb | I use smplayer, skype, vlc, opera which are all qt apps | Jul 11 02:42 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't see how any of this is relevant anyway. | Jul 11 02:42 |
| oiaohm | That is exactly what gnome tries to do. | Jul 11 02:42 |
| ThistleWeb | I'd prefer there were gtk front ends for all of them | Jul 11 02:42 |
| ThistleWeb | but there's not | Jul 11 02:42 |
| oiaohm | With the logic we only need one runtime. | Jul 11 02:42 |
| blankthemuffin | Oh you are right ThistleWeb, I forgot about skype and vlc. | Jul 11 02:42 |
| oiaohm | Software world is not this way. | Jul 11 02:43 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, skype on a gtk desktop looks horrible | Jul 11 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | I stopped using vlc because they switched to qt | Jul 11 02:43 |
| oiaohm | Developers should expect users to be using a mix of GTK and QT | Jul 11 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | I use GNOME MPlayer | Jul 11 02:43 |
| ThistleWeb | vlc aint too bad | Jul 11 02:43 |
| blankthemuffin | ThistleWeb, skype on linux is pretty crappy anyway. | Jul 11 02:43 |
| oiaohm | And working out ways of making them theme well. | Jul 11 02:43 |
| oiaohm | KDE developers went out of there way with gtk-qt engine. | Jul 11 02:44 |
| ThistleWeb | in most cases peeps can have an all gtk or all qt stack to suit their needs, with the odd exception | Jul 11 02:44 |
| blankthemuffin | You seem to be very into telling developers what they should be doing oiaohm. | Jul 11 02:44 |
| oiaohm | How else can the deliever a good interface to there user for everything they want to run blankthemuffin. | Jul 11 02:44 |
| ThistleWeb | even a blend (in either direction) does not affect the functioning of any app, it's only the aesthetics that it looks out of place | Jul 11 02:44 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, GNOME is GNU | Jul 11 02:44 |
| _Hicham_ | the GNU project recommends GNOME/GTK | Jul 11 02:45 |
| blankthemuffin | oiaohm, well I write gnome apps, maybe I'm a selfish prick but I don't really care about KDE since I don't use it, and I don't like QT. | Jul 11 02:45 |
| oiaohm | GNU project does not care as much since both KDE and Gnome are LGPL top to bottom. | Jul 11 02:45 |
| ThistleWeb | I forgot scribus too, that's qt | Jul 11 02:45 |
| oiaohm | These days. | Jul 11 02:45 |
| oiaohm | GNU project only cared when QT had restrictive licencing. | Jul 11 02:46 |
| neighborlee | exactly | Jul 11 02:46 |
| _Hicham_ | the GTK model is way flexible | Jul 11 02:46 |
| _Hicham_ | I never liked Qt | Jul 11 02:46 |
| _Hicham_ | either its ui | Jul 11 02:46 |
| _Hicham_ | or its API | Jul 11 02:46 |
| ThistleWeb | I've grown into a GTK fan but I like where QT4 is going | Jul 11 02:47 |
| oiaohm | Main reason for the KDE 4.0 smash up was addressing that flexiblity issue. | Jul 11 02:47 |
| blankthemuffin | I like GTK 3 ThistleWeb. :D gnome-shell looks cool. | Jul 11 02:47 |
| _Hicham_ | plus, u can't program in pure C using Qt | Jul 11 02:47 |
| neighborlee | I used gnome tilll kde went lgpl,,now I use kde exclusively because I prefer its non dumbing down of things | Jul 11 02:47 |
| neighborlee | linus was right imho | Jul 11 02:48 |
| _Hicham_ | linus went back to gnome | Jul 11 02:48 |
| oiaohm | C vs C++ is about the difference left between gnome and kde from tech | Jul 11 02:48 |
| ThistleWeb | FOSS is about choice, fighting about stuff like DE's or WM's is pointless, it's all FOSS | Jul 11 02:48 |
| ThistleWeb | it's all Linux | Jul 11 02:48 |
| oiaohm | Linus flip flops _Hicham_ | Jul 11 02:48 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, url | Jul 11 02:48 |
| blankthemuffin | indeed ThistleWeb | Jul 11 02:49 |
| neighborlee | its n ot all foss guys dont be ridiculous | Jul 11 02:49 |
| ThistleWeb | it dont matter what your preference is | Jul 11 02:49 |
| neighborlee | some de's know when to reject certain things, it seems some dont | Jul 11 02:49 |
| _Hicham_ | http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2009/01/linus-torvalds-ditches-kde-4-for-gnome.html | Jul 11 02:49 |
| oiaohm | And he will most likely ditch gnome again. | Jul 11 02:49 |
| blankthemuffin | I also don't see the point of what linus is using for example, who gives a crap what he uses. | Jul 11 02:50 |
| oiaohm | Kde 4 was a dog. | Jul 11 02:50 |
| _Hicham_ | there is a lot of GTK DE | Jul 11 02:50 |
| ThistleWeb | some integrate some non-free stuff in different ways | Jul 11 02:50 |
| _Hicham_ | while there is only KDE which is based on QT, correct me if I am wrong | Jul 11 02:50 |
| ThistleWeb | each distro is different too in that regard | Jul 11 02:50 |
| ThistleWeb | as far as I know, kde is the only qt environment | Jul 11 02:51 |
| _Hicham_ | linus chooses what suits his needs | Jul 11 02:51 |
| ThistleWeb | I've never seen any others anyway | Jul 11 02:51 |
| oiaohm | There are not that many things classed as desktops. | Jul 11 02:51 |
| blankthemuffin | KDE SUCKS - Linus doesn't use it anymore. Stop using it now. | Jul 11 02:51 |
| oiaohm | There are qt windows managers. | Jul 11 02:51 |
| oiaohm | Outside kde. | Jul 11 02:51 |
| ThistleWeb | really? | Jul 11 02:51 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : examples plz | Jul 11 02:51 |
| ThistleWeb | which ones | Jul 11 02:51 |
| neighborlee | ditching over right click menu access...interesting....;) | Jul 11 02:52 |
| blankthemuffin | The answer is to use xfce. | Jul 11 02:52 |
| oiaohm | http://xwinman.org/otherdesktops.php In desktops there are stacks of different ones done in different toolkits. | Jul 11 02:52 |
| oiaohm | Yes GTK does have numbers. | Jul 11 02:53 |
| neighborlee | xfce is way too old school | Jul 11 02:53 |
| blankthemuffin | xfce is really nice, especially on old hardware. I wouldn't mind some more functionality though. | Jul 11 02:53 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jul 11 02:53 |
| _Hicham_ | this discussion is pointless | Jul 11 02:54 |
| _Hicham_ | both KDE and GNOME are great | Jul 11 02:54 |
| _Hicham_ | we don't want another windows | Jul 11 02:55 |
| _Hicham_ | a single DE means a monopoly | Jul 11 02:55 |
| _Hicham_ | we don't want monopolies anymore | Jul 11 02:55 |
| _Hicham_ | that is life | Jul 11 02:55 |
| _Hicham_ | difference is what makes us live | Jul 11 02:55 |
| _Hicham_ | and compete | Jul 11 02:56 |
| oiaohm | Since QT change to more open LGPL we will see more things based on it. | Jul 11 02:56 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, the debate over distros or DE's is all just infighting | Jul 11 02:56 |
| blankthemuffin | AND WIN | Jul 11 02:56 |
| ThistleWeb | choice is good | Jul 11 02:56 |
| oiaohm | The focus need to be on sorting out theming | Jul 11 02:56 |
| oiaohm | and not caring about the toolkit. | Jul 11 02:57 |
| neighborlee | it does not mean a monopoly..it depends on the structure of said organization lets not be silly here ;) | Jul 11 02:57 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, totally agree we willl | Jul 11 02:57 |
| blankthemuffin | Making the theme systems identical would basically mean using a single environment though. | Jul 11 02:58 |
| oiaohm | No it does not blankthemuffin | Jul 11 02:58 |
| ThistleWeb | there are wasy to get it close | Jul 11 02:58 |
| ThistleWeb | close enough to look native | Jul 11 02:58 |
| ThistleWeb | which is all that matters | Jul 11 02:58 |
| blankthemuffin | Oh yeah, I mean you could easily do a gtk-qt kinda thing. | Jul 11 02:59 |
| oiaohm | Theming close off is all that is needed for most users. | Jul 11 02:59 |
| ThistleWeb | qt4 settings does part of the difference, but the open file dialog box is still the KDE one with gtk icons | Jul 11 02:59 |
| ThistleWeb | gtk(ish) icons | Jul 11 02:59 |
| oiaohm | There is not a mirror of qt-gtk for gnome and other gtk based. | Jul 11 02:59 |
| blankthemuffin | Make one then :P | Jul 11 02:59 |
| ThistleWeb | it'll get better with time, for a start of both projects there was no co-operation, there has been for a while now | Jul 11 03:00 |
| ThistleWeb | better for both sides | Jul 11 03:00 |
| oiaohm | Yep it too major talking to the lead developers of both project to get them to use a common menu system. | Jul 11 03:01 |
| oiaohm | Idea back then was Gnome would kill KDE or KDE would kill gnome. | Jul 11 03:01 |
| oiaohm | So compadiblity was not a benifit to either. | Jul 11 03:01 |
| ThistleWeb | the choice of theme also helps / hinders it too. Clearlooks is a good one for matching up | Jul 11 03:01 |
| blankthemuffin | sounds a bit like windows and linux having a common development environment eh. | Jul 11 03:02 |
| oiaohm | We have got so far. | Jul 11 03:02 |
| oiaohm | Worse blankthemuffin | Jul 11 03:02 |
| oiaohm | KDE developers are working on an common developer environment for Linux windows and Mac OS. | Jul 11 03:02 |
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| _Hicham_ | great | Jul 11 03:03 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, QT does seem to be very cross platform | Jul 11 03:03 |
| nenolod | ok, i don't get your site. is it some sort of joke? | Jul 11 03:03 |
| _Hicham_ | kde for windows will speed up development | Jul 11 03:03 |
| ThistleWeb | not just computing either but mobile stuff too | Jul 11 03:03 |
| blankthemuffin | All the gui toolkits are pretty well cross platform, if you ignore the crappy ones like winforms. gtk, qt, wxwidgets. | Jul 11 03:04 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: so what exactly does that leave? | Jul 11 03:05 |
| blankthemuffin | there is a full stop after winforms. the others are examples of good toolkits ( in a cross platform sense ) | Jul 11 03:05 |
| oiaohm | wxwidgets almost always looks out of place. | Jul 11 03:06 |
| oiaohm | No matter the platform its on. | Jul 11 03:06 |
| oiaohm | QT themes is quite well with Windows OS X and KDE. | Jul 11 03:06 |
| oiaohm | Has issues with GTK. | Jul 11 03:06 |
| nenolod | ok, well | Jul 11 03:07 |
| nenolod | i have a question | Jul 11 03:07 |
| nenolod | maybe it is a really stupid question | Jul 11 03:07 |
| nenolod | but | Jul 11 03:07 |
| nenolod | is boycottnovell some sort of joke? without novell/suse, you wouldn't have ALSA, for instance. so i think you guys are cutting off your noses to spite your face? | Jul 11 03:08 |
| nenolod | that said, i avoid anything that uses RPM already | Jul 11 03:08 |
| ThistleWeb | nenolod: have you read any articles on the site? | Jul 11 03:08 |
| nenolod | http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/30/hijack-by-proxy-xen/ all of this is bullshit | Jul 11 03:09 |
| nenolod | i'm sure all of the other articles lack the same journalistic integrity | Jul 11 03:09 |
| nenolod | they acquired a company, sure, but the code is GPL. it can just be forked if there is a problem. | Jul 11 03:10 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, Thats really interesting, coming from someone with your sentence structures ;) | Jul 11 03:10 |
| nenolod | no, really. i don't know if this is a troll or not. | Jul 11 03:11 |
| nenolod | every article i have read thus far reads like a troll. | Jul 11 03:11 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jul 11 03:11 |
| blankthemuffin | neighborlee, criticising somebodies English instead of their points makes you look like an idiot. | Jul 11 03:11 |
| ThistleWeb | in other words it tells you a different version of events from the rest of the media? | Jul 11 03:11 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, if it bothers you that much and you want to try to make a difference in the world..create your own site and start hacking away..or feel free to make comments on BN I guess | Jul 11 03:11 |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, I wasn't critizing his english..but jumping to that conclusion is really in bad taste | Jul 11 03:12 |
| nenolod | the entire site is in bad taste | Jul 11 03:12 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, then fine hack away | Jul 11 03:12 |
| neighborlee | its a free world | Jul 11 03:12 |
| ThistleWeb | notice that BN includes links to the pages quoted, and put the full text so you can see if the quote is being taken out of context | Jul 11 03:12 |
| blankthemuffin | I just read "coming from someone with your sentence structures" | Jul 11 03:12 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, and you are in bad taste. | Jul 11 03:13 |
| nenolod | as an open source developer, i find the site offensive, as novell does contribute a lot of work back to us. | Jul 11 03:13 |
| nenolod | as stated above, do you enjoy sound on linux? | Jul 11 03:13 |
| neighborlee | now your just being sillly | Jul 11 03:13 |
| nenolod | no i'm not. without the work of suse, ALSA would not have been successful. | Jul 11 03:14 |
| ThistleWeb | or it'd be done by someone else | Jul 11 03:14 |
| nenolod | i mean, do you guys even think? or are you biased against novell based on political moves they have made | Jul 11 03:14 |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: it does not matter, the fact is, they did the work, and they deserve to at least be treated with respect as a result | Jul 11 03:15 |
| nenolod | if you guys are boycotting novell, you should stop using ALSA, glibc, gcc, and X windows. | Jul 11 03:15 |
| nenolod | i am not kidding | Jul 11 03:15 |
| ThistleWeb | some stuff they've done is good | Jul 11 03:16 |
| nenolod | put your money where your mouth is | Jul 11 03:16 |
| ThistleWeb | their political choices are not | Jul 11 03:16 |
| nenolod | or stop blogging crap which ultimately hurts the open source movement | Jul 11 03:16 |
| ThistleWeb | their pact with MS is not | Jul 11 03:16 |
| blankthemuffin | Some stuff which microsoft have done is good. | Jul 11 03:16 |
| nenolod | i don't care about their pact with MS | Jul 11 03:16 |
| blankthemuffin | believe it or not | Jul 11 03:16 |
| ThistleWeb | of course you dont | Jul 11 03:16 |
| neighborlee | obviously | Jul 11 03:16 |
| nenolod | as i said | Jul 11 03:16 |
| nenolod | if you guys are boycotting novell, you should stop using ALSA, glibc, gcc, and X windows. | Jul 11 03:16 |
| ThistleWeb | novell are used as attack dogs | Jul 11 03:16 |
| ThistleWeb | they are another proxy for MS | Jul 11 03:17 |
| nenolod | how many of you use X? | Jul 11 03:17 |
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| ThistleWeb | novell have handcuffed themselves to the MS Titanic | Jul 11 03:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | hey schestowitz, did you hear that miguel commented on my blog? | Jul 11 03:18 |
| ThistleWeb | they may have done good stuff in the past, but they are not much more than a department of MS now | Jul 11 03:19 |
| _Hicham_ | url? | Jul 11 03:19 |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: i'm not disagreeing, but i find this site to be in bad taste, and generally counter productive | Jul 11 03:19 |
| neighborlee | ThistleWeb, I doubt its going to matter what we say..his?her mind is made up it seems.... and we are all traitors | Jul 11 03:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2009/07/09/java-development-outpaces-c-development-on-all-platforms | Jul 11 03:19 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell is still Novell | Jul 11 03:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | scroll down for the comments | Jul 11 03:19 |
| nenolod | neighborlee: traitors, no. masturbating to richard stallman's words too much? probably. | Jul 11 03:19 |
| ThistleWeb | to who? Novell? Microsoft? I agree, they like keeping their secret (and often illegal) deals secret | Jul 11 03:20 |
| ThistleWeb | anyone who exposes them will be seen as traitors to the cause | Jul 11 03:20 |
| *nenolod dislikes the Novell<->Microsoft deal just as much as anyone else for the record | Jul 11 03:20 | |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: no, my issue is that schestowitz is irresponsible | Jul 11 03:20 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell is still a great contributor to Linux | Jul 11 03:20 |
| nenolod | he blogs utter bullshit like | Jul 11 03:20 |
| ThistleWeb | a deal which harms the entire linux community | Jul 11 03:21 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, ok that was just gross, but hey whatever trips your trigger | Jul 11 03:21 |
| nenolod | Xen is doomed because Microsoft/Citrix bought out XenSource. | Jul 11 03:21 |
| nenolod | that "analysis" is false. | Jul 11 03:21 |
| nenolod | there are similar analyses that are also false. | Jul 11 03:21 |
| ThistleWeb | when MS make their claims about patent infringement which are (to most peeps) completely made up, the one company who decided to sign a pact was Novell, giving them legitimacy they never had | Jul 11 03:22 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft may go open source too | Jul 11 03:22 |
| nenolod | XenServer is so much unlike open source Xen it is not funny. Most of it is written in OCaml. | Jul 11 03:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah but nenolod, microsoft only created c# to compete with java | Jul 11 03:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | java is clearly the superior solution of the two | Jul 11 03:22 |
| blankthemuffin | what java apps do you use Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 03:22 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: i don't really care about java or C# | Jul 11 03:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: I'm coding in it. | Jul 11 03:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | I gave up trying to use c#, its a piece of shit | Jul 11 03:22 |
| nenolod | i keep noting that people don't wish to argue my points | Jul 11 03:23 |
| nenolod | and only like to argue when i say words like 'bullshit', calling them gross | Jul 11 03:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: microsoft wants to kill everything | Jul 11 03:23 |
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| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, how so, and I code in both, the only java app I use is netbeans, the mono apps I use are tomboy, f-spot, gnome-do, banshee, monodevelop. | Jul 11 03:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | there really isnt something to argue | Jul 11 03:24 |
| nenolod | the truth is ugly, and people are irresponsible here | Jul 11 03:24 |
| ThistleWeb | the 2 commercial linux vendors, novell sold out and did what was good for novell, while RH didnt'. RH did what was good for RH AND the linux community at large | Jul 11 03:24 |
| nenolod | umm | Jul 11 03:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: I do not have mono installed, I dont want that shit installed on my machine | Jul 11 03:24 |
| nenolod | there's more than 2 commercial linux vendors | Jul 11 03:24 |
| ThistleWeb | commercial distro vendors | Jul 11 03:24 |
| nenolod | RH has made it's own share of sins too | Jul 11 03:24 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, im so sorry our freedom to choose is so against your very existence...unlike the choice others have in what comes installed by default | Jul 11 03:24 |
| ThistleWeb | RH is not perfect | Jul 11 03:24 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, that's your choice, but has nothing to do with anything really. | Jul 11 03:25 |
| nenolod | neighborlee: you do not have the freedom to write libelous content. | Jul 11 03:25 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, your baseless fear has nothing to do with java apps vs mono apps. | Jul 11 03:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: why would I want to use slow memory hungry badly written apps? | Jul 11 03:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | I mean, really, why would I? | Jul 11 03:25 |
| neighborlee | exactly | Jul 11 03:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | if I wanted to run windows, I'd run windows | Jul 11 03:25 |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jul 11 03:25 |
| _Hicham_ | no company is perfect | Jul 11 03:26 |
| _Hicham_ | apart MS | Jul 11 03:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, microsoft really is perfect | Jul 11 03:26 |
| nenolod | neighborlee: my issue is that some of these articles are libelous. especially the one about how Xen is doomed because Citrix bought the original company. | Jul 11 03:26 |
| ThistleWeb | look at it this way, BN has a whole catalog of accusations against both MS and Novell, both are currently very rich, yet Roy does not appear to be fighting any lawauits for libel | Jul 11 03:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | they managed to make the worst software in existance, and sell it to everyone | Jul 11 03:26 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, you realise that java uses way more memory than mono right? | Jul 11 03:26 |
| _Hicham_ | MS is the perfect company of all times | Jul 11 03:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: not in my experience. | Jul 11 03:26 |
| blankthemuffin | and they're on par speed wise Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 03:26 |
| _Hicham_ | in all industries | Jul 11 03:26 |
| neighborlee | nenolod, well roy isn't here atm..feel free to comment on that article as well if you wish | Jul 11 03:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | mono 2.4 seems to be about half the speed doing the same tasks. | Jul 11 03:26 |
| _Hicham_ | mono has a java vm | Jul 11 03:26 |
| _Hicham_ | ikvm | Jul 11 03:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: its not a java vm | Jul 11 03:27 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a java vm | Jul 11 03:27 |
| ThistleWeb | that suggests that they'd rather not fight BN legally because it'd cost them money to lose and have his accusations brought to a wider audience | Jul 11 03:27 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, please, I'd like to see your benchmarks. | Jul 11 03:27 |
| _Hicham_ | ikvm | Jul 11 03:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | _Hicham_: no, it creates .net bytecode | Jul 11 03:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | .net/mono is still the vm | Jul 11 03:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: see shootout among others | Jul 11 03:27 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3 is actually right there. | Jul 11 03:27 |
| ThistleWeb | minor technical point but MS have never sold software | Jul 11 03:27 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-DE : it create bytecode, so it is a vm, right? | Jul 11 03:28 |
| ThistleWeb | they've sold software licences | Jul 11 03:28 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, shootout shows them on par speed wise, and mono winning memory wise. | Jul 11 03:28 |
| blankthemuffin | not to mention language benchmarks are stupid. | Jul 11 03:28 |
| blankthemuffin | My quick metric, netbeans just took 27 seconds to start. monodevelop just took 5 seconds. | Jul 11 03:29 |
| _Hicham_ | Language Benchmarks : VB.NET is the quickest language runtime | Jul 11 03:29 |
| _Hicham_ | of all languages | Jul 11 03:29 |
| blankthemuffin | netbeans is using 125MB of ram, MonoDevelop is using 40MB | Jul 11 03:30 |
| blankthemuffin | 125MB of ram, what the hell, I havn't even opened anything yet. | Jul 11 03:30 |
| ThistleWeb | that's the richer aroma of the beans ;) | Jul 11 03:30 |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: i hate MS just as much as the next person, and i don't agree with a lot of what novell does, but when you're talking about stuff that i use in production and it's FUD, then I find it offensive. | Jul 11 03:30 |
