IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 19th, 2009

_Goblin	Roy, do you know what happened to AstralKnight? What was he banned from Digg and why has he not posted in the last 24 hours?	Jul 19 00:00
schestowitz	_Goblin already has something like that	Jul 19 00:00
schestowitz	OK, done. I already have an account. Can someone please try to leave a comment in BN (anywhere) by opening an account there? It is now required that one registers.	Jul 19 00:02
schestowitz	_Goblin: I don't even know who that person is	Jul 19 00:02
schestowitz	I know the name... some fan of ours	Jul 19 00:02
schestowitz	An open alternative for Palm Pre iTunes users http://practical-tech.com/entertainment/an-open-alternative-for-palm-pre-itunes-users/	Jul 19 00:05
_Goblin	doesnt matter then....I came across him when he dugg a few of my articles....He was quite a regular poster on Twitter too.	Jul 19 00:05
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: so whats up?	Jul 19 00:06
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schestowitz	Security issues with sudo http://mihaiv.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/security-issues-with-sudo/	Jul 19 00:06
schestowitz	wallclimber: BN now requires logging in to comment. I gave up and adopted a Groklaw-like commenting policy. When there is a level of person thread with libel against me, I am left with no other choice.	Jul 19 00:07
twitter	sanity check	Jul 19 00:07
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seller_liar	roy ,are you here?	Jul 19 00:08
wallclimber	I think that having to log in is a good choice.	Jul 19 00:08
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schestowitz	seller_liar: hey, what's up?	Jul 19 00:09
schestowitz	seller_liar: did you hear about ODF? :-D	Jul 19 00:09
seller_liar	We need create a section called "common troll tactics"	Jul 19 00:09
seller_liar	no	Jul 19 00:09
seller_liar	in wiki	Jul 19 00:09
schestowitz	wallclimber: most discussion is in IRC anyway	Jul 19 00:09
schestowitz	seller_liar: I can find a starting point	Jul 19 00:09
schestowitz	seller_liar: hold on	Jul 19 00:09
wallclimber	A Guide to common Troll Identification (needs some illustrations, don't you think? : )	Jul 19 00:10
seller_liar	for example ,explain what is "mod bombing" , "frontpage attack", various names and tohers	Jul 19 00:10
seller_liar	Yes ,but we have to find one	Jul 19 00:10
schestowitz	seller_liar: I'll start a page. HOld on.	Jul 19 00:11
seller_liar	ok thanks !	Jul 19 00:11
seller_liar	green geek for example give us a good explananation about a front attack to disrupt site ads and page ranking	Jul 19 00:12
tessier	schestowitz: Does groklaw have similar problems? Do they require registration?	Jul 19 00:13
tessier	I think requiring registration and a working email address is a fine thing.	Jul 19 00:13
tessier	It doesn't mean the trolls have one. It means you aren't making it so easy for them anymore.	Jul 19 00:13
schestowitz	tessier: yes, PJ told me about rise in trolling	Jul 19 00:14
schestowitz	seller_liar: hold on	Jul 19 00:14
schestowitz	You can help me a lot, I'll post a placeholder	Jul 19 00:14
tessier	I also support deleting comments you don't agree with. It is your blog. MS already has plenty of forums in which to express their opinion and answer criticisms. No need for you to help them with it.	Jul 19 00:14
schestowitz	tessier: better to avoid deletion	Jul 19 00:15
schestowitz	But if people's E-mail addy gets banned, they'll be careful when posting	Jul 19 00:15
schestowitz	Creating new addies takes time, then registering too	Jul 19 00:15
wallclimber	Just curious, but how accurate do you (meaning anyone that wants to answer) think the "Security issues with sudo" blog post is?	Jul 19 00:15
twitter	How do you register to BN?	Jul 19 00:16
tessier	schestowitz: Currently the machine only has a gig of RAM. I just upped it to two which should improve performance quite a bit. But it will require a reboot to take effect.	Jul 19 00:16
tessier	wallclimber: What blog post? url? I use sudo extensively.	Jul 19 00:16
wallclimber	Roy posted this a little earlier: http://mihaiv.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/security-issues-with-sudo/	Jul 19 00:16
tessier	I enabled the msyql query cache and it is working according to mysql but does not seem to be having much effect on performance.	Jul 19 00:16
twitter	The trolls will probably have all their accounts registered by now.... it's their job to stay on top of these things.	Jul 19 00:18
twitter	and here I sit with other things to do.	Jul 19 00:18
tessier	wallclimber: That looks like an ubuntu specific thing. Not sudo in general.	Jul 19 00:18
tessier	twitter: Even if they do they will get banned soon enough and have to start over.	Jul 19 00:19
wallclimber	Yes, it does seem to be about Ubuntu, but towards the end the blogger seems to suggest that WindowsXP handles things more securely, and the very last line says this: "Linux security fundamentalists please read the above twice before posting"	Jul 19 00:19
seller_liar	creating a section avout commn troll attack,helps people to detect common trolls	Jul 19 00:20
ThistleWeb	you could employ moderation to comments, and move all troll comments by known MS trolls to a separate page linked to the article in question	Jul 19 00:20
ThistleWeb	instead of including them in the normal flow of comments, allowing them to derail it	Jul 19 00:20
ThistleWeb	which also allows you to retain them as evidence	Jul 19 00:20
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Commenting_Policy	Jul 19 00:21
*_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal")		Jul 19 00:21
ThistleWeb	a sorta dual column of comments, one for normal users, another for the known trolls	Jul 19 00:21
ThistleWeb	where the normal one is shown by default	Jul 19 00:21
ThistleWeb	that'd take time and effort to moderate though	Jul 19 00:21
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: exactly	Jul 19 00:22
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schestowitz	I also don't have the software	Jul 19 00:23
schestowitz	wallclimber: not sue about that post, so I posted here, not in daily news picks	Jul 19 00:23
wallclimber	okay, that's what I was wondering about, it seemed a little trollish to me, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to really say	Jul 19 00:24
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Common_Troll_Tactics	Jul 19 00:24
ThistleWeb	I have a project that I'm still trying to conceptualise which will draw a lot of trolls and attacks like BN, my ideas for addressing it were things like having an IRC server, instead of freenode and only allow registered members to contribute to either the site or the IRC, where memberships need to be manually approved, and an IRC nick manually asigned if they want it.....matching their site nick	Jul 19 00:25
schestowitz	Can anyone volunteer to turn this into something that suits the context (site as opposed to the Linux NG where I'm a regular)?	Jul 19 00:25
ThistleWeb	that way they can only use the site under one unified username	Jul 19 00:25
schestowitz	I see..	Jul 19 00:25
schestowitz	We could run IRC from the BN server	Jul 19 00:25
schestowitz	GPL software	Jul 19 00:25
schestowitz	But we use Freenode's server	Jul 19 00:25
ThistleWeb	if they troll on either comments / forum / irc it;s all tied together as one person	Jul 19 00:26
ThistleWeb	and can be banned / warned etc from the entirety of the site	Jul 19 00:26
ThistleWeb	with freenode, anyone can get an account on freenode and jump in	Jul 19 00:26
ThistleWeb	with your own irc server you can set it to members only can take part, non members can read only	Jul 19 00:27
ThistleWeb	and you manually approve or create accounts	Jul 19 00:27
schestowitz	IRC is easier to police	Jul 19 00:28
schestowitz	Because unlike comments you don't eliminate what people write	Jul 19 00:28
schestowitz	You can eliminate trolls without deleting anything	Jul 19 00:28
ThistleWeb	with your own irc channel, you can ensure that EVERYONE who comes in, has been approved and an account created for them to use, they can't change nicks and return after being banned	Jul 19 00:29
schestowitz	http://twitter.com/glynmoody/statuses/2691835966	Jul 19 00:29
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: own IRC channel is noit simple	Jul 19 00:29
ThistleWeb	irc server*	Jul 19 00:29
schestowitz	I was going to do it, but it's requiring Twisted (for Python)	Jul 19 00:30
schestowitz	tessier: I can't reach BN	Jul 19 00:30
ThistleWeb	no worries, like I said, I'm still trying to conceptualise the project I have in mind so there;s a lot of ideas which may not be all that practical	Jul 19 00:31
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tessier__	schestowitz: Something weird going on with the server. I'm looking into it. Back up ASAP. Might be related to the bump in memory I gave the site.	Jul 19 00:34
tessier__	brb	Jul 19 00:34
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schestowitz	tessier: thanks	Jul 19 00:34
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splosion	BN is down?	Jul 19 00:39
splosion	http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/boycottnovell.com	Jul 19 00:40
splosion	bummer	Jul 19 00:40
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schestowitz	97 former residences of the famous demolished in Beijing < http://www.danwei.org/architecture/97_former_residences_of_the_fa.php >	Jul 19 00:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I think Sunday 19th of July should be Gary Beeton day...Who's Gary Beeton?....a profile of the legend coming soon on Openbytes...		Jul 19 00:44
schestowitz	Irish Politician: Data Retention Is Good If You Have Nothing To Hide... But Don't Ask For My Data < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090714/1100305545.shtml ?	Jul 19 00:46
schestowitz	Overtis identifies security weaknesses in national children’s database http://www.prosecurityzone.com/Customisation/News/IT_Security/Data_Protection/Overtis_identifies_security_weaknesses_in_national_childrens_database.asp	Jul 19 00:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "When Jack Schofield responds in the comments section, it's often his comments that get deleted by the Guardian moderator ..." http:// ...		Jul 19 00:51
schestowitz	The Great Google Doodle Triforce Conspiracy http://blogoscoped.com/archive/2009-07-16-n41.html	Jul 19 00:52
schestowitz	tacone: ilalian MEP calls for EU Parliament mafias probe http://www.euractiv.com/en/eu-elections/italian-mep-calls-eu-parliament-mafias-probe/article-184200	Jul 19 00:55
tacone	what's a MEP ?	Jul 19 00:55
schestowitz	PM	Jul 19 00:56
schestowitz	parliment member sih	Jul 19 00:57
tacone	that's interesting though. an european committee would be nice. less influentiable by the mafia	Jul 19 00:57
tacone	if someone stresses an EU intervent it means he doesn't trust the Italian government	Jul 19 00:58
tacone	you'll know that mafia is in real danger only they start shooting. until they don't start shooting again it means that they're doing just fine.	Jul 19 00:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ACTA is still under siege for the civil violation that it is. http://bit.ly/qUSNz		Jul 19 00:59
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schestowitz	tessier: how's it going?	Jul 19 01:05
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tessier	Everything is back up.	Jul 19 01:05
tessier	schestowitz: Sorry for all the downtime lately. It's been weird.	Jul 19 01:05
tessier	I just kernel panic'd the xen domain0 somehow.	Jul 19 01:05
schestowitz	tessier: that's OK	Jul 19 01:05
tessier	Been using xen for years and never seen that happen before.	Jul 19 01:05
schestowitz	I'm grateful for your support	Jul 19 01:05
*tessier is retracing steps to figure out what could have happened		Jul 19 01:05
tessier	You are back up with double the RAM and 2 cpu's now (had just one before). I noticed with all the new traffic the site was starting to swap and slow down. Hopefully this will help.	Jul 19 01:06
schestowitz	:-)	Jul 19 01:06
schestowitz	Should we upgrade WordPress now?	Jul 19 01:06
oiaohm	tessier Do you have a spare server. I have had a xen domain kernel panic due to defective ram.	Jul 19 01:06
schestowitz	It would be better to do it while you are around just in case	Jul 19 01:07
tessier	oiaohm: Oddly enough, I ordered another server a couple of days ago. Should be here any day now.	Jul 19 01:07
tessier	They will both be on a SAN so I can do domain migration.	Jul 19 01:07
tessier	And if the server goes down I could instantly restart the domains on the other server.	Jul 19 01:08
tessier	I am slowly building out my managed hosting business. So more hardware (lots more) is definitely needed to reach the level of service required..	Jul 19 01:08
tessier	We have been mostly in beta stages the last couple months.	Jul 19 01:08
schestowitz	I'm gonna see if auto-upgrade works in WordPress. It's supposed to just work	Jul 19 01:09
tessier	I am pretty sure I accidentally over-committed the RAM when I did the upgrade. But xen should not have allowed me to do that and given me an error instead of letting it crash.	Jul 19 01:09
oiaohm	over committed ram should also make oomkiller got to work as well.	Jul 19 01:10
tessier	oomkiller is not involved in xen	Jul 19 01:10
tessier	The hypervisor runs above the linux kernel and oomkiller	Jul 19 01:10
oiaohm	Opps I am thinking KVM	Jul 19 01:11
tessier	Yeah, kvm works completely differently. I may migrate to it somehow but right now I am on xen and don't see enough advantage to kvm	Jul 19 01:12
tessier	The fact that redhat is moving to kvm has my attention though	Jul 19 01:12
oiaohm	kvm + ksm there is an advantage.	Jul 19 01:13
tessier	The whole goal of this xen-aoe architecture I have deployed is that I don't have to actually drive down here to the datacenter.	Jul 19 01:13
tessier	oiaohm: What is ksm and what is the advantage?	Jul 19 01:13
oiaohm	ksm is a alteration to the Linux kernel memory managment so it can merge identical ram pages.	Jul 19 01:14
tessier	Identical RAM pages? How often does that really happen?	Jul 19 01:14
splosion	schestowitz: wordpress upgrade? Just a software upgrade or is the site getting a make-over or something?	Jul 19 01:14
oiaohm	Quite a lot really.	Jul 19 01:14
tessier	Interesting	Jul 19 01:15
oiaohm	Think running 2 kernels the same.	Jul 19 01:15
oiaohm	That is duplication.	Jul 19 01:15
oiaohm	libc again duplication.	Jul 19 01:15
tessier	The load on the server seems to be much less now. I think that extra gig of RAM really helped. Not surprising. 2G is normally my standard starting point anyway.	Jul 19 01:15
tessier	oiaohm: But even just a 1 byte offset will mess everything up.	Jul 19 01:15
tessier	How does it keep track of identical pages? Some sort of hash?	Jul 19 01:16
tessier	I guess it does the hash once and is then copy on write from there on?	Jul 19 01:16
oiaohm	Yep.	Jul 19 01:16
schestowitz	OK, I start manual upgrade	Jul 19 01:16
tessier	schestowitz: go for it	Jul 19 01:16
schestowitz	software upgrade	Jul 19 01:16
oiaohm	Catch is Linux kernel does by page offsetting of programs.	Jul 19 01:16
oiaohm	So static parts of binary will be in pages that can be merged.	Jul 19 01:17
splosion	software upgrade? Aww poop that's not exciting for me	Jul 19 01:18
oiaohm	The other is what orcale is working on tmem	Jul 19 01:18
schestowitz	I worry about one plugin (threaded comments)	Jul 19 01:18
schestowitz	oiaohm: does 2.7->2.8 really require disabling plugins like predecessors?	Jul 19 01:18
oiaohm	I have not had to do upgrades on wordpress yet schestowitz.	Jul 19 01:19
oiaohm	My uses of it are internal.	Jul 19 01:19
splosion	what's up with the threading limit on the comments, anyway? I've seen wordpress blogs with threads 10 levels deep	Jul 19 01:19
tessier	tmem?	Jul 19 01:20
tessier	oiaohm: Is the by page offsetting a security feature/	Jul 19 01:20
tessier	?	Jul 19 01:20
tessier	ASLR etc?	Jul 19 01:20
oiaohm	http://oss.oracle.com/projects/tmem/ << There is tmem.	Jul 19 01:21
oiaohm	Yes ASLR Address randomisation happens by page.	Jul 19 01:21
schestowitz	I'll try with plguins in. Fingers crossed, I have backups anyway	Jul 19 01:22
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tessier	It's our good friend Amicus Brief! Hello Mr Brief!	Jul 19 01:24
amicus	Not Amicus	Jul 19 01:24
amicus	Brief	Jul 19 01:24
oiaohm	Basically virtualisation tech on Linux is improving tessier.	Jul 19 01:24
tessier	oiaohm: No doubt. I'm enjoying it. I've been deploying xen for people for the last 4 years.	Jul 19 01:25
tessier	Works great. I look forward to more improvements. That is one reason why I have started my own business doing it. Not enough people can commit the resources to really doing it right.	Jul 19 01:25
tessier	I see people buying one box and putting a ton of RAM in it and then putting everything on it with vmware and then the box goes down and they lose 64G of vm's with it. Ouch. And no SAN behind it.	Jul 19 01:26
schestowitz	tessier: stick around just in case. It's almost done.	Jul 19 01:26
tessier	Because they can't afford it and the way I do it is too hard for them.	Jul 19 01:26
tessier	schestowitz: No problem.	Jul 19 01:26
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splosion	jesus. This Lefty guy is showing up all over the place. he's trolling every single blog on the internet, by the looks of it	Jul 19 01:30
oiaohm	Linux is getting 3 major techs for spliting servers. KVM XEN and CGROUPS. Each have there advantages and disadvantages.	Jul 19 01:30
Diablo-D3	kvm, however, sucks dick	Jul 19 01:30
Diablo-D3	xen is okay but badly needs a fork to keep the microfucks out	Jul 19 01:30
Diablo-D3	and Ive never heard of cgroups, which not boding well for it	Jul 19 01:30
oiaohm	Clone of solarias zones is cgroups Diablo-D3	Jul 19 01:31
tessier	Diablo-D3: "sucks dick" is your professional opinion eh?	Jul 19 01:31
Diablo-D3	tessier: Ive been able to oops my kernel with it	Jul 19 01:31
schestowitz	WHat kind of blogs are being trolled?	Jul 19 01:31
tessier	Diablo-D3: I just oopsed my kernel with xen 30 minutes ago which is why I am here in the datacenter. What's your point?	Jul 19 01:32
Diablo-D3	only reason I looked at it because fglrx doesnt like being on the xen dom0 kernel	Jul 19 01:32
twitter	*** twitter ignores diablo, does not want to spread splosion of propaganda either	Jul 19 01:32
Diablo-D3	twitter: dude, fuck off	Jul 19 01:32
Diablo-D3	and get a real nick	Jul 19 01:32
tessier	Why on earth would you need fglrx with xen?	Jul 19 01:32
Diablo-D3	tessier: because its my workstation	Jul 19 01:32
schestowitz	twitter: there is some linsxxxxxxx crowd here	Jul 19 01:32
Diablo-D3	tessier: I was developing cluster apps and needed a cluster	Jul 19 01:32
twitter	why do you listen to oiaohm?	Jul 19 01:32
oiaohm	kvm and xen both are different design hyprvisors.	Jul 19 01:32
Diablo-D3	lets double the dickery here	Jul 19 01:33
*tessier ignores Diablo-D3 too		Jul 19 01:33
Diablo-D3	*** diablo ignores twitter, because he hates people	Jul 19 01:33
twitter	schestowitz, I know. I've ignored most of them	Jul 19 01:33
oiaohm	twitter: I do keep up with tech.	Jul 19 01:33
splosion	schestowitz: well, yours, jason's site, canonical's cto, a bunch of personal blogs. I don't think it's anything new to you lot :P I'm just really coming across his antics for the first time	Jul 19 01:33
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: theres been a few projects to try to do bsd jails/solairs zones	Jul 19 01:33
tessier	Why not just kick them?	Jul 19 01:33
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: btw, my blog was trolled	Jul 19 01:33
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: does that count?	Jul 19 01:33
twitter	that's for Roy to do.	Jul 19 01:33
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: jails are way different to zones.	Jul 19 01:34
twitter	there seems to be an overload of them here right now.	Jul 19 01:34
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: serves much the same purpose however	Jul 19 01:34
schestowitz	I know	Jul 19 01:34
oiaohm	Nop	Jul 19 01:34
schestowitz	Let me finish with the upgrade first	Jul 19 01:34
oiaohm	Not even close Diablo-D3	Jul 19 01:34
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if you're vpsing with solaris zones, obviously no	Jul 19 01:34
oiaohm	Zones control cpu and resource access times.	Jul 19 01:34
twitter	take your time, I'm not in a hurry.	Jul 19 01:34
oiaohm	Something is not a concern of a pure jail Diablo-D3	Jul 19 01:35
schestowitz	It failed somewhat	Jul 19 01:36
schestowitz	Let's try again	Jul 19 01:36
oiaohm	Basically zones can be used for job control or creating a jail.	Jul 19 01:36
schestowitz	tessier: I will need to resore the DB in a moment	Jul 19 01:37
oiaohm	Current Linux cgroups are complete enough for job control. Not complete enough to create a full blown jail Diablo-D3.	Jul 19 01:37
Diablo-D3	wait, does cgroups == openvz, linux-vserver, freevps, and friends?	Jul 19 01:38
schestowitz	I'm restoring files from backup, then we need to do the DB	Jul 19 01:38
oiaohm	Its a merge of those 3 Diablo-D3. Because only 1 framework for doing that task can enter main line Linux kernel.	Jul 19 01:39
Diablo-D3	got a url?	Jul 19 01:39
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: what happened, btw?	Jul 19 01:39
oiaohm	http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/cgroups.txt That is a overview there is a cgroup for creating a virtual PID and UID space. Problem is device access and proc access.	Jul 19 01:41
oiaohm	Also due to kvm being like a normal process. cgroup controls can be used on it Diablo-D3.	Jul 19 01:47
schestowitz	tessier: ping	Jul 19 01:50
twitter	reading the pjprimer thing about Canopus	Jul 19 01:50
twitter	I'm amazed that M$'s insanity goes back as far as the early 90s. Biermann trying to get his fellow M$ employee fired for not being a big enough ass, unbelievable.	Jul 19 01:51
twitter	Take that as a lesson in M$ ethics.	Jul 19 01:51
schestowitz	tessier: are you around?	Jul 19 01:51
oiaohm	MS bad ethics started with DOS and the deal with IBM twitter	Jul 19 01:53
oiaohm	It just progressively got worse.	Jul 19 01:53
tessier	schestowitz: Yep	Jul 19 01:59
tessier	How's it going?	Jul 19 01:59
schestowitz	In /~ I have a file "latest-wp.dump". This is the WordPress DB file that we need restored.	Jul 19 01:59
schestowitz	Not yet	Jul 19 01:59
schestowitz	I mean ~	Jul 19 01:59
schestowitz	home dir	Jul 19 01:59
schestowitz	In a moment	Jul 19 01:59
tessier	Ok, just let me know when....	Jul 19 01:59
schestowitz	I'll need to do the upgrade only after deactivating plguins	Jul 19 02:00
schestowitz	No shortcuts	Jul 19 02:00
tessier	Will you be ready to do it in the next few minutes? If not I'll head back home which will take ~20 minutes.	Jul 19 02:00
schestowitz	Just a minute... :-)	Jul 19 02:03
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: just shove twitter on ignore	Jul 19 02:03
schestowitz	OK, let's do it now	Jul 19 02:04
schestowitz	It's done putting the old files in place, just need to old DB restored from latest-wp.dump	Jul 19 02:04
schestowitz	to the wordpress DB (about 290MB)	Jul 19 02:04
tessier	ok	Jul 19 02:05
tessier	So I am going to drop the db, recreate it, and load ~boycottn/latest-wp.dump	Jul 19 02:05
tessier	right?	Jul 19 02:05
schestowitz	OK, it's back to normal	Jul 19 02:06
schestowitz	This time I won't upgrade the lazy way	Jul 19 02:06
schestowitz	Thanks a lot	Jul 19 02:06
schestowitz	Oh, wait.	Jul 19 02:06
*tessier waits		Jul 19 02:06
schestowitz	Did you not resotre yet?	Jul 19 02:06
tessier	I have not done anything yet	Jul 19 02:06
schestowitz	Oh	Jul 19 02:06
tessier	You are ready for me to drop the old db and restore/	Jul 19 02:06
tessier	?	Jul 19 02:06
schestowitz	It even works with the upgraded DB	Jul 19 02:06
oiaohm	twitter does have some valid ideas from time to time Diablo-D3. Just we don't see eye to eye on particular things. twitter is a little too much zellot.	Jul 19 02:07
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: hes a troll though	Jul 19 02:07
schestowitz	But it's safer to load the old one.	Jul 19 02:07
Diablo-D3	he puts people on ignore then publically announces it	Jul 19 02:07
schestowitz	"<tessier> So I am going to drop the db, recreate it, and load ~boycottn/latest-wp.dump"	Jul 19 02:07
schestowitz	Let's do it now	Jul 19 02:07
oiaohm	I get called a troll too from time to time. Diablo-D3	Jul 19 02:08
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: see above	Jul 19 02:08
Diablo-D3	and he needs to find a new nick	Jul 19 02:08
oiaohm	See Zellot	Jul 19 02:08
oiaohm	He cannot tollerate anyone with a different idea to him.	Jul 19 02:08
Diablo-D3	thus he stays on ignore until he learns to behave	Jul 19 02:08
tessier	ok	Jul 19 02:08
tessier	Loading the old one now...	Jul 19 02:09
oiaohm	Sooner or latter he will be setting ignore to everyone in channel.	Jul 19 02:09
ThistleWeb	yeah twitter does seem like a one-trick-pony with an attitude problem	Jul 19 02:09
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: basically don't ignore him does not deserve that.	Jul 19 02:09
schestowitz	See what happens in some forums	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	my time is not infinite, neither is my	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	[08:58:34] <Diablo-D3> got a url?	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	[08:58:42] <Diablo-D3> schestowitz: what happened, btw?	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	[09:00:48] <oiaohm> http://www.mjmwired.net/kernel/Documentation/cgroups.txt	Jul 19 02:10
ThistleWeb	not very welcoming for new peeps to the channel	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	ack	Jul 19 02:10
schestowitz	Suspicions of people is always high	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	goddmanit xchat!	Jul 19 02:10
tessier	loading....	Jul 19 02:10
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: please stay out for now	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: stay out of what?	Jul 19 02:10
ThistleWeb	he epotomises the stereotypes of zealots first hand and plays into the FUD	Jul 19 02:10
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: nm	Jul 19 02:10
Diablo-D3	its just xchat pasting random crap	Jul 19 02:10
oiaohm	Having people about his topics and not understanding what is going on will teach him lesson of tollerence. Diablo-D3	Jul 19 02:10
tessier	done	Jul 19 02:11
tessier	schestowitz: How does it look/	Jul 19 02:11
Diablo-D3	[09:29:23] <Diablo-D3> my time is not infinite, neither is my patience	Jul 19 02:11
tessier	?	Jul 19 02:11
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: meh	Jul 19 02:11
schestowitz	tessier: excellent!	Jul 19 02:11
oiaohm	Me have lot of patience.	Jul 19 02:11
schestowitz	Works OK. Still in version 2.7. I am going to do the long upgrade route	Jul 19 02:11
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schestowitz	I hopefully won't bother you again. This ought to work right this time	Jul 19 02:12
tessier	ok, I'm heading home then. Will be back online in 20-30 min.	Jul 19 02:12
schestowitz	THanks, tessier	Jul 19 02:12
schestowitz	tessier: I live next to a DC too	Jul 19 02:12
oiaohm	I am getting really sick of this marking compains recently everything has to leak.	Jul 19 02:12
schestowitz	200 meters from it	Jul 19 02:12
oiaohm	No nice normal announce ments.	Jul 19 02:12
schestowitz	oiaohm: MS killed another product	Jul 19 02:12
schestowitz	And they will report massive drop in profit	Jul 19 02:12
oiaohm	Ok what one.	Jul 19 02:12
oiaohm	Link.	Jul 19 02:13
schestowitz	http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3378	Jul 19 02:13
schestowitz	Microsoft is VERY nervous right now	Jul 19 02:13
schestowitz	That's no paranoid talk	Jul 19 02:13
schestowitz	Watch Ballmer's talk the other dau	Jul 19 02:13
schestowitz	He went mental over the economy. There was a video he was ridiculed for	Jul 19 02:13
schestowitz	BN is one of the good sites for showing the decline of division,s staff, and profits	Jul 19 02:14
splosion	just finished reading lefty's lawsuit challenge. sheesh.	Jul 19 02:14
oiaohm	They are not getting it.	Jul 19 02:14
oiaohm	The economy is not the problem.	Jul 19 02:14
oiaohm	If economy was a problem companies like redhat would be hurting.	Jul 19 02:14
schestowitz	splosion: If he sues then I am suing... for Libel . Companies are simply people and the behaviour of their employees -- more so with senior employees -- is the behaviour of the company and its responsibility if the issues discussed relate to its field of operations.	Jul 19 02:15
splosion	red hat. top 500. nice work	Jul 19 02:15
schestowitz	He can't sue as it would ruin him, on top of already libeling me	Jul 19 02:15
schestowitz	He uses lawsuit threat as manipulation/intimidation tool.	Jul 19 02:15
splosion	schestowitz: good luck. although hope it doesn't come to that. I called the guy a cunt on my blog. tell him to sue me instead	Jul 19 02:16
schestowitz	splosion: he curses everyone	Jul 19 02:16
schestowitz	I think it's an attudinal issue	Jul 19 02:16
splosion	yes I saw	Jul 19 02:16
schestowitz	I wish his luck with his health.. mental health	Jul 19 02:16
ThistleWeb	maybe he has comments-tourettes	Jul 19 02:16
schestowitz	I never saw that dispue betwen him and FInk	Jul 19 02:17
schestowitz	I wonder if he abused him too like he abuses everyone	Jul 19 02:17
schestowitz	That would explain the person snitching to his employer	Jul 19 02:17
schestowitz	David tried to blame it on me LOL	Jul 19 02:17
schestowitz	I'm gonna try to disable plugins now	Jul 19 02:18
schestowitz	Then slide in the new files, then handle the plugins again	Jul 19 02:18
schestowitz	The issue I fear is that comments will flatted	Jul 19 02:18
schestowitz	flatten	Jul 19 02:18
schestowitz	One of the plguins tends to do it when I test it	Jul 19 02:18
schestowitz	I might try to leave it enabled	Jul 19 02:18
splosion	ThistleWeb: I swear all the time. I have an attitude problem, fo sho. If I think someone is a tosser, then I'll just bloody well say so. what I don't do, however, is threaten people with lawsuits over it. wtf man? something crawled up that guy's arse and died a long, long time ago	Jul 19 02:19
ThistleWeb	I swear a lot too, I have no probs with peeps swearing; the key is context.	Jul 19 02:20
splosion	I guess so	Jul 19 02:20
ThistleWeb	a word is just a word	Jul 19 02:20
twitter	foul words are not simply words - the taboo does things to your head and it has been proven experimentally to act as a pain killer.	Jul 19 02:22
twitter	a torrent of foulness will create stress in the recipient	Jul 19 02:22
ThistleWeb	lol twitter	Jul 19 02:22
ThistleWeb	you are an endless source of amusement	Jul 19 02:23
splosion	no, that's actually true	Jul 19 02:23
splosion	another fact is that swear-words weren't invented till immediately after the shin-level table (commonly known as a coffee table nowadays) was invented	Jul 19 02:24
ThistleWeb	if that's a result of a study, again I point to context	Jul 19 02:24
twitter	http://www.courant.com/features/hc-humor-shea0718.artjul18,0,3151637.column	Jul 19 02:25
ThistleWeb	a string of swear words in a comedy routine is different to a string of swear words being shouted by some looney in the street	Jul 19 02:25
ThistleWeb	some peeps are more indoctrinated to react to swearing too	Jul 19 02:26
splosion	True. the thing is, swearing is unnecessary by definition. that's what makes it so delicious	Jul 19 02:26
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twitter	the reaction, at some level, is the same	Jul 19 02:27
twitter	the article I found is not the best write up.	Jul 19 02:27
ThistleWeb	it is usefull for emphasising stuff but is often overused, or used by peeps who have no comprehension of the meaning.....most common being "that's gay"	Jul 19 02:27
ThistleWeb	technically not swearing now I think about it lol	Jul 19 02:28
seller_liar	for example , voting posts is used by trolls to destroy credibility	Jul 19 02:28
seller_liar	cola guide about trolls is very good, but we need some updates	Jul 19 02:28
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splosion	hey schestowitz, have you ever written a BN article about Ed Curry?	Jul 19 02:29
schestowitz	No	Jul 19 02:29
twitter	better article http://www.news-medical.net/news/20090716/Ease-that-pain-by-swearing!.aspx	Jul 19 02:29
schestowitz	Good news	Jul 19 02:30
schestowitz	Updrage was successful this time, at first sight	Jul 19 02:30
seller_liar	greengeek cites another attack trolls too :http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/18/abuse-and-intimidation-from-trolls/	Jul 19 02:30
seller_liar	we need to put these strategies in "common troll tactics"	Jul 19 02:30
splosion	it's one of those things that's been swept under the rug. it's a shame. If it wasn't for archive.org, a lot of the information about it all wouldn't exist any more. I should write about it some time	Jul 19 02:30
twitter	taboo words should be avoided because they manipulate people in a powerful way	Jul 19 02:31
ThistleWeb	yep, the old self censorship and sticking-your-fingers-in-your-ears style....classic	Jul 19 02:32
ThistleWeb	meanwhile, back in the real world	Jul 19 02:32
twitter	-> 64 volunteers who were asked to submerge their hand in a tub of freezing water for as long as possible while repeating a swear word of their choice. The experiment was then repeated, this time using a more commonplace, neutral word which they might use to describe a table and the researchers found, despite their initial expectations, that the volunteers were able to keep their hands plunged in the ice water for a longer period	Jul 19 02:32
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twitter	-> On average, the students were able to tolerate the pain for nearly two minutes when swearing, compared with only one minute and 15 seconds when they refrained from using expletives	Jul 19 02:33
seller_liar	hey twitter , can you update "common troll tactics" ?	Jul 19 02:35
ThistleWeb	schestowitz: could wordpress be tweaked to block certain users from voting comments and articles while allowing others to vote	Jul 19 02:35
twitter	where is the article common troll tactics ?	Jul 19 02:35
ThistleWeb	that'd anny the MS shills	Jul 19 02:35
ThistleWeb	annoy*	Jul 19 02:36
seller_liar	wait	Jul 19 02:36
seller_liar	http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Common_Troll_Tactics	Jul 19 02:37
seller_liar	cola troll tactics is a bit outdated	Jul 19 02:37
schestowitz	Yes! :-) (to self	Jul 19 02:37
schestowitz	seller_liar: bring it up to date as you see suitable :-)	Jul 19 02:37
schestowitz	I'm managing to maintain comment structure as I upgrade WP	Jul 19 02:37
seller_liar	the " new" trolls have find new ways to disrupt information	Jul 19 02:38
schestowitz	SO we'll evolve	Jul 19 02:38
seller_liar	Like "low voting" and other things	Jul 19 02:38
schestowitz	seller_liar: I can disable comment voting	Jul 19 02:38
schestowitz	Or limit it	Jul 19 02:38
seller_liar	I 'm not specialist in troll tactics	Jul 19 02:38
schestowitz	brb	Jul 19 02:38
schestowitz	let me finish upgrading	Jul 19 02:38
seller_liar	yes but in slashdot alot of trroll use low voting	Jul 19 02:38
ThistleWeb	another way would be to disable voting for everyone apart from a few trusted admins, then let them read the comments and vote as they see fit	Jul 19 02:39
splosion	I don't really pay any attention to the voting system, though. Do many people? It isn't as if low-rated comments are hidden	Jul 19 02:40
seller_liar	yes, I know , but we need to put in "common troll tactics"	Jul 19 02:40
ThistleWeb	splosion: I don't either	Jul 19 02:41
splosion	be careful with censorship, though. Don't let the place become an echo chamber. I detest censorship, but I agree the trolling on the recent articles is rather absurd	Jul 19 02:41
ThistleWeb	another way to look at it, is that because of the astroturfers tactics, usually a comment which is voted down has more truth to it	Jul 19 02:41
splosion	I see that too	Jul 19 02:41
ThistleWeb	to try and discredit it	Jul 19 02:42
ThistleWeb	yeah, having admins doing the voting does mean censorship, I thought about that after I suggested it myself. It's not an ideal suggestion	Jul 19 02:43
ThistleWeb	even if it is censorship for a good cause. "good" is subjective	Jul 19 02:43
ThistleWeb	it's also what EVERYONE who practces it claims	Jul 19 02:44
splosion	I saw a comment on reddit about Mono and patents which was pretty good. He listed a few of the threats, and said, "You can mod me down if any of this is true." Knowing full well that the downvoters know it's true, and they don't like people drawing attention to it	Jul 19 02:44
ThistleWeb	lol	Jul 19 02:44
seller_liar	grey geek explain another troll tactic	Jul 19 02:47
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seller_liar	I have a suggestion. Allowing these MS shills to share the same threads as civil folks gives them too much front page space. That is precisely how they hijacked Canopus. Just like DELL and the other PC OEMs were/are forced to keep hardware featuring Linux to back pages or face get their “air supply cut off” by Microsoft not funding ad revenues, you should move obvious TE posts to another page,	Jul 19 02:47
splosion	http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8zt90/mono_microsoft_community_promise_inadequate_says/c0ayl3y here	Jul 19 02:47
seller_liar	troll posts a lot do disrupt ads	Jul 19 02:48
splosion	If it were my decision, I'd have a script that replaces the contents of the shill comments with "I AM COLOSSAL FAGGOT btw my IP address is 79.129.250.52" Or at least append it on to the end of each comment.	Jul 19 02:51
schestowitz	splosion: watch your language, please	Jul 19 02:51
splosion	sorry	Jul 19 02:51
schestowitz	You're hurting our cause	Jul 19 02:52
splosion	luckily for you it's not up to me	Jul 19 02:52
schestowitz	Thanks for the understanding	Jul 19 02:52
cubezzz	I've been watching microsoft for a long time	Jul 19 02:52
cubezzz	I know what they're like	Jul 19 02:53
seller_liar	another troll tactic is the use of sterotypes	Jul 19 02:53
seller_liar	for example linux = communism	Jul 19 02:53
schestowitz	OK, all my plugins are enabled now	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	This is brilliant. It ssems as though with 12 or so plugins we made a non-lossy upgrade and everything is compatible after I fetched some plugin updates	Jul 19 02:54
cubezzz	I'm a bit worried that all the linux pda's seemed to have disappeared :-/	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	Just Linux? :-)	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	Look at WIndows	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	PDAs die	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	There are surveys that show this	Jul 19 02:54
tessier	cubezzz: PDA's in general have disappeared. Replaced by smart phones, iphones, etc.	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	Since 2006	Jul 19 02:54
schestowitz	phones vs pda	Jul 19 02:55
schestowitz	Smartphones rather	Jul 19 02:55
tessier	There never really were many Linux PDA's anyway.	Jul 19 02:55
cubezzz	that's true	Jul 19 02:55