| _Hicham_ | so mono is better | Jul 11 03:30 |
| _Hicham_ | vive mono and de icaza | Jul 11 03:30 |
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| _Hicham_ | they are bringing the best to linux | Jul 11 03:30 |
| ThistleWeb | nenolod: then feel free to be offended | Jul 11 03:30 |
| _Hicham_ | hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha | Jul 11 03:31 |
| _Hicham_ | hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha | Jul 11 03:31 |
| blankthemuffin | I never said that. _Hicham_ I'm just saying that when you compare it to java, please get your statistics somewhere near right. | Jul 11 03:31 |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: well, there is no reason for BN to offend people, when better journalism methods could be applied | Jul 11 03:32 |
| _Hicham_ | blankthemuffin: there isn't any rigourous language metrics yet | Jul 11 03:32 |
| ThistleWeb | nenolod: tell that to the armies of shills parrotting MS propaganda and quoting different sources which are all MS shills | Jul 11 03:32 |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: "shill" is a dangerous word | Jul 11 03:33 |
| _Hicham_ | de Icaza is a great person | Jul 11 03:33 |
| _Hicham_ | he created GNOME | Jul 11 03:33 |
| blankthemuffin | There is no such thing as a rigorous language benchmark. Comparing two languages is utterly retarded unless you have a specific objective in mind. | Jul 11 03:33 |
| ThistleWeb | the lack of any journalistic integrity in the mainstream media means there is a gap for sites like BN | Jul 11 03:33 |
| _Hicham_ | and now he is recreating it | Jul 11 03:33 |
| _Hicham_ | he says that GNOME is his baby | Jul 11 03:33 |
| nenolod | ThistleWeb: it is very easy to become biased when you use words like "shill", because using ad-hominem attacks against people with a disagreeing view is a typical propaganda technique | Jul 11 03:34 |
| ThistleWeb | all the stories about Chrome OS are filled with quotes from MS employees with different company name badges | Jul 11 03:34 |
| nenolod | so calling people BN disagrees with "shills" is no better | Jul 11 03:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | [10:47:44] <blankthemuffin> My quick metric, netbeans just took 27 seconds to start. monodevelop just took 5 seconds. | Jul 11 03:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, but who uses netbeans? | Jul 11 03:34 |
| blankthemuffin | Netbeans was faster than eclipse last time I used them both. | Jul 11 03:34 |
| *nenolod uses xemacs | Jul 11 03:35 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I use eclipse, it starts in about 5 seconds. | Jul 11 03:35 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, and as kde gains steam, it might remain HIS ;)) | Jul 11 03:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | last time I noticed, monodevelop couldn't use hg yet | Jul 11 03:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | eclipse can | Jul 11 03:35 |
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| nenolod | _Hicham_: hopefully he recreates GNOME in a way that doesn't make me wish i owned a macintosh | Jul 11 03:36 |
| fewa | "Chrome OS" is vapor-ware | Jul 11 03:36 |
| fewa | it doesnt exist | Jul 11 03:36 |
| ThistleWeb | the way I see MS is that they are the abusive hubby, who#s battered the shit out of his wife time and time again, while Novell are the concerned friend trying to convince the wife to take him back and that he's really changed | Jul 11 03:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: thats not entirely true at all | Jul 11 03:36 |
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| Diablo-D3 | fewa: it runs great in virtualbox, btw | Jul 11 03:36 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, where can i download it? | Jul 11 03:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | you cant. | Jul 11 03:37 |
| nenolod | (is there any good desktop environment on unix anymore? GNOME 2.26.1 makes me sad.) | Jul 11 03:37 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, so you admit you work at google | Jul 11 03:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | nope, I admit to having good friends who work at google | Jul 11 03:37 |
| fewa | its suppose to be based on Chromium on Linux | Jul 11 03:37 |
| nenolod | it uses weyland + chromium fwiw | Jul 11 03:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a linux kernel with an androidy userland and uses weyland | Jul 11 03:38 |
| fewa | yuck | Jul 11 03:38 |
| nenolod | weyland is a novell product too haha. | Jul 11 03:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | weyland is more of a redhat product, actually | Jul 11 03:38 |
| nenolod | eh, i thought it was keithp | Jul 11 03:38 |
| fewa | da google doesnt find "weyland" | Jul 11 03:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont think he started it | Jul 11 03:39 |
| _Hicham_ | vive the world | Jul 11 03:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | though its obviously inspired by keithp's micro X server he had a couple years back | Jul 11 03:40 |
| nenolod | oops | Jul 11 03:40 |
| nenolod | wayland | Jul 11 03:40 |
| nenolod | http://groups.google.com/group/wayland-display-server | Jul 11 03:40 |
| nenolod | this. | Jul 11 03:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | its spelled with an a? doh | Jul 11 03:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | at any rate, its very tied into DRI2 and other fdo projects | Jul 11 03:41 |
| nenolod | ah yeah it's krh | Jul 11 03:41 |
| nenolod | so redhat | Jul 11 03:41 |
| fewa | mah, wayland doesnt seem that bad | Jul 11 03:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | wayland is sorta like quartz for linux | Jul 11 03:41 |
| nenolod | anything is better than X | Jul 11 03:41 |
| fewa | but its X | Jul 11 03:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | full hardware acceleration up and down the pipeline | Jul 11 03:41 |
| fewa | so then it isnt quartz | Jul 11 03:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: not really | Jul 11 03:41 |
| nenolod | fewa: wayland isn't X | Jul 11 03:41 |
| _Hicham_ | vive KMS | Jul 11 03:41 |
| _Hicham_ | does anyone of u have KMS enabled? | Jul 11 03:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a display server | Jul 11 03:42 |
| fewa | so GTK and qt is ported? | Jul 11 03:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | but it doesnt use the X11 protocol | Jul 11 03:42 |
| nenolod | fewa: the eventual plan is to port them | Jul 11 03:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: gtk and qt already use cairo | Jul 11 03:42 |
| _Hicham_ | if u ever have KMS enabled, u will know what real graphics are | Jul 11 03:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | so they 90% work already | Jul 11 03:42 |
| fewa | ahh cairo is ported | Jul 11 03:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | cairo already has a native wayland output | Jul 11 03:42 |
| fewa | does it have its own protocol? | Jul 11 03:43 |
| nenolod | no it works on magical fairy dust, not unlike what the authors of BN snort up before writing about things it does not understand | Jul 11 03:44 |
| blankthemuffin | http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2009/06/27/rms-gets-it-wrong-c-and-net-suck-no-matter-whos-you-use lol Diablo-D3, nice article, good discussion of the various reasons you don't like .net | Jul 11 03:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: bn isnt so bad | Jul 11 03:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | the problem with bn is roy ascribes maliciousness on the part of microsoft | Jul 11 03:48 |
| nenolod | no, but it gets a little out there | Jul 11 03:48 |
| nenolod | it's like | Jul 11 03:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft is simply incompetent | Jul 11 03:49 |
| nenolod | infowars.com | Jul 11 03:49 |
| blankthemuffin | They're like you Diablo-D3, they like to reference themselves and write with lots of emotion and very little substance. | Jul 11 03:49 |
| nenolod | of the opensource world | Jul 11 03:49 |
| *nenolod thinks bn is like the infowars.com of the opensource world, honestly | Jul 11 03:49 | |
| nenolod | lols | Jul 11 03:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: dude, you use slicehost, your opinion means shit | Jul 11 03:49 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : schestowitz didn't like this article I think | Jul 11 03:49 |
| nenolod | intentions are good, but it gets a bit out there | Jul 11 03:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: all I want is a language that doesnt backstab me down the road | Jul 11 03:50 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, interesting point. | Jul 11 03:50 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: C, C++ and python treat me nicely | Jul 11 03:50 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: maybe it's a competence issue | Jul 11 03:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: with C, I got tired of repeating myself | Jul 11 03:50 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: maybe it's a competence issue | Jul 11 03:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | I honestly shouldn't have to manage memory myself anymore. | Jul 11 03:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | I've done it for 15 years, I deserve a programming language that does the boring tasks for me so I can just go code. | Jul 11 03:51 |
| nenolod | so don't? | Jul 11 03:51 |
| nenolod | use boehm gc | Jul 11 03:51 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, you have to manage memory yourself in managed languages too, you just have a different set of problems to solve. | Jul 11 03:51 |
| nenolod | ? | Jul 11 03:51 |
| nenolod | lol | Jul 11 03:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | hoehm gc is kinda outdated | Jul 11 03:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | *boehm | Jul 11 03:51 |
| blankthemuffin | "How can I make the GC do this" rather than "How can I do this" | Jul 11 03:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | I mean, it performs well, and it works great | Jul 11 03:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | but its not perfect | Jul 11 03:52 |
| blankthemuffin | it doesn't perform that well, and it has corner cases where is simply breaks | Jul 11 03:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | and no, I'm not taking mono's usage of it into account: mono simply sucks dick | Jul 11 03:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | mono is the only framework I know of who has consistently fucked up boehm and caused it to leak | Jul 11 03:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't even know how you can say c# mono apps use less memory, blankthemuffin | Jul 11 03:53 |
| nenolod | they do than java | Jul 11 03:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | MD starts at 75 megs for me, ran for three weeks, and was using over 500 by the time I quit c# | Jul 11 03:54 |
| nenolod | but there is a reason for that | Jul 11 03:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | so something was fucking leaking somewhere | Jul 11 03:54 |
| nenolod | most java apps pre-import the entire framework | Jul 11 03:54 |
| blankthemuffin | Did you read the shootout benchmarks you referenced Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 03:54 |
| nenolod | while most .NET apps do not | Jul 11 03:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: yes, I'm not interested in them | Jul 11 03:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | the benchmarks do not tune memory usage | Jul 11 03:54 |
| blankthemuffin | then why use them as the basis for your argument? | Jul 11 03:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | the results will not even be consistent across different machines due to this | Jul 11 03:55 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: :D | Jul 11 03:55 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: i apologize on Diablo-D3's behalf. he's "special" | Jul 11 03:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: because I care about execution time | Jul 11 03:55 |
| blankthemuffin | then why use them as the basis for your argument? | Jul 11 03:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is what I cited them for. | Jul 11 03:55 |
| _Hicham_ | python will get better than java | Jul 11 03:55 |
| _Hicham_ | soon | Jul 11 03:55 |
| blankthemuffin | Oh so you cherry pick the bits that you like Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 03:56 |
| _Hicham_ | with all the google investment | Jul 11 03:56 |
| blankthemuffin | And leave the rest. | Jul 11 03:56 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: he does that a lot | Jul 11 03:56 |
| fewa | I think alot of people already think its better | Jul 11 03:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: no, at no point have I stated I care about memory usage in jvm 6. | Jul 11 03:56 |
| _Hicham_ | better use python | Jul 11 03:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | You have some weird memory usage fetish, thats your problem. | Jul 11 03:56 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: i do too | Jul 11 03:56 |
| _Hicham_ | python is a compact language | Jul 11 03:56 |
| blankthemuffin | you brought it up, not me Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 03:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: actually, you did earlier. | Jul 11 03:56 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: i take offense to the fact that i need 16GB OF RAM TO MAKE GNOME FUNCTION NICELY. | Jul 11 03:56 |
| blankthemuffin | <Diablo-D3> MD starts at 75 megs for me, ran for three weeks, and was using over 500 by the time I quit c# | Jul 11 03:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | [10:47:04] <blankthemuffin> Diablo-D3, shootout shows them on par speed wise, and mono winning memory wise. | Jul 11 03:57 |
| nenolod | can someone do something about GNOME and Mozilla's memory leaking insanity? thanks. | Jul 11 03:57 |
| nenolod | i'm about to boycott GNOME | Jul 11 03:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: firefox doesnt leak memory, it just pools it and only frees part of the pool when theres too much free | Jul 11 03:57 |
| blankthemuffin | Firefox eats ram like a bitch | Jul 11 03:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | 3.5 is also much better at memory usage | Jul 11 03:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | 3.5 also uses memory in comparison of how much you have | Jul 11 03:58 |
| _Hicham_ | what have free ram if not to use it? | Jul 11 03:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | it uses much less on memory starved systems | Jul 11 03:58 |
| fewa | fx3.5 is awesome | Jul 11 03:58 |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 11 03:58 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I have 8gb of memory, firefox in no way can use even a significant portion of it | Jul 11 03:58 |
| _Hicham_ | vive ff3.5 | Jul 11 03:58 |
| fewa | 8GB too | Jul 11 03:58 |
| fewa | 8GB is awesome | Jul 11 03:58 |
| blankthemuffin | not the point _Hicham_, more ram usage does not mean more performance. | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | total used free shared buffers cached | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | Mem: 7986 7078 908 0 591 3522 | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | this is workstation 1 | Jul 11 03:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have about 150 tabs open across a dozen windows, its currently using less than 600 megs of memory | Jul 11 03:59 |
| blankthemuffin | total used free shared buffers cached | Jul 11 03:59 |
| blankthemuffin | Mem: 3023 2664 358 0 366 1481 | Jul 11 03:59 |
| blankthemuffin | -/+ buffers/cache: 816 2206 | Jul 11 03:59 |
| blankthemuffin | Swap: 972 19 953 | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | workstation 2 has similar metrics | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | nenolod 24813 1.1 4.2 1183472 345376 ? Sl 12:25 6:59 /usr/lib/iceweasel/firefox-bin -a iceweasel | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | 1.2gb here | Jul 11 03:59 |
| nenolod | 18 tabs! | Jul 11 03:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: what version? | Jul 11 04:00 |
| nenolod | whatever is in sid | Jul 11 04:00 |
| fewa | thats 3.0 | Jul 11 04:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | 3.5 isnt in sid yet | Jul 11 04:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | 3.5 really improved some shitty memory management aspects | Jul 11 04:00 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: i'm seriously -><- this close to buying a mac | Jul 11 04:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | but lets face it, its no 2.0 | Jul 11 04:00 |
| oiaohm | Also that is not exactly true usage under Linux either. | Jul 11 04:00 |
| blankthemuffin | I'd buy a mac if I had free money nenolod, they're pretty cool. | Jul 11 04:00 |
| fewa | nenolod, you mean try to fix your performance problems by overpaying for a underperforming machine? | Jul 11 04:01 |
| nenolod | oiaohm: yeah, i understand that :p | Jul 11 04:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | 2.x used about 2 gigs, 3.0.x used about 1 | Jul 11 04:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: btw, I already bought a mac | Jul 11 04:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | I used it for a year | Jul 11 04:01 |
| nenolod | fewa: yes. that's the one thing that makes me say NO | Jul 11 04:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wasnt impressed | Jul 11 04:01 |
| nenolod | maybe i will succome to the MS overlords | Jul 11 04:01 |
| oiaohm | Mac single button mouse drives me nuts. | Jul 11 04:01 |
| blankthemuffin | why don't you like slicehost btw Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 04:01 |
| nenolod | but linux desktop experience has been really hideous lately | Jul 11 04:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: inferior to rapidxen | Jul 11 04:01 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: because he freeloads on my shit instead | Jul 11 04:01 |
| blankthemuffin | how so Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 04:02 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: because he's paying $0 for it | Jul 11 04:02 |
| oiaohm | nenolod: you are living through a major change. | Jul 11 04:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: slicehost tends to kill VPSes of people they dont like | Jul 11 04:02 |
| oiaohm | KMS DRI2 alteraions to how X11 works is upsetting things. | Jul 11 04:02 |
| nenolod | oiaohm: a major change indeed, i haven't ever owned a windows PC and would like to keep it that way | Jul 11 04:02 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, I hate that with shared hosts | Jul 11 04:02 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, I'd like to see an example of that. | Jul 11 04:02 |
| oiaohm | Real-time feature merges also upsetting things. | Jul 11 04:02 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, they sell "unlimited" then kill anyone that actually uses it | Jul 11 04:03 |
| fewa | Its unprofessional and misrepresentative | Jul 11 04:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: 99chan was on a slicehost vps at one point, they killed it | Jul 11 04:03 |
| blankthemuffin | thankfully we're not talking about dreamhost style shared hosting fewa. :P | Jul 11 04:03 |
| oiaohm | nenolod: things should start settling back down at the end of these 12 months. | Jul 11 04:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | theres been a few others, including anti-bush blogs, but I forget which ones | Jul 11 04:03 |
| blankthemuffin | probably because it broke the law Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 04:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | slicehost is not law enforcement | Jul 11 04:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | trying to enforce the law is a breach of contract | Jul 11 04:04 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, slicehost however is subject to the law. | Jul 11 04:04 |
| fewa | nearlyfreespeech.net | Jul 11 04:04 |
| blankthemuffin | and their TOS clearly says don't do anything illegal in the US. | Jul 11 04:04 |
| fewa | great for low-bandwidth type sites | Jul 11 04:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, they can report it to the appropriate authorities, and thats it | Jul 11 04:04 |
| _Hicham_ | who is in here using fedora? | Jul 11 04:04 |
| blankthemuffin | Since they host from the US they're going to have to deal with crappy us laws. | Jul 11 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: breach of contract means they can decide to no longer provide service. | Jul 11 04:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: it means they can decide to be sued. | Jul 11 04:05 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: i can assure you that if you use the vps you are freeloading to break the law, i will shut you down. | Jul 11 04:05 |
| oiaohm | Legally no Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 04:05 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, also note that rapidxen has the same terms in their TOS | Jul 11 04:05 |
| blankthemuffin | Seedboxes / Bittorrent / XDCC / etc: Forget it. While we make our best efforts to provide unmetered VPS solutions, RapidXen is not interested in facilitating copyright and legal violations. | Jul 11 04:06 |
| oiaohm | you agreed to the terms when you started hosting with them. Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 04:06 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: yes, and i just enforced that point 2 lines above ;) | Jul 11 04:06 |
| blankthemuffin | Spam / DDoS / Illegal Activity: If your intention is to use the RapidXen service to violate US law, disrupt our network and other networks, or send out unsolicited bulk email, then RapidXen is not for you. | Jul 11 04:06 |
| fewa | blankthemuffin, which crappy US laws? | Jul 11 04:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: I think you're confused at how the law works, but thats okay | Jul 11 04:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | most people are. | Jul 11 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Terms of service are terms of service Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 04:06 |
| fewa | blankthemuffin, the US has some good standings on freedom of speech | Jul 11 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Breach them no more service Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 04:07 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't live in the us, I don't give a shit how their law works Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 04:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: uh-huh. | Jul 11 04:07 |
| oiaohm | Some hosts say no porn. | Jul 11 04:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: yup, however simply stating "no illegal shit" is merely asking for trouble. | Jul 11 04:07 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: slice of muffin? | Jul 11 04:07 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: that's awesome. | Jul 11 04:07 |