tessier	Palm never made one. The Pre is too little too late.	Jul 19 02:55
tessier	iPhone kicked their ass.	Jul 19 02:55
schestowitz	Dell killed its windows PDAs in 2007 IIRC	Jul 19 02:55
tessier	I don't even run the Palm mailing list anymore.	Jul 19 02:55
schestowitz	And it was among the last out there	Jul 19 02:55
tessier	It got hosed up and I never fixed it.	Jul 19 02:55
cubezzz	I guess everyone wants a cell phone? NOT :)	Jul 19 02:55
cubezzz	at least I don't	Jul 19 02:56
schestowitz	tessier: I used to doa lot in Palm USNET NGs	Jul 19 02:56
schestowitz	Including stats	Jul 19 02:56
schestowitz	But I quit around 2007	Jul 19 02:56
schestowitz	Lack of interest.. not just me	Jul 19 02:56
schestowitz	My Palm still works well with jpilot on Linux	Jul 19 02:56
cubezzz	yeah there's lots of iphones around, seemingly	Jul 19 02:57
schestowitz	twitter: thanks for the edits	Jul 19 02:58
cubezzz	I just want a small pda to program on	Jul 19 02:58
twitter	no problem, it is soothing.	Jul 19 02:58
splosion	hrmm, the formatting is a bit strange on the common troll tactics wiki	Jul 19 03:01
cubezzz	Nokia N800 looks interesting	Jul 19 03:05
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Edgar	I just did further research, it appears that software patents slow down innovation :\|	Jul 19 03:17
Diablo-D3	slow down?	Jul 19 03:17
Diablo-D3	dude, it kills it	Jul 19 03:17
Edgar	yes	Jul 19 03:18
seller_liar	another ideea is create a chronological line of bad history of microsoft	Jul 19 03:18
cubezzz	I thought microsoft was bad in the windows 2.0 days :)	Jul 19 03:19
seller_liar	yes , but using a chronlogical line is very good to document facts	Jul 19 03:19
cubezzz	in fact I was surprised it took over the way it did	Jul 19 03:19
seller_liar	and then , people will adding more and more information in chronological line	Jul 19 03:20
seller_liar	facts like obama presentation using silverblight, steve "egg" ballmer and others	Jul 19 03:20
cubezzz	I got something you might be interested in:	Jul 19 03:21
cubezzz	http://maxhost.org/cubeman/ms_dirtytricks.txt	Jul 19 03:21
seller_liar	put in the wiki	Jul 19 03:21
schestowitz	Hi, Edgar	Jul 19 03:21
schestowitz	Any new links?	Jul 19 03:21
seller_liar	mediawiki have a plugin for drawing chronological lines?	Jul 19 03:22
schestowitz	Maybe	Jul 19 03:22
cubezzz	Amiga should have won	Jul 19 03:22
schestowitz	I have mediawiki access issues today... their site isn't functioning	Jul 19 03:22
seller_liar	no problem roy , This is only ideas.There's no need to put ideas in action now	Jul 19 03:23
cubezzz	I was looking for some vid of Bill Gates at the doj trial but I couldn't find anything	Jul 19 03:23
cubezzz	anyway, most people know MS = bad :)	Jul 19 03:25
seller_liar	another idea is put status of mono infection in distros	Jul 19 03:25
seller_liar	for example list the number of mono packages each distro have	Jul 19 03:25
seller_liar	and put some history about mono infections	Jul 19 03:26
Edgar	hmmm... i wonder though	Jul 19 03:27
Edgar	Is mac really a threat? I was just reading that cubezzz but, didn't Microsoft help apple once? :/	Jul 19 03:28
cubezzz	Edgar: yes, microsoft gave apple a lot of money	Jul 19 03:28
cubezzz	for stock I think	Jul 19 03:28
Edgar	yes	Jul 19 03:28
schestowitz	Apple and Microsoft work together in areas	Jul 19 03:29
schestowitz	OOXML for example	Jul 19 03:29
Diablo-D3	dont go trying to say apple is in microsoft's pocket	Jul 19 03:29
cubezzz	mac isn't that good !=FOSS	Jul 19 03:29
Edgar	>_>	Jul 19 03:29
schestowitz	Apple likes software patents and DRM... media format and stuff...	Jul 19 03:29
Edgar	Hmm	Jul 19 03:29
Diablo-D3	apple and microsoft just have a long and complex history together	Jul 19 03:29
schestowitz	YEs	Jul 19 03:29
Edgar	I wasn't suggesting that (yet) >_> I was just getting suspicious and haven't really found anything on the web about why MS would support apple :/	Jul 19 03:30
Diablo-D3	Edgar: historical reasons	Jul 19 03:30
cubezzz	cover all the bases	Jul 19 03:30
cubezzz	get money from every platform	Jul 19 03:30
Diablo-D3	microsoft was started as a company to produce software for apple platforms	Jul 19 03:30
Edgar	hm	Jul 19 03:30
Diablo-D3	bill gates for a very short time was an apple employee	Jul 19 03:31
Diablo-D3	but bill and steve's egos cant both fit in the same room at the same time	Jul 19 03:31
Edgar	LOL	Jul 19 03:31
cubezzz	well, altair was the start :)	Jul 19 03:31
schestowitz	I'd have to check what's new in WordPress 2.8	Jul 19 03:32
cubezzz	BASIC for Altair	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	bill promised apple software, however	Jul 19 03:32
schestowitz	I hardly see any differences	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	eventually they did get that	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	such as msie and office	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	but apple is very much independant	Jul 19 03:32
schestowitz	I'm also installing new software on it	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	I also believe apple is an important allie to have	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	they are pro foss	Jul 19 03:32
cubezzz	well, at least it avoids total mono-culture	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	being pro foss doesnt mean you're anti closed source	Jul 19 03:32
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: heeeeeee mono culture	Jul 19 03:32
cubezzz	so we have windows, mac and Linux	Jul 19 03:33
cubezzz	I paid for my Amiga 500 rom willingly :)	Jul 19 03:33
Diablo-D3	but yeah	Jul 19 03:34
Diablo-D3	apple contributes a lot to foss	Jul 19 03:34
seller_liar	apple is not friend of opensource	Jul 19 03:35
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: thats not true at all	Jul 19 03:35
seller_liar	if someday apple need to destroy foss, it will	Jul 19 03:36
Diablo-D3	of course	Jul 19 03:36
Diablo-D3	but thats the day after microsoft closes it's doors forever	Jul 19 03:36
seller_liar	apple uses exclusive tactives to use only apple 's equipment	Jul 19 03:36
cubezzz	was BSD before Linux?	Jul 19 03:36
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: yes	Jul 19 03:36
seller_liar	drm , block iphone	Jul 19 03:36
Diablo-D3	apple does contribute back to many foss projects	Jul 19 03:37
Diablo-D3	they also run many of their own	Jul 19 03:37
seller_liar	this is a trues anti-competitive and anti-cooperative tactic	Jul 19 03:37
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: not at all	Jul 19 03:37
Diablo-D3	apple just retains control over their own platform	Jul 19 03:37
cubezzz	interesting that Linux caught on more that BSD	Jul 19 03:37
Diablo-D3	they dont try to destroy other platforms	Jul 19 03:37
seller_liar	apple blocks itunes for every mobile device	Jul 19 03:37
cubezzz	that=than	Jul 19 03:37
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: erm, most commercial unixes are derived from either bsd or the original at&t unix	Jul 19 03:38
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: because itunes is their platform	Jul 19 03:38
seller_liar	apple is not different than microsoft	Jul 19 03:38
cubezzz	surely apple is a _bit_ less evil :)	Jul 19 03:38
Diablo-D3	apple is very different than microsoft: apple actually has a hardware platform people want to buy	Jul 19 03:38
seller_liar	closed platform ,closed software and everythinf]g	Jul 19 03:39
Diablo-D3	not closed at all	Jul 19 03:39
Diablo-D3	please, a tad less fud	Jul 19 03:39
seller_liar	this is not a progress , this is helping apple to gain more power and give more powers to proprietary hardware and software	Jul 19 03:39
cubezzz	when did bsd go open, or was it always open?	Jul 19 03:39
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: it was always open	Jul 19 03:40
cubezzz	aha	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: the first bsd had the bsd license	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	the four clause version, but one nonetheless	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: btw, thats not true	Jul 19 03:40
seller_liar	if apple gain more power, then apple can destroy every company of world	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: nothing apple has unique hardware anymore	Jul 19 03:40
Edgar	no	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	they no longer use PPC for their desktops and laptops and server	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	its generic x86 now	Jul 19 03:40
cubezzz	all the way back to 1977?	Jul 19 03:40
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: yup	Jul 19 03:40
cubezzz	wow	Jul 19 03:40
seller_liar	because only apple knows about the hardware ,software can run only in apple hardware	Jul 19 03:41
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: so?	Jul 19 03:41
Diablo-D3	also, the iphone is not unique, android phones are built basically the same way	Jul 19 03:41
seller_liar	yes ,they use x86 , but blocks all software using drm	Jul 19 03:41
Diablo-D3	its a generic embedded arm setup with some nifty chips plugged in and a multitouch screen	Jul 19 03:41
seller_liar	and if people tries to block , apple call DMCA to destroy competition	Jul 19 03:41
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: where are you getting this DRM shit?	Jul 19 03:41
seller_liar	block = unblock	Jul 19 03:42
Diablo-D3	the OSX on non-apple hardware check is a) very easy to remove, b) not DRM	Jul 19 03:42
seller_liar	apple forbids unsigned iphone apps	Jul 19 03:42
Diablo-D3	apple can forbid unsigned iphone apps and effect no one	Jul 19 03:42
seller_liar	apple tries to block unsigned hardware used in imac	Jul 19 03:42
Diablo-D3	its _their_ platform	Jul 19 03:42
Diablo-D3	they have a right to make sure everything on their platform meets a minimum of awesomeness	Jul 19 03:43
Diablo-D3	thats their entire selling point, they _should_ protect it	Jul 19 03:43
Diablo-D3	Im surprised they dont also do it for osx	Jul 19 03:43
seller_liar	yes	Jul 19 03:44
seller_liar	People should not use iphone os	Jul 19 03:44
Diablo-D3	if you dont like how apple does it, then DONT USE IT	Jul 19 03:44
seller_liar	it's better to use another os	Jul 19 03:44
Diablo-D3	apple _doesnt_ try to destroy other platforms	Jul 19 03:44
Diablo-D3	in fact, they do much to enhance them	Jul 19 03:44
Diablo-D3	apple's fundamental strategy works different than microsoft	Jul 19 03:44
Diablo-D3	steve jobs is the world's greatest salesman, bill gates is the world's greatest businessman	Jul 19 03:45
Diablo-D3	bill goes around and makes sure microsoft is your only choice by buying out or destroying the competition....	Jul 19 03:45
cubezzz	hmmm	Jul 19 03:45
Diablo-D3	steve just convinces you apple is the only choice and leaves everyone else alone	Jul 19 03:45
ThistleWeb	apple enhances other platforms? like the palm pre with it's itunes support?	Jul 19 03:45
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: webkit, for one	Jul 19 03:46
ThistleWeb	I guess removing itunes is "enhancing" to some	Jul 19 03:46
Edgar	>_>	Jul 19 03:46
Diablo-D3	and no, the palm pre hacked itunes support	Jul 19 03:46
ThistleWeb	ahh yes khtml	Jul 19 03:46
Diablo-D3	apple never supported the plam pre	Jul 19 03:46
ThistleWeb	you said they enhanced	Jul 19 03:46
ThistleWeb	not supported	Jul 19 03:46
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: they didnt enhance the palm pre	Jul 19 03:46
Diablo-D3	palm did	Jul 19 03:46
Diablo-D3	apple didnt like it	Jul 19 03:46
ThistleWeb	they intentionally broke the palm pre itunes support	Jul 19 03:46
Edgar	i don't like the iphone or the ipod, i'd prefer a cowon, or iaudio, or something else >_> iphone, i just don't care for it	Jul 19 03:46
Diablo-D3	they intentionally fixed a bug.	Jul 19 03:47
ThistleWeb	is that aople enhancing?	Jul 19 03:47
Aondo	i think what apple is doing with the osx stuff isnt too bad for foss community, even tho it's not ideal, what i mean is that i think it's good with more competition with each other, and with the windows systems.	Jul 19 03:47
seller_liar	apple uses the power of foss to gain more power in proprietary platform	Jul 19 03:47
Diablo-D3	if palm wanted itunes support, they very much could have gotten it	Jul 19 03:47
ThistleWeb	yes, the bug was that a non-apple hardware could use itunes	Jul 19 03:47
seller_liar	webkit, cups and others are only to help apple in proprietary application	Jul 19 03:47
Aondo	the more people use different system, the better it is for open standards, and free software with it	Jul 19 03:47
Diablo-D3	they never will now, however	Jul 19 03:47
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: what I dont get though	Jul 19 03:47
Diablo-D3	is why palm cared about itunes	Jul 19 03:47
ThistleWeb	when palm find a patch for it, apple will break it again as they always do	Jul 19 03:47
Diablo-D3	itunes isnt exactly that great of a music player interface	Jul 19 03:48
Diablo-D3	and itunes is no longer drm, so the palm can play back AAC files anyhow	Jul 19 03:48
seller_liar	it's not just forbids the user to do anything with iphone	Jul 19 03:48
ThistleWeb	it's only a bug if you buy the fantasy PR line Apple spin	Jul 19 03:48
ThistleWeb	the rest of us see it for what it is	Jul 19 03:48
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: its a bug... itunes detected a non-ipod device as an ipod	Jul 19 03:48
Aondo	Diablo-D3 itunes doesnt have water marks either?	Jul 19 03:48
Diablo-D3	Aondo: it does, but it doesnt effect playback	Jul 19 03:48
Aondo	ok	Jul 19 03:48
Diablo-D3	theres no longer any DRM on new itunes files	Jul 19 03:49
seller_liar	apple products are anti-ethical	Jul 19 03:49
ThistleWeb	so requiring itunes to sync is not DRN?	Jul 19 03:49
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: huh?	Jul 19 03:49
ThistleWeb	DRM*	Jul 19 03:49
Diablo-D3	you drag and drop files	Jul 19 03:49
seller_liar	tries to gain money stealing "rights from people"	Jul 19 03:49
Diablo-D3	you plug any music player in, and it appears as a USB Mass Storage device	Jul 19 03:50
ThistleWeb	your controlling what apps a user can use to sync with the device	Jul 19 03:50
cubezzz	I think puretracks still has drm, so there's still some drm music	Jul 19 03:50
seller_liar	and uses opensource like "free work"	Jul 19 03:50
ThistleWeb	rather than letting them chose their own	Jul 19 03:50
Diablo-D3	you drag the files from your itunes library to your device	Jul 19 03:50
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: but why is palm allowing people to use itunes?	Jul 19 03:50
Diablo-D3	its not a good app, there are better	Jul 19 03:50
ThistleWeb	so why wont apple let people use the better apps?	Jul 19 03:51
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: huh?	Jul 19 03:51
ThistleWeb	it's DRM.....about control	Jul 19 03:51
seller_liar	buying iphone you help a company to control our society	Jul 19 03:51
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: wtf are you talking about?	Jul 19 03:51
ThistleWeb	there are better apps than itunes	Jul 19 03:51
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: I can take a song I bought off itunes and play it ANYWHERE	Jul 19 03:51
Diablo-D3	apple doesnt stop me	Jul 19 03:51
Diablo-D3	they removed drm for their entire library	Jul 19 03:52
ThistleWeb	yet apple will keep modifying their stuff when any other app works with their hardware to force people into using THEIR software	Jul 19 03:52
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: ....	Jul 19 03:52
ThistleWeb	this is DRM	Jul 19 03:52
Diablo-D3	no its not	Jul 19 03:52
Diablo-D3	DRM is a software mechanism to manage rights of a data file.	Jul 19 03:52
cubezzz	ok, can a linux user use itunes?	Jul 19 03:52
ThistleWeb	Apple (the rights holder) is restricting the user's choice of apps	Jul 19 03:52
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: the songs? yes.	Jul 19 03:52
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: the software? doesnt work right in wine yet	Jul 19 03:52
*cubezzz nods		Jul 19 03:53
seller_liar	no	Jul 19 03:53
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: yes, they're restricting itunes sync with apple players	Jul 19 03:53
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: they're _not_ restricting itunes usage by itself	Jul 19 03:53
Edgar	>_> seller_liar	Jul 19 03:53
Edgar	you mean	Jul 19 03:53
Edgar	UNETHICAL	Jul 19 03:53
ThistleWeb	when it gets close to working in wine, do you think Apple will change the habit of a lifetime and let it pass?	Jul 19 03:53
Aondo	can a gnu/linux user, use itunes with free software, only? - i like this question better :D	Jul 19 03:53
*Edgar slaps seller_liar! D:		Jul 19 03:53
Edgar	LEARN TO SPELL D:	Jul 19 03:53
ThistleWeb	or will there be another "bug fix" which changes it	Jul 19 03:53
Edgar	wait you spelled it right	Jul 19 03:53
Diablo-D3	Aondo: not yet, but theres other music stores too	Jul 19 03:53
*Edgar facepalms		Jul 19 03:53
Diablo-D3	amazon works entirely through firefox	Jul 19 03:54
Diablo-D3	and the files arent drmed, they're normal mp3s	Jul 19 03:54
cubezzz	I'm using puretracks in Canada currently	Jul 19 03:54
Diablo-D3	they're not bad quality either	Jul 19 03:54
oiaohm	Two major methods.	Jul 19 03:54
oiaohm	DRM or Watermark.	Jul 19 03:54
Diablo-D3	watermarking is totally okay	Jul 19 03:55
Diablo-D3	it identifies who the file was sold to	Jul 19 03:55
oiaohm	Personally I prefer Watermarking.	Jul 19 03:55
Diablo-D3	watermarking can be done in ways that have nothing to do with the audio stream	Jul 19 03:55
oiaohm	It only really targets thoses who do wrong.	Jul 19 03:55
*ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))		Jul 19 03:55
oiaohm	Strongest for tracking are embeded in the stream.	Jul 19 03:55
seller_liar	sorry edgar	Jul 19 03:55
Diablo-D3	everyones like OH LOL THEY MIX SHIT IN THAT SOUNDS LIKE NOISE BUT BLAH BLAH BLAH	Jul 19 03:56
Aondo	oiaohm, so if you "hack" my system and get my files, water marking will help punish you?	Jul 19 03:56
Diablo-D3	no, its just an idv3 tag most of the time	Jul 19 03:56
Diablo-D3	Aondo: no, it'd prove you're intp piracy	Jul 19 03:56
Diablo-D3	why would you let anyone steal your shit?	Jul 19 03:56
oiaohm	I have used watermarking in business printers to track person who printered files.	Jul 19 03:56
cubezzz	ok, you bought the cd, it got stratched up, then you download a replacment ... :-0	Jul 19 03:57
oiaohm	To find who was leaking information.	Jul 19 03:57
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: why are you using the original?	Jul 19 03:57
Aondo	Diablo-D3, well.. nothing on internet is 100% safe, so if someone copies my files, without my permission.. i would get the blame most likely	Jul 19 03:57
Diablo-D3	Aondo: and you should get the blame	Jul 19 03:57
cubezzz	Diablo-D3, I'm not, just a hypothetical there	Jul 19 03:57
oiaohm	It tells were the leak is.	Jul 19 03:57
Diablo-D3	cubezzz: yes, you can buy another copy.	Jul 19 03:57
ThistleWeb	Aondo: relax, Apple ain't very letigious ROFL	Jul 19 03:57
Aondo	:)	Jul 19 03:58
Diablo-D3	you _can_ 'pirate' another copy legally, btw	Jul 19 03:58
oiaohm	Would you not want to know that you had a information leaking Aondo?	Jul 19 03:58
Diablo-D3	its not piracy since you own a license	Jul 19 03:58
Diablo-D3	but heres the fun part	Jul 19 03:58
Diablo-D3	just dont use the original	Jul 19 03:58
cubezzz	ah :)	Jul 19 03:58
ThistleWeb	or dont buy from itunes	Jul 19 03:58
Diablo-D3	all the CDs I own I rip then put on the shelf never to be touched again	Jul 19 03:58
Edgar	I hate DRM	Jul 19 03:58
Aondo	oiaohm, i guess i would, but to be honest i'm not sure how the process would be, if i got contacted becaus my watermarked files got spread around :P	Jul 19 03:59