| oiaohm | No its is not Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 04:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | nenolod: btw, blankthemuffin is a pro-C# troll | Jul 11 04:08 |
| blankthemuffin | I think he already knows Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Techincally it gives the host lots of flexablity. Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 04:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: only within the aspect of the law | Jul 11 04:08 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: i don't really care | Jul 11 04:08 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: keep in mind, i've use the lowlevel mono vm in production for speeding up LSL evaluation | Jul 11 04:08 |
| nenolod | Diablo-D3: so i don't really mind mono | Jul 11 04:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: it doesnt give you the freedom to axe VPSes because you dont like their content | Jul 11 04:08 |
| oiaohm | The problem USA freespeech laws don't apply to TOS. | Jul 11 04:09 |
| fewa | People should read nearlyfreespeech.net's ToS/PP https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/about/terms.php https://www.nearlyfreespeech.net/about/privacy.php | Jul 11 04:09 |
| blankthemuffin | fewa, DMCA for one. Not that I think copyright infringement is good, but DMCA is insane. | Jul 11 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Reason they are not stoping you from doing freespeech. | Jul 11 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Just choosing if you are allows to use there stage to do it or not. | Jul 11 04:09 |
| blankthemuffin | Why would you even have hosting in the us if you were going to be doing shady activities. Seems rather retarded. | Jul 11 04:09 |
| fewa | having ISP's violate net neutrality like verizon does hinders freedom of speech | Jul 11 04:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | RX doesn't have a history of taking down VPSes from people they hate, Slicehost does | Jul 11 04:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | so clearly Slicehost is a bunch of fuckwits. | Jul 11 04:10 |
| oiaohm | ISP have never been netural. | Jul 11 04:10 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, lots of emotion still, very little content. | Jul 11 04:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: do I look like a news service to you? | Jul 11 04:10 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: agree. | Jul 11 04:10 |
| oiaohm | You some how mixing up ISP for someone that has to give a rats about freespeech. | Jul 11 04:10 |
| fewa | The internet is suppose to be End-2-end, ISP's regularly try to impede on this | Jul 11 04:11 |
| nenolod | blankthemuffin: plus he's infecting my company's image with his own bias. i should go axe his VPS. don't you agree? | Jul 11 04:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not at all, they merely have to care about money | Jul 11 04:11 |
| fewa | nenolod, how does it effect the views of the company | Jul 11 04:11 |
| blankthemuffin | nenolod, I'd feel mean if I said yes. | Jul 11 04:11 |
| nenolod | fewa: that was called 'trolling' | Jul 11 04:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: doing things that decrease potential future revenue is rather retarded. | Jul 11 04:11 |
| oiaohm | don't you remember compuserv. | Jul 11 04:12 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: | Jul 11 04:12 |
| oiaohm | At one point would only provide users with content of there choosing. | Jul 11 04:12 |
| nenolod | you know what would be great | Jul 11 04:12 |
| oiaohm | Again not a breach of freespeech. | Jul 11 04:12 |
| nenolod | is if haiku would actually release something | Jul 11 04:12 |
| nenolod | don't you all agree? | Jul 11 04:13 |
| oiaohm | Because you had the option to use others. | Jul 11 04:13 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 11 04:13 | |
| fewa | Verizon should be injuncted for pushing prior constraint on its users by blocking port 80 incoming | Jul 11 04:13 |
| blankthemuffin | fewa, here at least, it's a problem with regulation and the government not the ISPs themselves. There is a really good ISP in Australia which supports freedom of speech and a non-censored internet, but unfortunately they're working against idiot politicians. | Jul 11 04:13 |
| fewa | and 25 outgoing | Jul 11 04:13 |
| fewa | its a violation on free speech | Jul 11 04:15 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 11 04:15 |
| fewa | oiaohm, how is it not? | Jul 11 04:16 |
| oiaohm | What has happened in this world people have stopped reading contracts. | Jul 11 04:16 |
| fewa | contracts are suppose to be a mutual agreement | Jul 11 04:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | worse yet, when did non-lawyers think they could write them | Jul 11 04:17 |
| fewa | but contracts these days have no such negotiation | Jul 11 04:17 |
| oiaohm | And expect to have everything even at cheeper rates because some features are removed. | Jul 11 04:17 |
| fewa | they are form contracts | Jul 11 04:17 |
| blankthemuffin | worse yet, when did they become something non-lawyers can't read. | Jul 11 04:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: actually, they do | Jul 11 04:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | I simply dont do business with them | Jul 11 04:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | if a company has a history of being a bunch of dicks, I dont do business with them | Jul 11 04:17 |
| oiaohm | You can choose to except or refuse a contract. | Jul 11 04:18 |
| oiaohm | People have just giving up doing that. | Jul 11 04:18 |
| fewa | Diablo-D3, thats a good policy, but assuming that anyone can put any sort of terms in a "contract" is just out of touch with reality | Jul 11 04:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | fewa: actually, I have negotiated pricing terms with larger companies before | Jul 11 04:18 |
| oiaohm | You almost can. | Jul 11 04:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats the more important part of a contract | Jul 11 04:18 |
| fewa | and that they can advertise something other than what the contract says | Jul 11 04:18 |
| oiaohm | I have had port blocks changed before. | Jul 11 04:18 |
| oiaohm | Just from simply point out what I would be doing. And they were changed in the contract. | Jul 11 04:19 |
| oiaohm | Most people don't even bother asking if the contract can be changed fewa. | Jul 11 04:19 |
| oiaohm | Then complain when they are living with a restriction. | Jul 11 04:20 |
| fewa | I think its a problem of transaction costs | Jul 11 04:20 |
| oiaohm | Sorry don't read contract don't ask your problem. | Jul 11 04:20 |
| oiaohm | Port 80 was blocked by a lot of ISP | Jul 11 04:20 |
| oiaohm | 's | Jul 11 04:20 |
| oiaohm | because people would configure there modems wrong. | Jul 11 04:20 |
| fewa | funny | Jul 11 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Yep remote access port 80 | Jul 11 04:21 |
| oiaohm | admin/admin password | Jul 11 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Yep not good. | Jul 11 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Some of the blocks are ass protection. | Jul 11 04:21 |
| fewa | well that makes sense | Jul 11 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Yet lot of cases if you ask the block can be removed. | Jul 11 04:22 |
| fewa | ive never ben behind that | Jul 11 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Some charage a 15 dollar fee to confirm. | Jul 11 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Ie that you have everything configured right before they allow. | Jul 11 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Its also like 25 out going. Lot of worms at on point were connection to non isps systems on that. | Jul 11 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Some of the restrictions are left over of older problems. | Jul 11 04:24 |
| fewa | well port 25 outgoing is about spam | Jul 11 04:24 |
| fewa | but its easy to block incoming from dynamic IP ranges | Jul 11 04:25 |
| fewa | blocking outgoing blocks speech, while blocking incoming is totally protected and understandable | Jul 11 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Most of the blocks are removable if you ask. | Jul 11 04:29 |
| fewa | well ok | Jul 11 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Or choose different contract. | Jul 11 04:29 |
| oiaohm | With them. | Jul 11 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Reason why its not freespeech issue. | Jul 11 04:29 |
| oiaohm | TOS if you agree to it you have to put up with it. | Jul 11 04:29 |
| fewa | oiaohm, not quite | Jul 11 04:30 |
| oiaohm | If you are on long term contract. | Jul 11 04:30 |
| fewa | but if they unblock, NP | Jul 11 04:31 |
| oiaohm | If you agree to a long term TOS with a Contract and don't read it. Its not there problem. | Jul 11 04:31 |
| oiaohm | Hopefully people will get smart enough to only do that stupidity once. | Jul 11 04:32 |
| fewa | alot of people dont have the time to read form contracts | Jul 11 04:32 |
| oiaohm | Contract law is quite blunt on that. | Jul 11 04:34 |
| oiaohm | If you don't read it and you sign for it. It is your problem. | Jul 11 04:34 |
| fewa | contract law says that a contract requires consideration | Jul 11 04:34 |
| oiaohm | If you choose not to do consideration that is your selection. | Jul 11 04:34 |
| oiaohm | Person giving you contract can presume you have read it in advance. | Jul 11 04:35 |
| fewa | oiaohm, most of these contracts are not even given by a person | Jul 11 04:35 |
| oiaohm | Law does not demard a person. | Jul 11 04:36 |
| oiaohm | To give you contract. | Jul 11 04:36 |
| fewa | oiaohm, it is rare that even the _other_ side has entered into consideration, except in a week aggregate form | Jul 11 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Contract is your first offer. | Jul 11 04:37 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but nobody made an offer | Jul 11 04:37 |
| oiaohm | If you accept the first offer and don't ask what else consideration is not required. | Jul 11 04:37 |
| oiaohm | They did. | Jul 11 04:37 |
| oiaohm | In a form of a contract. Most people these days don't bounce contracts. | Jul 11 04:38 |
| oiaohm | So don't ever enter the consideration stage. | Jul 11 04:38 |
| oiaohm | fewa: normally between businesses contracts bounce backwards and forwards many times before the final one is signed. | Jul 11 04:40 |
| fewa | oiaohm, what is the monetary value of those contracts? | Jul 11 04:40 |
| oiaohm | Variable. | Jul 11 04:41 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but what is the general value? | Jul 11 04:41 |
| fewa | typical sums of money? | Jul 11 04:42 |
| oiaohm | Can can be a simple as a ISP connection with static IP point to point linked that is about 100 dollars. | Jul 11 04:42 |
| oiaohm | Per month. | Jul 11 04:42 |
| oiaohm | Note point to point linked has no internet. | Jul 11 04:42 |
| fewa | Perhaps people need to be better informed of the information they need to negotiate | Jul 11 04:42 |
| oiaohm | That is the true problem. | Jul 11 04:43 |
| fewa | We need to take into account Stiglitz's theory of asymmetric information | Jul 11 04:43 |
| oiaohm | If you don't ask you will never get. | Jul 11 04:43 |
| fewa | but what questions can these people ask who know nothing about what they are buying? | Jul 11 04:44 |
| fewa | This is why truth in advertising is so important | Jul 11 04:44 |
| oiaohm | I back truth in advertising. | Jul 11 04:44 |
| oiaohm | Part of it is education. | Jul 11 04:45 |
| fewa | access to imformation | Jul 11 04:45 |
| fewa | *information | Jul 11 04:45 |
| oiaohm | People know more about cars then they know about ISP connection options. | Jul 11 04:45 |
| oiaohm | And most people don't know much about cars. | Jul 11 04:45 |
| fewa | "education" implies indoctrination | Jul 11 04:45 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Jul 11 04:46 |
| fewa | i guess not | Jul 11 04:46 |
| fewa | but i see access to imformation as more important than formal education | Jul 11 04:46 |
| oiaohm | formal education is a different thing. | Jul 11 04:46 |
| oiaohm | Everyone gets taught stuff threw different channels. | Jul 11 04:47 |
| oiaohm | Education could come in the form of mags, tv or internet. | Jul 11 04:47 |
| fewa | oiaohm, most education people get comes from other people | Jul 11 04:48 |
| oiaohm | Formal education has the bad habit of restricting free thinking. | Jul 11 04:48 |
| fewa | mags and tv are more noise | Jul 11 04:48 |
| fewa | other people has a better model of trust | Jul 11 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Lot of places formal education skips over teaching contract law. | Jul 11 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Think you will be working almost all your life with contracts is very stupid not to be included. | Jul 11 04:49 |
| broadcast and most publications are noise | Jul 11 04:49 | |
| fewa | twitter, RO media | Jul 11 04:50 |
| fewa | twitter, if there is no input, how can anyone expect a real output? | Jul 11 04:50 |
| oiaohm | Basically we have a case of educated stupidity. | Jul 11 04:50 |
| You should trust your peers and people without affiliations to the likes of GE, Westinghouse, M$, GM and so on. | Jul 11 04:50 | |
| *ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jul 11 04:50 | |
| oiaohm | Reading was always in the three R long time ago so people could understand what they are signing. | Jul 11 04:51 |
| fewa | then it started focusing on "performance" | Jul 11 04:51 |
| oiaohm | I also agree with the requirement more and more for contracts to be written in plain language. | Jul 11 04:51 |
| fewa | instead of understanding its about productivity, making happy dolts | Jul 11 04:52 |
| most are not so happy right now | Jul 11 04:52 | |
| fewa | They are God fearing americans, not knowing what is happening to them | Jul 11 04:52 |
| oiaohm | Of course it would be nice if contracts to genernal people were required to list other options on offer from the same company. | Jul 11 04:52 |
| even the "well off" have their savings go to zero. | Jul 11 04:52 | |
| A life time of effort, robbed. | Jul 11 04:53 | |
| oiaohm | The USA idea of Rights is so stupid. | Jul 11 04:53 |
| oiaohm | It makes people forget the importance of contracts. | Jul 11 04:53 |
| fewa | twitter, Elizabeth Warren - Comming collapse of the middle class http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A | Jul 11 04:53 |
| fewa | oiaohm, dont knock rights | Jul 11 04:54 |
| fewa | For the limits and shape of contracts are heavily determined by rights | Jul 11 04:54 |
| fewa | A world with only 2-party contracts is essentially anarchy | Jul 11 04:55 |
| oiaohm | You USA rights are part of a contract. | Jul 11 04:56 |
| fewa | people simply have no such time | Jul 11 04:56 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but they are a societal contract, everyone is bound by them | Jul 11 04:57 |
| oiaohm | No a written contract. | Jul 11 04:57 |
| oiaohm | That was signed off on. | Jul 11 04:57 |
| fewa | contract law is so centered on two distinct parties, usually a individual and a corporation | Jul 11 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Contract law is important. | Jul 11 04:57 |
| fewa | im not arguing that at all | Jul 11 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Without out it you don't have Rights. | Jul 11 04:58 |
| fewa | but the Constitution was not ruled by contract law | Jul 11 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Constitution is a contract. | Jul 11 04:58 |
| fewa | it was the collection of many distinct parties to agree on a common system | Jul 11 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Yep a big complex contract. | Jul 11 04:58 |
| fewa | nobody sued over the collapse of the Articles of confederation | Jul 11 04:58 |
| fewa | oiaohm, and every societal function is a contract | Jul 11 04:59 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but that doesnt mean it is ruled by formal rules of contract law | Jul 11 04:59 |
| oiaohm | Contract law does not only apply to written contracts. | Jul 11 04:59 |
| fewa | oiaohm, you are taking my statement out of context | Jul 11 05:00 |
| *neighborlee has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 11 05:00 | |
| fewa | contract law, and real law in general, is the writing down of common practices | Jul 11 05:00 |
| fewa | thats why it is called "common law" | Jul 11 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Idea of Contract law is one you agree to something backing out will come a price. | Jul 11 05:00 |
| fewa | this is a contract | Jul 11 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Contract law does not demard written. | Jul 11 05:01 |
| fewa | but the contract, and the legal platform, the societal consequences of failing to deliver a written contract | Jul 11 05:01 |
| fewa | or any legal formal contract | Jul 11 05:01 |
| Laws keep people from mugging and murdering each other. Society protects its members from predation. | Jul 11 05:01 | |
| fewa | is very seperate from the contract itsself | Jul 11 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Video'ed ... Written is just a form of recording a contract. | Jul 11 05:02 |
| fewa | oiaohm, you miss the point that most people DO understand contracts, they understand cause and effect, and lost promises | Jul 11 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Contract idea is a base of a culture. | Jul 11 05:03 |
| fewa | its the formalities that you wish to confuse with contracts, and social contracts themselves, that are misunderstood | Jul 11 05:03 |
| fewa | and for good reason, they are a lawyers, and nit-pickers wet dream | Jul 11 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Problem is people understand them as cause and effect. | Jul 11 05:04 |
| oiaohm | Not as something just by asking they might be able to change. | Jul 11 05:04 |
| fewa | That is because that is the way things work | Jul 11 05:04 |
| fewa | you are not telling people to understand contracts, but a social custom of negotiation | Jul 11 05:04 |
| oiaohm | People are supprised how much they can have changed just by asking. | Jul 11 05:04 |
| oiaohm would have people write contracts for their own slavery. | Jul 11 05:05 | |
| fewa | ^^^^ | Jul 11 05:05 |
| hey, it's free! | Jul 11 05:05 | |
| oiaohm | People basically do twitter | Jul 11 05:05 |
| fewa | if people only cared about arguing formal contracts nothing would get done | Jul 11 05:05 |
| oiaohm | Get themselves into debt work themselves into the ground and never think of ever asking the bank for help. | Jul 11 05:06 |
| fewa | the only reason contracts are so formal is a way of distracting people from arguing | Jul 11 05:06 |
| oiaohm | So they are basically slaves to what they agreed to twitter | Jul 11 05:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | hey guys | Jul 11 05:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | we're supposed to be hating mono, right? | Jul 11 05:06 |
| fewa | a way of appealing to authority | Jul 11 05:06 |
| fewa | a way of preventing people from having any real agreements | Jul 11 05:06 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: define hating. | Jul 11 05:07 |
| fewa | oiaohm, when people buy stuff from a farmers market they understand copyright law exceptionally well | Jul 11 05:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm saying, back me up on my blog | Jul 11 05:07 |
| fewa | If a price is posted then that is the price they can buy it for | Jul 11 05:07 |
| fewa | a posted price is a contract to sell | Jul 11 05:07 |
| oiaohm | Then if they don't like the price they ask for other options. | Jul 11 05:07 |
| well diablo-d3, you might not want to use it for much. "hate" is a strong word for software, even software from an evil company like M$. | Jul 11 05:07 | |
| fewa | but many companies try to obfusciate this | Jul 11 05:08 |
| oiaohm | Not really fewa | Jul 11 05:08 |
| fewa | say that they are not bound by these listed prices | Jul 11 05:08 |
| oiaohm | If people don't ask companies get lazy. | Jul 11 05:08 |
| fewa | they will even change the prices in the system so they do not match and can scam people | Jul 11 05:08 |
| fewa | oiaohm, NO, its that the transaction cost or arguing is too expensive | Jul 11 05:09 |
| fewa | as people have forgotten that all promises, even if made in advertising, are offers to sell | Jul 11 05:09 |
| fewa | ofers to deliver | Jul 11 05:09 |
| fewa | you are trying to redefine contract to law to mean legalize | Jul 11 05:09 |
| have you found out anything interesting and new, Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 05:10 | |
| Diablo-D3 | twitter: miguel posted on a comment, Im not sure if you heard that earlier | Jul 11 05:10 |
| fewa | but legalize is only a distraction with contracts that require low transaction costs | Jul 11 05:10 |
| fewa | and promise low transaction costs | Jul 11 05:10 |
| oiaohm | Wrong. False adveritsement I don't back. fewa producesnot doing as offered I don't agree with either. | Jul 11 05:10 |
| Ah, just got back from work. What and where did Miguel post? | Jul 11 05:11 | |
| Diablo-D3 | wait a sec | Jul 11 05:11 |
| I tried to post to his blog. It never showed up. | Jul 11 05:11 | |
| oiaohm | fewa: Over the years due to people not wanting to barter on price the negitionation bit as faded. | Jul 11 05:11 |
| fewa | Your just a real by the book person, you dont get that forcing everything to be written out has an enourmous cost that must be balanced | Jul 11 05:11 |
| blankthemuffin | is that supposed to mean something Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 05:11 |
| fewa | oiaohm, barter is good, i do back that | Jul 11 05:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: naw, I just think its neat he took time out of his busy schedule to troll on my blog and back up the FUDdy article I was calling out as FUD | Jul 11 05:12 |
| fewa | the unbalanced economic system has done alot of hurt | Jul 11 05:12 |
| oiaohm | Remember I said I also back plain written contracts as well. | Jul 11 05:12 |
| fewa | well ok | Jul 11 05:12 |
| blankthemuffin | and just because people agree with you doesn't mean they're going to back up your flawed arguments. | Jul 11 05:12 |
| oiaohm | Not these contracts so full of legal terms that you need a phd to read them. | Jul 11 05:12 |
| blankthemuffin | I say flawed, I should say non-existent. | Jul 11 05:13 |
| fewa | I am a strong supporter of that too | Jul 11 05:13 |
| oiaohm | Yet people don't refuse to sign those contracts fewa | Jul 11 05:13 |
| oiaohm | Companies only do some of these things because people let them get away with it. | Jul 11 05:13 |
| fewa | oiaohm, very good point | Jul 11 05:13 |
| Give us a link, Diable-D3, that would be interesting. | Jul 11 05:13 | |
| oiaohm | First rule of contract law don't sign anything you don't understand. | Jul 11 05:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | just a sec, Im banging out a response to someone | Jul 11 05:14 |
| *Drew3 has quit ("Leaving.") | Jul 11 05:14 | |
| oiaohm | If that was just obeyed how much simpler do you think contracts would be fewa | Jul 11 05:14 |
| fewa | but also, contracts that the person who signs it could not be expected to undestand should not be valid | Jul 11 05:15 |
| oiaohm | Contract law puts it on the signing person. | Jul 11 05:15 |
| fewa | oiaohm, not fully | Jul 11 05:15 |
| oiaohm | To turn down what they don't understand mostly. | Jul 11 05:15 |
| oiaohm | Unless they are too dumb not to know they don't understand it. | Jul 11 05:16 |
| fewa | oiaohm, most dont read it | Jul 11 05:16 |
| fewa | oiaohm, a contract is no excuse to be immoral | Jul 11 05:16 |
| fewa | just because its written on paper | Jul 11 05:16 |
| oiaohm | immoral contract would not work if people never agree to it. | Jul 11 05:16 |
| oiaohm | Its called taking responsiblity. | Jul 11 05:17 |
| fewa | oiaohm, and a huge thing is that people dont really agree to these things | Jul 11 05:17 |
| oiaohm | Most people don't want to take responsiablity for there actions. | Jul 11 05:17 |
| oiaohm | That is a huge problem. | Jul 11 05:17 |
| fewa | as people see no room for negotiation, they see no consideration | Jul 11 05:18 |
| oiaohm | Seems to be todays moot no matter how bad I screw up someone else has to be responsable and I should be able to get out of it. | Jul 11 05:18 |
| fewa | and when people dont see consideration they will just do whatever gives them something | Jul 11 05:18 |
| oiaohm | Most people don't even look for room for negotiation. | Jul 11 05:18 |
| oiaohm | Too much in a hurry. | Jul 11 05:19 |
| fewa | still: no consideration | Jul 11 05:19 |
| oiaohm | Fast paced live is part of the problem. | Jul 11 05:19 |
| fewa | but yeah, fast paced is part of it | Jul 11 05:19 |
| fewa | back to the transaction costs problem | Jul 11 05:19 |
| oiaohm | I have done this with a few classes. | Jul 11 05:20 |
| fewa | contracts, and contract law, must be situated to reduce as great as possible transaction costs | Jul 11 05:20 |
| oiaohm | Most have been shocked just a simple execerise of asking could make a big difference. | Jul 11 05:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | twitter: http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2009/07/09/java-development-outpaces-c-development-on-all-platforms/ | Jul 11 05:20 |
| fewa | oiaohm, ive asked company people who couldn't really make differences | Jul 11 05:21 |
| fewa | People dont like to speak up | Jul 11 05:21 |
| oiaohm | Some places are like that. | Jul 11 05:21 |
| fewa | http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/07/apple-proposes-http-streaming-feature-as-a-protocol-standard.ars i dont get it | Jul 11 05:21 |
| oiaohm | Some other companies are more responsive to it. | Jul 11 05:22 |
| fewa | Cant you already just stream a endless file? | Jul 11 05:22 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, OpenTK can be built with mono | Jul 11 05:22 |
| fewa | isnt that already simple with HTTP/1.1 | Jul 11 05:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: not at the time I used it. | Jul 11 05:22 |
| fewa | I know I have done it | Jul 11 05:22 |
| oiaohm | Its also interesting. Most of the companies responsive to alterations in contracts also have better techincal support fewa. | Jul 11 05:22 |
| fewa | oiaohm, but yeah i do read contracts | Jul 11 05:22 |
| fewa | I havnt signed any long term ones though | Jul 11 05:23 |
| fewa | I dont like those | Jul 11 05:23 |
| fewa | If you black-mark out parts and then sign it is that valid? | Jul 11 05:23 |
| fewa | Anyone know about the HTTP streaming? cant you already do this apple thing? | Jul 11 05:24 |
| oiaohm | Depend on country fewa. | Jul 11 05:24 |
| oiaohm | Some require crossed out and intials. | Jul 11 05:25 |
| fewa | oiaohm, of course the other party then has to consider it, can the sales person initial/consider that on behaf of the company? | Jul 11 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Then a mirror signature from the other side to make valid. | Jul 11 05:25 |
| blankthemuffin | I might also note that OpenGL wrappers have nothing to do with .NET itself Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 05:26 |
| oiaohm | Its a built in way in a lot of contracts to basically do a offer. | Jul 11 05:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: no, but it does impeed my usage of it | Jul 11 05:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: I did mention XNA, which is a Microsoft product for .Net. | Jul 11 05:26 |
| blankthemuffin | I know. | Jul 11 05:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | Microsoft clearly does not want me to develop games using C#. | Jul 11 05:27 |
| oiaohm | That kind a fall under understanding the basics of your countries contract law fewa. | Jul 11 05:27 |
| fewa | im in USA | Jul 11 05:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have no interest in something that only works on Windows and the dying XBox platform | Jul 11 05:27 |
| oiaohm | I am not fewa. | Jul 11 05:27 |
| fewa | UK right? | Jul 11 05:27 |
| oiaohm | Australia | Jul 11 05:27 |
| fewa | wait australia | Jul 11 05:27 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, I'm pretty sure they don't care about game development for platforms that are not their own. | Jul 11 05:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: although the US law is very British in design, its different in many areas | Jul 11 05:27 |
| oiaohm | Australian and British are closer. | Jul 11 05:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: I'm pretty sure Microsoft does not care about _any_ development for platforms that are not their own. | Jul 11 05:28 |
| fewa | US law even adopts common law by default | Jul 11 05:28 |
| blankthemuffin | Using their own API is only natural. | Jul 11 05:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have no clue why Microsoft is paying Novell other than to try to make it seem like an alternative to Java. | Jul 11 05:28 |
| fewa | thats all Microsoft has been doing | Jul 11 05:29 |
| fewa | copying everybody else | Jul 11 05:29 |
| fewa | NIH | Jul 11 05:29 |
| oiaohm | The crossing out bit varies a bit from country to country. Some just in initials some need full signature some crossing bits out contract is invalid. | Jul 11 05:30 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, If their programming environment doesn't support other platforms that will greatly impact adoption. If their gaming environment doesn't support other platforms it matters much less. | Jul 11 05:30 |
| oiaohm | You will basically have to check what the usa is fewa | Jul 11 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: in all countries, this is why you have two lawyers in the room | Jul 11 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: not quite. game developers want to make as much money as possible. | Jul 11 05:31 |
| fewa | oiaohm, Lawyers try to be the priests of modern society | Jul 11 05:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: if this means that they loose up to 20% of their revenue because they only support windows, then this is an issue. | Jul 11 05:31 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, but XNA targets independent developers. | Jul 11 05:31 |
| fewa | and in the USA each state can have their own laws | Jul 11 05:31 |
| oiaohm | Contract law does not change state to state in the USA. | Jul 11 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: wrong | Jul 11 05:32 |
| blankthemuffin | People who just want to play, people who most likely have a windows machine and an possibly an Xbox | Jul 11 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | some states do not allow certain things in contracts | Jul 11 05:32 |
| oiaohm | I was mean in the crossing out sections Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | _laws_ change state to state, thus contract law also changes state to state | Jul 11 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, thats consistant usually | Jul 11 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: which does not apply to many people. | Jul 11 05:33 |
| blankthemuffin | I think the amount of people using XNA would conflict with that assumption Diablo-D3 | Jul 11 05:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | people use it because they think direct3D is a valid API for use. | Jul 11 05:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not. | Jul 11 05:34 |
| blankthemuffin | Why not? Because microsoft made it? | Jul 11 05:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | anything that can cost me money as a developer in the future is not worth considering, period. | Jul 11 05:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | why do you think companies have to _pay_ other companies to port their games to other systems? | Jul 11 05:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | because their developers are morons and screwed it up in the first place | Jul 11 05:34 |
| blankthemuffin | I'd say it's crap because it only supports windows and xbox, but the other side of it is that OpenGL has an API from the middle ages. | Jul 11 05:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | a properly written java app comes pre-ported to all the major java platforms that can run the app | Jul 11 05:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: middle ages how? | Jul 11 05:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | opengl supports everything d3d 11 does. | Jul 11 05:35 |
| fewa | the uniform code applies everywhere | Jul 11 05:35 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, but I didn't say features, I said API | Jul 11 05:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: the API is well designed and makes sense | Jul 11 05:35 |
| fewa | UCC | Jul 11 05:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | if that means its "from the middle ages", then I wish all APIs were. | Jul 11 05:36 |
| blankthemuffin | So why do people use DirectX then Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 05:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | Probably because they drank the Microsoft flavor-aid. | Jul 11 05:36 |
| blankthemuffin | yeah right | Jul 11 05:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | Most people do not even ask if there is an alternative | Jul 11 05:37 |
| oiaohm | d3d is not what you call that great. | Jul 11 05:37 |
| oiaohm | Nether is opengl really. | Jul 11 05:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | opengl works great, oiaohm | Jul 11 05:37 |
| oiaohm | Both have had the effect of limiting what features video cards have developed. | Jul 11 05:37 |
| blankthemuffin | oiaohm, Oh I agree, but OpenGL is not doing well. 3.1 is nicer, but 3.0 was such a let down. | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not at all | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: opengl _requires_ video card manufs to innovate | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is why the extension system exists | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | a vendor can cook up a new feature, write a spec, and instantly a new feature is born | Jul 11 05:38 |
| blankthemuffin | I think you mean _allows_ not _requires_ | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | on d3d, nothing is done without microsofts approval, molestation, and ruination. | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: nope, requires | Jul 11 05:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | ARB does not generally create new features. | Jul 11 05:39 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, oh so it's impossible to write a OpenGL implementation without inventing new features? | Jul 11 05:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | they promote vendor extensions, and then eventually promote well used ARB extensions into core | Jul 11 05:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: no, but its impossible to _add_ new features without inventing them first. | Jul 11 05:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft often tries to invent new things in D3D and then no one uses them or supports them | Jul 11 05:40 |
| blankthemuffin | Indeed, but OpenGL doesn't force vendors to invent them. | Jul 11 05:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | opengl is vendor controlled, d3d is microsoft controlled. | Jul 11 05:40 |
| blankthemuffin | as in, if innovation is done, it will be by the vendor, but there is no forcing of them do innovate. | Jul 11 05:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd rather my API be controlled by the people who design the damned hardware than instead by a company who's never made hardware in their lives | Jul 11 05:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: eys | Jul 11 05:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | *yes | Jul 11 05:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | but opengl does not evolve in a vacuum | Jul 11 05:41 |
| blankthemuffin | and believe it or not, DirectX has a standards board too, made up of hardware vendors. | Jul 11 05:41 |
| blankthemuffin | Microsoft don't go: Oh hay vendors we just made up a new feature, implement it. | Jul 11 05:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | so why has D3D changed APIs several times over the years? | Jul 11 05:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | when opengl does it, its done once and its done right. | Jul 11 05:42 |
| fewa | opengl has always been more liked by vendors | Jul 11 05:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | and why does Micrsooft take so long to add a new feature? | Jul 11 05:42 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, because it can. OpenGL's "Stability" is terrible. | Jul 11 05:42 |
| oiaohm | blankthemuffin: MS has gone a few times lets have this feature now hardware makers work out how to support it. | Jul 11 05:42 |
| fewa | and historically by software vendors | Jul 11 05:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | for a recent example, opengl had geometry shaders first | Jul 11 05:43 |
| fewa | microsoft just wants to control the middleware | Jul 11 05:43 |
| blankthemuffin | Of course it did Diablo-D3, it usually gets them first, but that does not mean they were not developed for both concurrently. | Jul 11 05:43 |
| fewa | and thats why they try to force everyone out of writing kernel code | Jul 11 05:43 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the video card makers are looking at saying stuff off to both opengl and d3d. | Jul 11 05:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: [01:01:32] <oiaohm> blankthemuffin: MS has gone a few times lets have this feature now hardware makers work out how to support it. | Jul 11 05:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | what oiaohm says is true | Jul 11 05:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | several times these features have been killed | Jul 11 05:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | or they mutated into something a lot like opengl's | Jul 11 05:45 |
| oiaohm | Instead they produce galium3d drivers and the upper levels of opengl and d3d just will have to work out how to interface. | Jul 11 05:45 |
| blankthemuffin | on the other hand, users have been crying out to OpenGL for an API refresh for years, and its hardly happened. | Jul 11 05:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: it did actually | Jul 11 05:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | opengl 3.0 added the ability to remove old school methods | Jul 11 05:46 |
| oiaohm | Cad refersh was opengl 3.0 | Jul 11 05:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | it also added the ability to ask for a specific version of opengl | Jul 11 05:46 |
| oiaohm | Game developer refersh will come latter. | Jul 11 05:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | 3.1 turns the removal on by default | Jul 11 05:46 |
| blankthemuffin | I know Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 05:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | however, a opengl 3.0 pipeline will work on 2.1 fine. | Jul 11 05:46 |
| blankthemuffin | Yeah, as I said, 3.1 is a step in the right direction, but it's still not the golden bullet OpenGL really needed for the 3 series. | Jul 11 05:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | it only _removes_ things, opengl was already modern. | Jul 11 05:47 |
| blankthemuffin | it only removes things ( actually that's wrong ) even though developers are crying out for new features in the API | Jul 11 05:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | the future compat context in 3.0 and 3.1 removes API calls. | Jul 11 05:48 |
| blankthemuffin | Yes I know what it does | Jul 11 05:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you try to call them, you get a gl error saying not to call them | Jul 11 05:48 |
| fewa | oiaohm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_v._Walker-Thomas_Furniture_Co. | Jul 11 05:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | also, like I said, its not up to Khronos (the new ARB) to add new features | Jul 11 05:49 |
| blankthemuffin | 3.1 also adds texture buffer objects, signed normalised textures, Uniform buffer objects, instancing to name a few. | Jul 11 05:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | its up to vendors | Jul 11 05:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: thats 3.1, not 3.0 | Jul 11 05:49 |
| blankthemuffin | indeed | Jul 11 05:49 |
| blankthemuffin | that's why I said 3.1 | Jul 11 05:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | 3.0 only adds VAOs as a major feature, and thats also available as an extension under 2.x | Jul 11 05:49 |
| oiaohm | blankthemuffin: some of the issue is lot those new features need a new driver design. | Jul 11 05:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | (VAOs just put multiple VBOs under the same handle, its not that big of a feature) | Jul 11 05:50 |
| blankthemuffin | In the end it comes down to this: there is a reason everybody isn't using OpenGL, and it's not because microsoft are evil. | Jul 11 05:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, its because people are ignorant | Jul 11 05:50 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 05:51 | |
| Diablo-D3 | most programmers my age have been brought up in the age of microsoft | Jul 11 05:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | they've only ever used a windows box | Jul 11 05:51 |
| blankthemuffin | how old are you? | Jul 11 05:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | they think macs are for artists and rich people | Jul 11 05:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | 26. | Jul 11 05:51 |
| oiaohm | Once gailuim3d drivers start to become more common opengl and d3d may reduce in importants. | Jul 11 05:51 |
| oiaohm | As new frameworks are allowed up. | Jul 11 05:51 |
| oiaohm | http://www.khronos.org/openkode/ Also we have copy cats. | Jul 11 05:53 |
| Ugh, that "Lefty" ass wastes RMS's time. http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/07/emailing-richard-stallman.html | Jul 11 05:53 | |
| 197 comments. What a sewer. | Jul 11 05:54 | |
| That's enough of that idiots trolling for me. | Jul 11 05:57 | |
| Diablo-D3 | twitter: see the blog entry yet? | Jul 11 05:58 |
| Let's do a little research. | Jul 11 05:58 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 11 05:59 | |
| One hit: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site:www.limofoundation.org++Schlesinger&aq=f&oq=&aqi= | Jul 11 06:02 | |
| One event with him in it. | Jul 11 06:02 | |
| Says he represents "ACCESS" | Jul 11 06:02 | |
| One 50 minute presentation in Austin Tx. UT Supercomputing Center in Austin, TX | Jul 11 06:03 | |
| from http://www.limofoundation.org/chinese/events/index.php | Jul 11 06:04 | |
| Diablo-D3 | twitter: http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2009/07/09/java-development-outpaces-c-development-on-all-platforms | Jul 11 06:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | twitter: read it yet? | Jul 11 06:04 |
| to http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/collaboration-summit | Jul 11 06:04 | |
| It is difficult to believe that the relentless attack bot we see harassing BN and RMS could do anything useful for anyone. | Jul 11 06:05 | |
| Three hits here all with ACCESS Co. http://events.linuxfoundation.org/component/search/Schlesinger/?ordering=&searchphrase=all | Jul 11 06:12 | |
| Diablo-D3 | twitter: weellll? | Jul 11 06:13 |
| I wonder if he hangs out at these events to do what he did to RMS, misquote, harass and waste time. | Jul 11 06:14 | |
| Geee, which of these companies does Lefty belong to? http://www.google.com/search?q=ACCESS Co., Ltd.&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 | Jul 11 06:15 | |
| Looks like this one. http://www.access-company.com/news/events/index.html | Jul 11 06:16 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Study Shows Patents Make Science and Technology Worse http://ping.fm/jMVxb | Jul 11 06:17 | |
| blankthemuffin | He has a problem with the perpetually correct, impartial, brilliant, wise RMS, destroy him. | Jul 11 06:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | RMS isnt so bad | Jul 11 06:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | hes just misguided sometimes | Jul 11 06:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | like he lets that dot gnu shit live | Jul 11 06:17 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't see how dotgnu is any different from mono | Jul 11 06:18 |
| blankthemuffin | apart from being sucky in comparison | Jul 11 06:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not | Jul 11 06:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | its still shit just like mono, so it deserves to die | Jul 11 06:18 |
| LOL, they use Power Point. | Jul 11 06:18 | |
| http://www.access-company.com/about/investors/ir_shiryo/1stQuarter2007.pdf | Jul 11 06:19 | |
| blankthemuffin | I disagree with lefty, but I have a funny feeling most of the people who disagree with him are only there because they picture RMS as some kind of god. | Jul 11 06:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft (Co)Founder Collaborates with World's Biggest Patent Trolls on Life Blackmail http://ping.fm/D1Cth | Jul 11 06:20 | |
| blankthemuffin | And the whole thing would disappear if RMS had've said: "That's not what I meant, I'm sorry that anyone took it that way" | Jul 11 06:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | rms never does that | Jul 11 06:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | since hes god | Jul 11 06:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | and you should bow down and whatever | Jul 11 06:22 |
| hmmm, not a bad looking company. If the "Lefty" visiting this site really works there, they should be embarrassed. | Jul 11 06:25 | |
| Ah, they were to purchase Palm Source. | Jul 11 06:27 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Drone in India: http://ping.fm/haQ6E | Jul 11 06:29 | |
| I wonder if Access is a GPL violator.... | Jul 11 06:29 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shill Jonathan Zuck Exposed, Denounced, Retreats http://ping.fm/eiDzS | Jul 11 06:30 | |
| Like RMS said, "Open Source, different movement." | Jul 11 06:31 | |
| or, perhaps, someone is impersonating Lefty. They use Windows, so someone could even be using his own computer to troll around. | Jul 11 06:32 | |
| Nasty. | Jul 11 06:32 | |
| He's a security guy, just the sort of person to be targeted by the Operation Havoc people. | Jul 11 06:32 | |