ThistleWeb	yeah, so do Apple (if you buy the PR)	Jul 19 03:59
Diablo-D3	you know whats wrong with the whole FOSS movement?	Jul 19 03:59
Diablo-D3	you have people who are very most honestly out of their fucking minds	Jul 19 03:59
ThistleWeb	except they dont count all the vendor lockin as DRM	Jul 19 03:59
Edgar	>_>	Jul 19 03:59
Diablo-D3	"EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FREE! MONEY IS EVIL! SHARE EVERYTHING!"	Jul 19 03:59
Diablo-D3	Well guess what guys, the world isn't a giant commune.	Jul 19 04:00
Edgar	Yeah, that is silly...	Jul 19 04:00
cubezzz	what, we got Stallman, he's pretty normal, what are you talking about :)	Jul 19 04:00
Edgar	Free as in freedom, not free beer :/	Jul 19 04:00
Diablo-D3	Quit being fucking hippies, get out of your mom's basement, and get a fucking job.	Jul 19 04:00
seller_liar	share knowledge must be permitted	Jul 19 04:00
Diablo-D3	Apple has a right to do whatever they fucking want	Jul 19 04:00
Diablo-D3	No one is putting a gun to your head to do business with them	Jul 19 04:00
Diablo-D3	they're not the only mass retailer of music	Jul 19 04:00
cubezzz	that's true	Jul 19 04:01
seller_liar	if you won t share ,simple don t tell to anyone	Jul 19 04:01
Edgar	Hmm, the thing that bothers me about the freedom idea is how do you make money from that :/	Jul 19 04:01
ThistleWeb	Diablo-D3: yep, thats the capitalist spirit, go Madoff....he had the right to do whatever he wanted right?	Jul 19 04:01
cubezzz	there are ways to make money	Jul 19 04:01
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: less trolling, kthx	Jul 19 04:01
ThistleWeb	laws only count if you're the one making them	Jul 19 04:01
oiaohm	Thing is Aondo if you are not gulity of being the pirate you would have a thief stealing stuff from you. So would be interested to find out who because they most likely nicked other things from you as well.	Jul 19 04:01
cubezzz	even Stallman needs _some_ money	Jul 19 04:02
seller_liar	you don t need make money from software	Jul 19 04:02
oiaohm	Hopefully not credit cards Aondo	Jul 19 04:02
cubezzz	I've made money from Linux installs and Linux laptops	Jul 19 04:02
Diablo-D3	and btw, Aondo, if someone is leeching shit from you and did so without permission, file a police report	Jul 19 04:02
Aondo	oiaohm, i dont see it as stealing tho	Jul 19 04:02
Edgar	I always wondered how stallman lives his life :/	Jul 19 04:02
Diablo-D3	they dont have to do anything, just let you file it	Jul 19 04:02
Aondo	Diablo-D3, i'm just asking, since i dont know what the copyright owner would really do, if they found traces of anybodies watermarked files	Jul 19 04:03
seller_liar	proprietary software cannot live because it steals knowledge	Jul 19 04:03
Diablo-D3	Aondo: bitch loudly	Jul 19 04:04
Diablo-D3	which is why you need the police report	Jul 19 04:04
Edgar	>_> 1.) Most people don't look at the source code, they don't steal knowledge, the issues I see (Atm) are patents and innovation being slowed down or killed by that :/	Jul 19 04:04
seller_liar	for example , you cannot do a clone of windows even if you prove you do everything alone	Jul 19 04:04
Aondo	so should i file a report, for them copying some files, getting into my system... or both? :)	Jul 19 04:04
Diablo-D3	seller_liar: not true	Jul 19 04:04
Diablo-D3	you can do a clean room impl of windowsd	Jul 19 04:04
cubezzz	in Canada the police wouldn't do anything about file sharing I don't think	Jul 19 04:04
Diablo-D3	Aondo: both	Jul 19 04:04
Diablo-D3	Aondo: the cops dont have to actually do any work, just let you file the report	Jul 19 04:05
oiaohm	Wrong cubezzz	Jul 19 04:05
seller_liar	innovation is not important	Jul 19 04:05
oiaohm	It depends on what is being shared.	Jul 19 04:05
seller_liar	Diablo-D3: you can use windows logo?	Jul 19 04:05
Edgar	:/	Jul 19 04:05
cubezzz	cite a court case then	Jul 19 04:05
Aondo	Diablo-D3, so if i dont file any report at all, becaus i didnt know or whatever reason.. i am to blame, without anyother proof? in the eyes of the copyright holder i mean.	Jul 19 04:05
*Edgar brain implodes unto itself from what seller_liar just said.		Jul 19 04:05
seller_liar	innovation is not important	Jul 19 04:06
*Edgar brain implodes unto itself from what seller_liar just said.		Jul 19 04:06
oiaohm	Aondo: files you don't create you are basically the care taker for.	Jul 19 04:06
seller_liar	ethics is the most important thing of world	Jul 19 04:06
cubezzz	well, maybe if someone was file sharing the windows source code that would get them in trouble	Jul 19 04:06
schestowitz	Climate Follies: Bankrolling Dirty Power in Developing Countries http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/010145.html	Jul 19 04:06
cubezzz	but music sharing?	Jul 19 04:06
Diablo-D3	Aondo: if you leave your door unlocked and someone steals your shit, yes, its your fault	Jul 19 04:06
oiaohm	So Aondo if they get stolen from you and you don't report it. It is still you problem.	Jul 19 04:06
seller_liar	innovation can destroy the society	Jul 19 04:07
Diablo-D3	Aondo: having a file server that is directly accessible from the net is the same thing as having an unlocked door	Jul 19 04:07
*Edgar brain implodes unto itself from what seller_liar just said.		Jul 19 04:07
seller_liar	innovation is only a tool	Jul 19 04:07
Aondo	oiaohm i'm sorry, stolen? you dont steal files, you copy them.	Jul 19 04:07
seller_liar	the society does not need new tools	Jul 19 04:07
seller_liar	the society need ethics	Jul 19 04:07
ThistleWeb	the "locking your door" analogy only applies when the regular Joe has the IT skillz of a pro	Jul 19 04:07
Diablo-D3	the only thing DRM did for music is force the player to also have a valid copy of the license	Jul 19 04:07
Diablo-D3	it actually protected you legally	Jul 19 04:07
Diablo-D3	no one could steal your music	Jul 19 04:07
Aondo	Diablo-D3, you can allways break a locked door	Jul 19 04:07
Diablo-D3	they could take the file, but the license is still yours	Jul 19 04:08
oiaohm	Steal is someone breaking you password and downloading them without you permission. Not exactly just coping Aondo	Jul 19 04:08
Diablo-D3	now that DRM is basically dead, its up to _you_ to enforce that only you use your license	Jul 19 04:08
Aondo	heck... i've seen people go thrue the roof.. to get stuff :P	Jul 19 04:08
Diablo-D3	with power comes responsibility	Jul 19 04:08
oiaohm	Exactly someone nicks your computer with other peoples copyrighted works on it you should report it.	Jul 19 04:09
oiaohm	By reporting what has happened its not your legal problem any more.	Jul 19 04:09
Aondo	Diablo-D3, DRM isnt dead in my country thought, i have a hard time playing some dvds.. havent even tried the bluerays :P	Jul 19 04:09
Diablo-D3	Aondo: region locking is basically dead	Jul 19 04:10
cubezzz	yeah, I wouldn't say DRM is totally dead	Jul 19 04:10
Diablo-D3	and theres no region locked blurays yet	Jul 19 04:10
Edgar	Blurays do have DRM though	Jul 19 04:10
oiaohm	Region locking is illegal in australia.	Jul 19 04:10
Aondo	Diablo-D3, i'm talking crypting.. and decrypting.	Jul 19 04:10
Diablo-D3	blurays have drm, this is true	Jul 19 04:10
oiaohm	Bluray copy protection has not been tested in a court of law.	Jul 19 04:10
Edgar	which is why linux can't play them too well yet ftrom what I Read	Jul 19 04:10
oiaohm	Linux can play them Edgar	Jul 19 04:11
Edgar	ALthough it has been cracked	Jul 19 04:11
Diablo-D3	dvd drm is dead though	Jul 19 04:11
Diablo-D3	has been for years	Jul 19 04:11
oiaohm	But is evil.	Jul 19 04:11
Edgar	I Said not too well	Jul 19 04:11
oiaohm	Windows Bluray play program in wine.	Jul 19 04:11
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: thats shitty since I only use mplayer	Jul 19 04:11
Diablo-D3	mplayer can decrypt some blurays	Jul 19 04:11
Diablo-D3	but nothing with newer keys	Jul 19 04:11
oiaohm	Some blurays are not DRMed.	Jul 19 04:12
Aondo	not an ideal thing, to fight with drm, just to have some fun with a movie	Jul 19 04:12
Diablo-D3	I actually wish they'd just have a java program that does the crypt	Jul 19 04:12
oiaohm	I wish it was required to label what ones are and are not.	Jul 19 04:12
Edgar	i find i funny the more the industry uses DRM the more people fight back	Jul 19 04:12
Edgar	and the more they lose D:	Jul 19 04:12
Diablo-D3	bd+ encryption would be easily faked with a virtual machine	Jul 19 04:12
Aondo	Edgar you mean the industry lose?	Jul 19 04:13
oiaohm	They don't really lose that is the problem Edgar	Jul 19 04:13
oiaohm	People still buy releated products.	Jul 19 04:13
Diablo-D3	actually they did lose	Jul 19 04:13
Diablo-D3	I buy and play dvds on linux :D	Jul 19 04:13
Aondo	Diablo-D3 you are not needed to use any special libs to do so? :P	Jul 19 04:14
Diablo-D3	nope	Jul 19 04:14
Diablo-D3	I dont need decss anymore, its built into mplayer now	Jul 19 04:14
Aondo	so if i gave you any movie from lets say disney... you would have no problem playing it. without any special libs to do some decrypting?	Jul 19 04:14
Edgar	Another thing, I Know some people who really don't give a damn about DRM and are completely ALOOF to it c_C; its the only thing that bothers me though ONLY THING	Jul 19 04:14
cubezzz	hmm, I think Sony did some weird stuff with DVDs	Jul 19 04:14
Diablo-D3	Aondo: I have potc on dvd, Ive watched it on my computer	Jul 19 04:14
cubezzz	VHS had macrovision	Jul 19 04:15
Aondo	Diablo-D3, i've seen many dvds on my box too, but never without libs... well except big buck bunny and a few other	Jul 19 04:15
schestowitz	OK, two more blogs (WP) upgraded succuessfully	Jul 19 04:15
oiaohm	macrovision tech is still used to block recording out of some dvd players.	Jul 19 04:15
seller_liar	The only thing I know is	Jul 19 04:16
seller_liar	Apple and microsoft try to gain monopoly	Jul 19 04:16
seller_liar	apple uses restrictions and microsoft uses destruction	Jul 19 04:16
oiaohm	Apple is interesting.	Jul 19 04:17
seller_liar	apple and microsoft are not different	Jul 19 04:17
oiaohm	Apple was one of the first to offer water marked files with DRM ones.	Jul 19 04:17
oiaohm	With a price difference.	Jul 19 04:17
seller_liar	both companies have evil Inside	Jul 19 04:17
Aondo	seller_liar, not gonna protest on you there :D but i think and hope, that the bigger apple and the foss community gets the more people demand open standards worldwide	Jul 19 04:17
ThistleWeb	MS at least dont control the hardware (aside from bullying vendors)	Jul 19 04:17
schestowitz	The personal blog has just been updated too. All that's required now is that I go around the panels, pages, categories, etc etc and check that everything is in tact. It's not possible to check every page individually, but by checking a large number of pages one gets a sample of whether there is any bug as the result of the upgrade or not. Is there anything to automate it?	Jul 19 04:18
seller_liar	but use power to destroy competition	Jul 19 04:18
seller_liar	open standards is different of free software	Jul 19 04:18
schestowitz	It's always hard to knock what to you systematically	Jul 19 04:18
ThistleWeb	Apple control both the hardware and software on their platforms, which makes it easy for them to restrict, with no excuses when stuff don't "just work"	Jul 19 04:18
seller_liar	we need free software and open standards ,	Jul 19 04:18
schestowitz	I',m going to bed now. If anyone spot something funny in BN, please holler :-D	Jul 19 04:18
seller_liar	open standards only is not enough	Jul 19 04:19
Aondo	seller_liar, yes, but with open standards, free software lives easier	Jul 19 04:19
ThistleWeb	cya schestowitz	Jul 19 04:19
schestowitz	Let's see if mediawiki can be patched too	Jul 19 04:19
seller_liar	bye roy	Jul 19 04:19
schestowitz	Media wiki svn has been down since the morning	Jul 19 04:20
oiaohm	Openstandards allow open source and free software to interface.	Jul 19 04:20
wallclimber	good night all...it's been interesting	Jul 19 04:20
Aondo	:)	Jul 19 04:20
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Jul 19 04:20
oiaohm	I am not foolish enough to say there is no place for closed source..	Jul 19 04:21
oiaohm	There is a place for all types of software.	Jul 19 04:21
oiaohm	We just need a fair competition system.	Jul 19 04:21
ThistleWeb	you mean stuff that works and stuff that dont?	Jul 19 04:21
ThistleWeb	:P	Jul 19 04:21
oiaohm	Every thing should have a fair chance of working.	Jul 19 04:21
oiaohm	So that groups with poor programmers or software quality get a chance to die.	Jul 19 04:22
seller_liar	but we need more free software than proprietary software in a proportion of 80-20	Jul 19 04:22
oiaohm	I set no percentages.	Jul 19 04:22
oiaohm	If 100 percent proprietary using company can interface with a 100 percent open source using company without issues I would be happy.	Jul 19 04:23
oiaohm	Then people can freely choose the tools they want to use.	Jul 19 04:24
Aondo	non freesoftware will probably lag behind unless the adept to a faster moving community	Jul 19 04:24
oiaohm	I am about freedom in real meaning of the word.	Jul 19 04:25
oiaohm	Anything that is restricting a persons freedom to make selections is not good.	Jul 19 04:25
Aondo	oiaohm, i find it quite ironic that in the "land of the free" people needs to be reminded that free software means freedom	Jul 19 04:26
oiaohm	Not exactly.	Jul 19 04:26
oiaohm	Open standards without restrictions of like patents. Gives freedom.	Jul 19 04:27
tessier	schestowitz: /home is 99% full	Jul 19 04:27
oiaohm	Free software without open standards can be basically useless.	Jul 19 04:27
oiaohm	Defacto standards is one of the biggest undermines to freedom.	Jul 19 04:28
Aondo	atleast i hope my bed is free at this hour. and not taken	Jul 19 04:28
Aondo	oiaohm, agreed, but isnt that kind of standard maybe not becaus it was there first	Jul 19 04:29
oiaohm	.doc defecto standard for word processing was not the first document format.	Jul 19 04:30
tessier	Word Perfect was quite popular in business before MS Word. It was the first de-facto word processor document format.	Jul 19 04:31
cubezzz	no one remembers wordstar? :)	Jul 19 04:31
oiaohm	Most defacto standards are not documented .	Jul 19 04:31
tessier	I do	Jul 19 04:31
oiaohm	So other people cannot created competing programs that work perfectly.	Jul 19 04:31
Aondo	maybe "first" is the wrong way to put it hehe	Jul 19 04:31
oiaohm	PDF is an example of a true standard.	Jul 19 04:32
oiaohm	Adobe released all the information to make clone programs.	Jul 19 04:32
tessier	Can we now use the PDF's with form fields and everything in them?	Jul 19 04:32
oiaohm	Reason why Linux has like 6 different pdf readers.	Jul 19 04:32
oiaohm	PDF format is fully openly documented tessier	Jul 19 04:32
tessier	So the answer is yes?	Jul 19 04:33
oiaohm	Yep.	Jul 19 04:33
oiaohm	Catch is very few programs implement all the features PDF offers.	Jul 19 04:33
tessier	Cool. It is a common enough ploy to release specs from one version ago but make the current software use the new format.	Jul 19 04:33
tessier	So they can say they opened up the standard but not lose their sales.	Jul 19 04:34
oiaohm	Adobe when they do it they do it right.	Jul 19 04:34
oiaohm	Every new version causes new docs to be released if they are doing a open standard.	Jul 19 04:34
tessier	Cool	Jul 19 04:34
oiaohm	Reason Adobe wanted archives on side.	Jul 19 04:34
oiaohm	Sun and Adobe both have released standard correctly.	Jul 19 04:35
Aondo	didnt okolar get some opposition becaus they follows the pdf format to allow drm?	Jul 19 04:35
Aondo	i think it is a interesting situation, beeing against drm, but for open standards :D	Jul 19 04:37
oiaohm	Using pdf spec sheets you have to agree not to break copy protection method included.	Jul 19 04:37
oiaohm	Really cheep price for patent protection from adobe on your implementation.	Jul 19 04:38
Aondo	i guess the situation would not be so interesting, if everyone was for sharing information. wouldnt really need copy protection then.	Jul 19 04:39
schestowitz	tessier: oops	Jul 19 04:39
schestowitz	I'll delete many backups	Jul 19 04:40
oiaohm	Business need secrets Aondo	Jul 19 04:41
schestowitz	tessier: OK now?	Jul 19 04:41
tessier	GPG is for secrets	Jul 19 04:41
schestowitz	I'd delete more if needed	Jul 19 04:42
tessier	schestowitz: Yep! Looks good.	Jul 19 04:42
tessier	Not that I need the disk space, I just don't want it to cause the site an error if it reaches 100%	Jul 19 04:42
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Lefty	Well, hi.	Jul 19 05:51
Lefty	I see Roy's doesn't like playing catcher.	Jul 19 05:52
Edgar	...	Jul 19 05:53
Edgar	:/ Microsoft has a patent on double clicking, and sudo...	Jul 19 05:53
Lefty	You folks enjoy this place while yo can.	Jul 19 05:53
Edgar	WTF?	Jul 19 05:53
Lefty	Roy's made charges of criminal activity against my employer, I doubt they're going to like that much.	Jul 19 05:54
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Lefty	It's too bad he doesn't have a lawyer, he could really use one.	Jul 19 05:54
ThistleWeb	Lefty: thanks	Jul 19 05:55
Lefty	Happy to help. =D	Jul 19 05:55
ThistleWeb	I'm just in the mood to have a laugh at some tosser	Jul 19 05:55
ThistleWeb	it's almost like you heard my plea	Jul 19 05:55
Lefty	Laugh it up. Roy knows I'm not kidding around.	Jul 19 05:55
ThistleWeb	and arrived to answer the call	Jul 19 05:55
Lefty	He's already admitted to libeling me.	Jul 19 05:55
ThistleWeb	we're giving you the respect you deserve	Jul 19 05:55
Lefty	Posted a full retraction and an apology, did he tell you _that_?	Jul 19 05:55
Lefty	I only care about respect from people _I_ respect.	Jul 19 05:56
ThistleWeb	lol	Jul 19 05:56
ThistleWeb	funny that	Jul 19 05:56
Muttley	so how do you register to leave comments on the site?	Jul 19 05:57
Lefty	Any of you folks go to GCDS...?	Jul 19 05:57
Lefty	You can't apparently, it seems to be half-broken. I've got no problem at all with registering.	Jul 19 05:57
ThistleWeb	I wonder how many hours astroturfing overtime Lefty will put in talking in this channel is nobody responds to him	Jul 19 05:57
Lefty	Aww. :'(	Jul 19 05:58
Lefty	Are you sticking your fingers in your ears, going "Lalalalalalala"?	Jul 19 05:58
oiaohm	Basically yes.	Jul 19 05:58
Lefty	Believe me, I don't get paid for this. Roy volunteered to be my hobby.	Jul 19 05:59
Muttley	just wanted to point out that Banshee and F-Spot wont depend on moonlight	Jul 19 05:59
Lefty	Knock yourselves out.	Jul 19 05:59
Lefty	How's that gonna work, Muttley?	Jul 19 05:59
ThistleWeb	"believe me" and you work for MS yes?	Jul 19 05:59
Muttley	Lefty: how do you mean?	Jul 19 06:00
ThistleWeb	the mafia have more honour than MS	Jul 19 06:00
Lefty	Aaron's clearly not taking Mono out of Banshee. Since you folks don't go to conferences, and don't know folks like Aaron, you're pretty much in the dark, aren't you?	Jul 19 06:00
ThistleWeb	I'd believe them before I'd believe MS	Jul 19 06:00
Lefty	Do you guys check under the bed for Microsoft before you can go to sleep?	Jul 19 06:00
Muttley	Lefty: eh?	Jul 19 06:00
Lefty	Oh, Moonlight. Sorry, Muttley, thought I saw "Mono".	Jul 19 06:01
oiaohm	I have been around too long. I have seen the java media players and torrent download programs come and go.	Jul 19 06:01
Muttley	is this knee jerk reaction channel or something?	Jul 19 06:01
oiaohm	Banshee and F-Spot will go the same path.	Jul 19 06:01
Lefty	I don't think ThistleWeb has ever actually met anyone from the Mafia.	Jul 19 06:01
oiaohm	.net has not cured the defects in java design.	Jul 19 06:02
Muttley	oiaohm: I was just commenting on a quote from the website that was taken from someone who was quite wrong	Jul 19 06:02
Lefty	Did you just have a knee-jerk reaction, Muttley...?	Jul 19 06:02