| A quick email to the guy, pointing out the RMS and BN trolling should clear things up. Want to write him, Roy? | Jul 11 06:33 | |
| schestowitz | Who? | Jul 11 06:35 |
| Schlesinger | Jul 11 06:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Programmes Keep Dropping Like (Butter)Flies http://ping.fm/mDpcL | Jul 11 06:36 | |
| He's a real person who worked for http://www.access-company.com | Jul 11 06:36 | |
| blankthemuffin | what are you? the boycott novell attack dog or something twitter? | Jul 11 06:36 |
| It is hard to believe that someone who works for a company like that, non free though it is, could be such a monster troll. | Jul 11 06:36 | |
| I mean really, ragging on RMS for the "Cult of Emacs" gag? Who'd really waste their and RMS's time like that? | Jul 11 06:37 | |
| blankthemuffin | Why are you wasting your time being a dick about it twitter? | Jul 11 06:39 |
| blankthemuffin | Playing internet detective, you truly are the man around here. | Jul 11 06:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh shush blankthemuffin | Jul 11 06:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | no one wants to hear you troll either | Jul 11 06:41 |
| blankthemuffin | You guys seem to think everything is a troll. | Jul 11 06:41 |
| blankthemuffin | Different viewpoint? STOP TROLLING! | Jul 11 06:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Windows Still Kills British Patients http://ping.fm/rSF0b | Jul 11 06:43 | |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, thats immature,,if you disagree with twitter fine state your case that would be the adult approach..if not your just throwing up adhominem junk and it makes you look foolish. | Jul 11 06:47 |
| blankthemuffin | I don't disagree with twitter. I think Lefty is being a bit of a twat. I disagree with twitter's manner, which I made pretty clear. Playing internet detective, looking up this Lefty guy, making out he's some terrible scourge of the earth. | Jul 11 06:50 |
| blankthemuffin | It's like the other day when that itwire douche wrote sensationalist "journalism" when he dissected some guy's blog post over four pages because he dared call stallman a 'fuck'. | Jul 11 06:53 |
| Ah ha. RMS gave the keynote and that's what "Lefty" ragged on. http://www.grancanariadesktopsummit.org/node/180 | Jul 11 06:59 | |
| *Muttley wonders how hurd is coming along ;) | Jul 11 06:59 | |
| ***twitter ignores Muttley troll. | Jul 11 07:01 | |
| here are a few useful trolls and normal reactions to RMS's keynote. Via a QT person http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/07/05/trolls-at-the-desktop-summit/ | Jul 11 07:02 | |
| blankthemuffin | didn't you even read what lefty said before you jumped in with an opinion twitter? | Jul 11 07:05 |
| What really happened at the keynote. People sang the free software song. http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Gran-Canaria-Desktop-Summit-Saints-Gentlemen-and-Schoolchildren | Jul 11 07:08 | |
| blankthemuffin | Were you there? | Jul 11 07:09 |
| Another good write up. http://kdenews.org/2009/07/04/gran-canaria-desktop-summit-opens | Jul 11 07:10 | |
| It is too bad that I have not found a recording of the event. I'd like to test "Lefty's" bullshit out first hand. | Jul 11 07:10 | |
| blankthemuffin | Oh I see, as long as it subscribes to your world view, it's ok. Anything else is blasphemy. | Jul 11 07:11 |
| blankthemuffin | Considering Lefty wasn't the only one complaining about RMS's keynote, lends me to think he wasn't a lone crazy. | Jul 11 07:11 |
| blankthemuffin | isn't* | Jul 11 07:12 |
| One thing is for sure. "Lefty's" hostility is all his own. All of these other descriptions are full of praise, common sense and love of free software. | Jul 11 07:13 | |
| blankthemuffin | No they're not | Jul 11 07:13 |
| schestowitz | Excellent Jeff Hawkins talk: Mozilla Labs has set up the Open Web Tools Directory, a bid to build a comprehensive list of the open-source developer tools available. | Jul 11 07:14 |
| schestowitz | On Monday, the open source browser project issued a call to the programmer community to help with the construction of the new central database. | Jul 11 07:14 |
| schestowitz | "As we've explored different tools we could create here as part of the Developer Tools Lab, we've come to the opinion that in addition to creating new tools, one of the best things we could do is help developers understand the broad universe of tools that already exist and expose some of the fantastic and amazing work that's being done," wrote Ben Galbraith, a member of Mozilla Labs Developer Tools team, in a blog post. | Jul 11 07:14 |
| schestowitz | OOps. Wrong paste. Should be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6CVj5IQkzk&feature=channel | Jul 11 07:15 |
| Ugh, "the first three keynotes were not recorded." Lefty can make up what ever he wants. | Jul 11 07:15 | |
| blankthemuffin | I've seen at least four blog posts on planet gnome which all basically say they were dismayed by RMS's keynote, and couple of them link to Lefty's paste. | Jul 11 07:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: yo | Jul 11 07:15 |
| blankthemuffin | twitter, he can, but considering the number of people who back him up, it's unlikely. | Jul 11 07:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: miguel apparently has "java c#" in his magic internet search filter | Jul 11 07:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2009/07/09/java-development-outpaces-c-development-on-all-platforms/ | Jul 11 07:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | scroll down for miguel comments | Jul 11 07:16 |
| schestowitz | Good for Miguel.. | Jul 11 07:16 |
| schestowitz | brb. I'm doing links | Jul 11 07:16 |
| ding, ding, I think I have it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1Zt_YBGAMk | Jul 11 07:17 | |
| Diablo-D3 | hahaha he got his saint ignucius shit out again? | Jul 11 07:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | so wait, people think this shit is serious? | Jul 11 07:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: btw, are you pro-, anti-, or meh over java? | Jul 11 07:19 |
| *HJayS (i=79d83dbb@gateway/web/freenode/x-168dd7041bca512c) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 07:25 | |
| There were a lot of good youtube videos. | Jul 11 07:32 | |
| but none of the whole thing. | Jul 11 07:32 | |
| I think RMS understood what was going on when he wrote, "I have had very few negative reactions to St IGNUcius in the past; the only one I can remember was from someone who was hostile to begin with" | Jul 11 07:33 | |
| Diablo-D3 | <rms> some people are dicks | Jul 11 07:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | that sums it up | Jul 11 07:34 |
| *schestowitz didn't know Hawkins did the same research as me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oozFn2d45tg | Jul 11 07:34 | |
| schestowitz | I'll do some posts now | Jul 11 07:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: you should link to that blog entry above, since it tries to de-FUD a pro-Novell FUD article | Jul 11 07:37 |
| schestowitz | What do you want from us? | Jul 11 07:38 |
| schestowitz | I know who you are. | Jul 11 07:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | I want Mono dead, Roy. | Jul 11 07:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | So it seems we have similar goals. | Jul 11 07:39 |
| schestowitz | Apple blames plastic for phone discolouration :: "These questions, and many others, have not been answered by the Apple press office. We guess it will stick to this line until a black phone discolours or catches fire." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1433252/apple-blames-plastic-phone-discolouration | Jul 11 07:42 |
| schestowitz | Ooh! Shiny. | Jul 11 07:42 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: you attacked us, verbally. | Jul 11 07:42 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: yes, and in the mean time I've decided c# and mono are horrid pieces of shit | Jul 11 07:43 |
| schestowitz | Google remembers. http://www.google.com/search?q=site:boycottnovell.com+%3CDiablo-D3%3E&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8&hl=en | Jul 11 07:43 |
| blankthemuffin | Make up your mind Diablo-D3. | Jul 11 07:43 |
| blankthemuffin | You're jumping between polar opposites. | Jul 11 07:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: dude, you can just link to my blog | Jul 11 07:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | I haven't changed my mind that you go to extreme measures sometimes, however. | Jul 11 07:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: not really, I used c# for a month, I evaluated it, and I found it to be utter crap. | Jul 11 07:44 |
| blankthemuffin | A month? What did you write in that time? | Jul 11 07:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | half of a 3D engine. | Jul 11 07:45 |
| blankthemuffin | I'd like to see it. | Jul 11 07:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | nope. | Jul 11 07:45 |
| blankthemuffin | All your blog posts seem to either unconditionally praise something, or call people douchebags, or, to quote "You know what, Real Steve Jobs? Up yours.". | Jul 11 07:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | welcome to the internet, enjoy your stay. | Jul 11 07:46 |
| blankthemuffin | Oh so because it's the internet everybody is insanely polar? | Jul 11 07:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, its because you're trolling and no one is taking you seriously. | Jul 11 07:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: at any rate, Miguel being an absolute douche when I approached him about Mono usability issues was the last straw | Jul 11 07:47 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: no offense, I would rather link to chan4 | Jul 11 07:47 |
| schestowitz | 4cfhan | Jul 11 07:47 |
| blankthemuffin | It's funny how people use the trolling argument to avoid actually dealing with the points raised. | Jul 11 07:47 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: link or not, I don't care | Jul 11 07:48 |
| *BNc has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) | Jul 11 07:48 | |
| *ct has quit (lindbohm.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) | Jul 11 07:48 | |
| schestowitz | I have a long post about Mono coming | Jul 11 07:48 |
| schestowitz | Feel free to participate | Jul 11 07:48 |
| schestowitz | Trust needs to be earned | Jul 11 07:48 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: however, its quite obvious that Miguel doesn't care about Mono being usable as long as he gets that money from Microsoft | Jul 11 07:48 |
| schestowitz | You celebrated DDOS attacks on us and cursed us | Jul 11 07:48 |
| schestowitz | You also spread libel (knowingly) about us | Jul 11 07:49 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: miguel cares for miguel | Jul 11 07:49 |
| schestowitz | And by extension those with him (loves ones), i.e. Ximian, Novell and Microsoft | Jul 11 07:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive never spread libel about bn | Jul 11 07:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | You're an extremist. | Jul 11 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Humans are inherently selfish and to believe otherwise is to stretch the expectation of reciprocity for goodwill. Ask neural experts about it | Jul 11 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Animals too better treat those genetically close to them because some time down the road they may reap benefit. Studies in primitive societies confirm this | Jul 11 07:50 |
| *BNc (n=twitfolk@cg131a.halls.manchester.ac.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 07:50 | |
| *ct (n=ct@fsf/member/ct) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | And this is why I probed cj's motives | Jul 11 07:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | I do believe your movement can be taken seriously if you stop attacking MS and Novell and instead try to promote languages that suck less. | Jul 11 07:50 |
| schestowitz | I know who he's with | Jul 11 07:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | So, Roy, what language to you program in? | Jul 11 07:51 |
| blankthemuffin | here are some nice attention whore blog headers by you Diablo-D3: "Jim Cramer: You are a gigantic douchebag" "The Daily Show proves Republicans are idiots" "Slate’s Jacob Weisberg is a douchebag" "Boycott Novell attacks itself to get attention" "RMS gets it wrong (C# and .NET suck no matter whose you use)" "237 House Representatives who hate America" | Jul 11 07:51 |
| schestowitz | And thus whose interests he advances, e.g. for another contract with Microsoft Corp. | Jul 11 07:51 |
| *ct has quit (Success) | Jul 11 07:51 | |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: Look, if your blog isn't popular, thats not my problem. | Jul 11 07:52 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, says the guy trying to leech of others popularity to give himself a sense of worth. | Jul 11 07:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: but thats what _you're_ doing right now | Jul 11 07:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | You love C#, why are you even in here? | Jul 11 07:53 |
| blankthemuffin | because I can see that there are two sides to the mono story, and I'm interested in discussing them. | Jul 11 07:53 |
| blankthemuffin | I'd be the attention whore if I were in #mono asking miguel to link to my blog. | Jul 11 07:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | Then quit attacking people who think Monos a pile of shit independently of there being a "story" | Jul 11 07:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: you didnt answer my question btw, what language do you prefer? | Jul 11 07:54 |
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| blankthemuffin | I'm attacking you because you are not helping either side of the discussion, baseless attacks don't get anybody anywhere. | Jul 11 07:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: except you're trying to attribute something that isnt there | Jul 11 07:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't think there is some Microsoft scheme going on | Jul 11 07:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | Microsoft wants to lock people in, sure, but thats just a standard business tactic | Jul 11 07:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | C#/.Net is simply a bad clone of Java _not_ out of malice and some weird Linux hate fetish, but because Microsoft tends to hire idiots. | Jul 11 07:57 |
| blankthemuffin | I never said you did. I called your attacks baseless. .NET SUCKS LOLOLOL isn't really an argument. In that blog post you're trying to get roy to post you don't make a single point to backup your claims. | Jul 11 07:57 |
| blankthemuffin | not even an invented one | Jul 11 07:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | except I say "see this article I linked to? its full of fud, and heres why" | Jul 11 07:58 |
| blankthemuffin | You're stuck in a world of what's and you're ignoring the why's | Jul 11 07:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: have you even read what I linked to? | Jul 11 07:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | its pretty disgusting | Jul 11 07:58 |
| blankthemuffin | What you've written is pretty disgusting. | Jul 11 07:59 |
| blankthemuffin | Your second quote is taken out of context. | Jul 11 08:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | Even if that were true, at least I wasn't paid for it. | Jul 11 08:00 |
| blankthemuffin | Your first quote is kinda flawed, the best any metric provides is a rough idea. | Jul 11 08:00 |
| blankthemuffin | Yes indeed, I'd want my money back. | Jul 11 08:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | Its really obvious the article I linked to is a paid placement. | Jul 11 08:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | It just wildly attacks java (and then debian farther down for no reason) and tells a few lies | Jul 11 08:02 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: I see you too dislike injustices. You really ought to help us rather than antagonise it. You spend energy targeting the wrong issues. | Jul 11 08:02 |
| blankthemuffin | If you actually read the sd times article you'll see it's rather even handed. Here's a quote from it: "It's also worth noting that many of the high-profile Mono applications are written and maintained by Novell. That's a pretty classic platform strategy—try to get your platform broader distribution (in this case, integrated into the Gnome desktop) by creating compelling applications that require it." | Jul 11 08:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: to be fair, you spend too much energy trying to bring up I was anti-BN when I was using C# | Jul 11 08:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: I use Java now. | Jul 11 08:02 |
| schestowitz | SD Times -- be careful | Jul 11 08:02 |
| schestowitz | That author had Microsoft buy his lunch 2 weeks ago | Jul 11 08:02 |
| schestowitz | He said this to me | Jul 11 08:02 |
| schestowitz | And he then hooked up with DiDio | Jul 11 08:03 |
| schestowitz | They are using him | Jul 11 08:03 |
| blankthemuffin | If you actually read the article they're not saying java is bad, they're saying that it's shooting itself in the foot by not making sure there are up to date packages in distribution repositories. | Jul 11 08:03 |
| schestowitz | Stephen is a "yes man" to Canonical | Jul 11 08:03 |
| schestowitz | There are several of them | Jul 11 08:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | blankthemuffin: except they bring up debian which basically does not allow outside packaging from non-DDs | Jul 11 08:03 |
| schestowitz | Like Asay, Var Guy and other friends with a mancrush on Mark S | Jul 11 08:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats going beyond ignorance | Jul 11 08:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats clear mallice | Jul 11 08:03 |
| blankthemuffin | Diablo-D3, I'm sure there are eclipse people who use debian. | Jul 11 08:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, Im one of them | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | blankthemuffin: they use the yardstick that suits them | Jul 11 08:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | read what I wrote. | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | In my household Linux reigns | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | There. I said it | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | So Linux won over the desktop | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | The whole thing is spin | Jul 11 08:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I've used Debian for a decade as my primary desktop distro of choice | Jul 11 08:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I use Eclipse off Eclipse's site. Big deal. | Jul 11 08:04 |
| blankthemuffin | Isn't that all your articles are schestowitz? | Jul 11 08:04 |
| blankthemuffin | Spin? | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | Querstion/hypothesis: how to make it seem like Mono > Java | Jul 11 08:04 |
| blankthemuffin | Isn't that all any of the articles are? | Jul 11 08:04 |
| schestowitz | Solution in search of a problem | Jul 11 08:05 |
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| blankthemuffin | The facts don't change often, their interpretation is a matter of spin. | Jul 11 08:05 |
| schestowitz | blankthemuffin: no, interprettaion | Jul 11 08:05 |
| schestowitz | With a goal in mind which is spreading freedoms | Jul 11 08:05 |
| schestowitz | Including speech and all | Jul 11 08:05 |
| schestowitz | Not just Free software | Jul 11 08:05 |
| blankthemuffin | schestowitz, intentions have no meaning in the real world, just consequences. | Jul 11 08:05 |
| schestowitz | So barriers to these freedoms need to be exposed for their effect | Jul 11 08:05 |
| schestowitz | Like patents in life-saving drugs | Jul 11 08:06 |
| schestowitz | I won't be covering the positive sides of patents | Jul 11 08:06 |
| schestowitz | Many people do that already | Jul 11 08:06 |
| schestowitz | But write about the harms to raise awareness | Jul 11 08:06 |
| blankthemuffin | Indeed, but it's still spin on the basic facts. | Jul 11 08:07 |
| schestowitz | No. | Jul 11 08:07 |
| schestowitz | Even papers have biases | Jul 11 08:07 |
| schestowitz | It's hidden | Jul 11 08:07 |
| schestowitz | Guardian, Independent... mostly Tory | Jul 11 08:07 |
| blankthemuffin | Everything has a bias. | Jul 11 08:07 |
| blankthemuffin | Which is what I'm saying. | Jul 11 08:07 |
| schestowitz | Forbes -pro-Fraustreet | Jul 11 08:07 |
| schestowitz | I read many MS blogs | Jul 11 08:08 |
| schestowitz | To understand the opposite views, not to necessarily concur. | Jul 11 08:08 |
| schestowitz | I don't heckle them, ever | Jul 11 08:08 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm here to discuss both sides of the story, not to necessarily agree. | Jul 11 08:09 |
| schestowitz | I'm actually in good touch with those people... Mary Jo Foley, Pirillo and others | Jul 11 08:09 |
| schestowitz | They read me too... to help them understand why people dislike Microsoft | Jul 11 08:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: people dislike Microsoft because they write shitty code | Jul 11 08:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats not hard to understand | Jul 11 08:11 |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, if all has bias, arent you just adding your own spin so I dont see how that makes you particularly special to call out roy | Jul 11 08:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | the only thing that keeps Windows from totally falling apart is the few bits of good code here and there | Jul 11 08:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, I'm actually impressed with the NT kernel | Jul 11 08:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | if they'd jettison the windows that runs on top of it, it'd form the base of a great OS | Jul 11 08:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | but that'd probably require using a language designed to help the programmer instead of making his job harder | Jul 11 08:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | c# is not that language | Jul 11 08:13 |
| Omar87 | Hey there. | Jul 11 08:14 |
| Omar87 | There this guy on Twitter that I'd like to let you know of. | Jul 11 08:14 |
| Omar87 | His name is NastyMicrosoft. | Jul 11 08:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: you didnt answer my question. what language do you prefer? I really wanna know | Jul 11 08:15 |
| Omar87 | Keeps Tweeting news about MS vandalizing, sabotaging, bribing... etc. | Jul 11 08:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, someone once said XP has 40 million lines of code in it | Jul 11 08:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats about 39 too many. | Jul 11 08:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | software needs to become less redundant, less complex, and easier to understand to survive | Jul 11 08:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | Windows, imo, is on life support | Jul 11 08:18 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: what's the URL? | Jul 11 08:18 |
| schestowitz | Diablo-D3: There is Windows (product) and Microsoft (people). Different things. | Jul 11 08:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: but you say that without actually reading what I wrote. | Jul 11 08:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | People make products. Windows is not a great product. Therefor this tells me the people of Microsoft are generally not great programmers. | Jul 11 08:20 |
| ***twitter ignored Diablo-D3 a while ago. Nasty little troll. | Jul 11 08:22 | |
| Diablo-D3 | says a guy named twitter. | Jul 11 08:22 |
| ha ha. Basically tweets everything BN publishes. http://twitter.com/NastyMicrosoft/ | Jul 11 08:24 | |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: why isnt there a bn group on identica yet? | Jul 11 08:25 |
| schestowitz | There is one on Twitter | Jul 11 08:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | but not identica | Jul 11 08:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont use twitter | Jul 11 08:25 |
| schestowitz | My aggregator can't do identica | Jul 11 08:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How Long Before NHS Follows LSE’s Footsteps and Dumps Windows? http://ping.fm/RZ9mg | Jul 11 08:26 | |
| You asked for the NastyMicrosoft URL, there it is. | Jul 11 08:26 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: judging by the Digg links it could be that dude from Digg that linked to Microsoft-hostile stuff | Jul 11 08:26 |
| It is what it is. | Jul 11 08:27 | |
| schestowitz | http://digg.com/microsoft/What_is_Microsoft_Doing_Inside_the_Press | Jul 11 08:27 |
| schestowitz | Probably nymshifted | Jul 11 08:27 |
| schestowitz | I don't know the person. | Jul 11 08:27 |
| looks like a fan | Jul 11 08:28 | |
| schestowitz | If it's who I think it is, he makes for polarisation by making BN seem ugly and nasty | Jul 11 08:28 |
| schestowitz | That's why many people don't understand the site | Jul 11 08:28 |
| schestowitz | They see angry people linking to it | Jul 11 08:28 |
| schestowitz | But I can't quite complain because they think they help | Jul 11 08:29 |
| schestowitz | It's the same with that "Fink" guy | Jul 11 08:29 |
| ah, there seems to be a lot of that going around. They try to discredit. | Jul 11 08:29 | |
| schestowitz | Someimes I link to Groklaw and use stronger words than Groklaw's | Jul 11 08:29 |
| schestowitz | So in a way I can be accused of making Groklaw seem more aggressive | Jul 11 08:29 |
| Well, there's plenty of malicious behavior too. Ett, Lefty and all that. It's deliberate. | Jul 11 08:29 | |
| They try to stink the place up. | Jul 11 08:30 | |
| schestowitz | I had to apologise to people who were insulted by folks who linked to BN | Jul 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | As though I'm responsible for those who cite us | Jul 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | I can't recall the guy's name | Jul 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | Some Italian guy with a SUSE blog | Jul 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | Someone bothered him a lot | Jul 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | And he thought BN was behind it | Jul 11 08:30 |
| Ah. | Jul 11 08:30 | |
| schestowitz | Eventually we became like friends | Jul 11 08:31 |
| schestowitz | Because he realised I'm not there to troll SUSE blogs at all. | Jul 11 08:31 |
| schestowitz | Some people take it too far | Jul 11 08:31 |
| Yes, acting obnoxious in someone else's name is a common tactic. | Jul 11 08:31 | |
| What you are here to do is apparent from your page. | Jul 11 08:31 | |
| fewa | schestowitz, yep, some people dont understand the concept of individuals | Jul 11 08:31 |
| schestowitz | Or companies | Jul 11 08:32 |
| You do a lot of good research and analysis. | Jul 11 08:32 | |
| schestowitz | Admittedly everyone does this. Like, if someone from MS says something you make it a Microsoft statement | Jul 11 08:32 |
| M$, Novell and others want to shut you up. | Jul 11 08:32 | |
| schestowitz | This is why companies are so afraid of what their employees say online | Jul 11 08:32 |
| schestowitz | Companies ARE employees | Jul 11 08:32 |
| schestowitz | But they HIRE them | Jul 11 08:32 |
| schestowitz | BN doesn't 'hire' people to stand for it | Jul 11 08:33 |
| fewa | schestowitz, do you know if the NHS has any opinion on the public health care option modeled on medicare? | Jul 11 08:33 |
| schestowitz | That's like me pretending to spreak on behalf of Ubuntu | Jul 11 08:33 |
| schestowitz | I can't | Jul 11 08:33 |
| M$ hires people to lie, harass and intimidate. | Jul 11 08:33 | |
| fewa | twitter, or even pretend to be linux fanbois :P | Jul 11 08:33 |
| They pretend to be a lot of people and to represent a lot of interests when it suits them. | Jul 11 08:34 | |
| M$ has to shut up their own employees because the lies M$ perpetuates are all complex and fragile. | Jul 11 08:34 | |
| schestowitz | fewa: follow the NHS links in BN | Jul 11 08:35 |
| Like the guy they canned for taking a picture of Apples on the M$ loading dock. That totally blew away years of careful lies about M$'s own publishing software. | Jul 11 08:35 | |
| schestowitz | I have loads on links on it | Jul 11 08:35 |
| schestowitz | Including incidents where surgeries get suspended due to Windows crashes | Jul 11 08:36 |
| schestowitz | And budget overruns | Jul 11 08:36 |
| Ah, I should look at that. | Jul 11 08:36 | |
| but it is late, good night. | Jul 11 08:37 | |
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| Omar87 | schestowitz: http://twitter.com/NastyMicrosoft | Jul 11 08:41 |
| fewa | schestowitz, well this is a differnt issue | Jul 11 08:42 |
| fewa | ahhh, national health service | Jul 11 08:43 |
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| Omar871 | schestowitz: MSN Messenger died? | Jul 11 08:46 |
| Omar871 | schestowitz: Really? | Jul 11 08:46 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, mohammad | Jul 11 08:55 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: I'd rather not pay attention to that | Jul 11 08:55 |
| schestowitz | I learned my lessons | Jul 11 08:55 |
| schestowitz | People also advised me not to answer all E-mails from strangers | Jul 11 08:56 |
| schestowitz | There are traps | Jul 11 08:56 |
| schestowitz | I have a lot left to learn, if not from experience, then from those who have some. Like filtering out trolls out of visibility (I don't read troll comments in BN) and never to apologise. But PJ still advocates censorship; others don't. | Jul 11 08:57 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Norway Embraces Open Standards, Many Others Follow Suit http://ping.fm/5QtZW | Jul 11 09:17 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shares Destiny with Partners That Promote Its Agenda http://ping.fm/y9SYU | Jul 11 09:57 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Struggle to Find Leaders for Vista 7? http://ping.fm/yjf4o | Jul 11 10:45 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Lobbyist Jonathan Zuck Gets Exposed and Quickly Retreats http://ping.fm/c2ucS | Jul 11 11:30 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] not going to midsummer night's dream readthrough today after all - freda is unwell. poo! poor pickle :-* | Jul 11 11:34 | |
| fewa | http://www.newmediacampaigns.com/page/browser-rest-http-accept-headers | Jul 11 11:38 |
| fewa | 15 | Jul 11 11:38 |
| fewa | Unacceptable Browser HTTP Accept Headers (Yes, You Safari and Internet Explorer) | Jul 11 11:38 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @mandybarnettcom "World-Class Vocalist" and #spam mer. | Jul 11 11:40 | |
| fewa | no suprise here: IE/Microsoft would rather you use proprietary formats over HTML | Jul 11 11:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] well gosh, that was my 2000th twitter post. champagne, etc. | Jul 11 11:41 | |
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| _Goblin | hello all | Jul 11 12:22 |
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| trmanco | http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Changelog | Jul 11 12:25 |
| trmanco | 3.0.2 | Jul 11 12:25 |
| trmanco | hello _Goblin | Jul 11 12:25 |
| *_Goblin has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 11 12:30 | |
| trmanco | .EMACS: Up 177d 14h 26m 10s (Wed 2009-01-14 11:26:19), 19 buffers, 0 files | Jul 11 12:34 |
| trmanco | .EMACS: Up 327d 5h 26m 7s (Sun 2008-08-17 21:28:30), 37 buffers, 13 files | Jul 11 12:34 |
| schestowitz | Hey _goblin | Jul 11 12:44 |
| schestowitz | he left | Jul 11 12:44 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] I'm offline for a couple of days. One of my sisters in law deseased this morning. Will stay with my brother for the next days and nights. | Jul 11 13:01 | |
| _Goblin | sorry to hear that | Jul 11 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Yeah. Sad news. | Jul 11 13:17 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mono Roundup: Still Dangerous, Still Not Acceptable < http://ping.fm/RJnFJ > | Jul 11 13:19 | |
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| Omar871 | schestowitz: It's really ludicrous how M$ trolls are trying to convince us that a convicted monopolist that broke all the laws and standards in the past would suddenly morph into an innocent angel, isn't it? | Jul 11 13:39 |
| schestowitz | Exactly | Jul 11 13:40 |
| schestowitz | But BN does Comes exhibits now :-) We can remind them of history | Jul 11 13:40 |
| Omar871 | I mean really, what are we? Fools? :S | Jul 11 13:40 |
| Omar871 | :D | Jul 11 13:40 |
| Omar871 | ;) | Jul 11 13:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It’s Official: Bilski Kills Software Patent < http://ping.fm/rzFkw > | Jul 11 13:41 | |
| schestowitz | Omar871: no, forgetful. | Jul 11 13:45 |
| schestowitz | In politics too leaders rely on short memory spans | Jul 11 13:45 |
| schestowitz | So that people re-elect crooked politicians and forget terrorism/war crimes/etc. | Jul 11 13:46 |
| schestowitz | In Microsoft's case it's forgetting crimes and patterns of behaviour that recur | Jul 11 13:46 |
| schestowitz | People are forgiving by their nature. It's temper-related. So Microsoft works in cycles. | Jul 11 13:46 |
| Omar871 | schestowitz: The problem is that even our short memory spans are full of evidence that this is a lie. | Jul 11 13:46 |
| Omar871 | schestowitz: The TomTom case is still less than a year old. | Jul 11 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Yes, OOXML just over a year | Jul 11 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Massive corruption that was... | Jul 11 13:47 |
| Omar871 | schestowitz: The OOXML story is less than two years old. | Jul 11 13:47 |
| Omar871 | Exactly. :) | Jul 11 13:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Wolvix-2.0.0beta2 - Review on Openbytes! http://bit.ly/1ie75q #wolvix #linux #foss #slackware | Jul 11 13:48 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Wants to ‘Save’ the World, Using Restrictive Monopolies http://ping.fm/3dsXK | Jul 11 14:15 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft trolls strike again: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/11/in-re-bilski-vs-software-patent/comment-page-1/#comment-69286 | Jul 11 14:17 |
| schestowitz | zoobab01: This means MS is afraid of In Re Bilski. Need more material on that. :-D | Jul 11 14:17 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why the United Patent Litigation System Could Bring Software Patents to Europe http://ping.fm/A78Ds | Jul 11 14:36 | |
| ugufjhfj | schestowitz welcome back! | Jul 11 14:36 |
| schestowitz | Thanks. | Jul 11 14:45 |
| ugufjhfj | what you think about recent news from microsoft about mono? | Jul 11 14:48 |
| schestowitz | I wrote about it hours ago | Jul 11 14:48 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It’s Official: Patents Stifle Innovation http://ping.fm/sgPhL | Jul 11 14:49 | |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/11/mono-roundup-still-ugly/ | Jul 11 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Or this in short: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/08/mono-is-not-safe-gotcha/ | Jul 11 14:49 |
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| _Hicham_ | no one in here? | Jul 11 15:37 |
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| schestowitz | I'm still here.. doing posts | Jul 11 15:43 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shill Warning: Eric Savitz/Barron’s http://ping.fm/SmoxO | Jul 11 15:44 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] listening to Uh-Oh by Trey Owens - http://bit.ly/rOE2b | Jul 11 15:51 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Groklaw Unearths Another SCO Scandal; SCO Heads Sued for Theft, Computer Fraud and Abuse http://ping.fm/COvJ6 | Jul 11 16:15 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Microsoft intervention inside Twitter (they already have people/twit trackers to avert criticism): http://ping.fm/tK77m | Jul 11 16:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[fsmag] RT: @fsmag: always wanted to know how to theme #KDE Mahjongg. Now I do! http://fsmsh.com/3175 - with space pics too. Thanks #Terry Hancock | Jul 11 16:21 | |
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| schestowitz | Apple fanboy is back: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/07/08/apple-launches-http-live-streaming-standard-in-iphone-3-0/ | Jul 11 16:23 |
| schestowitz | Why do people promote Apple like that. Doesn't Apple already have PR people on the payroll? | Jul 11 16:23 |
| schestowitz | See this baffling blind defense of Apple being pricks re Web stds: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/07/06/ogg-theora-h-264-and-the-html-5-browser-squabble/ | Jul 11 16:24 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: "It being reported that ISP BT is no longer considering Phorm at the present time. It is being reported that Phorm shares were down 46.13% on Monday afternoon." http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/07/07/bt-not-deploying-phorm/ | Jul 11 16:24 |
| ThistleWeb | schestowitz: yeah I read that, TalkTalk also dropped them like the follwoing day | Jul 11 16:25 |
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| ThistleWeb | the BT thing wasn't because of privacy concerns, or negative reactions though, they still like the idea | Jul 11 16:26 |
| ThistleWeb | so the (apparently) 2 largest broadband ISPs in the UK drop them within days of each other, Virgin are still hesitant | Jul 11 16:27 |
| ThistleWeb | not a good week for Phorm shareholders | Jul 11 16:27 |
| ThistleWeb | I wonder if those ISPs got enough complaints from subscribers saying "when my contract ends I will move to another ISP who wont deal with Phorm" | Jul 11 16:28 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/a-visit-from-mr-hussain/ | Jul 11 16:28 |
| schestowitz | thenixedreport: yes, petokraus is on Virgin | Jul 11 16:29 |
| schestowitz | he's blocked from sites that blacklisted Virgin | Jul 11 16:29 |
| schestowitz | At least BT is off the hook | Jul 11 16:29 |
| schestowitz | BT pretends it has nothing to do with backlash | Jul 11 16:29 |
| ThistleWeb | enough complaints like that, with those who could move, doing so, can make the bosses have a serious rethink as to whether phorm are worth it | Jul 11 16:29 |
| schestowitz | thenixedreport: the dephormed project helped blocking phorm victims | Jul 11 16:30 |
| ThistleWeb | of course they will claim whatever lets them save face | Jul 11 16:30 |
| schestowitz | This led to more complaints to ISPs | Jul 11 16:30 |
| schestowitz | They got flooded | Jul 11 16:30 |
| schestowitz | I gave Phorm horrendous publicity too (with like 100 public posts). They deserved every one of these. | Jul 11 16:30 |
| schestowitz | If we sit back and let our packets and pages be harvested to be sold for cash, then it will be norm, thus not reversible | Jul 11 16:31 |
| schestowitz | ><ThistleWeb> of course they will claim whatever lets them save fa | Jul 11 16:31 |
| schestowitz | Yes, many customers never knew about it | Jul 11 16:31 |
| schestowitz | So they don't want attention drawn to the facts | Jul 11 16:31 |
| schestowitz | Scenario (hypohtetical) | Jul 11 16:31 |
| ThistleWeb | BT still like the idea phorm had, just not all the attention it was getting | Jul 11 16:32 |
| schestowitz | BT to lady: "we took down that massive antenna on top of your house to reduce radiation exposure" | Jul 11 16:32 |
| ThistleWeb | so I reckon it's dropped "for now" until the heat cools | Jul 11 16:32 |
| schestowitz | Lady: "the wha?? I had an antenna?????" | Jul 11 16:32 |
| schestowitz | thenixedreport: so kinda like sw pats and 3-strikes | Jul 11 16:32 |
| schestowitz | Let the pinnacle hit first | Jul 11 16:33 |
| ThistleWeb | it'll be picked up again with another name, and "how we got caught" well studied, and learned | Jul 11 16:33 |
| schestowitz | Then it died off (catharsis) | Jul 11 16:33 |
| schestowitz | Break into a house with a knife... | Jul 11 16:33 |
| schestowitz | Come the following day with with a bazooka. | Jul 11 16:33 |
| schestowitz | They already renamed, no? | Jul 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | Something with "Sense" | Jul 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | Or "stimulus" | Jul 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | bailout pig with lipstick | Jul 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | It didn't take in Oct 2008 | Jul 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | So they waited till people become complacement | Jul 11 16:34 |
| schestowitz | Maybe hired some PR firms for "perception management" | Jul 11 16:35 |
| ThistleWeb | every company knows that some decisions are unpopular but rely on complacency that most customers either wont notice, or wont care enough to leave assuming it's the same everywhere else, or too much hassle | Jul 11 16:35 |
| ThistleWeb | they expect a small number to carry out the threat to leave | Jul 11 16:36 |
| ThistleWeb | but they are usually replaced by new peeps who have no clue about the decision | Jul 11 16:36 |
| ThistleWeb | so it all evens out | Jul 11 16:36 |
| ThistleWeb | with the added profits from the unpopular decision | Jul 11 16:36 |
| ThistleWeb | methinks Phorm didn't quite work as planned | Jul 11 16:37 |
| ThistleWeb | all the usual excuses come out "the vast majority of our customers are happy" | Jul 11 16:37 |
| ThistleWeb | "it's a vocal minority trying to ruin things" | Jul 11 16:37 |
| ThistleWeb | these statements could come out of a template | Jul 11 16:40 |
| schestowitz | The vast majority is not happy | Jul 11 16:41 |
| schestowitz | It just does not understand | Jul 11 16:41 |
| schestowitz | Likewise, many people who curse at Windows don't know they have choices | Jul 11 16:42 |
| ThistleWeb | the BBC show Watchdog has a whole compendium of different peeps using those words in releation to their stories | Jul 11 16:42 |
| ThistleWeb | that'd be funny, to have a whole 30min clip with back to back excuses, with all the same excuses used over and over and over | Jul 11 16:43 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@41.249.54.197) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 16:44 | |
| ThistleWeb | there's one excuse I've heard which does sound plausable in some cases, "we've grown too fast, and didn't expect the demand" | Jul 11 16:44 |
| Here's a good example of why Zoos are not a replacement for healthy environments http://www.thebostonchannel.com/money/20021259/detail.html | Jul 11 16:44 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : new IM application http://code.google.com/p/galaxium/ | Jul 11 16:44 |
| *wallclimber (n=ozma@ip68-230-37-218.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 16:44 | |
| wallclimber | Hi Roy | Jul 11 16:45 |
| wallclimber | are you here? | Jul 11 16:45 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Jul 11 16:46 |
| schestowitz | I just got the exhibit :-) | Jul 11 16:46 |
| _Hicham_ | mono is having an im client | Jul 11 16:46 |
| _Hicham_ | great | Jul 11 16:46 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: is this the complate exhibit? | Jul 11 16:47 |
| schestowitz | You wrote: "Back with more in a bit..." | Jul 11 16:47 |
| schestowitz | I got ""Comparing Windows XP and Office XP to Linux and StarOffice" - with the attachments as plain text" | Jul 11 16:47 |
| wallclimber | yes, that's complete | Jul 11 16:47 |
| schestowitz | This one is valuable for the record on Linux exhibits. Then I'll need to dig up more | Jul 11 16:47 |
| schestowitz | We're almost completing the thing :-) | Jul 11 16:48 |
| wallclimber | but i just sent you another email | Jul 11 16:48 |
| schestowitz | A lot of the exhibits are more or less banal | Jul 11 16:48 |
| schestowitz | But the signal was separated from the noise | Jul 11 16:48 |
| *desu has quit ("Leaving") | Jul 11 16:48 | |
| wallclimber | the next one is going to present a challenge | Jul 11 16:48 |
| schestowitz | twitter: human species comes before all. I mean, hey. We're like almost extinct at 6.x billion | Jul 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: seen the SCO news yet? | Jul 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/11/another-sco-scandal-unxis/comment-page-1/#comment-69295 | Jul 11 16:49 |
| wallclimber | yes, i saw it :) | Jul 11 16:49 |
| schestowitz | I think SCO will die when Microsoft dies | Jul 11 16:50 |
| schestowitz | So Groklaw ain't goin' nowhere | Jul 11 16:50 |
| schestowitz | It's like trying to backrupt a kid when his poppa keeps sending cheques | Jul 11 16:50 |
| wallclimber | did you get my last email about px07378? | Jul 11 16:51 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Mono IM... ha! How much? 128MB of RAM? | Jul 11 16:51 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : didn't test it yet | Jul 11 16:51 |
| _Hicham_ | do u want me to package it? | Jul 11 16:51 |
| *schestowitz checks | Jul 11 16:51 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : http://code.google.com/p/galaxium/ | Jul 11 16:52 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, send standard output to directory /dev/nul | Jul 11 16:52 |
| schestowitz | *ll | Jul 11 16:52 |
| _Hicham_ | the galaxium project have been started in 2003 | Jul 11 16:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[fsmag] Always loved Google Chrome browser. Now it will become a full OS: http://fsmsh.com/3176. | Jul 11 16:53 | |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: I have: | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | "FY 03 IMPERATIVES | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | * win Against Linux .. | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | * Winning against Linux: government, education, enterprise, embedded | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | * SRPJF: OEMs hiding our innovations; Work to deliver, & comply | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | * Emerging markets plan - Linux, other OSs, and piracy: ideas welcome | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | * Piracy: How to make progress (and yet balance with Linux) " | Jul 11 16:53 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: I'll do PNGs of the graphics and post the text in between. | Jul 11 16:54 |
| schestowitz | Like I did for EDGI exhibits | Jul 11 16:54 |
| wallclimber | but many of the graphics are unreadable, would you like clean versions? | Jul 11 16:55 |