oiaohm	Sands of time are moving on.	Jul 19 06:03
Muttley	Lefty: seems that no matter what I say I get pounced on by either side of the fence ;)	Jul 19 06:03
oiaohm	That is what is wrong with MS bottom line at the moment.	Jul 19 06:03
Lefty	It's the Internet. That's how it works.	Jul 19 06:03
Muttley	yeah	Jul 19 06:03
oiaohm	I remember when Visual basic was ment to be the savour to programming.	Jul 19 06:05
Lefty	BASIC is an ugly language.	Jul 19 06:06
oiaohm	After a while it becomes simple to spot what languages truly do have staying power and what ones are just a temporarly distubance.	Jul 19 06:06
oiaohm	So is .net	Jul 19 06:06
Muttley	are you applying for the job of old wise man?	Jul 19 06:07
oiaohm	The job I have is because I am basically that.	Jul 19 06:07
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oiaohm	I have seen enough of computer history to pick the paths that will last.	Jul 19 06:08
Muttley	you a cobol programmer? ;)	Jul 19 06:08
oiaohm	Never was.	Jul 19 06:08
oiaohm	Same error as cobol as well does .net have.	Jul 19 06:09
oiaohm	The more you create a language split away from the OS it running on the worse its performance becomes.	Jul 19 06:10
oiaohm	Its a simple case that people are repeating the mistakes of history.	Jul 19 06:13
oiaohm	Funny thing is going to be that the next version of MS office is going to have a online version ad funded.	Jul 19 06:24
oiaohm	That could cause a nasty problem why buy MS office when you can test if document renders right on line.	Jul 19 06:24
Muttley	I'd imagine they'd still make a lot of money from businesses	Jul 19 06:25
oiaohm	Thinking if the forcasts are right 2010 are going to be another shocker as a nother 10 trillion dollars disappears out the system.	Jul 19 06:27
oiaohm	Businesses most likely will be looking to take the cheepest path.	Jul 19 06:28
oiaohm	Stick with what they have and use the online tool for conversion.	Jul 19 06:28
oiaohm	That is what is so fun at the moment. The worse of the storm cause by all the bad debts out there has not even hit yet.	Jul 19 06:32
Muttley	unfortuantely I've known a number of people in control of the IT budget who seem to think that you always must have the "latest and greatest" no matter how much advice he ignores from his employees	Jul 19 06:33
Muttley	at my last job getting anything for my php team was always a struggle. but the .NET team had insane amounts of money thrown at it	Jul 19 06:33
oiaohm	And I know many of them who have ended up out of business recently to there shock horrior.	Jul 19 06:34
Muttley	yeah, that company had to close down the IT department in the UK and off shore it to SA	Jul 19 06:34
Muttley	though they did keep the manager	Jul 19 06:34
oiaohm	My job is basically building solutions to cost and maintainable.	Jul 19 06:34
Muttley	he got moved over the SA to manage the new IT department	Jul 19 06:35
Muttley	which is why they now have they php website running off an ISS server	Jul 19 06:35
oiaohm	O well.	Jul 19 06:35
oiaohm	Time will catch up with him.	Jul 19 06:36
Muttley	unfortuantely the company makes quite a bit of cash so he'll get to continue throwing it away for a while longer	Jul 19 06:36
Muttley	but I don't mind	Jul 19 06:37
Muttley	my replacement quit and so they offered me a freelance job to do php stuff and a ridiculous rate	Jul 19 06:37
Muttley	so I get to sit on a beach in malaysia earning more money an hour than I did when I sat in an office in London	Jul 19 06:38
oiaohm	See time looked after you.	Jul 19 06:39
oiaohm	People who do the right things normally get looked after in the end.	Jul 19 06:40
Muttley	but if he'd taken my advice I'd be worse off today ;)	Jul 19 06:43
Muttley	is that Karma?	Jul 19 06:43
Muttley	:)	Jul 19 06:43
oiaohm	Not really.	Jul 19 06:44
oiaohm	You might have ended up premoted.	Jul 19 06:44
oiaohm	Telling what would have happened of someone did something different is hard.	Jul 19 06:44
Muttley	only place I could go from the position I had was to become a project manager and I like coding too much	Jul 19 06:45
oiaohm	They company could have grown as well more due to less overheads.	Jul 19 06:46
oiaohm	This is why its very had to tell Muttley	Jul 19 06:47
Muttley	well we were growing, the trouble is the government made one of our cash cows illegal	Jul 19 06:50
Muttley	management collectively shat themselves and in a huge knee jerk reaction closed down 4 departments and sent them back to South Africa	Jul 19 06:51
Muttley	stupid thing is the next year the government eased the restrictions	Jul 19 06:51
oiaohm	That is the problem with cash cows. Most of them end up with goverments messing with them.	Jul 19 06:51
oiaohm	Most of my job is creating stuff that does not cause huge profit but is repeatable profit. Custom hardware Custom software combinations....	Jul 19 06:53
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Muttley	cool	Jul 19 06:59
twitter	***twitter notices and ignores Lefty troll	Jul 19 06:59
Muttley	***Muttley notices twitter and laughs ;)	Jul 19 06:59
Muttley	oiaohm: I gotta get back to a proper job once I finish bumming around asia	Jul 19 07:00
twitter	Guy is a M$ user. Lefty is supposed to be a Mac user. Sheesh, trolls pretending to be other trolls.	Jul 19 07:00
oiaohm	Its the internet twitter	Jul 19 07:02
oiaohm	Anyone can be anyone.	Jul 19 07:02
Muttley	I'm Spartacus!	Jul 19 07:02
HivenGlaven	whats a troll ?	Jul 19 07:03
ThistleWeb	tonight Mathew I'd like to be the Sugar Plum Fairy	Jul 19 07:04
oiaohm	Heck you see trolls pretending to be roy	Jul 19 07:04
Muttley	HivenGlaven: anyone who you don't agree with	Jul 19 07:04
HivenGlaven	I thought by twitters comment it was a mac or M$ user	Jul 19 07:04
twitter	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/What_is_a_troll	Jul 19 07:05
oiaohm	I am a little tigher on term that that.	Jul 19 07:06
oiaohm	troll is someone who always turns up to cause trouble and changes the ID to make there argument look better.	Jul 19 07:06
ThistleWeb	there are peeps who seem to have trolls on the mind, and are always just a sentence away from accusing someone	Jul 19 07:06
oiaohm	Or to hide the fact they are only turning up to cause trouble.	Jul 19 07:06
twitter	http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Common_Troll_Tactics	Jul 19 07:07
HivenGlaven	by that definition no one here is a troll. but whatever.	Jul 19 07:08
Muttley	do people really say "OH PULEEEZE!" ?	Jul 19 07:08
twitter	http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html	Jul 19 07:10
twitter	http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aboycottnovell.com+lefty&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8	Jul 19 07:10
oiaohm	Yes we have had some that do say that line Muttley	Jul 19 07:13
twitter	http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/Troll-O-Meter.html	Jul 19 07:13
HivenGlaven	in 1970 they used to say that !!	Jul 19 07:13
oiaohm	Only 3 months ago by the way Muttley	Jul 19 07:14
Diablo-D3	eh, more like the 80s	Jul 19 07:14
Muttley	oiaohm: fair enough	Jul 19 07:14
Muttley	next they'll be saying "Talk to the hand!" and "Whateva!" :)	Jul 19 07:14
oiaohm	Whateva was once in the last month.	Jul 19 07:15
oiaohm	I have not see Talk to the hand yet.	Jul 19 07:15
Diablo-D3	ooh, I wonder if fake tatoos are en vogue again	Jul 19 07:15
Diablo-D3	actually, I wonder if saying en vogue is en vogue again	Jul 19 07:15
twitter	http://catb.org/jargon/html/H/holy-wars.html OMG, OMG, it's rape!	Jul 19 07:16
Muttley	Diablo-D3: I had a henna tattoo last week, does that count?	Jul 19 07:16
oiaohm	That is the other thing about trolls lot of them try to take termlogy to try to blend in. Problem is its normally completely out of date and just looks strange.	Jul 19 07:17
Diablo-D3	I guess if I wait long enough everything comes back in	Jul 19 07:17
HivenGlaven	did you get it in a gum pack, did you have to lick it and press it onto your arm ?	Jul 19 07:17
Diablo-D3	like, TMNT are back in	Jul 19 07:17
Diablo-D3	they're using the old 80s molds for the toys	Jul 19 07:17
Diablo-D3	(the same ones I owned as a kid)	Jul 19 07:17
Muttley	Diablo-D3: I'm waiting for the day i can dust off those flares ;)	Jul 19 07:17
Diablo-D3	and they're making that gi joe movie	Jul 19 07:17
HivenGlaven	dont forget the safari suit	Jul 19 07:18
Muttley	Diablo-D3: yeah, since transformers every 80s toy is getting a movie	Jul 19 07:18
Diablo-D3	transformers kinda sucks now	Jul 19 07:18
Diablo-D3	they've _been_ printing the old molds forever	Jul 19 07:18
Muttley	I'm waiting my My Little Pony 2: Revenge of the Sugar Cube	Jul 19 07:18
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Diablo-D3	some they cant print anymore because they destroyed the mold through overuse and dont have a replica	Jul 19 07:18
twitter	http://bayimg.com/oAegoAABO	Jul 19 07:19
Diablo-D3	(some later issues of said toys you can really tell they should have stopped, especially with heads)	Jul 19 07:19
twitter	http://bayimg.com/gAjiJaABP	Jul 19 07:19
twitter	not a press on.	Jul 19 07:19
Muttley	twitter: that guy with the zune one looks quite ashamed	Jul 19 07:19
Diablo-D3	the only thing that sucks is the new transformers for the movie	Jul 19 07:20
Diablo-D3	they're... not transformers	Jul 19 07:20
Diablo-D3	they'd actually be better off as expensive statues stuck in an action pose	Jul 19 07:20
Diablo-D3	(which they have too)	Jul 19 07:20
oiaohm	The more you look for history repeating the more you see it.	Jul 19 07:21
Diablo-D3	see, what we need is a saturday day cartoon	Jul 19 07:21
Diablo-D3	about FOSS people	Jul 19 07:21
Diablo-D3	with some sort of power rangers tie in	Jul 19 07:21
Diablo-D3	RMS can be the green ranger	Jul 19 07:21
Diablo-D3	where he promotes legal pot usage	Jul 19 07:21
Diablo-D3	s/saturday day/saturday morning/	Jul 19 07:22
Diablo-D3	linus can be the red ranger, etc etc	Jul 19 07:22
Diablo-D3	and they take on microsoft every week	Jul 19 07:22
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Diablo-D3	and their giant robot recieves upgrades via them coding out new shit	Jul 19 07:23
Diablo-D3	eventually, by the end of the series, it turns into some insane monster that eventually destroys the world x_x	Jul 19 07:23
Diablo-D3	moral of the story: dont let them near giant robots	Jul 19 07:24
oiaohm	That is kinda too late.	Jul 19 07:24
Diablo-D3	kids dont watch saturday morning cartoons anymore	Jul 19 07:27
Diablo-D3	I wonder when that ended	Jul 19 07:27
Diablo-D3	not only is my childhood dead, they killed it brutally	Jul 19 07:28
Diablo-D3	and then they piss on it's grave every few years	Jul 19 07:28
HivenGlaven	about the same time as flairs went out	Jul 19 07:29
HivenGlaven	and disco	Jul 19 07:29
Diablo-D3	thats the 70s!	Jul 19 07:30
HivenGlaven	and when they stopped running the phantom agents	Jul 19 07:30
Diablo-D3	Im thinking like the late 90s	Jul 19 07:30
Diablo-D3	afternoon cartoons were still strong	Jul 19 07:30
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Muttley	hmm, wonder if next Zend Studio will support bzr	Jul 19 07:37
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_Goblin	morning all.....	Jul 19 08:31
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ziggyfish	good afternoon all	Jul 19 08:42
ziggyfish	quick question, has MS released their Q4 financial reports yet?	Jul 19 08:43
ziggyfish	will be interesting to see the numbers	Jul 19 08:44
oiaohm	Not yet ziggyfish	Jul 19 08:46
ziggyfish	found the answer to my next question <http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/default.mspx>	Jul 19 08:47
ziggyfish	when will they	Jul 19 08:48
ziggyfish	Q4 – Thursday, July 23	Jul 19 08:48
oiaohm	Yep should be this week if its not shocking bad.	Jul 19 08:49
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ziggyfish	I think it will be (seen the numbers from the Q1-3)	Jul 19 08:50
ziggyfish	http://www.google.com/finance?fstype=ci&q=NASDAQ:MSFT	Jul 19 08:53
schestowitz	Morning...	Jul 19 08:55
schestowitz	I see that David's here	Jul 19 08:56
schestowitz	Yo, David	Jul 19 08:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Listening to FLOSS weekly ep 77 http://twit.tv/floss77		Jul 19 09:13
notzed	morning. i presume the new registration stuff isn't completley functional yet?	Jul 19 09:14
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Muttley	heh, chinese whispers are great	Jul 19 09:20
Muttley	"Banshee and F-Spot to depend on Moonlight"	Jul 19 09:20
Muttley	not quite :)	Jul 19 09:21
schestowitz	Not really	Jul 19 09:21
schestowitz	They reuse code AFAIK	Jul 19 09:21
schestowitz	Media controls	Jul 19 09:22
schestowitz	It's indicative of convergence	Jul 19 09:22
Muttley	f-spot will depend on banshee	Jul 19 09:22
schestowitz	For example, Banshee can be made to have a feature of playing Silverlight content offline	Jul 19 09:22
schestowitz	Which in turn means Microsoft codecs and other non-ECMA stuff...not to mention API concessions	Jul 19 09:22
Muttley	that's not depending though	Jul 19 09:22
schestowitz	Muttley: really?	Jul 19 09:23
schestowitz	Any link about that?	Jul 19 09:23
Muttley	http://download.banshee-project.org/documents/banshee-gcds-09.pdf	Jul 19 09:23
schestowitz	That would force Ubuntu, for example, to adopt more Mono applications with non-ECMA stuff	Jul 19 09:23
Muttley	that's the pdf that was read by mono-nono and reported, then was rereported by http://mether.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/banshee-and-f-spot-to-depend-on-moonlight/	Jul 19 09:24
schestowitz	http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2009/07/17/disappointed/	Jul 19 09:24
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Muttley	in reality banshe is becoming a platform with client UIs.	Jul 19 09:24
Muttley	they are planning a moonlight based UI	Jul 19 09:24
Muttley	then they're going to put photo management into the banshee platform so that f-spot becomes a client ui and can focus more on the image manipulation aspects over image management	Jul 19 09:26
Muttley	which as an f-spot and banshee user I kinda like	Jul 19 09:26
Muttley	wonder if that means they'll do a totem client for it	Jul 19 09:27
Muttley	though I'm all for "managing" my photos and music but I've never really got into doing it for videos	Jul 19 09:28
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Muttley	I think because I tend to delete videos when I've watched them rather than keeping a big library	Jul 19 09:29
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Edgar	Hmm	Jul 19 09:31
schestowitz	Hey, Edgar	Jul 19 09:36
schestowitz	What's up?	Jul 19 09:36
schestowitz	I'm doing COmes at the moment	Jul 19 09:37
Edgar	Hmm, just reading the gnome Mono deal on the site...	Jul 19 09:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Product Manager: “Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let’s move on and steal the Java language.” http://ping.fm/yoJjy		Jul 19 09:50
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft Product Dies as the Company Prepares for Horrible Financial Results http://ping.fm/qdxEo		Jul 19 10:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Launchpad opensourcing delayed http://ping.fm/Q8Hzw It has taken them years already. But they support AGPLv3 IIRC		Jul 19 10:47
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schestowitz	Oops. I hadn't realised registration was disabled in BN. Try now (For creating an account) http://boycottnovell.com/wp-login.php	Jul 19 11:11
oiaohm	Nice upgrade opps..	Jul 19 11:12
schestowitz	Nope	Jul 19 11:13
schestowitz	We used to have spam registrations, so I disabled it like a year ago	Jul 19 11:13
schestowitz	Now that I set it to require login to comment I didn't think registration was disabled	Jul 19 11:13
oiaohm	Its still a opps.	Jul 19 11:14
oiaohm	No where as bad as forgetting to start squid with all web traffic routed to it.	Jul 19 11:14
schestowitz	Media Wiki svn still not working right (downtimes for downloads).. http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Cite/Cite.php#Installation	Jul 19 11:16
schestowitz	I ought to post some Linux news. Not much news in general this week...	Jul 19 11:16
*amarsh04_ finally managed to get ipv6 working		Jul 19 11:17
schestowitz	amarsh04: it must be hard. 80,000 MS employees can't do it (like the lightbulb thing)	Jul 19 11:17
amarsh04_	linux for aircraft: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.boot-loaders.grub.bugs/7150	Jul 19 11:19
amarsh04_	my isp is fairly ipv6-savvy: http://ipv6.internode.on.net/	Jul 19 11:21
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why a GNU/Linux Revolution is 'Dangerous' http://ping.fm/unMBw		Jul 19 11:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google's Entry into Desktop GNU/Linux Market Can Affect Businesses http://ping.fm/XRH8p		Jul 19 11:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Illustration of the Ease of GNU/Linux Printing http://ping.fm/PKE8V		Jul 19 11:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mesa 7.5 is Released http://ping.fm/5d0ed		Jul 19 11:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wne 1.1.26 is Released http://ping.fm/fJGKc		Jul 19 11:44
fewa	1 thing, Google's OS might actually not be GNU/Linux	Jul 19 11:50
fewa	its might be Android/Linux	Jul 19 11:50
fewa	with their own wierd libc and such	Jul 19 11:50
schestowitz	Yes	Jul 19 11:52
schestowitz	Linux kernel	Jul 19 11:52
schestowitz	GPLv2	Jul 19 11:52
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_Hicham_	Hi oiaohm	Jul 19 11:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE Offers iTunes Replacement to Palm Pre Users ttp://practical-tech.com/entertainment/an-open-alternative-for-palm-pre-itunes-users/		Jul 19 11:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Wolvix 2.0 (Secon Beta) http://ping.fm/DImG2		Jul 19 12:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Christian Edition 5.0 and Ubuntu 8.04.3 Are Released http://ping.fm/jjWe7 http://ping.fm/4mXrH		Jul 19 12:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Palm Gets the Needed Lift from Linux, SDK Coming http://ping.fm/WkdeX		Jul 19 12:06
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schestowitz	Hi, jose	Jul 19 12:08
jose	schestowitz, hi.. why are comments disabled?	Jul 19 12:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Quick Review of the GNU/Linux-based Jolicloud OS http://ping.fm/vNgQc		Jul 19 12:09
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schestowitz	jose: not disabled	Jul 19 12:10
schestowitz	You just need to create a user account on the site	Jul 19 12:10
schestowitz	Then you can also comment quicklt	Jul 19 12:10
jose	You must be logged in to post a comment	Jul 19 12:10
schestowitz	There was a flood of trolls	Jul 19 12:10
jose	ok, .. i thought i created an account by my email is not registered.. i'll repeat	Jul 19 12:11
schestowitz	Including the anti-BN sites gaming and flooding it with rubbish on purpose	Jul 19 12:11
schestowitz	The trolling not only ruined the comments sections but the trolling also slowed down the site	Jul 19 12:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More On-board Linux Partnerships http://ping.fm/46fQN		Jul 19 12:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Quits the ARM Race Before It's Even Released http://ping.fm/1DQD5		Jul 19 12:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] NPR Chooses Free Software http://ping.fm/kTHpQ		Jul 19 12:17
fewa	thats whole article is full of MS confusing WIndows and "PC"	Jul 19 12:19
fewa	on purpose	Jul 19 12:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vanity Stickers for GNU/Linux and Free Software http://ping.fm/v1Jaf		Jul 19 12:19
schestowitz	PC=windows, no? :-)	Jul 19 12:19
schestowitz	You go the shop and WIndows is part of all the computers	Jul 19 12:19
Muttley	arg, stupid watchguard piece of crap	Jul 19 12:20
schestowitz	And if Linux is sold in Wal-mart, then like a mafia-gangster operating, Microsott pressurebullies them (document)	Jul 19 12:20
fewa	its trying to change history to make it seem like tying is OK	Jul 19 12:20
Muttley	2 hours of bashing my head against the wall as to why I couldn't access the wordpress svn server	Jul 19 12:20
schestowitz	fewa: if users are left choice	Jul 19 12:20
schestowitz	fewa: the svn at mediawiki is still down	Jul 19 12:21
schestowitz	Muttley: maybe related?	Jul 19 12:21
schestowitz	svn server at mediawiki down since yesterday morning	Jul 19 12:21
Muttley	schestowitz: nah, because I just logged off of the company vpn and it worked fine	Jul 19 12:22
Muttley	I stuck one of the more obscure error messages into google and got 3 pages, one with a guy saying the watchguard box he has blocked svn over http for some reason	Jul 19 12:22
Muttley	that's a pita	Jul 19 12:23
Muttley	wonder if I can come up with a work related reason why I need that unblocked	Jul 19 12:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Research organisation National ICT Australia Releases Free Software http://ping.fm/edTX6		Jul 19 12:25
Muttley	ahh, seems to be the PROPFIND http request type it doens't like	Jul 19 12:27
Muttley	because it's not in HTTP 1.1 RFC 2616 spec. damn these people and their standards ;)	Jul 19 12:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox About to Exceed 1,000,000,000 Downloads http://ping.fm/K0ILI		Jul 19 12:30
fewa	ughh ping has to use http meta redirections instead of doing it the right way with 301 moved temporarily	Jul 19 12:31
fewa	it it cause they want to extract information off of your browser?	Jul 19 12:31
fewa	nah	Jul 19 12:32
fewa	they must just be not thinking	Jul 19 12:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Interview with MariaDB Founder (the New Better MySQL) http://ping.fm/ibTGR		Jul 19 12:32
fewa	or maybe this way it shows up in http referel logs	Jul 19 12:32
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Tallken	does anyone know who is the Twitter account "wd7", alias windows7 ?	Jul 19 12:35
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schestowitz	I don't know	Jul 19 13:03
schestowitz	Could be many thing	Jul 19 13:03
schestowitz	W-E, TE, usefulidiots	Jul 19 13:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Swindle Shows the Harms of DRM http://ping.fm/45atM		Jul 19 13:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Associated Press Shows Its Sheer Hypocrisy http://ping.fm/2900S		Jul 19 13:10
Tallken	he subscribed after I mentioned I might put Windows in a VM and use Linux as sole OS xD	Jul 19 13:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mono -- Like Microsoft -- Resorts to Gagging Critics http://ping.fm/Vvl2P		Jul 19 13:19
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oiaohm	Nicta has a good video but I have no way to get it as ogg.	Jul 19 13:39
schestowitz	Yeah... well, they try	Jul 19 13:43
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jose	interesting the cricket AP misuse	Jul 19 13:54
schestowitz	This is funny. Using the big bang to market religion... craft deception.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP6ZiQ9oq94&feature=related	Jul 19 13:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] personally I think of librarians as quiet unassuming rabid perverts, but maybe that's just me http://catandgirl.com/?p=2115		Jul 19 13:59
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fewa	"Reason three: Opt-out is not acceptable	Jul 19 14:18
fewa	“Opt-out” is not the equal opposite of “opt-in”. Anyone who suggests that is trying to sell you something. “Just opt-out if you don’t like it” is the argument of telemarketers and spammers the world over. Team Mono is trying to put users of other distributions in the “opt-out” position, and that is not right.	Jul 19 14:18
fewa	Those same people who would figuratively spit on a spammer for using the “opt-out” argument will gladly turn around and tell you “It’s easy to remove mono if you don’t like it, so just shut up”, and never see the contradiction.	Jul 19 14:18
fewa	Consider this: I am not opposed to the very idea of inclusion of mono and mono apps in the repositories."	Jul 19 14:18
oiaohm	Consider this lot of people would prefer not to have mono by default.	Jul 19 14:19
fewa	thats the most important thing in the whole debate	Jul 19 14:20
oiaohm	Once you have installed it you might be caught up in libablity from it.	Jul 19 14:20
oiaohm	Anything that is questionable state should have a option of user not having it.	Jul 19 14:21
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oiaohm	MS does it with a lot of codecs.	Jul 19 14:21
_Hicham_	we need codecs too in Linux	Jul 19 14:22
_Hicham_	and thanks to GStreamer, we can have legal codecs	Jul 19 14:22
_Hicham_	and illegal ones also	Jul 19 14:23
oiaohm	User deserves the right to choose anything risky.	Jul 19 14:23
oiaohm	Also deserves the right not to have it pushed on them.	Jul 19 14:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the awful truth about mothers and coffee http://is.gd/1EcR2 it's all true! it's all true!		Jul 19 14:24
_Hicham_	what i want to see is some apps for linux developed by microsoft	Jul 19 14:30
_Hicham_	for example, Internet Explorer for Linux	Jul 19 14:31
_Hicham_	it is not that hard since there is Internet Explorer for Mac	Jul 19 14:31
_Hicham_	also Microsoft Office for Linux	Jul 19 14:31
_Hicham_	without Emulation	Jul 19 14:31
_Hicham_	and from Microsoft website	Jul 19 14:31
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_Hicham_	set up in online repositories	Jul 19 14:32
_Hicham_	and following GNU guidelines	Jul 19 14:32
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_Hicham_	that would be a big victory for linux	Jul 19 14:32
desu	i'd still not touch those things even with a 9001 meter long pole.	Jul 19 14:32
Diablo-D3	its over nine thousand!	Jul 19 14:33
desu	microsoft doing stuff for linux would be too suspicious...	Jul 19 14:33
*desu slaps Diablo-D3 8999 times		Jul 19 14:33
desu	under nine tousand :P	Jul 19 14:33
desu	*thousand	Jul 19 14:33
Diablo-D3	http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/07/ms_02.jpg	Jul 19 14:41
HivenGlaven	davidgerard are you saying to give up coffee or to give up sex :(	Jul 19 14:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] software is not "engineered", it's "craftsmanship"; control is ultimately illusory on software development projects. http://is.gd/1EdJi		Jul 19 14:46
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splosion	gosh. Pete's going to get flames for this one http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?p=566&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1	Jul 19 15:06
trmanco	http://www.openstickers.com/	Jul 19 15:10
trmanco	http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10013233o-2000440676b,00.htm	Jul 19 15:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Ukraine’s GNU/Linux Ambitions and Microsoft’s MOU Response http://ping.fm/rttRP		Jul 19 15:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Ubuntu 9.04 Snaps Desktop Visaster: http://is.gd/1EeVD		Jul 19 15:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Amazon says it won't repeat Kindle book recall: http://is.gd/1EeYd		Jul 19 15:15
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] now your car can take the piss: http://is.gd/1Eff5		Jul 19 15:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Microsoft Popfly - RIP.....Another #Microsoft product bites the dust. I wonder if Redmond is looking forward to Thursday and its Q4 figures?		Jul 19 15:30
fewa	youtube has started redirecting to login prompts when they decide you are not giving them enough information	Jul 19 15:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Still testing #!CBL 9.04.01 - giving it the family test, lets see what damage they can do to the distro. #linux		Jul 19 15:36
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schestowitz	_goblin is being harsh. Oh hum...	Jul 19 15:42
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schestowitz	wallclimber: I might do the next exhibit in the evening. We got to the point where I've almost finished one important set of docs.	Jul 19 15:58
wallclimber	good morning!	Jul 19 15:59
wallclimber	How many more sets are there?	Jul 19 15:59
wallclimber	that need working on, that is	Jul 19 16:00
schestowitz	Yes..	Jul 19 16:00
schestowitz	Hold on...	Jul 19 16:00
schestowitz	Heh. I think I showed you this one: http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/2009-exhibits/PX_9729.pdf :-D	Jul 19 16:01
schestowitz	It's the XP launch	Jul 19 16:01
schestowitz	But nothing good in there. Just worth filing sensibly for indexing purposes	Jul 19 16:01
schestowitz	Actually, I'll do so now	Jul 19 16:01
Lefty	Hi, Roy!	Jul 19 16:05
schestowitz	Hey David.	Jul 19 16:05
schestowitz	wallclimber: http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Launch_ceremony_of_Windows_XP stil cleaning up a bit	Jul 19 16:05
Lefty	So, you do understand that as a director of ACCESS and a member of the LiMo ASC I have to bring your charges to the attention of their respective legal departments tomorrow.	Jul 19 16:06
wallclimber	I wonder why it was part of the exhibits...wouldn't all of the exhibits be there due to discovery requests during the law suit?	Jul 19 16:06
Lefty	I don't know whether you know that, having pre-emptively made the claim--you did, you know--you've abandoned your right to prior discovery....	Jul 19 16:07
schestowitz	wallclimber: see http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/2009-exhibits/PX00982.pdf	Jul 19 16:07
schestowitz	It's part of a short series	Jul 19 16:07
Lefty	At least until you produce the cogent and persuasive evidence already in your possession.	Jul 19 16:07
schestowitz	Also this http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/2009-exhibits/PX00980.pdf and this http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-microsoft/2009-exhibits/PX00928.pdf	Jul 19 16:07
Lefty	(AND I DO NOT REPRESENT ACCESS OR LIMO NOW, JUST ME. IT'S SUNDAY. I DON'T WORK SUNDAYS.)	Jul 19 16:07
schestowitz	These basically show that bundling was done to harm DR-DOS	Jul 19 16:08
Lefty	Soooo....ya _got_ some evidence, Roy?	Jul 19 16:08
schestowitz	I have some notes laid out, but not the fuill text yet	Jul 19 16:08
Lefty	Frivolous charges on criminality, tsk, tsk.	Jul 19 16:08
Lefty	_Did_ you ever happen to take a course in Journalistic Ethics?	Jul 19 16:09
wallclimber	is there anything that needs transcribing?	Jul 19 16:09
Lefty	I think it's a big story, submit it to Datamation, see what they say?	Jul 19 16:09
Lefty	("Are you nuts?")	Jul 19 16:09
schestowitz	wallclimber: yes, 3 of them	Jul 19 16:09
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 16:09
schestowitz	As barebone evidence they speak a lot	Jul 19 16:09
schestowitz	Then we can explain about them	Jul 19 16:09
Lefty	Roy's going, "LALALALALALALALAICANTHEARLEFTYICANTHEARLEFTYLALALALALALA...."	Jul 19 16:09
Lefty	Oh, and you're aware--I posted a comment--that your claim that I libeled you is based on a posting made by someone else.	Jul 19 16:10
wallclimber	so i should work on these: 0980, 0928, and 0982	Jul 19 16:10
wallclimber	: )	Jul 19 16:10
Lefty	I don't think that's going to be of much help to you. I've got my own ID on Digg and I don't use Reddit at all.	Jul 19 16:11
Lefty	Given Roy's recent lapses in judgement, and his tendency to edit IRC logs--"scummy man", right, Roy?--I feel the need to keep an eye on you hyenas.	Jul 19 16:12
Lefty	Get nused to it.	Jul 19 16:12
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schestowitz	wallclimber: aye	Jul 19 16:12
wallclimber	okay!	Jul 19 16:13
Lefty	And you're going to tell us all when the FTC stamps "Ridiculous" on that complaint, right?	Jul 19 16:13
Lefty	Have you ever actually _read_ the "atroturfing law"? Do you understand it?	Jul 19 16:14
Lefty	For example, what "competitive products" has Jonathan Wong "vilified"?	Jul 19 16:14
Lefty	(Don't you think just ignoring me might make people wonder whether you have an answer at all?)	Jul 19 16:15
Lefty	I'm gonna head out to Jono Bacon's Community Leadership summit in a while, but I can hang with you guys for a bit.	Jul 19 16:15
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Lefty	You know who Jono is, Roy?	Jul 19 16:16
Lefty	How come _you_ didn't get invited to CLS? You're a "community leader", arencha?	Jul 19 16:16
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 16:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Here is a show of how GNU/Linux harmed Microsoft profits http://ping.fm/M2UP6		Jul 19 16:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another report on another Linux-incompatible product from Microsoft getting the axe. http://ping.fm/FWpHo		Jul 19 16:19
Muttley	surely it's not GNU/Linux that harmed their profits but cheap netbooks	Jul 19 16:20
Lefty	Here's a link showing Roy's a bald-faced liar: http://opensourcetogo.blogspot.com/2009/06/when-zeal-becomes-zealotry-tawdry-tale.html	Jul 19 16:20
Muttley	it forced them to sell cheap XP, and cut massively into their sales of their more profitable OS versions	Jul 19 16:20
twitter	There's a lot of strange stuff about the XP launch.	Jul 19 16:21
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Lefty	Here's a thread showing cola doesn't think much of Roy: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_thread/thread/c52bd3a6565ab8ea/214ea31a42aeff0f?lnk=raot&pli=1	Jul 19 16:22
Lefty	I agree, by the way.	Jul 19 16:22
twitter	My perspective on "disaster capitalism" was fundamentally altered by Hurricane Katrina. M$ made efforts to suppress the use of free software, which could have actually helped people, and the Red Cross and Federal use of Windoze was a mess that slowed things down.	Jul 19 16:23
Lefty	You're blaming the issues around the Katrina recovery on Microsoft?	Jul 19 16:24
Lefty	Not on the NOLA authorities who knew 25 years before that the levies were inadequate, and who spent money allocated to improve them on studies of casinos...?	Jul 19 16:24
Lefty	Wow.	Jul 19 16:24
trmanco	that's a troll	Jul 19 16:24
Lefty	You guys _do_ see Microsoft under the bed.	Jul 19 16:25
Lefty	What's it like to live in this sort of incessant terror? I'm curious.	Jul 19 16:25
twitter	In the immediate aftermath, the city was locked up and help was turned away. Supplies were stolen by the feds and reallocated as they pleased. Fuel which had been ordered by hospitals, for example, was taken to power up other things and people died.	Jul 19 16:25
Lefty	I'm not a troll, trmanco.	Jul 19 16:25
trmanco	not you	Jul 19 16:25
Lefty	Yep, very poor CCC.	Jul 19 16:25
trmanco	the post you linked to	Jul 19 16:26
trmanco	moshe golfarb is the flatfish troll	Jul 19 16:26
Lefty	They coul've improved that _if they'd spent the money they already had the way it was supposed to be spent rather than wasting it on a bunch of irrelevant studies_.	Jul 19 16:26
twitter	***twitter is unaware of the link because he's ignoring the person who made it.	Jul 19 16:26
Lefty	Well, Roy's the "Boycott Novell" troll, fair's fair.	Jul 19 16:27
trmanco	http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2008/01/moshe-goldfarb-troll.html	Jul 19 16:27
Lefty	Aw, Willy's _chicken_.	Jul 19 16:27
twitter	ick	Jul 19 16:27
twitter	thanks for sharing, I think.	Jul 19 16:27
Lefty	Afraid of getting into an actual _argument_, Willy?	Jul 19 16:27
Lefty	I know you're ill-equipped, but I can explain to you how I'm vivisecting you as we go, if you like.	Jul 19 16:27
Lefty	You want to tell me I'm a "crypto Mono supporter"?	Jul 19 16:28
Lefty	Roy says you're wrong.	Jul 19 16:28
Lefty	Want to call me a troll?	Jul 19 16:28
Lefty	Shane (whom I respect infinitely more than Roy, literally) disagrees.	Jul 19 16:28
Lefty	He smacked down Roy.	Jul 19 16:29
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 16:29
Lefty	I bet that stung, huh, Roy?	Jul 19 16:29
Lefty	Shane agrees with me "more often than not".	Jul 19 16:29
Lefty	Ow.	Jul 19 16:29
Lefty	Maybe Shane's a troll, too.	Jul 19 16:29
Lefty	Come on, Willy, want to go a round?	Jul 19 16:30
Lefty	I won't hurt you much.	Jul 19 16:30
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 16:30
Lefty	Maybe there's fifty of me doing this, too, huh, Roy?	Jul 19 16:30
Lefty	By the way, the site is dog-slow since you "upgraded" it.	Jul 19 16:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is in good hands http://ping.fm/Fo598		Jul 19 16:31
Lefty	I think you misconfigured something.	Jul 19 16:31
Lefty	LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA	Jul 19 16:31
Lefty	Hey, Roy, is this true?	Jul 19 16:37
twitter	The amazing lies told at the launch of XP are simply amazing.	Jul 19 16:37
Lefty	"He was recently found guilty of stealing artwork from other websites and posting them on his site despite the clear and obvious copyright warnings. He has no hesitation in shamelessly stealing the work of others and posting it up on his website as his own in order to try and make a few pennies profit."	Jul 19 16:37
twitter	amazing, amazing, amazing.	Jul 19 16:37
Lefty	Did you use artwork that you weren't entitled to?	Jul 19 16:37
Lefty	I wouldn't want to tell anyone that if it were untrue, Roy.	Jul 19 16:37
wallclimber	twitter, I agree.	Jul 19 16:37
twitter	The code changes were relatively minor, as cracking exploits showed. The same code flaws in XP were also in 98 and 95.	Jul 19 16:38
Lefty	The amazing lies told by Roy Schestowitz are simply amazing.	Jul 19 16:38
Lefty	Amazing, amazing, amazing.	Jul 19 16:38
twitter	Stability, boot time and all those other performance metrics did not change.	Jul 19 16:38
Lefty	The egregious lies told by Roy Schestowitz are simply egregious.	Jul 19 16:39
twitter	In fact, many were worse.	Jul 19 16:39
Lefty	Egregious, egregious, egregious.	Jul 19 16:39
Lefty	Roy, what's the story with that improperly used artwork? Fact? Fiction?	Jul 19 16:39
Lefty	I can write whoever does that blog for more details, I guess.	Jul 19 16:40
twitter	They brag about their useless firewall.	Jul 19 16:40
twitter	They brag about dead simple tasks, burning CDs and getting images off cameras.	Jul 19 16:41
Muttley	so on oneside we have some speed freak going crazy, and the other it's people talking about the release of a 7 year old OS	Jul 19 16:42
Muttley	you guys really go to extremes	Jul 19 16:42
*ydkj hands Muttley the popcorn ;D		Jul 19 16:42
Muttley	ydkj: thanks :)	Jul 19 16:43
Lefty	Speed freak, huh, Muttley? Another deep thinker, obviously.	Jul 19 16:43
Lefty	Come on, Roy, either you did it or you didn't.	Jul 19 16:43
Muttley	well you are posting like a kid with ADD after too much coke	Jul 19 16:43
Lefty	I guess I could report the claim. It's interesting, shows a wanton disregard for other people's copyright....	Jul 19 16:44
Lefty	That probably would look nice next to your flagrant disregard for the truth, hm?	Jul 19 16:44
wallclimber	twitter: What I found interesting in the XP release interview was how similar the "talk" was to the hype around Windows Vista and Win7 these days	Jul 19 16:44
Lefty	Am I, Muttley? How so?	Jul 19 16:44
twitter	It was the same for every launch.	Jul 19 16:44
wallclimber	twitter: the more things change, the more they stay the same	Jul 19 16:45
Lefty	I think it's more that I'm posting stuff that's inconvenient for you guys, not stuff that's incoherent.	Jul 19 16:45