| wallclimber | some of those graphs won't work as plain text | Jul 11 16:57 |
| _Hicham_ | mono is very widespread | Jul 11 16:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] computer running like slug because of gmail. switched to basic HTML view and all is suddenly well. ff 3.0 and 3.5. anyone else seen this? | Jul 11 16:59 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Galaxium just been added to http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Mono_Applications | Jul 11 16:59 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: that's the best we can achieve | Jul 11 17:00 |
| schestowitz | Raw material | Jul 11 17:00 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: /s/mono/ubuntu/ | Jul 11 17:00 |
| wallclimber | I could do clean renderings of the ugly graphs... | Jul 11 17:01 |
| wallclimber | duplicate them exactly | Jul 11 17:01 |
| wallclimber | ? | Jul 11 17:01 |
| wallclimber | would that be helpful? | Jul 11 17:01 |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 11 17:02 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : mono is going to enter kde soon | Jul 11 17:03 |
| wallclimber | mono as default in kde? | Jul 11 17:04 |
| blankthemuffin | It's the domino effect, communism, I mean, mono, is going to spread through the asia pacific, I mean linux ecosystem and destroy democracy, oops I mean linux. | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: any link? | Jul 11 17:05 |
| blankthemuffin | time to go to war in vietnam, I mean boycott novell | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: maybe contrast modifications | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Like in the GIMP.. | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: not probable | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | KDE listens to RMS | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | And SFLC | Jul 11 17:05 |
| schestowitz | They didn't even touch OOXML because of the SFLC | Jul 11 17:06 |
| wallclimber | heh, nobody should touch OOXML | Jul 11 17:06 |
| schestowitz | blankthemuffin: yeah, you mono-loving lurkers are really in this channel to help *sigh* | Jul 11 17:06 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: someone mailed me a docx yesterday | Jul 11 17:07 |
| schestowitz | First time ever | Jul 11 17:07 |
| schestowitz | But there was a PDF too | Jul 11 17:07 |
| blankthemuffin | I just thought it an interesting analogy. | Jul 11 17:07 |
| wallclimber | ok, i'm off to work on the pdf - have fun with the trolls (I know, they are not fun at all) | Jul 11 17:07 |
| schestowitz | People should resist this, maybe linking to a fact sheet about OOXML being part of a crime and a fraud | Jul 11 17:07 |
| schestowitz | But it's built into MSO07 | Jul 11 17:07 |
| schestowitz | Which essnetially means one can buy fraud on a shelf ;-) | Jul 11 17:07 |
| Poison Pen collection is updated. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/206959 | Jul 11 17:08 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft could get away with letters from dead people, so... | Jul 11 17:08 |
| schestowitz | twitter: Savitz? | Jul 11 17:08 |
| yes | Jul 11 17:08 | |
| schestowitz | Long overdue | Jul 11 17:08 |
| Nice write up. | Jul 11 17:08 | |
| schestowitz | He's in financial press | Jul 11 17:08 |
| schestowitz | Not technology pres | Jul 11 17:08 |
| schestowitz | he boosts MSFT | Jul 11 17:08 |
| schestowitz | Brian C from Forbes does the same thing | Jul 11 17:08 |
| Yes, just the kind of people who belong in my Poison Pen collection. | Jul 11 17:08 | |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090630173237]") | Jul 11 17:09 | |
| Mossberg in the Wall Street Journal. | Jul 11 17:09 | |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: thanks! | Jul 11 17:09 |
| They have all guided people into the M$ camp. | Jul 11 17:09 | |
| schestowitz | It's a great service by all means and being so old means it's immortal evidence. | Jul 11 17:09 |
| wallclimber | you're welcome :) bye! | Jul 11 17:09 |
| *wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 11 17:10 | |
| schestowitz | There's another new one | Jul 11 17:10 |
| schestowitz | Eaton | Jul 11 17:10 |
| schestowitz | From the fan blog of MS at Seattle P-I | Jul 11 17:10 |
| schestowitz | He's new to it all based on a Google search | Jul 11 17:10 |
| schestowitz | His job is to laud MS | Jul 11 17:10 |
| blankthemuffin | I think you guys need to figure out if your aim is to show problems with Mono, and help obtain solutions, or destroy microsoft and everything related to it. | Jul 11 17:10 |
| schestowitz | Saturate the news/press with Mcirosoft praise | Jul 11 17:10 |
| They need new people. The old ones are worn out. | Jul 11 17:10 | |
| *_Hicham_ (n=_Hicham_@41.249.54.197) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 17:10 | |
| Can you imagine how sore people are who bought into M$FT in 2006? | Jul 11 17:11 | |
| schestowitz | Byfield at it again: | Jul 11 17:11 |
| schestowitz | http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3828691_1/Open-Source-Landmark-Mono-Freed-at-Last.htm | Jul 11 17:11 |
| schestowitz | He asked for my comment | Jul 11 17:11 |
| schestowitz | Didn't publish it though | Jul 11 17:11 |
| schestowitz | Maybe it was too unsupportive of his thesis | Jul 11 17:11 |
| Byfield is like that. He deleted all of my comments from his blogs. | Jul 11 17:11 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: yes, I'll show you something | Jul 11 17:11 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft scammed many moms and pops into giving them money | Jul 11 17:12 |
| *blankthemuffin (n=nnjosh@sliceofmuffin.com) has left #boycottnovell ("oh god the hypocrisy is unbearable.") | Jul 11 17:12 | |
| mono a "landmark"? | Jul 11 17:13 | |
| Would he say that Java is a free software landmark? | Jul 11 17:13 | |
| itmanagement seems to be one of those websites that blows out all of Lenny's browsers. | Jul 11 17:14 | |
| Did you look into that issue I saw last week? | Jul 11 17:14 | |
| schestowitz | I've been trying to find (in vain) an old discussion: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=site%3Aboycottnovell.com+site%3Aboycottnovell.com+jose++foundry&aq=f&oq=&aqi= | Jul 11 17:15 |
| schestowitz | Jose wrote in 2008 about the Gates Foundation and Microsoft -- how they scam people to put their money in, which Microsoft will later steal | Jul 11 17:16 |
| schestowitz | With more time I could find it | Jul 11 17:16 |
| I'll dig it up. | Jul 11 17:16 | |
| schestowitz | He spoke about "B&M Foundary" | Jul 11 17:16 |
| schestowitz | Wait. I can find it | Jul 11 17:16 |
| schestowitz | B&M Foundry | Jul 11 17:17 |
| it management spins for 100 seconds on netsurf. contacted but 0 bytes received. | Jul 11 17:17 | |
| the ugly javascript eats up 65% of my CPU | Jul 11 17:17 | |
| a lot of big publisher sites and blogs associated with edge.sphere.com have done something that does this to all the free software browsers in Lenny. | Jul 11 17:18 | |
| schestowitz | Found it | Jul 11 17:19 |
| schestowitz | It starts here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/31/irc-log-30082008/#tAug%2030%2000:20:06 | Jul 11 17:19 |
| Same result happened with FF on Solaris out of state, so I know it's not just me and my setup. | Jul 11 17:19 | |
| schestowitz | In Korea, only old people use JavaScript while browsing (Slashdot humour) | Jul 11 17:20 |
| Yep, same result as before. After 180 seconds, Byfield's silly article finally loaded on Netsurf. | Jul 11 17:20 | |
| I gave up trying to open it with Konq. | Jul 11 17:20 | |
| I know the same thing happens with Iceweasel and Ephiphany. | Jul 11 17:20 | |
| Opps, I spoke to soon. Netsurf errored out. | Jul 11 17:21 | |
| _Hicham_ | javascript is inevitable | Jul 11 17:21 |
| _Hicham_ | everything runs with javascript | Jul 11 17:21 |
| less than 1 byte over 187 seconds. 3/3 stylesheets, zero objects. | Jul 11 17:22 | |
| I think it's some kind of IE only garbage they have all slipped in because IE6 at work loads them. | Jul 11 17:22 | |
| fewa | schestowitz, i dont get it | Jul 11 17:22 |
| So, I'm unable to look at Byfiled's latest bullshit. | Jul 11 17:23 | |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("So long and thanks for all the IRC - telepathy-idle IRC Connection Manager for Telepathy - http://telepathy.freedesktop.org") | Jul 11 17:24 | |
| I suppose his affiliations are clear enough because he uses the M$ style "filename.htm" instead of the normal "filename.html" or simply "filename" | Jul 11 17:26 | |
| fewa | lol INDEX.HTM | Jul 11 17:29 |
| fewa | and its actually FILENM~.HTM | Jul 11 17:29 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=chatzill@41.249.54.197) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 17:30 | |
| schestowitz | Heh. | Jul 11 17:31 |
| fewa | HTTP://COBOLONCOGS.ORG/INDEX.HTM | Jul 11 17:32 |
| very interesting IRC log there, Roy. I remember it, but looking back at it again is refreshing. No wonder the trolls crowd IRC today. | Jul 11 17:36 | |
| schestowitz | Sys-con is spamming Google News, still | Jul 11 17:39 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz, do u know Diablo-D3? | Jul 11 17:39 |
| schestowitz | It's a troll | Jul 11 17:39 |
| *pk has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jul 11 17:39 | |
| schestowitz | anti-BN troll, pro extremists | Jul 11 17:39 |
| schestowitz | I trest him like I treat NRA enthusiasts | Jul 11 17:40 |
| fewa | seems kinda like Daemon-** | Jul 11 17:40 |
| fewa | but not same person | Jul 11 17:40 |
| schestowitz | Damn. I replied to Paul a day too late. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135322/Microsoft_extends_open_access_to_C_CLI?taxonomyId=88 | Jul 11 17:41 |
| schestowitz | he would have balanced the article with remarks from BN, but I was away | Jul 11 17:41 |
| schestowitz | fewa: no, not him. Daemon** is innocent in comparison | Jul 11 17:41 |
| fewa | well i just came back | Jul 11 17:41 |
| fewa | i was on vacatio | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | * daemonfc :No such nick/channel | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | * daemonxp :No such nick/channel | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | * DaemonFC :No such nick/channel | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | * DaemonXP :No such nick/channel | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | He seems to have left IRC for now | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | Got banned for all the channels | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | We were probably the last to tolerate him | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | He trolled other channels | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | Like the Linux FS ones | Jul 11 17:42 |
| schestowitz | extX | Jul 11 17:42 |
| deamonxp probably nyshifted. | Jul 11 17:42 | |
| schestowitz | Could be | Jul 11 17:43 |
| but deamonxp was especially bold in linking to movies of himself. | Jul 11 17:43 | |
| _Hicham_ | or he changed his comcast connection | Jul 11 17:43 |
| his whole set up was elaborate. came on like someone unhappy with non free software support issues and angry at M$ for intimidating him, ended up spamming the world with M$ propaganda and Vista screen shots. | Jul 11 17:44 | |
| hmmmm, I give up. Not even wget can download Bruce Byfield. | Jul 11 17:45 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : what do u want to download ? | Jul 11 17:45 |
| fewa | and mindless idle chatter | Jul 11 17:45 |
| schestowitz | twitter: he was a poster, I think, not a shill | Jul 11 17:45 |
| schestowitz | *poser I mean | Jul 11 17:45 |
| _Hicham_ | he liked to get some attention | Jul 11 17:46 |
| fewa | he said he worked in tech support | Jul 11 17:46 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonXP in tech support ? | Jul 11 17:46 |
| I'm not sure what he was other than a liar. | Jul 11 17:46 | |
| _Hicham_ | hahahahahahahahahahahaha | Jul 11 17:46 |
| schestowitz | He probably provoked the FS channels too | Jul 11 17:46 |
| schestowitz | What better way than to attack the subject? | Jul 11 17:46 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: he's in tech support without the "Tech" | Jul 11 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Ritalin and sofa | Jul 11 17:47 |
| schestowitz | [and cat, duh!] | Jul 11 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Hahahaha: http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/*http://biz.yahoo.com/e/090619/novl8-k.html | Jul 11 17:48 |
| now that is funny -> " Novell, Inc. wishes to clarify that it is continuing to operate the company in the best interest of shareholders and has no current plans to sell the company" | Jul 11 17:49 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft's [ish] Eric Lai plays the FUD card (Linux -> fragmentation): http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135409/Does_Google_Chrome_OS_further_fragment_Linux_landscape_ | Jul 11 17:53 |
| schestowitz | twitter: had Novell cared about shareholders, it would sell | Jul 11 17:54 |
| schestowitz | And sources tell me that already sell parts | Jul 11 17:54 |
| schestowitz | But I can't publish rumours | Jul 11 17:54 |
| schestowitz | I keep them flagged though for future use when it's safe | Jul 11 17:54 |
| fewa | "Six experts close to Linux weigh in", aka stacked cards | Jul 11 17:55 |
| Black is White and White is Black. When there are lots of programs for GNU/Linux it's "fragmentation" and "confusing." When the same is true for M$, it's because Windows rocks. | Jul 11 17:55 | |
| Of course the free software options all get along much better than the non free software options do. | Jul 11 17:56 | |
| fewa | manufacturing pre-opinions | Jul 11 17:57 |
| schestowitz | Further evidence that Pakistan tortured suspects for Britain < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/09/british-torture-terror-suspects > | Jul 11 17:57 |
| schestowitz | fewa: who else to ask though? | Jul 11 17:57 |
| the comparison can't be made directly because gnu/linux always wins. Who cares if you can "chose" between $1000 programs in the Windoze world, when you have a choice of equally functional software you can really own in the gnu/linux world? | Jul 11 17:58 | |
| M$'s marketing effort is very expensive. Anyone who bothers to use free software soon finds out M$ is full of beans. The typical reaction is white hot anger after a few months as the magnitude of the lies becomes obvious. | Jul 11 18:00 | |
| It costs a lot of money to trick people like that. | Jul 11 18:00 | |
| fewa | yep | Jul 11 18:00 |
| I once rough estimated it at a billion dollars a month. | Jul 11 18:01 | |
| fewa | thats why they have to create a prejudice | Jul 11 18:01 |
| fewa | a mythology of lies | Jul 11 18:01 |
| _Hicham_ | "Get the Facts" | Jul 11 18:01 |
| _Hicham_ | "Linux costs a lot compared to Windows" | Jul 11 18:01 |
| They also have to punish OEMs and retailers constantly. | Jul 11 18:01 | |
| I don't think they can keep it up much longer. | Jul 11 18:02 | |
| _Hicham_ | "There is no tech support in Linux" | Jul 11 18:02 |
| _Hicham_ | when did this compaign finish Roy? | Jul 11 18:02 |
| As the economy goes further south in the Western world, the last thing people want is a $400 OS. | Jul 11 18:02 | |
| I wonder how Best Buy is doing. They are one of the last big box stores doing computers on the floor. | Jul 11 18:03 | |
| Walmart and Target scaled back big time. | Jul 11 18:03 | |
| must have been losing lots of money on Vista failure. | Jul 11 18:03 | |
| _Hicham_ | Vista is the sign of MS death | Jul 11 18:05 |
| _Hicham_ | vive SchestowitzOS | Jul 11 18:05 |
| fewa | did M$ still kill Walmark Linux? | Jul 11 18:06 |
| They did in stores and probably did on line. Try a search of walmart.com for "linux" and see what you get. | Jul 11 18:09 | |
| fewa | It ran a via chip | Jul 11 18:09 |
| I tried looking for a netbook last week and it was a huge pain. | Jul 11 18:10 | |
| Outside or RMS config, you are out of luck. | Jul 11 18:10 | |
| macabe_ | Welcome back, Roy. Twitter: In our area people are looking to buy actual PC's for 400 or lower because of the economy. | Jul 11 18:10 |
| fewa | macabe_, you can get decent PCs for that type of money | Jul 11 18:11 |
| CDW had 700 series EEE PCs for $140, cheap enough that I won't be too bothered if I can't get a reasonable distro on it. | Jul 11 18:11 | |
| fewa | chii | Jul 11 18:11 |
| I want the camera to work with Debian. | Jul 11 18:12 | |
| fewa | shii* | Jul 11 18:12 |
| macabe_ | We recommend to them LINPC, Zareason, System76 etc. | Jul 11 18:12 |
| The hardware market is still laced with non free crap. | Jul 11 18:12 | |
| Here's one reason retailers are pushing $400 netbooks, they have been bought out by telco companies. http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2009/07/06/daily36.html | Jul 11 18:13 | |
| fewa | id rather a atom over a celeron | Jul 11 18:13 |
| fewa | still think i will wait for ARM ones | Jul 11 18:13 |
| Waiting for ARM is a good idea. | Jul 11 18:13 | |
| I think RMS recently moved to lemote. | Jul 11 18:13 | |
| MIPS. | Jul 11 18:14 | |
| fewa | idk, my shitty ISP router is MIPS | Jul 11 18:14 |
| macabe_ | Acer had a snapdragon out in the show. MS quickly killed it. | Jul 11 18:14 |
| macabe_ | IMO, MS wants to kill the netbook market. | Jul 11 18:15 |
| Shitty is often a mater of software. My wonderful Debian P3 Thinkpad came with XP. | Jul 11 18:15 | |
| fewa | macabe_, no shit | Jul 11 18:15 |
| fewa | they want to decimate it | Jul 11 18:15 |
| fewa | yeah the router has a bulky ram-wasting web app | Jul 11 18:16 |
| I wonder why HP still uses the Compaq name. | Jul 11 18:16 | |
| fewa | i had to but it in transparent bridge mode cause it sucked too much, dropped connections | Jul 11 18:16 |
| Oh, yeah, I already noted Best Buy's M$ follies and their 15% drop in earnings. | Jul 11 18:22 | |
| schestowitz | Call for limits on web snooping < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/technology/8144713.stm > | Jul 11 18:26 |
| schestowitz | "Governments and companies should limit the snooping they do on web users. | Jul 11 18:26 |
| schestowitz | So said Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the world wide web, who said that growing oversight of browsing could have a pernicious effect. | Jul 11 18:26 |
| schestowitz | A greater part of the value of the web lay in the lack of constraints on what people could do with it. " | Jul 11 18:26 |
| schestowitz | Maybe related to Phorm.. don't know yet... | Jul 11 18:27 |
| schestowitz | He openly complained about Phorm last year (timbl) | Jul 11 18:27 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 18:33 | |
| -> the classic MSFT tactic of a positive headline covering absolutely disparaging content. | Jul 11 18:39 | |
| schestowitz | Vista 7 Family Pack LMAO | Jul 11 18:40 |
| sounds a lot like Byfield. | Jul 11 18:40 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/This_week_in_Windows_7_leaks_Family_Pack_looks_like_real_thing_50501772.html | Jul 11 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft starts to sound like McDonalads | Jul 11 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Can I have the HappyMeal7? | Jul 11 18:40 |
| treat your whole family like a small business | Jul 11 18:40 | |
| or a franchise | Jul 11 18:40 | |
| schestowitz | Or use a real OS | Jul 11 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Not Vista with lip schtick | Jul 11 18:41 |
| schestowitz | TechnFlash gets paid by MS now, mind you | Jul 11 18:41 |
| M$ generosity, charging you for what you once took for granted. ->" letting home users install the operating system on multiple computers for less than the cost of buying copies individually." | Jul 11 18:42 | |
| schestowitz | Bishop is now increasingly assisted by colleagues | Jul 11 18:42 |
| schestowitz | So the whole TechFlash gig becomes like a MS-boosting operation, not Seattle news | Jul 11 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Windows is a joke | Jul 11 18:43 |
| Most people think everyone in their family already owns software they buy from M$, in the same way people own couches, TVs and dinner plates. | Jul 11 18:43 | |
| schestowitz | No-one in my family touched Vista | Jul 11 18:43 |
| schestowitz | XP is so ugly I can't touch the thing | Jul 11 18:43 |
| schestowitz | Live CDs ought to be replaced by USB though | Jul 11 18:43 |
| _Hicham_ | XP is the greatest OS ever | Jul 11 18:43 |
| I have to use XP at work. The ugly is more than skin deep. | Jul 11 18:43 | |
| _Hicham_ | XP have a LiveCD | Jul 11 18:43 |
| schestowitz | MS wants to make Vista7 ion sticks too | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | What was it called? | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | They have a gimmick name for it | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | And the VIsta/Samsung USB thing was called off, I guess | Jul 11 18:44 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter is then a Microsoft shill | Jul 11 18:44 |
| _Hicham_ | he uses XP | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | They made a big deal about it around 2006 | Jul 11 18:44 |
| ready boost | Jul 11 18:44 | |
| schestowitz | Never materialised | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Vista vapour | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Remember Ultimate Extras | Jul 11 18:44 |
| schestowitz | ROTFLMAO | Jul 11 18:44 |
| Sandisk complained about Vista not being able to use SSDs. | Jul 11 18:44 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: no, something else it's called | Jul 11 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Something live LiveDrive | Jul 11 18:45 |
| ha ha. | Jul 11 18:45 | |
| schestowitz | Indeed | Jul 11 18:45 |
| schestowitz | SSDs work OK with Win2000 | Jul 11 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Linux is a leader at that | Jul 11 18:45 |
| 10 years late to the party, they come up with their own lame name. | Jul 11 18:45 | |
| schestowitz | Mac? Haha. | Jul 11 18:45 |
| schestowitz | mac are toys | Jul 11 18:45 |
| schestowitz | They don't support hardware | Jul 11 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Only toys from APple 'R Us shops | Jul 11 18:45 |
| Vista fails on SSDs because of it's stupid indexing | Jul 11 18:46 | |
| _Hicham_ | vive Linux, vive SchestowitzOS | Jul 11 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Did a Google DC catch on fire??? | Jul 11 18:46 |
| schestowitz | vice _Hicham_ | Jul 11 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Senior Packager extraordinaire | Jul 11 18:47 |
| schestowitz | He rolls your package like he roll hashish -p | Jul 11 18:47 |
| schestowitz | *rolls ; Only tighter | Jul 11 18:47 |
| schestowitz | MS exploits Jacko's death some more: http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Michael_Jackson_memorial_propels_msnbccom_to_new_heights_50241747.html | Jul 11 18:48 |
| schestowitz | I find it sickening that people see the man die and think, "how do I monetise this?" | Jul 11 18:48 |
| schestowitz | But that's just how marketing people thing. | Jul 11 18:49 |
| schestowitz | *think | Jul 11 18:49 |
| _Hicham_ | every event is an opportunity to have money in the US | Jul 11 18:49 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPKM3iVw3Ok&feature=related | Jul 11 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Let me know what you thinkl | Jul 11 18:49 |