wallclimber	: )	Jul 19 16:45
Lefty	So what exactly do you mean?	Jul 19 16:45
Muttley	Lefty: I mean that you're posting like a 14 year old	Jul 19 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How F-spot would force Ubuntu, for example, to adopt more Mono applications with non-ECMA .NET components http://ping.fm/Q2vS8		Jul 19 16:45
Muttley	"oh stop ignoring me, LALLALLA"	Jul 19 16:45
twitter	I don't have the patience to read all 26 pages	Jul 19 16:45
Lefty	I'm posting like a 14 year old because I'm posting like a 14 year old?	Jul 19 16:46
schestowitz	twitter: see Vista .launch too	Jul 19 16:46
Lefty	I was right, you are a deep thinker...	Jul 19 16:46
schestowitz	And prrelude to it	Jul 19 16:46
schestowitz	Identical, merely	Jul 19 16:46
Lefty	Hey, is that the Chimp?	Jul 19 16:46
schestowitz	Also the laptop gifts	Jul 19 16:46
wallclimber	twitter: i just skimmed it, i laughed when Sting showed up rowards the end	Jul 19 16:46
twitter	http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855	Jul 19 16:46
schestowitz	About 6 months before release the first time around	Jul 19 16:46
Lefty	I don't care if you ignore me, Muttley.	Jul 19 16:46
schestowitz	Edelamn vs W-E	Jul 19 16:47
schestowitz	*Edelman	Jul 19 16:47
Lefty	I'm just here to keep an eye on alla y'all, like I said...	Jul 19 16:47
twitter	http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/216759	Jul 19 16:47
Muttley	Lefty: dude you posted like 20 lines in a row with no one else talking.	Jul 19 16:47
twitter	Resistance has grown at each launch.	Jul 19 16:47
Muttley	you could have condensed that into 4 lines of reasonable argument	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	twitter: not really	Jul 19 16:48
twitter	It took three or four years for XP to reach 50% of the M$ users.	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	Vista is on par with V7	Jul 19 16:48
wallclimber	twitter: Yes, a lot of people have now joined the resistance : )	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	Both aredescribe as the big win thatwill take over	Jul 19 16:48
twitter	Vista will never get there.	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	Vista more so	Jul 19 16:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz wrong link! that's the Ukraine story		Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	Vista was lauded endlesslyt	Jul 19 16:48
twitter	Windows 7 will also fail.	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	Trust me, I spent dozens of hours per week on the subject	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	In 2006 that is	Jul 19 16:48
schestowitz	SOmetimes it's hard to convey and express level of hype	Jul 19 16:49
schestowitz	Maybe surveys are one way	Jul 19 16:49
twitter	The Windows inevitability myth is over.	Jul 19 16:49
schestowitz	But the 'mindshare' was set up such that there WAS NOT QUESTION about VIsta's coming success	Jul 19 16:49
schestowitz	Microsoft's internal memos claimed otherwise	Jul 19 16:49
schestowitz	The marketing budget was a real spree in Jan 2007	Jul 19 16:50
schestowitz	It lasted months before REAL PEOPLE became too loud for Microsoft PR to control	Jul 19 16:50
schestowitz	And it showed	Jul 19 16:50
twitter	They don't have the money for another marketing spree.	Jul 19 16:50
schestowitz	I did about 500 posts in USENET about VIsta	Jul 19 16:50
schestowitz	Each containing signs of problems, which I can't remember anymore cause it was over 2 years ago	Jul 19 16:51
twitter	Vista is still a mess.	Jul 19 16:51
twitter	My little failure log should jog your memory. :)	Jul 19 16:51
Lefty	It's an IRC channel, Muttley, that sort of thing happens all the time.	Jul 19 16:52
twitter	Started July 28, 2007	Jul 19 16:52
Lefty	_you_ weren't talking, what's your gripe?	Jul 19 16:52
schestowitz	The difference bwteen VIsta and V7 is also then economy	Jul 19 16:52
schestowitz	VIsta had more flattering surveys	Jul 19 16:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] David corrected me. Here is the correct link: http://ping.fm/6idKi "New F-Spot/Banshee Ties Pose a Microsoft Patent Threat"		Jul 19 16:52
schestowitz	Including the usual fluff from IDC	Jul 19 16:52
Muttley	Lefty: I just felt you kinda came across as a bit immature and it hurts your credibility	Jul 19 16:52
wallclimber	I've only met a couple of Vista machines when helping friends, it was pretty, but not very impressive otherwise...I guess if all you want to do is sit and stare at your computer, Vista might be useful	Jul 19 16:52
schestowitz	They got nailed for it in the press	Jul 19 16:52
twitter	Vista failed before the economy did	Jul 19 16:52
Lefty	Oh, Mr. Editor, this headline is ungrammatical: "So Many Trolls, So Little GNU/Linux Users…"	Jul 19 16:52
schestowitz	But for VIsta there was a healthy economy	Jul 19 16:52
Lefty	"Little" is incorrect, you mean "few".	Jul 19 16:53
schestowitz	Upgrades, new harrdware... caviar.. sushi... bring it on! :-)	Jul 19 16:53
schestowitz	Now everyone is happy with XP and some dual boot with Ubuntu	Jul 19 16:53
Muttley	Lefty: in fact, my original comment was just supposed to be a joke. I expected the anti-mono bunch to get more offended to be honest	Jul 19 16:53
Lefty	Well, Muttley, you come off as having an IQ about the same as the temperature at which a good Cabernet should be served.	Jul 19 16:53
Lefty	I think that hurts _your_ credibility.	Jul 19 16:53
schestowitz	Hence the need to generate myths about Ubuntu and poison it with SCO-like identical 'IP' like Mono	Jul 19 16:53
twitter	for some reason, the M$ people also talk about kristal or whatever that silly stuff is.	Jul 19 16:54
Muttley	wow, that's really stunning	Jul 19 16:54
schestowitz	Microsoft needsn't sue for mono	Jul 19 16:54
schestowitz	It just point at it and says, "pay up, it's a copy of .NET"	Jul 19 16:54
Lefty	You strike me as easy to stun, honestly.	Jul 19 16:54
schestowitz	Samba had the EU commission, Piana and SFLC intervene to change it	Jul 19 16:54
Lefty	who, exactly, are they telling to "pay up", Roy?	Jul 19 16:54
twitter	I cringe when I see mention of dual booting with Vista, because Vista sabotages dual boots.	Jul 19 16:54
Lefty	stopping people on the streets and shaking them down?	Jul 19 16:55
schestowitz	wallclimber: I never met a person's VIsta machine	Jul 19 16:55
schestowitz	Not even my sister's new PC	Jul 19 16:55
Lefty	did you think Microsoft has a paramilitary wing or something?	Jul 19 16:55
schestowitz	Bought in 2009	Jul 19 16:55
schestowitz	I laughed so hard seeing it running XP	Jul 19 16:55
schestowitz	I run PCLOS on oit	Jul 19 16:55
Muttley	Lefty: of course, you didn't specify the actual units you were using so I'm assuming Kelvin. in which case I'm flattered	Jul 19 16:55
ydkj	twitter: no, you just fail to set it up correctly ;P	Jul 19 16:55
Lefty	That's nice. You _would_ be.	Jul 19 16:56
twitter	A relative of mine got a Vista machine. It lasted a few months before it became unbootable. The last few weeks was them talking to Dell tech.	Jul 19 16:56
ydkj	and that shows what exactly? pebkac or ... ?	Jul 19 16:56
schestowitz	ydkj: they complicate it	Jul 19 16:56
twitter	I set up all of my machines correctly, ydkj, and wipe whatever it came with.	Jul 19 16:57
Lefty	Well, Roy, since you don't dispute it, I'm going to assume that the "playing fast and loose with other people's copyrights" is true.	Jul 19 16:57
ydkj	yeah, so it takes like 2 minutes more - come on it's not that hard.	Jul 19 16:57
Lefty	We can talk about it in the cross-examination.	Jul 19 16:57
schestowitz	g2g. Gym closed at 7	Jul 19 16:57
Lefty	I'll add it to the stack of evidence.	Jul 19 16:57
schestowitz	*closes	Jul 19 16:57
twitter	Vista SPs rewrite the MBR and bit locker is impossible to use with anything but Winblows.	Jul 19 16:57
Lefty	Bye, Roy, don't fall down at hurt yourself! See ya later!	Jul 19 16:58
ydkj	gasp, stop the press. And who is forcing you to use it? E.g. TrueCrypt is impossible to use without TrueCrypt as well ...	Jul 19 16:58
twitter	Go visit my failure log ydkj. Everything is documented there.	Jul 19 16:58
twitter	*** twitter ignores obvious troll ydkj	Jul 19 16:59
ydkj	well, ignore what you want but better stop ignoring reality ...	Jul 19 16:59
*tacone (n=Adium@151.82.130.126) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 19 16:59
Lefty	Willy can't hold his own here, either. Not surprising.	Jul 19 17:00
ydkj	besides that I still consider it pretty funny that you genius' still go on and call everyone who doesn't agree with you 100% a troll :D	Jul 19 17:00
twitter	Twitter happily uses GNU/Linux with full drive encryption. The kernel asks for a pass word and unlocks the partition in question. No modifications to grub were required.	Jul 19 17:00
Lefty	Anyone else finding the updated site to be slow as molasses?	Jul 19 17:00
Lefty	Yeah, that's the way they are, ydkj. They can't argue their "points" so they stand around going "Troll! Troll! Troll!"	Jul 19 17:01
Lefty	It's pretty pathetic.	Jul 19 17:01
HivenGlaven	Yes, calling anyone who disagrees a troll is sad i have to admit.	Jul 19 17:01
ydkj	twitter: congrats dude, and that's so frigging hard, right? I mean it proofs absolutely nothing and the only context with whatever been said is that it's related to encryption. So, what do you want to say with that?	Jul 19 17:01
Lefty	That goes double for the twit over there.	Jul 19 17:01
Lefty	Look at him, slack-jawed and goggle-eyed...	Jul 19 17:02
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 17:02
Lefty	These guys check under the bed to make sure that Microsoft isn't under there before they can turn out the light, ydkj...	Jul 19 17:03
*ydkj slaps Lefty		Jul 19 17:03
ydkj	Lefty: dude, they aren't called Microsoft but "M$" ;D	Jul 19 17:03
HivenGlaven	lefty, you've not been here when they ask how they can blame MS for (put world problem here) comments :D	Jul 19 17:04
Lefty	No, that's childish.	Jul 19 17:04
wallclimber	twitter: I had a great time yesterday showing a friend the differences between Ubuntu and XP. Installed a video card on a dual boot machine, then fired it up. Ubu didn't even blink, it just worked. Rebooted into XP and it took another 30 minutes to get the driver installed, with many adventures along the way. The "Readme" file for the driver had 18 steps of instructions for installing the driver. Made me laugh.	Jul 19 17:04
ydkj	Lefty: sure it is but that's how they are	Jul 19 17:04
Lefty	I'm sorry, Microsoft is not the Antichrist.	Jul 19 17:04
Lefty	Oh, yes, I was!	Jul 19 17:04
Lefty	It's the twit's thesis that the Katrina problems were all Micorosoft's fault!	Jul 19 17:04
wallclimber	I think Windows isn't quite ready for the desktop, much tooo hard for "grandma" lol	Jul 19 17:04
Lefty	I mean, it _couldn't possibly_ have anything to do with the NOLA local gov't ignoring wanrings about the levees for a quarter-century....	Jul 19 17:05
ydkj	wallclimber: out of curiosity, what card was that (did the same 2 days ago and didn't run into such troubles with another nvidia card)	Jul 19 17:05
Lefty	and fritter away the money that had to fix them on _studies_ about casinos!	Jul 19 17:05
Lefty	They didn't even get a casino out of it.	Jul 19 17:05
twitter	***twitter finally ignores HivenGlaven	Jul 19 17:06
HivenGlaven	or that the levies were build on a silt foundation	Jul 19 17:06
Lefty	These folks are like a little circle of lunatics, each reinforcing the other's delusions.	Jul 19 17:06
Lefty	You guys might not have heard....	Jul 19 17:06
Lefty	One of Roy's little trollettes decided to try to scare me by posting my employer's addresses and phone numbers into a comment.	Jul 19 17:07
wallclimber	ydkj: it was a PNY Geforce 9500 gt. It ended up being the driver, i did get an update to the driver and it all finally worked, but sheesh.	Jul 19 17:07
Lefty	Here's the best part: he did it _hoping that someone else would make the call_!	Jul 19 17:07
HivenGlaven	http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/3731248/to-become-an-extremist-hang-around-with-people-you-agree-with.thtml	Jul 19 17:07
Lefty	These guys show _such_ charracter, it's really inspiring to me.	Jul 19 17:07
tacone	twitter: did you invite some of your friends in the chan ? :)	Jul 19 17:08
splosion	hrmm, drama	Jul 19 17:08
wallclimber	Lefty: not everyone here is a guy.	Jul 19 17:08
Lefty	Yeah, that's about the size of it HivenGlaven...	Jul 19 17:08
twitter	I don't know what you mean, tacone.	Jul 19 17:08
HivenGlaven	guys is a generic term for "people"	Jul 19 17:08
Lefty	And have you looked at the comments?	Jul 19 17:08
Lefty	Have you _seen_ these guys trying to _argue_?	Jul 19 17:09
Lefty	Willy's most cogent statement to date has been, "You suck!"	Jul 19 17:09
Lefty	I'm using it generically, wallclimber.	Jul 19 17:09
Lefty	I can't see any of you.	Jul 19 17:09
Lefty	It's easier in Japanese, there's no gender sense to words.	Jul 19 17:10
Lefty	I'd say, "Minna-san", which doesn't go either way...	Jul 19 17:10
wallclimber	lol, well this little "generic" person has work to do...bye for now	Jul 19 17:10
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Jul 19 17:10
Lefty	Hey, twit? Parlez-vous le francais? Nihongo o hanasemasu?	Jul 19 17:11
Lefty	Or are you one of them Americans who thinks everyone _really_ speaks English?	Jul 19 17:11
splosion	lefty, who the hell cares?	Jul 19 17:12
splosion	why are you here?	Jul 19 17:12
Lefty	I do, splosion.	Jul 19 17:12
Lefty	Are you trying to oppress me?	Jul 19 17:12
Muttley	why are we all here? that's pretty deep for a Sunday	Jul 19 17:12
Lefty	Inhibit my _freedom_?	Jul 19 17:12
splosion	oh, trolling	Jul 19 17:12
tacone	splosion: he's just talking alone.	Jul 19 17:12
splosion	ok cool	Jul 19 17:12
Lefty	I _like_ you folks, you're very funny.	Jul 19 17:12
HivenGlaven	if you say too much that roy does not like he'll call you a troll and kick you from IRC.	Jul 19 17:12
HivenGlaven	I know, gee how I know LOL	Jul 19 17:13
tacone	Lefty: before you go on, do you know this channel is publicly logged ?	Jul 19 17:13
Lefty	I enjoy catching Roy in _every single lie he tells_ and he tells a _lot_ of 'em.	Jul 19 17:13
Lefty	Why are _you_ here?	Jul 19 17:13
Lefty	To whimper about _me_ being here?	Jul 19 17:13
splosion	keep going. You're a funny guy	Jul 19 17:13
twitter	schestowitz, your Ubuntu article got me thinking.	Jul 19 17:13
Lefty	See, Roy decided to make it more difficult to post comments, even though he knows for sure that a) it's just me...	Jul 19 17:13
Lefty	and b) I _never_ use a name other than my own.	Jul 19 17:14
HivenGlaven	giving you the moral victory Lefty	Jul 19 17:14
Lefty	So, since "most of the work" is done in IRC, I hear, I thought I'd see this work being done.	Jul 19 17:14
Lefty	Lend a hand, maybe.	Jul 19 17:14
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 17:14
twitter	Kubuntu looks like a good way out of the mono trap and may be their compromise, even though they seem to put more effort into Gnome.	Jul 19 17:14
tacone	twitter: kde has been marked as an alternative by some people	Jul 19 17:15
splosion	I never liked Kubuntu. Debian's KDE feels so much more refined	Jul 19 17:15
twitter	but that lead me to wonder why Novell, which has a KDE based distro, is so into Gnome.	Jul 19 17:15
*magentar_ (n=magentar@ip-95-223-204-218.unitymediagroup.de) has joined #boycottnovell		Jul 19 17:15
Lefty	HivenGlaven, with this crowd, getting the moral victory's easy. Collectively, Roy's little troll minions don't have the ethics of a pack of rabid hyenas.	Jul 19 17:15
Lefty	You can quote me on that.	Jul 19 17:15
twitter	How do they justify such a strange investment to their share holders?	Jul 19 17:15
tacone	kde people seems not that actracted by mono, for some reasons (some say because qt framework is good)	Jul 19 17:16
twitter	Right	Jul 19 17:16
tacone	twitter: i think it is historically bound to kde	Jul 19 17:16
Lefty	Why don't you _buy a share of stock and ask them_, Willy, you _dullard_?	Jul 19 17:16
twitter	KDE is not going to get suckered into that mess.	Jul 19 17:16
tacone	as kde and suse are much liked in germany	Jul 19 17:16
splosion	I've heard people sing the praises of QT to high heaven. Qyoto and [what's that other kde-mono one called?] don't seem to be taking off very well. could do in time though	Jul 19 17:16
twitter	KDE is much liked everywhere.	Jul 19 17:17
tacone	but miguel, who's co-founder of gnome(?) was hired in novell afterwards	Jul 19 17:17
Lefty	And if you want "Mono out of the Ubuntu default install" so badly, how come none of you is running for the Ubuntu Technical Board?	Jul 19 17:17
Lefty	See, that's what makes it obvious that you're nothing but a bunch of griefers.	Jul 19 17:17
tacone	Lefty: not easy to run for UTB. try yourself.	Jul 19 17:17
Lefty	KDE is not "much liked everywhere", Willy.	Jul 19 17:18
twitter	If Novell loves Gnome so much, why do they stick with KDE?	Jul 19 17:18
Lefty	you don't know what you're talking about.	Jul 19 17:18
Lefty	People like KDE less and less as time goes on.	Jul 19 17:18
tacone	twitter: why shouldn't them ?	Jul 19 17:18
Lefty	More than half the folks at the Desktop Summit were GNOME folks.	Jul 19 17:18
tacone	there's community's work. and existing user base and so on.	Jul 19 17:18
Lefty	You wouldn't know that, you don't know jack about the _real_ FLOSS development community, do you?	Jul 19 17:19
twitter	Because they should be putting their money into developing the platform they sell customers, not Ubuntu.	Jul 19 17:19
Lefty	Come on, WIlly! Startle me! Prove me wrong.	Jul 19 17:19
Lefty	Um, Willy, what?	Jul 19 17:19
tacone	twitter: guess they still put the majority of money in gnome (also via mono). aren't them ?	Jul 19 17:19
Lefty	You're not even making sense now.	Jul 19 17:19
tacone	Lefty: you're being annoying.	Jul 19 17:20
Lefty	Hey, Willy, who's the head of the KDE board, since you're such a fan?	Jul 19 17:20
twitter	I don't know what they do, but Roy has shown that Novell would not be here without M$ bribe money.	Jul 19 17:20
Lefty	Tough, tacone.	Jul 19 17:20
Lefty	Grow a thicker skin.	Jul 19 17:20
twitter	So basically, they serve M$ not their customers.	Jul 19 17:20
Lefty	Oh, and you're being childish. So there.	Jul 19 17:20
Muttley	haha	Jul 19 17:21
splosion	Lefty: NO U	Jul 19 17:21
ydkj	twitter: you aren't really trying to say that Novell doesn't do a thing for Gnome but only lives from the great contributions the mighty buntu does to Gnome and foss in general, are you?	Jul 19 17:21
Muttley	this is awesome	Jul 19 17:21
Lefty	Um, how do you figure, Willy. Novell already _got_ the money. Sow your work.	Jul 19 17:21
tacone	Lefty: it's not me screaming about sexism for a virgin-mary parody. i have thick skin. I'm telling for you. Your msg here are lesive for your reputation	Jul 19 17:21
Lefty	That's like saying because Apple used to pay me a decade ago, they're still paying me now.	Jul 19 17:22
Muttley	ydkj: they help toxically poison gnome with toxins and poison ;)	Jul 19 17:22
Lefty	Well, tacone, see, that's because I _actually spoke to folks at GCDS_ who were as unhappy as I was.	Jul 19 17:22
Lefty	You think I'm the only one who's complained about it?	Jul 19 17:22
Lefty	I'm just the only one who wrote _Stallman_ about it, and he acted....unfortunately.	Jul 19 17:23
tacone	No, but I think you're allowing yourself beyond what politeness suggests, here.	Jul 19 17:23
Lefty	"lesive"? What's that mean, tacone? To quote Stallman ridiculing a questioner for whom English was not a first language, "I......Caaaaaaaaaan't understaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand yooooooooooooou. Caaaaaaaaaaan yooooooooooou enuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunciaaaaaaaaaaaate beeeeeeeeetter?"	Jul 19 17:24
ydkj	Muttley: well, if Gnome doesn't want them noone is forcing them to use them.	Jul 19 17:24
Lefty	Well, that's a matter of opinion, tacone.	Jul 19 17:24
Lefty	maybe you should write the president of the internet and complain, hm?	Jul 19 17:25
Lefty	besides, tacone, what exactly are you talking about?	Jul 19 17:25
Muttley	ydkj: the joys of open source where if people don't like something they can do it another way	Jul 19 17:26
*magentar has quit (Connection timed out)		Jul 19 17:26
Lefty	Did I mention that when Roy called me a troll, Shane disagreed? "I agree with Lefty more often than not."	Jul 19 17:26
splosion	Lefty: lesive is an Italian word	Jul 19 17:26
Lefty	That's what he said.	Jul 19 17:26
twitter	Lefty has never been polite, informative, entertaining or anything useful. You are better off ignoring or kicking him.	Jul 19 17:26
Muttley	ydkj: what I don't understand is how some many KDE fans can find the time to hate something that's gnome only	Jul 19 17:26
ydkj	One thing I'm curious about is why you guys go so nuts if someone dares to critizice stallman? Is he like the pope who is always right based on some godly law or ... ?	Jul 19 17:26
Lefty	Oh, well, "baka" is a Japanese word. Want to know what it means?	Jul 19 17:27
splosion	I already know	Jul 19 17:27
Lefty	Yeah, I'm starting to think they worship Stallman or something.	Jul 19 17:27
Lefty	Do you folks keep his picture under your pillows?	Jul 19 17:27
Lefty	Oh, good, splosion! Try and work out how it applies to you!	Jul 19 17:27
HivenGlaven	it is very cult like lefty	Jul 19 17:28
Lefty	"WE PLEDGE ETERNAL ALLEGIANCE TO OUR LEADER, RICHARD STALLMAN!"	Jul 19 17:28
Lefty	Something like that...?	Jul 19 17:28
Lefty	Hm. I usually associate cults with, oh, sex orgies and stuff.	Jul 19 17:28
ydkj	Muttley: I wouldn't say hate but more "mocking" Gnome for its "The user needs no options but defaults choosen by devs" pov. Regarding the Gnome only stuff, since I can use Gnome apps on KDE and the other way round I can just use what I want. Which is one of the reasons I don't get it why they go so nuts.	Jul 19 17:29
Lefty	I don't think Roy's pals know what sex is, honestly.	Jul 19 17:29
HivenGlaven	cults need at least 2 things a figure head and a cause.	Jul 19 17:29
Lefty	I mean it's clear that tacone, at least, doesn't know any actual women.	Jul 19 17:29
Lefty	And I wouldn't think Willy's Tourette's Syndrome would be a big draw...	Jul 19 17:29
Muttley	ydkj: yeah, "f-spot is the devils work, it uses mono. Digikam is better" fine, use digikam then, your choice ;)	Jul 19 17:30
Lefty	And no woman would put up with Roy's pathological lying.	Jul 19 17:30
splosion	This is great stuff, Lefty. you should write a blog post about how you fearlessly entered the domain of fanboynazizealots and totally pwned them. Another glorious victory for... whatever the hell it is you stand for	Jul 19 17:30
ydkj	HivenGlaven: well, they have the beard, now they just need a brain to find the cause ;D	Jul 19 17:30
Lefty	There are more interesting things to blog about, splosion. Where's _your_ blog, since you're such an afficionado of such things?	Jul 19 17:31
splosion	I don't blog about BN, Mono, or any of the things BN goes on about	Jul 19 17:31
Lefty	And you haven't seen "pwned" yet. Like I said, ask Roy about how I'm going to be seeing him in court for libeling me...	Jul 19 17:31
Lefty	He _admitted_ it, you know.	Jul 19 17:31
ydkj	Muttley: yeah, and if you absolutely can't stand it write your own like that dude did for some mono notes app iirc. However, that would mean that zealots like twitter would have to do something productive which surely wont happen	Jul 19 17:31
Lefty	Posted a full retraction, and an apology. That's what they call _prima facie_ evidence.	Jul 19 17:32
Lefty	That means it's an "open and shut case"...	Jul 19 17:32
tacone	Lefty: did you ask him to rectify before threatening to sue ?	Jul 19 17:32
Lefty	I did.	Jul 19 17:32
tacone	if you did, I have missed that.	Jul 19 17:33
Muttley	ydkj: it's far easier to sit on your arse and moan than lift a finger and do something productive	Jul 19 17:33
Lefty	As part of his apology, he undertook never to be so irresponsible again in the future.	Jul 19 17:33
ydkj	Muttley: for sure :D	Jul 19 17:33
Lefty	He broke _that_ promise within a day.	Jul 19 17:33
Lefty	Well, then you missed it, tacone. I've pointed out to Roy every single one of his libels when I've become aware of them.	Jul 19 17:34
ydkj	tacone: does it matter? boy is spreading lies for ages and refuses to correct even the most blatant ones so, personally, I'm happy and have a great laugh now that someone finally gets bored enough to sue that fucker.	Jul 19 17:34
HivenGlaven	It was damn fine of Roy to hang around and debate the issues with you Lefty, and not run away from being called about his "facts".	Jul 19 17:34
Lefty	He's got an article that claims--get this--based on a _parody_ article about Google's "ChromeOS", that the "Microsoft CEO Admits That Vista is Vapourware".	Jul 19 17:34
Lefty	That's what the headline says.	Jul 19 17:34
Lefty	It's been pointed out to him multiple times, and he hasn't corrected it.	Jul 19 17:35
Lefty	Are you suggesting, in the face of all the evidence, that Roy is _not_ a pathological liar....?	Jul 19 17:35
ydkj	cause its a blog and we have freedom of speech	Jul 19 17:35
ydkj	or no, was it a journal	Jul 19 17:35
Lefty	Yeah, HivenGlaven, Roy's a real man of conviction!	Jul 19 17:36
ydkj	or even a wiki made by others?	Jul 19 17:36
Lefty	Willy found that out.	Jul 19 17:36
*ydkj lost it ;'(		Jul 19 17:36
tacone	Lefty: could you link your first rectification request ?	Jul 19 17:36
Lefty	He and ROy were the ones spreading the libel that I objected to.	Jul 19 17:36
Lefty	Roy cut and ran, retracted it, apologized in full, swore never to do it again, and left poor twit there, twisting in the wind with a stupid expression on his face.	Jul 19 17:37
Lefty	Right, twit?	Jul 19 17:37
Lefty	All I can say is that if it looks like a news site, and it has an editor like a news site, and it publishes news like a news site, and the fellow responsible is a "freelance journalist"....	Jul 19 17:38
Lefty	Well, you get the idea...	Jul 19 17:38
tacone	I'm suggesting you said you asked for rectification before threatening and I still can't read it anywhere. That's fine, bn has a lot of posts. But still i miss it.	Jul 19 17:38
Lefty	Could you blow it out your ear, tacone?	Jul 19 17:39
Lefty	This is between Roy and me.	Jul 19 17:39
Lefty	Do your own research, numbskull.	Jul 19 17:39
tacone	it's between you two until you come here and take pride of a legal threat.	Jul 19 17:39
Lefty	You don't get it, see? Roy had _already admitted to libeling me.	Jul 19 17:40
ydkj	nah, that's fine since it gives me a great laugh :D	Jul 19 17:40
Lefty	I had to make it clear to him that I was in complete earnest about hauling his sorry ass into court to get him to retract his defamation and apologize for it.	Jul 19 17:40
Lefty	With me so far?	Jul 19 17:40
Lefty	As I said, he broke his promise to be more responsible before 24 hours was out.	Jul 19 17:41
ydkj	Lefty: but that's not really surprising ;D	Jul 19 17:41
Lefty	I told him I viewed that as acting in bad faith. What's your big interest in a request for rectification from someone who's a) already an admitted libeler, and b) has shown bad faith in breaking a covenant he agreed to?	Jul 19 17:42
Lefty	You another one of them "internet lawyers"?	Jul 19 17:42
tacone	he admitted a mistake afaik.	Jul 19 17:42
Lefty	Of course it's not surprising, it's Roy all over. But tacone there is shuffling his feet, going "Well dude, did you ask him to, like, y' know, _rectify_ it? 'Cause, um, I didn't actually, like, you know, _see_ it, right?"	Jul 19 17:43
ydkj	tacone: sry, but calling boys stuff "mistakes" is pretty ridiculous	Jul 19 17:43
Lefty	He admitted _defamation_, tacone. That's a _big_ mistake.	Jul 19 17:43
twitter	Vista 7 hype log is updated http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/216759	Jul 19 17:43
Lefty	And then he jumped right back into it.	Jul 19 17:44
HivenGlaven	libel is a serious charge, and not hard to convict on it can be very expensive if your convicted especially if it affects someone's professional career. It's even worse if its repeated, and they are aware of what they are doing.	Jul 19 17:44
splosion	jesus, Lefty, stop being as ass. If you're gonna do it, just bloody well DO IT already. stop being a cock about it	Jul 19 17:44
Lefty	And "as far as you know" is about the distance from my left nostril to my right.	Jul 19 17:44
HivenGlaven	Lefty, they call Win 7 Vista 7 here, it's their little in joke.	Jul 19 17:44
ydkj	no way, go on, I love it :D	Jul 19 17:44
Lefty	I've got clearcut evidence, HivenGlaven, and as I said, Roy colluded with some of his trollettes to try and cause trouble for me at my job.	Jul 19 17:45
Lefty	didn't work of course, but this place needs to be shut down, I believe.	Jul 19 17:45
twitter	as more ARM and MIPS netbooks hit the market, M$ inability to port is going to tell on them.	Jul 19 17:45
Lefty	splosion, I'm doing it. Enjoy this place while it's still around. and say your byebyes to Roy.	Jul 19 17:46
Muttley	Lefty: are you going to take him to court then>	Jul 19 17:46
Muttley	?	Jul 19 17:46
Lefty	Well, obviously, Muttley.	Jul 19 17:46
Lefty	Yes.	Jul 19 17:46
Muttley	where?	Jul 19 17:46
HivenGlaven	Ive had that happen to me, I built a strong case hired a top law speaking guy, and they other person crumbled. BTW: my boss thought he was a crazy it did nothing to hurt me.	Jul 19 17:46
twitter	People want portability that Intel has yet to deliver.	Jul 19 17:46
Lefty	Roy's pals made up my mind for me when they posted the contact information for my employer in a comment.	Jul 19 17:46
twitter	well, Wintel has yet to deliver.	Jul 19 17:46
Muttley	Lefty: which country?	Jul 19 17:47
Lefty	Willy, shut up, we're talking here.	Jul 19 17:47
Lefty	stay on topic.	Jul 19 17:47
HivenGlaven	Yes I read that, its quite disgusting to see people stoop to that level. or even feel they need too.	Jul 19 17:47
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))		Jul 19 17:47
Lefty	I'm going to sue him in the UK. he's based there, and the defamation laws are _extremely_ friendly to the defamed.	Jul 19 17:47
Lefty	Also, it'll make it a lot easier to strip him of his various assets.	Jul 19 17:48
twitter	EEE PC, despite it's flaws, was a big hit.	Jul 19 17:48
Lefty	Who are you talking to, Willy?	Jul 19 17:48
Lefty	The wall?	Jul 19 17:48
Muttley	does publishing personal information count as defamation?	Jul 19 17:48
twitter	Android devices and stuff like crunchpad are going to run away with the PC market.	Jul 19 17:48
Lefty	I travel to the UK a lot, as it happens.	Jul 19 17:48
splosion	good old UK defamation laws. Pretty much the only place in the world where you can be sued for libel even if what you say is true. is this part of your decision to come to the UK, Lefty?	Jul 19 17:49
twitter	People don't want to spend $1000 on a computer any more. You will be lucky to get $200 out of them.	Jul 19 17:49
HivenGlaven	it could certainly be construde as intimidation or even terrism in this age.	Jul 19 17:49
Muttley	HivenGlaven: that's not the same	Jul 19 17:49
twitter	The last mile problem can still be a barrier.	Jul 19 17:49
Lefty	No, Muttley, that would be invasion of privacy. Telling outright lies which would damage my reputation--in this case that "the only reason Lefty is complaning about Stallman is that Lefty is a SECRET MONO SUPPORTER!"	Jul 19 17:50
Lefty	That's damaging to me, and that what he retracted and apologized for.	Jul 19 17:50
twitter	Most long range wireless services are run by abusive monopolies who push really poor and non free software.	Jul 19 17:50
Muttley	how is it damaging?	Jul 19 17:50
Lefty	I know it's a challenge, Muttley, do try and keep up.	Jul 19 17:50
ydkj	splosion: of course he should sue boy in spain and not in the uk since he lives in the uk, right?	Jul 19 17:50
Lefty	Anyone know who Willy thinks he's talking to...?	Jul 19 17:51
twitter	The answer, of course, is more freedom not less.	Jul 19 17:51
twitter	Open Spectrum should put an end to wireless pain. http://www.reed.com/OpenSpectrum/	Jul 19 17:51
Lefty	Er, how is it damaging? Claiming that I'm colluding with Novell to "assassinate Stalman's character"?	Jul 19 17:51
Lefty	You don't see that as damaging to me?	Jul 19 17:51
David_Lee	Twitter: Have you heard any updates on the susu snapdragon?	Jul 19 17:51
Muttley	also if he's retracted and apologised for his statement doesn't that weaken your case?	Jul 19 17:51
David_Lee	*susu=ASUS	Jul 19 17:52
twitter	no	Jul 19 17:52
Lefty	Muttley?	Jul 19 17:52
twitter	ASUS has been clobbered by M$ as far as I can tell.	Jul 19 17:52
Lefty	Nope, it strengthens it. By retracting it and apologizing, he _admits_ it's libel.	Jul 19 17:52
HivenGlaven	then doing it again soon after makes it even worse	Jul 19 17:53
twitter	they took an operating loss on hardware, for the first time in their history, shortly after putting XP on their EEE PCs.	Jul 19 17:53
Muttley	did he say he meant malice by it?	Jul 19 17:53
Lefty	He also made a prmise to be more responsible in the future, which he broke in less than a day, repeating (at second-hand) _exactly_ the same lies.	Jul 19 17:53
twitter	Now they dump GNU/Linux completely.	Jul 19 17:53
Muttley	or did he just apologise for name calling	Jul 19 17:53
Muttley	and admit his mistake	Jul 19 17:53
Lefty	Look at this site, Muttley.	Jul 19 17:53
Lefty	Jeebub, why don't you go and _read_ the damned thing, Muttley.	Jul 19 17:54
Muttley	Lefty: dude, his site is full of crap. I could spend hours looking.	Jul 19 17:54
Muttley	then post the link	Jul 19 17:54
twitter	I'd be happy to learn asus has gotten out of that bed.	Jul 19 17:54
Muttley	if you're going to be presenting it as evidence surely you have a url close to hand	Jul 19 17:54
David_Lee	Last time Asus dropped the ball Acer to the lead. Now they're screwing it with the a0531h.	Jul 19 17:54
ydkj	Muttley: no, boy doesn't mean mallice with anything he does, he's a good hearted fella who just wants the best for everyone. That's why he runs his "site" like he does ... (keep the irony ;D)	Jul 19 17:54
Lefty	You'll find a full and detailed retraction, and unreserved aplogy, and a promise to refrain from making such "irresponsible statements" in the future.	Jul 19 17:54
Lefty	That's you're problem, Muttley, you can take my word for it or not.	Jul 19 17:55
Lefty	I'm not your research assistant.	Jul 19 17:55
Muttley	ydkj: oh yeah, I believe that. but I'm just saying that unless he admits that he meant to defame lefty by his statement then an apology doesn't help lefty much	Jul 19 17:55
twitter	Roy has a few good write ups, like this http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/24/microsoft-pays-asus-claim/	Jul 19 17:55
Lefty	I've got plenty of URLs, but I find you too stupid to indulge.	Jul 19 17:55
Muttley	Lefty: dude, wtf? don't you even have it bookmarked	Jul 19 17:55
twitter	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=site%3Aboycottnovell.com+asus&aq=f&oq=&aqi=	Jul 19 17:56
Lefty	I don't need to prove anything to you, Nimrod, just to the judge.	Jul 19 17:56
Muttley	Lefty: you droned on about it enough I'd just expect you have it close to hand	Jul 19 17:56
twitter	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/06/asustek-falls-with-windows/	Jul 19 17:56
David_Lee	Yeah, I read that one.	Jul 19 17:56
HivenGlaven	You would think someone like Roy would know about libel and defamation laws quite well considering how he plays fast and lose with the truth, after all what would he do if he got a legel letter from a Bill Gates or balmer lawyer with very very deep pockets and good legal council.	Jul 19 17:56
twitter	Sad story.	Jul 19 17:56
Lefty	Muttley, do you know what the phrase "in flagrant disregard for the truth" means?	Jul 19 17:56
David_Lee	Not the second.	Jul 19 17:56
twitter	They were choked in the retail channel.	Jul 19 17:56
Lefty	Do you know anything at all about journaistic ethics and responsibilities?	Jul 19 17:56
Muttley	Lefty: dude, the guy writes a blog. I know he likes to claim he's a journalist but that doesn't mean he is	Jul 19 17:57
Lefty	HivenGlaven, I would have thought so, too, but I've come around to the view that Roy is actually just too stupid.	Jul 19 17:57
Lefty	He doesn't even seem to have a lawyer to call.	Jul 19 17:57
twitter	PJ covered the smoking gun complaint. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090619161307529	Jul 19 17:57
Lefty	If he did, he'd know he's in deep doo-doo here.	Jul 19 17:57
David_Lee	Also Sony is a followup to the ao531h with their small version.	Jul 19 17:57
twitter	she's got updates. I think I'll read that again.	Jul 19 17:57
splosion	Lefty, everything you accuse Roy of doing (which ultimately amounts to "he dissed me!"), you are doing likewise every time you open your god-damned mouth by insulting pretty much everyone you meet. You're being hypocritical, unethical, and a troll. If you had any integrity at all you'd practise what you preach; but as it stands, no amount of bullshit reasoning can hide the fact that you lack it.	Jul 19 17:58
Lefty	It's not a blog, Muttley. ROy's an editor and a freelance journalist. Says so in his (digitally signed) email sig.	Jul 19 17:58
Lefty	Thinks that's just a fun thing to call yourself?	Jul 19 17:58
HivenGlaven	the "smoking gun" was a Asus rep saying he wuold love to ship with linux but he has to sell the products and no one wants to buy the linux ones. read it.	Jul 19 17:58
Lefty	Bite me, splosion. you're another dullard, and I don't think I need to be nice here.	Jul 19 17:59
Muttley	if I call myself the King of England does mean i get to wear a crown? ;)	Jul 19 17:59
Lefty	And you misspelled "inconvenient".	Jul 19 17:59
Muttley	all I'm saying is I think you're overestimating your chances of success	Jul 19 17:59
David_Lee	The Charlie Demerjian's link was the one i was going to send to Andrew. Had lost it. Thanks.	Jul 19 17:59
ydkj	splosion: well, being impolite is pretty different to spreading blatant lies	Jul 19 18:00
Muttley	a well written apology can destroy a defamation case.	Jul 19 18:00
HivenGlaven	not very often	Jul 19 18:00
Lefty	If you call yourself a freelance journalist and an editor, and you have a site full of what look an awful lot like news stories, and you link to other news sites...	Jul 19 18:00
Lefty	then the reasonable assumption is that you're a news site.	Jul 19 18:00
Muttley	right, because that doesn't describe 50% of blogs ;)	Jul 19 18:01
Lefty	Roy has a responsibility to tell the truth, one in which he's dismally failed.	Jul 19 18:01
Lefty	Really? You a lawyer, Muttley?	Jul 19 18:01
Muttley	I think you're going to be disappointed	Jul 19 18:01
Lefty	Got much legal experience?	Jul 19 18:01
Lefty	Let's hear about it.	Jul 19 18:01
Muttley	Lefty: not really, but then neither are you so it's a void point	Jul 19 18:02
Lefty	I'm a member of the FSF Europe's Legal and Licensing Network, and, I think, the only non-lawyer.	Jul 19 18:02
Lefty	It's invitation-only, you know.	Jul 19 18:02
HivenGlaven	he is obviously touting himself as a commentator and investigator of MS and Novell and anything else he wants too here. he's admitted that here many times.	Jul 19 18:02
twitter	:)	Jul 19 18:02
Muttley	ok, so as a non-lawyer that means you know about UK libel laws	Jul 19 18:02
Lefty	I am a recognized expert in open source licensing and intellectual property law, sonny.	Jul 19 18:03
Lefty	=D	Jul 19 18:03