| macabe_ | They'll patent the procedure | Jul 11 18:49 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : we will make money from microsoft when it will die | Jul 11 18:49 |
| schestowitz | stirner posted this here in IRC | Jul 11 18:50 |
| schestowitz | "Death! Money! Yaaaaaaaaaaaah!" http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Michael_Jackson_msnbccom_and_Twitter_50142937.html | Jul 11 18:50 |
| schestowitz | *ballmer counts dollas | Jul 11 18:50 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkA9L2J2gY | Jul 11 18:51 |
| schestowitz | Oh wait! | Jul 11 18:51 |
| schestowitz | It's MS' DC that went on fire | Jul 11 18:51 |
| schestowitz | Can they borrow more money to rebuild? | Jul 11 18:51 |
| schestowitz | Bing is up in flames | Jul 11 18:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another MS executive quits. http://ping.fm/XAfrL | Jul 11 18:55 | |
| macabe_ | Had an early call this morning (1:36 am) for a DC in Tenn. (No connectivity) Still down. | Jul 11 18:56 |
| Shame on Todd Bishop. | Jul 11 19:00 | |
| Vista 7 Hype log is updated with this shameful new M$ lie. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/216759 | Jul 11 19:06 | |
| _Hicham_ | who has tested gOS in here? | Jul 11 19:07 |
| All of these lies while Vista 7 is still vapor. | Jul 11 19:07 | |
| *Eruaran has quit ("No Ping reply in 90 seconds.") | Jul 11 19:08 | |
| They promote it as everything GNU/Linux already is, something that's easy, light, cheap and can be shared. | Jul 11 19:08 | |
| *Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 19:09 | |
| It is, of course, none of these things. It's expensive, bloated, and painful because it's just Vista renamed. | Jul 11 19:09 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : do u have to use XP at work? | Jul 11 19:10 |
| *Eruaran has quit (Client Quit) | Jul 11 19:11 | |
| schestowitz | "Vista" was a move to remove the "Windows" | Jul 11 19:11 |
| schestowitz | There was "Windows 2000" | Jul 11 19:11 |
| schestowitz | "Windows 95" | Jul 11 19:11 |
| schestowitz | Vista was a departure from that | Jul 11 19:11 |
| schestowitz | Stained forever | Jul 11 19:12 |
| schestowitz | So they run back to "Windows something" | Jul 11 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Even though it IS "Vista" | Jul 11 19:12 |
| *Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 19:12 | |
| schestowitz | All the code is Vista | Jul 11 19:12 |
| schestowitz | With some new stuff on top | Jul 11 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Vista 7 has nothing major under the hoofd | Jul 11 19:12 |
| schestowitz | No fast boot | Jul 11 19:12 |
| schestowitz | So they could deliver "7" as a Vista "enhancement pack" | Jul 11 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Like SE2 | Jul 11 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Or an SP... maybe Windows Plus from 95 days | Jul 11 19:13 |
| schestowitz | "7" is a newer "DE" for the Vista base | Jul 11 19:13 |
| macabe_ | Still vista7 doesn't run well on current netbooks. | Jul 11 19:14 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't know why all netbooks in Morocco are shipped with XP | Jul 11 19:16 |
| macabe_ | Same in Roch,NY. xp or vista home. | Jul 11 19:20 |
| schestowitz | Pressure on OEMs and other parts of the saga, including intimidation tactics | Jul 11 19:26 |
| schestowitz | There was demand for Linux ones, but they were not put on shelves | Jul 11 19:27 |
| schestowitz | Intel needs to sell beefy ones | Jul 11 19:27 |
| schestowitz | I.e. not light ones with Linux, so they manufactured more with Windows even over a year ago | Jul 11 19:27 |
| _Hicham_ | i will run a company of my own that sells only linux preinstalled note/netbooks | Jul 11 19:27 |
| schestowitz | hehe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxdxZ47JouU <(Richard Dawkins Reads His Hate Mail) | Jul 11 19:30 |
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| schestowitz | This one is stronger even: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Seq2rwKucE&NR=1 | Jul 11 19:34 |
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| Omar871 | Hi | Jul 11 19:39 |
| Hello, Omar871, how are things? | Jul 11 19:40 | |
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| *desu has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Jul 11 19:41 | |
| *desudesudesu is now known as desu | Jul 11 19:42 | |
| I wonder if he will now get M$ fanboys writing him hate mail for using Mac. | Jul 11 19:43 | |
| Dawkins little hate mail reading almost looks like a Mac advert. | Jul 11 19:44 | |
| schestowitz | hehe. | Jul 11 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Well, he has used Macs since like forever | Jul 11 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Even his 20 y-o presentations | Jul 11 19:54 |
| My favorite hate mail http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=349747&cid=21233543 | Jul 11 19:56 | |
| http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=258763&cid=20075875 | Jul 11 19:56 | |
| http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=591193&cid=23892703 | Jul 11 19:58 | |
| http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=238493&cid=19519283 | Jul 11 19:58 | |
| -> it would cheaper for them to have you killed than spend good money on employing people to mod you down. | Jul 11 19:58 | |
| These were followed by links to family pictures of the person they think is twitter. Very nice people these M$ fanboys. | Jul 11 20:00 | |
| schestowitz | Report Senor Anonymous Coward to the CIA | Jul 11 20:00 |
| schestowitz | There are not many people with the name "Anonymous Coward" ;-) | Jul 11 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Coward Jr. | Jul 11 20:00 |
| The CIA is a M$ Partner. | Jul 11 20:01 | |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jul 11 20:03 | |
| The biggest M$ rip off of all is how M$FT was shoveled into all sorts of mixed investment funds. | Jul 11 20:03 | |
| When that ass in Barons was calling it a growth stock, banks and retirement funds were suckered into buying it. | Jul 11 20:04 | |
| The collapse in M$FT value has robbed virtually every working American of a large chunk of their retirement. | Jul 11 20:05 | |
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| there's something about this hate mail that makes me laugh, http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=349747&cid=21262105 | Jul 11 20:13 | |
| The message seems to be, "My faith is that M$ is immortal. Please go away so this will be true." | Jul 11 20:14 | |
| *Guest45433 is now known as Balrog_ | Jul 11 20:26 | |
| schestowitz | CIA and MS? | Jul 11 20:28 |
| schestowitz | Any links? I know of none that are obvious | Jul 11 20:29 |
| schestowitz | Google has Matt Cutts | Jul 11 20:29 |
| schestowitz | Who used to be a spook | Jul 11 20:29 |
| No, I was just being a smart ass. In general, the CIA and US have been promoting US "Allies" and "Interests" such as M$. They all have great incentive in their 401k, individual retirement accounts. | Jul 11 20:33 | |
| The CIA is frightening. | Jul 11 20:33 | |
| http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-may-aug.html#9 July 2009 (Urgent: Yes Men need money) | Jul 11 20:43 | |
| schestowitz | Yes, seen that | Jul 11 20:47 |
| *HJayS has quit ("Page closed") | Jul 11 20:57 | |
| The war on science seems to be effective http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/07/11/1155220/Study-Highlights-Gap-Between-Views-of-Scientists-and-the-Public | Jul 11 20:58 | |
| The group "anti-sec" is out causing more Havoc. It's groups like that which make me think that our "Lefty" is just a misused name. | Jul 11 20:59 | |
| Someone trolling in his name. | Jul 11 20:59 | |
| *Balrog has quit ("bye") | Jul 11 21:01 | |
| ha ha, China is more honest about why cell phones suck than US firms are. -> " China ministry officials told wireless consumers that WiFi would not be allowed on mobile phones for fear that consumers might be tempted to illegally load VoIP apps and make calls over the Net, undermining carriers' interests." | Jul 11 21:02 | |
| duh | Jul 11 21:02 | |
| Don't mention Ekiga or Asterisk! | Jul 11 21:02 | |
| trmanco | http://www.bbc.co.uk/glow/ | Jul 11 21:02 |
| trmanco | wow | Jul 11 21:03 |
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| trmanco | http://natanyellin.com/2009/07/11/regarding-richard-stallman/ | Jul 11 21:14 |
| more of that stupid RMS is a sexist crap? | Jul 11 21:18 | |
| trmanco | yeah | Jul 11 21:19 |
| I suppose that's all the mono people have, mudslinging. | Jul 11 21:19 | |
| It's going to go over about as well as the FU RMS from a week ago. | Jul 11 21:19 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] why_google_chrome_os_will_turn_gnu_linux_desktop_winner: http://is.gd/1v4De | Jul 11 21:25 | |
| schestowitz | "Shame on you, Stallman." | Jul 11 21:29 |
| schestowitz | How 'dare' RMS say the truth about Mono? | Jul 11 21:29 |
| schestowitz | See what the Microsoft fans do? | Jul 11 21:29 |
| schestowitz | That "Lefty" guy is hardly a Linux guy | Jul 11 21:30 |
| schestowitz | IIRC he uses a Mac and he worked for Apple | Jul 11 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Just shows you how Trojanning works | Jul 11 21:30 |
| Lefty works for a company called ACCESS right now. Does he still use a Mac? | Jul 11 21:31 | |
| I put as much as I could find in here last night. | Jul 11 21:31 | |
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| schestowitz | That "Lefty" guy is hardly a Linux guy and he started this attack on RMS (and he trolls BN with hundreds of derogatory comments). | Jul 11 21:34 |
| trmanco | http://news.cnet.com/8301-19882_3-10284282-250.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 | Jul 11 21:34 |
| schestowitz | I didn't follow the Ubuntu mailing lists | Jul 11 21:34 |
| schestowitz | But I wonder what led that "Fink" guy to attacking him | Jul 11 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Can anyone check why? | Jul 11 21:34 |
| schestowitz | IIRC he uses a Mac and he sure worked for Apple. He said something about Apple in the comments... so don't expect love for RMS. ACCESS is proprietary Linux AFAIK | Jul 11 21:36 |
| schestowitz | The whole DRM party on Linux... like Android. The FSF is no fan of that. | Jul 11 21:36 |
| ACCESS's main thing is software for mobile phones. When the browser on your cell phone is not as good as the free browsers you are used to, access may be why. | Jul 11 21:39 | |
| They have done browsers for Treo too. | Jul 11 21:39 | |
| ie, Palm OS. | Jul 11 21:39 | |
| I'm not ready to blame ACCESS or even the person by the same name for Lefty's comments. | Jul 11 21:39 | |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 11 21:50 | |
| I'll waste some time looking up "Mark Fink" in ubuntu. | Jul 11 22:04 | |
| Lefty's blogs all seem to attract 100 comments, as if they were written by sockpuppet factories in China. | Jul 11 22:05 | |
| I'm sure the search will be thick. | Jul 11 22:05 | |
| Here we have 117 hits http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Aubuntu.com+%22Mark+Fink%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi= | Jul 11 22:05 | |
| I don't see anything about Gnome development on the top. | Jul 11 22:06 | |
| Hmmm, ACCESS again https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008548.html | Jul 11 22:08 | |
| completely incoherent | Jul 11 22:09 | |
| but I have to agree, Lefty is a douchebag. | Jul 11 22:13 | |
| big troll thread https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/thread.html#8516 | Jul 11 22:14 | |
| Lefty has been making trouble there too https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008517.html | Jul 11 22:18 | |
| ah ha, the original Mark Fink post. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008447.html | Jul 11 22:19 | |
| *desu is now known as mudkipzz | Jul 11 22:21 | |
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| I'm looking at the Mark Fink posts. Basically looks like a straw man to beat on BN and Roy. | Jul 11 22:41 | |
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| schestowitz | Yes, looks bad. | Jul 11 22:44 |
| *Balrog has quit (Client Quit) | Jul 11 22:44 | |
| schestowitz | I thought about joining the discussion when I first saw it | Jul 11 22:45 |
| schestowitz | To distance myself from that guy or clarify at least | Jul 11 22:45 |
| _Hicham_ | was it a troll discussion schestowitz ? | Jul 11 22:45 |
| schestowitz | It looked bad since the very first message. Looked bad for the site and for me. And people were angered, not persuaded | Jul 11 22:46 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: you judge | Jul 11 22:46 |
| schestowitz | I got Palined | Jul 11 22:46 |
| I take it back, he's not so bad. | Jul 11 22:46 | |
| Certainly nothing like that ass Lefty made out. | Jul 11 22:46 | |
| _Hicham_ | ignoring twitter | Jul 11 22:47 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : who was that guy? | Jul 11 22:48 |
| schestowitz | Which one? | Jul 11 22:49 |
| schestowitz | I think that "Fink" is fake | Jul 11 22:49 |
| schestowitz | Someone told me what the name may mean | Jul 11 22:50 |
| ThistleWeb | bat fink? | Jul 11 22:50 |
| Yes, the Fink looks fake. | Jul 11 22:51 | |
| It's hard to tell. | Jul 11 22:51 | |
| One thing both Fink and Lefty's blog have in common are giant troll threads with both of them in it. | Jul 11 22:51 | |
| That might tell you something. | Jul 11 22:51 | |
| We know Lefty is some kind of troll for his attack on RMS, a signature YHBT. | Jul 11 22:53 | |
| Basically, the whole thing has all the hallmarks of a Slashdot troll thread. | Jul 11 22:53 | |
| I've read 17 comments by this Fink character. I did not see any of the personal attack stuff Lefty talked about. | Jul 11 22:54 | |
| Mostly, I saw a bunch of "I hate BN and Roy" in the responses. | Jul 11 22:54 | |
| That too is a common sockpuppet attack. They pretend to argue but they all hate something in common. | Jul 11 22:55 | |
| They drown out reasonable conversation and poison the well with their bullshit. | Jul 11 22:56 | |
| *silentivm (n=renan@189.58.202.44.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 22:57 | |
| macabe_ | "Fink" is slang for another slang term "stoolie" or "stool pidgeon" | Jul 11 22:57 |
| In this case, they filled up the developer lists with 80 to 100 long troll posts filled with personal invective and crap instead of reasonable discussion. | Jul 11 22:58 | |
| We can be sure the ubuntu people are turned off by the whole thing. | Jul 11 22:59 | |
| and BN is libeled | Jul 11 22:59 | |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 11 23:00 | |
| Lefty only shows up in the "shameful censoring of mono opposition" here. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/author.html#8447 | Jul 11 23:00 | |
| In fact, Lefty does not show up anywhere all year except a couple of GPL (troll) posts in February. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-February/007031.html | Jul 11 23:07 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] looking for volunteers to legitimise software patents = FAIL http://ping.fm/n1QcP | Jul 11 23:09 | |
| schestowitz | Trolls: http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/07/linux_not_for_everyone.php?utm_source=mostactive | Jul 11 23:14 |
| schestowitz | Co-ops ensure ubuntu http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=1027751 | Jul 11 23:14 |
| Ah, if we go back a year we find Lefty right next to Shuttleworth in a June 2008 thread about "Making Deals with M$" | Jul 11 23:15 | |
| It seems that Lefty shows up for ugly threads that deal with M$. | Jul 11 23:16 | |
| ah ha, also libel for BN https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-June/004469.html | Jul 11 23:17 | |
| *Balrog (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-68-144.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 23:20 | |
| does not seem to understand free software https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-June/004474.html | Jul 11 23:20 | |
| free means you can do things the way you want. | Jul 11 23:21 | |
| Ah, FUD control of value. Shuttleworth explicitly denies that there's any Ubuntu codec deal with M$ https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2008-June/004510.html | Jul 11 23:22 | |
| ->" There is (again) absolutely no truth to the rumour that Canonical has done a deal with Microsoft for access to codecs - either in return for money, or for some other quid-pro-quo." | Jul 11 23:22 | |
| unfortunately, Shuttleworth thinks M$ and Canonical can have shared interests, but that's not what I'm researching here. | Jul 11 23:26 | |
| Based on a years worth of Ubuntu developer list readings, I can say that Lefty is a participant in epic troll treads once a year. | Jul 11 23:27 | |
| I think his timing has something to do with Ubuntu's release schedule - Don't they put out a stable release in September? | Jul 11 23:28 | |
| schestowitz | "> Maybe Roy should make a site www.boycottubuntu.com too. | Jul 11 23:32 |
| schestowitz | " | Jul 11 23:32 |
| schestowitz | It looks like intentional provocation | Jul 11 23:33 |
| schestowitz | Posting such tripe in a Ubuntu developers list | Jul 11 23:33 |
| schestowitz | And he speaks as though he represents us or something | Jul 11 23:33 |
| It's all fake. | Jul 11 23:34 | |
| Here's the last piece of the puzzle, a complete mirror troll - casting M$ methods onto the free software community, http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-tawdry-tale.html | Jul 11 23:34 | |
| He claims Fink contacted his employer, the kind of thing M$ does as a matter of routine. | Jul 11 23:35 | |
| Then he goes on to claim that nyms polluting the list are there because they are afraid of Fink. | Jul 11 23:36 | |
| schestowitz | I think it's maybe an agent provocateur | Jul 11 23:36 |
| schestowitz | Mind you, I contacted the "Fink" address because "lefty" told me to | Jul 11 23:36 |
| schestowitz | I wasn't going to be in touch with that thing | Jul 11 23:37 |
| schestowitz | He said that this guy harassed him and then told me to mail him | Jul 11 23:37 |
| schestowitz | Then he got a copy of my message to him | Jul 11 23:37 |
| Lefty is lying -> " Roy was contrite, but equivocally so, I felt. He claimed he'd never heard of Mark Fink before that very day. He apologized, but refused to post a specific disclaimer about the site not being associated with Mr. Fink or his actions." | Jul 11 23:37 | |
| I've seen you say Fink has nothing to do with you several times. | Jul 11 23:37 | |
| schestowitz | Will ChromeOS make Google more loved or hated in open source world? < http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=4477 > | Jul 11 23:38 |
| schestowitz | It's too far fetched to assume Lefty is Fink | Jul 11 23:39 |
| The only reasonable conclusion we can draw from this is that | Jul 11 23:39 | |
| schestowitz | And that the whole thing was a setup | Jul 11 23:39 |
| no shit. | Jul 11 23:39 | |
| macabe_ | IMO anything Roy would've done was not going to stop him | Jul 11 23:39 |
| schestowitz | Goodbye Ubuntu 6.06 LTS Desktop Edition < http://news.softpedia.com/news/Goodbye-Ubuntu-6-06-LTS-Desktop-Edition-116229.shtml > | Jul 11 23:39 |
| How else would Lefty get Fink's signed message, if indeed that's your message. | Jul 11 23:39 | |
| schestowitz | Hm..... | Jul 11 23:39 |
| schestowitz | Why really was it signed? | Jul 11 23:40 |
| schestowitz | If you forward a signed message or reply to it, does it maintain the signature blocks? | Jul 11 23:40 |
| schestowitz | From what I got it seemed like Lefty was threatening to sue "Fink" | Jul 11 23:40 |
| schestowitz | The person who posted threats against Amanda from the Linux Foundation in BN comments | Jul 11 23:41 |
| Lefty talks about suing people a lot. | Jul 11 23:41 | |
| schestowitz | Lefty has connections with thre LF | Jul 11 23:41 |
| so he says. | Jul 11 23:41 | |
| schestowitz | So the paranoid might say that someone is trying to turn the LF against BN as well | Jul 11 23:41 |
| schestowitz | Temperamental | Jul 11 23:42 |
| The letter is not dated, so Lefty presents the chronology any way he likes. | Jul 11 23:42 | |
| *pk (n=pk@cpc1-broo6-0-0-cust1009.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 11 23:43 | |
| schestowitz | And omits stuff | Jul 11 23:44 |
| I'm sure. The man is a liar. | Jul 11 23:45 | |
| schestowitz | That would make him also a hypocrite | Jul 11 23:45 |
| schestowitz | But never mind that | Jul 11 23:45 |
| he tries to make himself look like an "Open Source" advocate, but he works for a non free software company. | Jul 11 23:46 | |
| schestowitz | Let's leave it at that. Remember it is HIM who dragged me into it. | Jul 11 23:46 |
| and trashes on RMS. | Jul 11 23:46 | |
| If that's your letter, you might want to publish the entire thing. | Jul 11 23:46 | |
| If it's not, you need to disclaim it. | Jul 11 23:46 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/10/ebay_and_shill_bidding/ (Net sleuth calls eBay on carpet over shill bidding) | Jul 11 23:47 |
| I'm relatively sure Fink and Lefty are nyms for the same troll. | Jul 11 23:47 | |
| schestowitz | "How can you be sure the price of your latest eBay buy wasn't shamelessly inflated by some faceless shill bidder?" It's not just an ebay issue. | Jul 11 23:47 |
| schestowitz | twitter: I don't want to carry on discussion with this scummy man. it's him who keeps trolling BN for attention. | Jul 11 23:47 |
| yes, he's using your site's ranking to inflate his own blog. | Jul 11 23:48 | |
| schestowitz | No-one paid attention to him, so he started provoking those who brought him attention | Jul 11 23:49 |
| I think the whole thing was a set up from the start. | Jul 11 23:49 | |
| schestowitz | Remember: it is HIM who told me to mail that Fink E-mail address and it is him who pulled stuff I sent to that address and published portions | Jul 11 23:49 |
| schestowitz | Like pretexting | Jul 11 23:49 |
| he created the thing from start to finish | Jul 11 23:50 | |
| "Roy is destroying a free software advocate like me, trying to get me fired" .... | Jul 11 23:50 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Orange UK drops DRM < http://ping.fm/CYePi >. Apple still support DRM in many areas. | Jul 11 23:51 | |
| schestowitz | Is that a real quote? | Jul 11 23:51 |
| No, I made it up, but that's basically what he says. | Jul 11 23:51 | |
| schestowitz | Well, that's the message he's trying to convey without proof anyway | Jul 11 23:51 |
| He says this, " Mark and Roy and their friends are staking out, that someone who disagrees with you is fair game for victimization" | Jul 11 23:51 | |
| Funny, I thought one of the recurring themes here was how awful the M$ people are for doing just that. | Jul 11 23:52 | |
| Peter Guttman, Peter Quinn, Tim Bray and so on and so forth. | Jul 11 23:52 | |
| The guy who ran Boycott Microsoft | Jul 11 23:53 | |
| Like I said, this is a mirror troll. M$ tarring opposition with the worst of their own unethical conduct. | Jul 11 23:54 | |
| So, is that really you as the first comment on his blog? | Jul 11 23:55 | |
| I don't think so, http://www.blogger.com/profile/04422170397340869575 | Jul 11 23:55 | |
| There are 122 more messages there. | Jul 11 23:55 | |
| The one purportedly from you is dated June 15th a month ago. | Jul 11 23:56 | |
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